From shumaker at att.net Tue Dec 1 04:33:02 2020 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 02:33:02 -0800 Subject: Heathkit H89A (was accidentally circuit cellar...) In-Reply-To: References: <01ef01d6c3de$ef98e8a0$cecab9e0$@gmail.com> <079f01d6c4a8$268aaaa0$739fffe0$@gmail.com> <731271a4-c97c-4edc-6991-2c86a35dd7c2@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4e5a470d-c0e7-0c78-fa25-502cc222c2f5@att.net> Thanks!?? No clue which of us were first but if the museum is interested, I will pass. Steve Shumaker On 11/30/2020 12:42 PM, Tom Uban via cctech wrote: > Valparaiso, IN. > On 11/29/20 4:21 PM, s shumaker via cctalk wrote: >> where are you? >> >> Steve >> >> >> On 11/29/2020 9:37 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >>> I'm sorting through my stuff and have Heathkit H89A computer. Last time I messed (20 years ago) it >>> showed signs of life, but was not fully functional. I do have a manual for it. >>> Pics upon request. >>> Any interest? >>> >>> --tom >>> >>> From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Dec 1 09:05:21 2020 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 16:05:21 +0100 Subject: Intermec 8625 In-Reply-To: References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> <50167a37-56a1-bbda-3bdf-0380fd091c71@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <8f4affdb-6fa2-2db6-5895-a87aa9b42dc6@farumdata.dk> Hi All, It might sound a bit strange, but I am looking for the manual for the Intermec 8625 barcode printer. I need it for a museum project in the danish Home Guard, but it seems to be just as rare a a hens teeth. I would be very grateful if I could borrow the user manual for copying the relevant parts. Thanks in advance Nico, OZ 1 BMC From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 1 15:35:49 2020 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2020 13:35:49 -0800 Subject: Atari ST diskettes References: Message-ID: I found a box of 45 Atari ST diskettes in my basement, from my 1980's 520 ST (or maybe my brother's 1040 ST). I don't have a floppy drive, so I can't tell whether they're readable. Some are originals, for example for 1St Word, the word processor, and Regent Base, a relational database program. Others are copies. If you send a PDF of a USPS media rate shipping label, 4"x5"x6", 3lb, they're yours. Coordinate with me so you don't send a label after somebody else has already sent one. Van Snyder From robert.stek at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 19:23:44 2020 From: robert.stek at gmail.com (Robert Stek) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 20:23:44 -0500 Subject: Votrax Type N Talk or PSS, Intextalker, Microvox Message-ID: If anyone knows of an available unit (at considerably less than the $500 one on eBay), please let me know. I actually have one SC-01-A and would even take a unit missing the Votrax chip - I understand some units were scavenged for the chip for several video arcade machines which used them. From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 19:28:13 2020 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 20:28:13 -0500 Subject: Votrax Type N Talk or PSS, Intextalker, Microvox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh.. That brings back memories. We had a Votrax with a serial interface in the computer room. I configured it as a printer so I could yell into the room.. echo Hey Alan. Look at the console and change the tape to the one requested | lpr -Pvotrax On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 8:24 PM Robert Stek via cctalk wrote: > If anyone knows of an available unit (at considerably less than the $500 > one on eBay), please let me know. I actually have one SC-01-A and would > even take a unit missing the Votrax chip - I understand some units were > scavenged for the chip for several video arcade machines which used them. > From robert.stek at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 20:01:45 2020 From: robert.stek at gmail.com (Robert Stek) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 21:01:45 -0500 Subject: Votrax Type N Talk or PSS, Intextalker, Microvox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was fascinated with the early TTS units - had both a Votrax and a Microvox from Micromint. I am re-creating my original 1980 setup with a Sol and a NorthStar Horizon, though I think I'll skip my NEC Spinwriter. On Tue, Dec 1, 2020, 8:28 PM Tony Aiuto wrote: > Oh.. That brings back memories. We had a Votrax with a serial interface in > the computer room. > I configured it as a printer so I could yell into the room.. > > echo Hey Alan. Look at the console and change the tape to the one > requested | lpr -Pvotrax > > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 8:24 PM Robert Stek via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> If anyone knows of an available unit (at considerably less than the $500 >> one on eBay), please let me know. I actually have one SC-01-A and would >> even take a unit missing the Votrax chip - I understand some units were >> scavenged for the chip for several video arcade machines which used them. >> > From ed at groenenberg.net Wed Dec 2 01:08:38 2020 From: ed at groenenberg.net (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2020 07:08:38 +0000 Subject: Votrax Type N Talk or PSS, Intextalker, Microvox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4149893cd60c5f2536e6e9f48e61efb5@groenenberg.net> December 2, 2020 2:23 AM, "Robert Stek via cctalk" wrote: > If anyone knows of an available unit (at considerably less than the $500 > one on eBay), please let me know. I actually have one SC-01-A and would > even take a unit missing the Votrax chip - I understand some units were > scavenged for the chip for several video arcade machines which used them. I have a SC-01 based unit made by INTEX and is called 'Intex-Talker'. It also has a RS-232 interface and is a 6502 based device. I also use it as a 'printer' for demonstrations and is connected to my pdp-11. print/que=speech demo1.txt Still works, and when powered up, it says 'ready'. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta 😆 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 06:05:32 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 06:05:32 -0600 Subject: Votrax Type N Talk or PSS, Intextalker, Microvox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9deaa237-6f2e-e26d-6017-86933be1d452@gmail.com> On 12/1/20 7:28 PM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > Oh.. That brings back memories. We had a Votrax with a serial interface in > the computer room. > I configured it as a printer so I could yell into the room.. > > echo Hey Alan. Look at the console and change the tape to the one requested > | lpr -Pvotrax That's actually... useful. I've never really known what people did with them, beyond the occasional little bit of amusement. I've got a serial-interfaced one based around an RCA 1802 which I last had hooked up to an Apple II a few years ago, but it's one of those "cool to have" things rather than really serving any purpose. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 06:14:38 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 13:14:38 +0100 Subject: Atari ST diskettes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 2020 at 22:36, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > > I found a box of 45 Atari ST diskettes in my basement, from my 1980's > 520 ST (or maybe my brother's 1040 ST). > > I don't have a floppy drive, so I can't tell whether they're readable. > > Some are originals, for example for 1St Word, the word processor, and > Regent Base, a relational database program. > > Others are copies. > > If you send a PDF of a USPS media rate shipping label, 4"x5"x6", 3lb, > they're yours. Coordinate with me so you don't send a label after > somebody else has already sent one. So I guess you are in the USA? If you don't get much response here, for many of whom I suspect the ST is a bit modern, let me know and I can share it on some relevant groups on FB for you. Anonymised or obscured as you prefer. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 08:37:14 2020 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:37:14 -0500 Subject: Votrax Type N Talk or PSS, Intextalker, Microvox In-Reply-To: <9deaa237-6f2e-e26d-6017-86933be1d452@gmail.com> References: <9deaa237-6f2e-e26d-6017-86933be1d452@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 7:05 AM Jules Richardson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/1/20 7:28 PM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > > Oh.. That brings back memories. We had a Votrax with a serial interface > in > > the computer room. > > I configured it as a printer so I could yell into the room.. > > > > echo Hey Alan. Look at the console and change the tape to the one > requested > > | lpr -Pvotrax > > That's actually... useful. I've never really known what people did with > them, beyond the occasional little bit of amusement. > There was certainly amusement too. We would hide the box in one of the cabinets and have it play things to noob users who were in the room alone. I've got a serial-interfaced one based around an RCA 1802 which I last had > hooked up to an Apple II a few years ago, but it's one of those "cool to > have" things rather than really serving any purpose. > From gavin at learn.bio Wed Dec 2 09:08:47 2020 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:08:47 -0600 Subject: Votrax Type N Talk or PSS, Intextalker, Microvox In-Reply-To: References: <9deaa237-6f2e-e26d-6017-86933be1d452@gmail.com> Message-ID: I had an RS-232 Votrax and also the Heathkit EE-3403 Speech Synthesis course for the ET-3400 Microprocessor Trainer, which came with an SC-01 chip as one of the parts if I recall correctly. Both long ago faded away through downsizing here sadly. I do still have the test-to-speech input file from 1988 that was used to have the Votrax sing the 12-days-of-Christmas at the company holiday party that year, and the HP 3000 utility to feed it out a serial port. On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:37 AM Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 7:05 AM Jules Richardson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 12/1/20 7:28 PM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > > > Oh.. That brings back memories. We had a Votrax with a serial interface > > in > > > the computer room. > > > I configured it as a printer so I could yell into the room.. > > > > > > echo Hey Alan. Look at the console and change the tape to the one > > requested > > > | lpr -Pvotrax > > > > That's actually... useful. I've never really known what people did with > > them, beyond the occasional little bit of amusement. > > > > There was certainly amusement too. We would hide the box in one of the > cabinets > and have it play things to noob users who were in the room alone. > > I've got a serial-interfaced one based around an RCA 1802 which I last had > > hooked up to an Apple II a few years ago, but it's one of those "cool to > > have" things rather than really serving any purpose. > > From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 12:19:51 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 19:19:51 +0100 Subject: Anyone want some LMI Lisp Machine tapes? Message-ID: https://www.ebay.de/itm/254795423667 ?1 ? LISP MACHINE INC 1/2" Reel Tapes Anyone who opens this auction will know what this is - and how unique these tapes are. The lot is consisting of 13 tapes, which are labeled as follows: LMI FORTRAN 77 #1352-0000 LMI Release 2.0 two tapes LMI Boot / SDU 3.14 #3143-0000 Rev A LMI REL 3.1 Patch Tape 1600BPI 30. SEP 1987 LMI CS Tape Experimental 6. AUG 1987 LMI UCODE 1599 11 FEB 1987 LMI RELEASE 2.0 Diagnostics #1022-0000 LMI LISP SOURCE LMI Release 3.0 LISP System 3.205 Microcode 1593 plus four unlabeled tapes plus two loose tape label, not assignable to the tapes unlabled The tapes were not tested for readability by me and will be sold as is. Shipment world wide, please ask for shipment costs - additional insurance cost might be apply. ? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 12:35:28 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 10:35:28 -0800 Subject: Anyone want some LMI Lisp Machine tapes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 10:20 AM Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > https://www.ebay.de/itm/254795423667 > > ?1 > > ? > LISP MACHINE INC 1/2" Reel Tapes > > Anyone who opens this auction will know what this is - and how unique > these tapes are. > > The lot is consisting of 13 tapes, which are labeled as follows: > > LMI FORTRAN 77 #1352-0000 LMI Release 2.0 two tapes > LMI Boot / SDU 3.14 #3143-0000 Rev A > LMI REL 3.1 Patch Tape 1600BPI 30. SEP 1987 > LMI CS Tape Experimental 6. AUG 1987 > LMI UCODE 1599 11 FEB 1987 > LMI RELEASE 2.0 Diagnostics #1022-0000 > LMI LISP SOURCE > LMI Release 3.0 LISP System 3.205 Microcode 1593 > > plus four unlabeled tapes > plus two loose tape label, not assignable to the tapes unlabled > > The tapes were not tested for readability by me and will be sold as is. > > Shipment world wide, please ask for shipment costs - additional > insurance cost might be apply. > ? > I was going to try to get these and image them. I still have a few other Lambda tapes to image that came with my system, but they need a good baking first... - Josh > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Dec 2 14:48:33 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 12:48:33 -0800 Subject: Anyone want some LMI Lisp Machine tapes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I?m bidding on these tapes with the intent to get them into the hands of someone like Josh and/or Al who has the skill and equipment to read and archive them. I hope nobody is trying to acquire them just to ?have? them. ? Chris From bear at typewritten.org Wed Dec 2 21:37:52 2020 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 19:37:52 -0800 Subject: Anyone want some LMI Lisp Machine tapes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 2, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Chris Hanson via cctech wrote: > I?m bidding on these tapes with the intent to get them into the hands of someone like Josh and/or Al who has the skill and equipment to read and archive them. Then I hope you're not making it harder by bidding against them. ok bear. -- until further notice From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 2 21:58:41 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 19:58:41 -0800 Subject: Anyone want some LMI Lisp Machine tapes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12198817-bea9-9331-86b3-6ad2e796c0ca@bitsavers.org> On 12/2/20 7:37 PM, r.stricklin via cctech wrote: > > On Dec 2, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Chris Hanson via cctech wrote: > >> I?m bidding on these tapes with the intent to get them into the hands of someone like Josh and/or Al who has the skill and equipment to read and archive them. > > Then I hope you're not making it harder by bidding against them. > I'm not bidding, it's just Josh From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Dec 3 12:14:10 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 10:14:10 -0800 Subject: Anyone want some LMI Lisp Machine tapes? In-Reply-To: <12198817-bea9-9331-86b3-6ad2e796c0ca@bitsavers.org> References: <12198817-bea9-9331-86b3-6ad2e796c0ca@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Dec 2, 2020, at 7:58 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/2/20 7:37 PM, r.stricklin via cctech wrote: >> On Dec 2, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Chris Hanson via cctech wrote: >>> I?m bidding on these tapes with the intent to get them into the hands of someone like Josh and/or Al who has the skill and equipment to read and archive them. >> Then I hope you're not making it harder by bidding against them. > > I'm not bidding, it's just Josh Josh and I coordinated, it?s just me. :) ? Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Dec 3 12:14:10 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 10:14:10 -0800 Subject: Anyone want some LMI Lisp Machine tapes? In-Reply-To: <12198817-bea9-9331-86b3-6ad2e796c0ca@bitsavers.org> References: <12198817-bea9-9331-86b3-6ad2e796c0ca@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Dec 2, 2020, at 7:58 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/2/20 7:37 PM, r.stricklin via cctech wrote: >> On Dec 2, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Chris Hanson via cctech wrote: >>> I?m bidding on these tapes with the intent to get them into the hands of someone like Josh and/or Al who has the skill and equipment to read and archive them. >> Then I hope you're not making it harder by bidding against them. > > I'm not bidding, it's just Josh Josh and I coordinated, it?s just me. :) ? Chris From kej at kyrafre.com Thu Dec 3 11:55:14 2020 From: kej at kyrafre.com (Kevin Jordan) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 12:55:14 -0500 Subject: Problems with FORT and ALGOL in TSS/8 Message-ID: Hi everyone, The Nostalgic Computing Center has a virtual PDP-8 running TSS/8 in its collection. We use the SIMH PDP-8e emulator to support the machine, and we recently updated the machine to run the TSS/8 distribution created by LCM+L, found here on GitHub . The LCM+L distribution is slightly different from other TSS/8 distributions available on the web in that it provides some additional goodies such as ALGOL and LISP. The NCC demonstrates how various classic computers worked by providing automated scripts that interact with the machines in the collection. For example, to demonstrate each of the programming languages supported by a machine, scripts are provided to create, compile, and run a simple Fibonacci sequence generator. We've done this for the TSS/8 system, but the scripts aren't working for FORTRAN or ALGOL, and we're wondering if anyone on this list might know why. Specifically, in the case of FORTRAN, the compiler exits with an error code 6204. This occurs even when trying to compile trivial "hello world" programs, and it appears to occur in all other TSS/8 distributions we've tried as well (i.e., this particular problem is not unique to the LCM+L distribution). We haven't found error code 6204 specifically documented in the TSS/8 user/admin manuals, but the manuals do document other error codes in the 62xx range. Documented error codes in the 62xx range appear to reflect file I/O errors, so we're wondering if perhaps one of the files supporting the FORTRAN compiler is corrupt in all of these distributions. For example, here is a transcription of a simple session demonstrating the problem: .R EDIT INPUT: OUTPUT:FTEST A WRITE(1,10) 10 FORMAT(5HHELLO,/) END E ^BS .R FORT INPUT:FTEST OUTPUT: 6204^BS . We tried enabling the floating point processor to see if lack of FPP might cause FORT to abort, but enabling the FPP did not solve the problem. The SIMH configuration file for the machine currently looks like: set throttle 800K set df disabled set rf disabled set rk enabled set dt enabled att rk0 tss8_rk_lcm.dsk set cpu 32k attach ttix 4000 load boot.bin run 200 Note that BASIC, FOCAL, and LISP all seem to run very nicely on the machine. The problem we're experiencing with ALGOL appears to be a glaring compiler bug, but the compiler was distributed widely through DECUS, and it is difficult to imagine that it would have been released with an obvious bug, so we are wondering if perhaps we're not interpreting the user manual correctly. Here is a transcription of a session that exhibits the problem: .R EDIT INPUT: OUTPUT:ATEST A 'BEGIN' 'INTEGER' I; I := 1; WRITE(1, I); SKIP 'END' $ E ^BS .R ALGOL INPUT:ATEST OUTPUT: *TOO MANY UNDEFINED [UEXPRESSION* ^BS . The compiler seems to be complaining that the simple assignment statement on line 3 of the program is somehow incorrect. If we change the statement to "I := 1 + 0;", the error message goes away, and the program runs, but it prints "0" instead of the expected "1". Also, if we change the program to: 'BEGIN' 'INTEGER' I; 'FOR' I := 1 'STEP' 1 'UNTIL' 10 'DO' 'BEGIN' WRITE(1, I); SKIP 'END' 'END' $ it compiles successfully and it prints what is expected, the numbers 1 through 10. Does anyone have experience with the ALGOL/8 compiler? If so, does this behavior make sense, and can you let us know what we're doing wrong? Note that the same ALGOL60 program compiles and runs as expected on the CDC mainframes and the TOPS-20 system at the NCC. thanks! Kevin From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Dec 3 20:20:55 2020 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 02:20:55 +0000 Subject: WTD - Jupiter Ace plastic rivets Message-ID: Has anyone got a couple of the white plastic rivets which are used to hold the Jupiter Ace case together? They consist of a 4-point clawed rivet of about 5mm long, and a pin which pushes down the centre to open it out. I need five of them ideally - but even two or three would get the case buttoned up, if not perfectly. I've checked the local plastic supplier catalogues and haven't found anything which quite matches up. Cheers, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk https://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 22:32:54 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 04:32:54 +0000 Subject: WTD - Jupiter Ace plastic rivets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 2:21 AM Philip Pemberton via cctalk wrote: > > Has anyone got a couple of the white plastic rivets which are used to > hold the Jupiter Ace case together? > > They consist of a 4-point clawed rivet of about 5mm long, and a pin > which pushes down the centre to open it out. > > I need five of them ideally - but even two or three would get the case > buttoned up, if not perfectly. > > I've checked the local plastic supplier catalogues and haven't found > anything which quite matches up. Not identical, in the the pin has head on it, but https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/rivets/0280903/ or similar might work. -tony From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 23:38:56 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 21:38:56 -0800 Subject: Problems with FORT and ALGOL in TSS/8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 6:13 PM Kevin Jordan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > The Nostalgic Computing Center has a > virtual PDP-8 running TSS/8 > < > http://www.nostalgiccomputing.org:8080/aterm.html?m=pdp8&t=PDP-8&r=24&c=80 > > > in its collection. We use the SIMH PDP-8e emulator to support the machine, > and we recently updated the machine to run the TSS/8 distribution created > by LCM+L, found here on GitHub > . The LCM+L > distribution > is slightly different from other TSS/8 distributions available on the web > in that it provides some additional goodies such as ALGOL and LISP. > > The NCC demonstrates how various classic computers worked by providing > automated scripts that interact with the machines in the collection. > For example, to demonstrate each of the programming languages supported by > a machine, scripts are provided to create, compile, and run a simple > Fibonacci sequence generator. We've done this for the TSS/8 system, but the > scripts aren't working for FORTRAN or ALGOL, and we're wondering if anyone > on this list might know why. > > Specifically, in the case of FORTRAN, the compiler exits with an error code > 6204. This occurs even when trying to compile trivial "hello world" > programs, and it appears to occur in all other TSS/8 distributions we've > tried as well (i.e., this particular problem is not unique to the LCM+L > distribution). We haven't found error code 6204 specifically documented in > the TSS/8 user/admin manuals, but the manuals do document other error codes > in the 62xx range. Documented error codes in the 62xx range appear to > reflect file I/O errors, so we're wondering if perhaps one of the files > supporting the FORTRAN compiler is corrupt in all of these distributions. > The LCM+L variant is built starting from the same disk image as all the other TSS/8 systems out there (which was originally taken from John Wilson's TSS/8 system). I extended the filesystem to a full megaword (the maximum supported by TSS/8) for the RK05 image. I suspect you may be right that FORTRAN is corrupted, I'll take a look this weekend. I'll admit to not having played with it; though I did test out everything else. > > For example, here is a transcription of a simple session demonstrating the > problem: > > > > Note that BASIC, FOCAL, and LISP all seem to run very nicely on the > machine. > > The problem we're experiencing with ALGOL appears to be a glaring compiler > bug, but the compiler was distributed widely through DECUS, and it is > difficult to imagine that it would have been released with an obvious bug, > I don't know if that's an accurate statement. Have you looked at Appendix E of the manual? There are a ton of errata there. For example, on page E-2: "Boolean operator 'AND' does not function properly at all times for example: T = true F = false T 'AND' T -> T Correct T 'AND' F -> T Wrong, should be F F 'AND' T -> T Wrong, should be F" The TSS/8 version of ALGOL fixes this bug but there are others. A friend of mine recently spent an evening trying to get a small ALGOL program to compile and run on my online TSS/8 system and failed utterly; after a lot of effort it finally compiles, but produces no output when run and we're both pretty stumped about it. We suspect that this compiler just has a lot of bugs. Note also that Appendix E (page E-1) suggests that ALL 'END' statements be followed by a ";". This seemed to help at least with getting the compiler to stop giving us errors. Note that despite this suggestion, the examples in Appendix E fail to follow this guideline. - Josh From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 04:45:31 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 03:45:31 -0700 Subject: Radio Shack 8MB hard disk for Model II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 6:22 PM dwight via cctalk wrote: > Is there a terminator on both ends. If not it is a static 15 ma. > There's a 220/330 terminator to +5V at both ends. The thevenin equivalent of one of these terminators is 132 ohms to +3V. A driver trying to pull this to 0V is going to have to provide 22.7 mA for a single terminator, but since it's doubly terminated, it will be 45.5 mA. They're only using 24mA rated drivers, which would be within spec if it wasn't doubly-terminated. SCSI uses double termination, but it also specifies minimum 48 mA drivers. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 4 09:17:26 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 10:17:26 -0500 Subject: Problems with FORT and ALGOL in TSS/8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B2276AE-105D-40CE-BB1D-861DEE6DC48D@comcast.net> > On Dec 4, 2020, at 12:38 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 6:13 PM Kevin Jordan via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> ... >> The problem we're experiencing with ALGOL appears to be a glaring compiler >> bug, but the compiler was distributed widely through DECUS, and it is >> difficult to imagine that it would have been released with an obvious bug, DECUS just distributed what it was given; there is no QA or review process. If the author submitted bad code, nothing DECUS would do would get in the way. > .... We suspect that this compiler just has a lot of bugs. > > Note also that Appendix E (page E-1) suggests that ALL 'END' statements be > followed by a ";". This seemed to help at least with getting the compiler > to stop giving us errors. Note that despite this suggestion, the examples > in Appendix E fail to follow this guideline. That's certainly a pretty bizarre suggestion. It's legal code either way, but in ALGOL (and PASCAL) semicolon is a separator, NOT a terminator, and the suggestion makes it appear that the authors don't understand the language well enough to know this. That clearly isn't a recipe for a reliable compiler. I thought ALGOL-11 (by Barry Folsom) was derived from ALGOL-8. Maybe that's a different ALGOL-8, or maybe I'm just confused. That ALGOL looks like a subset of Burroughs extended ALGOL. paul From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 4 14:40:31 2020 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 20:40:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Apple IIe case screws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1421982245.3957587.1607114431531@mail.yahoo.com> I believe they are 6-32 screws. Dave On Friday, August 7, 2020, 2:34:17 AM CDT, Gary Sparkes via cctalk wrote: Does anyone know the size/threading of these? I've been searching high and low and haven't been able to find any approximate or otherwise specs (they use captive clips, so close is OK) - i've found the PSU mounting screw sizes and sourced those though. -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 4 14:49:24 2020 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 20:49:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for Hazeltine 2000 keyboard References: <179424911.3962774.1607114964359.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <179424911.3962774.1607114964359@mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I just picked up a Hazeltine 2000c? terminal without the keyboard.? If anybody might happen to have (or know of) a spare Hazeltine 2000 keyboard, I would be very interested.? I realize it's a long shot. The keyboard is a standard ASCII keyboard, with several extra function keys and lights, so I'm pretty sure I can whip up a replacement, but the whole point is to recapture the original look and feel.? Back in the '70s, Memphis State (Now U of M) had a few of these terminals, and a great many Hazeltine 1500 terminals.? I've been hunting for a Hazeltine 2000 for ages.? It would be awesome to have one up and running. Dave From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 15:29:54 2020 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 16:29:54 -0500 Subject: Votrax Type N Talk or PSS, Intextalker, Microvox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We had our Votrax T&T on one of the spare ports of a Cromemco/Cromix system being used as a mail/BBS system; sort of a talking Caller ID announcing when various users logged in. Fun times... On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 8:38 PM Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > Oh.. That brings back memories. We had a Votrax with a serial interface in > the computer room. > I configured it as a printer so I could yell into the room.. > > echo Hey Alan. Look at the console and change the tape to the one requested > | lpr -Pvotrax > > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 8:24 PM Robert Stek via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > If anyone knows of an available unit (at considerably less than the $500 > > one on eBay), please let me know. I actually have one SC-01-A and would > > even take a unit missing the Votrax chip - I understand some units were > > scavenged for the chip for several video arcade machines which used them. > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 4 16:08:40 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 17:08:40 -0500 Subject: Votrax Type N Talk or PSS, Intextalker, Microvox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In response to the question about real-world applications of Votrax: My exposure to the Votrax was on a version of it (probably rather early -- 1977 I think) that was a small box connected as an add-on peripheral to the PLATO system terminals. The programming system included an API (set of TUTOR language commands) that effectively provided a text-to-speech service. At the time, text to speech for English was beyond the state of the art, or at least beyond the skill level of the people involved in that project. But they did have useable text to speech for German, Spanish, IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) and Esperanto. There also was a way to write English in a more phonetic manner that could then be spoken, called "WES", I don't know what that stands for. I saw a demo of this, it certainly worked. Pretty amusing to hear the computer say "Auf den Autobahnen gibt es keine Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzungen." I don't know if it was applied to any production applications ("lessons"). The software actually still exists, but it hasn't been revived. There is a CDC 6000 emulator that can run it, but the missing part is a Votrax emulation. Or an actual device that could be hooked to a PC, I suppose. paul From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Dec 4 16:34:07 2020 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 14:34:07 -0800 Subject: Al Lasher's electronics closing. Message-ID: One fewer place to obtain old stock components in the NorCal East Bay. https://www.berkeleyside.com/2020/12/03/lashers-electronics-berkeley-business-closing-covid-19-coronavirus -- Eric Korpela korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu AST:7731^29u18e3 From jpstewart at personalprojects.net Fri Dec 4 18:14:32 2020 From: jpstewart at personalprojects.net (John-Paul Stewart) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 19:14:32 -0500 Subject: WTD - Jupiter Ace plastic rivets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59220e73-810f-190a-686f-d5ece76536ca@personalprojects.net> On 2020-12-03 9:20 p.m., Philip Pemberton via cctalk wrote: > Has anyone got a couple of the white plastic rivets which are used to > hold the Jupiter Ace case together? > > They consist of a 4-point clawed rivet of about 5mm long, and a pin > which pushes down the centre to open it out. > > I need five of them ideally - but even two or three would get the case > buttoned up, if not perfectly. > > I've checked the local plastic supplier catalogues and haven't found > anything which quite matches up. Do any of these meet the required specifications? https://www.jetpress.com/component-and-fastener-products/expansion-plastic-rivet Also, try auto parts vendors. Similar plastic rivets are commonly used to hold trim panels in place. Some keywords to look for are "door panel retainer" or "bumper retainer". From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Fri Dec 4 12:53:57 2020 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 13:53:57 -0500 Subject: Boot Roms for MRV11-C Message-ID: The boot roms for the MXV11-B multifunction board can be used in the MRV11-D general purpose ROM q-bus board.? Neat if you want to put together a small system. I have a MRV11-C board and it differs from the MRV11-D board primarily in the ROM sockets, 24 pin on the MRV11-C and 28 pin on the MRV11-D so I can't use the MXV11-B ROM's directly. Can the MXV11-B ROM set be adapted for the MRV11-C board?? If not, what can you use as a bootstrap ROM set on the MRV11-C? Doug From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Dec 4 17:44:44 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2020 17:44:44 -0600 Subject: Al Lasher's electronics closing. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> On 12/04/2020 04:34 PM, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: > One fewer place to obtain old stock components in the NorCal East Bay. > > https://www.berkeleyside.com/2020/12/03/lashers-electronics-berkeley-business-closing-covid-19-coronavirus > > I'd never even heard of Lasher's. I'd been to most of the other bay area surplus electronics places. And, our one remaining place in St. Louis, Gateway Electronics has also closed recently. Jon From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Dec 5 01:12:20 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 23:12:20 -0800 Subject: Looking for Hazeltine 2000 keyboard In-Reply-To: <179424911.3962774.1607114964359@mail.yahoo.com> References: <179424911.3962774.1607114964359.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <179424911.3962774.1607114964359@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There was a Hazeltine 2000 which had been in use at Microdata which I discovered in a storage room in the late 70s.? When I turned it on, it had a logoff from 1971 on the screen from a very early version of Reality, the DBMS system they were selling.? I found and turned it back on and used it for a while in 1978. would be interesting if yours has the same sort of clue. Thanks Jim On 12/4/2020 12:49 PM, Dave via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > I just picked up a Hazeltine 2000c? terminal without the keyboard.? If anybody might happen to have (or know of) a spare Hazeltine 2000 keyboard, I would be very interested.? I realize it's a long shot. > The keyboard is a standard ASCII keyboard, with several extra function keys and lights, so I'm pretty sure I can whip up a replacement, but the whole point is to recapture the original look and feel.? Back in the '70s, Memphis State (Now U of M) had a few of these terminals, and a great many Hazeltine 1500 terminals.? I've been hunting for a Hazeltine 2000 for ages.? It would be awesome to have one up and running. > Dave > From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 00:41:32 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 22:41:32 -0800 Subject: Fire-Sale PDP-11 update (and request for parts) Message-ID: Thought you folks might be interested in a quick update on my folly here. At the beginning of November I drove down to the bay area to pick up the two fire-damaged PDP-11 systems -- a PDP-11/70 and a PDP-11/45. (I also made a few other stops and got a few other items, but that's not what I'm here to talk about...) Over the past few weeks I've gone over the two systems and my assessment is that the 11/70, while completely filthy, is completely restorable. The fire/heat damaged the front panel enough to discolor the plexi and start melting a few switches (http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/1170/1170.jpg) but that's the extent of the damage. My only fear is that the fingers on the backplanes might possibly have some corrosion here and there, but I've started going through and cleaning the boards and the backplane slots and so far I haven't run into anything that looks troubling. The 11/45 is considerably further gone. It took a serious amount of heat, enough for the pig iron frame for the front panel to start melting ( http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/1170/1145.jpg). The front panel is completely destroyed, as is the wiring harness for the power distribution. But... the metal of the chassis and the power supplies seems to have protected the boards and the backplane. There are no melted or even discolored wire-wrap wires on the backplane, and the boards look fine. As an experiment I took the non-11/45-specific boards out of the backplane (a Plessey memory board, an RL11 controller, and an M9301 bootstrap terminator -- this one was right up front where things were the hottest and the handles had started to melt) and tested them in my PDP-11/40. They all work fine. So I think that, maybe, with a LOT of effort, the 11/45 could live again. I'm tackling the 11/70 first (Al kindly sold me a new front panel for a very reasonable price so it already looks 100% better) and once I'm done with that I hope to move on to the 11/45. In the meantime I'm hoping to keep my eyes peeled for parts for the /45. I found a seller on eBay with "restored" H7420a power supplies for $68, with free shipping so I grabbed a pair. I realize this is unlikely, but I was curious if anyone has 1) any parts of the 11/45 power wiring harness, or 2) (really unlikely) an 11/45 front panel in any condition. Well, any condition better than "melted into slag," I suppose. I can build my own wiring harness, but if I can save myself the trouble, that'd be nice. - Josh From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 5 15:47:03 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 13:47:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Al Lasher's electronics closing. In-Reply-To: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: >> One fewer place to obtain old stock components in the NorCal East Bay. >> https://www.berkeleyside.com/2020/12/03/lashers-electronics-berkeley-business-closing-covid-19-coronavirus On Fri, 4 Dec 2020, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > I'd never even heard of Lasher's. I'd been to most of the other bay area > surplus electronics places. It was a classic professional supply place. Tell the guy behind the counter what you want, or hand over the list, and he would go back into what resembled library stacks. As opposed to surplus and/or retail self-serve wander the aisles and bring your basket to the register. There was a small browsing area up front, but most stock was behind the counter. SOME surplus stuff, but NOT a "look at what we just got in" that you would expect in a surplus outlet. "I want a DPDT spring return center off toggle switch with about a half inch long toggle" "36 220 Ohm half watt resistors" "got a molex connector like this one for 8" disk drive power?" Extremely well established. Prices were ordinary and acceptable. It was THE fall-back if Radio Shack didn't have what you needed, nor places like Quinn's, Electronics, Etc. More than half a century ago, there was a news mention of somebody under suspicion by HUAC (House Un-American Activities Committee) had been seen leaving a "known communist" organization upstairs at the same address. No idea whether Lasher himself was involved in politics. > And, our one remaining place in St. Louis, Gateway Electronics has also > closed recently. Will ANY remain? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 5 16:08:13 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 14:08:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Al Lasher's electronics closing. In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: The closure was inevitable; even without the pandemic, it wasn't going to survive much longer. Here's what it looked like: https://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/09/21/how-quirky-is-berkeley-lashers-electronics http://www.mcgeespauldingexhibit.org/index.php?section=The%20District%20Goes%20Radical From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Dec 5 16:19:39 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 17:19:39 -0500 Subject: Fire-Sale PDP-11 update (and request for parts) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 5, 2020, at 1:41 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > Thought you folks might be interested in a quick update on my folly here. > > At the beginning of November I drove down to the bay area to pick up the > two fire-damaged PDP-11 systems -- a PDP-11/70 and a PDP-11/45. (I also > made a few other stops and got a few other items, but that's not what I'm > here to talk about...) > ... > > The 11/45 is considerably further gone. It took a serious amount of heat, > enough for the pig iron frame for the front panel to start melting ( > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/1170/1145.jpg). It looks pretty bad, but it's not quite as bad as what your words suggest. I doubt that frame is iron. Consider that the rails of the rack are corroded but not visibly warped, let alone melted. I would guess the bezel is potmetal or some other low melting point cheap alloy. Potmetal is a zinc alloy, it melts very easily. paul From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Dec 5 16:26:31 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 17:26:31 -0500 Subject: Taking apart a Perq Message-ID: So I'm getting into the "I can see the box" layers in the excavation project, and I have a question: I've got a box that may be a Perq, and a printer that may be a Perq printer. The printer looks like an old Laserjet I, and the box is metal, 3ish feet tall, and has what looks like a 10 inch hard disk inside. Problem is I won't be able to get it up the steps. (Where have I heard that before). So how much can one take a Perq box apart to make it as light as possible? Is it simple to get the drive out? Power supply in there somewhere? How about the card cage? Pics at: https://i.imgur.com/ohuohvC.jpg https://i.imgur.com/81him0F.jpg From jim.manley at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 17:18:03 2020 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 16:18:03 -0700 Subject: Al Lasher's electronics closing. In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I spent many a happy visit to Al Lasher's when the microcomputing revolution was just turning over its starter in the SF Bay area. The acid in the oil/perspiration from my face is probably still etched in the windows of East Bay buildings that used to house IMSAI, CompuPro, etc. (assuming they're still even standing, which is not a good bet, given the crazy property values these days). I would peer in during stops while driving down to the East Bay on Sundays from the Navy Nuclear Power School at Mare Island Naval Shipyard, to look for the magic that was happening. The answer to Fred's question below about will any remain, is yes, as long as you consider Eastern Europe within commuting distance. You can still get vacuum tubes and core memory for a pittance from there, often with circuit boards having the appropriate sockets and edge connectors that make it a cinch to connect things together. The USAF SAGE (Semi-Automated Ground Environment) systems provided the ability to display, analyze, and share tracking data from the Distant Early Warning (DEW Line) radars in the Northern U.S., Canada, Greenland, Iceland, and the Faroe Islands, as well as shorter-range radars across the U.S., and directly control anti-aircraft missiles and interceptor aircraft via their autopilot. SAGE was in operation until the last station was decommissioned in 1984, but the U.S. had ceased production of vacuum tubes by the mid 1970s. So, through CIA-established front companies in Western Europe, tubes were purchased from commercial manufacturers in Warsaw Pact countries, especially Yugoslavia, Romania, and Bulgaria. EPrey is the usual route to find these suppliers, many of whom are also in Russia. That's hilarious when you consider that the local Communist group in Berkeley met in a rented space above Al's place (he was a WW-II vet), that the FBI monitored closely through the 1970s. As Russian comdeian Yakov Smirnov said, "In United States, you watch television, but in USSR, television watches _you_." Now, Amazon, Google, Apple, etc., provide that service to the highest bidders, at least in terms of where you surf the web, what you search for and buy, and so forth, if not outright "monetize" your Alexa/Echo, Hangouts, FaceTime, and other personal video and audio streams. All the Best, Jim KJ7JHE On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 2:47 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > Will ANY remain? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 17:21:24 2020 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 15:21:24 -0800 Subject: Al Lasher's electronics closing. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 2:34 PM Eric Korpela via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > One fewer place to obtain old stock components in the NorCal East Bay. > > > https://www.berkeleyside.com/2020/12/03/lashers-electronics-berkeley-business-closing-covid-19-coronavirus > > This was my hangout in the late 60's, before I transitioned from h/w to s/w. -- Charles From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 5 17:55:33 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 15:55:33 -0800 Subject: Al Lasher's electronics closing. In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4686ad4d-3e35-9e5b-6ca4-082c1f8ada8a@sydex.com> On 12/5/20 1:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Will ANY remain? So long as we no longer have domestic production of electronics, no. Remember when Steve Jobs swore that Macs were all going to be made in the USA and even set up plant in Fremont to make them? That didn't last long... --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 5 18:10:35 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 16:10:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Al Lasher's electronics closing. In-Reply-To: <4686ad4d-3e35-9e5b-6ca4-082c1f8ada8a@sydex.com> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <4686ad4d-3e35-9e5b-6ca4-082c1f8ada8a@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> Will ANY remain? On Sat, 5 Dec 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > So long as we no longer have domestic production of electronics, no. > Remember when Steve Jobs swore that Macs were all going to be made in > the USA and even set up plant in Fremont to make them? That didn't last > long... Woz told us (1983?) that Jobs had two obsessions: That Apple survive IBM That USA survive Japan. There were presumably OTHER obsessions, but those two were the relevant ones in the conversation. Japan in those presumably became China. We don't have domestic production, and we don't have repair. . . .and yet, almost all programming languages are still English oriented. Yes, there exist Chinese ports of COBOL compilers, Forth would seem to me to be a good choice for the postfix aspects of Japanese, . . . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From kenton at nemersonhoover.org Sat Dec 5 20:02:57 2020 From: kenton at nemersonhoover.org (Kenton A. Hoover) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 18:02:57 -0800 Subject: Al Lasher's electronics closing. In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: They weren't involved; Bob's dad used to rent the upstairs offices to a local political group because, well, money. Al Lasher's outlasted them though. Bob lost heart for the business after his sister Ellen died. Bob and Ellen had been talking about selling up or closing for years now, as business has been slowly but steadily declining. Bob owns the building, which is probably worth several million because it can be converted into multi-story housing. However he is sad about moving on. He's willing to sell out to anyone who wants to buy it, but I think you have to buy the building as part of the deal. He's got two working tube testers -- make an offer. -- Kenton A. Hoover kenton at nemersonhoover.org shibumi at mail.marchordie.org +1 415 830 5843 On Dec 5, 2020, 13:47 -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk , wrote: > > > One fewer place to obtain old stock components in the NorCal East Bay. > > > https://www.berkeleyside.com/2020/12/03/lashers-electronics-berkeley-business-closing-covid-19-coronavirus > > On Fri, 4 Dec 2020, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > I'd never even heard of Lasher's. I'd been to most of the other bay area > > surplus electronics places. > > It was a classic professional supply place. Tell the guy behind the > counter what you want, or hand over the list, and he would go back into > what resembled library stacks. As opposed to surplus and/or retail > self-serve wander the aisles and bring your basket to the register. > There was a small browsing area up front, but most stock was behind the > counter. SOME surplus stuff, but NOT a "look at what we just got in" that > you would expect in a surplus outlet. > > "I want a DPDT spring return center off toggle switch with about a half > inch long toggle" > "36 220 Ohm half watt resistors" > "got a molex connector like this one for 8" disk drive power?" > > > Extremely well established. > Prices were ordinary and acceptable. > It was THE fall-back if Radio Shack didn't have what you needed, nor > places like Quinn's, Electronics, Etc. > > > > More than half a century ago, there was a news mention of somebody under > suspicion by HUAC (House Un-American Activities Committee) had been seen > leaving a "known communist" organization upstairs at the same address. > No idea whether Lasher himself was involved in politics. > > > > > > And, our one remaining place in St. Louis, Gateway Electronics has also > > closed recently. > > Will ANY remain? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From w9gb at icloud.com Sat Dec 5 17:10:27 2020 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 17:10:27 -0600 Subject: [cctalk] WTD - Jupiter Ace plastic rivets Message-ID: <33512634-9425-4042-9BDA-1C3057CE0382@icloud.com> Phil - Search for Push-In Rivets (plastic, nylon, etc.). Two of the largest mfg. of plastic Push Rivets are just east (Richco, River Forest, IL) and north (Fastex, Des Plaines, IL) of me. Both have been acquired by larger conglomerates. ? Richco (River Forest) was bought by Essentra Components (UK) in December 2011. https://www.essentracomponents.com/en-us/s/push-in-rivets Global HQ for Essentra is in your neighborhood (Ask for Samples). Langford Locks Kidlington, Oxon, OX5 1HX United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 1865 844572 Fax: +44 (0) 1865 844488 orders at essentracomponents.co.uk www.essentracomponents.com/en-gb ==== ITW/Fastex : Push Rivets (Des Plaines, IL) acquired by Illinois Tool Works (ITW). https://www.itw-fastex.com/rivets.html == greg, Chicago === Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 02:20:55 +0000 From: Philip Pemberton To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: WTD - Jupiter Ace plastic rivets Has anyone got a couple of the white plastic rivets which are used to hold the Jupiter Ace case together? They consist of a 4-point clawed rivet of about 5mm long, and a pin which pushes down the centre to open it out. I need five of them ideally - but even two or three would get the case buttoned up, if not perfectly. I've checked the local plastic supplier catalogues and haven't found anything which quite matches up. Cheers, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk https://www.philpem.me.uk/ Sent from iPad Pro From bob at jfcl.com Sun Dec 6 12:19:24 2020 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 10:19:24 -0800 Subject: Gateway Electronics (was Al Lasher's electronics closing.) In-Reply-To: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> > Jon Elson >And, our one remaining place in St. Louis, Gateway Electronics has also closed recently. No - say it's not true!! I live in California but occasionally we drive cross country to visit my family in Indiana, and I always stopped there. We were last there in 2019... Bob From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Dec 6 13:07:42 2020 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2020 13:07:42 -0600 Subject: Fire-Sale PDP-11 update (and request for parts) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20201206190815.54FDE4E8D6@mx2.ezwind.net> At 12:41 AM 12/5/2020, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >Thought you folks might be interested in a quick update on my folly here. > >At the beginning of November I drove down to the bay area to pick up the >two fire-damaged PDP-11 systems -- a PDP-11/70 and a PDP-11/45. (I also >made a few other stops and got a few other items, but that's not what I'm >here to talk about...) Darn, I thought you'd tell some other tales of what Dale had in his warehouse. - John From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 6 13:37:19 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 11:37:19 -0800 Subject: Fire-Sale PDP-11 update (and request for parts) In-Reply-To: <20201206190815.54FDE4E8D6@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20201206190815.54FDE4E8D6@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 12/6/20 11:07 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > Darn, I thought you'd tell some other tales of what Dale had in > his warehouse. What would you like to know? Many of machines are there are from Eric Smith (DEC-20, PDP-12, etc. etc.) I won't go into the details of why Dale is selling them. I should have left my HP2100 boards there. I moved them to a shipping container which was broken into and anything with gold on it was stolen. Dale mostly has arcade games there. I gave my entire arcade collection to Dale and moved and scrapped most of my other stuff that was there over the past five years. From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Dec 6 17:11:25 2020 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 15:11:25 -0800 Subject: Fire-Sale PDP-11 update (and request for parts) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C8110DA-9C26-48EC-89D4-B3AC7A599769@fritzm.org> > On Dec 4, 2020, at 10:41 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > I realize this is unlikely, but I was curious if anyone has 1) any > parts of the 11/45 power wiring harness... I can build my own wiring harness, but if I can save > myself the trouble, that'd be nice. Yeah, I had build my own for my /45 restoration. It wasn't all that bad. Throw down for a nice ratcheting single-gesture crimp tool for the job and you'll be glad that you did :-) I found wirebarn.com had a nice selection of wire available in less-than-full-spool lengths, and most of the original colors. I may have had to fill in a few things from other suppliers (I found it helpful to stick to the original color coding.) Another tip is that the wire list you see in most of the /45 drawing sets is actually for the power harness, and not the backplane. The wire lengths in that list were useful; I cut to those lengths, then started on the regulator side of the harness, installed in the machine, and bundled and trimmed to length as I worked my way down the backplane. In the end I had a reasonably neat fit and very little wasted wire. I had the extra wrinkle of having the earlier (serial # <2000) power distribution system in my /45 (IIRC the wire list was from the newer system, but it wasn't too hard to adapt it.) Do you have the springy steel strip that supports the harness between the moving and stationary parts of the cabinet? That may require some fab or improvisation if not. I had one left over from an 11/40 that I was able to make work well enough with my older style cabinet. cheers, --FritzM. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Dec 6 20:24:55 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 21:24:55 -0500 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation Message-ID: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> As the excavation of Bob's junkpile continues I have finally hit the MFM layer. Specifically about 10 5.25 hard disks that look to be old style MFM drives. Vertex V150 Miniscribe 6085 ST 4038M Seagate Franklin telecom AT-40 Miniscribe 3650 HH Seagate ST4096 Priam ID45-H Rodime RO203E RD54 Real ST506 Pair of ST412's. Anyone recognize what kinds of systems may have used these? The RD54 is of course DEC, and I'm guessing the ST506 and 412's were from either a Rainbow or a Professional/350. But the rest are weird. Maybe Convergent miniframes? Probably not PC's as Bob had a lot of weird stuff. Thoughts? I'll see if I can get a mfm reader and suck data into files I can post for others to read/try/giggle at. But as there isn't much labelling I have no idea what is on them. Also did find Wordperfect and speller for what I think is Rainbow on 5.25 floppies. Let me know if you need a copy, or if a copy exists in archives (also two DEC disks for Learning the Rainbow or something like that) Chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 6 20:51:30 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 18:51:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Dec 2020, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > As the excavation of Bob's junkpile continues I have finally hit the MFM > layer. Specifically about 10 5.25 hard disks that look to be old style MFM > drives. > Vertex V150 > Miniscribe 6085 > ST 4038M Seagate Franklin telecom AT-40 > Miniscribe 3650 HH > Seagate ST4096 > Priam ID45-H > Rodime RO203E > RD54 > Real ST506 > Pair of ST412's. The Seagates were commodity drives, used in almost everything. Number is approximately the unformatted capacity. ST506 was 5MB formatted (305 Cyl x 2 heads) ; ST412 added buffered seek, was 10MB formatted (306 cyl x 4 heads). ST4096 was 80MB formatted. (1024 Cyl x 9 heads) For a long time, it was the most common of the largest drives in that form factor. I found out that 135W XT/AT power supplies were not always happy trying to run two of those at a time. XT/AT MFM had 17sectors per track; 512 bytes per sector. Drives formatted on a machine other than 5160/5170 are likely to be unreadable with 5160/5170. Drives formatted for a given XT controller were often incompatible with another XT controller. (Was some of that due to numbering sectors from 0 Vs from 1?) Drives formatted with an AT controller were normally usable on another AT controller. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 21:00:18 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 22:00:18 -0500 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: All IBM XT era drives. I have, have had or have given away at least one of these before. Find a good working ibm xt and a genetic controller with a manual and a copy of Spinrite software and test 'em. These are all stiction prone and bad cap vulnerable. Bill On Sun, Dec 6, 2020, 9:25 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > As the excavation of Bob's junkpile continues I have finally hit the MFM > layer. Specifically about 10 5.25 hard disks that look to be old style > MFM drives. > > Vertex V150 > Miniscribe 6085 > ST 4038M Seagate Franklin telecom AT-40 > Miniscribe 3650 HH > Seagate ST4096 > Priam ID45-H > Rodime RO203E > RD54 > Real ST506 > Pair of ST412's. > > Anyone recognize what kinds of systems may have used these? The RD54 is > of course DEC, and I'm guessing the ST506 and 412's were from either a > Rainbow or a Professional/350. But the rest are weird. Maybe Convergent > miniframes? Probably not PC's as Bob had a lot of weird stuff. > > Thoughts? I'll see if I can get a mfm reader and suck data into files I > can post for others to read/try/giggle at. But as there isn't much > labelling I have no idea what is on them. > > Also did find Wordperfect and speller for what I think is Rainbow on > 5.25 floppies. Let me know if you need a copy, or if a copy exists in > archives (also two DEC disks for Learning the Rainbow or something like > that) > > Chris > From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Dec 6 21:00:24 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 20:00:24 -0700 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 7:51 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 6 Dec 2020, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > As the excavation of Bob's junkpile continues I have finally hit the MFM > > layer. Specifically about 10 5.25 hard disks that look to be old style > MFM > > drives. > > Vertex V150 > > Miniscribe 6085 > > ST 4038M Seagate Franklin telecom AT-40 > > Miniscribe 3650 HH > > Seagate ST4096 > > Priam ID45-H > > Rodime RO203E > > RD54 > > Real ST506 > > Pair of ST412's. > > The Seagates were commodity drives, used in almost everything. > Number is approximately the unformatted capacity. > ST506 was 5MB formatted (305 Cyl x 2 heads) ; > ST412 added buffered seek, was 10MB formatted (306 cyl x 4 heads). > ST4096 was 80MB formatted. (1024 Cyl x 9 heads) For a long time, it was > the most common of the largest drives in that form factor. I found out > that 135W XT/AT power supplies were not always happy trying to run two of > those at a time. > > XT/AT MFM had 17sectors per track; 512 bytes per sector. > > Drives formatted on a machine other than 5160/5170 are likely to be > unreadable with 5160/5170. > Drives formatted for a given XT controller were often incompatible with > another XT controller. (Was some of that due to numbering sectors from 0 > Vs from 1?) > Drives formatted with an AT controller were normally usable on another AT > controller. > The mfm emulator at https://www.pdp8.net/mfm/mfm.shtml by David Gesswein will read them all, though... Warner From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 21:23:41 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 19:23:41 -0800 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 6:25 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > As the excavation of Bob's junkpile continues I have finally hit the MFM > layer. Specifically about 10 5.25 hard disks that look to be old style > MFM drives. > > Vertex V150 > Miniscribe 6085 > ST 4038M Seagate Franklin telecom AT-40 > Miniscribe 3650 HH > Seagate ST4096 > Priam ID45-H > Rodime RO203E > RD54 > Real ST506 > Pair of ST412's. > > Anyone recognize what kinds of systems may have used these? The RD54 is > of course DEC, and I'm guessing the ST506 and 412's were from either a > Rainbow or a Professional/350. But the rest are weird. Maybe Convergent > miniframes? Probably not PC's as Bob had a lot of weird stuff. > I'd suspect that at least a few of these were from PERQ systems, given their provenance. Vertex V150s and Miniscribes were commonly used in the T2 models. As another listmember mentioned, Dave Gesswein's MFM emulator will image these (and can decode PERQ hard drive formats.) (If you do manage to capture PERQ images, please let me know...) - Josh From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Dec 6 21:34:13 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 22:34:13 -0500 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: > I'd suspect that at least a few of these were from PERQ systems, given > their provenance.? Vertex V150s and Miniscribes were commonly used in > the T2 models.? As another listmember mentioned, Dave Gesswein's MFM > emulator will image these (and can decode PERQ hard drive formats.) Probably. I didn't realize Perqs used reasonable sized drives, there's a box there I've dug out with what looks like a transparent 8 inch drive that I will try to disassemble and get up the stairs next time. Think "dungeon" and "Y2" class steps.... > (If you do manage to capture PERQ images, please let me know...) Absolutely. I have yet more Perq manuals as well and floppies. Did Perqs only use 8 inch disks or should I keep eyes out for 5.25 as well? https://i.imgur.com/ohuohvC.jpg Chris From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 21:39:00 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 19:39:00 -0800 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 7:34 PM Chris Zach wrote: > > I'd suspect that at least a few of these were from PERQ systems, given > > their provenance. Vertex V150s and Miniscribes were commonly used in > > the T2 models. As another listmember mentioned, Dave Gesswein's MFM > > emulator will image these (and can decode PERQ hard drive formats.) > > Probably. I didn't realize Perqs used reasonable sized drives, there's a > box there I've dug out with what looks like a transparent 8 inch drive > that I will try to disassemble and get up the stairs next time. Think > "dungeon" and "Y2" class steps.... > Yeah, the later models used 5.25" media; the rare PERQ 2 used 8" Micropolis drives, and the PERQ 1/1A used 14" Shugart SA-4000 drives. > > > (If you do manage to capture PERQ images, please let me know...) > > Absolutely. I have yet more Perq manuals as well and floppies. Did Perqs > only use 8 inch disks or should I keep eyes out for 5.25 as well? > 8" floppy media exclusively. > > https://i.imgur.com/ohuohvC.jpg That's a 14" Shugart SA-4000, given that it came from Bob's basement, definitely a PERQ disk. Tough to read without a PERQ but there may be some options nearby you, if you manage to extract it from the basement. Make sure the spindle and heads are parked before moving. - Josh > > > Chris > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Dec 6 23:28:19 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 00:28:19 -0500 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <1cf7c859-9da5-926f-7b25-d7b4f2a2d78e@alembic.crystel.com> > Yeah, the later models used 5.25" media; the rare PERQ 2 used 8" > Micropolis drives, and the PERQ 1/1A used 14" Shugart SA-4000 drives. Ok, is there a picture of a Micropolis 8 inch anywhere? If so I can watch for it. The other oddball is the Miniframe, that box had no drives any idea what they might have used for that? > 8" floppy media exclusively. That helps. Couple of boxes of floppies I'll keep an eye out for more 8 inchers. > That's a 14" Shugart SA-4000, given that it came from Bob's basement, > definitely a PERQ disk.? Tough to read without a PERQ but there may be > some options nearby you, if you manage to extract it from the basement. > Make sure the spindle and heads are parked before moving. Ok. Is there typically other stuff in that box? If I can take the drive physically out and take the side skins off it might be light enough to get up the steps. I'll bring a set of screwdrivers on the next trip out and a nice head mounted lamp.... Finally what would be the priority of bringing out one of the printers? They look like LJ1 engines and those were heavy but movable. C From macro at linux-mips.org Mon Dec 7 05:28:53 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 11:28:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari ST diskettes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > If you don't get much response here, for many of whom I suspect the ST > is a bit modern, let me know and I can share it on some relevant > groups on FB for you. Anonymised or obscured as you prefer. Well, I guess for some anything that does not require you to toggle in the boot loader or doesn't have a teletype console terminal is surely too modern to even consider. Maciej From lproven at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 05:42:13 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:42:13 +0100 Subject: Atari ST diskettes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 2020 at 12:28, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > Well, I guess for some anything that does not require you to toggle in > the boot loader or doesn't have a teletype console terminal is surely too > modern to even consider. :-D One of the things I enjoy about this group is that some of the discussions and the memories make me feel young... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Dec 7 07:11:41 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 05:11:41 -0800 Subject: Gateway Electronics (was Al Lasher's electronics closing.) In-Reply-To: <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> Message-ID: On 12/6/2020 10:19 AM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: >> Jon Elson >> And, our one remaining place in St. Louis, Gateway Electronics has also closed recently. > No - say it's not true!! I live in California but occasionally we drive cross country to visit my family in Indiana, and I always stopped there. We were last there in 2019... > > Bob They didn't survive at their new location, too far for a lot of their steady customers to drive to. And for the back story, they were evicted by the landlord from their location on Page Ave & about 170 to allow the landlord to house a venture of some sort in all the suites in that building. Of course rather than a long lease which apparently was expected, the building and the suite is now empty.? Very sad state of affairs. There are sales of material still going on from their warehouse, but they are fairly advanced and a lot of material is gone. I was first taken there when they opened, in 60 or so.? So very sad to see it close. thanks Jim From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 7 08:40:19 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 08:40:19 -0600 Subject: Gateway Electronics (was Al Lasher's electronics closing.) In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> Message-ID: <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> Truly sad.... I don't think theres a store anywhere that I've spent more time in. I used to just sit in there for hours bs-ing with the owner. I wonder if "electronics exchange" on the Rock Road is still operational... J From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Dec 7 10:21:34 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 11:21:34 -0500 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 12/6/20 10:39 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > > Yeah, the later models used 5.25" media; the rare PERQ 2 used 8" Micropolis > drives, and the PERQ 1/1A used 14" Shugart SA-4000 drives. > Wow. 14"!! last time I saw one of those was on the Apollo that used to warm my house in the winter time. bill From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 7 11:00:51 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 09:00:51 -0800 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 12/7/20 8:21 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 12/6/20 10:39 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> Yeah, the later models used 5.25" media; the rare PERQ 2 used 8" >> Micropolis >> drives, and the PERQ 1/1A used 14" Shugart SA-4000 drives. >> > > > Wow. 14"!!? last time I saw one of those was on the Apollo that used > to warm my house in the winter time. Got an SA4006 sitting here in the shop with an IEEE-488 controller (done in SSI--the PCB has the same footprint as the drive). Haven't powered it up in about a decade, but it was working the last time I tried. You really missed out on the big disk drives, say, the old Bryant monsters with their 8 pound head assemblies and hydraulic leak bottles. For a long time, the CDC 808 disk drive was standard fare on CDC 6000--4 spindles spinning stacks of what must have been 30" disks, using an array of 6-bit parallel heads. About 7 feet tall and very reliable. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Dec 7 11:11:00 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 11:11:00 -0600 Subject: Gateway Electronics (was Al Lasher's electronics closing.) In-Reply-To: <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5FCE6224.6040800@pico-systems.com> On 12/07/2020 08:40 AM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > Truly sad.... I don't think theres a store anywhere that I've spent more time in. I used to just sit in there for hours bs-ing with the owner. > > I wonder if "electronics exchange" on the Rock Road is still operational... > > Bruce closed Electronics Exchange about 5 years ago, I think. He had his mom running day to day operations until she died or couldn't do it anymore. Bruce lost his hearing, so it was difficult to communicate with him after that. Jon From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Dec 7 11:39:34 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 10:39:34 -0700 Subject: Gateway Electronics (was Al Lasher's electronics closing.) In-Reply-To: <5FCE6224.6040800@pico-systems.com> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <5FCE6224.6040800@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 10:11 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 12/07/2020 08:40 AM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > > Truly sad.... I don't think theres a store anywhere that I've spent more > time in. I used to just sit in there for hours bs-ing with the owner. > > > > I wonder if "electronics exchange" on the Rock Road is still > operational... > > > > > Bruce closed Electronics Exchange about 5 years ago, I > think. He had his mom running day to day operations until > she died or couldn't do it anymore. Bruce lost his hearing, > so it was difficult to communicate with him after that. > We've had at least two stores in the Boulder/Longmont area that have evolved from awesome to lame / closed in the last 30 years... I miss the consignment area to browse in. Great test gear from time to time,but they shied away from old computer gear (The CU boneyard / annual auctions were good for that, but lately have been lame). On the other hand, we have grown Sparkfun in Gunbarrel now which I can either pick stuff up in person, or get things shipped to my house. Their internet reach keeps them in business, and the local convenience of same-day pickup (in normal times anyway) is nice. Warner From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Dec 7 12:29:24 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 13:29:24 -0500 Subject: Gateway Electronics (was Al Lasher's electronics closing.) In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <5FCE6224.6040800@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 12/7/20 12:39 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 10:11 AM Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 12/07/2020 08:40 AM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: >>> Truly sad.... I don't think theres a store anywhere that I've spent more >> time in. I used to just sit in there for hours bs-ing with the owner. >>> >>> I wonder if "electronics exchange" on the Rock Road is still >> operational... >>> >>> >> Bruce closed Electronics Exchange about 5 years ago, I >> think. He had his mom running day to day operations until >> she died or couldn't do it anymore. Bruce lost his hearing, >> so it was difficult to communicate with him after that. >> > > We've had at least two stores in the Boulder/Longmont area that have > evolved from awesome to lame / closed in the last 30 years... I miss the > consignment area to browse in. Great test gear from time to time,but they > shied away from old computer gear (The CU boneyard / annual auctions were > good for that, but lately have been lame). > > On the other hand, we have grown Sparkfun in Gunbarrel now which I can > either pick stuff up in person, or get things shipped to my house. Their > internet reach keeps them in business, and the local convenience of > same-day pickup (in normal times anyway) is nice. > In my younger days (I started building electronics stuff when I was nine!) we used to have a number of parts jobbers in Wilkes-Barre and even more in Scranton. Even had one in the Borough of Kingston, where I actually lived, that catered to hobbyists like Hams. All gone now for at least three decades. bill From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 7 12:32:01 2020 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 10:32:01 -0800 Subject: Atari ST diskettes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 2020-12-07 at 12:42 +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 7 Dec 2020 at 12:28, Maciej W. Rozycki > wrote: > > Well, I guess for some anything that does not require you to > > toggle inthe boot loader or doesn't have a teletype console > > terminal is surely toomodern to even consider. > > :-D > One of the things I enjoy about this group is that some of > thediscussions and the memories make me feel young... The first computer I was paid to write software for didn't require me to toggle in a boot loader: The IBM 1401 in 1966. All I had to do was push the load key on the card reader, or the tape load key on the operator console. And it didn't even have a teletype console. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 7 12:32:36 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 13:32:36 -0500 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <733FE51C-F597-4225-9EE8-58A76D267842@comcast.net> > On Dec 7, 2020, at 12:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/7/20 8:21 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> Wow. 14"!! last time I saw one of those was on the Apollo that used >> to warm my house in the winter time. > ... > For a long time, the CDC 808 disk drive was standard fare on CDC 6000--4 > spindles spinning stacks of what must have been 30" disks, using an > array of 6-bit parallel heads. About 7 feet tall and very reliable. I know of the 6603, is that a controller and the 808 is the drive? Pretty amazing drive. 12 bit parallel transfer, so the data rate was way faster than any other drive of that era (1964 or so). It also did "zone recording" (more sectors per track on the outer tracks) well before that showed up in other drives. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 7 12:36:47 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 13:36:47 -0500 Subject: Atari ST diskettes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93006FEB-89B3-4460-AB0F-294E069E1A0E@comcast.net> > On Dec 7, 2020, at 1:32 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 2020-12-07 at 12:42 +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> On Mon, 7 Dec 2020 at 12:28, Maciej W. Rozycki >> wrote: >>> Well, I guess for some anything that does not require you to >>> toggle inthe boot loader or doesn't have a teletype console >>> terminal is surely toomodern to even consider. >> >> :-D >> One of the things I enjoy about this group is that some of >> thediscussions and the memories make me feel young... > > The first computer I was paid to write software for didn't require me > to toggle in a boot loader: The IBM 1401 in 1966. Then there was the CDC 6000 series, where the boot loader was simply a matrix of switches, 144 switches in 12 rows of 12. You'd mostly just set it once and leave it alone, except that the field service boot code was slightly different so one or two rows had to be changed back after the early morning daily field service run. paul From ethan at 757.org Mon Dec 7 12:57:00 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 13:57:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 Message-ID: Looking for a RAM 17 for my IMSAI 8080 to replace 6 x 8K boards. -- : Ethan O'Toole From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 7 13:16:53 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 11:16:53 -0800 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: <733FE51C-F597-4225-9EE8-58A76D267842@comcast.net> References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> <733FE51C-F597-4225-9EE8-58A76D267842@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 12/7/20 10:32 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > I know of the 6603, is that a controller and the 808 is the drive? The 6603 was the controller for the Bryant drive--I don't know if the Bryant drive had an 800-series number. But it used zoned recording. The 808's controller was the 6638. I still have a head from an 808, salvaged from the detritus where the CEs were taking hammers and bolt cutters to one (thank you Bill Norris). I used to have a platter as well, but that went by the wayside during a move. A good description of the unit is in bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/peripheralCtlr/60196200_6638_Disk_File_System_808_Disk_File_Reference_Dec66.pdf I exaggerated a bit--the 808 was more than 6 feet, but less than 7 feet tall (77 inches). I recall only that I never saw the top of one without a ladder. The 808 had a relative, the 821, with about 4x capacity. Other than for internal testing and RFP responses, I don't think it was ever released externally. Basically 808-sized. Had a terrible tendency to go offline at the most inconvenient times. Mike Miller on the original Special Systems AF Logistics project saved the contract by doing a sprint during the timed benchmark to punch a button on one that had gone offline. The 821 never made it into the final contract; it was replaced by many of the then-new 844 removable-media drives. Apparently, lots of small drives were cheaper to source than monster drives. --Chuck > > Pretty amazing drive. 12 bit parallel transfer, so the data rate was way faster than any other drive of that era (1964 or so). It also did "zone recording" (more sectors per track on the outer tracks) well before that showed up in other drives From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 7 13:21:55 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 11:21:55 -0800 Subject: Atari ST diskettes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38604c86-f72b-2326-a7c3-bc54aa55a968@sydex.com> On 12/7/20 10:32 AM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > The first computer I was paid to write software for didn't require me > to toggle in a boot loader: The IBM 1401 in 1966. > > All I had to do was push the load key on the card reader, or the tape > load key on the operator console. And it didn't even have a teletype > console. The contemporaneous 1620 had it both ways--one could type in the loader on the console typewriter (hit the Release key when done) or by pressing the console LOAD key, could read a record from either card or paper tape into 00000-00079. On the CADET, one of the first things that most loaders did was to have a small routine to read in the addition and multiplication tables. If you're going to do any arithmetic at all, you'd better have those! --Chuck From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 7 13:50:33 2020 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 11:50:33 -0800 Subject: Atari ST diskettes In-Reply-To: <38604c86-f72b-2326-a7c3-bc54aa55a968@sydex.com> References: <38604c86-f72b-2326-a7c3-bc54aa55a968@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4f82e3936cfe8748faa2c9cd5e599f6f22cc1264.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Mon, 2020-12-07 at 11:21 -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/7/20 10:32 AM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > > > The first computer I was paid to write software for didn't require me > > to toggle in a boot loader: The IBM 1401 in 1966. > > > > All I had to do was push the load key on the card reader, or the tape > > load key on the operator console. And it didn't even have a teletype > > console. > > The contemporaneous 1620 had it both ways--one could type in the loader > on the console typewriter (hit the Release key when done) or by pressing > the console LOAD key, could read a record from either card or paper tape > into 00000-00079. On the CADET, one of the first things that most > loaders did was to have a small routine to read in the addition and > multiplication tables. If you're going to do any arithmetic at all, > you'd better have those! > > --Chuck One of my friends changed the tables in a 1620 to do octal arithmetic, for telemetry processing. Speaking of those tables, do you remember why the 1620 was called CADET? Not because it was a "beginner's" or "novice" computer. It was an acronym for "Can't Add; Doesn't Even Try." The Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California has a 1620 that worked for a time. They had a problem with cooling the core memory, which they could probably repair. They didn't get a 1622 card reader/punch, so they connected it to a PC -- which makes the appropriate noises. When Professor Maniotis retired from Purdue University, he gave two 20-drawer card cabinets of 1620 software to CHM. CHM also has two working IBM 1401's. Their cool address is 1401 Shoreline Blvd. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 7 14:15:18 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 15:15:18 -0500 Subject: Atari ST diskettes In-Reply-To: <4f82e3936cfe8748faa2c9cd5e599f6f22cc1264.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <38604c86-f72b-2326-a7c3-bc54aa55a968@sydex.com> <4f82e3936cfe8748faa2c9cd5e599f6f22cc1264.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <6A34359E-0CF6-4119-9E41-2F87A0F00AFA@comcast.net> > On Dec 7, 2020, at 2:50 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > >> ... > > One of my friends changed the tables in a 1620 to do octal arithmetic, > for telemetry processing. > > Speaking of those tables, do you remember why the 1620 was called > CADET? Not because it was a "beginner's" or "novice" computer. It was > an acronym for "Can't Add; Doesn't Even Try." The Model II added hardware add/multiply. > The Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California has a 1620 > that worked for a time. They had a problem with cooling the core > memory, which they could probably repair. Or perhaps heating. I remember that our college 1620 Model II needed a couple of minutes after power-on before it would be willing to operate; supposedly that time was spent waiting for the heaters in the core memory to bring it up to operating temperature. Apparently timing and/or signal levels in core memory are fairly sensitive to temperature, so keeping them consistent is helpful. It isn't common to select a temperature well above ambient and use heaters to do that, but it isn't totally strange. paul From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 7 14:17:15 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:17:15 -0800 Subject: Atari ST diskettes In-Reply-To: <4f82e3936cfe8748faa2c9cd5e599f6f22cc1264.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <38604c86-f72b-2326-a7c3-bc54aa55a968@sydex.com> <4f82e3936cfe8748faa2c9cd5e599f6f22cc1264.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 12/7/20 11:50 AM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > One of my friends changed the tables in a 1620 to do octal arithmetic, > for telemetry processing. > > Speaking of those tables, do you remember why the 1620 was called > CADET? Not because it was a "beginner's" or "novice" computer. It was > an acronym for "Can't Add; Doesn't Even Try." That was the Model I; the Model II had the math tables hardwired. Several options were available (and required for some software), such as indirect addressing and hardware floating point. A close relative was the 1710; basically a 1620 with interrupts, real-time clock and various options for ADC/DAC interfaces for process control. I believe that binary arithmetic was also an option, but I'd have to check. Dijkstra developed a dislike for the thing pretty early on. One of his big gripes was that you can't write (to peripherals) everything that you read. The other gripe was that there were certain "untouchable" characters that you could neither test for nor use in arithmetic nor create, except by reading them (e.g. numeric blank, 8-4 punch). The standard disk drive was the 1311. As much as the haters bashed it, it was a pretty reliable workhorse for the time and a great system for learning fundamentals. (absolutely uniform instruction layout; no user-addressable registers--all memory-to-memory), decimal and no fixed word length. I remember the 1620 SPS coding forms--on one side, cards marked out in columns for SPS; on the other, the so-called "Absolute Coding System", which was nothing more than plain machine code. The 1622 even during its salad days was prone to overheating and punch-check errors. One of the hazards running the card-based (no disk) FORTRAN compiler. Was there ever a magnetic tape drive for the 1620? I don't recall ever hearing about any. That alone would make it unique among IBM offerings--card and disk, but no tape. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 7 14:30:10 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:30:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > You really missed out on the big disk drives, say, the old Bryant > monsters with their 8 pound head assemblies and hydraulic leak bottles. I have a single, slightly damaged RAMAC platter. It is only 24" diameter, but when I showed it to my students, and then mentioned it later, they tended to remember it as being "three or four FEET" diameter. When Nikita Krushchev visited America more than 60 years ago in order to try to de-escalate the cold war, they wouldn't let him go to Disneyland! So, to "make up for that", they took him to San Jose to the IBM plant to see the first RAMAC drives. I have gotten a patio table base for the platter, and now need to get a cover glass for it, to use it as a table. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 7 14:53:21 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:53:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari ST diskettes In-Reply-To: <38604c86-f72b-2326-a7c3-bc54aa55a968@sydex.com> References: <38604c86-f72b-2326-a7c3-bc54aa55a968@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> The first computer I was paid to write software for didn't require me >> to toggle in a boot loader: The IBM 1401 in 1966. On Mon, 7 Dec 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > The contemporaneous 1620 had it both ways--one could type in the loader > on the console typewriter (hit the Release key when done) or by pressing > the console LOAD key, could read a record from either card or paper tape > into 00000-00079. On the CADET, one of the first things that most > loaders did was to have a small routine to read in the addition and > multiplication tables. If you're going to do any arithmetic at all, > you'd better have those! The 1620 that I had access to had PDQ ("pretty Damn Quick"?) FORTRAN, and a 1401 emulator! Being students, not administrators, we had VERY limited access to the 1401, but unlimited access to the 1620, and learned 1401 machine language on the 1620. VERY limited memory, but you could use the input and output buffers as RAM when you weren't reading nor writing. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 7 15:07:35 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 13:07:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > For a long time, the CDC 808 disk drive was standard fare on CDC 6000--4 > spindles spinning stacks of what must have been 30" disks, using an > array of 6-bit parallel heads. About 7 feet tall and very reliable. Several sources said 26", but one said 39" 26" sounds about right, and is even bigger than the RAMAC (24"). 39" platter would make a good dining rooom table, instead of patio table. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 7 15:23:59 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 16:23:59 -0500 Subject: Atari ST diskettes In-Reply-To: References: <38604c86-f72b-2326-a7c3-bc54aa55a968@sydex.com> <4f82e3936cfe8748faa2c9cd5e599f6f22cc1264.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 7, 2020, at 3:17 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/7/20 11:50 AM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > >> One of my friends changed the tables in a 1620 to do octal arithmetic, >> for telemetry processing. >> >> Speaking of those tables, do you remember why the 1620 was called >> CADET? Not because it was a "beginner's" or "novice" computer. It was >> an acronym for "Can't Add; Doesn't Even Try." > > That was the Model I; the Model II had the math tables hardwired. > Several options were available (and required for some software), such as > indirect addressing and hardware floating point. A close relative was > the 1710; basically a 1620 with interrupts, real-time clock and various > options for ADC/DAC interfaces for process control. I believe that > binary arithmetic was also an option, but I'd have to check. > > Dijkstra developed a dislike for the thing pretty early on. One of his > big gripes was that you can't write (to peripherals) everything that you > read. The other gripe was that there were certain "untouchable" > characters that you could neither test for nor use in arithmetic nor > create, except by reading them (e.g. numeric blank, 8-4 punch). I remember him writing (dismissively) about the 1620, don't remember him discussing the 1710. The 1620's obvious issue, apart from the ones you mentioned, is the blocking I/O. Can't write a multiprogramming system on such a machine. Dijkstra worked on the first commercial machine that had interrupts standard (the Electrologica X-1). So he knew how to use and benefit from interrupts; his Ph.D. thesis is an example. > The standard disk drive was the 1311. I remember those. Ours had two, and a disk O/S that used them. ("Monitor II"?) One day the system drive developed a leak, spraying hydraulic oil all over the system pack. IBM repaired the leak, bled the hydraulics, and cleaned the pack and heads (with high purity isopropyl alcohol I scrounged from the chemistry department stock room). Booted up fine afterwards. Don't try that with modern disk drives. :-) > As much as the haters bashed it, it was a pretty reliable workhorse for > the time and a great system for learning fundamentals. (absolutely > uniform instruction layout; no user-addressable registers--all > memory-to-memory), decimal and no fixed word length. > ... > Was there ever a magnetic tape drive for the 1620? I don't recall ever > hearing about any. That alone would make it unique among IBM > offerings--card and disk, but no tape. Not that I know of. They did offer paper tape, though that wasn't on ours. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 7 15:27:53 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 13:27:53 -0800 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: <1cf7c859-9da5-926f-7b25-d7b4f2a2d78e@alembic.crystel.com> References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> <1cf7c859-9da5-926f-7b25-d7b4f2a2d78e@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <5452e270-793d-406c-3e69-a90fc97d5ad1@bitsavers.org> On 12/6/20 9:28 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Ok, is there a picture of a Micropolis 8 inch anywhere? there is a drawing on page 26 of the 1200 series design spec on bitsavers to the first order, it's a pot metal brick about 8" x 10" x 3" with a logic board on the top From mail at schnitz.com Mon Dec 7 15:45:51 2020 From: mail at schnitz.com (Tom Owad) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 16:45:51 -0500 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <6BCC8B07-8E81-4C00-BB83-8FD04CF60548@schnitz.com> > On Dec 7, 2020, at 12:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > You really missed out on the big disk drives, say, the old Bryant > monsters with their 8 pound head assemblies and hydraulic leak bottles. I have a Bryant platter on the wall of my office, but I?m not old enough to have seen it operational. 39? diameter, 1/4? thick, made of magnesium. It came out of Collins Radio Company in Cedar Rapids, IA. I just resubscribed after not being active for a few years. It?s great to be back! Tom From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Dec 7 15:50:14 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 16:50:14 -0500 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: <5452e270-793d-406c-3e69-a90fc97d5ad1@bitsavers.org> References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> <1cf7c859-9da5-926f-7b25-d7b4f2a2d78e@alembic.crystel.com> <5452e270-793d-406c-3e69-a90fc97d5ad1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <278a6dfd-b759-fe81-1d5d-ca314136589e@alembic.crystel.com> Ok, so like a 2322 Fujitsu SMD drive then? I'll keep eyes peeled. C On 12/7/2020 4:27 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 12/6/20 9:28 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> Ok, is there a picture of a Micropolis 8 inch anywhere? > there is a drawing on page 26 of the 1200 series design spec on bitsavers > > to the first order, it's a pot metal brick about 8" x 10" x 3" with a logic > board on the top > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 7 16:38:08 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:38:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: <6BCC8B07-8E81-4C00-BB83-8FD04CF60548@schnitz.com> References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> <6BCC8B07-8E81-4C00-BB83-8FD04CF60548@schnitz.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 2020, Tom Owad via cctalk wrote: > I have a Bryant platter on the wall of my office, but I?m not old > enough to have seen it operational. 39? diameter, 1/4? thick, made > of magnesium. It came out of Collins Radio Company in Cedar Rapids, IA. Beautiful pictures https://www.applefritter.com/content/largest-and-smallest-hard-drives-ever-made > I just resubscribed after not being active for a few years. It?s great > to be back! Welcome back -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Dec 7 17:28:00 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 15:28:00 -0800 Subject: Gateway Electronics (was Al Lasher's electronics closing.) In-Reply-To: <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 12/7/2020 6:40 AM, jwest at classiccmp.org wrote: > Truly sad.... I don't think theres a store anywhere that I've spent more time in. I used to just sit in there for hours bs-ing with the owner. > > I wonder if "electronics exchange" on the Rock Road is still operational... > > J I uploaded an obit for Stu Bartfeld the owner who passed.? His daughter Lisa ran it up to its closing. https://imgur.com/a/IryJyrR https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/36561205/stuart-bartfeld https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/iyh9e7/gateway_electronics_closing_end_of_october/ https://www.facebook.com/gatewayelectronics https://twitter.com/gatewayelex?lang=en?? (lot of very old material) Don't know if the copyright police will grab it and kill the link or ban me, so get it while it's hot (if it is even visible when I send this). I tried to remember the guy who always remembered me (only got there yearly for quite some time), I think it was Doug.? Someone correct me if not. for those in Colorado, their address was (that I found now) was. GATEWAY ELECTRONICS 2525 FEDERAL BLVD , Denver, Colorado For those of you who remember ACP and Tom and Dave Freeman, they were part of a group of guys who traded surplus electonics.? I always called it "schlock" electronics.? That business ran with all of them faxing each other (in later years) then emailing haves and needs and everyone made a buck selling lots. Tom knew Stu and did a lot of business with him.? I still remember visiting with Tom one day and hearing that Stu had passed away. They saw each other quite a lot since Stu had a San Diego operation as well as thru their business dealings. I got Bob Armstrong in touch with Tom to do a buy for one of the rounds of the 6120 boards.? After Stu passed, but Tom was still trading and selling up to a few years ago. Amazing what a small world it is.? I'm guessing since retail slump caused Gateway to close they weren't doing a lot of surplus to sustain thru troughs in the retail biz as they had in the past. Thanks Jim From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 7 18:10:27 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 18:10:27 -0600 Subject: Gateway Electronics (was Al Lasher's electronics closing.) In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> Jim wrote... I tried to remember the guy who always remembered me (only got there yearly for quite some time), I think it was Doug. Someone correct me if not. It was Doug. He always recognized me and said something the moment I walked in the door. Then again, I was there about once a week for years just to browse and stay up on what all he had. I don't think there is any place like that anymore for St. Louis. J From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 7 18:21:30 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 16:21:30 -0800 Subject: Gateway Electronics (was Al Lasher's electronics closing.) In-Reply-To: <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 12/7/20 4:10 PM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > I don't think there is any place like that anymore for St. Louis. Wasn't there a big place in KC just of I70? At the end they were selling on eBay. I remember going there a couple of times, multi-story building you had to drive down into the river valley to get to. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 7 18:52:11 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 18:52:11 -0600 Subject: Gateway Electronics (was Al Lasher's electronics closing.) In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> Aek wrote... > Wasn't there a big place in KC just of I70? > At the end they were selling on eBay. > > I remember going there a couple of times, multi-story building you had to drive down into the river valley to get to. Sorry, drawing a blank on that one. Bet Jim knows.... There were a few electronic dumps in STL. One I'm thinking of was a property of abandoned factory buildings stuffed with off-lease or scrapped (not sure where he got it all) electric & electronic stuff, the guy would sell you anything for a $20 bill or so. It was right on broadway & 70 by the historic cemetery. It was quite the place. Everything from Union Electric power station pieces, to barrels of vic20s, to 11/23s, to pallets and pallets of at&t 3b2s. The buildings were literally falling open. Most walls were gone, 20 foot open holes in the floors, it was most definitely not a safe place to walk around. Many places you had to walk/climb across girders to get to another section of floor where stuff was just stacked. Major portions were open to rain, but you could still find big sections that were safe. I know at least six of the 3b2's made their way to a fellow listmember. Don't ask, there's nothing there anymore. I think it was a few years back I noticed there was a wrecking ball and the entire building was leveled. That was one of my best spots. I bet the EPA had no idea what was there. Another of my fave spots was at 40/64 and Jefferson, about a block north/east of the AG Edwards complex. They took in anything electronic, did initial breakdown and categorization, and shipped big bins to china. It was 3 stories, each was open floor just jammed with hundreds of large printers, photo developing machines, hard drives (a bunch of RD50 compatible drives made it from there to fellow listmembers, there was quite the run on those), heavy duty lab equipment, etc. This place was gutted and turned into office space years ago. The only place I think may still be left is a place right next door (attached) to the big goodwill center downtown. Haven't been there in a couple years, but they did have interesting computer stuff there. I'm curious if the other St. Louis members knew of these same places. I suspected I was the only one hunting them... J From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Dec 7 20:44:16 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 18:44:16 -0800 Subject: Gateway Electronics (was Al Lasher's electronics closing.) In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8293382b-9a6f-d0e1-7c0e-b8d8dc58867d@jwsss.com> On 12/7/2020 4:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 12/7/20 4:10 PM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > >> I don't think there is any place like that anymore for St. Louis. > > Wasn't there a big place in KC just of I70? > At the end they were selling on eBay. > That might have be my pile which is in a warehouse "off I 70"? :-) > I remember going there a couple of times, multi-story building you > had to drive down into the river valley to get to For electronic surplus, there was some stuff at a place called Frank's metal.? They got the stuff from the Olathe and Lenexa places.? Main junk sources there at various times would be Garmin, Sprint, and some of the aircraft places related to Cessna. All the places I went to in KC were gone by about 1980.? Bendix Surplus and a guy in Merriam were the best electronic sources. I bought mainly camera stuff, with C&J Photographic in Overland Park being the best place in KC at the time.? Charlie Capen has been gone since 1990 though, too. I might actually open my warehouse when I get moved there, but fact is there's little manufacturing producing interesting surplus anymore much.? And "Asset Recovery" and Electronics? recycling laws really have fouled the water for much good stuff to be had for any operations like Gateway. There's also a place in Independence which gets most all of the "lost" freight from Yellow Freight system.? It's not really a surplus operation.? Called locally "Cargo Largo". I really looked forward to visiting Gateway and Bruce @ Electronics Surplus Exchange (which among my circle who went every year we called "junky Electronics". thanks Jim From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Dec 7 20:51:16 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 19:51:16 -0700 Subject: Gateway Electronics (was Al Lasher's electronics closing.) In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2020, 5:21 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 12/7/20 4:10 PM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > > > I don't think there is any place like that anymore for St. Louis. > > Wasn't there a big place in KC just of I70? > At the end they were selling on eBay. > > I remember going there a couple of times, multi-story building you > had to drive down into the river valley to get to. > Yup. I went there a couple of times as well when I lived in KC. On the Missouri side of town... Warner > From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Dec 7 20:59:08 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 19:59:08 -0700 Subject: Gateway Electronics (was Al Lasher's electronics closing.) In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2020, 4:28 PM jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/7/2020 6:40 AM, jwest at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Truly sad.... I don't think theres a store anywhere that I've spent more > time in. I used to just sit in there for hours bs-ing with the owner. > > > > I wonder if "electronics exchange" on the Rock Road is still > operational... > > > > J > I uploaded an obit for Stu Bartfeld the owner who passed. His daughter > Lisa ran it up to its closing. > > https://imgur.com/a/IryJyrR > > https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/36561205/stuart-bartfeld > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/iyh9e7/gateway_electronics_closing_end_of_october/ > > https://www.facebook.com/gatewayelectronics > > https://twitter.com/gatewayelex?lang=en (lot of very old material) > > Don't know if the copyright police will grab it and kill the link or ban > me, so get it while it's hot (if it is even visible when I send this). > > I tried to remember the guy who always remembered me (only got there > yearly for quite some time), I think it was Doug. Someone correct me if > not. > > for those in Colorado, their address was (that I found now) was. > GATEWAY ELECTRONICS > 2525 FEDERAL BLVD , > Denver, Colorado > Ah yes. Only went there once, much to my shame... wasn't in the best part of town and I was 45 minutes away... nice place otherwise. I usually found what I needed up in Boulder at JB Saunders, though, so I didn't get down to Gateway much. Though JB Saunders has closed too. At least there is sparcfun. No browsing, but has all the parts I need. Warner For those of you who remember ACP and Tom and Dave Freeman, they were > part of a group of guys who traded surplus electonics. I always called > it "schlock" electronics. That business ran with all of them faxing > each other (in later years) then emailing haves and needs and everyone > made a buck selling lots. > > Tom knew Stu and did a lot of business with him. I still remember > visiting with Tom one day and hearing that Stu had passed away. They saw > each other quite a lot since Stu had a San Diego operation as well as > thru their business dealings. > > I got Bob Armstrong in touch with Tom to do a buy for one of the rounds > of the 6120 boards. After Stu passed, but Tom was still trading and > selling up to a few years ago. > > Amazing what a small world it is. I'm guessing since retail slump > caused Gateway to close they weren't doing a lot of surplus to sustain > thru troughs in the retail biz as they had in the past. > > Thanks > Jim > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Dec 7 21:07:42 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 21:07:42 -0600 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: <6BCC8B07-8E81-4C00-BB83-8FD04CF60548@schnitz.com> References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> <6BCC8B07-8E81-4C00-BB83-8FD04CF60548@schnitz.com> Message-ID: <5FCEEDFE.6050703@pico-systems.com> On 12/07/2020 03:45 PM, Tom Owad via cctalk wrote: > I have a Bryant platter on the wall of my office, but I?m > not old enough to have seen it operational. 39? diameter, > 1/4? thick, made of magnesium. It came out of Collins > Radio Company in Cedar Rapids, IA. I have a 30" platter from an old accounting machine. I think it had 64 fixed heads. I did some experiments with it but decided the data capacity was so low that it was not worth spending time trying to cobble up a controller. it is possible the data rate could be increased quite a bit, but maybe the heads flew so high, or had such wide gaps that it couldn't be pushed. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Dec 7 21:17:11 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 21:17:11 -0600 Subject: Gateway Electronics (was Al Lasher's electronics closing.) In-Reply-To: <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> On 12/07/2020 06:52 PM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > I'm curious if the other St. Louis members knew of these > same places. I suspected I was the only one hunting them... J Shapiro Supply used to have a place in the city of St. Louis on Pennsylvania avenue, in the shadow of the Carter Carburetor superfund site. They mostly dealt in scrap metal, but had a modest pile of test gear and such from McDonnell and Emerson bids. I got a few things from them. After they moved a half mile or so NorthEast, they seemed to get much more into the industrial supply of non-ferrous metal, and the interesting surplus lots seemed to be much sparser. They do still have some bits and pieces in the basement. I haven't been there in a couple of years, I think. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 7 21:32:36 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 19:32:36 -0800 Subject: Gateway Electronics (was Al Lasher's electronics closing.) In-Reply-To: <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: As much fun as the Silicon Valley surplus outlets were, I don't think any could hold a candle to the old post WWII surplus outlets. I think John Meshna was the last of those. My favorite was "surplus row" on S. Michigan Ave. in Chicago. I know that New York had a similar electronics slum... --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Dec 8 10:53:26 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2020 10:53:26 -0600 Subject: Gateway Electronics (was Al Lasher's electronics closing.) In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> On 12/07/2020 09:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > As much fun as the Silicon Valley surplus outlets were, I don't think > any could hold a candle to the old post WWII surplus outlets. I think > John Meshna was the last of those. > > My favorite was "surplus row" on S. Michigan Ave. in Chicago. I know > that New York had a similar electronics slum... > There was also Fair Radio Sales, and Radar Research. Also, C&H in Pasadena. HGR in Cleveland is supposed to be quite fantastic, but mostly industrial and CNC machinery. I went to the Canal street surplus shops in NYC when I was a little kid, so late 1950's early 1960's. A total blast! Want a complete IBM 650 computer? They had it! Jon From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Dec 8 17:23:21 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 18:23:21 -0500 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <54f60468-f76d-9910-7e6a-3dbb3bc72df4@alembic.crystel.com> Good news: I'm going to get a reader on loan so I should be able to image these things. I'll put them up on my web server here, if anyone would like to take a look at them let me know. On a positive note it looks like the Perq T2 units used either the ST506 or ST412 drives, so those *might* have Perq data as I don't think Bob ever had a Pro/350. Then again could be rainbows, is there a PERQ emulator out on the web or does anyone know what a Perq disk would look like? C On 12/6/2020 9:24 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > As the excavation of Bob's junkpile continues I have finally hit the MFM > layer. Specifically about 10 5.25 hard disks that look to be old style > MFM drives. > > Vertex V150 > Miniscribe 6085 (could be 3b1) > ST 4038M Seagate Franklin telecom AT-40 > Miniscribe 3650 HH (40mb maybe for a 3b2) > Seagate ST4096 > Priam ID45-H > Rodime RO203E > RD54 > Real ST506 > Pair of ST412's. > > Anyone recognize what kinds of systems may have used these? The RD54 is > of course DEC, and I'm guessing the ST506 and 412's were from either a > Rainbow or a Professional/350. But the rest are weird. Maybe Convergent > miniframes? Probably not PC's as Bob had a lot of weird stuff. > > Thoughts? I'll see if I can get a mfm reader and suck data into files I > can post for others to read/try/giggle at. But as there isn't much > labelling I have no idea what is on them. > > Also did find Wordperfect and speller for what I think is Rainbow on > 5.25 floppies. Let me know if you need a copy, or if a copy exists in > archives (also two DEC disks for Learning the Rainbow or something like > that) > > Chris From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 17:35:07 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 15:35:07 -0800 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: <54f60468-f76d-9910-7e6a-3dbb3bc72df4@alembic.crystel.com> References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> <54f60468-f76d-9910-7e6a-3dbb3bc72df4@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 3:23 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Good news: I'm going to get a reader on loan so I should be able to > image these things. I'll put them up on my web server here, if anyone > would like to take a look at them let me know. > > On a positive note it looks like the Perq T2 units used either the ST506 > or ST412 drives, so those *might* have Perq data as I don't think Bob > ever had a Pro/350. Then again could be rainbows, is there a PERQ > emulator out on the web or does anyone know what a Perq disk would look > like? > David's MFM emulator knows how to decode PERQ hard drive images, if you use the "--analyze" option to "mfm_read" it should pick it up. I have a hacky utility that can extract files from disk images, if they're in POS format. As for emulators, yes, the one I wrote ages ago, but it doesn't emulate the T2, as much as I keep hoping to get back to it and make that happen... https://github.com/jdersch/PERQemu - Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 22:34:16 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 20:34:16 -0800 Subject: Problems with FORT and ALGOL in TSS/8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 9:38 PM Josh Dersch wrote: > On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 6:13 PM Kevin Jordan via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> Specifically, in the case of FORTRAN, the compiler exits with an error >> code >> 6204. This occurs even when trying to compile trivial "hello world" >> programs, and it appears to occur in all other TSS/8 distributions we've >> tried as well (i.e., this particular problem is not unique to the LCM+L >> distribution). We haven't found error code 6204 specifically documented in >> the TSS/8 user/admin manuals, but the manuals do document other error >> codes >> in the 62xx range. Documented error codes in the 62xx range appear to >> reflect file I/O errors, so we're wondering if perhaps one of the files >> supporting the FORTRAN compiler is corrupt in all of these distributions. >> > > The LCM+L variant is built starting from the same disk image as all the > other TSS/8 systems out there (which was originally taken from John > Wilson's TSS/8 system). I extended the filesystem to a full megaword (the > maximum supported by TSS/8) for the RK05 image. > > I suspect you may be right that FORTRAN is corrupted, I'll take a look > this weekend. I'll admit to not having played with it; though I did test > out everything else. > Finally had a chance to look at this. The 6204 error message is documented in the EDUSYSTEM 50 guide here: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp8/tss8/DEC-08-E50UA-A-D_UG_Aug75.pdf See page 6-49: "6204 Error in reading the compiler, FDCOMP. Must be stored under account 2." And yes, the library account (2) is missing FDCOMP.SAV, and I know of no existing copy of this code anywhere, unfortunately. Perhaps it will turn up somewhere someday, on a DECtape gathering dust on someone's shelf. I really do wish more TSS/8 stuff was out there, but I suppose we should be thankful that any of it survived. - Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 12:48:13 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 10:48:13 -0800 Subject: Fire-Sale PDP-11 update (and request for parts) In-Reply-To: <4C8110DA-9C26-48EC-89D4-B3AC7A599769@fritzm.org> References: <4C8110DA-9C26-48EC-89D4-B3AC7A599769@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 3:11 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Dec 4, 2020, at 10:41 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I realize this is unlikely, but I was curious if anyone has 1) any > > parts of the 11/45 power wiring harness... I can build my own wiring > harness, but if I can save > > myself the trouble, that'd be nice. > > Yeah, I had build my own for my /45 restoration. It wasn't all that bad. > Throw down for a nice ratcheting single-gesture crimp tool for the job and > you'll be glad that you did :-) > > I found wirebarn.com had a nice selection of wire available in > less-than-full-spool lengths, and most of the original colors. I may have > had to fill in a few things from other suppliers (I found it helpful to > stick to the original color coding.) > Thanks, that'll be handy. > > Another tip is that the wire list you see in most of the /45 drawing sets > is actually for the power harness, and not the backplane. The wire lengths > in that list were useful; I cut to those lengths, then started on the > regulator side of the harness, installed in the machine, and bundled and > trimmed to length as I worked my way down the backplane. In the end I had > a reasonably neat fit and very little wasted wire. > Also very good to know, thanks! > > I had the extra wrinkle of having the earlier (serial # <2000) power > distribution system in my /45 (IIRC the wire list was from the newer > system, but it wasn't too hard to adapt it.) > > Do you have the springy steel strip that supports the harness between the > moving and stationary parts of the cabinet? That may require some fab or > improvisation if not. I had one left over from an 11/40 that I was able to > make work well enough with my older style cabinet. > I do, it's a bit rusty. What remains of the wiring harness is no longer attached to it, as the plastic ties holding it in place burned away (along with the rubber sheathing and the most of insulation on the wires themselves.) - Josh > > cheers, > --FritzM. > > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Dec 9 19:28:44 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 17:28:44 -0800 Subject: Gateway Electronics Sale this Saturday from 9am to 4pm In-Reply-To: <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> At the original store. from Doug on Facebook Because you asked so nicely, we're having another $15 fill a tray day this Saturday 9-4. at their location in Chesterfield ?mall? in Chesterfield (west of St. Louis), Missouri. Lower level on Sears end of ?mall?. Thanks Jim On 12/8/2020 8:53 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 12/07/2020 09:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Jon > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Dec 10 10:10:50 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 10:10:50 -0600 Subject: Gateway Electronics Sale this Saturday from 9am to 4pm In-Reply-To: <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5FD2488A.9010505@pico-systems.com> On 12/09/2020 07:28 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > At the original store. > Thanks! I'll try to get out there with my friend Walter, the guy with the flight simulator. If not to buy anything, maybe just to shmooze with the people I've known for so long. Jon From athornton at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 16:50:47 2020 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 15:50:47 -0700 Subject: e: Gateway Electronics Sale this Saturday from 9am to 4pm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If anyone goes to the Gateway sale, please, please tell Doug that Adam Thornton is doing fine in Tucson but misses him and the store greatly. Thanks, Adam From shumaker at att.net Thu Dec 10 20:19:11 2020 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 18:19:11 -0800 Subject: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay) In-Reply-To: <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Of interest to the early apple fans on here: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/93832586_apple-1-computer-with-original-box-signed-by-steve Steve From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Dec 10 21:30:29 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 19:30:29 -0800 Subject: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay) In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <001601d6cf6d$fa0b2e70$ee218b50$@net> > Of interest to the early apple fans on here: > > https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/93832586_apple-1-computer-with- > original-box-signed-by-steve I wanted to see the box and accessories.... But alas no picture of the goods. -Ali From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 21:31:36 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 21:31:36 -0600 Subject: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay) In-Reply-To: <001601d6cf6d$fa0b2e70$ee218b50$@net> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> <001601d6cf6d$fa0b2e70$ee218b50$@net> Message-ID: this is up on RR auction https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=6001 On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 9:30 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > Of interest to the early apple fans on here: > > > > https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/93832586_apple-1-computer-with- > > original-box-signed-by-steve > > I wanted to see the box and accessories.... But alas no picture of the > goods. > > -Ali > > From w2hx at w2hx.com Fri Dec 11 10:14:25 2020 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 16:14:25 +0000 Subject: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay) In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> <001601d6cf6d$fa0b2e70$ee218b50$@net> Message-ID: <1bba04cca5c44f9ea560628a1b3a2d4e@EXBE014SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> What am I missing? The picture shown on RR auctions shows the board with no chips? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2020 10:32 PM To: Ali ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay) this is up on RR auction https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=6001 On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 9:30 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > Of interest to the early apple fans on here: > > > > https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/93832586_apple-1-computer-with- > > original-box-signed-by-steve > > I wanted to see the box and accessories.... But alas no picture of the > goods. > > -Ali > > From ethan at 757.org Fri Dec 11 10:34:40 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:34:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay) In-Reply-To: <1bba04cca5c44f9ea560628a1b3a2d4e@EXBE014SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> <001601d6cf6d$fa0b2e70$ee218b50$@net> <1bba04cca5c44f9ea560628a1b3a2d4e@EXBE014SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: > What am I missing? The picture shown on RR auctions shows the board with no chips? Search for Apple in the search box at the top. There are some Woz Schematics for the Apple II, the Apple 1 and a bunch of other stuff. Looks like some of it might be Woz's stuff but hard to tell. Apple 1 was at $102K this morning. -- Ethan From gavin at learn.bio Fri Dec 11 11:17:58 2020 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:17:58 -0600 Subject: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay) In-Reply-To: <1bba04cca5c44f9ea560628a1b3a2d4e@EXBE014SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> <001601d6cf6d$fa0b2e70$ee218b50$@net> <1bba04cca5c44f9ea560628a1b3a2d4e@EXBE014SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: The last two photos if you scroll down show the board populated in presumably its current condition. But it's an interesting question of why there are all these bare board photos. I suspect "qualified bidders" will want to carefully peruse the report of the restoration that is apparently available to them. And since when are buyer's premiums 25%? Yeesh! But then if you need to ask the price... On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 10:24 AM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > What am I missing? The picture shown on RR auctions shows the board with no chips? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2020 10:32 PM > To: Ali ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay) > > this is up on RR auction > https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=6001 > > On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 9:30 PM Ali via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Of interest to the early apple fans on here: > > > > > > https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/93832586_apple-1-computer-with- > > > original-box-signed-by-steve > > > > I wanted to see the box and accessories.... But alas no picture of the > > goods. > > > > -Ali > > > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Dec 11 15:50:38 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:50:38 -0800 Subject: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay) In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> <001601d6cf6d$fa0b2e70$ee218b50$@net> <1bba04cca5c44f9ea560628a1b3a2d4e@EXBE014SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: <1ce82151-0e15-0370-2fd3-bc72b1278834@jwsss.com> On 12/11/2020 9:17 AM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > The last two photos if you scroll down show the board populated in > presumably its current condition. > > But it's an interesting question of why there are all these bare board > photos. I suspect "qualified bidders" will want to carefully peruse > the report of the restoration that is apparently available to them. > > And since when are buyer's premiums 25%? Yeesh! But then if you need > to ask the price... > > On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 10:24 AM W2HX via cctalk wrote: >> What am I missing? The picture shown on RR auctions shows the board with no chips? >> >> this is up on RR auction >> https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=6001 >>>> Of interest to the early apple fans on here: >>>> >>>> https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/93832586_apple-1-computer-with- >>>> original-box-signed-by-steve >>> I wanted to see the box and accessories.... But alas no picture of the >>> goods. >>> >>> -Ali >>> >>> I hope they know there was a nearly 100% identical clone board made up.? I have one in the pile somewhere.? If you were good at it, you might be able to take off the etch marker which shows it's not the real thing. There's one also that is a functional equivalent as well. The "restoration" hopefully is 100% on the ICs as a $400k price needs the original IC set not work if that was the case.? At least I'd think having the original parts is more useful to the buyer. You can or get an emulator for the Apple 1, which is cute, but isn't that great a machine, and not disturb an original artifact. It does also state that the parts are all have remarkably clear markings.? I'd not take that as a great thing unless there was some explanation. thanks Jim From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 16:07:18 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:07:18 -0800 Subject: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay) In-Reply-To: <1bba04cca5c44f9ea560628a1b3a2d4e@EXBE014SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> <001601d6cf6d$fa0b2e70$ee218b50$@net> <1bba04cca5c44f9ea560628a1b3a2d4e@EXBE014SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 8:23 AM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > What am I missing? The picture shown on RR auctions shows the board with no chips? Watch the (unlisted) video linked to the auction listing from Corey Cohen. From what I have seen in the past he is pretty much the expert on Apple 1 restoration and authentication. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDTchQuP_Ec In any case, it doesn't really matter too much what any of us here think. Anyone that was seriously going to put up the money for this would know how to go about authenticating this item. From jim.manley at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 20:56:55 2020 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 19:56:55 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay) In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> <001601d6cf6d$fa0b2e70$ee218b50$@net> <1bba04cca5c44f9ea560628a1b3a2d4e@EXBE014SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 3:07 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > Anyone that was seriously going to put up the money for this would know > how to go about authenticating this item. It's been estimated by experts that a third to half of the "original artwork", previously valued at a total in the tens of billions in museums and collectors' places, are counterfeits. There have been a number of well-researched news stories, including a full segment on "60 Minutes" a couple of decades ago, where a counterfeiter was interviewed and showed how he executed his craft. One counterfeiter was so good that he sold paintings for tens of millions of dollars that were never even painted by the purported original artist, but were hinted at or described by art historians, based on rumors going back into the mists of time. Caveat emptor ... On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 3:07 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 8:23 AM W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > > > > What am I missing? The picture shown on RR auctions shows the board with > no chips? > > Watch the (unlisted) video linked to the auction listing from Corey > Cohen. From what I have seen in the past he is pretty much the expert > on Apple 1 restoration and authentication. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDTchQuP_Ec > > In any case, it doesn't really matter too much what any of us here > think. Anyone that was seriously going to put up the money for this > would know how to go about authenticating this item. > From robert.stek at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 20:58:20 2020 From: robert.stek at gmail.com (Robert Stek) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 21:58:20 -0500 Subject: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay) Message-ID: I really don't need another one. Bob Saver of lost Sols From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Dec 11 21:11:16 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 19:11:16 -0800 Subject: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay) In-Reply-To: References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> <001601d6cf6d$fa0b2e70$ee218b50$@net> <1bba04cca5c44f9ea560628a1b3a2d4e@EXBE014SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: <4c6adb66-7cf6-fe1f-5e17-adfc75f68f2f@snowmoose.com> Watch the Orson Welles film "F is for Fake" ... On 12/11/20 6:56 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 3:07 PM Glen Slick via cctalk > wrote: > >> Anyone that was seriously going to put up the money for this would know >> how to go about authenticating this item. > > > It's been estimated by experts that a third to half of the "original > artwork", previously valued at a total in the tens of billions in museums > and collectors' places, are counterfeits. There have been a number of > well-researched news stories, including a full segment on "60 Minutes" a > couple of decades ago, where a counterfeiter was interviewed and showed how > he executed his craft. One counterfeiter was so good that he sold > paintings for tens of millions of dollars that were never even painted by > the purported original artist, but were hinted at or described by art > historians, based on rumors going back into the mists of time. > > Caveat emptor .. > > > On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 3:07 PM Glen Slick via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 8:23 AM W2HX via cctalk >> wrote: >>> >>> What am I missing? The picture shown on RR auctions shows the board with >> no chips? >> >> Watch the (unlisted) video linked to the auction listing from Corey >> Cohen. From what I have seen in the past he is pretty much the expert >> on Apple 1 restoration and authentication. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDTchQuP_Ec >> >> In any case, it doesn't really matter too much what any of us here >> think. Anyone that was seriously going to put up the money for this >> would know how to go about authenticating this item. >> From ethan at 757.org Fri Dec 11 23:57:51 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 00:57:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay) In-Reply-To: <1ce82151-0e15-0370-2fd3-bc72b1278834@jwsss.com> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> <001601d6cf6d$fa0b2e70$ee218b50$@net> <1bba04cca5c44f9ea560628a1b3a2d4e@EXBE014SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <1ce82151-0e15-0370-2fd3-bc72b1278834@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > The "restoration" hopefully is 100% on the ICs as a $400k price needs the > original IC set not work if that was the case.? At least I'd think having the > original parts is more useful to the buyer. You can or get an emulator for > the Apple 1, which is cute, but isn't that great a machine, and not disturb > an original artifact. Forget the Apple 1 on that auction site... those Apple colored "sunglasses" that Woz had made are pretty funky. Some other Apple things on there as well. - Ethan From deramp5113 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 11 20:47:00 2020 From: deramp5113 at yahoo.com (Mike Douglas) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:47:00 -0600 Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 References: Message-ID: I assume you saw the RAM 17 on eBay right now? Mike From ethan at 757.org Sat Dec 12 10:00:17 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 11:00:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yup! Sigh. - Ethan > I assume you saw the RAM 17 on eBay right now? > > Mike > -- : Ethan O'Toole From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Dec 12 10:08:51 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 11:08:51 -0500 Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d5529f3-33a3-ff53-f9d6-922b3ce59aee@alembic.crystel.com> Wow, that could upgrade so many deserving TRS80 Model 100's.... (always liked the basic simplicity of SRAM boards) On 12/12/2020 11:00 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > Yup! > > Sigh. > > ? - Ethan > >> I assume you saw the RAM 17 on eBay right now? >> >> Mike >> > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Dec 12 10:10:20 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 11:10:20 -0500 Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: <7d5529f3-33a3-ff53-f9d6-922b3ce59aee@alembic.crystel.com> References: <7d5529f3-33a3-ff53-f9d6-922b3ce59aee@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <7b1cdb61-0953-8fbe-4607-370838bcdc94@alembic.crystel.com> Oh wait, wrong chip. My bad. On 12/12/2020 11:08 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Wow, that could upgrade so many deserving TRS80 Model 100's.... > > (always liked the basic simplicity of SRAM boards) > > On 12/12/2020 11:00 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >> Yup! >> >> Sigh. >> >> ?? - Ethan >> >>> I assume you saw the RAM 17 on eBay right now? >>> >>> Mike >>> >> >> -- >> : Ethan O'Toole >> >> From ethan at 757.org Sat Dec 12 13:51:13 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 14:51:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: <7b1cdb61-0953-8fbe-4607-370838bcdc94@alembic.crystel.com> References: <7d5529f3-33a3-ff53-f9d6-922b3ce59aee@alembic.crystel.com> <7b1cdb61-0953-8fbe-4607-370838bcdc94@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: > Oh wait, wrong chip. My bad. I think my Model 100 is 24K of storage.... is there something I'm missing? I did re-cap it. Everyone that has one should do this -- they leak. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Dec 12 16:48:19 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 17:48:19 -0500 Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: References: <7d5529f3-33a3-ff53-f9d6-922b3ce59aee@alembic.crystel.com> <7b1cdb61-0953-8fbe-4607-370838bcdc94@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <5be19c05-be02-fcbb-5405-b2a975295c2c@alembic.crystel.com> The original Model 100 had 8k of memory on one 8k*8 chip. You could add 3 more chips and get up to 32k for the cost of the chips IIRC. I thought these were those chips. C On 12/12/2020 2:51 PM, Ethan O'Toole wrote: >> Oh wait, wrong chip. My bad. > > I think my Model 100 is 24K of storage.... is there something I'm missing? > > I did re-cap it. Everyone that has one should do this -- they leak. > > ??????????? - Ethan > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Dec 12 16:56:40 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 17:56:40 -0500 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. Message-ID: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> This was a long day. Went over to the house and started working on getting the Perqs out of the basement. I've been moving smaller stuff to make room and it was time. First up was a Perq1 chassis that just had the big disk drive in it, side and rear panels. I figured it was lightest and after taking off the sides and top was able to lift it and carry it up steps. Still heavy and bulky, but it made room and a path to get to the second one. The second one was a mess but a lot heavier: It still had the card cage in it and I was not going to be able to lift. So I figured out how to take the sides, top, front, back, and bottom (pounds are made of ounces) and then spottted the screws that hold the card cage and power supply in the box. Bless the people at perq, those two screws out and you can lift the cage out the side of the box. The card cage without cards (took them out to lighten) was heavy but I got it up the steps. Then with a herculean amount of effort I managed to carry the rest of the box up, followed by the sides, top, front, back, and bottom plates. There are still two more Perqs down there. They have heavier front plates (I was able to take them off) with real shielding. They were different designs, so they were not Perq1s and they are not the same as each other. Question: Are there any pictures of other types of Perqs? Unfortunately they are still buried under old Sun gear and a Vaxserver of some sort. So I'll have to think about those, but they will need to come apart as well. Question: Do the card cages and stuff come off the later Perqs as well? Also got two different types of keyboards that say Perq, and a monitor that looks like a big fat white Vetrex and says Three Rivers. Question: What does a Perq mouse look like? At least this stuff will not be junked. I'll take pictures and such tomorrow and throw a tarp over everything tonight because I'm too tired to get it out of the truck. I swore off high-mass hobbies for a reason.... From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 17:29:30 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 15:29:30 -0800 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> References: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 2:56 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > This was a long day. Went over to the house and started working on > getting the Perqs out of the basement. I've been moving smaller stuff to > make room and it was time. > > First up was a Perq1 chassis that just had the big disk drive in it, > side and rear panels. I figured it was lightest and after taking off the > sides and top was able to lift it and carry it up steps. Still heavy and > bulky, but it made room and a path to get to the second one. > > The second one was a mess but a lot heavier: It still had the card cage > in it and I was not going to be able to lift. So I figured out how to > take the sides, top, front, back, and bottom (pounds are made of ounces) > and then spottted the screws that hold the card cage and power supply in > the box. Bless the people at perq, those two screws out and you can lift > the cage out the side of the box. > > The card cage without cards (took them out to lighten) was heavy but I > got it up the steps. Then with a herculean amount of effort I managed to > carry the rest of the box up, followed by the sides, top, front, back, > and bottom plates. > > There are still two more Perqs down there. They have heavier front > plates (I was able to take them off) with real shielding. They were > different designs, so they were not Perq1s and they are not the same as > each other. > > Question: Are there any pictures of other types of Perqs? > DigiBarn has a few pictures of a PERQ 1 and a T2: http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/perqt2/index.html There's the rarer PERQ 2, which I have a picture of here: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMo9970DK9zAIhDnnUjg > > Unfortunately they are still buried under old Sun gear and a Vaxserver > of some sort. So I'll have to think about those, but they will need to > come apart as well. > > Question: Do the card cages and stuff come off the later Perqs as well? > Not as easily. They can all be disassembled to a point but it's not nearly as simple as the PERQ 1/1A. If you pull the side, front, and rear panels off (be careful there -- the drives are mounted to the rear, and there are cables to deal with), and pull the boards, it should be significantly lighter. > > Also got two different types of keyboards that say Perq, and a monitor > that looks like a big fat white Vetrex and says Three Rivers. > Sounds like the newer-style portrait monitor for the PERQ 2 to me. > > Question: What does a Perq mouse look like? > It varies. See the Digibarn T2 pictures for one example; the Summagraphics Bit Pad One was another common option -- big white tablet about 15" square with a 4-button wired puck. GPIB interface. There was also the Kriz tablet which was smaller and had three buttons. > > At least this stuff will not be junked. I'll take pictures and such > tomorrow and throw a tarp over everything tonight because I'm too tired > to get it out of the truck. > Looking forward to pictures! - Josh > I swore off high-mass hobbies for a reason.... > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 18:11:54 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 19:11:54 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 RAM (was Re: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17) In-Reply-To: <7d5529f3-33a3-ff53-f9d6-922b3ce59aee@alembic.crystel.com> References: <7d5529f3-33a3-ff53-f9d6-922b3ce59aee@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 11:08 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Wow, that could upgrade so many deserving TRS80 Model 100's.... > > (always liked the basic simplicity of SRAM boards) (I saw the correction that followed) What SRAM was used in Model 100 upgrades? 6264? 62256? Or just plain old 6116? -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 18:13:00 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 19:13:00 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 caps (was Re: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17) In-Reply-To: References: <7d5529f3-33a3-ff53-f9d6-922b3ce59aee@alembic.crystel.com> <7b1cdb61-0953-8fbe-4607-370838bcdc94@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 2:51 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > I did re-cap it. Everyone that has one should do this -- they leak. I should pull mine out and do this. I know exactly where it is but I haven't powered it on for years. I think I have the floppy drive too, in the same box. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 18:14:35 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 19:14:35 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 RAM (was Re: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17) In-Reply-To: <5be19c05-be02-fcbb-5405-b2a975295c2c@alembic.crystel.com> References: <7d5529f3-33a3-ff53-f9d6-922b3ce59aee@alembic.crystel.com> <7b1cdb61-0953-8fbe-4607-370838bcdc94@alembic.crystel.com> <5be19c05-be02-fcbb-5405-b2a975295c2c@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 5:48 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > The original Model 100 had 8k of memory on one 8k*8 chip. You could add > 3 more chips and get up to 32k for the cost of the chips IIRC. I thought > these were those chips. So there are spaces for 3 more 6264 chips then? Those look abundant around $2 each. -ethan From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat Dec 12 18:22:41 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 00:22:41 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 caps (was Re: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17) In-Reply-To: References: <7d5529f3-33a3-ff53-f9d6-922b3ce59aee@alembic.crystel.com> <7b1cdb61-0953-8fbe-4607-370838bcdc94@alembic.crystel.com> , Message-ID: All caps? I have several of these that probably need it then. http://www.classiccmp.org/cini Long Island S100 User?s Group Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ethan Dicks via cctalk Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2020 7:13:00 PM To: Ethan O'Toole ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 caps (was Re: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17) On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 2:51 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > I did re-cap it. Everyone that has one should do this -- they leak. I should pull mine out and do this. I know exactly where it is but I haven't powered it on for years. I think I have the floppy drive too, in the same box. -ethan From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 12 18:59:53 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 18:59:53 -0600 Subject: e: Gateway Electronics Sale this Saturday from 9am to 4pm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5FD56789.2060407@pico-systems.com> On 12/10/2020 04:50 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > If anyone goes to the Gateway sale, please, please tell Doug that Adam > Thornton is doing fine in Tucson but misses him and the store greatly. > > I delivered your message to Doug. I filled up a little bin with crimp ring lugs and connectors and such, mostly for old times sake. It is really the passing of an age! As far as I know, nobody is going to be doing what they did in the St. Louis area. Jon From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Dec 12 20:31:51 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 21:31:51 -0500 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: References: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: > DigiBarn has a few pictures of a PERQ 1 and a T2: > > http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/perqt2/index.html Yep, the 1 is out, and one of the other two is a T2 like the picture. > There's the rarer PERQ 2, which I have a picture of here: Hm. The other one does not look like that, it is similar in shape to the T2 but it's a different shape and says ICL on the front. I grabbed both of the front panels because they were accessible, will post pics in a bit. > If you pull the side, front, and rear panels off (be careful there -- > the drives are mounted to the rear, and there are cables to deal with), > and pull the boards, it should be significantly lighter. Ok. Next time I go over I'll see if I can at least uncover one. Maybe I can stack the Sun gear where the Perq1 was. > Sounds like the newer-style portrait monitor for the PERQ 2 to me. Yeah, it reminded me of that 66 line terminal people had in the early 80's. It was up and down, not side to side, were the other monitors landscape only? And a big DB style plug to go into the computer. > It varies.? See the Digibarn T2 pictures for one example; the > Summagraphics Bit Pad One was another common option -- big white tablet > about 15" square with a 4-button wired puck.? GPIB interface.? There was > also the Kriz tablet which was smaller and had three buttons. Ok, there are a lot of junk sun keyboards and mice in there and it's a mess with all the general crud. What does the plug going to the Perq look like? Are they optical or mechanical? > Looking forward to pictures! I'll post some in a bit. Not very good ones, but best we can do. Chris From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 20:51:03 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 18:51:03 -0800 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: References: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 6:31 PM Chris Zach wrote: > > DigiBarn has a few pictures of a PERQ 1 and a T2: > > > > http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/perqt2/index.html > > Yep, the 1 is out, and one of the other two is a T2 like the picture. > > > There's the rarer PERQ 2, which I have a picture of here: > > Hm. The other one does not look like that, it is similar in shape to the > T2 but it's a different shape and says ICL on the front. I grabbed both > of the front panels because they were accessible, will post pics in a bit. > Something like this, then? http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/17020/ICL-PERQ-2-T1-Workstation/ A bit more uncommon over here, I think... > > If you pull the side, front, and rear panels off (be careful there -- > > the drives are mounted to the rear, and there are cables to deal with), > > and pull the boards, it should be significantly lighter. > > Ok. Next time I go over I'll see if I can at least uncover one. Maybe I > can stack the Sun gear where the Perq1 was. > > > Sounds like the newer-style portrait monitor for the PERQ 2 to me. > > Yeah, it reminded me of that 66 line terminal people had in the early > 80's. It was up and down, not side to side, were the other monitors > landscape only? > The PERQ 1 was originally portrait, there were landscape options later on, which became more prevalent with the T1 and T2 models. > > And a big DB style plug to go into the computer. > > > It varies. See the Digibarn T2 pictures for one example; the > > Summagraphics Bit Pad One was another common option -- big white tablet > > about 15" square with a 4-button wired puck. GPIB interface. There was > > also the Kriz tablet which was smaller and had three buttons. > > Ok, there are a lot of junk sun keyboards and mice in there and it's a > mess with all the general crud. What does the plug going to the Perq > look like? Are they optical or mechanical? > Neither. Electromagnetic :). The Bit Pad One has a GPIB cable (which on the T2 and maybe the T1 is a DB15), the Kriz tablet used a DB15 (IIRC). > > > > Looking forward to pictures! > > I'll post some in a bit. Not very good ones, but best we can do. > Cool! - Josh > Chris > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Dec 12 21:00:43 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 22:00:43 -0500 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: References: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/17020/ICL-PERQ-2-T1-Workstation/ > > A bit more uncommon over here, I think... More like this: Here is a shot of the two of them from the front. https://www.crystel.com/bob/perq3/DSC_0121.JPG I'm going to have to get that GSC thing out as well if I am going to reach these. Other pictures here. https://www.crystel.com/bob/perq3 From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 00:14:01 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 06:14:01 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 RAM (was Re: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17) In-Reply-To: References: <7d5529f3-33a3-ff53-f9d6-922b3ce59aee@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 12:12 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 11:08 AM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: > > Wow, that could upgrade so many deserving TRS80 Model 100's.... > > > > (always liked the basic simplicity of SRAM boards) > > (I saw the correction that followed) > > What SRAM was used in Model 100 upgrades? 6264? 62256? Or just > plain old 6116? The original Model 100 took special RAM modules. Each was a ceramic substrate with 4 6116 RAM chips (surface mount) soldered on. All address decoding was on the M100 main PCB, the modules had 4 chip select lines, one for each RAM. These modules are 0.7" wide, so even if you cut traces and modify the address decoder to use 8K RAMs of the 6264 type, you have to bend pins and socket strips to get them to go in. The Model 102, I think, used 6264s -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 00:25:48 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 06:25:48 +0000 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: References: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 11:30 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > Question: Do the card cages and stuff come off the later Perqs as well? > > > > Not as easily. They can all be disassembled to a point but it's not nearly > as simple as the PERQ 1/1A. > > If you pull the side, front, and rear panels off (be careful there -- the > drives are mounted to the rear, and there are cables to deal with), and > pull the boards, it should be significantly lighter. After removing the above, you can remove the floppy drive (the normal 3 cable to an 8" drive and I think 3 screws) and the power supply (under the floppy drive, there are 3 output cables with in-line plugs and sockets, an IEC type main input on the back of the PSU chassis, and 2 screws at the front). The fan tray can come out too, but it's not worth doing. The empty chassis (no drives, boards, or PSU) is just about liftable. > > Question: What does a Perq mouse look like? > > > > It varies. See the Digibarn T2 pictures for one example; the Summagraphics > Bit Pad One was another common option -- big white tablet about 15" square > with a 4-button wired puck. GPIB interface. There was also the Kriz > tablet which was smaller and had three buttons. The original mouse for the PERQ 1 (covered in the schematics book) is very rare and I don't think Bob had one. Most PERQ 1s and 1As used the Sumagraphics bit bad one, as you say with a GPIB interface. The PERQ 2 mouse is a smaller tablet with a normal mouse-shaped thing (3 buttons) wired to it. There are 2 versions, for portrait and landscape machines. The cable ends in a DIN plug that goes into a socket on the monitor. The PERQ 2 keyboard is connected in the same way. A PERQ 1 keyboard has a DA15 plug on the end that goes into the back of the processor box. A PERQ 1 monitor has IIRC a DC37 plug carrying power, sync and video A PERQ 2 montor has a DA15 cable for syncs and keyboard/mouse signals. A BNC cable for video. Portrait monitors have a power cable from the back of the processor box too. Landscape monitors have an IEC mains input connector, sometimes there's a cable to the power output socket on the PERQ, this operates a relay in the monitor to power the monitor up when you turn the system on. Others just have a power switch on the monitor. -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 01:09:44 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 23:09:44 -0800 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: References: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 8:56 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/17020/ICL-PERQ-2-T1-Workstation/ > > > > A bit more uncommon over here, I think... > > More like this: Here is a shot of the two of them from the front. > > https://www.crystel.com/bob/perq3/DSC_0121.JPG > > I'm going to have to get that GSC thing out as well if I am going to > reach these. > > Other pictures here. > > https://www.crystel.com/bob/perq3 Looks like an HP-1000 E-Series 2109 or 2113 sitting on top of the Perq box. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 05:29:05 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 11:29:05 -0000 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> References: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <017f01d6d143$2a740970$7f5c1c50$@gmail.com> There might be info here http://sw.ccs.bcs.org/iclarch/ You don't have mini DAO?? https://www.computerconservationsociety.org/wg-mildap.htm Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chris Zach via > cctalk > Sent: 12 December 2020 22:57 > To: CCTalk mailing list > Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. > > This was a long day. Went over to the house and started working on getting > the Perqs out of the basement. I've been moving smaller stuff to make room > and it was time. > > First up was a Perq1 chassis that just had the big disk drive in it, side and rear > panels. I figured it was lightest and after taking off the sides and top was able > to lift it and carry it up steps. Still heavy and bulky, but it made room and a > path to get to the second one. > > The second one was a mess but a lot heavier: It still had the card cage in it > and I was not going to be able to lift. So I figured out how to take the sides, > top, front, back, and bottom (pounds are made of ounces) and then spottted > the screws that hold the card cage and power supply in the box. Bless the > people at perq, those two screws out and you can lift the cage out the side of > the box. > > The card cage without cards (took them out to lighten) was heavy but I got it > up the steps. Then with a herculean amount of effort I managed to carry the > rest of the box up, followed by the sides, top, front, back, and bottom plates. > > There are still two more Perqs down there. They have heavier front plates (I > was able to take them off) with real shielding. They were different designs, > so they were not Perq1s and they are not the same as each other. > > Question: Are there any pictures of other types of Perqs? > > Unfortunately they are still buried under old Sun gear and a Vaxserver of > some sort. So I'll have to think about those, but they will need to come apart > as well. > > Question: Do the card cages and stuff come off the later Perqs as well? > > Also got two different types of keyboards that say Perq, and a monitor that > looks like a big fat white Vetrex and says Three Rivers. > > Question: What does a Perq mouse look like? > > At least this stuff will not be junked. I'll take pictures and such tomorrow and > throw a tarp over everything tonight because I'm too tired to get it out of the > truck. > > I swore off high-mass hobbies for a reason.... From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Dec 13 11:58:45 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 12:58:45 -0500 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: References: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: > Looks like an HP-1000 E-Series 2109 or 2113 sitting on top of the Perq box. Yes. I don't know much about the HP series computers. So I should take it up the steps (is it heavy?), and is it historical like the Perqs? C From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Dec 13 12:05:16 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 13:05:16 -0500 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: References: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: > After removing the above, you can remove the floppy drive (the normal > 3 cable to an 8" drive and I think 3 screws) and the power supply > (under the floppy drive, there are 3 output cables with in-line plugs > and sockets, an IEC type main input on the back of the PSU chassis, > and 2 screws at the front). The fan tray can come out too, but it's > not worth doing. The empty chassis (no drives, boards, or PSU) is > just about liftable. Thanks, that helps. Even though these things used switching power supplies (the chassis on the 1 there has a big message saying "warning switching supply, high voltages inside) they are still a pretty heavy component. I'll focus on getting the stuff off the top and getting the side bits in the next trip over. Also will be bringing some garbage bags to fill with the junk and wreckage that's down there as well, I should try to be a good person and clean out some of the techno-muck. > The original mouse for the PERQ 1 (covered in the schematics book) is > very rare and I don't think Bob had one. Most PERQ 1s and 1As used the > Sumagraphics bit bad one, as you say with a GPIB interface. Ok, I think I saw a mouse or two like that, will pick them up next time. > A PERQ 1 keyboard has a DA15 plug on the end that goes into the back > of the processor box. Yep, photos coming in a bit. > A PERQ 1 monitor has IIRC a DC37 plug carrying power, sync and video Yep, photos coming in a bit. > A PERQ 2 montor has a DA15 cable for syncs and keyboard/mouse signals. > A BNC cable for video. Portrait monitors have a power cable from the > back of the processor box too. Landscape monitors have an IEC mains > input connector, sometimes there's a cable to the power output socket > on the PERQ, this operates a relay in the monitor to power the monitor > up when you turn the system on. Others just have a power switch on the > monitor. Ok. There are TV sets and other stuff in the piles, now that I know what I am looking for I'll see what's there. The key item is priority: I'm trying to remove the data first (hard drives, floppies, documentation, and those huge box of Perq tapes), then the historical/unique stuff, then stuff that is more commodity-historical, then the sun rocks if it's worth it. So any opinions from the list based on the pictures of "That is really important and should be in a museum CZ" will get the priority and the limited bandwidth of getting up the steps. :-) Thanks! CZ From lproven at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 15:45:33 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 22:45:33 +0100 Subject: Perkins-Elmer 3600 and PETOS Message-ID: Does anyone know anything much about this early desktop computer and its OS? Example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Perkin-Elmer-3600-PETOS-Like-Microsoft-BASIC-Computer-6800-CPU-Works-/303540134722 Although it predated the PC, MS supplied the BASIC and apparently the CLI resembles early DOS. I ask because there is someone in the Free Pascal Compiler fora looking for help getting data off one -- they're still using it for data monitoring! https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,52458.0.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Dec 13 16:28:59 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 17:28:59 -0500 Subject: Ok, Perqs are stowed away Message-ID: 1 Perq 1, one chassis without motherboards of another Perq1, sides, lids, 1.5 sets of ends, pair of Perq2 endpanels, two keyboards (1 and 2 style) and a portrait monitor. Pictures of all the stuff at https://www.crystel.com/bob/perq4 Not many pictures of this stuff from all angles, so feel free to copy and put on real sites. Anyone need more of these Sun3/4 VME boards? Need to make more space. CZ From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 17:00:26 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 17:00:26 -0600 Subject: Ok, Perqs are stowed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: good job On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 4:29 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > 1 Perq 1, one chassis without motherboards of another Perq1, sides, > lids, 1.5 sets of ends, pair of Perq2 endpanels, two keyboards (1 and 2 > style) and a portrait monitor. > > Pictures of all the stuff at https://www.crystel.com/bob/perq4 > > Not many pictures of this stuff from all angles, so feel free to copy > and put on real sites. > > Anyone need more of these Sun3/4 VME boards? Need to make more space. > > CZ > From sieler at allegro.com Sun Dec 13 20:37:11 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 18:37:11 -0800 Subject: when was memory "above" the terminal screen invented? Message-ID: Hi, First, apologies if I asked this years ago (I've searched my archives, no hits :) When was the concept of memory "above" the screen invented for terminals? I.e., previously displayed data that had scrolled up and off the screen ... but could be retrieved (usually by scrolling down). (Sometimes called "scrollback", or "offscreen memory".) (BTW, I'm talking about terminal-local memory, not a scrollback implemented by the computer to which the terminal is connected.) The HP 2640A, 1974, had (IIRC) several pages of memory available ... the user could scroll backwards and see what had been on the screen before it scrolled off (as long as it hadn't been lost by having too much subsequent output). I suspect the DEV VT100, 1978, had it, but I can't find definitive proof online (sure, I can find VT102 emulators that have scrollback, but reading an old VT102 manual doesn't make it clear that it has it.) thanks, Stan From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Dec 13 20:48:54 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 21:48:54 -0500 Subject: when was memory "above" the terminal screen invented? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ebf832-ebe7-de1a-cb42-a2cbe0fd5a2f@ieee.org> I'm pretty sure the DEC VT100 didn't have it.? It was very memory -limited - the standard was 80x 24 and if you wanted 132 x 24 you had to buy the advanced video option. There was a demo program that made it look like it recovered data that had been scrolled off the top of the screen, but I think it was just re-sent form the computer. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2020-12-13 9:37 p.m., Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > First, apologies if I asked this years ago (I've searched my archives, no > hits :) > > When was the concept of memory "above" the screen invented for terminals? > > I.e., previously displayed data that had scrolled up and off the screen ... > but could be retrieved (usually by scrolling down). > > (Sometimes called "scrollback", or "offscreen memory".) > > (BTW, I'm talking about terminal-local memory, not a scrollback implemented > by the computer to which the terminal is connected.) > > The HP 2640A, 1974, had (IIRC) several pages of memory available ... the > user could scroll > backwards and see what had been on the screen before it scrolled off (as > long > as it hadn't been lost by having too much subsequent output). > > I suspect the DEV VT100, 1978, had it, but I can't find definitive proof > online (sure, I can find VT102 emulators that have scrollback, but reading > an old VT102 manual doesn't make it clear that it has it.) > > thanks, > > Stan From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 21:15:26 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 22:15:26 -0500 Subject: when was memory "above" the terminal screen invented? In-Reply-To: <51ebf832-ebe7-de1a-cb42-a2cbe0fd5a2f@ieee.org> References: <51ebf832-ebe7-de1a-cb42-a2cbe0fd5a2f@ieee.org> Message-ID: DIDN't the datapoint 3300 have that? On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 9:49 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm pretty sure the DEC VT100 didn't have it. It was very memory > -limited - the standard was 80x 24 and if you wanted 132 x 24 you had to > buy the advanced video option. > > There was a demo program that made it look like it recovered data that > had been scrolled off the top of the screen, but I think it was just > re-sent form the computer. > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 2020-12-13 9:37 p.m., Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > > > First, apologies if I asked this years ago (I've searched my archives, no > > hits :) > > > > When was the concept of memory "above" the screen invented for terminals? > > > > I.e., previously displayed data that had scrolled up and off the screen > ... > > but could be retrieved (usually by scrolling down). > > > > (Sometimes called "scrollback", or "offscreen memory".) > > > > (BTW, I'm talking about terminal-local memory, not a scrollback > implemented > > by the computer to which the terminal is connected.) > > > > The HP 2640A, 1974, had (IIRC) several pages of memory available ... the > > user could scroll > > backwards and see what had been on the screen before it scrolled off (as > > long > > as it hadn't been lost by having too much subsequent output). > > > > I suspect the DEV VT100, 1978, had it, but I can't find definitive proof > > online (sure, I can find VT102 emulators that have scrollback, but > reading > > an old VT102 manual doesn't make it clear that it has it.) > > > > thanks, > > > > Stan > From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Dec 13 21:34:34 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 20:34:34 -0700 Subject: when was memory "above" the terminal screen invented? In-Reply-To: <51ebf832-ebe7-de1a-cb42-a2cbe0fd5a2f@ieee.org> References: <51ebf832-ebe7-de1a-cb42-a2cbe0fd5a2f@ieee.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 7:49 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm pretty sure the DEC VT100 didn't have it. It was very memory > -limited - the standard was 80x 24 and if you wanted 132 x 24 you had to > buy the advanced video option. > I'm sure it did not have scroll back. I used a lot of these terminals back in the day. Warner There was a demo program that made it look like it recovered data that > had been scrolled off the top of the screen, but I think it was just > re-sent form the computer. > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 2020-12-13 9:37 p.m., Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > > > First, apologies if I asked this years ago (I've searched my archives, no > > hits :) > > > > When was the concept of memory "above" the screen invented for terminals? > > > > I.e., previously displayed data that had scrolled up and off the screen > ... > > but could be retrieved (usually by scrolling down). > > > > (Sometimes called "scrollback", or "offscreen memory".) > > > > (BTW, I'm talking about terminal-local memory, not a scrollback > implemented > > by the computer to which the terminal is connected.) > > > > The HP 2640A, 1974, had (IIRC) several pages of memory available ... the > > user could scroll > > backwards and see what had been on the screen before it scrolled off (as > > long > > as it hadn't been lost by having too much subsequent output). > > > > I suspect the DEV VT100, 1978, had it, but I can't find definitive proof > > online (sure, I can find VT102 emulators that have scrollback, but > reading > > an old VT102 manual doesn't make it clear that it has it.) > > > > thanks, > > > > Stan > From rickb at bensene.com Sun Dec 13 22:04:03 2020 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 20:04:03 -0800 Subject: Ok, Perqs are stowed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D44A6@mail.bensene.com> On the Classic Computer Mailing list, you wrote: > Anyone need more of these Sun3/4 VME boards? Need to make more space. Hi, Chris, I didn't see the boards...which photo(s) are they in? I have a Sun 4 server system, and there are some boards I've been looking for. If I could see what you've got, I could determine if you've got any of the ones I'm seeking. I looked through the pix, but didn't see any photos of anything but the Perq stuff, which is way cool...congrats on having some cool machines. Thanks, -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormsueum.com From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Dec 14 00:10:44 2020 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 22:10:44 -0800 Subject: when was memory "above" the terminal screen invented? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93EAD7F2-F5C8-48D3-9AE7-174FF42037AD@reanimators.org> On Dec 13, 2020, at 18:37, Stan Sieler wrote: > > Hi, > > First, apologies if I asked this years ago (I've searched my archives, no > hits :) > > When was the concept of memory "above" the screen invented for terminals? > > I.e., previously displayed data that had scrolled up and off the screen ... > but could be retrieved (usually by scrolling down). Printing terminals. Just pull the printed paper up from where it has fallen behind your Teletype or DECwriter or Silent 700 or Terminet. > (Sometimes called "scrollback", or "offscreen memory".) > > (BTW, I'm talking about terminal-local memory, not a scrollback implemented > by the computer to which the terminal is connected.) > > The HP 2640A, 1974, had (IIRC) several pages of memory available ... the > user could scroll > backwards and see what had been on the screen before it scrolled off (as > long > as it hadn't been lost by having too much subsequent output). That was, kind of sort of, the on-screen effect, but it could vary. Between 1977 and 1981 I used 2640B terminals which had been purchased without many options. They didn?t have lower case characters (these were displayed as upper case characters, and sometimes hilarity ensued), and they had about 1KB of display memory. Now you may be thinking that 24 rows of 80 characters is more like 1920 characters which would require a little more than 1KB of display memory, and you would be correct. The tricky bit about the 264X display controller is that it is reading display memory as a linked list of fixed-size short chunks (under 20 bytes) and the last one has an end-of-line indicator in it (it is an ASCII terminal and byte values 0x80-0xff are interpreted as display controls). So a short line of text doesn?t take up as much display memory. Which means you can have more of them in display memory. So your 2640B with 1KB display memory has scrollback if most lines that you have in memory are short, but can only fill its screen halfway if all lines are long. > I suspect the DEV VT100, 1978, had it, but I can't find definitive proof > online (sure, I can find VT102 emulators that have scrollback, but reading > an old VT102 manual doesn't make it clear that it has it.) I think the VT100 did not. I?m not sure it matters. The 2640A would predate the VT100. I wonder if the termcap da and/or db flags would turn up some older terminals with the same feature. (These indicate display above and display below.) -Frank McConnell From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 14 01:09:34 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 23:09:34 -0800 Subject: when was memory "above" the terminal screen invented? In-Reply-To: <93EAD7F2-F5C8-48D3-9AE7-174FF42037AD@reanimators.org> References: <93EAD7F2-F5C8-48D3-9AE7-174FF42037AD@reanimators.org> Message-ID: IIRC, there were block-mode terminals with several pages of memory. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 14 02:34:42 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 00:34:42 -0800 Subject: when was memory "above" the terminal screen invented? In-Reply-To: References: <93EAD7F2-F5C8-48D3-9AE7-174FF42037AD@reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 12/13/20 11:09 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > IIRC, there were block-mode terminals with several pages of memory. > > --Chuck > Come to think of it, Don Lancaster's TVTypewriter had 2 pages of memory. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 14 03:26:27 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 02:26:27 -0700 Subject: tty and video displays Message-ID: Often for data input one could use over strike characters for input. Not EQ might be = BS | Did any video display terminals repeat the same effect? Ben. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Dec 14 04:22:38 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 02:22:38 -0800 Subject: when was memory "above" the terminal screen invented? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-Dec-13, at 6:37 PM, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > ... > When was the concept of memory "above" the screen invented for terminals? > > I.e., previously displayed data that had scrolled up and off the screen ... > but could be retrieved (usually by scrolling down). > > (Sometimes called "scrollback", or "offscreen memory".) > > (BTW, I'm talking about terminal-local memory, not a scrollback implemented > by the computer to which the terminal is connected.) > > The HP 2640A, 1974, had (IIRC) several pages of memory available ... the > user could scroll > backwards and see what had been on the screen before it scrolled off (as > long > as it hadn't been lost by having too much subsequent output). > > I suspect the DEV VT100, 1978, had it, but I can't find definitive proof > online (sure, I can find VT102 emulators that have scrollback, but reading > an old VT102 manual doesn't make it clear that it has it.) If it fits your definitions, you might look into the Teletype Model 40 if more info to that below can be found. On pdf.pg.60 of this article: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapro/alphanumeric_terminals/Datapro_C25-010_197904.pdf the Model 40 is shown with "Paging: Opt. 2/3 pages" and "First production delivery: 10/73" From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Dec 14 04:41:03 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 02:41:03 -0800 Subject: tty and video displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57102D9D-9F28-4E3D-9A5D-37DCFBBBEC48@shaw.ca> On 2020-Dec-14, at 1:26 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Often for data input one could use over strike characters for input. Not EQ might be = BS | Did any video display terminals > repeat the same effect? Yes. Coincidentally I've just been refurbishing one - a Teleray 3931. It's an ASCII/APL terminal, overstriking was included for the APL mode. http://madrona.ca/e/teleray3931/index.html Note the screenshots in APL mode. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Dec 14 04:50:42 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 02:50:42 -0800 Subject: when was memory "above" the terminal screen invented? In-Reply-To: <93EAD7F2-F5C8-48D3-9AE7-174FF42037AD@reanimators.org> References: <93EAD7F2-F5C8-48D3-9AE7-174FF42037AD@reanimators.org> Message-ID: <9559d800-f292-48d0-70a7-64ade95c4e1f@jwsss.com> On 12/13/2020 10:10 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: > On Dec 13, 2020, at 18:37, Stan Sieler wrote: >> Hi, >> >> First, apologies if I asked this years ago (I've searched my archives, no >> hits :) >> >> When was the concept of memory "above" the screen invented for terminals? >> >> I.e., previously displayed data that had scrolled up and off the screen ... >> but could be retrieved (usually by scrolling down). > Printing terminals. Just pull the printed paper up from where it has fallen > behind your Teletype or DECwriter or Silent 700 or Terminet. I know you're trying to be cute because I believe the "page" wasn't paper the OP was referring to. However the Microdata Scribe, which was done by an engineer who later worked on a dot matrix printer for Data Products and manufactured in Irvine had reverse paper motion. You could align the paper, set the page size which would logically fix the printer, and then control the motion over the page as needed. It could print anywhere on the 14" platten w/o extra motion, so it was able to quickly move around the page doing either graphic printing, line printing which emulated a plotter, or print characters as needed. Not related to scroll back or paper motion it had a really powerful font support mechanism.? All of this was done when memory became cheap and reliable enough that you could have more than just display memory and a smidge of ram for a display processor in the terminal. I didn't see the functions of the Scribe duplicated in any other printer in the price or performance class. The other thing that is nice about the printer is that it used the same OEM head that the TI 8xx series printers did, so you could buy them very economically in the day, the ribbons were the same and cheap.? Today they still are among the most common NOS around for such parts. I bought the optional keyboard, so I had a KSR printing terminal and could scroll back with the printer.? It was essentially equivalent to the DEC LA printers, but the scroll back could be done from the keyboard. thanks Jim >> (Sometimes called "scrollback", or "offscreen memory".) >> >> (BTW, I'm talking about terminal-local memory, not a scrollback implemented >> by the computer to which the terminal is connected.) >> >> The HP 2640A, 1974, had (IIRC) several pages of memory available ... the >> user could scroll >> backwards and see what had been on the screen before it scrolled off (as >> long >> as it hadn't been lost by having too much subsequent output). > That was, kind of sort of, the on-screen effect, but it could vary. > > Between 1977 and 1981 I used 2640B terminals which had been purchased > without many options. They didn?t have lower case characters (these > were displayed as upper case characters, and sometimes hilarity ensued), > and they had about 1KB of display memory. > > Now you may be thinking that 24 rows of 80 characters is more like 1920 > characters which would require a little more than 1KB of display memory, > and you would be correct. > > The tricky bit about the 264X display controller is that it is reading > display memory as a linked list of fixed-size short chunks (under 20 > bytes) and the last one has an end-of-line indicator in it (it is an > ASCII terminal and byte values 0x80-0xff are interpreted as display > controls). So a short line of text doesn?t take up as much display > memory. Which means you can have more of them in display memory. > > So your 2640B with 1KB display memory has scrollback if most lines that > you have in memory are short, but can only fill its screen halfway if > all lines are long. > >> I suspect the DEV VT100, 1978, had it, but I can't find definitive proof >> online (sure, I can find VT102 emulators that have scrollback, but reading >> an old VT102 manual doesn't make it clear that it has it.) > I think the VT100 did not. I?m not sure it matters. The 2640A would > predate the VT100. > > I wonder if the termcap da and/or db flags would turn up some older > terminals with the same feature. (These indicate display above and > display below.) > > -Frank McConnell > > From martin at shackspace.de Mon Dec 14 04:55:06 2020 From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 11:55:06 +0100 Subject: Help needed identifying old MFM drives from the excavation In-Reply-To: References: <2ebddd91-5901-ce1a-ec23-001f1341a217@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <20201214105505.GA23276@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Fred Cisin via cctalk: (...) > The Seagates were commodity drives, used in almost everything. > Number is approximately the unformatted capacity. > ST506 was 5MB formatted (305 Cyl x 2 heads) ; The ST-506 had 2 platters, 4 heads. Mechanically the ST-506 and the ST-412 are mostly the same. The track-to-track-distance and the position of the inner and outer track differ. > ST412 added buffered seek, was 10MB formatted (306 cyl x 4 heads). Yes, but there are later versions auf the ST-506 with microcontroller on it. Don't know if they already allowed buffered seek, but I think so. --map -- Martin Peters martin at shackspace.de From djg at pdp8online.com Mon Dec 14 06:36:27 2020 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 07:36:27 -0500 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20201214123627.GA2606144@hugin3> On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 10:00:43PM -0500, Chris Zach wrote: > > I'm going to have to get that GSC thing out as well if I am going to reach > these. > Looks like a rebadged HP 1000 series machine. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Dec 14 06:55:14 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 07:55:14 -0500 Subject: tty and video displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/14/20 4:26 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Often for data input one could use over strike characters for input. Not > EQ might be = BS | Did any video display terminals > repeat the same effect? > Ben. > > APL Terminals where many of the characters are overstrike. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 14 08:25:18 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 09:25:18 -0500 Subject: when was memory "above" the terminal screen invented? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <163B4C5B-4767-446F-B013-E782B8E9AF3F@comcast.net> > On Dec 13, 2020, at 9:37 PM, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > First, apologies if I asked this years ago (I've searched my archives, no > hits :) > > When was the concept of memory "above" the screen invented for terminals? > > I.e., previously displayed data that had scrolled up and off the screen ... > but could be retrieved (usually by scrolling down). > > (Sometimes called "scrollback", or "offscreen memory".) > > (BTW, I'm talking about terminal-local memory, not a scrollback implemented > by the computer to which the terminal is connected.) > > The HP 2640A, 1974, had (IIRC) several pages of memory available ... the > user could scroll > backwards and see what had been on the screen before it scrolled off (as > long > as it hadn't been lost by having too much subsequent output). > > I suspect the DEV VT100, 1978, had it, but I can't find definitive proof > online (sure, I can find VT102 emulators that have scrollback, but reading > an old VT102 manual doesn't make it clear that it has it.) Definitely not any of the DEC plain terminals. However, the VT71/t (a.k.a., VT72), an LSI-11 based smart terminal that did local editing of a whole file, had a lot of memory only a small part of which was displayed. And before that was the VT20, a very similar device controlled by an 11/05 (one for two "heads"). The VT71 dates to around 1977. Depending on how loose your definition of off-screen memory is, the console display of the CDC 6000 mainframes (from around 1965) might qualify. paul From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Dec 14 08:26:53 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 09:26:53 -0500 Subject: tty and video displays In-Reply-To: <57102D9D-9F28-4E3D-9A5D-37DCFBBBEC48@shaw.ca> References: <57102D9D-9F28-4E3D-9A5D-37DCFBBBEC48@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <5f4db98d-164b-2ae2-7ad8-ef60df8c7847@e-bbes.com> On 2020-12-14 05:41, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-Dec-14, at 1:26 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> Often for data input one could use over strike characters for input. Not EQ might be = BS | Did any video display terminals >> repeat the same effect? > > Yes. Coincidentally I've just been refurbishing one - a Teleray 3931. > It's an ASCII/APL terminal, overstriking was included for the APL mode. > > http://madrona.ca/e/teleray3931/index.html > > Note the screenshots in APL mode. Is it really an overstrike? They look simply like different characters. At least, I didn't (probably missed it) how they can be generated out of the available ones... From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 14 08:28:48 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 09:28:48 -0500 Subject: tty and video displays In-Reply-To: <5f4db98d-164b-2ae2-7ad8-ef60df8c7847@e-bbes.com> References: <57102D9D-9F28-4E3D-9A5D-37DCFBBBEC48@shaw.ca> <5f4db98d-164b-2ae2-7ad8-ef60df8c7847@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 14, 2020, at 9:26 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > > On 2020-12-14 05:41, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> On 2020-Dec-14, at 1:26 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> Often for data input one could use over strike characters for input. Not EQ might be = BS | Did any video display terminals >>> repeat the same effect? >> >> Yes. Coincidentally I've just been refurbishing one - a Teleray 3931. >> It's an ASCII/APL terminal, overstriking was included for the APL mode. >> >> http://madrona.ca/e/teleray3931/index.html >> >> Note the screenshots in APL mode. > > Is it really an overstrike? They look simply like different characters. > At least, I didn't (probably missed it) how they can be generated out of > the available ones... I wondered too. General overstrike requires a bitmap display, or some sort of persistent display. Paper is an example; a Tek 4010 would also handle overstrike since it uses a storage tube. And PLATO terminals did overstrike just fine since they are bitmap displays with per-pixel memory. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Dec 14 09:36:10 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 09:36:10 -0600 Subject: Gateway Electronics Sale this Saturday from 9am to 4pm In-Reply-To: <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5FD7866A.2040703@pico-systems.com> On 12/09/2020 07:28 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > At the original store. > > from Doug on Facebook > Because you asked so nicely, we're having another $15 fill > a tray day this Saturday 9-4. > > at their location in Chesterfield ?mall? in Chesterfield > (west of St. Louis), Missouri. > Lower level on Sears end of ?mall?. > > Thanks > Jim > Jim, or others, Do you have an email for Doug or Lisa? I went to the Saturday tray sale and bought some stuff, but they were a bit busy and I didn't have a chance to say "goodbye". Thanks, Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Dec 14 09:52:38 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 09:52:38 -0600 Subject: when was memory "above" the terminal screen invented? In-Reply-To: <9559d800-f292-48d0-70a7-64ade95c4e1f@jwsss.com> References: <93EAD7F2-F5C8-48D3-9AE7-174FF42037AD@reanimators.org> <9559d800-f292-48d0-70a7-64ade95c4e1f@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5FD78A46.5040004@pico-systems.com> On 12/14/2020 04:50 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > > However the Microdata Scribe, which was done by an > engineer who later worked on a dot matrix printer for Data > Products and manufactured in Irvine had reverse paper motion. > > You could align the paper, set the page size which would > logically fix the printer, and then control the motion > over the page as needed. > > It could print anywhere on the 14" platten w/o extra > motion, so it was able to quickly move around the page > doing either graphic printing, line printing which > emulated a plotter, or print characters as needed. > I had a 1970's Honeywell drum printer that was part of a key to tape / tape to print system. I think the printer was actually a mainframe product that was adapted to this purpose. It had a core memory that held several hundred characters. The paper feed motor was run from an analog servo amp, and could be commanded to index forwards and backwards. In hardware (no CPU) it had a rudimentary "text editor" so you could place text from the core buffer anywhere on the page. Since it had a pretty limited character set on the drum, I came up with a bunch of overstrike combinations to approximate the full ASCII special characters. So, for instance, < overstruck with ( was the { character. Pascal listings looked pretty odd, but I could read them. Jon From dstalk at execulink.com Mon Dec 14 09:54:00 2020 From: dstalk at execulink.com (Don Stalkowski) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 10:54:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Macro-10 humour Message-ID: <20201214155401.1388EBEEC8F@cel2.x> I came across this among some junk I had. Don .TY NEMON.DOC LEVEL 5 MACRO-10 MNEMONICS ============================= COINCIDENT WITH THE RELEASE OF THE LEVEL 5 MONITOR SERIES, THE MNEMONICS FOR THE HARDWARE INSTRUCTIONS USED IN THE MACRO-10 ASSEMBLER HAVE BEEN UPDATED TO REFLECT CHANGES TO THE MONITOR, AND NEW OPERATING PROCEDURES. ALTHOUGH THEY HAVE NOT ALL BEEN IMPLEMENTED AS YET, A PARTIAL LISTING FOLLOWS: TRCE TRANSLATE REDUNDANT CODE TO ETHIOPIAN ROTC REQUEST OPERATOR TAKE OFF CLOTHES TDCE TRY TO DUMP CORE EVERYWHERE HRR HASH RELOCATION REGISTERS XCT EXTEND CYCLE TIME ANDCMB ALLOW NO DIRECT CURRENT IN MEMORY BANKS AOSE ALERT ONE SYSTEMS ENGINEER SETNM START EJECTING TRANSISTORS AT NEAREST MACHINE SETCM STOP EVERYTHING TO CRASH MONITOR SETAM START EATING TAPE ON ALTERNATE MONDAYS TLCN THROW LIFEPRESERVER INTO CHANNEL FOR NON-SWIMMER MULM MONITOR UPDATE FROM LUNAR MODULE MOVMS MAINTAIN ONLY VARIABLE MAGTAPE SPEED FSBRI FIVE SONIC BOOMS OVER REMOTE INTERFACE HRRES HIJACK REMOTE READER TO ENGINEERING SCIENCE HRREM HALT AND REVERSE ROTATION ON EVERY MAGTAPE JUMPE JUMBLE USERS' MEMORY ON PARITY ERROR IDPB IMMEDIATELY DROP PARITY BIT SETCAI SUDDENLY ELECTRIFY TERMINAL ON CRUDELY ARTICULATED INPUT JFFO JAIL AND FINGERPRINT FLIPPANT OPERATOR ORCMB OPERATOR REQUEST TO CHANGE MAIN BATTERIES SKIP SEARCH FOR KNOT IN INPUT STRING SKIPL SKIP ON KNOT IN POWER LINE ORCBI ORDER REDUNDANT CHANNELS TO THE BACK OF THE I/O BUS SUBI START UNLOADING BAGGAGE FROM THE I/O BUS PUSH PUNCH USING SEMI-CIRCULAR HOLES JUMPL JUMP AND UNRAVEL MAIN POWER LINE SOSL SMEAR OUTPUT ON SLOW LINE PRINTERS TRON TRY TO REWIND OPERATORS' NECKTIE SOSN SEND OUTPUT TO SUPERVISORS' NECKTIE AOBJN ADD ONE BIT TO JOB NUMBER IMULM INSIST THAT MALICIOUS USERS BE LOCKED IN MEMORY FMPR FORGET MEMORY PROTECTION AND RELOCATION FMPRB FAKE MONITOR PROBLEMS AND RESET BRIEFLY CAIE CHANGE ADDRESSING TO INEFFECTIVE FROM EFFECTIVE TRN TRANSLATE TO ROMAN NUMERALS DPB DETACH PROCESSOR BRIEFLY DIVB DECODE INTEGERS TO VERIFIED BRAILLE SETCAI SNICKER ON ERRONEOUS TYPEIN FOR CAI DIVMB DESTROY INDIVIDUAL MEMORY BANK ORCB OUTPUT A RECORD CODED IN BRAILLE TRCE TRANSFER ON ROMAN CATHOLIC ENGINEER TLNE TRANSFER ON LUTHERAN ENGINEER TROA TRANSFER ON ATHEIST SOS SERVICE ONLY STUDENTS SOJG SERVICE ONLY JEWISH GRAD STUDENTS TDC TAKE DISK TO CHIROPRACTER TSCA TURN SYSTEM CLOCK AHEAD FADRB FILTER AIR ON DETECTING ROPE BURNING FADM FILTER AIR ON DETECTING MOUNTIE PUSHJ PROCESS USER'S SHORTHAND JOB TDCA TYPE DOCUMENTATION, CENSORING ANECDOTES MOVEM MONITOR OUTPUTS A VULGAR ERROR MESSAGE ADDM ALLEVIATE DELAYS IN DECTAPE MOUNTING AOSL AWAKEN OPERATOR IF SNORING LOUDLY CAIE CENSOR ALL INPUT FROM ENGINEERING DPB DISPLAY PASSWORDS FROM BATCH FSBM FAST SPLICE OF BROKEN MAGTAPE BLT BEGIN LOSING TIME S0JG STACK OPERATOR (JUST GIRLS) TSON TIME SLICE OF ONE NANOSECOND JRST JOG 'ROUND SEVEN TRACK TAPE TSC TRANSFER SWAPPING TO CARDS From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 09:57:26 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 09:57:26 -0600 Subject: tty and video displays In-Reply-To: <57102D9D-9F28-4E3D-9A5D-37DCFBBBEC48@shaw.ca> References: <57102D9D-9F28-4E3D-9A5D-37DCFBBBEC48@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <2d4e317a-61ab-5edf-1935-b4073b943073@gmail.com> On 12/14/20 4:41 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-Dec-14, at 1:26 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> Often for data input one could use over strike characters for input. Not EQ might be = BS | Did any video display terminals >> repeat the same effect? > > Yes. Coincidentally I've just been refurbishing one - a Teleray 3931. > It's an ASCII/APL terminal, overstriking was included for the APL mode. > > http://madrona.ca/e/teleray3931/index.html Holy cow, I have that keyboard. I picked it up as surplus a few years ago from a place in Minneapolis and figured there was a very low probability of ever figuring out what machine it originally came from. I didn't know the necessary voltages for it - I mean, the grounds and +5V are obvious, but I didn't know what it needed on pin 6. Given where I got it from, there's probably a fair chance that it's faulty (and encoders generally live a hard life), but I'll have to try powering it up now. Just FYI if you're documenting things, mine has a very slightly different PCB to accommodate a pair of tantalum caps on the inputs, rather than the electrolytics on yours - caps are both rated 10uF, 35V. The encoder on mine is the same p/n but in a black plastic package rather than white ceramic (date code 7649). Sticker on the PCB underside says p/n 2129-009 and s/n 720 097. (It's definitely -12V, not -5V? I'm just thinking that the -12V noted on your schematic is quite close the the 15V rating on the cap - although that could explain why my later setup got caps rated to 35V, too) cheers! Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 14 10:51:48 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 08:51:48 -0800 Subject: tty and video displays In-Reply-To: References: <57102D9D-9F28-4E3D-9A5D-37DCFBBBEC48@shaw.ca> <5f4db98d-164b-2ae2-7ad8-ef60df8c7847@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <88613031-204b-e40c-7bad-50a0b36de2a8@sydex.com> On 12/14/20 6:28 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Is it really an overstrike? They look simply like different characters. >> At least, I didn't (probably missed it) how they can be generated out of >> the available ones... > > I wondered too. General overstrike requires a bitmap display, or some sort of persistent display. Paper is an example; a Tek 4010 would also handle overstrike since it uses a storage tube. And PLATO terminals did overstrike just fine since they are bitmap displays with per-pixel memory. Back in the day (why is everything now "back in the day"?), I wrote the firmware for a Fortune Systems text terminal. The requirement was for a certain degree of NAPLPS/Videotex compatibility. Combining certain characters was done via lookup in the character generator ROM, not by combining them as graphical characters. I suspect that this was the method used for a large number of terminals, such as the Telidon units. --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 14 11:10:47 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 11:10:47 -0600 Subject: Gateway Electronics Sale this Saturday from 9am to 4pm In-Reply-To: <5FD7866A.2040703@pico-systems.com> References: <5FCAC9EC.8050204@pico-systems.com> <004101d6cbfc$53da7070$fb8f5150$@com> <007901d6cca6$e2bb4710$a831d530$@classiccmp.org> <000701d6ccf6$887cf500$9976df00$@classiccmp.org> <000601d6ccfc$5d309c20$1791d460$@classiccmp.org> <5FCEF037.8040101@pico-systems.com> <5FCFAF86.7010902@pico-systems.com> <00f8d0ca-6cca-ba4d-d6d2-2e87fd0e0e6d@jwsss.com> <5FD7866A.2040703@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <001601d6d23c$11351310$339f3930$@classiccmp.org> Ditto. Would love an email for Doug... From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Mon Dec 14 13:39:01 2020 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 19:39:01 +0000 Subject: Macro-10 humour In-Reply-To: <20201214155401.1388EBEEC8F@cel2.x> References: <20201214155401.1388EBEEC8F@cel2.x> Message-ID: Byte magazine in the late 70?s had a list of funny mnemonics like this. My fav was SDSD - Seek Data and Scar Disk. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 14, 2020, at 07:54, Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: > > ?I came across this among some junk I had. > > Don > > .TY NEMON.DOC > > LEVEL 5 MACRO-10 MNEMONICS > ============================= > > > > COINCIDENT WITH THE RELEASE OF THE LEVEL 5 MONITOR SERIES, THE > MNEMONICS FOR THE HARDWARE INSTRUCTIONS USED IN THE MACRO-10 > ASSEMBLER HAVE BEEN UPDATED TO REFLECT CHANGES TO THE MONITOR, AND > NEW OPERATING PROCEDURES. ALTHOUGH THEY HAVE NOT ALL BEEN IMPLEMENTED > AS YET, A PARTIAL LISTING FOLLOWS: > > TRCE TRANSLATE REDUNDANT CODE TO ETHIOPIAN > ROTC REQUEST OPERATOR TAKE OFF CLOTHES > TDCE TRY TO DUMP CORE EVERYWHERE > HRR HASH RELOCATION REGISTERS > XCT EXTEND CYCLE TIME > ANDCMB ALLOW NO DIRECT CURRENT IN MEMORY BANKS > AOSE ALERT ONE SYSTEMS ENGINEER > SETNM START EJECTING TRANSISTORS AT NEAREST MACHINE > SETCM STOP EVERYTHING TO CRASH MONITOR > SETAM START EATING TAPE ON ALTERNATE MONDAYS > TLCN THROW LIFEPRESERVER INTO CHANNEL FOR NON-SWIMMER > MULM MONITOR UPDATE FROM LUNAR MODULE > MOVMS MAINTAIN ONLY VARIABLE MAGTAPE SPEED > FSBRI FIVE SONIC BOOMS OVER REMOTE INTERFACE > HRRES HIJACK REMOTE READER TO ENGINEERING SCIENCE > HRREM HALT AND REVERSE ROTATION ON EVERY MAGTAPE > JUMPE JUMBLE USERS' MEMORY ON PARITY ERROR > IDPB IMMEDIATELY DROP PARITY BIT > SETCAI SUDDENLY ELECTRIFY TERMINAL ON CRUDELY ARTICULATED INPUT > JFFO JAIL AND FINGERPRINT FLIPPANT OPERATOR > ORCMB OPERATOR REQUEST TO CHANGE MAIN BATTERIES > SKIP SEARCH FOR KNOT IN INPUT STRING > SKIPL SKIP ON KNOT IN POWER LINE > ORCBI ORDER REDUNDANT CHANNELS TO THE BACK OF THE I/O BUS > SUBI START UNLOADING BAGGAGE FROM THE I/O BUS > PUSH PUNCH USING SEMI-CIRCULAR HOLES > JUMPL JUMP AND UNRAVEL MAIN POWER LINE > SOSL SMEAR OUTPUT ON SLOW LINE PRINTERS > TRON TRY TO REWIND OPERATORS' NECKTIE > SOSN SEND OUTPUT TO SUPERVISORS' NECKTIE > AOBJN ADD ONE BIT TO JOB NUMBER > IMULM INSIST THAT MALICIOUS USERS BE LOCKED IN MEMORY > FMPR FORGET MEMORY PROTECTION AND RELOCATION > FMPRB FAKE MONITOR PROBLEMS AND RESET BRIEFLY > CAIE CHANGE ADDRESSING TO INEFFECTIVE FROM EFFECTIVE > TRN TRANSLATE TO ROMAN NUMERALS > DPB DETACH PROCESSOR BRIEFLY > DIVB DECODE INTEGERS TO VERIFIED BRAILLE > SETCAI SNICKER ON ERRONEOUS TYPEIN FOR CAI > DIVMB DESTROY INDIVIDUAL MEMORY BANK > ORCB OUTPUT A RECORD CODED IN BRAILLE > TRCE TRANSFER ON ROMAN CATHOLIC ENGINEER > TLNE TRANSFER ON LUTHERAN ENGINEER > TROA TRANSFER ON ATHEIST > SOS SERVICE ONLY STUDENTS > SOJG SERVICE ONLY JEWISH GRAD STUDENTS > TDC TAKE DISK TO CHIROPRACTER > TSCA TURN SYSTEM CLOCK AHEAD > FADRB FILTER AIR ON DETECTING ROPE BURNING > FADM FILTER AIR ON DETECTING MOUNTIE > PUSHJ PROCESS USER'S SHORTHAND JOB > TDCA TYPE DOCUMENTATION, CENSORING ANECDOTES > MOVEM MONITOR OUTPUTS A VULGAR ERROR MESSAGE > ADDM ALLEVIATE DELAYS IN DECTAPE MOUNTING > AOSL AWAKEN OPERATOR IF SNORING LOUDLY > CAIE CENSOR ALL INPUT FROM ENGINEERING > DPB DISPLAY PASSWORDS FROM BATCH > FSBM FAST SPLICE OF BROKEN MAGTAPE > BLT BEGIN LOSING TIME > S0JG STACK OPERATOR (JUST GIRLS) > TSON TIME SLICE OF ONE NANOSECOND > JRST JOG 'ROUND SEVEN TRACK TAPE > TSC TRANSFER SWAPPING TO CARDS > From nw.johnson at ieee.org Mon Dec 14 13:48:48 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 14:48:48 -0500 Subject: Macro-10 humour In-Reply-To: References: <20201214155401.1388EBEEC8F@cel2.x> Message-ID: <814664b1-1482-4f3c-2e63-075496e50bfe@ieee.org> Nothing can beat HCF! Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2020-12-14 2:39 p.m., Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Byte magazine in the late 70?s had a list of funny mnemonics like this. > > My fav was > SDSD - Seek Data and Scar Disk. > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 14, 2020, at 07:54, Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: >> >> ?I came across this among some junk I had. >> >> Don >> >> .TY NEMON.DOC >> >> LEVEL 5 MACRO-10 MNEMONICS >> ============================= >> >> >> >> COINCIDENT WITH THE RELEASE OF THE LEVEL 5 MONITOR SERIES, THE >> MNEMONICS FOR THE HARDWARE INSTRUCTIONS USED IN THE MACRO-10 >> ASSEMBLER HAVE BEEN UPDATED TO REFLECT CHANGES TO THE MONITOR, AND >> NEW OPERATING PROCEDURES. ALTHOUGH THEY HAVE NOT ALL BEEN IMPLEMENTED >> AS YET, A PARTIAL LISTING FOLLOWS: >> >> TRCE TRANSLATE REDUNDANT CODE TO ETHIOPIAN >> ROTC REQUEST OPERATOR TAKE OFF CLOTHES >> TDCE TRY TO DUMP CORE EVERYWHERE >> HRR HASH RELOCATION REGISTERS >> XCT EXTEND CYCLE TIME >> ANDCMB ALLOW NO DIRECT CURRENT IN MEMORY BANKS >> AOSE ALERT ONE SYSTEMS ENGINEER >> SETNM START EJECTING TRANSISTORS AT NEAREST MACHINE >> SETCM STOP EVERYTHING TO CRASH MONITOR >> SETAM START EATING TAPE ON ALTERNATE MONDAYS >> TLCN THROW LIFEPRESERVER INTO CHANNEL FOR NON-SWIMMER >> MULM MONITOR UPDATE FROM LUNAR MODULE >> MOVMS MAINTAIN ONLY VARIABLE MAGTAPE SPEED >> FSBRI FIVE SONIC BOOMS OVER REMOTE INTERFACE >> HRRES HIJACK REMOTE READER TO ENGINEERING SCIENCE >> HRREM HALT AND REVERSE ROTATION ON EVERY MAGTAPE >> JUMPE JUMBLE USERS' MEMORY ON PARITY ERROR >> IDPB IMMEDIATELY DROP PARITY BIT >> SETCAI SUDDENLY ELECTRIFY TERMINAL ON CRUDELY ARTICULATED INPUT >> JFFO JAIL AND FINGERPRINT FLIPPANT OPERATOR >> ORCMB OPERATOR REQUEST TO CHANGE MAIN BATTERIES >> SKIP SEARCH FOR KNOT IN INPUT STRING >> SKIPL SKIP ON KNOT IN POWER LINE >> ORCBI ORDER REDUNDANT CHANNELS TO THE BACK OF THE I/O BUS >> SUBI START UNLOADING BAGGAGE FROM THE I/O BUS >> PUSH PUNCH USING SEMI-CIRCULAR HOLES >> JUMPL JUMP AND UNRAVEL MAIN POWER LINE >> SOSL SMEAR OUTPUT ON SLOW LINE PRINTERS >> TRON TRY TO REWIND OPERATORS' NECKTIE >> SOSN SEND OUTPUT TO SUPERVISORS' NECKTIE >> AOBJN ADD ONE BIT TO JOB NUMBER >> IMULM INSIST THAT MALICIOUS USERS BE LOCKED IN MEMORY >> FMPR FORGET MEMORY PROTECTION AND RELOCATION >> FMPRB FAKE MONITOR PROBLEMS AND RESET BRIEFLY >> CAIE CHANGE ADDRESSING TO INEFFECTIVE FROM EFFECTIVE >> TRN TRANSLATE TO ROMAN NUMERALS >> DPB DETACH PROCESSOR BRIEFLY >> DIVB DECODE INTEGERS TO VERIFIED BRAILLE >> SETCAI SNICKER ON ERRONEOUS TYPEIN FOR CAI >> DIVMB DESTROY INDIVIDUAL MEMORY BANK >> ORCB OUTPUT A RECORD CODED IN BRAILLE >> TRCE TRANSFER ON ROMAN CATHOLIC ENGINEER >> TLNE TRANSFER ON LUTHERAN ENGINEER >> TROA TRANSFER ON ATHEIST >> SOS SERVICE ONLY STUDENTS >> SOJG SERVICE ONLY JEWISH GRAD STUDENTS >> TDC TAKE DISK TO CHIROPRACTER >> TSCA TURN SYSTEM CLOCK AHEAD >> FADRB FILTER AIR ON DETECTING ROPE BURNING >> FADM FILTER AIR ON DETECTING MOUNTIE >> PUSHJ PROCESS USER'S SHORTHAND JOB >> TDCA TYPE DOCUMENTATION, CENSORING ANECDOTES >> MOVEM MONITOR OUTPUTS A VULGAR ERROR MESSAGE >> ADDM ALLEVIATE DELAYS IN DECTAPE MOUNTING >> AOSL AWAKEN OPERATOR IF SNORING LOUDLY >> CAIE CENSOR ALL INPUT FROM ENGINEERING >> DPB DISPLAY PASSWORDS FROM BATCH >> FSBM FAST SPLICE OF BROKEN MAGTAPE >> BLT BEGIN LOSING TIME >> S0JG STACK OPERATOR (JUST GIRLS) >> TSON TIME SLICE OF ONE NANOSECOND >> JRST JOG 'ROUND SEVEN TRACK TAPE >> TSC TRANSFER SWAPPING TO CARDS >> From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Dec 14 15:38:03 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 13:38:03 -0800 Subject: tty and video displays In-Reply-To: References: <57102D9D-9F28-4E3D-9A5D-37DCFBBBEC48@shaw.ca> <5f4db98d-164b-2ae2-7ad8-ef60df8c7847@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 2020-Dec-14, at 6:28 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Dec 14, 2020, at 9:26 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >> On 2020-12-14 05:41, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >>> On 2020-Dec-14, at 1:26 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>>> Often for data input one could use over strike characters for input. Not EQ might be = BS | Did any video display terminals >>>> repeat the same effect? >>> >>> Yes. Coincidentally I've just been refurbishing one - a Teleray 3931. >>> It's an ASCII/APL terminal, overstriking was included for the APL mode. >>> >>> http://madrona.ca/e/teleray3931/index.html >>> >>> Note the screenshots in APL mode. >> >> Is it really an overstrike? They look simply like different characters. >> At least, I didn't (probably missed it) how they can be generated out of >> the available ones... > > I wondered too. General overstrike requires a bitmap display, or some sort of persistent display. Paper is an example; a Tek 4010 would also handle overstrike since it uses a storage tube. And PLATO terminals did overstrike just fine since they are bitmap displays with per-pixel memory. Yes, it really is overstrike. This is pretty much explained in the text. You generate overstrikes by backing up and entering a 2nd character. There are two full screen buffers, but only one page of display. There is a spring-loaded 3-position switch that allows you to temporarily 'disable' either of the buffers, so that only the characters in the other buffer are on screen while you hold the switch. There are 95 symbols in the APL set encoded in the range 0x20 to 7E, as shown on the screenshots. Now I haven't tried all 9025 possible overstrike combinations, but all sorts of non-sensical combinations produce what would be the expected result - an OR of the pixels of the contributing characters. For example, "A" can be overstruck with all the other letters of the alphabet, and all the letters of the alphabet can be overstruck with "A". It's not just the valid APL overstrike combinations. A general overstrike capability like this doesn't need a bitmap display to accomplish. I haven't RE'd the character-pixel generation section, but the ICs present and the behaviour points to it doing something along the lines of: In raster scanning, for each screen character cell: - address buffer 1, send code through character generator, store result in pixel shift register. - address buffer 2, send code through character generator, OR result into pixel shift register. - shift the shift register pixels out to CRT. - repeat for next character cell From dstalk at execulink.com Mon Dec 14 10:34:54 2020 From: dstalk at execulink.com (Don Stalkowski) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 11:34:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC stuff - free Message-ID: <20201214163454.4F001BEEC8E@cel2.x> I'm listing this stuff just in case someone is desperate for any of it. All items are as-is and free. Pickup only here in London, ON. I'm too old and too tired to run around shipping things. I'll hold on to this stuff for a couple of weeks; after that it's the recycling bin. Hardware: 12 x M594 2 x M971 M970 R002 BC08R-01 H8611 VT-52 coils (flyback, etc) VT-100 current loop interface card VAX PASCAL manuals: AA-D030A-TE VAX/VMS Primer (VMS V01) SPD 25.11.4 VAX-11 PASCAL 1.1 AA-H484A-TE VAX-11 PASCAL Language Reference Manual AA-H485A-TE VAX-11 PASCAL User's Guide AA-J181A-TE VAX-11 PASCAL Installation GUide/Release Notes AA-J180A-TE VAX-11 PASCAL Primer 3" DEC binder for the PASCAL manuals single package of prints: PC11 M7810-C-1 "11/25/74" Asynchronous Line Interface M7800-0-1 "75" DL11-0-2 Installation Procedure "4-75" LP11 Interface M7930-0-1 RK05-0-2 "72" RK11-D-1 "73" individual prints: DUV11-DA-1 Field Maintenance Print Set "12-13-76" PC11-0 engineering drawings "70" H720-E Fiche: 2 x DECUS PDP-11 Catalog 1977 DECUS PDP-11 Catalog 1978 Logic Handbook 1970 Logic Handbook 1973-74 Control handbook 1969 Manuals: VT100 User Guide EK-VT100-UG-002 VT52 DECscope Maintenance Manual EK-VT52-MM-001 (1976) RTM Register Transfer Modules (1973) Media: EC-N4783-48 ManageWORKS Workgroup Administrator & SDK March 1995 (trial software) DECdirect CD Catalog Winter 1995 ONYX Electronic Systems and Options Catalog V1.0 (floppies) Listings: MAINDEC-11-DEFPB-A-D Feb 21, 1976 PDP11-45/55/70 FP11C part 2 MAINDEC-11-DEFPA-A-D Feb 21, 1976 PDP11-45/55/70 FP11C part 1 MAINDEC-11-DCKBA to DCKBE-C-D March 21, 1975 PDP11/45-11/40 BASIC CP TESTS From dstalk at execulink.com Mon Dec 14 10:37:01 2020 From: dstalk at execulink.com (Don Stalkowski) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 11:37:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: misc stuff - free Message-ID: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> I'm listing this stuff just in case someone is desperate for any of it. All items are as-is and free. Pickup only here in London, ON. I'm too old and too tired to run around shipping things. I'll hold on to this stuff for a couple of weeks; after that it's the recycling bin. Softech microsystems UCSD p-System 8" floppy disks: CPM40D CPMDISK (BOOTER) UG84AT.C UPGRADE IV.03 Jun 16 1982 N8P4AT 8080 NATIVE CODE GENERATOR Jun 16 1982 LXP4BT UCSD Pascal Compiler Jan 1983 LXP4AT.B UCSD Pascal Compiler Jun 16 1982 UGC4AT.A UPGRADE Jun 16 1982 OII40D ADAP ORIENTER Jan 5 1983 IZP4BT.B Interpreter Jan 26 1983 CZP4BT.B CPM ADAPTABLE Jan 26 1983 SAP4BT.A SYSTEM Jan 26 1983 CPM4BD CPM READABLE Jan 26 1983 N8P4BT 8086 Native Code Genator (sic) Jan 26 1983 Hayes V-series Smartmodem 9600 (in box) XT parallel port card Apple mouse A2M4015 2 x Tandem binders 1 x GA binder General Automation GA-16/220/330 microconsole and system console reference card Raytheon PTS-100 reference card Interdata model 70 and 80 programmer's guide reference card (1971) Databooks: M6800 Microcomputer Family - a 79 page Motorola pamphlet containing specs etc. AMD Am29800 Family High Performance Bus Interface 1981 AMD MOS/LSI Data Book 1976 Synertek 1979 Data Catalog Microprocessor Data Package - International Electronics Unlimited booklet on IMP MM5750, MM5751 CPU set Data Sheets: CR-112 4K MOS RAMs from Texas Instruments - reliability report for TMS 4030, 4050, 4060 IMS2620 High Performance 16Kx4 Dynanic RAM - inmos #110 May 1983 IMS2630 High Performance 8Kx4 Dynanic RAM - inmos #111 November 1983 IMS2600 High Performance 64Kx1 Dynanic RAM - inmos #101 November 1983 GTE 8104/8114 Static RAMs 1024x8 N-MOS April 1980 Texas Instruments MOS/LSI Memory and Microprocessor Products June 1976 Books: The SNOBOL4 Programming Language - Griswold et al Manuals: Courier 270 Information Display System Operator's Manual pub # 30-0002-00-00 Jun 1975 ICC 40+ Data Display System Installation and Operation GA 16/220 prints - this is a very complete set: CUP NO. I, CPU NO. II, SYS. CNSL. INTF. W/IPL, 8K RAM, MEMORY SERVICE MODULE, TTY/with PS, RS-232/TTY, COMPACT MIB, COMPACT PS From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Dec 14 15:58:15 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 21:58:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: misc stuff - free ed sharpe says Please - -museum can use this if extermal modem Hayes V-series SmartmodeHayes V-series Smartmodem 9600m 9600 In-Reply-To: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> Message-ID: <619925815.651833.1607983095224@mail.yahoo.com> Re: misc stuff - free ed sharpe says Please - -museum can use this if external modem Hayes V-series SmartmodeHayes V-series Smartmodem 9600m ?9600? Hayes V-series Smartmodem 9600 ??In a message dated 12/14/2020 2:52:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? Hayes V-series Smartmodem 9600 From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Dec 14 15:59:49 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 21:59:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_misc_stuff_-_free__thanks...Apple_mouse_A2M40?= =?UTF-8?Q?15=C2=A0_=C2=A0Ed_sharpe=C2=A0_says=C2=A0_SM?= =?UTF-8?Q?ECC_Museum_can_use=C2=A0_this=C2=A0?= In-Reply-To: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> Message-ID: <1018664547.626442.1607983189281@mail.yahoo.com> Apple mouse A2M4015? ?Ed sharpe? says? SMECC Museum can use? this??In a message dated 12/14/2020 2:52:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? Apple mouse A2M4015? Apple mouse A2M4015?? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 14 16:00:45 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 14:00:45 -0800 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3a_misc_stuff_-_free_thanks=2e=2e=2eApple_mouse_A2M401?= =?UTF-8?B?NcKgIMKgRWQgc2hhcnBlwqAgc2F5c8KgIFNNRUNDIE11c2V1bSBjYW4gdXNlwqAg?= =?UTF-8?Q?this?= In-Reply-To: <1018664547.626442.1607983189281@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <1018664547.626442.1607983189281@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12/14/20 1:59 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Apple mouse A2M4015? ?Ed sharpe? says? SMECC Museum can use? this Figure out how to send private emails, Ed From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 16:01:11 2020 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 17:01:11 -0500 Subject: Apple Investment Message-ID: Apple went public Dec. 12, 1980 at $22.00/share over 40 years ago. Where has the time gone! A $1000 investment would be ~45 shares. Today that would be 5040 shares after 5 splits. Its price today is $121/share. That would be $609,840. Here in Canada that?s $939,153! Quite the nest egg. It has certainly paid quite handsomely to have invested in Classic Computers or in one company back then. Happy computing. Stay safe. Murray ? Virus-free. www.avg.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Dec 14 16:03:13 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 22:03:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: misc stuff - free cancel semcc hold on modem and apple mouse as we can not pick p sorry was so happy over shot the line on pickup only... thanks Ed# In-Reply-To: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> Message-ID: <773790845.676485.1607983393696@mail.yahoo.com> Re: misc stuff - free cancel semcc hold on modem and apple mouse as we can not pick p sorry was so happy over shot the line on pickup only... thanks Ed#?In a message dated 12/14/2020 2:52:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? I'm listing this stuff just in case someone is desperate forany of it.?All items are as-is and free. Pickup only here in London, ON.I'm too old and too tired to run around shipping things.?I'll hold on to this stuff for a couple of weeks; after that it'sthe recycling bin.?Softech microsystems UCSD p-System 8" floppy disks:CPM40D CPMDISK (BOOTER)UG84AT.C UPGRADE IV.03 Jun 16 1982N8P4AT 8080 NATIVE CODE GENERATOR Jun 16 1982LXP4BT UCSD Pascal Compiler Jan 1983LXP4AT.B UCSD Pascal Compiler Jun 16 1982UGC4AT.A UPGRADE Jun 16 1982OII40D ADAP ORIENTER Jan 5 1983IZP4BT.B Interpreter Jan 26 1983CZP4BT.B CPM ADAPTABLE Jan 26 1983SAP4BT.A SYSTEM Jan 26 1983CPM4BD CPM READABLE Jan 26 1983N8P4BT 8086 Native Code Genator (sic) Jan 26 1983?Hayes V-series Smartmodem 9600 (in box)XT parallel port card?Apple mouse A2M4015?2 x Tandem binders1 x GA binder?General Automation GA-16/220/330 microconsole and system console reference cardRaytheon PTS-100 reference cardInterdata model 70 and 80 programmer's guide reference card (1971)?Databooks:M6800 Microcomputer Family - a 79 page Motorola pamphlet containing specs etc.AMD Am29800 Family High Performance Bus Interface 1981AMD MOS/LSI Data Book 1976Synertek 1979 Data CatalogMicroprocessor Data Package - International Electronics Unlimited bookleton IMP MM5750, MM5751 CPU set?Data Sheets:CR-112 4K MOS RAMs from Texas Instruments - reliability report for TMS 4030, 4050, 4060IMS2620 High Performance 16Kx4 Dynanic RAM - inmos #110 May 1983IMS2630 High Performance 8Kx4 Dynanic RAM - inmos #111 November 1983IMS2600 High Performance 64Kx1 Dynanic RAM - inmos #101 November 1983GTE 8104/8114 Static RAMs 1024x8 N-MOS April 1980Texas Instruments MOS/LSI Memory and Microprocessor Products June 1976?Books:The SNOBOL4 Programming Language - Griswold et al?Manuals:Courier 270 Information Display System Operator's Manual pub # 30-0002-00-00 Jun 1975ICC 40+ Data Display System Installation and Operation?GA 16/220 prints - this is a very complete set:CUP NO. I, CPU NO. II, SYS. CNSL. INTF. W/IPL, 8K RAM, MEMORY SERVICE MODULE, TTY/with PS,RS-232/TTY, COMPACT MIB, COMPACT PS From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 14 16:03:49 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 14:03:49 -0800 Subject: misc stuff - free cancel semcc hold on modem and apple mouse as we can not pick p sorry was so happy over shot the line on pickup only... thanks Ed# In-Reply-To: <773790845.676485.1607983393696@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <773790845.676485.1607983393696@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9b52320e-fbfb-c50f-9862-f6be6399c0bd@bitsavers.org> On 12/14/20 2:03 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Re: misc stuff - free cancel semcc hold on modem and apple mouse as we can not pick p sorry was so happy over shot the line on pickup only... thanks Ed#?In a message dated 12/14/2020 2:52:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > I'm listing this stuff just in case someone is desperate forany of it.?All items are as-is and free. Pickup only here in London, ON.I'm too old and too tired to run around shipping things.?I'll hold on to this stuff for a couple of weeks; after that it'sthe recycling bin.?Softech microsystems UCSD p-System 8" floppy disks:CPM40D CPMDISK (BOOTER)UG84AT.C UPGRADE IV.03 Jun 16 1982N8P4AT 8080 NATIVE CODE GENERATOR Jun 16 1982LXP4BT UCSD Pascal Compiler Jan 1983LXP4AT.B UCSD Pascal Compiler Jun 16 1982UGC4AT.A UPGRADE Jun 16 1982OII40D ADAP ORIENTER Jan 5 1983IZP4BT.B Interpreter Jan 26 1983CZP4BT.B CPM ADAPTABLE Jan 26 1983SAP4BT.A SYSTEM Jan 26 1983CPM4BD CPM READABLE Jan 26 1983N8P4BT 8086 Native Code Genator (sic) Jan 26 1983?Hayes V-series Smartmodem 9600 (in box)XT parallel port card?Apple mouse A2M4015?2 x Tandem binders1 x GA binder?General Automation GA-16/220/330 microconsole and system console reference cardRaytheon PTS-100 reference cardInterdata model 70 and 80 programmer's guide reference card (1971)?Databooks:M6800 Microcomputer Family - a 79 page Motorola pamphlet containing specs etc.AMD Am29800 Family High Performance Bus Interface 1981AMD MOS/LSI Data Book 1976Synertek 1979 Data CatalogMicroprocessor Data Package - International Electronics Unlimited bookleton IMP MM5750, MM5751 CPU set?Data Sheets:CR-112 4K MOS RAMs from Texas Instruments - reliability report for TMS 4030, 4050, 4060IMS2620 High Performance 16Kx4 Dynanic RAM - inmos #110 May 1983IMS2630 High Performance 8Kx4 Dynanic RAM - inmos #111 November 1983IMS2600 High Performance 64Kx1 Dynanic RAM - inmos #101 November 1983GTE 8104/8114 Static RAMs 1024x8 N-MOS April 1980Texas Instruments MOS/LSI Memory and Microprocessor Products June 1976?Books:The SNOBOL4 Programming Language - Griswold et al?Manuals:Courier 270 Information Display System Operator's Manual pub # 30-0002-00-00 Jun 1975ICC 40+ Data Display System Installation and Operation?GA 16/220 prints - this is a very complete set:CUP NO. I, CPU NO. II, SYS. CNSL. INTF. W/IPL, 8K RAM, MEMORY SERVICE MODULE, TTY/with PS,RS-232/TTY, COMPACT MIB, COMPACT PS > STOP POSTING THIS S*IT TO THE LIST From lproven at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 17:38:56 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:38:56 +0100 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 at 22:52, Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: > > I'm listing this stuff just in case someone is desperate for > any of it. Would you like me to post these lists on the Facebook vintage-computer collectors' groups for you, Don? I can suitably anonymise your email, if you prefer, and broker comms for you... No charge, of course! :-D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Dec 14 19:20:04 2020 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 19:20:04 -0600 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> Message-ID: <20201215012025.9C09F4E778@mx2.ezwind.net> At 10:37 AM 12/14/2020, Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: >Softech microsystems UCSD p-System 8" floppy disks: I would've paid for shipping these, if anyone is visiting to grab anything. I'm in Wisconsin. I'd at least want to know someone imaged them. - John From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Dec 14 19:27:53 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 20:27:53 -0500 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: <20201215012025.9C09F4E778@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <20201215012025.9C09F4E778@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 12/14/20 8:20 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 10:37 AM 12/14/2020, Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: >> Softech microsystems UCSD p-System 8" floppy disks: > > I would've paid for shipping these, if anyone is visiting to > grab anything. I'm in Wisconsin. I'd at least want to know > someone imaged them. > What version of UCSD-Pascal and for what system? bill From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Dec 14 22:06:25 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 20:06:25 -0800 Subject: tty and video displays In-Reply-To: <2d4e317a-61ab-5edf-1935-b4073b943073@gmail.com> References: <57102D9D-9F28-4E3D-9A5D-37DCFBBBEC48@shaw.ca> <2d4e317a-61ab-5edf-1935-b4073b943073@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EF58614-AE38-4C11-B98C-1740D2798D9A@shaw.ca> On 2020-Dec-14, at 7:57 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 12/14/20 4:41 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> >> Yes. Coincidentally I've just been refurbishing one - a Teleray 3931. >> It's an ASCII/APL terminal, overstriking was included for the APL mode. >> http://madrona.ca/e/teleray3931/index.html > > Holy cow, I have that keyboard. ... > (It's definitely -12V, not -5V? I'm just thinking that the -12V noted on your schematic is quite close the the 15V rating on the cap - although that could explain why my later setup got caps rated to 35V, too) I don't remember whether I traced it or measured it, but I'm fairy confident, Vgg = -12 is pretty common for GI MOS ICs. I'll try to remember to double-check it when I have the unit opened again. I have some other orphan keyboard of the period, don't recall which scanner IC it uses, but it has the similar +Vcc/-Vgg requirement. I made up a little negative supply with a 7660 charge pump and tacked it onto the keyboard PCB so the keyboard now only needs +5 externally. From sieler at allegro.com Mon Dec 14 22:27:46 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 20:27:46 -0800 Subject: tty and video displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paul writes: > General overstrike requires a bitmap display, or some sort of persistent display. Although he carefully specified 'general overstrike', I'll still mention how the HP 2641A (an APL terminal) did it. When about to enter a newly received character into memory, the terminal checked if a non-blank was already in that spot ... if yes, it looked up the pair in an internal ROM table and replaced the existing character code with a new character code designed for APL\3000 (a code that, when received, would display as the appropriate overstrike). That meant that we couldn't use the terminal at Burroughs, because our APL had a few overstrikes that weren't in the table. Stan From gavin at learn.bio Mon Dec 14 23:00:07 2020 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 23:00:07 -0600 Subject: tty and video displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Now I want to know if you have a list of the Burroughs APL overstrikes, since HP included many more overstrike characters in the HP 2641A than the ones that they needed for APL\3000, including (or so I'm lead to believe) all the Burroughs extended I/O quad overstrikes, presumably to maximize the market for the terminal and/or because they thought they might implement the same functionality at some point. So it would be interesting to know what was actually missing. The overstrike character ROM for the HP 2641A includes 63 characters, but (IIRC) only something like 21 are used in APL\3000. P.S. My HP 2641A emulation will be in the next official MAME release thanks to F.Ulivi who merged it into his existing HP 2645A driver and got it submitted upstream. G. On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 10:28 PM Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > That meant that we couldn't use the terminal at Burroughs, because our APL > had a few overstrikes that weren't in the table. From julf at julf.com Tue Dec 15 03:35:04 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 10:35:04 +0100 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> Message-ID: <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> On 15-12-2020 00:38, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Would you like me to post these lists on the Facebook vintage-computer > collectors' groups for you, Don? Seems to be the usual FB problem - too many similar groups. :) Julf From lproven at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 03:40:58 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 10:40:58 +0100 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 10:35, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > > Seems to be the usual FB problem - too many similar groups. :) How do you mean? Has it already appeared in some I'm not in? It's nothing new. 15y ago or something, there were umpteen Communities on Livejournal for any conceivable subject or interest -- most created by kids without the wits to check for others' before creating their own. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From doug at doughq.com Tue Dec 15 04:54:55 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 21:54:55 +1100 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> Message-ID: That's the beauty of the Internet, infinite overlapping groups. My view is post it everywhere - I understand how to use the key :-) Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 20:41, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 10:35, Johan Helsingius via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Seems to be the usual FB problem - too many similar groups. :) > > How do you mean? Has it already appeared in some I'm not in? > > It's nothing new. 15y ago or something, there were umpteen Communities > on Livejournal for any conceivable subject or interest -- most created > by kids without the wits to check for others' before creating their > own. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 > From dstalk at execulink.com Tue Dec 15 08:10:23 2020 From: dstalk at execulink.com (Don Stalkowski) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 09:10:23 -0500 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <20201215012025.9C09F4E778@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20201215141023.GA1384@cel2> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 08:27:53PM -0500, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 12/14/20 8:20 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > At 10:37 AM 12/14/2020, Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: > > > Softech microsystems UCSD p-System 8" floppy disks: > > > > I would've paid for shipping these, if anyone is visiting to > > grab anything. I'm in Wisconsin. I'd at least want to know > > someone imaged them. > > > > What version of UCSD-Pascal and for what system? > > bill > Sorry Bill but all I know is what's written on the labels. Don From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Dec 15 09:04:38 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 10:04:38 -0500 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: <20201215141023.GA1384@cel2> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <20201215012025.9C09F4E778@mx2.ezwind.net> <20201215141023.GA1384@cel2> Message-ID: On 12/15/20 9:10 AM, Don Stalkowski wrote: > On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 08:27:53PM -0500, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/14/20 8:20 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >>> At 10:37 AM 12/14/2020, Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: >>>> Softech microsystems UCSD p-System 8" floppy disks: >>> >>> I would've paid for shipping these, if anyone is visiting to >>> grab anything. I'm in Wisconsin. I'd at least want to know >>> someone imaged them. >>> >> >> What version of UCSD-Pascal and for what system? >> >> bill >> > > Sorry Bill but all I know is what's written on the labels. > Could you possibly post (or send me) pictures of those labels? I am still hoping to find a copy of the CP/M Adaptable System. All I have at the moment is the Terak versions. bill From deramp5113 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 15 10:00:40 2020 From: deramp5113 at yahoo.com (Mike Douglas) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 10:00:40 -0600 Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 References: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> Were you the winner of the eBay auction? It went for a very reasonable price. It was very difficult for me to not bid on it - those are great boards for use with early S100 systems :) Mike From julf at julf.com Tue Dec 15 13:09:04 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 20:09:04 +0100 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> Message-ID: <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> On 15-12-2020 10:40, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > It's nothing new. 15y ago or something, there were umpteen Communities > on Livejournal for any conceivable subject or interest -- most created > by kids without the wits to check for others' before creating their > own. This is one of the reasons why I miss good old USENET - with a public list of groups, and a clear hierarchy. Julf From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 13:15:33 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 13:15:33 -0600 Subject: tty and video displays In-Reply-To: <4EF58614-AE38-4C11-B98C-1740D2798D9A@shaw.ca> References: <57102D9D-9F28-4E3D-9A5D-37DCFBBBEC48@shaw.ca> <2d4e317a-61ab-5edf-1935-b4073b943073@gmail.com> <4EF58614-AE38-4C11-B98C-1740D2798D9A@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 12/14/20 10:06 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> (It's definitely -12V, not -5V? I'm just thinking that the -12V noted >> on your schematic is quite close the the 15V rating on the cap - >> although that could explain why my later setup got caps rated to 35V, >> too) > > I don't remember whether I traced it or measured it, but I'm fairy > confident, Vgg = -12 is pretty common for GI MOS ICs. I'll try to > remember to double-check it when I have the unit opened again. Thanks! I guess I can try it first on -5V too and see if the encoder outputs do anything, and if not give -12V a go. If it works, I like the charge pump idea - I'd probably ultimately give it its own case and use it externally, so saving a wire is handy. cheers Jules From ethan at 757.org Tue Dec 15 13:27:52 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:27:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> References: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49.ref@yahoo.com> <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Were you the winner of the eBay auction? It went for a very reasonable > price. It was very difficult for me to not bid on it - those are great > boards for use with early S100 systems :) > Mike Hello! I actually did not bid on it. Someone else from the community sold me one. The irony is for the exact same price that the eBay one sold for, which was a price we agreed on before the ending of the eBay auction. In my case I have an IMSAI with a Northstar controller and a deramp SIO board, so I need the hole in RAM. I had a RAM board with the phantom signal stuff I think but it didn't seem to work. I just want to be able to run Northstar DOS and CP/M. Most likely when events start up again it will go to an event or two (Carefully) where the public can play on it. I will probably put a terminal out but keep the machine behind glass (so to speak) due to the switches being rare/expensive/fragile/whatever. I also use that board that emulates hard sectored disks and it works well. - Ethan From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Dec 15 13:28:22 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:28:22 -0500 Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> References: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49.ref@yahoo.com> <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02cf01d6d318$74135c30$5c3a1490$@verizon.net> Yes, I was going to bid that one too, until I read he needed it. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Douglas via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 11:01 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 Were you the winner of the eBay auction? It went for a very reasonable price It was very difficult for me to not bid on it - those are great boards for use with early S100 systems :) Mike -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ethan at 757.org Tue Dec 15 13:53:34 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:53:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: <02cf01d6d318$74135c30$5c3a1490$@verizon.net> References: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49.ref@yahoo.com> <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> <02cf01d6d318$74135c30$5c3a1490$@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Yes, I was going to bid that one too, until I read he needed it. There was 18 watchers when it was first posted to the list. I figured competition was going to be tough! I was really surprised there was that much of an audience for it. Maybe it's a jerk thing, but in my mind with eBay auctions usually I never bid except the last bid.... I mean you can bid first to "mark your territory" but you are really just hurting yourself to bid anytime except last. - Ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 15 14:10:01 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 12:10:01 -0800 Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: References: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49.ref@yahoo.com> <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> <02cf01d6d318$74135c30$5c3a1490$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <38756b74-58ad-edec-203a-e0613de85545@bitsavers.org> On 12/15/20 11:53 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > you can bid first to "mark > your territory" that is pointless the way things work today since you can't see who the bidder is it used to be that a seller couldn't cancel an auction if there was a bid, and that kept people from selling things out from under you but they 'fixed' that the other thing is people figuring out your high bid by running it up, then canceling their bids. at least now they've changed it so everyone can see what the last cancel price was instead of just the jerk who ran it up From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Dec 15 14:31:21 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 15:31:21 -0500 Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: <38756b74-58ad-edec-203a-e0613de85545@bitsavers.org> References: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49.ref@yahoo.com> <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> <02cf01d6d318$74135c30$5c3a1490$@verizon.net> <38756b74-58ad-edec-203a-e0613de85545@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 12/15/20 3:10 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 12/15/20 11:53 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >> you can bid first to "mark >> your territory" > > that is pointless the way things work today since you can't see who the > bidder is > > it used to be that a seller couldn't cancel an auction if there was a > bid, and that > kept people from selling things out from under you but they 'fixed' that > > the other thing is people figuring out your high bid by running it up, > then canceling > their bids. at least now they've changed it so everyone can see what the > last cancel > price was instead of just the jerk who ran it up > > Other than "Buy It Now" I have pretty much given up on ebay. Never had luck selling anything and very seldom had any luck winning a bid. Got better ways to waste my time. bill From ethan at 757.org Tue Dec 15 14:48:01 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 15:48:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: References: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49.ref@yahoo.com> <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> <02cf01d6d318$74135c30$5c3a1490$@verizon.net> <38756b74-58ad-edec-203a-e0613de85545@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Other than "Buy It Now" I have pretty much given up on > ebay. Never had luck selling anything and very seldom > had any luck winning a bid. Got better ways to waste > my time. > bill eBay/paypal take a huge cut, you do all the work hiking stuff and guessing shipping costs. But it's got a market that Craigslist / Facebook Marketplace doesn't. I think Facebook Marketplace is going to hurt eBay. Finally a competitor. - Ethan From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 14:51:48 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 15:51:48 -0500 Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: References: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49.ref@yahoo.com> <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> <02cf01d6d318$74135c30$5c3a1490$@verizon.net> <38756b74-58ad-edec-203a-e0613de85545@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 3:48 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Other than "Buy It Now" I have pretty much given up on > > ebay. Never had luck selling anything and very seldom > > had any luck winning a bid. Got better ways to waste > > my time. > > bill > > eBay/paypal take a huge cut, you do all the work hiking stuff and guessing > shipping costs. > > But it's got a market that Craigslist / Facebook Marketplace doesn't. > > I think Facebook Marketplace is going to hurt eBay. Finally a competitor. > > - Ethan > > Ebay is more for professional sellers, Facebook is at the moment for individuals, like Ebay used to be. Ebay found the old way unprofitable and favors the professional seller. That's what I have found. Bill From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 15:36:26 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 21:36:26 -0000 Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: References: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49.ref@yahoo.com> <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> <02cf01d6d318$74135c30$5c3a1490$@verizon.net> <38756b74-58ad-edec-203a-e0613de85545@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <00d301d6d32a$57aa3cf0$06feb6d0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Ethan O'Toole > via cctalk > Sent: 15 December 2020 20:48 > To: Bill Gunshannon ; General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 > > > Other than "Buy It Now" I have pretty much given up on ebay. Never > > had luck selling anything and very seldom had any luck winning a bid. > > Got better ways to waste my time. > > bill > > eBay/paypal take a huge cut, you do all the work hiking stuff and guessing > shipping costs. > > But it's got a market that Craigslist / Facebook Marketplace doesn't. > > I think Facebook Marketplace is going to hurt eBay. Finally a competitor. > > - Ethan Having just sold an old server on Facebook Market place I suppose it must work. I also bought several travel cribs (cots we call them in the UK) but all face to face. However, I know also know that there are many dodgy sellers of dodgy goods and there is no arbitration service. So as a buyer, if stuff arrives damaged its your problem So often I hear of people paying via PayPal friends and families gifting service and losing the lot. There are plenty of alternatives to Ebay. As well as craigs list in the UK we have Etsy, preloved.co.uk , shpock. Perhaps one will replace E-Bay but at the moment for many things E-Bay is my first port of call. Dave From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Dec 15 15:49:58 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 13:49:58 -0800 Subject: tty and video displays In-Reply-To: References: <57102D9D-9F28-4E3D-9A5D-37DCFBBBEC48@shaw.ca> <2d4e317a-61ab-5edf-1935-b4073b943073@gmail.com> <4EF58614-AE38-4C11-B98C-1740D2798D9A@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <923BA7EB-6B9A-474F-B94B-5DCDD099D645@shaw.ca> On 2020-Dec-15, at 11:15 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > On 12/14/20 10:06 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >>> (It's definitely -12V, not -5V? I'm just thinking that the -12V noted >>> on your schematic is quite close the the 15V rating on the cap - >>> although that could explain why my later setup got caps rated to 35V, >>> too) >> I don't remember whether I traced it or measured it, but I'm fairy >> confident, Vgg = -12 is pretty common for GI MOS ICs. I'll try to >> remember to double-check it when I have the unit opened again. > > Thanks! I guess I can try it first on -5V too and see if the encoder outputs do anything, and if not give -12V a go. If it works, I like the charge pump idea - I'd probably ultimately give it its own case and use it externally, so saving a wire is handy. Just double-checked by measurement, yes, it is -12V. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Dec 15 17:40:05 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 18:40:05 -0500 Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: References: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49.ref@yahoo.com> <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> <02cf01d6d318$74135c30$5c3a1490$@verizon.net> <38756b74-58ad-edec-203a-e0613de85545@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 12/15/20 3:48 PM, Ethan O'Toole wrote: >> Other than "Buy It Now" I have pretty much given up on >> ebay.? Never had luck selling anything and very seldom >> had any luck winning a bid.? Got better ways to waste >> my time. >> bill > > eBay/paypal take a huge cut, you do all the work hiking stuff and > guessing shipping costs. > > But it's got a market that Craigslist / Facebook Marketplace doesn't. > > I think Facebook Marketplace is going to hurt eBay. Finally a competitor. > I haven't had any better luck with them. I sold one item on Facebook Marketplace out of about a dozen things listed. I've done better just setting them in the front yard with a for sale sign on them. When I was down at Ft. Gordon for a summer we bought a brand new set of golf clubs for my wife for $400 so she could play when when came down to visit me. She used them twice. I listed them on both places as well as LetItGo. I got one offer. $10. bill From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Dec 15 18:01:59 2020 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:01:59 -0800 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 15, 2020, at 11:09 AM, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > > This is one of the reasons why I miss good old USENET - with a public list > of groups, and a clear hierarchy. USENET is still around. But much like the rest of the infinite groups, it's not where everybody is. Sigh. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X https://www.nf6x.net/ From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Dec 15 18:40:47 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:40:47 -0800 Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: References: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49.ref@yahoo.com> <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> <02cf01d6d318$74135c30$5c3a1490$@verizon.net> <38756b74-58ad-edec-203a-e0613de85545@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 12/15/2020 3:40 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > When I was down at Ft. Gordon for a summer we bought a brand > new set of golf clubs for my wife for $400 so she could play > when when came down to visit me. Seems like the golf clubs would be the hard to sell outside the pro golf channel for full price.? They usually are matched to the buyer by someone at a pro shop, and then customized.? If you didn't do that, the buyers' would think you did, and expect to have to do something. My main complaint with FB is the same as it is for all of their material.? Randomly organized, impossible to find the same thing twice, just complete hash.? Ebay at least will locate thru the entire site (for your domain) "godbout econoram" the same time, every time. Good luck with any such search, not to mention "electronics" gets me hair driers (by FB's classification) when I look at things by type. Thanks Jim From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Dec 15 19:05:43 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 20:05:43 -0500 Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: References: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49.ref@yahoo.com> <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> <02cf01d6d318$74135c30$5c3a1490$@verizon.net> <38756b74-58ad-edec-203a-e0613de85545@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 12/15/20 7:40 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/15/2020 3:40 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> When I was down at Ft. Gordon for a summer we bought a brand >> new set of golf clubs for my wife for $400 so she could play >> when when came down to visit me. > > Seems like the golf clubs would be the hard to sell outside the pro golf > channel for full price. Didn't ask full price, Asked for $150 and then lowered it to $100. 