From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed Apr  1 02:08:18 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 08:08:18 +0100
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
Message-ID: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>

I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000 VLC.
It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model 60,
but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The part
number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it works in.
Can anyone tell me where to find out?

 

Thanks

 

Rob


From linimon at lonesome.com  Wed Apr  1 04:26:28 2020
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:26:28 +0000
Subject: REL APL-11
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR22MB0878A38D4E937262089BC2A9EDC80@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.3.1585587600.23900.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <C0153B84-5D79-4382-B2E0-A9164F45D2B5@MatlockFamily.com>
 <1a944308-24e3-7f08-73c0-32091dcebe60@thereinhardts.org>
 <CAC20j8TJ+mCYGO2Pf4f-u6Gj36ytfsFPocb+SGAqoS1bEVQJLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3caaf0f0-ab62-ff04-688f-21f73924e008@thereinhardts.org>
 <CAC20j8QOCBmNAfnTSw2FZf2J_3SxMx-itdDLL6uhyZBeZwmsLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878A38D4E937262089BC2A9EDC80@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <20200401092627.GA4875@lonesome.com>

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 08:33:45AM -0400, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> Like any other language, APL is only obfuscated to those who never
> learned to understand it.

I was required to take it at Rice University circa 1974.  I got quite
good at it.

A week later, I had *no* idea what the code that I had written did.

mcl

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Apr  1 08:26:48 2020
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:26:48 -0400
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <44C4CEE8-F9BD-48AB-80B1-A7FF6070AB8C@comcast.net>

Does it have an Mxxxx number on the handle?  Those shows up in the option-module list, but 2-5-2 part numbers don't.

	paul

> On Apr 1, 2020, at 3:08 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000 VLC.
> It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model 60,
> but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The part
> number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it works in.
> Can anyone tell me where to find out?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Rob
> 


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed Apr  1 08:42:22 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 14:42:22 +0100
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <44C4CEE8-F9BD-48AB-80B1-A7FF6070AB8C@comcast.net>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
 <44C4CEE8-F9BD-48AB-80B1-A7FF6070AB8C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <00a201d6082b$5f4dabb0$1de90310$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
> Sent: 01 April 2020 14:27
> To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>;
General
> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
> 
> Does it have an Mxxxx number on the handle?  Those shows up in the option-
> module list, but 2-5-2 part numbers don't.
> 


Unfortunately not.

Regards

Rob

> 	paul
> 
> > On Apr 1, 2020, at 3:08 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000
VLC.
> > It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model
> > 60, but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The
> > part number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it
> works in.
> > Can anyone tell me where to find out?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > Rob
> >


From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 08:48:16 2020
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 15:48:16 +0200
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE1h0aZZDmk2HaPMAh=HFh5dBEPCH5xgj4kDB5W=sdsYw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 09:08, Rob Jarratt via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000 VLC.
> It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model 60,
> but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The part
> number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it works in.
> Can anyone tell me where to find out?

Your posts are reminding me that I must set up and test my 3 (!)
4000VLCs. I really regret giving away my 4000/60 now. It's lost
somewhere inside Red Hat Farnborough. :'(

I think the 4000VLC takes 80ns FP-mode DRAM with parity.

Something like this:
https://www.itechdevices.co.uk/ms40-ba-hp-64mb-ecc-mem-4-x-16mb-simms.html
(N.B. I think they don't know the difference between parity RAM and ECC RAM.)

Can you give us as much identifying info on your DIMMs as you've got?
Pictures on IMGUR or something would be helpful so long as they are
high-enough resolution to read the text.
-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed Apr  1 09:11:41 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 15:11:41 +0100
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCE1h0aZZDmk2HaPMAh=HFh5dBEPCH5xgj4kDB5W=sdsYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCE1h0aZZDmk2HaPMAh=HFh5dBEPCH5xgj4kDB5W=sdsYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a301d6082f$7751e830$65f5b890$@ntlworld.com>

This is the listing: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VIntage-DEC-VS4000-memory-SIMM-50-19464-02/223624600040

Regards

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Liam Proven via
> cctalk
> Sent: 01 April 2020 14:48
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
> 
> On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 09:08, Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000 VLC.
> > It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model
> > 60, but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The
> > part number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it
> works in.
> > Can anyone tell me where to find out?
> 
> Your posts are reminding me that I must set up and test my 3 (!) 4000VLCs. I
> really regret giving away my 4000/60 now. It's lost somewhere inside Red Hat
> Farnborough. :'(
> 
> I think the 4000VLC takes 80ns FP-mode DRAM with parity.
> 
> Something like this:
> https://www.itechdevices.co.uk/ms40-ba-hp-64mb-ecc-mem-4-x-16mb-
> simms.html
> (N.B. I think they don't know the difference between parity RAM and ECC
> RAM.)
> 
> Can you give us as much identifying info on your DIMMs as you've got?
> Pictures on IMGUR or something would be helpful so long as they are high-
> enough resolution to read the text.
> --
> Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
> Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
> UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053


From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 09:39:17 2020
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 16:39:17 +0200
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <00a301d6082f$7751e830$65f5b890$@ntlworld.com>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCE1h0aZZDmk2HaPMAh=HFh5dBEPCH5xgj4kDB5W=sdsYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301d6082f$7751e830$65f5b890$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGC1tpLRz7rwfZhAHNkTJwnWa3aZMCZ03x+PdYzzbu5+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 16:13, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> This is the listing: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VIntage-DEC-VS4000-memory-SIMM-50-19464-02/223624600040

That is... not very informative. :-(

I also note that the listing just says VS4000 and does not specify a model.

It could be one of 5 different models, all of different speeds: a
4000/60, 90, 90A, 96 or VLC.

Could you just put the DIMM onto a flatbed scanner or something?

The -12 on the chip part number implies 120ns RAM to me. That is slow
by modern standards -- before EDO came in, PCs tended to take 70ns,
80ns was slow and 60ns was fast. 120ns would be quick enough for a
4000/60 or 4000/90, marginal for a 4000/90a and too slow for a VLC or
4000/96.

Speeds from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAXstation#VAXstation_4000_Model_VLC

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From macro at linux-mips.org  Wed Apr  1 10:24:10 2020
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 16:24:10 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGC1tpLRz7rwfZhAHNkTJwnWa3aZMCZ03x+PdYzzbu5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCE1h0aZZDmk2HaPMAh=HFh5dBEPCH5xgj4kDB5W=sdsYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301d6082f$7751e830$65f5b890$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCGC1tpLRz7rwfZhAHNkTJwnWa3aZMCZ03x+PdYzzbu5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004011612160.4156324@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:

> The -12 on the chip part number implies 120ns RAM to me. That is slow
> by modern standards -- before EDO came in, PCs tended to take 70ns,
> 80ns was slow and 60ns was fast. 120ns would be quick enough for a
> 4000/60 or 4000/90, marginal for a 4000/90a and too slow for a VLC or
> 4000/96.

 Also the Mitsubishi 41000 is a 1-Mibit part, so the module is 1MiB (or 
2MiB if double-sided).  So you just need to figure out which DEC systems 
used such SIMMs.  If 2MiB, then DECstation 2100/3100 might be a candidate 
and these would be MS01-AA, also working with DECstation 5000/1xx and 
Personal DECstation 5000/xx systems (and probably some VAX machines too).

 BTW, nice talk at FOSDEM 2020, I was there. :)

  Maciej

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 10:27:27 2020
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 17:27:27 +0200
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004011612160.4156324@eddie.linux-mips.org>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCE1h0aZZDmk2HaPMAh=HFh5dBEPCH5xgj4kDB5W=sdsYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301d6082f$7751e830$65f5b890$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCGC1tpLRz7rwfZhAHNkTJwnWa3aZMCZ03x+PdYzzbu5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004011612160.4156324@eddie.linux-mips.org>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEgbtywaH7c48PaS04+YHpK1OejDbt1taK7+=MomL-PBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 17:24, Maciej W. Rozycki <macro at linux-mips.org> wrote:
>
>  BTW, nice talk at FOSDEM 2020, I was there. :)

Oh wow! Thank you!

*Blushes* :-)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Wed Apr  1 10:31:30 2020
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 16:31:30 +0100
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGC1tpLRz7rwfZhAHNkTJwnWa3aZMCZ03x+PdYzzbu5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCE1h0aZZDmk2HaPMAh=HFh5dBEPCH5xgj4kDB5W=sdsYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301d6082f$7751e830$65f5b890$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCGC1tpLRz7rwfZhAHNkTJwnWa3aZMCZ03x+PdYzzbu5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7b7199b0-21db-0cc0-2a85-f8685ac0ca4d@ntlworld.com>


> On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 16:13, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> This is the listing: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VIntage-DEC-VS4000-memory-SIMM-50-19464-02/223624600040


My VLC has a number of memory modules but they do not have any DEC part 
number on them at all.

The board has "PC72N-9GG" and "JAPAN MH1M36ADJ-8" printed on it.

One side has 8 chips each marked M5M44400AJ 221SK1K-7. Note that unlike 
the photo, there is no "horizontal" chip in the middle.

The other side has four chips each marked M5M41000BJ 224GE04-8. (I think 
it's four ... I've just put the machine back :-))


A nearby DECdirect has:

MS40-BA: VLC 8MB upgrade

MS44L-BA: VS4000-60 8MB upgrade

MS44-DA: VS4000-60 32MB upgrade

MS44L-BC: VS4000-90 16MB upgrade

MS44-DC: VS4000-90 64MB upgrade


So even that doesn't help (since you really want the 2-5-2 part number, 
as that's what you'll usually find on the module).


I did have a quick hunt on the net for IPBs for any of these systems, 
but with no luck. manx shows a few service manuals but they had the MS4x 
numbers.


Antonio


-- 
Antonio Carlini
antonio at acarlini.com


From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Apr  1 10:31:44 2020
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 10:31:44 -0500
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <5E84B3E0.1020601@pico-systems.com>

On 04/01/2020 02:08 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000 VLC.
> It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model 60,
> but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The part
> number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it works in.
> Can anyone tell me where to find out?
>
Is it possible the board is defective?  Does it have 
tantalum capacitors?  A VERY well-known failure
mechanism of these is that they will work fine for years, 
but if left unpowered for about two years, they will fail to 
a shorted condition when powered on again.

In surface mount style, they will be little yellowish blocks 
with a bar engraved or printed on one end.
Locating the one or two bad ones is an exercise in major 
frustration!

Jon

From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Wed Apr  1 11:16:15 2020
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 12:16:15 -0400
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGC1tpLRz7rwfZhAHNkTJwnWa3aZMCZ03x+PdYzzbu5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCE1h0aZZDmk2HaPMAh=HFh5dBEPCH5xgj4kDB5W=sdsYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301d6082f$7751e830$65f5b890$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCGC1tpLRz7rwfZhAHNkTJwnWa3aZMCZ03x+PdYzzbu5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6752027d-3644-9ad1-fb1a-1fb860a467a2@ieee.org>

I have a copy of the DECDirect catalog dating back to somewhere in the 
90's, and it runs under W98 on a VM under SuSE!

I search for the 2-5-2 part number with no results, although it has 
MS01,MS02, MD42, and MS-62.

I used to have a cross reference to 2-5-2 numbers somewhere and if I 
find it I will have another try.,

Sorry!

Nigel


On 01/04/2020 10:39, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 16:13, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> This is the listing: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VIntage-DEC-VS4000-memory-SIMM-50-19464-02/223624600040
> That is... not very informative. :-(
>
> I also note that the listing just says VS4000 and does not specify a model.
>
> It could be one of 5 different models, all of different speeds: a
> 4000/60, 90, 90A, 96 or VLC.
>
> Could you just put the DIMM onto a flatbed scanner or something?
>
> The -12 on the chip part number implies 120ns RAM to me. That is slow
> by modern standards -- before EDO came in, PCs tended to take 70ns,
> 80ns was slow and 60ns was fast. 120ns would be quick enough for a
> 4000/60 or 4000/90, marginal for a 4000/90a and too slow for a VLC or
> 4000/96.
>
> Speeds from:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAXstation#VAXstation_4000_Model_VLC
>
  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From macro at linux-mips.org  Wed Apr  1 11:23:20 2020
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 17:23:20 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <7b7199b0-21db-0cc0-2a85-f8685ac0ca4d@ntlworld.com>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCE1h0aZZDmk2HaPMAh=HFh5dBEPCH5xgj4kDB5W=sdsYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301d6082f$7751e830$65f5b890$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCGC1tpLRz7rwfZhAHNkTJwnWa3aZMCZ03x+PdYzzbu5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <7b7199b0-21db-0cc0-2a85-f8685ac0ca4d@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004011702370.4156324@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:

> I did have a quick hunt on the net for IPBs for any of these systems, but with
> no luck. manx shows a few service manuals but they had the MS4x numbers.

 The look does match MS01-AA though as shown in Figure 5-9 on page 5-16 of 
"DECstation 5000 Model 100 Series Maintenance Guide", EK-PM32G-MG-003 (aka 
pm32gmg3.pdf).  OTOH a single module from an MS01-AA pair is listed as FRU 
57-30735-02 there, so it may not be compatible after all.

 I have several of MS01-AA modules, but all in remote locations, so I 
won't be able to check them anytime soon (given the current situation).

  Maciej

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed Apr  1 13:24:36 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 19:24:36 +0100
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <5E84B3E0.1020601@pico-systems.com>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
 <5E84B3E0.1020601@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <00cc01d60852$cd6706b0$68351410$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com>
> Sent: 01 April 2020 16:32
> To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General
> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
> 
> On 04/01/2020 02:08 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> > I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000
VLC.
> > It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model
> > 60, but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The
> > part number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it
> works in.
> > Can anyone tell me where to find out?
> >
> Is it possible the board is defective?  Does it have tantalum capacitors?
A VERY
> well-known failure mechanism of these is that they will work fine for
years, but
> if left unpowered for about two years, they will fail to a shorted
condition when
> powered on again.
> 
> In surface mount style, they will be little yellowish blocks with a bar
engraved
> or printed on one end.
> Locating the one or two bad ones is an exercise in major frustration!
> 

It is entirely possible that they are defective. I tried using a DMM to
measure the resistance across each of the capacitors. None showed a short,
but it could be that I am unable to establish proper contact. I noticed some
suggestions that they may be for a DECstation, I will dig mine out and see
if they work there.

Thanks

Rob


> Jon


From imp at bsdimp.com  Wed Apr  1 14:26:01 2020
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 13:26:01 -0600
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEgbtywaH7c48PaS04+YHpK1OejDbt1taK7+=MomL-PBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCE1h0aZZDmk2HaPMAh=HFh5dBEPCH5xgj4kDB5W=sdsYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301d6082f$7751e830$65f5b890$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCGC1tpLRz7rwfZhAHNkTJwnWa3aZMCZ03x+PdYzzbu5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004011612160.4156324@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <CAMTenCEgbtywaH7c48PaS04+YHpK1OejDbt1taK7+=MomL-PBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrYutyx+9ZmTXgBr0bhaS=ZJySONzMDt2WKO_6taK2QBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 9:28 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 17:24, Maciej W. Rozycki <macro at linux-mips.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >  BTW, nice talk at FOSDEM 2020, I was there. :)
>
> Oh wow! Thank you!
>

Now I'm going to have to find that talk... :)   I was at FOSDEM, but too
preoccupied with my own talk to go to other talks and run the room too full
gauntlet.

Warner

From commodorejohn at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 18:08:23 2020
From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 16:08:23 -0700
Subject: VAX/Smalltalk-80?
Message-ID: <CABCBCvMUmzjcO3493O201bSZ7kuBti5AA7E-tr-6ZnA97iH6og@mail.gmail.com>

Just in the middle of getting a fresh OpenVMS install set up on my
VAXStation (the original having been done years ago when I barely had
any idea what I was doing,) and looking through various repositories
for interesting software to put on there, and I got to thinking about
something I recalled reading about a few years back.

I know from the book "Smalltalk-80: Bits of History, Words of Advice"
- http://sdmeta.gforge.inria.fr/FreeBooks/BitsOfHistory/BitsOfHistory.pdf
- that, back when, there were two implementations of Smalltalk-80 for
VAXen - the first was Unix-based, done by an independent research
group, while the second ran under VMS and was actually developed
within DEC. This version - VAX/Smalltalk-80 - was headed up by Stoney
Ballard and Stephen Shirron; anybody know if there's a surviving copy
out there, if it was ever available outside DEC to begin with?

From wcn440 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 23:16:34 2020
From: wcn440 at gmail.com (Bill Newman)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 21:16:34 -0700
Subject: Monroe 7860
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20200401200139.2dabac88@gmail.com>

I know this doesn't count as a general purpose computer, but does 
anybody have detailed technical information about the Monroe 7860 
business calculator/printer?  I think it was produced in the early 1980's.

Specifically, I'm looking for information about the rom OS for this 
machine.  e.g. are there more built-in commands like "dir".  Maybe, 
is there a basic interpreter I can get at?

On the hardware side, does anybody know about the mag stripe paper 
that the machine is supposed to work with?  It appears to store user 
data on the mag stripe on the paper that it prints on...interesting 
idea, although limited.

Thanks.

Bill Newman


From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 04:24:47 2020
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 11:24:47 +0200
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrYutyx+9ZmTXgBr0bhaS=ZJySONzMDt2WKO_6taK2QBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCE1h0aZZDmk2HaPMAh=HFh5dBEPCH5xgj4kDB5W=sdsYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301d6082f$7751e830$65f5b890$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCGC1tpLRz7rwfZhAHNkTJwnWa3aZMCZ03x+PdYzzbu5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004011612160.4156324@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <CAMTenCEgbtywaH7c48PaS04+YHpK1OejDbt1taK7+=MomL-PBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfrYutyx+9ZmTXgBr0bhaS=ZJySONzMDt2WKO_6taK2QBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEpfEEdxMM6O10=0NneiDqUA8M-_Fj23WTmyLBQguxtaA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 21:26, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>>
> Now I'm going to have to find that talk... :)   I was at FOSDEM, but too preoccupied with my own talk to go to other talks and run the room too full gauntlet.

I know. Your talk was directly before mine in the same room, and I
particularly enjoyed it, as I mentioned in my blog about the
conference. :-)

This is the blog post:
https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/69210.html

And my speaker's notes, video links etc. are here:
https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/69099.html

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Apr  2 11:00:11 2020
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 10:00:11 -0600
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEpfEEdxMM6O10=0NneiDqUA8M-_Fj23WTmyLBQguxtaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCE1h0aZZDmk2HaPMAh=HFh5dBEPCH5xgj4kDB5W=sdsYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301d6082f$7751e830$65f5b890$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCGC1tpLRz7rwfZhAHNkTJwnWa3aZMCZ03x+PdYzzbu5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004011612160.4156324@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <CAMTenCEgbtywaH7c48PaS04+YHpK1OejDbt1taK7+=MomL-PBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfrYutyx+9ZmTXgBr0bhaS=ZJySONzMDt2WKO_6taK2QBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEpfEEdxMM6O10=0NneiDqUA8M-_Fj23WTmyLBQguxtaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfprj_y48=_-Kug2d7F=1QzKRXD8yC7PTu4hP=+hGBM9kw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 3:25 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 21:26, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
> >>
> > Now I'm going to have to find that talk... :)   I was at FOSDEM, but too
> preoccupied with my own talk to go to other talks and run the room too full
> gauntlet.
>
> I know. Your talk was directly before mine in the same room, and I
> particularly enjoyed it, as I mentioned in my blog about the
> conference. :-)
>
> This is the blog post:
> https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/69210.html
>
> And my speaker's notes, video links etc. are here:
> https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/69099.html


Thanks! Nice talk! I wish I'd stuck around but I was kinda fried after my
talk...

Surprised you didn't mention that we had 80 column xterms due to 24x80
25x80 terminals from the 70s and 80s. But this mirrored the 25x80 column
3270s from the 60s which mirrored cards which were 80 columns which owe
their existence to Hollerith adapting the Jacquard looms from the 19th
century which automated the looms of the 18th century... :)

Warner

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  2 12:27:47 2020
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 17:27:47 +0000
Subject: Monroe 7860
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20200401200139.2dabac88@gmail.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20200401200139.2dabac88@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB5608A7F252DAD42B702E34F6A3C60@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

You might dump the ROM and look for ascii strings.
I've wondered if it was possible to glue strops of tape wide enough to cards for these card readers.
Of course, if they were preformatted, it will be a bit more difficult.
Dwight

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Bill Newman via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 9:16 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Cc: wcn440 at gmail.com <wcn440 at gmail.com>
Subject: Monroe 7860

I know this doesn't count as a general purpose computer, but does
anybody have detailed technical information about the Monroe 7860
business calculator/printer?  I think it was produced in the early 1980's.

Specifically, I'm looking for information about the rom OS for this
machine.  e.g. are there more built-in commands like "dir".  Maybe,
is there a basic interpreter I can get at?

On the hardware side, does anybody know about the mag stripe paper
that the machine is supposed to work with?  It appears to store user
data on the mag stripe on the paper that it prints on...interesting
idea, although limited.

Thanks.

Bill Newman


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Apr  2 15:50:04 2020
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 16:50:04 -0400
Subject: FYI: ACM library opened
References: <00BA2954-7984-4524-A4BB-8BD8E94831E1@mcjones.org>
Message-ID: <78A6E54C-300F-4159-A5F8-25B21588A911@comcast.net>

This might be of interest to many of the people on the list.

	paul

> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> 
>> Also, ACM has currently opened up all of its digital archives during these pandemic times, ...  https://dl.acm.org/action/doSearch



From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 16:05:29 2020
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 15:05:29 -0600
Subject: Monroe 7860
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB5608A7F252DAD42B702E34F6A3C60@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20200401200139.2dabac88@gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB5608A7F252DAD42B702E34F6A3C60@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQ5xj2=eoqZKh4XCWR=Xpz2m3ih_Pa3rn-sTu_WJa3Y9A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:27 AM dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> You might dump the ROM and look for ascii strings.
> I've wondered if it was possible to glue strops of tape wide enough to
> cards for these card readers.
> Of course, if they were preformatted, it will be a bit more difficult.
>

I have a few reels of two-inch video tape which I've used to make crude
magnetic cards for old HP desktop machines.

From Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  2 17:04:57 2020
From: Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne Sudol)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 15:04:57 -0700
Subject: Monroe 7860
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQ5xj2=eoqZKh4XCWR=Xpz2m3ih_Pa3rn-sTu_WJa3Y9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20200401200139.2dabac88@gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB5608A7F252DAD42B702E34F6A3C60@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAFrGgTQ5xj2=eoqZKh4XCWR=Xpz2m3ih_Pa3rn-sTu_WJa3Y9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB5223D15C00D620F4D177F479E4C60@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>

As Monroe Systems is  still in business. Contact them, they might have an historian that could help you.
https://monroe-systems.com

Also, there a brochure for sale on ebait.  There is a preview of 4 pages that supplies some general  info (for free)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-1983-MONROE-7860-DESKTOP-ACCOUNTING-CALCULATOR-BROCHURE-23-LB-32-CHAR/381996877124?hash=item58f0c9c544:g:NTAAAOSw32lYwl6G

In 1972, I programmed Burroughs L3000 accounting machines that could read magnetic ledger cards. I wonder if the Monroe could use the same kind.

Wayne


-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith via cctalk
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 2:05 PM
To: dwight; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Monroe 7860

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:27 AM dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> You might dump the ROM and look for ascii strings.
> I've wondered if it was possible to glue strops of tape wide enough to 
> cards for these card readers.
> Of course, if they were preformatted, it will be a bit more difficult.
>

I have a few reels of two-inch video tape which I've used to make crude magnetic cards for old HP desktop machines.


From cramcram at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 17:37:25 2020
From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 15:37:25 -0700
Subject: FYI: ACM library opened
In-Reply-To: <78A6E54C-300F-4159-A5F8-25B21588A911@comcast.net>
References: <00BA2954-7984-4524-A4BB-8BD8E94831E1@mcjones.org>
 <78A6E54C-300F-4159-A5F8-25B21588A911@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAC20j8TTMpN-fKSE_Fak4wRJYKUtzYeztr=YmQOSnLSsCH_Fmg@mail.gmail.com>

Great.  Now I can finally get copies of my Siggraph papers.

Marc

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 1:50 PM Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> This might be of interest to many of the people on the list.
>
>         paul
>
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> >
> >> Also, ACM has currently opened up all of its digital archives during
> these pandemic times, ...  https://dl.acm.org/action/doSearch
>
>
>

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 06:03:51 2020
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 13:03:51 +0200
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfprj_y48=_-Kug2d7F=1QzKRXD8yC7PTu4hP=+hGBM9kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCE1h0aZZDmk2HaPMAh=HFh5dBEPCH5xgj4kDB5W=sdsYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301d6082f$7751e830$65f5b890$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCGC1tpLRz7rwfZhAHNkTJwnWa3aZMCZ03x+PdYzzbu5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004011612160.4156324@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <CAMTenCEgbtywaH7c48PaS04+YHpK1OejDbt1taK7+=MomL-PBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfrYutyx+9ZmTXgBr0bhaS=ZJySONzMDt2WKO_6taK2QBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEpfEEdxMM6O10=0NneiDqUA8M-_Fj23WTmyLBQguxtaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfprj_y48=_-Kug2d7F=1QzKRXD8yC7PTu4hP=+hGBM9kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEQC3O_Ah_PgYJgv=ShsZkg41HhLV7kCKsp+=jNwpvZrg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 2 Apr 2020 at 18:00, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks! Nice talk! I wish I'd stuck around but I was kinda fried after my talk...

I understand. I was the same, and went to the caf? for a couple of beers. :-)

> Surprised you didn't mention that we had 80 column xterms due to 24x80 25x80 terminals from the 70s and 80s. But this mirrored the 25x80 column 3270s from the 60s which mirrored cards which were 80 columns which owe their existence to Hollerith adapting the Jacquard looms from the 19th century which automated the looms of the 18th century... :)

I did know about that story (this one:
http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2019/10/23/80x25/ ) but there seems to be
a lot of controversy around it...

https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/5629/why-did-80x25-become-the-text-monitor-standard

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21340548

And I always find I need to cut a lot of material to fit the time
slot, in any case.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Apr  3 11:04:18 2020
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 10:04:18 -0600
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEQC3O_Ah_PgYJgv=ShsZkg41HhLV7kCKsp+=jNwpvZrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCE1h0aZZDmk2HaPMAh=HFh5dBEPCH5xgj4kDB5W=sdsYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301d6082f$7751e830$65f5b890$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCGC1tpLRz7rwfZhAHNkTJwnWa3aZMCZ03x+PdYzzbu5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004011612160.4156324@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <CAMTenCEgbtywaH7c48PaS04+YHpK1OejDbt1taK7+=MomL-PBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfrYutyx+9ZmTXgBr0bhaS=ZJySONzMDt2WKO_6taK2QBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEpfEEdxMM6O10=0NneiDqUA8M-_Fj23WTmyLBQguxtaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfprj_y48=_-Kug2d7F=1QzKRXD8yC7PTu4hP=+hGBM9kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEQC3O_Ah_PgYJgv=ShsZkg41HhLV7kCKsp+=jNwpvZrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrU=sv2zH8E770X=6yo2mN0sjR3FKbMgPc1tFGqss2DUw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 5:04 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Apr 2020 at 18:00, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks! Nice talk! I wish I'd stuck around but I was kinda fried after
> my talk...
>
> I understand. I was the same, and went to the caf? for a couple of beers.
> :-)
>
> > Surprised you didn't mention that we had 80 column xterms due to 24x80
> 25x80 terminals from the 70s and 80s. But this mirrored the 25x80 column
> 3270s from the 60s which mirrored cards which were 80 columns which owe
> their existence to Hollerith adapting the Jacquard looms from the 19th
> century which automated the looms of the 18th century... :)
>
> I did know about that story (this one:
> http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2019/10/23/80x25/ ) but there seems to be
> a lot of controversy around it...
>

Yea, it isn't as straight a line as I paint it...


>
> https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/5629/why-did-80x25-become-the-text-monitor-standard


This explanation ignores that terminals like the VT52 pre-date the PC world
and were made for some custom gear that DEC engineers made that had no
relationship to NTSC. VT-52 was 1974 and had 80x24 lines. The Apple ][ was
also designed for the TV, but wasn't 24x80 because most TVs at the time
couldn't cope, but even it had custom CRTs and even on those custom CRTs
there was no 80 column mode standard. But the VT-52 was just a reflection
of the VT-50 which was 80x12 lines which was a reflection of the
Datapoint-2200 which was introduced in 1970 which was 80x12 lines as well.
DEC copied this, I've been told in classes in school ("the early terminals"
is all I recall now), but I have no good references between the dots here.

So the connection between 029 punch cards and terminals is clear... But
beyond that back to hollerith and the census to the 029 punch cards is less
clear...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21340548
>
> And I always find I need to cut a lot of material to fit the time
> slot, in any case.
>

Ah, that's true... And the whole 80 column thing is pervasive today as a
standard for any reason...

Warner

From bob at jfcl.com  Fri Apr  3 12:12:42 2020
From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 10:12:42 -0700
Subject: ACM library opened
In-Reply-To: <78A6E54C-300F-4159-A5F8-25B21588A911@comcast.net>
References: <00BA2954-7984-4524-A4BB-8BD8E94831E1@mcjones.org>
 <78A6E54C-300F-4159-A5F8-25B21588A911@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <008101d609db$15f7af90$41e70eb0$@com>

>Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>...
>ACM has currently opened up all of its digital archives during these
pandemic times

  This is great - thanks for passing along the information!

  Now, if the IEEE would just do the same thing...

Bob





From couryhouse at aol.com  Fri Apr  3 13:23:06 2020
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 18:23:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: ACM library opened
In-Reply-To: <008101d609db$15f7af90$41e70eb0$@com>
References: <00BA2954-7984-4524-A4BB-8BD8E94831E1@mcjones.org>
 <78A6E54C-300F-4159-A5F8-25B21588A911@comcast.net>
 <008101d609db$15f7af90$41e70eb0$@com>
Message-ID: <1931848045.43327.1585938186984@mail.yahoo.com>

bring pressure on ieee? to? do? so!? ?--Ed#
In a message dated 4/3/2020 11:17:53 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

>ACM has currently opened up all of its digital archives during these
pandemic times

? This is great - thanks for passing along the information!

? Now, if the IEEE would just do the same thing...

Bob

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Apr  3 13:24:13 2020
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 14:24:13 -0400
Subject: ACM library opened
In-Reply-To: <008101d609db$15f7af90$41e70eb0$@com>
References: <00BA2954-7984-4524-A4BB-8BD8E94831E1@mcjones.org>
 <78A6E54C-300F-4159-A5F8-25B21588A911@comcast.net>
 <008101d609db$15f7af90$41e70eb0$@com>
Message-ID: <1291f1b0-c03b-1feb-82bd-94b48fbca96c@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2020-04-03 1:12 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote:
>> Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>> ...
>> ACM has currently opened up all of its digital archives during these
> pandemic times
> 
>   This is great - thanks for passing along the information!
> 
>   Now, if the IEEE would just do the same thing...


... Permanently.

--T

> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 


From derschjo at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 17:42:29 2020
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 15:42:29 -0700
Subject: ISO: Cipher F880 tape drive, Fujitsu Eagle disk drive
Message-ID: <CADBZjLaadUpNHVBrK3uSw00dGuNB_4KRYT6osHMHqX4w-6F7dQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'm working on restoring an LMI Lambda, which is missing both its tape
drive and its disk drive.  If anyone has a Cipher F880 9-track drive or a
Fujitsu Eagle SMD drive, drop me a line.  Be nice if they were in working
condition, but so long as they're repairable I can work with 'em.

Thanks!
Josh

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Fri Apr  3 18:13:10 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 19:13:10 -0400
Subject: ISO: Cipher F880 tape drive, Fujitsu Eagle disk drive
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLaadUpNHVBrK3uSw00dGuNB_4KRYT6osHMHqX4w-6F7dQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLaadUpNHVBrK3uSw00dGuNB_4KRYT6osHMHqX4w-6F7dQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bd7b4f45-a3a8-497b-1aab-256b660b81bf@alembic.crystel.com>

Is the Eagle the little 8 inch one or the 2284? I have one of the 
smaller ones in my shed....

C

On 4/3/2020 6:42 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:
> I'm working on restoring an LMI Lambda, which is missing both its tape
> drive and its disk drive.  If anyone has a Cipher F880 9-track drive or a
> Fujitsu Eagle SMD drive, drop me a line.  Be nice if they were in working
> condition, but so long as they're repairable I can work with 'em.
> 
> Thanks!
> Josh
> 

From aperry at snowmoose.com  Fri Apr  3 18:21:59 2020
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 16:21:59 -0700
Subject: ISO: Cipher F880 tape drive, Fujitsu Eagle disk drive
In-Reply-To: <bd7b4f45-a3a8-497b-1aab-256b660b81bf@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <CADBZjLaadUpNHVBrK3uSw00dGuNB_4KRYT6osHMHqX4w-6F7dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <bd7b4f45-a3a8-497b-1aab-256b660b81bf@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <3a8d2a00-7c70-86c0-f754-973f57c989c4@snowmoose.com>


The Eagle is M2351 with 270mm platters.

On 4/3/20 4:13 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Is the Eagle the little 8 inch one or the 2284? I have one of the 
> smaller ones in my shed....
> 
> C
> 
> On 4/3/2020 6:42 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:
>> I'm working on restoring an LMI Lambda, which is missing both its tape
>> drive and its disk drive.? If anyone has a Cipher F880 9-track drive or a
>> Fujitsu Eagle SMD drive, drop me a line.? Be nice if they were in working
>> condition, but so long as they're repairable I can work with 'em.
>>2351
>> Thanks!
>> Josh
>>

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Fri Apr  3 19:23:06 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 20:23:06 -0400
Subject: ISO: Cipher F880 tape drive, Fujitsu Eagle disk drive
In-Reply-To: <3a8d2a00-7c70-86c0-f754-973f57c989c4@snowmoose.com>
References: <CADBZjLaadUpNHVBrK3uSw00dGuNB_4KRYT6osHMHqX4w-6F7dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <bd7b4f45-a3a8-497b-1aab-256b660b81bf@alembic.crystel.com>
 <3a8d2a00-7c70-86c0-f754-973f57c989c4@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <20981186-a419-e20c-22d8-be6de2833fbc@alembic.crystel.com>

Ok, I think I have the 2312 or 2322. Could emulate an RM03 disk or two.

Starting to work on digging things out of the shed, the Decsystem20 box 
is in the back there somewhere...

C

On 4/3/2020 7:21 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
> 
> The Eagle is M2351 with 270mm platters.
> 
> On 4/3/20 4:13 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>> Is the Eagle the little 8 inch one or the 2284? I have one of the 
>> smaller ones in my shed....
>>
>> C
>>
>> On 4/3/2020 6:42 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:
>>> I'm working on restoring an LMI Lambda, which is missing both its tape
>>> drive and its disk drive.? If anyone has a Cipher F880 9-track drive 
>>> or a
>>> Fujitsu Eagle SMD drive, drop me a line.? Be nice if they were in 
>>> working
>>> condition, but so long as they're repairable I can work with 'em.
>>> 2351
>>> Thanks!
>>> Josh
>>>

From spam at hell.org  Sat Apr  4 01:15:46 2020
From: spam at hell.org (Mike Begley)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 06:15:46 +0000
Subject: ISO: Cipher F880 tape drive, Fujitsu Eagle disk drive
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLaadUpNHVBrK3uSw00dGuNB_4KRYT6osHMHqX4w-6F7dQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLaadUpNHVBrK3uSw00dGuNB_4KRYT6osHMHqX4w-6F7dQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR1801MB187005D4B4C31E6757217A7EACC40@MWHPR1801MB1870.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

Years and years ago I owned a Lambda, along with a couple friends.  I'm going to guess this was around 1993 or so, give or take a few years.  It had been owned by Ames Lab at Iowa State University.  We had it running for about six months and decided to sell it to someone I believe was in Madison, Wi or Minneapolis.  I always wondered what happened to that machine.

I do have manual for it that had gotten separated from it before the sale.  "Introduction to the Lambda - A Guide for Programmers".  It's about a hundred pages or so, and it goes into the basics about setting up and booting the machine, using the windowing system and zemacs, and general environment information.  I don't know if anyone would be interested in this document.  I'm interested in keeping the original artifact for nostalgia reasons, but I'd be willing to scan it in if there was interest.

-mike

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Josh Dersch via cctalk
Sent: Friday, April 3, 2020 3:42 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: ISO: Cipher F880 tape drive, Fujitsu Eagle disk drive

I'm working on restoring an LMI Lambda, which is missing both its tape drive and its disk drive.  If anyone has a Cipher F880 9-track drive or a Fujitsu Eagle SMD drive, drop me a line.  Be nice if they were in working condition, but so long as they're repairable I can work with 'em.

Thanks!
Josh

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 04:50:45 2020
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 02:50:45 -0700
Subject: ISO: Cipher F880 tape drive, Fujitsu Eagle disk drive
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR1801MB187005D4B4C31E6757217A7EACC40@MWHPR1801MB1870.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CADBZjLaadUpNHVBrK3uSw00dGuNB_4KRYT6osHMHqX4w-6F7dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR1801MB187005D4B4C31E6757217A7EACC40@MWHPR1801MB1870.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLYoQsG4mT5qGm5omHkrntReXCQUe==_uk7PHN2cE4G1Fg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 12:35 AM Mike Begley via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Years and years ago I owned a Lambda, along with a couple friends.  I'm
> going to guess this was around 1993 or so, give or take a few years.  It
> had been owned by Ames Lab at Iowa State University.  We had it running for
> about six months and decided to sell it to someone I believe was in
> Madison, Wi or Minneapolis.  I always wondered what happened to that
> machine.
>

Very cool.  This machine appears to have been used at Rockwell
International.  Other than that, I don't know much about its history.  Thus
far I have it powering up and loading SDU diagnostics (/extremely slowly/)
from an old Qualstar drive.  I'd love to find the correct Cipher drive
since it'll fill in that space in the top correctly and likely be a ton
faster than this thing :).


> I do have manual for it that had gotten separated from it before the
> sale.  "Introduction to the Lambda - A Guide for Programmers".  It's about
> a hundred pages or so, and it goes into the basics about setting up and
> booting the machine, using the windowing system and zemacs, and general
> environment information.  I don't know if anyone would be interested in
> this document.  I'm interested in keeping the original artifact for
> nostalgia reasons, but I'd be willing to scan it in if there was interest.
>

Scanning is always good, I'd like to see it for sure.  I have several large
boxes full of documentation, unfortunately removed from their original
binders -- there was serious mold on them unfortunately, but most of the
actual paper made it out OK.  I have yet to go through and scan them
(they're so musty I'm waiting until facemasks become available again before
taking them on.).

- Josh



>
> -mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Josh Dersch via
> cctalk
> Sent: Friday, April 3, 2020 3:42 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: ISO: Cipher F880 tape drive, Fujitsu Eagle disk drive
>
> I'm working on restoring an LMI Lambda, which is missing both its tape
> drive and its disk drive.  If anyone has a Cipher F880 9-track drive or a
> Fujitsu Eagle SMD drive, drop me a line.  Be nice if they were in working
> condition, but so long as they're repairable I can work with 'em.
>
> Thanks!
> Josh
>

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat Apr  4 08:04:48 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 13:04:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrU=sv2zH8E770X=6yo2mN0sjR3FKbMgPc1tFGqss2DUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008701d607f4$5291f480$f7b5dd80$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCE1h0aZZDmk2HaPMAh=HFh5dBEPCH5xgj4kDB5W=sdsYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301d6082f$7751e830$65f5b890$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCGC1tpLRz7rwfZhAHNkTJwnWa3aZMCZ03x+PdYzzbu5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004011612160.4156324@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <CAMTenCEgbtywaH7c48PaS04+YHpK1OejDbt1taK7+=MomL-PBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfrYutyx+9ZmTXgBr0bhaS=ZJySONzMDt2WKO_6taK2QBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEpfEEdxMM6O10=0NneiDqUA8M-_Fj23WTmyLBQguxtaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfprj_y48=_-Kug2d7F=1QzKRXD8yC7PTu4hP=+hGBM9kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEQC3O_Ah_PgYJgv=ShsZkg41HhLV7kCKsp+=jNwpvZrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfrU=sv2zH8E770X=6yo2mN0sjR3FKbMgPc1tFGqss2DUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45EDE28BA078CAB1.a034b6fb-6930-4bc7-97b6-7b62380d1338@mail.outlook.com>

Back to the original topic, someone suggested the memory would fit a DECstation 2100. They were right! I have done a short post about it https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/04/04/memory-for-a-decstation-2100/. Thanks for the suggestion :-)




Regards




Rob




On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 5:04 PM +0100, "Warner Losh via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:










On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 5:04 AM Liam Proven via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Apr 2020 at 18:00, Warner Losh  wrote:
> >
> > Thanks! Nice talk! I wish I'd stuck around but I was kinda fried after
> my talk...
>
> I understand. I was the same, and went to the caf? for a couple of beers.
> :-)
>
> > Surprised you didn't mention that we had 80 column xterms due to 24x80
> 25x80 terminals from the 70s and 80s. But this mirrored the 25x80 column
> 3270s from the 60s which mirrored cards which were 80 columns which owe
> their existence to Hollerith adapting the Jacquard looms from the 19th
> century which automated the looms of the 18th century... :)
>
> I did know about that story (this one:
> http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2019/10/23/80x25/ ) but there seems to be
> a lot of controversy around it...
>

Yea, it isn't as straight a line as I paint it...


>
> https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/5629/why-did-80x25-become-the-text-monitor-standard


This explanation ignores that terminals like the VT52 pre-date the PC world
and were made for some custom gear that DEC engineers made that had no
relationship to NTSC. VT-52 was 1974 and had 80x24 lines. The Apple ][ was
also designed for the TV, but wasn't 24x80 because most TVs at the time
couldn't cope, but even it had custom CRTs and even on those custom CRTs
there was no 80 column mode standard. But the VT-52 was just a reflection
of the VT-50 which was 80x12 lines which was a reflection of the
Datapoint-2200 which was introduced in 1970 which was 80x12 lines as well.
DEC copied this, I've been told in classes in school ("the early terminals"
is all I recall now), but I have no good references between the dots here.

So the connection between 029 punch cards and terminals is clear... But
beyond that back to hollerith and the census to the 029 punch cards is less
clear...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21340548
>
> And I always find I need to cut a lot of material to fit the time
> slot, in any case.
>

Ah, that's true... And the whole 80 column thing is pervasive today as a
standard for any reason...

Warner






From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  4 12:16:41 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 13:16:41 -0400
Subject: APL-11
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfo2gjEHQrt3-TM4pfiHxr4c1y2jzcHADAB3EvLH58-uZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DDD7945C-9F04-4070-AA00-3CBC88BF6285@matlockfamily.com>
 <69EFE7DF-C28A-47BE-9391-9F4F1FE099DA@comcast.net>
 <MWHPR22MB0878DE677EB2732CF80E08B9EDC80@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <2D497096-CBD8-4C0B-B4F2-13DD9B4B1F8A@comcast.net>
 <CANCZdfo2gjEHQrt3-TM4pfiHxr4c1y2jzcHADAB3EvLH58-uZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB087847973BF4952D9C51E786EDC40@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>


Well, I have had the time to thoroughly go over what is
on that RL02 Disk Image.  It's disappointing.  One could
certainly not do an install on any of the OSes from that
pack as it is very incomplete.  Lots of missing file.
On top of that, reading some of the files shows that there
should be a second RL02 pack to go along with it.  It would
contain at least a lot of documentation but may also have
contained files needed to build systems. I don't suppose
anyone knows a location for a copy of the original DECUS tape.

In the meantime. I have been able to extract all of the
files and will now try to build working tasks for RSX and
RSTS.  I do not know if all the needed pieces are there
for the RT-11 version but I will look into that as well.

bill

From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  4 21:54:44 2020
From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2020 21:54:44 -0500
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841@yahoo.com>

Okay, I've only ever been a user, back in high school, of HP 2000F TSB 
system but wanted to play with it again and learn more about the system. 
I've been able set up Simh with 2000F TSB and everything is working 
fine. Using the latest release I can find out there, HP2100 release 29. 
Now I'd like to be able to install some of the Contributed Software 
Library but despite reading the various TSB manuals and Simh doc, I've 
been unable to actually get anything loaded.

Can anyone with experience with this lend me a hand, some tutorial or 
point the way to some instructions I may have missed?

Thanks in advance.

David Williams

From jeffrey at vcfed.org  Sat Apr  4 22:06:15 2020
From: jeffrey at vcfed.org (Jeffrey Brace)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 23:06:15 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
Message-ID: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>

https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
-- 
=========================================
Jeff Brace
Vice President & Board Member, VCF East Showrunner
Vintage Computer Federation
http://www.vcfed.org/
jeffrey at vcfed.org

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sat Apr  4 22:22:26 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 23:22:26 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <805126d5-bb52-ebdf-71d8-933a59dfcdae@alembic.crystel.com>

I seem to recall they were using a lot of pdp11's, so oddly enough my 
Cobol81 skills might be handy here.... I could even work remotely on my 
pdp11/73 and hook up to them with DecNet....

Hm



On 4/4/2020 11:06 PM, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
> 

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Apr  4 23:47:22 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 21:47:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/

In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.

They were told to update their software.

Now, 20 years later, they are looking for COBOL programmers, to start the 
update project.


In another 16 years, they will need to send John Titor back in time to 
look for a 5100.  Maybe by then, they will realize that the 5100 was not 
the only machine that could run APL.


I will repeat my standing offer.  In exchange for a ONE-WAY ride to the 
1960s, I will get him a 5100, and start an investment portfolio to fund 
the project.  I will now sweeten the deal, and promise to also do COBOL 
for New Jersey for a few years in the 1990s, to try to help make Y2K less 
of a surprise for them, and try to get them started updating their 
software.
If the ride is ROUND-TRIP, then he just gets some documentation for the 
5100.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Apr  4 23:54:50 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 21:54:50 -0700
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <ae9dcbdb-013f-45e5-6778-ade1f1ed38ec@sydex.com>

On 4/4/20 9:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
>> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
>>
> 
> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
> 

To be fair, in 1999, everybody under the sun was looking for COBOL
programmers.

--Chuck

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Apr  5 00:15:57 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 22:15:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <ae9dcbdb-013f-45e5-6778-ade1f1ed38ec@sydex.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <ae9dcbdb-013f-45e5-6778-ade1f1ed38ec@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042159270.7789@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

>> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
>>> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
>>>
>>
> On 4/4/20 9:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
>>
>
> To be fair, in 1999, everybody under the sun was looking for COBOL
> programmers.
>
> --Chuck

VERY TRUE.

New Jersey is and was far from unique.  They are like every other similar 
installation.  We never fix things until we get desperate.
What percentage of managers INTEND to update their legacy code base?


In 1970, in my absolutely bottom of the totem pole job at Goddard Space 
Flight Center, I questioned the use of 2 decimal digits for the year. 
(FORTRAN)  I was told, "don't be ridiculous.  All of this will be redone 
long before that, and WE won't be here to be held responsible".
That was also when I learned to write comments before writing code, since 
they damn sure wouldn't tolerate taking time to add comments after the 
program seemed to work.


The entire industry was "taken by surprise" when it came time to deal with 
Y2K.

Not just the computer industry.  I re-ordered check blanks from my bank in 
late 1998.  They came with "19______" preprinted for date.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Apr  5 00:47:45 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 22:47:45 -0700
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042159270.7789@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <ae9dcbdb-013f-45e5-6778-ade1f1ed38ec@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042159270.7789@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <136f1f7b-bc76-f0fd-14c2-5307f5c2da5b@sydex.com>

On 4/4/20 10:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> In 1970, in my absolutely bottom of the totem pole job at Goddard Space
> Flight Center, I questioned the use of 2 decimal digits for the year.
> (FORTRAN)? I was told, "don't be ridiculous.? All of this will be redone
> long before that, and WE won't be here to be held responsible".
> That was also when I learned to write comments before writing code,
> since they damn sure wouldn't tolerate taking time to add comments after
> the program seemed to work.

Heck, up until about 1975, the Air Force Logistics command was using IBM
7080s running COBOL with (undocumented) Autocoder patch decks.
Maintenance became an issue of "don't touch it if it works".

AFLC eventually updated their systems--to S/370 boxes running in 7080
emulation mode.

Stories like this abound.  Wasn't California DMV running RCA Spectrolas
well into the 80s?

--Chuck


From tom at figureeightbrewing.com  Sat Apr  4 16:50:15 2020
From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 16:50:15 -0500
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <20200312014340.GA439@RawFedDogs.net>
References: <20200311221606.GA23843@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311204837.GA29749@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200311203200.B367B25AA24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200311210301.5116925AA5C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200312012019.1149625AC28@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200312014340.GA439@RawFedDogs.net>
Message-ID: <85810ac1-08f5-2645-c935-c5c3a4b0b31d@figureeightbrewing.com>

Does anyone have information on having a replacement PDP-11/05 key made?

--tnx
--tom

From steven at malikoff.com  Sun Apr  5 06:06:04 2020
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 21:06:04 +1000
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <85810ac1-08f5-2645-c935-c5c3a4b0b31d@figureeightbrewing.com>
References: <20200311221606.GA23843@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311204837.GA29749@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200311203200.B367B25AA24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200311210301.5116925AA5C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200312012019.1149625AC28@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200312014340.GA439@RawFedDogs.net>
 <85810ac1-08f5-2645-c935-c5c3a4b0b31d@figureeightbrewing.com>
Message-ID: <ed4084a2ff5e788433cc69e55fce7742.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Tom said
> Does anyone have information on having a replacement PDP-11/05 key made?
>
> --tnx
> --tom


There is a bloke in France(?) who can apparently do them
https://sites.google.com/site/conservatique/keys

I managed to borrow one and my local Mister Minit keycutter had no trouble matching
the blank. It is a very short key and the pattern is very simple, you could probably
file one down if it matches the cross section. I could take some close-up photos of my
working copy (I posted the original back to its owner) if you really needed them.

Steve.



From doug at doughq.com  Sun Apr  5 03:39:28 2020
From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 18:39:28 +1000
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <85810ac1-08f5-2645-c935-c5c3a4b0b31d@figureeightbrewing.com>
References: <20200311221606.GA23843@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311204837.GA29749@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200311203200.B367B25AA24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200311210301.5116925AA5C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200312012019.1149625AC28@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200312014340.GA439@RawFedDogs.net>
 <85810ac1-08f5-2645-c935-c5c3a4b0b31d@figureeightbrewing.com>
Message-ID: <CAM_9E62fCw+CAfbw1koduXZJjXK6bvw-h-LPwg-LuFRL1zhi5A@mail.gmail.com>

I'm literally in the process of starting this.

I have a pdp11/05 and the key was snapped off.  I brazed it back together.

The barrel is a three wafer unit.  It is easily removable by undoing the 4
screws to remove the front panel.  Removing the screws holding the micro
switches in place and removing the lock retaining plate.

I was going to take the key and barrel to a local locksmith for him to make
some spares.

Doug

On Sun, 5 Apr. 2020, 6:18 pm Tom Uban via cctalk, <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Does anyone have information on having a replacement PDP-11/05 key made?
>
> --tnx
> --tom
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Apr  5 07:39:17 2020
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun,  5 Apr 2020 08:39:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
Message-ID: <20200405123917.8321318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    From: Tom Uban

    > Does anyone have information on having a replacement PDP-11/05 key made?

Google is your friend; here:

    https://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Keys

I don't recall if there's anough info there to create new keys without an
original to copy. At one point I made a run of copies (after posting a call
here); I suppose I could do so again.

	Noel



From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 07:40:56 2020
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 08:40:56 -0400
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <ed4084a2ff5e788433cc69e55fce7742.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <20200311221606.GA23843@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311204837.GA29749@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200311203200.B367B25AA24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200311210301.5116925AA5C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200312012019.1149625AC28@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200312014340.GA439@RawFedDogs.net>
 <85810ac1-08f5-2645-c935-c5c3a4b0b31d@figureeightbrewing.com>
 <ed4084a2ff5e788433cc69e55fce7742.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuc2FtcSCSeojGSXyFP7vrTNY8+5h=vUY4kS-VfsNOkqYQ@mail.gmail.com>

That's what I did, file one down.
Bill

On Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 7:06 AM Steve Malikoff via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Tom said
> > Does anyone have information on having a replacement PDP-11/05 key made?
> >
> > --tnx
> > --tom
>
>
> There is a bloke in France(?) who can apparently do them
> https://sites.google.com/site/conservatique/keys
>
> I managed to borrow one and my local Mister Minit keycutter had no trouble
> matching
> the blank. It is a very short key and the pattern is very simple, you
> could probably
> file one down if it matches the cross section. I could take some close-up
> photos of my
> working copy (I posted the original back to its owner) if you really
> needed them.
>
> Steve.
>
>
>

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun Apr  5 08:05:39 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 14:05:39 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>

I found time to follow Mattis?s suggestion today and I got some interesting results.

 

I powered the UC3842 with about 16V from a bench power supply. I lifted R32 so that the transformer would not supply it. I then used an isolating transformer to power a variac and applied the variac to the AC inlet. I also used a load board from a MicroVAX 2000 and an old RD53 disk as the load, so there should be enough load.

 

I found that I can vary the AC input up to a maximum of about 40VAC before the SCR triggers, the  5V output reaches about 400mV. If I raise the AC input more slowly, it will usually cut out before that, around 30VAC. I noticed that the inrush thermistors also get quite hot at these low AC voltages, I don?t know if this is because of the relatively low AC supply voltage, or if this indicates a problem of some kind.

The voltage coming out of L3 into the T1 ?bounces? somewhat. I guess this is because the AC input is only 20V or so, or it may be expected ripple from the smoothing capacitors? In the description below, the peaks of the bounces are used. Throughout the variation from 0VAC to 40VAC the duty cycle of the oscillation of the UC3842 output does not change, I guess because the output voltage has not reached its target value.

 

With the AC input at about 25VAC the circuit seems to be stable (apart from the bounces mentioned above). At this supply voltage, the voltage at the source of Q1 reaches 2V. The current sense resistor is 1 Ohm, which means 2A must be flowing through it at that time.

 

When the Q1 source is at 2V, the other end of R14 is at about 0.5V, which is just below the trigger voltage for the SCR. This makes sense because R14 and R15 form a voltage divider that looks to be nominally 25% of the Q1 source. Given the SCR nominally triggers at about 0.8V, this means that the current sense resistor is set to trigger the SCR at about 2.5A, I think. This would suggest that the duty cycle on Q1 is too high and causing too much current to be drawn. So presumably the feedback to the UC3842 is not working correctly.

 

I tried setting the AC input at 120V and using a one-shot sample. Q1 is switched for about 30ms and then there is a spike on the SCR gate to 2V and it triggers. The gate voltage then remains at 1V. However, there is no spike across the current sense resistor (R13), so I don?t know if the spike is because the SCR is being turned for some other reason. There is nothing unusual on the anode of D19 to cause it to trigger due to avalanche breakdown. I got the same result when the AC input was 220V. I wonder if the SCR is behaving slightly differently because I have lifted R32?

 

Since there might be a feedback problem, I looked at the VFB input to the UC3842 when doing a one-shot test at 240VAC. I can see VFB steadily rise over the period when Q1 switched, up to a maximum of 4V. I don?t really know if this is how it should behave though, but it seems to make logical sense. During all that time the duty cycle of Q1 does not change.

 

I am not too sure where to go from here. I hope the above makes sense. I would appreciate any further thoughts.

 

Regards

 

Rob

 

 

From: Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> 
Sent: 29 March 2020 11:40
To: 'Mattis Lind' <mattislind at gmail.com>; rob at jarratt.me.uk
Cc: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: VAXmate PSU

 

Thanks, I do have an isolating transformer as well, so I will use that. I have done previous tests with a bench PSU on the UC3842 and found it needs 16V to get going. I just checked the Technical Description and it says the minimum current on the 5V output is 6.4A and on 12V it is 0.17A. I checked my load board and it is only going to sink 3A, so I need more load as I think the IDE disk is not going to be much. Would insufficient load really cause it to shutdown so quickly though?

 

Not sure I understand your comment about ?designators for networks?, is there an example you can point me at? One of the things I have tried to do, but clearly not very successfully, is to minimise the lengths of the wires.

 

Regards

 

Rob

 

From: Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com <mailto:mattislind at gmail.com> > 
Sent: 29 March 2020 08:51
To: rob at jarratt.me.uk <mailto:rob at jarratt.me.uk> 
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >
Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU

 

Hello Rob,

s?ndag 29 mars 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com <mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> >:

Thanks Mattis. I do test it with a load, although to be honest I forgot to do this when I took the measurements yesterday. I use a modern-ish IDE disk and a load board from a MicroVAX 2000 as the dummy load. I don?t know if that is sufficient.

 

Do you know the nominal output rating for the supply?

It might be the case that even with load board the load is uneven. But it sounds less likely.  

 

I don?t know enough about PSUs to make the secondary side drawing more logical unfortunately.

 

Can be hard. But a good idea is try to minimise the length of wires. Maybe use designators for networks instead of wires to make the schematic more readable. On the other hand I was reading the post on the iPad. 

 

I have a variac and a bench power supply, so I could do what you suggest. 

To stay safe you need a protection transformer as well. Otherwise the the bench supply will end up at line potential. With the protection transformer in place the circuit will be left floating in relation to earth. With a variac you can then vary the input and keep it within safe limits. If you don?t have a protection transformer and variac then another bench DC supply that can give up to 100 V can be used instead. 

 

Could you be a bit more specific about where to apply what, so I don?t do it wrong or damage something? Would you put the bench PSU across the UC3842 Vcc and Gnd pins? I am not sure what would happen if the normal supply to the UC3842 was still in place with the bench power supply also trying to supply power. Would it be wise to lift R32 so nothing conflicts with the bench power supply? 

 

Absolutely right. I should have been more explicit about where to introduce external supply. But as you say, lift R32 to isolate the switching controller and feed in the bench supply current at VCC. Check the data sheet for what is approriate voltage. 

 

Good luck!

 

/Mattis

 

Thanks

 

Rob

 

From: Mattis Lind < <mailto:mattislind at gmail.com> mattislind at gmail.com> 
Sent: 29 March 2020 06:39
To:  <mailto:rob at jarratt.me.uk> rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt < <mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU

 

Hello Rob,

l?rdag 28 mars 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >:

I have posted here a couple of times because I have a failed VAXmate PSU. I
have just posted a little bit more information here:
https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/03/28/further-analysis-of-the-vaxmate-h7 <https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/03/28/further-analysis-of-the-vaxmate-h7270-psu-failure/> 
270-psu-failure/ with some scope traces and a greatly improved schematic.
Although the schematic is likely to have errors still. Unfortunately, a
stray scope probe ground lead blew the fuse so now I have to wait for a new
fuse to arrive before I can continue work.



I would really like to know if all the spiking I am seeing is to be
expected, and any suggestions why it appears to be detecting an overcurrent?
There do not appear to be any shorts on the secondary side, but that could
be wrong of course. I don't know if a genuine short anywhere would cause it
to trip the SCR quite so quickly (within 20ms of the switching transistor
starting to switch).

 

This is fly back design and I would expect some spiking when the transistor shuts off.  

 

Then for over-current. It might be so that there are over-voltage protection on the outputs that kicks in. A crowbar that short circuits the output. It looks like there is such a circuit on 5 and 12 V. But to be honest the output circuit schematic is hard to read. 

 

If you have no load or little load or un-even load the PSU might hae problems to regulate. I know for fact that the PSU in the MicroVAX 2000 need to have a dummy load when no hard drive is installed otherwise there will be uneven load which it has hard time to handle sonce the output regulation is based on the sum of the outputs somehow. It will trip the crowbar on over voltage on one of the outputs otherwise. 

 

What if you supply the control circuitry on the primary side using a bench lab supply and then connect a protection transformer and a variac in series to the normal AC inlet. 

 

Slowly increase input AC voltage while monitoring source voltage and output voltages.  At what AC input voltages does it trip? What is the output voltages at this point? 

 

If both voltages exceed normal and the crowbar trips I would think that the feedback network somehow reports to low output voltage to the control circuitry. Maybe the opto coupler is bad?

 

Sorry. A lot of guessing here. But it is hard to tell withour more measurements. 

 

/Mattis

 



Any thoughts gratefully received.



Thanks



Rob


From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Sun Apr  5 08:41:15 2020
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2020 15:41:15 +0200
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>

l?r 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:
> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
> > 
> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
> 
> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
> 
> They were told to update their software.
> 
> Now, 20 years later, they are looking for COBOL programmers, to start
> the 
> update project.
> 

To be fair, in this case updating your software means:

throw out the baby with the water
build a completely new IT infrastructure with everything
and expect things to work badly the next 5-8 years....
long enough to hinder/(be a millstone around) the governor's re-
election campagin

and then in 15 years, be prepared to redo....

Pundits like this steinberg is right and wrong - they doesn't
acknowledge how expensive new fangled information technology is.



From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 09:00:09 2020
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 10:00:09 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueGuDaQG_J=wtBwuKe8wLhrcKJB4raSqWRjbcXHocQ1DA@mail.gmail.com>

This may have already been said, but I have worked with a little COBOL
within MS .NET for fun, some years ago, just to see it run.  I am sure
that's what they're intending the candidates for this job will have had
experience doing.  My guess would be it's just as important to be a .NET
guru who can update COBOL within that environment as if it was C# or ASP.
COBOL/.NET.   You would need to assign printers, add option codes, etc..
You would be working with legacy code that is solid, just needs parameter
updates stuff like that.  Networking, printer configurations and
environment tweaks.

When I ran COBOL GAP accounting jobs way back when while at DuPont, we used
TSO/JCL to set up the jobs.  Now a day .NET fulfils that layer.

I guess it is possible that an AIX server emulating an early 80's IBM
server emulating an IBM 360 is the environment is being used but I bet it
was upgraded to .NET years ago.  Not so crazy.  COBOL is great for things
like printing checks.

So if you're a .NET guru this might be a fun contract in the $200/hr's.
Hmmm...

Bill




On Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 9:41 AM Stefan Skoglund via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> l?r 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:
> > On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
> > >
> >
> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
> >
> > In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
> >
> > They were told to update their software.
> >
> > Now, 20 years later, they are looking for COBOL programmers, to start
> > the
> > update project.
> >
>
> To be fair, in this case updating your software means:
>
> throw out the baby with the water
> build a completely new IT infrastructure with everything
> and expect things to work badly the next 5-8 years....
> long enough to hinder/(be a millstone around) the governor's re-
> election campagin
>
> and then in 15 years, be prepared to redo....
>
> Pundits like this steinberg is right and wrong - they doesn't
> acknowledge how expensive new fangled information technology is.
>
>
>

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  5 09:24:40 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 10:24:40 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB0878E7F5FE61363DE7DCC832EDC50@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

On 4/4/20 11:06 PM, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
> 


Yet another article loaded with BS denigrating COBOL.
The product of a very flawed academic system that decided
to destroy COBOL because its users refused to accept that
academics know what's best for the industry.

bill


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  5 09:29:23 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 10:29:23 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <ae9dcbdb-013f-45e5-6778-ade1f1ed38ec@sydex.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <ae9dcbdb-013f-45e5-6778-ade1f1ed38ec@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB0878A4B84185BFA583817BB9EDC50@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

On 4/5/20 12:54 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/4/20 9:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
>>> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
>>>
>>
>> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
>>
> 
> To be fair, in 1999, everybody under the sun was looking for COBOL
> programmers.
> 

Not really.  The Y2K problem had been addressed and fixed on all
the real computer systems long before that.


PRIMOS 23.4.Y2K.R1
------------------
Copyright (c) Prime Computer, Inc. 1988

A Y2K version of the OS released in 1988.

bill


From ian at platinum.net  Sun Apr  5 10:10:41 2020
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 08:10:41 -0700
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <20200405123917.8321318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20200405123917.8321318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <A349B888-91B4-45D4-91FA-7D5E2BE34671@platinum.net>

I can confirm that about 6 months ago I gave this very information to our corporate locksmith, and he was able to make a key for me that works.  He thought it such an unusual and worthy request that he did it for free :)

Ian


> On Apr 5, 2020, at 5:39 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>    From: Tom Uban
> 
>> Does anyone have information on having a replacement PDP-11/05 key made?
> 
> Google is your friend; here:
> 
>    https://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Keys
> 
> I don't recall if there's anough info there to create new keys without an
> original to copy. At one point I made a run of copies (after posting a call
> here); I suppose I could do so again.
> 
> 	Noel
> 
> 


From albiorix at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 10:26:35 2020
From: albiorix at gmail.com (Neil Thompson)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 17:26:35 +0200
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR22MB0878A4B84185BFA583817BB9EDC50@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <ae9dcbdb-013f-45e5-6778-ade1f1ed38ec@sydex.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878A4B84185BFA583817BB9EDC50@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CA+2pV54P9frokrGkPkbQosDkMVEpgHOsrWigq+4pPA-EeXhmSw@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, my contract to a large University fixing all their COBOL stuff
finished in October 1998.

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 16:29, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 4/5/20 12:54 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> > On 4/4/20 9:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> >> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
> >>>
> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
> >>>
> >>
> >> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
> >>
> >
> > To be fair, in 1999, everybody under the sun was looking for COBOL
> > programmers.
> >
>
> Not really.  The Y2K problem had been addressed and fixed on all
> the real computer systems long before that.
>
>
> PRIMOS 23.4.Y2K.R1
> ------------------
> Copyright (c) Prime Computer, Inc. 1988
>
> A Y2K version of the OS released in 1988.
>
> bill
>
>

From drb at msu.edu  Sun Apr  5 10:27:39 2020
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2020 11:27:39 -0400
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 04 Apr 2020 16:50:15 -0500.)
 <85810ac1-08f5-2645-c935-c5c3a4b0b31d@figureeightbrewing.com>
References: <85810ac1-08f5-2645-c935-c5c3a4b0b31d@figureeightbrewing.com>
 <20200311221606.GA23843@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311204837.GA29749@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net>
 <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200311203200.B367B25AA24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200311210301.5116925AA5C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200312012019.1149625AC28@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200312014340.GA439@RawFedDogs.net>
Message-ID: <20200405152739.EFF8F2BAEB5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > Does anyone have information on having a replacement PDP-11/05 key
 > made?

I believe I can make these.  I'd like to have a test.  May I send you
one?

The key is a Chicago GRB2: cut 215 on an Ilco S1041T.  You can use a
1041T and cut it down.

De

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Sun Apr  5 11:22:30 2020
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 09:22:30 -0700
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>



> On Apr 5, 2020, at 6:41 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> l?r 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:
>> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
>>> 
>> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
>> 
>> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
>> 
>> They were told to update their software.
>> 
>> Now, 20 years later, they are looking for COBOL programmers, to start
>> the 
>> update project.
>> 
> 
> To be fair, in this case updating your software means:
> 
> throw out the baby with the water
> build a completely new IT infrastructure with everything
> and expect things to work badly the next 5-8 years....
> long enough to hinder/(be a millstone around) the governor's re-
> election campagin
> 
> and then in 15 years, be prepared to redo....
> 
> Pundits like this steinberg is right and wrong - they doesn't
> acknowledge how expensive new fangled information technology is.

What?s really funny, in a sad way, if you read the article above carefully, and you watch the clip.  They?re looking for *VOLUNTEERS* to do this work!

https://www.latestly.com/technology/new-jersey-governor-needs-cobol-programmers-as-covid-19-response-volunteers-to-fix-unemployment-insurance-systems-gets-trolled-on-twitter-for-demanding-outdated-technology-1660018.html

Zane




From imp at bsdimp.com  Sun Apr  5 11:26:33 2020
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 10:26:33 -0600
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 10:22 AM Zane Healy via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>
>
> > On Apr 5, 2020, at 6:41 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > l?r 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:
> >> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
> >>>
> >>
> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
> >>
> >> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
> >>
> >> They were told to update their software.
> >>
> >> Now, 20 years later, they are looking for COBOL programmers, to start
> >> the
> >> update project.
> >>
> >
> > To be fair, in this case updating your software means:
> >
> > throw out the baby with the water
> > build a completely new IT infrastructure with everything
> > and expect things to work badly the next 5-8 years....
> > long enough to hinder/(be a millstone around) the governor's re-
> > election campagin
> >
> > and then in 15 years, be prepared to redo....
> >
> > Pundits like this steinberg is right and wrong - they doesn't
> > acknowledge how expensive new fangled information technology is.
>
> What?s really funny, in a sad way, if you read the article above
> carefully, and you watch the clip.  They?re looking for *VOLUNTEERS* to do
> this work!
>
>
> https://www.latestly.com/technology/new-jersey-governor-needs-cobol-programmers-as-covid-19-response-volunteers-to-fix-unemployment-insurance-systems-gets-trolled-on-twitter-for-demanding-outdated-technology-1660018.html


Good luck with that. You could have found them easily enough in the 70s
when my folks were taking Cobol classes at the community college and
everyone was using it. Now... woof.

Warner

>
>

From imp at bsdimp.com  Sun Apr  5 11:29:36 2020
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 10:29:36 -0600
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfo8+UPizbaukKAeVQRDO5ieOd3ds0qk2fgR27Q827pURw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 10:26 AM Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 10:22 AM Zane Healy via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 5, 2020, at 6:41 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > l?r 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:
>> >> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>
>> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
>> >>
>> >> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
>> >>
>> >> They were told to update their software.
>> >>
>> >> Now, 20 years later, they are looking for COBOL programmers, to start
>> >> the
>> >> update project.
>> >>
>> >
>> > To be fair, in this case updating your software means:
>> >
>> > throw out the baby with the water
>> > build a completely new IT infrastructure with everything
>> > and expect things to work badly the next 5-8 years....
>> > long enough to hinder/(be a millstone around) the governor's re-
>> > election campagin
>> >
>> > and then in 15 years, be prepared to redo....
>> >
>> > Pundits like this steinberg is right and wrong - they doesn't
>> > acknowledge how expensive new fangled information technology is.
>>
>> What?s really funny, in a sad way, if you read the article above
>> carefully, and you watch the clip.  They?re looking for *VOLUNTEERS* to do
>> this work!
>>
>>
>> https://www.latestly.com/technology/new-jersey-governor-needs-cobol-programmers-as-covid-19-response-volunteers-to-fix-unemployment-insurance-systems-gets-trolled-on-twitter-for-demanding-outdated-technology-1660018.html
>
>
> Good luck with that. You could have found them easily enough in the 70s
> when my folks were taking Cobol classes at the community college and
> everyone was using it. Now... woof.
>

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/05/new_jersey_seeks_cobol_volunteers/

Warner

>

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  5 11:35:41 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 12:35:41 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB0878BC15FEEF2C8E7F366655EDC50@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

On 4/5/20 12:22 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Apr 5, 2020, at 6:41 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> l?r 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:
>>> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
>>>>
>>> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
>>>
>>> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
>>>
>>> They were told to update their software.
>>>
>>> Now, 20 years later, they are looking for COBOL programmers, to start
>>> the
>>> update project.
>>>
>>
>> To be fair, in this case updating your software means:
>>
>> throw out the baby with the water
>> build a completely new IT infrastructure with everything
>> and expect things to work badly the next 5-8 years....
>> long enough to hinder/(be a millstone around) the governor's re-
>> election campagin
>>
>> and then in 15 years, be prepared to redo....
>>
>> Pundits like this steinberg is right and wrong - they doesn't
>> acknowledge how expensive new fangled information technology is.
> 
> What?s really funny, in a sad way, if you read the article above carefully, and you watch the clip.  They?re looking for *VOLUNTEERS* to do this work!
> 
> https://www.latestly.com/technology/new-jersey-governor-needs-cobol-programmers-as-covid-19-response-volunteers-to-fix-unemployment-insurance-systems-gets-trolled-on-twitter-for-demanding-outdated-technology-1660018.html
> 

And, if the happen to get those "volunteers", they will get
exactly what they paid for and the trade press will get even
more rocks to throw at COBOL.

bill



From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sun Apr  5 11:56:18 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 12:56:18 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <42a9760b-c1cc-0cdd-ecea-d4f56a470629@alembic.crystel.com>

> What?s really funny, in a sad way, if you read the article above carefully, and you watch the clip.
> They?re looking for *VOLUNTEERS* to do thbis work!

That's problematic. And now that I said I know COBOL81, I could find 
myself kidnapped by NJ Govt agents and chained to a VT05 terminal.

No, no, not 12 lines per screen! HELP!!!!

From lars at nocrew.org  Sun Apr  5 12:27:05 2020
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2020 17:27:05 +0000
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <42a9760b-c1cc-0cdd-ecea-d4f56a470629@alembic.crystel.com> (Chris
 Zach via cctalk's message of "Sun, 5 Apr 2020 12:56:18 -0400")
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <42a9760b-c1cc-0cdd-ecea-d4f56a470629@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <7wpncllu6u.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Chris Zach wrote:
> That's problematic. And now that I said I know COBOL81, I could find
> myself kidnapped by NJ Govt agents and chained to a VT05 terminal.
> No, no, not 12 lines per screen! HELP!!!!

Am I wrong in understanding the VT05 was 20 lines, and the VT50 12
lines?

By the way, I believe the VT50 character font is slightly different from
VT52.  Does anyone have the ROMs?

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Apr  5 12:31:29 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 10:31:29 -0700
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR22MB0878E7F5FE61363DE7DCC832EDC50@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878E7F5FE61363DE7DCC832EDC50@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <34f6ea69-7651-d062-afbd-17eaebad0142@sydex.com>

On 4/5/20 7:24 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

> Yet another article loaded with BS denigrating COBOL.
> The product of a very flawed academic system that decided
> to destroy COBOL because its users refused to accept that
> academics know what's best for the industry.

COBOL was remarkable in several respects.  Structured records being one
of them. (FLOW-MATIC was actually a bit superior in that the record
structure information was separate from the program).  Strong data
typing was another one.

Grace Hopper did a remarkable job keeping the CODASYL show together,
long before ANSI took an interest in standardizing languages.

On the other hand, there's always PL/I--a language for everybody and
nobody.  Be ye FORTRAN, COBOL or Algol programmer, you can, like Burger
King, have it your way.  A co-worker from IBM once told me that the
original IBM PL/I committee was a band of misfits.

--Chuck


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sun Apr  5 12:55:49 2020
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 11:55:49 -0600
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <ae9dcbdb-013f-45e5-6778-ade1f1ed38ec@sydex.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <ae9dcbdb-013f-45e5-6778-ade1f1ed38ec@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54c59999-9602-0ed0-f967-fd14d5db1e79@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 4/4/2020 10:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/4/20 9:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
>>> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
>>>
>>
>> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
>>
> 
> To be fair, in 1999, everybody under the sun was looking for COBOL
> programmers.
> 
> --Chuck
> 
  Do they wear trench coats and dark glasses that nobody sees them,
and on the side they sell cheap watches from Hong Kong?
What about FORTRAN and PL/I?



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sun Apr  5 13:02:40 2020
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 14:02:40 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <7wpncllu6u.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <42a9760b-c1cc-0cdd-ecea-d4f56a470629@alembic.crystel.com>
 <7wpncllu6u.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <239BC29D-9187-4A41-8297-CC5B3C7EC79F@comcast.net>



> On Apr 5, 2020, at 1:27 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Chris Zach wrote:
>> That's problematic. And now that I said I know COBOL81, I could find
>> myself kidnapped by NJ Govt agents and chained to a VT05 terminal.
>> No, no, not 12 lines per screen! HELP!!!!
> 
> Am I wrong in understanding the VT05 was 20 lines, and the VT50 12
> lines?

Correct.  The VT05 has 72 columns rather than 80.  And it requires fill after line feed at higher speeds so the scroll can finish before the next character. 

	paul


From w2hx at w2hx.com  Sun Apr  5 13:04:54 2020
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 18:04:54 +0000
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR22MB0878A4B84185BFA583817BB9EDC50@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <ae9dcbdb-013f-45e5-6778-ade1f1ed38ec@sydex.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878A4B84185BFA583817BB9EDC50@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <7a14c92acd294d1b9b119fd74fe9efd8@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM>

Not sure about that. I worked for Pershing in Jersey City around that time. They were (are?) a clearing house for tens of millions of dollars' worth of stock and bond trades every day. Lots of cobol to be remediated still in 1999. Oh, and I also worked on decimalization (stocks used to be traded in 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, and 1/16ths of a dollar)

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 10:29 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

On 4/5/20 12:54 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/4/20 9:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
>>> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-ne
>>> eds-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
>>>
>>
>> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
>>
> 
> To be fair, in 1999, everybody under the sun was looking for COBOL 
> programmers.
> 

Not really.  The Y2K problem had been addressed and fixed on all the real computer systems long before that.


PRIMOS 23.4.Y2K.R1
------------------
Copyright (c) Prime Computer, Inc. 1988

A Y2K version of the OS released in 1988.

bill


From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Sun Apr  5 13:26:22 2020
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 13:26:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <42a9760b-c1cc-0cdd-ecea-d4f56a470629@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <42a9760b-c1cc-0cdd-ecea-d4f56a470629@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <1834350348.57433.1586111182503@email.ionos.com>

> On April 5, 2020 at 11:56 AM Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> > What?s really funny, in a sad way, if you read the article above carefully, and you watch the clip.They?re looking for *VOLUNTEERS* to do thbis work!That's problematic. And now that I said I know COBOL81, I could findmyself kidnapped by NJ Govt agents and chained to a VT05 terminal.
> No, no, not 12 lines per screen! HELP!!!!

It New Jersey.  They will simply make you an offer you can't refuse!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeldwfOwuL8

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Apr  5 14:40:24 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 12:40:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>

>> https://www.latestly.com/technology/new-jersey-governor-needs-cobol-programmers-as-covid-19-response-volunteers-to-fix-unemployment-insurance-systems-gets-trolled-on-twitter-for-demanding-outdated-technology-1660018.html

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> Yet another article loaded with BS denigrating COBOL.
> The product of a very flawed academic system that decided
> to destroy COBOL because its users refused to accept that
> academics know what's best for the industry.
On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
> Good luck with that. You could have found them easily enough in the 70s
> when my folks were taking Cobol classes at the community college and
> everyone was using it. Now... woof.

Edsger Dijksta said, "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching 
should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense."

GUILTY as charged.

I only taught it (in community college), one semester in the mid 1980s, 
when our regular colleague was on sabbatical (Jack Olson, who wrote the 
book, along with Wil Price, our department chair), 
https://www.amazon.com/Elements-Structured-Cobol-Programming-Wilson/dp/0030580528/ 
It was a good class, and I don't think that I botched it too badly.


For some types of programming, (not MY favorite types of prograamming), 
COBOL is the right choice.  I hope that they don't try to rewrite that 
project in C, which is otherwise MY language of choice.


VOLUNTEERS??!?  He could have at least offered to pay in TP.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Apr  5 14:52:35 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 12:52:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <20200405123917.8321318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20200405123917.8321318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051241490.31022@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>    https://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Keys
> I don't recall if there's anough info there to create new keys without an
> original to copy. At one point I made a run of copies (after posting a call
> here); I suppose I could do so again.

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote:
> The key is a Chicago GRB2: cut 215 on an Ilco S1041T.  You can use a
> 1041T and cut it down.

If you have a "depth and space" book and know how to "code cut" keys, 
that's enough.  Depth and space data of where the cuts go, and how deep 
the 2 1 5 cuts are is needed.

Is SOME jurisdictions, it is "illegal" to code cut a key without PROOF 
that the requester owns the lock, such as lugging the machine, or at least 
the lock in the door, and possibly also having to provide a letter on 
company letterhead!

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Apr  5 14:53:58 2020
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 12:53:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Edsger Dijksta said, "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching 
> should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense."
>
I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he died 
before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Sun Apr  5 14:56:11 2020
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 15:56:11 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <b0d46fbc-83b3-c6a3-0a54-ef7b53e32c57@ieee.org>

There were a lot of differing opinions, some of which held out over 
time. Even Fred Brooks had to admit that David Parnas was right about 
data encapsulation


On 05/04/2020 15:53, geneb via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Edsger Dijksta said, "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its 
>> teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense."
>>
> I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he 
> died before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)
>
> g.
>
  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE, MCSE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Apr  5 15:13:53 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 13:13:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051303220.31022@shell.lmi.net>

>> They were told to update their software.
>> Now, 20 years later, they are looking for COBOL programmers, to start
>> the update project.

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Stefan Skoglund wrote:
> To be fair, in this case updating your software means:
>
> throw out the baby with the water
> build a completely new IT infrastructure with everything
> and expect things to work badly the next 5-8 years....
> long enough to hinder/(be a millstone around) the governor's re-
> election campagin
>
> and then in 15 years, be prepared to redo....
>
> Pundits like this steinberg is right and wrong - they doesn't
> acknowledge how expensive new fangled information technology is.

I notice that he is one who equates changing/updating software with 
security.


If a project is needed, and takes a long time, taking a long time is not a 
good reason to avoid getting started.

Napoleon ordered planting of a lot of trees.  I'm told that one of his 
officers didn't want to get around to it, because they would take a long 
time to grow; Napoleon said that that was a good reason to do it 
immediately.
(No, I can't find the quote)


From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Sun Apr  5 15:18:19 2020
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 13:18:19 -0700
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>

On 2020-Apr-05, at 6:05 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> I found time to follow Mattis?s suggestion today and I got some interesting results.
> 
> I powered the UC3842 with about 16V from a bench power supply. I lifted R32 so that the transformer would not supply it. I then used an isolating transformer to power a variac and applied the variac to the AC inlet. I also used a load board from a MicroVAX 2000 and an old RD53 disk as the load, so there should be enough load.
> 
> I found that I can vary the AC input up to a maximum of about 40VAC before the SCR triggers, the  5V output reaches about 400mV. If I raise the AC input more slowly, it will usually cut out before that, around 30VAC. I noticed that the inrush thermistors also get quite hot at these low AC voltages, I don?t know if this is because of the relatively low AC supply voltage, or if this indicates a problem of some kind.
> 
> The voltage coming out of L3 into the T1 ?bounces? somewhat. I guess this is because the AC input is only 20V or so, or it may be expected ripple from the smoothing capacitors? In the description below, the peaks of the bounces are used. Throughout the variation from 0VAC to 40VAC the duty cycle of the oscillation of the UC3842 output does not change, I guess because the output voltage has not reached its target value.
> 
> With the AC input at about 25VAC the circuit seems to be stable (apart from the bounces mentioned above). At this supply voltage, the voltage at the source of Q1 reaches 2V. The current sense resistor is 1 Ohm, which means 2A must be flowing through it at that time.
> 
> When the Q1 source is at 2V, the other end of R14 is at about 0.5V, which is just below the trigger voltage for the SCR. This makes sense because R14 and R15 form a voltage divider that looks to be nominally 25% of the Q1 source. Given the SCR nominally triggers at about 0.8V, this means that the current sense resistor is set to trigger the SCR at about 2.5A, I think. This would suggest that the duty cycle on Q1 is too high and causing too much current to be drawn. So presumably the feedback to the UC3842 is not working correctly.
> 
> I tried setting the AC input at 120V and using a one-shot sample. Q1 is switched for about 30ms and then there is a spike on the SCR gate to 2V and it triggers. The gate voltage then remains at 1V. However, there is no spike across the current sense resistor (R13), so I don?t know if the spike is because the SCR is being turned for some other reason. There is nothing unusual on the anode of D19 to cause it to trigger due to avalanche breakdown. I got the same result when the AC input was 220V. I wonder if the SCR is behaving slightly differently because I have lifted R32?
> 
> Since there might be a feedback problem, I looked at the VFB input to the UC3842 when doing a one-shot test at 240VAC. I can see VFB steadily rise over the period when Q1 switched, up to a maximum of 4V. I don?t really know if this is how it should behave though, but it seems to make logical sense. During all that time the duty cycle of Q1 does not change.
> 
> I am not too sure where to go from here. I hope the above makes sense. I would appreciate any further thoughts.


Switching power supplies are, to coin a phrase, voltage/current-ratio power translators.
They will attempt to adjust the (cycle-averaged) input-current demand in inverse proportion to the input voltage, to meet the power demand of the load.

When you load a switching supply, and run it with a low input voltage, it will attempt to increase the input-current demand, either with increased peak current or increased duty-cycle (ON-time of primary switching transistor(s)).

Suppose you have a load demand of 100W. At 100V input the input current needed is 1A.
At 10V input, the input current needed is 10A.

If a supply is not explicitly designed for low supply voltages, it can lead to excessive primary-side currents.
This is why it is a bad idea to 'run up' switching supplies from a variac or otherwise run them outside their specced input voltage range.

You don't say what the observed duty-cycle (ON-time) is. What would be expected is it's running 'wide-open' because it's trying to get enough energy through the transformer to meet the load demand while gasping for resources from the input because the input voltage is so low.

So from the scenario you've set up, it's difficult to discern whether the behaviour is normal or faulty (the scenario masks the otherwise-observed faulty behaviour).

All this is also dependant on how large your dummy load is (as a % of the rated max power output of the supply).

If you want to run at a low input voltage, remove or very lightly load the output.
From your schematic, there is a small load presented internally from various voltage dividers around the outputs, although not all the R values are in the schematic, so can't calc the current.
If you still get the over-current SCR triggering, suspicion could lean towards a short somewhere - a winding in the main transformer, secondary rectifiers or caps - anything presenting an excessive energy sink to the main switcher, including over-sensitivity of the crowbar circuits on the secondary side. The secondary crowbar circuit monitors the output voltages relative to a reference. You could scope-monitor the gate of the SCR over there.

The spike you mention on the primary-side SCR gate without a corresponding spike on R13 does seem odd, seeing scope traces pic could be interesting, perhaps scope the anode, the gate and R13. Possibility of some odd trigger fault in the SCR.
There is a small amount of filtering on the SCR-gate/over-current voltage divider (C18/2.2nF) so you would expect to a slightly averaged version of the voltage at R13 after the voltage divider (at the cap/gate).

Aside: You have R27 & R28 at 20+20 ohms in your schematic. This is an awfully low R for dropping the hundreds of supply V down to the 16V/low-current of the 3842 supply. For schematic accuracy, you might double-check the value of those.

10/10 for your tenacity in this repair attempt.



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Apr  5 15:20:09 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 13:20:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>

>> Edsger Dijksta said, "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching 
>> should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense."

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
> I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he died 
> before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)

well, close.
His BASIC quote is:
"It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that 
have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are 
mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."

Here is one copy of his 1975 paper, "How Do We Tell Truths That Might 
Hurt":
https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html

I don't know what language(s), if any, that he liked.

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Sun Apr  5 15:32:05 2020
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 21:32:05 +0100
Subject: OT: Weller soldering irons
Message-ID: <63651fc6-f95c-faa6-86f0-f7715a751302@dunnington.plus.com>

A few hours ago I started looking at three "smart" light switches that 
need LEDs replaced, and switched on the soldering iron, and ... nope. 
It's a Weller WP80 and it seems the sensor in the heating element has 
died.  I discovered that only after resetting and then dismantling the 
control unit to check it out with a DVM, of course.

Clearly I need either a new WP80 element, or a new soldering iron.  I 
could get a WSP80 for far less than the cost of a new element for the 
WP80, but I'd get the element faster.  So which, if any, is the better 
iron?  What would you guys do?

I begrudge paying UKP 92 for a new element.  That's the cheapest I could 
find -- /half/ the most expensive price -- but just seems ludicrously 
extortionate for what amounts to a piece of swaged stainless steel tube 
with a short length of resistance wire and an even shorter length of 
thermocouple wire inside it.  I could buy a whole new solder station 
with more bells and whistles, albeit of a "lesser brand", for less.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Apr  5 15:37:11 2020
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 13:37:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
>> I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he died 
>> before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)
>
> well, close.
> His BASIC quote is:
> "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have 
> had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally 
> mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
>

That doesn't explain the millions of kids that got their start in BASIC 
and grew up to learn skills that could wipe the floor with him...

> Here is one copy of his 1975 paper, "How Do We Tell Truths That Might Hurt":
> https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html
>

The problem is that it's not a "truth", it's horseshit, plain and simple. 
People that think so much of themselves that they consider their opinions 
to have the weight of fact just make me froth at the mouth. :)

> I don't know what language(s), if any, that he liked.

Then he should have sat down, shut up, and let the adults talk. ;)

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sun Apr  5 16:02:15 2020
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 17:02:15 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <15FAC08B-6B2E-4BFC-99BA-56CB055091A0@comcast.net>

I'm reminded of a T-shirt company that was around when I was in college, named "Outer products".  They had various math and physics related shirts, for example with Maxwell's equations (your choice of differential or integral form).  Also one with the first 4 lines of the Odyssey.

For computer geeks they had quite a bunch, including this particularly cryptic one for COBOL programmers

 (.)(.)
IKF4084I

	paul


From albiorix at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 16:27:48 2020
From: albiorix at gmail.com (Neil Thompson)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 23:27:48 +0200
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CA+2pV57Ak9PuuJQQHddZ5GMHHtae3Wm+H-UnUeAFT60cWeaEKQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
comments were full of horseshit.  In my opinion, it's the ability to
translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
programming, and anyone who has managed to learn (particularly on their
own, as many of us did) that ability has learned something that transcends
the language (or tool) you use to implement the algorithm.  When I first
started programming professionally, we had "programmers" (or sometimes
designers) who specified the algorithms and "coders" who implemented them.
That never worked well

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 22:37, geneb via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
> >> I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he
> died
> >> before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)
> >
> > well, close.
> > His BASIC quote is:
> > "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that
> have
> > had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are
> mentally
> > mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
> >
>
> That doesn't explain the millions of kids that got their start in BASIC
> and grew up to learn skills that could wipe the floor with him...
>
> > Here is one copy of his 1975 paper, "How Do We Tell Truths That Might
> Hurt":
> > https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html
> >
>
> The problem is that it's not a "truth", it's horseshit, plain and simple.
> People that think so much of themselves that they consider their opinions
> to have the weight of fact just make me froth at the mouth. :)
>
> > I don't know what language(s), if any, that he liked.
>
> Then he should have sat down, shut up, and let the adults talk. ;)
>
> g.
>
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
>

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun Apr  5 16:53:32 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 22:53:32 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert
via
> cctalk
> Sent: 05 April 2020 21:18
> To: Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General Discussion:
On-Topic
> and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU
> 
> 
> Switching power supplies are, to coin a phrase, voltage/current-ratio
power
> translators.
> They will attempt to adjust the (cycle-averaged) input-current demand in
> inverse proportion to the input voltage, to meet the power demand of the
load.
> 
> When you load a switching supply, and run it with a low input voltage, it
will
> attempt to increase the input-current demand, either with increased peak
> current or increased duty-cycle (ON-time of primary switching
transistor(s)).
> 
> Suppose you have a load demand of 100W. At 100V input the input current
> needed is 1A.
> At 10V input, the input current needed is 10A.
> 
> If a supply is not explicitly designed for low supply voltages, it can
lead to
> excessive primary-side currents.
> This is why it is a bad idea to 'run up' switching supplies from a variac
or
> otherwise run them outside their specced input voltage range.
> 
> You don't say what the observed duty-cycle (ON-time) is. What would be
> expected is it's running 'wide-open' because it's trying to get enough
energy
> through the transformer to meet the load demand while gasping for
resources
> from the input because the input voltage is so low.
> 
> So from the scenario you've set up, it's difficult to discern whether the
> behaviour is normal or faulty (the scenario masks the otherwise-observed
> faulty behaviour).
> 



I have to say that when I was thinking about this, I did wonder if the
problem was that it was trying to raise the output voltage with not a lot of
input, and that therefore the duty cycle would be too high. I will remove
the variac from the equation. For the record I was seeing a duty cycle of
about 50%. In later testing at 240VAC the duty cycle does seem a lot lower.


> All this is also dependant on how large your dummy load is (as a % of the
rated
> max power output of the supply).
> 
> If you want to run at a low input voltage, remove or very lightly load the
output.
> From your schematic, there is a small load presented internally from
various
> voltage dividers around the outputs, although not all the R values are in
the
> schematic, so can't calc the current.
> If you still get the over-current SCR triggering, suspicion could lean
towards a
> short somewhere - a winding in the main transformer, secondary rectifiers
or
> caps - anything presenting an excessive energy sink to the main switcher,
> including over-sensitivity of the crowbar circuits on the secondary side.
The
> secondary crowbar circuit monitors the output voltages relative to a
reference.
> You could scope-monitor the gate of the SCR over there.


I have already done a ringing test on the main transformer, and I think that
it is OK. One of the windings does not ring very well, but I think it is one
that has few windings and supplies the on-going power to the primary side
once the PSU has started up. I have also done a bit of testing on the
secondary rectifiers, but not found anything so far. I will look at
secondary side again more closely.

> 
> The spike you mention on the primary-side SCR gate without a corresponding
> spike on R13 does seem odd, seeing scope traces pic could be interesting,
> perhaps scope the anode, the gate and R13. Possibility of some odd trigger
> fault in the SCR.

I have obtained a scope trace as you suggest. R32 is still lifted so the
UC3842 is powered by the bench PSU, but I am using the full 240VAC (no
variac). The channels are:
1.	Ch1. 555 timer.
2.	Ch2. D19 Anode
3.	Ch3. D19 Gate.
4.	Ch4. Q1 Source.
The picture is here:
https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-control-pulse-width-modul
ator.png

> There is a small amount of filtering on the SCR-gate/over-current voltage
> divider (C18/2.2nF) so you would expect to a slightly averaged version of
the
> voltage at R13 after the voltage divider (at the cap/gate).
> 
> Aside: You have R27 & R28 at 20+20 ohms in your schematic. This is an
awfully
> low R for dropping the hundreds of supply V down to the 16V/low-current of
the
> 3842 supply. For schematic accuracy, you might double-check the value of
> those.

You are correct, I have mixed up the values with R30 and R31, the correct
value is 15K. I have updated the schematic, and rearranged it to look
diagrammatically more like a sample diagram in the TI datasheet for the
UC3842. The updated schematic is here:
https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-control-pulse-width-modul
ator.png


> 
> 10/10 for your tenacity in this repair attempt.

Thank you, I am sure it will be simple when I find the problem, and I am
learning a lot.



From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Apr  5 17:05:12 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 15:05:12 -0700
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <CA+2pV57Ak9PuuJQQHddZ5GMHHtae3Wm+H-UnUeAFT60cWeaEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CA+2pV57Ak9PuuJQQHddZ5GMHHtae3Wm+H-UnUeAFT60cWeaEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4428dfe9-a375-dd04-5ed5-613aef4aa497@sydex.com>

On 4/5/20 2:27 PM, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
> I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
> comments were full of horseshit.  In my opinion, it's the ability to
> translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
> programming, and anyone who has managed to learn (particularly on their
> own, as many of us did) that ability has learned something that transcends
> the language (or tool) you use to implement the algorithm.  When I first
> started programming professionally, we had "programmers" (or sometimes
> designers) who specified the algorithms and "coders" who implemented them.
> That never worked well

Well, IIRC< Dijkstra hated the IBM 1620 too, but lots of work was done
with it.

So, there are opinions and then there is reality.  In that respect,
nothing's changed.

--Chuck


From lproven at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 17:05:08 2020
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 00:05:08 +0200
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <15FAC08B-6B2E-4BFC-99BA-56CB055091A0@comcast.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <15FAC08B-6B2E-4BFC-99BA-56CB055091A0@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEAed-9LBFP6B3k6NRzoX1-B3rDOj2HG3HKsdOvVfp6TQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 23:02, Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> I'm reminded of a T-shirt company that was around when I was in college, named "Outer products".  They had various math and physics related shirts, for example with Maxwell's equations (your choice of differential or integral form).  Also one with the first 4 lines of the Odyssey.
>
> For computer geeks they had quite a bunch, including this particularly cryptic one for COBOL programmers
>
>  (.)(.)
> IKF4084I

ILLOGICAL USE OF PARENTHESES OR RELATIONALS
           ACCEPTED WITH DOUBTS AS TO MEANING.
...?

The T-shirts are still out there, I am amused to see.



-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Sun Apr  5 17:17:56 2020
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 23:17:56 +0100
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <CA+2pV57Ak9PuuJQQHddZ5GMHHtae3Wm+H-UnUeAFT60cWeaEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CA+2pV57Ak9PuuJQQHddZ5GMHHtae3Wm+H-UnUeAFT60cWeaEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f4f9174b-aafa-b17c-ec44-7bd8287686c2@ntlworld.com>

On 05/04/2020 22:27, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
> I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
> comments were full of horseshit.  In my opinion, it's the ability to
> translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
> programming,


Dijkstra was a computer scientist not a computer programmer. The two are 
only tangentially related!


I only ever managed to get to one of his guest lectures, which I found 
to be very entertaining. I'm glad I was never one of his students :-)


Antonio


-- 
Antonio Carlini
antonio at acarlini.com


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Apr  5 17:28:50 2020
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 15:28:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <CA+2pV57Ak9PuuJQQHddZ5GMHHtae3Wm+H-UnUeAFT60cWeaEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CA+2pV57Ak9PuuJQQHddZ5GMHHtae3Wm+H-UnUeAFT60cWeaEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051528050.1182@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:

> I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
> comments were full of horseshit.  In my opinion, it's the ability to
> translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
> programming, and anyone who has managed to learn (particularly on their
> own, as many of us did) that ability has learned something that transcends
> the language (or tool) you use to implement the algorithm.  When I first
> started programming professionally, we had "programmers" (or sometimes
> designers) who specified the algorithms and "coders" who implemented them.
> That never worked well
>
Yep.  You can write horrible code in /any/ language. ;)

BTW, I scanned & uploaded this last week.  Oddly relevant.
https://archive.org/details/cobolcodingform

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From pschow at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 17:28:54 2020
From: pschow at gmail.com (Peter Schow)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 16:28:54 -0600
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <f4f9174b-aafa-b17c-ec44-7bd8287686c2@ntlworld.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CA+2pV57Ak9PuuJQQHddZ5GMHHtae3Wm+H-UnUeAFT60cWeaEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f4f9174b-aafa-b17c-ec44-7bd8287686c2@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CANaTVhVWr4jBt0fPB52z+vc6K8neKvCnu0KQJ=3UFRW1Z_u6xQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 4:18 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Dijkstra was a computer scientist not a computer programmer. The two are
> only tangentially related!

It's funny that you say this because Dijkstra explictly calls himself
a programmer in his 1972 ACM Turing Award Lecture:

"I married, and Dutch marriage rites require you to state your
professionand I stated that i was a programmer."

From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Sun Apr  5 18:12:20 2020
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 16:12:20 -0700
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>

On 2020-Apr-05, at 2:53 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
> I have obtained a scope trace as you suggest. R32 is still lifted so the
> UC3842 is powered by the bench PSU, but I am using the full 240VAC (no
> variac). The channels are:
> 1.	Ch1. 555 timer.
> 2.	Ch2. D19 Anode
> 3.	Ch3. D19 Gate.
> 4.	Ch4. Q1 Source.
> The picture is here:
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-control-pulse-width-modul
> ator.png
> 
> 
> You are correct, I have mixed up the values with R30 and R31, the correct
> value is 15K. I have updated the schematic, and rearranged it to look
> diagrammatically more like a sample diagram in the TI datasheet for the
> UC3842. The updated schematic is here:
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-control-pulse-width-modul
> ator.png


The links for pic and schematic don't seem to be correct.
I picked up a modified 15K+15K schematic from the blog web page but haven't found the scope pic.

Keep in mind at a low scope timebase resolution (long timebase) (as per your previous scope pics), a brief spike on R13 may not show up in the scope display (too brief for the discrete per pixel display interval, but it could have charged C18 enough where it will linger longer and show up on the display. DSOs can present some vagaries like this. If you haven't done so, examine the traces at a higher timebase resolution (it could have been recorded in the sampling, just not being seen).


From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun Apr  5 18:22:49 2020
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2020 18:22:49 -0500
Subject: OT: Weller soldering irons
In-Reply-To: <63651fc6-f95c-faa6-86f0-f7715a751302@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <63651fc6-f95c-faa6-86f0-f7715a751302@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <5E8A6849.2000107@pico-systems.com>

On 04/05/2020 03:32 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
> A few hours ago I started looking at three "smart" light 
> switches that need LEDs replaced, and switched on the 
> soldering iron, and ... nope. It's a Weller WP80 and it 
> seems the sensor in the heating element has died.  I 
> discovered that only after resetting and then dismantling 
> the control unit to check it out with a DVM, of course.
>
> Clearly I need either a new WP80 element, or a new 
> soldering iron.  I could get a WSP80 for far less than the 
> cost of a new element for the WP80, but I'd get the 
> element faster.  So which, if any, is the better iron?  
> What would you guys do?
>
> I begrudge paying UKP 92 for a new element.  That's the 
> cheapest I could find -- /half/ the most expensive price 
> -- but just seems ludicrously extortionate for what 
> amounts to a piece of swaged stainless steel tube with a 
> short length of resistance wire and an even shorter length 
> of thermocouple wire inside it.  I could buy a whole new 
> solder station with more bells and whistles, albeit of a 
> "lesser brand", for less.
>
Is the sensor a separate component?  On the EC1302 and 
several other models, the sensor is
a separate piece that fits up through the center of the 
heater and poked into the back of the
replaceable tip.  I got one for that iron years ago from, I 
think, Newark.  So, you might try
at Farnell and see if they have spares.

Jon

From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Sun Apr  5 18:33:53 2020
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 18:33:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <CANaTVhVWr4jBt0fPB52z+vc6K8neKvCnu0KQJ=3UFRW1Z_u6xQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CA+2pV57Ak9PuuJQQHddZ5GMHHtae3Wm+H-UnUeAFT60cWeaEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f4f9174b-aafa-b17c-ec44-7bd8287686c2@ntlworld.com>
 <CANaTVhVWr4jBt0fPB52z+vc6K8neKvCnu0KQJ=3UFRW1Z_u6xQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <482599393.60434.1586129633513@email.ionos.com>

> On April 5, 2020 at 5:28 PM Peter Schow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 4:18 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:> Dijkstra was a computer scientist not a computer programmer. The two areonly tangentially related!It's funny that you say this because Dijkstra explictly calls himselfa programmer in his 1972 ACM Turing Award Lecture:
> "I married, and Dutch marriage rites require you to state yourprofessionand I stated that i was a programmer."


