From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 1 00:35:44 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 22:35:44 -0700 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <20200529155925.437BA13C0347@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200529184312.EA7164E745@mx2.ezwind.net> <1042ba31-ddc1-f4c1-c78e-f477a09a15de@jetnet.ab.ca> <1402167737.558071745.1590783909472.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <70D235D6-F9DF-4A82-8BD2-D702A9D299AF@comcast.net> <0664ff5f-8985-4003-78f9-066df00e5de7@sydex.com> <618aaf9e9841113cf8df628cf9049cf3@sydex.com> Message-ID: <567560aa-7538-09a0-63d6-b88862007234@sydex.com> On 5/31/20 3:13 PM, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: > Most languages will give you some way to shoot yourself in the foot. The > question is how much work do you need to do? In FORTRAN the easiest method > was changing the value of a literal in a subroutine call. It is standard > compliant behavior that goes back to at least FORTRAN IV. One of the reasons that the F90 standards people got very strict about vendor "features" (must not be allowed as the default) was that they were often added as a "good idea" without a lot of thought. I recall one from the CDC 6000 FORTRAN IV extended product that got everyone thinking. Instead of counting the number of characters in a hollerith constant as used in a FORMAT, some clever boots decided that "Hdxxxxxd", where xxxxx is the character string and d is any printable character that forms a delimiter would be a really neat feature. Thus, H*HELLO* has exactly the same meaning as 5HHELLO when used in a FORMAT statement. One day a PSR rolled in with the following question: Given the program segment shown below, what does it do? DIMENSION FORMAT(10) INTEGER HX, X HX = 1 X = 2 100 FORMAT(HX)=(-X) Observe that FORTRAN has no reserved words (that changed in F90) and spaces are ignored unless part of a hollerith constant. Well, it might be an assignment to an element of the array FORMAT--or, it might be a FORMAT statement for an I/O operation (FORTRAN does not disallow unreferenced FORMAT statements). Clearly, if there were an I/O statement (e.g. READ or WRITE) referencing label 100, the meaning was obvious. Otherwise, meh. There was no way to "fix" the problem other than to say "Don't be silly". --Chuck From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Jun 1 01:54:35 2020 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 06:54:35 +0000 Subject: PC Fortran (Was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <20200529155925.437BA13C0347@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200529184312.EA7164E745@mx2.ezwind.net> <1042ba31-ddc1-f4c1-c78e-f477a09a15de@jetnet.ab.ca> <20200530200449.66F854E7EB@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20200601065435.GB15207@lonesome.com> On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 07:50:18PM -0400, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: > Which is even funnier when you realize that the PL/M compiler > was written in Fortran. When all you have is a hammer ... mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Jun 1 01:54:35 2020 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 06:54:35 +0000 Subject: PC Fortran (Was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <20200529155925.437BA13C0347@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200529184312.EA7164E745@mx2.ezwind.net> <1042ba31-ddc1-f4c1-c78e-f477a09a15de@jetnet.ab.ca> <20200530200449.66F854E7EB@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20200601065435.GB15207@lonesome.com> On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 07:50:18PM -0400, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: > Which is even funnier when you realize that the PL/M compiler > was written in Fortran. When all you have is a hammer ... mcl From boris at summitclinic.com Mon Jun 1 02:42:43 2020 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 23:42:43 -0800 Subject: PC Fortran (Was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <20200529155925.437BA13C0347@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200529184312.EA7164E745@mx2.ezwind.net> <1042ba31-ddc1-f4c1-c78e-f477a09a15de@jetnet.ab.ca> <20200530200449.66F854E7EB@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20200601074248.94D52274F5@mx1.ezwind.net> Had to fire up BasiliskII to find out what kind of Fortran I used on Mac in 1988. Turned out it was Absoft Fortran 2.4 and seemed a bit strange as I recall M$ was written on floppies that I got for it. Did a bit of digging on internet today and, surprisingly, Absoft still exists and continues to produce Fortran compilers. What I had in 1988 was a Fortran 77 implementation. Liked the Absoft Fortran, but it definitely wasn't PDP-11 Fortran. Had no trouble porting my old code which primarily did graphics on a printer (also wrote a huge amount of code to use an HP plotter a few years before but didn't have one around then). Looked at some of the Fortran code to create windows, scroll bars and other controls and decided that QuickBasic was easier. Main thing I used Absoft Fortran for was to learn 68000 assembler as could get it to dump out assembler for each statement. Main failing of Absoft Fortan on Mac was that one had to write ones own graphics routines as well as deal with the idiosyncracies of Mac files with data and resource forks. There was a TOOLBOX command but remember doing anything required sitting down with Inside Macintosh books to debug errors. There was a debugger in later versions but at that point had switched to VB for when I needed to quickly create windows and controls. Main failing of Absoft Fortan on Mac was that one had to write ones own graphics routines as well as deal with the idiosyncracies of Mac files with data and resource forks. There was a TOOLBOX command but remember doing anything required sitting down with Inside Macintosh books to debug errors. Also weird that M$ licensed Mac Fortran from Absoft. Looked at Absoft's latest versions of Fortran and whole development system weighs in at 400+ Mb whereas the version I had was about 400 Kb. Boris Gimbarzevsky >Exactly. > >Microsoft Fortran for the PC, written in Pascal, was not related to >Microsoft FORTRAN-80 for CP/M, which was written in 8080 assembly. > >Microsoft Fortran for the PC was not related to Microsoft FORTRAN-80 >for TRS80, which was a derivative of Microsoft FORTRAN-80 for CP/M, >which was written in 8080 assembly. Because the TRS80 was Z80, I >would not be surprised if some of the TRS80 specific code in >Microsoft FORTRAN-80 for TRS80 might have used some Z80. > > >Microsoft Fortran for the PC was written in Pascal. >It was an unrelated product. > >I don't think that any of the Microsoft Fortran products were >related to the Intel FORTRAN-80. Did Microsoft ever develop anything in PL/M? >Did Microsoft ever develop anything for ISIS-II? From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Mon Jun 1 05:12:55 2020 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 12:12:55 +0200 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: <5ED3C795.70209@pico-systems.com> References: <20200529193812.2A3BA18C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5ED17EF1.107@pico-systems.com> <93194349-a54a-2aca-8869-0336366773eb@jwsss.com> <5ED3C795.70209@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: s?n 2020-05-31 klockan 10:04 -0500 skrev Jon Elson via cctalk: > On 05/31/2020 02:06 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 5/30/2020 11:15 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > > On 05/29/2020 02:38 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > Low-level machines did not even have storage protection > > > > keys, and on the /40 and /50 (I think) it was an option, > > > > although I'd guess almost any /50 had it installed. > > Our /50 had it and I have never seen any indication in the > > documentation for the hardware that > > indicated that it was an option. > > > > I don't think that either MVT or MFT would have been very > > stable without it. I certainly spent a lot of time > > studying how to get around it, and am responsible for a > > couple of SPIE patches in the MVT product > > from exploits trying to get into supervisor mode to muck > > with such. > > > Yes, the SPIE call as supplied from IBM was surely the > security hole big enough for 5 ocean liners abreast to steam > right through! Everybody had to patch that, and the patch > was fairly simple. But, it was a clear indication of how > LITTLE IBM thought about security. Of course, they were > thinking about banks where 3 teams reviewed code before it > ever ran on the machine, not universities where kids would > try all sorts of mischief. > > Yes, I know supervisor state isn't tied to the storage > > keys, but that was the way I went to > > try to circumvent the storage keys. > Oh, once you have the P bit set to zero, you can do > anything, such as changing the storage protection key of > your own program. > > Jon I have a school memory of something like that: my school had a PRIME 9955 with PRIMOS 19, well that system had a hole in the handling of serial lines with modems. One municipality employee was logged in from home/work and went home (basically pulled the plug on the pc and went home.) My friend dialed in and got into the employees login session.... I have a memory of the responsible system admin when he speaks with PRIME in Stockholm, well it wasn't the first time this happened... From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 07:53:54 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:53:54 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> <8e7670ac-a886-5ccf-2316-01bae5962760@jbrain.com> <79416050-1847-cec5-050f-e77f10b38bd7@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 at 01:57, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > A Tesla is a rather expensive electric car, a product of Elon Musk. > STARTING (minimal stripped down) at 40,000 pounds, and some models over > 80,000 pounds. > > Sell one of THOSE, and you can buy a car AND a lot of great computer > stuff. Although some early Apples could go for ten times that. Again, international perspective. They aren't _that_ expensive by European standards. A petrol-engined car of comparable performance means a supercar costing 5-10x more, and with far less seats, comfort, luggage capacity, etc. Bear in mind our ICE (internal combustion engine) cars are circa 1000cc for a budget/economy car, ~1500cc for a normal family car and 2000cc for a performance car. A friend of mine in Kansas City MO bought his first car, something small cheap and basic, and it was 2750cc or something -- more than anyone I knew in Britain just about _ever_ owned, except for the 1 guy I knew rich enough to by a Lamborghini. Insane. The running costs alone mean nobody here would drive something like that. (I have no idea about US car prices. I do know about US motorcycle prices, or historical ones: very very cheap. In the 1980s & 1990s, I knew of people who funded motorcycling holidays in the USA by flying over there, buying a used Harley, riding it across the country, crating it up and freighting it back to the UK, then selling it. The profit paid for the entire trip: flights, all food, drink, accommodation, fuel etc., plus the cost of international shipping of a motorcycle.) Factor in that, as I recently pointed out, fuel is 3-4x more expensive here than there, electric cars are more appealing for us. The price savings of not needing fuel or engine maintenance for an electric car make it quite affordable if you do a lot of distance. But what personally interested _me_ is that electric cars engage my geek interest. They are rolling computers. I like motorbikes and like most men I admire sports cars, but I can't afford a sportscar and after a bad motorbike crash, I am too broken to really ride any more. Sensible ICE cars I could afford do not interest me at all. But electric cars do. I don't know why. And to my great surprise, at 52, I have a baby daughter. A car would be useful. A motorbike wouldn't. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 13:34:09 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:34:09 -0400 Subject: Anyone know what an AM000076 (Dip 18) is? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 27S29 Abstract: AM27S28 Am27S28/27S29 Text: Am27S28/ 27S29 4,096-Bit (5 1 2 x 8 ) Bipolar PROM Am27S28/ 27S29 DISTINCTIVE CHARACTERISTICS ? ? ? High Speed Highly reliable, ultra-fast programming Platinum-Silicide fuses High programming yield ? ? ? Low-current PNP inputs High-current open-collector and three-state outputs Fast chip select GENERAL DESCRIPTION The Am27S28/29 (512-words by 8-bits) is a Schottky TTL Programmable Read-Only Memory (PROM). This device is available in both open collector (Am27S28) and three-state (Am27S29) output On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 7:35 PM Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > > Title says all, > > Backing up all the programmable parts in the Apollo DN100 and the CPU board > has a few of these ceramic DIPs with the same Apollo P/N labels as the > Am27S29 and similar programmable parts. > > > Thanks From Kevin at rawfeddogs.net Mon Jun 1 14:20:32 2020 From: Kevin at rawfeddogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:20:32 -0500 Subject: DtCYBER and/or CYBIS Resources Message-ID: <20200601192032.GA15584@RawFedDogs.net> Classic Computer Fans, I tried out the CYBIS release: http://www.Control-Data.info/CybisRelease.html on the DtCYBER emulator when it first came out. I've since forgotten most of what I'd learned. Recently I fired CYBIS back up and started relearning. Does anyone know if any user mailing lists for the DtCYBER emulator and/or the CYBIS release? At the moment I'm trying to find a Linux friendly terminal type that works with NOS's FSE. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 16:55:03 2020 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:55:03 -0700 Subject: Anyone know what an AM000076 (Dip 18) is? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Bob- this is alongside the 27S29 parts- which are labeled as such, but this question is about a part labeled AM000076 (different than the 27S29 which are clearly labeled). Are you saying they're identical? On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 11:34 AM Bob Smith wrote: > 27S29 > > Abstract: AM27S28 Am27S28/27S29 > Text: Am27S28/ 27S29 4,096-Bit (5 1 2 x 8 ) Bipolar PROM Am27S28/ > 27S29 DISTINCTIVE CHARACTERISTICS ? ? ? High Speed Highly reliable, > ultra-fast programming Platinum-Silicide fuses High programming yield > ? ? ? Low-current PNP inputs High-current open-collector and > three-state outputs Fast chip select GENERAL DESCRIPTION The > Am27S28/29 (512-words by 8-bits) is a Schottky TTL Programmable > Read-Only Memory (PROM). This device is available in both open > collector (Am27S28) and three-state (Am27S29) output > > On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 7:35 PM Ian Finder via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Title says all, > > > > Backing up all the programmable parts in the Apollo DN100 and the CPU > board > > has a few of these ceramic DIPs with the same Apollo P/N labels as the > > Am27S29 and similar programmable parts. > > > > > > Thanks > From pb at pbcl.net Mon Jun 1 17:15:47 2020 From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 00:15:47 +0200 Subject: Anyone know what an AM000076 (Dip 18) is? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200601221547.GA26431@pbcl.net> If it's only got 18 pins (per the subject line) then I don't think it can be a 27S29. Based on the label my guess would have been a PAL/GAL of some kind, but I can't immediately think of any standard parts that would have had less than 20 pins there either... p. On Mon, Jun 01, 2020 at 02:55:03PM -0700, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > Thanks Bob- this is alongside the 27S29 parts- which are labeled as such, > but this question is about a part labeled AM000076 (different than the > 27S29 which are clearly labeled). > Are you saying they're identical? > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 11:34 AM Bob Smith wrote: > > > 27S29 > > > > Abstract: AM27S28 Am27S28/27S29 > > Text: Am27S28/ 27S29 4,096-Bit (5 1 2 x 8 ) Bipolar PROM Am27S28/ > > 27S29 DISTINCTIVE CHARACTERISTICS ? ? ? High Speed Highly reliable, > > ultra-fast programming Platinum-Silicide fuses High programming yield > > ? ? ? Low-current PNP inputs High-current open-collector and > > three-state outputs Fast chip select GENERAL DESCRIPTION The > > Am27S28/29 (512-words by 8-bits) is a Schottky TTL Programmable > > Read-Only Memory (PROM). This device is available in both open > > collector (Am27S28) and three-state (Am27S29) output > > > > On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 7:35 PM Ian Finder via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > Title says all, > > > > > > Backing up all the programmable parts in the Apollo DN100 and the CPU > > board > > > has a few of these ceramic DIPs with the same Apollo P/N labels as the > > > Am27S29 and similar programmable parts. > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Jun 1 22:09:19 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 23:09:19 -0400 Subject: ESDI terminator values Message-ID: <5fd24f83-64cf-3dd2-2d09-96a530e62d7c@alembic.crystel.com> Working on restoring this 11/83, I would like to replace the Fujitsu 2284E drive with a slightly larger capacity CDC/Imprimis WREN VI 94246-383 ESDI. I think I have the jumper configurations, however the problem is the disk does not have a terminator pack. Does anyone know what kind of resistor pack was used for the CDC drives? It's probably something very basic and easy to find at Digikey but what? Thanks! Chris (working away here) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 1 23:13:03 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:13:03 -0700 Subject: ESDI terminator values In-Reply-To: <5fd24f83-64cf-3dd2-2d09-96a530e62d7c@alembic.crystel.com> References: <5fd24f83-64cf-3dd2-2d09-96a530e62d7c@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <207f445f-479d-c7f6-eae3-e1c829e7c761@sydex.com> ESDI used by CDC uses 150 ohms to +Vcc as termination on the control cable. Signal cables are radial, so they always have termination. See: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/wren/77738212D_94166_Wren_III_ESDI_Product_Specification_Aug87.pdf PDF Page 37 Also, generally, the CDC ESDI spec is here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/wren/77738076D2_CDC_ESDI_Specification_Nov84.pdf --Chuck On 6/1/20 8:09 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Working on restoring this 11/83, I would like to replace the Fujitsu > 2284E drive with a slightly larger capacity CDC/Imprimis WREN VI > 94246-383 ESDI. I think I have the jumper configurations, however the > problem is the disk does not have a terminator pack. > > Does anyone know what kind of resistor pack was used for the CDC drives? > It's probably something very basic and easy to find at Digikey but what? > > Thanks! > Chris > (working away here) From kspt.tor at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 01:40:10 2020 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 08:40:10 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <20200529155925.437BA13C0347@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200529184312.EA7164E745@mx2.ezwind.net> <1042ba31-ddc1-f4c1-c78e-f477a09a15de@jetnet.ab.ca> <1402167737.558071745.1590783909472.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <70D235D6-F9DF-4A82-8BD2-D702A9D299AF@comcast.net> <0664ff5f-8985-4003-78f9-066df00e5de7@sydex.com> <618aaf9e9841113cf8df628cf9049cf3@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 at 00:14, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: > C > C CHANGE THE VALUE OF 4 > C > > CALL INC(4) > WRITE (*, 30) 4 > 30 FORMAT ('2+2=',I4) > END > > SUBROUTINE INC(I) > I = I + 1 > END > > -------- OUTPUT > 2+2= 5 I had no idea, and I wrote a lot of FORTRAN for a few years. I just tested the above with the Fortran-77 compiler for my ND-100 mini, and yes, it prints 2+2= 5 From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue Jun 2 04:38:47 2020 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 11:38:47 +0200 Subject: intellec MDS80 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20200530202833.sdulnd6qqbtbiqd6@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20200602093846.ovtsfyptszk67sq4@lug-owl.de> On Sun, 2020-05-31 19:17:33 +0000, dwight via cctalk wrote: > That is a nice setup. With an Ice85 that is really nice. It will > clearly sell for a good price. Primarily for a good home. We haven't worked with it (maybe Michael did, ages ago, I'm not sure about that) and we probably won't ever need it, so it should go to a person who can make better use of it. MfG, JBG -- From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue Jun 2 04:38:47 2020 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 11:38:47 +0200 Subject: intellec MDS80 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20200530202833.sdulnd6qqbtbiqd6@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20200602093846.ovtsfyptszk67sq4@lug-owl.de> On Sun, 2020-05-31 19:17:33 +0000, dwight via cctalk wrote: > That is a nice setup. With an Ice85 that is really nice. It will > clearly sell for a good price. Primarily for a good home. We haven't worked with it (maybe Michael did, ages ago, I'm not sure about that) and we probably won't ever need it, so it should go to a person who can make better use of it. MfG, JBG -- From turing at shaw.ca Tue Jun 2 06:46:46 2020 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 05:46:46 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <70D235D6-F9DF-4A82-8BD2-D702A9D299AF@comcast.net> <0664ff5f-8985-4003-78f9-066df00e5de7@sydex.com> <618aaf9e9841113cf8df628cf9049cf3@sydex.com> Message-ID: <209344644.581237846.1591098406937.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Yes, and on some machines, like the IBM 1800, small numeric constants are stored in a common location, to reduce the size of executable images. So, once you've changed 4 to 5, it means that all programs that get loaded will now use 5 when they meant 4. Usually the generated code has a way to refer to zero without using the common constant area, but not numbers like 1 or 2, so setting 1 or 2 to zero will have 'interesting' effects. Especially if the machine is controlling heavy equipment. [I bear witness to the result - been there, did that...] From: "cctalk" To: "cctalk" Sent: Monday, June 1, 2020 11:40:10 PM Subject: Re: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 at 00:14, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: > C > C CHANGE THE VALUE OF 4 > C > > CALL INC(4) > WRITE (*, 30) 4 > 30 FORMAT ('2+2=',I4) > END > > SUBROUTINE INC(I) > I = I + 1 > END > > -------- OUTPUT > 2+2= 5 I had no idea, and I wrote a lot of FORTRAN for a few years. I just tested the above with the Fortran-77 compiler for my ND-100 mini, and yes, it prints 2+2= 5 From wmachacek1 at comcast.net Tue Jun 2 12:51:54 2020 From: wmachacek1 at comcast.net (William Machacek) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 11:51:54 -0600 Subject: AlphaMicro CPU Chip Message-ID: <002101d63906$84978d80$8dc6a880$@comcast.net> Hi, I've recently come across a CPU chip marked "AlphaMicro" . It has a date stamp of 8531 and appears to be of the 386 variety (1 5/8 x 1 5/8). It doesn't appear to be from Alpha MicroSystems. Anyone know who may be the maker of this chip? I can send a picture for those who'd like to see what it looks like. From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Tue Jun 2 17:05:27 2020 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 17:05:27 -0500 Subject: The X-Cap-Files Message-ID: Today I was working on a new-to-me VT240 which hadn't been powered up in a long time (possibly 10 years). Hooked it up to an old 9" B&W CCTV monitor and everything was running fine for 20 minutes or so - when suddenly an astonishing amount of acrid whitish-gray smoke started pouring from the vents =8^ O So I yanked the power cord out and took the case off. Sure enough, one if not both of the 0.1 uF X-caps on the line filter had cracked open and my nose confirmed that was the source of the stench. Fortunately there is no damage to the PC board or surrounding components - even the caps don't look toasted, just split. Good thing I was sitting right there when they failed and could turn the power off immediately. I've read here and elsewhere about the spectacular failure modes of these caps, sometimes flames, but this is the first time I ever experienced it first hand. Maybe it's time for a look inside my VT220? ;) -Charles From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 2 17:15:41 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 22:15:41 +0000 Subject: intellec MDS80 on eBay In-Reply-To: <339715408.320570.1590942500850@mail.yahoo.com> References: <339715408.320570.1590942500850.ref@mail.yahoo.com>, <339715408.320570.1590942500850@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The drives don't look like a standard box but are likely fine as it has the two card controller on the card cage. The drives are still likely SA800s. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2020 9:28 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: intellec MDS80 on eBay I assume this are not the standard Intel floppy drives? On Sunday, May 31, 2020 Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctech wrote: Hi! I just wanted to drop an email that there's a MDS 80 on eBay: https://www.ebay.de/itm/333612000595 (Please note: The seller, Michael, is a friend of mine, and a former coworker.) Thanks, Jan-Benedict -- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 2 17:22:33 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 22:22:33 +0000 Subject: intellec MDS80 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <339715408.320570.1590942500850.ref@mail.yahoo.com>, <339715408.320570.1590942500850@mail.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: I take it back, there are not the typical two card intel disk controller. I don't see what is the controller. I was the ribbon cable but realize now that was the ICE interface. I suspect the card near the bottom of the picture is the controller. It likely still had ISIS software to run the ICE boards but it likely wasn't a compatible disk controller. They'd need to write a BIOS for it as I doubt there is any after market disk controllers that match the original Intel boards. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 3:15 PM To: ED SHARPE ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: intellec MDS80 on eBay The drives don't look like a standard box but are likely fine as it has the two card controller on the card cage. The drives are still likely SA800s. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2020 9:28 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: intellec MDS80 on eBay I assume this are not the standard Intel floppy drives? On Sunday, May 31, 2020 Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctech wrote: Hi! I just wanted to drop an email that there's a MDS 80 on eBay: https://www.ebay.de/itm/333612000595 (Please note: The seller, Michael, is a friend of mine, and a former coworker.) Thanks, Jan-Benedict -- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 2 17:27:44 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 22:27:44 +0000 Subject: The X-Cap-Files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These are directly on the power leads. I generally just cut them off. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Charles via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 3:05 PM To: cctalk digest ; Jon Elson Subject: The X-Cap-Files Today I was working on a new-to-me VT240 which hadn't been powered up in a long time (possibly 10 years). Hooked it up to an old 9" B&W CCTV monitor and everything was running fine for 20 minutes or so - when suddenly an astonishing amount of acrid whitish-gray smoke started pouring from the vents =8^ O So I yanked the power cord out and took the case off. Sure enough, one if not both of the 0.1 uF X-caps on the line filter had cracked open and my nose confirmed that was the source of the stench. Fortunately there is no damage to the PC board or surrounding components - even the caps don't look toasted, just split. Good thing I was sitting right there when they failed and could turn the power off immediately. I've read here and elsewhere about the spectacular failure modes of these caps, sometimes flames, but this is the first time I ever experienced it first hand. Maybe it's time for a look inside my VT220? ;) -Charles From dmabry at mich.com Tue Jun 2 17:55:43 2020 From: dmabry at mich.com (Mich.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 18:55:43 -0400 Subject: intellec MDS80 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49141BF8-F8E5-4A9E-93E9-E1689454EB0F@mich.com> Sent from my iPhone. > On Jun 2, 2020, at 6:22 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > ?I take it back, there are not the typical two card intel disk controller. I don't see what is the controller. I was the ribbon cable but realize now that was the ICE interface. > I suspect the card near the bottom of the picture is the controller. It likely still had ISIS software to run the ICE boards but it likely wasn't a compatible disk controller. They'd need to write a BIOS for it as I doubt there is any after market disk controllers that match the original Intel boards. > Dwight > It looks to me like it IS a standard Intel diskette controller board set. It has the more unusual cable that was meant for the Series II that was meant to upgrade the internal disk drive from single density to double density. See the unused edge connector? It has the sticker that came with that upgrade kit that says internal drive upgraded to double density on the front of the chassis. The Intel two-board set is in the photo just below the ICE boards. It is dark but you can see there are two boards because of the board ejectors. Follow the cable off one of those boards and it goes to that unused edge connector. On another topic, not in this system, there WAS a third party controller that emulated the Intel board set and required no BIOS modification. Zendex was the manufacturer. I never used one but it sounded interesting. It was only one board. Dave > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of dwight via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 3:15 PM > To: ED SHARPE ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: intellec MDS80 on eBay > > The drives don't look like a standard box but are likely fine as it has the two card controller on the card cage. > The drives are still likely SA800s. > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2020 9:28 AM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: intellec MDS80 on eBay > > > I assume this are not the standard Intel floppy drives? > On Sunday, May 31, 2020 Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctech wrote: > Hi! > > I just wanted to drop an email that there's a MDS 80 on eBay: > > https://www.ebay.de/itm/333612000595 > > (Please note: The seller, Michael, is a friend of mine, and a former > coworker.) > > Thanks, > Jan-Benedict > > -- From trash80 at internode.on.net Tue Jun 2 18:15:05 2020 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 23:15:05 +0000 Subject: BYTE Magazines Message-ID: I know the response to this might be quite subjective and depends on your particular interests. Do BYTE magazines have any collectability (maybe even from a historical perspective or something else)? I have to make some decisions about space (the perennial problem for a collector of course) and I have quite a few of these taking up a few shelves. Thank you. Kevin Parker From nw.johnson at ieee.org Tue Jun 2 18:18:31 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 19:18:31 -0400 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <399287de-5e27-5552-3c8a-f2b39585888d@ieee.org> Actually, yes.? I had the first two years of them bound - the first issue sold to me personally by Wayne Green, and let them go for a song .? A couple of years later each bound edition was advertised for $200 - that was in 1995 prices! No idea wha tthey woul dbe worth now. cheers, NIgel On 02/06/2020 19:15, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > I know the response to this might be quite subjective and depends on > your particular interests. > > Do BYTE magazines have any collectability (maybe even from a > historical perspective or something else)? > > I have to make some decisions about space (the perennial problem for a > collector of course) and I have quite a few of these taking up a few > shelves. > > Thank you. > > > Kevin Parker > > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Jun 2 18:24:12 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 23:24:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: intellec MDS80 on eBay In-Reply-To: <49141BF8-F8E5-4A9E-93E9-E1689454EB0F@mich.com> References: <49141BF8-F8E5-4A9E-93E9-E1689454EB0F@mich.com> Message-ID: <890715113.1229523.1591140252787@mail.yahoo.com> Our system at SMECC? has? the? big Blue orig. drives... no idea what controller is inside.. cpu box and? drive look? AS NEW? but? we? have never applied power. If anyone? has a set? of? Manuals? for? this? system and? drives? please let? us? know. A? dream? would be? to buy? a? Intelect 4? system also! Ed Sharpe archivist? for SMECC In a message dated 6/2/2020 3:55:59 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Sent from my iPhone. > On Jun 2, 2020, at 6:22 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > I take it back, there are not the typical two card intel disk controller. I don't see what is the controller. I was the ribbon cable but realize now that was the ICE interface. > I suspect the card near the bottom of the picture is the controller. It likely still had ISIS software to run the ICE boards but it likely wasn't a compatible disk controller. They'd need to write a BIOS for it as I doubt there is any after market disk controllers that match the original Intel boards. > Dwight > It looks to me like it IS a standard Intel diskette controller board set. It has the more unusual cable that was meant for the Series II that was meant to upgrade the internal disk drive from single density to double density. See the unused edge connector? It has the sticker that came with that upgrade kit that says internal drive upgraded to double density on the front of the chassis. The Intel two-board set is in the photo just below the ICE boards. It is dark but you can see there are two boards because of the board ejectors. Follow the cable off one of those boards and it goes to that unused edge connector. On another topic, not in this system, there WAS a third party controller that emulated the Intel board set and required no BIOS modification. Zendex was the manufacturer. I never used one but it sounded interesting. It was only one board. Dave > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of dwight via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 3:15 PM > To: ED SHARPE ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: intellec MDS80 on eBay > > The drives don't look like a standard box but are likely fine as it has the two card controller on the card cage. > The drives are still likely SA800s. > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2020 9:28 AM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: intellec MDS80 on eBay > > > I assume this are not the standard Intel floppy drives? > On Sunday, May 31, 2020 Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctech wrote: > Hi! > > I just wanted to drop an email that there's a MDS 80 on eBay: > >? ? https://www.ebay.de/itm/333612000595 > > (Please note: The seller, Michael, is a friend of mine, and a former > coworker.) > > Thanks, >? Jan-Benedict > > -- From tomas at basun.net Tue Jun 2 18:47:32 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2020 01:47:32 +0200 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <399287de-5e27-5552-3c8a-f2b39585888d@ieee.org> References: <399287de-5e27-5552-3c8a-f2b39585888d@ieee.org> Message-ID: <874krt81yj.wl-tomas@basun.net> > On 02/06/2020 19:15, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > > Do BYTE magazines have any collectability (maybe even from a > > historical perspective or something else)? On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 01:18:31 +0200, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Actually, yes. Quite a few are available on archive.org, but I would guess the hardcopies are valuable also (depending on condition etc). /Tomas From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 22:35:24 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 23:35:24 -0400 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 7:15 PM Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > Do BYTE magazines have any collectability (maybe even from a historical > perspective or something else)? I know certain ones are sought after based on specific contributors or specific machines gracing the cover (Amiga, Apple, etc.) I'd say "value" fluctuates wildly and is definitely subjective. In my personal case, I'm fond of the issues before the PC took over because I started reading it in the early 80s and even though I didn't have a CP/M machine, I still read those articles with fascination (I devoured the hardware articles by Steve Ciarcia and others and anything for the PET or could be adapted to the PET). Specific ones, like the launch of the Amiga 3000 aside, I am not as interested in anything past the end of the 80s. Other people will have completely different opinions based on what content tickles them. Except for, say, the first few issues, it's not like they aren't somewhat abundant - issues were preserved by a lot of people. I am on my second set because I lost most of my originals in a flood 25 years ago. I did a rescue and was asked if I wanted 4 bankers boxes of Byte Magazines going back to the late 70s. How could I resist. As mentioned, many of them have been digitized and I do reference the PDFs a lot, but I still like the paper and being able to flop open to an ad or schematic and leave it open for reference. > I have to make some decisions about space (the perennial problem for a > collector of course) and I have quite a few of these taking up a few > shelves. Sure. That's always the challenge. I wish I had a better place for mine, but I'll have to rearrange a few things first. -ethan From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Jun 3 01:19:20 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 06:19:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> My? favorite BYTE? ?issue? had? the HP 150 on the? cover.? It? changed? the? entire? direction of? a segment of my business. My very first issues? of BYTE and Kilobaud were? a? gift from Ray Morrison of? Ill. Bell Teletype? fame In today's world at the SMECC museum project? BYTE and KILOBAUD and? other? serve? as a reference? source and? we? have bound? sets of? them? ?and? some? ?loose? ones that? are easier to put in a scanner . The? bound issues are? better? to? ?flip? through.? They are? also? great? to scan out of? and a certain amount of up sizing? can be? done? to imagery to be integrated into displays Ed#? In a message dated 6/2/2020 8:35:43 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 7:15 PM Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > Do BYTE magazines have any collectability (maybe even from a historical > perspective or something else)? I know certain ones are sought after based on specific contributors or specific machines gracing the cover (Amiga, Apple, etc.)? I'd say "value" fluctuates wildly and is definitely subjective. In my personal case, I'm fond of the issues before the PC took over because I started reading it in the early 80s and even though I didn't have a CP/M machine, I still read those articles with fascination (I devoured the hardware articles by Steve Ciarcia and others and anything for the PET or could be adapted to the PET).? Specific ones, like the launch of the Amiga 3000 aside, I am not as interested in anything past the end of the 80s. Other people will have completely different opinions based on what content tickles them. Except for, say, the first few issues, it's not like they aren't somewhat abundant - issues were preserved by a lot of people.? I am on my second set because I lost most of my originals in a flood 25 years ago.? I did a rescue and was asked if I wanted 4 bankers boxes of Byte Magazines going back to the late 70s.? How could I resist. As mentioned, many of them have been digitized and I do reference the PDFs a lot, but I still like the paper and being able to flop open to an ad or schematic and leave it open for reference. > I have to make some decisions about space (the perennial problem for a > collector of course) and I have quite a few of these taking up a few > shelves. Sure.? That's always the challenge.? I wish I had a better place for mine, but I'll have to rearrange a few things first. -ethan From cctalk at emailtoilet.com Wed Jun 3 13:04:33 2020 From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com (cctalk at emailtoilet.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 11:04:33 -0700 Subject: BYTE Magazines Message-ID: <007f01d639d1$6f74ec10$4e5ec430$@emailtoilet.com> Computer Museum of America might be interested. They have a Byte wall. http://www.myimagecollection.com/webpics/cmoabyte.jpg Contact Lonnie Mimms lonnie at mimms.com to see if he has any interest. Donald From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 14:22:16 2020 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 14:22:16 -0500 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm not quickly finding it but weren't there some magazines missing or has it been decided all are scanned and it usable quality? I see one list https://vintageapple.org/byte/ and archive.org also has a collection but they weren't in order in my browser. On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 1:19 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > My favorite BYTE issue had the HP 150 on the cover. It changed > the entire direction of a segment of my business. > My very first issues of BYTE and Kilobaud were a gift from Ray Morrison > of Ill. Bell Teletype fame > In today's world at the SMECC museum project BYTE and KILOBAUD and > other serve as a reference source and we have bound sets of them > and some loose ones that are easier to put in a scanner . The bound > issues are better to flip through. They are also great to scan out > of and a certain amount of up sizing can be done to imagery to be > integrated into displays > Ed# > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 6/2/2020 8:35:43 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 7:15 PM Kevin Parker via cctalk > wrote: > > Do BYTE magazines have any collectability (maybe even from a historical > > perspective or something else)? > > I know certain ones are sought after based on specific contributors or > specific machines gracing the cover (Amiga, Apple, etc.) I'd say > "value" fluctuates wildly and is definitely subjective. > > In my personal case, I'm fond of the issues before the PC took over > because I started reading it in the early 80s and even though I didn't > have a CP/M machine, I still read those articles with fascination (I > devoured the hardware articles by Steve Ciarcia and others and > anything for the PET or could be adapted to the PET). Specific ones, > like the launch of the Amiga 3000 aside, I am not as interested in > anything past the end of the 80s. > > Other people will have completely different opinions based on what > content tickles them. > > Except for, say, the first few issues, it's not like they aren't > somewhat abundant - issues were preserved by a lot of people. I am on > my second set because I lost most of my originals in a flood 25 years > ago. I did a rescue and was asked if I wanted 4 bankers boxes of > Byte Magazines going back to the late 70s. How could I resist. > > As mentioned, many of them have been digitized and I do reference the > PDFs a lot, but I still like the paper and being able to flop open to > an ad or schematic and leave it open for reference. > > > I have to make some decisions about space (the perennial problem for a > > collector of course) and I have quite a few of these taking up a few > > shelves. > > Sure. That's always the challenge. I wish I had a better place for > mine, but I'll have to rearrange a few things first. > > -ethan > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 14:22:52 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 15:22:52 -0400 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <007f01d639d1$6f74ec10$4e5ec430$@emailtoilet.com> References: <007f01d639d1$6f74ec10$4e5ec430$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: Looks cool, may already have them though, eh? On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:04 PM Donald via cctalk wrote: > Computer Museum of America might be interested. They have a Byte wall. > > http://www.myimagecollection.com/webpics/cmoabyte.jpg > > > > Contact Lonnie Mimms lonnie at mimms.com to see if he has any interest. > > > > Donald > > > > From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Wed Jun 3 14:30:31 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 14:30:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: References: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> > On June 3, 2020 at 2:22 PM John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > I'm not quickly finding it but weren't there some magazines missing or hasit been decided all are scanned and it usable quality? I see one listhttps://vintageapple.org/byte/ and archive.org also has a collection butthey weren't in order in my browser. > >>>> The ones at vintageapple.org are almost complete. Some of the scans are bad last time I checked (such as Oct 86 I think.) But that has almost all of them. Will From t.gardner at computer.org Wed Jun 3 16:46:38 2020 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 14:46:38 -0700 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ed01d639f0$76b50f40$641f2dc0$@computer.org> My understanding is that the Computer History Museum has a complete bound set - maybe Al can confirm And there is likely a fairly complete set at Stanford's GSB periodicals collection. Other computer or technical history museums might want a fairly complete set; e.g., Charles Babbage Institute, and u would have to check them one by one. Tom -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Parker [mailto:trash80 at internode.on.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2020 4:15 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: BYTE Magazines I know the response to this might be quite subjective and depends on your particular interests. Do BYTE magazines have any collectability (maybe even from a historical perspective or something else)? I have to make some decisions about space (the perennial problem for a collector of course) and I have quite a few of these taking up a few shelves. Thank you. Kevin Parker From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Wed Jun 3 17:29:33 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 17:29:33 -0500 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> References: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <819289bb-e41a-d853-ae32-fa502b2ce7ec@thereinhardts.org> On 6/3/2020 2:30 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >> On June 3, 2020 at 2:22 PM John Herron via cctalk wrote: >> >> I'm not quickly finding it but weren't there some magazines missing or hasit been decided all are scanned and it usable quality? I see one listhttps://vintageapple.org/byte/ and archive.org also has a collection butthey weren't in order in my browser. > The ones at vintageapple.org are almost complete. Some of the scans are bad last time I checked (such as Oct 86 I think.) But that has almost all of them. > > Will Apparently they are complete. *2/11/19*: Last 8 issues of Byte Magazine added; the Byte archive is now complete. Many thanks to The National Museum of Computing in Canada for providing 4 of the mising issues. (Please consider donating to them to support computer history.) Lots of good Mac stuff there I didn't know about.? Looks like I can offload my 10 boxes of Mac System 6 and System 7 programming manuals and books to someone that wants hardcopy.? Everything I have is in PDF on that site now. -- John H. Reinhardt From rshepprd at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 23:38:19 2020 From: rshepprd at gmail.com (Richard Sheppard) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 00:38:19 -0400 Subject: BYTE Magazines Message-ID: <5ed87abc.1c69fb81.6c39f.4315@mx.google.com> That photo is the perfect opportunity to mention the wonderful cover art by Robert Tinney. Richard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From boris at summitclinic.com Thu Jun 4 00:45:48 2020 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2020 21:45:48 -0800 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> References: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <20200604054557.F380D27535@mx1.ezwind.net> Will, thanks for that link to Mac books. My Inside MacIntosh books suffered water damage when had a flood in room they were stored and nice to have information as a pdf files. Prefer actual books with my annotations, but now just use virtual Mac running under BasiliskII. Judge how fast computers can become when, under BasiliskII run a virtual MacIIvx in which run a DOS emulation so can run a C64 emulation under DOS considerably faster than a physical C64. Had an extensive collection of Byte magazines that unfortunately had to go. Main thing I liked in Byte was Steve Ciarcia's column and still have all my Circuit Cellar magazines and bought a backup flashdrive with all Circuit cellar content from start. Seems to be the way to go with magazines as much easier for me to find a particular Circuit Cellar article on the flash drive than trying to remember in which room/box that particular issue might be located. Boris Gimbarzevsky > > On June 3, 2020 at 2:22 PM John Herron via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I'm not quickly finding it but weren't there some magazines > missing or hasit been decided all are scanned and it usable > quality? I see one listhttps://vintageapple.org/byte/ and > archive.org also has a collection butthey weren't in order in my browser. > > >>>> > >The ones at vintageapple.org are almost complete. Some of the scans >are bad last time I checked (such as Oct 86 I think.) But that has >almost all of them. > >Will From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Thu Jun 4 03:51:27 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 03:51:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <819289bb-e41a-d853-ae32-fa502b2ce7ec@thereinhardts.org> References: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> <819289bb-e41a-d853-ae32-fa502b2ce7ec@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <1218454625.95337.1591260687746@email.ionos.com> > On June 3, 2020 at 5:29 PM "John H. Reinhardt via cctech" wrote: > > > > The ones at vintageapple.org are almost complete. Some of the scans are bad last time I checked (such as Oct 86 I think.) But that has almost all of them.> WillApparently they are complete. > > > --John H. Reinhardt does that mean you can download and view the Oct 86 "Inside the IBM PC" issue? https://vintageapple.org/byte/pdf/198610_Byte_Magazine_Vol_11-11_Inside_the_IBM_PC.pdf I can't. There are several others with the same problem. From tomas at basun.net Thu Jun 4 04:00:10 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 11:00:10 +0200 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <1218454625.95337.1591260687746@email.ionos.com> References: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> <819289bb-e41a-d853-ae32-fa502b2ce7ec@thereinhardts.org> <1218454625.95337.1591260687746@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <87tuzr4351.wl-tomas@basun.net> On Thu, 04 Jun 2020 10:51:27 +0200, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > does that mean you can download and view the Oct 86 "Inside the IBM PC" issue? The file seems broken on the "apple" site but this one works: https://ia803009.us.archive.org/13/items/eu_BYTE-1986-fall-3-IBM_special_OCR/BYTE-1986-fall-3-IBM_special_OCR.pdf /Tomas From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Jun 4 04:21:22 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:21:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <87tuzr4351.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> <819289bb-e41a-d853-ae32-fa502b2ce7ec@thereinhardts.org> <1218454625.95337.1591260687746@email.ionos.com> <87tuzr4351.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <1536140729.1762630.1591262482398@mail.yahoo.com> Looking though? some of? these BYTE sites your mileage varies The apple one think had? the? hp 150 issue with a nasty glare on it alas...? Be sure you check several sites? to? get the best you can? get.All depends on what you are seeking too.... something? to go in a display or just read an article. Ed# In a message dated 6/4/2020 2:00:20 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On Thu, 04 Jun 2020 10:51:27 +0200, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > does that mean you can download and view the Oct 86 "Inside the IBM PC" issue? The file seems broken on the "apple" site but this one works: https://ia803009.us.archive.org/13/items/eu_BYTE-1986-fall-3-IBM_special_OCR/BYTE-1986-fall-3-IBM_special_OCR.pdf /Tomas From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 07:57:03 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 14:57:03 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <81F8916A-B9D1-4A10-988B-F6D8CDE3B535@verizon.net> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> <81F8916A-B9D1-4A10-988B-F6D8CDE3B535@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 03:52, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > > You know, reading about this made me dig out the info I had on the Character Oriented Windows ("COW") library. I was reading some of the docs and it occurred to me that it operated much like Windows (probably Windows 1), but what I couldn't find were any "sample" programs or tools to build a program based on the COW library. Does anyone have/know of a sample program that used the library? Was there an SDK for it or was it used only for Microsoft's products? > > Just looking for something new/interesting to learn about. Thanks! Relevant to your interests, as they say: ? Hacking the Planet (with Notcurses) A Guide to TUIs and Character Graphics Nick Black, Consulting Scientist nickblack at linux.com March 24, 2020 ? https://nick-black.com/htp-notcurses.pdf -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jun 4 09:56:44 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:56:44 -0500 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <1218454625.95337.1591260687746@email.ionos.com> References: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> <819289bb-e41a-d853-ae32-fa502b2ce7ec@thereinhardts.org> <1218454625.95337.1591260687746@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <002f01d63a80$5d7630a0$186291e0$@com> When I try, it says error, failed to download document. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Will Cooke via cctalk Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2020 3:51 AM To: Will Cooke via cctalk Subject: Re: BYTE Magazines > On June 3, 2020 at 5:29 PM "John H. Reinhardt via cctech" wrote: > > > > The ones at vintageapple.org are almost complete. Some of the scans are bad last time I checked (such as Oct 86 I think.) But that has almost all of them.> WillApparently they are complete. > > > --John H. Reinhardt does that mean you can download and view the Oct 86 "Inside the IBM PC" issue? https://vintageapple.org/byte/pdf/198610_Byte_Magazine_Vol_11-11_Inside_the_IBM_PC.pdf I can't. There are several others with the same problem. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 10:09:23 2020 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:09:23 +0200 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <002f01d63a80$5d7630a0$186291e0$@com> References: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> <819289bb-e41a-d853-ae32-fa502b2ce7ec@thereinhardts.org> <1218454625.95337.1591260687746@email.ionos.com> <002f01d63a80$5d7630a0$186291e0$@com> Message-ID: > https://vintageapple.org/byte/pdf/198610_Byte_Magazine_Vol_11-11_Inside_the_IBM_PC.pdf That one, plus 198806_Byte_Magazine_Vol_13-06_New_Benchmarks_Ultra_High-speed_Modems.pdf and 198905_Byte_Magazine_Vol_14-05_Unix_CAD_and_Technology_Breakthroughs.pdf are corrupted on the vintageapple.org web site (shows up as 'data' instead of "PDF document" if you do a "file" on them). If there are others I don't know, but at least the rest are detected as PDF. Good PDF copies of the three can be found at archive.org though. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Jun 4 10:42:09 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:42:09 -0700 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: References: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> <819289bb-e41a-d853-ae32-fa502b2ce7ec@thereinhardts.org> <1218454625.95337.1591260687746@email.ionos.com> <002f01d63a80$5d7630a0$186291e0$@com> Message-ID: <156138ae-a691-6cb2-6393-7061d69f019e@jwsss.com> On 6/4/2020 8:09 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote: > > Good PDF copies of the three can be found at archive.org though. > There are three sets of scans of some editions. I'm looking for a photographic ad placed by ACP (Advanced Computer Products).? It's supposed to be back cover or inside back cover (I've also looked inside the front). There's an ad similar to the Jameco, Jade, etc with all the components and crap, but for a while, they took out a second ad. I've looked at a lot of these again, looking for the ad. The photo is of the ACP Swapmeet going full tilt.? If you look at the person in the very center looking at the camera, that's me. Would love a copy. Photo was by Dave Freeman, who is still a fantastic photographer. I've checked with Tom and Dave Freeman, and they remember it, but not the when. I guessed it was around the time of the fight with Apple over mail order sales (which resulted in a lawsuit, which ACP lost).? They did move to a dual full page ad, a couple pages inside the back, which is a premium spot, but I didn't find any second ad or anything on the back cover. thanks Jim From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 10:50:08 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:50:08 -0400 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <156138ae-a691-6cb2-6393-7061d69f019e@jwsss.com> References: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> <819289bb-e41a-d853-ae32-fa502b2ce7ec@thereinhardts.org> <1218454625.95337.1591260687746@email.ionos.com> <002f01d63a80$5d7630a0$186291e0$@com> <156138ae-a691-6cb2-6393-7061d69f019e@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 11:42 AM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 6/4/2020 8:09 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote: > > > > Good PDF copies of the three can be found at archive.org though. > > > There are three sets of scans of some editions. > > I'm looking for a photographic ad placed by ACP (Advanced Computer > Products). It's supposed to be back cover or inside back cover (I've > also looked inside the front). > > There's an ad similar to the Jameco, Jade, etc with all the components > and crap, but for a while, they took out a second ad. > > I've looked at a lot of these again, looking for the ad. > > The photo is of the ACP Swapmeet going full tilt. If you look at the > person in the very center looking at the camera, that's me. Would love a > copy. > > Photo was by Dave Freeman, who is still a fantastic photographer. > > I've checked with Tom and Dave Freeman, and they remember it, but not > the when. > > I guessed it was around the time of the fight with Apple over mail order > sales (which resulted in a lawsuit, which ACP lost). They did move to a > dual full page ad, a couple pages inside the back, which is a premium > spot, but I didn't find any second ad or anything on the back cover. > > thanks > Jim > I have a complete set of the Byte magazines (and Kilobaud, Dr. Dobbs, Radio Electronics, Micro, 6502 Journal...), if you can't find what you're looking for online I can scan it for you, but I need to know the year/volume/page. Bill Degnan From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jun 4 11:10:54 2020 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:10:54 -0700 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <007f01d639d1$6f74ec10$4e5ec430$@emailtoilet.com> References: <007f01d639d1$6f74ec10$4e5ec430$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: <20200604091054.097c5b5b@asrock> On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 11:04:33 -0700 Donald via cctalk wrote: > Computer Museum of America might be interested. They have a Byte wall. > > http://www.myimagecollection.com/webpics/cmoabyte.jpg Almost all of my vintage computer collection went to the CMoA (Computer Museum of America - two 26' trucks worth). I offered them a complete set of Byte - but they were not interested. There are a LOT of complete sets in the hands of collectors and libraries. Best, Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West Inc. https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Thu Jun 4 12:24:24 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 12:24:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <002f01d63a80$5d7630a0$186291e0$@com> References: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> <819289bb-e41a-d853-ae32-fa502b2ce7ec@thereinhardts.org> <1218454625.95337.1591260687746@email.ionos.com> <002f01d63a80$5d7630a0$186291e0$@com> Message-ID: <310469402.52341.1591291464561@email.ionos.com> > On June 4, 2020 at 9:56 AM Electronics Plus wrote: > > When I try, it says error, failed to download document. That is what I get on that file as well as several others. Someone mentioned most or all of them. The scans that are there are quite good. I emailed the maintainer(s) of that site to let them know twice, but never got any response. I'm not complaining, just stating the fact. I VERY much appreciate the work they put into that. My point was that I am not aware of any single place that has ALL Byte issues. It would be really nice if there was. Will From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Jun 4 20:16:28 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:16:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <20200604091054.097c5b5b@asrock> References: <007f01d639d1$6f74ec10$4e5ec430$@emailtoilet.com> <20200604091054.097c5b5b@asrock> Message-ID: <259156460.1196505.1591319788446@mail.yahoo.com> Makes? me? wish? for a larger building!? Very nice Wall! In a message dated 6/4/2020 9:11:33 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > Computer Museum of America might be interested.? They have a Byte wall. > > http://www.myimagecollection.com/webpics/cmoabyte.jpg From boris at summitclinic.com Thu Jun 4 16:46:32 2020 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 13:46:32 -0800 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <002f01d63a80$5d7630a0$186291e0$@com> References: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> <819289bb-e41a-d853-ae32-fa502b2ce7ec@thereinhardts.org> <1218454625.95337.1591260687746@email.ionos.com> <002f01d63a80$5d7630a0$186291e0$@com> Message-ID: <20200604214638.8A712276FC@mx1.ezwind.net> Just had a look at file in hex editor and first &HDFFFFF bytes are 0 and then appears to be some type of image format after that. Suggests that parts recoverable. Boris Gimbarzevsky >When I try, it says error, failed to download document. > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >Will Cooke via cctalk >Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2020 3:51 AM >To: Will Cooke via cctalk >Subject: Re: BYTE Magazines > > > On June 3, 2020 at 5:29 PM "John H. Reinhardt via cctech" > wrote: > > > > > > > The ones at vintageapple.org are almost complete. Some of the > scans are bad last time I checked (such as Oct 86 I think.) But > that has almost all of them.> WillApparently they are complete. > > > > > > --John H. Reinhardt > > >does that mean you can download and view the Oct 86 "Inside the IBM PC" issue? > > >https://vintageapple.org/byte/pdf/198610_Byte_Magazine_Vol_11-11_Inside_the_IBM_PC.pdf > > >I can't. There are several others with the same problem. > > >-- >This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Jun 4 18:07:41 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 16:07:41 -0700 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <20200604214638.8A712276FC@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> <819289bb-e41a-d853-ae32-fa502b2ce7ec@thereinhardts.org> <1218454625.95337.1591260687746@email.ionos.com> <002f01d63a80$5d7630a0$186291e0$@com> <20200604214638.8A712276FC@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <315ebcb4-a86d-708b-b0e5-33cc3aacc75a@jwsss.com> On 6/4/2020 2:46 PM, Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctech wrote: > Just had a look at file in hex editor and first &HDFFFFF bytes are 0 > and then appears to be some type of image format after that. There are three of the issues on the page which are damaged.? All have one or more copies available on archive dot org they seem to have all suffered the same damage, a large chunk at the front zeroed out. thanks Jim The corrupted ones: 198610_Byte_Magazine_Vol_11-11_Inside_the_IBM_PC.pdf 198806_Byte_Magazine_Vol_13-06_New_Benchmarks_Ultra_High-speed_Modems.pdf and 198905_Byte_Magazine_Vol_14-05_Unix_CAD_and_Technology_Breakthroughs.pdf are corrupted on the vintageapple.org web site From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Jun 5 02:07:44 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:07:44 -0700 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: <156138ae-a691-6cb2-6393-7061d69f019e@jwsss.com> References: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> <819289bb-e41a-d853-ae32-fa502b2ce7ec@thereinhardts.org> <1218454625.95337.1591260687746@email.ionos.com> <002f01d63a80$5d7630a0$186291e0$@com> <156138ae-a691-6cb2-6393-7061d69f019e@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 6/4/2020 8:42 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > I'm looking for a photographic ad placed by ACP (Advanced Computer > Products). I want to thank Bill Degnan and Patrick Finnegan for solving this. At least I have the photo I was looking for. Bill offered kindly to scan any issue I need.? But Patrick found an ACP flyer which had the photo I recall, along with some other accomplishments on an insertion to a copy of Byte he had. I think the issue with the photo is still out there, but at least now I've got the photo.? I will put an update somewhere and point at it later. Much appreciate their help. Thanks Jim From julf at julf.com Fri Jun 5 02:46:10 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 09:46:10 +0200 Subject: Compaq Proliant parts Message-ID: Anyone in need of a Proliant 6000 / 7000 CPU board (unused), and hotswap hard disk cartridges? https://imgur.com/a/3h9VBmH Julf From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 07:32:47 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:32:47 -0400 Subject: BYTE Magazines In-Reply-To: References: <2071950841.1309911.1591165160304@mail.yahoo.com> <1258763840.35575.1591212631442@email.ionos.com> <819289bb-e41a-d853-ae32-fa502b2ce7ec@thereinhardts.org> <1218454625.95337.1591260687746@email.ionos.com> <002f01d63a80$5d7630a0$186291e0$@com> <156138ae-a691-6cb2-6393-7061d69f019e@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 5, 2020, 3:07 AM jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 6/4/2020 8:42 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > I'm looking for a photographic ad placed by ACP (Advanced Computer > > Products). > I want to thank Bill Degnan and Patrick Finnegan for solving this. At > least I have the photo I was looking for. > > Bill offered kindly to scan any issue I need. But Patrick found an ACP > flyer which had the photo I recall, along with some other > accomplishments on an insertion to a copy of Byte he had. > > I think the issue with the photo is still out there, but at least now > I've got the photo. I will put an update somewhere and point at it later. > > Much appreciate their help. > Thanks > Jim > Jim, To clarify, I meant any page, not any issue. I'd have to destroy the magazine to scan it or it would take to long :-) Bill From jon at jonworld.com Fri Jun 5 08:56:32 2020 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 14:56:32 +0100 Subject: Seiko Epson Robotics Controller Boards Message-ID: Hi everyone! My wife found some interesting VME-looking boards for sale on a surplus auction website. This is what we scored. Is there any interest for these here? 1x Main CPU SKP-220-3 4x Sub CPU SKP-221-3 (2 look good, one has a battery that exploded all over it, one labelled bad CMOS but had a bent pin.) 3x Servo SKP-222-3 1x IO Board SKP-184-2 I have no card cage, no documentation, and no way to test these. Some are labelled that they tested good in 2008. I'll happily supply pictures for those interested, but they're essentially 2U VME boards with MC68000 chips and the main CPU has an MC68HC000 CPU. They seem to fetch a fair sum on eBay, but just because they're listed at these prices doesn't mean that they actually sell at that price: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Seiko-Epson-Accu-Sembler-Robot-Control-Sub-CPU-Board-SKP-221-1-/131626986911 -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 From kurtwig11 at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 05:06:18 2020 From: kurtwig11 at gmail.com (Kurt Svensson) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 12:06:18 +0200 Subject: Alfaskop terminals and SPL programming language. Message-ID: S?g ovanst?ende - har du n?gra fr?gor kontakta mig - jag gjorde kompilatorn f?r SPL. Mvh Kurt Svensson From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jun 7 10:30:24 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 11:30:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Someone's confused Message-ID: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Love the title on this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/184317705963 eBait auction: "16K Sense Inhibit Board .. VAX 6000, VAX-11/730". Yeah, core on a VAX! And such a deal, a mere US$400! Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jun 7 11:31:30 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 11:31:30 -0500 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5EDD1662.9020000@pico-systems.com> On 06/07/2020 10:30 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Love the title on this: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/184317705963 > > eBait auction: "16K Sense Inhibit Board .. VAX 6000, VAX-11/730". > Yeah, core on a VAX! And such a deal, a mere US$400! 1974 date codes. Not too likely to be VAX related! Jon From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Jun 7 12:27:22 2020 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 12:27:22 -0500 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please Message-ID: <42f4070f-4134-51db-3fbc-d978c71b93c0@centurytel.net> Until a few minutes ago, my VT240 was operating normally, but now it's unresponsive (fails during power-on self test). Normal behavior was: display a checkerboard, then two different intensity all-white bands growing slowly up from the bottom of the screen, then a beep and the expected "VT240 Monitor Error 9" (because I'm using an old B&W composite monitor instead of the DEC VR201 with special cable). Thereafter, normal operation. Now, it briefly displays the checkerboard (and all four keyboard lights turn on, then off); then the Lock and Wait lights come on and nothing else happens. Blank screen. Power-OK light on the back is illuminated and 5.19 volts measured on the board. Haven't checked +12 (or the internally derived keyboard +5) yet. Another possibly useful observation: I can press the Setup (or any other) key about four times and hear a keyclick sound each time. But then it stops playing the click sound if I keep pressing keys. This suggests that the interrupt on the CPU (a T11) is not being responded to. The technical manual is very detailed but does not describe the specifics of the POST, which could be useful in locating the failed circuit (or firmware). Can anyone with experience in debugging these terminals lend a hand? Should I even be looking at the main board, or the keyboard which also has an 8051 CPU?? thanks. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 16:11:05 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 16:11:05 -0500 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <5EDD1662.9020000@pico-systems.com> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5EDD1662.9020000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: prolly found it in a box of vax stuff lol On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 11:31 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 06/07/2020 10:30 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Love the title on this: > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/184317705963 > > > > eBait auction: "16K Sense Inhibit Board .. VAX 6000, VAX-11/730". > > Yeah, core on a VAX! And such a deal, a mere US$400! > 1974 date codes. Not too likely to be VAX related! > > Jon > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Jun 7 16:55:34 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 14:55:34 -0700 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5EDD1662.9020000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5bfc39bb-d97f-90f2-255a-58c4a25d2bca@jwsss.com> On 6/7/2020 2:11 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > prolly found it in a box of vax stuff lol > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 11:31 AM Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 06/07/2020 10:30 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> Love the title on this: >>> >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/184317705963 >>> >>> eBait auction: "16K Sense Inhibit Board .. VAX 6000, VAX-11/730". >>> Yeah, core on a VAX! And such a deal, a mere US$400! >> 1974 date codes. Not too likely to be VAX related! >> >> Jon >> Large numbers of keyboards listed.? There are DEC keyboards listed and a "Vintage VT320 monitor" for sale separately. muttering dirty words. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Jun 7 19:11:56 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 17:11:56 -0700 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> On 2020-Jun-07, at 8:30 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Love the title on this: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/184317705963 > > eBait auction: "16K Sense Inhibit Board .. VAX 6000, VAX-11/730". > Yeah, core on a VAX! And such a deal, a mere US$400! To add to the weirdness, here are some actual core boards (the module companions to the above board?), https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-Digital-Core-Memory-H-217C-13258-H217C-1210711/111384020221 https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-Digital-Core-Memory-H217D-H2127D-6207/111384018413 Same "VAX 6000 / VAX-11/730", but from a different seller. From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jun 7 21:52:51 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 21:52:51 -0500 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> On 06/07/2020 07:11 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-Jun-07, at 8:30 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> Love the title on this: >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/184317705963 >> >> eBait auction: "16K Sense Inhibit Board .. VAX 6000, VAX-11/730". >> Yeah, core on a VAX! And such a deal, a mere US$400! > To add to the weirdness, here are some actual core boards (the module companions to the above board?), > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-Digital-Core-Memory-H-217C-13258-H217C-1210711/111384020221 > https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-Digital-Core-Memory-H217D-H2127D-6207/111384018413 > > Same "VAX 6000 / VAX-11/730", but from a different seller. Hmmm, separate sentence, I think they are saying they have VAX 6000's and VAX 730's available, call for freight quote. Wow, who would want a 730? Jon From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 01:55:14 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 07:55:14 +0100 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 3:53 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Wow, who would want a 730? I would. Well, actually I have one so I don't need another but you get the point. There are only 2 families of VAXen that I would want to own/run. The 11/730 and the 11/780. The reason is that those are the only ones I could repair. And I don't have the space for a 780 or similar. The fact that the 730 is entirely soft microcode (how I wish there was more documentation on that) is a bonus -tony From matt at 9track.net Mon Jun 8 03:37:49 2020 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 09:37:49 +0100 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: <42f4070f-4134-51db-3fbc-d978c71b93c0@centurytel.net> References: <42f4070f-4134-51db-3fbc-d978c71b93c0@centurytel.net> Message-ID: On 07/06/2020 18:27, Charles via cctalk wrote: > Until a few minutes ago, my VT240 was operating normally, but now it's > unresponsive (fails during power-on self test). > > Normal behavior was: display a checkerboard, then two different > intensity all-white bands growing slowly up from the bottom of the > screen, then a beep and the expected "VT240 Monitor Error 9" (because > I'm using an old B&W composite monitor instead of the DEC VR201 with > special cable). Thereafter, normal operation. > > Now, it briefly displays the checkerboard (and all four keyboard > lights turn on, then off); then the Lock and Wait lights come on and > nothing else happens. Blank screen. > The keyboard LEDs are used to indicate the test being performed, in this case test 5 failed. They are listed in the pocket service guide. For the first 6 codes it just says fatal error, replace terminal controller board. I don't think it is the keyboard. You should get an error code 7 on screen for that. I'm afraid I haven't looked into the VT240 firmware but I have looked at the VT220 previously. Here are some of my notes on the self test: 0 = 8051 Internal RAM Test (Data=0xAA) 0 = 8051 Internal RAM Test (Data=0x55) 0 = 8051 Internal RAM Test (Data=0x00) 1 = 8051 Internal ROM Checksum (8840: lcall $8870) 2 = External ROM Checksum 0x8000 (884B: lcall $8870) 3 = External ROM Checksum 0xC000 8 = Screen RAM 0 (Addr=0xA000 Data=0xAA) 9 = Screen RAM 1 (Addr=0xA800 Data=0xAA) A = Atrrib RAM 0 (Addr=0x8000 Data=0xAA) B = Attrib RAM 1 (Addr=0x8800 Data=0xAA) 8 = Screen RAM 0 (Addr=0xA000 Data=0x55) 9 = Screen RAM 1 (Addr=0xA800 Data=0x55) A = Atrrib RAM 0 (Addr=0x8000 Data=0x55) B = Attrib RAM 1 (Addr=0x8800 Data=0x55) 8 = Screen RAM 0 (Addr=0xA000 Data=??) 9 = Screen RAM 1 (Addr=0xA800 Data=??) A = Atrrib RAM 0 (Addr=0x8000 Data=??) B = Attrib RAM 1 (Addr=0x8800 Data=??) C = Character ROM (read only) D = Alt Character RAM (read/write) E = Alt Character RAM (?) I know the VT240 uses a different processor to the VT220 but this gives you an idea of the sort of things that are being tested early on. I imagine the VT240 will carry out a similar set of tests. Matt From bear at typewritten.org Mon Jun 8 01:35:37 2020 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 23:35:37 -0700 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> On Jun 7, 2020, at 7:52 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > Wow, who would want a 730? Somebody very, very determined. ok bear. -- until further notice From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 8 05:03:03 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:03:03 +0100 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <010701d63d7c$00195eb0$004c1c10$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of r.stricklin via > cctalk > Sent: 08 June 2020 07:36 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Someone's confused > > > On Jun 7, 2020, at 7:52 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > > > Wow, who would want a 730? > > Somebody very, very determined. > Well I would like one if I had the space. I might make space if one came up! > > ok > bear. > > -- > until further notice From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 8 05:03:03 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:03:03 +0100 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <010701d63d7c$00195eb0$004c1c10$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of r.stricklin via > cctalk > Sent: 08 June 2020 07:36 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Someone's confused > > > On Jun 7, 2020, at 7:52 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > > > Wow, who would want a 730? > > Somebody very, very determined. > Well I would like one if I had the space. I might make space if one came up! > > ok > bear. > > -- > until further notice From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jun 8 07:02:41 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:02:41 -0400 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On 2020-06-08 02:35, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: > > On Jun 7, 2020, at 7:52 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > >> Wow, who would want a 730? > Somebody very, very determined. Guys be nice! That's the slowest VAX, right? In a small cabinet, I would take it, simply for that ;-) From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jun 8 07:02:41 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:02:41 -0400 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On 2020-06-08 02:35, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: > > On Jun 7, 2020, at 7:52 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > >> Wow, who would want a 730? > Somebody very, very determined. Guys be nice! That's the slowest VAX, right? In a small cabinet, I would take it, simply for that ;-) From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 8 07:46:09 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:46:09 +0100 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On 08/06/2020 13:02, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > Guys be nice! That's the slowest VAX, right? > In a small cabinet, I would take it, simply for that ;-) > In terms of speed I think the MicroVAX I might be even slower, although whether you'd notice would be questionable! In terms of size the MicroVAX I is considerably more convenient. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 8 07:50:07 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:50:07 +0100 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <010a01d63d93$57080ac0$05182040$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler > via cctalk > Sent: 08 June 2020 13:03 > To: r.stricklin ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts ; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Someone's confused > > On 2020-06-08 02:35, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Jun 7, 2020, at 7:52 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > > > >> Wow, who would want a 730? > > Somebody very, very determined. > > Guys be nice! That's the slowest VAX, right? > > In a small cabinet, I would take it, simply for that ;-) Yes, it is pretty slow. I used to use one in the mid 80's and I rescued the boards from it when it was about to be scrapped. I gave a couple of boards to someone who I don't think did anything with them in the end ? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 8 07:50:07 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:50:07 +0100 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <010a01d63d93$57080ac0$05182040$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler > via cctalk > Sent: 08 June 2020 13:03 > To: r.stricklin ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts ; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Someone's confused > > On 2020-06-08 02:35, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Jun 7, 2020, at 7:52 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > > > >> Wow, who would want a 730? > > Somebody very, very determined. > > Guys be nice! That's the slowest VAX, right? > > In a small cabinet, I would take it, simply for that ;-) Yes, it is pretty slow. I used to use one in the mid 80's and I rescued the boards from it when it was about to be scrapped. I gave a couple of boards to someone who I don't think did anything with them in the end ? From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Jun 8 10:55:19 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:55:19 -0400 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <6a805c89-3cfd-1621-aa31-ace5f152d376@alembic.crystel.com> I have a MV1 board set here, I'd be willing to fire up VMS to see if it's slower if someone wants to send me a TK50 boot tape but I'm guessing it would be the slowest Vax on earth. Reasons why: 1) MV1 has only 4mb of memory to the 730's 5mb. 2) I believe the 730 accesses memory in 32 bit chunks as opposed to the MV1 having to access memory over the Q bus in 16 bit words. So you're double bucking there. Don't remember if the MV1 has a cache. 3) An 11/730 has that R80 controller. The R80 is most probably faster than the RQDX3+RD54, note that the RQDX3 is a slug of a controller compared even to a MTI ESDI controller. Possibly due to the MFM interface. 4) The 11/730 could emulate pdp11 instructions, the MV1 could not. Come to think of it I think the 730's floating point could do D,F,G,H while the MV1 could only do D,F,G. I'm not sure why they didn't do PMI memory on the MV1, possibly because it's two boards already and they might already talk over CD interconnect, limiting the memory to one card. But the result is a really slow little VAX, probably slower than the 730. C On 6/8/2020 8:46 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 08/06/2020 13:02, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >> Guys be nice! That's the slowest VAX, right? >> In a small cabinet, I would take it, simply for that ;-) >> > In terms of speed I think the MicroVAX I might be even slower, although > whether you'd notice would be questionable! > > > In terms of size the MicroVAX I is considerably more convenient. > > > Antonio > From ethan at 757.org Mon Jun 8 11:02:00 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 12:02:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WTB: 64K S-100 board, Hard Sectored 5.25" floppies Message-ID: Looking for a CompuPro RAM 16 or something similar that will work in an IMSAI 8080. Also looking for a few hard sectored (10 sector) 5.25" floppies Reply off list! Thanks! - Ethan O'Toole From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 8 11:50:52 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 17:50:52 +0100 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <6a805c89-3cfd-1621-aa31-ace5f152d376@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> <6a805c89-3cfd-1621-aa31-ace5f152d376@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <2b295057-e072-9984-6cf2-37cee3778f8a@ntlworld.com> On 08/06/2020 16:55, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I have a MV1 board set here, I'd be willing to fire up VMS to see if > it's slower if someone wants to send me a TK50 boot tape but I'm > guessing it would be the slowest Vax on earth. > > Reasons why: > 1) MV1 has only 4mb of memory to the 730's 5mb. > > 2) I believe the 730 accesses memory in 32 bit chunks as opposed to > the MV1 having to access memory over the Q bus in 16 bit words. So > you're double bucking there. Don't remember if the MV1 has a cache. > > 3) An 11/730 has that R80 controller. The R80 is most probably faster > than the RQDX3+RD54, note that the RQDX3 is a slug of a controller > compared even to a MTI ESDI controller. Possibly due to the MFM > interface. > > 4) The 11/730 could emulate pdp11 instructions, the MV1 could not. > Come to think of it I think the 730's floating point could do D,F,G,H > while the MV1 could only do D,F,G. > > I'm not sure why they didn't do PMI memory on the MV1, possibly > because it's two boards already and they might already talk over CD > interconnect, limiting the memory to one card. But the result is a > really slow little VAX, probably slower than the 730. I think the MicroVAX I was (at least in part) built quickly to prove that it could be done and was always intended to be superseded by the MicroVAX II (which took longer and was more efficient). I'm sure I've seen explanations on the net before, but I can't find them now. Maybe I read it on the EASYNET? In which case, until someone is willing to release their backups of some of DEC's internal NOTES conferences, we'll possibly never know. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 12:13:26 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:13:26 -0400 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <2b295057-e072-9984-6cf2-37cee3778f8a@ntlworld.com> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> <6a805c89-3cfd-1621-aa31-ace5f152d376@alembic.crystel.com> <2b295057-e072-9984-6cf2-37cee3778f8a@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I believe your recollection is correct. I was working on a project and looking at replacing a bunch of 11 boxes, and we had an NDA discussion of what would be MVII. WE selected those to replace the aging 11 boxes, the configuration gave us more compute nodes, less power consumption, and much less physical space needed to house the gear. Worked great for a long time. Of course later, the uVII boxes were consolidated into larger vax offerings, but combining the functions of multiple uVII boses. bb On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 12:51 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > On 08/06/2020 16:55, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > I have a MV1 board set here, I'd be willing to fire up VMS to see if > > it's slower if someone wants to send me a TK50 boot tape but I'm > > guessing it would be the slowest Vax on earth. > > > > Reasons why: > > 1) MV1 has only 4mb of memory to the 730's 5mb. > > > > 2) I believe the 730 accesses memory in 32 bit chunks as opposed to > > the MV1 having to access memory over the Q bus in 16 bit words. So > > you're double bucking there. Don't remember if the MV1 has a cache. > > > > 3) An 11/730 has that R80 controller. The R80 is most probably faster > > than the RQDX3+RD54, note that the RQDX3 is a slug of a controller > > compared even to a MTI ESDI controller. Possibly due to the MFM > > interface. > > > > 4) The 11/730 could emulate pdp11 instructions, the MV1 could not. > > Come to think of it I think the 730's floating point could do D,F,G,H > > while the MV1 could only do D,F,G. > > > > I'm not sure why they didn't do PMI memory on the MV1, possibly > > because it's two boards already and they might already talk over CD > > interconnect, limiting the memory to one card. But the result is a > > really slow little VAX, probably slower than the 730. > > > I think the MicroVAX I was (at least in part) built quickly to prove > that it could be done and was always intended to be superseded by the > MicroVAX II (which took longer and was more efficient). > > I'm sure I've seen explanations on the net before, but I can't find them > now. Maybe I read it on the EASYNET? In which case, until someone is > willing to release their backups of some of DEC's internal NOTES > conferences, we'll possibly never know. > > > Antonio > > > -- > Antonio Carlini > antonio at acarlini.com > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 12:26:25 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:26:25 -0400 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:53 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Hmmm, separate sentence, I think they are saying they have > VAX 6000's and VAX 730's available, > call for freight quote. Wow, who would want a 730? I would, but I already have one, so like Tony, I don't need *another* one. -ethan From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jun 8 14:21:33 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 14:21:33 -0500 Subject: Old communications software Message-ID: <009e01d63dca$058aa9f0$109ffdd0$@com> If any of you are looking for new in box Lantastic or Hayes Smartcom software, I have some for sale. https://elecshopper.com/Communications-Software-c47411005 Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jun 8 14:26:00 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:26:00 -0400 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <6a805c89-3cfd-1621-aa31-ace5f152d376@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> <6a805c89-3cfd-1621-aa31-ace5f152d376@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <67fb491e-d203-a710-f40b-630e7254d3f1@e-bbes.com> On 2020-06-08 11:55, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > 4) The 11/730 could emulate pdp11 instructions, the MV1 could not. Come > to think of it I think the 730's floating point could do D,F,G,H while > the MV1 could only do D,F,G. IIRC, there were two versions of the MV I board sets with different floating points? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 8 14:49:23 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:49:23 -0600 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <8fe48180-0992-564c-2b5c-335c5446502b@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/8/2020 6:46 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 08/06/2020 13:02, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >> Guys be nice! That's the slowest VAX, right? >> In a small cabinet, I would take it, simply for that ;-) >> > In terms of speed I think the MicroVAX I might be even slower, although > whether you'd notice would be questionable! > > > In terms of size the MicroVAX I is considerably more convenient. > > > Antonio > But speed is relative. They changed computers where I was studing electronics from a IBM-1130 to a VAX (something) in 1982. I could use the IBM but the not VAX because they would have too many users if that division had access to the VAX, and the electonics section had PDP8 computers anyway. So I suspect any VAX with one user would be faster than REAL world machines in 1980's. Ben. PS:Virtual memory thrashing is what slows a computer down, not say a 10,000 monkeys typing Shakespeare on ASR-33's. From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Jun 8 15:02:42 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:02:42 -0700 Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's Message-ID: <4AE4C905-C981-4124-AE75-6AD5103E65B6@avanthar.com> I have the urge to get my Amiga?s back up and running. I?m still trying to find my main Amiga A3000, but have found my A500 and my A600. The problem is, I don?t remember the last time I powered these on. It?s been a long time since I?ve had time. In the case of the A3000, I think it?s been about 17 years. My Atari TT030 has been even longer. :-( Any advice about powering them up? Of course another fun challenge will be to figure out where on earth all my Amiga floppies are. Zane From ethan at 757.org Mon Jun 8 15:24:17 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 16:24:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: <4AE4C905-C981-4124-AE75-6AD5103E65B6@avanthar.com> References: <4AE4C905-C981-4124-AE75-6AD5103E65B6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > I have the urge to get my Amiga?s back up and running. I?m still trying > to find my main Amiga A3000, but have found my A500 and my A600. The > problem is, I don?t remember the last time I powered these on. It?s > been a long time since I?ve had time. In the case of the A3000, I think > it?s been about 17 years. My Atari TT030 has been even longer. :-( Nice collection! Sooooo now for the bad news. On the Amiga A501 trap door memory expansion, there is a battery for the time clock that will leak. It can damage the memory board. Also, the off gassing of it can cause corrosion in the main computer as well. the Amiga 600 has surface mount capacitors that will leak and eat the main board. The machine will smell kinda funny, like fish or something. You will want to pull it apart and investigate it. The caps are in the upper left, upper right and middle for the most part. Have one on my bench I've been trying to fix for a while and it's been tough. I advice recapping before powering it on. And the cap job takes some work since it's all surface mount and the solder is funky from the electrolyte corrosion. the Amiga 3000 suffers from a battery leak issue as well. Take it apart, clip out the battery on the mainboard. It's under the drives if I recall. Check the damage around the area. Look online for neutralizing it all on this and the A500. There are replacement mainboards that have been produced if you're adventurous and your board is no good anymore from extreme damage. You have to solder everything on and move over parts. There are some killer upgrades for the A500 that give it ~40mhz, 8MB of RAM and hard drive via SD or CF cards. These upgrades might run $150-$200, not bad compared to the flash cards that cost $120 for many systems or say, the CF disk only for the Apple II @ $120ish. -- : Ethan O'Toole From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 8 15:54:23 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:54:23 -0700 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <8fe48180-0992-564c-2b5c-335c5446502b@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> <8fe48180-0992-564c-2b5c-335c5446502b@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7a5d9e85-c671-6af7-f5fa-445900a5256f@sydex.com> On 6/8/20 12:49 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > But speed is relative. They changed computers where I was studing > electronics from a IBM-1130 to a VAX (something) in 1982. > I could use the IBM but the not VAX because they would have too > many users if that division had access to the VAX, and the > electonics section had PDP8 computers anyway. > So I suspect any VAX with one user would be faster than REAL > world machines in 1980's. > Ben. > PS:Virtual memory thrashing is what slows a computer down, > not say a 10,000 monkeys typing Shakespeare on ASR-33's. Well, one of the problems is the OS scheduling users without the ability to manage resources. There's nothing wrong with virtual memory, provided that it's managed correctly. When the illusion of lots of memory causes the scheduler to drastically over-commit resources, you get thrashing and nobody gets anything done. Although there are exceptions. I recall that it was possible, using large page sizes on the CDC STAR-100 to execute an instruction that could never get started. The STAR had 512KW (64 bits) of memory and a large page size was 64KW. A typical vector instruction could require 6 addresses for source, destination and control vectors. Put the starting address of any of these in last 8 words of a page and the hardware faulted preemptively for next page. It was kind of funny to watch; the P-counter for the user never budged, but the pager was sucking up time like crazy. I think someone eventually devised a check in the pager for this case, but I'm not certain. --Chuck From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Jun 8 15:58:18 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:58:18 -0700 Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4C905-C981-4124-AE75-6AD5103E65B6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <2C6AD752-BDD1-4559-99D1-F2C988EF062E@avanthar.com> > On Jun 8, 2020, at 1:24 PM, Ethan O'Toole wrote: > >> I have the urge to get my Amiga?s back up and running. I?m still trying to find my main Amiga A3000, but have found my A500 and my A600. The problem is, I don?t remember the last time I powered these on. It?s been a long time since I?ve had time. In the case of the A3000, I think it?s been about 17 years. My Atari TT030 has been even longer. :-( > > Nice collection! I was very active in collecting, and on this list at the beginning. I also have a couple A1200?s that need work, and I used to have a couple A2000?s (those went to Eric Smith probably 15-20 years ago). There is also a partial A500, unfortunately I think it?s missing the keyboard, IIRC. > Sooooo now for the bad news. > > On the Amiga A501 trap door memory expansion, there is a battery for the time clock that will leak. It can damage the memory board. Also, the off gassing of it can cause corrosion in the main computer as well. The memory expansion was purchased new, around ?98. I just removed it and checked it, and it looks fine. > the Amiga 600 has surface mount capacitors that will leak and eat the main board. The machine will smell kinda funny, like fish or something. You will want to pull it apart and investigate it. The caps are in the upper left, upper right and middle for the most part. Have one on my bench I've been trying to fix for a while and it's been tough. I advice recapping before powering it on. And the cap job takes some work since it's all surface mount and the solder is funky from the electrolyte corrosion. Sounds like this belongs in the same category as my two A1200?s, namely needing some serious surface mount work. I know the one A1200 has an issue with a chip that overheats. One strange thing about the A600, it?s already half apart, I?m not sure why, as it worked just fine when I got it, and I?ve never gotten around to figuring out how to put it back together. I?ll give it a smell later today. :-) > the Amiga 3000 suffers from a battery leak issue as well. Take it apart, clip out the battery on the mainboard. It's under the drives if I recall. Check the damage around the area. Look online for neutralizing it all on this and the A500. There are replacement mainboards that have been produced if you're adventurous and your board is no good anymore from extreme damage. You have to solder everything on and move over parts. > > There are some killer upgrades for the A500 that give it ~40mhz, 8MB of RAM and hard drive via SD or CF cards. These upgrades might run $150-$200, not bad compared to the flash cards that cost $120 for many systems or say, the CF disk only for the Apple II @ $120ish. I?ve been aware of the A3000 battery issue, I believe that I resolved this on the original in the late 90?s. Pulling my spare A3000 out of the box, and checking it has been on my todo list for a long time. :-( My main A3000 has been nicely upgraded, and was even running AmigaOS 3.9, the last time I was using it. It?s one of two reasons I still have a 10Base-2 network segment (the other is my DECserver). For a few years, this was one of my main systems. About 5 years ago, I picked up a Gotek floppy replacement system, with the intention of putting it into the A500. Zane From peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk Mon Jun 8 09:10:23 2020 From: peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk (Peter Hicks) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:10:23 +0100 Subject: VAXstation 3100 power supply Message-ID: Hello I have a couple of VAXstation 3100s - a M38 which boots but has no output on the console port, and another model which has corrosion on the motherboard and a PSU which doesn't power up correctly. The voltage on all of the M38 PSU's pins is OK except for pin 7 (brown) which is +3.5v to +5.25v DC and is floating at about 0.6v with reference to ground. I suspect this is why the console port doesn't work (and the LEDs on the read suggest a RAM problem so I can't tell which chip is faulty), so I've set about troubleshooting. Does anyone have any suggestions above and beyond replacing capacitors? Peter -- OpenTrainTimes Ltd. registered in?England and Wales, company no.? 09504022. Registered office: 13a?Davenant Road, Upper Holloway,?London N19 3NW From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 09:30:17 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:30:17 +0100 Subject: VAXstation 3100 power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21d201d63da1$54d39630$fe7ac290$@gmail.com> Peter, This is just generic advice based on recent experience. I would replace all electrolytic caps. I had some test pretty good, but PSU worked after I replaced them. Also check all the rectifier diodes as well, and I have had an opto-isolator fail. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Peter Hicks via > cctech > Sent: 08 June 2020 15:10 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: VAXstation 3100 power supply > > Hello > > I have a couple of VAXstation 3100s - a M38 which boots but has no output > on the console port, and another model which has corrosion on the > motherboard and a PSU which doesn't power up correctly. > > The voltage on all of the M38 PSU's pins is OK except for pin 7 (brown) which > is +3.5v to +5.25v DC and is floating at about 0.6v with reference to ground. I > suspect this is why the console port doesn't work (and the LEDs on the read > suggest a RAM problem so I can't tell which chip is faulty), so I've set about > troubleshooting. > > Does anyone have any suggestions above and beyond replacing capacitors? > > > Peter > > -- > > > OpenTrainTimes Ltd. registered in England and Wales, company no. > 09504022. > Registered office: 13a Davenant Road, Upper Holloway, London N19 > 3NW > > > From peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk Mon Jun 8 09:32:26 2020 From: peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk (Peter Hicks) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:32:26 +0100 Subject: VAXstation 3100 power supply In-Reply-To: <21d201d63da1$54d39630$fe7ac290$@gmail.com> References: <21d201d63da1$54d39630$fe7ac290$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave Superb, thanks - I hadn't thought about the rectifier diodes. A word of caution for anyone replacing the 470uF/250V electrolytics near the mains side of the board: the Nichicon like-for-like replacements are shorter and wider than the ones they replace and don't actually fit. Peter On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 at 15:30, Dave Wade wrote: > Peter, > This is just generic advice based on recent experience. I would replace > all electrolytic caps. I had some test pretty good, but PSU worked after I > replaced them. Also check all the rectifier diodes as well, and I have had > an opto-isolator fail. > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech On Behalf Of Peter Hicks > via > > cctech > > Sent: 08 June 2020 15:10 > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Subject: VAXstation 3100 power supply > > > > Hello > > > > I have a couple of VAXstation 3100s - a M38 which boots but has no output > > on the console port, and another model which has corrosion on the > > motherboard and a PSU which doesn't power up correctly. > > > > The voltage on all of the M38 PSU's pins is OK except for pin 7 (brown) > which > > is +3.5v to +5.25v DC and is floating at about 0.6v with reference to > ground. I > > suspect this is why the console port doesn't work (and the LEDs on the > read > > suggest a RAM problem so I can't tell which chip is faulty), so I've set > about > > troubleshooting. > > > > Does anyone have any suggestions above and beyond replacing capacitors? > > > > > > Peter > > > > -- > > > > > > OpenTrainTimes Ltd. registered in England and Wales, company no. > > 09504022. > > Registered office: 13a Davenant Road, Upper Holloway, London N19 > > 3NW > > > > > > > > > -- OpenTrainTimes Ltd. registered in?England and Wales, company no.? 09504022. Registered office: 13a?Davenant Road, Upper Holloway,?London N19 3NW From ethan at 757.org Mon Jun 8 16:18:13 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 17:18:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: <2C6AD752-BDD1-4559-99D1-F2C988EF062E@avanthar.com> References: <4AE4C905-C981-4124-AE75-6AD5103E65B6@avanthar.com> <2C6AD752-BDD1-4559-99D1-F2C988EF062E@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > I was very active in collecting, and on this list at the beginning. I > also have a couple A1200?s that need work, and I used to have a couple > A2000?s (those went to Eric Smith probably 15-20 years ago). There is > also a partial A500, unfortunately I think it?s missing the keyboard, > IIRC. Nice! My current Amiga list is an A500, A600 (under repair, I think I'm going to replace the fat agnus NTSC chip as a shot in the dark), A2500 (68020, 4MB, SD2SCSI, Toaster) and an A4000T (in great condition but I do need to recap it. Bought all the caps, not thrilled about the work ahead of me.) > The memory expansion was purchased new, around ?98. I just removed it > and checked it, and it looks fine. Ah cool! Good! > Sounds like this belongs in the same category as my two A1200?s, namely > needing some serious surface mount work. I know the one A1200 has an > issue with a chip that overheats. One strange thing about the A600, > it?s already half apart, I?m not sure why, as it worked just fine when I > got it, and I?ve never gotten around to figuring out how to put it back > together. I?ll give it a smell later today. :-) Yep, same issue. Does the overheating chip A1200 run? There are replacement motherboards for that but I don't think they pre-populate them with all the common parts unfortunately. That would be cool if they did. The A600 might of been apart for adding in a 44 pin IDE to CF card or something? That is an option that makes the A600 awesome. > I?ve been aware of the A3000 battery issue, I believe that I resolved > this on the original in the late 90?s. Pulling my spare A3000 out of > the box, and checking it has been on my todo list for a long time. :-( > My main A3000 has been nicely upgraded, and was even running AmigaOS > 3.9, the last time I was using it. It?s one of two reasons I still have > a 10Base-2 network segment (the other is my DECserver). For a few > years, this was one of my main systems. Spare A3000 :-) If the batteries are removed from both you should be in a good position. > About 5 years ago, I picked up a Gotek floppy replacement system, with > the intention of putting it into the A500. Yea I have one of those with the community firmware and OLED screen in an external enclosure for Atari ST Mega 2 with bad internal floppy. They are useful and cheap. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 8 17:32:20 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 23:32:20 +0100 Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4C905-C981-4124-AE75-6AD5103E65B6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 08/06/2020 21:24, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > > On the Amiga A501 trap door memory expansion, there is a battery for > the time clock that will leak. It can damage the memory board. Also, > the off gassing of it can cause corrosion in the main computer as well. > I checked my Amiga a few months ago. It does have the A501, but mine is not fitted with a battery. The PCB has the "outline" for where the battery should be, but no battery. It doesn't look like it's been removed by anyone either (unless they did an exceptionally fine job ...). No idea why mine has no battery. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 8 17:37:26 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 23:37:26 +0100 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <8fe48180-0992-564c-2b5c-335c5446502b@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> <8fe48180-0992-564c-2b5c-335c5446502b@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 08/06/2020 20:49, ben via cctalk wrote: >> > But speed is relative. They changed computers where I was studing > electronics from a IBM-1130 to a VAX (something) in 1982. > I could use the IBM but the not VAX because they would have too > many users if that division had access to the VAX, and the > electonics section had PDP8 computers anyway. > So I suspect any VAX with one user would be faster than REAL > world machines in 1980's. All my VAXes are now single user and quite likely to remain that way :-) Maybe if I ever get a house with a very large basement or very large outbuildings that can act as a computer room, then that might change. But for now, my VAXstation 4000 M9x is faster than almost all of my other VAXes (not counting SIMH). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 8 17:40:14 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 23:40:14 +0100 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <7a5d9e85-c671-6af7-f5fa-445900a5256f@sydex.com> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> <8fe48180-0992-564c-2b5c-335c5446502b@jetnet.ab.ca> <7a5d9e85-c671-6af7-f5fa-445900a5256f@sydex.com> Message-ID: <598b7d2d-7b7b-95d3-bca4-1a76075c1ff9@ntlworld.com> On 08/06/2020 21:54, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Although there are exceptions. I recall that it was possible, using > large page sizes on the CDC STAR-100 to execute an instruction that > could never get started. The STAR had 512KW (64 bits) of memory and a > large page size was 64KW. A typical vector instruction could require 6 > addresses for source, destination and control vectors. Put the starting > address of any of these in last 8 words of a page and the hardware > faulted preemptively for next page. It was kind of funny to watch; the > P-counter for the user never budged, but the pager was sucking up time > like crazy. I think someone eventually devised a check in the pager for > this case, but I'm not certain. > There was a standard VAX quiz question which was something along the lines of "what's the largest number of page faults can a single (valid) instruction cause" and the answer was surprisingly large (in the region of 50+ although I can no longer remember the details. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 8 19:24:18 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 20:24:18 -0400 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <598b7d2d-7b7b-95d3-bca4-1a76075c1ff9@ntlworld.com> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> <8fe48180-0992-564c-2b5c-335c5446502b@jetnet.ab.ca> <7a5d9e85-c671-6af7-f5fa-445900a5256f@sydex.com> <598b7d2d-7b7b-95d3-bca4-1a76075c1ff9@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <792E16F0-F3DF-4D3D-A607-2202FCA3D293@comcast.net> > On Jun 8, 2020, at 6:40 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > On 08/06/2020 21:54, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> Although there are exceptions. I recall that it was possible, using >> large page sizes on the CDC STAR-100 to execute an instruction that >> could never get started. The STAR had 512KW (64 bits) of memory and a >> large page size was 64KW. A typical vector instruction could require 6 >> addresses for source, destination and control vectors. Put the starting >> address of any of these in last 8 words of a page and the hardware >> faulted preemptively for next page. It was kind of funny to watch; the >> P-counter for the user never budged, but the pager was sucking up time >> like crazy. I think someone eventually devised a check in the pager for >> this case, but I'm not certain. >> > > There was a standard VAX quiz question which was something along the lines of "what's the largest number of page faults can a single (valid) instruction cause" and the answer was surprisingly large (in the region of 50+ although I can no longer remember the details. I would have thought a lot more than that, for string instructions with long operands. Re the STAR thing, that reminds me of a bug I encountered a decade or so ago on a high end MIPS architecture processor whose manufacturer shall remain nameless. It would prefetch instructions, issuing memory reads to fill the cache if necessary. So far so good. But if you hit a backward branch and then a prefetch for an address past that branch completed, the CPU would consider that access wasted and throw away the data. It wouldn't put it in the cache -- so the next time through the loop you'd get that memory reference again, and again, every iteration. This actually broke things in a cache flush operation because that required the execution of some intensely hairy code that was required to run without any extra cache misses. This bug meant that you'd always get a cache miss at the end of the loop. The fix required some additional very hairy code to hop ahead through address space to get those cache lines actually into the cache... paul From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 01:59:33 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 23:59:33 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum Message-ID: Hi all -- I'm working on a PDP-8/A I picked up at VCF West last summer. After a lot of cleaning and some power supply repair it's showing signs of life (CPU seems to be at least minimally functional, core memory is going to need some debugging.) The transformer in the power supply is humming quite loudly, however, and I'm curious if this is normal for the 8/A (or is typical for an 8/A of this vintage). I'm used to the supplies in various other DEC machines not being exactly silent but this is a rather severe 60Hz buzz that you can clearly hear over the fans when the machine is in operation. Thanks, Josh From marco at familie-rauhut.eu Tue Jun 9 03:09:15 2020 From: marco at familie-rauhut.eu (Marco Rauhut) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:09:15 +0200 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79CF2C21-EC24-4CAA-A7BF-75B2DC37DB96@familie-rauhut.eu> Hi Josh, i have restored last year a PDP-8/a to and had the same experience like you with the Powersuppy. I felt also wiered about the bang in the transformer in the moment of switching it on. Marco > Am 09.06.2020 um 09:02 schrieb Josh Dersch via cctalk : > > ?Hi all -- > > I'm working on a PDP-8/A I picked up at VCF West last summer. After a lot > of cleaning and some power supply repair it's showing signs of life (CPU > seems to be at least minimally functional, core memory is going to need > some debugging.) > > The transformer in the power supply is humming quite loudly, however, and > I'm curious if this is normal for the 8/A (or is typical for an 8/A of this > vintage). I'm used to the supplies in various other DEC machines not being > exactly silent but this is a rather severe 60Hz buzz that you can clearly > hear over the fans when the machine is in operation. > > Thanks, > Josh From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 06:30:48 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 06:30:48 -0500 Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: <4AE4C905-C981-4124-AE75-6AD5103E65B6@avanthar.com> References: <4AE4C905-C981-4124-AE75-6AD5103E65B6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 6/8/20 3:02 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I have the urge to get my Amiga?s back up and running. I?m still trying > to find my main Amiga A3000, but have found my A500 and my A600. The > problem is, I don?t remember the last time I powered these on. It?s > been a long time since I?ve had time. In the case of the A3000, I think > it?s been about 17 years. My Atari TT030 has been even longer. :-( > > Any advice about powering them up? As others have said, battery corrosion is a definite possibility, at least for the 3000. YMMV with hard drives, too - I think 100MB Quantums were the norm, and they do seem to be prone to stiction issues as they get older (the one in my 2500 sometimes needs a little help to get going) Other than that it's common sense stuff though, visual check for issues, clean floppy drive heads, isolate and test PSU, try applying power, reseat stuff as necessary. Jules From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 06:48:18 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 07:48:18 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: <79CF2C21-EC24-4CAA-A7BF-75B2DC37DB96@familie-rauhut.eu> References: <79CF2C21-EC24-4CAA-A7BF-75B2DC37DB96@familie-rauhut.eu> Message-ID: Is there a recommended alternative or replacement power supply for the 8/A? thanks On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 4:20 AM Marco Rauhut via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Josh, > > i have restored last year a PDP-8/a to and had the same experience like you with the Powersuppy. I felt also wiered about the bang in the transformer in the moment of switching it on. > > Marco > > > Am 09.06.2020 um 09:02 schrieb Josh Dersch via cctalk : > > > > ?Hi all -- > > > > I'm working on a PDP-8/A I picked up at VCF West last summer. After a lot > > of cleaning and some power supply repair it's showing signs of life (CPU > > seems to be at least minimally functional, core memory is going to need > > some debugging.) > > > > The transformer in the power supply is humming quite loudly, however, and > > I'm curious if this is normal for the 8/A (or is typical for an 8/A of this > > vintage). I'm used to the supplies in various other DEC machines not being > > exactly silent but this is a rather severe 60Hz buzz that you can clearly > > hear over the fans when the machine is in operation. > > > > Thanks, > > Josh > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 06:56:16 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 06:56:16 -0500 Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4C905-C981-4124-AE75-6AD5103E65B6@avanthar.com> <2C6AD752-BDD1-4559-99D1-F2C988EF062E@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <67c33fe9-9c71-3fb9-de81-727cc1b02d18@gmail.com> On 6/8/20 4:18 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >> I was very active in collecting, and on this list at the beginning.? I >> also have a couple A1200?s that need work, and I used to have a couple >> A2000?s (those went to Eric Smith probably 15-20 years ago).? There is >> also a partial A500, unfortunately I think it?s missing the keyboard, IIRC. > > Nice! My current Amiga list is an A500, A600 (under repair, I think I'm > going to replace the fat agnus NTSC chip as a shot in the dark), A2500 > (68020, 4MB, SD2SCSI, Toaster) and an A4000T (in great condition but I do > need to recap it. Bought all the caps, not thrilled about the work ahead of > me.) It's nice to see some other "non mainstream" Amigas out there. My list: A1000 with 1MB board and 68010 A1000 with 1.5MB board A2000HD with '030 and Toaster (100MB disk) A2500 with '030, genlock and '286 coprocessor (100MB disk) A4000 with '040 and Toaster (2 x 850MB disks) A4000T with '040, Toaster and timebase corrector / sync generator (2GB disk) There's also a '286 PC which I believe is just there for its ISA backplane and is hosting a bunch of video-related cards - that along with the A2000HD, A4000 and A4000T all came out of a TV production studio. There are also a few hand-held sync/channel controllers, too, but I don't know what else I'm missing in order to make everything "do stuff". The A4000 is, at least for now, beyond hope - it had quite extensive battery corrosion and wasn't showing signs of life even after going over it with a loupe and patching PCB traces. Either I missed something, or there's internal damage to one or more of the ICs. I did swap the A3640 into the A4000T, so I know that's working and the fault is local to the main logic board. Oh, as you have one too, any idea how many A4000Ts were made? I've been curious about that lately. It seems that Commodore put out around 200, but I can't find figures/estimates for the Escom-built machines (which mine is). cheers Jules From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jun 9 07:41:24 2020 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 14:41:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: <79CF2C21-EC24-4CAA-A7BF-75B2DC37DB96@familie-rauhut.eu> References: <79CF2C21-EC24-4CAA-A7BF-75B2DC37DB96@familie-rauhut.eu> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jun 2020, Marco Rauhut wrote: > i have restored last year a PDP-8/a to and had the same experience like > you with the Powersuppy. I felt also wiered about the bang in the > transformer in the moment of switching it on. Does it have a ferroresonant power supply? Then the hum and bang is normal ;-) Christian From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jun 9 08:21:50 2020 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:21:50 +0000 Subject: Ever seen a Cromemco Cyclops in the wild? Message-ID: I think a Stanford AI lab has one in a display case. Any others out there? It was supposedly "commercial" but I don't even remember ever seeing an ad for the Cyclops from Cromemco and I had a really good stash of Cromemco literature and hardware. I do remember the BYTE article where you pop the top off of a DRAM chip to make a Camera but that was 1983-ish, nearly a decade after the Cromemco Cyclops was supposedly "commercial". In the discussions I had in the 80's none of us seemed to know about the Cromemco Cyclops having preceded it. Tim N3QE From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 9 09:18:30 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:18:30 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69989298-E1CB-47DE-9FCC-7A8F751CCC0F@comcast.net> > On Jun 9, 2020, at 2:59 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all -- > > I'm working on a PDP-8/A I picked up at VCF West last summer. After a lot > of cleaning and some power supply repair it's showing signs of life (CPU > seems to be at least minimally functional, core memory is going to need > some debugging.) > > The transformer in the power supply is humming quite loudly, however, and > I'm curious if this is normal for the 8/A (or is typical for an 8/A of this > vintage). I'm used to the supplies in various other DEC machines not being > exactly silent but this is a rather severe 60Hz buzz that you can clearly > hear over the fans when the machine is in operation. Assuming these are traditional transformers with laminated sheet iron cores, check if the rivets or screws holding the laminations together are loose. If yes, tighten or replace the fastener. paul From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 09:27:02 2020 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:27:02 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: <69989298-E1CB-47DE-9FCC-7A8F751CCC0F@comcast.net> References: <69989298-E1CB-47DE-9FCC-7A8F751CCC0F@comcast.net> Message-ID: Related question: Is there any reason, other than historical accuracy and cost, to not replace the power supplies in vintage computers with modern switching power supplies? -- Anders Nelson On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 10:19 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jun 9, 2020, at 2:59 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Hi all -- > > > > I'm working on a PDP-8/A I picked up at VCF West last summer. After a > lot > > of cleaning and some power supply repair it's showing signs of life (CPU > > seems to be at least minimally functional, core memory is going to need > > some debugging.) > > > > The transformer in the power supply is humming quite loudly, however, and > > I'm curious if this is normal for the 8/A (or is typical for an 8/A of > this > > vintage). I'm used to the supplies in various other DEC machines not > being > > exactly silent but this is a rather severe 60Hz buzz that you can clearly > > hear over the fans when the machine is in operation. > > Assuming these are traditional transformers with laminated sheet iron > cores, check if the rivets or screws holding the laminations together are > loose. If yes, tighten or replace the fastener. > > paul > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 09:34:01 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:34:01 -0400 Subject: Ever seen a Cromemco Cyclops in the wild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Cyclops was demoed by Bill Sudebrink at recent VCF East or two. http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf13/Cromemco_Cyclops-1.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf13/Cromemco_Cyclops-2.jpg Bill Degnan On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:21 AM Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: > I think a Stanford AI lab has one in a display case. Any others out there? > > It was supposedly "commercial" but I don't even remember ever seeing an ad > for the Cyclops from Cromemco and I had a really good stash of Cromemco > literature and hardware. > > I do remember the BYTE article where you pop the top off of a DRAM chip to > make a Camera but that was 1983-ish, nearly a decade after the Cromemco > Cyclops was supposedly "commercial". In the discussions I had in the 80's > none of us seemed to know about the Cromemco Cyclops having preceded it. > > Tim N3QE > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jun 9 09:34:26 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:34:26 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: References: <69989298-E1CB-47DE-9FCC-7A8F751CCC0F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ad2146b-2652-a916-4176-050f7943aa50@telegraphics.com.au> On 2020-06-09 10:27 a.m., Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Related question: Is there any reason, other than historical accuracy and > cost, to not replace the power supplies in vintage computers with modern > switching power supplies? > 3) If it ain't broke, don't fix it > -- > Anders Nelson > > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 10:19 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >>> On Jun 9, 2020, at 2:59 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all -- >>> >>> I'm working on a PDP-8/A I picked up at VCF West last summer. After a >> lot >>> of cleaning and some power supply repair it's showing signs of life (CPU >>> seems to be at least minimally functional, core memory is going to need >>> some debugging.) >>> >>> The transformer in the power supply is humming quite loudly, however, and >>> I'm curious if this is normal for the 8/A (or is typical for an 8/A of >> this >>> vintage). I'm used to the supplies in various other DEC machines not >> being >>> exactly silent but this is a rather severe 60Hz buzz that you can clearly >>> hear over the fans when the machine is in operation. >> >> Assuming these are traditional transformers with laminated sheet iron >> cores, check if the rivets or screws holding the laminations together are >> loose. If yes, tighten or replace the fastener. >> >> paul >> >> From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 9 09:35:12 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:35:12 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: References: <69989298-E1CB-47DE-9FCC-7A8F751CCC0F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <715A8D63-C6FB-4A5F-AAEA-69B9533F634B@comcast.net> > On Jun 9, 2020, at 10:27 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > Related question: Is there any reason, other than historical accuracy and > cost, to not replace the power supplies in vintage computers with modern > switching power supplies? > > -- > Anders Nelson RFI? Old computers are not well shielded, and putting a switcher into them might well create significant radio interference. It may be ok if the power supply is a well shielded subsystem. Also watch out for minimum load. Classic power supplies don't mind being unloaded; switching supplies often need a minimum load current to keep them healthy. It's probably ok but it is a new consideration. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jun 9 09:44:07 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 09:44:07 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EDFA037.9070401@pico-systems.com> On 06/09/2020 01:59 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hi all -- > > I'm working on a PDP-8/A I picked up at VCF West last summer. After a lot > of cleaning and some power supply repair it's showing signs of life (CPU > seems to be at least minimally functional, core memory is going to need > some debugging.) > > The transformer in the power supply is humming quite loudly, however, and > I'm curious if this is normal for the 8/A (or is typical for an 8/A of this > vintage). I'm used to the supplies in various other DEC machines not being > exactly silent but this is a rather severe 60Hz buzz that you can clearly > hear over the fans when the machine is in operation. > > The old PDP machines used ferroresonant transformers to provide better voltage regulation. These do hum a bit. The cause is that they run part of the iron into the saturation region, and there is a lot of leakage magnetic flux. It may not be the actual transformer that is buzzing, but any piece of steel nearby. You might put your hand on various pieces in the area and see if you can find one that has developed a loose bolt or whatever. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jun 9 09:45:59 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 09:45:59 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: References: <69989298-E1CB-47DE-9FCC-7A8F751CCC0F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5EDFA0A7.90006@pico-systems.com> On 06/09/2020 09:27 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Related question: Is there any reason, other than historical accuracy and > cost, to not replace the power supplies in vintage computers with modern > switching power supplies? > > The old discrete transistor machines often used fairly odd voltages, not like 5V and 12V. Jon From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 9 09:54:54 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 07:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: <67c33fe9-9c71-3fb9-de81-727cc1b02d18@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson via cctalk at "Jun 9, 20 06:56:16 am" Message-ID: <202006091454.059Ess5A40763448@floodgap.com> > Oh, as you have one too, any idea how many A4000Ts were made? I've been > curious about that lately. It seems that Commodore put out around 200, but > I can't find figures/estimates for the Escom-built machines (which mine is). I've got a QuikPak A4000T with the '060 accelerator. Pretty sweet. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Family of Beaten Teen Hope For Healing After Death ---------- From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jun 9 10:06:04 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:06:04 -0400 Subject: Ever seen a Cromemco Cyclops in the wild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0f7001d63e6f$7f4f3e40$7dedbac0$@verizon.net> Hi Tim, I have 1 and a half "in the wild" Cyclops cameras (Cyclopi? whatever) and three board sets. I demonstrated a real Cyclops as well as my repro at VCF East. If you haven't seen my web site: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/cyclops/index.html Both Terry Walker and Harry Garland have retail Cyclops cameras and they say that Roger has one too. I visited Terry in San Jo and he kindly gave me a personal demonstration of his, driven by a little FPGA board that he came up with. Bill Sudbrink -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Shoppa, Tim via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2020 9:22 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Ever seen a Cromemco Cyclops in the wild? I think a Stanford AI lab has one in a display case. Any others out there? It was supposedly "commercial" but I don't even remember ever seeing an ad for the Cyclops from Cromemco and I had a really good stash of Cromemco literature and hardware. I do remember the BYTE article where you pop the top off of a DRAM chip to make a Camera but that was 1983-ish, nearly a decade after the Cromemco Cyclops was supposedly "commercial". In the discussions I had in the 80's none of us seemed to know about the Cromemco Cyclops having preceded it. Tim N3QE -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From abs at absd.org Tue Jun 9 10:31:14 2020 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 16:31:14 +0100 Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4C905-C981-4124-AE75-6AD5103E65B6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 at 21:24, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > > There are some killer upgrades for the A500 that give it ~40mhz, 8MB of > RAM and hard drive via SD or CF cards. These upgrades might run $150-$200, > not bad compared to the flash cards that cost $120 for many systems or > say, the CF disk only for the Apple II @ $120ish. Maybe worth mentioning one of the more extreme non CPU Amiga upgrades - the zz9000, which is expensive at ?349.00, but has quite an impressive set of features. List from https://shop.mntmn.com/products/zz9000-for-amiga-preorder for those who just prefer to read the damn text rather than bother with links :) * RTG: Up to 1920x1080 FHD screen resolution at 8bit 256-colors "Chunky", 16bit or 32bit color depths. (1920x1080 at 16 bit, all other resolutions up to 32 bit). * Enhanced VA2000CX Amiga native video passthrough functionality with AGA support (scandoubler with interlace flicker-fixer) * Dual 666MHz ARM Cortex A9 coprocessors to offload computing tasks like JPEG, MP3 decoding and graphics acceleration * 1GB DDR3 RAM * Ethernet interface: Get your Amiga online * USB port supports USB mass storage devices. The driver allows you to access USB sticks from workbench. * SD Card interface (for firmware updates, not currently usable from AmigaOS) * For Amiga 500, 2000, 3000 and 4000 (Zorro 2 and 3 compatible) * Drivers, firmware and schematics are open sourced: https://source.mntmn.com/MNT * Includes ZZ9000CX video slot capture card with cable * Includes metal slot bracket * Includes a minimal SDK with C examples for running ARM code from AmigaOS * Important: To use ZZ9000 with Amiga 500, you need a Zorro II adapter like Rob Cranley's Z-500 or the Checkmate 1500 Zorro adapter. (Also has support for other operating systems for those that swing that way :) David From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 10:39:08 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:39:08 -0400 Subject: Kennett Classic Open / Looking for a Linux/scripting programmer $$ Message-ID: The Kennett Classic Gallery of Computing history and shop has re-opened per State of PA and County of Chester guidelines. I am looking for volunteers to help with moving some large DEC racks into the basement area, we decided to expand exhibits to one more room to make space for the bigger iron, printers, VAX systems, etc. We are installing new exhibits this month and any help would be appreciated. I am also looking for a Linux scripting poss. Python programmer for a paid project through my web programming business (degnanco.com) if anyone here is interested in a project. Contact me privately. Kennett Classic 126 S Union St. Kennett Square, PA 19348 484 732 7041 kennettclassic.com -Bill Degnan- From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Jun 9 11:04:21 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 12:04:21 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: <2ad2146b-2652-a916-4176-050f7943aa50@telegraphics.com.au> References: <69989298-E1CB-47DE-9FCC-7A8F751CCC0F@comcast.net> <2ad2146b-2652-a916-4176-050f7943aa50@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 6/9/20 10:34 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-06-09 10:27 a.m., Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: >> Related question: Is there any reason, other than historical accuracy and >> cost, to not replace the power supplies in vintage computers with modern >> switching power supplies? >> > > 3) If it ain't broke, don't fix it > I have a VXT-2000. It is broke. If I could find out what the voltage and current requirements were and their positions on the power connector I would replace it in a heartbeat. bill From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Jun 9 11:30:07 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 09:30:07 -0700 Subject: Ever seen a Cromemco Cyclops in the wild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <912126D0-0ACC-43FE-B7A6-3EFC9699D661@shaw.ca> On 2020-Jun-09, at 6:21 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: > I think a Stanford AI lab has one in a display case. Any others out there? > > It was supposedly "commercial" but I don't even remember ever seeing an ad for the Cyclops from Cromemco and I had a really good stash of Cromemco literature and hardware. > > I do remember the BYTE article where you pop the top off of a DRAM chip to make a Camera but that was 1983-ish, nearly a decade after the Cromemco Cyclops was supposedly "commercial". In the discussions I had in the 80's none of us seemed to know about the Cromemco Cyclops having preceded it. As a teenager, I assembled a Cyclops from kit in 1977. An EE friend of my dad had an IMSAI for which I had been assembling boards back to at least mid '76. He obtained the Cyclops and the S100 interface board for it, and I assembled them. This was the model in a small blue diecast Al case with a lens on one end, internally there were 3-4 little boards that slid into board slots formed in the Al case. When I took the assembled units back to the friend and IMSAI and we tried it out, it didn't work. So I went home and constructed from scratch the oscilloscope interface (7 or 8 ICs) for the camera that could allow it to be used and tested without the added complexity of the S100 interface, computer, software, etc. The schematic for that was included in the Cyclops documentation. I still have the mylar-&-stick-on-graphics artwork I made up to produce the PCB for it, which I just confirmed the '77 date from. I never saw it produce an image though, the stuff was left with the EE friend and I don't know whether he was eventually successful with it or not. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 12:03:42 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:03:42 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: <5EDFA0A7.90006@pico-systems.com> References: <69989298-E1CB-47DE-9FCC-7A8F751CCC0F@comcast.net> <5EDFA0A7.90006@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 10:46 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 06/09/2020 09:27 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > Related question: Is there any reason, other than historical accuracy and > > cost, to not replace the power supplies in vintage computers with modern > > switching power supplies? > > > The old discrete transistor machines often used fairly odd > voltages, not like 5V and 12V. DEC's transistorized machines used +10V and -15V supply rails for the logic, and some other large voltage (+28V?) for the core. Later machines still used odd voltages. Lamp-based PDP-8 front panels used voltages like +8V, and later core was IIRC +20V. There are a couple versions of the PDP-8/a PSU, for core memory and for MOS memory. MOS memory is standard 1970s triple-voltage stuff (4096s and 4116s) but they pull a lot of +12V compared to later machines. It's often easier to just fix the old PSUs than replace them. At least linear supplies aren't so hard to debug. -ethan From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jun 9 12:16:18 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:16:18 -0700 Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4C905-C981-4124-AE75-6AD5103E65B6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: Looks like my Commodore 2002 monitor needs work. It?s not powering on. However, a monitor that is about the same (says Amiga on the front), seems to more or less work. The A500 (KS1.2) and A600HD (KS2.0) both complain they need a boot disk. One slight problem, I have no idea where any of my Amiga floppies are. Thankfully the Gotek I have was purchased pre-flashed with the old Cortex firmware, and as a result I was able to boot my A600HD before calling it a day last night. Figuring out how to use the Gotek proved to be an interesting experience, as either my google-fu is faulty, or information online is pretty spotty. Once I got it going, it seemed to work fine. The A600 is going to take a lot of work, and it looks like a couple parts to get it fully up and running. Since it?s a A600HD, I?d like some sort of HD in there. Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jun 9 13:04:01 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:04:01 -0700 Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4C905-C981-4124-AE75-6AD5103E65B6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <8602677C-D4D1-4893-BE46-DAD3B3EE323A@avanthar.com> On Jun 9, 2020, at 4:30 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/8/20 3:02 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> I have the urge to get my Amiga?s back up and running. I?m still trying >> to find my main Amiga A3000, but have found my A500 and my A600. The >> problem is, I don?t remember the last time I powered these on. It?s >> been a long time since I?ve had time. In the case of the A3000, I think >> it?s been about 17 years. My Atari TT030 has been even longer. :-( >> Any advice about powering them up? > > As others have said, battery corrosion is a definite possibility, at least for the 3000. YMMV with hard drives, too - I think 100MB Quantums were the norm, and they do seem to be prone to stiction issues as they get older (the one in my 2500 sometimes needs a little help to get going) > > Other than that it's common sense stuff though, visual check for issues, clean floppy drive heads, isolate and test PSU, try applying power, reseat stuff as necessary. I assume the spare A3000 has the Quantum, my heavily modified beater A3000 was last run using an external drive (I forget why, I think I wanted to avoid messing with the AmigaOS 3.1 install on the local disk. The external disk has AmigaOS 3.9 on it. I know where that HD is, and where my CD-ROM?s are. I?m just not sure where the A3000, keyboard, and CD-ROM drive are. I think my next project needs to be to pull out my spare A3000 and check it over. It?s been nagging at the back of my head for years. While I?m digging for my main A3000, I think I need to hunt up stuff like a floppy cleaning kit. I think I know where they should be. It?s been way too long since I messed with this stuff. I even moved all the Amiga books somewhere about a month ago? Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jun 9 13:13:00 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:13:00 -0700 Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: <202006091454.059Ess5A40763448@floodgap.com> References: <202006091454.059Ess5A40763448@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6B09E0DC-EDB7-44BB-9950-8EF0907921EE@avanthar.com> > On Jun 9, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > >> Oh, as you have one too, any idea how many A4000Ts were made? I've been >> curious about that lately. It seems that Commodore put out around 200, but >> I can't find figures/estimates for the Escom-built machines (which mine is). > > I've got a QuikPak A4000T with the '060 accelerator. Pretty sweet. It feels like there are quite a few A4000T?s out there. Most people that are really into the Amiga seem to have one. I?d really like to get one, but they?ve always been $$$?s. Same with the A4000 itself. For me the A1200 would make more sense at this point. Zane From ethan at 757.org Tue Jun 9 13:19:13 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 14:19:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: <6B09E0DC-EDB7-44BB-9950-8EF0907921EE@avanthar.com> References: <202006091454.059Ess5A40763448@floodgap.com> <6B09E0DC-EDB7-44BB-9950-8EF0907921EE@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > It feels like there are quite a few A4000T?s out there. Most people > that are really into the Amiga seem to have one. I?d really like to get > one, but they?ve always been $$$?s. Same with the A4000 itself. For me > the A1200 would make more sense at this point. My friend found the deal on the A4000Ts which includes mine. They weren't really cheap, and it was 3 in one deal surrounded by a ton of unknowns. All the manuals for the other things like the 060 accelerator and stuff -- the hardware wasn't with the systems. Ours have the slow CPU cards and the A4000T cases look like cheap PCs and are crazy large and empty, and the IO card on the back with the SCSI ribbons just seems poorly designed. - Ethan From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 13:19:05 2020 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 14:19:05 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: References: <69989298-E1CB-47DE-9FCC-7A8F751CCC0F@comcast.net> <5EDFA0A7.90006@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Interesting, good to know! -- Anders Nelson On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 1:04 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 10:46 AM Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > > On 06/09/2020 09:27 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > > Related question: Is there any reason, other than historical accuracy > and > > > cost, to not replace the power supplies in vintage computers with > modern > > > switching power supplies? > > > > > The old discrete transistor machines often used fairly odd > > voltages, not like 5V and 12V. > > DEC's transistorized machines used +10V and -15V supply rails for the > logic, and some other large voltage (+28V?) for the core. > > Later machines still used odd voltages. Lamp-based PDP-8 front panels > used voltages like +8V, and later core was IIRC +20V. > > There are a couple versions of the PDP-8/a PSU, for core memory and > for MOS memory. MOS memory is standard 1970s triple-voltage stuff > (4096s and 4116s) but they pull a lot of +12V compared to later > machines. > > It's often easier to just fix the old PSUs than replace them. At > least linear supplies aren't so hard to debug. > > -ethan > From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jun 9 13:23:46 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:23:46 -0700 Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4C905-C981-4124-AE75-6AD5103E65B6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 9, 2020, at 8:31 AM, David Brownlee wrote: > > On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 at 21:24, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk > wrote: >> >> There are some killer upgrades for the A500 that give it ~40mhz, 8MB of >> RAM and hard drive via SD or CF cards. These upgrades might run $150-$200, >> not bad compared to the flash cards that cost $120 for many systems or >> say, the CF disk only for the Apple II @ $120ish. > > Maybe worth mentioning one of the more extreme non CPU Amiga upgrades > - the zz9000, which is expensive at ?349.00, but has quite an > impressive set of features. List from > https://shop.mntmn.com/products/zz9000-for-amiga-preorder for those > who just prefer to read the damn text rather than bother with links :) > > * RTG: Up to 1920x1080 FHD screen resolution at 8bit 256-colors > "Chunky", 16bit or 32bit color depths. (1920x1080 at 16 bit, all other > resolutions up to 32 bit). > * Enhanced VA2000CX Amiga native video passthrough functionality with > AGA support (scandoubler with interlace flicker-fixer) > * Dual 666MHz ARM Cortex A9 coprocessors to offload computing tasks > like JPEG, MP3 decoding and graphics acceleration > * 1GB DDR3 RAM > * Ethernet interface: Get your Amiga online > * USB port supports USB mass storage devices. The driver allows you to > access USB sticks from workbench. > * SD Card interface (for firmware updates, not currently usable from AmigaOS) > * For Amiga 500, 2000, 3000 and 4000 (Zorro 2 and 3 compatible) > * Drivers, firmware and schematics are open sourced: > https://source.mntmn.com/MNT > * Includes ZZ9000CX video slot capture card with cable > * Includes metal slot bracket > * Includes a minimal SDK with C examples for running ARM code from AmigaOS > * Important: To use ZZ9000 with Amiga 500, you need a Zorro II adapter > like Rob Cranley's Z-500 or the Checkmate 1500 Zorro adapter. > > (Also has support for other operating systems for those that swing that way :) > > David My main A3000 has a Picasso IV+, and a 10Mbit 10Base-2 card, this would be a seriously tempting update. I never got around to adding USB, and would like a better Network card. Do you have one of these? I?m afraid I haven?t been on the Amiga email lists, or boards for a *VERY* long time. Zane From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 13:51:16 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:51:16 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: References: <69989298-E1CB-47DE-9FCC-7A8F751CCC0F@comcast.net> <2ad2146b-2652-a916-4176-050f7943aa50@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:04 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > I have a VXT-2000. It is broke. If I could find out what the voltage > and current requirements were and their positions on the power connector > I would replace it in a heartbeat. > For the VXT-2000 with an H7109-B the rated voltage and current values are printed right on the power supply label: +5.1V, 7.81A +12.1V, 0.62A -12.1V, 0.46A -9V, 0.2A Fixed width character pinout diagram: +=================+ -9V | Yellow | Orange | +12.1V +--------+--------+ ??? | White | Black | Gnd +--------+--------+ +5.1V | Red | Blue | -12.1V +--------+--------+ +5.1V | Red | Black | Gnd +--------+--------+ Gnd | Black | Black | Gnd +=================+ The mystery is the White wire. The power supply label only lists 4 output voltages. The White wire appears to be routed to the Ethernet daughter board. The measured voltage appears that it might be floating slightly negative, somewhere around -1.5V when the Ethernet daughter board is installed and around -5V when it is removed. Maybe it is a high impedance earth ground connection? It appears to be connected to the shield of the Ethernet BNC, which measures around 1M-Ohm to the chassis ground when the power supply is disconnected from the main board, and around 0.75M-Ohm when the power supply is connected. From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 13:54:36 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 20:54:36 +0200 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: References: <69989298-E1CB-47DE-9FCC-7A8F751CCC0F@comcast.net> <5EDFA0A7.90006@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Den tis 9 juni 2020 kl 19:04 skrev Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 10:46 AM Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > > On 06/09/2020 09:27 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > > Related question: Is there any reason, other than historical accuracy > and > > > cost, to not replace the power supplies in vintage computers with > modern > > > switching power supplies? > > > > > The old discrete transistor machines often used fairly odd > > voltages, not like 5V and 12V. > > DEC's transistorized machines used +10V and -15V supply rails for the > logic, and some other large voltage (+28V?) for the core. > > Later machines still used odd voltages. Lamp-based PDP-8 front panels > used voltages like +8V, and later core was IIRC +20V. > > There are a couple versions of the PDP-8/a PSU, for core memory and > for MOS memory. MOS memory is standard 1970s triple-voltage stuff > (4096s and 4116s) but they pull a lot of +12V compared to later > machines. > > It's often easier to just fix the old PSUs than replace them. At > least linear supplies aren't so hard to debug. > The MOS PDP-8/a PSU provide +5V, +15 and -15V. So no 12 V there. The Core PDP-8/a has -5V and +20V for the core memory. To be able to test and debug Omnibus boards in my lab (aka garage) I converted a MOS 8/a box into switched PSUs. Managed to squeeze five single output PSus in the box to be able to run both 8/e core memory (which require quite a lot -15V) and also newer 8/a core memory in it. It is so much less heavy to move around on the lab bench. https://i.imgur.com/3DW9ukm.jpg /Mattis > > -ethan > From abs at absd.org Tue Jun 9 14:58:58 2020 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 20:58:58 +0100 Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4C905-C981-4124-AE75-6AD5103E65B6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 19:23, Zane Healy wrote: > > My main A3000 has a Picasso IV+, and a 10Mbit 10Base-2 card, this would be a seriously tempting update. I never got around to adding USB, and would like a better Network card. > > Do you have one of these? I?m afraid I haven?t been on the Amiga email lists, or boards for a *VERY* long time. I'm on the other side of the fence with a TT030, but I understand the experience with them has been mixed from "everything that is supposed to work does", to "some bits work but others don't, but the dev releases updates which make more bits work". I do like that they open source the FPGA logic https://github.com/mntmn/zz9000-fw and that it just works in a standard Zorro slot... David From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 16:03:47 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 16:03:47 -0500 Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: References: <202006091454.059Ess5A40763448@floodgap.com> <6B09E0DC-EDB7-44BB-9950-8EF0907921EE@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 6/9/20 1:19 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > My friend found the deal on the A4000Ts which includes mine. They weren't > really cheap, and it was 3 in one deal surrounded by a ton of unknowns. All > the manuals for the other things like the 060 accelerator and stuff -- the > hardware wasn't with the systems. Ours have the slow CPU cards and the > A4000T cases look like cheap PCs and are crazy large and empty, and the IO > card on the back with the SCSI ribbons just seems poorly designed. Yup. Mine's like that, too. Just an '040, and a case that seems far too big for what's inside. If my "regular" 4000 was working I'd almost be inclined to use that instead - the T model looks a bit too much like a crazy mid-90's PC for my tastes (although the SCSI's nice). Thoughts on this, incidentally? https://www.ebay.com/itm/254545704933 It's just an empty case, not even a complete machine, which claims to have sold. No PSU, no "middle" drive bay hardware. I wonder if a friend of the seller "bought" it and it was just a trick to drive up prices or something - $550 seems ridiculous for an empty box, but I don't "do" ebay and don't know how crazy people are or what kind of scams go on. cheers Jules From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 16:10:04 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 14:10:04 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: <5EDFA037.9070401@pico-systems.com> References: <5EDFA037.9070401@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 7:44 AM Jon Elson wrote: > On 06/09/2020 01:59 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all -- > > > > I'm working on a PDP-8/A I picked up at VCF West last summer. After a > lot > > of cleaning and some power supply repair it's showing signs of life (CPU > > seems to be at least minimally functional, core memory is going to need > > some debugging.) > > > > The transformer in the power supply is humming quite loudly, however, and > > I'm curious if this is normal for the 8/A (or is typical for an 8/A of > this > > vintage). I'm used to the supplies in various other DEC machines not > being > > exactly silent but this is a rather severe 60Hz buzz that you can clearly > > hear over the fans when the machine is in operation. > > > > > The old PDP machines used ferroresonant transformers to > provide better voltage regulation. > These do hum a bit. The cause is that they run part of the > iron into the saturation region, and there is a lot of > leakage magnetic flux. It may not be the actual transformer > that is buzzing, but any piece of steel nearby. You might > put your hand on various pieces in the area and see if you > can find one that has developed a loose bolt or whatever. > > Jon > Thanks Jon (and everyone else). Yes, this is a ferroresonant transformer (w/matching motor-run cap), I'd just never heard one in a DEC machine that was so very loud. I'll see if there's anything that needs to be screwed down a bit more. - Josh From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 9 16:36:47 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 14:36:47 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: References: <5EDFA037.9070401@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 6/9/20 2:10 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 7:44 AM Jon Elson wrote: > Thanks Jon (and everyone else). Yes, this is a ferroresonant transformer > (w/matching motor-run cap), I'd just never heard one in a DEC machine that > was so very loud. I'll see if there's anything that needs to be screwed > down a bit more. Well, humming isn't always bad--I'd like my transformers to be able to hum "Coro a bocca chiusa" from Madame Butterfly... :) Ferroresonant supplies do work, but make ugliness on the AC line. Cheers, Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Jun 9 17:10:45 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 18:10:45 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: References: <69989298-E1CB-47DE-9FCC-7A8F751CCC0F@comcast.net> <2ad2146b-2652-a916-4176-050f7943aa50@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 6/9/20 2:51 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:04 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: >> >> I have a VXT-2000. It is broke. If I could find out what the voltage >> and current requirements were and their positions on the power connector >> I would replace it in a heartbeat. >> > > For the VXT-2000 with an H7109-B the rated voltage and current values > are printed right on the power supply label: > > +5.1V, 7.81A > +12.1V, 0.62A > -12.1V, 0.46A > -9V, 0.2A > > Fixed width character pinout diagram: > > +=================+ > -9V | Yellow | Orange | +12.1V > +--------+--------+ > ??? | White | Black | Gnd > +--------+--------+ > +5.1V | Red | Blue | -12.1V > +--------+--------+ > +5.1V | Red | Black | Gnd > +--------+--------+ > Gnd | Black | Black | Gnd > +=================+ > > The mystery is the White wire. The power supply label only lists 4 > output voltages. The White wire appears to be routed to the Ethernet > daughter board. The measured voltage appears that it might be floating > slightly negative, somewhere around -1.5V when the Ethernet daughter > board is installed and around -5V when it is removed. Maybe it is a > high impedance earth ground connection? It appears to be connected to > the shield of the Ethernet BNC, which measures around 1M-Ohm to the > chassis ground when the power supply is disconnected from the main > board, and around 0.75M-Ohm when the power supply is connected. > Thank you for that. Mine has no labels or anything. It is PC Board with Digital, Side 1, Side 2 and a number I don't recognize on it. I guess the -9V is the only odd one but you could easily get that from a -12V line. I may get to fix it yet. bill From boris at summitclinic.com Tue Jun 9 17:53:03 2020 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 14:53:03 -0800 Subject: Ever seen a Cromemco Cyclops in the wild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200609225309.65FBA4E6CA@mx2.ezwind.net> Funny how wetware memory works. I have that issue of Popular Electronics somewhere in my collection and would have seen the article as I would read it cover to cover after it arrived in mail. While looking at the issue again, remembered reading next article on PLL's so probably read the Cyclops article, decided that $25 was way too much for one chip and never bothered. However, I do have a lot of old RAM chips so might give it a try some day. What I do recall about that era that a 1024 bit SRAM cost about $10 in Canada. (That was in days when we made a profit selling beer for $0.25 at TGIF). Boris Gimbarzevsky >I think a Stanford AI lab has one in a display case. Any others out there? > >It was supposedly "commercial" but I don't even remember ever seeing >an ad for the Cyclops from Cromemco and I had a really good stash of >Cromemco literature and hardware. > >I do remember the BYTE article where you pop the top off of a DRAM >chip to make a Camera but that was 1983-ish, nearly a decade after >the Cromemco Cyclops was supposedly "commercial". In the discussions >I had in the 80's none of us seemed to know about the Cromemco >Cyclops having preceded it. > >Tim N3QE From macro at linux-mips.org Tue Jun 9 18:04:45 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 00:04:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: References: <69989298-E1CB-47DE-9FCC-7A8F751CCC0F@comcast.net> <2ad2146b-2652-a916-4176-050f7943aa50@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jun 2020, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > For the VXT-2000 with an H7109-B the rated voltage and current values > > are printed right on the power supply label: > > > > +5.1V, 7.81A > > +12.1V, 0.62A > > -12.1V, 0.46A > > -9V, 0.2A > > > > Fixed width character pinout diagram: > > > > +=================+ > > -9V | Yellow | Orange | +12.1V > > +--------+--------+ > > ??? | White | Black | Gnd > > +--------+--------+ > > +5.1V | Red | Blue | -12.1V > > +--------+--------+ > > +5.1V | Red | Black | Gnd > > +--------+--------+ > > Gnd | Black | Black | Gnd > > +=================+ > > > > The mystery is the White wire. The power supply label only lists 4 > > output voltages. The White wire appears to be routed to the Ethernet > > daughter board. The measured voltage appears that it might be floating > > slightly negative, somewhere around -1.5V when the Ethernet daughter > > board is installed and around -5V when it is removed. Maybe it is a > > high impedance earth ground connection? It appears to be connected to > > the shield of the Ethernet BNC, which measures around 1M-Ohm to the > > chassis ground when the power supply is disconnected from the main > > board, and around 0.75M-Ohm when the power supply is connected. > > > > > Thank you for that. Mine has no labels or anything. It is PC Board > with Digital, Side 1, Side 2 and a number I don't recognize on it. > I guess the -9V is the only odd one but you could easily get that > from a -12V line. I may get to fix it yet. For the unlabeled white wire this must be -9V return, such as say with the H7109-AA PSU used with the VAXstation 4000 VLC, the H7819-AA used with VAXstation 4000 60/90/etc. and storage expansions or the H7821-00 PSU used with several systems, where the -9V supply circuit is isolated and used, I believe, for serial line drivers/receivers. It might be worth checking. Maciej From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 18:13:58 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 16:13:58 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: References: <69989298-E1CB-47DE-9FCC-7A8F751CCC0F@comcast.net> <2ad2146b-2652-a916-4176-050f7943aa50@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 3:10 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/9/20 2:51 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:04 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > > wrote: > >> > >> I have a VXT-2000. It is broke. If I could find out what the voltage > >> and current requirements were and their positions on the power connector > >> I would replace it in a heartbeat. > >> > > > > For the VXT-2000 with an H7109-B the rated voltage and current values > > are printed right on the power supply label: > > > > +5.1V, 7.81A > > +12.1V, 0.62A > > -12.1V, 0.46A > > -9V, 0.2A > > > > Fixed width character pinout diagram: > > > > +=================+ > > -9V | Yellow | Orange | +12.1V > > +--------+--------+ > > ??? | White | Black | Gnd > > +--------+--------+ > > +5.1V | Red | Blue | -12.1V > > +--------+--------+ > > +5.1V | Red | Black | Gnd > > +--------+--------+ > > Gnd | Black | Black | Gnd > > +=================+ > > > > The mystery is the White wire. The power supply label only lists 4 > > output voltages. The White wire appears to be routed to the Ethernet > > daughter board. The measured voltage appears that it might be floating > > slightly negative, somewhere around -1.5V when the Ethernet daughter > > board is installed and around -5V when it is removed. Maybe it is a > > high impedance earth ground connection? It appears to be connected to > > the shield of the Ethernet BNC, which measures around 1M-Ohm to the > > chassis ground when the power supply is disconnected from the main > > board, and around 0.75M-Ohm when the power supply is connected. > > > > > Thank you for that. Mine has no labels or anything. It is PC Board > with Digital, Side 1, Side 2 and a number I don't recognize on it. > I guess the -9V is the only odd one but you could easily get that > from a -12V line. I may get to fix it yet. > > bill (I was going to change the subject line for this reply to reflect the VXT-2000 discussion but maybe it is already too late to do that without making message threading even worse?) Does your VXT-2000 look significantly different than the images on this page? Is the power supply in your VXT-2000 a bare board that is not fully enclosed? https://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/DEC_VXT2000 The power supply in my VXT-2000 matches the fully enclosed H7109-B power supply as shown in this image: https://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/images/b/bb/DEC_VXT2000_111543249570-2.jpg From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 18:40:24 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 17:40:24 -0600 Subject: Ever seen a Cromemco Cyclops in the wild? In-Reply-To: <20200609225309.65FBA4E6CA@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20200609225309.65FBA4E6CA@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 4:53 PM Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > so probably read the Cyclops article, decided that $25 was way > too much for one chip and never bothered. In 1975 the B2102 or C2102 in the lidded ceramic package was more expensive than the D2102 (CERDIP, frit seal, no die cavity lid), and far more expensive than the P2102 (plastic). The B2102 or C2102 in low volume sold for over $10 at the time, so $25 for one that had been manually de-lidded then fit with a transparent lid doesn't seem like it was too unreasonable. If you wanted to save a few bucks you could have bought a normal C2102 and replaced the lid yourself. Of course, the article didn't say that it was a 2102, but that was evident from the pinout. The A/B/J/K jumpering was needed because the topology of the 2102 and 2102A were different, which didn't matter in normal RAM applications. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jun 9 18:57:16 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 16:57:16 -0700 Subject: Was: PDP-8/A transformer hum Is: VXT-2000 stuff. In-Reply-To: References: <69989298-E1CB-47DE-9FCC-7A8F751CCC0F@comcast.net> <2ad2146b-2652-a916-4176-050f7943aa50@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <3ae0dee4-f260-ccf8-2ea6-dc22ec8bc195@jwsss.com> On 6/9/2020 11:51 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:04 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > For the VXT-2000 with an H7109-B the rated voltage and current values > are printed right on the power supply label: > > +5.1V, 7.81A > +12.1V, 0.62A > -12.1V, 0.46A > -9V, 0.2A > > Fixed width character pinout diagram: > > +=================+ > -9V | Yellow | Orange | +12.1V > +--------+--------+ > ??? | White | Black | Gnd > +--------+--------+ > +5.1V | Red | Blue | -12.1V > +--------+--------+ > +5.1V | Red | Black | Gnd > +--------+--------+ > Gnd | Black | Black | Gnd > +=================+ > > The mystery is the White wire. The power supply label only lists 4 > output voltages. The White wire appears to be routed to the Ethernet > daughter board. The measured voltage appears that it might be floating > slightly negative, somewhere around -1.5V when the Ethernet daughter > board is installed and around -5V when it is removed. Maybe it is a > high impedance earth ground connection? It appears to be connected to > the shield of the Ethernet BNC, which measures around 1M-Ohm to the > chassis ground when the power supply is disconnected from the main > board, and around 0.75M-Ohm when the power supply is connected. > As long as we are talking VXT-2000, I have this on file, figure it would be useful for future googling of the list if this were here as well.? May be a repeat of info from an earlier post, or maybe elsewhere. I didn't save the source of the info, but looks like someone named Matt Millman did it. The setup is as follows: HP Envy laptop running MOP boot daemon, connected to Lantronix LTX-C twisted pair ethernet to AUI converter (not the same as a twisted pair MAU). This is then connected to a cabletron coax MAU with a 10BASE5 vampire tap. The coax runs over to another MAU, which is connected via an AUI cable to my VXT2000. I didn't think of it, but it would have been nice to have a real DEC MAU on the VXT2000, I've got several DEC h4000's I could have used. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5T2GlAN2N4 http://tech.mattmillman.com/projects/10base5/ From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jun 9 19:13:34 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 20:13:34 -0400 Subject: Ever seen a Cromemco Cyclops in the wild? In-Reply-To: References: <20200609225309.65FBA4E6CA@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <0ff201d63ebb$fb5bc430$f2134c90$@verizon.net> No, I'm afraid not. I can tell you from both personal experience and from the designer (Terry Walker) that the chip is either a Mostek MK4008P-9 or an AMI S4008-9. I have used both chips. See my web page: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/cyclops/index.html Among other important features of those chips is the fact that the memory cells are laid out in a 32 by 32 square and that the cells are multi-transistor per cell. The multi-transistor design allows for non-destructive reads which is crucial for the design. Bill Sudbrink -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2020 7:40 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Ever seen a Cromemco Cyclops in the wild? On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 4:53 PM Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > so probably read the Cyclops article, decided that $25 was way > too much for one chip and never bothered. In 1975 the B2102 or C2102 in the lidded ceramic package was more expensive than the D2102 (CERDIP, frit seal, no die cavity lid), and far more expensive than the P2102 (plastic). The B2102 or C2102 in low volume sold for over $10 at the time, so $25 for one that had been manually de-lidded then fit with a transparent lid doesn't seem like it was too unreasonable. If you wanted to save a few bucks you could have bought a normal C2102 and replaced the lid yourself. Of course, the article didn't say that it was a 2102, but that was evident from the pinout. The A/B/J/K jumpering was needed because the topology of the 2102 and 2102A were different, which didn't matter in normal RAM applications. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jun 9 21:22:01 2020 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 02:22:01 +0000 Subject: Ever seen a Cromemco Cyclops in the wild? Message-ID: Bill, thanks in particular for the reference to the August 1976 Cromemco catalog. I definitely remember the Dazzler graphics on the cover but somehow had lost memory of the camera on the second to last page. Tim From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jun 9 22:41:28 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 20:41:28 -0700 Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4C905-C981-4124-AE75-6AD5103E65B6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 9, 2020, at 12:58 PM, David Brownlee wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 19:23, Zane Healy wrote: >> >> My main A3000 has a Picasso IV+, and a 10Mbit 10Base-2 card, this would be a seriously tempting update. I never got around to adding USB, and would like a better Network card. >> >> Do you have one of these? I?m afraid I haven?t been on the Amiga email lists, or boards for a *VERY* long time. > > I'm on the other side of the fence with a TT030, but I understand the > experience with them has been mixed from "everything that is supposed > to work does", to "some bits work but others don't, but the dev > releases updates which make more bits work". > > I do like that they open source the FPGA logic > https://github.com/mntmn/zz9000-fw and that it just works in a > standard Zorro slot? Any advice specific to starting up a TT030 that?s been idle for ~20 years? The only question with that system is, where is the monitor I used for it. One thing that impressed me about the ZZ9000 is that it apparently even works in an A500. I dug out the spare A3000, and *FINALLY* found my main A3000, it turns out it was hiding behind some stuff in my Darkroom. Both systems have batteries starting to go. That?s my next project. I think I might be lucky. The damage looks almost non-existant, definitely better than my Lisa 2 when I got it 20+ years ago. While looking for the main A3000, I dug out partial A500, it?s missing a CIA, and a Keyboard, as well as the top of the case. I also dug out the two A1200?s, one says it has bad video, the other a bad Alice (that?s the one that overheats). Thanks to my son?s laptop needing work recently, I know where my soldering iron is. :-) That was actually harder to find than the A3000. :-) Zane From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Jun 9 22:46:30 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 23:46:30 -0400 Subject: New drive for my 11/83.... Message-ID: Picked up a CDC 94166 ESDI disk on Ebay last week, arrived and sure enough it works. No errors either, so I can now give my 30+ year old Fujitsu 2322 a rest and load up rsx11m+ instead of 11/m 4.2 After formatting it on the MTI controller (MQD13) I set the first partition to 30mb and loaded up my RT11 5.7 backup from the TK50 onto it with no issues. Productive. If I can find my DEQNA and an AUI to wireless adapter I could get this thing up on the net..... From ethan at 757.org Tue Jun 9 23:06:45 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 00:06:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4C905-C981-4124-AE75-6AD5103E65B6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > Any advice specific to starting up a TT030 that?s been idle for ~20 > years? The only question with that system is, where is the monitor I > used for it. I think the TT030 should just go? The other easy thing about the TT030 is that it has a standard VGA connector. There is a special adapter that someone makes that allows it to do a much higher resoution ?ECL? output that is needed for running Unix on it. But for normal Atari stuff a VGA montior should do. On mine, I ended up using a SD2SCSI as the original drive sounded like a chop saw. I don't remember a battery inside but we should probably check on that and caps. Haven't done much with mine. I last used it with UNIX for the last VCF East, would like to setup a SD card with software that can take advantage of it's graphics and sound stuff. -- : Ethan O'Toole From rlloken at telus.net Tue Jun 9 23:53:52 2020 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 22:53:52 -0600 (MDT) Subject: DEC Alphaserver 4100 CPU fans Message-ID: So gentlemen, my Alphaserver 4100 shut itself down with a sad announcement about a dead CPU fan. I have a parts mule which has donated a CPU fan a couple years ago and I can take the second and last CPU fan from there but then I have no more fans. Can the CPU fan be obtained? Can they be rebuilt? The 4100 has a series of fans between the 3 power supply slots and the main backplane which I found could not be easily obtained so I tore them all apart and replaced the bearings with good results but I suspect that the lttle CPU fans will not respond so well to attempts at repair. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Jun 10 02:43:24 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 00:43:24 -0700 Subject: DEC Alphaserver 4100 CPU fans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/9/2020 9:53 PM, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > > > Can the CPU fan be obtained?? Can they be rebuilt? > > The 4100 has a series of fans between the 3 power supply slots and the > main backplane which I found could not be easily obtained so I tore them > all apart and replaced the bearings with good results but I suspect that > the lttle CPU fans will not respond so well to attempts at repair. The small bearings if they are bearing and not sleeve fans can possibly be had thru the guys who race things like matchbox cars.? There are really tiny ball and needle bearings around.? Can I tell you where now that I know you need them, of course not.? but I do have some really small bearings around. Micro Center has a huge collection of fans of all sorts when I go back to that area of their systems supplies, but I've had mixed success finding things with the search term engine they have.? They don't for instance have any way I've found to put in part numbers, or SKUs, so you have to guess at descriptions. But there are fans from 1" to about 3" which are pretty thin there. Also there is a huge amount of water cooling setups now, maybe you could go from fan to that?? Just a guess from left field.? And of course, not "DEC" which may count for your piece. thanks Jim From pat at vax11.net Wed Jun 10 10:03:17 2020 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 11:03:17 -0400 Subject: DEC Alphaserver 4100 CPU fans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you have a model number and/or pictures, we could probably figure out a modern replacement. The biggest things to try to match would be size, CFM, voltage, and the number of wires (for any PWM control and RPM sensor). Digikey seems to have a fairly good assortment of available fans. Pat On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 12:55 AM Richard Loken via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > So gentlemen, my Alphaserver 4100 shut itself down with a sad announcement > about a dead CPU fan. I have a parts mule which has donated a CPU fan a > couple years ago and I can take the second and last CPU fan from there but > then I have no more fans. > > Can the CPU fan be obtained? Can they be rebuilt? > > The 4100 has a series of fans between the 3 power supply slots and the > main backplane which I found could not be easily obtained so I tore them > all apart and replaced the bearings with good results but I suspect that > the lttle CPU fans will not respond so well to attempts at repair. > -- > Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we > wear, > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" > ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black > > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jun 10 10:20:20 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 11:20:20 -0400 Subject: Ever seen a Cromemco Cyclops in the wild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10a001d63f3a$a7eba660$f7c2f320$@verizon.net> Hi Tim, No problem. I'll use this as an excuse to put a want ad in cctalk: I have a working example of everything in the August 1976 Cromemco catalog EXCEPT the EXC-2 extender board on the back cover. I would really like to complete this little "sub-collection" of mine. Consequently, I would probably pay a lot more for one in good shape than it's really worth (after all, it's just a passive extender board). Just sayin' Bill Sudbrink -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Shoppa, Tim via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2020 10:22 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Ever seen a Cromemco Cyclops in the wild? Bill, thanks in particular for the reference to the August 1976 Cromemco catalog. I definitely remember the Dazzler graphics on the cover but somehow had lost memory of the camera on the second to last page. Tim -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ethan at 757.org Wed Jun 10 10:32:59 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 11:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: References: <202006091454.059Ess5A40763448@floodgap.com> <6B09E0DC-EDB7-44BB-9950-8EF0907921EE@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > use that instead - the T model looks a bit too much like a crazy mid-90's PC > for my tastes (although the SCSI's nice). The 4000T has IDE! I have one of those CF card to IDE boards on a back expansion slot, allowing it to be removed. > Thoughts on this, incidentally? https://www.ebay.com/itm/254545704933 > It's just an empty case, not even a complete machine, which claims to have > sold. No PSU, no "middle" drive bay hardware. I wonder if a friend of the > seller "bought" it and it was just a trick to drive up prices or something - > $550 seems ridiculous for an empty box, but I don't "do" ebay and don't know > how crazy people are or what kind of scams go on. That is crazy. To buy something to "mark to market" the price real high ... you would still have to pay the crazy eBay fees. There was a late model Adlib card in original box (not sealed) that went for $3900 that had people scratching their head. But who knows. I think a Nintendo game went for $300K. Some people have way more money than I for this hobby that's for sure :-) Pinball machines / arcades are the same. - Ethan From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Jun 10 11:05:16 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 09:05:16 -0700 Subject: Amiga Vendors? Message-ID: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> I found AmigaKit.com in the UK, are there any Amiga vendors left in the US? I need to order some parts, and not only do I not remember who I used to use in the US, I assume they?re gone. Zane From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 11:37:33 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 10:37:33 -0600 Subject: Ever seen a Cromemco Cyclops in the wild? In-Reply-To: <0ff201d63ebb$fb5bc430$f2134c90$@verizon.net> References: <20200609225309.65FBA4E6CA@mx2.ezwind.net> <0ff201d63ebb$fb5bc430$f2134c90$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 6:14 PM William Sudbrink wrote: > No, I'm afraid not. I can tell you from both personal experience and from > the > designer (Terry Walker) that the chip is either a Mostek MK4008P-9 or an > AMI > S4008-9. I have used both chips. See my web page: > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/cyclops/index.html You obviously must be correct, and use of a DRAM makes much more sense than an SRAM. It's possible that an SRAM could be made to work as an image sensor, but it would not be anywhere near as sensitive as a DRAM. When, back in 1975, I compared the pinout to the data books I had on hand, and observed that it exactly matched the 2102, and didn't search any further. I had no idea that the MK4006 and MK4008 dynamic RAMs happen to have the same pinout as the 2102 static RAM. Intel's own 1K DRAMs (1103 PMOS, 2105 NMOS) do not share that pinout. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jun 10 11:49:16 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 12:49:16 -0400 Subject: Ever seen a Cromemco Cyclops in the wild? In-Reply-To: References: <20200609225309.65FBA4E6CA@mx2.ezwind.net> <0ff201d63ebb$fb5bc430$f2134c90$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <10b701d63f47$1476b480$3d641d80$@verizon.net> The really interesting thing (to me anyway) is just how it works. The cells are 3T1C (3 transistor, 1 capacitor). There?s a good diagram here: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/477173/the-detailed-working-steps-of-the-dram-3t1c-cell I assumed that the photons were just allowing charge to escape across the capacitor. Terry corrected me. The transistor labeled ?T2? in the above diagram is what is light sensitive. When struck by photons, T2 allows charge to leak to ground, discharging the cap and ?flipping? the bit to zero. Bill From: Eric Smith [mailto:spacewar at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 12:38 PM To: William Sudbrink; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Ever seen a Cromemco Cyclops in the wild? On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 6:14 PM William Sudbrink wrote: No, I'm afraid not. I can tell you from both personal experience and from the designer (Terry Walker) that the chip is either a Mostek MK4008P-9 or an AMI S4008-9. I have used both chips. See my web page: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/cyclops/index.html You obviously must be correct, and use of a DRAM makes much more sense than an SRAM. It's possible that an SRAM could be made to work as an image sensor, but it would not be anywhere near as sensitive as a DRAM. When, back in 1975, I compared the pinout to the data books I had on hand, and observed that it exactly matched the 2102, and didn't search any further. I had no idea that the MK4006 and MK4008 dynamic RAMs happen to have the same pinout as the 2102 static RAM. Intel's own 1K DRAMs (1103 PMOS, 2105 NMOS) do not share that pinout. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Jun 10 12:48:14 2020 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 12:48:14 -0500 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please Message-ID: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> OK. the keyboard is working properly as far as I can tell, data is going in and out, and I even swapped it for the keyboard on my VT220 and the same symptoms persisted. I just verified all four ROMs on the T11, and the ROM for the 8085, against the images I found on the MAME site. So far so good. One interesting finding - two of the lines (DAL3 and DAL1) on the T11 do change states several times, but once the self-test has crashed, they stay high with almost one volt of "wiggle". All the other data/address lines are either high, low or switching between a good 1 and 0. There are several places that the bus connects, including the ROMs, 1-bit dynamic RAMs and various octal latches & bidirectional buffers. I connected a 10 ma VOM between each line and ground (to make sure a low-resistance path (such as in the 'LS245 at E55) wasn't forcing it high somehow. All of the DAL15-0 lines requires more than 1.9 ma to bring it to ground (well, 50 mv burden at 250 mv full scale, anyway). That leaves the unlikely possibility that one of the octal TTL devices, or ROMs. has developed a weird internal pathway that only interferes with DAL3 & 1 on some bit patterns, but not all the time. Seems like a zebra rather than a horse. The only part that drives multiple low-order DAL lines at once besides the E19-22 ROMs is the E55 LS245. The T11 spec sheet says that a good logic 0 (<0.4 volt) should be possible with up to 3.2 ma sink... So I suspect the T11 has a couple of bad output pull-down transistors on those lines. Anyone got a spare T11 chip I can buy or borrow? Or send you mine to plug into your board and see if it fails the same way? :) thanks. From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jun 10 13:08:08 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 13:08:08 -0500 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <00dc01d63f52$195446b0$4bfcd410$@com> I have a few basic Amiga machines which hopefully will be listed soon. Also have a couple of spare keyboards. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane Healy via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 11:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Amiga Vendors? I found AmigaKit.com in the UK, are there any Amiga vendors left in the US? I need to order some parts, and not only do I not remember who I used to use in the US, I assume they?re gone. Zane -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 14:06:40 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 21:06:40 +0200 Subject: TU58 dump tool on Linux? Message-ID: Is there anyone that has already built a tool to dump TU58-tapes on a Linux machine? I have the drive of course. There is PUTR. But it is DOS only and is written in assembler so it cannot be ported easily. The other option is running RT11 on a PDP-11, but then there is the hassle of getting the dumps off the RT11 file system. It is probably not too difficult to use relevant parts of the various TU58 Unix implementations out there to do something quickly, but if someone has already done it, it would be great to not reinvent the wheel. I have approximately 80 11/730 and 11/750 console and diag tapes that need reading. /Mattis From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 14:45:58 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 15:45:58 -0400 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 12:05 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I found AmigaKit.com in the UK, are there any Amiga vendors left in the US? I need to order some parts, and not only do I not remember who I used to use in the US, I assume they?re gone. I still have a load of GG2 Bus+ boards I need to test and bag (and to buy a new box of Zorro-II-sized anti-static bags) and a few loose Amiga parts, but those are all bench spares from a defunct Commodore dealer, not the sort of thing I have enough quantity to go (back) into business with. -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 10 11:54:17 2020 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 11:54:17 -0500 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> At 11:05 AM 6/10/2020, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >I found AmigaKit.com in the UK, are there any Amiga vendors left in the US? I need to order some parts, and not only do I not remember who I used to use in the US, I assume they???re gone. Geeze, we're not that old. You make it sound like we should be dead by now. - John From john at forecast.name Wed Jun 10 16:30:10 2020 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:30:10 -0400 Subject: TU58 dump tool on Linux? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2E0CEA4D-CDDB-4029-91E2-6FABFC09E1EB@forecast.name> On Jun 10, 2020, at 3:06 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > Is there anyone that has already built a tool to dump TU58-tapes on a Linux > machine? I have the drive of course. > > There is PUTR. But it is DOS only and is written in assembler so it cannot > be ported easily. The other option is running RT11 on a PDP-11, but then > there is the hassle of getting the dumps off the RT11 file system. > You could try my ?fsio? utility from the SIMH simtools repository: I originally wrote it to read/write SIMH disk images in various formats (including RT11). I?ve never tried it with a tape drive but if it looks like a block device it should work. John. > > It is probably not too difficult to use relevant parts of the various TU58 > Unix implementations out there to do something quickly, but if someone has > already done it, it would be great to not reinvent the wheel. > > I have approximately 80 11/730 and 11/750 console and diag tapes that > need reading. > > /Mattis From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jun 10 16:31:35 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 16:31:35 -0500 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> References: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> On 06/10/2020 12:48 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > > That leaves the unlikely possibility that one of the octal > TTL devices, or ROMs. has developed a weird internal > pathway that only interferes with DAL3 & 1 on some bit > patterns, but not all the time. Seems like a zebra rather > than a horse. The only part that drives multiple low-order > DAL lines at once besides the E19-22 ROMs is the E55 LS245. > Quite possible that this could happen when a specific device is driving the bus -- or that NOBODY is driving the bus in that state. When it is stuck at the ~1V level, try a resistor of about 1 K to ground on one of those lines. If it moves several hundred mV lower, it is a TTL open circuit. If it doesn't change at all, it is a bus contention (TWO drivers driving at once). Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jun 10 16:33:25 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 16:33:25 -0500 Subject: TU58 dump tool on Linux? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EE151A5.2010902@pico-systems.com> On 06/10/2020 02:06 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Is there anyone that has already built a tool to dump TU58-tapes on a Linux > machine? I have the drive of course. > > There is PUTR. But it is DOS only and is written in assembler so it cannot > be ported easily. The other option is running RT11 on a PDP-11, but then > there is the hassle of getting the dumps off the RT11 file system. > > > Wait, isn't a TU58 actually connected by plain serial port? That should be fairly easy to write a dump program for. Jon From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Jun 10 17:04:32 2020 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:04:32 -0500 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> References: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <3f6abaa9-6881-9758-dbcf-0d3aefafbb4c@centurytel.net> On 6/10/20 4:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 06/10/2020 12:48 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: >> >> That leaves the unlikely possibility that one of the octal TTL >> devices, or ROMs. has developed a weird internal pathway that only >> interferes with DAL3 & 1 on some bit patterns, but not all the time. >> Seems like a zebra rather than a horse. The only part that drives >> multiple low-order DAL lines at once besides the E19-22 ROMs is the >> E55 LS245. >> > Quite possible that this could happen when a specific device is > driving the bus -- or that NOBODY is driving the bus in that state. > When it is stuck at the ~1V level, try a resistor of about 1 K to > ground on one of those lines.? If it moves several hundred mV lower, > it is a TTL open circuit.? If it doesn't change at all, it is a bus > contention (TWO drivers driving at once). > > Jon Yes, I've been experimenting with this. It's not 1 volt, it's 4 to 3 volts and back again at the rate the lines should be switching :) If it were contention caused by the LS245, the short circuit current would be far higher. I've also tried strapping the OE\ on the '245 high with no change. I removed all four ROMs and if there's bus contention it is not coming from them. Unfortunately the USART and UART are not in sockets, but no change when their chip selects are forced invalid. Even more interestingly, I have discovered that when the T11 is crashed completely (e.g. after I slip with a scope probe on the DAL or other lines), if I connect DAL3 when at a steady high, through a 1K to ground, results in a 0-3 volt output switching at the instruction cycle rate with a slow risetime and a rapid fall! That is not possible if the bus were tristated or in contention... There has to be something in the T11 internal drivers that is latching up somehow. It would really help to have another T11 aka 310 aka 21-17311 ALSO aka KR1807VM1 (Russian clone) to try - but apparently the Atari enthusiasts have snapped them all up and I refuse to pay over $100 for a tested working one on Ebay! From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 17:04:38 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 16:04:38 -0600 Subject: TU58 dump tool on Linux? In-Reply-To: <2E0CEA4D-CDDB-4029-91E2-6FABFC09E1EB@forecast.name> References: <2E0CEA4D-CDDB-4029-91E2-6FABFC09E1EB@forecast.name> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 3:30 PM John Forecast via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > You could try my ?fsio? utility from the SIMH simtools repository: > I originally wrote it to read/write SIMH disk images in various formats > (including RT11). I?ve > never tried it with a tape drive but if it looks like a block device it > should work. > I get a 404 when I click on that link. I think you may have meant: https://github.com/simh/simtools/tree/master/converters/fsio That looks like it would be useful to me for a lot of other things, but probably not for reading from actual TU58 drives. A real TU58 drive hooked up to a system running Linux does not look anything like a block device. Linux has no idea what it is; it's just something hooked up to a serial port. To read tape blocks, it would be up to a user space program to send the TU58 the right MRSP commands and interpret the responses. There are a number of programs that solve the opposite problem, and make a PC pretend to be a TU58, but those don't help when what you want to do is talk to an actual TU58. I haven't seen a program for that. Perhaps some code from the NetBSD kernel could be useful, but I'm guessing that dealing with that would be more trouble than just writing a new program. There are some undocumented MRSP commands, but the documented commands should be sufficient to read a tape. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 17:10:56 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:10:56 -0500 Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: References: <202006091454.059Ess5A40763448@floodgap.com> <6B09E0DC-EDB7-44BB-9950-8EF0907921EE@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <4c5c67e1-1f16-f3fb-44d6-6a2984b43a23@gmail.com> On 6/10/20 10:32 AM, Ethan O'Toole wrote: >> use that instead - the T model looks a bit too much like a crazy mid-90's >> PC for my tastes (although the SCSI's nice). > > The 4000T has IDE! I have one of those CF card to IDE boards on a back > expansion slot, allowing it to be removed. Well, it has IDE *as well*. ;-) Mine's running a SCSI hard disk and CDROM drive. It's a 2GB disk with a wide interface, incidentally, then a narrow-to-wide adapter affixed to that to allow it to be used in the machine - I suppose it's possible it left the factory like that, but far more likely that a previous owner upgraded it. I've not been able to find anything that tells me what stock 4000T storage options were (although the Wikipedia entry for the 4000 desktop claims those just had a 120MB disk) >> Thoughts on this, incidentally? https://www.ebay.com/itm/254545704933 >> It's just an empty case, not even a complete machine, which claims to >> have sold. No PSU, no "middle" drive bay hardware. I wonder if a friend >> of the seller "bought" it and it was just a trick to drive up prices or >> something - $550 seems ridiculous for an empty box, but I don't "do" ebay >> and don't know how crazy people are or what kind of scams go on. > > That is crazy. To buy something to "mark to market" the price real high ... > you would still have to pay the crazy eBay fees. Yeah, it's weird. Mind you I was doing some poking around and A4000 desktop/tower parts prices seem to generally be insanely high across the board. cheers Jules From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 10 19:25:16 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 20:25:16 -0400 Subject: TU58 dump tool on Linux? In-Reply-To: <5EE151A5.2010902@pico-systems.com> References: <5EE151A5.2010902@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <0195ADD7-8270-4D17-9F2F-2F080C96C80A@comcast.net> > On Jun 10, 2020, at 5:33 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 06/10/2020 02:06 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> Is there anyone that has already built a tool to dump TU58-tapes on a Linux >> machine? I have the drive of course. >> >> There is PUTR. But it is DOS only and is written in assembler so it cannot >> be ported easily. The other option is running RT11 on a PDP-11, but then >> there is the hassle of getting the dumps off the RT11 file system. >> > Wait, isn't a TU58 actually connected by plain serial port? That should be fairly easy to write a > dump program for. > > Jon Yes, it connects to a serial port. But on that serial port it speaks some sort of protocol that implements a block access service. So what you actually have to do is implement that protocol. I have never looked at it (never wanted to touch a TU58), but it's been done, so there's probably code that can be used. With that, the next step is to tie it to an implementation of the RT11 file system, which is a simple matter. paul From macro at linux-mips.org Wed Jun 10 22:02:48 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 04:02:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <20200529155925.437BA13C0347@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200529184312.EA7164E745@mx2.ezwind.net> <1042ba31-ddc1-f4c1-c78e-f477a09a15de@jetnet.ab.ca> <1402167737.558071745.1590783909472.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <70D235D6-F9DF-4A82-8BD2-D702A9D299AF@comcast.net> <0664ff5f-8985-4003-78f9-066df00e5de7@sydex.com> <618aaf9e9841113cf8df628cf9049cf3@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 May 2020, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: > C > C CHANGE THE VALUE OF 4 > C > > CALL INC(4) > WRITE (*, 30) 4 > 30 FORMAT ('2+2=',I4) > END > > SUBROUTINE INC(I) > I = I + 1 > END > > -------- OUTPUT > 2+2= 5 Hmm, as a matter of interest I fed this program to current trunk GCC and with an x86/Linux system it crashes at the incrementation of the literal, because the value has been assigned to a read-only memory segment. With a RV64/Linux system it works as expected as the compiler gives priority to data assignment to the small data area over the read-only attribute, but I'd call it luck rather than intent. GCC supports legacy Fortran code, so I have filed PR fortran/95631 to track this bug, at: . Let's see what emerges. Thanks for sharing this peculiarity with us! Maciej From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Jun 10 22:08:42 2020 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 22:08:42 -0500 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> References: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 6/10/20 4:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 06/10/2020 12:48 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: >> >> That leaves the unlikely possibility that one of the octal TTL >> devices, or ROMs. has developed a weird internal pathway that only >> interferes with DAL3 & 1 on some bit patterns, but not all the time. >> Seems like a zebra rather than a horse. The only part that drives >> multiple low-order DAL lines at once besides the E19-22 ROMs is the >> E55 LS245. >> > Quite possible that this could happen when a specific device is > driving the bus -- or that NOBODY is driving the bus in that state. > When it is stuck at the ~1V level, try a resistor of about 1 K to > ground on one of those lines.? If it moves several hundred mV lower, > it is a TTL open circuit.? If it doesn't change at all, it is a bus > contention (TWO drivers driving at once). > > Jon After much Googling, I discovered/remembered that the RQDX3 M7555 floppy controller card in my PDP-11/23+ system has a T11 CPU on board! So I pulled the card and popped the T11 into the VT240. Guess what - the terminal still doesn't work!! Craptastic. At least it's not the most expensive and rarest part on the board... but now I'm really stumped. This isn't my first rodeo - in fact back in the 80's I used to design microprocessor systems for a living, and have continued to keep my hand in repairing my video arcade games and a PDP-8 system, among other projects. Meanwhile... the T11 DAL lines are only connected to a few parts that can drive onto that local bus. Time to have a look at the glue logic for the DRAM selects. Although the ROM chip selects seem to work, maybe the DRAM or something else actually IS conflicting despite the mixed signals (pun intended) ;) Time to break out the logic analyzer, and start burning pairs of 27256 EPROMs with test programs. Maybe initially just fill them with NOP's (000240 octal) with a jump to zero at the end! From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Jun 10 23:04:21 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 21:04:21 -0700 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 10, 2020, at 12:45 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 12:05 PM Zane Healy via cctalk > wrote: >> I found AmigaKit.com in the UK, are there any Amiga vendors left in the US? I need to order some parts, and not only do I not remember who I used to use in the US, I assume they?re gone. > > I still have a load of GG2 Bus+ boards I need to test and bag (and to > buy a new box of Zorro-II-sized anti-static bags) and a few loose > Amiga parts, but those are all bench spares from a defunct Commodore > dealer, not the sort of thing I have enough quantity to go (back) into > business with. I was wondering if you were still had GG2 Bus+ Boards, like you did 20 years ago. Right now I?m looking for a couple replacement batteries for the A3000 (need to swap that out on both systems). AmigaKit sells a nice Lithium adapter. I also want to get an IDE-to-CF adapter, and a holder for the Gotek. Looks like they don?t have the Gotek holders. Who knows what else I might need, once I dig deeper. I have Amiga OS 1.x, 2.x, 3.1, and 3.9. I was very surprised to learn that 3.1.4 was released a couple years ago, and 3.2 is well underway. Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Jun 10 23:08:46 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 21:08:46 -0700 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> On Jun 10, 2020, at 9:54 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > At 11:05 AM 6/10/2020, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> I found AmigaKit.com in the UK, are there any Amiga vendors left in the US? I need to order some parts, and not only do I not remember who I used to use in the US, I assume they???re gone. > > Geeze, we're not that old. You make it sound like we should be dead by now. > > - John John, IIRC, you?ve been on this list about as long as me. Think about how long we?ve been on this list, we are *that* old. Just not ?should be dead? old. :-) What I?m referring too is that in the US the Amiga hasn?t been a viable commercial platform for nearly 30 years. Looking back 20+ years ago, we really only had 3 or so main dealers supporting the Amiga market. One of those was the vendor that had the Commodore 65?s (I think that was Software Hut). I?ve tried googling up anyone selling Amiga stuff in the US, and had minimal success. I just made my largest Classic Computer related (as opposed to Retro Gaming) order in close to 15 years. :-) Now to see how long AmigaKit takes. Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Jun 10 23:14:59 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 21:14:59 -0700 Subject: Amiga Joke of the Century Message-ID: Tuesday night I was reading up to see what it might take to revive either of my Amiga 1200?s. As it happens, both appear to have fairly common failure modes. In reading up on the dead video, I learned that it?s often on the Composite Out, but not the monitor. I bought these two systems around ?97/98. I plugged the one with the dead video into the Monitor I?m using, and proceeded to use it for about an hour and a half. It works great with the Gotek floppy emulator. On a whim, earlier today, when I placed the order with AmigaKit for A3000 batteries, I included the hardware needed to put a IDE-to-CF interface in both the A600 & an A1200, PLUS, a second Gotek. :-) It looks like I?m going to need them. :-) Zane From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 02:29:05 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:29:05 +0200 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: References: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: torsdag 11 juni 2020 skrev Charles via cctalk : > > On 6/10/20 4:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> On 06/10/2020 12:48 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: >> >>> >>> That leaves the unlikely possibility that one of the octal TTL devices, >>> or ROMs. has developed a weird internal pathway that only interferes with >>> DAL3 & 1 on some bit patterns, but not all the time. Seems like a zebra >>> rather than a horse. The only part that drives multiple low-order DAL lines >>> at once besides the E19-22 ROMs is the E55 LS245. >>> >>> Quite possible that this could happen when a specific device is driving >> the bus -- or that NOBODY is driving the bus in that state. When it is >> stuck at the ~1V level, try a resistor of about 1 K to ground on one of >> those lines. If it moves several hundred mV lower, it is a TTL open >> circuit. If it doesn't change at all, it is a bus contention (TWO drivers >> driving at once). >> >> Jon >> > > After much Googling, I discovered/remembered that the RQDX3 M7555 floppy > controller card in my PDP-11/23+ system has a T11 CPU on board! > > So I pulled the card and popped the T11 into the VT240. Guess what - the > terminal still doesn't work!! Craptastic. At least it's not the most > expensive and rarest part on the board... but now I'm really stumped. This > isn't my first rodeo - in fact back in the 80's I used to design > microprocessor systems for a living, and have continued to keep my hand in > repairing my video arcade games and a PDP-8 system, among other projects. > > Meanwhile... the T11 DAL lines are only connected to a few parts that can > drive onto that local bus. Time to have a look at the glue logic for the > DRAM selects. Although the ROM chip selects seem to work, maybe the DRAM or > something else actually IS conflicting despite the mixed signals (pun > intended) ;) > > Time to break out the logic analyzer, and start burning pairs of 27256 > EPROMs with test programs. Maybe initially just fill them with NOP's > (000240 octal) with a jump to zero at the end! Now that you know the T11 is good I think it a good idea to attach a logic analyzer on the bus. I would then disassemble the ROM code and match that with the logic analyzer execution trace. Then it should be possible to find out what is going on. If one can rely on the fault code on the keyboard it is able to pass tests 0 to 4 successfully. Of course I have no idea what these test really do but assuming they do some more than advanced things I doubt that they would work if there are severe bus contention. If that would be the case I think the system would fail quite soon rather than on test 5. A guess is that this is a memory problem. Good luck! /Mattis From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 02:44:47 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 03:44:47 -0400 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 12:04 AM Zane Healy wrote: > > On Jun 10, 2020, at 12:45 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I still have a load of GG2 Bus+ boards I need to test and bag... > > I was wondering if you were still had GG2 Bus+ Boards, like you did 20 years ago. I probably have a lifetime supply given the steep drop-off in sales after 1998. I sold a couple at VCF Midwest a few years ago, but demand is low. > I have Amiga OS 1.x, 2.x, 3.1, and 3.9. I was very surprised to learn that 3.1.4 was released a couple years ago, and 3.2 is well underway. I'm definitely behind the curve there. I have a working A3000 or two with 3.0 but I never upgraded past that. I need to finish the recap on my A3630 and A3640 CPU boards and I need to fix Varta damage to my A4000 motherboard. I still have some working A1000s and A500s and at least one working A2000... plenty of toys, just not the newest ones. Feel free to ping me if you would want a GG2 Bus+. They aren't as attractive for Ethernet as they once were since they only work with 10Mbps ISA cards. They still work fine for adding serial ports and parallel printer ports, freeing up the internal parallel port for PLIP or a digitizer. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 02:51:47 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 03:51:47 -0400 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 12:08 AM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > What I?m referring too is that in the US the Amiga hasn?t been a viable commercial platform for nearly 30 years. I was using my A3000 every day through 1997, and only stopped because I got a sweet deal on an A4000 in NZ and brought it home (I did have to swap the PSU, but that went fine). I'd say the Amiga really lost its shine around 20 years ago, about the time Linux was getting serious and Windows 98 dominated the desktop. > Looking back 20+ years ago, we really only had 3 or so main dealers supporting the Amiga market. It was just over 25 years ago that I bought out the service department of Earthrise Micro Systems, a large Commodore dealer in central Ohio, as they were closing down. Not too long before that, we had three dealers locally, Earthrise and two smaller shops. By 1995, they were all gone, or at least stopped carrying any Amiga gear. -ethan From julf at julf.com Thu Jun 11 04:01:43 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:01:43 +0200 Subject: Duplicate messages Message-ID: <37b17843-9ea5-fcc0-f432-9ab090367bbe@julf.com> Hi! Anyone else getting duplicate messages from this list? I get 2 copies of most (but not all) messages, with the second copy often arriving significantly later. Julf From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jun 11 04:35:51 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:35:51 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Duplicate messages In-Reply-To: <37b17843-9ea5-fcc0-f432-9ab090367bbe@julf.com> Message-ID: <01RLY18AQE6E91VRK3@beyondthepale.ie> > Hi! > > Anyone else getting duplicate messages from this list? I get 2 copies of > most (but not all) messages, with the second copy often arriving > significantly later. > > Julf > In my experience, the only way to avoid duplicates under the current setup is to subscribe to the cctalk view of the list and to have everyone post only to cctalk. I think many others have worked this out too because very few of us post to cctech now. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Thu Jun 11 04:40:34 2020 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:40:34 +0200 Subject: Duplicate messages In-Reply-To: <37b17843-9ea5-fcc0-f432-9ab090367bbe@julf.com> References: <37b17843-9ea5-fcc0-f432-9ab090367bbe@julf.com> Message-ID: <5f58db33-eb8f-1839-33c7-de017ab868df@ljw.me.uk> I think you might be subscribed to both cctalk and cctech. So you get the cctalk message immediately, and the cctech one when it's moderated. At the moment the lists are largely the same since everyone is good at not posting off-topic stuff. On 11/06/20 11:01 am, Johan Helsingius via cctech wrote: > Hi! > > Anyone else getting duplicate messages from this list? I get 2 copies of > most (but not all) messages, with the second copy often arriving > significantly later. > > Julf > -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +41(0)79 926 1036 http://www.ljw.me.uk From julf at julf.com Thu Jun 11 05:30:14 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:30:14 +0200 Subject: Duplicate messages In-Reply-To: <01RLY18AQE6E91VRK3@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RLY18AQE6E91VRK3@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <5fc7323a-3d74-4f40-6289-65a6eaaa7a75@julf.com> On 11-06-2020 11:35, Peter Coghlan via cctech wrote: > In my experience, the only way to avoid duplicates under the current setup > is to subscribe to the cctalk view of the list and to have everyone post > only to cctalk. I think many others have worked this out too because very > few of us post to cctech now. Ah! OK, will do that! Thanks! Julf From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 05:58:10 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:58:10 +0200 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 09:52, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > I'd say the Amiga really lost its shine around 20 years ago, about the > time Linux was getting serious and Windows 98 dominated the desktop. Unfortunately, yes, I think you're right. Ditto the Acorn RISC OS platform -- I know, rare in the USA, but the origin of the ARM chip, so of historical importance. 1998 is when Acorn closed its workstations division, just before the Risc PC 2, codenamed Phoebe, was launched. http://www.beebware.com/beebware/press/200998sp.html The original RISC PC had 2 processor slots, but the 2nd was intended for co-processors, such as an x86-32 chip which allowed RISC OS to run DOS or Windows 3 (or a limited version of Win95) in a window on the RISC OS desktop. There was also a 3rd party multiprocessor board, the Hydra from Simtech, but the appearance of the DEC-designed StrongARM killed that off -- one 200MHz StrongARM was performance competitive with half a dozen ~25MHz ARM710 processors. http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/32bit_UpgradesH2Z/Simtec_Hydra.html Among other improvements, including PCI slots, the Risc PC 2 supported 2 ARM CPUs in SMP. Acorn was working on a new OS that might have supported SMP, which RISC OS did not and still does not. https://archive.is/20130420024500/http://www.computeractive.co.uk/pcw/news/1924363/new-acorn-mini-os Windows 95 wasn't a great OS, but it was good enough and ran on COTS x86 kit, supporting almost all hardware and software out there. NT 4 wasn't perfect either, but was just as easy to use and very solid if you could afford to buy and build the hardware to run the OS. Between them, these spelled the end of the Amiga, the Acorn RISC machines, BeOS, and very nearly for the Mac. At the time, I wished that Acorn did a decent modern laptop. ARMs ran much cooler than late-1990s x86 chips, and RISC OS was perfectly capable of handling the late-1990s internet -- web, email, instant messenging, etc., with good office productivity apps, image editing and so on. A RISC OS laptop could have been thinner, lighter, cooler-running and with a much longer battery life than a 486 or Pentium laptop. (I don't think anyone ever made Pentium Pro laptops, did they?) An out did occur to me about 20 years later: BeOS on a twin-CPU or even quad-CPU ARM workstation would have been a joy. Around then, CPUs were often the single most expensive component in a computer, and drew the most power. ARM boxes circumvented both of these. https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/55562.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 06:41:10 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:41:10 -0500 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <29f5c23a-a717-6982-d103-9c220e0fcae6@gmail.com> On 6/11/20 5:58 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 09:52, Ethan Dicks via cctalk > wrote: >> >> I'd say the Amiga really lost its shine around 20 years ago, about the >> time Linux was getting serious and Windows 98 dominated the desktop. > > Unfortunately, yes, I think you're right. The 4000T that I have was built in May of '96, and it amazes me that there was any kind of market for it in light of how widespread PCs on the desktop had become by that time. > The original RISC PC had 2 processor slots, but the 2nd was intended > for co-processors, such as an x86-32 chip which allowed RISC OS to run > DOS or Windows 3 (or a limited version of Win95) in a window on the > RISC OS desktop. I had a StrongARM-based machine with a 486dx4-100 co-processor; it was a really nice system, and plenty responsive enough for the time, but I never really got on with RISC OS as an operating system. It's a shame Acorn never for ARX off the ground. > There was also a 3rd party multiprocessor board, the Hydra from > Simtech I actually have one of those still (which will probably need a home one day as I no longer have any hardware that supports it). I got it from somewhere back in my "collect all things Acorn-related" days, but I don't think I ever even plugged it in. cheers Jules From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Jun 11 07:14:36 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:14:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <20200529155925.437BA13C0347@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200529184312.EA7164E745@mx2.ezwind.net> <1042ba31-ddc1-f4c1-c78e-f477a09a15de@jetnet.ab.ca> <1402167737.558071745.1590783909472.