From jim.manley at gmail.com  Sat Jun  1 01:35:49 2019
From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 00:35:49 -0600
Subject: Uniprobe
In-Reply-To: <CAC20j8SzmH18K0Xo6HiGGa2H526ZVhuK320hV1njyrd2Xe+paA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <269764965.1533522.1559338597268.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <269764965.1533522.1559338597268@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAC20j8SzmH18K0Xo6HiGGa2H526ZVhuK320hV1njyrd2Xe+paA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2R3iuFqX1HaNRRiAoBniPafJrt8ca17mC-EOx+mOuGQQ3CoQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://retrocmp.com/tools/uniprobe

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 11:44 PM Marc Howard via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> OK, stupid question time.  I'm at work and I can't find retrocomp's
> website.  Can you point me to it?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Marc Howard
>
> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 2:36 PM Brian Roth via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > If anybody is interested in building  Jorge Hoppe's Uniprobe, I have some
> > PCB's available. I made a few extra to keep the price down. Price is $40
> ea
> > shipped in the CONUS. These have Silver fingers rather than Gold but
> should
> > still hold up well. Build information is on Retrocomp.
> >
> > Brian.
> >
>

From w2hx at w2hx.com  Sat Jun  1 07:54:42 2019
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 12:54:42 +0000
Subject: Uniprobe
In-Reply-To: <CAD2R3iuFqX1HaNRRiAoBniPafJrt8ca17mC-EOx+mOuGQQ3CoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <269764965.1533522.1559338597268.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <269764965.1533522.1559338597268@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAC20j8SzmH18K0Xo6HiGGa2H526ZVhuK320hV1njyrd2Xe+paA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAD2R3iuFqX1HaNRRiAoBniPafJrt8ca17mC-EOx+mOuGQQ3CoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1559393688730.97589@w2hx.com>

I hope the creator of the uniprobe will someday create a Q probe!
________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Jim Manley via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 1, 2019 2:35 AM
To: marc.howard at ieee.org; Marc Howard; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Uniprobe

http://retrocmp.com/tools/uniprobe

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 11:44 PM Marc Howard via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> OK, stupid question time.  I'm at work and I can't find retrocomp's
> website.  Can you point me to it?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Marc Howard
>
> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 2:36 PM Brian Roth via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > If anybody is interested in building  Jorge Hoppe's Uniprobe, I have some
> > PCB's available. I made a few extra to keep the price down. Price is $40
> ea
> > shipped in the CONUS. These have Silver fingers rather than Gold but
> should
> > still hold up well. Build information is on Retrocomp.
> >
> > Brian.
> >
>

From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Sat Jun  1 11:36:15 2019
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 12:36:15 -0400
Subject: 11/93 next step
In-Reply-To: <27e6069a-ac3d-7f73-1e1a-006b9771e2de@btinternet.com>
References: <27e6069a-ac3d-7f73-1e1a-006b9771e2de@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <dbebf6c3-41b7-ead2-fb5d-97169b80cf4e@comcast.net>

On 6/1/2019 12:11 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:
> Hi
>
> ???? Well we are moving forward.
>
> The 160336 alternate RQDX3 address and vector have been confirmed as 
> OK by one of our Techno Mages.
>
> So rather than an RX50 I'll give an RX33 whirl. A floppy disk way in 
> means I can enhance the baseline RT system.
>
> Time to dig out all of the Q-bus controllers and see what else we can 
> add.
>
> I have a Viking SCSI controller. That might be interesting as an 
> alternative to the CQD.
>
> I think I may have Q bus controllers for my RX01 and RX02. AKA as 
> 'Clonk City'
>
> 11/93 is no end of fun. Best thing since my brother fell in the slurry 
> pit 60 years ago.
>
> Rod
>
>
About the Viking SCSI controller, the ones I have only allow 2 scsi 
devices.? Useful, until you want to hook up a couple of disks and a tape 
drive.

Doug


From james at slor.net  Sat Jun  1 12:19:18 2019
From: james at slor.net (James Wilkinson)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 13:19:18 -0400
Subject: COMX-35
Message-ID: <02ed01d5189e$25bf6fa0$713e4ee0$@slor.net>

Anyone happen to have one for sale/trade?


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat Jun  1 12:53:47 2019
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 10:53:47 -0700
Subject: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID
Message-ID: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>

Does anybody here recognize the make and model of this tape drive?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7_mfdfUIAMcTly.jpg

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Jun  1 12:56:21 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 10:56:21 -0700
Subject: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID
In-Reply-To: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
References: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <1bfd80e3-8245-0f26-c075-b205edc9c09e@bitsavers.org>

kennedy 9000

On 6/1/19 10:53 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:
> Does anybody here recognize the make and model of this tape drive?
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7_mfdfUIAMcTly.jpg
> 


From imp at bsdimp.com  Sat Jun  1 12:56:23 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 11:56:23 -0600
Subject: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID
In-Reply-To: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
References: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfoK=GZCFP=DEBvuSsp-bcrhXrvjVpJby1Jpb598Vy94ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know for sure,  but it looks a heck of a lot like the drive I
loaded for backups on a 11/34a that the company I worked summers for had.
1983 or 1984 was the time frame.

Warner

On Sat, Jun 1, 2019, 11:53 AM Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Does anybody here recognize the make and model of this tape drive?
>
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7_mfdfUIAMcTly.jpg
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
> http://www.nf6x.net/
>
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Jun  1 12:58:21 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 10:58:21 -0700
Subject: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID
In-Reply-To: <1bfd80e3-8245-0f26-c075-b205edc9c09e@bitsavers.org>
References: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
 <1bfd80e3-8245-0f26-c075-b205edc9c09e@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <490013e8-4d74-598a-6a7d-d8fed801faa3@bitsavers.org>

45ips tension arm 800/1600 looking at the 'density' slide switch

make shure you get the cables and controller board if you don't take the whole system


On 6/1/19 10:56 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> kennedy 9000
> 
> On 6/1/19 10:53 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:
>> Does anybody here recognize the make and model of this tape drive?
>>
>> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7_mfdfUIAMcTly.jpg
>>
> 


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat Jun  1 13:23:02 2019
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 11:23:02 -0700
Subject: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID
In-Reply-To: <490013e8-4d74-598a-6a7d-d8fed801faa3@bitsavers.org>
References: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
 <1bfd80e3-8245-0f26-c075-b205edc9c09e@bitsavers.org>
 <490013e8-4d74-598a-6a7d-d8fed801faa3@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <3FAD97F3-FADD-4F26-88F3-B80C11982EE2@nf6x.net>

Thanks!

I am taking the whole system. It's in a rack with a PDP-11/34A, a System Industries 9400 controller, and what looks to me like a Fujitsu M228x series hard drive:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D77fRMFU0AEQtSO.jpg

I grabbed the M228x manuals from Bitsavers to look up how the spindle and positioner locks work. I had been planning to de-rack it all so my dad and I could load it into my pickup truck in bite-sized pieces, but I think I would be better off renting a box truck with a lift gate.

What are the chances that it's the same PDP-11/34A that Warner did backups on? :D

Would the brown panel between the tape drive and computer be a filler panel, or part of the 11/34A? I don't know anything about the system configuration yet other than what can be seen in that picture.

-- 
Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Sat Jun  1 11:45:14 2019
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 12:45:14 -0400
Subject: DEC QBUS power supply minimum load
Message-ID: <4b6a4e4e-1d0a-047d-bb80-22d0f4035fb8@comcast.net>

The M7264 CPU thread reminded me of the collection of LSI-11 CPU's that 
I have and want to get up and running.? A very useful thread.

This may have been covered some time in the past, but, my question is 
"What is the minimum load for the power supply in the BA11-M, -N and 
BA23 boxes?"