25% of the retail price. > They usually are matched to the buyer by > someone at a pro shop, and then customized.? If you didn't do that, the > buyers' would think you did, and expect to have to do something. Dick's sells these things every day. Very few recreational golfers have custom clubs. And they make up probably 98% of the golfers. That summer I played golf 6 to seven days a week. I have never had even one custom club. bill From doug at doughq.com Tue Dec 15 19:14:52 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:14:52 +1100 Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: References: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49.ref@yahoo.com> <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> <02cf01d6d318$74135c30$5c3a1490$@verizon.net> <38756b74-58ad-edec-203a-e0613de85545@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I could never get my head around Golf... except when the drinks cart came.. then it was fun. :-p On Wed, 16 Dec. 2020, 12:05 pm Bill Gunshannon via cctalk, < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/15/20 7:40 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > On 12/15/2020 3:40 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> When I was down at Ft. Gordon for a summer we bought a brand > >> new set of golf clubs for my wife for $400 so she could play > >> when when came down to visit me. > > > > Seems like the golf clubs would be the hard to sell outside the pro golf > > channel for full price. > > Didn't ask full price, Asked for $150 and then lowered it to $100. > 25% of the retail price. > > > They usually are matched to the buyer by > > someone at a pro shop, and then customized. If you didn't do that, the > > buyers' would think you did, and expect to have to do something. > > Dick's sells these things every day. Very few recreational golfers > have custom clubs. And they make up probably 98% of the golfers. > That summer I played golf 6 to seven days a week. I have never had > even one custom club. > > > bill > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 20:52:05 2020 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 18:52:05 -0800 Subject: tty and video displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1FE334DF-454D-445C-B689-D25951C364E5@gmail.com> For these interested on how it looked, I posted a picture of all the characters created by the HP 2641 APL ROM dumps here: https://www.curiousmarc.com/computing/hp-264x-terminals (somewhere down in the middle of the page). ROM dumps were from Al Kossow I believe (thanks Al). Marc > On Dec 14, 2020, at 9:00 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > > ?Now I want to know if you have a list of the Burroughs APL > overstrikes, since HP included many more overstrike characters in the > HP 2641A than the ones that they needed for APL\3000, including (or so > I'm lead to believe) all the Burroughs extended I/O quad overstrikes, > presumably to maximize the market for the terminal and/or because they > thought they might implement the same functionality at some point. So > it would be interesting to know what was actually missing. > > The overstrike character ROM for the HP 2641A includes 63 characters, > but (IIRC) only something like 21 are used in APL\3000. > > P.S. My HP 2641A emulation will be in the next official MAME release > thanks to F.Ulivi who merged it into his existing HP 2645A driver and > got it submitted upstream. > > G. > >> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 10:28 PM Stan Sieler via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> That meant that we couldn't use the terminal at Burroughs, because our APL >> had a few overstrikes that weren't in the table. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Dec 15 21:55:57 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 19:55:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: References: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49.ref@yahoo.com> <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> <02cf01d6d318$74135c30$5c3a1490$@verizon.net> <38756b74-58ad-edec-203a-e0613de85545@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Dec 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > I could never get my head around Golf... except when the drinks cart > came.. then it was fun. :-p > Golf will only become a worthwhile sport when they combine it with Skeet. Until then it's just Pasture Pool. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From sieler at allegro.com Wed Dec 16 01:42:42 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 23:42:42 -0800 Subject: found it: first speech synthesizer (at least, for S-100 systems) Message-ID: Hi, Some years back, I was asking if anyone had information about the speech synthesizer developed for the Altair 8080 by Wirt Atmar of AICS (in New Mexico). No "hits". Most places on the web claimed the Computalker was first, given the date as 1976 or 1977. (Earlier speech synthesizes existed, but they were external boxes that one interfaced to, or were standalone (often with a large/weird keyboard).) Today, I stumbled over a fairly bad OCR of Byte magazine from August, 1976 at https://archive.org/stream/byte-magazine-1976-08/1976_08_BYTE_00-12_Speech_Synthesis_djvu.txt It has two articles about speech synthesizers for S-100 bus systems. The first is by the Computalker people, who say: At the time this article goes to press, a synthesizer module incorporating several detail refinements and im- provements over the circuits of this article is being de- veloped by the author and associates. and A detailed user's guide will be supplied with the Computalker module Note the future tense! The second is by Wirt Atmar, whose product *was already shipping*. Near the end of his Byte article, Wirt lists currently available products: At the present time, two speech synthesizers are both commercially available and affordable by the hobbyist. One is the Votrax produced by: Vocal Interface Division Federal Screw Works 500 Stephenson Dr Troy Ml 48084 Price, approximately $2,000 Interfacing: Parallel or Serial (RS-232) The second is the Model 1000 manufactured by: Ai Cybernetic Systems PO Box 4691 University Park NM 88003 Price, $425 Wirt had told me (twenty years ago or so) that he thought his was the first for microcomputers (e.g., a user installed card, not an external box). Now, I'm sure ... but it was realllly close! Wirt demonstrated his product at the earlier MITS World Altair Computer Conven- tion, where it won first prize. He advertised it poorly/infrequently, since it was mostly a side business. And, that shows, since history doesn't remember it. Stan From sieler at allegro.com Wed Dec 16 02:09:48 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 00:09:48 -0800 Subject: found it: first speech synthesizer (at least, for S-100 systems) Message-ID: Hi, I'd like to apologize for referring to the OCR of the Byte article as a "fairly bad OCR". I was thinking of the garbled sections that may be the result of trying to OCR graphics. The vast majority of the text comes across clearly, and I don't want to insult whoever volunteered their time to do the OCR'ing ... I know how tedious it can be! I've been spoiled by OCR programs that produce their output as pdfs with searchable text, and should have remembered the results I get when I look at just their text! Stan From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 04:41:44 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 11:41:44 +0100 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 20:09, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > > This is one of the reasons why I miss good old USENET - with a public list > of groups, and a clear hierarchy. I was thinking exactly the same thing. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 04:43:25 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 11:43:25 +0100 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 01:02, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > > USENET is still around. But much like the rest of the infinite groups, it's not where everybody is. Sigh. True. In fact a colleague of mine at $DAYJOB is trying to resurrect the Big 8 committee and get some active management occuring again. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Dec 16 05:32:34 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:32:34 +0100 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> Message-ID: <20201216113234.GA3466@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 08:09:04PM +0100, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > On 15-12-2020 10:40, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> It's nothing new. 15y ago or something, there were umpteen Communities on >> Livejournal for any conceivable subject or interest -- most created by >> kids without the wits to check for others' before creating their own. > This is one of the reasons why I miss good old USENET - with a public list > of groups, and a clear hierarchy. You know Usenet still exists, right? September finally ended and so the volume is down, but that is no bad thing. I run a transit server for my own amusement. (It's even listed in "The Official TOP1000 Usenet Servers".) I keep toying with asking my peers to send a full feed instead of just the handful of hierarchies and groups I'm interested in. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 06:20:34 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:20:34 -0000 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> Message-ID: <023a01d6d3a5$dafa9c50$90efd4f0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Liam Proven via > cctalk > Sent: 16 December 2020 10:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: misc stuff - free > > On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 01:02, Mark J. Blair via cctalk > wrote: > > > > USENET is still around. But much like the rest of the infinite groups, it's not > where everybody is. Sigh. > > True. In fact a colleague of mine at $DAYJOB is trying to resurrect the Big 8 > committee and get some active management occuring again. Have you ever looked at USENET recently. Most groups are moribund. Other are full of irrelevant garbage. I recently considered submitting a request to close all UK groups apart from "uk.d-i-y" as that seems to contain questions and answers about everything from computer networking to open heart surgery, rendering the other useless. The UK usenet committee approved "uk.radio.amateur.moderated" so we had a spam free group, but refuse announcements so I still have to look at uk.adio.amateur to see announcements and so I also see the garbage. Newcomers don't understand that if they post in the unmoderated group , which they do because the don't want to wait for their post to be approved, that all that will happen is they will receive stupid un-moderated replies while the usual keyboard warriors hijack the thread and proceed to hurl personal abuse at each other. They decide USENET is not for them and toddle off to FACEBOOOK, and uk.radio.amateur.moderated remains pretty quiet. Even in my favourite group, "comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware" one or two threads have gone abusive. Yes its still there, and it has one or two interesting areas, but finding them can be hard work Sorry for the rant Dave G4UGM > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 06:26:42 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 13:26:42 +0100 Subject: WTB: CompuPro / Godbout RAM 17 In-Reply-To: References: <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49.ref@yahoo.com> <1E04F60F-DAC2-45C5-8220-8037F384FA49@yahoo.com> <02cf01d6d318$74135c30$5c3a1490$@verizon.net> <38756b74-58ad-edec-203a-e0613de85545@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 21:31, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Other than "Buy It Now" I have pretty much given up on > ebay. Never had luck selling anything and very seldom > had any luck winning a bid. Got better ways to waste > my time. If you _really_ want something that is _not_ BIN, the key is to use a sniping tool. I only use them very sparingly as I think it's a bit unethical, but sadly, I think a lot of people use them. I personally use a Polish one: https://snip.pl/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 09:20:53 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 10:20:53 -0500 Subject: found it: first speech synthesizer (at least, for S-100 systems) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very interesting Stan. Thank you for sharing this info Bill Degnan On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 2:43 AM Stan Sieler via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > Some years back, I was asking if anyone had information about the speech > synthesizer > developed for the Altair 8080 by Wirt Atmar of AICS (in New Mexico). > No "hits". > > Most places on the web claimed the Computalker was first, given the date as > 1976 or 1977. > > (Earlier speech synthesizes existed, but they were external boxes that one > interfaced to, > or were standalone (often with a large/weird keyboard).) > > Today, I stumbled over a fairly bad OCR of Byte magazine from August, 1976 > at > > https://archive.org/stream/byte-magazine-1976-08/1976_08_BYTE_00-12_Speech_Synthesis_djvu.txt > > It has two articles about speech synthesizers for S-100 bus systems. > > The first is by the Computalker people, who say: > > At the time this article > goes to press, a synthesizer > module incorporating several > detail refinements and im- > provements over the circuits > of this article is being de- > veloped by the author and > associates. > > and > > A detailed user's > guide will be supplied with the > Computalker module > > > Note the future tense! > > The second is by Wirt Atmar, whose product *was already shipping*. > > Near the end of his Byte article, Wirt lists currently available products: > > At the present time, two speech synthesizers > are both commercially available and affordable by > the hobbyist. > > One is the Votrax produced by: > > Vocal Interface Division > > Federal Screw Works > > 500 Stephenson Dr > > Troy Ml 48084 > > Price, approximately $2,000 > > Interfacing: Parallel or Serial (RS-232) > > > The second is the Model 1000 manufactured by: > > Ai Cybernetic Systems > > PO Box 4691 > > University Park NM 88003 > > Price, $425 > > > Wirt had told me (twenty years ago or so) that he thought his was the first > for microcomputers (e.g., a user installed card, not an external box). > Now, I'm sure ... but it was realllly close! > > Wirt demonstrated his product at the earlier MITS World Altair Computer > Conven- > tion, where it won first prize. > > He advertised it poorly/infrequently, since it was mostly a side business. > And, that shows, since history doesn't remember it. > > Stan > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Dec 16 09:48:42 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 15:48:42 +0000 (WET) Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> Message-ID: <01RT8Z95PW3E8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> On 15-12-2020 10:40, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > It's nothing new. 15y ago or something, there were umpteen Communities > on Livejournal for any conceivable subject or interest -- most created > by kids without the wits to check for others' before creating their > own. What's Livejournal? Actually, after thinking about it some more, I probably don't want to know... (Don't you mean created by kids who think the existing community is boring / irrelevant / dominated by someone they don't agree with and think their new creation is going to be cool, interesting and open to all but have yet to discover that they don't have the ability to make this happen?) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 16 10:14:05 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 08:14:05 -0800 Subject: found it: first speech synthesizer (at least, for S-100 systems) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I sent away for the Computalker demo cassette tape back in the day. Maybe a copy is still on the web. I thought it was hilarious, particularly the singing. Now we get synthesized junk phone calls... --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Dec 16 10:21:45 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 10:21:45 -0600 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: <023a01d6d3a5$dafa9c50$90efd4f0$@gmail.com> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> <023a01d6d3a5$dafa9c50$90efd4f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5FDA3419.7060301@pico-systems.com> On 12/16/2020 06:20 AM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > Have you ever looked at USENET recently. Most groups are > moribund. Other are full of irrelevant garbage. I recently > considered submitting a request to close all UK groups > apart from "uk.d-i-y" as that seems to contain questions > and answers about everything from computer networking to > open heart surgery, Do it yourself HEART surgery??!!?? Yikes! I follow a number of usenet groups, but only a few of them are still really doing anything on topic. Jon From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 10:34:19 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 17:34:19 +0100 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: <01RT8Z95PW3E8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> <01RT8Z95PW3E8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 17:12, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > What's Livejournal? :-o It was one of the first free blogging sites, before WordPress or Blogger or the like. It has a number of forks, one of which is extant and alive: Dreamwidth. It's the site that memcached was written for. I've had a personal blog on there since 2002, and a technical one since I can't remember but not that much later. Like Google's Orkut, it ended up mainly popular in 1 geo-market -- Brazil for Orkut, Russia for LJ. Google just killed Orkut, as it does with a lot of its sites -- it didn't even make any effort to roll it into Wave or G+ or anything. LJ's founder sold it off, took the money and semi-retired. The management sold it off and now it's Russian-owned, but the English site still works fine. I just ignore the odd sponsored link in Russian. It has a great threaded commenting system, the basic free offering is all I need, and because I had 400+ friends on the site at its peak, whenever I post, a few dozen people with active accounts still see it, so it gets a bit of attention. It was always more community-oriented than very solipsistic sites such as WordPress or whatever. > (Don't you mean created by kids who think the existing community is > boring / irrelevant / dominated by someone they don't agree with and think > their new creation is going to be cool, interesting and open to all but > have yet to discover that they don't have the ability to make this happen?) Also could be, of course. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 16 11:20:52 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 09:20:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Dec 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 01:02, Mark J. Blair via cctalk > wrote: >> >> USENET is still around. But much like the rest of the infinite groups, it's not where everybody is. Sigh. > > True. In fact a colleague of mine at $DAYJOB is trying to resurrect > the Big 8 committee and get some active management occuring again. That would be glorious. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 12:13:09 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 19:13:09 +0100 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 18:20, geneb wrote: > > > That would be glorious. :) Looks like it's happened. https://www.big-8.org/wiki/Board_members https://events.opensuse.org/conferences/oSLO/program/proposals/3028 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 12:14:38 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 19:14:38 +0100 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: <5FDA3419.7060301@pico-systems.com> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> <023a01d6d3a5$dafa9c50$90efd4f0$@gmail.com> <5FDA3419.7060301@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 17:46, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Do it yourself HEART surgery??!!?? Yikes! As close as I've heard of: (1 b&w pic but not for the squeamish) https://web.archive.org/web/20121107053510/http://www.doctorross.co.za/antarctica/self-operation-tracking-down-a-good-story -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Dec 16 13:07:24 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 19:07:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: found it: first speech synthesizer (at least, for S-100 systems) References: <925261638.1473385.1608145644755.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <925261638.1473385.1608145644755@mail.yahoo.com> Have one filed in somewhere with all the s-100 boards... now I have a reason to dig it out! Yes... memories of Wirt's projects! Ed#?? smecc On Wednesday, December 16, 2020 Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: Very interesting Stan. Thank you for sharing this info Bill Degnan On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 2:43 AM Stan Sieler via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > Some years back, I was asking if anyone had information about the speech > synthesizer > developed for the Altair 8080 by Wirt Atmar of AICS (in New Mexico). > No "hits". > > Most places on the web claimed the Computalker was first, given the date as > 1976 or 1977. > > (Earlier speech synthesizes existed, but they were external boxes that one > interfaced to, > or were standalone (often with a large/weird keyboard).) > > Today, I stumbled over a fairly bad OCR of Byte magazine from August, 1976 > at > > https://archive.org/stream/byte-magazine-1976-08/1976_08_BYTE_00-12_Speech_Synthesis_djvu.txt > > It has two articles about speech synthesizers for S-100 bus systems. > > The first is by the Computalker people, who say: > > At the time this article > goes to press, a synthesizer > module incorporating several > detail refinements and im- > provements over the circuits > of this article is being de- > veloped by the author and > associates. > > and > > A detailed user's > guide will be supplied with the > Computalker module > > > Note the future tense! > > The second is by Wirt Atmar, whose product *was already shipping*. > > Near the end of his Byte article, Wirt lists currently available products: > > At the present time, two speech synthesizers > are both commercially available and affordable by > the hobbyist. > > One is the Votrax produced by: > > Vocal Interface Division > > Federal Screw Works > > 500 Stephenson Dr > > Troy Ml 48084 > > Price, approximately $2,000 > > Interfacing: Parallel or Serial (RS-232) > > > The second is the Model 1000 manufactured by: > > Ai Cybernetic Systems > > PO Box 4691 > > University Park NM 88003 > > Price, $425 > > > Wirt had told me (twenty years ago or so) that he thought his was the first > for microcomputers (e.g., a user installed card, not an external box). > Now, I'm sure ... but it was realllly close! > > Wirt demonstrated his product at the earlier MITS World Altair Computer > Conven- > tion, where it won first prize. > > He advertised it poorly/infrequently, since it was mostly a side business. > And, that shows, since history doesn't remember it. > > Stan > From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 13:13:35 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:13:35 -0700 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 2:52 PM Don Stalkowski via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > ll items are as-is and free. Pickup only here in London, ON. > [...] > Microprocessor Data Package - International Electronics Unlimited booklet > on IMP MM5750, MM5751 CPU set > I can't pick up in ON, unfortunately, but if someone who is in the area could please pick up this "Microprocessor Data Package" and ship it to me, I'd be willing to pay anything reasonable, or maybe slightly unreasonable. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 16 13:16:57 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 11:16:57 -0800 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> Message-ID: <33000d0d-deae-79e4-5572-689464a00d0e@bitsavers.org> On 12/16/20 11:13 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 2:52 PM Don Stalkowski via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> ll items are as-is and free. Pickup only here in London, ON. >> > [...] > >> Microprocessor Data Package - International Electronics Unlimited booklet >> on IMP MM5750, MM5751 CPU set >> > > I can't pick up in ON, unfortunately, but if someone who is in the area > could please pick up this "Microprocessor Data Package" and ship it to me, > I'd be willing to pay anything reasonable, or maybe slightly unreasonable. > And I'm interested in the General Automation and ITT Courier information From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 16 13:19:14 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 11:19:14 -0800 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: <33000d0d-deae-79e4-5572-689464a00d0e@bitsavers.org> References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <33000d0d-deae-79e4-5572-689464a00d0e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7fb30f4a-02b2-2fb7-5869-dbed02598650@bitsavers.org> On 12/16/20 11:16 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > And I'm interested in the General Automation and ITT Courier information I have the FE manual for the 270, but not the user's manual From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 16 13:20:41 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 14:20:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: misc stuff - free Message-ID: <20201216192041.1BA8118C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I can't pick up in ON, unfortunately, but if someone who is in the area > could please pick up this "Microprocessor Data Package" and ship it to > me, I'd be willing to pay anything reasonable, or maybe slightly > unreasonable. You probably know this already, but if you're willing to pay, there are 'pack and ship' services who will show up at a location, take the stuff to be shipped, go pack it up, and ship it. I have used PakMail: http://www.pakmailcanada.com/ several times to retrieve things in this way (they shipped my PDP-11/45 from Ontario, although the seller did a lot of the packaging in that particular case), and have generally been happy with them. I don't see a London location, but maybe one of their other Ontario locations: http://www.pakmailcanada.com/pakmail-canada-locations is close enough to be useable? Noel From osi.superboard at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 14:01:41 2020 From: osi.superboard at gmail.com (osi.superboard) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 20:01:41 +0000 Subject: found it: first speech synthesizer (at least, for S-100 systems) In-Reply-To: <925261638.1473385.1608145644755@mail.yahoo.com> References: <925261638.1473385.1608145644755.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <925261638.1473385.1608145644755@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: great to read this IEEE article , also about the ti speech synthesizer.... see: https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/silicon-revolution/25-microchips-that-shook-the-world Am 16.12.2020 um 19:07 schrieb ED SHARPE via cctalk: > Have one filed in somewhere with all the s-100 boards... now I have a reason to dig it out! Yes... memories of Wirt's projects! > Ed#?? smecc > On Wednesday, December 16, 2020 Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Very interesting Stan. > Thank you for sharing this info > Bill Degnan > > On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 2:43 AM Stan Sieler via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Some years back, I was asking if anyone had information about the speech >> synthesizer >> developed for the Altair 8080 by Wirt Atmar of AICS (in New Mexico). >> No "hits". >> >> Most places on the web claimed the Computalker was first, given the date as >> 1976 or 1977. >> >> (Earlier speech synthesizes existed, but they were external boxes that one >> interfaced to, >> or were standalone (often with a large/weird keyboard).) >> >> Today, I stumbled over a fairly bad OCR of Byte magazine from August, 1976 >> at >> >> https://archive.org/stream/byte-magazine-1976-08/1976_08_BYTE_00-12_Speech_Synthesis_djvu.txt >> >> It has two articles about speech synthesizers for S-100 bus systems. >> >> The first is by the Computalker people, who say: >> >> At the time this article >> goes to press, a synthesizer >> module incorporating several >> detail refinements and im- >> provements over the circuits >> of this article is being de- >> veloped by the author and >> associates. >> >> and >> >> A detailed user's >> guide will be supplied with the >> Computalker module >> >> >> Note the future tense! >> >> The second is by Wirt Atmar, whose product *was already shipping*. >> >> Near the end of his Byte article, Wirt lists currently available products: >> >> At the present time, two speech synthesizers >> are both commercially available and affordable by >> the hobbyist. >> >> One is the Votrax produced by: >> >> Vocal Interface Division >> >> Federal Screw Works >> >> 500 Stephenson Dr >> >> Troy Ml 48084 >> >> Price, approximately $2,000 >> >> Interfacing: Parallel or Serial (RS-232) >> >> >> The second is the Model 1000 manufactured by: >> >> Ai Cybernetic Systems >> >> PO Box 4691 >> >> University Park NM 88003 >> >> Price, $425 >> >> >> Wirt had told me (twenty years ago or so) that he thought his was the first >> for microcomputers (e.g., a user installed card, not an external box). >> Now, I'm sure ... but it was realllly close! >> >> Wirt demonstrated his product at the earlier MITS World Altair Computer >> Conven- >> tion, where it won first prize. >> >> He advertised it poorly/infrequently, since it was mostly a side business. >> And, that shows, since history doesn't remember it. >> >> Stan >> From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 16 14:23:47 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:23:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Dec 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 18:20, geneb wrote: >> >> >> That would be glorious. :) > > Looks like it's happened. > > https://www.big-8.org/wiki/Board_members > That's fantastic! They need to get the site cert fixed though. Hopefully Cancel Moose can return too. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 14:35:48 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 15:35:48 -0500 Subject: found it: first speech synthesizer (at least, for S-100 systems) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We had a Votrax in our lab at DEC around that time, we set it up with a photo detector to trigger a phrase when someone walked by. IIRC programing the sounds used a phoneme library... that was fun figuring out before we finally got the manual!! bb On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 11:14 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I sent away for the Computalker demo cassette tape back in the day. > > Maybe a copy is still on the web. I thought it was hilarious, > particularly the singing. > > Now we get synthesized junk phone calls... > > --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 14:46:21 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 21:46:21 +0100 Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 21:23, geneb wrote: > > Hopefully Cancel Moose can return too. :) http://cm.org/ ...? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Dec 16 15:05:44 2020 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 13:05:44 -0800 Subject: found it: first speech synthesizer (at least, for S-100 systems) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54a6e330-b6d6-b952-1657-f989be913124@mainecoon.com> On 12/16/20 12:35 PM, Bob Smith via cctech wrote: > We had a Votrax in our lab at DEC around that time, we set it up with > a photo detector to trigger a phrase when someone walked by. IIRC > programing the sounds used a phoneme library... that was fun figuring > out before we finally got the manual!! Yep; it was all phoneme based, which made puzzling out how to use it interesting. Ours had an effective upper limit of speed at which you could pipe serial data at it before it suffered a buffer overrun; you could tell when that happened because it would, for want of a better term, start to wail (it would occasionally do that on reset as well). Interesting piece of kit; IIRC it arrived as an encapsulated brick with wires hanging out... -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Dec 16 15:33:17 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 16:33:17 -0500 Subject: found it: first speech synthesizer (at least, for S-100 systems) In-Reply-To: <54a6e330-b6d6-b952-1657-f989be913124@mainecoon.com> References: <54a6e330-b6d6-b952-1657-f989be913124@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: Was that the Federal Screw Works one? I had one on a pdp8/I way back when and it was cute, but by that time the Votrax on a chip was out so it was more of a curiousity. I think Don Hopkins screwed a Votrax onto a Sun2's serial bus so it would chatter phonemes as he used the system. CZ On 12/16/2020 4:05 PM, Christian Kennedy via cctech wrote: > > On 12/16/20 12:35 PM, Bob Smith via cctech wrote: > >> We had a Votrax in our lab at DEC around that time, we set it up with >> a photo detector to trigger a phrase when someone walked by. IIRC >> programing the sounds used a phoneme library... that was fun figuring >> out before we finally got the manual!! > > Yep; it was all phoneme based, which made puzzling out how to use it > interesting. Ours had an effective upper limit of speed at which you > could pipe serial data at it before it suffered a buffer overrun; you > could tell when that happened because it would, for want of a better > term, start to wail (it would occasionally do that on reset as well). > > Interesting piece of kit; IIRC it arrived as an encapsulated brick with > wires hanging out... > From robinson at tuberadio.com Wed Dec 16 17:40:54 2020 From: robinson at tuberadio.com (robinson at tuberadio.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 23:40:54 -0000 Subject: IBM lamps required Message-ID: <9ec2940edf39195566780f8712316f6b.squirrel@ringtail.possums.net.au> Hi all, I am setting up an IBM 2803 and 2804 INTEFACE test panel. I need some lamps and lamp holders for it, lamp voltage not important, lamp color not important. Does anyone have any for sale or know where I can get some please. 17 lamps required 5 lamp holders required Pictures here.... www.tuberadio.com/robinson/Swaps/Wanted/panel.JPG www.tuberadio.com/robinson/Swaps/Wanted/Lamp1.JPG www.tuberadio.com/robinson/Swaps/Wanted/Lamp2.JPG www.tuberadio.com/robinson/Swaps/Wanted/Lamp3.JPG www.tuberadio.com/robinson/Swaps/Wanted/lampholder1.JPG www.tuberadio.com/robinson/Swaps/Wanted/lampholder2.JPG Regards Ray From philpem at philpem.me.uk Thu Dec 17 04:22:33 2020 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Phil Pemberton) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 10:22:33 +0000 Subject: WTD - Jupiter Ace plastic rivets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Quick update on the Jupiter Ace rivets -- I've found some. RWAP Services are selling them on "Sell My Retro". Five for ?9. They also have the plastic rivets for the ZX80 - they're similar, but a mix of black and white. Cheers. -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk https://www.philpem.me.uk/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Dec 17 08:49:02 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 06:49:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: misc stuff - free In-Reply-To: References: <20201214163701.BE762BEEC8F@cel2.x> <4afcfe8a-80ad-ef4b-1a05-119c5006305d@julf.com> <70f087f0-c8f7-3959-39a3-704330cd096b@julf.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Dec 2020, Liam Proven wrote: > On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 21:23, geneb wrote: >> >> Hopefully Cancel Moose can return too. :) > > http://cm.org/ > Yes, but sadly it didn't work the way my memory told me it did. I remember it as an issuer of cancel messages, not some kind of labeling system. It's entirely possible I'm confusing it with something else. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Dec 17 10:42:14 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 10:42:14 -0600 Subject: IBM lamps required In-Reply-To: <9ec2940edf39195566780f8712316f6b.squirrel@ringtail.possums.net.au> References: <9ec2940edf39195566780f8712316f6b.squirrel@ringtail.possums.net.au> Message-ID: <5FDB8A66.70201@pico-systems.com> On 12/16/2020 05:40 PM, robinson--- via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > I am setting up an IBM 2803 and 2804 INTEFACE test panel. > I need some lamps and lamp holders for it, > lamp voltage not important, > lamp color not important. > > Does anyone have any for sale > or know where I can get some please. > > These are going to be VERY hard to find. Some people have saved 360 front panels, but are not likely to part with the bulbs. What you might need to do, if function is not required, is to get a single lamp from somebody, and 3D print some pieces to assemble into a facsimile. These lamps were not off-the-shelf items, but were either made internally by IBM or made for them. They were used on a wide range of IBM machinery from that time period. We used to have an ashtray on the CPU console with a dozen or more of them, so the operators could replace them when they burned out. Obviously, millions of burned out ones were thrown out. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 17 10:47:24 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 08:47:24 -0800 Subject: IBM lamps required In-Reply-To: <5FDB8A66.70201@pico-systems.com> References: <9ec2940edf39195566780f8712316f6b.squirrel@ringtail.possums.net.au> <5FDB8A66.70201@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <7f244a33-9b53-1dab-1d1f-103095170994@bitsavers.org> you can find images of what the lamp assemblies look like here https://vaxbarn.com/index.php/22-360?start=10 From athornton at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 23:33:19 2020 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 22:33:19 -0700 Subject: IBM lamps required In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <364443E2-6C64-4EA2-A334-236C5931A2E4@gmail.com> > > On 12/16/2020 05:40 PM, robinson--- via cctalk wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I am setting up an IBM 2803 and 2804 INTEFACE test panel. >> I need some lamps and lamp holders for it, >> lamp voltage not important, >> lamp color not important. >> >> Does anyone have any for sale >> or know where I can get some please. >> >> > These are going to be VERY hard to find. Some people have > saved 360 front panels, but are not likely to part with the > bulbs. What you might need to do, if function is not > required, is to get a single lamp from somebody, and 3D > print some pieces to assemble into a facsimile. Last time I was at the Living Computer Museum, I talked to the guy restoring their 370 panel, who was using LEDs, because the original bulbs are all but unobtainable and do not lave a long service life. This is likely to be something you end up needing to approximate with modern components. Adam From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Dec 18 02:42:21 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 00:42:21 -0800 Subject: Tape baking page by Wendy Carlos Message-ID: <91b30f48-0ca1-3b14-c2f8-997b933ecd4a@jwsss.com> I ran across a reference to this on FB.? It appears to be from 2008, so may be well known or obsolete material. The other interesting info at the end of the article is the contact name and info about someone who restores or works on tape heads. Might be interesting to at least contact and ask if he's still around http://www.wendycarlos.com/bake%20a%20tape/baketape.html Contact John French, at JRF Magnetic Sciences (973-579-5773) for further details on magnetic tape head restoration and storage, and other related services and products. FB page with the info. https://www.facebook.com/ReelToReelTapeRecorders/photos/a.532104240183459/3658145454245973/ The fellow who does a lot of tape recorder (reel to reel) repair has a FB group worth dropping in on.? This is the link to a photo with a pretty bad Ampex head. thanks Jim From poc at pocnet.net Fri Dec 18 03:29:20 2020 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 10:29:20 +0100 Subject: Tape baking page by Wendy Carlos In-Reply-To: <91b30f48-0ca1-3b14-c2f8-997b933ecd4a@jwsss.com> References: <91b30f48-0ca1-3b14-c2f8-997b933ecd4a@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <37282BF0-C590-4228-937D-EE6A496B8459@pocnet.net> Hello Jim, Am 18.12.2020 um 09:42 schrieb jim stephens via cctalk : > I ran across a reference to this on FB. It appears to be from 2008, so may be well known or obsolete material. > > The other interesting info at the end of the article is the contact name and info about someone who restores or works on tape heads. > > Might be interesting to at least contact and ask if he's still around > > http://www.wendycarlos.com/bake%20a%20tape/baketape.html Thanks for sharing this interesting read! I have a bunch of analog audio tapes, some most likely also very old. :wq! PoC From tomas at basun.net Fri Dec 18 19:43:50 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 02:43:50 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <87im8yo9ih.wl-tomas@basun.net> Everybody, Am experimenting with a HP 200LX and cc:Mail v. 8.1, and would like to know more about `interactive mode.' There is a choice when connecting between `copy & disconnect' and `interactive.' When I try the latter I get a pop-up window saying The version of Router you are connecting to does NOT support interactive mode! The version of the router program is `cc:Mail NT ROUTER Version 6.10.00.4' In the following article https://www.palmtoppaper.com/ptphtml/30/pt300054.htm it says `I have noticed that cc:Mail Mobile lacks some of the capabilities of the desktop version: 1. cc:Mail Mobile only allows me to "Copy unread mail and disconnect." [...] 2. cc:Mail on your desktop allows for an "Interactive connection to Post Office." Whenever an e-mail message comes in you get beeped. You can compose a reply on the spot and send it off immediately.' This desktop version is apparently Windows cc:Mail version 2.0 But it seems odd that there would be an option for it on the Palmtop (and described at some length in the manual) if it just was not available. Does anybody know the conditions for using interactive mode? Which versions of the router program supports it? /Tomas From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 20:04:06 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 21:04:06 -0500 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <87im8yo9ih.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87im8yo9ih.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 8:44 PM Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > Everybody, > > Am experimenting with a HP 200LX and cc:Mail v. 8.1, and would like to > know more about `interactive mode.' There is a choice when connecting > between `copy & disconnect' and `interactive.' When I try the latter I > get a pop-up window saying > > The version of Router you are > connecting to does NOT support > interactive mode! > > The version of the router program is `cc:Mail NT ROUTER Version 6.10.00.4' > > In the following article > https://www.palmtoppaper.com/ptphtml/30/pt300054.htm > it says > `I have noticed that cc:Mail Mobile lacks some of the capabilities of the > desktop version: > > 1. cc:Mail Mobile only allows me to "Copy unread mail and disconnect." > [...] > 2. cc:Mail on your desktop allows for an "Interactive connection to > Post Office." Whenever an e-mail message comes in you get > beeped. You can compose a reply on the spot and send it off immediately.' > > This desktop version is apparently Windows cc:Mail version 2.0 > > But it seems odd that there would be an option for it on the Palmtop > (and described at some length in the manual) if it just was not > available. > > Does anybody know the conditions for using interactive mode? Which > versions of the router program supports it? > > /Tomas > Tomas, Do you have a functioning Novell network set up with networking hardware? Bill From tomas at basun.net Fri Dec 18 20:09:05 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 03:09:05 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87im8yo9ih.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <87czz6o8ce.wl-tomas@basun.net> On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 03:04:06 +0100, Bill Degnan wrote: > Do you have a functioning Novell network set up with networking hardware? Eh, no? I am using a direct `null modem' connection. /Tomas From jim.manley at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 22:10:29 2020 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 21:10:29 -0700 Subject: Tape baking page by Wendy Carlos In-Reply-To: <91b30f48-0ca1-3b14-c2f8-997b933ecd4a@jwsss.com> References: <91b30f48-0ca1-3b14-c2f8-997b933ecd4a@jwsss.com> Message-ID: http://www.wendycarlos.com/bake%20a%20tape/baketape.html Wendy Carlos is the performer who produced "Switched-On Bach", the soundtrack for "A Clockwork Orange", "Sonic Seasonings", and a bunch of other amazing recordings created on single-voice Moog synthesizers, using multi-track tape recorders equipped with the sound-with-sound feature, to build upwards of dozens of simultaneous chords and parts. On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 1:42 AM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I ran across a reference to this on FB. It appears to be from 2008, so > may be well known or obsolete material. > > The other interesting info at the end of the article is the contact name > and info about someone who restores or works on tape heads. > > Might be interesting to at least contact and ask if he's still around > > http://www.wendycarlos.com/bake%20a%20tape/baketape.html > > > Contact John French, at JRF Magnetic Sciences (973-579-5773) for further > details on magnetic tape head restoration and storage, and other related > services and products. > > FB page with the info. > > > https://www.facebook.com/ReelToReelTapeRecorders/photos/a.532104240183459/3658145454245973/ > > The fellow who does a lot of tape recorder (reel to reel) repair has a > FB group worth dropping in on. This is the link to a photo with a > pretty bad Ampex head. > > thanks > Jim > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 18 22:25:17 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 20:25:17 -0800 Subject: Tape baking page by Wendy Carlos In-Reply-To: References: <91b30f48-0ca1-3b14-c2f8-997b933ecd4a@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 12/18/20 8:10 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > http://www.wendycarlos.com/bake%20a%20tape/baketape.html > > Wendy Carlos is the performer who produced "Switched-On Bach", the > soundtrack for "A Clockwork Orange", "Sonic Seasonings", and a bunch of > other amazing recordings created on single-voice Moog synthesizers, using > multi-track tape recorders equipped with the sound-with-sound feature, to > build upwards of dozens of simultaneous chords and parts. She was "Walter" back then. I remember how much I didn't like the album. The Third Brandenburg was way too fast for those used to Otto Klemperer tempi. Of course, times change and that tempo seems to be the current standard. That third movement must be murder on the basses. --Chuck From tomas at basun.net Sat Dec 19 23:41:31 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2020 06:41:31 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <87im8yo9ih.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87im8yo9ih.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <874kkhjapg.wl-tomas@basun.net> Hi again, Another snippet. In the 200LX manual http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/bpia5259.pdf it says (p. 29-2): Interactive Connection, which is a continuous connection to your Post Office that you can make if your Post Office meets certain conditions---ask your Post Office Administrator. Have searched the cc:Mail documentation I have access to for "interactive" without finding anything. What are these conditions? /Tomas On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 02:43:50 +0100, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > Everybody, > > Am experimenting with a HP 200LX and cc:Mail v. 8.1, and would like to > know more about `interactive mode.' There is a choice when connecting > between `copy & disconnect' and `interactive.' When I try the latter I > get a pop-up window saying > > The version of Router you are > connecting to does NOT support > interactive mode! > > The version of the router program is `cc:Mail NT ROUTER Version 6.10.00.4' > > In the following article > https://www.palmtoppaper.com/ptphtml/30/pt300054.htm > it says > `I have noticed that cc:Mail Mobile lacks some of the capabilities of the desktop version: > > 1. cc:Mail Mobile only allows me to "Copy unread mail and disconnect." [...] > 2. cc:Mail on your desktop allows for an "Interactive connection to > Post Office." Whenever an e-mail message comes in you get > beeped. You can compose a reply on the spot and send it off immediately.' > > This desktop version is apparently Windows cc:Mail version 2.0 > > But it seems odd that there would be an option for it on the Palmtop > (and described at some length in the manual) if it just was not > available. > > Does anybody know the conditions for using interactive mode? Which > versions of the router program supports it? > > /Tomas From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 20 14:27:23 2020 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2020 12:27:23 -0800 Subject: VAX-11 Assembly Language Programming References: <66b87839020c3586849528bc72ba8d112852c575.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <66b87839020c3586849528bc72ba8d112852c575.camel@sbcglobal.net> I've put "VAX-11 Assembly Language Programming" by Sara Baase on EBay. The item number is 224285749599. Van Snyder van.snyder at sbcglobal.net From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Dec 21 10:12:12 2020 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 17:12:12 +0100 Subject: Intermec 8625 printer Message-ID: <5cc8ea40-d594-cbc4-1d0d-6c208575428d@farumdata.dk> Hi all, I'm hoping to get an answer here. The 8625 barcode printer has a prompting mode, switched on by activating the bottom switch in a bank of switches. The printer is then supposed to write a prompt, so you can start programming the label formats. I seem to remember that the printer expects a CTRL+H sequence to be reset/restarted, but nothing happens. Can any of you remember the settings for the terminal (I do know about 9600,7,1,even) ? I'm not sure on which terminal the printer expects to write to. VT100 ? ANSI? ? And how about flow control? Any help would be appreciated Regards Nico PS The printer is to be used for museum purposes, and as usual, the museum has no money to spend :-( From Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk Mon Dec 21 13:08:14 2020 From: Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 19:08:14 +0000 Subject: RL02 Tracking Message-ID: <91bim8vyo2q.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> Hi everyone I've posted a few times over the years about RL02 drives and my difficulty getting them working (no luck so far!). I've spent the past few days working on one of them and have made some progress. The status currently is that the heads will load, and the ready lamp flashes as the heads wobble back and forth very slightly, trying to lock onto the outer servo guard band. Probing TP2 of the read/write module, I can see the S1 servo burst flash (roughly in time with the ready lamp). If I disconnect power to the servo motor, I can manually move the head onto the outer guard band (less than a mm away) and monitoring the position signal (TP15 on the drive logic module) shows this to be close to 0. So, I'm very confused. I've worked through chapter 3 multiple times... - voltage checks - all good - sector transducer output check - all good - sector pulse timing check - all good - read signal amplitude check and adjustment - all good - positioner radial alignment - required some tweeking but is good now - head alignment - looks good to me - spindle runout check - a little noisy but within spec - position signal gain check - looked ok - tachometer ac noise pickup check - this one didnt look so good Supposedly if the main drive motor is bad it will emit noise and cause the tachometer (just a coil of wire on the head carriage) to produce spikes. Mine does look quite noisy but I'm not sure what's causing it. I would expect that if it was picking up noise, I'd be able to detect this with my oscilloscope probe by putting it close to the motor, but I can't. Any ideas? Also, thanks to pjustice on irc who suggested checking the spindle grounding button. Mine is very worn out but I've been able to apply some pressure to it from the under side which reduces the resistance of the spindle to ground, from 400 ohm to 0 ohm. This didn't make the situation any better though. Still, the situation over all is much better now than it was last time I looked at the drive (over two years ago now I think). Previously the heads would attempt to load and then the fault lamp would come on immediately. At least now it's trying to lock onto a track. I have the same results with two cartridges (which is all I have!). If anyone has any ideas I'd love to hear them! Aaron (Sorry, as usual, about the footer appended by my university.) This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender and delete the email and attachment. Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the University of Nottingham. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored where permitted by law. From Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk Mon Dec 21 17:08:04 2020 From: Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 23:08:04 +0000 Subject: RL02 Tracking In-Reply-To: <91bim8vyo2q.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> References: <91bim8vyo2q.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> Message-ID: <91bft3yzrjf.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> On 21 December 2020 at 19:08 GMT, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Supposedly if the main drive motor is bad it will emit noise and cause > the tachometer (just a coil of wire on the head carriage) to produce > spikes. Mine does look quite noisy but I'm not sure what's causing it. I > would expect that if it was picking up noise, I'd be able to detect this > with my oscilloscope probe by putting it close to the motor, but I > can't. Any ideas? > > Also, thanks to pjustice on irc who suggested checking the spindle > grounding button. Mine is very worn out but I've been able to apply some > pressure to it from the under side which reduces the resistance of the > spindle to ground, from 400 ohm to 0 ohm. This didn't make the situation > any better though. This signal appears to be normal and traces back to the seek control ROM. The question is what causes this output to become high. Presumably the 'tachometer AC noise check' does not account for whatever the issue is with my drive. Will probe the rest of the ROM outputs tomorrow and continue to trace backwards. Aaron This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender and delete the email and attachment. Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the University of Nottingham. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored where permitted by law. From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Dec 21 17:09:27 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 17:09:27 -0600 Subject: RL02 Tracking In-Reply-To: <91bim8vyo2q.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> References: <91bim8vyo2q.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5FE12B27.50902@pico-systems.com> On 12/21/2020 01:08 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Hi everyone > > I've posted a few times over the years about RL02 drives and my > difficulty getting them working (no luck so far!). I've spent the past > few days working on one of them and have made some progress. > > The status currently is that the heads will load, and the ready lamp > flashes as the heads wobble back and forth very slightly, I dropped an RL02 cartridge, and needed to get it to load one more time to get programs off it. The ready lamp was a dim, slightly flickering glow. I figured the platter had been knocked off center. I loosened the bolts at tapped it a bit until it looked better centered. It took a couple tries, but then the ready light came on fully bright, and I was able to mount the disk and read it. I don't know if that could be your problem. If you get a solid servo signal with the motor disconnected, then this is not the same problem. Jon From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 17:16:06 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 15:16:06 -0800 Subject: RL02 Tracking In-Reply-To: <5FE12B27.50902@pico-systems.com> References: <91bim8vyo2q.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> <5FE12B27.50902@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 3:09 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 12/21/2020 01:08 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi everyone > > > > I've posted a few times over the years about RL02 drives and my > > difficulty getting them working (no luck so far!). I've spent the past > > few days working on one of them and have made some progress. > > > > The status currently is that the heads will load, and the ready lamp > > flashes as the heads wobble back and forth very slightly, > I dropped an RL02 cartridge, and needed to get it to load > one more time to get programs off it. > The ready lamp was a dim, slightly flickering glow. I > figured the platter had been knocked off center. > I loosened the bolts at tapped it a bit until it looked > better centered. It took a couple tries, but then the ready > light came on fully bright, and I was able to mount the disk > and read it. > > I don't know if that could be your problem. If you get a > solid servo signal with the motor disconnected, then this is > not the same problem. > To add my two cents, I've also seen this behavior on RL02 packs that have been degaussed. It might be worth your time to find someone with a known working RL02 drive (or known working RL02 pack) so you can confirm that your packs are good. - Josh > > Jon > From Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk Mon Dec 21 17:38:55 2020 From: Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 23:38:55 +0000 Subject: RL02 Tracking In-Reply-To: References: <91bim8vyo2q.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> <5FE12B27.50902@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <91beejizq40.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> >> > I've posted a few times over the years about RL02 drives and my >> > difficulty getting them working (no luck so far!). I've spent the past >> > few days working on one of them and have made some progress. >> > >> > The status currently is that the heads will load, and the ready lamp >> > flashes as the heads wobble back and forth very slightly, >> I dropped an RL02 cartridge, and needed to get it to load >> one more time to get programs off it. >> The ready lamp was a dim, slightly flickering glow. I >> figured the platter had been knocked off center. >> I loosened the bolts at tapped it a bit until it looked >> better centered. It took a couple tries, but then the ready >> light came on fully bright, and I was able to mount the disk >> and read it. >> >> I don't know if that could be your problem. If you get a >> solid servo signal with the motor disconnected, then this is >> not the same problem. >> > > To add my two cents, I've also seen this behavior on RL02 packs that have > been degaussed. It might be worth your time to find someone with a known > working RL02 drive (or known working RL02 pack) so you can confirm that > your packs are good. Thanks Jon, that's handy to know for the future but indeed solid servo signals with the motor disconnected. Presumably the servo bursts would not be visible if the cartridges had been erased that way, since this is encoded in the data tracks themselves. However, it does make me wonder if the cartridges have just been exposed to some wild temperature fluctuations, since the signal from either appears to be a little weak. I suppose the worst thing this would lead to in my case is over compensating the read/write head adjustment, which means actually good cartridges don't work. I'll try and get hold of another cartridge from a friend once it's safe to do so. Although, he hasn't attempted to get his RL02 drives working yet so... Cheers, Aaron This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender and delete the email and attachment. Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the University of Nottingham. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored where permitted by law. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 18:11:44 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 18:11:44 -0600 Subject: tty and video displays In-Reply-To: <4EF58614-AE38-4C11-B98C-1740D2798D9A@shaw.ca> References: <57102D9D-9F28-4E3D-9A5D-37DCFBBBEC48@shaw.ca> <2d4e317a-61ab-5edf-1935-b4073b943073@gmail.com> <4EF58614-AE38-4C11-B98C-1740D2798D9A@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <1639a612-ea54-0bf9-7e38-32b7fd22006d@gmail.com> On 12/14/20 10:06 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-Dec-14, at 7:57 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On 12/14/20 4:41 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Yes. Coincidentally I've just been refurbishing one - a Teleray >>> 3931. It's an ASCII/APL terminal, overstriking was included for the >>> APL mode. http://madrona.ca/e/teleray3931/index.html >> >> Holy cow, I have that keyboard. > ... >> (It's definitely -12V, not -5V? I'm just thinking that the -12V noted >> on your schematic is quite close the the 15V rating on the cap - >> although that could explain why my later setup got caps rated to 35V, >> too) > > I don't remember whether I traced it or measured it, but I'm fairy > confident, Vgg = -12 is pretty common for GI MOS ICs. I'll try to > remember to double-check it when I have the unit opened again. Hey, Just a heads-up, I finally got around to hooking it up - and it works just fine on -5V. I'm not inclined to try -12V just in case it cooks, but I suppose it's possible that it just needs some -ve voltage "more than x" and so -12V is perfectly acceptable, too. Or maybe I just got lucky and this IC is happy on -5V where some might not be. I'm pretty happy that it's alive, anyway. I need to figure out what's going on with the spacebar (it currently doesn't sit level), but time to figure out some frankenproject for it! cheers Jules From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 21 19:04:08 2020 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 17:04:08 -0800 Subject: Wordperfect 6.0 for DOS References: Message-ID: I've put Wordperfect 6.0 for DOS on EBay, item number 224280064405 Van Snyder van.snyder at sbcglobal.net From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 21 19:38:11 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 20:38:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 Tracking Message-ID: <20201222013811.E54F218C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > RL02 packs that have been degaussed. Might as well hammer nails through them. "To keep the heads properly aligned on the tracks, it used a servo system driven by servo data written on the pack (along with sector headers) at the factory. Packs cannnot be low-level re-formatted in the field". Noel From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Dec 22 00:17:31 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 22:17:31 -0800 Subject: Keyboard storage Message-ID: I have a bunch of Sun keyboards that I need to store more efficiently and don't want to risk damaging by stacking on top of each other. They are Type 4s, 5s, and 6s (without the wrist rest), maybe 10 in total. Anyone here know of a box or boxes that would work well for this? alan From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Dec 22 00:26:06 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 23:26:06 -0700 Subject: Keyboard storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe contact a shipping supply company. They have a number of boxes likely to be suitable. Warner On Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 11:17 PM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > I have a bunch of Sun keyboards that I need to store more efficiently > and don't want to risk damaging by stacking on top of each other. They > are Type 4s, 5s, and 6s (without the wrist rest), maybe 10 in total. > Anyone here know of a box or boxes that would work well for this? > > alan > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Dec 22 00:42:29 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 22:42:29 -0800 Subject: Keyboard storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00b801d6d82d$a0244db0$e06ce910$@net> > I have a bunch of Sun keyboards that I need to store more efficiently > and don't want to risk damaging by stacking on top of each other. They > are Type 4s, 5s, and 6s (without the wrist rest), maybe 10 in total. > Anyone here know of a box or boxes that would work well for this? > > alan Alan, If you have the room you can get free (you have to order them but they cost nothing and are shipped free) "game board" boxes from the USPS. These are perfect for KBs. In fact this is what I use when shipping KBs. -Ali From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Dec 22 00:51:06 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 22:51:06 -0800 Subject: Keyboard storage In-Reply-To: <00b801d6d82d$a0244db0$e06ce910$@net> References: <00b801d6d82d$a0244db0$e06ce910$@net> Message-ID: <87c4b581-8f3f-ab65-27d3-51253899acd2@snowmoose.com> On 12/21/20 10:42 PM, Ali wrote: >> I have a bunch of Sun keyboards that I need to store more efficiently >> and don't want to risk damaging by stacking on top of each other. They >> are Type 4s, 5s, and 6s (without the wrist rest), maybe 10 in total. >> Anyone here know of a box or boxes that would work well for this? >> >> alan > > Alan, > > If you have the room you can get free (you have to order them but they cost nothing and are shipped free) "game board" boxes from the USPS. These are perfect for KBs. In fact this is what I use when shipping KBs. > > -Ali Is this the USPS large flat rate box size that isn't the rectangular one that post offices usually have. I just noticed the size mentioned on the Click-N-Ship site. alan From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Dec 22 00:54:43 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 22:54:43 -0800 Subject: Keyboard storage In-Reply-To: <87c4b581-8f3f-ab65-27d3-51253899acd2@snowmoose.com> References: <00b801d6d82d$a0244db0$e06ce910$@net> <87c4b581-8f3f-ab65-27d3-51253899acd2@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <00b901d6d82f$5497b7e0$fdc727a0$@net> > Is this the USPS large flat rate box size that isn't the rectangular > one > that post offices usually have. I just noticed the size mentioned on > the > Click-N-Ship site. > > alan Yes. It is not usually stocked at the PO. You have to "order" them from the USPS website. They have the measurements there so you can verify your KBs will fit. However, I have shipped IBM 122 key terminal KBs in them without issues. Only thing that may not fit would be some of the older IBM KBs (like the ones on the Displaywriter). -Ali From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 22 00:59:14 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 22:59:14 -0800 Subject: Keyboard storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try ULine (uline.com). They have a keyboard shipping box (p/n S-6496). They're only $2.70/ea but the minimum order is 25. :-( TTFN - Guy On Mon, 2020-12-21 at 22:17 -0800, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > I have a bunch of Sun keyboards that I need to store more > efficiently > and don't want to risk damaging by stacking on top of each other. > They > are Type 4s, 5s, and 6s (without the wrist rest), maybe 10 in total. > Anyone here know of a box or boxes that would work well for this? > > alan From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Dec 22 01:05:50 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 23:05:50 -0800 Subject: Keyboard storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a1b117-f05a-52d0-1a94-219478da771e@snowmoose.com> Thanks. I had seen that one before, but didn't know what to do with the extra 15 boxes. The USPS box has the advantages of being free and being a box I am more likely to use to ship something with (because of the flat rate price and not having to deal with weighing the box). alan On 12/21/20 10:59 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Try ULine (uline.com). They have a keyboard shipping box (p/n S-6496). > They're only $2.70/ea but the minimum order is 25. :-( > > TTFN - Guy > > On Mon, 2020-12-21 at 22:17 -0800, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> I have a bunch of Sun keyboards that I need to store more >> efficiently >> and don't want to risk damaging by stacking on top of each other. >> They >> are Type 4s, 5s, and 6s (without the wrist rest), maybe 10 in total. >> Anyone here know of a box or boxes that would work well for this? >> >> alan > From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 22 01:13:13 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 23:13:13 -0800 Subject: Keyboard storage In-Reply-To: <00a1b117-f05a-52d0-1a94-219478da771e@snowmoose.com> References: <00a1b117-f05a-52d0-1a94-219478da771e@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <835d659708ca12694344e8f09014ed3b34abb193.camel@shiresoft.com> No worries. I use Uline for all sorts of stuff and they generally deliver within 2 days (even out here in the boonies). I always find a use for any extras. ;-) I generally avoid USPS partly because they don't deliver to our house, so we have a P.O. Box (which means I have to talk to the shipper to determine what method they use for shipping so I can give them the right address). Frankly, I don't understand because UPS and FedEx deliver right to our door (although sometimes it's fun to figure out *which* door they left the package at). TTFN - Guy On Mon, 2020-12-21 at 23:05 -0800, Alan Perry wrote: > Thanks. I had seen that one before, but didn't know what to do with > the > extra 15 boxes. > > The USPS box has the advantages of being free and being a box I am > more > likely to use to ship something with (because of the flat rate price > and > not having to deal with weighing the box). > > alan > > On 12/21/20 10:59 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > Try ULine (uline.com). They have a keyboard shipping box (p/n S- > > 6496). > > They're only $2.70/ea but the minimum order is 25. :-( > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > > On Mon, 2020-12-21 at 22:17 -0800, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > I have a bunch of Sun keyboards that I need to store more > > > efficiently > > > and don't want to risk damaging by stacking on top of each other. > > > They > > > are Type 4s, 5s, and 6s (without the wrist rest), maybe 10 in > > > total. > > > Anyone here know of a box or boxes that would work well for this? > > > > > > alan From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Dec 22 01:48:03 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 07:48:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Keyboard storage References: <344823443.3332763.1608623283660.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <344823443.3332763.1608623283660@mail.yahoo.com> Had a ibm orig pc key board shipped in large flat rate. Game size box.? Alas was,dropped on. Ornery and torn some on box... I had to remount keyboard pc inside that had moved lo and neef nd one of the corner edge til tje kry bad snapped off...??? that particular Clicky keyb I ad is extremely heavy for first ever ibm pc.??? Be ware? pack really well...... Help anyone got parts for the tilter ...thing? for these keyboards???? ...ed sharpe On Monday, December 21, 2020 Ali via cctalk wrote: > Is this the USPS large flat rate box size that isn't the rectangular > one > that post offices usually have. I just noticed the size mentioned on > the > Click-N-Ship site. > > alan Yes. It is not usually stocked at the PO. You have to "order" them from the USPS website. They have the measurements there so you can verify your KBs will fit. However, I have shipped IBM 122 key terminal KBs in them without issues. Only thing that may not fit would be some of the older IBM KBs (like the ones on the Displaywriter). -Ali From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Dec 22 02:01:51 2020 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 09:01:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: RL02 Tracking In-Reply-To: <91bim8vyo2q.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> References: <91bim8vyo2q.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Dec 2020, Aaron Jackson wrote: > The status currently is that the heads will load, and the ready lamp > flashes as the heads wobble back and forth very slightly, trying to lock > onto the outer servo guard band. Probing TP2 of the read/write module, I > can see the S1 servo burst flash (roughly in time with the ready > lamp). If I disconnect power to the servo motor, I can manually move the > head onto the outer guard band (less than a mm away) and monitoring the > position signal (TP15 on the drive logic module) shows this to be close > to 0. So, I'm very confused. I've had almost the identical problem with a RL02 drive from a friend. It would start and load the heads, but the ready light would flicker or not even come on. After a measuring session I discovered that if I manually select the other head, everything would be fine. And if I disabled the servo motor I could manually lock onto the track on side 0, but then side 1 was out of alignment. So the alignment between the two heads was wrong and I had then aligned one of the heads so that the two would lock onto their corresponding track. The drive works fine since then. Christian From poc at pocnet.net Tue Dec 22 02:24:26 2020 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 09:24:26 +0100 Subject: Keyboard storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0720430A-E143-4BD3-84F9-512E6B3F9B39@pocnet.net> Hello Alan, Am 22.12.2020 um 07:17 schrieb Alan Perry via cctalk : > I have a bunch of Sun keyboards that I need to store more efficiently and don't want to risk damaging by stacking on top of each other. They are Type 4s, 5s, and 6s (without the wrist rest), maybe 10 in total. Anyone here know of a box or boxes that would work well for this? I?m storing keyboards openly in a shelf, vertical, standing on the small edge. I alternate them front-back so the slope of the keys array is compensating itself. Aside from some dust, the packing density is really good. :wq! PoC From Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk Tue Dec 22 04:33:56 2020 From: Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 10:33:56 +0000 Subject: RL02 Tracking In-Reply-To: References: <91bim8vyo2q.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> Message-ID: <91bczz2yvsc.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> On 22 December 2020 at 08:01 GMT, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 21 Dec 2020, Aaron Jackson wrote: >> The status currently is that the heads will load, and the ready lamp >> flashes as the heads wobble back and forth very slightly, trying to lock >> onto the outer servo guard band. Probing TP2 of the read/write module, I >> can see the S1 servo burst flash (roughly in time with the ready >> lamp). If I disconnect power to the servo motor, I can manually move the >> head onto the outer guard band (less than a mm away) and monitoring the >> position signal (TP15 on the drive logic module) shows this to be close >> to 0. So, I'm very confused. > > I've had almost the identical problem with a RL02 drive from a friend. It > would start and load the heads, but the ready light would flicker or not > even come on. After a measuring session I discovered that if I manually > select the other head, everything would be fine. And if I disabled the > servo motor I could manually lock onto the track on side 0, but then side > 1 was out of alignment. So the alignment between the two heads was wrong > and I had then aligned one of the heads so that the two would lock onto > their corresponding track. The drive works fine since then. > > Christian That's very interesting to know. Thanks! I have already performed the head alignment and they looked well aligned when switching between the two heads, but I didn't have any luck getting it to lock onto the first track with the head select jumper in. I'll mess about with this some more, it is at least reassuring that someone elses drive has displayed similar behaviour. thanks Aaron This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender and delete the email and attachment. Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the University of Nottingham. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored where permitted by law. From Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk Tue Dec 22 07:38:25 2020 From: Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 13:38:25 +0000 Subject: RL02 Tracking In-Reply-To: <91bczz2yvsc.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> References: <91bim8vyo2q.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> <91bczz2yvsc.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> Message-ID: <91bblemyn8v.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> On 22 December 2020 at 10:33 GMT, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > On 22 December 2020 at 08:01 GMT, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > >> On Mon, 21 Dec 2020, Aaron Jackson wrote: >>> The status currently is that the heads will load, and the ready lamp >>> flashes as the heads wobble back and forth very slightly, trying to lock >>> onto the outer servo guard band. Probing TP2 of the read/write module, I >>> can see the S1 servo burst flash (roughly in time with the ready >>> lamp). If I disconnect power to the servo motor, I can manually move the >>> head onto the outer guard band (less than a mm away) and monitoring the >>> position signal (TP15 on the drive logic module) shows this to be close >>> to 0. So, I'm very confused. >> >> I've had almost the identical problem with a RL02 drive from a friend. It >> would start and load the heads, but the ready light would flicker or not >> even come on. After a measuring session I discovered that if I manually >> select the other head, everything would be fine. And if I disabled the >> servo motor I could manually lock onto the track on side 0, but then side >> 1 was out of alignment. So the alignment between the two heads was wrong >> and I had then aligned one of the heads so that the two would lock onto >> their corresponding track. The drive works fine since then. >> > > That's very interesting to know. Thanks! I have already performed the > head alignment and they looked well aligned when switching between the > two heads, but I didn't have any luck getting it to lock onto the first > track with the head select jumper in. I'll mess about with this some > more, it is at least reassuring that someone elses drive has displayed > similar behaviour. > Alright been playing around with that for an hour or so. I think I'm beginning to understand what has happened. The ready lamp flashes not when the servo burst is visible, but when the heads are just before it. Why? Well, I probably set the gain too high on the read/write module. ... Why did I set the gain too high? Probably both my cartridges are weak and to compensate for this, I set the read/write module's amplitude too high during the "Read Signal Amplitude Adjustment" in Chapter 3 of the tech manual. I think having this amplitude too high amplifies the noise too much, which makes the drive believe it's found the first track, but is struggling to read the servo bursts because they're not actually there there, hence the slight head oscillation. Does this sound like a reasonable theory? If so, I suppose now might be a reasonable time to ask the list if anyone in the UK has a known *good* cartridge which they'd mind selling me for a sensible price? I know there aren't too many of them floating about the UK these days. Thanks everyone who has given me some pointers so far Aaron This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender and delete the email and attachment. Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the University of Nottingham. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored where permitted by law. From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Dec 22 08:11:29 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 06:11:29 -0800 Subject: Keyboard storage In-Reply-To: <0720430A-E143-4BD3-84F9-512E6B3F9B39@pocnet.net> References: <0720430A-E143-4BD3-84F9-512E6B3F9B39@pocnet.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 22, 2020, at 00:51, Patrik Schindler via cctalk wrote: > > ?Hello Alan, > >> Am 22.12.2020 um 07:17 schrieb Alan Perry via cctalk : >> >> I have a bunch of Sun keyboards that I need to store more efficiently and don't want to risk damaging by stacking on top of each other. They are Type 4s, 5s, and 6s (without the wrist rest), maybe 10 in total. Anyone here know of a box or boxes that would work well for this? > > I?m storing keyboards openly in a shelf, vertical, standing on the small edge. I alternate them front-back so the slope of the keys array is compensating itself. Aside from some dust, the packing density is really good. Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, since I live on a gravel road, dust is a huge problem here, so I need an enclosed solution. alan From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 08:48:42 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 09:48:42 -0500 Subject: Keyboard storage In-Reply-To: References: <0720430A-E143-4BD3-84F9-512E6B3F9B39@pocnet.net> Message-ID: ULINE sells a box (you can buy a qty of 1-5-20-etc that fits the dimensions of most any keyboard and would be a good long-term storage solution. I have bought these and they stack well. Bill On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 9:11 AM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > On Dec 22, 2020, at 00:51, Patrik Schindler via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ?Hello Alan, > > > >> Am 22.12.2020 um 07:17 schrieb Alan Perry via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > >> > >> I have a bunch of Sun keyboards that I need to store more efficiently > and don't want to risk damaging by stacking on top of each other. They are > Type 4s, 5s, and 6s (without the wrist rest), maybe 10 in total. Anyone > here know of a box or boxes that would work well for this? > > > > I?m storing keyboards openly in a shelf, vertical, standing on the small > edge. I alternate them front-back so the slope of the keys array is > compensating itself. Aside from some dust, the packing density is really > good. > > Thanks for the suggestion. > > Unfortunately, since I live on a gravel road, dust is a huge problem here, > so I need an enclosed solution. > > alan > > From lists at y42.org Tue Dec 22 09:53:13 2020 From: lists at y42.org (Why 42? The lists account.) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 16:53:13 +0100 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> References: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 05:56:40PM -0500, Chris Zach via cctech wrote: > This was a long day. Went over to the house and started working on getting > the Perqs out of the basement. I've been moving smaller stuff to make room > and it was time. I can see that it was a long day - but you are doing good work! Keep it up! Whereabouts is all this heavy lifting taking place, in the US? I wouldn't have expected to see ICL Perqs so far from home ... The brown one is the original Perq 1, as you now know. Since you have take out the hard disk (14 inch Shugart, as I recall) be aware that it should be stored upright. The platters had a tendency to warp under their own weight when stored sideways. If it would be useful, when the time comes, I have a couple of ring binders here containing some ICL documentation from 1984-86. E.g. my Perq Specialist Training Notes and a set of Customer Service Information Sheets - for example see listing here: http://paste.c-net.org/RocketsSymbols These have some part numbers and tips which might perhaps be useful. I don't have a Perq, but I would love to get copies of any software that could be retrieved from these systems (Still looking forward to playing Pool (i.e. the game, with the balls) by Nigel Bond (?). Cheers, Robb. From lists at y42.org Tue Dec 22 09:53:13 2020 From: lists at y42.org (Why 42? The lists account.) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 16:53:13 +0100 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> References: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 05:56:40PM -0500, Chris Zach via cctech wrote: > This was a long day. Went over to the house and started working on getting > the Perqs out of the basement. I've been moving smaller stuff to make room > and it was time. I can see that it was a long day - but you are doing good work! Keep it up! Whereabouts is all this heavy lifting taking place, in the US? I wouldn't have expected to see ICL Perqs so far from home ... The brown one is the original Perq 1, as you now know. Since you have take out the hard disk (14 inch Shugart, as I recall) be aware that it should be stored upright. The platters had a tendency to warp under their own weight when stored sideways. If it would be useful, when the time comes, I have a couple of ring binders here containing some ICL documentation from 1984-86. E.g. my Perq Specialist Training Notes and a set of Customer Service Information Sheets - for example see listing here: http://paste.c-net.org/RocketsSymbols These have some part numbers and tips which might perhaps be useful. I don't have a Perq, but I would love to get copies of any software that could be retrieved from these systems (Still looking forward to playing Pool (i.e. the game, with the balls) by Nigel Bond (?). Cheers, Robb. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 10:00:54 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 16:00:54 +0000 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: References: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 3:53 PM Why 42? The lists account. via cctalk wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 05:56:40PM -0500, Chris Zach via cctech wrote: > > This was a long day. Went over to the house and started working on getting > > the Perqs out of the basement. I've been moving smaller stuff to make room > > and it was time. > > I can see that it was a long day - but you are doing good work! Keep it > up! > > Whereabouts is all this heavy lifting taking place, in the US? I wouldn't > have expected to see ICL Perqs so far from home ... Err, the PERQ was originally designed/built by 3 Rivers Computer Corp in the States. I think some parts of the 2T1 (the one with the 8" Micropolis hard drive), in particular the hard disk interface board and the portrait monitor (based on a Kent Modular Electronics chassis) were from ICL, but the CPU, memory. EIO etc all come from the States. Of course the AGW3300 is an ICLmachine but I feel that's a PERQ in name only -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 10:00:54 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 16:00:54 +0000 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: References: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 3:53 PM Why 42? The lists account. via cctalk wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 05:56:40PM -0500, Chris Zach via cctech wrote: > > This was a long day. Went over to the house and started working on getting > > the Perqs out of the basement. I've been moving smaller stuff to make room > > and it was time. > > I can see that it was a long day - but you are doing good work! Keep it > up! > > Whereabouts is all this heavy lifting taking place, in the US? I wouldn't > have expected to see ICL Perqs so far from home ... Err, the PERQ was originally designed/built by 3 Rivers Computer Corp in the States. I think some parts of the 2T1 (the one with the 8" Micropolis hard drive), in particular the hard disk interface board and the portrait monitor (based on a Kent Modular Electronics chassis) were from ICL, but the CPU, memory. EIO etc all come from the States. Of course the AGW3300 is an ICLmachine but I feel that's a PERQ in name only -tony From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Dec 22 10:28:54 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 11:28:54 -0500 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: References: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <499cffbc-024a-46d5-483c-fcdaee972827@alembic.crystel.com> > I can see that it was a long day - but you are doing good work! Keep it > up! > > Whereabouts is all this heavy lifting taking place, in the US? I wouldn't > have expected to see ICL Perqs so far from home ... They're here in the US: I think one of these came from Sparrows Point Beth Steel, I remember seeing one like it in my long since ex girlfriends' house in the 1980's. That brings back bad memories, but I think the juju has faded by now. > The brown one is the original Perq 1, as you now know. Since you have > take out the hard disk (14 inch Shugart, as I recall) be aware that it > should be stored upright. The platters had a tendency to warp under their > own weight when stored sideways. Got it. I didn't take the disk out, one is in a frame of a Perq 1 and the other was in a complete-ish P1 that I took the CPU card cage and power supply out to make it light enough to get up the steps. There are some pretty big rubber isolators holding the disk assembly to the frame and yes at the moment it's all stored vertical with the disks pointing up. > If it would be useful, when the time comes, I have a couple of ring > binders here containing some ICL documentation from 1984-86. E.g. my > Perq Specialist Training Notes and a set of Customer Service Information > Sheets - for example see listing here: > http://paste.c-net.org/RocketsSymbols > > These have some part numbers and tips which might perhaps be useful. > > I don't have a Perq, but I would love to get copies of any software that > could be retrieved from these systems (Still looking forward to playing > Pool (i.e. the game, with the balls) by Nigel Bond (?). Ok. They're safe now and I'll see what else I can retrieve before the end of year. My best chance might be to get the two Canon printers out of there; they are blocking access to other stuff and that would give me room to move more of the Sun junk out of the way to unearth these. Maybe I'll also get the Kaypros out of there as well to unearth that Compucom thing. C From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 22 11:12:50 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 09:12:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Keyboard storage In-Reply-To: <344823443.3332763.1608623283660@mail.yahoo.com> References: <344823443.3332763.1608623283660.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <344823443.3332763.1608623283660@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Dec 2020, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Had a ibm orig pc key board shipped in large flat rate. Game size box.?? Alas was,dropped on. Ornery and torn some on box... I had to remount keyboard pc inside that had moved lo and neef nd one of the corner edge til tje kry bad snapped off...?????? that particular Clicky keyb I ad is extremely heavy for first ever ibm pc.?????? Be ware?? pack really well...... > Help anyone got parts for the tilter > ...thing?? for these keyboards???? > ...ed sharpe May we suggest that you switch temporarily to a working keyboard (or "keyb" if you prefer) until you can repair the shipping damage. What is "lo and neef nd"? "til tje kry bad"? It must be hard on you to have to proofread and fix all of the errors that it creates. From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Dec 22 11:49:03 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 17:49:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Keyboard storage References: <1633082519.3521949.1608659343658.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1633082519.3521949.1608659343658@mail.yahoo.com> Let's try this... Had a ibm orig pc key board shipped in large flat rate Game size box.? Alas it was dropped on the corner and torn somewhat. I had to remount keyboard pc inside the case that had moved? and hardest part was getting ground wire back Worse part was one of the corner edge flip up things that keeps key at an angle bad snapped off.???? Museum needs parts to fix this? as it is nice to display keyboard at an angle Alas? that particular Clicky keyboard is extremely heavy ... this is the one for first ever ibm pc.?? Corner drop shock is a killer. ? Beware? pack these early keyboards really well... OK does anyone have parts for the little mechanism on the end that keeps keyboard tilted at an angle? .Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC museum project On Tuesday, December 22, 2020 Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Tue, 22 Dec 2020, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Had a ibm orig pc key board shipped in large flat rate. Game size box.? Alas was,dropped on. Ornery and torn some on box... I had to remount keyboard pc inside that had moved lo and neef nd one of the corner edge til tje kry bad snapped off...??? that particular Clicky keyb I ad is extremely heavy for first ever ibm pc.??? Be ware? pack really well...... > Help anyone got parts for the tilter > ...thing? for these keyboards???? > ...ed sharpe May we suggest that you switch temporarily to a working keyboard (or "keyb" if you prefer) until you can repair the shipping damage. What is "lo and neef nd"? "til tje kry bad"? It must be hard on you to have to proofread and fix all of the errors that it creates. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 22 11:57:32 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 09:57:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Keyboard storage In-Reply-To: <1633082519.3521949.1608659343658@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1633082519.3521949.1608659343658.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1633082519.3521949.1608659343658@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ed, that was excellent! We appreciate the extra effort. Alas, you are 15 years too late for my extra 5150 keyboard parts. They didn't make it through the third move (Ben Franklin commented how that was as disruptive as a fire) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Tue, 22 Dec 2020, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Let's try this... > > Had a ibm orig pc key board shipped in large flat rate Game size box.? > > Alas it was dropped on the corner and torn somewhat. > > I had to remount keyboard pc inside the case that had moved? and hardest part was getting ground wire back > > Worse part was one of the corner edge flip up things that keeps key at an angle bad snapped off.???? Museum needs parts to fix this? as it is nice to display keyboard at an angle > > Alas? that particular Clicky keyboard is extremely heavy ... this is the one for first ever ibm pc.?? Corner drop shock is a killer. > > ? Beware? pack these early keyboards really well... > > OK does anyone have parts for the little mechanism on the end that keeps keyboard tilted at an angle? > > > .Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC museum project > On Tuesday, December 22, 2020 Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 22 Dec 2020, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> Had a ibm orig pc key board shipped in large flat rate. Game size box.? Alas was,dropped on. Ornery and torn some on box... I had to remount keyboard pc inside that had moved lo and neef nd one of the corner edge til tje kry bad snapped off...??? that particular Clicky keyb I ad is extremely heavy for first ever ibm pc.??? Be ware? pack really well...... >> Help anyone got parts for the tilter >> ...thing? for these keyboards???? >> ...ed sharpe > > May we suggest that you switch temporarily to a working keyboard (or > "keyb" if you prefer) until you can repair the shipping damage. > What is "lo and neef nd"? > "til tje kry bad"? > It must be hard on you to have to proofread and fix all of the errors that > it creates. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 22 12:18:25 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 10:18:25 -0800 Subject: Keyboard storage In-Reply-To: <1633082519.3521949.1608659343658@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1633082519.3521949.1608659343658.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1633082519.3521949.1608659343658@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2b2ef021-cd54-d02f-a3a7-b56674a09af6@sydex.com> On 12/22/20 9:49 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Let's try this... > > Had a ibm orig pc key board shipped in large flat rate Game size box.? > > Alas it was dropped on the corner and torn somewhat. > > I had to remount keyboard pc inside the case that had moved? and hardest part was getting ground wire back > > Worse part was one of the corner edge flip up things that keeps key at an angle bad snapped off.???? Museum needs parts to fix this? as it is nice to display keyboard at an angle > > Alas? that particular Clicky keyboard is extremely heavy ... this is the one for first ever ibm pc.?? Corner drop shock is a killer. > > ? Beware? pack these early keyboards really well... > > OK does anyone have parts for the little mechanism on the end that keeps keyboard tilted at an angle? Try the folks at https://www.clickykeyboards.com/--they tend to hoard a lot of old parts and are quite reasonable about selling them. --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Dec 22 13:23:01 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 19:23:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Keyboard storage References: <1576904085.3558802.1608664981415.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1576904085.3558802.1608664981415@mail.yahoo.com> Hopefully someone will have some.... The blasted one is on the left? side of the keyboard. Having a spare for the right side? probably not a bad idea too... We were missing keyboards? and got this like new one? gifted to us.? It was heartbreaking to see it damaged in shipping. We have a couple early 5150 umits with? expansion chassis.? Although only one of the? monster interconnect cables between the? pc and expansion chassis. Looking for posters lapel pins? and other display art to fill in? open areas... Any other ideas wekcome! Ed# On Tuesday, December 22, 2020 Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Ed, that was excellent!? We appreciate the extra effort. Alas, you are 15 years too late for my extra 5150 keyboard parts.? They didn't make it through the third move (Ben Franklin commented how that was as disruptive as a fire) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred? ? ??? ??? cisin at xenosoft.com On Tue, 22 Dec 2020, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Let's try this... > > Had a ibm orig pc key board shipped in large flat rate Game size box.? > > Alas it was dropped on the corner and torn somewhat. > > I had to remount keyboard pc inside the case that had moved? and hardest part was getting ground wire back > > Worse part was one of the corner edge flip up things that keeps key at an angle bad snapped off.???? Museum needs parts to fix this? as it is nice to display keyboard at an angle > > Alas? that particular Clicky keyboard is extremely heavy ... this is the one for first ever ibm pc.?? Corner drop shock is a killer. > > ? Beware? pack these early keyboards really well... > > OK does anyone have parts for the little mechanism on the end that keeps keyboard tilted at an angle? > > > .Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC museum project > On Tuesday, December 22, 2020 Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 22 Dec 2020, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> Had a ibm orig pc key board shipped in large flat rate. Game size box.? Alas was,dropped on. Ornery and torn some on box... I had to remount keyboard pc inside that had moved lo and neef nd one of the corner edge til tje kry bad snapped off...??? that particular Clicky keyb I ad is extremely heavy for first ever ibm pc.??? Be ware? pack really well...... >> Help anyone got parts for the tilter >> ...thing? for these keyboards???? >> ...ed sharpe > > May we suggest that you switch temporarily to a working keyboard (or > "keyb" if you prefer) until you can repair the shipping damage. > What is "lo and neef nd"? > "til tje kry bad"? > It must be hard on you to have to proofread and fix all of the errors that > it creates. From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 22 16:13:00 2020 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 14:13:00 -0800 Subject: Wordperfect 6.0 for DOS References: Message-ID: Relisted Wordperfect 6.0 for DOS on EBay. Item number 224289791291. Van Snyder van.snyder at sbcglobal.net From shadoooo at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 16:17:10 2020 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 23:17:10 +0100 Subject: RL02 Tracking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The ready lamp flashes not when the servo burst is >visible, but when the heads are just before it. > Why? Well, I probably set the gain too high on the read/write module. Hello, I'm sure you read the manual, however I add some explanation to be sure. The best head position is not where a servo track is at maximum amplitude (head is exactly centered to a servo track), but where you read two servo tracks with the same amplitude (so head is exactly between two servo tracks, in middle position). Comparative measurement of two servo tracks allow the servo control to understand the position of the head in respect to data track. If the best position for data track is not where servo have same amplitude probably the head is misaligned or the spring support of the head bent / deformed. To analyze head circuits you need a good oscilloscope, you should be able to see burst of servo tracks and data tracks too, with two channels you can understand if analog to digital threshold / pulses signal conversions do work as expected. Time ago I fixed an RL02 having a malfunctioning head amplifier circuit. The gain was too low. When I increased it rotating variable resistor, the circuit begun to ring (barely auto-oscillate), so was nearly unstable. Data and servo signals were corrupted, but this was visible only zooming on oscilloscope after careful trigger alignment. I don't remember exactly what I did, but some capacitors needed replacement, then I tuned head gain while loading a platter to the best position for operation, maybe slightly lower than manual recommendations. Then it worked perfectly. Andrea From Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk Tue Dec 22 16:37:39 2020 From: Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 22:37:39 +0000 Subject: RL02 Tracking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91ba6u5zcul.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> On 22 December 2020 at 22:17 GMT, shadoooo via cctalk wrote: >> The ready lamp flashes not when the servo burst is >visible, but when the > heads are just before it. >> Why? Well, I probably set the gain too high on the read/write module. > > Hello, > I'm sure you read the manual, however I add some explanation to be sure. > The best head position is not where a servo track is at maximum amplitude > (head is exactly centered to a servo track), but where you read two servo > tracks with the same amplitude (so head is exactly between two servo > tracks, in middle position). > Comparative measurement of two servo tracks allow the servo control to > understand the position of the head in respect to data track. > If the best position for data track is not where servo have same amplitude > probably the head is misaligned or the spring support of the head bent / > deformed. > To analyze head circuits you need a good oscilloscope, you should be able > to see burst of servo tracks and data tracks too, with two channels you can > understand if analog to digital threshold / pulses signal conversions do > work as expected. > Time ago I fixed an RL02 having a malfunctioning head amplifier circuit. > The gain was too low. When I increased it rotating variable resistor, the > circuit begun to ring (barely auto-oscillate), so was nearly unstable. Data > and servo signals were corrupted, but this was visible only zooming on > oscilloscope after careful trigger alignment. > I don't remember exactly what I did, but some capacitors needed > replacement, then I tuned head gain while loading a platter to the best > position for operation, maybe slightly lower than manual recommendations. > Then it worked perfectly. > > Andrea Hi Andrea, Thanks for this. My understanding is that the S1 and S2 servo bursts are passed through a comparator and then integrated. When the head is directly over the target track, S1 (becomes E1 after integration) is a perfect saw tooth, while E2 'saw tooths' away from 0V. After performing the amplitude adjustment, the potentiometer was very close to max, and I was getting around 650mV from the cartridge, but the noise floor was quite high. The manual also says that the outer guard track should not have an amplitude greater than 2.5V. Presumably the amplitude on the platter is higher the further out the track is, perhaps due to the amount of space available given 40 sectors per track. With this amplitude set as mentioned, loading the cartridge results in this head unpredictable oscillating behaviour, but as I mentioned, the ready light only comes on briefly, and only when the heads are before the outer guard. Basically, as far as they could be off the platter before being lifted by the ramp. Reducing the amplitude slightly prevents this oscillating behaviour, but the ready lamp does not come on at all. Increasing it to the very max causes very extreme oscillation, sometimes aggressively unloading the heads. I happen to have three of the read/write modules, and they all exhibit this behaviour. Not to say that caps don't need to be changed, but it seems unlikely that all of them would need this. I have a fairly decent scope and have been able to do some very nice captures of the servo bursts. They are not perfectly sinusoidal but I think close enough given the age of the heads. I'll go through the caps at some point anyway to double check. Looking at the schematic I'm guessing they are either ceramic or tants. thanks again, Aaron This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender and delete the email and attachment. Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the University of Nottingham. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored where permitted by law. From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Dec 22 18:12:54 2020 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 16:12:54 -0800 Subject: DEC H765 line interference caps Message-ID: Hi all, I?m just starting in on a PDP-11/34 for a friend (happy holidays!) I currently have the H765 power supply torn down for cleaning, inspection, and testing as a first step. While I have the transformer out on the bench, I?m wondering about the line interference supression caps on the ?CAP MOV? board attached to the transformer. These are CDE 220 VAC .1 MFD, across the line, in parallel with some metal oxide varistors. Drawing on collective experience here: would I be well advised to go ahead and swap these out for some modern X2 safety caps while I have the supply apart? Or are these in the ?oh those are rock solid; I wouldn?t touch em unless they were faulted? category? cheers! ?FritzM. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Dec 22 21:44:44 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 22:44:44 -0500 Subject: Compiling Fortran77 on the Pro: Where the heck are the library modules? Message-ID: <9b400d0b-94bb-8efd-6439-7b1c2ebdfa9f@alembic.crystel.com> So I'm working on compiling some programs on my Pro/380. 2.0 OS, Fortran77 compiler, Empire is the sample game. I got it to compile properly but when I try to link it the linker/tkb/pab fails with a bunch of undeclared references. Some of them are in the F77FCS.OLB library files on my pdp11/83 (M+ 4.6) like $CLOS, ISF$, $OSF, and $OPEN, but others like $EOLST, IOAB$, IOAI$, TT$EFN, and others are missing as well. Did DEC really jerk people around so badly by selling the FCS or RMS libraries as a separate installed product? I see some reference to RMSLIB.OLB but it's not on this system. Weird. CZ From syseng at gfsys.co.uk Tue Dec 22 14:24:19 2020 From: syseng at gfsys.co.uk (Chris Quayle) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 20:24:19 +0000 Subject: RL02 Tracking (Aaron Jackson) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5FE255F3.5090706@gfsys.co.uk> On 12/22/20 18:00, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Send cctech mailing list submissions to > cctech at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctech-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctech-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. RL02 Tracking (Aaron Jackson) > 2. Re: RL02 Tracking (Aaron Jackson) > 3. Re: RL02 Tracking (Jon Elson) > 4. Re: RL02 Tracking (Josh Dersch) > 5. Re: RL02 Tracking (Aaron Jackson) > 6. Re: tty and video displays (Jules Richardson) > 7. Re: Keyboard storage (Guy Sotomayor) > 8. Wordperfect 6.0 for DOS (Van Snyder) > 9. Re: RL02 Tracking (Noel Chiappa) > 10. Keyboard storage (Alan Perry) > 11. Re: Keyboard storage (Warner Losh) > 12. RE: Keyboard storage (Ali) > 13. Re: Keyboard storage (Alan Perry) > 14. RE: Keyboard storage (Ali) > 15. Re: Keyboard storage (Alan Perry) > 16. Re: Keyboard storage (Guy Sotomayor) > 17. RE: Keyboard storage (ED SHARPE) > 18. Re: RL02 Tracking (Christian Corti) > 19. Re: Keyboard storage (Patrik Schindler) > 20. Re: RL02 Tracking (Aaron Jackson) > 21. Re: RL02 Tracking (Aaron Jackson) > 22. Re: Keyboard storage (Alan Perry) > 23. Re: Keyboard storage (Bill Degnan) > 24. Re: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. (Why 42? The lists account.) > 25. Re: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. (Why 42? The lists account.) > 26. Re: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. (Tony Duell) > 27. Re: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. (Tony Duell) > 28. Re: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. (Chris Zach) > 29. RE: Keyboard storage (Fred Cisin) > 30. RE: Keyboard storage (ED SHARPE) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 19:08:14 +0000 > From: Aaron Jackson > To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Subject: RL02 Tracking > Message-ID:<91bim8vyo2q.fsf at mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi everyone > > I've posted a few times over the years about RL02 drives and my > difficulty getting them working (no luck so far!). I've spent the past > few days working on one of them and have made some progress. > > The status currently is that the heads will load, and the ready lamp > flashes as the heads wobble back and forth very slightly, trying to lock > onto the outer servo guard band. Probing TP2 of the read/write module, I > can see the S1 servo burst flash (roughly in time with the ready > lamp). If I disconnect power to the servo motor, I can manually move the > head onto the outer guard band (less than a mm away) and monitoring the > position signal (TP15 on the drive logic module) shows this to be close > to 0. So, I'm very confused. > > I've worked through chapter 3 multiple times... > > - voltage checks - all good > - sector transducer output check - all good > - sector pulse timing check - all good > - read signal amplitude check and adjustment - all good > - positioner radial alignment - required some tweeking but is good now > - head alignment - looks good to me > - spindle runout check - a little noisy but within spec > - position signal gain check - looked ok > - tachometer ac noise pickup check - this one didnt look so good > > Supposedly if the main drive motor is bad it will emit noise and cause > the tachometer (just a coil of wire on the head carriage) to produce > spikes. Mine does look quite noisy but I'm not sure what's causing it. I > would expect that if it was picking up noise, I'd be able to detect this > with my oscilloscope probe by putting it close to the motor, but I > can't. Any ideas? > > Also, thanks to pjustice on irc who suggested checking the spindle > grounding button. Mine is very worn out but I've been able to apply some > pressure to it from the under side which reduces the resistance of the > spindle to ground, from 400 ohm to 0 ohm. This didn't make the situation > any better though. > > Still, the situation over all is much better now than it was last time I > looked at the drive (over two years ago now I think). Previously the > heads would attempt to load and then the fault lamp would come on > immediately. At least now it's trying to lock onto a track. I have the > same results with two cartridges (which is all I have!). > > If anyone has any ideas I'd love to hear them! > > Aaron Aaron, One thing I would check is the motor bearings. What happens on electro mechanical assemblies left in store for years is that ball bearing grease lube dries out and hardens, resulting in lumpy rotation and increased friction that can be detected by rotating the spindle by hand. RLxx series drives were very reliable typically, but the head movement assy is pretty cheap and cheerful. Converting spindle to linear movement, minimum parts count, dc brush brush motor, means that all the bits need to be smooth in operation, with no stiction anywhere in it's travel. I would take the motor out and if it can't be stripped to clean the bearings, use a dab of light clock oil to relube. Also, check the brushes and clean / polish the commutator. Any other ball bearings in the path, same process. DC brush motors can be a nightmare for that sort of precision positioning application... Chris From Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk Tue Dec 22 16:40:03 2020 From: Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 22:40:03 +0000 Subject: RL02 Tracking (Aaron Jackson) In-Reply-To: <5FE255F3.5090706@gfsys.co.uk> References: <5FE255F3.5090706@gfsys.co.uk> Message-ID: <91b8s9pzcql.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> > > Aaron, > > One thing I would check is the motor bearings. What happens on electro > mechanical assemblies left in store for years is that ball bearing > grease lube dries out and hardens, resulting in lumpy rotation and > increased friction that can be detected by rotating the spindle by > hand. RLxx series drives were very reliable typically, but the head > movement assy is pretty cheap and cheerful. Converting spindle to > linear movement, minimum parts count, dc brush brush motor, means that > all the bits need to be smooth in operation, with no stiction anywhere > in it's travel. > > I would take the motor out and if it can't be stripped to clean the > bearings, use a dab of light clock oil to relube. Also, check the > brushes and clean / polish the commutator. Any other ball bearings > in the path, same process. DC brush motors can be a nightmare for > that sort of precision positioning application... > > Chris Thanks Chris, I will look into trying to measure the wobble (if there is any present) of the spindle. Might be a fun project to strip this down anyway and see what's going on. Hopefully not too much more complicated than a bicycle but we'll see... Aaron This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender and delete the email and attachment. Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the University of Nottingham. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored where permitted by law. From robinson at tuberadio.com Tue Dec 22 17:41:22 2020 From: robinson at tuberadio.com (robinson at tuberadio.com) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 23:41:22 -0000 Subject: Keyboard storage (Alan Perry) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26312267a3989e422e2f6d88a950d571.squirrel@ringtail.possums.net.au> Hi Alan, I go to my local shopping center. The fish shop there, has the fish delivered in white foam boxes. Some are long with lids. I go dumpster diving and collect them. They are suitable for keyboards, depends on the length of the keyboard, and the length of the fish. Regards Ray > On Mon, 2020-12-21 at 22:17 -0800, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> I have a bunch of Sun keyboards that I need to store more >> efficiently >> and don't want to risk damaging by stacking on top of each other. >> They >> are Type 4s, 5s, and 6s (without the wrist rest), maybe 10 in total. >> Anyone here know of a box or boxes that would work well for this? >> >> alan From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Dec 22 18:33:59 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 19:33:59 -0500 Subject: Keyboard storage (Alan Perry) In-Reply-To: <26312267a3989e422e2f6d88a950d571.squirrel@ringtail.possums.net.au> References: <26312267a3989e422e2f6d88a950d571.squirrel@ringtail.possums.net.au> Message-ID: <2FCA590F-5C6C-4983-ABAC-76A3B40D5FA9@comcast.net> > On Dec 22, 2020, at 6:41 PM, Raymond Robinson via cctech wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > I go to my local shopping center. > The fish shop there, has the fish delivered in white foam boxes. > Some are long with lids. > I go dumpster diving and collect them. > They are suitable for keyboards, > depends on the length of the keyboard, > and the length of the fish. > > Regards > Ray Nice, but watch out for static electricity. paul From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Dec 23 03:13:49 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 01:13:49 -0800 Subject: Compiling Fortran77 on the Pro: Where the heck are the library modules? In-Reply-To: <9b400d0b-94bb-8efd-6439-7b1c2ebdfa9f@alembic.crystel.com> References: <9b400d0b-94bb-8efd-6439-7b1c2ebdfa9f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <0040b602-f8bf-ac21-b18a-2d8ae72d7434@jwsss.com> On 12/22/2020 7:44 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > > Did DEC really jerk people around so badly by selling the FCS or RMS > libraries as a separate installed product? Can't answer for DEC, but SCO certainly had things broken up into huge numbers of parts, some that made no sense had separate licenses. When you were loading SCO you'd get 30 or 40 floppies for a full system. I suspect that other systems loaded from floppies, which were even smaller than the ones SCO was distributed on might have had even more, and you might not have them all.? Just speculating though. thanks Jim From tomas at basun.net Wed Dec 23 07:09:24 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 14:09:24 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail Router for NT Message-ID: <877dp87jp7.wl-tomas@basun.net> Hi all, I'm using a HP 200LX to connect to a cc:Mail installation, with a null modem cable. It has worked better before, but now I don't seem to be able to connect at all. This is the output from the router, when trying to connect from the 200LX: | C:\CCMAIL\Router>C:\CCMAIL\Router\NTROUTER.EXE C:\CCDATA MODEM/PBX COM1 DIAGNOSTICS/F LOG/C:\CCMAIL\Router\ROUTER.LOG | cc:Mail NT ROUTER Version 6.10.00.4 | Copyright (c) 1986, 1997 by cc:Mail, Inc. [...] | Press Esc to terminate cc:Mail ROUTER program. | Waiting to receive messages... | 23/12/20 13:53:33 Answering call... 2 8 3a 74 68 8 2a 55 22 52 23 | 7d 18 80 from ~????`???f???????? ?`. Data connection not requested. | 23/12/20 13:53:49 Ending connection. | Waiting to receive messages... | 23/12/20 13:53:55 Answering call... 2 8 3a 74 68 8 2a 55 22 52 23 | 7d 18 Data connection lost. | 23/12/20 13:54:36 Ending connection. | Waiting to receive messages... The log files are empty. There are no other error messages anywhere that I can see. Anybody recognises anything? Any ideas about things I can try? Here is the modem file: | [attributes] | MODELS=Null | NULL MODEM=1 | [commands] And another thing is that I only seem to be able to get a response at 1200 baud (the router default) by not specifying a speed when starting the router. If I add the speed to the command line (the first line above), any speed, (and the corresponding setting on the Palmtop) then there is no connection at all. It has worked better earlier. I managed to connect at 9600, but that was a different PC. I am not aware of having changed anything relevant on either PC or Palmtop. Any help appreciated. /Tomas From lists at y42.org Wed Dec 23 06:28:33 2020 From: lists at y42.org (Why 42? The lists account.) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 13:28:33 +0100 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: <499cffbc-024a-46d5-483c-fcdaee972827@alembic.crystel.com> References: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> <499cffbc-024a-46d5-483c-fcdaee972827@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 11:28:54AM -0500, Chris Zach via cctech wrote: > ... > Ok. They're safe now and I'll see what else I can retrieve before the end of > year. That would be very cool. Good luck! > ... that would give me room to move more of the Sun junk out of the way > to unearth these. Careful there buddy, I was at Sun for 9 years :-) Cheers, Robb. From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 13:26:44 2020 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 14:26:44 -0500 Subject: Keyboard storage (Alan Perry) In-Reply-To: <2FCA590F-5C6C-4983-ABAC-76A3B40D5FA9@comcast.net> References: <26312267a3989e422e2f6d88a950d571.squirrel@ringtail.possums.net.au> <2FCA590F-5C6C-4983-ABAC-76A3B40D5FA9@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 2:47 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Dec 22, 2020, at 6:41 PM, Raymond Robinson via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Hi Alan, > > > > I go to my local shopping center. > > The fish shop there, has the fish delivered in white foam boxes. > > Some are long with lids. > > I go dumpster diving and collect them. > > They are suitable for keyboards, > > depends on the length of the keyboard, > > and the length of the fish. > > > > Regards > > Ray > > Nice, but watch out for static electricity. > I'd also be wary of being phished when using materials of unknown provenance. > > paul > > From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 13:26:44 2020 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 14:26:44 -0500 Subject: Keyboard storage (Alan Perry) In-Reply-To: <2FCA590F-5C6C-4983-ABAC-76A3B40D5FA9@comcast.net> References: <26312267a3989e422e2f6d88a950d571.squirrel@ringtail.possums.net.au> <2FCA590F-5C6C-4983-ABAC-76A3B40D5FA9@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 2:47 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Dec 22, 2020, at 6:41 PM, Raymond Robinson via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Hi Alan, > > > > I go to my local shopping center. > > The fish shop there, has the fish delivered in white foam boxes. > > Some are long with lids. > > I go dumpster diving and collect them. > > They are suitable for keyboards, > > depends on the length of the keyboard, > > and the length of the fish. > > > > Regards > > Ray > > Nice, but watch out for static electricity. > I'd also be wary of being phished when using materials of unknown provenance. > > paul > > From classiccmp at crash.com Thu Dec 24 15:33:11 2020 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 13:33:11 -0800 Subject: Keyboard storage In-Reply-To: <0720430A-E143-4BD3-84F9-512E6B3F9B39@pocnet.net> References: <0720430A-E143-4BD3-84F9-512E6B3F9B39@pocnet.net> Message-ID: On 12/22/20 12:24 AM, Patrik Schindler via cctalk wrote: > > I?m storing keyboards openly in a shelf, vertical, standing on the small edge. I alternate them front-back so the slope of the keys array is compensating itself. Aside from some dust, the packing density is really good. And on 12/22/20 6:11 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > Unfortunately, since I live on a gravel road, dust is a huge problem here, so I need an enclosed solution. "Dishpack" boxes from movers or moving supply stores are one enclosed option, if you store the keyboards on-end as Patrik described. Or try using plastic storage bins with lids from the local Target/Walmart-equivalent. Each costs anywhere from $5-12 depending on size, sturdiness, and the occasional sale. Within the tub/bin the keyboards are arranged on the long edge, rather than flat. If the bin is tall enough, some cardboard allows for a second layer. --S. From deramp5113 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 25 10:00:13 2020 From: deramp5113 at yahoo.com (Mike Douglas) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 10:00:13 -0600 Subject: michael Holley? References: <5A3B5C56-84AB-42C6-8F13-5F183541B84A.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5A3B5C56-84AB-42C6-8F13-5F183541B84A@yahoo.com> ...and SWTPC.ORG is gone again. Mike From doug at doughq.com Fri Dec 25 19:49:47 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2020 12:49:47 +1100 Subject: michael Holley? In-Reply-To: <5A3B5C56-84AB-42C6-8F13-5F183541B84A@yahoo.com> References: <5A3B5C56-84AB-42C6-8F13-5F183541B84A.ref@yahoo.com> <5A3B5C56-84AB-42C6-8F13-5F183541B84A@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oh no. I wonder what it was this time. Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 at 04:29, Mike Douglas via cctalk wrote: > ...and SWTPC.ORG is gone again. > > Mike > From poc at pocnet.net Sat Dec 26 06:03:28 2020 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2020 13:03:28 +0100 Subject: HP DDS3 DAT and DEC Tapes Message-ID: Hello Folks, I?m having fun time to erase used DDS tapes for reuse. I?ve been collecting those over years. Recently, I discovered that with DEC brand tapes, the drive reports the cartridges to be write protected, eventhough the slider is closed which means, they?re supposed to be writable. I suspect there is a software write protect flag on them. Any thoughs, hints, advices how to unlock these tapes for overwrite? :wq! PoC From kl at 2k.ca Sat Dec 26 06:37:59 2020 From: kl at 2k.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2020 13:37:59 +0100 Subject: HP DDS3 DAT and DEC Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Clean the optical sensor/push button? > On 26 Dec 2020, at 13:03, Patrik Schindler via cctalk wrote: > > Hello Folks, > > I?m having fun time to erase used DDS tapes for reuse. I?ve been collecting those over years. Recently, I discovered that with DEC brand tapes, the drive reports the cartridges to be write protected, eventhough the slider is closed which means, they?re supposed to be writable. I suspect there is a software write protect flag on them. > > Any thoughs, hints, advices how to unlock these tapes for overwrite? > > :wq! PoC > From poc at pocnet.net Sat Dec 26 06:42:27 2020 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2020 13:42:27 +0100 Subject: HP DDS3 DAT and DEC Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <203F5067-4176-493D-AD36-E1BE43D91A5F@pocnet.net> Hello Kevin, thanks for your suggestion. Am 26.12.2020 um 13:37 schrieb Kevin Lee : > Clean the optical sensor/push button? Allow me to repeat that this happens exclusively with DEC brand tapes. All five of them report ?read only? while all other brands (HP, Sony, Maxell, you name it) work. I?ve already erased around 100 DDS1 tapes. I can?t see differences in the cartridges? write protection locks, so the WP-switch is pushed the same all the time. :wq! PoC From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Dec 27 15:41:46 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 16:41:46 -0500 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? Message-ID: I have one, and if someone needs to to complete their collection I'd rather it goes there. If you just want to put it on Ebay pls don't bother as I can do that but if you really need one let me know. CZ From Gary at realtimecomp.com Sun Dec 27 16:07:43 2020 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 22:07:43 +0000 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? Message-ID: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8927F792D3F@SERVER.RealTime.local> Chris, I could use one. I have an h-11 system that has issues with the h-27 system. Please contact me off list. Gary Gary at realtimecomp.com -------- Original message -------- From: Chris Zach via cctalk Date: 12/27/20 4:42 PM (GMT-05:00) To: CCTalk mailing list Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? I have one, and if someone needs to to complete their collection I'd rather it goes there. If you just want to put it on Ebay pls don't bother as I can do that but if you really need one let me know. CZ From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Dec 27 16:12:21 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 17:12:21 -0500 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? In-Reply-To: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8927F792D3F@SERVER.RealTime.local> References: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8927F792D3F@SERVER.RealTime.local> Message-ID: <01ff0954-2f6e-afc4-5582-cac31d217d79@alembic.crystel.com> Hi Gary! Shoot, Eric (somecomputerguy) PMed me first, as he is also having trouble with his H27. However I'm sending it under the "Yours for shipping costs but if you get your system working you have to pass it on to another worthy soul." license. So you should get one from him once he's up and running. And you'll have to send it to someone else once you get yours up and running. These things travel forever like this. It is the way.... CZ On 12/27/2020 5:07 PM, Gary L. Messick wrote: > Chris, > I could use one.? I have an h-11 system that has issues with the h-27 > system. > Please contact me off list. > Gary > Gary at realtimecomp.com From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 27 17:02:24 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 23:02:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? References: <1216734702.4812266.1609110144480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1216734702.4812266.1609110144480@mail.yahoo.com> We have a heath h11 that could u se one at smecc museum.project...Chris.? Thanks ed drop ne a lune offlist... thanks....Ed# On Sunday, December 27, 2020 Gary L. Messick via cctalk wrote: Chris, I could use one.? I have an h-11 system that has issues with the h-27 system. Please contact me off list. Gary Gary at realtimecomp.com -------- Original message -------- From: Chris Zach via cctalk Date: 12/27/20 4:42 PM (GMT-05:00) To: CCTalk mailing list Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? I have one, and if someone needs to to complete their collection I'd rather it goes there. If you just want to put it on Ebay pls don't bother as I can do that but if you really need one let me know. CZ From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 27 17:02:37 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 23:02:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: No subject References: <541293525.4819685.1609110157263.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <541293525.4819685.1609110157263@mail.yahoo.com> From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Dec 27 17:19:17 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 15:19:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Toshiba "1-chip" things Message-ID: <202012272319.0BRNJHQs13304036@floodgap.com> There's a whole bunch of Toshiba "1-chip" QFPs I've run across. Does anyone know of datasheets, or what components (mask ROM, LCD, RAM, I/O, ...) they have? These are usually in cheapie toy systems, particularly VTech. Some allegedly have Z80-compatible cores in them. T7951 (I found this paired with a 2764 ROM) T7812 T7813 T7826 They all appear to be part of the same family. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Denial: it's not just a river in Egypt anymore, is it? -- "True Lies" ------ From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 17:45:53 2020 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 20:45:53 -0300 Subject: Toshiba "1-chip" things In-Reply-To: <202012272319.0BRNJHQs13304036@floodgap.com> References: <202012272319.0BRNJHQs13304036@floodgap.com> Message-ID: T7775 is the msx engine (msx1) You can find others here: https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX-Engine Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em dom, 27 de dez de 2020 20:19, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu: > There's a whole bunch of Toshiba "1-chip" QFPs I've run across. Does anyone > know of datasheets, or what components (mask ROM, LCD, RAM, I/O, ...) they > have? These are usually in cheapie toy systems, particularly VTech. Some > allegedly have Z80-compatible cores in them. > > T7951 (I found this paired with a 2764 ROM) > T7812 > T7813 > T7826 > > They all appear to be part of the same family. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Denial: it's not just a river in Egypt anymore, is it? -- "True Lies" > ------ > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 23:13:40 2020 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 02:13:40 -0300 Subject: Looking for HP E8285A Software cards and card images Message-ID: The subject says all =) I'm specially interested in images (or the cards) of the 11807E opt 100 and the A.02.04 firmware Thanks! Alexandre, PU2SEX ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com http://www.tabalabs.com.br ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 08:07:59 2020 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 08:07:59 -0600 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4041 EZ-TEST DC-100 Tapes or software files, or other 4041 tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have been recovering a set of Tektronix 4041 tapes that I received from Stan Griffiths in 2000 in a box with Tektronix 4051 tapes. The 4041 tapes included EZ-TEST Volume 1 and Volume 2, but the first file on EZ-TEST Volume 1 tape was damaged due to the original drive belt removing the oxide from the beginning of the tape when I replaced the belt :( I have been posting all the tapes I have recovered to my github repository for Tektronix 4041 located at: https://github.com/mmcgraw74/Tektronix-4041-GPIB-Controller Does anyone have the EZ-TEST Volume 1 DC-100 tape? Thanks, Monty From marvin at west.net Mon Dec 28 12:44:06 2020 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 10:44:06 -0800 Subject: FFS - PrismIQ Keyboards Message-ID: <79d47da6-3051-020e-ed78-d45d883e1e64@west.net> I am starting to clean out stuff, and one of the things I don't need are these new PrismIQ IR keyboards. Apparently they were originally used with some multimedia stuff in the early 2000s. Because I am just trying to get rid of this stuff, I am only offering them in cases (boxes) of 10 keyboards. These use IR to connect to the device and have no other connectors. The keyboards are membrane type with the main chip inside being a Winbond W78le812-24. Power is supplied by four AA batteries. The cases (10 keyboards) are 20 pounds with a size of 18"x18"x10", and I am in Santa Barbara, CA. Unfortunately, I am unlikely to run out since I have some 40+ cases of them. I generally ship USPS Priority but can ship UPS if necessary. And again, they are free for the cost of shipping. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 15:51:09 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 15:51:09 -0600 Subject: In-Reply-To: <541293525.4819685.1609110157263@mail.yahoo.com> References: <541293525.4819685.1609110157263.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <541293525.4819685.1609110157263@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: you got marked as spam ed On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 5:02 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 28 15:56:25 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 13:56:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: In-Reply-To: References: <541293525.4819685.1609110157263.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <541293525.4819685.1609110157263@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It was probably the wording and spelling in his message. Or, maybe extraneous spaces. On Mon, 28 Dec 2020, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > you got marked as spam ed > > On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 5:02 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk > wrote: > >> >> >> > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 15:59:18 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 15:59:18 -0600 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: <541293525.4819685.1609110157263.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <541293525.4819685.1609110157263@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: it apears to be a black whole :P On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 3:56 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > It was probably the wording and spelling in his message. > Or, maybe extraneous spaces. > > > On Mon, 28 Dec 2020, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > > you got marked as spam ed > > > > On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 5:02 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 28 16:01:52 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:01:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: In-Reply-To: References: <541293525.4819685.1609110157263.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <541293525.4819685.1609110157263@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Dec 2020, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > you got marked as spam ed > > On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 5:02 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk > wrote: > Hey look! A spam filter doing it's job! \o/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 16:12:09 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 17:12:09 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail Message-ID: Hi, I have noticed the same email addresses' messages routinely end up in the spam folder of gmail. It's no big deal for me to check my spam folder but it's an extra step and messages can be lost. For those of you who run your own mail servers please consider updating your DNS / authentication to match gmail standards. It's not about making a filter or marking messages as "not spam". It's about how the sending mail server communicates with gmail and the "newer" mail server gateway protocols, etc. so that it's not necessary to make a filter in the first place.' There are a lot of how-to's on the web, each mail server is different and there is no simple fix that applies to all. Bill From lproven at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 16:25:03 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 23:25:03 +0100 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 at 23:12, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > I have noticed the same email addresses' messages routinely end up in the > spam folder of gmail. I have 2 nested folders (labels/tags/whatever) in Gmail: classiccmp/talk and classiccmp/tech. In my rule which filters messages into those folders, I ticked the box that says never to send messages matching the filter to spam. Problem solved. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cym224 at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 16:29:03 2020 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 17:29:03 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/28/20 17:12, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote (in part): > I have noticed the same email addresses' messages routinely end up in > the spam folder of gmail. [...] > For those of you who run your own mail servers please consider > updating your DNS / authentication to match gmail standards. Apologies for asking but what the gmail standards? Anything from yahoo.com, some of Google's own alerts, and items from lists.dwarfstd.org were all marked as spam. N. > There are a lot of how-to's on the web, each mail server is different > and there is no simple fix that applies to all. Bill From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Dec 28 16:40:25 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 17:40:25 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Apologies for asking but what the gmail standards?? Anything from > yahoo.com, some of Google's own alerts, and items from > lists.dwarfstd.org were all marked as spam. They really won't tell you. I run into problems with them from time to time, they seem to want to only talk to microsoft.com type domains and other big email domains. Which is odd because a lot of junk comes from them. Maybe they get a cut. Or maybe Gmail just wants you to use it instead of anything else. However setting up SPF records is a very good start. Alembic follows DMARC standards by using SPF which is considered a pass by pretty much everyone but does not do DKIM (mainly because it's a pain to set up on the client). A good place to start is: https://tools.socketlabs.com/dmarc/generator Also helps to do TLS encryption which requires real certs. LetsEncrypt is an excellent way to get a trusted cert on your system without paying $100's per year. https://support.google.com/a/answer/9276512 Good basic mail tester test-vckcjzcej at srv1.mail-tester.com Better advanced tester. https://www.checktls.com/TestReceiver Anyway, hope this helps. CZ > > N. > >> There are a lot of how-to's on the web, each mail server is different >> and there is no simple fix that applies to all. Bill > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 16:50:36 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 17:50:36 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 5:25 PM Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 at 23:12, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > I have noticed the same email addresses' messages routinely end up in the > > spam folder of gmail. > > I have 2 nested folders (labels/tags/whatever) in Gmail: > classiccmp/talk and classiccmp/tech. In my rule which filters messages > into those folders, I ticked the box that says never to send messages > matching the filter to spam. > > Problem solved. > > > Liam, As I said I can set up a filter but that does not really solve the problem it compensates for it in the cctalk world only. If you send an email from an old or incorrectly configured mail server to someone in gmail who does not have a filter ready to receive your message it will end up in spam and they won't get it unless they check their spam folder. If I was using a mail server that was causing messages to be dumped into the spam folder due to issues with mail gateway authentication/delivery, I'd want to fix it. Logical that one would want messages to be received and delivered to the inbox of the recipient with the highest percentage possible Bill From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Dec 28 16:58:36 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 22:58:36 +0000 (WET) Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01RTQ5KGHUSG8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> > > Apologies for asking but what the gmail standards?? Anything from > > yahoo.com, some of Google's own alerts, and items from > > lists.dwarfstd.org were all marked as spam. > > They really won't tell you. I run into problems with them from time to > time, they seem to want to only talk to microsoft.com type domains and > other big email domains. Which is odd because a lot of junk comes from > them. Maybe they get a cut. Or maybe Gmail just wants you to use it > instead of anything else. > My experience is also that Google will not tell me. They used to have web pages detailing what they were looking for years ago but I think it eventually dawned on them that the spammers can read these too. I have made sure my forward and reverse dns entries and the EHLO domain name my mailserver uses are all correct and I have set up SPF records for my domain yet Google still put lots of emails I send to gmail.com and other Google mail service users in their spam folders. Additionally, my experience is that when I find someone abusing Google services to send or otherwise facilitate spam, Google do not provide any way that I can notify them about this abuse. Best advice is to suggest to the sender that they use a different email provider, one that doesn't put their legitimate incoming emails in the bin. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jim.manley at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 17:20:39 2020 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 16:20:39 -0700 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? In-Reply-To: <01ff0954-2f6e-afc4-5582-cac31d217d79@alembic.crystel.com> References: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8927F792D3F@SERVER.RealTime.local> <01ff0954-2f6e-afc4-5582-cac31d217d79@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 3:12 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > It is the way.... The Force is strong in this one ... > > From kl at 2k.ca Mon Dec 28 17:23:15 2020 From: kl at 2k.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 00:23:15 +0100 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? In-Reply-To: References: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8927F792D3F@SERVER.RealTime.local> <01ff0954-2f6e-afc4-5582-cac31d217d79@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <1912b086-320b-4746-a76b-46729efcf061@www.fastmail.com> Remember. Wherever you go...... There you are ....... .... On Tue, Dec 29, 2020, at 12:20 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 3:12 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: > > > It is the way.... > > > The Force is strong in this one ... > > > > > > From cym224 at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 17:29:16 2020 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 18:29:16 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <01RTQ5KGHUSG8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RTQ5KGHUSG8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 12/28/20 17:58, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> > Apologies for asking but what the gmail standards? Anything from > >> yahoo.com, some of Google's own alerts, and items from > >> lists.dwarfstd.org were all marked as spam. >> >> They really won't tell you. I run into problems with them from time >> to time, they seem to want to only talk to microsoft.com type domains >> and other big email domains. Which is odd because a lot of junk comes >> from them. Maybe they get a cut. Or maybe Gmail just wants you to use >> it instead of anything else. >> > > My experience is also that Google will not tell me. They used to have > web pages detailing what they were looking for years ago but I think > it eventually dawned on them that the spammers can read these too. Thank you both for your information but I am still mystified as to why Gmail marks Google alerts (from Google!) as spam. N. > > I have made sure my forward and reverse dns entries and the EHLO domain > name my mailserver uses are all correct and I have set up SPF records > for my domain yet Google still put lots of emails I send to gmail.com > and other Google mail service users in their spam folders. > > Additionally, my experience is that when I find someone abusing Google > services to send or otherwise facilitate spam, Google do not provide > any way that I can notify them about this abuse. > > Best advice is to suggest to the sender that they use a different > email provider, one that doesn't put their legitimate incoming emails > in the bin. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 28 17:37:51 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 16:37:51 -0700 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? -spam In-Reply-To: <1912b086-320b-4746-a76b-46729efcf061@www.fastmail.com> References: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8927F792D3F@SERVER.RealTime.local> <01ff0954-2f6e-afc4-5582-cac31d217d79@alembic.crystel.com> <1912b086-320b-4746-a76b-46729efcf061@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: <27dad678-6fb2-f28c-2f62-75622c6e3b9d@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/28/2020 4:23 PM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: > Remember. > > Wherever you go...... > > There you are ....... > What about the Invisible Man? Ben. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Dec 28 17:43:37 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 18:43:37 -0500 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? -spam In-Reply-To: <27dad678-6fb2-f28c-2f62-75622c6e3b9d@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8927F792D3F@SERVER.RealTime.local> <01ff0954-2f6e-afc4-5582-cac31d217d79@alembic.crystel.com> <1912b086-320b-4746-a76b-46729efcf061@www.fastmail.com> <27dad678-6fb2-f28c-2f62-75622c6e3b9d@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 12/28/20 6:37 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 12/28/2020 4:23 PM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: >> Remember. >> >> Wherever you go...... >> >> There you are ....... >> > What about the Invisible Man? > Ben. > > All joking aside, I sure wish I had a complete H-11. I have PDP-11's but the H-11 was unique. You know, it would be even cooler sitting next to an H-8. Too bad so few seem to have survived. bill From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Dec 28 18:04:12 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 19:04:12 -0500 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? -spam In-Reply-To: References: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8927F792D3F@SERVER.RealTime.local> <01ff0954-2f6e-afc4-5582-cac31d217d79@alembic.crystel.com> <1912b086-320b-4746-a76b-46729efcf061@www.fastmail.com> <27dad678-6fb2-f28c-2f62-75622c6e3b9d@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > All joking aside, I sure wish I had a complete H-11.? I have > PDP-11's but the H-11 was unique. They're around. I had one when I was little and it was ok but kind of clunky. The box was odd, it only had 16 (maybe 18?) bits wired on the backplane and the power supply was a linear rock if I remember right. Still, it ran Rt11 pretty well. But an 11/23+ would give you the VM: ram disk driver that allowed you to just copy the whole OS to memory, boot, and run fast!. C From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 28 18:07:27 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 17:07:27 -0700 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? -spam In-Reply-To: References: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8927F792D3F@SERVER.RealTime.local> <01ff0954-2f6e-afc4-5582-cac31d217d79@alembic.crystel.com> <1912b086-320b-4746-a76b-46729efcf061@www.fastmail.com> <27dad678-6fb2-f28c-2f62-75622c6e3b9d@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <664ee42f-6a50-de0a-5710-c71bf6beda47@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/28/2020 4:43 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 12/28/20 6:37 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/28/2020 4:23 PM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: >>> Remember. >>> >>> Wherever you go...... >>> >>> There you are ....... >>> >> What about the Invisible Man? >> Ben. >> >> > > > All joking aside, I sure wish I had a complete H-11.? I have > PDP-11's but the H-11 was unique. > > You know, it would be even cooler sitting next to an H-8. > > Too bad so few seem to have survived. > > bill > I suspect it was more the case of too few were purchased. The high price of the H-11 must have been a factor. Was the H-11 cpu crippled for Heath Kit? I wished for one at the time, but was there any application software? Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 28 18:39:45 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 16:39:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <01RTQ5KGHUSG8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Dec 2020, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > Thank you both for your information but I am still mystified as to why Gmail > marks Google alerts (from Google!) as spam. True Independence of departments? When the spam filter people encounter something that THEY consider spam, they don't feel obligated to give it a pass, just because it comes from another department of their own company. From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Dec 28 18:45:23 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 00:45:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? -spam References: <142759588.5153917.1609202723630.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <142759588.5153917.1609202723630@mail.yahoo.com> I am trying to have cplete. H8 h11 and h89 tjus the need for the pardon I requested Ed Sharpe? archiving for smecc museum.project On Monday, December 28, 2020 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 12/28/20 6:37 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 12/28/2020 4:23 PM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: >> Remember. >> >> Wherever you go...... >> >> There you are ....... >> > What about the Invisible Man? > Ben. > > All joking aside, I sure wish I had a complete H-11.? I have PDP-11's but the H-11 was unique. You know, it would be even cooler sitting next to an H-8. Too bad so few seem to have survived. bill From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Dec 28 18:55:18 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 00:55:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? References: <1303306502.5189199.1609203318402.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1303306502.5189199.1609203318402@mail.yahoo.com> Did you need my address Chris?? Thanks Ed# On Sunday, December 27, 2020 ED SHARPE wrote: We have a heath h11 that could u se one at smecc museum.project...Chris.? Thanks ed drop ne a lune offlist... thanks....Ed# On Sunday, December 27, 2020 Gary L. Messick via cctalk wrote: Chris, I could use one.? I have an h-11 system that has issues with the h-27 system. Please contact me off list. Gary Gary at realtimecomp.com -------- Original message -------- From: Chris Zach via cctalk Date: 12/27/20 4:42 PM (GMT-05:00) To: CCTalk mailing list Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? I have one, and if someone needs to to complete their collection I'd rather it goes there. If you just want to put it on Ebay pls don't bother as I can do that but if you really need one let me know. CZ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 28 18:56:25 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 16:56:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <01RTQ5KGHUSG8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RTQ5KGHUSG8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Long ago, some mailing list people found that some newbies, rather than properly UNSUBSCRIBE, after sending a message directly to the list saying, "UNSCRIBE ME", would then proceed to mark their incoming messages from the list as "SPAM" in order to stop receiving them. GOOGLE, would of course, see that a certain address got marked as SPAM by several people, so GOOGLE would then classify messages from those addresses, disunirregardless of recipient, as SPAM. List owners would plead with people to UNSUBSCRIBE properly, and to not mark messages from the list as SPAM, and even to periodically go to your SPAM folder and mark list messages as "NOT SPAM". GOOGLE would further assume that ALL messages with any address from a given domain should be sorted the same, unless the domain was one of the ones on their list of BIG domains. If you are a small domain, one classification might get applied to entire domain, rather than just one address within the domain. Often, even the sorting would be done by the address or domain in the FROM line, rather than the actual IP address where it originated. Thus, a spammer who spoofs a valid email address can cause the legitimate owner of that email address to struggle to get out of being classified as SPAM. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Dec 28 19:10:59 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 17:10:59 -0800 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/28/2020 2:25 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 at 23:12, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: >> Hi, >> I have noticed the same email addresses' messages routinely end up in the >> spam folder of gmail. > I have 2 nested folders (labels/tags/whatever) in Gmail: > classiccmp/talk and classiccmp/tech. In my rule which filters messages > into those folders, I ticked the box that says never to send messages > matching the filter to spam. > > Problem solved. > Googles filters are garbage.? Problem not solved.? I still get plenty of spam markings by Google with the headers or something about the traffic. I get multiple messages that fail the filter rule (same as yours) which stay in the inbox as well. The only filtering system that's worked (so far) is the one in Thunderbird.? Also with the flow into Thunderbird, I don't use any spam filters, and never see any cctalk/tech messages left behind. Useless data, in early days when there was unlimited email storage I thought I'd be clever and subscribe on both my gmail account and my personal alias for cctalk.? Didn't work out that way because so much screwing up by google. thanks Jim From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Dec 28 19:14:57 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 20:14:57 -0500 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? -spam In-Reply-To: References: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8927F792D3F@SERVER.RealTime.local> <01ff0954-2f6e-afc4-5582-cac31d217d79@alembic.crystel.com> <1912b086-320b-4746-a76b-46729efcf061@www.fastmail.com> <27dad678-6fb2-f28c-2f62-75622c6e3b9d@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 12/28/20 7:04 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> All joking aside, I sure wish I had a complete H-11.? I have >> PDP-11's but the H-11 was unique. > > They're around. I had one when I was little and it was ok but kind of > clunky. The box was odd, it only had 16 (maybe 18?) bits wired on the > backplane and the power supply was a linear rock if I remember right. I imagine 16 bits. It probably had an 11/02 processor just like the TERAK. 18 and 22 came later. > > Still, it ran Rt11 pretty well. But an 11/23+ would give you the VM: ram > disk driver that allowed you to just copy the whole OS to memory, boot, > and run fast!. > I know it ran HT-11 which was supposed to be a custom RT-11. Would it run regular RT-11? Was the H-27 fully RX01 compatible? bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Dec 28 19:18:04 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 20:18:04 -0500 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? -spam In-Reply-To: <664ee42f-6a50-de0a-5710-c71bf6beda47@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8927F792D3F@SERVER.RealTime.local> <01ff0954-2f6e-afc4-5582-cac31d217d79@alembic.crystel.com> <1912b086-320b-4746-a76b-46729efcf061@www.fastmail.com> <27dad678-6fb2-f28c-2f62-75622c6e3b9d@jetnet.ab.ca> <664ee42f-6a50-de0a-5710-c71bf6beda47@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 12/28/20 7:07 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 12/28/2020 4:43 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/28/20 6:37 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> On 12/28/2020 4:23 PM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: >>>> Remember. >>>> >>>> Wherever you go...... >>>> >>>> There you are ....... >>>> >>> What about the Invisible Man? >>> Ben. >>> >>> >> >> >> All joking aside, I sure wish I had a complete H-11.? I have >> PDP-11's but the H-11 was unique. >> >> You know, it would be even cooler sitting next to an H-8. >> >> Too bad so few seem to have survived. >> >> bill >> > I suspect it was more the case of too few were purchased. The high price > of the H-11 must have been a factor. Was the H-11 cpu crippled for Heath > Kit? I wished for one at the time, but was there any application software? > Ben. As far as I knew it was a real DEC CPU Module. I expect any application that ran on RT-11 on the LSI-11/02 would have run on the H-11 but then, you couldn't just walk into your local computer hobby shop and by RT-11 software. :-) bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Dec 28 19:20:50 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 20:20:50 -0500 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? -spam In-Reply-To: <142759588.5153917.1609202723630@mail.yahoo.com> References: <142759588.5153917.1609202723630.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <142759588.5153917.1609202723630@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12/28/20 7:45 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > I am trying to have cplete. H8 h11 and h89 tjus the need for the pardon I requested > While I have always wanted the H-11 and the H-8 I can honestly say I was never impressed or interested in the H-89. bill From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon Dec 28 19:52:44 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 01:52:44 +0000 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? -spam In-Reply-To: References: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8927F792D3F@SERVER.RealTime.local> <01ff0954-2f6e-afc4-5582-cac31d217d79@alembic.crystel.com> <1912b086-320b-4746-a76b-46729efcf061@www.fastmail.com> <27dad678-6fb2-f28c-2f62-75622c6e3b9d@jetnet.ab.ca> <664ee42f-6a50-de0a-5710-c71bf6beda47@jetnet.ab.ca>, Message-ID: I have an H11 but not an H27 controller. The story I remember reading is that it ran a modified and incompatible RT11 because DEC didn?t want to cannibalize sales on the inexpensive PDP-11?s. I have a write up about this on my web site. I can say that it does indeed run real RT11 if loaded with a TU58 emulator or if using SCSI (like with an Emulex card and SCSI2SD). A second SLU is needed for the TU58 of course. I ran a DLV11J on mine. Rich http://www.classiccmp.org/cini Long Island S100 User?s Group Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Monday, December 28, 2020 8:18:04 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? -spam On 12/28/20 7:07 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 12/28/2020 4:43 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/28/20 6:37 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> On 12/28/2020 4:23 PM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: >>>> Remember. >>>> >>>> Wherever you go...... >>>> >>>> There you are ....... >>>> >>> What about the Invisible Man? >>> Ben. >>> >>> >> >> >> All joking aside, I sure wish I had a complete H-11. I have >> PDP-11's but the H-11 was unique. >> >> You know, it would be even cooler sitting next to an H-8. >> >> Too bad so few seem to have survived. >> >> bill >> > I suspect it was more the case of too few were purchased. The high price > of the H-11 must have been a factor. Was the H-11 cpu crippled for Heath > Kit? I wished for one at the time, but was there any application software? > Ben. As far as I knew it was a real DEC CPU Module. I expect any application that ran on RT-11 on the LSI-11/02 would have run on the H-11 but then, you couldn't just walk into your local computer hobby shop and by RT-11 software. :-) bill From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Dec 28 20:17:44 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 02:17:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? -spam References: <265346039.5225541.1609208264397.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <265346039.5225541.1609208264397@mail.yahoo.com> All H- computers. Are welcome! Well.. we want to show the entire product line. We have a hero robot too. . All we need is the h89 and stuff to finish out the h89 drive subsystem? for h11 and make it work... this board is a game changer.. It would be nice?? to gave heath analog? computer also .... anyone recomend? any other adds we may have overlooked ?? Thanks Ed# On Monday, December 28, 2020 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 12/28/20 7:45 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > I am trying to have cplete. H8 h11 and h89 tjus the need for the pardon I requested > While I have always wanted the H-11 and the H-8 I can honestly say I was never impressed or interested in the H-89. bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 20:24:23 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 21:24:23 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 8:11 PM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 12/28/2020 2:25 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 at 23:12, Bill Degnan via cctalk > > wrote: > >> Hi, > >> I have noticed the same email addresses' messages routinely end up in > the > >> spam folder of gmail. > > I have 2 nested folders (labels/tags/whatever) in Gmail: > > classiccmp/talk and classiccmp/tech. In my rule which filters messages > > into those folders, I ticked the box that says never to send messages > > matching the filter to spam. > > > > Problem solved. > > > Googles filters are garbage. Problem not solved. I still get plenty of > spam markings by Google with the headers or something about the traffic. > > I get multiple messages that fail the filter rule (same as yours) which > stay in the inbox as well. > > The only filtering system that's worked (so far) is the one in > Thunderbird. Also with the flow into Thunderbird, I don't use any spam > filters, and never see any cctalk/tech messages left behind. > > Useless data, in early days when there was unlimited email storage I > thought I'd be clever and subscribe on both my gmail account and my > personal alias for cctalk. Didn't work out that way because so much > screwing up by google. > > thanks > Jim > I do this for a living so I am speaking professionally here. It's not about filters it's about server to server authentication. There is a best practice for "mail serving" authentication, DNS, encryption and the like. The old days when messages were simply scanned for spam phrases is long over. The greylisting and all that is old fashioned. If your mail server does not follow the modern best practices your message will accumulate enough strikes against it to cause it to be marked as spam. On the receiving end one can filter messages "out of spam" but that's an after the fact local software thing.. It does not solve the reason / issue causing the need to have filters in the first place. This is why fewer and fewer private mail servers are still running. They can't keep up with all of the required protocols. It's a bummer but it's the way it is. The commercialization of the web is a done deal. Bill From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Dec 28 21:20:37 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 21:20:37 -0600 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? -spam In-Reply-To: References: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8927F792D3F@SERVER.RealTime.local> <01ff0954-2f6e-afc4-5582-cac31d217d79@alembic.crystel.com> <1912b086-320b-4746-a76b-46729efcf061@www.fastmail.com> <27dad678-6fb2-f28c-2f62-75622c6e3b9d@jetnet.ab.ca> <664ee42f-6a50-de0a-5710-c71bf6beda47@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5FEAA085.5070108@pico-systems.com> On 12/28/2020 07:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > As far as I knew it was a real DEC CPU Module. I expect > any application > that ran on RT-11 on the LSI-11/02 would have run on the > H-11 but then, > you couldn't just walk into your local computer hobby shop > and by RT-11 > software. :-) Yes, it was a totally stock DEC LSI-11 CPU, but most of them didn't have any other Dec components except the backplane. All the memory, serial and printer interface cards were made by Heath. Jon From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Dec 28 21:30:52 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 22:30:52 -0500 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? In-Reply-To: <1303306502.5189199.1609203318402@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1303306502.5189199.1609203318402.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1303306502.5189199.1609203318402@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <75393b81-22a9-bd53-f033-763b5d7597ef@alembic.crystel.com> Nope. Board is on its way to a member to help fix his system, then another member, then another..... Better than sitting in a museum pile. I'm trying to get this stuff to people who can use it. Then Ebay, then "museums". Not in a great mood about museum collections at the moment. :-) C On 12/28/2020 7:55 PM, ED SHARPE wrote: > Did you need my address Chris?? Thanks Ed# From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Dec 28 21:41:50 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 22:41:50 -0500 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? -spam In-Reply-To: References: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8927F792D3F@SERVER.RealTime.local> <01ff0954-2f6e-afc4-5582-cac31d217d79@alembic.crystel.com> <1912b086-320b-4746-a76b-46729efcf061@www.fastmail.com> <27dad678-6fb2-f28c-2f62-75622c6e3b9d@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1c89ed33-728e-7466-20b9-46bb07ffa202@alembic.crystel.com> > I imagine 16 bits.? It probably had an 11/02 processor just like > the TERAK.? 18 and 22 came later. I think it was: I dimly remember I could not get an 11/23 cpu to work in it with a pair of 32kw memory boards. But the 11/03 cpu worked fine, as did my quad width 11/03 CPU with the 4k of onboard memory and the WCS11 board underneath it. I should fix that board. It was weird but cute. > I know it ran HT-11 which was supposed to be a custom RT-11.? Would it > run regular RT-11?? Was the H-27 fully RX01 compatible? It could, but I think I used an RXV11 for the floppy drive. The serial port and the memory were perfectly normal devices, albeit hand-made. I think the floppy controller was different. Someone else can try it. C From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 28 23:23:04 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 21:23:04 -0800 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8a2c6a6d-0420-d857-b7df-d682e916dd5a@sydex.com> I've had similar problems with gmail (I get my mail via POP3, not over the web). I solved it by "whitelisting" the problem sites. Here's a "how to": https://www.jotform.com/help/404-how-to-prevent-emails-from-landing-in-gmails-spam-folder --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Dec 29 00:08:07 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 22:08:07 -0800 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/28/2020 6:24 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > I do this for a living so I am speaking professionally here. The comment is about the Gmail filters working.? Their spam filtering is? what you refer to. All of my filters work randomly.? I also get emails from their own sources in the form of google group feeds and they fail to work about a third of the time.? Simple filter:? Take unibone google group feed, place it into my "unibone" folder. Nope. It's not just cctalk/cctech. I had the spam filter set up to never delete, but I believe they are not only emptying it, but are now starting to empty the trash, even if you pay them for the space to delete nothing. thanks Jim From lproven at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 05:13:51 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 12:13:51 +0100 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 at 23:50, Bill Degnan wrote: > > Liam, > As I said I can set up a filter but that does not really solve the problem it compensates for it in the cctalk world only. OK, that's fair. If I stuck a finger in the air and guesstimated, I'd say about 95% of my email is filtered, and I generally tick this box in all my filters, so I suspect that most things that go into folders -- I have over 100 now, I think -- don't go to spam. In 16Y on Gmail, I've had one significant false-positive that I recall -- the editor at Linux Weekly News was trying to contact me and consistently it got filed as spam. That's all I can remember. A few a month _don't_ get filed as spam, if that. So, yes, it's a problem, but for me, a small one, and all spam filters have it. > If you send an email from an old or incorrectly configured mail server to someone in gmail who does not have a filter ready to receive your message it will end up in spam and they won't get it unless they check their spam folder. If I was using a mail server that was causing messages to be dumped into the spam folder due to issues with mail gateway authentication/delivery, I'd want to fix it. Logical that one would want messages to be received and delivered to the inbox of the recipient with the highest percentage possible I have contacts who run or ran professional mail-filtering services and mostly these days I see comments that it is not possible to _completely_ solve this problem, unfortunately. :-( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Dec 29 05:14:40 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 12:14:40 +0100 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 05:12:09PM -0500, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: [...] > For those of you who run your own mail servers please consider updating > your DNS / authentication to match gmail standards. Google has more resources than me. How about they update their systems to match Internet email standards? [...] > There are a lot of how-to's on the web, each mail server is different and > there is no simple fix that applies to all. Where shall I send the invoices for the time to do this plus the ongoing maintenance due to Google's embrace, extend, and extinguish approach to Internet standards? From lproven at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 05:15:55 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 12:15:55 +0100 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <01RTQ5KGHUSG8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 at 00:29, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > > Thank you both for your information but I am still mystified as to why > Gmail marks Google alerts (from Google!) as spam. That is particularly amusing/irritating, yes. I have 3 or 4 connected accounts -- AOL, Hotmail, Yahoo, etc. -- and when it detects what it thinks are intrusion attempts, Google notifies me on all of them. Then the ones to non-Google services get collected into Gmail, and promptly flagged as spam. But I suppose that, to Google, Google errors that didn't come from Google but from non-Google services _are_ suspicious... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 05:36:46 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 11:36:46 -0000 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <01RTQ5KGHUSG8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <03eb01d6ddd6$e3c49760$ab4dc620$@gmail.com> Folks, I used to manage e-mail filters for our local council. They were "pants". Generally I could spot spam just from the subject line, and for some reason they couldn't. Almost all the lists I am on have been having recent issues with things going to SPAM. I think a lot is because of the demise of Yahoo. ... and Microsoft cleaned up Hotmail a long time ago. I seldom see SPAM from Hotmail addresses. GMAIL more often, but most often it appears to be from a compromised windows machine Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Liam Proven via > cctalk > Sent: 29 December 2020 11:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Emails going to spam folder in gmail > > On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 at 00:29, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Thank you both for your information but I am still mystified as to why > > Gmail marks Google alerts (from Google!) as spam. > > That is particularly amusing/irritating, yes. > > I have 3 or 4 connected accounts -- AOL, Hotmail, Yahoo, etc. -- and when it > detects what it thinks are intrusion attempts, Google notifies me on all of > them. Then the ones to non-Google services get collected into Gmail, and > promptly flagged as spam. But I suppose that, to Google, Google errors that > didn't come from Google but from non-Google services _are_ suspicious... > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Dec 29 08:30:29 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 09:30:29 -0500 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? -spam In-Reply-To: <5FEAA085.5070108@pico-systems.com> References: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8927F792D3F@SERVER.RealTime.local> <01ff0954-2f6e-afc4-5582-cac31d217d79@alembic.crystel.com> <1912b086-320b-4746-a76b-46729efcf061@www.fastmail.com> <27dad678-6fb2-f28c-2f62-75622c6e3b9d@jetnet.ab.ca> <664ee42f-6a50-de0a-5710-c71bf6beda47@jetnet.ab.ca> <5FEAA085.5070108@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 12/28/20 10:20 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/28/2020 07:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> As far as I knew it was a real DEC CPU Module.? I expect any application >> that ran on RT-11 on the LSI-11/02 would have run on the H-11 but then, >> you couldn't just walk into your local computer hobby shop and by RT-11 >> software.? :-) > Yes, it was a totally stock DEC LSI-11 CPU, but most of them didn't have > any other > Dec components except the backplane.? All the memory, serial and printer > interface cards > were made by Heath. Was it a DEC backplane? Any idea which one? bill From rich.cini at verizon.net Tue Dec 29 08:49:20 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 14:49:20 +0000 Subject: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? -spam In-Reply-To: References: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8927F792D3F@SERVER.RealTime.local> <01ff0954-2f6e-afc4-5582-cac31d217d79@alembic.crystel.com> <1912b086-320b-4746-a76b-46729efcf061@www.fastmail.com> <27dad678-6fb2-f28c-2f62-75622c6e3b9d@jetnet.ab.ca> <664ee42f-6a50-de0a-5710-c71bf6beda47@jetnet.ab.ca> <5FEAA085.5070108@pico-systems.com>, Message-ID: Backplane connectors were soldered to a custom PCB. It wasn?t a stock DEC backplane. Boards have to be installed ?serpentine? I believe. I have an H11 in the attic. Don?t use it much any more now that I have an 11/23+ in the shop. http://www.classiccmp.org/cini Long Island S100 User?s Group Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2020 9:30:29 AM To: Jon Elson ; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Does anyone have an H11 and need a H27 card? -spam On 12/28/20 10:20 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/28/2020 07:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> As far as I knew it was a real DEC CPU Module. I expect any application >> that ran on RT-11 on the LSI-11/02 would have run on the H-11 but then, >> you couldn't just walk into your local computer hobby shop and by RT-11 >> software. :-) > Yes, it was a totally stock DEC LSI-11 CPU, but most of them didn't have > any other > Dec components except the backplane. All the memory, serial and printer > interface cards > were made by Heath. Was it a DEC backplane? Any idea which one? bill From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Dec 29 09:04:53 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 10:04:53 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65d4a999-1843-f18c-a424-4a6ee63a5b26@alembic.crystel.com> > Google has more resources than me. How about they update their systems to > match Internet email standards? The big problem isn't google doing it: They can do whatever they want. The problem comes when state and local governments switch to google mail services and now your constituents can no longer contact their govt officials. This happens here and it is *extremely* annoying. CZ From nw.johnson at ieee.org Tue Dec 29 09:07:00 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 10:07:00 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <65d4a999-1843-f18c-a424-4a6ee63a5b26@alembic.crystel.com> References: <65d4a999-1843-f18c-a424-4a6ee63a5b26@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <4c5167a7-66ce-62d9-a4aa-cfbd1f418728@ieee.org> The IEEE also uses google! One of my NetBSD correspondents simply blocks all mail from google servers on his system! cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2020-12-29 10:04 a.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Google has more resources than me. How about they update their >> systems to >> match Internet email standards? > > The big problem isn't google doing it: They can do whatever they want. > > The problem comes when state and local governments switch to google > mail services and now your constituents can no longer contact their > govt officials. This happens here and it is *extremely* annoying. > > CZ From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Dec 29 09:43:48 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 10:43:48 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <4c5167a7-66ce-62d9-a4aa-cfbd1f418728@ieee.org> References: <65d4a999-1843-f18c-a424-4a6ee63a5b26@alembic.crystel.com> <4c5167a7-66ce-62d9-a4aa-cfbd1f418728@ieee.org> Message-ID: <5831ce0b-6294-3f00-7a80-83f3bbab005f@alembic.crystel.com> You're kidding? I actually *wrote* the entire E-account, E-Alias, and E-commerce system used by the IEEE Computer Society back in 1995, and I keep my membership because of the mail forwarding to my home address. Amazingly enough the forms I developed are still used, and I'd guess the back end code as well. Not bad for 25 years. http://cs-ems.ieee.org/ I left the Computer Society in 2000 after that complete fuckage takeover trick by Daniel Senese from the IEEE. Since then they haven't done much of a thing to support either computing or technology. Innovation there pretty much died... The fact that they would use a non-standard, monopoly, proprietary, privacy stealing email solution is just not a surprise at all. Ah well, things happen. We did have an amazing run there for 6 years but all good things.... CZ On 12/29/2020 10:07 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > The IEEE also uses google! > > One of my NetBSD correspondents simply blocks all mail from google > servers on his system! > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 2020-12-29 10:04 a.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>> Google has more resources than me. How about they update their >>> systems to >>> match Internet email standards? >> >> The big problem isn't google doing it: They can do whatever they want. >> >> The problem comes when state and local governments switch to google >> mail services and now your constituents can no longer contact their >> govt officials. This happens here and it is *extremely* annoying. >> >> CZ From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Dec 29 09:35:02 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 15:35:02 +0000 (WET) Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01RTR4SK42ME8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> Bill Degnan wrote: > On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 8:11 PM jim stephens via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > On 12/28/2020 2:25 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > > On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 at 23:12, Bill Degnan via cctalk > > > wrote: > > >> Hi, > > >> I have noticed the same email addresses' messages routinely end up in > > the > > >> spam folder of gmail. > > > I have 2 nested folders (labels/tags/whatever) in Gmail: > > > classiccmp/talk and classiccmp/tech. In my rule which filters messages > > > into those folders, I ticked the box that says never to send messages > > > matching the filter to spam. > > > > > > Problem solved. > > > > > Googles filters are garbage. Problem not solved. I still get plenty of > > spam markings by Google with the headers or something about the traffic. > > > > I get multiple messages that fail the filter rule (same as yours) which > > stay in the inbox as well. > > > > The only filtering system that's worked (so far) is the one in > > Thunderbird. Also with the flow into Thunderbird, I don't use any spam > > filters, and never see any cctalk/tech messages left behind. > > > > Useless data, in early days when there was unlimited email storage I > > thought I'd be clever and subscribe on both my gmail account and my > > personal alias for cctalk. Didn't work out that way because so much > > screwing up by google. > > > > thanks > > Jim > > > > I do this for a living so I am speaking professionally here. It's not > about filters it's about server to server authentication. There is a best > practice for "mail serving" authentication, DNS, encryption and the like. > The old days when messages were simply scanned for spam phrases is long > over. The greylisting and all that is old fashioned. If your mail server > does not follow the modern best practices your message will accumulate > enough strikes against it to cause it to be marked as spam. On the > receiving end one can filter messages "out of spam" but that's an after the > fact local software thing.. It does not solve the reason / issue causing > the need to have filters in the first place. This is why fewer and fewer > private mail servers are still running. They can't keep up with all of the > required protocols. It's a bummer but it's the way it is. The > commercialization of the web is a done deal. > Bill > Bill, I used to do this stuff for a living until about ten years ago. A lot has changed since then. However, my experience as a small mailserver operator now is that few have problems getting mail from me except users of Google mail services. The big problem with Google is for someone whose business is communications, they just don't want to be communicated with. They don't want to know about faults with any of their services. They don't want to know about anyone abusing their services to send spam or to enable spam and they don't do anything about it unless their automated system detects it. Rogue ISPs have increasingly cottoned on to this and an increasing number of them use Google mail services or in some cases just plain gmail.com mailboxes for the abuse addresses they have to register in ARIN/RIPE/APNIC etc. Then they can ignore the incoming abuse reports forevermore while their corporate mail system chuggs along nicely without getting flooded by them. Better still, they can flag all their incoming abuse reports as spam to Google who will eventually decide the senders are actually sending spams, not genuine abuse reports and guess what happens next? Ever tried to phone Google? You end up in a voice mail jail that asks you in intricate detail what you want to talk to them about and then directs you to some useless web forum where people are talking among themselves about the problems they are having with Google. Unless you are calling Google to spend money on advertising that is. I don't know what happens in that case. Google need to review their motto and start living by it. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From nw.johnson at ieee.org Tue Dec 29 10:03:58 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 11:03:58 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <5831ce0b-6294-3f00-7a80-83f3bbab005f@alembic.crystel.com> References: <65d4a999-1843-f18c-a424-4a6ee63a5b26@alembic.crystel.com> <4c5167a7-66ce-62d9-a4aa-cfbd1f418728@ieee.org> <5831ce0b-6294-3f00-7a80-83f3bbab005f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: My original email alias was from computer.org.? Then I got a mysterious email saying that they were no longer going to offer computer.org email aliases, so I switched to ieee.org.? I had one site refuse to let me use my ieee.org email address to log on since the initial request came from a google server!? He called it a freemail account! Strange world we live in! cheers, NIgel IEEE member for 20+ years now - so I missed the computer society debacle of which you speak. Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2020-12-29 10:43 a.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > You're kidding? I actually *wrote* the entire E-account, E-Alias, and > E-commerce system used by the IEEE Computer Society back in 1995, and > I keep my membership because of the mail forwarding to my home address. > > Amazingly enough the forms I developed are still used, and I'd guess > the back end code as well. Not bad for 25 years. http://cs-ems.ieee.org/ > > I left the Computer Society in 2000 after that complete fuckage > takeover trick by Daniel Senese from the IEEE. Since then they haven't > done much of a thing to support either computing or technology. > Innovation there pretty much died... > > The fact that they would use a non-standard, monopoly, proprietary, > privacy stealing email solution is just not a surprise at all. > > Ah well, things happen. We did have an amazing run there for 6 years > but all good things.... > > CZ > > On 12/29/2020 10:07 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >> The IEEE also uses google! >> >> One of my NetBSD correspondents simply blocks all mail from google >> servers on his system! >> >> cheers, >> >> Nigel >> >> >> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >> Skype:? TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org >> >> >> >> On 2020-12-29 10:04 a.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>>> Google has more resources than me. How about they update their >>>> systems to >>>> match Internet email standards? >>> >>> The big problem isn't google doing it: They can do whatever they want. >>> >>> The problem comes when state and local governments switch to google >>> mail services and now your constituents can no longer contact their >>> govt officials. This happens here and it is *extremely* annoying. >>> >>> CZ From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Dec 29 10:23:13 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 11:23:13 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <65d4a999-1843-f18c-a424-4a6ee63a5b26@alembic.crystel.com> <4c5167a7-66ce-62d9-a4aa-cfbd1f418728@ieee.org> <5831ce0b-6294-3f00-7a80-83f3bbab005f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: > My original email alias was from computer.org.? Then I got a mysterious > email saying that they were no longer going to offer computer.org email > aliases, so I switched to ieee.org. Really? When did that happen, you should still be able to re-sign up for one using that link. Give it a try. > I had one site refuse to let me use my ieee.org email address to log on > since the initial request came from a google server!? He called it a > freemail account! That I can believe. Strangely enough when we built it we assumed that people would simply use the From: header as computer.org so they could get replies. However this breaks a lot of SPF obviously (because computer.org is not going to say they support coming from you) but spf didn't exist back then. Ah well. Still cool though. Let me know if it still works for you and if you have that message forward it to me off list. CZ > > Strange world we live in! > > cheers, > > NIgel > > IEEE member for 20+ years now - so I missed the computer society debacle > of which you speak. > > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 2020-12-29 10:43 a.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> You're kidding? I actually *wrote* the entire E-account, E-Alias, and >> E-commerce system used by the IEEE Computer Society back in 1995, and >> I keep my membership because of the mail forwarding to my home address. >> >> Amazingly enough the forms I developed are still used, and I'd guess >> the back end code as well. Not bad for 25 years. http://cs-ems.ieee.org/ >> >> I left the Computer Society in 2000 after that complete fuckage >> takeover trick by Daniel Senese from the IEEE. Since then they haven't >> done much of a thing to support either computing or technology. >> Innovation there pretty much died... >> >> The fact that they would use a non-standard, monopoly, proprietary, >> privacy stealing email solution is just not a surprise at all. >> >> Ah well, things happen. We did have an amazing run there for 6 years >> but all good things.... >> >> CZ >> >> On 12/29/2020 10:07 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >>> The IEEE also uses google! >>> >>> One of my NetBSD correspondents simply blocks all mail from google >>> servers on his system! >>> >>> cheers, >>> >>> Nigel >>> >>> >>> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >>> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >>> Skype:? TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2020-12-29 10:04 a.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Google has more resources than me. How about they update their >>>>> systems to >>>>> match Internet email standards? >>>> >>>> The big problem isn't google doing it: They can do whatever they want. >>>> >>>> The problem comes when state and local governments switch to google >>>> mail services and now your constituents can no longer contact their >>>> govt officials. This happens here and it is *extremely* annoying. >>>> >>>> CZ From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Dec 29 10:25:13 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 11:25:13 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <01RTR4SK42ME8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RTR4SK42ME8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <8cf1ccb7-a55a-9af3-fb3a-7295a7ad0969@alembic.crystel.com> > Google need to review their motto and start living by it. Google ditched their "Don't be evil" motto a long long time ago. Now it's "what is best for google?". If google became a sentient AI (quite possible) it's a pretty damn selfish one. CZ From nw.johnson at ieee.org Tue Dec 29 10:53:01 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 11:53:01 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <65d4a999-1843-f18c-a424-4a6ee63a5b26@alembic.crystel.com> <4c5167a7-66ce-62d9-a4aa-cfbd1f418728@ieee.org> <5831ce0b-6294-3f00-7a80-83f3bbab005f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <80168ec9-a760-7a05-ffff-968ed4d28de9@ieee.org> Yes, I know.? I have an email from 2005 saying that I was forced to give it up 'a few years ago' with them saying they were being discontinued, but don't have the original email.? I lost some stuff when I converted from Eudora to Thunderbird.? However I dropped my membership of the computer society and printed the ieee address on all my cards, so didn't go back. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2020-12-29 11:23 a.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> My original email alias was from computer.org.? Then I got a mysterious >> email saying that they were no longer going to offer computer.org email >> aliases, so I switched to ieee.org. > > Really? When did that happen, you should still be able to re-sign up > for one using that link. Give it a try. > >> I had one site refuse to let me use my ieee.org email address to log on >> since the initial request came from a google server!? He called it a >> freemail account! > > That I can believe. Strangely enough when we built it we assumed that > people would simply use the From: header as computer.org so they could > get replies. However this breaks a lot of SPF obviously (because > computer.org is not going to say they support coming from you) but spf > didn't exist back then. > > Ah well. Still cool though. Let me know if it still works for you and > if you have that message forward it to me off list. > > CZ > >> >> Strange world we live in! >> >> cheers, >> >> NIgel >> >> IEEE member for 20+ years now - so I missed the computer society debacle >> of which you speak. >> >> >> >> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >> Skype:? TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org >> >> >> >> On 2020-12-29 10:43 a.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>> You're kidding? I actually *wrote* the entire E-account, E-Alias, and >>> E-commerce system used by the IEEE Computer Society back in 1995, and >>> I keep my membership because of the mail forwarding to my home address. >>> >>> Amazingly enough the forms I developed are still used, and I'd guess >>> the back end code as well. Not bad for 25 years. >>> http://cs-ems.ieee.org/ >>> >>> I left the Computer Society in 2000 after that complete fuckage >>> takeover trick by Daniel Senese from the IEEE. Since then they haven't >>> done much of a thing to support either computing or technology. >>> Innovation there pretty much died... >>> >>> The fact that they would use a non-standard, monopoly, proprietary, >>> privacy stealing email solution is just not a surprise at all. >>> >>> Ah well, things happen. We did have an amazing run there for 6 years >>> but all good things.... >>> >>> CZ >>> >>> On 12/29/2020 10:07 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >>>> The IEEE also uses google! >>>> >>>> One of my NetBSD correspondents simply blocks all mail from google >>>> servers on his system! >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> >>>> Nigel >>>> >>>> >>>> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >>>> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >>>> Skype:? TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2020-12-29 10:04 a.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> Google has more resources than me. How about they update their >>>>>> systems to >>>>>> match Internet email standards? >>>>> >>>>> The big problem isn't google doing it: They can do whatever they >>>>> want. >>>>> >>>>> The problem comes when state and local governments switch to google >>>>> mail services and now your constituents can no longer contact their >>>>> govt officials. This happens here and it is *extremely* annoying. >>>>> >>>>> CZ From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 19:23:03 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:23:03 -0800 Subject: ISO: TI 980 (not 980A or 980B) Hardware docs Message-ID: Hey all -- A straight TI 980 (not one of the later 980A or 980B variants) appeared on my doorstep this afternoon. While well-shipped, the person I got it from decided to ship the boards and power supply separately from the chassis -- and unfortunately didn't document where anything goes. There is precious little information out there about the original 980 -- anyone sitting on any documentation? Anyone know someone who has one? (Anyone have any spare parts? The core memory boards & chassis are labeled well enough for me to see that I'm missing one of the "DA" boards...) Thanks, Josh From osi.superboard at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 03:51:55 2020 From: osi.superboard at gmail.com (osi.superboard) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 09:51:55 +0000 Subject: ISO: TI 980 (not 980A or 980B) Hardware docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0a2ac0e1-7214-0e45-1f3c-760b9a84146a@gmail.com> Hi Josh, maybe this helps https://pic2.avaluer.org/imgspic/a/r/k/m/r/-vintage_ti_980_ttl_based_minicomputer_w_1103_ram_boards_texas_instruments-3_27.jpg Thomas Am 30.12.2020 um 01:23 schrieb Josh Dersch via cctalk: > Hey all -- > > A straight TI 980 (not one of the later 980A or 980B variants) appeared on > my doorstep this afternoon. While well-shipped, the person I got it from > decided to ship the boards and power supply separately from the chassis -- > and unfortunately didn't document where anything goes. > > There is precious little information out there about the original 980 -- > anyone sitting on any documentation? Anyone know someone who has one? > (Anyone have any spare parts? The core memory boards & chassis are labeled > well enough for me to see that I'm missing one of the "DA" boards...) > > Thanks, > Josh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 04:07:13 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 05:07:13 -0500 Subject: ISO: TI 980 (not 980A or 980B) Hardware docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 8:23 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > A straight TI 980 (not one of the later 980A or 980B variants) appeared on > my doorstep this afternoon. Interesting. Unfortunately, I have no docs (outside of what's on Bitsavers). Mine is the later 980A variety, FWIW, with fat TI4060 DRAMs not core. I only recently got a console key for it. > (Anyone have any spare parts? The core memory boards & chassis are labeled > well enough for me to see that I'm missing one of the "DA" boards...) The only spare parts would be some memory boards. I'll have to pull them out and check them, but definitely DRAM and I think 8K or 24K capacity, and I have no idea if they work on all variants or just specific models. No spare I/O or CPU boards. I was just glancing over at the docs on Bitsavers to see what it might take to write a memory tester to toggle in. Nothing exhaustive just simple write-read-compare testing. I know nothing of the architecture so even that would take me a bit to figure out. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ti/980/ -ethan From tomas at basun.net Wed Dec 30 04:32:04 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 11:32:04 +0100 Subject: Omnibook 300 error code Message-ID: <874kk3twij.wl-tomas@basun.net> Hi all, Does anybody here know what "8041 Error: did not respond to 0AAH command" might mean? (p. 70 in the HP OmniBook 300, 425, 430, 530 Service Manual) /Tomas From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 30 05:19:38 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 06:19:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-8 memory card on eBay? Message-ID: <20201230111938.A613E18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Anyone recognize this card: https://www.ebay.com/itm/313323417718 I looked, and it doesn't seem to be any of those for a PDP-11. However, I see the DRAM array is 12x4 chips, which makes me think it might be for a PDP-8? Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 30 05:36:39 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 03:36:39 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 memory card on eBay? In-Reply-To: <20201230111938.A613E18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201230111938.A613E18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 12/30/20 3:19 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Anyone recognize this card: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/313323417718 > > I looked, and it doesn't seem to be any of those for a PDP-11. However, I > see the DRAM array is 12x4 chips, which makes me think it might be for a > PDP-8? > > Noel > it's a 32k 8a memory board From rtomek at ceti.pl Wed Dec 30 08:41:28 2020 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 15:41:28 +0100 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <8cf1ccb7-a55a-9af3-fb3a-7295a7ad0969@alembic.crystel.com> References: <01RTR4SK42ME8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> <8cf1ccb7-a55a-9af3-fb3a-7295a7ad0969@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <20201230144128.GB21630@tau1.ceti.pl> On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 11:25:13AM -0500, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >Google need to review their motto and start living by it. > > Google ditched their "Don't be evil" motto a long long time ago. Now > it's "what is best for google?". Well, I do not think goog needs to do anything other than what a business is supposed to be doing, i.e. money, by whatever means the law permits. Like, making ear catching motto to suck in all good-but-naive devs from the market and in such way deny them to other businesses. > If google became a sentient AI (quite possible) it's a pretty damn > selfish one. Of course. It makes trouble to other net users and tries to preserve itself by hiding complaints. Life would be easier for it if it actually tried to imitate poorly working spam catcher. Now imagine that there is no "off switch". It can only be persuaded by sending email to it, but since nobody knows the address, the only way is to actually send spammy messages to other people... on gmail... -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 09:13:40 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 10:13:40 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <20201230144128.GB21630@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <01RTR4SK42ME8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> <8cf1ccb7-a55a-9af3-fb3a-7295a7ad0969@alembic.crystel.com> <20201230144128.GB21630@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: > > Of course. It makes trouble to other net users and tries to preserve > itself by hiding complaints. Life would be easier for it if it > actually tried to imitate poorly working spam catcher. > > Now imagine that there is no "off switch". It can only be persuaded by > sending email to it, but since nobody knows the address, the only way > is to actually send spammy messages to other people... on gmail... > > -- > Attempting to pull in this thread a tad, there are relatively simple measures that can be taken to bring a private mail server into compliance with gmail, Amazon, Microsoft level mail server protocol and authentication. Its not just gmail. The simplest measures are done with DNS and TLS. Most of the mail that I see routinely falling into spam folder is from what appears to be spoofed domains. Many of these are legit messages that dont have a properly configured DNS record, preventing the receiving server from authenticating the FROM domain as owned by the sender. A simple fix. Bill > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Dec 30 09:18:56 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 10:18:56 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <01RTR4SK42ME8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> <8cf1ccb7-a55a-9af3-fb3a-7295a7ad0969@alembic.crystel.com> <20201230144128.GB21630@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <9e97b82e-1c7d-f630-0f88-b1a7db96b20b@alembic.crystel.com> > Attempting to pull in this thread a tad, there are relatively simple > measures that can be taken to bring a private mail server into compliance > with gmail, Amazon, Microsoft level mail server protocol and > authentication. Its not just gmail. The simplest measures are done with > DNS and TLS. Most of the mail that I see routinely falling into spam > folder is from what appears to be spoofed domains. Many of these are legit > messages that dont have a properly configured DNS record, preventing the > receiving server from authenticating the FROM domain as owned by the > sender. A simple fix. Well, even with proper DKIM mail and SPF records, Google still sometimes shafts my mail. No idea why, no one to talk to on how to make it better, no options other than "Get a Google mail account". Life like that. From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Wed Dec 30 09:53:08 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 09:53:08 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 memory card on eBay? In-Reply-To: References: <20201230111938.A613E18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 12/30/2020 5:36 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 12/30/20 3:19 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> Anyone recognize this card: >> >> ??? https://www.ebay.com/itm/313323417718 >> >> I looked, and it doesn't seem to be any of those for a PDP-11. However, I >> see the DRAM array is 12x4 chips, which makes me think it might be for a >> PDP-8? >> >> ?????? Noel >> > > it's a 32k 8a memory board > If it helps, when you zoom in on the red card it says MS8-CA.? Looks like the listing has ended but no buyer. -- John H. Reinhardt From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 10:00:13 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 11:00:13 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <9e97b82e-1c7d-f630-0f88-b1a7db96b20b@alembic.crystel.com> References: <01RTR4SK42ME8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> <8cf1ccb7-a55a-9af3-fb3a-7295a7ad0969@alembic.crystel.com> <20201230144128.GB21630@tau1.ceti.pl> <9e97b82e-1c7d-f630-0f88-b1a7db96b20b@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 10:19 AM Chris Zach via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Attempting to pull in this thread a tad, there are relatively simple > > measures that can be taken to bring a private mail server into compliance > > with gmail, Amazon, Microsoft level mail server protocol and > > authentication. Its not just gmail. The simplest measures are done with > > DNS and TLS. Most of the mail that I see routinely falling into spam > > folder is from what appears to be spoofed domains. Many of these are > legit > > messages that dont have a properly configured DNS record, preventing the > > receiving server from authenticating the FROM domain as owned by the > > sender. A simple fix. > > Well, even with proper DKIM mail and SPF records, Google still sometimes > shafts my mail. No idea why, no one to talk to on how to make it better, > no options other than "Get a Google mail account". > > Life like that. > There are some pretty good email test utilities on the web. A test email is sent to the utility and results as to what's good/bad are returned with suggested remediation. Bill From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Dec 30 10:35:20 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 17:35:20 +0100 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <01RTR4SK42ME8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> <8cf1ccb7-a55a-9af3-fb3a-7295a7ad0969@alembic.crystel.com> <20201230144128.GB21630@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 10:13:40AM -0500, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: [...] > Attempting to pull in this thread a tad, there are relatively simple > measures that can be taken to bring a private mail server into compliance > with gmail, Amazon, Microsoft level mail server protocol and > authentication. You have failed to explain why I should make any effort at all to jump through random hoops set up by FAANG which seem to change on a weekly basis and where doing so offers no guarantee of success. > Its not just gmail. The simplest measures are done with DNS and TLS. Most > of the mail that I see routinely falling into spam folder is from what > appears to be spoofed domains. Many of these are legit messages ... so therefore they are not actually spoofed. > [...] that dont have a properly configured DNS record, I already have properly-configured DNS for mail: an MX record. > preventing the receiving server from authenticating the FROM domain as > owned by the sender. SMTP is an unauthenticated protocol. Further, the futile attempts to bodge authentication on to it with the likes of SPF and DKIM do not actually help at all with spam. Until I just added them to my blacklist of pink providers whose mail is unconditionally rejected, Google was quite happy to unleash a firehose of spam at my server, all nicely DKIM-signed to tell me it came from Google like I couldn't have already figured that out from the IP address. > A simple fix. So, what simple fix is this? SPF is extremely broken by design. The only useful configuration is a short PASS list of valid-sender IP addresses and a FAIL of everything else (e.g. "v=spf1 ip4:10.20.30.40 a -all"). This requires ensuring that you can chokepoint all mail through those hosts, which is not always easy to arrange. DKIM attempts to "fix" SPF by adding cryptography, thus adding rather a lot of extra complexity and CPU usage. This means that classic computers can no longer send email, because they don't have enough grunt to overcome this artificial barrier. It makes mail rather brittle and tends to break mailing lists in an even more spectacular manner than SPF. Just to liven things up a bit, DKIM is also patent-encumbered. Then there's ARC which attempts to mitigate various deliverability problems caused by DKIM making mail more brittle. No doubt further layers of gaffer tape will follow when that breaks something. And to what end? So the odds of a hypothetical message sent to a GMail user ending up in their spam folder drops from 99% to 98%? Here's a nickel kid, get yourself a better mail provider. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Dec 30 10:03:47 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 16:03:47 +0000 (WET) Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <01RTR4SK42ME8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> <8cf1ccb7-a55a-9af3-fb3a-7295a7ad0969@alembic.crystel.com> <20201230144128.GB21630@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <01RTSLPRF88Y8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> > > Attempting to pull in this thread a tad, there are relatively simple > measures that can be taken to bring a private mail server into compliance > with gmail, Amazon, Microsoft level mail server protocol and > authentication. Its not just gmail. The simplest measures are done with > DNS and TLS. Most of the mail that I see routinely falling into spam > folder is from what appears to be spoofed domains. Many of these are legit > messages that dont have a properly configured DNS record, preventing the > receiving server from authenticating the FROM domain as owned by the > sender. A simple fix. > Bill, As I said, I don't have problems sending mail to Amazon, Microsoft or any of the large (or small) email providers except for gmail.com and other Google email services. It really is just Google. I do have DNS properly configured, SPF in place and no TLS. I can't be bothered setting up TLS just to be able to talk to Google when others report that they still can't get through to Google even when they have TLS. Not only do Google not tell me why they will not deliver my emails to their customers, they don't tell their customers why they block non-spam emails that they want to receive either. The most a Google customer has ever been able to pass on to me that Google given them by way of explaination was something like: "This mail was tagged as spam because messages similar to it were spam" which of course is complete nonsense. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Dec 30 12:30:55 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 11:30:55 -0700 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <01RTR4SK42ME8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> <8cf1ccb7-a55a-9af3-fb3a-7295a7ad0969@alembic.crystel.com> <20201230144128.GB21630@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On 12/30/20 9:35 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > This means that classic computers can no longer send email, because > they don't have enough grunt to overcome this artificial barrier. That's not true. You don't have to do the cryptographic heavy lifting on the classic computer. You can easily do the cryptographic heavy lifting on other more contemporary computers which are used as a smart host for the classic computers. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 12:51:03 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 10:51:03 -0800 Subject: ISO: TI 980 (not 980A or 980B) Hardware docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 2:07 AM Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 8:23 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk > wrote: > > A straight TI 980 (not one of the later 980A or 980B variants) appeared > on > > my doorstep this afternoon. > > Interesting. Unfortunately, I have no docs (outside of what's on > Bitsavers). > > Mine is the later 980A variety, FWIW, with fat TI4060 DRAMs not core. > I only recently got a console key for it. > > > (Anyone have any spare parts? The core memory boards & chassis are > labeled > > well enough for me to see that I'm missing one of the "DA" boards...) > > The only spare parts would be some memory boards. I'll have to pull > them out and check them, but definitely DRAM and I think 8K or 24K > capacity, and I have no idea if they work on all variants or just > specific models. No spare I/O or CPU boards. > I'd be interested to see pictures of the card cages. I know what a 980B looks like and it's a significant revision from the 980 I have here -- the CPU is condensed from 13 or 14 boards down to four or so. I haven't been able to find a picture of the 980A's insides, curious to know how it differs. > > I was just glancing over at the docs on Bitsavers to see what it might > take to write a memory tester to toggle in. Nothing exhaustive just > simple write-read-compare testing. I know nothing of the architecture > so even that would take me a bit to figure out. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ti/980/ Somewhere I have a couple of very short programs I hand-assembled to test out my 980B, I'll see if I can't dig them up... I suspect I left them on my old laptop. Thanks, - Josh > > > -ethan > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 30 12:55:11 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 10:55:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <01RTR4SK42ME8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> <8cf1ccb7-a55a-9af3-fb3a-7295a7ad0969@alembic.crystel.com> <20201230144128.GB21630@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Dec 2020, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > That's not true. > You don't have to do the cryptographic heavy lifting on the classic computer. > You can easily do the cryptographic heavy lifting on other more contemporary > computers which are used as a smart host for the classic computers. So, you do have to use "modern" computers, although you could then connect classic computers to your "modern" computers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 12:55:30 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 13:55:30 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <01RTR4SK42ME8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> <8cf1ccb7-a55a-9af3-fb3a-7295a7ad0969@alembic.crystel.com> <20201230144128.GB21630@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 10:13:40AM -0500, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > [...] > > Attempting to pull in this thread a tad, there are relatively simple > > measures that can be taken to bring a private mail server into compliance > > with gmail, Amazon, Microsoft level mail server protocol and > > authentication. > > You have failed to explain why I should make any effort at all to jump > through random hoops set up by FAANG which seem to change on a weekly basis > and where doing so offers no guarantee of success. > > > Its not just gmail. The simplest measures are done with DNS and TLS. Most > > of the mail that I see routinely falling into spam folder is from what > > appears to be spoofed domains. Many of these are legit messages > > ... so therefore they are not actually spoofed. > > > [...] that dont have a properly configured DNS record, > > I already have properly-configured DNS for mail: an MX record. > > > preventing the receiving server from authenticating the FROM domain as > > owned by the sender. > > SMTP is an unauthenticated protocol. Further, the futile attempts to bodge > authentication on to it with the likes of SPF and DKIM do not actually help > at all with spam. Until I just added them to my blacklist of pink providers > whose mail is unconditionally rejected, Google was quite happy to unleash a > firehose of spam at my server, all nicely DKIM-signed to tell me it came > from Google like I couldn't have already figured that out from the IP > address. > > > A simple fix. > > So, what simple fix is this? > > SPF is extremely broken by design. The only useful configuration is a short > PASS list of valid-sender IP addresses and a FAIL of everything else (e.g. > "v=spf1 ip4:10.20.30.40 a -all"). This requires ensuring that you can > chokepoint all mail through those hosts, which is not always easy to > arrange. > > DKIM attempts to "fix" SPF by adding cryptography, thus adding rather a lot > of extra complexity and CPU usage. This means that classic computers can no > longer send email, because they don't have enough grunt to overcome this > artificial barrier. It makes mail rather brittle and tends to break mailing > lists in an even more spectacular manner than SPF. Just to liven things up > a > bit, DKIM is also patent-encumbered. > > Then there's ARC which attempts to mitigate various deliverability problems > caused by DKIM making mail more brittle. No doubt further layers of gaffer > tape will follow when that breaks something. > > And to what end? So the odds of a hypothetical message sent to a GMail user > ending up in their spam folder drops from 99% to 98%? Here's a nickel kid, > get yourself a better mail provider. > > I did not expect everyone to agree with me, I just wanted to point out that the same few domains keep ending up in the SPAM folder of gmail. Here is a useful article that explains some of the issues and how to tackle them. Ignore for whatever reason and your messages are lost. More people use gmail than any other mail platform. In ones' younger years technical challenges are met with less abstinence. It's hard to keep up with the times but the times they are a changing. https://support.google.com/mail/answer/6330403?visit_id=637449510555239983-3774052171&p=tls&hl=en&rd=1 Don't shoot the messenger :-) BIll From cym224 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 14:26:23 2020 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 15:26:23 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <01RTR4SK42ME8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> <8cf1ccb7-a55a-9af3-fb3a-7295a7ad0969@alembic.crystel.com> <20201230144128.GB21630@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <7f75f01d-681c-5884-08c8-9fd52172ddfb@gmail.com> On 12/30/20 13:55, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 30 Dec 2020, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> That's not true. >> You don't have to do the cryptographic heavy lifting on the classic >> computer. You can easily do the cryptographic heavy lifting on other >> more contemporary computers which are used as a smart host for the >> classic computers. > > So, you do have to use "modern" computers, although you could then > connect classic computers to your "modern" computers. RFC 6376 mentions a low default bar of RSA512 but one could use libressl, which builds on less powerful computers. N. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 30 17:35:59 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 15:35:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <01RTSLPRF88Y8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> from Peter Coghlan via cctalk at "Dec 30, 20 04:03:47 pm" Message-ID: <202012302335.0BUNZxbY6750274@floodgap.com> > As I said, I don't have problems sending mail to Amazon, Microsoft or any of > the large (or small) email providers except for gmail.com and other Google > email services. It really is just Google. I do have DNS properly configured, > SPF in place and no TLS. I can't be bothered setting up TLS just to be able > to talk to Google when others report that they still can't get through to > Google even when they have TLS. > > Not only do Google not tell me why they will not deliver my emails to their > customers, they don't tell their customers why they block non-spam emails > that they want to receive either. The most a Google customer has ever been > able to pass on to me that Google given them by way of explaination was > something like: > > "This mail was tagged as spam because messages similar to it were spam" > > which of course is complete nonsense. And just to add on a data point (Bill, I know you're not the enemy here), one of my personally-maintained mail servers does TLS and the other doesn't, I do have proper reverse DNS but used not to, and while I have SPF I've never done DKIM, and I've never had any trouble getting mail to Gmail. The only conclusion I can draw is that Google is arbitrary and doesn't care and I'm one of the rare beneficiaries of their arbitrariness. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Roger Waters, orthopaedist: "Hey! Careful with your back, Eugene!" --------- From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Dec 30 17:54:34 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 16:54:34 -0700 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <202012302335.0BUNZxbY6750274@floodgap.com> References: <202012302335.0BUNZxbY6750274@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <2050a31a-325f-91ba-2ba9-01b5d2f782bb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/30/20 4:35 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > The only conclusion I can draw is that Google is arbitrary and doesn't > care and I'm one of the rare beneficiaries of their arbitrariness. I'm quite convinced that Google isn't arbitrary. It's just that there are a LOT more variables in play than we know about, much less have control over. Including historical indicators that no longer reflect current values of the same indicators. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Dec 30 18:30:17 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 19:30:17 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <202012302335.0BUNZxbY6750274@floodgap.com> References: <202012302335.0BUNZxbY6750274@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5ad6837f-5423-932b-2d7b-1260c6938d23@alembic.crystel.com> > And just to add on a data point (Bill, I know you're not the enemy here), one > of my personally-maintained mail servers does TLS and the other doesn't, I do > have proper reverse DNS but used not to, and while I have SPF I've never done > DKIM, and I've never had any trouble getting mail to Gmail. Right. SPF is every bit as good as DKIM, the advantage of DKIM is you can use random servers as long as you sign your messages. Since I am small and run my own mail server, SPF is totally fine and can "prove" that I authorized the email. That's why either is fine for DMARC. But even with that and TLS encryption Google sometimes fucks with me. As I said, since our Govt is using it the result is I am locked out of the legislative process. Google. Well their goal is to make max money. If that screws people over then oh well. But in the meantime setting up SPF/DMARC and TLS on your mail server will fix most problems. Doing SPF checks on email also will cut down on your spam from "Big name" domains. And the reports you get back showing how many fails you have because shit-bags in Russia are trying to spoof your From: will tell you how sad it is out there. CZ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 30 19:01:04 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 17:01:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <2050a31a-325f-91ba-2ba9-01b5d2f782bb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> from Grant Taylor via cctalk at "Dec 30, 20 04:54:34 pm" Message-ID: <202012310101.0BV1144o19923012@floodgap.com> > > The only conclusion I can draw is that Google is arbitrary and doesn't > > care and I'm one of the rare beneficiaries of their arbitrariness. > > I'm quite convinced that Google isn't arbitrary. It's just that there > are a LOT more variables in play than we know about, much less have > control over. Including historical indicators that no longer reflect > current values of the same indicators. Maybe. Floodgap.com has been a domain since 2000. But I know of well-maintained mail servers older than that which Google drops on the floor. They haven't changed, and they're older than I am. It really sucks. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- How could we lose when we were so sincere? -- Charlie Brown ---------------- From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 01:22:08 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 23:22:08 -0800 Subject: ISO: TI 980 (not 980A or 980B) Hardware docs In-Reply-To: <0a2ac0e1-7214-0e45-1f3c-760b9a84146a@gmail.com> References: <0a2ac0e1-7214-0e45-1f3c-760b9a84146a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 1:53 AM osi.superboard via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Josh, > > maybe this helps > > > https://pic2.avaluer.org/imgspic/a/r/k/m/r/-vintage_ti_980_ttl_based_minicomputer_w_1103_ram_boards_texas_instruments-3_27.jpg Thanks. That looks like a 980B to me. Here's a couple of pictures of what I have (note that the boards are placed mostly randomly right now, just for safekeeping): https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMpJFO9udIaPHKbzS5bg?e=L7RxCk - Josh > > > Thomas > > Am 30.12.2020 um 01:23 schrieb Josh Dersch via cctalk: > > Hey all -- > > > > A straight TI 980 (not one of the later 980A or 980B variants) appeared > on > > my doorstep this afternoon. While well-shipped, the person I got it from > > decided to ship the boards and power supply separately from the chassis > -- > > and unfortunately didn't document where anything goes. > > > > There is precious little information out there about the original 980 -- > > anyone sitting on any documentation? Anyone know someone who has one? > > (Anyone have any spare parts? The core memory boards & chassis are > labeled > > well enough for me to see that I'm missing one of the "DA" boards...) > > > > Thanks, > > Josh > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 05:17:08 2020 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 11:17:08 +0000 Subject: Zerox System 60 Message-ID: <86E9AF36-6E76-4CB8-9715-D85D19249004@gmail.com> Hello folks, I?ll get the ?happy new year? in now because later on I?ll probably be in bed :) Does anyone remember the Zerox System 60? There?s an ebay listing for one and a friend of mine says the PC shop he worked for back in the 90s had a bunch of them but no info could be found then or now. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Apple-II-with-extras-disk-drives-graphics-tablet-Xerox/164616695482 Cheers, -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 05:42:44 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 11:42:44 -0000 Subject: Zerox System 60 In-Reply-To: <86E9AF36-6E76-4CB8-9715-D85D19249004@gmail.com> References: <86E9AF36-6E76-4CB8-9715-D85D19249004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <011101d6df6a$0df2c630$29d85290$@gmail.com> I see P&P labels and I remember driving past P&P in Haslington many times in the past, and even visiting once or twice for odd bits and pieces. Odd such places are now long gone. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Adrian Graham > via cctalk > Sent: 31 December 2020 11:17 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Zerox System 60 > > Hello folks, > > I?ll get the ?happy new year? in now because later on I?ll probably be in bed :) > > Does anyone remember the Zerox System 60? There?s an ebay listing for one > and a friend of mine says the PC shop he worked for back in the 90s had a > bunch of them but no info could be found then or now. > > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Apple-II-with-extras-disk-drives-graphics- > tablet-Xerox/164616695482 extras-disk-drives-graphics-tablet-Xerox/164616695482> > > Cheers, > > -- > Adrian Graham > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > > > > From als at thangorodrim.ch Thu Dec 31 10:35:46 2020 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 17:35:46 +0100 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <9e97b82e-1c7d-f630-0f88-b1a7db96b20b@alembic.crystel.com> References: <01RTR4SK42ME8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> <8cf1ccb7-a55a-9af3-fb3a-7295a7ad0969@alembic.crystel.com> <20201230144128.GB21630@tau1.ceti.pl> <9e97b82e-1c7d-f630-0f88-b1a7db96b20b@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <20201231163545.GA21670@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 10:18:56AM -0500, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Attempting to pull in this thread a tad, there are relatively simple > > measures that can be taken to bring a private mail server into compliance > > with gmail, Amazon, Microsoft level mail server protocol and > > authentication. Its not just gmail. The simplest measures are done with > > DNS and TLS. Most of the mail that I see routinely falling into spam > > folder is from what appears to be spoofed domains. Many of these are legit > > messages that dont have a properly configured DNS record, preventing the > > receiving server from authenticating the FROM domain as owned by the > > sender. A simple fix. > > Well, even with proper DKIM mail and SPF records, Google still sometimes > shafts my mail. No idea why, no one to talk to on how to make it better, no > options other than "Get a Google mail account". Why not both? I run my own mailserver which handles most of my email (both incoming and outgoing) and I have a GMail account, mostly for the GSuite, calendar and such. There is one mailing list that I forward via procmail from my private email to my GMail account (for reading on the go) and that works - so far, about 2-4 mails from that setup ended up tagged as spam this year (out of several mails per day, so while annoying, that is below the noise threshold). My mailserver has SPF records and TLS enabled for ... ages. I couldn't be bothered to setup DKIM yet. The only problems I had was when I was responding to an email from someone using hotmail and hotmail refused my reply ... well, I probably don't want to talk to Hotmail users anyway. ?\_(?)_/? Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Dec 31 14:20:07 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 15:20:07 -0500 Subject: Hey, I got a Perq_T2 image!!! Message-ID: <8aeb4476-65d9-d466-9c6c-d0bb5708cc0b@alembic.crystel.com> Well, after waiting almost a month for the USPS to deliver a "Priority Mail 1 day" package from Dave I now have the MFM reader card. So I started working on these disks I rescued. First up was a ST506 (labelled "RD50" by DEC) and a pair of ST412's. Bad news: No drives spun up Good news: You can take the controller board off the drives and spin the spindles by hand. Better news: The spindles spun (clockwise, viewed from bottom) Best news: spinning while powering on got all three to spin up. So far I imaged the RD50 (possibly a Rainbow or a Pro/350) and one of the ST412's. It came up as a PERQ_T2 format and I have two dumps of the disk with only one bad sector reported. Anyone know what to do with this kind of image? I've powered down the drives and will store them till I can figure out how to make them run more quietly.... C From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 14:34:24 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 12:34:24 -0800 Subject: Hey, I got a Perq_T2 image!!! In-Reply-To: <8aeb4476-65d9-d466-9c6c-d0bb5708cc0b@alembic.crystel.com> References: <8aeb4476-65d9-d466-9c6c-d0bb5708cc0b@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 12:20 PM Chris Zach via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Well, after waiting almost a month for the USPS to deliver a "Priority > Mail 1 day" package from Dave I now have the MFM reader card. So I > started working on these disks I rescued. First up was a ST506 (labelled > "RD50" by DEC) and a pair of ST412's. > > Bad news: No drives spun up > Good news: You can take the controller board off the drives and spin the > spindles by hand. > Better news: The spindles spun (clockwise, viewed from bottom) > Best news: spinning while powering on got all three to spin up. > Congrats! > So far I imaged the RD50 (possibly a Rainbow or a Pro/350) and one of > the ST412's. It came up as a PERQ_T2 format and I have two dumps of the > disk with only one bad sector reported. > > Anyone know what to do with this kind of image? I've powered down the > drives and will store them till I can figure out how to make them run > more quietly.... > I'd love a copy of the T2 image, and if it has POS filesystems on it I should be able to extract files. Regardless I should be able to boot it on my T2 to find out what's on it... - Josh > > C > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 31 14:48:48 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 15:48:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC part number system Message-ID: <20201231204848.5913D18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, DEC part numbers (xx-yyyyy-zz) have a system where the 'xx' says what _kind_ of part it is; e.g. bootstrap PROMs are all 23-xxxxx-yy. I seem to recall reading at some point something which listed all the xx- codes, and what they meant - but now I can't find it. A Web search didn't turn it up, and it's not in the 1974 'engineering handbook'? Does anyone recall seeing it, and if so, where? Obviously, I could look through a bunch of print sets, and reconstruct it (e.g. 90- seems to mean mounting hardware - nuts and bolts, etc) but I'd rather not put the time and energy into reconstructing the wheel, unless there's no other way. Noel From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 31 16:58:24 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 22:58:24 +0000 Subject: DEC part number system In-Reply-To: <20201231204848.5913D18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201231204848.5913D18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 31/12/2020 20:48, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So, DEC part numbers (xx-yyyyy-zz) have a system where the 'xx' says what > _kind_ of part it is; e.g. bootstrap PROMs are all 23-xxxxx-yy. I seem to > recall reading at some point something which listed all the xx- codes, and > what they meant - but now I can't find it. A Web search didn't turn it up, and > it's not in the 1974 'engineering handbook'? > > Does anyone recall seeing it, and if so, where? > > Obviously, I could look through a bunch of print sets, and reconstruct it > (e.g. 90- seems to mean mounting hardware - nuts and bolts, etc) but I'd > rather not put the time and energy into reconstructing the wheel, unless > there's no other way. > > Noel > I thought that there was something at the beginning of the Options and Modules List (aka the "Dick best List") but seemingly not. It was (iirc) described in DEC STD 012 (the part numbering standard) but I don't seem to have that one handy. If you can find it it should contain everything you want. I do have (or did have) a DEC STDs CD at one point, but my copy of that seems to be missing DEC STD 012. There are plenty of DEC STD docs that would rate considerably higher on the "confidential" scale than this one and they are freely available, so I've no idea why this one might be missing. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Thu Dec 31 17:19:28 2020 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 15:19:28 -0800 Subject: DEC part number system In-Reply-To: <20201231204848.5913D18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201231204848.5913D18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1106e2f3-e540-289d-22dc-2a6fb8e83aa2@frontier.com> On 12/31/2020 12:48 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So, DEC part numbers (xx-yyyyy-zz) have a system where the 'xx' says what > _kind_ of part it is; e.g. bootstrap PROMs are all 23-xxxxx-yy. I seem to > recall reading at some point something which listed all the xx- codes, and > what they meant - but now I can't find it. A Web search didn't turn it up, and > it's not in the 1974 'engineering handbook'? > > Does anyone recall seeing it, and if so, where? I knew I had the documents, but I couldn't figure out where I originally got them. (They seem to have been converted from TIFF, so maybe highgate?) Anyway, the "Spare Parts List" links on this page are relevant: http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/subst.php > Obviously, I could look through a bunch of print sets, and reconstruct it > (e.g. 90- seems to mean mounting hardware - nuts and bolts, etc) but I'd > rather not put the time and energy into reconstructing the wheel, unless > there's no other way. These documents are dated July and Sept. 1970, so you may well want to do that work anyway, to get a handle on the newer part numbers. Vince From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 18:00:16 2020 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 19:00:16 -0500 Subject: vtserver for geezer '11s Message-ID: Hi, I modified vtserver to work on pdp11/34 and similar - the older machines that have the 000000 000000 000000 000000 @ odt prompt. I'm afraid I didn't do a very thorough job (hack night and just wanted to get it working) and in retrospect I wish I would've made a conditional argument to put it in this mode. Perhaps we should collaborate on adding this properly and adding other desirable features like compression for incoming "all zero" blocks when pulling images in from real hardware, etc. It's here if you'd like to use it: https://github.com/jritorto/vtserver You can run it with ./a.out -odt to facilitate its talking to the pdp at power-on and loading its initial boot sequence via odt in octal. You have to run the primary bootstrap with L 140000 and S because I botched the parsing a bit in my rush to get things going. thx jake From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 31 18:38:26 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 19:38:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC part number system Message-ID: <20210101003826.3534B18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Antonio Carlini > It was (iirc) described in DEC STD 012 (the part numbering standard) ... > I do have (or did have) a DEC STDs CD at one point, but my copy of that > seems to be missing DEC STD 012. ... I've no idea why this one might be > missing. It looks like you already uploaded it to Manx: https://manx-docs.org/collections/antonio/dec/standards/el-00012-00-0000.pdf Looking though that led me to DEC STD 012-2 "Unified Numbering Code for Part Identifier Class Codes": https://manx-docs.org/collections/antonio/dec/standards/el-00012-02-0000.pdf which was exactly what I wanted. It's not the thing I remembered, but as DEC's official list, in some ways it's better (although it's so detailed it's kind of overkill :-)! > From: Vincent Slyngstad > the "Spare Parts List" links on this page are relevant: Volume II had a brief but early 'class code' list; I made good use of it. Thanks everone! Much appreciated! Noel From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Thu Dec 31 18:40:00 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 18:40:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: DEC part number system In-Reply-To: References: <20201231204848.5913D18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1935004550.959742.1609461600456@email.ionos.com> > > It was (iirc) described in DEC STD 012 (the part numbering standard) but > I don't seem to have that one handy. If you can find it it should > contain everything you want. I do have (or did have) a DEC STDs CD at > one point, but my copy of that seems to be missing DEC STD 012. There > are plenty of DEC STD docs that would rate considerably higher on the > "confidential" scale than this one and they are freely available, so > I've no idea why this one might be missing. > > > Antonio Maybe here? Beware the crud :( https://manualzz.com/doc/19854183/dec-std-012-1-documentation-identification-conventions-in... Will "A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new." -- Albert Einstein From mbbrutman at brutman.com Thu Dec 31 19:04:30 2020 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 17:04:30 -0800 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <20201231163545.GA21670@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <01RTR4SK42ME8ZFZ52@beyondthepale.ie> <8cf1ccb7-a55a-9af3-fb3a-7295a7ad0969@alembic.crystel.com> <20201230144128.GB21630@tau1.ceti.pl> <9e97b82e-1c7d-f630-0f88-b1a7db96b20b@alembic.crystel.com> <20201231163545.GA21670@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: It seems easier to bash Google than it is to debug the actual problems. I work at Google; not on Gmail but on things that many of you use daily. I don't believe my colleagues are trying to build market share by annoying specific users and dropping their mail. There are a lot of factors that need to be considered besides DKIM and SPF. Google has heuristics which are probably well justified with data, and it works for the vast majority of people. Here is a pretty good reference to help you start if you want to figure out why Gmail hates you: https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126 Mike From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 31 20:23:12 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 18:23:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: from Michael Brutman via cctalk at "Dec 31, 20 05:04:30 pm" Message-ID: <202101010223.1012ND8A16318624@floodgap.com> > It seems easier to bash Google than it is to debug the actual problems. I think this is an unfair characterization of the frustrations people have voiced. I agree individual engineers aren't out to get people with private mail servers, but: > There are a lot of factors that > need to be considered besides DKIM and SPF. Google has heuristics which > are probably well justified with data, and it works for the vast majority > of people. Stuff like the link you gave > https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126 aren't the problem. The problem is when you're doing all of that, and it doesn't work (i.e., you're not part of this "vast majority"). I don't find it reasonable to assume everyone who's voiced frustration with Gmail isn't doing everything in that list already. When you get to that point, after all that sweat and work, there's no one to communicate with to find out which part of that black box of heuristics is still getting its nose out of joint, and it doesn't serve Google's interest to put any bodies towards that sort of communication because it costs money and it's not their problem. Plus, well, the more people who need to communicate with a Gmail user, the path of least resistance is ... Gmail. That works out pretty well for Google. >From your view in the company, do you see an incentive on their end to work with folks like us? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Sleep, delicious and profound, the very counterfeit of death. -- Homer ----- From mbbrutman at brutman.com Thu Dec 31 21:43:12 2020 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 19:43:12 -0800 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <202101010223.1012ND8A16318624@floodgap.com> References: <202101010223.1012ND8A16318624@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Disclaimer: I don't speak for Google ... The thread shows a lot of Google bashing. Insinuating that Google makes it difficult so that people follow the path of least resistance is part of that. For years I had a non-Google backed email system and I did not have problems with sending or receiving from Gmail. I helped set up the Google Apps setup that VCFed.org is using, and we're not noticing any problems there or having actional reports of problems with email. I can't speculate what is going on with individual problems, but generally I believe with enough digging those problems can be understood and solved. Large corporations (Google included) are basically a scaling problem, especially when it comes to customer service. I think that's pretty obvious, and stories about YouTube problems and account access are legion. I don't have a solution that can be applied to the problems on this thread. My purpose in posting was to point out that this probably isn't a matter of market share or people forgetting not to be evil; it's a technical problem. Getting the configs right is the first step. Blacklists are also a problem, and clearly sometimes the filters being applied are wrong. We try to find and fix these things as they are brought to our attention. It took me less than a minute of searching to find this: https://support.google.com/mail/contact/bulk_send_new That's the form to contact the Gmail team for getting help with debugging your mail being marked as spam/phishing attempts, you get SMTP temp-fails or rejects, or other problems. (The search term was "problems sending email to gmail accounts" - go to the first link, follow the workflow, and assuming all of the preliminary answers to the questions are "I didn't do anything wrong" then you'll get a link to that contact form.) Mike On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:23 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > It seems easier to bash Google than it is to debug the actual problems. > > I think this is an unfair characterization of the frustrations people have > voiced. I agree individual engineers aren't out to get people with private > mail servers, but: > > > There are a lot of factors that > > need to be considered besides DKIM and SPF. Google has heuristics which > > are probably well justified with data, and it works for the vast majority > > of people. > > Stuff like the link you gave > > > https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126 > > aren't the problem. The problem is when you're doing all of that, and it > doesn't work (i.e., you're not part of this "vast majority"). I don't find > it reasonable to assume everyone who's voiced frustration with Gmail isn't > doing everything in that list already. When you get to that point, after > all > that sweat and work, there's no one to communicate with to find out which > part of that black box of heuristics is still getting its nose out of > joint, > and it doesn't serve Google's interest to put any bodies towards that sort > of communication because it costs money and it's not their problem. > > Plus, well, the more people who need to communicate with a Gmail user, the > path of least resistance is ... Gmail. That works out pretty well for > Google. > From your view in the company, do you see an incentive on their end to work > with folks like us? > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Sleep, delicious and profound, the very counterfeit of death. -- Homer > ----- >