He called himself a programmer in 1957, and even that description wasn't allowed.  I don't think the term "computer scientist" existed yet.

Another two years later, in 1957, I married and Dutch marriage rites require you to state your profession and I stated that I was a programmer. But the municipal authorities of the town of Amsterdam did not accept it on the grounds that there was no such profession. And, believe it or not, but under the heading ?profession? my marriage act shows the ridiculous entry ?theoretical physicist?!

https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD03xx/EWD340.html

Will

From cube1 at charter.net  Sun Apr  5 18:39:41 2020
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 18:39:41 -0500
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <136f1f7b-bc76-f0fd-14c2-5307f5c2da5b@sydex.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <ae9dcbdb-013f-45e5-6778-ade1f1ed38ec@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042159270.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <136f1f7b-bc76-f0fd-14c2-5307f5c2da5b@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <75bdd628-6cba-d630-d738-7d6563b76f8b@charter.net>

On 4/5/2020 12:47 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/4/20 10:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> Stories like this abound.  Wasn't California DMV running RCA Spectrolas
> well into the 80s?
> 
> --Chuck
> 

I kind of doubt that, unless they had a version of IBM's IMS for it --
which I find unlikely, though I suppose maybe they had some of those
along side real (or compatible) IBM hardware.

I worked for Wisconsin DOT from 1975 until 2012.  Just before I got
there, they had completed their own quite competent DMBS, which was
written (in assembler) because IBM's IMS was too inefficient and ADABAS
was too expensive.  (That DBMS was still running some production when I
left, in parallel with DB2 but has since been retired.)

They learned IMS had issues when they talked with California, who told
them that at any one time a substantial part of their (either Drivers or
Motor Vehicle) database was offline at ANY time because it needed
reorganization.

I did write some COBOL on the IBM 1410 which I worked on while I was a
student (COBOL for which was surprisingly capable), DOS/VS, OS/360, MVS,
and so on.  I found it to be:

- Very cumbersome and visually inefficient
- Error prone
- Harder than heck to read

So, mildly better than Assembler, but I'll take C and its descendents
over COBOL any day for anything.  Indeed I was responsible for
introducing C into our organization in the 1980's -- I was exposed to
it, and UNIX just about the same time I went to work for WisDOT.

JRJ

From brain at jbrain.com  Sun Apr  5 18:55:40 2020
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 18:55:40 -0500
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <15FAC08B-6B2E-4BFC-99BA-56CB055091A0@comcast.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <15FAC08B-6B2E-4BFC-99BA-56CB055091A0@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <25d82f27-8687-04b1-f1e2-9ad5b953c264@jbrain.com>

On 4/5/2020 4:02 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> I'm reminded of a T-shirt company that was around when I was in college, named "Outer products".  They had various math and physics related shirts, for example with Maxwell's equations (your choice of differential or integral form).  Also one with the first 4 lines of the Odyssey.
>
> For computer geeks they had quite a bunch, including this particularly cryptic one for COBOL programmers
>
>   (.)(.)
> IKF4084I
>
> 	paul
>
https://www.zazzle.com/ikf4084i_c_t_shirt-235922162936523884

-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com


From aperry at snowmoose.com  Sun Apr  5 18:56:54 2020
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 16:56:54 -0700
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <75bdd628-6cba-d630-d738-7d6563b76f8b@charter.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <ae9dcbdb-013f-45e5-6778-ade1f1ed38ec@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042159270.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <136f1f7b-bc76-f0fd-14c2-5307f5c2da5b@sydex.com>
 <75bdd628-6cba-d630-d738-7d6563b76f8b@charter.net>
Message-ID: <9ad6402e-c43d-a39d-4689-8d0982ed3991@snowmoose.com>



On 4/5/20 4:39 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/5/2020 12:47 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> On 4/4/20 10:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>
>> Stories like this abound.  Wasn't California DMV running RCA Spectrolas
>> well into the 80s?
>>
>> --Chuck
>>
> 
> I did write some COBOL on the IBM 1410 which I worked on while I was a
> student (COBOL for which was surprisingly capable), DOS/VS, OS/360, MVS,
> and so on.  I found it to be:

I got my Computer Science degree in '86 and most of the programming for 
my classwork was in C and ran on BSD UNIX on a 11/750. I also worked in 
the school's computer center on a DECsystem-20.

My first job out of school was doing system software at Burroughs. The 
stuff that I was working on initially ran on all three lines of 
Burroughs mainframes sold at the time and, at Burroughs then, that meant 
it was written in COBOL. So, my first week at Burroughs was spent 
learning COBOL.

At school, everyone said that COBOL was evil. But after I had worked 
with it for a while, though I thought it was verbose, I didn't find it 
that bad to work with.

alan

From mattislind at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 19:04:03 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 02:04:03 +0200
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <CABr82SJhqHgoPNC8uSWwq2FB8qhYY3rtBDiC_7fxiJk8mbZBHg@mail.gmail.com>

Den s?n 5 apr. 2020 kl 22:18 skrev Brent Hilpert via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org>:

> On 2020-Apr-05, at 6:05 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> > I found time to follow Mattis?s suggestion today and I got some
> interesting results.
> >
> > I powered the UC3842 with about 16V from a bench power supply. I lifted
> R32 so that the transformer would not supply it. I then used an isolating
> transformer to power a variac and applied the variac to the AC inlet. I
> also used a load board from a MicroVAX 2000 and an old RD53 disk as the
> load, so there should be enough load.
> >
> > I found that I can vary the AC input up to a maximum of about 40VAC
> before the SCR triggers, the  5V output reaches about 400mV. If I raise the
> AC input more slowly, it will usually cut out before that, around 30VAC. I
> noticed that the inrush thermistors also get quite hot at these low AC
> voltages, I don?t know if this is because of the relatively low AC supply
> voltage, or if this indicates a problem of some kind.
> >
> > The voltage coming out of L3 into the T1 ?bounces? somewhat. I guess
> this is because the AC input is only 20V or so, or it may be expected
> ripple from the smoothing capacitors? In the description below, the peaks
> of the bounces are used. Throughout the variation from 0VAC to 40VAC the
> duty cycle of the oscillation of the UC3842 output does not change, I guess
> because the output voltage has not reached its target value.
> >
> > With the AC input at about 25VAC the circuit seems to be stable (apart
> from the bounces mentioned above). At this supply voltage, the voltage at
> the source of Q1 reaches 2V. The current sense resistor is 1 Ohm, which
> means 2A must be flowing through it at that time.
> >
> > When the Q1 source is at 2V, the other end of R14 is at about 0.5V,
> which is just below the trigger voltage for the SCR. This makes sense
> because R14 and R15 form a voltage divider that looks to be nominally 25%
> of the Q1 source. Given the SCR nominally triggers at about 0.8V, this
> means that the current sense resistor is set to trigger the SCR at about
> 2.5A, I think. This would suggest that the duty cycle on Q1 is too high and
> causing too much current to be drawn. So presumably the feedback to the
> UC3842 is not working correctly.
> >
> > I tried setting the AC input at 120V and using a one-shot sample. Q1 is
> switched for about 30ms and then there is a spike on the SCR gate to 2V and
> it triggers. The gate voltage then remains at 1V. However, there is no
> spike across the current sense resistor (R13), so I don?t know if the spike
> is because the SCR is being turned for some other reason. There is nothing
> unusual on the anode of D19 to cause it to trigger due to avalanche
> breakdown. I got the same result when the AC input was 220V. I wonder if
> the SCR is behaving slightly differently because I have lifted R32?
> >
> > Since there might be a feedback problem, I looked at the VFB input to
> the UC3842 when doing a one-shot test at 240VAC. I can see VFB steadily
> rise over the period when Q1 switched, up to a maximum of 4V. I don?t
> really know if this is how it should behave though, but it seems to make
> logical sense. During all that time the duty cycle of Q1 does not change.
> >
> > I am not too sure where to go from here. I hope the above makes sense. I
> would appreciate any further thoughts.
>
>
> Switching power supplies are, to coin a phrase, voltage/current-ratio
> power translators.
> They will attempt to adjust the (cycle-averaged) input-current demand in
> inverse proportion to the input voltage, to meet the power demand of the
> load.
>

I am not sure what you mean here. A SMMPS mode chop up the input voltage
and feed it through a transformer. Then it can vary the duty cycle to to
regulate the output voltage in case of load variation or input voltage
variation.


>
> When you load a switching supply, and run it with a low input voltage, it
> will attempt to increase the input-current demand, either with increased
> peak current or increased duty-cycle (ON-time of primary switching
> transistor(s)).
>
> Suppose you have a load demand of 100W. At 100V input the input current
> needed is 1A.
> At 10V input, the input current needed is 10A.
>

NO, that is not how it works. I think you are confusing things. All SMPS
has a certain turn ratio. There is nothing magic with a SMPS PSU rather
than a normal iron core transformer. It does transform the primary side
voltage into a secondary side voltage based on turn ratio like any standard
iron core transfomer. But at a higher frequency since then we can have a
smaller transformer. For your calculation to hold some kind of magic duty
cycle will be needed.
The advantage of a SMPS mode PSU is that you also can very the duty cycle
and thus be able to regulate the output voltage as it is feed back to the
control circuitry.

Your statement only holds for the interval the SMPS PSU is designed to
operate in. If it is designed for 110 V +/- 20% it will draw 20% current
when at lower limit. And vice versa. But now we are operating it outside
its specification. In that case the SMPSU PSU will not magically generate
the specified output voltage at a much lower outside spec input voltage.

It is clearly shown by the numbers given by Rob that with less input
voltage there will be less output. I.e 0.4V. No magic involved.

However. If we design a PSU for 10V input with another turn ratio then,
when in normal operating mode it will require 10 A as per your example. But
it is not the case here.




>
> If a supply is not explicitly designed for low supply voltages, it can
> lead to excessive primary-side currents.
> This is why it is a bad idea to 'run up' switching supplies from a variac
> or otherwise run them outside their specced input voltage range.
>
>
This is not a bad idea. With a variac you can study  the behaviour of the
switching transistor much better. I always do it and it works
perfectly well. I measure current and voltage over the transistor and there
is no over current because of overload. Rather since the output voltage
will be very low the power developed over the load will be
significantly less.

What is bad though is when trying to attach a variac to a SMPS mode PSU
directly without feeding the control circuitry from a bench supply. You
will most likely not get it to do anything until the input voltage is
rather high.

Now this is not a forward converter, but a Flyback type. I.e the
transformer has an airgap in it. The energy is stored in the magnetic field
and when the transistor turns off the energy will be delivered to the
secondary side. In a flyback design the current through the transistor will
rise linearly until turn off. Also there is no maximum duty cycle, but you
mustn't saturate the core.



> You don't say what the observed duty-cycle (ON-time) is. What would be
> expected is it's running 'wide-open' because it's trying to get enough
> energy through the transformer to meet the load demand while gasping for
> resources from the input because the input voltage is so low.


> So from the scenario you've set up, it's difficult to discern whether the
> behaviour is normal or faulty (the scenario masks the otherwise-observed
> faulty behaviour).
>
> All this is also dependant on how large your dummy load is (as a % of the
> rated max power output of the supply).
>
> If you want to run at a low input voltage, remove or very lightly load the
> output.
> From your schematic, there is a small load presented internally from
> various voltage dividers around the outputs, although not all the R values
> are in the schematic, so can't calc the current.
> If you still get the over-current SCR triggering, suspicion could lean
> towards a short somewhere - a winding in the main transformer, secondary
> rectifiers or caps - anything presenting an excessive energy sink to the
> main switcher, including over-sensitivity of the crowbar circuits on the
> secondary side. The secondary crowbar circuit monitors the output voltages
> relative to a reference. You could scope-monitor the gate of the SCR over
> there.
>

I would agree that a check for shorts in the output stages can be of
interest. Possibly disconnect one output stage at a time and see if that
make a difference.


>
> The spike you mention on the primary-side SCR gate without a corresponding
> spike on R13 does seem odd, seeing scope traces pic could be interesting,
> perhaps scope the anode, the gate and R13. Possibility of some odd trigger
> fault in the SCR.
> There is a small amount of filtering on the SCR-gate/over-current voltage
> divider (C18/2.2nF) so you would expect to a slightly averaged version of
> the voltage at R13 after the voltage divider (at the cap/gate).
>
> Aside: You have R27 & R28 at 20+20 ohms in your schematic. This is an
> awfully low R for dropping the hundreds of supply V down to the
> 16V/low-current of the 3842 supply. For schematic accuracy, you might
> double-check the value of those.
>
> 10/10 for your tenacity in this repair attempt.
>
>
>

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  5 19:12:59 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 20:12:59 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051528050.1182@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
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 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
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 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051528050.1182@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB08782E24DE9DDC0EB0BF15AAEDC20@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

On 4/5/20 6:28 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
>> comments were full of horseshit.? In my opinion, it's the ability to
>> translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
>> programming, and anyone who has managed to learn (particularly on their
>> own, as many of us did) that ability has learned something that 
>> transcends
>> the language (or tool) you use to implement the algorithm.? When I first
>> started programming professionally, we had "programmers" (or sometimes
>> designers) who specified the algorithms and "coders" who implemented 
>> them.
>> That never worked well
>>
> Yep.? You can write horrible code in /any/ language. ;)
> 
> BTW, I scanned & uploaded this last week.? Oddly relevant.
> https://archive.org/details/cobolcodingform

I still have lots of them.  And Printer Output Forms.  And Fortran
Programming Forms.  And all kinds of other Programming forms.  And
Flow Chart Forms.  You know all that stuff we actually used to
engineer programs before the software engineers came along and said
we were all doing wrong.

bill


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  5 19:13:59 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 20:13:59 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <CANaTVhVWr4jBt0fPB52z+vc6K8neKvCnu0KQJ=3UFRW1Z_u6xQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
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 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CA+2pV57Ak9PuuJQQHddZ5GMHHtae3Wm+H-UnUeAFT60cWeaEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f4f9174b-aafa-b17c-ec44-7bd8287686c2@ntlworld.com>
 <CANaTVhVWr4jBt0fPB52z+vc6K8neKvCnu0KQJ=3UFRW1Z_u6xQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB08785F7AFE983A50159F6EC3EDC20@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

On 4/5/20 6:28 PM, Peter Schow via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 4:18 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> Dijkstra was a computer scientist not a computer programmer. The two are
>> only tangentially related!
> 
> It's funny that you say this because Dijkstra explictly calls himself
> a programmer in his 1972 ACM Turing Award Lecture:
> 
> "I married, and Dutch marriage rites require you to state your
> professionand I stated that i was a programmer."
> 

Claiming it doesn't necessarily make it so.

bill


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Apr  5 19:25:27 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 17:25:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051528050.1182@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CA+2pV57Ak9PuuJQQHddZ5GMHHtae3Wm+H-UnUeAFT60cWeaEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051528050.1182@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051724070.31022@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb via cctalk wrote:
> Yep.  You can write horrible code in /any/ language. ;)

. . . and a REAL programmer can write FORTRAN in any language.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Apr  5 19:40:44 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 17:40:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051730470.31022@shell.lmi.net>

>> well, close.
>> His BASIC quote is:
>> "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that 
>> have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are 
>> mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
>> Here is one copy of his 1975 paper, "How Do We Tell Truths That Might 
>> Hurt":
>> https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
> That doesn't explain the millions of kids that got their start in BASIC and 
> grew up to learn skills that could wipe the floor with him...

I still believe that the best FIRST exposure to computer programming 
should be BASIC.  VERY FIRST program should have instant gratification, 
without having had to already learn underlying structures, variable 
types, how to run a compiler, etc.  After creating first program, and a 
few more, in a very short time, it would then be sensible to evaluate 
what kind of programming is most interesting, and switch to the most 
appropriate language.  Having already created a few token programs, it is 
then less onerous to learn compilers, data types, system overhead, 
"ENVIRONMENT DIVISION", etc.


Q: If Bill Gates hadn't written a BASIC interpreter, where would we be 
now?



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sun Apr  5 19:44:20 2020
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 20:44:20 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051730470.31022@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051730470.31022@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <70d72ec7-d0e8-0e83-0a86-54eb1191d531@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2020-04-05 8:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> well, close.
>>> His BASIC quote is:
>>> "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students
>>> that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers
>>> they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
>>> Here is one copy of his 1975 paper, "How Do We Tell Truths That Might
>>> Hurt":
>>> https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html
> 
> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
>> That doesn't explain the millions of kids that got their start in
>> BASIC and grew up to learn skills that could wipe the floor with him...
> 
> I still believe that the best FIRST exposure to computer programming
> should be BASIC.? VERY FIRST program should have instant gratification,
> without having had to already learn underlying structures, variable
> types, how to run a compiler, etc.? After creating first program, and a
> few more, in a very short time, it would then be sensible to evaluate
> what kind of programming is most interesting, and switch to the most
> appropriate language.? Having already created a few token programs, it
> is then less onerous to learn compilers, data types, system overhead,
> "ENVIRONMENT DIVISION", etc.
> 
> 
> Q: If Bill Gates hadn't written a BASIC interpreter, where would we be now?
> 
> 

Sounds like you've never heard of Lisp.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Apr  5 19:53:24 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 17:53:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <70d72ec7-d0e8-0e83-0a86-54eb1191d531@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051730470.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <70d72ec7-d0e8-0e83-0a86-54eb1191d531@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051749200.31022@shell.lmi.net>

>> I still believe that the best FIRST exposure to computer programming
>> should be BASIC.? VERY FIRST program should have instant gratification,
>> without having had to already learn underlying structures, variable
>> types, how to run a compiler, etc.? After creating first program, and a
>> few more, in a very short time, it would then be sensible to evaluate
>> what kind of programming is most interesting, and switch to the most
>> appropriate language.? Having already created a few token programs, it
>> is then less onerous to learn compilers, data types, system overhead,
>> "ENVIRONMENT DIVISION", etc.

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Toby Thain wrote:
> Sounds like you've never heard of Lisp.

LISP is a reasonable alternative starter language.
I PREFER  BASIC for beginners, because I have met a few that have 
difficulty fully understanding parentheses, and BASIC is a trivial 
transfer to FORTRAN and a few other languages in that group.




From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Sun Apr  5 20:02:17 2020
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 02:02:17 +0100
Subject: OT: Weller soldering irons
In-Reply-To: <5E8A6849.2000107@pico-systems.com>
References: <63651fc6-f95c-faa6-86f0-f7715a751302@dunnington.plus.com>
 <5E8A6849.2000107@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <19301c17-528f-5256-bef1-3a4deda14494@dunnington.plus.com>

On 06/04/2020 00:22, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 04/05/2020 03:32 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
>> A few hours ago I started looking at three "smart" light switches that 
>> need LEDs replaced, and switched on the soldering iron, and ... nope. 
>> It's a Weller WP80 and it seems the sensor in the heating element has 
>> died.

> Is the sensor a separate component?

Sadly, no.  That's the first thing I thought of.  The heater and sensor 
are integral with the stainless steel shaft and I can't see any way to 
get them out without destroying the shaft.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sun Apr  5 20:46:08 2020
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 19:46:08 -0600
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <70d72ec7-d0e8-0e83-0a86-54eb1191d531@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051730470.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <70d72ec7-d0e8-0e83-0a86-54eb1191d531@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <5bd46f04-a87c-0f0f-52d7-e51aea29e4dc@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 4/5/2020 6:44 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote:

>> Q: If Bill Gates hadn't written a BASIC interpreter, where would we be now?
>>
>>
> 
> Sounds like you've never heard of Lisp.
> 

All the old programmers speak with a LISP.
I view computer science ... teaching is what 'trending now' since
schools promote grinding out students, not teaching real world problems.
As for Gates, the right place at the right time, and having access to a 
main frame.

From spc at conman.org  Sun Apr  5 21:25:51 2020
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 22:25:51 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <20200406022551.GP22036@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin via cctalk once stated:
> >>Edsger Dijksta said, "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching 
> >>should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense."
> 
> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
> >I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he died 
> >before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)
> 
> well, close.
> His BASIC quote is:
> "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that 
> have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are 
> mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
> 
> Here is one copy of his 1975 paper, "How Do We Tell Truths That Might 
> Hurt":
> https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html
> 
> I don't know what language(s), if any, that he liked.

  Math.

  -spc (Had some comp-sci profs who didn't like programming or computers)



From cube1 at charter.net  Sun Apr  5 21:54:31 2020
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 21:54:31 -0500
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <5bd46f04-a87c-0f0f-52d7-e51aea29e4dc@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051730470.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <70d72ec7-d0e8-0e83-0a86-54eb1191d531@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5bd46f04-a87c-0f0f-52d7-e51aea29e4dc@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <436eb38e-fbb3-ff84-37f7-6fc25f96de06@charter.net>

On 4/5/2020 8:46 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/5/2020 6:44 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote:
> 
>>> Q: If Bill Gates hadn't written a BASIC interpreter, where would we
>>> be now?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Sounds like you've never heard of Lisp.
>>
> 
> All the old programmers speak with a LISP.
> I view computer science ... teaching is what 'trending now' since
> schools promote grinding out students, not teaching real world problems.
> As for Gates, the right place at the right time, and having access to a
> main frame.

On 4/5/2020 8:46 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:> On 4/5/2020 6:44 PM, Toby
Thain via cctalk wrote:
>
>>> Q: If Bill Gates hadn't written a BASIC interpreter, where would we
>>> be now?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Sounds like you've never heard of Lisp.
>>
>
> All the old programmers speak with a LISP.
> I view computer science ... teaching is what 'trending now' since
> schools promote grinding out students, not teaching real world problems.
> As for Gates, the right place at the right time, and having access to a
> main frame.
Well, I'd have called the PDP-10 a minicomputer nonetheless, but that's
just me.  ;)  Plus, he was essentially stealing campus resources for
personal aggrandizement.  Its one thing to mess around learning stuff
outside of a course setting.  Quite another to take that time, without
even asking, in order to turn a profit.  Not a fan.

As for Lots of Insipid Stupid Parentheses - I can't see that as a
beginning language.  For anyone.  Of the many many (well over a hundred)
programmers I worked with outside of a university setting, less than a
handful had even *heard* of it.

<RANT>

As for teaching, there are multiple needs.  One size doesn't fit all
institutions.   One is plain old programming.  That does get taught in
computer science at universities, but it really ought to be just a means
to an end: learning about how programs get written, how to compile them,
data structures, semaphores, and so on.

During my ECE & CS studies, aside from my student job, I got exposed to:
  BASIC (1 day) and FORTRAN (both while still in HS), ALGOL (2
dialects), at least 4 different assemblers/machine languages, SNOBOL,
LISP, PLUS (Programming Language for UNIVAC Systems - their PL/S),
AMINOL (You won't find anything about that anywhere any more), PLUM
(Maryland's PL/I subset).

During my student jobs I picked up 1410 Autocoder, COBOL and a tiny bit
of System/370 Assembler.

I learned about data structures up the wazoo: linked lists, stacks,
activation records for block structure languages (3 times), and heaven
only knows what else, with exposure in many courses.  Also
multitasking/multiprocessing and all that went with that in multiple
courses.

And performance measurement and management.

[FWIW, this was a time before PASCAL and databases]

I got exposed to soooo much stuff that picking up anything else later
was essentially trivial.  So, when I got to a 360/65-MP and had to do
Assember and COBOL no biggy.  When we had an Amdahl 470 that was fast
enough that poorly designed software had threading issues (as in an
idiot developer of a commercial product that expected to use MVS task
dispatching priority to avoid deadlocks), that was easy too.  As was
teaching my co-workers how to use a stack structure to implement a
recursive algorithm without having to do recursive subroutine calls.

I was able to explain to the other system programmers what happened when
utilization of a resource gets to me more than about 80% (think disk
queue) and how fast things go to Hades in a handbasket.  Queing theory
came in handier than heck when I was able to model the effect of
response time store and retrieve image documents and demonstrate to our
management and our vendor that we would have lines around the block -
the project got delayed a year as a result.

That is the kind of thing a Computer Science program ought to be doing.
 Teaching advanced techniques and concepts that can be used in
situations folks haven't even discovered that show up 30 years hence.
These are things that MOST ordinary programmers are not likely to learn
or even need as long as they have access to that kind of expertise.
Some call it "ivory tower", but I hope my explanation has shown that
there is MUCH more to it than that.

(Of course, there are some who learn such stuff and can never apply it,
just as there are engineers that can't apply knowledge in that domain,
either.  That isn't the fault of the university.  That is the fault of
the student or whomever pushed the student into a situation they were
either not a good fit for, or were not sufficiently prepared for.)


BUT, outside of a 4 year degree environment, ah, that is an entirely
different story.  THAT is where we should be teaching "real world
problems".  Stuff that folks can use immediately to land, keep and
succeed at a job.  How to do the things that developers encounter each
and every day.  Current technology and practices and languages that
folks are actually using every day.

Think about it as an analog between carpentry and structural
engineering.  When a carpenter really needs engineering help, they go to
an engineer (for example, as the contractor did to cantilever the deck
off the back of my house), but that doesn't mean that every carpenter
should have all the complex skills an engineer has, nor does it mean
that an engineer needs all of the skills a carpenter has - though of
course the engineer had better know practical and doable from crazy.  ;)

Trouble arises when you try to teach EITHER ONE broadly/completely in
the other environment.  The (MIX) assembler course I took focused WAY
too much on "niceties" and trying to squeeze out every last bit of
performance, instead of teaching conceptually how to wring bits from a
turnip.  It was a horrible waste of time (and pretty much out of date
before it even started.)

There can be exceptions, of course. There is a place, for example, for
teaching non CS majors in a university setting Python (not my favorite)
because they may need it in their studies and research these days.
Sorta like teaching Calculus to broad numbers of student who are not
math majors.

I tried to teach my Linux OS students at a tech school a little bit
about how virtual memory worked so that when faced with real world
performance issues they might better cope rather than just rote numbers
- with mixed results at best, but hopefully some of it stuck.  Same
thing with multi-processing and what could go wrong with programs and
systems in that Linux OS class.  But I would never ever dream of
teaching them LISP -- wrong place for that.

</RANT>

JRJ

From doug at doughq.com  Sun Apr  5 22:40:31 2020
From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 13:40:31 +1000
Subject: OT: Weller soldering irons
In-Reply-To: <19301c17-528f-5256-bef1-3a4deda14494@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <63651fc6-f95c-faa6-86f0-f7715a751302@dunnington.plus.com>
 <5E8A6849.2000107@pico-systems.com>
 <19301c17-528f-5256-bef1-3a4deda14494@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CAM_9E63FHme7WvzD8b+Y13x86g29drguLqek0ubcE0LZi=8RqQ@mail.gmail.com>

for me, the item that usually fails in the WTCP series is the switch at the
end of the sensor.

I have replaced the sensors each time, because dammit - My 40 year old iron
sometimes just needs a new cord, or a new heater, or a new tip, or a new
sensor.  Best iron I have ever had :-)


Kindest regards,

Doug Jackson

em: doug at doughq.com
ph: 0414 986878

Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com
Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net

-----------------------------------------------------------

Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted
with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for
your own use.

Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have
been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard - for this I apologise in
advance - It's ok bec**** we don* nee* accu**** tex* to unde****** actu**
mean***.

Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the
imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or
moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the
result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which
case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal
liability. :-)

Be nice to your parents.

Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, Setup a
radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you
happy.





On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 11:14 AM Pete Turnbull via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 06/04/2020 00:22, Jon Elson wrote:
> > On 04/05/2020 03:32 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
> >> A few hours ago I started looking at three "smart" light switches that
> >> need LEDs replaced, and switched on the soldering iron, and ... nope.
> >> It's a Weller WP80 and it seems the sensor in the heating element has
> >> died.
>
> > Is the sensor a separate component?
>
> Sadly, no.  That's the first thing I thought of.  The heater and sensor
> are integral with the stainless steel shaft and I can't see any way to
> get them out without destroying the shaft.
>
> --
> Pete
> Pete Turnbull
>

From boris at summitclinic.com  Sun Apr  5 23:12:53 2020
From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2020 20:12:53 -0800
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR22MB08782E24DE9DDC0EB0BF15AAEDC20@MWHPR22MB0878.nampr
 d22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
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 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CA+2pV57Ak9PuuJQQHddZ5GMHHtae3Wm+H-UnUeAFT60cWeaEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <20200406041259.831FA4E6C2@mx2.ezwind.net>

At 16:12 05-04-20, you wrote:
>On 4/5/20 6:28 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote:
>>On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>>I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
>>>comments were full of horseshit.?  In my opinion, it's the ability to
>>>translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
>>>programming, and anyone who has managed to learn (particularly on their
>>>own, as many of us did) that ability has learned something that transcends
>>>the language (or tool) you use to implement the algorithm.?  When I first
>>>started programming professionally, we had "programmers" (or sometimes
>>>designers) who specified the algorithms and "coders" who implemented them.
>>>That never worked well
>>Yep.?  You can write horrible code in /any/ language. ;)
>>BTW, I scanned & uploaded this last week.?  Oddly relevant.
>>https://archive.org/details/cobolcodingform
>
>I still have lots of them.  And Printer Output Forms.  And Fortran
>Programming Forms.  And all kinds of other Programming forms.  And
>Flow Chart Forms.  You know all that stuff we actually used to
>engineer programs before the software engineers came along and said
>we were all doing wrong.
>
>bill

Ran into a bunch of my FORTRAN programs from over 
50 years ago as well as the obligatory flowcharts 
I would do first before writing a single line of 
code. Code written in pencil so could erase 
errors and only then would I use a keypunch for 
final version.   Also a few FORTRAN coding 
forms.  Back then, with sometimes a 48 hour delay 
between submitting my card deck and getting 
program output, it was well worth spending an 
hour or two to print out contents of cards and 
carefully check that there weren't missing commas 
and or other errors that would mean correcting 
the stupid mistake and resubmitting ones card deck.

Never got into COBOL as my main interest was 
real-time computing and so next step up was 
access to PDP-8 which had FOCAL and quickly 
learned that programming in assembler was the way 
to go.  Still like assembly language programming 
and suspect my early experience of learning to 
code in an environment where there wasn't really 
a dividing line between software and hardware 
(people would build custom boards for 
PDP-8's/PDP-11's to speed up data acquisition) 
that the biggest change I made in my programming 
style was to switch to VB as it allowed me to 
easily create the graphical interface I needed 
but still let me link to C or Assembler routines 
in my VB6 code until windoze became too locked 
down to be of any use.  Still haven't got all my 
VB6 programs running under Wine on Linux but at least Linux has FORTRAN and C.

Part of what I've noticed is that I can't sit 
down at a keyboard and write code (as one is 
supposed to do nowadays) and it turns into a 
total mess.  I still use flowcharts when I'm 
dealing with tricky code and the nice thing about 
flowcharts is that one can easily create a 
hardware state machine from them.  Was nice in 
1970's, but now a Propeller chip, even using 
interperted Spin code, works far faster than the 
TTL state machines I used to make.  Other 
paleo-programmer related deficits include being 
totally unable to use RDB and still make use of 
linked lists and hash tables to create my 
databases as have been doing this for 50 
years.  Software Tools was probably the most 
important book I read in 1983 as it got me out of 
my rut of writing a massive FORTRAN program to do 
a specific task that I'd have no idea how to 
modify even 6 months later to small useful tools 
that could be strung together.  Back then 
engineers I worked with would have total disdain 
for Comp-Sci types who would still be working out 
their code indentation scheme while we would 
already be using a quickly written throwaway 
program to perform a particular task.

The other thing I should bring up is that my wife 
is after me to get rid of a lot of my old 
books.  While rumaging through the attic of my 
shop found boxes of old computer books which I'd 
like to keep but have been told that if I haven't 
looked at them in 15 years that it's unlikely I 
will in future.  Will check in see if some of 
them have been scanned onto bitsavers or other 
sites but have 68000 programming books, 6502 and 
other microprocessor related books as well as 
lots of Mac books when I just had to get into the 
guts of a Mac to do what I wanted.  Have a number 
of PDP-11 Unibus cards which likely won't use and 
will have to get all of that sorted out.  Once 
have a list of what I've got will post it on my 
web site.  I live in Kamloops, BC if there's 
anyone on this list who lives close by who's interested.




From aperry at snowmoose.com  Sun Apr  5 23:58:38 2020
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 21:58:38 -0700
Subject: Computer books (Was: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers)
In-Reply-To: <20200406041259.831FA4E6C2@mx2.ezwind.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CA+2pV57Ak9PuuJQQHddZ5GMHHtae3Wm+H-UnUeAFT60cWeaEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051528050.1182@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <MWHPR22MB08782E24DE9DDC0EB0BF15AAEDC20@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <20200406041259.831FA4E6C2@mx2.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <be7e6dcd-9acf-bb6c-88d7-318f25c643e3@snowmoose.com>



On 4/5/20 9:12 PM, Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk wrote:
> The other thing I should bring up is that my wife is after me to get rid 
> of a lot of my old books.? While rumaging through the attic of my shop 
> found boxes of old computer books which I'd like to keep but have been 
> told that if I haven't looked at them in 15 years that it's unlikely I 
> will in future.? Will check in see if some of them have been scanned 
> onto bitsavers or other sites but have 68000 programming books, 6502 and 
> other microprocessor related books as well as lots of Mac books when I 
> just had to get into the guts of a Mac to do what I wanted.? Have a 
> number of PDP-11 Unibus cards which likely won't use and will have to 
> get all of that sorted out.? Once have a list of what I've got will post 
> it on my web site.? I live in Kamloops, BC if there's anyone on this 
> list who lives close by who's interested.

I am usually in Merritt in September and in Kelowna in December (but who 
knows whether the events that I am up there for will happen this year). 
If you want to pass any of them on to Seattle area folks, I can 
(eventually) head over to Kamloops and bring them down.

alan


From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 00:27:22 2020
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 06:27:22 +0100
Subject: OT: Weller soldering irons
In-Reply-To: <CAM_9E63FHme7WvzD8b+Y13x86g29drguLqek0ubcE0LZi=8RqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <63651fc6-f95c-faa6-86f0-f7715a751302@dunnington.plus.com>
 <5E8A6849.2000107@pico-systems.com>
 <19301c17-528f-5256-bef1-3a4deda14494@dunnington.plus.com>
 <CAM_9E63FHme7WvzD8b+Y13x86g29drguLqek0ubcE0LZi=8RqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCweNicCSHTVL9TABvWosmVVgLNAfRoTjmxLUvi_ued4Rw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 4:40 AM Doug Jackson via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> for me, the item that usually fails in the WTCP series is the switch at the
> end of the sensor.
>
> I have replaced the sensors each time, because dammit - My 40 year old iron
> sometimes just needs a new cord, or a new heater, or a new tip, or a new
> sensor.  Best iron I have ever had :-)

The element in my Weller TCP failed a couple of years ago, after 25
years on my bench and having soldered probably hundreds of thousands
of joints. I bought a replacement (not _too_ expensive) and a spare to
go in the tool cupboard. I then realised that if the replacements last
as long as the original I will never have to buy another element, I'll
be gone first!

-tony

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Apr  6 00:35:17 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 22:35:17 -0700
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <20200406041259.831FA4E6C2@mx2.ezwind.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
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 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CA+2pV57Ak9PuuJQQHddZ5GMHHtae3Wm+H-UnUeAFT60cWeaEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051528050.1182@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <MWHPR22MB08782E24DE9DDC0EB0BF15AAEDC20@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <20200406041259.831FA4E6C2@mx2.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <c472c1fc-e919-19be-1ecc-9cb691b4aadd@sydex.com>

One of these days, when I have time, I'll go into one of the more
bizarre COBOL implementations, involving inter-process communication
with "chains" of modules being resident either wholly or in part in one
of several mainframes or in bulk core, with comm links extending
throughout the US.

cf. "Zodiac" done for the USAF Logistics Command.   Huge failure, but oh
my stars and garters, what a project!  1500 GSA programmers, all writing
COBOL, with 70 vendor support people.  It was fun, even if it did get
Proxmire's "Golden Fleece" award for two years running...

--Chuck


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon Apr  6 01:12:19 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 07:12:19 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
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 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brent Hilpert <bhilpert at shaw.ca>
> Sent: 06 April 2020 00:12
> To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU
> 
> On 2020-Apr-05, at 2:53 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
> > I have obtained a scope trace as you suggest. R32 is still lifted so
> > the
> > UC3842 is powered by the bench PSU, but I am using the full 240VAC (no
> > variac). The channels are:
> > 1.	Ch1. 555 timer.
> > 2.	Ch2. D19 Anode
> > 3.	Ch3. D19 Gate.
> > 4.	Ch4. Q1 Source.
> > The picture is here:
> > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-control-pulse-width
> > -modul
> > ator.png
> >
> >
> > You are correct, I have mixed up the values with R30 and R31, the
> > correct value is 15K. I have updated the schematic, and rearranged it
> > to look diagrammatically more like a sample diagram in the TI
> > datasheet for the UC3842. The updated schematic is here:
> > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-control-pulse-width
> > -modul
> > ator.png
> 
> 
> The links for pic and schematic don't seem to be correct.
> I picked up a modified 15K+15K schematic from the blog web page but
haven't
> found the scope pic.
> 

Sorry, that looks like a cut and paste error, here is the link to the scope
picture
https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-primary-scr-trigger.png

I used a 100ms timebase for the capture and then "zoomed in" a bit 


> Keep in mind at a low scope timebase resolution (long timebase) (as per
your
> previous scope pics), a brief spike on R13 may not show up in the scope
display
> (too brief for the discrete per pixel display interval, but it could have
charged
> C18 enough where it will linger longer and show up on the display. DSOs
can
> present some vagaries like this. If you haven't done so, examine the
traces at a
> higher timebase resolution (it could have been recorded in the sampling,
just
> not being seen).


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon Apr  6 01:14:00 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 07:14:00 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SJhqHgoPNC8uSWwq2FB8qhYY3rtBDiC_7fxiJk8mbZBHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <CABr82SJhqHgoPNC8uSWwq2FB8qhYY3rtBDiC_7fxiJk8mbZBHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000101d60bda$9087c000$b1974000$@ntlworld.com>



> I would agree that a check for shorts in the output stages can be of interest.
> Possibly disconnect one output stage at a time and see if that make a
> difference.
> 
> 

I like this idea, I will have to see how best to do that.

Regards

Rob


From mattislind at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 02:09:58 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 09:09:58 +0200
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82S+4LtLqRjO+mr9ZivVK5Bnou0uRujFKE=Zs9As_dvQMAA@mail.gmail.com>

Den s?n 5 apr. 2020 kl 23:53 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org>:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert
> via
> > cctalk
> > Sent: 05 April 2020 21:18
> > To: Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General Discussion:
> On-Topic
> > and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU
> >
> >
> > Switching power supplies are, to coin a phrase, voltage/current-ratio
> power
> > translators.
> > They will attempt to adjust the (cycle-averaged) input-current demand in
> > inverse proportion to the input voltage, to meet the power demand of the
> load.
> >
> > When you load a switching supply, and run it with a low input voltage, it
> will
> > attempt to increase the input-current demand, either with increased peak
> > current or increased duty-cycle (ON-time of primary switching
> transistor(s)).
> >
> > Suppose you have a load demand of 100W. At 100V input the input current
> > needed is 1A.
> > At 10V input, the input current needed is 10A.
> >
> > If a supply is not explicitly designed for low supply voltages, it can
> lead to
> > excessive primary-side currents.
> > This is why it is a bad idea to 'run up' switching supplies from a variac
> or
> > otherwise run them outside their specced input voltage range.
> >
> > You don't say what the observed duty-cycle (ON-time) is. What would be
> > expected is it's running 'wide-open' because it's trying to get enough
> energy
> > through the transformer to meet the load demand while gasping for
> resources
> > from the input because the input voltage is so low.
> >
> > So from the scenario you've set up, it's difficult to discern whether the
> > behaviour is normal or faulty (the scenario masks the otherwise-observed
> > faulty behaviour).
> >
>
>
>
> I have to say that when I was thinking about this, I did wonder if the
> problem was that it was trying to raise the output voltage with not a lot
> of
> input, and that therefore the duty cycle would be too high. I will remove
> the variac from the equation. For the record I was seeing a duty cycle of
> about 50%. In later testing at 240VAC the duty cycle does seem a lot lower.
>

When you use a variac the developed voltage on the secondary side will be
much lower due to the turn ratio of the transformer. You measured 0.4V on
the 5V line if I understand you correctly. That means approx 1/12 of
nominal output. That would then lead to 1/12 current on the secondary side
and 1/144th of the power developed. With this little power developed on the
secondary side there is no chance you can exceed the power transistor
ratings.

I do this all the time. I measure transistor current when doing this and
there are not a ten fold or so increase in current as Brent claim.

By using a variac and you can measure and study waveforms and detect
problems in driving circuits without killing the main switch transistor.
You can study actions of crowbar functions.

There are two different basic variants for SMPS mode PSUs. Forward or
Flyback. Forward are normally used in higher power designs while flyback is
lower power.

A forward mode PSU is like creating a square wave AC current and feeding it
to a transformer. In forward mode the duty cycle cannot be more than 50%
since the core need to reset before next cycle. The output will be a in
relation to the input by the turn ratio of the transformer. A forward
converter need a way to reset the transformer, either by various diodes on
the primary diode or using various bridge topologies for the switching
system. There are also filtering inductors on the secondary side.

However your PSU look very much like a flyback design. It means that the
transformer has an airgap.  It is actually both and inductor and
transformer. A flyback converter stores energy in the inductor when the
transistor is turned on and then when turned off the energy is
transfered to the load. When the transistor is switched on the current
will increase linearly in the primary winding.  This will continue until
the transistor is switched off or the core is saturated. When saturated the
current will rise sharply. This also means that the duty cycle can be
almost 100% only limited by the design of the transformer so that it does
not saturate.

Saturation is a condition you don't want to have. What could be interesting
is to study the waveform of the drain current in more detail. You need to
set timebase of your oscilloscope to a much shorter time span to in
detail study the increase of current in the drain.

The UC3842 does allow up to 100% duty cycle while the other cousins in the
same family, UC3844 and UC3845, only go up to 50%, thus made for
forward converters.

It can be interesting to investigate if the feed back circuits works as
expected. Usually one can inject lab supply voltages on the outputs and
find out if the control circuitry reacts properly. The problem with your
supply is that it is fairly complicated on the secondary side. While
reading the schematic it is not immediately clear that the op-amps will be
operating properly by feeding in +5V and +12 V backwards, unfortunately.

Then another option is to cut open the feed back path and inject a feedback
voltage from a labsupply at the input of the UC3842. You can then vary it
while there are supply voltage to the UC3842 and you can then monitor the
duty cycle of the UC3842.

If you cut away the secondary side output stage you have to bear in mind
that this is most likely a flyback design. Without any load at the output
of the transformer the energy stored in the magnetic field has no where to
go. You could get very high voltages on the drain. I suggest that you have
a load resistance over each output of the transformer. By doing this
together with breaking up the feed back loop as described above you could
monitor how the primary side is doing its switching. You should not try to
do this without a variac.

While having the output stages cut away from the transformer you could also
test the output stages by powering them from the transformer side by a
bench supply. What happens if you turn up the voltage slowly? Will the
crowbar trigger or not. Is a proper feed back voltage generated.

A lot of things to test, but one common note is that you need to study your
waveforms on a cycle basis not 100 ms/division. More like 10 us/division.

Good luck!

/Mattis



>
>
> > All this is also dependant on how large your dummy load is (as a % of the
> rated
> > max power output of the supply).
> >
> > If you want to run at a low input voltage, remove or very lightly load
> the
> output.
> > From your schematic, there is a small load presented internally from
> various
> > voltage dividers around the outputs, although not all the R values are in
> the
> > schematic, so can't calc the current.
> > If you still get the over-current SCR triggering, suspicion could lean
> towards a
> > short somewhere - a winding in the main transformer, secondary rectifiers
> or
> > caps - anything presenting an excessive energy sink to the main switcher,
> > including over-sensitivity of the crowbar circuits on the secondary side.
> The
> > secondary crowbar circuit monitors the output voltages relative to a
> reference.
> > You could scope-monitor the gate of the SCR over there.
>
>
> I have already done a ringing test on the main transformer, and I think
> that
> it is OK. One of the windings does not ring very well, but I think it is
> one
> that has few windings and supplies the on-going power to the primary side
> once the PSU has started up. I have also done a bit of testing on the
> secondary rectifiers, but not found anything so far. I will look at
> secondary side again more closely.
>
> >
> > The spike you mention on the primary-side SCR gate without a
> corresponding
> > spike on R13 does seem odd, seeing scope traces pic could be interesting,
> > perhaps scope the anode, the gate and R13. Possibility of some odd
> trigger
> > fault in the SCR.
>
> I have obtained a scope trace as you suggest. R32 is still lifted so the
> UC3842 is powered by the bench PSU, but I am using the full 240VAC (no
> variac). The channels are:
> 1.      Ch1. 555 timer.
> 2.      Ch2. D19 Anode
> 3.      Ch3. D19 Gate.
> 4.      Ch4. Q1 Source.
> The picture is here:
>
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-control-pulse-width-modul
> ator.png
> <https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-control-pulse-width-modulator.png>
>
> > There is a small amount of filtering on the SCR-gate/over-current voltage
> > divider (C18/2.2nF) so you would expect to a slightly averaged version of
> the
> > voltage at R13 after the voltage divider (at the cap/gate).
> >
> > Aside: You have R27 & R28 at 20+20 ohms in your schematic. This is an
> awfully
> > low R for dropping the hundreds of supply V down to the 16V/low-current
> of
> the
> > 3842 supply. For schematic accuracy, you might double-check the value of
> > those.
>
> You are correct, I have mixed up the values with R30 and R31, the correct
> value is 15K. I have updated the schematic, and rearranged it to look
> diagrammatically more like a sample diagram in the TI datasheet for the
> UC3842. The updated schematic is here:
>
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-control-pulse-width-modul
> ator.png
> <https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-control-pulse-width-modulator.png>
>
>
> >
> > 10/10 for your tenacity in this repair attempt.
>
> Thank you, I am sure it will be simple when I find the problem, and I am
> learning a lot.
>
>
>

From emu at e-bbes.com  Sun Apr  5 08:21:47 2020
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 09:21:47 -0400
Subject: Old FORTRAN programs, libraries, graphics
Message-ID: <cb5ce370-76dd-6773-72c9-58e2829aba74@e-bbes.com>

Being stuck at home, was musing the idea to look into some graphics
software from the '70's, or early 80's ...

Looking for some wire frames, hidden line removal, 3d graphics...

Any pointers?

View month ago or longer, somebody on this list recovered some large
package of FORTRAN code, and wanted to invest it, but I think it was
posted under a wrong subject, so I can't find it anymore ...

THANKS!

From tom at figureeightbrewing.com  Sun Apr  5 09:47:51 2020
From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 09:47:51 -0500
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <20200405123917.8321318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20200405123917.8321318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <08c63726-d597-c968-7d80-140c55126c91@figureeightbrewing.com>

Thanks all. The local locksmith should be able to make me a new one from
the information you've all posted.

--tom

On 4/5/20 7:39 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>     From: Tom Uban
>
>     > Does anyone have information on having a replacement PDP-11/05 key made?
>
> Google is your friend; here:
>
>     https://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Keys
>
> I don't recall if there's anough info there to create new keys without an
> original to copy. At one point I made a run of copies (after posting a call
> here); I suppose I could do so again.
>
> 	Noel
>
>


From reboot at ncf.ca  Sun Apr  5 15:53:23 2020
From: reboot at ncf.ca (Mike Kenzie)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 16:53:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <1314520789.11516222.1586120003905.JavaMail.zimbra@ncf.ca>

Great Fortran, APL and COBOL my main languages, with a sprinkling of DCL.

----- Original Message -----
> From: "General Discussion, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> To: "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com>, "General Discussion, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 4:37:11 PM
> Subject: Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
>>> I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he died
>>> before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)
>>
>> well, close.
>> His BASIC quote is:
>> "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have
>> had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally
>> mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
>>
> 
> That doesn't explain the millions of kids that got their start in BASIC
> and grew up to learn skills that could wipe the floor with him...
> 
>> Here is one copy of his 1975 paper, "How Do We Tell Truths That Might Hurt":
>> https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html
>>
> 
> The problem is that it's not a "truth", it's horseshit, plain and simple.
> People that think so much of themselves that they consider their opinions
> to have the weight of fact just make me froth at the mouth. :)
> 
>> I don't know what language(s), if any, that he liked.
> 
> Then he should have sat down, shut up, and let the adults talk. ;)
> 
> g.
> 
> 
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
> 
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From jdbryan at acm.org  Sun Apr  5 23:41:21 2020
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 00:41:21 -0400
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841@yahoo.com>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>,
 <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1jLJZb-0004Lp-Bj@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Saturday, April 4, 2020 at 21:54, David Williams via cctech wrote:

> I've been able set up Simh with 2000F TSB and everything is working
> fine. Using the latest release I can find out there, HP2100 release
> 29. Now I'd like to be able to install some of the Contributed
> Software Library but despite reading the various TSB manuals and Simh
> doc, I've been unable to actually get anything loaded.

My acquaintance with the HP Time-Shared BASICs is only passing, and you 
didn't mention where you picked up the CSL image, but the ones at Bitsavers 
appear to be selective dumps of various accounts.  For those, you'd want to 
do a selective load of the desired files from the tape image.

If you're using the 2000F kit from the trailing-edge site, you can use the 
"tsb-man" startup file to begin a manual system startup.  You'd answer the 
startup questions as follows:

  CONFIGURATION OPTIONS? YES
  NUMBER OF PORTS? <just press ENTER>
  LOAD OR DUMP COMMANDS? LOAD
  ENTER NAME LIST, ONE PER LINE; TERMINATE WITH 'END'

At this point, mount the CSL tape on the tape drive and then enter the 
account and file names of the files you wish to restore.  When you enter 
the END command, the system will load the named accounts or files from the 
tape.

The process is described on pages 4-19 through 4-22 in the "HP 20854A 
Timeshared BASIC/2000, Level F System Operator's Manual" (HP part number 
02000-90074, Nov-1974) that is available from Bitsavers.

One caveat: I don't know, but I suspect that the selective dump tapes are 
version-specific, i.e., one for 2000 Access won't work on 2000F.  I don't 
know with which systems the Bitsavers tapes are compatible.


> Thanks in advance.

You're welcome.

Feel free to contact me directly I can clarify anything.

                                      -- Dave


From jim.manley at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 04:27:52 2020
From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 03:27:52 -0600
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <436eb38e-fbb3-ff84-37f7-6fc25f96de06@charter.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051730470.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <70d72ec7-d0e8-0e83-0a86-54eb1191d531@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5bd46f04-a87c-0f0f-52d7-e51aea29e4dc@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <436eb38e-fbb3-ff84-37f7-6fc25f96de06@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2R3ivaF=_Qwadh9nd4n9FsxLxLm0w3vLYX5=m9Sk3WMr+WYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Speaking of COBOL and Admiral Grace Hopper, I have one of her actual
nanoseconds, a piece of insulated solid wire about 11.2 inches long, when
she was a Superintendent's guest lecturer.  Since I was a Navy MSCS
student, she "signed" it with stripes and gaps in magic marker, as the ones
and zeroes in ASCII representing her name.

An enterprising headhunter scoured retirement communities in Florida,
Texas, Arizona, etc., in 1999, looking for COBOL programmers who knew where
the two-digit dates were in the code.  In many cases, the source had been
lost by the 1990s, so they really had to know the code.  AIUI, the Federal
Reserve and many banking systems still run COBOL executables that have been
wrapped to enable them to be run on modern OSes on current hardware, much
as FORTRAN executables run on NASA missions, such as the Mars orbiters,
landers, and rovers.  Rewriting such code would introduce bugs galore,
especially anything contracted out by the government to the lowest bidder.

As for learning computing, I have a slightly different range of students
that are my charges than present company.  It starts with kindergartners
and ends with adults of all ages in colleges and universities.  OK, so what
the heck can a kindergartner possibly learn about computing?  Notice that I
didn't say computer science, that's a subset of computing.  Computing
encompasses mathematics, physics, science, engineering, hardware, software,
and all of the more specialized areas under each of those major
categories.  Programming isn't even up toward the top, any more than
soldering is, although my students all learn some things that will be
useful throughout their lives, no matter where they wind up career-wise.

Here's what kindergartners can learn about computing: the concepts of
something and nothing, and that there is literally money in computers.
Huh?  The little ones don't even see a one or a zero when I start them out
- we start with one of the most fundamental concepts in computing that even
some freshman CS students often don't comprehend, the difference between
something and nothing.  I ask them to identify opposites that they can
sense, such as light and dark, a marble and an absence of a marble, left
and right hands, magnets that attract and magnets that repel, etc.

Eventually, we graduate to pennies: nice, shiny, brand-new-from-the-bank
pennies that, to a kindergartner, are actual gold.  They play with the
pennies to discover that they can roll around, and learn that they're not
food or nasal suppositories, under careful supervision by multiple adults.
They also find out that there is another opposites concept: heads and
tails, which we acknowledge as what we educators call a scaffolding
element, upon which other concepts will be built later.

They're then provided egg cartons, which enables them to start learning the
concept of organization, which even many adults never get close to
mastering.  After a while, the tykes are encouraged to toss the pennies
short distances and they learn that the pennies just happen to fit nicely
at the bottom of the egg-holding parts of the cartons.  That's when I begin
repeating the mantra to them every day: "There's literally money in
computers.  There's literally money in computers ... "  When they start
repeating it at home, their parents/guardians thank me profusely when they
see me.

Now the magic begins - the kids are shown that patterns can be created with
shiny pennies and not-so-shiny empty holes.  I collect egg cartons from
institutional kitchens that use real in-the-shell eggs, e.g. breakfast
places like IHOP, Denny's, etc., that serve eggs sunny-side-up/down.  Very
few kitchens use real eggs any more unless they're serving dishes with
actual yolks and whites - omelettes, scrambled eggs, baked goods, etc., are
all made with powdered eggs or liquid egg mixtures, even at what you might
consider upscale restaurants.  The cartons they use are upwards of
eight-by-eight eggs in size, which stack nicely for storage, as well as
rapid access to make lots of whole, fresh egg dishes.

You might be seeing where I'm going with the eight-by-eight cartons,
because they're ideal for representing arrays of bits as bytes, with rows
potentially representing successive memory locations, registers, graphics
buffers, etc.  Of course, the kindergartners aren't going to understand
anything about those sorts of concepts, but by the time I do get to them,
they don't think twice about manipulating pennies in egg cartons.

In the higher grades, I teach them binary  math after we map pennies to
ones and the egg holes to zeroes.  They haven't learned decimal numbers and
math at that point, yet, so this is a terrific opportunity to get them
comfortable with bits without the confusion of seeing 10 and reflexively
reading it as ten - it's always pronounced "one zero".

At that point, they can learn the four rules for binary addition:  0 + 0 =
0, 0 + 1 = 1, 1 + 0 = 1, and 1 + 1 = 0 and carry 1 to the next digit to the
left.  This is much simpler than learning decimal addition and prepares
students by scaffolding decimal math on top of binary math that they
learned as early as possible.  Early on, I also ensure that the
something-nothing opposites concept of something and null are deeply
instilled

I use these techniques for students all the way up through elderly adults
to help them understand what's really going on in binary digital
computing.  You would be surprised at how many supposedly computing-savvy
people have no idea that computing hardware almost universally executes
everything at the bit level, and that the air around them is filled with
exabits/second of serialized data via all sorts of frequencies and
modulations.

Extrapolate that sort of progression through all of the computing concepts
discussed in previous posts, and much more, using scaffolding all the way
up through the postgraduate computing level and you now have an idea of
where computing education is going.  This is not your grandfather's,
father's, or even your own kind of educational experience, this is
something more befitting of the 21st Century, and it's not limited to just
computing.

Waiting until the post-secondary or even secondary educational levels to
teach computing is no longer an option, as we don't have the luxury of only
educating an elite few.  We have to start as early as possible with
everyone and build layer upon layer alongside all of the other fundamentals
to establish a citizenry to whom computing fundamentals are as familiar as
the A-B-Cs and 1-2-3s, along with other important ideas and skills that
haven't been taught appropriately for going on 100-plus years.

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 05:00:42 2020
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 11:00:42 +0100
Subject: Old FORTRAN programs, libraries, graphics
In-Reply-To: <cb5ce370-76dd-6773-72c9-58e2829aba74@e-bbes.com>
References: <cb5ce370-76dd-6773-72c9-58e2829aba74@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <0f3d01d60bfa$3bbb79c0$b3326d40$@gmail.com>

I have been using PGPLOT but I guess you are aware of that. 

https://www.astro.caltech.edu/~tjp/pgplot/

I also wonder if you might be interested in

https://github.com/rricharz/Tek4010

what I was looking for was a Calcomp Basic Plotting calls to HPGL as most of my plotters are HPLG and would like to plot some of the Calcomp sample plots on them

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler
> via cctalk
> Sent: 05 April 2020 14:22
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Old FORTRAN programs, libraries, graphics
> 
> Being stuck at home, was musing the idea to look into some graphics
> software from the '70's, or early 80's ...
> 
> Looking for some wire frames, hidden line removal, 3d graphics...
> 
> Any pointers?
> 
> View month ago or longer, somebody on this list recovered some large
> package of FORTRAN code, and wanted to invest it, but I think it was posted
> under a wrong subject, so I can't find it anymore ...
> 
> THANKS!


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 05:34:04 2020
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 12:34:04 +0200
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <CAD2R3ivaF=_Qwadh9nd4n9FsxLxLm0w3vLYX5=m9Sk3WMr+WYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051730470.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <70d72ec7-d0e8-0e83-0a86-54eb1191d531@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5bd46f04-a87c-0f0f-52d7-e51aea29e4dc@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <436eb38e-fbb3-ff84-37f7-6fc25f96de06@charter.net>
 <CAD2R3ivaF=_Qwadh9nd4n9FsxLxLm0w3vLYX5=m9Sk3WMr+WYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHMqF_u5SZEpYOjSgReGtenVar4Xcz6jH9V6KUUfBhb7A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 6 Apr 2020 at 11:28, Jim Manley via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Speaking of COBOL and Admiral Grace Hopper, I have one of her actual
> nanoseconds, a piece of insulated solid wire about 11.2 inches long, when
> she was a Superintendent's guest lecturer.  Since I was a Navy MSCS
> student, she "signed" it with stripes and gaps in magic marker, as the ones
> and zeroes in ASCII representing her name.
>
> An enterprising headhunter scoured retirement communities in Florida,
> Texas, Arizona, etc., in 1999, looking for COBOL programmers who knew where
> the two-digit dates were in the code.  In many cases, the source had been
> lost by the 1990s, so they really had to know the code.  AIUI, the Federal
> Reserve and many banking systems still run COBOL executables that have been
> wrapped to enable them to be run on modern OSes on current hardware, much
> as FORTRAN executables run on NASA missions, such as the Mars orbiters,
> landers, and rovers.  Rewriting such code would introduce bugs galore,
> especially anything contracted out by the government to the lowest bidder.
>
> As for learning computing, I have a slightly different range of students
> that are my charges than present company.  It starts with kindergartners
> and ends with adults of all ages in colleges and universities.  OK, so what
> the heck can a kindergartner possibly learn about computing?  Notice that I
> didn't say computer science, that's a subset of computing.  Computing
> encompasses mathematics, physics, science, engineering, hardware, software,
> and all of the more specialized areas under each of those major
> categories.  Programming isn't even up toward the top, any more than
> soldering is, although my students all learn some things that will be
> useful throughout their lives, no matter where they wind up career-wise.
>
> Here's what kindergartners can learn about computing: the concepts of
> something and nothing, and that there is literally money in computers.
> Huh?  The little ones don't even see a one or a zero when I start them out
> - we start with one of the most fundamental concepts in computing that even
> some freshman CS students often don't comprehend, the difference between
> something and nothing.  I ask them to identify opposites that they can
> sense, such as light and dark, a marble and an absence of a marble, left
> and right hands, magnets that attract and magnets that repel, etc.
>
> Eventually, we graduate to pennies: nice, shiny, brand-new-from-the-bank
> pennies that, to a kindergartner, are actual gold.  They play with the
> pennies to discover that they can roll around, and learn that they're not
> food or nasal suppositories, under careful supervision by multiple adults.
> They also find out that there is another opposites concept: heads and
> tails, which we acknowledge as what we educators call a scaffolding
> element, upon which other concepts will be built later.
>
> They're then provided egg cartons, which enables them to start learning the
> concept of organization, which even many adults never get close to
> mastering.  After a while, the tykes are encouraged to toss the pennies
> short distances and they learn that the pennies just happen to fit nicely
> at the bottom of the egg-holding parts of the cartons.  That's when I begin
> repeating the mantra to them every day: "There's literally money in
> computers.  There's literally money in computers ... "  When they start
> repeating it at home, their parents/guardians thank me profusely when they
> see me.
>
> Now the magic begins - the kids are shown that patterns can be created with
> shiny pennies and not-so-shiny empty holes.  I collect egg cartons from
> institutional kitchens that use real in-the-shell eggs, e.g. breakfast
> places like IHOP, Denny's, etc., that serve eggs sunny-side-up/down.  Very
> few kitchens use real eggs any more unless they're serving dishes with
> actual yolks and whites - omelettes, scrambled eggs, baked goods, etc., are
> all made with powdered eggs or liquid egg mixtures, even at what you might
> consider upscale restaurants.  The cartons they use are upwards of
> eight-by-eight eggs in size, which stack nicely for storage, as well as
> rapid access to make lots of whole, fresh egg dishes.
>
> You might be seeing where I'm going with the eight-by-eight cartons,
> because they're ideal for representing arrays of bits as bytes, with rows
> potentially representing successive memory locations, registers, graphics
> buffers, etc.  Of course, the kindergartners aren't going to understand
> anything about those sorts of concepts, but by the time I do get to them,
> they don't think twice about manipulating pennies in egg cartons.
>
> In the higher grades, I teach them binary  math after we map pennies to
> ones and the egg holes to zeroes.  They haven't learned decimal numbers and
> math at that point, yet, so this is a terrific opportunity to get them
> comfortable with bits without the confusion of seeing 10 and reflexively
> reading it as ten - it's always pronounced "one zero".
>
> At that point, they can learn the four rules for binary addition:  0 + 0 =
> 0, 0 + 1 = 1, 1 + 0 = 1, and 1 + 1 = 0 and carry 1 to the next digit to the
> left.  This is much simpler than learning decimal addition and prepares
> students by scaffolding decimal math on top of binary math that they
> learned as early as possible.  Early on, I also ensure that the
> something-nothing opposites concept of something and null are deeply
> instilled
>
> I use these techniques for students all the way up through elderly adults
> to help them understand what's really going on in binary digital
> computing.  You would be surprised at how many supposedly computing-savvy
> people have no idea that computing hardware almost universally executes
> everything at the bit level, and that the air around them is filled with
> exabits/second of serialized data via all sorts of frequencies and
> modulations.
>
> Extrapolate that sort of progression through all of the computing concepts
> discussed in previous posts, and much more, using scaffolding all the way
> up through the postgraduate computing level and you now have an idea of
> where computing education is going.  This is not your grandfather's,
> father's, or even your own kind of educational experience, this is
> something more befitting of the 21st Century, and it's not limited to just
> computing.
>
> Waiting until the post-secondary or even secondary educational levels to
> teach computing is no longer an option, as we don't have the luxury of only
> educating an elite few.  We have to start as early as possible with
> everyone and build layer upon layer alongside all of the other fundamentals
> to establish a citizenry to whom computing fundamentals are as familiar as
> the A-B-Cs and 1-2-3s, along with other important ideas and skills that
> haven't been taught appropriately for going on 100-plus years.

What a wonderful post. Started out with me being a little envious of
meeting Admiral Hopper and having a nanosecond, and ended up with an
inspiring tale of teaching logic.

*Applause*

Thank you for that!

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  6 07:35:03 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 08:35:03 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <c472c1fc-e919-19be-1ecc-9cb691b4aadd@sydex.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051528050.1182@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <MWHPR22MB08782E24DE9DDC0EB0BF15AAEDC20@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
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Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB08789C87DABEC5A755E7AD65EDC20@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

On 4/6/20 1:35 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> One of these days, when I have time, I'll go into one of the more
> bizarre COBOL implementations, involving inter-process communication
> with "chains" of modules being resident either wholly or in part in one
> of several mainframes or in bulk core, with comm links extending
> throughout the US.
> 
> cf. "Zodiac" done for the USAF Logistics Command.   Huge failure, but oh
> my stars and garters, what a project!  1500 GSA programmers, all writing
> COBOL, with 70 vendor support people.  It was fun, even if it did get
> Proxmire's "Golden Fleece" award for two years running...
> 

How much of that failure was due to the incompetence of the
contractor programmers?

I worked on some COBOL for the Navy once.  These were very old
programs that had moved between a  number of different systems
in their lifetime.  One of the moves was from flat files to a
database system.  Contractors did the conversion.  The program
connected to the database.  Did a series of FETCHes to read all
the data and write it in to a flat file. And then processed the
flat file using all the original logic.  I won't go into all the
other trash, like using unsigned data items for intermediate
results in computations!!

bill



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Apr  6 08:42:51 2020
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 09:42:51 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <f4f9174b-aafa-b17c-ec44-7bd8287686c2@ntlworld.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CA+2pV57Ak9PuuJQQHddZ5GMHHtae3Wm+H-UnUeAFT60cWeaEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f4f9174b-aafa-b17c-ec44-7bd8287686c2@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <0CCC244D-83E4-493B-8A78-AC16A82B0ACA@comcast.net>



> On Apr 5, 2020, at 6:17 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 05/04/2020 22:27, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
>> I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
>> comments were full of horseshit.  In my opinion, it's the ability to
>> translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
>> programming,
> 
> 
> Dijkstra was a computer scientist not a computer programmer. The two are only tangentially related!

That's clearly not true.  He was hired as a programmer, the first in the country, by the Mathematical Center.  And he wrote a number of major programs: the first implementation of the Shortest Path algorithm, the world's first ALGOL compiler, and the THE operating system -- among others.  Also the BIOS for the Electrologica X1 computer, which was the topic of his Ph.D. thesis.

It's true that later on he focused on computer science theory, but to claim that he didn't know about programming shows a lack of understanding of his history.

BTW, the reason he didn't like the IBM 1620 is that you can't build a multiprogramming OS on it since it has no interrupts and uses blocking I/O.  

	paul


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon Apr  6 08:49:15 2020
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 06:49:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051730470.31022@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
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 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051330240.26766@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051730470.31022@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004060643190.4089@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin wrote:

> I still believe that the best FIRST exposure to computer programming should 
> be BASIC.  VERY FIRST program should have instant gratification, without 
> having had to already learn underlying structures, variable types, how to run 
> a compiler, etc.  After creating first program, and a few more, in a very 
> short time, it would then be sensible to evaluate what kind of programming is 
> most interesting, and switch to the most appropriate language.  Having 
> already created a few token programs, it is then less onerous to learn 
> compilers, data types, system overhead, "ENVIRONMENT DIVISION", etc.
>
A friend of mine started out with BDS C and never did get around to 
learning BASIC...

>
> Q: If Bill Gates hadn't written a BASIC interpreter, where would we be now?
>
I strongly suspect someone else would have come out with one.  Tiny BASIC 
may have happened earlier.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  6 08:57:49 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 09:57:49 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004060643190.4089@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB0878CAE037AB7FEE54FB39D7EDC20@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>



Another article on this subject today.  This one claims the
Mainframe in question is 40 years old.  Maybe it really is
a 360/40.  :-)

bill

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Apr  6 10:46:01 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 08:46:01 -0700
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <CAD2R3ivaF=_Qwadh9nd4n9FsxLxLm0w3vLYX5=m9Sk3WMr+WYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
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 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <70d72ec7-d0e8-0e83-0a86-54eb1191d531@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5bd46f04-a87c-0f0f-52d7-e51aea29e4dc@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <436eb38e-fbb3-ff84-37f7-6fc25f96de06@charter.net>
 <CAD2R3ivaF=_Qwadh9nd4n9FsxLxLm0w3vLYX5=m9Sk3WMr+WYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ba88ca0e-a2aa-a3e6-283a-3c39ce9b646f@sydex.com>

On 4/6/20 2:27 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote:
> Speaking of COBOL and Admiral Grace Hopper, I have one of her actual
> nanoseconds, a piece of insulated solid wire about 11.2 inches long, when
> she was a Superintendent's guest lecturer.  Since I was a Navy MSCS
> student, she "signed" it with stripes and gaps in magic marker, as the ones
> and zeroes in ASCII representing her name.
> 

Parenthetically, it should be mentioned that the US Navy played an
important part in COBOL certification.  One standard requirement for
vendors back in the day wss passing the "Navy Audit Tests" (CCVS).

In particular, I remember that one could tell where one was in the test
suite by the sounds that the tape drives made when writing short records
of various lengths.  It was LOUD, even with the tape drive door closed.

The "audit tests" were as much a test of the COBOL compiler as of the
operating system.

--Chuck


From couryhouse at aol.com  Mon Apr  6 04:20:24 2020
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 09:20:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <E1jLJZb-0004Lp-Bj@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>
 <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841@yahoo.com>
 <E1jLJZb-0004Lp-Bj@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1628336240.742555.1586164824833@mail.yahoo.com>

For? some? reason I? do not? remember having to enter each and every? file? name? to load? it? in?to a real 2000f? ?but? then again it? has? been 40 years!? Ed#
In a message dated 4/6/2020 2:12:42 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

On Saturday, April 4, 2020 at 21:54, David Williams via cctech wrote:

> I've been able set up Simh with 2000F TSB and everything is working
> fine. Using the latest release I can find out there, HP2100 release
> 29. Now I'd like to be able to install some of the Contributed
> Software Library but despite reading the various TSB manuals and Simh
> doc, I've been unable to actually get anything loaded.

My acquaintance with the HP Time-Shared BASICs is only passing, and you 
didn't mention where you picked up the CSL image, but the ones at Bitsavers 
appear to be selective dumps of various accounts.? For those, you'd want to 
do a selective load of the desired files from the tape image.

If you're using the 2000F kit from the trailing-edge site, you can use the 
"tsb-man" startup file to begin a manual system startup.? You'd answer the 
startup questions as follows:

? CONFIGURATION OPTIONS? YES
? NUMBER OF PORTS? <just press ENTER>
? LOAD OR DUMP COMMANDS? LOAD
? ENTER NAME LIST, ONE PER LINE; TERMINATE WITH 'END'

At this point, mount the CSL tape on the tape drive and then enter the 
account and file names of the files you wish to restore.? When you enter 
the END command, the system will load the named accounts or files from the 
tape.

The process is described on pages 4-19 through 4-22 in the "HP 20854A 
Timeshared BASIC/2000, Level F System Operator's Manual" (HP part number 
02000-90074, Nov-1974) that is available from Bitsavers.

One caveat: I don't know, but I suspect that the selective dump tapes are 
version-specific, i.e., one for 2000 Access won't work on 2000F.? I don't 
know with which systems the Bitsavers tapes are compatible.


> Thanks in advance.

You're welcome.

Feel free to contact me directly I can clarify anything.

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Dave




From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  6 05:00:53 2020
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 10:00:53 +0000
Subject: Old FORTRAN programs, libraries, graphics
In-Reply-To: <cb5ce370-76dd-6773-72c9-58e2829aba74@e-bbes.com>
References: <cb5ce370-76dd-6773-72c9-58e2829aba74@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR06MB4359D114472F9870F655482FBAC20@BYAPR06MB4359.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Emanuel, I have you covered with FORTRAN graphics.

I have your 3d wireframe, and rendering too with MOVIE.BYU.  The greatest 3D and animation package in its day, say late 70's early 80s.

Martin Hepler gave me the latest, I got most of it working, but.... aaa well something took me away.

Let me put it up somewhere.

I also have VERSAPLOT, the Versatec graphics package.  Does one cool thing, since they made electrostatic printers.  Its got a Laing Barsky rasterizer in it.  You do your plot with all the great stuff, then it generates a vector list and rasterizes it for the printer.

Give me a day and I will put it up somewhere.

Randy



________________________________
From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of emanuel stiebler via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 6:21 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Old FORTRAN programs, libraries, graphics

Being stuck at home, was musing the idea to look into some graphics
software from the '70's, or early 80's ...

Looking for some wire frames, hidden line removal, 3d graphics...

Any pointers?

View month ago or longer, somebody on this list recovered some large
package of FORTRAN code, and wanted to invest it, but I think it was
posted under a wrong subject, so I can't find it anymore ...

THANKS!

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 11:06:10 2020
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 12:06:10 -0400
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <CAD2R3ivaF=_Qwadh9nd4n9FsxLxLm0w3vLYX5=m9Sk3WMr+WYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
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Message-ID: <CAALmimmMOU7KGQV0egzQMu8JLhjUmW05X42XK2PfkxXofa4puA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 5:28 AM Jim Manley via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Speaking of COBOL and Admiral Grace Hopper, I have one of her actual
> nanoseconds, a piece of insulated solid wire about 11.2 inches long, when
> she was a Superintendent's guest lecturer.  Since I was a Navy MSCS
> student, she "signed" it with stripes and gaps in magic marker, as the ones
> and zeroes in ASCII representing her name.

Very cool.  I was supposed to get one of her nanoseconds as a
speaker's gift at a tech convention but they didn't get the packet in
time.  Obviously one can make a reproduction but the actual artifact
would have been cool to receive.

> As for learning computing, I have a slightly different range of students
> that are my charges than present company.  It starts with kindergartners
> and ends with adults of all ages in colleges and universities...

Definitely an interesting progression there.  The tangible nature of
pennies in egg cups is quite useful for the younger learners.

I was in elementary school in the early 70s, on the tail end of the
New Math.  We had Cuisenaire rods for learning about area and volume
(and powers of 10), and around second grade, we delved into alternate
number bases.  We touched on Base-6 and Base-8 because that was in the
mathbooks, but our teacher put more emphasis on Base-2.  We didn't
just treat them like plain numbers, we encoded letters (how many
7-year-olds can resist writing secret messages!)  We did the obvious
at first, 5-bit groups with 00000 for space and 00001 for A, etc., and
found that long sequences were quite tedious to write (and more
tedious to read).  We then came up with the idea (with prodding from
the teacher, no doubt) to substitute letters for sequences of 1s or
0s.  T for 111, F for 000, for example.  As I recall, we had subs for
5, 4, and 3 sequential identical binary digits (there being little
reward for subbing 2).  With a dictionary of 8 symbols, we had
obfuscation with light compression.

I started programming BASIC on the PET about 4 years later.  Learning
Boolean operators and bitmasks for I/O registers (to manipulate the
PET User Port) was easy after that earlier intro to Binary.

Definitely start the kids early on it.

>  You would be surprised at how many supposedly computing-savvy
> people have no idea that computing hardware almost universally executes
> everything at the bit level, and that the air around them is filled with
> exabits/second of serialized data via all sorts of frequencies and
> modulations.

No doubt.  I work with a lot of developers who have no idea how stuff
works below "Objects" (they instantiate an object, send it message and
magic happens - all black boxes connected with string).

-ethan

From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Mon Apr  6 12:11:49 2020
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 10:11:49 -0700
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR22MB08789C87DABEC5A755E7AD65EDC20@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
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 <MWHPR22MB08782E24DE9DDC0EB0BF15AAEDC20@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <20200406041259.831FA4E6C2@mx2.ezwind.net>
 <c472c1fc-e919-19be-1ecc-9cb691b4aadd@sydex.com>
 <MWHPR22MB08789C87DABEC5A755E7AD65EDC20@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <921E1D02-3687-4FFC-959C-837984ECB312@shaw.ca>

Here in Canada, ongoing for several years now, we've had the major fiasco of the Phoenix payroll system.
I've never heard an accounting of where the fault lies, or why IBM isn't being held more accountable.
A brief summary from Wikipedia:

The Phoenix pay system is a payroll processing system for Canadian federal government employees, provided by IBM in June 2011 using PeopleSoft software, and run by Public Services and Procurement Canada.
... first introduced in 2009 .. intended to replace Canada's 40-year old system with a new, cost-saving "automated, off-the-shelf commercial system."
By July 2018, Phoenix has caused pay problems to close to 80 percent of the federal government's 290,000 public servants through underpayments, over-payments, and non-payments.
The Standing Senate Committee .. investigated .. and submitted their report, "The Phoenix Pay Problem: Working Towards a Solution" on July 31, 2018, in which they called Phoenix a failure and an "international embarrassment"
Instead of saving $70 million a year as planned, the report said that the cost to taxpayers to fix Phoenix's problems could reach a total of $2.2 billion by 2023.


From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Mon Apr  6 15:06:30 2020
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 13:06:30 -0700
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>

On 2020-Apr-05, at 11:12 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
>> 
>>> I have obtained a scope trace as you suggest. R32 is still lifted so
>>> the
>>> UC3842 is powered by the bench PSU, but I am using the full 240VAC (no
>>> variac). The channels are:
>>> 1.	Ch1. 555 timer.
>>> 2.	Ch2. D19 Anode
>>> 3.	Ch3. D19 Gate.
>>> 4.	Ch4. Q1 Source.
> 
> Sorry, that looks like a cut and paste error, here is the link to the scope
> picture
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-primary-scr-trigger.png
> 
> I used a 100ms timebase for the capture and then "zoomed in" a bit 


You would need to zoom in far more to see what's going on when the SCR triggers, to cover just a few cycles around the trigger time.

Once an SCR has been triggerred, the gate becomes a voltage/current supply, a diode drop above 0.
You see this on your trace in that after triggerring the gate sits at something +V above 0.
The spike you see may just be an artifact of the internal SCR trigger action.
I presume you see some increased current draw from your bench supply for the 3842 after the SCR triggers.

What's up with channel 2? Above you say it's D19 anode which is 3842 Vcc but it shows on the trace as just noise around 0V.

I would still suggest that you scope the state of the secondary-side crowbar - the gate of Q2, and base of Q4.
Should be simple to do, before trying to remove or disconnect the main transformer.

From emu at e-bbes.com  Mon Apr  6 13:21:53 2020
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 14:21:53 -0400
Subject: Old FORTRAN programs, libraries, graphics
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR06MB4359D114472F9870F655482FBAC20@BYAPR06MB4359.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <cb5ce370-76dd-6773-72c9-58e2829aba74@e-bbes.com>
 <BYAPR06MB4359D114472F9870F655482FBAC20@BYAPR06MB4359.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <84d44efd-ef80-82c4-56cb-b5b1ccfba42d@e-bbes.com>

On 2020-04-06 06:00, Randy Dawson via cctech wrote:
> Emanuel, I have you covered with FORTRAN graphics.
> 
> I have your 3d wireframe, and rendering too with MOVIE.BYU.  The greatest 3D and animation package in its day, say late 70's early 80s.

Yes, that was the original packages I was referring to!

> Martin Hepler gave me the latest, I got most of it working, but.... aaa well something took me away.
> Let me put it up somewhere.

GIT?

> I also have VERSAPLOT, the Versatec graphics package.  Does one cool thing, since they made electrostatic printers.  Its got a Laing Barsky rasterizer in it.  You do your plot with all the great stuff, then it generates a vector list and rasterizes it for the printer.
> 
> Give me a day and I will put it up somewhere.
Excellent!
Thanks!

> Randy
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of emanuel stiebler via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 6:21 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Old FORTRAN programs, libraries, graphics
> 
> Being stuck at home, was musing the idea to look into some graphics
> software from the '70's, or early 80's ...
> 
> Looking for some wire frames, hidden line removal, 3d graphics...
> 
> Any pointers?
> 
> View month ago or longer, somebody on this list recovered some large
> package of FORTRAN code, and wanted to invest it, but I think it was
> posted under a wrong subject, so I can't find it anymore ...
> 
> THANKS!
> 


From jdbryan at acm.org  Mon Apr  6 13:39:12 2020
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 14:39:12 -0400
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <1628336240.742555.1586164824833@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>,
 <E1jLJZb-0004Lp-Bj@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <1628336240.742555.1586164824833@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1jLWeO-000GCr-To@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 9:20, ED SHARPE via cctech wrote:

> For? some? reason I? do not? remember having to enter each and every?
> file? name? to load? it? in?to a real 2000f? ?but? then again it? has?
> been 40 years! 

You can enter just the account names, which will restore all of the dumped 
files for those accounts.  2000 Access lets you enter ALL to restore all 
accounts from the tape, but I don't think that 2000F has that option.

                                      -- Dave


From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  6 13:47:51 2020
From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 13:47:51 -0500
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <E1jLJZb-0004Lp-Bj@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>,
 <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841@yahoo.com>
 <E1jLJZb-0004Lp-Bj@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <ff64f6bfa8afa25fb975bd9ceb1db27d@yahoo.com>

On 2020-04-05 23:41, J. David Bryan wrote:
> My acquaintance with the HP Time-Shared BASICs is only passing, and you
> didn't mention where you picked up the CSL image, but the ones at 
> Bitsavers
> appear to be selective dumps of various accounts.  For those, you'd 
> want to
> do a selective load of the desired files from the tape image.
> 
> If you're using the 2000F kit from the trailing-edge site, you can use 
> the
> "tsb-man" startup file to begin a manual system startup.  You'd answer 
> the
> startup questions as follows:
> 
>   CONFIGURATION OPTIONS? YES
>   NUMBER OF PORTS? <just press ENTER>
>   LOAD OR DUMP COMMANDS? LOAD
>   ENTER NAME LIST, ONE PER LINE; TERMINATE WITH 'END'
> 
> At this point, mount the CSL tape on the tape drive and then enter the
> account and file names of the files you wish to restore.  When you 
> enter
> the END command, the system will load the named accounts or files from 
> the
> tape.

Okay that is pretty much what I had been trying. Glad to know I haven't 
lost the ability to read a manual in my old age. Beginning to think the 
copy on Bitsavers isn't compatible. The first few tries I didn't see any 
messages, it just went on to the enter date and time and start up but 
when I'd check the account's directory there was nothing there. The last 
couple of times I tried I did get a message about something unsupported 
and listed something about 200 vs 1500 iirc (block size??). It asked if 
I wanted to take responsibility and continue which I said yes but still 
nothing appeared to be restored.

I'm using the stock system from http://simh.trailing-edge.com/hp/ with 
the 2000F TSB software kit from there as well. There is nothing but a 
couple of test programs installed with that setup. The CSL tape image 
comes from Bitsavers as well and was the only copy I've found. It is 
listed as the 2000F CSL so figured it was compatible. Could the Simh 
hardware configuration in the default set up need to be changed? Looked 
like you could simulate different tape drives.

> One caveat: I don't know, but I suspect that the selective dump tapes 
> are
> version-specific, i.e., one for 2000 Access won't work on 2000F.  I 
> don't
> know with which systems the Bitsavers tapes are compatible.

I assumed so as well, I have another tape image I know is from a 2000 
Access system and didn't bother to try it.

Best,
David Williams

From couryhouse at aol.com  Mon Apr  6 14:07:57 2020
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 19:07:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <E1jLWeO-000GCr-To@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>
 <E1jLJZb-0004Lp-Bj@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <1628336240.742555.1586164824833@mail.yahoo.com>
 <E1jLWeO-000GCr-To@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <121026386.1008197.1586200077369@mail.yahoo.com>

you? said - "You can enter just the account names"

OK? that is the? way? I? remember? it!
In a message dated 4/6/2020 11:39:21 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctech at classiccmp.org writes:

On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 9:20, ED SHARPE via cctech wrote:

> For? some? reason I? do not? remember having to enter each and every?
> file? name? to load? it? in?to a real 2000f? ?but? then again it? has?
> been 40 years!

You can enter just the account names, which will restore all of the dumped
files for those accounts.? 2000 Access lets you enter ALL to restore all
accounts from the tape, but I don't think that 2000F has that option.

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Dave

From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  6 18:30:39 2020
From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 18:30:39 -0500
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <E1jLZJJ-0008sj-GQ@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>, 
 <E1jLJZb-0004Lp-Bj@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <ff64f6bfa8afa25fb975bd9ceb1db27d@yahoo.com>
 <E1jLZJJ-0008sj-GQ@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <7c7defb4c23809d2d4eaaeb958431b63@yahoo.com>

On 2020-04-06 16:29, J. David Bryan via cctech wrote:
> As I noted, I'm not that familiar with TSB (I'm an RTE guy).  But you 
> might
> have to create the desired accounts with the "NEW" sysop command before 
> you
> can restore to them.

Yes I created the accounts first and after I thought the tapes loaded I 
logged in to them to check for the files which weren't there.

> Feature level codes, I think.
> 
> Pages 4-21 and 4-22 of the Access operator's manual (22687-90005, July
> 1976) say:
> 
>    Each system is assigned a Feature Level Code identifying the level 
> of
>    features it supports. Currently, codes are assigned as follows:
> 
>    Feature Level                         Code
>    -----------------------------------   ----
>    2000/C (High-Speed Option)             200
>    2000/F (All Options)                   200
>    HP 2000 Operating System, Release A   1000
>    HP 2000 Operating System, Release B   2000
> 
>    Normally, systems with Feature Level Codes of 1000 or greater cannot
>    access tapes from systems with Feature Level Codes of less than 1000
>    and vice versa. For exceptions to this rule, refer to conversion
>    information in Appendix F.
> 
> If the tape reported a feature level code of 1500, then I'd think it 
> was an
> Access tape.
> 
> Access does come with a conversion program, described in Appendix F of 
> the
> above manual, that allows one to dump Access programs in 2000F format.
> Presumably, you could load the CSL tape into an Access system and then 
> dump
> the programs to a 2000F tape that could be read into the latter system.
> I've never tried this myself, though.

Looking over the manual I think I'll give this a try, easy enough to 
bring up a new instance of an Access system, try and load the tape on 
there and then dump it with the conversion program. Use to have an 
Access based system running but removed it a couple of computers back.

> Another possibility, if you can get listings of the CSL programs you 
> want,
> is to copy-and-paste the source into a logged-in user terminal window
> session.

Thought about this too but as I'm trying to get as much of a set up 
similar to what I had in high school, there are a lot of the programs to 
load and copy/paste would be a pain. Prefer to try and get the tape 
converted to something I can work with on the 2000F.

> Which specific tape are you using?  Bitsavers shows three CSL tapes 
> under
> /bits/hp/tapes/2000tsb, but they all seem to be feature level 1500.

The text files in there appear to label all the CSL tapes there as 
feature level 1500 so it would appear that it doesn't matter which I 
try.

I'll bring up a new Access system and give the conversion program a try.

David Williams

From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  6 20:39:27 2020
From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 20:39:27 -0500
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <7c7defb4c23809d2d4eaaeb958431b63@yahoo.com>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>, 
 <E1jLJZb-0004Lp-Bj@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <ff64f6bfa8afa25fb975bd9ceb1db27d@yahoo.com>
 <E1jLZJJ-0008sj-GQ@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <7c7defb4c23809d2d4eaaeb958431b63@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0e623f2b53c2f358b47d180a3801a407@yahoo.com>

On 2020-04-06 18:30, David Williams via cctalk wrote:
> On 2020-04-06 16:29, J. David Bryan via cctech wrote:
>> Access does come with a conversion program, described in Appendix F of 
>> the
>> above manual, that allows one to dump Access programs in 2000F format.
>> Presumably, you could load the CSL tape into an Access system and then 
>> dump
>> the programs to a 2000F tape that could be read into the latter 
>> system.
>> I've never tried this myself, though.
> 
> Looking over the manual I think I'll give this a try, easy enough to
> bring up a new instance of an Access system, try and load the tape on
> there and then dump it with the conversion program. Use to have an
> Access based system running but removed it a couple of computers back.
> 

Could use a little help with this. I have a new 2000/Access system up 
and running and have successfully loaded an account from the CSL tape so 
that appears to be all good. Looking at the doc for running the 
conversion program it tells me I need to load the Master Tape which I 
locate without issue. The problem I'm having is to load it I have to:

1) Press HALT and PRESET

  - okay not an issue following the guide gives me the commands to do 
that

2) Select the S-register and clear the display. Set bits 15 and 0. Set 
bits 11 through 6 to the low number (high priority) octal select code of 
the magnetic tape device controller.

  - Bit more of an issue for me as I'm not sure what value to enter for 
the tape device. Looking at the included .sim files I used the DEPOSIT 
command with what I thought was it and setting bits 15 and 0 as 
indicated but don't think I had it right.

3) Select the A-register and clear the display. Set bit 0. Press STORE 
and IBL. The contents of the magnetic tape loader ROM are loaded into 
memory.

  - Here it stops. The doc says to use the "LOAD CPU" command to simulate 
pressing the IBL button but when I do I just get "Command not allowed".

Not sure it I even have the right value in the S-register to begin with 
of course but Simh doesn't seem to want to let me "press IBL"

Any ideas?

David Williams

From athornton at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 22:09:35 2020
From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 20:09:35 -0700
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 67, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1586192400.84725.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1586192400.84725.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <70A4E762-AA8B-4D2A-A06E-41E90162F942@gmail.com>

On Apr 6, 2020, at 10:00 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
> 
> They play with the
> pennies to discover that they can roll around, and learn that they're not
> food or nasal suppositories, 

I was with you up till here, but wait, what?

I?m one of those kids who was just the right age.

Five years older and I would have been in the Car Club, and would have ended up being a damn good mechanic without a lot of career opportunities.

Five years later and not every damn computer on the planet would have come with a BASIC interpreter in ROM and who knows what my tinkering instinct would have led to.

But I, born in 1971, had an Atari 2600 and its BASIC programming cartridge, and in the fall on 1982 I got a VIC-20, and sometime in 1983 my parent bought me an Apple //e.

So I did grow up with Microsoft BASIC as my first language, and, sure, it doesn?t lend itself well to structured programming, but then when I wanted to know ?well how do you do _that_?? I ended up in 6502 assembly, and picked up P-System PASCAL and Logo along the way.  Then in the summer of ?89 I interned in a physics department, and got OK at Turbo Pascal and sort-of-vaguely-able-to-write C.

College brought REXX on (IBM VM/CMS; I didn?t get an Amiga until the 2010s, well after its relevance) and Perl and Scheme and SPARC assembly, and grad school (both for irrelevant degrees: Ancient Mediterranean Civilization and History?but wait, there?s a footnote) 680x0 assembly and Java.  (The footnote is, well history of computing, so I got a lot of deep-dive stuff into other languages and architectures.)  Since then, whatever I needed to learn when I needed to learn it.  I?ve programmed COBOL for money, which has joined the ranks of things I?m not super-proud to have done for money but hey it paid the bills when I needed it.

Since then?Python, C, Go, TypeScript, whatever was needed.  These days it?s mostly Python.

But really what it was was that I was lucky enough to be in that small age window where computers were, one the one hand, something middle-class families could afford while still being capable of doing cool things, and on the other hand, simple enough that a smart adolescent could pretty much understand them more-or-less in their entirety.

Adam


From jdbryan at acm.org  Mon Apr  6 22:59:52 2020
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 23:59:52 -0400
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <0e623f2b53c2f358b47d180a3801a407@yahoo.com>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>,
 <7c7defb4c23809d2d4eaaeb958431b63@yahoo.com>,
 <0e623f2b53c2f358b47d180a3801a407@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1jLfOy-0008vc-K0@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 20:39, David Williams via cctalk wrote:

> The problem I'm having is to load it I have to:
> 
> [...] 
> 
> 2) Select the S-register and clear the display. Set bits 15 and 0. Set 
> bits 11 through 6 to the low number (high priority) octal select code of
> the magnetic tape device controller.
> 
>   - Bit more of an issue for me as I'm not sure what value to enter for 
> the tape device.

The included "spconfig.inc" file indicates that the tape interface is 
assigned to select codes 16 and 17.  So the command you want is:

  DEPOSIT S 101601

> 3) Select the A-register and clear the display. Set bit 0. Press STORE 
> and IBL. The contents of the magnetic tape loader ROM are loaded into 
> memory.
> 
>   - Here it stops. The doc says to use the "LOAD CPU" command to simulate
> pressing the IBL button but when I do I just get "Command not allowed".

The LOAD CPU command is not allowed unless the CPU is configured as a 
21MX-series machine.  By default (meaning unless you've changed it since 
starting the simulator), it is configured as a 2116, which does not have 
loader ROMs.  So doing this after setting the S-register would work:

  SET CPU 21MX
  DEPOSIT A 000001
  LOAD CPU

However, if the CPU isn't configured for Access, then probably the I/O 
devices aren't configured for Access as well.  The initial SIMH startup 
settings have to be changed to rearrange things to where Access expects 
them to be.

The simplest way to set up the proper configuration and then load the 
Master Control Program is to modify the existing "tsb-reload.sim" file.  
First, copy it to a new file named "tsb-convert.sim".  Then edit the latter 
by locating the line that says:

  go until "LOAD WHICH MODULE?  "  ; reply "%DISC%\r"

Delete this line and all of the remaining lines in the file.  Then append 
the command:

  go

...to the end, so that the last two lines of the file read:

  go until "2754? "                ; reply "YES\r"
  go

Save the file and then run it:

  hp2100 tsb-convert

The script will start up the IOP (I don't know if it's necessary in this 
case, but it's harmless) and then print:

  Waiting for the IOP to complete its initialization...

  Programmed halt, T: 102077 (HLT 77), P: 77756 (ALF,ALF)

  2754? YES
  LOAD WHICH MODULE?  

...on the system console.  Enter CONVERT, and then follow the remaining 
instructions in the sysop manual.  Note that the default uses an HP 7905 
disc drive for the system disc, so the question:

  DISC-0 A 7905 OR A 7920?

...should be answered YES.

                                      -- Dave


From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  6 23:53:39 2020
From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 23:53:39 -0500
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <E1jLfOy-0008vc-K0@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>, 
 <7c7defb4c23809d2d4eaaeb958431b63@yahoo.com>,
 <0e623f2b53c2f358b47d180a3801a407@yahoo.com>
 <E1jLfOy-0008vc-K0@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <fe75f5f7715748d8e7a436b6f65ee77f@yahoo.com>

On 2020-04-06 22:59, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote:
> 
> The included "spconfig.inc" file indicates that the tape interface is
> assigned to select codes 16 and 17.  So the command you want is:
> 
>   DEPOSIT S 101601

Okay I was only slightly off...

>> 3) Select the A-register and clear the display. Set bit 0. Press STORE
>> and IBL. The contents of the magnetic tape loader ROM are loaded into
>> memory.
>> 
>>   - Here it stops. The doc says to use the "LOAD CPU" command to 
>> simulate
>> pressing the IBL button but when I do I just get "Command not 
>> allowed".
> 
> The LOAD CPU command is not allowed unless the CPU is configured as a
> 21MX-series machine.  By default (meaning unless you've changed it 
> since
> starting the simulator), it is configured as a 2116, which does not 
> have
> loader ROMs.  So doing this after setting the S-register would work:
> 
>   SET CPU 21MX
>   DEPOSIT A 000001
>   LOAD CPU

The manual lists two paths, one for 21MX processors and one for 2100 
processors. Looking at the notes I thought it was configured as 21MX 
already so was trying that path.

> However, if the CPU isn't configured for Access, then probably the I/O
> devices aren't configured for Access as well.  The initial SIMH startup
> settings have to be changed to rearrange things to where Access expects
> them to be.

Access is set up and running fine already so things should have already 
been configured for it I'd have thought.

> The simplest way to set up the proper configuration and then load the
> Master Control Program is to modify the existing "tsb-reload.sim" file.
> First, copy it to a new file named "tsb-convert.sim".  Then edit the 
> latter
> by locating the line that says:
> 
>   go until "LOAD WHICH MODULE?  "  ; reply "%DISC%\r"
> 
> Delete this line and all of the remaining lines in the file.  Then 
> append
> the command:
> 
>   go
> 
> ..to the end, so that the last two lines of the file read:
> 
>   go until "2754? "                ; reply "YES\r"
>   go
> 
> Save the file and then run it:
> 
>   hp2100 tsb-convert
> 
> The script will start up the IOP (I don't know if it's necessary in 
> this
> case, but it's harmless) and then print:
> 
>   Waiting for the IOP to complete its initialization...
> 
>   Programmed halt, T: 102077 (HLT 77), P: 77756 (ALF,ALF)
> 
>   2754? YES
>   LOAD WHICH MODULE?
> 
> ..on the system console.  Enter CONVERT, and then follow the remaining
> instructions in the sysop manual.  Note that the default uses an HP 
> 7905
> disc drive for the system disc, so the question:
> 
>   DISC-0 A 7905 OR A 7920?
> 
> ..should be answered YES.
> 
>                                       -- Dave

Getting a bit late here right now so I'll have to try this or 
investigate the 2100 processor instructions in the morning.

Thank you for your help so far.

David Williams


From jdbryan at acm.org  Tue Apr  7 00:32:42 2020
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 01:32:42 -0400
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <fe75f5f7715748d8e7a436b6f65ee77f@yahoo.com>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>,
 <E1jLfOy-0008vc-K0@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <fe75f5f7715748d8e7a436b6f65ee77f@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1jLgqf-0006xc-7i@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 23:53, David Williams via cctalk wrote:

> Access is set up and running fine already so things should have already 
> been configured for it I'd have thought.

The simulator executable always starts up with a default hardware 
configuration (a 32K 2116 CPU, no extra firmware, and every possible I/O 
interface card assigned somewhere in the I/O space).  The supplied 
simulator command files change that default to match the Access (or 2000F, 
etc.) hardware requirements, but the changes are not sticky across 
sessions.  So restarting the simulator reverts to the default 
configuration.

In other words, running the simulator with "hp2100" gets you the default 
configuration.  Running with "hp2100 tsb-auto" (e.g.) starts with the 
default, and then the "tsb-auto.sim" command file execution changes it to 
match the TSB requirements before bootstrapping the system.


> Thank you for your help so far.

You're welcome.

                                      -- Dave


From jdbryan at acm.org  Mon Apr  6 16:29:37 2020
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 17:29:37 -0400
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <ff64f6bfa8afa25fb975bd9ceb1db27d@yahoo.com>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>,
 <E1jLJZb-0004Lp-Bj@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <ff64f6bfa8afa25fb975bd9ceb1db27d@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1jLZJJ-0008sj-GQ@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 13:47, David Williams via cctech wrote:

> The first few tries I didn't see any messages, it just went on to the
> enter date and time and start up but when I'd check the account's
> directory there was nothing there. 

As I noted, I'm not that familiar with TSB (I'm an RTE guy).  But you might 
have to create the desired accounts with the "NEW" sysop command before you 
can restore to them.


> The last couple of times I tried I did get a message about something
> unsupported and listed something about 200 vs 1500 iirc (block
> size??). 

Feature level codes, I think.


> It asked if I wanted to take responsibility and continue which I said
> yes but still nothing appeared to be restored.

Pages 4-21 and 4-22 of the Access operator's manual (22687-90005, July 
1976) say:

   Each system is assigned a Feature Level Code identifying the level of
   features it supports. Currently, codes are assigned as follows: 

   Feature Level                         Code
   -----------------------------------   ----
   2000/C (High-Speed Option)             200
   2000/F (All Options)                   200
   HP 2000 Operating System, Release A   1000
   HP 2000 Operating System, Release B   2000

   Normally, systems with Feature Level Codes of 1000 or greater cannot
   access tapes from systems with Feature Level Codes of less than 1000
   and vice versa. For exceptions to this rule, refer to conversion
   information in Appendix F. 

If the tape reported a feature level code of 1500, then I'd think it was an 
Access tape.

Access does come with a conversion program, described in Appendix F of the 
above manual, that allows one to dump Access programs in 2000F format.  
Presumably, you could load the CSL tape into an Access system and then dump 
the programs to a 2000F tape that could be read into the latter system.  
I've never tried this myself, though.

Another possibility, if you can get listings of the CSL programs you want, 
is to copy-and-paste the source into a logged-in user terminal window 
session.


> The CSL tape image comes from Bitsavers as well and was the only copy
> I've found. It is listed as the 2000F CSL so figured it was
> compatible. 

Which specific tape are you using?  Bitsavers shows three CSL tapes under 
/bits/hp/tapes/2000tsb, but they all seem to be feature level 1500.


> Could the Simh hardware configuration in the default set up need to be
> changed? 

I don't think that's it.  Those couple of test programs installed with the 
software kit are loaded from a selective dump magnetic tape image as part 
of the sysgen process, so the DUMP and LOAD commands do work with the 
hardware setup.

                                      -- Dave


From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Mon Apr  6 21:48:35 2020
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 22:48:35 -0400
Subject: Old FORTRAN programs, libraries, graphics
In-Reply-To: <0f3d01d60bfa$3bbb79c0$b3326d40$@gmail.com>
References: <cb5ce370-76dd-6773-72c9-58e2829aba74@e-bbes.com>
 <0f3d01d60bfa$3bbb79c0$b3326d40$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5dba4673-d421-3d1f-73c9-33908fdc42bc@comcast.net>

Got similar interests here.? I've been using PGPLOT on the Vax since it 
came out, the price was right!
Tried to get it to work with a Tektronix 4207, but something is a little 
different between it and the 4105 series.
I was able to get an old version of Gnuplot (3.4) to compile and run on 
a Vax alpha under Openvms 8.4.
It wouldn't compile on a 32 Vax under OpenVms 7.3, too bad, I had wanted 
to run gnuplot on that machine.? Maybe I needed an older version of gnuplot.

