From boris at summitclinic.com Wed Jan 1 02:46:07 2020 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2020 00:46:07 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie (was: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes) In-Reply-To: <01ACA4DC-9A63-42CC-9061-91AAA485672C@snowmoose.com> References: <016901d5c021$d6407560$82c16020$@net> <01ACA4DC-9A63-42CC-9061-91AAA485672C@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <20200101092304.799ED27397@mx1.ezwind.net> At 14:15 31-12-19, you wrote: > > On Dec 31, 2019, at 13:32, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > > > ???I hate having to order 50 capacitors from > China every time I need one.... > > > >I ordered two from Mouser this week. > >alan One of the things I miss most is no longer having any local electronic suppliers. Larger cities have more, but all of the places piled high with old electronics in Seattle in 1980's were no longer there when last visited Seattle around 2007 or so. Vancouver has one electronics store which, given Vancouver traffic, was at least a 1 hour drive each way. Seems that no-one is interesting in restoring old systems or building them anymore. The old surplus electronic stores in Canada seemed to fade away in 1970's, but Western Surplus in Edmonton was an excellent place to find military surplus electronics in 1960's. Hate online ordering as don't get a chance to actually look at what one is getting and there's a minimum of a few days to a week delay before one gets the item. Living in middle of BC means a week is closer to how long it takes. As far as China goes, have waited months for electronics to come from China. Really cheap, but even cheaper if one pulls things like 16x32 multicolor LED displays out of sale kids toys; a girls "programmable display purse" cost less on sale at ToysRus than buying a multicolor LED matrix new from China (and before factoring in shipping and duties) and after disassembly, one got a very well manufactured multicolor LED matrix as well as very a very shoddy, likely ARM CPU based, board which connected to the LED matrix. Find that online ordering results in my having an excess of microprocessor development systems which I still haven't used, of which the most use in future will be Propeller proto boards as that's my favorite CPU after PDP-11. Learned early that don't have a few glasses of wine before starting to order electronics online ($1500 AdaFruit order was result). Now I just try to stock up on things that are likely to be in short supply and that I don't want to run out of. Current system of immediately getting a part when one needs it very fragile and depends on a complex transportation system which can easily fall apart in a SHTF situation. Also, donate old electronics to people who will resuse them (such as out local Makerspace which may represent a future form of distributed manufacturing). Not having local stocks of electronic parts available for purchase very annoying and only solution I've found for now is to look at what parts I'm likely to need and order 50 of them or whatever number I get a decent price break. Electrolytic capacitors have a finite lifetime and would prefer to buy them new but will just have to hope they age more slowly when not in use. From ataylor at subgeniuskitty.com Wed Jan 1 09:08:55 2020 From: ataylor at subgeniuskitty.com (Aaron Taylor) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 07:08:55 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie (was: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes) In-Reply-To: <017601d5c02b$cc1f55b0$645e0110$@net> References: <016901d5c021$d6407560$82c16020$@net> <01ACA4DC-9A63-42CC-9061-91AAA485672C@snowmoose.com> <017601d5c02b$cc1f55b0$645e0110$@net> Message-ID: <20200101150855.GA18605@lagavulin.subgeniuskitty.com> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 02:43:59PM -0800, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > > > I ordered two from Mouser this week. > > > > alan > > And paid in much in S&H (if not more) to buy the two from Mouser then it would have cost to get 50 from China... ;) FWIW, Digikey ships small items like capacitors for free if you pay by check and live in the US or Canada. Scroll down to Section 6 of their Terms and Conditions and read the asterisk. https://www.digikey.com/en/terms-and-conditions It's been years since I've used that feature but as a student I remember the process being pretty painless. Aaron From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jan 1 10:07:25 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:07:25 -0500 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04de5ace-8c65-4e95-434f-62f8d3b0a39c@telegraphics.com.au> On 2019-12-31 5:52 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Dec 31, 2019, at 2:42 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >>> On Dec 31, 2019, at 14:25, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> ?On 12/31/19 2:15 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>> On Dec 31, 2019, at 13:32, Ali via cctalk wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ?I hate having to order 50 capacitors from China every time I need one.... >>>>> >>>> >>>> I ordered two from Mouser this week. >>> >>> Dunno--after all, you're simply moving your purchasing closer to the >>> point of production when you order from China. So that makes sense to >>> cut out the middleman. >> >> Shipping just two capacitors from Texas to Seattle seems silly enough. Shipping them from China seems really silly to me. >> >> Distribution (middlemen) is how a lot of the people earn a living. > > Unfortunately the lack of actual electronics parts places in town mean that shopping online is the only option. We used to have multiple options in the area, they slowly disappeared, including Rat Shack. Fry?s is the only option that I?m aware of left. > > On an interesting note, I read an article recently, that popped up in my financial news. Delivery services have reached the breaking point in the cities, due to the amount of deliveries, and the lack of parking. Huh. I wonder how postal mail ever worked. --T > > Zane > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 1 11:23:07 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 09:23:07 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: <04de5ace-8c65-4e95-434f-62f8d3b0a39c@telegraphics.com.au> References: <04de5ace-8c65-4e95-434f-62f8d3b0a39c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: I could see the writing on the wall when the local independent electronics parts supplier (Norvac) closed in the 90s. That left mail-order or Radio Shack, but the smaller stores who had very limited inventories. I still have my portable all-band radio that I bought around that time. It cost, IIRC, somewhere around $200. I listened to the BBC World Service a lot during that time. I remember first hearing about 9/11 on the WS. Now, of course, who listens to shortwave broadcast radio? The Internet has killed off a lot of things, broadcast radio and TV among them. Local electronics part suppliers seem to just be collateral damage. You do what you have to using the best available resources. Sadly, local manufacturers and suppliers are no longer options. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 1 12:36:20 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 13:36:20 -0500 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: References: <04de5ace-8c65-4e95-434f-62f8d3b0a39c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > You do what you have to using the best available resources. Sadly, > local manufacturers and suppliers are no longer options. And pretty soon, independent surplus dealers will also no longer be an option. Most of them have lots of modern and vintage goodies - the kind of stuff this thread is all about - and will work with buyers if only a few pieces are needed. Most will do custom orders and search for oddball parts. Most will do internet/mail order with reasonable shipping money. They want your business. All you need to do is ask. But, the independent surplus dealers are giving up in legion, simply because you (and I mean you as in nearly everyone on this list) stopped shopping with them. Too inconvenient, apparently. At this point, I do not think it even crosses anyone's mind to try the independent market at all. And then you weep and moan when another goes under... I am no longer marketing modern(ish) electronic components for retail - there is no money there. All that stuff - 1000s of ICs and capacitors and connectors are going out for metal recovery. Yes, it hits home. -- Will From athornton at gmail.com Wed Jan 1 14:30:02 2020 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 13:30:02 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 64, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I remember chatting a bit with John Fry who saw the sales margins in electronics and compared them to food sales his family's supermarket chain. He figured that the marketing that worked so well in the grocery business would be a winner in electronics sales. Because of his family's connections, he could also offer popular food items. High volume and low margins. That answers my question about why Fry's the supermarket chain (acquired by Kroger's a few years ago) has a logo like the electronics store. The Fry's down near NASA in Houston was also a creepy ghost town a month or so ago. Micro Center in Houston seemed to be doing fine. On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 11:00 AM wrote: > Send cctech mailing list submissions to > cctech at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctech-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctech-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > (Tom Gardner) > 2. Re: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > (Chuck Guzis) > 3. Re: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > (Fred Cisin) > 4. Re: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes (Ali) > 5. RE: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes (Ali) > 6. Re: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > (jim stephens) > 7. Re: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > (Fred Cisin) > 8. Re: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > (John Herron) > 9. New Member Introduction (Mike Begley) > 10. RE: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > (Mike Begley) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 10:34:27 -0800 > From: "Tom Gardner" > To: > Subject: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > Message-ID: <002301d5c008$ef5ba650$ce12f2f0$@computer.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Palo Alto Fry?s closing < > https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Bay-Area-locations-Frys-Electronics-closed-14939907.php> > . Sad, but not the end of an era ? apparently the loss of lease > > > > I remember visiting an early Fry?s (first?) in Sunnyvale (541 Lakeside > Dr?, near Oakmead and around the corner from Shugart Associates where I > then worked). I marveled at the selection of steaks, diet cokes, > resistors, capacitors, ICs, etc. They had partially converted a > supermarket into an electronics store but I heard they at first kept the > food to keep some cash flow. I think I bought steaks J The engineers and > technicians at Shugart more than once ran over there to get breadboard > parts. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:24:27 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > On 12/31/19 10:34 AM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > > Palo Alto Fry?s closing > > < > https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Bay-Area-locations-Frys-Electronics-closed-14939907.php > > > > . Sad, but not the end of an era ? apparently the loss of lease > > > > > > I remember visiting an early Fry?s (first?) in Sunnyvale (541 > > Lakeside Dr?, near Oakmead and around the corner from Shugart > > Associates where I then worked). I marveled at the selection of > > steaks, diet cokes, resistors, capacitors, ICs, etc. They had > > partially converted a supermarket into an electronics store but I > > heard they at first kept the food to keep some cash flow. I think I > > bought steaks J The engineers and technicians at Shugart more than > > once ran over there to get breadboard parts. > > I was at the grand opening of the Sunnyvale Fry's. A great place to > purchase Canfield's Diet Chocolate Fudge soda, which was all the rage > back then. A friend purchased it by the caselot. > > I remember chatting a bit with John Fry who saw the sales margins in > electronics and compared them to food sales his family's supermarket > chain. He figured that the marketing that worked so well in the grocery > business would be a winner in electronics sales. Because of his > family's connections, he could also offer popular food items. High > volume and low margins. > > Sigh. It was a time when factory reps would come and give live > presentations of their good stuff. And rows and rows of pegboard with > plastic bags of components with red-and-white labels. At some point > they got some sort of deal with Everex (which was in Fremont) and they > had piles of that stuff cheap for sale. In that department, however, > their tech support was close to non-existent. ("Doesn't work? Here's > another one to try" approach). > > But then, the area had lots of surplus electronics places back then, > probably because things were actually manufactured in the Santa Clara > valley. > > The Palo Alto store was after my time. > > --Chuck > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 13:08:54 -0800 (PST) > From: Fred Cisin > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=X-UNKNOWN; FORMAT=flowed > > Fry's says that they are doing fine. > BUT, that they are moving to a "consignment" model - they now plan to pay > their suppliers only AFTER the merchandise sells. > > Or at least that is what they are telling their creditors. > > They could revitalize the stores, if they would add Jolt Cola, Canfield's > Diet Chocolate Fudge soda, potato chips, cookies, toothpaste, rosin-core > lead solder, and electronic components. Maybe even collaborate with > Fat-Brain to open a computer literacy bookstore. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > >> Palo Alto Fry???s closing < > https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Bay-Area-locations-Frys-Electronics-closed-14939907.php> > . Sad, but not the end of an era ??? apparently the loss of lease > > > > When I last visited a couple months ago, the one in Wilsonville, Oregon > hadn???t done any restocking to speak of (except a couple video games) for > months. The shelves were largely bare, and all the places they used to > store excess stock were empty. I might be down that way in a few weeks, if > so I???ll try to check on the status of the store. I know in October there > was a news article or two claiming they were in the process of restocking, > but based on my last visit, they seem dead. > > > > Zane > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 13:28:16 -0800 > From: Ali > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > Message-ID: <1MfprR-1jNMVN4Btx-00gIGd at mrelay.perfora.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > -------- Original message --------From: Fred Cisin?Fry's says that they > are doing fine.BUT, that they are moving to a "consignment" model - they > now plan to pay their suppliers only AFTER the merchandise sells.Or at > least that is what they are telling their creditors.They could revitalize > the stores, if they would add Jolt Cola, Canfield's Diet Chocolate Fudge > soda, potato chips, cookies, toothpaste, rosin-core lead solder, and > electronic components.? Maybe even collaborate with Fat-Brain to open a > computer literacy bookstore.--No. They are closing: > http://www.tonetoatl.com/2019/12/Frys-Electronics-Closed-Duluth-Gwinnett-Place.htmlI > really can't see any manufacturers lining up behind the Fry's BS. They just > don't have the foot traffic for it.?Now as Fred says if they went back to > filling a niche that is very empty (i.e. an electronics part retailer with > stock of hard to get goods on hand) that may work. I hate having to order > 50 capacitors from China everytime I need one....? > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 13:32:42 -0800 > From: "Ali" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Subject: RE: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > Message-ID: <016901d5c021$d6407560$82c16020$@net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Re-sending for legibility... > > >Fry's says that they > > are doing fine.BUT, that they are moving to a "consignment" model - > > they now plan to pay their suppliers only AFTER the merchandise > > sells.Or at least that is what they are telling their creditors.They > > could revitalize the stores, if they would add Jolt Cola, Canfield's > > Diet Chocolate Fudge soda, potato chips, cookies, toothpaste, rosin- > > core lead solder, and electronic components. Maybe even collaborate > > with Fat-Brain to open a computer literacy bookstore.-- > > > No. They are closing: > http://www.tonetoatl.com/2019/12/Frys-Electronics-Closed-Duluth-Gwinnett-Place.html > > > I really can't see any manufacturers lining up behind the Fry's BS. They > just don't have the foot traffic for it. Now as Fred says if they went back > to filling a niche that is very empty (i.e. an electronics part retailer > with stock of hard to get goods on hand) that may work. I hate having to > order 50 capacitors from China every time I need one.... > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 13:53:16 -0800 > From: jim stephens > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > > > On 12/31/2019 1:32 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > Re-sending for legibility... > > > >> Fry's says that they > >> are doing fine.BUT, that they are moving to a "consignment" model - > >> they now plan to pay their suppliers only AFTER the merchandise > >> sells.Or at least that is what they are telling their creditors.They > >> could revitalize the stores, if they would add Jolt Cola, Canfield's > >> Diet Chocolate Fudge soda, potato chips, cookies, toothpaste, rosin- > >> core lead solder, and electronic components. Maybe even collaborate > >> with Fat-Brain to open a computer literacy bookstore.-- > > > > No. They are closing: > http://www.tonetoatl.com/2019/12/Frys-Electronics-Closed-Duluth-Gwinnett-Place.html > > > > > > I really can't see any manufacturers lining up behind the Fry's BS. They > just don't have the foot traffic for it. Now as Fred says if they went back > to filling a niche that is very empty (i.e. an electronics part retailer > with stock of hard to get goods on hand) that may work. I hate having to > order 50 capacitors from China every time I need one.... > They actually were changing to a way of flooring the merchandise closer > to the food industry.? Many things on the shelf in larger supermarkets > are actually managed and stocked at the expense of the people who have > the shelfspace.? So that becomes critical. > > Years ago a drug chain called Zody's used the same method, but for > entire areas of stock, not by item. > > A friend had a pitabread business and went into Ralphs (Krogers in > Southern ,CA).? The buyin for about 2' of space was about $500,000 then > you had to supply the stock.? Payback came to you when you shipped more > to them than they returned or discarded stale (or put in markdown). > > Frito-Lay as well as some of the alcohol aisle actually send in > personnel twice a day to do the stocking.? The store staff doesn't touch > it. > > Anyway it doesn't seem to be happening, i heard the story Fred has 3 > months ago, and it doesn't take this long to do the deal if it's going > to work. > > Years ago when they expanded a friend who had a similar electronics > business said that the electronics side of Fry's was done with large > amounts of debt.? My friend's store was well positioned to expand, but > they wouldn't do the debt model Fry's did. > > That said, either Fry's is profitable, or they've paid down their debt > to where they can withstand what is going on.? If it were a business > with a large debt load the banks wouldn't let them take a week, must > less 3 months and counting to do what is going on. > > And those 100,000sf store rent keeps on ticking full or empty. > > thanks > Jim > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 14:02:13 -0800 (PST) > From: Fred Cisin > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > Who else, but Fry's, has had the impact that third parties have posted > Fry's employment applications? > > jhttp://homepage.smc.edu/engfer_mark/frys.htm > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 16:28:34 -0600 > From: John Herron > To: Fred Cisin , "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > Message-ID: > < > CAEOGs+hu+qFbb--rJKLdA8PK7Lk8jfFzOCPXQE5krx76Ber+JQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Two brilliant minds on this list drinking Canfield's Diet Chocolate Fudge > soda? Guess I need to hop on this mystery band wagon. > > Our Fry's in Austin has also suffered over months of almost nothing on > shelves. Definitely doesn't have the feeling of a company doing well. > They've lost several sales from friends and myself that would have bought > an item if we could see it in person and had it "now". > > Ashame they (and online shopping?) knocked out almost all the other > retailers and competition from town. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 04:24:03 +0000 > From: Mike Begley > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: New Member Introduction > Message-ID: > < > MWHPR1801MB1870FFAA07F9ED7D333F4A96AC210 at MWHPR1801MB1870.namprd18.prod.outlook.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hello! New member to cctalk here. I am located in Seattle, and in the > past have worked for a couple largish companies in the Seattle area you've > heard of. > > Through the 80s and 90s I had accumulated a fairly sizable collection of > classic (and not yet classic) computers. Mostly this was along two > branches of machines - Atari 8 bit computers and 80s-era minicomputers & > workstations, including a couple smaller VAXen, a PDP-8 and a large stack > of HP9000/300 machines. Also I had a couple of no-name S-100 machines and > a pretty nice one from California Computer Systems. > > When I moved from the Midwest following college I had to abandon much of > that collection. In the last several years I have started to reconstitute > that collection, at least in the basics. I'm still looking for a genuine > VT100 (or stretch goal - VT278), and in 2020 I'm planning to finally bring > up a simulated VAX cluster using Raspberry Pis and SIMH, since original > hardware is pretty much impossible to find anymore (and fragile when you > can find it). It's frustrating to be hunting for things I had three or > four of at one point... > > Happy to be here, > -mike begley > spam at hell.org > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 04:38:35 +0000 > From: Mike Begley > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: RE: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > Message-ID: > < > MWHPR1801MB1870BB1A1A2E01BB2D6ECC06AC210 at MWHPR1801MB1870.namprd18.prod.outlook.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > >> > >> Palo Alto Fry?s closing < > https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Bay-Area-locations-Frys-Electronics-closed-14939907.php > >> . Sad, but not the end of an era ? apparently the loss of lease > > > > When I last visited a couple months ago, the one in Wilsonville, Oregon > hadn?t done any restocking to speak of > > (except a couple video games) for months. The shelves were largely > bare, and all the places they used to store > > excess stock were empty. I might be down that way in a few weeks, if so > I?ll try to check on the status of the > > store. I know in October there was a news article or two claiming they > were in the process of restocking, > > but based on my last visit, they seem dead. > > I went to the one outside Seattle a few months ago, and the shelves were > perhaps 15-20% full, at best. It was kinda creepy and kinda sad. We > chatted with one of the stockers, and they said that they just didn't have > the traffic to bring in inventory, so it's the chicken & the egg problem. > They're were also allocating part of the store to do online fulfillment, > and just trying to ramp up their online presence. > > I doubt they'll last until spring. There's no way they can afford the > rent, inventory and payroll on the amount of customers they have these days. > > -mike > spam at hell.org > > > > > End of cctech Digest, Vol 64, Issue 1 > ************************************* > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jan 1 15:41:59 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 21:41:59 -0000 Subject: Replacing Electrolytic Capacitors on VAXmate Video Board In-Reply-To: <021701d5bf3c$bff5aef0$3fe10cd0$@ntlworld.com> References: <021701d5bf3c$bff5aef0$3fe10cd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <029201d5c0ec$4c5436e0$e4fca4a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via > cctalk > Sent: 30 December 2019 18:13 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Replacing Electrolytic Capacitors on VAXmate Video Board > > I have my VAXmate in pieces at the moment because the PSU has failed. I > am still working on finding the fault there, although it seems to be the > crowbar circuit that is shutting it down. To work out the problem I am going > to buy a DSO (Rigol DS1054Z) as my regular scope is analog and not much use > in detecting one-off events. It is an odd fault because there was a definite > bad smell after the failure, but I can't find any blown components. Whatever > blew up has presumably taken something on the PSU board with it, but I > don't know what yet. The PSU shuts down even with none of the other > VAXmate boards attached (and using a scratch HDD as a load). > > > Anyway, while I have the machine open, I thought I would look at the video > board capacitors too. Before the PSU failed, I noticed a bit of an occasional > wobble in the screen image and a narrowing of the image at the top of the > screen. I have measured ESR on all the electrolytics. All the larger capacitors > seem to have a low ESR compared to the table printed on my ESR meter, > some of the small ones (15uF/16V sort of size) have an ESR closer to the > values printed on my ESR meter. I don't really want to replace everything if I > don't have to, but equally I don't want any kind of failure to ruin an > irreplaceable component like the transformer. Should I just re-cap the lot, or > just the physically smaller capacitors? > Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I am not sure how extensively to replace the electrolytics. Thanks Rob From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 1 16:11:00 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 15:11:00 -0700 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: References: <04de5ace-8c65-4e95-434f-62f8d3b0a39c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4c3c2454-229e-6a02-e498-fcdaf2301dd7@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/1/2020 11:36 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > I am no longer marketing modern(ish) electronic components for retail > - there is no money there. All that stuff - 1000s of ICs and > capacitors and connectors are going out for metal recovery. Yes, it > hits home. > > -- > Will > Let us not forget, places like Digikey (sp) tend to have only the latest surface mount stuff, not handy to find thru the hole parts, or not so common part, like 120 ns one vers 200 ns one. But on the other hand Digikey has true overnight shipping, order before say 5 pm and get it the next day. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 1 16:42:12 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2020 16:42:12 -0600 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: <4c3c2454-229e-6a02-e498-fcdaf2301dd7@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <04de5ace-8c65-4e95-434f-62f8d3b0a39c@telegraphics.com.au> <4c3c2454-229e-6a02-e498-fcdaf2301dd7@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5E0D2044.4090405@pico-systems.com> On 01/01/2020 04:11 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 1/1/2020 11:36 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > >> I am no longer marketing modern(ish) electronic >> components for retail >> - there is no money there. All that stuff - 1000s of ICs and >> capacitors and connectors are going out for metal >> recovery. Yes, it >> hits home. >> >> -- >> Will >> > Let us not forget, places like Digikey (sp) tend to have > only the latest > surface mount stuff, not handy to find thru the hole > parts, or not so common part, like 120 ns one vers 200 ns > one. But on the other hand > Digikey has true overnight shipping, order before say 5 pm > and get it the next day. > > > Digi-Key still has plenty of through-hole parts, although less than the 2 million+ items they once stocked. Since I have a P&P machine, I, too, have moved over to using as much SMT as possible, but still use a lot of through-hole connectors and power transistors. Their search engine is great, and this has pushed other distributors to upgrade their search capability. Jon From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Wed Jan 1 16:42:47 2020 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 17:42:47 -0500 Subject: Sperry SP-425-08 Display - Datasheet? Message-ID: Hi all, I snagged one of these Nixie-like displays (from a calculator I assume) and I'd like to light it up. Does anyone know where I might find the datasheet for it? Google hasn't turned up anything. https://www.ebay.com/itm/264110638970 Any help is appreciated! -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com From bhilpert at shaw.ca Wed Jan 1 19:34:02 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 17:34:02 -0800 Subject: Sperry SP-425-08 Display - Datasheet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-Jan-01, at 2:42 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > I snagged one of these Nixie-like displays (from a calculator I assume) and > I'd like to light it up. Does anyone know where I might find the datasheet > for it? Google hasn't turned up anything. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/264110638970 > > Any help is appreciated! 7-segment multiplexed multi-digit gas-discharge display. Those Sperry types weren't very prevalent, I'm not surprised you haven't found a datasheet. I'm being a little presumptuous in specifying gas-disharge, it certainly appears to be, but the ebay pics are a little small. There was another series of GD displays from Sperry, and another from Beckman, which were more prevalent. Assuming it is GD: I have an example of one that appears to be of similar construction to yours in this calculator: http://madrona.ca/e/eec/calcs/SanyoICC83.html Given yours says made in Japan, I wonder if they be from the same OEM. I can send the schematic if you wish, for an example of drive circuitry. It needs a little reformatting and conversion to pdf first, so let me know if interested. I have other calculators and schematics using the Beckman displays (7-segment, multiplexed, multi-digit, gas-discharge). They could also be comparitive examples for drive circuitry. Multiplexed gas discharge displays could be a little finicky to drive, to keep down anomylous ghosting and partial ignition. In the absence of a datasheet, your first task would be to distinguish the digit anodes from the segment cathodes. You might be able to do it visually by looking at the internal construction. Otherwise experimentation with two probes connected to a 150-200V power supply with a series limiting resistor of 200K or maybe even higher to start with. From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Wed Jan 1 20:14:43 2020 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 21:14:43 -0500 Subject: Sperry SP-425-08 Display - Datasheet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow, thanks for all the info! I'd love to see examples of driving circuitry if it's not too much trouble. I've made PCBs and such before so aside from potentially jolting myself I'm up to the challenge. Anything I produce (code, schematics/PCBs) will be posted to my blog as open-source material. Thanks again, Anders On Wed, Jan 1, 2020, 8:34 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-Jan-01, at 2:42 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > I snagged one of these Nixie-like displays (from a calculator I assume) > and > > I'd like to light it up. Does anyone know where I might find the > datasheet > > for it? Google hasn't turned up anything. > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/264110638970 > > > > Any help is appreciated! > > > 7-segment multiplexed multi-digit gas-discharge display. > > Those Sperry types weren't very prevalent, I'm not surprised you haven't > found a datasheet. > > I'm being a little presumptuous in specifying gas-disharge, it certainly > appears to be, but the ebay pics are a little small. > > There was another series of GD displays from Sperry, and another from > Beckman, which were more prevalent. > > Assuming it is GD: > > I have an example of one that appears to be of similar construction to > yours in this calculator: > http://madrona.ca/e/eec/calcs/SanyoICC83.html > Given yours says made in Japan, I wonder if they be from the same OEM. > I can send the schematic if you wish, for an example of drive circuitry. > It needs a little reformatting and conversion to pdf first, so let me know > if interested. > > I have other calculators and schematics using the Beckman displays > (7-segment, multiplexed, multi-digit, gas-discharge). > They could also be comparitive examples for drive circuitry. > > Multiplexed gas discharge displays could be a little finicky to drive, to > keep down anomylous ghosting and partial ignition. > > In the absence of a datasheet, your first task would be to distinguish the > digit anodes from the segment cathodes. > You might be able to do it visually by looking at the internal > construction. > Otherwise experimentation with two probes connected to a 150-200V power > supply with a series limiting resistor of 200K or maybe even higher to > start with. > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 1 20:29:12 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 18:29:12 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: References: <04de5ace-8c65-4e95-434f-62f8d3b0a39c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 1/1/20 10:36 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > And then you weep and moan when another goes under... > > I am no longer marketing modern(ish) electronic components for retail > - there is no money there. All that stuff - 1000s of ICs and > capacitors and connectors are going out for metal recovery. Yes, it > hits home. I don't weep and moan about something from the past vanishes because of lack of interest, any more than I weep about the unavailability of RTL flatpacks or variocouplers or UV201s. How much of a run do you imagine that 5V TTL logic will have? It's pretty much incompatible with tiny cell geometries. The inexorable march of human progress; you do what you can to tread water, but eventually it overtakes you and the old paradigms don't work any longer. It's probably for the better; we old fossils won't be around much longer anyway. I suspect that my late father would understand the Internet any more than my grandfather would have understood electronics or his father, internal combustion engines. --Chuck From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Jan 1 20:40:55 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 18:40:55 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39EC68AB-B9A1-44FD-BF50-F0F978759BFF@snowmoose.com> > On Jan 1, 2020, at 09:23, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > ?I could see the writing on the wall when the local independent > electronics parts supplier (Norvac) closed in the 90s. That left > mail-order or Radio Shack, but the smaller stores who had very limited > inventories. I still have my portable all-band radio that I bought > around that time. It cost, IIRC, somewhere around $200. I listened to > the BBC World Service a lot during that time. I remember first hearing > about 9/11 on the WS. > > Now, of course, who listens to shortwave broadcast radio? The Internet > has killed off a lot of things, broadcast radio and TV among them. There are a lot of short wave services shutting down, but there is still a lot out there. With a 75-foot long piece of speaker wire run up a tree behind my house in the Seattle area, I can listen to stations in New Zealand and central Africa. Being able to listen stations that far away over the air with such a rudimentary setup gets some people interested in short wave. In a similar vein, supposedly cell phones are killing ham radio. Ham radio stores (who customers were buyers of electronics parts) have shut down in most places. But there are more license holders than ever and there is a bunch of public interest in it (for emergency preparedness and such). alan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 1 20:45:04 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 21:45:04 -0500 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: References: <04de5ace-8c65-4e95-434f-62f8d3b0a39c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > I don't weep and moan about something from the past vanishes because of > lack of interest, Is the list not all about interest in obsolete computer technology, and getting these weird old machines going again? > any more than I weep about the unavailability of RTL > flatpacks or variocouplers or UV201s. Variocouplers and UV-201s? Bring them on. The market for those items still exists, and is quite decent. The old timers still know how the surplus market works. > How much of a run do you imagine > that 5V TTL logic will have? It's pretty much incompatible with tiny > cell geometries. Um...again...this list? 7400 logic is still in demand, to a smallish extent, with hobbyists. Like people trying to get PDP-11s and stuff going again. But it really does not matter. I could have a pallet of currentish RPis, and, well, I would end up dying with a pallet of RPis. -- Will From nw.johnson at ieee.org Wed Jan 1 20:51:59 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 21:51:59 -0500 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: References: <04de5ace-8c65-4e95-434f-62f8d3b0a39c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4f147a2f-55ca-f5ab-ca29-d518c8787b09@ieee.org> And for those who own old vibrator sets, the Royal Signals Amateur Radio Club in the UK makes batches of solid state plug-in vibrators. I just love the smell of the anti-fungal spray and the hum of warm valves on those old radios! There will always be ways and means to find parts for old equipment - and the internet makes it easier to find them. No, you cannot walk into a store and buy them, but that is is another sign of the times.?? I just needed some rolls of hookup wire - instead of putting the snowshoes on and traipsing through the snowdrifts, I just clicked on an Amazon button and let their drivers worry about getting it to me! cheers, Nigel On 01/01/2020 21:45, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> I don't weep and moan about something from the past vanishes because of >> lack of interest, > Is the list not all about interest in obsolete computer technology, > and getting these weird old machines going again? > >> any more than I weep about the unavailability of RTL >> flatpacks or variocouplers or UV201s. > Variocouplers and UV-201s? Bring them on. The market for those items > still exists, and is quite decent. The old timers still know how the > surplus market works. > >> How much of a run do you imagine >> that 5V TTL logic will have? It's pretty much incompatible with tiny >> cell geometries. > Um...again...this list? 7400 logic is still in demand, to a smallish > extent, with hobbyists. Like people trying to get PDP-11s and stuff > going again. > > But it really does not matter. I could have a pallet of currentish > RPis, and, well, I would end up dying with a pallet of RPis. > > -- > Will -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 1 23:41:06 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:41:06 -0700 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: <4f147a2f-55ca-f5ab-ca29-d518c8787b09@ieee.org> References: <04de5ace-8c65-4e95-434f-62f8d3b0a39c@telegraphics.com.au> <4f147a2f-55ca-f5ab-ca29-d518c8787b09@ieee.org> Message-ID: <66389984-cae5-aacf-081a-71e756732d39@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/1/2020 7:51 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > And for those who own old vibrator sets, the Royal Signals Amateur Radio > Club in the UK makes batches of solid state plug-in vibrators. > > I just love the smell of the anti-fungal spray and the hum of warm > valves on those old radios! > > There will always be ways and means to find parts for old equipment - > and the internet makes it easier to find them. No, you cannot walk into > a store and buy them, but that is is another sign of the times.?? I just > needed some rolls of hookup wire - instead of putting the snowshoes on > and traipsing through the snowdrifts, I just clicked on an Amazon button > and let their drivers worry about getting it to me! But I want 600V hookup wire. Not every thing is less than 50 volts. Solder with lead... Quad Electrostaic speakers ... New vinyl LPS ... > cheers, > > Nigel > I suspect the big thing with retro projects, is that they are easy to construct. A radio needs wire, a diode , and more wire for the headpones. A pi project has just pre-made PCB's and a solderless breadboad. A 8 bit computer, some IC's and a chinese PCB. > Ben. From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Wed Jan 1 16:55:49 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:55:49 -0600 Subject: Sperry SP-425-08 Display - Datasheet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4f20e8a9-2b9e-a21b-32e1-94686a9f7f70@figureeightbrewing.com> Not exactly it, but may be helpful: http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/Sperry_01.pdf This guy appears to have a data sheet: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/sperry-sp-425-09-vfd-display-segment-127958028 This guy has a similar unit and a spec sheet for it which you might ask for: https://picclick.com/48-X-SPERRY-SP-424-09-9Digit-Plasma-Display-Panel-232352373221.html On 1/1/20 4:42 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > I snagged one of these Nixie-like displays (from a calculator I assume) and > I'd like to light it up. Does anyone know where I might find the datasheet > for it? Google hasn't turned up anything. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/264110638970 > > Any help is appreciated! > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Wed Jan 1 17:00:25 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 17:00:25 -0600 Subject: Sperry SP-425-08 Display - Datasheet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42f66e91-6da1-5217-c984-6a44f25e0856@figureeightbrewing.com> Here is another guy who likely has the info you want: https://www.industrialalchemy.org/storearticleview.php?item=95 And a site about reverse engineering: https://medium.com/@rxseger/reverse-engineering-the-pinout-of-vacuum-fluorescent-displays-vfds-hnv11ss27-fip7fm7-and-hnv-8a00b0530b52 On 1/1/20 4:42 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > I snagged one of these Nixie-like displays (from a calculator I assume) and > I'd like to light it up. Does anyone know where I might find the datasheet > for it? Google hasn't turned up anything. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/264110638970 > > Any help is appreciated! > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 2 00:11:50 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:11:50 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: <66389984-cae5-aacf-081a-71e756732d39@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <04de5ace-8c65-4e95-434f-62f8d3b0a39c@telegraphics.com.au> <4f147a2f-55ca-f5ab-ca29-d518c8787b09@ieee.org> <66389984-cae5-aacf-081a-71e756732d39@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <9ed406f0-bbab-9cd3-f4e1-f4f5c0493ca0@sydex.com> On 1/1/20 9:41 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 1/1/2020 7:51 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > But I want 600V hookup wire. Not every thing is less than 50 volts. > Solder with lead... Quad Electrostaic speakers ... New vinyl LPS ... I think you have to know where to look: https://www.remingtonindustries.com/hook-up-wire/ --Chuck From mark at markesystems.com Thu Jan 2 01:41:28 2020 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 23:41:28 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 64, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6FACE978E03D4E8F805C413099B94DE0@Daedalus> >>> I ordered two from Mouser this week. >> >> And paid in much in S&H (if not more) to buy the two from Mouser then it >> would have cost to get 50 from China... ;) > > And what would I do with 50 when I need 2? I often order from DigiKey or Mouser, but I build ("manufacture") some electronic products in small batches, and I can often piggy-back some personal items onto one of those orders to save shipping. I also frequently order items will-call from Jameco, which is located about two miles from my house. They certainly don't have the huge stock or up-to-date parts that DigiKey and Mouser do, and their web site is atrocious, but I certainly can't beat the convenience. They have a far larger variety of stock than Fry's or Radio Shack ever did, and they're generally a lot cheaper than a retail store, or even DK or M. Surprisingly, there's still an old-school electronics store in the area, too: Sam Mateo Electronics. They even have an old-style drug store tube tester, although they don't stock tubes any more (I think). When I'm buying parts, or almost anything except for tools, I usually order more than I need. Over the (many, many) years, this has resulted in me having a range of parts and other material "in stock" that I would have totally envied in my younger years. I've now reached the point where I'm trying to adapt my designs to make do with the parts I have in stock, rather than having to order new ones. Unlike in earlier years, this isn't due to cost, but rather to try to use up all of the *stuff* I've accumulated over the years... ~~ Mark Moulding From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 02:42:27 2020 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 09:42:27 +0100 Subject: Sperry SP-425-08 Display - Datasheet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <530969C6-7ADA-4449-83A1-829462A3F33D@gmail.com> The HP 59304A numeric display unit uses similar technology displays and has the complete schematics available (at least I have them somewhere). Also you can buy from Artek media: https://www.ebay.com/c/1718687526 Maybe you can inspire yourself from that. Marc > On Jan 1, 2020, at 11:42 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > > I snagged one of these Nixie-like displays (from a calculator I assume) and > I'd like to light it up. Does anyone know where I might find the datasheet > for it? Google hasn't turned up anything. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/264110638970 > > Any help is appreciated! > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Thu Jan 2 12:15:33 2020 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 18:15:33 +0000 Subject: Portlock Storage Manager? Message-ID: Anyone on here remember NetWare? :P There used to (fairly recently) be a company called Portlock that made a utility called Portlock Storage manager, which was really excellent, for dealing with storage volumes. Their website was portlock.com. But they seem to be gone now. Does anyone know what happened to them? They used to publish license keys that would expire after about 6 months on their page, but I really hope they didn't go out of business. Thanks! From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Jan 2 13:02:48 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 11:02:48 -0800 Subject: Odd vintage computer sellers Message-ID: <8e12b621-2d09-ed43-a77d-9a0417167e36@snowmoose.com> Most of us who collect vintage computers probably have our own stories like this, but I find this so amusing that I just have to share it. Last year I did an exhibit on SPARC clones for VCF PNW and wanted to include a Solbourne in it. Unable to cajole Cameron into loaning me one :-), I went looking for one to buy on eBay. There was a seller with, among other Solbourne hardware, a listing for some number of IDT S4000DXs. They had started with 6 and were down to 4-5 when I started looking. IIRC, the base Buy-It-Now (BIN) price was around $225, but, when they didn't sell, they were relisted with a varying discount. In relistings, the BIN was as low as $167. In a relisting where the discounted price was $195 BIN, I offered $175. The seller didn't accept and, in the counter offer exchange, eventually went above the discounted price. I didn't go for that. Then, in the next relisting, the discounted price was $167. I bought one. They were being sold with a HDD and a Solbourne frame buffer (Sun frame buffers don't work in S4000DXs), but no keyboard or mouse (Solbournes use proprietary keyboards and mice). The one that I got had a dead Sun0424 (Seagate ST1480N) HDD and, I found out later, a broken frame buffer. I put in a SD2SCSI and installed OS/MP (Solbourne's version of BSD SunOS). From the serial console, it worked fine and I included the system in my VCF PNW exhibit. After the show, I spent some time trying to make a Solbourne to Sun keyboard adapter, but couldn't get it to work. I have had it up for sale for a few months (my attention is now focused on the barn-find Sun 3/260 that I hope to have working for this year's VCF PNW). But, back to the seller that I got the S4000DX from ... The seller is still trying to sell 2 of the original 6 S4000DXs (that at one point included the one that I have). However, the pricing has changed. Now, instead of the old base price of around $225, the base price is now $3060. Yes, $3000. But they are being offered with an 83% discount, so one can get a S4000DX for the low, low price of just under $500. I find this amazing and odd. alan From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jan 2 13:02:59 2020 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 11:02:59 -0800 Subject: Portlock Storage Manager? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200102110259.0b7d2bbe@asrock> On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 18:15:33 +0000 Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk wrote: > Anyone on here remember NetWare? :P I started and ran a network VAR company which was both Novell (Netware) Certified and IBM Business Partners. We sold a LOT of Netware, associated network cards, cabling and services. Both Novell and IBM were a terrific partners - and provided us with outstanding products for our customers. They also helped make us very profitable. It was the best of all worlds ;) IMHO, in the late 80's and early 90's Novell servers, and then Netware, were the best networking game in town! --snip-- Cheers, Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West Inc. https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 2 13:06:17 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 11:06:17 -0800 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3a_Lars_Hamr=c3=a9n_/_Computer_Automation_Museum_Proje?= =?UTF-8?Q?ct?= In-Reply-To: <02654cae-e830-4e41-4a1a-fff42983827b@bitsavers.org> References: <0f85083f-95f8-0c25-b3e3-4922d9d3ccb0@bitsavers.org> <20191016170055.aejngcuuopxlaoli@Update.UU.SE> <20191016170149.mn5lbiw6tf3e5mfg@Update.UU.SE> <02654cae-e830-4e41-4a1a-fff42983827b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7f7c581d-7b26-a6a9-73c3-aee5bbd8c01d@bitsavers.org> I never heard anything more about this. It would be good to get the manuals back online On 10/16/19 10:13 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > there was an email adr on the site, and I've asked if I can mirror the > contents on bitsavers > > > On 10/16/19 10:01 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 07:00:55PM +0200, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: >>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 06:42:15PM +0200, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> svensk datorutveckling i lund (swedish computer development in Lund) >>>> >>>> >>> >>> There is/was a Lars Hamr?n at sdu. I know because I >>> have met him when he picked up some CA computers from >>> a friend. >>> >>> /P >> >> And I can reach out to him and ask bout the page. >> >> /P >> > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 2 13:13:55 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 11:13:55 -0800 Subject: Odd vintage computer sellers In-Reply-To: <8e12b621-2d09-ed43-a77d-9a0417167e36@snowmoose.com> References: <8e12b621-2d09-ed43-a77d-9a0417167e36@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <0692b19c-94af-6207-3e3b-d2e46e4294ca@bitsavers.org> On 1/2/20 11:02 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > I find this amazing and odd. I've noticed prices going up on eBay a LOT, without even including obscene shipping charges AND sales tax and people parting out things, including attempting to sell individual disks of multi-disk sets. From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Jan 2 13:14:58 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 11:14:58 -0800 Subject: Odd vintage computer sellers In-Reply-To: <8e12b621-2d09-ed43-a77d-9a0417167e36@snowmoose.com> References: <8e12b621-2d09-ed43-a77d-9a0417167e36@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <23672B5A-9F68-40BB-8AF0-F1267515D4A5@avanthar.com> > On Jan 2, 2020, at 11:02 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > The seller is still trying to sell 2 of the original 6 S4000DXs (that at one point included the one that I have). However, the pricing has changed. Now, instead of the old base price of around $225, the base price is now $3060. Yes, $3000. But they are being offered with an 83% discount, so one can get a S4000DX for the low, low price of just under $500. > > I find this amazing and odd. > > alan If the seller gets lucky and finds a business, or someone supporting a Government contract that just *HAS* to have the system, then $3000 is a good deal. More likely than not it will continue to sit. I?ve been after a manual for months. There is one up on eBay for $520, it?s been there for months. A few weeks ago the seller sent out an offer to anyone watching, with an offer of $399, I sent a counter offer of $99. I just bought a copy that turned up yesterday for $20. I?ve been watching VAXstation prices. Now there is something all over the place. I don?t really need any more VAX hardware, I?ve moved to emulation, but wouldn?t mind a working 4000/VLC. What I really want are a couple terminals, and especially a specific keyboard that can be used on my VT420. I can find them at times, just not at prices that make sense for me to buy. Zane From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 2 13:36:10 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 11:36:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Odd vintage computer sellers In-Reply-To: <8e12b621-2d09-ed43-a77d-9a0417167e36@snowmoose.com> from Alan Perry via cctalk at "Jan 2, 20 11:02:48 am" Message-ID: <202001021936.002JaAsT24969284@floodgap.com> > Most of us who collect vintage computers probably have our own stories > like this, but I find this so amusing that I just have to share it. > Last year I did an exhibit on SPARC clones for VCF PNW and wanted to > include a Solbourne in it. Unable to cajole Cameron into loaning me one > :-), I went looking for one to buy on eBay. I'm a jealous collector :) I do think an S3000 would display well. Stephen Dowdy sent me his old one and I should try to tidy it up as an exhibit. My "S3000DX" is too precious to me; that one stays here. > There was a seller with, among other Solbourne hardware, a listing for > some number of IDT S4000DXs. They had started with 6 and were down to > 4-5 when I started looking. IIRC, the base Buy-It-Now (BIN) price was > around $225, but, when they didn't sell, they were relisted with a > varying discount. In relistings, the BIN was as low as $167. [...] > The seller is still trying to sell 2 of the original 6 S4000DXs (that at > one point included the one that I have). However, the pricing has > changed. Now, instead of the old base price of around $225, the base > price is now $3060. Yes, $3000. But they are being offered with an 83% > discount, so one can get a S4000DX for the low, low price of just under > $500. > > I find this amazing and odd. It's really rather ludicrous, given how even the IDT Solbournes really only run OS/MP. My affection for them is largely nostalgia; as SPARC systems they are quite finicky and the later SPARCstations surpassed even the S4100 in performance. It's really the S3000 that's the gem because of that wacky plasma display. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- ASK ME ABOUT MY VOW OF SILENCE!!!! ----------------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 2 13:37:51 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 11:37:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: NetWare for PowerPC was Re: Portlock Storage Manager? In-Reply-To: <20200102110259.0b7d2bbe@asrock> from Lyle Bickley via cctalk at "Jan 2, 20 11:02:59 am" Message-ID: <202001021937.002JbpHa21823646@floodgap.com> > > Anyone on here remember NetWare? :P > > I started and ran a network VAR company which was both Novell (Netware) > Certified and IBM Business Partners. We sold a LOT of Netware, associated > network cards, cabling and services. Both Novell and IBM were a terrific > partners - and provided us with outstanding products for our customers. They > also helped make us very profitable. It was the best of all worlds ;) > > IMHO, in the late 80's and early 90's Novell servers, and then Netware, were > the best networking game in town! Anyone done anything with Netware *for PowerPC*? Allegedly there was some attempt at Apple to put it on what later became the Network Servers (the codename was apparently "Wormhole"). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- yankee hotel foxtrot. yankee hotel foxtrot. yankee hotel foxtrot. konec. --- From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 2 13:54:11 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 11:54:11 -0800 Subject: NetWare for PowerPC was Re: Portlock Storage Manager? In-Reply-To: <202001021937.002JbpHa21823646@floodgap.com> References: <202001021937.002JbpHa21823646@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <927422b9-2043-1f51-f534-68db15c764b3@bitsavers.org> On 1/2/20 11:37 AM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > Anyone done anything with Netware *for PowerPC*? Allegedly there was > some attempt at Apple to put it on what later became the Network Servers > (the codename was apparently "Wormhole"). > I know the people who were working in it (based on Portable NetWare) AFAIK it never shipped. From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Jan 2 14:38:38 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 12:38:38 -0800 Subject: Odd vintage computer sellers In-Reply-To: <202001021936.002JaAsT24969284@floodgap.com> References: <202001021936.002JaAsT24969284@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <435d72e6-bd79-7739-ac1e-6e3015ad581e@snowmoose.com> On 1/2/20 11:36 AM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> The seller is still trying to sell 2 of the original 6 S4000DXs (that at >> one point included the one that I have). However, the pricing has >> changed. Now, instead of the old base price of around $225, the base >> price is now $3060. Yes, $3000. But they are being offered with an 83% >> discount, so one can get a S4000DX for the low, low price of just under >> $500. >> >> I find this amazing and odd. What I think is amazing and odd is $3000 for basically untested systems. They don't even seem to connect up a serial console and see what the diagnostic messages are displayed. > It's really rather ludicrous, given how even the IDT Solbournes really only > run OS/MP. My affection for them is largely nostalgia; as SPARC systems they > are quite finicky and the later SPARCstations surpassed even the S4100 in > performance. Don't say that. I am still trying to sell one :) They are these great systems :) The cool heat sink! The Panasonic branded SPARC processor and other components! alan From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 2 15:35:20 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 13:35:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: NetWare for PowerPC was Re: Portlock Storage Manager? In-Reply-To: <927422b9-2043-1f51-f534-68db15c764b3@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow via cctalk at "Jan 2, 20 11:54:11 am" Message-ID: <202001022135.002LZKVZ36569176@floodgap.com> > > Anyone done anything with Netware *for PowerPC*? Allegedly there was > > some attempt at Apple to put it on what later became the Network Servers > > (the codename was apparently "Wormhole"). > > I know the people who were working in it (based on Portable NetWare) > AFAIK it never shipped. Was this based on the Cygnus PowerPC port, or was it Apple-specific? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ---- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 2 15:42:02 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 13:42:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Odd vintage computer sellers In-Reply-To: <435d72e6-bd79-7739-ac1e-6e3015ad581e@snowmoose.com> from Alan Perry via cctalk at "Jan 2, 20 12:38:38 pm" Message-ID: <202001022142.002Lg2Uc24969362@floodgap.com> > > It's really rather ludicrous, given how even the IDT Solbournes really only > > run OS/MP. My affection for them is largely nostalgia; as SPARC systems they > > are quite finicky and the later SPARCstations surpassed even the S4100 in > > performance. > > Don't say that. I am still trying to sell one :) They are these great > systems :) The cool heat sink! The Panasonic branded SPARC processor and > other components! I mean, they're fabulotastic! ;) The MN10501 is certainly one of the most unique SPARCs, if merely for the KAP name ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Focus is all about saying no. -- early Apple employee ---------------------- From cym224 at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 15:46:05 2020 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 16:46:05 -0500 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: <04de5ace-8c65-4e95-434f-62f8d3b0a39c@telegraphics.com.au> References: <04de5ace-8c65-4e95-434f-62f8d3b0a39c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4f126c93-a03e-3ce1-9a91-be42d49d1d1d@gmail.com> On 01/01/20 11:07, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote (in part): > On 2019-12-31 5:52 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote (in part): >> On an interesting note, I read an article recently, that popped up in my financial news. Delivery services have reached the breaking point in the cities, due to the amount of deliveries, and the lack of parking. > Huh. I wonder how postal mail ever worked. Well, Canada Post stopped delivering to individual houses years ago. In you live in the GTA, you still have Sayal. N. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Jan 2 15:55:07 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 13:55:07 -0800 Subject: NetWare for PowerPC was Re: Portlock Storage Manager? In-Reply-To: <202001022135.002LZKVZ36569176@floodgap.com> References: <202001022135.002LZKVZ36569176@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 1/2/2020 1:35 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >>> Anyone done anything with Netware *for PowerPC*? Allegedly there was >>> some attempt at Apple to put it on what later became the Network Servers >>> (the codename was apparently "Wormhole"). >> I know the people who were working in it (based on Portable NetWare) >> AFAIK it never shipped. > Was this based on the Cygnus PowerPC port, or was it Apple-specific? > Sun did a power? PC? port I think paid for by IBM, which would have run on both the open Apple servers that briefly existed, and on IBM PPC systems. A lot of odd PPC work happened in a group a friend worked for in Austin TX, but not sure if they did Netware work there.? There was a lot of OS2 work there as well, but that's off track a bit more. thanks Jim From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 15:57:14 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 16:57:14 -0500 Subject: Odd vintage computer sellers In-Reply-To: <0692b19c-94af-6207-3e3b-d2e46e4294ca@bitsavers.org> References: <8e12b621-2d09-ed43-a77d-9a0417167e36@snowmoose.com> <0692b19c-94af-6207-3e3b-d2e46e4294ca@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > I've noticed prices going up on eBay a LOT, without even including obscene shipping charges AND sales tax > and people parting out things, including attempting to sell individual disks of multi-disk sets. I think much of this has to do with changes Ebay made in 2019. The only sellers that can really survive on Ebay now are high volume & low margin, or low volume & high margin. There is no money to be made in the middle with reasonable prices, and many of those sellers that are reasonable have moved elsewhere. The result is a bunch of ultra-cheap Chi-junk, and floods of sellers that want all the money (and more). -- Will From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Jan 2 16:22:53 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2020 14:22:53 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: <4f126c93-a03e-3ce1-9a91-be42d49d1d1d@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0M71wB-1jhavr2MEf-00wmIW@mrelay.perfora.net> >Well, Canada Post stopped delivering to individual >houses years ago.How does that work?-Ali From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Jan 2 17:31:02 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:31:02 -0600 Subject: Odd vintage computer sellers In-Reply-To: <202001022142.002Lg2Uc24969362@floodgap.com> References: <435d72e6-bd79-7739-ac1e-6e3015ad581e@snowmoose.com> <202001022142.002Lg2Uc24969362@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 2, 2020, 3:42 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > It's really rather ludicrous, given how even the IDT Solbournes really > only > > > run OS/MP. My affection for them is largely nostalgia; as SPARC > systems they > > > are quite finicky and the later SPARCstations surpassed even the S4100 > in > > > performance. > > > > Don't say that. I am still trying to sell one :) They are these great > > systems :) The cool heat sink! The Panasonic branded SPARC processor and > > other components! > > I mean, they're fabulotastic! ;) > > The MN10501 is certainly one of the most unique SPARCs, if merely for the > KAP name ... > Many of the initial run of KAP unfortunately had a bug that caused the chip to self destruct over time. I have an old KAP that suffered from this issue. The guys from hardware came around and replaced them all and I got to keep the defective one... Warner -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Focus is all about saying no. -- early Apple employee > ---------------------- > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Jan 2 17:49:09 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 15:49:09 -0800 Subject: Odd vintage computer sellers In-Reply-To: References: <8e12b621-2d09-ed43-a77d-9a0417167e36@snowmoose.com> <0692b19c-94af-6207-3e3b-d2e46e4294ca@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <023101d5c1c7$3a8205b0$af861110$@net> > I think much of this has to do with changes Ebay made in 2019. The > only sellers that can really survive on Ebay now are high volume & low > margin, or low volume & high margin. There is no money to be made in > the middle with reasonable prices, and many of those sellers that are > reasonable have moved elsewhere. Huh? What changes from eBay? Aside from tax which was driven by the states nothing has really changed. Prices are going up (mostly) because people think they can get higher prices. And why not? When people are paying $2000 for a video card and $1500 for a KB everybody think they are sitting on a stash of gold. I see sellers listing the same item year after year with no change in price. You would think they would want to move the inventory but not so. The inventory was bought super cheap, has been sitting in a warehouse (forgotten) for years, and is effectively free (i.e. other inventory is paying for rent and overhead) so no need to drop the price. In fact if anything this is an impetus to raise price because it is now even harder to find as all the reasonably priced units have been sold already... I recently wanted to buy an EISA card - seller has 5 listed at 19.95 plus S&H w/ best offer. They also go on "sale" regularly for 15-20% off. He has had them for years (I needed a replacement for one I bought for $9.95 shipped a couple of years back). I contacted them to make sure they were really in stock and check on the revision of the board and suddenly price is $51. Now you tell me what does eBay have anything to do with this price increase? Prices are up because economy is good -> more people with cash to spend on hobbies/wants vs. needs -> inflation (sellers charging more because they can) -> prices up. Just my two worthless cents... -Ali From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 17:57:30 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 16:57:30 -0700 Subject: First Internet message In-Reply-To: <1577706236269.37557@w2hx.com> References: <6A2FA7EF-4900-4B49-8977-BA8A653C498B@comcast.net> <1577706236269.37557@w2hx.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 4:44 AM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > software is currently non-patentable. Not sure the order of when it > was/wasnt but currently is not. > I don't know anything about patents in other countries, but in the USA, software is _definitely_ patentable, and has been since the 1970s. It was ruled in 1853 that an abstract idea apart from its implementation is not patentable (O'Reilly v. Morse). However, it has later been considered that software is (or at least can be) more than just an abstract idea (Diamond v. Diehr 1981). What changed recently is that SCOTUS ruled in Alice Corp. V. CLS Bank International, 573 U.S. 208 (2014) that taking some existing process or business practice and doing exactly the same thing with a computer or software involved is NOT a new patentable invention. From cym224 at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 19:58:05 2020 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 20:58:05 -0500 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: <0M71wB-1jhavr2MEf-00wmIW@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0M71wB-1jhavr2MEf-00wmIW@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <350d5c3a-7a0a-21ec-0a91-32375abe6c73@gmail.com> On 01/02/20 17:22, Ali wrote: > > >Well, Canada Post stopped delivering to individual >houses years ago. > > > How does that work? Community mailboxes that serve a neighbourhood. You need to trek to one to pick up your mail. (https://www.canadapost.ca/cpc/en/personal/receiving/manage-mail/community-mailbox.page) N. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 20:11:02 2020 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 22:11:02 -0400 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: <350d5c3a-7a0a-21ec-0a91-32375abe6c73@gmail.com> References: <0M71wB-1jhavr2MEf-00wmIW@mrelay.perfora.net> <350d5c3a-7a0a-21ec-0a91-32375abe6c73@gmail.com> Message-ID: <893c999c-d819-3325-fb40-ab9cffa2cadd@gmail.com> On 2020-01-02 9:58 p.m., Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > On 01/02/20 17:22, Ali wrote: >> >> >Well, Canada Post stopped delivering to individual >houses years ago. >> >> >> How does that work? > Community mailboxes that serve a neighbourhood.? You need to trek to > one to pick up your mail. > (https://www.canadapost.ca/cpc/en/personal/receiving/manage-mail/community-mailbox.page) > > N. > A good part of the city where I live still has door to door delivery from Canada Post, but on the other hand the community where I grew up never did. Paul. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 2 21:38:27 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 19:38:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: First Internet message In-Reply-To: References: <6A2FA7EF-4900-4B49-8977-BA8A653C498B@comcast.net> <1577706236269.37557@w2hx.com> Message-ID: Another only partially related issue was copyright moving from the code itself to the "look and feel" of the finished product. Am I correct that it used to be possible to write a Puck-boy game that was hard to tell from it, IF the code was original. Hence lots of "clean-room/double-blind reverse engineering", to produce identically functioning products without using, or even seeing, the source code. I doubt that it was the ONLY case, but that was the issue for Adam Osborne's Paperback Software, which made a Lotus clone. Since then, it has to look different also. Lotus did not like that the menu choices in Paperback's products were the same ones. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Thu, 2 Jan 2020, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 4:44 AM W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > >> software is currently non-patentable. Not sure the order of when it >> was/wasnt but currently is not. >> > > I don't know anything about patents in other countries, but in the USA, > software is _definitely_ patentable, and has been since the 1970s. It was > ruled in 1853 that an abstract idea apart from its implementation is not > patentable (O'Reilly v. Morse). However, it has later been considered that > software is (or at least can be) more than just an abstract idea (Diamond > v. Diehr 1981). > > What changed recently is that SCOTUS ruled in Alice Corp. V. CLS Bank > International, 573 U.S. 208 (2014) that taking some existing process or > business practice and doing exactly the same thing with a computer or > software involved is NOT a new patentable invention. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Jan 2 22:11:02 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 20:11:02 -0800 Subject: OT post delivery / Re: Ordering parts onesie twos In-Reply-To: <893c999c-d819-3325-fb40-ab9cffa2cadd@gmail.com> References: <0M71wB-1jhavr2MEf-00wmIW@mrelay.perfora.net> <350d5c3a-7a0a-21ec-0a91-32375abe6c73@gmail.com> <893c999c-d819-3325-fb40-ab9cffa2cadd@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2020-Jan-02, at 6:11 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-01-02 9:58 p.m., Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: >> On 01/02/20 17:22, Ali wrote: >>> >>> >Well, Canada Post stopped delivering to individual >houses years ago. >>> >>> How does that work? >> Community mailboxes that serve a neighbourhood. You need to trek to one to pick up your mail. (https://www.canadapost.ca/cpc/en/personal/receiving/manage-mail/community-mailbox.page) >> >> N. >> > A good part of the city where I live still has door to door delivery from Canada Post, but on the other hand the community where I grew up never did. At-property delivery is still present in neighbourhoods whose development predates the change in delivery policy. The change, IIRC, was sometime in the late-70s. Neighbourhoods developed (subdivision/rezoning) after the policy change get community boxes, even if immediately adjacent to a neighbourhood with at-property. A new house built in an old (pre-change) neighbourhood will still get at-property. At least that's the general rule as I've observed it. Canada Post has tried to get rid of at-property delivery a few times and met with resistance. From u.tagge at gmx.de Thu Jan 2 15:14:49 2020 From: u.tagge at gmx.de (Ulrich Tagge) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 22:14:49 +0100 Subject: Portlock Storage Manager? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8bc0613f-5a1e-4d93-3e07-e33f073b70d0@gmx.de> Hi Benjamin, I was a Novell CNE for a longer time, and have started to work with NetWare 2.10 (non dedicated server) with the age of 15 in 1993. Have made my first real money with the migration of this NetWare 2.10 which was running on a small 80286 PC server to 3.12 on a Compaq SystemPro in 1994. Moved my last NetWare 6 Server in 2015 to OES and my last GroupWise system to Exchange in 2017. Portlock was a a tool I have used in the old days twice a month, but I think they have lost their customer base, as nobody really use NetWare traditional or NSS file systems any longer -Or? Their website Portlock.com has gone in 2019, but I have also no clue if they have end their business or if they simply have lost their domain. But try to call them, the number is may be still in use. https://web.archive.org/web/20190220183136/http://portlock.com/ Many Greetings Ulrich From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 18:44:34 2020 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Abraham) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 16:44:34 -0800 Subject: Large Batch of Macintosh (SE/II to iMac) RAM for Sale Message-ID: Hello Fellow Vintage Computing Aficionados. I have a large batch of RAM specific to the Macintosh (from Mac II/SE series up through iMac). Please inquire about any of the listings below. I apologize if I did not provide enough information, please contact me for additional specifications. These modules have been carefully stored away in anti-static bags, and some are still sealed/old-new stock. Pricing is for single (1), double (2), or quadruple (2) sets of modules, plus shipping. Shipping can be included with orders of multiple sets. Added up the asking price for everything in this listing is $400. I'll take $300 for the entire batch and will give such a sale priority over individual sales. A more readable listing (in spreadsheet format) can be found here ==> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=1529647969&range=70:70 Cubig 16MB 72-pin SIMM Sealed in anti-static bag. $6.00 Cubig 16MB 72-pin SIMM (2) 4X362S $12.00 Cubig 16MB 72-pin SIMM 4Mx36 $6.00 Fairchild 1MB 30-pin SIMM (2) 1Mx8 70ns $15.00 Hyundai 16MB 168-pin DIMM (2) HYM564224 AXG-60 $14.00 Hyundai 128MB PC-66 SDRAM HYM7V641601 TFG-10 $5.00 Kingston 128MB PC-100 SDRAM (2) KTA-G3100/128-CE $10.00 LG Semicon 4MB 72-pin SIMM (2) E71042 LG1; GMM7322000BN $10.00 Lifetime Memory 8MB 72-pin SIMM 10155A $5.00 Micron 128MB PC-100 SDRAM IH61959; PC100-222-620 $5.00 Mitsubishi 256K 72-pin SIMM (VRAM) 256Kx8; VRAM for Quadra 840av $12.00 Mitsubishi 4MB 30-pin SIMM (2) 4Mx8 $20.00 Mitsubishi 8MB 72-pin SIMM (2) 2MX32; MH12816AJ-8 $12.00 Mitsubishi 16MB 168-pin DIMM (2) 2Mx64 MH2M64CZPJ-6; MSAI AP168N9B-C $14.00 Motorola 1MB 72-pin SIMM MCM32256AS70, 256Kx32; for Macintosh LC 575 $6.00 Motorola 8MB 72-pin SIMM MCM32230SH60; 2MBx32 $6.00 NEC 8MB 168-pin DIMM (2) MC-421000AA64FB-70; 604 class $12.00 Panasonic 16MB 30-pin SIMM KJY-0364; 16X8-60; new in sealed anti-static pouch $10.00 RMR 16MB 72-pin SIMM (2) 4X32-60; sealed in anti-static bag $18.00 RMR 16MB 72-pin DIMM (2) HY5117400B 4Mx4 $15.00 RMR 32MB 168-pin DIMM 105174B; 604 class $7.00 SEC 32MB 168-pin DIMM KMM364E410BK-6; 604 class $5.00 Samsung 4MB 72-pin SIMM KMM5322000BV-6; for Quadra 840AV $6.00 Southland 32MB 72-pin SIMM (2) SGE 8X32T6 non-parity 60ns; in sealed anti-static bags in Southland container $20.00 Spectrum Engineering DT77 16MB 30-pin SIMM (4) 16MB modules for Macintosh II series $30.00 Spectrum Engineering DT77 16MB 30-pin SIMM (2) 16MB modules for Macintosh II series $18.00 Spectrum Engineering DT77 16MB 30-pin SIMM (1) 16MB modules for Macintosh II series $10.00 Spectrum DT220 4MB 30-pin SIMM (4) 4MB SIMM modules for Macintosh IIsi or IIc $30.00 Spectrum DT220 4MB 30-pin SIMM (2) 4MB SIMM modules for Macintosh IIsi or IIc $17.00 Spectrum DT220 4MB 30-pin SIMM (1) 4MB SIMM modules for Macintosh IIsi or IIc $9.00 TechWorks 4MB 30-pin SIMM (2) 4Mx8, 70ns; sealed in anti-static bags $15.00 TechWorks 16MB 72-pin SIMM 4x32-60 $6.00 Texas Instruments 4MB 72-pin SIMM (2) 1MX32 TM124BBK32U-70 $10.00 ZTECH 128MB PC-100 SDRAM KO-9013 KM44S16030CT-GL $5.00 Please contact me by e-mail to inquire. Thanks! Sellam From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 3 00:51:56 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 22:51:56 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: <893c999c-d819-3325-fb40-ab9cffa2cadd@gmail.com> References: <0M71wB-1jhavr2MEf-00wmIW@mrelay.perfora.net> <350d5c3a-7a0a-21ec-0a91-32375abe6c73@gmail.com> <893c999c-d819-3325-fb40-ab9cffa2cadd@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b828244-5e76-8017-5993-da419a7d71c4@sydex.com> On 2020-01-02 9:58 p.m., Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: >Well, Canada Post stopped delivering to individual >houses years ago. I assume that rural delivery still goes house-to-house. --Chuck From gerardcjat at free.fr Fri Jan 3 03:46:02 2020 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 10:46:02 +0100 Subject: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?) Message-ID: A guy, in Europ, sells a box of IBM magnetic cards, used on IBM "Compcarte" ( sorry, french "name" ) They seems in medium state, at least,? but I think these are pretty rare. So, if somebody is interested ..... https://www.ebay.fr/itm/gro%C3%9Frechner-wechseldatentr%C3%A4ger-magnetkarten/184107517064?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 From ed at groenenberg.net Fri Jan 3 03:59:12 2020 From: ed at groenenberg.net (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 10:59:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33462.83.128.128.49.1578045552.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> GerardCJAT via cctech wrote: > A guy, in Europ, sells a box of IBM magnetic cards, used on IBM > "Compcarte" ( sorry, french "name" ) > > They seems in medium state, at least,?? but I think these are pretty > rare. So, if somebody is interested ..... > > https://www.ebay.fr/itm/gro%C3%9Frechner-wechseldatentr%C3%A4ger-magnetkarten/184107517064?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 > > > The guy is in Germany and sells a few other IBM related items. He is also auctioning an DEC RK07 : https://www.ebay.de/itm/grosrechner-laufwerk/184010127536?hash=item2ad7dbb8b0:g:4DkAAOSwmK1dtI~8 Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta 😆 From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 07:17:35 2020 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 09:17:35 -0400 Subject: OT post delivery / Re: Ordering parts onesie twos In-Reply-To: References: <0M71wB-1jhavr2MEf-00wmIW@mrelay.perfora.net> <350d5c3a-7a0a-21ec-0a91-32375abe6c73@gmail.com> <893c999c-d819-3325-fb40-ab9cffa2cadd@gmail.com> Message-ID: <554695e0-b9ed-8857-182e-99290f49249d@gmail.com> On 2020-01-03 12:11 a.m., Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-Jan-02, at 6:11 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: >> On 2020-01-02 9:58 p.m., Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: >>> On 01/02/20 17:22, Ali wrote: >>>>> Well, Canada Post stopped delivering to individual >houses years ago. >>>> How does that work? >>> Community mailboxes that serve a neighbourhood. You need to trek to one to pick up your mail. (https://www.canadapost.ca/cpc/en/personal/receiving/manage-mail/community-mailbox.page) >>> >>> N. >>> >> A good part of the city where I live still has door to door delivery from Canada Post, but on the other hand the community where I grew up never did. Resistance because people whined about having to walk a block to get their mail, while in many small communities the residents never had door to door delivery and always picked up their mail at the box lobby at the local post office.? Even though these where small communities, the majority of the residents travel further to get their mail than the vast majority of people who get their mail from a community box, knowing this I have little sympathy for the people now whining about having to pick up their mail from a community box.? Yes Canada Post did stop door to door delivery in parts of my city but did back off for now. Paul. > > At-property delivery is still present in neighbourhoods whose development predates the change in delivery policy. The change, IIRC, was sometime in the late-70s. Neighbourhoods developed (subdivision/rezoning) after the policy change get community boxes, even if immediately adjacent to a neighbourhood with at-property. A new house built in an old (pre-change) neighbourhood will still get at-property. > > At least that's the general rule as I've observed it. Canada Post has tried to get rid of at-property delivery a few times and met with resistance. > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 07:22:18 2020 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 09:22:18 -0400 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: <6b828244-5e76-8017-5993-da419a7d71c4@sydex.com> References: <0M71wB-1jhavr2MEf-00wmIW@mrelay.perfora.net> <350d5c3a-7a0a-21ec-0a91-32375abe6c73@gmail.com> <893c999c-d819-3325-fb40-ab9cffa2cadd@gmail.com> <6b828244-5e76-8017-5993-da419a7d71c4@sydex.com> Message-ID: <00f42930-2a99-3dad-ecf6-d078091dbfe0@gmail.com> On 2020-01-03 2:51 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-01-02 9:58 p.m., Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > > >Well, Canada Post stopped delivering to individual >houses years ago. > > I assume that rural delivery still goes house-to-house. > > --Chuck > Rural delivery is done to mail boxes along the roads, which means the people have to travel from their house to said road to get their mail.? We lived on a farm for part of the time I was growing up and for us that was 3/4 of a mile, and that was not uncommon in the area, for some it was even further.? Quite different from walking a block, maybe, to a community box. Paul. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Jan 3 07:23:52 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 08:23:52 -0500 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: <00f42930-2a99-3dad-ecf6-d078091dbfe0@gmail.com> References: <0M71wB-1jhavr2MEf-00wmIW@mrelay.perfora.net> <350d5c3a-7a0a-21ec-0a91-32375abe6c73@gmail.com> <893c999c-d819-3325-fb40-ab9cffa2cadd@gmail.com> <6b828244-5e76-8017-5993-da419a7d71c4@sydex.com> <00f42930-2a99-3dad-ecf6-d078091dbfe0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1992ac9d-bf18-ad1b-18ca-d4e2ab9d7e52@alembic.crystel.com> Well, it sounds like Amazon is trying to fix this with there "lockers" everywhere. Expect prime shipments to only be to lockers soon, with the rest to follow. (gazing into my crystel ball...) On 1/3/2020 8:22 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > On 2020-01-03 2:51 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> ? On 2020-01-02 9:58 p.m., Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: >> >> ? >Well, Canada Post stopped delivering to individual >houses years ago. >> >> I assume that rural delivery still goes house-to-house. >> >> --Chuck >> > > Rural delivery is done to mail boxes along the roads, which means the > people have to travel from their house to said road to get their mail. > We lived on a farm for part of the time I was growing up and for us that > was 3/4 of a mile, and that was not uncommon in the area, for some it > was even further.? Quite different from walking a block, maybe, to a > community box. > > Paul. > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Fri Jan 3 05:51:43 2020 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 22:51:43 +1100 Subject: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20200103225143.011d2600@mail.optusnet.com.au> Huh, that's a coincidence. Going through a recent bequeathment to the Australian Computer Museum Society, I'd just yesterday opened a box with manuals, some cards, and other bits for the same system. See pic, with manual cover illustration of the system. It was IBM trying to produce a word processor and email, before the technology was really up to it. You typed onto paper, with backspacing and overtyping to get it right, then saved to the mag card. That could be read back and printed out, to get a clean copy. Then you could snail mail the mag card to someone with another machine. Or just post the printed letter I suppose, but how old fashioned! A lease document with the set shows that in 1981 the price was $5000 (AU). Or leased over 48 months, total rent of $6682. My job now is to find out what happened to the actual machine, since the contents list says it's present, but it isn't. Fun fact: according to the listing the modified selectric typewriter (heavy) and the magcard 82 processor (cabinet in the photo, supposedly about 50 Kg) are linked by a "non-plugged cable". Brilliant. Guy At 10:46 AM 3/01/2020 +0100, you wrote: >A guy, in Europ, sells a box of IBM magnetic cards, used on IBM >"Compcarte" ( sorry, french "name" ) > >They seems in medium state, at least,?? but I think these are pretty >rare. So, if somebody is interested ..... > >https://www.ebay.fr/itm/gro%C3%9Frechner-wechseldatentr%C3%A4ger-magnetkarten/184107517064?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 From guykd at optusnet.com.au Fri Jan 3 09:38:03 2020 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 02:38:03 +1100 Subject: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20200103225143.011d2600@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20200104023803.00e5d888@mail.optusnet.com.au> Bah, attached photos don't work. OK, the pic is here: http://everist.org/pics/misc/20200103_5346_IBM_mag_cards.jpg Guy At 10:51 PM 3/01/2020 +1100, you wrote: >Huh, that's a coincidence. Going through a recent bequeathment to the Australian Computer Museum Society, >I'd just yesterday opened a box with manuals, some cards, and other bits for the same system. >See pic, with manual cover illustration of the system. > >It was IBM trying to produce a word processor and email, before the technology was really up to it. >You typed onto paper, with backspacing and overtyping to get it right, then saved to the mag card. >That could be read back and printed out, to get a clean copy. Then you could snail mail the mag card >to someone with another machine. Or just post the printed letter I suppose, but how old fashioned! >A lease document with the set shows that in 1981 the price was $5000 (AU). Or leased over 48 months, >total rent of $6682. > >My job now is to find out what happened to the actual machine, since the contents list says it's >present, but it isn't. > >Fun fact: according to the listing the modified selectric typewriter (heavy) and the magcard 82 processor >(cabinet in the photo, supposedly about 50 Kg) are linked by a "non-plugged cable". Brilliant. > >Guy > > > >At 10:46 AM 3/01/2020 +0100, you wrote: >>A guy, in Europ, sells a box of IBM magnetic cards, used on IBM >>"Compcarte" ( sorry, french "name" ) >> >>They seems in medium state, at least,?? but I think these are pretty >>rare. So, if somebody is interested ..... >> >>https://www.ebay.fr/itm/gro%C3%9Frechner-wechseldatentr%C3%A4ger-magnetkarten/184107517064?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 3 10:41:56 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 08:41:56 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: <00f42930-2a99-3dad-ecf6-d078091dbfe0@gmail.com> References: <0M71wB-1jhavr2MEf-00wmIW@mrelay.perfora.net> <350d5c3a-7a0a-21ec-0a91-32375abe6c73@gmail.com> <893c999c-d819-3325-fb40-ab9cffa2cadd@gmail.com> <6b828244-5e76-8017-5993-da419a7d71c4@sydex.com> <00f42930-2a99-3dad-ecf6-d078091dbfe0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/3/20 5:22 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: ??? > > Rural delivery is done to mail boxes along the roads, which means the > people have to travel from their house to said road to get their mail.? > We lived on a farm for part of the time I was growing up and for us that > was 3/4 of a mile, and that was not uncommon in the area, for some it > was even further.? Quite different from walking a block, maybe, to a > community box. That's no different from where I live (US), though my mailbox is only about 250 ft. from my house. Packages are delivered to the front door. Not a big deal. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 3 10:46:55 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 08:46:55 -0800 Subject: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/3/20 1:46 AM, GerardCJAT via cctalk wrote: > A guy, in Europ, sells a box of IBM magnetic cards, used on IBM > "Compcarte" ( sorry, french "name" ) > The English-language name was "Composer". This was preceded by the very similar-looking MT/ST, which used a small magnetic tape cartridge in an external unit that looked very much like the card reader on the Composer. --Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jan 3 10:51:41 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 08:51:41 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: <00f42930-2a99-3dad-ecf6-d078091dbfe0@gmail.com> References: <0M71wB-1jhavr2MEf-00wmIW@mrelay.perfora.net> <350d5c3a-7a0a-21ec-0a91-32375abe6c73@gmail.com> <893c999c-d819-3325-fb40-ab9cffa2cadd@gmail.com> <6b828244-5e76-8017-5993-da419a7d71c4@sydex.com> <00f42930-2a99-3dad-ecf6-d078091dbfe0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20b093effdd3307136fc136469d36e1c409ef2c2.camel@shiresoft.com> On Fri, 2020-01-03 at 09:22 -0400, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-01-03 2:51 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-01-02 9:58 p.m., Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > >Well, Canada Post stopped delivering to individual >houses years > ago. > I assume that rural delivery still goes house-to-house. > --Chuck > Rural delivery is done to mail boxes along the roads, which means the > people have to travel from their house to said road to get their > mail. We lived on a farm for part of the time I was growing up and > for us that was 3/4 of a mile, and that was not uncommon in the area, > for some it was even further. Quite different from walking a block, > maybe, to a community box. > > > Yea, our bank of mailboxes is 2.5 miles from our house. We got intoheated arguments with the Post Office because we didn't go down and emptyour box every day. We finally got a P.O Box at a different (more convenient)Post Office. Now we have to deal with folks who don't understand that ourmailing address and physical address are different. :-/ It also infuriates me that *every* other shipper (UPS, FedEx) can deliverright to our door but USPS can't be bothered. -- TTFN - Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 3 12:15:36 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 10:15:36 -0800 Subject: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <551735a7-05c1-4296-d17e-1a50647f3c8c@bitsavers.org> On 1/3/20 1:46 AM, GerardCJAT via cctalk wrote: > I think these are pretty rare. They were sold by many office supply companies as consumables for the MCST I bought a box a while ago on eBay, don't see any right now though. From mbbrutman at brutman.com Fri Jan 3 14:33:56 2020 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 12:33:56 -0800 Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Exhibitors, volunteers and speakers needed! Message-ID: What: Vintage Computer Festival Pacific Northwest 2020 When: Saturday March 21st and Sunday March 22nd Where: Living Computers:Museum+Labs in Seattle, Washington. Web site: http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw Why ? So you can share your favorite old computers and projects in person with like-minded others for two full days at a great venue. This is one of the many ways we celebrate computing history while reaching out to a larger audience, and hopefully inspiring others. As of this writing we have seven exhibitors, three speakers, and a handful of volunteers signed up. We are looking for 20 to 25 exhibitors in total, another speaker or two, and a few more volunteers. While returning exhibits are welcome, we want to encourage first-timers to step up and try it out. (It is fun and rewarding!) If you know that you can bring an exhibit please look at http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw/exhibitor-registration and then fill in the registration form. (Potential volunteers and speakers - send me an email instead, as there is no form.) If you are ?on the fence? or just have questions please send me an email and I will get things sorted out for you. The registration deadline is January 31st but if you know you can commit now it will make project planning easier. A description of the event can be found at http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw . General information for exhibitors including links to pictures from last year, a link to the registration form, and a FAQ can be found at http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw/exhibitor-registration . Feel free to email me with questions. Thanks, Mike mbbrutman at brutman.com or michael at vcfed.org PS: Not exhibiting at the event but interested in unloading some tonnage? We're doing a consignment area again and that is open to everybody. Now is a good time to start cleaning and testing things that you might want to sell. You bring your treasures and we?ll bring the buyers. Check http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw/consignment/ for details. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 14:50:26 2020 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 16:50:26 -0400 Subject: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20200103225143.011d2600@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20200103225143.011d2600@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <2b01e3a3-62dd-e6e5-93f2-2ea8de903683@gmail.com> The magcard selectric was capable of a lot of basic word processing functions as could the MT/ST before it.? One function it was really useful for was creating personalized form letters. The body of the letter could be stored and personalizations filled in as it printed.? The MT/ST and magcard also had a model with a composer version of the selectric connected.? The composer version had an escapement mechanism that could do proportional spacing, this mechanism was complicated and from what OP technician told me tricky to adjust, and it didn't help that customer using composers where very picky about the print quality as composers where often use to prepare copy for printing.? I have also seen selectric mechanisms that used a lead screw to move the print head which would be an easier way to implement proportional spacing. Watching a video of an electronic composer typing suggests it may have used this mechanism as the carriage motion looks smoother that what you get with an escapement rack. ?? There was also a version of magcard machine that had a IBM Executive type bar typewriter attached, the Executive also did proportional spacing. There was also a selectric called the "Memory Typewriter" that could store documents on a wide loop of tape the was inside a slightly enlarged selectic.? The last version of the magcard machines where equipped with a daisy wheel printer in place of a selectric. Paul. On 2020-01-03 7:51 a.m., Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > Huh, that's a coincidence. Going through a recent bequeathment to the Australian Computer Museum Society, > I'd just yesterday opened a box with manuals, some cards, and other bits for the same system. > See pic, with manual cover illustration of the system. > > It was IBM trying to produce a word processor and email, before the technology was really up to it. > You typed onto paper, with backspacing and overtyping to get it right, then saved to the mag card. > That could be read back and printed out, to get a clean copy. Then you could snail mail the mag card > to someone with another machine. Or just post the printed letter I suppose, but how old fashioned! > A lease document with the set shows that in 1981 the price was $5000 (AU). Or leased over 48 months, > total rent of $6682. > > My job now is to find out what happened to the actual machine, since the contents list says it's > present, but it isn't. > > Fun fact: according to the listing the modified selectric typewriter (heavy) and the magcard 82 processor > (cabinet in the photo, supposedly about 50 Kg) are linked by a "non-plugged cable". Brilliant. > > Guy > > > > At 10:46 AM 3/01/2020 +0100, you wrote: >> A guy, in Europ, sells a box of IBM magnetic cards, used on IBM >> "Compcarte" ( sorry, french "name" ) >> >> They seems in medium state, at least,?? but I think these are pretty >> rare. So, if somebody is interested ..... >> >> https://www.ebay.fr/itm/gro%C3%9Frechner-wechseldatentr%C3%A4ger-magnetkarten/184107517064?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 14:54:54 2020 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 16:54:54 -0400 Subject: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01e05012-02f5-26e6-ef83-7df41f906c3b@gmail.com> On 2020-01-03 12:46 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/3/20 1:46 AM, GerardCJAT via cctalk wrote: >> A guy, in Europ, sells a box of IBM magnetic cards, used on IBM >> "Compcarte" ( sorry, french "name" ) >> > The English-language name was "Composer". This was preceded by the very > similar-looking MT/ST, which used a small magnetic tape cartridge in an > external unit that looked very much like the card reader on the Composer. > > --Chuck > The composer was a special version of selectric that did proportional spacing, often used for producing copy for printing. The original composer was all mechanical including the variable spacing later ones where electronic. Paul. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 3 15:27:01 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 13:27:01 -0800 Subject: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?) In-Reply-To: <2b01e3a3-62dd-e6e5-93f2-2ea8de903683@gmail.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20200103225143.011d2600@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2b01e3a3-62dd-e6e5-93f2-2ea8de903683@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/3/20 12:50 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > The magcard selectric was capable of a lot of basic word processing > functions as could the MT/ST before it.? One function it was really > useful for was creating personalized form letters. The body of the > letter could be stored and personalizations filled in as it printed.? > The MT/ST and magcard also had a model with a composer version of the > selectric connected.? The composer version had an escapement mechanism > that could do proportional spacing, this mechanism was complicated and > from what OP technician told me tricky to adjust, and it didn't help > that customer using composers where very picky about the print quality > as composers where often use to prepare copy for printing.? I have also > seen selectric mechanisms that used a lead screw to move the print head > which would be an easier way to implement proportional spacing. Watching > a video of an electronic composer typing suggests it may have used this > mechanism as the carriage motion looks smoother that what you get with > an escapement rack. ?? There was also a version of magcard machine that > had a IBM Executive type bar typewriter attached, the Executive also did > proportional spacing. There was also a selectric called the "Memory > Typewriter" that could store documents on a wide loop of tape the was > inside a slightly enlarged selectic.? The last version of the magcard > machines where equipped with a daisy wheel printer in place of a selectric. I used a Model B Executive for a few years as my office typewriter. Superb text quality; good enough for publication. They were available in several type styles and sizes. Can easily be distinguished by the split space bar. There also was a version of the tape station for the MT/ST that could be used as a S/370 peripheral. Probably not very common. --Chuck From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 15:35:27 2020 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 17:35:27 -0400 Subject: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20200103225143.011d2600@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2b01e3a3-62dd-e6e5-93f2-2ea8de903683@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6053671d-83e6-7667-3bb4-cf36f12198d7@gmail.com> > I used a Model B Executive for a few years as my office typewriter. > Superb text quality; good enough for publication. They were available > in several type styles and sizes. Can easily be distinguished by the > split space bar. > > There also was a version of the tape station for the MT/ST that could be > used as a S/370 peripheral. Probably not very common. > > --Chuck > Probably the oddest machine I ever saw with a typewriter on it was a machine with a card reader and I think a model A? connected to it and it would type out what was punched into the cards.?? I was told there was a companion machine that would punch cards with what you typed on the typewriter.? The flexowriter have a common ancestor to the IBM typebar electrics, IBM sold what became flexowriter because of antitrust concerns. Paul. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 15:39:59 2020 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 16:39:59 -0500 Subject: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?) References: <551735a7-05c1-4296-d17e-1a50647f3c8c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <269B03254CFB436CB2AA01BE213A037E@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow via cctalk" To: Sent: Friday, January 03, 2020 1:15 PM Subject: Re: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?) > > > On 1/3/20 1:46 AM, GerardCJAT via cctalk wrote: >> I think these are pretty rare. > > They were sold by many office supply companies as consumables for the MCST > I bought a box a while ago on eBay, don't see any right now though. > --------------------------- I've got a couple of the drives for those cards somewhere in case someone needs/wants one; rollers to feed the card in and out and a solenoid ratchet to move the head across track-to-track. Wonder if you could build an 80-column card reader out of one... ;-) Only have one card though ;-) m From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 15:41:36 2020 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 16:41:36 -0500 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie References: <0M71wB-1jhavr2MEf-00wmIW@mrelay.perfora.net> <350d5c3a-7a0a-21ec-0a91-32375abe6c73@gmail.com> <893c999c-d819-3325-fb40-ab9cffa2cadd@gmail.com> <6b828244-5e76-8017-5993-da419a7d71c4@sydex.com> <00f42930-2a99-3dad-ecf6-d078091dbfe0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <71D6787A4FF047E1A71A2F742D23A6A8@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" To: "Paul Berger via cctalk" Sent: Friday, January 03, 2020 11:41 AM Subject: Re: Ordering parts onesie twosie > On 1/3/20 5:22 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > >> >> Rural delivery is done to mail boxes along the roads, which means the >> people have to travel from their house to said road to get their mail. >> We lived on a farm for part of the time I was growing up and for us that >> was 3/4 of a mile, and that was not uncommon in the area, for some it >> was even further. Quite different from walking a block, maybe, to a >> community box. > > That's no different from where I live (US), though my mailbox is only > about 250 ft. from my house. Packages are delivered to the front door. > > Not a big deal. > > --Chuck > ----------------------------------------- Canada Post has a little-publicised service called "FlexDelivery", very useful for foiling 'Porch Pirates' who follow the trucks and steal those packages left at your front door. Regardless of whether you have your mail delivered to your door or a community mailbox you can register for a special free 'virtual' post box address where they will email you when a *parcel* arrives and hold it for two weeks for you to pick up. m From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jan 3 17:34:23 2020 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 18:34:23 -0500 Subject: Corvus Concept Message-ID: <8E317C3F-9CCD-4ECA-8BEF-BED8B9AF6EBA@atarimuseum.com> Hi everyone, Happy New Years... Got into a convo with a local friend regarding Concepts. I sold mine nearly 15 years ago to Al Kossow and regretted it ever since. (Nothing to do with Al, he?s a great guy... just regret selling it) Anyone on the list have one that they might consider selling/trading for? Thanks, Curt From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 3 18:13:55 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 16:13:55 -0800 Subject: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?) In-Reply-To: <269B03254CFB436CB2AA01BE213A037E@310e2> References: <551735a7-05c1-4296-d17e-1a50647f3c8c@bitsavers.org> <269B03254CFB436CB2AA01BE213A037E@310e2> Message-ID: <3e9bd825-8aff-3f8a-1cfc-3660944079ed@bitsavers.org> On 1/3/20 1:39 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > I've got a couple of the drives for those cards somewhere in case someone needs/wants one; rollers to feed the card in and out and a solenoid ratchet to move the head across track-to-track. Wonder if you could build an 80-column card reader out of one... ;-) > Is the on-card format documented anywhere? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 3 18:15:28 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 16:15:28 -0800 Subject: Corvus Concept In-Reply-To: <8E317C3F-9CCD-4ECA-8BEF-BED8B9AF6EBA@atarimuseum.com> References: <8E317C3F-9CCD-4ECA-8BEF-BED8B9AF6EBA@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 1/3/20 3:34 PM, Curt Vendel via cctalk wrote: > Anyone on the list have one that they might consider selling/trading for? I have a couple now, make me an offer. I tried emailing directly, but the atarimuseum.com adr bounced. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 3 21:07:25 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 19:07:25 -0800 Subject: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?) In-Reply-To: <3e9bd825-8aff-3f8a-1cfc-3660944079ed@bitsavers.org> References: <551735a7-05c1-4296-d17e-1a50647f3c8c@bitsavers.org> <269B03254CFB436CB2AA01BE213A037E@310e2> <3e9bd825-8aff-3f8a-1cfc-3660944079ed@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 1/3/20 4:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/3/20 1:39 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > >> I've got a couple of the drives for those cards somewhere in case someone needs/wants one; rollers to feed the card in and out and a solenoid ratchet to move the head across track-to-track. Wonder if you could build an 80-column card reader out of one... ;-) >> > > Is the on-card format documented anywhere? > > Turns out there is a bit of info in the office system 6 CE manual I just got They have 50 tracks and have a dummy character to align the card when loaded From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 3 21:11:10 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 19:11:10 -0800 Subject: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?) In-Reply-To: References: <551735a7-05c1-4296-d17e-1a50647f3c8c@bitsavers.org> <269B03254CFB436CB2AA01BE213A037E@310e2> <3e9bd825-8aff-3f8a-1cfc-3660944079ed@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0c529af5-26c8-d292-c52b-11404aa388d4@bitsavers.org> On 1/3/20 7:07 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/3/20 4:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 1/3/20 1:39 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> >>> I've got a couple of the drives for those cards somewhere in case someone needs/wants one; rollers to feed the card in and out and a solenoid ratchet to move the head across track-to-track. Wonder if you could build an 80-column card reader out of one... ;-) >>> >> >> Is the on-card format documented anywhere? >> >> > > Turns out there is a bit of info in the office system 6 CE manual I just got > They have 50 tracks and have a dummy character to align the card when loaded > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/5520/GC23-0702-3_IBM_5520_Administrative_System_Introduction_Nov81.pdf page 3-17 5321 mag card unit 50 tracks, 100 characters / track From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri Jan 3 22:38:56 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 20:38:56 -0800 Subject: IBM RS/6000 Model 320 (7012-320) SCSI cabling Message-ID: <0CCCFC7C-D4CF-41E0-98CE-B7522CB3B879@eschatologist.net> Does anyone have a spare internal or external SCSI cable for the IBM RS/6000 Model 320 with the IBM MCA SCSI-1 card (3-1)? For those who don?t know/remember, this card uses a pair of edge connectors (like MFM/ESDI) rather than an IDC connector to connect to its internal two-drop cable, and its external connector is a **sixty-pin** higher-density Centronics connector. I can make an IDC cable adapter pretty easily but if anyone knows where to acquire working original cables, that?d be preferable to my relative lack of mechanical skill. -- Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri Jan 3 22:39:04 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 20:39:04 -0800 Subject: IBM RS/6000 Model 320 (7012-320) and AIX 3.2.5 Message-ID: <68CEC84C-69A8-4C0C-83E3-E22F44F0A77C@eschatologist.net> I have an IBM RS/6000 POWERstation 320 (original 7012-320) with plenty of RAM and SCSI storage. I?d like to install AIX 3.2.5 on it. Here?s the hardware setup: - POWERstation 320 - 8MB RAM currently, soon to be 72MB - Serial port adapter so I can use a terminal - Correct IBM keyboard (not working at the moment, hence the terminal) - Correct IBM mouse - MCA Color Display Adapter (1-1) - MCA Ethernet Adapter (2-1) - MCA SCSI-1 Adapter (4-1) - AIX 3.2.0 floppy images, including boot floppy images - AIX 3.2.5 CD-ROM images - External SCSI DAT (DDS-1) and CD-ROM drives The CD images appear to be ISO-9660 format, containing piles of ?AIX backup/restore format file? archives; the floppy images are also identified as being that format (no filesystems, just archive content). I?ve seen some stuff online that talks about installing from tape using DAT, so it seems like in theory I should be able to just push the CD contents to a tape and go. Can I use the 3.2.0 boot floppy images with a couple of DDS-1 tapes containing the files from the 3.2.5 CDs to directly install AIX 3.2.5? In what order should the files be put on the tapes? Or do I really need to do a complete install of 3.2.0 first? Another important question: Will I need some sort of key to use the included AIXwindows and xlc, or should this stuff just work? Finally, is there a complete set of post-release patches for AIX 3.2.5 online somewhere? I know 3.2.5 itself was primarily a patch roll-up release, I assume that with Y2K remediation and other bug fixes in the mid- and late-2000s there were a few additional patches released over time. -- Chris From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 4 00:31:34 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 22:31:34 -0800 Subject: IBM RS/6000 Model 320 (7012-320) SCSI cabling In-Reply-To: <0CCCFC7C-D4CF-41E0-98CE-B7522CB3B879@eschatologist.net> References: <0CCCFC7C-D4CF-41E0-98CE-B7522CB3B879@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:39 PM Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone have a spare internal or external SCSI cable for the IBM RS/6000 Model 320 with the IBM MCA SCSI-1 card (3-1)? For those who don?t know/remember, this card uses a pair of edge connectors (like MFM/ESDI) rather than an IDC connector to connect to its internal two-drop cable, and its external connector is a **sixty-pin** higher-density Centronics connector. > I had (2x) 7012-320 20MHz and (1x) 7012-320H 25MHz desktop systems over 10 years ago that I couldn't give away locally. I ended up taking them to a local PC recycler. I don't have any internal SCSI cables left from those systems. I do still have a 70F9733 5-foot external SCSI cable that has the weird 60-pin connector on the system end, and the weird pass-thru normal 50-pin connector on the device end. I haven't had any use for that 70F9733 SCSI cable since I got rid of those systems. The device end is weird because it could plug into the deep recessed connector on the external SCSI tape or CD-ROM drive, which only had a single connector, and then either a terminator or another cable could be chained onto the second pass-thru connector on the cable device end plug. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 4 00:58:22 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 22:58:22 -0800 Subject: IBM RS/6000 Model 320 (7012-320) and AIX 3.2.5 In-Reply-To: <68CEC84C-69A8-4C0C-83E3-E22F44F0A77C@eschatologist.net> References: <68CEC84C-69A8-4C0C-83E3-E22F44F0A77C@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:39 PM Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > > I have an IBM RS/6000 POWERstation 320 (original 7012-320) with plenty of RAM and SCSI storage. I?d like to install AIX 3.2.5 on it. > > The CD images appear to be ISO-9660 format, containing piles of ?AIX backup/restore format file? archives; the floppy images are also identified as being that format (no filesystems, just archive content). I?ve seen some stuff online that talks about installing from tape using DAT, so it seems like in theory I should be able to just push the CD contents to a tape and go. > > Can I use the 3.2.0 boot floppy images with a couple of DDS-1 tapes containing the files from the 3.2.5 CDs to directly install AIX 3.2.5? In what order should the files be put on the tapes? Or do I really need to do a complete install of 3.2.0 first? > > Another important question: Will I need some sort of key to use the included AIXwindows and xlc, or should this stuff just work? > > Finally, is there a complete set of post-release patches for AIX 3.2.5 online somewhere? I know 3.2.5 itself was primarily a patch roll-up release, I assume that with Y2K remediation and other bug fixes in the mid- and late-2000s there were a few additional patches released over time. > When I had 7012-320 systems over 10 years ago I installed AIX 3.2.5 from a set of 6 DC6150 QIC tape images that I got from R. Stricklin ( http://www.typewritten.org/Software/ ). I don't remember needing to use any boot floppies. As far as I can remember I just booted directly from the first AIX 3.2.5 installation tape in an external QIC drive. I vaguely remember getting a bunch of update patches for AIX 3.2.5. Not sure whether I ever bothered trying to install them. I also don't remember if I got those patches directly from R. Stricklin, or if he pointed me to some archive site, maybe somewhere at MIT, where I downloaded them at the time. I had some form of X11 running at the time without any issues that I can remember to get it going. Don't remember if that was the native AIXwindows. Pretty sure I got to experience everyone's favorite the SMIT "Running Man". All too long ago now for systems that I never really used much between the time I collected them and the time I recycled them. From treen0 at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 21:39:24 2020 From: treen0 at gmail.com (Jack Blake) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 22:39:24 -0500 Subject: Odd vintage computer sellers Message-ID: > I've been after a manual for months. There is one up on eBay for $520, > it's been there for months.? A few weeks ago the seller sent out an > offer to anyone watching, with an offer of $399, I sent a counter > offer of $99.? I just bought a copy that turned up yesterday for $20. > Zane I see the same thing all the time on Amazon and various other used booksellers, it's a malfunction of using an automated pricing system.? My uncle has spent years importing college textbooks and explained it to me about fifteen years ago, the system is fairly simplistic and sets prices automatically based on other seller's prices.? The sellers have no idea what anything is worth, so they trust the automated system rather than the buyer.? One person comes in and prices an old manual at some randomized, arbitrary amount in the hundreds of dollars (or a computer in the thousands), and the entire market adjusts to selling at that price without any human interaction.? The systems then ignore the lowball prices set by sellers who run smaller businesses and need to move inventory or sellers who understand the actual value of the item. This leads to situations where an old paperback about an obsolete programming language gets priced at $455 and a half dozen other sellers under-cut it by pennies. If you want to see how this same sort of thing affects various other markets, look into high speed trading firms. From athornton at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 23:12:21 2020 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 22:12:21 -0700 Subject: Some new text adventure stuff for 2.11BSD Message-ID: I'm having a party on Saturday January 11 (and if any of you are in Tucson, or want to come to Tucson for it, you're invited; email me for the address and time). Although the party is Elvis-themed, it's really about boardgaming and classic videogaming. So I kind of wanted to put a general-purpose Z-machine interpreter on my PiDP-11, so that people could play Infocom (and community) games on a real terminal. Turns out there wasn't really one, so I ported the venerable ZIP (which I have renamed "zterp" for obvious reasons) to 2.11BSD on the PDP-11, and I also wrote a little utility I call "tmenu" to take a directory (and an optional command applying to files in the directory) and make a numbered menu, so that my guests who are not familiar with Actual Bourne Shell can play games too. These things are at: https://github.com/athornton/pdp11-zterp and https://github.com/athornton/pdp11-tmenu/ Both are K&R C, and compile with the 2.11BSD system C compiler. My biggest disappointment is that the memory map of Trinity, my favorite Infocom game, is weird and even though it's only a V5 game, I can't allocate enough memory to start it. Other than that, V5 and below seem to work mostly fine; V8 is in theory supported but no game that I've tried has little enough low memory that I can malloc() it using C on 2.11BSD. Adam From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sat Jan 4 04:32:21 2020 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 11:32:21 +0100 Subject: Odd vintage computer sellers In-Reply-To: <202001021936.002JaAsT24969284@floodgap.com> References: <202001021936.002JaAsT24969284@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <2683b1635a24ae8b09b273b78c7c463b8019f271.camel@agj.net> tor 2020-01-02 klockan 11:36 -0800 skrev Cameron Kaiser via cctalk: > > > > It's really rather ludicrous, given how even the IDT Solbournes > really only > run OS/MP. My affection for them is largely nostalgia; as SPARC > systems they > are quite finicky and the later SPARCstations surpassed even the > S4100 in > performance. It's really the S3000 that's the gem because of that > wacky > plasma display. > Solbourne positioned the later multi-processor MP systems against the Ultra 1 and Ultra 2 as long as the software mix gained from multiprocessing were they a potent method of getting more CPU especially if your app sw was dependent on SunOS 4. When Solaris 2.5 came out or more properly when SunOS 5 with its mp support became stable enough and more vendors ported their software to SunOS 5 solbourne lost their edge against Sun. From bqt at softjar.se Sat Jan 4 03:59:44 2020 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 10:59:44 +0100 Subject: [PiDP-11] Some new text adventure stuff for 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <092a1ce7-8719-8282-0363-f3da62ea02b7@softjar.se> Interesting. Trinity works fine under ZEMU. So ZIP must be rather a hog... V8 games that I've played under ZEMU: BALLERINA DREAMHOLDER HEROINE VIOLET Johnny On 2020-01-04 06:12, Adam Thornton wrote: > I'm having a party on Saturday January 11 (and if any of you are in > Tucson, or want to come to Tucson for it, you're invited; email me for > the address and time). > > Although the party is Elvis-themed, it's really about boardgaming and > classic videogaming. > > So I kind of wanted to put a general-purpose Z-machine interpreter on my > PiDP-11, so that people could play Infocom (and community) games on a > real terminal. > > Turns out there wasn't really one, so I ported the venerable ZIP (which > I have renamed "zterp" for obvious reasons) to 2.11BSD on the PDP-11, > and I also wrote a little utility I call "tmenu" to take a directory > (and an optional command applying to files in the directory) and make a > numbered menu, so that my guests who are not familiar with Actual Bourne > Shell can play games too. > > These things are at: > > https://github.com/athornton/pdp11-zterp > > and > > https://github.com/athornton/pdp11-tmenu/ > > Both are K&R C, and compile with the 2.11BSD system C compiler. > > My biggest disappointment is that the memory map of Trinity, my favorite > Infocom game, is weird and even though it's only a V5 game, I can't > allocate enough memory to start it.? Other than that, V5 and below seem > to work mostly fine; V8 is in theory supported but no game that I've > tried has little enough low memory that I can malloc() it using C on > 2.11BSD. > > Adam > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "[PiDP-11]" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to pidp-11+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com > . > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAP2nic3C7OW5OKPB_a2n9jOYDA7476MDRjgxKVyW0DkMKf6OsA%40mail.gmail.com > . -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Jan 4 07:57:40 2020 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 08:57:40 -0500 Subject: DEC flat cables Message-ID: <20200104135739.GA19842@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Has anyone found a good method for repairing the DEC flat cables? The ones with flat wires with plastic laminated to each side. The glue holding the plastic on fails and you end up with two sheets of plastic and loose wires. I had some success with contact cement but it only glues the plastic to the flat wires since it doesn't have any body. I tried one of the rubbery adhesives but it wouldn't set. I assume the plastic prevented evaporation of the solvent. I assume the air cure products would have the same issue. I assume two part or UV cure products if UV makes it through the plastic might work better since they come thick enough to fill between the wires. I've never used any of these to know if they may be a better choice. Desirable would be reasonably quick set. From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jan 4 09:24:54 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 09:24:54 -0600 Subject: Odd vintage computer sellers In-Reply-To: <2683b1635a24ae8b09b273b78c7c463b8019f271.camel@agj.net> References: <202001021936.002JaAsT24969284@floodgap.com> <2683b1635a24ae8b09b273b78c7c463b8019f271.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 4, 2020, 4:32 AM Stefan Skoglund via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > tor 2020-01-02 klockan 11:36 -0800 skrev Cameron Kaiser via cctalk: > > > > > > > It's really rather ludicrous, given how even the IDT Solbournes > > really only > > run OS/MP. My affection for them is largely nostalgia; as SPARC > > systems they > > are quite finicky and the later SPARCstations surpassed even the > > S4100 in > > performance. It's really the S3000 that's the gem because of that > > wacky > > plasma display. > > > > Solbourne positioned the later multi-processor MP systems against > the Ultra 1 and Ultra 2 as long as the software mix gained from > multiprocessing were they a potent method of getting more CPU > especially if your app sw was dependent on SunOS 4. > > When Solaris 2.5 came out or more properly when SunOS 5 with its > mp support became stable enough and more vendors ported their > software to SunOS 5 solbourne lost their edge against Sun. > Solbourne never had a working SunOS 5 port. We had Solaris 2.0 alpha and beta CDs in house, but never really has Solaris going. By that time, sales were too low to sustain a porting effort. IIRC, the first big round of layoffs was before Solaris 2.0 was released, though they fumbled on a bit on support contracts for a decade before dropping them all in 1999 because the y2k bugs were too big an effort to fix. Warner > From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Jan 4 13:59:35 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 11:59:35 -0800 Subject: Odd vintage computer sellers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <370DB9BC-F9E3-45EF-AD67-7AE68DA6FD94@avanthar.com> > On Jan 3, 2020, at 7:39 PM, Jack Blake via cctalk wrote: > >> I've been after a manual for months. There is one up on eBay for $520, it's been there for months. A few weeks ago the seller sent out an offer to anyone watching, with an offer of $399, I sent a counter offer of $99. I just bought a copy that turned up yesterday for $20. >> Zane > > I see the same thing all the time on Amazon and various other used booksellers, it's a malfunction of using an automated pricing system. My uncle has spent years importing college textbooks and explained it to me about fifteen years ago, the system is fairly simplistic and sets prices automatically based on other seller's prices. The sellers have no idea what anything is worth, so they trust the automated system rather than the buyer. One person comes in and prices an old manual at some randomized, arbitrary amount in the hundreds of dollars (or a computer in the thousands), and the entire market adjusts to selling at that price without any human interaction. The systems then ignore the lowball prices set by sellers who run smaller businesses and need to move inventory or sellers who understand the actual value of the item. > > This leads to situations where an old paperback about an obsolete programming language gets priced at $455 and a half dozen other sellers under-cut it by pennies. > > If you want to see how this same sort of thing affects various other markets, look into high speed trading firms. I frequently buy old Photography books. That?s where things can get seriously out of whack, it isn?t uncommon to see books going for over $100. Amazon and ABE Books definitely are at the root of a lot of the pricing lunacy. It?s an interesting observation on automated pricing, I?d not considered that. Another part of the problem is the wider your potential customer base, the more likely you are to find someone willing to pay crazy prices. There is one book I want, at one point it was at $1000, sadly I missed it when it was reprinted a few years ago. It?s actually dropped to the point where copies are in the $85-500 range. So over time, some prices do become more realistic, and I?ll likely pick up a copy soon. Zane From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sat Jan 4 14:52:44 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 12:52:44 -0800 Subject: IBM RS/6000 Model 320 (7012-320) SCSI cabling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2020, at 10:31 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > ?I don't have any internal SCSI cables left from those systems. I do > still have a 70F9733 5-foot external SCSI cable that has the weird > 60-pin connector on the system end, and the weird pass-thru normal > 50-pin connector on the device end. I haven't had any use for that > 70F9733 SCSI cable since I got rid of those systems. > > The device end is weird because it could plug into the deep recessed > connector on the external SCSI tape or CD-ROM drive, which only had a > single connector, and then either a terminator or another cable could > be chained onto the second pass-thru connector on the cable device end > plug. That sounds like exactly what I need! Would you be willing to part with it? For how much? :) ? Chris (in Campbell, CA, USA) From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sat Jan 4 14:56:51 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 12:56:51 -0800 Subject: Sperry SP-425-08 Display - Datasheet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C576168-5336-4221-B070-F69B10A3D546@shaw.ca> On 2020-Jan-01, at 6:14 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > I'd love to see examples of driving circuitry if it's not too much trouble. Remarkable that Tom found someone with spec sheets for the same type. Two examples of in-use are here (see the linked PDFs under tech data): http://madrona.ca/e/eec/calcs/SanyoICC83.html (display construction looks similar to the type you have) http://madrona.ca/e/eec/calcs/CommodoreUS10.html (Beckman Panaplex II display) You'll have to wrap your head around the various voltages and non-standard ground-references, to look instead at the actual potential differences. In one of them the 'high-side' is the anodes, while in the other the 'high-side' is the cathodes (high-side being whichever is at high potential difference from the logic). In either case, the high-side has to be voltage-isolated from the logic and the switching level shifted across that potential difference. In both cases here, that's accomplished via capacitors. (It was sometimes done with pulse transformers. Today, opto-isolators would be an option). > On 1/1/20 4:42 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: >> I snagged one of these Nixie-like displays (from a calculator I assume) and /pedant Please don't call them Nixie-like. Yes, they have a gas-discharge glow like Nixies, but Nixies are a very specific thing and very distinct from segmented displays. 10-15 years ago when nixies started becoming retro-cool, ebay listings for vacuum-flourescent displays started started referring to those as nixies. A little history: Nixies were popular in the 60s for test equipment and the early desktop calculators. 7-segment displays started to take off in the early-70s, and nixies came to be passe/old-fashioned. For the first few years the segmented market was dominated by 3 types: vacuum-flourescent, gas-discharge, and LED. All 3 of these went through stages from single-digit modules and then multi-digit modules. Lesser players were incandescent (Numitrons, Minitrons) and electro-fluorescent. LCDs came in starting in the mid-70s. GD was eventually wiped out of the market due to the HV requirement and driver expense. /tnadep On 2020-Jan-01, at 2:55 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > Not exactly it, but may be helpful: http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/Sperry_01.pdf These are the 'other series' of Sperry GD displays I was alluding to. They are like the Beckman Panaplex II displays in that the anode is a transparent conductive coating sputtered onto the inside surface of the viewing glass, in contrast to the type you have in which the anode appears to be a metal electrode in-plane around the segment cathodes. They (the 'other series') also bring out all the electrodes individually so they can be used in direct drive or multiplexed. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 4 11:54:37 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 12:54:37 -0500 Subject: Some new text adventure stuff for 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 12:12 AM Adam Thornton via cctech wrote: > I'm having a party on Saturday January 11 (and if any of you are in Tucson... I'm a bit far off but it sounds cool. > So I kind of wanted to put a general-purpose Z-machine interpreter on my > PiDP-11, so that people could play Infocom (and community) games on a real > terminal. Fun! > Turns out there wasn't really one, so I ported the venerable ZIP > https://github.com/athornton/pdp11-zterp > https://github.com/athornton/pdp11-tmenu/ Thanks for this. > My biggest disappointment is that the memory map of Trinity, my favorite > Infocom game, is weird and even though it's only a V5 game, I can't > allocate enough memory to start it. Is this just a 64K segment problem? Perhaps there needs to be some examination and optimization of the impure and pure storage and caching design? One can play larger games with 128K of total RAM on microcomputers, but most of those engines are written in assembler not C so the engine is tightly coupled to the processor architecture. -ethan From athornton at gmail.com Sat Jan 4 12:19:26 2020 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 11:19:26 -0700 Subject: Some new text adventure stuff for 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So, it's _mostly_ a 64K problem. All z-machine games have, in the file header, a "high memory" address above which it's safe to page data in and out as needed, because it's all read-only. Trinity's header claims what smells like an implausibly high value for a z4 game to me: 0xf771. There's no way it needs _that_ close to the 64K limit for writable store. Its "restart address" is 0x9310, though, which is also quite large, so maybe it does do a lot more with RAM than most z-machine games? The pure/impure and caching system is actually quite simple. Everything below the "high memory" mark stays in RAM, everything above is divided into 512-byte pages which are paged in and out of the disk file as necessary...so you need enough to cover dynamic memory, plus at least one page, plus whatever your program requires. Cache replacement is simple LRU. This works quite well in practice. I'm already running with split I/D, which did help quite a lot, but not enough to let me run something that claims to need all but 2K of the potentially-writeable memory map. ZEMU is much, MUCH tighter than ZIP, but of course it's in MACRO-11 assembly, not C-compiled-with-the-2.11BSD-C-Compiler, which isn't all that tight a compiler by modern standards, and ZIP wasn't written to be optimized for memory consumption anyway. I tried compiling ZEMU with m11 on 2.11BSD, but there are zillions of errors, and I certainly won't have time to figure it out (and write an OS-dependent piece) by next Saturday. However, I may put ZEMU and a bunch of games on the RSX-11 system on the PiDP-11 instead. But first I gotta replace the spinner in my MAME cabinet. Adam On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 10:54 AM Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 12:12 AM Adam Thornton via cctech > wrote: > > I'm having a party on Saturday January 11 (and if any of you are in > Tucson... > > I'm a bit far off but it sounds cool. > > > So I kind of wanted to put a general-purpose Z-machine interpreter on my > > PiDP-11, so that people could play Infocom (and community) games on a > real > > terminal. > > Fun! > > > Turns out there wasn't really one, so I ported the venerable ZIP > > https://github.com/athornton/pdp11-zterp > > https://github.com/athornton/pdp11-tmenu/ > > Thanks for this. > > > My biggest disappointment is that the memory map of Trinity, my favorite > > Infocom game, is weird and even though it's only a V5 game, I can't > > allocate enough memory to start it. > > Is this just a 64K segment problem? Perhaps there needs to be some > examination and optimization of the impure and pure storage and > caching design? > > One can play larger games with 128K of total RAM on microcomputers, > but most of those engines are written in assembler not C so the engine > is tightly coupled to the processor architecture. > > -ethan > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Jan 4 12:19:52 2020 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 13:19:52 -0500 Subject: DEC flat cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 08:57:40 -0500 > From: David Gesswein > Subject: DEC flat cables > > Has anyone found a good method for repairing the DEC flat cables? > The ones with flat wires with plastic laminated to each side. The glue > holding the plastic on fails and you end up with two sheets of plastic and > loose wires. > For low speed signals. I just replaced the flexprint with modern ribbon cable. Seems to work just fine. -- Michael Thompson From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 4 21:32:25 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 21:32:25 -0600 Subject: DEC flat cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5E1158C9.8070101@pico-systems.com> On 01/04/2020 12:19 PM, Michael Thompson via cctalk wrote: >> Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 08:57:40 -0500 >> From: David Gesswein >> Subject: DEC flat cables >> >> Has anyone found a good method for repairing the DEC flat cables? >> The ones with flat wires with plastic laminated to each side. The glue >> holding the plastic on fails and you end up with two sheets of plastic and >> loose wires. >> > For low speed signals. I just replaced the flexprint with modern ribbon > cable. Seems to work just fine. And, DEC, in fact, went over to almost all plain 0.050" ribbon cables in VAX systems with Unibus cabinets. Of course, the paddle boards are all different for that. Jon From mark.tapley at swri.org Sat Jan 4 22:04:10 2020 From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 04:04:10 +0000 Subject: SCO software box last chance Message-ID: <841008BE-4EED-484D-AA30-C82D873238DA@swri.edu> All, have not yet brought myself to throw away this big box of SCO software. Last call, though. I?ll pay media rate to get it to you in the US, just let me know that you want it and where to ship it. If you are abroad, email me and we can split postage, depending on total price. SCO OpenServer (TM) Development System Documentation Package Version 5.0 Part Number: 505-000-101 Model Number: MC105-UX00-5.0 Order Number: 87873506 Big Aqua-colored bocx that says, SCO: It?s Business Critical,. It?s SCO. - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell From technoid6502 at gmail.com Sun Jan 5 02:56:05 2020 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2020 03:56:05 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 64, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 2020-01-03 at 12:00 -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > On 1/2/2020 1:35 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > > > > Anyone done anything with Netware *for PowerPC*? Allegedly > > > > there was > > > > some attempt at Apple to put it on what later became the > > > > Network Servers > > > > (the codename was apparently "Wormhole"). > > > I know the people who were working in it (based on Portable > > > NetWare) > > > AFAIK it never shipped. > > Was this based on the Cygnus PowerPC port, or was it Apple- > > specific? > > > Sun did a power? PC? port I think paid for by IBM, which would have > run > on both the open Apple servers that briefly existed, and on IBM PPC > systems. > > A lot of odd PPC work happened in a group a friend worked for in > Austin > TX, but not sure if they did Netware work there.? There was a lot of > OS2 > work there as well, but that's off track a bit more. > > thanks > Jim I was lead tech at a small computer company in Asheville, NC. in those days. I ran OS/2 from version 2 in the early 90's to Ecomstation in the early 2000's. Does Talingent Pink sound familiar? OS/2 was ported to powerPC, and so was Netware iirc. The field was quite busy with hopeful Microsoft killers. OS/2 was to be morphed into a cross-platform o/s, to wean folks from dos/x86..... Then PPC kills the x86 and we all get a decent os. That was the plan anyway. I never saw OS2 for PPC or Netware for OS/2, thought I know both to have shipped. Jeff From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Jan 5 03:28:18 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 01:28:18 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 64, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/5/2020 12:56 AM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 2020-01-03 at 12:00 -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> On 1/2/2020 1:35 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Anyone done anything with Netware *for PowerPC*? Allegedly >>>>> there was >>>>> some attempt at Apple to put it on what later became the >>>>> Network Servers >>>>> (the codename was apparently "Wormhole"). >>>> I know the people who were working in it (based on Portable >>>> NetWare) >>>> AFAIK it never shipped. >>> Was this based on the Cygnus PowerPC port, or was it Apple- >>> specific? >>> >> Sun did a power? PC? port I think paid for by IBM, which would have >> run >> on both the open Apple servers that briefly existed, and on IBM PPC >> systems. >> >> A lot of odd PPC work happened in a group a friend worked for in >> Austin >> TX, but not sure if they did Netware work there.? There was a lot of >> OS2 >> work there as well, but that's off track a bit more. >> >> thanks >> Jim > I was lead tech at a small computer company in Asheville, NC. in those > days. I ran OS/2 from version 2 in the early 90's to Ecomstation in > the early 2000's. > > Does Talingent Pink sound familiar? OS/2 was ported to powerPC, and so > was Netware iirc. The field was quite busy with hopeful Microsoft > killers. OS/2 was to be morphed into a cross-platform o/s, to wean > folks from dos/x86..... Then PPC kills the x86 and we all get a decent > os. That was the plan anyway. I never saw OS2 for PPC or Netware for > OS/2, thought I know both to have shipped. > > Jeff > > My friend was on the OS2 PPC team, I think, didn't mention that. Been too long since I heard from him to be absolutely sure what was when. If I had to guess from my memory of what platforms he was on, it was PPC? OS/2 first, then he and everyone they didn't can was moved to AIX. Then the decimated it as they have most US development teams. thanks Jim From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 5 09:02:16 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 16:02:16 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 64, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 at 09:56, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, 2020-01-03 at 12:00 -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > On 1/2/2020 1:35 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Anyone done anything with Netware *for PowerPC*? Allegedly > > > > > there was > > > > > some attempt at Apple to put it on what later became the > > > > > Network Servers > > > > > (the codename was apparently "Wormhole"). > > > > I know the people who were working in it (based on Portable > > > > NetWare) > > > > AFAIK it never shipped. > > > Was this based on the Cygnus PowerPC port, or was it Apple- > > > specific? > > > > > Sun did a power? PC? port I think paid for by IBM, which would have > > run > > on both the open Apple servers that briefly existed, and on IBM PPC > > systems. Hang on, this is getting confusing. There was a short-lived project to run OpenSolaris on POWER but that post-dated Apple involvement in PowerPC. I think Sun gave some help. Sun *did* do a full port of OpenStep to Solaris, but while I know people who saw it, I am not sure if it got a full commercial release. Sun also bought a number of NeXTstep software houses, including Lighthouse, but didn't release the code. Sun's half-hearted involvement in NeXTstep is a *particularly* short-sighted move on their part, I feel. It could have given them a big lead. AFAIK, pre Apple merge, there was no native OpenStep for PowerPC or POWER. > > A lot of odd PPC work happened in a group a friend worked for in > > Austin > > TX, but not sure if they did Netware work there.? There was a lot of > > OS2 > > work there as well, but that's off track a bit more. > > I was lead tech at a small computer company in Asheville, NC. in those > days. I ran OS/2 from version 2 in the early 90's to Ecomstation in > the early 2000's. > > Does Talingent Pink sound familiar? OS/2 was ported to powerPC, and so > was Netware iirc. Oh yes. I saw a demo of Processor-Independent Netware on PowerPC. I don't remember the make of the box but it had a gas-plasma flat-panel screen on the front of the case for the server monitoring screen, which I thought was a nice touch. PIN was never commercially launched, and quite rightly too, IMHO. What limited Netware servers wasn't CPU speed or number of cores or anything. I have read a lot about Netware on OS/2 (on x86). That worked and was released. It was not pushed hard enough: it had _immense_ potential. Windows NT 4 Server killed Netware partly because of the ease of running proper server apps on your fileserver -- notably, things like email servers, little mini web servers, firewalls/proxy servers, groupware, stuff like that. You could use your existing Windows skills and knowledge. Netware could do some of that too but it faced problems: * It needed more Netware skills than a lot of Netware admins had * It could destabilise your rock-solid Netware file/print boxes * An Internet-connected Netware box had to be kept updated and that was hard work * Per-user licensing costs meant it could get expensive fast NT 4 server bypassed a lot of that. You could use ordinary Windows Internet apps, often sold for a flat fee, which meant they didn't have per-user licensing. Nice easy GUI configuration. Stuff like connection sharing, etc. in the box. And people often forgot that Netware ran on top of DOS, and you could still access DOS devices, such as the floppy drive, or the CD-ROM if properly configured in DOS and one that lacked Netware-native drivers. Getting it to run on top of OS/2 wasn't that hard, I read. OS/2 could do the easy GUI setup part, it could in theory run simple Internet apps like mail servers and proxy servers outside Netware's memory space. It supported USB and multiple CPUs in its later editions. Its server edition never got much traction, though. It was a good upgrade for OS/2 -- Netware's super-fast file sharing, Netware's superior network directory support, automatic config and provisioning through the dynamic combination of NDS and Zenworks. And it was a good upgrade for Netware, giving it a a friendly, modern, GUI-driven, multitasking multiprocessor OS underneath. OS/2 + NDS extended the "better DOS than DOS, better Windows than Windows" thing to "a better server for Windows than Windows Server". But I don't think either company realised it. I don't know what it would have changed longer-term -- whether OS/2 could have survived and thrived as a server for Windows boxes. But weirder stuff has happened. That was a big niche for Linux in its first decade and a half -- a server for Windows networks. That's where _all_ my commercial Linux deployments went before I moved away from support/consultancy work. In one instance, as an install-media server for an NT4/Netware 4 LAN. Adding another Netware box would have required a ?1000+ server, as much again on Netware licences, and as much again on RAM to support the big disk needed for multiple CD images. With Caldera OpenLinux it took me an afternoon with an old PC and we were in business. It was actually _cheaper_ than fitting CD-ROMs to all the client machines. IBM could probably have afforded to just buy Novell and make it happen, but it didn't. Instead of a potentially industry-transforming product, extending the reach of both parts... Novell bought SUSE and turned it into an enterprise product, got hostile with me when I asked awkward questions at a press conference on the day of the London Underground bombings, then gave up on Netware, while SUSE became a significant enterprise vendor and ultimately gave me a job. *Shrug* > The field was quite busy with hopeful Microsoft > killers. True. Few had a good solid plan, though. > OS/2 was to be morphed into a cross-platform o/s, to wean > folks from dos/x86..... True, but what few remember now is that as well as OS/2 1 (80286) and OS./2 2 (80386), there was also OS/2 3 (CPU-independent). It was initially developed for Intel i810 RISC boxes, the N-10 series, so it was renamed OS/2 NT and later Windows NT... and here we are with it running on a billion computers. > Then PPC kills the x86 and we all get a decent > os. That was the plan anyway. I never saw OS2 for PPC or Netware for > OS/2, thought I know both to have shipped. Workplace OS/2 got a beta but I'm not sure it was ever _sold_. http://www.edm2.com/index.php/Workplace_OS/2:_Just_Good_Old_OS/2%E2%80%A6_For_the_PowerPC! https://tedium.co/2019/02/28/ibm-workplace-os-taligent-history/ http://www.os2museum.com/wp/os2-history/os2-warp-powerpc-edition/ I don't think PIN ever actually shipped. https://books.google.cz/books?id=_NtrYKFH2XAC&lpg=PA4&ots=GzscOIFIBt&dq=%22processor%20independent%20netware%22&pg=PA4#v=onepage&q=%22processor%20independent%20netware%22&f=false https://books.google.cz/books?id=JB4EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA51&ots=8BE3Dy7ouA&dq=%22processor%20independent%20netware%22&pg=PA51#v=onepage&q=%22processor%20independent%20netware%22&f=false -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From gerardcjat at free.fr Sun Jan 5 08:42:15 2020 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 15:42:15 +0100 Subject: HP 1670E logic analyzer QUESTION ?? Message-ID: This equipment is said to have an internal 2 Go HD. Who knows what KIND of HD? ??? HP SCSI? ?? Thanks From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jan 5 12:02:16 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2020 10:02:16 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 64, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <060f3971d641acd417a694980ef9de72376e5c0b.camel@shiresoft.com> On Sun, 2020-01-05 at 03:56 -0500, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > A lot of odd PPC work happened in a group a friend worked for > inAustin TX, but not sure if they did Netware work there.? There was > a lot ofOS2 work there as well, but that's off track a bit more. > thanksJim > I was lead tech at a small computer company in Asheville, NC. in > thosedays. I ran OS/2 from version 2 in the early 90's to > Ecomstation inthe early 2000's. > Does Talingent Pink sound familiar? OS/2 was ported to powerPC, and > sowas Netware iirc. The field was quite busy with hopeful > Microsoftkillers. OS/2 was to be morphed into a cross-platform o/s, > to weanfolks from dos/x86..... Then PPC kills the x86 and we all get > a decentos. That was the plan anyway. I never saw OS2 for PPC or > Netware forOS/2, thought I know both to have shipped. > Jeff > Yes, Taligent Pink is very familiar (and I still have the scars to prove it!).I was part of the IBM team that evaluated Pink. We (IBM) was mainly looking atit to see how to converge OS's between IBM and Apple...at least in terms of themicro-kernel. The Pink teams was shall we say "difficult to work with". I had been working on the IBM Microkernel (was one of the original 6 people onthat team). It was eventually to form the basis of OS/2 for PPC. The way thatthe microkernel project was structured was that most of the "OS" was personalityneutral (e.g. could be used for Unix, OS/2, DOS, etc) and then there was an OSpersonality that ran on top of the infrastructure. OS/2 on PPC was supposed tobe the first to ship. -- TTFN - Guy From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jan 5 12:33:51 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 10:33:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCO software box last chance In-Reply-To: <841008BE-4EED-484D-AA30-C82D873238DA@swri.edu> References: <841008BE-4EED-484D-AA30-C82D873238DA@swri.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Jan 2020, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote: > All, > have not yet brought myself to throw away this big box of SCO software. Last call, though. > I?ll pay media rate to get it to you in the US, just let me know that you want it and where to ship it. If you are abroad, email me and we can split postage, depending on total price. > > SCO OpenServer (TM) > Development System > Documentation Package > > Version 5.0 > Mark, I'd be interested if there's media included as well. Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From classiccmp at crash.com Sun Jan 5 13:58:02 2020 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 11:58:02 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 64, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48cfd41a-36f8-0e79-ab25-989187d9e53f@crash.com> On 01/05/2020 07:02, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > >> OS/2 was to be morphed into a cross-platform o/s, >> to wean folks from dos/x86..... > > True, but what few remember now is that as well as OS/2 1 (80286) and > OS./2 2 (80386), there was also OS/2 3 (CPU-independent). It was > initially developed for Intel i810 RISC boxes, the N-10 series, so it > was renamed OS/2 NT and later Windows NT... and here we are with it > running on a billion computers. Just to clarify, the reference to "i810 RISC" should be the i860 ("N-10"), their second general-purpose RISC design - versus the 960MX from the BiiN project with Siemens in the mid-80s as their first (?), which would become the i960 that was popular in embedded applications. --S. From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 5 14:54:42 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 21:54:42 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 64, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <060f3971d641acd417a694980ef9de72376e5c0b.camel@shiresoft.com> References: <060f3971d641acd417a694980ef9de72376e5c0b.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 at 19:02, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > I had been working on the IBM Microkernel (was one of the original 6 > people onthat team). It was eventually to form the basis of OS/2 for > PPC. The way thatthe microkernel project was structured was that most > of the "OS" was personalityneutral (e.g. could be used for Unix, OS/2, > DOS, etc) and then there was an OSpersonality that ran on top of the > infrastructure. OS/2 on PPC was supposed tobe the first to ship. I think I read that it was based on CMU Mach -- is that right? It did seem for a while that a lot of things were based on Mach, but very few seemed to make it to market. NeXTstep and OSF/1, the only version of which to ship AFAIK was DEC OSF/1 AXP, later Digital UNIX, later Tru64. MkLinux didn't get very far, either, did it? -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 5 14:55:23 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 21:55:23 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 64, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <48cfd41a-36f8-0e79-ab25-989187d9e53f@crash.com> References: <48cfd41a-36f8-0e79-ab25-989187d9e53f@crash.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 at 20:58, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: > > Just to clarify, the reference to "i810 RISC" should be the i860 > ("N-10"), their second general-purpose RISC design - versus the 960MX > from the BiiN project with Siemens in the mid-80s as their first (?), > which would become the i960 that was popular in embedded applications. Oops, I do apologise. You're absolutely right and I knew that. I don't know what I was thinking. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jan 5 16:30:09 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2020 14:30:09 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 64, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: <060f3971d641acd417a694980ef9de72376e5c0b.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2020-01-05 at 21:54 +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 at 19:02, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk > wrote: > > I had been working on the IBM Microkernel (was one of the original 6 > people onthat team). It was eventually to form the basis of OS/2 for > PPC. The way thatthe microkernel project was structured was that > most > of the "OS" was personalityneutral (e.g. could be used for Unix, > OS/2, > DOS, etc) and then there was an OSpersonality that ran on top of the > infrastructure. OS/2 on PPC was supposed tobe the first to ship. > > I think I read that it was based on CMU Mach -- is that right? Yes. We first started with Mach 3.0 build MK58. We did our final fork at MK68. We made some *significant* changes from what CMU had (things like changing mach messages from IPC to RPC) and a whole lot of work in the area of scheduling. > It did seem for a while that a lot of things were based on Mach, but > very few seemed to make it to market. NeXTstep and OSF/1, the only > version of which to ship AFAIK was DEC OSF/1 AXP, later Digital UNIX, > later Tru64. Yes, a lot of things were based on Mach. One OS that you're forgetting is OS X. That is based upon Mach 2.5. > MkLinux didn't get very far, either, did it? > I think that was the original Linux port for PPC. -- TTFN - Guy From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 5 16:41:34 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 23:41:34 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 64, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: <060f3971d641acd417a694980ef9de72376e5c0b.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 at 23:30, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > Yes. We first started with Mach 3.0 build MK58. We did our final > fork at MK68. We made some *significant* changes from what CMU > had (things like changing mach messages from IPC to RPC) and a > whole lot of work in the area of scheduling. Very interesting. If you are allowed to, you should blog about this somewhere -- it is historic stuff. > Yes, a lot of things were based on Mach. One OS that you're forgetting > is OS X. That is based upon Mach 2.5. Well, firstly, no, I wasn't. I didn't mention OS X, or macOS as it's called now, because it's based on NeXTstep. It's a later version of the same OS. Secondly, AIUI, NeXTstep used Mach 2.5 but one of the changes in Mac OS X 1.0 is that they moved to Mach 3 and updated the userland from BSD 4.4-Lite to FreeBSD then-current, hiring Jordan Hubbard to do much of that work.. > > MkLinux didn't get very far, either, did it? > > > I think that was the original Linux port for PPC. It was, and I think only on Apple hardware. There were a few dev builds and then it disappeared, IIRC. [*Checkes*] Yup, OldWorld-ROM NuBus PowerMacs, and later OldWorld PCI PowerMacs -- but later Linux supported PCI Macs directly. There were apparently 4 "developer releases", an R1 and an unfinished R2. Supplanted by Mac OS X, but apparently the Mach work really helped to get NeXTstep and "Rhapsody" bootstrapped on PowerMacs. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jan 5 16:57:55 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2020 14:57:55 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 64, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: <060f3971d641acd417a694980ef9de72376e5c0b.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <86643d9d4045721d1dccc947f87cb3792a113cfb.camel@shiresoft.com> On Sun, 2020-01-05 at 23:41 +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 at 23:30, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Yes. We first started with Mach 3.0 build MK58. We did our final > > fork at MK68. We made some *significant* changes from what CMU > > had (things like changing mach messages from IPC to RPC) and a > > whole lot of work in the area of scheduling. > > Very interesting. If you are allowed to, you should blog about this > somewhere -- it is historic stuff. Yea, unfortunately I've lost most of the historical documentation starting when we were all packed up to move from Boca Raton, FL to Austin, TX and then when I left IBM in 1997. I still have a set of the IBM Microkernel manuals (several 1000 pages that was all written in Framemaker) and I *may* still have a CD with the final set of sources on it (but where that might be would be an interesting question). > > > Yes, a lot of things were based on Mach. One OS that you're > > forgetting > > is OS X. That is based upon Mach 2.5. > > Well, firstly, no, I wasn't. I didn't mention OS X, or macOS as it's > called now, because it's based on NeXTstep. It's a later version of > the same OS. > > Secondly, AIUI, NeXTstep used Mach 2.5 but one of the changes in Mac > OS X 1.0 is that they moved to Mach 3 and updated the userland from > BSD 4.4-Lite to FreeBSD then-current, hiring Jordan Hubbard to do > much > of that work.. No OS X uses Mach 2.5. I worked in the kernel group at Apple for a number of years and am fairly familiar with the kernel. They may have pulled a few things from Mach 3.0, but it is still fundamentally Mach 2.5. > > > > MkLinux didn't get very far, either, did it? > > > > > > > I think that was the original Linux port for PPC. > > It was, and I think only on Apple hardware. There were a few dev > builds and then it disappeared, IIRC. > > [*Checkes*] > > Yup, OldWorld-ROM NuBus PowerMacs, and later OldWorld PCI PowerMacs > -- > but later Linux supported PCI Macs directly. > > There were apparently 4 "developer releases", an R1 and an unfinished > R2. Supplanted by Mac OS X, but apparently the Mach work really > helped > to get NeXTstep and "Rhapsody" bootstrapped on PowerMacs. > -- TTFN - Guy From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun Jan 5 17:06:24 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 15:06:24 -0800 Subject: Taligent Message-ID: <7279D14E-02A4-4BC5-873D-9EC831AD013D@eschatologist.net> On Jan 5, 2020, at 12:56 AM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > Does Talingent Pink sound familiar? OS/2 was ported to powerPC, and so > was Netware iirc. The field was quite busy with hopeful Microsoft > killers. OS/2 was to be morphed into a cross-platform o/s, to wean > folks from dos/x86..... Then PPC kills the x86 and we all get a decent > os. That was the plan anyway. I never saw OS2 for PPC or Netware for > OS/2, thought I know both to have shipped. Pink was the C++ operating system project at Apple that became Taligent. I know a couple of people who did a developer kitchen for Pink pre-Taligent, and I also know a number of folks who worked on the Taligent system and tools?and have personally seen a demo of the Taligent Application Environment running on AIX. I?ve even seen a CD set for Taligent Application Environment (TalAE) 1.0 on AIX, and I have a beta developer and user documentation set. Unfortunately my understanding is that the CD sets given to employees to commemorate shipping TalAE were all *blank*?the rumor I?ve heard is that IBM considered it too valuable to give them the actual software that they had worked for years on. (Maybe there were tax implications because of what IBM valued the license at, and the fact that it would have to be considered compensation?) Taligent itself was only one component of IBM?s Workplace/OS strategy, which was a plan to rebase everything atop Mach so you could run AIX and OS/2 and Taligent all at once on the same hardware without quite using virtual machines for it all. The idea is that Apple would do pretty much the same with Copland and Taligent atop NuKernel rather than Mach. It would be really great to actually get the shipping Taligent environment and tools archived somewhere. While only bits and pieces of it are still in use?for example, ICU?a lot of important and influential work was done as part of the project. For example, the design of most of the unit testing frameworks today actually comes from *Taligent*, since Kent Beck wrote SUnit to re-create it in Smalltalk, and JUnit and OCUnit were based on SUnit?s design and everything else derived from JUnit? ? Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun Jan 5 17:12:02 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 15:12:02 -0800 Subject: OpenStep Solaris Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2020, at 7:02 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Sun *did* do a full port of OpenStep to Solaris, but while I know > people who saw it, I am not sure if it got a full commercial release. Not quite! Sun was a participant in creating the OpenStep standard (the NS class prefix stands for ?NeXT/Sun?) and *created their own implementation* of OpenStep for Solaris. (Just as GNUstep is an independent implementation of the OpenStep spec under the FSF umbrella, and OPENSTEP/Mach and OPENSTEP/Enterprise were NeXT?s implementations.) OpenStep Solaris was released, both the user and developer environment, and you should be able to find them today and install them on Solaris 2.5 or later. I think OpenStep will run on everything through Solaris 7 or Solaris 8, but at some point it stopped working because it required Display PostScript in the window server. > Sun also bought a number of NeXTstep software houses, including > Lighthouse, but didn't release the code. Indeed, that was post-OpenStep; they weren?t buying companies like Lighthouse to get a suite of applications for OpenStep Solaris, they were buying them to port their stuff to Java (since Java was based rather heavily on Objective-C, and some aspects of the Java frameworks? designs on OpenStep). ? Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun Jan 5 17:21:32 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 15:21:32 -0800 Subject: Mach Message-ID: <954A7404-75B2-442E-93AC-B33802F59D77@eschatologist.net> On Jan 5, 2020, at 2:30 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > ?It did seem for a while that a lot of things were based on Mach, but >> >> very few seemed to make it to market. NeXTstep and OSF/1, the only >> version of which to ship AFAIK was DEC OSF/1 AXP, later Digital UNIX, >> later Tru64. > > Yes, a lot of things were based on Mach. One OS that you're forgetting > is OS X. That is based upon Mach 2.5. Nope, Mac OS X 10.0 was significantly upgraded and based on Mach 4 and BSD 4.4 content (via FreeBSD among other sources). It was NeXT that never got beyond Mach 2.5 and BSD 4.2. (I know, distinction without a difference, but this is an issue of historicity.) I think only some of the changes from Mach 2.5?3?4 made it into Mac OS X Server 1.0 (aka Rhapsody) so maybe that?s what you?re remembering. >> MkLinux didn't get very far, either, did it? >> > > I think that was the original Linux port for PPC. It was the original Linux port for NuBus PowerPC Macs at least. It was never really intended to ?get very far? in the first place, it was more of an experimental system that a few people at Apple threw together and managed to allow the release of to the public. MkLinux was interesting for two reasons: It documented the NuBus PowerMac hardware such that others could port their OSes to it, and it enabled some direct performance comparisons of things like running the kernel in a Mach task versus running it colocated with the microkernel (and thus turning all of its IPCs into function calls). Turns out running the kernel as an independent Mach task cost 10-15% overhead, which was significant on a system with a clock under 100MHz. Keep in mind too that this was in the early Linux 2.x days where Linux ?threads? were implemented via fork()? I don?t recall if anyone ever did any ?multi-server? experiments with it like were done at CMU, where the monolithic kernel were broken up into multiple cooperating tasks by responsibility. It would have been interesting to see whether the overhead stayed relatively constant, grew, or shrank, and how division of responsibility affected that. ? Chris From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun Jan 5 17:22:07 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 15:22:07 -0800 Subject: OpenStep Solaris In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/5/20 3:12 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > On Jan 5, 2020, at 7:02 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > >> Sun *did* do a full port of OpenStep to Solaris, but while I know >> people who saw it, I am not sure if it got a full commercial release. > > Not quite! Sun was a participant in creating the OpenStep standard (the NS class prefix stands for ?NeXT/Sun?) and *created their own implementation* of OpenStep for Solaris. (Just as GNUstep is an independent implementation of the OpenStep spec under the FSF umbrella, and OPENSTEP/Mach and OPENSTEP/Enterprise were NeXT?s implementations.) > > OpenStep Solaris was released, both the user and developer environment, and you should be able to find them today and install them on Solaris 2.5 or later. I think OpenStep will run on everything through Solaris 7 or Solaris 8, but at some point it stopped working because it required Display PostScript in the window server. I demoed OpenStep Solaris on top of CDE in my last exhibit at VCF PNW. It could be awkward trying to figure out where to look for application's menu. Just to make things extra ugly, I ran MAE (Macintosh Application Environment) at the same time. I also have a SPARCstation 5 running OPENSTEP/Mach on SPARC. > >> Sun also bought a number of NeXTstep software houses, including >> Lighthouse, but didn't release the code. > > Indeed, that was post-OpenStep; they weren?t buying companies like Lighthouse to get a suite of applications for OpenStep Solaris, they were buying them to port their stuff to Java (since Java was based rather heavily on Objective-C, and some aspects of the Java frameworks? designs on OpenStep). > Lighthouse was also the source for the Sun CEO who gets a lot of blame for the fall of Sun. alan From barythrin at gmail.com Sun Jan 5 17:39:12 2020 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 17:39:12 -0600 Subject: Vintage computing spots in Chicago? Message-ID: I'll be in Chicago for a week soon for a work event. Limited time for myself but I'll have some time Sunday to maybe Uber around. Any suggestions or cool spots for a computer collector to hit? I see a museum of broadcast communications is close to where I'll be which may be neat. Not sure if there are any used stores that might have vintage computers but always willing to try. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jan 5 19:00:35 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2020 17:00:35 -0800 Subject: Taligent In-Reply-To: <7279D14E-02A4-4BC5-873D-9EC831AD013D@eschatologist.net> References: <7279D14E-02A4-4BC5-873D-9EC831AD013D@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <8f559717d47e9d3aa7c5b3c67b7245c448490128.camel@shiresoft.com> On Sun, 2020-01-05 at 15:06 -0800, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > On Jan 5, 2020, at 12:56 AM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Does Talingent Pink sound familiar? OS/2 was ported to powerPC, > > and so > > was Netware iirc. The field was quite busy with hopeful Microsoft > > killers. OS/2 was to be morphed into a cross-platform o/s, to wean > > folks from dos/x86..... Then PPC kills the x86 and we all get a > > decent > > os. That was the plan anyway. I never saw OS2 for PPC or Netware > > for > > OS/2, thought I know both to have shipped. > > Pink was the C++ operating system project at Apple that became > Taligent. I know a couple of people who did a developer kitchen for > Pink pre-Taligent, and I also know a number of folks who worked on > the Taligent system and tools?and have personally seen a demo of the > Taligent Application Environment running on AIX. > > I?ve even seen a CD set for Taligent Application Environment (TalAE) > 1.0 on AIX, and I have a beta developer and user documentation set. > Unfortunately my understanding is that the CD sets given to employees > to commemorate shipping TalAE were all *blank*?the rumor I?ve heard > is that IBM considered it too valuable to give them the actual > software that they had worked for years on. (Maybe there were tax > implications because of what IBM valued the license at, and the fact > that it would have to be considered compensation?) > > Taligent itself was only one component of IBM?s Workplace/OS > strategy, which was a plan to rebase everything atop Mach so you > could run AIX and OS/2 and Taligent all at once on the same hardware > without quite using virtual machines for it all. The idea is that > Apple would do pretty much the same with Copland and Taligent atop > NuKernel rather than Mach. > > It would be really great to actually get the shipping Taligent > environment and tools archived somewhere. While only bits and pieces > of it are still in use?for example, ICU?a lot of important and > influential work was done as part of the project. For example, the > design of most of the unit testing frameworks today actually comes > from *Taligent*, since Kent Beck wrote SUnit to re-create it in > Smalltalk, and JUnit and OCUnit were based on SUnit?s design and > everything else derived from JUnit? No, you don't. The object model that they used was *seriously* deranged. When I last looked at it there were >1200 objects and they were so interdependent that it was nearly impossible to make a change to one object without the change cascading across a large number of objects. They were also proud of the fact that on average only 6 *instructions* would be executed between method invocations...so performance sucked because you were just doing method calls. Rather than having a standardized "size" method for an object they actually had code in the object look at the new operator for the object (e.g. the binary machine code) in order to determine its size. As I said, I have scars from my interactions with Taligent. -- TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jan 5 19:10:16 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2020 17:10:16 -0800 Subject: Mach In-Reply-To: <954A7404-75B2-442E-93AC-B33802F59D77@eschatologist.net> References: <954A7404-75B2-442E-93AC-B33802F59D77@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <09652c2e6cdedff19d8888a2e199f8268d7ff99d.camel@shiresoft.com> On Sun, 2020-01-05 at 15:21 -0800, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > On Jan 5, 2020, at 2:30 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ?It did seem for a while that a lot of things were based on Mach, > > but > > > > > > very few seemed to make it to market. NeXTstep and OSF/1, the > > > only > > > version of which to ship AFAIK was DEC OSF/1 AXP, later Digital > > > UNIX, > > > later Tru64. > > > > Yes, a lot of things were based on Mach. One OS that you're > > forgetting > > is OS X. That is based upon Mach 2.5. > > Nope, Mac OS X 10.0 was significantly upgraded and based on Mach 4 > and BSD 4.4 content (via FreeBSD among other sources). It was NeXT > that never got beyond Mach 2.5 and BSD 4.2. (I know, distinction > without a difference, but this is an issue of historicity.) > > I think only some of the changes from Mach 2.5?3?4 made it into Mac > OS X Server 1.0 (aka Rhapsody) so maybe that?s what you?re > remembering. You're probably thinking about the user space. I was working on the OS X kernel from 2006-2012. I can tell you that most of the kernel that was still Mach related (most actually got removed...about all that was left was mach message) was 2.5 based with some enhancements. > > > > MkLinux didn't get very far, either, did it? > > > > > > > I think that was the original Linux port for PPC. > > It was the original Linux port for NuBus PowerPC Macs at least. It > was never really intended to ?get very far? in the first place, it > was more of an experimental system that a few people at Apple threw > together and managed to allow the release of to the public. > > MkLinux was interesting for two reasons: It documented the NuBus > PowerMac hardware such that others could port their OSes to it, and > it enabled some direct performance comparisons of things like running > the kernel in a Mach task versus running it colocated with the > microkernel (and thus turning all of its IPCs into function calls). > Turns out running the kernel as an independent Mach task cost 10-15% > overhead, which was significant on a system with a clock under > 100MHz. Keep in mind too that this was in the early Linux 2.x days > where Linux ?threads? were implemented via fork()? At IBM we spent a *significant* amount of time optimizing the microkernel performance. I recall that on a 90MHz 601 PPC, we got round-trip RPC below 1 micro-second. I personally spent a significant amount of time optimizing the Pentium kernel entry/exit code and optimizing the CPU specific porition of Mach RPC (it actually took advantage of the x86 segmentation hardware). > > I don?t recall if anyone ever did any ?multi-server? experiments with > it like were done at CMU, where the monolithic kernel were broken up > into multiple cooperating tasks by responsibility. It would have been > interesting to see whether the overhead stayed relatively constant, > grew, or shrank, and how division of responsibility affected that. The IBM microkernel project was *very* multi-server. There was a version of AIX and OS/2 that ran on top of the IBM microkernel (which was a heavily modified version of Mach 3.0) were there were quite a few OS neutral servers (including most device drivers) that were all in their own server tasks. -- TTFN - Guy From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jan 5 10:51:05 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 08:51:05 -0800 Subject: HP 1670E logic analyzer QUESTION ?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The HP 16500 / 1660 / 1670 series which have hard drives use standard IDE drives. They might be slightly picky about which drives work. Any drive larger than around 2GB might have some issues. Why do you ask? On Sun, Jan 5, 2020, 6:42 AM GerardCJAT via cctech wrote: > This equipment is said to have an internal 2 Go HD. > > Who knows what KIND of HD ?? HP SCSI ?? > > Thanks > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jan 5 13:36:41 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 11:36:41 -0800 Subject: HP 1670E logic analyzer QUESTION ?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I forgot that at some point they switched from 3.5-inch drives to 2.5-inch drives. I just pulled the cover off my 1670E to check exactly what it has for a hard drive. It is an IBM Travelstar model DBCA-203240, 3.2GB, 4200RPM, 2.5-Inch Hard Disk Drive with ATA/IDE Interface, with a date code of March 1999. That is the original hard drive, it has an HP sticker with a raw HD part number of 0950-3641, which matches the part number in the Agilent Technologies 1670G-Series Logic Analyzers Service Guide, 01670-97015. I can't find a service guide specific to the 1670E at the moment. I don't have an HP 1660E/ES/EP-Series Logic Analyzer to check. Those are also color LCD display models, and I believe they also use 2.5-inch drives. The older HP 1660C/CS/CP-Series, 1670A-Series, and 1670D-Series with mono CRT displays use 3.5-inch drives. On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 8:51 AM Glen Slick wrote: > > The HP 16500 / 1660 / 1670 series which have hard drives use standard IDE drives. > > They might be slightly picky about which drives work. Any drive larger than around 2GB might have some issues. > > Why do you ask? > > On Sun, Jan 5, 2020, 6:42 AM GerardCJAT via cctech wrote: >> >> This equipment is said to have an internal 2 Go HD. >> >> Who knows what KIND of HD ?? HP SCSI ?? >> >> Thanks >> From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 6 05:52:35 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 12:52:35 +0100 Subject: OpenStep Solaris In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 at 00:12, Chris Hanson wrote: > > Not quite! Sun was a participant in creating the OpenStep standard (the NS class prefix stands for ?NeXT/Sun?) and *created their own implementation* of OpenStep for Solaris. (Just as GNUstep is an independent implementation of the OpenStep spec under the FSF umbrella, and OPENSTEP/Mach and OPENSTEP/Enterprise were NeXT?s implementations.) > > OpenStep Solaris was released, both the user and developer environment, and you should be able to find them today and install them on Solaris 2.5 or later. I think OpenStep will run on everything through Solaris 7 or Solaris 8, but at some point it stopped working because it required Display PostScript in the window server. > > > Sun also bought a number of NeXTstep software houses, including > > Lighthouse, but didn't release the code. > > Indeed, that was post-OpenStep; they weren?t buying companies like Lighthouse to get a suite of applications for OpenStep Solaris, they were buying them to port their stuff to Java (since Java was based rather heavily on Objective-C, and some aspects of the Java frameworks? designs on OpenStep). Fascinating stuff -- thanks for the clarification! -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 6 05:53:57 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 12:53:57 +0100 Subject: OpenStep Solaris In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 at 00:22, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > I demoed OpenStep Solaris on top of CDE in my last exhibit at VCF PNW. > It could be awkward trying to figure out where to look for application's > menu. Just to make things extra ugly, I ran MAE (Macintosh Application > Environment) at the same time. > > I also have a SPARCstation 5 running OPENSTEP/Mach on SPARC. Any screeenshot galleries or better still videos anywhere? I live on a different continent from the one that most VCFs happen on, and have no desire to change. > Lighthouse was also the source for the Sun CEO who gets a lot of blame > for the fall of Sun. Well well. TIL. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From salikmrafiq at gmail.com Mon Jan 6 07:42:05 2020 From: salikmrafiq at gmail.com (salikmrafiq at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 13:42:05 -0000 Subject: Hello All - new member in the UK Message-ID: <000401d5c497$15d4c8b0$417e5a10$@gmail.com> Hello all, a new member here. I?m in the UK where I?ve lived for 17 years now. Before that I lived in Canada. I got my computer bug as a kid playing with VIC20, TRS-80, APPLE ][ and a mainframe. Presently I work as a .Net programmer mainly doing ASP.Net. Most of the old hardware I had stopped working for one reason or another and was binned ? my Dad didn?t like clutter. So I?m surrounded by laptops and a couple of older machines which used to run the network in the office. I?ve started looking around for some vintage machines that I used at Uni. Sparcstation, NeXT Cube are the ones I used the most. One machine that I would very much like to have is a SUN Sparcstation as I?ve some old projects that I did at university which I?d like to carry on working on (also to show my kids what I did at Uni) If anyone on here is in the UK and has a Sparcstation 1,2,4,5 I?d be interested. If it has the ?? drive than I?d be interested in that too. SunOS would be OK as that?s what I used. I am tempted in a NeXT but my project used X11 and a library called InterViews which I think will only work on X. Maybe someone can clarify that. Anyway, enjoying reading the posts and happy to have found you. Salik. From mark.tapley at swri.org Mon Jan 6 08:49:14 2020 From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 14:49:14 +0000 Subject: SCO software box last chance Message-ID: ?spoken for. have not yet brought myself to throw away this big box of SCO software. Last call, though. - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Jan 6 09:40:54 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 07:40:54 -0800 Subject: OpenStep Solaris In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jan 6, 2020, at 06:55, Liam Proven via cctech wrote: > > ?On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 at 00:22, Alan Perry via cctalk > wrote: >> >> I demoed OpenStep Solaris on top of CDE in my last exhibit at VCF PNW. >> It could be awkward trying to figure out where to look for application's >> menu. Just to make things extra ugly, I ran MAE (Macintosh Application >> Environment) at the same time. >> >> I also have a SPARCstation 5 running OPENSTEP/Mach on SPARC. > > Any screeenshot galleries or better still videos anywhere? I didn?t shoot any nor have I seen and I haven?t seen any shot by someone else. I still have the system with all that software installed and could recreate the demo and shoot some video of it if you are interested. alan From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Jan 6 09:40:54 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 07:40:54 -0800 Subject: OpenStep Solaris In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jan 6, 2020, at 06:55, Liam Proven via cctech wrote: > > ?On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 at 00:22, Alan Perry via cctalk > wrote: >> >> I demoed OpenStep Solaris on top of CDE in my last exhibit at VCF PNW. >> It could be awkward trying to figure out where to look for application's >> menu. Just to make things extra ugly, I ran MAE (Macintosh Application >> Environment) at the same time. >> >> I also have a SPARCstation 5 running OPENSTEP/Mach on SPARC. > > Any screeenshot galleries or better still videos anywhere? I didn?t shoot any nor have I seen and I haven?t seen any shot by someone else. I still have the system with all that software installed and could recreate the demo and shoot some video of it if you are interested. alan From mazzinia at tin.it Mon Jan 6 10:46:52 2020 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 17:46:52 +0100 Subject: R: SCO software box last chance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006601d5c4b0$e5ebc620$b1c35260$@tin.it> What's inside ? -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk Inviato: luned? 6 gennaio 2020 15:49 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: SCO software box last chance ?spoken for. have not yet brought myself to throw away this big box of SCO software. Last call, though. - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 6 12:17:57 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 10:17:57 -0800 Subject: Motorola app notes Message-ID: <0b7b9e62-e345-a0b3-fb46-acaed69fb242@bitsavers.org> did anyone copy the moto app notes that were once at http://www.shrubbery.net/~heas/willem/PDF/Motorola/apnoteindex.html ? From sieler at allegro.com Mon Jan 6 20:28:12 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 18:28:12 -0800 Subject: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Re: > Subject: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes > ... > Palo Alto Fry?s closing < > https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Bay-Area-locations-Frys-Electronics-closed-14939907.php> > . > Wow, how important little words are! The URL for the SFGate article is misleadingly "...Bay-Area-locations-Frys-Electronics-closed" ... which is wrong. The CCtalk thread is "One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes" The original SFGate article's title (click on link above to see) is: "One of Bay Area's few Fry's Electronics stores closes" Each means something different. ("one of...last" is more dire than "one of ...few"). Isn't English interesting? Keep that in mind while reading political reporting, too :) Stan From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Jan 6 23:24:50 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 21:24:50 -0800 Subject: OpenStep Solaris In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b2b2c93-daa5-e19f-5f8c-117b9e1768ca@snowmoose.com> On 1/6/20 3:53 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 at 00:22, Alan Perry via cctalk > wrote: >> >> I demoed OpenStep Solaris on top of CDE in my last exhibit at VCF PNW. >> It could be awkward trying to figure out where to look for application's >> menu. Just to make things extra ugly, I ran MAE (Macintosh Application >> Environment) at the same time. >> >> I also have a SPARCstation 5 running OPENSTEP/Mach on SPARC. > > Any screeenshot galleries or better still videos anywhere? I found this photo that I took - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZjYMdZZrIygvsQas9b40QWW7uNxMeD1V/view?usp=sharing alan > > I live on a different continent from the one that most VCFs happen on, > and have no desire to change. > >> Lighthouse was also the source for the Sun CEO who gets a lot of blame >> for the fall of Sun. > > Well well. TIL. > > From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Mon Jan 6 09:46:33 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 09:46:33 -0600 Subject: Vintage computing spots in Chicago? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/5/20 5:39 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > I'll be in Chicago for a week soon for a work event. Limited time for > myself but I'll have some time Sunday to maybe Uber around. Any suggestions > or cool spots for a computer collector to hit? > > I see a museum of broadcast communications is close to where I'll be which > may be neat. Not sure if there are any used stores that might have vintage > computers but always willing to try. What do you collect? From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 03:20:29 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 10:20:29 +0100 Subject: OpenStep Solaris In-Reply-To: <4b2b2c93-daa5-e19f-5f8c-117b9e1768ca@snowmoose.com> References: <4b2b2c93-daa5-e19f-5f8c-117b9e1768ca@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 at 06:25, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/6/20 3:53 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > Any screeenshot galleries or better still videos anywhere? > > I found this photo that I took - > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZjYMdZZrIygvsQas9b40QWW7uNxMeD1V/view?usp=sharing Oh my. That is not what I was expecting. So, Motif, CDE _and_ OpenStep, with a bonus MAE window? -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Jan 7 05:25:40 2020 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 12:25:40 +0100 Subject: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hamr=E9?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?n?= / Computer Automation Museum Project In-Reply-To: <7f7c581d-7b26-a6a9-73c3-aee5bbd8c01d@bitsavers.org> References: <0f85083f-95f8-0c25-b3e3-4922d9d3ccb0@bitsavers.org> <20191016170055.aejngcuuopxlaoli@Update.UU.SE> <20191016170149.mn5lbiw6tf3e5mfg@Update.UU.SE> <02654cae-e830-4e41-4a1a-fff42983827b@bitsavers.org> <7f7c581d-7b26-a6a9-73c3-aee5bbd8c01d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20200107112540.w7f7y6teby57saxv@Update.UU.SE> I'll make another effort to reach Lars. /P On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 11:06:17AM -0800, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I never heard anything more about this. > It would be good to get the manuals back online > > On 10/16/19 10:13 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > there was an email adr on the site, and I've asked if I can mirror the > > contents on bitsavers > > > > > > On 10/16/19 10:01 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > >> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 07:00:55PM +0200, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > >>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 06:42:15PM +0200, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: > >>>> > >>>> svensk datorutveckling i lund (swedish computer development in Lund) > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> There is/was a Lars Hamr?n at sdu. I know because I > >>> have met him when he picked up some CA computers from > >>> a friend. > >>> > >>> /P > >> > >> And I can reach out to him and ask bout the page. > >> > >> /P > >> > > > > > From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 08:30:29 2020 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 08:30:29 -0600 Subject: Vintage computing spots in Chicago? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Made the mistake of not defining that path early on so mostly personal/home computing. But anything I find interesting or historically interesting often finds a way home. I think my largest sets are Commodore and Tandy/radio shack. I see a store called freegeek and "Chicago computer club" which seems to be a store but geared towards businesses? I'm wondering if either of those would be worth a visit. On Tue, Jan 7, 2020, 12:11 AM Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > On 1/5/20 5:39 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > I'll be in Chicago for a week soon for a work event. Limited time for > > myself but I'll have some time Sunday to maybe Uber around. Any > suggestions > > or cool spots for a computer collector to hit? > > > > I see a museum of broadcast communications is close to where I'll be > which > > may be neat. Not sure if there are any used stores that might have > vintage > > computers but always willing to try. > What do you collect? > From jim.manley at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 10:43:28 2020 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:43:28 -0700 Subject: Vintage computing spots in Chicago? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi John, You may already be aware of it and visited if you've ever been to Chicago, but, the Museum of Science and Industry is well worth a visit if you don't find anything more computing oriented that's more interesting. You can check out their current exhibits and search for computing exhibits at https://www.msichicago.org/explore/whats-here. Any Uber driver will know where it is, but just in case, the physical address is 5700 S Lake Shore Dr, Chicago, IL 60637. There are tons of park area surrounding it, but, at this time of year and with it being right on Lake Michigan, you might need to stay indoors lest you become yet-another ice sculpture! The captured Nazi U-boat, U-505, is now inside its own nice, warm exhibit hall, high and dry, and can be entered for tours, along with its Enigma encryption/decryption machine artifacts on display adjacent to it. The machine, rotors, encryption settings books, etc., are all there, that were captured before the crew could send off a radio message warning that the material had been compromised, and before the sub could be scuttled. All the Best, Jim On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 7:30 AM John Herron via cctalk wrote: > Made the mistake of not defining that path early on so mostly personal/home > computing. But anything I find interesting or historically interesting > often finds a way home. I think my largest sets are Commodore and > Tandy/radio shack. > > I see a store called freegeek and "Chicago computer club" which seems to be > a store but geared towards businesses? I'm wondering if either of those > would be worth a visit. > > On Tue, Jan 7, 2020, 12:11 AM Tom Uban via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 1/5/20 5:39 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > > I'll be in Chicago for a week soon for a work event. Limited time for > > > myself but I'll have some time Sunday to maybe Uber around. Any > > suggestions > > > or cool spots for a computer collector to hit? > > > > > > I see a museum of broadcast communications is close to where I'll be > > which > > > may be neat. Not sure if there are any used stores that might have > > vintage > > > computers but always willing to try. > > What do you collect? > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 7 10:55:09 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 08:55:09 -0800 Subject: TU55 / TC01 Message-ID: <773293cc-29db-de0c-6932-6a7ca04048e7@bitsavers.org> I just listed one of my TU55s on eBay I have a second one available in a rack with a TC01 avalilable for pickup in Fremont, CA that I'm accepting offers on. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 11:10:06 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 12:10:06 -0500 Subject: TU55 / TC01 In-Reply-To: <773293cc-29db-de0c-6932-6a7ca04048e7@bitsavers.org> References: <773293cc-29db-de0c-6932-6a7ca04048e7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The description is not showing at all - no text. This is one of those Ebay bugs that has been around for months, but they do not fix. I have reported it several times - you should too. -- Will. On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 12:03 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > I just listed one of my TU55s on eBay > I have a second one available in a rack with a TC01 avalilable for pickup in Fremont, CA > that I'm accepting offers on. > From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 12:12:09 2020 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 12:12:09 -0600 Subject: Vintage computing spots in Chicago? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 8:30 AM John Herron via cctalk wrote: > Made the mistake of not defining that path early on so mostly personal/home > computing. But anything I find interesting or historically interesting > often finds a way home. I think my largest sets are Commodore and > Tandy/radio shack. > > I see a store called freegeek and "Chicago computer club" which seems to be > a store but geared towards businesses? I'm wondering if either of those > would be worth a visit. > FreeGeek is a fun place to poke around. The last few times I was there they had some older PC, Mac, and Commodore (including Amiga) stuff, and I believe a Coleco ADAM set in box. They also have some older game consoles. Not a huge selection, but it's a fun place. > On Tue, Jan 7, 2020, 12:11 AM Tom Uban via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 1/5/20 5:39 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > > I'll be in Chicago for a week soon for a work event. Limited time for > > > myself but I'll have some time Sunday to maybe Uber around. Any > > suggestions > > > or cool spots for a computer collector to hit? > > > > > > I see a museum of broadcast communications is close to where I'll be > > which > > > may be neat. Not sure if there are any used stores that might have > > vintage > > > computers but always willing to try. > > What do you collect? > > > -- Eric Christopherson From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 7 13:37:15 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 11:37:15 -0800 Subject: TU55 / TC01 In-Reply-To: References: <773293cc-29db-de0c-6932-6a7ca04048e7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 1/7/20 11:22 AM, Marc Howard wrote: > Wow, a TU55?+ TC01.? Were they once a part of a PDP-12? PDP-8I I have around 100 R series modules and some custom cables with scotchflex ribbon instead of the printed stuff that de-laminates available that I'm going to sell since I'll never be doing anything with negative-bus equipment in the future. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 7 13:38:44 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 11:38:44 -0800 Subject: TU55 / TC01 In-Reply-To: References: <773293cc-29db-de0c-6932-6a7ca04048e7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9f24c5b2-7f0d-acf6-b269-072e146b0852@bitsavers.org> On 1/7/20 11:37 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I have around 100 R series modules and some custom cables with scotchflex > ribbon instead of the printed stuff that de-laminates available that I'm > going to sell since I'll never be doing anything with negative-bus equipment > in the future. I also have a TC11 and power supply. I'm going to hold off selling my TU56s until I have a setup for reading working reliably at CHM. From cramcram at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 13:22:50 2020 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 11:22:50 -0800 Subject: TU55 / TC01 In-Reply-To: <773293cc-29db-de0c-6932-6a7ca04048e7@bitsavers.org> References: <773293cc-29db-de0c-6932-6a7ca04048e7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Wow, a TU55 + TC01. Were they once a part of a PDP-12? Marc Howard On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 8:55 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I just listed one of my TU55s on eBay > I have a second one available in a rack with a TC01 avalilable for pickup > in Fremont, CA > that I'm accepting offers on. > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 16:55:51 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 17:55:51 -0500 Subject: TU55 / TC01 In-Reply-To: <773293cc-29db-de0c-6932-6a7ca04048e7@bitsavers.org> References: <773293cc-29db-de0c-6932-6a7ca04048e7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 2:23 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I just listed one of my TU55s on eBay > I have a second one available in a rack with a TC01 avalilable for pickup in Fremont, CA > that I'm accepting offers on. Wow. I have a PDP-8/I to connect it to, but I seriously doubt I could come up with enough to be a winning offer. -ethan From evanlinwood at hotmail.com Tue Jan 7 17:14:08 2020 From: evanlinwood at hotmail.com (Evan Linwood) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 23:14:08 +0000 Subject: Motorola app notes (Al Kossow) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > did anyone copy the moto app notes that were once at > http://www.shrubbery.net/~heas/willem/PDF/Motorola/apnoteindex.html ? some of them are available at: http://archive.retro.co.za/archive/Motorola%20Appnotes/ plus a few more on this level: http://archive.retro.co.za/archive/ From nw.johnson at ieee.org Tue Jan 7 18:08:04 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 19:08:04 -0500 Subject: Motorola app notes (Al Kossow) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74d3b13f-300c-d063-5a11-735b64e61a0f@ieee.org> Have you searched for them on the NXP web site? I found the RF ones here: https://www.nxp.com/products/rf/rf-power-application-notes/rf-power-application-notes-by-frequency-range/general-frequency-range-application-notes:RF_FREQ_GEN_FREQ_RANGE_APP_NOTES 73 de Nigel ve3id On 07/01/2020 18:14, Evan Linwood via cctalk wrote: >> did anyone copy the moto app notes that were once at >> http://www.shrubbery.net/~heas/willem/PDF/Motorola/apnoteindex.html ? > some of them are available at: > http://archive.retro.co.za/archive/Motorola%20Appnotes/ > > plus a few more on this level: > http://archive.retro.co.za/archive/ > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue Jan 7 19:00:36 2020 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2020 02:00:36 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 64, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: <060f3971d641acd417a694980ef9de72376e5c0b.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5888dfa808bacdec26387289c55755812218aa43.camel@agj.net> s?n 2020-01-05 klockan 21:54 +0100 skrev Liam Proven via cctalk: > On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 at 19:02, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk > wrote: > > I had been working on the IBM Microkernel (was one of the original > > 6 > > people onthat team). It was eventually to form the basis of OS/2 > > for > > PPC. The way thatthe microkernel project was structured was that > > most > > of the "OS" was personalityneutral (e.g. could be used for Unix, > > OS/2, > > DOS, etc) and then there was an OSpersonality that ran on top of > > the > > infrastructure. OS/2 on PPC was supposed tobe the first to ship. > > I think I read that it was based on CMU Mach -- is that right? > > It did seem for a while that a lot of things were based on Mach, but > very few seemed to make it to market. NeXTstep and OSF/1, the only > version of which to ship AFAIK was DEC OSF/1 AXP, later Digital UNIX, > later Tru64. > > MkLinux didn't get very far, either, did it? > Well in some way or another i got a copy with the book to Sweden. Ran it from 1999 to 2002 or so (got a SGI challenge S as NetBSD machine and a pc as a linux machine at that time in 2002 or so.) Host was a 6100 with the Apple tilt display, i still have the hw, book and MkLinux cd but the psu in the 6100 became bad.... From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue Jan 7 19:08:25 2020 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2020 02:08:25 +0100 Subject: Hello All - new member in the UK In-Reply-To: <000401d5c497$15d4c8b0$417e5a10$@gmail.com> References: <000401d5c497$15d4c8b0$417e5a10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <555a0df2f092c1f6967be94316ea574e34a19822.camel@agj.net> m?n 2020-01-06 klockan 13:42 +0000 skrev Salik Rafiq via cctalk: > Hello all, a new member here. > > > > I?m in the UK where I?ve lived for 17 years now. Before that I lived > in > Canada. > Peter Stokes (Ashlyn Computer Services) have machines to sell including some fairly recent eq at a good price, he is in Grantham. Tel : +44 (0)7977 532320 From dave at 661.org Tue Jan 7 21:25:05 2020 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 03:25:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: KCC and parenthesis in preprocessor lines Message-ID: I'm having some trouble getting Frotz 2.50 ported to TOPS20. Version 2.32 with dumb interface compiles fine under KCC. With 2.50, there are several preprocessor lines that include parentheses. For instance: #if UINT_MAX == (1UL<<32)-1UL typedef unsigned int uint32; #else typedef unsigned long uint32; #endif What's a better way of accomplishing this? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 7 22:41:21 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 20:41:21 -0800 Subject: Motorola app notes (Al Kossow) In-Reply-To: <74d3b13f-300c-d063-5a11-735b64e61a0f@ieee.org> References: <74d3b13f-300c-d063-5a11-735b64e61a0f@ieee.org> Message-ID: On 1/7/20 4:08 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Have you searched for them on the NXP web site? no, I was hoping someone had grabbed the whole directory. there are a few obscure ones there. I was looking for AN1123 MCS3201 Floppy Disk Controller in MC68000 System From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 22:45:40 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 21:45:40 -0700 Subject: Priam 3450/7050 schematic wanted (Priam interface) Message-ID: Bitsavers has a schematic of the ANSI interface version of the Priam 3450/7050 eight-inch hard drives, but does anyone happen to have the schematics of the "normal" version (Priam interface, as opposed to SMD or ANSI)? From deramp5113 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 7 18:44:54 2020 From: deramp5113 at yahoo.com (Mike Douglas) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 18:44:54 -0600 Subject: SWTPC 6800 and Percom Floppy Controller References: Message-ID: I?m restoring a SWTPC 6800 that includes the Percom LFD-400 floppy controller. This controller goes on the SS-50 bus instead of the SS-30 bus where the SWTPC controllers installed. The standard Percom MiniDOS PROM is installed, and the other two PROM sockets have a third party extension called ?Minidisk+?. This was made by a company called Cer-Comp. These PROMs are instead of Percom?s own ?MiniDOS PlusX (MPX) PROM. I?ve got the system working, and I can use Minidisk+ to save and load files, but I know I?m missing some nuances of command parameters. I don?t have any sort of documentation for Minidisk+, so before I go figure it out by disassembling the PROMs, does anyone have any sort of documentation for Minidisk+ by Cer-Comp for the Percom LFD-400 floppy disk controller? Also, I?d like to burn the MPX PROM as an option. Does anyone have the MPX PROM or the source code for MiniDOS PlusX? Mike From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 23:55:27 2020 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 21:55:27 -0800 Subject: Sperry SP-425-08 Display - Datasheet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E58808D-AA7C-4908-88A9-B40FD94A39F3@gmail.com> Anders, I got the schematics of the driver circuitry from the HP 59304A documentation. You should be able to replicate it. Will send you in separate email. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: Anders Nelson , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 6:15 PM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: Sperry SP-425-08 Display - Datasheet? Wow, thanks for all the info! I'd love to see examples of driving circuitry if it's not too much trouble. I've made PCBs and such before so aside from potentially jolting myself I'm up to the challenge. Anything I produce (code, schematics/PCBs) will be posted to my blog as open-source material. Thanks again, Anders On Wed, Jan 1, 2020, 8:34 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: On 2020-Jan-01, at 2:42 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > I snagged one of these Nixie-like displays (from a calculator I assume) and > I'd like to light it up. Does anyone know where I might find the datasheet > for it? Google hasn't turned up anything. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/264110638970 > > Any help is appreciated! 7-segment multiplexed multi-digit gas-discharge display. Those Sperry types weren't very prevalent, I'm not surprised you haven't found a datasheet. I'm being a little presumptuous in specifying gas-disharge, it certainly appears to be, but the ebay pics are a little small. There was another series of GD displays from Sperry, and another from Beckman, which were more prevalent. Assuming it is GD: I have an example of one that appears to be of similar construction to yours in this calculator: http://madrona.ca/e/eec/calcs/SanyoICC83.html Given yours says made in Japan, I wonder if they be from the same OEM. I can send the schematic if you wish, for an example of drive circuitry. It needs a little reformatting and conversion to pdf first, so let me know if interested. I have other calculators and schematics using the Beckman displays (7-segment, multiplexed, multi-digit, gas-discharge). They could also be comparitive examples for drive circuitry. Multiplexed gas discharge displays could be a little finicky to drive, to keep down anomylous ghosting and partial ignition. In the absence of a datasheet, your first task would be to distinguish the digit anodes from the segment cathodes. You might be able to do it visually by looking at the internal construction. Otherwise experimentation with two probes connected to a 150-200V power supply with a series limiting resistor of 200K or maybe even higher to start with. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 8 05:54:37 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 12:54:37 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 64, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <5888dfa808bacdec26387289c55755812218aa43.camel@agj.net> References: <060f3971d641acd417a694980ef9de72376e5c0b.camel@shiresoft.com> <5888dfa808bacdec26387289c55755812218aa43.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Jan 2020 at 02:00, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > > Well in some way or another i got a copy with the book to Sweden. > > Ran it from 1999 to 2002 or so (got a SGI challenge S as NetBSD machine > and a pc as a linux machine at that time in 2002 or so.) > > Host was a 6100 with the Apple tilt display, i still have the hw, book > and MkLinux cd but the psu in the 6100 became bad.... Wow! I am impressed. I am interested in both Macs and Linux, and I don't think I ever saw a running copy anywhere. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jan 8 10:31:51 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 11:31:51 -0500 Subject: SWTPC 6800 and Percom Floppy Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0a0401d5c641$22245d00$666d1700$@verizon.net> You might try asking on the Flex Users "fufu" list. I have a working MiniDOS PlusX LFD-400 setup. I would be happy to trade dumps if you are interested. Bill S. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Douglas via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2020 7:45 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: SWTPC 6800 and Percom Floppy Controller I?m restoring a SWTPC 6800 that includes the Percom LFD-400 floppy controller. This controller goes on the SS-50 bus instead of the SS-30 bus where the SWTPC controllers installed. The standard Percom MiniDOS PROM is installed, and the other two PROM sockets have a third party extension called ?Minidisk+?. This was made by a company called Cer-Comp. These PROMs are instead of Percom?s own ?MiniDOS PlusX (MPX) PROM. I?ve got the system working, and I can use Minidisk+ to save and load files, but I know I?m missing some nuances of command parameters. I don?t have any sort of documentation for Minidisk+, so before I go figure it out by disassembling the PROMs, does anyone have any sort of documentation for Minidisk+ by Cer-Comp for the Percom LFD-400 floppy disk controller? Also, I?d like to burn the MPX PROM as an option. Does anyone have the MPX PROM or the source code for MiniDOS PlusX? Mike From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 8 11:54:58 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 18:54:58 +0100 Subject: Design flaw in the SCSI spec? In-Reply-To: <202001081126.48235.gheskett@shentel.net> References: <65fc5b50-eb3e-e482-26e8-2fc5f675dba2@gmail.com> <947d9dda-8f1b-542f-805a-f1df1d1f8a50@gmail.com> <202001081126.48235.gheskett@shentel.net> Message-ID: With his express permission, I'm forwarding a mail from a public list. I am interested in Gene's comments about the design of SCSI, but I don't know enough electronics to judge. I thought others here might. I have trimmed the mail a little to the relevant parts. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Gene Heskett Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 at 17:29 Subject: Re: External Disk Intrusion To: On Wednesday 08 January 2020 09:01:35 Liam Proven wrote: [...] > The thing is that actual SCSI cabling faults are very hard to > diagnose. We used to have internet jokes about them and the need for > sacrificial goats or chickens, but of particular colours for different > cable types, pentagram drawn in blood, holy candles, etc. > And all that pickityness can be laid at the feet of a bean counter between the interface card designer, who specified a $2.00 schotkey diode for buss isolation, which had a maximum voltage drop across it of perhaps .1 volts, and changed to have an 8 cent Si diode with .666 volts drop across it, thereby lowering the logic one voltage by .45 volts. Since the logic one at the logic chips inputs had to be at lease 2.2 volts, and the nearest set of termination resistors gave 3.0 volts when this buss isolation diode was replaced with a short, but with the cheap Si diode in there gave a logic one voltage closer to 2.4 most of the circuits noise margin was used up and considering that same bean counter crossed out the 5% terminators in favor of 20% tolerance, the result was predictable. The situation was much better when active terminations came into use, but by that time the scsi buss's reputation was doomed. But back in the day of the bottom 190 market tv stations were generating their on air gfx needs with a bank of Amiga computers, every scsi card that came in the door, if the engineer was worth his paycheck, that diode was replaced the first time the Amiga it was in, crashed. End of problem except for one Trump Card, where in traceing that card, I found the termpacks had been soldered in bass ackwards. It was easier to cut and jumper the supplies traces than to unsolder the packs and turn them around. So I did that in addition to swapping out the infamous diode. We, in a middle 160's market, were the first to put our news on the air, out as a webpage, which led to legal problems because CBS fussed about their copyrights, so we had to filter any web content that came from CBS, but that didn't last long after their bean counters discovered there was money to be made. That was all driven by ARexx and delivered by dialup from that Amiga in those Jurrasic (in web time) days. Who am I to criticise the makers of that stuff? I have an 8th grade diploma, but I am also a CET. Look that up if you care. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis Genes Web page -- ubuntu-users mailing list ubuntu-users at lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 8 12:06:40 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 13:06:40 -0500 Subject: Design flaw in the SCSI spec? In-Reply-To: References: <65fc5b50-eb3e-e482-26e8-2fc5f675dba2@gmail.com> <947d9dda-8f1b-542f-805a-f1df1d1f8a50@gmail.com> <202001081126.48235.gheskett@shentel.net> Message-ID: <516B3859-A43C-4D51-83BB-477A138BAD75@comcast.net> > On Jan 8, 2020, at 12:54 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > With his express permission, I'm forwarding a mail from a public list. > I am interested in Gene's comments about the design of SCSI, but I > don't know enough electronics to judge. > > I thought others here might. > > I have trimmed the mail a little to the relevant parts. > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > ... > And all that pickityness can be laid at the feet of a bean counter > between the interface card designer, who specified a $2.00 schotkey > diode for buss isolation, which had a maximum voltage drop across it of > perhaps .1 volts, and changed to have an 8 cent Si diode with .666 volts > drop across it, thereby lowering the logic one voltage by .45 volts. Allowing accountants to do electrical engineering makes just as much sense as allowing sociologists to do brain surgery. That's true whether you're building a disk interface or an airplane. But why is such a corporate organizational screwup any reflection on the SCSI standard? I suppose it depends on the spec, and in particular the conformance requirements. A properly constructed spec is written such that two conforming implementations will interoperate. Ethernet and the DECnet specs are examples of this, and in fact that property was an explicitly stated requirement in the DECnet architecture team. Unfortunately "conformance implies interoperability" is not nowadays all that common a standards property. I've even found myself involved in a standard development effort where the standard document editor explicitly told me that "conformance implies interoperability" was NOT a goal for that standard. I never quite understood why he thought that was reasonable, or why he was permitted to "hold the pen" on a major technical spec. paul From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 8 12:17:29 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 10:17:29 -0800 Subject: Design flaw in the SCSI spec? In-Reply-To: References: <65fc5b50-eb3e-e482-26e8-2fc5f675dba2@gmail.com> <947d9dda-8f1b-542f-805a-f1df1d1f8a50@gmail.com> <202001081126.48235.gheskett@shentel.net> Message-ID: Before I go delving into my pile of SCSI X3T10 documentation and interface chip datasheets, exactly *which* flavor of SCSI are we talking about here? --Chuck From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Jan 8 12:32:52 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 19:32:52 +0100 Subject: Design flaw in the SCSI spec? In-Reply-To: References: <65fc5b50-eb3e-e482-26e8-2fc5f675dba2@gmail.com> <947d9dda-8f1b-542f-805a-f1df1d1f8a50@gmail.com> <202001081126.48235.gheskett@shentel.net> Message-ID: <20200108183252.GA9751@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Jan 08, 2020 at 10:17:29AM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Before I go delving into my pile of SCSI X3T10 documentation and interface > chip datasheets, exactly *which* flavor of SCSI are we talking about here? Given the reference to the Amiga, almost certainly SCSI-1, i.e. 8 bit wide single-ended HVD, clocked asynchronously at low single-digit MHz. The A2091 (and thus presumably the A590) was a pretty hateful controller, but the main sources of pain were its shoddy firmware and the limited Zorro-II bus rather than the SCSI interface. Perhaps the third-party GVP controllers swapped it around so the firmware was great but the SCSI side sucked. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 8 12:45:29 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 10:45:29 -0800 Subject: Design flaw in the SCSI spec? In-Reply-To: <20200108183252.GA9751@mooli.org.uk> References: <65fc5b50-eb3e-e482-26e8-2fc5f675dba2@gmail.com> <947d9dda-8f1b-542f-805a-f1df1d1f8a50@gmail.com> <202001081126.48235.gheskett@shentel.net> <20200108183252.GA9751@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 1/8/20 10:32 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Jan 08, 2020 at 10:17:29AM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Before I go delving into my pile of SCSI X3T10 documentation and interface >> chip datasheets, exactly *which* flavor of SCSI are we talking about here? > > Given the reference to the Amiga, almost certainly SCSI-1, i.e. 8 bit wide > single-ended HVD, clocked asynchronously at low single-digit MHz. > > The A2091 (and thus presumably the A590) was a pretty hateful controller, but > the main sources of pain were its shoddy firmware and the limited Zorro-II bus > rather than the SCSI interface. Perhaps the third-party GVP controllers swapped > it around so the firmware was great but the SCSI side sucked. SCSI-1 was pretty chancy to begin, but even SCSI-2 had a bit of voodoo associated with it. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jan 8 12:49:21 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 11:49:21 -0700 Subject: Design flaw in the SCSI spec? In-Reply-To: References: <65fc5b50-eb3e-e482-26e8-2fc5f675dba2@gmail.com> <947d9dda-8f1b-542f-805a-f1df1d1f8a50@gmail.com> <202001081126.48235.gheskett@shentel.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 10:55 AM Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > With his express permission, I'm forwarding a mail from a public list. > I am interested in Gene's comments about the design of SCSI, but I > don't know enough electronics to judge. > > And all that pickityness can be laid at the feet of a bean counter >> between the interface card designer, who specified a $2.00 schotkey >> diode for buss isolation, which had a maximum voltage drop across it of >> perhaps .1 volts, and changed to have an 8 cent Si diode with .666 volts >> drop across it, thereby lowering the logic one voltage by .45 volts. >> > The complaint is with the design of a specific host adapter, not of SCSI itself, and specifically with the diode that host adapter uses to provide termination power. The complaint is only relevant to the use of passive termination, though the specific host adapter might include passive termination on board. The problem can be solved by removing the on-board passive termination and using an active terminator. A schottky diode will have a minimum drop around 0.3V (not 0.1V!), and typical with an actual termination load the drop will be closer to 0.4V to 0.5V. Better than a normal silicon rectifier, but not hugely better. Using real-world values of 5V termination power, 220/330 ohm passive terminator, 0.45V for the schottky diode drop, and 0.7V for a silicon diode drop, the resulting termination voltages are 2.73V with a schottky diode ((5.0 - 0.45) * 0.6) and 2.58V with a silicon diode ((5.0 - 0.7) * 0.6). While 2.73V is clearly better than 2.58V, the difference isn't as huge as Gene suggests. The SCSI data lines are normally actively driven, so during data transfer the termination voltage is not the only thing pulling the line up to a logic high. Even in the 1980s, a schottky diode cost under ten cents, not $2. It was maybe a few pennies more than a silicon diode. It is highly unlikely that a "bean counter" was involved in this decision at all. An engineer made the decision, presumably believing that the slightly higher voltage drop of the silicon diode didn't make a big difference. Is a schottky diode better for powering a bus terminator? Certainly. Is it a disaster to use a silicon diode in stead? In my opinion, no. I suspect that the Amiga SCSI host adapter had other issues that are much more significant with regard to system reliability. Eric From mechanic_2 at charter.net Wed Jan 8 12:58:25 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2020 12:58:25 -0600 Subject: Design flaw in the SCSI spec? In-Reply-To: References: <65fc5b50-eb3e-e482-26e8-2fc5f675dba2@gmail.com> <947d9dda-8f1b-542f-805a-f1df1d1f8a50@gmail.com> <202001081126.48235.gheskett@shentel.net> Message-ID: <5E162651.2070807@charter.net> Hello all, I used Amigas for several decades and I really liked SCSI. The problems with the Amiga and SCSI were related to firmware and not the hardware. It was important to use the latest SCSI Roms on the 2091 and the 590. The A3000 did have a problem with the hardware. If you upgraded the SCSI controller chip it fixed the A3000 problem. I still use SCSI with my windoze machine. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 1/8/2020 12:49 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 10:55 AM Liam Proven via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> With his express permission, I'm forwarding a mail from a public list. >> I am interested in Gene's comments about the design of SCSI, but I >> don't know enough electronics to judge. >> > >> And all that pickityness can be laid at the feet of a bean counter >>> between the interface card designer, who specified a $2.00 schotkey >>> diode for buss isolation, which had a maximum voltage drop across it of >>> perhaps .1 volts, and changed to have an 8 cent Si diode with .666 volts >>> drop across it, thereby lowering the logic one voltage by .45 volts. >>> > The complaint is with the design of a specific host adapter, not of SCSI > itself, and specifically with the diode that host adapter uses to provide > termination power. > > The complaint is only relevant to the use of passive termination, though > the specific host adapter might include passive termination on board. The > problem can be solved by removing the on-board passive termination and > using an active terminator. > > A schottky diode will have a minimum drop around 0.3V (not 0.1V!), and > typical with an actual termination load the drop will be closer to 0.4V to > 0.5V. Better than a normal silicon rectifier, but not hugely better. > > Using real-world values of 5V termination power, 220/330 ohm passive > terminator, 0.45V for the schottky diode drop, and 0.7V for a silicon diode > drop, the resulting termination voltages are 2.73V with a schottky diode > ((5.0 - 0.45) * 0.6) and 2.58V with a silicon diode ((5.0 - 0.7) * 0.6). > While 2.73V is clearly better than 2.58V, the difference isn't as huge as > Gene suggests. > > The SCSI data lines are normally actively driven, so during data transfer > the termination voltage is not the only thing pulling the line up to a > logic high. > > Even in the 1980s, a schottky diode cost under ten cents, not $2. It was > maybe a few pennies more than a silicon diode. It is highly unlikely that a > "bean counter" was involved in this decision at all. An engineer made the > decision, presumably believing that the slightly higher voltage drop of the > silicon diode didn't make a big difference. > > Is a schottky diode better for powering a bus terminator? Certainly. Is it > a disaster to use a silicon diode in stead? In my opinion, no. > > I suspect that the Amiga SCSI host adapter had other issues that are much > more significant with regard to system reliability. > > Eric > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 8 12:56:05 2020 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 18:56:05 +0000 Subject: Design flaw in the SCSI spec? In-Reply-To: <516B3859-A43C-4D51-83BB-477A138BAD75@comcast.net> References: <65fc5b50-eb3e-e482-26e8-2fc5f675dba2@gmail.com> <947d9dda-8f1b-542f-805a-f1df1d1f8a50@gmail.com> <202001081126.48235.gheskett@shentel.net> <516B3859-A43C-4D51-83BB-477A138BAD75@comcast.net> Message-ID: <865a168a-ea30-ee97-96f7-47154d4b5c83@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/01/2020 18:06, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Allowing accountants to do electrical engineering makes just as much > sense as allowing sociologists to do brain surgery. Off topic, but allowing accountants to do accountancy isn't always much better. I recall the Christmas when our accountant insisted on an inventory of the electronics repair workshop. We kept our small components in a bank of drawers some 1.5m (around 5 feet) wide by about 1m (3 feet or so) high. Each drawer is just over 50mm (2") by 50mm. A drawer would hold several tens of 1/10W resistors, or some loose transistors or capacitors, or half a dozen ICs, or... And he wanted each one counted. And a cost given for each single item. And insisted that estimates were unacceptable for either count or cost. A few years later, when the company was about to be wound up, a colleague and I bought the bank of drawers and several other items for ?100. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 8 13:15:26 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 11:15:26 -0800 Subject: Design flaw in the SCSI spec? In-Reply-To: <5E162651.2070807@charter.net> References: <65fc5b50-eb3e-e482-26e8-2fc5f675dba2@gmail.com> <947d9dda-8f1b-542f-805a-f1df1d1f8a50@gmail.com> <202001081126.48235.gheskett@shentel.net> <5E162651.2070807@charter.net> Message-ID: <9e975095-c395-eadc-e719-02180f51d05d@bitsavers.org> On 1/8/20 10:58 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > The A3000 did have > a problem with the hardware. If you upgraded the SCSI controller chip it fixed the A3000 problem. I guessed it was a WD http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=73936 yup.. Amigas weren't the only systems that had problems with WD33C93s From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Jan 8 13:17:42 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 19:17:42 +0000 Subject: Design flaw in the SCSI spec? In-Reply-To: <865a168a-ea30-ee97-96f7-47154d4b5c83@dunnington.plus.com> References: <65fc5b50-eb3e-e482-26e8-2fc5f675dba2@gmail.com> <947d9dda-8f1b-542f-805a-f1df1d1f8a50@gmail.com> <202001081126.48235.gheskett@shentel.net> <516B3859-A43C-4D51-83BB-477A138BAD75@comcast.net> <865a168a-ea30-ee97-96f7-47154d4b5c83@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 08/01/2020 18:56, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > > I recall the Christmas when our accountant insisted on an inventory of > the electronics repair workshop.? We kept our small components in a > bank of drawers some 1.5m (around 5 feet) wide by about 1m (3 feet or > so) high.? Each drawer is just over 50mm (2") by 50mm.? A drawer would > hold several tens of 1/10W resistors, or some loose transistors or > capacitors, or half a dozen ICs, or... And he wanted each one counted. > ?And a cost given for each single item.? And insisted that estimates > were unacceptable for either count or cost. > > A few years later, when the company was about to be wound up, a > colleague and I bought the bank of drawers and several other items for > ?100. > I had a similar experience. "We need you to list each item, with item. We'll check a sample later". There were many hundreds of boards to list (as well as many systems, where the requirement was more reasonable). So I listed each board and when they came to check I picked (at random, of course) a bag of M9047 cards. "As you can see, they have an ID on the handle, but no serial number". They checked, they agreed with my analysis and were perfectly satisfied. Just simple people skills required :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From mechanic_2 at charter.net Wed Jan 8 13:27:00 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2020 13:27:00 -0600 Subject: Design flaw in the SCSI spec? In-Reply-To: <9e975095-c395-eadc-e719-02180f51d05d@bitsavers.org> References: <65fc5b50-eb3e-e482-26e8-2fc5f675dba2@gmail.com> <947d9dda-8f1b-542f-805a-f1df1d1f8a50@gmail.com> <202001081126.48235.gheskett@shentel.net> <5E162651.2070807@charter.net> <9e975095-c395-eadc-e719-02180f51d05d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5E162D04.4020304@charter.net> Al, Yep!! GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 1/8/2020 1:15 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/8/20 10:58 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: >> The A3000 did have >> a problem with the hardware. If you upgraded the SCSI controller chip it fixed the A3000 problem. > I guessed it was a WD > > http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=73936 > > yup.. > > Amigas weren't the only systems that had problems with WD33C93s > > > > From w9gb at icloud.com Wed Jan 8 14:29:29 2020 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 14:29:29 -0600 Subject: SWTPC 6800 and Percom Floppy Controller Message-ID: Mike - Cer-Comp 5566 Ricochet Avenue Las Vegas, NV 89110 (702) 452-0632 William E. Vergona wrote firmware on those two (2), 2708 ROMs. He later (1980s) worked with Tandy (Coco-3) Color Computer products. == ?68 Journal, May 1980 (Back to Future, 40 years later) MiniDisk+ DOS , Pages 11 - 13 http://www.swtpcemu.com/swtpc/68MJArchive/V02N05_May1980.pdf Have you contacted Bob Applegate (Corsham Tech)? https://www.corshamtech.com/ss-50-faqs/ He might be aware of source from his SS-50 clients and contacts. Bob reopened his business (Corsham) three weeks ago, for a period of time. I did not see him at VCF Midwest, due to his health issues. https://www.corshamtech.com/back-in-business-for-now/ Greg Chicago == From: Mike Douglas To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: SWTPC 6800 and Percom Floppy Controller I?m restoring a SWTPC 6800 that includes the Percom LFD-400 floppy controller. This controller goes on the SS-50 bus instead of the SS-30 bus where the SWTPC controllers installed. The standard Percom MiniDOS PROM is installed, and the other two PROM sockets have a third party extension called ?Minidisk+?. This was made by a company called Cer-Comp. These PROMs are instead of Percom?s own ?MiniDOS PlusX (MPX) PROM. I?ve got the system working, and I can use Minidisk+ to save and load files, but I know I?m missing some nuances of command parameters. I don?t have any sort of documentation for Minidisk+, so before I go figure it out by disassembling the PROMs, does anyone have any sort of documentation for Minidisk+ by Cer-Comp for the Percom LFD-400 floppy disk controller? Also, I?d like to burn the MPX PROM as an option. Does anyone have the MPX PROM or the source code for MiniDOS PlusX? Mike From deramp5113 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 8 15:02:37 2020 From: deramp5113 at yahoo.com (Mike Douglas) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 21:02:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: SWTPC 6800 and Percom Floppy Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <591493142.8733052.1578517357665@mail.yahoo.com> Greg, Thanks for the response. The article you reference is also the one bit of documentation I was able to find. It's been a big help. I have been in contact with Bob and recently picked up one of his RAM/EPROM boards to use while I get the system restored. Mike On Wednesday, January 8, 2020, 2:29:32 PM CST, Gregory Beat wrote: Mike - Cer-Comp5566 Ricochet AvenueLas Vegas, NV 89110(702) 452-0632William E. Vergona wrote firmware on those two (2), 2708 ROMs.He later (1980s) worked with Tandy (Coco-3) Color Computer products.==?68 Journal, May 1980 (Back to Future, 40 years later)MiniDisk+ DOS , Pages 11 - 13http://www.swtpcemu.com/swtpc/68MJArchive/V02N05_May1980.pdf Have you contacted Bob Applegate (Corsham Tech)?https://www.corshamtech.com/ss-50-faqs/He might be aware of source from his SS-50 clients and contacts. Bob reopened his business (Corsham) three weeks ago, for a period of time.I did not see him at VCF Midwest, due to his health issues.https://www.corshamtech.com/back-in-business-for-now/ GregChicago==From: Mike Douglas To:?cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: SWTPC 6800 and Percom Floppy Controller I?m restoring a SWTPC 6800 that includes the Percom LFD-400 floppy controller. This controller goes on the SS-50 bus instead of the SS-30 bus where the SWTPC controllers installed. The standard Percom MiniDOS PROM is installed, and the other two PROM sockets have a third party extension called ?Minidisk+?. This was made by a company called Cer-Comp. These PROMs are instead of Percom?s own ?MiniDOS PlusX (MPX) PROM.? I?ve got the system working, and I can use Minidisk+ to save and load files, but I know I?m missing some nuances of command parameters. I don?t have any sort of documentation for Minidisk+, so before I go figure it out by disassembling the PROMs, does anyone have any sort of documentation for Minidisk+ by Cer-Comp for the Percom LFD-400 floppy disk controller? Also, I?d like to burn the MPX PROM as an option. Does anyone have the MPX PROM or the source code for MiniDOS PlusX? Mike From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Jan 8 17:44:00 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:44:00 -0800 Subject: Design flaw in the SCSI spec? In-Reply-To: References: <65fc5b50-eb3e-e482-26e8-2fc5f675dba2@gmail.com> <947d9dda-8f1b-542f-805a-f1df1d1f8a50@gmail.com> <202001081126.48235.gheskett@shentel.net> Message-ID: <657f82e1-1cf0-c0fb-1931-6b7250b23c6d@jwsss.com> On 1/8/2020 9:54 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > With his express permission, I'm forwarding a mail from a public list. > I am interested in Gene's comments about the design of SCSI, but I > don't know enough electronics to judge. > > I thought others here might. > > I have trimmed the mail a little to the relevant parts. > The electronics of the SCSI interface were designed initially by the precursor to Adaptec.? At the time that the SCSI committee was formed, there was work by a number of companies.? Among them were HP, and the like. I know the design for the 40mhz flavor was done by Emulex with Bill Roberts, one of the founders involved in the design work at Emulex. I'm not sure that bean counters factored into anything there, but business did, as Emulex saw dominating the parallel bus market emerging as SCSI as a critical goal for the corporation. I went to an ANSI meeting with Bill Roberts when he presented work that Emulex did that defined the 20mhz flavor.? Thru the process of the definition of SCSI-I there was a continuous evolution of the performance of the bus, and of the protocol to best exploit the additional performance. The one thing that I do recall was that AMP would always be present with a new and wonderful connector tweak or design if needed.? They got to supply the bulk of the product as a result. thanks Jim From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Jan 8 17:57:08 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 23:57:08 +0000 Subject: Design flaw in the SCSI spec? In-Reply-To: <657f82e1-1cf0-c0fb-1931-6b7250b23c6d@jwsss.com> References: <65fc5b50-eb3e-e482-26e8-2fc5f675dba2@gmail.com> <947d9dda-8f1b-542f-805a-f1df1d1f8a50@gmail.com> <202001081126.48235.gheskett@shentel.net> <657f82e1-1cf0-c0fb-1931-6b7250b23c6d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 1/8/20 6:44 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/8/2020 9:54 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> With his express permission, I'm forwarding a mail from a public list. >> I am interested in Gene's comments about the design of SCSI, but I >> don't know enough electronics to judge. >> >> I thought others here might. >> >> I have trimmed the mail a little to the relevant parts. >> > The electronics of the SCSI interface were designed initially by the > precursor to Adaptec.? At the time that the SCSI committee was formed, > there was work by a number of companies.? Among them were HP, and the like. > And then you have DEC. I have often heard DSSI described as SCSI done right. bill From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jan 8 17:59:26 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 16:59:26 -0700 Subject: Design flaw in the SCSI spec? In-Reply-To: <657f82e1-1cf0-c0fb-1931-6b7250b23c6d@jwsss.com> References: <65fc5b50-eb3e-e482-26e8-2fc5f675dba2@gmail.com> <947d9dda-8f1b-542f-805a-f1df1d1f8a50@gmail.com> <202001081126.48235.gheskett@shentel.net> <657f82e1-1cf0-c0fb-1931-6b7250b23c6d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 4:44 PM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The electronics of the SCSI interface were designed initially by the > precursor to Adaptec. At the time that the SCSI committee was formed, > there was work by a number of companies. Among them were HP, and the like. > There was no one common electronic design for SCSI. The electronic designs were unique to many companies. The earliest implementations were board-level interfaces consisting mostly of TTL. Early single-chip implementations included those from NCR and Adaptec, though many others came later. While there were many companies involved in the standardization of SCSI, the original SCSI 1 specification, ANSI X3.131-1986, was a relatively minor elaboration on SASI, which had been developed exclusively by Shugart Associates, hence the name SASI being an acronym of Shugart Associates System Interface. Shugart Associates was an early maker of 8 inch floppy drives and invented the 5 1/4 inch floppy. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jan 8 18:04:34 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 17:04:34 -0700 Subject: Design flaw in the SCSI spec? In-Reply-To: References: <65fc5b50-eb3e-e482-26e8-2fc5f675dba2@gmail.com> <947d9dda-8f1b-542f-805a-f1df1d1f8a50@gmail.com> <202001081126.48235.gheskett@shentel.net> <657f82e1-1cf0-c0fb-1931-6b7250b23c6d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 4:57 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > And then you have DEC. I have often heard DSSI described as > SCSI done right That's reportedly what DEC thought of it, but in practice it was SCSI done differently so as to be incompatible. The only technical "advantage" of DSSI was that it better matched some of DEC's other proprietary storage standards, thus enhancing vendor lock-in and profitability. If you were another company trying to decide whether to use SCSI or DSSI in your products, even if licensing and related cost weren't at issue, the _only_ reason to use DSSI would be to interoperate with DEC. I was a fan of DEC, but they did plenty of things for vendor lock-in rather than technical reasons. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jan 8 18:17:21 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 17:17:21 -0700 Subject: KCC and parenthesis in preprocessor lines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 8:25 PM David Griffith via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm having some trouble getting Frotz 2.50 ported to TOPS20. Version 2.32 > with dumb interface compiles fine under KCC. With 2.50, there are several > preprocessor lines that include parentheses. For instance: > > #if UINT_MAX == (1UL<<32)-1UL > typedef unsigned int uint32; > #else > typedef unsigned long uint32; > #endif > I haven't used KCC, but I'm guessing that even if parenthesis worked, the expression would always be false, because UINT_MAX is not likely to be 2^32-1 on a PDP-10. I would not expect KCC to offer _any_ 32-bit integer type, and that would expect int to be 36 bits. I'm not sure whether to expect long to be 36 bits or 72 bits. Assuming that Frotz doesn't have problems with using a 36-bit integer type where it expects 32-bit, just replace the whole #if block with the appropriate typedef, or nest it inside another #ifdef for some KCC- or PDP-10-specific macro. Or perhaps test CHAR_BIT? An ISO 9899 compliant C compiler for the PDP-10 would have CHAR_BIT of 9, 12 or some multiple thereof, but if KCC isn't 9899 compliant that might not be the case. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Jan 8 19:42:08 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 20:42:08 -0500 Subject: RL02 head gain adjustment: Limits? Message-ID: <42876a80-b9b1-23e0-4373-ee6a4e4ecfa7@alembic.crystel.com> So in the continuing quest of fixing my second RL02 I replaced the heads and found the drive was slow and would generate about 80 block errors on a pack where my reference RL02 drive would never generate more than 10. After doing a positional radial check (fine) and a head alignment check (head 0 and 1 were way off from each other and head 0 was on a crest of the stepper motor (the part where you are between steps, highly unstable). Adjusting that so head 0 and 1 were in a valley on the stepper motor (inherently stable) the drive was much quicker but still would generate about 80 errors. Odd. So on a lark I swapped the head amplifier module from the good drive to the suspect drive. Bingo, 10 errors. So the issue is in the head amplifier, maybe the voltage was too low. Next step was to check the read signal amplitude: Because I have a reference drive I decided to check the signal voltage at track 0 on the reference drive, then move the same pack to the problem drive and verify. On the reference drive track 0 has a signal value of a smidge below 1.5 volts on head 1. On my suspect drive the signal value was 1v. Adjusted it up to 1.5 volts and errors went down to 9. Not bad. Went up to 1.6 volts and errors went down to 6. Hm. So a question: Is it a problem to adjust the read amplitude up, and if so how far can you go. The manual says 2.25, is there a benefit of running up that high? More important, does adjusting the read amplitude also change the write current through the heads? That could result in a pack that may be readable, but will be a mess when written to. What would be nice would be to have a blue amplitude reference pack, but I don't have one of those. Also I haven't tried any other packs in the suspect drive, but maybe I should adjust the amplitude in my reference drive as well. Thoughts? C (All readings done with a tektronix scope. I haven't checked the calibration in awhile, but it should be reasonably in sync) From ruppert at seism.com Wed Jan 8 21:51:21 2020 From: ruppert at seism.com (Stanley Ruppert) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 19:51:21 -0800 Subject: Motorola app notes (Al Kossow) Message-ID: Al, I have the original Motorola paper version of AN1123. I?m happily to scan it for you. I have a pretty complete set from an139 into the 1100s if there are others you need. Regards, Stan Ruppert From mark.tapley at swri.org Wed Jan 8 19:19:11 2020 From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 01:19:11 +0000 Subject: Apple II DOS User's manual Message-ID: <4A05B52C-779E-4841-B2D8-C0885BC2918A@swri.edu> All, next thing in my disposal pile. 3-ring binder, containing a repro copy of the subject line and a 5.25? floppy labelled ?Apple II DOS 3.3 System Master For Apple II, II+, and IIe?. computer is given away a while back, should have sent this with it. I bought it in 2006 and won?t use it. I think all reproductions, not originals. FTGH. - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell From mark.tapley at swri.org Wed Jan 8 19:25:04 2020 From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 01:25:04 +0000 Subject: Commodore PET interfacing description. Message-ID: <36D51171-C412-4D48-9368-AF81A78CB7FF@swri.edu> All, Another thing that surfaced recently on my pile is a manila envelope containing a big photocopied stack of papers, with a title page saying: ? Interfacing the Commodore PET by Bill Durham, David Paul, and jim Wilman University of Arkansas. ? It?s got about 45 pages of text, interspersed with block diagrams showing chip in/out signals and snippets of BASIC code, then a repeat of all that, then a copy of the 6502 instruction set and copies of multiple data sheets for various integrated circuits. Thought I identified an interested party on the list, but no response to PM, so offering it to all. Free to a Good Home, usual terms, first response unless I hear from Al K. before I ship in which case he gets it instead. - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 9 11:28:03 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 09:28:03 -0800 Subject: Motorola app notes (Al Kossow) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/8/20 7:51 PM, Stanley Ruppert via cctalk wrote: > I have a pretty complete set from an139 into the 1100s if there are others > you need. thanks! another list member forwarded his collection which are now on bitsavers I have a few hundred early ANs that I should dig out and scan. After doing that I will probably ask you to gap fill. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 9 11:29:27 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 09:29:27 -0800 Subject: 3M third-party replacement flex-print cables Message-ID: I started going through my cable sets and put a few up on eBay this morning. From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Jan 9 22:57:01 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 20:57:01 -0800 Subject: Info / packs for Amcodyne 7110 "Arapahoe" drive? Message-ID: Hi all -- Got one of these: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/amcodyne/7110/Arapahoe_7110_Brochure_Nov84.pdf sans power supply and packs. I'm guessing that these packs were specific to this drive and not any sort of standard, and that tracking one down is going to require quite a bit of luck. Figured I'd start here :). Also looking for technical info (pinouts for the power connector would be a good start...) Thanks as always, Josh From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 10 06:12:14 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 04:12:14 -0800 Subject: Info / packs for Amcodyne 7110 "Arapahoe" drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/9/20 8:57 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hi all -- > > Got one of these: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/amcodyne/7110/Arapahoe_7110_Brochure_Nov84.pdf > > sans power supply and packs. HP used them in one of their disk products, that is probably where the eBay guy pulled the drive from, since he has a LOT of HP disk parts he's been selling off. I also have a couple of the drives, w/o media or any more docs. If we can identify the HP product, its early enough that HP would have printed a good service manual. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Jan 10 07:18:29 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 08:18:29 -0500 Subject: Info / packs for Amcodyne 7110 "Arapahoe" drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Right off the bat it looks like a CDC Lark pack. Wonder if the whole thing is a re-badged Lark. Once I get these RL02's out of the way I'll drag my Lark out from the shed and start looking at it. If I recall one drive is in the shed, one in the attic along with the power supply. Then again I thought I had one Porsche 911E fuel pump in the shed, but that was sold years ago. Hm..... C On 1/9/2020 11:57 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hi all -- > > Got one of these: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/amcodyne/7110/Arapahoe_7110_Brochure_Nov84.pdf > > sans power supply and packs. I'm guessing that these packs were specific > to this drive and not any sort of standard, and that tracking one down is > going to require quite a bit of luck. Figured I'd start here :). Also > looking for technical info (pinouts for the power connector would be a good > start...) > > Thanks as always, > Josh > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 10 11:08:46 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 09:08:46 -0800 Subject: Info / packs for Amcodyne 7110 "Arapahoe" drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8f7c544a-9138-a533-a2d7-8f3e60ff8c78@bitsavers.org> On 1/10/20 5:18 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Right off the bat it looks like a CDC Lark pack. Wonder if the whole thing is a re-badged Lark. There were three different companies that made 8" drives like that, Amcodyne, Datapoint/Honeywell-Bull, and CDC I don't think the packs were interchangeable. A Lark pack looks like this https://www.ebay.com/itm/232764466348 amcodyne https://patents.google.com/patent/US4530022A From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Jan 10 11:47:46 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 09:47:46 -0800 Subject: Info / packs for Amcodyne 7110 "Arapahoe" drive? In-Reply-To: <8f7c544a-9138-a533-a2d7-8f3e60ff8c78@bitsavers.org> References: <8f7c544a-9138-a533-a2d7-8f3e60ff8c78@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2020-Jan-10, at 9:08 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 1/10/20 5:18 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Right off the bat it looks like a CDC Lark pack. Wonder if the whole thing is a re-badged Lark. > > There were three different companies that made 8" drives like that, Amcodyne, Datapoint/Honeywell-Bull, and CDC > I don't think the packs were interchangeable. There's also the REC RC25, fixed & removable 26M platters. From svens at stackframe.org Fri Jan 10 11:57:14 2020 From: svens at stackframe.org (Sven Schnelle) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 18:57:14 +0100 Subject: LIF filesystem under linux Message-ID: <20200110175714.GA16796@t470p.stackframe.org> Hi list, is anyone aware of a LIF filesystem implementation for Linux? I'm aware of lifutils, but i'm looking for filesystem integration either via fuse or via in-kernel module. Haven't found anything on the internet. Thanks Sven From jpstewart at sympatico.ca Fri Jan 10 14:02:28 2020 From: jpstewart at sympatico.ca (John-Paul Stewart) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 15:02:28 -0500 Subject: Info / packs for Amcodyne 7110 "Arapahoe" drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-01-10 7:12 a.m., Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 1/9/20 8:57 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >> Hi all -- >> >> Got one of these: >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/amcodyne/7110/Arapahoe_7110_Brochure_Nov84.pdf >> >> >> sans power supply and packs. > > HP used them in one of their disk products, that is probably where the eBay > guy pulled the drive from, since he has a LOT of HP disk parts he's been > selling off. > > I also have a couple of the drives, w/o media or any more docs. If we can > identify the HP product, its early enough that HP would have printed a good > service manual. Is it from the HP 7907A drive? The 20.5 MB capacity (each) for the fixed and removable discs seems to match. It's roughly the same time frame, too. http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=555 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 10 15:06:18 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 13:06:18 -0800 Subject: Info / packs for Amcodyne 7110 "Arapahoe" drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9341ca28-fc99-f12c-07f4-d86348c2eeb8@bitsavers.org> yup! that looks like it! On 1/10/20 12:02 PM, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk wrote: > Is it from the HP 7907A drive? The 20.5 MB capacity (each) for the > fixed and removable discs seems to match. It's roughly the same time > frame, too. > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=555 > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 10 15:09:40 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 13:09:40 -0800 Subject: Info / packs for Amcodyne 7110 "Arapahoe" drive? In-Reply-To: <9341ca28-fc99-f12c-07f4-d86348c2eeb8@bitsavers.org> References: <9341ca28-fc99-f12c-07f4-d86348c2eeb8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <59c99db3-e56a-5109-743f-970892881f60@bitsavers.org> here is the disk https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=561 the hardware support manual is 07907-90903 On 1/10/20 1:06 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > yup! that looks like it! > > On 1/10/20 12:02 PM, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk wrote: > >> Is it from the HP 7907A drive? The 20.5 MB capacity (each) for the >> fixed and removable discs seems to match. It's roughly the same time >> frame, too. >> >> http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=555 >> > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 10 15:12:06 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 13:12:06 -0800 Subject: Info / packs for Amcodyne 7110 "Arapahoe" drive? In-Reply-To: <59c99db3-e56a-5109-743f-970892881f60@bitsavers.org> References: <9341ca28-fc99-f12c-07f4-d86348c2eeb8@bitsavers.org> <59c99db3-e56a-5109-743f-970892881f60@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <15519f31-8ceb-3461-1459-f2a258145b3b@bitsavers.org> and it looks like I have a pc board http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/photos/7907/07907-60003_7907_DTC_488_F.jpg The controller was made by DTC On 1/10/20 1:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > here is the disk > https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=561 > > the hardware support manual is 07907-90903 > > On 1/10/20 1:06 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> yup! that looks like it! >> >> On 1/10/20 12:02 PM, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Is it from the HP 7907A drive? The 20.5 MB capacity (each) for the >>> fixed and removable discs seems to match. It's roughly the same time >>> frame, too. >>> >>> http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=555 >>> >> > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 10 15:15:55 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 13:15:55 -0800 Subject: Info / packs for Amcodyne 7110 "Arapahoe" drive? In-Reply-To: <15519f31-8ceb-3461-1459-f2a258145b3b@bitsavers.org> References: <9341ca28-fc99-f12c-07f4-d86348c2eeb8@bitsavers.org> <59c99db3-e56a-5109-743f-970892881f60@bitsavers.org> <15519f31-8ceb-3461-1459-f2a258145b3b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <23c88767-4d37-5b8b-329e-b49c8d26663f@bitsavers.org> some packs https://www.ebay.com/itm//362021616865 On 1/10/20 1:12 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > and it looks like I have a pc board > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/photos/7907/07907-60003_7907_DTC_488_F.jpg > > The controller was made by DTC > > On 1/10/20 1:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> here is the disk >> https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=561 >> >> the hardware support manual is 07907-90903 >> >> On 1/10/20 1:06 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> yup! that looks like it! >>> >>> On 1/10/20 12:02 PM, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> Is it from the HP 7907A drive? The 20.5 MB capacity (each) for the >>>> fixed and removable discs seems to match. It's roughly the same time >>>> frame, too. >>>> >>>> http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=555 >>>> >>> >> > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 10 15:42:46 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 16:42:46 -0500 Subject: Pro-380 power supply Message-ID: <3E8DE616-0DB6-416B-BBF4-C10D203331DB@comcast.net> I have a Pro-380 with an H7862-C power supply. Recently the power supply input filter (where the cord plugs in) shorted out, causing melted filter guts to leak out of the case and put a big smoke cloud in the room. Fortunately I have a spare, but it's an H7862 (not -C). I'm planning to replace the failed input filter, but in the meantime: does anyone know what the difference is between the two versions? Is it just a design tweak, or does the -C have different specs (like higher current ratings)? The replacement came out of a Pro-350 component set. paul From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 15:47:17 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 13:47:17 -0800 Subject: Info / packs for Amcodyne 7110 "Arapahoe" drive? In-Reply-To: <23c88767-4d37-5b8b-329e-b49c8d26663f@bitsavers.org> References: <9341ca28-fc99-f12c-07f4-d86348c2eeb8@bitsavers.org> <59c99db3-e56a-5109-743f-970892881f60@bitsavers.org> <15519f31-8ceb-3461-1459-f2a258145b3b@bitsavers.org> <23c88767-4d37-5b8b-329e-b49c8d26663f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Thanks everyone for the information -- that definitely looks like the same drive mechanism. I had no idea HP sold a drive like that. I think I may wait for the price to come down a bit on those packs, though :). - Josh On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 1:23 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > some packs > https://www.ebay.com/itm//362021616865 > > On 1/10/20 1:12 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > and it looks like I have a pc board > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/photos/7907/07907-60003_7907_DTC_488_F.jpg > > > > The controller was made by DTC > > > > On 1/10/20 1:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> here is the disk > >> https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=561 > >> > >> the hardware support manual is 07907-90903 > >> > >> On 1/10/20 1:06 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >>> yup! that looks like it! > >>> > >>> On 1/10/20 12:02 PM, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk wrote: > >>> > >>>> Is it from the HP 7907A drive? The 20.5 MB capacity (each) for the > >>>> fixed and removable discs seems to match. It's roughly the same time > >>>> frame, too. > >>>> > >>>> http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=555 > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 10 16:02:06 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 14:02:06 -0800 Subject: Info / packs for Amcodyne 7110 "Arapahoe" drive? In-Reply-To: References: <9341ca28-fc99-f12c-07f4-d86348c2eeb8@bitsavers.org> <59c99db3-e56a-5109-743f-970892881f60@bitsavers.org> <15519f31-8ceb-3461-1459-f2a258145b3b@bitsavers.org> <23c88767-4d37-5b8b-329e-b49c8d26663f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I checked my drive, pn 7110S-HP likely SASI, that DTC board is a SASI to HPIB bridge Maybe HPMuseum knows where there are used packs. My drive looks like it came off of a HP1000 system (LU40 and 42) I just checked all of the scans I made from Crisis Computer's service library and it figures I didn't scan the binder with 7907 info. From the binder inventory I did, they had the depot hardware manual. On 1/10/20 1:47 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Thanks everyone for the information -- that definitely looks like the same drive mechanism.? I had no idea HP sold a > drive like that. > > I think I may wait for the price to come down a bit on those packs, though :). From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 17:12:54 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 23:12:54 -0000 Subject: Old Nokia/alfaskop 3270 terminal Message-ID: <05e301d5c80b$7d21f2f0$7765d8d0$@gmail.com> Folks, Can any one remember how to get an AlfaSkop terminal into local setup mode> Dave Wade G4UGM & EA7KAE From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 17:20:11 2020 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (davidkcollins2 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 10:20:11 +1100 Subject: Info / packs for Amcodyne 7110 "Arapahoe" drive? In-Reply-To: References: <9341ca28-fc99-f12c-07f4-d86348c2eeb8@bitsavers.org> <59c99db3-e56a-5109-743f-970892881f60@bitsavers.org> <15519f31-8ceb-3461-1459-f2a258145b3b@bitsavers.org> <23c88767-4d37-5b8b-329e-b49c8d26663f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <005401d5c80c$8304a4a0$890dede0$@gmail.com> I have one or two packs and a drive in the museum but that's all. If I had a surplus of packs I'd be happy to share... David Collins -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Saturday, 11 January 2020 9:02 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Info / packs for Amcodyne 7110 "Arapahoe" drive? I checked my drive, pn 7110S-HP likely SASI, that DTC board is a SASI to HPIB bridge Maybe HPMuseum knows where there are used packs. My drive looks like it came off of a HP1000 system (LU40 and 42) I just checked all of the scans I made from Crisis Computer's service library and it figures I didn't scan the binder with 7907 info. From the binder inventory I did, they had the depot hardware manual. On 1/10/20 1:47 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Thanks everyone for the information -- that definitely looks like the > same drive mechanism. I had no idea HP sold a drive like that. > > I think I may wait for the price to come down a bit on those packs, though :). From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 22:45:06 2020 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 23:45:06 -0500 Subject: pdp11 MicroPower/Pascal Message-ID: Hi, Would anyone still have a copy of latest pdp11 MicroPower/Pascal? I'm trying to have a retro programming contest / party at my house and want to feature Pascal along with Macro-11 and maybe c on a real 11/23 with RL02s under TSX. Hoping to hang like ten users at once on the 'ol girl and make 'em really feel the speed. I might let up a little and run the contest on my 11/73 with scsi if it's too terrible :) Anyway, looked around the net for hours and can't find a copy of MicroPower/Pascal, so if anyone can help, I'd be grateful. Found TSX-Plus, though! Big Thanks again to Lyle and whomever's running the classiccmp site these days! --jake From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jan 11 06:15:10 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 13:15:10 +0100 Subject: Old Nokia/alfaskop 3270 terminal In-Reply-To: <05e301d5c80b$7d21f2f0$7765d8d0$@gmail.com> References: <05e301d5c80b$7d21f2f0$7765d8d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi! What kind of Alfaskop terminal do you have? Incidentally, me and a friend has been working quite a lot with Alfaskop terminals lately. I have been refurbishing a complete Alfaskop S41 terminal cluster with terminal , floppy unit and terminal controller. In the process I have dumped all PROMs, PALs and FPLAs so that my friend could create an emulation of the system in MAME. A bit of the project is described here: https://github.com/MattisLind/alfaskop_emu and here: http://www.datormuseum.se/peripherals/terminals/alfaskop This short clip show when we just recently managed to boot the terminal and the communication processor. https://youtu.be/6DPpZw8JOmI Aside from getting emulation of the cluster we are working on building a gateway to bridge IBM BSC to TN3270 so that the system could be used with Hercules. Then also we are looking into creating hardware so that the emulated communication processor could talk over the proprietary interface used by the system with a real Alfaskop terminal. So the answer to your question is that to get an Alfaskop running you need the communcation processor and a floppy drive. There are some variants that are more self contained. The older System S37 had a model which included the emulation software in ROM. But I doubt that one had a setup menu. It had very simple 8 bit TTL CPU. Then the system 41 could run in standalone mode. But it still required a floppy drive to load the software from. I don't know much about the later models, but my understanding is that those also booted from the communication processor, the 9101. /Mattis Den l?r 11 jan. 2020 kl 00:13 skrev Dave Wade via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > Folks, > > > > Can any one remember how to get an AlfaSkop terminal into local setup mode> > > Dave Wade > > G4UGM & EA7KAE > > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Jan 11 07:03:30 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 13:03:30 -0000 Subject: Old Nokia/alfaskop 3270 terminal In-Reply-To: References: <05e301d5c80b$7d21f2f0$7765d8d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f901d5c87f$861829f0$92487dd0$@gmail.com> Mattis, These are VDU472C which were produced with both Nokia and ICL badges. They are very much a straightforward IBM3179 clone and have normal IBM coax ports on the back. They have 122-key PC style keyboards with a large plug. Not sure if they are AT or XT style. A parallel printer port. Inside there is a M68000P12 CPU. So an ?embedded system? with no floppies. I have it plugged into am IBM 3174 screen controller and can connect out to I know Matt Burke (9track.net) has plugged his SDLC 3174 controller into a CISCO router and used CISCO SDLC encapsulation to pass data to a modified Hercules. This works for MVS but not MTS or VM. Dave From: Mattis Lind Sent: 11 January 2020 12:15 To: Dave Wade ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Old Nokia/alfaskop 3270 terminal Hi! What kind of Alfaskop terminal do you have? Incidentally, me and a friend has been working quite a lot with Alfaskop terminals lately. I have been refurbishing a complete Alfaskop S41 terminal cluster with terminal , floppy unit and terminal controller. In the process I have dumped all PROMs, PALs and FPLAs so that my friend could create an emulation of the system in MAME. A bit of the project is described here: https://github.com/MattisLind/alfaskop_emu and here: http://www.datormuseum.se/peripherals/terminals/alfaskop This short clip show when we just recently managed to boot the terminal and the communication processor. https://youtu.be/6DPpZw8JOmI Aside from getting emulation of the cluster we are working on building a gateway to bridge IBM BSC to TN3270 so that the system could be used with Hercules. Then also we are looking into creating hardware so that the emulated communication processor could talk over the proprietary interface used by the system with a real Alfaskop terminal. So the answer to your question is that to get an Alfaskop running you need the communcation processor and a floppy drive. There are some variants that are more self contained. The older System S37 had a model which included the emulation software in ROM. But I doubt that one had a setup menu. It had very simple 8 bit TTL CPU. Then the system 41 could run in standalone mode. But it still required a floppy drive to load the software from. I don't know much about the later models, but my understanding is that those also booted from the communication processor, the 9101. /Mattis Den l?r 11 jan. 2020 kl 00:13 skrev Dave Wade via cctalk >: Folks, Can any one remember how to get an AlfaSkop terminal into local setup mode> Dave Wade G4UGM & EA7KAE From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 11 09:18:44 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 07:18:44 -0800 Subject: Old Nokia/alfaskop 3270 terminal In-Reply-To: <00f901d5c87f$861829f0$92487dd0$@gmail.com> References: <05e301d5c80b$7d21f2f0$7765d8d0$@gmail.com> <00f901d5c87f$861829f0$92487dd0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <17d21576-a823-e74e-6e2e-d939cb8c8211@bitsavers.org> On 1/11/20 5:03 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > They have 122-key PC style keyboards with a large plug. Not sure if they are AT or XT style. A parallel printer port. Inside there is a M68000P12 CPU. If you ever pull it apart, i'd be interested in seeing pictures of the board(s), what they used for a coax interface, and a dump of the firmware. From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jan 11 09:23:27 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 16:23:27 +0100 Subject: Old Nokia/alfaskop 3270 terminal In-Reply-To: <00f901d5c87f$861829f0$92487dd0$@gmail.com> References: <05e301d5c80b$7d21f2f0$7765d8d0$@gmail.com> <00f901d5c87f$861829f0$92487dd0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, Den l?r 11 jan. 2020 kl 14:03 skrev Dave Wade : > Mattis, > > > > These are VDU472C which were produced with both Nokia and ICL badges. They > are very much a straightforward IBM3179 clone and have normal IBM coax > ports on the back. > > They have 122-key PC style keyboards with a large plug. Not sure if they > are AT or XT style. A parallel printer port. Inside there is a M68000P12 > CPU. > > So an ?embedded system? with no floppies. I have it plugged into am IBM > 3174 screen controller and can connect out to > Ahh. Then that one is much more modern than the Alfaskop 4110 that I have. It is based on a 68A00 processor and loads everthing from the communication processor. S41 series was designed in the laste seventies. Is the VDU472C actually manufactured in Sweden like the rest of the Alfaskop series or somewhere else. Does it say something on some kind of badge? It would be nice to see a picture. > > > I know Matt Burke (9track.net) has plugged his SDLC 3174 controller into > a CISCO router and used CISCO SDLC encapsulation to pass data to a modified > Hercules. > > This works for MVS but not MTS or VM. > OK. The 4101 comm processor only speaks BSC. Need other software to do SNA /SDLC. On the other hand BSC is much easier to understand than the SNA stuff. At least for me who is not used to IBMish. I did manage send a POLL to the comm processor and received back a valid STATUS message. > > > Dave > /Mattis > > > > > *From:* Mattis Lind > *Sent:* 11 January 2020 12:15 > *To:* Dave Wade ; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > *Subject:* Re: Old Nokia/alfaskop 3270 terminal > > > > Hi! > > > > What kind of Alfaskop terminal do you have? > > > > Incidentally, me and a friend has been working quite a lot with Alfaskop > terminals lately. I have been refurbishing a complete Alfaskop S41 terminal > cluster with terminal , floppy unit and terminal controller. In the process > I have dumped all PROMs, PALs and FPLAs so that my friend could create an > emulation of the system in MAME. > > > > A bit of the project is described here: > > > > https://github.com/MattisLind/alfaskop_emu > > > > and here: > > > > http://www.datormuseum.se/peripherals/terminals/alfaskop > > > > This short clip show when we just recently managed to boot the terminal > and the communication processor. > > > > https://youtu.be/6DPpZw8JOmI > > > > Aside from getting emulation of the cluster we are working on building a > gateway to bridge IBM BSC to TN3270 so that the system could be used with > Hercules. Then also we are looking into creating hardware so that the > emulated communication processor could talk over the proprietary interface > used by the system with a real Alfaskop terminal. > > > > So the answer to your question is that to get an Alfaskop running you need > the communcation processor and a floppy drive. There are some variants that > are more self contained. The older System S37 had a model which included > the emulation software in ROM. But I doubt that one had a setup menu. It > had very simple 8 bit TTL CPU. > > > > Then the system 41 could run in standalone mode. But it still required a > floppy drive to load the software from. > > > > I don't know much about the later models, but my understanding is that > those also booted from the communication processor, the 9101. > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > > Den l?r 11 jan. 2020 kl 00:13 skrev Dave Wade via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > > Folks, > > > > Can any one remember how to get an AlfaSkop terminal into local setup mode> > > Dave Wade > > G4UGM & EA7KAE > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Jan 11 13:06:01 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 19:06:01 -0000 Subject: Old Nokia/alfaskop 3270 terminal In-Reply-To: <17d21576-a823-e74e-6e2e-d939cb8c8211@bitsavers.org> References: <05e301d5c80b$7d21f2f0$7765d8d0$@gmail.com> <00f901d5c87f$861829f0$92487dd0$@gmail.com> <17d21576-a823-e74e-6e2e-d939cb8c8211@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <025e01d5c8b2$2a9e50d0$7fdaf270$@gmail.com> Al & Matt Well I have finally figured out how to get into the off-line setup. There is a menu option that says "are you sure" when you select it so I didn't select it. On picking it you can select the keyboard that you present to the 3174 along with some other options. There are some (not very good) pictures here which I am sure I have sent Al before:- https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ag4BJfE5B3onkY4iaoqmU2I_cRDOEw?e=cYzpxq As you can see its now really a pure Nokia product, so made in Finland. I have added dumping the ROMs to my "To Do" list... I was also told that the Cisco RFC also covers encapsulating Bisync but supporting that would be more work in Hercules. So a gateway might be a better approach. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via > cctalk > Sent: 11 January 2020 15:19 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Old Nokia/alfaskop 3270 terminal > > > > On 1/11/20 5:03 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > > They have 122-key PC style keyboards with a large plug. Not sure if they are > AT or XT style. A parallel printer port. Inside there is a M68000P12 CPU. > > If you ever pull it apart, i'd be interested in seeing pictures of the board(s), > what they used for a coax interface, and a dump of the firmware. > From peter.veprek at gmail.com Sat Jan 11 13:22:49 2020 From: peter.veprek at gmail.com (peter veprek) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 20:22:49 +0100 Subject: Anyone have any hardware docs on a Hyundai Super LT-3 80286 laptop? Message-ID: Hello, I've got a vintage Hyundai Super LT-3 80286 laptop, I just fixed the problem with CMOS battery but I'm unable to find any information about HDD settings. When I go to BIOS, there are 2 possible disk positions but I don't know which one to use and what settings I should choose. I'd like to ask you to let me know how to set this up. You also wrote in you post that you're goint to experiment with the switches which are right below the left bottom corner. If you got any news regarding these, I would appreciate it. Thank you in advance for your help. Regards, Peter Veprek From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Jan 11 14:56:12 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 20:56:12 -0000 Subject: Old Nokia/alfaskop 3270 terminal In-Reply-To: <17d21576-a823-e74e-6e2e-d939cb8c8211@bitsavers.org> References: <05e301d5c80b$7d21f2f0$7765d8d0$@gmail.com> <00f901d5c87f$861829f0$92487dd0$@gmail.com> <17d21576-a823-e74e-6e2e-d939cb8c8211@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <02a301d5c8c1$8effa6a0$acfef3e0$@gmail.com> Al, I added some more pictures to the folder. I have included some of the circuit board. I can't figure out what drives the co-ax. Next to dump the ROMS Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via > cctalk > Sent: 11 January 2020 15:19 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Old Nokia/alfaskop 3270 terminal > > > > On 1/11/20 5:03 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > > They have 122-key PC style keyboards with a large plug. Not sure if they are > AT or XT style. A parallel printer port. Inside there is a M68000P12 CPU. > > If you ever pull it apart, i'd be interested in seeing pictures of the board(s), > what they used for a coax interface, and a dump of the firmware. > From deramp5113 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 12 07:55:01 2020 From: deramp5113 at yahoo.com (Mike Douglas) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 07:55:01 -0600 Subject: SWTPC 6800 and Percom Floppy Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76FA2F7D-A668-4939-9989-8FFE578B57C0@yahoo.com> I?ve been able to complete the system running under the MiniDisk+ PROMs and added several programs like BASIC and an assembler to the disk. It all works together, but operations don?t integrate with each other very well. With much thanks to Bill Sudbrink, I also obtained the source to Percom?s MPX PROM so I was able to create a system running under MPX. Bill also had several of the programs (in S19 format) that would have been distributed with MPX, so I?ve got a pretty representative Percom MPX system up and running now. This setup, in turn, is pretty darn slick and well integrated for its day. It?s a lot like a Northstar DOS system, but a bootable disk is not required to get started since the OS is in PROM. Add the fact that the standard SWTPC configuration with MIKBUG or SWTBUG made it simple to get programs into RAM via the serial port (e.g., S19 records from papertape, cassette, or today - a PC) and it?s easy to build up a disk from scratch. I?d still like to flesh this system out a bit more, so if anyone has any Percom disks or software archived in any format on a PC, let me know, thanks! Mike > On Jan 7, 2020, at 6:44 PM, Mike Douglas wrote: > > ?I?m restoring a SWTPC 6800 that includes the Percom LFD-400 floppy controller. This controller goes on the SS-50 bus instead of the SS-30 bus where the SWTPC controllers installed. The standard Percom MiniDOS PROM is installed, and the other two PROM sockets have a third party extension called ?Minidisk+?. This was made by a company called Cer-Comp. These PROMs are instead of Percom?s own ?MiniDOS PlusX (MPX) PROM. > > I?ve got the system working, and I can use Minidisk+ to save and load files, but I know I?m missing some nuances of command parameters. I don?t have any sort of documentation for Minidisk+, so before I go figure it out by disassembling the PROMs, does anyone have any sort of documentation for Minidisk+ by Cer-Comp for the Percom LFD-400 floppy disk controller? > > Also, I?d like to burn the MPX PROM as an option. Does anyone have the MPX PROM or the source code for MiniDOS PlusX? > > Mike From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 12 15:10:09 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 21:10:09 -0000 Subject: Transformer Fault in a PSU? Message-ID: <001b01d5c98c$ac9380d0$05ba8270$@ntlworld.com> The PSU in my VAXmate failed recently and I think I have found a problem with one of the windings on the transformer not ringing when I test it with a ringing tester. The technical description of the VAXmate says that one winding is operated in flyback mode and I wonder if that has any bearing on the ringing test. Also, one of the pins appears not to be connected to anything else, so possibly a broken (melted?) wire. Can anyone help with the following questions: Does the fact that one winding is operated in flyback mode have any bearing on the ringing test? Can a transformer fail with a bad smell with no outward sign of damage? Can this transformer be replaced (see picture in blog)? - I suspect not unless I find a donor PSU. Where should I look for a possible cause of the transformer to fail (if indeed it has failed?). I have posted more details here: https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/01/12/possible-cause-of-vaxmate-h7270-ps u-failure/ Thanks Rob From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Jan 12 15:44:26 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 15:44:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: Transformer Fault in a PSU? In-Reply-To: <001b01d5c98c$ac9380d0$05ba8270$@ntlworld.com> References: <001b01d5c98c$ac9380d0$05ba8270$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <862169429.1445669.1578865466187@email.ionos.com> > On January 12, 2020 at 3:10 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > Can anyone help with the following questions: > I have some experience with similar stuff, but not a lot. I will give possible answers as I understand them below. Perhaps someone with more experience will come along later. > > Does the fact that one winding is operated in flyback mode have any bearingon the ringing test? It should not have any effect. A winding is a winding, regardless how it's hooked to whatever external circuit. Once removed, the external circuit doesn't matter. > Can a transformer fail with a bad smell with no outward sign of damage? Melted enamel insulation on a winding, shorting the winding, will cause some smell and a failed transformer without any outward sign. One of the main uses of a ringdown test is to find shorted turns, since they aren't otherwise observable. The internal resistance of the winding will be a tiny bit lower, but generally not enough to tell by measurement. A shorted winding causes it to NOT ring because all the energy gets used up quickly in the shorted winding (as heat.) > Can this transformer be replaced (see picture in blog)? - I suspect notunless I find a donor PSU. You may be able to rewind it. That would be an "fun" exercise. The transformer "may" be a standard part, but I doubt it. And what was sold as standard 20 or so years ago isn't likely to still be available new. The core, however, may still be available. But you already have a core. And, you would most likely need to disassemble the current one anyway to find out the number of turns per winding as well as the size of wire used. > Where should I look for a possible cause of the transformer to fail (ifindeed it has failed?). > > > I have posted more details here:https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/01/12/possible-cause-of-vaxmate-h7270-psu-failure/ > > > Thanks > > > Rob Hope this is at least some help. Sorry I can't give more definitive information. Will "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.org From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jan 12 15:49:09 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 15:49:09 -0600 Subject: Transformer Fault in a PSU? In-Reply-To: <001b01d5c98c$ac9380d0$05ba8270$@ntlworld.com> References: <001b01d5c98c$ac9380d0$05ba8270$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5E1B9455.8060502@pico-systems.com> On 01/12/2020 03:10 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > The PSU in my VAXmate failed recently and I think I have found a problem > with one of the windings on the transformer not ringing when I test it with > a ringing tester. The technical description of the VAXmate says that one > winding is operated in flyback mode and I wonder if that has any bearing on > the ringing test. Also, one of the pins appears not to be connected to > anything else, so possibly a broken (melted?) wire. > > The un-connected pin COULD be an electrostatic shield. If so, it would read like what you get. > > Can anyone help with the following questions: > > > > Does the fact that one winding is operated in flyback mode have any bearing > on the ringing test? > > Can a transformer fail with a bad smell with no outward sign of damage? Absolutely. But, are you sure the smell came from the transformer? Caps are notorious for being more unreliable. > Can this transformer be replaced (see picture in blog)? - I suspect not > unless I find a donor PSU. It is almost certainly a custom unit. It is remotely possible some similar power supply might use a close-enough transformer. Jon From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 12 16:45:01 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 22:45:01 -0000 Subject: Transformer Fault in a PSU? In-Reply-To: <5E1B9455.8060502@pico-systems.com> References: <001b01d5c98c$ac9380d0$05ba8270$@ntlworld.com> <5E1B9455.8060502@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <002701d5c999$edc297f0$c947c7d0$@ntlworld.com> > > Can a transformer fail with a bad smell with no outward sign of damage? > Absolutely. But, are you sure the smell came from the transformer? Caps are > notorious for being more unreliable. That was my first suspicion too, but I couldn't see anything that had obviously burned up and I still can't now. I didn't get the machine apart again after the failure soon enough to locate the smell unfortunately. > > Can this transformer be replaced (see picture in blog)? - I suspect > > not unless I find a donor PSU. > It is almost certainly a custom unit. It is remotely possible some similar power > supply might use a close-enough transformer. Yes, I think my chances are low to get it replaced. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 12 16:46:33 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 22:46:33 -0000 Subject: Transformer Fault in a PSU? In-Reply-To: <862169429.1445669.1578865466187@email.ionos.com> References: <001b01d5c98c$ac9380d0$05ba8270$@ntlworld.com> <862169429.1445669.1578865466187@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <002801d5c99a$23f3e270$6bdba750$@ntlworld.com> > You may be able to rewind it. That would be an "fun" exercise. The > transformer "may" be a standard part, but I doubt it. And what was sold as > standard 20 or so years ago isn't likely to still be available new. The core, > however, may still be available. But you already have a core. And, you would > most likely need to disassemble the current one anyway to find out the > number of turns per winding as well as the size of wire used. > Thanks for the suggestion. I have no idea how to do this, but if I get desperate it may be my only possible course of action. Regards Rob From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jan 12 19:18:36 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 19:18:36 -0600 Subject: Transformer Fault in a PSU? In-Reply-To: <002801d5c99a$23f3e270$6bdba750$@ntlworld.com> References: <001b01d5c98c$ac9380d0$05ba8270$@ntlworld.com> <862169429.1445669.1578865466187@email.ionos.com> <002801d5c99a$23f3e270$6bdba750$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5E1BC56C.4060703@pico-systems.com> On 01/12/2020 04:46 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >> You may be able to rewind it. That would be an "fun" exercise. The core halves may be epoxied together. In that case, it would be REAL hard to repair. It should be fairly easy to tell if the core can come apart or if it is now one piece. Jon From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sun Jan 12 22:34:05 2020 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 05:34:05 +0100 Subject: Transformer Fault in a PSU? In-Reply-To: <001b01d5c98c$ac9380d0$05ba8270$@ntlworld.com> References: <001b01d5c98c$ac9380d0$05ba8270$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <996ca2d1b086a308820212da7af795c3e826ba93.camel@agj.net> s?n 2020-01-12 klockan 21:10 +0000 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk: > The PSU in my VAXmate failed recently and I think I have found a > problem > with one of the windings on the transformer not ringing when I test > it with > a ringing tester. The technical description of the VAXmate says that > one > winding is operated in flyback mode and I wonder if that has any > bearing on > the ringing test. Also, one of the pins appears not to be connected > to > anything else, so possibly a broken (melted?) wire. > > > > Can anyone help with the following questions: The transformer is basically only intended to provide AC at a specific voltage while preventing surges and noise from the utility to create havoc. What voltage is it specified to provide ? If so, can it be replaced with maybe a new AC to AC device ? From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jan 12 22:48:53 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 22:48:53 -0600 Subject: Transformer Fault in a PSU? In-Reply-To: <996ca2d1b086a308820212da7af795c3e826ba93.camel@agj.net> References: <001b01d5c98c$ac9380d0$05ba8270$@ntlworld.com> <996ca2d1b086a308820212da7af795c3e826ba93.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <5E1BF6B5.4030105@pico-systems.com> On 01/12/2020 10:34 PM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: > s?n 2020-01-12 klockan 21:10 +0000 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk: >> The PSU in my VAXmate failed recently and I think I have found a >> problem >> with one of the windings on the transformer not ringing when I test >> it with >> a ringing tester. The technical description of the VAXmate says that >> one >> winding is operated in flyback mode and I wonder if that has any >> bearing on >> the ringing test. Also, one of the pins appears not to be connected >> to >> anything else, so possibly a broken (melted?) wire. >> >> >> >> Can anyone help with the following questions: > The transformer is basically only intended to provide AC at a specific > voltage while preventing surges and noise from the utility to create > havoc. > What voltage is it specified to provide ? If so, can it be replaced > with maybe a new AC to AC device ? > > The transformer Rod describes and provided schematic for is part of a switching power supply, and not a 50/60 Hz mains transformer. From the picture, it is almost certainly a ferrite core transformer running at 25+ KHz. Jon From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Sun Jan 12 17:09:40 2020 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 23:09:40 +0000 Subject: Transformer Fault in a PSU? In-Reply-To: <002801d5c99a$23f3e270$6bdba750$@ntlworld.com> References: <001b01d5c98c$ac9380d0$05ba8270$@ntlworld.com> <862169429.1445669.1578865466187@email.ionos.com>, <002801d5c99a$23f3e270$6bdba750$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Fyi..This site has a ps listed for sale. https://www.kunhardt-computer.de/kunden/kch/modul_a_l.htm I haven't worked with so can't vouch for them. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 12, 2020, at 14:46, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: You may be able to rewind it. That would be an "fun" exercise. The transformer "may" be a standard part, but I doubt it. And what was sold as standard 20 or so years ago isn't likely to still be available new. The core, however, may still be available. But you already have a core. And, you would most likely need to disassemble the current one anyway to find out the number of turns per winding as well as the size of wire used. Thanks for the suggestion. I have no idea how to do this, but if I get desperate it may be my only possible course of action. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 13 01:26:19 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 07:26:19 -0000 Subject: Transformer Fault in a PSU? In-Reply-To: <5E1BF6B5.4030105@pico-systems.com> References: <001b01d5c98c$ac9380d0$05ba8270$@ntlworld.com> <996ca2d1b086a308820212da7af795c3e826ba93.camel@agj.net> <5E1BF6B5.4030105@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <004e01d5c9e2$c074f560$415ee020$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jon Elson via > cctalk > Sent: 13 January 2020 04:49 > To: Stefan Skoglund ; General at ezwind.net; > Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Transformer Fault in a PSU? > > On 01/12/2020 10:34 PM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: > > s?n 2020-01-12 klockan 21:10 +0000 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk: > >> The PSU in my VAXmate failed recently and I think I have found a > >> problem with one of the windings on the transformer not ringing when > >> I test it with a ringing tester. The technical description of the > >> VAXmate says that one winding is operated in flyback mode and I > >> wonder if that has any bearing on the ringing test. Also, one of the > >> pins appears not to be connected to anything else, so possibly a > >> broken (melted?) wire. > >> > >> > >> > >> Can anyone help with the following questions: > > The transformer is basically only intended to provide AC at a specific > > voltage while preventing surges and noise from the utility to create > > havoc. > > What voltage is it specified to provide ? If so, can it be replaced > > with maybe a new AC to AC device ? > > > > > The transformer Rod describes and provided schematic for is > part of a switching power supply, > and not a 50/60 Hz mains transformer. From the picture, it > is almost certainly a ferrite core > transformer running at 25+ KHz. > According to the Technical Description the NE555 is arranged to oscillate at 100KHz, and I did indeed measure that frequency, when it oscillated. Regards Rob From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Jan 13 02:01:08 2020 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 09:01:08 +0100 Subject: Transformer Fault in a PSU? In-Reply-To: <001b01d5c98c$ac9380d0$05ba8270$@ntlworld.com> References: <001b01d5c98c$ac9380d0$05ba8270$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20200113080108.GB58517@beast.freibergnet.de> Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > The PSU in my VAXmate failed recently and I think I have found a problem > with one of the windings on the transformer not ringing when I test it with > a ringing tester. The technical description of the VAXmate says that one > winding is operated in flyback mode and I wonder if that has any bearing on > the ringing test. Also, one of the pins appears not to be connected to > anything else, so possibly a broken (melted?) wire. > > > > Can anyone help with the following questions: > > > > Does the fact that one winding is operated in flyback mode have any bearing > on the ringing test? > > Can a transformer fail with a bad smell with no outward sign of damage? > > Can this transformer be replaced (see picture in blog)? - I suspect not > unless I find a donor PSU. > > Where should I look for a possible cause of the transformer to fail (if > indeed it has failed?). > > > > I have posted more details here: > https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/01/12/possible-cause-of-vaxmate-h7270-ps > u-failure/ > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > The startup of the PSU is working as this: after switching on the mains, the voltage over C12 rises, thre is a startup Pulse generated with C14. After the Voltage reaches 8-12V the UC3842 is starting up, switching the Transistor. At this point the Voltage generated in P1, rectified with D6,D7 has to take over the supply for the UC3842 for the normal run. If that doesn't happen, the UC3842 gets out of Supply and stops. I don't think that your schematics are correct, specially around C12 and C14. A Ring test for an Transformer will pass or not, there are no windings where it would pass, when other not pass, since the windings are magetically coupled, so losses from shorts are coupled too. Connect the PSU with a light bulb of approx 60Watts in series to the mains (for 110V) 100-200W for 220V. This is functioning as an cold conductor (PTC) so that the PSU doesn't explodes when something goes wrong. Supply the UC3842 with 12Volts from an external source trough an diode (1N400x) (danger, life circuit!) and see what happens. (first switch on the mains, later the 12V) Mostly the fault is on the secondary side, bad rectifier diode or a bad cap. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From salikmrafiq at gmail.com Mon Jan 13 03:37:30 2020 From: salikmrafiq at gmail.com (Salik Rafiq) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 09:37:30 -0000 Subject: Hello All - new member in the UK In-Reply-To: <015714bda8b7b678d9b10309275cb837b6f254aa.camel@agj.net> References: <000401d5c497$15d4c8b0$417e5a10$@gmail.com> <555a0df2f092c1f6967be94316ea574e34a19822.camel@agj.net> <000101d5c7c4$5aa7ee10$0ff7ca30$@gmail.com> <004f01d5c98c$f873a2f0$e95ae8d0$@gmail.com> <015714bda8b7b678d9b10309275cb837b6f254aa.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <000001d5c9f5$13e71720$3bb54560$@gmail.com> I have sent the vendor of this item questions on ebay what you asked. It includes the keyboard x 2, mice x 2, CPU and monitor as well as those manuals. My offer was going to be ?350 = ?408 Vendor does not know which Solaris it is. So perhaps not familiar with Unix? It might be he inherited from a family member. Bit of a toy - only meant for a university project of mine which I did on a Sparcstation 2 to show my kids that Xbox was not the beginning of time with computers! LOL Thanks. Salik. -----Original Message----- From: Stefan Skoglund Sent: 13 January 2020 03:59 To: Salik Rafiq Subject: Re: Hello All - new member in the UK s?n 2020-01-12 klockan 21:12 +0000 skrev Salik Rafiq: > I have seen this one on eBay. > > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sparcstation-5/192930718968?hash=item2ceb91 > 24f8:g:VZ0AAOSwYbpc7EhK > > What do you think about the price. It seems to be booting and running > with Solaris. > > Salik. > Is it a plain SS5 (those two SS10s was upgraded a fair/very bit) ? Compared with them (the two SS10 in Germany) this one is slower, but it is in the UK and probably close to you and it isn't heavy so the whole system and the kbd will fit inside a bag so it's a nice but somewhat expensive amusement/reason (and a bit better than that) to sit on the train a few hours. It is SCA-2 equipped so it is a fair bit easier getting disks for it. Pitty, i wonder if the machine (SS5) has the builtin flex disk and the cd-rom ? The seller didn't include photo of the right side and no word about the CPU (or photos of the inside) but it boots ! Is the IDPROM replaced ??? The battery in the original one is probably toast so but less of a problem. Still that 5 is from 1995 or so and the SS10s 1993 or so but the CPUs (the machines in germany) is a little bit newer but 500 pound vs 400 euro ??? If i went and bough one of the machines in germany - the difference is so large that if i took 150 pound or so to pay for fuel, driving to them to pick up them and then home - that would even up (i'm about 9 hour by car from them.) How is the SS5 equipped (if it is a machine with internal floppy and cdrom) and with the fact that it is SCA-2 and it boots, well then it looks better. Stefan N S From j at ckrubin.us Mon Jan 13 10:46:18 2020 From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:46:18 +0000 Subject: Another old phart trying to clean out the house Message-ID: I'm in the process of "cleansing" before putting our house on the market in the near future. I've been eBaying lots of things over the last couple of years (thanks to all here who have been good customers!) and have more to sell, but also lots of "stuff" with little or no market value that could be useful to people who build/repair/tinker with the old machines that we value. If there is anyone in the greater Chicago area (or anywhere else) who'd like to drive over and take away anything from a carton to a carload of old stuff, from docs to chips, please let me know. No inventory list, no shipping - just a walk-through and carry out. In another two weeks (end of January), I'll be trashing most of it. Reply to me directly (off list) if you want to come by. Jack From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 13 12:49:06 2020 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 12:49:06 -0600 Subject: Another old phart trying to clean out the house In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200113185539.1F8D22740D@mx1.ezwind.net> At 10:46 AM 1/13/2020, you wrote: >If there is anyone in the greater Chicago area (or anywhere else) who'd like to drive over and take away anything from a carton to a carload of old stuff, from docs to chips, please let me know. No inventory list, no shipping - just a walk-through and carry out. OK no inventory list, but how about pictures of piles? And "greater Chicago" is a very large area. Where are you in slightly more specific terms? - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 13 13:04:32 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 14:04:32 -0500 Subject: Another old phart trying to clean out the house In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 11:46 AM Jack Rubin via cctalk wrote: > If there is anyone in the greater Chicago area (or anywhere else) who'd like to drive over and take away anything from a carton to a carload of old stuff, from docs to chips, please let me know. No inventory list, no shipping - just a walk-through and carry out. > > In another two weeks (end of January), I'll be trashing most of it. Unfortunately, I am 400 miles away and not going to be in the area until mid-February. -ethan From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Mon Jan 13 13:06:09 2020 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 14:06:09 -0500 Subject: Another old phart trying to clean out the house In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interested in pictures of piles! -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:04 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 11:46 AM Jack Rubin via cctalk > wrote: > > If there is anyone in the greater Chicago area (or anywhere else) who'd > like to drive over and take away anything from a carton to a carload of old > stuff, from docs to chips, please let me know. No inventory list, no > shipping - just a walk-through and carry out. > > > > In another two weeks (end of January), I'll be trashing most of it. > > Unfortunately, I am 400 miles away and not going to be in the area > until mid-February. > > -ethan > From alan at alanlee.org Mon Jan 13 14:54:19 2020 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 15:54:19 -0500 Subject: Another old phart trying to clean out the house In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06407d09cda91f23f522775e19315bec@alanlee.org> On 2020-01-13 11:46, Jack Rubin via cctalk wrote: > I'm in the process of "cleansing" before... > > Jack 1 Tbsp psyllium husks 1 Tbsp bentonite clay 1 Tbsp caproil 1 Cup water After consuming sludge, drink at least 8 oz water to push it through! You'll feel and look 20 again! It might even cure your collecting habits! Oh, what's that? Wrong cleanse? -Alan From matt at 9track.net Mon Jan 13 18:52:12 2020 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 00:52:12 +0000 Subject: pdp11 MicroPower/Pascal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05be2ee1-57cf-96dd-b815-febf1be0881f@9track.net> On 11/01/2020 04:45, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > Would anyone still have a copy of latest pdp11 MicroPower/Pascal? > I'm trying to have a retro programming contest / party at my house and > want to feature Pascal along with Macro-11 and maybe c on a real 11/23 > with RL02s under TSX. Hoping to hang like ten users at once on the > 'ol girl and make 'em really feel the speed. I might let up a little > and run the contest on my 11/73 with scsi if it's too terrible :) > > Anyway, looked around the net for hours and can't find a copy of > MicroPower/Pascal, so if anyone can help, I'd be grateful. > > > Found TSX-Plus, though! Big Thanks again to Lyle and whomever's > running the classiccmp site these days! > > --jake I don't know if it will help you with TSX, but here is MicroPower/Pascal for RSX BB-AK05E-BC? MP/P-RSX V2.3 BIN 16MT9? 1986 http://www.9track.net/bits/dec/pdp11/BB-AK05E-BC.zip BB-AK05G-BC? MP/P-RSX V2.5 BIN 16MT9? 1988 http://www.9track.net/bits/dec/pdp11/BB-AK05G-BC.zip Matt From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Mon Jan 13 22:37:54 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 22:37:54 -0600 Subject: Another old phart trying to clean out the house In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/13/2020 10:46 AM, Jack Rubin via cctalk wrote: > I'm in the process of "cleansing" before putting our house on the market in the near future. I've been eBaying lots of things over the last couple of years (thanks to all here who have been good customers!) and have more to sell, but also lots of "stuff" with little or no market value that could be useful to people who build/repair/tinker with the old machines that we value. > > If there is anyone in the greater Chicago area (or anywhere else) who'd like to drive over and take away anything from a carton to a carload of old stuff, from docs to chips, please let me know. No inventory list, no shipping - just a walk-through and carry out. > > In another two weeks (end of January), I'll be trashing most of it. > > Reply to me directly (off list) if you want to come by. > > Jack > I just last week fired up the PDP-11/53 I bought from you last April.? Works great!? I wish I wasn't down in Fort Worth or else I'd be over looking and probably aggravating my wife (What?? More junk??).? Actually she's pretty understanding.? ;) -- John H. Reinhardt From mark.tapley at swri.org Mon Jan 13 16:52:45 2020 From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 22:52:45 +0000 Subject: StyleWriters FTGH Message-ID: <5DF93525-FB7E-4098-A783-063ACE2DF79C@swri.edu> All, next thing to go from my pile is a set of Stylewriters. 2 ea. StyleWriter (1st generation) 2 ea. Color StyleWriter 1500 1 power supply for Stylewriter (condition very iffy) 1 power supply for Color StyleWriter 1500 (condition believed to be good) 1 spare circuit board (Stylewriter I believe, not certain) 3 spare ink cartridges (StyleWriter). Caveats: All printers believed to be operational when last stored. Some paper guides missing. I think I can plug in the CSW 1500?s and check power - on, at least. I *may* be able to plug in the SW?s and check power on, but I worry about that power supply (see below). I have not done any of the above, nor tried to plug a computer in to any of them, anytime this millennium. At least one ink cartridge I think has a short which breaks printers. All ink cartridges are likely bricks by now, having been stored (climate-controlled, but ?. ) for ~2 decades, so I?m pretty reluctant to try printing with any of them. The StyleWriter power supply was worked on by someone rather ham-fisted (CoughMeCough) and is somewhat the worse for wear - structural parts rattling around inside, etc. (Is there a good name for those things? *Way* too big to be a wall-wart - wall-growth? wall-turret? wall-obstacle?) All "Free to a Good Home", shipping from Texas, USA (Zip 78254) and I?ll split shipping costs with you (as before, I want space and I don?t want to add these to landfill). Partial orders filled in the order they come in. I have checked with Operator Headgap and tried to check with the Mac rescue place in Denver, not interested in the first place and no response in the second. Respond to (preferably) mtapley(at)swri.edu, or phone below. I?ll be travelling the next couple of days, but will try to get back to you ASAP. - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 14 11:24:42 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 09:24:42 -0800 Subject: anyone heard from Cindy Croxton? Message-ID: I tried sending an email about a week ago after noticing https://elecshopper.com/ was "down for maintenance" From abs at absd.org Tue Jan 14 11:47:03 2020 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:47:03 +0000 Subject: Anyone interested in ARCNET, Token Ring, FDDI, HIPPI, Strip network code? Message-ID: NetBSD still has code for various interesting^W older network protocols such as ARCNET, Token Ring, FDDI, HIPPI, and Strip. The code is quite old and the drivers are not MP safe, so its being proposed that the code be dropped, with the understanding that if anyone wanted to step forward to update any of the drivers that would also be fine. Just in case anyone has the right kit and some itchy coding fingers :-p https://mail-index.netbsd.org/tech-net/2020/01/date1.html David From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 14 13:34:00 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:34:00 -0800 Subject: Anyone interested in ARCNET, Token Ring, FDDI, HIPPI, Strip network code? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78f7bd62-add5-314f-57d5-8ea2ab2e3204@bitsavers.org> On 1/14/20 9:47 AM, David Brownlee via cctalk wrote: > The code is quite old and the drivers are not MP safe, so its being > proposed that the code be dropped Goose step to the monocuture netBSD, we USED to run on everything.. From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Tue Jan 14 20:59:46 2020 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 21:59:46 -0500 Subject: anyone heard from Cindy Croxton? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cindy was last on the keyboard forum on January 10, 2020. She posted something in December stating "Lots of things happening here, and I will not be reopening the store until after the first of the new year. Many thanks to everyone for your help and support over the past several years. Cindy (elecplus) (elecshopper.com) " I think she's okay just busy but I haven't spoken to her personally for the last couple of months. Santo On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 9:53 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I tried sending an email about a week ago after noticing > https://elecshopper.com/ > was "down for maintenance" > > From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Jan 14 21:50:08 2020 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 03:50:08 +0000 Subject: Anyone interested in ARCNET, Token Ring, FDDI, HIPPI, Strip network code? In-Reply-To: <78f7bd62-add5-314f-57d5-8ea2ab2e3204@bitsavers.org> References: <78f7bd62-add5-314f-57d5-8ea2ab2e3204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20200115035006.GA7711@lonesome.com> On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 11:34:00AM -0800, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Goose step to the monoculture Apparently you don't understand that "maintaining software requires effort". If you want to make changes to e.g. a kernel then there are things that have to get changed to keep in sync. Someone (TM) has to do the work. And if you *don't* make changes to your kernel, then you fall behind on: performance, running on newer systems (think ACPI, EFI), multi-core, NUMA, and so on and so forth. You simply become irrelevant for anything that people can *actually buy new*. IIUC the NetBSD folks are as understaffed as the FreeBSD folks are in terms of keeping "the union of all things that ever ran" working. FreeBSD has abandoned its old slogan because it was deemed too rude, but in this case, let's bring it back for a moment: "Shut up and code". (yes, you have hit a nerve.) mcl From abs at absd.org Wed Jan 15 05:09:41 2020 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 11:09:41 +0000 Subject: Anyone interested in ARCNET, Token Ring, FDDI, HIPPI, Strip network code? In-Reply-To: <78f7bd62-add5-314f-57d5-8ea2ab2e3204@bitsavers.org> References: <78f7bd62-add5-314f-57d5-8ea2ab2e3204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 at 19:34, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/14/20 9:47 AM, David Brownlee via cctalk wrote: > > > The code is quite old and the drivers are not MP safe, so its being > > proposed that the code be dropped > > Goose step to the monocuture > > netBSD, we USED to run on everything.. A monoculture in this context would be for everyone to switch to Linux :) Older versions of NetBSD are not going away, but in the interest of there being something other than *just* older versions, people continue to develop. To effectively run on current hardware it needs to be able to use multiple processors, including NUMA and big/little topologies. So it comes down to remaining portable only for a wide set of older hardware, including some combinations for which literally no users exist, or balancing older hardware with new. A good example of the latter is a current thread on how to get jemalloc to work correctly across the various m68k platforms which have different page sizes, without switching to a dynamic page size and the concurrent overhead, plus recent changes to the audio mixer subsystem to ensure it is fast enough to play on those same m68k systems. I like being able to run NetBSD on my work laptop, run xen (likely to switch to nvmm soon) to virtualise a bunch of Linux test boxes for work, and use ZFS on my home server, with syncthing for data redundancy to multiple remote locations. Losing that ability to rely on it day to day in order to keep support for older hardware for which no-one has stood up and offered to write code or even test changes... seems a bad trade. On that final point - on the NetBSD list it appears that several people have spoken up regarding an interest to keep using ARCNET on NetBSD, in some cases they just have hardware and a willingness to test, which is the difference between "we need to update the code, but have no users", and "someone finds this useful" NetBSD is pretty reluctant to drop actual hardware platforms - to my recollection it has effectively dropped three - da30, a custom wire wrap board of which possibly only one ever existed, - pc532, a home-brew NS32532 board which was dropped when gcc dropped processor support - acorn26, the original 26bit address space ARM2 based machines We live in an imperfect world, but NetBSD is pretty much the only *nix still actively trying to keep a modern OS running on older hardware, and they're doing it by focussing on machine independent subsystems and drivers rather than "fork another copy and hack for each case". Thanks David From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jan 15 08:28:36 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (sales at elecplus.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 08:28:36 -0600 Subject: anyone heard from Cindy Croxton? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5aa432d65969f34b029d9567e9e260f2@elecplus.com> On 2020-01-14 11:24, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I tried sending an email about a week ago after noticing > https://elecshopper.com/ > was "down for maintenance" This has been a bad 3 months (health-wise) for my family. I should be back in the office next week. Cindy From 821 at 128.ca Wed Jan 15 08:42:03 2020 From: 821 at 128.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:42:03 +0000 Subject: anyone heard from Cindy Croxton? In-Reply-To: <5aa432d65969f34b029d9567e9e260f2@elecplus.com> References: <5aa432d65969f34b029d9567e9e260f2@elecplus.com> Message-ID: Dear Cindy Hope you and your family get better and stronger in the coming months.. Best Wishes ?On 15/1/2020, 10:28 PM, "cctalk on behalf of sales--- via cctalk" wrote: On 2020-01-14 11:24, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I tried sending an email about a week ago after noticing > https://elecshopper.com/ > was "down for maintenance" This has been a bad 3 months (health-wise) for my family. I should be back in the office next week. Cindy From mechanic_2 at charter.net Wed Jan 15 13:51:11 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:51:11 -0600 Subject: anyone heard from Cindy Croxton? In-Reply-To: <5aa432d65969f34b029d9567e9e260f2@elecplus.com> References: <5aa432d65969f34b029d9567e9e260f2@elecplus.com> Message-ID: <5E1F6D2F.6060401@charter.net> Cindy, I am sorry to hear about your difficulties. I will hold you and yours in my prayers. GOD Bless, rich! On 1/15/2020 8:28 AM, sales--- via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-01-14 11:24, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> I tried sending an email about a week ago after noticing >> https://elecshopper.com/ >> was "down for maintenance" > > This has been a bad 3 months (health-wise) for my family. I should be > back in the office next week. > > Cindy > From pye at mactec.com.au Wed Jan 15 18:02:38 2020 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 10:02:38 +1000 Subject: VTech Laser 3000 / Dick Smith CAT composite video pinout Message-ID: <172353D9-867F-49F3-AF05-D20F78B7613E@mactec.com.au> Hi all. I know I could scope this out, but just wondering if anyone has the pinout for the VTech Laser 3000 / Dick Smith CAT (in Australia) composite video pinout. It?s not in the technical manual that I have, and can?t find it online. Thanks, Chris From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jan 15 19:19:50 2020 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 01:19:50 +0000 Subject: anyone heard from Cindy Croxton? In-Reply-To: <5aa432d65969f34b029d9567e9e260f2@elecplus.com> References: <5aa432d65969f34b029d9567e9e260f2@elecplus.com> Message-ID: <20200116011949.GA2197@lonesome.com> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 08:28:36AM -0600, sales--- via cctalk wrote: > This has been a bad 3 months (health-wise) for my family. Best wishes. Let me know if someone from Austin can come be of help. mcl From wdegroot at ptd.net Wed Jan 15 15:59:03 2020 From: wdegroot at ptd.net (wdegroot) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:59:03 -0500 Subject: formatting and checking floppy disks for bad sectors Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20200115165334.01163780@promail.ptd.net> i read / viewes a video on ormattinf a floppy with trk 0 bad i attempted to download the suggested utility bt it returned " filenot foiud: if there is sich a util, can you sedn me the file? it is annoying to have a kiooyt go bad te next tie it is used. sometimes in minutes. i am generaly working wit oder stuss on ss retirement. From kevenm at 3kranger.com Wed Jan 15 18:03:17 2020 From: kevenm at 3kranger.com (Keven Miller(3k)) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:03:17 -0800 Subject: Softhome.net References: <20200110175714.GA16796@t470p.stackframe.org> Message-ID: <1AF7D17A9C63491D9CD31834F97C2D7A@ranger1> I've been a happy user of a couple email addresses at softhome.net. Recently, one has now failed to let us connect. Sending mail to it from the other gives a mailbox full delivery error. We've tried email to info at softhome.net and support at softhome.net. No response yet on the info one. But I just got a delivery failure on the support one. Does any one have contact info for softhome or can pass the word along? We would really like to empty the one email that won't let us in. Thanks, Keven Miller From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 16 00:12:25 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:12:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: formatting and checking floppy disks for bad sectors In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20200115165334.01163780@promail.ptd.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20200115165334.01163780@promail.ptd.net> Message-ID: WHAT DISK FORMAT? Try bulk erasing your disks before you format them, because if you are reformatting a used disk, the content in the boot sector could confuse the operating system. For PC-DOS, if track 0 is actually bad, then the disk can not be properly used for DOS. It should be destroyed, or used on an operating system that does not need track 0. (many CP/M systems use track 0 as a system track, but don't need it for a data disk) In some versions of DOS, there can be erroneous error messages about track 0 being bad, due to DOS not properly handling attempt to DMA straddling a 64K boundary. If you get the message on all disks, then look at you CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT files, and add or remove a TSR or device driver, so that the TPA (Transient Program Area) will be in a different place. You have not told us which operating system, size and type of diskette, name of the "utility" that you are looking for, What is a "kiooyt"? On Wed, 15 Jan 2020, wdegroot via cctalk wrote: > i read / viewes a video on ormattinf a floppy with trk 0 bad > > i attempted to download the suggested utility > bt it returned " filenot foiud: > > if there is sich a util, can you sedn me the file? > > it is annoying to have a kiooyt go bad te next tie it is used. > sometimes in minutes. > > i am generaly working wit oder stuss on ss retirement. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jan 16 07:02:31 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 08:02:31 -0500 Subject: Softhome.net In-Reply-To: <1AF7D17A9C63491D9CD31834F97C2D7A@ranger1> References: <20200110175714.GA16796@t470p.stackframe.org> <1AF7D17A9C63491D9CD31834F97C2D7A@ranger1> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 1:10 AM Keven Miller(3k) via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I've been a happy user of a couple email addresses at softhome.net. > Recently, one has now failed to let us connect. > Sending mail to it from the other gives a mailbox full delivery error. > > We've tried email to info at softhome.net and support at softhome.net. > No response yet on the info one. > But I just got a delivery failure on the support one. > > Does any one have contact info for softhome or can pass the word along? > We would really like to empty the one email that won't let us in. > > Thanks, > Keven Miller > > > Kevin, If this is webmail, check your trash folder and delete all of the files from it, then try sending emails to the inbox again. We have users with full mailboxes because they never clear their trash folders. See if that helps. Bill Degnan From ryan at diskfutility.com Thu Jan 16 20:46:32 2020 From: ryan at diskfutility.com (Ryan Eisworth) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 20:46:32 -0600 Subject: Scientific Data Systems Cards Message-ID: Greetings all, I have a contact that has unearth a massive cache of Scientific Data Systems modules like the one pictured here in the Houston area: If anyone has a need for these modules or can identify based on that photo which SDS mainframe let me know and I'll put you in touch with the owner. Best, Ryan From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jan 16 22:30:57 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 22:30:57 -0600 Subject: Scientific Data Systems Cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5E213881.8070609@pico-systems.com> On 01/16/2020 08:46 PM, Ryan Eisworth via cctalk wrote: > Greetings all, > > I have a contact that has unearth a massive cache of Scientific Data Systems modules like the one pictured here in the Houston area: > > If anyone has a need for these modules or can identify based on that photo which SDS mainframe let me know and I'll put you in touch with the owner. > > Wow, this is seriously old stuff, discrete transistors. Elco Varilock connectors. That would date it to mid 1960's, I'd think. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 16 22:42:18 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 20:42:18 -0800 Subject: Scientific Data Systems Cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26a0b430-8f16-fa63-3eef-06e7cab03c2e@bitsavers.org> On 1/16/20 6:46 PM, Ryan Eisworth via cctalk wrote: > Greetings all, > > I have a contact that has unearth a massive cache of Scientific Data Systems modules like the one pictured here in the Houston area: > > If anyone has a need for these modules or can identify based on that photo which SDS mainframe let me know and I'll put you in touch with the owner. > > Best, > Ryan > they are for the 900 series module catalog on bitsavers From luigi30 at gmail.com Thu Jan 16 22:14:43 2020 From: luigi30 at gmail.com (Katherine Rohl) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 22:14:43 -0600 Subject: Another old phart trying to clean out the house Message-ID: <352287F6-C6AE-48BC-AA42-6DB07AA6F069@gmail.com> I?m a collector in the Chicago area. Whereabouts are you located? I can rope up a car to grab some stuff. Got any pictures of the piles? Sent from my iPhone From cctalk at harlie.org Fri Jan 17 02:11:03 2020 From: cctalk at harlie.org (William Maddox on CCTalk) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 00:11:03 -0800 Subject: Interesting device on eBay -- CDC clock generator? Message-ID: <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> The seller thinks this may be a drum memory, but it is clearly not. My guess is that it is some kind of clock generator. Anyone recognize this? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Mainframe-Computer-Part-Drum-Memory-Control-Data/312942951497 From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Jan 17 02:36:37 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 00:36:37 -0800 Subject: Interesting device on eBay -- CDC clock generator? In-Reply-To: <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> References: <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> Message-ID: <186b1a3e-4385-04bd-eddb-28615025ca8e@jwsss.com> On 1/17/2020 12:11 AM, William Maddox on CCTalk via cctalk wrote: > The seller thinks this may be a drum memory, but it is clearly not.?? > My guess is that it is some kind of clock generator.? Anyone recognize > this? > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Mainframe-Computer-Part-Drum-Memory-Control-Data/312942951497 > > This board from the same vendor has a test point marked DISCH on it, maybe part of same subsystem if the guy is repeating info that is close to accurate. Vintage-CONTROL-DATA-Computer-Module-PCB-196Os/ https://www.ebay.com/itm/283730399441 of course the seller admits to no idea what he has, so who know about this and the other two "Univac" boards he has. Interesting though. thanks Jim From useddec at gmail.com Fri Jan 17 03:23:36 2020 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 03:23:36 -0600 Subject: Interesting device on eBay -- CDC clock generator? In-Reply-To: <186b1a3e-4385-04bd-eddb-28615025ca8e@jwsss.com> References: <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <186b1a3e-4385-04bd-eddb-28615025ca8e@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I have several TEK boards like these. I thought they were delay lines to keep signals in sync. I had a friend tell me what he thought they were, but I'll have to call him to refresh me feeble memory. On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 2:36 AM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 1/17/2020 12:11 AM, William Maddox on CCTalk via cctalk wrote: > > The seller thinks this may be a drum memory, but it is clearly not. > > My guess is that it is some kind of clock generator. Anyone recognize > > this? > > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Mainframe-Computer-Part-Drum-Memory-Control-Data/312942951497 > > > > > This board from the same vendor has a test point marked DISCH on it, > maybe part of same subsystem if the guy is repeating info that is close > to accurate. > > Vintage-CONTROL-DATA-Computer-Module-PCB-196Os/ > < > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-CONTROL-DATA-Computer-Module-PCB-196Os/283730399441 > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/283730399441 > < > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-CONTROL-DATA-Computer-Module-PCB-196Os/283730399441 > > > > of course the seller admits to no idea what he has, so who know about > this and the other two "Univac" boards he has. > > Interesting though. > thanks > Jim > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Jan 17 04:22:23 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 02:22:23 -0800 Subject: Interesting device on eBay -- CDC clock generator? In-Reply-To: <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> References: <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> Message-ID: On 2020-Jan-17, at 12:11 AM, William Maddox on CCTalk via cctalk wrote: > The seller thinks this may be a drum memory, but it is clearly not. My guess is that it is some kind of clock generator. Anyone recognize this? > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Mainframe-Computer-Part-Drum-Memory-Control-Data/312942951497 The circumferential wire bundles feed two-stage transistor amplifiers that drive toward the center, then drop down to the interior board through inductors and then feed back toward the circumference near the coax connectors. It looks like one of the coax connectors (J26) is out of regular angular displacement from the others. I'm wondering if it could be some sort of rotating / multi-phase modulator. An RF carrier injected on the odd-one-out coax connector, modulated or switched in a rotating sequence via the circle of drivers, out to the circle of coax connectors. Sheer guess as I've never seen one, but perhaps for a VOR station, to set up the (electronically-generated) rotating beacon, the coax connectors would feed out to RF amps and a circle of antenna segments. It looks a little too engineered to be for a lab experiment. Date codes 1980-1982. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 25 05:50:05 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 03:50:05 -0800 Subject: from Discord Message-ID: <0956374e-a073-6dbf-4f9a-0e6af29e1bfe@bitsavers.org> 9:10 PM jwest and now the image of the classiccmp mailing list server should be back to where it was the day of the failure. As per above, no data lost except a handfull asking if the server was up. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jan 25 10:48:44 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:48:44 -0600 Subject: test test Message-ID: <000601d5d39f$549465d0$fdbd3170$@classiccmp.org> test From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 25 11:52:40 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 11:52:40 -0600 Subject: test test In-Reply-To: <000601d5d39f$549465d0$fdbd3170$@classiccmp.org> References: <000601d5d39f$549465d0$fdbd3170$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5E2C8068.5040107@pico-systems.com> On 01/25/2020 10:48 AM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > test > > Glad to see you got it back running! Thanks, Jon From rtomek at ceti.pl Sat Jan 25 12:19:46 2020 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 19:19:46 +0100 Subject: from Discord In-Reply-To: <0956374e-a073-6dbf-4f9a-0e6af29e1bfe@bitsavers.org> References: <0956374e-a073-6dbf-4f9a-0e6af29e1bfe@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20200125181946.GA31416@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 03:50:05AM -0800, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > 9:10 PM jwest > > and now the image of the classiccmp mailing list server should be > back to where it was the day of the failure. > As per above, no data lost except a handfull asking if the server > was up. Many thanks... -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 25 13:57:15 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 13:57:15 -0600 Subject: recovering data from old hard drive In-Reply-To: <5E24DC56.8070602@pico-systems.com> References: <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <3.0.6.32.20200117230419.016e6c10@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5E24DC56.8070602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5E2C9D9B.4060703@pico-systems.com> I have dug out an old SCSI hard drive from 1997 that may have some interesting stuff, most especially the source code for the SGI Iris flight sim demo. I have a Linux system with an Adaptec 2940 (aic7880) that has two connectors on it. It SEEMS from some probing that the 50-pin IDC connector on the top of the board is single-ended SCSI (it seems to have mostly grounds on one row of pins). Same for the drive, which is a Quantum ProDrive LPS. The drive spins up and does some seeking right after power-on, so it sounds like it is working. But, I can't seem to find that the drive is being recognized by the aic7xxx driver. So, looking at /proc/scsi/aic7xxx/## I see the device addresses all show just the negotiation settings, and /proc/scsi/scsi just shows my SATA devices but not the real SCSI ones. I have the right cable to plug my old HP scanner into the mounting plate Honda connector, and it shows up fine. I could try getting a Honda to IDC-50 cable, but I thought the IDC50 connector on the board edge OUGHT to work. Does anybody have any suggestions on what to try? Thanks, Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 25 14:34:12 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 12:34:12 -0800 Subject: recovering data from old hard drive In-Reply-To: <5E2C9D9B.4060703@pico-systems.com> References: <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <3.0.6.32.20200117230419.016e6c10@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5E24DC56.8070602@pico-systems.com> <5E2C9D9B.4060703@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1d5e2097-9d41-2e37-6102-84a510959a95@bitsavers.org> On 1/25/20 11:57 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Does anybody have any suggestions on what to try? not really, beyond checking termination. you should see the select light flash during boot if the OS can see it at all From steven at malikoff.com Sat Jan 25 19:46:16 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 11:46:16 +1000 Subject: Unidentified peripheral in Tektronix PDP-11/20 system Message-ID: I was idly browsing some old electronics magazines on archive.org and saw this Tektronix testing system from 1972 that clearly has an 11/20 and TU-56. Just curious as to what the piece of gear is sandwiched between the two. It sort of looks like a paper tape reader, but for the two white buttons or whatever they are at the lower right and the white bit at top right. It seems to be in a DEC bezel(?) It doesn't seem to match the bespoke Tek gear at right which looks quite different. I'm guessing it really is just a paper tape reader. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/Tektronix_S-3260_automated_test_system_PDP-11_20_Electronic_Design_23Nov1972_reduced.png Thanks in advance. Steve From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jan 25 19:59:55 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 19:59:55 -0600 Subject: Unidentified peripheral in Tektronix PDP-11/20 system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d5d3ec$4e8bb920$eba32b60$@classiccmp.org> Looks like some type of chart recorder perhaps. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Jan 26 04:43:52 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 02:43:52 -0800 Subject: Unidentified peripheral in Tektronix PDP-11/20 system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <386d8879-25df-7813-a1ca-9e071dce3419@jwsss.com> They demoed a system with an exotic sampling system similar to that in that time frame at the university I went to. Jon Elson may recall it.? Might have been as late as 73. It had a dual ended CRT with what was essentially a high speed scope shooting a silicon charged target from one side. On the other side once a scan was made on the silicon target, which was about the size of a scope tube display, the other side would scan in a manner similar to how the printing process worked with the storage tube terminals or displays, and the trace was either printed or digitized.? The 11s were used for analysis software. I just sold a Tektronix 11/34 last fall that was pulled from a much later system, which was the computing element they supplied with elaborate testing systems. The systems for the most part are all scrap but for the cabinet with the 11/34.? A friend I know bought the 11/34 for me, an passed on the analog crap in 4 other bays.? Most of it? is junk as they were custom systems, with little trace of the operational software, and it wasn't generic. thanks Jim On 1/25/2020 5:46 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > I was idly browsing some old electronics magazines on archive.org and saw this > Tektronix testing system from 1972 that clearly has an 11/20 and TU-56. Just curious > as to what the piece of gear is sandwiched between the two. It sort of looks like a > paper tape reader, but for the two white buttons or whatever they are at the lower right > and the white bit at top right. > It seems to be in a DEC bezel(?) It doesn't seem to match the bespoke Tek gear at right > which looks quite different. I'm guessing it really is just a paper tape reader. > > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/Tektronix_S-3260_automated_test_system_PDP-11_20_Electronic_Design_23Nov1972_reduced.png > > Thanks in advance. > > Steve > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Jan 25 22:24:22 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 22:24:22 -0600 Subject: Unidentified peripheral in Tektronix PDP-11/20 system In-Reply-To: <000001d5d3ec$4e8bb920$eba32b60$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d5d3ec$4e8bb920$eba32b60$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: could be what was used to make the weather maps that would then get sent out on tty of the wind? On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 8:08 PM jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > Looks like some type of chart recorder perhaps. > > > > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Jan 25 22:16:19 2020 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 20:16:19 -0800 Subject: Unidentified peripheral in Tektronix PDP-11/20 system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1bcdb60f-ff6c-152f-41c6-3ac90f97f12a@sbcglobal.net> On 1/25/2020 5:46 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > I was idly browsing some old electronics magazines on archive.org and saw this > Tektronix testing system from 1972 that clearly has an 11/20 and TU-56. Just curious > as to what the piece of gear is sandwiched between the two. It sort of looks like a > paper tape reader, but for the two white buttons or whatever they are at the lower right > and the white bit at top right. > It seems to be in a DEC bezel(?) It doesn't seem to match the bespoke Tek gear at right > which looks quite different. I'm guessing it really is just a paper tape reader. > > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/Tektronix_S-3260_automated_test_system_PDP-11_20_Electronic_Design_23Nov1972_reduced.png > > Thanks in advance. > > Steve > The top right unit is a Tektronix branded Remex paper tape reader/punch, I have one. The system is supposed to have a disk drive, possibly the middle unit is part of one? Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From pietstan15 at gmail.com Sat Jan 25 20:42:57 2020 From: pietstan15 at gmail.com (stan) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 21:42:57 -0500 Subject: recovering data from old hard drive In-Reply-To: <5E2C9D9B.4060703@pico-systems.com> References: <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <3.0.6.32.20200117230419.016e6c10@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5E24DC56.8070602@pico-systems.com> <5E2C9D9B.4060703@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <558ea54e-64e6-d069-628e-bbf88437302b@gmail.com> On 2020-01-25 2:57 p.m., Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > I have dug out an old SCSI hard drive from 1997 that may have some > interesting stuff, most especially the source > code for the SGI Iris flight sim demo.? I have a Linux system with an > Adaptec 2940 (aic7880) that has two > connectors on it.? It SEEMS from some probing that the 50-pin IDC > connector on the top of the board is > single-ended SCSI (it seems to have mostly grounds on one row of pins). > Same for the drive, which is a Quantum > ProDrive LPS.? The drive spins up and does some seeking right after > power-on, so it sounds like it is > working.? But, I can't seem to find that the drive is being recognized > by the aic7xxx driver. > So, looking at /proc/scsi/aic7xxx/## I see the device addresses all show > just the negotiation settings, > and /proc/scsi/scsi just shows my SATA devices but not the real SCSI ones. > > I have the right cable to plug my old HP scanner into the mounting plate > Honda connector, and it shows up > fine.? I could try getting a Honda to IDC-50 cable, but I thought the > IDC50 connector on the board edge OUGHT to > work. > > Does anybody have any suggestions on what to try? > > Thanks, > > Jon > The Adaptec SCSI cards have a firmware diagnostic utility on them as well. IIRC, a keypress at the appropriate time during boot-up of the peecee will start the utility, which allows for setting controller options as well as running some drive tests or a low-leevel format. Stan From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sun Jan 26 09:20:09 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 10:20:09 -0500 Subject: Unidentified peripheral in Tektronix PDP-11/20 system In-Reply-To: <1bcdb60f-ff6c-152f-41c6-3ac90f97f12a@sbcglobal.net> References: <1bcdb60f-ff6c-152f-41c6-3ac90f97f12a@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Link to paragraph or two in a book citing the 3260 as a test system for military requirements related to commercial devices. https://books.google.com/books?id=-68mFnWum5kC&pg=PA1051&lpg=PA1051&dq=Tektronix+S-3260+test+system&source=bl&ots=sECJVSCho6&sig=ACfU3U3FsOjOoD-69ct0Vrz9E8ttRz5Jiw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiw0enix6HnAhUzhHIEHYUiB1MQ6AEwAHoECBQQAQ#v=onepage&q=Tektronix%20S-3260%20test%20system&f=false On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 7:48 AM Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/25/2020 5:46 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > I was idly browsing some old electronics magazines on archive.org and saw this > > Tektronix testing system from 1972 that clearly has an 11/20 and TU-56. Just curious > > as to what the piece of gear is sandwiched between the two. It sort of looks like a > > paper tape reader, but for the two white buttons or whatever they are at the lower right > > and the white bit at top right. > > It seems to be in a DEC bezel(?) It doesn't seem to match the bespoke Tek gear at right > > which looks quite different. I'm guessing it really is just a paper tape reader. > > > > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/Tektronix_S-3260_automated_test_system_PDP-11_20_Electronic_Design_23Nov1972_reduced.png > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Steve > > > > The top right unit is a Tektronix branded Remex paper tape reader/punch, > I have one. > The system is supposed to have a disk drive, possibly the middle unit is > part of one? > > Bob > > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org > From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jan 26 11:09:34 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 11:09:34 -0600 Subject: Unidentified peripheral in Tektronix PDP-11/20 system In-Reply-To: <386d8879-25df-7813-a1ca-9e071dce3419@jwsss.com> References: <386d8879-25df-7813-a1ca-9e071dce3419@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5E2DC7CE.1000902@pico-systems.com> On 01/26/2020 04:43 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > They demoed a system with an exotic sampling system > similar to that in that time frame at the university I > went to. > > Jon Elson may recall it. Might have been as late as 73. > > It had a dual ended CRT with what was essentially a high > speed scope shooting a silicon charged target from one side. > Tek sold several storage oscilloscopes that used an image conversion scheme. One type had a microchannel plate with the traditional scope electronics on one side and an NTSC video scanning tube on the other side. So, you could take a single-shot event, store on the microchannel, and then display on a black and white TV monitor for an amazingly long time. It took like 10+ minutes for the image to degrade. I think it was later they made an electron beam digitizer storage scope. The scope tube created a fan beam that was deflected by single-axis deflection plates. The target had patterns of stripes that decoded the beam into a binary code that was then recorded in a digital memory. So, the fan beam of electrons and the target formed the ADC! Jon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 26 11:15:50 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 12:15:50 -0500 Subject: Unidentified peripheral in Tektronix PDP-11/20 system In-Reply-To: <5E2DC7CE.1000902@pico-systems.com> References: <386d8879-25df-7813-a1ca-9e071dce3419@jwsss.com> <5E2DC7CE.1000902@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > I think it was later they made an electron beam digitizer > storage scope. The scope tube created a fan beam that was > deflected by single-axis deflection plates. The target had > patterns of stripes that decoded the beam into a binary code > that was then recorded in a digital memory. So, the fan > beam of electrons and the target formed the ADC! That family of tubes is called an electron bombardment semiconductor. The target is actually a semiconductor wafer with an array of diodes to sense the position of the deflected swept beam, arranged in a Gray code. I did a video on one of the tubes sometime ago on my Youtube channel "uniservo". -- Will From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 26 13:08:13 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 14:08:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: KE11-A stuff Message-ID: <20200126190813.368C618C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I've decided to try and build up a KE11-A Extended Arithmetic Element. I have most of the boards (although I*m missing a M234 Register dual-width board, if anyone has one). The main thing I'm missing at this point is a backplane. I do have a BB11 (which came out of an old piece of data acquisition gear, or something like that) which I can wire up, but before I start on that I figured I'd ask and see if anyone has one they would be willing to part with. (Hah-hah!) If not, if someone does have one, even if you want to hang onto it, I'd really appreciate good photos of the pin side of the backplane, so I have a more detailed idea (than just the prints) on how the wiring goes. And speaking of the prints, although there are a scanned set online, they are pretty low-res, and some parts (e.g. the wire list, which was typical line printer output) are hard to read as a result. So a new scan would be really, really appreciated. Thanks (I hope)! Noel From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jan 26 13:13:18 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 12:13:18 -0700 Subject: recovering data from old hard drive In-Reply-To: <5E2C9D9B.4060703@pico-systems.com> References: <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <3.0.6.32.20200117230419.016e6c10@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5E24DC56.8070602@pico-systems.com> <5E2C9D9B.4060703@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 1/25/20 12:57 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > I have dug out an old SCSI hard drive from 1997 that may have some > interesting stuff, most especially the source code for the SGI Iris > flight sim demo. I have a Linux system with an Adaptec 2940 (aic7880) > that has two connectors on it. It SEEMS from some probing that the > 50-pin IDC connector on the top of the board is single-ended SCSI > (it seems to have mostly grounds on one row of pins). Same for the > drive, which is a Quantum ProDrive LPS. The drive spins up and does > some seeking right after power-on, so it sounds like it is working. > But, I can't seem to find that the drive is being recognized by the > aic7xxx driver. So, looking at /proc/scsi/aic7xxx/## I see the device > addresses all show just the negotiation settings, and /proc/scsi/scsi > just shows my SATA devices but not the real SCSI ones. I believe Adaptec 2940s were all Single Ended. I /think/ the differential cards that they made had a different number. Go into the cards BIOS (firmware?) and poke around. Does the card see the drive? Also, check the termination. Check the bus topology. Different 2940s had different numbers of buses, one of which usually connects to the external connector. > I have the right cable to plug my old HP scanner into the mounting > plate Honda connector, and it shows up fine. I could try getting a > Honda to IDC-50 cable, but I thought the IDC50 connector on the board > edge OUGHT to work. Termination is the most frequent problem. > Does anybody have any suggestions on what to try? (See above.) -- Grant. . . . unix || die -- Grant. . . . unix || die From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Jan 26 13:58:48 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 20:58:48 +0100 Subject: IBM BSC CRC? Message-ID: Hello IBM BSC Experts! I am trying to figure out the CRC algorithm used by IBM BSC. I have tried a lot of different settings in crcreveng but not getting a match. I am pretty convinced that the CRC-16 used by IBM was 16 15 2 x + x + x + 1 This would give the polynomial 8005. Anyone against this statement? But what was the initial value? I have two actual messages from equipment employing IBM BSC: 32016CD90240404070032688 and 32016CD90240C84050030D28 >From this document ( http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/datacomm/GA27-3004-2_General_Information_Binary_Synchronous_Communications_Oct70.pdf ) I get that the CRC calculation is reset on SOH (01h) or STX (02h) and accumulates until and including the ETX (03h). (excluding any SYN (32h) characters). I have tried crcreveng back and forth and I am not getting the CRC bytes right. I think I have tried most things, different bit order, different initial values. But nothing. I also tried the mode in crcreveng where it searches for matches but it always says "no models found". Maybe I am doing something wrong when using crcreveng? Any clues? Surely there are someone out there that has been around for some time and knows this, right? On the topic of crc reveng I tried to verify how it works by using some kind of known value: This article https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23638939/crc-16-ibm-reverse-lookup-in-c has a specific example where a certain data in (75h) with initial value 90f1h gives output 6390h. I tried to get crc reveng to do the same, but failed. There has to be some option I simply do not understand. I tried most combinations. /Mattis From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sun Jan 26 17:12:43 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 18:12:43 -0500 Subject: IBM BSC CRC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I ma rusty on this, been almost 50 years since I worked on the DP8EP aka the KG83. then the KG11, and the Autodin 2 CRC32 designs in hardware. I don't recall whether bisync, aka bsc used LRC8, 12, 16, or crc16 as the error detection algorithm. I don't think it used VRC. I did find a refresher that might help, but I don't think the polynomial you have for crc 16 has enough terms. BUT I could be misremembering. https://www.automatas.org/modbus/crc7.html bob On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 2:59 PM Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > Hello IBM BSC Experts! > > I am trying to figure out the CRC algorithm used by IBM BSC. I have tried a > lot of different settings in crcreveng but not getting a match. > > I am pretty convinced that the CRC-16 used by IBM was > 16 15 2 > x + x + x + 1 > This would give the polynomial 8005. > Anyone against this statement? > > But what was the initial value? > > I have two actual messages from equipment employing IBM BSC: > 32016CD90240404070032688 > and > 32016CD90240C84050030D28 > > From this document ( > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/datacomm/GA27-3004-2_General_Information_Binary_Synchronous_Communications_Oct70.pdf > ) > I get that the CRC calculation is reset on SOH (01h) or STX (02h) and > accumulates until and including the ETX (03h). (excluding any SYN (32h) > characters). > > I have tried crcreveng back and forth and I am not getting the CRC bytes > right. > I think I have tried most things, different bit order, different initial > values. But nothing. > > I also tried the mode in crcreveng where it searches for matches but it > always says "no models found". Maybe I am doing something wrong when using > crcreveng? > > Any clues? Surely there are someone out there that has been around for some > time and knows this, right? > > On the topic of crc reveng I tried to verify how it works by using some > kind of known value: This article > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23638939/crc-16-ibm-reverse-lookup-in-c > > has a specific example where a certain data in (75h) with initial value > 90f1h gives output 6390h. I tried to get crc reveng to do the same, but > failed. There has to be some option I simply do not understand. I tried > most combinations. > > /Mattis From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Jan 26 17:21:08 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 18:21:08 -0500 Subject: IBM BSC CRC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3995e3a4-9cf2-f2d2-e6f9-ac8b41ba0df7@ieee.org> True, but in my case it was a typo! But yes we digital types like saturation.? Still have the funny thing with LTSpice though. I used it a lot for electricity 1 and 2 demos for students when the college wouldn't support me running electronics workbench under a VM on linux! Works just fine with 100k!? Maybe I will just go back to the hardware, but it is a pain changing resistors in that dense board!? I think I must have blown the second transistor with too high a base current, burnt fingers tomorrow! 73 id On 26/01/2020 18:12, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > I ma rusty on this, been almost 50 years since I worked on the DP8EP > aka the KG83. then the KG11, and the Autodin 2 CRC32 designs in > hardware. > I don't recall whether bisync, aka bsc used LRC8, 12, 16, or crc16 as > the error detection algorithm. > I don't think it used VRC. I did find a refresher that might help, but > I don't think the polynomial you have for crc 16 has enough terms. > BUT I could be misremembering. > > https://www.automatas.org/modbus/crc7.html > bob > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 2:59 PM Mattis Lind via cctalk > wrote: >> Hello IBM BSC Experts! >> >> I am trying to figure out the CRC algorithm used by IBM BSC. I have tried a >> lot of different settings in crcreveng but not getting a match. >> >> I am pretty convinced that the CRC-16 used by IBM was >> 16 15 2 >> x + x + x + 1 >> This would give the polynomial 8005. >> Anyone against this statement? >> >> But what was the initial value? >> >> I have two actual messages from equipment employing IBM BSC: >> 32016CD90240404070032688 >> and >> 32016CD90240C84050030D28 >> >> From this document ( >> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/datacomm/GA27-3004-2_General_Information_Binary_Synchronous_Communications_Oct70.pdf >> ) >> I get that the CRC calculation is reset on SOH (01h) or STX (02h) and >> accumulates until and including the ETX (03h). (excluding any SYN (32h) >> characters). >> >> I have tried crcreveng back and forth and I am not getting the CRC bytes >> right. >> I think I have tried most things, different bit order, different initial >> values. But nothing. >> >> I also tried the mode in crcreveng where it searches for matches but it >> always says "no models found". Maybe I am doing something wrong when using >> crcreveng? >> >> Any clues? Surely there are someone out there that has been around for some >> time and knows this, right? >> >> On the topic of crc reveng I tried to verify how it works by using some >> kind of known value: This article >> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23638939/crc-16-ibm-reverse-lookup-in-c >> >> has a specific example where a certain data in (75h) with initial value >> 90f1h gives output 6390h. I tried to get crc reveng to do the same, but >> failed. There has to be some option I simply do not understand. I tried >> most combinations. >> >> /Mattis -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Jan 26 17:23:02 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 18:23:02 -0500 Subject: Sorry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4f631758-bbf6-b6d4-a96c-6f97327a31bb@ieee.org> Sorry guys, that LTspice stuff was not for this group - my mailer must have screwed up! 73 de Nigel ve3id On 26/01/2020 18:12, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > I ma rusty on this, been almost 50 years since I worked on the DP8EP > aka the KG83. then the KG11, and the Autodin 2 CRC32 designs in > hardware. > I don't recall whether bisync, aka bsc used LRC8, 12, 16, or crc16 as > the error detection algorithm. > I don't think it used VRC. I did find a refresher that might help, but > I don't think the polynomial you have for crc 16 has enough terms. > BUT I could be misremembering. > > https://www.automatas.org/modbus/crc7.html > bob > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 2:59 PM Mattis Lind via cctalk > wrote: >> Hello IBM BSC Experts! >> >> I am trying to figure out the CRC algorithm used by IBM BSC. I have tried a >> lot of different settings in crcreveng but not getting a match. >> >> I am pretty convinced that the CRC-16 used by IBM was >> 16 15 2 >> x + x + x + 1 >> This would give the polynomial 8005. >> Anyone against this statement? >> >> But what was the initial value? >> >> I have two actual messages from equipment employing IBM BSC: >> 32016CD90240404070032688 >> and >> 32016CD90240C84050030D28 >> >> From this document ( >> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/datacomm/GA27-3004-2_General_Information_Binary_Synchronous_Communications_Oct70.pdf >> ) >> I get that the CRC calculation is reset on SOH (01h) or STX (02h) and >> accumulates until and including the ETX (03h). (excluding any SYN (32h) >> characters). >> >> I have tried crcreveng back and forth and I am not getting the CRC bytes >> right. >> I think I have tried most things, different bit order, different initial >> values. But nothing. >> >> I also tried the mode in crcreveng where it searches for matches but it >> always says "no models found". Maybe I am doing something wrong when using >> crcreveng? >> >> Any clues? Surely there are someone out there that has been around for some >> time and knows this, right? >> >> On the topic of crc reveng I tried to verify how it works by using some >> kind of known value: This article >> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23638939/crc-16-ibm-reverse-lookup-in-c >> >> has a specific example where a certain data in (75h) with initial value >> 90f1h gives output 6390h. I tried to get crc reveng to do the same, but >> failed. There has to be some option I simply do not understand. I tried >> most combinations. >> >> /Mattis -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun Jan 26 17:05:57 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 23:05:57 +0000 (WET) Subject: IBM BSC CRC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01RGNEXI8SJO8X6FFR@beyondthepale.ie> Mattis Lind wrote: > > Hello IBM BSC Experts! > > I am trying to figure out the CRC algorithm used by IBM BSC. I have tried a > lot of different settings in crcreveng but not getting a match. > I'm definately not an IBM BSC Expert and I don't even play one on TV. I have tweaked some BSC emulation code written by someone else so I have some vague idea about this stuff, however, the emulation did not include CRCs so I'm not sure how much help I can be. > > I am pretty convinced that the CRC-16 used by IBM was > 16 15 2 > x + x + x + 1 > In the file bcb_crc.c supplied with the funetnje and HUJI-NJE packages, it says the following (which may or may not relate to CRCs in the BSC world): | The generating polynomial is X^16+X^15+X^2+1 (CRC-16). When computing the | CRC, DLE's are not computed (except from a second DLE in a sequence of | 2 DLE's). Furthermore, the first DLE+ETB which starts a text block is | not computed also. There is also some code for checking CRCs, however, it is not clear to me if this code is for use with BSC lines or with DECnet lines. > > This would give the polynomial 8005. > Anyone against this statement? > > But what was the initial value? > > I have two actual messages from equipment employing IBM BSC: > 32016CD90240404070032688 > and > 32016CD90240C84050030D28 > These appear to be something like: SYN SOH '%' 'R' STX SP SP SP ACK0 ETX followed by CRC-16 and SYN SOH '%' 'R' STX SP 'H' SP '&' ETX followed by CRC-16 > From this document ( > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/datacomm/GA27-3004-2_General_Information_Binary_Synchronous_Communications_Oct70.pdf > ) > I get that the CRC calculation is reset on SOH (01h) or STX (02h) and > accumulates until and including the ETX (03h). (excluding any SYN (32h) > characters). > On page 17, it seems to suggest that the CRC calculation is not reset by STX when the STX follows SOH, which it does in the above cases. > > I have tried crcreveng back and forth and I am not getting the CRC bytes > right. > I think I have tried most things, different bit order, different initial > values. But nothing. > > I also tried the mode in crcreveng where it searches for matches but it > always says "no models found". Maybe I am doing something wrong when using > crcreveng? > > Any clues? Surely there are someone out there that has been around for some > time and knows this, right? > On page 8, it says: "SOH% is presently used to identify request-for-test or station-dependent control messages." - could this be significant? What produced the the two sequences you quoted above and do you know what those messages mean? Is it possible that the CRC included with them is deliberately wrong? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sun Jan 26 18:32:22 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 19:32:22 -0500 Subject: Sorry In-Reply-To: <4f631758-bbf6-b6d4-a96c-6f97327a31bb@ieee.org> References: <4f631758-bbf6-b6d4-a96c-6f97327a31bb@ieee.org> Message-ID: No sweat making me refresh my memory! I am chasing a few 10 things to play with. Have a great new year, cause we humans can't decide which method to use measure a year. bb On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 6:23 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > > Sorry guys, that LTspice stuff was not for this group - my mailer must > have screwed up! > > 73 de Nigel ve3id > > > On 26/01/2020 18:12, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > I ma rusty on this, been almost 50 years since I worked on the DP8EP > > aka the KG83. then the KG11, and the Autodin 2 CRC32 designs in > > hardware. > > I don't recall whether bisync, aka bsc used LRC8, 12, 16, or crc16 as > > the error detection algorithm. > > I don't think it used VRC. I did find a refresher that might help, but > > I don't think the polynomial you have for crc 16 has enough terms. > > BUT I could be misremembering. > > > > https://www.automatas.org/modbus/crc7.html > > bob > > > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 2:59 PM Mattis Lind via cctalk > > wrote: > >> Hello IBM BSC Experts! > >> > >> I am trying to figure out the CRC algorithm used by IBM BSC. I have tried a > >> lot of different settings in crcreveng but not getting a match. > >> > >> I am pretty convinced that the CRC-16 used by IBM was > >> 16 15 2 > >> x + x + x + 1 > >> This would give the polynomial 8005. > >> Anyone against this statement? > >> > >> But what was the initial value? > >> > >> I have two actual messages from equipment employing IBM BSC: > >> 32016CD90240404070032688 > >> and > >> 32016CD90240C84050030D28 > >> > >> From this document ( > >> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/datacomm/GA27-3004-2_General_Information_Binary_Synchronous_Communications_Oct70.pdf > >> ) > >> I get that the CRC calculation is reset on SOH (01h) or STX (02h) and > >> accumulates until and including the ETX (03h). (excluding any SYN (32h) > >> characters). > >> > >> I have tried crcreveng back and forth and I am not getting the CRC bytes > >> right. > >> I think I have tried most things, different bit order, different initial > >> values. But nothing. > >> > >> I also tried the mode in crcreveng where it searches for matches but it > >> always says "no models found". Maybe I am doing something wrong when using > >> crcreveng? > >> > >> Any clues? Surely there are someone out there that has been around for some > >> time and knows this, right? > >> > >> On the topic of crc reveng I tried to verify how it works by using some > >> kind of known value: This article > >> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23638939/crc-16-ibm-reverse-lookup-in-c > >> > >> has a specific example where a certain data in (75h) with initial value > >> 90f1h gives output 6390h. I tried to get crc reveng to do the same, but > >> failed. There has to be some option I simply do not understand. I tried > >> most combinations. > >> > >> /Mattis > > > > -- > Nigel Johnson > MSc., MIEEE > VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > > > You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 > > If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday > > This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. > Nigel Johnson > > > Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jan 26 18:36:38 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 18:36:38 -0600 Subject: recovering data from old hard drive In-Reply-To: References: <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <3.0.6.32.20200117230419.016e6c10@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5E24DC56.8070602@pico-systems.com> <5E2C9D9B.4060703@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5E2E3096.5050002@pico-systems.com> On 01/26/2020 01:13 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 1/25/20 12:57 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> I have dug out an old SCSI hard drive from 1997 that may >> have some interesting stuff, most especially the source >> code for the SGI Iris flight sim demo. I have a Linux >> system with an Adaptec 2940 (aic7880) that has two >> connectors on it. It SEEMS from some probing that the >> 50-pin IDC connector on the top of the board is >> single-ended SCSI (it seems to have mostly grounds on one >> row of pins). Same for the drive, which is a Quantum >> ProDrive LPS. The drive spins up and does some seeking >> right after power-on, so it sounds like it is working. >> But, I can't seem to find that the drive is being >> recognized by the aic7xxx driver. So, looking at >> /proc/scsi/aic7xxx/## I see the device addresses all show >> just the negotiation settings, and /proc/scsi/scsi just >> shows my SATA devices but not the real SCSI ones. > > I believe Adaptec 2940s were all Single Ended. I /think/ > the differential cards that they made had a different number. > > Go into the cards BIOS (firmware?) and poke around. Does > the card see the drive? > Well, I set up another machine with a different Adaptec 2940 and was able to read two SCSI drives that had not spun in 22 years! Unfortunately, I could not find the files I was looking for, but I backed up the entire contents anyway. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 26 19:06:56 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 17:06:56 -0800 Subject: IBM BSC CRC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98b7c851-8bb2-eb1a-8ef6-0689a1b2649a@sydex.com> On 1/26/20 3:12 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > I ma rusty on this, been almost 50 years since I worked on the DP8EP > aka the KG83. then the KG11, and the Autodin 2 CRC32 designs in > hardware. > I don't recall whether bisync, aka bsc used LRC8, 12, 16, or crc16 as > the error detection algorithm. > I don't think it used VRC. I did find a refresher that might help, but > I don't think the polynomial you have for crc 16 has enough terms. > BUT I could be misremembering. If you've got the message and the checksum, however computed, there are free tools to grind through the usual suspects. I've used it on alien disk formats very successfully. --Chuck From steven at malikoff.com Sun Jan 26 19:50:24 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 11:50:24 +1000 Subject: Unidentified peripheral in Tektronix PDP-11/20 system In-Reply-To: References: <386d8879-25df-7813-a1ca-9e071dce3419@jwsss.com> <5E2DC7CE.1000902@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <84240c09e2eedeac7335ee4709a312b1.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Thanks everyone for the comments. I think Jay's notion it might be a chart recorder sounds plausible, and the images of vintage recorders Mr Google has found for me seem to be types that might have fitted the upper right rectangular area. I know it is not a good picture but it seems there might be two pen needles at the the bottom edge of the rectangle. As has been noted, cctalk brings out some great anecdotes. I'm glad it's back up, I miss it when it's not. Steve From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 02:20:21 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 09:20:21 +0100 Subject: IBM BSC CRC? In-Reply-To: <98b7c851-8bb2-eb1a-8ef6-0689a1b2649a@sydex.com> References: <98b7c851-8bb2-eb1a-8ef6-0689a1b2649a@sydex.com> Message-ID: Den m?n 27 jan. 2020 kl 02:07 skrev Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > On 1/26/20 3:12 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > I ma rusty on this, been almost 50 years since I worked on the DP8EP > > aka the KG83. then the KG11, and the Autodin 2 CRC32 designs in > > hardware. > > I don't recall whether bisync, aka bsc used LRC8, 12, 16, or crc16 as > > the error detection algorithm. > > I don't think it used VRC. I did find a refresher that might help, but > > I don't think the polynomial you have for crc 16 has enough terms. > > BUT I could be misremembering. > > If you've got the message and the checksum, however computed, there are > free tools to grind through the usual suspects. I've used it on alien > disk formats very successfully. > > Yes, there are the crc reveng for example. But I cannot get it to generate the CRC digits that matches. Neither does it give me anything when I ask it to search for algorithm used. Of course it is probably just me that don't understand it well enough. It is slightly worrying though that I cannot recreate known examples that I find online using crc reveng: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23638939/crc-16-ibm-reverse-lookup-in-c The first answer by Mark Adler involves a pretty simple CRC algorithm that given the data buffer and initiial crc value in the Maxim example generates the mentioned output. But I cannot gat the same output using crc reveng. So I just have to do something wrong when using it. But cannot figure out what. /Mattis > --Chuck > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Jan 27 06:24:14 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 12:24:14 +0000 (WET) Subject: IBM BSC CRC? In-Reply-To: References: <01RGNEXI8SJO8X6FFR@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RGO7NCR5L68X6FFR@beyondthepale.ie> Mattis Lind wrote: > > Hello Peter! > > Thanks for the effort to help! > > I maybe should elaborate a bit on what I am doing and what equipment is > involved. The sending equipment is a Alfaskop CPR4101 communication > processor. Basically IBM 3274 model C BSC compatible. There is some > description on how it communicates using BSC from page 89 and onwards in > this pdf: > http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/Alfaskop/Alfaskop_System_41_Reference_Manual_IBM3270_Emulation.pdf > > Essentially what is written there is very similar to what IBM has written > in > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/3274/GA23-0061-1_3274_Control_Unit_Description_and_Programmers_Guide_Jan84.pdf > on > page 159 and onwards. > I was hoping it was an RJE or NJE implementation rather than a terminal as I am more familiar with that side of things and I would have a good chance of being able to recognise valid data from invalid data. [snip] > > > > In the file bcb_crc.c supplied with the funetnje and HUJI-NJE packages, it > > says the following (which may or may not relate to CRCs in the BSC world): > > > > > Thanks! Interesting. Checked this CRC generator and it creates exactly the > same CRC bytes compared to the other CRC implementations I have found > around on the net. But not matching the bytes received. > > > > | The generating polynomial is X^16+X^15+X^2+1 (CRC-16). When computing > > the > > | CRC, DLE's are not computed (except from a second DLE in a sequence of > > | 2 DLE's). Furthermore, the first DLE+ETB which starts a text block is > > | not computed also. > > > > There is also some code for checking CRCs, however, it is not clear to me > > if this code is for use with BSC lines or with DECnet lines. > > > > > Cannot really understand what bcb is and what has to do with it. Is the > protocol some kind of BSC derivative with extra features. Don't really > understand it when glancing quickly through the code. > Ignore the bcb stuff - this is part of RJE/NJE protocol. (It is a bit strange that it is included in the same file as the crc code despite belonging to a quite different protocol layer.) > > > > > > > I have two actual messages from equipment employing IBM BSC: > > > 32016CD90240404070032688 > > > and > > > 32016CD90240C84050030D28 > > > > > > > These appear to be something like: > > > > SYN SOH '%' 'R' STX SP SP SP ACK0 ETX followed by CRC-16 > > > > and > > > > SYN SOH '%' 'R' STX SP 'H' SP '&' ETX followed by CRC-16 > > > Absolutely right! > I'm a bit puzzled by the ACK0 appearing inside an (apparantly non-transparant) text block and not having a DLE ahead of it but I am not really sure if this would be a problem. Most of the rest of the data looks very plausable with SYN, SOH, STX and ETX appearing in the expected places. However, if there could be a subtle error in the hardware being used to read the data, getting just one bit wrong would throw the crc right off. Maybe the terminal manual contains enough information to confirm or deny whether the poll responses are exactly as expected or not? [snip] > > One of my concerns is my complete inability to get the same CRC digits from > crc reveng compared with the three C crc algorithms I found on the > internet. I just have to do something wrong when fiddling with the options. > But what? I think I have tried bit order, inverting the bits etc. But still > nothing. > > Are there any crc reveng experts out there?? > Hopefully someone else can help with this. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 27 08:30:31 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 09:30:31 -0500 Subject: IBM BSC CRC? In-Reply-To: <01RGNEXI8SJO8X6FFR@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RGNEXI8SJO8X6FFR@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <7A9B5E44-C0BC-4BB5-B709-01ED6BBFC326@comcast.net> > On Jan 26, 2020, at 6:05 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > Mattis Lind wrote: > >> >> Hello IBM BSC Experts! >> >> I am trying to figure out the CRC algorithm used by IBM BSC. I have tried a >> lot of different settings in crcreveng but not getting a match. >> > > I'm definately not an IBM BSC Expert and I don't even play one on TV. I have > tweaked some BSC emulation code written by someone else so I have some vague > idea about this stuff, however, the emulation did not include CRCs so I'm > not sure how much help I can be. > >> >> I am pretty convinced that the CRC-16 used by IBM was >> 16 15 2 >> x + x + x + 1 >> > > In the file bcb_crc.c supplied with the funetnje and HUJI-NJE packages, it > says the following (which may or may not relate to CRCs in the BSC world): > > | The generating polynomial is X^16+X^15+X^2+1 (CRC-16). When computing the > | CRC, DLE's are not computed (except from a second DLE in a sequence of > | 2 DLE's). Furthermore, the first DLE+ETB which starts a text block is > | not computed also. > > There is also some code for checking CRCs, however, it is not clear to me > if this code is for use with BSC lines or with DECnet lines. CRC-16 sounds familiar, as does 0x8005 for a polynomial. I collected a very large lists of CRCs a while back (it's in the test suite for the crc.py module in pydecnet); in there I have the description "IBM" for the 8005 polynomial. The list came for the most part from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_redundancy_check which lists BISYNC as one of the users. Initial value would be zero; that's common for several of the older CRCs (including CRC-CCITT used by DDCMP). paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 10:29:53 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 11:29:53 -0500 Subject: KE11-A stuff In-Reply-To: <20200126190813.368C618C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200126190813.368C618C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 2:08 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So I've decided to try and build up a KE11-A Extended Arithmetic Element. I > have most of the boards (although I*m missing a M234 Register dual-width > board, if anyone has one). I have one but no spare parts. > The main thing I'm missing at this point is a backplane. > > If not, if someone does have one, even if you want to hang onto it, I'd really > appreciate good photos of the pin side of the backplane, so I have a more > detailed idea (than just the prints) on how the wiring goes. It's on my list to start examining and refurbing my PDP-11/20. I will take pictures when I get things started, but if anyone else has one, feel free to jump in. It will be some time before I get to mine. > And speaking of the prints, although there are a scanned set online, they are > pretty low-res, and some parts (e.g. the wire list, which was typical line > printer output) are hard to read as a result. So a new scan would be really, > really appreciated. I will keep an eye out for my prints as I go through things. I have _some_ original prints from 1970 (with the characteristic cover page). I will watch for the KE11A in the stack in the hopes that it's not a copy of a copy of a copy. I have wanted to restore mine for a long time - in particular, I want to run the UNIX v1 kernel that's part of the PUPS collection. About the only major thing that I will have to emulate is the swap disk. I have an RK11-D and an RK11-C (if I can get that working). I've been starting the organization process for all of this but haven't begun moving hardware yet. Cheers, -ethan > Thanks (I hope)! > > Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 27 10:42:33 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 10:42:33 -0600 Subject: IBM BSC CRC? In-Reply-To: References: <98b7c851-8bb2-eb1a-8ef6-0689a1b2649a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5E2F12F9.2030009@pico-systems.com> On 01/27/2020 02:20 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Yes, there are the crc reveng for example. But I cannot get it to generate > the CRC digits that matches. Neither does it give me anything when I ask it > to search for algorithm used. > Of course it is probably just me that don't understand it well enough. > > Soem years ago I needed to crack the CRC on a Fanuc serial encoder. Luckily, the CRC value was just 5 bits. I built a device to read out and store the data from the encoder on a PC. Then, I wrote a little c program that had a "universal" CRC implementation, where the polynomial was supplied as a command line parameter. It would read the stored file, apply the polynomial as given and report the residuals. With just a 32 value search space, I just entered them one at a time, and a few minutes later, I had found the polynomial that gave all zero residuals. With a larger search space, you might construct such a program and let it run all possible polynomial values and report how many all zero residuals you got for each. Given just a few short message blocks, it shouldn't take more than a few minutes to find the magic number. Jon From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Jan 27 11:13:23 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 17:13:23 +0000 (WET) Subject: IBM BSC CRC? In-Reply-To: References: <01RGNEXI8SJO8X6FFR@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RGOFK31RTY8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> Mattis Lind wrote: > > > > I have two actual messages from equipment employing IBM BSC: > > > 32016CD90240404070032688 > > > and > > > 32016CD90240C84050030D28 >?> > > How about this code: #include int crc16(unsigned char *ptr, int count) { unsigned int crc; char i; crc = 0x0000; while (--count >= 0) { crc = crc ^ (unsigned int) *ptr++; i = 8; do { if (crc & 0x0001) crc = (crc >> 1) ^ 0xA001; /* 0x8005 bit reversed */ else crc = (crc >> 1); } while(--i); } return (crc); } void main() { /* 32 01 6C D9 02 40 40 40 70 03 26 88 */ unsigned char data1[] = {0x6c, 0xd9, 0x02, 0x40, 0x40, 0x40, 0x50, 0x03}; /* 32 01 6C D9 02 40 C8 40 50 03 0D 28 */ unsigned char data2[] = {0x6c, 0xd9, 0x02, 0x40, 0xc8, 0x40, 0x50, 0x03}; printf("crc sent: 8826 computed: %4.4x\n", crc16(data1, sizeof(data1))); printf("crc sent: 280d computed: %4.4x\n", crc16(data2, sizeof(data2))); return; } Please note that I had to cheat to get this to work. It worked initially for the second case but it only worked for the first case when I tweaked 70 to 50, ie I substituted the corresponding value from the second case. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From tangentdelta at protonmail.com Mon Jan 27 12:38:54 2020 From: tangentdelta at protonmail.com (TangentDelta) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 18:38:54 +0000 Subject: Naked Mini 73-53628 Information Message-ID: Hello! I have a Naked Mini system that was used as the controller in a Linotype phototypesetting machine. From what I've been told, the Naked Mini CPU board is Nova compatible. I would like to use the CPU board in my own system, but I don't have enough information to do so. I haven't been able to find any documentation online that describes the backplane interface. I could reverse engineer the backplane using one of the RAM boards as reference, but if the information already exists it would save me a tremendous amount of time. Here is a gallery of the controller cage: https://imgur.com/a/LNkQisq Thanks. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 27 13:06:55 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 11:06:55 -0800 Subject: recovering data from old hard drive In-Reply-To: <5E2E3096.5050002@pico-systems.com> References: <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <3.0.6.32.20200117230419.016e6c10@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5E24DC56.8070602@pico-systems.com> <5E2C9D9B.4060703@pico-systems.com> <5E2E3096.5050002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <8f920408-9ec5-097f-256c-fc1748b0cfe6@bitsavers.org> On 1/26/20 4:36 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>> I have dug out an old SCSI hard drive from 1997 that may have some interesting stuff, most especially the source code >>> for the SGI Iris flight sim demo. this one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SGI_Dogfight I should have the code for the 68K version and the one that shipped with AIX I'm surprised it isn't out there already From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 27 13:12:29 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 11:12:29 -0800 Subject: recovering data from old hard drive In-Reply-To: <5E2E3096.5050002@pico-systems.com> References: <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <3.0.6.32.20200117230419.016e6c10@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5E24DC56.8070602@pico-systems.com> <5E2C9D9B.4060703@pico-systems.com> <5E2E3096.5050002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <68ef07e3-9b6c-374e-a34a-8f563ebdbdc8@bitsavers.org> https://github.com/lkesteloot/alice/tree/master/alice4/software/flight On 1/26/20 4:36 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 01/26/2020 01:13 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/25/20 12:57 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>> I have dug out an old SCSI hard drive from 1997 that may have some interesting stuff, most especially the source code >>> for the SGI Iris flight sim demo. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Mon Jan 27 13:15:18 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 13:15:18 -0600 Subject: OT - FTGH - U-Matic Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200127191518.GA27194@RawFedDogs.net> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 11:30:31PM +0000, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > A we're all aware members on this list often dabble with other > technologies. In my very aggressive cleanup of my hobby space I came > across a number of U-Matic Video Tapes. If anyone is into this older > video technology and would like these 8 tapes please contact me off > list. (They are physically located in the south west of Victoria, > Australia) I'm interested in the technology, but I'm on the wrong side of the world to add these to my collection. I have a few U-Matic tapes, but haven't found a player yet. To make this slightly less off topic, three of the U-Matic tapes I have are in an SRA Computer Training Library boxed set containing: MVS Concepts and Facilities - Mini-Course 2 - Introduction to Job Processing MVS Concepts and Facilities - Mini-Course 5 - MVS System Programs MVS: JCL Coding - Mini-Course 11 - Requesting Space for DASD Data Sets I found them in my current employer's document library years ago. Any player(s) we had were long gone, so I've never seen them. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 13:36:51 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 14:36:51 -0500 Subject: IBM BSC CRC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 2:59 PM Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Hello IBM BSC Experts! I used to be one 25 years ago, but it's been that long since I've even set up a BSC line. > I am trying to figure out the CRC algorithm used by IBM BSC... > > From this document ( > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/datacomm/GA27-3004-2_General_Information_Binary_Synchronous_Communications_Oct70.pdf > ) > I get that the CRC calculation is reset on SOH (01h) or STX (02h) and > accumulates until and including the ETX (03h). (excluding any SYN (32h) > characters). That's a good document. What we used as our "gold standard" in the 80s was a "Data 100" manual for a 3rd party BSC workstation. The documentation went way beyond CRC-16 and message formats. It delved deeply into the whole protocol. I don't remember the vendor, and I know I don't have a scan of it. I was not able to quickly find a copy online but I admit I didn't search more than a few minutes. It would be a good resource to locate. -ethan From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 27 21:00:24 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 21:00:24 -0600 Subject: recovering data from old hard drive In-Reply-To: <8f920408-9ec5-097f-256c-fc1748b0cfe6@bitsavers.org> References: <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <740ccf6f615a3b87c3abcb35fdec4bb2@harlie.org> <3.0.6.32.20200117230419.016e6c10@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5E24DC56.8070602@pico-systems.com> <5E2C9D9B.4060703@pico-systems.com> <5E2E3096.5050002@pico-systems.com> <8f920408-9ec5-097f-256c-fc1748b0cfe6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5E2FA3C8.8010104@pico-systems.com> On 01/27/2020 01:06 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/26/20 4:36 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >>>> I have dug out an old SCSI hard drive from 1997 that may have some interesting stuff, most especially the source code >>>> for the SGI Iris flight sim demo. > > this one? > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SGI_Dogfight > > I should have the code for the 68K version and the one that shipped with AIX > > I'm surprised it isn't out there already > > > Arrgh! This has been there for 3 years, and I've been bugging myself to try to find this code, as I thought I had the ONLY copy in existence! Thanks, I can rest now! Jon From drb at msu.edu Mon Jan 27 21:57:19 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 22:57:19 -0500 Subject: IBM BSC CRC? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 27 Jan 2020 09:30:31 -0500.) <7A9B5E44-C0BC-4BB5-B709-01ED6BBFC326@comcast.net> References: <7A9B5E44-C0BC-4BB5-B709-01ED6BBFC326@comcast.net> <01RGNEXI8SJO8X6FFR@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20200128035719.C80C921046@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Initial value would be zero; that's common for several of the older > CRCs (including CRC-CCITT used by DDCMP). The other common initializer seems to be 0xffff. De From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Jan 28 03:21:13 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:21:13 +0100 Subject: IBM BSC CRC? In-Reply-To: <01RGOFK31RTY8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RGNEXI8SJO8X6FFR@beyondthepale.ie> <01RGOFK31RTY8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: So it all turned out to be a single bit error in the first message that prevented me from finding the algorithm. The annoying thing was that I used pretty much the same algorithm that Peter provided but since I mostly looked for match of the first message and then that CRC bytes were swapped made me miss the fact that the second message actually matched. Thanks Peter for spotting this! I also got crc reveng to work eventually. ./reveng -w 16 -s 6cd90240c84050030d28 ./reveng: warning: you have only given 1 sample ./reveng: warning: to reduce false positives, give 4 or more samples width=16 poly=0x8005 init=0x0000 refin=true refout=true xorout=0x0000 check=0xbb3d residue=0x0000 name="CRC-16/ARC" MattisMacBook:reveng-2.1.0 mattis$ ./reveng -w 16 -s 6CD90240404070032688 ./reveng: warning: you have only given 1 sample ./reveng: warning: to reduce false positives, give 4 or more samples ./reveng: no models found $ ./reveng -w 16 -s 6CD90240404050032688 ./reveng: warning: you have only given 1 sample ./reveng: warning: to reduce false positives, give 4 or more samples width=16 poly=0x8005 init=0x0000 refin=true refout=true xorout=0x0000 check=0xbb3d residue=0x0000 name="CRC-16/ARC" Then from there it took a bit of fiddling with options to make crc reveng to actually be able to get it to generate the same output: $ ./reveng -w 16 -P a001 -i 0000 -x 0000 -l -d width=16 poly=0x8005 init=0x0000 refin=true refout=true xorout=0x0000 check=0xbb3d residue=0x0000 name=(none) $ ./reveng -w 16 -P a001 -i 0000 -x 0000 -l -c 6CD9024040405003 2688 For some reaason I had to swap the bit order of the polynom to get it working which I got when I used the -d option when using -P 8005 it showed a001. I tried to swap that and voila it worked! A lesson for me is then to have more message samples to spot errors easier and also never assume there is such things that error free serial links even though the cable was just one meter and the speed 9600 bps. /Mattis Den tis 28 jan. 2020 kl 03:21 skrev Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > Mattis Lind wrote: > > > > > > I have two actual messages from equipment employing IBM BSC: > > > > 32016CD90240404070032688 > > > > and > > > > 32016CD90240C84050030D28 > > > > > > > > How about this code: > > #include > > int crc16(unsigned char *ptr, int count) > { > unsigned int crc; > char i; > > crc = 0x0000; > while (--count >= 0) > { > crc = crc ^ (unsigned int) *ptr++; > i = 8; > do > { > if (crc & 0x0001) > crc = (crc >> 1) ^ 0xA001; /* 0x8005 bit reversed */ > else > crc = (crc >> 1); > } while(--i); > } > return (crc); > } > > void main() > { > /* 32 01 6C D9 02 40 40 40 70 03 26 88 */ > > unsigned char data1[] = {0x6c, 0xd9, 0x02, 0x40, 0x40, 0x40, 0x50, > 0x03}; > > /* 32 01 6C D9 02 40 C8 40 50 03 0D 28 */ > > unsigned char data2[] = {0x6c, 0xd9, 0x02, 0x40, 0xc8, 0x40, 0x50, > 0x03}; > > printf("crc sent: 8826 computed: %4.4x\n", crc16(data1, sizeof(data1))); > > printf("crc sent: 280d computed: %4.4x\n", crc16(data2, sizeof(data2))); > > return; > } > > Please note that I had to cheat to get this to work. It worked initially > for the second case but it only worked for the first case when I tweaked > 70 to 50, ie I substituted the corresponding value from the second case. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Sat Jan 25 13:48:17 2020 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 13:48:17 -0600 Subject: Assorted PCB ID? In-Reply-To: <7D6A35CB-BD81-4CEF-A092-70214C32FACD@gmail.com> References: <7D6A35CB-BD81-4CEF-A092-70214C32FACD@gmail.com> Message-ID: I found myself cleaning up the shop recently, and came across some vintage circuit boards I had stashed away 20 years ago. I?m curious if anyone can shed some light on what systems they originally went to. Here?s a link to the album?more info below. https://photos.app.goo.gl/amRmm5P8375js4o1A #1 Marked Aeronutronic Address Buffer D700909. Socketed transistors and test points along leading edge with ID tab visible when installed. #2 No name or brand marking, sides have cast aluminum rails and a clever locking mechanism. Transistors are 2N-167 in clips. #3 Marked 'Power Supply 1534 8253' 5-1-70, single-sided with edge connector. #4 Large card 11?x10?, Burroughs logo. Date stamp of Jun 1972. Not sure if someone has robbed some of the ICs or if this was optional population. #5 Small 3x4 card, single-sided but every hole has an unusual pressed-in and flow-soldered barrel. Relays are marked Blue Bead 26.5V. Looks early Japanese. 4 corner brackets have threads swaged-in for mounting. Thanks, Cory From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 02:13:36 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 09:13:36 +0100 Subject: IBM BSC CRC? In-Reply-To: <01RGNEXI8SJO8X6FFR@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RGNEXI8SJO8X6FFR@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Hello Peter! Thanks for the effort to help! I maybe should elaborate a bit on what I am doing and what equipment is involved. The sending equipment is a Alfaskop CPR4101 communication processor. Basically IBM 3274 model C BSC compatible. There is some description on how it communicates using BSC from page 89 and onwards in this pdf: http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/Alfaskop/Alfaskop_System_41_Reference_Manual_IBM3270_Emulation.pdf Essentially what is written there is very similar to what IBM has written in http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/3274/GA23-0061-1_3274_Control_Unit_Description_and_Programmers_Guide_Jan84.pdf on page 159 and onwards. The receiving end was an Intel 8274 chip programmed in BSC mode from a small STM32 micro controller. https://i.imgur.com/aPNMMkr.jpg?1 I just added a 1488 and 1489 and a cable to connect to the communication controller. I pulled together some kludgy software that just acquired SYNC and the listened to what was received on the line when sending a POLL message to the communication controller. So here I did capture the messages involved: https://i.imgur.com/rHfN3t4.jpg https://i.imgur.com/t1NgEz2.jpg The trailing FF is because there is no state machine in the receiver that is properly detecting the end of message and then putting the receiver in SYNC HUNT mode again. Not having a state machine also makes it difficult to use the CRC hardware inside the 8274 chip. But the chip only support CRC-16 and the CCITT CRC-16. The actual communication processor uses the Motorola 6852 chip which doesn't seem to have built in CRC handling om chip so I guess it takes place in the software. Have checked just the IPL ROM of the software involved. And it contain a CRC routine for checking the integrity of the ROM itself. Since many of the routines in the ROM are used by the operating system and high level software of the comm processor it might be the one checking BSC communication or it might be a completely different algorithm. Don't know for sure. 6800 assembler code generated by some kind of compiler. ; subroutine FC03: CE F8 02 ldx #$F802 ; The address of the ID string of the software FC06: FF 01 A9 stx $01A9 FC09: CE 00 00 ldx #$0000 FC0C: FF 01 AB stx $01AB FC0F: CE F8 00 ldx #$F800 ; Base of IPL PROM FC12: FF 01 A7 stx $01A7 ; Store it FC15: BD FC 23 jsr $FC23 ; jump to CRC routine FC18: B6 01 B7 lda $01B7 FC1B: 27 05 beq $FC22 ; If ok jump to the rts. FC1D: 86 50 lda #$50 ; Put a "P" in A. FC1F: 7E FB A9 jmp $FBA9 ; Error routine FC22: 39 rts ; CRC subroutine - at least the tech spec says it does a CRC on the IPL ROM and this sure looks like it. FC23: 7F 01 B8 clr $01B8 FC26: 7F 01 B9 clr $01B9 FC29: FE 01 A9 ldx $01A9 FC2C: 86 F8 lda #$F8 FC2E: B7 01 BA sta $01BA FC31: A6 00 lda (x+$00) FC33: 08 inx FC34: B7 01 BB sta $01BB FC37: 74 01 B9 lsr $01B9 FC3A: 76 01 B8 ror $01B8 FC3D: C6 00 ldb #$00 FC3F: 59 rolb FC40: F8 01 BB eorb $01BB FC43: C4 01 andb #$01 FC45: 27 0E beq $FC55 FC47: F8 01 B8 eorb $01B8 FC4A: F7 01 B8 stb $01B8 FC4D: F6 01 B9 ldb $01B9 FC50: C8 A0 eorb #$A0 FC52: F7 01 B9 stb $01B9 FC55: 7C 01 BA inc $01BA FC58: 27 03 beq $FC5D FC5A: 44 lsra FC5B: 20 D7 bra $FC34 FC5D: BC 01 AB cmpx $01AB FC60: 26 CA bne $FC2C FC62: FE 01 A7 ldx $01A7 FC65: EE 00 ldx (x+$00) FC67: BC 01 B8 cmpx $01B8 FC6A: 27 03 beq $FC6F FC6C: 7C 01 B7 inc $01B7 FC6F: 39 rts I tried to communicate with the comm processor without using the Intel 8274 chip, directly using the STM32 micro controller by using the SPI port. It successfully receives the message and is able to sync but since I cannot check incoming CRC neither can I generate a proper outbound CRC it will not be able to communicate very well. WIP: https://github.com/MattisLind/alfaskop_emu/tree/master/Utils/BSCGateway More comments inline below: Den m?n 27 jan. 2020 kl 00:52 skrev Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > Mattis Lind wrote: > > > > > Hello IBM BSC Experts! > > > > I am trying to figure out the CRC algorithm used by IBM BSC. I have > tried a > > lot of different settings in crcreveng but not getting a match. > > > > I'm definately not an IBM BSC Expert and I don't even play one on TV. I > have > tweaked some BSC emulation code written by someone else so I have some > vague > idea about this stuff, however, the emulation did not include CRCs so I'm > not sure how much help I can be. > I guess any idea here can push me forward to find a solution! > > > > > I am pretty convinced that the CRC-16 used by IBM was > > 16 15 2 > > x + x + x + 1 > > > > In the file bcb_crc.c supplied with the funetnje and HUJI-NJE packages, it > says the following (which may or may not relate to CRCs in the BSC world): > > Thanks! Interesting. Checked this CRC generator and it creates exactly the same CRC bytes compared to the other CRC implementations I have found around on the net. But not matching the bytes received. > | The generating polynomial is X^16+X^15+X^2+1 (CRC-16). When computing > the > | CRC, DLE's are not computed (except from a second DLE in a sequence of > | 2 DLE's). Furthermore, the first DLE+ETB which starts a text block is > | not computed also. > > There is also some code for checking CRCs, however, it is not clear to me > if this code is for use with BSC lines or with DECnet lines. > Cannot really understand what bcb is and what has to do with it. Is the protocol some kind of BSC derivative with extra features. Don't really understand it when glancing quickly through the code. > > > > > This would give the polynomial 8005. > > Anyone against this statement? > > > > But what was the initial value? > > > > I have two actual messages from equipment employing IBM BSC: > > 32016CD90240404070032688 > > and > > 32016CD90240C84050030D28 > > > > These appear to be something like: > > SYN SOH '%' 'R' STX SP SP SP ACK0 ETX followed by CRC-16 > > and > > SYN SOH '%' 'R' STX SP 'H' SP '&' ETX followed by CRC-16 Absolutely right! > > From this document ( > > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/datacomm/GA27-3004-2_General_Information_Binary_Synchronous_Communications_Oct70.pdf > > ) > > I get that the CRC calculation is reset on SOH (01h) or STX (02h) and > > accumulates until and including the ETX (03h). (excluding any SYN (32h) > > characters). > > > > On page 17, it seems to suggest that the CRC calculation is not reset by > STX > when the STX follows SOH, which it does in the above cases. > > You are right. My comment was a bit ambiguous. If it has hit a SOH or a STX it will accumulate until it find a ETX or ETB. > > > > I have tried crcreveng back and forth and I am not getting the CRC bytes > > right. > > I think I have tried most things, different bit order, different initial > > values. But nothing. > > > > I also tried the mode in crcreveng where it searches for matches but it > > always says "no models found". Maybe I am doing something wrong when > using > > crcreveng? > > > > Any clues? Surely there are someone out there that has been around for > some > > time and knows this, right? > > > > On page 8, it says: "SOH% is presently used to identify request-for-test or > station-dependent control messages." - could this be significant? > This is a status message sent by the communication controller is response to a POLL. It tells status and sense information for the terminal. Pages 172 and 175 in the IBM document mentioned above. > > What produced the the two sequences you quoted above and do you know what > those messages mean? Is it possible that the CRC included with them is > deliberately wrong? > Don't think they are wrong. This is a ex-production equipment and the software is a late version and has certainly been in production for quite many years. Although obviously totally obsolete by now. One of my concerns is my complete inability to get the same CRC digits from crc reveng compared with the three C crc algorithms I found on the internet. I just have to do something wrong when fiddling with the options. But what? I think I have tried bit order, inverting the bits etc. But still nothing. Are there any crc reveng experts out there?? I reckon that I once upon a time earlier failed to work with crc reveng. At that time I had a tape with a CRC on it. I had to resort to check the actual hardware to get the right polynomial. The hardware used a signetics N9401 chip which has 8 hardcoded polynomials in it. As it was wired for CRC-16 the polynomial was 8005 and I was able to get the checksum correct. But I completely failed to find it using crc reveng. Unfortunately I have no idea why. > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From j_hoppe at t-online.de Mon Jan 27 04:55:24 2020 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 11:55:24 +0100 Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1 Message-ID: Hi Pontus, > This thread makes me very happy. > > I have a KS10 that I'm working on (quite slowly). The PSU is checked out > and working. Then console seems to work, I can deposit/examine to CRAM > and RAM. > > Next step will be to load micro code and I've been mentally preparing to > tackle an RH11 emulator for the Unibone. > > I'll buy one from Joerg as soon as the second batch is ready and me and > my KS10 will happily be guinea pigs. > > And if I can, I'll help with development. I now have UniBones ready to ship. More on PM, kind regards, Joerg From phil at ultimate.com Tue Jan 28 09:12:23 2020 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:12:23 -0500 Subject: Naked Mini 73-53628 Information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <202001281512.00SFCNoL040388@ultimate.com> I wonder if it's for the typesetter that's the subject of: https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/summer.scanned.pdf From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jan 28 10:06:09 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 08:06:09 -0800 Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 4:25 AM J?rg Hoppe via cctalk wrote: > Hi Pontus, > > This thread makes me very happy. > > > > I have a KS10 that I'm working on (quite slowly). The PSU is checked out > > and working. Then console seems to work, I can deposit/examine to CRAM > > and RAM. > > > > Next step will be to load micro code and I've been mentally preparing to > > tackle an RH11 emulator for the Unibone. > > > > I'll buy one from Joerg as soon as the second batch is ready and me and > > my KS10 will happily be guinea pigs. > > > > And if I can, I'll help with development. > > I now have UniBones ready to ship. > > More on PM, > > kind regards, > Joerg > > I'll add that I started working on RH11 emulation on the Unibone last week, i'm making steady progress (as of yesterday it's able to boot the 2.11BSD kernel before falling over). 16-bit only at the moment, 18-bit will require some infrastructure work but I'll leave that to Joerg :). - Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jan 28 10:06:09 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 08:06:09 -0800 Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 4:25 AM J?rg Hoppe via cctalk wrote: > Hi Pontus, > > This thread makes me very happy. > > > > I have a KS10 that I'm working on (quite slowly). The PSU is checked out > > and working. Then console seems to work, I can deposit/examine to CRAM > > and RAM. > > > > Next step will be to load micro code and I've been mentally preparing to > > tackle an RH11 emulator for the Unibone. > > > > I'll buy one from Joerg as soon as the second batch is ready and me and > > my KS10 will happily be guinea pigs. > > > > And if I can, I'll help with development. > > I now have UniBones ready to ship. > > More on PM, > > kind regards, > Joerg > > I'll add that I started working on RH11 emulation on the Unibone last week, i'm making steady progress (as of yesterday it's able to boot the 2.11BSD kernel before falling over). 16-bit only at the moment, 18-bit will require some infrastructure work but I'll leave that to Joerg :). - Josh From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 28 10:54:18 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 08:54:18 -0800 Subject: Naked Mini 73-53628 Information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5599eb46-43d9-59e2-9121-aa109e74294c@bitsavers.org> On 1/27/20 10:38 AM, TangentDelta via cctalk wrote: > From what I've been told, the Naked Mini CPU board is Nova compatible. very funny look at the documentation on bitsavers, the only thing they have in common is that they are both 16-bits From tangentdelta at protonmail.com Tue Jan 28 11:14:52 2020 From: tangentdelta at protonmail.com (TangentDelta) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:14:52 +0000 Subject: Naked Mini 73-53628 Information In-Reply-To: <5599eb46-43d9-59e2-9121-aa109e74294c@bitsavers.org> References: <5599eb46-43d9-59e2-9121-aa109e74294c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Yes. Someone pointed that out on IRC. I feel pretty dense for not noticing that sooner! The CPU board is very similar in form and layout to the "Naked Milli" board. I can only find reference to this board in a sales pamphlet from 1976. My board says "Naked Mini" on it though... -------- Original Message -------- On Jan 28, 2020, 11:54, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 1/27/20 10:38 AM, TangentDelta via cctalk wrote: >> From what I've been told, the Naked Mini CPU board is Nova compatible. > > very funny > > look at the documentation on bitsavers, the only thing they have in common is that they are > both 16-bits From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jan 28 11:51:14 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:51:14 -0700 Subject: IBM BSC CRC? In-Reply-To: <5E2F12F9.2030009@pico-systems.com> References: <98b7c851-8bb2-eb1a-8ef6-0689a1b2649a@sydex.com> <5E2F12F9.2030009@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:20 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Soem years ago I needed to crack the CRC on a Fanuc serial > encoder. Luckily, the CRC value > was just 5 bits. I built a device to read out and store the > data from the encoder on a PC. > Then, I wrote a little c program that had a "universal" CRC > implementation, where the polynomial > was supplied as a command line parameter. > I did basically the same thing in the 1990s to reverse-engineer the 10-bit CRC used in HP series 30 ("Spice") calculators (from the late 1970s) for their ROM test. The series 30 calculators implemented the ROM self-test as a single CPU instruction that took 1025 clock cycles to execute, verifying the CRC of 1024 words of ROM, and returning a pass/fail indication. Later HP calculators did away with the CRC hardware. The HP-41C doesn't have a ROM self-test built in, though there was a diagnostic ROM used within HP, and it used a simple checksum rather than a CRC. The series 10 calculators ("Voyager") had a built-in ROM self-test, which used a simple checksum. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Jan 28 13:43:45 2020 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 20:43:45 +0100 Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128194345.iz6msuhh4zcqxhfc@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 08:06:09AM -0800, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > I'll add that I started working on RH11 emulation on the Unibone last week, > i'm making steady progress (as of yesterday it's able to boot the 2.11BSD > kernel before falling over). 16-bit only at the moment, 18-bit will > require some infrastructure work but I'll leave that to Joerg :). > I just ordered a UniBone from Joerg, and my KS10 seems to work ok to the extent that I can test it. Is your code available somewhere? You will probably run circles around me while I get up to speed on what is what, but I would still like to set up a development environment. /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Jan 28 13:43:45 2020 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 20:43:45 +0100 Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128194345.iz6msuhh4zcqxhfc@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 08:06:09AM -0800, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > I'll add that I started working on RH11 emulation on the Unibone last week, > i'm making steady progress (as of yesterday it's able to boot the 2.11BSD > kernel before falling over). 16-bit only at the moment, 18-bit will > require some infrastructure work but I'll leave that to Joerg :). > I just ordered a UniBone from Joerg, and my KS10 seems to work ok to the extent that I can test it. Is your code available somewhere? You will probably run circles around me while I get up to speed on what is what, but I would still like to set up a development environment. /P From j_hoppe at t-online.de Tue Jan 28 16:00:34 2020 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 23:00:34 +0100 Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1 In-Reply-To: <20200128194345.iz6msuhh4zcqxhfc@Update.UU.SE> References: <20200128194345.iz6msuhh4zcqxhfc@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Hi, >> I'll add that I started working on RH11 emulation on the Unibone last week, >> i'm making steady progress (as of yesterday it's able to boot the 2.11BSD >> kernel before falling over). 16-bit only at the moment, 18-bit will >> require some infrastructure work but I'll leave that to Joerg :). >> > > I just ordered a UniBone from Joerg, and my KS10 seems to work ok to the > extent that I can test it. > > Is your code available somewhere? You will probably run circles around > me while I get up to speed on what is what, but I would still like to > set up a development environment. The repository is https://github.com/j-hoppe/UniBone UniBone is its own development platform. The first thing you'd do after unpacking is to run script ./github-sync.sh which updates all sources and starts a big recompile. There's also a ./compile.sh for selective build. Personally I prefer cross-compiling from a X64 Linux Kubuntu under Eclipse. There the compile is 30 seconds instead of 4 minutes, I have a rich programming environment and can remote-cross-debug UniBone code via networked gdb/gdbserver setup. Btw, UniBone needs about 2 amps of 5V power over the screw terminals, if not run in a PDP-11 (or 10!). Do not try USB power. For controlling the 18bit DATA path inside the software, I think best is a global #define DATAWIDTH18 (or similar) to indicate the special KS10 compile. We don't need to switch dynamically between 16 and 18 data bits, a special binary is all we need, right? kind regards, Joerg From j_hoppe at t-online.de Tue Jan 28 16:00:34 2020 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 23:00:34 +0100 Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1 In-Reply-To: <20200128194345.iz6msuhh4zcqxhfc@Update.UU.SE> References: <20200128194345.iz6msuhh4zcqxhfc@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Hi, >> I'll add that I started working on RH11 emulation on the Unibone last week, >> i'm making steady progress (as of yesterday it's able to boot the 2.11BSD >> kernel before falling over). 16-bit only at the moment, 18-bit will >> require some infrastructure work but I'll leave that to Joerg :). >> > > I just ordered a UniBone from Joerg, and my KS10 seems to work ok to the > extent that I can test it. > > Is your code available somewhere? You will probably run circles around > me while I get up to speed on what is what, but I would still like to > set up a development environment. The repository is https://github.com/j-hoppe/UniBone UniBone is its own development platform. The first thing you'd do after unpacking is to run script ./github-sync.sh which updates all sources and starts a big recompile. There's also a ./compile.sh for selective build. Personally I prefer cross-compiling from a X64 Linux Kubuntu under Eclipse. There the compile is 30 seconds instead of 4 minutes, I have a rich programming environment and can remote-cross-debug UniBone code via networked gdb/gdbserver setup. Btw, UniBone needs about 2 amps of 5V power over the screw terminals, if not run in a PDP-11 (or 10!). Do not try USB power. For controlling the 18bit DATA path inside the software, I think best is a global #define DATAWIDTH18 (or similar) to indicate the special KS10 compile. We don't need to switch dynamically between 16 and 18 data bits, a special binary is all we need, right? kind regards, Joerg From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Jan 28 16:21:22 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:21:22 -0500 Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1 In-Reply-To: References: <20200128194345.iz6msuhh4zcqxhfc@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Hi Jorg! Don't think my emails are going through, do you have an order site? I'd love one. C From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jan 28 18:02:50 2020 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:02:50 -0800 Subject: Vintage HP test gear and other stuff at Anchor Electronics... Message-ID: <20200128160250.30377276@asrock> I was browsing around in the back of Anchor Electronics a couple of days ago and came across some clean (but dusty) vintage HP test gear - and several very cool large variable resistors. I've attached some pictures of both. BTW: Those of us in Silicon Valley are fans of Anchor - because they carry lots of IC's, parts, connectors, etc. Their catalog can be downloaded here: https://anchor-electronics.com/ If you're interested in the HP test gear or large variable resistors contact Alicia - for parts, contact any staff member. Note: I receive NO financial benefit from this email and my only relationship with Anchor is as a long time customer. Phone: (408)727-3693 Best, Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West Inc. https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 29 11:40:36 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 09:40:36 -0800 Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1 In-Reply-To: References: <20200128194345.iz6msuhh4zcqxhfc@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <12613446-6b28-f1f7-bc7a-43fdcb9e9a9f@bitsavers.org> I ran into the same thing. The adr you use to post from doesn't resolve On 1/28/20 2:21 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Hi Jorg! > > Don't think my emails are going through, do you have an order site? I'd love one. > > C From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Jan 29 16:22:44 2020 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:22:44 -0800 Subject: Vintage HP test gear and other stuff at Anchor Electronics... In-Reply-To: <684e6892-e7eb-c0b8-f5a9-a7bade45e444@decodesystems.com> References: <20200128160250.30377276@asrock> <684e6892-e7eb-c0b8-f5a9-a7bade45e444@decodesystems.com> Message-ID: <20200129142244.263bfa6a@asrock> Hi Dan, I sent the same message to the Bay Area Classic list and CCTALK. Folks from the Bay Area got photos. Don't know what happened to CCTALK... Lyle -- On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:51:06 -0500 Dan Veeneman wrote: > Hi Lyle, > > At least on the message I received from the list there were no attached > photographs. > > > Cheers, > > Dan > > > On 1/28/2020 7:02 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: > > I was browsing around in the back of Anchor Electronics a couple of days > > ago and came across some clean (but dusty) vintage HP test gear - and > > several very cool large variable resistors. I've attached some pictures of > > both. > > > > BTW: Those of us in Silicon Valley are fans of Anchor - because they carry > > lots of IC's, parts, connectors, etc. Their catalog can be downloaded here: > > https://anchor-electronics.com/ > > > > If you're interested in the HP test gear or large variable resistors > > contact Alicia - for parts, contact any staff member. > > > > Note: I receive NO financial benefit from this email and my only > > relationship with Anchor is as a long time customer. Phone: (408)727-3693 > > > > Best, > > Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West Inc. https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 29 17:19:45 2020 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Robert Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 15:19:45 -0800 Subject: Vintage HP test gear and other stuff at Anchor Electronics... In-Reply-To: <20200129142244.263bfa6a@asrock> References: <20200129142244.263bfa6a@asrock> Message-ID: Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 29, 2020, at 2:23 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: > > ?Hi Dan, > > I sent the same message to the Bay Area Classic list and CCTALK. Folks from > the Bay Area got photos. Don't know what happened to CCTALK... I don?t think CCTALK allows attachments. Bob > > Lyle > -- >> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:51:06 -0500 >> Dan Veeneman wrote: >> >> Hi Lyle, >> >> At least on the message I received from the list there were no attached >> photographs. >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Dan >> >> >>> On 1/28/2020 7:02 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: >>> I was browsing around in the back of Anchor Electronics a couple of days >>> ago and came across some clean (but dusty) vintage HP test gear - and >>> several very cool large variable resistors. I've attached some pictures of >>> both. >>> >>> BTW: Those of us in Silicon Valley are fans of Anchor - because they carry >>> lots of IC's, parts, connectors, etc. Their catalog can be downloaded here: >>> https://anchor-electronics.com/ >>> >>> If you're interested in the HP test gear or large variable resistors >>> contact Alicia - for parts, contact any staff member. >>> >>> Note: I receive NO financial benefit from this email and my only >>> relationship with Anchor is as a long time customer. Phone: (408)727-3693 >>> >>> Best, >>> Lyle > > > > -- > 73 NM6Y > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > https://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From tangentdelta at protonmail.com Wed Jan 29 19:41:34 2020 From: tangentdelta at protonmail.com (TangentDelta) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 01:41:34 +0000 Subject: Naked Mini 73-53628 Information In-Reply-To: References: <5599eb46-43d9-59e2-9121-aa109e74294c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I mapped out the Maxi-Bus using the Alpha manual. It seems relatively straight-forward. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Qp5xM5E_9Trn5-VABEbeffxY4pEnmCk6m-xVRM__-1Y/edit?usp=sharing The Linotron 202 reverse-engineering paper by Joe Condon, Brian Kernighan, and Ken Thompson mentions a 512x4 PROM containing boot code. It seems like the next step here is for me to identify this PROM and attempt to dump it and disassemble it. Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 12:14 PM, TangentDelta via cctalk wrote: > Yes. Someone pointed that out on IRC. I feel pretty dense for not noticing that sooner! > > The CPU board is very similar in form and layout to the "Naked Milli" board. I can only find reference to this board in a sales pamphlet from 1976. My board says "Naked Mini" on it though... > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jan 28, 2020, 11:54, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/27/20 10:38 AM, TangentDelta via cctalk wrote: > > > > > From what I've been told, the Naked Mini CPU board is Nova compatible. > > > > very funny > > look at the documentation on bitsavers, the only thing they have in common is that they are > > both 16-bits From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 30 11:24:08 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:24:08 -0800 Subject: Service manual for Panasonic LF-5010 WORM Message-ID: <4791a8d6-f6c2-9430-43bf-70ad36962644@sydex.com> I'm looking for a service manual for a Matsushita/Panasonic LF-5010 WORM drive. In particular, cleaning and an exploded parts diagram. TIA, Chuck From ethan at 757.org Thu Jan 30 11:49:36 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 12:49:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT - FTGH - U-Matic Tapes In-Reply-To: <20200127191518.GA27194@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20200127191518.GA27194@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: > To make this slightly less off topic, three of the U-Matic tapes I have are > in an SRA Computer Training Library boxed set containing: > MVS Concepts and Facilities - Mini-Course 2 - Introduction to Job > Processing > MVS Concepts and Facilities - Mini-Course 5 - MVS System Programs > MVS: JCL Coding - Mini-Course 11 - Requesting Space for DASD Data Sets > I found them in my current employer's document library years ago. Any > player(s) we had were long gone, so I've never seen them. I have a umatic deck and capture hardware if you wanted them converted. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jan 30 13:11:02 2020 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 13:11:02 -0600 Subject: OT - FTGH - U-Matic Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <20200127191518.GA27194@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 11:49 AM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > I have a umatic deck and capture hardware if you wanted them converted. I was going to offer the same but my plate is pretty full right now. If Ethan can do it, I'd be happy to see them online. And I know that Ethan's got a much nicer capture rig :) j From chris at groessler.org Thu Jan 30 13:25:08 2020 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 20:25:08 +0100 Subject: OT - FTGH - U-Matic Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <20200127191518.GA27194@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <6586a999-0ca2-8d72-4a0a-3c67ba54503d@groessler.org> On 2020-01-30 20:11, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 11:49 AM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk > wrote: > >> I have a umatic deck and capture hardware if you wanted them converted. What is your setup to capture videos? I've been given the task of digitizing some family VHS-C tapes. VCR is working, but I'm having a bad time with video cards... regards, chris From nw.johnson at ieee.org Thu Jan 30 13:41:07 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 14:41:07 -0500 Subject: OT - FTGH - U-Matic Tapes In-Reply-To: <6586a999-0ca2-8d72-4a0a-3c67ba54503d@groessler.org> References: <20200127191518.GA27194@RawFedDogs.net> <6586a999-0ca2-8d72-4a0a-3c67ba54503d@groessler.org> Message-ID: <3151111f-455c-6485-7663-5781c6a2eadc@ieee.org> I have been down that road myself.? In the end I gave up, bought a Toshiba? DVR630: https://www.amazon.ca/Toshiba-DVR630-HDMI-Recorder-Black/dp/B00GH7PP0U Yikes!? I paid $179.95 for mine a few years back! It is a lot easier to sit back and let it do the work! (As long as you don't have to pay >1k$ for it!) cheers, Nigel On 30/01/2020 14:25, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-01-30 20:11, Jason T via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 11:49 AM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> I have a umatic deck and capture hardware if you wanted them converted. > > > What is your setup to capture videos? I've been given the task of > digitizing some family VHS-C tapes. VCR is working, but I'm having a > bad time with video cards... > > regards, > chris > > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 30 14:19:51 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 13:19:51 -0700 Subject: Naked Mini 73-53628 Information In-Reply-To: References: <5599eb46-43d9-59e2-9121-aa109e74294c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6abb50e2-0093-ce01-f523-aa55ddea4975@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/29/2020 6:41 PM, TangentDelta via cctalk wrote: > I mapped out the Maxi-Bus using the Alpha manual. It seems relatively straight-forward. > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Qp5xM5E_9Trn5-VABEbeffxY4pEnmCk6m-xVRM__-1Y/edit?usp=sharing > > The Linotron 202 reverse-engineering paper by Joe Condon, Brian Kernighan, and Ken Thompson mentions a 512x4 PROM containing boot code. It seems like the next step here is for me to identify this PROM and attempt to dump it and disassemble it. > And if you don't have a prom programer, you can burn one here. http://www.eprompro.com/Index.html From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Jan 31 05:58:56 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 11:58:56 +0000 (WET) Subject: H7821 power supply in MicroVAX 3100, SCSI disk enclosures and others Message-ID: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> The recent discussion on BSC protocol prompted me to dig out my Microvax 3100 with DSH32 synchronous serial interface. It had been idle in storage for several years and it wouldn't power up, only giving a brief flash on the diagnostic LEDs and a quick twitch of the fans. There was a slight smell, like the stale air that comes out of a deflating tyre. I took out the H7821 power supply and found that five identical brown 1800uF 25V electrolytic capacitors on the output side had leaked. The SCSI disk enclosure where the machine's system disk lives required several power cycles to get it to run at all and it died as soon as the disk tried to spin up. It turned out to also contain a H7821 power supply which had a similar issue with the same five brown capacitors, although not as extensive as in the main unit. I found a second disk enclosure which had seen little use and grabbed the power supply out of that to put in the MicroVAX. It worked well enough to test with but there was a ring of goo around the bottom of one of the brown capacitors which was worst affected in the other units. Time to order a batch of replacement capacitors and figure out what else has been damaged. While it is not the worst I have seen, access to these power supplies for repairs is quite difficult and it is really difficult to debug them safely while they are running with the cover off :-( If anyone has anything with H7821 power supplies in them, I suggest checking on these capacitors. If anything with these power supplies is in storage, I suggest ensuring it is stored the normal way up as this should limit the ability of the goo to escape and spread around the power supply. And there I was thought I was being safe enough by removing the nicad battery packs some years ago... Regards, Peter Coghlan. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jan 31 07:27:09 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 08:27:09 -0500 Subject: H7821 power supply in MicroVAX 3100, SCSI disk enclosures and others In-Reply-To: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 8:24 AM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The recent discussion on BSC protocol prompted me to dig out my Microvax > 3100 > with DSH32 synchronous serial interface. It had been idle in storage for > several years and it wouldn't power up, only giving a brief flash on the > diagnostic LEDs and a quick twitch of the fans. There was a slight smell, > like > the stale air that comes out of a deflating tyre. > > > > If anyone has anything with H7821 power supplies in them, I suggest > checking > on these capacitors. If anything with these power supplies is in storage, > I > suggest ensuring it is stored the normal way up as this should limit the > ability of the goo to escape and spread around the power supply. > > And there I was thought I was being safe enough by removing the nicad > battery > packs some years ago... > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > Thanks Peter..My 3100 just smoked up the other day, needs repair or a new supply. Bill From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Jan 31 08:13:05 2020 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:13:05 +0000 Subject: H7821 power supply in MicroVAX 3100, SCSI disk enclosures and others In-Reply-To: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 at 13:24, Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The recent discussion on BSC protocol prompted me to dig out my Microvax > 3100 > with DSH32 synchronous serial interface. It had been idle in storage for > several years and it wouldn't power up, only giving a brief flash on the > diagnostic LEDs and a quick twitch of the fans. There was a slight smell, > like > the stale air that comes out of a deflating tyre. > Oh hells, thanks for the heads-up. I've got quite a few of those that have also been in storage for several years. Time to add them to 'The List' -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ucespamdump at gmail.com Fri Jan 31 12:29:52 2020 From: ucespamdump at gmail.com (crufta cat) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 13:29:52 -0500 Subject: H7821 power supply in MicroVAX 3100, SCSI disk enclosures and others In-Reply-To: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: General rule for Elecrolytic caps is age and heat is not their friend. So the assumption is if it powers up they may be leaky(electrically) or leaking and not completely bad so inspection is well advised. My experience is if powered regularly (at least once a year for a hour or more) they seem to behave well. Same for other electronics (non computer). Allison On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 8:24 AM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The recent discussion on BSC protocol prompted me to dig out my Microvax > 3100 > with DSH32 synchronous serial interface. It had been idle in storage for > several years and it wouldn't power up, only giving a brief flash on the > diagnostic LEDs and a quick twitch of the fans. There was a slight smell, > like > the stale air that comes out of a deflating tyre. > > I took out the H7821 power supply and found that five identical brown > 1800uF 25V > electrolytic capacitors on the output side had leaked. > > The SCSI disk enclosure where the machine's system disk lives required > several > power cycles to get it to run at all and it died as soon as the disk tried > to > spin up. It turned out to also contain a H7821 power supply which had a > similar issue with the same five brown capacitors, although not as > extensive > as in the main unit. > > I found a second disk enclosure which had seen little use and grabbed the > power > supply out of that to put in the MicroVAX. It worked well enough to test > with > but there was a ring of goo around the bottom of one of the brown > capacitors > which was worst affected in the other units. Time to order a batch of > replacement capacitors and figure out what else has been damaged. While > it is > not the worst I have seen, access to these power supplies for repairs is > quite > difficult and it is really difficult to debug them safely while they are > running with the cover off :-( > > If anyone has anything with H7821 power supplies in them, I suggest > checking > on these capacitors. If anything with these power supplies is in storage, > I > suggest ensuring it is stored the normal way up as this should limit the > ability of the goo to escape and spread around the power supply. > > And there I was thought I was being safe enough by removing the nicad > battery > packs some years ago... > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Fri Jan 31 13:22:27 2020 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 19:22:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: H7821 power supply in MicroVAX 3100, SCSI disk enclosures and others In-Reply-To: References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <606292697.3969928.1580498547243@mail.yahoo.com> Yep, that's what I call preventive electronics maintenance: I power up for a little time at least once a year all electronics that were in operational order up to a year ago, no matter what it is, to make sure they don't turn defective from "non-running", which is mainly affected by caps indeed. Best regards, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Freitag, 31. Januar 2020, 19:30:17 MEZ hat crufta cat via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben: General rule for Elecrolytic caps is age and heat is not their friend. So the assumption is if it powers up they may be leaky(electrically) or leaking and not completely bad so inspection is well advised. My experience is if powered regularly (at least once a year for a hour or more) they seem to behave well.? Same for other electronics (non computer). Allison On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 8:24 AM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The recent discussion on BSC protocol prompted me to dig out my Microvax > 3100 > with DSH32 synchronous serial interface.? It had been idle in storage for > several years and it wouldn't power up, only giving a brief flash on the > diagnostic LEDs and a quick twitch of the fans.? There was a slight smell, > like > the stale air that comes out of a deflating tyre. > > I took out the H7821 power supply and found that five identical brown > 1800uF 25V > electrolytic capacitors on the output side had leaked. > > The SCSI disk enclosure where the machine's system disk lives required > several > power cycles to get it to run at all and it died as soon as the disk tried > to > spin up.? It turned out to also contain a H7821 power supply which had a > similar issue with the same five brown capacitors, although not as > extensive > as in the main unit. > > I found a second disk enclosure which had seen little use and grabbed the > power > supply out of that to put in the MicroVAX.? It worked well enough to test > with > but there was a ring of goo around the bottom of one of the brown > capacitors > which was worst affected in the other units.? Time to order a batch of > replacement capacitors and figure out what else has been damaged.? While > it is > not the worst I have seen, access to these power supplies for repairs is > quite > difficult and it is really difficult to debug them safely while they are > running with the cover off :-( > > If anyone has anything with H7821 power supplies in them, I suggest > checking > on these capacitors.? If anything with these power supplies is in storage, > I > suggest ensuring it is stored the normal way up as this should limit the > ability of the goo to escape and spread around the power supply. > > And there I was thought I was being safe enough by removing the nicad > battery > packs some years ago... > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From Rice43 at btinternet.com Fri Jan 31 13:48:49 2020 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 19:48:49 +0000 Subject: H7821 power supply in MicroVAX 3100, SCSI disk enclosures and others In-Reply-To: <606292697.3969928.1580498547243@mail.yahoo.com> References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <606292697.3969928.1580498547243@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <88F36692-3912-4217-BD71-A52623A8A934@btinternet.com> The main failure point of all old electronics are the capacitors. Over time, electrolytic capacitors dry out, and can cause a wide array of different faults. From ones that are leaky, and or way out of spec, they can exhibit all sorts of ?fun? errors in hardware. The main one i?ve come across is ?RIFA? brand rectangular thin-film filter capacitors. These can be quite violent when they fail, and they fail often. Many power supplies can be brought back (for a time) by just replacing these capacitors. Electrolytics, whilst far more reliable (and less explosive) than the RIFA capacitors, also dry out and go bad over time. However, uness your machine was built during the ?capacitor plague?, these can still be surprisingly reliable. However, if you?re planning on using the electronics regularly, they are still recommended to be replaced.The SMD electrolytics from the late 80?s and onwards often need replacing,. These can leak and rot out the leads, and being surface mount, they can be quite tricky to replace. Outside of electrolytics, tantalum capacitors can also fail. Whilst they don?t ?dry out? as such, they still degrade over time. These can fail quite spectacularly, resulting in smoke and flames if you are not careful. They are generally more reliable, and probably not worth replacing across board, but when they do fail, it can be quite impressive. Other electrical components, such as PCB?s, resistors, and silicon chips, have no discernable lifetime outside of corrosion and physical damage. Provided they are looked after, these components can carry on working indefinitely. Obviously, mechanical components (fans, relays, rotary switches), vacuum tubes, and much older cardboard tube components (resistors in vacuum tube TV?s/radios) stiff suffer from degredation from wear and old age. Often replacements can be as scarce as the equipment itself, so extra care should be taken when powering that sort of stuff on. > On Jan 31, 2020, at 7:22 PM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > > Yep, that's what I call preventive electronics maintenance: I power up for a little time at least once a year all electronics that were in operational order up to a year ago, no matter what it is, to make sure they don't turn defective from "non-running", which is mainly affected by caps indeed. > Best regards, > Pierre From dk at thewaffleiron.net Fri Jan 31 10:29:58 2020 From: dk at thewaffleiron.net (David Kuder) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 11:29:58 -0500 Subject: H7821 power supply in MicroVAX 3100, SCSI disk enclosures and others In-Reply-To: References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Dang, guess I should get off my duff and upright my 3100. It's been on it's side for a couple years since the roller base had broken wheel mounts and my attempt at a repair just left the bottom of the chassis deformed as too much weight got concentrated where I attached castors. On Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 9:13 AM Adrian Graham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 at 13:24, Peter Coghlan via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > The recent discussion on BSC protocol prompted me to dig out my Microvax > > 3100 > > with DSH32 synchronous serial interface. It had been idle in storage for > > several years and it wouldn't power up, only giving a brief flash on the > > diagnostic LEDs and a quick twitch of the fans. There was a slight > smell, > > like > > the stale air that comes out of a deflating tyre. > > > > > > Oh hells, thanks for the heads-up. I've got quite a few of those that have > also been in storage for several years. Time to add them to 'The List' > > -- > Adrian Graham > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk >