From bear at typewritten.org Sat Aug 1 02:03:19 2020 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 00:03:19 -0700 Subject: Tallgrass PC hardfile driver/utility software Message-ID: <11E069C4-5A01-4E1B-875E-D36D13C5E738@typewritten.org> Folks; I see (and am grateful for) the disk images for the Tallgrass PC Hardfile/Tape unit (TG 3000/3100 series, such as my TG-3020) that have been archived on minuszerodegrees.com. This represents version 4.xx of the utilties, for use with PC-DOS 2.x. I was hoping to use this device on a 5150 PC with PC-DOS 1.1 and CP/M-86. This requires an older version (3.xx) of the DOS software, and one for CP/M-86 1.00 (also Tallgrass software version 3.xx? but a separate disk, I should imagine). If anybody happens to have a copy of either of these and don't mind sharing it, I'd love to hear from you. Thanks! ok bear. -- until further notice From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 07:55:50 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 14:55:50 +0200 Subject: SUN VME - seller in Sweden. Message-ID: A company has a few VME SUN 3/xxx CPU Cards and a SMD card for sale in case anyone is interested: https://ggsp.se/69-oevriga Approximately 100 USD each. They have also been listed on Swedish auction site Tradera for some time without selling so perhaps it is possible to negotiate? /Mattis From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Aug 1 10:47:50 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 11:47:50 -0400 Subject: SUN VME - Have em in US.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3b876af1-7662-93c1-ad8e-bf8837fc682d@alembic.crystel.com> I have about 15 boards that look like they came from Sun 3/xxx series systems. Mostly SCSI controller boards things that might be clocks, and memory boards. About 3 Sun 3/xxx CPUs as well (later ones, 68020) Anyone need them? Let me know, pickup from MD preferred. CZ On 8/1/2020 8:55 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > A company has a few VME SUN 3/xxx CPU Cards and a SMD card for sale in case > anyone is interested: > > https://ggsp.se/69-oevriga > > Approximately 100 USD each. > > They have also been listed on Swedish auction site Tradera for some time > without selling so perhaps it is possible to negotiate? > > /Mattis > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 1 12:07:56 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 10:07:56 -0700 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes Message-ID: <37afb2e0-b51c-f7f8-32d7-6173b8b6f9e9@bitsavers.org> I've bought a small number of L-series tapes over the years that I finally read yesterday, mostly pass 1 and 2 of the assembler. Part numbers look like this. Oddly, they all seem to be wound backwards. The person-readable label is at the end, which will make it annoying to scan. 1-2101-049-01 1-2101-052-07 1-1001-008-07 1-1001-009-07 Anyone have any others? From aperry at snowmoose.com Sat Aug 1 12:30:08 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 10:30:08 -0700 Subject: SUN VME - Have em in US.... In-Reply-To: <3b876af1-7662-93c1-ad8e-bf8837fc682d@alembic.crystel.com> References: <3b876af1-7662-93c1-ad8e-bf8837fc682d@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <9c7d9c4d-c496-17b9-dc33-99dcf8fdd314@snowmoose.com> I am interested, but I am not in Maryland. On 8/1/20 8:47 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I have about 15 boards that look like they came from Sun 3/xxx series > systems. Mostly SCSI controller boards things that might be clocks, and > memory boards. About 3 Sun 3/xxx CPUs as well (later ones, 68020) > > Anyone need them? Let me know, pickup from MD preferred. > > CZ > > On 8/1/2020 8:55 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> A company has a few VME SUN 3/xxx CPU Cards and a SMD card for sale in >> case >> anyone is interested: >> >> https://ggsp.se/69-oevriga >> >> Approximately 100 USD each. >> >> They have also been listed on Swedish auction site Tradera for some time >> without selling so perhaps it is possible to negotiate? >> >> /Mattis >> From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Aug 1 14:35:46 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 15:35:46 -0400 Subject: SUN VME - Have em in US.... In-Reply-To: <9c7d9c4d-c496-17b9-dc33-99dcf8fdd314@snowmoose.com> References: <3b876af1-7662-93c1-ad8e-bf8837fc682d@alembic.crystel.com> <9c7d9c4d-c496-17b9-dc33-99dcf8fdd314@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <8a840ece-b509-d7fe-cc25-8a6858d10d9d@alembic.crystel.com> Where are you? C On 8/1/2020 1:30 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > I am interested, but I am not in Maryland. > > On 8/1/20 8:47 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> I have about 15 boards that look like they came from Sun 3/xxx series >> systems. Mostly SCSI controller boards things that might be clocks, >> and memory boards. About 3 Sun 3/xxx CPUs as well (later ones, 68020) >> >> Anyone need them? Let me know, pickup from MD preferred. >> >> CZ >> >> On 8/1/2020 8:55 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >>> A company has a few VME SUN 3/xxx CPU Cards and a SMD card for sale >>> in case >>> anyone is interested: >>> >>> https://ggsp.se/69-oevriga >>> >>> Approximately 100 USD each. >>> >>> They have also been listed on Swedish auction site Tradera for some time >>> without selling so perhaps it is possible to negotiate? >>> >>> /Mattis >>> From earl at baugh.org Sat Aug 1 14:43:26 2020 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 15:43:26 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I?m interested!!! Would you be able to take them to a UPS store ( or the like ) and I?ll call them to pay for shipping. Possible?? Earl Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 1, 2020, at 1:00 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > ?Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: OpenVMS Community License (Rico Pajarola) > 2. Tallgrass PC hardfile driver/utility software (r.stricklin) > 3. SUN VME - seller in Sweden. (Mattis Lind) > 4. Re: SUN VME - Have em in US.... (Chris Zach) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 16:04:29 -0700 > From: Rico Pajarola > To: Bill Gunshannon , "General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: OpenVMS Community License > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 8:06 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> One could make a case that the >>> wording of the license is imprecise enough >> >> The wording is only imprecise to those who do not wish to follow it. >> It is, by far, the cleanest and plainest written Hobbyist License I >> have ever seen. > > IANAL, but I'm married to one... just pointing out that "clear language" > does not mean the same thing to lawyers as it does to us engineers. > "software owned by Digital Equipment Corporation" is pretty vague as far as > lawyer-speak goes. The license does not seem to specifically include or > exclude alternative scenarios. Anyone, especially a non-lawyer who was not > involved with the drafting of the license, and says "obviously that must > mean X" is just making stuff up (it doesn't matter what X is. Notice that > I'm not saying it means you can use it under this license. I don't know, > and IANAL). It's like undefined behaviour in C. You can make an educated > guess (given additional information you have, such as history, > correspondence with Mentec about the topic etc.), and you might be right, > but the only way to find out for sure is to run the compiler and look at > the disassembly, i.e. force a clarification from Mentec. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 00:03:19 -0700 > From: "r.stricklin" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" > Subject: Tallgrass PC hardfile driver/utility software > Message-ID: <11E069C4-5A01-4E1B-875E-D36D13C5E738 at typewritten.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Folks; > > I see (and am grateful for) the disk images for the Tallgrass PC Hardfile/Tape unit (TG 3000/3100 series, such as my TG-3020) that have been archived on minuszerodegrees.com. This represents version 4.xx of the utilties, for use with PC-DOS 2.x. > > I was hoping to use this device on a 5150 PC with PC-DOS 1.1 and CP/M-86. This requires an older version (3.xx) of the DOS software, and one for CP/M-86 1.00 (also Tallgrass software version 3.xx? but a separate disk, I should imagine). > > If anybody happens to have a copy of either of these and don't mind sharing it, I'd love to hear from you. Thanks! > > > ok > bear. > > -- > until further notice > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 14:55:50 +0200 > From: Mattis Lind > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: SUN VME - seller in Sweden. > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > A company has a few VME SUN 3/xxx CPU Cards and a SMD card for sale in case > anyone is interested: > > https://ggsp.se/69-oevriga > > Approximately 100 USD each. > > They have also been listed on Swedish auction site Tradera for some time > without selling so perhaps it is possible to negotiate? > > /Mattis > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 11:47:50 -0400 > From: Chris Zach > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: SUN VME - Have em in US.... > Message-ID: <3b876af1-7662-93c1-ad8e-bf8837fc682d at alembic.crystel.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > I have about 15 boards that look like they came from Sun 3/xxx series > systems. Mostly SCSI controller boards things that might be clocks, and > memory boards. About 3 Sun 3/xxx CPUs as well (later ones, 68020) > > Anyone need them? Let me know, pickup from MD preferred. > > CZ > > On 8/1/2020 8:55 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> A company has a few VME SUN 3/xxx CPU Cards and a SMD card for sale in case >> anyone is interested: >> >> https://ggsp.se/69-oevriga >> >> Approximately 100 USD each. >> >> They have also been listed on Swedish auction site Tradera for some time >> without selling so perhaps it is possible to negotiate? >> >> /Mattis >> > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1 > ************************************* From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Sat Aug 1 15:47:03 2020 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 23:47:03 +0300 Subject: SUN VME - Have em in US.... In-Reply-To: <3b876af1-7662-93c1-ad8e-bf8837fc682d@alembic.crystel.com> References: <3b876af1-7662-93c1-ad8e-bf8837fc682d@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Hello, I?m interested in few board or all, but will you ship to NY? Best regards, Plamen On Saturday, August 1, 2020, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I have about 15 boards that look like they came from Sun 3/xxx series > systems. Mostly SCSI controller boards things that might be clocks, and > memory boards. About 3 Sun 3/xxx CPUs as well (later ones, 68020) > > Anyone need them? Let me know, pickup from MD preferred. > > CZ > > On 8/1/2020 8:55 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > >> A company has a few VME SUN 3/xxx CPU Cards and a SMD card for sale in >> case >> anyone is interested: >> >> https://ggsp.se/69-oevriga >> >> Approximately 100 USD each. >> >> They have also been listed on Swedish auction site Tradera for some time >> without selling so perhaps it is possible to negotiate? >> >> /Mattis >> >> From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Aug 1 15:47:37 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 16:47:37 -0400 Subject: SUN VME - Have em in US.... In-Reply-To: <9c7d9c4d-c496-17b9-dc33-99dcf8fdd314@snowmoose.com> References: <3b876af1-7662-93c1-ad8e-bf8837fc682d@alembic.crystel.com> <9c7d9c4d-c496-17b9-dc33-99dcf8fdd314@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: For all, I can take them to a UPS shipping center if you pay for packing and shipping. I just drop 'em off and you figure it out. I'll send them in packs of four, Cost: This is coming from Bob's stash of stuff and any proceeds go directly to his mom who is 81 and trying to replace her boiler. Paypal me what you think is fair. fkirst batch is 5011320 5011050 5011217 5018011 5011149 CZ On 8/1/2020 1:30 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > I am interested, but I am not in Maryland. > > On 8/1/20 8:47 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> I have about 15 boards that look like they came from Sun 3/xxx series >> systems. Mostly SCSI controller boards things that might be clocks, >> and memory boards. About 3 Sun 3/xxx CPUs as well (later ones, 68020) >> >> Anyone need them? Let me know, pickup from MD preferred. >> >> CZ >> >> On 8/1/2020 8:55 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >>> A company has a few VME SUN 3/xxx CPU Cards and a SMD card for sale >>> in case >>> anyone is interested: >>> >>> https://ggsp.se/69-oevriga >>> >>> Approximately 100 USD each. >>> >>> They have also been listed on Swedish auction site Tradera for some time >>> without selling so perhaps it is possible to negotiate? >>> >>> /Mattis >>> From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 1 17:43:23 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 15:43:23 -0700 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes In-Reply-To: <37afb2e0-b51c-f7f8-32d7-6173b8b6f9e9@bitsavers.org> References: <37afb2e0-b51c-f7f8-32d7-6173b8b6f9e9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 8/1/20 10:07 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I've bought a small number of L-series tapes over the years that I finally read yesterday, > mostly pass 1 and 2 of the assembler. finished scanning the labels. they are uploaded now to http://bitsavers.org/bits/Burroughs/L-Series From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 1 20:04:29 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 18:04:29 -0700 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes In-Reply-To: <1FC652FAA5774F439482D0484F21C3DE@310e2> References: <37afb2e0-b51c-f7f8-32d7-6173b8b6f9e9@bitsavers.org> <1FC652FAA5774F439482D0484F21C3DE@310e2> Message-ID: On 8/1/20 3:04 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > No descriptions? No idea which model L? Would be interesting to see the dumps, esp. the assembler. including cctlk, since that is where I posted the message pass 1 and 2 for the L-4000 and a combined SL5 tape marked "L8/L9" From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 1 20:04:29 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 18:04:29 -0700 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes In-Reply-To: <1FC652FAA5774F439482D0484F21C3DE@310e2> References: <37afb2e0-b51c-f7f8-32d7-6173b8b6f9e9@bitsavers.org> <1FC652FAA5774F439482D0484F21C3DE@310e2> Message-ID: On 8/1/20 3:04 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > No descriptions? No idea which model L? Would be interesting to see the dumps, esp. the assembler. including cctlk, since that is where I posted the message pass 1 and 2 for the L-4000 and a combined SL5 tape marked "L8/L9" From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 1 20:53:24 2020 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 18:53:24 -0700 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes In-Reply-To: <37afb2e0-b51c-f7f8-32d7-6173b8b6f9e9@bitsavers.org> References: <37afb2e0-b51c-f7f8-32d7-6173b8b6f9e9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 8/1/2020 10:07 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I've bought a small number of L-series tapes over the years that I > finally read yesterday, > mostly pass 1 and 2 of the assembler. > Part numbers look like this. Oddly, they all seem to be wound > backwards. The person-readable > label is at the end, which will make it annoying to scan. > > 1-2101-049-01 > 1-2101-052-07 > 1-1001-008-07 > 1-1001-009-07 > > Anyone have any others I had a box of tapes for my L-5000, but unfortunately it and the tapes ended up at the LCM so who knows where they are now... Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 1 21:17:59 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 21:17:59 -0500 Subject: Any interest in "newer" hardware, software? In-Reply-To: References: <20200724063607.BA0954E6E8@mx2.ezwind.net> <16d75bd8-1f61-26e2-8705-8768c8628a34@charter.net> <0b8097f9-0904-e91d-1c15-fb1c6d1eb7b3@charter.net> Message-ID: <3c20c475-ad0d-3191-dcf5-1d057b0e40d9@charter.net> On 7/28/2020 11:33 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > On 2020-Jul-28, at 6:40 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: > >> On 7/28/2020 1:43 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctech wrote: >>> >>> Per the OP's machine, the early HP21xx machines were based on CT?L, for which the main supply is +4.5V. >>> DTL and TTL chips in these machines ran off that 4.5 supply. >>> >> >> The DTL I referred to in my posting are in a third-party (IOMEC) disk >> controller, not the HP 2114 CPU. > > Oh, I take it you mean in a separate chassis with it's own power supply then. > (I thought you were referring to the interface boards in the CPU chassis). > Yup. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 1 21:19:12 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 21:19:12 -0500 Subject: Any interest in "newer" hardware, software? In-Reply-To: <1616130330.6184748.1596016054589@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20200724063607.BA0954E6E8@mx2.ezwind.net> <16d75bd8-1f61-26e2-8705-8768c8628a34@charter.net> <0b8097f9-0904-e91d-1c15-fb1c6d1eb7b3@charter.net> <1616130330.6184748.1596016054589@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <74c7c7b5-889e-34cc-7e31-6cfb51f73dd3@charter.net> On 7/29/2020 4:47 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > RE iomec drive and? controller-?SMECC? has manuals? for? this subsystem and? diags? and drivers for? it.Wen things get back? to normal we will be able to accesses themshould you need any info.?We are also looking? ?for? ?a 2114!? and? a 2115!? ?We have the 2116 (drop us a line offlist)?Ed#? ?SMECC?In a message dated 7/28/2020 10:51:30 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctech at classiccmp.org writes:? I do have the manuals as well. Haven't scanned them yet, but I think some of them might be on bitsavers. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 17:04:09 2020 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 18:04:09 -0400 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes References: <37afb2e0-b51c-f7f8-32d7-6173b8b6f9e9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1FC652FAA5774F439482D0484F21C3DE@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow via cctech" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2020 1:07 PM Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes > I've bought a small number of L-series tapes over the years that I finally read yesterday, > mostly pass 1 and 2 of the assembler. > Part numbers look like this. Oddly, they all seem to be wound backwards. The person-readable > label is at the end, which will make it annoying to scan. > > 1-2101-049-01 > 1-2101-052-07 > 1-1001-008-07 > 1-1001-009-07 > > Anyone have any others? > > ----------------------------------- No descriptions? No idea which model L? Would be interesting to see the dumps, esp. the assembler. I threw out several boxes full, way back before I realized that people were actually interested in this old junk, err, these old classic systems. Guess someone just wound them up as they came out of the machine. I've been following the recent thread about reading paper tapes and don't see why there are any issues? Assuming you have some kind of reader the interface should be trivial; just read them at full speed and manipulate them as needed later on a PC. Reversing the sequence oughta be really trivial, no? Could even do it with Excel ;-) Or am I missing something? m From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 15:13:07 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 15:13:07 -0500 Subject: Seeking PET 4016/32 'shift' keycap Message-ID: <95e577bb-aaaf-4183-7558-55db773b1dee@gmail.com> After over a decade of keeping eyes peeled, I found a Commodore PET 4016 at a yard sale yesterday (it actually wasn't in the sale, but there was some old phone stuff there, and when I see anything like that I always ask the owner if they happen to have any vintage computer stuff hiding away). The case is pretty battered, and it was disgusting and reeked of rodent urine, but after cleaning it and going over things it (incredibly) actually works. I am, however, missing a right shift keycap. Does anyone happen to have a junker (perhaps one that's already missing keys) and so would be willing to sell me one? It's identical to the left-side, and I think is shared with the 4032 models. Cosmetically the machine's never going to be perfect (at least not without some careful gluing on a couple of cracks and a full repaint), but a complete keyboard would improve things considerably! thanks Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 3 14:34:17 2020 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 14:34:17 -0500 Subject: [GreenKeys] Omaha craigslist - Teletype RO printer - what model? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200803193439.AF56A2742A@mx1.ezwind.net> At 12:56 PM 8/3/2020, Nick England wrote: >Looks interesting - I know nothing more >https://omaha.craigslist.org/sys/d/omaha-heathkit-h19-terminal-vintage-old/7170438478.html > >What model printer is that? typewheel, not dot matrix. Any ideas over here? - John From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Aug 3 15:09:47 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:09:47 -0700 Subject: [GreenKeys] Omaha craigslist - Teletype RO printer - what model? In-Reply-To: <20200803193439.AF56A2742A@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20200803193439.AF56A2742A@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <151B9B35-6AB3-4B55-BB91-FB504509E963@shaw.ca> On 2020-Aug-03, at 12:34 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 12:56 PM 8/3/2020, Nick England wrote: >> Looks interesting - I know nothing more >> https://omaha.craigslist.org/sys/d/omaha-heathkit-h19-terminal-vintage-old/7170438478.html >> >> What model printer is that? typewheel, not dot matrix. > > Any ideas over here? The type cylinder and other visible construction details appear consistent with the Model 33 mechanism. (as in the well-known Model 33-ASR / ASR-33. ASR = Automatic Send Receive). Perhaps then, a Model 33-RO (Receive Only). While there's tractor-feed paper in there, it doesn't appear to actually be a tractor-feed drive. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Aug 3 15:12:54 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:12:54 -0700 Subject: [GreenKeys] Omaha craigslist - Teletype RO printer - what model? In-Reply-To: <20200803193439.AF56A2742A@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20200803193439.AF56A2742A@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1eb0e933-eaec-4bb1-3417-7667dd0484a4@jwsss.com> On 8/3/2020 12:34 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 12:56 PM 8/3/2020, Nick England wrote: >> Looks interesting - I know nothing more >> https://omaha.craigslist.org/sys/d/omaha-heathkit-h19-terminal-vintage-old/7170438478.html >> >> What model printer is that? typewheel, not dot matrix. > Any ideas over here? > > - John > > A non keyboard TTY 33 print mechanism, if I'm not mistaken.? That's about all there is if you don't have keyboard and punch stuff. thanks Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 3 15:36:05 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:36:05 -0700 Subject: [GreenKeys] Omaha craigslist - Teletype RO printer - what model? In-Reply-To: <20200803193439.AF56A2742A@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20200803193439.AF56A2742A@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5685dd8c-ac47-a35e-bcb1-7d05f4dc9352@bitsavers.org> On 8/3/20 12:34 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 12:56 PM 8/3/2020, Nick England wrote: >> Looks interesting - I know nothing more >> https://omaha.craigslist.org/sys/d/omaha-heathkit-h19-terminal-vintage-old/7170438478.html >> >> What model printer is that? typewheel, not dot matrix. > > Any ideas over here? > > - John > > model 37RO From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 3 15:40:24 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:40:24 -0700 Subject: [GreenKeys] Omaha craigslist - Teletype RO printer - what model? In-Reply-To: <5685dd8c-ac47-a35e-bcb1-7d05f4dc9352@bitsavers.org> References: <20200803193439.AF56A2742A@mx1.ezwind.net> <5685dd8c-ac47-a35e-bcb1-7d05f4dc9352@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <82c2f5db-ea28-911c-7dac-09b62f9326c0@bitsavers.org> On 8/3/20 1:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > model 37RO > my mistake, it's a 33, 37 had a type block From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 21:25:24 2020 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 22:25:24 -0400 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes References: <37afb2e0-b51c-f7f8-32d7-6173b8b6f9e9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8E6DB9E2F1114EE6A072FA2371D5AD77@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk" To: Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2020 9:53 PM Subject: Re: Burroughs L-series paper tapes > On 8/1/2020 10:07 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> I've bought a small number of L-series tapes over the years that I >> finally read yesterday, >> mostly pass 1 and 2 of the assembler. >> Part numbers look like this. Oddly, they all seem to be wound >> backwards. The person-readable >> label is at the end, which will make it annoying to scan. >> >> 1-2101-049-01 >> 1-2101-052-07 >> 1-1001-008-07 >> 1-1001-009-07 >> >> Anyone have any others > > I had a box of tapes for my L-5000, but unfortunately it and the tapes > ended up at the LCM so who knows where they are now... > > Bob ----------------------------- Sorry to hear it ended up in LCM limbo; did you ever get it working? And what about your L9000 (or was it an 8000?) ? Did it also go to the LCM? Not many left, alas... m From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 4 11:10:12 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:10:12 -0500 Subject: A tale of two Automated Logic Diagram Sheets Message-ID: <6be4525c-0597-c23c-cf04-c0d5567aa26f@charter.net> I encountered my second missing Automated Logic Diagram (ALD) page for the IBM 1410: 13.64.03.1, which, based on the signals fed to it and which it produces, would, fortunately, necessarily have the same logic as page 15.41.10.1 - "E CH FULL CONTROL-ACC". Page 13.64.03.1 is for the second, or F Channel. The E Channel version uses 9 NAND gates and 4 drivers. However, based on the card location chart, the F Channel version, even though it would have corresponding logic, has TWENTY-ONE gates (some of those could be just load resistors) on card type DGR. These are ALL just INVERTERS. The card location chart also calls out 2 gates on card type DFS - also inverters, and one gate on card type AEK which uses equation (NOT IN1) OR IN2 to produce its output. The F channel logic used up two cards slots plus parts of six others. The E Channel logic version used three card slots (probably in their entirety) and the drivers used parts of four other cards slots What to do? As readers will likely know, you can't do any real logic with just inverters. However, SMS card outputs can be hooked together with all but one of the gates so connected (or "DOT-ed") having open collector outputs. Electrically, given the circuits on the DGR and DFS cards (as well as most others the IBM 1410 uses), if you follow that with an inverter you get OR => NOT, aka "NOR" logic. Now that we can do something with. So, I wrote a VHDL test bench, based on the Intermediate Logic Diagram (ILD) that shows the necessary logic for the E Channel (and indicates the F Channel is the same), and tested that against the E Channel page to make sure my understanding of the logic was correct. Then, as an exercise, with liberal application of DeMorgan's theorems, I proceeded to lay out the logic for the F channel version in that fashion. It took 21 inverters (using the AEK as an inverter) and 1 load resistor (which I probably didn't need to use) and eight DOT functions (ORs) to produce the necessary logic. So, pretty close, but not a perfect reproduction. One thing is an issue for sure: I "DOT-ed" two inputs together that come from other sheets whose outputs are used on still other sheets - which is generally a no-no. It would not have been that way on the original machine - they would need to be isolated by being fed into gates of some sort - even if only back to back inverters. I could probably spend a bit more time, find a way to leverage the second input on the gate AEK, and get it more exact, but frankly, it isn't worth the effort right now. JRJ ? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 4 11:15:47 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:15:47 -0700 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes In-Reply-To: <8E6DB9E2F1114EE6A072FA2371D5AD77@310e2> References: <37afb2e0-b51c-f7f8-32d7-6173b8b6f9e9@bitsavers.org> <8E6DB9E2F1114EE6A072FA2371D5AD77@310e2> Message-ID: On 8/3/20 7:25 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > And what about your L9000 (or was it an 8000?) ? Did it also go to the LCM? > > Not many left, alas... we have an L-9000 https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X1742.2001 From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Tue Aug 4 13:14:19 2020 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:14:19 -0700 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <148d4c01-2bfc-421e-6ceb-8e2155a6e6b0@flying-disk.com> Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/3/20 7:25 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > >> And what about your L9000 (or was it an 8000?) ? Did it also go to the LCM? >> >> Not many left, alas... > > we have an L-9000 > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X1742.2001 Here is another one: In 2006, Nelson Nameplate Company (now Nelson-Miller) gave their L9000 to Sellam Ismail at Vintagetech.com. He already had an L7000 and was anxious to add the L9000 to his collection. Nelson had wanted to donate it to a 501(c)(3) institution, but nobody was interested. They bought it in 1975, and it was in daily use in their billing department until November 2005. They certainly got their money's worth out of it! Amusing side note: The repair guy who kept it running for many years had the unfortunate name of Slobodan Milosevic. He preferred to go by simply "Dan". :-) Alan Frisbie From jesse at cypress-tech.com Tue Aug 4 13:10:39 2020 From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 14:10:39 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 Series A400, A600, A700, A900, A990 RTE Systems - Maintenance companies Message-ID: Are there any companies or entities left out there that are still doing hardware support on the older HP A900 / A990 systems? Looking for Worldwide people or companies. I get requests form time to time and don't know where to send them. Thanks Jesse Cypress Technology Inc jesse(at)cypress-tech.com From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 4 14:32:01 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:32:01 -0700 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes In-Reply-To: <148d4c01-2bfc-421e-6ceb-8e2155a6e6b0@flying-disk.com> References: <148d4c01-2bfc-421e-6ceb-8e2155a6e6b0@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: <6da92828-bb4a-cd50-3193-5c418a87b9ae@bitsavers.org> On 8/4/20 11:14 AM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 8/3/20 7:25 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >> >>> And what about your L9000 (or was it an 8000?) ? Did it also go to the LCM? >>> >>> Not many left, alas... >> >> we have an L-9000 >> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X1742.2001 > Here is another one: > > In 2006, Nelson Nameplate Company (now Nelson-Miller) gave their > L9000 to Sellam Ismail at Vintagetech.com.? He already had an > L7000 and was anxious to add the L9000 to his collection. Sellam's machines are likely lost. He's on here, maybe he knows. From ccth6600 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 23:40:06 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 12:40:06 +0800 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes In-Reply-To: <6da92828-bb4a-cd50-3193-5c418a87b9ae@bitsavers.org> References: <148d4c01-2bfc-421e-6ceb-8e2155a6e6b0@flying-disk.com> <6da92828-bb4a-cd50-3193-5c418a87b9ae@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: What happened to Sellam's machines? Why are they "likely lost"? Is this another sad LCM like story? Thanks Tom Hunter On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:10 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 8/4/20 11:14 AM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > > Al Kossow wrote: > > > >> On 8/3/20 7:25 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>> And what about your L9000 (or was it an 8000?) ? Did it also go to the > LCM? > >>> > >>> Not many left, alas... > >> > >> we have an L-9000 > >> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X1742.2001 > > Here is another one: > > > > In 2006, Nelson Nameplate Company (now Nelson-Miller) gave their > > L9000 to Sellam Ismail at Vintagetech.com. He already had an > > L7000 and was anxious to add the L9000 to his collection. > > Sellam's machines are likely lost. > He's on here, maybe he knows. > > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 21:24:54 2020 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 22:24:54 -0400 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes References: <37afb2e0-b51c-f7f8-32d7-6173b8b6f9e9@bitsavers.org> <8E6DB9E2F1114EE6A072FA2371D5AD77@310e2> Message-ID: <129F239E31C34876AB05A446221AD614@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow via cctech" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2020 12:15 PM Subject: Re: Burroughs L-series paper tapes > On 8/3/20 7:25 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > >> And what about your L9000 (or was it an 8000?) ? Did it also go to the LCM? >> >> Not many left, alas... > > we have an L-9000 > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X1742.2001 > > --------------------------------- Looks like both of Bob's went to the LCM; I remember there was another L9000 rescued in California years ago, but maybe that's the one you have now. One or two older ones out east (RICM?) but not too many left, especially in actual working condition. A shame IMO, an area of computing that's not been preserved or even documented very well. m From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 12:35:32 2020 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 13:35:32 -0400 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99DA0E4C-4645-4B02-A662-32F5A6C3FDDB@gmail.com> There is a B800 at the RICM, but nothing larger. > On Aug 5, 2020, at 1:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Burroughs L-series paper tapes From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 16:31:10 2020 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:31:10 -0400 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes References: <99DA0E4C-4645-4B02-A662-32F5A6C3FDDB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <99454D927634463A9DA26D6A8562A686@310e2> I guess the L series would be considered smaller, different but more or less equivalent to the B80. I thought there was an L4000 and/or an L7000 in a museum out east somewhere; I think Bill Degnan would know. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Thompson via cctech" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2020 1:35 PM Subject: Re: Burroughs L-series paper tapes > There is a B800 at the RICM, but nothing larger. > > >> On Aug 5, 2020, at 1:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> >> Burroughs L-series paper tapes From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 6 13:13:31 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 11:13:31 -0700 Subject: RSTS Professional scans Message-ID: <91d761d9-38da-af64-0a09-7a013566b9d7@bitsavers.org> almost finished with this http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/magazines/RSTS_Professional I'd like to gap-fill the rare RSTS Professional issues if anyone still has them. They are staple-bound so they can be scanned without removing a binding. From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Aug 6 14:02:33 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:02:33 -0700 Subject: RSTS Professional scans In-Reply-To: <91d761d9-38da-af64-0a09-7a013566b9d7@bitsavers.org> References: <91d761d9-38da-af64-0a09-7a013566b9d7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <494B5400-8BA3-4B87-9068-70E479D109B5@avanthar.com> Thanks Al, the one I looked through looks like a great source of info! Zane > On Aug 6, 2020, at 11:13 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > almost finished with this > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/magazines/RSTS_Professional > > I'd like to gap-fill the rare RSTS Professional issues if anyone still has them. They are staple-bound so they can be scanned without removing a binding. > From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Thu Aug 6 14:04:28 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:04:28 -0500 Subject: RSTS Professional scans In-Reply-To: <91d761d9-38da-af64-0a09-7a013566b9d7@bitsavers.org> References: <91d761d9-38da-af64-0a09-7a013566b9d7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4780c571-63f2-5609-c1c8-f67643dfbf08@thereinhardts.org> On 8/6/2020 1:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > almost finished with this > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/magazines/RSTS_Professional > > I'd like to gap-fill the rare RSTS Professional issues if anyone still has them. They are staple-bound so they can be scanned without removing a binding. > There are a good number of the archived on Brett Bump's RSTS.ORG site. -- John H. Reinhardt From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Thu Aug 6 14:12:21 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:12:21 -0500 Subject: RSTS Professional scans In-Reply-To: <4780c571-63f2-5609-c1c8-f67643dfbf08@thereinhardts.org> References: <91d761d9-38da-af64-0a09-7a013566b9d7@bitsavers.org> <4780c571-63f2-5609-c1c8-f67643dfbf08@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <01ca6c91-f80d-6b8f-6c29-348a561c3dfb@thereinhardts.org> On 8/6/2020 2:04 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > On 8/6/2020 1:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> almost finished with this >> >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/magazines/RSTS_Professional >> >> I'd like to gap-fill the rare RSTS Professional issues if anyone still has them. They are staple-bound so they can be scanned without removing a binding. >> > There are a good number of the archived on Brett Bump's RSTS.ORG site. > > > It says 21 of 35 scanned and in process but it's been in process for a number of years. Brett might be on other projects.? I know he's here occasionally. -- John H. Reinhardt From kirkbdavis at me.com Thu Aug 6 14:22:47 2020 From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:22:47 -0700 Subject: RSTS Professional scans In-Reply-To: <91d761d9-38da-af64-0a09-7a013566b9d7@bitsavers.org> References: <91d761d9-38da-af64-0a09-7a013566b9d7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <19C6027F-ED43-4ABD-8AAB-3F22EFE2B340@me.com> Hey Al There are some here: http://www.rsts.org/autoindex.php?dir=rstspro Kirk Sent from my iPad > On Aug 6, 2020, at 11:13 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > ?almost finished with this > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/magazines/RSTS_Professional > > I'd like to gap-fill the rare RSTS Professional issues if anyone still has them. They are staple-bound so they can be scanned without removing a binding. > From sieler at allegro.com Thu Aug 6 15:07:34 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 13:07:34 -0700 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Mike Stein writes: > > I remember there was another L9000 rescued in California years ago, > but maybe that's the one you have now. > My consulting company was in Redwood City, CA. Our nextdoor neighbor had a company leasing new cars. They ran the company on a Burroughs L9000. About August of 2000, they were at the point where they could no longer obtain ledger cards (roughly 8x11 with a magnetic stripe down the side for computer data), for the L9000, so they were going to move to a PC-based system. The owner knew I was a computer collector, so he offered to give me the L9000. I was tempted...but it was a large machine, so I arranged for it to be given to the Computer History Museum (where I was, or became (timeline hazy) a senior docent). I remember the owner saying that only the cleverness of their independent maintenance guy had kept the machine running ... to the point where he'd machined some replacement parts himself. I talked to the elderly lady who ran the machine (i.e., did the data entry). She compared it to the PC, and lamented the loss of the L9000. The L9000 was so much faster and easier to use! She could probably enter data four or five times faster on the L9000. It wasn't just a matter of familiarity ... much of the slowdown was due to the GUI nature of the PC program they switched to, and they no longer had the luxury of having relatively purpose-related hardware on the L9000. Stan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 6 15:11:44 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 13:11:44 -0700 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90f16e4a-777e-e545-e5cd-d8daeafc378c@bitsavers.org> On 8/6/20 1:07 PM, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > I was tempted...but it was a large machine, so I arranged for it to be > given to the Computer History Museum (where I was, or became (timeline > hazy) a senior docent). that is https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X1742.2001 From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 15:32:01 2020 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 16:32:01 -0400 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Sieler via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Burroughs L-series paper tapes > > >> Mike Stein writes: >> > I remember there was another L9000 rescued in California years ago, >> but maybe that's the one you have now. >> > > My consulting company was in Redwood City, CA. Our nextdoor neighbor had a > company leasing new cars. They ran the company on a Burroughs L9000. > > About August of 2000, they were at the point where they could no longer > obtain ledger cards (roughly 8x11 with a magnetic stripe down the side for > computer data), for the L9000, so they were going to move to a PC-based > system. > The owner knew I was a computer collector, so he offered to give me the > L9000. > > I was tempted...but it was a large machine, so I arranged for it to be > given to the Computer History Museum (where I was, or became (timeline > hazy) a senior docent). > > I remember the owner saying that only the cleverness of their independent > maintenance guy had kept the machine running ... to the point where he'd > machined some replacement parts himself. > > I talked to the elderly lady who ran the machine (i.e., did the data > entry). She compared it to the PC, and lamented the loss of the L9000. > The L9000 was so much faster and easier to use! She could probably enter > data four or five times faster on the L9000. It wasn't just a matter of > familiarity ... much of the slowdown was due to the GUI nature of the PC > program they switched to, and they no longer had the luxury of having > relatively purpose-related hardware on the L9000. > > Stan ------------------------- If you scroll down to the L9000 there are pictures of the rescue I was thinking of, which may well be the system you're talking about and even the lady in question: http://www.picklesnet.com/burroughs/gallery/bpgltc.htm From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Aug 6 15:59:25 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 16:59:25 -0400 Subject: RSTS Professional scans In-Reply-To: <91d761d9-38da-af64-0a09-7a013566b9d7@bitsavers.org> References: <91d761d9-38da-af64-0a09-7a013566b9d7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2C889897-41B2-435E-86A3-7E5A6B0C2AF4@comcast.net> I have Vol 1 No 1 and Vol 2 No 2. I see both of those are already scanned on rsts.org . paul > On Aug 6, 2020, at 2:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > almost finished with this > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/magazines/RSTS_Professional > > I'd like to gap-fill the rare RSTS Professional issues if anyone still has them. They are staple-bound so they can be scanned without removing a binding. > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Aug 6 16:01:55 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:01:55 -0700 Subject: Burrough L- Series / Heads down data entry. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/6/2020 1:07 PM, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > much of the slowdown was due to the GUI nature of the PC > program they switched to, and they no longer had the luxury of having > relatively purpose-related hardware on the L9000. Most people have never seen real heads down data entry in action. We had a lady who could do it, and I wrote a custom program for her to get data off of inventory cards. She did two runs of all of the inventory of Western Digital, at the time had progressed to the early disk controller chip time of its history, about 5000 tags.? Took her about an hour to do two passes entering via keypad on a Microdata Reality. 4 fields / card, numeric.? It wasn't even a big deal, she had worked in shops with 8 hours shifts doing such. The inventory program they used via timeshare remote on our system had an estimate of 5 people working the entire day (a Saturday) after pulling the cards.? As it was they paid I think $200 for the job, and had it done in half a day with the edit pass.? That wasn't possible time wise with a data entry screen. Systems on mainframes with 3270s could do the data entry on gui screens, and some systems on Reality I saw had gotten the interfaces fast enough to allow such. When the PC came out we held on as long as we did because such as 123 and whatever input sucked so bad that people would have none of it. CP/M had some spreadsheets and MRP systems and the like but they didn't scale well. thanks Jim From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Aug 6 16:05:45 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 17:05:45 -0400 Subject: RSTS Professional scans In-Reply-To: <91d761d9-38da-af64-0a09-7a013566b9d7@bitsavers.org> References: <91d761d9-38da-af64-0a09-7a013566b9d7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 8/6/20 2:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > almost finished with this > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/magazines/RSTS_Professional > > I'd like to gap-fill the rare RSTS Professional issues if anyone still > has them. They are staple-bound so they can be scanned without removing > a binding. > Wow!! Can't wait to read some of them again. bill From sieler at allegro.com Thu Aug 6 17:27:18 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 15:27:18 -0700 Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Re: If you scroll down to the L9000 there are pictures of the rescue I was thinking of, which may well be the system you're talking about and even the lady in question: > > http://www.picklesnet.com/burroughs/gallery/bpgltc.htm Yes!, thanks! On http://www.picklesnet.com/burroughs/images/fullsize/burr0056.jpg, if you go out the door, our office was to the left. I can't recall who took the photos (if I did, it would explain why I'm not in them :) ... I recognize several local collectors (KS & FMC, at least). thanks again, Stan From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 02:33:31 2020 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 03:33:31 -0400 Subject: Apple IIe case screws Message-ID: Does anyone know the size/threading of these? I've been searching high and low and haven't been able to find any approximate or otherwise specs (they use captive clips, so close is OK) - i've found the PSU mounting screw sizes and sourced those though. -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 18:08:17 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 18:08:17 -0500 Subject: weird rack unit Message-ID: anyone ever seen one of these? has a motorola 6800 date coded 1976 on it https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/50199901793/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/50200714992/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/50199903443/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/50200713557/in/dateposted-public/ prityy obscure no model markings on the case. the rack its in has handles for carying so it might of flown around in a plane as part of a kit for doing geophysical not sure though From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Aug 7 18:34:58 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 17:34:58 -0600 Subject: weird rack unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The OCO looks nice. Timing gear maybe? Warner On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, 5:08 PM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > anyone ever seen one of these? > has a motorola 6800 date coded 1976 on it > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/50199901793/in/dateposted-public/ > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/50200714992/in/dateposted-public/ > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/50199903443/in/dateposted-public/ > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/50200713557/in/dateposted-public/ > > prityy obscure no model markings on the case. the rack its in has handles > for carying so it might of flown around in a plane as part of a kit for > doing geophysical not sure though > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 01:44:39 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 07:44:39 +0100 Subject: weird rack unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08c201d66d4f$63dcd870$2b968950$@gmail.com> It says "fluxgate magnetometer" on the case so its for measuring the earths magnetic field, or other magnetic fields. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > via cctalk > Sent: 08 August 2020 00:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: weird rack unit > > anyone ever seen one of these? > has a motorola 6800 date coded 1976 on it > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/50199901793/in/dateposted-public/ > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/50200714992/in/dateposted-public/ > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/50199903443/in/dateposted-public/ > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/50200713557/in/dateposted-public/ > > prityy obscure no model markings on the case. the rack its in has handles for > carying so it might of flown around in a plane as part of a kit for doing > geophysical not sure though From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 02:10:58 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 00:10:58 -0700 Subject: DEC VR260 service docs / common failure modes? Message-ID: Hi all -- Picked up a non-functional but otherwise nice looking DEC VR260 (19" b&w monitor) on the cheap, hoping to use it with my VAXstation 2000. From what I've read, these were never the most reliable displays. Curious if anyone has any information on common failure modes, or has service docs squirreled away somewhere. I've at least found schematics, so I have something to go on, but it's not exactly the most straightforward design I've poked at. Right now when powered up I hear a repeated low hum from the transformer followed by a soft ticking noise so I'm guessing I've got power supply issues at the very least. Unsure what I should expect the monitor to do if it's not being fed a valid video signal (I haven't yet tried to hook the VS2000 up to it) -- whether it'll go into free-running mode or do mostly nothing until it has something to sync to... Thanks as always, Josh From marco at familie-rauhut.eu Sun Aug 9 08:00:12 2020 From: marco at familie-rauhut.eu (Marco Rauhut) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 15:00:12 +0200 Subject: Acer-Altos System 4500 Message-ID: Hi List I have here a Acer-Altos System 4500. It is a 486/33 EISA System with an Altos Basic SCSI Bsc(e) Controller. It has an Altos Multidrop/2 EISA Controller (to controll TCU Boxes that handle RS232 Ports) and a VGA1024i EISA Graphics controller. My mision is to bring that System back to life respectively get access to the Discs. The built in SCSI Disk are running and i have created Images of this Disks in a Linux PC. But i can not boot the System by one of this Disks. I remember that on this disk is some sort of Altos SCO Unix System V installed. Did sombody here on the list have documentation or the original Installationmedia (QIC-525) for that system? Marco From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun Aug 9 18:02:31 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 00:02:31 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: DEC VR260 service docs / common failure modes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01RO98PKPZKO8ZDW0R@beyondthepale.ie> Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hi all -- > > Picked up a non-functional but otherwise nice looking DEC VR260 (19" b&w > monitor) on the cheap, hoping to use it with my VAXstation 2000. From what > I've read, these were never the most reliable displays. Curious if anyone > has any information on common failure modes, or has service docs squirreled > away somewhere. I've at least found schematics, so I have something to go > on, but it's not exactly the most straightforward design I've poked at. > > Right now when powered up I hear a repeated low hum from the transformer > followed by a soft ticking noise so I'm guessing I've got power supply > issues at the very least. Unsure what I should expect the monitor to do if > it's not being fed a valid video signal (I haven't yet tried to hook the > VS2000 up to it) -- whether it'll go into free-running mode or do mostly > nothing until it has something to sync to... > Is a VR260 anything like a VR262? I have a pair of the latter and could probably do some measurements for comparison if that would be useful, assuming mine still work... Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > Thanks as always, > Josh > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Mon Aug 10 12:18:34 2020 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:18:34 -0400 Subject: DEC VR260 service docs / common failure modes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Josh; I have a DEC VR150 that is nearly functional; shows full screen but the H/V are not in any sync at all.? Would love to use it with a VaxStation 3100. Opened it up and found it quite a complicated monitor, not like a simple PC monochrome monitor. Purchased a microfiche manual off ebay, but haven't been able to view it yet. Eager to hear how you do with your larger monitor. Doug On 8/9/2020 3:10 AM, Josh Dersch via cctech wrote: > Hi all -- > > Picked up a non-functional but otherwise nice looking DEC VR260 (19" b&w > monitor) on the cheap, hoping to use it with my VAXstation 2000. From what > I've read, these were never the most reliable displays. Curious if anyone > has any information on common failure modes, or has service docs squirreled > away somewhere. I've at least found schematics, so I have something to go > on, but it's not exactly the most straightforward design I've poked at. > > Right now when powered up I hear a repeated low hum from the transformer > followed by a soft ticking noise so I'm guessing I've got power supply > issues at the very least. Unsure what I should expect the monitor to do if > it's not being fed a valid video signal (I haven't yet tried to hook the > VS2000 up to it) -- whether it'll go into free-running mode or do mostly > nothing until it has something to sync to... > > Thanks as always, > Josh From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Mon Aug 10 12:24:19 2020 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:24:19 -0400 Subject: DEC Server 300 Message-ID: I'm interested in getting one of these, but browsing the manuals it appears there is software that is installed on the VAX to use them with VMS. Is the software required to attach terminals and login to various Vax's?? Or is it for management of the Dec Server 300? If the software is required, where do I find it?? Is it in the hobbyist distribution?? Is there a VAX and ALPHA version? Doug From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 12:37:55 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:37:55 -0400 Subject: DEC VR260 service docs / common failure modes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One comment...if you don't have the correct cable and a system that is set for the correct refresh rate, it may appear that the monitor does not work. Be sure you have compatible equipment. This was a specialized display. Bill On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 1:19 PM Douglas Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Josh; > > I have a DEC VR150 that is nearly functional; shows full screen but the > H/V are not in any sync at all. Would love to use it with a VaxStation > 3100. > > Opened it up and found it quite a complicated monitor, not like a simple > PC monochrome monitor. > > Purchased a microfiche manual off ebay, but haven't been able to view it > yet. > > Eager to hear how you do with your larger monitor. > > Doug > > On 8/9/2020 3:10 AM, Josh Dersch via cctech wrote: > > Hi all -- > > > > Picked up a non-functional but otherwise nice looking DEC VR260 (19" b&w > > monitor) on the cheap, hoping to use it with my VAXstation 2000. From > what > > I've read, these were never the most reliable displays. Curious if > anyone > > has any information on common failure modes, or has service docs > squirreled > > away somewhere. I've at least found schematics, so I have something to > go > > on, but it's not exactly the most straightforward design I've poked at. > > > > Right now when powered up I hear a repeated low hum from the transformer > > followed by a soft ticking noise so I'm guessing I've got power supply > > issues at the very least. Unsure what I should expect the monitor to do > if > > it's not being fed a valid video signal (I haven't yet tried to hook the > > VS2000 up to it) -- whether it'll go into free-running mode or do mostly > > nothing until it has something to sync to... > > > > Thanks as always, > > Josh > > > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Mon Aug 10 12:53:26 2020 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:53:26 -0400 Subject: DEC VR260 service docs / common failure modes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <084b05fd-0187-9c13-acca-f513c637d460@comcast.net> That's a very interesting comment, got me to thinking.? The VR150 was connected to a working Vax Station 3100 with the proper DEC cable and I observed the non-working behavior.? However, the color RGB output from the VS3100 works just fine, I boot the machine into VMS and runs just OK (but using a different monitor and video cable). In the VS3100, at least the one I have M78, I think the monochrome video output is separate from the RGB outputs.? I wonder if that part of the video circuit is not working correctly? I understand your comment about the rate, the VR150 is a non-standard video refresh rate.? I think it is hard wired just for the DEC video output. Doug On 8/10/2020 1:37 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > One comment...if you don't have the correct cable and a system that is set > for the correct refresh rate, it may appear that the monitor does not > work. Be sure you have compatible equipment. This was a specialized > display. > Bill > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 1:19 PM Douglas Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Josh; >> >> I have a DEC VR150 that is nearly functional; shows full screen but the >> H/V are not in any sync at all. Would love to use it with a VaxStation >> 3100. >> >> Opened it up and found it quite a complicated monitor, not like a simple >> PC monochrome monitor. >> >> Purchased a microfiche manual off ebay, but haven't been able to view it >> yet. >> >> Eager to hear how you do with your larger monitor. >> >> Doug >> >> On 8/9/2020 3:10 AM, Josh Dersch via cctech wrote: >>> Hi all -- >>> >>> Picked up a non-functional but otherwise nice looking DEC VR260 (19" b&w >>> monitor) on the cheap, hoping to use it with my VAXstation 2000. From >> what >>> I've read, these were never the most reliable displays. Curious if >> anyone >>> has any information on common failure modes, or has service docs >> squirreled >>> away somewhere. I've at least found schematics, so I have something to >> go >>> on, but it's not exactly the most straightforward design I've poked at. >>> >>> Right now when powered up I hear a repeated low hum from the transformer >>> followed by a soft ticking noise so I'm guessing I've got power supply >>> issues at the very least. Unsure what I should expect the monitor to do >> if >>> it's not being fed a valid video signal (I haven't yet tried to hook the >>> VS2000 up to it) -- whether it'll go into free-running mode or do mostly >>> nothing until it has something to sync to... >>> >>> Thanks as always, >>> Josh >> >> From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Aug 10 14:17:52 2020 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 12:17:52 -0700 Subject: weird rack unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50d8eac0-52e5-c1ad-047d-cfbdf29bbca0@mainecoon.com> On 8/7/20 4:34 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > The OCO looks nice. Timing gear maybe? Looks like a mid 70's - early 80's three-axis fluxgate magnetometer. The precision of a fluxgate is a direct function of the stability of the frequency source that is driving the drive winding, so an OCXO makes perfect sense. My offhand guess would be oil and gas exploration. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 13:28:46 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 14:28:46 -0400 Subject: DEC VR260 service docs / common failure modes? In-Reply-To: <084b05fd-0187-9c13-acca-f513c637d460@comcast.net> References: <084b05fd-0187-9c13-acca-f513c637d460@comcast.net> Message-ID: I just remember wrestling with one of those and determined I did not have a matching system. So I traded for something else about 2 years ago, or so. Mine is photographed on vintagecomputer.net/dec/vr260 I believe Bill On Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 1:53 PM Douglas Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > That's a very interesting comment, got me to thinking. The VR150 was > connected to a working Vax Station 3100 with the proper DEC cable and I > observed the non-working behavior. However, the color RGB output from > the VS3100 works just fine, I boot the machine into VMS and runs just OK > (but using a different monitor and video cable). > > In the VS3100, at least the one I have M78, I think the monochrome video > output is separate from the RGB outputs. I wonder if that part of the > video circuit is not working correctly? > > I understand your comment about the rate, the VR150 is a non-standard > video refresh rate. I think it is hard wired just for the DEC video > output. > > Doug > > On 8/10/2020 1:37 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > One comment...if you don't have the correct cable and a system that is > set > > for the correct refresh rate, it may appear that the monitor does not > > work. Be sure you have compatible equipment. This was a specialized > > display. > > Bill > > > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 1:19 PM Douglas Taylor via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Josh; > >> > >> I have a DEC VR150 that is nearly functional; shows full screen but the > >> H/V are not in any sync at all. Would love to use it with a VaxStation > >> 3100. > >> > >> Opened it up and found it quite a complicated monitor, not like a simple > >> PC monochrome monitor. > >> > >> Purchased a microfiche manual off ebay, but haven't been able to view it > >> yet. > >> > >> Eager to hear how you do with your larger monitor. > >> > >> Doug > >> > >> On 8/9/2020 3:10 AM, Josh Dersch via cctech wrote: > >>> Hi all -- > >>> > >>> Picked up a non-functional but otherwise nice looking DEC VR260 (19" > b&w > >>> monitor) on the cheap, hoping to use it with my VAXstation 2000. From > >> what > >>> I've read, these were never the most reliable displays. Curious if > >> anyone > >>> has any information on common failure modes, or has service docs > >> squirreled > >>> away somewhere. I've at least found schematics, so I have something to > >> go > >>> on, but it's not exactly the most straightforward design I've poked at. > >>> > >>> Right now when powered up I hear a repeated low hum from the > transformer > >>> followed by a soft ticking noise so I'm guessing I've got power supply > >>> issues at the very least. Unsure what I should expect the monitor to > do > >> if > >>> it's not being fed a valid video signal (I haven't yet tried to hook > the > >>> VS2000 up to it) -- whether it'll go into free-running mode or do > mostly > >>> nothing until it has something to sync to... > >>> > >>> Thanks as always, > >>> Josh > >> > >> > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 10 14:40:22 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 12:40:22 -0700 Subject: weird rack unit In-Reply-To: <50d8eac0-52e5-c1ad-047d-cfbdf29bbca0@mainecoon.com> References: <50d8eac0-52e5-c1ad-047d-cfbdf29bbca0@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On 8/10/20 12:17 PM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: > > > On 8/7/20 4:34 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > >> The OCO looks nice. Timing gear maybe? > > Looks like a mid 70's - early 80's three-axis fluxgate magnetometer. > The precision of a fluxgate is a direct function of the stability of the > frequency source that is driving the drive winding, so an OCXO makes > perfect sense. > > My offhand guess would be oil and gas exploration. > I recall that the petroleum industry was among the earliest of adopters of NMR logging, hailing back to the late 1950s/early 1960s for use in oil exploration. Medical use was much later. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 14:59:34 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:59:34 -0400 Subject: DEC VR260 service docs / common failure modes? In-Reply-To: References: <084b05fd-0187-9c13-acca-f513c637d460@comcast.net> Message-ID: Correction https://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/VR-260/ B On Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 2:28 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > I just remember wrestling with one of those and determined I did not have > a matching system. So I traded for something else about 2 years ago, or > so. Mine is photographed on vintagecomputer.net/dec/vr260 I believe > Bill > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 1:53 PM Douglas Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> That's a very interesting comment, got me to thinking. The VR150 was >> connected to a working Vax Station 3100 with the proper DEC cable and I >> observed the non-working behavior. However, the color RGB output from >> the VS3100 works just fine, I boot the machine into VMS and runs just OK >> (but using a different monitor and video cable). >> >> In the VS3100, at least the one I have M78, I think the monochrome video >> output is separate from the RGB outputs. I wonder if that part of the >> video circuit is not working correctly? >> >> I understand your comment about the rate, the VR150 is a non-standard >> video refresh rate. I think it is hard wired just for the DEC video >> output. >> >> Doug >> >> On 8/10/2020 1:37 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> > One comment...if you don't have the correct cable and a system that is >> set >> > for the correct refresh rate, it may appear that the monitor does not >> > work. Be sure you have compatible equipment. This was a specialized >> > display. >> > Bill >> > >> > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 1:19 PM Douglas Taylor via cctalk < >> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> >> Josh; >> >> >> >> I have a DEC VR150 that is nearly functional; shows full screen but the >> >> H/V are not in any sync at all. Would love to use it with a VaxStation >> >> 3100. >> >> >> >> Opened it up and found it quite a complicated monitor, not like a >> simple >> >> PC monochrome monitor. >> >> >> >> Purchased a microfiche manual off ebay, but haven't been able to view >> it >> >> yet. >> >> >> >> Eager to hear how you do with your larger monitor. >> >> >> >> Doug >> >> >> >> On 8/9/2020 3:10 AM, Josh Dersch via cctech wrote: >> >>> Hi all -- >> >>> >> >>> Picked up a non-functional but otherwise nice looking DEC VR260 (19" >> b&w >> >>> monitor) on the cheap, hoping to use it with my VAXstation 2000. From >> >> what >> >>> I've read, these were never the most reliable displays. Curious if >> >> anyone >> >>> has any information on common failure modes, or has service docs >> >> squirreled >> >>> away somewhere. I've at least found schematics, so I have something >> to >> >> go >> >>> on, but it's not exactly the most straightforward design I've poked >> at. >> >>> >> >>> Right now when powered up I hear a repeated low hum from the >> transformer >> >>> followed by a soft ticking noise so I'm guessing I've got power supply >> >>> issues at the very least. Unsure what I should expect the monitor to >> do >> >> if >> >>> it's not being fed a valid video signal (I haven't yet tried to hook >> the >> >>> VS2000 up to it) -- whether it'll go into free-running mode or do >> mostly >> >>> nothing until it has something to sync to... >> >>> >> >>> Thanks as always, >> >>> Josh >> >> >> >> >> >> From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Mon Aug 10 15:30:51 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:30:51 -0500 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a52aa7c-00af-1197-4c96-ce8303ee0387@thereinhardts.org> On 8/10/2020 12:24 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I'm interested in getting one of these, but browsing the manuals it appears there is software that is installed on the VAX to use them with VMS. > Not necessarily a VAX, but on something that either has DECnet or MOP.? Most, but not all DECservers download it's OS from the network. So you need something on the the local network with the correct file to load when the DECserver boots and makes the request. > Is the software required to attach terminals and login to various Vax's? Or is it for management of the Dec Server 300? > It's the DECserver's OS so yes to both. > If the software is required, where do I find it?? Is it in the hobbyist distribution?? Is there a VAX and ALPHA version? If you have access to any of the VMS software distribution CD's it on there. For the DS300 it would be in the DS3C022 directory on the appropriate CD.? According to Wikipedia you need the SH1601ENG.SYS file Online images of the CD are available several places online.? www.archive.org has some, VAXHaven as several > > Doug > For downloading the file into the DECserver you need an OpenVMS system with DECnet and that kit you get from the distribution CD will tell you how to install.? Or you can follow this instruction to set up downloading from a Linux system A DECserver 300 installation manual Some of the software was available on one of the VMS Freeware CDs.? I don't remember which one though and it's not in my notes. -- John H. Reinhardt From chris at groessler.org Mon Aug 10 16:01:03 2020 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 23:01:03 +0200 Subject: Unix text processing software with daisy wheel output Message-ID: <8d9f999c-569f-4c15-5ff4-81fafa19bac4@groessler.org> Hi, I want to use my daisy wheel printer to create letters and memos and similar (rather simple) texts. What can I use to write the text? I think "special effects" with daisy wheel printers are "bold" and "underline" parts. And "double stroke" (if that's the correct word, I mean a space char between each char). groff (or any *roff) comes to my mind. Are there other options? regards, chris From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Aug 10 16:06:51 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:06:51 -0400 Subject: Unix text processing software with daisy wheel output In-Reply-To: <8d9f999c-569f-4c15-5ff4-81fafa19bac4@groessler.org> References: <8d9f999c-569f-4c15-5ff4-81fafa19bac4@groessler.org> Message-ID: <7BB10219-AFA7-4844-B9A0-1DDE63D636F0@comcast.net> Depends on the OS, and the model of the printer, and what its interface is. If it's a printer that DEC software understands, the WPS family of word processing software would be a nice option. There's WPS-8, WPS-PLUS for RSTS, various others probably as well. paul > On Aug 10, 2020, at 5:01 PM, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > I want to use my daisy wheel printer to create letters and memos and similar (rather simple) texts. > > What can I use to write the text? > > I think "special effects" with daisy wheel printers are "bold" and "underline" parts. And "double stroke" (if that's the correct word, I mean a space char between each char). > > groff (or any *roff) comes to my mind. Are there other options? > > regards, > chris > > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 16:10:16 2020 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:10:16 -0400 Subject: Unix text processing software with daisy wheel output In-Reply-To: <8d9f999c-569f-4c15-5ff4-81fafa19bac4@groessler.org> References: <8d9f999c-569f-4c15-5ff4-81fafa19bac4@groessler.org> Message-ID: I use `groff` for some tasks like that. If it's a simple document I'll only ever do once, I often just open it with a text editor and set the editor to display a bar on the 76th column, and manually hit return :) There are probably Markdown preprocessors that either produce fixed width text or input suitable for `groff`. Thanks, Jonathan On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:01 PM Christian Groessler via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I want to use my daisy wheel printer to create letters and memos and > similar (rather simple) texts. > > What can I use to write the text? > > I think "special effects" with daisy wheel printers are "bold" and > "underline" parts. And "double stroke" (if that's the correct word, I > mean a space char between each char). > > groff (or any *roff) comes to my mind. Are there other options? > > regards, > chris > > > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Aug 10 16:31:49 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:31:49 -0400 Subject: Circuit board trace repair... References: <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$.ref@verizon.net> Message-ID: <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$@verizon.net> Hi All, I'm going to be attempting to repair, both cosmetically and operationally, a circuit board that had a strip of 12 volt trace "blown off" of it by a short. The fiberglass is clean and there was no solder resist in the affected area. I'm considering using 3M 1183 adhesive tinned foil tape for the job. Has anyone else done this? Could you recommend this or another product? Any tips? Thanks, Bill Sudbrink -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 10 16:44:13 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 14:44:13 -0700 Subject: weird rack unit In-Reply-To: References: <50d8eac0-52e5-c1ad-047d-cfbdf29bbca0@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <51604ab4-fc72-ba7b-c055-b962547afb3a@bitsavers.org> On 8/10/20 12:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 8/10/20 12:17 PM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 8/7/20 4:34 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >> >>> The OCO looks nice. Timing gear maybe? >> There was a discussion of this on the cctalk discord It was made for the USGS to study the earth's magnetic field From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Mon Aug 10 16:45:27 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 16:45:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Circuit board trace repair... In-Reply-To: <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$@verizon.net> References: <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$.ref@verizon.net> <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <801484009.1088144.1597095927317@email.ionos.com> > On August 10, 2020 at 4:31 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > > Hi All, > > > I'm going to be attempting to repair, both cosmetically and operationally, acircuit board that had a strip of 12 volt trace "blown off" of it by ashort. The fiberglass is clean and there was no solder resist in theaffected area. I'm considering using 3M 1183 adhesive tinned foil tape forthe job. Has anyone else done this? Could you recommend this or anotherproduct? Any tips? > I've never tried it, but maybe one of these pens that draws tracks with conductive ink? https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/chemtronics/CW2000/CW2000-ND/1929216 Will From drb at msu.edu Mon Aug 10 16:49:54 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:49:54 -0400 Subject: Unix text processing software with daisy wheel output In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 10 Aug 2020 23:01:03 +0200.) <8d9f999c-569f-4c15-5ff4-81fafa19bac4@groessler.org> References: <8d9f999c-569f-4c15-5ff4-81fafa19bac4@groessler.org> Message-ID: <20200810214954.720B1282675@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I want to use my daisy wheel printer to create letters and memos and > similar (rather simple) texts. What can I use to write the text? I worked on a v7 system that had a troff driver for iirc Diablo 630 printers, but I don't see it in stock v7. For groff, you'd probably hunt up a dvi-to-630 converter to do the same thing. > I think "special effects" with daisy wheel printers are "bold" and > "underline" parts. And "double stroke" (if that's the correct word, I > mean a space char between each char). Depending on the environment, it may be possible to change wheels in mid document to get italics or font changes. On a daisywheel, bold is generally done by double striking, and if the printer is capable (the Vector Graphic micros with their Qume Sprint daisywheel printers did this) micro-motion in between strikes. Underscore is obviously fairly straightforward, as are overstrikes for e.g. line-through or to construct some special characters that might not be on the wheel, like cent signs, section symbols. De From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Aug 10 17:04:45 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:04:45 -0500 Subject: Circuit board trace repair... In-Reply-To: <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$@verizon.net> References: <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$.ref@verizon.net> <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5F31C47D.4020208@pico-systems.com> On 08/10/2020 04:31 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > Hi All, > > > > I'm going to be attempting to repair, both cosmetically and operationally, a > circuit board that had a strip of 12 volt trace "blown off" of it by a > short. The fiberglass is clean and there was no solder resist in the > affected area. I'm considering using 3M 1183 adhesive tinned foil tape for > the job. Has anyone else done this? Could you recommend this or another > product? Any tips? > I usually repair these with solid copper wire, but then I'm not trying to make it cosmetic, too. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 10 19:45:23 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:45:23 -0700 Subject: weird rack unit In-Reply-To: <51604ab4-fc72-ba7b-c055-b962547afb3a@bitsavers.org> References: <50d8eac0-52e5-c1ad-047d-cfbdf29bbca0@mainecoon.com> <51604ab4-fc72-ba7b-c055-b962547afb3a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4a90e012-9a1d-858d-f5dc-1b6eb288ac33@sydex.com> On 8/10/20 2:44 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 8/10/20 12:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 8/10/20 12:17 PM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 8/7/20 4:34 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> The OCO looks nice. Timing gear maybe? >>> > > There was a discussion of this on the cctalk discord > It was made for the USGS to study the earth's magnetic field Anyone remember the Popular Electronics "Carl and Jerry" episode that involved a baby bottle full of water with a coil wrapped around it? "The Educated Nursing Bottle" April, 1964, PDF page 82 here; https://hobbydocbox.com/Radio/69634003-Popular-1964-electronics-35-cents-talkie-cb-talkie-it-p-65-cuit-power-noise-lip-steal-your-cb-ers-in-tornado.html An interesting article about using a 7090 to determine the cause of WWI also. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 10 19:57:20 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:57:20 -0700 Subject: Circuit board trace repair... In-Reply-To: <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$@verizon.net> References: <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$.ref@verizon.net> <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <45623acd-6457-af74-74e1-d263ba9db67d@sydex.com> On 8/10/20 2:31 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > Hi All, > > > > I'm going to be attempting to repair, both cosmetically and operationally, a > circuit board that had a strip of 12 volt trace "blown off" of it by a > short. The fiberglass is clean and there was no solder resist in the > affected area. I'm considering using 3M 1183 adhesive tinned foil tape for > the job. Has anyone else done this? Could you recommend this or another > product? Any tips? > I've used AWG30 wire-wrap wire to accomplish similar repairs. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 14:29:50 2020 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 14:29:50 -0500 Subject: Virtual VCF Midwest! Message-ID: So we're all stuck inside with no fabulous midwestern computer festivals to go to, so let's try to do this thing online. You produce the videos, we'll show them on the VCFMW Youtube channel using their "Premiere" feature to create a full day of classic computing presentations, along with a live chat with the creators (that's you) on YouTube as well as an all-day open chat on Discord/IRC. If you've got an idea for a video (criteria: on-topic, low noise), email us before September 1 (the sooner the better!) at virtual at vcfmw.org with: - How you?d like to be credited (real name or alias ok) - A one-line title/topic for your video - A short paragraph as an Abstract (plaintext, but can include URLs) - What time of day (morning, afternoon, or evening) you?d prefer your video shown If accepted, completed videos are due to us by Noon on Monday, September 7th. You can get your video to us in one of three ways: - Provide a download link for us to pick it up (FTP, dropbox, mega.nz, uucp, fidonet, etc.) - Upload via anonymous FTP to ftp.oldskool.org in the /incoming directory - If you have no edit capability and would like to stream directly to Youtube from your phone or tablet, go ahead and do so, making your video ?Unlisted?, then email us the link and we?ll pick it up. Be sure to include some or all of the filename in your email so that we match videos up with the right people. The full linkable announcements are here: https://mailchi.mp/1f03fef220b3/vcf-midwest-15-virtual-event? http://vcfmw.org/virtual.html -j From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 14:30:01 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 14:30:01 -0500 Subject: weird rack unit In-Reply-To: <50d8eac0-52e5-c1ad-047d-cfbdf29bbca0@mainecoon.com> References: <50d8eac0-52e5-c1ad-047d-cfbdf29bbca0@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: there was equipment like up here in the 60's for exploration that actualy was featured in national geographic in 68? for looking for ore bodies On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 2:18 PM Christian Kennedy via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 8/7/20 4:34 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > > The OCO looks nice. Timing gear maybe? > > Looks like a mid 70's - early 80's three-axis fluxgate magnetometer. > The precision of a fluxgate is a direct function of the stability of the > frequency source that is driving the drive winding, so an OCXO makes > perfect sense. > > My offhand guess would be oil and gas exploration. > > -- > Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. > chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 > http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 14:33:32 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 14:33:32 -0500 Subject: weird rack unit In-Reply-To: <51604ab4-fc72-ba7b-c055-b962547afb3a@bitsavers.org> References: <50d8eac0-52e5-c1ad-047d-cfbdf29bbca0@mainecoon.com> <51604ab4-fc72-ba7b-c055-b962547afb3a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: yea witch the us gov had some sorta station setup st the airport here in northern mb fo 30+ yrs untill nassa left when bush cut the ballon program funding On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 4:51 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 8/10/20 12:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 8/10/20 12:17 PM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> > >> On 8/7/20 4:34 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>> The OCO looks nice. Timing gear maybe? > >> > > There was a discussion of this on the cctalk discord > It was made for the USGS to study the earth's magnetic field > > > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 11:31:35 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 00:31:35 +0800 Subject: Altair 8800 reproduction In-Reply-To: References: <91EFF5A3-9B65-4854-B07A-033BD9FD3AFA@gmail.com> Message-ID: The Altair-Druino kit arrived yesterday morning. I built it and am very impressed. In many ways it is better and more useful than a real Altair 8800 or a 8800c. Cheers Tom Hunter On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 9:07 PM Tom Hunter wrote: > I am not the most patient person. :-) > While waiting for my Altair-Duino to arrive in the mail I discovered a > cool JavaScript based implementation. > It allows me to start playing with the Altair 8800 front panel and > exercise the "machine". It does a fairly decent job. > > https://s2js.com/altair/ > > Cheers > Tom Hunter > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 2:11 PM Tom Hunter wrote: > >> I thought about it long and hard. A fully configured Altair 8800c would >> be at least $1200 plus shipping to Australia from all the different >> component suppliers at least another $600. I would end up with a "real" >> system but some parts wouldn't quite be real. For example the floppy drives >> are emulated via a USB cable and a server running on a PC. It would be >> possible to add real 8" or 5 1/4" drives plus power supplies plus cases and >> cabling at great additional cost. At the end it would still be some hybrid >> system with some modern bits substituting the original components. I would >> have a nice S-100 bus system but it wouldn't be an authentic Altair 8800a. >> So I decided to go down the fully emulated path and looked at Mike >> Douglas's Altair 8800 clone and the Altair-Duino. >> >> I ended up buying the Altair-Duino a very promising Arduino Due (ARM) >> based clone similar to Mike Douglas's clone but without the nice metal case. >> This Altair-Duino kit is affordable, is open source and has a powerful >> hardware platform. Now that I am retired I am time rich and money poor. >> :-) >> >> The "Standard" kit is $149.95: >> >> https://www.adwaterandstir.com/product/altair-8800-emulator-kit/ >> >> Strangely the website says there is no stock available from the guy >> himself, but Tindie has 4 in stock: >> >> >> https://www.tindie.com/products/kb0wwp/altair-duino-standard/?pt=ac_prod_search >> >> I can't wait for it to arrive. It is a long way from Minnesota to Western >> Australia. Covid-19 doesn't speed it up either. :-( >> >> Cheers >> Tom Hunter >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 1:12 AM Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 10:15 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> The easiest and more affordable path would be the Altair >>> 8800 clone but somehow I am more attracted to the non-emulated >>> implementation. >>> >>> Understood space, time, and money are always factors, but I?m curious >>> whether that?s an XOR function or a simple OR (which would be satisfied >>> with both)? Having played in software on ?modern? hardware might be pretty >>> useful when it?s time to start bringing up the reproduction hardware. >>> >> From rich.cini at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 13:15:24 2020 From: rich.cini at gmail.com (Richard Cini) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:15:24 -0400 Subject: LSI-11 Simulator from Bob Meister Message-ID: <2DB79A73-929A-4511-BF4A-AB6CFB19A003@gmail.com> All ? ??????????????? I?m cleaning out my shop (I?m swimming in stuff so I will be creating a ?to go? list at some point), and this week I was going through boxes of magazine articles I saved. One is an article by Bob Meister that appeared in the July 1996 issue of Circuit Cellar with an LSI-11 simulator program. I was able to locate the C-source and get it to compile properly after some tweaking. ??????????????? The article says that he had to create a custom RT-11 driver for it, and it implies that it can use an image of an diskette, but it really doesn?t say what kind (assuming RX01). I wanted to pose this to the group to see if anyone ever heard of this program, used it, or otherwise knows Bob (email address in the article is no longer valid) so I can try to fill in the blanks a bit. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 23:24:32 2020 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 23:24:32 -0500 Subject: Card edge connectors for individual Qbus wings Message-ID: <97a1e173-3003-afa2-bc8a-abd728b1459a@gmail.com> Greetings, everyone... Does anybody know where I can source card edge connectors (with eyelets or pins on the other side, hopefully) that would fit individual wings in a Qbus board? Carlos. From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 00:03:04 2020 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 00:03:04 -0500 Subject: HMS Victory "afloat" again on high-tech, hull-protecting supports Message-ID: Seems like? sort of an "active suspension" system to try to preserve a 255 years-old ship.? I wonder if the hardware and software involved stands a chance of being supported a mere five more years. https://newatlas.com/military/hms-victory-floats-hull-protecting-high-tech-supports/ Carlos. From lars at nocrew.org Thu Aug 13 00:23:08 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 05:23:08 +0000 Subject: LSI-11 Simulator from Bob Meister In-Reply-To: <2DB79A73-929A-4511-BF4A-AB6CFB19A003@gmail.com> (Richard Cini via cctalk's message of "Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:15:24 -0400") References: <2DB79A73-929A-4511-BF4A-AB6CFB19A003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7wh7t7w24j.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Richard Cini wrote: > an article by Bob Meister that appeared in the July 1996 issue of > Circuit Cellar with an LSI-11 simulator program. I found this by Robert P. Meister at Battelle Columbus labs. It mentions an LSI-II. https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a071102.pdf From lars at nocrew.org Thu Aug 13 00:23:08 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 05:23:08 +0000 Subject: LSI-11 Simulator from Bob Meister In-Reply-To: <2DB79A73-929A-4511-BF4A-AB6CFB19A003@gmail.com> (Richard Cini via cctalk's message of "Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:15:24 -0400") References: <2DB79A73-929A-4511-BF4A-AB6CFB19A003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7wh7t7w24j.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Richard Cini wrote: > an article by Bob Meister that appeared in the July 1996 issue of > Circuit Cellar with an LSI-11 simulator program. I found this by Robert P. Meister at Battelle Columbus labs. It mentions an LSI-II. https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a071102.pdf From doc at vaxen.net Wed Aug 12 17:33:19 2020 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:33:19 -0500 Subject: Circuit board trace repair... In-Reply-To: <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$@verizon.net> References: <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$.ref@verizon.net> <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$@verizon.net> Message-ID: When I worked for Texas Instruments in '83, we used 30ga 24K gold wire... I use plain wire-wrap wire for board repairs, and from the looks of most of my pre-1990 circuit boards, that's period correct. The only issue I'd have with that 3M tape would be cutting it narrow enough to fit. Otherwise, it's purpose-built for what you're doing. Doc On 8/10/20 4:31 PM, William Sudbrink via cctech wrote: > Hi All, > > > > I'm going to be attempting to repair, both cosmetically and operationally, a > circuit board that had a strip of 12 volt trace "blown off" of it by a > short. The fiberglass is clean and there was no solder resist in the > affected area. I'm considering using 3M 1183 adhesive tinned foil tape for > the job. Has anyone else done this? Could you recommend this or another > product? Any tips? > > > > Thanks, > > Bill Sudbrink > > > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 13 06:20:06 2020 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 06:20:06 -0500 Subject: Circuit board trace repair... In-Reply-To: References: <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$.ref@verizon.net> <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20200813113538.F1985275D3@mx1.ezwind.net> At 05:33 PM 8/12/2020, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: >When I worked for Texas Instruments in '83, we used 30ga 24K gold wire... And these days, that's sold by the inch? - John From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 09:33:16 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 07:33:16 -0700 Subject: Card edge connectors for individual Qbus wings In-Reply-To: <97a1e173-3003-afa2-bc8a-abd728b1459a@gmail.com> References: <97a1e173-3003-afa2-bc8a-abd728b1459a@gmail.com> Message-ID: Do you want something to plug into a backplane, or something to plug a board into? If the latter, Douglas Electronics lists a double wide connector with their part number 72-125C-EL. http://www.douglas.com/index.php/72-125c-el.html They also list double wide and quad wide extender cards, which optionally include those connectors on the top. http://www.douglas.com/index.php/6-de-11.html http://www.douglas.com/index.php/6-de-8.html I have purchased extender cards from them in the past. On Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 9:24 PM Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Greetings, everyone... > > Does anybody know where I can source card edge connectors (with eyelets > or pins on the other side, hopefully) that would fit individual wings in > a Qbus board? > > Carlos. > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 09:40:23 2020 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:40:23 -0400 Subject: Card edge connectors for individual Qbus wings In-Reply-To: References: <97a1e173-3003-afa2-bc8a-abd728b1459a@gmail.com> Message-ID: Douglas's boards are good quality, but IMO their edge connector socket is inappropriate for DEC boards. It's not deep enough, it does make contact but on e.g. the extender cards, it doesn't provide enough mechanical support for the boards, like the old DEC extenders do. I suppose it's what we're stuck with for now, though. It'd probably be OK in a backplane with card guides. Their prototyping boards are also solid, I've ordered from them on several different projects. We now have our own DEC pattern quad height prototyping board, too: https://www.tindie.com/products/glitchwrks/gw-dec-1-prototyping-board-for-pdp-11-pdp-8-etc/ It's pad-per-hole, no edge connector pinning is assumed, so that it can be used on anything that takes DEC connectors (the need that prompted it was work on a VT05). The only annoyance with the Douglas protoboards is that some of them assume what's going to be power and ground, and you end up having to cut traces. Ours can also be sheared in half down the middle to make two dual-height cards. Thanks, Jonathan On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 10:33 AM Glen Slick via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Do you want something to plug into a backplane, or something to plug a > board into? > > If the latter, Douglas Electronics lists a double wide connector with their > part number 72-125C-EL. > > http://www.douglas.com/index.php/72-125c-el.html > > They also list double wide and quad wide extender cards, which optionally > include those connectors on the top. > > http://www.douglas.com/index.php/6-de-11.html > > http://www.douglas.com/index.php/6-de-8.html > > I have purchased extender cards from them in the past. > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 9:24 PM Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Greetings, everyone... > > > > Does anybody know where I can source card edge connectors (with eyelets > > or pins on the other side, hopefully) that would fit individual wings in > > a Qbus board? > > > > Carlos. > > > From lars at nocrew.org Thu Aug 13 11:04:05 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:04:05 +0000 Subject: LSI-11 Simulator from Bob Meister In-Reply-To: <0CCB61B4-0E22-4B45-836F-77A8594476F2@gmail.com> (Richard Cini's message of "Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:00:51 -0400") References: <2DB79A73-929A-4511-BF4A-AB6CFB19A003@gmail.com> <7wh7t7w24j.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <0CCB61B4-0E22-4B45-836F-77A8594476F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7wlfiiv8ga.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Richard Cini wrote: > I found this by Robert P. Meister at Battelle Columbus labs. > > The source code to the LSI11 says "R.W.Meister" so it's likely the > same chap. But P. isn't the same as W. :-( From lars at nocrew.org Thu Aug 13 11:04:05 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:04:05 +0000 Subject: LSI-11 Simulator from Bob Meister In-Reply-To: <0CCB61B4-0E22-4B45-836F-77A8594476F2@gmail.com> (Richard Cini's message of "Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:00:51 -0400") References: <2DB79A73-929A-4511-BF4A-AB6CFB19A003@gmail.com> <7wh7t7w24j.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <0CCB61B4-0E22-4B45-836F-77A8594476F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7wlfiiv8ga.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Richard Cini wrote: > I found this by Robert P. Meister at Battelle Columbus labs. > > The source code to the LSI11 says "R.W.Meister" so it's likely the > same chap. But P. isn't the same as W. :-( From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Aug 13 11:26:58 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:26:58 -0400 Subject: LSI-11 Simulator from Bob Meister In-Reply-To: <7wlfiiv8ga.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <2DB79A73-929A-4511-BF4A-AB6CFB19A003@gmail.com> <7wh7t7w24j.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <0CCB61B4-0E22-4B45-836F-77A8594476F2@gmail.com> <7wlfiiv8ga.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: Ha, yes, P != W. I have actually found several Bob Meisters, but it's like Where's Waldo. ?On 8/13/20, 12:04 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk" wrote: Richard Cini wrote: > I found this by Robert P. Meister at Battelle Columbus labs. > > The source code to the LSI11 says "R.W.Meister" so it's likely the > same chap. But P. isn't the same as W. :-( From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Aug 13 11:26:58 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:26:58 -0400 Subject: LSI-11 Simulator from Bob Meister In-Reply-To: <7wlfiiv8ga.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <2DB79A73-929A-4511-BF4A-AB6CFB19A003@gmail.com> <7wh7t7w24j.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <0CCB61B4-0E22-4B45-836F-77A8594476F2@gmail.com> <7wlfiiv8ga.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: Ha, yes, P != W. I have actually found several Bob Meisters, but it's like Where's Waldo. ?On 8/13/20, 12:04 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk" wrote: Richard Cini wrote: > I found this by Robert P. Meister at Battelle Columbus labs. > > The source code to the LSI11 says "R.W.Meister" so it's likely the > same chap. But P. isn't the same as W. :-( From lars at nocrew.org Thu Aug 13 11:48:47 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:48:47 +0000 Subject: LSI-11 Simulator from Bob Meister In-Reply-To: (Richard Cini's message of "Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:26:58 -0400") References: <2DB79A73-929A-4511-BF4A-AB6CFB19A003@gmail.com> <7wh7t7w24j.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <0CCB61B4-0E22-4B45-836F-77A8594476F2@gmail.com> <7wlfiiv8ga.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wa6yyv6ds.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Richard Cini wrote: > Ha, yes, P != W. I have actually found several Bob Meisters, but it's > like Where's Waldo. People should have unique names to make it easier for us stalkers! I have been trying to find Edward H. Black, ex MIT Dynamic Modeling. From lars at nocrew.org Thu Aug 13 11:48:47 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:48:47 +0000 Subject: LSI-11 Simulator from Bob Meister In-Reply-To: (Richard Cini's message of "Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:26:58 -0400") References: <2DB79A73-929A-4511-BF4A-AB6CFB19A003@gmail.com> <7wh7t7w24j.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <0CCB61B4-0E22-4B45-836F-77A8594476F2@gmail.com> <7wlfiiv8ga.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wa6yyv6ds.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Richard Cini wrote: > Ha, yes, P != W. I have actually found several Bob Meisters, but it's > like Where's Waldo. People should have unique names to make it easier for us stalkers! I have been trying to find Edward H. Black, ex MIT Dynamic Modeling. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Aug 13 12:01:35 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:01:35 -0700 Subject: LSI-11 Simulator from Bob Meister In-Reply-To: References: <2DB79A73-929A-4511-BF4A-AB6CFB19A003@gmail.com> <7wh7t7w24j.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <0CCB61B4-0E22-4B45-836F-77A8594476F2@gmail.com> <7wlfiiv8ga.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On 8/13/2020 9:26 AM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > Ha, yes, P != W. I have actually found several Bob Meisters, but it's like Where's Waldo. > > ?On 8/13/20, 12:04 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk" wrote: > > Richard Cini wrote: > > I found this by Robert P. Meister at Battelle Columbus labs. > > > > The source code to the LSI11 says "R.W.Meister" so it's likely the > > same chap. > > But P. isn't the same as W. :-( > Robert P Meister has an entry on findagrave. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/119315813/robert-p-meister The Robert W's were all 1917, 1920 and the like birthdates, and probably not the guy. thanks Jim From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 13:01:09 2020 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:01:09 -0500 Subject: Card edge connectors for individual Qbus wings In-Reply-To: References: <97a1e173-3003-afa2-bc8a-abd728b1459a@gmail.com> Message-ID: Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > Do you want something to plug into a backplane, or something to plug a > board into? > > If the latter, Douglas Electronics lists a double wide connector with their > part number 72-125C-EL. > -snip- > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 9:24 PM Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> Greetings, everyone... >> >> Does anybody know where I can source card edge connectors (with eyelets >> or pins on the other side, hopefully) that would fit individual wings in >> a Qbus board? >> >> Carlos. Thank you! that's exactly what I need.? I need to plug some boards (only one at a time) into it for lack of a backplane. Carlos. From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 13:03:26 2020 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:03:26 -0500 Subject: Card edge connectors for individual Qbus wings In-Reply-To: References: <97a1e173-3003-afa2-bc8a-abd728b1459a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <348a5791-f230-86ed-a536-a76a10f82bc1@gmail.com> systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > Douglas's boards are good quality, but IMO their edge connector socket is > inappropriate for DEC boards. It's not deep enough, it does make contact > but on e.g. the extender cards, it doesn't provide enough mechanical > support for the boards, like the old DEC extenders do. I suppose it's what > we're stuck with for now, though. It'd probably be OK in a backplane with > card guides. > > Their prototyping boards are also solid, I've ordered from them on several > different projects. > > We now have our own DEC pattern quad height prototyping board, too: > > https://www.tindie.com/products/glitchwrks/gw-dec-1-prototyping-board-for-pdp-11-pdp-8-etc/ > > It's pad-per-hole, no edge connector pinning is assumed, so that it can be > used on anything that takes DEC connectors (the need that prompted it was > work on a VT05). The only annoyance with the Douglas protoboards is that > some of them assume what's going to be power and ground, and you end up > having to cut traces. Ours can also be sheared in half down the middle to > make two dual-height cards. > > Thanks, > Jonathan Thanks for the advice and info.? As long as it makes contact, it will be fine for my purposes. Carlos. From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Aug 13 14:23:41 2020 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:23:41 -0500 Subject: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation In-Reply-To: References: <91EFF5A3-9B65-4854-B07A-033BD9FD3AFA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3949527b-7b58-1098-6edb-8dfb1d7d6608@ubanproductions.com> I have a DEC VRE01 terminal that I bought NIB years ago. For those who don't know about this model, it has a flat plasma (orange/black) display of about 17". It worked when I bought it, but now, years later, I tried powering it up and the light comes on for a moment and goes out. I suspect a power supply issue, but bitsavers does not seem to have this one. Does anyone have schematic (or other) documentation for it? --tnx --tom From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Aug 13 15:38:39 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:38:39 -0400 Subject: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation In-Reply-To: <3949527b-7b58-1098-6edb-8dfb1d7d6608@ubanproductions.com> References: <91EFF5A3-9B65-4854-B07A-033BD9FD3AFA@gmail.com> <3949527b-7b58-1098-6edb-8dfb1d7d6608@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: You may want to see if the PLATO terminal documentation is any help, look on Bitsavers under University of Illinois. Those plasma display power supplies are hairy devices; the panel is actually a memory device and the power supply produces a high voltage AC waveform to make that work. Those panels normally light up around the rim; the fact you see that briefly but not sustained gives some hope that adjusting may be all that is needed. That's quite a display; the usual plasma panels were 8 inches square, 512 by 512 pixels. I'm guessing this is a 1k by 1k pixel display, which I have seen once or twice, at SAI in San Diego in some military displays. I know a plasma terminal expert; I've forwarded your message to him. paul > On Aug 13, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > > I have a DEC VRE01 terminal that I bought NIB years ago. For those who don't know about this model, > it has a flat plasma (orange/black) display of about 17". It worked when I bought it, but now, years > later, I tried powering it up and the light comes on for a moment and goes out. I suspect a power > supply issue, but bitsavers does not seem to have this one. > > Does anyone have schematic (or other) documentation for it? > > --tnx > --tom From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Aug 13 16:25:37 2020 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:25:37 -0500 Subject: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation In-Reply-To: References: <91EFF5A3-9B65-4854-B07A-033BD9FD3AFA@gmail.com> <3949527b-7b58-1098-6edb-8dfb1d7d6608@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Thanks Paul. Yes, I know the old Plato plasma display terminals well, having grown up with them as my introduction to computers. The DEC VR01 is a much newer design, though I'm sure it has some similar properties, including a high voltage display. Unfortunately, the display itself never lights at this point, just an LED to indicate power is on. I suspect the low voltage is at least partially working and the high (or other) is detected to be out and so the whole supply shuts down. This is a typical design for DEC supplies. Thanks for putting me in touch with your expert. --tom On 8/13/20 3:38 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > You may want to see if the PLATO terminal documentation is any help, look on Bitsavers under University of Illinois. Those plasma display power supplies are hairy devices; the panel is actually a memory device and the power supply produces a high voltage AC waveform to make that work. Those panels normally light up around the rim; the fact you see that briefly but not sustained gives some hope that adjusting may be all that is needed. > > That's quite a display; the usual plasma panels were 8 inches square, 512 by 512 pixels. I'm guessing this is a 1k by 1k pixel display, which I have seen once or twice, at SAI in San Diego in some military displays. > > I know a plasma terminal expert; I've forwarded your message to him. > > paul > >> On Aug 13, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >> >> I have a DEC VRE01 terminal that I bought NIB years ago. For those who don't know about this model, >> it has a flat plasma (orange/black) display of about 17". It worked when I bought it, but now, years >> later, I tried powering it up and the light comes on for a moment and goes out. I suspect a power >> supply issue, but bitsavers does not seem to have this one. >> >> Does anyone have schematic (or other) documentation for it? >> >> --tnx >> --tom > From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Aug 13 16:29:35 2020 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:29:35 -0500 Subject: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation In-Reply-To: <1B34099BE42B4D13818C17570BD8BE07@simon> References: <1B34099BE42B4D13818C17570BD8BE07@simon> Message-ID: Thanks Aaron. The DEC display is quite a bit newer than the old Plato design. I had one of the Plato terminals at one time and am quite familiar with them. I also had a digivue standalone display at one time, but don't recall what I did with it over the course of the years. At that time, I did have a full manual for it, including schematics, but I'm sure that went with the display to it's new home. I need to open the DEC VRE01 to see what the design looks like. The newer design allowed it to be very compact... --tom On 8/13/20 3:53 PM, Aaron Woolfson wrote: > Here's a photo of one of the restored PLATO terminals (which had the plasma display) > Does the power supply for the PLASMA look like the one in this photo of one of the terminals with > the covers off? > ? > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Aaron Woolfson > *To:* paulkoning at comcast.net ; uban at ubanproductions.com > ; cctalk at classiccmp.org > *Sent:* Thursday, August 13, 2020 1:50 PM > *Subject:* Re: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation > > Hi Tom. > ? > Thanks for your message.? Well, the Plasma panels use a pretty unique.? I'm attaching the > precise waveforms that the Plasma Panel expects to see in order to achieve the illumination of > the dot. And while this may not be exactly or precisely what you're looking for, this will > explain much about the technology involved.? The fact that you can see any illumination at all > is perhaps the most important part - beacuse the gas is probably there, and the "actuation" > voltage might just not be high enough, or the sustainer voltage might have an issue. > ? > The power supplies were manufactured by Electro Plasma and were typically separate from the > actual unit itself.? I am going to see whether I can find the schematics for those power > supplies, which discuss the characteristics . > ? > Also, check to see whether the back of the plasma panel itself has an edge connector that is > similar to the attached TYCO specified connector. That might give you some insights into where > to go.? > ? > When I gave all my equipment and test gear to the LCM up in Seattle, I am pretty sure that they > also got a lot of the original manuals and notes that had been hand written.? But I typically > had scans of most everything.? I will see what I can find.... > ? > > ----- Original Message ----- > Subject: Re: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation > Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:38:39 -0400 > From: Paul Koning > > > You may want to see if the PLATO terminal documentation is any help, look on Bitsavers under > University of Illinois.? Those plasma display power supplies are hairy devices; the panel is > actually a memory device and the power supply produces a high voltage AC waveform to make that > work.? Those panels normally light up around the rim; the fact you see that briefly but not > sustained gives some hope that adjusting may be all that is needed. > > That's quite a display; the usual plasma panels were 8 inches square, 512 by 512 pixels.? I'm > guessing this is a 1k by 1k pixel display, which I have seen once or twice, at SAI in San Diego > in some military displays. > > I know a plasma terminal expert; I've forwarded your message to him. > > paul > > > On Aug 13, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I have a DEC VRE01 terminal that I bought NIB years ago. For those who don't know about this > model, > > it has a flat plasma (orange/black) display of about 17". It worked when I bought it, but now, > years > > later, I tried powering it up and the light comes on for a moment and goes out. I suspect a power > > supply issue, but bitsavers does not seem to have this one. > > > > Does anyone have schematic (or other) documentation for it? > > > > --tnx > > --tom > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 13 17:04:39 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 23:04:39 +0100 Subject: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation In-Reply-To: References: <1B34099BE42B4D13818C17570BD8BE07@simon> Message-ID: <03eca605-cd09-52b6-e2bc-c6346040e0f1@ntlworld.com> On 13/08/2020 22:29, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > Thanks Aaron. The DEC display is quite a bit newer than the old Plato design. I had one of the Plato > terminals at one time and am quite familiar with them. I also had a digivue standalone display at > one time, but don't recall what I did with it over the course of the years. At that time, I did have > a full manual for it, including schematics, but I'm sure that went with the display to it's new home. > > I need to open the DEC VRE01 to see what the design looks like. The newer design allowed it to be > very compact... > > --tom This (https://eisner.decus.org/anon/htnotes/range?f1=INDUSTRY_NEWS&f2=491.0) suggests that the VRE01 was made by Planar Systems, Inc., of Beaverton, OR. Perhaps that might point you towards actual documentation. There's also a fact sheet (https://eisner.decus.org/anon/htnotes/range?f1=INDUSTRY_NEWS&f2=491.1). I do remember the VRE01 appearing in the DEC catalogues of the 1990s but I never saw one in real life. Perhaps the $11K price tag explains that :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From rich.cini at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 10:00:51 2020 From: rich.cini at gmail.com (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:00:51 -0400 Subject: LSI-11 Simulator from Bob Meister In-Reply-To: <7wh7t7w24j.