On 4/6/2020 6:00 AM, Dave Wade via cctech wrote:
> I have been using PGPLOT but I guess you are aware of that.
>
> https://www.astro.caltech.edu/~tjp/pgplot/
>
> I also wonder if you might be interested in
>
> https://github.com/rricharz/Tek4010
>
> what I was looking for was a Calcomp Basic Plotting calls to HPGL as most of my plotters are HPLG and would like to plot some of the Calcomp sample plots on them
>
> Dave
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler
>> via cctalk
>> Sent: 05 April 2020 14:22
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only <cctech at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Old FORTRAN programs, libraries, graphics
>>
>> Being stuck at home, was musing the idea to look into some graphics
>> software from the '70's, or early 80's ...
>>
>> Looking for some wire frames, hidden line removal, 3d graphics...
>>
>> Any pointers?
>>
>> View month ago or longer, somebody on this list recovered some large
>> package of FORTRAN code, and wanted to invest it, but I think it was posted
>> under a wrong subject, so I can't find it anymore ...
>>
>> THANKS!



From derschjo at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 01:37:24 2020
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 23:37:24 -0700
Subject: ISO: Documentation for Interphase SMD 2181 disk controller
Message-ID: <CADBZjLazGOgA27So5-1B-G3ckLtuQkRWTGupaXQiRXH+6xvZWA@mail.gmail.com>

Subject line says it all.  The Lambda uses this as its disk controller and
it's looking like the one in mine needs some debugging.  There doesn't seem
to be any documentation for this controller out there.  There are docs for
the Interphase SMD 2180 on Bitsavers but it appears to be a very different
board.

Thanks!
Josh

From boris at summitclinic.com  Tue Apr  7 02:20:57 2020
From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 23:20:57 -0800
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <20200406022551.GP22036@brevard.conman.org>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <20200406022551.GP22036@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <20200407072101.A934A273AC@mx1.ezwind.net>

At 18:25 05-04-20, you wrote:
>It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin via cctalk once stated:
> > >>Edsger Dijksta said, "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching
> > >>should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense."
> >
> > On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
> > >I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he died
> > >before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)
> >
> > well, close.
> > His BASIC quote is:
> > "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that
> > have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are
> > mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
> >
> > Here is one copy of his 1975 paper, "How Do We Tell Truths That Might
> > Hurt":
> > https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html
> >
> > I don't know what language(s), if any, that he liked.
>
>   Math.
>
>   -spc (Had some comp-sci profs who didn't like programming or computers)
Thanks for that link.  Didn't run into Dijkstra's work until I'd been 
programming for years but can't say he had much impact on me.  Tried 
to find out tonight whether I had been "mentally mutilated beyond 
hope of regeneration".  Found first computer book I bought on 
21/1/1968 which was Digital Computer Principle by Burrough's 
Corporation when I would have been 14.  In bad shape now as I'd lug 
it with me to reread sections wherever I went.  Remembered entering a 
science fair that year with a full-adder circuit composed of DTL 
logic using discrete diodes and transistors. One of the people I met 
at that science fair and I got to play with a Nova computer shortly 
afterwards.  It ran BASIC and we wondered why they let 2 14 year olds 
spend so much time writing little programs on it, but maybe they were 
using us an example of how easy it was for even kids to use.  It was 
at some oil company related equipment exhibition in Calgary.

After deciding it would be a lot faster to actually figure out how to 
get access to a computer than build my own, teamed up with a few 
nerds in Calgary.  One of them had somehow pursuaded the Calgary 
school board to buy $20,000 worth of computer time on the UofC 
mainframe (200 CPU hours on a 360) and most of this CPU time was used 
by about 5 of us.  I was thinking of mathematics at that point in my 
life, but was told that I would never be a mathematician when I 
talked to one of the UofC mathematicians about my program to 
numerically simulate the gravitational 3 body problem by solving the 
system of differential equations in FORTRAN.  He was very dismissive 
saying that I was doing applied mathematics and my interests would be 
better suited to engineering.  The guy I met at the science fair did 
go into engineering and did a lot of work on remote sensing and 
satellite imagery analysis.  Program was easy, plotting results on 
graph paper wasn't.

While hanging out at the UofC data center was told to read Knuth's 
The Art of Computer Programming which had just come out.  Had no 
access to a MIX interpreter then and had to translate his algorithms 
into FORTRAN.  Don't feel like going into my freezing shop attic now 
to find out whether I started with BASIC or FORTRAN, but it was 
probably Knuth that made me always like to code in assembly 
language.  For the type of research I ended up doing, FORTRAN was far 
too slow and most of my PDP-11 programs were FORTRAN calls to 
assembly routines that were optimized for speed and bits of FORTRAN 
code I needed to display results or change experimental 
parameters.  Got to work with a great mathematician during this 
research who was the black sheep in the UBC math faculty because his 
interest was applied mathematics.  So if BASIC was first language I 
ever programmed in, didn't seem to affect my ability to create 
massive PDP-11 projects running on multiple processors simultaneously.





From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Apr  7 08:00:09 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 09:00:09 -0400
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 67, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <70A4E762-AA8B-4D2A-A06E-41E90162F942@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1586192400.84725.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <70A4E762-AA8B-4D2A-A06E-41E90162F942@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <965597fe-97ff-d9f7-6c2b-d17ad93fead3@alembic.crystel.com>

Indeed. My dad worked at Bell labs in the 1970's and when I was in third 
grade he brought home a TRS80 Model 1 Level 1 to do work on. It had a 
game on cassette called space war or something that I always wanted to 
play but he had to load it. Finally he taught me how to CLOAD to get me 
out of his hair so I could play it.

When I got bored I found the other game he had for it on cassette: 
"Introduction to programming". And that night my parents came into the 
living room to find me running my first program: Termites. Which would 
fill the screen then randomly turn off pixels to simulate termites 
eating your house down....

Got better from there. But I still value basic for the quick use of MID$ 
and Len(x$) to quickly parse strings of text.

CZ

On 4/6/2020 11:09 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote:
> On Apr 6, 2020, at 10:00 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
>>
>> They play with the
>> pennies to discover that they can roll around, and learn that they're not
>> food or nasal suppositories,
> 
> I was with you up till here, but wait, what?
> 
> I?m one of those kids who was just the right age.
> 
> Five years older and I would have been in the Car Club, and would have ended up being a damn good mechanic without a lot of career opportunities.
> 
> Five years later and not every damn computer on the planet would have come with a BASIC interpreter in ROM and who knows what my tinkering instinct would have led to.
> 
> But I, born in 1971, had an Atari 2600 and its BASIC programming cartridge, and in the fall on 1982 I got a VIC-20, and sometime in 1983 my parent bought me an Apple //e.
> 
> So I did grow up with Microsoft BASIC as my first language, and, sure, it doesn?t lend itself well to structured programming, but then when I wanted to know ?well how do you do _that_?? I ended up in 6502 assembly, and picked up P-System PASCAL and Logo along the way.  Then in the summer of ?89 I interned in a physics department, and got OK at Turbo Pascal and sort-of-vaguely-able-to-write C.
> 
> College brought REXX on (IBM VM/CMS; I didn?t get an Amiga until the 2010s, well after its relevance) and Perl and Scheme and SPARC assembly, and grad school (both for irrelevant degrees: Ancient Mediterranean Civilization and History?but wait, there?s a footnote) 680x0 assembly and Java.  (The footnote is, well history of computing, so I got a lot of deep-dive stuff into other languages and architectures.)  Since then, whatever I needed to learn when I needed to learn it.  I?ve programmed COBOL for money, which has joined the ranks of things I?m not super-proud to have done for money but hey it paid the bills when I needed it.
> 
> Since then?Python, C, Go, TypeScript, whatever was needed.  These days it?s mostly Python.
> 
> But really what it was was that I was lucky enough to be in that small age window where computers were, one the one hand, something middle-class families could afford while still being capable of doing cool things, and on the other hand, simple enough that a smart adolescent could pretty much understand them more-or-less in their entirety.
> 
> Adam
> 

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Apr  7 08:04:15 2020
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue,  7 Apr 2020 09:04:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
Message-ID: <20200407130415.BE0E618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Ian McLaughlin

    > I can confirm that about 6 months ago I gave this very information to
    > our corporate locksmith, and he was able to make a key for me that
    > works.

Thanks for the confirmation that that info is sufficient to produce a working
key. I have updated the page to indicate that the info has been confirmed.

	Noel

From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Apr  7 09:40:38 2020
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 07:40:38 -0700
Subject: ISO: Documentation for Interphase SMD 2181 disk controller
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLazGOgA27So5-1B-G3ckLtuQkRWTGupaXQiRXH+6xvZWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLazGOgA27So5-1B-G3ckLtuQkRWTGupaXQiRXH+6xvZWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <27ebdce0-cdb8-dcad-bdb3-d109734f61aa@bitsavers.org>

On 4/6/20 11:37 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:
> Subject line says it all.  The Lambda uses this as its disk controller and
> it's looking like the one in mine needs some debugging.  There doesn't seem
> to be any documentation for this controller out there.  There are docs for
> the Interphase SMD 2180 on Bitsavers but it appears to be a very different
> board.
> 
> Thanks!
> Josh
> 

Interphase Multibus manuals are pretty rare for some reason. I've been looking for the 2181 and 3030 ESDI/MFM
manuals literally for decades back to when I had SGI IRISs.



From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch  Tue Apr  7 12:46:07 2020
From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 19:46:07 +0200
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
Message-ID: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>

Since you are all talking COBOL now :

ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/ICL1501

There is the manual for the early 70?s COBOL implementation for the ICL1501, a small 8K or 16K TTL based personal computer ( TTL based CPU, with 2x 74181 ALU and a 32x8 CRT display)

Not the best of scans, but that alas reflects the material I have.

Some other? doku on the ICL1501 is also included :? an operator guide and tape utilities user guide.

I do have the tape with the COBOL itself, alas no way yet of gettig it on modern hardware.


And if anyone has dokumentation on the ICl1503 or 1501/43, in particular the Diablo drive interface then I sure would like to see it !

Have the kontroller, but no documentation...


Al, as always, feel free to add any and all to bitsavers.


Jos



From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  7 13:19:24 2020
From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 13:19:24 -0500
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <E1jLgqf-0006xc-7i@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>, 
 <E1jLfOy-0008vc-K0@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <fe75f5f7715748d8e7a436b6f65ee77f@yahoo.com>
 <E1jLgqf-0006xc-7i@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5b75572fc6f85beb19afa8de09bc26a8@yahoo.com>

First I want to say again how much I appreciate your assistance. Up 
until now my only experience with this system was as a HS student first 
learning to program and never had any access to the system outside of 
that. Learning a lot reading the manuals for the system as well as the 
doc on Simh and from you.

On 2020-04-07 00:32, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote:
> The simulator executable always starts up with a default hardware
> configuration (a 32K 2116 CPU, no extra firmware, and every possible 
> I/O
> interface card assigned somewhere in the I/O space).  The supplied
> simulator command files change that default to match the Access (or 
> 2000F,
> etc.) hardware requirements, but the changes are not sticky across
> sessions.  So restarting the simulator reverts to the default
> configuration.
> 
> In other words, running the simulator with "hp2100" gets you the 
> default
> configuration.  Running with "hp2100 tsb-auto" (e.g.) starts with the
> default, and then the "tsb-auto.sim" command file execution changes it 
> to
> match the TSB requirements before bootstrapping the system.

Okay that was interesting and makes sense.

I tried your "tsb-convert.sim" suggestion and instructions from earlier 
and where it did work to an extent, I'm now beginning to think it won't 
work in my case.

I have Access up and running and restored account Z905 (the games) as a 
test. Then used the suggested "tsb-convert.sim" to dump that to a tape 
file. Moved that to my 2000F system and restored it. I ended up with 
only 1 file and not all the contents of the catalog.

Looking at the Access doc on the conversion program's dump command I 
noticed it says it dumps 2000/Access "BASIC formatted files" which the 
one file I was able to transfer is where the others are not.

Looking through the manuals to see if there is a different way to save 
the programs that could work but don't see anything yet.

Haven't looked into punch tape with Simh, is that working? Not sure 
punching each program and reloading into the 2000F would be any better 
than copy/paste though.

Open to any other ideas for getting a bunch of programs back to a 2000F 
system... will continue to pour through all the doc I have.

David Williams

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 12:03:09 2020
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 13:03:09 -0400
Subject: ISO: Documentation for Interphase SMD 2181 disk controller
In-Reply-To: <27ebdce0-cdb8-dcad-bdb3-d109734f61aa@bitsavers.org>
References: <CADBZjLazGOgA27So5-1B-G3ckLtuQkRWTGupaXQiRXH+6xvZWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <27ebdce0-cdb8-dcad-bdb3-d109734f61aa@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuf+mq7G7goQsOnY2fNCo9k7VjO2vQgqE-4j579gG85oXw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 12:09 PM Al Kossow via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 4/6/20 11:37 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:
> > Subject line says it all.  The Lambda uses this as its disk controller
> and
> > it's looking like the one in mine needs some debugging.  There doesn't
> seem
> > to be any documentation for this controller out there.  There are docs
> for
> > the Interphase SMD 2180 on Bitsavers but it appears to be a very
> different
> > board.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Josh
> >
>
> Interphase Multibus manuals are pretty rare for some reason. I've been
> looking for the 2181 and 3030 ESDI/MFM
> manuals literally for decades back to when I had SGI IRISs.
>
>
>
Wondering if you can get/inquire from
http://retrotechnology.com/#multi   site.
Manuals are not always listed there, you have to ask.
Bill

From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Apr  7 12:09:08 2020
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 10:09:08 -0700
Subject: ISO: Documentation for Interphase SMD 2181 disk controller
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuf+mq7G7goQsOnY2fNCo9k7VjO2vQgqE-4j579gG85oXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLazGOgA27So5-1B-G3ckLtuQkRWTGupaXQiRXH+6xvZWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <27ebdce0-cdb8-dcad-bdb3-d109734f61aa@bitsavers.org>
 <CABGJBuf+mq7G7goQsOnY2fNCo9k7VjO2vQgqE-4j579gG85oXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d03536fd-f9ee-7a84-14f9-760de32e94aa@bitsavers.org>

On 4/7/20 10:03 AM, Bill Degnan wrote:

> Wondering if you can get/inquire from http://retrotechnology.com/#multi???site.? Manuals are not always listed there, you have to ask.
> Bill

Herb is on the intel-devsys mailing list, I just posted a request over there which would also
get to a bunch of other people with Multibus boards.


From albiorix at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 13:38:48 2020
From: albiorix at gmail.com (Neil Thompson)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 20:38:48 +0200
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
Message-ID: <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>

I never used COBOL on the 150x machines, all of our stuff was done in EBB
(Extended Business Basic), which was a rather bletcherous language IIRC.  I
must admit, I'm rather surprised to learn that something as big a COBOL
would fit on the machine.

On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 at 19:46, jos via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Since you are all talking COBOL now :
>
> ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/ICL1501
>
> There is the manual for the early 70?s COBOL implementation for the
> ICL1501, a small 8K or 16K TTL based personal computer ( TTL based CPU,
> with 2x 74181 ALU and a 32x8 CRT display)
>
> Not the best of scans, but that alas reflects the material I have.
>
> Some other  doku on the ICL1501 is also included :  an operator guide and
> tape utilities user guide.
>
> I do have the tape with the COBOL itself, alas no way yet of gettig it on
> modern hardware.
>
>
> And if anyone has dokumentation on the ICl1503 or 1501/43, in particular
> the Diablo drive interface then I sure would like to see it !
>
> Have the kontroller, but no documentation...
>
>
> Al, as always, feel free to add any and all to bitsavers.
>
>
> Jos
>
>
>

From commodorejohn at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 13:31:21 2020
From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 11:31:21 -0700
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
Message-ID: <CABCBCvPHBeBPNNhZ_xuZWLnzXGZbLCX7YTJWbDFoxCN9PW=uvw@mail.gmail.com>

> From: Neil Thompson <albiorix at gmail.com>
>
> I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
> comments were full of horseshit.  In my opinion, it's the ability to
> translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
> programming, and anyone who has managed to learn (particularly on their
> own, as many of us did) that ability has learned something that transcends
> the language (or tool) you use to implement the algorithm.

There's definitely truth to this. The main thing that makes a good
programmer isn't memorization of language features or syntax, it's
good mental organization and thinking habits; the ability and practice
of really *thinking through* the steps involved in solving a problem,
building a solid mental model of the relevant data structures and
algorithms, and then breaking those down into component steps until
one arrives at a suitable representation in native-language
operations. If someone has a good understanding of that, they can
apply it (with varying amounts of blood, sweat, and tears) in any
language; if they don't, there's no language in the world that can
impart it to them (no matter *what* the flavor-of-the-decade Savior Of
All Programming Forever is - "Try Swift! It's the new Pascal!")

*That said,* there are definitely some languages that are more
conducive to building these habits than others (and, within each
group, many that emphasize different aspects more or less strongly.) I
can't speak to COBOL as I've never had cause to get any experience
with it, but I would say that BASIC (as in, the old-school,
unstructured BASICs of the Bad Old Days) really does teach you a bunch
of habits that you end up needing to un-learn as soon as you start
working with better languages (not even *newer* languages - ALGOL and
Lisp both predate it.)

Line-#-and-GOTO programming imposes the same burden of bookkeeping and
space-management on the programmer as direct machine-code monitor
hacking and the most primitive assemblers, but without any rational
explanation as to why, so that any novice attempting to create a
program of any real complexity ends up being instilled with a
superstitious dread over the ludicrous non-question of where to put
things - do I space statements N numbers apart? What if I need to add
more than N-1 intervening statements later!? Should I place my
subroutines on even 1000s for easy reference? Will the line numbers
even go high enough!? - the lack of scoped/local variables or any
parameter-passing mechanism for GOSUB makes any non-trivial
modularization nearly impossible, and the READ/DATA structure is just
flat-out demented.

And all that mental exhaustion *before* the newbie even gets to the
*real* challenges of learning to program!

Now, Dijkstra was a self-important ponce given to wild all-or-nothing
proclamations and manifestos (manifestes? Manifesti?) and even if we
give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that his statements
quoted here were meant tongue-in-cheek they're still pretty
ridiculous. And God knows the Appointed Language Messiah in that great
holy war, Pascal, was its own special breed of Hell for novices and
experts alike (array size as type qualifier? Just kill me now...) And
it's definitely true that plenty of people can and did learn to
program in BASIC and still went on to learn better and do Good Things
down the line. But there absolutely are such things as bad programming
languages.

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  7 14:04:47 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 15:04:47 -0400
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

On 4/7/20 2:38 PM, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
> I never used COBOL on the 150x machines, all of our stuff was done in EBB
> (Extended Business Basic), which was a rather bletcherous language IIRC.  I
> must admit, I'm rather surprised to learn that something as big a COBOL
> would fit on the machine.
> 

Why?  I have COBOL running on the Z80 with 48KB of memory and on
the LSI-11 with 28KW of memory.

bill

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Apr  7 14:08:24 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 15:08:24 -0400
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <b0ed76ac-540e-8790-3ea8-9a9da13b598a@alembic.crystel.com>

I think it's even smaller if you have the Commercial Instruction Set on 
your pdp11. :-)

C

On 4/7/2020 3:04 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/7/20 2:38 PM, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
>> I never used COBOL on the 150x machines, all of our stuff was done in EBB
>> (Extended Business Basic), which was a rather bletcherous language 
>> IIRC.? I
>> must admit, I'm rather surprised to learn that something as big a COBOL
>> would fit on the machine.
>>
> 
> Why?? I have COBOL running on the Z80 with 48KB of memory and on
> the LSI-11 with 28KW of memory.
> 
> bill

From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Tue Apr  7 14:11:25 2020
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 14:11:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>

> On April 7, 2020 at 2:04 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 4/7/20 2:38 PM, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:> I never used COBOL on the 150x machines, all of our stuff was done in EBB(Extended Business Basic), which was a rather bletcherous language IIRC. Imust admit, I'm rather surprised to learn that something as big a COBOLwould fit on the machine.Why? I have COBOL running on the Z80 with 48KB of memory and onthe LSI-11 with 28KW of memory.
> bill

And of course there is this :-)
http://www.keil.com/cobolad.pdf


"The names of global variables should start with    // "  -- https://isocpp.org

From albiorix at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 17:24:00 2020
From: albiorix at gmail.com (Neil Thompson)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 00:24:00 +0200
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CA+2pV55w1AMLwopYv7_cVq2k6bFsGf5LbgH11hPy+-=vWMdHyw@mail.gmail.com>

Why?  Because we used to run out of resources regularly on that machine
writing the stuff in EBB, which was also compiled (I may be wrong, but I
seem to remember compiling stuff on it).  And BASIC, even EBB, is generally
smaller than COBOL.

On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 at 21:04, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 4/7/20 2:38 PM, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
> > I never used COBOL on the 150x machines, all of our stuff was done in EBB
> > (Extended Business Basic), which was a rather bletcherous language
> IIRC.  I
> > must admit, I'm rather surprised to learn that something as big a COBOL
> > would fit on the machine.
> >
>
> Why?  I have COBOL running on the Z80 with 48KB of memory and on
> the LSI-11 with 28KW of memory.
>
> bill
>

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Tue Apr  7 17:34:38 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 23:34:38 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert
via
> cctalk
> Sent: 06 April 2020 21:07
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU
> 
> On 2020-Apr-05, at 11:12 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have obtained a scope trace as you suggest. R32 is still lifted so
> >>> the
> >>> UC3842 is powered by the bench PSU, but I am using the full 240VAC
> >>> (no variac). The channels are:
> >>> 1.	Ch1. 555 timer.
> >>> 2.	Ch2. D19 Anode
> >>> 3.	Ch3. D19 Gate.
> >>> 4.	Ch4. Q1 Source.
> >
> > Sorry, that looks like a cut and paste error, here is the link to the
> > scope picture
> > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-primary-scr-trigger
> > .png
> >
> > I used a 100ms timebase for the capture and then "zoomed in" a bit
> 
> 
> You would need to zoom in far more to see what's going on when the SCR
> triggers, to cover just a few cycles around the trigger time.
> 
> Once an SCR has been triggerred, the gate becomes a voltage/current
supply, a
> diode drop above 0.
> You see this on your trace in that after triggerring the gate sits at
something +V
> above 0.
> The spike you see may just be an artifact of the internal SCR trigger
action.
> I presume you see some increased current draw from your bench supply for
the
> 3842 after the SCR triggers.
> 
> What's up with channel 2? Above you say it's D19 anode which is 3842 Vcc
but
> it shows on the trace as just noise around 0V.
> 
> I would still suggest that you scope the state of the secondary-side
crowbar -
> the gate of Q2, and base of Q4.
> Should be simple to do, before trying to remove or disconnect the main
> transformer.

Oh dear! After Brent's question about D19 anode, I realise that the probe
was connected to the cathode! I have now done it again with the probe
connected to the anode. I have taken two images of the same capture, one at
low resolution to show the overall behaviour

https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-1.png

And one zoomed in to show what happens when the SCR shuts down.

https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-detail-2.
png

The channels are the same as before, namely:
Ch1. 555 timer.
Ch2. D19 Anode (now corrected as it was previously the cathode!)
Ch3. D19 Gate.
Ch4. Q1 Source.

I got an earlier trace which showed the D19 anode at 9V, which is under the
Undervoltage Lockout threshold, but I have not been able to repeat it.

I don't fully understand the debate about using the variac. However, my
measurements appear to suggest that when I use the variac the SCR triggers
because of what appears to be a genuine overcurrent detected by R13. I think
this is because the duty cycle at low AC input voltages is 50% (rather than
about 10% or less as per the trace I have just taken), and I measured 2V
across R13, which does seem to be enough to trigger the SCR. When I use
220VAC, the voltage across R13 does rise to 6V, which should also trigger
the SCR I think, except that the peak last a lot less and so perhaps the
fact that the 6V last for a brief period is insufficient to trigger it?

I have seen the suggestions to study the waveforms at a much higher
resolution. What I am doing is setting the overall timebase in the 100ms
range so that I can trigger on when the 555 starts to oscillate and capture
the whole period of operation until the SCR triggers. I can then zoom in, as
can be seen from the trace provided in this email. I hope that is good
enough, or am I missing some problem with doing it this way?

I would like to follow Mattis's suggestions (and other people have said it
too) to break the feedback loop, but it does look difficult to know how best
to do it.

I also understand Brent's suggestion that the gate spike is just the result
of the SCR triggering, rather then the cause of the trigger. I had wondered
if that might be the case.

Regards

Rob


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Apr  7 17:48:17 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 15:48:17 -0700
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <CA+2pV55w1AMLwopYv7_cVq2k6bFsGf5LbgH11hPy+-=vWMdHyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CA+2pV55w1AMLwopYv7_cVq2k6bFsGf5LbgH11hPy+-=vWMdHyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b8764c16-f258-c36b-9c5e-1351040e1fe2@sydex.com>

On 4/7/20 3:24 PM, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
> Why?  Because we used to run out of resources regularly on that machine
> writing the stuff in EBB, which was also compiled (I may be wrong, but I
> seem to remember compiling stuff on it).  And BASIC, even EBB, is generally
> smaller than COBOL.

COBOL provides for better data typing than most other languages.  (COMP,
COMP-1, COMP-2 or COMP-3), picture clauses, data structuring, etc.

If what you need is simple, maybe BASIC is fine.  But it's not the
end-all by any means.

--Chuck


From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  7 18:28:59 2020
From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 18:28:59 -0500
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <E1jLu1d-000CLq-IP@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>, 
 <E1jLgqf-0006xc-7i@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <5b75572fc6f85beb19afa8de09bc26a8@yahoo.com>
 <E1jLu1d-000CLq-IP@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <24c6e23f9a6bfe7ab7655d6e99525862@yahoo.com>

On 2020-04-07 14:36, J. David Bryan via cctech wrote:
> Both Access and F allow the user to input programs by using the paper 
> tape
> reader that's part of the ASR 33 Teletype.  But the simulated terminal
> multiplexer supports only KSR 33 models (no punch or reader).

ASR 33 is what we used in HS. Still have a box of paper tapes from back 
then that I suspect I'll never be able to do anything with again but the 
pack rat in me refuses to let go. Every so often I consider trying to 
decode them again.

For now I'll probably cut/paste a few of the CSL programs I'm most 
interested in and go from there I suppose.

> There's an HP 2000 users' group at:
> 
>   https://groups.io/g/hp2000family
> 
> They might have some additional ideas or know where to locate a 
> compatible
> CSL tape.

That's the old Yahoo group isn't it? I had joined them on Yahoo years 
ago but never did much there.

Any other suggestions of interesting operating systems or software to 
try out besides TSB? Interesting development environments or uncommon or 
unusual languages tend to grab my interest. Not sure what all was 
available for the hardware.

David Williams

From couryhouse at aol.com  Tue Apr  7 18:35:54 2020
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 23:35:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <24c6e23f9a6bfe7ab7655d6e99525862@yahoo.com>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>
 <E1jLgqf-0006xc-7i@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <5b75572fc6f85beb19afa8de09bc26a8@yahoo.com>
 <E1jLu1d-000CLq-IP@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <24c6e23f9a6bfe7ab7655d6e99525862@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1202825580.1492121.1586302554446@mail.yahoo.com>

yes old? yahoo? group? but? the io? group looks? dead>ed#
In a message dated 4/7/2020 4:29:50 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

That's the old Yahoo group isn't it? I had joined them on Yahoo years 
ago but never did much there.

Any other suggestions of interesting operating systems or software to 
try out besides TSB? Interesting development environments or uncommon or 
unusual languages tend to grab my interest. Not sure what all was 
available for the hardware.

David Williams

From matt at 9track.net  Tue Apr  7 19:24:59 2020
From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 01:24:59 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <e715c16b-4828-2385-882b-4f5f1b1fc893@9track.net>

On 07/04/2020 23:34, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> I have seen the suggestions to study the waveforms at a much higher
> resolution. What I am doing is setting the overall timebase in the 100ms
> range so that I can trigger on when the 555 starts to oscillate and capture
> the whole period of operation until the SCR triggers. I can then zoom in, as
> can be seen from the trace provided in this email. I hope that is good
> enough, or am I missing some problem with doing it this way?
>

The timebase will also affect the sampling rate (due to the finite
memory depth) so some finer details of the waveform may not be captured
when running at a slower rate.

Matt

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Apr  7 21:36:25 2020
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:36:25 -0500
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <24c6e23f9a6bfe7ab7655d6e99525862@yahoo.com>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>,
 <E1jLgqf-0006xc-7i@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <5b75572fc6f85beb19afa8de09bc26a8@yahoo.com>
 <E1jLu1d-000CLq-IP@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <24c6e23f9a6bfe7ab7655d6e99525862@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000401d60d4e$80916230$81b42690$@classiccmp.org>

David wrote...
Any other suggestions of interesting operating systems or software to try
out besides TSB? Interesting development environments or uncommon or unusual
languages tend to grab my interest. Not sure what all was available for the
hardware.
----------

Yes. http://newton.freehostia.com/hp/hpiplos.html#about

j



From jdbryan at acm.org  Wed Apr  8 00:26:39 2020
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 01:26:39 -0400
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <24c6e23f9a6bfe7ab7655d6e99525862@yahoo.com>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>,
 <E1jLu1d-000CLq-IP@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <24c6e23f9a6bfe7ab7655d6e99525862@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1jM3EP-0005VP-KT@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 18:28, David Williams via cctalk wrote:

> Still have a box of paper tapes from back then that I suspect I'll
> never be able to do anything with again but the pack rat in me refuses
> to let go. Every so often I consider trying to decode them again. 

Assuming that your tapes are sources, there are several folks with 
operational HP 21xx/1000 computers who probably have paper-tape-reading 
capability.  Dumping the tape to a PC-hosted terminal emulator can capture 
the text into a host-PC file, which can then be loaded into the simulator 
via the simulated paper tape reader.  So I wouldn't discard them just yet.

I had retained a stack of 1/2" mag tape dumps of our company RTE system 
holding all of the programs I had written over a period of twenty years or 
so.  A fellow enthusiast in my area (Mike Gemeny) kindly copied them to 
SIMH-compatible tape images, which I was then able to use to recreate our 
company system under simulation.


> That's the old Yahoo group isn't it?

It is.  I think they were migrating from Yahoo to the groups.io site.


> Any other suggestions of interesting operating systems or software to
> try out besides TSB? Interesting development environments or uncommon
> or unusual languages tend to grab my interest.

The RTE (Real-Time Executive) family of operating systems had a long run at 
HP -- from about 1968 through 2005 or so, with a dozen or so variants from 
simple to sophisticated.  Languages supported included the HP assembler, 
FORTRAN IV, ALGOL 60 (partial), BASIC, Fortran 77, and Pascal.  The RTE-II 
software kit on the HP simulator site has the assembler and FORTRAN IV 
compiler preloaded, and it's easy to add the ALGOL compiler from the HP 
software collection on Bitsavers.  Fortran 77 and Pascal required later 
versions of RTE (I intend to get kits posted for these before too long).

Perhaps most interesting to me is a SNOBOL3 interpreter in the HP 
contributed library that ran under the DOS-III operating system.  It was 
written by HP Grenoble, and all of the prompts and error messages were in 
French.  I used it to write a runoff clone way back when.  Still have my 
"SNOBOL3 Primer" by Allen Forte (MIT Press, 1968) sitting on my bookshelf.

                                      -- Dave


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed Apr  8 01:37:42 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 07:37:42 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <e715c16b-4828-2385-882b-4f5f1b1fc893@9track.net>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
 <e715c16b-4828-2385-882b-4f5f1b1fc893@9track.net>
Message-ID: <007c01d60d70$353e9380$9fbbba80$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Matt Burke via
> cctalk
> Sent: 08 April 2020 01:25
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU
> 
> On 07/04/2020 23:34, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> > I have seen the suggestions to study the waveforms at a much higher
> > resolution. What I am doing is setting the overall timebase in the
> > 100ms range so that I can trigger on when the 555 starts to oscillate
> > and capture the whole period of operation until the SCR triggers. I
> > can then zoom in, as can be seen from the trace provided in this
> > email. I hope that is good enough, or am I missing some problem with doing
> it this way?
> >
> 
> The timebase will also affect the sampling rate (due to the finite memory
> depth) so some finer details of the waveform may not be captured when
> running at a slower rate.
> 

I did have this in mind but it seemed to me that the sampling was fine enough. To be sure though, I just now changed my trigger to capture the drop in the D19 anode voltage and set the timebase to 10us, but the results looked identical. I couldn't see any spikes that were different to the pictures I posted last night.

Thanks

Rob
 
> Matt


From mattislind at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 01:41:36 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 08:41:36 +0200
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82S+EKPkjY8JCjKh2Oe5962WhiFw-D3nEWYbwO1Pa2rNf3g@mail.gmail.com>

Den ons 8 apr. 2020 kl 00:34 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org>:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert
> via
> > cctalk
> > Sent: 06 April 2020 21:07
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU
> >
> > On 2020-Apr-05, at 11:12 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I have obtained a scope trace as you suggest. R32 is still lifted so
> > >>> the
> > >>> UC3842 is powered by the bench PSU, but I am using the full 240VAC
> > >>> (no variac). The channels are:
> > >>> 1.        Ch1. 555 timer.
> > >>> 2.        Ch2. D19 Anode
> > >>> 3.        Ch3. D19 Gate.
> > >>> 4.        Ch4. Q1 Source.
> > >
> > > Sorry, that looks like a cut and paste error, here is the link to the
> > > scope picture
> > > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-primary-scr-trigger
> > > .png
> > >
> > > I used a 100ms timebase for the capture and then "zoomed in" a bit
> >
> >
> > You would need to zoom in far more to see what's going on when the SCR
> > triggers, to cover just a few cycles around the trigger time.
> >
> > Once an SCR has been triggerred, the gate becomes a voltage/current
> supply, a
> > diode drop above 0.
> > You see this on your trace in that after triggerring the gate sits at
> something +V
> > above 0.
> > The spike you see may just be an artifact of the internal SCR trigger
> action.
> > I presume you see some increased current draw from your bench supply for
> the
> > 3842 after the SCR triggers.
> >
> > What's up with channel 2? Above you say it's D19 anode which is 3842 Vcc
> but
> > it shows on the trace as just noise around 0V.
> >
> > I would still suggest that you scope the state of the secondary-side
> crowbar -
> > the gate of Q2, and base of Q4.
> > Should be simple to do, before trying to remove or disconnect the main
> > transformer.
>
> Oh dear! After Brent's question about D19 anode, I realise that the probe
> was connected to the cathode! I have now done it again with the probe
> connected to the anode. I have taken two images of the same capture, one at
> low resolution to show the overall behaviour
>
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-1.png
>
> And one zoomed in to show what happens when the SCR shuts down.
>
>
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-detail-2.
> png
> <https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-detail-2.png>
>
> The channels are the same as before, namely:
> Ch1. 555 timer.
> Ch2. D19 Anode (now corrected as it was previously the cathode!)
> Ch3. D19 Gate.
> Ch4. Q1 Source.
>
> I got an earlier trace which showed the D19 anode at 9V, which is under the
> Undervoltage Lockout threshold, but I have not been able to repeat it.
>
> I don't fully understand the debate about using the variac.


I am not going to debate this either since I know what I have been doing
for years and it works perfectly well for me. I have fixed the bigger PSUs
in a VAX 11/750 (one broken switch transistor and multiple broken output
rectifiers). PSU in NORD-10/S (most carbon composition resistors had gone
out of spec). PSUs in many smaller machines as well.

I prefer to work in circuits where I can fiddle around without the danger
of getting killed all the time. Regardless of use of HV differential probe
it can be dangerous. Running it on 50VAC with a protection transformer do
expose a lot of problems already and you can poke around safely in the PSU.
I have not yet seen a problem that wasn't seen at low voltage, but I expect
there could be semiconductors that experience breakdown that occur at lower
than specified voltage.



> However, my
> measurements appear to suggest that when I use the variac the SCR triggers
> because of what appears to be a genuine overcurrent detected by R13. I
> think
> this is because the duty cycle at low AC input voltages is 50% (rather than
> about 10% or less as per the trace I have just taken), and I measured 2V
> across R13, which does seem to be enough to trigger the SCR. When I use
> 220VAC, the voltage across R13 does rise to 6V, which should also trigger
> the SCR I think, except that the peak last a lot less and so perhaps the
> fact that the 6V last for a brief period is insufficient to trigger it?
>


On the issue of duty cycle. If we look at this from the start up
perspective rather than the steady state perspective. At startup there are
no stored energy in the output filter capacitors. The voltage on the output
is thus 0. As soon as the PSU is doing its first switching pulse energy is
transfered as the main switch transistor is cutting off. The energy is
transfered into the capacitor and into the load. The voltage is starting to
increase.

The duty cycle generated by the PWM circuitry is in pure relation to the
voltage error, i.e. the difference between output voltage and reference
voltage. In essence it is a P-regulator.

When there are 0 Volt out the duty cycle will be at the maximum. Nothing
strange about that. But what is maximum duty cycle? It depends on the
circuitry used. The UC3842 can do up to almost 100% duty cycle. However it
may be wise to limit duty cycle in a flyback design so that the transformer
is not saturated. I am not sure if there is some kind of duty cycle
limitation in this circuit though.

So if it can handle 50% duty cycle at startup it should be able to handle
it at any time. Besides it would be incredible weird to design a circuit to
use a 10% duty cycle at its standard operating point and detecting over
current at 50%. Then you have much less head room for load and input
variations.

I am more or less convinced that what you see on the primary side is a
result of some kind of fault on the secondary side.
A very common problem is short-circuit rectifier diodes on the secondary
side (D12, D11, D21, D22, D23, D24). They can be difficult to measure
correctly in circuit since the resistance of the secondaries of the
transformer is so low. Depending on type you can either desolder them
completely or just lift one end of them.

My experience is that electrolytic capacitors seldom short circuit. They
probably boil and explode instead. Tantalum capacitors often short circuit.
Some of them goes into fire other just stay short circuit. So check for
tantalum capacitors and try to measure them for short circuit.

You have a crowbar on the secondary side. Are you sure that one hasn't
triggered? If you still run on variac you can disable the crowbar circuit
by removing the SCR and ramp up the voltage slowly to see if that makes any
difference.

Breaking the feed back loop:

R23 seems to be in the feedback path. If you lift it and insert a voltage
from a lab supply here you could simulate the output voltage and study the
behaviour of the UC3842 for different feed back voltages. You will see that
it will stay on max duty cycle up until close to the nominal voltage and
over a very small span change to almost no pulse out at all. This is due to
the gain of the circuit.

/Mattis


>
> I have seen the suggestions to study the waveforms at a much higher
> resolution. What I am doing is setting the overall timebase in the 100ms
> range so that I can trigger on when the 555 starts to oscillate and capture
> the whole period of operation until the SCR triggers. I can then zoom in,
> as
> can be seen from the trace provided in this email. I hope that is good
> enough, or am I missing some problem with doing it this way?
>
> I would like to follow Mattis's suggestions (and other people have said it
> too) to break the feedback loop, but it does look difficult to know how
> best
> to do it.
>
> I also understand Brent's suggestion that the gate spike is just the result
> of the SCR triggering, rather then the cause of the trigger. I had wondered
> if that might be the case.
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
>

From albiorix at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 02:56:23 2020
From: albiorix at gmail.com (Neil Thompson)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:56:23 +0200
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <b8764c16-f258-c36b-9c5e-1351040e1fe2@sydex.com>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CA+2pV55w1AMLwopYv7_cVq2k6bFsGf5LbgH11hPy+-=vWMdHyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <b8764c16-f258-c36b-9c5e-1351040e1fe2@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CA+2pV5657U4aak9OrpiuGkdpUJbkj1xjQsomQ_3tWgZF-KRf4w@mail.gmail.com>

BASIC was all we had - we used COBOL on the ICL VME 2900 maniframes that
were backending the 15xx machines.  Believe me, if the programming staff
had known COBOL was available on the 15xx machines, we would have moved
heaven and earth to put it on the micros.

So no, not the end-all, and I'm fairly sure I never implied that anywhere.

On Wed, 8 Apr 2020 at 00:48, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 4/7/20 3:24 PM, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
> > Why?  Because we used to run out of resources regularly on that machine
> > writing the stuff in EBB, which was also compiled (I may be wrong, but I
> > seem to remember compiling stuff on it).  And BASIC, even EBB, is
> generally
> > smaller than COBOL.
>
> COBOL provides for better data typing than most other languages.  (COMP,
> COMP-1, COMP-2 or COMP-3), picture clauses, data structuring, etc.
>
> If what you need is simple, maybe BASIC is fine.  But it's not the
> end-all by any means.
>
> --Chuck
>
>

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Apr  7 14:14:45 2020
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 13:14:45 -0600
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <CABCBCvPHBeBPNNhZ_xuZWLnzXGZbLCX7YTJWbDFoxCN9PW=uvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABCBCvPHBeBPNNhZ_xuZWLnzXGZbLCX7YTJWbDFoxCN9PW=uvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <84df3cb5-975e-5d2f-cef5-ce9e95751e1f@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 4/7/2020 12:31 PM, John Ames via cctech wrote:

> *That said,* there are definitely some languages that are more
> conducive to building these habits than others (and, within each
> group, many that emphasize different aspects more or less strongly.) I
> can't speak to COBOL as I've never had cause to get any experience
> with it, but I would say that BASIC (as in, the old-school,
> unstructured BASICs of the Bad Old Days) really does teach you a bunch
> of habits that you end up needing to un-learn as soon as you start
> working with better languages (not even *newer* languages - ALGOL and
> Lisp both predate it.)

Where does a TINY PASCAL compiler written in BASIC fit?
Then you have Some posible better languges that never seem to make it 
out of a LAB or UNIVERSITY. Like CLEOPATRA-comprehensive language for 
elegant operating systems and translator design. 1974
(From the "Internet archive")
The Internet Archive has a lot of good books, that somebody distroyed by 
convering to PDF's the wrong way.

From jdbryan at acm.org  Tue Apr  7 14:36:44 2020
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 15:36:44 -0400
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <5b75572fc6f85beb19afa8de09bc26a8@yahoo.com>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>,
 <E1jLgqf-0006xc-7i@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <5b75572fc6f85beb19afa8de09bc26a8@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1jLu1d-000CLq-IP@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 13:19, David Williams via cctech wrote:

> First I want to say again how much I appreciate your assistance.

You're very welcome.


> Up until now my only experience with this system was as a HS student
> first learning to program and never had any access to the system
> outside of that. Learning a lot reading the manuals for the system as
> well as the doc on Simh and from you.

Prior to SIMH, my experience with TSB had been limited to running an HP 
contributed library program, "HP 2000F BASIC FOR DOS-M/DOS III," on an HP 
1000 M-Series running DOS-III (circa 1975).  Only with simulation have I 
been able to expand my experience, both as a user and as a sysop, to 
include running the C-prime, E, F, and Access versions of TSB.


> Looking at the Access doc on the conversion program's dump command I 
> noticed it says it dumps 2000/Access "BASIC formatted files" which the 
> one file I was able to transfer is where the others are not.

Oops.


> Looking through the manuals to see if there is a different way to save 
> the programs that could work but don't see anything yet.

I had wondered.  HP BASICs store their programs in transliterated form, 
i.e., substituting table index numbers for statement keywords, operators, 
etc.  So, for example, a "10 PRINT" statement gets stored internally as two 
integers -- the line number, and an index into the keyword table.  A "LIST" 
command reconstructs the text representation from the internal form.

So were you to load a program into 2000F that uses an Access feature, the 
stored statement keyword index would be beyond the end of the 2000F table.  
Running or listing that program would then either fail (best case) or send 
the interpreter into the weeds (probable case).  That's the origin of the 
feature code comparison and the warning that if you proceed with the load, 
you take responsibility for the cleanup.


> Haven't looked into punch tape with Simh, is that working?

The system paper tape reader and punch (simulator devices PTR and PTP) work 
under Access.  You can use the Access PUNCH command with the "OUT=" 
redirection option to output to the system punch device; the result is a 
plain-text file listing of your program, albeit with a bunch of NULs for 
tape leader and trailer.

You could do almost the same thing by listing your program to the system 
line printer; this results in a plain-text file, with some extra blank 
lines to divide the output into pages.

Unfortunately, while 2000F has a working system tape reader, TSB does not 
provide a way for users to read programs from it.  It's used only for 
bootstrapping the system.

Both Access and F allow the user to input programs by using the paper tape 
reader that's part of the ASR 33 Teletype.  But the simulated terminal 
multiplexer supports only KSR 33 models (no punch or reader).


> Not sure punching each program and reloading into the 2000F would be
> any better than copy/paste though.

Depending on your host system and Telnet client, you should be able to copy 
an entire text file and paste it into a logged-in TSB session terminal 
emulator in a single operation.  It's not necessary to copy-and-paste each 
line.  So it shouldn't be too difficult to employ this method -- maybe just 
tedious.

2000F provide the TAPE and KEY commands to suppress and then re-enable any 
diagnostic messages generated by the intervening program input.  They may 
be useful if the programs you're pasting might have Access-only features 
that would cause errors when entered.


> Open to any other ideas for getting a bunch of programs back to a 2000F 
> system...

There's an HP 2000 users' group at:

  https://groups.io/g/hp2000family

They might have some additional ideas or know where to locate a compatible 
CSL tape.

                                      -- Dave


From derschjo at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 14:43:59 2020
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 12:43:59 -0700
Subject: ISO: Documentation for Interphase SMD 2181 disk controller
In-Reply-To: <d03536fd-f9ee-7a84-14f9-760de32e94aa@bitsavers.org>
References: <CADBZjLazGOgA27So5-1B-G3ckLtuQkRWTGupaXQiRXH+6xvZWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <27ebdce0-cdb8-dcad-bdb3-d109734f61aa@bitsavers.org>
 <CABGJBuf+mq7G7goQsOnY2fNCo9k7VjO2vQgqE-4j579gG85oXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d03536fd-f9ee-7a84-14f9-760de32e94aa@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLY0Osw7MOMac=xcrD5k7MCBBm6LiZxxE8Y4JR4P-nASQg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:29 AM Al Kossow via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 4/7/20 10:03 AM, Bill Degnan wrote:
>
> > Wondering if you can get/inquire from http://retrotechnology.com/#multi   site.
> Manuals are not always listed there, you have to ask.
> > Bill
>
> Herb is on the intel-devsys mailing list, I just posted a request over
> there which would also
> get to a bunch of other people with Multibus boards.
>
> Thanks, Al!

- Josh

From emu at e-bbes.com  Wed Apr  8 08:18:02 2020
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:18:02 -0400
Subject: Old FORTRAN programs, libraries, graphics
In-Reply-To: <5dba4673-d421-3d1f-73c9-33908fdc42bc@comcast.net>
References: <cb5ce370-76dd-6773-72c9-58e2829aba74@e-bbes.com>
 <0f3d01d60bfa$3bbb79c0$b3326d40$@gmail.com>
 <5dba4673-d421-3d1f-73c9-33908fdc42bc@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <c65fe2ef-7b93-a3bd-6c91-ea750eb2c43d@e-bbes.com>

On 2020-04-06 22:48, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote:
> Got similar interests here.? I've been using PGPLOT on the Vax since it
> came out, the price was right!
> Tried to get it to work with a Tektronix 4207, but something is a little
> different between it and the 4105 series.
> I was able to get an old version of Gnuplot (3.4) to compile and run on
> a Vax alpha under Openvms 8.4.
> It wouldn't compile on a 32 Vax under OpenVms 7.3, too bad, I had wanted
> to run gnuplot on that machine.? Maybe I needed an older version of
> gnuplot.

That's pretty much the setup I was trying. VAX & PDP11, an some fun ;-)

However, a Tektronix Terminal is still not in the budget or space, so I
will probably go with the RPI 4 setup

https://github.com/rricharz/Tek4010

But probably just use a Ubuntu for the display, as it gives a better
resolution ...

CHEERS!

> On 4/6/2020 6:00 AM, Dave Wade via cctech wrote:
>> I have been using PGPLOT but I guess you are aware of that.
>>
>> https://www.astro.caltech.edu/~tjp/pgplot/
>>
>> I also wonder if you might be interested in
>>
>> https://github.com/rricharz/Tek4010
>>
>> what I was looking for was a Calcomp Basic Plotting calls to HPGL as
>> most of my plotters are HPLG and would like to plot some of the
>> Calcomp sample plots on them
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of emanuel
>>> stiebler
>>> via cctalk
>>> Sent: 05 April 2020 14:22
>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only <cctech at classiccmp.org>
>>> Subject: Old FORTRAN programs, libraries, graphics
>>>
>>> Being stuck at home, was musing the idea to look into some graphics
>>> software from the '70's, or early 80's ...
>>>
>>> Looking for some wire frames, hidden line removal, 3d graphics...
>>>
>>> Any pointers?
>>>
>>> View month ago or longer, somebody on this list recovered some large
>>> package of FORTRAN code, and wanted to invest it, but I think it was
>>> posted
>>> under a wrong subject, so I can't find it anymore ...
>>>
>>> THANKS!
> 
> 


From Rice43 at btinternet.com  Wed Apr  8 12:44:41 2020
From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 18:44:41 +0100
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <20200407130415.BE0E618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20200407130415.BE0E618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <65638DAA-AADF-4D17-B4F1-162FBEC9379A@btinternet.com>

Late to the party, but there?s PDP11 keys sold on ebay here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEC-PDP-8-PDP-11-Computer-Key-XX2247-Digital-PDP-8E-8I-8L-8S/333296145346?epid=2164686531&hash=item4d99ff93c2:g:nWcAAOSwZtlZ7TIB <https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEC-PDP-8-PDP-11-Computer-Key-XX2247-Digital-PDP-8E-8I-8L-8S/333296145346?epid=2164686531&hash=item4d99ff93c2:g:nWcAAOSwZtlZ7TIB>

I?m 100% sure your local locksmith / cobblers / hardware shop can do it cheaper. 

> On Apr 7, 2020, at 2:04 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> From: Ian McLaughlin
> 
>> I can confirm that about 6 months ago I gave this very information to
>> our corporate locksmith, and he was able to make a key for me that
>> works.
> 
> Thanks for the confirmation that that info is sufficient to produce a working
> key. I have updated the page to indicate that the info has been confirmed.
> 
> 	Noel


From drb at msu.edu  Wed Apr  8 12:54:17 2020
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 13:54:17 -0400
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 08 Apr 2020 18:44:41 +0100.)
 <65638DAA-AADF-4D17-B4F1-162FBEC9379A@btinternet.com>
References: <65638DAA-AADF-4D17-B4F1-162FBEC9379A@btinternet.com>
 <20200407130415.BE0E618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20200408175417.8E6CD2BBC1F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > Late to the party, but there?s PDP11 keys sold on ebay here:

Though that may be useful to many, it's the wrong key for this thread.

De

From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  8 13:42:25 2020
From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 13:42:25 -0500
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <E1jM3EP-0005VP-KT@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>, 
 <E1jLu1d-000CLq-IP@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <24c6e23f9a6bfe7ab7655d6e99525862@yahoo.com>
 <E1jM3EP-0005VP-KT@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <247be7d2c88562e1617c306a3d1c8f98@yahoo.com>

On 2020-04-08 00:26, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote:
> Assuming that your tapes are sources, there are several folks with
> operational HP 21xx/1000 computers who probably have paper-tape-reading
> capability.  Dumping the tape to a PC-hosted terminal emulator can 
> capture
> the text into a host-PC file, which can then be loaded into the 
> simulator
> via the simulated paper tape reader.  So I wouldn't discard them just 
> yet.

They won't be discarded until my kids decide that all this crazy stuff 
they inherited isn't meaningful enough to them to keep around. :)

> I had retained a stack of 1/2" mag tape dumps of our company RTE system
> holding all of the programs I had written over a period of twenty years 
> or
> so.  A fellow enthusiast in my area (Mike Gemeny) kindly copied them to
> SIMH-compatible tape images, which I was then able to use to recreate 
> our
> company system under simulation.

I have some old tapes from my Honeywell 66/60 GCOS days that I sometimes 
wonder if I could still get dumped. No idea what is even on them any 
more. I've brought up the DPS8 emulator with Multics but to be able to 
actually run my old GCOS again would be a dream come true.

> The RTE (Real-Time Executive) family of operating systems had a long 
> run at
> HP -- from about 1968 through 2005 or so, with a dozen or so variants 
> from
> simple to sophisticated.  Languages supported included the HP 
> assembler,
> FORTRAN IV, ALGOL 60 (partial), BASIC, Fortran 77, and Pascal.  The 
> RTE-II
> software kit on the HP simulator site has the assembler and FORTRAN IV
> compiler preloaded, and it's easy to add the ALGOL compiler from the HP
> software collection on Bitsavers.  Fortran 77 and Pascal required later
> versions of RTE (I intend to get kits posted for these before too 
> long).
> 
> Perhaps most interesting to me is a SNOBOL3 interpreter in the HP
> contributed library that ran under the DOS-III operating system.  It 
> was
> written by HP Grenoble, and all of the prompts and error messages were 
> in
> French.  I used it to write a runoff clone way back when.  Still have 
> my
> "SNOBOL3 Primer" by Allen Forte (MIT Press, 1968) sitting on my 
> bookshelf.

Ah SNOBOL... I discovered that language shortly before graduating HS and 
always wanted to play around with it but never had an instillation where 
I could. ALGOL as well. Thanks for the suggestions, I'll check some of 
that out too.

Thanks.
David Williams

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed Apr  8 16:24:47 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 22:24:47 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <CABr82S+EKPkjY8JCjKh2Oe5962WhiFw-D3nEWYbwO1Pa2rNf3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+EKPkjY8JCjKh2Oe5962WhiFw-D3nEWYbwO1Pa2rNf3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ca01d60dec$21733690$6459a3b0$@ntlworld.com>

I will look at all the suggestions, particularly of a failure on the secondary side. Something must have burned up, because there was a distinct burning smell after the initial failure, although I have never been able to see any physical damage to anything, despite looking many times.

 

But the thing that really puzzles me is that, after correcting the probes to include the D19 anode, there doesn?t seem to be anything that would cause D19 to trigger. Am I reading the trace wrong?

 

Thanks

 

Rob

 

From: Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com> 
Sent: 08 April 2020 07:42
To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU

 

 

 

Den ons 8 apr. 2020 kl 00:34 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >:



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> > On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert
via
> cctalk
> Sent: 06 April 2020 21:07
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >
> Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU
> 
> On 2020-Apr-05, at 11:12 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have obtained a scope trace as you suggest. R32 is still lifted so
> >>> the
> >>> UC3842 is powered by the bench PSU, but I am using the full 240VAC
> >>> (no variac). The channels are:
> >>> 1.        Ch1. 555 timer.
> >>> 2.        Ch2. D19 Anode
> >>> 3.        Ch3. D19 Gate.
> >>> 4.        Ch4. Q1 Source.
> >
> > Sorry, that looks like a cut and paste error, here is the link to the
> > scope picture
> > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-primary-scr-trigger
> > .png
> >
> > I used a 100ms timebase for the capture and then "zoomed in" a bit
> 
> 
> You would need to zoom in far more to see what's going on when the SCR
> triggers, to cover just a few cycles around the trigger time.
> 
> Once an SCR has been triggerred, the gate becomes a voltage/current
supply, a
> diode drop above 0.
> You see this on your trace in that after triggerring the gate sits at
something +V
> above 0.
> The spike you see may just be an artifact of the internal SCR trigger
action.
> I presume you see some increased current draw from your bench supply for
the
> 3842 after the SCR triggers.
> 
> What's up with channel 2? Above you say it's D19 anode which is 3842 Vcc
but
> it shows on the trace as just noise around 0V.
> 
> I would still suggest that you scope the state of the secondary-side
crowbar -
> the gate of Q2, and base of Q4.
> Should be simple to do, before trying to remove or disconnect the main
> transformer.

Oh dear! After Brent's question about D19 anode, I realise that the probe
was connected to the cathode! I have now done it again with the probe
connected to the anode. I have taken two images of the same capture, one at
low resolution to show the overall behaviour

https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-1.png

And one zoomed in to show what happens when the SCR shuts down.

https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-detail-2. <https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-detail-2.png> 
png

The channels are the same as before, namely:
Ch1. 555 timer.
Ch2. D19 Anode (now corrected as it was previously the cathode!)
Ch3. D19 Gate.
Ch4. Q1 Source.

I got an earlier trace which showed the D19 anode at 9V, which is under the
Undervoltage Lockout threshold, but I have not been able to repeat it.

I don't fully understand the debate about using the variac. 

 

I am not going to debate this either since I know what I have been doing for years and it works perfectly well for me. I have fixed the bigger PSUs in a VAX 11/750 (one broken switch transistor and multiple broken output rectifiers). PSU in NORD-10/S (most carbon composition resistors had gone out of spec). PSUs in many smaller machines as well.

 

I prefer to work in circuits where I can fiddle around without the danger of getting killed all the time. Regardless of use of HV differential probe it can be dangerous. Running it on 50VAC with a protection transformer do expose a lot of problems already and you can poke around safely in the PSU.

I have not yet seen a problem that wasn't seen at low voltage, but I expect there could be semiconductors that experience breakdown that occur at lower than specified voltage.

 

 

However, my
measurements appear to suggest that when I use the variac the SCR triggers
because of what appears to be a genuine overcurrent detected by R13. I think
this is because the duty cycle at low AC input voltages is 50% (rather than
about 10% or less as per the trace I have just taken), and I measured 2V
across R13, which does seem to be enough to trigger the SCR. When I use
220VAC, the voltage across R13 does rise to 6V, which should also trigger
the SCR I think, except that the peak last a lot less and so perhaps the
fact that the 6V last for a brief period is insufficient to trigger it?

 

 

On the issue of duty cycle. If we look at this from the start up perspective rather than the steady state perspective. At startup there are no stored energy in the output filter capacitors. The voltage on the output is thus 0. As soon as the PSU is doing its first switching pulse energy is transfered as the main switch transistor is cutting off. The energy is transfered into the capacitor and into the load. The voltage is starting to increase.

 

The duty cycle generated by the PWM circuitry is in pure relation to the voltage error, i.e. the difference between output voltage and reference voltage. In essence it is a P-regulator. 

 

When there are 0 Volt out the duty cycle will be at the maximum. Nothing strange about that. But what is maximum duty cycle? It depends on the circuitry used. The UC3842 can do up to almost 100% duty cycle. However it may be wise to limit duty cycle in a flyback design so that the transformer is not saturated. I am not sure if there is some kind of duty cycle limitation in this circuit though.

 

So if it can handle 50% duty cycle at startup it should be able to handle it at any time. Besides it would be incredible weird to design a circuit to use a 10% duty cycle at its standard operating point and detecting over current at 50%. Then you have much less head room for load and input variations.

 

I am more or less convinced that what you see on the primary side is a result of some kind of fault on the secondary side. 

A very common problem is short-circuit rectifier diodes on the secondary side (D12, D11, D21, D22, D23, D24). They can be difficult to measure correctly in circuit since the resistance of the secondaries of the transformer is so low. Depending on type you can either desolder them completely or just lift one end of them.

 

My experience is that electrolytic capacitors seldom short circuit. They probably boil and explode instead. Tantalum capacitors often short circuit. Some of them goes into fire other just stay short circuit. So check for tantalum capacitors and try to measure them for short circuit.

 

You have a crowbar on the secondary side. Are you sure that one hasn't triggered? If you still run on variac you can disable the crowbar circuit by removing the SCR and ramp up the voltage slowly to see if that makes any difference. 

 

Breaking the feed back loop:

 

R23 seems to be in the feedback path. If you lift it and insert a voltage from a lab supply here you could simulate the output voltage and study the behaviour of the UC3842 for different feed back voltages. You will see that it will stay on max duty cycle up until close to the nominal voltage and over a very small span change to almost no pulse out at all. This is due to the gain of the circuit.

 

/Mattis

  


I have seen the suggestions to study the waveforms at a much higher
resolution. What I am doing is setting the overall timebase in the 100ms
range so that I can trigger on when the 555 starts to oscillate and capture
the whole period of operation until the SCR triggers. I can then zoom in, as
can be seen from the trace provided in this email. I hope that is good
enough, or am I missing some problem with doing it this way?

I would like to follow Mattis's suggestions (and other people have said it
too) to break the feedback loop, but it does look difficult to know how best
to do it.

I also understand Brent's suggestion that the gate spike is just the result
of the SCR triggering, rather then the cause of the trigger. I had wondered
if that might be the case.

Regards

Rob


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Apr  8 16:41:54 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 14:41:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <65638DAA-AADF-4D17-B4F1-162FBEC9379A@btinternet.com>
References: <20200407130415.BE0E618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <65638DAA-AADF-4D17-B4F1-162FBEC9379A@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004081431560.24811@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 8 Apr 2020, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
> Late to the party, but there?s PDP11 keys sold on ebay here: 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEC-PDP-8-PDP-11-Computer-Key-XX2247-Digital-PDP-8E-8I-8L-8S/333296145346?epid=2164686531&hash=item4d99ff93c2:g:nWcAAOSwZtlZ7TIB 
> <https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEC-PDP-8-PDP-11-Computer-Key-XX2247-Digital-PDP-8E-8I-8L-8S/333296145346?epid=2164686531&hash=item4d99ff93c2:g:nWcAAOSwZtlZ7TIB>
> I?m 100% sure your local locksmith / cobblers / hardware shop can do 
> it cheaper.

MOST of the other PDP machines use the XX2247 key, which is a tubular one.
But, THIS thread is about the weird one that is NOT tubular.


I have a few padlocks that use tubular keys.  I've been considering 
rekeying them to XX2247, and using one for my shed, since I don't think 
that the thieves around here are into obsolete computers.
I've never re-pinned a tubular lock, so it might be fun.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From leec2124 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 10:55:46 2020
From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 08:55:46 -0700
Subject: Old FORTRAN programs, libraries, graphics
In-Reply-To: <c65fe2ef-7b93-a3bd-6c91-ea750eb2c43d@e-bbes.com>
References: <cb5ce370-76dd-6773-72c9-58e2829aba74@e-bbes.com>
 <0f3d01d60bfa$3bbb79c0$b3326d40$@gmail.com>
 <5dba4673-d421-3d1f-73c9-33908fdc42bc@comcast.net>
 <c65fe2ef-7b93-a3bd-6c91-ea750eb2c43d@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <CAG_uPVEG9Zf9AqUhm-YDYDV4dakPEKNBUwkykSGbxRcRYs_kwQ@mail.gmail.com>

You've seen this, right?

http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/FORTRAN

Lee Courtney

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 8:35 AM emanuel stiebler via cctech <
cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 2020-04-06 22:48, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote:
> > Got similar interests here.  I've been using PGPLOT on the Vax since it
> > came out, the price was right!
> > Tried to get it to work with a Tektronix 4207, but something is a little
> > different between it and the 4105 series.
> > I was able to get an old version of Gnuplot (3.4) to compile and run on
> > a Vax alpha under Openvms 8.4.
> > It wouldn't compile on a 32 Vax under OpenVms 7.3, too bad, I had wanted
> > to run gnuplot on that machine.  Maybe I needed an older version of
> > gnuplot.
>
> That's pretty much the setup I was trying. VAX & PDP11, an some fun ;-)
>
> However, a Tektronix Terminal is still not in the budget or space, so I
> will probably go with the RPI 4 setup
>
> https://github.com/rricharz/Tek4010
>
> But probably just use a Ubuntu for the display, as it gives a better
> resolution ...
>
> CHEERS!
>
> > On 4/6/2020 6:00 AM, Dave Wade via cctech wrote:
> >> I have been using PGPLOT but I guess you are aware of that.
> >>
> >> https://www.astro.caltech.edu/~tjp/pgplot/
> >>
> >> I also wonder if you might be interested in
> >>
> >> https://github.com/rricharz/Tek4010
> >>
> >> what I was looking for was a Calcomp Basic Plotting calls to HPGL as
> >> most of my plotters are HPLG and would like to plot some of the
> >> Calcomp sample plots on them
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of emanuel
> >>> stiebler
> >>> via cctalk
> >>> Sent: 05 April 2020 14:22
> >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> >>> Subject: Old FORTRAN programs, libraries, graphics
> >>>
> >>> Being stuck at home, was musing the idea to look into some graphics
> >>> software from the '70's, or early 80's ...
> >>>
> >>> Looking for some wire frames, hidden line removal, 3d graphics...
> >>>
> >>> Any pointers?
> >>>
> >>> View month ago or longer, somebody on this list recovered some large
> >>> package of FORTRAN code, and wanted to invest it, but I think it was
> >>> posted
> >>> under a wrong subject, so I can't find it anymore ...
> >>>
> >>> THANKS!
> >
> >
>
>

-- 
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 14:34:18 2020
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 15:34:18 -0400
Subject: DEC OS/8 Question (getting an error TOO BIG INIT)
Message-ID: <CABGJBudKrCPoXNUzn1fYTpAdPg2dcuQ9Na6X=1QsfKb_CUEdnA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
I am sure this question has come up before, but can anyone advise an OS/8
change I can run to avoid the following issue (below)?  I am unsure if I
need to fix my simh INI file or make more space for the program from the
OS/8 dot prompt, or FORTRAN * prompt.

Running pidp-8i (simh PDP 8i kit)

I load OS/8 and initiate the command from the dot prompt:

. FRTS

..dumps me to the * prompt ...

*RKB0:ADVENT.LD  [return]
*   [esc]

rather than loading ADVENTURE I get the following result:

D.F. TOO BIG INIT  0000
MAIN 1740
.

(..andkicks me back to the dot prompt).

the INI is the default

reset
set cpu 32k
set cpu noidle
att rk0 ../imagefiles/os8/advent.rk05
boot rk0

what changes are needed?  I searched around, I don't quite understand how
to load an LD file in OS/8 to debug the error.  It may be I have the wrong
RK05 disk, but I'd really like to understand what this error means if
anyone knows.  My physical RK05 disk loads ADVENT as an SV file, I don't
need the extra steps.

Thanks

BIll

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 15:54:35 2020
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 14:54:35 -0600
Subject: DEC OS/8 Question (getting an error TOO BIG INIT)
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudKrCPoXNUzn1fYTpAdPg2dcuQ9Na6X=1QsfKb_CUEdnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBudKrCPoXNUzn1fYTpAdPg2dcuQ9Na6X=1QsfKb_CUEdnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTT-4jtnt+AdaZEis9m+C9ubY+tq7gvJL6q3Gs-7j-3dMQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 1:34 PM Bill Degnan via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> D.F. TOO BIG INIT  0000
> I'd really like to understand what this error means if
> anyone knows.
>

That stands for "data field too big", i.e., too much data to fit in 4KW.
That's as opposed to "instruction field", which if too big would mean that
there's too much code.
Although I used OS/8 Fortran in the distant past, I never tried to compile
large Fortran programs or programs that used much data, so I don't know
what it takes to solve that problem. Maybe there is some way to get Fortran
to use more than one 4KW field for data, issuing the necessary CDF
instructions to switch data fields?

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 15:58:27 2020
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 14:58:27 -0600
Subject: DEC OS/8 Question (getting an error TOO BIG INIT)
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTT-4jtnt+AdaZEis9m+C9ubY+tq7gvJL6q3Gs-7j-3dMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBudKrCPoXNUzn1fYTpAdPg2dcuQ9Na6X=1QsfKb_CUEdnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT-4jtnt+AdaZEis9m+C9ubY+tq7gvJL6q3Gs-7j-3dMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTeggWfbG-7RpyDc71_mPs9pp4VdFAEgZrgCPdzLT6-gQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 2:54 PM Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:

> That stands for "data field too big", i.e., too much data to fit in 4KW.
> That's as opposed to "instruction field", which if too big would mean that
> there's too much code.
> Although I used OS/8 Fortran in the distant past, I never tried to compile
> large Fortran programs or programs that used much data, so I don't know
> what it takes to solve that problem. Maybe there is some way to get Fortran
> to use more than one 4KW field for data, issuing the necessary CDF
> instructions to switch data fields?
>

Checking the OS/8 Language Reference Manual reveals that I was totally
incorrect.
That stands for Data File too big.
"Product fo number of record times number of blocks per record exceeds
number of blocks in file."
So I have no idea how to fix that.

From v.slyngstad at frontier.com  Wed Apr  8 18:15:16 2020
From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 16:15:16 -0700
Subject: DEC OS/8 Question (getting an error TOO BIG INIT)
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudKrCPoXNUzn1fYTpAdPg2dcuQ9Na6X=1QsfKb_CUEdnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBudKrCPoXNUzn1fYTpAdPg2dcuQ9Na6X=1QsfKb_CUEdnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <277c3f78-dc52-4370-8fa7-bd3dd82f86f7@frontier.com>

On 4/8/2020 12:34 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> . FRTS
> 
> ..dumps me to the * prompt ...
> 
> *RKB0:ADVENT.LD  [return]
> *   [esc]
> 
> rather than loading ADVENTURE I get the following result:
> 
> D.F. TOO BIG INIT  0000
> MAIN 1740
> .

Have you seen this?
https://tangentsoft.com/pidp8i/artifact/48a782b6930cb809

Vince


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 19:10:39 2020
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 20:10:39 -0400
Subject: DEC OS/8 Question (getting an error TOO BIG INIT)
In-Reply-To: <277c3f78-dc52-4370-8fa7-bd3dd82f86f7@frontier.com>
References: <CABGJBudKrCPoXNUzn1fYTpAdPg2dcuQ9Na6X=1QsfKb_CUEdnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <277c3f78-dc52-4370-8fa7-bd3dd82f86f7@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuccEv6YaYr5=dLAJE+FKXZKoV05hiQiMZxm7a8pBXQ61w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 7:15 PM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 4/8/2020 12:34 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> > . FRTS
> >
> > ..dumps me to the * prompt ...
> >
> > *RKB0:ADVENT.LD  [return]
> > *   [esc]
> >
> > rather than loading ADVENTURE I get the following result:
> >
> > D.F. TOO BIG INIT  0000
> > MAIN 1740
> > .
>
> Have you seen this?
> https://tangentsoft.com/pidp8i/artifact/48a782b6930cb809
>
> Vinc
>

Thank you.  As said recently I have the SV file making this perhaps moot,
but I better understand the strategy to support pdp os/8 fortran

Bill

>

From jdbryan at acm.org  Wed Apr  8 22:47:28 2020
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 23:47:28 -0400
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <247be7d2c88562e1617c306a3d1c8f98@yahoo.com>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>,
 <E1jM3EP-0005VP-KT@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <247be7d2c88562e1617c306a3d1c8f98@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1jMO9v-0001Ax-My@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 13:42, David Williams via cctalk wrote:

> I have some old tapes from my Honeywell 66/60 GCOS days that I
> sometimes wonder if I could still get dumped. 

A number of folks have 800 NRZI/1600 PE/6250 GCR 1.2-inch tape drives 
connected to PCs via SCSI interfaces that can be used to copy physical 
tapes to SIMH tape images.  You might ask on this list to see if someone in 
your area can accommodate you.


> Ah SNOBOL... I discovered that language shortly before graduating HS
> and always wanted to play around with it but never had an instillation
> where I could. 

The HP Orsay (not Grenoble, as I misremembered) implementation is the only 
SNOBOL3 implementation I've used.  There's a free SNOBOL4 implementation 
here for various PC operating systems:

  https://github.com/spitbol/

Actually, it's a SPITBOL implementation, which is a compiled version of 
SNOBOL4; see:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPITBOL

I've used the Windows NT version for years; it's still my preferred 
language for string manipulation.  Note that SNOBOL3 and SNOBOL4 are 
different syntactically, though learning one certainly would aid in 
learning the other.


> ALGOL as well. Thanks for the suggestions, I'll check some of that out
> too.

If you're not necessarily wedded to the HP 21xx/1000 architecture, the HP 
3000 simulator and its associated MPE operating system kit from the SIMH/HP 
site has a number of languages preinstalled:

  - BASIC (interpreter and compiler)
  - COBOL 68
  - COBOL 74/85
  - FORTRAN 66
  - Pascal
  - RPG
  - SPL

The latter is HP's proprietary Systems Programming Language, an ALGOL-like 
derivative used in lieu of assembler to implement MPE and most of the 
compilers and utilities.

                                      -- Dave


From mattislind at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 23:51:52 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 06:51:52 +0200
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <00ca01d60dec$21733690$6459a3b0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+EKPkjY8JCjKh2Oe5962WhiFw-D3nEWYbwO1Pa2rNf3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ca01d60dec$21733690$6459a3b0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82SKT8ZruwE+Us6o2mspDMu=pJ1QpFkYXawESUQJz+cJQkQ@mail.gmail.com>

onsdag 8 april 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>:

> I will look at all the suggestions, particularly of a failure on the
> secondary side. Something must have burned up, because there was a distinct
> burning smell after the initial failure, although I have never been able to
> see any physical damage to anything, despite looking many times.
>
>
Aha. Don?t think I seen you writing about that before, or did you? It might
be very hard to find the source some times. Even just a small burn will
give quite some smell. Check ALL semiconductors very carefully.

>
>
> But the thing that really puzzles me is that, after correcting the probes
> to include the D19 anode, there doesn?t seem to be anything that would
> cause D19 to trigger. Am I reading the trace wrong?
>
>
It is very hard to tell from the traces what is going on since the
resolution is too low.  Use a faster timebase. 5 or 10 microseconds. Find
out if you can trigger on something that happen only when it stops. Like
channel 2 negative slope.

/Mattis

>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> *From:* Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 08 April 2020 07:42
> *To:* rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>;
> General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> *Subject:* Re: VAXmate PSU
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Den ons 8 apr. 2020 kl 00:34 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>:
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert
> via
> > cctalk
> > Sent: 06 April 2020 21:07
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU
> >
> > On 2020-Apr-05, at 11:12 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I have obtained a scope trace as you suggest. R32 is still lifted so
> > >>> the
> > >>> UC3842 is powered by the bench PSU, but I am using the full 240VAC
> > >>> (no variac). The channels are:
> > >>> 1.        Ch1. 555 timer.
> > >>> 2.        Ch2. D19 Anode
> > >>> 3.        Ch3. D19 Gate.
> > >>> 4.        Ch4. Q1 Source.
> > >
> > > Sorry, that looks like a cut and paste error, here is the link to the
> > > scope picture
> > > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-primary-scr-trigger
> > > .png
> > >
> > > I used a 100ms timebase for the capture and then "zoomed in" a bit
> >
> >
> > You would need to zoom in far more to see what's going on when the SCR
> > triggers, to cover just a few cycles around the trigger time.
> >
> > Once an SCR has been triggerred, the gate becomes a voltage/current
> supply, a
> > diode drop above 0.
> > You see this on your trace in that after triggerring the gate sits at
> something +V
> > above 0.
> > The spike you see may just be an artifact of the internal SCR trigger
> action.
> > I presume you see some increased current draw from your bench supply for
> the
> > 3842 after the SCR triggers.
> >
> > What's up with channel 2? Above you say it's D19 anode which is 3842 Vcc
> but
> > it shows on the trace as just noise around 0V.
> >
> > I would still suggest that you scope the state of the secondary-side
> crowbar -
> > the gate of Q2, and base of Q4.
> > Should be simple to do, before trying to remove or disconnect the main
> > transformer.
>
> Oh dear! After Brent's question about D19 anode, I realise that the probe
> was connected to the cathode! I have now done it again with the probe
> connected to the anode. I have taken two images of the same capture, one at
> low resolution to show the overall behaviour
>
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-1.png
>
> And one zoomed in to show what happens when the SCR shuts down.
>
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-
> shutdown-detail-2.
> png
>
> The channels are the same as before, namely:
> Ch1. 555 timer.
> Ch2. D19 Anode (now corrected as it was previously the cathode!)
> Ch3. D19 Gate.
> Ch4. Q1 Source.
>
> I got an earlier trace which showed the D19 anode at 9V, which is under the
> Undervoltage Lockout threshold, but I have not been able to repeat it.
>
> I don't fully understand the debate about using the variac.
>
>
>
> I am not going to debate this either since I know what I have been doing
> for years and it works perfectly well for me. I have fixed the bigger PSUs
> in a VAX 11/750 (one broken switch transistor and multiple broken output
> rectifiers). PSU in NORD-10/S (most carbon composition resistors had gone
> out of spec). PSUs in many smaller machines as well.
>
>
>
> I prefer to work in circuits where I can fiddle around without the danger
> of getting killed all the time. Regardless of use of HV differential probe
> it can be dangerous. Running it on 50VAC with a protection transformer do
> expose a lot of problems already and you can poke around safely in the PSU.
>
> I have not yet seen a problem that wasn't seen at low voltage, but I
> expect there could be semiconductors that experience breakdown that occur
> at lower than specified voltage.
>
>
>
>
>
> However, my
> measurements appear to suggest that when I use the variac the SCR triggers
> because of what appears to be a genuine overcurrent detected by R13. I
> think
> this is because the duty cycle at low AC input voltages is 50% (rather than
> about 10% or less as per the trace I have just taken), and I measured 2V
> across R13, which does seem to be enough to trigger the SCR. When I use
> 220VAC, the voltage across R13 does rise to 6V, which should also trigger
> the SCR I think, except that the peak last a lot less and so perhaps the
> fact that the 6V last for a brief period is insufficient to trigger it?
>
>
>
>
>
> On the issue of duty cycle. If we look at this from the start up
> perspective rather than the steady state perspective. At startup there are
> no stored energy in the output filter capacitors. The voltage on the output
> is thus 0. As soon as the PSU is doing its first switching pulse energy is
> transfered as the main switch transistor is cutting off. The energy is
> transfered into the capacitor and into the load. The voltage is starting to
> increase.
>
>
>
> The duty cycle generated by the PWM circuitry is in pure relation to the
> voltage error, i.e. the difference between output voltage and reference
> voltage. In essence it is a P-regulator.
>
>
>
> When there are 0 Volt out the duty cycle will be at the maximum. Nothing
> strange about that. But what is maximum duty cycle? It depends on the
> circuitry used. The UC3842 can do up to almost 100% duty cycle. However it
> may be wise to limit duty cycle in a flyback design so that the transformer
> is not saturated. I am not sure if there is some kind of duty cycle
> limitation in this circuit though.
>
>
>
> So if it can handle 50% duty cycle at startup it should be able to handle
> it at any time. Besides it would be incredible weird to design a circuit to
> use a 10% duty cycle at its standard operating point and detecting over
> current at 50%. Then you have much less head room for load and input
> variations.
>
>
>
> I am more or less convinced that what you see on the primary side is a
> result of some kind of fault on the secondary side.
>
> A very common problem is short-circuit rectifier diodes on the secondary
> side (D12, D11, D21, D22, D23, D24). They can be difficult to measure
> correctly in circuit since the resistance of the secondaries of the
> transformer is so low. Depending on type you can either desolder them
> completely or just lift one end of them.
>
>
>
> My experience is that electrolytic capacitors seldom short circuit. They
> probably boil and explode instead. Tantalum capacitors often short circuit.
> Some of them goes into fire other just stay short circuit. So check for
> tantalum capacitors and try to measure them for short circuit.
>
>
>
> You have a crowbar on the secondary side. Are you sure that one hasn't
> triggered? If you still run on variac you can disable the crowbar circuit
> by removing the SCR and ramp up the voltage slowly to see if that makes any
> difference.
>
>
>
> Breaking the feed back loop:
>
>
>
> R23 seems to be in the feedback path. If you lift it and insert a voltage
> from a lab supply here you could simulate the output voltage and study the
> behaviour of the UC3842 for different feed back voltages. You will see that
> it will stay on max duty cycle up until close to the nominal voltage and
> over a very small span change to almost no pulse out at all. This is due to
> the gain of the circuit.
>
>
>
> /Mattis
>
>
>
>
> I have seen the suggestions to study the waveforms at a much higher
> resolution. What I am doing is setting the overall timebase in the 100ms
> range so that I can trigger on when the 555 starts to oscillate and capture
> the whole period of operation until the SCR triggers. I can then zoom in,
> as
> can be seen from the trace provided in this email. I hope that is good
> enough, or am I missing some problem with doing it this way?
>
> I would like to follow Mattis's suggestions (and other people have said it
> too) to break the feedback loop, but it does look difficult to know how
> best
> to do it.
>
> I also understand Brent's suggestion that the gate spike is just the result
> of the SCR triggering, rather then the cause of the trigger. I had wondered
> if that might be the case.
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
>

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Thu Apr  9 01:30:37 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 07:30:37 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SKT8ZruwE+Us6o2mspDMu=pJ1QpFkYXawESUQJz+cJQkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+EKPkjY8JCjKh2Oe5962WhiFw-D3nEWYbwO1Pa2rNf3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ca01d60dec$21733690$6459a3b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SKT8ZruwE+Us6o2mspDMu=pJ1QpFkYXawESUQJz+cJQkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010901d60e38$62110b90$263322b0$@ntlworld.com>

I did use a faster timebase, 10us, triggering on the negative edge of channel 2, and it looked identical to this:

 

https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-detail-2.png

 

Admittedly the trace you see was taken on the slower timebase and then zoomed in, but there was no difference, the result was identical.

 

Regards

 

Rob

 

From: Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com> 
Sent: 09 April 2020 05:52
To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
Subject: VAXmate PSU

 



onsdag 8 april 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com <mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> >:

I will look at all the suggestions, particularly of a failure on the secondary side. Something must have burned up, because there was a distinct burning smell after the initial failure, although I have never been able to see any physical damage to anything, despite looking many times.

 

Aha. Don?t think I seen you writing about that before, or did you? It might be very hard to find the source some times. Even just a small burn will give quite some smell. Check ALL semiconductors very carefully.  

 

But the thing that really puzzles me is that, after correcting the probes to include the D19 anode, there doesn?t seem to be anything that would cause D19 to trigger. Am I reading the trace wrong?

 

It is very hard to tell from the traces what is going on since the resolution is too low.  Use a faster timebase. 5 or 10 microseconds. Find out if you can trigger on something that happen only when it stops. Like channel 2 negative slope. 

 

/Mattis

 

Thanks

 

Rob

 

From: Mattis Lind < <mailto:mattislind at gmail.com> mattislind at gmail.com> 
Sent: 08 April 2020 07:42
To:  <mailto:rob at jarratt.me.uk> rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt < <mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU

 

 

 

Den ons 8 apr. 2020 kl 00:34 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >:



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> > On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert
via
> cctalk
> Sent: 06 April 2020 21:07
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >
> Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU
> 
> On 2020-Apr-05, at 11:12 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have obtained a scope trace as you suggest. R32 is still lifted so
> >>> the
> >>> UC3842 is powered by the bench PSU, but I am using the full 240VAC
> >>> (no variac). The channels are:
> >>> 1.        Ch1. 555 timer.
> >>> 2.        Ch2. D19 Anode
> >>> 3.        Ch3. D19 Gate.
> >>> 4.        Ch4. Q1 Source.
> >
> > Sorry, that looks like a cut and paste error, here is the link to the
> > scope picture
> > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-primary-scr-trigger
> > .png
> >
> > I used a 100ms timebase for the capture and then "zoomed in" a bit
> 
> 
> You would need to zoom in far more to see what's going on when the SCR
> triggers, to cover just a few cycles around the trigger time.
> 
> Once an SCR has been triggerred, the gate becomes a voltage/current
supply, a
> diode drop above 0.
> You see this on your trace in that after triggerring the gate sits at
something +V
> above 0.
> The spike you see may just be an artifact of the internal SCR trigger
action.
> I presume you see some increased current draw from your bench supply for
the
> 3842 after the SCR triggers.
> 
> What's up with channel 2? Above you say it's D19 anode which is 3842 Vcc
but
> it shows on the trace as just noise around 0V.
> 
> I would still suggest that you scope the state of the secondary-side
crowbar -
> the gate of Q2, and base of Q4.
> Should be simple to do, before trying to remove or disconnect the main
> transformer.

Oh dear! After Brent's question about D19 anode, I realise that the probe
was connected to the cathode! I have now done it again with the probe
connected to the anode. I have taken two images of the same capture, one at
low resolution to show the overall behaviour

https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-1.png

And one zoomed in to show what happens when the SCR shuts down.

https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-detail-2. <https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-detail-2.png> 
png

The channels are the same as before, namely:
Ch1. 555 timer.
Ch2. D19 Anode (now corrected as it was previously the cathode!)
Ch3. D19 Gate.
Ch4. Q1 Source.

I got an earlier trace which showed the D19 anode at 9V, which is under the
Undervoltage Lockout threshold, but I have not been able to repeat it.

I don't fully understand the debate about using the variac. 

 

I am not going to debate this either since I know what I have been doing for years and it works perfectly well for me. I have fixed the bigger PSUs in a VAX 11/750 (one broken switch transistor and multiple broken output rectifiers). PSU in NORD-10/S (most carbon composition resistors had gone out of spec). PSUs in many smaller machines as well.

 

I prefer to work in circuits where I can fiddle around without the danger of getting killed all the time. Regardless of use of HV differential probe it can be dangerous. Running it on 50VAC with a protection transformer do expose a lot of problems already and you can poke around safely in the PSU.

I have not yet seen a problem that wasn't seen at low voltage, but I expect there could be semiconductors that experience breakdown that occur at lower than specified voltage.

 

 

However, my
measurements appear to suggest that when I use the variac the SCR triggers
because of what appears to be a genuine overcurrent detected by R13. I think
this is because the duty cycle at low AC input voltages is 50% (rather than
about 10% or less as per the trace I have just taken), and I measured 2V
across R13, which does seem to be enough to trigger the SCR. When I use
220VAC, the voltage across R13 does rise to 6V, which should also trigger
the SCR I think, except that the peak last a lot less and so perhaps the
fact that the 6V last for a brief period is insufficient to trigger it?

 

 

On the issue of duty cycle. If we look at this from the start up perspective rather than the steady state perspective. At startup there are no stored energy in the output filter capacitors. The voltage on the output is thus 0. As soon as the PSU is doing its first switching pulse energy is transfered as the main switch transistor is cutting off. The energy is transfered into the capacitor and into the load. The voltage is starting to increase.

 

The duty cycle generated by the PWM circuitry is in pure relation to the voltage error, i.e. the difference between output voltage and reference voltage. In essence it is a P-regulator. 

 

When there are 0 Volt out the duty cycle will be at the maximum. Nothing strange about that. But what is maximum duty cycle? It depends on the circuitry used. The UC3842 can do up to almost 100% duty cycle. However it may be wise to limit duty cycle in a flyback design so that the transformer is not saturated. I am not sure if there is some kind of duty cycle limitation in this circuit though.

 

So if it can handle 50% duty cycle at startup it should be able to handle it at any time. Besides it would be incredible weird to design a circuit to use a 10% duty cycle at its standard operating point and detecting over current at 50%. Then you have much less head room for load and input variations.

 

I am more or less convinced that what you see on the primary side is a result of some kind of fault on the secondary side. 

A very common problem is short-circuit rectifier diodes on the secondary side (D12, D11, D21, D22, D23, D24). They can be difficult to measure correctly in circuit since the resistance of the secondaries of the transformer is so low. Depending on type you can either desolder them completely or just lift one end of them.

 

My experience is that electrolytic capacitors seldom short circuit. They probably boil and explode instead. Tantalum capacitors often short circuit. Some of them goes into fire other just stay short circuit. So check for tantalum capacitors and try to measure them for short circuit.

 

You have a crowbar on the secondary side. Are you sure that one hasn't triggered? If you still run on variac you can disable the crowbar circuit by removing the SCR and ramp up the voltage slowly to see if that makes any difference. 

 

Breaking the feed back loop:

 

R23 seems to be in the feedback path. If you lift it and insert a voltage from a lab supply here you could simulate the output voltage and study the behaviour of the UC3842 for different feed back voltages. You will see that it will stay on max duty cycle up until close to the nominal voltage and over a very small span change to almost no pulse out at all. This is due to the gain of the circuit.

 

/Mattis

  


I have seen the suggestions to study the waveforms at a much higher
resolution. What I am doing is setting the overall timebase in the 100ms
range so that I can trigger on when the 555 starts to oscillate and capture
the whole period of operation until the SCR triggers. I can then zoom in, as
can be seen from the trace provided in this email. I hope that is good
enough, or am I missing some problem with doing it this way?

I would like to follow Mattis's suggestions (and other people have said it
too) to break the feedback loop, but it does look difficult to know how best
to do it.

I also understand Brent's suggestion that the gate spike is just the result
of the SCR triggering, rather then the cause of the trigger. I had wondered
if that might be the case.

Regards

Rob


From rshepprd at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 17:58:54 2020
From: rshepprd at gmail.com (Richard Sheppard)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 18:58:54 -0400
Subject: DEC OS/8 Question (getting an error TOO BIG INIT)
Message-ID: <5e8e572e.1c69fb81.33483.2baf@mx.google.com>


I?m just going to guess (I have no experience with this architecture) ? would that mean either file corruption ? or possibly the last record needs to be padded out with ?empty? blocks to be the same size as the others?



From mattislind at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 02:46:48 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 09:46:48 +0200
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <010901d60e38$62110b90$263322b0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+EKPkjY8JCjKh2Oe5962WhiFw-D3nEWYbwO1Pa2rNf3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ca01d60dec$21733690$6459a3b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SKT8ZruwE+Us6o2mspDMu=pJ1QpFkYXawESUQJz+cJQkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <010901d60e38$62110b90$263322b0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82SLjsdp5srx2eJzOUFNtnQ3xO-xpt1Mn6ZWJLuQaSwczew@mail.gmail.com>

torsdag 9 april 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>:

> I did use a faster timebase, 10us, triggering on the negative edge of
> channel 2, and it looked identical to this:
>
>
>
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-
> shutdown-detail-2.png
>

I thought the switching frequency was in the range of 50 kHz. But it might
be higher. What would be interesting is to see the last two switch cycles
in detail. What is the switching frequency?

>
>
> Admittedly the trace you see was taken on the slower timebase and then
> zoomed in, but there was no difference, the result was identical.
>
>
You can loose detail since the sampling rate is a function of sweep
frequency/ time base setting.

>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> *From:* Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 09 April 2020 05:52
> *To:* rob at jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
> *Subject:* VAXmate PSU
>
>
>
>
>
> onsdag 8 april 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>:
>
> I will look at all the suggestions, particularly of a failure on the
> secondary side. Something must have burned up, because there was a distinct
> burning smell after the initial failure, although I have never been able to
> see any physical damage to anything, despite looking many times.
>
>
>
> Aha. Don?t think I seen you writing about that before, or did you? It
> might be very hard to find the source some times. Even just a small burn
> will give quite some smell. Check ALL semiconductors very carefully.
>
>
>
> But the thing that really puzzles me is that, after correcting the probes
> to include the D19 anode, there doesn?t seem to be anything that would
> cause D19 to trigger. Am I reading the trace wrong?
>
>
>
> It is very hard to tell from the traces what is going on since the
> resolution is too low.  Use a faster timebase. 5 or 10 microseconds. Find
> out if you can trigger on something that happen only when it stops. Like
> channel 2 negative slope.
>
>
>
> /Mattis
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> *From:* Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 08 April 2020 07:42
> *To:* rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>;
> General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> *Subject:* Re: VAXmate PSU
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Den ons 8 apr. 2020 kl 00:34 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>:
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert
> via
> > cctalk
> > Sent: 06 April 2020 21:07
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU
> >
> > On 2020-Apr-05, at 11:12 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I have obtained a scope trace as you suggest. R32 is still lifted so
> > >>> the
> > >>> UC3842 is powered by the bench PSU, but I am using the full 240VAC
> > >>> (no variac). The channels are:
> > >>> 1.        Ch1. 555 timer.
> > >>> 2.        Ch2. D19 Anode
> > >>> 3.        Ch3. D19 Gate.
> > >>> 4.        Ch4. Q1 Source.
> > >
> > > Sorry, that looks like a cut and paste error, here is the link to the
> > > scope picture
> > > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-primary-scr-trigger
> > > .png
> > >
> > > I used a 100ms timebase for the capture and then "zoomed in" a bit
> >
> >
> > You would need to zoom in far more to see what's going on when the SCR
> > triggers, to cover just a few cycles around the trigger time.
> >
> > Once an SCR has been triggerred, the gate becomes a voltage/current
> supply, a
> > diode drop above 0.
> > You see this on your trace in that after triggerring the gate sits at
> something +V
> > above 0.
> > The spike you see may just be an artifact of the internal SCR trigger
> action.
> > I presume you see some increased current draw from your bench supply for
> the
> > 3842 after the SCR triggers.
> >
> > What's up with channel 2? Above you say it's D19 anode which is 3842 Vcc
> but
> > it shows on the trace as just noise around 0V.
> >
> > I would still suggest that you scope the state of the secondary-side
> crowbar -
> > the gate of Q2, and base of Q4.
> > Should be simple to do, before trying to remove or disconnect the main
> > transformer.
>
> Oh dear! After Brent's question about D19 anode, I realise that the probe
> was connected to the cathode! I have now done it again with the probe
> connected to the anode. I have taken two images of the same capture, one at
> low resolution to show the overall behaviour
>
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-1.png
>
> And one zoomed in to show what happens when the SCR shuts down.
>
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-
> shutdown-detail-2.
> png
>
> The channels are the same as before, namely:
> Ch1. 555 timer.
> Ch2. D19 Anode (now corrected as it was previously the cathode!)
> Ch3. D19 Gate.
> Ch4. Q1 Source.
>
> I got an earlier trace which showed the D19 anode at 9V, which is under the
> Undervoltage Lockout threshold, but I have not been able to repeat it.
>
> I don't fully understand the debate about using the variac.
>
>
>
> I am not going to debate this either since I know what I have been doing
> for years and it works perfectly well for me. I have fixed the bigger PSUs
> in a VAX 11/750 (one broken switch transistor and multiple broken output
> rectifiers). PSU in NORD-10/S (most carbon composition resistors had gone
> out of spec). PSUs in many smaller machines as well.
>
>
>
> I prefer to work in circuits where I can fiddle around without the danger
> of getting killed all the time. Regardless of use of HV differential probe
> it can be dangerous. Running it on 50VAC with a protection transformer do
> expose a lot of problems already and you can poke around safely in the PSU.
>
> I have not yet seen a problem that wasn't seen at low voltage, but I
> expect there could be semiconductors that experience breakdown that occur
> at lower than specified voltage.
>
>
>
>
>
> However, my
> measurements appear to suggest that when I use the variac the SCR triggers
> because of what appears to be a genuine overcurrent detected by R13. I
> think
> this is because the duty cycle at low AC input voltages is 50% (rather than
> about 10% or less as per the trace I have just taken), and I measured 2V
> across R13, which does seem to be enough to trigger the SCR. When I use
> 220VAC, the voltage across R13 does rise to 6V, which should also trigger
> the SCR I think, except that the peak last a lot less and so perhaps the
> fact that the 6V last for a brief period is insufficient to trigger it?
>
>
>
>
>
> On the issue of duty cycle. If we look at this from the start up
> perspective rather than the steady state perspective. At startup there are
> no stored energy in the output filter capacitors. The voltage on the output
> is thus 0. As soon as the PSU is doing its first switching pulse energy is
> transfered as the main switch transistor is cutting off. The energy is
> transfered into the capacitor and into the load. The voltage is starting to
> increase.
>
>
>
> The duty cycle generated by the PWM circuitry is in pure relation to the
> voltage error, i.e. the difference between output voltage and reference
> voltage. In essence it is a P-regulator.
>
>
>
> When there are 0 Volt out the duty cycle will be at the maximum. Nothing
> strange about that. But what is maximum duty cycle? It depends on the
> circuitry used. The UC3842 can do up to almost 100% duty cycle. However it
> may be wise to limit duty cycle in a flyback design so that the transformer
> is not saturated. I am not sure if there is some kind of duty cycle
> limitation in this circuit though.
>
>
>
> So if it can handle 50% duty cycle at startup it should be able to handle
> it at any time. Besides it would be incredible weird to design a circuit to
> use a 10% duty cycle at its standard operating point and detecting over
> current at 50%. Then you have much less head room for load and input
> variations.
>
>
>
> I am more or less convinced that what you see on the primary side is a
> result of some kind of fault on the secondary side.
>
> A very common problem is short-circuit rectifier diodes on the secondary
> side (D12, D11, D21, D22, D23, D24). They can be difficult to measure
> correctly in circuit since the resistance of the secondaries of the
> transformer is so low. Depending on type you can either desolder them
> completely or just lift one end of them.
>
>
>
> My experience is that electrolytic capacitors seldom short circuit. They
> probably boil and explode instead. Tantalum capacitors often short circuit.
> Some of them goes into fire other just stay short circuit. So check for
> tantalum capacitors and try to measure them for short circuit.
>
>
>
> You have a crowbar on the secondary side. Are you sure that one hasn't
> triggered? If you still run on variac you can disable the crowbar circuit
> by removing the SCR and ramp up the voltage slowly to see if that makes any
> difference.
>
>
>
> Breaking the feed back loop:
>
>
>
> R23 seems to be in the feedback path. If you lift it and insert a voltage
> from a lab supply here you could simulate the output voltage and study the
> behaviour of the UC3842 for different feed back voltages. You will see that
> it will stay on max duty cycle up until close to the nominal voltage and
> over a very small span change to almost no pulse out at all. This is due to
> the gain of the circuit.
>
>
>
> /Mattis
>
>
>
>
> I have seen the suggestions to study the waveforms at a much higher
> resolution. What I am doing is setting the overall timebase in the 100ms
> range so that I can trigger on when the 555 starts to oscillate and capture
> the whole period of operation until the SCR triggers. I can then zoom in,
> as
> can be seen from the trace provided in this email. I hope that is good
> enough, or am I missing some problem with doing it this way?
>
> I would like to follow Mattis's suggestions (and other people have said it
> too) to break the feedback loop, but it does look difficult to know how
> best
> to do it.
>
> I also understand Brent's suggestion that the gate spike is just the result
> of the SCR triggering, rather then the cause of the trigger. I had wondered
> if that might be the case.
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
>

From steven at malikoff.com  Thu Apr  9 02:56:38 2020
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 17:56:38 +1000
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004081431560.24811@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20200407130415.BE0E618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <65638DAA-AADF-4D17-B4F1-162FBEC9379A@btinternet.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004081431560.24811@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <bd52dffa4b90c77045979e29cf944299.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Right said Fred:
> MOST of the other PDP machines use the XX2247 key, which is a tubular one.
> But, THIS thread is about the weird one that is NOT tubular.

Here is my locksmith-cut 11/05 key attached to my pdp11 keyfob:
    https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3110483

Steve.



From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Thu Apr  9 03:02:11 2020
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 10:02:11 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.2004090958470.27967@linuxserv.home>

On Tue, 7 Apr 2020, jos wrote:
> ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/ICL1501
>
> There is the manual for the early 70?s COBOL implementation for the ICL1501, 
> a small 8K or 16K TTL based personal computer ( TTL based CPU, with 2x 74181 
> ALU and a 32x8 CRT display)

I'm sure you already know this :-)
ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/cogar/

I'll happily add your scans to this folder.

Christian

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Thu Apr  9 03:14:02 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 09:14:02 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SLjsdp5srx2eJzOUFNtnQ3xO-xpt1Mn6ZWJLuQaSwczew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+EKPkjY8JCjKh2Oe5962WhiFw-D3nEWYbwO1Pa2rNf3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ca01d60dec$21733690$6459a3b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SKT8ZruwE+Us6o2mspDMu=pJ1QpFkYXawESUQJz+cJQkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <010901d60e38$62110b90$263322b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SLjsdp5srx2eJzOUFNtnQ3xO-xpt1Mn6ZWJLuQaSwczew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011201d60e46$d449e340$7cdda9c0$@ntlworld.com>

I will repeat it tonight (or tomorrow) with the faster timebase and get the last two cycles. The switching frequency is 100KHz.

 

Thanks

 

Rob

 

From: Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com> 
Sent: 09 April 2020 08:47
To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: VAXmate PSU

 



torsdag 9 april 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com <mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> >:

I did use a faster timebase, 10us, triggering on the negative edge of channel 2, and it looked identical to this:

 

https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-detail-2.png

 

I thought the switching frequency was in the range of 50 kHz. But it might be higher. What would be interesting is to see the last two switch cycles in detail. What is the switching frequency?

 

Admittedly the trace you see was taken on the slower timebase and then zoomed in, but there was no difference, the result was identical.

 

You can loose detail since the sampling rate is a function of sweep frequency/ time base setting.  

 

Regards

 

Rob

 

From: Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com <mailto:mattislind at gmail.com> > 
Sent: 09 April 2020 05:52
To: rob at jarratt.me.uk <mailto:rob at jarratt.me.uk> ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com <mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> >
Subject: VAXmate PSU

 



onsdag 8 april 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com <mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> >:

I will look at all the suggestions, particularly of a failure on the secondary side. Something must have burned up, because there was a distinct burning smell after the initial failure, although I have never been able to see any physical damage to anything, despite looking many times.

 

Aha. Don?t think I seen you writing about that before, or did you? It might be very hard to find the source some times. Even just a small burn will give quite some smell. Check ALL semiconductors very carefully.  

 

But the thing that really puzzles me is that, after correcting the probes to include the D19 anode, there doesn?t seem to be anything that would cause D19 to trigger. Am I reading the trace wrong?

 

It is very hard to tell from the traces what is going on since the resolution is too low.  Use a faster timebase. 5 or 10 microseconds. Find out if you can trigger on something that happen only when it stops. Like channel 2 negative slope. 