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <70D235D6-F9DF-4A82-8BD2-D702A9D299AF@comcast.net> <0664ff5f-8985-4003-78f9-066df00e5de7@sydex.com> <618aaf9e9841113cf8df628cf9049cf3@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 2020, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > GCC supports legacy Fortran code, so I have filed PR fortran/95631 to > track this bug, at: . > Let's see what emerges. So the response from GCC Fortran experts is as follows: "[...] Yes, old compiler did dumb things, because it was/is difficult to detect this violation of the Fortran standards. Note, these prohibitions are on the programmer. "F66 8.4.2 "If an actual argument corresponds to a dummy argument that is defined or redefined in the referenced subprogram, the actual argument must be a variable name, an array element name, or an array name. "F77 15.9.2 "Actual arguments may be constants, symbolic names of constants, function references, expressions involving operators, and expressions enclosed in parentheses if and only if the associated dummy argument is a variable that is not defined during execution of the referenced external procedure." My conclusion has therefore been that this must have been a peculiarity of individual compiler implementations, in particular because numerous computer systems do not support memory protection and have no way to mark a segment read-only, and may otherwise either not support instrumentation at all or it can be disabled for performance reasons. Some implementers may have indeed gone to great lengths to support this peculiarity to keep software running that has been written for computer systems affected by this limitation, but by no means it appears standard in terms of the language definition. FWIW, Maciej From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jun 11 07:36:11 2020 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:36:11 -0700 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <20200529155925.437BA13C0347@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200529184312.EA7164E745@mx2.ezwind.net> <1042ba31-ddc1-f4c1-c78e-f477a09a15de@jetnet.ab.ca> <1402167737.558071745.1590783909472.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <70D235D6-F9DF-4A82-8BD2-D702A9D299AF@comcast.net> <0664ff5f-8985-4003-78f9-066df00e5de7@sydex.com> <618aaf9e9841113cf8df628cf9049cf3@sydex.com> Message-ID: I stand corrected. -- Eric Korpela korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu AST:7731^29u18e3 From abs at absd.org Thu Jun 11 07:45:32 2020 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:45:32 +0100 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 11:58, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > There was also a 3rd party multiprocessor board, the Hydra from > Simtech, but the appearance of the DEC-designed StrongARM killed that > off -- one 200MHz StrongARM was performance competitive with half a > dozen ~25MHz ARM710 processors. > > http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/32bit_UpgradesH2Z/Simtec_Hydra.html The big issue with the Hydra was its lack of cache coherency between processors, which made conventional SMP somewhat... challenging. You could do very cool multiprocessor stuff with it, just not in a conventional SMP capable OS (I remember talking to someone trying to use it under NetBSD at the time :) David From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 08:58:24 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:58:24 +0200 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: <29f5c23a-a717-6982-d103-9c220e0fcae6@gmail.com> References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> <29f5c23a-a717-6982-d103-9c220e0fcae6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 13:41, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > The 4000T that I have was built in May of '96, and it amazes me that there > was any kind of market for it in light of how widespread PCs on the desktop > had become by that time. Agreed. VideoToasters might have been the main one, perhaps? > I had a StrongARM-based machine with a 486dx4-100 co-processor; it was a > really nice system, and plenty responsive enough for the time, I have the bits of something similar, although possibly with just an ARM610 or ARM710 -- I'd have to go through quite a lot of boxes to be sure. It's in pieces, and has been for a decade, unfortunately. Complete with a choice of PC co-pros. > but I never > really got on with RISC OS as an operating system. Oh really? I liked it a lot at the time. Perhaps because I was and remain fond of BASIC. I found it easy to explore and understand compared to Windows or any *nix. (Unix has always needed you to know C, which I dislike, and shell, and multiple scripting languages, and even so it is a cryptic, opaque OS, IMHO.) Details like being able to middle-click an "app" (because apps were just directories starting with an exclamation mark) and open it and see within it the various binaries, image files, help files, scripts and so on of which it's composed. Possibly on NeXTstep/macOS but nothing much else: even on classic MacOS it needed ResEdit and an understanding of a lot of cryptic codes. The limitation of 77 files per folder, which kept the filesystem simple and fast and forced you to be organised. > It's a shame Acorn never > for ARX off the ground. Absolutely. The parallels with Commodore and the CAOS project are remarkably close. I facilitated a talk at the RISC OS User Group of London shortly before I emigrated, which went into some depth of the history of the project: http://www.rougol.jellybaby.net/meetings/2012/PaulFellows/ As a last-ditch rescue effort, I think RISC OS was quite a triumph for its time. Horribly dated now, yes, but remarkably, still alive, now all-FOSS and runs well on modern hardware such as the Raspberry Pi. AIUI, the official Amiga and ST OSes remain closed source. There's an open-source recreation of ST TOS: https://aranym.github.io/afros.html It hasn't attracted much interest, though. There's also 2 different versions of the Sinclair QL OS which have open source code. One is Minerva, derived from Sinclair code, AIUI. https://bergbland.ddns.net/downloads.htm Info: http://tfs.firshman.co.uk/ql/minerva.htm The other is SMSQ/E, a rewrite by the original author: http://www.wlenerz.com/smsqe/ Neither meets the FOSS definitions, though. I am surprised that there seems to have been next to no interest in getting them running on anything else, or modernising them. For instance, AFAIK no emulator exists in any form for the last generation of native QL hardware, the Q40 & Q60 boards. http://www.q40.de/ > I actually have one of those still (which will probably need a home one day > as I no longer have any hardware that supports it). I got it from somewhere > back in my "collect all things Acorn-related" days, but I don't think I > ever even plugged it in. Wow! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 09:03:42 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:03:42 +0200 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 14:45, David Brownlee wrote: > > The big issue with the Hydra was its lack of cache coherency between > processors, which made conventional SMP somewhat... challenging. You > could do very cool multiprocessor stuff with it, just not in a > conventional SMP capable OS (I remember talking to someone trying to > use it under NetBSD at the time :) Oh my word! It reminds me of the late-generation MacOS-license-programme multiprocessor Mac clones such as the Daystar Genesis MP: https://everymac.com/systems/daystar/mp_plus/genesis_mp466_plus.html https://everymac.com/systems/daystar/mp_plus/genesis_mp932_plus.html A multiprocessor machine dedicated solely to running a single-processor OS... so that the extra CPUs could only be used by a handful of specialised apps, such as image filters. I think the Mac clones were basically designed to run a couple of specific Adobe Photoshop filters very very fast and basically nothing else. The chap that wrote the wonderful XPostFacto tool that got early versions of Mac OS X running on old, unsupported models of Mac did get OS X booting on some of the clones, but only on 1 CPU. It's a pity -- a maxed-out 4-CPU MP might have been a rather nice box for running MacOS 10.2 or 10.3 on. https://eshop.macsales.com/OSXCenter/XPostFacto/Framework.cfm?page=XPostFacto3.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Thu Jun 11 09:14:59 2020 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:14:59 -0500 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: References: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <264644d8-b774-ff23-edbf-82166ea30d58@centurytel.net> On 6/11/20 2:29 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > torsdag 11 juni 2020 skrev Charles via cctalk >: > > > On 6/10/20 4:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 06/10/2020 12:48 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > > > That leaves the unlikely possibility that one of the octal > TTL devices, or ROMs. has developed a weird internal > pathway that only interferes with DAL3 & 1 on some bit > patterns, but not all the time. Seems like a zebra rather > than a horse. The only part that drives multiple low-order > DAL lines at once besides the E19-22 ROMs is the E55 LS245. > > Quite possible that this could happen when a specific device > is driving the bus -- or that NOBODY is driving the bus in > that state. When it is stuck at the ~1V level, try a resistor > of about 1 K to ground on one of those lines.? If it moves > several hundred mV lower, it is a TTL open circuit.? If it > doesn't change at all, it is a bus contention (TWO drivers > driving at once). > > Jon > > > After much Googling, I discovered/remembered that the RQDX3 M7555 > floppy controller card in my PDP-11/23+ system has a T11 CPU on board! > > So I pulled the card and popped the T11 into the VT240. Guess what > - the terminal still doesn't work!! Craptastic. At least it's not > the most expensive and rarest part on the board... but now I'm > really stumped. This isn't my first rodeo - in fact back in the > 80's I used to design microprocessor systems for a living, and > have continued to keep my hand in repairing my video arcade games > and a PDP-8 system, among other projects. > > Meanwhile... the T11 DAL lines are only connected to a few parts > that can drive onto that local bus. Time to have a look at the > glue logic for the DRAM selects. Although the ROM chip selects > seem to work, maybe the DRAM or something else actually IS > conflicting despite the mixed signals (pun intended) ;) > > Time to break out the logic analyzer, and start burning pairs of > 27256 EPROMs with test programs. Maybe initially just fill them > with NOP's (000240 octal) with a jump to zero at the end! > > > > Now that you know the T11 is good I think it a good idea to attach a > logic analyzer on the bus. > > I would then disassemble the ROM code and match that with the logic > analyzer execution trace. Then it should be possible to find out what > is going on. If one can rely on the fault code on the keyboard it is > able to pass tests 0 to 4 successfully. Of course I have no idea what > these test really do but assuming they do some more than advanced > things I doubt that they would work if there are severe bus contention. > > If that would be the case I think the system would fail quite soon > rather than on test 5. A guess is that this is a memory problem. > > Good luck! > > /Mattis ========= Thanks for the tip. I didn't see in the manuals that the keyboard light pattern was actually a binary code, but that makes sense! I would have expected an error message on the screen, but as I previously noted, the video system itself does not seem to be working properly. Unfortunately my logic analyzer is an ancient Tek 7D01, the equivalent of stone tools rather than metal ;) It's not really suited for doing this kind of work, but it's what I have... I wonder if anyone has already disassembled the code? The 4116's are soldered to the board, too. Since the memory map is shown in the tech manual I could write a simple memory test and burn an EPROM. My fear is that one of the PALs has altered itself from tin-whisker migration (fuse regrowth) :( From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Jun 11 09:18:58 2020 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:18:58 +0200 Subject: TU58 dump tool on Linux? In-Reply-To: References: <2E0CEA4D-CDDB-4029-91E2-6FABFC09E1EB@forecast.name> Message-ID: <20200611141858.tj6ntxpvc5itav47@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2020-06-10 16:04:38 -0600, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: [...] > A real TU58 drive hooked up to a system running Linux does not look > anything like a block device. Linux has no idea what it is; it's just > something hooked up to a serial port. To read tape blocks, it would be up > to a user space program to send the TU58 the right MRSP commands and > interpret the responses. I don't have a TU58, but using nbdkit[1] or BUSE[2] (which seems to hook up as a NBD device as well) it should be quite easy to make it avaliable as a block device. For reading and writing, this should be pretty straight forward. Another route might be to use it as an actual tape device. ISTR that these offer a few extra ioctls which might be interesting to have to also support software that expects to talk to actual tapes. Both ways would have their PROs and CONs... I'd probably go the nbdkit route, but .. no hardware. ^^ MfG, JBG [1] https://github.com/libguestfs/nbdkit [2] https://github.com/acozzette/BUSE -- From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 10:31:54 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:31:54 +0200 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: <264644d8-b774-ff23-edbf-82166ea30d58@centurytel.net> References: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> <264644d8-b774-ff23-edbf-82166ea30d58@centurytel.net> Message-ID: > > > > Now that you know the T11 is good I think it a good idea to attach a logic > analyzer on the bus. > > I would then disassemble the ROM code and match that with the logic > analyzer execution trace. Then it should be possible to find out what is > going on. If one can rely on the fault code on the keyboard it is able to > pass tests 0 to 4 successfully. Of course I have no idea what these test > really do but assuming they do some more than advanced things I doubt that > they would work if there are severe bus contention. > > If that would be the case I think the system would fail quite soon rather > than on test 5. A guess is that this is a memory problem. > > Good luck! > > /Mattis > > ========= > > Thanks for the tip. I didn't see in the manuals that the keyboard light > pattern was actually a binary code, but that makes sense! I would have > expected an error message on the screen, but as I previously noted, the > video system itself does not seem to be working properly. > The VT100 also makes use of a binary code for the very early errors like ROM and RAM faults so assuming the same behaviour here is not that far fetched I think. > Unfortunately my logic analyzer is an ancient Tek 7D01, the equivalent of > stone tools rather than metal ;) It's not really suited for doing this kind > of work, but it's what I have... I wonder if anyone has already > disassembled the code? > Yes. The 7D01 was older than I expected. I thought maybe a HP1630 or possibly 1615 which is old... I guess that the memory depth of the 7D01 is not that much. Assuming that the CPU does a HALT when it stops it should stop reference memory so if you let your logic analyzer just store all addresses until it stops you might be able to find the last (whatever memory depth you have) instructions. Use the memory strobe to clock in the address into the logic analyzer. Then you can do hand disassembly of this part. Or load it into Ersatz-11 and SimH and do the disassembly. But maybe it is a good idea to find a slightly more modern LA? Maybe a HP 166x (There is one 1661 on Ebay at $70) which is quite portable and easy to use. Or HP 167x which has much better memory depth. > The 4116's are soldered to the board, too. Since the memory map is shown > in the tech manual I could write a simple memory test and burn an EPROM. > Yes. That could be an alternative. Maybe you can figure out how to communicate over the serial port. Perhaps you can write something simplistic that outputs something to the serial port? > My fear is that one of the PALs has altered itself from tin-whisker > migration (fuse regrowth) :( > That could probably happen. But I have seen more cases with failed memory chips than PALs that have self-altered. /Mattis From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jun 11 10:49:47 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:49:47 -0500 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: References: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5EE2529B.301@pico-systems.com> On 06/11/2020 02:29 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > If that would be the case I think the system would fail > quite soon rather than on test 5. A guess is that this is > a memory problem. Sure, once you call a subroutine and then try to return, corrupted memory would throw the processor into never-never land. And, that could leave the bus in a weird state, perhaps with no valid memory or device selected. Jon From alan at alanlee.org Thu Jun 11 10:53:42 2020 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:53:42 -0400 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: You are glossing over the fact Amiga users are technically 3/5ths of a person by law. Unfortunate but that also means Amiga user's opinions are 3/5ths important by extension. International law is very clear on this. Sorry. :) -A On 2020-06-10 12:54, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > Geeze, we're not that old. You make it sound like we should be dead by > now. > > - John From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 11:55:02 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:55:02 -0600 Subject: TU58 dump tool on Linux? In-Reply-To: <20200611141858.tj6ntxpvc5itav47@lug-owl.de> References: <2E0CEA4D-CDDB-4029-91E2-6FABFC09E1EB@forecast.name> <20200611141858.tj6ntxpvc5itav47@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 8:18 AM Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > I don't have a TU58, but using nbdkit[1] or BUSE[2] (which seems to > hook up as a NBD device as well) it should be quite easy to make it > avaliable as a block device. For reading and writing, this should be > pretty straight forward. > Yes, that could certainly be done, but it's a fair bit more work than just writing a tape dump program. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 12:13:08 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:13:08 -0400 Subject: Compusad Compulogical Tutor User Manual Wanted Message-ID: I am looking for a PDF or actual copy of this manual: https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_904547 Thanks Bill Degnan From rickb at bensene.com Thu Jun 11 10:36:17 2020 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:36:17 -0700 Subject: Duplicate messages In-Reply-To: <37b17843-9ea5-fcc0-f432-9ab090367bbe@julf.com> References: <37b17843-9ea5-fcc0-f432-9ab090367bbe@julf.com> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D428D@mail.bensene.com> Johan Helsingius wrote: >Anyone else getting duplicate messages from this list? I get 2 copies of >most (but not all) messages, with the second copy often arriving >significantly later. I experience the same thing. -Rick From rtomek at ceti.pl Thu Jun 11 12:51:28 2020 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 19:51:28 +0200 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> <29f5c23a-a717-6982-d103-9c220e0fcae6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20200611175128.GA25492@tau1.ceti.pl> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 03:58:24PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 13:41, Jules Richardson via cctalk > wrote: > > > > The 4000T that I have was built in May of '96, and it amazes me that there > > was any kind of market for it in light of how widespread PCs on the desktop > > had become by that time. > > Agreed. > > VideoToasters might have been the main one, perhaps? >From time to time I behave like a normal human and, for example, zip channels on my cable tv. Few years ago, while stopping at their "see what we have on offer to you, prospective viewer" kind of channel, it cracked open and I have seen the Workbench screen. Version 1.3 or 2.0, if I am correct. Could be 2.0, so most probably Amiga 1200. So, yes. Amiga seems to have find itself a safe niche. Makes huge sense (the kind of the niche), from what I could gather about people still using it. But, maybe not so safe anymore, as tv moves to digital - my cable still provides analog channels side by side with digital - if one's tv set is properly equipped with decoders, it can receive both analog and digital (and, uh, also a "terrestial satelite", what a name). But, the number of analog channels is systematically going down - about fifty ten years ago, about thirteen today. I speculate that they are cannibalising their hardware and try to keep analog for as long as possible, because some clients are not willing to jump and buy a new tv. And some will just go and buy decoder for "terrestrial sat" (dvb-t), thus ending their cable adventure. I have used one tv tuner pci card or another during last two decades, now I will use some external box. Right now I am not willing to have it digital, they are not willing to ease it to people who want recording on their own hardware (vcr, dvd-r, etc) and I am not going to ease it for them and let them know what I record. Some dvb-t tuners allow owner to record, so this is the way forward. Anyway, we will see what happens to Amiga world in ten years. Other systems you mentioned, not so lucky. Very few paying users. They seem to be used by amateurs of their own DIY hobby projects - driving self made electronics and similar stuff. Indeed, newish computers are USB-only. And this means a layer or two of cruft which filters signal going between device and processor. Gamers know this, too, which is why they seem to prefer motherboards with ps/2 ports. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From john at ziaspace.com Thu Jun 11 12:57:53 2020 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:57:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: TU58 dump tool on Linux? (Mattis Lind) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Is there anyone that has already built a tool to dump TU58-tapes on a Linux > machine? I have the drive of course. > > There is PUTR. But it is DOS only and is written in assembler so it cannot > be ported easily. The other option is running RT11 on a PDP-11, but then > there is the hassle of getting the dumps off the RT11 file system. > > > It is probably not too difficult to use relevant parts of the various TU58 > Unix implementations out there to do something quickly, but if someone has > already done it, it would be great to not reinvent the wheel. > > I have approximately 80 11/730 and 11/750 console and diag tapes that > need reading. Just a thought - if the TU58 connects via serial, then what about running SIMH and giving it a serial device which is connected to the TU58? That could fix both problems - how to talk to the device, and how to deal with the data on the tapes. John From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 13:19:38 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:19:38 -0400 Subject: DS10 Alpha question = Sata Drive card? Message-ID: Can anyone recommend a SATA card that will work with a DS10 Alpha, and which OS supports that card? thanks bob From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Jun 11 13:24:32 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:24:32 -0700 Subject: DS10 Alpha question = Sata Drive card? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D2AD8EB-A4C5-4FA0-91FE-9C894C559DB8@avanthar.com> > On Jun 11, 2020, at 11:19 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > Can anyone recommend a SATA card that will work with a DS10 Alpha, and > which OS supports that card? > > thanks > bob I take it you?re trying to run something other than OpenVMS? Zane From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 11 13:31:09 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:31:09 -0600 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: <20200611175128.GA25492@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> <29f5c23a-a717-6982-d103-9c220e0fcae6@gmail.com> <20200611175128.GA25492@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <0c22fbd6-7d2a-ea59-f9d6-622081a67bb3@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/11/2020 11:51 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > Indeed, newish computers are USB-only. And this means a layer or two > of cruft which filters signal going between device and > processor. Gamers know this, too, which is why they seem to prefer > motherboards with ps/2 ports. And soon another version of something so marketing has new something to make you buy a new version hardware and software.The problem was with Amiga it was designed as 'game box' rather than a computer. (Nowdays you phone is PC and the PC is a TV/game box.) You want a computer, run IBM pc software on the Amiga. Since the PC it is all about marketing and 'gee wiz' look at that, not hardware, or being able to write structured programs. Ben. From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 13:32:29 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:32:29 -0400 Subject: DS10 Alpha question = Sata Drive card? In-Reply-To: <1D2AD8EB-A4C5-4FA0-91FE-9C894C559DB8@avanthar.com> References: <1D2AD8EB-A4C5-4FA0-91FE-9C894C559DB8@avanthar.com> Message-ID: Correct. One of he BSDs or Linux bb On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 2:24 PM Zane Healy wrote: > > > > > On Jun 11, 2020, at 11:19 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > > > Can anyone recommend a SATA card that will work with a DS10 Alpha, and > > which OS supports that card? > > > > thanks > > bob > > I take it you?re trying to run something other than OpenVMS? > > Zane > > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 13:37:17 2020 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 19:37:17 +0100 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: <264644d8-b774-ff23-edbf-82166ea30d58@centurytel.net> References: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> <264644d8-b774-ff23-edbf-82166ea30d58@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <42D11C73-BF8A-4EC0-ADC8-1966E055C23A@gmail.com> > On 11 Jun 2020, at 15:14, Charles via cctalk wrote: > > ========= > > Thanks for the tip. I didn't see in the manuals that the keyboard light pattern was actually a binary code, but that makes sense! I would have expected an error message on the screen, but as I previously noted, the video system itself does not seem to be working properly. > > Unfortunately my logic analyzer is an ancient Tek 7D01, the equivalent of stone tools rather than metal ;) It's not really suited for doing this kind of work, but it's what I have... I wonder if anyone has already disassembled the code? > > The 4116's are soldered to the board, too. Since the memory map is shown in the tech manual I could write a simple memory test and burn an EPROM. > > My fear is that one of the PALs has altered itself from tin-whisker migration (fuse regrowth) :( > You?ve just mentioned the magic 4116 word, I?d bet some of your dollars that it?s either one of those that?s gone south or the -5V required to run them -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From jason at smbfc.net Thu Jun 11 13:49:54 2020 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:49:54 -0700 Subject: DS10 Alpha question = Sata Drive card? In-Reply-To: References: <1D2AD8EB-A4C5-4FA0-91FE-9C894C559DB8@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <2dbec63b-0fa3-1060-7fd1-de7beb328171@smbfc.net> On 6/11/20 11:32 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > Correct. One of he BSDs or Linux > bb > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 2:24 PM Zane Healy wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Jun 11, 2020, at 11:19 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Can anyone recommend a SATA card that will work with a DS10 Alpha, and >>> which OS supports that card? >>> >>> thanks >>> bob >> >> I take it you?re trying to run something other than OpenVMS? >> >> Zane >> >> I mean it's a PCI Bus machine (With PCI-X) so any card that has drivers for your given OS will "work". The major caveat is that there are no SATA cards that SRM will boot from. My DS20, however has a boot partition on IDE->CFCard Adapter, (which SRM knows how to boot from), and then load the OS from the 3ware 8xxx Raid card. I'm running Gentoo Linux, but I have to imagine that NetBSD would function in a similar way. --Jason From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Thu Jun 11 14:44:25 2020 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:44:25 -0500 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: References: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> <264644d8-b774-ff23-edbf-82166ea30d58@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <15b86d90-b40e-147c-bacf-a31bba00bada@centurytel.net> On 6/11/20 10:31 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > >> >> >> Now that you know the T11 is good I think it a good idea to >> attach a logic analyzer on the bus. >> >> I would then disassemble the ROM code and match that with the >> logic analyzer execution trace. Then it should be possible to >> find out what is going on. If one can rely on the fault code on >> the keyboard it is able to pass tests 0 to 4 successfully. Of >> course I have no idea what these test really do but assuming they >> do some more than advanced things I doubt that they would work if >> there are severe bus contention. >> >> If that would be the case I think the system would fail quite >> soon rather than on test 5. A guess is that this is a memory >> problem. >> >> Good luck! >> >> /Mattis > > ========= > > Thanks for the tip. I didn't see in the manuals that the keyboard > light pattern was actually a binary code, but that makes sense! I > would have expected an error message on the screen, but as I > previously noted, the video system itself does not seem to be > working properly. > > The VT100 also makes use of a binary code for the very early errors > like ROM and RAM faults so assuming the same behaviour here is not > that far fetched I think. > > Unfortunately my logic analyzer is an ancient Tek 7D01, the > equivalent of stone tools rather than metal ;) It's not really > suited for doing this kind of work, but it's what I have... I > wonder if anyone has already disassembled the code? > > > Yes. The 7D01 was older than I expected. I thought maybe a HP1630 or > possibly 1615 which is old... > I guess that the memory depth of the 7D01 is not that much. > > Assuming that the CPU does a HALT when it stops it should stop > reference memory so if you let your logic analyzer just store all > addresses until it stops you might be able to find the last (whatever > memory depth you have) instructions. Use the memory strobe to clock in > the address into the logic analyzer. Then you can do hand disassembly > of this part. Or load it into Ersatz-11 and SimH and do the disassembly. > But maybe it is a good?idea to find a slightly more modern LA? Maybe a > HP 166x (There is one 1661 on Ebay at $70) which is quite portable and > easy to use. Or HP 167x which has much better memory depth. > > The 4116's are soldered to the board, too. Since the memory map is > shown in the tech manual I could write a simple memory test and > burn an EPROM. > > Yes. That could be an alternative. Maybe you can figure out how to > communicate over the serial port. Perhaps you can write something > simplistic that outputs something to the serial port? > > My fear is that one of the PALs has altered itself from > tin-whisker migration (fuse regrowth) :( > > That could probably happen. But I have seen more cases with failed > memory chips than PALs that have self-altered. > /Mattis =========== The T11 is not halted - it's looping endlessly in the first ROM. There is a brief burst of DRAM select activity on the scope just before it hangs in the loop. All the glue logic and memory map adders/multiplexers seem to be grossly working with outputs that change state. I was hoping to find a bad or immovable line on one of them... Now this makes me even more suspicious that there is a bad address (or block of addresses) in RAM and that's where the test is hanging. My 7D01 (16 channels) is hopelessly outclassed here. I looked at that HP 1661 but it does not appear to come with the probes, which are so often discarded by surplus or scrappers. (A similar aggravation with our classic computers, of course). Unfortunately I only have one 27256 in the drawer, so have to order some more before making memory test PROMs...and I also have to figure out a simple way of outputting the RAM failure address! From mechanic_2 at charter.net Thu Jun 11 14:46:37 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:46:37 -0500 Subject: Duplicate messages In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D428D@mail.bensene.com> References: <37b17843-9ea5-fcc0-f432-9ab090367bbe@julf.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D428D@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <5EE28A1D.5060502@charter.net> Johan, Yep! I do also! rich! On 6/11/2020 10:36 AM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > > Johan Helsingius wrote: > >> Anyone else getting duplicate messages from this list? I get 2 copies of >> most (but not all) messages, with the second copy often arriving >> significantly later. > > I experience the same thing. > -Rick From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 15:15:03 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 22:15:03 +0200 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: <15b86d90-b40e-147c-bacf-a31bba00bada@centurytel.net> References: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> <264644d8-b774-ff23-edbf-82166ea30d58@centurytel.net> <15b86d90-b40e-147c-bacf-a31bba00bada@centurytel.net> Message-ID: > The T11 is not halted - it's looping endlessly in the first ROM. There is > a brief burst of DRAM select activity on the scope just before it hangs in > the loop. > That burst of DRAM activity might indicate a DRAM problem. One thing I have tried in the past is to put a known good DRAM on top of one DRAM is the array. So to say in parallel. In the cases I have tried I managed to make systems pass the memory check. Then test each and every one in the DRAM array in the same way. Might be worth a try. > All the glue logic and memory map adders/multiplexers seem to be grossly > working with outputs that change state. I was hoping to find a bad or > immovable line on one of them... Now this makes me even more suspicious > that there is a bad address (or block of addresses) in RAM and that's where > the test is hanging. > > My 7D01 (16 channels) is hopelessly outclassed here. I looked at that HP > 1661 but it does not appear to come with the probes, which are so often > discarded by surplus or scrappers. (A similar aggravation with our classic > computers, of course). > Ahh. Missed that it lacked probes. That is a common problem unfortunately. > Unfortunately I only have one 27256 in the drawer, so have to order some > more before making memory test PROMs...and I also have to figure out a > simple way of outputting the RAM failure address! > The 2681 https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/data-sheet/SCC2681.pdf shouldn't be to difficult to configure and is located on the same bus as the keyboard so you should be able to send something on the UART to either the printer/aux or the host. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 15:33:40 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:33:40 -0400 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: <42D11C73-BF8A-4EC0-ADC8-1966E055C23A@gmail.com> References: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> <264644d8-b774-ff23-edbf-82166ea30d58@centurytel.net> <42D11C73-BF8A-4EC0-ADC8-1966E055C23A@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 2:37 PM Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > The 4116's are soldered to the board, too.... > > You?ve just mentioned the magic 4116 word, I?d bet some of your dollars that it?s either one of those that?s gone south or the -5V required to run them Definitely check the -5V for the 4116s. -ethan From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Thu Jun 11 16:30:32 2020 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:30:32 -0500 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: References: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> <264644d8-b774-ff23-edbf-82166ea30d58@centurytel.net> <15b86d90-b40e-147c-bacf-a31bba00bada@centurytel.net> Message-ID: On 6/11/20 3:15 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > The T11 is not halted - it's looping endlessly in the first ROM. There > is a brief burst of DRAM select activity on the scope just before it > hangs in the loop. > > ?That burst of DRAM activity might indicate?a DRAM problem. One thing > I have tried in the past is to put a known good DRAM on top?of one > DRAM is the array. So to say in parallel. In the?cases I have tried I > managed to make systems pass the memory check. Then test?each and > every one in the DRAM array in the same way. Might be worth a try. > > The 2681 https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/data-sheet/SCC2681.pdf?shouldn't > be to difficult to configure?and is located on the same bus as the > keyboard so you should be able to send something? on the UART to > either the printer/aux or the host. ======== Thanks again. I have some 4116's on order too. I'll try the piggyback trick, and if it works, will desolder the offending RAM (and install a machined-pin socket!) I will probably never have to change it again - but the PC board wouldn't like another desolder operation... If that doesn't work, then I'll start writing diagnostic software using the 2681. Of course then I have to debug the program before I can debug the terminal ;) From nw.johnson at ieee.org Thu Jun 11 16:30:39 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:30:39 -0400 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: References: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> <264644d8-b774-ff23-edbf-82166ea30d58@centurytel.net> <42D11C73-BF8A-4EC0-ADC8-1966E055C23A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7e226c26-592c-fb58-2541-4c4efeb8a296@ieee.org> One trick I found with the -5V if it is driven by? a charge pump: check the voltage. If it is being pulled down since the charge pump cannot supply the current, just disconnect the charge pump and put a lab supply in its place.? The increased current will clean out whatever is shorting it to ground without harming any good chips.? If you are lucky a puff of smoke will identify the chip. Otherwise there may be enough memory running to give you a diagnostic message to say which bit. I did it once on an $1800 board, all chips soldered in, results in minutes! cheers, Nigel On 11/06/2020 16:33, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 2:37 PM Adrian Graham via cctalk > wrote: >>> The 4116's are soldered to the board, too.... >> You?ve just mentioned the magic 4116 word, I?d bet some of your dollars that it?s either one of those that?s gone south or the -5V required to run them > Definitely check the -5V for the 4116s. > > -ethan -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From laurens at daemon.be Thu Jun 11 18:37:45 2020 From: laurens at daemon.be (Laurens Vets) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:37:45 -0700 Subject: Looking for Cobalt Qube cases In-Reply-To: <1030753799.564872.1590638611186@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1030753799.564872.1590638611186@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey Ed, On 2020-05-27 9:03 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > what are you dong with the cases? > since? we? are keeping? a? cube? as? a? display? might? like? ?sow? extra? guts? ?for? backup....Ed#? ? SMECC > In a message dated 5/27/2020 12:45:48 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > Hello, > I'm looking for Cobalt Qube cases, preferably in North America. > I would prefer non working Qubes as I don't want to deprive anyone of working ones. Doesn't matter whether it's a 1, 2 or 3. I'm looking to repurpose the cases. > Thanks! > I only need 2 or 3 cases. I'm building a couple of Raspberry Pi clusters and I want beautiful enclosures for them :) If I find some with working guts, I'll let you know. From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 19:35:03 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 20:35:03 -0400 Subject: DS10 Alpha question = Sata Drive card? In-Reply-To: <2dbec63b-0fa3-1060-7fd1-de7beb328171@smbfc.net> References: <1D2AD8EB-A4C5-4FA0-91FE-9C894C559DB8@avanthar.com> <2dbec63b-0fa3-1060-7fd1-de7beb328171@smbfc.net> Message-ID: Excellent data thank you Jason! bb On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 2:50 PM Jason Howe via cctalk wrote: > > > On 6/11/20 11:32 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > Correct. One of he BSDs or Linux > > bb > > > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 2:24 PM Zane Healy wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Jun 11, 2020, at 11:19 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > >>> > >>> Can anyone recommend a SATA card that will work with a DS10 Alpha, and > >>> which OS supports that card? > >>> > >>> thanks > >>> bob > >> > >> I take it you?re trying to run something other than OpenVMS? > >> > >> Zane > >> > >> > I mean it's a PCI Bus machine (With PCI-X) so any card that has drivers > for your given OS will "work". > > The major caveat is that there are no SATA cards that SRM will boot from. > > My DS20, however has a boot partition on IDE->CFCard Adapter, (which SRM > knows how to boot from), and then load the OS from the 3ware 8xxx Raid > card. > > I'm running Gentoo Linux, but I have to imagine that NetBSD would > function in a similar way. > > --Jason From laurens at daemon.be Thu Jun 11 18:29:00 2020 From: laurens at daemon.be (Laurens Vets) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:29:00 -0700 Subject: Looking for Cobalt Qube cases In-Reply-To: <1030753799.564872.1590638611186@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1030753799.564872.1590638611186@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <81b22ccecf2a44ec9f7fd6645bcd7026@daemon.be> Hey Ed, On 2020-05-27 21:03, ED SHARPE via cctech wrote: > what are you dong with the cases? > since? we? are keeping? a? cube? as? a? display? might? like? ?sow? > extra? guts? ?for? backup....Ed#? ? SMECC > In a message dated 5/27/2020 12:45:48 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > Hello, > I'm looking for Cobalt Qube cases, preferably in North America. > I would prefer non working Qubes as I don't want to deprive anyone of > working ones. Doesn't matter whether it's a 1, 2 or 3. I'm looking to > repurpose the cases. > Thanks! I only need 2 or 3 cases. I'm building a couple of Raspberry Pi clusters and I want beautiful enclosures for them :) If I find some with working guts, I'll let you know. From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jun 12 02:39:33 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 07:39:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for Cobalt Qube cases In-Reply-To: <81b22ccecf2a44ec9f7fd6645bcd7026@daemon.be> References: <1030753799.564872.1590638611186@mail.yahoo.com> <81b22ccecf2a44ec9f7fd6645bcd7026@daemon.be> Message-ID: <500295844.2226471.1591947573272@mail.yahoo.com> fantastic!!? ?let? me know...? yea? they? are? classy? ?looking!?Ed!?In a message dated 6/11/2020 10:25:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctech at classiccmp.org writes:? Hey Ed, On 2020-05-27 21:03, ED SHARPE via cctech wrote: > what are you dong with the cases? > since? we? are keeping? a? cube? as? a? display? might? like? ?sow? > extra? guts? ?for? backup....Ed#? ? SMECC > In a message dated 5/27/2020 12:45:48 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > Hello, > I'm looking for Cobalt Qube cases, preferably in North America. > I would prefer non working Qubes as I don't want to deprive anyone of > working ones. Doesn't matter whether it's a 1, 2 or 3. I'm looking to > repurpose the cases. > Thanks! I only need 2 or 3 cases. I'm building a couple of Raspberry Pi clusters and I want beautiful enclosures for them :) If I find some with working guts, I'll let you know.? From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 08:02:57 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:02:57 +0200 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: <20200611175128.GA25492@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> <29f5c23a-a717-6982-d103-9c220e0fcae6@gmail.com> <20200611175128.GA25492@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 19:51, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > > From time to time I behave like a normal human and, for example, zip > channels on my cable tv. Few years ago, while stopping at their "see > what we have on offer to you, prospective viewer" kind of channel, it > cracked open and I have seen the Workbench screen. Version 1.3 or 2.0, > if I am correct. Could be 2.0, so most probably Amiga 1200. > > So, yes. Indeed. I remember at around the turn of the century, a Sainsbury's supermarket by Clapham Common underground station in South London (near my old home) got completely modernised. https://stores.sainsburys.co.uk/0526/clapham-common The shop had full-length windows at street level. This is not much use for a supermarket: the backs of shelves are not very interesting to look at, it's hard to get in there to replace marketing posters etc., leaving it open wastes potential shelf space... So they filled it with big plasma flatscreens (quite new tech at the time). They could display animated advertising, special offers etc. But before the refurbishment was completed, there were some "coming soon" messages on the screens. And one day, someone left the mouse pointer on screen. It was the familiar chunky red NW-pointing AmigaOS pointer, as in http://www.heckmeck.de/amigastyle/amiga_pointers/pointers.png I was very surprised to see what looked like a _new_ Amiga deployment at that time -- end of the 1990s. But I guess it was good at its job, and probably required very little maintenance... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 08:05:22 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:05:22 +0200 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: <0c22fbd6-7d2a-ea59-f9d6-622081a67bb3@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> <29f5c23a-a717-6982-d103-9c220e0fcae6@gmail.com> <20200611175128.GA25492@tau1.ceti.pl> <0c22fbd6-7d2a-ea59-f9d6-622081a67bb3@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 20:31, ben via cctalk wrote: > > And soon another version of something so marketing has new something > to make you buy a new version hardware and software.The problem was with > Amiga it was designed as 'game box' rather than a computer. (Nowdays you > phone is PC and the PC is a TV/game box.) > You want a computer, run IBM pc software on the Amiga. Since the > PC it is all about marketing and 'gee wiz' look at that, not hardware, > or being able to write structured programs. Well yes. I have some hope that AROS might reach a more usable state and run natively on the Raspberry Pi. Linux is still UNIX?, which is a complicated OS which requires a lot of maintenance, whereas children kept Amigas running for years. AROS on a ?25/$30 computer could be a good fun/educational toy OS for kids. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jun 12 09:02:38 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:02:38 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/A transformer hum In-Reply-To: References: <69989298-E1CB-47DE-9FCC-7A8F751CCC0F@comcast.net> <2ad2146b-2652-a916-4176-050f7943aa50@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 6/9/20 7:13 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 3:10 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: >> >> On 6/9/20 2:51 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:04 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I have a VXT-2000. It is broke. If I could find out what the voltage >>>> and current requirements were and their positions on the power connector >>>> I would replace it in a heartbeat. >>>> >>> >>> For the VXT-2000 with an H7109-B the rated voltage and current values >>> are printed right on the power supply label: >>> >>> +5.1V, 7.81A >>> +12.1V, 0.62A >>> -12.1V, 0.46A >>> -9V, 0.2A >>> >>> Fixed width character pinout diagram: >>> >>> +=================+ >>> -9V | Yellow | Orange | +12.1V >>> +--------+--------+ >>> ??? | White | Black | Gnd >>> +--------+--------+ >>> +5.1V | Red | Blue | -12.1V >>> +--------+--------+ >>> +5.1V | Red | Black | Gnd >>> +--------+--------+ >>> Gnd | Black | Black | Gnd >>> +=================+ >>> >>> The mystery is the White wire. The power supply label only lists 4 >>> output voltages. The White wire appears to be routed to the Ethernet >>> daughter board. The measured voltage appears that it might be floating >>> slightly negative, somewhere around -1.5V when the Ethernet daughter >>> board is installed and around -5V when it is removed. Maybe it is a >>> high impedance earth ground connection? It appears to be connected to >>> the shield of the Ethernet BNC, which measures around 1M-Ohm to the >>> chassis ground when the power supply is disconnected from the main >>> board, and around 0.75M-Ohm when the power supply is connected. >>> >> >> >> Thank you for that. Mine has no labels or anything. It is PC Board >> with Digital, Side 1, Side 2 and a number I don't recognize on it. >> I guess the -9V is the only odd one but you could easily get that >> from a -12V line. I may get to fix it yet. >> >> bill > > (I was going to change the subject line for this reply to reflect the > VXT-2000 discussion but maybe it is already too late to do that > without making message threading even worse?) > > Does your VXT-2000 look significantly different than the images on > this page? Is the power supply in your VXT-2000 a bare board that is > not fully enclosed? > > https://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/DEC_VXT2000 > > The power supply in my VXT-2000 matches the fully enclosed H7109-B > power supply as shown in this image: > > https://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/images/b/bb/DEC_VXT2000_111543249570-2.jpg > Sorry for the delay. Since the lockdown started Verizon DSL has been a total disaster and I frequently go for days without any connectivity. As for the subject under discussion. You are right mine did have a metal cover over it with the voltages, (but not the pinouts!) It's been so long since I tore it apart to fix that I had forgotten and had to dig the box out that has everything but the PSU Circuit Board in it to refresh my memory. Things having changed so much since then I am going to take another shot at fixing the original PSU before replacing it with something non-DEC. But, based on the voltages used, building a replacement from scratch would be relatively trivial. bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jun 12 11:46:49 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 12:46:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VAX /785 docs Message-ID: <20200612164649.C9CA518C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> This eBait item: https://www.ebay.com/itm/202989416368 has a number of VAX-11/785 manuals, including /785 Hardware User's Guide. A bit outside my scope, but /785 docs are very rare (Bitsvers only has prints) so a VAX person should grab this and then scan them. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 12 12:45:21 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:45:21 -0700 Subject: VAX /785 docs In-Reply-To: <20200612164649.C9CA518C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200612164649.C9CA518C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3ffe0a80-5414-b810-ea43-2f39bc9fd490@bitsavers.org> On 6/12/20 9:46 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > /785 docs are very rare (Bitsvers only has prints) > so a VAX person should grab this and then scan them. done.. though I really shouldn't be spending money right now From tacoman656 at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 14:21:33 2020 From: tacoman656 at gmail.com (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:21:33 -0400 Subject: VAX /785 docs In-Reply-To: <3ffe0a80-5414-b810-ea43-2f39bc9fd490@bitsavers.org> References: <20200612164649.C9CA518C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3ffe0a80-5414-b810-ea43-2f39bc9fd490@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5668d822-45ee-780d-cfe4-6fd7b7bf1cec@gmail.com> Hi Al, If you'd like me to reimburse you for this, I'm happy to do so! I have a chassis, board set, power supplies, etc for an 11/785 that I eventually hope to get to and these would be great to have available (online only or both online and in paper form). In any case, let me know how much and where to send it (USPS, PayPal, venmo) and I'll reimburse you for them Thank you for all you do! Todd On 6/12/2020 1:45 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 6/12/20 9:46 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> /785 docs are very rare (Bitsvers only has prints) >> so a VAX person should grab this and then scan them. > > done.. though I really shouldn't be spending money right now > > From dlr at bungi.com Fri Jun 12 15:02:02 2020 From: dlr at bungi.com (Dave Rand) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 13:02:02 -0700 Subject: Is Power7 a bit too recent? Message-ID: I have a bunch of Power7 720's I would like to get running, and I'm have a tough time tracking down any VIOS newer than 2.1. Does someone here have some 2.2.6 or later CD's they would like to sell me? Thanks! -- From doc at vaxen.net Sat Jun 13 12:03:21 2020 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 12:03:21 -0500 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 6/10/20 11:05 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I found AmigaKit.com in the UK, are there any Amiga vendors left in the US? I need to order some parts, and not only do I not remember who I used to use in the US, I assume they?re gone. > > Zane I haven't dealt with them but there's Amiga On The Lake - a *new* Amiga vendor: http://amigaonthelake.com/ There's a ton of reverse-engineering going on in the Amiga world. There are new-production motherboard PCBs for the A500+, A1200, A2000 and A4000D. Plus, for the A3000 and A4000 there are "enhanced" versions a Re-Amiga 3000 with SMD passives and SIMM sockets instead of ZIP/CHIP the "AA3000+" which is a full rework, including daughterboard with optional PCI The A4000TX which is a more mildly enhanced A4000 in micro-ATX form factor. The A3640, reborn as A2640/A3660 Plus a new-design CPLD based A2000 flicker-fixer that's actually affordable. Most of those are Open Hardware, and all of them are available as Amibay as group buys or straight-up For Sale, or on Tindie. Free-ish CAD and design software has been very very good to the Amiga community. Doc From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sat Jun 13 14:05:39 2020 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 15:05:39 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 Message-ID: <714f2f75-e891-a47b-2bb1-877bc49b9046@comcast.net> I got a notice from ebay that an Apple 1 is up for sale: $1.5M plus $1 shipping, yikes! ebay item number: 174195921349 Doug From ethan at 757.org Sat Jun 13 14:22:52 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 15:22:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple 1 In-Reply-To: <714f2f75-e891-a47b-2bb1-877bc49b9046@comcast.net> References: <714f2f75-e891-a47b-2bb1-877bc49b9046@comcast.net> Message-ID: Oh, I'll sell you a Cray for like 1/4th that. Much better deal, way more metal and stuff. - Ethan > I got a notice from ebay that an Apple 1 is up for sale: $1.5M > plus $1 shipping, yikes! > > ebay item number: 174195921349 > > Doug > > -- : Ethan O'Toole From boc259757 at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 14:45:59 2020 From: boc259757 at gmail.com (kingcavespider 1) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 15:45:59 -0400 Subject: Thinking of selling my PDP's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It sounds interesting, especially the pdp-11, but I don't know how shipping would work and it would be a long drive to try to pick up On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 16:46, Charles via cctalk wrote: > I am getting closer to retirement (although not close enough) and I'm > considering selling off my PDP stuff, especially if I downsize and move. > > Everything's working, but I just no longer DO anything with either > system... the adventure was acquiring all the pieces, fixing them and > learning the software :) > > Anyhow I have an 8/A with cloned Programmer's Panel (Vince Slyngstad and > I made it around 2006) and limited function panel, 32K RAM board (also > have core), Philipp Hachtmann's USB interface board, RX01 floppy, two > RL02's, and a high-speed (optical) reel-to-reel paper tape reader. OS/8 > is up and running. Several spare RL02 packs. It's all in a tall DEC rack > with an H-(something) power control box. The ASR-33 is not included, I'm > keeping that. > > Also an 11/23+ (11/03 chassis) in a corporate cabinet with two RL02's, a > 16-line serial interface, VT-220 terminal. Also an RQDX3 which is > connected to a loose 3.5" TEAC floppy drive. Have RT-11XM, RT-11SJ and > TSX-Plus 6.50 (all 16 timesharing ports are working too). > > So, I am wondering if there's any market for them (preferably as > complete systems). Shipping would be difficult due to the size/weight > (I'm in rural south central Missouri). I'm not looking to give them > away, or to part out, but would entertain reasonable package deals > rather than deal with the "LQQK! RARE!!" bull on ebay. > > I can send pics to interested parties. Let me know, > > thanks! > > Charles > > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Jun 13 16:05:25 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 14:05:25 -0700 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 13, 2020, at 10:03 AM, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/10/20 11:05 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> I found AmigaKit.com in the UK, are there any Amiga vendors left in the US? I need to order some parts, and not only do I not remember who I used to use in the US, I assume they?re gone. >> Zane > > I haven't dealt with them but there's Amiga On The Lake - a *new* Amiga vendor: > > http://amigaonthelake.com/ I ran across them after I placed an order with AmigaKit (waiting impatiently for them to ship). They have a couple interesting items, but not really what I?m after. > There's a ton of reverse-engineering going on in the Amiga world. There are new-production motherboard PCBs for the A500+, A1200, A2000 and A4000D. Plus, for the A3000 and A4000 there are "enhanced? versions There is also a replacement for the A1200 & late model A500 keyboard PCB membrane, that looks really cool. > a Re-Amiga 3000 with SMD passives and SIMM sockets instead of ZIP/CHIP I?ve seen this, I didn?t realize it changed out the sockets for SIMM?s. My main A3000 has the Zipchip-to-SIMM adapter board in it. > the "AA3000+" which is a full rework, including daughterboard with optional PCI WOW!!! That?s seriously cool looking. > The A4000TX which is a more mildly enhanced A4000 in micro-ATX form factor. Interesting. Both these are pretty cool, I just wish they were available already populated! I?m definitely not setup to do micro-miniature work, and I don?t even claim to come close to having that level of skill. > The A3640, reborn as A2640/A3660 This one is seriously tempted. I?m not 100% sure my main A3000 can take one of these. It?s been ~20 years since I was up on all of this. > Plus a new-design CPLD based A2000 flicker-fixer that's actually affordable. > > > Most of those are Open Hardware, and all of them are available as Amibay as group buys or straight-up For Sale, or on Tindie. > > Free-ish CAD and design software has been very very good to the Amiga community. It?s definitely interesting and exciting to see what?s available out there. Right now I?m simply trying to do some pretty basic work on getting things up and running. Back when I was actively using my Amiga?s, my main A3000 and the A500 were the two systems I used. I still can?t believe I have a working A1200, and never realized that it was only the TV out that was dead. The A600 was less interesting then, oddly enough, due to its size, it?s more interesting now, despite the dinky keyboard. I?m *still* trying to find all my floppies, and all my floppy cleaning kits. Pretty much everything else, except that and SCSI cables have been dug out. Zane From rtomek at ceti.pl Sat Jun 13 22:50:56 2020 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 05:50:56 +0200 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: <0c22fbd6-7d2a-ea59-f9d6-622081a67bb3@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> <29f5c23a-a717-6982-d103-9c220e0fcae6@gmail.com> <20200611175128.GA25492@tau1.ceti.pl> <0c22fbd6-7d2a-ea59-f9d6-622081a67bb3@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20200614035056.GB1519@tau1.ceti.pl> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 12:31:09PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: [...] > > And soon another version of something so marketing has new something > to make you buy a new version hardware and software.The problem was You know, we have so many letters in alphabet, what a pity to not use them all... for depiction of new USB standard - a, b, c - every five to seven years. And we also have Greek letters :-) . "Wi-fi gamma" sounds a bit scary, but might catch on. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Jun 14 00:20:43 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 22:20:43 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 In-Reply-To: References: <714f2f75-e891-a47b-2bb1-877bc49b9046@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/13/2020 12:22 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > Oh, I'll sell you a Cray for like 1/4th that. Much better deal, way > more metal and stuff. > > ??? - Ethan > > >> I got a notice from ebay that an Apple 1 is up for sale: $1.5M plus >> $1 shipping, yikes! >> >> ebay item number: 174195921349 >> >> Doug >> >> > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > Anyone know where the Apple Cray went?? Do they still have it? Operational if they have it? thanks Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 14 00:28:30 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 22:28:30 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 In-Reply-To: References: <714f2f75-e891-a47b-2bb1-877bc49b9046@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4bb8fbbb-5d9f-df33-2285-3e64ae7abed7@bitsavers.org> On 6/13/20 10:20 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > Do they still have it? The Y-MP was replaced by a cray-ette in the early 90s In the end the main use for it was for doing backups with its tape robot From Rice43 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 14 03:36:21 2020 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 09:36:21 +0100 Subject: Thinking of selling my PDP's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There?s ALWAYS a market for PDP-8?s and PDP-11?s. Sadly though, i assume these are all on the yankee side of the pond, ruling out the significant european market out entirely (and don?t even THINK about shipping, unless you want to remortgage your house) Either way, i?m sure you won?t struggle to find a buyer. There?s plenty of online forums and message boards where collectors of all kinds of hardware frequent. If you?re adamant that?s you want to keep them from FleaBay (which, you never know, could garner a decent price as a public auction), it?s worth posting to some of the market forums, such as http://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum.php , and http://www.amibay.com/forum.php > On Jun 13, 2020, at 8:45 PM, kingcavespider 1 via cctalk wrote: > > It sounds interesting, especially the pdp-11, but I don't know how shipping > would work and it would be a long drive to try to pick up > > On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 16:46, Charles via cctalk > wrote: > >> I am getting closer to retirement (although not close enough) and I'm >> considering selling off my PDP stuff, especially if I downsize and move. >> >> Everything's working, but I just no longer DO anything with either >> system... the adventure was acquiring all the pieces, fixing them and >> learning the software :) >> >> Anyhow I have an 8/A with cloned Programmer's Panel (Vince Slyngstad and >> I made it around 2006) and limited function panel, 32K RAM board (also >> have core), Philipp Hachtmann's USB interface board, RX01 floppy, two >> RL02's, and a high-speed (optical) reel-to-reel paper tape reader. OS/8 >> is up and running. Several spare RL02 packs. It's all in a tall DEC rack >> with an H-(something) power control box. The ASR-33 is not included, I'm >> keeping that. >> >> Also an 11/23+ (11/03 chassis) in a corporate cabinet with two RL02's, a >> 16-line serial interface, VT-220 terminal. Also an RQDX3 which is >> connected to a loose 3.5" TEAC floppy drive. Have RT-11XM, RT-11SJ and >> TSX-Plus 6.50 (all 16 timesharing ports are working too). >> >> So, I am wondering if there's any market for them (preferably as >> complete systems). Shipping would be difficult due to the size/weight >> (I'm in rural south central Missouri). I'm not looking to give them >> away, or to part out, but would entertain reasonable package deals >> rather than deal with the "LQQK! RARE!!" bull on ebay. >> >> I can send pics to interested parties. Let me know, >> >> thanks! >> >> Charles >> >> >> From Rice43 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 14 03:37:55 2020 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 09:37:55 +0100 Subject: Apple 1 In-Reply-To: <4bb8fbbb-5d9f-df33-2285-3e64ae7abed7@bitsavers.org> References: <714f2f75-e891-a47b-2bb1-877bc49b9046@comcast.net> <4bb8fbbb-5d9f-df33-2285-3e64ae7abed7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <867E3441-0927-4266-A2C5-6E1F7E30FE9D@btinternet.com> ?Here i am, brain the size of a planet, and i?m controlling a robot that does tape backups? > On Jun 14, 2020, at 6:28 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/13/20 10:20 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> Do they still have it? > > The Y-MP was replaced by a cray-ette in the early 90s > > In the end the main use for it was for doing backups > with its tape robot > > > From Rice43 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 14 03:52:58 2020 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 09:52:58 +0100 Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 Message-ID: Hi all. I recently bought a mystery blinkenlight panel. Closer inspection reveals it was manufactured by Intel in the early 70?s (1973), and some people on the book of faces suggested it was part of a ?device multiplexer?(?) I?m 95% confident it?s not strictly a ?computer? blinkenlight panel, but rather an attached device, but that still hasn?t helped me narrow down what exactly it was from. I?ve not seen any early Intel stuff as rack-mount, so i?m wondering if it was a prototype, or maybe a piece of internal/non-commercial hardware for Intel's own use. I?m hoping someone here might be able to shed some light on this mystery. Pictures: https://imgur.com/gallery/lD74oSy Thanks in advance. Josh Rice From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sun Jun 14 03:44:40 2020 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:44:40 +0000 Subject: Apple 1 In-Reply-To: <867E3441-0927-4266-A2C5-6E1F7E30FE9D@btinternet.com> References: <714f2f75-e891-a47b-2bb1-877bc49b9046@comcast.net> <4bb8fbbb-5d9f-df33-2285-3e64ae7abed7@bitsavers.org>, <867E3441-0927-4266-A2C5-6E1F7E30FE9D@btinternet.com> Message-ID: ?Here i am, brain the size of a planet, and i?m controlling a robot that does tape backups? That's not uncommon for outdated (mini)supercomputers. Fast network and disk I/O make them well suited to the task. It's just a shame of all that nice vector hardware. Convex actively advocated the use of their older series as file and backup servers. Lots of the Convex C200 IPI disks I have show evidence show evidence of having been used as tape backup caches. Camiel From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jun 14 11:01:59 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 11:01:59 -0500 Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EE649F7.4040800@pico-systems.com> On 06/14/2020 03:52 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > Hi all. > > I recently bought a mystery blinkenlight panel. Closer inspection reveals it was manufactured by Intel in the early 70?s (1973), and some people on the book of faces suggested it was part of a ?device multiplexer?(?) > > I?m 95% confident it?s not strictly a ?computer? blinkenlight panel, but rather an attached device, but that still hasn?t helped me narrow down what exactly it was from. > > I?ve not seen any early Intel stuff as rack-mount, so i?m wondering if it was a prototype, or maybe a piece of internal/non-commercial hardware for Intel's own use. > > I?m hoping someone here might be able to shed some light on this mystery. > > Pictures: https://imgur.com/gallery/lD74oSy > > Any reason the picture is upside down? Also, blurry, so it is hard to read the labels. it seems to have two 9-bit bytes and a memory address. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 14 11:21:29 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 09:21:29 -0700 Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <5EE649F7.4040800@pico-systems.com> References: <5EE649F7.4040800@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 6/14/20 9:01 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Any reason the picture is upside down?? Also, blurry, so it is hard to read the labels. I can't find the original eBay listing right now. The pictures were better on there From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jun 14 11:46:45 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 16:46:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 References: <1900260423.455731.1592153205975.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1900260423.455731.1592153205975@mail.yahoo.com> Add on? solid state memory unit? some semi companies made tjem. For add to Dec and dg?? Dunno. A guess ....?? ed smecc On Sunday, June 14, 2020 Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: Hi all. I recently bought a mystery blinkenlight panel. Closer inspection reveals it was manufactured by Intel in the early 70?s (1973), and some people on the book of faces suggested it was part of a ?device multiplexer?(?) I?m 95% confident it?s not strictly a ?computer? blinkenlight panel, but rather an attached device, but that still hasn?t helped me narrow down what exactly it was from. I?ve not seen any early Intel stuff as rack-mount, so i?m wondering if it was a prototype, or maybe a piece of internal/non-commercial hardware for Intel's own use. I?m hoping someone here might be able to shed some light on this mystery. Pictures: https://imgur.com/gallery/lD74oSy Thanks in advance. Josh Rice From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 14 14:31:29 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:31:29 +0000 Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: References: <5EE649F7.4040800@pico-systems.com>, Message-ID: Hi Al Can you repeat what the text is? I can't make out what it says, even with magnification. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 9:21 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 On 6/14/20 9:01 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Any reason the picture is upside down? Also, blurry, so it is hard to read the labels. I can't find the original eBay listing right now. The pictures were better on there From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 15:01:05 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 16:01:05 -0400 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <1900260423.455731.1592153205975@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1900260423.455731.1592153205975.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1900260423.455731.1592153205975@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, 12:46 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Add on solid state memory unit some semi companies made tjem. For add to > Dec and dg? Dunno. A guess > .... ed smecc > On Sunday, June 14, 2020 Joshua Rice via cctalk cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi all. > > I recently bought a mystery blinkenlight panel. Closer inspection reveals > it was manufactured by Intel in the early 70?s (1973), and some people on > the book of faces suggested it was part of a ?device multiplexer?(?) > > I?m 95% confident it?s not strictly a ?computer? blinkenlight panel, but > rather an attached device, but that still hasn?t helped me narrow down what > exactly it was from. > > I?ve not seen any early Intel stuff as rack-mount, so i?m wondering if it > was a prototype, or maybe a piece of internal/non-commercial hardware for > Intel's own use. > > I?m hoping someone here might be able to shed some light on this mystery. > > Pictures: https://imgur.com/gallery/lD74oSy < > https://imgur.com/gallery/lD74oSy> > > Thanks in advance. > > Josh Rice > Its reminiscent of a similar looking front panel here https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=678 Bill > From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jun 14 15:04:20 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 20:04:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: References: <1900260423.455731.1592153205975.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1900260423.455731.1592153205975@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <894112968.488483.1592165060528@mail.yahoo.com> thus? my? comment? of? an add on memory? store? etc...---? ?Ed? SMECC?In a message dated 6/14/2020 1:01:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time, billdegnan at gmail.com writes:? I?m 95% confident it?s not strictly a ?computer? blinkenlight panel, but rather an attached device, but that still hasn?t helped me narrow down what exactly it was from. From Rice43 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 14 15:05:08 2020 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 21:05:08 +0100 Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: References: <5EE649F7.4040800@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <2063F0AD-CCA8-4732-8246-D08FC3CFE8E7@btinternet.com> https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dysAAOSwqqJehZ-Y/s-l1600.jpg That?s off the listing. Sorry the photos came out funny/upside down, i guess my phone couldn?t work out which way up it was? I think the photos of the board numbers are clear enough in the IMGur link though. I can write them down if you wish. There?s no other markings on the PCB though, apart from the 3M printing on the raw PCB substrate > On Jun 14, 2020, at 8:31 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Al > Can you repeat what the text is? I can't make out what it says, even with magnification. > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 9:21 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 > > On 6/14/20 9:01 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> Any reason the picture is upside down? Also, blurry, so it is hard to read the labels. > > I can't find the original eBay listing right now. > The pictures were better on there > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 14 15:05:25 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 14:05:25 -0600 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: References: <1900260423.455731.1592153205975.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1900260423.455731.1592153205975@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56ac0508-dc28-a725-8873-f858412c6a95@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/14/2020 2:01 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, 12:46 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk > wrote: > >> >> Add on solid state memory unit some semi companies made tjem. For add to >> Dec and dg? Dunno. A guess >> .... ed smecc >> On Sunday, June 14, 2020 Joshua Rice via cctalk > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> Hi all. >> >> I recently bought a mystery blinkenlight panel. Closer inspection reveals >> it was manufactured by Intel in the early 70?s (1973), and some people on >> the book of faces suggested it was part of a ?device multiplexer?(?) >> >> I?m 95% confident it?s not strictly a ?computer? blinkenlight panel, but >> rather an attached device, but that still hasn?t helped me narrow down what >> exactly it was from. >> >> I?ve not seen any early Intel stuff as rack-mount, so i?m wondering if it >> was a prototype, or maybe a piece of internal/non-commercial hardware for >> Intel's own use. >> >> I?m hoping someone here might be able to shed some light on this mystery. >> >> Pictures: https://imgur.com/gallery/lD74oSy < >> https://imgur.com/gallery/lD74oSy> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Josh Rice >> > > Its reminiscent of a similar looking front panel here > https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=678 > Bill > >> 4004 or 8008 development system? bitsavers intel databook 1975 had a bit on them ... just front panel picture and call us for more information. From cube1 at charter.net Sun Jun 14 16:25:37 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 16:25:37 -0500 Subject: VHDL / IBM SMS Data gathering and HDL Synthesis Update Message-ID: Don't know if anybody much cares, but: The HDL synthesis aspect of the SMS data gathering / HDL synthesis application is coming along. I can now handle: - Oscillators (using a counter divider) - Delay lines (using a shift register, so limited to a reasonable number of FPGA clock clock cycles, so, say 200 ns is not unreasonable (20 bit shift register at 100 MHz). - Recognition and consolidation of individual signals into a "bus" when generating groups corresponding to a group of individual ALD sheets. (The individual ALD sheets use the individual signal names as they appear on the sheet). A simple database table associates a given individual signal with a bus, and identifies the bit in the bus that corresponds to the individual signal. So, I have not generated the IBM 1410 main oscillator, its main logic clock and its I Ring - used to control instruction decode. I have synthesized the logic clock into an FPGA and run it (with a slowed down 1410 oscillator so I could see what was going on.) Also, a word about VHDL - and the Xilinx Vivado. While GHDL is useful, I have found that Vivado is not slow at editing and *simulation*. Silly me - I got in the habit of synthesizing stuff before I tested it under simulation - partly because I didn't know any better at first. Vivado's waveform viewer has some advantages (and disadvantages) compared to what is available for GHDL. I have also started exploring a piece of "intellectual property" I can use - MicroBlaze - to allow my generated system to talk to my PC, via TCP, for things like lights and switches. (Kind of like how the Amdahl machines used to use first DG Novas, and later little UNIX systems for their consoles, giving them access to the internals of the machine.) I knew MicroBlaze existed, but now I have actually played with it a bit -- still learning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroBlaze From camiel at vaxbarn.com Sun Jun 14 15:26:20 2020 From: camiel at vaxbarn.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:26:20 +0200 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <1900260423.455731.1592153205975@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1900260423.455731.1592153205975.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1900260423.455731.1592153205975@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That would my my guess as well; add-on semiconductor memory for a 16-bit minicomputer. I know Intel made the in-4011 for the PDP-11, but I never saw a picture of it. Camiel > On Jun 14, 2020, at 6:46 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > > Add on solid state memory unit some semi companies made tjem. For add to Dec and dg? Dunno. A guess > .... ed smecc > On Sunday, June 14, 2020 Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > Hi all. > > I recently bought a mystery blinkenlight panel. Closer inspection reveals it was manufactured by Intel in the early 70?s (1973), and some people on the book of faces suggested it was part of a ?device multiplexer?(?) > > I?m 95% confident it?s not strictly a ?computer? blinkenlight panel, but rather an attached device, but that still hasn?t helped me narrow down what exactly it was from. > > I?ve not seen any early Intel stuff as rack-mount, so i?m wondering if it was a prototype, or maybe a piece of internal/non-commercial hardware for Intel's own use. > > I?m hoping someone here might be able to shed some light on this mystery. > > Pictures: https://imgur.com/gallery/lD74oSy > > Thanks in advance. > > Josh Rice From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 14 19:15:44 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 17:15:44 -0700 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <56ac0508-dc28-a725-8873-f858412c6a95@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1900260423.455731.1592153205975.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1900260423.455731.1592153205975@mail.yahoo.com> <56ac0508-dc28-a725-8873-f858412c6a95@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <27c14869-2eb5-cc23-a408-94e8efeed9bf@sydex.com> It would be useful if the legends on the panel were actually readable by mere mortals. Intel Memory Systems was very big in the early-mod 1970s. The reason was pretty simple--they offered add-on memory for IBM S/370 and other vendors cheaper than the OEMs could. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 14 19:18:43 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 17:18:43 -0700 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: References: <1900260423.455731.1592153205975.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1900260423.455731.1592153205975@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <70e33c76-1662-5210-501a-31d171640167@sydex.com> As a totally unrelated aside, few remember that Intel also made wristwatches. They had a subsidiary, Microma, that turned them out. National Semiconductor also made wristwatches. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jun 14 19:45:27 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:45:27 -0500 Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <2063F0AD-CCA8-4732-8246-D08FC3CFE8E7@btinternet.com> References: <5EE649F7.4040800@pico-systems.com> <2063F0AD-CCA8-4732-8246-D08FC3CFE8E7@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5EE6C4A7.90401@pico-systems.com> On 06/14/2020 03:05 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dysAAOSwqqJehZ-Y/s-l1600.jpg > > That?s off the listing. > > Clearly a panel for a memory device. Data is 16 bits plus 2 parity bits. There are separate lights for the data read bus and data write bus. The address is a bit funny : W0 W1 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jun 14 19:47:39 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:47:39 -0500 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <56ac0508-dc28-a725-8873-f858412c6a95@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1900260423.455731.1592153205975.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1900260423.455731.1592153205975@mail.yahoo.com> <56ac0508-dc28-a725-8873-f858412c6a95@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5EE6C52B.2070606@pico-systems.com> On 06/14/2020 03:05 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > 4004 or 8008 development system? bitsavers intel databook > 1975 > had a bit on them ... just front panel picture and call us > for more information. > Nope, way too many address bits, and 16 bits plus parity data word. Could possibly be some in-house test panel for a custom manufacturing or test system. It definitely looks like a one-off and not a production unit. Jon From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Jun 14 21:07:08 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:07:08 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 In-Reply-To: <4bb8fbbb-5d9f-df33-2285-3e64ae7abed7@bitsavers.org> References: <714f2f75-e891-a47b-2bb1-877bc49b9046@comcast.net> <4bb8fbbb-5d9f-df33-2285-3e64ae7abed7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0f30b023-fe80-c963-4449-98520171f30e@jwsss.com> On 6/13/2020 10:28 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 6/13/20 10:20 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> ?Do they still have it? > > The Y-MP was replaced by a cray-ette in the early 90s > > In the end the main use for it was for doing backups > with its tape robot A friend that worked there when the Cray showed up only used his login to learn unix command line programming such as it was. He didn't know of anyone doing much other with it either.? I think it was bought before there was a unix type OS under the Macos. thanks Jim From ethan at 757.org Sun Jun 14 21:16:03 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple 1 In-Reply-To: <0f30b023-fe80-c963-4449-98520171f30e@jwsss.com> References: <714f2f75-e891-a47b-2bb1-877bc49b9046@comcast.net> <4bb8fbbb-5d9f-df33-2285-3e64ae7abed7@bitsavers.org> <0f30b023-fe80-c963-4449-98520171f30e@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > He didn't know of anyone doing much other with it either.? I think it was > bought before there was a unix type OS under the Macos. > thanks > Jim https://wiki.c2.com/?AppleCrayComputer They bought it to use to design the next Macintosh CPU I thought (break away from the 68000 but never did), but that page talks about electronics layout. - Ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 14 22:41:33 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 03:41:33 +0000 Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <5EE6C4A7.90401@pico-systems.com> References: <5EE649F7.4040800@pico-systems.com> <2063F0AD-CCA8-4732-8246-D08FC3CFE8E7@btinternet.com>, <5EE6C4A7.90401@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I can see why I was having problems. The picture was upside down. It looked like Spanish or something. Do remember that Intel's claim to fame wasn't just micro processor. They were one of the first to do MOS RAMs for big machines. They were more into solid state memory systems than uPs, until after the 8080. It clearly isn't for some 4004 or 8008. It was likely monitoring some RAM for some mini. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jon Elson via cctalk Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 5:45 PM To: Joshua Rice ; General at ezwind.net ; Discussion@ Subject: Re: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 On 06/14/2020 03:05 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dysAAOSwqqJehZ-Y/s-l1600.jpg > > That?s off the listing. > > Clearly a panel for a memory device. Data is 16 bits plus 2 parity bits. There are separate lights for the data read bus and data write bus. The address is a bit funny : W0 W1 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Jon From jim.manley at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 23:35:41 2020 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:35:41 -0600 Subject: Apple 1 In-Reply-To: References: <714f2f75-e891-a47b-2bb1-877bc49b9046@comcast.net> <4bb8fbbb-5d9f-df33-2285-3e64ae7abed7@bitsavers.org> <0f30b023-fe80-c963-4449-98520171f30e@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Starting in 1987, future Mac product circuitry and VLSI designs were run on a Cray X-MP/48 for hardware and software simulations under Unicos Cray?s licensed version of Unix System V: Apple was the first company that Cray allowed to access their Network Systems Corporation (Minneapolis) developed high-speed channel, operating at 850Mbits per second, which Cray called its HSX channel. https://www.cbronline.com/news/apple_uses_cray_x_mp_and_unix_to_design_your_next_macintosh/ On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 8:16 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > He didn't know of anyone doing much other with it either. I think it > was > > bought before there was a unix type OS under the Macos. > > thanks > > Jim > > https://wiki.c2.com/?AppleCrayComputer > > They bought it to use to design the next Macintosh CPU I thought (break > away from the 68000 but never did), but that page talks about electronics > layout. > > - Ethan > From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jun 14 23:36:30 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 21:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 In-Reply-To: from Ethan O'Toole via cctalk at "Jun 14, 20 10:16:03 pm" Message-ID: <202006150436.05F4aUpL40435846@floodgap.com> > > He didn't know of anyone doing much other with it either.__ I think it was > > bought before there was a unix type OS under the Macos. > > https://wiki.c2.com/?AppleCrayComputer > > They bought it to use to design the next Macintosh CPU I thought That would be Aquarius. https://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2019/12/and-now-for-something-completely_29.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Just another Sojourner of the Dispersion (1 Peter 1:1) --------------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 14 23:57:02 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 21:57:02 -0700 Subject: Aquarius (was Re: Apple 1) In-Reply-To: <202006150436.05F4aUpL40435846@floodgap.com> References: <202006150436.05F4aUpL40435846@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 6/14/20 9:36 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >>> He didn't know of anyone doing much other with it either.__ I think it was >>> bought before there was a unix type OS under the Macos. >> >> https://wiki.c2.com/?AppleCrayComputer >> >> They bought it to use to design the next Macintosh CPU I thought > > That would be Aquarius. > > https://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2019/12/and-now-for-something-completely_29.html > "was brought in by Apple as outside expertise to try to rescue Aquarius." Actually, Al was hired as an Apple Fellow in 1985. His first project was "Trojan" a 68000 mac on an ISA card that mixed EGA and square pixel Mac video. I was the Mac-side programmer on the project. Marketing killed it before it got from ATG to product development. The justification for the Cray was to experiment with what could be done if you had a Macintosh with the power of a Cray. It had a pretty fancy frame buffer attached to it and some pretty sophisticated anti-aliased rendering was produced. About the only video I know that escaped from Valley Green 3 was the title and end credits for "Pencil Test" which weren't produced on a Mac, they were done on the Cray (I was the person responsible for pulling all of the frame sequences together from the Mac II distributed render farm and generating the D1 tape). From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Jun 15 00:28:28 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 05:28:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: References: <5EE649F7.4040800@pico-systems.com> <2063F0AD-CCA8-4732-8246-D08FC3CFE8E7@btinternet.com> <5EE6C4A7.90401@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <303319778.583448.1592198908482@mail.yahoo.com> there ya? go!(as? I? said...)?ED#?In a message dated 6/14/2020 8:41:43 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? It clearly isn't for some 4004 or 8008. It was likely monitoring some RAM for some mini. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 15 00:33:08 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:33:08 -0700 Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: References: <5EE649F7.4040800@pico-systems.com> <2063F0AD-CCA8-4732-8246-D08FC3CFE8E7@btinternet.com> <5EE6C4A7.90401@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <82cd8bf4-2a6a-16f2-474f-70a0d843afac@sydex.com> On 6/14/20 8:41 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I can see why I was having problems. The picture was upside down. It > looked like Spanish or something. Do remember that Intel's claim to > fame wasn't just micro processor. They were one of the first to do > MOS RAMs for big machines. They were more into solid state memory > systems than uPs, until after the 8080. It clearly isn't for some > 4004 or 8008. It was likely monitoring some RAM for some mini. Intel Memory Systems Division was largely responsible for saving Intel's bacon in the early 1970s. The MPU business with the 8008 and 4004 wasn't a moneymaker initially. However, selling DRAM assemblies for various minis (e.g. DG and DEC) as well as S/370 add-on memory amounted to a large portion of their early sales. IMSD was on the far end of Mathilda in Sunnyvale. Have a look at section 7 here: https://johncargin.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/intel-catalog-1973.pdf --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 04:09:46 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 10:09:46 +0100 Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <82cd8bf4-2a6a-16f2-474f-70a0d843afac@sydex.com> References: <5EE649F7.4040800@pico-systems.com> <2063F0AD-CCA8-4732-8246-D08FC3CFE8E7@btinternet.com> <5EE6C4A7.90401@pico-systems.com> <82cd8bf4-2a6a-16f2-474f-70a0d843afac@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1ba101d642f4$b74d05a0$25e710e0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via > cctalk > Sent: 15 June 2020 06:33 > To: dwight via cctalk > Subject: Re: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 > > On 6/14/20 8:41 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > I can see why I was having problems. The picture was upside down. It > > looked like Spanish or something. Do remember that Intel's claim to > > fame wasn't just micro processor. They were one of the first to do MOS > > RAMs for big machines. They were more into solid state memory systems > > than uPs, until after the 8080. It clearly isn't for some > > 4004 or 8008. It was likely monitoring some RAM for some mini. > > Intel Memory Systems Division was largely responsible for saving Intel's > bacon in the early 1970s. The MPU business with the 8008 and 4004 wasn't a > moneymaker initially. > > However, selling DRAM assemblies for various minis (e.g. DG and DEC) as > well as S/370 add-on memory amounted to a large portion of their early > sales. IMSD was on the far end of Mathilda in Sunnyvale. > I found this ad here:- https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9Ih5WQ-muXEC&pg=PT1&lpg=PT1&dq=ibm/370+t hird+party+memory+intel I think if we could read the legends on the front we might get a better idea of what system it was for... ... looks like 18-bits so something in the pdp-10 line? Dave > Have a look at section 7 here: > > https://johncargin.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/intel-catalog-1973.pdf > > --Chuck > > From Rice43 at btinternet.com Mon Jun 15 04:58:29 2020 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 10:58:29 +0100 Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <1ba101d642f4$b74d05a0$25e710e0$@gmail.com> References: <5EE649F7.4040800@pico-systems.com> <2063F0AD-CCA8-4732-8246-D08FC3CFE8E7@btinternet.com> <5EE6C4A7.90401@pico-systems.com> <82cd8bf4-2a6a-16f2-474f-70a0d843afac@sydex.com> <1ba101d642f4$b74d05a0$25e710e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <140A8993-090C-4FAE-B9B7-8C006CDDD932@btinternet.com> PDP-10 was 36-bit. You?re thinking of the PDP-1, 4, 7, 9 and 15 line of computers. However, it?s not actually 18-bit, but 2 8-bit bytes with parity for each byte. If it is indeed an early Intel memory addon for minicomputers, i?d expect it to be for the 16-bit DG Nova or PDP-11 line of machines. > On Jun 15, 2020, at 10:09 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk > On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via >> cctalk >> Sent: 15 June 2020 06:33 >> To: dwight via cctalk > >> Subject: Re: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 >> >> On 6/14/20 8:41 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: >>> I can see why I was having problems. The picture was upside down. It >>> looked like Spanish or something. Do remember that Intel's claim to >>> fame wasn't just micro processor. They were one of the first to do MOS >>> RAMs for big machines. They were more into solid state memory systems >>> than uPs, until after the 8080. It clearly isn't for some >>> 4004 or 8008. It was likely monitoring some RAM for some mini. >> >> Intel Memory Systems Division was largely responsible for saving Intel's >> bacon in the early 1970s. The MPU business with the 8008 and 4004 wasn't > a >> moneymaker initially. >> >> However, selling DRAM assemblies for various minis (e.g. DG and DEC) as >> well as S/370 add-on memory amounted to a large portion of their early >> sales. IMSD was on the far end of Mathilda in Sunnyvale. >> > > I found this ad here:- > > https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9Ih5WQ-muXEC&pg=PT1&lpg=PT1&dq=ibm/370+t > hird+party+memory+intel > > I think if we could read the legends on the front we might get a better idea > of what system it was for... > ... looks like 18-bits so something in the pdp-10 line? > > Dave > > >> Have a look at section 7 here: >> >> https://johncargin.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/intel-catalog-1973.pdf >> >> --Chuck From Rice43 at btinternet.com Mon Jun 15 05:01:55 2020 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 11:01:55 +0100 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <27c14869-2eb5-cc23-a408-94e8efeed9bf@sydex.com> References: <1900260423.455731.1592153205975.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1900260423.455731.1592153205975@mail.yahoo.com> <56ac0508-dc28-a725-8873-f858412c6a95@jetnet.ab.ca> <27c14869-2eb5-cc23-a408-94e8efeed9bf@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A491767-F14C-476B-ACC1-B879806BB3DA@btinternet.com> Somehow it seems the thread got fragmented. I posted it to the other half of this thread. Here?s a link to a high-quality picture of the front panel, straight from the listing. Turns out i?m crap at taking steady photos https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dysAAOSwqqJehZ-Y/s-l1600.jpg > On Jun 15, 2020, at 1:15 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > It would be useful if the legends on the panel were actually readable by > mere mortals. > > Intel Memory Systems was very big in the early-mod 1970s. The reason > was pretty simple--they offered add-on memory for IBM S/370 and other > vendors cheaper than the OEMs could. > > --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 05:40:36 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 11:40:36 +0100 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <4A491767-F14C-476B-ACC1-B879806BB3DA@btinternet.com> References: <1900260423.455731.1592153205975.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1900260423.455731.1592153205975@mail.yahoo.com> <56ac0508-dc28-a725-8873-f858412c6a95@jetnet.ab.ca> <27c14869-2eb5-cc23-a408-94e8efeed9bf@sydex.com> <4A491767-F14C-476B-ACC1-B879806BB3DA@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <1c1b01d64301$680625f0$381271d0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Joshua Rice via > cctalk > Sent: 15 June 2020 11:02 > To: Chuck Guzis ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 > > Somehow it seems the thread got fragmented. I posted it to the other half of > this thread. > > Here?s a link to a high-quality picture of the front panel, straight from the > listing. Turns out i?m crap at taking steady photos Its not so much being steady, if you are using a SmartPhone its getting it to focus when you are close. > > https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dysAAOSwqqJehZ-Y/s-l1600.jpg > > Nice so appears to be 16-bit memory, with the ability to write either byte independently. The numbering on the address doesn't seem to match PDP-11 or DG NOVA . But the numbering doesn't seem to match. I wonder if some kind of mainframe... > > On Jun 15, 2020, at 1:15 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > > > It would be useful if the legends on the panel were actually readable > > by mere mortals. > > > > Intel Memory Systems was very big in the early-mod 1970s. The reason > > was pretty simple--they offered add-on memory for IBM S/370 and other > > vendors cheaper than the OEMs could. > > > > --Chuck Dave From doug at doughq.com Mon Jun 15 06:29:59 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 21:29:59 +1000 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: <264644d8-b774-ff23-edbf-82166ea30d58@centurytel.net> References: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> <264644d8-b774-ff23-edbf-82166ea30d58@centurytel.net> Message-ID: I remember testing memory chips with a thumb. The one that took yoir fingerprint ofd was always faulty. Hopefully it's not whisker regrowth. That would be really frustrating. On Fri, 12 Jun. 2020, 12:15 am Charles via cctalk, wrote: > > On 6/11/20 2:29 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > > > > torsdag 11 juni 2020 skrev Charles via cctalk > >: > > > > > > On 6/10/20 4:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > > > On 06/10/2020 12:48 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > That leaves the unlikely possibility that one of the octal > > TTL devices, or ROMs. has developed a weird internal > > pathway that only interferes with DAL3 & 1 on some bit > > patterns, but not all the time. Seems like a zebra rather > > than a horse. The only part that drives multiple low-order > > DAL lines at once besides the E19-22 ROMs is the E55 LS245. > > > > Quite possible that this could happen when a specific device > > is driving the bus -- or that NOBODY is driving the bus in > > that state. When it is stuck at the ~1V level, try a resistor > > of about 1 K to ground on one of those lines. If it moves > > several hundred mV lower, it is a TTL open circuit. If it > > doesn't change at all, it is a bus contention (TWO drivers > > driving at once). > > > > Jon > > > > > > After much Googling, I discovered/remembered that the RQDX3 M7555 > > floppy controller card in my PDP-11/23+ system has a T11 CPU on > board! > > > > So I pulled the card and popped the T11 into the VT240. Guess what > > - the terminal still doesn't work!! Craptastic. At least it's not > > the most expensive and rarest part on the board... but now I'm > > really stumped. This isn't my first rodeo - in fact back in the > > 80's I used to design microprocessor systems for a living, and > > have continued to keep my hand in repairing my video arcade games > > and a PDP-8 system, among other projects. > > > > Meanwhile... the T11 DAL lines are only connected to a few parts > > that can drive onto that local bus. Time to have a look at the > > glue logic for the DRAM selects. Although the ROM chip selects > > seem to work, maybe the DRAM or something else actually IS > > conflicting despite the mixed signals (pun intended) ;) > > > > Time to break out the logic analyzer, and start burning pairs of > > 27256 EPROMs with test programs. Maybe initially just fill them > > with NOP's (000240 octal) with a jump to zero at the end! > > > > > > > > Now that you know the T11 is good I think it a good idea to attach a > > logic analyzer on the bus. > > > > I would then disassemble the ROM code and match that with the logic > > analyzer execution trace. Then it should be possible to find out what > > is going on. If one can rely on the fault code on the keyboard it is > > able to pass tests 0 to 4 successfully. Of course I have no idea what > > these test really do but assuming they do some more than advanced > > things I doubt that they would work if there are severe bus contention. > > > > If that would be the case I think the system would fail quite soon > > rather than on test 5. A guess is that this is a memory problem. > > > > Good luck! > > > > /Mattis > > ========= > > Thanks for the tip. I didn't see in the manuals that the keyboard light > pattern was actually a binary code, but that makes sense! I would have > expected an error message on the screen, but as I previously noted, the > video system itself does not seem to be working properly. > > Unfortunately my logic analyzer is an ancient Tek 7D01, the equivalent > of stone tools rather than metal ;) It's not really suited for doing > this kind of work, but it's what I have... I wonder if anyone has > already disassembled the code? > > The 4116's are soldered to the board, too. Since the memory map is shown > in the tech manual I could write a simple memory test and burn an EPROM. > > My fear is that one of the PALs has altered itself from tin-whisker > migration (fuse regrowth) :( > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 15 06:41:01 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 04:41:01 -0700 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <1c1b01d64301$680625f0$381271d0$@gmail.com> References: <1900260423.455731.1592153205975.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1900260423.455731.1592153205975@mail.yahoo.com> <56ac0508-dc28-a725-8873-f858412c6a95@jetnet.ab.ca> <27c14869-2eb5-cc23-a408-94e8efeed9bf@sydex.com> <4A491767-F14C-476B-ACC1-B879806BB3DA@btinternet.com> <1c1b01d64301$680625f0$381271d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <69dbe2b7-103d-c860-8210-2181b5b3b515@bitsavers.org> On 6/15/20 3:40 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > Nice so appears to be 16-bit memory, with the ability to write either byte independently. The numbering on the address doesn't seem to match PDP-11 or DG NOVA . > But the numbering doesn't seem to match. I wonder if some kind of mainframe... 16-bit 360/370 memory? were there 370 systems with a 16-bit data path? big-endian byte addressing (note there is one bit missing on the adr, A31) From ethan at 757.org Mon Jun 15 08:15:59 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 09:15:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple 1 In-Reply-To: <202006150436.05F4aUpL40435846@floodgap.com> References: <202006150436.05F4aUpL40435846@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > That would be Aquarius. > > https://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2019/12/and-now-for-something-completely_29.html http://intellivisionrevolution.com/files/resized/220082/811;384;6ada4a1cae75747bd8ee4a63b1e0e94b12f0592d.jpg :-) -- : Ethan O'Toole From ethan at 757.org Mon Jun 15 08:25:20 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 09:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aquarius (was Re: Apple 1) In-Reply-To: References: <202006150436.05F4aUpL40435846@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > Actually, Al was hired as an Apple Fellow in 1985. His first project was > "Trojan" a 68000 mac on an ISA card that mixed EGA and square pixel Mac > video. I was the Mac-side programmer on the project. Marketing killed it > before it got from ATG to product development. That is wild! That would have been an interesting product. > The justification for the Cray was to experiment with what could be done > if you had a Macintosh with the power of a Cray. It had a pretty fancy > frame buffer attached to it and some pretty sophisticated anti-aliased > rendering was produced. Frame buffer attached to Cray? Or Mac with a fancy framebuffer and offloading to the Cray? Pretty wild. > About the only video I know that escaped from Valley Green 3 was the > title and end credits for "Pencil Test" which weren't produced on a Mac, > they were done on the Cray (I was the person responsible for pulling all > of the frame sequences together from the Mac II distributed render farm > and generating the D1 tape). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXPHlQuXWR0 -- : Ethan O'Toole From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Mon Jun 15 07:37:25 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 07:37:25 -0500 Subject: VHDL / IBM SMS Data gathering and HDL Synthesis Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very cool! I know of MicroBlaze, but always thought it wasn't free? --tom On 6/14/20 4:25 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > Don't know if anybody much cares, but: > > The HDL synthesis aspect of the SMS data gathering / HDL synthesis > application is coming along. I can now handle: > > - Oscillators (using a counter divider) > > - Delay lines (using a shift register, so limited to a reasonable number > of FPGA clock clock cycles, so, say 200 ns is not unreasonable (20 bit > shift register at 100 MHz). > > - Recognition and consolidation of individual signals into a "bus" when > generating groups corresponding to a group of individual ALD sheets. > (The individual ALD sheets use the individual signal names as they > appear on the sheet). A simple database table associates a given > individual signal with a bus, and identifies the bit in the bus that > corresponds to the individual signal. > > So, I have not generated the IBM 1410 main oscillator, its main logic > clock and its I Ring - used to control instruction decode. I have > synthesized the logic clock into an FPGA and run it (with a slowed down > 1410 oscillator so I could see what was going on.) > > Also, a word about VHDL - and the Xilinx Vivado. While GHDL is useful, > I have found that Vivado is not slow at editing and *simulation*. Silly > me - I got in the habit of synthesizing stuff before I tested it under > simulation - partly because I didn't know any better at first. Vivado's > waveform viewer has some advantages (and disadvantages) compared to what > is available for GHDL. > > I have also started exploring a piece of "intellectual property" I can > use - MicroBlaze - to allow my generated system to talk to my PC, via > TCP, for things like lights and switches. (Kind of like how the Amdahl > machines used to use first DG Novas, and later little UNIX systems for > their consoles, giving them access to the internals of the machine.) > > I knew MicroBlaze existed, but now I have actually played with it a bit > -- still learning. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroBlaze > > > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 08:35:47 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 15:35:47 +0200 Subject: Aquarius (was Re: Apple 1) In-Reply-To: References: <202006150436.05F4aUpL40435846@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 15:25, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > > > Actually, Al was hired as an Apple Fellow in 1985. His first project was > > "Trojan" a 68000 mac on an ISA card that mixed EGA and square pixel Mac > > video. I was the Mac-side programmer on the project. Marketing killed it > > before it got from ATG to product development. > > That is wild! That would have been an interesting product. It certainly would. I never heard of this before. There is a technological precedent -- well, maybe not before, but equivalent, anyway. https://qlwiki.qlforum.co.uk/doku.php?id=qlwiki:qxl_card This is basically an enhanced (68040-based) Sinclair QL on an ISA card. It uses the DOS PC for all I/O, keeps its files in the DOS filesystem, etc., but it runs apps on its own processor in its own RAM. Given that the original QL had very slow stringy-floppy drives, fairly low-spec and quite slow graphics, this was quite a good, elegant compromise. Conceptually similar to the Acorn Springboard: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/acorn/Acorn_PC_ARM/PCW_Jan88_Springboard.pdf http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/docs/Acorn/Brochures/Acorn_APP125_Springboard.pdf An ARM co-pro for a PC compatible, on an ISA card. But you had to write your own apps for the Springboard -- it wasn't Archimedes-compatible (and given that the Archie had very good sound, graphics and I/O for its time, it would have been horribly crippled if it was. The QXL card made a PC into a (partial) QL-compatible, able to run QL apps. A chap at ByteFest last summer had a QXL installed in an Amstrad ALT386, itself now a rare and collectible machine -- a very early 386 colour laptop, complete with a short ISA slot. So, 2 rare machines in one, and a powerful portable QL! Language issues meant I did not find out much more... http://www.bytefest.cz/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Mon Jun 15 08:51:55 2020 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 06:51:55 -0700 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes Message-ID: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> While going through my assortment of old vacuum tubes looking for audio treasures, I found a handful of IBM branded ones. Mostly 5965, but there's one 5963 mixed in. These are dual triodes with the same pinout as common small-signal audio tubes such as 12AX7/7025/ECC83, but characteristics closer to 12AT7 or 12AU7. My RCA Receiving Tube Manual says they're designed to withstand being held in cutoff for long periods of time, and mentions digital applications. Anyone know what kind of IBM machine these would have been used in? From Rice43 at btinternet.com Mon Jun 15 09:03:13 2020 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 15:03:13 +0100 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> Message-ID: Hard to say, without the modules they came from. As far as my (limited) understanding of vacuum tube logic goes, double triodes were very common for implementing basic boolean logic functions. Therefore, most IBM vacuum tube computers and data processing machines would have hundreds/thousands of similar dual-triode tubes making up the logic. Basically, they could be out of any vacuum tube machine made by IBM. IBM 600 and IBM 700 series machines being the most likely. > On Jun 15, 2020, at 2:51 PM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > > While going through my assortment of old vacuum tubes looking for audio > treasures, I found a handful of IBM branded ones. Mostly 5965, but > there's one 5963 mixed in. > > These are dual triodes with the same pinout as common small-signal audio > tubes such as 12AX7/7025/ECC83, but characteristics closer to 12AT7 or > 12AU7. My RCA Receiving Tube Manual says they're designed to withstand > being held in cutoff for long periods of time, and mentions digital > applications. > > Anyone know what kind of IBM machine these would have been used in? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 09:24:01 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 10:24:01 -0400 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> Message-ID: > While going through my assortment of old vacuum tubes looking for audio > treasures, I found a handful of IBM branded ones. Mostly 5965, but > there's one 5963 mixed in. Who made them? -- Will From cube1 at charter.net Mon Jun 15 10:19:11 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 10:19:11 -0500 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <4A491767-F14C-476B-ACC1-B879806BB3DA@btinternet.com> References: <4A491767-F14C-476B-ACC1-B879806BB3DA@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <4385284D-3687-47B0-B89E-E6131C58D779@charter.net> The IBM mainframe memory add ons I was familiar with were from Itel rather than Intel. I don?t see how intel could have had semi memory for mainframes in the early 1970s. Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 15, 2020, at 8:32 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > ?Somehow it seems the thread got fragmented. I posted it to the other half of this thread. > > Here?s a link to a high-quality picture of the front panel, straight from the listing. Turns out i?m crap at taking steady photos > > https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dysAAOSwqqJehZ-Y/s-l1600.jpg > >> On Jun 15, 2020, at 1:15 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> It would be useful if the legends on the panel were actually readable by >> mere mortals. >> >> Intel Memory Systems was very big in the early-mod 1970s. The reason >> was pretty simple--they offered add-on memory for IBM S/370 and other >> vendors cheaper than the OEMs could. >> >> --Chuck > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 10:41:58 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 16:41:58 +0100 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: <264644d8-b774-ff23-edbf-82166ea30d58@centurytel.net> References: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> <264644d8-b774-ff23-edbf-82166ea30d58@centurytel.net> Message-ID: > My fear is that one of the PALs has altered itself from tin-whisker > migration (fuse regrowth) :( I've finally looked at the printset for the VT240 and I must be missing something.... The only PALs I can find are the 'logic units' in the video memory updating circuitry. That circuitry is pretty much the same as .... the Rainbow colour graphics board and I suspect the PAL logic is much the same too. I have the Rainbow's PAL equations if you need them but I doubt that's the problem. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 15 10:44:24 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 08:44:24 -0700 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <4385284D-3687-47B0-B89E-E6131C58D779@charter.net> References: <4A491767-F14C-476B-ACC1-B879806BB3DA@btinternet.com> <4385284D-3687-47B0-B89E-E6131C58D779@charter.net> Message-ID: On 6/15/20 8:19 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > The IBM mainframe memory add ons I was familiar with were from Itel rather than Intel. I don?t see how intel could have had semi memory for mainframes in the early 1970s. > Intel used to brag in its ads that it manufactured more memory than IBM. Look into some of the old (75-78) Computerworld ads online,say: shorturl.at/djnEV For a timeline of add-on memory see: https://www.intel-vintage.info/timeline19691979.htm Particularly those entries starting with "IN-" Cheers, Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 11:18:22 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 12:18:22 -0400 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: References: <4A491767-F14C-476B-ACC1-B879806BB3DA@btinternet.com> <4385284D-3687-47B0-B89E-E6131C58D779@charter.net> Message-ID: can anyone tell me what this is (manufacturer)? The font and such looks similar to the panel you are discussing in this thread. http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Temple/Manual-Automatic-Switch-Control.jpg thanks Bill On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 11:44 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 6/15/20 8:19 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > The IBM mainframe memory add ons I was familiar with were from Itel > rather than Intel. I don?t see how intel could have had semi memory for > mainframes in the early 1970s. > > > > Intel used to brag in its ads that it manufactured more memory than IBM. > Look into some of the old (75-78) Computerworld ads online,say: > > shorturl.at/djnEV > > For a timeline of add-on memory see: > > https://www.intel-vintage.info/timeline19691979.htm > > Particularly those entries starting with "IN-" > > Cheers, > Chuck > From cube1 at charter.net Mon Jun 15 11:19:14 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 11:19:14 -0500 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B2E11E5-EE7D-4A3C-8D47-0E07C235DF80@charter.net> Yes, but that is *MID* 70s, not early 70s Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 15, 2020, at 10:44 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 6/15/20 8:19 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> The IBM mainframe memory add ons I was familiar with were from Itel rather than Intel. I don?t see how intel could have had semi memory for mainframes in the early 1970s. >> > > Intel used to brag in its ads that it manufactured more memory than IBM. > Look into some of the old (75-78) Computerworld ads online,say: > > shorturl.at/djnEV > > For a timeline of add-on memory see: > > https://www.intel-vintage.info/timeline19691979.htm > > Particularly those entries starting with "IN-" > > Cheers, > Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 15 11:41:39 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 09:41:39 -0700 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <4B2E11E5-EE7D-4A3C-8D47-0E07C235DF80@charter.net> References: <4B2E11E5-EE7D-4A3C-8D47-0E07C235DF80@charter.net> Message-ID: I did say that (with a pun): "Intel Memory Systems was very big in the early-mod 1970s." in my original post. The "mod revival" occurred in the UK in the late 1970s. --Chuck On 6/15/20 9:19 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Yes, but that is *MID* 70s, not early 70s > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 15, 2020, at 10:44 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> ?On 6/15/20 8:19 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >>> The IBM mainframe memory add ons I was familiar with were from Itel rather than Intel. I don?t see how intel could have had semi memory for mainframes in the early 1970s. >>> >> >> Intel used to brag in its ads that it manufactured more memory than IBM. >> Look into some of the old (75-78) Computerworld ads online,say: >> >> shorturl.at/djnEV >> >> For a timeline of add-on memory see: >> >> https://www.intel-vintage.info/timeline19691979.htm >> >> Particularly those entries starting with "IN-" >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck -- --Chuck Sent from my digital computer From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jun 15 12:21:28 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 12:21:28 -0500 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <4385284D-3687-47B0-B89E-E6131C58D779@charter.net> References: <4A491767-F14C-476B-ACC1-B879806BB3DA@btinternet.com> <4385284D-3687-47B0-B89E-E6131C58D779@charter.net> Message-ID: <5EE7AE18.4040701@pico-systems.com> On 06/15/2020 10:19 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > The IBM mainframe memory add ons I was familiar with were from Itel rather than Intel. I don?t see how intel could have had semi memory for mainframes in the early 1970s. We had Intersil static RAM on our IBM 370/145 machines in the early 1970's. These were serviced by Memorex. It looks like some of the revision dates on the schematics are 1977, though. Jon From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Jun 15 14:55:21 2020 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 21:55:21 +0200 Subject: TU58 dump tool on Linux? In-Reply-To: References: <2E0CEA4D-CDDB-4029-91E2-6FABFC09E1EB@forecast.name> <20200611141858.tj6ntxpvc5itav47@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20200615195521.cfnxkqbtiguqt27b@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2020-06-11 10:55:02 -0600, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 8:18 AM Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > I don't have a TU58, but using nbdkit[1] or BUSE[2] (which seems to > > hook up as a NBD device as well) it should be quite easy to make it > > avaliable as a block device. For reading and writing, this should be > > pretty straight forward. > > Yes, that could certainly be done, but it's a fair bit more work than just > writing a tape dump program. I'm not sure... But I guess it's quite pointless to attempt to work on something like this without being able to test it with actual hardware. :-( Just for the fun of it, I just checked eBay for drives, but there's nothing viable around right now. Maybe I'll come back to it at some later time? MfG, JBG -- From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon Jun 15 20:13:16 2020 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 20:13:16 -0500 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: References: <10c9f462-6d59-539b-0b87-57f0639b95f8@centurytel.net> <5EE15137.7090700@pico-systems.com> <264644d8-b774-ff23-edbf-82166ea30d58@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <49082542-7334-84ad-8f68-6be8d819b0c0@centurytel.net> Make that "fuse-link PROMs". My mistake. -Charles On 6/15/20 10:41 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> My fear is that one of the PALs has altered itself from tin-whisker >> migration (fuse regrowth) :( > I've finally looked at the printset for the VT240 and I must be > missing something.... > > The only PALs I can find are the 'logic units' in the video memory > updating circuitry. That circuitry is pretty much the same as .... the > Rainbow colour graphics board and I suspect the PAL logic is much the > same too. I have the Rainbow's PAL equations if you need them but I > doubt that's the problem. > > -tony From rickb at bensene.com Mon Jun 15 21:41:02 2020 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 19:41:02 -0700 Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D429F@mail.bensene.com> Josh R. wrote: > I recently bought a mystery blinkenlight panel. Closer inspection reveals it was manufactured by Intel in the early 70?s (1973), and some people on the book of faces suggested it was part of a ?device > multiplexer?(?) > I?m hoping someone here might be able to shed some light on this mystery. I suspect from looking it over, and given that Intel's early business was primarily random access static and dynamic memory ICs, that this was the console of some kind of memory test system. I don't know for sure, though, it's just a guess. I took the upside down image, flipped it, and did some image enhancement on it to make out the legends on the indicators and switches. Based on what I see, my suspicion seems plausible. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From cube1 at charter.net Mon Jun 15 22:11:23 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 22:11:23 -0500 Subject: VHDL / IBM SMS Data gathering and HDL Synthesis Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24d1d70c-9f7d-2c81-0642-17bc7e5c108c@charter.net> MicroBlaze is free with Vivado and the Digilent Nexys4 I am using has a Xilinx Artix 7 XC7A100T on it, which allows one to use Vivado for free on it, via a WebPack license (The free WebPack license is restricted to certain chips.) https://www.xilinx.com/products/design-tools/mb-mcs.html https://www.xilinx.com/products/design-tools/vivado/vivado-webpack.html (WebPack is the license I am under) which includes the IP integrator (allowing one to place a MicroBlaze processor into a project) And, since version 2016.1, the Xilinx SDK (which has the standalone OS for MicroBlaze, C compiler, etc.) has no additional licensing requirements. https://www.xilinx.com/support/answers/71607.html Finally, there are, apparently, some open source clones fo MicroBlaze: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroBlaze#Clones JRJ On 6/15/2020 7:37 AM, Tom Uban wrote: > Very cool! > > I know of MicroBlaze, but always thought it wasn't free? > > --tom > > On 6/14/20 4:25 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> Don't know if anybody much cares, but: >> >> The HDL synthesis aspect of the SMS data gathering / HDL synthesis >> application is coming along. I can now handle: >> >> - Oscillators (using a counter divider) >> >> - Delay lines (using a shift register, so limited to a reasonable number >> of FPGA clock clock cycles, so, say 200 ns is not unreasonable (20 bit >> shift register at 100 MHz). >> >> - Recognition and consolidation of individual signals into a "bus" when >> generating groups corresponding to a group of individual ALD sheets. >> (The individual ALD sheets use the individual signal names as they >> appear on the sheet). A simple database table associates a given >> individual signal with a bus, and identifies the bit in the bus that >> corresponds to the individual signal. >> >> So, I have not generated the IBM 1410 main oscillator, its main logic >> clock and its I Ring - used to control instruction decode. I have >> synthesized the logic clock into an FPGA and run it (with a slowed down >> 1410 oscillator so I could see what was going on.) >> >> Also, a word about VHDL - and the Xilinx Vivado. While GHDL is useful, >> I have found that Vivado is not slow at editing and *simulation*. Silly >> me - I got in the habit of synthesizing stuff before I tested it under >> simulation - partly because I didn't know any better at first. Vivado's >> waveform viewer has some advantages (and disadvantages) compared to what >> is available for GHDL. >> >> I have also started exploring a piece of "intellectual property" I can >> use - MicroBlaze - to allow my generated system to talk to my PC, via >> TCP, for things like lights and switches. (Kind of like how the Amdahl >> machines used to use first DG Novas, and later little UNIX systems for >> their consoles, giving them access to the internals of the machine.) >> >> I knew MicroBlaze existed, but now I have actually played with it a bit >> -- still learning. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroBlaze >> >> >> > From justgold79 at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 18:44:04 2020 From: justgold79 at gmail.com (Justin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 19:44:04 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 In-Reply-To: References: <714f2f75-e891-a47b-2bb1-877bc49b9046@comcast.net> <4bb8fbbb-5d9f-df33-2285-3e64ae7abed7@bitsavers.org> <0f30b023-fe80-c963-4449-98520171f30e@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Robert Cray always bragged that the newest Apple was designed with a Cray, whereas the newest Cray was designed with an Apple. A superlative example of the KISS principle, if it's true. On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, 10:16 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > He didn't know of anyone doing much other with it either. I think it > was > > bought before there was a unix type OS under the Macos. > > thanks > > Jim > > https://wiki.c2.com/?AppleCrayComputer > > They bought it to use to design the next Macintosh CPU I thought (break > away from the 68000 but never did), but that page talks about electronics > layout. > > - Ethan > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 15 23:59:03 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 21:59:03 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 In-Reply-To: References: <714f2f75-e891-a47b-2bb1-877bc49b9046@comcast.net> <4bb8fbbb-5d9f-df33-2285-3e64ae7abed7@bitsavers.org> <0f30b023-fe80-c963-4449-98520171f30e@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 6/15/20 4:44 PM, Justin Goldberg via cctalk wrote: > Robert Cray always bragged that the newest Apple was designed with a Cray, > whereas the newest Cray was designed with an Apple. A superlative example > of the KISS principle, if it's true. > Who is Robert Cray? Any relation to Seymour? --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 16 07:21:12 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:21:12 -0700 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech Message-ID: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> With Jay retiring, what are the hosting plans for these mailing lists? From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jun 16 09:56:25 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:56:25 -0500 Subject: Apple 1 In-Reply-To: References: <714f2f75-e891-a47b-2bb1-877bc49b9046@comcast.net> <4bb8fbbb-5d9f-df33-2285-3e64ae7abed7@bitsavers.org> <0f30b023-fe80-c963-4449-98520171f30e@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5EE8DD99.8050501@pico-systems.com> On 06/15/2020 11:59 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/15/20 4:44 PM, Justin Goldberg via cctalk wrote: >> Robert Cray always bragged that the newest Apple was designed with a Cray, >> whereas the newest Cray was designed with an Apple. A superlative example >> of the KISS principle, if it's true. >> > Who is Robert Cray? Any relation to Seymour? > > He's a musician. Jon From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Tue Jun 16 09:58:14 2020 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:58:14 -0700 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> On Mon, 2020-06-15 at 10:24 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > While going through my assortment of old vacuum tubes looking for audio > > treasures, I found a handful of IBM branded ones. Mostly 5965, but > > there's one 5963 mixed in. > > Who made them? Good question. They have an IBM logo and "Made in USA", along with the part number (5965 or 5963) and a bunch of numbers that might give a hint as to manufacturer. Any suggestions on how to decode them? These came to me from my father, who worked in the Vacuum Tubes department at GE for a while when I was growing up, so there's a good chance the OEM was GE. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 10:04:49 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:04:49 -0400 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> Message-ID: > Good question. They have an IBM logo and "Made in USA", along with the > part number (5965 or 5963) and a bunch of numbers that might give a hint > as to manufacturer. Any suggestions on how to decode them? What are the numbers? Details, man! -- Will From ethan at 757.org Tue Jun 16 10:15:35 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:15:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple 1 In-Reply-To: <5EE8DD99.8050501@pico-systems.com> References: <714f2f75-e891-a47b-2bb1-877bc49b9046@comcast.net> <4bb8fbbb-5d9f-df33-2285-3e64ae7abed7@bitsavers.org> <0f30b023-fe80-c963-4449-98520171f30e@jwsss.com> <5EE8DD99.8050501@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: >> Who is Robert Cray? Any relation to Seymour? > He's a musician. > Jon That plugs up the eBay searches for Cray Computer posters. Ethan From camiel at vaxbarn.com Tue Jun 16 10:13:45 2020 From: camiel at vaxbarn.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:13:45 +0200 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <6693E23B-1080-4D98-A553-E8B73C10B8B1@vaxbarn.com> Mosyt likely GE. "IBM did the final assembly, but more than 400 companies supplied parts and subassemblies for its computers, including GE for vacuum tubes and 3M for magnetic tapes.? (https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/early-computer-companies/5/111) > On Jun 16, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 2020-06-15 at 10:24 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >>> While going through my assortment of old vacuum tubes looking for audio >>> treasures, I found a handful of IBM branded ones. Mostly 5965, but >>> there's one 5963 mixed in. >> >> Who made them? > > Good question. They have an IBM logo and "Made in USA", along with the > part number (5965 or 5963) and a bunch of numbers that might give a hint > as to manufacturer. Any suggestions on how to decode them? > > These came to me from my father, who worked in the Vacuum Tubes > department at GE for a while when I was growing up, so there's a good > chance the OEM was GE. From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Tue Jun 16 09:51:19 2020 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:51:19 +0100 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board Message-ID: <01d701d643ed$9922e780$cb68b680$@vanpeborgh.eu> Guys, I have acquired this board and have trouble assigning it to a particular computer manufacturer and type: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/byRPH3wCR2aqxGX9U8BZfFTT_XtF7QCKSyVXoNmGIk UheiJ5BWqxYaCWdEshppLGYkOqUD7fl9XNeVzO_tDRKVOtbC3Js7T-pOvNUHs9MY9A36fc7dU6ro 1i7hx9Uhcfc6ukEGIdC5Ac6aTQhEFFoeWBxiI6Z24hZdvq1r6vRb4o-Lj778Wbo15hwxu0JxMuxE tcopNv0FG0_g6nUv0Eofalqu4TmgPfUWVCd4Y4LdA0pnhDRMYF5c2ASzS00TsyukCVrUyr298tjo vztVzUGEPHNL1beVCriuQIBLITaEMX3N8EBDuxpfav0vHFuyy9yfAgUI4uJB9qT6aFGEk2KplIVt yNWZf9phTdj-jLtqns9WvdA9Ur2klrk4uPzMyWg6SKTKRlpMrvbJuMnqZodzxPFPvWCG5--kVVBD KRAXW8xOTOPyxXx0xrcPifO49ni2SFYIkZgTb9d4gzvJaM8ugEb-jqHlc7uqHz5glwe4PfoN838w zMozr43veZSNHRTm9IMfON-w7xvbVufJpa_MzhuaTlKf9pvVcRIuxfhG4pMeVq7K6phhHpsKPfG5 h4BRgDSimCE8mToI35IWS3Ty8j01-6bibKH_kB-t35aIdkv7JIC-YZ1sDoguSdyk8h1xbM2d9i_U LFQYVC0oCHESgEGdqzGO3ntgwmV4khjgaQkcp2Bk-TuC7Nwrl57JI=w654-h871-no?authuser= 0 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HvltevPwIvyJF0qiAJR6wCAkI4lHfFGL2Gos5uoT4a qEJNFBAwJ3m6XX8E6k0m515EYgZJMaCwFGXiGiTCkxDeT396EjsbkukK3_XYqNDjfU8o3Pbtdq8z vm_q7MXShANXVFUL2wjXEbAhvBug1h42tZnxpDaxTCeNIHjqF2bgs6J_S3wCjmx538E4AuHCHxrr CqIr8yvL7AGlZXCWe8u05YNNZbIrUCYHbTtxh15hc0SwfRPzQ2U2v-pPxHs7-rx5mPpwxovbp24a CdwLBf5RRvvEZWZgyDGKG8xdF-al4kQdZMgxrVVXFMse3ee_J-QaYgALUxckGeWp2QxM4wolrd8Q Y1PqaMaTgbws5WSrOeBBBZrhmrUeL4TzZAlCA4-FqtRpoPIA339y9JRixB8Q6LlUeNsWzlqGqkvC JSCHlh_hpCXgwemhOtF4B1CLvNGs-PSZjTsnj_KOeSgeINz5Sc6TCrHmnxCcIY6D42aKMJRHZ9I9 7Z02FLsKwN6IKLxjifZvrkmEX4L8qXLbd8cuF0uf1PMjwC9WNC1_QpOmMiJOrBloG9pdrHRGvmfR RPQE7c6_HxVklEpIbxqkLmQVkKF-oM8VYS3A11tvslxiZUcvQcEhuEYhPLoqTD8PDikYhxKyVLhq S0DC-bIVBDDLeqiegQelHFjhptKwgs-0Q5mMrxvE6rdsd6-ipEf5Q=w654-h871-no?authuser= 0 Smells of (early) 1960s transistorized. No helpful marking apart from * "GATE JJ01" on SIDE A. (components). * "C NT OL DATA" on side B (solder traces). Big transistors are Motorola "180376008". Also, any ideas what the "246 636 B" boxes are, they have four legs? Can any of you of mature years suggest anything? Many thanks, peter || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 "Our times are in God's wise and loving hands" || | | | | | | | | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 10:41:49 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:41:49 -0400 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: <6693E23B-1080-4D98-A553-E8B73C10B8B1@vaxbarn.com> References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> <6693E23B-1080-4D98-A553-E8B73C10B8B1@vaxbarn.com> Message-ID: GE did not make many tubes for IBM except for some made for SAGE devices. -- Will On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:38 AM Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk wrote: > > Mosyt likely GE. > > "IBM did the final assembly, but more than 400 companies supplied parts and subassemblies for its computers, including GE for vacuum tubes and 3M for magnetic tapes.? (https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/early-computer-companies/5/111) > > > On Jun 16, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Mon, 2020-06-15 at 10:24 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> While going through my assortment of old vacuum tubes looking for audio > >>> treasures, I found a handful of IBM branded ones. Mostly 5965, but > >>> there's one 5963 mixed in. > >> > >> Who made them? > > > > Good question. They have an IBM logo and "Made in USA", along with the > > part number (5965 or 5963) and a bunch of numbers that might give a hint > > as to manufacturer. Any suggestions on how to decode them? > > > > These came to me from my father, who worked in the Vacuum Tubes > > department at GE for a while when I was growing up, so there's a good > > chance the OEM was GE. > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 16 10:56:54 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:56:54 -0700 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board In-Reply-To: <01d701d643ed$9922e780$cb68b680$@vanpeborgh.eu> References: <01d701d643ed$9922e780$cb68b680$@vanpeborgh.eu> Message-ID: <2c79bbee-8245-ce59-a67b-94dc360259f0@sydex.com> Sorry, Peter, but when pasting your links into my browser, I get a white square with a circle with a hyphen in the center. Nothing more. Perhaps it's a permission issue? --Chuck On 6/16/20 7:51 AM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk wrote: > Guys, > > I have acquired this board and have trouble assigning it to a particular > computer manufacturer and type: > > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/byRPH3wCR2aqxGX9U8BZfFTT_XtF7QCKSyVXoNmGIk > UheiJ5BWqxYaCWdEshppLGYkOqUD7fl9XNeVzO_tDRKVOtbC3Js7T-pOvNUHs9MY9A36fc7dU6ro > 1i7hx9Uhcfc6ukEGIdC5Ac6aTQhEFFoeWBxiI6Z24hZdvq1r6vRb4o-Lj778Wbo15hwxu0JxMuxE > tcopNv0FG0_g6nUv0Eofalqu4TmgPfUWVCd4Y4LdA0pnhDRMYF5c2ASzS00TsyukCVrUyr298tjo > vztVzUGEPHNL1beVCriuQIBLITaEMX3N8EBDuxpfav0vHFuyy9yfAgUI4uJB9qT6aFGEk2KplIVt > yNWZf9phTdj-jLtqns9WvdA9Ur2klrk4uPzMyWg6SKTKRlpMrvbJuMnqZodzxPFPvWCG5--kVVBD > KRAXW8xOTOPyxXx0xrcPifO49ni2SFYIkZgTb9d4gzvJaM8ugEb-jqHlc7uqHz5glwe4PfoN838w > zMozr43veZSNHRTm9IMfON-w7xvbVufJpa_MzhuaTlKf9pvVcRIuxfhG4pMeVq7K6phhHpsKPfG5 > h4BRgDSimCE8mToI35IWS3Ty8j01-6bibKH_kB-t35aIdkv7JIC-YZ1sDoguSdyk8h1xbM2d9i_U > LFQYVC0oCHESgEGdqzGO3ntgwmV4khjgaQkcp2Bk-TuC7Nwrl57JI=w654-h871-no?authuser= > 0 > > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HvltevPwIvyJF0qiAJR6wCAkI4lHfFGL2Gos5uoT4a > qEJNFBAwJ3m6XX8E6k0m515EYgZJMaCwFGXiGiTCkxDeT396EjsbkukK3_XYqNDjfU8o3Pbtdq8z > vm_q7MXShANXVFUL2wjXEbAhvBug1h42tZnxpDaxTCeNIHjqF2bgs6J_S3wCjmx538E4AuHCHxrr > CqIr8yvL7AGlZXCWe8u05YNNZbIrUCYHbTtxh15hc0SwfRPzQ2U2v-pPxHs7-rx5mPpwxovbp24a > CdwLBf5RRvvEZWZgyDGKG8xdF-al4kQdZMgxrVVXFMse3ee_J-QaYgALUxckGeWp2QxM4wolrd8Q > Y1PqaMaTgbws5WSrOeBBBZrhmrUeL4TzZAlCA4-FqtRpoPIA339y9JRixB8Q6LlUeNsWzlqGqkvC > JSCHlh_hpCXgwemhOtF4B1CLvNGs-PSZjTsnj_KOeSgeINz5Sc6TCrHmnxCcIY6D42aKMJRHZ9I9 > 7Z02FLsKwN6IKLxjifZvrkmEX4L8qXLbd8cuF0uf1PMjwC9WNC1_QpOmMiJOrBloG9pdrHRGvmfR > RPQE7c6_HxVklEpIbxqkLmQVkKF-oM8VYS3A11tvslxiZUcvQcEhuEYhPLoqTD8PDikYhxKyVLhq > S0DC-bIVBDDLeqiegQelHFjhptKwgs-0Q5mMrxvE6rdsd6-ipEf5Q=w654-h871-no?authuser= > 0 From mechanic_2 at charter.net Tue Jun 16 11:00:13 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:00:13 -0500 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board In-Reply-To: <2c79bbee-8245-ce59-a67b-94dc360259f0@sydex.com> References: <01d701d643ed$9922e780$cb68b680$@vanpeborgh.eu> <2c79bbee-8245-ce59-a67b-94dc360259f0@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5EE8EC8D.4050809@charter.net> Chuck, I get the same thing! GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 6/16/2020 10:56 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Sorry, Peter, but when pasting your links into my browser, I get a white > square with a circle with a hyphen in the center. Nothing more. > > Perhaps it's a permission issue? > > --Chuck > > > > On 6/16/20 7:51 AM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk wrote: >> Guys, >> >> I have acquired this board and have trouble assigning it to a particular >> computer manufacturer and type: >> >> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/byRPH3wCR2aqxGX9U8BZfFTT_XtF7QCKSyVXoNmGIk >> UheiJ5BWqxYaCWdEshppLGYkOqUD7fl9XNeVzO_tDRKVOtbC3Js7T-pOvNUHs9MY9A36fc7dU6ro >> 1i7hx9Uhcfc6ukEGIdC5Ac6aTQhEFFoeWBxiI6Z24hZdvq1r6vRb4o-Lj778Wbo15hwxu0JxMuxE >> tcopNv0FG0_g6nUv0Eofalqu4TmgPfUWVCd4Y4LdA0pnhDRMYF5c2ASzS00TsyukCVrUyr298tjo >> vztVzUGEPHNL1beVCriuQIBLITaEMX3N8EBDuxpfav0vHFuyy9yfAgUI4uJB9qT6aFGEk2KplIVt >> yNWZf9phTdj-jLtqns9WvdA9Ur2klrk4uPzMyWg6SKTKRlpMrvbJuMnqZodzxPFPvWCG5--kVVBD >> KRAXW8xOTOPyxXx0xrcPifO49ni2SFYIkZgTb9d4gzvJaM8ugEb-jqHlc7uqHz5glwe4PfoN838w >> zMozr43veZSNHRTm9IMfON-w7xvbVufJpa_MzhuaTlKf9pvVcRIuxfhG4pMeVq7K6phhHpsKPfG5 >> h4BRgDSimCE8mToI35IWS3Ty8j01-6bibKH_kB-t35aIdkv7JIC-YZ1sDoguSdyk8h1xbM2d9i_U >> LFQYVC0oCHESgEGdqzGO3ntgwmV4khjgaQkcp2Bk-TuC7Nwrl57JI=w654-h871-no?authuser= >> 0 >> >> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HvltevPwIvyJF0qiAJR6wCAkI4lHfFGL2Gos5uoT4a >> qEJNFBAwJ3m6XX8E6k0m515EYgZJMaCwFGXiGiTCkxDeT396EjsbkukK3_XYqNDjfU8o3Pbtdq8z >> vm_q7MXShANXVFUL2wjXEbAhvBug1h42tZnxpDaxTCeNIHjqF2bgs6J_S3wCjmx538E4AuHCHxrr >> CqIr8yvL7AGlZXCWe8u05YNNZbIrUCYHbTtxh15hc0SwfRPzQ2U2v-pPxHs7-rx5mPpwxovbp24a >> CdwLBf5RRvvEZWZgyDGKG8xdF-al4kQdZMgxrVVXFMse3ee_J-QaYgALUxckGeWp2QxM4wolrd8Q >> Y1PqaMaTgbws5WSrOeBBBZrhmrUeL4TzZAlCA4-FqtRpoPIA339y9JRixB8Q6LlUeNsWzlqGqkvC >> JSCHlh_hpCXgwemhOtF4B1CLvNGs-PSZjTsnj_KOeSgeINz5Sc6TCrHmnxCcIY6D42aKMJRHZ9I9 >> 7Z02FLsKwN6IKLxjifZvrkmEX4L8qXLbd8cuF0uf1PMjwC9WNC1_QpOmMiJOrBloG9pdrHRGvmfR >> RPQE7c6_HxVklEpIbxqkLmQVkKF-oM8VYS3A11tvslxiZUcvQcEhuEYhPLoqTD8PDikYhxKyVLhq >> S0DC-bIVBDDLeqiegQelHFjhptKwgs-0Q5mMrxvE6rdsd6-ipEf5Q=w654-h871-no?authuser= >> 0 From nw.johnson at ieee.org Tue Jun 16 11:12:47 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:12:47 -0400 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board In-Reply-To: <5EE8EC8D.4050809@charter.net> References: <01d701d643ed$9922e780$cb68b680$@vanpeborgh.eu> <2c79bbee-8245-ce59-a67b-94dc360259f0@sydex.com> <5EE8EC8D.4050809@charter.net> Message-ID: <510192c2-8e27-d1b4-69fd-914e6f7cd34f@ieee.org> I get the same, no matter how carefully I cut and paste either link. Sure looks like a standard NO-ENTRY road sign to me! Nigel ve3id On 16/06/2020 12:00, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Chuck, > ??? I get the same thing! > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > On 6/16/2020 10:56 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Sorry, Peter, but when pasting your links into my browser, I get a white >> square with a circle with a hyphen in the center.? Nothing more. >> >> Perhaps it's a permission issue? >> >> --Chuck >> >> >> >> On 6/16/20 7:51 AM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk wrote: >>> Guys, >>> >>> I have acquired this board and have trouble assigning it to a >>> particular >>> computer manufacturer and type: >>> >>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/byRPH3wCR2aqxGX9U8BZfFTT_XtF7QCKSyVXoNmGIk >>> >>> UheiJ5BWqxYaCWdEshppLGYkOqUD7fl9XNeVzO_tDRKVOtbC3Js7T-pOvNUHs9MY9A36fc7dU6ro >>> >>> 1i7hx9Uhcfc6ukEGIdC5Ac6aTQhEFFoeWBxiI6Z24hZdvq1r6vRb4o-Lj778Wbo15hwxu0JxMuxE >>> >>> tcopNv0FG0_g6nUv0Eofalqu4TmgPfUWVCd4Y4LdA0pnhDRMYF5c2ASzS00TsyukCVrUyr298tjo >>> >>> vztVzUGEPHNL1beVCriuQIBLITaEMX3N8EBDuxpfav0vHFuyy9yfAgUI4uJB9qT6aFGEk2KplIVt >>> >>> yNWZf9phTdj-jLtqns9WvdA9Ur2klrk4uPzMyWg6SKTKRlpMrvbJuMnqZodzxPFPvWCG5--kVVBD >>> >>> KRAXW8xOTOPyxXx0xrcPifO49ni2SFYIkZgTb9d4gzvJaM8ugEb-jqHlc7uqHz5glwe4PfoN838w >>> >>> zMozr43veZSNHRTm9IMfON-w7xvbVufJpa_MzhuaTlKf9pvVcRIuxfhG4pMeVq7K6phhHpsKPfG5 >>> >>> h4BRgDSimCE8mToI35IWS3Ty8j01-6bibKH_kB-t35aIdkv7JIC-YZ1sDoguSdyk8h1xbM2d9i_U >>> >>> LFQYVC0oCHESgEGdqzGO3ntgwmV4khjgaQkcp2Bk-TuC7Nwrl57JI=w654-h871-no?authuser= >>> >>> 0 >>> >>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HvltevPwIvyJF0qiAJR6wCAkI4lHfFGL2Gos5uoT4a >>> >>> qEJNFBAwJ3m6XX8E6k0m515EYgZJMaCwFGXiGiTCkxDeT396EjsbkukK3_XYqNDjfU8o3Pbtdq8z >>> >>> vm_q7MXShANXVFUL2wjXEbAhvBug1h42tZnxpDaxTCeNIHjqF2bgs6J_S3wCjmx538E4AuHCHxrr >>> >>> CqIr8yvL7AGlZXCWe8u05YNNZbIrUCYHbTtxh15hc0SwfRPzQ2U2v-pPxHs7-rx5mPpwxovbp24a >>> >>> CdwLBf5RRvvEZWZgyDGKG8xdF-al4kQdZMgxrVVXFMse3ee_J-QaYgALUxckGeWp2QxM4wolrd8Q >>> >>> Y1PqaMaTgbws5WSrOeBBBZrhmrUeL4TzZAlCA4-FqtRpoPIA339y9JRixB8Q6LlUeNsWzlqGqkvC >>> >>> JSCHlh_hpCXgwemhOtF4B1CLvNGs-PSZjTsnj_KOeSgeINz5Sc6TCrHmnxCcIY6D42aKMJRHZ9I9 >>> >>> 7Z02FLsKwN6IKLxjifZvrkmEX4L8qXLbd8cuF0uf1PMjwC9WNC1_QpOmMiJOrBloG9pdrHRGvmfR >>> >>> RPQE7c6_HxVklEpIbxqkLmQVkKF-oM8VYS3A11tvslxiZUcvQcEhuEYhPLoqTD8PDikYhxKyVLhq >>> >>> S0DC-bIVBDDLeqiegQelHFjhptKwgs-0Q5mMrxvE6rdsd6-ipEf5Q=w654-h871-no?authuser= >>> >>> 0 > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 16 13:00:42 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:00:42 -0700 Subject: OT: Vacuum tubes/Valves/VEDs today Message-ID: A good article in ED today: https://www.electronicdesign.com/communiqu/article/21133402/tubes-luckily-theyre-still-around --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 14:08:52 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:08:52 +0200 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board In-Reply-To: <01d701d643ed$9922e780$cb68b680$@vanpeborgh.eu> References: <01d701d643ed$9922e780$cb68b680$@vanpeborgh.eu> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 16:51, Peter Van Peborgh via cctech wrote: > > Guys, > > I have acquired this board and have trouble assigning it to a particular > computer manufacturer and type: > > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/byRPH3wCR2aqxGX9U8BZfFTT_XtF7QCKSyVXoNmGIk > UheiJ5BWqxYaCWdEshppLGYkOqUD7fl9XNeVzO_tDRKVOtbC3Js7T-pOvNUHs9MY9A36fc7dU6ro > 1i7hx9Uhcfc6ukEGIdC5Ac6aTQhEFFoeWBxiI6Z24hZdvq1r6vRb4o-Lj778Wbo15hwxu0JxMuxE > tcopNv0FG0_g6nUv0Eofalqu4TmgPfUWVCd4Y4LdA0pnhDRMYF5c2ASzS00TsyukCVrUyr298tjo > vztVzUGEPHNL1beVCriuQIBLITaEMX3N8EBDuxpfav0vHFuyy9yfAgUI4uJB9qT6aFGEk2KplIVt > yNWZf9phTdj-jLtqns9WvdA9Ur2klrk4uPzMyWg6SKTKRlpMrvbJuMnqZodzxPFPvWCG5--kVVBD > KRAXW8xOTOPyxXx0xrcPifO49ni2SFYIkZgTb9d4gzvJaM8ugEb-jqHlc7uqHz5glwe4PfoN838w > zMozr43veZSNHRTm9IMfON-w7xvbVufJpa_MzhuaTlKf9pvVcRIuxfhG4pMeVq7K6phhHpsKPfG5 > h4BRgDSimCE8mToI35IWS3Ty8j01-6bibKH_kB-t35aIdkv7JIC-YZ1sDoguSdyk8h1xbM2d9i_U > LFQYVC0oCHESgEGdqzGO3ntgwmV4khjgaQkcp2Bk-TuC7Nwrl57JI=w654-h871-no?authuser= > 0 Um. Gosh. Yeah, you are going to need to use a URL shortener. Bit.ly is pretty good as it lets you create your own memorable links. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue Jun 16 14:19:18 2020 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:19:18 +0200 Subject: Aquarius (was Re: Apple 1) In-Reply-To: References: <202006150436.05F4aUpL40435846@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <155ee8e9d5f1ff19c344e91cb1252d89073b1c23.camel@agj.net> m?n 2020-06-15 klockan 09:25 -0400 skrev Ethan O'Toole via cctalk: > > > > That is wild! That would have been an interesting product. > > > The justification for the Cray was to experiment with what could be > > done > > if you had a Macintosh with the power of a Cray. It had a pretty > > fancy > > frame buffer attached to it and some pretty sophisticated anti- > > aliased > > rendering was produced. > > Frame buffer attached to Cray? Or Mac with a fancy framebuffer and > offloading to the Cray? Pretty wild. > That was one of the use cases of Sun's Display Postscript where another program on another host was able to get equal access to a window on an work-station. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 16 14:29:25 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board In-Reply-To: References: <01d701d643ed$9922e780$cb68b680$@vanpeborgh.eu> Message-ID: >> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/byRPH3wCR2aqxGX9U8BZfFTT_XtF7QCKSyVXoNmGIk >> UheiJ5BWqxYaCWdEshppLGYkOqUD7fl9XNeVzO_tDRKVOtbC3Js7T-pOvNUHs9MY9A36fc7dU6ro >> 1i7hx9Uhcfc6ukEGIdC5Ac6aTQhEFFoeWBxiI6Z24hZdvq1r6vRb4o-Lj778Wbo15hwxu0JxMuxE >> tcopNv0FG0_g6nUv0Eofalqu4TmgPfUWVCd4Y4LdA0pnhDRMYF5c2ASzS00TsyukCVrUyr298tjo >> vztVzUGEPHNL1beVCriuQIBLITaEMX3N8EBDuxpfav0vHFuyy9yfAgUI4uJB9qT6aFGEk2KplIVt >> yNWZf9phTdj-jLtqns9WvdA9Ur2klrk4uPzMyWg6SKTKRlpMrvbJuMnqZodzxPFPvWCG5--kVVBD >> KRAXW8xOTOPyxXx0xrcPifO49ni2SFYIkZgTb9d4gzvJaM8ugEb-jqHlc7uqHz5glwe4PfoN838w >> zMozr43veZSNHRTm9IMfON-w7xvbVufJpa_MzhuaTlKf9pvVcRIuxfhG4pMeVq7K6phhHpsKPfG5 >> h4BRgDSimCE8mToI35IWS3Ty8j01-6bibKH_kB-t35aIdkv7JIC-YZ1sDoguSdyk8h1xbM2d9i_U >> LFQYVC0oCHESgEGdqzGO3ntgwmV4khjgaQkcp2Bk-TuC7Nwrl57JI=w654-h871-no?authuser= >> 0 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Um. Gosh. > Yeah, you are going to need to use a URL shortener. Bit.ly is pretty > good as it lets you create your own memorable links. Q: Is that link adequate to unambiguously identify any specific location within any sub-atomic particle in the universe? (such as far more detail than is required for the PHYSICAL LOCATION of the start of the file??) OTOH, when will we have a compression for which that is adequate for the content of the file? Are there any browsers with a small enough buffer for the URL (and poor enough input checking) for which pasting the above could be a buffer overflow exploit? Or, is the above link an offset within the digits of PI to a location that matches the content of the file? From ethan at 757.org Tue Jun 16 14:30:32 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:30:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aquarius (was Re: Apple 1) In-Reply-To: <155ee8e9d5f1ff19c344e91cb1252d89073b1c23.camel@agj.net> References: <202006150436.05F4aUpL40435846@floodgap.com> <155ee8e9d5f1ff19c344e91cb1252d89073b1c23.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: > That was one of the use cases of Sun's Display Postscript where another > program on another host was able to get equal access to a window on an > work-station. Sun or NeXT? - Ethan From turing at shaw.ca Tue Jun 16 15:08:12 2020 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:08:12 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board In-Reply-To: References: <01d701d643ed$9922e780$cb68b680$@vanpeborgh.eu> Message-ID: <342852545.27135869.1592338092912.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Given that the encoding of the address is likely radix-64, and there are 717 characters from the '.com/' to '?authuser=0', the resulting address 'space' would be 10^1295... and the number of particles in the observable universe is estimated to be 10^80 to 10^90, depending on whether photons are counted... So the address given would need to be for a meta-universe of meta-universes... of universes. Which would make the server that needed such an address either multidimensional or incomprehensibly big. I suspect that response time on such a server would be challenging, given the constraint of the speed of light. In fact, attempting to load a web-page from the server would involved waiting until the heat-death of the meta-universe of meta-universes... of universes. From: "cctalk" To: "Liam Proven" , "cctalk" Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 12:29:25 PM Subject: Re: Ancient transistor ?computer board >> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/byRPH3wCR2aqxGX9U8BZfFTT_XtF7QCKSyVXoNmGIk >> UheiJ5BWqxYaCWdEshppLGYkOqUD7fl9XNeVzO_tDRKVOtbC3Js7T-pOvNUHs9MY9A36fc7dU6ro >> 1i7hx9Uhcfc6ukEGIdC5Ac6aTQhEFFoeWBxiI6Z24hZdvq1r6vRb4o-Lj778Wbo15hwxu0JxMuxE >> tcopNv0FG0_g6nUv0Eofalqu4TmgPfUWVCd4Y4LdA0pnhDRMYF5c2ASzS00TsyukCVrUyr298tjo >> vztVzUGEPHNL1beVCriuQIBLITaEMX3N8EBDuxpfav0vHFuyy9yfAgUI4uJB9qT6aFGEk2KplIVt >> yNWZf9phTdj-jLtqns9WvdA9Ur2klrk4uPzMyWg6SKTKRlpMrvbJuMnqZodzxPFPvWCG5--kVVBD >> KRAXW8xOTOPyxXx0xrcPifO49ni2SFYIkZgTb9d4gzvJaM8ugEb-jqHlc7uqHz5glwe4PfoN838w >> zMozr43veZSNHRTm9IMfON-w7xvbVufJpa_MzhuaTlKf9pvVcRIuxfhG4pMeVq7K6phhHpsKPfG5 >> h4BRgDSimCE8mToI35IWS3Ty8j01-6bibKH_kB-t35aIdkv7JIC-YZ1sDoguSdyk8h1xbM2d9i_U >> LFQYVC0oCHESgEGdqzGO3ntgwmV4khjgaQkcp2Bk-TuC7Nwrl57JI=w654-h871-no?authuser= >> 0 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Um. Gosh. > Yeah, you are going to need to use a URL shortener. Bit.ly is pretty > good as it lets you create your own memorable links. Q: Is that link adequate to unambiguously identify any specific location within any sub-atomic particle in the universe? (such as far more detail than is required for the PHYSICAL LOCATION of the start of the file??) OTOH, when will we have a compression for which that is adequate for the content of the file? Are there any browsers with a small enough buffer for the URL (and poor enough input checking) for which pasting the above could be a buffer overflow exploit? Or, is the above link an offset within the digits of PI to a location that matches the content of the file? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 16 15:14:54 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:14:54 -0700 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board In-Reply-To: References: <01d701d643ed$9922e780$cb68b680$@vanpeborgh.eu> Message-ID: <658c2cd0-abf5-192c-a752-1701b5ba67ff@sydex.com> On 6/16/20 12:29 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Q: Is that link adequate to unambiguously identify any specific location > within any sub-atomic particle in the universe?? (such as far more > detail than is required for the PHYSICAL LOCATION of the start of the > file??) Well, let's do some spitballing here. There are estimated to be around 10^80 atoms in the known, observable universe, which is about 34 8-bit bytes worth. So we could have a unique number for each atom in the universe in only 34 bytes. In that light, the URL *does* seem to be a bit excessive. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 15:15:52 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:15:52 -0400 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:46 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > With Jay retiring, what are the hosting plans for these mailing lists? > > Sorry, I missed the news...vcfed.org has a mailing list, maybe someone there can suggest whether the services they receive are any good. Eric Klein or Cory Cohen or Mike Brutman are involved with the list, I think. Maybe Jeff Brace. I am not involved there anymore so I lost touch. Bill From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 16 16:22:19 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 22:22:19 +0100 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via > cctalk > Sent: 16 June 2020 21:16 > To: Al Kossow ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:46 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > > With Jay retiring, what are the hosting plans for these mailing lists? > > > > > Sorry, I missed the news...vcfed.org has a mailing list, maybe someone there > can suggest whether the services they receive are any good. Eric Klein or Cory > Cohen or Mike Brutman are involved with the list, I think. > Maybe Jeff Brace. I am not involved there anymore so I lost touch. > Bill I missed this too, and I don't seem to be able to find anything in the archive. Where was this posted? Regards Rob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 16:29:41 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:29:41 -0400 Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <82cd8bf4-2a6a-16f2-474f-70a0d843afac@sydex.com> References: <5EE649F7.4040800@pico-systems.com> <2063F0AD-CCA8-4732-8246-D08FC3CFE8E7@btinternet.com> <5EE6C4A7.90401@pico-systems.com> <82cd8bf4-2a6a-16f2-474f-70a0d843afac@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 1:33 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/14/20 8:41 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > ... Do remember that Intel's claim to > > fame wasn't just micro processor. They were one of the first to do > > MOS RAMs for big machines. They were more into solid state memory > > systems than uPs, until after the 8080. > > Intel Memory Systems Division was largely responsible for saving Intel's > bacon in the early 1970s... > > However, selling DRAM assemblies for various minis (e.g. DG and DEC) as > well as S/370 add-on memory amounted to a large portion of their early > sales. I happen to have the guts for a 2MB IN-1670 memory system for the PDP-11/70 - backplane and cards, but no box and no PSU. https://books.google.com/books?id=fB-Te8d5hO8C&pg=PT1&lpg=PT1&dq=in-1670+intel+memory&source=bl&ots=RkDfYzcrxx&sig=ACfU3U2WL1-0-sXnyP46t2CKekXWfv5hxg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwigrvyoo4fqAhXYTDABHQRsDrMQ6AEwAXoECAwQAQ#v=onepage&q=in-1670%20intel%20memory&f=false It's a stack of 16 memory cards covered in 4116 DRAMs and a couple of control/management boards that cable over to the 11/70 the same way a DEC MK11 box does. > Have a look at section 7 here: > > https://johncargin.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/intel-catalog-1973.pdf Excellent reference. A couple years too old for my DEC memor system, but I happen to have a tray of MSC-4 parts and some early SRAMs, DRAMs, and EPROMs documented there. -ethan From bruns at 2mbit.com Tue Jun 16 16:32:37 2020 From: bruns at 2mbit.com (Brielle) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:32:37 -0600 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0b4f5598-d409-3c60-aa73-75e4d5909e41@2mbit.com> On 6/16/2020 6:21 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > With Jay retiring, what are the hosting plans for these mailing lists? > I've got the ability to host mailman lists or a site if the need is there - just ask. I believe some of you know me already from various other places. -- Brielle Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org From doug at doughq.com Tue Jun 16 17:39:48 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 08:39:48 +1000 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: We could consider moving to Google groups hosting. In the wake of the removal of Yahoo many of my groups moved there and it works really well. Doug On Wed, 17 Jun. 2020, 7:22 am Rob Jarratt via cctalk, wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bill Degnan > via > > cctalk > > Sent: 16 June 2020 21:16 > > To: Al Kossow ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off- > > Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech > > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:46 PM Al Kossow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > > > With Jay retiring, what are the hosting plans for these mailing lists? > > > > > > > > Sorry, I missed the news...vcfed.org has a mailing list, maybe someone > there > > can suggest whether the services they receive are any good. Eric Klein > or Cory > > Cohen or Mike Brutman are involved with the list, I think. > > Maybe Jeff Brace. I am not involved there anymore so I lost touch. > > Bill > > I missed this too, and I don't seem to be able to find anything in the > archive. Where was this posted? > > Regards > > Rob > > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jun 16 17:45:47 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:45:47 -0700 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features compared to what yahoo offered. Zane > On Jun 16, 2020, at 3:39 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > We could consider moving to Google groups hosting. > > In the wake of the removal of Yahoo many of my groups moved there and it > works really well. > > Doug From rich.cini at verizon.net Tue Jun 16 17:47:59 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 22:47:59 +0000 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com>, Message-ID: The S100 list I?m on is there and I agree it works well. Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Doug Jackson via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 6:39:48 PM To: rob at jarratt.me.uk ; Rob Jarratt ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech We could consider moving to Google groups hosting. In the wake of the removal of Yahoo many of my groups moved there and it works really well. Doug On Wed, 17 Jun. 2020, 7:22 am Rob Jarratt via cctalk, wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bill Degnan > via > > cctalk > > Sent: 16 June 2020 21:16 > > To: Al Kossow ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off- > > Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech > > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:46 PM Al Kossow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > > > With Jay retiring, what are the hosting plans for these mailing lists? > > > > > > > > Sorry, I missed the news...vcfed.org has a mailing list, maybe someone > there > > can suggest whether the services they receive are any good. Eric Klein > or Cory > > Cohen or Mike Brutman are involved with the list, I think. > > Maybe Jeff Brace. I am not involved there anymore so I lost touch. > > Bill > > I missed this too, and I don't seem to be able to find anything in the > archive. Where was this posted? > > Regards > > Rob > > > From doug at doughq.com Tue Jun 16 18:41:10 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 09:41:10 +1000 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board In-Reply-To: <658c2cd0-abf5-192c-a752-1701b5ba67ff@sydex.com> References: <01d701d643ed$9922e780$cb68b680$@vanpeborgh.eu> <658c2cd0-abf5-192c-a752-1701b5ba67ff@sydex.com> Message-ID: Ahhhhh... I suspect it's an example of modern web apps being excessive. That URL was likely only active during the session that the user was active within. When the session went away so did the URL. It's longer than the information content of the universe to stop it from being accessed by somebody else intentionally during a session by brute force. I love the modern internet. It's apollo obfuscated. On Wed, 17 Jun. 2020, 6:15 am Chuck Guzis via cctalk, wrote: > On 6/16/20 12:29 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > > Q: Is that link adequate to unambiguously identify any specific location > > within any sub-atomic particle in the universe? (such as far more > > detail than is required for the PHYSICAL LOCATION of the start of the > > file??) > > Well, let's do some spitballing here. > > There are estimated to be around 10^80 atoms in the known, observable > universe, which is about 34 8-bit bytes worth. So we could have a > unique number for each atom in the universe in only 34 bytes. > > In that light, the URL *does* seem to be a bit excessive. > > --Chuck > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Jun 16 18:43:32 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:43:32 -0400 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <0b4f5598-d409-3c60-aa73-75e4d5909e41@2mbit.com> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <0b4f5598-d409-3c60-aa73-75e4d5909e41@2mbit.com> Message-ID: I'd prefer not seeing it on google groups. Although we all know Google will be around forever, the recent shafting by Yahoo makes me think a member with a good server would be a lot more reliable. I could probably gen a mailman instance here on iguana, I know I have mailman on Alembic but that's a NextStation and is a bit old.... C On 6/16/2020 5:32 PM, Brielle via cctalk wrote: > On 6/16/2020 6:21 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> With Jay retiring, what are the hosting plans for these mailing lists? >> > > I've got the ability to host mailman lists or a site if the need is > there - just ask. > > I believe some of you know me already from various other places. > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jun 16 18:49:48 2020 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:49:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <0b4f5598-d409-3c60-aa73-75e4d5909e41@2mbit.com> Message-ID: Dave McGuire hosts mailing lists on neurotica.com. On Tue, 16 Jun 2020, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I'd prefer not seeing it on google groups. Although we all know Google will > be around forever, the recent shafting by Yahoo makes me think a member with > a good server would be a lot more reliable. > > I could probably gen a mailman instance here on iguana, I know I have mailman > on Alembic but that's a NextStation and is a bit old.... > > C > > On 6/16/2020 5:32 PM, Brielle via cctalk wrote: >> On 6/16/2020 6:21 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> With Jay retiring, what are the hosting plans for these mailing lists? >>> >> >> I've got the ability to host mailman lists or a site if the need is there >> - just ask. >> >> I believe some of you know me already from various other places. >> > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 16 19:13:04 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:13:04 -0700 Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: References: <5EE649F7.4040800@pico-systems.com> <2063F0AD-CCA8-4732-8246-D08FC3CFE8E7@btinternet.com> <5EE6C4A7.90401@pico-systems.com> <82cd8bf4-2a6a-16f2-474f-70a0d843afac@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4d7a10f3-87b9-a99a-831a-93f62e027804@sydex.com> On 6/16/20 2:29 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It's a stack of 16 memory cards covered in 4116 DRAMs and a couple of > control/management boards that cable over to the 11/70 the same way a > DEC MK11 box does. Oh yeah--I remember when 4116/2116 DRAMs were still new and in short supply. The local Intel sales rep dropped off a number of 2108s ("half-good" 2116s) as a stopgap. There was a suffix on each one that specified whether the bank (there were two "banks" in the 2116), should be high or low. I still have a few of those. Interestingly enough, some weren't bad enough that prevented me from using them as 16Kb parts. In any case, they were a BIG improvement over the 22-pin 0.400" 2107 commodity parts. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jun 16 19:13:30 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > We could consider moving to Google groups hosting. > > In the wake of the removal of Yahoo many of my groups moved there and it > works really well. > Considering that Jay hosts vastly more than this list, I would be astonished to find it going anywhere - at least without much advance warning. I suspect Al is just stirring up shit because he's bored. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Jun 16 19:15:36 2020 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 02:15:36 +0200 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> <29f5c23a-a717-6982-d103-9c220e0fcae6@gmail.com> <20200611175128.GA25492@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20200617001536.GA1160@tau1.ceti.pl> On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 03:02:57PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 19:51, Tomasz Rola via cctalk > wrote: > > > > From time to time I behave like a normal human and, for example, zip > > channels on my cable tv. Few years ago, while stopping at their "see > > what we have on offer to you, prospective viewer" kind of channel, it > > cracked open and I have seen the Workbench screen. Version 1.3 or 2.0, > > if I am correct. Could be 2.0, so most probably Amiga 1200. Looks like I mixed few things up. The Workbench was the ugly one, so I would keep 2.0, but the Amiga for it would have to be A600 then. Not that it really matters much. [...] > The shop had full-length windows at street level. This is not much use > for a supermarket: the backs of shelves are not very interesting to > look at, it's hard to get in there to replace marketing posters etc., > leaving it open wastes potential shelf space... > > So they filled it with big plasma flatscreens (quite new tech at the > time). They could display animated advertising, special offers etc. I would say that was cool. [...] > I was very surprised to see what looked like a _new_ Amiga deployment > at that time -- end of the 1990s. > > But I guess it was good at its job, and probably required very little > maintenance... I guess so, too. Connecting Amiga to plasma was probably the least hassle of all alternatives. PC would need something special (either card or converter?), and a hard drive, and a big box, and separate keyboard and reboot every four(ty) days - Amiga 500 could be just "stuffed under the rug". And after loading a "demo" from a floppy, there was no moving parts involved. It could just sit there and display flying images for years. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From nw.johnson at ieee.org Tue Jun 16 19:17:43 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:17:43 -0400 Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <4d7a10f3-87b9-a99a-831a-93f62e027804@sydex.com> References: <5EE649F7.4040800@pico-systems.com> <2063F0AD-CCA8-4732-8246-D08FC3CFE8E7@btinternet.com> <5EE6C4A7.90401@pico-systems.com> <82cd8bf4-2a6a-16f2-474f-70a0d843afac@sydex.com> <4d7a10f3-87b9-a99a-831a-93f62e027804@sydex.com> Message-ID: I remember that shortage of memory chips. People in my office were all blaming it the Ayatollah Khomeni! On 16/06/2020 20:13, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/16/20 2:29 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> It's a stack of 16 memory cards covered in 4116 DRAMs and a couple of >> control/management boards that cable over to the 11/70 the same way a >> DEC MK11 box does. > Oh yeah--I remember when 4116/2116 DRAMs were still new and in short > supply. The local Intel sales rep dropped off a number of 2108s > ("half-good" 2116s) as a stopgap. There was a suffix on each one that > specified whether the bank (there were two "banks" in the 2116), should > be high or low. > > I still have a few of those. Interestingly enough, some weren't bad > enough that prevented me from using them as 16Kb parts. > > In any case, they were a BIG improvement over the 22-pin 0.400" 2107 > commodity parts. > > --Chuck -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jun 16 19:57:26 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:57:26 -0500 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> On 06/16/2020 05:45 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features compared to what yahoo offered. > > Yes, several other groups I read and contribute to have moved to groups.io, and they are working quite well and reliably. Some options require $10 a month to be free from ads. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 16 20:22:21 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 18:22:21 -0700 Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: References: <5EE649F7.4040800@pico-systems.com> <2063F0AD-CCA8-4732-8246-D08FC3CFE8E7@btinternet.com> <5EE6C4A7.90401@pico-systems.com> <82cd8bf4-2a6a-16f2-474f-70a0d843afac@sydex.com> <4d7a10f3-87b9-a99a-831a-93f62e027804@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2a4811a2-087b-c6dd-6d6b-d3df6ac865fd@sydex.com> On 6/16/20 5:17 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > I remember that shortage of memory chips. People in my office were all > blaming it the Ayatollah Khomeni! The running battle between "dumping" and supply. By 1980, Japan owned about half the world's DRAM market and US domestic producers were leaving the business. It was an interesting time in Silicon Valley; companies lost DRAM inventory due to pilferage and outright burglary. One outfit who'd carefully laid in a big stock of AT&T-manufactured DRAMs found their parts crib empty of the things. Some started storing them in vaults and there was at least one incident of a supply truck hijacking. One of the other problems was that Japan was scaling up its production; there wasn't enough domestic demand to justify expansion, so dumping was an obvious answer. And the Japanese DRAMs were *good*. I still have some NEC 416 DRAM here that we tested with a refresh rate of 2 seconds--that's seconds, not milliseconds. After all, who's going to argue with someone selling Porsche 911s right of the boat for $1500 each? But we'd seen what happened to the US TV manufacturing market in the 70s--it simply couldn't compete with offshore production. Gone were the Zeniths, the Packard-Bells and the Curtis-Mathes in a few years. Things really came to a head when Korea entered the business. At that time (1985 or so), I think the only US manufacturers of DRAM were Intel and Micron. I think the US went a bit overboard on the anti-dumping duties. Hyundai set up a big plant for DRAM locally in the 1990s to get around anti-dumping penalties. The huge complex (1.2M square feet) has sat empty since 2008. It's been passed around by various companies (e.g. Broadcom) as a white elephant. The current owner paid $6.3 million for it in an auction. Heaven knows what will become of it; no one seems to know. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jun 16 23:13:20 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:13:20 -0700 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <0b4f5598-d409-3c60-aa73-75e4d5909e41@2mbit.com> Message-ID: <45c2010d-3d67-1b56-0fec-a7973d0fd155@jwsss.com> On 6/16/2020 4:43 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Although we all know Google will be around forever they destroyed dejanews despite promising to keep it. A few long threads I discussed things with Tanenbaum and a guy named Torvalds, gone. Also some responses from a guy named DMR. Google.? uh no, not a fan.? Remember google plus?? Google hangouts is gone this year.? I hold a grudge.? Could go on.? If they get bored with groups, wonder if they'll do a better job preserving it. thanks Jim From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 23:22:00 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 00:22:00 -0400 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <45c2010d-3d67-1b56-0fec-a7973d0fd155@jwsss.com> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <0b4f5598-d409-3c60-aa73-75e4d5909e41@2mbit.com> <45c2010d-3d67-1b56-0fec-a7973d0fd155@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 12:13 AM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 6/16/2020 4:43 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Although we all know Google will be around forever > > they destroyed dejanews despite promising to keep it. > > A few long threads I discussed things with Tanenbaum and a guy named > Torvalds, gone. > > Also some responses from a guy named DMR. > > Google. uh no, not a fan. Remember google plus? Google hangouts is > gone this year. I hold a grudge. Could go on. If they get bored with > groups, wonder if they'll do a better job preserving it. > > thanks > Jim > I hope this group can continue to maintain the same mailer, so that there is an archive continuity. I know from my own network that hosting services can be a thankless job, but hand over the content to a "free" resource is essentially giving away that which makes this a special, I dependent group. Bill Degnan Vintagecomputer.net > From alan at alanlee.org Tue Jun 16 23:52:06 2020 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 00:52:06 -0400 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <0b4f5598-d409-3c60-aa73-75e4d5909e41@2mbit.com> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <0b4f5598-d409-3c60-aa73-75e4d5909e41@2mbit.com> Message-ID: Same. Already host a few lists. Can spin up another mailman list in about 5 minutes. On 2020-06-16 17:32, Brielle via cctalk wrote: > On 6/16/2020 6:21 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> With Jay retiring, what are the hosting plans for these mailing lists? >> > > I've got the ability to host mailman lists or a site if the need is > there - just ask. > > I believe some of you know me already from various other places. From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jun 17 00:23:46 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 05:23:46 +0000 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> (Jon Elson via cctalk's message of "Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:57:26 -0500") References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <7wftaul0yl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Jon Elson wrote: > Yes, several other groups I read and contribute to have moved to > groups.io, and they are working quite well and reliably. Some options > require $10 a month to be free from ads. That's a red flag. From 821 at 128.ca Wed Jun 17 00:25:46 2020 From: 821 at 128.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 07:25:46 +0200 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <7wftaul0yl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <7wftaul0yl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: Just keep the list here? It is simple and works.. cheers On 17 June 2020 at 07:24:16, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk (cctalk at classiccmp.org) wrote: Jon Elson wrote: > Yes, several other groups I read and contribute to have moved to > groups.io, and they are working quite well and reliably. Some options > require $10 a month to be free from ads. That's a red flag. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 17 00:57:47 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 22:57:47 -0700 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <7wftaul0yl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <577b3010-e3fd-a5fe-2077-2cbdd49cc74b@bitsavers.org> On 6/16/20 10:25 PM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: > Just keep the list here? sure. and when ezwind disappears? From evanlinwood at hotmail.com Wed Jun 17 01:15:42 2020 From: evanlinwood at hotmail.com (Evan Linwood) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 06:15:42 +0000 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech Message-ID: > With Jay retiring, what are the hosting plans for these mailing lists? Hi Al, I didn't know about Jay retiring or what that means for the list - i.e. does it need to find new infrastructure, new administraton/management, or both? I'm a relatively background person in the vintage computing scheme of things but I do have an involvement in the data centre / hosting area & so if no better options were to come forward would be very happy to pitch in somehow. From 821 at 128.ca Wed Jun 17 01:18:35 2020 From: 821 at 128.ca (821 at 128.ca) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 08:18:35 +0200 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <577b3010-e3fd-a5fe-2077-2cbdd49cc74b@bitsavers.org> References: <577b3010-e3fd-a5fe-2077-2cbdd49cc74b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Some of us are happy to fire up a vm and host a mailing list. Just saying. But u do have a point. K. > On 17 Jun 2020, at 07:57, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 6/16/20 10:25 PM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: >> Just keep the list here? > > sure. and when ezwind disappears? From 821 at 128.ca Wed Jun 17 01:19:50 2020 From: 821 at 128.ca (821 at 128.ca) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 08:19:50 +0200 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4861DAA1-E31F-4318-879D-75739F2C224B@128.ca> I run a server farm of over 300 machines. Dedicating one to a mailing list at no cost is easy. The admin work well that?s life ha. K. > On 17 Jun 2020, at 08:15, Evan Linwood via cctalk wrote: > > ? >> >> With Jay retiring, what are the hosting plans for these mailing lists? > > Hi Al, > > I didn't know about Jay retiring or what that means for the list - i.e. does it need to find new infrastructure, new administraton/management, or both? I'm a relatively background person in the vintage computing scheme of things but I do have an involvement in the data centre / hosting area & so if no better options were to come forward would be very happy to pitch in somehow. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jun 17 01:27:10 2020 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 08:27:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, Doug Jackson wrote: > We could consider moving to Google groups hosting. No... no no no no no. Never. Either become a (real) NNTP group or stay as a mailman list. Christian From evanlinwood at hotmail.com Wed Jun 17 01:31:43 2020 From: evanlinwood at hotmail.com (Evan Linwood) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 06:31:43 +0000 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <4861DAA1-E31F-4318-879D-75739F2C224B@128.ca> References: , <4861DAA1-E31F-4318-879D-75739F2C224B@128.ca> Message-ID: I run a server farm of over 300 machines. Dedicating one to a mailing list at no cost is easy. The admin work well that?s life ha. K. Ah - now that's the spirit ! ;) Yes the infrastructure is the smaller part of the problem - tinkering with the software if it breaks is the thing. I'm up to my eyeballs already so I'll gladly stand aside :) From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Jun 17 01:55:45 2020 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 06:55:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <45c2010d-3d67-1b56-0fec-a7973d0fd155@jwsss.com> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <0b4f5598-d409-3c60-aa73-75e4d5909e41@2mbit.com> <45c2010d-3d67-1b56-0fec-a7973d0fd155@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <1997564375.3396230.1592376945614@mail.yahoo.com> >On 6/16/2020 4:43 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Although we all know Google will be around forever > > >they destroyed dejanews despite promising to keep it. > >A few long threads I discussed things with Tanenbaum and a guy named >Torvalds, gone. > >Also some responses from a guy named DMR. > >Google.? uh no, not a fan.? Remember google plus?? Google hangouts is >gone this year.? I hold a grudge.? Could go on.? If they get bored with >groups, wonder if they'll do a better job preserving it. Google doesn't have any obligations to keep their services up and running in any ways, since they are for FREE. They offer these as long as they contribute to generate income by providing information from their users. And why should a multi-national company of that size stick to promises they made in the past? Unfortunately, ethics and principles don't play much of a role when it comes to making money for companies of these sizes. It's about revenue in the first place. I think that we should avoid Google as a host, but that's just my humble opinion. Unfortunately, I don't have alternatives to come up with except for another mailing list, since I never tried groups.io. Cheers, Pierre From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jun 17 02:25:49 2020 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 00:25:49 -0700 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4612D29F-0A71-4583-9C42-5ABF4A3C4350@reanimators.org> On Jun 16, 2020, at 23:27, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, Doug Jackson wrote: >> We could consider moving to Google groups hosting. > > No... no no no no no. Never. > Either become a (real) NNTP group or stay as a mailman list. Oh good, here comes the discussion of which protocol stack this bikeshed should run. (You can get INN to work with uucp!) -Frank McConnell From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Jun 17 03:29:08 2020 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:29:08 +0200 Subject: TU58 dump tool on Linux? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200617082908.2cmgglyd5ado65od@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2020-06-10 21:06:40 +0200, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Is there anyone that has already built a tool to dump TU58-tapes on a Linux > machine? I have the drive of course. I had a look at the TU58 documentation, it doesn't seem too hard to wire it up as a BUSE or NBD block device, though it'll be slow by today's standards. If I ever get my hands on a drive and a few tapes (at least one with known content!), I'll give it a try. MfG, JBG -- From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 03:29:38 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 09:29:38 +0100 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jon Elson via > cctalk > Sent: 17 June 2020 01:57 > To: Zane Healy ; General at ezwind.net; > Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech > > On 06/16/2020 05:45 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features compared to > what yahoo offered. > > > > > Yes, several other groups I read and contribute to have moved to groups.io, > and they are working quite well and reliably. Some options require $10 a > month to be free from ads. There are NO ADVERTISMENTS on groups.io. The subscriptions support the free groups. You data is not sold or monetized unless you make the message history public Some options require a subscription which is $20/month Others require a huge subscription which is $200/month > > Jon Dave G4UGM From kspt.tor at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 03:50:07 2020 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:50:07 +0200 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > > There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features compared to Please please, no groups of any kinds. They're all horrible to use. A genuine mailing list like this is infinitively easier to keep track of and read at leisure. Can't stand groups.io. Despise google groups (always overlaying everything with an insistent suggestion to translate.. hopeless to navigate if you've been away for a while.. Yahoo, don't mention yahoo. They're all pure junk. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Jun 17 04:30:25 2020 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:30:25 +0200 Subject: TU58 dump tool on Linux? In-Reply-To: <20200617082908.2cmgglyd5ado65od@lug-owl.de> References: <20200617082908.2cmgglyd5ado65od@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20200617093025.dirfgrtpi6kmads3@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2020-06-17 10:29:08 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 2020-06-10 21:06:40 +0200, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > Is there anyone that has already built a tool to dump TU58-tapes on a Linux > > machine? I have the drive of course. > > I had a look at the TU58 documentation, it doesn't seem too hard to > wire it up as a BUSE or NBD block device, though it'll be slow by > today's standards. If I ever get my hands on a drive and a few tapes > (at least one with known content!), I'll give it a try. As the tapes are so small, it would probably even make sense to just cache the whole tape upon starting the block device simulation and just write to the tape as needed. Now, as I'm curious about it, I need such a drive. :) MfG, JBG -- From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 04:58:23 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:58:23 +0100 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tor Arntsen via > cctalk > Sent: 17 June 2020 09:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech > > > > > There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features > > > > compared to > > Please please, no groups of any kinds. They're all horrible to use. A genuine > mailing list like this is infinitively easier to keep track of and read at leisure. > Can't stand groups.io. Despise google groups (always overlaying everything > with an insistent suggestion to translate.. hopeless to navigate if you've been > away for a while.. > Yahoo, don't mention yahoo. They're all pure junk. Well Yahoo is pretty much a pure mailing list now. They removed all the web stuff. The only downside is they also removed moderation. I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure mailing list? Dave From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Jun 17 05:53:51 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:53:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <121521444.1493035.1592391231027@mail.yahoo.com> Groups IO? ?is? nice? as? it? allows? image files too.A picture is? worth? a thousand? words!?Ed#?In a message dated 6/17/2020 2:58:30 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tor Arntsen via > cctalk > Sent: 17 June 2020 09:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech > > > > > There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features > > > > compared to > > Please please, no groups of any kinds. They're all horrible to use. A genuine > mailing list like this is infinitively easier to keep track of and read at leisure. > Can't stand groups.io. Despise google groups (always overlaying everything > with an insistent suggestion to translate.. hopeless to navigate if you've been > away for a while.. > Yahoo, don't mention yahoo. They're all pure junk. Well Yahoo is pretty much a pure mailing list now. They removed all the web stuff. The only downside is they also removed moderation. I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure mailing list? Dave? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 06:10:51 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:10:51 +0100 Subject: IBM 3174 screen controllers UK Message-ID: <2c2c01d64497$f6ac0f30$e4042d90$@gmail.com> Folks, I think I now have too many 3174 controllers. I have 1 x Rack Mount - Token Ring Card + MFM Disk Emulator 1 x Large Tabletop - Token Card 1 x Large Tabletop - Ethernet Card <=> I am keeping this. 1 x Small Tabletop - Token Ring card but won't run TCPIP code. If anyone wants one of these I am happy to ship at cost but they are 220/240v and heavy so shipping to USA may be a problem. I have a selection of floppy drives that can be fitted but I recommend using a Gotek with FlashFloppy firmware. I also have the following spares:- 1. working PSU for rack mount 2. non-working PSU for the rackmount systems but I am sure it can be fixed 3. spare motherboard for rackmount 4. spare token ring card (if I can find it) 5. (I may have memory modules but can't remember where I put them 6. I think I have a 3299 multiplexor some where Feel free to e-mail off-list with questions. Dave Wade G4UGM & EA7KAE From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 17 07:48:20 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 05:48:20 -0700 Subject: TU58 dump tool on Linux? In-Reply-To: <20200617093025.dirfgrtpi6kmads3@lug-owl.de> References: <20200617082908.2cmgglyd5ado65od@lug-owl.de> <20200617093025.dirfgrtpi6kmads3@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On 6/17/20 2:30 AM, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 2020-06-17 10:29:08 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote: >> On Wed, 2020-06-10 21:06:40 +0200, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >>> Is there anyone that has already built a tool to dump TU58-tapes on a Linux >>> machine? I have the drive of course. active discussion and coding going on here http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?75527-TU58-dump-tool/page4 From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 17 07:55:24 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 05:55:24 -0700 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> > I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure mailing list? Like all of the webby time-wasters, they don't have easy to mirror zipped archives, because they want to to spend time hovering around clicking on their sites. http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on attachments. Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 08:23:36 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 09:23:36 -0400 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 9:11 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure > mailing list? > > Like all of the webby time-wasters, they don't have easy to mirror zipped > archives, because > they want to to spend time hovering around clicking on their sites. > > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ > > > The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on > attachments. > > Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well. > > > I can't imagine Google does not scrape these lists for data mining/sell to 3rd party advertisers and companies who would benefit from it. Having an independent list means the authors of the content maintain some degree of ownership. Sure the list is public on the web but at least it's left in its original form, not parsed and run through a database for sale. I don't have the time to find out for sure but if I did I bet one would see a change in the ads that pop up in social media based on the contents of the user group hosted on Google. That said, if Google paid the author a little for each post that got a +1 for accuracy/usefulness like sourceforge does, that might be nice. It's all about having a little say in who uses the output of my brain. I work by the hour in my day job, I don't give away my knowledge in skills, that little I have. Bill From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 17 08:45:42 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:45:42 +0100 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <02a301d644ad$986bf050$c943d0f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via > cctalk > Sent: 17 June 2020 13:55 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech > > > > > I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure mailing > list? > > Like all of the webby time-wasters, they don't have easy to mirror zipped > archives, because they want to to spend time hovering around clicking on their > sites. > > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ > > > The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on attachments. > > Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well. I would agree with both of those too. Rob From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jun 17 09:15:10 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:15:10 +0000 Subject: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <2a4811a2-087b-c6dd-6d6b-d3df6ac865fd@sydex.com> References: <5EE649F7.4040800@pico-systems.com> <2063F0AD-CCA8-4732-8246-D08FC3CFE8E7@btinternet.com> <5EE6C4A7.90401@pico-systems.com> <82cd8bf4-2a6a-16f2-474f-70a0d843afac@sydex.com> <4d7a10f3-87b9-a99a-831a-93f62e027804@sydex.com> , <2a4811a2-087b-c6dd-6d6b-d3df6ac865fd@sydex.com> Message-ID: It was also clear at the time for Intel that the Japanese 4116s had 10 times better ppm failure rates then the US made parts and they were cheaper. If it wasn't for EPROMs, Intel might have folded then and 8080s were just taking off. I suspect if Motorola had gotten their act together, it might be a different place today. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 6:22 PM To: Nigel Johnson via cctalk Subject: Re: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 On 6/16/20 5:17 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > I remember that shortage of memory chips. People in my office were all > blaming it the Ayatollah Khomeni! The running battle between "dumping" and supply. By 1980, Japan owned about half the world's DRAM market and US domestic producers were leaving the business. It was an interesting time in Silicon Valley; companies lost DRAM inventory due to pilferage and outright burglary. One outfit who'd carefully laid in a big stock of AT&T-manufactured DRAMs found their parts crib empty of the things. Some started storing them in vaults and there was at least one incident of a supply truck hijacking. One of the other problems was that Japan was scaling up its production; there wasn't enough domestic demand to justify expansion, so dumping was an obvious answer. And the Japanese DRAMs were *good*. I still have some NEC 416 DRAM here that we tested with a refresh rate of 2 seconds--that's seconds, not milliseconds. After all, who's going to argue with someone selling Porsche 911s right of the boat for $1500 each? But we'd seen what happened to the US TV manufacturing market in the 70s--it simply couldn't compete with offshore production. Gone were the Zeniths, the Packard-Bells and the Curtis-Mathes in a few years. Things really came to a head when Korea entered the business. At that time (1985 or so), I think the only US manufacturers of DRAM were Intel and Micron. I think the US went a bit overboard on the anti-dumping duties. Hyundai set up a big plant for DRAM locally in the 1990s to get around anti-dumping penalties. The huge complex (1.2M square feet) has sat empty since 2008. It's been passed around by various companies (e.g. Broadcom) as a white elephant. The current owner paid $6.3 million for it in an auction. Heaven knows what will become of it; no one seems to know. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jun 17 09:20:10 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 09:20:10 -0500 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5EEA269A.5030504@pico-systems.com> On 06/17/2020 03:50 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote: >>>> There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features compared to > Please please, no groups of any kinds. They're all horrible to use. A > genuine mailing list like this is infinitively easier to keep track of > and read at leisure. Can't stand groups.io. Despise google groups > (always overlaying everything with an insistent suggestion to > translate.. hopeless to navigate if you've been away for a while.. > Yahoo, don't mention yahoo. They're all pure junk. > Well, we have moved the Atlas-Craftsman lathe group from Yahoo to groups.io last year, and almost everybody uses it as a mail reflector. I have hardly ever signed on to the web portal of the thing, except maybe when I initially joined. Jon From stueberahoo at yahoo.de Wed Jun 17 09:39:48 2020 From: stueberahoo at yahoo.de (Anke =?utf-8?Q?St=C3=BCber?=) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:39:48 +0200 Subject: Duplicate messages In-Reply-To: <5f58db33-eb8f-1839-33c7-de017ab868df@ljw.me.uk> References: <37b17843-9ea5-fcc0-f432-9ab090367bbe@julf.com> <5f58db33-eb8f-1839-33c7-de017ab868df@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <20200617143948.GJ25913@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> Hi, On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 11:40:34AM +0200, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > I think you might be subscribed to both cctalk and cctech. I have never subscribed to the cctech list myself, yet I receive mail via both lists. I have requested a password reminder mail on the cctech member options page and tried to unsubscribe, but never got mail from mailman. When I request my password for the cctalk list I get a mail, and when I log in and list my other subscriptions the only one that shows up is cctalk. How do I unsubscribe from cctech? Best, Anke From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 17 09:46:53 2020 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 09:46:53 -0500 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <5EEA269A.5030504@pico-systems.com> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <5EEA269A.5030504@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20200617145151.2FCCB274A4@mx1.ezwind.net> I'm most puzzled by the eager hosting volunteers who'd volunteer even before they have a full understanding of the job. Wouldn't you want to know how much time it might take you to administer the list, how much bandwidth it eats, storage, format of the archives, etc.? - John From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Wed Jun 17 10:11:19 2020 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 08:11:19 -0700 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <1592406679.30626.23.camel@moondog> On Tue, 2020-06-16 at 11:04 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > Good question. They have an IBM logo and "Made in USA", along with the > > part number (5965 or 5963) and a bunch of numbers that might give a hint > > as to manufacturer. Any suggestions on how to decode them? > > What are the numbers? > > Details, man! Sure! I'd attach a picture, but.... On the top of the tubes are numbers printed in yellow. A couple typical ones are C392 and C152. On the side, the large IBM logo is flanked by groups of numbers, an example: 62-39 64-17 IBM 317261 188-5 MADE IN U.S.A. This is one of the more legible ones. The two pairs of numbers on the first line at the left appear to vary, the 188-5 and 317261 seem to be constant; but it's hard to be certain. The obvious part number 5965 has some other markings that are overprinted by the IBM logo and numbers. It looks like it could be: 5965 A U.S.A .. .. The pattern of dots is hard to make out because of "IBM" on top of it. The structure inside is a "long-plate" type, with three horizontal ribs. I haven't had a chance to compare the structure to any of the many old dual-triode, medium-mu tubes in my assortment. There might be some clues. It wouldn't surprise me if these were a fairly standard design with some changes to the cathode to withstand being held in cutoff for long periods of time. From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jun 17 10:15:37 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:15:37 -0400 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <20200617145151.2FCCB274A4@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <5EEA269A.5030504@pico-systems.com> <20200617145151.2FCCB274A4@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <463a368b-c466-1069-b1b5-17a46ae8ca92@e-bbes.com> On 2020-06-17 10:46, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > I'm most puzzled by the eager hosting volunteers who'd volunteer even before > they have a full understanding of the job. Wouldn't you want to know > how much time it might take you to administer the list, how much > bandwidth it eats, storage, format of the archives, etc.? Please don't spoil this discussion with details and facts ;-) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 17 10:27:21 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 08:27:21 -0700 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <20200617145151.2FCCB274A4@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <5EEA269A.5030504@pico-systems.com> <20200617145151.2FCCB274A4@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 6/17/20 7:46 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > I'm most puzzled by the eager hosting volunteers who'd volunteer even before > they have a full understanding of the job. The list is also something that has existed and will likely exist for decades, which is another reason not to trust an entity who gives you something for free on the web From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 10:27:57 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:27:57 -0400 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: <1592406679.30626.23.camel@moondog> References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> <1592406679.30626.23.camel@moondog> Message-ID: They are indeed GEs! 188 is the clue. -- Will On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 11:14 AM Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, 2020-06-16 at 11:04 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Good question. They have an IBM logo and "Made in USA", along with the > > > part number (5965 or 5963) and a bunch of numbers that might give a hint > > > as to manufacturer. Any suggestions on how to decode them? > > > > What are the numbers? > > > > Details, man! > > Sure! I'd attach a picture, but.... > > On the top of the tubes are numbers printed in yellow. A couple typical > ones are C392 and C152. > > On the side, the large IBM logo is flanked by groups of numbers, an > example: > > 62-39 64-17 IBM 317261 > 188-5 MADE IN U.S.A. > > This is one of the more legible ones. The two pairs of numbers on the > first line at the left appear to vary, the 188-5 and 317261 seem to be > constant; but it's hard to be certain. > > The obvious part number 5965 has some other markings that are > overprinted by the IBM logo and numbers. It looks like it could be: > > 5965 > A > U.S.A > .. > .. > > The pattern of dots is hard to make out because of "IBM" on top of it. > > The structure inside is a "long-plate" type, with three horizontal ribs. > I haven't had a chance to compare the structure to any of the many old > dual-triode, medium-mu tubes in my assortment. There might be some > clues. It wouldn't surprise me if these were a fairly standard design > with some changes to the cathode to withstand being held in cutoff for > long periods of time. > From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Jun 17 11:05:08 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 09:05:08 -0700 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <5EEA269A.5030504@pico-systems.com> <20200617145151.2FCCB274A4@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <87F0D8FC-D419-45B3-B398-1B022DF6696F@avanthar.com> On Jun 17, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/17/20 7:46 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >> I'm most puzzled by the eager hosting volunteers who'd volunteer even before >> they have a full understanding of the job. > > The list is also something that has existed and will likely exist for decades, > which is another reason not to trust an entity who gives you something for > free on the web Early 1997, which brings up a question. Is there a complete archive online anywhere? The one archive I was using recently to look for some of my posts didn?t go back to the ?97 to 2000 period I needed. Zane From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Jun 17 12:04:40 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:04:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech References: <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680@mail.yahoo.com> These 2 have my vote as well.... I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore! > The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on attachments. > > Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well. On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via > cctalk > Sent: 17 June 2020 13:55 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech > > > > > I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure mailing > list? > > Like all of the webby time-wasters, they don't have easy to mirror zipped > archives, because they want to to spend time hovering around clicking on their > sites. > > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ > > > The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on attachments. > > Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well. I would agree with both of those too. Rob From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Jun 17 12:04:42 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:04:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech References: <1826736807.180833.1592413482251.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1826736807.180833.1592413482251@mail.yahoo.com> These 2 have my vote as well.... I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore! > The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on attachments. > > Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well. On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via > cctalk > Sent: 17 June 2020 13:55 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech > > > > > I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure mailing > list? > > Like all of the webby time-wasters, they don't have easy to mirror zipped > archives, because they want to to spend time hovering around clicking on their > sites. > > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ > > > The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on attachments. > > Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well. I would agree with both of those too. Rob From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jun 17 12:14:11 2020 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:14:11 +0000 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <20200617171410.GC24154@lonesome.com> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 07:58:14AM -0700, Guy N. via cctech wrote: > the part number (5965 or 5963) Ah, good ol' 5965s. These were a higher-spec version of ... some really common tube which I no longer remember. The Bendix G-15 was wholly based on them. I probably have one or two around the house since I kept one-of-each of the plug-in cards when my high school scrapped it. (It would have been too heavy even for *me* to haul around all these years.) I still have the technical manual, complete with the FE's hand-written annotations. mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jun 17 12:14:11 2020 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:14:11 +0000 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <20200617171410.GC24154@lonesome.com> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 07:58:14AM -0700, Guy N. via cctech wrote: > the part number (5965 or 5963) Ah, good ol' 5965s. These were a higher-spec version of ... some really common tube which I no longer remember. The Bendix G-15 was wholly based on them. I probably have one or two around the house since I kept one-of-each of the plug-in cards when my high school scrapped it. (It would have been too heavy even for *me* to haul around all these years.) I still have the technical manual, complete with the FE's hand-written annotations. mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jun 17 12:15:16 2020 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:15:16 +0000 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: <20200617171410.GC24154@lonesome.com> References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> <20200617171410.GC24154@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20200617171516.GD24154@lonesome.com> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 05:14:11PM +0000, Mark Linimon via cctech wrote: > These were a higher-spec version of ... some really common tube which I > no longer remember. And which was mentioned in the original post -- oops! mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jun 17 12:15:16 2020 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:15:16 +0000 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: <20200617171410.GC24154@lonesome.com> References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> <20200617171410.GC24154@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20200617171516.GD24154@lonesome.com> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 05:14:11PM +0000, Mark Linimon via cctech wrote: > These were a higher-spec version of ... some really common tube which I > no longer remember. And which was mentioned in the original post -- oops! mcl From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 12:24:56 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:24:56 -0400 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: <20200617171410.GC24154@lonesome.com> References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> <20200617171410.GC24154@lonesome.com> Message-ID: > Ah, good ol' 5965s. > > These were a higher-spec version of ... some really common tube which I > no longer remember. The Bendix G-15 was wholly based on them. 5965 is a computer rated 12AV7 with better balanced cutoff characteristics, but generally worse for noise. About 15 percent of the tubes in a G15 are 6197s, which are computer rated 6CL6s. -- Will From rtomek at ceti.pl Wed Jun 17 12:28:22 2020 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:28:22 +0200 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <02a301d644ad$986bf050$c943d0f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <02a301d644ad$986bf050$c943d0f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20200617172822.GB10317@tau1.ceti.pl> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 02:45:42PM +0100, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via > > cctalk > > Sent: 17 June 2020 13:55 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech > > > > > > > > > I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a > > pure mailing list? > > > > Like all of the webby time-wasters, they don't have easy to mirror > > zipped archives, because they want to to spend time hovering > > around clicking on their sites. > > > > > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ > > > > > > The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on > > attachments. > > > > Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well. > > I would agree with both of those too. > > Rob I concur. And I also would like to mention a simple, easily navigable web interface to list archives, which works well in text based browser. Just like the current one. Having such interface is a huge plus for me. It allows both access to single threads, message by message, and getting full mbox for more sophisticated processing (in theory at least, since I have no such needs yet). "Modern" interfaces, while touting their bestness, are about removing as much power from end user as possible, IMHO. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 17 12:44:20 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <20200617172822.GB10317@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <02a301d644ad$986bf050$c943d0f0$@ntlworld.com> <20200617172822.GB10317@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: > The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on > attachments. > > Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well. If we remove the restriction on attachments, can we at least set a size limit? I dislike multi-MB attachments. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 17 12:48:19 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, ED SHARPE @ AOHell.com via cctalk wrote: > These 2 have my vote as well.... > I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore! > >> The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on attachments. >> Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well. I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP. In this group, I doubt that I am the only one. Can we restrict to TEXT emails? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan at 757.org Wed Jun 17 12:53:12 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:53:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > These 2 have my vote as well.... > I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore! /me raises hand! Alpine .... It's super fast to delete things. I run it under screen on a host I have co-lo'ed at a tier 1 datacenter. 25 years now? - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Jun 17 12:53:34 2020 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:53:34 -0700 Subject: Attachments (was: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech) In-Reply-To: References: <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <02a301d644ad$986bf050$c943d0f0$@ntlworld.com> <20200617172822.GB10317@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <3e96dacd-6ac7-4d34-36d2-d6f7a00dc792@mainecoon.com> On 6/17/20 10:44 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > If we remove the restriction on attachments, can we at least set a size > limit??? I dislike multi-MB attachments. Or do as some other lists do and simply scrub the attachment and substitute a URL to where the attachment can be found. Otherwise I suppose I number in the "If it needs to move, groups.io seems the least horrible place to go" camp. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 17 13:18:45 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Attachments (was: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech) In-Reply-To: <3e96dacd-6ac7-4d34-36d2-d6f7a00dc792@mainecoon.com> References: <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <02a301d644ad$986bf050$c943d0f0$@ntlworld.com> <20200617172822.GB10317@tau1.ceti.pl> <3e96dacd-6ac7-4d34-36d2-d6f7a00dc792@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: >> If we remove the restriction on attachments, can we at least set a size >> limit??? I dislike multi-MB attachments. On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: > Or do as some other lists do and simply scrub the attachment and > substitute a URL to where the attachment can be found. Otherwise I > suppose I number in the "If it needs to move, groups.io seems the least > horrible place to go" camp. "least horrible" seems like a good way to phrase it! On lists where the participants are not computer literate, groups.io is/was the logical place to go when the Yahoos made them homeless. They weren't even aware of the meaning or the Jonathan Swift origin when they named their company, and it didn't even occur to them to do a search to find out! There are people HERE who could probably do a better job, or at least one more specifically customized to what WE want. But, we need to be very careful to select a host with adequate resources, AND stability, not just "I'll have plenty of time to manage it all summer long." We are looking for DECADES, not months or years. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 17 13:55:44 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP. > Barbarian! At least upgrade to Alpine. (That's what I use.) :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Jun 17 14:24:40 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:24:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011@mail.yahoo.com> Use modern email program that sees expanded char. Sets and graphics.... it is a brand new world !??? I love old hardware to look at but if communicating? I like? the ability to see graphical? things...? and I think tell majority of people like? images of things......?? Ed# On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, ED SHARPE @ AOHell.com via cctalk wrote: > These 2 have my vote as well.... > I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore! > >> The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on attachments. >> Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well. I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP. In this group, I doubt that I am the only one. Can we restrict to TEXT emails? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred? ? ??? ??? cisin at xenosoft.com From rtomek at ceti.pl Wed Jun 17 14:25:43 2020 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:25:43 +0200 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <20200617172822.GB10317@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <02a301d644ad$986bf050$c943d0f0$@ntlworld.com> <20200617172822.GB10317@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20200617192543.GC10317@tau1.ceti.pl> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 07:28:22PM +0200, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: [...] > > I concur. And I also would like to mention a simple, easily navigable > web interface to list archives, which works well in text based > browser. Just like the current one. Having such interface is a huge > plus for me. It allows both access to single threads, message by > message, and getting full mbox for more sophisticated processing (in > theory at least, since I have no such needs yet). As an afterthought, no such mailing list as cctalk/tech would still be much worse than anything which can put content into my mailbox, be it gog, io or nntp via some client saving it to disk in a format parsable via textual MUA (I used to use elm, then pine, now I use mutt, not perfect but very useful). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 14:25:55 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:25:55 +0200 Subject: Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu Message-ID: https://archive.org/details/FarewellEtaoinShrdlu 28min documentary on the last ever edition of the NY Times to be printed using hot metal -- before they switched to what are now a quite choice assortment of late-'70s minicomputers. I think I spotted a PDP, a Data General and some IBM device, but I am no expert in this era. As a veteran reader of Fredric Brown, especially "the Enchanted Linotype", I have been using ETAOIN SHRDLU to win at Hangman for many years... but I'd never seen one working before. It all still seems like magic to me. I've worked in the magazine industry so I should know more about this stuff, but I never worked at the repro end of things... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From rtomek at ceti.pl Wed Jun 17 14:39:41 2020 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:39:41 +0200 Subject: MUA again [was: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech] In-Reply-To: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011@mail.yahoo.com> References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <705058024.1710010.1592421880011@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200617193941.GD10317@tau1.ceti.pl> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 07:24:40PM +0000, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Use modern email program that sees expanded char. Sets and > graphics.... it is a brand new world !??? I love old hardware to > look at but if communicating? I like? the ability to see graphical? > things...? and I think tell majority of people like? images of > things......?? Ed# In case of graphical MUA with graphical messages in them, I am of opinion they open doors to various things and the majority happily sees nothing. Besides, once the html or any other non-pure text format takes over, everybody will be receiving messages sized in megabytes if not worse, whose human-readable content would be only few lines of text. Just like modern web. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 14:43:13 2020 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:43:13 -0700 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on attachments. > Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well. Amen on that. The first one in particular. As simple as that and you?ve gotten yourself a very functional yet efficient system. Marc From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 14:58:45 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 15:58:45 -0400 Subject: Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 3:26 PM Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > https://archive.org/details/FarewellEtaoinShrdlu > > 28min documentary on the last ever edition of the NY Times to be > printed using hot metal -- before they switched to what are now a > quite choice assortment of late-'70s minicomputers. I think I spotted > a PDP, a Data General and some IBM device, but I am no expert in this > era. > > As a veteran reader of Fredric Brown, especially "the Enchanted > Linotype", I have been using ETAOIN SHRDLU to win at Hangman for many > years... but I'd never seen one working before. It all still seems > like magic to me. I've worked in the magazine industry so I should > know more about this stuff, but I never worked at the repro end of > things... > > > Liam, I rescued a Linotype and gave it to Bob Roswell for his museum in Hunt Valley, MD USA...should you ever be in the Washington/Baltimore area. Syssrc.com is the URL and the museum is housed within their consulting and training facility. Bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 17 15:11:39 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Modern" computer science (Was: MUA again [was: Future of cctalk/cctech] In-Reply-To: <20200617193941.GD10317@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <705058024.1710010.1592421880011@mail.yahoo.com> <20200617193941.GD10317@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: >> Use modern email program that sees expanded char. Sets and >> graphics.... it is a brand new world !??? I love old hardware to >> look at but if communicating? I like? the ability to see graphical? >> things...? and I think tell majority of people like? images of >> things......?? Ed# On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > In case of graphical MUA with graphical messages in them, I am of > opinion they open doors to various things and the majority happily > sees nothing. > > Besides, once the html or any other non-pure text format takes over, > everybody will be receiving messages sized in megabytes if not worse, > whose human-readable content would be only few lines of text. Just > like modern web. Those few lines of text might only be human-readable after OCR processing. College administrators: At the college, we had one administrator who insisted that compliance with the state mandates for community college curricula of "computer literacy" and "information competency" were already met. He wrote a two line memo announcing a room change for a meeting. He did it in a "feature rich" word processor, then he printed it on a color printer, then he scanned that piece of paper, and then he attached that scanned graphic image to an email with SUBJECT: "For your information", and message text of "See the attachment". He vetoed my proposal to create a beginning course in Information Science, on the grounds that one of the local universities taught something that he considered to be the same, as a GRADUATE course, and "therefore, it would be ILLEGAL for the community college to teach it." One of our COBOL teachers got a gig at one of the local universities, and COPIED OUR COBOL class (the authors of the textbook, Jack Olson and Wil Price, were in our faculty) to be taught in the graduate school there. Our administrator said that it would be ILLEGAL for us to continue teaching it! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 15:12:40 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 22:12:40 +0200 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board In-Reply-To: References: <01d701d643ed$9922e780$cb68b680$@vanpeborgh.eu> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 21:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Q: Is that link adequate to unambiguously identify any specific location > within any sub-atomic particle in the universe? (such as far more > detail than is required for the PHYSICAL LOCATION of the start of the file??) It's simple. All we have to do is use Godelization. http://kasmana.people.cofc.edu/MATHFICT/mfview.php?callnumber=mf1033 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/451203.Starburst As you may remember, I used to live in Brno -- the city where Kurt G?del was born. Sadly they do not commemorate him. I think he's too obscure. Gregor Mendel, yes; my doctor's office was on Mendelova Namesti, Mendel Square. I went to the Mendel musem. Jana?ek gets a theatre. All the others are only famous if you're Czech. But poor G?del, one of the 20th century's greatest mathematicians -- nothing. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 15:15:37 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 22:15:37 +0200 Subject: Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 at 21:59, Bill Degnan wrote: > > Liam, > I rescued a Linotype and gave it to Bob Roswell for his museum in Hunt Valley, MD USA...should you ever be in the Washington/Baltimore area. Syssrc.com is the URL and the museum is housed within their consulting and training facility. Actually, I have a good friend in Baltimore whom I've never met F2G. We hope to visit each other one of these days. I will try. Thanks! BTW, I found the Fredric Brown short story: https://www.you-books.com/book/F-Brown/Etaoin-Shrdlu -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 15:22:19 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:22:19 +0100 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2fee01d644e5$00aa5210$01fef630$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via > cctalk > Sent: 17 June 2020 13:55 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech > > > I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure > mailing list? > > Like all of the webby time-wasters, they don't have easy to mirror zipped > archives, because they want to to spend time hovering around clicking on > their sites. > As there are no adverts on their site, why would they want you clicking around on the site? That uses resource and costs them money. It was primarily envisaged as a mail service. The web side was added because some folks wanted it. As a group owner I can download zipped archives of all content. The ability for members to download the message archive as a zipped file is configurable by the list owner. > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ > > The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on > attachments. > They take up a lot of space. > Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well. > I think thats pretty irrelevant ..... Dave From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 15:24:36 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:24:36 -0400 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <2fee01d644e5$00aa5210$01fef630$@gmail.com> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <2fee01d644e5$00aa5210$01fef630$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > They take up a lot of space. Well, there is some circa 2005 thinking. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 17 15:26:42 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:26:42 -0700 Subject: Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1febe61b-2585-8d80-b581-c5ba0c20f378@sydex.com> On 6/17/20 12:25 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > https://archive.org/details/FarewellEtaoinShrdlu > > 28min documentary on the last ever edition of the NY Times to be > printed using hot metal -- before they switched to what are now a > quite choice assortment of late-'70s minicomputers. I think I spotted > a PDP, a Data General and some IBM device, but I am no expert in this > era. > When I was in college, I went on a weekend trip with a friend to see where he worked during the summer. It was a print-shop, complete with both letterpress and offset--and a Linotype ("pot" heated with natural gas). The local advertising circular was still set with hot type and I witnessed the operation of that contraption. Noisy and wonderful. See the Twilight Zone episode "Printer's Devil" for another sample. I was told that most newspaper pressmen were alcoholics, as it blunted the effect of the then-toxic inks used in printing. Anent ETAOIN: Early on in the formation of the CDC spinoff, ETA Systems, I asked Neil Lincoln what "ETA" stood for. He related the story of his son and ETAOIN SHRDLU. Back then, the name of the supercomputer was referred to as the GF-10; later changed to the ETA-10. (GF standing for GigaFLOP). --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 17 15:27:59 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:27:59 -0400 Subject: Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jun 17, 2020, at 3:25 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > https://archive.org/details/FarewellEtaoinShrdlu > > 28min documentary on the last ever edition of the NY Times to be > printed using hot metal -- before they switched to what are now a > quite choice assortment of late-'70s minicomputers. I think I spotted > a PDP, a Data General and some IBM device, but I am no expert in this > era. > > As a veteran reader of Fredric Brown, especially "the Enchanted > Linotype", I have been using ETAOIN SHRDLU to win at Hangman for many > years... but I'd never seen one working before. It all still seems > like magic to me. They should be fairly easy to find in printing musea. There is a pretty detailed description on Wikipedia, with a number of diagrams and photos from a Linotype handbook published by the company in the 1940s. It also has links to a pair of training movies that show, section by section, how one of these machines works. Actually, it shows the Intertype, but that's just a Linotype clone made by a lesser-known competitor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linotype_machine#External_links Look for "Typesetting: Linotype vocational instruction film". paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 17 15:31:31 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <2fee01d644e5$00aa5210$01fef630$@gmail.com> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <2fee01d644e5$00aa5210$01fef630$@gmail.com> Message-ID: >>> I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure >> mailing list? >> The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on >> attachments. On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > They take up a lot of space. FREE mail lists on groups.io have a size limit. I don't think that it is a very strenuous limit. BUT, larger volume, such as ATTACHMENTS, bumps it into having to pay a subscription fee. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 17 15:35:36 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <2fee01d644e5$00aa5210$01fef630$@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> They take up a lot of space. On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Well, there is some circa 2005 thinking. 2005 was only 15 years ago. Some of us have pre-Y2K thinking. Have we finally gotten rid of discussion of a "ten year rule"/"twenty year rule"? Is there ANYTHING classic post millenium? Although I am using a larger drive, I would prefer that we not have any messages that wouldn't be possible to fit on an 8" SSSD disk. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 17 15:39:13 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:39:13 -0600 Subject: Attachments In-Reply-To: <3e96dacd-6ac7-4d34-36d2-d6f7a00dc792@mainecoon.com> References: <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <02a301d644ad$986bf050$c943d0f0$@ntlworld.com> <20200617172822.GB10317@tau1.ceti.pl> <3e96dacd-6ac7-4d34-36d2-d6f7a00dc792@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <93f55c4a-466a-d1c3-f325-03e24eaaa57a@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/17/2020 11:53 AM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: > > > On 6/17/20 10:44 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> If we remove the restriction on attachments, can we at least set a size >> limit??? I dislike multi-MB attachments. > > Or do as some other lists do and simply scrub the attachment and > substitute a URL to where the attachment can be found. Otherwise I > suppose I number in the "If it needs to move, groups.io seems the least > horrible place to go" camp. > The question is what attachments are needed to send for this list? Ben. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 17 15:41:39 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: from geneb via cctalk at "Jun 17, 20 11:55:44 am" Message-ID: <202006172041.05HKfd2X40960246@floodgap.com> > > I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP. > > Barbarian! At least upgrade to Alpine. (That's what I use.) :D Philistines, all of you. I use a hacked version of Elm. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. -- Napoleon -------- From db at db.net Wed Jun 17 15:44:26 2020 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:44:26 -0400 Subject: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <202006172041.05HKfd2X40960246@floodgap.com> References: <202006172041.05HKfd2X40960246@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20200617204426.GA73748@night.db.net> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 01:41:39PM -0700, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > > > I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP. > > > > Barbarian! At least upgrade to Alpine. (That's what I use.) :D > > Philistines, all of you. I use a hacked version of Elm. mutt! > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. -- Napoleon -------- -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From db at db.net Wed Jun 17 15:49:52 2020 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:49:52 -0400 Subject: MUA again [was: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech] In-Reply-To: <20200617193941.GD10317@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <705058024.1710010.1592421880011@mail.yahoo.com> <20200617193941.GD10317@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20200617204952.GC73748@night.db.net> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 09:39:41PM +0200, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 07:24:40PM +0000, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > > > Use modern email program that sees expanded char. Sets and ... > > Besides, once the html or any other non-pure text format takes over, > everybody will be receiving messages sized in megabytes if not worse, > whose human-readable content would be only few lines of text. Just > like modern web. Happened with Meetup FWIW they have no plain text option and it's annoying. -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From drb at msu.edu Wed Jun 17 15:54:02 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:54:02 -0400 Subject: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:44:26 -0400.) <20200617204426.GA73748@night.db.net> References: <20200617204426.GA73748@night.db.net> <202006172041.05HKfd2X40960246@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20200617205402.5999023ED7F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > > > I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP. > > > Barbarian! At least upgrade to Alpine. (That's what I use.) :D > > Philistines, all of you. I use a hacked version of Elm. > mutt! `less`, out of system spool. De From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 17 15:59:50 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:59:50 -0600 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech - text encoding In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <2fee01d644e5$00aa5210$01fef630$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/17/2020 2:35 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Although I am using a larger drive, I would prefer that we not have any > messages that wouldn't be possible to fit on an 8" SSSD disk. > Does that include the TAG LINE? I am happy just to have ASCII text, and trimmed messages. Does this mailing list have people using EBCDIC for example? What would be useful is a way to transfer things like paper tape or punch card deck. Ben. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 16:03:32 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 23:03:32 +0200 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: <20200617001536.GA1160@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> <29f5c23a-a717-6982-d103-9c220e0fcae6@gmail.com> <20200611175128.GA25492@tau1.ceti.pl> <20200617001536.GA1160@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 at 02:15, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > > I would say that was cool. Me too! :-) > I guess so, too. Connecting Amiga to plasma was probably the least > hassle of all alternatives. PC would need something special (either > card or converter?), and a hard drive, and a big box, and separate > keyboard and reboot every four(ty) days - Amiga 500 could be just > "stuffed under the rug". And after loading a "demo" from a floppy, > there was no moving parts involved. It could just sit there and > display flying images for years. Exactly. Maybe once a week, turn it off, put in the new floppy from HQ, turn it back on, or something like that. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 16:06:07 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 23:06:07 +0200 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 at 19:04, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore! Several of my colleagues at a Prominent German Linux Distributor use Mutt/Neomutt. I don't, I am on Thunderbird and rather like it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 17 16:06:38 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech - text encoding In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <2fee01d644e5$00aa5210$01fef630$@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> Although I am using a larger drive, I would prefer that we not have any >> messages that wouldn't be possible to fit on an 8" SSSD disk. On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, ben via cctalk wrote: > Does that include the TAG LINE? > I am happy just to have ASCII text, and trimmed messages. > Does this mailing list have people using EBCDIC for example? > What would be useful is a way to transfer things like paper tape > or punch card deck. What I would like to see, is an available FILES web location, where people could put their "please ID this" pictures, and other worthwhile files. But, links, NOT content, sent out in the email! If there is enough cheap space, maybe even stuff like the GWBASIC stuff. Q: is the original Microsoft BASIC paper tape released from copyright, yet? Once the plain text rule is lifted, we are likely to also no longer get ANY trimming of messages, and every post will include everything that ever came before. All the way back to THIS. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Jun 17 16:11:49 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:11:49 -0700 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <7wftaul0yl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <7wftaul0yl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <8D9BDE19-1455-492C-BFC1-3851981756B0@eschatologist.net> On Jun 16, 2020, at 10:23 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > Jon Elson wrote: >> Yes, several other groups I read and contribute to have moved to >> groups.io, and they are working quite well and reliably. Some options >> require $10 a month to be free from ads. > > That's a red flag. Being able to pay a service not to show ads on their web site shows that they're willing to say "no" to advertisers, which is pretty much the opposite of a red flag to me. -- Chris From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jun 17 16:12:32 2020 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:12:32 +0000 Subject: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <20200617204426.GA73748@night.db.net> References: <202006172041.05HKfd2X40960246@floodgap.com> <20200617204426.GA73748@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20200617211229.GA4163@lonesome.com> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 04:44:26PM -0400, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: > mutt! +1 From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Jun 17 16:13:59 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:13:59 -0700 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 17, 2020, at 1:50 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote: > >>>> There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features compared to > > Please please, no groups of any kinds. They're all horrible to use. Do you mean "web forum" where you say "groups?" > A > genuine mailing list like this is infinitively easier to keep track of > and read at leisure. Can't stand groups.io. I've found the groups.io mailing list mode to be perfectly reasonable for a number of groups I'm a part of. And it has a forum-like front end for people who insist on doing everything through a web page. -- Chris From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 17 16:15:31 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <20200617205402.5999023ED7F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from Dennis Boone via cctalk at "Jun 17, 20 04:54:02 pm" Message-ID: <202006172115.05HLFV7f37159160@floodgap.com> > > > > > I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP. > > > > > > > > Barbarian! At least upgrade to Alpine. (That's what I use.) :D > > > > > > Philistines, all of you. I use a hacked version of Elm. > > > > mutt! > > `less`, out of system spool. tail -f $MAIL But seriously, written in Elm. I think there are a lot of text terminal mailers on this list. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Test-tube babies shouldn't throw stones. ----------------------------------- From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Jun 17 16:20:04 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:20:04 -0700 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jun 17, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, ED SHARPE @ AOHell.com via cctalk wrote: >> These 2 have my vote as well.... >> I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore! >> >>> The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on attachments. >>> Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well. > > I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP. > > In this group, I doubt that I am the only one. > > > Can we restrict to TEXT emails? Why? Pine/Alpine should show the text portion of any multipart messages perfectly reasonably, and not even attempt to download non-text MIME content from your IMAP server. Crispin designed the application and the protocol that way intentionally; his approach was always that you should be able to run your MUA locally with just a 2400bps link to your IMAP server, and get perfectly reasonable performance. -- Chris From bob at jfcl.com Wed Jun 17 13:21:56 2020 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:21:56 -0700 Subject: Schematic for DEC H7441 (not the H744!) Message-ID: <00a801d644d4$2ef87a40$8ce96ec0$@com> Is there a schematic for the H7441 regulator anywhere? There are several out there for the H744 but, although they are plug compatible, the H7441 is totally different. The H744 uses an LM723, but in the 7441 DEC appears to have rolled their own regulator using a bunch discrete parts and opamps. Bob From paul at mcjones.org Wed Jun 17 15:10:37 2020 From: paul at mcjones.org (Paul McJones) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:10:37 -0700 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010FCE92-22ED-4EEC-9ACA-F6486F9304E4@mcjones.org> Not exactly on subject, but problems designing the IBM 604 Electronic Calculating Punch due to the use of existing vacuum tube designs is discussed in section 2.4 of: Charles J. Bashe, Lyle R. Johnson, John H. Palmer, and Emerson W. Pugh IBM?s Early Computers The MIT Press, 1986 The book says Ralph Palmer set up a vacuum tube laboratory with the ability to manufacture small quantities of tubes. This helped them get credibility when they went to a vacuum tube manufacturer with a request for a design change to achieve the needed reliability for digital applications. From ethan at 757.org Wed Jun 17 16:39:44 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:39:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: References: <2FF8A03E-B93F-42B3-BA32-C932F6ED6EEC@avanthar.com> <20200610204033.A814F4E704@mx2.ezwind.net> <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> <29f5c23a-a717-6982-d103-9c220e0fcae6@gmail.com> <20200611175128.GA25492@tau1.ceti.pl> <20200617001536.GA1160@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: >> I guess so, too. Connecting Amiga to plasma was probably the least >> hassle of all alternatives. PC would need something special (either >> card or converter?), and a hard drive, and a big box, and separate >> keyboard and reboot every four(ty) days - Amiga 500 could be just >> "stuffed under the rug". And after loading a "demo" from a floppy, >> there was no moving parts involved. It could just sit there and >> display flying images for years. > > Exactly. Maybe once a week, turn it off, put in the new floppy from > HQ, turn it back on, or something like that. The early plasma TVs usually had BNC RGBHV inputs and such. They could take VGA in very easily. I'm pretty sure a PC would have been way easier to deal with and could reach much higher resolutions... without needing a DB-23 connector :-) - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Jun 17 16:49:33 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:49:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech References: <890915661.1769757.1592430573627.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <890915661.1769757.1592430573627@mail.yahoo.com> We use groups,io for the tom swift discussion group real handy to post photos, files and etc.. On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: On Jun 17, 2020, at 1:50 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote: > >>>> There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features compared to > > Please please, no groups of any kinds. They're all horrible to use. Do you mean "web forum" where you say "groups?" > A > genuine mailing list like this is infinitively easier to keep track of > and read at leisure. Can't stand groups.io. I've found the groups.io mailing list mode to be perfectly reasonable for a number of groups I'm a part of. And it has a forum-like front end for people who insist on doing everything through a web page. ? -- Chris From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 17 16:50:20 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 22:50:20 +0100 Subject: Attachments In-Reply-To: <93f55c4a-466a-d1c3-f325-03e24eaaa57a@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <02a301d644ad$986bf050$c943d0f0$@ntlworld.com> <20200617172822.GB10317@tau1.ceti.pl> <3e96dacd-6ac7-4d34-36d2-d6f7a00dc792@mainecoon.com> <93f55c4a-466a-d1c3-f325-03e24eaaa57a@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <02c801d644f1$4c6828b0$e5387a10$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of ben via cctalk > Sent: 17 June 2020 21:39 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Attachments > > On 6/17/2020 11:53 AM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > On 6/17/20 10:44 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > >> If we remove the restriction on attachments, can we at least set a > >> size limit? I dislike multi-MB attachments. > > > > Or do as some other lists do and simply scrub the attachment and > > substitute a URL to where the attachment can be found. Otherwise I > > suppose I number in the "If it needs to move, groups.io seems the > > least horrible place to go" camp. > > > The question is what attachments are needed to send for this list? > Ben. Easy, pictures of unidentified components, sending out schematics that have been reverse engineered, documentation, pictures of scope traces when trying to find a fault, all sorts. I would agree on a size limit though. Regards Rob From justgold79 at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 16:56:51 2020 From: justgold79 at gmail.com (Justin Goldberg) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:56:51 -0400 Subject: Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu In-Reply-To: <1febe61b-2585-8d80-b581-c5ba0c20f378@sydex.com> References: <1febe61b-2585-8d80-b581-c5ba0c20f378@sydex.com> Message-ID: Kind of OT: I recall reading on some health forum that in a certain Japanese paint factory, workers would put dried paint flakes under their tongues and then spit them out, a-la homeopathically, to make them impervious to the chemicals. It is believed to work by sending a signal to the gut "to prepare for this chemical". Not sure if it would have worked on inks but it may have. Justin Goldberg https://www.linkedin.com/in/justinpaulgoldberg On Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 4:27 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/17/20 12:25 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > https://archive.org/details/FarewellEtaoinShrdlu > > > > 28min documentary on the last ever edition of the NY Times to be > > printed using hot metal -- before they switched to what are now a > > quite choice assortment of late-'70s minicomputers. I think I spotted > > a PDP, a Data General and some IBM device, but I am no expert in this > > era. > > > > When I was in college, I went on a weekend trip with a friend to see > where he worked during the summer. It was a print-shop, complete with > both letterpress and offset--and a Linotype ("pot" heated with natural > gas). The local advertising circular was still set with hot type and I > witnessed the operation of that contraption. Noisy and wonderful. > > See the Twilight Zone episode "Printer's Devil" for another sample. > > I was told that most newspaper pressmen were alcoholics, as it blunted > the effect of the then-toxic inks used in printing. > > Anent ETAOIN: Early on in the formation of the CDC spinoff, ETA > Systems, I asked Neil Lincoln what "ETA" stood for. He related the > story of his son and ETAOIN SHRDLU. Back then, the name of the > supercomputer was referred to as the GF-10; later changed to the ETA-10. > > (GF standing for GigaFLOP). > > --Chuck > > > From doug at doughq.com Wed Jun 17 17:44:51 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 08:44:51 +1000 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <890915661.1769757.1592430573627@mail.yahoo.com> References: <890915661.1769757.1592430573627.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <890915661.1769757.1592430573627@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I gave up on hosting my own email years ago when I was the recipient of tens of thousands of spam messages per day, both to this and my business email address. I now simply use gmail to handle email - seems like the G beast has seen every bit of spam before, so the spam transfer rate is approximating zero. All of the old mailing lists I use are on groups.io - I actually don't log into their platform, instead they send me updates as messages. These often contain attachments, which don't bother me, as its using google mail storage to store, and unless its interesting, I don't bother copying it into my world. That way, complete disk images can be sent and I don't mind. Using a glass screen VDU with a mouse, means that the sparse, and expensive to obtain paper for the TTY is not adversely used when somebody top or bottom or sideways posts. And I can even catch up on email while I am using my phone in the bus. If we do implement attachments that are limited to one SSDD 8" disk, can there please be some technological way of chaining disk 'parts' to allow larger attachments to be transmitted? Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard - for this I apologise in advance - It's ok bec**** we don* nee* accu**** tex* to unde****** actu** mean***. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, Setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:49 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > We use groups,io for the tom swift discussion group real handy to post > photos, files and etc.. > On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 Chris Hanson via cctalk < > cmhanson at eschatologist.net; cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Jun 17, 2020, at 1:50 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk > wrote: > > > >>>> There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features compared > to > > > > Please please, no groups of any kinds. They're all horrible to use. > > Do you mean "web forum" where you say "groups?" > > > A > > genuine mailing list like this is infinitively easier to keep track of > > and read at leisure. Can't stand groups.io. > > I've found the groups.io mailing list mode to be > perfectly reasonable for a number of groups I'm a part of. And it has a > forum-like front end for people who insist on doing everything through a > web page. > > -- Chris > From rsk at gsp.org Wed Jun 17 17:46:55 2020 From: rsk at gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 18:46:55 -0400 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20200617224655.GA15107@gsp.org> I'd be happy to host the list at firemountain.net, where a Mailman 2.X instance has been happily running a few dozen public and private lists for 15-ish years (majordomo before that) (homebrew scripts before that). No charge, no ads. If the archives are available in mbox format (or something that can be massaged into mbox format) I can import all of those. I would also suggest that -- to future-proof this -- that multiple people stash those archives and stash future archives as they accrue. Given archives and a subscriber list, a mailing list can be reconstituted anywhere. Merging lists: if the consensus is that it should be done, I can do that. (Whether that means the subscriber lists, the archives, or both.) Attachments: that's also do-able if consensus indicates but I recommend that they be limited to open formats, because delivering messages with proprietary attachments is a quagmire even if all the recipients want them. (long explanation omitted) Many years of experience indicate that doing this and imposing a soft large-but-finite maximum message size facilitates communication without overwhelming people. And since someone will ask: I use mutt. ---rsk From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 17 18:06:02 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:06:02 -0600 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <890915661.1769757.1592430573627.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <890915661.1769757.1592430573627@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55b4d77b-f327-536e-0230-90bd89acc47f@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/17/2020 4:44 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > If we do implement attachments that are limited to one SSDD 8" disk, can > there please be some technological way of chaining disk 'parts' to allow > larger attachments to be transmitted? I am not turning my computer over, just to use the other side of a 8" floppy. Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 17 18:21:33 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <890915661.1769757.1592430573627.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <890915661.1769757.1592430573627@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jun 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > If we do implement attachments that are limited to one SSDD 8" disk, can > there please be some technological way of chaining disk 'parts' to allow > larger attachments to be transmitted? If you use MS-DOS, and have a large drive in addition to the 8" SSSD, you could type: COPY file1 + file2 + file3 + file4 + file5 bigfile Many Backup/Restore programs have capability of splitting and recombining files. OR have a CCTALK "files" storage area (maybe on a website?), that could host large files, and include LINKS, not CONTENT, in the emails. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Jun 17 19:20:09 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:20:09 -0700 Subject: CSPI SC-3XL and SC-4XL documentation? Message-ID: I've just come into a couple of CSPI VME cards, an SC-3XL and an SC-4XL (both with attached memory), and I was wondering if anyone has documentation. They're based on the Intel i860 and intended for VME-based array processors. -- Chris From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jun 17 21:28:51 2020 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:28:51 -0500 Subject: Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu In-Reply-To: <1febe61b-2585-8d80-b581-c5ba0c20f378@sydex.com> References: <1febe61b-2585-8d80-b581-c5ba0c20f378@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56550155-5107-48FE-88BE-52BE8691E759@pobox.com> And Lincoln had MN license plate ?ETAOIN? on his rusted out Ford van and one of the other guys in our ?wiz kid? bunch had ?SHRDLU? on his plates. We later learned that the Eta were some kind of Spanish terrorist group and so Neil liked that story better? we were going to terrorize the supercomputer world with this ETA-10. cje -- Chris Elmquist > On Jun 17, 2020, at 3:28 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 6/17/20 12:25 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> https://archive.org/details/FarewellEtaoinShrdlu >> >> 28min documentary on the last ever edition of the NY Times to be >> printed using hot metal -- before they switched to what are now a >> quite choice assortment of late-'70s minicomputers. I think I spotted >> a PDP, a Data General and some IBM device, but I am no expert in this >> era. >> > > When I was in college, I went on a weekend trip with a friend to see > where he worked during the summer. It was a print-shop, complete with > both letterpress and offset--and a Linotype ("pot" heated with natural > gas). The local advertising circular was still set with hot type and I > witnessed the operation of that contraption. Noisy and wonderful. > > See the Twilight Zone episode "Printer's Devil" for another sample. > > I was told that most newspaper pressmen were alcoholics, as it blunted > the effect of the then-toxic inks used in printing. > > Anent ETAOIN: Early on in the formation of the CDC spinoff, ETA > Systems, I asked Neil Lincoln what "ETA" stood for. He related the > story of his son and ETAOIN SHRDLU. Back then, the name of the > supercomputer was referred to as the GF-10; later changed to the ETA-10. > > (GF standing for GigaFLOP). > > --Chuck > From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jun 17 21:31:31 2020 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:31:31 -0500 Subject: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <202006172041.05HKfd2X40960246@floodgap.com> References: <202006172041.05HKfd2X40960246@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <67C122F6-7008-42AF-8C3A-96F105BCA7BE@pobox.com> > On Jun 17, 2020, at 3:43 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > > ? >> >>> I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP. >> >> Barbarian! At least upgrade to Alpine. (That's what I use.) :D > > Philistines, all of you. I use a hacked version of Elm. And what?s wrong with Mutt? I have yet to suffer a phishing attack with that. Chris From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jun 17 21:32:44 2020 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:32:44 -0500 Subject: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <20200617204426.GA73748@night.db.net> References: <20200617204426.GA73748@night.db.net> Message-ID: <5038ABAF-DC79-4358-9F62-3E4E02F9FFBF@pobox.com> > On Jun 17, 2020, at 3:46 PM, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: > > ?On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 01:41:39PM -0700, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >>>> I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP. >>> >>> Barbarian! At least upgrade to Alpine. (That's what I use.) :D >> >> Philistines, all of you. I use a hacked version of Elm. > > mutt! Ya! Exactly. Woof. cje From ama at ugr.es Wed Jun 17 21:36:29 2020 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel M Alganza) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 04:36:29 +0200 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2051914332.1642643.1592413480680@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200618023629.4ubtxw7b5q5uteaw@morgan.ugr.es> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 10:48:19AM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP. > In this group, I doubt that I am the only one. I use Mutt. > Can we restrict to TEXT emails? Yes please! Cheers, ?ngel From joezatarski at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 22:51:38 2020 From: joezatarski at gmail.com (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 22:51:38 -0500 Subject: Was: PDP-8/A transformer hum Is: VXT-2000 stuff. Message-ID: <32c5ade9-9c5d-a7cc-9b85-f8d1c2a93743@gmail.com> > > > > On 6/9/2020 11:51 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:04 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> For the VXT-2000 with an H7109-B the rated voltage and current values >> are printed right on the power supply label: >> >> +5.1V, 7.81A >> +12.1V, 0.62A >> -12.1V, 0.46A >> -9V, 0.2A >> >> Fixed width character pinout diagram: >> >> +=================+ >> -9V | Yellow | Orange | +12.1V >> +--------+--------+ >> ??? | White | Black | Gnd >> +--------+--------+ >> +5.1V | Red | Blue | -12.1V >> +--------+--------+ >> +5.1V | Red | Black | Gnd >> +--------+--------+ >> Gnd | Black | Black | Gnd >> +=================+ >> >> The mystery is the White wire. The power supply label only lists 4 >> output voltages. The White wire appears to be routed to the Ethernet >> daughter board. The measured voltage appears that it might be floating >> slightly negative, somewhere around -1.5V when the Ethernet daughter >> board is installed and around -5V when it is removed. Maybe it is a >> high impedance earth ground connection? It appears to be connected to >> the shield of the Ethernet BNC, which measures around 1M-Ohm to the >> chassis ground when the power supply is disconnected from the main >> board, and around 0.75M-Ohm when the power supply is connected. >> > As long as we are talking VXT-2000, I have this on file, figure it would > be useful for future googling of the list if > this were here as well.? May be a repeat of info from an earlier post, > or maybe elsewhere. > > I didn't save the source of the info, but looks like someone named Matt > Millman did it. > > The setup is as follows: HP Envy laptop running MOP boot daemon, > connected to Lantronix LTX-C twisted pair > ethernet to AUI converter (not the same as a twisted pair MAU). This is > then connected to a cabletron coax > MAU with a 10BASE5 vampire tap. The coax runs over to another MAU, which > is connected via an AUI cable to > my VXT2000. I didn't think of it, but it would have been nice to have a > real DEC MAU on the VXT2000, I've > got several DEC h4000's I could have used. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5T2GlAN2N4 > > http://tech.mattmillman.com/projects/10base5/ The first link is mine actually. (Hi, I'm Joe from Joe's Vax Repair and More). I have a VXT-2000 and have had it setup and booting on a few occasions. I also happened into some 10BASE5 equipment a few years back and the VXT2000 was one of the only AUI devices I had at the time. I'm not Matt Millman, but I did reference that site to find the existence of the Lantronix LTX-C and similar devices. Now that I have more AUI gear, I plan to put different gear on the 3-node AUI segment (cisco 2511 router, media converter to 10BASE2, VAXStation 3200) and move the other 10Mb equipment to a 10BASE2 segment. The whole mess will be joined to the main network via T1 on a Kentrox CSU/DSU on the 2511. You can boot the VXT2000 using MOP or BOOTP and TFTP actually. MOP was the first thing I managed to get working, but BOOTP and TFTP worked equally well once I had it set up correctly. Unfortunately my bootptab file is on a roommate's MicroVAX II... Anyway, see the links section here for the software: https://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/DEC_VXT2000 There's also theoretically OpenBSD and NetBSD support for the VXT2000, but in my experience the netboot stuff is pretty broken on VAX for whatever reason. There's at least one bug for the SGEC ethernet chip driver, and I could only get older versions of the network boot mop file to load. Of course, the older versions wouldn't support the newer kernel format, which apparently changed at some point. Or maybe I'm just doing something wrong. If the machine in question gets repaired, feel free to contact me with any questions. If you're familiar with netbooting VAX systems, it's not too hard to figure out though. I'll add that the note about the 9V supply being isolated sounds reasonable. It could be used as the supply for the built-in 10BASE2 MAU on some units. I can't confirm as my unit has 10BASET instead which has no requirement for an isolated supply. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 18:08:10 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:08:10 -0600 Subject: Schematic for DEC H7441 (not the H744!) In-Reply-To: <00a801d644d4$2ef87a40$8ce96ec0$@com> References: <00a801d644d4$2ef87a40$8ce96ec0$@com> Message-ID: DEC MK11-B Field Maintenance Print Set, October 1977 http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1170/MK11-B_Field_Maintenance_Print_Set_Oct77_part2.pdf pages 27 to 36 of the PDF file From bob at jfcl.com Wed Jun 17 18:49:51 2020 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:49:51 -0700 Subject: Schematic for DEC H7441 (not the H744!) In-Reply-To: References: <00a801d644d4$2ef87a40$8ce96ec0$@com> Message-ID: <000001d64501$fe8e22a0$fbaa67e0$@com> >Eric Smith wrote: >DEC MK11-B Field Maintenance Print Set, October 1977 Thanks, Eric! I was just about to post that I discovered it's also in the PDP-11/04 maintenance print on Bitsavers, although it's not in the 11/34 print - go figure... I didn't actually need the schematic, although I certainly used it this time. The H7441 has a giant inductor (L1 in the schematic) that's physically bolted to the PCB. It a U-channel thing that looks like a transformer but is actually just a big 30+ amp choke. Some PCB layout guy decided it was a good idea to run the +5V output and ground traces directly under this choke so, unless it's elevated above the PCB, it will short the output! I think it must have originally had some kind of rubber or fiber washers underneath it, but in mine the washers had disintegrated and were nowhere to be found. I could tell that it was shorted somewhere, but I kept thinking that it must be a bad capacitor or a shorted crowbar, and I'm embarrassed to say that it took me more than an hour to figure out that it was the frame on the choke. I carved up a rubber grommet with an X-acto to make some spacers and now it's as good as new. Bob From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jun 18 01:54:18 2020 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 08:54:18 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <1826736807.180833.1592413482251@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1826736807.180833.1592413482251.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1826736807.180833.1592413482251@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, ED SHARPE wrote: > These 2 have my vote as well.... > I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore! Yes, of course. I'm exclusively using Alpine even at work. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jun 18 02:04:56 2020 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 09:04:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech - text encoding In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <2fee01d644e5$00aa5210$01fef630$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, ben wrote: > Does this mailing list have people using EBCDIC for example? Yes, if for example I use Kermit on the IBM 5110 and connect to a UNIX host. ;-) But in this case, my Kermit is doing the translation between ASCII and EBCDIC. Christian From groups at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jun 18 02:21:44 2020 From: groups at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 08:21:44 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011@mail.yahoo.com> References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> ED SHARPE wrote: > Use modern email program that sees expanded char. Sets and graphics.... it > is a brand new world !??? I love old hardware to look at but if > communicating? I like? the ability to see graphical? things...? and I > think tell majority of people like? images of things......?? Ed# > Let me get this straight. If I stop using VMS MAIL for this list and use one of these new fangled things instead, I too will be able to make high quality postings to the list, just like this one??? Regards, Peter Coghlan > > On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, ED SHARPE @ AOHell.com via cctalk wrote: > > These 2 have my vote as well.... > > I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore! > > > >> The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on attachments. > >> Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well. > > I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP. > > In this group, I doubt that I am the only one. > > > Can we restrict to TEXT emails? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred? ? ??? ??? cisin at xenosoft.com > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Jun 18 03:38:29 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 10:38:29 +0200 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: References: <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> <29f5c23a-a717-6982-d103-9c220e0fcae6@gmail.com> <20200611175128.GA25492@tau1.ceti.pl> <20200617001536.GA1160@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20200618083829.GA14085@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 05:39:44PM -0400, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: [...] > The early plasma TVs usually had BNC RGBHV inputs and such. They could take > VGA in very easily. I'm pretty sure a PC would have been way easier to deal > with and could reach much higher resolutions... without needing a DB-23 > connector :-) Everything had RGB on this side of the Pond. There was a protectionist decree that all TVs sold in France would have a SCART socket, but of course this just meant that pan-European models sprouted SCART sockets and the French TV industry was back to square one. Old standards never die, and the TV I bought in 2018 has a SCART socket and would quite probably decode SECAM but I have no SECAM sources to test it (and they'll even be rare in France these days). DB-23 to SCART cables were (and still are) readily-available from anywhere that has anything to do with the Amiga. Sometimes they had sawn-down DB-25 plugs since DB-23 wasn't exactly a common connector even in the Amiga's heyday. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 03:42:16 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 09:42:16 +0100 Subject: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech Message-ID: <339401d6454c$5ee22bc0$1ca68340$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan > via cctalk > Sent: 18 June 2020 08:22 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Future of cctalk/cctech > > ED SHARPE wrote: > > Use modern email program that sees expanded char. Sets and > > graphics.... it is a brand new world ! I love old hardware to look > > at but if communicating I like the ability to see graphical > > things... and I think tell majority of people like images of > > things...... Ed# > > > Just beware. Some environments, especially old EBCDIC ones put different currency symbols on the same code points So:- I wrote this as one dollar => $1.00 This as one pound => $1 And this as one euro => ?1 Lastly one cent => ?1 I expect you all get that as sent except for perhaps the Euro which didn't exist when Peters VAX was built.... ... but on an old UK EBCDIC mainframe Dollar becomes Pound and Cent becomes dollar. This was a real pain as a UK user of Bitnet. Dave > Let me get this straight. If I stop using VMS MAIL for this list and use one of > these new fangled things instead, I too will be able to make high quality > postings to the list, just like this one??? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan > > > > > On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 Fred Cisin via cctalk cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, ED SHARPE @ AOHell.com via cctalk wrote: > > > These 2 have my vote as well.... > > > I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore! > > > > > >> The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on > attachments. > > >> Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well. > > > > I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP. > > > > In this group, I doubt that I am the only one. > > > > > > Can we restrict to TEXT emails? > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 03:45:19 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 09:45:19 +0100 Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: <20200618083829.GA14085@mooli.org.uk> References: <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> <29f5c23a-a717-6982-d103-9c220e0fcae6@gmail.com> <20200611175128.GA25492@tau1.ceti.pl> <20200617001536.GA1160@tau1.ceti.pl> <20200618083829.GA14085@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <339601d6454c$cc068a20$64139e60$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Corlett via > cctalk > Sent: 18 June 2020 09:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Amiga Vendors? > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 05:39:44PM -0400, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > [...] > > The early plasma TVs usually had BNC RGBHV inputs and such. They could > > take VGA in very easily. I'm pretty sure a PC would have been way > > easier to deal with and could reach much higher resolutions... without > > needing a DB-23 connector :-) > > Everything had RGB on this side of the Pond. There was a protectionist > decree that all TVs sold in France would have a SCART socket, but of course > this just meant that pan-European models sprouted SCART sockets and the > French TV industry was back to square one. Old standards never die, and the > TV I bought in 2018 has a SCART socket and would quite probably decode > SECAM but I have no SECAM sources to test it (and they'll even be rare in > France these days). > The latest TVs do not have anything other tan HDMI. I bought a pile of converter boxes that take SCART and convert to HDMI but for old VGA machines I am just hanging on to my monitors. > DB-23 to SCART cables were (and still are) readily-available from anywhere > that has anything to do with the Amiga. Sometimes they had sawn-down DB- > 25 plugs since DB-23 wasn't exactly a common connector even in the Amiga's > heyday. Dave From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jun 18 03:38:19 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 09:38:19 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech - text encoding In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <2fee01d644e5$00aa5210$01fef630$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01RM7REWMMP491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Christian Corti wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, ben wrote: > > Does this mailing list have people using EBCDIC for example? > > Yes, if for example I use Kermit on the IBM 5110 and connect to a UNIX > host. ;-) But in this case, my Kermit is doing the translation between > ASCII and EBCDIC. Does anyone use ASCII anymore? Most of the emails I get now are marked as utf-8 with the occasional iso-8859-1. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > Christian From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Jun 18 04:01:42 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:01:42 +0200 Subject: Attachments In-Reply-To: <02c801d644f1$4c6828b0$e5387a10$@ntlworld.com> References: <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <02a301d644ad$986bf050$c943d0f0$@ntlworld.com> <20200617172822.GB10317@tau1.ceti.pl> <3e96dacd-6ac7-4d34-36d2-d6f7a00dc792@mainecoon.com> <93f55c4a-466a-d1c3-f325-03e24eaaa57a@jetnet.ab.ca> <02c801d644f1$4c6828b0$e5387a10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20200618090142.GB14085@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 10:50:20PM +0100, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: [...] > Easy, pictures of unidentified components, sending out schematics that have > been reverse engineered, documentation, pictures of scope traces when trying > to find a fault, all sorts. I would agree on a size limit though. The kind of size limit required to keep attachments small enough to not annoy people who are not interested in them would be too low for this purpose. The annoyance increases further when people with broken email clients (or who just never bothered to learn their tools) include senders' attachments in their replies. A typical digicam or scanner produces multi-megabyte files. Reducing them in size to fit within e.g. a 1MB limit would still cause the same level of inconvenience to the sender as uploading it somewhere and posting a link as well as reducing the quality and utility to those who are interested. I also note an inverse relationship between the size of an email and the quality of its contents. Further, an orders-of-magnitude explosion in the resources used by this list would reduce the number of people willing to host it. My shell server which I use for mail is perhaps typical: it has a 20TB/month transfer cap which is effectively infinite, but its 20GB disk would be eventually consumed by all of those attachments kept forever in the list archives that people also want. From lars at nocrew.org Thu Jun 18 04:03:18 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 09:03:18 +0000 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech - text encoding In-Reply-To: <01RM7REWMMP491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> (Peter Coghlan via cctalk's message of "Thu, 18 Jun 2020 09:38:19 +0100 (WET-DST)") References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <2fee01d644e5$00aa5210$01fef630$@gmail.com> <01RM7REWMMP491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <7w1rmckap5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Peter Coghlan wrote: > Does anyone use ASCII anymore? I read and write my email with Emacs running in a terminal emulator. I rarely need anything beoynd codepoint 126. I hear MIT-MC is a popular host for mailing lists. Remind me, is ARPANET still up and running? From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Jun 18 04:10:42 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 09:10:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <339401d6454c$5ee22bc0$1ca68340$@gmail.com> References: <339401d6454c$5ee22bc0$1ca68340$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2012727263.39351.1592471442062@mail.yahoo.com> Dave --? I? suppose? ?the? solve? is? to? write? it? out? long hand? as in One Dollar? ?One Cent? One? Pound...?I never? considered? how? the? monetary vales? ?could? get? screwed up.?Ed#...CIn a message dated 6/18/2020 1:42:27 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? ?> -----Original Message-----> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan> via cctalk> Sent: 18 June 2020 08:22> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts> > Subject: RE: Future of cctalk/cctech> > ED SHARPE wrote:> > Use modern email program that sees expanded char. Sets and> > graphics.... it is a brand new world !? ? I love old hardware to look> > at but if communicating? I like? the ability to see graphical> > things...? and I think tell majority of people like? images of> > things......? Ed#> >> ?Just beware. Some environments, especially old EBCDIC ones put different currency symbols on the same code pointsSo:-?I wrote this as one dollar => $1.00This as one pound => $1And this as one euro => ?1Lastly one cent => ?1?I expect you all get that as sent except for perhaps the Euro which didn't exist when Peters VAX was built....... but on an old UK EBCDIC mainframe Dollar becomes Pound and Cent becomes dollar. This was a real pain as a UK user of Bitnet. ?Dave?> Let me get this straight.? If I stop using VMS MAIL for this list and use one of> these new fangled things instead, I too will be able to make high quality> postings to the list, just like this one???> > Regards,> Peter Coghlan From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jun 18 04:06:32 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 10:06:32 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <339401d6454c$5ee22bc0$1ca68340$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Dave Wade wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan > > via cctalk > > Sent: 18 June 2020 08:22 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: RE: Future of cctalk/cctech > > > > ED SHARPE wrote: > > > Use modern email program that sees expanded char. Sets and > > > graphics.... it is a brand new world ! I love old hardware to look > > > at but if communicating I like the ability to see graphical > > > things... and I think tell majority of people like images of > > > things...... Ed# > > > > > > > Just beware. Some environments, especially old EBCDIC ones put different currency symbols on the same code points > So:- > > I wrote this as one dollar => $1.00 > This as one pound => $1 > And this as one euro => ?1 > Lastly one cent => ?1 > > I expect you all get that as sent except for perhaps the Euro which didn't exist when Peters VAX was built.... > ... but on an old UK EBCDIC mainframe Dollar becomes Pound and Cent becomes dollar. This was a real pain as a UK user of Bitnet. Well, Peter reads cctalk using VMS MAIL on his alphas and this has it's own problems. Around VMS 8.something, someone had the bright idea that VMS MAIL should replace certain "unusual" characters (such as the tilde for example) with (you guessed it) a dollar sign rather than present them directly to the reader for some unknown reason... However, Peter uses PMDF MAIL to post to the list because it has been pointed out to him that VMS MAIL doesn't do References: and In-Reply-To: headers correctly. On that note, has anyone heard from Mouse? I haven't seen anything posted by him in a very long time now. To get somewhere near back on topic, I am trying to set up a synchronous serial link between two MicroVAX 3100 machines with DSH32 (or DST32 maybe) interfaces. One of the options I have is a BC19D cable and a BC19V cable which seem to be identical or nearly identical. Each plugs into a DSH32 at one end and has a V.24 DB25 connector at the other end. I don't seem to have anything available in the way of a pair of suitably similar modems or a modem eliminator to put between the two V.24 connectors. Can anyone suggest some kind of a quick hardware hack that I could use to fill the gap? Is a pair of DB25 sockets with crossed over wiring betweeen them sufficient or do I need something that generates clock signals too? Regards, Peter Coghlan. > Dave From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Thu Jun 18 04:31:45 2020 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 10:31:45 +0100 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board (Peter Van Peborgh) Message-ID: <02f101d64553$48aa70e0$d9ff52a0$@vanpeborgh.eu> Sorry guys about the unusable tera-URLs. To reiterate, I have acquired this board and have trouble assigning it to a particular computer manufacturer and type: Try this for the photos: https://tinyurl.com/ydxnzh9g and https://tinyurl.com/yb6z3utv Smells of (early) 1960s transistorized. No helpful marking apart from * "GATE JJ01" on SIDE A. (components). * "C NT OL DATA" on side B (solder traces). Big transistors are Motorola "180376008". Also, any ideas what the "246 636 B" boxes are, they have four legs? Can any of you of mature years suggest anything? Many thanks, ( praise be to TinyURL), peter From camiel at vaxbarn.com Thu Jun 18 05:18:34 2020 From: camiel at vaxbarn.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 12:18:34 +0200 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board (Peter Van Peborgh) In-Reply-To: <02f101d64553$48aa70e0$d9ff52a0$@vanpeborgh.eu> References: <02f101d64553$48aa70e0$d9ff52a0$@vanpeborgh.eu> Message-ID: <3ADE0E12-C20D-4483-9479-9CF4DFB043BB@vaxbarn.com> Nope, those tiny urls still refer to URLs that we can?t open. As was suggested before, these URLs are probably specific to your browser session. > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:31 AM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctech wrote: > > Sorry guys about the unusable tera-URLs. > > To reiterate, I have acquired this board and have trouble assigning it to a > particular computer manufacturer and type: > > > Try this for the photos: > https://tinyurl.com/ydxnzh9g > and > https://tinyurl.com/yb6z3utv > > Smells of (early) 1960s transistorized. > No helpful marking apart from > * "GATE JJ01" on SIDE A. (components). > * "C NT OL DATA" on side B (solder traces). > > Big transistors are Motorola "180376008". Also, any ideas what the "246 636 > B" boxes are, they have four legs? > > Can any of you of mature years suggest anything? > > Many thanks, ( praise be to TinyURL), > > peter > > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 18 05:47:22 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:47:22 +0100 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <00607478-5502-60e0-c1fa-2eb0c8233f20@ntlworld.com> On 18/06/2020 10:06, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > To get somewhere near back on topic, I am trying to set up a synchronous > serial link between two MicroVAX 3100 machines with DSH32 (or DST32 maybe) > interfaces. One of the options I have is a BC19D cable and a BC19V cable > which seem to be identical or nearly identical. Each plugs into a DSH32 > at one end and has a V.24 DB25 connector at the other end. I don't seem > to have anything available in the way of a pair of suitably similar modems > or a modem eliminator to put between the two V.24 connectors. Can anyone > suggest some kind of a quick hardware hack that I could use to fill the > gap? Is a pair of DB25 sockets with crossed over wiring betweeen them > sufficient or do I need something that generates clock signals too? > I can't find my DHS32/DST32 docs right now but it's probably a simple re-spin of the DSH32. I think that the DST32 was the uVAX2000 option and the DSH32 was for the uVAX 3100 series. My notes say that my MicroVAX 2000 has a DST32 (54-17230) but the preliminary version of EK-283AA-AD-001 is for the DSH32 and that talks about the MicroVAX 2000! I think that in the lab at DEC I used a modem eliminator (I used to support all of the synch devices supported by VAX WANDD). I may even have some of those modem eliminators in the garage. Just to double check ... you definitely have synch boards and not (for example) 8-way asynch lines? There were a whole bunch of designators that were so very close: DST32, DHT32, DSH32, DHW41, DSW41! Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 06:48:45 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:48:45 +0200 Subject: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <339401d6454c$5ee22bc0$1ca68340$@gmail.com> References: <339401d6454c$5ee22bc0$1ca68340$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 at 10:42, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > I wrote this as one dollar => $1.00 Dollar symbol, one > This as one pound => $1 Dollar symbol, 1 > And this as one euro => ?1 Euro symbol, one > Lastly one cent => ?1 Cent symbol, one Fascinating. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 06:51:01 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:51:01 +0200 Subject: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <2012727263.39351.1592471442062@mail.yahoo.com> References: <339401d6454c$5ee22bc0$1ca68340$@gmail.com> <2012727263.39351.1592471442062@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 at 11:10, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Dave -- I suppose the solve is to write it out long hand as in One Dollar One Cent One Pound... Dear hypothetical deities, no. That causes problems with translation, people not knowing the name of another country's currency in a foreign language, etc. There is a standardized internationally-agreed set of 3 ASCII letter symbols for this reason and this is why people use them. USD = US dollar GBP = GB pound EUR = Euro CZK = Czech crown (korun/koruny/koruna, depending on quantity, in Czech) Etc etc. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 07:20:44 2020 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 09:20:44 -0300 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 2020-06-18 6:06 a.m., Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > To get somewhere near back on topic, I am trying to set up a synchronous > serial link between two MicroVAX 3100 machines with DSH32 (or DST32 maybe) > interfaces. One of the options I have is a BC19D cable and a BC19V cable > which seem to be identical or nearly identical. Each plugs into a DSH32 > at one end and has a V.24 DB25 connector at the other end. I don't seem > to have anything available in the way of a pair of suitably similar modems > or a modem eliminator to put between the two V.24 connectors. Can anyone > suggest some kind of a quick hardware hack that I could use to fill the > gap? Is a pair of DB25 sockets with crossed over wiring betweeen them > sufficient or do I need something that generates clock signals too? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > > While I have no experience with MicroVAX, I do recall that? on the machine I was involved with synchronous communications on, IBM terminals and systems, there was an option for the interface to provide clocking and I suppose it might be possible to set one side to provide the transmit and receive clocks and cross them over to the other interface, but I have never tried that.? When I worked in a development center with a room full of S/38 and S/36 we had a modem rack with a large number of Gandalf modem eliminators that provided clocking to the interface. In the field the most common setup was to have the modem provide the clocks as the common carrier could synchronize them over a long distance. Paul. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Jun 18 07:33:06 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:33:06 +0200 Subject: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <339401d6454c$5ee22bc0$1ca68340$@gmail.com> References: <339401d6454c$5ee22bc0$1ca68340$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20200618123306.GA3515@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 09:42:16AM +0100, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: [...] > I wrote this as one dollar => $1.00 > This as one pound => $1 > And this as one euro => ?1 > Lastly one cent => ?1 This came over the wire as follows: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [...] > I wrote this as one dollar =3D> $1.00 > This as one pound =3D> $1 > And this as one euro =3D> =E2=82=AC1 > Lastly one cent =3D> =C2=A21 IOW, it has the correct headers to unambiguously decode the text. Whether the receiving software is competent enough to handle Q-P UTF-8 text is something else entirely, especially if it's in an obscure or recently-added script or symbol set where suitable fonts don't exist or haven't been installed, but your example doesn't contain any difficult code points. The correct Q-P UTF-8 encoding for "?" is "=C2=A3". (I've dealt with so much broken software that I know this without looking it up.) It seems likely that it got mangled by something at your end in whatever converts it to "modern" (1993) email format. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Jun 18 07:33:25 2020 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:33:25 +0200 Subject: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <20200617204426.GA73748@night.db.net> References: <202006172041.05HKfd2X40960246@floodgap.com> <20200617204426.GA73748@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20200618123324.x5wo7g2nqxybnm26@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2020-06-17 16:44:26 -0400, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 01:41:39PM -0700, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > > > > I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP. > > > > > > Barbarian! At least upgrade to Alpine. (That's what I use.) :D > > > > Philistines, all of you. I use a hacked version of Elm. > > mutt! Indeed. I get quite a lot of emails and mutt allows me to properly fight back. MfG, JBG -- From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Jun 18 08:34:40 2020 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 08:34:40 -0500 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech - text encoding In-Reply-To: <7w1rmckap5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <2fee01d644e5$00aa5210$01fef630$@gmail.com> <01RM7REWMMP491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <7w1rmckap5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <352F01F5-E8FF-481F-8EBC-1BA807AC0F01@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Jun 18, 2020, at 4:03 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > Peter Coghlan wrote: >> Does anyone use ASCII anymore? > > I read and write my email with Emacs running in a terminal emulator. > I rarely need anything beoynd codepoint 126. I vote we move the list to an Exchange server behind a SSL VPN and mandate the use of Outlook, then force all messages to be in quoted-printable encoding. This way nobody ?wins? and everyone is equally miserable. It?s only fair. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jun 18 08:06:15 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:06:15 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <00607478-5502-60e0-c1fa-2eb0c8233f20@ntlworld.com> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RM81TKMTXM91VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 18/06/2020 10:06, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > > To get somewhere near back on topic, I am trying to set up a synchronous > > serial link between two MicroVAX 3100 machines with DSH32 (or DST32 maybe) > > interfaces. One of the options I have is a BC19D cable and a BC19V cable > > which seem to be identical or nearly identical. Each plugs into a DSH32 > > at one end and has a V.24 DB25 connector at the other end. I don't seem > > to have anything available in the way of a pair of suitably similar modems > > or a modem eliminator to put between the two V.24 connectors. Can anyone > > suggest some kind of a quick hardware hack that I could use to fill the > > gap? Is a pair of DB25 sockets with crossed over wiring betweeen them > > sufficient or do I need something that generates clock signals too? > > > > I can't find my DHS32/DST32 docs right now but it's probably a simple > re-spin of the DSH32. > > I think that the DST32 was the uVAX2000 option and the DSH32 was for the > uVAX 3100 series. > > My notes say that my MicroVAX 2000 has a DST32 (54-17230) but the > preliminary version of EK-283AA-AD-001 is for the DSH32 and that talks > about the MicroVAX 2000! > Thanks for your reply Antonio. I have found the whole thing very confusing too. My suspicion was also that they were pretty much the same thing but the DST32 had exernal connectors suitable for mounting in a MicroVAX 2000 while the DST32 had external connectors that could be mounted in a MicroVAX 3100. That is, until I also came across the preliminary version of EK-283AA-AD-001 which threw cold water on that theory. Unless it was originally called the DSH32 and then renamed to DST32 for the MicroVAX 2000 or something... The console code in one of my MicroVAX 3100 machines shows this: >>> test 50 KA41-D V1.0 [snip] DSH32-A 00FF.0001 V1.0 DSH32-S 0000.0001 V3.0 NI 0000.0001 >>> Yet in VAX/VMS 7.3, I see this: $ ANALYZE /SYSTEM OpenVMS (TM) VAX System analyzer SDA> show dev zsa0 I/O data structures ------------------- ZSA0 ZS_DST32 UCB address: 814EAA40 [snip] > > I think that in the lab at DEC I used a modem eliminator (I used to > support all of the synch devices supported by VAX WANDD). I may even > have some of those modem eliminators in the garage. > I was hoping to use VAX WANDD but I ended up having to install DECnet OSI on VMS 7.3. Perhaps if I dig up an earlier VMS version, I can avoid using DECnet OSI? > > Just to double check ... you definitely have synch boards and not (for > example) 8-way asynch lines? There were a whole bunch of designators > that were so very close: DST32, DHT32, DSH32, DHW41, DSW41! > I have two boards in two MicroVAX 3100 machines. Each board has one Synchronous serial port (50 pin D connector) and eight asynchronous terminal lines (36 pin Centronics connector). To add further confusion, I have a third MicroVAX 3100 which has the 50 pin and 36 pin external connectors on the back but no actual DSH32/DHT32 board inside! I also have the following cables: 1 BC19C Rev B1 50 pin D (female) to 13/15 pin D (male) X.21 1 BC19D Rev B 50 pin D (female) to 16/25 pin D (male) V.24 1 BC19F Rev B 50 pin D (female) to 17/34 pin "square" thing (male) V.35 1 BC19V 50 pin D (female) to 16/25 pin D (male) V.24 and I also have two Nokia DS 60100 baseband modems, one with a V.35 interface card and one with an X.21 interface card. When I hook up the former with the BC19F cable, I can get the lights on the modem to react when I try to access ZSA0: on the MicroVAX. However, I can't get any reaction when I use the BC19C cable with the latter even when I jumper the modem to take account of the fewer signals available in X.21. It may be that the BC19C is meant for something other than the DSH/T32... Anyway, this whole line of attack is fairly academic as the modems can only do 48kbps - 160kbps and the maximum for the DSH/T32 seems to be 19200bps. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > Antonio > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 18 08:47:25 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 06:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jun 2020, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > ED SHARPE wrote: >> Use modern email program that sees expanded char. Sets and graphics.... it >> is a brand new world !??? I love old hardware to look at but if >> communicating? I like? the ability to see graphical? things...? and I >> think tell majority of people like? images of things......?? Ed# >> > > Let me get this straight. If I stop using VMS MAIL for this list and use > one of these new fangled things instead, I too will be able to make high > quality postings to the list, just like this one??? > Yes, you too can produce a bountiful word salad with UTF-16 characters in place of spaces! Amaze your friends! Women will want you! Men will want to BE you! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Jun 18 08:54:20 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:54:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amiga Vendors? In-Reply-To: <20200618083829.GA14085@mooli.org.uk> References: <70C58F7D-EBE9-44A8-AD85-DF6085CDF4AF@avanthar.com> <29f5c23a-a717-6982-d103-9c220e0fcae6@gmail.com> <20200611175128.GA25492@tau1.ceti.pl> <20200617001536.GA1160@tau1.ceti.pl> <20200618083829.GA14085@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jun 2020, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > DB-23 to SCART cables were (and still are) readily-available from anywhere that > has anything to do with the Amiga. Sometimes they had sawn-down DB-25 plugs > since DB-23 wasn't exactly a common connector even in the Amiga's heyday. Unsurprisingly, given that the shell chosen isn't really DB nor any of the remaining D-sub standard DA, DC, DD, DE shell sizes (which may then come in various signal, power or RF pin configurations, e.g. the Sun DB-13W3, or DEC DA-3W3, or VGA DE-15 connectors). They could have opted for standard DA-26 if they were after connector space saving rather than locking customers into an inherently more expensive proprietary solution. Maciej From rsk at gsp.org Thu Jun 18 09:59:25 2020 From: rsk at gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 10:59:25 -0400 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <20200617145151.2FCCB274A4@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <5EEA269A.5030504@pico-systems.com> <20200617145151.2FCCB274A4@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20200618145925.GA21238@gsp.org> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 09:46:53AM -0500, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > I'm most puzzled by the eager hosting volunteers who'd volunteer even before > they have a full understanding of the job. Wouldn't you want to know > how much time it might take you to administer the list, how much > bandwidth it eats, storage, format of the archives, etc.? I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case: I've been running mailing lists for 35-ish years, so I may have a fairly good handle on the scope. To address some of those points: administering a migrated mailing list -- once it's past the transition -- requires very little effort. How much effort it takes during the transition can be guesstimated via the number of users and their aggregate clue level, e.g., technical lists are usually much easier because people on them know how to speak to Mailman/majordomo/et.al. or can figure it out. Bandwidth is inconsequential for all but the largest/busiest lists, e.g., thousands of subscribers X thousands of messages a day. Storage is too: I have decades of archives of a few thousand mailing lists and they fit comfortably on a 250G drive without even bothering to compress them. Archives, if kept in mbox format, are easy to manipulate, combine, separate, etc. If they're not in mbox format, tools like formail can assist in making them so. (It's not at all unreasonable for every member of a mailing list like this one to stash a complete copy of the archive as insurance.) This isn't entirely pain-free: I run a mailing list with an approximately 250,000-message archive accumulated over many years over multiple hosts, and there a few outlier messages that Mailman's archiver won't process. But: "few", so while it's an annoyance it's really quite a minor problem. ---rsk From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 18 11:30:16 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:30:16 -0500 Subject: Future of classiccmp Message-ID: <000001d6458d$c022f4f0$4068ded0$@classiccmp.org> Al wrote: >With Jay retiring, what are the hosting plans for these mailing lists? Well at least for me, there's more to it than that ? I retired from general work on 4/30/20. My consulting firm is going to be kept open on paper for a few years at least but I doubt I will be transacting much business through it. I guess if someone comes by with a short project that I find interesting, I may do it through that company but mostly it's staying open to handle a few germane expenses. All staff and offices are gone and regular payrolls ended 4/30. That leaves the hosting company for me to determine scope/future. Since that company (as long as you are proactive with admin tasks) takes virtually zero work and allows me to have a grossly oversized but paid for full-on high availability virtualization architecture, I was going to keep it going during retirement with just a few very low maintenance customers that cover the costs. I basically can then host any personal/hobby related sites for myself and friends at literally zero cost. In this company I do have one business partner, and that relationship has become quite difficult lately. So much so, that I'm ready to just turn it off and walk away. I'm sorry, but I have reached the point in my life where that stress outweighs the benefits. This infrastructure is of course where I've hosted not only the classiccmp mailing list, but a fair chunk of other classic computing related websites and services at zero cost to their respective owners. Throw in to the mix that for whatever reason - while I have dutifully taken care of this list and a lot of other related websites for probably 15+ years or more - I honestly don't feel that I am doing a good job of it's care & feeding lately. I think it's time for fresh eyes and attitudes to carry it forward. I hope no one begrudges me for after decades finally saying "it's time". I have enjoyed being of service. First and foremost, there is no worry about future hosting plans for above content. I'm not going to just turn it off one day - the grizzled veterans here that know me well know that I would not let that happen. There is no sense of immediate urgency nor any possibility of data just disappearing. That being said, I do wish to move steadily forward with those plans. Second, I do not wish to pass this off to someone who "has a server in their basement" or has spare space on a vps. While I appreciate these offers and the desire to help, I'm not sure you have full knowledge of what all is here. Putting it on a "PC in your basement" is not the environment this stuff requires. At the very least, asymmetric bandwidth (what most people have in their homes) is a non-starter. Sneaking it on to your company infrastructure isn't good either, as there is almost always a builtin "need to move this stuff soon" disruption in store. I've already been working with folks in this community to figure out what to offload, where, how, etc. That work will continue, and I suspect that each separate migration will go off transparently with little or no outward signs of change. Also, I am definitely not leaving the hobby; I just look forward to participating as an end-user instead of host. Just as a heads up at the same time I am looking to thin my herd; not because I've lost interest but because I want to gain focus. That means most likely that I will be moving out a lot of choice DEC, Data General, Heathkit, and related items. I will post separately on that topic, but at the least I am going to keep/focus on HP and a couple others. Will post more info once I have it ? Best, J From ccth6600 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 06:18:19 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 19:18:19 +0800 Subject: PLATO V Terminal Message-ID: I have been "hunting" for a PLATO V terminal for some time. It was made by Regency - Carroll. If there is such a terminal gathering dust in a shed or garage and the owner would like to find a good home for it then please let me know. I have successfully restored a Control Data Corp IST-3 terminal and 721 Viking terminal and have the skills, equipment and passion to restore the terminal to its former beauty and functionality. Tom Hunter From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 18 12:01:47 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 12:01:47 -0500 Subject: Future of classiccmp In-Reply-To: <000001d6458d$c022f4f0$4068ded0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d6458d$c022f4f0$4068ded0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000d01d64592$26f069c0$74d13d40$@classiccmp.org> The period of me making decisions about the list is coming to an end, but based on all the posts I just caught up with here's some thoughts: I would be predisposed to handing it to someone that intends to continue the mailing list format. We already have a very active discord group (which works fantastic for posting pics with your posts), so I see little reason to move to a web based format for this list. Most of us are here cause we prefer the email format. Those who don't - use the discord server, those who like both - use both ? Picture attachments have been a shortcoming here, there's times when it would be really nice. There are also situations where its likely to be abused especially in the eyes of those who prefer the email format. I would suggest either allow pic posts but only if 1000% on-topic, and even better yet, only allow pics if the mailing list automatically stores them somewhere and only puts a link to the pic in the email. That way, the email stays text only, and users that want to see the pic can. Another approach is maybe 'if you need to post pics, do it on the discord'. One or the other, but the email list should stay a text email service IMHO. I did not like the list splitting (cctalk/cctech) when it was done, and still don't. I have intended to rejoin the lists into one list for the past few years and just never got around to it. I will be asking whoever winds up getting the list to do the following tasks as part of the agreement: 1) Rejoin the lists, 2) completely straighten out the archives. Get all the missing stuff, make it all processed and stored in the same way (downloadable archives or text scannable online), and automated. I am embarrassed by how I have let the archives degenerate, but they are still fix-up-able. Whoever takes on the list needs to be prepared to do this as well. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 18 13:34:38 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:34:38 -0700 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <01RM81TKMTXM91VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM81TKMTXM91VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <1331b371-7518-d10a-4843-8292a4362ea2@sydex.com> On 6/18/20 6:06 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > and I also have two Nokia DS 60100 baseband modems, one with a V.35 > interface card and one with an X.21 interface card.? When I hook up the > former with the BC19F cable, I can get the lights on the modem to react > when I try to access ZSA0: on the MicroVAX.? However, I can't get any > reaction when I use the BC19C cable with the latter even when I jumper > the modem to take account of the fewer signals available in X.21.? It > may be that the BC19C is meant for something other than the DSH/T32... > Anyway, this whole line of attack is fairly academic as the modems can > only do 48kbps - 160kbps and the maximum for the DSH/T32 seems to be > 19200bps. We would have been delighted to get 19.2K on our 11/750. Leased line with a Bell 209 modem, 9600 sync. Back then, that ran about $5K/month for the hookup. --Chuck From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jun 18 13:14:43 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 19:14:43 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Paul Berger wrote: > On 2020-06-18 6:06 a.m., Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > To get somewhere near back on topic, I am trying to set up a synchronous > > serial link between two MicroVAX 3100 machines with DSH32 (or DST32 maybe) > > interfaces. One of the options I have is a BC19D cable and a BC19V cable > > which seem to be identical or nearly identical. Each plugs into a DSH32 > > at one end and has a V.24 DB25 connector at the other end. I don't seem > > to have anything available in the way of a pair of suitably similar modems > > or a modem eliminator to put between the two V.24 connectors. Can anyone > > suggest some kind of a quick hardware hack that I could use to fill the > > gap? Is a pair of DB25 sockets with crossed over wiring betweeen them > > sufficient or do I need something that generates clock signals too? > > > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan. > > > > > While I have no experience with MicroVAX, I do recall that? on the > machine I was involved with synchronous communications on, IBM terminals > and systems, there was an option for the interface to provide clocking > and I suppose it might be possible to set one side to provide the > transmit and receive clocks and cross them over to the other interface, > but I have never tried that.? When I worked in a development center with > a room full of S/38 and S/36 we had a modem rack with a large number of > Gandalf modem eliminators that provided clocking to the interface. > > In the field the most common setup was to have the modem provide the > clocks as the common carrier could synchronize them over a long distance. > Thanks for your reply Paul. My eventual goal is to be able to use the synchronous serial interface on a MicroVAX to connect to IBM machines that only support bisync lines. However, I don't have access to any such IBM kit at the moment so I have to make do with trying to get the MicroVAX to talk to another instance of itself for now. As I mentioned in another reply, I have a pair of baseband synchronous modems and were it not for a speed incompatibility between them and the MicroVAX synchronous serial interfaces I have access to, plus another probably minor snag, it looks very much like they would do the job when suitably jumpered. There is even a card in the bottom of each modem case giving details of all the jumper settings! Regards, Peter. > Paul. > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 18 13:48:30 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:48:30 -0400 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <901823AB-2BB6-469B-B3A2-F0B3517117CF@comcast.net> > On Jun 18, 2020, at 2:14 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > ... > As I mentioned in another reply, I have a pair of baseband synchronous modems > and were it not for a speed incompatibility between them and the MicroVAX > synchronous serial interfaces I have access to, ... I'm curious about that. Synchronous modems supply the bit clock to the interface. So a synchronous interface works at whatever speed the modem delivers, so long as it's not too fast for the interface. What are the Microvax sync interfaces you have? DMV? DUV? A DMV will work at up to 56 kbps. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 13:52:45 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:52:45 -0400 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <339401d6454c$5ee22bc0$1ca68340$@gmail.com> <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 5:53 AM Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > To get somewhere near back on topic, I am trying to set up a synchronous > serial link between two MicroVAX 3100 machines with DSH32 (or DST32 maybe) > interfaces. One of the options I have is a BC19D cable and a BC19V cable > which seem to be identical or nearly identical. Each plugs into a DSH32 > at one end and has a V.24 DB25 connector at the other end. I don't seem > to have anything available in the way of a pair of suitably similar modems > or a modem eliminator to put between the two V.24 connectors. Can anyone > suggest some kind of a quick hardware hack that I could use to fill the > gap? Is a pair of DB25 sockets with crossed over wiring betweeen them > sufficient or do I need something that generates clock signals too? If both ends don't care about delays in the handshake lines that would be natural with a modem or high-end modem eliminator, you can just match up the signals between the two devices as you would for a null modem. As for the clocking, yes, a modem or modem eliminator provides the baud rate clocking on pins 15 and 17. You could use any one of a number of baud rate generators, from the COM 8116 (one that we used at work in the early 80s for a simple modem eliminator) to a modern microcontroller thumping out pulses at the right frequency. You'll need to drive both sides of the connection at RS-232 levels, so a level shifter (1488 if you have +/-12V handy, or MAX232 if you do not). AFAIK, you can drive both ends from one line driver, but the safer course would be to drive each clock pin independently. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 13:55:13 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:55:13 -0400 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <901823AB-2BB6-469B-B3A2-F0B3517117CF@comcast.net> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <901823AB-2BB6-469B-B3A2-F0B3517117CF@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 2:48 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > On Jun 18, 2020, at 2:14 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > As I mentioned in another reply, I have a pair of baseband synchronous modems > > and were it not for a speed incompatibility between them and the MicroVAX > > synchronous serial interfaces I have access to, ... > > I'm curious about that. Synchronous modems supply the bit clock to the interface. So a synchronous interface works at whatever speed the modem delivers, so long as it's not too fast for the interface. What are the Microvax sync interfaces you have? DMV? DUV? A DMV will work at up to 56 kbps. We used to run our sync serial stuff between 9600 and 56kbps, both our own Bisync products, and DDCMP over interfaces like the one that's part of the DMF32. We had customers in Europe running our products at 64kbps with no problems, and we did have one modem eliminator clocked at 115kbps for testing, which is the max speed for V.24, IIRC. 56kbps should be safe for the devices you are describing, but it might go a little faster. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 14:05:44 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:05:44 -0400 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 2:42 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for your reply Paul. My eventual goal is to be able to use the > synchronous serial interface on a MicroVAX to connect to IBM machines that > only support bisync lines. I'm curious which software package you are using. In the 80s and 90s, I worked for Software Results Corp, and we sold hundreds (small thousands?) of Unibus, Qbus, and VAXBI interfaces and software suites under the name COMBOARD for Bisync and SNA comms from DEC-to-IBM (RSTS, RSX-11, VMS, and UNIX). In my experience, people paid us $10K-$25K per line because they had problems with whatever other solution they were looking at that cost less. I don't know any specific details on where the gaps were, but just that people did experience bugs or missing features that made them come to us. I'd like to hear about what you are encountering once you get to the point of passing bytes. > However, I don't have access to any such IBM kit > at the moment so I have to make do with trying to get the MicroVAX to talk > to another instance of itself for now. For bisync (3780/HASP) that should be just fine. There's a simple difference in the protocol so that each end can tell who is the master, and AFAIK, any implementation you encounter should be able to be set in the appropriate mode, but you _do_ have to tell each end what their role is or they will chatter endlessly if they both think they are the master. Apologies if you already know this. It's been a long time and I'm not sure who remembers what details about obscure comms from 30-40 years ago. I myself haven't even set up a bisync connection in 25 years. I used to do this stuff every day, then by the mid-90s, it entirely evaporated. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 18 14:07:58 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 12:07:58 -0700 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <901823AB-2BB6-469B-B3A2-F0B3517117CF@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/18/20 11:55 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > We used to run our sync serial stuff between 9600 and 56kbps, both our > own Bisync products, and DDCMP over interfaces like the one that's > part of the DMF32. We had customers in Europe running our products at > 64kbps with no problems, and we did have one modem eliminator clocked > at 115kbps for testing, which is the max speed for V.24, IIRC. > > 56kbps should be safe for the devices you are describing, but it might > go a little faster. My recollection of the Bell 209 is that it supported a low-speed reverse channel in addition to the FDX primary. Did any DEC equipment ever take advantage of that? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 18 14:12:27 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 12:12:27 -0700 Subject: PLATO V Terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/18/20 4:18 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I have been "hunting" for a PLATO V terminal for some time. It was made by > Regency - Carroll. > > If there is such a terminal gathering dust in a shed or garage and the > owner would like to find a good home for it then please let me know. > > I have successfully restored a Control Data Corp IST-3 terminal and 721 > Viking terminal and have the skills, equipment and passion to restore the > terminal to its former beauty and functionality. So what does one do with a PLATO terminal? I was acquainted only with the PLATO IV terminal and, although I took a couple of CDC-mandated courses on it (don't remember a thing), I mostly sneaked time to play AIRFIGHT. At one NCC, I remember asking the folks in the PLATO booth if they minded if I checked out their setup. Since there was virtually no one around, I brought up AIRFIGHT. Within 10 minutes, I had a crowd straining for a peek. That's now you sell hardware! --Chuck From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Jun 18 14:15:25 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 20:15:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jun 2020, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > However, Peter uses PMDF MAIL to post to the list because it has been > pointed out to him that VMS MAIL doesn't do References: and In-Reply-To: > headers correctly. On that note, has anyone heard from Mouse? I haven't > seen anything posted by him in a very long time now. Yep, last Sat on the VAX/NetBSD mailing list. Maciej From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 14:26:16 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:26:16 -0400 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <901823AB-2BB6-469B-B3A2-F0B3517117CF@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 3:08 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/18/20 11:55 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > > We used to run our sync serial stuff between 9600 and 56kbps, both our > > own Bisync products, and DDCMP over interfaces like the one that's > > part of the DMF32... > > My recollection of the Bell 209 is that it supported a low-speed reverse > channel in addition to the FDX primary. I had to look that up. Yes. I see that in the spec, at *5*bps. > Did any DEC equipment ever take advantage of that? I've never encountered it before, so I cannot confirm. -ethan From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 18 15:19:20 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 16:19:20 -0400 Subject: PLATO V Terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82C4DD8B-1B78-494F-ABF4-05D42FB84F76@comcast.net> > On Jun 18, 2020, at 3:12 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/18/20 4:18 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >> I have been "hunting" for a PLATO V terminal for some time. It was made by >> Regency - Carroll. >> >> If there is such a terminal gathering dust in a shed or garage and the >> owner would like to find a good home for it then please let me know. >> >> I have successfully restored a Control Data Corp IST-3 terminal and 721 >> Viking terminal and have the skills, equipment and passion to restore the >> terminal to its former beauty and functionality. > > So what does one do with a PLATO terminal? I was acquainted only with > the PLATO IV terminal and, although I took a couple of CDC-mandated > courses on it (don't remember a thing), I mostly sneaked time to play > AIRFIGHT. > > At one NCC, I remember asking the folks in the PLATO booth if they > minded if I checked out their setup. Since there was virtually no one > around, I brought up AIRFIGHT. Within 10 minutes, I had a crowd > straining for a peek. Nice. Yes, airfight and any number of other multi-user games -- a thing made popular by PLATO and possibly originated there. There is a running PLATO system around, see www.cyber1.org for details. Its users normally use a terminal emulators, but real terminals can be connected to it and a few are around that are set up that way. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 18 15:20:47 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:20:47 -0600 Subject: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <20200618123324.x5wo7g2nqxybnm26@lug-owl.de> References: <202006172041.05HKfd2X40960246@floodgap.com> <20200617204426.GA73748@night.db.net> <20200618123324.x5wo7g2nqxybnm26@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On 6/18/2020 6:33 AM, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote: > Indeed. I get quite a lot of emails and mutt allows me to properly > fight back. err Mutt bites back. I use whats free. Ben. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 18 15:31:23 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 16:31:23 -0400 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <901823AB-2BB6-469B-B3A2-F0B3517117CF@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jun 18, 2020, at 3:26 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 3:08 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >> On 6/18/20 11:55 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> >>> We used to run our sync serial stuff between 9600 and 56kbps, both our >>> own Bisync products, and DDCMP over interfaces like the one that's >>> part of the DMF32... >> >> My recollection of the Bell 209 is that it supported a low-speed reverse >> channel in addition to the FDX primary. > > I had to look that up. Yes. I see that in the spec, at *5*bps. Wow, that's weird. >> Did any DEC equipment ever take advantage of that? > > I've never encountered it before, so I cannot confirm. Not that I know of. I did see something vaguely similar. Bell 202 modems are 1200 baud FSK, so on a voice channel they normally are 1200 bps half duplex. They can also be hooked up to 4-wire fixed circuits. But they have a reverse channel, good for 150 baud if I remember right. PLATO used that in its original terminal connections, in a slightly strange way: 1260 bps data to the terminal, and 126 bps data from terminal to host. The protocols are peculiar: terminal output is "synchronous", 21 bit frames at 60 frames per second, but each frame has a start bit (no stop bit). Data to the host is asynchronous, 1 start, 1 stop bit, 10 data bits. Since a 202 modem is just plain FSK, it doesn't matter that the data rate is not quite the standard 1200 bps. paul From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 15:39:08 2020 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 17:39:08 -0300 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <1331b371-7518-d10a-4843-8292a4362ea2@sydex.com> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM81TKMTXM91VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <1331b371-7518-d10a-4843-8292a4362ea2@sydex.com> Message-ID: <52a1c8c2-63ea-0254-133f-ccefd4524e27@gmail.com> On 2020-06-18 3:34 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/18/20 6:06 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > >> and I also have two Nokia DS 60100 baseband modems, one with a V.35 >> interface card and one with an X.21 interface card.? When I hook up the >> former with the BC19F cable, I can get the lights on the modem to react >> when I try to access ZSA0: on the MicroVAX.? However, I can't get any >> reaction when I use the BC19C cable with the latter even when I jumper >> the modem to take account of the fewer signals available in X.21.? It >> may be that the BC19C is meant for something other than the DSH/T32... >> Anyway, this whole line of attack is fairly academic as the modems can >> only do 48kbps - 160kbps and the maximum for the DSH/T32 seems to be >> 19200bps. > We would have been delighted to get 19.2K on our 11/750. Leased line > with a Bell 209 modem, 9600 sync. Back then, that ran about $5K/month > for the hookup. > > --Chuck > When I started out in customer service many years ago anything faster than 9600 was very rare and even then they where often split off using stat muxes or multi-drop lines.? I call one store have a 9600 line back to head office in Toronto that served two store controllers, four 3777s with 3203 to print orders, one with a tape drive to transmit orders entered on a Nixdorf mini, as well as some miscellaneous terminals in the local warehouse and order office.? It was not uncommon for users of 3270 terminals to have the controllers in a few offices sharing a multi-drop line, the banks did the same thing with their terminal controllers and ATMs. I also remember some data centers having conditioned dial-up lines that included a handset that you could talk on, but it was pretty weird as the conditioned lines did not have echo suppressors. The first banking terminal I worked on where on a multi-drop 300 baud async line and I also worked on finance company terminals that where on a multi-drop telegraph line at a speedy 75 baud. Paul. From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Thu Jun 18 15:14:38 2020 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 21:14:38 +0100 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board (Peter Van Peborgh) Message-ID: <038601d645ad$18440ce0$48cc26a0$@vanpeborgh.eu> OK, now here are some pics that should be available to everybody. I hope. https://photos.app.goo.gl/h64tye8ecmPHQfJD7 Smells of (early) 1960s transistorized. No helpful marking apart from * "GATE JJ01" on SIDE A. (components). * "C NT OL DATA" on side B (solder traces). Big transistors are Motorola "180376008". Also, any ideas what the "246 636 B" boxes are, they have four legs? A curse on TinyURL and praise to Camiel Vanderhoven. peter From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jun 18 15:37:04 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:37:04 -0500 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board (Peter Van Peborgh) In-Reply-To: <038601d645ad$18440ce0$48cc26a0$@vanpeborgh.eu> References: <038601d645ad$18440ce0$48cc26a0$@vanpeborgh.eu> Message-ID: <5EEBD070.6000202@pico-systems.com> On 06/18/2020 03:14 PM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctech wrote: > * "C NT OL DATA" on side B (solder traces). > > Sure looks like Control Data, a major manufacturer of mainframe computers in the 60's and 70's. And, being all discrete transistors, that would likely be late 60's. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jun 18 15:38:48 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:38:48 -0500 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board (Peter Van Peborgh) In-Reply-To: <038601d645ad$18440ce0$48cc26a0$@vanpeborgh.eu> References: <038601d645ad$18440ce0$48cc26a0$@vanpeborgh.eu> Message-ID: <5EEBD0D8.1060205@pico-systems.com> On 06/18/2020 03:14 PM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctech wrote: > Big transistors are Motorola "180376008". Those would be "house numbers" in the customer's part numbering system. > Also, any ideas what the "246 636 > B" boxes are, they have four legs? > Most likely pulse transformers. This might be a core memory sense amp/inhibit driver board. Jon From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 18 16:47:18 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:47:18 +0100 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <01RM81TKMTXM91VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM81TKMTXM91VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <7f2cd464-5fc2-9b4f-3faf-ed36498913ae@ntlworld.com> On 18/06/2020 14:06, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > I have found the whole thing very confusing too.? My suspicion was also > that they were pretty much the same thing but the DST32 had exernal > connectors suitable for mounting in a MicroVAX 2000 while the DST32 had > external connectors that could be mounted in a MicroVAX 3100. That is, > until I also came across the preliminary version of EK-283AA-AD-001 > which threw cold water on that theory.? Unless it was originally called > the DSH32 and then renamed to DST32 for the MicroVAX 2000 or something... I expect that the uVAX 2000 interface was around well before the uVAX 3100 one. I suspect that the docs was wrong or that something got renamed at some stage. If I ever frind my notebooks from the time I can take a look. > > The console code in one of my MicroVAX 3100 machines shows this: > >>>> test 50 > > KA41-D? V1.0 > > [snip] > > ? DSH32-A? 00FF.0001? V1.0 > ? DSH32-S? 0000.0001? V3.0 > ? NI?????? 0000.0001 >>>> > > Yet in VAX/VMS 7.3, I see this: > > $ ANALYZE /SYSTEM > > OpenVMS (TM) VAX System analyzer > > SDA> show dev zsa0 > > I/O data structures > ------------------- > ZSA0??????????????????????????????????? ZS_DST32????????? UCB address: > 814EAA40 > > [snip] Wonderfully confusing :-) > > I was hoping to use VAX WANDD but I ended up having to install DECnet OSI > on VMS 7.3.? Perhaps if I dig up an earlier VMS version, I can avoid > using > DECnet OSI? If you further along it got renamed to DECnet-Plus ... would that help :-) I don't know when Phase IV support stopped for WANDD. DECnet-VAX Extensions went out in the V5.4-3 timeframe IIRC. Certainly for a while you have a choice and were not required to run DECnet/OSI. In fact the only reason that DECnet-VAX Extensions shipped was (iirc) that PSI/WANDD was ready and DECnet/OSI wasn't. Anyway, pre VMS V6.0 I'm sure you can just pull the latest contemporary WANDD kit off a VMS CD and you'll be fine. > > > I have two boards in two MicroVAX 3100 machines.? Each board has one > Synchronous serial port (50 pin D connector) and eight asynchronous > terminal lines (36 pin Centronics connector).? To add further confusion, > I have a third MicroVAX 3100 which has the 50 pin and 36 pin external > connectors on the back but no actual DSH32/DHT32 board inside! > > I also have the following cables: > > 1?? BC19C Rev B1? 50 pin D (female) to 13/15 pin D (male) X.21 > 1?? BC19D Rev B?? 50 pin D (female) to 16/25 pin D (male) V.24 > 1?? BC19F Rev B?? 50 pin D (female) to 17/34 pin "square" thing (male) > V.35 > 1?? BC19V???????? 50 pin D (female) to 16/25 pin D (male) V.24 On the synch side the idea was to get away from having a set of (often different) cables for each interface. Instead everything had the same 50-pin connector and then you picked the appropriate cable for V.25 or X.21 or whatever you needed. My DST32 has such a connector, as does your DSH32. I expect that the DSV-11 also is the same. DECnis certainly is. > > and I also have two Nokia DS 60100 baseband modems, one with a V.35 > interface card and one with an X.21 interface card.? When I hook up the > former with the BC19F cable, I can get the lights on the modem to react > when I try to access ZSA0: on the MicroVAX.? However, I can't get any > reaction when I use the BC19C cable with the latter even when I jumper > the modem to take account of the fewer signals available in X.21. It > may be that the BC19C is meant for something other than the DSH/T32... I don't remember the cable part numbers (although they will be in the manuals) but if it plugs into the 50-pin connector then it should work. > Anyway, this whole line of attack is fairly academic as the modems can > only do 48kbps - 160kbps and the maximum for the DSH/T32 seems to be > 19200bps. > I'd be surprised if they don't work at up to 56k at least. Maybe not 64k (I remember the DSV11 firmware engineer telling my that some extra work had to be done to get one of the DSV11 modes to work properly at 64k even in pathological cases, so maybe other, lower-end interfaces didn't get the same love). Above 64k would not have been a normal use case back in the day - I don't have any data handy to check what should work though. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jun 18 16:39:25 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:39:25 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <901823AB-2BB6-469B-B3A2-F0B3517117CF@comcast.net> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RM8IIQQ0HY91W09G@beyondthepale.ie> Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Jun 18, 2020, at 2:14 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk > > > ... > > As I mentioned in another reply, I have a pair of baseband synchronous mode > > and were it not for a speed incompatibility between them and the MicroVAX > > synchronous serial interfaces I have access to, ... > > I'm curious about that. Synchronous modems supply the bit clock to the > interface. So a synchronous interface works at whatever speed the modem > delivers, so long as it's not too fast for the interface. What are the > Microvax sync interfaces you have? DMV? DUV? A DMV will work at up to > 56 kbps. > There is conflicting information about what exactly the interface I have which is fitted in a MicroVAX 3100 is called. It looks most likely to be a DSH32 or a DSH32-B which may amount to the same thing but it could also be a DST32 which may also amount to the same thing... Documentation suggests that the synchronous interface part of a DSH32 (which for added confusion is referred to as DSH32-S) is DSV11 compatible but limited to a maximum of 19200 bps. The modems I have (which were intended for use with 64 kbps lines attached to Cisco routers) don't have jumpers for clock speeds lower than 48 kbps. Regards, Peter. > paul From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 18 16:53:40 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:53:40 -0700 Subject: PLATO V Terminal In-Reply-To: <82C4DD8B-1B78-494F-ABF4-05D42FB84F76@comcast.net> References: <82C4DD8B-1B78-494F-ABF4-05D42FB84F76@comcast.net> Message-ID: <12c043c7-b646-425a-b11b-c313d996c2df@sydex.com> On 6/18/20 1:19 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Nice. Yes, airfight and any number of other multi-user games -- a > thing made popular by PLATO and possibly originated there. There is > a running PLATO system around, see www.cyber1.org for details. Its > users normally use a terminal emulators, but real terminals can be > connected to it and a few are around that are set up that way. In my collection, I've got a 5.25" (360K) floppy sent to me back in the day that has the PLATO software for the IBM PC. Other than filing the disk away, I never thought to boot it and see what was there. Still have the disk, though. I don't imagine that it's particularly rare. --Chuck From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jun 18 17:03:19 2020 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:03:19 -0700 Subject: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <202006172041.05HKfd2X40960246@floodgap.com> References: <202006172041.05HKfd2X40960246@floodgap.com> Message-ID: I used to use netcat, but now I just watch an oscilloscope. On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 1:41 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP. > > > > Barbarian! At least upgrade to Alpine. (That's what I use.) :D > > Philistines, all of you. I use a hacked version of Elm. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. -- Napoleon > -------- > -- Eric Korpela korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu AST:7731^29u18e3 From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jun 18 16:55:35 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:55:35 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <339401d6454c$5ee22bc0$1ca68340$@gmail.com> <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RM8JCQY9Z691W09G@beyondthepale.ie> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 5:53 AM Peter Coghlan via cctalk > wrote: > > To get somewhere near back on topic, I am trying to set up a synchronous > > serial link between two MicroVAX 3100 machines with DSH32 (or DST32 maybe) > > interfaces. One of the options I have is a BC19D cable and a BC19V cable > > which seem to be identical or nearly identical. Each plugs into a DSH32 > > at one end and has a V.24 DB25 connector at the other end. I don't seem > > to have anything available in the way of a pair of suitably similar modems > > or a modem eliminator to put between the two V.24 connectors. Can anyone > > suggest some kind of a quick hardware hack that I could use to fill the > > gap? Is a pair of DB25 sockets with crossed over wiring betweeen them > > sufficient or do I need something that generates clock signals too? > > If both ends don't care about delays in the handshake lines that would > be natural with a modem or high-end modem eliminator, you can just > match up the signals between the two devices as you would for a null > modem. > > As for the clocking, yes, a modem or modem eliminator provides the > baud rate clocking on pins 15 and 17. You could use any one of a > number of baud rate generators, from the COM 8116 (one that we used at > work in the early 80s for a simple modem eliminator) to a modern > microcontroller thumping out pulses at the right frequency. You'll > need to drive both sides of the connection at RS-232 levels, so a > level shifter (1488 if you have +/-12V handy, or MAX232 if you do > not). AFAIK, you can drive both ends from one line driver, but the > safer course would be to drive each clock pin independently. > Hi Ethan, Thanks for your reply. I can rustle up +/-12V with a bench supply or two but I don't have a 1488 handy. I should be able to borrow a MAX232 from something though. I don't have any baud rate generators lying around either. How about a 555 generating square waves round about 10kHz for something approximating 9600 bps? Does it have to be spot on a "valid" rate or will anything "close" do as long as it is the same at both ends? To be absolutely clear, do I have to drive pins 15 and 17 going to both interfaces ie four loads on the driver in total? Regards, Peter. > -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 17:33:56 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 18:33:56 -0400 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <01RM8JCQY9Z691W09G@beyondthepale.ie> References: <339401d6454c$5ee22bc0$1ca68340$@gmail.com> <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8JCQY9Z691W09G@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 6:08 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > As for the clocking, yes, a modem or modem eliminator provides the > > baud rate clocking on pins 15 and 17. You could use any one of a > > number of baud rate generators... > I can rustle up +/-12V with a bench supply or two but I don't have a > 1488 handy. I should be able to borrow a MAX232 from something though. I have an abundance of 1488/1489 chips, but I used to make comms devices. I only have a few MAX232 devices not already baked into projects. > I don't have any baud rate generators lying around either. How about a > 555 generating square waves round about 10kHz for something approximating > 9600 bps? Does it have to be spot on a "valid" rate or will anything > "close" do as long as it is the same at both ends? It does need to be the same on both ends, and, yes, a 555 should work, but it's unlikely to be within 1% of a "real" rate. > To be absolutely clear, do I have to drive pins 15 and 17 going to both > interfaces ie four loads on the driver in total? Yes. Pins 15 and 17 on both ends. 4 loads. You can do asymmetric speeds, but the TX for one end has to match the RX for the other end. I see some discussion of that in this thread, but in my experience, we always had same-room direct connect lines, or dial-up lines over POTS and modem speeds like 1200 bps or 2400 bps because we didn't want to pay for leased or conditioned lines. Every connection I ever set up was symmetric. 99.9% were 56kbps or slower. -ethan From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jun 18 17:11:00 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:11:00 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RM8M397OG691W09G@beyondthepale.ie> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 2:42 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk > wrote: > > Thanks for your reply Paul. My eventual goal is to be able to use the > > synchronous serial interface on a MicroVAX to connect to IBM machines that > > only support bisync lines. > > I'm curious which software package you are using. In the 80s and 90s, > I worked for Software Results Corp, and we sold hundreds (small > thousands?) of Unibus, Qbus, and VAXBI interfaces and software suites > under the name COMBOARD for Bisync and SNA comms from DEC-to-IBM > (RSTS, RSX-11, VMS, and UNIX). In my experience, people paid us > $10K-$25K per line because they had problems with whatever other > solution they were looking at that cost less. I don't know any > specific details on where the gaps were, but just that people did > experience bugs or missing features that made them come to us. I'd > like to hear about what you are encountering once you get to the point > of passing bytes. > I am using a very old package called HUJI-NJE which implements NJE links on VAX/VMS and UNIX. This was later developed into "funetnje" which added some enhancements but broke the VMS functionality. I backported some of the funetnje enhancements into HUJI-NJE in order to use them on VMS. NJE over TCP/IP is implemented on both platforms but on VAX/VMS, there is also supposed to be support for using synchronous serial interfaces in the form of a DMF32, DMB32 or DSV32 (is that like a DSV11 I wonder?). If this all works out, it may be possible to use it to get NJE links into IBM mainframe hardware that only has support for bisync lines. It might also have applications in talking to 3270 terminals connected via bisync lines. HUJI-NJE is not great for debugging the hardware with so I am also using a pair of of example programs I found in AA?PHEPB?TE DECnet/OSI for VMS VAX WANDD Programming. > > > However, I don't have access to any such IBM kit > > at the moment so I have to make do with trying to get the MicroVAX to talk > > to another instance of itself for now. > > For bisync (3780/HASP) that should be just fine. There's a simple > difference in the protocol so that each end can tell who is the > master, and AFAIK, any implementation you encounter should be able to > be set in the appropriate mode, but you _do_ have to tell each end > what their role is or they will chatter endlessly if they both think > they are the master. > NJE is supposed to be able to use hardware features of devices such as the 2703 to be able to decide which end gets to be primary and which end gets to be secondary. Sounds like it will be fun to implement... I think endless chatter whether idle or not seems to be a feature of bisync. > > Apologies if you already know this. It's been a long time and I'm not > sure who remembers what details about obscure comms from 30-40 years > ago. I myself haven't even set up a bisync connection in 25 years. I > used to do this stuff every day, then by the mid-90s, it entirely > evaporated. > I am fairly well up on NJE but only over TCP/IP until now. All this synchronous serial stuff is completely new to me so I am grateful for any and all information I can get about it. Regards, Peter. > -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 18 18:21:14 2020 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 00:21:14 +0100 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <901823AB-2BB6-469B-B3A2-F0B3517117CF@comcast.net> Message-ID: <74f13a66-fa21-2181-7e85-61386ecc5cea@dunnington.plus.com> On 18/06/2020 21:31, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I did see something vaguely similar. Bell 202 modems are 1200 baud FSK, so on a voice channel they normally are 1200 bps half duplex. They can also be hooked up to 4-wire fixed circuits. But they have a reverse channel, good for 150 baud if I remember right. IIRC the Bell standard allows for only 50 baud and the back channel uses ASK (basically switching a carrier on and off). The CCITT equivalent standard is 1200/75 baud, FSK both ways, and in the 1980s and early 90s that was used for Prestel and similar systems, including Micronet, Telecom Gold email, Packet SwitchStream (PSS), BT Tymnet and some online banking systems, here in the UK. It was also used for Minitel in France, BTX in Germany and later for Telidon in Canada. Some of the UK banking systems like HOBS survived using viewdata that way up to the end of the 1990s, and I still have at least a couple of 1275 modems. The idea was to use 1200 for the transmission from central computer to consumer, and the back channel for user responses/commands. Not many people type faster than 7.5cps. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 18 18:21:29 2020 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 00:21:29 +0100 Subject: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <202006172041.05HKfd2X40960246@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <7cf34585-75df-357c-7263-656b663f0802@dunnington.plus.com> On 18/06/2020 23:03, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: > I used to use netcat, but now I just watch an oscilloscope. Reminds me of a cartoon in a HiFi mag several years ago. Enthusiast talking to friend in front of dual 'scopes, "Why listen to it when I can see it's perfect?" -- Pete Pete Turnbull From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Jun 18 18:46:06 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 19:46:06 -0400 Subject: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <202006172041.05HKfd2X40960246@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6571849d-9556-1e5d-7de1-e6919013236d@alembic.crystel.com> Sometimes I'll log into alembic and read my mail with BABYL. On 6/18/2020 6:03 PM, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: > I used to use netcat, but now I just watch an oscilloscope. > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 1:41 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>>> I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP. >>> >>> Barbarian! At least upgrade to Alpine. (That's what I use.) :D >> >> Philistines, all of you. I use a hacked version of Elm. >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------ personal: >> http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- >> Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * >> ckaiser at floodgap.com >> -- Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. -- Napoleon >> -------- >> > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 18 19:21:27 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 17:21:27 -0700 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <01RM8JCQY9Z691W09G@beyondthepale.ie> References: <339401d6454c$5ee22bc0$1ca68340$@gmail.com> <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8JCQY9Z691W09G@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <035e662d-7c0d-ccf2-9ba1-8f6e3b43062f@sydex.com> On 6/18/20 2:55 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > I can rustle up +/-12V with a bench supply or two but I don't have a > 1488 handy. I should be able to borrow a MAX232 from something though. > I don't have any baud rate generators lying around either. How about a > 555 generating square waves round about 10kHz for something approximating > 9600 bps? Does it have to be spot on a "valid" rate or will anything > "close" do as long as it is the same at both ends? Sync, in my recollection, is a bit fussier than async with respect to the clock signal. Unlike async, which "samples" the bit cell more-or-less in the center (hexce the 16x or 64x clock rate), synchronous is edge-sampled, so that the clock signal must match the data signal with respect to phase. The clock signal for receive data is recovered by the receiving modem and so is always in-phase. Such stuff as protocol details can differ greatly (e.g. Bisync vs. SDLC), but remember that there are no start or stop bits like as in async. Synchronization is done by pattern-matching with "idle" bits being sent to fill gaps or to form preamble to sync. In some respects, not terribly different from hard disk recording. It's been years since I fooled with the stuff, so I may have quite a bit wrong. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 18 19:25:24 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 20:25:24 -0400 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <01RM8JCQY9Z691W09G@beyondthepale.ie> References: <339401d6454c$5ee22bc0$1ca68340$@gmail.com> <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8JCQY9Z691W09G@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <9B552AB4-8453-446E-AF1D-BBA02A6B50E1@comcast.net> > On Jun 18, 2020, at 5:55 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I can rustle up +/-12V with a bench supply or two but I don't have a > 1488 handy. I should be able to borrow a MAX232 from something though. > I don't have any baud rate generators lying around either. How about a > 555 generating square waves round about 10kHz for something approximating > 9600 bps? Does it have to be spot on a "valid" rate or will anything > "close" do as long as it is the same at both ends? > > To be absolutely clear, do I have to drive pins 15 and 17 going to both > interfaces ie four loads on the driver in total? Yes. Both sides are looking for a receive clock to tell them were the incoming bits begin, and a transmit clock to control the shifting out of the transmit bits. Any speed should work so long as it's slow enough. So a 555 feeding a MAX232 should be fine. Most variants of that device have several drivers so you can split the four loads over more than one driver if you want to. That's probably not necessary. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 18 19:30:18 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 20:30:18 -0400 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <74f13a66-fa21-2181-7e85-61386ecc5cea@dunnington.plus.com> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <901823AB-2BB6-469B-B3A2-F0B3517117CF@comcast.net> <74f13a66-fa21-2181-7e85-61386ecc5cea@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 18, 2020, at 7:21 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > > On 18/06/2020 21:31, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> I did see something vaguely similar. Bell 202 modems are 1200 baud FSK, so on a voice channel they normally are 1200 bps half duplex. They can also be hooked up to 4-wire fixed circuits. But they have a reverse channel, good for 150 baud if I remember right. > > IIRC the Bell standard allows for only 50 baud and the back channel uses ASK (basically switching a carrier on and off). That rings a bell (so to speak). Chances are those specs were all pretty lenient and the 126 bps used by PLATO was non-standard but not a real problem. I don't know how common those connections were or what distance was needed. A large number of PLATO terminals were fed via a microwave video signal. That was a pretty neat setup: all 1008 terminal lines, TDM muxed into what looked like a video signal (so 60 frames per second). Devices called "site controllers" would receive that and extract the data streams for 32 terminals from that data. They'd also accept the 126 bps terminal->host data stream and stat-mux it into a single data stream going to the host, I don't remember seeing the format for that. The data center had a TV monitor that showed the outgoing signal. It looked vaguely like a punched card with a lot more than the usual number of holes in it. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 18 19:32:01 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 20:32:01 -0400 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <7f2cd464-5fc2-9b4f-3faf-ed36498913ae@ntlworld.com> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM81TKMTXM91VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <7f2cd464-5fc2-9b4f-3faf-ed36498913ae@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3870C33F-75C3-425E-BF7C-E97E7033A8BA@comcast.net> > On Jun 18, 2020, at 5:47 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > ... >> Anyway, this whole line of attack is fairly academic as the modems can >> only do 48kbps - 160kbps and the maximum for the DSH/T32 seems to be >> 19200bps. >> > > I'd be surprised if they don't work at up to 56k at least. Maybe not 64k (I remember the DSV11 firmware engineer telling my that some extra work had to be done to get one of the DSV11 modes to work properly at 64k even in pathological cases, so maybe other, lower-end interfaces didn't get the same love). > > > Above 64k would not have been a normal use case back in the day - I don't have any data handy to check what should work though. Not with modems, but of course the "local" line cards (coax pairs) for the DMC/DMR/DMP sync DDCMP controllers could go at 1 Mb/s. DMC only barely (with a few bugs). The DMV doesn't have that capability if I remember right. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 18 19:57:27 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 20:57:27 -0400 Subject: PLATO V Terminal In-Reply-To: <12c043c7-b646-425a-b11b-c313d996c2df@sydex.com> References: <82C4DD8B-1B78-494F-ABF4-05D42FB84F76@comcast.net> <12c043c7-b646-425a-b11b-c313d996c2df@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 18, 2020, at 5:53 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/18/20 1:19 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> > >> Nice. Yes, airfight and any number of other multi-user games -- a >> thing made popular by PLATO and possibly originated there. There is >> a running PLATO system around, see www.cyber1.org for details. Its >> users normally use a terminal emulators, but real terminals can be >> connected to it and a few are around that are set up that way. > > In my collection, I've got a 5.25" (360K) floppy sent to me back in the > day that has the PLATO software for the IBM PC. Other than filing the > disk away, I never thought to boot it and see what was there. > > Still have the disk, though. I don't imagine that it's particularly rare. I don't know. My PLATO experience predates the PC. Are you sure that's what it is? The later PLATO terminals (starting with the "PLATO V" one, in fact) had local execution capability, and some of them included a floppy drive for local program load. Those would be essentially PLATO software executing on the terminal rather that at the host. If so, recovering that information may turn up something not previously preserved. If it is indeed a PLATO terminal implemented as PC software, you could hook it up to Cyber1. paul From boris at summitclinic.com Thu Jun 18 20:22:38 2020 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 17:22:38 -0800 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board (Peter Van Peborgh) In-Reply-To: <038601d645ad$18440ce0$48cc26a0$@vanpeborgh.eu> References: <038601d645ad$18440ce0$48cc26a0$@vanpeborgh.eu> Message-ID: <20200619012243.08966275EA@mx1.ezwind.net> Remember buying boards like that at electronics surplus places in late 60's but never knew where they came from. Just used them as a cheap source of parts. Also suspect the black boxes are pulse transformers although all of the pulse transformers I pulled off boards were circular. Never thought much then about where they came from and just got ones with most transistors and diodes on them so could make DTL logic gates from them. Think a board like that might have gone for $1-2 back then which was way cheaper than buying new transistors and diodes in those days and TTL IC's were ridiculously expensive then. Boris Gimbarzevsky >OK, now here are some pics that should be available to everybody. I hope. > >https://photos.app.goo.gl/h64tye8ecmPHQfJD7 > >Smells of (early) 1960s transistorized. >No helpful marking apart from >* "GATE JJ01" on SIDE A. (components). >* "C NT OL DATA" on side B (solder traces). > >Big transistors are Motorola "180376008". Also, any ideas what the "246 636 >B" boxes are, they have four legs? > >A curse on TinyURL and praise to Camiel Vanderhoven. > >peter From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 20:56:02 2020 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 21:56:02 -0400 Subject: Attachments In-Reply-To: <20200618090142.GB14085@mooli.org.uk> References: <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <02a301d644ad$986bf050$c943d0f0$@ntlworld.com> <20200617172822.GB10317@tau1.ceti.pl> <3e96dacd-6ac7-4d34-36d2-d6f7a00dc792@mainecoon.com> <93f55c4a-466a-d1c3-f325-03e24eaaa57a@jetnet.ab.ca> <02c801d644f1$4c6828b0$e5387a10$@ntlworld.com> <20200618090142.GB14085@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 5:01 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 10:50:20PM +0100, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > [...] > > Easy, pictures of unidentified components, sending out schematics that > have > > been reverse engineered, documentation, pictures of scope traces when > trying > > to find a fault, all sorts. I would agree on a size limit though. > > The kind of size limit required to keep attachments small enough to not > annoy > people who are not interested in them would be too low for this purpose. > The > annoyance increases further when people with broken email clients (or who > just > never bothered to learn their tools) include senders' attachments in their > replies. > This is a tradeoff. - Allowing, let's say, 50MB attachments would enhance the experience for some people. I suspect there are many of them on this list. - Allowing any attachments at all would annoy some people. They tend to post a lot about how annoyed they would be. I suspect there are fewer of them than the others. - Allowing tiny attachments doesn't please anyone. A typical digicam or scanner produces multi-megabyte files. Reducing them in > size to fit within e.g. a 1MB limit would still cause the same level of > inconvenience to the sender as uploading it somewhere and posting a link as > well as reducing the quality and utility to those who are interested. I also note an inverse relationship between the size of an email and the > quality of its contents > Further, an orders-of-magnitude explosion in the resources used by this > list > would reduce the number of people willing to host it. My shell server > which I > use for mail is perhaps typical: it has a 20TB/month transfer cap which is > effectively infinite, but its 20GB disk would be eventually consumed by > all of > those attachments kept forever in the list archives that people also want. > A *person* willing to host it is the wrong approach. That makes the truck number 1. For redundancy you need to pay a service to host it, and have a few people with administrative rights. If people are scared of the service turning down and losing all history, they can personally archive every message. From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 21:28:05 2020 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:28:05 -0400 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 9:47 AM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 18 Jun 2020, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > ED SHARPE wrote: > >> Use modern email program that sees expanded char. Sets and graphics.... > it > >> is a brand new world ! I love old hardware to look at but if > >> communicating I like the ability to see graphical things... and I > >> think tell majority of people like images of things...... Ed# > >> > > > > Let me get this straight. If I stop using VMS MAIL for this list and use > > one of these new fangled things instead, I too will be able to make high > > quality postings to the list, just like this one??? > > > > Yes, you too can produce a bountiful word salad with UTF-16 characters in > place of spaces! Amaze your friends! Women will want you! Men will want > to BE you! > > g. > I don't mean to point at anyone on this thread. I'm not good at seeing who is serious or sarcastic in this thread, and I really don't care, because this This conversation has come up again and again and gotten stale. It fundamentally amounts to a few people asserting "There is nothing worth saying that can't be said with the 25 letters of the English alphabet, so therefore the list should only include text that I can't read on a teletype". I say enough. We live in a remarkable world where it is possible to share knowledge and experiences with people from all over the world. Some of them might be disruptive enough to have things like ASCII-inconvenient accented characters in their names. I would like to be able to spell my friends and colleagues' names correctly. And sometimes, a picture really is worth 1000 words. A tiny SVG diagram in the middle of a description can do wonders. Did your physics textbook pull all the diagrams out to an appendix, just leaving a reference in the text? No it didn't. That would have been inconvenient and unnecessary. Except for those who choose otherwise, we all have the capability to view mail that presents like any other printed matter. It's time to adopt a platform that can handle modern mail. Some may still choose a degraded experience, but everyone is entitled to their own fetish. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 18 23:13:49 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:13:49 -0500 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <000201d645f0$08ff1250$1afd36f0$@classiccmp.org> Tony Aiuto wrote.... >It's time to adopt a platform that can handle modern mail. >Some may still choose a degraded experience, but everyone is entitled to their own fetish. Yes, everyone is free to chose to use the list or the discord server or whatever is down the road years from now; but as a side note, the irony of posting that on a mailing list dedicated to teletypes and perkin elmers and 1401's and such... is not lost I'm sure ? J From sieler at allegro.com Fri Jun 19 00:27:04 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:27:04 -0700 Subject: Origin of 3-D printing (again) Message-ID: Hi, Back in 2017, I posted something about seeing a possible first-ever reference to the idea of 3-D printing in a 1951 issue of Galaxy Science Fiction magazine. I stumbled over an even earlier one tonight... The September, 1941, issue of Astounding Science Fiction magazine has a story called "Elsewhere" by Caleb Saunders (a pseudonym of Robert A. Heinlein). On page 118 we see: [They used] a single general type of machine to manufacture almost anything. They fed into it a plan which Igor called, for want of a better term, the blueprints. It was, in fact, a careful scale model of the device to be manufactured; the machine retooled itself and produced the artifact. A three-dimensional pantograph, Igor called the machine, vaguely and inaccurately. One of them was, at that moment, molding the bodies of fighting planes out. of plastic, all in one piece and in one operation. Stan From doug at doughq.com Thu Jun 18 17:48:04 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:48:04 +1000 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board (Peter Van Peborgh) In-Reply-To: <038601d645ad$18440ce0$48cc26a0$@vanpeborgh.eu> References: <038601d645ad$18440ce0$48cc26a0$@vanpeborgh.eu> Message-ID: Hi Peter, That is a stunning board, and in beautiful condition. The square cubes are transformers, most likely some sort of pulse transformer on the base of the transistor. A multimeter will tell you in quick form. Doug Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard - for this I apologise in advance - It's ok bec**** we don* nee* accu**** tex* to unde****** actu** mean***. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, Setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 6:14 AM Peter Van Peborgh via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > OK, now here are some pics that should be available to everybody. I hope. > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/h64tye8ecmPHQfJD7 > > Smells of (early) 1960s transistorized. > No helpful marking apart from > * "GATE JJ01" on SIDE A. (components). > * "C NT OL DATA" on side B (solder traces). > > Big transistors are Motorola "180376008". Also, any ideas what the "246 636 > B" boxes are, they have four legs? > > A curse on TinyURL and praise to Camiel Vanderhoven. > > peter > > From cctalk at snarc.net Thu Jun 18 18:14:08 2020 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 19:14:08 -0400 Subject: Future of classiccmp In-Reply-To: <000001d6458d$c022f4f0$4068ded0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d6458d$c022f4f0$4068ded0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > that relationship has become quite difficult lately. So much so, that I'm ready to just turn it off and walk away. I'm sorry, but I have reached the point in my life where that stress outweighs the benefits. > Throw in to the mix that for whatever reason - while I have dutifully taken care of this list and a lot of other related websites for probably 15+ years or more ... I think it's time for fresh eyes and attitudes to carry it forward. I hope no one begrudges me for after decades finally saying "it's time". I have enjoyed being of service. > Second, I do not wish to pass this off to someone who "has a server in their basement" or has spare space on a vps. While I appreciate these offers and the desire to help, I'm not sure you have full knowledge of what all is here. Putting it on a "PC in your basement" is not the environment this stuff requires. At the very least, asymmetric bandwidth (what most people have in their homes) is a non-starter. Sneaking it on to your company infrastructure isn't good either, as there is almost always a builtin "need to move this stuff soon" disruption in store. > Also, I am definitely not leaving the hobby; I just look forward to participating as an end-user instead of host. Just as a heads up at the same time I am looking to thin my herd; not because I've lost interest but because I want to gain focus. Jay: Thank you for all that you've done in this hobby! I left VCFed six months ago for (pretty much) the same four reasons as you cited above. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 03:25:46 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 09:25:46 +0100 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <01RM8M397OG691W09G@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8M397OG691W09G@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <3b7d01d64613$3b4cf330$b1e6d990$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan > via cctalk > Sent: 18 June 2020 23:11 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of > cctalk/cctech > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 2:42 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk > > wrote: > > > Thanks for your reply Paul. My eventual goal is to be able to use > > > the synchronous serial interface on a MicroVAX to connect to IBM > > > machines that only support bisync lines. I trimmed this because we seem to be missing the crux of clocks and why we need them! In async data we take our clock from the edge of the start bit, and we have a stop bit which is really there to stop characters running together. With sync we just have a stream of digital data and we use the clock to know when to sample it. There are no stop bits or start bits, and we use a synchronisation character at the start of each block to work out how the characters are positioned in the data stream. So we need clocks... Its been ages since I did this but looking here https://www.aggsoft.com/rs232-pinout-cable/RS232.htm I see we have a transmit clock output on pin 24, transmit clock input on 15 and RX clock input on 17. So if on checking with a scope I have clocks on 24, I would try linking 24 and 15 on one side to 17 on the other side. If you have only one clock running then that goes to 15 and 17 on both ends.... .... as suggested here:- https://www.synclink.com/nullmodem.html This assumes you have RS232 interfaces. If its X21 then eliminators are available on e-bay for a few pounds. Dave From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 19 04:49:51 2020 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 10:49:51 +0100 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board (Peter Van Peborgh) In-Reply-To: <20200619012243.08966275EA@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <038601d645ad$18440ce0$48cc26a0$@vanpeborgh.eu> <20200619012243.08966275EA@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <363cc4ea-2362-cc51-0c55-52127d8a9d4e@btinternet.com> Core memory driver board? On 19/06/2020 02:22, Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk wrote: > Remember buying boards like that at electronics surplus places in late > 60's but never knew where they came from.? Just used them as a cheap > source of parts.? Also suspect the black boxes are pulse transformers > although all of the pulse transformers I pulled off boards were > circular.? Never thought much then about where they came from and just > got ones with most transistors and diodes on them so could make DTL > logic gates from them.? Think a board like that might have gone for > $1-2 back then which was way cheaper than buying new transistors and > diodes in those days and TTL IC's were ridiculously expensive then. > > Boris Gimbarzevsky > >> OK, now here are some pics that should be available to everybody. I >> hope. >> >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/h64tye8ecmPHQfJD7 >> >> Smells of (early) 1960s transistorized. >> No helpful marking apart from >> *?????? "GATE JJ01" on SIDE A. (components). >> *?????? "C NT OL DATA" on side B (solder traces). >> >> Big transistors are Motorola "180376008". Also, any ideas what the >> "246 636 >> B" boxes are, they have four legs? >> >> A curse on TinyURL and praise to Camiel Vanderhoven. >> >> peter > > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Jun 19 05:21:56 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:21:56 +0200 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <74f13a66-fa21-2181-7e85-61386ecc5cea@dunnington.plus.com> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <901823AB-2BB6-469B-B3A2-F0B3517117CF@comcast.net> <74f13a66-fa21-2181-7e85-61386ecc5cea@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20200619102156.GA18483@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 12:21:14AM +0100, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > [...] Some of the UK banking systems like HOBS survived using viewdata that > way up to the end of the 1990s, and I still have at least a couple of 1275 > modems. Hobbyists are still running Viewdata BBSes. Here's one connected to the Internet and provided with a JavaScript client so you can log in and have a poke around: http://fish.ccl4.org/java/. Offering access to one's BBS via TCP/IP isn't really optional any more now that many of us no longer have suitable analogue POTS lines to plug our old modems into, what with a mobile being a better choice for most purposes. I think (HS)CSD might have carried over from GSM into 3G, and it's even possible that my tinpot telco would connect such a call, but the odds that I could convince my mobile to make the call is pretty much zero. How do you enter AT commands on an iPhone anyway? Also, I resent paying per minute for low-bandwidth phone calls when I've got unmetered VDSL. I would write Viewdata clients in the nostalgia wave of the late 1990s and early 2000s, as it was also a nice easy introduction into a new platform's graphics and I/O subsystems. Maybe I'll do one in WebAssembly for old time's sake. > The idea was to use 1200 for the transmission from central computer to > consumer, and the back channel for user responses/commands. Not many people > type faster than 7.5cps. That's 75WPM with the usual rule of thumb of six characters per word. I can copy-type at about 75-85WPM, which would interact badly with a small FIFO on a very basic terminal, what with that being an average and some words are typed at a faster rate. Fortunately, I've never suffered a Viewdata terminal that awful: the BBC Micro backed its 6850 UART and its 1-byte FIFO with a luxurious 192-byte software FIFO, for example. Having to stop for a sip of tea while the buffer drains isn't so terrible. Normally one would compose longer bits of text offline, of course, so that BT would get the smallest pound of flesh possible. Definitely a company with the "never mind the quality, feel the price" mentality, but that's all telcos for you. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Jun 19 05:07:23 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 11:07:23 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <7f2cd464-5fc2-9b4f-3faf-ed36498913ae@ntlworld.com> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM81TKMTXM91VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RM9BOJ9BCO91W079@beyondthepale.ie> Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 18/06/2020 14:06, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > > I have found the whole thing very confusing too.? My suspicion was also > > that they were pretty much the same thing but the DST32 had exernal > > connectors suitable for mounting in a MicroVAX 2000 while the DST32 had > > external connectors that could be mounted in a MicroVAX 3100. That is, > > until I also came across the preliminary version of EK-283AA-AD-001 > > which threw cold water on that theory.? Unless it was originally called > > the DSH32 and then renamed to DST32 for the MicroVAX 2000 or something... > > > I expect that the uVAX 2000 interface was around well before the uVAX > 3100 one. I suspect that the docs was wrong or that something got > renamed at some stage. If I ever frind my notebooks from the time I can > take a look. > I'd be very interested to know what the story was if you manage to locate those notebooks. > > > > > I was hoping to use VAX WANDD but I ended up having to install DECnet OSI > > on VMS 7.3.? Perhaps if I dig up an earlier VMS version, I can avoid > > using > > DECnet OSI? > > > If you further along it got renamed to DECnet-Plus ... would that help :-) > > I don't know when Phase IV support stopped for WANDD. DECnet-VAX > Extensions went out in the V5.4-3 timeframe IIRC. Certainly for a while > you have a choice and were not required to run DECnet/OSI. In fact the > only reason that DECnet-VAX Extensions shipped was (iirc) that PSI/WANDD > was ready and DECnet/OSI wasn't. > > > Anyway, pre VMS V6.0 I'm sure you can just pull the latest contemporary > WANDD kit off a VMS CD and you'll be fine. > I already tried extracting ZSDRIVER.EXE from the DECnet/OSI kit for VAX/VMS 7.3 and placing it in SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES but ZSA0: remained stubbornly offline until I installed the rest of DECnet/OSI and the LES$ACP_V30 process started. I think I have an old CD containing a WANDD kit somewhere but I can't seem to put a hand on it right now. I probably put it in a "safe place" :-( I was pleased to find that I have a grey DEC folder containing AA-LN26B-TE VAX WAN Device Drivers Installation Guide, Specifications and Programmer's Guide for VAX/VMS 5.0 Software Version: VAX Wide Area Network Device Drivers V1.1 First Printing July 1988 Revised, January 1989. I'd forgotten I had these! These manuals mention the DSV11 and DST32 but there is no reference to the DSH32 anywhere. The installation guide says the device driver for the DST32 is ZSDRIVER.EXE so this seems to suggest that the DST32 and DSH32 are the same thing or at least very similar. Maybe there was a difference of opinion between the hardware people and the software people as to what it should be called :-) The specifications manual says: "The DST32 is a single line interface for single board VAX systems. It provides RS-232-C, RS-442-A and RS-423-A connections to dial-up or leased synchronous communications lines and operates in both character-oriented and bit-stuffing mode. > > On the synch side the idea was to get away from having a set of (often > different) cables for each interface. Instead everything had the same > 50-pin connector and then you picked the appropriate cable for V.25 or > X.21 or whatever you needed. My DST32 has such a connector, as does your > DSH32. I expect that the DSV-11 also is the same. DECnis certainly is. > > > > > > and I also have two Nokia DS 60100 baseband modems, one with a V.35 > > interface card and one with an X.21 interface card.? When I hook up the > > former with the BC19F cable, I can get the lights on the modem to react > > when I try to access ZSA0: on the MicroVAX.? However, I can't get any > > reaction when I use the BC19C cable with the latter even when I jumper > > the modem to take account of the fewer signals available in X.21. It > > may be that the BC19C is meant for something other than the DSH/T32... > > > I don't remember the cable part numbers (although they will be in the > manuals) but if it plugs into the 50-pin connector then it should work. > I found details about many of the interface cables, including wiring diagrams in EK-DRT90-OM DEC WANrouter 90 Owner's Manual on the web and more stuff in EK-A0497-IN DEC WANserver 150 Installation/Owner's Guide. > > > > Anyway, this whole line of attack is fairly academic as the modems can > > only do 48kbps - 160kbps and the maximum for the DSH/T32 seems to be > > 19200bps. > > > > I'd be surprised if they don't work at up to 56k at least. Maybe not 64k > (I remember the DSV11 firmware engineer telling my that some extra work > had to be done to get one of the DSV11 modes to work properly at 64k > even in pathological cases, so maybe other, lower-end interfaces didn't > get the same love). > > > Above 64k would not have been a normal use case back in the day - I > don't have any data handy to check what should work though. > The specifications manual says that the maximum speed for the DST32 is 19200 bps (for HDLC or SDLC) or 9600 bps (for DDCMP) but worryingly doesn't list a speed for BISYNC which is what I want to do with it :-( It also says the supported line interfaces for the DST32 are: RS-232-C/V.24/V.28, RS-423-A/V.10/RS-449 and RS-422-A/V.11/RS-449 but not V.35 which seems strange because the only reaction I have got from it so far is using the V.35 interface cable. At least it suggests it should work with the V.24 cables when once I manage to come up with a suitable clock. Regards, Peter > > Antonio > > > > -- > Antonio Carlini > antonio at acarlini.com > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jun 19 07:03:31 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:03:31 -0400 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <01RM9BOJ9BCO91W079@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM81TKMTXM91VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM9BOJ9BCO91W079@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <545AF467-7346-46ED-934A-969C1E6AC44B@comcast.net> > On Jun 19, 2020, at 6:07 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > >> ... > > The specifications manual says that the maximum speed for the DST32 is > 19200 bps (for HDLC or SDLC) or 9600 bps (for DDCMP) but worryingly > doesn't list a speed for BISYNC which is what I want to do with it :-( > > It also says the supported line interfaces for the DST32 are: > RS-232-C/V.24/V.28, RS-423-A/V.10/RS-449 and RS-422-A/V.11/RS-449 but not > V.35 which seems strange because the only reaction I have got from it so > far is using the V.35 interface cable. At least it suggests it should work > with the V.24 cables when once I manage to come up with a suitable clock. The interfaces should all work about the same, for short cables. RS232 isn't rated as high as the others but if you're just running a 6 foot cable across the bench that isn't much of a problem. Interesting that DDCMP is rated lower. I wonder why that would be. If the device handles the data CRC, the software would do the header CRC but that is easy. I'd expect 9600 or so for BISYNC. I forgot how CRC works -- are the escape characters in BISYNC included in the CRC, or not? If not then you're probably looking at software CRC. Still, 9600 baud with software CRC is doable for a J-11, so it should be for a MicroVAX as well. paul From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 07:50:54 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:50:54 +0200 Subject: Origin of 3-D printing (again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 at 07:27, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > Back in 2017, I posted something about seeing a possible first-ever > reference to the idea of 3-D printing in a 1951 issue of Galaxy Science > Fiction magazine. > > I stumbled over an even earlier one tonight... > > The September, 1941, issue of Astounding Science Fiction magazine has a > story called "Elsewhere" by Caleb Saunders (a pseudonym of Robert A. > Heinlein). On page 118 we see: > > [They used] a single general type of machine to manufacture almost > anything. They fed into it a plan which Igor called, for want of a better > term, the blueprints. It was, in fact, a careful scale model of the device > to be manufactured; the machine retooled itself and produced the artifact. > A three-dimensional pantograph, Igor called the machine, vaguely and > inaccurately. One of them was, at that moment, molding the bodies of > fighting planes out. of plastic, all in one piece and in one operation. That is really quite remarkable! Good find! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jun 19 09:02:58 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 10:02:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PLATO V Terminal Message-ID: <20200619140258.0543A18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > airfight and any number of other multi-user games -- a thing made > popular by PLATO and possibly originated there. What was the date on that? Multi-player MazeWar on the Imlacs/ITS at MIT was running before 1976 (I played it about then), but I don't recall exactly when it first ran (before my time). Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jun 19 09:07:06 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 10:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 Message-ID: <20200619140706.16FFF18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Camiel Vanderhoeven > I know Intel made the in-4011 for the PDP-11, but I never saw a picture > of it. Was it UNIBUS memory, or what? It doesn't seem to be in that table of early Intel products. BTW, speaking of Intel PDP-11 memory, I have this: http://gunkies.org/wiki/File:IN-1611.jpg QBUS Intel memory board; hven't tried to get it running, though. Noel From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 08:21:18 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:21:18 -0500 Subject: Future of classiccmp In-Reply-To: <000d01d64592$26f069c0$74d13d40$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d6458d$c022f4f0$4068ded0$@classiccmp.org> <000d01d64592$26f069c0$74d13d40$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: You forgot to mention the freenode irc channel as well Sent from my iPad > On Jun 18, 2020, at 12:01 PM, jwest--- via cctech wrote: > > The period of me making decisions about the list is coming to an end, but based on all the posts I just caught up with here's some thoughts: > > I would be predisposed to handing it to someone that intends to continue the mailing list format. We already have a very active discord group (which works fantastic for posting pics with your posts), so I see little reason to move to a web based format for this list. Most of us are here cause we prefer the email format. Those who don't - use the discord server, those who like both - use both ? > > Picture attachments have been a shortcoming here, there's times when it would be really nice. There are also situations where its likely to be abused especially in the eyes of those who prefer the email format. I would suggest either allow pic posts but only if 1000% on-topic, and even better yet, only allow pics if the mailing list automatically stores them somewhere and only puts a link to the pic in the email. That way, the email stays text only, and users that want to see the pic can. Another approach is maybe 'if you need to post pics, do it on the discord'. One or the other, but the email list should stay a text email service IMHO. > > I did not like the list splitting (cctalk/cctech) when it was done, and still don't. I have intended to rejoin the lists into one list for the past few years and just never got around to it. I will be asking whoever winds up getting the list to do the following tasks as part of the agreement: 1) Rejoin the lists, 2) completely straighten out the archives. Get all the missing stuff, make it all processed and stored in the same way (downloadable archives or text scannable online), and automated. I am embarrassed by how I have let the archives degenerate, but they are still fix-up-able. Whoever takes on the list needs to be prepared to do this as well. > > > > > > > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 09:43:56 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 10:43:56 -0400 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <3b7d01d64613$3b4cf330$b1e6d990$@gmail.com> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8M397OG691W09G@beyondthepale.ie> <3b7d01d64613$3b4cf330$b1e6d990$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 4:26 AM Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > Its been ages since I did this but looking here > > https://www.aggsoft.com/rs232-pinout-cable/RS232.htm > > I see we have a transmit clock output on pin 24, transmit clock input on 15 and RX clock input on 17. > So if on checking with a scope I have clocks on 24, I would try linking 24 and 15 on one side to 17 on the other side. > If you have only one clock running then that goes to 15 and 17 on both ends.... None of the devices I worked with in the 80s and 90s had clock available on pin 24. I'm not saying none exist, but they weren't around in the era I was doing this. -ethan From lars at nocrew.org Fri Jun 19 10:34:23 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:34:23 +0000 Subject: PLATO V Terminal In-Reply-To: <20200619140258.0543A18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa via cctalk's message of "Fri, 19 Jun 2020 10:02:58 -0400 (EDT)") References: <20200619140258.0543A18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7wo8pfgjcw.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa wrote: > > Paul Koning wrote: > > airfight and any number of other multi-user games -- a thing made > > popular by PLATO and possibly originated there. > > What was the date on that? Multi-player MazeWar on the Imlacs/ITS at > MIT was running before 1976 (I played it about then), but I don't > recall exactly when it first ran (before my time). I think Greg Thompson said he brought Maze to MIT in 1974. Wikipedia says 1973. The game was first developed at NASA Ames in 1972. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Jun 19 10:36:41 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 17:36:41 +0200 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20200619153641.GA22300@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 10:28:05PM -0400, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: [...] > And sometimes, a picture really is worth 1000 words. But pictures also consume magnitudes-of-order more resources than a thousand words, and should be used rather more judiciously than they are. > A tiny SVG diagram in the middle of a description can do wonders. Did your > physics textbook pull all the diagrams out to an appendix, just leaving a > reference in the text? No it didn't. That would have been inconvenient and > unnecessary. Except for those who choose otherwise, we all have the > capability to view mail that presents like any other printed matter. My physics textbooks had editors who ensured that the text made sense and the images were useful to the reader. I'm sorry if you went to a bad school where your physics textbooks were similar to the vast majority of email. > It's time to adopt a platform that can handle modern mail. Some may still > choose a degraded experience, but everyone is entitled to their own fetish. Any old mail client can read "modern mail": MIME is designed to be backwards-compatible and the text parts readable on non-MIME clients. One quickly learns the ASCII renderings of important non-ASCII characters after using such a client for a while. (How do I know this? I still use trn, which doesn't understand character sets at all. There are *no* "modern" newsreaders, apart from the occasional kitchen-sink monstrosity which does nothing well.) The "no attachments" rule on many mailing lists is not a Luddite thing, but a quality filter. There is a strong inverse correlation between those who feel that they can't communicate without images and fancy text formatting, and those who have something useful or interesting to say. Less is more, and all that. Images and HTML formatting also present an accessibility problem. At least one of the posters to this list gives a few "tells" in the way they write which suggest they are blind. Good luck doing text-to-speech on a JPEG. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 10:58:45 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 16:58:45 +0100 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8M397OG691W09G@beyondthepale.ie> <3b7d01d64613$3b4cf330$b1e6d990$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3d4701d64652$83461880$89d24980$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks > Sent: 19 June 2020 15:44 > To: Dave Wade ; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of > cctalk/cctech > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 4:26 AM Dave Wade via cctalk > wrote: > > Its been ages since I did this but looking here > >DPV11 > > https://www.aggsoft.com/rs232-pinout-cable/RS232.htm > > > > I see we have a transmit clock output on pin 24, transmit clock input on 15 > and RX clock input on 17. > > So if on checking with a scope I have clocks on 24, I would try linking 24 and > 15 on one side to 17 on the other side. > > If you have only one clock running then that goes to 15 and 17 on both > ends.... > > None of the devices I worked with in the 80s and 90s had clock available on > pin 24. I'm not saying none exist, but they weren't around in the era I was > doing this. > Ethan, Well some do, some don't. In general we avoided using it because we probably wanted to set other signals, However the first card for which I could find documents, the QBUS DPV11 has a configurable clock on pin 24 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EK-DPV11-UM-001_Aug80.pdf page 2-5 and 2-7. Its called "null modem" but you can see its connected back to the clocks so you can test the interface. Dave > -ethan From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 11:15:53 2020 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 13:15:53 -0300 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8M397OG691W09G@beyondthepale.ie> <3b7d01d64613$3b4cf330$b1e6d990$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <917909c2-2ba5-06b3-400e-4a151c693a05@gmail.com> On 2020-06-19 11:43 a.m., Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 4:26 AM Dave Wade via cctalk > wrote: >> Its been ages since I did this but looking here >> >> https://www.aggsoft.com/rs232-pinout-cable/RS232.htm >> >> I see we have a transmit clock output on pin 24, transmit clock input on 15 and RX clock input on 17. >> So if on checking with a scope I have clocks on 24, I would try linking 24 and 15 on one side to 17 on the other side. >> If you have only one clock running then that goes to 15 and 17 on both ends.... > None of the devices I worked with in the 80s and 90s had clock > available on pin 24. I'm not saying none exist, but they weren't > around in the era I was doing this. > > -ethan On the machines I worked on it was an option, but I never saw it used as the modem? clocking was usually? synchronized across the common carrier's network making it much more reliable.? Most customers also used modems provided by the common carrier, which was a good thing as it was pretty easy to determine where the fault was.? When one of our modems was used trouble shooting was more difficult, but I do recall discussing with the common carrier that receive level was too low, and having the deny that was possible only to have the level come up while still on the phone with them. Paul. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 11:34:37 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 18:34:37 +0200 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <20200619153641.GA22300@mooli.org.uk> References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <20200619153641.GA22300@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 at 17:36, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > There are *no* "modern" newsreaders, > apart from the occasional kitchen-sink monstrosity which does nothing well.) There was... https://panic.com/blog/the-future-of-unison/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jun 19 11:43:20 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:43:20 -0400 Subject: PLATO V Terminal In-Reply-To: <7wo8pfgjcw.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <20200619140258.0543A18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7wo8pfgjcw.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: > On Jun 19, 2020, at 11:34 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> Paul Koning wrote: >>> airfight and any number of other multi-user games -- a thing made >>> popular by PLATO and possibly originated there. >> >> What was the date on that? Multi-player MazeWar on the Imlacs/ITS at >> MIT was running before 1976 (I played it about then), but I don't >> recall exactly when it first ran (before my time). > > I think Greg Thompson said he brought Maze to MIT in 1974. Wikipedia > says 1973. The game was first developed at NASA Ames in 1972. Ok, chances are that predates PLATO MUGs by 2-3 years. paul From Rice43 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 19 12:36:20 2020 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 18:36:20 +0100 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <20200619140706.16FFF18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200619140706.16FFF18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jun 19, 2020, at 3:07 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > BTW, speaking of Intel PDP-11 memory, I have this: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/File:IN-1611.jpg > > QBUS Intel memory board; hven't tried to get it running, though. > > Noel > I have a similar M8044 DD PDP-11 QBUS board populated with Intel C2117 gold-ceramic chips. Much like you, i?ve not tried powering it up. Intel memory chips were used in quite a few QBUS RAM boards. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Jun 19 12:40:21 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 18:40:21 +0100 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <01RM9BOJ9BCO91W079@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM81TKMTXM91VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM9BOJ9BCO91W079@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <87c3a8ed-fb08-6efc-b80a-6defd699d132@ntlworld.com> On 19/06/2020 11:07, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > I already tried extracting ZSDRIVER.EXE from the DECnet/OSI kit for > VAX/VMS 7.3 > and placing it in SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES but ZSA0: remained stubbornly > offline > until I installed the rest of DECnet/OSI and the LES$ACP_V30 process > started. > I think I have an old CD containing a WANDD kit somewhere but I can't > seem to > put a hand on it right now.? I probably put it in a "safe place" :-( I think messing with the kits isn't likely to produce a working system. You need more than the driver to make everything work. At the very least LES (Layered Environment Services) has to be available. > These manuals mention the DSV11 and DST32 but there is no reference to > the > DSH32 anywhere.? The installation guide says the device driver for the > DST32 > is ZSDRIVER.EXE so this seems to suggest that the DST32 and DSH32 are the > same thing or at least very similar.? Maybe there was a difference of > opinion > between the hardware people and the software people as to what it > should be > called :-) I've found some notes that suggest that the DST32 and DSH32 both use the same driver (ZSDRIVER, as you've found). The other "busless" one was the DSW21/DSW41/DSW42. I can't find a WANDD SPD either locally nor online, but (iirc) V1.2 was Phase IV and certainly ran on V5.5-2. A bunch of stuff changed radically in V6.0 so if there was a Phase IV release for V6 then it would almost certainly have been post-V1.2. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Jun 19 12:40:33 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 10:40:33 -0700 Subject: Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02e25ed7-2a66-7edc-a4de-d350978c79ee@snowmoose.com> On 6/17/20 1:27 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jun 17, 2020, at 3:25 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> >> https://archive.org/details/FarewellEtaoinShrdlu >> >> 28min documentary on the last ever edition of the NY Times to be >> printed using hot metal -- before they switched to what are now a >> quite choice assortment of late-'70s minicomputers. I think I spotted >> a PDP, a Data General and some IBM device, but I am no expert in this >> era. >> >> As a veteran reader of Fredric Brown, especially "the Enchanted >> Linotype", I have been using ETAOIN SHRDLU to win at Hangman for many >> years... but I'd never seen one working before. It all still seems >> like magic to me. > > They should be fairly easy to find in printing musea. > A friend of mine who was in Seattle collected this stuff. He had a couple Linotype/Intertype machines, a press, and lots and lots of magazines of type. It was set up in his garage and he would give demos of it in action. It was interesting how it worked. Unfortunately, he had to move out of the area for work and moving that stuff to another state was not feasible, so another local collector got it all. There was another documentary on them, Linotype: The Film (https://linotypefilm.com). alan From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jun 19 12:43:04 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 13:43:04 -0400 Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8M397OG691W09G@beyondthepale.ie> <3b7d01d64613$3b4cf330$b1e6d990$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <28C5E3EE-2CF6-4C17-B78C-B3174D6CA117@comcast.net> > On Jun 19, 2020, at 10:43 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 4:26 AM Dave Wade via cctalk > wrote: >> Its been ages since I did this but looking here >> >> https://www.aggsoft.com/rs232-pinout-cable/RS232.htm >> >> I see we have a transmit clock output on pin 24, transmit clock input on 15 and RX clock input on 17. >> So if on checking with a scope I have clocks on 24, I would try linking 24 and 15 on one side to 17 on the other side. >> If you have only one clock running then that goes to 15 and 17 on both ends.... > > None of the devices I worked with in the 80s and 90s had clock > available on pin 24. I'm not saying none exist, but they weren't > around in the era I was doing this. I had the same reaction. The sync serial devices I know use modem-supplied clocks. That's why there is such a device as a "modem eliminator", which is different from the familiar asynchronous "null modem". A modem eliminator is essentially a null modem plus a clock source along the lines discussed a day or two ago. If you had a sync device that had the ability to send a local clock out, you could make a sync null modem that would just be wires, as an async null modem is. Perhaps this is something RS232 standardized but that wasn't adopted in the real world. paul From rar at syssrc.com Fri Jun 19 13:06:38 2020 From: rar at syssrc.com (rar) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 18:06:38 +0000 Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu In-Reply-To: <02e25ed7-2a66-7edc-a4de-d350978c79ee@snowmoose.com> References: <02e25ed7-2a66-7edc-a4de-d350978c79ee@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: We have a working Linotype at the System Source Computer Museum in Hunt Valley Maryland. Open now only by appointment with a maximum of two masked visitors due to COVID https://museum.syssrc.com Bob Roswell -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Alan Perry via cctalk Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 1:41 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu On 6/17/20 1:27 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jun 17, 2020, at 3:25 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> >> https://archive.org/details/FarewellEtaoinShrdlu >> >> 28min documentary on the last ever edition of the NY Times to be >> printed using hot metal -- before they switched to what are now a >> quite choice assortment of late-'70s minicomputers. I think I spotted >> a PDP, a Data General and some IBM device, but I am no expert in this >> era. >> >> As a veteran reader of Fredric Brown, especially "the Enchanted >> Linotype", I have been using ETAOIN SHRDLU to win at Hangman for many >> years... but I'd never seen one working before. It all still seems >> like magic to me. > > They should be fairly easy to find in printing musea. > A friend of mine who was in Seattle collected this stuff. He had a couple Linotype/Intertype machines, a press, and lots and lots of magazines of type. It was set up in his garage and he would give demos of it in action. It was interesting how it worked. Unfortunately, he had to move out of the area for work and moving that stuff to another state was not feasible, so another local collector got it all. There was another documentary on them, Linotype: The Film (https://linotypefilm.com). alan From lars at nocrew.org Fri Jun 19 13:32:44 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 18:32:44 +0000 Subject: PLATO V Terminal In-Reply-To: (Paul Koning's message of "Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:43:20 -0400") References: <20200619140258.0543A18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7wo8pfgjcw.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wk102hpo3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Paul Koning wrote: >> I think Greg Thompson said he brought Maze to MIT in 1974. Wikipedia >> says 1973. The game was first developed at NASA Ames in 1972. > Ok, chances are that predates PLATO MUGs by 2-3 years. Spasim from 1974 is usually regarded as contemporary with Maze. I'm not so sure about that 1973 dating; after all it's Wikipedia. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jun 19 14:06:57 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:06:57 -0400 Subject: PLATO V Terminal In-Reply-To: <7wk102hpo3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <20200619140258.0543A18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7wo8pfgjcw.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wk102hpo3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <2C55BDC6-0B61-4D1E-A2AD-EF9A64E116FF@comcast.net> > On Jun 19, 2020, at 2:32 PM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > Paul Koning wrote: >>> I think Greg Thompson said he brought Maze to MIT in 1974. Wikipedia >>> says 1973. The game was first developed at NASA Ames in 1972. >> Ok, chances are that predates PLATO MUGs by 2-3 years. > > Spasim from 1974 is usually regarded as contemporary with Maze. > I'm not so sure about that 1973 dating; after all it's Wikipedia. Yes, I can confirm Jim Bowery's spasim was created in November 1974. And I'm fairly sure it wasn't the first MUG. It was actually rather ambitious for the time because it has a full 3d model, as opposed to some other games that were more like 2d (or stack of 2d, as in a number of the "dungeon and dragons" games). I just checked the history section of the "dnd" game on Cyber1; it makes it pretty clear that MU versions existed in 1974. "airfight" is dated 1976. paul From camiel at vaxbarn.com Fri Jun 19 10:10:22 2020 From: camiel at vaxbarn.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 17:10:22 +0200 Subject: : Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973 In-Reply-To: <20200619140706.16FFF18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200619140706.16FFF18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6A464AD4-B588-4316-A08D-3CE02BDF02DC@vaxbarn.com> UNIBUS. Cable plugged into a UNIBUS slot connected to an external box with up to 128Kwords. > On Jun 19, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Camiel Vanderhoeven > >> I know Intel made the in-4011 for the PDP-11, but I never saw a picture >> of it. > > Was it UNIBUS memory, or what? It doesn't seem to be in that table of early > Intel products. > > BTW, speaking of Intel PDP-11 memory, I have this: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/File:IN-1611.jpg > > QBUS Intel memory board; hven't tried to get it running, though. > > Noel > From macro at linux-mips.org Fri Jun 19 14:31:45 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 20:31:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <20200619153641.GA22300@mooli.org.uk> References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <20200619153641.GA22300@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jun 2020, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > It's time to adopt a platform that can handle modern mail. Some may still > > choose a degraded experience, but everyone is entitled to their own fetish. > > Any old mail client can read "modern mail": MIME is designed to be > backwards-compatible and the text parts readable on non-MIME clients. One > quickly learns the ASCII renderings of important non-ASCII characters after > using such a client for a while. (How do I know this? I still use trn, which > doesn't understand character sets at all. There are *no* "modern" newsreaders, > apart from the occasional kitchen-sink monstrosity which does nothing well.) I guess depending on how you define "modern". For instance (AL)PINE does handle UTF-8 (your UI might not however, if you run say on a VT220), which fulfils my definition of modernity, and it happens to have handled NNTP as well, since time immemorial. I have stopped participating with Usenet due to the lack of NNTP servers I could access, but I used to use PINE in this manner for years, and it did the right thing there. I continue using ALPINE for e-mail and I'm quite happy with the stuff it keeps away from me. An occasional PDF attachment I can deal with. And I can pipe a Git commit being read directly to `git am' with no fuss and no need to bother if it has been encoded in any way for transport. > The "no attachments" rule on many mailing lists is not a Luddite thing, but a > quality filter. There is a strong inverse correlation between those who feel > that they can't communicate without images and fancy text formatting, and those > who have something useful or interesting to say. Less is more, and all that. Sure, there's always `uuencode' when you do need to post that non-text piece (which I guess will keep the eyes of Luddites away from it too). Maciej From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Jun 19 13:59:23 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 19:59:23 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <3d4701d64652$83461880$89d24980$@gmail.com> References: <01RM7TCBQR6091VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8BYTKCF491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <01RM8M397OG691W09G@beyondthepale.ie> <3b7d01d64613$3b4cf330$b1e6d990$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01RM9S7E05RC91W079@beyondthepale.ie> Dave Wade wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ethan Dicks > > Sent: 19 June 2020 15:44 > > To: Dave Wade ; General Discussion: On-Topic > > and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of > > cctalk/cctech > > > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 4:26 AM Dave Wade via cctalk > > wrote: > > > Its been ages since I did this but looking here > > >DPV11 > > > https://www.aggsoft.com/rs232-pinout-cable/RS232.htm > > > > > > I see we have a transmit clock output on pin 24, transmit clock input on 15 > > and RX clock input on 17. > > > So if on checking with a scope I have clocks on 24, I would try linking 24 and > > 15 on one side to 17 on the other side. > > > If you have only one clock running then that goes to 15 and 17 on both > > ends.... > > > > None of the devices I worked with in the 80s and 90s had clock available on > > pin 24. I'm not saying none exist, but they weren't around in the era I was > > doing this. > > > > Ethan, > Well some do, some don't. In general we avoided using it because we probably > wanted to set other signals, > However the first card for which I could find documents, the QBUS DPV11 has > a configurable clock on pin 24 > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EK-DPV11-UM-001_Aug80.pdf > > page 2-5 and 2-7. Its called "null modem" but you can see its connected back > to the clocks so you can test the interface. > I took a look at pin 24 on my setup and it has a steady negative voltage so it is getting driven at least. It looks very likely that it can be configured to generate a clock signal for loopback tests. Before figuring out how to do that, I had a go at making a clock from a 555. The random bunch of components I grabbed produced a roughly 600Hz output according to the frequency range on my multimeter and it is probably far from square. I decided to live dangerously, skip the MAX232 and connect the output of the 555 directly to the clock signal inputs. Along with a birds nest of crossover connections, this allowed the example programs to successfully write and read some data over the line! Next, I tried starting up HUJI-NJE. Initially, the link failed to connect because one end wasn't listening when the other end was sending. However, I found that if I started both ends at more or less the same time, the link managed to connect successfully. It looks like I need to tweak the handshaking crossovers so that this works more reliably. I suspect the meaning of the lack of support for "BISYNC" in the DST32 may be that I don't get the ability to generate the bisync CRCs in the hardware. By coincidence, I was involved in a thread on generating CRCs for bisync links on another mailing list recently so I am now fairly well versed in how to do this in software. Many thanks to everyone for your help with this project, especially Antonio, Ethan, Paul and Dave. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > Dave From pat at vax11.net Fri Jun 19 14:40:11 2020 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:40:11 -0400 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <20200619153641.GA22300@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 3:31 PM Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Sure, there's always `uuencode' when you do need to post that non-text > piece (which I guess will keep the eyes of Luddites away from it too). > Or an http, https, ftp, or gopher url to somewhere else hosting the image. Pat From macro at linux-mips.org Fri Jun 19 15:09:44 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 21:09:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <20200619153641.GA22300@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jun 2020, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > > Sure, there's always `uuencode' when you do need to post that non-text > > piece (which I guess will keep the eyes of Luddites away from it too). > > > > Or an http, https, ftp, or gopher url to somewhere else hosting the image. Well, not everyone can afford to host their own site, for various reasons, and if hosting externally you have to agree to T&C's you may not necessarily be happy about. Maciej From bob at jfcl.com Fri Jun 19 14:24:55 2020 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:24:55 -0700 Subject: Fixing an RK8E .... Message-ID: <002401d6466f$5074bbb0$f15e3310$@com> It appears that my RK8E has a problem - it fails the diskless control test with .R DHRKAE.DG SR= 0000 COMMAND REGISTER ERROR PC:1160 GD:0000 CM:0001 DHRKAE FAILED PC:6726 AC:0000 MQ:7777 FL:0000 WAITING Ok, maybe a bad bit in the command register so I'll check it out. But then it dawns on me - how do you work on this thing? It's three boards connected with "over the top" connectors - you can't use a module extender on it. Worse, the M7105 Major Registers board is the middle one of the stack! Is there some secret to working on this thing? Has anybody fixed one? Any suggestions? I hadn't thought about it before, but the KK8E CPU would have the same problem. Fingers crossed that one never dies... Bob From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jun 19 14:31:16 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:31:16 -0700 Subject: Fixing an RK8E .... In-Reply-To: <002401d6466f$5074bbb0$f15e3310$@com> References: <002401d6466f$5074bbb0$f15e3310$@com> Message-ID: <8b6ae36e73b810efcebec90fd325d53cd2b6e9b3.camel@shiresoft.com> On Fri, 2020-06-19 at 12:24 -0700, Robert Armstrong via cctech wrote: > It appears that my RK8E has a problem - it fails the diskless > control test > with > > .R DHRKAE.DG > SR= 0000 > > COMMAND REGISTER ERROR > PC:1160 GD:0000 CM:0001 > DHRKAE FAILED PC:6726 AC:0000 MQ:7777 FL:0000 > WAITING > > Ok, maybe a bad bit in the command register so I'll check it > out. But then > it dawns on me - how do you work on this thing? It's three boards > connected > with "over the top" connectors - you can't use a module extender on > it. > Worse, the M7105 Major Registers board is the middle one of the > stack! Is > there some secret to working on this thing? Has anybody fixed > one? Any > suggestions? > > I hadn't thought about it before, but the KK8E CPU would have the > same > problem. Fingers crossed that one never dies... > I seem to recall that there were some "special" (read unobtanium) over the top connectors that permitted one of the boards in a board set to be up on an extender. TTFN - Guy From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 14:43:24 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:43:24 -0700 Subject: Fixing an RK8E .... In-Reply-To: <002401d6466f$5074bbb0$f15e3310$@com> References: <002401d6466f$5074bbb0$f15e3310$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 12:24 PM Robert Armstrong via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > It appears that my RK8E has a problem - it fails the diskless control > test > with > > .R DHRKAE.DG > SR= 0000 > > COMMAND REGISTER ERROR > PC:1160 GD:0000 CM:0001 > DHRKAE FAILED PC:6726 AC:0000 MQ:7777 FL:0000 > WAITING > > Ok, maybe a bad bit in the command register so I'll check it out. But then > it dawns on me - how do you work on this thing? It's three boards > connected > with "over the top" connectors - you can't use a module extender on it. > Worse, the M7105 Major Registers board is the middle one of the stack! Is > there some secret to working on this thing? Has anybody fixed one? Any > suggestions? > I did some debugging on mine with two quad-height extenders and one half-height (used upside down). In such a way you can raise up two of the boards in back (on the quad extenders) with the one in front installed normally but with the half-height extender upside-down and plugged into the top connectors, so the edge fingers of the extender plug into the top blocks. Yes, it's ugly, and it only gains you access to half of the board you're trying to poke at. Building some sort of ribbon cables to substitute in for the top blocks/upside-down extender would be more, uh, flexible, but I was fortunate that what I needed to look at was on the unobscured side. - Josh > > I hadn't thought about it before, but the KK8E CPU would have the same > problem. Fingers crossed that one never dies... > > Bob > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 19 15:35:30 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 13:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <20200619153641.GA22300@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: >> Or an http, https, ftp, or gopher url to somewhere else hosting the image. On Fri, 19 Jun 2020, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: > Well, not everyone can afford to host their own site, for various > reasons, and if hosting externally you have to agree to T&C's you may not > necessarily be happy about. I thought that it was generally agreed that we were talking about a "files" section on the server(s) hosting the list. That would have a lower resource requirement than including every attachment within every email. (AND them being replicated indefinitely by everybody who doesn't trim their posts) From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Fri Jun 19 16:19:50 2020 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:19:50 -0700 Subject: Fixing an RK8E .... In-Reply-To: <002401d6466f$5074bbb0$f15e3310$@com> References: <002401d6466f$5074bbb0$f15e3310$@com> Message-ID: On 6/19/2020 12:24 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > Ok, maybe a bad bit in the command register so I'll check it out. But then > it dawns on me - how do you work on this thing? It's three boards connected > with "over the top" connectors - you can't use a module extender on it. > Worse, the M7105 Major Registers board is the middle one of the stack! Is > there some secret to working on this thing? Has anybody fixed one? Any > suggestions? > > I hadn't thought about it before, but the KK8E CPU would have the same > problem. Fingers crossed that one never dies... Jack Rubin has worked on this problem a fair bit, and his solution: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?47821-DEC-extender-adapter-for-over-the-top-OMNIBUS-boards Basically he's found a compatible edge connector, and made a little PCB that interfaces it to a a ribbon cable. A couple of those per cable and you are all set. You may want to contact him about acquiring the female edge connectors, as they can only be ordered in bulk. (It might be my turn to order them, if he's out.) Vince From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Jun 19 19:10:31 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 20:10:31 -0400 Subject: New drive for my 11/83.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92107a23-9555-aa3b-ccd2-834df75bc56d@alembic.crystel.com> Follow-up: Drive is working well and now has a real virgin install of M+ 4.6 on it. I also was able to make a TK50 backup tape of it, and even remembered how to make BRU64K bootable on a RX01 floppy so I can restore it :-) Next step will be to get the 383mb Wren VI disk up and going. ESDI seems to be pretty darn quick, if that works I might stop there or pick up an 8760 drive for 700mb of storage. Far cry from the dual RM02's I used to work with back in the day, but it does seem to work well.... C On 6/9/2020 11:46 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Picked up a CDC 94166 ESDI disk on Ebay last week, arrived and sure > enough it works. No errors either, so I can now give my 30+ year old > Fujitsu 2322 a rest and load up rsx11m+ instead of 11/m 4.2 > > After formatting it on the MTI controller (MQD13) I set the first > partition to 30mb and loaded up my RT11 5.7 backup from the TK50 onto it > with no issues. > > Productive. If I can find my DEQNA and an AUI to wireless adapter I > could get this thing up on the net..... From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Jun 19 19:37:28 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 20:37:28 -0400 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <67fb491e-d203-a710-f40b-630e7254d3f1@e-bbes.com> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> <6a805c89-3cfd-1621-aa31-ace5f152d376@alembic.crystel.com> <67fb491e-d203-a710-f40b-630e7254d3f1@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4f54f01a-a4d2-1ec8-cf79-2b725ffa7154@alembic.crystel.com> Yes, there was D and F, and F and G versions. Everything else was emulated slowly. Putt putt it was.... On 6/8/2020 3:26 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2020-06-08 11:55, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> 4) The 11/730 could emulate pdp11 instructions, the MV1 could not. Come >> to think of it I think the 730's floating point could do D,F,G,H while >> the MV1 could only do D,F,G. > > IIRC, there were two versions of the MV I board sets with different > floating points? > From boris at summitclinic.com Fri Jun 19 21:05:29 2020 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 18:05:29 -0800 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <20200619153641.GA22300@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20200620020535.9490A27479@mx1.ezwind.net> Agree that current mailing list format is best as simple, low bandwidth and can always post links to images or other large files. I still use Eudora as my email client and have text only emails. Seems to perplex a lot of people I deal with when I can't read their emails, but it seems somewhat wastefull to use 1-2 Mb to send a message that only needs 200 bytes at most (once one strips off all zero-information fluff from the email). Run my own mailserver as well so can email myself massive attachments when email is only way of getting data off a remote machine. Images take up a lot of space and are best dealt with via links. I've run my own webserver/ftpserver since 1999 and find that's the easiest way of sharing large files with people. While it's nice having high resolution photos like those that Samsung phones creat, they're in the 3-5 Mb size range. If I need to put a lot of photos on a web page, I'll use the free Photo Studio program (written by John Hawkins) which creates a web page with a series of thumbnails with full image available by clicking on thumbnail and can set size of thumbnail image. Rather old, but works fine for simple web pages where all one wants to do is serve up a set of images. Remember 15 years ago that online documentation was sparse but have found most DEC manuals are online and C64 stuff a lot easier to find than it used to be. Being rather paranoid, I've downloaded manuals for all machines I have and keep a duplicate copy of everything. Not sure how many people are on cctalk/cctech, but keeping everything text only would be best way of minimizing bandwidth for whoever hosts it, Boris Gimbarzevsky >On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 3:31 PM Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk < >cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Sure, there's always `uuencode' when you do need to post that non-text > > piece (which I guess will keep the eyes of Luddites away from it too). > > > >Or an http, https, ftp, or gopher url to somewhere else hosting the image. > >Pat From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri Jun 19 21:06:36 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 19:06:36 -0700 Subject: CSPI SC-3XL and SC-4XL documentation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It looks like what I?m looking for from CSPI (aka CSP, Inc.) is the ?SuperKit? board support, function, and RPC library for the SuperCard SC-3XL and SC-4XL, along with their documentation. There are mentions of it in the Wayback Machine for http://www.cspi.com/ and the vendor is still around, but there?s obviously no mention anywhere on the current web site of this stuff, and I doubt contacting their support would do any good? Does anyone have more detail? Or do I have to reverse-engineer any ROMs that happen to be on these boards? ? Chris From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 19 22:27:14 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 20:27:14 -0700 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <20200620020535.9490A27479@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <20200619153641.GA22300@mooli.org.uk> <20200620020535.9490A27479@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <90f04918-0fff-2345-dbe6-e49c0f68c069@bitsavers.org> > Images take up a lot of space and are best dealt with via links. Which rot over time. If you're going to create a permanent archive, you need to archive any attachments as well. http://www.vcfed.org/forum is a perfect example of messages full of link rot. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 19 22:42:28 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 20:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <90f04918-0fff-2345-dbe6-e49c0f68c069@bitsavers.org> References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <20200619153641.GA22300@mooli.org.uk> <20200620020535.9490A27479@mx1.ezwind.net> <90f04918-0fff-2345-dbe6-e49c0f68c069@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >> Images take up a lot of space and are best dealt with via links. On Fri, 19 Jun 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Which rot over time. > If you're going to create a permanent archive, you need to archive any > attachments as well. > http://www.vcfed.org/forum is a perfect example of messages full of link rot. We need, or at least want, to handle BOTH. Long-term, "permanent" content, as well as the casual "What is this? here's what it looks like" I have no idea whether it is practical to handle those the same, or differently. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Jun 19 22:46:13 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 23:46:13 -0400 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <90f04918-0fff-2345-dbe6-e49c0f68c069@bitsavers.org> References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <20200619153641.GA22300@mooli.org.uk> <20200620020535.9490A27479@mx1.ezwind.net> <90f04918-0fff-2345-dbe6-e49c0f68c069@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <507bf8f7-da2b-f500-11a0-228057ba711f@telegraphics.com.au> On 2020-06-19 11:27 p.m., Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> Images take up a lot of space and are best dealt with via links. > > Which rot over time. > > If you're going to create a permanent archive, you need to archive any > attachments as well. > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum is a perfect example of messages full of link > rot. > Yes, we could have learned from the fact that Photobucket and dozens of other image hosting services chosen arbitrarily by users have disappeared, leaving forums full of posts without context, often making them useless. --Toby From bob at jfcl.com Fri Jun 19 16:53:23 2020 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:53:23 -0700 Subject: Fixing an RK8E .... In-Reply-To: References: <002401d6466f$5074bbb0$f15e3310$@com> Message-ID: <002101d64684$0e09d0c0$2a1d7240$@com> >Josh Dersch > .... one half-height (used upside down). Thanks, Josh - I hadn?t thought about using an extender card "backwards". That's a good idea. Next question is "how many extender cards do I have?"... Better go start digging. In the meantime I did some more fooling around with the diagnostic and discovered that it's apparently not really a stuck command bit after all. The tests are failing are #30 and #31, "VERIFY THAT RECALIBRATE INHIBITS LOAD COMMAND" and "VERIFY THAT RECALIBRATE INHIBITS LOAD DISK ADDRESS". Sounds like a problem with the recalibrate function instead. Bob From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 04:36:21 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 11:36:21 +0200 Subject: Hercules SDLC/BSC interfacing project - want 3174-x1R Message-ID: Hello! I have been working on interfacing the Hercules emulator with various real terminals for some time. First project was an Alfaskop terminal cluster which I connected using a small STM32 controller handling BSC. Next is an Informer 213, portable 3178/3174 compatible terminal. It it using SDLC. A friend has a 3178 and 3279 which would interesting to work with. A 3174-51R/-61R/-81R/-91R would be very suitable for this. It would be very nice to test my BSC and SDLC code with the real IBM stuff. I have put my project here: https://github.com/MattisLind/alfaskop_emu/tree/master/Utils Still very much Work In Progress. If anyone has a type 1 3174 that does BSC and SDLC so I could test my stuff I would be very interested. No need for fancy features like TCP/IP and/or token ring. I of course pay shipping. But can throw in various DEC QBUS stuff as a trade. /Mattis From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 20 05:45:44 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 03:45:44 -0700 Subject: Hercules SDLC/BSC interfacing project - want 3174-x1R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09d90947-c7e8-02b3-bc28-ec9a4f3ec8f2@bitsavers.org> On 6/20/20 2:36 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > If anyone has a type 1 3174 that does BSC and SDLC so I could test my stuff > I would be very interested. Dave Wade just posted that he had some in the UK he was interested in getting rid of. From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 07:41:19 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 14:41:19 +0200 Subject: Hercules SDLC/BSC interfacing project - want 3174-x1R In-Reply-To: <09d90947-c7e8-02b3-bc28-ec9a4f3ec8f2@bitsavers.org> References: <09d90947-c7e8-02b3-bc28-ec9a4f3ec8f2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: l?rdag 20 juni 2020 skrev Al Kossow via cctalk : > On 6/20/20 2:36 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > If anyone has a type 1 3174 that does BSC and SDLC so I could test my stuff >> I would be very interested. >> > > Dave Wade just posted that he had some in the UK he was interested in > getting rid of. Talked to Dave already. Appears that they all were type 2, at least the tabletop ones, except for one that Dave would prefer to keep. /Mattis From tsg at bonedaddy.net Sat Jun 20 07:43:29 2020 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 08:43:29 -0400 Subject: Fixing an RK8E .... In-Reply-To: References: <002401d6466f$5074bbb0$f15e3310$@com> Message-ID: <44ccedf1-a751-1881-de7a-9731bc5df0f4@bonedaddy.net> I have some of these connectors (from ECS) for $10 each Shipping in the US is a flat rate $8.30 (Poor) pictures at http://bonedaddy.net/tgoodman/photos/tgoodman/ECS-Connector/ Todd On 6/19/2020 5:19 PM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > On 6/19/2020 12:24 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: >> Ok, maybe a bad bit in the command register so I'll check it out.? >> But then >> it dawns on me - how do you work on this thing?? It's three boards >> connected >> with "over the top" connectors - you can't use a module extender on it. >> Worse, the M7105 Major Registers board is the middle one of the >> stack!?? Is >> there some secret to working on this thing?? Has anybody fixed one?? Any >> suggestions? >> >> ?? I hadn't thought about it before, but the KK8E CPU would have the >> same >> problem.? Fingers crossed that one never dies... > > Jack Rubin has worked on this problem a fair bit, and his solution: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?47821-DEC-extender-adapter-for-over-the-top-OMNIBUS-boards > > > Basically he's found a compatible edge connector, and made a little > PCB that interfaces it to a a ribbon cable.? A couple of those per > cable and you are all set. > > You may want to contact him about acquiring the female edge > connectors, as they can only be ordered in bulk.? (It might be my turn > to order them, if he's out.) > > ????Vince From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Sat Jun 20 04:20:05 2020 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 10:20:05 +0100 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board (Peter Van Peborgh) Message-ID: <049a01d646e3$fce317b0$f6a94710$@vanpeborgh.eu> Guys, I now know it is an early CDC board. IT had C*NT*OLDATA on the reverse - how I missed that must be attributed to old age. (Thanks Doug) Here are shots of the back: https://photos.app.goo.gl/UPozyBB3zp7XYcP79 Any idea what the row of hole opposite the contacts were? Testing points? But then why holes and not short pillars? Some are labelled on both sides. Continuing in hope, peter From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Jun 20 09:48:38 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 10:48:38 -0400 Subject: Someone's confused In-Reply-To: <4f54f01a-a4d2-1ec8-cf79-2b725ffa7154@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20200607153024.D977218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3AE62F93-511D-42EC-A8D7-E637751E7AFF@shaw.ca> <5EDDA803.8020806@pico-systems.com> <969D8020-8F74-48E3-8DC3-162182CD9CBB@typewritten.org> <6a805c89-3cfd-1621-aa31-ace5f152d376@alembic.crystel.com> <67fb491e-d203-a710-f40b-630e7254d3f1@e-bbes.com> <4f54f01a-a4d2-1ec8-cf79-2b725ffa7154@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 2020-06-19 20:37, Chris Zach wrote: > Yes, there was D and F, and F and G versions. Everything else was > emulated slowly. Putt putt it was.... Right! I have at least one of them. You know how one would see, which one it is? Different board numbers? > On 6/8/2020 3:26 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >> On 2020-06-08 11:55, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >>> 4) The 11/730 could emulate pdp11 instructions, the MV1 could not. Come >>> to think of it I think the 730's floating point could do D,F,G,H while >>> the MV1 could only do D,F,G. >> >> IIRC, there were two versions of the MV I board sets with different >> floating points? >> From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Jun 20 09:52:24 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 10:52:24 -0400 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <20200619153641.GA22300@mooli.org.uk> <20200620020535.9490A27479@mx1.ezwind.net> <90f04918-0fff-2345-dbe6-e49c0f68c069@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2020-06-19 23:42, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Images take up a lot of space and are best dealt with via links. > > On Fri, 19 Jun 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> Which rot over time. >> If you're going to create a permanent archive, you need to archive any >> attachments as well. >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum is a perfect example of messages full of >> link rot. > > We need, or at least want, to handle BOTH. > Long-term, "permanent" content, as well as > the casual "What is this? here's what it looks like" > > I have no idea whether it is practical to handle those the same, or > differently. Some mailing lists accept only attachments, if those are links into the permanent storage at the mail server ... From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jun 20 11:47:04 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 10:47:04 -0600 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech - text encoding In-Reply-To: <352F01F5-E8FF-481F-8EBC-1BA807AC0F01@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <027001d64424$386fa2c0$a94ee840$@ntlworld.com> <5EE96A76.6070000@pico-systems.com> <2b6f01d64481$71da2500$558e6f00$@gmail.com> <2ba401d6448d$d6a36bc0$83ea4340$@gmail.com> <7adef65e-a404-fc64-4264-9d4bbe121707@bitsavers.org> <2fee01d644e5$00aa5210$01fef630$@gmail.com> <01RM7REWMMP491VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <7w1rmckap5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <352F01F5-E8FF-481F-8EBC-1BA807AC0F01@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On 6/18/20 7:34 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > I vote we move the list to an Exchange server behind a SSL VPN > and mandate the use of Outlook, then force all messages to be in > quoted-printable encoding. I see your quoted-printable and raise you TNEF. > This way nobody ?wins? and everyone is equally miserable. It?s > only fair. Are you listening to "The Trees" from Rush? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jun 20 11:56:45 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 10:56:45 -0600 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: <705058024.1710010.1592421880011.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01RM7OM35IC691VRKE@beyondthepale.ie> <20200619153641.GA22300@mooli.org.uk> <20200620020535.9490A27479@mx1.ezwind.net> <90f04918-0fff-2345-dbe6-e49c0f68c069@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3cc2396e-7242-715a-263c-8e0562172f78@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 6/19/20 9:42 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > We need, or at least want, to handle BOTH. Agreed. > Long-term, "permanent" content, as well as the casual "What is > this? here's what it looks like" I think that short term can sort of ride the coat tales of the long term solution. > I have no idea whether it is practical to handle those the same, or > differently. What if the "short term" is the current URL to files that have been removed from emails (or uploaded directly). Admittedly this would be somewhat subject to the current location of the archive. Conversely the "long term" solution could simply be URL agnostic in that you go to the at the time current URL and navigate to the message you are looking for attachments to. I'd like to see the ability to search by subject / date / sender / message ID / etc. I think this method of long term solution makes the actual archive somewhat URL agnostic. As in you get there, wherever there is, and then pick the file(s) you want. With this type of long term solution, it doesn't really matter if the URL in the email breaks in the future. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jun 20 12:55:23 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 12:55:23 -0500 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board (Peter Van Peborgh) In-Reply-To: <049a01d646e3$fce317b0$f6a94710$@vanpeborgh.eu> References: <049a01d646e3$fce317b0$f6a94710$@vanpeborgh.eu> Message-ID: <5EEE4D8B.2030304@pico-systems.com> On 06/20/2020 04:20 AM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctech wrote: > Guys, > > I now know it is an early CDC board. IT had C*NT*OLDATA on the reverse - how > I missed that must be attributed to old age. (Thanks Doug) > > Here are shots of the back: https://photos.app.goo.gl/UPozyBB3zp7XYcP79 > > Ah, the missing letters are covered by solder! > Any idea what the row of hole opposite the contacts were? Testing points? Yes, for sure. The way they are made so close to the edge, you can just clip a scope probe to them for testing. Jon From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Jun 20 20:16:17 2020 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 20:16:17 -0500 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please Message-ID: <98c04c73-39da-4f7a-0cfe-8ee52d9fbcf4@centurytel.net> > On 06/11/2020 02:29 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > >/If that would be the case I think the system would fail />/quite soon rather than on test 5. A guess is that this is />/a memory problem. / That was a good guess, everyone ;) I got some new 4116's and piggybacked (dry, no solder) two of them atop my suspects at E3 & E4. Didn't fix it. Of course :/ In the meantime I've acquired a nice HP 1630G logic analyzer complete with pods and cables. Setting it up was going to take quite a while since I'm not familiar with this model. So I decided to try a simple brute-force approach before the analyzer. I piggybacked another 4116 onto each soldered-in 4116, one at a time. Actually easy to do since with the leads properly formed, I didn't even have to solder it in place, just turn off the power and move it to the next chip. On the 16th, the last one of course, the terminal booted normally and works again. :) I confirmed the bad one by removing the piggyback and the failure returned. Now I need to desolder the bad one without ruining the board. I may just cut the leads off close to the bad chip, and solder the replacement to the stumps. (Normally I remove the legs and install a machine-pin DIP socket). Or just solder the piggyback and leave it there... thoughts? From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jun 20 20:31:09 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 20:31:09 -0500 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: <98c04c73-39da-4f7a-0cfe-8ee52d9fbcf4@centurytel.net> References: <98c04c73-39da-4f7a-0cfe-8ee52d9fbcf4@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <5EEEB85D.1080308@pico-systems.com> > I confirmed the bad one by removing the piggyback and the > failure returned. Now I need to desolder the bad one > without ruining the board. I may just cut the leads off > close to the bad chip, and solder the replacement to the > stumps. (Normally I remove the legs and install a > machine-pin DIP socket). Or just solder the piggyback and > leave it there... thoughts? > Cut the leads close to the body. Apply a soldering iron to each lead, and pull the lead out with tweezers, simultaneously heating and pulling. This is very gentle to the board, just doing one at a time. Then, you can vacuum out the holes and install a new chip or socket. I've done this many times, and never wrecked a board. Jon From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 23:49:15 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 12:49:15 +0800 Subject: New subscribers? Message-ID: Are new subscribers to cctalk still accepted? My subscription request was left unanswered. With all the talk about the future of this list I wonder if I came too late. Thanks Tom Hunter From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Sun Jun 21 02:14:57 2020 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 09:14:57 +0200 Subject: New subscribers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 21/06/20 6:49 am, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Are new subscribers to cctalk still accepted? Yes. > My subscription request was left unanswered. There is no outstanding subscription request for your email, and I don't remember seeing it. Given the email name I would likely have approved it immediately. > With all the talk about the future of this list I wonder if I came too late. I don't think the list is going anywhere in the immediate future. > > Thanks > Tom Hunter Lawrence (moderator!) -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +41(0)79 926 1036 http://www.ljw.me.uk From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jun 21 12:18:59 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 13:18:59 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On May 17, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Gentlepeople, > > I've been having problems with broken LK201s, so as a workaround I created an adapter that connects to a standard PC USB keyboard and makes it look like an LK201. It's based on an Arduino (specifically, Adafruit Trinket M0, an amazingly tiny yet powerful small microprocessor). > > It's working at this point, though it needs a few small software tweaks to make it complete. I'm going to turn my breadboard into something slightly more polished. > > Question to the list: is this something that would be of interest to others? If yes, I can make the design available. Perhaps the PCB layout and parts list. I don't think I want to get into building units for others, though. > > paul Ok, I have a working device. The whole design can be found on Github: https://github.com/pkoning2/lk201emu As I mentioned before, I'm not providing parts, kits, or devices. Comments and feedback will be appreciated. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jun 21 15:21:08 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 16:21:08 -0400 Subject: DECnet/E Y2K bugfix Message-ID: I just made some small changes to the DECnet/E event logger application to fix a Y2K problem. (More precisely, a Y2K.003 problem). https://github.com/pkoning2/decstuff This is for RSTS V10.1. Just drop the new evtlog.tsk into [0,16]. paul From sales at elecplus.com Sun Jun 21 15:21:38 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 15:21:38 -0500 Subject: Imsai and others in Montgomery, AL Message-ID: <005101d64809$91a6c6a0$b4f453e0$@com> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/960320167759670/ Guy is cleaning out his shed because he is moving. Not affiliated with seller, etc. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Jun 21 17:07:58 2020 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 17:07:58 -0500 Subject: Malfunctioning VT240 - help please In-Reply-To: <3ebcf975-d362-ae43-fba5-873ba628ac21@centurytel.net> References: <3ebcf975-d362-ae43-fba5-873ba628ac21@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <33d85fb4-35c0-a7e1-70de-05e4dc7b419a@centurytel.net> On 6/21/20 10:41 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 06/20/2020 09:41 PM, Charles wrote: >> On 6/20/20 8:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >>> >>>> I confirmed the bad one by removing the piggyback and the failure >>>> returned. Now I need to desolder the bad one without ruining the >>>> board. I may just cut the leads off close to the bad chip, and >>>> solder the replacement to the stumps. (Normally I remove the legs >>>> and install a machine-pin DIP socket). Or just solder the piggyback >>>> and leave it there... thoughts? >>>> >>> Cut the leads close to the body.? Apply a soldering iron to each >>> lead, and pull the lead out with tweezers, >>> simultaneously heating and pulling.? This is very gentle to the >>> board, just doing one at a time.? Then, you can vacuum out the holes >>> and install a new chip or socket. >>> >>> I've done this many times, and never wrecked a board. >>> >>> Jon >>> >> That's how I do it... the vacuuming is the problem. Someday I need to >> get a good vacuum desoldering station. Right now I just have a >> spring-loaded solder sucker (which I can do a pretty decent job with >> on most boards). But this high-density layout (2 traces between DIP >> pads) I'm a bit wary of. >> > Just be gentle, and you should be able to do it.? Also, in some cases, > you might heat from the opposite side from the solder sucker.? That > way, you can keep the soldering iron on the pad until you have > triggered the sucker.? But, yes, the hollow soldering iron with > powered vacuum is amazing the first time you try it.? I got one at an > auction years ago, it is much better than the regular iron and > plunger-sucker. > > Jon The small company I first worked for had a Pace unit. I remember not being impressed with it - frequent clogs, pads lifting, and not getting all the solder out, no matter how we set things. Still beat solder-wick though! I got it done, but pin 16 (which connects directly to the internal-layer ground plane) was a bear. From the feel of it and the heat required, the draftsman didn't bother to make pad reliefs. Anyway it's now socketed, so of course it will never fail again! I also made a small jumper on a 15-pin D-sub to connect Monitor Present L to ground, so that annoying "Monitor Error 9" message stops ;) On to the next project! From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Sun Jun 21 08:22:25 2020 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 06:22:25 -0700 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> <1592406679.30626.23.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <1592745745.21316.8.camel@moondog> On Wed, 2020-06-17 at 11:27 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > They are indeed GEs! 188 is the clue. > Thanks! What is the secret decoder ring that tells you 188 means GE? From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Sun Jun 21 08:22:59 2020 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 06:22:59 -0700 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> <20200617171410.GC24154@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <1592745779.21316.10.camel@moondog> On Wed, 2020-06-17 at 13:24 -0400, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > 5965 is a computer rated 12AV7 with better balanced cutoff > characteristics, but generally worse for noise. Darn. "Worse for noise" probably means I won't find audio nirvana trying these in any of my amps. And there's a good chance they're worn out anyway (one of my theories is that these are tubes that were undergoing reliability testing or failure analysis). From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 06:56:34 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 07:56:34 -0400 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: <1592745745.21316.8.camel@moondog> References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> <1592406679.30626.23.camel@moondog> <1592745745.21316.8.camel@moondog> Message-ID: > > Thanks! What is the secret decoder ring that tells you 188 means GE? EIA manufacturer codes. These were often applied to private and house branded labelled tubes. Other numbers are 274 for RCA, 280 for Raytheon, 158 for DuMont, and so forth. EIA codes were used for non-tube electronic parrots. -- Will From nw.johnson at ieee.org Mon Jun 22 06:58:21 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 07:58:21 -0400 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> <1592406679.30626.23.camel@moondog> <1592745745.21316.8.camel@moondog> Message-ID: An electronic parrot in the vacuum tube days? -- must have been very large! On 22/06/2020 07:56, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> Thanks! What is the secret decoder ring that tells you 188 means GE? > EIA manufacturer codes. These were often applied to private and house > branded labelled tubes. Other numbers are 274 for RCA, 280 for > Raytheon, 158 for DuMont, and so forth. > > EIA codes were used for non-tube electronic parrots. > > -- > Will -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 06:58:34 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 07:58:34 -0400 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: <1592745779.21316.10.camel@moondog> References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> <20200617171410.GC24154@lonesome.com> <1592745779.21316.10.camel@moondog> Message-ID: > Darn. "Worse for noise" probably means I won't find audio nirvana > trying these in any of my amps. Most computer tubes are pretty bad for audio, even though there are plenty of snake oil tube dealers that proclaim them as audio gold. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 22 11:38:48 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 09:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> <1592406679.30626.23.camel@moondog> <1592745745.21316.8.camel@moondog> Message-ID: >> EIA codes were used for non-tube electronic parrots. On Mon, 22 Jun 2020, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > An electronic parrot in the vacuum tube days? -- must have been very large! E's not dead! Just slip a new valve in. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 22 17:22:59 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 16:22:59 -0600 Subject: IBM vacuum tubes In-Reply-To: References: <1592229115.19485.806.camel@moondog> <1592319494.28014.6.camel@moondog> <20200617171410.GC24154@lonesome.com> <1592745779.21316.10.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <5c768b9d-b60e-ba9d-7f28-149a1765d037@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/22/2020 5:58 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> Darn. "Worse for noise" probably means I won't find audio nirvana >> trying these in any of my amps. > > Most computer tubes are pretty bad for audio, even though there are > plenty of snake oil tube dealers that proclaim them as audio gold. > > -- > Will > See that is the problem ... Snake oil tends to develop a hiss after a while, not the valve. Ben. From roelof_klaas at yahoo.com Tue Jun 23 12:05:04 2020 From: roelof_klaas at yahoo.com (Roland) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 17:05:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: PDP8 KV graphics PCB design In-Reply-To: <1004311098.1764704.1592929247398@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1004311098.1764704.1592929247398.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1004311098.1764704.1592929247398@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <450262885.1780548.1592931904405@mail.yahoo.com> I found somewhat fascinating pictures in a PDP8 small computer handbook. It is a KV graphics system. According to the book it was used to design new computer circuit boards. So I got very curious to that KV system. I found a maintenance manual about the system. It even had a joystick! I wonder if any of that PCB software has been rescued? Regards, Roland https://ibb.co/WVKCfMz https://ibb.co/TvYpP2v https://ibb.co/6mSZkdh From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 23 12:11:48 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 13:11:48 -0400 Subject: PDP8 KV graphics PCB design In-Reply-To: <450262885.1780548.1592931904405@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1004311098.1764704.1592929247398.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1004311098.1764704.1592929247398@mail.yahoo.com> <450262885.1780548.1592931904405@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Neat. I didn't know that one, I did see PDP-15 based PC layout systems at DEC (Merrimack NH). The second photo you posted looks like it was taken in the Mill. The web server you're using is suspicious. My browser told me that it was asking permission to get my location. I rejected that, but I consider websites that ask for such things without a clear reason why to be things to be avoided as possible scam channels. paul > On Jun 23, 2020, at 1:05 PM, Roland via cctalk wrote: > > I found somewhat fascinating pictures in a PDP8 small computer handbook. It is a KV graphics system. According to the book it was used to design new computer circuit boards. So I got very curious to that KV system. I found a maintenance manual about the system. It even had a joystick! I wonder if any of that PCB software has been rescued? > > Regards, Roland > > https://ibb.co/WVKCfMz > https://ibb.co/TvYpP2v > https://ibb.co/6mSZkdh > > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jun 23 12:48:23 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 12:48:23 -0500 Subject: PDP8 KV graphics PCB design In-Reply-To: <450262885.1780548.1592931904405@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1004311098.1764704.1592929247398.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1004311098.1764704.1592929247398@mail.yahoo.com> <450262885.1780548.1592931904405@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5EF24067.2080101@pico-systems.com> On 06/23/2020 12:05 PM, Roland via cctech wrote: > I found somewhat fascinating pictures in a PDP8 small computer handbook. It is a KV graphics system. According to the book it was used to design new computer circuit boards. So I got very curious to that KV system. I found a maintenance manual about the system. It even had a joystick! I wonder if any of that PCB software has been rescued? > > Regards, Roland > > https://ibb.co/WVKCfMz > https://ibb.co/TvYpP2v > https://ibb.co/6mSZkdh Ah, yes, a Tektronix 611 direct view storage tube! We also used those on the Artronix PC, they were the only way a 12-bit computer could keep a complex display on the screen without horrible flicker. Jon From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Jun 23 20:03:04 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 21:03:04 -0400 Subject: Changing the number of file headers on an RSX volume Message-ID: <0da45b71-0bd3-9708-ee45-9c42555b031f@alembic.crystel.com> So I'm working on this RSX11M+ system here and while working I ran myself out of file headers. Using the HOME /MXF command I was able to increase the number of headers, but only up to 4090. or so. Trying to go to 4100 gave me an error saying there were not enough system blocks or something. Currently I have 830 headers, but that's not enough in the long term. The volume has 541,944 blocks total, with 150655 in use. This is a system I generated on a smaller disk, then copied to the pdp11, then backed up with BRU MU0:=DU0: then restored to a larger blank disk. I guess the question is can I extend the number of blocks without having to re-init the system disk? I suppose I could flatten it by taking the system down to single user (shutdown, then p to start with the volume dismounted, mount the volume /for, then BRU mu0:=du0:), then format the volume with a really big assed MXF value, then restoring the tape, but would that flatten the volume info? Or do I need to just man up, put a second ESDI drive on this monster, copy the files to the second drive then format the first (big) volume right, copy the files with PIP, and do a VMR again to write the boot block? Or is there a better way to backup and restore the volume without doing an image backup using /for? Been a long time since I've done this stuff. Thanks! C From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 23 20:57:20 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 18:57:20 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 tape question Message-ID: I've been processing some PDP-11 9 track (800 NRZI) tapes and run across something that I don't recognize. Every file on the tape consists of a number of 512 byte blocks (okay, that's normal) but at the head of each file, there's a short block of 14 bytes. Usually, a short record like this is discarded as "noise" on many mainframe tape systems, but here it's consistently present. Here's what one of the records looks like: 15 34 fe 51 fe 76 01 01 00 00 01 80 10 00 Doesn't seem like a file name in RAD50 format, so I'm puzzled. Inquiring minds want to know... Thanks, Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jun 23 21:09:14 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 19:09:14 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 tape question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We had a 12.5 IPS drive on a Microdata 1600.? Once you gave the "go" command to the controller, you could actually drive it with byte / byte programmed I/O.? We had to enforce the blocksize on tapes which went anywhere else.? But we could write from one byte to an entire tape as a single record.? The latter would (at the time we first did it) crash the campus 360/50 by the way. But we enforced 14 bytes as the minimum. We had a fellow who did his masters project implement a formal library to write 100% compatible tapes with different organizations, and all labels, etc.? I don't recall any record shorter than 14 bytes if any there either.? Of course labels were 80 bytes. Main comment here is 14 bytes seems okay. Thanks Jim Short story of crashing the 360 MVT system.? We had IBM reels we reused which IBM used for patches called DTRs.? they had 50 or 100' max length tape.? We had a guy muck up a program to send a file off our system to the mainframe, and he forgot to break up the file into records.? So he ended up with an entire tape with one big physical record. what happened was our code didn't? properly terminate, so when the IBM job was run with the tape as input it read the entire tape and got a tape error.? then printed a spew on the console.? repeat 10 times. Problem, tape drive and console was on the same channel.? With normal size records even up to 64k long the tape didn't busy the channel up for very long. Second part of problem, if you busy out the channel to the console(s) on MVT when the buffers fill, the system crashes.? So with the tape retrying and spewing messages along with other crap onto the console from other operations, cratered the system in about 30 seconds. Console by the way was a KSR 1052, similar to the 2741 Selectric terminals, but faster. On 6/23/2020 6:57 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I've been processing some PDP-11 9 track (800 NRZI) tapes and run across > something that I don't recognize. > > Every file on the tape consists of a number of 512 byte blocks (okay, > that's normal) but at the head of each file, there's a short block of 14 > bytes. > > Usually, a short record like this is discarded as "noise" on many > mainframe tape systems, but here it's consistently present. Here's what > one of the records looks like: > > 15 34 fe 51 fe 76 01 01 00 00 01 80 10 00 > > Doesn't seem like a file name in RAD50 format, so I'm puzzled. > > Inquiring minds want to know... > > Thanks, > Chuck > From john at forecast.name Tue Jun 23 22:18:12 2020 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 23:18:12 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 tape question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31058EF3-5F7D-4767-85C0-637B5C690782@forecast.name> On Jun 23, 2020, at 9:57 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I've been processing some PDP-11 9 track (800 NRZI) tapes and run across > something that I don't recognize. > > Every file on the tape consists of a number of 512 byte blocks (okay, > that's normal) but at the head of each file, there's a short block of 14 > bytes. > > Usually, a short record like this is discarded as "noise" on many > mainframe tape systems, but here it's consistently present. Here's what > one of the records looks like: > > 15 34 fe 51 fe 76 01 01 00 00 01 80 10 00 > > Doesn't seem like a file name in RAD50 format, so I'm puzzled. > > Inquiring minds want to know... > > Thanks, > Chuck Looks like a standard DOS/BATCH-11 tape file header. The first 6 bytes and the last 2 bytes are the file name in rad50 - ?HMMMD0P.SAV?. Depending on where/when it was written the header can be either 12 or 14 bytes: Format of DOS-11 magnetic tape header records: .rad50 /fn1fn2/ ;1st 6 letters of filename .rad50 /ext/ ;3-letter extension .byte proj,prog ;ppn (display it in octal) .word prot ;protection code, usually <233> octal .word date ;date: (year-1970.)*1000.+(day within year) .rad50 /fn3/ ;[optional] letters 7::9 of filename Length=14. bytes (or 12. if no fn3, like in actual DOS/BATCH) John. From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 17:46:52 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 18:46:52 -0400 Subject: PDP8 KV graphics PCB design In-Reply-To: <5EF24067.2080101@pico-systems.com> References: <1004311098.1764704.1592929247398.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1004311098.1764704.1592929247398@mail.yahoo.com> <450262885.1780548.1592931904405@mail.yahoo.com> <5EF24067.2080101@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: KV8i, Us Navy was a big customer up til about 1971. I could be wrong, but I think Murray Rueben was the lead designer, and I think Dick Sogge had soemthing to do with it. We were going to do on on the /e, an omnibus design, but that was killed by Marketing in mid 70/ bb On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 1:48 PM Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > > On 06/23/2020 12:05 PM, Roland via cctech wrote: > > I found somewhat fascinating pictures in a PDP8 small computer handbook. It is a KV graphics system. According to the book it was used to design new computer circuit boards. So I got very curious to that KV system. I found a maintenance manual about the system. It even had a joystick! I wonder if any of that PCB software has been rescued? > > > > Regards, Roland > > > > https://ibb.co/WVKCfMz > > https://ibb.co/TvYpP2v > > https://ibb.co/6mSZkdh > Ah, yes, a Tektronix 611 direct view storage tube! We also > used those on the Artronix PC, they were the only way a > 12-bit computer could keep a complex display on the screen > without horrible flicker. > > Jon From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 24 00:50:00 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 22:50:00 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 tape question In-Reply-To: <31058EF3-5F7D-4767-85C0-637B5C690782@forecast.name> References: <31058EF3-5F7D-4767-85C0-637B5C690782@forecast.name> Message-ID: <799ed01d-35b4-24ea-11b6-7e3e907938ab@sydex.com> On 6/23/20 8:18 PM, John Forecast wrote: > Looks like a standard DOS/BATCH-11 tape file header. The first 6 bytes and the last 2 bytes are the file name in rad50 - ?HMMMD0P.SAV?. > Depending on where/when it was written the header can be either 12 or 14 bytes: > > Format of DOS-11 magnetic tape header records: > > .rad50 /fn1fn2/ ;1st 6 letters of filename > .rad50 /ext/ ;3-letter extension > .byte proj,prog ;ppn (display it in octal) > .word prot ;protection code, usually <233> octal > .word date ;date: (year-1970.)*1000.+(day within year) > .rad50 /fn3/ ;[optional] letters 7::9 of filename > > Length=14. bytes (or 12. if no fn3, like in actual DOS/BATCH) Thanks for straightening that out--all I know is that the tapes are from an 11/70, which isn't much information, admittedly. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 24 06:47:32 2020 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 06:47:32 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 tape question In-Reply-To: <799ed01d-35b4-24ea-11b6-7e3e907938ab@sydex.com> References: <31058EF3-5F7D-4767-85C0-637B5C690782@forecast.name> <799ed01d-35b4-24ea-11b6-7e3e907938ab@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20200624114749.639864E7C5@mx2.ezwind.net> At 12:50 AM 6/24/2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >Thanks for straightening that out--all I know is that the tapes are from >an 11/70, which isn't much information, admittedly. A few months ago, I was re-rescuing some files that a friend had once read from a RSTS tape. He gave two sets of files. I'm not sure what tool or system he was using, but it probably was newer than the RSTS. One grabbed the files with the 14 bytes prepended to every file but without correct filenames, the other rescued the files with the filenames but without the correct dates. Once I figured out the nameless files had the 14 byte DOS-11 tape header, I wrote a little C tool that gave the files their proper filename and date. You're welcome to it. For Windows at least and probably Unix. My deeper goal was to rescue the files well enough to get them running again under SIMH and/or one of the JavaScript-based in-browser emulators. The programs wanted the FORTRAN compiler environment and BASIC-PLUS, and finding all those installers of the right version and combination, learning how to get it all right... whew, I wasn't sysop-level back then, and so much time has passed, it's quite a puzzle. - John From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 24 08:27:20 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 09:27:20 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 tape question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <475645E4-2ED8-40AB-AB21-D7763730444A@comcast.net> > On Jun 23, 2020, at 9:57 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I've been processing some PDP-11 9 track (800 NRZI) tapes and run across > something that I don't recognize. > > Every file on the tape consists of a number of 512 byte blocks (okay, > that's normal) but at the head of each file, there's a short block of 14 > bytes. > > Usually, a short record like this is discarded as "noise" on many > mainframe tape systems, but here it's consistently present. Here's what > one of the records looks like: > > 15 34 fe 51 fe 76 01 01 00 00 01 80 10 00 > > Doesn't seem like a file name in RAD50 format, so I'm puzzled. > > Inquiring minds want to know... > > Thanks, > Chuck As others have answered, that's a DOS file label, used in PDP-11 magtapes since the beginning. Most PDP-11 operating systems also support ANSI labels, but DOS labels are the most common on RSTS (except for V9 and later backup tapes which are always ANSI). Bootable tapes are DOS labeled. I remember that OS/360 documentation stated < 18 bytes would be treated as noise but that's not precisely true. The accurate description is that a record encountering a read error but < 18 bytes long would be silently discarded as noise rather than being reported as a real block with a read error. But error free 14 byte blocks can be read just fine. I wrote an OS/360 utility (now long lost unfortunately) that would read DOS-11 format tapes so we could print large files (our RSTS/E system didn't have a line printer but the 360/44 did). No problem there. It used EXCP to allow reading across tape marks, and possibly that made handling the 14 byte records easier but I don't remember that it was required for that purpose. paul From kgober at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 11:57:44 2020 From: kgober at gmail.com (Kenneth Gober) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 12:57:44 -0400 Subject: Changing the number of file headers on an RSX volume In-Reply-To: <0da45b71-0bd3-9708-ee45-9c42555b031f@alembic.crystel.com> References: <0da45b71-0bd3-9708-ee45-9c42555b031f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 9:03 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > So I'm working on this RSX11M+ system here and while working I ran > myself out of file headers. Using the HOME /MXF command I was able to > increase the number of headers, but only up to 4090. or so. Trying to go > to 4100 gave me an error saying there were not enough system blocks or > something. Currently I have 830 headers, but that's not enough in the > long term. > I've never actually used RSX-11 myself, all I know about it is what I read in the ODS-1 spec, but I'm guessing the issue here is that the volume is set up with only 1 block allocated for the index file bitmap, and growing the number of file headers beyond 4096 would require growing the index file bitmap to 2 blocks (or more, depending on how many file headers you expect to need). Since the first 16 file headers must follow directly after the index file bitmap, growing the bitmap requires moving those first 16 file headers as well, which in turn requires moving whatever may currently be in the way. None of this of course is something I'd expect the system to be able to do while the volume is mounted. What precisely you have to do to achieve the goal of having a volume with more file headers I can't say, sorry, but I thought I could at least provide some extra context for other readers on why it's not as trivial to do as one might guess. -ken From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 12:02:43 2020 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:02:43 -0700 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech - text encoding In-Reply-To: <352F01F5-E8FF-481F-8EBC-1BA807AC0F01@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <352F01F5-E8FF-481F-8EBC-1BA807AC0F01@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <9D4BEB8A-1D44-4DA3-B697-A9BCEA395D1A@gmail.com> >>> Peter Coghlan wrote: >>> Does anyone use ASCII anymore? >> >> I read and write my email with Emacs running in a terminal emulator. >> I rarely need anything beoynd codepoint 126. > > I vote we move the list to an Exchange server behind a SSL VPN and mandate the use of Outlook, then force all messages to be in quoted-printable encoding. This way nobody ?wins? and everyone is equally miserable. It?s only fair. +1 on the Exchange server. You might even be able to have more than 2 people connected to it at the same time without crashing, if you put enough admins on the problem. But I would strongly suggest that we limit it to using characters from the Baudot set. If not they don?t print right on my 1930 Teletype. Also Darwin recently wrote a paper about us, and revoked his theory of evolution. Unlike the God-awfull Yahoo Groups, Groups.io works OK for the other lists I follow. Meaning it?s functional and tolerable, and only moderately infuriating. But it is certainly not as clean and efficient as this list by a good margin. It would be good if we could preserve this. Maybe evolve to the use of pictures or attachments, just to prove Darwin wrong? Limited to ASCII art only pictures, of course. Marc From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jun 24 12:21:23 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 18:21:23 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech - text encoding In-Reply-To: <9D4BEB8A-1D44-4DA3-B697-A9BCEA395D1A@gmail.com> References: <352F01F5-E8FF-481F-8EBC-1BA807AC0F01@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <01RMGN7M46EU91W49B@beyondthepale.ie> Someone whose name might be Marc might have written: >>>> Peter Coghlan wrote: >>>> Does anyone use ASCII anymore? >>> >>> I read and write my email with Emacs running in a terminal emulator. >>> I rarely need anything beoynd codepoint 126. >> >> I vote we move the list to an Exchange server behind a SSL VPN and mandate >> the use of Outlook, then force all messages to be in quoted-printable >> encoding. This way nobody ?wins? and everyone is equally miserable. >> It?s only fair. > C'mon, quoted-printable is usually fairly readable. How about base-64? Or if this is regarded as too modern or too universal, how about uuencoding? > > +1 on the Exchange server. You might even be able to have more than 2 people > connected to it at the same time without crashing, if you put enough admins > on the problem. > You can't use an Exchange server. I believe Exchange servers silently discard messages whose message-id it has previously seen. This would solve (actually hide) the duplicated messages problem and we can't have that! > > But I would strongly suggest that we limit it to using characters from the > Baudot set. If not they don?t print right on my 1930 Teletype. > > Also Darwin recently wrote a paper about us, and revoked his theory of > evolution. > > Unlike the God-awfull Yahoo Groups, Groups.io works OK for the other lists > I follow. Meaning it?s functional and tolerable, and only moderately > infuriating. But it is certainly not as clean and efficient as this list > by a good margin. It would be good if we could preserve this. > > Maybe evolve to the use of pictures or attachments, just to prove Darwin > wrong? Limited to ASCII art only pictures, of course. > Hang on, what about those who prefer their art in upper case EBCDIC only? Regards, Peter Coghlan > > Marc From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Jun 24 12:37:47 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 13:37:47 -0400 Subject: Changing the number of file headers on an RSX volume In-Reply-To: References: <0da45b71-0bd3-9708-ee45-9c42555b031f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <743d8b91-e3ab-d5f8-89bf-078d3026d4d0@alembic.crystel.com> I did get an answer from Johnny B, and it makes sense why I couldn't figure it out: In order to increase the file handles significantly you have to either dismount with "dmo du0:/dev/lock=v" to lock tasks in memory then mount foreign and back it up or just put BRU64K on an RX01 floppy with VMRV48 and boot from that. Then after the volume is backed up to tape you clobber it by using BRU to restore it and set the /MXF parameter on that line. Otherwise BRU keeps the same value for MXF and the files limit is still there. The neat part (and why I couldn't remember) is I used to use DSC to back up my RL02's and RM02's to other RL/RM disk packs. DSC did a pretty much image copy while BRU actually creates a new file system and then copies the files and the boot information. I didn't use BRU at the time because I didn't have a tape drive. Modern technology marches on. I'm waiting on a pair of TK50 tapes to arrive from TrashBay, once I have those checked out I'll do the backup and restore and get myself back in business. C * Dismounting the system volume on RSX11 is tricky. You can just dismount it, but then the system will lock you out of installed tasks and you'll be dead in the water. The /dev/lock=v holds the tasks in memory so you can still run your tools with the disk dismounted. A quick way to do this is to bring up the system, then shutdown and when you get to ODT type P to proceed. The system will come up with the shell but no volumes. Using HOM can increase the number of files or directories but only up to a point. Also with home you need to first set the device to private (only do-able when you do the shutdown and resume with P trick) then allocate the disk, then mount it foreign. It's never dull in pdp11 world. CZ On 6/24/2020 12:57 PM, Kenneth Gober wrote: > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 9:03 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > > wrote: > > So I'm working on this RSX11M+ system here and while working I ran > myself out of file headers. Using the HOME /MXF command I was able to > increase the number of headers, but only up to 4090. or so. Trying > to go > to 4100 gave me an error saying there were not enough system blocks or > something. Currently I have 830 headers, but that's not enough in the > long term. > > > I've never actually used RSX-11 myself, all I know about it is what I read > in the ODS-1 spec, but I'm guessing the issue here is that the volume is > set up with only 1 block allocated for the index file bitmap, and growing > the number of file headers beyond 4096 would require growing the index > file bitmap to 2 blocks (or more, depending on how many file headers you > expect to need).? Since the first 16 file headers must follow directly after > the index file bitmap, growing the bitmap requires moving those first 16 > file headers as well, which in turn requires moving whatever may currently > be in the way.? None of this of course is something I'd expect the system > to be able to do while the volume is mounted. > > What precisely you have to do to achieve the goal of having a volume > with more file headers I can't say, sorry, but I thought I could at least > provide some extra context for other readers on why it's not as trivial to > do as one might guess. > > -ken From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Jun 24 13:06:35 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 11:06:35 -0700 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech - text encoding In-Reply-To: <9D4BEB8A-1D44-4DA3-B697-A9BCEA395D1A@gmail.com> References: <352F01F5-E8FF-481F-8EBC-1BA807AC0F01@lunar-tokyo.net> <9D4BEB8A-1D44-4DA3-B697-A9BCEA395D1A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <74889c74-7f8e-d413-df9b-74d5811d595f@jwsss.com> On 6/24/2020 10:02 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > But I would strongly suggest that we limit it to using characters from the Baudot set. If not they don?t print right on my 1930 Teletype. I can peruse the list on my Teletype ASR-32(s).? Can archive the list with the 5 level paper tape (at least till the three rolls of tape run out). From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jun 24 15:23:04 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 15:23:04 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 tape question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EF3B628.3080200@pico-systems.com> On 06/23/2020 09:09 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > Short story of crashing the 360 MVT system. We had IBM > reels we reused which IBM used for patches called DTRs. > they had 50 or 100' max length tape. We had a guy muck up > a program to send a file off our system to the mainframe, > and he forgot to break up the file into records. So he > ended up with an entire tape with one big physical record. > > what happened was our code didn't properly terminate, so > when the IBM job was run with the tape as input it read > the entire tape and got a tape error. then printed a spew > on the console. repeat 10 times. > > Problem, tape drive and console was on the same channel. > With normal size records even up to 64k long the tape > didn't busy the channel up for very long. > The 1052 Selectric console on the 360's were not on a channel, but driven via direct I/O directly from the CPU microcode. (Yes, the console has a pseudo channel address that made you THINK it was on a channel, but it actually wasn't.) I'm kind of surprised, as the tape controller had a record length count, and should just terminate with an error if the record was longer than the count specified. You HAD to do that, as otherwise you could overrun the user's buffer and write tape data onto system control blocks or even another user's partition. Exactly how the tape controller handled these insanely long records, however, is another matter, and I can imagine the controller might try to reach the end of the record before turning around to backspace over it so it didn't run over to another record. And, that could tie up the channel for a minute or more. Sharing devices, control units and channels on the 360 was NOT a really well thought-out mechanism. Searching a data set of several cylinders for a specific key on a 2314 drive could bring the whole system to a halt for many seconds. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 24 16:12:32 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 14:12:32 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 tape question In-Reply-To: <5EF3B628.3080200@pico-systems.com> References: <5EF3B628.3080200@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 6/24/20 1:23 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > The 1052 Selectric console on the 360's were not on a channel, but > driven via direct I/O directly from the CPU microcode.? (Yes, the > console has a pseudo channel address that made you THINK it was on a > channel, but it actually wasn't.) One prank to pull on an operator was to write a CCW chain to ring the 1052 bell and then to a TIC back to the bell ring CCW. At least on DOS/360, pretty much impossible to kill without doing an IPL, as the keyboard would be locked. Fun from my younger days. --Chuck From nw.johnson at ieee.org Wed Jun 24 16:19:40 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 17:19:40 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 tape question In-Reply-To: References: <5EF3B628.3080200@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <3f9e8b14-9788-42c2-30f4-55b204095fd4@ieee.org> Sometimes I had only lunch hour to do PMs, and one office worker always ate into my time because she had to 'finish something'. Pretty soon I found that [ 2 ; 9 y would put all ANSI terminals into continuous self-test, and that solved the problem:-) Those were the days! cheers, Nigel On 24/06/2020 17:12, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/24/20 1:23 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> The 1052 Selectric console on the 360's were not on a channel, but >> driven via direct I/O directly from the CPU microcode.? (Yes, the >> console has a pseudo channel address that made you THINK it was on a >> channel, but it actually wasn't.) > One prank to pull on an operator was to write a CCW chain to ring the > 1052 bell and then to a TIC back to the bell ring CCW. > > At least on DOS/360, pretty much impossible to kill without doing an > IPL, as the keyboard would be locked. > > Fun from my younger days. > > --Chuck > -- Nigel Johnson, Sc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jun 24 17:37:44 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 17:37:44 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 tape question In-Reply-To: References: <5EF3B628.3080200@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5EF3D5B8.2090300@pico-systems.com> On 06/24/2020 04:12 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/24/20 1:23 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> The 1052 Selectric console on the 360's were not on a channel, but >> driven via direct I/O directly from the CPU microcode. (Yes, the >> console has a pseudo channel address that made you THINK it was on a >> channel, but it actually wasn't.) > One prank to pull on an operator was to write a CCW chain to ring the > 1052 bell and then to a TIC back to the bell ring CCW. > > At least on DOS/360, pretty much impossible to kill without doing an > IPL, as the keyboard would be locked. > Yup, the only way to stop that would be to do a halt IO instruction or press system reset. Jon From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Jun 24 18:26:51 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:26:51 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 tape question In-Reply-To: References: <5EF3B628.3080200@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 6/24/2020 2:12 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/24/20 1:23 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> The 1052 Selectric console on the 360's were not on a channel, but >> driven via direct I/O directly from the CPU microcode.? (Yes, the >> console has a pseudo channel address that made you THINK it was on a >> channel, but it actually wasn't.) > One prank to pull on an operator was to write a CCW chain to ring the > 1052 bell and then to a TIC back to the bell ring CCW. > > At least on DOS/360, pretty much impossible to kill without doing an > IPL, as the keyboard would be locked. > > Fun from my younger days. > > --Chuck > One of my buddies had a football game, sort of like the logic of basic games that came along, but was written in Cobol.? was about 3 or 4 inches of cards and a nice game. The thing was written to use WTO and WTOR which isn't that big a deal in a lot of shops. However when you've got a lot of jobs running and need the console, having to play a game of football to get back access to the console wasn't amusing.? We (students, users) all looked at each other, and figured they'd have a way around that, wouldn't they, and he ran it. Also regardless the retries and the tape channel were intertwined and when the tape was retrying the console I/O was locked up. Channel attach or not. The other useless bit (going way off the subject of tape) the system used HASP for a lot of the job scheduling on the site with a lot of mods to HASP and the system initiator code. Relative to the cobol football game, i discovered from reading the initiator code that one could issue console commands from any reader attached to an initiator by putting a / in front of the command and having it be valid.? I was nice and told the operators and the system programmer guys it was active.? I got to do a couple of simple display commands and kept it to myself while they fixed the initiators to not accept commands. The bad news was that was a couple weeks before my other friend decided to run football. thanks Jim From dave.dunfield at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 10:41:06 2020 From: dave.dunfield at gmail.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:41:06 -0400 Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! Message-ID: Hi, Don't know if anyone is interested, but I'd guess that a lot of you like me have collected a big pile of digital "stuff" over the years, and also if like me, it may have gotten away from you a bit with a lot of duplication etc. Having some spare time, I've been organizing my collected documentation, software, drivers and other files. As part of this process I wrote "Duplicate File Finder", a WIn32/64 tool which can look at a VERY large file collection (can even be across many drives etc.) and produce a nice summary of what is duplicated and where all the duplicates are. I originally wrote it for my own use, but it has proven SO useful that I took a little time to clean it up and post it at my personal site.: http://dunfield.maknonsolutions.com If this sounds useful, have a look and grab the program. Hopefully it will be as useful to you as it has to me. Dave -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Personal site: http://dunfield.maknonsolutions.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 25 10:57:26 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 08:57:26 -0700 Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/25/20 8:41 AM, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > Don't know if anyone is interested, but I'd guess that a lot of you like > me have collected a big pile of digital "stuff" over the years, and also if > like me, it may have gotten away from you a bit with a lot of duplication > etc. Hi Dave, I'm not clear on what "duplicate" really means. Perhaps you can clarify things for me. Duplicate in name and/or size? Duplicate in content? There are lots of duplicate file finders for Windows and some of them are quite sophisticated, being able to compare the content of files with different encodings and provide "almost the same" type of information. https://beebom.com/best-duplicate-file-finders-windows/ Thanks, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 25 11:02:36 2020 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:02:36 -0500 Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200625160638.4D9494E7CC@mx2.ezwind.net> At 10:41 AM 6/25/2020, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote: >I originally wrote it for my own use, but it has proven SO useful that I took >a little time to clean it up and post it at my personal site.: Downloading http://dunfield.maknonsolutions.com/dos/sw/ddw2020.zip gets flagged by Windows Defender on Windows 10 Pro (1909) as "Worm:Win32/Spybot". - John From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 13:18:22 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:18:22 -0700 Subject: Tri-Data Cartrifile parts/interfaces/tapes? Message-ID: Hi all -- I picked up a Tri-Data Cartrifile 4096 at VCF West last year and since I'm suddenly going to have more time on my hands, I thought it'd be fun to see if I can get it running again. The Cartrifile is a tape drive that uses cartridges containing continuous-loop 1/4" tape in various lengths, much like 8-track tape though in slightly different packaging and with a fixed head. 10ips, 600bpi. (There's a brochure on Bitsavers at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/tridata/Tri-Data_4096_Brochure_Feb69.pdf) The unit I have has a PDP-8 compatible interface, though I only have the cabling and rear-bulkhead for posibus systems. (My 8/I is currently negibus, so some work will need to be done there.) It's in pretty decent shape and I think I should be able to get it to work again. I also have a stack of cartridges and it remains to be seen how they hold up. If they're anything like 8-track tapes, the EOT marker will probably fall off and the tape ends will need to be reconnected as well :). At minimum I hope to be able to recover the data off the tapes I have. Curious if anyone out there has one of these, has any spare parts, or interface parts (there was at one point an Omnibus interface available, and having the negibus interface would be extremely handy.) Thanks as always, Josh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 25 13:49:36 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 12:49:36 -0600 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech - text encoding In-Reply-To: <74889c74-7f8e-d413-df9b-74d5811d595f@jwsss.com> References: <352F01F5-E8FF-481F-8EBC-1BA807AC0F01@lunar-tokyo.net> <9D4BEB8A-1D44-4DA3-B697-A9BCEA395D1A@gmail.com> <74889c74-7f8e-d413-df9b-74d5811d595f@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 6/24/2020 12:06 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 6/24/2020 10:02 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: >> But I would strongly suggest that we limit it to using characters from >> the Baudot set. If not they don?t print right on my 1930 Teletype. > I can peruse the list on my Teletype ASR-32(s).? Can archive the list > with the 5 level paper tape (at least till the three rolls of tape run > out). > Well if you can trim the posts,and remove sigs,I bet you can don't need to buy more rolls until the next 5 years. Are there still places that sell paper tape and paper rolls? Ben. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Jun 25 15:15:50 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 13:15:50 -0700 Subject: Tri-Data Cartrifile parts/interfaces/tapes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/25/2020 11:18 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hi all -- > > I picked up a Tri-Data Cartrifile 4096 at VCF West last year and since I'm > suddenly going to have more time on my hands, I thought it'd be fun to see > if I can get it running again. The Cartrifile is a tape drive that uses > cartridges containing continuous-loop 1/4" tape in various lengths, much > like 8-track tape though in slightly different packaging and with a fixed > head. 10ips, 600bpi. (There's a brochure on Bitsavers at > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/tridata/Tri-Data_4096_Brochure_Feb69.pdf) > > The unit I have has a PDP-8 compatible interface, though I only have the > cabling and rear-bulkhead for posibus systems. (My 8/I is currently > negibus, so some work will need to be done there.) > > It's in pretty decent shape and I think I should be able to get it to work > again. I also have a stack of cartridges and it remains to be seen how > they hold up. If they're anything like 8-track tapes, the EOT marker will > probably fall off and the tape ends will need to be reconnected as well > :). At minimum I hope to be able to recover the data off the tapes I have. > > Curious if anyone out there has one of these, has any spare parts, or > interface parts (there was at one point an Omnibus interface available, and > having the negibus interface would be extremely handy.) > > Thanks as always, > Josh > I have (had somewhere) two of them.? Mine had I think unformatted NRZI interfaces.? I ran them on the same controller as the formatted 9 track 800bpi NRZI on my 1600 systems. I think I had one that had a different interface, but forget the details.? I had about half a dozen of the cartridges as well.? They worked well at the time, not sure how well the media would have aged, but I suspect similarly to any 8 track tape or 4 track audio tape if it doesn't shed. I'll keep an eye out, but you know my situation having moved may be a while if ever when I see them.?? I think they may be optical EOT BOT, but you may know already. Thanks Jim From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Jun 25 15:27:02 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 13:27:02 -0700 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech (comment on address fields) , capturing Discord server traffi In-Reply-To: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6597412e-3f18-b2cf-69ff-95cbc7ff3a24@jwsss.com> On 6/16/2020 5:21 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > With Jay retiring, what are the hosting plans for these mailing lists? > I have an observation for when the list migrates.? The current message "From" field contains the name of the original sender but with the encoded address of the list as the email address For example this has Al Kossow via cctalk Some email clients have a feature which try to automatically capture the "from" and add them to a local address book.? Thunderbird has 3 layers (at least) of address books.? The "discovered" email addresses as I describe here, the local address book if you use it with your manually added contacts, and finally if you sync it with an outside contact facility such as Google or another server. The addresses from these mailings end up with a number of captured entries in the local address books which don't point back at the actual sender, but to the list.? I've not had it happen many times, but you do have to watch using short names (like if I create an email to "al") that it gets the correct address. I don't recall what the list used to do, but I know there were changes made a few years ago which resulted in this. I don't have a criticism, just an observation to toss in to the mix once the list(s) are migrated to visit this.? I know Jay tore his hair out then, and appreciate this isn't a simple problem (maybe others too). I know Jay mentioned the Discord server which is very active, but I wish that it could be captured as an archive to be perused in the same way as the cctalk list (I have all the emails since I joined), the vcf list (searchable I think mostly by google).? These serve as a great resource, and I'm not sure that the discord server where such information is discussed is captured. thanks Jim From t.gardner at computer.org Thu Jun 25 15:55:30 2020 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 13:55:30 -0700 Subject: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers Message-ID: <000b01d64b32$f6fc34a0$e4f49de0$@computer.org> I'm trying to figure out what were the earliest Type numbers for 3M ?-inch reel-to-reel computer tape As best I can find, 3M began marketing a Type 777 computer tape about 1967. The Type 700 appears to be somewhat later. But 3M sold computer tape directly to at least government customers (e.g. NSA, Social Security) in the 1950s. The also notably OEMed tape to IBM who rebranded it under an IBM label until the late 1960s at which point with the help of Sony IBM began manufacturing its own computer tape. Anyone have any idea of the Type number for 3M computer tapes earlier than Type 777? There might be a place for some of these older Types at the CHM if anyone knows of any still in existence. Tom PS: There is a lot of information on 3M audio tape Type numbers as at http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/3mtape/aorprod-cust.pdf but computer tape seems to be an orphan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 25 16:14:43 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 14:14:43 -0700 Subject: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers In-Reply-To: <000b01d64b32$f6fc34a0$e4f49de0$@computer.org> References: <000b01d64b32$f6fc34a0$e4f49de0$@computer.org> Message-ID: <31df27f1-11bd-d2e6-1a00-39460aca37ab@sydex.com> On 6/25/20 1:55 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > I'm trying to figure out what were the earliest Type numbers for 3M ?-inch reel-to-reel computer tape > > As best I can find, 3M began marketing a Type 777 computer tape about 1967. The Type 700 appears to be somewhat later. But 3M sold computer tape directly to at least government customers (e.g. NSA, Social Security) in the 1950s. The also notably OEMed tape to IBM who rebranded it under an IBM label until the late 1960s at which point with the help of Sony IBM began manufacturing its own computer tape. > > Anyone have any idea of the Type number for 3M computer tapes earlier than Type 777? > > There might be a place for some of these older Types at the CHM if anyone knows of any still in existence. > > Tom > > PS: There is a lot of information on 3M audio tape Type numbers as at http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/3mtape/aorprod-cust.pdf but computer tape seems to be an orphan I probably do--but I'm going to have to look through my logs. Old 3M tape is terrible for binder that sticks to everything. Before processing the stuff, I have to lubricate it. --Chuck From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Jun 25 16:35:37 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 22:35:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech (comment on address fields) , capturing Discord server traffi In-Reply-To: <6597412e-3f18-b2cf-69ff-95cbc7ff3a24@jwsss.com> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <6597412e-3f18-b2cf-69ff-95cbc7ff3a24@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > I have an observation for when the list migrates.? The current message "From" > field contains the name of the original sender but with the encoded address of > the list as the email address > > For example this has > > Al Kossow via cctalk That has been a nuisance in many ways, however regrettably it seems the lesser evil in the current world of e-mail infested with DMARC, invented with little concern as to its impact on mailing lists. Sigh... Maciej From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 25 16:41:33 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 14:41:33 -0700 Subject: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers In-Reply-To: <31df27f1-11bd-d2e6-1a00-39460aca37ab@sydex.com> References: <000b01d64b32$f6fc34a0$e4f49de0$@computer.org> <31df27f1-11bd-d2e6-1a00-39460aca37ab@sydex.com> Message-ID: <213fdea3-92dd-675e-1068-a3976daa4b16@sydex.com> > On 6/25/20 1:55 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: Off the top of my head, I have processed a lot of 701 tape. Also, several reels of 4-digit tape (e.g. 8140. 8938). But again, I'd have to look through my logs. --Chuck From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Thu Jun 25 10:08:10 2020 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:08:10 +0100 Subject: The Old Calculator Museum - Oregon Message-ID: <00f401d64b02$7141be00$53c53a00$@vanpeborgh.eu> Guys, I seem to have lost contact with Rick Bensene of that museum for the last 10 days. Can anyone tell me if he is ok? Many thanks, peter From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Thu Jun 25 11:36:35 2020 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 19:36:35 +0300 Subject: Zaiaz 933 Clipper board Message-ID: Hello, Recently acquired such board and would like to ask if someone has any documentation or/and software for it. Regards, Plamen From sieler at allegro.com Thu Jun 25 17:14:36 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 15:14:36 -0700 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program Message-ID: Hi, Not hardware ... but an antique software / programming concept. Some decades ago (circa late 1970s?), I *think* I came across a concept of "raising the semantic level" of a program by using defines/macros and newly written library functions. The concept was that a given language provided a particular level of semantics. By judicious/clever use of things like macros, one could "raise" the level of semantics, effectively appearing to add new features to the language (or, in this case, the instance of the language as used in the program). I *thought* I got that concept from Terry Wingrad's excellent "Breaking the Complexity Barrier again" (Nov, 1974, https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/951761.951764 ) ...but, no. It's not in that paper. Does the concept ring a bell? Can anyone provide a pointer to where I might have seen it? It's formed the basis of my own personal programming philosophy for nearly 50 years, and I want to know where I found it, or if I might have thought of it myself. thanks! Stan From dave.dunfield at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 17:14:33 2020 From: dave.dunfield at gmail.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:14:33 -0400 Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! Message-ID: Sorry, can't respond easily because I read the list on the web, can't deal with the flood of email from it, and can't respond via the web interface. >I'm not clear on what "duplicate" really means. Perhaps you can clarify >things for me. > >Duplicate in name and/or size? >Duplicate in content? > >There are lots of duplicate file finders for Windows and some of them >are quite sophisticated, being able to compare the content of files with >different encodings and provide "almost the same" type of information. Duplicate means exact duplicate size and contect, name does not matter. (I copied lots of stuff around, sometimes renaming it and want to find all the dups). Yeah, lots of nifty tools, but I needed one where I could easily control what it looks and and process it's results (text files). Also had to deal with VERY large sets of data (terabytes) and do it all in a fairly reasonable time. So I just wrote one. I'm a bit unusual that way - tend to write stuff that does exactly what I need instead of trying to use something that sort of comes close but often also does a lot I don't want. >Downloading http://dunfield.maknonsolutions.com/dos/sw/ddw2020.zip >gets flagged by Windows Defender on Windows 10 Pro (1909) >as "Worm:Win32/Spybot". Not for me, it's something I compiled from my own source myself, is packed with UPX - maybe Windows Def doesn't like that but it raises no alarms on the Win7 Pro system I'm testing on. Have no control of Windows Defender .. just one of many reasons I don't use Windows much. Not the first time good clean code of my own has triggered false alarms. FWIW, I just downloaded DDW2020.ZIP from the site, and it exactly matches my original one. Contents also exactly match my original files, here is a DIR listing: Directory of R:\DDW2020 2020-06-24 09:08 PM 3,255 DDW2020.TXT 2020-06-24 09:08 PM 23,584 DFF.EXE 2020-06-24 09:08 PM 23,584 EDT.EXE 2020-06-24 09:08 PM 31,907 EDT.TXT 2020-06-24 09:08 PM 6,688 FDF.EXE 2020-06-24 09:08 PM 9,760 VLT.EXE 6 File(s) 98,778 bytes Note, Windows did warn me that this file is not commonly downloaded and wanted to "discard" it, but I used "Keep" - no defender or antivirus alarms triggered. Dave PS: Noticed and fixed the spelling of "Download" - may need to reload to see due to browser cache. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Personal site: http://dunfield.maknonsolutions.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 17:30:35 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:30:35 -0600 Subject: Future of cctalk/cctech (comment on address fields) , capturing Discord server traffi In-Reply-To: <6597412e-3f18-b2cf-69ff-95cbc7ff3a24@jwsss.com> References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <6597412e-3f18-b2cf-69ff-95cbc7ff3a24@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 2:27 PM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The current message > "From" field contains the name of the original sender but with the > encoded address of the list as the email address > Unfortunately now there's no practical way for a mailing list to avoid rewriting the From header to indicate that the messages are sent from the list. If you don't do that, many (or most) mail servers (MTAs) will silently drop the mail due to DKIM/SPF/DMARC failures. If I send mail from foo at example.com to a classiccmp.org list, and then the list sends it to all the subscribers _without_ rewriting the From header, many (or most) receiving MTAs will find that the message fails origin verification because classiccmp.org can't be validated as a legitimate SMTP originator for email from example.com. I'm surprised that use of an "X-Original-From" header or similar isn't commonly used to work around this. Possibly people may think that it would help spammers harvest email addresses, but it wouldn't make the harvesting problem any worse than it was before From rewriting. Some list software puts the entire original From address in the comment part of the rewritten From header, rather than only the comment part of the original. From mechanic_2 at charter.net Thu Jun 25 17:35:28 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 17:35:28 -0500 Subject: Arcnet cards and lost emails! In-Reply-To: References: <7b84235c-f935-2eff-1505-0f4049aeb2aa@bitsavers.org> <6597412e-3f18-b2cf-69ff-95cbc7ff3a24@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5EF526B0.2030103@charter.net> Hello all, I had a HDD failure and I lost all of my emails going back 3 years. There was a gentleman that was looking for Arcnet cards. Could you please recontact me? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 25 18:36:36 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:36:36 -0700 Subject: VAX /785 docs In-Reply-To: <3ffe0a80-5414-b810-ea43-2f39bc9fd490@bitsavers.org> References: <20200612164649.C9CA518C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3ffe0a80-5414-b810-ea43-2f39bc9fd490@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 6/12/20 10:45 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 6/12/20 9:46 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> /785 docs are very rare (Bitsvers only has prints) >> so a VAX person should grab this and then scan them. > > done.. though I really shouldn't be spending money right now > > Just uploaded the scan to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/785 Unfortunately it is the users manual and not the CPU technical manual From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 25 18:37:24 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: History In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://xkcd.com/2324/ As accurate as most other versions of history. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 25 19:14:58 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 20:14:58 -0400 Subject: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers In-Reply-To: <31df27f1-11bd-d2e6-1a00-39460aca37ab@sydex.com> References: <000b01d64b32$f6fc34a0$e4f49de0$@computer.org> <31df27f1-11bd-d2e6-1a00-39460aca37ab@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56CFEC76-658D-4A6A-BE04-BA224F586590@comcast.net> > On Jun 25, 2020, at 5:14 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/25/20 1:55 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: >> I'm trying to figure out what were the earliest Type numbers for 3M ?-inch reel-to-reel computer tape >> >> As best I can find, 3M began marketing a Type 777 computer tape about 1967. The Type 700 appears to be somewhat later. But 3M sold computer tape directly to at least government customers (e.g. NSA, Social Security) in the 1950s. The also notably OEMed tape to IBM who rebranded it under an IBM label until the late 1960s at which point with the help of Sony IBM began manufacturing its own computer tape. >> >> Anyone have any idea of the Type number for 3M computer tapes earlier than Type 777? >> >> There might be a place for some of these older Types at the CHM if anyone knows of any still in existence. >> >> Tom >> >> PS: There is a lot of information on 3M audio tape Type numbers as at http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/3mtape/aorprod-cust.pdf but computer tape seems to be an orphan > I probably do--but I'm going to have to look through my logs. Old 3M > tape is terrible for binder that sticks to everything. Before > processing the stuff, I have to lubricate it. Except for DECtape, of course. That's 3M 340 or 341, the spec (from Nov 1966) is here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/3M_DECtape_Spec_Nov66.pdf paul From w2hx at w2hx.com Thu Jun 25 17:29:08 2020 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 22:29:08 +0000 Subject: IDE Hard Drive Question Message-ID: Hi friends, Sorry for the long email that follows: I am working with an old military PC model SAIC V2LC. The PC is a 486 and is from around 1992 give or take a couple of years. Probably 1995 latest. The computer has one 3.5" floppy and a removable IDE hard drive in a removable carrier. It also seems to have a SCSI controller, but I would have to see what that is all about as the BIOS does not show anything about that so it may require a driver that I may be unlikely to find. Some pictures: https://w2hx.com/x/SAIC%20V2LC/1.JPG https://w2hx.com/x/SAIC%20V2LC/7.JPG https://w2hx.com/x/SAIC%20V2LC/9.JPG https://w2hx.com/x/SAIC%20V2LC/10.JPG IDE HD and carrier, the hard drive in the carrier is a Conner CFS540A: https://w2hx.com/x/SAIC%20V2LC/20200124_094111.jpg https://w2hx.com/x/SAIC%20V2LC/20200124_094131.jpg https://w2hx.com/x/SAIC%20V2LC/20200124_094115.jpg https://w2hx.com/x/SAIC%20V2LC/20200124_094118.jpg https://w2hx.com/x/SAIC%20V2LC/20200124_094105.jpg I purchased this SD-IDE converter to replace the failing (failed) hard drive. I got a 40 pin converter because I saw that the conner CFS540A uses 40 pins. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07G29TZPS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I received the converter and went to remove the hard drive from the carrier and saw something surprising. It appears that 4 wires from the computer are connected not to the 40 pin IDE connector, but directly to the hard drive in the center piece (is this the motor? Voice coil? I don't know). https://w2hx.com/x/SAIC%20V2LC/0625201552.jpg https://w2hx.com/x/SAIC%20V2LC/0625201605.jpg Does ANYONE have any idea what these 4 wires are connected to and why? And anyone give any odds about whether these 4 wires will prevent this IDE-SD converter from working? Any and all suggestions/advice welcome. 73 Eugene W2HX From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jun 25 18:12:56 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:12:56 -0500 Subject: IDE Hard Drive Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EF52F78.7010701@pico-systems.com> On 06/25/2020 05:29 PM, W2HX via cctech wrote: > Does ANYONE have any idea what these 4 wires are connected to and why? And anyone give any odds about whether these 4 wires will prevent this IDE-SD converter from working? > > Temperature sensor and heater. Undoubtedly for start-up in extreme cold conditions. Jon From engwalljonathanthereal at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 18:42:15 2020 From: engwalljonathanthereal at gmail.com (Jonathan Engwall) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:42:15 -0700 Subject: IDE Hard Drive Question In-Reply-To: <5EF52F78.7010701@pico-systems.com> References: <5EF52F78.7010701@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: You'll look for pins on the board to instruct the drives which will be reading and which will be writing. That is my guess. Both need to work and have empty space. Probably the machine booted directly from some type of PXE, but maybe not. This gives you a hint: https://w2hx.com/x/SAIC%20V2LC/20200124_094105.jpg It must power up, that is a good sign. Good luck. On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 4:13 PM Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > On 06/25/2020 05:29 PM, W2HX via cctech wrote: > > Does ANYONE have any idea what these 4 wires are connected to and why? > And anyone give any odds about whether these 4 wires will prevent this > IDE-SD converter from working? > > > > > Temperature sensor and heater. Undoubtedly for start-up in > extreme cold conditions. > > Jon > From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 01:44:13 2020 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 08:44:13 +0200 Subject: History In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 01:37, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > https://xkcd.com/2324/ > > > As accurate as most other versions of history. Finally I know where "pull request" comes from From tsg at bonedaddy.net Fri Jun 26 05:35:20 2020 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 06:35:20 -0400 Subject: VAX /785 docs In-Reply-To: References: <20200612164649.C9CA518C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3ffe0a80-5414-b810-ea43-2f39bc9fd490@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 6/25/2020 7:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 6/12/20 10:45 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 6/12/20 9:46 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> /785 docs are very rare (Bitsvers only has prints) >>> so a VAX person should grab this and then scan them. >> >> done.. though I really shouldn't be spending money right now >> >> > > Just uploaded the scan to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/785 > Unfortunately it is the users manual and not the CPU technical manual > Thank you Al!! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 26 01:20:48 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 23:20:48 -0700 Subject: IDE Hard Drive Question In-Reply-To: <5EF52F78.7010701@pico-systems.com> References: <5EF52F78.7010701@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <0ee3f073-682e-e3db-82ff-4ded06507a9b@sydex.com> On 6/25/20 4:12 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > On 06/25/2020 05:29 PM, W2HX via cctech wrote: >> Does ANYONE have any idea what these 4 wires are connected to and why? >> And anyone give any odds about whether these 4 wires will prevent this >> IDE-SD converter from working? >> >> > Temperature sensor and heater.? Undoubtedly for start-up in extreme cold > conditions. Certainly looks like that to me also. Sits right atop the spindle motor. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Jun 26 01:59:42 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 23:59:42 -0700 Subject: IDE Hard Drive Question In-Reply-To: <0ee3f073-682e-e3db-82ff-4ded06507a9b@sydex.com> References: <5EF52F78.7010701@pico-systems.com> <0ee3f073-682e-e3db-82ff-4ded06507a9b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 6/25/2020 11:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > On 6/25/20 4:12 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: >> On 06/25/2020 05:29 PM, W2HX via cctech wrote: >>> Does ANYONE have any idea what these 4 wires are connected to and why? >>> And anyone give any odds about whether these 4 wires will prevent this >>> IDE-SD converter from working? >>> >>> >> Temperature sensor and heater.? Undoubtedly for start-up in extreme cold >> conditions. > Certainly looks like that to me also. Sits right atop the spindle motor. > > --Chuck > The drive spec I found for the Conner cfs540a (this drive) shows an operating range of 5c to 55c. The top of the range is useful for mil operations, but the 5c spec would be bad if you ran the drive. Full military just a casual google says is -55c, and extended industrial is -40c on the bottom.? We did -40 specs for some of our projects, but nothing mechanical. The are at -40c to 60c for nonoperating, so would be close to the low range if they could heat the spindle, and let the drive heat itself up. One issue might be that the sensor will heat up this dongle and allow the thing to run, but there may be a provision to spin the drive before it is expected to run.? A heat up or warmup feature might be performed besides what Jon suggested with the heater / sensor. I suspect this thing has to heat up and be at temp before something in the bios or otherwise allows the drive to run. The OP might look around and see if there are any of the heater strips around as well, to allow heating in the drive box as needed. I may have one of these systems with some extra drives, and the good news is they guy I bought them from if mine are the same or of similar spec, is that he was putting drives in the boxes from random drive buys and they were easy to run.? He didn't recall the spindle dongle on his drive pods though. I'm waiting to hear for sure if the fellow I bought mine from remembers the manufacturer.? The system and an auxiliary box of similar size with more pods came in a deal I couldn't pass up.? My box has got a 486 motherboard and functional 10baseT card running in it.? I plan to use one of the pods to do one of these as solid state to save runtime on the physical disks. spec I used at: ftp://ftp.seagate.com/techsuppt/seagate_utils/allconnr.pdf From shadoooo at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 05:55:48 2020 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 12:55:48 +0200 Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, this tool is really similar to "rdfind", which compares file sizes and content, independently from file name, and is able to create a list of correspondence, delete duplicate files, and create symbolic links to the single instance. This can work on large amounts of files, even on complex directory tree. Andrea From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jun 26 08:25:51 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 13:25:51 +0000 Subject: IDE Hard Drive Question In-Reply-To: References: <5EF52F78.7010701@pico-systems.com> <0ee3f073-682e-e3db-82ff-4ded06507a9b@sydex.com>, Message-ID: I'd measure the temperature sensor. It is most likely a typical thermistor but may be an RTD. Most RTD's are 100 ohm but there are some platinum on ceramic that are 1K ohms. Check it both directions with an ohm meter. It might be a solid state semiconductor type device. If a resistive device, it can likely be replaced by a resistor. If it is 10K thermistor or whatever just replace it with a fixed resistor. Put it in the fridge for a few minutes to see if it is a negative or positive temperature coefficient. Once you know that it should be easy to use a value of resistor that would tell it that is was at a happy 20c. You can likely leave the heater leads open. The temperature sensor is the small black thing. I doubt it is a thermal switch but it might be. It is most likely to be around specific resistances of 10 ohms, 100, 1K or 10K. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of jim stephens via cctalk Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 11:59 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: IDE Hard Drive Question On 6/25/2020 11:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > On 6/25/20 4:12 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: >> On 06/25/2020 05:29 PM, W2HX via cctech wrote: >>> Does ANYONE have any idea what these 4 wires are connected to and why? >>> And anyone give any odds about whether these 4 wires will prevent this >>> IDE-SD converter from working? >>> >>> >> Temperature sensor and heater. Undoubtedly for start-up in extreme cold >> conditions. > Certainly looks like that to me also. Sits right atop the spindle motor. > > --Chuck > The drive spec I found for the Conner cfs540a (this drive) shows an operating range of 5c to 55c. The top of the range is useful for mil operations, but the 5c spec would be bad if you ran the drive. Full military just a casual google says is -55c, and extended industrial is -40c on the bottom. We did -40 specs for some of our projects, but nothing mechanical. The are at -40c to 60c for nonoperating, so would be close to the low range if they could heat the spindle, and let the drive heat itself up. One issue might be that the sensor will heat up this dongle and allow the thing to run, but there may be a provision to spin the drive before it is expected to run. A heat up or warmup feature might be performed besides what Jon suggested with the heater / sensor. I suspect this thing has to heat up and be at temp before something in the bios or otherwise allows the drive to run. The OP might look around and see if there are any of the heater strips around as well, to allow heating in the drive box as needed. I may have one of these systems with some extra drives, and the good news is they guy I bought them from if mine are the same or of similar spec, is that he was putting drives in the boxes from random drive buys and they were easy to run. He didn't recall the spindle dongle on his drive pods though. I'm waiting to hear for sure if the fellow I bought mine from remembers the manufacturer. The system and an auxiliary box of similar size with more pods came in a deal I couldn't pass up. My box has got a 486 motherboard and functional 10baseT card running in it. I plan to use one of the pods to do one of these as solid state to save runtime on the physical disks. spec I used at: ftp://ftp.seagate.com/techsuppt/seagate_utils/allconnr.pdf From dave.dunfield at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 11:14:34 2020 From: dave.dunfield at gmail.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 12:14:34 -0400 Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! Message-ID: >this tool is really similar to "rdfind", which compares file sizes and >content, independently from file name, and is able to create a list of >correspondence, delete duplicate files, and create symbolic links to the >single instance. >This can work on large amounts of files, even on complex directory tree. Sounds good, don't know that I saw that one (tend not to look too hard as I enjoy creating stuff, and what I do is usually smaller, easier to use - at least for me - and more reliable). Didn't want to go into a lot of detail as this isn't exactly classic computer related.. although I expect a lot of classic collectors are like me and have use for it. Couple things I implemented in DFF which I don't know of in other tools: It uses an "index" file - first attempt just used the output of windows: DIR/S but I found it got big and unworkable fast, and changed from one version of windows to another. DFF creates its own which is small and consistent, having only the DIR names, and file sizes + names. This is normally a temp file, but you can Keep it, just Build it without processing, and process it later. You can also have DFF append to it so you can deal with as complex dir structure as you like, by /BAing it in various places. It can deal with files in arbitrary directory trees on multiple drives quite easily. You can also have it place and END marker in the file, which means that anything you append will be treated differently. Anything before the END marker is scanned and reported as you expect. After the END marker, files are considered as possible duplicates, but not checked and reported separately. And since the "index" file is a text file, you can add to it, change it and retrieve it's content very easily - you don't need special programs provided by the tool maker to do unusual things. Same is true for it's output. You can also have it list: - All files (dups have a dup instance number see below) - Only duplicate files - Only single files - Under each directory, you can get it to list where all the duplicates are (full path) This combined with the END marker makes some fairly powerful things possible. (Show me any files occurring here which are not also occurring there). Each instance of duplication is assigned a unique "duplicate instance" number which is shown next to all files which are part of that "duplicate instance". I thought about an automatic "delete duplicates" feature but didn't implement it as I am organizing a lot of data, much is duplicated, it's final resting place may not be one of the original locations and I want control over how the final archive is organized. Dave -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Personal site: http://dunfield.maknonsolutions.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From t.gardner at computer.org Fri Jun 26 12:46:10 2020 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 10:46:10 -0700 Subject: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers In-Reply-To: <56CFEC76-658D-4A6A-BE04-BA224F586590@comcast.net> References: <000b01d64b32$f6fc34a0$e4f49de0$@computer.org> <31df27f1-11bd-d2e6-1a00-39460aca37ab@sydex.com> <56CFEC76-658D-4A6A-BE04-BA224F586590@comcast.net> Message-ID: <008401d64be1$b5c1f380$2145da80$@computer.org> Paul Thanks, I had found this ad a while ago but thought it was ?-inch. Upon careful reading all the notes I found, "Errors per roll based on recording 7 tracks on rolls ?" x 2500'. " It looks like 3M may have called their computer tapes "Instrumentation" tape until the late 60s Tom -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkoning at comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 5:15 PM To: Chuck Guzis; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers > On Jun 25, 2020, at 5:14 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/25/20 1:55 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: >> I'm trying to figure out what were the earliest Type numbers for 3M >> -inch reel-to-reel computer tape >> >> As best I can find, 3M began marketing a Type 777 computer tape about 1967. The Type 700 appears to be somewhat later. But 3M sold computer tape directly to at least government customers (e.g. NSA, Social Security) in the 1950s. The also notably OEMed tape to IBM who rebranded it under an IBM label until the late 1960s at which point with the help of Sony IBM began manufacturing its own computer tape. >> >> Anyone have any idea of the Type number for 3M computer tapes earlier than Type 777? >> >> There might be a place for some of these older Types at the CHM if anyone knows of any still in existence. >> >> Tom >> >> PS: There is a lot of information on 3M audio tape Type numbers as >> at http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/3mtape/aorprod-cust.pdf but computer >> tape seems to be an orphan > I probably do--but I'm going to have to look through my logs. Old 3M > tape is terrible for binder that sticks to everything. Before > processing the stuff, I have to lubricate it. Except for DECtape, of course. That's 3M 340 or 341, the spec (from Nov 1966) is here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/3M_DECtape_Spec_Nov66.pdf paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jun 26 13:44:03 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 14:44:03 -0400 Subject: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers In-Reply-To: <008401d64be1$b5c1f380$2145da80$@computer.org> References: <000b01d64b32$f6fc34a0$e4f49de0$@computer.org> <31df27f1-11bd-d2e6-1a00-39460aca37ab@sydex.com> <56CFEC76-658D-4A6A-BE04-BA224F586590@comcast.net> <008401d64be1$b5c1f380$2145da80$@computer.org> Message-ID: > On Jun 26, 2020, at 1:46 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: > > Paul > > Thanks, I had found this ad a while ago but thought it was ?-inch. Upon careful reading all the notes I found, "Errors per roll based on recording 7 tracks on rolls ?" x 2500'. " > > It looks like 3M may have called their computer tapes "Instrumentation" tape until the late 60s > > Tom "Instrumentation tape" sounds like a reference to instrumentation recorders, which were devices used to record N channels of analog data. Typically this was done by FM-modulating that data for the actual recording process. I've seen references to heads for such machines in widths from 1/4 inch to 2 inches depending on the number of channels needed. I believe instrumentation tape was usually supplied on reels that look like professional audio tape reels -- metal flanged reels with hubs somewhat larger than a standard computer tape hub, with 3 small notches. Some early computers used tape like that for data recording; for example, the Electrologica X1 used 1/2 inch instrumentation tape reels, recording data at 400 DPI (NRZI I think) in 10 (!) tracks. Those were vaguely like DECtape -- random access rewritable blocks -- but with variable rather than fixed length blocks. Recovering data from such reels is an interesting problem today. paul From w2hx at w2hx.com Fri Jun 26 16:27:20 2020 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 21:27:20 +0000 Subject: IDE Hard Drive Question In-Reply-To: References: <5EF52F78.7010701@pico-systems.com> <0ee3f073-682e-e3db-82ff-4ded06507a9b@sydex.com>, Message-ID: <321dc784e2f04ced98b21efe7e05088b@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Thank you EVERYONE. Yes I confirmed that the red disc is a heater and the little device on the side is a temp sensor. All is good. I will send a new email out with some new questions but wanted to tie off this discussion with thanks to all Eugene -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of dwight via cctalk Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 9:26 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IDE Hard Drive Question I'd measure the temperature sensor. It is most likely a typical thermistor but may be an RTD. Most RTD's are 100 ohm but there are some platinum on ceramic that are 1K ohms. Check it both directions with an ohm meter. It might be a solid state semiconductor type device. If a resistive device, it can likely be replaced by a resistor. If it is 10K thermistor or whatever just replace it with a fixed resistor. Put it in the fridge for a few minutes to see if it is a negative or positive temperature coefficient. Once you know that it should be easy to use a value of resistor that would tell it that is was at a happy 20c. You can likely leave the heater leads open. The temperature sensor is the small black thing. I doubt it is a thermal switch but it might be. It is most likely to be around specific resistances of 10 ohms, 100, 1K or 10K. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of jim stephens via cctalk Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 11:59 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: IDE Hard Drive Question On 6/25/2020 11:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > On 6/25/20 4:12 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: >> On 06/25/2020 05:29 PM, W2HX via cctech wrote: >>> Does ANYONE have any idea what these 4 wires are connected to and why? >>> And anyone give any odds about whether these 4 wires will prevent >>> this IDE-SD converter from working? >>> >>> >> Temperature sensor and heater. Undoubtedly for start-up in extreme >> cold conditions. > Certainly looks like that to me also. Sits right atop the spindle motor. > > --Chuck > The drive spec I found for the Conner cfs540a (this drive) shows an operating range of 5c to 55c. The top of the range is useful for mil operations, but the 5c spec would be bad if you ran the drive. Full military just a casual google says is -55c, and extended industrial is -40c on the bottom. We did -40 specs for some of our projects, but nothing mechanical. The are at -40c to 60c for nonoperating, so would be close to the low range if they could heat the spindle, and let the drive heat itself up. One issue might be that the sensor will heat up this dongle and allow the thing to run, but there may be a provision to spin the drive before it is expected to run. A heat up or warmup feature might be performed besides what Jon suggested with the heater / sensor. I suspect this thing has to heat up and be at temp before something in the bios or otherwise allows the drive to run. The OP might look around and see if there are any of the heater strips around as well, to allow heating in the drive box as needed. I may have one of these systems with some extra drives, and the good news is they guy I bought them from if mine are the same or of similar spec, is that he was putting drives in the boxes from random drive buys and they were easy to run. He didn't recall the spindle dongle on his drive pods though. I'm waiting to hear for sure if the fellow I bought mine from remembers the manufacturer. The system and an auxiliary box of similar size with more pods came in a deal I couldn't pass up. My box has got a 486 motherboard and functional 10baseT card running in it. I plan to use one of the pods to do one of these as solid state to save runtime on the physical disks. spec I used at: ftp://ftp.seagate.com/techsuppt/seagate_utils/allconnr.pdf From sieler at allegro.com Fri Jun 26 19:20:19 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 17:20:19 -0700 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program Message-ID: A friend kindly searched and found an interesting paper from 1973, Programming by semantic refinement JB Morris - ACM SIGPLAN Notices, 1973 - dl.acm.org. https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/390014.808298 While an interesting paper, it's going the opposite direction (essentially, going from an English language description down to a final programming language). But, using the L1 (highest level language), L2, ..., Ln (lowest level language) concept, I can phrase my concept better ... so ... Most programmers write at, say, the level of L3. They might write something like: mem [foo].head = something My "raising the semantic level" would be: #define HEAD(x). mem [x].head ... HEAD (foo) = something With a fair set of macros like that (HEAD, TAIL, etc), the program is now effectively written in a "new" language, L2 (a higher level language than L1). Being written in L2, the resulting code is more readable to everyone, partially because they aren't continually seeing the implementation of how ".head" / "mem" work/interact. In effect, the programmer has added a feature (linked list handling, perhaps) to L3 ... for that particular program, seemingly extending/raising the level of the language. It's that concept that I thought I saw sometime in the early 1970s :) thanks, Stan From doc at vaxen.net Fri Jun 26 14:53:48 2020 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 14:53:48 -0500 Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: <4c5c67e1-1f16-f3fb-44d6-6a2984b43a23@gmail.com> References: <202006091454.059Ess5A40763448@floodgap.com> <6B09E0DC-EDB7-44BB-9950-8EF0907921EE@avanthar.com> <4c5c67e1-1f16-f3fb-44d6-6a2984b43a23@gmail.com> Message-ID: <180de723-ef39-89f7-8c19-1be201f57c96@vaxen.net> On 6/10/20 5:10 PM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote: >> >> That is crazy. To buy something to "mark to market" the price real >> high ... you would still have to pay the crazy eBay fees. > > Yeah, it's weird. Mind you I was doing some poking around and A4000 > desktop/tower parts prices seem to generally be insanely high across the > board. There are a bunch of new-production Amiga motherboard PCBs available now, and they all require the original Amiga custom chips. Individual IC prices are higher than I've ever seen them and they're suddenly very scarce. Even dead-dead-dead and stripped A3000 and A4000 boards are suddenly valuable for the slot hardware That's also why empty cases are going so high. ObBragALittle: I just got my "Floppy209" Rev6.2 A2000 PCB this week, and I am stoked. I have an old 2000 that looks like it was stored on its side (the wrong side) when the battery went. All the logic is good, except the CPU, but several of the card connectors are rotted underneath. This PCB is a gift from the universe! ObWifeQuote: Just looks like 4 square feet of expensive holes. Doc From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Jun 26 16:42:54 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 14:42:54 -0700 Subject: Restarting Old Amiga's In-Reply-To: <180de723-ef39-89f7-8c19-1be201f57c96@vaxen.net> References: <202006091454.059Ess5A40763448@floodgap.com> <6B09E0DC-EDB7-44BB-9950-8EF0907921EE@avanthar.com> <4c5c67e1-1f16-f3fb-44d6-6a2984b43a23@gmail.com> <180de723-ef39-89f7-8c19-1be201f57c96@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On Jun 26, 2020, at 12:53 PM, Doc Shipley via cctech wrote: > > Even dead-dead-dead and stripped A3000 and A4000 boards are suddenly valuable for the slot hardware > > That's also why empty cases are going so high. > > ObBragALittle: I just got my "Floppy209" Rev6.2 A2000 PCB this week, and I am stoked. I have an old 2000 that looks like it was stored on its side (the wrong side) when the battery went. All the logic is good, except the CPU, but several of the card connectors are rotted underneath. This PCB is a gift from the universe! > > ObWifeQuote: Just looks like 4 square feet of expensive holes. Fed-Ex was supposed to be delivering my parts from Wales today, I doubt that?s happening. Even if I don?t get them, I?m planning to do the tear-down on my two A3000?s this weekend, due to the weather forecast. The batteries don?t look that bad, I?m hoping the underside is okay. I?ve been having fun with the A1200, and can?t wait to get the parts to add CF-to-IDE adapters to it and the A600. I think my wife and kids think I?ve lost it. Zane From w2hx at w2hx.com Fri Jun 26 16:39:57 2020 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 21:39:57 +0000 Subject: IDE-SD adapter question Message-ID: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Hi all, Thanks for previous help on this project. I am working on an old 486 computer and I have replaced a 40 pin IDE hard drive with this SD adapter... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07G29TZPS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 In general it seems to mostly be working. I can see a directory listing of several thousands files located on a 2GB SD card from yesteryear. The SD card was new when I installed it (has been in my possession for years). However, I do get errors "sector not found" and if I A)bort I get INT 24 error. I am trying to get windows 95 installed and this is certainly preventing that. In the BIOS settings I have the hard drive set as "USER" and these parameters: CY:[1024] HD:[16] ST:[63] LZ:[1024] WP:[0] These were the parameters in use while I was still using the actual hard drive. Question 1: Now that I am using an SD card instead of an IDE drive, what, if anything, should I be doing with these BIOS parameters? Question 2: The BIOS has an option to format the hard drive. Should I format the SD card using this facility? I did not explicitly put a filesystem on that SD card. I placed it in a windows 7 machine, it was recognized, and I began copying files to it. I then place the SD card into the 486 machine where I saw the sector not found errors. Any advice how to proceed? Thanks Eugene From rich.cini at verizon.net Fri Jun 26 17:08:13 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 22:08:13 +0000 Subject: IDE-SD adapter question In-Reply-To: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: Off hand, I wonder if the 486 doesn?t support logical block addressing in the BIOS (or its not enabled). Modern machines (and those of a Windows 95 vintage) do not use CHS addressing (cylinder, head, sector) any longer. SD cards usually don?t return Sector errors because of the dynamic remapping the firmware does. Rich Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of W2HX via cctech Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 5:39:57 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: IDE-SD adapter question Hi all, Thanks for previous help on this project. I am working on an old 486 computer and I have replaced a 40 pin IDE hard drive with this SD adapter... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07G29TZPS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 In general it seems to mostly be working. I can see a directory listing of several thousands files located on a 2GB SD card from yesteryear. The SD card was new when I installed it (has been in my possession for years). However, I do get errors "sector not found" and if I A)bort I get INT 24 error. I am trying to get windows 95 installed and this is certainly preventing that. In the BIOS settings I have the hard drive set as "USER" and these parameters: CY:[1024] HD:[16] ST:[63] LZ:[1024] WP:[0] These were the parameters in use while I was still using the actual hard drive. Question 1: Now that I am using an SD card instead of an IDE drive, what, if anything, should I be doing with these BIOS parameters? Question 2: The BIOS has an option to format the hard drive. Should I format the SD card using this facility? I did not explicitly put a filesystem on that SD card. I placed it in a windows 7 machine, it was recognized, and I began copying files to it. I then place the SD card into the 486 machine where I saw the sector not found errors. Any advice how to proceed? Thanks Eugene From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Jun 26 17:14:47 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 00:14:47 +0200 Subject: IDE-SD adapter question In-Reply-To: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: <20200626221447.GA13432@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 09:39:57PM +0000, W2HX via cctech wrote: > Thanks for previous help on this project. I am working on an old 486 computer > and I have replaced a 40 pin IDE hard drive with this SD adapter... > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07G29TZPS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 [...] > Question 1: Now that I am using an SD card instead of an IDE drive, what, if > anything, should I be doing with these BIOS parameters? The description of that adaptor says "Attention: Some of the mother board required to enable LBA mode and disable DMA transfer mode." This suggests to me that it does not support CHS addressing, and as the Engrish says, you need to use LBA mode instead. If your motherboard only supports CHS, you're likely to have a hard time getting many of these cheap adaptors to work with it. You might have better luck with Compact Flash, since the adaptors are passive and the CHS/LBA support (or lack thereof) is a function of the card, which is liable to be of better quality. From w2hx at w2hx.com Fri Jun 26 19:16:00 2020 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 00:16:00 +0000 Subject: IDE-SD adapter question In-Reply-To: References: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: <84e7e3876fdd4dabb628de4ac8e09cd7@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Could it be related to the fact that it is a 2GB SD card and I believe IDE controllers of that day could only address something like 500MB? Should I consider trying to partition the SD card into a 500MB partition? Eugene From: Richard Cini Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 6:08 PM To: W2HX ; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IDE-SD adapter question Off hand, I wonder if the 486 doesn't support logical block addressing in the BIOS (or its not enabled). Modern machines (and those of a Windows 95 vintage) do not use CHS addressing (cylinder, head, sector) any longer. SD cards usually don't return Sector errors because of the dynamic remapping the firmware does. Rich Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctech > on behalf of W2HX via cctech > Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 5:39:57 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: IDE-SD adapter question Hi all, Thanks for previous help on this project. I am working on an old 486 computer and I have replaced a 40 pin IDE hard drive with this SD adapter... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07G29TZPS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 In general it seems to mostly be working. I can see a directory listing of several thousands files located on a 2GB SD card from yesteryear. The SD card was new when I installed it (has been in my possession for years). However, I do get errors "sector not found" and if I A)bort I get INT 24 error. I am trying to get windows 95 installed and this is certainly preventing that. In the BIOS settings I have the hard drive set as "USER" and these parameters: CY:[1024] HD:[16] ST:[63] LZ:[1024] WP:[0] These were the parameters in use while I was still using the actual hard drive. Question 1: Now that I am using an SD card instead of an IDE drive, what, if anything, should I be doing with these BIOS parameters? Question 2: The BIOS has an option to format the hard drive. Should I format the SD card using this facility? I did not explicitly put a filesystem on that SD card. I placed it in a windows 7 machine, it was recognized, and I began copying files to it. I then place the SD card into the 486 machine where I saw the sector not found errors. Any advice how to proceed? Thanks Eugene From macro at linux-mips.org Fri Jun 26 20:14:36 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 02:14:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: IDE-SD adapter question In-Reply-To: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jun 2020, W2HX via cctech wrote: > Thanks for previous help on this project. I am working on an old 486 > computer and I have replaced a 40 pin IDE hard drive with this SD > adapter... > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07G29TZPS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 There is a worrisome note there about the requirement to use the LBA rather than CHS storage device addressing mode with the adapter. A PC BIOS that old may not support LBA. IIRC the two modes are told apart by a bit set in one of the ATA control registers used to select the sector to perform an operation on. If that bit is silently ignored by the adapter's firmware, then the storage device may appear to work, however CHS sector addresses presented by the PC BIOS will not correspond to LBA sector addresses interpreted by the firmware. Consequently things will undoubtedly break and data corruption will likely happen sooner or later, depending on whether the OS installed uses the PC BIOS interface or has its own driver using LBA. Also accesses to inexistent sectors may be attempted. An additional complication is that the PC BIOS CHS API, which predates ATA and has been designed with MFM and ESDI disks in mind, has a range mismatch with the ATA CHS API. Consequently the CHS sector range accessible via the PC BIOS is limited to the intersection of the two ranges. Once LBA support has become available in PC BIOS implementations for ATA storage devices a translation scheme was introduced so that the full range of the PC BIOS CHS API could be used by the OS. > In general it seems to mostly be working. I can see a directory listing > of several thousands files located on a 2GB SD card from yesteryear. The > SD card was new when I installed it (has been in my possession for > years). What OS do you use that works with the 2GB SD card correctly? > However, I do get errors "sector not found" and if I A)bort I get INT 24 > error. I am trying to get windows 95 installed and this is certainly > preventing that. INT 24 is the software interrupt invoked by DOS for I/O error recovery, the handler of which asks the user how to proceed. I gather you're using DOS then? > In the BIOS settings I have the hard drive set as "USER" and these parameters: > CY:[1024] HD:[16] ST:[63] LZ:[1024] WP:[0] > These were the parameters in use while I was still using the actual hard > drive. These are the intersection of the maximum values both the PC BIOS and ATA supported, which corresponds to 528MB (or 504MiB); for a 2GB ATA storage device that's the best you can do here. All but some very early ATA disks actually report their CHS configuration via the ATA IDENTIFY DEVICE command. Unfortunately it took years for PC BIOS implementers to discover the existence of that command and add an auto-detect feature. Software exists for various OSes that can retrieve and print ATA IDENTIFY DEVICE information in a human parseable format, e.g. with my non-LBA disk from 1993 I get: /dev/hda: ATA device, with non-removable media Model Number: Maxtor 7245 AT Serial Number: [...] Firmware Revision: 6ADF1E57 Standards: Likely used: 1 Configuration: hard sectored not MFM encoded head switch time > 15us fixed drive disk xfer rate > 5Mbs, <= 10Mbs format speed tolerance gap reqd Logical max current cylinders 967 967 heads 16 16 sectors/track 31 31 -- bytes/track: 19778 bytes/sector: 638 CHS current addressable sectors: 479632 device size with M = 1024*1024: 234 MBytes device size with M = 1000*1000: 245 MBytes Capabilities: no IORDY Buffer type: 0003: dual port, multi-sector with read caching ability Buffer size: 64.0kB bytes avail on r/w long: 11 Can perform double-word IO R/W multiple sector transfer: Max = 32 Current = ? DMA: sdma2 PIO: pio0 pio1 pio2 (this is output from the `hdparm -I' command on Linux). > Question 1: Now that I am using an SD card instead of an IDE drive, > what, if anything, should I be doing with these BIOS parameters? You will need them for the bootloader, which will use PC BIOS calls to load the OS, and possibly also the OS itself. Unless your PC BIOS does LBA this generally means you'll have to partition the boot storage device and keep the boot partition within the first 528MB of the device. The rest can be used as a second partition, provided that the OS has its own ATA driver and does not use the PC BIOS to access the device; otherwise it'll remain inaccessible. > Question 2: The BIOS has an option to format the hard drive. Should I > format the SD card using this facility? I doubt it. The operation was meant for magnetic media, to set up tracks and sectors across the device, like with floppy disks (DOS nomenclature, where formatting, depending on the context have meant both actual medium formatting and filesystem creation, or the latter only, caused further confusion). AFAIK for ATA devices a format command interface has never been standardised, though a FORMAT TRACK command code has been reserved. This was partially due to zone bit recording most (though not all) ATA disks used, however SCSI actually defined an interface also for ZBR disks, and I used it in the past (this was a way to set up a non-standard sector size some SCSI disks supported, in particular for RAID preparation with a hardware RAID controller). MFM and ESDI disks did support formatting normally as they didn't support ZBR and therefore the interface was straightforward, like with floppy media. > I did not explicitly put a filesystem on that SD card. I placed it in a > windows 7 machine, it was recognized, and I began copying files to it. I > then place the SD card into the 486 machine where I saw the sector not > found errors. Indeed that seems likely due to the mismatch between LBA and CHS addressing. Making a piece of software retrieve ATA IDENTIFY DEVICE information might help determining whether the adapter supports CHS addressing properly. If not, then you may have to find another adapter. HTH, Maciej From macro at linux-mips.org Fri Jun 26 20:59:18 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 02:59:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: IDE-SD adapter question In-Reply-To: <84e7e3876fdd4dabb628de4ac8e09cd7@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <84e7e3876fdd4dabb628de4ac8e09cd7@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 2020, W2HX via cctech wrote: > Could it be related to the fact that it is a 2GB SD card and I believe > IDE controllers of that day could only address something like 500MB? Except for a few sophisticated caching host bus adapters and ATA RAID controllers that presented their own software interface an ATA host bus adapter was essentially a pass-through device with an address decoder and a bunch of tri-state logic buffers. The IDE controller was (as the name suggested) integrated with the ATA device itself. Therefore all the simple ISA host bus adapters for ATA devices supported even the LBA48 mode as they did not interpret values passed through the control registers, which resided on the ATA device (similarly ATAPI support can work, which issues commands in the data stream rather than via the ATA command register). The limitation came from solely from the PC BIOS interface; once an OS has been booted that could drive ATA devices itself you could use the full capacity of any ATA device. Maciej From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 07:13:45 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 14:13:45 +0200 Subject: IDE-SD adapter question In-Reply-To: <84e7e3876fdd4dabb628de4ac8e09cd7@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <84e7e3876fdd4dabb628de4ac8e09cd7@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 at 02:30, W2HX via cctech wrote: > > Could it be related to the fact that it is a 2GB SD card and I believe IDE controllers of that day could only address something like 500MB? It could well be, yes. > Should I consider trying to partition the SD card into a 500MB partition? Won't help. It's at a level underneath partitioning. A disk manager might help. Here's a legit freeware download: https://www.philscomputerlab.com/ontrack-disk-manager.html This is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_Manager -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 27 09:49:17 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 14:49:17 +0000 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Stan It sounds a little like the way most good Forth programmers deal with problems. Forth is all about semantics. Every thing is a word. The complexity of the program is left to the low level stuff. When the program is done, it isn't a program written in Forth, it is a program written in the application. At the highest levels one should not see the language it was written in one should only see the application. Well written Forth at the upper levels has only : and ; of the language showing through. The rest are just the words in a sentence like structure telling what the application is doing. It is too bad that people insist on using languages that even at the highest level is still just a program in that particular language. All the boiler plate is still in the way of the program. Although, taking a little more time to get used to, Lisp is something like that as well. At least well written Lisp is. One can see what the intent is at the higher levels of coding. It is just learning to read the sentences. The lower level language part is how you move the bits and bytes around. The application should tell you what it does and why. Comments should only be needed at the more confusing lower levels. At the higher levels comments would and should be redundant. The words should tell you what is being done. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Stan Sieler via cctalk Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 3:14 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program Hi, Not hardware ... but an antique software / programming concept. Some decades ago (circa late 1970s?), I *think* I came across a concept of "raising the semantic level" of a program by using defines/macros and newly written library functions. The concept was that a given language provided a particular level of semantics. By judicious/clever use of things like macros, one could "raise" the level of semantics, effectively appearing to add new features to the language (or, in this case, the instance of the language as used in the program). I *thought* I got that concept from Terry Wingrad's excellent "Breaking the Complexity Barrier again" (Nov, 1974, https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/951761.951764 ) ...but, no. It's not in that paper. Does the concept ring a bell? Can anyone provide a pointer to where I might have seen it? It's formed the basis of my own personal programming philosophy for nearly 50 years, and I want to know where I found it, or if I might have thought of it myself. thanks! Stan From cube1 at charter.net Sat Jun 27 11:25:26 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 11:25:26 -0500 Subject: Accuracy of IBM Instructional Logic Diagrams Message-ID: <8b7bc601-3beb-592d-67bd-bf46eb92d121@charter.net> As part of my project to create a Field Programmable Gate Array implementation (FPGA) of the IBM 1410 Data Processing System based on Automated Logic Diagrams (ALDs), I decided to look at using the Instructional Logic Diagrams (ILDs) to guide my testing, rather than using the ALDs directly. The ILDs are written completely in ?positive logic?. Going in, I sort of expected a pretty imperfect match ? that the ILDs would not have all the signals, and be somewhat superficial in their treatment of the logic. For the IBM 1410, the circuits were: AND, OR, Inverter, Indicator (Lamp), Single Shot, Latch (Reset/Set), Trigger (Flip Flop) To my surprise I found that the ILDs are *VERY* accurate, and a great testing guide, providing a second view of the logic ? a kind of redundancy check against my entry of ALD data into my system. They are good enough that they have given me considerable confidence that I can use them to help ?fill in the blanks? related to the handful of ALD pages I am missing, and also for some of the IBM 1414 peripheral controllers for which I do not have ALDs. In 1962 IBM published an article in the IEEE Transactions ?Information Processing ? from Engineering Drawing to Manufacture? by R. K. Grim that describes how the data the ended up generated ALDs was entered and the ALDs produced, but it does not mention where the ILDs come from. They are definitely artwork ? not machine generated per se. The article did not address ILDs. I have corresponded with IBM to see if they might have, in their archives, the data from these 1960s era engineering systems, but it seems that they do not (or have lost the pointers to them.) It seems that the SMS automation was first done using an IBM 709, then they later added IBM 7090 and IBM 1401 systems (which of course could not have been there for the original design of the IBM 7090 and 1401, which used the SMS system), using tape files. The article also describes future plans to use a 1301 disk drive attached to an IBM 1410 for remote (tele-processing) access (which was supported by the IBM 1410-PR155 operating system. The accuracy of the ILDs is such that I expect that they evolved along with the design of the machine and entry of the data used for the ALDs. I?d expect that doing it after the fact, from the ALDs, would be quite error prone ? besides the one difference I have found is in the signal names, which do not always exactly match those used in the ALDs, but are close enough that the intent is obvious. But I don?t know the timing: which came first ? the ILDs or the ALDs, or did they perhaps begin together in some form and co-evolve? In summary, it seems to me that one could do a pretty decent positive logic implementation of IBM machines of that era using these ILDs. This was a real eye-opener. If there are any old-time IBMers that read this, I'd love to hear any enlightening information or stories about this process. JRJ From w2hx at w2hx.com Sat Jun 27 10:34:10 2020 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 15:34:10 +0000 Subject: IDE-SD adapter question In-Reply-To: <20200626221447.GA13432@mooli.org.uk> References: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <20200626221447.GA13432@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: Peter and Maciej. Thank you very much for the input. I don't believe this BIOS supports anything other than CHS. At least I don't see a way to toggle between CHS and LBA. Is this what I should be looking for? An option to enable LBA mode? I am not opposed to going to CF, but I have no other computers that have a CF port, thus I have no way to move files onto this 486 computer. Is there anyway to add LBA mode to this machine? A new BIOS? A new ISA card? Or am I better off considering a new motherboard altogether? Maybe more of a project than I was hoping for... I guess a possible solution might be IDE-CF card for the 486 and maybe a corresponding USB-CF for my daily PC for file transfer? Eugene -----Original Message----- From: cctech On Behalf Of Peter Corlett via cctech Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 6:15 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IDE-SD adapter question On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 09:39:57PM +0000, W2HX via cctech wrote: > Thanks for previous help on this project. I am working on an old 486 > computer and I have replaced a 40 pin IDE hard drive with this SD adapter... > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07G29TZPS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_titl > e_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 [...] > Question 1: Now that I am using an SD card instead of an IDE drive, > what, if anything, should I be doing with these BIOS parameters? The description of that adaptor says "Attention: Some of the mother board required to enable LBA mode and disable DMA transfer mode." This suggests to me that it does not support CHS addressing, and as the Engrish says, you need to use LBA mode instead. If your motherboard only supports CHS, you're likely to have a hard time getting many of these cheap adaptors to work with it. You might have better luck with Compact Flash, since the adaptors are passive and the CHS/LBA support (or lack thereof) is a function of the card, which is liable to be of better quality. From cube1 at charter.net Sat Jun 27 12:42:43 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 12:42:43 -0500 Subject: VAX /785 docs In-Reply-To: References: <20200612164649.C9CA518C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3ffe0a80-5414-b810-ea43-2f39bc9fd490@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I have the Installation manual, EK-AI785-IN-002 if it would be helpful. It is only maybe 50 pages, spiral bound. JRJ On 6/25/2020 6:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 6/12/20 10:45 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 6/12/20 9:46 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> /785 docs are very rare (Bitsvers only has prints) >>> so a VAX person should grab this and then scan them. >> >> done.. though I really shouldn't be spending money right now >> >> > > Just uploaded the scan to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/785 > Unfortunately it is the users manual and not the CPU technical manual > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jun 27 13:05:06 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 14:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DZ11 EIA dist panel on eBait Message-ID: <20200627180506.8389F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> https://www.ebay.com/itm/224058116598 Noel From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 27 13:56:41 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 19:56:41 +0100 Subject: IDE-SD adapter question In-Reply-To: References: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <20200626221447.GA13432@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 27/06/2020 16:34, W2HX via cctech wrote: > I am not opposed to going to CF, but I have no other computers that have a CF port, thus I have no way to move files onto this 486 computer. > > That well known auction site lists CF->PC Card, CF->SATA, CF->laptop 40-pin IDE and CF->ATA adapters for pennies (well ~ ?5/?6, but still cheap). I even saw a CF->PCIe adapter in the same price range. There are also card readers that read CF (plus, usually, a host of other formats). Interestingly (albeit off-topic) the HDD in my DECpc 425SE is (seemingly) dead and you've just reminded me that I have a CF->40-pin IDE adapter on hand. Thanks! Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From dave.dunfield at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 16:55:34 2020 From: dave.dunfield at gmail.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 17:55:34 -0400 Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! Message-ID: >Downloading http://dunfield.maknonsolutions.com/dos/sw/ddw2020.zip >gets flagged by Windows Defender on Windows 10 Pro (1909) >as "Worm:Win32/Spybot". A new tool now available on the site: Daves Distribution File Checker I have received reports that Windows Defenfer incorrectly lables some of my executables as naughty. I assure you this is not the case when published. They are freshly compiled from my own/known source code on a secure system. To help you know files are exactly as I uploaded then and not compromized in transit, I created this tool. It uses a proprietary/unpublished algorithm and multiple encrypted CRCs to validate that a file is exactly as I published it. The tool which makes the database will never be distributed in any way. You can check a complete .ZIP archive or individual files from it. The archive does not have to be present for DDFC to check individual files, but you do have to specify it so DDFC knows which file to reference in it's database. This program and it's database are self protecting, but can't insure they don't get replaced by something that looks the same without providing the protection. To help avoid this, I will reload this file every time I update my site. Dave -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Personal site: http://dunfield.maknonsolutions.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sat Jun 27 17:16:30 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 17:16:30 -0500 Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EF7C53E.20001@charter.net> Dave, The file is empty. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 6/27/2020 4:55 PM, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote: >> Downloading http://dunfield.maknonsolutions.com/dos/sw/ddw2020.zip >> gets flagged by Windows Defender on Windows 10 Pro (1909) >> as "Worm:Win32/Spybot". > A new tool now available on the site: > > Daves Distribution File Checker > > I have received reports that Windows Defenfer incorrectly lables some of my > executables as naughty. I assure you this is not the case when published. > They are freshly compiled from my own/known source code on a secure system. > > To help you know files are exactly as I uploaded then and not compromized in > transit, I created this tool. It uses a proprietary/unpublished algorithm and > multiple encrypted CRCs to validate that a file is exactly as I published it. > The tool which makes the database will never be distributed in any way. > > You can check a complete .ZIP archive or individual files from it. The archive > does not have to be present for DDFC to check individual files, but you do have > to specify it so DDFC knows which file to reference in it's database. > > This program and it's database are self protecting, but can't insure they don't > get replaced by something that looks the same without providing the protection. > To help avoid this, I will reload this file every time I update my site. > > Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 27 20:15:25 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 19:15:25 -0600 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/27/2020 8:49 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Hi Stan > It sounds a little like the way most good Forth programmers deal with problems. Forth is all about semantics. Every thing is a word. The complexity of the program is left to the low level stuff. When the program is done, it isn't a program written in Forth, it is a program written in the application. At the highest levels one should not see the language it was written in one should only see the application. Well written Forth at the upper levels has only : and ; of the language showing through. The rest are just the words in a sentence like structure telling what the application is doing. > It is too bad that people insist on using languages that even at the highest level is still just a program in that particular language. All the boiler plate is still in the way of the program. > Although, taking a little more time to get used to, Lisp is something like that as well. At least well written Lisp is. One can see what the intent is at the higher levels of coding. It is just learning to read the sentences. The lower level language part is how you move the bits and bytes around. The application should tell you what it does and why. Comments should only be needed at the more confusing lower levels. At the higher levels comments would and should be redundant. The words should tell you what is being done. > Dwight At what point do variable names end being comments? There needs to be more work on proper documenting and writing programs and modules. I am not a fan of objects and operator overloading because I never know just what the program is doing. apples + oranges gives me what ? count of fruits, liters of fruit punch, a error? It would be nice if one could define a new language for problem solving and run it through compiler-compiler processor for interesting problems. Ben. From 821 at 128.ca Sat Jun 27 21:19:45 2020 From: 821 at 128.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 04:19:45 +0200 Subject: Mame vt100 emulation. Cool Message-ID: <6DAC79CC-702F-4762-9E99-7918F019E2E6@128.ca> https://zork.net/~st/jottings/Real-VT102-emulation-with-MAME.html FYI. From sieler at allegro.com Sun Jun 28 02:18:40 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 00:18:40 -0700 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dwight, Yes...I agree, sounds like how FORTH works. BTW, I co-implemented a FORTH for the IBM PC, back when the first IBM PC was released. (Next Generation Systems FORTH ... 25% faster than the prior speed leader, Laboratory Microsystems FORTH, and it had a lot of nice concepts, like a true/accurate decompiler.) My co-author was Carl Sassenrath, who then went on to write the kernel of the AMIGA operating system, and (later) the Rebol language. (Carl got the inner loop down to 3 instructions vs. LM's 4 instructions :) Re: LISP ... Yes, particularly with the advent of BBN-LISP (later named INTERLISP, then INTERLisp) ... it had DWIM (Do What I Mean), and a number of really neat things. I co-implemented the Burroughs B6500 version on an ARPA contract circa 1973, so I got to interact with the BBN people a lot, including Danny Bobrow (spaghetti stacks), who had recently moved to Xerox PARC, IIRC. One of the things in INTERLISP was an optional package that implemented "normal" looking arithmetic expressions, so one could do something like: (SETQ FOO (ARITH x * y + 3)) instead of (SETQ (FOO (+ (* x y) 3))) (nearly 50 year old memory...it might have been higher level, like letting me do: (foo = x * y + 3)) I recently found a 1978 version of our INTERLISP source code! (both the normal interpreter, and our p-code interpreter ... not sure if the LISP-to-pcode compiler is there) thanks, Stan From grant at klyball.com Sat Jun 27 16:48:59 2020 From: grant at klyball.com (grant at klyball.com) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 14:48:59 -0700 Subject: Hp 21mx loader rom set Message-ID: <7C13627C4DCF4733B8DF02ADAC126094@mainPC> Hi all, i am looking for a loader rom set for my 21mx and does not seem to be around at the usual places, I am hoping to find a leed. Here is what i am in need of. 12992L consisting of 12992-80011 91740-80070 91740-80071 91740-80072 there is a set of 91740 on bit savers but with a suffix of 67-69 ? any help would be appreciated. Thanks Grant From jm at x25.ee Sun Jun 28 00:46:39 2020 From: jm at x25.ee (Jonas M) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 08:46:39 +0300 Subject: IDE-SD adapter question In-Reply-To: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: <20200628054639.GA2767@lysithea> Hi Eugene, On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 09:39:57PM +0000, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > However, I do get errors "sector not found" and if I A)bort I get INT 24 error. I am trying to get windows 95 installed and this is certainly preventing that. > In the BIOS settings I have the hard drive set as "USER" and these parameters: > CY:[1024] HD:[16] ST:[63] LZ:[1024] WP:[0] > These were the parameters in use while I was still using the actual hard drive. > Question 1: Now that I am using an SD card instead of an IDE drive, what, if anything, should I be doing with these BIOS parameters? > Question 2: The BIOS has an option to format the hard drive. Should I format the SD card using this facility? The sector not found error might be because you formatted the CF in another computer and created a partition larger than the BIOS supports (which looks like 504 MiB given your CHS parameters?). It will kind of work and DOS will report the full partition size but once you start writing over 504 MiB it will wrap around and destroy the data. >From "Enhanced IDE/Fast-ATA/ATA-2 FAQ" (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/pc-hardware-faq/enhanced-IDE/part1/): "6.7. I have no fancy EBIOS, but I have an 1GB partition and it works. Some try to work around the 504MB / 1024 cylinders issue by making a large partition using a friend's computer, Linux' fdisk, or something else. They use it for a day or two, conclude that it works, then post a triumphant article claiming that they found the Solution To Everyone's Problems[TM]. It will work... for precisely 1024 cylinders. The very moment the OS or anything else attempts to write something to cylinder 1025 through int13 calls, the write wraps around to cylinder 0. This cylinder happens to hold some of the most important data structures on the disk: the Master Boot Record, partition table, both FAT copies and the root directory of the first partition." I had the same thing happen to me the other day with a nice 2 GiB DOS partition installed on a more modern computer and then moved to a 486. Started transfering files to it and whoops the whole system gone. :-) Br, Jonas From jm at x25.ee Sun Jun 28 00:46:39 2020 From: jm at x25.ee (Jonas M) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 08:46:39 +0300 Subject: IDE-SD adapter question In-Reply-To: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: <20200628054639.GA2767@lysithea> Hi Eugene, On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 09:39:57PM +0000, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > However, I do get errors "sector not found" and if I A)bort I get INT 24 error. I am trying to get windows 95 installed and this is certainly preventing that. > In the BIOS settings I have the hard drive set as "USER" and these parameters: > CY:[1024] HD:[16] ST:[63] LZ:[1024] WP:[0] > These were the parameters in use while I was still using the actual hard drive. > Question 1: Now that I am using an SD card instead of an IDE drive, what, if anything, should I be doing with these BIOS parameters? > Question 2: The BIOS has an option to format the hard drive. Should I format the SD card using this facility? The sector not found error might be because you formatted the CF in another computer and created a partition larger than the BIOS supports (which looks like 504 MiB given your CHS parameters?). It will kind of work and DOS will report the full partition size but once you start writing over 504 MiB it will wrap around and destroy the data. >From "Enhanced IDE/Fast-ATA/ATA-2 FAQ" (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/pc-hardware-faq/enhanced-IDE/part1/): "6.7. I have no fancy EBIOS, but I have an 1GB partition and it works. Some try to work around the 504MB / 1024 cylinders issue by making a large partition using a friend's computer, Linux' fdisk, or something else. They use it for a day or two, conclude that it works, then post a triumphant article claiming that they found the Solution To Everyone's Problems[TM]. It will work... for precisely 1024 cylinders. The very moment the OS or anything else attempts to write something to cylinder 1025 through int13 calls, the write wraps around to cylinder 0. This cylinder happens to hold some of the most important data structures on the disk: the Master Boot Record, partition table, both FAT copies and the root directory of the first partition." I had the same thing happen to me the other day with a nice 2 GiB DOS partition installed on a more modern computer and then moved to a 486. Started transfering files to it and whoops the whole system gone. :-) Br, Jonas From macro at linux-mips.org Sat Jun 27 18:32:48 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 00:32:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: IDE-SD adapter question In-Reply-To: References: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <20200626221447.GA13432@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 2020, W2HX via cctech wrote: > Peter and Maciej. Thank you very much for the input. I don't believe > this BIOS supports anything other than CHS. At least I don't see a way > to toggle between CHS and LBA. Is this what I should be looking for? An > option to enable LBA mode? IIRC some old PC BIOSes indeed had an option to switch between CHS and LBA, it's been a while. It might have been on a per-drive basis, at least with some implementations; as usually, for bug compatibility or whatever. This was all hairy stuff, now that you have reminded me. Using Linux did help a lot back then, the system was especially ambitious in its early days (it has fallen a bit into routine IMO over the years; it's no longer hobbyists trying to make their best and squeeze out as much as possible from the hardware), so all that was necessary was to put all the boot stuff onto a partition within the first 528MB, even with fake CHS parameters in the BIOS setup, and forget about all the PC BIOS limitations as the kernel handled all automagically, including geometry discovery and switching between CHS and LBA as necessary (IIRC there was an override too for the user to pass at kernel invocation in case the firmware of a given drive had a bug with one of the modes or whatever). > I am not opposed to going to CF, but I have no other computers that have > a CF port, thus I have no way to move files onto this 486 computer. CF to PATA adapters are readily available and can be used to wire CF media to any machine talking PATA. I have one of those adapters that actually supports both a master and a slave CF device, so you can plug two CF devices at a time, just as with original ATA devices on a flat ribbon cable (from StarTech; it may not be available new anymore and I have it at a remote location, but I can check the P/N when I'm back at it or perhaps track down the original invoice in my e-mail archives if that would really help you). Of course you can bridge such an adapter to SATA or USB or whatever, just as with a genuine ATA device, so you should be able to wire it to a modern machine pretty easily. But actual PATA adapters for PCIe used to be made too as I have a couple myself that I bought not so long ago so as not to be stuck with vintage hardware for data copying involving a PATA device, so tracking down one being sold shouldn't be a big deal yet. You might be able to track down an actual hard drive in the CF form factor too (branded Microdrive by IBM IIRC, a 1.8" device), though the choice was rather limited. I have one of those from Seagate at 2.5GB, extracted from a TomTom sat nav that I upgraded to solid-state CF of a larger size several years ago. I used that dual CF adapter I mentioned above to copy data between the two storage devices. Those true hard drives ought to be pretty much compatible with anything, as they're ordinary magnetic devices, just smaller: /dev/hda: CompactFlash ATA device Model Number: ST625211CF Serial Number: [...] Firmware Revision: 3.04 Standards: Likely used: 6 Configuration: Logical max current cylinders 4845 4845 heads 16 16 sectors/track 63 63 -- CHS current addressable sectors: 4883760 LBA user addressable sectors: 4883760 Logical/Physical Sector size: 512 bytes device size with M = 1024*1024: 2384 MBytes device size with M = 1000*1000: 2500 MBytes (2 GB) cache/buffer size = 128 KBytes (type=DualPortCache) Capabilities: LBA, IORDY(cannot be disabled) bytes avail on r/w long: 4 Standby timer values: spec'd by Vendor R/W multiple sector transfer: Max = 16 Current = 16 Advanced power management level: disabled Recommended acoustic management value: 128, current value: 128 DMA: mdma0 mdma1 *mdma2 udma0 udma1 *udma2 (?) Cycle time: min=120ns recommended=120ns PIO: pio0 pio1 pio2 pio3 pio4 Cycle time: no flow control=120ns IORDY flow control=120ns Commands/features: Enabled Supported: * SMART feature set * Power Management feature set Write cache * Look-ahead * WRITE_BUFFER command * READ_BUFFER command * NOP cmd * CFA feature set Advanced Power Management feature set * Mandatory FLUSH_CACHE * CFA Power Level 1 (max 330mA) HW reset results: CBLID- below Vih Device num = 0 determined by CSEL Integrity word not set (found 0x0000, expected 0x1ca5) > Is there anyway to add LBA mode to this machine? A new BIOS? A new ISA card? You might be able to chase one of those sophisticated cards that I mentioned, which obviously had their own expansion BIOS hooking up into the PC BIOS. I don't know though how common they are these days on the second-hand market. Some old hardware seems to be unobtainium, almost never if at all surfacing, while other is ubiquitous. I don't know why. I wouldn't bet on a PC BIOS upgrade for such a specialised machine. They were supposed to be used in their supported vendor-provided configuration, so what would be a functional firmware upgrade good for? A critical bug fix is another matter, but that would not add such a major feature as LBA support. > Or am I better off considering a new motherboard altogether? Maybe more > of a project than I was hoping for... Another possibility would be a SCSI host adapter. They have always come with their own expansion BIOS, so any limitations of the base machine's PC BIOS are not relevant. I reckon there have been SD to SCSI adapters available. > I guess a possible solution might be IDE-CF card for the 486 and maybe a > corresponding USB-CF for my daily PC for file transfer? As I noted above I think an IDE-CF adapter is probably the easiest option and you can use it both with your intended machine and with any other as well. No need for a separate USB-CF piece to transfer data unless you want that too, that is. HTH, Maciej From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sun Jun 28 05:00:39 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 12:00:39 +0200 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20200628100039.GA11934@mooli.org.uk> On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 07:15:25PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: [...] > At what point do variable names end being comments? There needs to be more > work on proper documenting and writing programs and modules. What, auto-generated "documentation" which just lists function names and type signatures is not useful? This is news to pretty much every Java project I've had the misfortune of interacting with. > I am not a fan of objects and operator overloading because I never know just > what the program is doing. apples + oranges gives me what ? count of fruits, > liters of fruit punch, a error? That does of course depend on the strictness of the language's type system and whether the developer has exercised good taste and discretion when using operator overloading in their API. I would normally expect the compiler to reject attempts to add two incompatible types, but this is often a triumph of hope over experience. (But avoid PHP, JavaScript, and similar junk languages hacked together in a Coke-fuelled bender to solve the immediate problem, and you're 90% of the way there.) > It would be nice if one could define a new language for problem solving and > run it through compiler-compiler processor for interesting problems. I'm unclear on what you're trying to say here. Source-to-source translators are of course a well-trodden path, such as early C++ "compilers" which emitted C. A weaker variant is to abuse operator overloading to create a minilanguage that is directly compilable without translation. Such corner-cutting techniques are useful for prototyping new ideas, but tend to cause more trouble than they are worth if used as-is in production. My day job currently involves PureScript, a Haskell-inspired language which is translated into JavaScript. It is quite an experience. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jun 28 09:36:54 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 09:36:54 -0500 Subject: FW: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000e01d64d59$91f24490$b5d6cdb0$@classiccmp.org> Please copy cctalk/cctech on any responses to Peter. J From: Peter Dick Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2020 4:34 PM To: jwest at classiccmp.org Subject: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday... Hi. I stumbled on your wonderful PDP11.ORG website. As I expect you know, RSTS was ?born? on 11th June 1970 as shown when you print DATE$(1%) with Star Date format selected. This means RSTS/E, the Greatest Operating System ever, has just turned 50 years old. We would like to mark this historic moment by collecting a total of 50 memories from those of us who used RSTS/E at some time, obviously the earlier the better. Or if you are still running old Basic Plus code, then the later the better! I will then collate these memories and email them out to everyone who takes part. What memories? It doesn?t matter. Funny / technical / life changing / surprise / show how times have changed / whatever ? Length? It doesn?t matter. Your name will be included but not your email address unless you specifically want it included. Please email contributions to 50years at silverware.co.uk Bye/P Peter Dick, ex Chairman DECUS UK RSTS SIG. From dave.dunfield at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 09:53:32 2020 From: dave.dunfield at gmail.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 10:53:32 -0400 Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! Message-ID: > The file is empty. Not much I go do except stop trying and advise people to ignore all this. I've just downloaded the file from my site, and it is NOT empty and does work. I did notice a small bug, if you specify names not in it's database it doesn't tell you, and produces no output. I have corrected it. Dave -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Personal site: http://dunfield.maknonsolutions.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lars at nocrew.org Sun Jun 28 12:45:23 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 17:45:23 +0000 Subject: Mame vt100 emulation. Cool In-Reply-To: <6DAC79CC-702F-4762-9E99-7918F019E2E6@128.ca> (Kevin Lee via cctalk's message of "Sun, 28 Jun 2020 04:19:45 +0200") References: <6DAC79CC-702F-4762-9E99-7918F019E2E6@128.ca> Message-ID: <7wr1tzytho.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> > https://zork.net/~st/jottings/Real-VT102-emulation-with-MAME.html Also. https://github.com/phooky/VT100-Hax https://www.pcjs.org/machines/dec/vt100/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 28 13:06:49 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 18:06:49 +0000 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: <20200628100039.GA11934@mooli.org.uk> References: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca>, <20200628100039.GA11934@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: Overloading is always a problem in Forth. It is so easy to do that one sometimes loses the context. I was writing an assembler for my 4004 project. I wanted to overload words like IF THEN for cleaner to read assembly so I didn't have a lot of branch labels. I like indenting to show beginning and ends of program flow control. I don't like doing things like IFa and THENa or such to show the context. I still wanted to write my macros in Forth and not in assembly, so I made a word Macro: to replace : so that it would automatically keep the context straight. It is a crutch but sometimes a well placed crutch can solve such context problems. I now have my "CARRY IF ... THEN" in assembler and still can easily switch to Forth's "IF ... THEN" for making macro commands that need flow control and are for completely different context than the assembled code. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Peter Corlett via cctalk Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 3:00 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: On: raising the semantic level of a program On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 07:15:25PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: [...] > At what point do variable names end being comments? There needs to be more > work on proper documenting and writing programs and modules. What, auto-generated "documentation" which just lists function names and type signatures is not useful? This is news to pretty much every Java project I've had the misfortune of interacting with. > I am not a fan of objects and operator overloading because I never know just > what the program is doing. apples + oranges gives me what ? count of fruits, > liters of fruit punch, a error? That does of course depend on the strictness of the language's type system and whether the developer has exercised good taste and discretion when using operator overloading in their API. I would normally expect the compiler to reject attempts to add two incompatible types, but this is often a triumph of hope over experience. (But avoid PHP, JavaScript, and similar junk languages hacked together in a Coke-fuelled bender to solve the immediate problem, and you're 90% of the way there.) > It would be nice if one could define a new language for problem solving and > run it through compiler-compiler processor for interesting problems. I'm unclear on what you're trying to say here. Source-to-source translators are of course a well-trodden path, such as early C++ "compilers" which emitted C. A weaker variant is to abuse operator overloading to create a minilanguage that is directly compilable without translation. Such corner-cutting techniques are useful for prototyping new ideas, but tend to cause more trouble than they are worth if used as-is in production. My day job currently involves PureScript, a Haskell-inspired language which is translated into JavaScript. It is quite an experience. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jun 28 13:24:32 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday... Message-ID: <20200628182432.589C818C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Peter Dick > As I expect you know, RSTS was 'born' on 11th June 1970 as shown when > you print DATE$(1%) ... > This means RSTS/E, the Greatest Operating System ever, has just turned > 50 years old. Err, I expect that that was RSTS-11 in June, 1970, not RSTS-E. Since RSTS-11 (which I learned to program on; happy memories :-) was a BASIC-PLUS only system, and ran on a PDP-11/20, I suspect it was a fairly different operating system (although no doubt it's BASIC-PLUS interpreter was ported to RSTS-E). I think RSTS/E needed the -11/45, introduced around June 1972; sources give 1973 for RSTS/E. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jun 28 13:36:45 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:36:45 -0400 Subject: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday... In-Reply-To: <20200628182432.589C818C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200628182432.589C818C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jun 28, 2020, at 2:24 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Peter Dick > >> As I expect you know, RSTS was 'born' on 11th June 1970 as shown when >> you print DATE$(1%) ... >> This means RSTS/E, the Greatest Operating System ever, has just turned >> 50 years old. > > Err, I expect that that was RSTS-11 in June, 1970, not RSTS-E. Since RSTS-11 > (which I learned to program on; happy memories :-) was a BASIC-PLUS only > system, and ran on a PDP-11/20, I suspect it was a fairly different operating > system (although no doubt it's BASIC-PLUS interpreter was ported to RSTS-E). > > I think RSTS/E needed the -11/45, introduced around June 1972; sources > give 1973 for RSTS/E. > > Noel RSTS/E of course has a bunch of new stuff in it to deal with mapping, but the bulk of the code carries over from RSTS-11. For example, the file system code is basically the same, as is a large fraction of driver code as well as core kernel services. RSTS/E did lose some oddball things, such as the fact that RSTS-11 did BASIC-PLUS string garbage collection through a file processor overlay. paul From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jun 28 08:21:13 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 08:21:13 -0500 Subject: Hp 21mx loader rom set In-Reply-To: <7C13627C4DCF4733B8DF02ADAC126094@mainPC> References: <7C13627C4DCF4733B8DF02ADAC126094@mainPC> Message-ID: <000001d64d4e$ff513bf0$fdf3b3d0$@classiccmp.org> Grant wrote.... ------------------------ Hi all, i am looking for a loader rom set for my 21mx and does not seem to be around at the usual places, I am hoping to find a leed. Here is what i am in need of. 12992L consisting of 12992-80011 91740-80070 91740-80071 91740-80072 there is a set of 91740 on bit savers but with a suffix of 67-69 ? ------------------------ Pretty sure I have a binary copy of all known 12992's, the ones I use I just burn out to a set of blanks. The 7974 loader rom uses the boot loader extension firmware for DS/1000. Are you actually running ds/1000?? I haven't seen anyone get that up and running. I'll see if I can dig up the bin (or an already burned chipset). J From grant at klyball.com Sun Jun 28 10:11:51 2020 From: grant at klyball.com (grant) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 08:11:51 -0700 Subject: Hp 21mx loader rom set Message-ID: <20200628151201.100A32758C@mx1.ezwind.net> Thanks JayI'm am not trying to use DS/1000 just trying to get the 7974 loader going.Grant -------- Original message --------Grant wrote....------------------------Hi all, i am looking for a loader rom set for my 21mx and does not seem tobe around at the usual places, I am hoping to find a leed.Here is what i am in need of.12992L consisting of12992-8001191740-8007091740-8007191740-80072there is a set of 91740 on bit savers but with a suffix of 67-69 ?------------------------Pretty sure I have a binary copy of all known 12992's, the ones I use I justburn out to a set of blanks. The 7974 loader rom uses the boot loaderextension firmware for DS/1000. Are you actually running ds/1000?? I haven'tseen anyone get that up and running.I'll see if I can dig up the bin (or an already burned chipset).J From cruff at ruffspot.net Sun Jun 28 10:19:19 2020 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 09:19:19 -0600 Subject: Need HP 9114B PROM 09114-15521 Contents Message-ID: <2235B56C-5658-493D-8751-DB359B97AB8B@ruffspot.net> The PROM in my 9114B committed suicide this morning, letting the magic smoke out. It was marked with part number 09114-15521, does anyone happen to have dumped the contents so I can program a new one? Thanks. From jecel at merlintec.com Sun Jun 28 13:58:53 2020 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:58:53 -0300 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20200628185856.AAD131B00826@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> ben wrote on Sat, 27 Jun 2020 19:15:25 -0600 > It would be nice if one could define a new language for problem > solving and run it through compiler-compiler processor for interesting > problems. That is what Alan Kay's group did a few year ago in their "STEPS" project. They wanted to implement a modern computing system in only 20 thousand lines of code, so they did a compiler-compiler called OMeta inspired by the classic Meta II system and defined specialized languages for each part of the system. For networking, for example, they defined a language that was actually the ASCII diagrams for packet formats from the RFCs. For graphics they defined a sort of "APL meets streams" language called Nile in which a Cairo-like graphics system (called Gezzira) could be described in just a few hundred lines of code. http://vpri.org/writings.php Look for the texts with "STEPS" in the title - those are the yearly reports to the NSF (2007 to 2012). -- Jecel From cruff at ruffspot.net Sun Jun 28 13:47:26 2020 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 12:47:26 -0600 Subject: Need HP 9114B PROM 09114-15521 Contents Message-ID: <2DB2F6AD-69C6-41EF-BAAB-0D8674DDEC60@ruffspot.net> FYI: I've received the PROM image, no need for anyone else to go to the trouble to extract it. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 28 14:36:33 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 12:36:33 -0700 Subject: FW: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday... In-Reply-To: <000e01d64d59$91f24490$b5d6cdb0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000e01d64d59$91f24490$b5d6cdb0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <542dc5e1-4e14-cc82-b66d-d4ee84eb1191@bitsavers.org> > This means RSTS/E, the Greatest Operating System ever, has just turned 50 years old. Now, we all need to dig out the "RSTS 50th birthday" paper from eons ago.. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 28 14:39:31 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 13:39:31 -0600 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: References: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20200628100039.GA11934@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <6e5e2ab2-ee8d-9a92-081f-7b76080fb623@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/28/2020 12:06 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Overloading is always a problem in Forth. It is so easy to do that one sometimes loses the context. I was writing an assembler for my 4004 project. I wanted to overload words like IF THEN for cleaner to read assembly so I didn't have a lot of branch labels. I like indenting to show beginning and ends of program flow control. I don't like doing things like IFa and THENa or such to show the context. I still wanted to write my macros in Forth and not in assembly, so I made a word Macro: to replace : so that it would automatically keep the context straight. It is a crutch but sometimes a well placed crutch can solve such context problems. > I now have my "CARRY IF ... THEN" in assembler and still can easily switch to Forth's "IF ... THEN" for making macro commands that need flow control and are for completely different context than the assembled code. > Dwight A elseif would be easy to add I suspect to forth I like the "IF exep statements { EIF exep statments } {ELSE } ENDIF" "WHILE exep statements REPEAT" control structures because while { if {} else { if {} else .. }} tends to be hard to find just what the last } belongs to if you have several screens of code. Now days you need to have more code to handle windows and other I/O than pure problem solving as languages keep evolving. Since I am working on a 1970's style computer ( blinking lights, front panel,core memory, big rack with I/O devices) currently being emulated in FPGA,I have been looking things from that era rather than the modern stuff. It is sure hard to find a 16 or 32 bit cpu that has simple byte accessing from that era. That may be one of the reasons the PDP 11 and/or Unix developed the growth of more modern software and programming ideas. Ben. From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sun Jun 28 15:05:00 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:05:00 -0500 Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EF8F7EC.2010903@charter.net> Dave, When I open the zip file with Ultimate Zip there are no files inside the zip. That is what I mean when I say that it is empty. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 6/28/2020 9:53 AM, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote: >> The file is empty. > Not much I go do except stop trying and advise people to ignore all this. > I've just downloaded the file from my site, and it is NOT empty > and does work. > > I did notice a small bug, if you specify names not in it's database > it doesn't tell you, and produces no output. I have corrected it. > > Dave > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 28 15:32:02 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 13:32:02 -0700 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: <6e5e2ab2-ee8d-9a92-081f-7b76080fb623@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20200628100039.GA11934@mooli.org.uk> <6e5e2ab2-ee8d-9a92-081f-7b76080fb623@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <68de0650-d773-323f-d5b6-aafd59081668@sydex.com> On 6/28/20 12:39 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 6/28/2020 12:06 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Since I am working on a 1970's style computer ( blinking lights, > front panel,core memory, big rack with I/O devices) currently > being emulated in FPGA,I have been looking things from that era > rather than the modern stuff. It is sure hard to find a 16 or 32 bit cpu > that has simple byte accessing from that era. That may > be one of the reasons the PDP 11 and/or Unix developed the growth > of more modern software and programming ideas. Why is byte-granularity in addressing a necessity? It's only an issue if you have instructions that operate directly on byte quantities in memory. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jun 28 15:34:12 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 16:34:12 -0400 Subject: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday... In-Reply-To: <542dc5e1-4e14-cc82-b66d-d4ee84eb1191@bitsavers.org> References: <000e01d64d59$91f24490$b5d6cdb0$@classiccmp.org> <542dc5e1-4e14-cc82-b66d-d4ee84eb1191@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Jun 28, 2020, at 3:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > >> This means RSTS/E, the Greatest Operating System ever, has just turned 50 years old. > > Now, we all need to dig out the "RSTS 50th birthday" paper from eons ago.. You mean the 80th birthday spoof? It's on line. Probably several places; here is one: http://elvira.stacken.kth.se/rsts/rsts_80th_birthday.html paul From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Jun 28 15:29:36 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:29:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! In-Reply-To: <5EF7C53E.20001@charter.net> References: <5EF7C53E.20001@charter.net> Message-ID: <1511228074.567598.1593376176924@email.ionos.com> > On June 27, 2020 at 5:16 PM Richard Pope via cctech wrote: > > Dave,The file is empty.GOD Bless and Thanks,rich! > On 6/27/2020 4:55 PM, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote:> I downloaded the file on a Linux machine. Chrome warned me that "this is file is not often downloaded and may be dangerous." I opened the .zip file with xarchiver and found several .exe files and two .txt files. Being Linux and those being win32 executables, I couldn't run them. Will From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Jun 28 15:32:09 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:32:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! In-Reply-To: <1511228074.567598.1593376176924@email.ionos.com> References: <5EF7C53E.20001@charter.net> <1511228074.567598.1593376176924@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <2018348162.567614.1593376329994@email.ionos.com> > On June 28, 2020 at 3:29 PM Will Cooke via cctech wrote: > > > On June 27, 2020 at 5:16 PM Richard Pope via cctech wrote: > > Dave,The file is empty.GOD Bless and Thanks,rich!On 6/27/2020 4:55 PM, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote:>I downloaded the file on a Linux machine. Chrome warned me that "this is file is not often downloaded and may be dangerous." I opened the .zip file with xarchiver and found several .exe files and two .txt files. Being Linux and those being win32 executables, I couldn't run them. > Will Thanks,Dave From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sun Jun 28 15:34:19 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:34:19 -0500 Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! In-Reply-To: <1511228074.567598.1593376176924@email.ionos.com> References: <5EF7C53E.20001@charter.net> <1511228074.567598.1593376176924@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <5EF8FECB.8090602@charter.net> Will, Ultimate Zip is showing that the file is empty. Hum! I have been using Ultimate Zip for decades. Hum! I wounder what is going on! Could someone please just send me the individual files to my email address? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 6/28/2020 3:29 PM, Will Cooke via cctech wrote: >> On June 27, 2020 at 5:16 PM Richard Pope via cctech wrote: >> >> Dave,The file is empty.GOD Bless and Thanks,rich! >> On 6/27/2020 4:55 PM, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote:> > I downloaded the file on a Linux machine. Chrome warned me that "this is file is not often downloaded and may be dangerous." I opened the .zip file with xarchiver and found several .exe files and two .txt files. Being Linux and those being win32 executables, I couldn't run them. > > Will > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jun 28 16:08:22 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 17:08:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday... Message-ID: <20200628210822.2976D18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > RSTS/E of course has a bunch of new stuff in it to deal with mapping, > but the bulk of the code carries over from RSTS-11. I was assuming that the basic intermal environment was sufficiently different that not a lot of the OS-level code could carry over, but I guess not. DId you actually work on RSTS-11 internals (I don't know your exact dates at DEC), or did you just read the source? And speaking of which, are any RSTS-11 sources still extant? I found the RSTS directory on BitSavers, but it seems to have only manuals. Noel From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 28 17:28:32 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 16:28:32 -0600 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: <68de0650-d773-323f-d5b6-aafd59081668@sydex.com> References: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20200628100039.GA11934@mooli.org.uk> <6e5e2ab2-ee8d-9a92-081f-7b76080fb623@jetnet.ab.ca> <68de0650-d773-323f-d5b6-aafd59081668@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0dae9509-2f89-f1d0-08d2-08f058a2b5f6@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/28/2020 2:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Why is byte-granularity in addressing a necessity? It's only an issue > if you have instructions that operate directly on byte quantities in memory. > Why have bytes in the first place then? A packed string does count here. IBM started this mess with the 360 and 32 bits, and everybody followed.Is Fortran I/O the BIBLE on character data. IBM never seemed even to follow one character set encoding even with the similar machines like the IBM 1130. > --Chuck > We don't have opcode space (now that we are 32 bits) to give a byte LOAD/STORE but you can buy extra hardware for string functions seems to have been the marketing idea back then. Since punchcards I think had a 16 bit encoding, lack of byte data was not big problem. Who used paper tape on a 360? Ben. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jun 28 18:16:19 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 19:16:19 -0400 Subject: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday... In-Reply-To: <20200628210822.2976D18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200628210822.2976D18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <002A2E4D-D7E3-4D0B-A94E-674F7A849B34@comcast.net> > On Jun 28, 2020, at 5:08 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> RSTS/E of course has a bunch of new stuff in it to deal with mapping, >> but the bulk of the code carries over from RSTS-11. > > I was assuming that the basic intermal environment was sufficiently different > that not a lot of the OS-level code could carry over, but I guess not. > > DId you actually work on RSTS-11 internals (I don't know your exact dates at > DEC), or did you just read the source? Mostly I read the source, starting in university where we were running RSTS-11. I started working on it at DEC in the V7.0 era, for DECnet V2.0. > And speaking of which, are any RSTS-11 sources still extant? I found the RSTS > directory on BitSavers, but it seems to have only manuals. I don't remember if any of the material in bits/pdp11/rsts on Bitsavers is RSTS-11. There is the material from PDP-10 tapes that was discussed here in the past year, which I identified as very early RSTS sources. I don't know yet if they are complete enough to run, that would be an interesting experiment. FWIW, there's a RSTS/E V10.1 source master copy (including DECnet/E and build control files) among the Bitsavers materials. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jun 28 18:18:42 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 18:18:42 -0500 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: <0dae9509-2f89-f1d0-08d2-08f058a2b5f6@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20200628100039.GA11934@mooli.org.uk> <6e5e2ab2-ee8d-9a92-081f-7b76080fb623@jetnet.ab.ca> <68de0650-d773-323f-d5b6-aafd59081668@sydex.com> <0dae9509-2f89-f1d0-08d2-08f058a2b5f6@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5EF92552.1090903@pico-systems.com> On 06/28/2020 05:28 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > Since punchcards I think had a 16 bit encoding, lack of > byte data > was not big problem. Who used paper tape on a 360? IBM punch cards had 12 rows of holes. For alpha encoding, logic in the controller converted that to EBCDIC or your machine's favorite internal character interpretation. On the IBM 360, there was a straight binary encoding using only 8 bits for the data (80 bytes/card) or using all 12 bits of two character positions to encode 3 bytes. that way, you got 120 bytes/card. I don't know any way to get 16-bit encoding on punch cards of that format. Maybe some other manufacturer's punch card format. We had paper tape read and punch on a 360/50 at University or Missouri at Rolla. It was used for compatibility with the Data General minicomputers there. Only place I've ever seen paper tape on a 360. Jon From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sun Jun 28 18:20:22 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 01:20:22 +0200 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: <68de0650-d773-323f-d5b6-aafd59081668@sydex.com> References: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20200628100039.GA11934@mooli.org.uk> <6e5e2ab2-ee8d-9a92-081f-7b76080fb623@jetnet.ab.ca> <68de0650-d773-323f-d5b6-aafd59081668@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20200628232022.GA21014@mooli.org.uk> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 01:32:02PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: [...] > Why is byte-granularity in addressing a necessity? Because C's strings are broken by design and require one to be able to form a pointer to individual characters. > It's only an issue if you have instructions that operate directly on byte > quantities in memory. One wheeze is to just declare that bytes are the same size as a machine word. C doesn't require char to be exactly 8 bits, but merely at least 8 bits. However, a lot of C code will break if char, short, int and long aren't exactly the same size as they are on x86. Mind you, a lot of it is still broken even if they are... From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 28 18:22:16 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 16:22:16 -0700 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: <0dae9509-2f89-f1d0-08d2-08f058a2b5f6@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20200628100039.GA11934@mooli.org.uk> <6e5e2ab2-ee8d-9a92-081f-7b76080fb623@jetnet.ab.ca> <68de0650-d773-323f-d5b6-aafd59081668@sydex.com> <0dae9509-2f89-f1d0-08d2-08f058a2b5f6@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <522bb535-9d69-e3d8-16e0-60c7bec3945a@sydex.com> On 6/28/20 3:28 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 6/28/2020 2:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> Why is byte-granularity in addressing a necessity?? It's only an issue >> if you have instructions that operate directly on byte quantities in >> memory. >> > Why have bytes in the first place then? A packed string does count here. > IBM started this mess with the 360 and 32 bits, and everybody > followed.Is Fortran I/O the BIBLE on character data. > IBM never seemed even to follow one character set encoding even with the > similar machines like the IBM 1130. There were lots of machines where the granularity was the word. The CDC 6000/7000/Cyber 60 bit machines, for example. The lack of byte addressing did nothing to hold those machines back. At one point, CDC had the fastest COBOL implementation, even though it lacked byte addressing and decimal arithmetic, something that you'd think would give an edge to the S/360 series. Chew on that one for awhile. Punched cards (at least those of the 1130 era) used 12 bit encoding if column-binary or 36 bit encoding if handling row-binary (e.g. 704; which is why early programming languages used only the first 72 columns of a card). FWIW, I've also worked on bit-granular addressing systems, where bit arrays were part of the instruction set. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 28 18:50:32 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 16:50:32 -0700 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: <20200628232022.GA21014@mooli.org.uk> References: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20200628100039.GA11934@mooli.org.uk> <6e5e2ab2-ee8d-9a92-081f-7b76080fb623@jetnet.ab.ca> <68de0650-d773-323f-d5b6-aafd59081668@sydex.com> <20200628232022.GA21014@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <64fd07c2-615a-2752-91bd-6d80a71d5236@sydex.com> On 6/28/20 4:20 PM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 01:32:02PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> Why is byte-granularity in addressing a necessity? > > Because C's strings are broken by design and require one to be able to form a > pointer to individual characters. That's not a barrier, as IIRC, the C standard doesn't call out a specific format for pointers, other than that of NULL. I know that there was a C for the CDC Cyber series, but I don't recall the implementation details. It's noteworthy that on the Univac 1100 series, a "byte" could be 6, 9 or 12 bits, but not 8. (36 bit words). The PDP-10 had similar issues, such as the "packed" string format of 5 7-bit characters per word, with one bit unused. > One wheeze is to just declare that bytes are the same size as a machine word. C > doesn't require char to be exactly 8 bits, but merely at least 8 bits. However, > a lot of C code will break if char, short, int and long aren't exactly the same > size as they are on x86. Mind you, a lot of it is still broken even if they > are... Who cares about x86? I suspect that there's a lot of x86 code out there that assumes little-endian quantities as well. If you want to run code written for the x86 platform, get an x86 system. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Jun 28 19:03:49 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 17:03:49 -0700 Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! In-Reply-To: <5EF8FECB.8090602@charter.net> References: <5EF7C53E.20001@charter.net> <1511228074.567598.1593376176924@email.ionos.com> <5EF8FECB.8090602@charter.net> Message-ID: <81c850bb-20cf-24bc-4064-93595c36acda@jwsss.com> On 6/28/2020 1:34 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Will, > ??? Ultimate Zip is showing that the file is empty. Hum! I have been > using Ultimate Zip for decades. Hum! I wounder what is going on! Could > someone please just send me the individual files to my email address? > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > I used wget on the link.? To be sure I had the correct unarchiver, I used the file command and it was indicated to be a version 2 zip, and it opened with the EXE payloads and a text file just fine. A lot of web scanner tools which scan web downloads will flag a zip file with exe file payloads because that's one of the simplest trojan vectors.? I'd recommend you try to email them with an emailer such as yahoo.? or use your own virus scan explicitly on the directory with the exe files (for those who succeed in downloading the package). The simplest least bs and most on your own method for this is what I did.? The problem with trojans is so significant I can't really say there's a problem with the using more caution on these sorts of payloads. Also, I suspect that someone who is having problems with the downloads to go to the cctech/cctalk list archive and use the link there if it comes up as an active link in the download and see if it's flagged there.? That is if the archiver doesn't obfuscate it. To Dave, I had a tool that did this years ago (30?) which used a sophisticated shell script to create an index of md5 sums on the results of a find of every file in a tree to smoke out duplicates. I lost it, and have been wanting to write a python version with some other additions, such as a delta feature to be able to do the scans on a catch-up basis after an epoch scan. I currently have an index I do on my nas systems which runs daily, and it could run a scan like this as well in case there were dupes daily as well.? Would also help save against bit rot. thanks Jim On 6/28/2020 3:29 PM, Will Cooke via cctech wrote: >>> On June 27, 2020 at 5:16 PM Richard Pope via cctech >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dave,The file is empty.GOD Bless and Thanks,rich! >>> On 6/27/2020 4:55 PM, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote:> >> I downloaded the file on a Linux machine.? Chrome warned me that >> "this is file is not often downloaded and may be dangerous."? I >> opened the .zip file with xarchiver and found several .exe files and >> two .txt files.? Being Linux and those being win32 executables, I >> couldn't run them. >> >> Will >> > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jun 28 19:05:07 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:05:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday... Message-ID: <20200629000507.6FB7818C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Peter Dick > Question: how do the three of you (Noel) cctalk at classiccmp.org and Paul > Koning fit together? CCTalk is a mailing list for people who collect antique ('classic') computers; Paul and I are both members. I collect PDP-11's (I used them in school from '72 to '76, and worked with them from '77 to the mid-80's). Jay West, who maintains the list, forwarded your email query about RSTS/E to the list. (Paul you can find in the RSTS 80th birthday spoof, BTW.) Noel From t.gardner at computer.org Sun Jun 28 19:08:03 2020 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 17:08:03 -0700 Subject: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers In-Reply-To: References: <000b01d64b32$f6fc34a0$e4f49de0$@computer.org> <31df27f1-11bd-d2e6-1a00-39460aca37ab@sydex.com> <56CFEC76-658D-4A6A-BE04-BA224F586590@comcast.net> <008401d64be1$b5c1f380$2145da80$@computer.org> Message-ID: <00c601d64da9$5c0b1410$14213c30$@computer.org> FWIW this is an announcement of a 3M brochure from a 1957 Datamation: Magnetic Tape for Instrumentation, an 8-page brochure, covers six types of "Scotch" brand instrumentation tapes for use in telemetering and airborne recording, machine tool control systems, computers, geophysical recording, and other instrumentation applications. Included are charts listing physical and magnetic properties of each of the precision tapes and a comparison chart summary of major factors in selecting a tape for a particular application. Minnesota Mining & Mfg. Co., 900 Bush St., St. Paul 6, Minn. Circle 113 on Reader Service Card Apparently 3M ?Instrumentation tapes? can be used for ?computers? AFAIK 3M early ?Instrumentation tape? types include Type 148/149 and Type 480/481 but both were announced after the 1957 brochure mentioned above It looks like all 3M ?Type? tapes of this early era were available in a variety of widths, from ?-inch to 2 inches -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkoning at comcast.net] Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 11:44 AM To: Tom Gardner Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers > On Jun 26, 2020, at 1:46 PM, Tom Gardner < t.gardner at computer.org> wrote: > > Paul > > Thanks, I had found this ad a while ago but thought it was ?-inch. Upon careful reading all the notes I found, "Errors per roll based on recording 7 tracks on rolls ?" x 2500'. " > > It looks like 3M may have called their computer tapes "Instrumentation" tape until the late 60s > > Tom "Instrumentation tape" sounds like a reference to instrumentation recorders, which were devices used to record N channels of analog data. Typically this was done by FM-modulating that data for the actual recording process. I've seen references to heads for such machines in widths from 1/4 inch to 2 inches depending on the number of channels needed. I believe instrumentation tape was usually supplied on reels that look like professional audio tape reels -- metal flanged reels with hubs somewhat larger than a standard computer tape hub, with 3 small notches. Some early computers used tape like that for data recording; for example, the Electrologica X1 used 1/2 inch instrumentation tape reels, recording data at 400 DPI (NRZI I think) in 10 (!) tracks. Those were vaguely like DECtape -- random access rewritable blocks -- but with variable rather than fixed length blocks. Recovering data from such reels is an interesting problem today. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 28 19:11:48 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 18:11:48 -0600 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: <5EF92552.1090903@pico-systems.com> References: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20200628100039.GA11934@mooli.org.uk> <6e5e2ab2-ee8d-9a92-081f-7b76080fb623@jetnet.ab.ca> <68de0650-d773-323f-d5b6-aafd59081668@sydex.com> <0dae9509-2f89-f1d0-08d2-08f058a2b5f6@jetnet.ab.ca> <5EF92552.1090903@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <6b55d15a-253f-c161-7d84-dd30ea90d8e3@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/28/2020 5:18 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 06/28/2020 05:28 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >> Since punchcards I think had a 16 bit encoding, lack of byte data >> was not big problem. Who used paper tape on a 360? > IBM punch cards had 12 rows of holes.? For alpha encoding, logic in the > controller > converted that to EBCDIC or your machine's favorite internal character > interpretation. > > On the IBM 360, there was a straight binary encoding using only 8 bits > for the data (80 bytes/card) or using all 12 bits of two character > positions to encode 3 bytes.? that way, you got 120 bytes/card. > > I don't know any way to get 16-bit encoding on punch cards of that > format.? Maybe some other manufacturer's punch card format. Bad choice of words. I looked at a IBM 1130 only for a short time and all mostly remember you needed to convert data for every I/O device. > We had paper tape read and punch on a 360/50 at University or Missouri > at Rolla.? It was used for compatibility with the Data General > minicomputers there.? Only place I've ever seen paper tape on a 360. > > Jon Ben. From t.gardner at computer.org Sun Jun 28 19:15:31 2020 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 17:15:31 -0700 Subject: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers References: <000b01d64b32$f6fc34a0$e4f49de0$@computer.org> <31df27f1-11bd-d2e6-1a00-39460aca37ab@sydex.com> <56CFEC76-658D-4A6A-BE04-BA224F586590@comcast.net> <008401d64be1$b5c1f380$2145da80$@computer.org> Message-ID: <00cb01d64daa$678d4960$36a7dc20$@computer.org> Also FWIW 3M Types 108, 109, 128 and 159 were advertised in 1958 as ?instrumentation tapes? used for ?critical recording work? on ?? computers ?? From: Tom Gardner [mailto:t.gardner at computer.org] Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 5:08 PM To: 'Paul Koning'; 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' Subject: RE: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers FWIW this is an announcement of a 3M brochure from a 1957 Datamation: Magnetic Tape for Instrumentation, an 8-page brochure, covers six types of "Scotch" brand instrumentation tapes for use in telemetering and airborne recording, machine tool control systems, computers, geophysical recording, and other instrumentation applications. Included are charts listing physical and magnetic properties of each of the precision tapes and a comparison chart summary of major factors in selecting a tape for a particular application. Minnesota Mining & Mfg. Co., 900 Bush St., St. Paul 6, Minn. Circle 113 on Reader Service Card Apparently 3M ?Instrumentation tapes? can be used for ?computers? AFAIK 3M early ?Instrumentation tape? types include Type 148/149 and Type 480/481 but both were announced after the 1957 brochure mentioned above It looks like all 3M ?Type? tapes of this early era were available in a variety of widths, from ?-inch to 2 inches -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkoning at comcast.net] Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 11:44 AM To: Tom Gardner Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers > On Jun 26, 2020, at 1:46 PM, Tom Gardner < t.gardner at computer.org> wrote: > > Paul > > Thanks, I had found this ad a while ago but thought it was ?-inch. Upon careful reading all the notes I found, "Errors per roll based on recording 7 tracks on rolls ?" x 2500'. " > > It looks like 3M may have called their computer tapes "Instrumentation" tape until the late 60s > > Tom "Instrumentation tape" sounds like a reference to instrumentation recorders, which were devices used to record N channels of analog data. Typically this was done by FM-modulating that data for the actual recording process. I've seen references to heads for such machines in widths from 1/4 inch to 2 inches depending on the number of channels needed. I believe instrumentation tape was usually supplied on reels that look like professional audio tape reels -- metal flanged reels with hubs somewhat larger than a standard computer tape hub, with 3 small notches. Some early computers used tape like that for data recording; for example, the Electrologica X1 used 1/2 inch instrumentation tape reels, recording data at 400 DPI (NRZI I think) in 10 (!) tracks. Those were vaguely like DECtape -- random access rewritable blocks -- but with variable rather than fixed length blocks. Recovering data from such reels is an interesting problem today. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 28 19:32:59 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 18:32:59 -0600 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: <20200628232022.GA21014@mooli.org.uk> References: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20200628100039.GA11934@mooli.org.uk> <6e5e2ab2-ee8d-9a92-081f-7b76080fb623@jetnet.ab.ca> <68de0650-d773-323f-d5b6-aafd59081668@sydex.com> <20200628232022.GA21014@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 6/28/2020 5:20 PM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 01:32:02PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> Why is byte-granularity in addressing a necessity? > > Because C's strings are broken by design and require one to be able to form a > pointer to individual characters. > Just what is a NON broken string design? >> It's only an issue if you have instructions that operate directly on byte >> quantities in memory. > > One wheeze is to just declare that bytes are the same size as a machine word. C > doesn't require char to be exactly 8 bits, but merely at least 8 bits. However, > a lot of C code will break if char, short, int and long aren't exactly the same > size as they are on x86. Mind you, a lot of it is still broken even if they > are... DISC I/O seems to have stage packed formats of bytes shorts and longs all packed a character array. Directory structures or inodes come to mind. The x86 is broken period. 'int' size depends on the compiler making porting programs interesting, as well as macro processor and make files. Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 28 19:56:15 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 17:56:15 -0700 Subject: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers In-Reply-To: <00cb01d64daa$678d4960$36a7dc20$@computer.org> References: <000b01d64b32$f6fc34a0$e4f49de0$@computer.org> <31df27f1-11bd-d2e6-1a00-39460aca37ab@sydex.com> <56CFEC76-658D-4A6A-BE04-BA224F586590@comcast.net> <008401d64be1$b5c1f380$2145da80$@computer.org> <00cb01d64daa$678d4960$36a7dc20$@computer.org> Message-ID: Back in 1972, Billboard magazine published an interesting retrospective on magnetic tape. One of the more interesting articles states that Audio Devices laid claim to the first computer tape in 1957: https://shorturl.at/hqGS8 Apparently there was a patent fight over Marvin Camras' tape patent, with 3M losing the case in 1955. I've processed quite a bit of 60's Audio Devices tape. Good stuff--generally very reliable even after more than 50 years. One problem with a lot of the old reels is that the paper manufacturer's labels have long been lost, due to the adhesive drying out. AD tapes of the period are quite recognizable because legends like "AUDIO DEVICES COMPUTER TAPE" are molded into the reel flange. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jun 28 20:07:59 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 19:07:59 -0600 Subject: UUCP on macOS / *BSD Message-ID: <0072be49-63a1-a980-add5-e875a19a3f37@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Does anyone have any experience with UUCP on macOS or *BSD systems that would be willing to help me figure something out? I'm working on adding a macOS X system to my micro UUCP network and running into some problems. - uuto / uucp copy files from my non-root / non-(_)uucp user to the UUCP spool. But the (demand based) ""call (pipe over SSH) is failing. - running "uucico -r1 -s -f" as the (_)uucp user (via sudo) works. - I'm using the pipe port type and running things over an SSH connection. - The (_)uucp user can ssh to the remote system as expected without any problems or being prompted for a password. (Service specific keys w/ forced command.) I noticed that the following files weren't set UID or GID like they are on Linux. But I don't know if that's a macOS and / or *BSD difference when compared to Linux. /usr/bin/uucp /usr/bin/uuname /usr/bin/uustat /usr/bin/uux /usr/sbin/uucico /usr/sbin/uuxqt Adding the set UID & GID bits allowed things to mostly work. Aside: Getting the contemporary macOS so that I could edit the (/usr/share/uucp/) sys & port files was a treat. I figured that it was worth inquiring if anyone had any more experience / tips / gotchas before I go bending ~> breaking things even more. Thank you. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 28 20:10:35 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 18:10:35 -0700 Subject: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers In-Reply-To: References: <000b01d64b32$f6fc34a0$e4f49de0$@computer.org> <31df27f1-11bd-d2e6-1a00-39460aca37ab@sydex.com> <56CFEC76-658D-4A6A-BE04-BA224F586590@comcast.net> <008401d64be1$b5c1f380$2145da80$@computer.org> <00cb01d64daa$678d4960$36a7dc20$@computer.org> Message-ID: <2bb4670a-3f79-ca3b-0561-e882c0e02e4a@sydex.com> As an aside, note that this brochure from Audio Devices: https://ia800804.us.archive.org/29/items/TNM_Audio_Devices_Inc_-_Brochure_The_memory_busin_20170629_0528/TNM_Audio_Devices_Inc_-_Brochure_The_memory_busin_20170629_0528.pdf (I put it at about 1962) differentiates between "computer tape" and "instrumentation tape" in the product photos near the end of the brochure. --Chuck From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sun Jun 28 21:05:08 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 21:05:08 -0500 Subject: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday... In-Reply-To: <002A2E4D-D7E3-4D0B-A94E-674F7A849B34@comcast.net> References: <20200628210822.2976D18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <002A2E4D-D7E3-4D0B-A94E-674F7A849B34@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5370f549-e967-bb97-1432-b3ba700341af@thereinhardts.org> On 6/28/2020 6:16 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I don't remember if any of the material in bits/pdp11/rsts on Bitsavers is RSTS-11. There is the material from PDP-10 tapes that was discussed here in the past year, which I identified as very early RSTS sources. I don't know yet if they are complete enough to run, that would be an interesting experiment. > FWIW, there's a RSTS/E V10.1 source master copy (including DECnet/E and build control files) among the Bitsavers materials. Has anyone ever posted any of the V6 or V7 sources?? I see the V8 and V10.1 sources on Bitsavers. > paul > -- John H. Reinhardt PRRT&HS #8909 C&O HS #11530 N-Trak #7566 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 28 21:32:14 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 02:32:14 +0000 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: References: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20200628100039.GA11934@mooli.org.uk> <6e5e2ab2-ee8d-9a92-081f-7b76080fb623@jetnet.ab.ca> <68de0650-d773-323f-d5b6-aafd59081668@sydex.com> <20200628232022.GA21014@mooli.org.uk>, Message-ID: For the various flow control works, Forth generally teaches you to not spread flow control across multiple pages. Unless you are really trying to reach for every last clock cycle, it makes sense to factor even assembly code. It makes understanding the code easier and allows one to think about what is happening in the code. Of course, good choices of names make sense. One can even make a page long macro to paste in-line a block of code for a zero cycle cost factoring. Factoring is the key to such things. A page of straight assembly is a bad idea in the first place. I don't see creating labels spread across several pages any better then doing good factoring. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of ben via cctalk Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 5:32 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: On: raising the semantic level of a program On 6/28/2020 5:20 PM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 01:32:02PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> Why is byte-granularity in addressing a necessity? > > Because C's strings are broken by design and require one to be able to form a > pointer to individual characters. > Just what is a NON broken string design? >> It's only an issue if you have instructions that operate directly on byte >> quantities in memory. > > One wheeze is to just declare that bytes are the same size as a machine word. C > doesn't require char to be exactly 8 bits, but merely at least 8 bits. However, > a lot of C code will break if char, short, int and long aren't exactly the same > size as they are on x86. Mind you, a lot of it is still broken even if they > are... DISC I/O seems to have stage packed formats of bytes shorts and longs all packed a character array. Directory structures or inodes come to mind. The x86 is broken period. 'int' size depends on the compiler making porting programs interesting, as well as macro processor and make files. Ben. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Jun 28 23:26:59 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 21:26:59 -0700 Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24178d98-f0b0-151e-6c27-d137a8edb17f@jwsss.com> On 6/27/2020 2:55 PM, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote: >> Downloading http://dunfield.maknonsolutions.com/dos/sw/ddw2020.zip >> gets flagged by Windows Defender on Windows 10 Pro (1909) >> as "Worm:Win32/Spybot". I tried to run this on wine, and the executables run.? However no luck with the editor, seems to hate the input. Also no files would open. Any possibility of the sources to build a linux version, or possibly one that would run on debian / ubuntu (my own choice)? My nas is all at the base naming scheme compatible with unix, not windows, with attendant case insensitivity issues. The tool sounds great, will have to see if it will work with any of my windows 10 systems which access the NAS. thanks jim > A new tool now available on the site: > > Daves Distribution File Checker > > I have received reports that Windows Defenfer incorrectly lables some of my > executables as naughty. I assure you this is not the case when published. > They are freshly compiled from my own/known source code on a secure system. > > To help you know files are exactly as I uploaded then and not compromized in > transit, I created this tool. It uses a proprietary/unpublished algorithm and > multiple encrypted CRCs to validate that a file is exactly as I published it. > The tool which makes the database will never be distributed in any way. > > You can check a complete .ZIP archive or individual files from it. The archive > does not have to be present for DDFC to check individual files, but you do have > to specify it so DDFC knows which file to reference in it's database. > > This program and it's database are self protecting, but can't insure they don't > get replaced by something that looks the same without providing the protection. > To help avoid this, I will reload this file every time I update my site. > > Dave From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 00:20:33 2020 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 22:20:33 -0700 Subject: Hp 21mx loader rom set In-Reply-To: <000001d64d4e$ff513bf0$fdf3b3d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <7C13627C4DCF4733B8DF02ADAC126094@mainPC> <000001d64d4e$ff513bf0$fdf3b3d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <026801d64dd5$04382710$0ca87530$@gmail.com> Hi Grant, I looked at my collection and I have the 67-69 ROMs, which I also identified as the DS/1000 ROMs (Distributed Systems Network). I also have a 91740-80033/34/35 set which I don't know what it is. Does anyone know? Anyhow, looking at the ROMs and dates, I suspect these are E/F microcode only and would not work on the 21MX. So I think you'll have to go with one of my cables, a standard mag tape card set and disconnecting your HPIB card from the 7970 - so you were right from the start. I would still be intrigued to see if anyone has the 70-72 set, and did not know they were a DS/1000 extension, thanks Jay. Marc > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwest--- > via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 6:21 AM > To: grant at klyball.com; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Hp 21mx loader rom set > > Grant wrote.... > ------------------------ > Hi all, i am looking for a loader rom set for my 21mx and does not seem to > be around at the usual places, I am hoping to find a leed. > Here is what i am in need of. > > > 12992L consisting of > > 12992-80011 > 91740-80070 > 91740-80071 > 91740-80072 > > there is a set of 91740 on bit savers but with a suffix of 67-69 ? > ------------------------ > > Pretty sure I have a binary copy of all known 12992's, the ones I use I just > burn out to a set of blanks. The 7974 loader rom uses the boot loader > extension firmware for DS/1000. Are you actually running ds/1000?? I haven't > seen anyone get that up and running. > > I'll see if I can dig up the bin (or an already burned chipset). > > J > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 00:20:33 2020 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 22:20:33 -0700 Subject: Hp 21mx loader rom set In-Reply-To: <000001d64d4e$ff513bf0$fdf3b3d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <7C13627C4DCF4733B8DF02ADAC126094@mainPC> <000001d64d4e$ff513bf0$fdf3b3d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <026801d64dd5$04382710$0ca87530$@gmail.com> Hi Grant, I looked at my collection and I have the 67-69 ROMs, which I also identified as the DS/1000 ROMs (Distributed Systems Network). I also have a 91740-80033/34/35 set which I don't know what it is. Does anyone know? Anyhow, looking at the ROMs and dates, I suspect these are E/F microcode only and would not work on the 21MX. So I think you'll have to go with one of my cables, a standard mag tape card set and disconnecting your HPIB card from the 7970 - so you were right from the start. I would still be intrigued to see if anyone has the 70-72 set, and did not know they were a DS/1000 extension, thanks Jay. Marc > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwest--- > via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 6:21 AM > To: grant at klyball.com; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Hp 21mx loader rom set > > Grant wrote.... > ------------------------ > Hi all, i am looking for a loader rom set for my 21mx and does not seem to > be around at the usual places, I am hoping to find a leed. > Here is what i am in need of. > > > 12992L consisting of > > 12992-80011 > 91740-80070 > 91740-80071 > 91740-80072 > > there is a set of 91740 on bit savers but with a suffix of 67-69 ? > ------------------------ > > Pretty sure I have a binary copy of all known 12992's, the ones I use I just > burn out to a set of blanks. The 7974 loader rom uses the boot loader > extension firmware for DS/1000. Are you actually running ds/1000?? I haven't > seen anyone get that up and running. > > I'll see if I can dig up the bin (or an already burned chipset). > > J > From jdbryan at acm.org Sun Jun 28 17:02:47 2020 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 18:02:47 -0400 Subject: Hp 21mx loader rom set In-Reply-To: <7C13627C4DCF4733B8DF02ADAC126094@mainPC> References: <7C13627C4DCF4733B8DF02ADAC126094@mainPC> Message-ID: On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 14:48, grant--- via cctech wrote: > 12992-80011 > 91740-80070 > 91740-80071 > 91740-80072 > > there is a set of 91740 on bit savers but with a suffix of 67-69 ? These are the original DS/1000 ROMs (date code 2003) without the 7974 loader extension. That was added in 1985 (date code 2540) with the 80070-72 set. The 12992-80011 ROM loads the extension from the DS/1000 ROMs into memory for execution. > any help would be appreciated. Contact me off-list if you still need copies of these ROM files. -- Dave From kspt.tor at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 03:10:38 2020 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 10:10:38 +0200 Subject: Mame vt100 emulation. Cool In-Reply-To: <6DAC79CC-702F-4762-9E99-7918F019E2E6@128.ca> References: <6DAC79CC-702F-4762-9E99-7918F019E2E6@128.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 04:20, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: > > https://zork.net/~st/jottings/Real-VT102-emulation-with-MAME.html MAME is a beast. Sometimes it kind of works (for other stuff), here it just hits me with an "Abort" with no indication as to why. From 50years at silverware.co.uk Mon Jun 29 05:53:19 2020 From: 50years at silverware.co.uk (Peter Dick) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 11:53:19 +0100 Subject: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday... In-Reply-To: <20200629000507.6FB7818C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200629000507.6FB7818C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9b946e35-934c-9027-8d34-69ed82d357cd@silverware.co.uk> Good morning Noel Thanks for the link? While I appreciate "retired" might describe your current status, I was looking for a better description of how you were/are involved with RSTS. And... You might be amused to learn I was the author of the RSTS 80th Birthday document.? It was "frozen" in late April 1990... Bye/P On 29/06/2020 01:05, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Peter Dick > > > Question: how do the three of you (Noel) cctalk at classiccmp.org and Paul > > Koning fit together? > > CCTalk is a mailing list for people who collect antique ('classic') computers; > Paul and I are both members. I collect PDP-11's (I used them in school from > '72 to '76, and worked with them from '77 to the mid-80's). Jay West, who > maintains the list, forwarded your email query about RSTS/E to the list. > (Paul you can find in the RSTS 80th birthday spoof, BTW.) > > Noel > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 12:02:36 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 13:02:36 -0400 Subject: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday... In-Reply-To: References: <20200628182432.589C818C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:36 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Err, I expect that that was RSTS-11 in June, 1970, not RSTS-E. Since RSTS-11 > > (which I learned to program on; happy memories :-) was a BASIC-PLUS only > > system, and ran on a PDP-11/20, I suspect it was a fairly different operating > > system (although no doubt it's BASIC-PLUS interpreter was ported to RSTS-E). > > > > I think RSTS/E needed the -11/45, introduced around June 1972; sources > > give 1973 for RSTS/E. I came to RSTS some time later (not counting dialling from a DECwriter, I first really used RSTS/E in 1984) but with the difference between RSTS-11 and RSTS/E, I went over David Ahl's "101 BASIC Computing Games" to figure out from the code, from the run listings, and from the descriptions, which of the many systems were used. I found references identifying about 40% of the games, and relevant to this thread, ANIMAL and BLKJAC mention RSTS-11, several mention RSTS/E (ACEYDU, FIPFOP, HOCKEY, HURKLE, MUGWMP, SALVO, and SYNONM), and one mentions the EduSystem 70 (HRMABI). In various places I've found mention of the EduSystem 60 (single-user on a 4K PDP-11/20), the EduSystem 70 (up to 8 users on a 16K PDP-11/20), and the EduSystem 80 (up to 16 users on a 24K PDP-11/20 and a specific mention or RSTS-11). The EduSystem handbook (1973 publication date) only covers up to the EduSystem 50 so I don't have configuration details of any of the systems. As I mention from time to time, I have an 11/20 that needs extensive restoration work (it was rescued from the dumpster at work after my supervisor stripped out fans and PSUs) and I'd love to find things to run on it other than paper tape and toggle-in programs. Finding a copy of an EduSystem distro would be fantastic for demos. Cheers, -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 16:05:17 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 23:05:17 +0200 Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! In-Reply-To: <5EF8FECB.8090602@charter.net> References: <5EF7C53E.20001@charter.net> <1511228074.567598.1593376176924@email.ionos.com> <5EF8FECB.8090602@charter.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 22:55, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > > Will, > Ultimate Zip is showing that the file is empty. Hum! I have been > using Ultimate Zip for decades. Hum! I wounder what is going on! I've never even heard of this tool before. I looked it up, and http://www.ultimatezip.com/ ... is a dead link now. I think your Zip tool is obsolete and must be replaced. I recommend 7Zip. It's free & open source, runs on Windows, it's fast, and opens just about anything. It is genuinely the only compression/decompression tool I find that I need, although I rarely run Windows. Won't cost you a penny/cent, runs on any version of Windows, no licensing or anything ever. https://www.7-zip.org/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 29 16:11:10 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 17:11:10 -0400 Subject: More DECnet/E items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2CB116EE-D510-4564-83EB-0CF4872CF103@comcast.net> Following up on my earlier Y2K fixes for DECnet/E, I implemented proper support in EVTLOG and NCP for the undocumented RSTS feature supporting DECnet over terminal lines. You can find it in the same place, specifically the "decnete" subdirectory. The main changes are in the new NCP.TSK; there are also some changes to EVTLOG.TSK to display the events for these circuits correctly. Documentation is included in that directory. Enjoy, paul > On Jun 21, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > I just made some small changes to the DECnet/E event logger application to fix a Y2K problem. (More precisely, a Y2K.003 problem). > > https://github.com/pkoning2/decstuff > > This is for RSTS V10.1. Just drop the new evtlog.tsk into [0,16]. > > paul > From RichA at livingcomputers.org Mon Jun 29 14:41:53 2020 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 19:41:53 +0000 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: <64fd07c2-615a-2752-91bd-6d80a71d5236@sydex.com> References: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20200628100039.GA11934@mooli.org.uk> <6e5e2ab2-ee8d-9a92-081f-7b76080fb623@jetnet.ab.ca> <68de0650-d773-323f-d5b6-aafd59081668@sydex.com> <20200628232022.GA21014@mooli.org.uk> <64fd07c2-615a-2752-91bd-6d80a71d5236@sydex.com> Message-ID: <60f8df30b5134e7da2ad96b352d20554@livingcomputers.org> From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 4:51 PM > It's noteworthy that on the Univac 1100 series, a "byte" could be 6, 9 > or 12 bits, but not 8. (36 bit words). The PDP-10 had similar issues, > such as the "packed" string format of 5 7-bit characters per word, with > one bit unused. Of course, on the PDP-10, bytes can be anywhere from 1 to 36 bits long; the size is defined in the pointer, not the hardware. And in the 7-bit ASCII text format, bit 35 (the word is big-endian) *is* used by the default editor: In order to allow line numbering in source files for languages which do not allow it, the line numbers are ASCII strings with bit 35 set, and the monitor (=kernel=operating system) strips them out before handing them to compilers' input streams. Rich Rich Alderson ex-Sr. Systems Engineer/Curator emeritus Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 Cell: (206) 465-2916 Desk: (206) 342-2239 http://www.LivingComputers.org/ NB: This e-mail address will cease working after 1 July 2020. Use lcml at alderson.users.panix.com for future communications. From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Jun 29 16:19:05 2020 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 17:19:05 -0400 Subject: Hp 21mx loader rom set In-Reply-To: <026801d64dd5$04382710$0ca87530$@gmail.com> References: <7C13627C4DCF4733B8DF02ADAC126094@mainPC>, <000001d64d4e$ff513bf0$fdf3b3d0$@classiccmp.org>, <026801d64dd5$04382710$0ca87530$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 22:20, CuriousMarc via cctech wrote: > I also have a 91740-80033/34/35 set which I don't know what it is. Does > anyone know? Those are DS/1000 revision 1826. Page 3-130 of the HP "Communicator/1000 for Software Update 6.0" (5951-6201, December 1992) has a full list of the DS/1000 ROMs and revisions, as follows: 91740-80001/02/03/16 -- Rev. 1740 91740-80018/19/20/17 -- Rev. 1813 91740-80033/34/35/48 -- Rev. 1826 91740-80049/50/51/48 -- Rev. 1913 91740-80064/65/66/48 -- Rev. 2003 (bad ROMs; withdrawn) 91740-80067/68/69/48 -- Rev. 2003 (good ROMs) 91740-80070/71/72/48 -- Rev. 2540 (adds 7974 loader; no DS change) (The first three ROMs in each entry are the microcode ROMS; the fourth is the CBL ROM.) Pages 3-104 through 3-136 of that document give the firmware revisions of all of the HP products then in support. > Anyhow, looking at the ROMs and dates, I suspect these are E/F > microcode only and would not work on the 21MX. All of the above are E/F-Series only. -- Dave From ryan at hack.net Mon Jun 29 17:53:07 2020 From: ryan at hack.net (ryan@hack.net ryan@hack.net) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 18:53:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Bringing up MVME 197LE (88k) Message-ID: <1398272514.410108.1593471187335@privateemail.com> Anyone have experience with the Moto 88k VME boards? I have an MVME197LE that I?m trying to bring up but it?s staying in BRDFAIL, while SYSCON and RUN are green and pressing RESET appears to work. Nothing on console at all. (via a 712 transition module) Same behavior with the NVRAM removed. I do have the mezzanine card which has stayed affixed with an interesting inter-board connection. (Is this separate-able? Should it function without this DRAM?). I?ll dive deep into debugging this, but if anyone has some tips or experience they could share it would be appreciated! Thanks! -Ryan Brooks ryan at hack.net From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 29 20:01:15 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 18:01:15 -0700 Subject: On: raising the semantic level of a program In-Reply-To: <60f8df30b5134e7da2ad96b352d20554@livingcomputers.org> References: <3381ab3a-8b8a-1aad-2fed-38f522b4a46f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20200628100039.GA11934@mooli.org.uk> <6e5e2ab2-ee8d-9a92-081f-7b76080fb623@jetnet.ab.ca> <68de0650-d773-323f-d5b6-aafd59081668@sydex.com> <20200628232022.GA21014@mooli.org.uk> <64fd07c2-615a-2752-91bd-6d80a71d5236@sydex.com> <60f8df30b5134e7da2ad96b352d20554@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <534f3648-a42b-2eac-302c-fb55db4268fb@sydex.com> On 6/29/20 12:41 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > From: Chuck Guzis > Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 4:51 PM > >> It's noteworthy that on the Univac 1100 series, a "byte" could be 6, 9 >> or 12 bits, but not 8. (36 bit words). The PDP-10 had similar issues, >> such as the "packed" string format of 5 7-bit characters per word, with >> one bit unused. > > Of course, on the PDP-10, bytes can be anywhere from 1 to 36 bits long; > the size is defined in the pointer, not the hardware. > > And in the 7-bit ASCII text format, bit 35 (the word is big-endian) *is* > used by the default editor: In order to allow line numbering in source > files for languages which do not allow it, the line numbers are ASCII > strings with bit 35 set, and the monitor (=kernel=operating system) strips > them out before handing them to compilers' input streams. My point being that implicit "byte" addressability isn't essential if there are no instructions that can take advantage of it. The PDP-10 does have halfword instructions and although they're called "byte" instructions, are what I'd call "bit field" instructions (LDB, DPB, etc.)--but nothing that would implicitly be called a "byte". Whereas, on say, S/360, an 8-bit byte is intrinsic to the hardware and so defines addressing granularity. Character sets on other systems can be wildly variable; consider WPS-8, for example. You do what works--and the lack of byte granularity is no particular hindrance. --Chuck From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Jun 29 18:37:52 2020 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 23:37:52 +0000 Subject: IDE-SD adapter question In-Reply-To: <20200628054639.GA2767@lysithea> References: <026cd4a7561d4df098134410b444c5cb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <20200628054639.GA2767@lysithea> Message-ID: <80e60e952e1d4fc8b89130f5330f1953@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Jonas, I am using an SD card, not CF because I need to move files from a laptop to this computer using the SD. Having said that, I suspect everything you said is still true. I don't have access to any linux. But do you think I could make a 300MB partition (for example) on the SD card and use that? I only have windows 7 or 10 machines available to me (other than some PDP machines!) I don't need very much space. I would like to run windows 95 and two or three other programs. Eugene -----Original Message----- From: Jonas M Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 1:47 AM To: W2HX ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: IDE-SD adapter question Hi Eugene, On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 09:39:57PM +0000, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > However, I do get errors "sector not found" and if I A)bort I get INT 24 error. I am trying to get windows 95 installed and this is certainly preventing that. > In the BIOS settings I have the hard drive set as "USER" and these parameters: > CY:[1024] HD:[16] ST:[63] LZ:[1024] WP:[0] These were the parameters > in use while I was still using the actual hard drive. > Question 1: Now that I am using an SD card instead of an IDE drive, what, if anything, should I be doing with these BIOS parameters? > Question 2: The BIOS has an option to format the hard drive. Should I format the SD card using this facility? The sector not found error might be because you formatted the CF in another computer and created a partition larger than the BIOS supports (which looks like 504 MiB given your CHS parameters?). It will kind of work and DOS will report the full partition size but once you start writing over 504 MiB it will wrap around and destroy the data. >From "Enhanced IDE/Fast-ATA/ATA-2 FAQ" (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/pc-hardware-faq/enhanced-IDE/part1/): "6.7. I have no fancy EBIOS, but I have an 1GB partition and it works. Some try to work around the 504MB / 1024 cylinders issue by making a large partition using a friend's computer, Linux' fdisk, or something else. They use it for a day or two, conclude that it works, then post a triumphant article claiming that they found the Solution To Everyone's Problems[TM]. It will work... for precisely 1024 cylinders. The very moment the OS or anything else attempts to write something to cylinder 1025 through int13 calls, the write wraps around to cylinder 0. This cylinder happens to hold some of the most important data structures on the disk: the Master Boot Record, partition table, both FAT copies and the root directory of the first partition." I had the same thing happen to me the other day with a nice 2 GiB DOS partition installed on a more modern computer and then moved to a 486. Started transfering files to it and whoops the whole system gone. :-) Br, Jonas From rshepprd at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 22:08:10 2020 From: rshepprd at gmail.com (Richard Sheppard) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 23:08:10 -0400 Subject: Bringing up MVME 197LE (88k) Message-ID: <5efaac9b.1c69fb81.af58f.93b8@mx.google.com> A few of the self-tests I?ve seen on the 147s set BRDFAIL if the NVRAM doesn?t pass, so perhaps changing the NVRAM for a known good would be a place to start. Richard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From rp at servium.ch Tue Jun 30 02:00:48 2020 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 00:00:48 -0700 Subject: Bringing up MVME 197LE (88k) In-Reply-To: <1398272514.410108.1593471187335@privateemail.com> References: <1398272514.410108.1593471187335@privateemail.com> Message-ID: Make sure the configuration switch for system controller matches the slot it's in. Fixing the NVRAM seems like a good next step. Not sure I'd remove the memory mezzanine, I don't think the board can do much without it. On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 3:53 PM ryan at hack.net ryan--- via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Anyone have experience with the Moto 88k VME boards? I have an MVME197LE > that I?m trying to bring up but it?s staying in BRDFAIL, while SYSCON and > RUN are green and pressing RESET appears to work. > > Nothing on console at all. (via a 712 transition module) > > Same behavior with the NVRAM removed. > > I do have the mezzanine card which has stayed affixed with an interesting > inter-board connection. (Is this separate-able? Should it function > without this DRAM?). > > > I?ll dive deep into debugging this, but if anyone has some tips or > experience they could share it would be appreciated! > > Thanks! > > -Ryan Brooks > ryan at hack.net > From kspt.tor at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 03:47:19 2020 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 10:47:19 +0200 Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! In-Reply-To: References: <5EF7C53E.20001@charter.net> <1511228074.567598.1593376176924@email.ionos.com> <5EF8FECB.8090602@charter.net> Message-ID: > > Ultimate Zip is showing that the file is empty. Hum! I have been > > using Ultimate Zip for decades. Hum! I wounder what is going on! *Nix 'unzip' shows it as perfectly fine. Could it be that Ultimate Zip is so old that it only supports zip files where the directory is at the beginning of the zip file, and not at the end? Like how the first versions of pkzip did? From rickards at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 07:55:34 2020 From: rickards at gmail.com (Paul Rickards) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 08:55:34 -0400 Subject: Zenith MinisPort laptop memor