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <2DB79A73-929A-4511-BF4A-AB6CFB19A003@gmail.com> <7wh7t7w24j.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <0CCB61B4-0E22-4B45-836F-77A8594476F2@gmail.com> Thanks Lars. Interesting article. According to his bio in Circuit Cellar, Bob was a programmer for the NASD (National Association of Securities Dealers) in New York and also wrote PDP-8 and MC6800 simulators. I can find even less on those two. The source code to the LSI11 says "R.W.Meister" so it's likely the same chap. I may cross-post this to VCFE and see if anyone knows where he may be. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 ?On 8/13/20, 1:23 AM, "Lars Brinkhoff" wrote: Richard Cini wrote: > an article by Bob Meister that appeared in the July 1996 issue of > Circuit Cellar with an LSI-11 simulator program. I found this by Robert P. Meister at Battelle Columbus labs. It mentions an LSI-II. https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a071102.pdf From rich.cini at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 10:00:51 2020 From: rich.cini at gmail.com (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:00:51 -0400 Subject: LSI-11 Simulator from Bob Meister In-Reply-To: <7wh7t7w24j.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <2DB79A73-929A-4511-BF4A-AB6CFB19A003@gmail.com> <7wh7t7w24j.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <0CCB61B4-0E22-4B45-836F-77A8594476F2@gmail.com> Thanks Lars. Interesting article. According to his bio in Circuit Cellar, Bob was a programmer for the NASD (National Association of Securities Dealers) in New York and also wrote PDP-8 and MC6800 simulators. I can find even less on those two. The source code to the LSI11 says "R.W.Meister" so it's likely the same chap. I may cross-post this to VCFE and see if anyone knows where he may be. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 ?On 8/13/20, 1:23 AM, "Lars Brinkhoff" wrote: Richard Cini wrote: > an article by Bob Meister that appeared in the July 1996 issue of > Circuit Cellar with an LSI-11 simulator program. I found this by Robert P. Meister at Battelle Columbus labs. It mentions an LSI-II. https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a071102.pdf From woolfson at telswitch.com Thu Aug 13 15:50:15 2020 From: woolfson at telswitch.com (Aaron Woolfson) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:50:15 -0700 Subject: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation Message-ID: <28D51AAB53734A8580628BCAA00F8800@simon> Hi Tom. Thanks for your message. Well, the Plasma panels use a pretty unique. I'm attaching the precise waveforms that the Plasma Panel expects to see in order to achieve the illumination of the dot. And while this may not be exactly or precisely what you're looking for, this will explain much about the technology involved. The fact that you can see any illumination at all is perhaps the most important part - beacuse the gas is probably there, and the "actuation" voltage might just not be high enough, or the sustainer voltage might have an issue. The power supplies were manufactured by Electro Plasma and were typically separate from the actual unit itself. I am going to see whether I can find the schematics for those power supplies, which discuss the characteristics . Also, check to see whether the back of the plasma panel itself has an edge connector that is similar to the attached TYCO specified connector. That might give you some insights into where to go. When I gave all my equipment and test gear to the LCM up in Seattle, I am pretty sure that they also got a lot of the original manuals and notes that had been hand written. But I typically had scans of most everything. I will see what I can find.... ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:38:39 -0400 From: Paul Koning You may want to see if the PLATO terminal documentation is any help, look on Bitsavers under University of Illinois. Those plasma display power supplies are hairy devices; the panel is actually a memory device and the power supply produces a high voltage AC waveform to make that work. Those panels normally light up around the rim; the fact you see that briefly but not sustained gives some hope that adjusting may be all that is needed. That's quite a display; the usual plasma panels were 8 inches square, 512 by 512 pixels. I'm guessing this is a 1k by 1k pixel display, which I have seen once or twice, at SAI in San Diego in some military displays. I know a plasma terminal expert; I've forwarded your message to him. paul > On Aug 13, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > > I have a DEC VRE01 terminal that I bought NIB years ago. For those who don't know about this model, > it has a flat plasma (orange/black) display of about 17". It worked when I bought it, but now, years > later, I tried powering it up and the light comes on for a moment and goes out. I suspect a power > supply issue, but bitsavers does not seem to have this one. > > Does anyone have schematic (or other) documentation for it? > > --tnx > --tom From woolfson at telswitch.com Thu Aug 13 15:53:59 2020 From: woolfson at telswitch.com (Aaron Woolfson) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:53:59 -0700 Subject: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation Message-ID: <1B34099BE42B4D13818C17570BD8BE07@simon> Here's a photo of one of the restored PLATO terminals (which had the plasma display) Does the power supply for the PLASMA look like the one in this photo of one of the terminals with the covers off? ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Woolfson To: paulkoning at comcast.net ; uban at ubanproductions.com ; cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 1:50 PM Subject: Re: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation Hi Tom. Thanks for your message. Well, the Plasma panels use a pretty unique. I'm attaching the precise waveforms that the Plasma Panel expects to see in order to achieve the illumination of the dot. And while this may not be exactly or precisely what you're looking for, this will explain much about the technology involved. The fact that you can see any illumination at all is perhaps the most important part - beacuse the gas is probably there, and the "actuation" voltage might just not be high enough, or the sustainer voltage might have an issue. The power supplies were manufactured by Electro Plasma and were typically separate from the actual unit itself. I am going to see whether I can find the schematics for those power supplies, which discuss the characteristics . Also, check to see whether the back of the plasma panel itself has an edge connector that is similar to the attached TYCO specified connector. That might give you some insights into where to go. When I gave all my equipment and test gear to the LCM up in Seattle, I am pretty sure that they also got a lot of the original manuals and notes that had been hand written. But I typically had scans of most everything. I will see what I can find.... ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:38:39 -0400 From: Paul Koning You may want to see if the PLATO terminal documentation is any help, look on Bitsavers under University of Illinois. Those plasma display power supplies are hairy devices; the panel is actually a memory device and the power supply produces a high voltage AC waveform to make that work. Those panels normally light up around the rim; the fact you see that briefly but not sustained gives some hope that adjusting may be all that is needed. That's quite a display; the usual plasma panels were 8 inches square, 512 by 512 pixels. I'm guessing this is a 1k by 1k pixel display, which I have seen once or twice, at SAI in San Diego in some military displays. I know a plasma terminal expert; I've forwarded your message to him. paul > On Aug 13, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > > I have a DEC VRE01 terminal that I bought NIB years ago. For those who don't know about this model, > it has a flat plasma (orange/black) display of about 17". It worked when I bought it, but now, years > later, I tried powering it up and the light comes on for a moment and goes out. I suspect a power > supply issue, but bitsavers does not seem to have this one. > > Does anyone have schematic (or other) documentation for it? > > --tnx > --tom From woolfson at telswitch.com Thu Aug 13 15:55:06 2020 From: woolfson at telswitch.com (Aaron Woolfson) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:55:06 -0700 Subject: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation Message-ID: <75E6DEB489964F71B533CD6BAA356FB7@simon> I am crossing my fingers that I stil have the scans of these somewhere, or photocopies.... these are copies of the original manuals. DigiVue sent me their only originals, which I made copies of and sent back to them at some point.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Woolfson To: Aaron Woolfson ; paulkoning at comcast.net ; uban at ubanproductions.com ; cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 1:53 PM Subject: Re: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation Here's a photo of one of the restored PLATO terminals (which had the plasma display) Does the power supply for the PLASMA look like the one in this photo of one of the terminals with the covers off? ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Woolfson To: paulkoning at comcast.net ; uban at ubanproductions.com ; cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 1:50 PM Subject: Re: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation Hi Tom. Thanks for your message. Well, the Plasma panels use a pretty unique. I'm attaching the precise waveforms that the Plasma Panel expects to see in order to achieve the illumination of the dot. And while this may not be exactly or precisely what you're looking for, this will explain much about the technology involved. The fact that you can see any illumination at all is perhaps the most important part - beacuse the gas is probably there, and the "actuation" voltage might just not be high enough, or the sustainer voltage might have an issue. The power supplies were manufactured by Electro Plasma and were typically separate from the actual unit itself. I am going to see whether I can find the schematics for those power supplies, which discuss the characteristics . Also, check to see whether the back of the plasma panel itself has an edge connector that is similar to the attached TYCO specified connector. That might give you some insights into where to go. When I gave all my equipment and test gear to the LCM up in Seattle, I am pretty sure that they also got a lot of the original manuals and notes that had been hand written. But I typically had scans of most everything. I will see what I can find.... ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:38:39 -0400 From: Paul Koning You may want to see if the PLATO terminal documentation is any help, look on Bitsavers under University of Illinois. Those plasma display power supplies are hairy devices; the panel is actually a memory device and the power supply produces a high voltage AC waveform to make that work. Those panels normally light up around the rim; the fact you see that briefly but not sustained gives some hope that adjusting may be all that is needed. That's quite a display; the usual plasma panels were 8 inches square, 512 by 512 pixels. I'm guessing this is a 1k by 1k pixel display, which I have seen once or twice, at SAI in San Diego in some military displays. I know a plasma terminal expert; I've forwarded your message to him. paul > On Aug 13, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > > I have a DEC VRE01 terminal that I bought NIB years ago. For those who don't know about this model, > it has a flat plasma (orange/black) display of about 17". It worked when I bought it, but now, years > later, I tried powering it up and the light comes on for a moment and goes out. I suspect a power > supply issue, but bitsavers does not seem to have this one. > > Does anyone have schematic (or other) documentation for it? > > --tnx > --tom From woolfson at telswitch.com Thu Aug 13 15:57:11 2020 From: woolfson at telswitch.com (Aaron Woolfson) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:57:11 -0700 Subject: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation Message-ID: <4B008FBB33684AA385163CA3D94B3F2D@simon> Sorry for duplicate emails. Paul did I send you copies of the power supply manuals? One more photo of the power supply. I beleieve that the illumination activation needed to be 109-115 volts, and the sustainer needed to be 74-78 volts. ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Woolfson To: Aaron Woolfson ; paulkoning at comcast.net ; uban at ubanproductions.com ; cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 1:55 PM Subject: Re: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation I am crossing my fingers that I stil have the scans of these somewhere, or photocopies.... these are copies of the original manuals. DigiVue sent me their only originals, which I made copies of and sent back to them at some point.... From sieler at allegro.com Thu Aug 13 17:28:08 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:28:08 -0700 Subject: HP-UX 7.0 Technical Data flyer Message-ID: I found/scanned/OCR'd the "Technical data" flyer for HP-UX 7.0 (from 1989). It's at: http://www.sieler.com/hp/other/hp_ux_7_0.html Shortly after this, HP quietly dropped the "real time" portion of HP-UX, and in later years no one at HP seemed to know it had ever been there. Stan From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 22:21:47 2020 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 22:21:47 -0500 Subject: Card edge connectors for individual Qbus wings In-Reply-To: <97a1e173-3003-afa2-bc8a-abd728b1459a@gmail.com> References: <97a1e173-3003-afa2-bc8a-abd728b1459a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <99dfc9f0-d570-eb49-0e06-03b4330081d4@gmail.com> Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > Greetings, everyone... > > Does anybody know where I can source card edge connectors (with > eyelets or pins on the other side, hopefully) that would fit > individual wings in a Qbus board? With regards to the same project, and realizing? that the vt100 keyboard market is now also thrashed by keyboard collectors: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-DECMate-Terminal-Mainframe-Minicomputer-Keyboard-VT278-AH/233220520920?hash=item364d06bbd8:g:mSMAAOSwUSRc0h9c ?... comes my next question.? Does anybody know of a vt100 keyboard emulation project wherein one can use an easily source-able keyboard and have the original 1/4" audio plug at the other end? Carlos. From sieler at allegro.com Thu Aug 13 17:24:31 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:24:31 -0700 Subject: HP Terminal Data from 1987 Message-ID: I scanned flyers for the HP terminal line (700/22, 700/41, 700/71, 700/92, and 700/94), and a price list from 1987. Info at http://sieler.com/hp/other/hp_terminals.html Stan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 13 23:58:51 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 04:58:51 +0000 Subject: Circuit board trace repair... In-Reply-To: <20200813113538.F1985275D3@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$.ref@verizon.net> <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$@verizon.net> , <20200813113538.F1985275D3@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: How much current is ir suppose to carry? I'd just replace it with a piece of wire wrap wire if it is less than an amp. Of course, I assume you've fixed what ever failed to cause it to blow. Gold wire is expensive. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of John Foust via cctalk Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 4:20 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Circuit board trace repair... At 05:33 PM 8/12/2020, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: >When I worked for Texas Instruments in '83, we used 30ga 24K gold wire... And these days, that's sold by the inch? - John From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 14 00:25:51 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 22:25:51 -0700 Subject: Circuit board trace repair... In-Reply-To: References: <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$.ref@verizon.net> <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$@verizon.net> <20200813113538.F1985275D3@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <7abab6a6-b981-fb2b-9785-fe5a1b4f210f@sydex.com> On 8/13/20 9:58 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > How much current is ir suppose to carry? I'd just replace it with a piece of wire wrap wire if it is less than an amp. > Of course, I assume you've fixed what ever failed to cause it to blow. > Gold wire is expensive. > Dwight According to my tables, AWG 30 copper wire has a resistance of 0.107 ohm per foot or about 9 milliohm per inch. I suspect that it would work under almost all PCB repair conditions. I've repaired power traces on CPU boards using WW wire with no ill effects. --Chuck From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 01:16:13 2020 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 01:16:13 -0500 Subject: Circuit board trace repair... In-Reply-To: <7abab6a6-b981-fb2b-9785-fe5a1b4f210f@sydex.com> References: <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$.ref@verizon.net> <005c01d66f5d$a87686b0$f9639410$@verizon.net> <20200813113538.F1985275D3@mx1.ezwind.net> <7abab6a6-b981-fb2b-9785-fe5a1b4f210f@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4eb73e05-9957-4bef-6dda-2e7365f0586d@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 8/13/20 9:58 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> How much current is ir suppose to carry? I'd just replace it with a piece of wire wrap wire if it is less than an amp. >> Of course, I assume you've fixed what ever failed to cause it to blow. >> Gold wire is expensive. >> Dwight > According to my tables, AWG 30 copper wire has a resistance of 0.107 ohm > per foot or about 9 milliohm per inch. I suspect that it would work > under almost all PCB repair conditions. I've repaired power traces on > CPU boards using WW wire with no ill effects. > > --Chuck > > Of course, it is not just about the resistance, but the resulting thermal cycling at the endpoints... About 25 years ago, I learned the hard way about keeping each amp across at least two DB-whatever pins in experimental hybrid-electric vehicles.? Nowadays we routinely x-ray crimps for safety-critical things such as ABS harnesses.?? Ampacity calculations differ wildly accross applications. carlos. From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Fri Aug 14 07:52:28 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:52:28 -0500 Subject: DEC VRE01 terminal documentation In-Reply-To: <03eca605-cd09-52b6-e2bc-c6346040e0f1@ntlworld.com> References: <1B34099BE42B4D13818C17570BD8BE07@simon> <03eca605-cd09-52b6-e2bc-c6346040e0f1@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <22084f07-0156-1560-c0b3-577a8dd35231@figureeightbrewing.com> On 8/13/20 5:04 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 13/08/2020 22:29, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >> Thanks Aaron. The DEC display is quite a bit newer than the old Plato design. I had one of the Plato >> terminals at one time and am quite familiar with them. I also had a digivue standalone display at >> one time, but don't recall what I did with it over the course of the years. At that time, I did have >> a full manual for it, including schematics, but I'm sure that went with the display to it's new >> home. >> >> I need to open the DEC VRE01 to see what the design looks like. The newer design allowed it to be >> very compact... >> >> --tom > > > This (https://eisner.decus.org/anon/htnotes/range?f1=INDUSTRY_NEWS&f2=491.0) suggests that the > VRE01 was made by Planar Systems, Inc., of Beaverton, OR. > > Perhaps that might point you towards actual documentation. > > There's also a fact sheet (https://eisner.decus.org/anon/htnotes/range?f1=INDUSTRY_NEWS&f2=491.1). > > > > I do remember the VRE01 appearing in the DEC catalogues of the 1990s but I never saw one in real > life. Perhaps the $11K price tag explains that :-) > > > Antonio > > That's some good information. Thanks Antonio. Yes, they were pricey, and nearing the end of DECs rule, fortunately I didn't pay more than a couple hundred for it. --tom From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 19:32:16 2020 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:32:16 -0500 Subject: HELLO WORLD! in SEL 810 mnembler Message-ID: https://youtu.be/zXcFS4NnFaI 3 minutes of condensed late 60s microcomputing for your weekend. From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sat Aug 15 11:47:29 2020 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 12:47:29 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 based Data Translation system on ebay Message-ID: Many of you have seen this on ebay already:? item 224117176901 I'm on the east coast so it is out of my reach. It appears to be a complete Data Translation data acquisition system including the software!? Someone please rescue this! Doug From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Aug 15 12:21:46 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 10:21:46 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 based Data Translation system on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86C157C0-FA15-4CBF-9E9B-BF1BAEE4A99F@avanthar.com> On Aug 15, 2020, at 9:47 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Many of you have seen this on ebay already: item 224117176901 > > I'm on the east coast so it is out of my reach. > > It appears to be a complete Data Translation data acquisition system including the software! Someone please rescue this! > > Doug Wow! Anyone close to LA should definitely consider this. I?m trying to avoid more hardware, but I actually checked to see where in California it is! That has the potential to go for an amazing price, considering what?s in that lot. Zane From Rice43 at btinternet.com Sat Aug 15 12:34:26 2020 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 18:34:26 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 based Data Translation system on ebay In-Reply-To: <86C157C0-FA15-4CBF-9E9B-BF1BAEE4A99F@avanthar.com> References: <86C157C0-FA15-4CBF-9E9B-BF1BAEE4A99F@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 15, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > On Aug 15, 2020, at 9:47 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >> Many of you have seen this on ebay already: item 224117176901 >> >> I'm on the east coast so it is out of my reach. >> >> It appears to be a complete Data Translation data acquisition system including the software! Someone please rescue this! >> >> Doug > > Wow! Anyone close to LA should definitely consider this. I?m trying to avoid more hardware, but I actually checked to see where in California it is! That has the potential to go for an amazing price, considering what?s in that lot. > > Zane > > It looks like a good set of hardware. The only downside is the large quantity of non-DEC cards in there, which i?ve found to be rather difficult to find documentation for? However, for the price, a pair of PDP-11/23?s isn?t a bad score. Not sure what you?d do with such a specialised rig though? but it?s an excellent bargain just as parts. From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Aug 15 12:44:53 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 10:44:53 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 based Data Translation system on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <86C157C0-FA15-4CBF-9E9B-BF1BAEE4A99F@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 15, 2020, at 10:34 AM, Joshua Rice wrote: > > It looks like a good set of hardware. The only downside is the large quantity of non-DEC cards in there, which i?ve found to be rather difficult to find documentation for? > > However, for the price, a pair of PDP-11/23?s isn?t a bad score. Not sure what you?d do with such a specialised rig though? but it?s an excellent bargain just as parts. Take a look at the documentation that?s included. It looks like it included documentation for a lot of that 3rd party Hardware. Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 15 13:11:16 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 11:11:16 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 based Data Translation system on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <86C157C0-FA15-4CBF-9E9B-BF1BAEE4A99F@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <8722fb39-4b76-7683-1399-4b71b9beddbf@bitsavers.org> > The only downside is the large quantity of non-DEC cards in there, which i?ve found to be rather difficult to find documentation for? I have a large collection of DSD documents on line. By the 80's DEC's storage devices were so inferior price/perfomance wise that there was a very large 3rd party list of vendors. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 13:13:30 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 14:13:30 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 based Data Translation system on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > It appears to be a complete Data Translation data acquisition system > including the software! Someone please rescue this! I am not entirely sure if "rescue" is the right word here. The seller seems reasonable and in no hurry. -- Will From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 09:53:29 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:53:29 -0400 Subject: LA / SoCal area SDS branded (Sigma S7) Teletype Model 35 Avail. Message-ID: Looking for someone in the LA area who knows how to properly pack and a few ship vintage items to be mailed to me. A computer, monitor and parts. The seller is not experienced in this and as a result the first thing that I got from him (A Model 33 Teletype top) was trashed. I don't want the stress of explaining or worrying about the next batch of stuff. So I turn to you, the vintage computing community to help. You get: Teletype Model 35 that I am told is in very nice shape. I'd love to take it myself but shipping is too expensive and difficult. The Pedestal is branded SDS, as in the old Sigma S7 computer. Xerox bought them out and sold the Sigma afterwards. That would date the Teletype in the late 60's or so. This would be a nice museum piece. I am told the Model 35 is practically unused. I get You pack and ship properly (you supply boxes and bubble wrap) a late 70's business PC, display terminal, and a TTY Model 33 pedestal (I already have the TTY itself). I anticipate the computer will be heavy and delicate and will need to be partially disassembled to add a little padding to the inside and to intelligently check out what you're dealing with. I am experienced in shipping this kind of stuff, and if it was me, I would expect it to take someone in LA area three or four hours to get the materials at the store, box, disassemble/sure up, pack, go to the post office, ship etc. I want it mailed USPS as I live in a rural area and they're the best here. This is the community, do I have a taker? If so contact me privately through https://www.vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm. My timeline is next two weeks if possible. Thanks BIll Degnan kennettclassic.com vintagecomputer.net P.S. I will likely have a line to more cool stuff in LA area from this guy. You might want to check out what else he has, that in and of itself might make this venture worth it. From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Aug 16 10:24:35 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 11:24:35 -0400 Subject: Diloq SQ703 to SQ706 conversion Message-ID: I'm getting back to trying to restore my MicroVax II.? Existing controllers are ESDI and MFM, disks hard to find. So I would like to convert a brand-new DQ703 I have to SQ706 so I can mount SCSI disks. I understand it is just? a prom change. Does anybody have any info, or perhaps a PROM image? cheers, Nigel -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org From bvasea at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 02:34:44 2020 From: bvasea at gmail.com (Vasile Buruiana) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:34:44 +0300 Subject: Sun Ultra 10 - openBSD 6.7+Creator3D+sunffb: Xorg and xenocara freeze the system Message-ID: Greetings. I would like to solve a mistery regarding graphical user interface on a Sun Ultra 10+ Creator3D UPA graphics card, running OpenBSD 6.7/sparc64. Everything works fine with Solaris 10. Did anybody manage to get X running on openBSD? Sparc64 support is somehow bogus so I feel that if I talk to them, there will be no answer. Here is what I am trying to do and hope will help others: - installed openBSD on two Sun Ultra 10 machines: one machine full install (with X packages), the other without X, but xenocara compiled later; - Configured /etc/X11/xorg.conf as described in attached file 1; The same issues were observed for both Xorg and xenocara, so I suspect there's something wrong with sunffb: - /var/log/Xorg.0.log shows everything is in order (except for a xaa warning) as described in attached file 2; - at each startx (without system reboot), X registers a new display :0 :1 :2 :3 and so on. It never falls back to :0 unless I tell it manually to do so: startx -- :0 - so at this time, for both machines the attached file 2 is "/var/log/Xorg.10.log" (last X session); - startx says "Unknown boardID[000000ff], assuming FFB2, DoubleRES, Z-buffer, Single-buffered."; - dmesg is shown in attached file 3; - GUI starts, as confirmed by ps aux; - Screen becomes white, the previous black text becomes yellow. Window manager (wmaker) is running; - if creator0 kernel flag is set to 1 (disable accel), some blue dots appear instead of yellow text, but still no graphics; - I tried both default, 28.636 and 29.5 "Option" "ReferenceClock" according to xorg.conf manual - Xorg.0.log reports this option is never used; - if I start X11vnc, I can get a vnc client connection but the screen is white - so I suspect there is some wrong memory mapping: sunffb is using some bogus memory location while x11vnc is reading from somewhere else. Did anyone encounter this problem? Please advise. Best wishes, Vasile Buruiana (bvasea!gmail[]com) ____________________________ Attached file 1: /etc/X11/xorg.conf Section "ServerLayout" Identifier "X.org Configured" Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0 InputDevice "Mouse0" "CorePointer" InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard" Option "Xinerama" "On" EndSection Section "Files" RgbPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/rgb" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc/" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/TTF/" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1/" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/CID/" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/" EndSection Section "Module" EndSection Section "InputDevice" Identifier "Keyboard0" Driver "kbd" Option "Protocol" "wskbd" Option "Device" "/dev/wskbd0" EndSection Section "InputDevice" Identifier "Mouse0" Driver "mouse" Option "Protocol" "SunMouse" Option "Device" "/dev/tty00" Option "BaudRate" "1200" EndSection Section "Monitor" Identifier "Monitor" VendorName "Unknown" ModelName "Unknown" HorizSync 31.5-60 VertRefresh 50-70 EndSection Section "Device" Identifier "creator0" # Driver "wsfb" # Option "device" "/dev/ttyC0" Driver "sunffb" Option "ReferenceClock" "28.636" # Option "UseFBDev" "true" # Option "accel" "True" VendorName "Elite3D" BoardName "SUNW" # Option "device" "/dev/console" EndSection Section "Screen" Identifier "Screen0" Device "creator0" Monitor "Monitor" DefaultDepth 24 SubSection "Display" Depth 24 FbBpp 32 Weight 8 8 8 EndSubSection EndSection __________________________________________________________ attached file 2: /var/log/Xorg.10.log __________________________________________________________ [ 3904.433] (--) Using wscons driver on /dev/ttyD0 [ 3904.476] X.Org X Server 1.20.8 X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0 [ 3904.477] Build Operating System: OpenBSD 6.7 sparc64 [ 3904.479] Current Operating System: OpenBSD frectie.seprom.ro 6.7 GENERIC#306 sparc64 [ 3904.482] Build Date: 16 August 2020 02:14:23AM [ 3904.482] [ 3904.483] Current version of pixman: 0.38.4 [ 3904.483] Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.x.org to make sure that you have the latest version. [ 3904.484] Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting, (++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational, (WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown. [ 3904.489] (==) Log file: "/var/log/Xorg.10.log", Time: Sun Aug 16 10:31:31 2020 [ 3904.493] (==) Using config file: "/etc/X11/xorg.conf" [ 3904.493] (==) Using system config directory "/usr/X11R6/share/X11/xorg.conf.d" [ 3904.496] Parse error on line 10 of section Files in file /etc/X11/xorg.conf Ignoring obsolete keyword "RgbPath". [ 3904.499] (==) ServerLayout "X.org Configured" [ 3904.499] (**) |-->Screen "Screen0" (0) [ 3904.499] (**) | |-->Monitor "Monitor" [ 3904.505] (**) | |-->Device "creator0" [ 3904.505] (**) |-->Input Device "Mouse0" [ 3904.506] (**) |-->Input Device "Keyboard0" [ 3904.507] (**) Option "Xinerama" "On" [ 3904.507] (==) Automatically adding devices [ 3904.507] (==) Automatically enabling devices [ 3904.507] (==) Not automatically adding GPU devices [ 3904.508] (**) Xinerama: enabled [ 3904.508] (==) Max clients allowed: 256, resource mask: 0x1fffff [ 3904.509] (WW) The directory "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/CID/" does not exist. [ 3904.509] Entry deleted from font path. [ 3904.510] (**) FontPath set to: /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/TTF/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/TTF/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/OTF/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/ [ 3904.510] (==) ModulePath set to "/usr/X11R6/lib/modules" [ 3904.510] (WW) Hotplugging is on, devices using drivers 'kbd', 'mouse' or 'vmmouse' will be disabled. [ 3904.510] (WW) Disabling Mouse0 [ 3904.511] (WW) Disabling Keyboard0 [ 3904.511] (II) Loader magic: 0xeefafa6010 [ 3904.511] (II) Module ABI versions: [ 3904.511] X.Org ANSI C Emulation: 0.4 [ 3904.511] X.Org Video Driver: 24.1 [ 3904.511] X.Org XInput driver : 24.1 [ 3904.511] X.Org Server Extension : 10.0 [ 3904.520] (--) PCI:*(1 at 0:2:0) 1002:4750:0000:0000 rev 92, Mem @ 0xe1000000/16777216, 0xe2000000/4096, I/O @ 0x00000000/256, BIOS @ 0x????????/131072 [ 3904.521] (II) "glx" will be loaded by default. [ 3904.521] (II) LoadModule: "glx" [ 3904.526] (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/extensions/libglx.so [ 3904.559] (II) Module glx: vendor="X.Org Foundation" [ 3904.559] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 1.0.0 [ 3904.559] ABI class: X.Org Server Extension, version 10.0 [ 3904.560] (II) LoadModule: "sunffb" [ 3904.563] (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/drivers/sunffb_drv.so [ 3904.564] (II) Module sunffb: vendor="X.Org Foundation" [ 3904.565] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 1.2.2 [ 3904.565] Module class: X.Org Video Driver [ 3904.565] ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 24.1 [ 3904.565] (II) SUNFFB: driver for Creator, Creator 3D and Elite 3D [ 3904.565] (WW) Falling back to old probe method for sunffb [ 3904.567] (WW) VGA arbiter: cannot open kernel arbiter, no multi-card support [ 3904.568] (**) SUNFFB(0): RGB weight 888 [ 3904.568] (==) SUNFFB(0): Default visual is TrueColor [ 3904.569] (==) SUNFFB(0): Using gamma correction (1.0, 1.0, 1.0) [ 3904.569] (==) SUNFFB(0): Using HW cursor [ 3904.569] (II) Loading sub module "fb" [ 3904.569] (II) LoadModule: "fb" [ 3904.576] (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/libfb.so [ 3904.579] (II) Module fb: vendor="X.Org Foundation" [ 3904.579] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 1.0.0 [ 3904.579] ABI class: X.Org ANSI C Emulation, version 0.4 [ 3904.579] (II) Loading sub module "xaa" [ 3904.579] (II) LoadModule: "xaa" [ 3904.592] (WW) Warning, couldn't open module xaa [ 3904.592] (EE) SUNFFB: Failed to load module "xaa" (module does not exist, 0) [ 3904.592] (II) SUNFFB(0): Loading XAA failed, acceleration disabled [ 3904.592] (II) Loading sub module "ramdac" [ 3904.592] (II) LoadModule: "ramdac" [ 3904.593] (II) Module "ramdac" already built-in [ 3904.593] (II) Loading sub module "dbe" [ 3904.593] (II) LoadModule: "dbe" [ 3904.593] (II) Module "dbe" already built-in [ 3904.593] (==) SUNFFB(0): DPI set to (96, 96) [ 3904.598] (II) creator0: Unknown boardID[000000ff], assuming FFB2, DoubleRES, Z-buffer, Single-buffered. [ 3904.600] (II) creator0: BT9068 (PAC1) ramdac detected (with normal cursor control) [ 3904.601] (II) creator0: Detected Creator/Creator3D [ 3904.606] (==) SUNFFB(0): Backing store enabled [ 3904.606] (==) SUNFFB(0): Silken mouse enabled [ 3904.609] (==) SUNFFB(0): DPMS enabled [ 3904.610] (WW) SUNFFB(0): Option "ReferenceClock" is not used [ 3904.610] (II) Initializing extension Generic Event Extension [ 3904.616] (II) Initializing extension SHAPE [ 3904.622] (II) Initializing extension MIT-SHM [ 3904.628] (II) Initializing extension XInputExtension [ 3904.634] (II) Initializing extension XTEST [ 3904.640] (II) Initializing extension BIG-REQUESTS [ 3904.646] (II) Initializing extension SYNC [ 3904.652] (II) Initializing extension XKEYBOARD [ 3904.657] (II) Initializing extension XC-MISC [ 3904.663] (II) Initializing extension SECURITY [ 3904.669] (II) Initializing extension XINERAMA [ 3904.669] (II) Initializing extension XFIXES [ 3904.675] (II) Initializing extension RENDER [ 3904.681] (II) Initializing extension RANDR [ 3904.681] (II) Initializing extension COMPOSITE [ 3904.687] (II) Initializing extension DAMAGE [ 3904.693] (II) Initializing extension MIT-SCREEN-SAVER [ 3904.698] (II) Initializing extension DOUBLE-BUFFER [ 3904.704] (II) Initializing extension RECORD [ 3904.710] (II) Initializing extension DPMS [ 3904.715] (II) Initializing extension Present [ 3904.721] (II) Initializing extension DRI3 [ 3904.721] (II) Initializing extension X-Resource [ 3904.727] (II) Initializing extension XVideo [ 3904.732] (II) Initializing extension XVideo-MotionCompensation [ 3904.732] (II) Initializing extension GLX [ 3904.739] (II) AIGLX: Screen 0 is not DRI2 capable [ 3904.868] (II) IGLX: Loaded and initialized swrast [ 3904.868] (II) GLX: Initialized DRISWRAST GL provider for screen 0 [ 3904.868] (II) Initializing extension XFree86-VidModeExtension [ 3904.874] (II) Initializing extension XFree86-DGA [ 3904.879] (II) Initializing extension XFree86-DRI [ 3904.879] (II) Initializing extension DRI2 [ 3907.959] (II) config/wscons: checking input device /dev/wskbd [ 3907.959] (II) wskbd: using layout us [ 3907.960] (II) LoadModule: "kbd" [ 3907.965] (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/input/kbd_drv.so [ 3907.968] (II) Module kbd: vendor="X.Org Foundation" [ 3907.968] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 1.9.0 [ 3907.968] Module class: X.Org XInput Driver [ 3907.968] ABI class: X.Org XInput driver, version 24.1 [ 3907.968] (II) Using input driver 'kbd' for '/dev/wskbd' [ 3907.969] (**) /dev/wskbd: always reports core events [ 3907.970] (**) /dev/wskbd: always reports core events [ 3907.970] (**) Option "Protocol" "standard" [ 3907.971] (**) Option "XkbRules" "base" [ 3907.971] (**) Option "XkbModel" "pc105" [ 3907.971] (**) Option "XkbLayout" "us" [ 3907.971] (II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "/dev/wskbd" (type: KEYBOARD, id 6) [ 3907.977] (II) config/wscons: checking input device /dev/wsmouse [ 3907.978] (II) LoadModule: "ws" [ 3907.983] (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/input/ws_drv.so [ 3907.985] (II) Module ws: vendor="X.Org Foundation" [ 3907.985] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 1.3.0 [ 3907.985] Module class: X.Org XInput Driver [ 3907.985] ABI class: X.Org XInput driver, version 24.1 [ 3907.985] (II) Using input driver 'ws' for '/dev/wsmouse' [ 3907.985] (**) /dev/wsmouse: always reports core events [ 3907.986] (II) ws: /dev/wsmouse: debuglevel 0 [ 3907.986] (**) Option "Device" "/dev/wsmouse" [ 3907.986] (**) ws: /dev/wsmouse: ZAxisMapping: buttons 4 and 5 [ 3907.986] (**) ws: /dev/wsmouse: WAxisMapping: buttons 6 and 7 [ 3907.986] (**) ws: /dev/wsmouse: associated screen: 0 [ 3907.987] (II) ws: /dev/wsmouse: minimum x position: 0 [ 3907.987] (II) ws: /dev/wsmouse: maximum x position: 1151 [ 3907.987] (II) ws: /dev/wsmouse: minimum y position: 0 [ 3907.988] (II) ws: /dev/wsmouse: maximum y position: 899 [ 3907.988] (==) ws: /dev/wsmouse: Buttons: 7 [ 3907.988] (**) ws: /dev/wsmouse: YAxisMapping: buttons 4 and 5 [ 3907.988] (II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "/dev/wsmouse" (type: MOUSE, id 7) [ 3907.992] (**) /dev/wsmouse: (accel) keeping acceleration scheme 1 [ 3907.992] (**) /dev/wsmouse: (accel) acceleration profile 0 [ 3907.993] (**) /dev/wsmouse: (accel) acceleration factor: 2.000 [ 3907.993] (**) /dev/wsmouse: (accel) acceleration threshold: 4 [ 3908.018] (EE) Failed to open authorization file "/root/.serverauth.68zMtvOjbh": Permission denied [ 3918.136] (II) UnloadModule: "ws" [ 3918.138] (II) UnloadModule: "kbd" __________________________________________________________ attached file 3: dmesg output __________________________________________________________ console is keyboard/display Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. Copyright (c) 1995-2020 OpenBSD. All rights reserved. https://www.OpenBSD.org OpenBSD 6.7 (GENERIC) #306: Thu May 7 18:19:56 MDT 2020 deraadt at sparc64.openbsd.org:/usr/src/sys/arch/sparc64/compile/GENERIC real mem = 1073741824 (1024MB) avail mem = 1038467072 (990MB) mpath0 at root scsibus0 at mpath0: 256 targets mainbus0 at root: Sun Ultra 5/10 UPA/PCI (UltraSPARC-IIi 440MHz) cpu0 at mainbus0: SUNW,UltraSPARC-IIi (rev 9.1) @ 440 MHz cpu0: physical 16K instruction (32 b/l), 16K data (32 b/l), 2048K external (64 b/l) psycho0 at mainbus0 addr 0xfffc4000: SUNW,sabre, impl 0, version 0, ign 7c0 psycho0: bus range 0-2, PCI bus 0 psycho0: dvma map c0000000-dfffffff pci0 at psycho0 ppb0 at pci0 dev 1 function 1 "Sun Simba" rev 0x13 pci1 at ppb0 bus 1 ebus0 at pci1 dev 1 function 0 "Sun PCIO EBus2" rev 0x01 auxio0 at ebus0 addr 726000-726003, 728000-728003, 72a000-72a003, 72c000-72c003, 72f000-72f003 power0 at ebus0 addr 724000-724003 ivec 0x25 "SUNW,pll" at ebus0 addr 504000-504002 not configured sab0 at ebus0 addr 400000-40007f ivec 0x2b: rev 3.2 sabtty0 at sab0 port 0 sabtty1 at sab0 port 1 comkbd0 at ebus0 addr 3083f8-3083ff ivec 0x29: layout 34 wskbd0 at comkbd0: console keyboard comms0 at ebus0 addr 3062f8-3062ff ivec 0x2a wsmouse0 at comms0 mux 0 lpt0 at ebus0 addr 3043bc-3043cb, 30015c-30015d, 700000-70000f ivec 0x22: polled "fdthree" at ebus0 addr 3023f0-3023f7, 706000-70600f, 720000-720003 ivec 0x27 not configured clock1 at ebus0 addr 0-1fff: mk48t59 "flashprom" at ebus0 addr 0-fffff not configured audioce0 at ebus0 addr 200000-2000ff, 702000-70200f, 704000-70400f, 722000-722003 ivec 0x23 ivec 0x24: nvaddrs 0 audio0 at audioce0 hme0 at pci1 dev 1 function 1 "Sun HME" rev 0x01: ivec 0x7e1, address 08:00:20:c0:ff:ef nsphy0 at hme0 phy 1: DP83840 10/100 PHY, rev. 1 machfb0 at pci1 dev 2 function 0 "ATI Mach64" rev 0x5c machfb0: ATY,GT-C, 1152x900 wsdisplay0 at machfb0 mux 1 wsdisplay0: screen 0 added (std, sun emulation) pciide0 at pci1 dev 3 function 0 "CMD Technology PCI0646" rev 0x03: DMA, channel 0 configured to native-PCI, channel 1 configured to native-PCI pciide0: using ivec 0x7e0 for native-PCI interrupt wd0 at pciide0 channel 0 drive 0: wd0: 16-sector PIO, LBA, 78167MB, 160086528 sectors wd1 at pciide0 channel 0 drive 1: wd1: 16-sector PIO, LBA, 76319MB, 156301488 sectors wd0(pciide0:0:0): using PIO mode 4, DMA mode 2 wd1(pciide0:0:1): using PIO mode 4, DMA mode 2 atapiscsi0 at pciide0 channel 1 drive 0 scsibus1 at atapiscsi0: 2 targets cd0 at scsibus1 targ 0 lun 0: removable wd2 at pciide0 channel 1 drive 1: wd2: 16-sector PIO, LBA48, 152627MB, 312581808 sectors cd0(pciide0:1:0): using PIO mode 4, DMA mode 2 wd2(pciide0:1:1): using PIO mode 4, DMA mode 2 ppb1 at pci0 dev 1 function 0 "Sun Simba" rev 0x13 pci2 at ppb1 bus 2 creator0 at mainbus0 addr 0xfebee000: Elite3D, model SUNW,XXX-XXXX, dac 0, 1152x900 wsdisplay1 at creator0 mux 1: console (std, sun emulation), using wskbd0 vscsi0 at root scsibus2 at vscsi0: 256 targets softraid0 at root scsibus3 at softraid0: 256 targets bootpath: /pci at 1f,0/pci at 1,1/ide at 3,0/disk at 0,0 root on wd0a (1f60d5c98cb9f231.a) swap on wd0b dump on wd0b _____________________________________________________________ From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Sun Aug 16 11:54:55 2020 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 18:54:55 +0200 Subject: Looking for a Stride OS set Message-ID: <13943b3e-c245-4dcf-eff6-da8cc253cc37@greenmail.ch> I currently have 3 Stride 420 boards in various state of repair, one presumably fully functional,? and would need an OS set for these. Anyone have actual floppies or IMD images of either ucsd.p or Liason OS for these machines, or even just CP/M 68K ? There are disk iimages under the header "Stride"? on the web and Bitsavers,? but these are actually for the previous generation machines ( Sage II and IV) Jos From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 12:08:17 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 13:08:17 -0400 Subject: Looking for a Stride OS set In-Reply-To: <13943b3e-c245-4dcf-eff6-da8cc253cc37@greenmail.ch> References: <13943b3e-c245-4dcf-eff6-da8cc253cc37@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: I do, but my Sage II is currently packed away. I'd have to make a disk copy, I dont have the ability to image the boot disks otherwise. If you can find no other source let me know and I will make you an OS disk or two. Bill Kennettclassic.com Vintagecomputer.net On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 12:55 PM jos via cctalk wrote: > I currently have 3 Stride 420 boards in various state of repair, one > presumably fully functional, and would need an OS set for these. > > Anyone have actual floppies or IMD images of either ucsd.p or Liason OS > for these machines, or even just CP/M 68K ? > > There are disk iimages under the header "Stride" on the web and > Bitsavers, but these are actually for the previous generation machines ( > Sage II and IV) > > Jos > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 12:42:02 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 18:42:02 +0100 Subject: Diloq SQ703 to SQ706 conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <041c01d673f4$8cf2b8a0$a6d829e0$@gmail.com> Nigel, Have you thought about using the MFM emulator from https://www.pdp8.net/mfm/mfm.shtml I don't know how well it works with MicroVax... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Nigel Johnson > via cctalk > Sent: 16 August 2020 16:25 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Diloq SQ703 to SQ706 conversion > > I'm getting back to trying to restore my MicroVax II. Existing controllers are > ESDI and MFM, disks hard to find. > > So I would like to convert a brand-new DQ703 I have to SQ706 so I can mount > SCSI disks. > > I understand it is just a prom change. > > Does anybody have any info, or perhaps a PROM image? > > cheers, > > Nigel > > -- > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the > origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org > > From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Sun Aug 16 12:38:51 2020 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 18:38:51 +0100 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <007501d673f4$1b4bdf60$51e39e20$@vanpeborgh.eu> Guys, Anyone interested in my eBay posted punched card selection? https://www.ebay.co.uk/mys/active Thanks, Peter vp From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Aug 16 14:16:18 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 15:16:18 -0400 Subject: Diloq SQ703 to SQ706 conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45852f1a-4250-eded-0212-549bd3de360e@alembic.crystel.com> Don't know much about the Dilogs (other than there were tape and disk versions) but ESDI disks can still be found on Ebay, I have a spare 150mb drive if you need it. They are quite quick all things considered, and some of the ESDI controllers had pretty good hardware acceleration features in addition to block and burst mode DMA. C (running 327mb ESDI disks on my 11 and am very happy with performance) On 8/16/2020 11:24 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > I'm getting back to trying to restore my MicroVax II.? Existing > controllers are ESDI and MFM, disks hard to find. > > So I would like to convert a brand-new DQ703 I have to SQ706 so I can > mount SCSI disks. > > I understand it is just? a prom change. > > Does anybody have any info, or perhaps a PROM image? > > cheers, > > Nigel > From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Aug 16 14:19:24 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 15:19:24 -0400 Subject: Diloq SQ703 to SQ706 conversion In-Reply-To: <45852f1a-4250-eded-0212-549bd3de360e@alembic.crystel.com> References: <45852f1a-4250-eded-0212-549bd3de360e@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <4c7d2d74-f712-1df7-d2e1-57cca899f0ab@ieee.org> Chris, if I had that ESDI drive I could at least get a system onto the machine to explore further! Where are you? Could you mail it to me in Toronto, Canada? How much moolah do you need to do this? cheers, Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 16/08/2020 15:16, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Don't know much about the Dilogs (other than there were tape and disk > versions) but ESDI disks can still be found on Ebay, I have a spare > 150mb drive if you need it. They are quite quick all things > considered, and some of the ESDI controllers had pretty good hardware > acceleration features in addition to block and burst mode DMA. > > C > > (running 327mb ESDI disks on my 11 and am very happy with performance) > > On 8/16/2020 11:24 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >> I'm getting back to trying to restore my MicroVax II.? Existing >> controllers are ESDI and MFM, disks hard to find. >> >> So I would like to convert a brand-new DQ703 I have to SQ706 so I can >> mount SCSI disks. >> >> I understand it is just? a prom change. >> >> Does anybody have any info, or perhaps a PROM image? >> >> cheers, >> >> Nigel >> From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Aug 16 14:22:26 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 15:22:26 -0400 Subject: Diloq SQ703 to SQ706 conversion In-Reply-To: <4c7d2d74-f712-1df7-d2e1-57cca899f0ab@ieee.org> References: <45852f1a-4250-eded-0212-549bd3de360e@alembic.crystel.com> <4c7d2d74-f712-1df7-d2e1-57cca899f0ab@ieee.org> Message-ID: Shipping and a six pack of beer? Send me your address, note that the USPS is running slow for some reason but I can send it priority mail international. Value... a six pack of beer? C On 8/16/2020 3:19 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Chris, if I had that ESDI drive I could at least get a system onto the > machine to explore further! > > Where are you? Could you mail it to me in Toronto, Canada? > > How much moolah do you need to do this? > > cheers, > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 16/08/2020 15:16, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Don't know much about the Dilogs (other than there were tape and disk >> versions) but ESDI disks can still be found on Ebay, I have a spare >> 150mb drive if you need it. They are quite quick all things >> considered, and some of the ESDI controllers had pretty good hardware >> acceleration features in addition to block and burst mode DMA. >> >> C >> >> (running 327mb ESDI disks on my 11 and am very happy with performance) >> >> On 8/16/2020 11:24 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >>> I'm getting back to trying to restore my MicroVax II.? Existing >>> controllers are ESDI and MFM, disks hard to find. >>> >>> So I would like to convert a brand-new DQ703 I have to SQ706 so I can >>> mount SCSI disks. >>> >>> I understand it is just? a prom change. >>> >>> Does anybody have any info, or perhaps a PROM image? >>> >>> cheers, >>> >>> Nigel >>> From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Aug 16 14:51:16 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 15:51:16 -0400 Subject: Diloq SQ703 to SQ706 conversion In-Reply-To: <041c01d673f4$8cf2b8a0$a6d829e0$@gmail.com> References: <041c01d673f4$8cf2b8a0$a6d829e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2020-08-16 1:42 p.m., Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > Nigel, > > Have you thought about using the MFM emulator from > > https://www.pdp8.net/mfm/mfm.shtml > > I don't know how well it works with MicroVax... A friend (in Toronto) is doing a run of these: https://decromancer.ooo/mfm-emulator.html There are still 2 for sale at time of writing. --Toby > > Dave > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Nigel Johnson >> via cctalk >> Sent: 16 August 2020 16:25 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Diloq SQ703 to SQ706 conversion >> >> I'm getting back to trying to restore my MicroVax II. Existing controllers are >> ESDI and MFM, disks hard to find. >> >> So I would like to convert a brand-new DQ703 I have to SQ706 so I can mount >> SCSI disks. >> >> I understand it is just a prom change. >> >> Does anybody have any info, or perhaps a PROM image? >> >> cheers, >> >> Nigel >> >> -- >> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the >> origin of the open-source concept! >> Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org >> >> > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 16 15:08:02 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 21:08:02 +0100 Subject: In-Reply-To: <007501d673f4$1b4bdf60$51e39e20$@vanpeborgh.eu> References: <007501d673f4$1b4bdf60$51e39e20$@vanpeborgh.eu> Message-ID: <88077c10-3e31-0148-30f1-76809a996275@ntlworld.com> On 16/08/2020 18:38, Peter Van Peborgh via cctech wrote: > Guys, > > Anyone interested in my eBay posted punched card selection? > https://www.ebay.co.uk/mys/active > That link points to the items on sale for whoever clicks on it (so when I click on it, I see my items!). If you want to show your items, you'll have to find another link! Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Aug 16 15:11:29 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 13:11:29 -0700 Subject: In-Reply-To: <007501d673f4$1b4bdf60$51e39e20$@vanpeborgh.eu> References: <007501d673f4$1b4bdf60$51e39e20$@vanpeborgh.eu> Message-ID: <75099f02-c649-a981-e75f-3eb5aca14dac@jwsss.com> On 8/16/2020 10:38 AM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk wrote: > Guys, > > Anyone interested in my eBay posted punched card selection? > https://www.ebay.co.uk/mys/active > > Thanks, > > Peter vp > > The link is about as useful as just pointing @ ebay.? Do you have an auction number or other info to find your listing(s)? thanks Jim From mosst at SDF.ORG Sun Aug 16 19:39:08 2020 From: mosst at SDF.ORG (Thomas Moss) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 00:39:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Wanted: misc TU56 parts for use with a TD8-E Message-ID: Hi All, I'm looking for the following parts to configure my TU56 for use with a TD8-E: G742 (Positive Logic Jumper Card) M960 (TU56/TD8-E Command Cable Connector) M961 (TU56/TD8-E Data Cable Connector) 7008447 cable H716 PSU I'm happy to buy or trade, if there's anything you're looking for feel free to ask. Regards, -Tom mosst at sdf.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - https://sdf.org From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 19:45:12 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:45:12 -0700 Subject: Wanted: misc TU56 parts for use with a TD8-E In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 5:39 PM Thomas Moss via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm looking for the following parts to configure my TU56 for use with a > TD8-E: > > G742 (Positive Logic Jumper Card) > M960 (TU56/TD8-E Command Cable Connector) > M961 (TU56/TD8-E Data Cable Connector) > 7008447 cable > H716 PSU > > I'm happy to buy or trade, if there's anything you're looking for feel > free to ask. > There's an H716 on eBay right now, $10 with 18h left. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Equipment-Corporation-Model-No-H716-Power-supply-as-is-untested/264825608661 Reproductions of the cabling and associated cards are available, thanks to Vince Slyngstad. (There may be others out there as well.) http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Mxxx/M960/ http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Mxxx/M961/ - Josh > > Regards, > -Tom > > > mosst at sdf.org > SDF Public Access UNIX System - https://sdf.org > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 19:58:52 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:58:52 -0700 Subject: Diloq SQ703 to SQ706 conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 8:24 AM Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > > So I would like to convert a brand-new DQ703 I have to SQ706 so I can > mount SCSI disks. > > I understand it is just a prom change. > > Does anybody have any info, or perhaps a PROM image? > The two Dilog SQ703 and SQ706 boards that I have are not physically identical. One has a SCSI bus driver daughter board and the other does not. I don't know if the firmware is swappable between the two. I never got around to trying that before the TMSCP board died. The MSCP board still worked fine the last time I used it. I also have a couple of the later SQ3703 and SQ3706 S-handle versions of the boards. On those I did swap the MSCP firmware into the TMSCP board and it then worked fine as an MSCP version. From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Aug 16 20:06:00 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 21:06:00 -0400 Subject: Diloq SQ703 to SQ706 conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15cd59cb-afc0-13dd-f204-680d477663b0@ieee.org> Thanks for the reply, Glen. Now, I am not sure where I got that info from, but I believe it was from this list or maybe netbsd-vax. My SQ703s have an unpopulated area near the 50 pin connector, and are of one of the later versions. I have always assumed that was for extra drivers to do differential SCSI. Is it possible that your board with the external drivers is for DI?? Or maybe it was an earlier version? Either way, is your 706 the one without the daughter board?? I have also heard that the board is capable of doing TMSCP as well as MSCP, but I can't see doing it at the same time because the register addresses would be different. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 16/08/2020 20:58, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 8:24 AM Nigel Johnson via cctalk > wrote: >> So I would like to convert a brand-new DQ703 I have to SQ706 so I can >> mount SCSI disks. >> >> I understand it is just a prom change. >> >> Does anybody have any info, or perhaps a PROM image? >> > The two Dilog SQ703 and SQ706 boards that I have are not physically > identical. One has a SCSI bus driver daughter board and the other does > not. I don't know if the firmware is swappable between the two. I > never got around to trying that before the TMSCP board died. The MSCP > board still worked fine the last time I used it. > > I also have a couple of the later SQ3703 and SQ3706 S-handle versions > of the boards. On those I did swap the MSCP firmware into the TMSCP > board and it then worked fine as an MSCP version. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Aug 16 21:16:58 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 22:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <20200817021658.19E9918C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Peter Van Peborgh > From: Antonio Carlini > From: Jim Stephens Everyone: please DO NOT send messsages to CCTalk/CCTech with no Subject: line in the header: that results in un-linked, and thus un-clickable, entries in the archive (which some of, like me, use to read the list), e.g.: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2020-August/date.html Thank you. Noel From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Aug 17 01:12:35 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 08:12:35 +0200 Subject: Sage II, was: Re: Looking for a Stride OS set In-Reply-To: References: <13943b3e-c245-4dcf-eff6-da8cc253cc37@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <3b338269-c070-b93d-962a-7f96b4302599@e-bbes.com> On 2020-08-16 19:08, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I do, but my Sage II is currently packed away. I'd have to make a disk > copy, I dont have the ability to image the boot disks otherwise. If you > can find no other source let me know and I will make you an OS disk or two. If anybody would like to get rid of his Sage II machine, I would be very interested. ;-) From brendan at bslabs.net Mon Aug 17 02:22:52 2020 From: brendan at bslabs.net (Brendan Shanks) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 00:22:52 -0700 Subject: Sun/3-powered 737 flight sim Message-ID: <3C541662-7F71-48F9-960F-C78C80372084@bslabs.net> Something that I thought the folks here would appreciate: a fellow in Dubai is trying to keep a full-motion Boeing 737-300 sim (from 1991) running. The main host machine is a Sun/3E, connected over Ethernet to the operator workstation which has 2 Sun/3Es each with a cgtwo powering a CRT touch screen. One of the Sun VME SCSI/Ethernet boards died, and he?s been unable to find a (working) replacement board. There?s also a big rack of Concurrent hardware running OS/32, and some newer PCs for visuals and TCAS. Plenty of pictures and a video tour of all the hardware at: > Brendan From ccth6600 at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 02:43:06 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 15:43:06 +0800 Subject: SIMH on low overhead platform Message-ID: Has SIMH been ported to a low overhead (instant-on) platform? I ask the question because the startup time of Linux is distracting when powering on a PiDP-11/70 or similar clone systems based on SIMH. Thanks Tom Hunter From andrew at carrierdetect.com Mon Aug 17 03:16:58 2020 From: andrew at carrierdetect.com (Andrew Back) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 09:16:58 +0100 Subject: SIMH on low overhead platform In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1626e712-ffbc-1f0c-2979-7aeb984b8281@carrierdetect.com> On 17/08/2020 08:43, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Has SIMH been ported to a low overhead (instant-on) platform? > > I ask the question because the startup time of Linux is distracting when > powering on a PiDP-11/70 or similar clone systems based on SIMH. Haven't seen anything, but Linux can be made to boot much faster, e.g. if you have hardware which supports Coreboot firmware/BIOS, Linux can also be loaded from flash along with this, as its payload. So maybe this and a very minimal filesystem generated with something like OpenEmbedded, could be one approach. Also wondered if SimH could be ported to a UEFI application. The environment seems to provide some O/S like features, but no idea how much would be missing or significantly different. Andrew From lars at nocrew.org Mon Aug 17 04:08:50 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 09:08:50 +0000 Subject: SIMH on low overhead platform In-Reply-To: <1626e712-ffbc-1f0c-2979-7aeb984b8281@carrierdetect.com> (Andrew Back via cctalk's message of "Mon, 17 Aug 2020 09:16:58 +0100") References: <1626e712-ffbc-1f0c-2979-7aeb984b8281@carrierdetect.com> Message-ID: <7w7dtxr659.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Andrew Back wrote: > Also wondered if SimH could be ported to a UEFI application. The > environment seems to provide some O/S like features, but no idea how > much would be missing or significantly different. I made a set of stubs to compile and link a simulator without the SIMH framework. Empty stubs only, so it will not actually work. But they point to what kind of facilities would have to be provided to run a simulator on some other platform. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 10:13:51 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 17:13:51 +0200 Subject: SIMH on low overhead platform In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 09:43, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > Has SIMH been ported to a low overhead (instant-on) platform? > > I ask the question because the startup time of Linux is distracting when > powering on a PiDP-11/70 or similar clone systems based on SIMH. Not that I know of. I have been looking thoughtfully at Ultibo: https://ultibo.org/ It is a bare-metal FreePascal development environment for the RasPi 1 to 3B. I have not actually tried to build anything yet and my Pascal skills are 30y rusty now (and they were never that great anyway, but they're better than my C skills ever were). I believe it is possible to get Ultibo to load and execute a monolithic ARM binary, so long as it meets some requirements. I was pondering trying to built a statically-linked executable of Aranym: https://aranym.github.io/ Aranym already runs on the RasPi using Rasbian: https://sites.google.com/site/beebox68k/news/beepi10 But by the same token it ought to be possible to do this with SimH or anything else... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dk at thewaffleiron.net Mon Aug 17 11:30:17 2020 From: dk at thewaffleiron.net (David Kuder) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 12:30:17 -0400 Subject: SIMH on low overhead platform In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are multiple libraries for bare metal execution on the Pi, there are trade offs with device support. Circle comes to mind https://github.com/rsta2/circle On Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 11:14 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 09:43, Tom Hunter via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Has SIMH been ported to a low overhead (instant-on) platform? > > > > I ask the question because the startup time of Linux is distracting when > > powering on a PiDP-11/70 or similar clone systems based on SIMH. > > Not that I know of. > > I have been looking thoughtfully at Ultibo: > https://ultibo.org/ > > It is a bare-metal FreePascal development environment for the RasPi 1 to > 3B. > > I have not actually tried to build anything yet and my Pascal skills > are 30y rusty now (and they were never that great anyway, but they're > better than my C skills ever were). > > I believe it is possible to get Ultibo to load and execute a > monolithic ARM binary, so long as it meets some requirements. I was > pondering trying to built a statically-linked executable of Aranym: > > https://aranym.github.io/ > > Aranym already runs on the RasPi using Rasbian: > https://sites.google.com/site/beebox68k/news/beepi10 > > But by the same token it ought to be possible to do this with SimH or > anything else... > > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Aug 17 12:34:10 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 13:34:10 -0400 Subject: SIMH on low overhead platform In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0F3A255C-0042-402B-BA48-E1A027BECF8A@comcast.net> > On Aug 17, 2020, at 3:43 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > Has SIMH been ported to a low overhead (instant-on) platform? > > I ask the question because the startup time of Linux is distracting when > powering on a PiDP-11/70 or similar clone systems based on SIMH. > > Thanks > Tom Hunter I work with some storage systems (SAN arrays) that are layered on Linux and start in a small number of seconds. I haven't actually timed how fast, but it's pretty quick. NetBSD can also be made to start quite fast. So I would think you could take your favorite Unix-style OS and trim out all the unnecessary cruft from the startup. As an experiment, how fast does it start in single-user mode? You should certainly be able to go that quickly. Other options includes various RTOS. There are some supported on BeagleBone, that might be an option. I have wondered about running a minimal SIMH on Arduino. The newer ones use ARM-32 cores of one kind or another. I/O would be more limited, but it would be an interesting experiment to see if a small RT11 type system could run on a Trinket M0. The specs suggest it might be doable: 256 kB flash, 32 kB RAM, 5 GPIO including UART capability. Not a lot but certainly more than the small PDP-11 systems I ran RT11 V2 on. paul From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 17 12:50:36 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:50:36 -0700 Subject: SIMH on low overhead platform In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2763cbee-fae5-1d08-8ad8-60c6bfc10962@sydex.com> On 8/17/20 12:43 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Has SIMH been ported to a low overhead (instant-on) platform? > > I ask the question because the startup time of Linux is distracting when > powering on a PiDP-11/70 or similar clone systems based on SIMH. There are some very small versions of Linux that load quickly, particularly if you don't need GUI support. For example, BusyBox is a "stripped to the bones" Linux that finds its way into many (if not most) 'net appliances, such as modems and routers. I don't know if SIMH will run on it, but there are many other "small" Linuces. FWIW, Chuck From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 12:52:05 2020 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 13:52:05 -0400 Subject: Sun/3-powered 737 flight sim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 00:22:52 -0700 > From: Brendan Shanks > Subject: Sun/3-powered 737 flight sim > > Something that I thought the folks here would appreciate: a fellow in > Dubai is trying to keep a full-motion Boeing 737-300 sim (from 1991) > running. > The main host machine is a Sun/3E, connected over Ethernet to the operator > workstation which has 2 Sun/3Es each with a cgtwo powering a CRT touch > screen. One of the Sun VME SCSI/Ethernet boards died, and he?s been unable > to find a (working) replacement board. > > There?s also a big rack of Concurrent hardware running OS/32, and some > newer PCs for visuals and TCAS. > > Plenty of pictures and a video tour of all the hardware at: > < > https://www.reddit.com/r/BSD/comments/i8c8u7/how_do_i_emulate_a_sun_3e_computer_with_5018027/ > < > https://www.reddit.com/r/BSD/comments/i8c8u7/how_do_i_emulate_a_sun_3e_computer_with_5018027/ > >> > > Brendan > I have a Sun 3/E, including a SCSI/Ethernet board, that ran fine the last time it was powered on. There is a collector in southern Germany who also has a 3/E board set. I didn't see any contact information for the simulator owners. -- Michael Thompson From fgueissaz59 at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 13:08:16 2020 From: fgueissaz59 at gmail.com (Francois Gueissaz) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 20:08:16 +0200 Subject: MOS MCS2529 math chip Message-ID: <935C64CC-C9FE-404D-8022-1D1270B7ED4A@gmail.com> Hi Jules, Still interested to find out about powering the Melcor SC-635? I got one and succeeded to power it from 2.2 to 3.0V There is a switching regulator on the PCB (AS1930 from Astec International) that generates negative voltages (as referred to the negative side of the battery: -12.4V , -4.8V , and -2.0V At 2.4V, the current drain varies from 71mA (idle mode) to 185mA (all LED segments lit). For some strange reason, this current rises to 211mA when the C/CE key is pressed I will design a substitute power supply based on a single Li-ion battery with step-down regulator to deliver 2.4V Best regards Francois From abs at absd.org Mon Aug 17 14:06:42 2020 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 20:06:42 +0100 Subject: Sun Ultra 10 - openBSD 6.7+Creator3D+sunffb: Xorg and xenocara freeze the system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 at 17:50, Vasile Buruiana via cctalk wrote: > > Greetings. > > I would like to solve a mistery regarding graphical user interface on a Sun > Ultra 10+ Creator3D UPA graphics card, running OpenBSD 6.7/sparc64. > Everything works fine with Solaris 10. Did anybody manage to get X running > on openBSD? Sparc64 support is somehow bogus so I feel that if I talk to > them, there will be no answer. sparc framebuffer support in NetBSD is pretty good - possibly someone could port some of the changes across? (I'm assuming your setup should Just Work - may be worth test booting a NetBSD image to make sure) David From bvasea at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 14:46:59 2020 From: bvasea at gmail.com (Vasile Buruiana) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 22:46:59 +0300 Subject: Sun Ultra 10 - openBSD 6.7+Creator3D+sunffb: Xorg and xenocara freeze the system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In the mean time I put my three little Ultra 10s to hard work and finally I solved the mistery:. One ultra10 has a creatir3d, one has an elite3d with creatir driver assigned, the last one is using the on-board ati video card (no UPA card). Here is what I did: - installed openbsd 6.7 without any x-related packages; - recompiled xenocara according to the 'readme'; - after carefully consulted the man page, I inserted the following xorg.conf in /etc/X11: Section "ServerLayout" Identifier "Xenocara Configured" Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0 InputDevice "Mouse0" "CorePointer" InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard" Option "Xinerama" "On" EndSection Section "Files" RgbPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/rgb" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc/" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/TTF/" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1/" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/CID/" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/" EndSection Section "Module" EndSection Section "InputDevice" Identifier "Keyboard0" Driver "kbd" Option "Protocol" "wskbd" Option "Device" "/dev/wskbd0" EndSection Section "InputDevice" Identifier "Mouse0" Driver "mouse" Option "Protocol" "SunMouse" Option "Device" "/dev/tty00" Option "BaudRate" "1200" EndSection Section "Monitor" Identifier "Monitor" VendorName "Eizo" ModelName "FlexScan F563-T"8 HorizSync 31.5-60 VertRefresh 50-70 EndSection Section "Device" Identifier "creator0" Driver "wsfb" Option "device" "/dev/ttyD0" Option "ReferenceClock" "28.636" Option "UseFBDev" "true" Option "accel" "True" VendorName "Elite3D" # according to dmesg BoardName "SUNW" EndSection Section "Screen" Identifier "Screen0" Device "creator0" Monitor "Monitor" EndSection ____________________________________ option device -> /dev/ttyD0 is the creator3d/elite3D UPA card, /dev/ttyC0 is the onboard ati card. driver "sunffb" not working. driver "wildcatfb" also not working - that's for expert3d and xvr UPA cards with "wild cat labs" labels on their chips. I did not try that xorg.conf + creator3d + included x-related packages (no xenocara) yet. It may work. Hardware acceleration sucks for both creator 3D and Elite 3D - I have both boards. The performance is close to Solaris 10+ original drivers. However it is far better than on-board ATI. 640x480 MPEG movies render bad, they drop frames: mplayer + xv and +sdl. I wonder how xvr1000 performs. Vasili www.linkedin.com/in/vasea On Monday, August 17, 2020, David Brownlee wrote: > On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 at 17:50, Vasile Buruiana via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Greetings. > > > > I would like to solve a mistery regarding graphical user interface on a > Sun > > Ultra 10+ Creator3D UPA graphics card, running OpenBSD 6.7/sparc64. > > Everything works fine with Solaris 10. Did anybody manage to get X > running > > on openBSD? Sparc64 support is somehow bogus so I feel that if I talk to > > them, there will be no answer. > > sparc framebuffer support in NetBSD is pretty good - possibly someone > could port some of the changes across? (I'm assuming your setup should > Just Work - may be worth test booting a NetBSD image to make sure) > > David > From eg90804 at groenenberg.net Mon Aug 17 14:53:30 2020 From: eg90804 at groenenberg.net (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 19:53:30 +0000 Subject: SIMH on low overhead platform In-Reply-To: <2763cbee-fae5-1d08-8ad8-60c6bfc10962@sydex.com> References: <2763cbee-fae5-1d08-8ad8-60c6bfc10962@sydex.com> Message-ID: August 17, 2020 7:50 PM, "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" wrote: > On 8/17/20 12:43 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > >> Has SIMH been ported to a low overhead (instant-on) platform? >> >> I ask the question because the startup time of Linux is distracting when >> powering on a PiDP-11/70 or similar clone systems based on SIMH. > > There are some very small versions of Linux that load quickly, > particularly if you don't need GUI support. For example, BusyBox is a > "stripped to the bones" Linux that finds its way into many (if not most) > 'net appliances, such as modems and routers. > > I don't know if SIMH will run on it, but there are many other "smal > Linuces. > > FWIW, > Chuck Until about a year ago, I had a home made device which was an interface between a modified version SIMH and a real 11/70 console. SIMH did run on a mini-itx PC with a 1GHz via processor running ttylinux. Ttylinux did consist of a V2 or V3 linux kernel, busybox for the commandset and dropbear for ssh. To get the bash prompt (no login was required) it only took 15 seconds to boot from a flash memory card. Unfortunately, the maintainer of ttylinux has stopped the development for the buildenvironment, but I have the version 14 and 16. It has support for the Beaglebone, but not for the Rpi. Still it might not be too difficult to create the config files and other build stuff to make it work. If anyone want to give it a shot, let me know and I'll place it on my website for download (about 24Mb). Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta 😆 From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Aug 17 18:25:59 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:25:59 -0700 Subject: Sun/3-powered 737 flight sim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2020, at 10:52 AM, Michael Thompson via cctalk wrote: > > I have a Sun 3/E, including a SCSI/Ethernet board, that ran fine the last > time it was powered on. There is a collector in southern Germany who also > has a 3/E board set. I didn't see any contact information for the simulator > owners. The originator of the Reddit thread works on this simulator and is the point of contact. They're really interested in moving off the Sun 3/e rather than continuing to try to get spare parts etc. I've also suggested they check the capacitors and fuses, especially on the Ethernet/SCSI cards, since the originator claims multiple failures. The Ethernet fuse in particular is likely very easy to trip because people these days aren't used to AUI adapters which generally *can not* be hot-plugged without blowing a fuse. -- Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Aug 17 18:28:57 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:28:57 -0700 Subject: SIMH on low overhead platform In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61601CA5-97A7-4910-A82B-DB317B363BFD@eschatologist.net> On Aug 17, 2020, at 12:43 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > Has SIMH been ported to a low overhead (instant-on) platform? > > I ask the question because the startup time of Linux is distracting when > powering on a PiDP-11/70 or similar clone systems based on SIMH. NetBSD runs SIMH just fine and can be made to boot extremely quickly. I use NetBSD on a surplus HP ProLiant DL360p Gen8, NetBSD 9.0-stable boots in just a few seconds. The hardware itself takes a couple minutes to go through its bootstrap process, however. (I should have considered setting up ESXi and installing NetBSD atop that to avoid the hardware boot process, since I'm regularly rebuilding and updating NetBSD?) -- Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Aug 17 18:34:08 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:34:08 -0700 Subject: SIMH on low overhead platform In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15C329E1-4CB6-4863-ADCB-02AD6F0224B8@eschatologist.net> One thing that would make it much easier to experiment with SIMH in scenarios like this is if its build system wasn't horribly redundant. It genuinely looks like someone looked at make and said "How can I turn this into a procedural scripting system?" and then wrote the SIMH makefile in that style. It should only take a couple seconds to build SIMH but instead it takes a couple minutes, rebuilds a ton of things redundantly, and runs all sorts of testing as a side-effect (instead of having that under a separate target). At one point I worked out that most of the preprocessor macros fall into just a couple of buckets so building SIMH could be separated into building just a couple of libsimh libraries from the same sources (one for 32-bit simulated pointers, one for 64-bit simulated pointers) and then most of the rest of the targets could *just* be the target-specific sources plus the right libsimh. Unfortunately (1) I can't contribute back that change if I make it without jumping through a lot of bureaucratic hoops (employment agreement) and (2) the current maintainer appears to not want to hear any criticism whatsoever of SIMH's build system. -- Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Aug 17 18:36:40 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:36:40 -0700 Subject: SIMH on low overhead platform In-Reply-To: <61601CA5-97A7-4910-A82B-DB317B363BFD@eschatologist.net> References: <61601CA5-97A7-4910-A82B-DB317B363BFD@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2020, at 4:28 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > > NetBSD runs SIMH just fine and can be made to boot extremely quickly. Oh yeah, NetBSD 9.0-stable 64-bit also only takes a few seconds to boot on a Raspberry Pi 3B+. It's easy enough to just throw on an SD card and try out. Alas the Raspberry Pi 4 isn't supported yet by NetBSD, though I think it's coming along. An RPi4 with 4 or 8GB of RAM should be a very nice turnkey SIMH server. -- Chris From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 18:44:11 2020 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 19:44:11 -0400 Subject: Sun/3-powered 737 flight sim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have also seen the SCSI terminator power fuse blow when the terminator is hot plugged. On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 7:26 PM Chris Hanson wrote: > On Aug 17, 2020, at 10:52 AM, Michael Thompson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I have a Sun 3/E, including a SCSI/Ethernet board, that ran fine the last > > time it was powered on. There is a collector in southern Germany who also > > has a 3/E board set. I didn't see any contact information for the > simulator > > owners. > > The originator of the Reddit thread works on this simulator and is the > point of contact. > > They're really interested in moving off the Sun 3/e rather than continuing > to try to get spare parts etc. I've also suggested they check the > capacitors and fuses, especially on the Ethernet/SCSI cards, since the > originator claims multiple failures. The Ethernet fuse in particular is > likely very easy to trip because people these days aren't used to AUI > adapters which generally *can not* be hot-plugged without blowing a fuse. > > -- Chris > > -- Michael Thompson From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Aug 17 18:46:04 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:46:04 -0700 Subject: Sun/3-powered 737 flight sim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, there's good reason more modern AUI-based Ethernet and more modern SCSI systems use resettable polyfuses... -- Chris > On Aug 17, 2020, at 4:44 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > > I have also seen the SCSI terminator power fuse blow when the terminator is hot plugged. > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 7:26 PM Chris Hanson > wrote: > On Aug 17, 2020, at 10:52 AM, Michael Thompson via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I have a Sun 3/E, including a SCSI/Ethernet board, that ran fine the last > > time it was powered on. There is a collector in southern Germany who also > > has a 3/E board set. I didn't see any contact information for the simulator > > owners. > > The originator of the Reddit thread works on this simulator and is the point of contact. > > They're really interested in moving off the Sun 3/e rather than continuing to try to get spare parts etc. I've also suggested they check the capacitors and fuses, especially on the Ethernet/SCSI cards, since the originator claims multiple failures. The Ethernet fuse in particular is likely very easy to trip because people these days aren't used to AUI adapters which generally *can not* be hot-plugged without blowing a fuse. > > -- Chris > > > > -- > Michael Thompson From cube1 at charter.net Mon Aug 17 20:41:46 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 20:41:46 -0500 Subject: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express? In-Reply-To: References: <20200630182745.GA22324@RawFedDogs.net> <9E08A7FF-3FE9-4C59-9BFA-741649D560BE@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <92153191-fa8f-46fb-c83b-f58100a2b4b4@charter.net> Bill, did you ever cross paths with Dan Nissen or Karen Nissen? Friends from U. Wisconsin (and Karen also worked at WisDOT for a while after I started there, before they both went off to MPLS.) JRJ On 6/30/2020 8:05 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 6/30/20 6:29 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> Why would one get OS/2200 when they can get >> https://www.unisys.com/offerings/clearpath-forward/clearpath-forward-products/clearpath-mcp-software/clearpath-mcp-express >> ? >> > > Because I very much enjoyed working on Exec-8 on the 1100 lo those > 40 years ago.? :-) > > bill From cube1 at charter.net Mon Aug 17 20:44:16 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 20:44:16 -0500 Subject: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express? In-Reply-To: References: <20200630182745.GA22324@RawFedDogs.net> <9E08A7FF-3FE9-4C59-9BFA-741649D560BE@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: > > I really liked MASM and PLUS. > I remember two ERs, ADED$ and SMOQUE$. With the latter I was able to move my print out to the top of the queue ? > IIRC, with ADED$ you could assign (and lock) a CPU to your program. A silly mistake in my MASM program ?ate? all three CPUs of the 1100/63. Everything froze, and even on the console in the computer room response was extremely slow. $! had no immediate effect! > > Those were the days! I think I will try to get 2200 running, but I am afraid I forgot most of it (if not all), it?s been over 20 years. > > Henk > I had a chance to play with PLUS while I was a student at U. Wisconsin. It was for an independent study course, using a new EXEC the sysprogs had written to provide access to the batch job queue. Managed to crash the 1108 (or maybe it was the 1110) twice in a row owing to a bug in their EXEC. ;) Later they adapted (or completely rewrote) it, and had the job queue displayed on TV screens down in the basement of the Computer Science building in Madison. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Mon Aug 17 20:46:37 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 20:46:37 -0500 Subject: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express? In-Reply-To: <20200701172357.GA1071@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20200630182745.GA22324@RawFedDogs.net> <9E08A7FF-3FE9-4C59-9BFA-741649D560BE@snowmoose.com> <20200701172357.GA1071@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <3f47bb20-c8e1-64d1-600d-7c27a5ebdcd7@charter.net> On 7/1/2020 12:23 PM, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 09:17:47AM -0400, Michael Kerpan via cctalk wrote: > >> This thread has been truly enlightening. I had no idea that UniSys had >> hobbyist versions of both their Univac and Burroughs stuff available. > > I'm very happy to find that MCP Express is available to hobbyists. I > currently know very little about Burroughs mainframes. I've searched > several times in the past for Burroughs emulators. > > I found a nice series of blog posts on getting started with MCP Express: > > https://Unite.org/wp/getting-started-with-mcp-express/ > > I read most of the posts last night, and received my MCP Express download > link this morning. I'll download and install it as soon as I get home this > evening. > > There are a couple of B5500 emulators out there. One I have worked with is pretty much fully functional, but I believe there are more than one. B5500 System Tapes are also available online. Contact me if you need links - might take me a few minutes to hunt them down. JRJ From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Tue Aug 18 00:25:15 2020 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 08:25:15 +0300 Subject: Sun/3-powered 737 flight sim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I?ve attached different AUI transceivers to Sun3/E SCSI/Ethernet at least 100 times while running and nothing happened. The Sun 3/E prom has on board diagnostic which could provide more information on the failure. On Tuesday, August 18, 2020, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > On Aug 17, 2020, at 10:52 AM, Michael Thompson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I have a Sun 3/E, including a SCSI/Ethernet board, that ran fine the last > > time it was powered on. There is a collector in southern Germany who also > > has a 3/E board set. I didn't see any contact information for the > simulator > > owners. > > The originator of the Reddit thread works on this simulator and is the > point of contact. > > They're really interested in moving off the Sun 3/e rather than continuing > to try to get spare parts etc. I've also suggested they check the > capacitors and fuses, especially on the Ethernet/SCSI cards, since the > originator claims multiple failures. The Ethernet fuse in particular is > likely very easy to trip because people these days aren't used to AUI > adapters which generally *can not* be hot-plugged without blowing a fuse. > > -- Chris > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 18 10:00:37 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:00:37 +0100 Subject: Sun/3-powered 737 flight sim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 18/08/2020 06:25, Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk wrote: > I?ve attached different AUI transceivers to Sun3/E SCSI/Ethernet at least > 100 times while running and nothing happened. The Sun 3/E prom has on board > diagnostic which could provide more information on the failure. I must admit I was a little surprised by the statement that AUI cables cannot be hot-plugged safely. I certainly don't remember any such restriction back in the day (although it's entirely possible that I was never told or have forgotten). Anyone got a definitive statement from anywhere? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Tue Aug 18 10:58:45 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 10:58:45 -0500 Subject: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express? In-Reply-To: <3f47bb20-c8e1-64d1-600d-7c27a5ebdcd7@charter.net> References: <20200630182745.GA22324@RawFedDogs.net> <9E08A7FF-3FE9-4C59-9BFA-741649D560BE@snowmoose.com> <20200701172357.GA1071@RawFedDogs.net> <3f47bb20-c8e1-64d1-600d-7c27a5ebdcd7@charter.net> Message-ID: <20200818155845.GA9591@RawFedDogs.net> Jay, On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 08:46:37PM -0500, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > There are a couple of B5500 emulators out there. One I have worked with > is pretty much fully functional, but I believe there are more than one. > B5500 System Tapes are also available online. Contact me if you need > links - might take me a few minutes to hunt them down. I'm an emulator addict, so I'd definitely be interested in checking out the available emulators. Bing found: https://GitHub.com/pkimpel/retro-b5500/ and https://GitHub.com/stacklover/b5500emulator The first lead me to the software available at: http://www.PHKimpel.us/B5500/webSite/SoftwareRequest.html and https://GitHub.com/retro-software/B5500-software The first emulator is web based, and the second fails to build. I'm not a fan of web interfaces. Are there any other B5500 emulators and/or software that Bing missed? -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From lars at nocrew.org Tue Aug 18 11:34:36 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:34:36 +0000 Subject: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express? In-Reply-To: <20200818155845.GA9591@RawFedDogs.net> (Kevin Monceaux via cctalk's message of "Tue, 18 Aug 2020 10:58:45 -0500") References: <20200630182745.GA22324@RawFedDogs.net> <9E08A7FF-3FE9-4C59-9BFA-741649D560BE@snowmoose.com> <20200701172357.GA1071@RawFedDogs.net> <3f47bb20-c8e1-64d1-600d-7c27a5ebdcd7@charter.net> <20200818155845.GA9591@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <7weeo3oqub.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Kevin Monceaux wrote: > The first emulator is web based, and the second fails to build. I'm > not a fan of web interfaces. Are there any other B5500 emulators > and/or software that Bing missed? Richard Cornwell added one to SIMH: https://github.com/simh/simh/tree/master/B5500 From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Tue Aug 18 11:48:06 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 11:48:06 -0500 Subject: SimH B5500 Emulator with MCP XIII (Was: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express?) In-Reply-To: <7weeo3oqub.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <20200630182745.GA22324@RawFedDogs.net> <9E08A7FF-3FE9-4C59-9BFA-741649D560BE@snowmoose.com> <20200701172357.GA1071@RawFedDogs.net> <3f47bb20-c8e1-64d1-600d-7c27a5ebdcd7@charter.net> <20200818155845.GA9591@RawFedDogs.net> <7weeo3oqub.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <20200818164806.GA29990@RawFedDogs.net> Lars, On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 04:34:36PM +0000, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > Richard Cornwell added one to SIMH: > > https://github.com/simh/simh/tree/master/B5500 Nice. I already had a git clone of the SIMH git repo that had it in it. I probably tried unsuccessfully in the past to find software to run on it, then forgot about it. My terrible memory is inconvenient at times. It built successfully, and Bing found documentation on running MCP XIII on it at: https://Sky-Visions.com/burroughs/B5500_quick_start.pdf I'll give it a try as soon as I have time. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Aug 18 19:50:45 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 18:50:45 -0600 Subject: SIMH on low overhead platform In-Reply-To: <15C329E1-4CB6-4863-ADCB-02AD6F0224B8@eschatologist.net> References: <15C329E1-4CB6-4863-ADCB-02AD6F0224B8@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On 8/17/20 5:34 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > One thing that would make it much easier to experiment with SIMH in > scenarios like this is if its build system wasn't horribly redundant. Why are you mentioning SIMH's /build/ system in a thread discussion boot times? I wouldn't object if SIMH's /build/ took 20 minutes if it's something that only happens every 3-12 months while starting on a tiny Linux / *BSD / et al. system that /boots/ in a low number of seconds. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 18 20:56:53 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 20:56:53 -0500 Subject: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express? In-Reply-To: <20200818155845.GA9591@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20200630182745.GA22324@RawFedDogs.net> <9E08A7FF-3FE9-4C59-9BFA-741649D560BE@snowmoose.com> <20200701172357.GA1071@RawFedDogs.net> <3f47bb20-c8e1-64d1-600d-7c27a5ebdcd7@charter.net> <20200818155845.GA9591@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <99ad7d4e-2b49-84e4-4dff-51189ca0ce55@charter.net> On 8/18/2020 10:58 AM, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote: On 8/18/2020 10:58 AM, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote:> Jay, > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 08:46:37PM -0500, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > >> There are a couple of B5500 emulators out there. One I have worked with >> is pretty much fully functional, but I believe there are more than one. >> B5500 System Tapes are also available online. Contact me if you need >> links - might take me a few minutes to hunt them down. > > I'm an emulator addict, so I'd definitely be interested in checking out the > available emulators. Bing found: > > https://GitHub.com/pkimpel/retro-b5500/ > > and > > https://GitHub.com/stacklover/b5500emulator > Did you try contacting that particular author? His github info indicates it should run under Cygwin on Windows or Linux. > The first lead me to the software available at: > > http://www.PHKimpel.us/B5500/webSite/SoftwareRequest.html > > and > > https://GitHub.com/retro-software/B5500-software > > The first emulator is web based, and the second fails to build. I'm not a > fan of web interfaces. Are there any other B5500 emulators and/or software > that Bing missed? > https://github.com/smcharg/B5500 is the one that I have used - helped a tiny bit with identifying some issues using extended Algol code I wrote in 1969. The repository is private, however, and I don't see an email address for him on Github. I'm not comfortable sharing his contact info without his permission. Software, recovered by my buddy Paul Pierce (or is at least available from his website) http://www.piercefuller.com/library/magtape7.html?id=magtape7 From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 18 21:07:40 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 21:07:40 -0500 Subject: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express? In-Reply-To: <20200818155845.GA9591@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20200630182745.GA22324@RawFedDogs.net> <9E08A7FF-3FE9-4C59-9BFA-741649D560BE@snowmoose.com> <20200701172357.GA1071@RawFedDogs.net> <3f47bb20-c8e1-64d1-600d-7c27a5ebdcd7@charter.net> <20200818155845.GA9591@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: On 8/18/2020 10:58 AM, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote: > > The first emulator is web based, and the second fails to build. I'm not a > fan of web interfaces. Are there any other B5500 emulators and/or software > that Bing missed? > > This post might also be informative: http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/pipermail/simh/2016-January/014478.html Which refers to https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/retro-b5500 Which seems to be pretty active You might try Unite to contact Sid: https://unite.org/wp/members/smcharg/ From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Aug 18 21:52:47 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 19:52:47 -0700 Subject: SIMH on low overhead platform In-Reply-To: References: <15C329E1-4CB6-4863-ADCB-02AD6F0224B8@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2020, at 5:50 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 8/17/20 5:34 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: >> One thing that would make it much easier to experiment with SIMH in scenarios like this is if its build system wasn't horribly redundant. > > Why are you mentioning SIMH's /build/ system in a thread discussion boot times? Did you miss the part where I said it would make it much easier to experiment with it if the build system was better? For example, switching between different networking implementations can require a rebuild. > I wouldn't object if SIMH's /build/ took 20 minutes if it's something that only happens every 3-12 months while starting on a tiny Linux / *BSD / et al. system that /boots/ in a low number of seconds. SIMH improves quickly enough that you won't want to do a 20 minute build every 3-12 months, but instead perform new builds with some regularity. Between that and ease of experimenting (or the lack thereof) a bad build system can really hold back a project. -- Chris From steven at malikoff.com Tue Aug 18 22:15:06 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 13:15:06 +1000 Subject: Alto II keyset connector plug identification Message-ID: <02f781800e8aa0340ee7335ccef5abd1.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Would anyone be able to identify the 19 pin connector used on the Alto II keyset? Shown in the second photo on https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X124.82C The Xerox engineering doc (209962B_Alto_II_Assembly_Keyset.pdf) has it as P/N DE51218-1 if I interpret it correctly. I've looked for a while and the closest I can find appears to be Mouser p/n 2DEF19P The cost of 136 USD (each!) is more than I (and perhaps everyone else) would really like to pay, and that's only for the male end. Ideally I would like a datasheet on this original connector if possible, to know the pin-pin spacing and the pressed metal surround dimensions. I've just ordered small trial quantities of screws, microswitches, e-clips, nutserts, rods and so on for my keyset lookalikes/workalikes. Also about to start the key mapping to F5-F9 using a popular small SOC board, which is small enough to be inside a custom printed shell that the keyset plugs into. That is, the 3-row 19-pin female connector side which goes through to USB. I was thinking there's no reason it shouldn't be able to work using the original connector with a real keyset-less Alto, should any such animal be lurking out there. Hence looking at the feasibility of placing in a 19 pin male-female connector arrangement rather than the fallback of straight-through to USB. The whole thing is still at prototype stage so even if it doesn't work out, well I will at least have a bunch of additions to my nuts/bolts/fasteners/switches stash. Thanks for any help, Steve. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 03:48:27 2020 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 01:48:27 -0700 Subject: Alto II keyset connector plug identification In-Reply-To: <02f781800e8aa0340ee7335ccef5abd1.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <02f781800e8aa0340ee7335ccef5abd1.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <7682023E-05D5-4BEE-ACC6-1D87BBDED94E@gmail.com> We had the same problem. It?s a DE-19 connector, fits in the same envelope has a DB-9, but 3 rows instead of 2. You can see in this video right around here: https://youtu.be/GMp5EAq-Elo?t=541 . ITT-canon used to make these. You can look them up on eBay, which is where we found ours. Make sure you don?t get a two row DB-19, which is a completely different animal. Marc > On Aug 18, 2020, at 8:15 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > ?Would anyone be able to identify the 19 pin connector used on the Alto II keyset? > Shown in the second photo on https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X124.82C > > The Xerox engineering doc (209962B_Alto_II_Assembly_Keyset.pdf) has it as P/N DE51218-1 if I interpret it correctly. > > I've looked for a while and the closest I can find appears to be Mouser p/n 2DEF19P > The cost of 136 USD (each!) is more than I (and perhaps everyone else) would really like to pay, and that's only for > the male end. > > Ideally I would like a datasheet on this original connector if possible, to know the pin-pin spacing and the pressed metal > surround dimensions. > > I've just ordered small trial quantities of screws, microswitches, e-clips, nutserts, rods and so on for my keyset > lookalikes/workalikes. Also about to start the key mapping to F5-F9 using a popular small SOC board, which is small enough > to be inside a custom printed shell that the keyset plugs into. > That is, the 3-row 19-pin female connector side which goes through to USB. > > I was thinking there's no reason it shouldn't be able to work using the original connector with a real keyset-less Alto, > should any such animal be lurking out there. Hence looking at the feasibility of placing in a 19 pin male-female > connector arrangement rather than the fallback of straight-through to USB. > > The whole thing is still at prototype stage so even if it doesn't work out, well I will at least have a bunch of additions > to my nuts/bolts/fasteners/switches stash. > > Thanks for any help, > > Steve. > From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Aug 19 07:01:16 2020 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 14:01:16 +0200 Subject: Sun/3-powered 737 flight sim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: tis 2020-08-18 klockan 16:00 +0100 skrev Antonio Carlini via cctalk: > On 18/08/2020 06:25, Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk wrote: > > I?ve attached different AUI transceivers to Sun3/E SCSI/Ethernet at > > least > > 100 times while running and nothing happened. The Sun 3/E prom has > > on board > > diagnostic which could provide more information on the failure. > > I must admit I was a little surprised by the statement that AUI > cables > cannot be hot-plugged safely. > > I certainly don't remember any such restriction back in the day > (although it's entirely possible that I was never told or have > forgotten). > > Anyone got a definitive statement from anywhere? > > Antonio > Neither I, but i'm really only knowledgeable of IPC/SS10/SS5 era , not so much 1+ for example. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Aug 19 09:12:51 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 09:12:51 -0500 Subject: Burroughs Emulators (Was: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express?) In-Reply-To: <99ad7d4e-2b49-84e4-4dff-51189ca0ce55@charter.net> References: <20200630182745.GA22324@RawFedDogs.net> <9E08A7FF-3FE9-4C59-9BFA-741649D560BE@snowmoose.com> <20200701172357.GA1071@RawFedDogs.net> <3f47bb20-c8e1-64d1-600d-7c27a5ebdcd7@charter.net> <20200818155845.GA9591@RawFedDogs.net> <99ad7d4e-2b49-84e4-4dff-51189ca0ce55@charter.net> Message-ID: <20200819141251.GA4880@RawFedDogs.net> Jay, On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 08:56:53PM -0500, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > Did you try contacting that particular author? His github info > indicates it should run under Cygwin on Windows or Linux. No. I checked the github issue tracker to see if a bug report had already been filed for the issue. Before I got around to filing one someone reminded me that a SIMH B5500 emulator was available. I have MCP MARK XIII and CANDE up and running on that emulator. I also have ClearPath MCP Express Release 6.0 up and running. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From john at ziaspace.com Wed Aug 19 12:55:20 2020 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 17:55:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: SIMH on low overhead platform Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2020, at 12:43 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > > > Has SIMH been ported to a low overhead (instant-on) platform? > > I use NetBSD on a surplus HP ProLiant DL360p Gen8, NetBSD 9.0-stable > boots in just a few seconds. The hardware itself takes a couple minutes > to go through its bootstrap process, however. (I should have considered > setting up ESXi and installing NetBSD atop that to avoid the hardware > boot process, since I'm regularly rebuilding and updating NetBSD?) It's funny, but it seems to be true that the pricier hardware takes longer to POST. I bought several AMD AM1 CPUs / motherboards when a set only cost $50 and I use them as routers running NetBSD. From power on to booting the kernel is less than three seconds. Getting to fully multiuser is less than 30 seconds, even with DHCP. > Oh yeah, NetBSD 9.0-stable 64-bit also only takes a few seconds to boot > on a Raspberry Pi 3B+. It's easy enough to just throw on an SD card and > try out. Alas the Raspberry Pi 4 isn't supported yet by NetBSD, though I > think it's coming along. An RPi4 with 4 or 8GB of RAM should be a very > nice turnkey SIMH server. Yes, the Pis boot very quickly. The Pi 4 is supported, but just not in NetBSD 9. The Pi 4 takes a wee bit longer to boot because it uses UEFI, but I think the difference in performance is well worth the extra few seconds. https://github.com/pftf/RPi4 https://twitter.com/AnachronistJohn/status/1287628712981049345 A bonus is that you can boot directly off of USB attached storage (although I'm still loading UEFI and the kernel off of the SD card). SIMH runs very well on the Pi 4. John From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 19:47:53 2020 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 17:47:53 -0700 Subject: Alto II keyset connector plug identification In-Reply-To: <7682023E-05D5-4BEE-ACC6-1D87BBDED94E@gmail.com> References: <02f781800e8aa0340ee7335ccef5abd1.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <7682023E-05D5-4BEE-ACC6-1D87BBDED94E@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's actually an ITT CANON ***2DE19P***, not a DE19 as Marc indicates. On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 1:48 AM Curious Marc via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > We had the same problem. It?s a DE-19 connector, fits in the same envelope > has a DB-9, but 3 rows instead of 2. You can see in this video right around > here: https://youtu.be/GMp5EAq-Elo?t=541 . ITT-canon used to make these. > You can look them up on eBay, which is where we found ours. Make sure you > don?t get a two row DB-19, which is a completely different animal. > Marc > > > On Aug 18, 2020, at 8:15 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ?Would anyone be able to identify the 19 pin connector used on the Alto > II keyset? > > Shown in the second photo on > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X124.82C > > > > The Xerox engineering doc (209962B_Alto_II_Assembly_Keyset.pdf) has it > as P/N DE51218-1 if I interpret it correctly. > > > > I've looked for a while and the closest I can find appears to be Mouser > p/n 2DEF19P > > The cost of 136 USD (each!) is more than I (and perhaps everyone else) > would really like to pay, and that's only for > > the male end. > > > > Ideally I would like a datasheet on this original connector if possible, > to know the pin-pin spacing and the pressed metal > > surround dimensions. > > > > I've just ordered small trial quantities of screws, microswitches, > e-clips, nutserts, rods and so on for my keyset > > lookalikes/workalikes. Also about to start the key mapping to F5-F9 > using a popular small SOC board, which is small enough > > to be inside a custom printed shell that the keyset plugs into. > > That is, the 3-row 19-pin female connector side which goes through to > USB. > > > > I was thinking there's no reason it shouldn't be able to work using the > original connector with a real keyset-less Alto, > > should any such animal be lurking out there. Hence looking at the > feasibility of placing in a 19 pin male-female > > connector arrangement rather than the fallback of straight-through to > USB. > > > > The whole thing is still at prototype stage so even if it doesn't work > out, well I will at least have a bunch of additions > > to my nuts/bolts/fasteners/switches stash. > > > > Thanks for any help, > > > > Steve. > > > From classiccmp at crash.com Wed Aug 19 21:55:02 2020 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 19:55:02 -0700 Subject: Network gear that supported StarLAN 1 (not 10) Message-ID: <7026007e-507d-1a4d-bd36-12ca50bdbaa6@crash.com> I was wondering if anybody remembers which networking vendors supported StarLAN 1, or 802.3e / 1Base5, back in the 1980s? Hoping to get product names and/or model numbers. I've come across some references to Western Digital, Micom-Interlan, Cross Comm Corp (Massachusetts), and Fox Research (later DCA?) possibly having offered products to bridge StarLAN to Ethernet. But in the few cases where I've seen a model (ex. Cross Comm 487 Series) I haven't been able to get past blurbs in Info World. I have one host interface, expect more to arrive shortly, and would love to track down a bridge/switch/router that might allow me to make them reachable from Ethernet. Thanks, --Steve. From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Wed Aug 19 21:14:56 2020 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 02:14:56 +0000 Subject: Alto II keyset connector plug identification In-Reply-To: References: <02f781800e8aa0340ee7335ccef5abd1.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <7682023E-05D5-4BEE-ACC6-1D87BBDED94E@gmail.com>, Message-ID: This place has the 2de19p connectors in their catalog. Kinda pricey though. https://www.onlinecomponents.com/keywordsearch.aspx?text=2de19p&pagenum=2 Sent from my iPhone On Aug 19, 2020, at 17:48, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: ?It's actually an ITT CANON ***2DE19P***, not a DE19 as Marc indicates. On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 1:48 AM Curious Marc via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: We had the same problem. It?s a DE-19 connector, fits in the same envelope has a DB-9, but 3 rows instead of 2. You can see in this video right around here: https://youtu.be/GMp5EAq-Elo?t=541 . ITT-canon used to make these. You can look them up on eBay, which is where we found ours. Make sure you don?t get a two row DB-19, which is a completely different animal. Marc On Aug 18, 2020, at 8:15 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: ?Would anyone be able to identify the 19 pin connector used on the Alto II keyset? Shown in the second photo on https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X124.82C The Xerox engineering doc (209962B_Alto_II_Assembly_Keyset.pdf) has it as P/N DE51218-1 if I interpret it correctly. I've looked for a while and the closest I can find appears to be Mouser p/n 2DEF19P The cost of 136 USD (each!) is more than I (and perhaps everyone else) would really like to pay, and that's only for the male end. Ideally I would like a datasheet on this original connector if possible, to know the pin-pin spacing and the pressed metal surround dimensions. I've just ordered small trial quantities of screws, microswitches, e-clips, nutserts, rods and so on for my keyset lookalikes/workalikes. Also about to start the key mapping to F5-F9 using a popular small SOC board, which is small enough to be inside a custom printed shell that the keyset plugs into. That is, the 3-row 19-pin female connector side which goes through to USB. I was thinking there's no reason it shouldn't be able to work using the original connector with a real keyset-less Alto, should any such animal be lurking out there. Hence looking at the feasibility of placing in a 19 pin male-female connector arrangement rather than the fallback of straight-through to USB. The whole thing is still at prototype stage so even if it doesn't work out, well I will at least have a bunch of additions to my nuts/bolts/fasteners/switches stash. Thanks for any help, Steve. From steven at malikoff.com Thu Aug 20 01:38:49 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 16:38:49 +1000 Subject: Alto II keyset connector plug identification In-Reply-To: References: <02f781800e8aa0340ee7335ccef5abd1.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <7682023E-05D5-4BEE-ACC6-1D87BBDED94E@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <74b57259cdc2843f8907edbe2058e9af.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Wayne/Ian/Marc reckoned > This place has the 2de19p connectors in their catalog. > Kinda pricey though. > https://www.onlinecomponents.com/keywordsearch.aspx?text=2de19p&pagenum=2 > > > On Aug 19, 2020, at 17:48, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > > ?It's actually an ITT CANON ***2DE19P***, not a DE19 as Marc indicates. > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 1:48 AM Curious Marc via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > We had the same problem. It?s a DE-19 connector, fits in the same envelope > has a DB-9, but 3 rows instead of 2. You can see in this video right around > here: https://youtu.be/GMp5EAq-Elo?t=541 . ITT-canon used to make these. > You can look them up on eBay, which is where we found ours. Make sure you > don?t get a two row DB-19, which is a completely different animal. > Marc Wayne, Ian, Marc, Thank you very much for pinning that one down for me so quickly. Yes they are fairly pricey, but at least that's a better price than Mouser. I had a thought, that if the pin spacing was on par with say a common 15-pin VGA male connector I could buy a bunch of dirt cheap Golden Dragon ones, set them up in the mill and run a high speed slitting saw diagonally between the pins (right though the block and metal surround in one go), and just add a plastic spacer to bump it out to the length of the 19-pin. After all there are only 6 pins used, and of those, just one (assuming common) that would be on the extended bit. Steve. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Aug 20 02:35:18 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 09:35:18 +0200 Subject: Alto II keyset connector plug identification In-Reply-To: <74b57259cdc2843f8907edbe2058e9af.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <02f781800e8aa0340ee7335ccef5abd1.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <7682023E-05D5-4BEE-ACC6-1D87BBDED94E@gmail.com> <74b57259cdc2843f8907edbe2058e9af.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <20200820073518.GA11736@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 04:38:49PM +1000, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: [...] > I had a thought, that if the pin spacing was on par with say a common 15-pin > VGA male connector I could buy a bunch of dirt cheap Golden Dragon ones, set > them up in the mill and run a high speed slitting saw diagonally between the > pins (right though the block and metal surround in one go), and just add a > plastic spacer to bump it out to the length of the 19-pin. After all there > are only 6 pins used, and of those, just one (assuming common) that would be > on the extended bit. Cutting-down a DA-26 might be a better bet, and they're only pennies more expensive than the DA-15 VGA connector. From spam at hell.org Thu Aug 20 00:50:38 2020 From: spam at hell.org (Mike Begley) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 05:50:38 +0000 Subject: Network gear that supported StarLAN 1 (not 10) In-Reply-To: <7026007e-507d-1a4d-bd36-12ca50bdbaa6@crash.com> References: <7026007e-507d-1a4d-bd36-12ca50bdbaa6@crash.com> Message-ID: Wow. I ran StarLan 1 around my apartment in college, using an AT&T 3b1 as the hub and a collection of 8088 PCs with 8-bit ISA cards scattered around. I could rlogin (not telnet, from my recollection) from any of the PCs to the 3B1, and dial out through a 14.4 modem into the university network. Only one at a time, mind you, I never got SL/IP or PPP running, but still, it was like living into the future. A network...in my own house! To my recollection, StarLan was entirely an AT&T product, and few if any other vendors supported it. I MAY still have the StarLan board for the 3B1 around (along with most of the 3B1 disassembled in parts). But all the PC cards, the hub and documentation are long gone. I believe I sold them to someone in Yellowknife, but this would have been well over a quarter century ago. You might be able to find some additional info in the archives in the comp.sys.3b1 usenet group. Shockingly, I just noted that has actually been a smattering of on-topic (not spam) chatter there in the last few years, even as recently as April, so there's a handul of users still out there with these machines in hand. Good luck, -mike -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Steven M Jones via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 7:55 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Network gear that supported StarLAN 1 (not 10) I was wondering if anybody remembers which networking vendors supported StarLAN 1, or 802.3e / 1Base5, back in the 1980s? Hoping to get product names and/or model numbers. I've come across some references to Western Digital, Micom-Interlan, Cross Comm Corp (Massachusetts), and Fox Research (later DCA?) possibly having offered products to bridge StarLAN to Ethernet. But in the few cases where I've seen a model (ex. Cross Comm 487 Series) I haven't been able to get past blurbs in Info World. I have one host interface, expect more to arrive shortly, and would love to track down a bridge/switch/router that might allow me to make them reachable from Ethernet. Thanks, --Steve. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Aug 20 06:30:32 2020 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 13:30:32 +0200 Subject: SIMH on low overhead platform In-Reply-To: References: <15C329E1-4CB6-4863-ADCB-02AD6F0224B8@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <20200820113032.2l3sg26oygp7i5ib@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2020-08-18 19:52:47 -0700, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > On Aug 18, 2020, at 5:50 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 8/17/20 5:34 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > > > One thing that would make it much easier to experiment with SIMH > > > in scenarios like this is if its build system wasn't horribly > > > redundant. > > > > Why are you mentioning SIMH's /build/ system in a thread > > discussion boot times? > > Did you miss the part where I said it would make it much easier to > experiment with it if the build system was better? For example, > switching between different networking implementations can require a > rebuild. It's debateable whether or not the all-in-one builds are good or bad. Ie. GCC went into quite some development effort to gain LTO (link-time optimization) up'n'running, which was built quite exactly to allow optimizations that would otherwise only be possible if all sources are compiled in one run. With any halfway modern hardware, build times probably don't really matter. Sure, if you're sitting in front of it waiting to finish a build, every second feels like ... ages. However, in my experience speed isn't really all that important. Correctness is. And the Makefile quite works, even without pulling in all the GNU autoconf or CMake stuff. > > I wouldn't object if SIMH's /build/ took 20 minutes if it's > > something that only happens every 3-12 months while starting on a > > tiny Linux / *BSD / et al. system that /boots/ in a low number of > > seconds. > > SIMH improves quickly enough that you won't want to do a 20 minute > build every 3-12 months, but instead perform new builds with some > regularity. On my laptop, a `make -j4' (building all simulators and running their tests) takes some 6min 20sec. Fair enough. Building just one (ie. ,/BIN/vax aka. vax3900 which I care the most about personally) is a matter of 21 seconds. Sure, that could be faster with careful dependency tracking, but that's okay for me. (What bugs me more is that Debian doesn't have up-to-date SIMH packages, so I have to either use that stuff from stone age or package it myself...) > Between that and ease of experimenting (or the lack thereof) a bad > build system can really hold back a project. I suspect that any one user probably only uses one or two simulators, not all of them. They compile in a timeframe of some 20 seconds. Most of all users won't be active SIMH hackers, so they will have that just once in a while when they `git pull'. If I were to start "from scratch" with SIMH, the steepest part in my learning curve was to get it properly configured to run something "useful." Building isn't a real issue IMHO. What would be worth a lot would be a repository of well-crafted configs along with proper startup and download scripts (for OS tapes / disk images.) MfG, JBG -- From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 12:06:38 2020 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (null) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 10:06:38 -0700 Subject: Alto II keyset connector plug identification In-Reply-To: <20200820073518.GA11736@mooli.org.uk> References: <20200820073518.GA11736@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <54034F46-FC16-484F-9B4C-09FDF5B6A908@gmail.com> > Cutting-down a DA-26 might be a better bet, and they're only pennies more > expensive than the DA-15 VGA connector. The pin thicknesses are different It is actually a very unusual connector. > On Aug 20, 2020, at 00:35, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > ?On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 04:38:49PM +1000, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> I had a thought, that if the pin spacing was on par with say a common 15-pin >> VGA male connector I could buy a bunch of dirt cheap Golden Dragon ones, set >> them up in the mill and run a high speed slitting saw diagonally between the >> pins (right though the block and metal surround in one go), and just add a >> plastic spacer to bump it out to the length of the 19-pin. After all there >> are only 6 pins used, and of those, just one (assuming common) that would be >> on the extended bit. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 20 12:09:43 2020 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 12:09:43 -0500 Subject: IBM and Calcomp gear rescue in Toronto area In-Reply-To: <20200820113032.2l3sg26oygp7i5ib@lug-owl.de> References: <15C329E1-4CB6-4863-ADCB-02AD6F0224B8@eschatologist.net> <20200820113032.2l3sg26oygp7i5ib@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20200820170959.8C1E1274C1@mx1.ezwind.net> https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/id17d2/i_need_vintagecomputings_help_in_the_early_1980s/ IBM 29 card punch IBM 2501 card reader IBM 3420 magnetic tape unit IBM 3803 tape control unit Calcomp 663 plotter Calcomp 770 plotter tape storage Remington tabulator and some relatively more modern printers, two daisywheels and a laser printer. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Aug 20 12:59:00 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 13:59:00 -0400 Subject: Network gear that supported StarLAN 1 (not 10) In-Reply-To: References: <7026007e-507d-1a4d-bd36-12ca50bdbaa6@crash.com> Message-ID: Starlan was pretty big in its' day. When I worked at IRD/Westinghouse in 1988 I walked into a Novell network that was running 2.01 on a Starlan network. If I recall there were 8 port hubs that were chained together in a daisy chain configuration: I think those were bell labs hubs. Anyway the PC's all had 8 bit ISA cards as well as the 286 server. It was good, relatively reliable, and ran on the existing twisted pair phone lines wired against 66 pin punchblocks and USOC wiring format. We bought a Synoptics LattisNet 10 later on and put a NP600 card in the server to route the traffic. The NP600 was sweet: It had an 80186 processor on board and could run a good chunk of the IPX stack on card so it didn't burden the CPU. Coupling that with a Novell smart disk adapter (which could do hardware mirroring and hot fix) and the CPU was surprisingly quiet on the server. Ah those were the days. It was after that job I got introduced to Arcnet.... On 8/20/2020 1:50 AM, Mike Begley via cctalk wrote: > Wow. I ran StarLan 1 around my apartment in college, using an AT&T 3b1 as the hub and a collection of 8088 PCs with 8-bit ISA cards scattered around. I could rlogin (not telnet, from my recollection) from any of the PCs to the 3B1, and dial out through a 14.4 modem into the university network. Only one at a time, mind you, I never got SL/IP or PPP running, but still, it was like living into the future. A network...in my own house! > > To my recollection, StarLan was entirely an AT&T product, and few if any other vendors supported it. > > I MAY still have the StarLan board for the 3B1 around (along with most of the 3B1 disassembled in parts). But all the PC cards, the hub and documentation are long gone. I believe I sold them to someone in Yellowknife, but this would have been well over a quarter century ago. > > You might be able to find some additional info in the archives in the comp.sys.3b1 usenet group. Shockingly, I just noted that has actually been a smattering of on-topic (not spam) chatter there in the last few years, even as recently as April, so there's a handul of users still out there with these machines in hand. > > Good luck, > > -mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Steven M Jones via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 7:55 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Network gear that supported StarLAN 1 (not 10) > > I was wondering if anybody remembers which networking vendors supported StarLAN 1, or 802.3e / 1Base5, back in the 1980s? Hoping to get product names and/or model numbers. > > I've come across some references to Western Digital, Micom-Interlan, Cross Comm Corp (Massachusetts), and Fox Research (later DCA?) possibly having offered products to bridge StarLAN to Ethernet. But in the few cases where I've seen a model (ex. Cross Comm 487 Series) I haven't been able to get past blurbs in Info World. > > I have one host interface, expect more to arrive shortly, and would love to track down a bridge/switch/router that might allow me to make them reachable from Ethernet. > > Thanks, > --Steve. > > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 13:15:23 2020 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 14:15:23 -0400 Subject: IBM and Calcomp gear rescue in Toronto area In-Reply-To: <20200820170959.8C1E1274C1@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <15C329E1-4CB6-4863-ADCB-02AD6F0224B8@eschatologist.net> <20200820113032.2l3sg26oygp7i5ib@lug-owl.de> <20200820170959.8C1E1274C1@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Ugh, those tape drives are gorgeous. -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 1:10 PM John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > < > https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/id17d2/i_need_vintagecomputings_help_in_the_early_1980s/ > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/id17d2/i_need_vintagecomputings_help_in_the_early_1980s/ > > IBM 29 card punch > IBM 2501 card reader > IBM 3420 magnetic tape unit > IBM 3803 tape control unit > Calcomp 663 plotter > Calcomp 770 plotter tape storage > Remington tabulator > and some relatively more modern printers, two daisywheels and a laser > printer. > > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Aug 20 14:10:44 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 12:10:44 -0700 Subject: SIMH on low overhead platform In-Reply-To: <20200820113032.2l3sg26oygp7i5ib@lug-owl.de> References: <15C329E1-4CB6-4863-ADCB-02AD6F0224B8@eschatologist.net> <20200820113032.2l3sg26oygp7i5ib@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <86F08617-D502-460D-AB2A-64AF161DC058@eschatologist.net> On Aug 20, 2020, at 4:30 AM, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > It's debateable whether or not the all-in-one builds are good or bad. > Ie. GCC went into quite some development effort to gain LTO (link-time > optimization) up'n'running, which was built quite exactly to allow > optimizations that would otherwise only be possible if all sources are > compiled in one run. Link-time optimization has been a thing for a few decades, independent of whether GCC & GNU ld supported it. And very few compilers actually do anything any differently when all of the sources are passed in one go; to follow the spec, the compiler must consider each compilation unit independently, which it'll typically do by spawning one compilation process per compilation unit. This also means the build system can't manage the build's parallelism, which is something you really want on a large project. > With any halfway modern hardware, build times probably don't really > matter. Sure, if you're sitting in front of it waiting to finish a > build, every second feels like ... ages. Build times really do still matter. On my modern hardware SIMH still takes long enough to build that it's a hassle. > However, in my experience speed isn't really all that important. > Correctness is. And the Makefile quite works, even without pulling in > all the GNU autoconf or CMake stuff. In my experience the more complex the Makefile, the less likely it is to be correct, and there's an enormous amount of unnecessary complexity in SIMH's Makefile?especially since it doesn't just build the simulators but also runs their tests without being instructed to. SIMH's Makefile results in a lot of unnecessary rebuilding and waiting. > On my laptop, a `make -j4' (building all simulators and running > their tests) takes some 6min 20sec. Fair enough. Building just one > (ie. ,/BIN/vax aka. vax3900 which I care the most about personally) is > a matter of 21 seconds. Sure, that could be faster with careful > dependency tracking, but that's okay for me. You don't even need careful dependency tracking to improve this, just regular make behavior. What's more, the way the Makefile is currently constructed interferes with your use of `make -j4` by producing unnecessary output. In short, cleaning up the build to work like any other make-based project would result in faster builds and make SIMH easier to work on for people interested in doing so. -- Chris From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Aug 20 17:39:02 2020 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 22:39:02 +0000 Subject: IBM and Calcomp gear rescue in Toronto area In-Reply-To: <20200820170959.8C1E1274C1@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <15C329E1-4CB6-4863-ADCB-02AD6F0224B8@eschatologist.net> <20200820113032.2l3sg26oygp7i5ib@lug-owl.de> <20200820170959.8C1E1274C1@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20200820223901.GA8117@lonesome.com> Please tell me someone is going to save this stuff so I don't have to annoy any of my Canadian friends :-) mcl From Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com Thu Aug 20 19:01:49 2020 From: Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 17:01:49 -0700 Subject: Alto II keyset connector plug identification In-Reply-To: <74b57259cdc2843f8907edbe2058e9af.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <02f781800e8aa0340ee7335ccef5abd1.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <7682023E-05D5-4BEE-ACC6-1D87BBDED94E@gmail.com>, <74b57259cdc2843f8907edbe2058e9af.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: I found a spec sheet for the connector here. https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1880767.pdf Wayne -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steve Malikoff via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 11:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Alto II keyset connector plug identification Wayne/Ian/Marc reckoned > This place has the 2de19p connectors in their catalog. > Kinda pricey though. > https://www.onlinecomponents.com/keywordsearch.aspx?text=2de19p&pagenu > m=2 > > > On Aug 19, 2020, at 17:48, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > > ?It's actually an ITT CANON ***2DE19P***, not a DE19 as Marc indicates. > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 1:48 AM Curious Marc via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > We had the same problem. It?s a DE-19 connector, fits in the same > envelope has a DB-9, but 3 rows instead of 2. You can see in this > video right around > here: https://youtu.be/GMp5EAq-Elo?t=541 . ITT-canon used to make these. > You can look them up on eBay, which is where we found ours. Make sure > you don?t get a two row DB-19, which is a completely different animal. > Marc Wayne, Ian, Marc, Thank you very much for pinning that one down for me so quickly. Yes they are fairly pricey, but at least that's a better price than Mouser. I had a thought, that if the pin spacing was on par with say a common 15-pin VGA male connector I could buy a bunch of dirt cheap Golden Dragon ones, set them up in the mill and run a high speed slitting saw diagonally between the pins (right though the block and metal surround in one go), and just add a plastic spacer to bump it out to the length of the 19-pin. After all there are only 6 pins used, and of those, just one (assuming common) that would be on the extended bit. Steve. From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Aug 20 19:02:57 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 17:02:57 -0700 Subject: IBM and Calcomp gear rescue in Toronto area In-Reply-To: References: <15C329E1-4CB6-4863-ADCB-02AD6F0224B8@eschatologist.net> <20200820113032.2l3sg26oygp7i5ib@lug-owl.de> <20200820170959.8C1E1274C1@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <00c65614-13cf-d765-07ac-90dc52310eaa@snowmoose.com> My aunt worked at Calcomp (not sure for how long but defintely in the late 70s), I think in QA. She sent me a couple test plots on some plastic back then and I still have them. I think it would be funny to rescue the plotter and send it to her, but it would probably need to be rescued again soon afterward. alan On 8/20/20 11:15 AM, Anders Nelson via cctech wrote: > Ugh, those tape drives are gorgeous. > > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 1:10 PM John Foust via cctalk > wrote: > >> >> < >> https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/id17d2/i_need_vintagecomputings_help_in_the_early_1980s/ >>> >> https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/id17d2/i_need_vintagecomputings_help_in_the_early_1980s/ >> >> IBM 29 card punch >> IBM 2501 card reader >> IBM 3420 magnetic tape unit >> IBM 3803 tape control unit >> Calcomp 663 plotter >> Calcomp 770 plotter tape storage >> Remington tabulator >> and some relatively more modern printers, two daisywheels and a laser >> printer. >> >> From george.rachor at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 19:14:50 2020 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 17:14:50 -0700 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... Message-ID: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Aug 21 00:44:14 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 22:44:14 -0700 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> On Aug 20, 2020, at 5:14 PM, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: > > I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? Do they have the same CPU?s, and the same version of Parallels? Might be something with the Windows install on the one? Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Aug 21 00:44:14 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 22:44:14 -0700 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> On Aug 20, 2020, at 5:14 PM, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: > > I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? Do they have the same CPU?s, and the same version of Parallels? Might be something with the Windows install on the one? Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Aug 21 00:58:08 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 22:58:08 -0700 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <19044FB8-B78E-4016-B95A-0B788D78245B@avanthar.com> Do you have ?Tech Tool Pro?, or anything like that? It sounds like you need to run some diag?s on the 17? one. Something isn?t right. If nothing else, run the mac disk check on it. I?m a big believer in DiskWarrior on the Mac. I assume these are the ones you got from Eco? That was a great tip, my wife and I are loving ours. Any idea if they?re still around? I stopped in at the new location in January, but I see the website is down now. Zane > On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:50 PM, George Rachor wrote: > > I?ll check in the morning but believe the 2 machines are identical except for screen size. I?ll also check for the same version of Parallels. I assume since these are 2010 machines I could upgrade the Parallels to current. They are both running High Sierra. > > On startup the 17? . Takes a very long time to show the desktop icons. I have the feeling the problem isn?t Parallels as there is slowness in email and iTunes without Parallels being started up. > > > George > > >> On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:44 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >> >> On Aug 20, 2020, at 5:14 PM, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? >> >> Do they have the same CPU?s, and the same version of Parallels? Might be something with the Windows install on the one? >> >> Zane >> >> > From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Aug 21 00:58:08 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 22:58:08 -0700 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <19044FB8-B78E-4016-B95A-0B788D78245B@avanthar.com> Do you have ?Tech Tool Pro?, or anything like that? It sounds like you need to run some diag?s on the 17? one. Something isn?t right. If nothing else, run the mac disk check on it. I?m a big believer in DiskWarrior on the Mac. I assume these are the ones you got from Eco? That was a great tip, my wife and I are loving ours. Any idea if they?re still around? I stopped in at the new location in January, but I see the website is down now. Zane > On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:50 PM, George Rachor wrote: > > I?ll check in the morning but believe the 2 machines are identical except for screen size. I?ll also check for the same version of Parallels. I assume since these are 2010 machines I could upgrade the Parallels to current. They are both running High Sierra. > > On startup the 17? . Takes a very long time to show the desktop icons. I have the feeling the problem isn?t Parallels as there is slowness in email and iTunes without Parallels being started up. > > > George > > >> On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:44 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >> >> On Aug 20, 2020, at 5:14 PM, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? >> >> Do they have the same CPU?s, and the same version of Parallels? Might be something with the Windows install on the one? >> >> Zane >> >> > From george.rachor at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 00:50:22 2020 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 22:50:22 -0700 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> I?ll check in the morning but believe the 2 machines are identical except for screen size. I?ll also check for the same version of Parallels. I assume since these are 2010 machines I could upgrade the Parallels to current. They are both running High Sierra. On startup the 17? . Takes a very long time to show the desktop icons. I have the feeling the problem isn?t Parallels as there is slowness in email and iTunes without Parallels being started up. George > On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:44 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > > On Aug 20, 2020, at 5:14 PM, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: >> >> I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? > > Do they have the same CPU?s, and the same version of Parallels? Might be something with the Windows install on the one? > > Zane > > From george.rachor at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 00:50:22 2020 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 22:50:22 -0700 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> I?ll check in the morning but believe the 2 machines are identical except for screen size. I?ll also check for the same version of Parallels. I assume since these are 2010 machines I could upgrade the Parallels to current. They are both running High Sierra. On startup the 17? . Takes a very long time to show the desktop icons. I have the feeling the problem isn?t Parallels as there is slowness in email and iTunes without Parallels being started up. George > On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:44 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > > On Aug 20, 2020, at 5:14 PM, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: >> >> I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? > > Do they have the same CPU?s, and the same version of Parallels? Might be something with the Windows install on the one? > > Zane > > From rwiker at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 01:11:29 2020 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:11:29 +0200 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A70236C-F06A-4A2C-9078-4574FC066413@gmail.com> It may be good idea to check the CPU temperature and the airflow inside the computer - dust buildup may reduce airflow and cooling, which in turn may cause CPU throttling. > On 21 Aug 2020, at 07:50, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: > > I?ll check in the morning but believe the 2 machines are identical except for screen size. I?ll also check for the same version of Parallels. I assume since these are 2010 machines I could upgrade the Parallels to current. They are both running High Sierra. > > On startup the 17? . Takes a very long time to show the desktop icons. I have the feeling the problem isn?t Parallels as there is slowness in email and iTunes without Parallels being started up. > > > George > > >> On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:44 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >> >> On Aug 20, 2020, at 5:14 PM, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? >> >> Do they have the same CPU?s, and the same version of Parallels? Might be something with the Windows install on the one? >> >> Zane >> >> > From rwiker at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 01:11:29 2020 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:11:29 +0200 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A70236C-F06A-4A2C-9078-4574FC066413@gmail.com> It may be good idea to check the CPU temperature and the airflow inside the computer - dust buildup may reduce airflow and cooling, which in turn may cause CPU throttling. > On 21 Aug 2020, at 07:50, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: > > I?ll check in the morning but believe the 2 machines are identical except for screen size. I?ll also check for the same version of Parallels. I assume since these are 2010 machines I could upgrade the Parallels to current. They are both running High Sierra. > > On startup the 17? . Takes a very long time to show the desktop icons. I have the feeling the problem isn?t Parallels as there is slowness in email and iTunes without Parallels being started up. > > > George > > >> On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:44 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >> >> On Aug 20, 2020, at 5:14 PM, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? >> >> Do they have the same CPU?s, and the same version of Parallels? Might be something with the Windows install on the one? >> >> Zane >> >> > From lars at nocrew.org Fri Aug 21 01:20:55 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 06:20:55 +0000 Subject: ITS version 671 from 1971 found Message-ID: <7wft8gfrjs.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> >From the incompatible department of classic computement: A rather complete full dump of the MIT-AI PDP-10 from 1971 has been found. It includes full source code and documentation for the system, including ITS version 671, DDT, TECO, MIDAS, (MAC)LISP, CHESS (MacHack), MUDDLE, LOGO, MACSYMA, etc. From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Aug 21 01:27:54 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 00:27:54 -0600 Subject: ITS version 671 from 1971 found In-Reply-To: <7wft8gfrjs.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wft8gfrjs.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 12:21 AM Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > From the incompatible department of classic computement: A rather > complete full dump of the MIT-AI PDP-10 from 1971 has been found. It > includes full source code and documentation for the system, including > ITS version 671, DDT, TECO, MIDAS, (MAC)LISP, CHESS (MacHack), MUDDLE, > LOGO, MACSYMA, etc. > Where? How? Will it be made available? Way cool Warner > From lars at nocrew.org Fri Aug 21 01:50:53 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 06:50:53 +0000 Subject: ITS version 671 from 1971 found In-Reply-To: (Warner Losh's message of "Fri, 21 Aug 2020 00:27:54 -0600") References: <7wft8gfrjs.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7w7dtsfq5u.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Warner Losh wrote: >> A rather complete full dump of the MIT-AI PDP-10 from 1971 has been >> found. > > Where? How? Will it be made available? Where: In the "ToTS" archives, see https://archivesspace.mit.edu/repositories/2/resources/1265 How: MIT has given me access to the archives, for research only. I'm not allowed to publish files, but I'm snooping around. Other people have been working on the material years ago, but this particular tape had escaped notice. Made available: It's up to MIT to decide. They previously released this on my suggestion: https://github.com/MITDDC/zork From george.rachor at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 01:10:44 2020 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 23:10:44 -0700 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <543D7960-8D7D-4CDB-BF0C-F03D0ED0884B@gmail.com> Oh ya.. Both are running the current version of ESET Internet security for what that is worth. No problems detected with full scans. George > On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:50 PM, George Rachor wrote: > > I?ll check in the morning but believe the 2 machines are identical except for screen size. I?ll also check for the same version of Parallels. I assume since these are 2010 machines I could upgrade the Parallels to current. They are both running High Sierra. > > On startup the 17? . Takes a very long time to show the desktop icons. I have the feeling the problem isn?t Parallels as there is slowness in email and iTunes without Parallels being started up. > > > George > > >> On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:44 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >> >> On Aug 20, 2020, at 5:14 PM, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? >> >> Do they have the same CPU?s, and the same version of Parallels? Might be something with the Windows install on the one? >> >> Zane >> >> > From george.rachor at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 01:10:44 2020 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 23:10:44 -0700 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <543D7960-8D7D-4CDB-BF0C-F03D0ED0884B@gmail.com> Oh ya.. Both are running the current version of ESET Internet security for what that is worth. No problems detected with full scans. George > On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:50 PM, George Rachor wrote: > > I?ll check in the morning but believe the 2 machines are identical except for screen size. I?ll also check for the same version of Parallels. I assume since these are 2010 machines I could upgrade the Parallels to current. They are both running High Sierra. > > On startup the 17? . Takes a very long time to show the desktop icons. I have the feeling the problem isn?t Parallels as there is slowness in email and iTunes without Parallels being started up. > > > George > > >> On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:44 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >> >> On Aug 20, 2020, at 5:14 PM, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? >> >> Do they have the same CPU?s, and the same version of Parallels? Might be something with the Windows install on the one? >> >> Zane >> >> > From george.rachor at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 01:18:14 2020 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 23:18:14 -0700 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: <19044FB8-B78E-4016-B95A-0B788D78245B@avanthar.com> References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> <19044FB8-B78E-4016-B95A-0B788D78245B@avanthar.com> Message-ID: I got the 17? just before Ecobinary moved from the Beaverton location. I have heard they are no more. They both have ESET internet security but will run Malware bytes in the morning. George > On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:58 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > > Do you have ?Tech Tool Pro?, or anything like that? It sounds like you need to run some diag?s on the 17? one. Something isn?t right. If nothing else, run the mac disk check on it. I?m a big believer in DiskWarrior on the Mac. > > I assume these are the ones you got from Eco? That was a great tip, my wife and I are loving ours. Any idea if they?re still around? I stopped in at the new location in January, but I see the website is down now. > > Zane > > > > >> On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:50 PM, George Rachor wrote: >> >> I?ll check in the morning but believe the 2 machines are identical except for screen size. I?ll also check for the same version of Parallels. I assume since these are 2010 machines I could upgrade the Parallels to current. They are both running High Sierra. >> >> On startup the 17? . Takes a very long time to show the desktop icons. I have the feeling the problem isn?t Parallels as there is slowness in email and iTunes without Parallels being started up. >> >> >> George >> >> >>> On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:44 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >>> >>> On Aug 20, 2020, at 5:14 PM, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? >>> >>> Do they have the same CPU?s, and the same version of Parallels? Might be something with the Windows install on the one? >>> >>> Zane >>> >>> >> > From george.rachor at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 01:18:14 2020 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 23:18:14 -0700 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: <19044FB8-B78E-4016-B95A-0B788D78245B@avanthar.com> References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> <19044FB8-B78E-4016-B95A-0B788D78245B@avanthar.com> Message-ID: I got the 17? just before Ecobinary moved from the Beaverton location. I have heard they are no more. They both have ESET internet security but will run Malware bytes in the morning. George > On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:58 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > > Do you have ?Tech Tool Pro?, or anything like that? It sounds like you need to run some diag?s on the 17? one. Something isn?t right. If nothing else, run the mac disk check on it. I?m a big believer in DiskWarrior on the Mac. > > I assume these are the ones you got from Eco? That was a great tip, my wife and I are loving ours. Any idea if they?re still around? I stopped in at the new location in January, but I see the website is down now. > > Zane > > > > >> On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:50 PM, George Rachor wrote: >> >> I?ll check in the morning but believe the 2 machines are identical except for screen size. I?ll also check for the same version of Parallels. I assume since these are 2010 machines I could upgrade the Parallels to current. They are both running High Sierra. >> >> On startup the 17? . Takes a very long time to show the desktop icons. I have the feeling the problem isn?t Parallels as there is slowness in email and iTunes without Parallels being started up. >> >> >> George >> >> >>> On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:44 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >>> >>> On Aug 20, 2020, at 5:14 PM, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? >>> >>> Do they have the same CPU?s, and the same version of Parallels? Might be something with the Windows install on the one? >>> >>> Zane >>> >>> >> > From george.rachor at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 01:20:03 2020 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 23:20:03 -0700 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: <4A70236C-F06A-4A2C-9078-4574FC066413@gmail.com> References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> <4A70236C-F06A-4A2C-9078-4574FC066413@gmail.com> Message-ID: NO excessive fan noise. I had the back off while changing disks and were pretty clean. Yes.. I could add temp monitoring to see if they are being throttled. George > On Aug 20, 2020, at 11:11 PM, Raymond Wiker wrote: > > It may be good idea to check the CPU temperature and the airflow inside the computer - dust buildup may reduce airflow and cooling, which in turn may cause CPU throttling. > >> On 21 Aug 2020, at 07:50, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: >> >> I?ll check in the morning but believe the 2 machines are identical except for screen size. I?ll also check for the same version of Parallels. I assume since these are 2010 machines I could upgrade the Parallels to current. They are both running High Sierra. >> >> On startup the 17? . Takes a very long time to show the desktop icons. I have the feeling the problem isn?t Parallels as there is slowness in email and iTunes without Parallels being started up. >> >> >> George >> >> >>> On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:44 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >>> >>> On Aug 20, 2020, at 5:14 PM, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? >>> >>> Do they have the same CPU?s, and the same version of Parallels? Might be something with the Windows install on the one? >>> >>> Zane >>> >>> >> > From george.rachor at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 01:20:03 2020 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 23:20:03 -0700 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: <4A70236C-F06A-4A2C-9078-4574FC066413@gmail.com> References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> <4A70236C-F06A-4A2C-9078-4574FC066413@gmail.com> Message-ID: NO excessive fan noise. I had the back off while changing disks and were pretty clean. Yes.. I could add temp monitoring to see if they are being throttled. George > On Aug 20, 2020, at 11:11 PM, Raymond Wiker wrote: > > It may be good idea to check the CPU temperature and the airflow inside the computer - dust buildup may reduce airflow and cooling, which in turn may cause CPU throttling. > >> On 21 Aug 2020, at 07:50, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: >> >> I?ll check in the morning but believe the 2 machines are identical except for screen size. I?ll also check for the same version of Parallels. I assume since these are 2010 machines I could upgrade the Parallels to current. They are both running High Sierra. >> >> On startup the 17? . Takes a very long time to show the desktop icons. I have the feeling the problem isn?t Parallels as there is slowness in email and iTunes without Parallels being started up. >> >> >> George >> >> >>> On Aug 20, 2020, at 10:44 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >>> >>> On Aug 20, 2020, at 5:14 PM, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? >>> >>> Do they have the same CPU?s, and the same version of Parallels? Might be something with the Windows install on the one? >>> >>> Zane >>> >>> >> > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 21 06:16:00 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 04:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: There must be a better resource than this list for something THAT obsolete. On Thu, 20 Aug 2020, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: > I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? From ccth6600 at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 08:24:58 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 21:24:58 +0800 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Fred, I am curious how your batteries are doing in those two MacBook Pros. Are they still original? If yes, is there any swelling noticeable and any weirdness with the touch pad? Thanks Tom Hunter On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 7:16 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > There must be a better resource than this list for something THAT > obsolete. > > On Thu, 20 Aug 2020, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: > > > I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB > hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system > have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. > With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? > > > From george.rachor at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 09:33:02 2020 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 07:33:02 -0700 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Battery was replaced in the 15 inch last year? On original battery in the 17?. George > On Aug 21, 2020, at 6:24 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Fred, > > I am curious how your batteries are doing in those two MacBook Pros. Are > they still original? If yes, is there any swelling noticeable and any > weirdness with the touch pad? > > Thanks > Tom Hunter > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 7:16 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> There must be a better resource than this list for something THAT >> obsolete. >> >> On Thu, 20 Aug 2020, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB >> hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system >> have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. >> With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? >> >> >> From ethan at 757.org Fri Aug 21 10:49:47 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:49:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> <4A70236C-F06A-4A2C-9078-4574FC066413@gmail.com> Message-ID: > NO excessive fan noise. I had the back off while changing disks and > were pretty clean. Yes.. I could add temp monitoring to see if they are > being throttled. Thermal paste can get hard and stop conducting heat. Also, the heatpipes can fail and quit moving the heat from the processor or GPU over to the heat exchanger (the little radiator and fan.) Both will cause CPU to throttle way down. See if it's an issue, if so may need to remove the heatpipe setup or heatsink and respooge it. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From ethan at 757.org Fri Aug 21 10:49:47 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:49:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> <52C61D26-087D-4890-BC99-B579BAF91D5A@avanthar.com> <33627E61-3064-4C5B-90E8-4937A0B89DDF@gmail.com> <4A70236C-F06A-4A2C-9078-4574FC066413@gmail.com> Message-ID: > NO excessive fan noise. I had the back off while changing disks and > were pretty clean. Yes.. I could add temp monitoring to see if they are > being throttled. Thermal paste can get hard and stop conducting heat. Also, the heatpipes can fail and quit moving the heat from the processor or GPU over to the heat exchanger (the little radiator and fan.) Both will cause CPU to throttle way down. See if it's an issue, if so may need to remove the heatpipe setup or heatsink and respooge it. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From mark.tapley at swri.org Fri Aug 21 11:23:28 2020 From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:23:28 +0000 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: My 2011 has a new battery as of this spring. *Everything* worked, including a several-hour battery life, but the swelling of the battery made it hard to click the trackpad. That is indeed worth a check. Tom?s suggestion is a good one. - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell On Aug 21, 2020, at 9:33 AM, George Rachor via cctalk > wrote: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Battery was replaced in the 15 inch last year? On original battery in the 17?. George ... I am curious how your batteries are doing in those two MacBook Pros. Are they still original? If yes, is there any swelling noticeable and any weirdness with the touch pad? Thanks Tom Hunter On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 7:16 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: There must be a better resource than this list for something THAT obsolete. On Thu, 20 Aug 2020, George Rachor via cctalk wrote: I have 2 2010 macbook pro's. Each have 8GB of Ram and both have a 2 TB hybrid seagate hard drives. Running Windows via Parallels. 15 inch system have reasonable perfomance. 17 inch system just crawls running windows. With RAM maxed out what else should I be looking for? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 21 12:49:34 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 10:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: How many here think that 2010 Macbook Pros running Windows are "CLASSIC"? Certainly sympathize with the problems, but if 4MHz processor and bumping the RAM up to 64K doesn't work, then perhaps a "CURRENT MODEL Macintosh" group (there might be some on Facebook) might be a more productive venue for the search? From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Aug 21 13:05:53 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:05:53 -0700 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5CA837FC-F63A-43FC-A48B-C6BE916F1554@avanthar.com> On Aug 21, 2020, at 10:49 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > How many here think that 2010 Macbook Pros running Windows are "CLASSIC"? > > Certainly sympathize with the problems, but if 4MHz processor and bumping the RAM up to 64K doesn't work, then perhaps a "CURRENT MODEL Macintosh" group (there might be some on Facebook) might be a more productive venue for the search? It?s definitely not current, it?s no longer supported by Apple. Plus at 10 years old, by the *ORIGINAL* definition of this group, it?s on topic. I?m mildly amused by how many of us are obviously running this vintage Mac laptop. I don?t know what the options are for MacBook Pro?s, but there is a fascinating Facebook group for the original Mac Pro?s (non-Trashcan, non-current). People are hacking the older Mac Pro?s (esp. 2010?s) to be closer to, or better than the Trashcan. Zane From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Aug 21 17:46:17 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:46:17 -0400 Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/21/20 1:49 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > How many here think that 2010 Macbook Pros running Windows are "CLASSIC"? > > > Certainly sympathize with the problems, but if 4MHz processor and > bumping the RAM up to 64K doesn't work, then perhaps a "CURRENT MODEL > Macintosh" group (there might be some on Facebook) might be a more > productive venue for the search? I have a MacBook. It's at least as old as my UltraSparc. :-) bill From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Aug 22 02:48:30 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 08:48:30 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: 2 2010 macbook pro's --- vast performance differences.... In-Reply-To: References: <6F2596A3-DFD1-4055-B628-B7B4204B9E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01ROQJF9VOBM8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> > > How many here think that 2010 Macbook Pros running Windows are "CLASSIC"? > I think everything is on-topic for "cctalk", isn't it? Unfortunately, the "cctech" moderated view of the list hasn't worked properly since the list server was rebuilt after a crash several years ago so we are all effectively stuck with the "cctalk" view of the list whether we like it or not. This is not so bad though as there has been next to no truly off-topic stuff on "cctalk" for a very long time now. (I hope I haven't jinxed it by saying it out loud though...) > > Certainly sympathize with the problems, but > if 4MHz processor and bumping the RAM up to 64K doesn't work, then perhaps > a "CURRENT MODEL Macintosh" group (there might be some on Facebook) might > be a more productive venue for the search? > I agree it might be a bit borderline for "cctech" but I think it's fine for "cctalk" by definition. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 10:52:19 2020 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:52:19 -0400 Subject: Computer stores Message-ID: 45 yrs. ago last month, mid-July, Dick Heiser started a new industry, the retail computer store. It opened in West L.A. under the name Arrow Head COmputer Company. aka, The Computer Store. This began the direct marketing of microcomputers to hobbyists, later to the masses of the middle class, albeit a small market 45 yrs. ago. Happy computing. Murray ? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 22 11:53:50 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 09:53:50 -0700 Subject: Computer stores In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3858f6ab-3b72-41b4-eae7-a48b1ad99e2c@sydex.com> On 8/22/20 8:52 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > 45 yrs. ago last month, mid-July, Dick Heiser started a new industry, the > retail computer store. It opened in West L.A. under the name Arrow Head > COmputer Company. aka, The Computer Store. This began the direct marketing > of microcomputers to hobbyists, later to the masses of the middle class, > albeit a small market 45 yrs. ago. > > Happy computing. > > Murray ? Does this precede Paul Terrell's Byte Shop #1 in Mountain View, CA? --Chuck From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Aug 22 12:15:20 2020 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:15:20 -0700 Subject: Computer stores In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200822101520.63c2d882@asrock> On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:52:19 -0400 Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > 45 yrs. ago last month, mid-July, Dick Heiser started a new industry, the > retail computer store. It opened in West L.A. under the name Arrow Head > COmputer Company. aka, The Computer Store. This began the direct marketing > of microcomputers to hobbyists, later to the masses of the middle class, > albeit a small market 45 yrs. ago. > > Happy computing. Claiming "First" in computer "anything" is just about always a dangerous thing ;) But for sure, several personal computer stores existed 45 years ago! Personal Computer Corporation (whom Stan Veit wrote created the term "Personal Computer") was formed by Everett Holland on Jan 4, 1976 as an "S" Corp. The business started with a store in Frazier, PA in March of 1976. The first employee (and "tech") was Dave Hilton. I became an "angel" investor about 1977 and ultimately became Ch. of the Bd. of PCC. At our opening we sold Imsai and Digital Group Computers - plus S-100 boards from a number of manufacturers. At the time we opened, there were approximately 15 computer stores in the U.S., mostly in California. In the same year we started (1976), Stan Veit opened the Computer Mart of New York. Cheers, Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sat Aug 22 12:45:15 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 12:45:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Computer stores In-Reply-To: <20200822101520.63c2d882@asrock> References: <20200822101520.63c2d882@asrock> Message-ID: <825838524.2662356.1598118315161@email.ionos.com> > On August 22, 2020 at 12:15 PM Lyle Bickley via cctech wrote: > > On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:52:19 -0400Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > 45 yrs. ago last month, mid-July, Dick Heiser started a new industry, theretail computer store. It opened in West L.A. under the name Arrow HeadCOmputer Company. aka, The Computer Store. This began the direct marketingof microcomputers to hobbyists, later to the masses of the middle class,albeit a small market 45 yrs. ago. > > Happy computing.Claiming "First" in computer "anything" is just about always a dangerous thing;) > But for sure, several personal computer stores existed 45 years ago! > Personal Computer Corporation (whom Stan Veit wrote created the term "PersonalComputer") was formed by Everett Holland on Jan 4, 1976 as an "S" Corp. Thebusiness started with a store in Frazier, PA in March of 1976. The He didn't directly claim first. Just that Heiser started an industry. However, July 75 (45 years ago) is certainly before Terrel's Byte shop (Dec 75 according to Wikipedia) and the March 76 listed above. Will From uban at ubanproductions.com Sat Aug 22 15:02:46 2020 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 15:02:46 -0500 Subject: old data books? Message-ID: <8e1c6c29-31b9-100a-bb1e-908e8ded7ee5@ubanproductions.com> I'm trying to reduce the amount of "stuff" I have and I've been carrying around a significant number of old data books. My plan has always been to have all of the resources I need in my retirement (assuming I get there) to work on and repair the various vintage computing hardware I've also collected over time and have been storing. My question is if I this information is all now available online or if I need to keep these data books. My guess is that it is some of both. Also, if I decide to part with these, should I create a list and make them available for the cost of shipping or just recycle them? Maybe someone collects them? --tom From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 15:33:33 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 16:33:33 -0400 Subject: old data books? In-Reply-To: <8e1c6c29-31b9-100a-bb1e-908e8ded7ee5@ubanproductions.com> References: <8e1c6c29-31b9-100a-bb1e-908e8ded7ee5@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Tom, Generally-speaking what do you have? I keep a paper copy of useful 70's databooks for reference, but I don't have everything so I might be interested if I can fill any gaps. Best Bill Degnan vintagecomputer.net kennettclassic.com On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 4:02 PM Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > I'm trying to reduce the amount of "stuff" I have and I've been carrying > around a significant number > of old data books. My plan has always been to have all of the resources I > need in my retirement > (assuming I get there) to work on and repair the various vintage computing > hardware I've also > collected over time and have been storing. > > My question is if I this information is all now available online or if I > need to keep these data > books. My guess is that it is some of both. > > Also, if I decide to part with these, should I create a list and make them > available for the cost of > shipping or just recycle them? Maybe someone collects them? > > --tom > > From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Aug 22 18:20:23 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 18:20:23 -0500 Subject: old data books? In-Reply-To: <8e1c6c29-31b9-100a-bb1e-908e8ded7ee5@ubanproductions.com> References: <8e1c6c29-31b9-100a-bb1e-908e8ded7ee5@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <5F41A837.2070505@pico-systems.com> On 08/22/2020 03:02 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > I'm trying to reduce the amount of "stuff" I have and I've been carrying around a significant number > of old data books. My plan has always been to have all of the resources I need in my retirement > (assuming I get there) to work on and repair the various vintage computing hardware I've also > collected over time and have been storing. > > My question is if I this information is all now available online or if I need to keep these data > books. My guess is that it is some of both. No, they are NOT all available online. A lot of old stuff is, and that's great, but some really ODD circuits that were used in a limited number of products might not be found online. Which oddball chips are not represented is really hard to say. But, in repairing some old gear at work, I have run across some chips that were ONLY found in my stock of old databooks. That might be less of an issue today than 20 years ago, though. Jon From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Aug 22 23:47:58 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 21:47:58 -0700 Subject: Computer stores In-Reply-To: <3858f6ab-3b72-41b4-eae7-a48b1ad99e2c@sydex.com> References: <3858f6ab-3b72-41b4-eae7-a48b1ad99e2c@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8e4b5691-15de-666f-2d18-d4428bf0a4fb@jwsss.com> On 8/22/2020 9:53 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 8/22/20 8:52 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> 45 yrs. ago last month, mid-July, Dick Heiser started a new industry, the >> retail computer store. It opened in West L.A. under the name Arrow Head >> COmputer Company. aka, The Computer Store. This began the direct marketing >> of microcomputers to hobbyists, later to the masses of the middle class, >> albeit a small market 45 yrs. ago. >> >> Happy computing. >> >> Murray ? > Does this precede Paul Terrell's Byte Shop #1 in Mountain View, CA? > > --Chuck > Not soon after, Dave and Tom Freeman, Advanced Computer Products in Santa Ana, CA. thanks JIm From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 23 00:02:53 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 22:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer stores In-Reply-To: <8e4b5691-15de-666f-2d18-d4428bf0a4fb@jwsss.com> References: <3858f6ab-3b72-41b4-eae7-a48b1ad99e2c@sydex.com> <8e4b5691-15de-666f-2d18-d4428bf0a4fb@jwsss.com> Message-ID: When dozens or hundreds start up within weeks or months of each other, every one is important, and most are interesting, but "FIRST" or "STARTED THE TREND" (implying being the "first") cease to really mean anything. It's generally better to never use the word "FIRST"; there is almost always a lesser known one that was earlier. The trend from being a sideline within a business, to becoming the primary focus of the business can seem anticlimactic, but is what marks the core of the transition. Think of Fry's, NLS, etc. On Sat, 22 Aug 2020, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 8/22/2020 9:53 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 8/22/20 8:52 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >>> 45 yrs. ago last month, mid-July, Dick Heiser started a new industry, the >>> retail computer store. It opened in West L.A. under the name Arrow Head >>> COmputer Company. aka, The Computer Store. This began the direct marketing >>> of microcomputers to hobbyists, later to the masses of the middle class, >>> albeit a small market 45 yrs. ago. >>> >>> Happy computing. >>> >>> Murray ? >> Does this precede Paul Terrell's Byte Shop #1 in Mountain View, CA? >> >> --Chuck >> > Not soon after, Dave and Tom Freeman, Advanced Computer Products in Santa > Ana, CA. > thanks > JIm From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Aug 23 07:35:51 2020 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 14:35:51 +0200 Subject: Dolch (DLI) Logic Analyzer C100 Disassembler Roms? Message-ID: <20200823123551.GA9694@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi guys, I have three Dolch Logic Analyzers, the two bigger ones are Palas Analyzers, one of them with an highspeed option, the third is an Compact 100 Analyzer. For the bigger ones I have Disassemblers for 8080/8085 and Z80 as far as I know. I want to use the C100 with a Z80 disassembler, but the ROM images are different it seems, the roms don't work in the C100. Has anyone the rom images for the C100 Z80 disassembler? Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederran, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From matt at 9track.net Sun Aug 23 08:29:18 2020 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 14:29:18 +0100 Subject: old data books? In-Reply-To: <8e1c6c29-31b9-100a-bb1e-908e8ded7ee5@ubanproductions.com> References: <8e1c6c29-31b9-100a-bb1e-908e8ded7ee5@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <10d5ffdc-fbed-451a-b6f4-d36e7d2816b8@9track.net> On 22/08/2020 21:02, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > My question is if I this information is all now available online or if I need to keep these data > books. My guess is that it is some of both. > You could check what's already available on bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/components/ This is a great resource for complete data books. Matt From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 23 10:33:07 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 08:33:07 -0700 Subject: old data books? In-Reply-To: <10d5ffdc-fbed-451a-b6f4-d36e7d2816b8@9track.net> References: <8e1c6c29-31b9-100a-bb1e-908e8ded7ee5@ubanproductions.com> <10d5ffdc-fbed-451a-b6f4-d36e7d2816b8@9track.net> Message-ID: <5109df0f-fec5-38eb-ffd2-0f69e75c71f4@bitsavers.org> On 8/23/20 6:29 AM, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: > You could check what's already available on bitsavers: I still have a few hundred data books scanned that I haven't converted to pdf yet. The biggest hole in the collection are Japanese parts, especially Fujitsu, before the mid-80's From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Aug 23 13:49:48 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 14:49:48 -0400 Subject: More DECnet/E items In-Reply-To: <2CB116EE-D510-4564-83EB-0CF4872CF103@comcast.net> References: <2CB116EE-D510-4564-83EB-0CF4872CF103@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20C023F1-A770-4E82-B3D7-7BE68D965053@comcast.net> The version of NCP I posted before was incomplete: it handles "show circuit" correctly but fails on "show node". I just posted a new version that fixes this. The version on NI1D:: (in the default account) has also been updated so you can grab it that way if you prefer. paul > On Jun 29, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Following up on my earlier Y2K fixes for DECnet/E, I implemented proper support in EVTLOG and NCP for the undocumented RSTS feature supporting DECnet over terminal lines. You can find it in the same place, specifically the "decnete" subdirectory. The main changes are in the new NCP.TSK; there are also some changes to EVTLOG.TSK to display the events for these circuits correctly. > > Documentation is included in that directory. > > Enjoy, > > paul > > >> On Jun 21, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> I just made some small changes to the DECnet/E event logger application to fix a Y2K problem. (More precisely, a Y2K.003 problem). >> >> https://github.com/pkoning2/decstuff >> >> This is for RSTS V10.1. Just drop the new evtlog.tsk into [0,16]. >> >> paul >> > From john at ziaspace.com Sun Aug 23 14:06:41 2020 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 19:06:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Computer stores Message-ID: > When dozens or hundreds start up within weeks or months of each other, > every one is important, and most are interesting, but "FIRST" or > "STARTED THE TREND" (implying being the "first") cease to really mean > anything. > > It's generally better to never use the word "FIRST"; there is almost > always a lesser known one that was earlier. That might be true for discussions where people don't care to do any research, or where words like "first" are uses more for hyperbolic emphasis, but suggesting someone started an industry on a list like this, I think, doesn't seem out of place. If someone has examples of this being wrong, he / she will say so, and we'll all learn. If not, the original message has conveyed useful information. Relatedly, I have what I think is the only 1U VAX in the world. I've mentioned this in many places, but if someone says I'm wrong and shows me an example of another, it would please me, not upset me. I'll have learned of another :) John From sieler at allegro.com Sun Aug 23 16:46:47 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 14:46:47 -0700 Subject: Burroughs 1975 Annual Report Message-ID: Hi, Anyone want a Burroughs 1975 Annual Report? (Free mailing to U.S. address, otherwise PayPal the cost of mailing.) Nice condition. 44 pages. thanks, Stan From wayne.smith at charter.net Sun Aug 23 17:31:18 2020 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 15:31:18 -0700 Subject: Computer Stores Message-ID: <005c01d6799d$1f5dddc0$5e199940$@charter.net> The LA Times called it the first computer store in a story in December 1975. The first ad for the store ran in July of that year. I've put scans of the article and the ad here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/S53vBGs6irzqoLR37 > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 22:02:53 -0700 (PDT) > From: Fred Cisin > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Computer stores > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > When dozens or hundreds start up within weeks or months of each > other, > every one is important, and most are interesting, but "FIRST" or > "STARTED > THE TREND" (implying being the "first") cease to really mean anything. > > It's generally better to never use the word "FIRST"; there is almost > always a lesser known one that was earlier. > > The trend from being a sideline within a business, to becoming the > primary focus of the business can seem anticlimactic, but is what marks > the core of the transition. > Think of Fry's, NLS, etc. > > > On Sat, 22 Aug 2020, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > On 8/22/2020 9:53 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> On 8/22/20 8:52 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > >>> 45 yrs. ago last month, mid-July, Dick Heiser started a new > industry, the > >>> retail computer store. It opened in West L.A. under the name > Arrow Head > >>> COmputer Company. aka, The Computer Store. This began the > direct marketing > >>> of microcomputers to hobbyists, later to the masses of the middle > class, > >>> albeit a small market 45 yrs. ago. > >>> > >>> Happy computing. > >>> > >>> Murray ? > >> Does this precede Paul Terrell's Byte Shop #1 in Mountain View, > CA? > >> > >> --Chuck > >> > > Not soon after, Dave and Tom Freeman, Advanced Computer > Products in Santa > > Ana, CA. > > thanks > > JIm > From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Aug 23 23:34:57 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 06:34:57 +0200 Subject: 1U VAX, was: Re: Computer stores In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5d9842ce-557a-161d-b4fe-225e931024f5@e-bbes.com> On 2020-08-23 21:06, John Klos via cctalk wrote: > Relatedly, I have what I think is the only 1U VAX in the world. I've > mentioned this in many places, but if someone says I'm wrong and shows > me an example of another, it would please me, not upset me. I'll have > learned of another :) OK, I'll bite ;-) What is it exactly? There was a rtVAX on VME, which could be easily configured as 1U, but what do you have? From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Aug 24 02:16:53 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 07:16:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Burroughs 1975 Annual Report References: <1763038945.4817700.1598253413088.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1763038945.4817700.1598253413088@mail.yahoo.com> Sure,Stan can add to our Burroughs? collection Ed! On Sunday, August 23, 2020 Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: Hi, Anyone want a Burroughs 1975 Annual Report? (Free mailing to U.S. address, otherwise PayPal the cost of mailing.) Nice condition.? 44 pages. thanks, Stan From sieler at allegro.com Mon Aug 24 13:54:04 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 11:54:04 -0700 Subject: Burroughs 1975 Annual Report Message-ID: Ed asks: Sure,Stan can add to our Burroughs? collection Ed! Ok, it's yours. Email me your snail mail address please (sieler at allegro.com ). And, I'll scan it first, per some offline requests (I knew I should have already done that :) Stan From john at ziaspace.com Mon Aug 24 09:06:42 2020 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 14:06:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: 1U VAX, was: Re: Computer stores In-Reply-To: <5d9842ce-557a-161d-b4fe-225e931024f5@e-bbes.com> References: <5d9842ce-557a-161d-b4fe-225e931024f5@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > OK, I'll bite ;-) > What is it exactly? > There was a rtVAX on VME, which could be easily configured as 1U, but > what do you have? https://twitter.com/AnachronistJohn/status/1291815674570891264 It's a VAXstation 4000/30 (also known as VLC) with a 500 gig SATA drive in a 1U case. It's colocated in a proper datacenter right now :D John From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Aug 24 15:34:11 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 13:34:11 -0700 Subject: 1U VAX, was: Re: Computer stores In-Reply-To: References: <5d9842ce-557a-161d-b4fe-225e931024f5@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <8A40C87D-09C1-43B1-BA1B-F9A1DA982EF6@avanthar.com> On Aug 24, 2020, at 7:06 AM, John Klos via cctalk wrote: > >> OK, I'll bite ;-) >> What is it exactly? >> There was a rtVAX on VME, which could be easily configured as 1U, but >> what do you have? > > https://twitter.com/AnachronistJohn/status/1291815674570891264 > > It's a VAXstation 4000/30 (also known as VLC) with a 500 gig SATA drive in a 1U case. It's colocated in a proper datacenter right now :D > > John I was going to comment that the only way I could see a 1U VAX was if someone rack mounted a 4000/VLC. Is that the stock VLC power supply? My cluster doesn?t even have that much space. Zane From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 24 16:21:45 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 22:21:45 +0100 Subject: 1U VAX, was: Re: Computer stores In-Reply-To: <8A40C87D-09C1-43B1-BA1B-F9A1DA982EF6@avanthar.com> References: <5d9842ce-557a-161d-b4fe-225e931024f5@e-bbes.com> <8A40C87D-09C1-43B1-BA1B-F9A1DA982EF6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <4478aaca-aaa7-e765-e11b-0c653c05590d@ntlworld.com> On 24/08/2020 21:34, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Aug 24, 2020, at 7:06 AM, John Klos via cctalk wrote: >>> OK, I'll bite ;-) >>> What is it exactly? >>> There was a rtVAX on VME, which could be easily configured as 1U, but >>> what do you have? >> https://twitter.com/AnachronistJohn/status/1291815674570891264 >> >> It's a VAXstation 4000/30 (also known as VLC) with a 500 gig SATA drive in a 1U case. It's colocated in a proper datacenter right now :D >> >> John > I was going to comment that the only way I could see a 1U VAX was if someone rack mounted a 4000/VLC. Is that the stock VLC power supply? My cluster doesn?t even have that much space. > > Zane > > What do you use to go from SATA to SCSI (SCSI-1 even)? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From marvin at west.net Mon Aug 24 17:37:02 2020 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 15:37:02 -0700 Subject: Early Computer Storefront Photos Message-ID: <04ea3733-fd90-6a3f-6251-46f8baa5cf9a@west.net> I sent an email to Al asking if he wanted them, and no response which I took to mean no :). There are about 40 photos of the fronts of computer stores circa 1977-1978, and were taken by a friend of mine who was a computer salesman at the time. Most (all) are date stamped and have the store location written on the back. None for Santa Barbara :), so I'll pass them along to whoever wants them. And Al still has first shot at them if he missed my original email. $1000 with free postage, or free if you pay postage :). Priority mail should run about $8.00. From marvin at west.net Mon Aug 24 18:28:08 2020 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 16:28:08 -0700 Subject: Early Computer Storefront Photos Message-ID: <17a8d08b-55ad-de27-44c7-9e23b134caef@west.net> Spoken for. > I sent an email to Al asking if he wanted them, and no response which I took to mean no :). > > There are about 40 photos of the fronts of computer stores circa 1977-1978, and were taken by a friend of mine who was a computer salesman at the time. Most (all) are date stamped and have the store location written on the back. > > None for Santa Barbara :), so I'll pass them along to whoever wants them. And Al still has first shot at them if he missed my original email. > > $1000 with free postage, or free if you pay postage :). Priority mail should run about $8.00. From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Aug 24 20:34:56 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 01:34:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Early Computer Storefront Photos References: <37615001.5193494.1598319296231.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <37615001.5193494.1598319296231@mail.yahoo.com> We would live this photos. Force archive here.? Your? pay pal. Address For postage costs? please? Thanks Ed Sharpe Archivist? for SMECC museum project On Monday, August 24, 2020 Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: ? Spoken for. > I sent an email to Al asking if he wanted them, and no response which I took to mean no :). > > There are about 40 photos of the fronts of computer stores circa 1977-1978, and were taken by a friend of mine who was a computer salesman at the time. Most (all) are date stamped and have the store location written on the back. > > None for Santa Barbara :), so I'll pass them along to whoever wants them. And Al still has first shot at them if he missed my original email. > > $1000 with free postage, or free if you pay postage :). Priority mail should run about $8.00. From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Aug 24 23:53:35 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 04:53:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Early Computer Storefront Photos In-Reply-To: <37615001.5193494.1598319296231@mail.yahoo.com> References: <37615001.5193494.1598319296231.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <37615001.5193494.1598319296231@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1604186648.5233891.1598331215339@mail.yahoo.com> ok? if? these? get? scanned? and? posted? somewhere? please let? us? know?Ed?In a message dated 8/24/2020 6:35:05 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? ?We would live this photos. Force archive here.? Your? pay pal. Address For postage costs? please? Thanks Ed Sharpe Archivist? for SMECC museum project ?On Monday, August 24, 2020 Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote:?? Spoken for.?> I sent an email to Al asking if he wanted them, and no response which I took to mean no :).> > There are about 40 photos of the fronts of computer stores circa 1977-1978, and were taken by a friend of mine who was a computer salesman at the time. Most (all) are date stamped and have the store location written on the back.> > None for Santa Barbara :), so I'll pass them along to whoever wants them. And Al still has first shot at them if he missed my original email.> > $1000 with free postage, or free if you pay postage :). Priority mail should run about $8.00. From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Aug 24 23:55:08 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 04:55:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Early Computer Storefront Photos In-Reply-To: <37615001.5193494.1598319296231@mail.yahoo.com> References: <37615001.5193494.1598319296231.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <37615001.5193494.1598319296231@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2138733919.5235567.1598331308604@mail.yahoo.com> arr... pardon? cell phone? typing? ? i? could? not? see screen? well...ed?In a message dated 8/24/2020 6:35:05 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? ?We would live this photos. Force archive here.? Your? pay pal. Address For postage costs? please? Thanks Ed Sharpe Archivist? for SMECC museum project ?On Monday, August 24, 2020 Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote:?? Spoken for.?> I sent an email to Al asking if he wanted them, and no response which I took to mean no :).> > There are about 40 photos of the fronts of computer stores circa 1977-1978, and were taken by a friend of mine who was a computer salesman at the time. Most (all) are date stamped and have the store location written on the back.> > None for Santa Barbara :), so I'll pass them along to whoever wants them. And Al still has first shot at them if he missed my original email.> > $1000 with free postage, or free if you pay postage :). Priority mail should run about $8.00. From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Aug 24 23:58:58 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 06:58:58 +0200 Subject: 1U VAX, was: Re: Computer stores In-Reply-To: References: <5d9842ce-557a-161d-b4fe-225e931024f5@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <264c0e54-c2aa-d40b-a631-6af63cbfbd45@e-bbes.com> On 2020-08-24 16:06, John Klos via cctalk wrote: >> OK, I'll bite ;-) >> What is it exactly? >> There was a rtVAX on VME, which could be easily configured as 1U, but >> what do you have? > > https://twitter.com/AnachronistJohn/status/1291815674570891264 > > It's a VAXstation 4000/30 (also known as VLC) with a 500 gig SATA drive > in a 1U case. It's colocated in a proper datacenter right now :D Interesting, I have (after moving) some VLCs with broken fronts, so his would be nice to pu them in a rack ;-) From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Aug 25 00:01:38 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 07:01:38 +0200 Subject: 1U VAX, was: Re: Computer stores In-Reply-To: <4478aaca-aaa7-e765-e11b-0c653c05590d@ntlworld.com> References: <5d9842ce-557a-161d-b4fe-225e931024f5@e-bbes.com> <8A40C87D-09C1-43B1-BA1B-F9A1DA982EF6@avanthar.com> <4478aaca-aaa7-e765-e11b-0c653c05590d@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0c9a07c3-8b38-2796-9474-5fe395d510f9@e-bbes.com> On 2020-08-24 23:21, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 24/08/2020 21:34, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> On Aug 24, 2020, at 7:06 AM, John Klos via cctalk >> wrote: >>>> OK, I'll bite ;-) >>>> What is it exactly? >>>> There was a rtVAX on VME, which could be easily configured as 1U, but >>>> what do you have? >>> https://twitter.com/AnachronistJohn/status/1291815674570891264 >>> >>> It's a VAXstation 4000/30 (also known as VLC) with a 500 gig SATA >>> drive in a 1U case. It's colocated in a proper datacenter right now :D >>> >>> John >> I was going to comment that the only way I could see a 1U VAX was if >> someone rack mounted a 4000/VLC.? Is that the stock VLC power supply?? >> My cluster doesn?t even have that much space. >> >> Zane >> >> > What do you use to go from SATA to SCSI (SCSI-1 even)? I (not John ;-) ) switched on my 4000s to the SCSI2SD, and I'm pretty happy with them. 6 partitions on one SD, and works nicely ... From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 25 11:48:30 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 17:48:30 +0100 Subject: VAXcluster: booting a satellite node In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm trying to set up a VMS cluster and obviously I've forgotten something since I last did this (which was maybe 15 years ago!). My boot server (CLU071) is SIMH on Windows. It's the MicroVAX 3900. I've installed VMS V7.1, DECnet Phase IV and UCX. My satellite is a VAXstation 4000 Model 60 (VS4060). It boots perfectly happily from a physical disk. On CLU071 I ran @CLUSTER_CONFIG and made it a boot server. It took a few reboots to get everything set up, and then I did the same to tell it to prepare a root ([SYS10]) for VS4060. Now when I do B ESA0 on the VAXstation (VS4060) it says: %VAXcluster, system loaded ... %VAXcluster, unable to locate BOOT file and on CLU071 I get: $ %%%%%%%%%%%? OPCOM? 25-AUG-2020 17:05:32.18? %%%%%%%%%%% Message from user DECNET on CLU071 DECnet event 0.3, automatic line service From node 1.51 (CLU071), 25-AUG-2020 17:05:32.18 Circuit QNA-0, Load, Requested, Node = 1.52 (VS4060) File = DISK$OPENVMS071:, Operating system Ethernet address = 08-00-2B-2E-19-6C It does look like it's all set up properly: Directory DUA0:[SYS10.SYSCOMMON.SYSEXE] SYSBOOT.EXE;1??????? (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE) SYSBOOT_XDELTA.EXE;1 ???????????????????? (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE) I did undo all of this using CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM and had another go with CLUSTER_CONFIG_LAN.COM, but that doesn't load either. It fails to load NISCS_LOAD.EXE. I know people on this list have done this successfully, so rather than continuing to stumble, I think I might as well just ask :-) Thanks Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From john at ziaspace.com Tue Aug 25 13:46:21 2020 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 18:46:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: 1U VAX, was: Re: Computer stores Message-ID: > I was going to comment that the only way I could see a 1U VAX was if > someone rack mounted a 4000/VLC. Is that the stock VLC power supply? > My cluster doesn?t even have that much space. > > What do you use to go from SATA to SCSI (SCSI-1 even)? It's a standard 1U power supply with a custom adapter. You can see it better here: https://twitter.com/AnachronistJohn/status/1294725819038752768 I use a SATA to IDE adapter, then an IDE to UW-SCSI adapter, then an UW-SCSI cable and terminator, then finally a 68 to 50 pin adapter. The previous drive was a Samsung SSD, but I think that constant, non-stop swap use wore it out. This was the smallest new spinning rust drive I could find. SCSI2SD would work for a while, but, again, swap usage would wear out an SD card in no time, I'm sure. John From john at ziaspace.com Tue Aug 25 13:49:52 2020 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 18:49:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Diskless VMS install Message-ID: Hi, I have a VAXstation 4000/60 with an internal disk but no CD drive. I'd like to install VMS (7.3), but I'm new to VMS. I have a SIMH VAX instance running on the same LAN with VMS installed (mounting the VMS images is easy, of course). Can anyone point me to a HOW-TO which explains how to use one VMS system to MOP / netboot another system to install VMS? Thanks, John From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Aug 25 14:30:48 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:30:48 -0700 Subject: 1U VAX, was: Re: Computer stores In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6428F75C-7ECE-4EA0-A209-1730C88C8538@avanthar.com> On Aug 25, 2020, at 11:46 AM, John Klos via cctalk wrote: > >> I was going to comment that the only way I could see a 1U VAX was if someone rack mounted a 4000/VLC. Is that the stock VLC power supply? My cluster doesn?t even have that much space. >> >> What do you use to go from SATA to SCSI (SCSI-1 even)? > > It's a standard 1U power supply with a custom adapter. You can see it better here: > > https://twitter.com/AnachronistJohn/status/1294725819038752768 > > I use a SATA to IDE adapter, then an IDE to UW-SCSI adapter, then an UW-SCSI cable and terminator, then finally a 68 to 50 pin adapter. > > The previous drive was a Samsung SSD, but I think that constant, non-stop swap use wore it out. This was the smallest new spinning rust drive I could find. > > SCSI2SD would work for a while, but, again, swap usage would wear out an SD card in no time, I'm sure. > > John Thanks! That is good to know, as the power supply in my VLC has issues. As it stands, the VLC was replaced with a VAXstation 4000/60 a friend gave me. I?m still using DEC drives in a BA350 (originally a DEC BA353). At some point, I should simply move it to a VM, as I?ve done with the rest of my DEC systems. I?d like to convert either the VAXstation 4000/vlc or the 4000/60 back to being a desktop. Right now the 4000/60 is mounted in a rack, and is my DECnet Area Router. Zane From abs at absd.org Tue Aug 25 15:00:49 2020 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 21:00:49 +0100 Subject: 1U VAX, was: Re: Computer stores In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 19:46, John Klos via cctalk wrote: > > > I was going to comment that the only way I could see a 1U VAX was if > > someone rack mounted a 4000/VLC. Is that the stock VLC power supply? > > My cluster doesn?t even have that much space. > > > > What do you use to go from SATA to SCSI (SCSI-1 even)? > > It's a standard 1U power supply with a custom adapter. You can see it > better here: > > https://twitter.com/AnachronistJohn/status/1294725819038752768 > > I use a SATA to IDE adapter, then an IDE to UW-SCSI adapter, then an > UW-SCSI cable and terminator, then finally a 68 to 50 pin adapter. > > The previous drive was a Samsung SSD, but I think that constant, non-stop > swap use wore it out. This was the smallest new spinning rust drive I > could find. > > SCSI2SD would work for a while, but, again, swap usage would wear out an > SD card in no time, I'm sure. Wow, I'm surprised the VLC could generate enough traffic to wear out an SSD - compared to a modern box running heavy compiles and suchlike. Very cool box :) Thinking about SCSI devices for my collection of older boxes - I wonder if rascsi set to use the pi's RAM rather than an SD card to provide a swap device would work out. Actually, could be interesting to run a modern *nix box with the right type of scsi adapter in target mode and have it "export" devices and or ramdrives to older boxes... David From 821 at 128.ca Tue Aug 25 15:15:34 2020 From: 821 at 128.ca (821 at 128.ca) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 22:15:34 +0200 Subject: Off topic ? Message-ID: <8C54F0BA-390C-4B4E-9F11-55BD1D8A17B9@128.ca> I have a Mac mini os-x 10.15/16 11. I?m Really trying to find a working Iscsi Initiator Software. Yeah looked at atto 200 bucks GlobalSan broken. Who is using their Mac with an iScsi drive Attached storage ? Help appreciated. K. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Aug 25 15:36:33 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:36:33 -0400 Subject: Off topic ? In-Reply-To: <8C54F0BA-390C-4B4E-9F11-55BD1D8A17B9@128.ca> References: <8C54F0BA-390C-4B4E-9F11-55BD1D8A17B9@128.ca> Message-ID: Not sure if this is off topic, but anyway.. I used Atto years ago, haven't in a long time. Don't remember GlobalSAN. There was also one with "tree" in its name, don't remember its full name and I think they shut down. The odd thing is that Apple doesn't have one of its own. Way back around 2005 or so they were planning to; I may even have seen a beta of it but that may be a bad memory. But nothing actually shipped. Some searches turned up a few bits of info. One is an open initiator on Github, and a note about it on a list that says turning it on requires disabling some security mechanisms because it's not signed. Perhaps you have the ability to sign your own copy to avoid that. Another is a product called KernSafe that says it has a free Mac OS iSCSI initiator (they also sell a target). I know nothing about it, never tried it. Finally, I found an announcement from GlobalSAN saying they now have Catalina support. So perhaps "broken" has been fixed. paul > On Aug 25, 2020, at 4:15 PM, 821--- via cctalk wrote: > > I have a Mac mini os-x 10.15/16 11. > > I?m Really trying to find a working Iscsi Initiator > Software. Yeah looked at atto 200 bucks > GlobalSan broken. > > Who is using their Mac with an iScsi drive > Attached storage ? > > Help appreciated. > > K. From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Aug 25 16:07:57 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:07:57 -0500 Subject: 1U VAX, was: Re: Computer stores In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5370ab1a-a566-49ab-1387-9fe89ea55a17@thereinhardts.org> On 8/25/2020 3:00 PM, David Brownlee via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 19:46, John Klos via cctalk > wrote: >>> I was going to comment that the only way I could see a 1U VAX was if >>> someone rack mounted a 4000/VLC. Is that the stock VLC power supply? >>> My cluster doesn?t even have that much space. >>> >>> What do you use to go from SATA to SCSI (SCSI-1 even)? >> It's a standard 1U power supply with a custom adapter. You can see it >> better here: >> >> https://twitter.com/AnachronistJohn/status/1294725819038752768 >> >> I use a SATA to IDE adapter, then an IDE to UW-SCSI adapter, then an >> UW-SCSI cable and terminator, then finally a 68 to 50 pin adapter. >> >> The previous drive was a Samsung SSD, but I think that constant, non-stop >> swap use wore it out. This was the smallest new spinning rust drive I >> could find. >> >> SCSI2SD would work for a while, but, again, swap usage would wear out an >> SD card in no time, I'm sure. > Wow, I'm surprised the VLC could generate enough traffic to wear out > an SSD - compared to a modern box running heavy compiles and suchlike. > > Very cool box :) > > Thinking about SCSI devices for my collection of older boxes - I > wonder if rascsi set to use the pi's RAM rather than an SD card to > provide a swap device would work out. > Actually, could be interesting to run a modern *nix box with the right > type of scsi adapter in target mode and have it "export" devices and > or ramdrives to older boxes... > > David Make sure you use a higher quality SD card.? Something labeled "High Endurance" or "Industrial".? They have internal wear leveling firmware to spread the writes/erases out over the memory array and help keep it from getting any hot spots that wear out quickly.? It won't last forever but it will help it last longer. Examples: High Endurance: Industrial: It may seem wasteful, but if planning on long life for an SD card that is the O/S drive then get something big and only use a portion of it so that the wear leveling can work with more.? So if you want a 16GB disk, then get a 32GB or even 64GB SD card and use SCSI2SD's internal partitioning to only use 1/2 or 1/4 of the full drive. That's my theory anyway.? I'll let you know in a year or three if it worked. I have SCSI2SD in two AlphaServer DS10's, a MicroVAX 3100 and a PDP-11.? I also use the same theory in a couple Raspberry Pi's.? The Pi's use log2ram for the /var/log files to help also. They don't actually swap much. -- John H. Reinhardt From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 16:42:07 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 14:42:07 -0700 Subject: Diskless VMS install In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:50 AM John Klos via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > I have a VAXstation 4000/60 with an internal disk but no CD drive. I'd > like to install VMS (7.3), but I'm new to VMS. > > I have a SIMH VAX instance running on the same LAN with VMS installed > (mounting the VMS images is easy, of course). Can anyone point me to a > HOW-TO which explains how to use one VMS system to MOP / netboot another > system to install VMS? > As far as I can remember the standard VMS installation over the network mechanism assumes you are booting from and installing from an InfoServer, not another system running VMS. Although for Alpha VMS systems there is also an InfoServer utility you can run that can take the place of a dedicated InfoServer. As far as I can remember the InfoServer utility is not available on VAX systems, only the InfoServer client is available. If you are already set up to use SIMH, you could use the InfoServer support in SIMH instead of the regular VAX support, InfoServer100, InfoServer150VXT, or InfoServer1000. I have InfoServer 100, 150VXT, and 1000 physical hardware that I have set up and used in the past for network installations of VMS. The standard OpenVMS VAX 7.3 installation CD should have an InfoServer script file somewhere on it that will take care of automatically sharing the installation volume and ISL boot file (ISL_SVAX_073) when the CD is inserted. On the VAX where the installation is taking place the OpenVMS 7.3 installation manual has a section on booting from and installing from an InfoServer. There is probably already an How-To out there somewhere on setting up and using a SIMH InfoServer. I'll have to take a look around and see what I can find. Or also spend some time seeing what it takes to get a SIMH InfoServer set up again myself and make some notes along the way. From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Aug 25 17:15:18 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 17:15:18 -0500 Subject: Diskless VMS install In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02d630c2-cd9c-a1d6-cb3e-86635793182b@thereinhardts.org> On 8/25/2020 4:42 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:50 AM John Klos via cctalk > wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I have a VAXstation 4000/60 with an internal disk but no CD drive. I'd >> like to install VMS (7.3), but I'm new to VMS. >> >> I have a SIMH VAX instance running on the same LAN with VMS installed >> (mounting the VMS images is easy, of course). Can anyone point me to a >> HOW-TO which explains how to use one VMS system to MOP / netboot another >> system to install VMS? >> > As far as I can remember the standard VMS installation over the > network mechanism assumes you are booting from and installing from an > InfoServer, not another system running VMS. Although for Alpha VMS > > > There is probably already an How-To out there somewhere on setting up > and using a SIMH InfoServer. I'll have to take a look around and see > what I can find. Or also spend some time seeing what it takes to get a > SIMH InfoServer set up again myself and make some notes along the way. From the guy that wrote the Infoserver stuff for SimH ? "InfoServer Software on Simh" InfoServer software: SimH: Booting from InfoServer:? OpenVMS VAX V7.3 Upgrade and Installation Manual ?Sec 3.1.2 - Booting from Infoserver A quick Google search didn't find any How to on using an Infoserver but the pieces are there in the V7.3 Install manual.? Matt Burke's page on setting up the Infoserver software in Simh worked for me a few months ago.? If you have questions on anything that' snot clear, then ask. -- John H. Reinhardt From chrise at pobox.com Tue Aug 25 19:32:28 2020 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 19:32:28 -0500 Subject: Off topic ? In-Reply-To: References: <8C54F0BA-390C-4B4E-9F11-55BD1D8A17B9@128.ca> Message-ID: <20200826003228.GF4941@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (08/25/2020 at 04:36PM -0400), Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Not sure if this is off topic, but anyway.. > > There was also one with "tree" in its name, don't remember its full name and I think they shut down. Smalltree? They are some former SGI guys here in MN, https://small-tree.com/about-us/ -- Chris Elmquist From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 20:26:45 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 18:26:45 -0700 Subject: Diskless VMS install In-Reply-To: <02d630c2-cd9c-a1d6-cb3e-86635793182b@thereinhardts.org> References: <02d630c2-cd9c-a1d6-cb3e-86635793182b@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 3:15 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > > From the guy that wrote the Infoserver stuff for SimH > > "InfoServer Software on Simh" > > InfoServer software: > That is a nice How-To on setting up an SIMH InfoServer 150. One step that is missing is adding the Disk Function. That might be necessary to be able to share the OpenVMS 7.3 installation CD image from the InfoServer. >From the Freeware infoserver.zip file: InfoServer 100/150 Disk Function (Open Access) ag-pjxka-re.img sim> SHOW RZ RZ 7 units RZ1 209MB, attached to infoserver.rz24, RZ24, autosize, RAW format RZ2 50MB, attached to ag-r7lfa-bs.img, read only, RZ24, autosize, RAW format sim> DETACH RZ2 sim> ATTACH RZ2 ag-pjxka-re.img RZ2: unit is read only RZ2: 'ag-pjxka-re.img' Contains ODS2 File system RZ2: Volume Name: BLANK Format: DECFILE11B Sectors In Volume: 400176 sim> BOOT CPU KA41-2 V1.0 F_..E...D...C?..B?..A...9_..8?..7...6...5?..4_..3_..2_..1?.. ?? C 0080 0000.0004 ?? B 0010 0010.0020 ?? 8 0060 0000.0002 ? 6 80A1 0000.4001 ?? 5 0001 0000.000A ?? 1 00C0 0000.100C >>> BOOT DKA100 -DKA100 InfoServer 150 V3.5 Copyright (c) 1990 - 1997 Digital Equipment Corporation %ESS-I-CONFIGDEV, Device configuration complete. 2 devices found %ESS-I-VERIFY, Verifying DK1: Enter Password: Digital Equipment Corporation InfoServer 150 V3.5 InfoServer> SHOW FUNCTIONS * Function Information for InfoServer V3.5 * InfoServer Functions Installed: Other Functions Available: ------------------------------- -------------------------- X-terminal services Open disk access (any client) Open tape access (any client) CD-R functions Additional functions from the 'Other Functions Available' list can be installed from Function-CDROMs available from Digital. Contact your Digital representative to purchase additional functions. InfoServer> UPDATE FUNCTIONS DK2: %ESS-I-DEFAULT, Defaulting to DK1: %ESS-I-UPDATE, Update request completed successfully. InfoServer> SHOW FUNCTIONS * Function Information for InfoServer V3.5 * InfoServer Functions Installed: Other Functions Available: ------------------------------- -------------------------- X-terminal services Open tape access (any client) Open disk access (any client) CD-R functions Additional functions from the 'Other Functions Available' list can be installed from Function-CDROMs available from Digital. Contact your Digital representative to purchase additional functions. InfoServer> From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 21:23:24 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 19:23:24 -0700 Subject: Diskless VMS install In-Reply-To: References: <02d630c2-cd9c-a1d6-cb3e-86635793182b@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: One last note for now: If you get the SIMH InfoServer set up and then boot it with the OpenVMS VAX 7.3 installation CD image attached, the InfoServer should automount the installation CD and create a disk service to access the CD over the network. It should also execute the ISL_SCRIPT.ESS script in the root directory of the CD, which will create MOP services for the ISL_SVAX_073 and ISL_LVAX_073 initial bootstrap loader files. Assuming that you also have the network set up properly in SIMH so that the SIMH InfoServer can access the physical network of the host system and is reachable across the physical network from the physical VAX, you should then be able to follow the OpenVMS 7.3 installation manual sections on booting from and installing from an InfoServer. sim> SHOW RZ RZ 7 units RZ1 209MB, attached to infoserver.rz24, RZ24, autosize, RAW format RZ2 50MB, attached to ag-r7lfa-bs.img, read only, RZ24, autosize, RAW format sim> DETACH RZ2 sim> ATTACH RZ2 VAXVMS073.ISO RZ2: unit is read only RZ2: 'VAXVMS073.ISO' Contains ODS2 File system RZ2: Volume Name: VAXVMS073 Format: DECFILE11B Sectors In Volume: 1331200 sim> BOOT CPU KA41-2 V1.0 F_..E...D...C?..B?..A...9_..8?..7...6...5?..4_..3_..2_..1?.. ?? C 0080 0000.0004 ?? B 0010 0010.0020 ?? 8 0060 0000.0002 ? 6 80A1 0000.4001 ?? 5 0001 0000.000A ?? 1 00C0 0000.1004 >>> BOOT DKA100 -DKA100 InfoServer 150 V3.5 Copyright (c) 1990 - 1997 Digital Equipment Corporation %ESS-I-CONFIGDEV, Device configuration complete. 2 devices found %ESS-I-VERIFY, Verifying DK1: Enter Password: Digital Equipment Corporation InfoServer 150 V3.5 InfoServer> SHOW DEV Device Device Device Device Dev. Size/ Volume Device Name State Type Address Record Num. Label Char DK1: On Hard Disk A/1 409791 UNKNOWN AMD DK2: On Hard Disk A/2 1331808 VAXVMS073 AME InfoServer> SHOW PARTITION DK1: Directory DK1: Partition Name Used/Alloc Services -------------------- ----------------- -------------------- BOOT_PARTITION 5000/5008 IS_FUNCTIONS 1/64 ISL_SVAX_073 154/160 Temp MOP ISL_LVAX_073 176/176 Temp MOP DK1: has 4 partitions in use. 5408 of 409791 blocks allocated. Largest contiguous free extent is 402672 blocks. InfoServer> SHOW SERVICES Service Name Service Class Disk:Partition -------------------- --------------- ---------------------- VAXVMS073 [ODS_2] DK2: InfoServer> From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Tue Aug 25 21:30:09 2020 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 19:30:09 -0700 Subject: Computer stores In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/22/20 8:52 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > 45 yrs. ago last month, mid-July, Dick Heiser started a new industry, > the retail computer store. It opened in West L.A. under the name > Arrow Head Computer Company. aka, The Computer Store. This began the > direct marketing of microcomputers to hobbyists, later to the masses > of the middle class. Slight correction: The name was Arrowhead (one word, not two) Computer Company. I remember this very well. I was living in Santa Monica at the time, and drove down Pico Boulevard almost every day. Needless to say, I immediately noticed the "Computer Store" sign and stopped in, soon becoming one of the regular "hangers on". Dick Heiser and his wife Lois were taking a big chance, but it proved to be a good bet. Initially, their business consisted of buying Altair 8800 kits and assembling them in the back of the store. A lot of people were happy to pay extra to not have to solder all those hundreds of connections. Dick was a regular fixture at meetings of the Southern California Computer Society (SCCS), often making deliveries and taking orders there. In those days, SCCS monthly meetings were *the* place for computer geeks to get together and exchange news and get help. A few months later, two guys named Steve showed up at a meeting with a kit they called the "Apple I", for the grand price of $666.66. I wish I had had the foresight to buy one! Instead, I wound up joining the SCCS group purchase of DEC LSI-11 systems. I still have that system, with a case and power supply from a TRW surplus sale. It isn't worth nearly as much as an original Apple I, though! :-) Alan "Hindsight is 20-20" Frisbie From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 25 21:51:08 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 19:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer stores In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Aug 2020, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > Dick was a regular fixture at meetings of the Southern California > Computer Society (SCCS), often making deliveries and taking orders > there. In those days, SCCS monthly meetings were *the* place for > computer geeks to get together and exchange news and get help. > > A few months later, two guys named Steve showed up at a meeting > with a kit they called the "Apple I", for the grand price of > $666.66. I wish I had had the foresight to buy one! Instead, > I wound up joining the SCCS group purchase of DEC LSI-11 systems. > I still have that system, with a case and power supply from a > TRW surplus sale. It isn't worth nearly as much as an original > Apple I, though! :-) "Worth"?? Value can be more than what price they currently sell for. Q: although WE call it "Apple I", did the Steves call it "Apple I" or "Apple Computer"? The answer tells us whether they were explicitly planning on making other models later! Wikipedia (a terrible choice of citation in anything DISPUTED) says that the '1' came later, and says that the first demonstration was by Woz at the Palo Alto Homebrew Computer Club. (Started by Gordon French and Fred Moore, with Lee Felsenstein soon after) For example, what we call "TRS80 Model 1" was NOT called "Model 1" until the "Model 2" (and then 3) was announced What we call "World War 1" was not called "1", nor even "World War", until "World War 2" was obvious. What we call "single density" was not called "single density" until MFM was developed, and the MARKETING people called MFM "double density". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hagstrom at bu.edu Tue Aug 25 23:27:54 2020 From: hagstrom at bu.edu (Hagstrom, Paul) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 04:27:54 +0000 Subject: Computer stores In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14ACF883-0ED1-4C22-91AA-4D0177D3764C@bu.edu> Kind of hopping in in the middle of an ongoing discussion that I haven't been following, but: > On Aug 25, 2020, at 10:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Q: although WE call it "Apple I", did the Steves call it "Apple I" or "Apple Computer"? > The answer tells us whether they were explicitly planning on making other models later! > Wikipedia (a terrible choice of citation in anything DISPUTED) says that the '1' came later, and says that the first demonstration was by Woz at the Palo Alto Homebrew Computer Club. (Started by Gordon French and Fred Moore, with Lee Felsenstein soon after) > > > For example, what we call "TRS80 Model 1" was NOT called "Model 1" until the "Model 2" (and then 3) was announced > What we call "World War 1" was not called "1", nor even "World War", until "World War 2" was obvious. > What we call "single density" was not called "single density" until MFM was developed, and the MARKETING people called MFM "double density". The circuit boards say "Apple Computer 1" on them. So they had the optimistic "1" in the name originally. -Paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 25 23:39:42 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 21:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer stores In-Reply-To: <14ACF883-0ED1-4C22-91AA-4D0177D3764C@bu.edu> References: <14ACF883-0ED1-4C22-91AA-4D0177D3764C@bu.edu> Message-ID: >> Q: although WE call it "Apple I", did the Steves call it "Apple I" or "Apple Computer"? >> The answer tells us whether they were explicitly planning on making other models later! >> Wikipedia (a terrible choice of citation in anything DISPUTED) says that the '1' came later, and says that the first demonstration was by Woz at the Palo Alto Homebrew Computer Club. (Started by Gordon French and Fred Moore, with Lee Felsenstein soon after) >> >> For example, what we call "TRS80 Model 1" was NOT called "Model 1" until the "Model 2" (and then 3) was announced >> What we call "World War 1" was not called "1", nor even "World War", until "World War 2" was obvious. >> What we call "single density" was not called "single density" until MFM was developed, and the MARKETING people called MFM "double density". On Wed, 26 Aug 2020, Hagstrom, Paul wrote: > Kind of hopping in in the middle of an ongoing discussion that I haven't been following, but: > The circuit boards say "Apple Computer 1" on them. So they had the optimistic "1" in the name originally. Thank you. That is more trustworthy and definitive than Wikipedia. It shows that they considered the possibility that it was not solely a one-shot venture. It may seem like an irrelevaant piece of trivia, but it is interesting to go back to what our expectations had been. Yeah. I know. Like how I felt that it was important to create captions for "Hyperland" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 05:49:20 2020 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 06:49:20 -0400 Subject: From: John Klos Message-ID: "That might be true for discussions where people don't care to do any research, or where words like "first" are uses more for hyperbolic emphasis, but suggesting someone started an industry on a list like this, I think, doesn't seem out of place." I agree that using ?*first**?* has a certain connotation. However, until it is proven otherwise it?s quite appropriate. If this word were not used, by me or anyone else, on this website then we never get to learn anything ? *new*?. Even in historical writing, of which I?ve done some as a historian, one has to acknowledge a source, but I for the life of me can?t remember as I didn?t have the source on my electronic-research rolodex. In such an occasion, as the note I sent to cctalk, should have stated this. My apologies. Happy computing! Murray ? Virus-free. www.avg.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 06:43:16 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 13:43:16 +0200 Subject: Buying and running an IBM PC-XT in 2020 Message-ID: I found this blog post quite interesting. I've left what I hope is an informative, helpful comment. I wonder if anyone else here would have more to add? https://www.forsure.dev/-/2020/05/19/640-kilobytes-of-ram-and-why-i-bought-an-ibm-5160/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Aug 26 08:02:21 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 09:02:21 -0400 Subject: Off topic ? In-Reply-To: <20200826003228.GF4941@n0jcf.net> References: <8C54F0BA-390C-4B4E-9F11-55BD1D8A17B9@128.ca> <20200826003228.GF4941@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <77E11B80-0ECB-4618-A7DD-3768BDC115F9@comcast.net> > On Aug 25, 2020, at 8:32 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > On Tuesday (08/25/2020 at 04:36PM -0400), Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Not sure if this is off topic, but anyway.. >> >> There was also one with "tree" in its name, don't remember its full name and I think they shut down. > > Smalltree? They are some former SGI guys here in MN, > > https://small-tree.com/about-us/ > > -- > Chris Elmquist Yes, that sounds right. They don't seem to do iSCSI any longer. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 08:10:38 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 09:10:38 -0400 Subject: Buying and running an IBM PC-XT in 2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 7:43 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I found this blog post quite interesting. I've left what I hope is an > informative, helpful comment. I wonder if anyone else here would have > more to add? > > > https://www.forsure.dev/-/2020/05/19/640-kilobytes-of-ram-and-why-i-bought-an-ibm-5160/ I remember when the IBM XT was too new for a VCF exhibit, back when Sellam ran shows. The perspective is of a person who was not really part of the XT class machine world when they were pervasive. To me he seems to be exploring how they work as he teaches his son, but I guess most people forget at this point how to use a PC and DOS. Bill > > From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 08:31:48 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 15:31:48 +0200 Subject: Buying and running an IBM PC-XT in 2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 15:10, Bill Degnan wrote: > > I remember when the IBM XT was too new for a VCF exhibit, back when Sellam ran shows. I can believe that. I gutted 2 original working PC-ATs in about 1996 for cases for Pentium-class machines. I deeply regret it now but it was 25y ago -- they were only about 10y old and not remotely collectable or even very interesting at the time. I still have 2 MDA cards and one screen from them. > The perspective is of a person who was not really part of the XT class machine world when they were > pervasive. To me he seems to be exploring how they work as he teaches his son, but I guess most people > forget at this point how to use a PC and DOS. Exactly, yes. The PC came out nearly _forty years ago_ now, and only middle-aged types like myself (52!) remember them when they were new. I didn't see one until Uni in 1985, when I was 17. Working adult IT professionals in their mid-twenties to early 30s today grew up only with multicore 64-bit machines and have quite possibly only used SSD-equipped machines at work. Most have never seen or used a floppy diskette or CD-ROM, and machines with ISA slots and optical drives disappeared when they were small children. They might never have seen or used any kind of rotating or magnetic media whatsoever. Some I have personally encountered have never used a wired network connection. The era of 16-bit machines with rotating 5?" media (floppy, hard or optical) that you can _hear_ turning, that take time to get up to speed, where as you wait a minute or two for it to creak into life you can _hear_ motors whirring up, is as unknown to them as spinning the thread to make their own garments. For me, who started out at work on a PC-AT and worked on PC-XTs, it's a smooth continuum, but it's easy to forget that it really hasn't been, and the days of text-only single-tasking command-line machines with moving parts are last century... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 08:39:48 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 09:39:48 -0400 Subject: Buying and running an IBM PC-XT in 2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 9:32 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 15:10, Bill Degnan wrote: > > > > I remember when the IBM XT was too new for a VCF exhibit, back when > Sellam ran shows. > > I can believe that. > > I gutted 2 original working PC-ATs in about 1996 for cases for > Pentium-class machines. I deeply regret it now but it was 25y ago -- > they were only about 10y old and not remotely collectable or even very > interesting at the time. > > I still have 2 MDA cards and one screen from them. > > > The perspective is of a person who was not really part of the XT class > machine world when they were > > pervasive. To me he seems to be exploring how they work as he teaches > his son, but I guess most people > > forget at this point how to use a PC and DOS. > > Exactly, yes. The PC came out nearly _forty years ago_ now, and only > middle-aged types like myself (52!) remember them when they were new. > I didn't see one until Uni in 1985, when I was 17. > > Working adult IT professionals in their mid-twenties to early 30s > today grew up only with multicore 64-bit machines and have quite > possibly only used SSD-equipped machines at work. Most have never seen > or used a floppy diskette or CD-ROM, and machines with ISA slots and > optical drives disappeared when they were small children. They might > never have seen or used any kind of rotating or magnetic media > whatsoever. Some I have personally encountered have never used a wired > network connection. > > The era of 16-bit machines with rotating 5?" media (floppy, hard or > optical) that you can _hear_ turning, that take time to get up to > speed, where as you wait a minute or two for it to creak into life you > can _hear_ motors whirring up, is as unknown to them as spinning the > thread to make their own garments. > > For me, who started out at work on a PC-AT and worked on PC-XTs, it's > a smooth continuum, but it's easy to forget that it really hasn't > been, and the days of text-only single-tasking command-line machines > with moving parts are last century... > > -- > I delivered in a truck to the set up in Quebec the 20 IBM XTs that you see in the movie Xmen the Apocalypse. I retrieved them after the filming. I could set up an office or classroom of XTs. A funny if not impractical practical joke B > From ethan at 757.org Wed Aug 26 09:20:13 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 10:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Buying and running an IBM PC-XT in 2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I delivered in a truck to the set up in Quebec the 20 IBM XTs that you see > in the movie Xmen the Apocalypse. I retrieved them after the filming. I > could set up an office or classroom of XTs. A funny if not impractical > practical joke > B That is awesome! -- : Ethan O'Toole From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Wed Aug 26 13:03:39 2020 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 11:03:39 -0700 Subject: Computer stores In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 25 Aug 2020, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > > A few months later, two guys named Steve showed up at a meeting > > with a kit they called the "Apple I", for the grand price of > > $666.66. I wish I had had the foresight to buy one! > Q: although WE call it "Apple I", did the Steves call it "Apple I" or > "Apple Computer"? The answer tells us whether they were explicitly > planning on making other models later! I honestly do not recall if they used the "I" or not. This was, after all, 45 years ago! At that time there were many tiny startup companies trying to get our attention, most of which sank without a trace. If I had been asked back then which ones I thought would survive, I probably would not have picked Apple. Not my first mistake, and certainly not my last. :-) Those *were* exciting days, with new products and developments happening every month. I looked forward to every SCCS meeting, with people showing off their latest homebrew project, swapping tips, and buying parts & boards. For a while, there was even a large wheel of cheese which we eagerly devoured. :-) Alan Frisbie From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 13:11:20 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 12:11:20 -0600 Subject: Computer stores In-Reply-To: <14ACF883-0ED1-4C22-91AA-4D0177D3764C@bu.edu> References: <14ACF883-0ED1-4C22-91AA-4D0177D3764C@bu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 10:28 PM Hagstrom, Paul via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The circuit boards say "Apple Computer 1" on them. So they had the > optimistic "1" in the name originally. > The user manual, schematic, and some but not all advertisements also say "Apple 1" or "Apple-1". I haven't seen any official documents or communication that used the roman numeral "I", though some third-party material does. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 16:31:10 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 17:31:10 -0400 Subject: Buying and running an IBM PC-XT in 2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I could set up an office or classroom of XTs. A funny if not impractical > practical joke... About 5 years ago, I set up a classroom of discarded but essentially modern machines (Core2 Duo but couldn't run latest Windows) at our Makerspace. For amusement, I set up a Commodore 64 in the back corner. It got a lot of laughs. Except that we needed the seat for a student, I would have left it up for a few weeks. -ethan From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Aug 26 16:52:48 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 17:52:48 -0400 Subject: CYCLOID faceplate for Altair computer... References: <026001d67bf3$3d36a8b0$b7a3fa10$.ref@verizon.net> Message-ID: <026001d67bf3$3d36a8b0$b7a3fa10$@verizon.net> I seem to remember this being discussed many years ago, but I can't find it. Anyway, there's an Altair on epay right now with a CYCLOID faceplate. If I remember correctly, this is just a replacement plastic insert that was sold simply to "freshen up" an Altair where the original had worn badly, as so many did. I've done a fair amount of searching but I can't find an ad or other reference to the product. Does anyone recall the time period? I would assume it was at least a couple of years after the introduction of the Altair. 78 or 79? A pointer to an advertisement or one of those "new product" paragraphs that many of the magazines did back then would be most helpful. Thanks, Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 17:37:10 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 18:37:10 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 17:47:45 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 18:47:45 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Aug 26 18:11:05 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 19:11:05 -0400 Subject: More interesting stuff Message-ID: Found a few other items that might be of interest to someone. Two DEC Mice VS10X-EA Rev A3 DEC Joystick Model H3060 bill From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 27 02:11:05 2020 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 07:11:05 +0000 Subject: Herbert Schildt C code from books Message-ID: A wild guess that maybe some on the group may have these files. I bought the books from abe books, a few dollar's each. They are (vintage 80-90's) but of course the code floppy disks are not there. Did anybody keep these files? The Art of C The Craft of C C Power Users Guide I hope you say no, because I will probably learn more by keying in the code in the text, and finding my errors. Randy From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Aug 27 02:50:33 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 09:50:33 +0200 Subject: Herbert Schildt C code from books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200827075033.GA9333@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 07:11:05AM +0000, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: [...] > I hope you say no, because I will probably learn more by keying in the code > in the text, and finding my errors. The errors in the code will not be yours. You will learn more by throwing everything written by Herbert Schildt into the recycling and getting some decent books written by somebody who isn't a Dunning-Kruger case. I occasionaly hear him referred to as "Herbert Shit". His books have negative value, except perhaps as firelighters. Here are a couple of critiques of some of his other works which do not pull their punches: http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/schildt.html https://www.seebs.net/c/c_tcn4e.html From technoid6502 at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 08:32:28 2020 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 09:32:28 -0400 Subject: Buying and running an IBM PC-XT in 2020 Message-ID: <7e91cb25541bd6d9eeb8dfadc71bc347cc393b7d.camel@gmail.com> I decided to get a tvga8900 for mine, as fiddling with 15khz ttl is just too flaky and problemmatic. Having a real cga/ega monitor would be cool if I could justify the cost and the space, but a native fix is an isa vga card so that's my solution. I'm refurbing a 5170 for use as an imaging tool, ISA tester, etc. Best, Jeff Message: 23 Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 10:20:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Ethan O'Toole To: Bill Degnan , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Buying and running an IBM PC-XT in 2020 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > I delivered in a truck to the set up in Quebec the 20 IBM XTs that you see > in the movie Xmen the Apocalypse. I retrieved them after the filming. I > could set up an office or classroom of XTs. A funny if not impractical > practical joke > B That is awesome! -- : Ethan O'Toole From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Aug 27 09:16:18 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 14:16:18 +0000 Subject: Buying and running an IBM PC-XT in 2020 In-Reply-To: <7e91cb25541bd6d9eeb8dfadc71bc347cc393b7d.camel@gmail.com> References: <7e91cb25541bd6d9eeb8dfadc71bc347cc393b7d.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: There are a few 8-bit VGA boards with dual outputs (9-pin EGA and 15-pin VGA) that I keep in stock. Quadram makes them. That way I can use either the VGA on my KVM setup or a vintage monitor. I?ve also stockpiled various ISA cards like MFM, SCSI and memory expansion like BocaRAM or AboveBoard. In my AT, I have a Quadram board, BocaRAM (2MB) and an Adapted AHA-1522. Works great. Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 9:32:28 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Buying and running an IBM PC-XT in 2020 I decided to get a tvga8900 for mine, as fiddling with 15khz ttl is just too flaky and problemmatic. Having a real cga/ega monitor would be cool if I could justify the cost and the space, but a native fix is an isa vga card so that's my solution. I'm refurbing a 5170 for use as an imaging tool, ISA tester, etc. Best, Jeff Message: 23 Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 10:20:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Ethan O'Toole To: Bill Degnan , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Buying and running an IBM PC-XT in 2020 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > I delivered in a truck to the set up in Quebec the 20 IBM XTs that you see > in the movie Xmen the Apocalypse. I retrieved them after the filming. I > could set up an office or classroom of XTs. A funny if not impractical > practical joke > B That is awesome! -- : Ethan O'Toole From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Aug 27 16:19:01 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 17:19:01 -0400 Subject: CYCLOID faceplate for Altair computer... Message-ID: <033301d67cb7$afb19ac0$0f14d040$@verizon.net> Finally found it: https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Poptronics/70s/1977/Poptronics-1977-03 .pdf Bottom of page 116 (PDF page 108) From: William Sudbrink [mailto:wh.sudbrink at verizon.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 5:53 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: CYCLOID faceplate for Altair computer... I seem to remember this being discussed many years ago, but I can't find it. Anyway, there's an Altair on epay right now with a CYCLOID faceplate. If I remember correctly, this is just a replacement plastic insert that was sold simply to "freshen up" an Altair where the original had worn badly, as so many did. I've done a fair amount of searching but I can't find an ad or other reference to the product. Does anyone recall the time period? I would assume it was at least a couple of years after the introduction of the Altair. 78 or 79? A pointer to an advertisement or one of those "new product" paragraphs that many of the magazines did back then would be most helpful. Thanks, Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Thu Aug 27 15:17:43 2020 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 16:17:43 -0400 Subject: More interesting stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0fb9c5a0-158c-e2a4-2c9d-fea563c2df07@comcast.net> On 8/26/2020 7:11 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: > > > Found a few other items that might be of interest to someone. > > Two DEC Mice VS10X-EA Rev A3 > > DEC Joystick Model H3060 > > bill Where did you see the H3060 Joystick? Doug From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Thu Aug 27 15:24:41 2020 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 16:24:41 -0400 Subject: Scientific Micro Systems driver Message-ID: <1fcc57eb-a836-93af-dbcc-2a01bd9b1f01@comcast.net> All; SMS made disk controller systems that used their own device driver, seemed to be an enhanced DY (RX02) driver.? Does anyone have the driver/formatting software? The model I have is FWD 0106 and is described in bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/sms/brochures/SMS_FWD0106,1106_Flyer_Aug82.pdf Doug From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Aug 27 15:56:27 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 13:56:27 -0700 Subject: Scientific Micro Systems driver In-Reply-To: <1fcc57eb-a836-93af-dbcc-2a01bd9b1f01@comcast.net> References: <1fcc57eb-a836-93af-dbcc-2a01bd9b1f01@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2020, at 1:24 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > > > All; > > SMS made disk controller systems that used their own device driver, seemed to be an enhanced DY (RX02) driver. Does anyone have the driver/formatting software? > > The model I have is FWD 0106 and is described in bitsavers: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/sms/brochures/SMS_FWD0106,1106_Flyer_Aug82.pdf > > Doug I?ve never seen it. I used to have two SMS-1000?s, one had a 5.25? floppy, the other an 8?. The disk controllers were part of why I sold them, the other is I found someone that needed them for production systems, and paid $$$?s. :-) The two I had had the dual height /73 boards without boot ROMs or SLU?s. As part of the deal, I got a quad-height /73 board, fully loaded. :-) Zane From commodorejohn at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 17:44:15 2020 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 15:44:15 -0700 Subject: Herbert Schildt C code from books Message-ID: He shoulda stuck to being the keyboardist for Starcastle; he was actually good at that! From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 17:59:04 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 18:59:04 -0400 Subject: CYCLOID faceplate for Altair computer... In-Reply-To: <033301d67cb7$afb19ac0$0f14d040$@verizon.net> References: <033301d67cb7$afb19ac0$0f14d040$.ref@verizon.net> <033301d67cb7$afb19ac0$0f14d040$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Wow, some sleuthing. I love those old classified pages Bill On Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 5:20 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Finally found it: > > > > > https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Poptronics/70s/1977/Poptronics-1977-03 > .pdf > > > > > Bottom of page 116 (PDF page 108) > > > > From: William Sudbrink [mailto:wh.sudbrink at verizon.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 5:53 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: CYCLOID faceplate for Altair computer... > > > > I seem to remember this being discussed many years ago, but I can't find > it. > > > > Anyway, there's an Altair on epay right now with a CYCLOID faceplate. > > If I remember correctly, this is just a replacement plastic insert that was > > sold simply to "freshen up" an Altair where the original had worn badly, > > as so many did. I've done a fair amount of searching but I can't find an > > ad or other reference to the product. Does anyone recall the time period? > > I would assume it was at least a couple of years after the introduction of > > the Altair. 78 or 79? A pointer to an advertisement or one of those "new > > product" paragraphs that many of the magazines did back then would be > > most helpful. > > > > Thanks, > > Bill S. > > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 27 18:02:08 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 18:02:08 -0500 Subject: Herbert Schildt C code from books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d67cc6$1744c500$45ce4f00$@classiccmp.org> I thought starcastle was mostly a Saint Louis area thing. Lady of the Lake is on my playlist. -----Original Message----- >He shoulda stuck to being the keyboardist for Starcastle; he was actually good at that! From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 27 18:02:48 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 18:02:48 -0500 Subject: michael Holley? Message-ID: <000101d67cc6$2ecb1bc0$8c615340$@classiccmp.org> Anyone have good contact info for Michael Holley? From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Aug 27 18:38:48 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 16:38:48 -0700 Subject: Herbert Schildt C code from books In-Reply-To: <000001d67cc6$1744c500$45ce4f00$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d67cc6$1744c500$45ce4f00$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I rather thought that Starcastle was simply an awesome video game, and it?s one of my favorite Atari 2600 cartridges. Zane > On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:02 PM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > > I thought starcastle was mostly a Saint Louis area thing. Lady of the Lake is on my playlist. > > -----Original Message----- >> He shoulda stuck to being the keyboardist for Starcastle; he was actually good at that! > > From commodorejohn at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 19:06:15 2020 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 17:06:15 -0700 Subject: Herbert Schildt C code from books In-Reply-To: <000001d67cc6$1744c500$45ce4f00$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d67cc6$1744c500$45ce4f00$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I don't know how well-known they were in their day; I only discovered them around a decade ago, while digging into lesser-known progressive-rock groups. Definitely a nice little treat, though - people who gave them crap for sounding a lot like Yes weren't wrong, but they had enough going on to be worth listening to nonetheless. On 8/27/20, jwest at classiccmp.org wrote: > I thought starcastle was mostly a Saint Louis area thing. Lady of the Lake > is on my playlist. > > -----Original Message----- >>He shoulda stuck to being the keyboardist for Starcastle; he was actually >> good at that! > > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Aug 27 17:21:01 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 18:21:01 -0400 Subject: More interesting stuff In-Reply-To: <0fb9c5a0-158c-e2a4-2c9d-fea563c2df07@comcast.net> References: <0fb9c5a0-158c-e2a4-2c9d-fea563c2df07@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 8/27/20 4:17 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > On 8/26/2020 7:11 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: >> >> >> Found a few other items that might be of interest to someone. >> >> Two DEC Mice VS10X-EA Rev A3 >> >> DEC Joystick Model H3060 >> >> bill > > Where did you see the H3060 Joystick? > In my pile of old DEC stuff. bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Aug 28 11:07:05 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 12:07:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator Message-ID: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> After having a run of almost half a dozen IDE hard drive failures recently in a short period of time (on my older desktops which use them, I've decided that I should see if there's an IDE emulator (using SD cards) available I could switch to. (I'm not sure why I had so many failures in such a short period; I can only conclude that they're too old now, and reaching the end of their service lives. So soes anyone have one (or more) they can recommend? (IDE simulators only; I don't want to have to mess around changing anything more than I _absolutely_ have to)? I did find these guys: http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=74_64 in an online search - the CFADPTHD seems like it's close to what I'd want, except it's Compact Flash; I'd have preferred SD but I guess converting their interface to IDE is more work. Noel From dab at froghouse.org Fri Aug 28 11:15:05 2020 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 12:15:05 -0400 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> > in an online search - the CFADPTHD seems like it's close to what I'd want, > except it's Compact Flash; I'd have preferred SD but I guess converting > their interface to IDE is more work. Yeah, I think Compact Flash actually uses the IDE protocol just with a different form-factor while SD cards are their own thing so a conversion from SD to IDE is a whole lot more work. Although, I did find these so I guess you're not the first to want this: https://www.amazon.com/40Pin-Male-Hard-Drive-Adapter/dp/B01ANIQNK4 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076597T9H/ref=dp_prsubs_1 https://www.newegg.com/syba-sd-cf-ide-br-ide-to-compact-flash/p/N82E16812186002?Description=ide%20to%20sd%20adapter&cm_re=ide_to%20sd%20adapter-_-12-186-002-_-Product&quicklink=true https://www.newegg.com/syba-sd-cf-ide-di-ide-to-compact-flash/p/N82E16822998003?Description=ide%20to%20sd%20adapter&cm_re=ide_to%20sd%20adapter-_-22-998-003-_-Product https://www.newegg.com/syba-sd-ada45006-ide-to-compact-flash/p/N82E16812186098?Description=ide%20to%20sd%20adapter&cm_re=ide_to%20sd%20adapter-_-12-186-098-_-Product&quicklink=true From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 28 11:19:19 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 09:19:19 -0700 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 8/28/20 9:07 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I've decided that > I should see if there's an IDE emulator (using SD cards) available I could > switch to. You may want to use PATA disk-on-module. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Aug 28 11:20:50 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 11:20:50 -0500 Subject: michael Holley? In-Reply-To: <0b2901d67d0f$04337170$0c9a5450$@gmail.com> References: <000101d67cc6$2ecb1bc0$8c615340$@classiccmp.org> <0b2901d67d0f$04337170$0c9a5450$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001d67d57$32318060$96948120$@classiccmp.org> I need advice on a path forward then. From emails I got from Michael, Bill Dawson gave him authority over both swtpc.com and swtpc.org. Originally, Bill Dawson had swtpc.com but Michael was managing/uploading much of the content there under the mholley subdirectory (www.swtpc.com/mholley). Michael registered swtpc.org and I set that as a redirect to the subdirectory on swtpc.com. Michael stated that at some point the sites would be merged and he would be the sole site maintainer. So now I am hosting swtpc.com and swtpc.org, and ownership of the site is up in the air. Whoever owns swtpc.com doesn't have an A record, which effectively kills off swtpc.org (redirect fails) as well. All that good content (and there's a fair amount) is no longer accessible. I see herb johnson ripped the site and has a copy over at deramp, but no clue if that is a complete copy that descended from Bill or Mikes wishes. My initial plan - since I have no registrar access to swtpc.com and it doesn't point to my name servers, nothing I can do. But swtpc.org at least still, is pointing to my nameservers. I will change the apache config from a redirect to the real contents (but not sure if it should bring up the content that was swtpc.com or swtpc.org). At least a real site will be up. That being said, I am moving the sites I host free from one server to another. That project is ongoing the past few days. I would like to move swtpc.* as well, but see above. If someone has a reasonably cogent claim to the content I would hand the site (both) to them. If it's long been gone and other copies are complete and commonly used, then I could just delete it but hesitant to do so. I would like to decommission the old server but this should be resolved first. Feel free to send me advice/thoughts/claims/rants off-list. J From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Aug 28 11:27:03 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 10:27:03 -0600 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 10:19 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 8/28/20 9:07 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > I've decided that > > I should see if there's an IDE emulator (using SD cards) available I > could > > switch to. > You may want to use PATA disk-on-module. > There's also a crap-ton of SATA<->PATA adapters that I've used to good effect everywhere except in space constrained situations (think laptop). Warner From seanellis9 at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 09:10:13 2020 From: seanellis9 at gmail.com (Sean Ellis) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 09:10:13 -0500 Subject: Looking for MIPS Magnum R4000 or compatible Message-ID: Hello all, apparently I've been in this group now for weeks but my spam filter thinks it's all spam. Fixed that, I hope. Does anyone have any leads on a MIPS Magnum R4000 or Jazz-compatible machine? I've been working for a while on trying to round out my collection of alt-arch WinNT machines, and the Magnum has proven to be the most elusive. Thanks From bvasea at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 11:34:17 2020 From: bvasea at gmail.com (Vasile Buruiana) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 19:34:17 +0300 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Check to see if JMicron's sata(drive) to ide(host) is suitable to your need. They also come with bi-directional switch to select which end goes to the mainboard. ypu can connect a big ssd or a sata to M2 adapter. But be aware they have two problems: - they need +5V power supply, either from the fdd connector or from USB; - they do not get along with Sun Ultrasparc systems: the sata hdd is always read-only. You can also get a pci sata controller. On Friday, August 28, 2020, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 10:19 AM Al Kossow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > On 8/28/20 9:07 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > I've decided that > > > I should see if there's an IDE emulator (using SD cards) available I > > could > > > switch to. > > You may want to use PATA disk-on-module. > > > > There's also a crap-ton of SATA<->PATA adapters that I've used to good > effect everywhere except in space constrained situations (think laptop). > > Warner > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 11:37:39 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 00:37:39 +0800 Subject: Brittle plastic Message-ID: Today I was working on a very nice 1995 vintage SPARCstation LX with CDROM and QIC-150 tape drive (3 lunchbox type units). I was trying to install a newer version of NetBSD on it than was already installed. The stack of 3 units was stored in a museum grade glass display cabinet. Sadly all 3 units have a small degree of yellowing but more importantly the plastic cases have become very brittle and bits just break off with minimal mechanical strain. Is there any process to reverse the brittleness which could be used to preserve the cases? Thanks Tom Hunter From ccth6600 at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 11:42:34 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 00:42:34 +0800 Subject: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? Message-ID: About 20 years ago I rescued a fully working Sun SPARCstation LX with CDROM and QIC-150 tape drive - all 3 in lunchbox format - plus monitor when we moved office and management decided they no longer wanted/needed it. Shortly after I have installed an early version of NetBSD (1.3.3) from the CDROM drive. I played with it for a few days and then stored the entire system in a museum grade glass display cabinet. This is indoors with minimal dust and benign temperatures between 18 degrees C to about 28 degrees C (typical room temperatures here in Perth in Western Australia unless you run the air conditioner). Now retired I took the stack of "lunch-boxes" and the CRT monitor out of the display cabinet and powered it up. After 20 years no smoke came out but the system didn't boot but reported trouble with the NVRAM setting. I still could start NetBSD using a "boot disk" command. I googled the problem and bought and installed a replacement TIMEKEEPER chip (M48T08-100). After defaulting the settings and setting the MAC address and machine ID it was happy and booted from disk without intervention. In NetBSD I then set the date and time and all was good. Then I decided to upgrade to the latest version of the SPARC version of NetBSD 9.0. I downloaded and burned the ISO image to CD. Dropped it into a CD caddy and inserted it into the CDROM drive (SUN Model 411 - really a Sony CDU-8012 3.1e). I did a "probe-scsi-all" and it found both the hard drive and the CDROM (target 6 unit 0). Now comes the problem - if it try to run from it via "boot cdrom" it doesn't even access the CDROM drive - the LED doesn't turn on unlike when you do the "probe-scsi-all". The "cdrom" alias is really: "/iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4 ,8800000/sd at 6,0:d". The "disk" alias is really: "/iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4,8800000/sd at 3,0" The "@3" versus the "@6" are the SCSI IDs of the disk drive versus the CDROM. I don't know what the trailing bits mean. I tried cdrom aliases from "sd at 6,0:0" to "sd at 6,0:f" and all report: Can't read disk label Can't open disk label package Can't open boot device The LED doesn't blink even once unless I remove and re-insert the caddy with the CDROM media or if I do a "probe-scsi" or "probe-scsi-all". I tried original Sun Solaris 2.4 installation media with the exact same result/symptoms. I also tried to access the CDROM from NetBSD using "cat /dev/cd0a" but the drive's LED didn't blink and I got an obscure error message. The Boot ROM revision is reported as 2.9. The system was bought about 1985 or 1986 and has seen very little use. I searched google without success. Maybe I used the wrong search terms or the equipment is just getting too old and FAQs have disappeared. What would cause the CDROM boot problem? There is a chance that the actual Sony drive died. I partially disassembled it hoping to find dust stuck on the LASER optics but it was nice and clean. The positioning and ejection mechanisms work just fine. The whole system was working before I put it into my relatively dust proof glass display cabinet. Thanks and best regards Tom Hunter From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Aug 28 11:52:13 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 10:52:13 -0600 Subject: Looking for MIPS Magnum R4000 or compatible In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 10:29 AM Sean Ellis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello all, apparently I've been in this group now for weeks but my > spam filter thinks it's all spam. Fixed that, I hope. > > Does anyone have any leads on a MIPS Magnum R4000 or Jazz-compatible > machine? I've been working for a while on trying to round out my > collection of alt-arch WinNT machines, and the Magnum has proven to be > the most elusive. > I have a DeskStation ARCstation. Not quite Magnum compatible, but ran WinNT... It has an R4000PC in it, ircc. Warner From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 28 12:10:19 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 13:10:19 -0400 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> > On Aug 28, 2020, at 12:15 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > > >> in an online search - the CFADPTHD seems like it's close to what I'd want, >> except it's Compact Flash; I'd have preferred SD but I guess converting >> their interface to IDE is more work. > > > Yeah, I think Compact Flash actually uses the IDE protocol just with a > different form-factor while SD cards are their own thing so a conversion > from SD to IDE is a whole lot more work. Correct. CF cards talk to a SATA controller, you just have to adjust the pinout. SD is a packet based storage device on a serial interconnect, minimally one lane wide but it can also be four lanes (and that's typically how you use it). Apparently it starts out in a SPI compatible mode, interesting. Also, SD requires a rather complex handshake at power up to get to the point where you can do I/O. One oddity I remember from a decade ago is that it has a high speed mode where the clock speed is doubled. That's not strange. What's strange is that when you do this, the device switches from clocking data on the rising edge to clocking on the falling edge, or the other way around, I don't remember which. Fortunately I wasn't the hardware designer who had to cope with all that strangeness. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 28 12:31:43 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 10:31:43 -0700 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 8/28/20 9:07 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > After having a run of almost half a dozen IDE hard drive failures recently in > a short period of time what brand/model drives have been failing? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 28 12:40:37 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 10:40:37 -0700 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 8/28/20 10:10 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > SD is a packet based storage device on a serial interconnect You really do need SMART monitoring on solid-state storage which may or may not exist in the adapters. SSDs will silently fail if they run out of sectors to write to. Also, I discovered recently that there is a maximum number of hours measured in years on SSDs and systems will start throwing SMART errors when that is exceeded. I have a few doing that now on systems with minimal writes but lots of hours. There are long discussions elsewhere of the dangers of using non-industrial rated CFs and SDs in storage applications. From pat at vax11.net Fri Aug 28 12:52:02 2020 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 13:52:02 -0400 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I've standardized on, and been happy with these: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000415725711.html There's a lot of vendors that sell them, including on ebay and Amazon. I haven't really had any problem with those adapters, including on native ISA IDE controllers and XT-IDE. There's IDE to CF adapters too, but I find SD cards easier to use and cheaper/easier to get in bulk. Pat On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 12:07 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > After having a run of almost half a dozen IDE hard drive failures recently > in > a short period of time (on my older desktops which use them, I've decided > that > I should see if there's an IDE emulator (using SD cards) available I could > switch to. (I'm not sure why I had so many failures in such a short > period; I > can only conclude that they're too old now, and reaching the end of their > service lives. > > So soes anyone have one (or more) they can recommend? (IDE simulators > only; I > don't want to have to mess around changing anything more than I > _absolutely_ > have to)? I did find these guys: > > http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=74_64 > > in an online search - the CFADPTHD seems like it's close to what I'd want, > except it's Compact Flash; I'd have preferred SD but I guess converting > their interface to IDE is more work. > > Noel > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Aug 28 13:09:20 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 11:09:20 -0700 Subject: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56c47d01-0897-e30e-e4de-574e1d2efec3@jwsss.com> On 8/28/2020 9:42 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > > Now comes the problem - if it try to run from it via "boot cdrom" it > doesn't even access the CDROM drive - the LED doesn't turn on unlike when > you do the "probe-scsi-all". > > > > > > Thanks and best regards > > Tom Hunter > There's a problem if you are using a Sun branded CD drive.? I think they were initially source by Sony, but could be wrong. If you used writable CD's in the day, you would hit a problem because sun mastered their mask CDs with a difference in the default sector size.? They and the Sony drive are actually in error, and the writable CD media is conformant to the standards, but Sun left it in there. For over a year people ran around like crazy trying to figure it out, and most just bought the Sun branded drive. The end result was that you wanted a Plextor or Toshiba 3401 or maybe 3501 SCSI drive.? They take the order and respond so the boot code doesn't fail till the blocksize is set to I think 2k. If you can find one (unfortunately I've got two in the cabinet here for this reason), you might try that. Those with better sources / memories can correct, I'm relating a problem I recall with CDROM boot from 30 years ago, and I've not gotten my pile out yet to try it again myself. Only thing in your description that doesn't fit my memory that worries me a bit is the failure of your 2.4 media.? If it's the Sun mask mastered media that doesn't fit my problem symptoms. Thanks jim From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Aug 28 13:28:01 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 12:28:01 -0600 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 11:10 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Aug 28, 2020, at 12:15 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > >> in an online search - the CFADPTHD seems like it's close to what I'd > want, > >> except it's Compact Flash; I'd have preferred SD but I guess converting > >> their interface to IDE is more work. > > > > > > Yeah, I think Compact Flash actually uses the IDE protocol just with a > > different form-factor while SD cards are their own thing so a conversion > > from SD to IDE is a whole lot more work. > > Correct. CF cards talk to a SATA controller, you just have to adjust the > pinout. > > SD is a packet based storage device on a serial interconnect, minimally > one lane wide but it can also be four lanes (and that's typically how you > use it). Apparently it starts out in a SPI compatible mode, interesting. > Also, SD requires a rather complex handshake at power up to get to the > point where you can do I/O. > There's a number of SD to PATA adapters though where all this goo is put into a chip and you don't worry too much about it... I've used these and they are as good as the SD card you put in them... Warner From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Aug 28 13:32:54 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 12:32:54 -0600 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 11:41 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 8/28/20 10:10 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > SD is a packet based storage device on a serial interconnect > You really do need SMART monitoring on solid-state storage > which may or may not exist in the adapters. SSDs will silently > fail if they run out of sectors to write to. > For the PATA to SATA adapters, they exist to the extent the SSD supports them. Smart here is not standardized... but smartmontools has a big enough database to keep you happy... > Also, I discovered recently that there is a maximum number of hours > measured in years on SSDs and systems will start throwing SMART > errors when that is exceeded. I have a few doing that now on systems > with minimal writes but lots of hours. > Interesting... I have several SSDs in the field now that have been powered on for 7 or 8 years... I've not yet seen this behavior, though I do see a few of them die every month due to old age.... > There are long discussions elsewhere of the dangers of using non-industrial > rated CFs and SDs in storage applications. > Yes. "Only as good as the card you put in." and most of the cards are poo. Though the latter-day CF cards tend to be quite good since they are for high end cameras and tend to use relatively good quality NAND to get the performance those cameras need, endurance goes along for the ride. Most of the issues with CF and SD cards are in continuous use, though, where there's lots of writes and not much idle time for the card to do anything about it and power failures are a lot more common on CF/SD cards with high write loads than for SSDs... Warner From dab at froghouse.org Fri Aug 28 14:13:54 2020 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 15:13:54 -0400 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> Message-ID: <956ee939-8f54-1645-4098-925070c016d8@froghouse.org> On 8/28/20 1:10 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > SD is a packet based storage device on a serial interconnect, minimally one lane wide but it can also be four lanes (and that's typically how you use it). Apparently it starts out in a SPI compatible mode, interesting. Also, SD requires a rather complex handshake at power up to get to the point where you can do I/O. I've implemented the SPI protocol in a little micro-coded engine on an FPGA and have considered upgrading it to the standard interface over one to four lanes except it looks like the SD licensing says I'm not supposed to do that without paying them a bunch of money.? And yeah, it took me a while to work through the initialization dance and it still fails from time to time (and from SD card to SD card). However ... > One oddity I remember from a decade ago is that it has a high speed mode where the clock speed is doubled. That's not strange. What's strange is that when you do this, the device switches from clocking data on the rising edge to clocking on the falling edge, or the other way around, I don't remember which. Fortunately I wasn't the hardware designer who had to cope with all that strangeness. ... this I had totally missed.? Doubling the clock speed (from 25 to 50 MHz) would be relatively easy (once I'm not running this over long ribbon cable) but switching the clock around like that would have really confused me, I think.? Thanks for the heads-up. There's some other speed increase (UHS) that comes along with also dropping from 3.3V down to 1.8V.? I don't know how to program FPGAs to do that or even know if they can. From seanellis9 at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 13:09:26 2020 From: seanellis9 at gmail.com (Sean Ellis) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 13:09:26 -0500 Subject: Looking for MIPS Magnum R4000 or compatible In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Doesn't have to be strictly a MIPS Magnum R4000, just a MIPS R4000 ARC box! Can be a Magnum, a Deskstation, NeTPower, Pica, any of them really. On 8/28/20, Warner Losh wrote: > On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 10:29 AM Sean Ellis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hello all, apparently I've been in this group now for weeks but my >> spam filter thinks it's all spam. Fixed that, I hope. >> >> Does anyone have any leads on a MIPS Magnum R4000 or Jazz-compatible >> machine? I've been working for a while on trying to round out my >> collection of alt-arch WinNT machines, and the Magnum has proven to be >> the most elusive. >> > > I have a DeskStation ARCstation. Not quite Magnum compatible, but ran > WinNT... It has an R4000PC in it, ircc. > > Warner > From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Aug 28 14:31:11 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 13:31:11 -0600 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: <956ee939-8f54-1645-4098-925070c016d8@froghouse.org> References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> <956ee939-8f54-1645-4098-925070c016d8@froghouse.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 1:14 PM David Bridgham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 8/28/20 1:10 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > SD is a packet based storage device on a serial interconnect, minimally > one lane wide but it can also be four lanes (and that's typically how you > use it). Apparently it starts out in a SPI compatible mode, interesting. > Also, SD requires a rather complex handshake at power up to get to the > point where you can do I/O. > > > I've implemented the SPI protocol in a little micro-coded engine on an > FPGA and have considered upgrading it to the standard interface over one > to four lanes except it looks like the SD licensing says I'm not > supposed to do that without paying them a bunch of money. And yeah, it > took me a while to work through the initialization dance and it still > fails from time to time (and from SD card to SD card). > > However ... > > > > One oddity I remember from a decade ago is that it has a high speed mode > where the clock speed is doubled. That's not strange. What's strange is > that when you do this, the device switches from clocking data on the rising > edge to clocking on the falling edge, or the other way around, I don't > remember which. Fortunately I wasn't the hardware designer who had to cope > with all that strangeness. > > > ... this I had totally missed. Doubling the clock speed (from 25 to 50 > MHz) would be relatively easy (once I'm not running this over long > ribbon cable) but switching the clock around like that would have really > confused me, I think. Thanks for the heads-up. > > There's some other speed increase (UHS) that comes along with also > dropping from 3.3V down to 1.8V. I don't know how to program FPGAs to > do that or even know if they can. > I thought it was going from SPI mode to MMC mode that did this, not the double clocking nor the 1bit to 4bit bus steps. Warner From dab at froghouse.org Fri Aug 28 14:49:51 2020 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 15:49:51 -0400 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> <956ee939-8f54-1645-4098-925070c016d8@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <69a51d25-c707-0ecc-133d-4aaf8d50d2f0@froghouse.org> On 8/28/20 3:31 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > There's some other speed increase (UHS) that comes along with also > dropping from 3.3V down to 1.8V.? I don't know how to program > FPGAs to > do that or even know if they can. > > > I thought it was going from SPI mode to MMC mode that did this, not > the double clocking nor the 1bit to 4bit bus steps. I knew it wasn't either the double clocking or using all four lanes, I just didn't know what it was called and was too lazy to dig out the SD protocol spec. But now I pulled up the spec and it's saying that it's UHS cards that support the modes that use the lower voltage and there are seven bus speed modes: DS (Default Speed) HS (High Speed) SDR12 SDR25 SDR50 DDR50 SDR104 DS and HS use 3.3V signaling while the SDR and DDR modes use 1.8V.? Then UHS-II adds a couple more modes.? SPI mode is separate from all of this, something just tossed in there for us hobbyists to play around with. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 28 15:00:50 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 13:00:50 -0700 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: <956ee939-8f54-1645-4098-925070c016d8@froghouse.org> References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> <956ee939-8f54-1645-4098-925070c016d8@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <67d4d595-be15-1459-1685-b73f08bc7363@sydex.com> On 8/28/20 12:13 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > On 8/28/20 1:10 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> SD is a packet based storage device on a serial interconnect, >> minimally one lane wide but it can also be four lanes (and that's >> typically how you use it).? Apparently it starts out in a SPI >> compatible mode, interesting.? Also, SD requires a rather complex >> handshake at power up to get to the point where you can do I/O. > > > I've implemented the SPI protocol in a little micro-coded engine on an > FPGA and have considered upgrading it to the standard interface over one > to four lanes except it looks like the SD licensing says I'm not > supposed to do that without paying them a bunch of money.? And yeah, it > took me a while to work through the initialization dance and it still > fails from time to time (and from SD card to SD card). I use the 4 bit SDO when accessing SDHCs, adjusting speed according to whatever the card says. It's really easy with many microcontrollers. For example, the very inexpensive STM32F4 series implements it natively, computes CRC automatically and does it all in double-buffered DMA mode. Runs at around 180MHz too with lots of GPIOs and a bunch of SRAM. Plenty of code libraries out there. Why dink around when silicon is cheap? MCUs are everywhere; in many cases cheaper than discrete logic. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Aug 28 15:04:49 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 14:04:49 -0600 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 8/28/20 10:07 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > After having a run of almost half a dozen IDE hard drive failures > recently in a short period of time (on my older desktops which use > them, I've decided that I should see if there's an IDE emulator > (using SD cards) available I could switch to. It's not an SD card per say. At least not directly. But I am very intrigued by the idea of using a Raspberry Pi to bit-bang IDE. Link - Raspberry Pi Gets PATA/IDE Drive Via GPIO Header | Hackaday - https://hackaday.com/2020/08/10/raspberry-pi-gets-pata-ide-drive-via-gpio-header/ -- Grant. . . . unix || die From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 28 15:36:17 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 16:36:17 -0400 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9E9D1D07-DB9F-4E6B-864A-3FC5F55BC615@comcast.net> > On Aug 28, 2020, at 1:40 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 8/28/20 10:10 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> SD is a packet based storage device on a serial interconnect > You really do need SMART monitoring on solid-state storage > which may or may not exist in the adapters. SSDs will silently > fail if they run out of sectors to write to. Yes, if they wear out. But the lowest I have seen is around 100 writes per sector, which means that once you've written 100x the device capacity total (times the "write amplification" which depends on write size patterns) you'd start to consume spare sectors, and you don't have a problem until those run out which is still some time later. That said, I have seen it happen, with very small CF cards and software that was, by a coding slip-up, writing every few minutes non-stop. > Also, I discovered recently that there is a maximum number of hours > measured in years on SSDs and systems will start throwing SMART > errors when that is exceeded. I have a few doing that now on systems > with minimal writes but lots of hours. That's curious. There may be a read retention time limit, though I think that applies only if the device is powered down. When powered up, the device firmware takes care of refreshing the sectors, somewhat like memory refresh but with refresh cycles of weeks or months. > There are long discussions elsewhere of the dangers of using non-industrial > rated CFs and SDs in storage applications. Good advice for serious work especially if you're running heavy workloads. I wouldn't worry about it much for my home firewall. But the servers running bitsavers.org are an entirely different matter. One way to look at it: if you are, or should be, using RAID, you should be using industrial grade SSDs. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 28 15:40:41 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 16:40:41 -0400 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> <956ee939-8f54-1645-4098-925070c016d8@froghouse.org> Message-ID: > On Aug 28, 2020, at 3:31 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > >> On 8/28/20 1:10 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> ... >> One oddity I remember from a decade ago is that it has a high speed mode >> where the clock speed is doubled. That's not strange. What's strange is >> that when you do this, the device switches from clocking data on the rising >> edge to clocking on the falling edge, or the other way around, I don't >> remember which. Fortunately I wasn't the hardware designer who had to cope >> with all that strangeness. > > I thought it was going from SPI mode to MMC mode that did this, not the > double clocking nor the 1bit to 4bit bus steps. It's been over a decade, but I'm pretty sure that 1 lane to 4 lane mode is just a width change. But when we started using 50 MHz capable cards and wanted to support those, I learned about that clock edge changeover. Both are 4 lanes wide, and the fast devices also support the slower clock and I believe initially come up in that mode. So you end up issuing a "go fast" command and as part of that you have to tell the FPGA to switch its latches to the other mode, and you do this dance carefully so you don't see any false error indications due to the latching mode change. paul From dab at froghouse.org Fri Aug 28 15:51:13 2020 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 16:51:13 -0400 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: <67d4d595-be15-1459-1685-b73f08bc7363@sydex.com> References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> <956ee939-8f54-1645-4098-925070c016d8@froghouse.org> <67d4d595-be15-1459-1685-b73f08bc7363@sydex.com> Message-ID: <576d1051-90c9-a643-8af3-1157138364dd@froghouse.org> On 8/28/20 4:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Plenty of code libraries out there. Why dink around when silicon is > cheap? MCUs are everywhere; in many cases cheaper than discrete logic. Might have been better but I had the FPGA there anyway for other reasons so I just connected a few pins to the SD card and started writing code. From abs at absd.org Fri Aug 28 15:53:43 2020 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 21:53:43 +0100 Subject: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Aug 2020 at 17:43, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > About 20 years ago I rescued a fully working Sun SPARCstation LX with CDROM > and QIC-150 tape drive - all 3 in lunchbox format - plus monitor when we > moved office and management decided they no longer wanted/needed it. > > Shortly after I have installed an early version of NetBSD (1.3.3) from the > CDROM drive. I played with it for a few days and then stored the entire > system in a museum grade glass display cabinet. This is indoors with > minimal dust and benign temperatures between 18 degrees C to about 28 > degrees C (typical room temperatures here in Perth in Western Australia > unless you run the air conditioner). > > Now retired I took the stack of "lunch-boxes" and the CRT monitor out of > the display cabinet and powered it up. After 20 years no smoke came out but > the system didn't boot but reported trouble with the NVRAM setting. I still > could start NetBSD using a "boot disk" command. I googled the problem and > bought and installed a replacement TIMEKEEPER chip (M48T08-100). After > defaulting the settings and setting the MAC address and machine ID it was > happy and booted from disk without intervention. In NetBSD I then set the > date and time and all was good. > > Then I decided to upgrade to the latest version of the SPARC version of > NetBSD 9.0. I downloaded and burned the ISO image to CD. Dropped it into a > CD caddy and inserted it into the CDROM drive (SUN Model 411 - really a > Sony CDU-8012 3.1e). I did a "probe-scsi-all" and it found both the hard > drive and the CDROM (target 6 unit 0). I have nothing useful to add on the CDROM, but regarding upgrading NetBSD, one option would be to setup a netboot server and upgrade that way. Once setup it also provides an easy way to boot any sparc box with a working network interface (handy for when a Quantum 105 has a sticktion day :). David From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Aug 28 16:11:09 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 16:11:09 -0500 Subject: swtpc, mikeholley, early computer stores Message-ID: <000001d67d7f$c071a440$4154ecc0$@classiccmp.org> Contacts have been made to secure disposition of Bill Dawson and Mike Holley's site/contents. As part of that effort, I pointed swtpc.org to what used to be swtpc.com (and also swtpc.org). So if you go to swtpc.org you can traverse both sites. But that is not why I'm posting.. So in doing this and fixing a few links, I noticed there was a lot of pictures and info on "first computer store in..." information, apparently written by Mike Holley and we were just talking about that topic here. Some may want to go hunting for the computer store that was an adult movie place heh J From lproven at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 16:53:38 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 23:53:38 +0200 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Aug 2020 at 18:07, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > After having a run of almost half a dozen IDE hard drive failures recently in > a short period of time (on my older desktops which use them, I've decided that > I should see if there's an IDE emulator (using SD cards) SD (and the related MMC, now obsolete, and the many subtypes of SD such as SDHC, SDIO, SDXC, SDUC etc.) is a complex multiplexed protocol. MMC used 1 pin, original SD used 4, some of the newer ones use 8, etc. But CF card _are_ EIDE. The interface is the IDE interface. Only a conversion of connector is needed, no controller electronics at all. CF cards are an old standard now, but professional photographers still use them, and high-end digital cameras use them -- partly because of the large storage capacity but also, I suspect, because they are easier to handle in a hurry, or in suboptimal conditions. SD cards are too small to manipulate easily wearing gloves, and MicroSD cards can be lost in a decent carpet. So my advice is: don't even consider SD. Use CF. Convertors from CD to 44-pin 2.5" hard disk connector and to 40-pin desktop connector are widespread and very cheap. CF cards with capacities in megabytes are $10 or under. Cards with capacities in low numbers of gigabytes are only a little more. You can get cards in the 256GB range now, for a few hundred bucks. I think you'll find it much easier -- and cheaper -- to interface CF cards to EIDE than any variant of SD, which is probably going to involve multiple convertors and controllers: micro-SD to SD, then maybe to SATA to PATA, and associated points of failure etc. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Aug 28 17:01:18 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 17:01:18 -0500 Subject: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <623C45C3-48D8-47D7-881E-C192D9673B90@snowmoose.com> My collection is primarily sun4c and sun4m machines. I have been having problems with the CD drives that I have been acquiring (purchase or rescue) in the last year or so. 4-5 drives, none worked. It has all been drives in 411 cases or going into them, no failures with internal drives. Haven?t investigated why. > On Aug 28, 2020, at 14:22, Tom Hunter via cctech wrote: > > ?About 20 years ago I rescued a fully working Sun SPARCstation LX with CDROM > and QIC-150 tape drive - all 3 in lunchbox format - plus monitor when we > moved office and management decided they no longer wanted/needed it. > > Shortly after I have installed an early version of NetBSD (1.3.3) from the > CDROM drive. I played with it for a few days and then stored the entire > system in a museum grade glass display cabinet. This is indoors with > minimal dust and benign temperatures between 18 degrees C to about 28 > degrees C (typical room temperatures here in Perth in Western Australia > unless you run the air conditioner). > > > > Now retired I took the stack of "lunch-boxes" and the CRT monitor out of > the display cabinet and powered it up. After 20 years no smoke came out but > the system didn't boot but reported trouble with the NVRAM setting. I still > could start NetBSD using a "boot disk" command. I googled the problem and > bought and installed a replacement TIMEKEEPER chip (M48T08-100). After > defaulting the settings and setting the MAC address and machine ID it was > happy and booted from disk without intervention. In NetBSD I then set the > date and time and all was good. > > > > Then I decided to upgrade to the latest version of the SPARC version of > NetBSD 9.0. I downloaded and burned the ISO image to CD. Dropped it into a > CD caddy and inserted it into the CDROM drive (SUN Model 411 - really a > Sony CDU-8012 3.1e). I did a "probe-scsi-all" and it found both the hard > drive and the CDROM (target 6 unit 0). > > > > Now comes the problem - if it try to run from it via "boot cdrom" it > doesn't even access the CDROM drive - the LED doesn't turn on unlike when > you do the "probe-scsi-all". > > > > The "cdrom" alias is really: "/iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4 > ,8800000/sd at 6,0:d". > > > > The "disk" alias is really: "/iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4,8800000/sd at 3,0" > > > > > The "@3" versus the "@6" are the SCSI IDs of the disk drive versus the > CDROM. I don't know what the trailing bits mean. I tried cdrom aliases from > "sd at 6,0:0" to "sd at 6,0:f" and all report: > > > > Can't read disk label > > Can't open disk label package > > Can't open boot device > > > > The LED doesn't blink even once unless I remove and re-insert the caddy > with the CDROM media or if I do a "probe-scsi" or "probe-scsi-all". > > > > I tried original Sun Solaris 2.4 installation media with the exact same > result/symptoms. > > > > I also tried to access the CDROM from NetBSD using "cat /dev/cd0a" but the > drive's LED didn't blink and I got an obscure error message. > > > > The Boot ROM revision is reported as 2.9. The system was bought about 1985 > or 1986 and has seen very little use. > > > > I searched google without success. Maybe I used the wrong search terms or > the equipment is just getting too old and FAQs have disappeared. > > > > What would cause the CDROM boot problem? > > > > There is a chance that the actual Sony drive died. I partially disassembled > it hoping to find dust stuck on the LASER optics but it was nice and clean. > The positioning and ejection mechanisms work just fine. The whole system > was working before I put it into my relatively dust proof glass display > cabinet. > > > > Thanks and best regards > > Tom Hunter From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Aug 28 17:01:18 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 17:01:18 -0500 Subject: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <623C45C3-48D8-47D7-881E-C192D9673B90@snowmoose.com> My collection is primarily sun4c and sun4m machines. I have been having problems with the CD drives that I have been acquiring (purchase or rescue) in the last year or so. 4-5 drives, none worked. It has all been drives in 411 cases or going into them, no failures with internal drives. Haven?t investigated why. > On Aug 28, 2020, at 14:22, Tom Hunter via cctech wrote: > > ?About 20 years ago I rescued a fully working Sun SPARCstation LX with CDROM > and QIC-150 tape drive - all 3 in lunchbox format - plus monitor when we > moved office and management decided they no longer wanted/needed it. > > Shortly after I have installed an early version of NetBSD (1.3.3) from the > CDROM drive. I played with it for a few days and then stored the entire > system in a museum grade glass display cabinet. This is indoors with > minimal dust and benign temperatures between 18 degrees C to about 28 > degrees C (typical room temperatures here in Perth in Western Australia > unless you run the air conditioner). > > > > Now retired I took the stack of "lunch-boxes" and the CRT monitor out of > the display cabinet and powered it up. After 20 years no smoke came out but > the system didn't boot but reported trouble with the NVRAM setting. I still > could start NetBSD using a "boot disk" command. I googled the problem and > bought and installed a replacement TIMEKEEPER chip (M48T08-100). After > defaulting the settings and setting the MAC address and machine ID it was > happy and booted from disk without intervention. In NetBSD I then set the > date and time and all was good. > > > > Then I decided to upgrade to the latest version of the SPARC version of > NetBSD 9.0. I downloaded and burned the ISO image to CD. Dropped it into a > CD caddy and inserted it into the CDROM drive (SUN Model 411 - really a > Sony CDU-8012 3.1e). I did a "probe-scsi-all" and it found both the hard > drive and the CDROM (target 6 unit 0). > > > > Now comes the problem - if it try to run from it via "boot cdrom" it > doesn't even access the CDROM drive - the LED doesn't turn on unlike when > you do the "probe-scsi-all". > > > > The "cdrom" alias is really: "/iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4 > ,8800000/sd at 6,0:d". > > > > The "disk" alias is really: "/iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4,8800000/sd at 3,0" > > > > > The "@3" versus the "@6" are the SCSI IDs of the disk drive versus the > CDROM. I don't know what the trailing bits mean. I tried cdrom aliases from > "sd at 6,0:0" to "sd at 6,0:f" and all report: > > > > Can't read disk label > > Can't open disk label package > > Can't open boot device > > > > The LED doesn't blink even once unless I remove and re-insert the caddy > with the CDROM media or if I do a "probe-scsi" or "probe-scsi-all". > > > > I tried original Sun Solaris 2.4 installation media with the exact same > result/symptoms. > > > > I also tried to access the CDROM from NetBSD using "cat /dev/cd0a" but the > drive's LED didn't blink and I got an obscure error message. > > > > The Boot ROM revision is reported as 2.9. The system was bought about 1985 > or 1986 and has seen very little use. > > > > I searched google without success. Maybe I used the wrong search terms or > the equipment is just getting too old and FAQs have disappeared. > > > > What would cause the CDROM boot problem? > > > > There is a chance that the actual Sony drive died. I partially disassembled > it hoping to find dust stuck on the LASER optics but it was nice and clean. > The positioning and ejection mechanisms work just fine. The whole system > was working before I put it into my relatively dust proof glass display > cabinet. > > > > Thanks and best regards > > Tom Hunter From bear at typewritten.org Fri Aug 28 20:58:29 2020 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 18:58:29 -0700 Subject: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: <623C45C3-48D8-47D7-881E-C192D9673B90@snowmoose.com> References: <623C45C3-48D8-47D7-881E-C192D9673B90@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Aug 28, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > My collection is primarily sun4c and sun4m machines. I have been having problems with the CD drives that I have been acquiring (purchase or rescue) in the last year or so. 4-5 drives, none worked. It has all been drives in 411 cases or going into them, no failures with internal drives. Haven?t investigated why. 95% likelihood of faulty miniature electrolytics. ok bear. -- until further notice From bear at typewritten.org Fri Aug 28 20:58:29 2020 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 18:58:29 -0700 Subject: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: <623C45C3-48D8-47D7-881E-C192D9673B90@snowmoose.com> References: <623C45C3-48D8-47D7-881E-C192D9673B90@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Aug 28, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > My collection is primarily sun4c and sun4m machines. I have been having problems with the CD drives that I have been acquiring (purchase or rescue) in the last year or so. 4-5 drives, none worked. It has all been drives in 411 cases or going into them, no failures with internal drives. Haven?t investigated why. 95% likelihood of faulty miniature electrolytics. ok bear. -- until further notice From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 28 21:21:09 2020 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 02:21:09 +0000 Subject: IBM professional graphics adapter and monitor Message-ID: Before I ebay buy a monitor, original IBM 5135, will it match the scan rates of the IBM of the IBM Professional Graphics Controller? I wanted to keep this system looking all original IBM. Will I need a different monitor, Princeton or something like that? Your recommendations appreciated. Thanks, Randy From deramp5113 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 28 18:02:05 2020 From: deramp5113 at yahoo.com (Mike Douglas) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 18:02:05 -0500 Subject: michael Holley? References: <10E51AB1-8BA1-44D4-B254-3F26F1ABD854.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10E51AB1-8BA1-44D4-B254-3F26F1ABD854@yahoo.com> ?I archived the entire website in the summer of 2019, shortly before it went offline in the Fall of 2019. When it became clear that SWTPC.COM was not coming back on line, I chose to host the content at https://deramp.com/swtpc.com/ so hobbyists could still have access to the excellent material Michael pulled together. Mike Evenson also hosts a copy of the website at http://www.swtpcemu.com/mholley/. Anything you can do to preserve and host the material at swtpc.* is much appreciated! Mike From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 29 13:31:14 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 11:31:14 -0700 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: <576d1051-90c9-a643-8af3-1157138364dd@froghouse.org> References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> <956ee939-8f54-1645-4098-925070c016d8@froghouse.org> <67d4d595-be15-1459-1685-b73f08bc7363@sydex.com> <576d1051-90c9-a643-8af3-1157138364dd@froghouse.org> Message-ID: On 8/28/20 1:51 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > On 8/28/20 4:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> Plenty of code libraries out there.? Why dink around when silicon is >> cheap?? MCUs are everywhere; in many cases cheaper than discrete logic. > > > Might have been better but I had the FPGA there anyway for other reasons > so I just connected a few pins to the SD card and started writing code. I'll add tangentially that an MCU can not only give you full-4-bit width SDHC access, but also has a lot of extra goodies, such as USB OTG and even ethernet built on. Goven modern MCUs, I don't think I'd even consider using programmable logic for this particular task. --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 29 15:41:11 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 15:41:11 -0500 Subject: michael Holley? In-Reply-To: <10E51AB1-8BA1-44D4-B254-3F26F1ABD854@yahoo.com> References: <10E51AB1-8BA1-44D4-B254-3F26F1ABD854.ref@yahoo.com> <10E51AB1-8BA1-44D4-B254-3F26F1ABD854@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001d67e44$bb3cfae0$31b6f0a0$@classiccmp.org> Mike wrote.... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mike Douglas via cctalk Sent: Friday, August 28, 2020 6:02 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: michael Holley? ?I archived the entire website in the summer of 2019, shortly before it went offline in the Fall of 2019. When it became clear that SWTPC.COM was not coming back on line, I chose to host the content at https://deramp.com/swtpc.com/ so hobbyists could still have access to the excellent material Michael pulled together. Mike Evenson also hosts a copy of the website at http://www.swtpcemu.com/mholley/. Anything you can do to preserve and host the material at swtpc.* is much appreciated! Mike= ------------------------------- I had written: -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwest--- via cctalk Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:03 PM To: 'Peter Corlett'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: swtpc.com expired??? That's one of my IP's. I'm quite doubtful that the content is gone, only that the domain registrant perhaps let it expire? It's safe, please don't rape my bandwidth ? J ---------------------------------- I did say the content was safe so it sure was not clear that it wasn't coming back, and if there was concern it wasn't coming back I could have been contacted as my site was the official owners site. Of course I'm glad it's been "archived and preserved" by others, but not great to see copies unauthorized by the owner and put up by the grace of my bandwidth. J From alan at alanlee.org Sat Aug 29 18:17:02 2020 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 19:17:02 -0400 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <864c80c39315501b7f399e477e2d0eff@alanlee.org> I haven't worked on it in a while due to work commitments. But there is this: https://www.retrotronics.org/netpi-ide/ Though I've recently updated the design to use an iCE40, open toolchain, and changed the form factor to be more of a module. I need another board spin to make more progress and that is searching for time in my schedule to compelte. -Alan On 2020-08-28 12:07, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > After having a run of almost half a dozen IDE hard drive failures > recently in > a short period of time (on my older desktops which use them, I've > decided that > I should see if there's an IDE emulator (using SD cards) available I > could > switch to. (I'm not sure why I had so many failures in such a short > period; I > can only conclude that they're too old now, and reaching the end of > their > service lives. > > So soes anyone have one (or more) they can recommend? (IDE simulators > only; I > don't want to have to mess around changing anything more than I > _absolutely_ > have to)? I did find these guys: > > > http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=74_64 > > in an online search - the CFADPTHD seems like it's close to what I'd > want, > except it's Compact Flash; I'd have preferred SD but I guess converting > their interface to IDE is more work. > > Noel From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 00:23:51 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 13:23:51 +0800 Subject: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: References: <623C45C3-48D8-47D7-881E-C192D9673B90@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: I have now installed an old Adaptec AHA-2940 Ultra SCSI card with micro-SCSI interface in a Windows XP PC. Windows successfully installed the device driver and sees the Sony drive. If I attempt to read from the drive I get a generic I/O error. So it appears that the drives SCSI interface, positioning and eject circuitry is working but there is maybe a problem in the optical circuitry or the LASER optics. Thanks for all the feedback. Tom Hunter On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 9:58 AM r.stricklin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On Aug 28, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > > > My collection is primarily sun4c and sun4m machines. I have been having > problems with the CD drives that I have been acquiring (purchase or rescue) > in the last year or so. 4-5 drives, none worked. It has all been drives in > 411 cases or going into them, no failures with internal drives. Haven?t > investigated why. > > 95% likelihood of faulty miniature electrolytics. > > ok > bear. > > -- > until further notice > > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 00:23:51 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 13:23:51 +0800 Subject: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: References: <623C45C3-48D8-47D7-881E-C192D9673B90@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: I have now installed an old Adaptec AHA-2940 Ultra SCSI card with micro-SCSI interface in a Windows XP PC. Windows successfully installed the device driver and sees the Sony drive. If I attempt to read from the drive I get a generic I/O error. So it appears that the drives SCSI interface, positioning and eject circuitry is working but there is maybe a problem in the optical circuitry or the LASER optics. Thanks for all the feedback. Tom Hunter On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 9:58 AM r.stricklin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On Aug 28, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > > > My collection is primarily sun4c and sun4m machines. I have been having > problems with the CD drives that I have been acquiring (purchase or rescue) > in the last year or so. 4-5 drives, none worked. It has all been drives in > 411 cases or going into them, no failures with internal drives. Haven?t > investigated why. > > 95% likelihood of faulty miniature electrolytics. > > ok > bear. > > -- > until further notice > > From doug at doughq.com Sun Aug 30 00:55:36 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:55:36 +1000 Subject: michael Holley? In-Reply-To: <000001d67e44$bb3cfae0$31b6f0a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <10E51AB1-8BA1-44D4-B254-3F26F1ABD854.ref@yahoo.com> <10E51AB1-8BA1-44D4-B254-3F26F1ABD854@yahoo.com> <000001d67e44$bb3cfae0$31b6f0a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I can't get to the original domain. It certainly looks unregistered. On Sun, 30 Aug. 2020, 6:41 am jwest--- via cctalk, wrote: > Mike wrote.... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mike Douglas > via cctalk > Sent: Friday, August 28, 2020 6:02 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: michael Holley? > > ?I archived the entire website in the summer of 2019, shortly before it > went offline in the Fall of 2019. When it became clear that SWTPC.COM was > not coming back on line, I chose to host the content at > https://deramp.com/swtpc.com/ so hobbyists could still have access to the > excellent material Michael pulled together. Mike Evenson also hosts a copy > of the website at http://www.swtpcemu.com/mholley/. > > Anything you can do to preserve and host the material at swtpc.* is much > appreciated! > > Mike= > ------------------------------- > I had written: > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwest--- > via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:03 PM > To: 'Peter Corlett'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: swtpc.com expired??? > > That's one of my IP's. I'm quite doubtful that the content is gone, only > that the domain registrant perhaps let it expire? > > It's safe, please don't rape my bandwidth ? > > J > ---------------------------------- > > I did say the content was safe so it sure was not clear that it wasn't > coming back, and if there was concern it wasn't coming back I could have > been contacted as my site was the official owners site. Of course I'm glad > it's been "archived and preserved" by others, but not great to see copies > unauthorized by the owner and put up by the grace of my bandwidth. > > J > > > From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 01:23:41 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:23:41 +0200 Subject: IBM 3270 compatible terminal connected to Hercules IBM mainframe emulator. Message-ID: I have been working on a project for some time to connect a IBM3270 compatible Alfaskop terminal with its IBM 3274 compatible cluster controller to the Hercules mainframe emulator. Yesterday I eventually succeeded. I was able to login to TSO on my Hercules system that ran MVS 3.8j. Here are a couple quick video clips: https://youtu.be/H1Sxt7xjn4Y https://youtu.be/CFfB3yCN9OI To achieve this I created a small piece of hardware I called SyncDongle, essentially it's just a few level converters, connectors and a STM32F103 blue pill. On the hardware I run a small piece of firmware, BSCBridge. It bridges between the sync serial BSC used by the Alfaskop cluster controller and the BSC variant that the 2703 emulation inside Hercules is using. More information here: https://github.com/MattisLind/alfaskop_emu and here http://www.datormuseum.se/peripherals/terminals/alfaskop There are good chances that the SyncDongle/BSCBridge combo could work with a 3274 or 3174 controller as well but I haven't tested since I don't have one. But no guarantees given, though. If someone has a spare 3174-51R, -61R, -81R or -91R I would be very interested in it. Actually there is a good chance that it could work with general BSC use. Maybe for NJE between Hercules and a real IBM machine? Or 2780/3780 RJE terminals? Or other third party 3270 terminals using BSC. The BSCBridge firmware only supports non transparent mode at this point, it works fine with Alfaskop since it does not support anything else. Maybe a showstopper for 3174 with 3279 terminals? SHouldn't be that difficult to add transparent mode if needed. /Mattis From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 02:15:49 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:15:49 +0800 Subject: Bitsavers down? Message-ID: What happened to www.bitsavers.org? It has been down for at least the past 24 hours. I can still ping the website, but http requests time out. The bitsaver domain name here in Australia resolves to 208.77.18.144. Thanks Tom Hunter From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 02:21:22 2020 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 02:21:22 -0500 Subject: Bitsavers down? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 30, 2020, 02:16 Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > What happened to www.bitsavers.org? > It has been down for at least the past 24 hours. > I can still ping the website, but http requests time out. > The bitsaver domain name here in Australia resolves to 208.77.18.144 > You may have been hit by an auto-ban. There's been a lot of unusual rsync activity the last couple days and we're trying to block some troublesome IP nets. Email me directly with your IP info. j > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 02:22:16 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:22:16 +0800 Subject: Bitsavers down? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmmm - I just tried a VPN into the US and the bitsavers website is up and running. The IP address is the same, so it is not a DNS issue. Al, is Bitsavers blocking some HTTP access from Australia? Thanks Tom Hunter On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 3:15 PM Tom Hunter wrote: > What happened to www.bitsavers.org? > It has been down for at least the past 24 hours. > I can still ping the website, but http requests time out. > The bitsaver domain name here in Australia resolves to 208.77.18.144. > > Thanks > Tom Hunter > > > From deramp5113 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 29 16:21:30 2020 From: deramp5113 at yahoo.com (Mike Douglas) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 16:21:30 -0500 Subject: michael Holley? References: <5595958D-8AC5-4F39-94F9-32FBDB585145.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5595958D-8AC5-4F39-94F9-32FBDB585145@yahoo.com> Sorry, I did not see your post that there was no concern of losing Michael?s SWTPC content. I simply did not want to see more great material disappear from the internet as our peers age and become unable to maintain their web presence. I?ve seen that happen over and over now. I?ll remove my mirror of Michael?s SWTPC content. You can contact Michael Evenson and let him know his assistance in preserving the content for the benefit of the hobby community is also ?unauthorized.? I presently pay for 150Gb of bandwidth on deramp.com to host material for vintage computing hobbyists. I?m surprised the swtpc.org bandwidth requirements are high enough to be an issue that requires your ?grace? to allow us to view its content. Mike From steven at malikoff.com Sun Aug 30 03:26:53 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:26:53 +1000 Subject: Bitsavers down? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0150f77a3ffc21a1ac7ca4c86cebd20b.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Tom reckoned > Hmmm - I just tried a VPN into the US and the bitsavers website is up and > running. The IP address is the same, so it is not a DNS issue. > Al, is Bitsavers blocking some HTTP access from Australia? > Thanks > Tom Hunter > > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 3:15 PM Tom Hunter wrote: > >> What happened to www.bitsavers.org? >> It has been down for at least the past 24 hours. >> I can still ping the website, but http requests time out. >> The bitsaver domain name here in Australia resolves to 208.77.18.144. >> >> Thanks >> Tom Hunter Same for me, I'm also in Oz and bitsavers.org isn't accessible at the moment. I tried the IP address from nslookup (same as Tom) and got no result either. Tracert reports through to nocarrier.net (same IP as bitsavers) though. Steve. From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 03:53:42 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 16:53:42 +0800 Subject: Bitsavers down? In-Reply-To: <0150f77a3ffc21a1ac7ca4c86cebd20b.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <0150f77a3ffc21a1ac7ca4c86cebd20b.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: It is all good now. Last night I tried to look for some PDP-11 documents and it didn't work. As it didn't work today I thought I better report the problem. Thank you Jason for unblocking us down under. :-) Best regards Tom Hunter On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 4:27 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Tom reckoned > > Hmmm - I just tried a VPN into the US and the bitsavers website is up and > > running. The IP address is the same, so it is not a DNS issue. > > Al, is Bitsavers blocking some HTTP access from Australia? > > Thanks > > Tom Hunter > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 3:15 PM Tom Hunter wrote: > > > >> What happened to www.bitsavers.org? > >> It has been down for at least the past 24 hours. > >> I can still ping the website, but http requests time out. > >> The bitsaver domain name here in Australia resolves to 208.77.18.144. > >> > >> Thanks > >> Tom Hunter > > > Same for me, I'm also in Oz and bitsavers.org isn't accessible at the > moment. > I tried the IP address from nslookup (same as Tom) and got no result > either. > Tracert reports through to nocarrier.net (same IP as bitsavers) though. > > Steve. > > > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 05:39:50 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:39:50 +0800 Subject: michael Holley? In-Reply-To: <000001d67e44$bb3cfae0$31b6f0a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <10E51AB1-8BA1-44D4-B254-3F26F1ABD854.ref@yahoo.com> <10E51AB1-8BA1-44D4-B254-3F26F1ABD854@yahoo.com> <000001d67e44$bb3cfae0$31b6f0a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I cannot see where the problem is. Thank you Mike Douglas for taking the initiative and mirroring the website! I appreciate it and everything else you are doing. Mike Douglas and Mike Evenson please keep the mirrored content up and running. If J's "grace of bandwidth" is reduced by having an alternate source for the material accumulated by Michael Holley so what harm is done to anyone? J there is more bandwidth for your other stuff. Be happy. Don't start fights among friends. Lets stick together. There is enough nonsense happening in this world already. The "swtpc.com" domain registration is still active but it doesn't point to any IP address. The registration expires on 2021-10-31. So J if that is your domain please update the domain registration so that it points to the material. Peace. Thank you all! Tom Hunter On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 10:40 AM jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > Mike wrote.... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mike Douglas > via cctalk > Sent: Friday, August 28, 2020 6:02 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: michael Holley? > > ?I archived the entire website in the summer of 2019, shortly before it > went offline in the Fall of 2019. When it became clear that SWTPC.COM was > not coming back on line, I chose to host the content at > https://deramp.com/swtpc.com/ so hobbyists could still have access to the > excellent material Michael pulled together. Mike Evenson also hosts a copy > of the website at http://www.swtpcemu.com/mholley/. > > Anything you can do to preserve and host the material at swtpc.* is much > appreciated! > > Mike= > ------------------------------- > I had written: > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwest--- > via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:03 PM > To: 'Peter Corlett'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: swtpc.com expired??? > > That's one of my IP's. I'm quite doubtful that the content is gone, only > that the domain registrant perhaps let it expire? > > It's safe, please don't rape my bandwidth ? > > J > ---------------------------------- > > I did say the content was safe so it sure was not clear that it wasn't > coming back, and if there was concern it wasn't coming back I could have > been contacted as my site was the official owners site. Of course I'm glad > it's been "archived and preserved" by others, but not great to see copies > unauthorized by the owner and put up by the grace of my bandwidth. > > J > > > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 08:32:58 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 21:32:58 +0800 Subject: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: References: <623C45C3-48D8-47D7-881E-C192D9673B90@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: I removed the PCB off the CDROM drive and on closer inspection noticed a region of substantial corrosion of solder joints on the component side. About 70% of the PCB had solder joints that were nice and shiny like brand new. The remaining section near the front of the drive was quite badly corroded and it also looked like there was some liquid spilled over that section of the PCB (component side). When I tried to re-solder a few of the worst affected components they just fell off and the copper track below them was gone. When heating the solder joint the solder wouldn't melt it was just pure led & tin oxide. Interestingly as I heated the solder joint there was a faint smell like rat urine. I now wonder if 25+ years ago during production of the CDROM at the Sony factory some rodent relieved itself over one or more PCBs and next morning the PCB got assembled into a CDROM drive. It worked for a few years before I put it away in my display cabinet. Slowly over the next 20 years the uric acid corroded solder and tracks. This could not have happened after the assembly because of the small opening in the unit where the caddy is inserted and also because the component side is facing down. Anyway this is the sad end of my Sun CDROM drive. :-( Tom Hunter On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 1:23 PM Tom Hunter wrote: > I have now installed an old Adaptec AHA-2940 Ultra SCSI card with > micro-SCSI interface in a Windows XP PC. Windows successfully installed the > device driver and sees the Sony drive. If I attempt to read from the drive > I get a generic I/O error. > So it appears that the drives SCSI interface, positioning and eject > circuitry is working but there is maybe a problem in the optical circuitry > or the LASER optics. > Thanks for all the feedback. > Tom Hunter > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 9:58 AM r.stricklin via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> On Aug 28, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: >> >> > My collection is primarily sun4c and sun4m machines. I have been having >> problems with the CD drives that I have been acquiring (purchase or rescue) >> in the last year or so. 4-5 drives, none worked. It has all been drives in >> 411 cases or going into them, no failures with internal drives. Haven?t >> investigated why. >> >> 95% likelihood of faulty miniature electrolytics. >> >> ok >> bear. >> >> -- >> until further notice >> >> From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 08:32:58 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 21:32:58 +0800 Subject: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: References: <623C45C3-48D8-47D7-881E-C192D9673B90@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: I removed the PCB off the CDROM drive and on closer inspection noticed a region of substantial corrosion of solder joints on the component side. About 70% of the PCB had solder joints that were nice and shiny like brand new. The remaining section near the front of the drive was quite badly corroded and it also looked like there was some liquid spilled over that section of the PCB (component side). When I tried to re-solder a few of the worst affected components they just fell off and the copper track below them was gone. When heating the solder joint the solder wouldn't melt it was just pure led & tin oxide. Interestingly as I heated the solder joint there was a faint smell like rat urine. I now wonder if 25+ years ago during production of the CDROM at the Sony factory some rodent relieved itself over one or more PCBs and next morning the PCB got assembled into a CDROM drive. It worked for a few years before I put it away in my display cabinet. Slowly over the next 20 years the uric acid corroded solder and tracks. This could not have happened after the assembly because of the small opening in the unit where the caddy is inserted and also because the component side is facing down. Anyway this is the sad end of my Sun CDROM drive. :-( Tom Hunter On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 1:23 PM Tom Hunter wrote: > I have now installed an old Adaptec AHA-2940 Ultra SCSI card with > micro-SCSI interface in a Windows XP PC. Windows successfully installed the > device driver and sees the Sony drive. If I attempt to read from the drive > I get a generic I/O error. > So it appears that the drives SCSI interface, positioning and eject > circuitry is working but there is maybe a problem in the optical circuitry > or the LASER optics. > Thanks for all the feedback. > Tom Hunter > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 9:58 AM r.stricklin via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> On Aug 28, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: >> >> > My collection is primarily sun4c and sun4m machines. I have been having >> problems with the CD drives that I have been acquiring (purchase or rescue) >> in the last year or so. 4-5 drives, none worked. It has all been drives in >> 411 cases or going into them, no failures with internal drives. Haven?t >> investigated why. >> >> 95% likelihood of faulty miniature electrolytics. >> >> ok >> bear. >> >> -- >> until further notice >> >> From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 11:02:50 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 11:02:50 -0500 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 8/28/20 12:40 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Also, I discovered recently that there is a maximum number of hours > measured in years on SSDs and systems will start throwing SMART > errors when that is exceeded. I have a few doing that now on systems > with minimal writes but lots of hours. > > There are long discussions elsewhere of the dangers of using non-industrial > rated CFs and SDs in storage applications. I found it next to impossible to find information on what - if any - technology a particular SSD uses to extend lifespan; while manufacturers all compete on things like capacity and speed, very few of them seem interested in telling us how long their product might last. From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Aug 30 12:26:04 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 11:26:04 -0600 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 30, 2020, 10:03 AM Jules Richardson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 8/28/20 12:40 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Also, I discovered recently that there is a maximum number of hours > > measured in years on SSDs and systems will start throwing SMART > > errors when that is exceeded. I have a few doing that now on systems > > with minimal writes but lots of hours. > > > > There are long discussions elsewhere of the dangers of using > non-industrial > > rated CFs and SDs in storage applications. > > I found it next to impossible to find information on what - if any - > technology a particular SSD uses to extend lifespan; while manufacturers > all compete on things like capacity and speed, very few of them seem > interested in telling us how long their product might last. > Most SATA and NVMe SSDs have a PBW or DWPD number that gives you an indication of how long it will last. These numbers are usually normalized to a JEDEC workload. From that you can often extrapolate to your workload if you know it well enough... It is one of the things I evaluate for Netflix's CDN.... SD and CF cards almost never do unless they claim industrial use. Ditto USB sticks, but with more industrial models available. Warner > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sun Aug 30 12:38:20 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 19:38:20 +0200 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20200830173820.GA24554@mooli.org.uk> On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 11:02:50AM -0500, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: [...] > I found it next to impossible to find information on what - if any - > technology a particular SSD uses to extend lifespan; while manufacturers all > compete on things like capacity and speed, very few of them seem interested > in telling us how long their product might last. The warranty duration is a good starting point. If it's the absolute legal minimum (i.e. two years in the EU) then that tells you all you need to know. From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 15:57:41 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 16:57:41 -0400 Subject: Looking for an IDE simulator In-Reply-To: <20200830173820.GA24554@mooli.org.uk> References: <20200828160705.5D9A418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <989d49da-db2b-dd83-4a7b-d258341baf4d@froghouse.org> <6E11E6BD-4E7F-4A43-90E5-9A39099D5CDD@comcast.net> <20200830173820.GA24554@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: Technology wise, there is an inherent limitation on the number or writes with the SSD design. While it is not as simple to calculate as a mechanical system, it does have a limitation. I don't know the exact number with the current technology, earlier products had write life times in the tens and hundred of millions of writes. bb On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 1:38 PM Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 11:02:50AM -0500, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > [...] > > I found it next to impossible to find information on what - if any - > > technology a particular SSD uses to extend lifespan; while manufacturers all > > compete on things like capacity and speed, very few of them seem interested > > in telling us how long their product might last. > > The warranty duration is a good starting point. If it's the absolute legal > minimum (i.e. two years in the EU) then that tells you all you need to know. > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Aug 31 17:55:01 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 23:55:01 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Spam Message-ID: <01RP3YQBF9PY8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> Anybody else on cctech/cctalk receive a blatant spam today from an outfit called "SparkPost" with "OptIn Live" in the subject? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From mazzinia at tin.it Mon Aug 31 18:32:53 2020 From: mazzinia at tin.it (mazzinia at tin.it) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 01:32:53 +0200 Subject: Spam In-Reply-To: <01RP3YQBF9PY8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RP3YQBF9PY8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <04bc01d67fef$0d39ee60$27adcb20$@tin.it> Not me -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan via cctalk Sent: 01 September 2020 00:55 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Spam Anybody else on cctech/cctalk receive a blatant spam today from an outfit called "SparkPost" with "OptIn Live" in the subject? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From doug at doughq.com Mon Aug 31 18:37:55 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 09:37:55 +1000 Subject: Spam In-Reply-To: <04bc01d67fef$0d39ee60$27adcb20$@tin.it> References: <01RP3YQBF9PY8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> <04bc01d67fef$0d39ee60$27adcb20$@tin.it> Message-ID: Not me either, But I pass all of my email through gmail, and it filters out all of the spam for me anyway. A couple of years ago, some helpful person selected my email for sending millions of messages and it broke my email environment, the only way I could get it working again was to either abandon my email, or use gmail for everything. instant, clean email feed. Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 9:33 AM mazzinia--- via cctalk wrote: > Not me > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan > via > cctalk > Sent: 01 September 2020 00:55 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Spam > > Anybody else on cctech/cctalk receive a blatant spam today from an outfit > called "SparkPost" with "OptIn Live" in the subject? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 18:42:27 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 19:42:27 -0400 Subject: Spam In-Reply-To: References: <01RP3YQBF9PY8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> <04bc01d67fef$0d39ee60$27adcb20$@tin.it> Message-ID: Gmail flags a lot of messages from cctalk/tech as spam but I did not get that one On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 7:38 PM Doug Jackson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Not me either, > > But I pass all of my email through gmail, and it filters out all of the > spam for me anyway. > > A couple of years ago, some helpful person selected my email for sending > millions of messages and it broke my email environment, the only way I > could get it working again was to either abandon my email, or use gmail for > everything. > > instant, clean email feed. > > Kindest regards, > > Doug Jackson > > em: doug at doughq.com > ph: 0414 986878 > > Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com > Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted > with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for > your own use. > > Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have > been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. > > Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the > imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or > moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the > result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which > case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal > liability. :-) > > Be nice to your parents. > > Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a > radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you > happy. > > ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally > sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G > > > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 9:33 AM mazzinia--- via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Not me > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan > > via > > cctalk > > Sent: 01 September 2020 00:55 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Spam > > > > Anybody else on cctech/cctalk receive a blatant spam today from an outfit > > called "SparkPost" with "OptIn Live" in the subject? > > > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan. > > > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Aug 31 18:56:39 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 19:56:39 -0400 Subject: Spam In-Reply-To: <01RP3YQBF9PY8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RP3YQBF9PY8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <12D28433-2C9E-4EC3-AA97-4BF92ACC9EE8@comcast.net> > On Aug 31, 2020, at 6:55 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > Anybody else on cctech/cctalk receive a blatant spam today from an outfit > called "SparkPost" with "OptIn Live" in the subject? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. Nope. Keep in mind that criminals often forge source addresses. So while it may say it came from cctalk, it doesn't mean it actually did. Looking at the full headers will often tell you, if you care to go to the trouble. For example, I get spam every few weeks claiming to be from one specific person on the list here, but it never actually is from that address. paul From connork at connorsdomain.com Mon Aug 31 18:58:23 2020 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 19:58:23 -0400 Subject: IBM 3270 compatible terminal connected to Hercules IBM mainframe emulator. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow Mattis this looks great, fantastic work! I will see if I can solder up a unit from what you have up on github on a perf board (I should have a few bluepills kicking around) and see if I can assist in some way with testing on a 3174-61R I have. Unfortunately its the only one I have and I have a few 3270 terminals so I would like to keep it in my ownership. But they definitely do show up, a lot more often than it seems the terminals do nowadays. I have the Ethernet controllers for my 3174-R61 which I know people generally use for communications with things like Hercules but as those are much less common it would be nice to see if we can verify this works on these terminal controllers and make using 3270 terminals with Hercules more accessible to people! If you'd like me to work with you on testing this let me know. I'll definitely see if I can try it out myself anyway. Either way, fantastic work and thanks for putting everything up on github! -Connor K On 8/30/2020 02:23, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > I have been working on a project for some time to connect a IBM3270 > compatible Alfaskop terminal with its IBM 3274 compatible cluster > controller to the Hercules mainframe emulator. > > Yesterday I eventually succeeded. I was able to login to TSO on my Hercules > system that ran MVS 3.8j. > > Here are a couple quick video clips: > > https://youtu.be/H1Sxt7xjn4Y > > https://youtu.be/CFfB3yCN9OI > > To achieve this I created a small piece of hardware I called SyncDongle, > essentially it's just a few level converters, connectors and a STM32F103 > blue pill. > > On the hardware I run a small piece of firmware, BSCBridge. It bridges > between the sync serial BSC used by the Alfaskop cluster controller and the > BSC variant that the 2703 emulation inside Hercules is using. > > More information here: https://github.com/MattisLind/alfaskop_emu > and here http://www.datormuseum.se/peripherals/terminals/alfaskop > > There are good chances that the SyncDongle/BSCBridge combo could work with > a 3274 or 3174 controller as well but I haven't tested since I don't have > one. But no guarantees given, though. If someone has a spare 3174-51R, > -61R, -81R or -91R I would be very interested in it. > > Actually there is a good chance that it could work with general BSC use. > Maybe for NJE between Hercules and a real IBM machine? Or 2780/3780 RJE > terminals? Or other third party 3270 terminals using BSC. > > The BSCBridge firmware only supports non transparent mode at this point, it > works fine with Alfaskop since it does not support anything else. Maybe a > showstopper for 3174 with 3279 terminals? SHouldn't be that difficult to > add transparent mode if needed. > > /Mattis From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Aug 31 19:28:06 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 20:28:06 -0400 Subject: Spam In-Reply-To: References: <01RP3YQBF9PY8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> <04bc01d67fef$0d39ee60$27adcb20$@tin.it> Message-ID: <13b08b29-9349-ccca-ff30-5b48ab7d1218@alembic.crystel.com> Yeah, I run spf and DKIM on the crystel.com domain here, I'm not giving up my personal bit of string to give google control of my mail. SPF has helped a lot to be honest, every once in awhile I get a surge of reports from the big guys and I know someone's trying to spoof my From: Annoying, but we built email to do this because it was a lot more efficient to be polite. Pity people are jerks. C On 8/31/2020 7:37 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Not me either, > > But I pass all of my email through gmail, and it filters out all of the > spam for me anyway. > > A couple of years ago, some helpful person selected my email for sending > millions of messages and it broke my email environment, the only way I > could get it working again was to either abandon my email, or use gmail for > everything. > > instant, clean email feed. > > Kindest regards, > > Doug Jackson > > em: doug at doughq.com > ph: 0414 986878 > > Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com > Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted > with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for > your own use. > > Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have > been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. > > Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the > imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or > moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the > result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which > case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal > liability. :-) > > Be nice to your parents. > > Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a > radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you > happy. > > ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally > sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G > > > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 9:33 AM mazzinia--- via cctalk > wrote: > >> Not me >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan >> via >> cctalk >> Sent: 01 September 2020 00:55 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Spam >> >> Anybody else on cctech/cctalk receive a blatant spam today from an outfit >> called "SparkPost" with "OptIn Live" in the subject? >> >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan. >> >> From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Aug 31 19:38:40 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 17:38:40 -0700 Subject: Spam In-Reply-To: <01RP3YQBF9PY8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RP3YQBF9PY8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <35af657c-ca1a-7db5-ad8b-4131f1ff65cb@jwsss.com> On 8/31/2020 3:55 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > Anybody else on cctech/cctalk receive a blatant spam today from an outfit > called "SparkPost" with "OptIn Live" in the subject? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > i've found that someone who has had their emails in someones inbox may get their emails harvested and added to spam lists. I've got some past members here who still send spam. Unfortunately since we want to respond directly thru this to users, the email addresses are in the email messages.? If a spam creating exploit is through, it will pluck off the sender's email, which is the reply-to address. It may have nothing to do with the list or any user you can determine, but sometimes? it does. Thanks JIm From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Aug 31 20:21:53 2020 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 18:21:53 -0700 Subject: Factory Rodent Urine, was Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: References: <623C45C3-48D8-47D7-881E-C192D9673B90@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 8/30/20 6:32 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I now wonder if 25+ years ago during production of the CDROM at the Sony > factory some rodent relieved itself over one or more PCBs and next morning > the PCB got assembled into a CDROM drive. I've heard of "factory rust" and "factory oil leaks," but never before have I run across the concept of "factory rodent urine..." From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 20:27:17 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 21:27:17 -0400 Subject: Factory Rodent Urine, was Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: References: <623C45C3-48D8-47D7-881E-C192D9673B90@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 9:22 PM Steven M Jones via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 8/30/20 6:32 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > I now wonder if 25+ years ago during production of the CDROM at the Sony > > factory some rodent relieved itself over one or more PCBs and next > morning > > the PCB got assembled into a CDROM drive. > > I've heard of "factory rust" and "factory oil leaks," but never before > have I run across the concept of "factory rodent urine..." > > Scientific name: rattus factorus b From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 31 21:11:10 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 19:11:10 -0700 Subject: Factory Rodent Urine, was Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: References: <623C45C3-48D8-47D7-881E-C192D9673B90@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 8/31/20 6:21 PM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: > On 8/30/20 6:32 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >> I now wonder if 25+ years ago during production of the CDROM at the Sony >> factory some rodent relieved itself over one or more PCBs and next >> morning >> the PCB got assembled into a CDROM drive. > > I've heard of "factory rust" and "factory oil leaks," but never before > have I run across the concept of "factory rodent urine..." Wait'll you get one where several generations of mice have raised their young. It ain't just pee... --Chuck From ccth6600 at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 21:25:04 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 10:25:04 +0800 Subject: Factory Rodent Urine, was Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: References: <623C45C3-48D8-47D7-881E-C192D9673B90@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Not funny if your prized treasures fall victim to it. :-( On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 10:11 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 8/31/20 6:21 PM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: > > On 8/30/20 6:32 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > >> I now wonder if 25+ years ago during production of the CDROM at the Sony > >> factory some rodent relieved itself over one or more PCBs and next > >> morning > >> the PCB got assembled into a CDROM drive. > > > > I've heard of "factory rust" and "factory oil leaks," but never before > > have I run across the concept of "factory rodent urine..." > > Wait'll you get one where several generations of mice have raised their > young. It ain't just pee... > > --Chuck > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 21:28:01 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 10:28:01 +0800 Subject: Spam In-Reply-To: <35af657c-ca1a-7db5-ad8b-4131f1ff65cb@jwsss.com> References: <01RP3YQBF9PY8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> <35af657c-ca1a-7db5-ad8b-4131f1ff65cb@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Today I received two empty emails from Bill Degnan via this list. No subject and no message body. Googled put them into the Spam folder. Tom Hunter On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:38 AM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 8/31/2020 3:55 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > Anybody else on cctech/cctalk receive a blatant spam today from an outfit > > called "SparkPost" with "OptIn Live" in the subject? > > > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan. > > > i've found that someone who has had their emails in someones inbox may > get their emails harvested and added to spam lists. > > I've got some past members here who still send spam. > > Unfortunately since we want to respond directly thru this to users, the > email addresses are in the email messages. If a spam creating exploit > is through, it will pluck off the sender's email, which is the reply-to > address. > > It may have nothing to do with the list or any user you can determine, > but sometimes it does. > > Thanks > JIm > From doug at doughq.com Mon Aug 31 21:51:09 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 12:51:09 +1000 Subject: Factory Rodent Urine, was Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: References: <623C45C3-48D8-47D7-881E-C192D9673B90@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Not fun at all - :-( Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 12:25 PM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Not funny if your prized treasures fall victim to it. > > :-( > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 10:11 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 8/31/20 6:21 PM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: > > > On 8/30/20 6:32 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > >> I now wonder if 25+ years ago during production of the CDROM at the > Sony > > >> factory some rodent relieved itself over one or more PCBs and next > > >> morning > > >> the PCB got assembled into a CDROM drive. > > > > > > I've heard of "factory rust" and "factory oil leaks," but never before > > > have I run across the concept of "factory rodent urine..." > > > > Wait'll you get one where several generations of mice have raised their > > young. It ain't just pee... > > > > --Chuck > > >