 

/Mattis

 

Thanks

 

Rob

 

From: Mattis Lind < <mailto:mattislind at gmail.com> mattislind at gmail.com> 
Sent: 08 April 2020 07:42
To:  <mailto:rob at jarratt.me.uk> rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt < <mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU

 

 

 

Den ons 8 apr. 2020 kl 00:34 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >:



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> > On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert
via
> cctalk
> Sent: 06 April 2020 21:07
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >
> Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU
> 
> On 2020-Apr-05, at 11:12 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have obtained a scope trace as you suggest. R32 is still lifted so
> >>> the
> >>> UC3842 is powered by the bench PSU, but I am using the full 240VAC
> >>> (no variac). The channels are:
> >>> 1.        Ch1. 555 timer.
> >>> 2.        Ch2. D19 Anode
> >>> 3.        Ch3. D19 Gate.
> >>> 4.        Ch4. Q1 Source.
> >
> > Sorry, that looks like a cut and paste error, here is the link to the
> > scope picture
> > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-primary-scr-trigger
> > .png
> >
> > I used a 100ms timebase for the capture and then "zoomed in" a bit
> 
> 
> You would need to zoom in far more to see what's going on when the SCR
> triggers, to cover just a few cycles around the trigger time.
> 
> Once an SCR has been triggerred, the gate becomes a voltage/current
supply, a
> diode drop above 0.
> You see this on your trace in that after triggerring the gate sits at
something +V
> above 0.
> The spike you see may just be an artifact of the internal SCR trigger
action.
> I presume you see some increased current draw from your bench supply for
the
> 3842 after the SCR triggers.
> 
> What's up with channel 2? Above you say it's D19 anode which is 3842 Vcc
but
> it shows on the trace as just noise around 0V.
> 
> I would still suggest that you scope the state of the secondary-side
crowbar -
> the gate of Q2, and base of Q4.
> Should be simple to do, before trying to remove or disconnect the main
> transformer.

Oh dear! After Brent's question about D19 anode, I realise that the probe
was connected to the cathode! I have now done it again with the probe
connected to the anode. I have taken two images of the same capture, one at
low resolution to show the overall behaviour

https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-1.png

And one zoomed in to show what happens when the SCR shuts down.

https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-detail-2. <https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-detail-2.png> 
png

The channels are the same as before, namely:
Ch1. 555 timer.
Ch2. D19 Anode (now corrected as it was previously the cathode!)
Ch3. D19 Gate.
Ch4. Q1 Source.

I got an earlier trace which showed the D19 anode at 9V, which is under the
Undervoltage Lockout threshold, but I have not been able to repeat it.

I don't fully understand the debate about using the variac. 

 

I am not going to debate this either since I know what I have been doing for years and it works perfectly well for me. I have fixed the bigger PSUs in a VAX 11/750 (one broken switch transistor and multiple broken output rectifiers). PSU in NORD-10/S (most carbon composition resistors had gone out of spec). PSUs in many smaller machines as well.

 

I prefer to work in circuits where I can fiddle around without the danger of getting killed all the time. Regardless of use of HV differential probe it can be dangerous. Running it on 50VAC with a protection transformer do expose a lot of problems already and you can poke around safely in the PSU.

I have not yet seen a problem that wasn't seen at low voltage, but I expect there could be semiconductors that experience breakdown that occur at lower than specified voltage.

 

 

However, my
measurements appear to suggest that when I use the variac the SCR triggers
because of what appears to be a genuine overcurrent detected by R13. I think
this is because the duty cycle at low AC input voltages is 50% (rather than
about 10% or less as per the trace I have just taken), and I measured 2V
across R13, which does seem to be enough to trigger the SCR. When I use
220VAC, the voltage across R13 does rise to 6V, which should also trigger
the SCR I think, except that the peak last a lot less and so perhaps the
fact that the 6V last for a brief period is insufficient to trigger it?

 

 

On the issue of duty cycle. If we look at this from the start up perspective rather than the steady state perspective. At startup there are no stored energy in the output filter capacitors. The voltage on the output is thus 0. As soon as the PSU is doing its first switching pulse energy is transfered as the main switch transistor is cutting off. The energy is transfered into the capacitor and into the load. The voltage is starting to increase.

 

The duty cycle generated by the PWM circuitry is in pure relation to the voltage error, i.e. the difference between output voltage and reference voltage. In essence it is a P-regulator. 

 

When there are 0 Volt out the duty cycle will be at the maximum. Nothing strange about that. But what is maximum duty cycle? It depends on the circuitry used. The UC3842 can do up to almost 100% duty cycle. However it may be wise to limit duty cycle in a flyback design so that the transformer is not saturated. I am not sure if there is some kind of duty cycle limitation in this circuit though.

 

So if it can handle 50% duty cycle at startup it should be able to handle it at any time. Besides it would be incredible weird to design a circuit to use a 10% duty cycle at its standard operating point and detecting over current at 50%. Then you have much less head room for load and input variations.

 

I am more or less convinced that what you see on the primary side is a result of some kind of fault on the secondary side. 

A very common problem is short-circuit rectifier diodes on the secondary side (D12, D11, D21, D22, D23, D24). They can be difficult to measure correctly in circuit since the resistance of the secondaries of the transformer is so low. Depending on type you can either desolder them completely or just lift one end of them.

 

My experience is that electrolytic capacitors seldom short circuit. They probably boil and explode instead. Tantalum capacitors often short circuit. Some of them goes into fire other just stay short circuit. So check for tantalum capacitors and try to measure them for short circuit.

 

You have a crowbar on the secondary side. Are you sure that one hasn't triggered? If you still run on variac you can disable the crowbar circuit by removing the SCR and ramp up the voltage slowly to see if that makes any difference. 

 

Breaking the feed back loop:

 

R23 seems to be in the feedback path. If you lift it and insert a voltage from a lab supply here you could simulate the output voltage and study the behaviour of the UC3842 for different feed back voltages. You will see that it will stay on max duty cycle up until close to the nominal voltage and over a very small span change to almost no pulse out at all. This is due to the gain of the circuit.

 

/Mattis

  


I have seen the suggestions to study the waveforms at a much higher
resolution. What I am doing is setting the overall timebase in the 100ms
range so that I can trigger on when the 555 starts to oscillate and capture
the whole period of operation until the SCR triggers. I can then zoom in, as
can be seen from the trace provided in this email. I hope that is good
enough, or am I missing some problem with doing it this way?

I would like to follow Mattis's suggestions (and other people have said it
too) to break the feedback loop, but it does look difficult to know how best
to do it.

I also understand Brent's suggestion that the gate spike is just the result
of the SCR triggering, rather then the cause of the trigger. I had wondered
if that might be the case.

Regards

Rob


From matt at 9track.net  Thu Apr  9 03:40:06 2020
From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 09:40:06 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <00ca01d60dec$21733690$6459a3b0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+EKPkjY8JCjKh2Oe5962WhiFw-D3nEWYbwO1Pa2rNf3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ca01d60dec$21733690$6459a3b0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <619cd7fe-c8a0-4420-179a-21665bef45ef@9track.net>

On 08/04/2020 22:24, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> I will look at all the suggestions, particularly of a failure on the secondary side. Something must have burned up, because there was a distinct burning smell after the initial failure, although I have never been able to see any physical damage to anything, despite looking many times.
>
>  
>
> But the thing that really puzzles me is that, after correcting the probes to include the D19 anode, there doesn?t seem to be anything that would cause D19 to trigger. Am I reading the trace wrong?
>

The only paths to ground for VCC are C12, E3 and D19. The fact that VCC
is stable for a period of time and then drops suddenly suggests it must
be D19. It looks like there could be a pulse on D19 gate but it is in
the order of 1-2 uS before VCC drops. There are more pulses prior to
that but I wonder if some of that is just induced noise?

It will be interesting to see what's happening on the secondary side,
particularly with Q2. I guess you have already checked the obvious
things like a short circuit on one of the outputs? Also worth checking
the rectifier diodes D11, D12, D22 and D23 (I think).

Matt

From tom at figureeightbrewing.com  Thu Apr  9 07:09:45 2020
From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 07:09:45 -0500
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <bd52dffa4b90c77045979e29cf944299.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <20200407130415.BE0E618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <65638DAA-AADF-4D17-B4F1-162FBEC9379A@btinternet.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004081431560.24811@shell.lmi.net>
 <bd52dffa4b90c77045979e29cf944299.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <471a719d-112c-ad63-d20e-154c960379a6@figureeightbrewing.com>

On 4/9/20 2:56 AM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:
> Right said Fred:
>> MOST of the other PDP machines use the XX2247 key, which is a tubular one.
>> But, THIS thread is about the weird one that is NOT tubular.
> Here is my locksmith-cut 11/05 key attached to my pdp11 keyfob:
>     https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3110483
>
> Steve.
>
>
The key fob is pretty cool!

--tom

From emu at e-bbes.com  Thu Apr  9 09:16:05 2020
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 10:16:05 -0400
Subject: Converting Documents
Message-ID: <22ae0fd1-9b88-15b5-9ada-7c79a11a7d63@e-bbes.com>

Hi All,
somebody scanned documents for me in .pdfs.
Looking into them, they are pages of jpgs embedded in .pdf ..
(100 pages resulting in 350MBytes ...)

Any easy way to convert them into some b/w .pdf file?
It is all text, no drawings ...

Pointers?

Thanks

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Apr  9 09:24:00 2020
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 10:24:00 -0400
Subject: Converting Documents
In-Reply-To: <22ae0fd1-9b88-15b5-9ada-7c79a11a7d63@e-bbes.com>
References: <22ae0fd1-9b88-15b5-9ada-7c79a11a7d63@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <7516F4F8-9E00-4B3A-9339-18AD5ADFA757@comcast.net>



> On Apr 9, 2020, at 10:16 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> somebody scanned documents for me in .pdfs.
> Looking into them, they are pages of jpgs embedded in .pdf ..
> (100 pages resulting in 350MBytes ...)
> 
> Any easy way to convert them into some b/w .pdf file?
> It is all text, no drawings ...
> 
> Pointers?
> 
> Thanks

A good source of information is Al Kossow's Bitsavers archive, the section where he describes the tools he uses.

It's very unfortunate your original scan files are JPG; those are the wrong format for text or line art -- JPG is ONLY for photographs and similar continuous tone images.  TIFF or PNG or B/W FAX formats are all superior, and often more compact.

If by "convert to b/w" you mean to b/w images, Al's tools will help.  If you mean extracting the actual text, that's a different matter, now you need an OCR tool.  There are good commercial OCR programs around.  No open source ones that I know of; I've seen one but it didn't work well enough to be worth the trouble.  OCR may be extremely effective or not at all depending on the quality of the material.  In really extreme cases you may have to type things in by hand; I've done that with 600 pages of blurry listings because there was a good reason to go to that effort.

	paul


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Apr  9 09:35:20 2020
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 10:35:20 -0400
Subject: Converting Documents
In-Reply-To: <22ae0fd1-9b88-15b5-9ada-7c79a11a7d63@e-bbes.com>
References: <22ae0fd1-9b88-15b5-9ada-7c79a11a7d63@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <9a102de4-4e68-cec5-53b2-dc073ea59b37@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2020-04-09 10:16 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote:
> Hi All,
> somebody scanned documents for me in .pdfs.
> Looking into them, they are pages of jpgs embedded in .pdf ..
> (100 pages resulting in 350MBytes ...)
> 
> Any easy way to convert them into some b/w .pdf file?
> It is all text, no drawings ...
> 
> Pointers?
> 
> Thanks
> 

Typically I extract using pdfimages

$ pdfimages
pdfimages version 4.00
Copyright 1996-2017 Glyph & Cog, LLC
Usage: pdfimages [options] <PDF-file> <image-root>

You can then use GraphicsMagick to threshold to bilevel (a suitable
threshold can be found by inspecting or histogramming the image e.g. in
Photoshop).

  gm mogrify -threshold XX% -monochrome

(or `gm convert` can convert each page to TIF for the next step)

Then I'd go via TIFF, combining and compressing all pages as G4
compression using `tiffcp -c g4`, then if you want a PDF instead of
multipage tiff, you can transcode to PDF with `tiff2pdf`.

tiffcp and tiff2pdf are libtiff utilities.

There might be a shortcut using different tools but those are the tools
I use.

--Toby



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Apr  9 12:22:43 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 10:22:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <471a719d-112c-ad63-d20e-154c960379a6@figureeightbrewing.com>
References: <20200407130415.BE0E618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <65638DAA-AADF-4D17-B4F1-162FBEC9379A@btinternet.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004081431560.24811@shell.lmi.net>
 <bd52dffa4b90c77045979e29cf944299.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <471a719d-112c-ad63-d20e-154c960379a6@figureeightbrewing.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091020410.11474@shell.lmi.net>

> On 4/9/20 2:56 AM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:
>> Right said Fred:
>>> MOST of the other PDP machines use the XX2247 key, which is a tubular one.
>>> But, THIS thread is about the weird one that is NOT tubular.
>> Here is my locksmith-cut 11/05 key attached to my pdp11 keyfob:
>>     https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3110483
On Thu, 9 Apr 2020, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote:
> The key fob is pretty cool!

But, we like hardcore porn.
How about some pictures of the machine?
(key in the lock, with covers off, and panels open!)


From turing at shaw.ca  Thu Apr  9 12:35:32 2020
From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 11:35:32 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091020410.11474@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20200407130415.BE0E618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <65638DAA-AADF-4D17-B4F1-162FBEC9379A@btinternet.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004081431560.24811@shell.lmi.net>
 <bd52dffa4b90c77045979e29cf944299.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <471a719d-112c-ad63-d20e-154c960379a6@figureeightbrewing.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091020410.11474@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <770778830.234226490.1586453732467.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>

I hope that you mean 'hardware porn', not 'hardcore porn'... :) 


From: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
To: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 10:22:43 AM 
Subject: Re: pdp11/05 key? 

> On 4/9/20 2:56 AM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: 
>> Right said Fred: 
>>> MOST of the other PDP machines use the XX2247 key, which is a tubular one. 
>>> But, THIS thread is about the weird one that is NOT tubular. 
>> Here is my locksmith-cut 11/05 key attached to my pdp11 keyfob: 
>> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3110483 
On Thu, 9 Apr 2020, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: 
> The key fob is pretty cool! 

But, we like hardcore porn. 
How about some pictures of the machine? 
(key in the lock, with covers off, and panels open!) 

From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Thu Apr  9 12:37:57 2020
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:37:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <770778830.234226490.1586453732467.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>
References: <20200407130415.BE0E618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <65638DAA-AADF-4D17-B4F1-162FBEC9379A@btinternet.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004081431560.24811@shell.lmi.net>
 <bd52dffa4b90c77045979e29cf944299.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <471a719d-112c-ad63-d20e-154c960379a6@figureeightbrewing.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091020410.11474@shell.lmi.net>
 <770778830.234226490.1586453732467.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <1382805121.228676.1586453877100@email.ionos.com>

> On April 9, 2020 at 12:35 PM Norman Jaffe via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> I hope that you mean 'hardware porn', not 'hardcore porn'... :)
> 
> But, we like hardcore porn.How about some pictures of the machine?(key in the lock, with covers off, and panels open!)

I've never seen ferrite that wasn't hard.

Will

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Apr  9 12:42:25 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 10:42:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <770778830.234226490.1586453732467.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>
References: <20200407130415.BE0E618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <65638DAA-AADF-4D17-B4F1-162FBEC9379A@btinternet.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004081431560.24811@shell.lmi.net>
 <bd52dffa4b90c77045979e29cf944299.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <471a719d-112c-ad63-d20e-154c960379a6@figureeightbrewing.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091020410.11474@shell.lmi.net>
 <770778830.234226490.1586453732467.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091040130.11474@shell.lmi.net>

>>>> MOST of the other PDP machines use the XX2247 key, which is a tubular one.
>>>> But, THIS thread is about the weird one that is NOT tubular.
>>> Here is my locksmith-cut 11/05 key attached to my pdp11 keyfob:
>>> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3110483
>> The key fob is pretty cool!
>
> But, we like hardcore porn.
> How about some pictures of the machine?
> (key in the lock, with covers off, and panels open!)

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020, Norman Jaffe wrote:
> I hope that you mean 'hardware porn', not 'hardcore porn'... :)

We like hardcore hardware.
Got any pictures of bare core planes?



From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Thu Apr  9 12:43:37 2020
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:43:37 -0400
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091040130.11474@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20200407130415.BE0E618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <65638DAA-AADF-4D17-B4F1-162FBEC9379A@btinternet.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004081431560.24811@shell.lmi.net>
 <bd52dffa4b90c77045979e29cf944299.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <471a719d-112c-ad63-d20e-154c960379a6@figureeightbrewing.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091020410.11474@shell.lmi.net>
 <770778830.234226490.1586453732467.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091040130.11474@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <508cfcb4-3c26-5684-1964-e6769530f1ba@ieee.org>

How about a CA Naked Mini, I may have a picture somewhere!

On 09/04/2020 13:42, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>>>> MOST of the other PDP machines use the XX2247 key, which is a 
>>>>> tubular one.
>>>>> But, THIS thread is about the weird one that is NOT tubular.
>>>> Here is my locksmith-cut 11/05 key attached to my pdp11 keyfob:
>>>> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3110483
>>> The key fob is pretty cool!
>>
>> But, we like hardcore porn.
>> How about some pictures of the machine?
>> (key in the lock, with covers off, and panels open!)
>
> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020, Norman Jaffe wrote:
>> I hope that you mean 'hardware porn', not 'hardcore porn'... :)
>
> We like hardcore hardware.
> Got any pictures of bare core planes?
>
>
  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE, MCSE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Thu Apr  9 13:51:38 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 19:51:38 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <619cd7fe-c8a0-4420-179a-21665bef45ef@9track.net>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+EKPkjY8JCjKh2Oe5962WhiFw-D3nEWYbwO1Pa2rNf3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ca01d60dec$21733690$6459a3b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <619cd7fe-c8a0-4420-179a-21665bef45ef@9track.net>
Message-ID: <013d01d60e9f$e6d5d290$b48177b0$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Matt Burke via
> cctalk
> Sent: 09 April 2020 09:40
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU
> 
> On 08/04/2020 22:24, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> > I will look at all the suggestions, particularly of a failure on the secondary
> side. Something must have burned up, because there was a distinct burning
> smell after the initial failure, although I have never been able to see any
> physical damage to anything, despite looking many times.
> >
> >
> >
> > But the thing that really puzzles me is that, after correcting the probes to
> include the D19 anode, there doesn?t seem to be anything that would cause
> D19 to trigger. Am I reading the trace wrong?
> >
> 
> The only paths to ground for VCC are C12, E3 and D19. The fact that VCC is
> stable for a period of time and then drops suddenly suggests it must be D19. It
> looks like there could be a pulse on D19 gate but it is in the order of 1-2 uS
> before VCC drops. There are more pulses prior to that but I wonder if some of
> that is just induced noise?


Here is a trace taken using a 5us timebase.

https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-detail-high-resolution.png

As a reminder the probes are connected as follows:

Ch1. 555 timer.
Ch2. D19 Anode
Ch3. D19 Gate.
Ch4. Q1 Source.

It doesn't look like there are any glitches on the D19 gate. I don't think it is clear why D19 is triggering, because all the previous oscillations are about the same.

> 
> It will be interesting to see what's happening on the secondary side, particularly
> with Q2. I guess you have already checked the obvious things like a short circuit
> on one of the outputs? Also worth checking the rectifier diodes D11, D12, D22
> and D23 (I think).

I did check Q2 before, but perhaps I should check again. I have checked for shorts on the actual outputs, but there don't seem to be any. I have checked one of those rectifiers, I think one of my next tasks is to desolder all of them and check them.

> 
> Matt


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Thu Apr  9 14:33:42 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 20:33:42 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <013d01d60e9f$e6d5d290$b48177b0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+EKPkjY8JCjKh2Oe5962WhiFw-D3nEWYbwO1Pa2rNf3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ca01d60dec$21733690$6459a3b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <619cd7fe-c8a0-4420-179a-21665bef45ef@9track.net>
 <013d01d60e9f$e6d5d290$b48177b0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <013e01d60ea5$c7162bc0$55428340$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via
> cctalk
> Sent: 09 April 2020 19:52
> To: 'Matt Burke' <matt at 9track.net>; 'Mattis Lind' <mattislind at gmail.com>;
> 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: RE: VAXmate PSU
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Matt Burke
> > via cctalk
> > Sent: 09 April 2020 09:40
> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> > Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU
> >
> > On 08/04/2020 22:24, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> > > I will look at all the suggestions, particularly of a failure on the
> > > secondary
> > side. Something must have burned up, because there was a distinct
> > burning smell after the initial failure, although I have never been
> > able to see any physical damage to anything, despite looking many times.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > But the thing that really puzzles me is that, after correcting the
> > > probes to
> > include the D19 anode, there doesn?t seem to be anything that would
> > cause
> > D19 to trigger. Am I reading the trace wrong?
> > >
> >
> > The only paths to ground for VCC are C12, E3 and D19. The fact that
> > VCC is stable for a period of time and then drops suddenly suggests it
> > must be D19. It looks like there could be a pulse on D19 gate but it
> > is in the order of 1-2 uS before VCC drops. There are more pulses
> > prior to that but I wonder if some of that is just induced noise?
> 
> 
> Here is a trace taken using a 5us timebase.
> 
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-detail-
> high-resolution.png
> 
> As a reminder the probes are connected as follows:
> 
> Ch1. 555 timer.
> Ch2. D19 Anode
> Ch3. D19 Gate.
> Ch4. Q1 Source.
> 
> It doesn't look like there are any glitches on the D19 gate. I don't think it is
> clear why D19 is triggering, because all the previous oscillations are about the
> same.
> 
> >
> > It will be interesting to see what's happening on the secondary side,
> > particularly with Q2. I guess you have already checked the obvious
> > things like a short circuit on one of the outputs? Also worth checking
> > the rectifier diodes D11, D12, D22 and D23 (I think).
> 
> I did check Q2 before, but perhaps I should check again. I have checked for
> shorts on the actual outputs, but there don't seem to be any. I have checked
> one of those rectifiers, I think one of my next tasks is to desolder all of them
> and check them.


I have put probes on Q2 with the probes connected as follows:

Ch1. D19 anode (for triggering)
Ch2. D19 gate
Ch3. Q2 anode
Ch4. Q2 gate

The result is here:

https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-secondary-scr-detail.png

It doesn't look like Q2 is being triggered.

> 
> >
> > Matt


From derek.newland at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 19:46:50 2020
From: derek.newland at gmail.com (Derek Newland)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 20:46:50 -0400
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <000901d59bda$7d7b3520$78719f60$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <000901d59bda$7d7b3520$78719f60$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CA+erfD=OikYX+5OUcT+DO7xXnaKT14O+VK1vfCUp73dVa01-jg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi J, it appears the invite has expired. Any chance to get a fresh one?
Thanks!

On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 12:55 PM jwest--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> I believe I sent the invite to my game channel, NOT the new classiccmp
> server..... please use this instead:
> https://discord.gg/gV6PKYW
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of jwest--- via
> cctalk
> Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 11:26 AM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Discord
>
> Greetings folks
>
>
>
> The past few years I?ve become fairly focused on a particular old
> 1999/2000 ww2 fps computer game. Of course playing it but I?m also on the
> development team for the game (EA has given up on it, but we still put out
> new releases, maps, patches, etc.). As a result of that, I pretty much live
> on Discord text/audio chat these days. If you send me an email I will
> eventually see it and may even respond heh. But if you send me anything on
> Discord I?m going to see it immediately. If any of you are on discord, I am
> ?Todesengel#9624?. Feel free to add me as a friend and that way you can get
> me usually immediately. I am not leaving the hobby, nor am I saying not to
> email me at the usual address. But a lot of you do talk to me
> semi-frequently and I?m just saying discord will get to me far quicker.
>
>
>
> In addition, mostly as an exercise to see how to do it, I set up a
> ClassicCMP discord server. That Discord server is NOT meant to replace this
> list, nor should it be taken to signal any less commitment on my part to
> keeping this list running. They are fundamentally different things; Discord
> is great for real time text chat back and forth. There are also audio and
> video channels if people want to use that to talk verbally or via video. To
> get on that server, here is a semi-permanent invite:
> https://discord.gg/U8Skw5g  Joining the server gets you to all the other
> folks who may join the classiccmp discord, not just me. Of course, that
> could be zero ? Like I said, I just did it as an exercise, and discord is
> how some of my family and friends stay in touch. But it is there if peeps
> want to use it.
>
>
>
> I?d rather not turn this into a long debate of whether discord is good or
> bad or anything like that. I?m just saying it?s there, and it?s quicker to
> get ahold of me that way at times.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
*Derek Newland* | (828) 234-4731 | derek.newland at gmail.com

From rick at rickmurphy.net  Thu Apr  9 22:05:12 2020
From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 23:05:12 -0400
Subject: DEC OS/8 Question (getting an error TOO BIG INIT)
In-Reply-To: <5e8e572e.1c69fb81.33483.2baf@mx.google.com>
References: <5e8e572e.1c69fb81.33483.2baf@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <89548d9c-5583-bdcf-739e-8098fc000036@rickmurphy.net>

On 4/8/2020 6:58 PM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote:
> I?m just going to guess (I have no experience with this architecture) ? would that mean either file corruption ? or possibly the last record needs to be padded out with ?empty? blocks to be the same size as the others?
>
>
What are you doing when you get that message?

 ??? -Rick


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Apr  9 22:31:25 2020
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 22:31:25 -0500
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <CA+erfD=OikYX+5OUcT+DO7xXnaKT14O+VK1vfCUp73dVa01-jg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <000901d59bda$7d7b3520$78719f60$@classiccmp.org>
 <CA+erfD=OikYX+5OUcT+DO7xXnaKT14O+VK1vfCUp73dVa01-jg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001f01d60ee8$84d54820$8e7fd860$@classiccmp.org>

Perma-invite

 

https://discord.gg/CwhYHY2

 

From: Derek Newland <derek.newland at gmail.com> 
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 7:47 PM
To: jwest at classiccmp.org; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Discord

 

Hi J, it appears the invite has expired. Any chance to get a fresh one? Thanks!

 

On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 12:55 PM jwest--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote:

I believe I sent the invite to my game channel, NOT the new classiccmp server..... please use this instead:
https://discord.gg/gV6PKYW

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> > On Behalf Of jwest--- via cctalk
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 11:26 AM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >
Subject: Discord

Greetings folks



The past few years I?ve become fairly focused on a particular old 1999/2000 ww2 fps computer game. Of course playing it but I?m also on the development team for the game (EA has given up on it, but we still put out new releases, maps, patches, etc.). As a result of that, I pretty much live on Discord text/audio chat these days. If you send me an email I will eventually see it and may even respond heh. But if you send me anything on Discord I?m going to see it immediately. If any of you are on discord, I am ?Todesengel#9624?. Feel free to add me as a friend and that way you can get me usually immediately. I am not leaving the hobby, nor am I saying not to email me at the usual address. But a lot of you do talk to me semi-frequently and I?m just saying discord will get to me far quicker.



In addition, mostly as an exercise to see how to do it, I set up a ClassicCMP discord server. That Discord server is NOT meant to replace this list, nor should it be taken to signal any less commitment on my part to keeping this list running. They are fundamentally different things; Discord is great for real time text chat back and forth. There are also audio and video channels if people want to use that to talk verbally or via video. To get on that server, here is a semi-permanent invite: https://discord.gg/U8Skw5g  Joining the server gets you to all the other folks who may join the classiccmp discord, not just me. Of course, that could be zero ? Like I said, I just did it as an exercise, and discord is how some of my family and friends stay in touch. But it is there if peeps want to use it.



I?d rather not turn this into a long debate of whether discord is good or bad or anything like that. I?m just saying it?s there, and it?s quicker to get ahold of me that way at times.



Best,



J


















 

-- 

Derek Newland | (828) 234-4731 |  <mailto:derek.newland at gmail.com> derek.newland at gmail.com


From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com  Thu Apr  9 23:18:06 2020
From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 23:18:06 -0500
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <E1jMO9v-0001Ax-My@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <102e98d20a5d2d131aace5a0a68f7841.ref@yahoo.com>, 
 <E1jM3EP-0005VP-KT@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <247be7d2c88562e1617c306a3d1c8f98@yahoo.com>
 <E1jMO9v-0001Ax-My@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <d7506dfb8f73e66846fc1cbc2f1ac0e9@yahoo.com>

On 2020-04-08 22:47, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote:
> The HP Orsay (not Grenoble, as I misremembered) implementation is the 
> only
> SNOBOL3 implementation I've used.  There's a free SNOBOL4 
> implementation
> here for various PC operating systems:
> 
>   https://github.com/spitbol/
> 
> Actually, it's a SPITBOL implementation, which is a compiled version of
> SNOBOL4; see:
> 
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPITBOL
> 
> I've used the Windows NT version for years; it's still my preferred
> language for string manipulation.  Note that SNOBOL3 and SNOBOL4 are
> different syntactically, though learning one certainly would aid in
> learning the other.
> 

I first learn of SNOBOL4, still have my copy of the green book which was 
how I first came across it. I know there are various versions available 
online these days, just been low on the todo list.

> If you're not necessarily wedded to the HP 21xx/1000 architecture, the 
> HP
> 3000 simulator and its associated MPE operating system kit from the 
> SIMH/HP
> site has a number of languages preinstalled:
> 
>   - BASIC (interpreter and compiler)
>   - COBOL 68
>   - COBOL 74/85
>   - FORTRAN 66
>   - Pascal
>   - RPG
>   - SPL
> 
> The latter is HP's proprietary Systems Programming Language, an 
> ALGOL-like
> derivative used in lieu of assembler to implement MPE and most of the
> compilers and utilities.

Only "wedded" to the HP 21xx for nostalgia purposes having been my first 
exposure to computers and wanted to play with it some more. Having lots 
of free time at the moment, I'm investigating lots of different systems. 
Mainly via emulation/simulation. HP 3000 is certainly on the list and a 
lot of the languages that you list there are on the "to play with" list 
so I'll probably bump it up the todo list a bit. Would be fun to play 
around with COBOL, FORTRAN and others again. I seem to recall we had a 
FORTRAN on our 2000F which was my first exposure to that language but as 
it was under 2000F TSB I assume it was something written in BASIC that 
either interpreted FORTRAN or maybe a p-code like system or what I have 
no idea. Was so long ago I have old print outs from it but don't recall 
anything more about it otherwise and haven't ever seen anything about it 
in my limited searches. But it did start me exploring other languages 
which lead me to discover SNOBOL and many others.

David Williams

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 23:42:58 2020
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 00:42:58 -0400
Subject: DEC OS/8 Question (getting an error TOO BIG INIT)
In-Reply-To: <89548d9c-5583-bdcf-739e-8098fc000036@rickmurphy.net>
References: <5e8e572e.1c69fb81.33483.2baf@mx.google.com>
 <89548d9c-5583-bdcf-739e-8098fc000036@rickmurphy.net>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudtRbk9S02hbbKW95zXs_GFSkFc7w_Q4msdddrqB8FGUw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 11:05 PM Rick Murphy via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 4/8/2020 6:58 PM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote:
> > I?m just going to guess (I have no experience with this architecture) ?
> would that mean either file corruption ? or possibly the last record needs
> to be padded out with ?empty? blocks to be the same size as the others?
> >
> >
> What are you doing when you get that message?
>
>      -Ric
>

I have an emulated rk05 disk running on simH.  Pdp 8i with 32K.   The issue
was that I was missing two files

Here is what works (from Dave Gesswein's site:), I was missing the 3rd and
4th lines:

.R FRTS
*ADVENT
*ADVENT.TX/1
*ADVENT.DA/2
*$
.SAVE SYS ADVENT !Save the game
.R ADVENT !And play.

After the above one can just run the SV file to run Adventure:

.R ADVENT.SV

Also...if ADVENT is not in the boot partition you have to specify, i.e.

.R RKB0:ADVENT.SV

Bill

From new_castle_j at yahoo.com  Thu Apr  9 23:51:37 2020
From: new_castle_j at yahoo.com (Jonathan Haddox)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 04:51:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: ArcNet board Wanted, Intercontinental Micro
References: <1762291630.3541596.1586494297168.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1762291630.3541596.1586494297168@mail.yahoo.com>

I'm on a quest to find an ISA ARCnet board from Intercontinental Micro.  It's called the LANPC and would be very useful to me since I have the special software to run it.  Here's a picture of what it looks like.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xAib47IUbTP7Vrclh_vaeGYwrLCA4aeO

Thank You,

Jonathan

From djg at pdp8online.com  Thu Apr  9 17:01:28 2020
From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 18:01:28 -0400
Subject: DEC OS/8 Question (getting an error TOO BIG INIT)
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudKrCPoXNUzn1fYTpAdPg2dcuQ9Na6X=1QsfKb_CUEdnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBudKrCPoXNUzn1fYTpAdPg2dcuQ9Na6X=1QsfKb_CUEdnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200409220128.GA24994@hugin3>

On Wed, Apr 08, 2020 at 03:34:18PM -0400, Bill Degnan wrote:
> Hi,
> . FRTS
> 
> ..dumps me to the * prompt ...
> 
> *RKB0:ADVENT.LD  [return]
> *   [esc]
> 
> rather than loading ADVENTURE I get the following result:
> 
> D.F. TOO BIG INIT  0000
> MAIN 1740
> .
> 

You need to specify the datafiles to use.

.R FRTS
*RKB0:ADVENT.LD
*RKB0:ADVENT.TX/1
*RKB0:ADVENT.DA/2
*$
.


http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/os8_html/ADVENT.DC?act=file;fn=images/os8/diag-games-kermit.rk05;blk=2243,9,1;to=auto

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 17:10:53 2020
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 18:10:53 -0400
Subject: DEC OS/8 Question (getting an error TOO BIG INIT)
In-Reply-To: <20200409220128.GA24994@hugin3>
References: <CABGJBudKrCPoXNUzn1fYTpAdPg2dcuQ9Na6X=1QsfKb_CUEdnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200409220128.GA24994@hugin3>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuesQTZUaGeAZt96rWVgn54vxQ0dTkj03m6h+N2ZjP9m8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 6:01 PM David Gesswein via cctech <
cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 08, 2020 at 03:34:18PM -0400, Bill Degnan wrote:
> > Hi,
> > . FRTS
> >
> > ..dumps me to the * prompt ...
> >
> > *RKB0:ADVENT.LD  [return]
> > *   [esc]
> >
> > rather than loading ADVENTURE I get the following result:
> >
> > D.F. TOO BIG INIT  0000
> > MAIN 1740
> > .
> >
>
> You need to specify the datafiles to use.
>
> .R FRTS
> *RKB0:ADVENT.LD
> *RKB0:ADVENT.TX/1
> *RKB0:ADVENT.DA/2
> *$
> .
>
>
>
> http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/os8_html/ADVENT.DC?act=file;fn=images/os8/diag-games-kermit.rk05;blk=2243,9,1;to=auto


Thank you David.  I was able to load the .SV file instead, but I am glad I
now know what was needed.  I think in my pdp 11 I have the same issue.
Bill

>
>

From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Fri Apr 10 01:49:40 2020
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 01:49:40 -0500
Subject: ArcNet board Wanted, Intercontinental Micro
In-Reply-To: <1762291630.3541596.1586494297168@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1762291630.3541596.1586494297168.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1762291630.3541596.1586494297168@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5E901704.2060802@charter.net>

Jonathan,
     I have several ISA ArcNet boards but I don't know what brand they 
are. If you want I can dig them out this weekend. Are You interested?
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 4/9/2020 11:51 PM, Jonathan Haddox via cctalk wrote:
> I'm on a quest to find an ISA ARCnet board from Intercontinental Micro.  It's called the LANPC and would be very useful to me since I have the special software to run it.  Here's a picture of what it looks like.
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xAib47IUbTP7Vrclh_vaeGYwrLCA4aeO
>
> Thank You,
>
> Jonathan
>


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Fri Apr 10 08:47:19 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 14:47:19 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <013e01d60ea5$c7162bc0$55428340$@ntlworld.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+EKPkjY8JCjKh2Oe5962WhiFw-D3nEWYbwO1Pa2rNf3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ca01d60dec$21733690$6459a3b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <619cd7fe-c8a0-4420-179a-21665bef45ef@9track.net>
 <013d01d60e9f$e6d5d290$b48177b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <013e01d60ea5$c7162bc0$55428340$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <017901d60f3e$8e64d490$ab2e7db0$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
> Sent: 09 April 2020 20:34
> To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'Rob Jarratt' <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; 'General
> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; 'Matt
> Burke' <matt at 9track.net>; 'Mattis Lind' <mattislind at gmail.com>
> Subject: RE: VAXmate PSU
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt
> > via cctalk
> > Sent: 09 April 2020 19:52
> > To: 'Matt Burke' <matt at 9track.net>; 'Mattis Lind'
> > <mattislind at gmail.com>; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
> > Posts' <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: RE: VAXmate PSU
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Matt Burke
> > > via cctalk
> > > Sent: 09 April 2020 09:40
> > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> > > Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU
> > >
> > > On 08/04/2020 22:24, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> > > > I will look at all the suggestions, particularly of a failure on
> > > > the secondary
> > > side. Something must have burned up, because there was a distinct
> > > burning smell after the initial failure, although I have never been
> > > able to see any physical damage to anything, despite looking many times.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > But the thing that really puzzles me is that, after correcting the
> > > > probes to
> > > include the D19 anode, there doesn?t seem to be anything that would
> > > cause
> > > D19 to trigger. Am I reading the trace wrong?
> > > >
> > >
> > > The only paths to ground for VCC are C12, E3 and D19. The fact that
> > > VCC is stable for a period of time and then drops suddenly suggests
> > > it must be D19. It looks like there could be a pulse on D19 gate but
> > > it is in the order of 1-2 uS before VCC drops. There are more pulses
> > > prior to that but I wonder if some of that is just induced noise?
> >
> >
> > Here is a trace taken using a 5us timebase.
> >
> > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-det
> > ail-
> > high-resolution.png
> >
> > As a reminder the probes are connected as follows:
> >
> > Ch1. 555 timer.
> > Ch2. D19 Anode
> > Ch3. D19 Gate.
> > Ch4. Q1 Source.
> >
> > It doesn't look like there are any glitches on the D19 gate. I don't
> > think it is clear why D19 is triggering, because all the previous
> > oscillations are about the same.
> >
> > >
> > > It will be interesting to see what's happening on the secondary
> > > side, particularly with Q2. I guess you have already checked the
> > > obvious things like a short circuit on one of the outputs? Also
> > > worth checking the rectifier diodes D11, D12, D22 and D23 (I think).
> >

I have found the problem and a possible other problem too.

I have discovered that D24 is shorted (no visible damage), although its twin D23 is not. I will replace both. I know it is shorted because I lifted one end.

I have also checked the rectifiers, D11 and D12. I am not sure if there is a possible problem here too.

D12 is an MBR3045PT. It tests correctly as a common cathode diode network. However, the forward voltage seems to be 0.19V. The datasheet (https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/53622/FAIRCHILD/MBR3045PT.html) would suggest it should be 0.76V at room temperature. I can see no physical damage to it though.

D11 is marked PHS 2402. It too tests correctly as a common cathode diode network, with a forward voltage of 0.43V. I can't find a datasheet for it though, but I believe the equivalent is MUR1610CT (https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/82128/ONSEMI/MUR1610CT.html) and I think the forward voltage for that should be 0.9V. Again no physical damage that I can see.

Is it possible both rectifiers are marginal? Or at least D12? Should I replace one or both?

Thanks

Rob

> > I did check Q2 before, but perhaps I should check again. I have
> > checked for shorts on the actual outputs, but there don't seem to be
> > any. I have checked one of those rectifiers, I think one of my next
> > tasks is to desolder all of them and check them.
> 
> 
> I have put probes on Q2 with the probes connected as follows:
> 
> Ch1. D19 anode (for triggering)
> Ch2. D19 gate
> Ch3. Q2 anode
> Ch4. Q2 gate
> 
> The result is here:
> 
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-
> secondary-scr-detail.png
> 
> It doesn't look like Q2 is being triggered.
> 
> >
> > >
> > > Matt


From mattislind at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 09:15:31 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 16:15:31 +0200
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <017901d60f3e$8e64d490$ab2e7db0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+EKPkjY8JCjKh2Oe5962WhiFw-D3nEWYbwO1Pa2rNf3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ca01d60dec$21733690$6459a3b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <619cd7fe-c8a0-4420-179a-21665bef45ef@9track.net>
 <013d01d60e9f$e6d5d290$b48177b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <013e01d60ea5$c7162bc0$55428340$@ntlworld.com>
 <017901d60f3e$8e64d490$ab2e7db0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82SLCaFTg-L_hJsJpg9=mor00z1N=d479oShnyxhUrG4Bkg@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> I have found the problem and a possible other problem too.
>

But that is great!

>
> I have discovered that D24 is shorted (no visible damage), although its
> twin D23 is not. I will replace both. I know it is shorted because I lifted
> one end.
>

Well, sometime there are no visible damage but still a smell.

>
> I have also checked the rectifiers, D11 and D12. I am not sure if there is
> a possible problem here too.
>
> D12 is an MBR3045PT. It tests correctly as a common cathode diode network.
> However, the forward voltage seems to be 0.19V. The datasheet (
> https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/53622/FAIRCHILD/MBR3045PT.html)
> would suggest it should be 0.76V at room temperature. I can see no physical
> damage to it though.
>

The point is that the measurement in the data sheet is with 20A forward
current. You meter perhaps give 10 mA forward current. This is a Schottky
rectifier it has very low Vf.
0.19 is completely normal.


>
> D11 is marked PHS 2402. It too tests correctly as a common cathode diode
> network, with a forward voltage of 0.43V. I can't find a datasheet for it
> though, but I believe the equivalent is MUR1610CT (
> https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/82128/ONSEMI/MUR1610CT.html)
> and I think the forward voltage for that should be 0.9V. Again no physical
> damage that I can see.
>
> Is it possible both rectifiers are marginal? Or at least D12? Should I
> replace one or both?
>
>
No. At this point replace just D24 and possibly D23. Actually I don't think
it is necessary. But to be on the safe side it might be a good idea.

But the question is why it failed. Sometimes they fail because of just
nothing. But it could be something in the network following it that had
made it fail. Check that there are no short circuit in the LM317 regulator.
Check output capacitors in this area. ESR and value.

/Mattis


> Thanks
>
> Rob
>
> > > I did check Q2 before, but perhaps I should check again. I have
> > > checked for shorts on the actual outputs, but there don't seem to be
> > > any. I have checked one of those rectifiers, I think one of my next
> > > tasks is to desolder all of them and check them.
> >
> >
> > I have put probes on Q2 with the probes connected as follows:
> >
> > Ch1. D19 anode (for triggering)
> > Ch2. D19 gate
> > Ch3. Q2 anode
> > Ch4. Q2 gate
> >
> > The result is here:
> >
> > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-
> > secondary-scr-detail.png
> >
> > It doesn't look like Q2 is being triggered.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Matt
>
>

From bbrown314 at comcast.net  Fri Apr 10 09:18:33 2020
From: bbrown314 at comcast.net (Bob4schoolboard94)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 09:18:33 -0500
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <d7506dfb8f73e66846fc1cbc2f1ac0e9@yahoo.com>
References: <d7506dfb8f73e66846fc1cbc2f1ac0e9@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4D381A5A-6571-4B32-8F22-6E7C81252EDA@comcast.net>

If it helps at all,  I run a public hp2000/access emulated system that everyone is free to play with.  It?s been up for many years.

Telnet to Mickey.publicvm.com
Do ctl m and ctl j till you see PLEASE LOG IN
HEL-t001,hp2000,1

If anyone wants a personal account just let me know.

-Bob 


-Bob

> On Apr 9, 2020, at 11:18 PM, David Williams via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ?On 2020-04-08 22:47, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote:
>> The HP Orsay (not Grenoble, as I misremembered) implementation is the only
>> SNOBOL3 implementation I've used.  There's a free SNOBOL4 implementation
>> here for various PC operating systems:
>>  https://github.com/spitbol/
>> Actually, it's a SPITBOL implementation, which is a compiled version of
>> SNOBOL4; see:
>>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPITBOL
>> I've used the Windows NT version for years; it's still my preferred
>> language for string manipulation.  Note that SNOBOL3 and SNOBOL4 are
>> different syntactically, though learning one certainly would aid in
>> learning the other.
> 
> I first learn of SNOBOL4, still have my copy of the green book which was how I first came across it. I know there are various versions available online these days, just been low on the todo list.
> 
>> If you're not necessarily wedded to the HP 21xx/1000 architecture, the HP
>> 3000 simulator and its associated MPE operating system kit from the SIMH/HP
>> site has a number of languages preinstalled:
>>  - BASIC (interpreter and compiler)
>>  - COBOL 68
>>  - COBOL 74/85
>>  - FORTRAN 66
>>  - Pascal
>>  - RPG
>>  - SPL
>> The latter is HP's proprietary Systems Programming Language, an ALGOL-like
>> derivative used in lieu of assembler to implement MPE and most of the
>> compilers and utilities.
> 
> Only "wedded" to the HP 21xx for nostalgia purposes having been my first exposure to computers and wanted to play with it some more. Having lots of free time at the moment, I'm investigating lots of different systems. Mainly via emulation/simulation. HP 3000 is certainly on the list and a lot of the languages that you list there are on the "to play with" list so I'll probably bump it up the todo list a bit. Would be fun to play around with COBOL, FORTRAN and others again. I seem to recall we had a FORTRAN on our 2000F which was my first exposure to that language but as it was under 2000F TSB I assume it was something written in BASIC that either interpreted FORTRAN or maybe a p-code like system or what I have no idea. Was so long ago I have old print outs from it but don't recall anything more about it otherwise and haven't ever seen anything about it in my limited searches. But it did start me exploring other languages which lead me to discover SNOBOL and many others.
> 
> David Williams


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Fri Apr 10 10:07:40 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 16:07:40 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SLCaFTg-L_hJsJpg9=mor00z1N=d479oShnyxhUrG4Bkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+EKPkjY8JCjKh2Oe5962WhiFw-D3nEWYbwO1Pa2rNf3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ca01d60dec$21733690$6459a3b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <619cd7fe-c8a0-4420-179a-21665bef45ef@9track.net>
 <013d01d60e9f$e6d5d290$b48177b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <013e01d60ea5$c7162bc0$55428340$@ntlworld.com>
 <017901d60f3e$8e64d490$ab2e7db0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SLCaFTg-L_hJsJpg9=mor00z1N=d479oShnyxhUrG4Bkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <017c01d60f49$c791f8f0$56b5ead0$@ntlworld.com>

I took a break and while I was doing that I thought the same thing, I am going to see if I can see a reason for the failure.

 

I did wonder if the tester?s current would be too low to show the nominal forward voltage on D11 and D12. I won?t change those.

 

Thanks

 

Rob

 

From: Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com> 
Sent: 10 April 2020 15:16
To: rob at jarratt.me.uk
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; Matt Burke <matt at 9track.net>
Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU

 

 

 




I have found the problem and a possible other problem too.

 

But that is great! 


I have discovered that D24 is shorted (no visible damage), although its twin D23 is not. I will replace both. I know it is shorted because I lifted one end.

 

Well, sometime there are no visible damage but still a smell. 


I have also checked the rectifiers, D11 and D12. I am not sure if there is a possible problem here too.

D12 is an MBR3045PT. It tests correctly as a common cathode diode network. However, the forward voltage seems to be 0.19V. The datasheet (https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/53622/FAIRCHILD/MBR3045PT.html) would suggest it should be 0.76V at room temperature. I can see no physical damage to it though.

 

The point is that the measurement in the data sheet is with 20A forward current. You meter perhaps give 10 mA forward current. This is a Schottky rectifier it has very low Vf.

0.19 is completely normal.

 


D11 is marked PHS 2402. It too tests correctly as a common cathode diode network, with a forward voltage of 0.43V. I can't find a datasheet for it though, but I believe the equivalent is MUR1610CT (https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/82128/ONSEMI/MUR1610CT.html) and I think the forward voltage for that should be 0.9V. Again no physical damage that I can see.

Is it possible both rectifiers are marginal? Or at least D12? Should I replace one or both?

 

No. At this point replace just D24 and possibly D23. Actually I don't think it is necessary. But to be on the safe side it might be a good idea.

 

But the question is why it failed. Sometimes they fail because of just nothing. But it could be something in the network following it that had made it fail. Check that there are no short circuit in the LM317 regulator. Check output capacitors in this area. ESR and value.

 

/Mattis

 

Thanks

Rob

> > I did check Q2 before, but perhaps I should check again. I have
> > checked for shorts on the actual outputs, but there don't seem to be
> > any. I have checked one of those rectifiers, I think one of my next
> > tasks is to desolder all of them and check them.
> 
> 
> I have put probes on Q2 with the probes connected as follows:
> 
> Ch1. D19 anode (for triggering)
> Ch2. D19 gate
> Ch3. Q2 anode
> Ch4. Q2 gate
> 
> The result is here:
> 
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/primary-side-shutdown-
> secondary-scr-detail.png
> 
> It doesn't look like Q2 is being triggered.
> 
> >
> > >
> > > Matt


From bbrown314 at comcast.net  Fri Apr 10 11:11:18 2020
From: bbrown314 at comcast.net (bbrown314 at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:11:18 -0500
Subject: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
In-Reply-To: <4D381A5A-6571-4B32-8F22-6E7C81252EDA@comcast.net>
References: <d7506dfb8f73e66846fc1cbc2f1ac0e9@yahoo.com>
 <4D381A5A-6571-4B32-8F22-6E7C81252EDA@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <008c01d60f52$abd842a0$0388c7e0$@comcast.net>

Lots of games available (do GRO to see the group listing), full HP contributed library (LIB).
-Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Bob4schoolboard94 via cctalk
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 9:19 AM
To: David Williams <nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh

If it helps at all,  I run a public hp2000/access emulated system that everyone is free to play with.  It?s been up for many years.

Telnet to Mickey.publicvm.com
Do ctl m and ctl j till you see PLEASE LOG IN
HEL-t001,hp2000,1

If anyone wants a personal account just let me know.

-Bob 


-Bob

> On Apr 9, 2020, at 11:18 PM, David Williams via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ?On 2020-04-08 22:47, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote:
>> The HP Orsay (not Grenoble, as I misremembered) implementation is the 
>> only
>> SNOBOL3 implementation I've used.  There's a free SNOBOL4 
>> implementation here for various PC operating systems:
>>  https://github.com/spitbol/
>> Actually, it's a SPITBOL implementation, which is a compiled version 
>> of SNOBOL4; see:
>>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPITBOL
>> I've used the Windows NT version for years; it's still my preferred 
>> language for string manipulation.  Note that SNOBOL3 and SNOBOL4 are 
>> different syntactically, though learning one certainly would aid in 
>> learning the other.
> 
> I first learn of SNOBOL4, still have my copy of the green book which was how I first came across it. I know there are various versions available online these days, just been low on the todo list.
> 
>> If you're not necessarily wedded to the HP 21xx/1000 architecture, 
>> the HP
>> 3000 simulator and its associated MPE operating system kit from the 
>> SIMH/HP site has a number of languages preinstalled:
>>  - BASIC (interpreter and compiler)
>>  - COBOL 68
>>  - COBOL 74/85
>>  - FORTRAN 66
>>  - Pascal
>>  - RPG
>>  - SPL
>> The latter is HP's proprietary Systems Programming Language, an 
>> ALGOL-like derivative used in lieu of assembler to implement MPE and 
>> most of the compilers and utilities.
> 
> Only "wedded" to the HP 21xx for nostalgia purposes having been my first exposure to computers and wanted to play with it some more. Having lots of free time at the moment, I'm investigating lots of different systems. Mainly via emulation/simulation. HP 3000 is certainly on the list and a lot of the languages that you list there are on the "to play with" list so I'll probably bump it up the todo list a bit. Would be fun to play around with COBOL, FORTRAN and others again. I seem to recall we had a FORTRAN on our 2000F which was my first exposure to that language but as it was under 2000F TSB I assume it was something written in BASIC that either interpreted FORTRAN or maybe a p-code like system or what I have no idea. Was so long ago I have old print outs from it but don't recall anything more about it otherwise and haven't ever seen anything about it in my limited searches. But it did start me exploring other languages which lead me to discover SNOBOL and many others.
> 
> David Williams


From new_castle_j at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 10 13:36:25 2020
From: new_castle_j at yahoo.com (Jonathan Haddox)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:36:25 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: ArcNet board Wanted, Intercontinental Micro
References: <893676506.3798081.1586543785356.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <893676506.3798081.1586543785356@mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you Richard, yes if you're willing to check your inventory of ARCnet cards I may find something useful.  ARCnet boards are pretty much all the same, but this particular one I'm hunting for from Intercontinental Micro is compatible with a special boot ROM I have that promises to unlock wonders unknown to the world since 1987.  Maybe I exaggerate a little bit, but I do appreciate you checking.

Jonathan

From chrise at pobox.com  Fri Apr 10 21:05:27 2020
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 21:05:27 -0500
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091040130.11474@shell.lmi.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091040130.11474@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <C07596C5-368A-4BF2-8207-FB05E8168C2D@pobox.com>

CDC had a memory manufacturing facility in SE Asia, staffed with mostly young Asian women.
An older colleague at ETA helped set it up (he just passed away; RIP Carl).

He called it the Hong Kong Core House.

--
Chris Elmquist

> On Apr 9, 2020, at 12:44 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
>> 
>>>>> MOST of the other PDP machines use the XX2247 key, which is a tubular one.
>>>>> But, THIS thread is about the weird one that is NOT tubular.
>>>> Here is my locksmith-cut 11/05 key attached to my pdp11 keyfob:
>>>> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3110483
>>> The key fob is pretty cool!
>> 
>> But, we like hardcore porn.
>> How about some pictures of the machine?
>> (key in the lock, with covers off, and panels open!)
> 
>> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020, Norman Jaffe wrote:
>> I hope that you mean 'hardware porn', not 'hardcore porn'... :)
> 
> We like hardcore hardware.
> Got any pictures of bare core planes?
> 


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Apr 10 21:49:26 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 19:49:26 -0700
Subject: IBM Series 500 1/2" tape reels--What does the little red peg do?
Message-ID: <bcb14124-8fcb-0ab9-8f07-c61dceff02bc@sydex.com>

I'm working with a batch of tapes that includes several IBM Series 500 7
track reels.  If you look at the back of the reel, there's no customary
thumb recess for removing the write ring.  Rather, the reels have a
small red plastic peg that extends through to the front of the reel.

Is this for ejecting the write ring (I haven't tried)?

In any case it's a bit annoying because it grazes the edge of the ring
sensing finger, making a little "click" every time the reel makes a
complete revolution.

--Chuck


From useddec at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 22:42:11 2020
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 22:42:11 -0500
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <508cfcb4-3c26-5684-1964-e6769530f1ba@ieee.org>
References: <20200407130415.BE0E618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <65638DAA-AADF-4D17-B4F1-162FBEC9379A@btinternet.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004081431560.24811@shell.lmi.net>
 <bd52dffa4b90c77045979e29cf944299.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <471a719d-112c-ad63-d20e-154c960379a6@figureeightbrewing.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091020410.11474@shell.lmi.net>
 <770778830.234226490.1586453732467.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091040130.11474@shell.lmi.net>
 <508cfcb4-3c26-5684-1964-e6769530f1ba@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOc5xr1imF9TeGRaHc2h=hoK0WavY+r6RzMyg7Efsnaxw@mail.gmail.com>

I have two unused different models here.I can text pics if you want. If you
want to make an offer,
 contact me off list.

Paul

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:43 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> How about a CA Naked Mini, I may have a picture somewhere!
>
> On 09/04/2020 13:42, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> >>>>> MOST of the other PDP machines use the XX2247 key, which is a
> >>>>> tubular one.
> >>>>> But, THIS thread is about the weird one that is NOT tubular.
> >>>> Here is my locksmith-cut 11/05 key attached to my pdp11 keyfob:
> >>>> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3110483
> >>> The key fob is pretty cool!
> >>
> >> But, we like hardcore porn.
> >> How about some pictures of the machine?
> >> (key in the lock, with covers off, and panels open!)
> >
> > On Thu, 9 Apr 2020, Norman Jaffe wrote:
> >> I hope that you mean 'hardware porn', not 'hardcore porn'... :)
> >
> > We like hardcore hardware.
> > Got any pictures of bare core planes?
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Nigel Johnson
> MSc., MIEEE, MCSE
> VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
>
> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
>
>
> You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591
>
> If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday
>
> This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route
> from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by
> any number of system administrators along the way.
>     Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>
>
>
> Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print
> this message
>
>
>
>

From useddec at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 22:43:16 2020
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 22:43:16 -0500
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuOc5xr1imF9TeGRaHc2h=hoK0WavY+r6RzMyg7Efsnaxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20200407130415.BE0E618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <65638DAA-AADF-4D17-B4F1-162FBEC9379A@btinternet.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004081431560.24811@shell.lmi.net>
 <bd52dffa4b90c77045979e29cf944299.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <471a719d-112c-ad63-d20e-154c960379a6@figureeightbrewing.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091020410.11474@shell.lmi.net>
 <770778830.234226490.1586453732467.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091040130.11474@shell.lmi.net>
 <508cfcb4-3c26-5684-1964-e6769530f1ba@ieee.org>
 <CACwhfuOc5xr1imF9TeGRaHc2h=hoK0WavY+r6RzMyg7Efsnaxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPSXYP1yjnbkDSUKGvOc_rtHOfZxjcEeODw_UCvz+7mUw@mail.gmail.com>

That should have been 2 different naked minis.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 10:42 PM Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have two unused different models here.I can text pics if you want. If
> you want to make an offer,
>  contact me off list.
>
> Paul
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:43 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> How about a CA Naked Mini, I may have a picture somewhere!
>>
>> On 09/04/2020 13:42, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> >>>>> MOST of the other PDP machines use the XX2247 key, which is a
>> >>>>> tubular one.
>> >>>>> But, THIS thread is about the weird one that is NOT tubular.
>> >>>> Here is my locksmith-cut 11/05 key attached to my pdp11 keyfob:
>> >>>> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3110483
>> >>> The key fob is pretty cool!
>> >>
>> >> But, we like hardcore porn.
>> >> How about some pictures of the machine?
>> >> (key in the lock, with covers off, and panels open!)
>> >
>> > On Thu, 9 Apr 2020, Norman Jaffe wrote:
>> >> I hope that you mean 'hardware porn', not 'hardcore porn'... :)
>> >
>> > We like hardcore hardware.
>> > Got any pictures of bare core planes?
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nigel Johnson
>> MSc., MIEEE, MCSE
>> VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
>>
>> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
>>
>>
>> You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591
>>
>> If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again
>> yesterday
>>
>> This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route
>> from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by
>> any number of system administrators along the way.
>>     Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>
>>
>>
>> Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print
>> this message
>>
>>
>>
>>

From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Apr 11 04:32:31 2020
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 11:32:31 +0200
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <C07596C5-368A-4BF2-8207-FB05E8168C2D@pobox.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091040130.11474@shell.lmi.net>
 <C07596C5-368A-4BF2-8207-FB05E8168C2D@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCENVx-M0sVH173c598WfbMZya2+W7SRq1bF+Cn7NPLERw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 04:05, Chris Elmquist via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> CDC had a memory manufacturing facility in SE Asia, staffed with mostly young Asian women.
> An older colleague at ETA helped set it up (he just passed away; RIP Carl).
>
> He called it the Hong Kong Core House.

There's a few mentioned of this here and there around the web, e.g.

http://bjruss.com/SAGE.html

& in

https://books.google.cz/books?id=Q7ffAwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA102&ots=nkzF7wQT4i&dq=%22Hong%20Kong%20Core%20House%22&pg=PA103#v=onepage&q=%22Hong%20Kong%20Core%20House%22&f=false

What I don't get is why pleasingly-assonant phrase causes the great
amusement it seems to. I think it's a reference to something else I
don't know. Can anyone give me a pointer?

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From chrise at pobox.com  Sat Apr 11 06:55:48 2020
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 06:55:48 -0500
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCENVx-M0sVH173c598WfbMZya2+W7SRq1bF+Cn7NPLERw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCENVx-M0sVH173c598WfbMZya2+W7SRq1bF+Cn7NPLERw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EAB47E68-7191-4865-A264-6CD07FB8713D@pobox.com>


> On Apr 11, 2020, at 4:33 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ?On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 04:05, Chris Elmquist via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> CDC had a memory manufacturing facility in SE Asia, staffed with mostly young Asian women.
>> An older colleague at ETA helped set it up (he just passed away; RIP Carl).
>> 
>> He called it the Hong Kong Core House.
> 
> There's a few mentioned of this here and there around the web, e.g.
> 
> http://bjruss.com/SAGE.html
> 
> & in
> 
> https://books.google.cz/books?id=Q7ffAwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA102&ots=nkzF7wQT4i&dq=%22Hong%20Kong%20Core%20House%22&pg=PA103#v=onepage&q=%22Hong%20Kong%20Core%20House%22&f=false
> 
> What I don't get is why pleasingly-assonant phrase causes the great
> amusement it seems to. I think it's a reference to something else I
> don't know. Can anyone give me a pointer?

This might be one of those jokes that if you have to explain it, it looses the punch ...  but I?ll try,

There used to also be something called a Hong Kong Whore House, similarly staffed with young Asian women, but they didn?t make core planes there.

?
Chris Elmquist 




From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Sat Apr 11 12:40:39 2020
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 13:40:39 -0400
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <001f01d60ee8$84d54820$8e7fd860$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <000901d59bda$7d7b3520$78719f60$@classiccmp.org>
 <CA+erfD=OikYX+5OUcT+DO7xXnaKT14O+VK1vfCUp73dVa01-jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001f01d60ee8$84d54820$8e7fd860$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAhK_iwO0J8mD2_9E64LED=CiRKpxmVDB-GXpQuQRpMTMw@mail.gmail.com>

Medal of Honor is one of my all-time favorite games.

--
Anders Nelson


On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 4:09 PM jwest--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Perma-invite
>
>
>
> https://discord.gg/CwhYHY2
>
>
>
> From: Derek Newland <derek.newland at gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 7:47 PM
> To: jwest at classiccmp.org; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
> Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Discord
>
>
>
> Hi J, it appears the invite has expired. Any chance to get a fresh one?
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 12:55 PM jwest--- via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote:
>
> I believe I sent the invite to my game channel, NOT the new classiccmp
> server..... please use this instead:
> https://discord.gg/gV6PKYW
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org <mailto:
> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> > On Behalf Of jwest--- via cctalk
> Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 11:26 AM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >
> Subject: Discord
>
> Greetings folks
>
>
>
> The past few years I?ve become fairly focused on a particular old
> 1999/2000 ww2 fps computer game. Of course playing it but I?m also on the
> development team for the game (EA has given up on it, but we still put out
> new releases, maps, patches, etc.). As a result of that, I pretty much live
> on Discord text/audio chat these days. If you send me an email I will
> eventually see it and may even respond heh. But if you send me anything on
> Discord I?m going to see it immediately. If any of you are on discord, I am
> ?Todesengel#9624?. Feel free to add me as a friend and that way you can get
> me usually immediately. I am not leaving the hobby, nor am I saying not to
> email me at the usual address. But a lot of you do talk to me
> semi-frequently and I?m just saying discord will get to me far quicker.
>
>
>
> In addition, mostly as an exercise to see how to do it, I set up a
> ClassicCMP discord server. That Discord server is NOT meant to replace this
> list, nor should it be taken to signal any less commitment on my part to
> keeping this list running. They are fundamentally different things; Discord
> is great for real time text chat back and forth. There are also audio and
> video channels if people want to use that to talk verbally or via video. To
> get on that server, here is a semi-permanent invite:
> https://discord.gg/U8Skw5g  Joining the server gets you to all the other
> folks who may join the classiccmp discord, not just me. Of course, that
> could be zero ? Like I said, I just did it as an exercise, and discord is
> how some of my family and friends stay in touch. But it is there if peeps
> want to use it.
>
>
>
> I?d rather not turn this into a long debate of whether discord is good or
> bad or anything like that. I?m just saying it?s there, and it?s quicker to
> get ahold of me that way at times.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Derek Newland | (828) 234-4731 |  <mailto:derek.newland at gmail.com>
> derek.newland at gmail.com
>
>

From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Apr 11 16:51:29 2020
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 23:51:29 +0200
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <EAB47E68-7191-4865-A264-6CD07FB8713D@pobox.com>
References: <CAMTenCENVx-M0sVH173c598WfbMZya2+W7SRq1bF+Cn7NPLERw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EAB47E68-7191-4865-A264-6CD07FB8713D@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGrLP8yHOsQMtAzm2+Emq9CfFfFZJJEXZTJmHod9XboAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 13:55, Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> This might be one of those jokes that if you have to explain it, it looses the punch ...  but I?ll try,
>
> There used to also be something called a Hong Kong Whore House, similarly staffed with young Asian women, but they didn?t make core planes there.

I've been to HK and I was never aware of this! Thank you for the
clarification. :-D

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sun Apr 12 03:14:12 2020
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 02:14:12 -0600
Subject: pdp11/05 key?
In-Reply-To: <770778830.234226490.1586453732467.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>
References: <20200407130415.BE0E618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <65638DAA-AADF-4D17-B4F1-162FBEC9379A@btinternet.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004081431560.24811@shell.lmi.net>
 <bd52dffa4b90c77045979e29cf944299.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <471a719d-112c-ad63-d20e-154c960379a6@figureeightbrewing.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004091020410.11474@shell.lmi.net>
 <770778830.234226490.1586453732467.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRg_xc3_QSNaL79h5cP-LhjoQD-xBaEWGQ_L3aUtG=BQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 11:35 AM Norman Jaffe via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I hope that you mean 'hardware porn', not 'hardcore porn'... :)
>

Trivia: for a while in the mid-to-late 1990s, a Google search for "computer
porn" had as the number one result one of my web pages, of that title,
containing images of computers with covers removed. I could see from the
server log that the search was fairly popular, but nevertheless I believe
that most of the people doing the search were not satisfied with the result.

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun Apr 12 13:30:17 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 19:30:17 +0100
Subject: Weird Behaviour of VAXstation 4000 Model 60 Power Switch
Message-ID: <01e801d610f8$6a7a1d90$3f6e58b0$@ntlworld.com>

This machine acts oddly. After powering it off, you usually can't power it
back on again for about 30 seconds or so, it just seems to ignore the power
switch. Similarly, if it has been switched off at the front power switch, it
will switch itself on after maybe a minute of two of being switched off. In
all other respects the machine seems fine. I have not opened up the PSU at
all, just wondering if anyone has ever seen this and might know what the
problem is?

 

Thanks

 

Rob


From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Apr 12 13:47:14 2020
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 11:47:14 -0700
Subject: John Conway
Message-ID: <42e5bef2-a375-9873-9a87-f66b05c0d4c9@bitsavers.org>


https://www.i-programmer.info/news/82-heritage/13614-john-conway-dies-from-coronavirus.html


From mattislind at gmail.com  Sun Apr 12 13:49:16 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 20:49:16 +0200
Subject: Weird Behaviour of VAXstation 4000 Model 60 Power Switch
In-Reply-To: <01e801d610f8$6a7a1d90$3f6e58b0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <01e801d610f8$6a7a1d90$3f6e58b0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82S+hDdBFDUpp+RAB6JCo1W=694JWFw9jeaUuy9LrQyS-Mw@mail.gmail.com>

s?ndag 12 april 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>:

> This machine acts oddly. After powering it off, you usually can't power it
> back on again for about 30 seconds or so, it just seems to ignore the power
> switch. Similarly, if it has been switched off at the front power switch,
> it
> will switch itself on after maybe a minute of two of being switched off. In
> all other respects the machine seems fine. I have not opened up the PSU at
> all, just wondering if anyone has ever seen this and might know what the
> problem is?


Guessing:  Check electrolytic capacitors.

/Mattis


>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Rob
>
>

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Sun Apr 12 14:20:22 2020
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 20:20:22 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: Weird Behaviour of VAXstation 4000 Model 60 Power Switch
In-Reply-To: <01e801d610f8$6a7a1d90$3f6e58b0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <01RJMRN5ZDIQ8X9BZ0@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> This machine acts oddly. After powering it off, you usually can't power it
> back on again for about 30 seconds or so, it just seems to ignore the power
> switch. Similarly, if it has been switched off at the front power switch, it
> will switch itself on after maybe a minute of two of being switched off. In
> all other respects the machine seems fine. I have not opened up the PSU at
> all, just wondering if anyone has ever seen this and might know what the
> problem is?
>

Not quite the same thing but I have noticed that many DEC power supplies
will sulk for a while if their overload trip is triggered.  Switching them
off and on again straight away is not enough to reset them even though the
overload is cleared.  The H7821 seems to need to be switched off for around
16 seconds minimum before it will contemplate coming to life again.  I have
come across similar behaviour with the power supplies in various other small
VAX and Alpha machines but I have not measured the exact time period
involved in any other cases.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From frank at tuccio.net  Sun Apr 12 15:14:10 2020
From: frank at tuccio.net (Frank Tuccio)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 16:14:10 -0400
Subject: RIP John Conway
Message-ID: <000301d61106$eecd5b80$cc681280$@tuccio.net>


https://www.math.princeton.edu/people/john-conway

Creator of "the game of life"

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
cctalk-request at classiccmp.org
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2020 1:00 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 67, Issue 12

Send cctalk mailing list submissions to
	cctalk at classiccmp.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	cctalk-request at classiccmp.org

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	cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Discord (Anders Nelson)
   2. Re: pdp11/05 key? (Liam Proven)
   3. Re: pdp11/05 key? (Eric Smith)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 13:40:39 -0400
From: Anders Nelson <anders.k.nelson at gmail.com>
To: Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org>,  "General Discussion: On-Topic
	and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Discord
Message-ID:
	<CAJ2mpAhK_iwO0J8mD2_9E64LED=CiRKpxmVDB-GXpQuQRpMTMw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Medal of Honor is one of my all-time favorite games.

--
Anders Nelson


On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 4:09 PM jwest--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Perma-invite
>
>
>
> https://discord.gg/CwhYHY2
>
>
>
> From: Derek Newland <derek.newland at gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 7:47 PM
> To: jwest at classiccmp.org; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
> Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Discord
>
>
>
> Hi J, it appears the invite has expired. Any chance to get a fresh one?
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 12:55 PM jwest--- via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote:
>
> I believe I sent the invite to my game channel, NOT the new classiccmp
> server..... please use this instead:
> https://discord.gg/gV6PKYW
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org <mailto:
> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> > On Behalf Of jwest--- via cctalk
> Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 11:26 AM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >
> Subject: Discord
>
> Greetings folks
>
>
>
> The past few years I?ve become fairly focused on a particular old
> 1999/2000 ww2 fps computer game. Of course playing it but I?m also on the
> development team for the game (EA has given up on it, but we still put out
> new releases, maps, patches, etc.). As a result of that, I pretty much
live
> on Discord text/audio chat these days. If you send me an email I will
> eventually see it and may even respond heh. But if you send me anything on
> Discord I?m going to see it immediately. If any of you are on discord, I
am
> ?Todesengel#9624?. Feel free to add me as a friend and that way you can
get
> me usually immediately. I am not leaving the hobby, nor am I saying not to
> email me at the usual address. But a lot of you do talk to me
> semi-frequently and I?m just saying discord will get to me far quicker.
>
>
>
> In addition, mostly as an exercise to see how to do it, I set up a
> ClassicCMP discord server. That Discord server is NOT meant to replace
this
> list, nor should it be taken to signal any less commitment on my part to
> keeping this list running. They are fundamentally different things;
Discord
> is great for real time text chat back and forth. There are also audio and
> video channels if people want to use that to talk verbally or via video.
To
> get on that server, here is a semi-permanent invite:
> https://discord.gg/U8Skw5g  Joining the server gets you to all the other
> folks who may join the classiccmp discord, not just me. Of course, that
> could be zero ? Like I said, I just did it as an exercise, and discord is
> how some of my family and friends stay in touch. But it is there if peeps
> want to use it.
>
>
>
> I?d rather not turn this into a long debate of whether discord is good or
> bad or anything like that. I?m just saying it?s there, and it?s quicker to
> get ahold of me that way at times.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Derek Newland | (828) 234-4731 |  <mailto:derek.newland at gmail.com>
> derek.newland at gmail.com
>
>


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 23:51:29 +0200
From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>
Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: pdp11/05 key?
Message-ID:
	<CAMTenCGrLP8yHOsQMtAzm2+Emq9CfFfFZJJEXZTJmHod9XboAQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 13:55, Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> This might be one of those jokes that if you have to explain it, it looses
the punch ...  but I?ll try,
>
> There used to also be something called a Hong Kong Whore House, similarly
staffed with young Asian women, but they didn?t make core planes there.

I've been to HK and I was never aware of this! Thank you for the
clarification. :-D

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 02:14:12 -0600
From: Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com>
To: Norman Jaffe <turing at shaw.ca>,  "General Discussion: On-Topic and
	Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: pdp11/05 key?
Message-ID:
	<CAFrGgTRg_xc3_QSNaL79h5cP-LhjoQD-xBaEWGQ_L3aUtG=BQw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 11:35 AM Norman Jaffe via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I hope that you mean 'hardware porn', not 'hardcore porn'... :)
>

Trivia: for a while in the mid-to-late 1990s, a Google search for "computer
porn" had as the number one result one of my web pages, of that title,
containing images of computers with covers removed. I could see from the
server log that the search was fairly popular, but nevertheless I believe
that most of the people doing the search were not satisfied with the result.


End of cctalk Digest, Vol 67, Issue 12
**************************************


From rick at rickmurphy.net  Sun Apr 12 10:16:15 2020
From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 11:16:15 -0400
Subject: DEC OS/8 Question (getting an error TOO BIG INIT)
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuesQTZUaGeAZt96rWVgn54vxQ0dTkj03m6h+N2ZjP9m8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBudKrCPoXNUzn1fYTpAdPg2dcuQ9Na6X=1QsfKb_CUEdnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200409220128.GA24994@hugin3>
 <CABGJBuesQTZUaGeAZt96rWVgn54vxQ0dTkj03m6h+N2ZjP9m8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5b025ea1-583e-1d33-ccc7-cf7422234c28@rickmurphy.net>

On 4/9/2020 6:10 PM, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 6:01 PM David Gesswein via cctech <
> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>
> Thank you David.  I was able to load the .SV file instead, but I am glad I
> now know what was needed.  I think in my pdp 11 I have the same issue.
> Bill


For the record, that's a really ancient version of OS/8 Adventure.

The current (2009) is much more stable as it uses the USR to open the 
files, allowing you to move them around without causing ADVENT to crash 
(the save image has the disk locations for the files being used, meaning 
it'll crash if they move around.)

https://www.rickmurphy.net/advent/advbin.rx has a floppy image with 2.4 
binaries.

 ??? -Rick


From frank at tuccio.net  Sun Apr 12 15:28:49 2020
From: frank at tuccio.net (Frank Tuccio)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 16:28:49 -0400
Subject: RIP John H Conway - Creator of the game of life
Message-ID: <000401d61108$fa62ae30$ef280a90$@tuccio.net>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Horton_Conway





From keith at saracom.com  Sun Apr 12 15:37:56 2020
From: keith at saracom.com (keith at saracom.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 16:37:56 -0400
Subject: Core Memory Photo
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1586624400.22419.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1586624400.22419.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <144247da98c3ecd203af36093392bc54@saracom.com>

Here is a link to pictures of core memory from a PDP1145.  

https://devilanse.wordpress.com/2009/11/03/nablopomo-digital-equipment-corporation-pdp-1145/

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sun Apr 12 17:57:31 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 18:57:31 -0400
Subject: Core Memory Photo
In-Reply-To: <144247da98c3ecd203af36093392bc54@saracom.com>
References: <mailman.3.1586624400.22419.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <144247da98c3ecd203af36093392bc54@saracom.com>
Message-ID: <5b82499d-a4c6-e8b4-01f4-fb64110f4e55@alembic.crystel.com>

Ouch. Looks like that core took a serious hit.

On 4/12/2020 4:37 PM, keith--- via cctalk wrote:
> Here is a link to pictures of core memory from a PDP1145.
> https://devilanse.wordpress.com/2009/11/03/nablopomo-digital-equipment-corporation-pdp-1145/ 
> 

From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 09:14:18 2020
From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 10:14:18 -0400
Subject: Computing and communicating in a COVID-19 world
Message-ID: <CAMvyYF9HOCmX50zK6+tEf3PpaBq=4xOq+kTEJM1sA_qBrUcvyA@mail.gmail.com>

The virus-world we are living in has seen Internet usage dramatically
increase world-wide. Thanks to pioneers like Cerf, Kahn, Crocker and
Kleinrock, sounds like a law firm, paved the way for the packet-switch
system Bell & others fought to prevent. I recall the early days of
computing, classic, retro or otherwise defined, that was slow, but had to
do more than now, as the hardware wasn?t so great or more accurately small
and fast. Their were machines that allowed us to communicate at 300 baud
and I was happy!



  Stay safe. Happy computing and communicating.



Murray  ?

From Kevin at rawfeddogs.net  Tue Apr 14 08:49:20 2020
From: Kevin at rawfeddogs.net (Kevin Monceaux)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:49:20 -0500
Subject: Prime Sample System Releases
Message-ID: <20200414134920.GA20214@RawFedDogs.net>

Prime Fans,

I just noticed on comp.sys.prime that I missed a couple of sample system
releases.  I have a process set up to dump messages from some news groups
into my IMAP server for easy reading with my mail client, but I don't have
anything set up to easily reply via the news groups.  Does anyone know
what's new in the recent sample system releases?


-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

From drb at msu.edu  Tue Apr 14 08:56:47 2020
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:56:47 -0400
Subject: Prime Sample System Releases
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:49:20 -0500.)
 <20200414134920.GA20214@RawFedDogs.net>
References: <20200414134920.GA20214@RawFedDogs.net> 
Message-ID: <20200414135647.C4B6B2BF006@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > I just noticed on comp.sys.prime that I missed a couple of sample
 > system releases.  I have a process set up to dump messages from some
 > news groups into my IMAP server for easy reading with my mail client,
 > but I don't have anything set up to easily reply via the news groups.
 > Does anyone know what's new in the recent sample system releases?

V5 adds the source code for PRIMOS 19.2, and the diagnostics programs,
to that image.

V4 corrected ACL problems in the Rev19 and Rev24 images.

V3 removed additional junk, and rebuilt the disk images as 600 MB
drives, split 30/10 heads filesystem/paging. It also included
enhancements to the wrapper scripts: directory independence and the
ability to run the runem script from a terminal.

We learned that the C compiler isn't quite right in at least Rev. 23 of
the samples (and presumably the public emulators, since the samples are
derived from them), so there'll be a v6 coming sometime soon.

De

From keith at saracom.com  Mon Apr 13 12:05:03 2020
From: keith at saracom.com (keith at saracom.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 13:05:03 -0400
Subject: Core Memory Photo
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1586797200.24651.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1586797200.24651.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <c39ba3b5e51779bd29b39938655c5a9c@saracom.com>

"Ouch. Looks like that core took a serious hit." 

Yep it did.  We ran the microscope into it at the lab. Ouch. Someone had
asked for a picture of core memory without the cover so I thought it
would do.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Apr 14 11:53:39 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:53:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Core Memory Photo
In-Reply-To: <c39ba3b5e51779bd29b39938655c5a9c@saracom.com>
References: <mailman.3.1586797200.24651.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <c39ba3b5e51779bd29b39938655c5a9c@saracom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004140952460.8842@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, keith--- via cctalk wrote:
> "Ouch. Looks like that core took a serious hit." 
> Yep it did.  We ran the microscope into it at the lab. Ouch. Someone had
> asked for a picture of core memory without the cover so I thought it
> would do.

It is beautiful!




From Rice43 at btinternet.com  Wed Apr 15 04:09:38 2020
From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 10:09:38 +0100
Subject: Core Memory Photo
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004140952460.8842@shell.lmi.net>
References: <mailman.3.1586797200.24651.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <c39ba3b5e51779bd29b39938655c5a9c@saracom.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004140952460.8842@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <353A7AE4-A147-4A06-9AFD-4A3398FABD1C@btinternet.com>

Was beautiful.

That?s pretty mangled now.

> On Apr 14, 2020, at 5:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, keith--- via cctalk wrote:
>> "Ouch. Looks like that core took a serious hit." Yep it did.  We ran the microscope into it at the lab. Ouch. Someone had
>> asked for a picture of core memory without the cover so I thought it
>> would do.
> 
> It is beautiful!
> 
> 
> 


From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Apr 15 13:34:54 2020
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 13:34:54 -0500
Subject: anybody have MOVIE.BYU?
In-Reply-To: <587906EC.3060701@pico-systems.com>
References: <BN3PR0601MB102549354681D69CB509E37ABA780@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <587906EC.3060701@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <5E9753CE.4010602@pico-systems.com>

On 01/13/2017 10:57 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 01/13/2017 12:46 AM, Randy Dawson wrote:
>> The famous Brigham Young University 3D graphics program, 
>> by Dr. Hank Christensen.
>>
>>
>> I am looking for the fortran source, it should be 7 files:
> OH MY!  I definitely had that at one time - a LONG time 
> ago.  I think it was on one of the DECUS tapes.
> I took a quick look at some of the backups I now have 
> online, and did not find it.  A lot of stuff that I used 
> to have has been junked, as it was presumed to be 
> available form somewhere else.
>
> There seem to be some links under "movie.byu"
>> Any docs related too.
> I think the docs were just text files included with the 
> source code.
Well, I didn't look in the right place.  I just stumbled 
across what I think is the full install of BYUMOVIE
4.3 from December 1982.

If anyone is interested, I could pack it up and send it to 
you. This was for VAX/VMS.  The directory contains 67 files.

Also, I have come across my own version of NASA's Mini-VICAR 
program.  Mini-VICAR was a ghastly hack of their image 
processing library that used pre-allocated files on a 
stripped-down file system to improve performance.  So, your 
files were named something like [100,103].  I took the 
routines that I thought would be useful and modified them to 
use ordinary Files-11 files on VMS, and used the Tparse 
table-driven command line parser.  I should have published 
this on DECUS back in 1982 or so, but never got around to 
it. Mostly, because I never wrote documentation for it.  
(177 files, mixture of macro and fortran.)

Jon



From emu at e-bbes.com  Wed Apr 15 14:18:40 2020
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 15:18:40 -0400
Subject: anybody have MOVIE.BYU?
In-Reply-To: <5E9753CE.4010602@pico-systems.com>
References: <BN3PR0601MB102549354681D69CB509E37ABA780@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <587906EC.3060701@pico-systems.com> <5E9753CE.4010602@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <a1f6224a-c8ac-01a7-9e1c-7e4ac84f8ba2@e-bbes.com>

On 2020-04-15 14:34, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

> Well, I didn't look in the right place.? I just stumbled across what I
> think is the full install of BYUMOVIE
> 4.3 from December 1982.
> 
> If anyone is interested, I could pack it up and send it to you. This was
> for VAX/VMS.? The directory contains 67 files.


SURE, I would be very interested!

Thanks!

From barto at kdbarto.org  Wed Apr 15 18:13:13 2020
From: barto at kdbarto.org (David Barto)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 16:13:13 -0700
Subject: Old X11/Xt/Motif books
Message-ID: <C2605CD4-AB2B-46F4-B8C6-B8CC84502DFE@kdbarto.org>

Going through old books. If no one wants these then they go to the tip.

Willing to deliver locally, split shipping over a distance.

	David

O?Reilly
Volume 4 X Toolkit Intrinsics for version 11
Volume 5 X Toolkit Intrinsics for X11 R4 and R5

Volume 4 X Toolkit Intrinsics (Motif Edition) For OSF/Motif 1.2
Volume 6A Motif Programming Manual for OSF/Motif 1.2
Volume 6B Motif Reference Manual For Motif 2.1

OSF Published
OSF/Motif Programmer?s Reference Release 1.2
OSF/Motif Programmer?s Guide Release 1.2
OSF/Motif Style Guide Release 1.2

By Eric F. Johnson/Kevin Reichard
X Window Applications Programming
Advanced X Window Applications Programming
Advanced X Window Applications Programming Second Edition (Missing CD)
Power Programming Motif Second Edition (1.2)

From keith at saracom.com  Wed Apr 15 18:22:05 2020
From: keith at saracom.com (keith at saracom.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 19:22:05 -0400
Subject: Core Memory Photo
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1586970000.4360.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1586970000.4360.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <265d477a9fbb1b38e74a27897b50bcd5@saracom.com>

I have three others with the cover still on :)  I want to make a clear
plexiglass cover for them. 

Also have the driver boards. 

On 2020-04-15 13:00, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote:

> Send cctech mailing list submissions to
> cctech at classiccmp.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> cctech-request at classiccmp.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> cctech-owner at classiccmp.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..."
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
> 1. Re: Core Memory Photo (keith at saracom.com)
> 2. Re: Core Memory Photo (Fred Cisin)
> 3. Re: Core Memory Photo (Joshua Rice)
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 13:05:03 -0400
> From: keith at saracom.com
> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Core Memory Photo
> Message-ID: <c39ba3b5e51779bd29b39938655c5a9c at saracom.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> 
> "Ouch. Looks like that core took a serious hit." 
> 
> Yep it did.  We ran the microscope into it at the lab. Ouch. Someone had
> asked for a picture of core memory without the cover so I thought it
> would do.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:53:39 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Core Memory Photo
> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004140952460.8842 at shell.lmi.net>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> 
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, keith--- via cctalk wrote: 
> 
>> "Ouch. Looks like that core took a serious hit." 
>> Yep it did.  We ran the microscope into it at the lab. Ouch. Someone had
>> asked for a picture of core memory without the cover so I thought it
>> would do.
> 
> It is beautiful!
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 10:09:38 +0100
> From: Joshua Rice <Rice43 at btinternet.com>
> To: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>, "General Discussion: On-Topic and
> Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Core Memory Photo
> Message-ID: <353A7AE4-A147-4A06-9AFD-4A3398FABD1C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=utf-8
> 
> Was beautiful.
> 
> That?s pretty mangled now.
> 
> On Apr 14, 2020, at 5:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, keith--- via cctalk wrote: "Ouch. Looks like that core took a serious hit." Yep it did.  We ran the microscope into it at the lab. Ouch. Someone had
> asked for a picture of core memory without the cover so I thought it
> would do. 
> It is beautiful!

End of cctech Digest, Vol 67, Issue 15
**************************************

From aperry at snowmoose.com  Wed Apr 15 20:51:47 2020
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 18:51:47 -0700
Subject: Sun 3 and memory
Message-ID: <dc38cb7b-5a95-e79a-fc83-7973720c8b4c@snowmoose.com>


Hi everyone,

Update on the barn-find Sun 3/260 that I have been restoring and was 
supposed to exhibit at VCF PNW until the show was cancelled for some odd 
reason. The system had been failing to get through self-test because, in 
the memory tests, bit 13 was always set, whether intended or not.

I borrowed a couple Sun 501-1102 boards (8M ECC memory for VME) and one 
of them passes the self-tests and, if I had a bootable device, the 
system is now ready to try that.

But my question here is about Sun 3 memory.

Sun part 501-1102 is described as Sun 3/2xx, 3/4xx, and 4/2xx memory 
(The Sun System Handbook does not list it as 3/4xx memory). The memory 
board that worked is tagged 501-1102 and was described as memory to go 
along with a Sun 3/160 CPU board. I was loaned both boards in case the 
problem was the backplane. But the System Handbook does not list that 
memory as an option for that CPU.

Does anyone here know whether a 501-1102 memory board be used with a 
3/160 CPU?

Does anyone here know whether Sun 3/260 schematics are available 
anywhere like the 3/160 and 3/60 ones are? I would like to give 
repairing the memory board that came with the 260 a shot, since that is 
a better story when I exhibit it and the memory board that I have that 
works now is a loaner.

Finally, will a SD2SCSI (configured as 2 Sun0424 drives), Archive 150M 
QIC drive, or CD-ROM drive work on the 3/260 if I connect them up to the 
SCSI cable for the QIC-24 drive that the system came with?

alan

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Thu Apr 16 01:19:13 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 07:19:13 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTDOrbB_KyYOJ1u2X2Ja+sXp5mR1kx1ZndWHLaGyj6MpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+EKPkjY8JCjKh2Oe5962WhiFw-D3nEWYbwO1Pa2rNf3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ca01d60dec$21733690$6459a3b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <619cd7fe-c8a0-4420-179a-21665bef45ef@9track.net>
 <013d01d60e9f$e6d5d290$b48177b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <013e01d60ea5$c7162bc0$55428340$@ntlworld.com>
 <017901d60f3e$8e64d490$ab2e7db0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAFrGgTTDOrbB_KyYOJ1u2X2Ja+sXp5mR1kx1ZndWHLaGyj6MpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000901d613b6$f31a6fe0$d94f4fa0$@ntlworld.com>

Thanks Eric, I had a private reply that said pretty much the same thing.

 

Last night I replaced the shorted diode and another electrolytic capacitor and the PSU started up on the bench, powering a load board and an RD53 hard disk. Ripple was good except on the -9V output, but that output doesn?t seem to have any capacitors after the final transformer, so I think it is OK.

 

I need to replace a few marginal capacitors on the video module now, while I have the machine in bits. Then I will put it all back together to see that it still works. I have a lingering worry that the failed diode was on the +28V supply to the video module and that there might be a fault on the video module, but it doesn?t appear to present a short circuit, so I am hopeful.

 

I will do a blog post once it is all back up and running.

 

Thanks

 

Rob

 

 

From: Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> 
Sent: 16 April 2020 00:05
To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU

 

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 10:14 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote:

D12 is an MBR3045PT. It tests correctly as a common cathode diode network. However, the forward voltage seems to be 0.19V. The datasheet (https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/53622/FAIRCHILD/MBR3045PT.html) would suggest it should be 0.76V at room temperature. I can see no physical damage to it though.

 

Even when they are good, the forward drop of a diode can be FAR lower than the typical forward drop (around 0.7 for normal silicon diodes) if you're putting significantly less that the rated current through it. 0.19V forward drop is only slightly lower than typical characteristic at e.g. 10mA current. See figure 3. I've seen more than enough variation of diodes from typical curves for that alone to convince me that the diode is bad (though obviously it may be).

 

The real test is how much it conducts in reverse. All diodes will pass a small amount of reverse current. This one shouldn't pass more than 1 mA in the reverse direction at room temperature, even with near the rated reverse voltage (45V) applied.

 


From holm at freibergnet.de  Thu Apr 16 03:12:15 2020
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 10:12:15 +0200
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <000901d613b6$f31a6fe0$d94f4fa0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+EKPkjY8JCjKh2Oe5962WhiFw-D3nEWYbwO1Pa2rNf3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ca01d60dec$21733690$6459a3b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <619cd7fe-c8a0-4420-179a-21665bef45ef@9track.net>
 <013d01d60e9f$e6d5d290$b48177b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <013e01d60ea5$c7162bc0$55428340$@ntlworld.com>
 <017901d60f3e$8e64d490$ab2e7db0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAFrGgTTDOrbB_KyYOJ1u2X2Ja+sXp5mR1kx1ZndWHLaGyj6MpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000901d613b6$f31a6fe0$d94f4fa0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <20200416081215.GA3327@beast.freibergnet.de>

Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:

> Thanks Eric, I had a private reply that said pretty much the same thing.
> 
>  
> 
> Last night I replaced the shorted diode and another electrolytic capacitor and the PSU started up on the bench, powering a load board and an RD53 hard disk. Ripple was good except on the -9V output, but that output doesn?t seem to have any capacitors after the final transformer, so I think it is OK.
> 
>  
> 
> I need to replace a few marginal capacitors on the video module now, while I have the machine in bits. Then I will put it all back together to see that it still works. I have a lingering worry that the failed diode was on the +28V supply to the video module and that there might be a fault on the video module, but it doesn?t appear to present a short circuit, so I am hopeful.
> 
>  
> 
> I will do a blog post once it is all back up and running.
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks
> 
>  
> 
> Rob
> 

Congratulations Rob, you made it.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Apr 16 08:41:23 2020
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 06:41:23 -0700
Subject: Sun 3 and memory
In-Reply-To: <dc38cb7b-5a95-e79a-fc83-7973720c8b4c@snowmoose.com>
References: <dc38cb7b-5a95-e79a-fc83-7973720c8b4c@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <1536e360-ebec-6ab2-a190-5481818e5417@bitsavers.org>

On 4/15/20 6:51 PM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote:

> Does anyone here know whether a 501-1102 memory board be used with a 3/160 CPU?

nope, the P2 buses and memory subsystems are very different between the 1xx and 2xx



From bobsmithofd at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 12:12:37 2020
From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 13:12:37 -0400
Subject: Looking for a document regarding PDP8
Message-ID: <CAHtNYbXMDf4b8ZDHoW-_NwONHwkRXwU+ZPn0XZhBPPppEFydMA@mail.gmail.com>

I have posed this question to the 8lovers list, and folks seemed to
misunderstand. So let me try here.

I believe sometime in the late 70s, maybe as late as 1980, a prof
associated with UMass wrote a paper describing an extension of the
PDP8 called 8/X or 8X.
THIS IS NOT the Pre Nova/DG machine but a completely different concept.
THis is not the FPGA pdp8 implmetaton that also has an X in the name.

I believe, my memory is fuzzy, that it was a prof nnmed Stone or
Stoner (perhaps Harold S) who lead the effort and had his name on the
paper.

My fuzzy recollection was this was PDP8 with a Cache, an extension of
the instruction set, maybe to 24bits, and full compatibility with
8/e-8/a. I recall the spec citing a 10mhz (100NS) cycle time. some
sort of start up setting that would make it 8 mode or X mode on start
up, don't recall if it could switch modes while running.

I had a copy of the papers some where and it is misplaced hiding on
one of my computers and I am bout to pull out my BigMac that might
have the data in it.

THanks for any hints as to the online location,
Again, this is NOT the pdpX concept that led to the DG or the FPGA
system or the spartan 3 based system, it is just a concept paper.
Thanks
bob

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Apr 16 13:12:47 2020
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 11:12:47 -0700
Subject: Looking for a document regarding PDP8
In-Reply-To: <CAHtNYbXMDf4b8ZDHoW-_NwONHwkRXwU+ZPn0XZhBPPppEFydMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHtNYbXMDf4b8ZDHoW-_NwONHwkRXwU+ZPn0XZhBPPppEFydMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <80bfb3d3-131d-1ff2-226b-72c6c9d0a708@bitsavers.org>

On 4/16/20 10:12 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote:
> I am bout to pull out my BigMac that might
> have the data in it.

As in the Apple 68020 Rich Page computer?
If so, I'd REALLY like to get a copy of the disk image
to use on the BigMac that the museum has.

https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102747603



From aperry at snowmoose.com  Thu Apr 16 10:52:49 2020
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 08:52:49 -0700
Subject: Scanning incomplete and updated documents
Message-ID: <2d3fe85f-1d08-0117-4a3e-17df69998a45@snowmoose.com>


I recently received a bunch of hardware/software documents to scan. I am 
only roughly familiar with the systems covered by the docs. I have 
encountered a couple situations that I would like guidance on.

1. One document is a software installation manual in a loose leaf binder 
with other documents. It has a title page, tables of contents, etc., 
several chapters, and then it gets interesting. It has several appendix 
sections (starting at A), an index, then more appendix sections 
(starting at A as well), and then another index. The document title and 
its font match of the second set of appendix sections and second index 
matches the table of contents and chapters. The first set of appendix 
sections and index are a little different. The topics covered in the 
sets of appendix sections are not the same.

Should I create two different pdfs with different appendix sections or 
create a single pdf with both sets?

2. One document is missing the title page and table of contents. Should 
the pdf just be what I have or should I create those pages for the pdf?

Thanks,

alan

From rtomek at ceti.pl  Thu Apr 16 15:06:43 2020
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 22:06:43 +0200
Subject: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CALWfZAJKEMJhtNQ8cGEsGVT8wQvb8cUe-c-Wv6rWMYd+MgPWZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004042124430.7789@shell.lmi.net>
 <f8c72661220049fbbde40d8f8c7064c414d4630c.camel@agj.net>
 <0369CF39-A1D6-4520-9EF9-1D632A4DD0DD@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfprV33EZKxhz6F3gHHjwu9z6rJKSSxEA1EvcJVjOeKR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051214100.31022@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.2004051252070.24962@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004051314390.31022@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <20200416200642.GA6269@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Sun, Apr 05, 2020 at 01:20:09PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> well, close.
> His BASIC quote is:
> "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students
> that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers
> they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
> 
> Here is one copy of his 1975 paper, "How Do We Tell Truths That
> Might Hurt":
> https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html
> 
> I don't know what language(s), if any, that he liked.

Perhaps this quote will help:

   (...) The Burroughs ALGOL compiler was very fast ? this impressed
   the Dutch scientist Edsger Dijkstra when he submitted a program to
   be compiled at the B5000 Pasadena plant. His deck of cards was
   compiled almost immediately and he immediately wanted several
   machines for his university, Eindhoven University of Technology in
   the Netherlands. The compiler was fast for several reasons, but the
   primary reason was that it was a one-pass compiler. Early computers
   did not have enough memory to store the source code, so compilers
   (and even assemblers) usually needed to read the source code more
   than once. The Burroughs ALGOL syntax, unlike the official
   language, requires that each variable (or other object) be declared
   before it is used, so it is feasible to write an ALGOL compiler
   that reads the data only once. This concept has profound
   theoretical implications, but it also permits very fast
   compiling. Burroughs large systems could compile as fast as they
   could read the source code from the punched cards, and they had the
   fastest card readers in the industry.

(from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_large_systems )

Whatever he liked, it looks that he optimised for speed of
execution.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 15 06:58:15 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 07:58:15 -0400
Subject: Prime 50-Series emulator announcement
In-Reply-To: <20200324172556.0AB622B14E4@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
References: <MWHPR22MB0878006F70580F7A78BC58BDEDF10@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <20200316182952.0429225C6FC@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200316180149.GA6369@RawFedDogs.net>
 <CAHfSdrX6yTkND3dH3vRLsDXGY_8vTMTqEn-GtP6GsJE3D9J3ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200313153644.A702A25B4CE@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200318235135.E900125D928@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20200324172556.0AB622B14E4@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB08780CB4F6DC779670B2FF96EDDB0@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>


Dennis,
   This is primarily fo0r you but I included the group as others may
also be interested.

A few questions.

Does the emulator do  a particular 50-Series machine or is
it just a generic conglomeration of all possible hardware?

Has any benchmarking been done to determine how it compares
to real Prime Systems?

And lastly, from a practical sense.  Are the machines all
networked together and rely on each other for anything?
Should I be starting all of them at the same time instead
of my current practice of only running one at a time?

Definitely having fun with this.  Just wish more of the
third party stuff had survived (like eDv the editor), but
then, why would we expect Prime to have fared better than
any of the other classic systems.

bill



From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Wed Apr 15 19:23:50 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 20:23:50 -0400
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
Message-ID: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>

Wonderful: A few weeks ago I forgot to turn off my VT52 and left it 
running for a day or two. Now the screen is filled with snow and it 
looks like the text is all over the place horozontally.

Any tips or thoughts on where to start looking to fix? The keyboard 
seems to be working as does the RS232 input (the snow on the screen 
changes when the pdp11 talks to it)

Thanks!
Chris

From Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk  Wed Apr 15 16:20:37 2020
From: Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk (Aaron Jackson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 21:20:37 +0000
Subject: DEC VR290 Colour Monitor, free to good home (UK)
Message-ID: <91bk12g30pm.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk>

I have a DEC VR290 colour monitor for use with VAXstations. It was
working fine when I last powered it on (2-3 years ago), hooked up to a
3100 M76.

It's free to a good home (preferably a home with a VAX), absolutely
collection only. I'm in Nottingham UK. It's too heavy and large to ship
safely.

I have two video cables which are intended for use with it. I think they
are both for VAXstations of some kind, one might be for
DECstation. You've welcome to have them both with the monitor.

Please let me know if you are interested. If in the unlikely event there
is more than one person interested, it'll be mostly whoever picks it up
first but I will prioritise those who actually do have a suitable VAX to
use it with.

Also, if there are any documentation hoarders I have an entire book case
of VAX/VMS manuals (thick red binders). Full list is here, let me know
if you want any. aaronsplace dot co dot uk / dec-manuals.html

Cheers,
Aaron


This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
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Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not
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From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Apr 15 14:07:16 2020
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 12:07:16 -0700
Subject: anybody have MOVIE.BYU?
In-Reply-To: <5E9753CE.4010602@pico-systems.com>
References: <BN3PR0601MB102549354681D69CB509E37ABA780@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <587906EC.3060701@pico-systems.com> <5E9753CE.4010602@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <cae348fc-49e1-1c32-1027-b34a2833e42a@bitsavers.org>

On 4/15/20 11:34 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

> If anyone is interested, I could pack it up and send it to you. This was for VAX/VMS.? The directory contains 67 files.
> 

I'd like the files you have.
I have a partial copy of mini-movie



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed Apr 15 11:57:28 2020
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 18:57:28 +0200
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>
Message-ID: <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Tue, Apr 07, 2020 at 02:11:25PM -0500, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> 
> And of course there is this :-)
> http://www.keil.com/cobolad.pdf

Oh goad. Have they ported it to Arduino?

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 18:05:07 2020
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 17:05:07 -0600
Subject: VAXmate PSU
In-Reply-To: <017901d60f3e$8e64d490$ab2e7db0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJCUTSRBSH5+gj=Fa8wNsPx=V6_eyQw8LdmJA+1=b6c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+mqeAn_XHngOn7sOYgpiAXp2AboMem=b_V7wZPwXwfiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com>
 <022601d60b4a$e7c39b90$b74ad2b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <D152A68E-E479-4BDA-A82B-D206D94F7124@shaw.ca>
 <024301d60b94$a67d1950$f3774bf0$@ntlworld.com>
 <504B41B5-8516-4F77-B58E-9C07D5977101@shaw.ca>
 <000001d60bda$5458f360$fd0ada20$@ntlworld.com>
 <AE9DEEAA-8403-4F0C-A86E-3B903172E8DE@shaw.ca>
 <006101d60d2c$b95fe540$2c1fafc0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82S+EKPkjY8JCjKh2Oe5962WhiFw-D3nEWYbwO1Pa2rNf3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ca01d60dec$21733690$6459a3b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <619cd7fe-c8a0-4420-179a-21665bef45ef@9track.net>
 <013d01d60e9f$e6d5d290$b48177b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <013e01d60ea5$c7162bc0$55428340$@ntlworld.com>
 <017901d60f3e$8e64d490$ab2e7db0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTDOrbB_KyYOJ1u2X2Ja+sXp5mR1kx1ZndWHLaGyj6MpQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 10:14 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> D12 is an MBR3045PT. It tests correctly as a common cathode diode network.
> However, the forward voltage seems to be 0.19V. The datasheet (
> https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/53622/FAIRCHILD/MBR3045PT.html)
> would suggest it should be 0.76V at room temperature. I can see no physical
> damage to it though.
>

Even when they are good, the forward drop of a diode can be FAR lower than
the typical forward drop (around 0.7 for normal silicon diodes) if you're
putting significantly less that the rated current through it. 0.19V forward
drop is only slightly lower than typical characteristic at e.g. 10mA
current. See figure 3. I've seen more than enough variation of diodes from
typical curves for that alone to convince me that the diode is bad (though
obviously it may be).

The real test is how much it conducts in reverse. All diodes will pass a
small amount of reverse current. This one shouldn't pass more than 1 mA in
the reverse direction at room temperature, even with near the rated reverse
voltage (45V) applied.

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 17:02:46 2020
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 17:02:46 -0500
Subject: Core Memory Photo
In-Reply-To: <265d477a9fbb1b38e74a27897b50bcd5@saracom.com>
References: <mailman.3.1586970000.4360.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <265d477a9fbb1b38e74a27897b50bcd5@saracom.com>
Message-ID: <bb9694f0-bf9b-0709-a4e3-256e27472753@gmail.com>

On 4/15/20 6:22 PM, keith--- via cctalk wrote:
> I have three others with the cover still on :)? I want to make a clear
> plexiglass cover for them.

Just for fun, this is what I have from a Lockheed MAC-16 machine:

http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/catcore.jpg

... the white line is a cat hair, just to give an idea of scale. It's 
incredibly fine stuff (and if I remember right this board was from 1970; I 
didn't think core got that compact until more toward the end of the decade, 
right at the tail end of core's era, when semiconductor RAM had become 
commonplace).

*somewhere* I have a microscope, so might try photographing through that at 
some point; this was the best I could do with a loupe held over my camera's 
lens.

I've wondered about doing the plexiglass thing too, just for display 
purposes (the planes are damaged on both boards that I have, and I'm not 
sure if anyone has an intact MAC-16 anywhere anyway), but then I got to 
wondering what the point was given that it needs magnification to really 
see anything anyway :-)

cheers

Jules

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Apr 16 18:18:47 2020
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 18:18:47 -0500
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <5E98E7D7.50803@pico-systems.com>

On 04/15/2020 07:23 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Wonderful: A few weeks ago I forgot to turn off my VT52 
> and left it running for a day or two. Now the screen is 
> filled with snow and it looks like the text is all over 
> the place horozontally.
>
> Any tips or thoughts on where to start looking to fix? The 
> keyboard seems to be working as does the RS232 input (the 
> snow on the screen changes when the pdp11 talks to it)
>
Unseat and replug all connectors for a first start.  Your 
description sounds like the monitor may not be getting sync 
from the display generator board.

Jon

From tony.aiuto at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 19:53:36 2020
From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 20:53:36 -0400
Subject: Core Memory Photo
In-Reply-To: <bb9694f0-bf9b-0709-a4e3-256e27472753@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1586970000.4360.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <265d477a9fbb1b38e74a27897b50bcd5@saracom.com>
 <bb9694f0-bf9b-0709-a4e3-256e27472753@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKGyVsWtzXJCMBvOqGgOymEY38KY+MNsU96aUqOcv1q2y7HWmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 6:02 PM Jules Richardson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 4/15/20 6:22 PM, keith--- via cctalk wrote:
> > I have three others with the cover still on :)  I want to make a clear
> > plexiglass cover for them.
>
> Just for fun, this is what I have from a Lockheed MAC-16 machine:
>
> http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/catcore.jpg
>
> ... the white line is a cat hair, just to give an idea of scale. It's
> incredibly fine stuff (and if I remember right this board was from 1970; I
> didn't think core got that compact until more toward the end of the
> decade,
> right at the tail end of core's era, when semiconductor RAM had become
> commonplace).
>
> *somewhere* I have a microscope, so might try photographing through that
> at
> some point; this was the best I could do with a loupe held over my
> camera's
> lens.
>

 I'm now tempted to try with the macro adapter for my good camera and see
how if I can improve on this one

https://goo.gl/photos/bV2JGbnDUH4uU7CDA

and this fun bit of core ROM

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WljReTaxbIIyXNgu1



> I've wondered about doing the plexiglass thing too, just for display
> purposes (the planes are damaged on both boards that I have, and I'm not
> sure if anyone has an intact MAC-16 anywhere anyway), but then I got to
> wondering what the point was given that it needs magnification to really
> see anything anyway :-)
>

Plexiglass works well for small planes. I have one which was about 5"x5".
I had a local plastic stop cut me 2 7"x7"x1/5" squares, plus 1 7x7x1/8
with a 5x5 square cut in the center.  Then I made a sandwich of the 3,
with the plane in the cutout. I drilled a hole in each corner to put a bolt
through it. Short bolts on the top, but extra long ones on the bottom, so
I could use it as a stand.

I would send a picture, but it is in my office, which I have been locked
out of for a month.



> cheers
>
> Jules
>

From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Thu Apr 16 20:05:42 2020
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 20:05:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>
 <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <212612050.488269.1587085542249@email.ionos.com>

> [...]> And of course there is this :-)http://www.keil.com/cobolad.pdfOh goad. Have they ported it to Arduino?

Well, the ad was fake.  Ran in the April issue of some magazines.  Apparently they did get calls for orders, though.
http://www.ganssle.com/rants/on-languages.html


Unfortunately, this one seems to be real.

http://nibblestew.blogspot.com/2016/06/running-cobol-on-arduino-using-meson.html


Will

From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Thu Apr 16 20:05:42 2020
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 20:05:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>
 <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <212612050.488269.1587085542249@email.ionos.com>

> [...]> And of course there is this :-)http://www.keil.com/cobolad.pdfOh goad. Have they ported it to Arduino?

Well, the ad was fake.  Ran in the April issue of some magazines.  Apparently they did get calls for orders, though.
http://www.ganssle.com/rants/on-languages.html


Unfortunately, this one seems to be real.

http://nibblestew.blogspot.com/2016/06/running-cobol-on-arduino-using-meson.html


Will

From bobsmithofd at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 20:17:23 2020
From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 21:17:23 -0400
Subject: Looking for a document regarding PDP8
In-Reply-To: <80bfb3d3-131d-1ff2-226b-72c6c9d0a708@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAHtNYbXMDf4b8ZDHoW-_NwONHwkRXwU+ZPn0XZhBPPppEFydMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <80bfb3d3-131d-1ff2-226b-72c6c9d0a708@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAHtNYbXXh0-qj6+UQtvav0Ypypsn3OkiJJcm=QMu2ckcwsL1Vw@mail.gmail.com>

Nice!
BUT  no my BigMac is a Mac Pro 1,1 tweaked with TB of disk with my old
files on it.
I call it BigMac cause it is about the same weight as the full chassis
PDP8/e I had at DEC that I lugged from one spot to another.
I did power it up and ran a number of searches, two more machines and
8 more drives to search.
Thanks Al! Good Laugh!
bb

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 3:30 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On 4/16/20 10:12 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote:
> > I am bout to pull out my BigMac that might
> > have the data in it.
>
> As in the Apple 68020 Rich Page computer?
> If so, I'd REALLY like to get a copy of the disk image
> to use on the BigMac that the museum has.
>
> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102747603
>
>

From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 16 20:24:59 2020
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 01:24:59 +0000
Subject: anybody have MOVIE.BYU?
In-Reply-To: <cae348fc-49e1-1c32-1027-b34a2833e42a@bitsavers.org>
References: <BN3PR0601MB102549354681D69CB509E37ABA780@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <587906EC.3060701@pico-systems.com>
 <5E9753CE.4010602@pico-systems.com>,
 <cae348fc-49e1-1c32-1027-b34a2833e42a@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <BYAPR06MB43596E0B6CE276BD537C87EDBAD90@BYAPR06MB4359.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

A couple other ccmp guys, Emanuel Steibler and Doug Taylor and I have been passing around what I have. Doug got it working under linux.

Where is the best place to put this?

I also have BYU's follow up CQUEL, greatly expanded, with X11 GUI.

Randy


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 12:07 PM
To: Jon Elson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: anybody have MOVIE.BYU?

On 4/15/20 11:34 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

> If anyone is interested, I could pack it up and send it to you. This was for VAX/VMS.  The directory contains 67 files.
>

I'd like the files you have.
I have a partial copy of mini-movie



From mark.tapley at swri.org  Thu Apr 16 17:00:17 2020
From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 22:00:17 +0000
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>
 <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <9FB2CD9C-BBED-48E7-9375-1C9A9B6CA7DF@swri.edu>

> On Apr 15, 2020, at 11:57 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
> 
> On Tue, Apr 07, 2020 at 02:11:25PM -0500, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote:
> [...]
>> 
>> And of course there is this :-)
>> http://www.keil.com/cobolad.pdf
> 
> Oh goad. Have they ported it to Arduino?
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola

Tomasz, forgive me but I have to ask. You did note the date on which that announcement appeared, right?


From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Apr 16 18:21:06 2020
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 18:21:06 -0500
Subject: anybody have MOVIE.BYU?
In-Reply-To: <cae348fc-49e1-1c32-1027-b34a2833e42a@bitsavers.org>
References: <BN3PR0601MB102549354681D69CB509E37ABA780@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <587906EC.3060701@pico-systems.com> <5E9753CE.4010602@pico-systems.com>
 <cae348fc-49e1-1c32-1027-b34a2833e42a@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <5E98E862.1000102@pico-systems.com>

On 04/15/2020 02:07 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/15/20 11:34 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>
>> If anyone is interested, I could pack it up and send it 
>> to you. This was for VAX/VMS.  The directory contains 67 
>> files.
>>
>
> I'd like the files you have.
> I have a partial copy of mini-movie
>
>
>


From jdbryan at acm.org  Thu Apr 16 23:32:14 2020
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 00:32:14 -0400
Subject: Scanning incomplete and updated documents
In-Reply-To: <2d3fe85f-1d08-0117-4a3e-17df69998a45@snowmoose.com>
References: <2d3fe85f-1d08-0117-4a3e-17df69998a45@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <E1jPIfo-0005xL-4c@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 8:52, Alan Perry via cctech wrote:

> 1. One document is a software installation manual in a loose leaf
> binder with other documents. It has a title page, tables of contents,
> etc., several chapters, and then it gets interesting. It has several
> appendix sections (starting at A), an index, then more appendix
> sections (starting at A as well), and then another index. The document
> title and its font match of the second set of appendix sections and
> second index matches the table of contents and chapters. 

I've scanned roughly 450 manuals.  What you describe might be the result of 
a manual update.  Some updates include replacement pages, with the intent 
that the replaced pages are discarded.  I've encountered manuals, though, 
where both the old and new pages were kept, perhaps to retain a record of 
the changes.


> Should I create two different pdfs with different appendix sections or 
> create a single pdf with both sets?

Where both old and new pages were present, and where they could be 
differentiated clearly, I made a separate PDF for each manual printing.  
That is, I'd have two PDFs with the same part number with different print 
dates -- one containing the old (original) pages, and the other containing 
the new (replacement) pages.  See, for example:

  /pdf/hp/64000/hardware/64161-90901_Jan-1984.pdf
  /pdf/hp/64000/hardware/64161-90901_May-1984.pdf

and the update ("Manual Change Sheet"):

  /pdf/hp/64000/hardware/64161-90901-MCS_May-1984.pdf

...from which the later manual was created at Bitsavers.


> 2. One document is missing the title page and table of contents.
> Should the pdf just be what I have or should I create those pages for
> the pdf? 

If you know how the title page and TOC should appear, I would add them.  If 
you wish, you could add a note, such as "(Reconstructed)", as a page footer 
on the added pages.  I've reconstructed missing front and back cover pages 
where the manual is part of a family of manuals that all share the same 
basic cover and title page designs.

I think PDFs, ideally, should allow one to reprint an extinct manual in its 
entirety.  So I include the blank pages, covers, inserts, etc. from the 
original when I make mine.


> Thanks, 

You're welcome.

                                      -- Dave


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri Apr 17 01:19:23 2020
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:19:23 +0200
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <9FB2CD9C-BBED-48E7-9375-1C9A9B6CA7DF@swri.edu>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>
 <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <9FB2CD9C-BBED-48E7-9375-1C9A9B6CA7DF@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <20200417061923.GB6269@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:00:17PM +0000, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> Tomasz, forgive me but I have to ask. You did note the date on which
> that announcement appeared, right?

Yeah. I do not have to look at it again to tell you it was dated April
1st 2005 :-). But it is ok you asked, I could have overlooked it in a
hurry. But, well, Arduinos with 512 bytes or ram, just think of it,
putting Cobol on it, what an achievement would it be...

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Fri Apr 17 01:21:45 2020
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 23:21:45 -0700
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CD137525-935F-4C48-8BB9-223696821825@shaw.ca>


On 2020-Apr-15, at 5:23 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

> Wonderful: A few weeks ago I forgot to turn off my VT52 and left it running for a day or two. Now the screen is filled with snow and it looks like the text is all over the place horozontally.
> 
> Any tips or thoughts on where to start looking to fix? The keyboard seems to be working as does the RS232 input (the snow on the screen changes when the pdp11 talks to it)


Try turning the contrast or brightness up till the black level starts becoming illuminated. Is the raster (the screen character field / framing rectangle) stable?

If no rectangle or stable display field becomes apparent then as Jon suggests it may be loss of sync, probably horizontal, and likely to be in the monitor circuitry.

(Any affect from twiddling the H or V sync controls?)

If the raster is stable then it might be something in the character generation pipeline (the character generator or the row pixel serializer), or in the monitor video amp.

("snow" as a description leaves for a range of possible interpretations.)

There's always checking power supply levels to start with. In addition to the +5, there's probably a +/-12 or -5 for the character generator.


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri Apr 17 01:24:38 2020
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:24:38 +0200
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <212612050.488269.1587085542249@email.ionos.com>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>
 <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <212612050.488269.1587085542249@email.ionos.com>
Message-ID: <20200417062438.GC6269@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 08:05:42PM -0500, wrcooke at wrcooke.net wrote:
> > [...]> And of course there is this :-)http://www.keil.com/cobolad.pdfOh goad. Have they ported it to Arduino?
> 
> Well, the ad was fake.  Ran in the April issue of some magazines.
> Apparently they did get calls for orders, though.
> http://www.ganssle.com/rants/on-languages.html

Man, I know it :-)

> Unfortunately, this one seems to be real.
> 
> http://nibblestew.blogspot.com/2016/06/running-cobol-on-arduino-using-meson.html

Yay! But I guess it should be called a crosscompiler? Unless they can
run in under some kind of monitor on the Arduino board...

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Fri Apr 17 02:12:10 2020
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 01:12:10 -0600
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <20200417061923.GB6269@tau1.ceti.pl>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>
 <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <9FB2CD9C-BBED-48E7-9375-1C9A9B6CA7DF@swri.edu>
 <20200417061923.GB6269@tau1.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <6e3645d8-478f-6055-d44b-636a02942b11@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 4/17/2020 12:19 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:00:17PM +0000, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote:
> [...]
>> Tomasz, forgive me but I have to ask. You did note the date on which
>> that announcement appeared, right?
> 
> Yeah. I do not have to look at it again to tell you it was dated April
> 1st 2005 :-). But it is ok you asked, I could have overlooked it in a
> hurry. But, well, Arduinos with 512 bytes or ram, just think of it,
> putting Cobol on it, what an achievement would it be...
> 
But Cobol is just not the same with out some spinning tape drives.
Ben.

From nico at farumdata.dk  Fri Apr 17 02:40:23 2020
From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:40:23 +0200
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <6e3645d8-478f-6055-d44b-636a02942b11@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>
 <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <9FB2CD9C-BBED-48E7-9375-1C9A9B6CA7DF@swri.edu>
 <20200417061923.GB6269@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <6e3645d8-478f-6055-d44b-636a02942b11@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <3329917c-8f5d-8aee-b152-581fb5e18d61@farumdata.dk>

On 2020-04-17 09:12, ben via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/17/2020 12:19 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:00:17PM +0000, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk 
>> wrote:
>> [...]
>>> Tomasz, forgive me but I have to ask. You did note the date on which
>>> that announcement appeared, right?
>>
>> Yeah. I do not have to look at it again to tell you it was dated April
>> 1st 2005 :-). But it is ok you asked, I could have overlooked it in a
>> hurry. But, well, Arduinos with 512 bytes or ram, just think of it,
>> putting Cobol on it, what an achievement would it be...
>>
> But Cobol is just not the same with out some spinning tape drives.
> Ben.

Talking of spinning tape drives : anyone remember IBM's TAPESORT ?

On the 1401 a disksort was almost useless, bearing in mind that the 1311 
diskdrive only could accomodate 2 million characters.

One night, the job was to sort the wages for a large numers of factory 
workers. The job used to take 3-4 hours, so the operator went home for a 
quick nap, intending to return at 4 in the morning, so he could finish 
the job. However, the tape sort had aborted as there was a hard error on 
one of the sort tapes, so he had to start from scratch.

The factory workers' union had a clause in the agreement, saying that if 
the wages were not paid by 10 am, those who had not received the wages, 
would strike until they had.

The result of that nights sleep was therefore that as soon as some 25 
envelopes had been printed, they would be taken off the printer, filled 
with notes and coins (we are speaking of the 1970's, they would be put 
into a cab, speeded to the factory, and delivered to the workers. By 2 
PM everybody was working again. The operator was not very popular, and 
he never went home again to take a nap while "working"

/Nico


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 03:35:09 2020
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:35:09 +0100
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <3329917c-8f5d-8aee-b152-581fb5e18d61@farumdata.dk>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>
 <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <9FB2CD9C-BBED-48E7-9375-1C9A9B6CA7DF@swri.edu>
 <20200417061923.GB6269@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <6e3645d8-478f-6055-d44b-636a02942b11@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <3329917c-8f5d-8aee-b152-581fb5e18d61@farumdata.dk>
Message-ID: <026601d61493$1b691d70$523b5850$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of nico de jong via
> cctalk
> Sent: 17 April 2020 08:40
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
> 
> On 2020-04-17 09:12, ben via cctalk wrote:
> > On 4/17/2020 12:19 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
> >> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:00:17PM +0000, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk
> >> wrote:
> >> [...]
> >>> Tomasz, forgive me but I have to ask. You did note the date on which
> >>> that announcement appeared, right?
> >>
> >> Yeah. I do not have to look at it again to tell you it was dated
> >> April 1st 2005 :-). But it is ok you asked, I could have overlooked
> >> it in a hurry. But, well, Arduinos with 512 bytes or ram, just think
> >> of it, putting Cobol on it, what an achievement would it be...
> >>
> > But Cobol is just not the same with out some spinning tape drives.
> > Ben.
> 
> Talking of spinning tape drives : anyone remember IBM's TAPESORT ?
> 
> On the 1401 a disksort was almost useless, bearing in mind that the 1311
> diskdrive only could accomodate 2 million characters.
> 
> One night, the job was to sort the wages for a large numers of factory
> workers. The job used to take 3-4 hours, so the operator went home for a
> quick nap, intending to return at 4 in the morning, so he could finish the job.
> However, the tape sort had aborted as there was a hard error on one of the
> sort tapes, so he had to start from scratch.
> 
> The factory workers' union had a clause in the agreement, saying that if the
> wages were not paid by 10 am, those who had not received the wages,
> would strike until they had.
> 
> The result of that nights sleep was therefore that as soon as some 25
> envelopes had been printed, they would be taken off the printer, filled with
> notes and coins (we are speaking of the 1970's, they would be put into a cab,
> speeded to the factory, and delivered to the workers. By 2 PM everybody
> was working again. The operator was not very popular, and he never went
> home again to take a nap while "working"
> 
> /Nico

What fun what joy. When I worked with a Honeywell H3200, a 1401 clone.
Ours had 20Mb disks and really odd very high speed 1200bpi NRZI tape that nothing else would read .
Running a tape sort was a joy to watch, especially when it used the backward read...
We did use the disk sort. It was called DSORT6 and was not very reliable.
The instructions said:-

"If a DSORT6 job fails try running in a larger partition. If it still fails try it a smaller partition"

Dave


From fmc at reanimators.org  Fri Apr 17 01:18:28 2020
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 23:18:28 -0700
Subject: Scanning incomplete and updated documents
In-Reply-To: <E1jPIfo-0005xL-4c@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <2d3fe85f-1d08-0117-4a3e-17df69998a45@snowmoose.com>
 <E1jPIfo-0005xL-4c@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AD147E57-BADB-4F25-AF2B-08D7D351AD18@reanimators.org>

On Apr 16, 2020, at 21:32, J. David Bryan via cctech wrote:
> 
> On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 8:52, Alan Perry via cctech wrote:
> 
>> 1. One document is a software installation manual in a loose leaf
>> binder with other documents. It has a title page, tables of contents,
>> etc., several chapters, and then it gets interesting. It has several
>> appendix sections (starting at A), an index, then more appendix
>> sections (starting at A as well), and then another index. The document
>> title and its font match of the second set of appendix sections and
>> second index matches the table of contents and chapters. 
> 
> I've scanned roughly 450 manuals.  What you describe might be the result of 
> a manual update.  Some updates include replacement pages, with the intent 
> that the replaced pages are discarded.  I've encountered manuals, though, 
> where both the old and new pages were kept, perhaps to retain a record of 
> the changes.

TRVTH.  I used to do exactly this when HP sent updates.  I put replaced
pages at the back of the manual, and usually did not refer to them thereafter.
When the binder filled up, that?s when I might consider discarding them.

HP had the habit of printing the update date and sometimes update number near
the bottom of the updated pages.

>> Should I create two different pdfs with different appendix sections or 
>> create a single pdf with both sets?
> 
> Where both old and new pages were present, and where they could be 
> differentiated clearly, I made a separate PDF for each manual printing.  
> That is, I'd have two PDFs with the same part number with different print 
> dates -- one containing the old (original) pages, and the other containing 
> the new (replacement) pages.  See, for example:

Sometimes I have come across shrink-wrapped manuals and later updates, and
scanned them as found.  I wouldn?t want to deny other people the opportunity
to apply updates to manuals, you know?

-Frank McConnell


From jdbryan at acm.org  Fri Apr 17 01:37:59 2020
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 02:37:59 -0400
Subject: Scanning incomplete and updated documents
In-Reply-To: <AD147E57-BADB-4F25-AF2B-08D7D351AD18@reanimators.org>
References: <2d3fe85f-1d08-0117-4a3e-17df69998a45@snowmoose.com>,
 <E1jPIfo-0005xL-4c@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <AD147E57-BADB-4F25-AF2B-08D7D351AD18@reanimators.org>
Message-ID: <E1jPKck-0006qD-T6@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 23:18, Frank McConnell wrote:

> Sometimes I have come across shrink-wrapped manuals and later updates,
> and scanned them as found.  I wouldn?t want to deny other people the
> opportunity to apply updates to manuals, you know? 

Oh yes, especially the ones that would say, "Insert the six paragraphs 
below between the third and fourth lines of page 23."  :-)

I used to despise HP when they would send updates that consisted of 
instructions to modify existing manual pages instead of sending replacement 
pages.  I recall one update, maybe for the HP 64000 logic station mainframe 
service manual, that instructed me to change a dozen or so schematics -- 
simple things, like "replace feedback resistor R23 with the active filter 
circuit shown below."  That one got stuck in the front of the outdated 
manual, as I just couldn't bring myself to butcher the pages as they 
required....

When it came to manual updates, the Logic Systems Division was aptly named.

                                      -- Dave


From fmc at reanimators.org  Fri Apr 17 01:53:32 2020
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 23:53:32 -0700
Subject: Scanning incomplete and updated documents
In-Reply-To: <E1jPKck-0006qD-T6@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <2d3fe85f-1d08-0117-4a3e-17df69998a45@snowmoose.com>
 <E1jPIfo-0005xL-4c@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <AD147E57-BADB-4F25-AF2B-08D7D351AD18@reanimators.org>
 <E1jPKck-0006qD-T6@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1A4391E7-FE85-40D4-AA16-D3B31EFE30A1@reanimators.org>

On Apr 16, 2020, at 23:37, J. David Bryan wrote:
> On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 23:18, Frank McConnell wrote:
> 
>> Sometimes I have come across shrink-wrapped manuals and later updates,
>> and scanned them as found.  I wouldn?t want to deny other people the
>> opportunity to apply updates to manuals, you know?
> 
> Oh yes, especially the ones that would say, "Insert the six paragraphs
> below between the third and fourth lines of page 23."  :-)

The folks who did the 3000 manuals didn?t do that very often.  What we
got were almost always update packets that simply replaced pages in their
manuals.  Once I think I remember getting a sticker to be stuck over the
replaced text on a page.

> I used to despise HP when they would send updates that consisted of
> instructions to modify existing manual pages instead of sending replacement
> pages.  I recall one update, maybe for the HP 64000 logic station mainframe
> service manual, that instructed me to change a dozen or so schematics --
> simple things, like "replace feedback resistor R23 with the active filter
> circuit shown below."  That one got stuck in the front of the outdated
> manual, as I just couldn't bring myself to butcher the pages as they
> required....
> 
> When it came to manual updates, the Logic Systems Division was aptly named.

The 3000 folks I think had to make some effort to get beyond paste-up
to where they were doing their manuals and updates in something, and it didn?t
happen until the not-so-early 1980s.  Sometimes I thought the thing was
TDP/3000 and the camera-ready copy came out of a 2680A or 2688A printer.  I
don?t really know how they got there or how it worked, and by the end of the
1980s I think they had moved away from TDP/3000 to something else.

-Frank McConnell


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 17 07:07:47 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:07:47 -0400
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <6e3645d8-478f-6055-d44b-636a02942b11@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>
 <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <9FB2CD9C-BBED-48E7-9375-1C9A9B6CA7DF@swri.edu>
 <20200417061923.GB6269@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <6e3645d8-478f-6055-d44b-636a02942b11@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB08787550AB370A7C435DCF38EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

On 4/17/20 3:12 AM, ben via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/17/2020 12:19 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:00:17PM +0000, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk 
>> wrote:
>> [...]
>>> Tomasz, forgive me but I have to ask. You did note the date on which
>>> that announcement appeared, right?
>>
>> Yeah. I do not have to look at it again to tell you it was dated April
>> 1st 2005 :-). But it is ok you asked, I could have overlooked it in a
>> hurry. But, well, Arduinos with 512 bytes or ram, just think of it,
>> putting Cobol on it, what an achievement would it be...
>>
> But Cobol is just not the same with out some spinning tape drives.
> Ben.


I don't know about that.  You should have seen my Terak System
with 28KW of memory and 4 RX01 8" floppies doing COBOL development.
Lots of time for coffee breaks while it ran compiles.  :-)

bill


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Apr 17 09:27:51 2020
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:27:51 -0400
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <3329917c-8f5d-8aee-b152-581fb5e18d61@farumdata.dk>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>
 <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <9FB2CD9C-BBED-48E7-9375-1C9A9B6CA7DF@swri.edu>
 <20200417061923.GB6269@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <6e3645d8-478f-6055-d44b-636a02942b11@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <3329917c-8f5d-8aee-b152-581fb5e18d61@farumdata.dk>
Message-ID: <ADE6C3A6-ED16-46E1-9E25-4E7E67E17618@comcast.net>



> On Apr 17, 2020, at 3:40 AM, nico de jong via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 2020-04-17 09:12, ben via cctalk wrote:
>> On 4/17/2020 12:19 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:00:17PM +0000, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>> Tomasz, forgive me but I have to ask. You did note the date on which
>>>> that announcement appeared, right?
>>> 
>>> Yeah. I do not have to look at it again to tell you it was dated April
>>> 1st 2005 :-). But it is ok you asked, I could have overlooked it in a
>>> hurry. But, well, Arduinos with 512 bytes or ram, just think of it,
>>> putting Cobol on it, what an achievement would it be...
>>> 
>> But Cobol is just not the same with out some spinning tape drives.
>> Ben.
> 
> Talking of spinning tape drives : anyone remember IBM's TAPESORT ?

Knuth volume 3 ("Sorting and searching") has a pile of tape sort algorithms.  I remember one because of its memorable name: "Oscillating tape sort".

	paul



From emu at e-bbes.com  Fri Apr 17 09:33:48 2020
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:33:48 -0400
Subject: anybody have MOVIE.BYU?
In-Reply-To: <cae348fc-49e1-1c32-1027-b34a2833e42a@bitsavers.org>
References: <BN3PR0601MB102549354681D69CB509E37ABA780@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <587906EC.3060701@pico-systems.com> <5E9753CE.4010602@pico-systems.com>
 <cae348fc-49e1-1c32-1027-b34a2833e42a@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <23b7bf9e-8d4c-31ee-3f73-65da64cca1da@e-bbes.com>

On 2020-04-15 15:07, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/15/20 11:34 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> If anyone is interested, I could pack it up and send it to you. This
>> was for VAX/VMS.? The directory contains 67 files.
>>
> 
> I'd like the files you have.
> I have a partial copy of mini-movie

Hello Al,
would you mind, sending it to us?

rdawson16 at hotmail.com
dj.taylor4 at comcast.net
and me?

We are trying to make it work, and also looking for any "device"
drivers, for different terminals/graphic boards.

I'm really looking for the VAX/VS11 combination ...

Cheers,
emanuel

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 17 09:43:46 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:43:46 -0400
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <ADE6C3A6-ED16-46E1-9E25-4E7E67E17618@comcast.net>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>
 <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <9FB2CD9C-BBED-48E7-9375-1C9A9B6CA7DF@swri.edu>
 <20200417061923.GB6269@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <6e3645d8-478f-6055-d44b-636a02942b11@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <3329917c-8f5d-8aee-b152-581fb5e18d61@farumdata.dk>
 <ADE6C3A6-ED16-46E1-9E25-4E7E67E17618@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB0878DF94A91D497618EAF971EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

On 4/17/20 10:27 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Apr 17, 2020, at 3:40 AM, nico de jong via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 2020-04-17 09:12, ben via cctalk wrote:
>>> On 4/17/2020 12:19 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:00:17PM +0000, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>>> Tomasz, forgive me but I have to ask. You did note the date on which
>>>>> that announcement appeared, right?
>>>>
>>>> Yeah. I do not have to look at it again to tell you it was dated April
>>>> 1st 2005 :-). But it is ok you asked, I could have overlooked it in a
>>>> hurry. But, well, Arduinos with 512 bytes or ram, just think of it,
>>>> putting Cobol on it, what an achievement would it be...
>>>>
>>> But Cobol is just not the same with out some spinning tape drives.
>>> Ben.
>>
>> Talking of spinning tape drives : anyone remember IBM's TAPESORT ?
> 
> Knuth volume 3 ("Sorting and searching") has a pile of tape sort algorithms.  I remember one because of its memorable name: "Oscillating tape sort".
> 

And then there was SORT7 that ran on the 1401 at Kaiserslautern
Army Depot every night back in the early 70's.  The number referred
to how many boxes of cards held the actual program.  :-)

bill



From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Fri Apr 17 10:59:39 2020
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:59:39 -0400
Subject: anybody have MOVIE.BYU?
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR06MB43596E0B6CE276BD537C87EDBAD90@BYAPR06MB4359.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BN3PR0601MB102549354681D69CB509E37ABA780@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <587906EC.3060701@pico-systems.com> <5E9753CE.4010602@pico-systems.com>
 <cae348fc-49e1-1c32-1027-b34a2833e42a@bitsavers.org>
 <BYAPR06MB43596E0B6CE276BD537C87EDBAD90@BYAPR06MB4359.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <cfb9c3c8-aae6-1b9e-5b09-6f9767a4ff31@comcast.net>

I did get Movie.BYU up on a linux machine and also an Alpha Vax, but 
what we really need is this reference:

Christiansen, H.N. and K.B. Stephenson, "MOVIE.BYU Training Manual," 
Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah (1982)

Anyone got it?? I'm afraid the only distribution was in the training for 
Movie.BYU which was expensive (in its day).? Haven't been able to find 
it on-line or searching libraries.

If you have geometry files for Movie.BYU that would add a great deal of 
value to this effort. I've run into old Nasa reports showing the space 
shuttle and International space station rendered with Movie.BYU.

Cool stuff.

Doug

On 4/16/2020 9:24 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
> A couple other ccmp guys, Emanuel Steibler and Doug Taylor and I have been passing around what I have. Doug got it working under linux.
>
> Where is the best place to put this?
>
> I also have BYU's follow up CQUEL, greatly expanded, with X11 GUI.
>
> Randy
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 12:07 PM
> To: Jon Elson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: anybody have MOVIE.BYU?
>
> On 4/15/20 11:34 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>
>> If anyone is interested, I could pack it up and send it to you. This was for VAX/VMS.  The directory contains 67 files.
>>
> I'd like the files you have.
> I have a partial copy of mini-movie
>
>


From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri Apr 17 11:06:28 2020
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:06:28 +0000
Subject: ICL1501 Cobol manual available
In-Reply-To: <026601d61493$1b691d70$523b5850$@gmail.com>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>
 <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <9FB2CD9C-BBED-48E7-9375-1C9A9B6CA7DF@swri.edu>
 <20200417061923.GB6269@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <6e3645d8-478f-6055-d44b-636a02942b11@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <3329917c-8f5d-8aee-b152-581fb5e18d61@farumdata.dk>
 <026601d61493$1b691d70$523b5850$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200417160627.GA3206@lonesome.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 09:35:09AM +0100, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> "If a DSORT6 job fails try running in a larger partition. If it still
> fails try it a smaller partition"

I love the old tales like this.  Folks, please keep 'em coming!

mcl

From classiccmp at jouhe.org  Fri Apr 17 11:21:15 2020
From: classiccmp at jouhe.org (Classic CMP)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:21:15 +0100
Subject: Computing Folklore [Was: Re: ICL1501 Cobol manual available]
In-Reply-To: <20200417160627.GA3206@lonesome.com>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>
 <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <9FB2CD9C-BBED-48E7-9375-1C9A9B6CA7DF@swri.edu>
 <20200417061923.GB6269@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <6e3645d8-478f-6055-d44b-636a02942b11@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <3329917c-8f5d-8aee-b152-581fb5e18d61@farumdata.dk>
 <026601d61493$1b691d70$523b5850$@gmail.com>
 <20200417160627.GA3206@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <E946358D-A03D-4827-ABF2-555AEA554E5D@jouhe.org>


> On 17 Apr 2020, at 17:06, Mark Linimon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 09:35:09AM +0100, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
>> "If a DSORT6 job fails try running in a larger partition. If it still
>> fails try it a smaller partition"
> 
> I love the old tales like this.  Folks, please keep 'em coming!
> 
> mcl

I very much agree.  I was born in 1977 so I missed the era of really big iron (certainly during my working life), and the anecdotes from people on this list who were there and used vintage mainframes, mini?s and supercomputers is the real value in the list for me.

That said, I don?t think that an email list (even with the HTML archives) is the best repository for such tales, anecdotes and folklore.

I suspect that most of you will have spent at least a little time on Andy Herzfeld?s Folklore - https://folklore.org <https://folklore.org/>

Like or loathe Apple (and Mr Jobs in particular) it?s an interesting read, and the way the site links the stories together based on author, topics and characters is very reminiscent of an old Hypercard stack.  I wonder if there would be any mileage in setting up something similar (using a Wiki, perhaps?) to capture some of the tales to be told, by the people able to tell them whilst they?re still willing to tell them?

Just one of many idle lockdown musings.

I hope that you?re all well, and taking the extra time at home to keep those vintage computers running as nature intended.

-Austin.

From emu at e-bbes.com  Fri Apr 17 11:30:51 2020
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:30:51 -0400
Subject: anybody have MOVIE.BYU?
In-Reply-To: <cfb9c3c8-aae6-1b9e-5b09-6f9767a4ff31@comcast.net>
References: <BN3PR0601MB102549354681D69CB509E37ABA780@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <587906EC.3060701@pico-systems.com> <5E9753CE.4010602@pico-systems.com>
 <cae348fc-49e1-1c32-1027-b34a2833e42a@bitsavers.org>
 <BYAPR06MB43596E0B6CE276BD537C87EDBAD90@BYAPR06MB4359.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <cfb9c3c8-aae6-1b9e-5b09-6f9767a4ff31@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <48b67170-efad-7f16-8175-c840c3653eca@e-bbes.com>

On 2020-04-17 11:59, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:

> If you have geometry files for Movie.BYU that would add a great deal of
> value to this effort. I've run into old Nasa reports showing the space
> shuttle and International space station rendered with Movie.BYU.

What I found:

https://github.com/nasa/NASA-3D-Resources/tree/master/3D%20Models
(all in .3ds format)

and a converter which could probably convert .3ds to .byu
http://ivcon-tl.sourceforge.net/

Cheers!

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 11:35:53 2020
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:35:53 -0400
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <CD137525-935F-4C48-8BB9-223696821825@shaw.ca>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CD137525-935F-4C48-8BB9-223696821825@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudSJ-5yoWbmZRRq7c62zASjm6yjK7=+DdQCZw+6EGBw1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 2:21 AM Brent Hilpert via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> On 2020-Apr-15, at 5:23 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>
> > Wonderful: A few weeks ago I forgot to turn off my VT52 and left it
> running for a day or two. Now the screen is filled with snow and it looks
> like the text is all over the place horozontally.
> >
> > Any tips or thoughts on where to start looking to fix? The keyboard
> seems to be working as does the RS232 input (the snow on the screen changes
> when the pdp11 talks to it)
>
>
> Try turning the contrast or brightness up till the black level starts
> becoming illuminated. Is the raster (the screen character field / framing
> rectangle) stable?
>
> If no rectangle or stable display field becomes apparent then as Jon
> suggests it may be loss of sync, probably horizontal, and likely to be in
> the monitor circuitry.
>
> (Any affect from twiddling the H or V sync controls?)
>
> If the raster is stable then it might be something in the character
> generation pipeline (the character generator or the row pixel serializer),
> or in the monitor video amp.
>
> ("snow" as a description leaves for a range of possible interpretations.)
>
> There's always checking power supply levels to start with. In addition to
> the +5, there's probably a +/-12 or -5 for the character generator.
>

Ian Primas knows a lot about these.  (snark).....but def check the power
first, the large filter caps.  I have a working VT50, which is similar but
not exactly.  If you leave a terminal on for a long time and it dies,
that's a power issue or power related (caps resistor fried diode, etc.)
IMHO.

From aperry at snowmoose.com  Fri Apr 17 11:02:13 2020
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:02:13 -0700
Subject: Scanning incomplete and updated documents
In-Reply-To: <E1jPIfo-0005xL-4c@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <2d3fe85f-1d08-0117-4a3e-17df69998a45@snowmoose.com>
 <E1jPIfo-0005xL-4c@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1c90a377-6b9c-4801-e1cd-7b1731f93b98@snowmoose.com>



On 4/16/20 9:32 PM, J. David Bryan via cctech wrote:
> On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 8:52, Alan Perry via cctech wrote:
> 

> 
> 
>> Should I create two different pdfs with different appendix sections or
>> create a single pdf with both sets?
> 
> Where both old and new pages were present, and where they could be
> differentiated clearly, I made a separate PDF for each manual printing.
> That is, I'd have two PDFs with the same part number with different print
> dates -- one containing the old (original) pages, and the other containing
> the new (replacement) pages.  See, for example:
> 
>    /pdf/hp/64000/hardware/64161-90901_Jan-1984.pdf
>    /pdf/hp/64000/hardware/64161-90901_May-1984.pdf
> 
> and the update ("Manual Change Sheet"):
> 
>    /pdf/hp/64000/hardware/64161-90901-MCS_May-1984.pdf
> 
> ...from which the later manual was created at Bitsavers.
> 

Looking at the document, my case looks more interesting.

As I noted, the two sets of appendices are mostly completely different. 
There are 9 appendices that look like they are from the primary document 
and 5 that look like they are from inserted pages. Both sets start 
numbering from "A". There is one title shared between the two sets.

But the really interesting thing is that the copyright date on the 
"primary" document is AFTER the date in the footers of the "inserted" pages.

FYI - the document is Computervision CADDStation System Software 
Installation.

So, any recommendations on what I should do?

Also, any recommendations on a software tool to slice and dice PDFs that 
is inexpensive?

alan

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 17 11:52:29 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:52:29 -0400
Subject: DEC QBUS Backplanes
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>



I have been sorting thru a bunch of stuff in an effort to
clean the place up (Aren't we all doing that now with all
this time on our hands?)  I found a backplane.  It says
Digital on it but does not  have an H- number.  I also
don;t find it listed in any  of the lists I can find on
the web.

It has 8 A-B slots and 4 C-D slots.  the Four C-D are on
the bottom half of the backplane.  I am assuming it is
18 bit and the C-D were intended for things like the 2
board RL controller.

Anybody familiar with this and able to identify it?
Anybody interested in it?  It should fit in a USPS
Medium Flat Rate Box.

bill

From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 11:57:17 2020
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:57:17 -0400
Subject: DEC QBUS Backplanes
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAgCS67UF-RBOiWiexHj56i0wy1D7JqTh94uQnjw+8C2fw@mail.gmail.com>

Just curious - in all the backplane photos I've seen, it appears the
fragile wire wrapping is always exposed without a cover protecting it from
other components, fallen screws and wayward fingers in the computer cabinet.

Was it ever standard practice to put a cover over these? I couldn't imagine
debugging or repairing a backplane...

--
Anders Nelson

www.erogear.com


On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:52 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> I have been sorting thru a bunch of stuff in an effort to
> clean the place up (Aren't we all doing that now with all
> this time on our hands?)  I found a backplane.  It says
> Digital on it but does not  have an H- number.  I also
> don;t find it listed in any  of the lists I can find on
> the web.
>
> It has 8 A-B slots and 4 C-D slots.  the Four C-D are on
> the bottom half of the backplane.  I am assuming it is
> 18 bit and the C-D were intended for things like the 2
> board RL controller.
>
> Anybody familiar with this and able to identify it?
> Anybody interested in it?  It should fit in a USPS
> Medium Flat Rate Box.
>
> bill
>

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 17 12:04:04 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:04:04 -0400
Subject: DEC QBUS Backplanes
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAgCS67UF-RBOiWiexHj56i0wy1D7JqTh94uQnjw+8C2fw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAJ2mpAgCS67UF-RBOiWiexHj56i0wy1D7JqTh94uQnjw+8C2fw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB0878D16E23C122391CE46BC7EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

On 4/17/20 12:57 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> Just curious - in all the backplane photos I've seen, it appears the
> fragile wire wrapping is always exposed without a cover protecting it from
> other components, fallen screws and wayward fingers in the computer cabinet.
> 
> Was it ever standard practice to put a cover over these? I couldn't imagine
> debugging or repairing a backplane...

This particular backplane is soldered and has a rather heavy steel cover
over it.

bill



From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Fri Apr 17 12:06:59 2020
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:06:59 +0100
Subject: Scanning incomplete and updated documents
In-Reply-To: <1c90a377-6b9c-4801-e1cd-7b1731f93b98@snowmoose.com>
References: <2d3fe85f-1d08-0117-4a3e-17df69998a45@snowmoose.com>
 <E1jPIfo-0005xL-4c@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <1c90a377-6b9c-4801-e1cd-7b1731f93b98@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <331b6410-b879-bb2d-e88a-1f0b917b105e@ntlworld.com>

On 17/04/2020 17:02, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
>
> Looking at the document, my case looks more interesting.
>
> As I noted, the two sets of appendices are mostly completely 
> different. There are 9 appendices that look like they are from the 
> primary document and 5 that look like they are from inserted pages. 
> Both sets start numbering from "A". There is one title shared between 
> the two sets.
>
> But the really interesting thing is that the copyright date on the 
> "primary" document is AFTER the date in the footers of the "inserted" 
> pages.
>
> FYI - the document is Computervision CADDStation System Software 
> Installation.
>
> So, any recommendations on what I should do?


I have no particular recommendation as such, other than to scan every 
page and to keep them all together: if they started life as one folder 
then I'd suggest that they should continue that way.

If you do that and a "better organisation" or "standard" appears later, 
it should be easy enough to post-process your PDF to arrange the pages 
to meet that new standard.


>
> Also, any recommendations on a software tool to slice and dice PDFs 
> that is inexpensive?


pdftk works well for managing pages and PDFs. I've used pdfshuffler too, 
when I want a "visual" tool.


Antonio



-- 
Antonio Carlini
antonio at acarlini.com


From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 12:33:29 2020
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:33:29 -0400
Subject: DEC QBUS Backplanes
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR22MB0878D16E23C122391CE46BC7EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAJ2mpAgCS67UF-RBOiWiexHj56i0wy1D7JqTh94uQnjw+8C2fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878D16E23C122391CE46BC7EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAj4bmUKuF_=D1NWjaGvduuGFTuOwHpuCfexTorDbxVY+g@mail.gmail.com>

Smart!
--
Anders Nelson

www.erogear.com


On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:04 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 4/17/20 12:57 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> > Just curious - in all the backplane photos I've seen, it appears the
> > fragile wire wrapping is always exposed without a cover protecting it
> from
> > other components, fallen screws and wayward fingers in the computer
> cabinet.
> >
> > Was it ever standard practice to put a cover over these? I couldn't
> imagine
> > debugging or repairing a backplane...
>
> This particular backplane is soldered and has a rather heavy steel cover
> over it.
>
> bill
>
>
>

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 15:05:42 2020
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:05:42 -0700
Subject: DEC QBUS Backplanes
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+2Ex=cxrkJ5BPUf4p2cV7i_rJrJam8djDOymTSO-r8vQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 9:52 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> I have been sorting thru a bunch of stuff in an effort to
> clean the place up (Aren't we all doing that now with all
> this time on our hands?)  I found a backplane.  It says
> Digital on it but does not  have an H- number.  I also
> don;t find it listed in any  of the lists I can find on
> the web.
>
> It has 8 A-B slots and 4 C-D slots.  the Four C-D are on
> the bottom half of the backplane.  I am assuming it is
> 18 bit and the C-D were intended for things like the 2
> board RL controller.
>
> Anybody familiar with this and able to identify it?
> Anybody interested in it?  It should fit in a USPS
> Medium Flat Rate Box.

Sounds similar to a BA123 backplane which has 4 Q22/CD slots and 8
Q22/Q22 slots.

But the BA123 is rather distinctive with a gap then a 13th slot where
the M9058 Signal Distribution Board for the M7555 RQDX3 is installed.

For example BA123 backplane part number 54-17507-01 /  50-17506-01
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-QBUS-BACKPLANE-BA123-DEC-54-17507-01-PDP-11-MICROVAX/263251797600
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/LygAAOSwrP9Z2V7z/s-l1600.jpg

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Fri Apr 17 15:25:52 2020
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 21:25:52 +0100
Subject: DEC QBUS Backplanes
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <6e4514fa-8072-5c2f-6f7d-ff7e15db6eb3@dunnington.plus.com>

On 17/04/2020 17:52, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> 
> I found a backplane.? It says
> Digital on it but does not? have an H- number.? I also
> don;t find it listed in any? of the lists I can find on
> the web.
> 
> It has 8 A-B slots and 4 C-D slots.? the Four C-D are on
> the bottom half of the backplane.? I am assuming it is
> 18 bit and the C-D were intended for things like the 2
> board RL controller.

Is it quad height or hex height?  Is there a picture anywhere?
It sounds a bit like an H9278-A, which is a 22-bit 4 x 8 (ie quad 
height, 8 rows) backplane for a BA23 box.  That has a mixture of Q22 and 
CD in part and Q22 on the rest, but the rows with CD are the top rows.

http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 17 15:37:05 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:37:05 -0400
Subject: DEC QBUS Backplanes
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+2Ex=cxrkJ5BPUf4p2cV7i_rJrJam8djDOymTSO-r8vQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOw+2Ex=cxrkJ5BPUf4p2cV7i_rJrJam8djDOymTSO-r8vQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB087897386DE901CB6F55F8C7EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

On 4/17/20 4:05 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 9:52 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> I have been sorting thru a bunch of stuff in an effort to
>> clean the place up (Aren't we all doing that now with all
>> this time on our hands?)  I found a backplane.  It says
>> Digital on it but does not  have an H- number.  I also
>> don;t find it listed in any  of the lists I can find on
>> the web.
>>
>> It has 8 A-B slots and 4 C-D slots.  the Four C-D are on
>> the bottom half of the backplane.  I am assuming it is
>> 18 bit and the C-D were intended for things like the 2
>> board RL controller.
>>
>> Anybody familiar with this and able to identify it?
>> Anybody interested in it?  It should fit in a USPS
>> Medium Flat Rate Box.
> 
> Sounds similar to a BA123 backplane which has 4 Q22/CD slots and 8
> Q22/Q22 slots.
> 
> But the BA123 is rather distinctive with a gap then a 13th slot where
> the M9058 Signal Distribution Board for the M7555 RQDX3 is installed.
> 
> For example BA123 backplane part number 54-17507-01 /  50-17506-01
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-QBUS-BACKPLANE-BA123-DEC-54-17507-01-PDP-11-MICROVAX/263251797600
> https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/LygAAOSwrP9Z2V7z/s-l1600.jpg
> 


Definitely not that.  Very small.  Just big enough for the
slots I mentioned above.  Power strip on one edge and berg
pins for control on the other.

bill


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 15:41:15 2020
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:41:15 -0700
Subject: DEC QBUS Backplanes
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR22MB087897386DE901CB6F55F8C7EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOw+2Ex=cxrkJ5BPUf4p2cV7i_rJrJam8djDOymTSO-r8vQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB087897386DE901CB6F55F8C7EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLk-0iMApK7pbQ3SkaSEYcttiB_aiVnnCyBSpWL5KikSg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:37 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Definitely not that.  Very small.  Just big enough for the
> slots I mentioned above.  Power strip on one edge and berg
> pins for control on the other.
>

I thought you meant 4 rows of Q/CD slots plus 8 rows of Q/Q slots.

So it is actually 4 rows of Q/CD slots plus 4 rows of Q/Q slots?

From RichA at livingcomputers.org  Fri Apr 17 14:13:11 2020
From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:13:11 +0000
Subject: Computing Folklore [Was: Re: ICL1501 Cobol manual available]
In-Reply-To: <E946358D-A03D-4827-ABF2-555AEA554E5D@jouhe.org>
References: <d3319364-7864-9574-2619-470c9155a00b@greenmail.ch>
 <CA+2pV55hbqypaYUp+qsiMnqwpRe8aqT+Nq5s21SxQDaJViaOAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878C4A2FDE87D9B4D6ABE78EDC30@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <370901895.128002.1586286685821@email.ionos.com>
 <20200415165727.GA3646@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <9FB2CD9C-BBED-48E7-9375-1C9A9B6CA7DF@swri.edu>
 <20200417061923.GB6269@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <6e3645d8-478f-6055-d44b-636a02942b11@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <3329917c-8f5d-8aee-b152-581fb5e18d61@farumdata.dk>
 <026601d61493$1b691d70$523b5850$@gmail.com>
 <20200417160627.GA3206@lonesome.com>
 <E946358D-A03D-4827-ABF2-555AEA554E5D@jouhe.org>
Message-ID: <c21dc1cb8f414a4b959dcd27901e37f2@livingcomputers.org>

From: Classic CMP
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 9:21 AM

> I suspect that most of you will have spent at least a little time on Andy
> Herzfeld?s Folklore - https://folklore.org <https://folklore.org/>

> Like or loathe Apple (and Mr Jobs in particular) it?s an interesting read,
> and the way the site links the stories together based on author, topics and
> characters is very reminiscent of an old Hypercard stack.  I wonder if there
> would be any mileage in setting up something similar (using a Wiki, perhaps?)
> to capture some of the tales to be told, by the people able to tell them
> whilst they?re still willing to tell them?

Another good example of such a web site is Multicians.ORG, especially
the pages starting at https://www.multicians.org/multics-stories.html

                                                                Rich


Rich Alderson
Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Ave S
Seattle, WA 98134

http://www.LivingComputers.org/



From jdbryan at acm.org  Fri Apr 17 15:06:33 2020
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:06:33 -0400
Subject: Scanning incomplete and updated documents
In-Reply-To: <1A4391E7-FE85-40D4-AA16-D3B31EFE30A1@reanimators.org>
References: <2d3fe85f-1d08-0117-4a3e-17df69998a45@snowmoose.com>,
 <E1jPKck-0006qD-T6@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <1A4391E7-FE85-40D4-AA16-D3B31EFE30A1@reanimators.org>
Message-ID: <E1jPXFx-0002Ss-U5@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 23:53, Frank McConnell wrote:

> The folks who did the 3000 manuals didn?t do that very often.  What we
> got were almost always update packets that simply replaced pages in
> their manuals. 

To be fair, the 1000 (DSD) manuals were updated by replacement pages also.  
What was odd and frustrating about the LSD folks was that a given update 
might have two replacement pages and fifteen instructions to modify 
existing pages.

Interesting that each division seemed to have its own rules.


> The 3000 folks I think had to make some effort to get beyond paste-up
> to where they were doing their manuals and updates in something, and
> it didn?t happen until the not-so-early 1980s.

The pre-1980 1000 software manuals, and pretty much all of the hardware 
manuals, appeared to be typeset.  Starting around 1980 through 1986 or so, 
the software manuals had typeset headings and chain-line-printed body text. 
After that, they appear to have been mastered on a laser printer.


> Sometimes I thought the thing was TDP/3000 and the camera-ready copy
> came out of a 2680A or 2688A printer. 

I recall receiving one manual that was actually printed on a 2680...on 
fanfold blank letter-size paper.  Had to de-perf it and punch holes for a 
binder.

                                      -- Dave


From jdbryan at acm.org  Fri Apr 17 15:41:38 2020
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:41:38 -0400
Subject: Scanning incomplete and updated documents
In-Reply-To: <331b6410-b879-bb2d-e88a-1f0b917b105e@ntlworld.com>
References: <2d3fe85f-1d08-0117-4a3e-17df69998a45@snowmoose.com>,
 <1c90a377-6b9c-4801-e1cd-7b1731f93b98@snowmoose.com>,
 <331b6410-b879-bb2d-e88a-1f0b917b105e@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <E1jPXnu-0008t1-7X@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 18:06, Antonio Carlini via cctech wrote:

> pdftk works well for managing pages and PDFs.

I'll second that.  It's been invaluable for combining PDFs (such as when a 
supplier insists on delivering its general catalog in individual sections), 
as well as extracting subsets of pages.

  https://www.pdflabs.com/tools/pdftk-the-pdf-toolkit/

I find that the free one works fine for my applications.

                                      -- Dave


From jdbryan at acm.org  Fri Apr 17 15:42:11 2020
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:42:11 -0400
Subject: Scanning incomplete and updated documents
In-Reply-To: <1c90a377-6b9c-4801-e1cd-7b1731f93b98@snowmoose.com>
References: <2d3fe85f-1d08-0117-4a3e-17df69998a45@snowmoose.com>,
 <E1jPIfo-0005xL-4c@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <1c90a377-6b9c-4801-e1cd-7b1731f93b98@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <E1jPXoR-000Bo0-Os@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 9:02, Alan Perry via cctech wrote:

> But the really interesting thing is that the copyright date on the 
> "primary" document is AFTER the date in the footers of the "inserted"
> pages.

Sometimes an update contains a replacement title page (containing the 
update date), and sometimes updates supersede other updates for the same 
manual.  I've seen ones that have different change dates at different 
points in the manual, with the title page reflecting the date of the last 
update.  Maybe you have something like that.


> So, any recommendations on what I should do?

If you can't clearly determine whether the pages you have belong to one 
manual print date or two, then it certainly wouldn't hurt simply to include 
both sets of pages in one PDF.  My personal goals for scanning, in 
decreasing priority, are:

 1. Preserve the exact representation of a manual.

 2. Preserve the information in a manual in a usable format.

 3. Preserve the pages of a manual.

Even if you have to fall back to #3, something might turn up later that 
would allow you to go back and reorganize the pages into a more useful 
arrangement or into an original format.

                                      -- Dave


From fmc at reanimators.org  Fri Apr 17 16:42:56 2020
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:42:56 -0700
Subject: Scanning incomplete and updated documents
In-Reply-To: <1c90a377-6b9c-4801-e1cd-7b1731f93b98@snowmoose.com>
References: <2d3fe85f-1d08-0117-4a3e-17df69998a45@snowmoose.com>
 <E1jPIfo-0005xL-4c@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <1c90a377-6b9c-4801-e1cd-7b1731f93b98@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <14304BAA-30B7-4FF4-B2F4-C60AF7F9AF51@reanimators.org>

On Apr 17, 2020, at 9:02, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
> As I noted, the two sets of appendices are mostly completely different. There are 9 appendices that look like they are from the primary document and 5 that look like they are from inserted pages. Both sets start numbering from "A". There is one title shared between the two sets.
> 
> But the really interesting thing is that the copyright date on the "primary" document is AFTER the date in the footers of the "inserted" pages.

Do not underestimate the powers of humans to make errors when creating or applying updates.

> FYI - the document is Computervision CADDStation System Software Installation.
> 
> So, any recommendations on what I should do?
> 
> Also, any recommendations on a software tool to slice and dice PDFs that is inexpensive?

Depends what you want to do.  On a Mac, I use Preview which is the default PDF viewer; it allows me to cut, copy and paste scanned pages from one PDF to another.

I also do some things with Perl and CAM::PDF which makes writing filter-like programs that do page-level operations fairly easy, e.g. I have one that deletes the odd-numbered pages from a stdin-supplied PDF and writes the resulting PDF to stdout and I think it?s about 12 lines total.  Anyone care to guess what my use case for this is?

-Frank McConnell




From fmc at reanimators.org  Fri Apr 17 16:42:56 2020
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:42:56 -0700
Subject: Scanning incomplete and updated documents
In-Reply-To: <1c90a377-6b9c-4801-e1cd-7b1731f93b98@snowmoose.com>
References: <2d3fe85f-1d08-0117-4a3e-17df69998a45@snowmoose.com>
 <E1jPIfo-0005xL-4c@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <1c90a377-6b9c-4801-e1cd-7b1731f93b98@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <14304BAA-30B7-4FF4-B2F4-C60AF7F9AF51@reanimators.org>

On Apr 17, 2020, at 9:02, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
> As I noted, the two sets of appendices are mostly completely different. There are 9 appendices that look like they are from the primary document and 5 that look like they are from inserted pages. Both sets start numbering from "A". There is one title shared between the two sets.
> 
> But the really interesting thing is that the copyright date on the "primary" document is AFTER the date in the footers of the "inserted" pages.

Do not underestimate the powers of humans to make errors when creating or applying updates.

> FYI - the document is Computervision CADDStation System Software Installation.
> 
> So, any recommendations on what I should do?
> 
> Also, any recommendations on a software tool to slice and dice PDFs that is inexpensive?

Depends what you want to do.  On a Mac, I use Preview which is the default PDF viewer; it allows me to cut, copy and paste scanned pages from one PDF to another.

I also do some things with Perl and CAM::PDF which makes writing filter-like programs that do page-level operations fairly easy, e.g. I have one that deletes the odd-numbered pages from a stdin-supplied PDF and writes the resulting PDF to stdout and I think it?s about 12 lines total.  Anyone care to guess what my use case for this is?

-Frank McConnell




From len at shustek.com  Fri Apr 17 16:48:42 2020
From: len at shustek.com (Len Shustek)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:48:42 -0700
Subject: Looking for a document regarding PDP8 
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1587142800.44046.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1587142800.44046.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20200417214853.2D444274FD@mx1.ezwind.net>

At 10:00 AM 4/17/2020, Bob Smith <bobsmithofd at gmail.com> wrote:
>...I believe sometime in the late 70s, maybe as late as 1980, a prof
>associated with UMass wrote a paper describing an extension of the
>PDP8 called 8/X or 8X.
>...I believe, my memory is fuzzy, that it was a prof nnmed Stone or
>Stoner (perhaps Harold S) who lead the effort and had his name on the
>paper.

That is probably Harold S. Stone, whom I knew as a Stanford prof in 
the early 1970s and did some corporate consulting with. Brilliant 
guy. From 1974 to 1984 he was at UMass Amherst, so your memory isn't 
fuzzy at all. He also worked at the IBM Yorktown Heights research 
center. He was the author of several books and many papers about 
computer architecture, algorithms, and interfaces.

Unfortunately I don't remember him working on a PDP-8 extension, and 
a quick search of the ACM Digital Library turned up nothing. As far 
as I know he's still alive at the age of 82. 


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 17 19:20:39 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:20:39 -0400
Subject: DEC QBUS Backplanes
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLk-0iMApK7pbQ3SkaSEYcttiB_aiVnnCyBSpWL5KikSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOw+2Ex=cxrkJ5BPUf4p2cV7i_rJrJam8djDOymTSO-r8vQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB087897386DE901CB6F55F8C7EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOwLk-0iMApK7pbQ3SkaSEYcttiB_aiVnnCyBSpWL5KikSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB0878D7D21276034AB66A9BD4EDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

On 4/17/20 4:41 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:37 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> Definitely not that.  Very small.  Just big enough for the
>> slots I mentioned above.  Power strip on one edge and berg
>> pins for control on the other.
>>
> 
> I thought you meant 4 rows of Q/CD slots plus 8 rows of Q/Q slots.
> 
> So it is actually 4 rows of Q/CD slots plus 4 rows of Q/Q slots?
> 


Can't send a picture, so lets try this:


         A        B         C       D

     |--------|--------|
     |        |        |
     |        |        |
     |--------|--------|
     |        |        |
     |        |        |
     |--------|--------|
     |        |        |
     |        |        |
     |--------|--------|
     |        |        |
     |        |        |
     |--------|--------|--------|-------|
     |        |        |        |       |
     |        |        |        |       |
     |--------|--------|--------|-------|
     |        |        |        |       |
     |        |        |        |       |
     |--------|--------|--------|-------|
     |        |        |        |       |
     |        |        |        |       |
     |--------|--------|--------|-------|
     |        |        |        |       |
     |        |        |        |       |
     |--------|--------|--------|-------|


That's what it looks like.

bill

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Fri Apr 17 19:36:40 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:36:40 -0400
Subject: DEC QBUS Backplanes
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR22MB0878D7D21276034AB66A9BD4EDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOw+2Ex=cxrkJ5BPUf4p2cV7i_rJrJam8djDOymTSO-r8vQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB087897386DE901CB6F55F8C7EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOwLk-0iMApK7pbQ3SkaSEYcttiB_aiVnnCyBSpWL5KikSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878D7D21276034AB66A9BD4EDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <3f21da7d-9141-b31f-9dd6-874eac04ca6f@alembic.crystel.com>

Hm. Plessy backplane?

On 4/17/2020 8:20 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/17/20 4:41 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:37 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Definitely not that.? Very small.? Just big enough for the
>>> slots I mentioned above.? Power strip on one edge and berg
>>> pins for control on the other.
>>>
>>
>> I thought you meant 4 rows of Q/CD slots plus 8 rows of Q/Q slots.
>>
>> So it is actually 4 rows of Q/CD slots plus 4 rows of Q/Q slots?
>>
> 
> 
> Can't send a picture, so lets try this:
> 
> 
>  ??????? A??????? B???????? C?????? D
> 
>  ??? |--------|--------|
>  ??? |??????? |??????? |
>  ??? |??????? |??????? |
>  ??? |--------|--------|
>  ??? |??????? |??????? |
>  ??? |??????? |??????? |
>  ??? |--------|--------|
>  ??? |??????? |??????? |
>  ??? |??????? |??????? |
>  ??? |--------|--------|
>  ??? |??????? |??????? |
>  ??? |??????? |??????? |
>  ??? |--------|--------|--------|-------|
>  ??? |??????? |??????? |??????? |?????? |
>  ??? |??????? |??????? |??????? |?????? |
>  ??? |--------|--------|--------|-------|
>  ??? |??????? |??????? |??????? |?????? |
>  ??? |??????? |??????? |??????? |?????? |
>  ??? |--------|--------|--------|-------|
>  ??? |??????? |??????? |??????? |?????? |
>  ??? |??????? |??????? |??????? |?????? |
>  ??? |--------|--------|--------|-------|
>  ??? |??????? |??????? |??????? |?????? |
>  ??? |??????? |??????? |??????? |?????? |
>  ??? |--------|--------|--------|-------|
> 
> 
> That's what it looks like.
> 
> bill

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 17 20:09:53 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 21:09:53 -0400
Subject: DEC QBUS Backplanes
In-Reply-To: <3f21da7d-9141-b31f-9dd6-874eac04ca6f@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOw+2Ex=cxrkJ5BPUf4p2cV7i_rJrJam8djDOymTSO-r8vQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB087897386DE901CB6F55F8C7EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOwLk-0iMApK7pbQ3SkaSEYcttiB_aiVnnCyBSpWL5KikSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878D7D21276034AB66A9BD4EDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <3f21da7d-9141-b31f-9dd6-874eac04ca6f@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB0878BFFD2F78C82377871DAAEDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

On 4/17/20 8:36 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Hm. Plessy backplane?

No name on the phenolic board part but the QBUS sockets are labeled
"Digital Equipment Corporation".

bill


From useddec at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 20:40:17 2020
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:40:17 -0500
Subject: DEC QBUS Backplanes
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR22MB0878BFFD2F78C82377871DAAEDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOw+2Ex=cxrkJ5BPUf4p2cV7i_rJrJam8djDOymTSO-r8vQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB087897386DE901CB6F55F8C7EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOwLk-0iMApK7pbQ3SkaSEYcttiB_aiVnnCyBSpWL5KikSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878D7D21276034AB66A9BD4EDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <3f21da7d-9141-b31f-9dd6-874eac04ca6f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878BFFD2F78C82377871DAAEDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNn0Zpek5EJwBs1SYXLozCdOKitDzeaeKpochxuNH458w@mail.gmail.com>

I remember the VT72 had a non-standard backplane in it, but I don't
remember the details.

Paul

On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:10 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 4/17/20 8:36 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> > Hm. Plessy backplane?
>
> No name on the phenolic board part but the QBUS sockets are labeled
> "Digital Equipment Corporation".
>
> bill
>
>

From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Fri Apr 17 20:48:45 2020
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 21:48:45 -0400
Subject: DEC QBUS Backplanes
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuNn0Zpek5EJwBs1SYXLozCdOKitDzeaeKpochxuNH458w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOw+2Ex=cxrkJ5BPUf4p2cV7i_rJrJam8djDOymTSO-r8vQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB087897386DE901CB6F55F8C7EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOwLk-0iMApK7pbQ3SkaSEYcttiB_aiVnnCyBSpWL5KikSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878D7D21276034AB66A9BD4EDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <3f21da7d-9141-b31f-9dd6-874eac04ca6f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878BFFD2F78C82377871DAAEDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CACwhfuNn0Zpek5EJwBs1SYXLozCdOKitDzeaeKpochxuNH458w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c1dfd10b-c219-bd04-3fd5-24ab66aa303c@ieee.org>

The actual sockets were always labelled with Digital's trademarks, but 
they sold them to OEMs to do what they like with them.? We OEM'd for the 
Components Group, at one time placed a million dollar order of stuff 
including boxes of those backplane sockets!

cheers,

Nigel



On 17/04/2020 21:40, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote:
> I remember the VT72 had a non-standard backplane in it, but I don't
> remember the details.
>
> Paul
>
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:10 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> On 4/17/20 8:36 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>>> Hm. Plessy backplane?
>> No name on the phenolic board part but the QBUS sockets are labeled
>> "Digital Equipment Corporation".
>>
>> bill
>>
>>
  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE, MCSE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 17 20:55:41 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 21:55:41 -0400
Subject: DEC QBUS Backplanes
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuNn0Zpek5EJwBs1SYXLozCdOKitDzeaeKpochxuNH458w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOw+2Ex=cxrkJ5BPUf4p2cV7i_rJrJam8djDOymTSO-r8vQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB087897386DE901CB6F55F8C7EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOwLk-0iMApK7pbQ3SkaSEYcttiB_aiVnnCyBSpWL5KikSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878D7D21276034AB66A9BD4EDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <3f21da7d-9141-b31f-9dd6-874eac04ca6f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878BFFD2F78C82377871DAAEDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CACwhfuNn0Zpek5EJwBs1SYXLozCdOKitDzeaeKpochxuNH458w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB0878A1022D74274ACDD695C7EDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

On 4/17/20 9:40 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
> I remember the VT72 had a non-standard backplane in it, but I don't 
> remember the details.
> 

This came out of a real PDP-11.  I probably still have the box but
with a bigger backplane.  It was easily swapped.

bill



From jsw at ieee.org  Fri Apr 17 21:08:48 2020
From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 21:08:48 -0500
Subject: DEC QBUS Backplanes
In-Reply-To: <c1dfd10b-c219-bd04-3fd5-24ab66aa303c@ieee.org>
References: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOw+2Ex=cxrkJ5BPUf4p2cV7i_rJrJam8djDOymTSO-r8vQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB087897386DE901CB6F55F8C7EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOwLk-0iMApK7pbQ3SkaSEYcttiB_aiVnnCyBSpWL5KikSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878D7D21276034AB66A9BD4EDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <3f21da7d-9141-b31f-9dd6-874eac04ca6f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878BFFD2F78C82377871DAAEDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CACwhfuNn0Zpek5EJwBs1SYXLozCdOKitDzeaeKpochxuNH458w@mail.gmail.com>
 <c1dfd10b-c219-bd04-3fd5-24ab66aa303c@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <631e23fe-3ec4-1830-756d-4eddd0c16457@ieee.org>

We had a few third party backplanes arranged like this.? This allowed 
them to put a small MFM hard drive or 8 inch floppy in empty? area next 
to the 4x2 (2x4?) slots of rack-mount 3U or 4U sized unit.? I don't 
recall any that were a mix of A-B, C-D.? Ours were A-B, A-B.

 ??? Jerry

On 4/17/20 8:48 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:
> The actual sockets were always labelled with Digital's trademarks, but 
> they sold them to OEMs to do what they like with them.? We OEM'd for 
> the Components Group, at one time placed a million dollar order of 
> stuff including boxes of those backplane sockets!
>
> cheers,
>
> Nigel
>
>
>
> On 17/04/2020 21:40, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote:
>> I remember the VT72 had a non-standard backplane in it, but I don't
>> remember the details.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:10 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/17/20 8:36 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>>>> Hm. Plessy backplane?
>>> No name on the phenolic board part but the QBUS sockets are labeled
>>> "Digital Equipment Corporation".
>>>
>>> bill
>>>
>>>
>
>


From couryhouse at aol.com  Sat Apr 18 00:32:00 2020
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 05:32:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Looking to purchase CODE A PHONE  bell system attachment that woukd
 allow,deaf to send morse code through bell system phone.  Respond off
 list...... they would tap on litte finger pad . this,was,an attachment to a
 regular phone,set made in later 60s or 70s. Person on other end would see
 light flash I guess... drop us a line off list.
References: <764628153.1725125.1587187920400.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <764628153.1725125.1587187920400@mail.yahoo.com>


Looking to purchase CODE A PHONE? bell system attachment that woukd allow,deaf to send morse code through bell system phone.? Respond off list...... they would tap on litte finger pad . this,was,an attachment to a regular phone,set made in later 60s or 70s. Person on other end would see light flash I guess... drop us a line off list.

From mattislind at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 03:45:57 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:45:57 +0200
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Chris!

Sorry that your trusty VT52 failed. But it shouldn't be too hard to repair
it!

I have successfully restored a VT52 (actually a VT50 with a brain
transplant): http://www.datormuseum.se/home/dec-vt5x. My experience is that
the capacitors were in good shape. Especially the bigger filter capacitor.
I think that DEC used great quality capacitors.

It is always a good idea to check the voltages so that they are within the
spec. But it should not be necessary to replace all the capacitors in my
opinion.

The VT52 is a quite interesting design with a very simplistic CPU built
from TTL components and a microprogram that has 1024 by 8 bits. Most of the
operations inside it is controlled from this program. In mine the sockets
for the mikroprogram were bad which meant that it failed to do anything.
Then I had a couple of gates that were bad.

Den tors 16 apr. 2020 kl 23:07 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org>:

> Wonderful: A few weeks ago I forgot to turn off my VT52 and left it
> running for a day or two. Now the screen is filled with snow and it
> looks like the text is all over the place horozontally.
>

It would be great to have a picture since it could give some hints on what
is wrong with it. My understanding is that the scan is working both
horizontally and vertically. Otherwise you would only have a straight line.
Unlike many common CRTs this CRT circuitry has no oscillator in it that
creates a picture without input. And since the horisontal
deflection circuit also creates the high voltage there would be no picture
at all unless the horisontal signal is there.

This means that the two control boards in the bottom creates some kind of
horisontal and vertical signals. These signals comes from a simple divider
chain. There could be some kind of problem in the divider chain. But then
it would be more likely to not work at all if one of the counters are bad.
But it is a good idea to check the H and V signal som they are inline with
the spec. Around 15kHz and 60 or 50 Hz respectively.

Since I haven't seen how the output looks like I speculating a bit. It
could be the case that the divider chain is correct but the video signal is
not generated in sync with the divider chain. Then the characters would end
up all over the place on screen.

There is a flip-flip, made out of a 7400 (E16) and 74H10 (E14) that is the
video flip-flop. It controls when the screen is rendered. It might be
the case it could cause your problem. I think it is a  good idea to check
the signals around this flip-flop.

I am always a bit skeptical towards 74Hxx. My impression is that they fail
more often than standard 74xx.

When I repaired my VT52 I made a quick circuit that created a composite
video signal from the control board. The signal was fed into a standard CRT
monitor which I had around.  I could then run the control boards flat on
the bench to take measurements rather than assembling prior to each test. I
thought that it was quite handy.


> Any tips or thoughts on where to start looking to fix? The keyboard
> seems to be working as does the RS232 input (the snow on the screen
> changes when the pdp11 talks to it)
>

This indicate that since you are using RS232 you have at least some kind of
voltage level on +12 V and -12 V since otherwise there would be no
communication. And +5V is probably not that bad either. Since not much
would operate in that case. Likewise the -5V is probably ok since the char
rom would not work very well without the bias.

Good luck with your repair!

/Mattis


>
> Thanks!
> Chris
>

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat Apr 18 06:26:24 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 12:26:24 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
Message-ID: <00f801d61574$31b08550$95118ff0$@ntlworld.com>

Some of you may recall seeing me post about the VAXmate PSU failure. Thanks
to members of this list I found the failed part in the PSU and the PSU is
now working again. However, it looks like the PSU failed because of a
failure on the monitor board. There is a burning smell coming from it,
possibly the flyback transformer, but I am not 100% sure. I don't see
physical damage, but of course that doesn't mean there isn't a problem. When
I took the monitor board out again after this, I wasn't sure if the EHT lead
was making good contact with the CRT anode. The monitor board is described
in section 4.4 of this document:
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vaxmate/EK-PC500-TD_VAXmate_Technical_Descripti
on_1987.pdf

 

 

I need some advice on diagnosing the problem, I have a few questions:

 

1.	If the EHT lead was not properly connected to the CRT anode, could
that cause problems?
2.	Is there anything I can safely do with a bench power supply to
isolate the problem?
3.	Any other suggestions for diagnosing the problem?
4.	There is an outline spec of the flyback transformer in the section
4.4.3.2 of the VAXmate technical description, what chance of finding a
"modern" replacement?

 

I have posted about the PSU repair here:

 

https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/04/18/vaxmate-h7270-psu-fixed-but-no-vid
eo/

 

Thanks

 

Rob

 


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 18 06:50:21 2020
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:50:21 -0400
Subject: DEC QBUS Backplanes
In-Reply-To: <631e23fe-3ec4-1830-756d-4eddd0c16457@ieee.org>
References: <MWHPR22MB0878E5768693E9A39BD6C975EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOw+2Ex=cxrkJ5BPUf4p2cV7i_rJrJam8djDOymTSO-r8vQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB087897386DE901CB6F55F8C7EDD90@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOwLk-0iMApK7pbQ3SkaSEYcttiB_aiVnnCyBSpWL5KikSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878D7D21276034AB66A9BD4EDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <3f21da7d-9141-b31f-9dd6-874eac04ca6f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <MWHPR22MB0878BFFD2F78C82377871DAAEDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CACwhfuNn0Zpek5EJwBs1SYXLozCdOKitDzeaeKpochxuNH458w@mail.gmail.com>
 <c1dfd10b-c219-bd04-3fd5-24ab66aa303c@ieee.org>
 <631e23fe-3ec4-1830-756d-4eddd0c16457@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <MWHPR22MB087876D502789C481FC5FC6BEDD60@MWHPR22MB0878.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>



This is an interesting discussion.  I may have to dig thru my
boxes and see if I still have the box this backplane came in.
Lots of time to do  it.

But, on another note, I was planning on sending it to
someone when the thought occurred to me last night.  I
can't.  I don't even know if the Post Office is still
open other than for picking up mail from PO Boxes.
Haven't been anywhere near it in weeks and don't
anticipate going anywhere in that direction for several
more weeks.

But, I have other things that will need to go, too, Some that
can't be practically sent. Like a currently non-functioning
RX02 box.  Might need to find someone close enough to pick
this stuff up when life returns to something closer to
normal.

bill



From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Sat Apr 18 06:57:25 2020
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 12:57:25 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
In-Reply-To: <00f801d61574$31b08550$95118ff0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <01RJUR9TE6QU8X9I3J@beyondthepale.ie>

> 
> Some of you may recall seeing me post about the VAXmate PSU failure. Thanks
> to members of this list I found the failed part in the PSU and the PSU is
> now working again. However, it looks like the PSU failed because of a
> failure on the monitor board. There is a burning smell coming from it,
> possibly the flyback transformer, but I am not 100% sure. I don't see
> physical damage, but of course that doesn't mean there isn't a problem. When
> I took the monitor board out again after this, I wasn't sure if the EHT lead
> was making good contact with the CRT anode. The monitor board is described
> in section 4.4 of this document:
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vaxmate/EK-PC500-TD_VAXmate_Technical_Descripti
> on_1987.pdf
>   

Congratulations on getting your PSU failure sorted out.  I suppose you realise
this means there will be a line of people wanting you to look at our PSU
problems the next time we meet up :-)
 
> 
> I need some advice on diagnosing the problem, I have a few questions:  
> 
> 1.	If the EHT lead was not properly connected to the CRT anode, could
> that cause problems?
>

Possibly.  I have VT220 terminal which was making a smell of ozone when it was
running which I should have done something about but never got around to.
This could have been due to corona discharge around the CRT anode connection
or around the flyback transformer but I never found out.  Eventually, it
stopped working, drawing excess current from the 12V power supply.  The
flyback transformer appears to have been damaged.

>
> 2.	Is there anything I can safely do with a bench power supply to
> isolate the problem?
> 3.	Any other suggestions for diagnosing the problem?
>

One approach to testing flyback transformers seems to be to use a circuit
that causes them to ring and observing whether the ringing is damped by
shorted turns.  I've never got around to trying this myself.

>
> 4.	There is an outline spec of the flyback transformer in the section
> 4.4.3.2 of the VAXmate technical description, what chance of finding a
> "modern" replacement?
> 

I wish you good luck with this.  I never had any luck locating one for my
VT220 :-(

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

>
> I have posted about the PSU repair here:
> 
>  
> 
> https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/04/18/vaxmate-h7270-psu-fixed-but-no-video/
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks
> 
>  
> 
> Rob
> 
>  


From mattislind at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 07:30:56 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:30:56 +0200
Subject: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
In-Reply-To: <00f801d61574$31b08550$95118ff0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <00f801d61574$31b08550$95118ff0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82SJtv1G6iveEggzzVhOpQ00Wj7ZWc+V_NxcruHzRDX9X1Q@mail.gmail.com>

Den l?r 18 apr. 2020 kl 13:26 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org>:

> Some of you may recall seeing me post about the VAXmate PSU failure. Thanks
> to members of this list I found the failed part in the PSU and the PSU is
> now working again. However, it looks like the PSU failed because of a
> failure on the monitor board. There is a burning smell coming from it,
> possibly the flyback transformer, but I am not 100% sure. I don't see
> physical damage, but of course that doesn't mean there isn't a problem.
> When
> I took the monitor board out again after this, I wasn't sure if the EHT
> lead
> was making good contact with the CRT anode. The monitor board is described
> in section 4.4 of this document:
>
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vaxmate/EK-PC500-TD_VAXmate_Technical_Descripti
> on_1987.pdf
> <http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vaxmate/EK-PC500-TD_VAXmate_Technical_Description_1987.pdf>
>
>
>
>
>
> I need some advice on diagnosing the problem, I have a few questions:
>
>
>
> 1.      If the EHT lead was not properly connected to the CRT anode, could
> that cause problems?
>

No, that is unlikely in my opinion


> 2.      Is there anything I can safely do with a bench power supply to
> isolate the problem?

3.      Any other suggestions for diagnosing the problem?
>

Check Q6 transistor. Looking at the picture 4-14, I think it is wrong. But
nevertheless check the capacitors C47 and C53.
It happens that the EHT transformer get short-circuit turns. But it has
only occurred to me once. More often a capacitor is bad, a rectifier or the
switch transistor.

If the EHT transformer is bad it performs bad when doing a ringing test.

Try to find out what is smelling. Check all power semiconductors.


> 4.      There is an outline spec of the flyback transformer in the section
> 4.4.3.2 of the VAXmate technical description, what chance of finding a
> "modern" replacement?
>

Usually very low. There are companies selling replacements but there are so
many variants so the chances to find one is very low. And there are less
and less of these on the market. But it is worth a try to check what they
have. It might be the case that they used the same monitor design as some
other DEC product. VT420? Then it could possible a better chance finding
one. donberg.ie seem to have VT420 LOPT.

/Mattis


>
>
> I have posted about the PSU repair here:
>
>
>
>
> https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/04/18/vaxmate-h7270-psu-fixed-but-no-vid
> eo/
> <https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/04/18/vaxmate-h7270-psu-fixed-but-no-video/>
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Rob
>
>
>
>

From Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk  Sat Apr 18 09:13:00 2020
From: Aaron.Jackson at nottingham.ac.uk (Aaron Jackson)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:13:00 +0000
Subject: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
In-Reply-To: <01RJUR9TE6QU8X9I3J@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <00f801d61574$31b08550$95118ff0$@ntlworld.com>
 <01RJUR9TE6QU8X9I3J@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <91bo8ro287o.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk>

>> 1.	If the EHT lead was not properly connected to the CRT anode, could
>> that cause problems?
>
> Possibly.  I have VT220 terminal which was making a smell of ozone when it was
> running which I should have done something about but never got around to.
> This could have been due to corona discharge around the CRT anode connection
> or around the flyback transformer but I never found out.  Eventually, it
> stopped working, drawing excess current from the 12V power supply.  The
> flyback transformer appears to have been damaged.

I recently decided to take another look at a VT220 I've got which
appears to have a bad FBT. Q202 switching transistor has been replaced
and is outputting a 14.7KHz signal but the flyback also seems to draw
too much current and causes the terminal to hiccup.

It appears to be a problem with the primary winding, which has an
inductance of 5.6uH, although has now increased to 6.4uH after smoking
again (I left it on while hiccuping to check that the transistor was
still switching)... If you have an LCR meter I'd be curious to know what
inductance you measure on the primary winding.

I did eventually notice a small crack in the plastic on the primary
winding side. I'm not sure if it is superficial but I suspect this is
where the smoke escaped.

>> 2.	Is there anything I can safely do with a bench power supply to
>> isolate the problem?
>> 3.	Any other suggestions for diagnosing the problem?
>
> One approach to testing flyback transformers seems to be to use a circuit
> that causes them to ring and observing whether the ringing is damped by
> shorted turns.  I've never got around to trying this myself.

If you want to check the secondary winding, there is a diode which has a
high forward bias voltage. If you pass 20v or so through the secondary
and look at it with a volt meter you should see the voltage drop. It
won't conduct at all if the voltage is too low.

>> 4.	There is an outline spec of the flyback transformer in the section
>> 4.4.3.2 of the VAXmate technical description, what chance of finding a
>> "modern" replacement?
>
> I wish you good luck with this.  I never had any luck locating one for my
> VT220 :-(

There were two VT220 designs (I think), using either an onboard or
offboard flyback. The part number of the onboard flyback is 16-26299-01,
and there are some available on eBay if you are feeling rich.

Cheers,
Aaron

(Sorry about the ridiculous footer that will appear below.)


This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
message in error, please contact the sender and delete the email and
attachment. 

Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not
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where permitted by law.





From mattislind at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 09:36:18 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:36:18 +0200
Subject: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
In-Reply-To: <01RJUR9TE6QU8X9I3J@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <00f801d61574$31b08550$95118ff0$@ntlworld.com>
 <01RJUR9TE6QU8X9I3J@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <CABr82SL_FRo-NAFNcA6ouhB6-JKU6EwksLKNHFExYeYAn2JUUw@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> One approach to testing flyback transformers seems to be to use a circuit
> that causes them to ring and observing whether the ringing is damped by
> shorted turns.  I've never got around to trying this myself.
>
>
I have a VT100 that failed with some smoke coming out of the center of the
transformer coil. I tried the ringing test. Here are my results:
http://www.datormuseum.se/peripherals/terminals/vt100

/Mattis


>
>

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat Apr 18 09:40:01 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:40:01 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
In-Reply-To: <01RJUR9TE6QU8X9I3J@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <00f801d61574$31b08550$95118ff0$@ntlworld.com>
 <01RJUR9TE6QU8X9I3J@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <012601d6158f$3e4feba0$baefc2e0$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan
via
> cctalk
> Sent: 18 April 2020 12:57
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
> 
> >
> > Some of you may recall seeing me post about the VAXmate PSU failure.
> > Thanks to members of this list I found the failed part in the PSU and
> > the PSU is now working again. However, it looks like the PSU failed
> > because of a failure on the monitor board. There is a burning smell
> > coming from it, possibly the flyback transformer, but I am not 100%
> > sure. I don't see physical damage, but of course that doesn't mean
> > there isn't a problem. When I took the monitor board out again after
> > this, I wasn't sure if the EHT lead was making good contact with the
> > CRT anode. The monitor board is described in section 4.4 of this
document:
> > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vaxmate/EK-PC500-TD_VAXmate_Technical_Des
> > cripti
> > on_1987.pdf
> >
> 
> Congratulations on getting your PSU failure sorted out.  I suppose you
realise
> this means there will be a line of people wanting you to look at our PSU
> problems the next time we meet up :-)

Given how long it took me to fix this one, I don't think anyone will want to
ask me!


> 
> >
> > I need some advice on diagnosing the problem, I have a few questions:
> >
> > 1.	If the EHT lead was not properly connected to the CRT anode, could
> > that cause problems?
> >
> 
> Possibly.  I have VT220 terminal which was making a smell of ozone when it
> was running which I should have done something about but never got around
> to.
> This could have been due to corona discharge around the CRT anode
> connection or around the flyback transformer but I never found out.
> Eventually, it stopped working, drawing excess current from the 12V power
> supply.  The flyback transformer appears to have been damaged.
> 
> >
> > 2.	Is there anything I can safely do with a bench power supply to
> > isolate the problem?
> > 3.	Any other suggestions for diagnosing the problem?
> >
> 
> One approach to testing flyback transformers seems to be to use a circuit
that
> causes them to ring and observing whether the ringing is damped by shorted
> turns.  I've never got around to trying this myself.
> 
> >
> > 4.	There is an outline spec of the flyback transformer in the section
> > 4.4.3.2 of the VAXmate technical description, what chance of finding a
> > "modern" replacement?
> >
> 
> I wish you good luck with this.  I never had any luck locating one for my
> VT220 :-(
> 
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.
> 
> >
> > I have posted about the PSU repair here:
> >
> >
> >
> > https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/04/18/vaxmate-h7270-psu-fixed-but-
> > no-video/
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat Apr 18 10:09:54 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:09:54 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SJtv1G6iveEggzzVhOpQ00Wj7ZWc+V_NxcruHzRDX9X1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00f801d61574$31b08550$95118ff0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJtv1G6iveEggzzVhOpQ00Wj7ZWc+V_NxcruHzRDX9X1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012c01d61593$6ae92b50$40bb81f0$@ntlworld.com>

I checked Q6 (in circuit), it is not shorted. I have already checked all the electrolytic capacitors for a bad ESR and replaced those where it was high. There are no shorts on the electrolytic capacitors.

 

I will have to desolder the transformer and do a ring test on it (I built a ring test circuit some years ago). I don?t think you can do ring tests in circuit can you?

 

Regards

 

Rob

 

From: Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com> 
Sent: 18 April 2020 13:31
To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video

 

 

 

Den l?r 18 apr. 2020 kl 13:26 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >:

Some of you may recall seeing me post about the VAXmate PSU failure. Thanks
to members of this list I found the failed part in the PSU and the PSU is
now working again. However, it looks like the PSU failed because of a
failure on the monitor board. There is a burning smell coming from it,
possibly the flyback transformer, but I am not 100% sure. I don't see
physical damage, but of course that doesn't mean there isn't a problem. When
I took the monitor board out again after this, I wasn't sure if the EHT lead
was making good contact with the CRT anode. The monitor board is described
in section 4.4 of this document:
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vaxmate/EK-PC500-TD_VAXmate_Technical_Descripti <http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vaxmate/EK-PC500-TD_VAXmate_Technical_Description_1987.pdf> 
on_1987.pdf





I need some advice on diagnosing the problem, I have a few questions:



1.      If the EHT lead was not properly connected to the CRT anode, could
that cause problems?

 

No, that is unlikely in my opinion 

 

2.      Is there anything I can safely do with a bench power supply to
isolate the problem? 

3.      Any other suggestions for diagnosing the problem?

 

Check Q6 transistor. Looking at the picture 4-14, I think it is wrong. But nevertheless check the capacitors C47 and C53.

It happens that the EHT transformer get short-circuit turns. But it has only occurred to me once. More often a capacitor is bad, a rectifier or the switch transistor.

 

If the EHT transformer is bad it performs bad when doing a ringing test.

 

Try to find out what is smelling. Check all power semiconductors.

 

4.      There is an outline spec of the flyback transformer in the section
4.4.3.2 of the VAXmate technical description, what chance of finding a
"modern" replacement?

 

Usually very low. There are companies selling replacements but there are so many variants so the chances to find one is very low. And there are less and less of these on the market. But it is worth a try to check what they have. It might be the case that they used the same monitor design as some other DEC product. VT420? Then it could possible a better chance finding one. donberg.ie <http://donberg.ie>  seem to have VT420 LOPT.

 

/Mattis

 




I have posted about the PSU repair here:



https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/04/18/vaxmate-h7270-psu-fixed-but-no-vid <https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/04/18/vaxmate-h7270-psu-fixed-but-no-video/> 
eo/



Thanks



Rob





From bobsmithofd at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 10:11:58 2020
From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:11:58 -0400
Subject: Looking for a document regarding PDP8
In-Reply-To: <20200417214853.2D444274FD@mx1.ezwind.net>
References: <mailman.1.1587142800.44046.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <20200417214853.2D444274FD@mx1.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <CAHtNYbWH-ODCX4aNYm=kUtV2ynXFmXM5kOBh=dwAgiy11Ca67g@mail.gmail.com>

thanks!

On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 5:48 PM Len Shustek via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> At 10:00 AM 4/17/2020, Bob Smith <bobsmithofd at gmail.com> wrote:
> >...I believe sometime in the late 70s, maybe as late as 1980, a prof
> >associated with UMass wrote a paper describing an extension of the
> >PDP8 called 8/X or 8X.
> >...I believe, my memory is fuzzy, that it was a prof nnmed Stone or
> >Stoner (perhaps Harold S) who lead the effort and had his name on the
> >paper.
>
> That is probably Harold S. Stone, whom I knew as a Stanford prof in
> the early 1970s and did some corporate consulting with. Brilliant
> guy. From 1974 to 1984 he was at UMass Amherst, so your memory isn't
> fuzzy at all. He also worked at the IBM Yorktown Heights research
> center. He was the author of several books and many papers about
> computer architecture, algorithms, and interfaces.
>
> Unfortunately I don't remember him working on a PDP-8 extension, and
> a quick search of the ACM Digital Library turned up nothing. As far
> as I know he's still alive at the age of 82.
>

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat Apr 18 10:13:41 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:13:41 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
In-Reply-To: <91bo8ro287o.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk>
References: <00f801d61574$31b08550$95118ff0$@ntlworld.com>
 <01RJUR9TE6QU8X9I3J@beyondthepale.ie> <91bo8ro287o.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <013101d61593$f2353f40$d69fbdc0$@ntlworld.com>

I don't have an LCR meter but I think it might be a good idea to get one.

Regards

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Aaron Jackson
via
> cctalk
> Sent: 18 April 2020 15:13
> To: Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie>; General Discussion: On-Topic
> and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
> 
> >> 1.	If the EHT lead was not properly connected to the CRT anode, could
> >> that cause problems?
> >
> > Possibly.  I have VT220 terminal which was making a smell of ozone
> > when it was running which I should have done something about but never
got
> around to.
> > This could have been due to corona discharge around the CRT anode
> > connection or around the flyback transformer but I never found out.
> > Eventually, it stopped working, drawing excess current from the 12V
> > power supply.  The flyback transformer appears to have been damaged.
> 
> I recently decided to take another look at a VT220 I've got which appears
to
> have a bad FBT. Q202 switching transistor has been replaced and is
outputting
> a 14.7KHz signal but the flyback also seems to draw too much current and
> causes the terminal to hiccup.
> 
> It appears to be a problem with the primary winding, which has an
inductance
> of 5.6uH, although has now increased to 6.4uH after smoking again (I left
it on
> while hiccuping to check that the transistor was still switching)... If
you have an
> LCR meter I'd be curious to know what inductance you measure on the
primary
> winding.
> 
> I did eventually notice a small crack in the plastic on the primary
winding side.
> I'm not sure if it is superficial but I suspect this is where the smoke
escaped.
> 
> >> 2.	Is there anything I can safely do with a bench power supply to
> >> isolate the problem?
> >> 3.	Any other suggestions for diagnosing the problem?
> >
> > One approach to testing flyback transformers seems to be to use a
> > circuit that causes them to ring and observing whether the ringing is
> > damped by shorted turns.  I've never got around to trying this myself.
> 
> If you want to check the secondary winding, there is a diode which has a
high
> forward bias voltage. If you pass 20v or so through the secondary and look
at it
> with a volt meter you should see the voltage drop. It won't conduct at all
if the
> voltage is too low.
> 
> >> 4.	There is an outline spec of the flyback transformer in the section
> >> 4.4.3.2 of the VAXmate technical description, what chance of finding
> >> a "modern" replacement?
> >
> > I wish you good luck with this.  I never had any luck locating one for
> > my
> > VT220 :-(
> 
> There were two VT220 designs (I think), using either an onboard or
offboard
> flyback. The part number of the onboard flyback is 16-26299-01, and there
are
> some available on eBay if you are feeling rich.
> 
> Cheers,
> Aaron
> 
> (Sorry about the ridiculous footer that will appear below.)
> 
> 
> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and
> may contain confidential information. If you have received this message in
> error, please contact the sender and delete the email and attachment.
> 
> Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not
necessarily
> reflect the views of the University of Nottingham. Email communications
with
> the University of Nottingham may be monitored where permitted by law.
> 
> 



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Apr 18 10:50:31 2020
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:50:31 -0400
Subject: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
In-Reply-To: <012c01d61593$6ae92b50$40bb81f0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <00f801d61574$31b08550$95118ff0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJtv1G6iveEggzzVhOpQ00Wj7ZWc+V_NxcruHzRDX9X1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <012c01d61593$6ae92b50$40bb81f0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <a701c847-f65e-6bc0-41b6-4872f1b590e8@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2020-04-18 11:09 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> I checked Q6 (in circuit), it is not shorted. I have already checked all the electrolytic capacitors for a bad ESR and replaced those where it was high. There are no shorts on the electrolytic capacitors.
> 
>  
> 
> I will have to desolder the transformer and do a ring test on it (I built a ring test circuit some years ago). I don?t think you can do ring tests in circuit can you?
> 

I think more than one of us would be curious about your ring test
circuit design.

I've been slowly learning to design a pwm flyback controller which is
more or less the same thing in principle?

--Toby

>  
> 
> Regards
> 
>  
> 
> Rob
> 
>  
> 
> From: Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com> 
> Sent: 18 April 2020 13:31
> To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Den l?r 18 apr. 2020 kl 13:26 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >:
> 
> Some of you may recall seeing me post about the VAXmate PSU failure. Thanks
> to members of this list I found the failed part in the PSU and the PSU is
> now working again. However, it looks like the PSU failed because of a
> failure on the monitor board. There is a burning smell coming from it,
> possibly the flyback transformer, but I am not 100% sure. I don't see
> physical damage, but of course that doesn't mean there isn't a problem. When
> I took the monitor board out again after this, I wasn't sure if the EHT lead
> was making good contact with the CRT anode. The monitor board is described
> in section 4.4 of this document:
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vaxmate/EK-PC500-TD_VAXmate_Technical_Descripti <http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vaxmate/EK-PC500-TD_VAXmate_Technical_Description_1987.pdf> 
> on_1987.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I need some advice on diagnosing the problem, I have a few questions:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.      If the EHT lead was not properly connected to the CRT anode, could
> that cause problems?
> 
>  
> 
> No, that is unlikely in my opinion 
> 
>  
> 
> 2.      Is there anything I can safely do with a bench power supply to
> isolate the problem? 
> 
> 3.      Any other suggestions for diagnosing the problem?
> 
>  
> 
> Check Q6 transistor. Looking at the picture 4-14, I think it is wrong. But nevertheless check the capacitors C47 and C53.
> 
> It happens that the EHT transformer get short-circuit turns. But it has only occurred to me once. More often a capacitor is bad, a rectifier or the switch transistor.
> 
>  
> 
> If the EHT transformer is bad it performs bad when doing a ringing test.
> 
>  
> 
> Try to find out what is smelling. Check all power semiconductors.
> 
>  
> 
> 4.      There is an outline spec of the flyback transformer in the section
> 4.4.3.2 of the VAXmate technical description, what chance of finding a
> "modern" replacement?
> 
>  
> 
> Usually very low. There are companies selling replacements but there are so many variants so the chances to find one is very low. And there are less and less of these on the market. But it is worth a try to check what they have. It might be the case that they used the same monitor design as some other DEC product. VT420? Then it could possible a better chance finding one. donberg.ie <http://donberg.ie>  seem to have VT420 LOPT.
> 
>  
> 
> /Mattis
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have posted about the PSU repair here:
> 
> 
> 
> https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/04/18/vaxmate-h7270-psu-fixed-but-no-vid <https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/04/18/vaxmate-h7270-psu-fixed-but-no-video/> 
> eo/
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Rob
> 
> 
> 
> 


From rgalliett at surewest.net  Fri Apr 17 20:40:05 2020
From: rgalliett at surewest.net (rgalliett at surewest.net)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:40:05 -0700
Subject: Fwd: ROLM CBX 8000 System Service Manual Vol. 2 Scans Released!
Message-ID: <ft0c31mf3o5fm7416k07nddh.1587173678256@email.lge.com>

Hello. I have both, Rolm CBX System Service Manuals l and ll as well as a Release 8/8001 Student Maintenance Course binder. Are you interested in these??Thank youSent from my LG Phoenix 3, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat Apr 18 11:24:51 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:24:51 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
In-Reply-To: <a701c847-f65e-6bc0-41b6-4872f1b590e8@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <00f801d61574$31b08550$95118ff0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJtv1G6iveEggzzVhOpQ00Wj7ZWc+V_NxcruHzRDX9X1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <012c01d61593$6ae92b50$40bb81f0$@ntlworld.com>
 <a701c847-f65e-6bc0-41b6-4872f1b590e8@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <013401d6159d$e33a0ed0$a9ae2c70$@ntlworld.com>

It is not my design, Tony Duell sent it to me and I think he got it from a magazine many years ago. I will try to find it.

Regards

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
> Sent: 18 April 2020 16:51
> To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General
> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; 'Mattis
> Lind' <mattislind at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
> 
> On 2020-04-18 11:09 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> > I checked Q6 (in circuit), it is not shorted. I have already checked all the
> electrolytic capacitors for a bad ESR and replaced those where it was high.
> There are no shorts on the electrolytic capacitors.
> >
> >
> >
> > I will have to desolder the transformer and do a ring test on it (I built a ring
> test circuit some years ago). I don?t think you can do ring tests in circuit can
> you?
> >
> 
> I think more than one of us would be curious about your ring test circuit design.
> 
> I've been slowly learning to design a pwm flyback controller which is more or
> less the same thing in principle?
> 
> --Toby
> 
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com>
> > Sent: 18 April 2020 13:31
> > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>;
> > General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Den l?r 18 apr. 2020 kl 13:26 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >:
> >
> > Some of you may recall seeing me post about the VAXmate PSU failure.
> > Thanks to members of this list I found the failed part in the PSU and
> > the PSU is now working again. However, it looks like the PSU failed
> > because of a failure on the monitor board. There is a burning smell
> > coming from it, possibly the flyback transformer, but I am not 100%
> > sure. I don't see physical damage, but of course that doesn't mean
> > there isn't a problem. When I took the monitor board out again after
> > this, I wasn't sure if the EHT lead was making good contact with the
> > CRT anode. The monitor board is described in section 4.4 of this document:
> > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vaxmate/EK-PC500-TD_VAXmate_Technical_Des
> > cripti
> > <http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vaxmate/EK-PC500-TD_VAXmate_Technical_De
> > scription_1987.pdf>
> > on_1987.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I need some advice on diagnosing the problem, I have a few questions:
> >
> >
> >
> > 1.      If the EHT lead was not properly connected to the CRT anode, could
> > that cause problems?
> >
> >
> >
> > No, that is unlikely in my opinion
> >
> >
> >
> > 2.      Is there anything I can safely do with a bench power supply to
> > isolate the problem?
> >
> > 3.      Any other suggestions for diagnosing the problem?
> >
> >
> >
> > Check Q6 transistor. Looking at the picture 4-14, I think it is wrong. But
> nevertheless check the capacitors C47 and C53.
> >
> > It happens that the EHT transformer get short-circuit turns. But it has only
> occurred to me once. More often a capacitor is bad, a rectifier or the switch
> transistor.
> >
> >
> >
> > If the EHT transformer is bad it performs bad when doing a ringing test.
> >
> >
> >
> > Try to find out what is smelling. Check all power semiconductors.
> >
> >
> >
> > 4.      There is an outline spec of the flyback transformer in the section
> > 4.4.3.2 of the VAXmate technical description, what chance of finding a
> > "modern" replacement?
> >
> >
> >
> > Usually very low. There are companies selling replacements but there are so
> many variants so the chances to find one is very low. And there are less and
> less of these on the market. But it is worth a try to check what they have. It
> might be the case that they used the same monitor design as some other DEC
> product. VT420? Then it could possible a better chance finding one. donberg.ie
> <http://donberg.ie>  seem to have VT420 LOPT.
> >
> >
> >
> > /Mattis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I have posted about the PSU repair here:
> >
> >
> >
> > https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/04/18/vaxmate-h7270-psu-fixed-but-
> > no-vid
> > <https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/04/18/vaxmate-h7270-psu-fixed-but
> > -no-video/>
> > eo/
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >
> >
> >


From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sat Apr 18 11:46:55 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 12:46:55 -0400
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>

Here's a video of it with sound on.

https://i.imgur.com/X1qVYGP.mp4

C

On 4/18/2020 4:45 AM, Mattis Lind wrote:
> Hello Chris!
> 
> Sorry that your trusty VT52 failed. But it shouldn't be too hard to 
> repair it!
> 
> I have successfully restored a VT52 (actually a VT50 with a brain 
> transplant): http://www.datormuseum.se/home/dec-vt5x. My experience is 
> that the capacitors were in good shape. Especially the bigger filter 
> capacitor. I think that DEC used great quality capacitors.
> 
> It is always a good idea to check the voltages so that they are within 
> the spec. But it should not be necessary to replace all the?capacitors 
> in my opinion.
> 
> The VT52 is a quite interesting design with a very simplistic CPU built 
> from TTL components and a microprogram that has 1024 by 8 bits. Most of 
> the operations inside it is controlled from this program. In mine the 
> sockets for the mikroprogram?were bad which meant that it failed to do 
> anything. Then I had a couple of gates that were bad.
> 
> Den tors 16 apr. 2020 kl 23:07 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk 
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>>:
> 
>     Wonderful: A few weeks ago I forgot to turn off my VT52 and left it
>     running for a day or two. Now the screen is filled with snow and it
>     looks like the text is all over the place horozontally.
> 
> 
> It would be great to have a picture since it could give some hints on 
> what is wrong with it. My understanding is that the scan is working both 
> horizontally and vertically. Otherwise you would only have a straight 
> line. Unlike many common CRTs this CRT circuitry has no oscillator?in it 
> that creates a picture without input. And since the horisontal 
> deflection?circuit also creates?the high voltage there would be no 
> picture at all unless the horisontal signal is there.
> 
> This means that the two control boards in the bottom creates some kind 
> of horisontal and vertical signals. These signals comes from a simple 
> divider chain. There could be some kind of problem in the divider chain. 
> But then it would be more likely to not work at all if one of the 
> counters are bad. But it is a good idea to check the H and V signal som 
> they are inline with the spec. Around 15kHz and 60 or 50 Hz respectively.
> 
> Since I haven't seen how the output?looks like I speculating a bit. It 
> could be the case that the divider chain is correct but the video signal 
> is not?generated in sync with the divider chain. Then the characters 
> would end up all over the place on screen.
> 
> There is a flip-flip, made out of a 7400 (E16) and 74H10 (E14) that is 
> the video flip-flop. It controls when the screen is rendered. It might 
> be the?case it could?cause your problem. I think it is a? good idea to 
> check the signals around this flip-flop.
> 
> I am always a bit skeptical towards 74Hxx. My impression is that they 
> fail more often than standard 74xx.
> 
> When I repaired my VT52 I made a quick circuit that created a composite 
> video signal from the control board. The signal was fed into a standard 
> CRT monitor which I had around.? I could then run the control boards 
> flat on the bench to take measurements rather than assembling prior to 
> each test. I thought that it was quite handy.
> 
> 
>     Any tips or thoughts on where to start looking to fix? The keyboard
>     seems to be working as does the RS232 input (the snow on the screen
>     changes when the pdp11 talks to it)
> 
> 
> This indicate that since you are using RS232 you have at least some kind 
> of voltage level on?+12 V and -12 V since otherwise there would be no 
> communication. And?+5V is probably not that bad either. Since not much 
> would operate in that case. Likewise the -5V is probably ok since the 
> char rom would not work very well without the bias.
> 
> Good luck with your repair!
> 
> /Mattis
> 
> 
>     Thanks!
>     Chris
> 

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat Apr 18 12:03:34 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 18:03:34 +0100
Subject: Another Unrelated PSU Question
Message-ID: <014101d615a3$4ba69830$e2f3c890$@ntlworld.com>

I have another PSU I have been meaning to look at for a long time. This one
has fairly high output ripple and some of the voltages do not appear to be
where they should be. I have checked all the capacitors for ESR and they
appear to be OK, with the exception of the two big smoothing capacitors on
the primary side. One of them appears to be slightly bulging, but has
low-ish ESR, the other has a much higher ESR. Is it possible that these
capacitors could be the cause of the out-of-spec outputs?

 

Thanks

 

Rob


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat Apr 18 12:05:36 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 18:05:36 +0100
Subject: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
In-Reply-To: <013401d6159d$e33a0ed0$a9ae2c70$@ntlworld.com>
References: <00f801d61574$31b08550$95118ff0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CABr82SJtv1G6iveEggzzVhOpQ00Wj7ZWc+V_NxcruHzRDX9X1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <012c01d61593$6ae92b50$40bb81f0$@ntlworld.com>
 <a701c847-f65e-6bc0-41b6-4872f1b590e8@telegraphics.com.au>
 <013401d6159d$e33a0ed0$a9ae2c70$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <014601d615a3$947f6dc0$bd7e4940$@ntlworld.com>

This is the circuit: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/transformerringingtester.png

Regards

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
> Sent: 18 April 2020 17:25
> To: 'Toby Thain' <toby at telegraphics.com.au>; rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General
> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; 'Mattis
> Lind' <mattislind at gmail.com>
> Subject: RE: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
> 
> It is not my design, Tony Duell sent it to me and I think he got it from a
> magazine many years ago. I will try to find it.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
> > Sent: 18 April 2020 16:51
> > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>;
> > General
> > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>;
> > 'Mattis Lind' <mattislind at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
> >
> > On 2020-04-18 11:09 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> > > I checked Q6 (in circuit), it is not shorted. I have already checked
> > > all the
> > electrolytic capacitors for a bad ESR and replaced those where it was high.
> > There are no shorts on the electrolytic capacitors.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I will have to desolder the transformer and do a ring test on it (I
> > > built a ring
> > test circuit some years ago). I don?t think you can do ring tests in
> > circuit can you?
> > >
> >
> > I think more than one of us would be curious about your ring test circuit
> design.
> >
> > I've been slowly learning to design a pwm flyback controller which is
> > more or less the same thing in principle?
> >
> > --Toby
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rob
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com>
> > > Sent: 18 April 2020 13:31
> > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>;
> > > General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > > Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Den l?r 18 apr. 2020 kl 13:26 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >:
> > >
> > > Some of you may recall seeing me post about the VAXmate PSU failure.
> > > Thanks to members of this list I found the failed part in the PSU
> > > and the PSU is now working again. However, it looks like the PSU
> > > failed because of a failure on the monitor board. There is a burning
> > > smell coming from it, possibly the flyback transformer, but I am not
> > > 100% sure. I don't see physical damage, but of course that doesn't
> > > mean there isn't a problem. When I took the monitor board out again
> > > after this, I wasn't sure if the EHT lead was making good contact
> > > with the CRT anode. The monitor board is described in section 4.4 of this
> document:
> > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vaxmate/EK-PC500-TD_VAXmate_Technical_D
> > > es
> > > cripti
> > > <http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vaxmate/EK-PC500-TD_VAXmate_Technical_
> > > De
> > > scription_1987.pdf>
> > > on_1987.pdf
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I need some advice on diagnosing the problem, I have a few questions:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 1.      If the EHT lead was not properly connected to the CRT anode, could
> > > that cause problems?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > No, that is unlikely in my opinion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2.      Is there anything I can safely do with a bench power supply to
> > > isolate the problem?
> > >
> > > 3.      Any other suggestions for diagnosing the problem?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Check Q6 transistor. Looking at the picture 4-14, I think it is
> > > wrong. But
> > nevertheless check the capacitors C47 and C53.
> > >
> > > It happens that the EHT transformer get short-circuit turns. But it
> > > has only
> > occurred to me once. More often a capacitor is bad, a rectifier or the
> > switch transistor.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If the EHT transformer is bad it performs bad when doing a ringing test.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Try to find out what is smelling. Check all power semiconductors.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 4.      There is an outline spec of the flyback transformer in the section
> > > 4.4.3.2 of the VAXmate technical description, what chance of finding
> > > a "modern" replacement?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Usually very low. There are companies selling replacements but there
> > > are so
> > many variants so the chances to find one is very low. And there are
> > less and less of these on the market. But it is worth a try to check
> > what they have. It might be the case that they used the same monitor
> > design as some other DEC product. VT420? Then it could possible a
> > better chance finding one. donberg.ie <http://donberg.ie>  seem to have
> VT420 LOPT.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > /Mattis
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I have posted about the PSU repair here:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/04/18/vaxmate-h7270-psu-fixed-bu
> > > t-
> > > no-vid
> > > <https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/04/18/vaxmate-h7270-psu-fixed-b
> > > ut
> > > -no-video/>
> > > eo/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rob
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >


From imp at bsdimp.com  Sat Apr 18 12:07:11 2020
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:07:11 -0600
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 10:47 AM Chris Zach via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Here's a video of it with sound on.
>
> https://i.imgur.com/X1qVYGP.mp4


We had a VT52 do something akin to that once back in the day... The tech we
had that worked on this stuff said he had to fix something in the vertical
refresh circuit to achieve vertical hold... My vague memories likely won't
help you much, but this is quite distinctive and others of the group will
be able to suggest things :)

Warner


>
> C
>
> On 4/18/2020 4:45 AM, Mattis Lind wrote:
> > Hello Chris!
> >
> > Sorry that your trusty VT52 failed. But it shouldn't be too hard to
> > repair it!
> >
> > I have successfully restored a VT52 (actually a VT50 with a brain
> > transplant): http://www.datormuseum.se/home/dec-vt5x. My experience is
> > that the capacitors were in good shape. Especially the bigger filter
> > capacitor. I think that DEC used great quality capacitors.
> >
> > It is always a good idea to check the voltages so that they are within
> > the spec. But it should not be necessary to replace all the capacitors
> > in my opinion.
> >
> > The VT52 is a quite interesting design with a very simplistic CPU built
> > from TTL components and a microprogram that has 1024 by 8 bits. Most of
> > the operations inside it is controlled from this program. In mine the
> > sockets for the mikroprogram were bad which meant that it failed to do
> > anything. Then I had a couple of gates that were bad.
> >
> > Den tors 16 apr. 2020 kl 23:07 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>>:
> >
> >     Wonderful: A few weeks ago I forgot to turn off my VT52 and left it
> >     running for a day or two. Now the screen is filled with snow and it
> >     looks like the text is all over the place horozontally.
> >
> >
> > It would be great to have a picture since it could give some hints on
> > what is wrong with it. My understanding is that the scan is working both
> > horizontally and vertically. Otherwise you would only have a straight
> > line. Unlike many common CRTs this CRT circuitry has no oscillator in it
> > that creates a picture without input. And since the horisontal
> > deflection circuit also creates the high voltage there would be no
> > picture at all unless the horisontal signal is there.
> >
> > This means that the two control boards in the bottom creates some kind
> > of horisontal and vertical signals. These signals comes from a simple
> > divider chain. There could be some kind of problem in the divider chain.
> > But then it would be more likely to not work at all if one of the
> > counters are bad. But it is a good idea to check the H and V signal som
> > they are inline with the spec. Around 15kHz and 60 or 50 Hz respectively.
> >
> > Since I haven't seen how the output looks like I speculating a bit. It
> > could be the case that the divider chain is correct but the video signal
> > is not generated in sync with the divider chain. Then the characters
> > would end up all over the place on screen.
> >
> > There is a flip-flip, made out of a 7400 (E16) and 74H10 (E14) that is
> > the video flip-flop. It controls when the screen is rendered. It might
> > be the case it could cause your problem. I think it is a  good idea to
> > check the signals around this flip-flop.
> >
> > I am always a bit skeptical towards 74Hxx. My impression is that they
> > fail more often than standard 74xx.
> >
> > When I repaired my VT52 I made a quick circuit that created a composite
> > video signal from the control board. The signal was fed into a standard
> > CRT monitor which I had around.  I could then run the control boards
> > flat on the bench to take measurements rather than assembling prior to
> > each test. I thought that it was quite handy.
> >
> >
> >     Any tips or thoughts on where to start looking to fix? The keyboard
> >     seems to be working as does the RS232 input (the snow on the screen
> >     changes when the pdp11 talks to it)
> >
> >
> > This indicate that since you are using RS232 you have at least some kind
> > of voltage level on +12 V and -12 V since otherwise there would be no
> > communication. And +5V is probably not that bad either. Since not much
> > would operate in that case. Likewise the -5V is probably ok since the
> > char rom would not work very well without the bias.
> >
> > Good luck with your repair!
> >
> > /Mattis
> >
> >
> >     Thanks!
> >     Chris
> >
>

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Sat Apr 18 12:23:03 2020
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 18:23:03 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: Another Unrelated PSU Question
In-Reply-To: <014101d615a3$4ba69830$e2f3c890$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <01RJV2ER9NKK8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> I have another PSU I have been meaning to look at for a long time. This one
> has fairly high output ripple and some of the voltages do not appear to be
> where they should be. I have checked all the capacitors for ESR and they
> appear to be OK, with the exception of the two big smoothing capacitors on
> the primary side. One of them appears to be slightly bulging, but has
> low-ish ESR, the other has a much higher ESR. Is it possible that these
> capacitors could be the cause of the out-of-spec outputs?
>

In my experience, the next step after bulging is either leaking and a sticky
mess on whatever is underneath or a big bang and sticky mess everywhere.
I'd get rid of the bulging one even if it seems otherwise good, epecially if
leaving it powered for anything other than very short periods.  It will
probably heat up over time and build more pressure.

The high ESR capacitor can't really be contributing much to smoothing so
I think it needs to be replaced before any further investigating can be done.
With any luck, that might sort out all the issues but even if it doesn't, it
would have to have been eliminated anyway.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan

> 
> Thanks
> 
>  
> 
> Rob
> 

From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Sat Apr 18 12:57:31 2020
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:57:31 -0700
Subject: Another Unrelated PSU Question
In-Reply-To: <014101d615a3$4ba69830$e2f3c890$@ntlworld.com>
References: <014101d615a3$4ba69830$e2f3c890$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <E3A1E898-D940-49BA-B359-C5CE7BA37D38@shaw.ca>

On 2020-Apr-18, at 10:03 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> I have another PSU I have been meaning to look at for a long time. This one
> has fairly high output ripple and some of the voltages do not appear to be
> where they should be. I have checked all the capacitors for ESR and they
> appear to be OK, with the exception of the two big smoothing capacitors on
> the primary side. One of them appears to be slightly bulging, but has
> low-ish ESR, the other has a much higher ESR. Is it possible that these
> capacitors could be the cause of the out-of-spec outputs?

What frequency is the ripple - mains frequency (50/60Hz) or switching frequency?

If the ripple is at mains frequency then, yes, the problem could be the mains/primary filtering. (Primary supply drooping far enough across mains cycles that the switcher is affected and unable to maintain drive.)

Either way, you could scope the primary supply under operation (some load), to see what the ripple there looks like.


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Sat Apr 18 12:54:40 2020
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 18:54:40 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: VAXmate PSU fixed, but no video
In-Reply-To: <91bo8ro287o.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk>
References: <00f801d61574$31b08550$95118ff0$@ntlworld.com>
 <01RJUR9TE6QU8X9I3J@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <01RJV4FF59SA8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> There were two VT220 designs (I think), using either an onboard or
> offboard flyback. The part number of the onboard flyback is 16-26299-01,
> and there are some available on eBay if you are feeling rich.
>

I don't want to hijack Rob's thread too much :-)

I actually have one of each design and the one with the offboard transformer
(I think) works. The board layouts are different but the components seem
to be the same.  It is hard to be sure whether the only differences between
the transformers relate to their mounting arrangements.  I tried swapped some
of the HV components back and forth between them to eliminate them from
suspicion.  I didn't dare try swapping the transformers in case they are
not electrically identical and because I didn't want a fault elsewhere in
the bad terminal damaging what is probably my only good transformer.

I have the part number for the other type of transformer somewhere but
I can't locate it right now...

Regards,
Peter Coghlan

>
> Cheers,
> Aaron
> 

From peter at vanpeborgh.eu  Sat Apr 18 11:51:44 2020
From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:51:44 +0100
Subject: Unusual Punched Cards
Message-ID: <011501d615a1$a4e24ae0$eea6e0a0$@vanpeborgh.eu>


Guys,

I have been collecting all types of computer punched cards for a few years
now. In the distant past I actually used them!

I am desperately looking for two types I do not have been able to find a
sample of:
*	Jacquard fabric/carpet loom cards. OK, not computer but the
ancestor, for completeness of the history. There may be several formats of
these.
*	Original Hollerith card, 12 rows by 24 columns. Once again, this is
a long shot.

Well if you don't ask, you never get! Thank you for your interest. Peter



From mattislind at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 13:52:17 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:52:17 +0200
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82SJZ-S6KJo+vebwd5CTKvxRbAiWzZ5jNrFbGjDh16NA+xw@mail.gmail.com>

l?rdag 18 april 2020 skrev Chris Zach <cz at alembic.crystel.com>:

> Here's a video of it with sound on.
>
> https://i.imgur.com/X1qVYGP.mp4


You have video even in the horisontal retrace. I still think you have a
problem somewhere around the video flip flop. Check that part of the
circuit.

/Mattis


>
> C
>
> On 4/18/2020 4:45 AM, Mattis Lind wrote:
>
>> Hello Chris!
>>
>> Sorry that your trusty VT52 failed. But it shouldn't be too hard to
>> repair it!
>>
>> I have successfully restored a VT52 (actually a VT50 with a brain
>> transplant): http://www.datormuseum.se/home/dec-vt5x. My experience is
>> that the capacitors were in good shape. Especially the bigger filter
>> capacitor. I think that DEC used great quality capacitors.
>>
>> It is always a good idea to check the voltages so that they are within
>> the spec. But it should not be necessary to replace all the capacitors in
>> my opinion.
>>
>> The VT52 is a quite interesting design with a very simplistic CPU built
>> from TTL components and a microprogram that has 1024 by 8 bits. Most of the
>> operations inside it is controlled from this program. In mine the sockets
>> for the mikroprogram were bad which meant that it failed to do anything.
>> Then I had a couple of gates that were bad.
>>
>> Den tors 16 apr. 2020 kl 23:07 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>>:
>>
>>     Wonderful: A few weeks ago I forgot to turn off my VT52 and left it
>>     running for a day or two. Now the screen is filled with snow and it
>>     looks like the text is all over the place horozontally.
>>
>>
>> It would be great to have a picture since it could give some hints on
>> what is wrong with it. My understanding is that the scan is working both
>> horizontally and vertically. Otherwise you would only have a straight line.
>> Unlike many common CRTs this CRT circuitry has no oscillator in it that
>> creates a picture without input. And since the horisontal
>> deflection circuit also creates the high voltage there would be no picture
>> at all unless the horisontal signal is there.
>>
>> This means that the two control boards in the bottom creates some kind of
>> horisontal and vertical signals. These signals comes from a simple divider
>> chain. There could be some kind of problem in the divider chain. But then
>> it would be more likely to not work at all if one of the counters are bad.
>> But it is a good idea to check the H and V signal som they are inline with
>> the spec. Around 15kHz and 60 or 50 Hz respectively.
>>
>> Since I haven't seen how the output looks like I speculating a bit. It
>> could be the case that the divider chain is correct but the video signal is
>> not generated in sync with the divider chain. Then the characters would end
>> up all over the place on screen.
>>
>> There is a flip-flip, made out of a 7400 (E16) and 74H10 (E14) that is
>> the video flip-flop. It controls when the screen is rendered. It might be
>> the case it could cause your problem. I think it is a  good idea to check
>> the signals around this flip-flop.
>>
>> I am always a bit skeptical towards 74Hxx. My impression is that they
>> fail more often than standard 74xx.
>>
>> When I repaired my VT52 I made a quick circuit that created a composite
>> video signal from the control board. The signal was fed into a standard CRT
>> monitor which I had around.  I could then run the control boards flat on
>> the bench to take measurements rather than assembling prior to each test. I
>> thought that it was quite handy.
>>
>>
>>     Any tips or thoughts on where to start looking to fix? The keyboard
>>     seems to be working as does the RS232 input (the snow on the screen
>>     changes when the pdp11 talks to it)
>>
>>
>> This indicate that since you are using RS232 you have at least some kind
>> of voltage level on +12 V and -12 V since otherwise there would be no
>> communication. And +5V is probably not that bad either. Since not much
>> would operate in that case. Likewise the -5V is probably ok since the char
>> rom would not work very well without the bias.
>>
>> Good luck with your repair!
>>
>> /Mattis
>>
>>
>>     Thanks!
>>     Chris
>>
>>

From mattislind at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 14:00:59 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 21:00:59 +0200
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>

> We had a VT52 do something akin to that once back in the day... The tech
> we had that worked on this stuff said he had to fix something in the
> vertical refresh circuit to achieve vertical hold... My vague memories
> likely won't help you much, but this is quite distinctive and others of the
> group will be able to suggest things :)
>

Vertical hold implies that there is an oscillator that need to get into
hold or lock with an incoming signal.  There is none in a VT52 so that is
not possible. There is simply no way to adjust vertical hold in a VT52.

/Mattis


> Warner
>
>
>>
>> C
>>
>> On 4/18/2020 4:45 AM, Mattis Lind wrote:
>> > Hello Chris!
>> >
>> > Sorry that your trusty VT52 failed. But it shouldn't be too hard to
>> > repair it!
>> >
>> > I have successfully restored a VT52 (actually a VT50 with a brain
>> > transplant): http://www.datormuseum.se/home/dec-vt5x. My experience is
>> > that the capacitors were in good shape. Especially the bigger filter
>> > capacitor. I think that DEC used great quality capacitors.
>> >
>> > It is always a good idea to check the voltages so that they are within
>> > the spec. But it should not be necessary to replace all the capacitors
>> > in my opinion.
>> >
>> > The VT52 is a quite interesting design with a very simplistic CPU built
>> > from TTL components and a microprogram that has 1024 by 8 bits. Most of
>> > the operations inside it is controlled from this program. In mine the
>> > sockets for the mikroprogram were bad which meant that it failed to do
>> > anything. Then I had a couple of gates that were bad.
>> >
>> > Den tors 16 apr. 2020 kl 23:07 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk
>> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>>:
>> >
>> >     Wonderful: A few weeks ago I forgot to turn off my VT52 and left it
>> >     running for a day or two. Now the screen is filled with snow and it
>> >     looks like the text is all over the place horozontally.
>> >
>> >
>> > It would be great to have a picture since it could give some hints on
>> > what is wrong with it. My understanding is that the scan is working
>> both
>> > horizontally and vertically. Otherwise you would only have a straight
>> > line. Unlike many common CRTs this CRT circuitry has no oscillator in
>> it
>> > that creates a picture without input. And since the horisontal
>> > deflection circuit also creates the high voltage there would be no
>> > picture at all unless the horisontal signal is there.
>> >
>> > This means that the two control boards in the bottom creates some kind
>> > of horisontal and vertical signals. These signals comes from a simple
>> > divider chain. There could be some kind of problem in the divider
>> chain.
>> > But then it would be more likely to not work at all if one of the
>> > counters are bad. But it is a good idea to check the H and V signal som
>> > they are inline with the spec. Around 15kHz and 60 or 50 Hz
>> respectively.
>> >
>> > Since I haven't seen how the output looks like I speculating a bit. It
>> > could be the case that the divider chain is correct but the video
>> signal
>> > is not generated in sync with the divider chain. Then the characters
>> > would end up all over the place on screen.
>> >
>> > There is a flip-flip, made out of a 7400 (E16) and 74H10 (E14) that is
>> > the video flip-flop. It controls when the screen is rendered. It might
>> > be the case it could cause your problem. I think it is a  good idea to
>> > check the signals around this flip-flop.
>> >
>> > I am always a bit skeptical towards 74Hxx. My impression is that they
>> > fail more often than standard 74xx.
>> >
>> > When I repaired my VT52 I made a quick circuit that created a composite
>> > video signal from the control board. The signal was fed into a standard
>> > CRT monitor which I had around.  I could then run the control boards
>> > flat on the bench to take measurements rather than assembling prior to
>> > each test. I thought that it was quite handy.
>> >
>> >
>> >     Any tips or thoughts on where to start looking to fix? The keyboard
>> >     seems to be working as does the RS232 input (the snow on the screen
>> >     changes when the pdp11 talks to it)
>> >
>> >
>> > This indicate that since you are using RS232 you have at least some
>> kind
>> > of voltage level on +12 V and -12 V since otherwise there would be no
>> > communication. And +5V is probably not that bad either. Since not much
>> > would operate in that case. Likewise the -5V is probably ok since the
>> > char rom would not work very well without the bias.
>> >
>> > Good luck with your repair!
>> >
>> > /Mattis
>> >
>> >
>> >     Thanks!
>> >     Chris
>> >
>>
>

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat Apr 18 14:23:05 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:23:05 +0100
Subject: Another Unrelated PSU Question
In-Reply-To: <E3A1E898-D940-49BA-B359-C5CE7BA37D38@shaw.ca>
References: <014101d615a3$4ba69830$e2f3c890$@ntlworld.com>
 <E3A1E898-D940-49BA-B359-C5CE7BA37D38@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <016401d615b6$c965ee20$5c31ca60$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert
via
> cctalk
> Sent: 18 April 2020 18:58
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Another Unrelated PSU Question
> 
> On 2020-Apr-18, at 10:03 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> > I have another PSU I have been meaning to look at for a long time.
> > This one has fairly high output ripple and some of the voltages do not
> > appear to be where they should be. I have checked all the capacitors
> > for ESR and they appear to be OK, with the exception of the two big
> > smoothing capacitors on the primary side. One of them appears to be
> > slightly bulging, but has low-ish ESR, the other has a much higher
> > ESR. Is it possible that these capacitors could be the cause of the
out-of-spec
> outputs?
> 
> What frequency is the ripple - mains frequency (50/60Hz) or switching
> frequency?

It looked like switching frequency to me. I think I should replace the two
primary capacitors anyway though.

> 
> If the ripple is at mains frequency then, yes, the problem could be the
> mains/primary filtering. (Primary supply drooping far enough across mains
> cycles that the switcher is affected and unable to maintain drive.)
> 
> Either way, you could scope the primary supply under operation (some
load), to
> see what the ripple there looks like.

I daren't put it under load in the machine itself because some of the
outputs are too far out of tolerance and it has damaged some memory modules.
I can use the load module I have from a MicroVAX 2000, but for the other
outputs I may try to lash up some resistors perhaps.

If anyone has a MicroVAX 3100 Model 95, I would really like to know which
wires on the connector are which voltage, because some seem to be too far
out to identify the nominal voltage.

Regards

Rob


From imp at bsdimp.com  Sat Apr 18 15:35:18 2020
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:35:18 -0600
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 18, 2020, 1:01 PM Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>> We had a VT52 do something akin to that once back in the day... The tech
>> we had that worked on this stuff said he had to fix something in the
>> vertical refresh circuit to achieve vertical hold... My vague memories
>> likely won't help you much, but this is quite distinctive and others of the
>> group will be able to suggest things :)
>>
>
> Vertical hold implies that there is an oscillator that need to get into
> hold or lock with an incoming signal.  There is none in a VT52 so that is
> not possible. There is simply no way to adjust vertical hold in a VT52.
>

Told you my memory sucked...

Warner

/Mattis
>
>
>> Warner
>>
>>
>>>
>>> C
>>>
>>> On 4/18/2020 4:45 AM, Mattis Lind wrote:
>>> > Hello Chris!
>>> >
>>> > Sorry that your trusty VT52 failed. But it shouldn't be too hard to
>>> > repair it!
>>> >
>>> > I have successfully restored a VT52 (actually a VT50 with a brain
>>> > transplant): http://www.datormuseum.se/home/dec-vt5x. My experience
>>> is
>>> > that the capacitors were in good shape. Especially the bigger filter
>>> > capacitor. I think that DEC used great quality capacitors.
>>> >
>>> > It is always a good idea to check the voltages so that they are within
>>> > the spec. But it should not be necessary to replace all the capacitors
>>> > in my opinion.
>>> >
>>> > The VT52 is a quite interesting design with a very simplistic CPU
>>> built
>>> > from TTL components and a microprogram that has 1024 by 8 bits. Most
>>> of
>>> > the operations inside it is controlled from this program. In mine the
>>> > sockets for the mikroprogram were bad which meant that it failed to do
>>> > anything. Then I had a couple of gates that were bad.
>>> >
>>> > Den tors 16 apr. 2020 kl 23:07 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk
>>> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>>:
>>> >
>>> >     Wonderful: A few weeks ago I forgot to turn off my VT52 and left it
>>> >     running for a day or two. Now the screen is filled with snow and it
>>> >     looks like the text is all over the place horozontally.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > It would be great to have a picture since it could give some hints on
>>> > what is wrong with it. My understanding is that the scan is working
>>> both
>>> > horizontally and vertically. Otherwise you would only have a straight
>>> > line. Unlike many common CRTs this CRT circuitry has no oscillator in
>>> it
>>> > that creates a picture without input. And since the horisontal
>>> > deflection circuit also creates the high voltage there would be no
>>> > picture at all unless the horisontal signal is there.
>>> >
>>> > This means that the two control boards in the bottom creates some kind
>>> > of horisontal and vertical signals. These signals comes from a simple
>>> > divider chain. There could be some kind of problem in the divider
>>> chain.
>>> > But then it would be more likely to not work at all if one of the
>>> > counters are bad. But it is a good idea to check the H and V signal
>>> som
>>> > they are inline with the spec. Around 15kHz and 60 or 50 Hz
>>> respectively.
>>> >
>>> > Since I haven't seen how the output looks like I speculating a bit. It
>>> > could be the case that the divider chain is correct but the video
>>> signal
>>> > is not generated in sync with the divider chain. Then the characters
>>> > would end up all over the place on screen.
>>> >
>>> > There is a flip-flip, made out of a 7400 (E16) and 74H10 (E14) that is
>>> > the video flip-flop. It controls when the screen is rendered. It might
>>> > be the case it could cause your problem. I think it is a  good idea to
>>> > check the signals around this flip-flop.
>>> >
>>> > I am always a bit skeptical towards 74Hxx. My impression is that they
>>> > fail more often than standard 74xx.
>>> >
>>> > When I repaired my VT52 I made a quick circuit that created a
>>> composite
>>> > video signal from the control board. The signal was fed into a
>>> standard
>>> > CRT monitor which I had around.  I could then run the control boards
>>> > flat on the bench to take measurements rather than assembling prior to
>>> > each test. I thought that it was quite handy.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >     Any tips or thoughts on where to start looking to fix? The keyboard
>>> >     seems to be working as does the RS232 input (the snow on the screen
>>> >     changes when the pdp11 talks to it)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > This indicate that since you are using RS232 you have at least some
>>> kind
>>> > of voltage level on +12 V and -12 V since otherwise there would be no
>>> > communication. And +5V is probably not that bad either. Since not much
>>> > would operate in that case. Likewise the -5V is probably ok since the
>>> > char rom would not work very well without the bias.
>>> >
>>> > Good luck with your repair!
>>> >
>>> > /Mattis
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >     Thanks!
>>> >     Chris
>>> >
>>>
>>

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sat Apr 18 17:56:09 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 18:56:09 -0400
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>

Well, let's see: I took the bottom off the VT52 and checked the 
connections to the high voltage board on the back. Cleaned up both 
connectors, plugged in, same problem.

I do hear a medium to high pitched squeal coming from the back board. 
Can't quite triangulate it (I need a hose and some time) but it might be 
coming from those center transistors. Any idea what these boards are 
doing, and if there is a schematic for these circuits?

Given that it went weird after being powered on for awhile I would 
suspect it has something to do with a component that generates heat. I 
could also take an IR picture of the back board and see if anything is 
unusually hot/not hot.

Audio of the noise: https://i.imgur.com/ps4Ovkj.mp4
Pic of the back: https://i.imgur.com/HgNoTYK.jpg

C

From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 14:13:53 2020
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:13:53 -0400
Subject: Unusual Punched Cards (Peter Van Peborgh)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1587229200.99974.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1587229200.99974.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=_fqrF=soWns=iP7ZH_Myf3KBLQXv64pCahd2Xp-BjwYQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Guys,
>
> I have been collecting all types of computer punched cards for a few years
> now. In the distant past I actually used them!
>
> I am desperately looking for two types I do not have been able to find a
> sample of:
> *       Jacquard fabric/carpet loom cards. OK, not computer but the
> ancestor, for completeness of the history. There may be several formats of
> these.
>
>
Something like this?
http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/interesting_computer_items/jacquard-loom-cards


-- 
Michael Thompson

From brianb1224 at aol.com  Sat Apr 18 14:24:25 2020
From: brianb1224 at aol.com (brianb1224)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:24:25 -0500
Subject: Unusual Punched Cards (Peter Van Peborgh)
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=_fqrF=soWns=iP7ZH_Myf3KBLQXv64pCahd2Xp-BjwYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200418192430.A3C9D4E77C@mx2.ezwind.net>

There is a lady who collects them also plus the wooden blooms usually at the renaissance festivals. Sorry I forgot her name.Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Michael Thompson via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> Date: 4/18/20  2:14 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Unusual Punched Cards (Peter Van Peborgh) >> Guys,>> I have been collecting all types of computer punched cards for a few years> now. In the distant past I actually used them!>> I am desperately looking for two types I do not have been able to find a> sample of:> *?????? Jacquard fabric/carpet loom cards. OK, not computer but the> ancestor, for completeness of the history. There may be several formats of> these.>>Something like this?http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/interesting_computer_items/jacquard-loom-cards-- Michael Thompson

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 14:48:52 2020
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:48:52 -0400
Subject: Unusual Punched Cards
In-Reply-To: <011501d615a1$a4e24ae0$eea6e0a0$@vanpeborgh.eu>
References: <011501d615a1$a4e24ae0$eea6e0a0$@vanpeborgh.eu>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfScKWbM1QiBx7L9jVBCwgSccLYu5ruH+-_mX+3LmuUJQ@mail.gmail.com>

> I am desperately looking for two types I do not have been able to find a
> sample of:
> *       Jacquard fabric/carpet loom cards. OK, not computer but the
> ancestor, for completeness of the history. There may be several formats of
> these.

I donated my Jacquard punch to Techworks in Binghamton NY. I forget
what the format is. You might ask them. It is likely I will not be
there for a while

I did a video (on Youtube). I think it is called "A Most Unusual Card
Punch" or something like that.

--
Will


--
Will

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sat Apr 18 15:51:54 2020
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:51:54 -0400
Subject: Unusual Punched Cards
In-Reply-To: <011501d615a1$a4e24ae0$eea6e0a0$@vanpeborgh.eu>
References: <011501d615a1$a4e24ae0$eea6e0a0$@vanpeborgh.eu>
Message-ID: <A545A2B6-9CB3-4E43-9A19-671833049096@comcast.net>



> On Apr 18, 2020, at 12:51 PM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Guys,
> 
> I have been collecting all types of computer punched cards for a few years
> now. In the distant past I actually used them!
> 
> I am desperately looking for two types I do not have been able to find a
> sample of:
> *	Jacquard fabric/carpet loom cards. OK, not computer but the
> ancestor, for completeness of the history. There may be several formats of
> these.

Did you already get a street organ "book"?  Similar to punched cards in a way, though semi-analog (the time element is analog).

	paul



From Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 18 18:33:06 2020
From: Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne Sudol)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:33:06 -0700
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB5223610A8F6E808F1B6BC9A4E4D60@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Here's a link to the vt52 maintenance manual. Has testing and service info. Hope it helps.

 http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/terminal/vt52/EK-VT52-MM-002_maint_Jul78.pdf

Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Zach via cctalk
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2020 3:56 PM
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Great, my VT52 is shot.

Well, let's see: I took the bottom off the VT52 and checked the connections to the high voltage board on the back. Cleaned up both connectors, plugged in, same problem.

I do hear a medium to high pitched squeal coming from the back board. 
Can't quite triangulate it (I need a hose and some time) but it might be coming from those center transistors. Any idea what these boards are doing, and if there is a schematic for these circuits?

Given that it went weird after being powered on for awhile I would suspect it has something to do with a component that generates heat. I could also take an IR picture of the back board and see if anything is unusually hot/not hot.

Audio of the noise: https://i.imgur.com/ps4Ovkj.mp4 Pic of the back: https://i.imgur.com/HgNoTYK.jpg

C


From mattislind at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 00:54:12 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 07:54:12 +0200
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>

s?ndag 19 april 2020 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>:

> Well, let's see: I took the bottom off the VT52 and checked the
> connections to the high voltage board on the back. Cleaned up both
> connectors, plugged in, same problem.
>
> I do hear a medium to high pitched squeal coming from the back board.
> Can't quite triangulate it (I need a hose and some time) but it might be
> coming from those center transistors. Any idea what these boards are doing,
> and if there is a schematic for these circuits?


The left is the video /CRT part. The right is the power supply part. The
transistors are mostly regulator transistors.

I have linked to both maintenance manual and schematic from the page I
referred to in one of my previous replies to this thread.
http://www.datormuseum.se/home/dec-vt5x

Take a look there!

/Mattis



> Given that it went weird after being powered on for awhile I would suspect
> it has something to do with a component that generates heat. I could also
> take an IR picture of the back board and see if anything is unusually
> hot/not hot.
>
> Audio of the noise: https://i.imgur.com/ps4Ovkj.mp4
> Pic of the back: https://i.imgur.com/HgNoTYK.jpg
>
> C
>

From tony.aiuto at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 20:35:55 2020
From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 21:35:55 -0400
Subject: Unusual Punched Cards (Peter Van Peborgh)
In-Reply-To: <20200418192430.A3C9D4E77C@mx2.ezwind.net>
References: <CAH1BU=_fqrF=soWns=iP7ZH_Myf3KBLQXv64pCahd2Xp-BjwYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200418192430.A3C9D4E77C@mx2.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <CAKGyVsXT2BBo4N2w3Np5rRx-Rj2RJ_uC8TwkYLbkhK_Ke-wbig@mail.gmail.com>

Can you give us a clue as to the locale of those renaissance festivals.
That might prompt me to go.

On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 7:40 PM brianb1224 via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> There is a lady who collects them also plus the wooden blooms usually at
> the renaissance festivals. Sorry I forgot her name.Sent from my Verizon,
> Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> -------- Original message --------From: Michael Thompson via cctech <
> cctech at classiccmp.org> Date: 4/18/20  2:14 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: cctech <
> cctech at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Unusual Punched Cards (Peter Van
> Peborgh) >> Guys,>> I have been collecting all types of computer punched
> cards for a few years> now. In the distant past I actually used them!>> I
> am desperately looking for two types I do not have been able to find a>
> sample of:> *       Jacquard fabric/carpet loom cards. OK, not computer but
> the> ancestor, for completeness of the history. There may be several
> formats of> these.>>Something like this?
> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/interesting_computer_items/jacquard-loom-cards--
> Michael Thompson

From couryhouse at aol.com  Sun Apr 19 03:47:17 2020
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:47:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: OK Looking to purchase "Sensicall" and the   ATT Code-Com" bell
 system attachment that woukd allow deaf  to  tap morse over phone lines
In-Reply-To: <764628153.1725125.1587187920400@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <764628153.1725125.1587187920400.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <764628153.1725125.1587187920400@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1434209521.1970096.1587286037395@mail.yahoo.com>



OK Looking to purchase "Sensicall" and the ATT Code-Com" bell system attachment that woukd allow deaf to tap morse over phone lines? thanks? Ed? at? SMECC

From couryhouse at aol.com  Sun Apr 19 03:51:53 2020
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:51:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?correction_OK_Looking_to_purchase_"Sensic?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?all"_and_the_ATT_Code-Com"_bell_system_at?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?tachment_that_woukd_allow_deaf_to_tap_mor?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?se_over_phone_lines=C2=A0_thanks=C2=A0_Ed=C2=A0_at=C2=A0_SMECC?=
References: <1312658628.1967632.1587286313293.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1312658628.1967632.1587286313293@mail.yahoo.com>


OK Looking to purchase "Sensicall" and the ATT Code-Com" bell system attachment that woukd allow deaf to tap morse over phone lines? thanks? Ed? at? SMECC 

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun Apr 19 10:22:31 2020
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 10:22:31 -0500
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>

After looking at the video, and Mattis' description of the 
sweep method, I'm guessing a counter
in the chain has gone bad.  Assuming this uses a 5 x 7 
character matrix, then there would be probably
a divide by 6 for the scan across each character plus space 
between, then a counter for the number
of characters per line, a counter for the 8 or 9 raster scan 
lines for each row, and then a counter
for the number of rows.  At least one of those counters 
might be counting too fast.  Does the vertical just give one 
reset pulse, or does it give a pulse to bump the trace down 
the screen one scan line at a
time?  Also, a cap in the vertical sweep circuit may have 
gone bad, causing the vertical to move too
fast, as evidenced by sloping lines on the screen.

Just guessing from a distance.

Jon

From abs at absd.org  Sun Apr 19 11:55:46 2020
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:55:46 +0100
Subject: HP 41-CX
Message-ID: <CAGN_6paOSps=xVpaJ4tpAYtJN9bo70J1Qg8fnCNUHOsi9x6nXg@mail.gmail.com>

I've come into possession of an HP 41-CX calculator - unfortunately it
appears to have had batteries left in it which have left corrosion on
the internal contacts.

(some pics: https://photos.app.goo.gl/48bE7WJZP8R4PF9a9 )

My classic hardware tendencies tend to run more towards the "can run
*nix" end, and while I could just clean it up and throw it on eBay I
wondered if anyone here has a 41C shaped soft spot and would be
interested? (happy to trade/part trade for something they already have
for which they are less fond if that works :)

David

From mattislind at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 13:58:04 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 20:58:04 +0200
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>

Den s?n 19 apr. 2020 kl 17:22 skrev Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com>:

> After looking at the video, and Mattis' description of the
> sweep method, I'm guessing a counter
> in the chain has gone bad.  Assuming this uses a 5 x 7
> character matrix, then there would be probably
> a divide by 6 for the scan across each character plus space
> between, then a counter for the number
> of characters per line, a counter for the 8 or 9 raster scan
> lines for each row, and then a counter
> for the number of rows.  At least one of those counters
> might be counting too fast.  Does the vertical just give one
> reset pulse, or does it give a pulse to bump the trace down
> the screen one scan line at a
> time?  Also, a cap in the vertical sweep circuit may have
> gone bad, causing the vertical to move too
> fast, as evidenced by sloping lines on the screen.
>

As I wrote earlier in the thread I think it is a good idea to check the V
sync and H sync signals to check that they are right in pulse length and
shape.

There are indeed electrolytic capacitors in the vertical deflection circuit
but I am not sure if that would make the beam move much faster since for a
faster move of the beam also requires a higher voltage over the deflection
coil to create a faster ramp up of the current trough it. But it is
definitely worth checking. Especially since the scan lines are sloping a
bit and not straight as one would expect.

The interesting thing is that the counter chain that develops the V and H
sync signals are different from the on the ones that generate addresses to
the picture memory. There are separate X and Y counters that addresses the
memory and then for each scan line the lower bits of the accumulator are
used for addressing the char ROM together with the information from screen
memory.

The VT52 is a quite complex juggle where counters interact with the program
which runs in sync with all operations.

So,  yes,  a counter might have gone bad. Myself I have never seen a
counter that has counted too fast unless the input was too fast. But I
probably still have peculiarities to experience.



>
> Just guessing from a distance.
>

So do I. And now we need Chris to do some measurements on it to get further.

/Mattis


>
> Jon
>

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sun Apr 19 14:29:44 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:29:44 -0400
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
Message-ID: <3efa4105-3d3d-bb98-0358-8c46fca0fdcf@alembic.crystel.com>

So I picked up an 11/84 CPU, 3mb of memory, and a 11/84 Unibus card on 
Ebay. Goal is to speed up my fastest 11 here

For boot time, the diagnostics run in 13 seconds (from when it starts to 
prompt) on the 11/73 board I have and 13 seconds on the 11/84 board. 
This is with a camintonn 2mb half height memory board.

Put in the first PMI module above the 11/84 CPU and tried it out. This 
is a CA rev board which apparently only works in a Unibus pdp11 and not 
a Q-bus one. Apparently it does work.

So what exactly was the bug with the older PMI memory? Block mode DMA, 
I'm using an MTI ESDI controller which can do 16 word block DMA on Q 
Bus. Something else?

Here's the output from RT11.

.show all

RT-11FB (S) V05.05
Booted from DU6:RT11FB

USR     is set SWAP
EXIT    is set SWAP
KMON    is set NOIND
TT      is set NOQUIET
ERROR   is set ERROR
SL      is set OFF
EDIT    is set KED
FORTRAN is set FORTRA
KMON nesting depth is 3
Global .SCCA flag is disabled

PDP 11/83 Processor
2048KB of memory
Floating Point Accelerator Unit
Extended Instruction Set (EIS)
Memory Management Unit
ECC Memory
Cache Memory
PMI Memory
60 Cycle System Clock

Device I/O time-out support
Error logging support
Memory parity support
System job support
Global .SCCA support
FPU support
Extended unit support

Device    Status                   CSR     Vector(s)
------    ------                   ---     ---------
   EL      Not installed           000000   000
   LD      Installed               000000   000
   BA      Installed               000000   000
   DY      Not installed           177170   264
   VM      Installed               177572   250
   SP      Installed               000000   110
   XL      Not installed           176500   300 304
   DL      Installed               174400   160
   MS      Not installed           172522   224
   DU      Resident                172150   154
   LS      Not installed           176510   310 314
   NL      Installed               000000   000

TT  (Resident)
DU  (Resident)
     DU6 = DK , SY
MQ  (Resident)
LD
DL
VM
SP
BA
NL
9 free slots

Job  Name  Console Level State    Low    High  Impure
---  ----  ------- ----- -----    ---    ----  ------
  0   RESORC   0      0   Run     000000 103232 105046

No multi-terminal support

Address   Module    Words
-------   ------    -----
160000    IOPAGE     4096.
132174    DU         5570.
103274    RMON       5856.
001000    ..BG..    16990.

LD0 is  DU6:RTTST.DSK[6000.]



From cctalk at emailtoilet.com  Sun Apr 19 14:23:53 2020
From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com (cctalk at emailtoilet.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 12:23:53 -0700
Subject: Unusual Punched Cards
Message-ID: <005701d61680$109714d0$31c53e70$@emailtoilet.com>

This card is shorter than 40 columns but I can't tell if it has been cut off
or not. I only have 1 so I can't let it go.

 

http://www.ibmjunkman.com/cards/?Holder=2551
<http://www.ibmjunkman.com/cards/?Holder=2551&Img=0> &Img=0

 

You can search on Style and select different ones.


From jsw at ieee.org  Sun Apr 19 16:20:27 2020
From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 16:20:27 -0500
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
In-Reply-To: <3efa4105-3d3d-bb98-0358-8c46fca0fdcf@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <3efa4105-3d3d-bb98-0358-8c46fca0fdcf@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <4f6d772a-d662-ed46-83e0-17a6b37fcd4a@ieee.org>

On 4/19/20 2:29 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> So I picked up an 11/84 CPU, 3mb of memory, and a 11/84 Unibus card on 
> Ebay. Goal is to speed up my fastest 11 here
>
> For boot time, the diagnostics run in 13 seconds (from when it starts 
> to prompt) on the 11/73 board I have and 13 seconds on the 11/84 
> board. This is with a camintonn 2mb half height memory board.
>
> Put in the first PMI module above the 11/84 CPU and tried it out. This 
> is a CA rev board which apparently only works in a Unibus pdp11 and 
> not a Q-bus one. Apparently it does work.
>
> So what exactly was the bug with the older PMI memory? Block mode DMA, 
> I'm using an MTI ESDI controller which can do 16 word block DMA on Q 
> Bus. Something else
> ....
EK-MSV1J-UG 001 documents the the versions that don't do Q-Bus Cycles.? 
uNOTE # 028 indicates that MSV-11 JB/JC (M8637-B/C) doesn't do block 
mode. I suspect the MTI card? falls back to single cycle DMA. Also RT11 
simply may not challenge the configuration sufficiently to demonstrate 
the limitations of the -CA memory variant.


I have not seen any document that describes this as a "bug", so it must 
be a "feature"? /s



 ? Jerry




From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sun Apr 19 17:09:38 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:09:38 -0400
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>

> As I wrote earlier in the thread I think it is a good idea to check the V
> sync and H sync signals to check that they are right in pulse length and
> shape.

Good starting point. From the schematics would that be scope probe to J1 
pin 5 for horizontal and j1 pin 9 for vertical? Also which is J1, and 
how are they numbered :-) Also is there a good ground reference point?

Also is there a document that links the part numbers on the boards with 
what's on the schematics?

> There are indeed electrolytic capacitors in the vertical deflection circuit
> but I am not sure if that would make the beam move much faster since for a
> faster move of the beam also requires a higher voltage over the deflection
> coil to create a faster ramp up of the current trough it. But it is
> definitely worth checking. Especially since the scan lines are sloping a
> bit and not straight as one would expect.

I would believe a capacitor failure due to heat, any ones in particular 
I should check?

> So do I. And now we need Chris to do some measurements on it to get further.

More than happy, just haven't worked on TV sets before and would rather 
not blow off my hand. I'm guessing the really dangerous voltage is the 
one on the bottom left that comes off the step up transformer over to 
the odd plug going into the VT52 rear bulkhead (HV to display)

C

From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Sun Apr 19 18:27:54 2020
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 16:27:54 -0700
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca>


On 2020-Apr-19, at 3:09 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

>> As I wrote earlier in the thread I think it is a good idea to check the V
>> sync and H sync signals to check that they are right in pulse length and
>> shape.
> 
> Good starting point. From the schematics would that be scope probe to J1 pin 5 for horizontal and j1 pin 9 for vertical? Also which is J1, and how are they numbered :-) Also is there a good ground reference point?
> 
> Also is there a document that links the part numbers on the boards with what's on the schematics?
> 
>> There are indeed electrolytic capacitors in the vertical deflection circuit
>> but I am not sure if that would make the beam move much faster since for a
>> faster move of the beam also requires a higher voltage over the deflection
>> coil to create a faster ramp up of the current trough it. But it is
>> definitely worth checking. Especially since the scan lines are sloping a
>> bit and not straight as one would expect.
> 
> I would believe a capacitor failure due to heat, any ones in particular I should check?
> 
>> So do I. And now we need Chris to do some measurements on it to get further.
> 
> More than happy, just haven't worked on TV sets before and would rather not blow off my hand. I'm guessing the really dangerous voltage is the one on the bottom left that comes off the step up transformer over to the odd plug going into the VT52 rear bulkhead (HV to display)


Using the schematic and maintenance manual from bitsavers:
	http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt52/MP00035_VT52schem.pdf
	http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt52/EK-VT52-MM-002_maint_Jul78.pdf

Monitor schematic: MP00035_VT52schem pdf-page 10
Monitor board component layout: MP00035_VT52schem pdf-page 8

There are *two* horizontal signals from the logic to the monitor (plus the vertical & video).

There are some waveform diagrams for what to expect around the monitor board presented in the maint manual: 
	EK-VT52-MM-002_maint_Jul78 pdf-page 92

Something else that might help with diagnosis is taking pictures of the screen with known, simple elements on the screen.
e.g.:
	- clear the screen
	- take pic if it doesn't clear
	- type a simple character like a "-"or "1"
	- pic
	- type a half line or full line of characters
	- pic
	- type different characters on two different lines
	- pic
	
The idea being to find out, from simple known patterns, where the pixels end up being displayed,
so it may be possible to figure out what's happening with the scan, whether it's getting stretched, folding over, etc.

Yes, you want to watch out for HV around the flyback transformer.
The very HV is reasonably insulated, but there's also a few-hundred volts around the open componentry around the focus and intensity controls, the stuff feeding the neck end of the CRT.



From mattislind at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 23:22:28 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 06:22:28 +0200
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82SKTbU2US8PdTG=y_zerhQf_O29quULWNdzXZ4CZkQXC-Q@mail.gmail.com>

m?ndag 20 april 2020 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>:

> As I wrote earlier in the thread I think it is a good idea to check the V
>> sync and H sync signals to check that they are right in pulse length and
>> shape.
>>
>
> Good starting point. From the schematics would that be scope probe to J1
> pin 5 for horizontal and j1 pin 9 for vertical? Also which is J1, and how
> are they numbered :-) Also is there a good ground reference point?


I have a picture of the connector on my page. Have a look there. The
connector have the standard color codes to map to numbers. Black for zero,
Brown for one. Etc.


>
> Also is there a document that links the part numbers on the boards with
> what's on the schematics?


No DEC document. When I did my repair I mapped all ICs to the board but not
the connectors, sorry. You can find all here. Including links to schematis
and maintenance manual: http://www.datormuseum.se/home/dec-vt5x


> There are indeed electrolytic capacitors in the vertical deflection circuit
>> but I am not sure if that would make the beam move much faster since for a
>> faster move of the beam also requires a higher voltage over the deflection
>> coil to create a faster ramp up of the current trough it. But it is
>> definitely worth checking. Especially since the scan lines are sloping a
>> bit and not straight as one would expect.
>>
>
> I would believe a capacitor failure due to heat, any ones in particular I
> should check?


C45 and C42 could be useful to check.


>
> So do I. And now we need Chris to do some measurements on it to get
>> further.
>>
>
> More than happy, just haven't worked on TV sets before and would rather
> not blow off my hand. I'm guessing the really dangerous voltage is the one
> on the bottom left that comes off the step up transformer over to the odd
> plug going into the VT52 rear bulkhead (HV to display)


What you could do is what I did. To remove all control board on the bottom
and lay it out flat on the table. Make a small circuit that create a
composite video signal and feed it into a standard composite video monitor
or TV set. If you remove a jumper to th CRT logic there will be no HV at
all generated.

/Mattis


>
> C
>

From mattislind at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 01:40:33 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:40:33 +0200
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <CABr82S+DMoB+W6EvXp8BE+7AERXie5HO=5yZH4yEqb2RYyNvEw@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> Something else that might help with diagnosis is taking pictures of the
> screen with known, simple elements on the screen.
> e.g.:
>         - clear the screen
>         - take pic if it doesn't clear
>         - type a simple character like a "-"or "1"
>         - pic
>         - type a half line or full line of characters
>         - pic
>         - type different characters on two different lines
>         - pic
>
> The idea being to find out, from simple known patterns, where the pixels
> end up being displayed,
> so it may be possible to figure out what's happening with the scan,
> whether it's getting stretched, folding over, etc.
>
>
>
That is a good idea. Loop the terminal and create a bunch of "known
references".

Might add that it would be interesting to see one single character on a
lets say 4 different positions. Column 0, Column 20, Column 40 and end of
line. Approximately since it is hard to be exact.

/Mattis

From bbortnick at 2bcool.ca  Mon Apr 20 11:49:15 2020
From: bbortnick at 2bcool.ca (barry bortnick)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:49:15 -0600
Subject: Old IBM magnetic media
Message-ID: <4d7b50000126fd9a0a519bac052fc580@mail.gmail.com>

 Old IBM magnetic media

Yes, two cartridges have a total capacity of 100mb, the same as the staging
disks, IBM 3330-1.

However, the entire cartridge contents are not staged, only the cylinders
that have the requested data.

Not sure why your cartridges were empty.

Here?s a link to my ?working ? 3850 mass storage robotic arm for your
viewing pleasure!

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8ifNxDgxuY&pbjreload=10*
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8ifNxDgxuY&pbjreload=10>

?\_(?)_/?

From mattislind at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 12:40:31 2020
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:40:31 +0200
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <CABr82S+DMoB+W6EvXp8BE+7AERXie5HO=5yZH4yEqb2RYyNvEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca>
 <CABr82S+DMoB+W6EvXp8BE+7AERXie5HO=5yZH4yEqb2RYyNvEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82SKM1mUQbmfjie6GthtG9UeyhyAmT+kTp3u-SnMExUAhvQ@mail.gmail.com>

I looked at the video once more and paused around 0:21. It appears to be
some text there on the uppermost row.

Maybe the vertical sweep is highly non-linear. Check all capacitors in the
vertical stage. C43, C41,C40, C42, C35 and C45. Would probably be good to
measure the voltage over the current sensing resistor R73 and see if it is
a proper ramp as it should.

What about the R92 linearity potentiometer. Is it ok? Diode D31? Actually
check all semiconductors.

/Mattis

m?ndag 20 april 2020 skrev Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com>:

>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Something else that might help with diagnosis is taking pictures of the
>> screen with known, simple elements on the screen.
>> e.g.:
>>         - clear the screen
>>         - take pic if it doesn't clear
>>         - type a simple character like a "-"or "1"
>>         - pic
>>         - type a half line or full line of characters
>>         - pic
>>         - type different characters on two different lines
>>         - pic
>>
>> The idea being to find out, from simple known patterns, where the pixels
>> end up being displayed,
>> so it may be possible to figure out what's happening with the scan,
>> whether it's getting stretched, folding over, etc.
>>
>>
>>
> That is a good idea. Loop the terminal and create a bunch of "known
> references".
>
> Might add that it would be interesting to see one single character on a
> lets say 4 different positions. Column 0, Column 20, Column 40 and end of
> line. Approximately since it is hard to be exact.
>
> /Mattis
>

From bbortnick at 2bcool.ca  Mon Apr 20 13:12:05 2020
From: bbortnick at 2bcool.ca (barry bortnick)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:12:05 -0600
Subject: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100
Message-ID: <b41b1282d736c58e0db537c481789ad9@mail.gmail.com>

Old IBM magnetic media

I am hoping someone can help me with a project. I?m volunteer at our local
music museum (National Music Centre/Studio Bell.) They are restoring a
vintage Synclavier, an early digital audio workstation, which happens to
have an embedded DEC PDP 11/23. Part of the museums purpose is to restore,
maintain and make available these instruments for musicians to use in
addition to static displays.

The Synclavier should have a matching VT100, but that is the only component
the museum does not currently have for this functioning device. Yes, the
VT100 can be easily emulated, but as a museum, historical accuracy is also
vital.

I was wondering if anybody had any leads on a VT100 that might be donated?

Thanks for any help!

From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 13:15:37 2020
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 14:15:37 -0400
Subject: Kennedy 9800 - Power-up tips?
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAguHGE+nVK0+jGCXQL5cT5yUEofZCnBOnCY8LJCsACwHA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi friends,

Now that I have enough hobby time having quit my job two weeks before the
apocalypse, I'm interested in poking at my Kennedy 9800 tape controller
project.

I bought the tape unit in Q3 2017 and the seller said they had powered it
up and nothing seemed awry. I have not powered it up and reading about old
electrolytic cap issues I'm curious if I should do anything beyond replace
any obviously leaking/ruptured capacitors.

IIRC people have used a variac to gradually bring the power supply up to
operating voltage and somewhat refresh the capacitors - is this a thing? Is
this advisable?

Any help is appreciated!
--
Anders Nelson

www.erogear.com

From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Mon Apr 20 13:18:56 2020
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 14:18:56 -0400
Subject: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100
In-Reply-To: <b41b1282d736c58e0db537c481789ad9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b41b1282d736c58e0db537c481789ad9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3bf914e5-a934-2085-e2ee-dfda06a153bd@ieee.org>

Where is this to be displayed?? I can't help you with the VT100 but I 
was very involved in the PDP11/40 machine that David McLey built his 
software on!

In fact, I worked until 1 in the morning the night before he had a 
meeting with the financiers from New York to finance project, when it 
failed the day before and DEC could not get somebody out to help!

cheers,

NIgel Johnson



On 20/04/2020 14:12, barry bortnick via cctalk wrote:
> Old IBM magnetic media
>
> I am hoping someone can help me with a project. I?m volunteer at our local
> music museum (National Music Centre/Studio Bell.) They are restoring a
> vintage Synclavier, an early digital audio workstation, which happens to
> have an embedded DEC PDP 11/23. Part of the museums purpose is to restore,
> maintain and make available these instruments for musicians to use in
> addition to static displays.
>
> The Synclavier should have a matching VT100, but that is the only component
> the museum does not currently have for this functioning device. Yes, the
> VT100 can be easily emulated, but as a museum, historical accuracy is also
> vital.
>
> I was wondering if anybody had any leads on a VT100 that might be donated?
>
> Thanks for any help!

  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE, MCSE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From bbortnick at 2bcool.ca  Mon Apr 20 14:02:43 2020
From: bbortnick at 2bcool.ca (barry bortnick)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:02:43 -0600
Subject: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100
In-Reply-To: <3bf914e5-a934-2085-e2ee-dfda06a153bd@ieee.org>
References: <b41b1282d736c58e0db537c481789ad9@mail.gmail.com>
 <3bf914e5-a934-2085-e2ee-dfda06a153bd@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <f2bf8853cda3cba224b9f88079f8b536@mail.gmail.com>

It's located at the Calgary based National Music Centre/Studio Bell in
Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
I have to correct the original posting, it's a McLeyvier, not a Synclavier.

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Nigel Johnson via
cctalk
Sent: April 20, 2020 12:19 PM
To: barry bortnick via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100

Where is this to be displayed?  I can't help you with the VT100 but I was
very involved in the PDP11/40 machine that David McLey built his software
on!

In fact, I worked until 1 in the morning the night before he had a meeting
with the financiers from New York to finance project, when it failed the day
before and DEC could not get somebody out to help!

cheers,

NIgel Johnson



On 20/04/2020 14:12, barry bortnick via cctalk wrote:
> Old IBM magnetic media
>
> I am hoping someone can help me with a project. I?m volunteer at our
> local music museum (National Music Centre/Studio Bell.) They are
> restoring a vintage Synclavier, an early digital audio workstation,
> which happens to have an embedded DEC PDP 11/23. Part of the museums
> purpose is to restore, maintain and make available these instruments
> for musicians to use in addition to static displays.
>
> The Synclavier should have a matching VT100, but that is the only
> component the museum does not currently have for this functioning
> device. Yes, the
> VT100 can be easily emulated, but as a museum, historical accuracy is
> also vital.
>
> I was wondering if anybody had any leads on a VT100 that might be donated?
>
> Thanks for any help!



--
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE, MCSE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from
me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any
number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>


Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print
this message

From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Mon Apr 20 14:07:45 2020
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:07:45 -0400
Subject: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100
In-Reply-To: <f2bf8853cda3cba224b9f88079f8b536@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b41b1282d736c58e0db537c481789ad9@mail.gmail.com>
 <3bf914e5-a934-2085-e2ee-dfda06a153bd@ieee.org>
 <f2bf8853cda3cba224b9f88079f8b536@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b7cf0fa0-47a0-f67b-2e78-234fe76793d1@ieee.org>

I thought they were the same!? Maybe the name was changed when he 
founded Syntronics with his partners form NYC!

A bit too far for my wanderings! The last time I was in Calgary I picked 
up a horrible disease while on a five-hour layover at the airport!

cheers,

Nigel


On 20/04/2020 15:02, barry bortnick via cctalk wrote:
> It's located at the Calgary based National Music Centre/Studio Bell in
> Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
> I have to correct the original posting, it's a McLeyvier, not a Synclavier.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Nigel Johnson via
> cctalk
> Sent: April 20, 2020 12:19 PM
> To: barry bortnick via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100
>
> Where is this to be displayed?  I can't help you with the VT100 but I was
> very involved in the PDP11/40 machine that David McLey built his software
> on!
>
> In fact, I worked until 1 in the morning the night before he had a meeting
> with the financiers from New York to finance project, when it failed the day
> before and DEC could not get somebody out to help!
>
> cheers,
>
> NIgel Johnson
>
>
>
> On 20/04/2020 14:12, barry bortnick via cctalk wrote:
>> Old IBM magnetic media
>>
>> I am hoping someone can help me with a project. I?m volunteer at our
>> local music museum (National Music Centre/Studio Bell.) They are
>> restoring a vintage Synclavier, an early digital audio workstation,
>> which happens to have an embedded DEC PDP 11/23. Part of the museums
>> purpose is to restore, maintain and make available these instruments
>> for musicians to use in addition to static displays.
>>
>> The Synclavier should have a matching VT100, but that is the only
>> component the museum does not currently have for this functioning
>> device. Yes, the
>> VT100 can be easily emulated, but as a museum, historical accuracy is
>> also vital.
>>
>> I was wondering if anybody had any leads on a VT100 that might be donated?
>>
>> Thanks for any help!
>
>
> --
> Nigel Johnson
> MSc., MIEEE, MCSE
> VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
>
> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
>
>
> You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591
>
> If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday
>
> This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from
> me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any
> number of system administrators along the way.
>      Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>
>
>
> Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print
> this message

  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE, MCSE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 14:08:05 2020
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 14:08:05 -0500
Subject: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100
In-Reply-To: <f2bf8853cda3cba224b9f88079f8b536@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b41b1282d736c58e0db537c481789ad9@mail.gmail.com>
 <3bf914e5-a934-2085-e2ee-dfda06a153bd@ieee.org>
 <f2bf8853cda3cba224b9f88079f8b536@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23O2XY3mEOjo6W4=ZWpM9RYFj3-pO6A3b61CeFJDTwcYw@mail.gmail.com>

have you reach out to any of the local IT guys in town that do smal work
they may know of one sitting in some forgooten closet
have u tried sait? u of c?

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Apr 20 14:10:53 2020
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 14:10:53 -0500
Subject: paging rik bos
Message-ID: <000b01d61747$69f99710$3decc530$@classiccmp.org>

Anyone seen Rik Bos around? I sent him some 12920/21 mux boards to repair, and he got to keep some but haven?t heard anything in a long time?. I may start playing with the HP2000 again soon ?


From bbortnick at 2bcool.ca  Mon Apr 20 14:19:44 2020
From: bbortnick at 2bcool.ca (barry bortnick)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:19:44 -0600
Subject: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23O2XY3mEOjo6W4=ZWpM9RYFj3-pO6A3b61CeFJDTwcYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b41b1282d736c58e0db537c481789ad9@mail.gmail.com>
 <3bf914e5-a934-2085-e2ee-dfda06a153bd@ieee.org>
 <f2bf8853cda3cba224b9f88079f8b536@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23O2XY3mEOjo6W4=ZWpM9RYFj3-pO6A3b61CeFJDTwcYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb07f0d8c7b7f13a988e09e671ad9a95@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I have reached out to my contacts across Canada including old support
techs, and the UofC.



*From:* Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
*Sent:* April 20, 2020 1:08 PM
*To:* barry bortnick <bbortnick at 2bcool.ca>; General Discussion: On-Topic
and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
*Subject:* Re: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100



have you reach out to any of the local IT guys in town that do smal work
they may know of one sitting in some forgooten closet
have u tried sait? u of c?

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 14:24:12 2020
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 14:24:12 -0500
Subject: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100
In-Reply-To: <cb07f0d8c7b7f13a988e09e671ad9a95@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b41b1282d736c58e0db537c481789ad9@mail.gmail.com>
 <3bf914e5-a934-2085-e2ee-dfda06a153bd@ieee.org>
 <f2bf8853cda3cba224b9f88079f8b536@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23O2XY3mEOjo6W4=ZWpM9RYFj3-pO6A3b61CeFJDTwcYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <cb07f0d8c7b7f13a988e09e671ad9a95@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs22GSoEe0oDarwj7F2URgb-pvQ-JbUA29RuS+TZobYZb6Q@mail.gmail.com>

did u reaach out to recyclers?
such these guys in wpg
https://www.motherearthrecycling.ca/

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:19 PM barry bortnick via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Yes, I have reached out to my contacts across Canada including old support
> techs, and the UofC.
>
>
>
> *From:* Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* April 20, 2020 1:08 PM
> *To:* barry bortnick <bbortnick at 2bcool.ca>; General Discussion: On-Topic
> and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100
>
>
>
> have you reach out to any of the local IT guys in town that do smal work
> they may know of one sitting in some forgooten closet
> have u tried sait? u of c?
>

From bbortnick at 2bcool.ca  Mon Apr 20 14:40:36 2020
From: bbortnick at 2bcool.ca (barry bortnick)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:40:36 -0600
Subject: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs22GSoEe0oDarwj7F2URgb-pvQ-JbUA29RuS+TZobYZb6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b41b1282d736c58e0db537c481789ad9@mail.gmail.com>
 <3bf914e5-a934-2085-e2ee-dfda06a153bd@ieee.org>
 <f2bf8853cda3cba224b9f88079f8b536@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23O2XY3mEOjo6W4=ZWpM9RYFj3-pO6A3b61CeFJDTwcYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <cb07f0d8c7b7f13a988e09e671ad9a95@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22GSoEe0oDarwj7F2URgb-pvQ-JbUA29RuS+TZobYZb6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c7207f38fb867fe2359d34a7447c0a4c@mail.gmail.com>

It?s difficult to reach out to too many 3rd parties; that why I am hoping
this route, which has many eyes, will lead to first person find. Thanks for
the help!



*From:* Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
*Sent:* April 20, 2020 1:24 PM
*To:* barry bortnick <bbortnick at 2bcool.ca>; General Discussion: On-Topic
and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
*Subject:* Re: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100



did u reaach out to recyclers?

such these guys in wpg
https://www.motherearthrecycling.ca/



On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:19 PM barry bortnick via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

Yes, I have reached out to my contacts across Canada including old support
techs, and the UofC.



*From:* Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
*Sent:* April 20, 2020 1:08 PM
*To:* barry bortnick <bbortnick at 2bcool.ca>; General Discussion: On-Topic
and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
*Subject:* Re: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100



have you reach out to any of the local IT guys in town that do smal work
they may know of one sitting in some forgooten closet
have u tried sait? u of c?

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Apr 20 15:03:14 2020
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:03:14 -0700
Subject: paging rik bos
In-Reply-To: <000b01d61747$69f99710$3decc530$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000b01d61747$69f99710$3decc530$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <a7819c29-c471-39f6-cf20-5b52375efc00@bitsavers.org>

On 4/20/20 12:10 PM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote:
> Anyone seen Rik Bos around? I sent him some 12920/21 mux boards to repair, and he got to keep some but haven?t heard anything in a long time?. I may start playing with the HP2000 again soon ?
> 
he is on the vintHP list



From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 15:13:52 2020
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:13:52 -0500
Subject: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100
In-Reply-To: <c7207f38fb867fe2359d34a7447c0a4c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b41b1282d736c58e0db537c481789ad9@mail.gmail.com>
 <3bf914e5-a934-2085-e2ee-dfda06a153bd@ieee.org>
 <f2bf8853cda3cba224b9f88079f8b536@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23O2XY3mEOjo6W4=ZWpM9RYFj3-pO6A3b61CeFJDTwcYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <cb07f0d8c7b7f13a988e09e671ad9a95@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22GSoEe0oDarwj7F2URgb-pvQ-JbUA29RuS+TZobYZb6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <c7207f38fb867fe2359d34a7447c0a4c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs225X8zb9y=Fz19WBz8xu2z3oF3ouApOcBjE2Bjf=Hqqjw@mail.gmail.com>

no problem though never ment to be annoying if i was in anyway the
suggestion i gave for the recycler does from time to time have these
terminals for sale.
ive always wanted to check out studio bell such a treasure but always been
closed when been in town, and then theres aecon witch with work never have
time at that time of yr to make the 20hr drive from northern mb to check
out.

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:40 PM barry bortnick via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> It?s difficult to reach out to too many 3rd parties; that why I am hoping
> this route, which has many eyes, will lead to first person find. Thanks for
> the help!
>
>
>
> *From:* Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* April 20, 2020 1:24 PM
> *To:* barry bortnick <bbortnick at 2bcool.ca>; General Discussion: On-Topic
> and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100
>
>
>
> did u reaach out to recyclers?
>
> such these guys in wpg
> https://www.motherearthrecycling.ca/
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:19 PM barry bortnick via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Yes, I have reached out to my contacts across Canada including old support
> techs, and the UofC.
>
>
>
> *From:* Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* April 20, 2020 1:08 PM
> *To:* barry bortnick <bbortnick at 2bcool.ca>; General Discussion: On-Topic
> and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100
>
>
>
> have you reach out to any of the local IT guys in town that do smal work
> they may know of one sitting in some forgooten closet
> have u tried sait? u of c?
>

From bbortnick at 2bcool.ca  Mon Apr 20 16:35:41 2020
From: bbortnick at 2bcool.ca (barry bortnick)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:35:41 -0600
Subject: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs225X8zb9y=Fz19WBz8xu2z3oF3ouApOcBjE2Bjf=Hqqjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b41b1282d736c58e0db537c481789ad9@mail.gmail.com>
 <3bf914e5-a934-2085-e2ee-dfda06a153bd@ieee.org>
 <f2bf8853cda3cba224b9f88079f8b536@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23O2XY3mEOjo6W4=ZWpM9RYFj3-pO6A3b61CeFJDTwcYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <cb07f0d8c7b7f13a988e09e671ad9a95@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22GSoEe0oDarwj7F2URgb-pvQ-JbUA29RuS+TZobYZb6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <c7207f38fb867fe2359d34a7447c0a4c@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs225X8zb9y=Fz19WBz8xu2z3oF3ouApOcBjE2Bjf=Hqqjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <391372f1dc725ca94abb10d41b263926@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Adrian,

Upon re-reading my response, I see there might be some unintended sarcasm
at the end of my response.

Please understand none was meant.

Cheers,

Barry



*From:* Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
*Sent:* April 20, 2020 2:14 PM
*To:* barry bortnick <bbortnick at 2bcool.ca>; General Discussion: On-Topic
and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
*Subject:* Re: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100



no problem though never ment to be annoying if i was in anyway the
suggestion i gave for the recycler does from time to time have these
terminals for sale.
ive always wanted to check out studio bell such a treasure but always been
closed when been in town, and then theres aecon witch with work never have
time at that time of yr to make the 20hr drive from northern mb to check
out.



On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:40 PM barry bortnick via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

It?s difficult to reach out to too many 3rd parties; that why I am hoping
this route, which has many eyes, will lead to first person find. Thanks for
the help!



*From:* Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
*Sent:* April 20, 2020 1:24 PM
*To:* barry bortnick <bbortnick at 2bcool.ca>; General Discussion: On-Topic
and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
*Subject:* Re: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100



did u reaach out to recyclers?

such these guys in wpg
https://www.motherearthrecycling.ca/



On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:19 PM barry bortnick via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

Yes, I have reached out to my contacts across Canada including old support
techs, and the UofC.



*From:* Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
*Sent:* April 20, 2020 1:08 PM
*To:* barry bortnick <bbortnick at 2bcool.ca>; General Discussion: On-Topic
and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
*Subject:* Re: Wanted for non-profit public museum: DEC VT100



have you reach out to any of the local IT guys in town that do smal work
they may know of one sitting in some forgooten closet
have u tried sait? u of c?

From doug at doughq.com  Tue Apr 21 04:09:04 2020
From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:09:04 +1000
Subject: HP 41-CX
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6paOSps=xVpaJ4tpAYtJN9bo70J1Qg8fnCNUHOsi9x6nXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6paOSps=xVpaJ4tpAYtJN9bo70J1Qg8fnCNUHOsi9x6nXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM_9E62VtApoPD5VDotCGtp3MQxkSZ1OZtV5FohASY5r-rF0XA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi David,

That certainly is a shame.  For the gold plated contact to corrode so badly
means large amounts of potential damage to the flexible PCB.

You may be able to repair it using some brass shim - but I cant see how
else to repair it.

The CX was a wonderful machine - and seeing this has reminded me of many a
night at uni.

Kindest regards,

Doug Jackson

em: doug at doughq.com
ph: 0414 986878

Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com
Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net

-----------------------------------------------------------

Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted
with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for
your own use.

Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have
been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard - for this I apologise in
advance - It's ok bec**** we don* nee* accu**** tex* to unde****** actu**
mean***.

Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the
imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or
moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the
result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which
case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal
liability. :-)

Be nice to your parents.

Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, Setup a
radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you
happy.





On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:56 AM David Brownlee via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I've come into possession of an HP 41-CX calculator - unfortunately it
> appears to have had batteries left in it which have left corrosion on
> the internal contacts.
>
> (some pics: https://photos.app.goo.gl/48bE7WJZP8R4PF9a9 )
>
> My classic hardware tendencies tend to run more towards the "can run
> *nix" end, and while I could just clean it up and throw it on eBay I
> wondered if anyone here has a 41C shaped soft spot and would be
> interested? (happy to trade/part trade for something they already have
> for which they are less fond if that works :)
>
> David
>

From doug at doughq.com  Tue Apr 21 04:35:34 2020
From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:35:34 +1000
Subject: Pdp11/05 boot media
Message-ID: <CAM_9E63U0qxDFdUW2Risf9QQX=cjt=9LHokojK309dDFmT-5RQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everybody

I'm the proud owner of a PDP11/05 system with a couple of 8" floppy
drives.  I believe they are likely to be RX01s.

Does anybody on the list have some boot media that they could provide.  I
understand that the controller can't format the disks so I'm in a
frustrating state where I don't know where to start.

Doug Jackson

Canberra  Australia.

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 07:02:59 2020
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:02:59 -0400
Subject: Pdp11/05 boot media
In-Reply-To: <CAM_9E63U0qxDFdUW2Risf9QQX=cjt=9LHokojK309dDFmT-5RQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM_9E63U0qxDFdUW2Risf9QQX=cjt=9LHokojK309dDFmT-5RQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueHivqJFpEnT98iEyNNwPgW291bs=geoAn9rSwqc_t09w@mail.gmail.com>

Using an older version OS and PDPGUI send a tape image into RAM through the
serial port.  Helps if you have a m9312 ROM board.  You can make rx01 disks
using dunfield's disk utility (right?) I believe but I never actually did
this myself.

Bill

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 5:35 AM Doug Jackson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Hi everybody
>
> I'm the proud owner of a PDP11/05 system with a couple of 8" floppy
> drives.  I believe they are likely to be RX01s.
>
> Does anybody on the list have some boot media that they could provide.  I
> understand that the controller can't format the disks so I'm in a
> frustrating state where I don't know where to start.
>
> Doug Jackson
>
> Canberra  Australia.
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Apr 21 09:15:31 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 07:15:31 -0700
Subject: Pdp11/05 boot media
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBueHivqJFpEnT98iEyNNwPgW291bs=geoAn9rSwqc_t09w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM_9E63U0qxDFdUW2Risf9QQX=cjt=9LHokojK309dDFmT-5RQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBueHivqJFpEnT98iEyNNwPgW291bs=geoAn9rSwqc_t09w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0d8c597f-8e33-f7db-3b25-cce07c480c38@sydex.com>

On 4/21/20 5:02 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> Using an older version OS and PDPGUI send a tape image into RAM through the
> serial port.  Helps if you have a m9312 ROM board.  You can make rx01 disks
> using dunfield's disk utility (right?) I believe but I never actually did

Yes, that's assuming you have a PC with an FDC capable of
writing/formatting FM floppies.

--Chuck

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Apr 21 09:34:53 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:34:53 -0400
Subject: Pdp11/05 boot media
In-Reply-To: <0d8c597f-8e33-f7db-3b25-cce07c480c38@sydex.com>
References: <CAM_9E63U0qxDFdUW2Risf9QQX=cjt=9LHokojK309dDFmT-5RQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBueHivqJFpEnT98iEyNNwPgW291bs=geoAn9rSwqc_t09w@mail.gmail.com>
 <0d8c597f-8e33-f7db-3b25-cce07c480c38@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <7ac264fb-8ead-bcab-bf04-14b094575a87@alembic.crystel.com>

Or someone could lend you some floppies. I have an RX02 drive here I am 
putting back together, right now I have it switched to emulate an RX01 
with my RXV11 controller. I'll look through my floppies and see if I 
have some RX01 disks I can load up with RT11.

C

On 4/21/2020 10:15 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/21/20 5:02 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
>> Using an older version OS and PDPGUI send a tape image into RAM through the
>> serial port.  Helps if you have a m9312 ROM board.  You can make rx01 disks
>> using dunfield's disk utility (right?) I believe but I never actually did
> 
> Yes, that's assuming you have a PC with an FDC capable of
> writing/formatting FM floppies.
> 
> --Chuck
> 

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Apr 21 09:57:52 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:57:52 -0400
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SKM1mUQbmfjie6GthtG9UeyhyAmT+kTp3u-SnMExUAhvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca>
 <CABr82S+DMoB+W6EvXp8BE+7AERXie5HO=5yZH4yEqb2RYyNvEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SKM1mUQbmfjie6GthtG9UeyhyAmT+kTp3u-SnMExUAhvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b2ad5a1e-10fe-6201-7c65-411e0846de4e@alembic.crystel.com>

Well I'm starting to walk through this. First I took an IR picture of 
the boards in operation, then started troubleshooting.

First I started checking voltages. J2 is easily accessible so I put a 
ground probe on pin 10, and checked voltages as follows:

J2-3 Should be -5v, reading -3.8v
J2-2 Should be -12v reading -15v
J2-4 Should be 5v, reading 5.04v
J1-10 Should be 15v reading 14.84

Hm. That's odd. Looks like the negative voltages are a bit off.

According to the schematic the key transistor on the 5v rail is Q6, 
which is a 2n3055. The key transistor on +15 is Q10 and that circuit 
looks ok. However whatever is running the -5 and -12 volts is not 
working right.... Looks like Q12 is the key power transistor there with 
E2 serving as the control.

Hm....

C




On 4/20/2020 1:40 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote:
> I looked at the video once more and paused around 0:21. It appears to be
> some text there on the uppermost row.
> 
> Maybe the vertical sweep is highly non-linear. Check all capacitors in the
> vertical stage. C43, C41,C40, C42, C35 and C45. Would probably be good to
> measure the voltage over the current sensing resistor R73 and see if it is
> a proper ramp as it should.
> 
> What about the R92 linearity potentiometer. Is it ok? Diode D31? Actually
> check all semiconductors.
> 
> /Mattis
> 
> m?ndag 20 april 2020 skrev Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com>:
> 
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Something else that might help with diagnosis is taking pictures of the
>>> screen with known, simple elements on the screen.
>>> e.g.:
>>>          - clear the screen
>>>          - take pic if it doesn't clear
>>>          - type a simple character like a "-"or "1"
>>>          - pic
>>>          - type a half line or full line of characters
>>>          - pic
>>>          - type different characters on two different lines
>>>          - pic
>>>
>>> The idea being to find out, from simple known patterns, where the pixels
>>> end up being displayed,
>>> so it may be possible to figure out what's happening with the scan,
>>> whether it's getting stretched, folding over, etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> That is a good idea. Loop the terminal and create a bunch of "known
>> references".
>>
>> Might add that it would be interesting to see one single character on a
>> lets say 4 different positions. Column 0, Column 20, Column 40 and end of
>> line. Approximately since it is hard to be exact.
>>
>> /Mattis
>>

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Apr 21 11:35:26 2020
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 11:35:26 -0500
Subject: HP 41-CX
In-Reply-To: <CAM_9E62VtApoPD5VDotCGtp3MQxkSZ1OZtV5FohASY5r-rF0XA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6paOSps=xVpaJ4tpAYtJN9bo70J1Qg8fnCNUHOsi9x6nXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM_9E62VtApoPD5VDotCGtp3MQxkSZ1OZtV5FohASY5r-rF0XA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002c01d617fa$dcbec140$963c43c0$@classiccmp.org>

I'm very fond of my hp41c and still use it every day. When I had a minor problem with it, I sent it here and they did a fantastic job for what I considered a very reasonable price:

https://vintagecalculatorrepair.com/

If you want to DIY and your issues are solely the battery compartment, see:

https://www.thecalculatorstore.com/Calculator-blog/HP-41C-repair-kit

J



From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Tue Apr 21 12:23:00 2020
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:23:00 -0700
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <b2ad5a1e-10fe-6201-7c65-411e0846de4e@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca>
 <CABr82S+DMoB+W6EvXp8BE+7AERXie5HO=5yZH4yEqb2RYyNvEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SKM1mUQbmfjie6GthtG9UeyhyAmT+kTp3u-SnMExUAhvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2ad5a1e-10fe-6201-7c65-411e0846de4e@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <58A706EF-1884-483B-862E-B3A17FD50258@shaw.ca>

On 2020-Apr-21, at 7:57 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Well I'm starting to walk through this. First I took an IR picture of the boards in operation, then started troubleshooting.
> 
> First I started checking voltages. J2 is easily accessible so I put a ground probe on pin 10, and checked voltages as follows:
> 
> J2-3 Should be -5v, reading -3.8v
> J2-2 Should be -12v reading -15v
> J2-4 Should be 5v, reading 5.04v
> J1-10 Should be 15v reading 14.84
> 
> Hm. That's odd. Looks like the negative voltages are a bit off.
> 
> According to the schematic the key transistor on the 5v rail is Q6, which is a 2n3055. The key transistor on +15 is Q10 and that circuit looks ok. However whatever is running the -5 and -12 volts is not working right.... Looks like Q12 is the key power transistor there with E2 serving as the control.
> 
> Hm....

It's conceivable there was a revision change where the -12V was changed to -15V, but it does seem unlikely.

The -12 is used by the vertical deflection circuit, the CRT filament, (and the RS-232).

I wouldn't immediately anticipate -12 going to -15 alone would produce the upset you're seeing on the screen but there could well be interrelated failures between the vertical deflection and the over-voltage -12, so the excessive -12 should probably be addressed.

In the power supply, you could measure some voltages around the -12 regulator.

E2.2 and E2.3 should be around 0V.
E2.6 I expect would normally be within +/- 2V of GND.
If E2.6 is way-positive (>Q4.E, > ~ +2.6V), then E2 is attempting to throttle down the output but failing due to some failure around Q4/Q12.

Measure the voltages on Q4 and Q12.
They could be leaky or low-gain.
It's conceivable Q12 has a CE short, but I'd expect the input to the reg to be more than -15.

The low -5 is odd, zener D14 looks to be a 5.1V type.
R45 is probably burning up.
I haven't spotted anything in the schematic that actually uses the -5,
it looks to be provided for some alternative character generator (schematic pdf.42),
so that may depend on what character generator chip / daughter board is used in your unit.


From peraza at newsguy.com  Tue Apr 21 12:32:07 2020
From: peraza at newsguy.com (Hector Peraza)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:32:07 +0200
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SKM1mUQbmfjie6GthtG9UeyhyAmT+kTp3u-SnMExUAhvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca>
 <CABr82S+DMoB+W6EvXp8BE+7AERXie5HO=5yZH4yEqb2RYyNvEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SKM1mUQbmfjie6GthtG9UeyhyAmT+kTp3u-SnMExUAhvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aae78b4b-002f-f540-0b81-5262cc72590c@newsguy.com>

The raster seems folded at the left and at the top, which indicates a 
problem with both the vertical and horizontal sweep.

As Mattis Lind already mentioned, the VT52 uses direct drive of the 
vertical and horizontal circuitry (no oscillators to synchronize) yet 
the character rows in the video are running diagonally totally out of 
sync with the sweep, so I'd check the timing generator (pages 4-17 and 
4-18 of the Maintenance Manual, pages 19-21 of the Schematics PDF). But 
that's after checking that the power voltages are solid and ripple-free. 
I'd also check a few components around the horizontal output stage, e.g. 
if capacitor C44 goes bad (page 10) then the pulses from the horizontal 
output will get into other parts of the circuit via the power supply 
lines and/or the driver stages, affecting the logic's work.

A final note: don't keep the terminal running like that for a long time, 
since the horizontal frequency is out of specs the fly-back can get 
damaged (the core can saturate, increasing the current drawn; that may 
also explain the noise you're hearing).

Hector.


On 4/20/2020 7:40 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote:
> I looked at the video once more and paused around 0:21. It appears to be
> some text there on the uppermost row.
>
> Maybe the vertical sweep is highly non-linear. Check all capacitors in the
> vertical stage. C43, C41,C40, C42, C35 and C45. Would probably be good to
> measure the voltage over the current sensing resistor R73 and see if it is
> a proper ramp as it should.
>
> What about the R92 linearity potentiometer. Is it ok? Diode D31? Actually
> check all semiconductors.
>
> /Mattis
>
> m?ndag 20 april 2020 skrev Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com>:
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Something else that might help with diagnosis is taking pictures of the
>>> screen with known, simple elements on the screen.
>>> e.g.:
>>>          - clear the screen
>>>          - take pic if it doesn't clear
>>>          - type a simple character like a "-"or "1"
>>>          - pic
>>>          - type a half line or full line of characters
>>>          - pic
>>>          - type different characters on two different lines
>>>          - pic
>>>
>>> The idea being to find out, from simple known patterns, where the pixels
>>> end up being displayed,
>>> so it may be possible to figure out what's happening with the scan,
>>> whether it's getting stretched, folding over, etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> That is a good idea. Loop the terminal and create a bunch of "known
>> references".
>>
>> Might add that it would be interesting to see one single character on a
>> lets say 4 different positions. Column 0, Column 20, Column 40 and end of
>> line. Approximately since it is hard to be exact.
>>
>> /Mattis
>>


-- 
Hector Peraza
BrightSpec NV/SA
Waterfront Researchpark
Galileilaan 15 (Darwin)
2845 Niel
BTW/VAT: BE 0846.102.393
http://www.brightspec.be


From davidc at microteam.dk  Tue Apr 21 11:30:41 2020
From: davidc at microteam.dk (David Christiansen)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:30:41 +0200
Subject: Motorola EXORciser M6800 System
In-Reply-To: <5b16fc40.1c69fb81.91e8d.b29d@mx.google.com>
References: <5b16fc40.1c69fb81.91e8d.b29d@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <8582d940-0d88-f671-5062-fe25d585be9d@microteam.dk>

6800 manuals?

I think I have all the wanted manuals physical + a lot more on the boards..

Also a lot of the boards + an Exorciser 1 setup with CRT interface

Got a couple of ADDS Viewpoint terminals if somebody should be interested

It's a last call situation as I am creatin space for newer things

Introduced the 6800 system on the danish market as MOTA distributor from 
1975

Best regards David Christiansen


-- 
Denne e-mail blev kontrolleret for virusser af Avast antivirussoftware.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From mark at matlockfamily.com  Tue Apr 21 10:08:37 2020
From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:08:37 -0500
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
Message-ID: <C90586FD-DE28-4121-A948-1694565B01AB@MatlockFamily.com>


> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:29:44 -0400
> From: Chris Zach <cz at alembic.crystel.com>
> To: CCTalk mailing list <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
> Message-ID: <3efa4105-3d3d-bb98-0358-8c46fca0fdcf at alembic.crystel.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> So I picked up an 11/84 CPU, 3mb of memory, and a 11/84 Unibus card on 
> Ebay. Goal is to speed up my fastest 11 here
> 
> For boot time, the diagnostics run in 13 seconds (from when it starts to 
> prompt) on the 11/73 board I have and 13 seconds on the 11/84 board. 
> This is with a camintonn 2mb half height memory board.
> 
> Put in the first PMI module above the 11/84 CPU and tried it out. This 
> is a CA rev board which apparently only works in a Unibus pdp11 and not 
> a Q-bus one. Apparently it does work.
> 
> So what exactly was the bug with the older PMI memory? Block mode DMA, 
> I'm using an MTI ESDI controller which can do 16 word block DMA on Q 
> Bus. Something else?


Chris,
   Congrats on the PDP-11/84! I also have a PDP-11/84 that uses one of Joerg?s Hoppe?s 
UniBone devices to simultaneously emulate MSCP disks, RL02 disks (including the 
RL02 Load/Ready/WriteProtect/ and fault lights) and a DL11.

   I have a question about something you said above, that you are using a MTI 
ESDI disk controller and then you mention Qbus block mode DMA. Are you able to use a 
Qbus MTI controller in the 11/84?s Qbus section of the backplane? This is something 
I?ve often wondered about but never tried. 

  Also, you mention putting the PMI memory above the 11/84 CPU. In the 11/83 
Qbus backplane this is of course determines whether the M8637 memory is accessed via 
Q22 or PMI. In the 11/84 System Maintenance Guide Figure 2-8 shows the 
CPU card above the memory which if you were to do this in the 11/83 would mean 
that the memory will be accessed via Q22 and essentially become an 11/73.
In my 11/83 I have run both configurations to understand and measure the benefit of PMI.

   As has been mentioned the 11/84 can use any of the M8637 memory boards but the
11/83 can only use the M8637-D or -E versions. For anyone who is curious about what
Happens when a M8637-C version board is used as PMI memory in an 11/83 I can speak
From experience. This was running RSX11M+ and it boots fine but after a few minutes if
The system is active, the console starts to report that various installed tasks are corrupted
And the system will XDT a bit later. After this the disk is corrupted and you will need to restore
the system disk from backups after you get the correct PMI memory boards.

   I?m not completely sure how the write DMA operations put bad data through the disk controller
(I was using an Emulex UC07 with a SCSI2SD) into the disks but that is what happens.

Mark Matlock

From mark at matlockfamily.com  Tue Apr 21 10:48:08 2020
From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:48:08 -0500
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
Message-ID: <BD0FCA48-983E-4EE9-A46F-9FE45DC49241@MatlockFamily.com>

> 
> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:29:44 -0400
> From: Chris Zach <cz at alembic.crystel.com>
> To: CCTalk mailing list <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
> Message-ID: <3efa4105-3d3d-bb98-0358-8c46fca0fdcf at alembic.crystel.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> So I picked up an 11/84 CPU, 3mb of memory, and a 11/84 Unibus card on 
> Ebay. Goal is to speed up my fastest 11 here
> 
> For boot time, the diagnostics run in 13 seconds (from when it starts to 
> prompt) on the 11/73 board I have and 13 seconds on the 11/84 board. 
> This is with a camintonn 2mb half height memory board.
> 
> Put in the first PMI module above the 11/84 CPU and tried it out. This 
> is a CA rev board which apparently only works in a Unibus pdp11 and not 
> a Q-bus one. Apparently it does work.
> 
> So what exactly was the bug with the older PMI memory? Block mode DMA, 
> I'm using an MTI ESDI controller which can do 16 word block DMA on Q 
> Bus. Something else?


Chris,
  Congrats on the PDP-11/84! I also have a PDP-11/84 that uses one of Joerg?s Hoppe?s 
UniBone devices to simultaneously emulate MSCP disks, RL02 disks (including the 
RL02 Load/Ready/WriteProtect/ and fault lights) and a DL11.

  I have a question about something you said above, that you are using a MTI 
ESDI disk controller and then you mention Qbus block mode DMA. Are you able to use a 
Qbus MTI controller in the 11/84?s Qbus section of the backplane? This is something 
I?ve often wondered about but never tried. 

 Also, you mention putting the PMI memory above the 11/84 CPU. In the 11/83 
Qbus backplane this is of course determines whether the M8637 memory is accessed via 
Q22 or PMI. In the 11/84 System Maintenance Guide Figure 2-8 shows the 
CPU card above the memory which if you were to do this in the 11/83 would mean 
that the memory will be accessed via Q22 and essentially become an 11/73.
In my 11/83 I have run both configurations to understand and measure the benefit of PMI.

  As has been mentioned the 11/84 can use any of the M8637 memory boards but the
11/83 can only use the M8637-D or -E versions. For anyone who is curious about what
Happens when a M8637-C version board is used as PMI memory in an 11/83 I can speak
From experience. This was running RSX11M+ and it boots fine but after a few minutes if
The system is active, the console starts to report that various installed tasks are corrupted
And the system will XDT a bit later. After this the disk is corrupted and you will need to restore
the system disk from backups after you get the correct PMI memory boards.

  I?m not completely sure how the write DMA operations put bad data through the disk controller
(I was using an Emulex UC07 with a SCSI2SD) into the disks but that is what happens.

Mark Matlock

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Apr 21 15:00:33 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:00:33 -0400
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <58A706EF-1884-483B-862E-B3A17FD50258@shaw.ca>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca>
 <CABr82S+DMoB+W6EvXp8BE+7AERXie5HO=5yZH4yEqb2RYyNvEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SKM1mUQbmfjie6GthtG9UeyhyAmT+kTp3u-SnMExUAhvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2ad5a1e-10fe-6201-7c65-411e0846de4e@alembic.crystel.com>
 <58A706EF-1884-483B-862E-B3A17FD50258@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <86a10d85-6d00-0131-b28a-7792acc8b901@alembic.crystel.com>

> It's conceivable there was a revision change where the -12V was changed to -15V, but it does seem unlikely.
> 
> The -12 is used by the vertical deflection circuit, the CRT filament, (and the RS-232).

Well, vertical deflection seems to be my problem so this may make sense.

Until I figure this out I'm going to pull that jumper to remove power 
from the HV circuits. I'm guessing the circuit can regulate with no load.

> E2.2 and E2.3 should be around 0V.
> E2.6 I expect would normally be within +/- 2V of GND.
> If E2.6 is way-positive (>Q4.E, > ~ +2.6V), then E2 is attempting to throttle down the output but failing due to some failure around Q4/Q12.
> 
> Measure the voltages on Q4 and Q12.
> They could be leaky or low-gain.
> It's conceivable Q12 has a CE short, but I'd expect the input to the reg to be more than -15.

*nod* I just took a look at Q12 and it's not shorted which is good. It 
looks to be the regulator power transistor, the other components vary 
the base to keep the voltage at the output constant under load. The 
input voltage to the circuit is around -24v so it looks like the 
rectifier diodes are ok enough.

> The low -5 is odd, zener D14 looks to be a 5.1V type.

Yeah, that is really odd, especially if -5v isn't really used. I wonder 
if the zener diode is shorted, that could cause all sorts of weirdness. 
I'll check.

C

From tingox at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 15:13:24 2020
From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 22:13:24 +0200
Subject: Pdp11/05 boot media
In-Reply-To: <0d8c597f-8e33-f7db-3b25-cce07c480c38@sydex.com>
References: <CAM_9E63U0qxDFdUW2Risf9QQX=cjt=9LHokojK309dDFmT-5RQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBueHivqJFpEnT98iEyNNwPgW291bs=geoAn9rSwqc_t09w@mail.gmail.com>
 <0d8c597f-8e33-f7db-3b25-cce07c480c38@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ_iqtbGjfqVC4szdDQVERZWif1r6j9voXzC_dVfOnS=JigEeg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 4:32 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Yes, that's assuming you have a PC with an FDC capable of
> writing/formatting FM floppies.
>
> --Chuck

Since nobody has mentioned it in this thread already Dave Dunfield's
TestFDC is good for finding out if the FDC in a PC is capable.
Downloadable here: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm
(Chuck knows this of course, but the OP might not)

HTH, HAND, stay safe.
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Apr 21 15:17:07 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:17:07 -0400
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
In-Reply-To: <BD0FCA48-983E-4EE9-A46F-9FE45DC49241@MatlockFamily.com>
References: <BD0FCA48-983E-4EE9-A46F-9FE45DC49241@MatlockFamily.com>
Message-ID: <27647f0e-19d4-b484-d288-e9f3bb715363@alembic.crystel.com>

Thanks Mark! Actually this was just the boards from the 11/84 (no idea 
what happened to the chassis, drat) so it's an 11/84 CPU (18mhz, FPP 
chip installed), 2 PMI boards (one old 2mb, one new 1mb) a console board 
of some sort and the Unibus map.

I popped this into my BA23 to speed things up a bit in place of my quad 
height 11/73 CPU with 2mb memory. So far it seems to work, and with the 
CA memory in the PMI slot managed to boot RSX11M 4.2 and compile up EMPIRE.

My guess is the 11/84's Unibus talks directly to the PMI bus and 
orchestrates the data transfers, but there is something wrong when the 
PMI memory is accessed on the true Q bus. That would not happen on an 
11/84 (CPU and Map use PMI only) but when you have a Q bus DMA device it 
probably manifests at random. It's possible the MTI card is throttling 
the DMA to single mode instead of hog mode, wonder if I want to screw up 
my disk to verify this....

Drat. On the positive side it's chock full of 256k chips, which I could 
pull off and put on the EA board to bring it up to 2mb memory. I have 
air heat tools and a pre-heater so getting the chips off should be 
pretty basic. Getting them on the new board though could be a pain since 
all the holes are soldered over....

No way to reprogram or fix it I assume?

C

On 4/21/2020 11:48 AM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:29:44 -0400
>> From: Chris Zach <cz at alembic.crystel.com>
>> To: CCTalk mailing list <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
>> Message-ID: <3efa4105-3d3d-bb98-0358-8c46fca0fdcf at alembic.crystel.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>
>> So I picked up an 11/84 CPU, 3mb of memory, and a 11/84 Unibus card on
>> Ebay. Goal is to speed up my fastest 11 here
>>
>> For boot time, the diagnostics run in 13 seconds (from when it starts to
>> prompt) on the 11/73 board I have and 13 seconds on the 11/84 board.
>> This is with a camintonn 2mb half height memory board.
>>
>> Put in the first PMI module above the 11/84 CPU and tried it out. This
>> is a CA rev board which apparently only works in a Unibus pdp11 and not
>> a Q-bus one. Apparently it does work.
>>
>> So what exactly was the bug with the older PMI memory? Block mode DMA,
>> I'm using an MTI ESDI controller which can do 16 word block DMA on Q
>> Bus. Something else?
> 
> 
> Chris,
>    Congrats on the PDP-11/84! I also have a PDP-11/84 that uses one of Joerg?s Hoppe?s
> UniBone devices to simultaneously emulate MSCP disks, RL02 disks (including the
> RL02 Load/Ready/WriteProtect/ and fault lights) and a DL11.
> 
>    I have a question about something you said above, that you are using a MTI
> ESDI disk controller and then you mention Qbus block mode DMA. Are you able to use a
> Qbus MTI controller in the 11/84?s Qbus section of the backplane? This is something
> I?ve often wondered about but never tried.
> 
>   Also, you mention putting the PMI memory above the 11/84 CPU. In the 11/83
> Qbus backplane this is of course determines whether the M8637 memory is accessed via
> Q22 or PMI. In the 11/84 System Maintenance Guide Figure 2-8 shows the
> CPU card above the memory which if you were to do this in the 11/83 would mean
> that the memory will be accessed via Q22 and essentially become an 11/73.
> In my 11/83 I have run both configurations to understand and measure the benefit of PMI.
> 
>    As has been mentioned the 11/84 can use any of the M8637 memory boards but the
> 11/83 can only use the M8637-D or -E versions. For anyone who is curious about what
> Happens when a M8637-C version board is used as PMI memory in an 11/83 I can speak
>  From experience. This was running RSX11M+ and it boots fine but after a few minutes if
> The system is active, the console starts to report that various installed tasks are corrupted
> And the system will XDT a bit later. After this the disk is corrupted and you will need to restore
> the system disk from backups after you get the correct PMI memory boards.
> 
>    I?m not completely sure how the write DMA operations put bad data through the disk controller
> (I was using an Emulex UC07 with a SCSI2SD) into the disks but that is what happens.
> 
> Mark Matlock
> 

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Apr 21 16:36:33 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:36:33 -0400
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <58A706EF-1884-483B-862E-B3A17FD50258@shaw.ca>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82S+ptzE7fgouNk=Z+HW=qecww0bdfTF9qU0HYLHsBg1CRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca>
 <CABr82S+DMoB+W6EvXp8BE+7AERXie5HO=5yZH4yEqb2RYyNvEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SKM1mUQbmfjie6GthtG9UeyhyAmT+kTp3u-SnMExUAhvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2ad5a1e-10fe-6201-7c65-411e0846de4e@alembic.crystel.com>
 <58A706EF-1884-483B-862E-B3A17FD50258@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <cfa3e1df-0757-805d-077b-1a553135b4a3@alembic.crystel.com>

Ok, some test results below.

1) Are we sure J2-2 should be -12? It really seems to like being -15.
2) The voltage across the zener diode there is a nice solid -3.8-3.9v. 
It appears to be a germanium diode (.1v drop across, both directions) I 
could disconnect it and see if that makes things better.
3)

> E2.2 and E2.3 should be around 0V.E2.2 is -.8 volts referenced to ground.
E2.3 is -22mv referenced to ground
E2.6 is around .6v. Ramps up from about .58 at startup to .61 then down 
to .60something. Note that is a positive voltage wrt ground.

Q12 was reading
-24.4v emitter
-15v collector
-23.8v base
Q12 does not have a CE short

What is this using as a reference to get the -12v from the transistor?

Maybe the zener is just out of spec. Can someone with a VT52 cross check 
my voltages to see if they are accurate?

Thanks all!


> E2.6 I expect would normally be within +/- 2V of GND.
> If E2.6 is way-positive (>Q4.E, > ~ +2.6V), then E2 is attempting to throttle down the output but failing due to some failure around Q4/Q12.
> 
> Measure the voltages on Q4 and Q12.
> They could be leaky or low-gain.
> It's conceivable Q12 has a CE short, but I'd expect the input to the reg to be more than -15.
> 
> The low -5 is odd, zener D14 looks to be a 5.1V type.
> R45 is probably burning up.
> I haven't spotted anything in the schematic that actually uses the -5,
> it looks to be provided for some alternative character generator (schematic pdf.42),
> so that may depend on what character generator chip / daughter board is used in your unit.
> 

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Apr 21 16:47:45 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:47:45 -0400
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <cfa3e1df-0757-805d-077b-1a553135b4a3@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca>
 <CABr82S+DMoB+W6EvXp8BE+7AERXie5HO=5yZH4yEqb2RYyNvEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SKM1mUQbmfjie6GthtG9UeyhyAmT+kTp3u-SnMExUAhvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2ad5a1e-10fe-6201-7c65-411e0846de4e@alembic.crystel.com>
 <58A706EF-1884-483B-862E-B3A17FD50258@shaw.ca>
 <cfa3e1df-0757-805d-077b-1a553135b4a3@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <f732fdd5-8ff6-069c-fc44-4203a171715c@alembic.crystel.com>

I wonder if I would go straight to hell if I just pulled the Q12 
transistor and wired in a 12 volt wall wart between ground (J2-2) and 
+12 (ground) to get -12....

C

On 4/21/2020 5:36 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Ok, some test results below.
> 
> 1) Are we sure J2-2 should be -12? It really seems to like being -15.
> 2) The voltage across the zener diode there is a nice solid -3.8-3.9v. 
> It appears to be a germanium diode (.1v drop across, both directions) I 
> could disconnect it and see if that makes things better.
> 3)
> 
>> E2.2 and E2.3 should be around 0V.E2.2 is -.8 volts referenced to ground.
> E2.3 is -22mv referenced to ground
> E2.6 is around .6v. Ramps up from about .58 at startup to .61 then down 
> to .60something. Note that is a positive voltage wrt ground.
> 
> Q12 was reading
> -24.4v emitter
> -15v collector
> -23.8v base
> Q12 does not have a CE short
> 
> What is this using as a reference to get the -12v from the transistor?
> 
> Maybe the zener is just out of spec. Can someone with a VT52 cross check 
> my voltages to see if they are accurate?
> 
> Thanks all!
> 
> 
>> E2.6 I expect would normally be within +/- 2V of GND.
>> If E2.6 is way-positive (>Q4.E, > ~ +2.6V), then E2 is attempting to 
>> throttle down the output but failing due to some failure around Q4/Q12.
>>
>> Measure the voltages on Q4 and Q12.
>> They could be leaky or low-gain.
>> It's conceivable Q12 has a CE short, but I'd expect the input to the 
>> reg to be more than -15.
>>
>> The low -5 is odd, zener D14 looks to be a 5.1V type.
>> R45 is probably burning up.
>> I haven't spotted anything in the schematic that actually uses the -5,
>> it looks to be provided for some alternative character generator 
>> (schematic pdf.42),
>> so that may depend on what character generator chip / daughter board 
>> is used in your unit.
>>

From malcolm at avitech.com.au  Tue Apr 21 17:48:50 2020
From: malcolm at avitech.com.au (Malcolm Macleod)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:48:50 +1000
Subject: Pdp11/05 boot media
Message-ID: <01e101d6182f$0af97b20$20ec7160$@avitech.com.au>

> Hi everybody

> 

> I'm the proud owner of a PDP11/05 system with a couple of 8" floppy
drives.  I believe they are likely to be RX01s.

> 

> Does anybody on the list have some boot media that they could provide.  I
understand that the controller can't format

> the disks so I'm in a frustrating state where I don't know where to start.

> 

> Doug Jackson

> 

> Canberra  Australia.

 

Hi Doug,

 

I'm in Melbourne and have several working PDP-11's.  I can send you a couple
of bootable RT11 8" disks.  I'll need to know whether they are RX01s or
RX02s though.  Perhaps send me an email offline and we can take it from
there?

 

Malcolm

www.avitech.com.au <http://www.avitech.com.au> 

 


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 21 18:07:37 2020
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:07:37 +0000
Subject: Motorola EXORciser M6800 System
In-Reply-To: <8582d940-0d88-f671-5062-fe25d585be9d@microteam.dk>
References: <5b16fc40.1c69fb81.91e8d.b29d@mx.google.com>,
 <8582d940-0d88-f671-5062-fe25d585be9d@microteam.dk>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB56082DF9262509D8A77BC917A3D50@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

You should also ask on the vcf forum. There are a number of 6800 people there.
Dwight

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of David Christiansen via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 9:30 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Motorola EXORciser M6800 System

6800 manuals?

I think I have all the wanted manuals physical + a lot more on the boards..

Also a lot of the boards + an Exorciser 1 setup with CRT interface

Got a couple of ADDS Viewpoint terminals if somebody should be interested

It's a last call situation as I am creatin space for newer things

Introduced the 6800 system on the danish market as MOTA distributor from
1975

Best regards David Christiansen


--
Denne e-mail blev kontrolleret for virusser af Avast antivirussoftware.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From rar at syssrc.com  Tue Apr 21 18:16:41 2020
From: rar at syssrc.com (rar)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:16:41 +0000
Subject: Univac 490 Gallery Talk - 1963 Real Time Computer
Message-ID: <3f595f7ba6c249929d2882306fa08b1b@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com>

The System Source Computer Museum is closed due to COVID-19, so we are making some video gallery talks.

Here is the first one:  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq7aVCc2GP8

The video describes some of the applications of this 57 year old computer including it original use at Goddard Space Flight Center

Bob Roswell
museum at syssrc.com
https://museum.syssrc.com

From innfoclassics at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 18:53:39 2020
From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:53:39 -0700
Subject: World's most frustrating FTGH giveaway - Palm Pilot box
In-Reply-To: <D2BDF89B-DC60-4AFA-AB34-0E55EDC07B50@swri.edu>
References: <D2BDF89B-DC60-4AFA-AB34-0E55EDC07B50@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <CAL2B=mFAE0kRecyX=E31+Gz9qbaq0hOXV8mfRd1p8ciOZDh6NQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mark,

I haven't looked a the Classic Computer List in a couple of months so
please forgive this late post. I would be interested in the box and
contents. I collect Palm Pilots and have one to put in the box.

If it is still available I could send you my address. I would be happy to
pay postage.

Paxton Hoag
Astoria Oregon

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 9:46 PM Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> All,
> Next to go is a box in which a Palm Pilot was originally sold.
>
> The box is in great shape, shrink-wrap intact except where it was sliced
> just enough to open the top.
> The manual is in great shape.
> The registration card is in great shape.
> The order receipt is in great shape, name of original owner mis-spelled
> but otherwise apparently correct.
> The accessories catalog is in great shape.
> The software on 3 each 3.5? floppies and on CD appears to be in great
> shape (not test-read yet).
> The Now Sync accessory software, on 2 more 3.5? floppies, appears to be in
> great shape.
> The leatherette protector is in great shape, with its foam insert still
> inside keeping it shaped for the Palm Pilot.
> The DE-9 to DB-25 serial port adaptor is in great shape.
> For Pete?s sake, the screen protector that peeled off the Palm Pilot
> screen is in great shape,
> lovingly tucked into the manual.
>
> You have probably noticed what is missing.
> There are no electronics included.
> No Palm Pilot, no charging/syncing cradle.
> Grrrr.
>
> You probably want this if you picked up the Palm Pilot at ShopGoodwill
> somewhere, want to re-create that 1997 ?first on the block with a personal
> digital accessory? feeling and really enjoy going through the accessory
> paperwork.
>
> https://www.shopgoodwill.com/Item/87198940
>
> (but I think that is a different model).
>
> Free to a Good Home, preferably one with an actual Palm Pilot. Shipping
> will be from San Antonio TX, 78254. If as I suspect, nobody interested,
> headed to the trash. Standard rules, I?ll wait for a week or so, ship to
> the sender of the first email in my in-box or to Al K if he emails before I
> ship.
>
>                                         - Mark
>                                         210-522-6025 office
>                                         210-379-4635 cell
>
>

-- 
Paxton Hoag
Astoria, OR
USA

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Apr 21 19:27:54 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:27:54 -0400
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <cfa3e1df-0757-805d-077b-1a553135b4a3@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca>
 <CABr82S+DMoB+W6EvXp8BE+7AERXie5HO=5yZH4yEqb2RYyNvEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SKM1mUQbmfjie6GthtG9UeyhyAmT+kTp3u-SnMExUAhvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2ad5a1e-10fe-6201-7c65-411e0846de4e@alembic.crystel.com>
 <58A706EF-1884-483B-862E-B3A17FD50258@shaw.ca>
 <cfa3e1df-0757-805d-077b-1a553135b4a3@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <07233686-d6ca-c559-3102-f931078edd84@alembic.crystel.com>

Meantime reading the manual I found an interesting test: If you short 
emitter to base on Q4 (easiest way is to jumper diode D10) the voltage 
on the -12v supply goes to .4 volts. They're saying it's E2, R15,R17,R14.

Is there a way I can test the op-amp in circuit? Maybe it's dead.

C


On 4/21/2020 5:36 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Ok, some test results below.
> 
> 1) Are we sure J2-2 should be -12? It really seems to like being -15.
> 2) The voltage across the zener diode there is a nice solid -3.8-3.9v. 
> It appears to be a germanium diode (.1v drop across, both directions) I 
> could disconnect it and see if that makes things better.
> 3)
> 
>> E2.2 and E2.3 should be around 0V.E2.2 is -.8 volts referenced to ground.
> E2.3 is -22mv referenced to ground
> E2.6 is around .6v. Ramps up from about .58 at startup to .61 then down 
> to .60something. Note that is a positive voltage wrt ground.
> 
> Q12 was reading
> -24.4v emitter
> -15v collector
> -23.8v base
> Q12 does not have a CE short
> 
> What is this using as a reference to get the -12v from the transistor?
> 
> Maybe the zener is just out of spec. Can someone with a VT52 cross check 
> my voltages to see if they are accurate?
> 
> Thanks all!
> 
> 
>> E2.6 I expect would normally be within +/- 2V of GND.
>> If E2.6 is way-positive (>Q4.E, > ~ +2.6V), then E2 is attempting to 
>> throttle down the output but failing due to some failure around Q4/Q12.
>>
>> Measure the voltages on Q4 and Q12.
>> They could be leaky or low-gain.
>> It's conceivable Q12 has a CE short, but I'd expect the input to the 
>> reg to be more than -15.
>>
>> The low -5 is odd, zener D14 looks to be a 5.1V type.
>> R45 is probably burning up.
>> I haven't spotted anything in the schematic that actually uses the -5,
>> it looks to be provided for some alternative character generator 
>> (schematic pdf.42),
>> so that may depend on what character generator chip / daughter board 
>> is used in your unit.
>>

From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Tue Apr 21 22:09:21 2020
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:09:21 -0700
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <07233686-d6ca-c559-3102-f931078edd84@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <d33204b2-aceb-9830-371d-a660e0c6ce9f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfoqt2ssD5DUHT_+XkSZm08-+UfA3AZ4ce0=JKHdBB5T+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca>
 <CABr82S+DMoB+W6EvXp8BE+7AERXie5HO=5yZH4yEqb2RYyNvEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SKM1mUQbmfjie6GthtG9UeyhyAmT+kTp3u-SnMExUAhvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2ad5a1e-10fe-6201-7c65-411e0846de4e@alembic.crystel.com>
 <58A706EF-1884-483B-862E-B3A17FD50258@shaw.ca>
 <cfa3e1df-0757-805d-077b-1a553135b4a3@alembic.crystel.com>
 <07233686-d6ca-c559 -3102-f931078edd84@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <45AF14CB-22B4-4313-9BF9-0F7BBCCB461A@shaw.ca>

On 2020-Apr-21, at 5:27 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Meantime reading the manual I found an interesting test: If you short emitter to base on Q4 (easiest way is to jumper diode D10) the voltage on the -12v supply goes to .4 volts. They're saying it's E2, R15,R17,R14.
> 
> Is there a way I can test the op-amp in circuit? Maybe it's dead.


The three regulators are all referenced via D8 (~ +5V).

Circuit-wise, for the -12, 0V/GND is the reference input at E2.3.
The D8 5V ref and the targetted output V are divided via R15 and R17,R18 to provide the sense input at E2.2.
If one does the R ratio of the three resistors, it comes out, as would be expected, to ~ 0V.

I'm a little surprised there's that much difference between E2.2 & E2.3 ( (-0.022) - (-0.8) ) without sending the E2 output off to +V, but not sure how much device variability to expect normally.

You might look for the on-board values of R15,17,18. If they have been changed from those values specified in the schematic, then the -12 may have been changed to -15 (could do the ratio calc).

Also what is the V at Q4.E (should be ~ +2.6V), also Q4.B & C.


> On 4/21/2020 5:36 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>> Ok, some test results below.
>> 1) Are we sure J2-2 should be -12? It really seems to like being -15.
>> 2) The voltage across the zener diode there is a nice solid -3.8-3.9v. It appears to be a germanium diode (.1v drop across, both directions) I could disconnect it and see if that makes things better.
>> 3)

>> E2.2 is -.8 volts referenced to ground.
>> E2.3 is -22mv referenced to ground
>> E2.6 is around .6v. Ramps up from about .58 at startup to .61 then down to .60something. Note that is a positive voltage wrt ground.
>> Q12 was reading
>> -24.4v emitter
>> -15v collector
>> -23.8v base
>> Q12 does not have a CE short
>> What is this using as a reference to get the -12v from the transistor?


From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Apr 21 22:35:04 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:35:04 -0400
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <45AF14CB-22B4-4313-9BF9-0F7BBCCB461A@shaw.ca>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca>
 <CABr82S+DMoB+W6EvXp8BE+7AERXie5HO=5yZH4yEqb2RYyNvEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SKM1mUQbmfjie6GthtG9UeyhyAmT+kTp3u-SnMExUAhvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2ad5a1e-10fe-6201-7c65-411e0846de4e@alembic.crystel.com>
 <58A706EF-1884-483B-862E-B3A17FD50258@shaw.ca>
 <cfa3e1df-0757-805d-077b-1a553135b4a3@alembic.crystel.com>
 <07233686-d6ca-c559-3102-f931078edd84@alembic.crystel.com>
 <45AF14CB-22B4-4313-9BF9-0F7BBCCB461A@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <7895c85e-5773-cc2b-e5e8-f6baa83b3044@alembic.crystel.com>

> The D8 5V ref and the targetted output V are divided via R15 and R17,R18 to provide the sense input at E2.2.
> If one does the R ratio of the three resistors, it comes out, as would be expected, to ~ 0V.

Ah hah, that is clever. I wonder if the .8 volts means the output is 
higher than what should be expected and the op amp isn't amping down or 
something. However if the op amp was blown it should just allow full 
voltage through. Maybe (is there a crowbar circuit in there).

> I'm a little surprised there's that much difference between E2.2 & E2.3 ( (-0.022) - (-0.8) ) without sending the E2 output off to +V, but not sure how much device variability to expect normally.

> You might look for the on-board values of R15,17,18. If they have been changed from those values specified in the schematic, then the -12 may have been changed to -15 (could do the ratio calc).

I tried measuring the resistance in circuit, but that never works. It's 
possible they are measuring out properly and that .6 volts is the 
representation of too much voltage at the output side (-15 instead of 
the expected -12).

> Also what is the V at Q4.E (should be ~ +2.6V), also Q4.B & C.

I'll check that tomorrow. Connecting Q4.E to B did bring the output 
voltage down to pretty much zero so that does seem to work.

If I can't figure this out I might just pull Q10 and put a 7912 in its 
place. One chip does the whole job of regulating the output, end of 
story. Bad me of course, but what the heck and if the display came up I 
would know where the problem was.

If it turns out the op amp is dead, would a 741 work as a replacement?


From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Tue Apr 21 23:15:08 2020
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 21:15:08 -0700
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <7895c85e-5773-cc2b-e5e8-f6baa83b3044@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca>
 <CABr82S+DMoB+W6EvXp8BE+7AERXie5HO=5yZH4yEqb2RYyNvEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SKM1mUQbmfjie6GthtG9UeyhyAmT+kTp3u-SnMExUAhvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2ad5a1e-10fe-6201-7c65-411e0846de4e@alembic.crystel.com>
 <58A706EF-1884-483B-862E-B3A17FD50258@shaw.ca>
 <cfa3e1df-0757-805d-077b-1a553135b4a3@alembic.crystel.com>
 <07233686-d6ca-c559-3102-f931078edd84@alembic.crystel.com>
 <45AF14CB-22B4-4313-9BF9-0F7BBCCB461A@shaw.ca>
 <7895c85e-5773-cc2b-e5e8-f6baa83b3044@ale mbic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <FD97E774-3A41-4345-AD5E-F63C801C5220@shaw.ca>

On 2020-Apr-21, at 8:35 PM, Chris Zach wrote:
>> The D8 5V ref and the targetted output V are divided via R15 and R17,R18 to provide the sense input at E2.2.
>> If one does the R ratio of the three resistors, it comes out, as would be expected, to ~ 0V.
> 
> Ah hah, that is clever. I wonder if the .8 volts means the output is higher than what should be expected and the op amp isn't amping down or something. However if the op amp was blown it should just allow full voltage through. Maybe (is there a crowbar circuit in there).
> 
>> I'm a little surprised there's that much difference between E2.2 & E2.3 ( (-0.022) - (-0.8) ) without sending the E2 output off to +V, but not sure how much device variability to expect normally.
> 
>> You might look for the on-board values of R15,17,18. If they have been changed from those values specified in the schematic, then the -12 may have been changed to -15 (could do the ratio calc).
> 
> I tried measuring the resistance in circuit, but that never works. It's possible they are measuring out properly and that .6 volts is the representation of too much voltage at the output side (-15 instead of the expected -12).

Look at the marked (as opposed to measured) values of the (3) installed Rs, to see if they have been intentionally changed in a revision to alter the output V.


>> Also what is the V at Q4.E (should be ~ +2.6V), also Q4.B & C.
> 
> I'll check that tomorrow. Connecting Q4.E to B did bring the output voltage down to pretty much zero so that does seem to work.

When Q4.BE shorted, E2.6 should swing well-negative.


> If I can't figure this out I might just pull Q10 and put a 7912 in its place. One chip does the whole job of regulating the output, end of story. Bad me of course, but what the heck and if the display came up I would know where the problem was.
> 
> If it turns out the op amp is dead, would a 741 work as a replacement?

Note comment lower left corner of schematic page.

From osi.superboard at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 15:35:26 2020
From: osi.superboard at gmail.com (osi.superboard)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 21:35:26 +0100
Subject: Motorola EXORciser M6800 System
In-Reply-To: <8582d940-0d88-f671-5062-fe25d585be9d@microteam.dk>
References: <5b16fc40.1c69fb81.91e8d.b29d@mx.google.com>
 <8582d940-0d88-f671-5062-fe25d585be9d@microteam.dk>
Message-ID: <ecca6439-7de1-c988-2699-a26465083cd3@gmail.com>

Hi David,

do you have Micromodule Manuals for the 6800 and 6809 single boards?

Cheers Thomas

Am 21.04.2020 um 17:30 schrieb David Christiansen via cctalk:
> 6800 manuals?
>
> I think I have all the wanted manuals physical + a lot more on the 
> boards..
>
> Also a lot of the boards + an Exorciser 1 setup with CRT interface
>
> Got a couple of ADDS Viewpoint terminals if somebody should be interested
>
> It's a last call situation as I am creatin space for newer things
>
> Introduced the 6800 system on the danish market as MOTA distributor 
> from 1975
>
> Best regards David Christiansen
>
>

From bobsmithofd at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 17:13:15 2020
From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:13:15 -0400
Subject: Looking for a document regarding PDP8
In-Reply-To: <CAHtNYbXXh0-qj6+UQtvav0Ypypsn3OkiJJcm=QMu2ckcwsL1Vw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHtNYbXMDf4b8ZDHoW-_NwONHwkRXwU+ZPn0XZhBPPppEFydMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <80bfb3d3-131d-1ff2-226b-72c6c9d0a708@bitsavers.org>
 <CAHtNYbXXh0-qj6+UQtvav0Ypypsn3OkiJJcm=QMu2ckcwsL1Vw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHtNYbXn_H+4CAKbzbAb4yCzvxm2hYo7RpPEVXy0Nr_LZEtNaw@mail.gmail.com>

I found the referenced paper, wrong authors - it was Bell and
Casasent, in a cache paper, a bit earlier than 78

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:17 PM Bob Smith <bobsmithofd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Nice!
> BUT  no my BigMac is a Mac Pro 1,1 tweaked with TB of disk with my old
> files on it.
> I call it BigMac cause it is about the same weight as the full chassis
> PDP8/e I had at DEC that I lugged from one spot to another.
> I did power it up and ran a number of searches, two more machines and
> 8 more drives to search.
> Thanks Al! Good Laugh!
> bb
>
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 3:30 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 4/16/20 10:12 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote:
> > > I am bout to pull out my BigMac that might
> > > have the data in it.
> >
> > As in the Apple 68020 Rich Page computer?
> > If so, I'd REALLY like to get a copy of the disk image
> > to use on the BigMac that the museum has.
> >
> > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102747603
> >
> >

From doug at doughq.com  Wed Apr 22 01:37:10 2020
From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:37:10 +1000
Subject: Looking for a document regarding PDP8
In-Reply-To: <CAHtNYbXn_H+4CAKbzbAb4yCzvxm2hYo7RpPEVXy0Nr_LZEtNaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHtNYbXMDf4b8ZDHoW-_NwONHwkRXwU+ZPn0XZhBPPppEFydMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <80bfb3d3-131d-1ff2-226b-72c6c9d0a708@bitsavers.org>
 <CAHtNYbXXh0-qj6+UQtvav0Ypypsn3OkiJJcm=QMu2ckcwsL1Vw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHtNYbXn_H+4CAKbzbAb4yCzvxm2hYo7RpPEVXy0Nr_LZEtNaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM_9E63T-dGBO_UdM6ZSvte+sG3DBO_6SWRqms8UGv-VBcvBHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Is it possible to share the link.

On Wed, 22 Apr. 2020, 3:38 pm Bob Smith via cctalk, <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> I found the referenced paper, wrong authors - it was Bell and
> Casasent, in a cache paper, a bit earlier than 78
>
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:17 PM Bob Smith <bobsmithofd at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Nice!
> > BUT  no my BigMac is a Mac Pro 1,1 tweaked with TB of disk with my old
> > files on it.
> > I call it BigMac cause it is about the same weight as the full chassis
> > PDP8/e I had at DEC that I lugged from one spot to another.
> > I did power it up and ran a number of searches, two more machines and
> > 8 more drives to search.
> > Thanks Al! Good Laugh!
> > bb
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 3:30 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 4/16/20 10:12 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote:
> > > > I am bout to pull out my BigMac that might
> > > > have the data in it.
> > >
> > > As in the Apple 68020 Rich Page computer?
> > > If so, I'd REALLY like to get a copy of the disk image
> > > to use on the BigMac that the museum has.
> > >
> > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102747603
> > >
> > >
>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 07:52:27 2020
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:52:27 -0400
Subject: Univac 490 Gallery Talk - 1963 Real Time Computer
In-Reply-To: <3f595f7ba6c249929d2882306fa08b1b@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com>
References: <3f595f7ba6c249929d2882306fa08b1b@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBue2J-fOua2tPbWSc+Fp2+OVoZkJOvfJudd+xy==SDc91A@mail.gmail.com>

A true treasure and worth the trip to System Source to see in person.
First class stuff there!  (When it reopens, ug)

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 7:16 PM rar via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> The System Source Computer Museum is closed due to COVID-19, so we are
> making some video gallery talks.
>
> Here is the first one:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq7aVCc2GP8
>
> The video describes some of the applications of this 57 year old computer
> including it original use at Goddard Space Flight Center
>
> Bob Roswell
> museum at syssrc.com
> https://museum.syssrc.com
>

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Apr 22 08:39:22 2020
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:39:22 -0500
Subject: Macintosh Programmers Workbench?
Message-ID: <003801d618ab$6e889f50$4b99ddf0$@classiccmp.org>

Favor to ask: Would anyone have MPW running in some environment, such that
if I give them a PEF file they could run dumppef on it and get the symbol
table exports and such? The format is documented and I can write python to
pull out what I need, but would be so much quicker if someone had MPW
installed and running already..

 

Thanks in advance!

 

J


From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Wed Apr 22 10:11:18 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:11:18 -0400
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <FD97E774-3A41-4345-AD5E-F63C801C5220@shaw.ca>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca>
 <CABr82S+DMoB+W6EvXp8BE+7AERXie5HO=5yZH4yEqb2RYyNvEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SKM1mUQbmfjie6GthtG9UeyhyAmT+kTp3u-SnMExUAhvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2ad5a1e-10fe-6201-7c65-411e0846de4e@alembic.crystel.com>
 <58A706EF-1884-483B-862E-B3A17FD50258@shaw.ca>
 <cfa3e1df-0757-805d-077b-1a553135b4a3@alembic.crystel.com>
 <07233686-d6ca-c559-3102-f931078edd84@alembic.crystel.com>
 <45AF14CB-22B4-4313-9BF9-0F7BBCCB461A@shaw.ca>
 <7895c85e-5773-cc2b-e5e8-f6baa83b3044@alembic.crystel.com>
 <FD97E774-3A41-4345-AD5E-F63C801C5220@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <98582cf4-4140-c8a3-b5be-93a71dda66bd@alembic.crystel.com>

>>> Also what is the V at Q4.E (should be ~ +2.6V), also Q4.B & C.
Q4.E to ground is 3.05
Q4.B to ground is 3.24
Q4.C to ground is -9.18



> When Q4.BE shorted, E2.6 should swing well-negative.

Nope, 2.544 on E2.6 assuming E2's pinout is
1 8
2 7
3 6
4 5

C

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Apr 22 10:34:33 2020
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:34:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
Message-ID: <20200422153433.8FEA518C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Chris Zach

    > in place of my quad height 11/73 CPU with 2mb memory.

Sorry, which exact quad-height CPU card? 

{As someone else has previously pointed out, the /73 and the /83 are basially
the same machine (roughly the same CPU board - KDJ11-B, perhaps with different
clock crystals), just with different memories - QBUS in the /73, PMI in the
/83.  The /84 is an /83 with i) a different backplane and ii) a KTJ11-B UNIBUS
adapter.}

    > On the positive side it's chock full of 256k chips, which I could pull
    > off and put on the EA board to bring it up to 2mb memory. I have air
    > heat tools and a pre-heater so getting the chips off should be pretty
    > basic.

I would advise against that. 256K chips are readily available on eBait, and
for not much money. Pulling them may damage them, and may well also do some
damage to the memory card, in addition to making it useless.

    > Getting them on the new board though could be a pain since all the
    > holes are soldered over....

A vacuum desoldering station will easily open them. Used Hakkos can be found
on eBait for not too much money.

	Noel

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Apr 22 10:52:04 2020
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 10:52:04 -0500
Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.
In-Reply-To: <45AF14CB-22B4-4313-9BF9-0F7BBCCB461A@shaw.ca>
References: <ac609d5c-4289-59a2-5b7e-1d2f3c358bcd@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLq=32XWT2=rcTQcTqnFeC+WX+=V6jUKyG8g5zZtCS_tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqE4HkOTeAjbavDoC+L-t2bMP9hL+Y=F9JeeEf+b-CNKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CABr82SLvFbOpPk_SD2B1Kk0GtsgFY0UbT-0Hyrst9dfzJ98QKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82SJqFAuMEP1KXUU08PhJt+SNL+c8Qw_wWk4FQuMAzJsMKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca>
 <CABr82S+DMoB+W6EvXp8BE+7AERXie5HO=5yZH4yEqb2RYyNvEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SKM1mUQbmfjie6GthtG9UeyhyAmT+kTp3u-SnMExUAhvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2ad5a1e-10fe-6201-7c65-411e0846de4e@alembic.crystel.com>
 <58A706EF-1884-483B-862E-B3A17FD50258@shaw.ca>
 <cfa3e1df-0757-805d-077b-1a553135b4a3@alembic.crystel.com>
 <07233686-d6ca-c559 -3102-f931078edd84@alembic.crystel.com>
 <45AF14CB-22B4-4313-9BF9-0F7BBCCB461A@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <5EA06824.1080606@pico-systems.com>

On 04/21/2020 10:09 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:
> On 2020-Apr-21, at 5:27 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>> Meantime reading the manual I found an interesting test: If you short emitter to base on Q4 (easiest way is to jumper diode D10) the voltage on the -12v supply goes to .4 volts. They're saying it's E2, R15,R17,R14.
>>
>> Is there a way I can test the op-amp in circuit? Maybe it's dead.
>
>
Well, if the circuit **IS** regulating, then the voltage on 
the two inputs will be identical.
But, since it might not be regulating, then these voltages 
would not be equal.
But, if you can see that the + input is more positive than 
the - input, yet the output
is pegged negative, for instance, then you know either the 
op-amp is bad, or another circuit is overloading
the output and forcing it that way.

Jon

From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Wed Apr 22 10:57:33 2020
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:57:33 -0400
Subject: Univac 490 Gallery Talk - 1963 Real Time Computer
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBue2J-fOua2tPbWSc+Fp2+OVoZkJOvfJudd+xy==SDc91A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3f595f7ba6c249929d2882306fa08b1b@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com>
 <CABGJBue2J-fOua2tPbWSc+Fp2+OVoZkJOvfJudd+xy==SDc91A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7602854e-6a56-f531-08ae-12916e838ee1@ieee.org>

Thanks for the link.? I am sure I am going to come down and see your 
site when this crisis is over!

I was an FE on three Univac 418 IIs at Bell Canada in Toronto between 
1971 and 1975.

Don't suppose you have any 418s there?

cheers,

Nigel


On 22/04/2020 08:52, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> A true treasure and worth the trip to System Source to see in person.
> First class stuff there!  (When it reopens, ug)
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 7:16 PM rar via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> The System Source Computer Museum is closed due to COVID-19, so we are
>> making some video gallery talks.
>>
>> Here is the first one:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq7aVCc2GP8
>>
>> The video describes some of the applications of this 57 year old computer
>> including it original use at Goddard Space Flight Center
>>
>> Bob Roswell
>> museum at syssrc.com
>> https://museum.syssrc.com
>>
  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE, MCSE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Apr 22 10:59:01 2020
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:59:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
Message-ID: <20200422155901.9249618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mark Matlock

    > Are you able to use a Qbus MTI controller in the 11/84's Qbus section
    > of the backplane? This is something I've often wondered about but never
    > tried.

I looked into this in some detail, but I don't know:

  https://gunkies.org/wiki/KTJ11-B_UNIBUS_adapter#QBUS_slots

Amswering it definitively would probably require looking at DMA and interrupt cycles
with a logic analyzer on the bus, to see what the CPU does with them. And the KDJ11-B
and KDJ11-E (the 11/94 uses the same bacplane with a different CPU card) might act
differently.


    > For anyone who is curious about what Happens when a M8637-C version
    > board is used as PMI memory in an 11/83 I can speak From experience.
    > ...
    > After this the disk is corrupted and you will need to restore the
    > system disk from backups

Ah, very informative; thanks for reporting.

So whatever the fault is (perhaps the QBUS block transfer issue reported
up-thread), it must _seem_ to work, but fail in actuality. It would be
interesting to appply a logic analyzer, and see what the bus transaction
looks like, if it looks OK on the bus (in which case it's an internal
failure).

	Noel

From rar at syssrc.com  Wed Apr 22 13:57:06 2020
From: rar at syssrc.com (rar)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 18:57:06 +0000
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Univac 490 Gallery Talk - 1963 Real Time Computer
In-Reply-To: <7602854e-6a56-f531-08ae-12916e838ee1@ieee.org>
References: <3f595f7ba6c249929d2882306fa08b1b@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com>
 <CABGJBue2J-fOua2tPbWSc+Fp2+OVoZkJOvfJudd+xy==SDc91A@mail.gmail.com>
 <7602854e-6a56-f531-08ae-12916e838ee1@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <751a8159d13e45c9bc228d2cf41cc49b@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com>

Sorry, no 418, just the 490, and the 1218.

Bob Roswell
broswell at syssrc.com
410-771-5544 ext 4336

Computer Museum Highlights



-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk On Behalf Of Nigel Johnson via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 11:58 AM
To: Bill Degnan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Univac 490 Gallery Talk - 1963 Real Time Computer

Thanks for the link.? I am sure I am going to come down and see your site when this crisis is over!

I was an FE on three Univac 418 IIs at Bell Canada in Toronto between
1971 and 1975.

Don't suppose you have any 418s there?

cheers,

Nigel


On 22/04/2020 08:52, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> A true treasure and worth the trip to System Source to see in person.
> First class stuff there!  (When it reopens, ug)
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 7:16 PM rar via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> The System Source Computer Museum is closed due to COVID-19, so we 
>> are making some video gallery talks.
>>
>> Here is the first one:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq7aVCc2GP8
>>
>> The video describes some of the applications of this 57 year old 
>> computer including it original use at Goddard Space Flight Center
>>
>> Bob Roswell
>> museum at syssrc.com
>> https://museum.syssrc.com
>>
  

--
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE, MCSE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From couryhouse at aol.com  Wed Apr 22 14:52:15 2020
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 19:52:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Univac 490 Gallery Talk - 1963 Real Time Computer
In-Reply-To: <751a8159d13e45c9bc228d2cf41cc49b@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com>
References: <3f595f7ba6c249929d2882306fa08b1b@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com>
 <CABGJBue2J-fOua2tPbWSc+Fp2+OVoZkJOvfJudd+xy==SDc91A@mail.gmail.com>
 <7602854e-6a56-f531-08ae-12916e838ee1@ieee.org>
 <751a8159d13e45c9bc228d2cf41cc49b@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com>
Message-ID: <563969892.760261.1587585135933@mail.yahoo.com>

We? have a? UNIVAC 422 compute? at smecc..looking for the Remington typewriter unit with a removable punch and reader on it.
The? typer is like a flexowriter but? newer and? ?sleeker...although we have seen a 422? with the flexowriter? like? the UDT? had? on it.?

Have? some programming that is unique? to this? unit and? some real genuine UNIVAC program? instruction cards? that? are? duplicates? but? have? yet? to? find? anyone to buddy up? with to? share them? with that might also be struggling to get their? doing something. ARE WE THE ONLY ONES IN THE WORLD? LEFT? WITH A? 422? 
We of course? are on lock down and since we can not share photos? here? on this list? serve you? will? have? to? wait
Our? 422? is? pristine almost? ?but? one major? problem we do not have the key to open the? front? glass panel!
Lots? of? cards? lots of transistors....? we have not plugged it in? yet..? ?There is an analog power supply.... shall? we? start it off on a big? variac?? I? dunno if? we? have one big? enough. This power supply looks? beefy and there are lots? of? transistors? to light off!
Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC? The? lonley? UNIVAC? 422 information Hoarder!)

In a message dated 4/22/2020 11:57:15 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

Sorry, no 418, just the 490, and the 1218.

Bob Roswell
broswell at syssrc.com
410-771-5544 ext 4336

Computer Museum Highlights



-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk On Behalf Of Nigel Johnson via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 11:58 AM
To: Bill Degnan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Univac 490 Gallery Talk - 1963 Real Time Computer

Thanks for the link.? I am sure I am going to come down and see your site when this crisis is over!

I was an FE on three Univac 418 IIs at Bell Canada in Toronto between
1971 and 1975.

Don't suppose you have any 418s there?

cheers,

Nigel


On 22/04/2020 08:52, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> A true treasure and worth the trip to System Source to see in person.
> First class stuff there!? (When it reopens, ug)
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 7:16 PM rar via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> The System Source Computer Museum is closed due to COVID-19, so we 
>> are making some video gallery talks.
>>
>> Here is the first one:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq7aVCc2GP8
>>
>> The video describes some of the applications of this 57 year old 
>> computer including it original use at Goddard Space Flight Center
>>
>> Bob Roswell
>> museum at syssrc.com
>> https://museum.syssrc.com
>>
? 

--
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE, MCSE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:? TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
? ? Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

? ? 
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message





From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 16:08:47 2020
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 17:08:47 -0400
Subject: Univac 490 Gallery Talk - 1963 Real Time Computer
In-Reply-To: <7602854e-6a56-f531-08ae-12916e838ee1@ieee.org>
References: <3f595f7ba6c249929d2882306fa08b1b@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com>
 <CABGJBue2J-fOua2tPbWSc+Fp2+OVoZkJOvfJudd+xy==SDc91A@mail.gmail.com>
 <7602854e-6a56-f531-08ae-12916e838ee1@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudtAoa1r66NTxm0P-XucR51iAimA-SXOxpCThGFuPf=cQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:57 AM Nigel Johnson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Thanks for the link.  I am sure I am going to come down and see your
> site when this crisis is over!
>
> I was an FE on three Univac 418 IIs at Bell Canada in Toronto between
> 1971 and 1975.
>
> Don't suppose you have any 418s there?
>
> cheers,
>
> Nigel
>
>
>
The 1218 is more or less a 418.  The 418 is just oriented horizontally, the
1218 is vertically oriented for portability (loaded on a Naval ship).  My
418 and 1218 manuals' components appear to be interchangeable.
Bill
kennettclassic.com
vintagecomputer.net

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Apr 22 16:19:53 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 14:19:53 -0700
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Univac 490 Gallery Talk - 1963 Real Time Computer
In-Reply-To: <563969892.760261.1587585135933@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3f595f7ba6c249929d2882306fa08b1b@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com>
 <CABGJBue2J-fOua2tPbWSc+Fp2+OVoZkJOvfJudd+xy==SDc91A@mail.gmail.com>
 <7602854e-6a56-f531-08ae-12916e838ee1@ieee.org>
 <751a8159d13e45c9bc228d2cf41cc49b@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com>
 <563969892.760261.1587585135933@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7e2cec92-182f-8e7b-fbce-04accb41826c@sydex.com>

On 4/22/20 12:52 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:
> We? have a? UNIVAC 422 compute? at smecc..looking for the Remington typewriter unit with a removable punch and reader on it.
> The? typer is like a flexowriter but? newer and? ?sleeker...although we have seen a 422? with the flexowriter? like? the UDT? had? on it.?

I take it that the 422 is incompatible with, say, the 1100 seriesl (e.g.
1107) of the same period.

--Chuck

From emu at e-bbes.com  Wed Apr 22 14:27:13 2020
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:27:13 -0400
Subject: Grinnell Systems
Message-ID: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>

Hi all,
was just fishing in old memories & graphics systems. We had in the
1980's a big fridge from Grinnell Systems as a frame buffer on a 11/34.

Anybody remember those? Links to any documentation?

Cheers!

From imp at bsdimp.com  Wed Apr 22 16:56:54 2020
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:56:54 -0600
Subject: Unix Kermit (aka C-Kermit) version 4 spelunking
Message-ID: <CANCZdfqe=71XNgEmVMGxDsN_E17y6Q1qtLmji80+UYz2QjV7Mw@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings

I went looking for a specific version of C-Kermit to reconstruct sources
for an old system (The Boston Software Works Venix for Rainbow that I
have). I didn't find the 4C(052) I was looking for, but did find many
previous 'presumed lost' versions.

https://bsdimp.blogspot.com/2020/04/finding-kermit-4x.html

has the details.

Of particular note: I got almost all the lost versions off DECUS tapes
hosted in various places because they were copies of the KERMIT tape,
pruned down to just be the DEC stuff. Maybe people here care, maybe not...

Warner

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed Apr 22 17:19:21 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 23:19:21 +0100
Subject: MicroVAX 3100/95 PSU Weirdness
Message-ID: <012d01d618f4$13010890$390319b0$@ntlworld.com>

I am on a mission to fix a bunch of power supplies and now I am looking at
my MicroVAX 3100/95. A few days ago I mentioned that the big smoothing
capacitors on the primary side might need replacing. I have done that now.

 

However, in doing so, I have discovered that *one* of the capacitors does
not get discharged after the power has gone off (this applies both to the
original ones and the brand-new replacements). Furthermore, after
discharging them with a resistor and checking that the charge had gone,
several hours later, the one that does not discharge, has some charge again,
that was not there before!

 

Does anyone know if these PSUs have a bleed resistor to discharge the
smoothing capacitors? Why would only one be discharged, is there normally
one bleed resistor per capacitor? Why would the capacitor acquire charge
again when it hasn't been powered on?

 

Thanks

 

Rob


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Wed Apr 22 17:30:48 2020
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 18:30:48 -0400
Subject: MicroVAX 3100/95 PSU Weirdness
In-Reply-To: <012d01d618f4$13010890$390319b0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <012d01d618f4$13010890$390319b0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <85f00db0-1308-3062-0356-bbf8803d4af6@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2020-04-22 6:19 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> I am on a mission to fix a bunch of power supplies and now I am looking at
> my MicroVAX 3100/95. A few days ago I mentioned that the big smoothing
> capacitors on the primary side might need replacing. I have done that now.
> 
>  
> 
> However, in doing so, I have discovered that *one* of the capacitors does
> not get discharged after the power has gone off (this applies both to the
> original ones and the brand-new replacements). Furthermore, after
> discharging them with a resistor and checking that the charge had gone,
> several hours later, the one that does not discharge, has some charge again,
> that was not there before!
> 
>  
> 
> Does anyone know if these PSUs have a bleed resistor to discharge the
> smoothing capacitors? 

You should be able to see by inspection of the PCB.

Why would only one be discharged, is there normally
> one bleed resistor per capacitor? Why would the capacitor acquire charge
> again when it hasn't been powered on?

This unexpected effect is due to dielectric absorption.
https://www.robotroom.com/Capacitor-Self-Discharge-5.html

http://slot-tech.com/interesting_stuff/sencore/LC103/TT105%20-%203759.pdf

--Toby

> 
>  
> 
> Thanks
> 
>  
> 
> Rob
> 


From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 17:35:32 2020
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:35:32 -0600
Subject: [ancient thread] HP 1820-1584 IC replacement?
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTe+TsVp8wz1Cqea5pDbgN=5ovpG1_Y1A8070xRT4n8uQ@mail.gmail.com>

Back in 2013, Bob Rosenbloom asked:
> I have an HP 9872 plotter that just died. According to the internal self
> test (very nice!)
> one of the bib (MOS to TTL) drivers has failed.

Tony Duell wrote:
> the devie is very simple (it's simialr to the 74LS245) but the problem is
that one side of it does not work with TTL levels. It's a level shifter too.

Although the BIB functioned as a level shifter, in later devices using the
1818-2500 standalone 40-pin BPC Binary Processor Chip, including the 9872C
and 9872T, HP actually used the 74LS245 instead of the BIB. The only thing
they did to meet the MOS level input requirements of the BPC was to put a
10Kohm pullup resistor to +5V on each data line on the MOS side of the
buffer.

As noted elsewhere, the 74LS245 isn't pin compatible with the BIB, so an
adapter would be needed to substitute it.

The 9872A, which uses the BPC with the BIB chip, does not have pullups on
the MOS side. It also uses the HP 16-bit NMOS ROM directly on the MOS side,
and it's remotely possible that adding 10K pullups could be a problem with
the ROM.

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Apr 22 17:40:27 2020
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 17:40:27 -0500
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <5EA0C7DB.4090203@pico-systems.com>

On 04/22/2020 02:27 PM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote:
> Hi all,
> was just fishing in old memories & graphics systems. We had in the
> 1980's a big fridge from Grinnell Systems as a frame buffer on a 11/34.
>
> Anybody remember those? Links to any documentation?
Yes, the Earth and Planetary Science group at our University 
had a Grinnell frame buffer on an 11, not sure
exact model, but could have been an 11/34.  They used it 
with Mini-VICAR software from NASA.
RSX-11M OS, I think.  That was the only Grinnell I ever saw.

Jon



From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Wed Apr 22 19:09:37 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 20:09:37 -0400
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
In-Reply-To: <20200422155901.9249618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20200422155901.9249618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <0c69e50c-c64c-b6b6-312c-26a2183c0730@alembic.crystel.com>

> So whatever the fault is (perhaps the QBUS block transfer issue reported
> up-thread), it must _seem_ to work, but fail in actuality. It would be
> interesting to appply a logic analyzer, and see what the bus transaction
> looks like, if it looks OK on the bus (in which case it's an internal
> failure).

One possibility is that it's not handling multiple DMA devices talking 
at the same time or calling to arbitrate the bus. Right now I have an 
RL02 controller and the MTI controller but the RL02's are powered down. 
I'll see if I can run it for a bit on RSX11M and get it to fault (and 
backup my disk first as it's nice to have it working again).

C

From lars at nocrew.org  Wed Apr 22 22:51:10 2020
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 03:51:10 +0000
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com> (emanuel
 stiebler via cctalk's message of "Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:27:13 -0400")
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <7wk126uafl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Emanuel Stiebler wrote:
> was just fishing in old memories & graphics systems. We had in the
> 1980's a big fridge from Grinnell Systems as a frame buffer on a 11/34.
> Anybody remember those? Links to any documentation?

MIT Plama Fusion had one, made by John Kulp.  It was connected to MIT-MC
and was kind of a remake of Tom Knight's TV system for MIT-AI.  (Kulp
also made the "space-cadet" keyboard primarily for this system, but it
was also more famously used with the CADR Lisp machines and the
Symbolics and LMI machines.)

The "Plasma TV", as it was called, was first connected through a serial
line from Tech Square to Building 38.  It was later updated to Chaosnet.

Grinnell was a spinoff from Ramtek.

From lars at nocrew.org  Wed Apr 22 22:51:10 2020
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 03:51:10 +0000
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com> (emanuel
 stiebler via cctalk's message of "Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:27:13 -0400")
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <7wk126uafl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Emanuel Stiebler wrote:
> was just fishing in old memories & graphics systems. We had in the
> 1980's a big fridge from Grinnell Systems as a frame buffer on a 11/34.
> Anybody remember those? Links to any documentation?

MIT Plama Fusion had one, made by John Kulp.  It was connected to MIT-MC
and was kind of a remake of Tom Knight's TV system for MIT-AI.  (Kulp
also made the "space-cadet" keyboard primarily for this system, but it
was also more famously used with the CADR Lisp machines and the
Symbolics and LMI machines.)

The "Plasma TV", as it was called, was first connected through a serial
line from Tech Square to Building 38.  It was later updated to Chaosnet.

Grinnell was a spinoff from Ramtek.

From peter at vanpeborgh.eu  Wed Apr 22 16:47:06 2020
From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:47:06 +0100
Subject: Looking for new punched card type
Message-ID: <018401d618ef$914e0c70$b3ea2550$@vanpeborgh.eu>

Following on from my previous post re punched cards, thank you for replying.
I am following up where I can.

Now, however, I realize that the IBM Port-A-Punch requires a special type of
cards. Does anyone have 1 to 3 of these they can spare. (I already have the
instrument.)

Many thanks,

peter

|| |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |
Peter Van Peborgh
62 St Mary's Rise
Writhlington  Radstock
Somerset	BA3 3PD
UK
01761 439 234

"Our times are in God's wise and loving hands"

|| |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |



From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 22 17:54:27 2020
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:54:27 +0000
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR06MB4359BF2AF53BE9CAD0AB9456BAD20@BYAPR06MB4359.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Hi Emanuel,

I remember them well, I was their manufacturer's rep in Houston, and sold several to petrochem, NASA and universities.

It was a big ticket item, selling for upwards of 40K when loaded up with all the options.

NASA was using it for animation, the petrochem guys for geology visualizations in oil exportation.  A&M bought one for LANDSAT imagery.

I see if I can find some old ads, they were in the IEEE computer graphics mags quite a bit.

Randy

________________________________
From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of emanuel stiebler via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 12:27 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Grinnell Systems

Hi all,
was just fishing in old memories & graphics systems. We had in the
1980's a big fridge from Grinnell Systems as a frame buffer on a 11/34.

Anybody remember those? Links to any documentation?

Cheers!

From kgriffit at mindspring.com  Wed Apr 22 19:35:47 2020
From: kgriffit at mindspring.com ("Grif" w. keith griffith)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 17:35:47 -0700
Subject: Kennedy 9800 - Power-up tips?
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAguHGE+nVK0+jGCXQL5cT5yUEofZCnBOnCY8LJCsACwHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAguHGE+nVK0+jGCXQL5cT5yUEofZCnBOnCY8LJCsACwHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <06406ade-e06c-51fd-acb6-0ced3adac466@mindspring.com>


At least in radio repair of old equipment,,,, old electrolytic caps 
cause all sorts of issues. Most of the guys doing restoration do a total 
remove/replace on them.? In my opinion,,, I think that's a little 
extreme,,, but then having one fail after all the other work is done is 
also a PITA.


On 4/20/20 11:15 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> Hi friends,
>
> Now that I have enough hobby time having quit my job two weeks before the
> apocalypse, I'm interested in poking at my Kennedy 9800 tape controller
> project.
>
> I bought the tape unit in Q3 2017 and the seller said they had powered it
> up and nothing seemed awry. I have not powered it up and reading about old
> electrolytic cap issues I'm curious if I should do anything beyond replace
> any obviously leaking/ruptured capacitors.
>
> IIRC people have used a variac to gradually bring the power supply up to
> operating voltage and somewhat refresh the capacitors - is this a thing? Is
> this advisable?
>
> Any help is appreciated!
> --
> Anders Nelson
>
> www.erogear.com



From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 02:45:21 2020
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:45:21 +0100
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCwHMT-q0W=QQJqbxFsy99gJme7G2XbYvtC4_FRx4WA_Qg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 10:31 PM emanuel stiebler via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> was just fishing in old memories & graphics systems. We had in the
> 1980's a big fridge from Grinnell Systems as a frame buffer on a 11/34.
>
> Anybody remember those? Links to any documentation?

Remember them? I have one. A rackmount box (quite tall, possible 12U
or more) with 2 PSUs at the bottom and mostly wire-wrapped boards in
the top part. Links to a DR11-B.

Alas I don't have any documentation for it.

-tony

From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 02:45:21 2020
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:45:21 +0100
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCwHMT-q0W=QQJqbxFsy99gJme7G2XbYvtC4_FRx4WA_Qg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 10:31 PM emanuel stiebler via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> was just fishing in old memories & graphics systems. We had in the
> 1980's a big fridge from Grinnell Systems as a frame buffer on a 11/34.
>
> Anybody remember those? Links to any documentation?

Remember them? I have one. A rackmount box (quite tall, possible 12U
or more) with 2 PSUs at the bottom and mostly wire-wrapped boards in
the top part. Links to a DR11-B.

Alas I don't have any documentation for it.

-tony

From lars at nocrew.org  Thu Apr 23 04:20:22 2020
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:20:22 +0000
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <7wk126uafl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> (Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk's
 message of "Thu, 23 Apr 2020 03:51:10 +0000")
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
 <7wk126uafl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <7w7dy6tv6x.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

This has some interesting information.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a086098.pdf

From lars at nocrew.org  Thu Apr 23 04:20:22 2020
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:20:22 +0000
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <7wk126uafl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> (Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk's
 message of "Thu, 23 Apr 2020 03:51:10 +0000")
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
 <7wk126uafl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <7w7dy6tv6x.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

This has some interesting information.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a086098.pdf

From emu at e-bbes.com  Thu Apr 23 07:53:32 2020
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:53:32 -0400
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <7w7dy6tv6x.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
 <7wk126uafl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w7dy6tv6x.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <f64c8af7-e117-8cb5-0773-c23dc9911b40@e-bbes.com>

On 2020-04-23 05:20, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote:
> This has some interesting information.
> 
> https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a086098.pdf
> 
GREAT FIND! I think it is the fridge I was talking/thinking about.
Ours was on a 11/34 running RSX ...

THANKS!!!

From emu at e-bbes.com  Thu Apr 23 07:53:32 2020
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:53:32 -0400
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <7w7dy6tv6x.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
 <7wk126uafl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w7dy6tv6x.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <f64c8af7-e117-8cb5-0773-c23dc9911b40@e-bbes.com>

On 2020-04-23 05:20, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote:
> This has some interesting information.
> 
> https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a086098.pdf
> 
GREAT FIND! I think it is the fridge I was talking/thinking about.
Ours was on a 11/34 running RSX ...

THANKS!!!

From emu at e-bbes.com  Thu Apr 23 07:57:28 2020
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:57:28 -0400
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <CAHkUCCwHMT-q0W=QQJqbxFsy99gJme7G2XbYvtC4_FRx4WA_Qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
 <CAHkUCCwHMT-q0W=QQJqbxFsy99gJme7G2XbYvtC4_FRx4WA_Qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6f079891-7535-e8d1-97dc-399361359b6a@e-bbes.com>

On 2020-04-23 03:45, Tony Duell wrote:

> Remember them? I have one. A rackmount box (quite tall, possible 12U
> or more) with 2 PSUs at the bottom and mostly wire-wrapped boards in
> the top part. Links to a DR11-B.
>
> Alas I don't have any documentation for it.

Which one exactly do you have? Attached to which CPU?
Would you mind talking some pictures?

Suddenly, I'm looking for Old Frame Buffers (actually, they also had
some intelligence in them too ..)



From emu at e-bbes.com  Thu Apr 23 07:57:28 2020
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:57:28 -0400
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <CAHkUCCwHMT-q0W=QQJqbxFsy99gJme7G2XbYvtC4_FRx4WA_Qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
 <CAHkUCCwHMT-q0W=QQJqbxFsy99gJme7G2XbYvtC4_FRx4WA_Qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6f079891-7535-e8d1-97dc-399361359b6a@e-bbes.com>

On 2020-04-23 03:45, Tony Duell wrote:

> Remember them? I have one. A rackmount box (quite tall, possible 12U
> or more) with 2 PSUs at the bottom and mostly wire-wrapped boards in
> the top part. Links to a DR11-B.
>
> Alas I don't have any documentation for it.

Which one exactly do you have? Attached to which CPU?
Would you mind talking some pictures?

Suddenly, I'm looking for Old Frame Buffers (actually, they also had
some intelligence in them too ..)



From mark at matlockfamily.com  Thu Apr 23 00:17:56 2020
From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 00:17:56 -0500
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
Message-ID: <7BF69C20-5B13-4DEE-BB64-94D09DACCCBE@MatlockFamily.com>

> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:17:07 -0400
> From: Chris Zach <cz at alembic.crystel.com>
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
> Message-ID: <27647f0e-19d4-b484-d288-e9f3bb715363 at alembic.crystel.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> Thanks Mark! Actually this was just the boards from the 11/84 (no idea 
> what happened to the chassis, drat) so it's an 11/84 CPU (18mhz, FPP 
> chip installed), 2 PMI boards (one old 2mb, one new 1mb) a console board 
> of some sort and the Unibus map.
> 
> I popped this into my BA23 to speed things up a bit in place of my quad 
> height 11/73 CPU with 2mb memory. So far it seems to work, and with the 
> CA memory in the PMI slot managed to boot RSX11M 4.2 and compile up EMPIRE.

Chris,
   I understand now. I also have a PDP-11/83 in a BA123 box and the CPU and 
PMI memory (M8637-E) can move from the Qbus box to the 11/84 box and work fine
In either. I spent a good bit of time tinkering with the 11/84 power supply which did not
Work until I put a M7556 minimum load module in it. Basically the +/- 12 Volts needs a
Load or you get a hung bus error. Also, with the Unibus you have to pay attention to
The NPR/NPG grant jumpers. 

   For disks on the QBus systems I used the UC07 and SCSI2SD. The UC07 can be
 can be configured for block mode transfers and I think it is doing it. I guess I?d need
 to hook up a logic analyzer to know for sure.

    The 11/84 uses a UniBone and when it is emulating a MSCP disk, it can do 150 
I/Os a second (using IOX on RSX11M+) The 11/83 using the UC07 and a SCSI2SD
Does about 60 I/Os per second. I think the UC07 could go faster but is limited by the
SDcard interface. I need to put a fast real SCSI disk on it sometime and see what it can do.

> 
> My guess is the 11/84's Unibus talks directly to the PMI bus and 
> orchestrates the data transfers, but there is something wrong when the 
> PMI memory is accessed on the true Q bus. That would not happen on an 
> 11/84 (CPU and Map use PMI only) but when you have a Q bus DMA device it 
> probably manifests at random. It's possible the MTI card is throttling 
> the DMA to single mode instead of hog mode, wonder if I want to screw up 
> my disk to verify this?.

What is the model # for your MTI disk controller?

> 
> Drat. On the positive side it's chock full of 256k chips, which I could 
> pull off and put on the EA board to bring it up to 2mb memory. I have 
> air heat tools and a pre-heater so getting the chips off should be 
> pretty basic. Getting them on the new board though could be a pain since 
> all the holes are soldered over?.


   Moving the RAM chips sounds a bit tedious but would certainly be possible. 

> 
> No way to reprogram or fix it I assume?

    Are you asking about making the M8637-B or -C into the -D or -E? If so I?ve
 never seen any reference to doing that. I was very fortunate that the person
 Who sold me the M8637-C was willing to trade it for a -E.

 Mark

From lars at nocrew.org  Thu Apr 23 10:28:37 2020
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:28:37 +0000
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <f64c8af7-e117-8cb5-0773-c23dc9911b40@e-bbes.com> (emanuel
 stiebler's message of "Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:53:32 -0400")
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
 <7wk126uafl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w7dy6tv6x.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <f64c8af7-e117-8cb5-0773-c23dc9911b40@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <7w1roete56.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Emanuel Stiebler 
>> https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a086098.pdf
> GREAT FIND! I think it is the fridge I was talking/thinking about.

I think it's an early generation from Grinnell.  Note the year ~1977.
The MIT one was from 1976, but maybe the same model GMR-27(0?).
The DTIC document describes an interface based on DR-11, same as MIT.
And the commands seem to match.

I have made emulators for more obscure hardware than this.

From lars at nocrew.org  Thu Apr 23 10:28:37 2020
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:28:37 +0000
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <f64c8af7-e117-8cb5-0773-c23dc9911b40@e-bbes.com> (emanuel
 stiebler's message of "Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:53:32 -0400")
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
 <7wk126uafl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w7dy6tv6x.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <f64c8af7-e117-8cb5-0773-c23dc9911b40@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <7w1roete56.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Emanuel Stiebler 
>> https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a086098.pdf
> GREAT FIND! I think it is the fridge I was talking/thinking about.

I think it's an early generation from Grinnell.  Note the year ~1977.
The MIT one was from 1976, but maybe the same model GMR-27(0?).
The DTIC document describes an interface based on DR-11, same as MIT.
And the commands seem to match.

I have made emulators for more obscure hardware than this.

From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 10:39:28 2020
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:39:28 +0100
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <6f079891-7535-e8d1-97dc-399361359b6a@e-bbes.com>
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
 <CAHkUCCwHMT-q0W=QQJqbxFsy99gJme7G2XbYvtC4_FRx4WA_Qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6f079891-7535-e8d1-97dc-399361359b6a@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCynSPX+EDaGHmVtQnXEdfm3KVntjv3sb8rt6qLYMgsHQA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 1:57 PM emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote:
>
> On 2020-04-23 03:45, Tony Duell wrote:
>
> > Remember them? I have one. A rackmount box (quite tall, possible 12U
> > or more) with 2 PSUs at the bottom and mostly wire-wrapped boards in
> > the top part. Links to a DR11-B.
> >
> > Alas I don't have any documentation for it.
>
> Which one exactly do you have? Attached to which CPU?

I'll have to get round the back of it and see what's on the nameplate.
I can take some pictures but won't be able to upload them while the
current lockdown carries on.

It's currently not linked to anything. I think it was once on an
11/34, I've had it on my 11/45


> Would you mind talking some pictures?
>
> Suddenly, I'm looking for Old Frame Buffers (actually, they also had
> some intelligence in them too ..)

I also have a PPL frame buffer which uses a hard disk as the video
memory (rotates once every frame time, the video signal is recorded as
analogue FM) with a Unibus interface. And 3 I2S (International Imaging
Systems) video display/processor systems -- a Model 70/E with 6
planes, a Model 70/F4 and a Model 75. I do have a lot of
documentation, including schematics, for those.

-tony

From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 10:39:28 2020
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:39:28 +0100
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <6f079891-7535-e8d1-97dc-399361359b6a@e-bbes.com>
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
 <CAHkUCCwHMT-q0W=QQJqbxFsy99gJme7G2XbYvtC4_FRx4WA_Qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6f079891-7535-e8d1-97dc-399361359b6a@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCynSPX+EDaGHmVtQnXEdfm3KVntjv3sb8rt6qLYMgsHQA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 1:57 PM emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote:
>
> On 2020-04-23 03:45, Tony Duell wrote:
>
> > Remember them? I have one. A rackmount box (quite tall, possible 12U
> > or more) with 2 PSUs at the bottom and mostly wire-wrapped boards in
> > the top part. Links to a DR11-B.
> >
> > Alas I don't have any documentation for it.
>
> Which one exactly do you have? Attached to which CPU?

I'll have to get round the back of it and see what's on the nameplate.
I can take some pictures but won't be able to upload them while the
current lockdown carries on.

It's currently not linked to anything. I think it was once on an
11/34, I've had it on my 11/45


> Would you mind talking some pictures?
>
> Suddenly, I'm looking for Old Frame Buffers (actually, they also had
> some intelligence in them too ..)

I also have a PPL frame buffer which uses a hard disk as the video
memory (rotates once every frame time, the video signal is recorded as
analogue FM) with a Unibus interface. And 3 I2S (International Imaging
Systems) video display/processor systems -- a Model 70/E with 6
planes, a Model 70/F4 and a Model 75. I do have a lot of
documentation, including schematics, for those.

-tony

From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 10:58:53 2020
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 11:58:53 -0400
Subject: Kennedy 9800 - Power-up tips?
In-Reply-To: <06406ade-e06c-51fd-acb6-0ced3adac466@mindspring.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAguHGE+nVK0+jGCXQL5cT5yUEofZCnBOnCY8LJCsACwHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <06406ade-e06c-51fd-acb6-0ced3adac466@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAiO-7MM9Lw8Qvf5vYUDFj-uhQTxY=kb8jiwOYUCoqxNCw@mail.gmail.com>

Cool, thanks for your take. I found some articles:

   -
   http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/steps_to_first_power_on.html
   - http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Restore_cap.html

Given this unit doesn't have any tubes, I imagine the motor drivers/amps in
this thing would simply go to zero output with shorted caps. The PSU might
blow the fuse and/or rectifier with a shorted bulk output cap. This unit is
very difficult to remove from the rack it's in so I'm trying to avoid
preemptive repairs.

I'm going to pick up a variac on Amazon when I finish up some other things:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076Y2XHRS/ref=twister_B07G5BHXYV

Happy to hear any constructive criticism.

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com


On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 12:37 AM "Grif" w. keith griffith via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> At least in radio repair of old equipment,,,, old electrolytic caps
> cause all sorts of issues. Most of the guys doing restoration do a total
> remove/replace on them.  In my opinion,,, I think that's a little
> extreme,,, but then having one fail after all the other work is done is
> also a PITA.
>
>
> On 4/20/20 11:15 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> > Hi friends,
> >
> > Now that I have enough hobby time having quit my job two weeks before the
> > apocalypse, I'm interested in poking at my Kennedy 9800 tape controller
> > project.
> >
> > I bought the tape unit in Q3 2017 and the seller said they had powered it
> > up and nothing seemed awry. I have not powered it up and reading about
> old
> > electrolytic cap issues I'm curious if I should do anything beyond
> replace
> > any obviously leaking/ruptured capacitors.
> >
> > IIRC people have used a variac to gradually bring the power supply up to
> > operating voltage and somewhat refresh the capacitors - is this a thing?
> Is
> > this advisable?
> >
> > Any help is appreciated!
> > --
> > Anders Nelson
> >
> > www.erogear.com
>
>
>

From robert626001 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 12:53:14 2020
From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 12:53:14 -0500
Subject: Kennedy 9800 - Power-up tips?
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAiO-7MM9Lw8Qvf5vYUDFj-uhQTxY=kb8jiwOYUCoqxNCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAguHGE+nVK0+jGCXQL5cT5yUEofZCnBOnCY8LJCsACwHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <06406ade-e06c-51fd-acb6-0ced3adac466@mindspring.com>
 <CAJ2mpAiO-7MM9Lw8Qvf5vYUDFj-uhQTxY=kb8jiwOYUCoqxNCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHDf=2WVNc_bA=bZE4NFi+2NOBFJ0qOf1pDYVd8BeG5bXwWgKA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm under caffeinated and not really with it yet, having recently gone semi
nocturnal, so you'll want to double check this with someone who's actually
awake.

That said, variacs aren't a universal panacea and can sometimes be harmful
rather than helpful.  My disorganized memory is offering TVs as an example,
but take that with a pinch of salt. I've only ever used them with tube
radios and amps, so have nothing further to offer,  save this caution.

-- 
Robert


On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 10:59 AM Anders Nelson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Cool, thanks for your take. I found some articles:
>
>    -
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/steps_to_first_power_on.html
>    - http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Restore_cap.html
>
> Given this unit doesn't have any tubes, I imagine the motor drivers/amps in
> this thing would simply go to zero output with shorted caps. The PSU might
> blow the fuse and/or rectifier with a shorted bulk output cap. This unit is
> very difficult to remove from the rack it's in so I'm trying to avoid
> preemptive repairs.
>
> I'm going to pick up a variac on Amazon when I finish up some other things:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076Y2XHRS/ref=twister_B07G5BHXYV
>
> Happy to hear any constructive criticism.
>
> --
> Anders Nelson
>
> +1 (517) 775-6129
>
> www.erogear.com
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 12:37 AM "Grif" w. keith griffith via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > At least in radio repair of old equipment,,,, old electrolytic caps
> > cause all sorts of issues. Most of the guys doing restoration do a total
> > remove/replace on them.  In my opinion,,, I think that's a little
> > extreme,,, but then having one fail after all the other work is done is
> > also a PITA.
> >
> >
> > On 4/20/20 11:15 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> > > Hi friends,
> > >
> > > Now that I have enough hobby time having quit my job two weeks before
> the
> > > apocalypse, I'm interested in poking at my Kennedy 9800 tape controller
> > > project.
> > >
> > > I bought the tape unit in Q3 2017 and the seller said they had powered
> it
> > > up and nothing seemed awry. I have not powered it up and reading about
> > old
> > > electrolytic cap issues I'm curious if I should do anything beyond
> > replace
> > > any obviously leaking/ruptured capacitors.
> > >
> > > IIRC people have used a variac to gradually bring the power supply up
> to
> > > operating voltage and somewhat refresh the capacitors - is this a
> thing?
> > Is
> > > this advisable?
> > >
> > > Any help is appreciated!
> > > --
> > > Anders Nelson
> > >
> > > www.erogear.com
> >
> >
> >
>

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Apr 23 13:09:53 2020
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:09:53 -0500
Subject: Kennedy 9800 - Power-up tips?
In-Reply-To: <CAHDf=2WVNc_bA=bZE4NFi+2NOBFJ0qOf1pDYVd8BeG5bXwWgKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAguHGE+nVK0+jGCXQL5cT5yUEofZCnBOnCY8LJCsACwHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <06406ade-e06c-51fd-acb6-0ced3adac466@mindspring.com>
 <CAJ2mpAiO-7MM9Lw8Qvf5vYUDFj-uhQTxY=kb8jiwOYUCoqxNCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHDf=2WVNc_bA=bZE4NFi+2NOBFJ0qOf1pDYVd8BeG5bXwWgKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5EA1D9F1.1070502@pico-systems.com>

On 04/23/2020 12:53 PM, Robert via cctalk wrote:
> I'm under caffeinated and not really with it yet, having recently gone semi
> nocturnal, so you'll want to double check this with someone who's actually
> awake.
>
> That said, variacs aren't a universal panacea and can sometimes be harmful
> rather than helpful.  My disorganized memory is offering TVs as an example,
> but take that with a pinch of salt. I've only ever used them with tube
> radios and amps, so have nothing further to offer,  save this caution.
>
Well, if the power supply is all linear, a Variac is 
probably fine to slowly ramp up the capacitors and
let the dielectric reform.

If it has switching power supplies, this can cause the 
supply to try to operate at severe undervoltage, and cause 
damage.  On the other hand, powering it up to 10 V or so on 
the AC input for a few minutes
is unlikely to allow the switching stage to start up, but 
will reform the main input storage caps.
It won't reform the low voltage caps in the rest of the 
unit, though.  You could apply low voltage
(1-2 V for a minute or two) to each low voltage rail before 
fully powering on.  Especially if it
has bunches of tantalum caps in the logic, that could 
prevent disaster.

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Apr 23 13:20:07 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 11:20:07 -0700
Subject: Kennedy 9800 - Power-up tips?
In-Reply-To: <CAHDf=2WVNc_bA=bZE4NFi+2NOBFJ0qOf1pDYVd8BeG5bXwWgKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAguHGE+nVK0+jGCXQL5cT5yUEofZCnBOnCY8LJCsACwHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <06406ade-e06c-51fd-acb6-0ced3adac466@mindspring.com>
 <CAJ2mpAiO-7MM9Lw8Qvf5vYUDFj-uhQTxY=kb8jiwOYUCoqxNCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHDf=2WVNc_bA=bZE4NFi+2NOBFJ0qOf1pDYVd8BeG5bXwWgKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5457f431-f3ff-4a7e-e67c-903d7840740d@sydex.com>

On 4/23/20 10:53 AM, Robert via cctalk wrote:
> I'm under caffeinated and not really with it yet, having recently gone semi
> nocturnal, so you'll want to double check this with someone who's actually
> awake.
> 
> That said, variacs aren't a universal panacea and can sometimes be harmful
> rather than helpful.  My disorganized memory is offering TVs as an example,
> but take that with a pinch of salt. I've only ever used them with tube
> radios and amps, so have nothing further to offer,  save this caution.

My own experience is that they're pretty much useless when a siwtch-mode
power supply is involved.

If you're dealing with a linear power supply, a good first move, in my
experience, is to hook a high-wattage (say, 100W) in series with the AC
line for first power-up.

--Chuck

From pat at vax11.net  Thu Apr 23 13:21:21 2020
From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 14:21:21 -0400
Subject: Kennedy 9800 - Power-up tips?
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAiO-7MM9Lw8Qvf5vYUDFj-uhQTxY=kb8jiwOYUCoqxNCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAguHGE+nVK0+jGCXQL5cT5yUEofZCnBOnCY8LJCsACwHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <06406ade-e06c-51fd-acb6-0ced3adac466@mindspring.com>
 <CAJ2mpAiO-7MM9Lw8Qvf5vYUDFj-uhQTxY=kb8jiwOYUCoqxNCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAADZ-4N3+O-O-bue6PSLBPCMNMBHfSeDd0-jQR0pKj+SS1ydxQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 11:59 AM Anders Nelson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Cool, thanks for your take. I found some articles:
>
>    -
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/steps_to_first_power_on.html
>    - http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Restore_cap.html
>
> Given this unit doesn't have any tubes, I imagine the motor drivers/amps in
> this thing would simply go to zero output with shorted caps. The PSU might
> blow the fuse and/or rectifier with a shorted bulk output cap. This unit is
> very difficult to remove from the rack it's in so I'm trying to avoid
> preemptive repairs.
>

I'd personally say that since it hasn't been off for that long (less than 3
years) and since it sounds like you're not interested in taking it apart,
I'd just plug it back in, and see how that goes.

As a minimal step, I might disconnect the PSU from the rest of the drive,
and plug it in like that for a moment, but it's probably best to not run it
without a load for very long.

Pat

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Apr 23 14:12:29 2020
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 12:12:29 -0700
Subject: Kennedy 9800 - Power-up tips?
In-Reply-To: <CAADZ-4N3+O-O-bue6PSLBPCMNMBHfSeDd0-jQR0pKj+SS1ydxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAguHGE+nVK0+jGCXQL5cT5yUEofZCnBOnCY8LJCsACwHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <06406ade-e06c-51fd-acb6-0ced3adac466@mindspring.com>
 <CAJ2mpAiO-7MM9Lw8Qvf5vYUDFj-uhQTxY=kb8jiwOYUCoqxNCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4N3+O-O-bue6PSLBPCMNMBHfSeDd0-jQR0pKj+SS1ydxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b33a63aa-a665-f80e-5c47-99bb828bce2e@bitsavers.org>

On 4/23/20 11:21 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote:

> As a minimal step, I might disconnect the PSU from the rest of the drive,
> and plug it in like that for a moment, but it's probably best to not run it
> without a load for very long.
> 

The 9800 is the 8" little brother to the 9000 tension arm drive. The service manual
is on bitsavers, it probably has a linear power supply. There is also an inverter
supply shown but that is probably for special applications.







From emu at e-bbes.com  Thu Apr 23 14:19:52 2020
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:19:52 -0400
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <7w1roete56.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
 <7wk126uafl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w7dy6tv6x.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <f64c8af7-e117-8cb5-0773-c23dc9911b40@e-bbes.com>
 <7w1roete56.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <de6d6b68-3545-2588-25c9-e63acfc3da99@e-bbes.com>

On 2020-04-23 11:28, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> Emanuel Stiebler 
>>> https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a086098.pdf
>> GREAT FIND! I think it is the fridge I was talking/thinking about.
> 
> I think it's an early generation from Grinnell.  Note the year ~1977.
> The MIT one was from 1976, but maybe the same model GMR-27(0?).
> The DTIC document describes an interface based on DR-11, same as MIT.
> And the commands seem to match.
> 
> I have made emulators for more obscure hardware than this.

You've written an emulator for it?

From emu at e-bbes.com  Thu Apr 23 14:19:52 2020
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:19:52 -0400
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <7w1roete56.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
 <7wk126uafl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w7dy6tv6x.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <f64c8af7-e117-8cb5-0773-c23dc9911b40@e-bbes.com>
 <7w1roete56.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <de6d6b68-3545-2588-25c9-e63acfc3da99@e-bbes.com>

On 2020-04-23 11:28, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> Emanuel Stiebler 
>>> https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a086098.pdf
>> GREAT FIND! I think it is the fridge I was talking/thinking about.
> 
> I think it's an early generation from Grinnell.  Note the year ~1977.
> The MIT one was from 1976, but maybe the same model GMR-27(0?).
> The DTIC document describes an interface based on DR-11, same as MIT.
> And the commands seem to match.
> 
> I have made emulators for more obscure hardware than this.

You've written an emulator for it?

From cctalk at emailtoilet.com  Thu Apr 23 12:50:28 2020
From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com (cctalk at emailtoilet.com)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:50:28 -0700
Subject: Looking for new punched card type
Message-ID: <000f01d61997$accc8910$06659b30$@emailtoilet.com>

Peter,

 

I have several Port-A-Punch cards. Would you like 1 of each?

 

Do a search at www.ibmjunkman.com and check Holders 162, 568 and 1856.

 

Donald


From peter at vanpeborgh.eu  Thu Apr 23 13:03:08 2020
From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:03:08 +0100
Subject: Odd punched cards
Message-ID: <000e01d61999$72768930$57639b90$@vanpeborgh.eu>

Guys,

I got a positive response about the Port-A-Punch cards so no longer any need
to respond to this one. Very encouraging.

Still looking for Jacquard cards and original Hollerith cards. Hope springs
eternal.

peter

|| |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |
Peter Van Peborgh
62 St Mary's Rise
Writhlington  Radstock
Somerset	BA3 3PD
UK
01761 439 234

"Our times are in God's wise and loving hands"

|| |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |



From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 13:17:25 2020
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 14:17:25 -0400
Subject: Odd punched cards
References: <000e01d61999$72768930$57639b90$@vanpeborgh.eu>
Message-ID: <77DF09F3EC4C464F9319CCF7E37142C9@310e2>

How about 96 column and EPC (Edge Punched) Cards?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Van Peborgh via cctech" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
To: <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 2:03 PM
Subject: Odd punched cards


> Guys,
> 
> I got a positive response about the Port-A-Punch cards so no longer any need
> to respond to this one. Very encouraging.
> 
> Still looking for Jacquard cards and original Hollerith cards. Hope springs
> eternal.
> 
> peter
> 
> || |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |
> Peter Van Peborgh
> 62 St Mary's Rise
> Writhlington  Radstock
> Somerset BA3 3PD
> UK
> 01761 439 234
> 
> "Our times are in God's wise and loving hands"
> 
> || |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |
> 
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Apr 23 14:19:34 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 12:19:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Odd punched cards
In-Reply-To: <77DF09F3EC4C464F9319CCF7E37142C9@310e2>
References: <000e01d61999$72768930$57639b90$@vanpeborgh.eu>
 <77DF09F3EC4C464F9319CCF7E37142C9@310e2>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004231134460.26605@shell.lmi.net>

Aperture cards (piece of 35mm micro-film mounted in card)
(As opposed to Emmanuel Goldberg's "Rapid Selector", or Vannevar Bush's 
"Memex")

Round hole Univac/Remington-Rand 90 column
There was folklore that IBM had PATENTED their rectangular hole shape, and 
the use of a wire brush and brass roller reader

Optical mark cards

IBM System/3 96 columns undersized cards

"Marginal" knitting needle cards(Royal McBee, EZ sort, Zato-code, 
keysort,...); some even used two depths of notch


It was right about the time of LBJ's re-election that IBM started to round 
the corners on cards


On Thu, 23 Apr 2020, Mike Stein via cctech wrote:

> How about 96 column and EPC (Edge Punched) Cards?

From mark.tapley at swri.org  Thu Apr 23 08:46:26 2020
From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:46:26 +0000
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR06MB4359BF2AF53BE9CAD0AB9456BAD20@BYAPR06MB4359.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
 <BYAPR06MB4359BF2AF53BE9CAD0AB9456BAD20@BYAPR06MB4359.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <08329C7B-0C9B-48EB-BCD9-6A59CAB20162@swri.edu>

I?m fairly sure there was one at University of Texas Center for Space Research, circa 1980 (+/- a year or 4). It would have been in a separate room from the PDP-11 I normally used. I got to ?fly? a space-suit with a manned maneuvering unit around a wire-frame space shuttle representation on it for about 3 minutes. I turned upside down, and everyone thought I was out of control, but I sailed right in through the cargo bay air-lock door as planned. The author of the sim shrugged, and commented, ?I guess in space, nobody knows if you are upside down."

> On Apr 22, 2020, at 5:54 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
> 
> Hi Emanuel,
> 
> I remember them well, I was their manufacturer's rep in Houston, and sold several to petrochem, NASA and universities.
> 
> It was a big ticket item, selling for upwards of 40K when loaded up with all the options.
> 
> NASA was using it for animation, the petrochem guys for geology visualizations in oil exportation.  A&M bought one for LANDSAT imagery.
> 
> I see if I can find some old ads, they were in the IEEE computer graphics mags quite a bit.
> 
> Randy
> 
> ________________________________
> From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of emanuel stiebler via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 12:27 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Grinnell Systems
> 
> Hi all,
> was just fishing in old memories & graphics systems. We had in the
> 1980's a big fridge from Grinnell Systems as a frame buffer on a 11/34.
> 
> Anybody remember those? Links to any documentation?
> 
> Cheers!


From mark.tapley at swri.org  Thu Apr 23 08:46:26 2020
From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:46:26 +0000
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR06MB4359BF2AF53BE9CAD0AB9456BAD20@BYAPR06MB4359.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
 <BYAPR06MB4359BF2AF53BE9CAD0AB9456BAD20@BYAPR06MB4359.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <08329C7B-0C9B-48EB-BCD9-6A59CAB20162@swri.edu>

I?m fairly sure there was one at University of Texas Center for Space Research, circa 1980 (+/- a year or 4). It would have been in a separate room from the PDP-11 I normally used. I got to ?fly? a space-suit with a manned maneuvering unit around a wire-frame space shuttle representation on it for about 3 minutes. I turned upside down, and everyone thought I was out of control, but I sailed right in through the cargo bay air-lock door as planned. The author of the sim shrugged, and commented, ?I guess in space, nobody knows if you are upside down."

> On Apr 22, 2020, at 5:54 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
> 
> Hi Emanuel,
> 
> I remember them well, I was their manufacturer's rep in Houston, and sold several to petrochem, NASA and universities.
> 
> It was a big ticket item, selling for upwards of 40K when loaded up with all the options.
> 
> NASA was using it for animation, the petrochem guys for geology visualizations in oil exportation.  A&M bought one for LANDSAT imagery.
> 
> I see if I can find some old ads, they were in the IEEE computer graphics mags quite a bit.
> 
> Randy
> 
> ________________________________
> From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of emanuel stiebler via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 12:27 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Grinnell Systems
> 
> Hi all,
> was just fishing in old memories & graphics systems. We had in the
> 1980's a big fridge from Grinnell Systems as a frame buffer on a 11/34.
> 
> Anybody remember those? Links to any documentation?
> 
> Cheers!


From lars at nocrew.org  Thu Apr 23 14:50:34 2020
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:50:34 +0000
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <de6d6b68-3545-2588-25c9-e63acfc3da99@e-bbes.com> (emanuel
 stiebler's message of "Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:19:52 -0400")
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
 <7wk126uafl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w7dy6tv6x.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <f64c8af7-e117-8cb5-0773-c23dc9911b40@e-bbes.com>
 <7w1roete56.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <de6d6b68-3545-2588-25c9-e63acfc3da99@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <7wlfmmrng5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> writes:
>> I have made emulators for more obscure hardware than this.
> You've written an emulator for it?

No... not yet.  But now it's on my to-do list.

Here are some notes I made about the MIT system:
https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/1837

From lars at nocrew.org  Thu Apr 23 14:50:34 2020
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:50:34 +0000
Subject: Grinnell Systems
In-Reply-To: <de6d6b68-3545-2588-25c9-e63acfc3da99@e-bbes.com> (emanuel
 stiebler's message of "Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:19:52 -0400")
References: <a001d792-1bd4-eae6-4581-7941cbc7b98c@e-bbes.com>
 <7wk126uafl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w7dy6tv6x.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <f64c8af7-e117-8cb5-0773-c23dc9911b40@e-bbes.com>
 <7w1roete56.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <de6d6b68-3545-2588-25c9-e63acfc3da99@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <7wlfmmrng5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> writes:
>> I have made emulators for more obscure hardware than this.
> You've written an emulator for it?

No... not yet.  But now it's on my to-do list.

Here are some notes I made about the MIT system:
https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/1837

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Apr 23 14:56:01 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 12:56:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Odd punched cards
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004231134460.26605@shell.lmi.net>
References: <000e01d61999$72768930$57639b90$@vanpeborgh.eu>
 <77DF09F3EC4C464F9319CCF7E37142C9@310e2>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004231134460.26605@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004231232480.26605@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 23 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> Aperture cards (piece of 35mm micro-film mounted in card)
> (As opposed to Emmanuel Goldberg's "Rapid Selector", or Vannevar Bush's 
> "Memex")

Goldberg's "Statistical machine" (Zeiss Ikon in Dresden, USA patent in 
1931) was the use of light and photocells to identify frames of microfilm.
Google Michael Buckland for lots more!
http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~buckland/goldbush.html
Maurer soundtracks for movies had up to 8 parallel variable width optical 
tracks.  Microfilm with 8 bit parallel metadata would be cool.

Much better known, Vannevar Bush's proposed/imaginary "Memex" ("As We May 
Think" 1945, Atlantic Monthly) was based on it, without attribution.
"Few of his ideas were original"
Bush disliked organization of information, particularly hierarchical, so 
he wanted "trails" from one article to another.

Ted nelson credits Bush with the idea that inspired hypertext.

Tim Berners-Lee credits Ted Nelson for the idea that inspired WWW.


From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 15:12:55 2020
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:12:55 -0400
Subject: Kennedy 9800 - Power-up tips?
In-Reply-To: <CAADZ-4N3+O-O-bue6PSLBPCMNMBHfSeDd0-jQR0pKj+SS1ydxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAguHGE+nVK0+jGCXQL5cT5yUEofZCnBOnCY8LJCsACwHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <06406ade-e06c-51fd-acb6-0ced3adac466@mindspring.com>
 <CAJ2mpAiO-7MM9Lw8Qvf5vYUDFj-uhQTxY=kb8jiwOYUCoqxNCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4N3+O-O-bue6PSLBPCMNMBHfSeDd0-jQR0pKj+SS1ydxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAjzT1cXKYR_k5mrqdCW0sWehm3x-OGHahD+1Hxnamdkcg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for all the input!

@Chuck: I assume you are talking about a 100W incandescent light bulb, I
like that idea for current-limiting. And I agree a SMPS should cut off the
switch if it detects a short; not sure what kind of supply is in there but
I'll take a look.

@Patrick: There's a stamp on the unit that seems to indicate it was made in
1984 but yeah the eBayer applied power normally before I got it.

Thanks!


On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 2:21 PM Patrick Finnegan <pat at vax11.net> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 11:59 AM Anders Nelson via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Cool, thanks for your take. I found some articles:
>>
>>    -
>>
>> http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/steps_to_first_power_on.html
>>    - http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Restore_cap.html
>>
>> Given this unit doesn't have any tubes, I imagine the motor drivers/amps
>> in
>> this thing would simply go to zero output with shorted caps. The PSU might
>> blow the fuse and/or rectifier with a shorted bulk output cap. This unit
>> is
>> very difficult to remove from the rack it's in so I'm trying to avoid
>> preemptive repairs.
>>
>
> I'd personally say that since it hasn't been off for that long (less than
> 3 years) and since it sounds like you're not interested in taking it apart,
> I'd just plug it back in, and see how that goes.
>
> As a minimal step, I might disconnect the PSU from the rest of the drive,
> and plug it in like that for a moment, but it's probably best to not run it
> without a load for very long.
>
> Pat
>

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Apr 23 15:54:17 2020
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:54:17 -0400
Subject: Odd punched cards
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004231232480.26605@shell.lmi.net>
References: <000e01d61999$72768930$57639b90$@vanpeborgh.eu>
 <77DF09F3EC4C464F9319CCF7E37142C9@310e2>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004231134460.26605@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004231232480.26605@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <2D0520C4-CF6F-4707-ADC4-A1F9655E722A@comcast.net>



> On Apr 23, 2020, at 3:56 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 23 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> Aperture cards (piece of 35mm micro-film mounted in card)
>> (As opposed to Emmanuel Goldberg's "Rapid Selector", or Vannevar Bush's "Memex")
> 
> Goldberg's "Statistical machine" (Zeiss Ikon in Dresden, USA patent in 1931) was the use of light and photocells to identify frames of microfilm.
> Google Michael Buckland for lots more!
> http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~buckland/goldbush.html
> Maurer soundtracks for movies had up to 8 parallel variable width optical tracks.  Microfilm with 8 bit parallel metadata would be cool.
> 
> Much better known, Vannevar Bush's proposed/imaginary "Memex" ("As We May Think" 1945, Atlantic Monthly) was based on it, without attribution.

Based on it, or just an independently invented similar idea?  The latter is common throughout history.  Consider the "ship camel" invented in Holland in 1690 and patented by Abraham Lincoln in 1849.  Or frequency modulation, invented in 1919 by Hanso Idzerda, then reinvented around 1930 by Edwin Armstrong (both got patents; the later patent does not refer to the earlier one as prior art).

	paul



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Apr 23 16:09:55 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 14:09:55 -0700
Subject: Kennedy 9800 - Power-up tips?
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAjzT1cXKYR_k5mrqdCW0sWehm3x-OGHahD+1Hxnamdkcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAguHGE+nVK0+jGCXQL5cT5yUEofZCnBOnCY8LJCsACwHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <06406ade-e06c-51fd-acb6-0ced3adac466@mindspring.com>
 <CAJ2mpAiO-7MM9Lw8Qvf5vYUDFj-uhQTxY=kb8jiwOYUCoqxNCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4N3+O-O-bue6PSLBPCMNMBHfSeDd0-jQR0pKj+SS1ydxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2mpAjzT1cXKYR_k5mrqdCW0sWehm3x-OGHahD+1Hxnamdkcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b4901590-6b37-9b66-20b1-9227e52176a9@sydex.com>

On 4/23/20 1:12 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> Thanks for all the input!
> 
> @Chuck: I assume you are talking about a 100W incandescent light bulb, I
> like that idea for current-limiting. And I agree a SMPS should cut off the
> switch if it detects a short; not sure what kind of supply is in there but
> I'll take a look.
> 

Incandescent, yes, as a poor man's current limiter/fault indicator.

--Chuck


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Apr 23 16:11:37 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 14:11:37 -0700
Subject: Kennedy 9800 - Power-up tips?
In-Reply-To: <b33a63aa-a665-f80e-5c47-99bb828bce2e@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAJ2mpAguHGE+nVK0+jGCXQL5cT5yUEofZCnBOnCY8LJCsACwHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <06406ade-e06c-51fd-acb6-0ced3adac466@mindspring.com>
 <CAJ2mpAiO-7MM9Lw8Qvf5vYUDFj-uhQTxY=kb8jiwOYUCoqxNCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4N3+O-O-bue6PSLBPCMNMBHfSeDd0-jQR0pKj+SS1ydxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b33a63aa-a665-f80e-5c47-99bb828bce2e@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <5cd74c94-f76b-985d-03f3-48ac5a7df03a@sydex.com>

On 4/23/20 12:12 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:


> The 9800 is the 8" little brother to the 9000 tension arm drive. The
> service manual
> is on bitsavers, it probably has a linear power supply. There is also an
> inverter
> supply shown but that is probably for special applications.

That's the one that Sellam was selling, IIRC.  Incremental (i.e stepper)
drive.  Great for key-to-tape application.

--Chuck


From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Thu Apr 23 17:30:04 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 18:30:04 -0400
Subject: PMI memory error
In-Reply-To: <20200422155901.9249618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20200422155901.9249618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <b0458d6d-a24c-a7c3-da0e-ad8a9789c2df@alembic.crystel.com>

So the memory board might be bad. When the 11/83 runs memory tests the 
1mb board (of course the one that's fixed to run on Q bus systems) fails 
out with:

Testing in progress - Please wait
Memory Size is 3072 K Bytes
9 Step memory test
   Step

Error 47
Memory CSR Error

See troubleshooting documentation


Error PC = 173354       PCR page = 14   Program listing address = 014354

R0 = 060002     R1 = 100000     R2 = 172136     R3 = 172346
R4 = 100000     R5 = 000000     R6 = 172300     Par3 = 102000

It's there and I can see it in the memory map:
Memory Map
Starting   Ending       Size in    CSR          CSR     Bus
Address    address      K Bytes    address      type    type

00000000 - 07777776     2048       17772100     ECC     PMI
10000000 - 13777776     1024       17772136     ECC     PMI

But setting any CSR seems to fault it. Drat.

Any thoughts?

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 17:39:55 2020
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:39:55 -0700
Subject: PMI memory error
In-Reply-To: <b0458d6d-a24c-a7c3-da0e-ad8a9789c2df@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <20200422155901.9249618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <b0458d6d-a24c-a7c3-da0e-ad8a9789c2df@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwL1V2xOjNTzR2KFvkoZDcBhyfBszr-hH+0=v-nmC2oihw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 3:30 PM Chris Zach via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Error 47
> Memory CSR Error
>
> Memory Map
> Starting   Ending       Size in    CSR          CSR     Bus
> Address    address      K Bytes    address      type    type
>
> 00000000 - 07777776     2048       17772100     ECC     PMI
> 10000000 - 13777776     1024       17772136     ECC     PMI
>
> But setting any CSR seems to fault it. Drat.

Are the CSR dip switches 1-4 all set to 0 on the first MSV11-J and all
set to 1 on the second one? Did you already try setting CSR dip
switches 1-4 to 0,0,0,1 on the second one so that the CSR address gets
mapped to 17772102? That would be the expected CSR address for the
second one with the first one at 17772100.

Without trying it on a system myself with two MSV11-J boards I'm not
sure what happens if the CSR addresses are not at the expected
locations.

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Thu Apr 23 17:45:07 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 18:45:07 -0400
Subject: PMI memory error
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwL1V2xOjNTzR2KFvkoZDcBhyfBszr-hH+0=v-nmC2oihw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20200422155901.9249618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <b0458d6d-a24c-a7c3-da0e-ad8a9789c2df@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CAM2UOwL1V2xOjNTzR2KFvkoZDcBhyfBszr-hH+0=v-nmC2oihw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0efeffc5-fb4a-f7e4-4a3c-38ae014eaeba@alembic.crystel.com>

Yes, same failure. Likewise if I put board 1 in the same dip settings as 
board 0 I get the same failure (and pulling out board 0 the 2mb board)

Running the 2mb memory board here with RT11, seems fine.

C


On 4/23/2020 6:39 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 3:30 PM Chris Zach via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> Error 47
>> Memory CSR Error
>>
>> Memory Map
>> Starting   Ending       Size in    CSR          CSR     Bus
>> Address    address      K Bytes    address      type    type
>>
>> 00000000 - 07777776     2048       17772100     ECC     PMI
>> 10000000 - 13777776     1024       17772136     ECC     PMI
>>
>> But setting any CSR seems to fault it. Drat.
> 
> Are the CSR dip switches 1-4 all set to 0 on the first MSV11-J and all
> set to 1 on the second one? Did you already try setting CSR dip
> switches 1-4 to 0,0,0,1 on the second one so that the CSR address gets
> mapped to 17772102? That would be the expected CSR address for the
> second one with the first one at 17772100.
> 
> Without trying it on a system myself with two MSV11-J boards I'm not
> sure what happens if the CSR addresses are not at the expected
> locations.
> 

From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 19:43:38 2020
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:43:38 -0400
Subject: Kennedy 9800 - Power-up tips?
In-Reply-To: <5EA1D9F1.1070502@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAguHGE+nVK0+jGCXQL5cT5yUEofZCnBOnCY8LJCsACwHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <06406ade-e06c-51fd-acb6-0ced3adac466@mindspring.com>
 <CAJ2mpAiO-7MM9Lw8Qvf5vYUDFj-uhQTxY=kb8jiwOYUCoqxNCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHDf=2WVNc_bA=bZE4NFi+2NOBFJ0qOf1pDYVd8BeG5bXwWgKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5EA1D9F1.1070502@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAj1dZVbjeYDvnb9cayMNiPWj6GFSxnGg-aW6K55UDAw7A@mail.gmail.com>

Hey this is all super useful info, thanks!

Any idea how to visually identify a tantalum cap? I suppose I could Google
it but maybe standards have changed between 1984 and 2020?

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 8:06 PM Jon Elson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 04/23/2020 12:53 PM, Robert via cctalk wrote:
> > I'm under caffeinated and not really with it yet, having recently gone
> semi
> > nocturnal, so you'll want to double check this with someone who's
> actually
> > awake.
> >
> > That said, variacs aren't a universal panacea and can sometimes be
> harmful
> > rather than helpful.  My disorganized memory is offering TVs as an
> example,
> > but take that with a pinch of salt. I've only ever used them with tube
> > radios and amps, so have nothing further to offer,  save this caution.
> >
> Well, if the power supply is all linear, a Variac is
> probably fine to slowly ramp up the capacitors and
> let the dielectric reform.
>
> If it has switching power supplies, this can cause the
> supply to try to operate at severe undervoltage, and cause
> damage.  On the other hand, powering it up to 10 V or so on
> the AC input for a few minutes
> is unlikely to allow the switching stage to start up, but
> will reform the main input storage caps.
> It won't reform the low voltage caps in the rest of the
> unit, though.  You could apply low voltage
> (1-2 V for a minute or two) to each low voltage rail before
> fully powering on.  Especially if it
> has bunches of tantalum caps in the logic, that could
> prevent disaster.
>
> Jon
>

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Thu Apr 23 20:35:17 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 21:35:17 -0400
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
In-Reply-To: <7BF69C20-5B13-4DEE-BB64-94D09DACCCBE@MatlockFamily.com>
References: <7BF69C20-5B13-4DEE-BB64-94D09DACCCBE@MatlockFamily.com>
Message-ID: <74a01ea9-6d55-ea1e-81ad-75d917f78176@alembic.crystel.com>

Well I turned on block mode DMA on my MTI controller, booted RT11 5.5, 
did an init on VM0: and tried to copy a .dsk file of 2500 blocks in size 
with 2mb of PMI memory from an 11/84 (CA, bad memory for Q Bus).

First time was not good:
.copy dungeo.dsk vm:
  Files copied:
?PIP-F-Input error DK:DUNGEO.DSK

.dir dungeo.dsk

DUNGEO.DSK  2500P
  1 Files, 2500 Blocks
  34488 Free blocks

Second time was better, took ~4 seconds.

.copy dungeo.dsk vm:
  Files copied:
DK:DUNGEO.DSK  to VM:DUNGEO.DSK

Switched off block mode and tried again:

Takes 5 seconds.

Changed burst length from 16 words to 2:
Took 25 seconds.
4: 23 seconds
16: 5 seconds

Turning off the throttle mode (which requires Block mode and 16 word 
transfers) and it took 4 seconds. No speed increase.

Then I decided to try using 2mb of crummy Q bus memory:
16: 5 seconds
8: 15 seconds
2: 26 seconds
Didn't do 4.

So it looks like what really speeds things up is having a large burst of 
Q busy transfers, going from 2 word transfers to 16 speeds things up by 
a factor of five. Makes sense, controller is spending less time setting 
up the transfer. Somewhat interesting that PMI doesn't really help, I 
understand that the controller is talking to PMI at normal Q bus speeds, 
but I would expect something for the CPU to manage the VM: driver. 
Unless the CPU just says "Oh, VM:? Point your data right into memory and 
be done with it".

Moral: PMI memory does not really speed up disk to memory performance. 
Good to know. Anyone know a good benchmark to see if PMI is worth 
anything in terms of performance? Maybe the unibus map interfacing 
directly to PMI speeds things up a lot by allowing full hog mode DMA 
(which in theory could mean that an 11/84 could run a RH11-C controller 
and keep up with disks like the RM02 and RM05)

Thinking along those lines, was the 11/70's MASSBUS channels nothing 
more than RH11-C's attached to the old FASTBUS on the 11/45 cpu core 
(which is what an 11/70 really is, with cache) or did they port right to 
the memory box?

C

From useddec at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 21:20:04 2020
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 21:20:04 -0500
Subject: PMI memory error
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwL1V2xOjNTzR2KFvkoZDcBhyfBszr-hH+0=v-nmC2oihw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20200422155901.9249618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <b0458d6d-a24c-a7c3-da0e-ad8a9789c2df@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CAM2UOwL1V2xOjNTzR2KFvkoZDcBhyfBszr-hH+0=v-nmC2oihw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMuY1A5vyMbc+ohBGO=xrB80uuYvqtORQQjeRAWM08HwQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have a stack of them here if you need them. I think they are $175 each,
$150
each for 2 or more, + $12.50 shipping for any qty.

Paul

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 5:40 PM Glen Slick via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 3:30 PM Chris Zach via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Error 47
> > Memory CSR Error
> >
> > Memory Map
> > Starting   Ending       Size in    CSR          CSR     Bus
> > Address    address      K Bytes    address      type    type
> >
> > 00000000 - 07777776     2048       17772100     ECC     PMI
> > 10000000 - 13777776     1024       17772136     ECC     PMI
> >
> > But setting any CSR seems to fault it. Drat.
>
> Are the CSR dip switches 1-4 all set to 0 on the first MSV11-J and all
> set to 1 on the second one? Did you already try setting CSR dip
> switches 1-4 to 0,0,0,1 on the second one so that the CSR address gets
> mapped to 17772102? That would be the expected CSR address for the
> second one with the first one at 17772100.
>
> Without trying it on a system myself with two MSV11-J boards I'm not
> sure what happens if the CSR addresses are not at the expected
> locations.
>

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Apr 23 22:19:35 2020
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:19:35 -0500
Subject: Kennedy 9800 - Power-up tips?
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAj1dZVbjeYDvnb9cayMNiPWj6GFSxnGg-aW6K55UDAw7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAguHGE+nVK0+jGCXQL5cT5yUEofZCnBOnCY8LJCsACwHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <06406ade-e06c-51fd-acb6-0ced3adac466@mindspring.com>
 <CAJ2mpAiO-7MM9Lw8Qvf5vYUDFj-uhQTxY=kb8jiwOYUCoqxNCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHDf=2WVNc_bA=bZE4NFi+2NOBFJ0qOf1pDYVd8BeG5bXwWgKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5EA1D9F1.1070502@pico-systems.com>
 <CAJ2mpAj1dZVbjeYDvnb9cayMNiPWj6GFSxnGg-aW6K55UDAw7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5EA25AC7.6060802@pico-systems.com>

On 04/23/2020 07:43 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> Hey this is all super useful info, thanks!
>
> Any idea how to visually identify a tantalum cap? I suppose I could Google
> it but maybe standards have changed between 1984 and 2020?
>
>
They would be small ones on the circuit boards, not likely 
in the power supply, but possible.
Generally, the old ones from the '70s and 80's would have 
what looks like an aluminum can
wrapped with clear plastic (probably shrink tubing) with the 
label printed on the metal part.
There will be some kind of epoxy plug poured in one end.

Another type look kind of like teardrops, they are dipped in 
epoxy and have two skinny leads
coming out of the narrow part of the teardrop.

Jon

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Thu Apr 23 22:28:47 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 23:28:47 -0400
Subject: PMI memory error
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuMuY1A5vyMbc+ohBGO=xrB80uuYvqtORQQjeRAWM08HwQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20200422155901.9249618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <b0458d6d-a24c-a7c3-da0e-ad8a9789c2df@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CAM2UOwL1V2xOjNTzR2KFvkoZDcBhyfBszr-hH+0=v-nmC2oihw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMuY1A5vyMbc+ohBGO=xrB80uuYvqtORQQjeRAWM08HwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <96784950-acfc-7e62-37ba-7585f8ca13b9@alembic.crystel.com>

Thanks! I might take you up on the offer if this 11/84 memory is 
unstable. Meantime I'm trying to figure out just what kind of 
performance improvement PMI memory really gives. So far it's looking 
like zero when it comes to disk or I/O performance.

Are there benchmarks one can compile for pdp11's?

C

(Hm. I wonder if 11/84 PMI memory will exhibit errors when run with a 
pdp11/23+ CPU. Or more to the point if it is put in with an 11/83 with a 
space between it and the CPU so the CPU accesses it only via Q-Bus)

(Hm. I wonder if you can replace a pdp11/84 CPU with an 11/23+ cpu. It 
could be a way to get CIS on Unibus (although you could always go with 
an 11/24 or 44)

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Thu Apr 23 19:51:14 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:51:14 -0400
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
In-Reply-To: <7BF69C20-5B13-4DEE-BB64-94D09DACCCBE@MatlockFamily.com>
References: <7BF69C20-5B13-4DEE-BB64-94D09DACCCBE@MatlockFamily.com>
Message-ID: <86c4bf05-b664-68b3-168c-b326a8074eb0@alembic.crystel.com>

Oh I'm using an MTI MQD13 card as my disk controller. It is a MCSP 
controller that can interface up to 4 ESDI drives to Q Bus. Pretty fast.

Just checked the configuration and block mode DMA *is* off. Wonder what 
happens if I turn it on...

It does have a lot of knobs to fiddle with, so maybe I can figure out 
what works and what does not for these memory boards. Experimentation!

C

   DMA CHARACTERISTICS:                         DRIVE 2... ESDI
         BLOCKMODE............ OFF                FIRST LOGICAL...... 002
         BURST LENGTH (WORDS).  16                SECOND LOGICAL..... 006
         THROTTLE............. ON                 DRIVE 3... ESDI
         DWELL us.............  1.6               FIRST LOGICAL...... 003
                                                  SECOND LOGICAL..... 007
     SEEK MODE................ OVERLAPPED
         SEEK OPTIMIZATION.... ELEVATOR       COMMAND QUEUE.......... 008
         FAIRNESS VALUE....... 016


On 4/23/2020 1:17 AM, Mark Matlock via cctech wrote:
>> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:17:07 -0400
>> From: Chris Zach<cz at alembic.crystel.com>
>> To:cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> Subject: Re: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
>> Message-ID:<27647f0e-19d4-b484-d288-e9f3bb715363 at alembic.crystel.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>
>> Thanks Mark! Actually this was just the boards from the 11/84 (no idea
>> what happened to the chassis, drat) so it's an 11/84 CPU (18mhz, FPP
>> chip installed), 2 PMI boards (one old 2mb, one new 1mb) a console board
>> of some sort and the Unibus map.
>>
>> I popped this into my BA23 to speed things up a bit in place of my quad
>> height 11/73 CPU with 2mb memory. So far it seems to work, and with the
>> CA memory in the PMI slot managed to boot RSX11M 4.2 and compile up EMPIRE.
> Chris,
>     I understand now. I also have a PDP-11/83 in a BA123 box and the CPU and
> PMI memory (M8637-E) can move from the Qbus box to the 11/84 box and work fine
> In either. I spent a good bit of time tinkering with the 11/84 power supply which did not
> Work until I put a M7556 minimum load module in it. Basically the ? 12 Volts needs a
> Load or you get a hung bus error. Also, with the Unibus you have to pay attention to
> The NPR/NPG grant jumpers.
> 
>     For disks on the QBus systems I used the UC07 and SCSI2SD. The UC07 can be
>   can be configured for block mode transfers and I think it is doing it. I guess I?d need
>   to hook up a logic analyzer to know for sure.
> 
>      The 11/84 uses a UniBone and when it is emulating a MSCP disk, it can do 150
> I/Os a second (using IOX on RSX11M+) The 11/83 using the UC07 and a SCSI2SD
> Does about 60 I/Os per second. I think the UC07 could go faster but is limited by the
> SDcard interface. I need to put a fast real SCSI disk on it sometime and see what it can do.
> 

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Apr 24 11:23:12 2020
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 12:23:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
Message-ID: <20200424162312.C6B0418C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jerry Weiss

    > uNOTE # 028 indicates that MSV-11 JB/JC (M8637-B/C) doesn't do block
    > mode.

I went and looked at uNOTE #28, after I found it (it's not in the initial set
of uNOTEs, but in the second set - the so-called 'OEM uNOTEs"; note that the
numbers were re-used between the two sets, so there are _two different_ uNOTE
#28's).

I couldn't find anything there about the JB/JC not doing block mode? All it
says is they "can not be used in a Q-BUS system due to gate array
incompatibilities".

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Apr 24 11:43:31 2020
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 12:43:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
Message-ID: <20200424164331.D052C18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Chris Zach

    > Just checked the configuration and block mode DMA *is* off.

Interesting. So it's not bklock-mode on the QBUS which is screwed up, but
normal QBUS transfers. That jibes with the comment abour "gate array
incompatibilities" (which I take to mean "errors" :-).


    > was the 11/70's MASSBUS channels nothing more than RH11-C's attached to
    > the old FASTBUS on the 11/45 cpu core (which is what an 11/70 really
    > is, with cache) or did they port right to the memory box?

RH70's are totally different from RH11's - a hex card, and a couple of quads
- and the interface to the /70's memory system is totally different from the
RH11's (which goes to the UNIBUS):

   https://gunkies.org/wiki/RH70_MASSBUS_controller

It has interfaces to both the cache, and the memory bus (although the diagram
in the 11/70 CPU handbook shows it as only connected to the cache).

I didn't follow the "the old FASTBUS on the 11/45 cpu core (which is what an
11/70 really is, with cache)"; the 70's cache is what's connected to what
used to be the FASTBUS, the memory bus connects to the cache, IIRC.

	Noel

From jsw at ieee.org  Fri Apr 24 11:50:01 2020
From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 11:50:01 -0500
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
In-Reply-To: <20200424162312.C6B0418C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20200424162312.C6B0418C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <0ae26aa4-cbdd-c609-6828-01eda99986cf@ieee.org>

Sorry about the uNOTE confusion...? I was focused and just used the 
reference from the OEM version.? I was aware but had mentally excluded 
the older Microcomputer Products Group/Components Group version.

If you look at the Memory Comparison table in this OEM uNOTE, it only 
lists Block Mode for "JD/JE ONLY".? Hence my comment about it not being 
on the JB/JC.

 ?? Jerry

On 4/24/20 11:23 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>      > From: Jerry Weiss
>
>      > uNOTE # 028 indicates that MSV-11 JB/JC (M8637-B/C) doesn't do block
>      > mode.
>
> I went and looked at uNOTE #28, after I found it (it's not in the initial set
> of uNOTEs, but in the second set - the so-called 'OEM uNOTEs"; note that the
> numbers were re-used between the two sets, so there are _two different_ uNOTE
> #28's).
>
> I couldn't find anything there about the JB/JC not doing block mode? All it
> says is they "can not be used in a Q-BUS system due to gate array
> incompatibilities".
>
> 	Noel


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Apr 24 14:01:23 2020
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 15:01:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
Message-ID: <20200424190123.75B3918C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jerry Weiss

    > Sorry about the uNOTE confusion..

No problem, it only took me about a minute to find the right one; my note was
to warn other people who didn't know about the number duplication.

    > If you look at the Memory Comparison table in this OEM uNOTE, it only
    > lists Block Mode for "JD/JE ONLY".

Oh, right. Still, it sounds from reports here like regular DMA doesn't work
in QBUS mode either - and technically that table entry might mean than since
it doesn't work for the QBUS _at all_, that includes no block mode.

I actually have -B/-C boards, I should plug one in in QBUS mode, and get my
QSIC prototype working again (it somehow random failed during the last year,
and I've been too lazy to debug it), and write a little program to DMA blocks
in and out, and see what happens to the data. If I get really energetic I
could throw a 'scope on the bus and look at bus cycles and see if they look
OK.

It would be interesting to have some more detail on the failure.

      Noel



From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Fri Apr 24 14:16:15 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 15:16:15 -0400
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
In-Reply-To: <20200424190123.75B3918C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20200424190123.75B3918C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <2a6420ac-239e-f3f0-f014-fab16c6e72cf@alembic.crystel.com>

> Oh, right. Still, it sounds from reports here like regular DMA doesn't work
> in QBUS mode either - and technically that table entry might mean than since
> it doesn't work for the QBUS _at all_, that includes no block mode.

Regular Q bus DMA seems to be working fine. I can see the performance 
difference pretty easily when looking at 1,2,4,8,16 word transfers, 
anything else I should be checking?

> I actually have -B/-C boards, I should plug one in in QBUS mode, and get my
> QSIC prototype working again (it somehow random failed during the last year,
> and I've been too lazy to debug it), and write a little program to DMA blocks
> in and out, and see what happens to the data. If I get really energetic I
> could throw a 'scope on the bus and look at bus cycles and see if they look
> OK.

I can also bring up an RL02 with the RLV12 (also does DMA) and see how 
an authentic DEC appliance works with this memory card. But really I'm 
not seeing any speed increase of PMI memory vs. non-PMI memory with the 
exception that the initial memory check runs a good bit faster with PMI 
over without.

And that might make sense: PMI memory responds to the Q bus just like 
normal memory. So from a Q bus device perspective it's just boring old 
memory and thus no speed improvement. What might speed up is if I did 
memory to memory (VM0:) copies, but with only 2mb running at the moment 
there's not a lot of time to check for performance differences.

Maybe it can't properly handle things like 18 bit DMA cards like the RXV12.

Let's find out: What's the worst that can happen?

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 16:32:28 2020
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:32:28 -0700
Subject: PMI memory error
In-Reply-To: <b0458d6d-a24c-a7c3-da0e-ad8a9789c2df@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <20200422155901.9249618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <b0458d6d-a24c-a7c3-da0e-ad8a9789c2df@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJsREZiy8mdsBROZYumyL31NpSgJbVGc6+khAh9b3SxvA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 3:30 PM Chris Zach via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> So the memory board might be bad. When the 11/83 runs memory tests the
> 1mb board (of course the one that's fixed to run on Q bus systems) fails
> out with:
>
> Testing in progress - Please wait
> Memory Size is 3072 K Bytes
> 9 Step memory test
>    Step
>
> Error 47
> Memory CSR Error
>

Is it possible to continue past that error and then try to boot?

If you can boot XXDP and run the VMJAB0 MSV11-J Memory diagnostic
maybe it would provide more detailed error information.

From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 17:39:20 2020
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 18:39:20 -0400
Subject: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAi0=1B_A=iBqXE0NQR2hqEmzNnu=3XZ8P4OfZ-EPfMFkQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.ebay.com/itm/143536589578

What in the world is this?

From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 17:52:50 2020
From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 23:52:50 +0100
Subject: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAi0=1B_A=iBqXE0NQR2hqEmzNnu=3XZ8P4OfZ-EPfMFkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAi0=1B_A=iBqXE0NQR2hqEmzNnu=3XZ8P4OfZ-EPfMFkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <544E80F0-F4D8-46F3-9868-73B8FEFFACBB@gmail.com>


> On 24 Apr 2020, at 23:39, Anders Nelson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/143536589578
> 
> What in the world is this?


It?s a word processor, pure and simple. I have the later version and have kind of been collecting tales of the Cassette Power Typing company of Michigan - http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/cpt

-- 
Adrian Graham
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection?
t: @binarydinosaurs    f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk






From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Apr 24 18:00:09 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 16:00:09 -0700
Subject: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAi0=1B_A=iBqXE0NQR2hqEmzNnu=3XZ8P4OfZ-EPfMFkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAi0=1B_A=iBqXE0NQR2hqEmzNnu=3XZ8P4OfZ-EPfMFkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <28d87d10-b269-f0d3-19b5-e62b24473eb3@sydex.com>

On 4/24/20 3:39 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/143536589578
> 
> What in the world is this?

Early word processor.  There's a bit on the web on it.

--Chuck


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Apr 24 18:05:49 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 16:05:49 -0700
Subject: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
In-Reply-To: <544E80F0-F4D8-46F3-9868-73B8FEFFACBB@gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAi0=1B_A=iBqXE0NQR2hqEmzNnu=3XZ8P4OfZ-EPfMFkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <544E80F0-F4D8-46F3-9868-73B8FEFFACBB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86214e89-a410-b656-6ce4-0759ee910039@sydex.com>

On 4/24/20 3:52 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> On 24 Apr 2020, at 23:39, Anders Nelson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/143536589578
>>
>> What in the world is this?
> 
> 
> It?s a word processor, pure and simple. I have the later version and have kind of been collecting tales of the Cassette Power Typing company of Michigan - http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/cpt
> 

Apparently, there was a version of CP/M 2.2 offered for it, but I've
never been able to find the beast.  The processor itself is very
basic--each page is a file and the operation is of a block-oriented
editing terminal.

I've converted a lot of the 8" CPT floppies for customers.

FWIW, the thing is pretty worthless without the requisite system
software floppies.

--Chuck

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Apr 24 18:59:19 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 16:59:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
In-Reply-To: <544E80F0-F4D8-46F3-9868-73B8FEFFACBB@gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAi0=1B_A=iBqXE0NQR2hqEmzNnu=3XZ8P4OfZ-EPfMFkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <544E80F0-F4D8-46F3-9868-73B8FEFFACBB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004241610020.23705@shell.lmi.net>

>> What in the world is this?

On Fri, 24 Apr 2020, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote:
> It?s a word processor, pure and simple. I have the later version and 
> have kind of been collecting tales of the Cassette Power Typing company 
> of Michigan -
> http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/cpt

Thank you for a delightful page.  I hadn't previously noticed it.


Trivial corrections:

In Nov 2005 update, it says that the 9000 had an 8086 processor.
In Jan 2007 update, it says that Win 3.1 was run on it.
Windows 3.10 required A20 support, and would not run on the 8088/8086, so 
that would have had to have been Windows 3.00,
OR the 9000 processor was 80X86, specifically 80286.
OR, the 9000 got a processor update.
(The pictures at the bottom of the page, of ISA boards, are clearly 16 bit 
ISA, which would be 80286, not 8086)

In Sep 2008, Gary Simpson seems to have confused Double-SIDED with 
Double-DENSITY. 
Punching another hole is needed to convert 8" disks back and forth between 
single and double SIDED.   and is unrelated to density.
He also mentioned 1771 FDC, which was, indeed, FM not MFM.
(He would not be the first person to conflate capacity with density, and 
think that using both sides doubled the DENSITY; it doubled the capacity, 
and therefore the density of the filing cabinet, but not the "density" of 
the recording format.)



At one time, I received a 3.5" double density sample disk that was clearly 
labelled "CPT CP/M-80"   It was obviously CP/M file system, and I easily 
implemented that format in XenoCopy.  (It would not have been "easily" if 
it weren't CP/M, MS-DOS, Stand-Alone BASIC, P-system, nor TRS-DOS)
Was that a different CPT?  Similar three letter name COULD be something 
else entirely.
Or had they done some different drives?
Or was that a customer modification?
Gary Simpson mentions 1771 FDC, which was single density only.
Did any of the CP/M models (pre 80x86) have double density? (likely 
a 179x FDC, which was an easy upgrade from the 1771, or a whole 
different FDC, such as the NEC765).
It didn't HAVE to be pre-80286; it was possible to run a Z80 emulator on 
PCs, but few had reason to do so.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Apr 24 20:35:07 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 18:35:07 -0700
Subject: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004241610020.23705@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAJ2mpAi0=1B_A=iBqXE0NQR2hqEmzNnu=3XZ8P4OfZ-EPfMFkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <544E80F0-F4D8-46F3-9868-73B8FEFFACBB@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004241610020.23705@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <d2f7cc31-43dd-143d-4cd0-47363f9e20bd@sydex.com>

Bitsavers has some brochures on the 8000 and 6000 (cost-reduced 8000):

http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/cpt/brochures/

I've got an operator's flip-style book somewhere in my stuff for the
8000.   CP/M for the 8000 was announced by CPT in 1979.

--Chuck


From chrise at pobox.com  Fri Apr 24 20:47:37 2020
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 20:47:37 -0500
Subject: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004241610020.23705@shell.lmi.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004241610020.23705@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <AD8632B7-7E96-4E31-9B0C-A25784E2E131@pobox.com>

Ya. And it?s not from Michigan but Minnesota!

You betcha.

--
Chris Elmquist

> On Apr 24, 2020, at 7:00 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
>> 
>>> What in the world is this?
> 
>> On Fri, 24 Apr 2020, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote:
>> It?s a word processor, pure and simple. I have the later version and have kind of been collecting tales of the Cassette Power Typing company of Michigan -
>> http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/cpt
> 
> Thank you for a delightful page.  I hadn't previously noticed it.
> 
> 
> Trivial corrections:
> 
> In Nov 2005 update, it says that the 9000 had an 8086 processor.
> In Jan 2007 update, it says that Win 3.1 was run on it.
> Windows 3.10 required A20 support, and would not run on the 8088/8086, so that would have had to have been Windows 3.00,
> OR the 9000 processor was 80X86, specifically 80286.
> OR, the 9000 got a processor update.
> (The pictures at the bottom of the page, of ISA boards, are clearly 16 bit ISA, which would be 80286, not 8086)
> 
> In Sep 2008, Gary Simpson seems to have confused Double-SIDED with Double-DENSITY. Punching another hole is needed to convert 8" disks back and forth between single and double SIDED.   and is unrelated to density.
> He also mentioned 1771 FDC, which was, indeed, FM not MFM.
> (He would not be the first person to conflate capacity with density, and think that using both sides doubled the DENSITY; it doubled the capacity, and therefore the density of the filing cabinet, but not the "density" of the recording format.)
> 
> 
> 
> At one time, I received a 3.5" double density sample disk that was clearly labelled "CPT CP/M-80"   It was obviously CP/M file system, and I easily implemented that format in XenoCopy.  (It would not have been "easily" if it weren't CP/M, MS-DOS, Stand-Alone BASIC, P-system, nor TRS-DOS)
> Was that a different CPT?  Similar three letter name COULD be something else entirely.
> Or had they done some different drives?
> Or was that a customer modification?
> Gary Simpson mentions 1771 FDC, which was single density only.
> Did any of the CP/M models (pre 80x86) have double density? (likely a 179x FDC, which was an easy upgrade from the 1771, or a whole different FDC, such as the NEC765).
> It didn't HAVE to be pre-80286; it was possible to run a Z80 emulator on PCs, but few had reason to do so.
> 
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin at xenosoft.com


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Apr 24 20:50:03 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 18:50:03 -0700
Subject: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004241610020.23705@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAJ2mpAi0=1B_A=iBqXE0NQR2hqEmzNnu=3XZ8P4OfZ-EPfMFkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <544E80F0-F4D8-46F3-9868-73B8FEFFACBB@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004241610020.23705@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <23e07503-741f-bc4f-c8f5-c5e70131718c@sydex.com>

It really is a shame that little attention is paid to the early WaPro
vendors.  I remember that we had an Artec system, with a floor-standing
dual 8" drive box and a Diablo KSR Hitype with an attached one-line display.

Artec was acquired by Dictaphone, who was then swallowed by Pitney
Bowes, who then got out of the rather crowded word processor market.

I can't find a photo of the original blue Artec box on the web; only the
later PB "Dual display" models.

I mean, who remembers Qyx or Vydec?

--Chuck



From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Fri Apr 24 20:58:17 2020
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 21:58:17 -0400
Subject: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
In-Reply-To: <23e07503-741f-bc4f-c8f5-c5e70131718c@sydex.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAi0=1B_A=iBqXE0NQR2hqEmzNnu=3XZ8P4OfZ-EPfMFkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <544E80F0-F4D8-46F3-9868-73B8FEFFACBB@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004241610020.23705@shell.lmi.net>
 <23e07503-741f-bc4f-c8f5-c5e70131718c@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <a35dcbe5-67ac-9fe4-d7c3-3116726a89e6@ieee.org>

Does anybody have a wp made by AES?

In the late 70's, they were experimenting with voice recognition for 
their systems. We were a nearby DEC Components OEM and had a hundred or 
so LSI11/23 modules in stock.? They sent an engineer over to our plant, 
took out the whole stock, and replaced the 13.824 MHz clock crystal 
module with the output of a function generator to see how high they 
could overclock it to get the response they needed for voice 
recognition. I think they bought the 4 or 5 that passed diagnostics with 
the highest clock speed, somewhere near 40 MHz IIRC.

cheers,

Nigel


On 24/04/2020 21:50, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> It really is a shame that little attention is paid to the early WaPro
> vendors.  I remember that we had an Artec system, with a floor-standing
> dual 8" drive box and a Diablo KSR Hitype with an attached one-line display.
>
> Artec was acquired by Dictaphone, who was then swallowed by Pitney
> Bowes, who then got out of the rather crowded word processor market.
>
> I can't find a photo of the original blue Artec box on the web; only the
> later PB "Dual display" models.
>
> I mean, who remembers Qyx or Vydec?
>
> --Chuck
>
>
  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE, MCSE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Apr 24 21:25:26 2020
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 19:25:26 -0700
Subject: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
In-Reply-To: <a35dcbe5-67ac-9fe4-d7c3-3116726a89e6@ieee.org>
References: <CAJ2mpAi0=1B_A=iBqXE0NQR2hqEmzNnu=3XZ8P4OfZ-EPfMFkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <544E80F0-F4D8-46F3-9868-73B8FEFFACBB@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004241610020.23705@shell.lmi.net>
 <23e07503-741f-bc4f-c8f5-c5e70131718c@sydex.com>
 <a35dcbe5-67ac-9fe4-d7c3-3116726a89e6@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <29f80066-1f54-0591-3d09-7e4d8bcd1d9c@sydex.com>

On 4/24/20 6:58 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:
> Does anybody have a wp made by AES?
> 
> In the late 70's, they were experimenting with voice recognition for
> their systems. We were a nearby DEC Components OEM and had a hundred or
> so LSI11/23 modules in stock.? They sent an engineer over to our plant,
> took out the whole stock, and replaced the 13.824 MHz clock crystal
> module with the output of a function generator to see how high they
> could overclock it to get the response they needed for voice
> recognition. I think they bought the 4 or 5 that passed diagnostics with
> the highest clock speed, somewhere near 40 MHz IIRC.
> 

Some years ago, I received a Harris/AES hard-sector 8" floppy from a
friend of a newspaper reporter.  Took me forever to decode the format,
after which I wasn't able to locate the customer.

I do recall that those systems were quite popular in the newspaper
trade, however.

Here's a video documentary from CBC relating the sad story of that
Canadian tech outfit.

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1890827641


--Chuck


From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sat Apr 25 10:28:23 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:28:23 -0400
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
Message-ID: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>

Hi!

Does anyone here remember Bob Davis?

C

From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Sat Apr 25 10:37:29 2020
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:37:29 -0400
Subject: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
In-Reply-To: <29f80066-1f54-0591-3d09-7e4d8bcd1d9c@sydex.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAi0=1B_A=iBqXE0NQR2hqEmzNnu=3XZ8P4OfZ-EPfMFkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <544E80F0-F4D8-46F3-9868-73B8FEFFACBB@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004241610020.23705@shell.lmi.net>
 <23e07503-741f-bc4f-c8f5-c5e70131718c@sydex.com>
 <a35dcbe5-67ac-9fe4-d7c3-3116726a89e6@ieee.org>
 <29f80066-1f54-0591-3d09-7e4d8bcd1d9c@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <c7910bbc-1a1c-1c90-ea60-9c3830928b64@ieee.org>

Thank you for the link.? I really enjoyed seeing that video! Maybe there 
was another one done on the great Volker-Craig/NABU catastrophe, which I 
believe is another example of government getting involved with business 
and screwing it up.? I was at their factory when they were trying to 
liquidate - selling VT100-compatible terminals for peanuts - I got a 
VC100 and VC3100 (with TEK 4010 emulation) for a few hundred dollars each!

cheers,

NIgel


On 24/04/2020 22:25, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/24/20 6:58 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:
>> Does anybody have a wp made by AES?
>>
>> In the late 70's, they were experimenting with voice recognition for
>> their systems. We were a nearby DEC Components OEM and had a hundred or
>> so LSI11/23 modules in stock.? They sent an engineer over to our plant,
>> took out the whole stock, and replaced the 13.824 MHz clock crystal
>> module with the output of a function generator to see how high they
>> could overclock it to get the response they needed for voice
>> recognition. I think they bought the 4 or 5 that passed diagnostics with
>> the highest clock speed, somewhere near 40 MHz IIRC.
>>
> Some years ago, I received a Harris/AES hard-sector 8" floppy from a
> friend of a newspaper reporter.  Took me forever to decode the format,
> after which I wasn't able to locate the customer.
>
> I do recall that those systems were quite popular in the newspaper
> trade, however.
>
> Here's a video documentary from CBC relating the sad story of that
> Canadian tech outfit.
>
> https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1890827641
>
>
> --Chuck
>
  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE, MCSE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 12:11:13 2020
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:11:13 +0100
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCz5E0feiVG1brp1RUzMKjLYP=ye4uWimz+EMB=VK_WJMQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 4:28 PM Chris Zach via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> Does anyone here remember Bob Davis?


The PERQ-fanatic?

I never met him, but I had many enjoyable e-mail conversations with him

-tony

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Apr 25 15:07:34 2020
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 13:07:34 -0700
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>

On 4/25/20 8:28 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> Does anyone here remember Bob Davis?
> 
> C

There is also a sad story that his mother wouldn't let any of his collection be released
though several people attempted to preserve his PERQ collection since his passing.

I gave up trying a long time ago.




From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sat Apr 25 17:03:57 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:03:57 -0400
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>

Well I'm the one who was his friend for many years and when he died I 
kept in touch with his mom. She's clearing out the house and I went over 
today to tag and review some stuff.

There appear to be at least two Perqs, several boxes of floppies, junk 
all over the place, a couple of Sun VMEs, what might be part of a Sun 
3/50, big weird boards, at least 3 pdp11 q bus boxes, and the like. I 
tagged the Perqs, brought home some boxes of floppies and said I would 
see if anyone would help.

She really misses him and would like his stuff to go somewhere that 
people will care about it and remember him. He was a good egg, and his 
death was a very tragic accident.

I took some pictures, but what of his stuff is important and what is 
not? Who is willing to help me get this stuff somewhere where people can 
care about it?

C

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 17:12:06 2020
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 15:12:06 -0700
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>

I've recently been working on archiving a huge pile of PERQ floppies.  I'd
be more than happy to help archive any media, including the scanning of
documentation.  I know that Bob had an extensive collection, and some of
this is likely to be the only copies of such media left in existence.

Also, it would be great to get images of the hard drives in those PERQs.  I
can assist with that as well.

- Josh


On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 3:04 PM Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Well I'm the one who was his friend for many years and when he died I
> kept in touch with his mom. She's clearing out the house and I went over
> today to tag and review some stuff.
>
> There appear to be at least two Perqs, several boxes of floppies, junk
> all over the place, a couple of Sun VMEs, what might be part of a Sun
> 3/50, big weird boards, at least 3 pdp11 q bus boxes, and the like. I
> tagged the Perqs, brought home some boxes of floppies and said I would
> see if anyone would help.
>
> She really misses him and would like his stuff to go somewhere that
> people will care about it and remember him. He was a good egg, and his
> death was a very tragic accident.
>
> I took some pictures, but what of his stuff is important and what is
> not? Who is willing to help me get this stuff somewhere where people can
> care about it?
>
> C
>

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 17:15:35 2020
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 15:15:35 -0700
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLYBvLejf3q23aP6+Cv34zk4oN7_GOnn5qtG3DX1HRt8Pg@mail.gmail.com>

Also, I'd love to see the pictures to help narrow down what's important,
etc.

- Josh

On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 3:12 PM Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> I've recently been working on archiving a huge pile of PERQ floppies.  I'd
> be more than happy to help archive any media, including the scanning of
> documentation.  I know that Bob had an extensive collection, and some of
> this is likely to be the only copies of such media left in existence.
>
> Also, it would be great to get images of the hard drives in those PERQs.
> I can assist with that as well.
>
> - Josh
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 3:04 PM Chris Zach via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Well I'm the one who was his friend for many years and when he died I
>> kept in touch with his mom. She's clearing out the house and I went over
>> today to tag and review some stuff.
>>
>> There appear to be at least two Perqs, several boxes of floppies, junk
>> all over the place, a couple of Sun VMEs, what might be part of a Sun
>> 3/50, big weird boards, at least 3 pdp11 q bus boxes, and the like. I
>> tagged the Perqs, brought home some boxes of floppies and said I would
>> see if anyone would help.
>>
>> She really misses him and would like his stuff to go somewhere that
>> people will care about it and remember him. He was a good egg, and his
>> death was a very tragic accident.
>>
>> I took some pictures, but what of his stuff is important and what is
>> not? Who is willing to help me get this stuff somewhere where people can
>> care about it?
>>
>> C
>>
>

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sat Apr 25 17:27:09 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:27:09 -0400
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>

Ok, I've uploaded pictures to https://www.crystel.com/bob/

There are a bunch of 8 inch floppies and old hard disks down there.

We have to move fast though, this needs to be cleaned out. How can 
people help me on this?

C


On 4/25/2020 6:12 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> I've recently been working on archiving a huge pile of PERQ floppies.  
> I'd be more than happy to help archive any media, including the scanning 
> of documentation.? I know that Bob had an extensive collection, and some 
> of this is likely to be the only copies of such media left in existence.
> 
> Also, it would be great to get images of the hard drives in those 
> PERQs.? I can assist with that as well.
> 
> - Josh
> 
> 
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 3:04 PM Chris Zach via cctalk 
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> 
>     Well I'm the one who was his friend for many years and when he died I
>     kept in touch with his mom. She's clearing out the house and I went
>     over
>     today to tag and review some stuff.
> 
>     There appear to be at least two Perqs, several boxes of floppies, junk
>     all over the place, a couple of Sun VMEs, what might be part of a Sun
>     3/50, big weird boards, at least 3 pdp11 q bus boxes, and the like. I
>     tagged the Perqs, brought home some boxes of floppies and said I would
>     see if anyone would help.
> 
>     She really misses him and would like his stuff to go somewhere that
>     people will care about it and remember him. He was a good egg, and his
>     death was a very tragic accident.
> 
>     I took some pictures, but what of his stuff is important and what is
>     not? Who is willing to help me get this stuff somewhere where people
>     can
>     care about it?
> 
>     C
> 

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat Apr 25 17:29:20 2020
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 23:29:20 +0100
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <025f01d61b50$f7206f80$e5614e80$@ntlworld.com>

Always wanted a Perq since using one in the 80s when I worked briefly at ICL. Guess this is all in the USA though.

Regards

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Chris Zach via
> cctalk
> Sent: 25 April 2020 23:04
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
> 
> Well I'm the one who was his friend for many years and when he died I kept in
> touch with his mom. She's clearing out the house and I went over today to tag
> and review some stuff.
> 
> There appear to be at least two Perqs, several boxes of floppies, junk all over
> the place, a couple of Sun VMEs, what might be part of a Sun 3/50, big weird
> boards, at least 3 pdp11 q bus boxes, and the like. I tagged the Perqs, brought
> home some boxes of floppies and said I would see if anyone would help.
> 
> She really misses him and would like his stuff to go somewhere that people will
> care about it and remember him. He was a good egg, and his death was a very
> tragic accident.
> 
> I took some pictures, but what of his stuff is important and what is not? Who is
> willing to help me get this stuff somewhere where people can care about it?
> 
> C


From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Sat Apr 25 17:36:33 2020
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:36:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004251835230.64261@cpumagic.137clearview.org>


    Unfortunately, those blurry cell phone pictures are almost useless. I did 
spot what appears to be an M-class HP 21MX system in DSC_0249.JPG. Someone 
should rescue that one.

On Sat, 25 Apr 2020, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

> Ok, I've uploaded pictures to https://www.crystel.com/bob/
>
> There are a bunch of 8 inch floppies and old hard disks down there.
>
> We have to move fast though, this needs to be cleaned out. How can people 
> help me on this?
>
> C
>
>
> On 4/25/2020 6:12 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>>  I've recently been working on archiving a huge pile of PERQ floppies.  I'd
>>  be more than happy to help archive any media, including the scanning of
>>  documentation.? I know that Bob had an extensive collection, and some of
>>  this is likely to be the only copies of such media left in existence.
>>
>>  Also, it would be great to get images of the hard drives in those PERQs.?
>>  I can assist with that as well.
>>
>>  - Josh
>>
>>
>>  On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 3:04 PM Chris Zach via cctalk
>>  <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>>
>>      Well I'm the one who was his friend for many years and when he died I
>>      kept in touch with his mom. She's clearing out the house and I went
>>      over
>>      today to tag and review some stuff.
>>
>>      There appear to be at least two Perqs, several boxes of floppies, junk
>>      all over the place, a couple of Sun VMEs, what might be part of a Sun
>>      3/50, big weird boards, at least 3 pdp11 q bus boxes, and the like. I
>>      tagged the Perqs, brought home some boxes of floppies and said I would
>>      see if anyone would help.
>>
>>      She really misses him and would like his stuff to go somewhere that
>>      people will care about it and remember him. He was a good egg, and his
>>      death was a very tragic accident.
>>
>>      I took some pictures, but what of his stuff is important and what is
>>      not? Who is willing to help me get this stuff somewhere where people
>>      can
>>      care about it?
>>
>>      C
>> 
>

Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

From emu at e-bbes.com  Sat Apr 25 17:48:31 2020
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:48:31 -0400
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <2bc1d3bf-cfcd-247b-efe3-d40ddfaacef7@e-bbes.com>

On 2020-04-25 18:27, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Ok, I've uploaded pictures to https://www.crystel.com/bob/

Don't get me wrong, I/we really appreciate the pictures, but you should
reaaaallllyyy cut down the coffee ... ;-)

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Apr 25 17:56:35 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 15:56:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004251554310.23577@shell.lmi.net>

WHERE is it?
You might have said, previously, but it's not included here.


Help that might be available is generally going to be geographically 
dependent.


On Sat, 25 Apr 2020, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

> Well I'm the one who was his friend for many years and when he died I kept in 
> touch with his mom. She's clearing out the house and I went over today to tag 
> and review some stuff.
>
> There appear to be at least two Perqs, several boxes of floppies, junk all 
> over the place, a couple of Sun VMEs, what might be part of a Sun 3/50, big 
> weird boards, at least 3 pdp11 q bus boxes, and the like. I tagged the Perqs, 
> brought home some boxes of floppies and said I would see if anyone would 
> help.
>
> She really misses him and would like his stuff to go somewhere that people 
> will care about it and remember him. He was a good egg, and his death was a 
> very tragic accident.
>
> I took some pictures, but what of his stuff is important and what is not? Who 
> is willing to help me get this stuff somewhere where people can care about 
> it?
>
> C

From mark at matlockfamily.com  Sat Apr 25 12:56:21 2020
From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 12:56:21 -0500
Subject: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
Message-ID: <B3B943E6-7B50-42E3-BAF6-6D5F69B55D55@MatlockFamily.com>


> I actually have -B/-C boards, I should plug one in in QBUS mode, and get my
> QSIC prototype working again (it somehow random failed during the last year,
> and I've been too lazy to debug it), and write a little program to DMA blocks
> in and out, and see what happens to the data. If I get really energetic I
> could throw a 'scope on the bus and look at bus cycles and see if they look
> OK.
> 
> It would be interesting to have some more detail on the failure.
> 
>      Noel

Noel,
   The experiments you describe above would be very interesting! In the accidental tests 
I did using -C boards in an 11/83, RSX booted ok and ran for a good bit but I think errors
Started to accumulate due to bad DMA writes that either were written to the wrong logical block
Or the data written was scrambled. When this happened on my BA23 11/83 I scratched my head
Took the boards to a BA123 11/83 and repeated the mistake. Fortunately I use two SCSI2SD devices
In each system and leave one identical unit unmounted except during disk to disk backups.
With good memory boards I was able to do a disk to disk restore and recover everything up to
My last backup. 


> And that might make sense: PMI memory responds to the Q bus just like 
> normal memory. So from a Q bus device perspective it's just boring old 
> memory and thus no speed improvement. What might speed up is if I did 
> memory to memory (VM0:) copies, but with only 2mb running at the moment 
> there's not a lot of time to check for performance differences.

Chris,
   I think the way that you see the biggest performance improvements in PMI over Q22 memory
Is when you have heavy asynchronous I/O happening at the same time the CPU is compute bound
And the memory access is not well cached due to the type of programs being run. This is more
Likely to happen in a busy multi-user environment. RSX has a tool IOX that was developed to load a
RSX system and simulate multiple users. The CPU can get at memory via the PMI and not be delayed
Waiting on the Q22 bus. This is particularly helpful with larger block mode Q22 transfers that don?t cause
CPU memory access delays.

Mark
 

From tacoman656 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 17:35:39 2020
From: tacoman656 at gmail.com (Todd Goodman)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:35:39 -0400
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <d6ea9cbb-17d5-834a-cb84-d0d7fda08c3c@gmail.com>

Hi Chris,

I'm sorry, I didn't know Bob and it sounds very tragic.

Where is this located?

Thanks,

Todd

On 4/25/2020 6:27 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Ok, I've uploaded pictures to https://www.crystel.com/bob/
>
> There are a bunch of 8 inch floppies and old hard disks down there.
>
> We have to move fast though, this needs to be cleaned out. How can 
> people help me on this?
>
> C
>
>
> On 4/25/2020 6:12 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>> I've recently been working on archiving a huge pile of PERQ 
>> floppies.? I'd be more than happy to help archive any media, 
>> including the scanning of documentation.? I know that Bob had an 
>> extensive collection, and some of this is likely to be the only 
>> copies of such media left in existence.
>>
>> Also, it would be great to get images of the hard drives in those 
>> PERQs.? I can assist with that as well.
>>
>> - Josh
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 3:04 PM Chris Zach via cctalk 
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>>
>> ??? Well I'm the one who was his friend for many years and when he 
>> died I
>> ??? kept in touch with his mom. She's clearing out the house and I went
>> ??? over
>> ??? today to tag and review some stuff.
>>
>> ??? There appear to be at least two Perqs, several boxes of floppies, 
>> junk
>> ??? all over the place, a couple of Sun VMEs, what might be part of a 
>> Sun
>> ??? 3/50, big weird boards, at least 3 pdp11 q bus boxes, and the 
>> like. I
>> ??? tagged the Perqs, brought home some boxes of floppies and said I 
>> would
>> ??? see if anyone would help.
>>
>> ??? She really misses him and would like his stuff to go somewhere that
>> ??? people will care about it and remember him. He was a good egg, 
>> and his
>> ??? death was a very tragic accident.
>>
>> ??? I took some pictures, but what of his stuff is important and what is
>> ??? not? Who is willing to help me get this stuff somewhere where people
>> ??? can
>> ??? care about it?
>>
>> ??? C
>>

From cube1 at charter.net  Sat Apr 25 18:28:54 2020
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:28:54 -0500
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <fae9ac08-6332-fd3a-3972-8d3a673470ee@charter.net>

On 4/25/2020 3:07 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/25/20 8:28 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>> Does anyone here remember Bob Davis?
>>
>> C
> 
> There is also a sad story that his mother wouldn't let any of his
> collection be released
> though several people attempted to preserve his PERQ collection since
> his passing.
> 
> I gave up trying a long time ago.
> 
> 
> 

That is sad.  Similar issue with Leor Zolman's passing back in the day
and the MARC operating system.

From cube1 at charter.net  Sat Apr 25 18:43:24 2020
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:43:24 -0500
Subject: Pdp11/05 boot media
In-Reply-To: <7ac264fb-8ead-bcab-bf04-14b094575a87@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <CAM_9E63U0qxDFdUW2Risf9QQX=cjt=9LHokojK309dDFmT-5RQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBueHivqJFpEnT98iEyNNwPgW291bs=geoAn9rSwqc_t09w@mail.gmail.com>
 <0d8c597f-8e33-f7db-3b25-cce07c480c38@sydex.com>
 <7ac264fb-8ead-bcab-bf04-14b094575a87@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <12295543-5d27-d2a0-db29-3d03947a6a8c@charter.net>

On 4/21/2020 9:34 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Or someone could lend you some floppies. I have an RX02 drive here I am
> putting back together, right now I have it switched to emulate an RX01
> with my RXV11 controller. I'll look through my floppies and see if I
> have some RX01 disks I can load up with RT11.
> 
> C
> 
> On 4/21/2020 10:15 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> On 4/21/20 5:02 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
>>> Using an older version OS and PDPGUI send a tape image into RAM
>>> through the
>>> serial port.? Helps if you have a m9312 ROM board.? You can make rx01
>>> disks
>>> using dunfield's disk utility (right?) I believe but I never actually
>>> did
>>
>> Yes, that's assuming you have a PC with an FDC capable of
>> writing/formatting FM floppies.
>>
>> --Chuck
>>

Another option would be to use TU58em (a real serial port makes life
easier), and boot RT11 on the 11/05 with an image created under SimH.  I
did that recently with an S100 PDP-11 board from s100computers.com and
got RT11 and diagnostics to run.  (Long story, that.)

Then you could use that to set up an RT11 floppy on the 11/05.

RX01's are, IIRC, just standard IBM 3740 format, yes?

JRJ

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sat Apr 25 18:53:02 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 19:53:02 -0400
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004251554310.23577@shell.lmi.net>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004251554310.23577@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <20153b66-16c2-bcf6-258f-8dd5063d7dd0@alembic.crystel.com>

Maryland, south of Baltimore a bit.

C

On 4/25/2020 6:56 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> WHERE is it?
> You might have said, previously, but it's not included here.
> 
> 
> Help that might be available is generally going to be geographically 
> dependent.
> 
> 
> On Sat, 25 Apr 2020, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Well I'm the one who was his friend for many years and when he died I 
>> kept in touch with his mom. She's clearing out the house and I went 
>> over today to tag and review some stuff.
>>
>> There appear to be at least two Perqs, several boxes of floppies, junk 
>> all over the place, a couple of Sun VMEs, what might be part of a Sun 
>> 3/50, big weird boards, at least 3 pdp11 q bus boxes, and the like. I 
>> tagged the Perqs, brought home some boxes of floppies and said I would 
>> see if anyone would help.
>>
>> She really misses him and would like his stuff to go somewhere that 
>> people will care about it and remember him. He was a good egg, and his 
>> death was a very tragic accident.
>>
>> I took some pictures, but what of his stuff is important and what is 
>> not? Who is willing to help me get this stuff somewhere where people 
>> can care about it?
>>
>> C

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sat Apr 25 19:13:24 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 20:13:24 -0400
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004251835230.64261@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004251835230.64261@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <20a00a0f-7c5a-b041-d4e8-393a54530355@alembic.crystel.com>

Well, it's dark, dirty, and a mess. Also stressful as hell to be down 
there in a respirator, bandana, and long sleeve clothes.

So let's do a guided imagery.

Picture 1: This is down the first "aisle" On the left is a TRS80 Model 
3, On top of it is a crappy word processor. Those boxes in the distance 
are sun disk boxes. That shelf on the right is full of old 5.25 drives. 
I could see RD53's and the like, probably MFM and SCSI

Picture 2: A bit more to the right and more clear. You can see RX50's 
and a really weird computer in three boxes. Also can see the first pdp11 
and if you look in the center you can see the back of the perq, a pdp11 
in a really little bx with a 4 slot single width backplane, and the Sun 
VME system that looks like a very large PC.

Picture 3: You can see the hard disks and that weird 3 computer system. 
One box is on top, other two boxes are on shelf beneath.

Picture 4: Fail, not enough light. His old AV gear, probably trash at 
this point.

Picture 5: LK201 keyboards, what I think is a Sun2 keyboard, weight IBM 
thing with a wire and a switch on top. Old Macintoshes in the background.

Picture 6: Side picture of another bookcase, lot of weird books.

Picture 7. Close up of some odd stuff. The thing in the middle is a GST 
something. Blurred, very little light.

Picture 8: That's the Perq under that pile of wires.

Picture 9: Closer picture of that GST thingie. No idea what it is.

Picture 10: AT&T manuals. There are also others, what are they? Perq?

Picture 11-13: Pile of VME? boards. Are they old Sun boards? Some look 
to be memory on DIP chips.

Sorry the pictures suck. As I said, you have no idea how stressful it is 
to try and take pictures with a flashlight, gloves, and a fair amount of 
stress overall by looking at this pile. It's all dry which is good, 
there are also at least 2 Kaypro 4 units there.

C

From emu at e-bbes.com  Sat Apr 25 19:28:24 2020
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 20:28:24 -0400
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <eb78eb19-2ca0-8e40-6e7c-1d596d7d48e6@e-bbes.com>

On 2020-04-25 18:03, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

> I took some pictures, but what of his stuff is important and what is
> not? Who is willing to help me get this stuff somewhere where people can
> care about it?

When does she like to get rid of the stuff? Im close to Philly mid of
May, probably I could drive by  ....


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Apr 25 19:41:26 2020
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 17:41:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <20a00a0f-7c5a-b041-d4e8-393a54530355@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004251835230.64261@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <20a00a0f-7c5a-b041-d4e8-393a54530355@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2004251726150.23577@shell.lmi.net>

Thank you.

Sadly, I never met him.  I am not going to be able to be in the Baltimore 
Washington corridor any time soon.
Give his mother our condolences, and assure her that you care about 
getting his stuff to people who will truly appreciate it.

I hope that you can get a chance soon to do a more relaxed and thorough 
cataloging of some of what is there.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred



On Sat, 25 Apr 2020, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

> Well, it's dark, dirty, and a mess. Also stressful as hell to be down there 
> in a respirator, bandana, and long sleeve clothes.
>
> So let's do a guided imagery.
>
> Picture 1: This is down the first "aisle" On the left is a TRS80 Model 3, On 
> top of it is a crappy word processor. Those boxes in the distance are sun 
> disk boxes. That shelf on the right is full of old 5.25 drives. I could see 
> RD53's and the like, probably MFM and SCSI
>
> Picture 2: A bit more to the right and more clear. You can see RX50's 
and a 
> really weird computer in three boxes. Also can see the first pdp11 and if you 
> look in the center you can see the back of the perq, a pdp11 in a really 
> little bx with a 4 slot single width backplane, and the Sun VME system that 
> looks like a very large PC.
>
> Picture 3: You can see the hard disks and that weird 3 computer system. One 
> box is on top, other two boxes are on shelf beneath.
>
> Picture 4: Fail, not enough light. His old AV gear, probably trash at this 
> point.
>
> Picture 5: LK201 keyboards, what I think is a Sun2 keyboard, weight IBM thing 
> with a wire and a switch on top. Old Macintoshes in the background.
>
> Picture 6: Side picture of another bookcase, lot of weird books.
>
> Picture 7. Close up of some odd stuff. The thing in the middle is a GST 
> something. Blurred, very little light.
>
> Picture 8: That's the Perq under that pile of wires.
>
> Picture 9: Closer picture of that GST thingie. No idea what it is.
>
> Picture 10: AT&T manuals. There are also others, what are they? Perq?
>
> Picture 11-13: Pile of VME? boards. Are they old Sun boards? Some look to be 
> memory on DIP chips.
>
> Sorry the pictures suck. As I said, you have no idea how stressful it is to 
> try and take pictures with a flashlight, gloves, and a fair amount of stress 
> overall by looking at this pile. It's all dry which is good, there are also 
> at least 2 Kaypro 4 units there.
>
> C

From bobalan at sbcglobal.net  Sat Apr 25 21:00:49 2020
From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 19:00:49 -0700
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <ac69b16c-8191-4ab4-339d-3fcab86016c2@sbcglobal.net>


On 4/25/2020 3:27 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Ok, I've uploaded pictures to https://www.crystel.com/bob/
>
> There are a bunch of 8 inch floppies and old hard disks down there.
>
> We have to move fast though, this needs to be cleaned out. How can 
> people help me on this?
>
You could contact the System Source Computer Museum. They are in MD, a 
bit north of Baltimore.

Bob



-- 
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org


From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Sat Apr 25 21:03:41 2020
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 21:03:41 -0500
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <20a00a0f-7c5a-b041-d4e8-393a54530355@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004251835230.64261@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <20a00a0f-7c5a-b041-d4e8-393a54530355@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <5EA4EBFD.1040001@charter.net>

Chris,
     I am willing to come and help you. I would need a place to stay. I 
am healthy and I do not have Kung Flu.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 4/25/2020 7:13 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Well, it's dark, dirty, and a mess. Also stressful as hell to be down 
> there in a respirator, bandana, and long sleeve clothes.
>
> So let's do a guided imagery.
>
> Picture 1: This is down the first "aisle" On the left is a TRS80 Model 
> 3, On top of it is a crappy word processor. Those boxes in the 
> distance are sun disk boxes. That shelf on the right is full of old 
> 5.25 drives. I could see RD53's and the like, probably MFM and SCSI
>
> Picture 2: A bit more to the right and more clear. You can see RX50's 
> and a really weird computer in three boxes. Also can see the first 
> pdp11 and if you look in the center you can see the back of the perq, 
> a pdp11 in a really little bx with a 4 slot single width backplane, 
> and the Sun VME system that looks like a very large PC.
>
> Picture 3: You can see the hard disks and that weird 3 computer 
> system. One box is on top, other two boxes are on shelf beneath.
>
> Picture 4: Fail, not enough light. His old AV gear, probably trash at 
> this point.
>
> Picture 5: LK201 keyboards, what I think is a Sun2 keyboard, weight 
> IBM thing with a wire and a switch on top. Old Macintoshes in the 
> background.
>
> Picture 6: Side picture of another bookcase, lot of weird books.
>
> Picture 7. Close up of some odd stuff. The thing in the middle is a 
> GST something. Blurred, very little light.
>
> Picture 8: That's the Perq under that pile of wires.
>
> Picture 9: Closer picture of that GST thingie. No idea what it is.
>
> Picture 10: AT&T manuals. There are also others, what are they? Perq?
>
> Picture 11-13: Pile of VME? boards. Are they old Sun boards? Some look 
> to be memory on DIP chips.
>
> Sorry the pictures suck. As I said, you have no idea how stressful it 
> is to try and take pictures with a flashlight, gloves, and a fair 
> amount of stress overall by looking at this pile. It's all dry which 
> is good, there are also at least 2 Kaypro 4 units there.
>
> C
>


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 21:21:25 2020
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 22:21:25 -0400
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <5EA4EBFD.1040001@charter.net>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004251835230.64261@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <20a00a0f-7c5a-b041-d4e8-393a54530355@alembic.crystel.com>
 <5EA4EBFD.1040001@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuf-jSVivk+MG5viVhXU5tXkiSuGio4J3dMB64Er8Wavcg@mail.gmail.com>

I live nearby, I have a trailer.  let me know and I will help.  I have done
many rescues in Baltimore/Washington.  I don't want this stuff permanently,
so someone will have to arrange to grab it from me or I will donate to
VCFed.  Whomever is in charge, let me know via
https://www.vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm  I resqued a Perq and donated
it to what was then MARCH, now vcfed.  It would be useful to at least try
to get one working Perq system there.
Bill Degnan
kennettclassic.com
vintagecomputer.net

On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 10:03 PM Richard Pope via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Chris,
>      I am willing to come and help you. I would need a place to stay. I
> am healthy and I do not have Kung Flu.
> GOD Bless and Thanks,
> rich!
>
> On 4/25/2020 7:13 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> > Well, it's dark, dirty, and a mess. Also stressful as hell to be down
> > there in a respirator, bandana, and long sleeve clothes.
> >
> > So let's do a guided imagery.
> >
> > Picture 1: This is down the first "aisle" On the left is a TRS80 Model
> > 3, On top of it is a crappy word processor. Those boxes in the
> > distance are sun disk boxes. That shelf on the right is full of old
> > 5.25 drives. I could see RD53's and the like, probably MFM and SCSI
> >
> > Picture 2: A bit more to the right and more clear. You can see RX50's
> > and a really weird computer in three boxes. Also can see the first
> > pdp11 and if you look in the center you can see the back of the perq,
> > a pdp11 in a really little bx with a 4 slot single width backplane,
> > and the Sun VME system that looks like a very large PC.
> >
> > Picture 3: You can see the hard disks and that weird 3 computer
> > system. One box is on top, other two boxes are on shelf beneath.
> >
> > Picture 4: Fail, not enough light. His old AV gear, probably trash at
> > this point.
> >
> > Picture 5: LK201 keyboards, what I think is a Sun2 keyboard, weight
> > IBM thing with a wire and a switch on top. Old Macintoshes in the
> > background.
> >
> > Picture 6: Side picture of another bookcase, lot of weird books.
> >
> > Picture 7. Close up of some odd stuff. The thing in the middle is a
> > GST something. Blurred, very little light.
> >
> > Picture 8: That's the Perq under that pile of wires.
> >
> > Picture 9: Closer picture of that GST thingie. No idea what it is.
> >
> > Picture 10: AT&T manuals. There are also others, what are they? Perq?
> >
> > Picture 11-13: Pile of VME? boards. Are they old Sun boards? Some look
> > to be memory on DIP chips.
> >
> > Sorry the pictures suck. As I said, you have no idea how stressful it
> > is to try and take pictures with a flashlight, gloves, and a fair
> > amount of stress overall by looking at this pile. It's all dry which
> > is good, there are also at least 2 Kaypro 4 units there.
> >
> > C
> >
>
>

From linimon at lonesome.com  Sun Apr 26 00:53:25 2020
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 05:53:25 +0000
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <20a00a0f-7c5a-b041-d4e8-393a54530355@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004251835230.64261@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <20a00a0f-7c5a-b041-d4e8-393a54530355@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <20200426055324.GA632@lonesome.com>

On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 08:13:24PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Well, it's dark, dirty, and a mess. Also stressful as hell to be
> down there in a respirator, bandana, and long sleeve clothes.

And a bit heartbreaking :-(

I'm a long ways away so can't help.  Good luck.

mcl

From couryhouse at aol.com  Sun Apr 26 04:15:40 2020
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 09:15:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <20200426055324.GA632@lonesome.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004251835230.64261@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <20a00a0f-7c5a-b041-d4e8-393a54530355@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20200426055324.GA632@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <1502296506.270393.1587892540614@mail.yahoo.com>

I have not? read? all messages? about the? condition? if? the environment but.....if there is? mold? it is? BAD NEWS? ?many times? gear? that? exists in? an environment like that? picks up? the spores thus? infecting things? later in a new location wise you are in a respirator ...? you? really? do? not? want? to loose lung function...
In a message dated 4/25/2020 10:53:32 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:linimon at lonesome.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org
On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 08:13:24PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Well, it's dark, dirty, and a mess. Also stressful as hell to be
> down there in a respirator, bandana, and long sleeve clothes.

And a bit heartbreaking :-(

I'm a long ways away so can't help.? Good luck.

mcl


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Apr 26 06:23:48 2020
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 07:23:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
Message-ID: <20200426112348.F095618C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Chris Zach

    > We have to move fast though, this needs to be cleaned out. How can
    > people help me on this?

I'm sure there must be institutions that would love to have the PERQs; they
were very important machines, historically, and are quite rare.

Alas, although I'd normally be up for helping in such a recovery operation
(I'm in Virginia), I'm recovering from a moderate case of Covid19 (didn't
have to go to hospital, luckily, but I had a bad fever), and am still pretty
weak, so it's probably beyond me at this point.

	Noel

From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 06:45:23 2020
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 12:45:23 +0100
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <025f01d61b50$f7206f80$e5614e80$@ntlworld.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <025f01d61b50$f7206f80$e5614e80$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCxMg1-BX3DPEtsFN-bawM1sQthZxi0-oWeHgT+_UY6cUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 11:29 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Always wanted a Perq since using one in the 80s when I worked briefly at ICL. Guess this is all in the USA though.

You're making me feel very greedy, as I have 4 of them. All different,
and none for sale...

>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
> > There appear to be at least two Perqs, several boxes of floppies, junk all over
> > the place, a couple of Sun VMEs, what might be part of a Sun 3/50, big weird
> > boards, at least 3 pdp11 q bus boxes, and the like. I tagged the Perqs, brought
> > home some boxes of floppies and said I would see if anyone would help.

The 'big weird boards' may be part of the prototype PERQ 3 system (I
know Bob had some of that) which is essentially unique and therefore
worth saving. Not to be confused with the UK PERQ AGW3300 (aka PERQ
3a) which is a 68020 Unix box made by ICL, rare but not unique.

-tony

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sun Apr 26 10:06:46 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:06:46 -0400
Subject: Bob pictures from 2005, it's like the titanic....
Message-ID: <d05f754b-4808-3939-2204-dc521a2e1e37@alembic.crystel.com>

The outpouring of messages and help has been quite inspirational. It 
seems that the Perq data is really important, so I will be going back 
today for a bit to try and get the boxes of data tapes out of there. 
DC600's, I'm sure they will need to be restored somehow but I'll try to 
get them.

In the meantime here are 4 pictures from 2005 of the stash. To be honest 
almost nothing has changed between then and now, it was like looking at 
pictures of the titanic from 1912 and today.

https://www.crystel.com/bob/bob%201.jpg
https://www.crystel.com/bob/bob%202.jpg
https://www.crystel.com/bob/bob%203.jpg
https://www.crystel.com/bob/bob%204.jpg

Chris

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sun Apr 26 10:08:14 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:08:14 -0400
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <1502296506.270393.1587892540614@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004251835230.64261@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <20a00a0f-7c5a-b041-d4e8-393a54530355@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20200426055324.GA632@lonesome.com>
 <1502296506.270393.1587892540614@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b2629e71-102e-b5ee-75eb-1a0e502215a6@alembic.crystel.com>

*nod* Anything that comes out of there will go into an outdoor shed 
until it's cleaned...



On 4/26/2020 5:15 AM, ED SHARPE wrote:
> I have not? read? all messages? about the? condition? if? the 
> environment but.....if there is? mold? it is? BAD NEWS? ?many times  
> gear? that? exists in? an environment like that? picks up? the spores 
> thus? infecting things? later in a new location wise you are in a 
> respirator ...? you? really? do? not? want? to loose lung function...
> 
> In a message dated 4/25/2020 10:53:32 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:
> linimon at lonesome.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org
> 
>     On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 08:13:24PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> 
>      > Well, it's dark, dirty, and a mess. Also stressful as hell to be
>      > down there in a respirator, bandana, and long sleeve clothes.
> 
> 
>     And a bit heartbreaking :-(
> 
>     I'm a long ways away so can't help.? Good luck.
> 
>     mcl
> 

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 10:21:32 2020
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 10:21:32 -0500
Subject: Bob pictures from 2005, it's like the titanic....
In-Reply-To: <d05f754b-4808-3939-2204-dc521a2e1e37@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <d05f754b-4808-3939-2204-dc521a2e1e37@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21SSLx-TswoF7M4axJmvrq3+6+++2fDZ2zKwhx6zAS_UQ@mail.gmail.com>

was this test equipment lab also used for making sound? see the 2 mixing
boards on bottom right

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:06 AM Chris Zach via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> The outpouring of messages and help has been quite inspirational. It
> seems that the Perq data is really important, so I will be going back
> today for a bit to try and get the boxes of data tapes out of there.
> DC600's, I'm sure they will need to be restored somehow but I'll try to
> get them.
>
> In the meantime here are 4 pictures from 2005 of the stash. To be honest
> almost nothing has changed between then and now, it was like looking at
> pictures of the titanic from 1912 and today.
>
> https://www.crystel.com/bob/bob%201.jpg
> https://www.crystel.com/bob/bob%202.jpg
> https://www.crystel.com/bob/bob%203.jpg
> https://www.crystel.com/bob/bob%204.jpg
>
> Chris
>

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Sun Apr 26 10:25:25 2020
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 08:25:25 -0700
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <20a00a0f-7c5a-b041-d4e8-393a54530355@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004251835230.64261@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <20a00a0f-7c5a-b041-d4e8-393a54530355@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <2BFC4658-0BF8-4903-AFE4-268DF1C6E0FA@avanthar.com>



> On Apr 25, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Picture 4: Fail, not enough light. His old AV gear, probably trash at this point.

Absolutely not trash, help his Mom find a place in the area that specializes in Vintage audio gear.  The primary problem is that this isn?t a good time to deal with such stuff.  Obviously neither this or the old photo are good enough to recognize stuff.  However, I do see a reel-to-reel recorder.  Some old AV gear is highly sought after by both audiophiles and hipsters.

Zane



From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sun Apr 26 10:54:30 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:54:30 -0400
Subject: Bob pictures from 2005, it's like the titanic....
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs21SSLx-TswoF7M4axJmvrq3+6+++2fDZ2zKwhx6zAS_UQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d05f754b-4808-3939-2204-dc521a2e1e37@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CAA3rs21SSLx-TswoF7M4axJmvrq3+6+++2fDZ2zKwhx6zAS_UQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7318e4dc-6580-7b47-09e6-09e6e9e1b645@alembic.crystel.com>

Yes. Bob liked music. Is that stuff worth saving?

C

On 4/26/2020 11:21 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
> was this test equipment lab also used for making sound? see the 2 mixing 
> boards on bottom right
> 
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:06 AM Chris Zach via cctalk 
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> 
>     The outpouring of messages and help has been quite inspirational. It
>     seems that the Perq data is really important, so I will be going back
>     today for a bit to try and get the boxes of data tapes out of there.
>     DC600's, I'm sure they will need to be restored somehow but I'll try to
>     get them.
> 
>     In the meantime here are 4 pictures from 2005 of the stash. To be
>     honest
>     almost nothing has changed between then and now, it was like looking at
>     pictures of the titanic from 1912 and today.
> 
>     https://www.crystel.com/bob/bob%201.jpg
>     https://www.crystel.com/bob/bob%202.jpg
>     https://www.crystel.com/bob/bob%203.jpg
>     https://www.crystel.com/bob/bob%204.jpg
> 
>     Chris
> 

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 13:50:36 2020
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 13:50:36 -0500
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <CAHkUCCxMg1-BX3DPEtsFN-bawM1sQthZxi0-oWeHgT+_UY6cUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <025f01d61b50$f7206f80$e5614e80$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAHkUCCxMg1-BX3DPEtsFN-bawM1sQthZxi0-oWeHgT+_UY6cUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b5a0a921-f4cd-15c6-19a9-61763af87ed5@gmail.com>

On 4/26/20 6:45 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
> You're making me feel very greedy, as I have 4 of them. All different, 
> and none for sale...

:-)  I've been looking for one ever since I moved to the US 12 years ago, 
but they seem to have all vanished - I remember I'd see them surface every 
once in a while back in the UK, but could never quite justify the space 
over there that one would have taken up.

A PERQ is definitely something in my "top five" list of things I'd like to 
find, though.

cheers

Jules


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 14:27:45 2020
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 14:27:45 -0500
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <2BFC4658-0BF8-4903-AFE4-268DF1C6E0FA@avanthar.com>
References: <21f2ec8c-78d4-c04d-9070-6aa76abcdf3b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <15e7e555-37c4-3e09-a7da-c92c896a78d6@bitsavers.org>
 <a8d98549-e513-78e8-a5b6-ba2212f00855@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLY-VLunO=ATNPhRT0+S451OYfbM6K_JKBNVume64tp1Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1781e696-6465-9d14-fda4-13f6cd7d2c4d@alembic.crystel.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.2004251835230.64261@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <20a00a0f-7c5a-b041-d4e8-393a54530355@alembic.crystel.com>
 <2BFC4658-0BF8-4903-AFE4-268DF1C6E0FA@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21i7oh=hUva2=2f0xSJmqpWEnyDg2=aUJYF9AyrNCnVtg@mail.gmail.com>

>
> prolly rent a locker for a year or 2 just from selling the roland in the
> photos

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sun Apr 26 15:33:25 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 16:33:25 -0400
Subject: Fixed my pdt11/150
Message-ID: <de9c5d74-ad47-4e13-000f-19b6749412f3@alembic.crystel.com>

So I've had a boat anchor pdt11/150 here for awhile. It's probably one 
of the weirdest pdp11s ever built: An 11/03 CPU ish, six serial ports, 
ish, and a pair of RX01 drives.

Ish.

The trick is the system is very closed in: There are 4 boards inside 
with a lot of early microprocessors to do the IO instead of a real Q 
bus. The bottom board is a controller that is sort of like an RX01 but 
instead of using the DX: driver it uses a special PD: driver. The CPU 
connects to this with a 14 pin DIP ribbon cable, and on the back of the 
CPU module is a 64kb memory module and a serial module that has a 
console, printer, modem and three additional serial ports that are their 
own thing.

Problem with this one was that it would not come up. Serial tests seemed 
to fail using an error code of waiting for input which didn't make a lot 
of sense. So today I decided to pull the serial board and see if I could 
swap the UARTs.

I quickly figured out the problem: The serial board "connects" to the 
main board by two sets of bars with three screws each that hold the 
board to an interconnecting header that sends the signals. As soon as I 
loosened the screws I realized that the header isn't connecting to pins 
on either board, it literally presses against pads on the boards that 
complete the circuit. Nothing but pressure and springiness holds it 
together. No screw, pin and socket, anything.

With that I cleaned off the headers and wiped down the pads on the 
boards till they shined like the top of the chrystler building. I then 
reassembled and torqued the screws down evenly, finishing with the 
center screw first followed by the outside screws. It is to note that 
the hinges that hold the CPU and memory/serial boards to the body of 
this thing attach to the bottom of those screws so when you open it up 
you are flexing the assembly and probably stretching the screws a bit. 
Which results in bad contact...

Plugged it in and all is well.

RT-11SJ (S) V05.01C

.DIR SY:

SPCINV.SAV    10  21-Mar-1989    OTHELO.SAV    45  21-Mar-1989
SPCINV.DAT     1  21-Mar-1989    TODAY .SAV    20  22-Feb-1988
DECMAN.SAV    14  21-Mar-1989    SPACWR.SAV    13  21-Mar-1989
STRTRK.SAV    54  21-Mar-1989    SWAP  .SYS    26P 27-Jul-1984
RT11SJ.SYS    64P 19-Jun-1988    TT    .SYS     2P 19-Jun-1988
PD    .SYS     3P 19-Jun-1988    DX    .SYS     4P 21-Jan-2000
PIP   .SAV    30P 21-Jan-2000    DUP   .SAV    52P 21-Jan-2000
DIR   .SAV    20P 21-Jan-2000
  15 Files, 358 Blocks
  128 Free blocks

Another little DEC mystery solved. One odd thing about these: There are 
only four chip slots for the CPU and microcode, but one of the carriers 
has two dies on it so the system *does* have EIS and FIS instructions. 
Why not...

Chris


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Apr 26 15:38:38 2020
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 16:38:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: LINC-8
Message-ID: <20200426203838.D693B18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

Wow:

  https://www.ebay.com/itm/353062352448

I've read manuals for these, but I've never even seen a picture of one before.

     Noel



From healyzh at avanthar.com  Sun Apr 26 15:42:51 2020
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 13:42:51 -0700
Subject: Fixed my pdt11/150
In-Reply-To: <de9c5d74-ad47-4e13-000f-19b6749412f3@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <de9c5d74-ad47-4e13-000f-19b6749412f3@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CE99E24A-5100-4D2F-85A1-BC921846A3AD@avanthar.com>

Somehow I like the term ?Boat Anchor? to describe the PDT-11/150.  I?ve had one for well over 20 years.  At a bare minimum, it needs the on/off switched replaced, as it?s broken off.  Is that the disk that came with yours?  I like how it?s all games. :-)  

I can?t remember, are these disks formatted strange?

Zane




> On Apr 26, 2020, at 1:33 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> So I've had a boat anchor pdt11/150 here for awhile. It's probably one of the weirdest pdp11s ever built: An 11/03 CPU ish, six serial ports, ish, and a pair of RX01 drives.
> 
> Ish.
> 
> The trick is the system is very closed in: There are 4 boards inside with a lot of early microprocessors to do the IO instead of a real Q bus. The bottom board is a controller that is sort of like an RX01 but instead of using the DX: driver it uses a special PD: driver. The CPU connects to this with a 14 pin DIP ribbon cable, and on the back of the CPU module is a 64kb memory module and a serial module that has a console, printer, modem and three additional serial ports that are their own thing.
> 
> Problem with this one was that it would not come up. Serial tests seemed to fail using an error code of waiting for input which didn't make a lot of sense. So today I decided to pull the serial board and see if I could swap the UARTs.
> 
> I quickly figured out the problem: The serial board "connects" to the main board by two sets of bars with three screws each that hold the board to an interconnecting header that sends the signals. As soon as I loosened the screws I realized that the header isn't connecting to pins on either board, it literally presses against pads on the boards that complete the circuit. Nothing but pressure and springiness holds it together. No screw, pin and socket, anything.
> 
> With that I cleaned off the headers and wiped down the pads on the boards till they shined like the top of the chrystler building. I then reassembled and torqued the screws down evenly, finishing with the center screw first followed by the outside screws. It is to note that the hinges that hold the CPU and memory/serial boards to the body of this thing attach to the bottom of those screws so when you open it up you are flexing the assembly and probably stretching the screws a bit. Which results in bad contact...
> 
> Plugged it in and all is well.
> 
> RT-11SJ (S) V05.01C
> 
> .DIR SY:
> 
> SPCINV.SAV    10  21-Mar-1989    OTHELO.SAV    45  21-Mar-1989
> SPCINV.DAT     1  21-Mar-1989    TODAY .SAV    20  22-Feb-1988
> DECMAN.SAV    14  21-Mar-1989    SPACWR.SAV    13  21-Mar-1989
> STRTRK.SAV    54  21-Mar-1989    SWAP  .SYS    26P 27-Jul-1984
> RT11SJ.SYS    64P 19-Jun-1988    TT    .SYS     2P 19-Jun-1988
> PD    .SYS     3P 19-Jun-1988    DX    .SYS     4P 21-Jan-2000
> PIP   .SAV    30P 21-Jan-2000    DUP   .SAV    52P 21-Jan-2000
> DIR   .SAV    20P 21-Jan-2000
> 15 Files, 358 Blocks
> 128 Free blocks
> 
> Another little DEC mystery solved. One odd thing about these: There are only four chip slots for the CPU and microcode, but one of the carriers has two dies on it so the system *does* have EIS and FIS instructions. Why not...
> 
> Chris
> 


From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Sun Apr 26 15:52:18 2020
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 15:52:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Fixed my pdt11/150
In-Reply-To: <de9c5d74-ad47-4e13-000f-19b6749412f3@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <de9c5d74-ad47-4e13-000f-19b6749412f3@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <786087719.56454.1587934338921@email.ionos.com>

> On April 26, 2020 at 3:33 PM Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> So I've had a boat anchor pdt11/150 here for awhile. It's probably oneof the weirdest pdp11s ever built: An 11/03 CPU ish, six serial ports,ish, and a pair of RX01 drives.

> Plugged it in and all is well.
...
> Chris

Alas.  Where were you and this list 32 years ago when I was given one of these with no clue what to do to make it work?  I had it for a long time, but it's gone now.  The only DEC machine I ever had. A sad story I won't bore you with.

Congratulations on getting it working!

Will


"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." --  Antoine de Saint-Exupery


"The names of global variables should start with    // "  -- https://isocpp.org

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sun Apr 26 15:53:05 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 16:53:05 -0400
Subject: Fixed my pdt11/150
In-Reply-To: <CE99E24A-5100-4D2F-85A1-BC921846A3AD@avanthar.com>
References: <de9c5d74-ad47-4e13-000f-19b6749412f3@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CE99E24A-5100-4D2F-85A1-BC921846A3AD@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <d512e7f2-fdfc-c02c-5f3a-467ef7609725@alembic.crystel.com>

No I put together an RX02 with an RX01 controller on my bigger computer 
to format a special disk. It can only use RX01 formatted disks, and to 
make a boot disk you need the PD.SYS driver and to copy/boot the PD 
driver to the boot block.

And yes, the switch on the back is broken. How did you guess :-) For 
awhile I used it in the 80's as a mini BBS with MUBasic and a little 
program I ran on top of that. Technically it did... work.. ish.

C

On 4/26/2020 4:42 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
> Somehow I like the term ?Boat Anchor? to describe the PDT-11/150.  I?ve had one for well over 20 years.  At a bare minimum, it needs the on/off switched replaced, as it?s broken off.  Is that the disk that came with yours?  I like how it?s all games. :-)
> 
> I can?t remember, are these disks formatted strange?
> 
> Zane
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 26, 2020, at 1:33 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> So I've had a boat anchor pdt11/150 here for awhile. It's probably one of the weirdest pdp11s ever built: An 11/03 CPU ish, six serial ports, ish, and a pair of RX01 drives.
>>
>> Ish.
>>
>> The trick is the system is very closed in: There are 4 boards inside with a lot of early microprocessors to do the IO instead of a real Q bus. The bottom board is a controller that is sort of like an RX01 but instead of using the DX: driver it uses a special PD: driver. The CPU connects to this with a 14 pin DIP ribbon cable, and on the back of the CPU module is a 64kb memory module and a serial module that has a console, printer, modem and three additional serial ports that are their own thing.
>>
>> Problem with this one was that it would not come up. Serial tests seemed to fail using an error code of waiting for input which didn't make a lot of sense. So today I decided to pull the serial board and see if I could swap the UARTs.
>>
>> I quickly figured out the problem: The serial board "connects" to the main board by two sets of bars with three screws each that hold the board to an interconnecting header that sends the signals. As soon as I loosened the screws I realized that the header isn't connecting to pins on either board, it literally presses against pads on the boards that complete the circuit. Nothing but pressure and springiness holds it together. No screw, pin and socket, anything.
>>
>> With that I cleaned off the headers and wiped down the pads on the boards till they shined like the top of the chrystler building. I then reassembled and torqued the screws down evenly, finishing with the center screw first followed by the outside screws. It is to note that the hinges that hold the CPU and memory/serial boards to the body of this thing attach to the bottom of those screws so when you open it up you are flexing the assembly and probably stretching the screws a bit. Which results in bad contact...
>>
>> Plugged it in and all is well.
>>
>> RT-11SJ (S) V05.01C
>>
>> .DIR SY:
>>
>> SPCINV.SAV    10  21-Mar-1989    OTHELO.SAV    45  21-Mar-1989
>> SPCINV.DAT     1  21-Mar-1989    TODAY .SAV    20  22-Feb-1988
>> DECMAN.SAV    14  21-Mar-1989    SPACWR.SAV    13  21-Mar-1989
>> STRTRK.SAV    54  21-Mar-1989    SWAP  .SYS    26P 27-Jul-1984
>> RT11SJ.SYS    64P 19-Jun-1988    TT    .SYS     2P 19-Jun-1988
>> PD    .SYS     3P 19-Jun-1988    DX    .SYS     4P 21-Jan-2000
>> PIP   .SAV    30P 21-Jan-2000    DUP   .SAV    52P 21-Jan-2000
>> DIR   .SAV    20P 21-Jan-2000
>> 15 Files, 358 Blocks
>> 128 Free blocks
>>
>> Another little DEC mystery solved. One odd thing about these: There are only four chip slots for the CPU and microcode, but one of the carriers has two dies on it so the system *does* have EIS and FIS instructions. Why not...
>>
>> Chris
>>
> 

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 15:57:25 2020
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 16:57:25 -0400
Subject: LINC-8
In-Reply-To: <20200426203838.D693B18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20200426203838.D693B18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfSSV9Xq7dsXVwdPK=G29rrarKw33AUO5RS5ACktXTd0A@mail.gmail.com>

> Wow:
>
>   https://www.ebay.com/itm/353062352448
>
> I've read manuals for these, but I've never even seen a picture of one before.

"needs work"

That would be an understatement.




...and be careful with this deal...

--
Will

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Sun Apr 26 15:58:47 2020
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 13:58:47 -0700
Subject: Fixed my pdt11/150
In-Reply-To: <d512e7f2-fdfc-c02c-5f3a-467ef7609725@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <de9c5d74-ad47-4e13-000f-19b6749412f3@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CE99E24A-5100-4D2F-85A1-BC921846A3AD@avanthar.com>
 <d512e7f2-fdfc-c02c-5f3a-467ef7609725@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <D803721E-8BA1-4E82-A201-F307BA467892@avanthar.com>

That switch is obviously a design flaw!  I sort of picked up on it as a design flaw when I got mine. :-)

Zane


> On Apr 26, 2020, at 1:53 PM, Chris Zach <cz at alembic.crystel.com> wrote:
> 
> No I put together an RX02 with an RX01 controller on my bigger computer to format a special disk. It can only use RX01 formatted disks, and to make a boot disk you need the PD.SYS driver and to copy/boot the PD driver to the boot block.
> 
> And yes, the switch on the back is broken. How did you guess :-) For awhile I used it in the 80's as a mini BBS with MUBasic and a little program I ran on top of that. Technically it did... work.. ish.
> 
> C
> 
> On 4/26/2020 4:42 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
>> Somehow I like the term ?Boat Anchor? to describe the PDT-11/150.  I?ve had one for well over 20 years. At a bare minimum, it needs the on/off switched replaced, as it?s broken off.  Is that the disk that came with yours?  I like how it?s all games. :-)
>> I can?t remember, are these disks formatted strange?
>> Zane


From bobsmithofd at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 17:21:25 2020
From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 18:21:25 -0400
Subject: LINC-8
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfSSV9Xq7dsXVwdPK=G29rrarKw33AUO5RS5ACktXTd0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20200426203838.D693B18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANij+dfSSV9Xq7dsXVwdPK=G29rrarKw33AUO5RS5ACktXTd0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHtNYbXGwRFi16cWf+CiFefvY-oO7n=4eydA68sCF1tJ+HXyrw@mail.gmail.com>

saw a comment that this belonged to CJL.
bb

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 4:57 PM William Donzelli via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > Wow:
> >
> >   https://www.ebay.com/itm/353062352448
> >
> > I've read manuals for these, but I've never even seen a picture of one before.
>
> "needs work"
>
> That would be an understatement.
>
>
>
>
> ...and be careful with this deal...
>
> --
> Will

From couryhouse at aol.com  Sun Apr 26 17:32:03 2020
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 22:32:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: No subject
References: <1177479132.425871.1587940323603.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1177479132.425871.1587940323603@mail.yahoo.com>




From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun Apr 26 17:33:02 2020
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 17:33:02 -0500
Subject: LINC-8
In-Reply-To: <20200426203838.D693B18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20200426203838.D693B18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <5EA60C1E.7020802@pico-systems.com>

On 04/26/2020 03:38 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> Wow:
>
>    https://www.ebay.com/itm/353062352448
>
> I've read manuals for these, but I've never even seen a picture of one before.
>
Wow, those were fairly rare back when, and now there may 
only be a couple in existence.
Two complete CPUs, capable of running at the same time in 
shared memory (I think).
Unlike the PDP-12 which had both instruction sets but could 
only run one at a time.

I had a fair bit of experience with LINCs and the PDP-12 
back in the early 1970's.

Jon

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 17:37:02 2020
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 18:37:02 -0400
Subject: LINC-8
In-Reply-To: <5EA60C1E.7020802@pico-systems.com>
References: <20200426203838.D693B18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5EA60C1E.7020802@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcTnSC57uSugPq-hmjPf676anY9RsFMDsGvKJc7gw0YDw@mail.gmail.com>

> Wow, those were fairly rare back when, and now there may
> only be a couple in existence.

At least eight I know of. Pretty high survival percentage, actually.

--
Will

From jfoust at threedee.com  Sun Apr 26 17:31:31 2020
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 17:31:31 -0500
Subject: Fixed my pdt11/150
In-Reply-To: <de9c5d74-ad47-4e13-000f-19b6749412f3@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <de9c5d74-ad47-4e13-000f-19b6749412f3@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <20200426223752.C10C52745D@mx1.ezwind.net>

At 03:33 PM 4/26/2020, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>So I've had a boat anchor pdt11/150 here for awhile. It's probably one of the weirdest pdp11s ever built: An 11/03 CPU ish, six serial ports, ish, and a pair of RX01 drives.

I remember using one for a while in the early 80s.  I kind of liked it.
I think the local DEC rep gave it to us for a song for some reason.

- John


From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org  Sun Apr 26 17:38:56 2020
From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 17:38:56 -0500
Subject: LINC-8
In-Reply-To: <CAHtNYbXGwRFi16cWf+CiFefvY-oO7n=4eydA68sCF1tJ+HXyrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20200426203838.D693B18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANij+dfSSV9Xq7dsXVwdPK=G29rrarKw33AUO5RS5ACktXTd0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHtNYbXGwRFi16cWf+CiFefvY-oO7n=4eydA68sCF1tJ+HXyrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d5125fac-2d58-9603-2652-a2a80e2a81eb@thereinhardts.org>

On 4/26/2020 5:21 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote:
> saw a comment that this belonged to CJL.
> bb

That's what they're saying over on the PDP-8 Facebook page. <https://www.facebook.com/groups/decpdp8/>

-- 
John H. Reinhardt


>
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 4:57 PM William Donzelli via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> Wow:
>>>
>>>    https://www.ebay.com/itm/353062352448
>>>
>>> I've read manuals for these, but I've never even seen a picture of one before.
>> "needs work"
>>
>> That would be an understatement.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ...and be careful with this deal...
>>
>> --
>> Will


From classiccmp at crash.com  Sun Apr 26 17:58:18 2020
From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 15:58:18 -0700
Subject: LINC-8
In-Reply-To: <20200426203838.D693B18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20200426203838.D693B18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <456d72be-e1af-7cc8-ab35-b809bf1a47c8@crash.com>

On 04/26/2020 13:38, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> Wow:
> 
>    https://www.ebay.com/itm/353062352448
> 
> I've read manuals for these, but I've never even seen a picture of one before.

They had one of these in use at the William Penn Charter School (K-12 
prep school) in Philadelphia through the early 1980s. When in use, I 
believe it was paired with a Teletype, I would guess a 33 variant but 
the memories are fuzzy.

I mis-remembered the name for years as a LINC-5 -- understandably 
confusing to folks who usually expressed polite disbelief when I would 
describe it...

It was left in the "computer room" (e.g. large closet) and neglected 
after the last class using it graduated, while younger students were 
exclusively using the handful of Apple IIs sharing the space.  I'm 
afraid the LINC was picked apart by bored students, who liked to pull 
out Flip Chips, glance at the components on them, and let the cards pile 
up in the bottom of the rack... Then it disappeared over break or summer 
vacation one year, don't recall which.

--S.

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sun Apr 26 18:33:39 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 19:33:39 -0400
Subject: Ok, got the Perq tapes
Message-ID: <8344efa3-0f39-dfeb-c3ee-af5d6514820c@alembic.crystel.com>

Ok, so this evening I went back to the house to do a quick evacuation of 
the most critical stuff and take some better pictures. This time I 
brought a massive xeon flashlight which helps to get quicker pictures 
with less shake.

I also picked up a pile of Perq boards, and all the DC600 tapes and 
floppies I could take out. The car was loaded with them, someone is 
going to have to curate these. But since I know that the most important 
thing is the software and not the hardware I decided this is what to get 
as the top priority.

There appears to be a third Perq in there as well on the other side of 
the basement. No big drives (14 inch or 8 inch) but a lot of MFM and 
SCSI disks. Couldn't grab those, too heavy.

I'm going to put together a list of people and see if I can figure out a 
way to get things out. The garage is blocked by an old car, and this 
stuff will not go up the steps. Too narrow.

Never dull. Latest pictures are at https://www.crystel.com/bob (I moved 
the old ones to a subfolder). I also took a better set of pictures of 
the VME boards, look like Sun boards.

C

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sun Apr 26 18:36:07 2020
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 19:36:07 -0400
Subject: Fixed my pdt11/150
In-Reply-To: <20200426223752.C10C52745D@mx1.ezwind.net>
References: <de9c5d74-ad47-4e13-000f-19b6749412f3@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20200426223752.C10C52745D@mx1.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <64e65288-9f87-96bb-61ca-dfd1f0c012e5@alembic.crystel.com>

They were interesting little devices. Apparently someone ported 
Multiplan or Visicalc to one but Dec shot the project down. They were 
essentially a turnkey personal computer in the late 1970's but DEC was 
afraid they would cut into the sales of their minicomputers.

So it was sold as a branch office terminal connector. You could boot 
RT11 and poll 4 terminals and a printer, sending the data over a sync 
serial modem port to the home office. Sad.

Fortunately Dec wouldn't make the same mistake with the Professional 
systems. Oh wait, they did, no wonder they went out of business....

C

On 4/26/2020 6:31 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
> At 03:33 PM 4/26/2020, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>> So I've had a boat anchor pdt11/150 here for awhile. It's probably one of the weirdest pdp11s ever built: An 11/03 CPU ish, six serial ports, ish, and a pair of RX01 drives.
> 
> I remember using one for a while in the early 80s.  I kind of liked it.
> I think the local DEC rep gave it to us for a song for some reason.
> 
> - John
> 

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Sun Apr 26 19:39:46 2020
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 19:39:46 -0500
Subject: Cybernetics Data Products scrolling LED sign
Message-ID: <81813bd4-3904-0d8f-d774-02e797c8aed4@centurytel.net>

I'm trying to repair a partially functioning Cybernetics Data Products 
ADT-2002 scrolling LED sign from the early 80's. Previous owner said 
there was a power failure or lightning strike, don't remember which, and 
gave it to me. The brief version of the instructions are taped to the 
keyboard, and that is the only manual I can find.

Power supply is functional and delivering 5 volts where it should.

On boot it's supposed to say "UNIT OPERATIONAL" on the display before 
plugging in the keyboard ribbon cable. There is garbage displayed instead.

When the keyboard is plugged in, the display responds to start/stop 
scroll (green and red keys), and messages can be input. The memory 
(yellow key) and control (blue key) functions don't seem to work.

There actually is a microprocessor (8048 or 8051), but inside the 
keyboard only.

Another observation: The display only scrolls a couple of characters, 
jumps back to the beginning and repeats forever.

But the actual display board has a 24-pin Harris PROM (fuse link), seven 
2102's 1K memory for the 7 rows of LEDs and many 7400 TTL including? 
4-bit counters, comparators and adders. No CPU at all, so it must be a 
state machine, and a fairly complex one at that unless some of the 
"smarts" are actually in the keyboard microprocessor. The cable from the 
keyboard connects directly to the PROM without any buffering.

I have found that only the lowest 4 bits of the memory address lines 
have activity on them, which explains why two characters scroll before 
it repeats (16 columns). I can't find anything strange looking (e.g. 
non-TTL levels) on the middle and upper nibbles except that they don't move.

There does not seem to be any information on this unit online. I'd like 
to find a repair manual (probably too long a long shot), but even a 
schematic would save a lot of hair pulling!

Thanks for any help.


From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Sun Apr 26 19:43:07 2020
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 02:43:07 +0200
Subject: Ok, got the Perq tapes
In-Reply-To: <8344efa3-0f39-dfeb-c3ee-af5d6514820c@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <8344efa3-0f39-dfeb-c3ee-af5d6514820c@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <c0c1341df505f7bb138dd60e7a3226c0d9a4fe52.camel@agj.net>

s?n 2020-04-26 klockan 19:33 -0400 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk:
> Ok, so this evening I went back to the house to do a quick evacuation
> of 
> the most critical stuff and take some better pictures. This time I 
> brought a massive xeon flashlight which helps to get quicker
> pictures 
> with less shake.
> 
> I also picked up a pile of Perq boards, and all the DC600 tapes and 
> floppies I could take out. The car was loaded with them, someone is 
> going to have to curate these. But since I know that the most
> important 
> thing is the software and not the hardware I decided this is what to
> get 
> as the top priority.
> 
> There appears to be a third Perq in there as well on the other side
> of 
> the basement. No big drives (14 inch or 8 inch) but a lot of MFM and 
> SCSI disks. Couldn't grab those, too heavy.
> 
> I'm going to put together a list of people and see if I can figure
> out a 
> way to get things out. The garage is blocked by an old car, and this 
> stuff will not go up the steps. Too narrow.
> 
> Never dull. Latest pictures are at https://www.crystel.com/bob (I
> moved 
> the old ones to a subfolder). I also took a better set of pictures
> of 
> the VME boards, look like Sun boards.
> 
> C

picture 0269 is ECC memory and depending on version of card for:

Sun-3/260/280 and Sun-4/260/280 (501-1102)

Sun-4/260/280 (501-1254 32 MB , 501-1576 16 MB)

Sun-3/460/470/480 Sun-4/260/280 (501-1451, 501-1576)

https://www.sun3arc.org/FEH/Memory/3200.phtml


The 501 code is visible on the card or plate.


From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 19:47:00 2020
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 01:47:00 +0100
Subject: Ok, got the Perq tapes
In-Reply-To: <8344efa3-0f39-dfeb-c3ee-af5d6514820c@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <8344efa3-0f39-dfeb-c3ee-af5d6514820c@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCwV3Z+WhatPwarW1g-sN9xtrqTn1V-j76vPXQF5SOf0OA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 12:33 AM Chris Zach via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>

> I also picked up a pile of Perq boards, and all the DC600 tapes and
> floppies I could take out. The car was loaded with them, someone is
> going to have to curate these. But since I know that the most important
> thing is the software and not the hardware I decided this is what to get
> as the top priority.

If they are PERQ tapes then they will most probably be 4 track QIC11
format. The original PERQ tape drive was an Archive Sidewinder (QIC02
interface to the PERQ if it matters). I think Bob did have such a
drive.


>
> There appears to be a third Perq in there as well on the other side of
> the basement. No big drives (14 inch or 8 inch) but a lot of MFM and
> SCSI disks. Couldn't grab those, too heavy.

A quick guide to the various PERQs.

The PERQ 1 and 1a were the original cabinet, one 8" floppy drive
mounted horizontally. The difference between those 2 machines is the
CPU board. These have a 14" SA4000 series hard disk which _must_ be
locked before moving the machine. To do that you need a special clip
to lock the head positioner and a screw to lock the spindle pulley. If
you are lucky they'll be loose inside the machine.

PERQ2s have the later cabinet with an 8" floppy drive mounted
vertically.  There are 3 sub-models  :

2T1 with an 8" Micropolis 1203 hard disk. This needs to be locked too.
As far as I know the 2T1 is very rare in the States (much more common
over here) and Bob didn't have one. To lock that drive there's a
slotted plastic thing accessible through a hole on the back of the
machine which you turn with a large screwdriver (there was a special
PERQ-related tool, one end of which was flattened to fit that, the
other was an open-ended spanner to adjust the cabinet feet).

2T2 with PC-style 5.25" hard disks (ST412 interface). Most if not all
are self-parking. A machine can have 1 or 2 hard drives installed.

2T4 which is is a 2T2 with a 24 bit CPU. Very rare, and I am sure Bob
didn't have one.

No classic PERQ (the above models) had SCSI.

The PERQ AGW3300 (which again I am pretty sure Bob didn't have) looks
like a tower PC with a single 5.25" floppy drive mounted vertically.
This machine has a SCSI interface on the CPU board that links to a
bridge board and an ST412-interfaced hard disk inside.

>
> I'm going to put together a list of people and see if I can figure out a
> way to get things out. The garage is blocked by an old car, and this
> stuff will not go up the steps. Too narrow.

Old car = 1972 Mercury Montego? That was Bob's I think.

-tony

From imp at bsdimp.com  Sun Apr 26 19:54:54 2020
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 18:54:54 -0600
Subject: Fixed my pdt11/150
In-Reply-To: <64e65288-9f87-96bb-61ca-dfd1f0c012e5@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <de9c5d74-ad47-4e13-000f-19b6749412f3@alembic.crystel.com>
 <20200426223752.C10C52745D@mx1.ezwind.net>
 <64e65288-9f87-96bb-61ca-dfd1f0c012e5@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfqaaL19Ti+dOkGmwdY0=TagFgSzy0V6hDnf0Tz1rxWOPA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 5:36 PM Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> They were interesting little devices. Apparently someone ported
> Multiplan or Visicalc to one but Dec shot the project down. They were
> essentially a turnkey personal computer in the late 1970's but DEC was
> afraid they would cut into the sales of their minicomputers.
>
> So it was sold as a branch office terminal connector. You could boot
> RT11 and poll 4 terminals and a printer, sending the data over a sync
> serial modem port to the home office. Sad.
>
> Fortunately Dec wouldn't make the same mistake with the Professional
> systems. Oh wait, they did, no wonder they went out of business....
>

They made all new kinds of mistakes you never thought possible with the
pro, decmate and rainbow.

Warner

C
>
> On 4/26/2020 6:31 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
> > At 03:33 PM 4/26/2020, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> >> So I've had a boat anchor pdt11/150 here for awhile. It's probably one
> of the weirdest pdp11s ever built: An 11/03 CPU ish, six serial ports, ish,
> and a pair of RX01 drives.
> >
> > I remember using one for a while in the early 80s.  I kind of liked it.
> > I think the local DEC rep gave it to us for a song for some reason.
> >
> > - John
> >
>

From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Sun Apr 26 20:02:17 2020
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 03:02:17 +0200
Subject: Ok, got the Perq tapes
In-Reply-To: <8344efa3-0f39-dfeb-c3ee-af5d6514820c@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <8344efa3-0f39-dfeb-c3ee-af5d6514820c@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <65acad5f97c7f7959b4c51d1c3830f44353970e1.camel@agj.net>

s?n 2020-04-26 klockan 19:33 -0400 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk:
> Ok, so this evening I went back to the house to do a quick evacuation
> of 
> the most critical stuff and take some better pictures. This time I 
> brought a massive xeon flashlight which helps to get quicker
> pictures 
> with less shake.
> 
> I also picked up a pile of Perq boards, and all the DC600 tapes and 
> floppies I could take out. The car was loaded with them, someone is 
> going to have to curate these. But since I know that the most
> important 
> thing is the software and not the hardware I decided this is what to
> get 
> as the top priority.
> 
> There appears to be a third Perq in there as well on the other side
> of 
> the basement. No big drives (14 inch or 8 inch) but a lot of MFM and 
> SCSI disks. Couldn't grab those, too heavy.
> 

Considering that i see at least one SMD controller in 0273
(xy 7053-105)

Could it be case that somewhere is pedestals and CABLES ?

Original issue Sun SMD cables is unobtanium, a number of people on the
list recently discussed copying the cables, but when you don't have any
originals one to study....


0271:
at least one 3/60 cpu (serial b, ser a, scsi, video)
3/260,3/280: sio a, sio b, ethernet, reset/norm/diag keyboard "walking
leds" video (ecl)

0275: 
that card with a flat cable, that is i think a 3/80 cpu

It is enough to stuff to configure a rather beefy 3/80, a big enough
vme-crate...


From linimon at lonesome.com  Sun Apr 26 20:07:05 2020
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 01:07:05 +0000
Subject: Bob Davis and old computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <20200426112348.F095618C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20200426112348.F095618C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20200427010705.GA30266@lonesome.com>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 07:23:48AM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> I'm recovering from a moderate case of Covid19

Please get well.

mcl

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 20:08:33 2020
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 20:08:33 -0500
Subject: Ok, got the Perq tapes
In-Reply-To: <8344efa3-0f39-dfeb-c3ee-af5d6514820c@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <8344efa3-0f39-dfeb-c3ee-af5d6514820c@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23Vn2yc2WPViUsGgD70NPgCe9h-a_GwGOgj0ew+6c50ng@mail.gmail.com>

not junk
https://www.crystel.com/bob/DSC_0262.JPG



On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 6:33 PM Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Ok, so this evening I went back to the house to do a quick evacuation of
> the most critical stuff and take some better pictures. This time I
> brought a massive xeon flashlight which helps to get quicker pictures
> with less shake.
>
> I also picked up a pile of Perq boards, and all the DC600 tapes and
> floppies I could take out. The car was loaded with them, someone is
> going to have to curate these. But since I know that the most important
> thing is the software and not the hardware I decided this is what to get
> as the top priority.
>
> There appears to be a third Perq in there as well on the other side of
> the basement. No big drives (14 inch or 8 inch) but a lot of MFM and
> SCSI disks. Couldn't grab those, too heavy.
>
> I'm going to put together a list of people and see if I can figure out a
> way to get things out. The garage is blocked by an old car, and this
> stuff will not go up the steps. Too narrow.
>
> Never dull. Latest pictures are at https://www.crystel.com/bob (I moved
> the old ones to a subfolder). I also took a better set of pictures of
> the VME boards, look like Sun boards.
>
> C
>

From classiccmp at crash.com  Sun Apr 26 20:37:04 2020
From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 18:37:04 -0700
Subject: Ok, got the Perq tapes
In-Reply-To: <8344efa3-0f39-dfeb-c3ee-af5d6514820c@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <8344efa3-0f39-dfeb-c3ee-af5d6514820c@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <2f480017-76a2-bea6-b0c2-efd135972fc9@crash.com>

On 04/26/2020 16:33, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Ok, so this evening I went back to the house to do a quick evacuation of 
> the most critical stuff and take some better pictures. This time I 
> brought a massive xeon flashlight which helps to get quicker pictures 
> with less shake.

Thank you for doing this and for sharing the photos!

Pics 276 & 277 feature a two-enclosure Dynabyte Business Computers 
system. I wasn't sure of the manufacturer but you can just make out the 
address zooming in to one of the labels, and the BYTE, and that's enough 
for Google to do the rest.

Oh, well 278 has a very readable DYNABYTE label, albeit with a different 
address.

Heh, looks like that BA11-VA made it into the... Say, is that a 928? 
Nice, this load is traveling in style! And the sharkmouth sticker makes 
more sense. (I've made more than one rescue pickup in a 944S or 968 over 
the years.)

--S.

From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Sun Apr 26 20:41:05 2020
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 20:41:05 -0500
Subject: Ok, got the Perq tapes
In-Reply-To: <8344efa3-0f39-dfeb-c3ee-af5d6514820c@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <8344efa3-0f39-dfeb-c3ee-af5d6514820c@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <5EA63831.6080008@charter.net>

Chris,
     Is there any Commodore or Amiga equipment in there? I though that I 
saw a Commodore 1571 floppy drive!
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 4/26/2020 6:33 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Ok, so this evening I went back to the house to do a quick evacuation 
> of the most critical stuff and take some better pictures. This time I 
> brought a massive xeon flashlight which helps to get quicker pictures 
> with less shake.
>
> I also picked up a pile of Perq boards, and all the DC600 tapes and 
> floppies I could take out. The car was loaded with them, someone is