Is it possible to create a load board, like the board you find in the 
sbox BA213 VAX's that ensure a minimum load on the power supply?

Doug


From robert626001 at gmail.com  Sat Jun  1 13:28:28 2019
From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 13:28:28 -0500
Subject: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID
In-Reply-To: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
References: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CAHDf=2U+F88WSRgv8XjQSQapf1+t0P-LHN4uDRZz5Bisjuacbw@mail.gmail.com>

Looks like a Kennedy 9000 series, with the sliding panel and all.

On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 12:53 PM Mark J. Blair via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Does anybody here recognize the make and model of this tape drive?
>
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7_mfdfUIAMcTly.jpg
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
> http://www.nf6x.net/
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Jun  1 13:37:40 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 11:37:40 -0700
Subject: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID
In-Reply-To: <3FAD97F3-FADD-4F26-88F3-B80C11982EE2@nf6x.net>
References: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
 <1bfd80e3-8245-0f26-c075-b205edc9c09e@bitsavers.org>
 <490013e8-4d74-598a-6a7d-d8fed801faa3@bitsavers.org>
 <3FAD97F3-FADD-4F26-88F3-B80C11982EE2@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <dd7cac68-586a-d27b-d340-2dc87a171e1f@bitsavers.org>



On 6/1/19 11:23 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:

> Would the brown panel between the tape drive and computer be a filler panel, or part of the 11/34A?

it is the top half of the 10.5" CPU chassis

the tape controller is probably internal to the cpu and with have three ribbon cables going from the
drive to the controller (read,write and control)

there should be a 26 and 60 pin ribbon cable going to the smd drive from the SI and a unibus cable from the
SI to the CPU



From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat Jun  1 13:51:09 2019
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 11:51:09 -0700
Subject: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID
In-Reply-To: <dd7cac68-586a-d27b-d340-2dc87a171e1f@bitsavers.org>
References: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
 <1bfd80e3-8245-0f26-c075-b205edc9c09e@bitsavers.org>
 <490013e8-4d74-598a-6a7d-d8fed801faa3@bitsavers.org>
 <3FAD97F3-FADD-4F26-88F3-B80C11982EE2@nf6x.net>
 <dd7cac68-586a-d27b-d340-2dc87a171e1f@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <E60A0D5A-97BD-4DF4-8C03-CD86F1D06A81@nf6x.net>

Cool. So that means that this 11/34A has more backplane slots than the base model? The programmer panel is also appealing. I presume that the Kennedy 9000 doesn?t have a Pertec interface, then?

It remains to be seen whether I ever start my 11/44 restoration vs. moving it along to another collector and using some of the boards I accumulated for it in the 11/34A. I?m on the fence about that. 

--
Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net



From imp at bsdimp.com  Sat Jun  1 14:07:51 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 13:07:51 -0600
Subject: Found today
Message-ID: <CANCZdfpdMCx_ptc2cm_wSRDRik_v9W=FdSFE127Az_qWqdoivw@mail.gmail.com>

Found the Ultrix poster from 1984 I was asking about today when cleaning
out my truck:

https://twitter.com/bsdimp/status/1134855890689855488

Warner

From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org  Sat Jun  1 16:57:12 2019
From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 16:57:12 -0500
Subject: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID
In-Reply-To: <3FAD97F3-FADD-4F26-88F3-B80C11982EE2@nf6x.net>
References: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
 <1bfd80e3-8245-0f26-c075-b205edc9c09e@bitsavers.org>
 <490013e8-4d74-598a-6a7d-d8fed801faa3@bitsavers.org>
 <3FAD97F3-FADD-4F26-88F3-B80C11982EE2@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <c83dc9fc-43dd-995f-f1de-4d8d8ef914b5@thereinhardts.org>

On 6/1/2019 1:23 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:
> Thanks!
>
> I am taking the whole system. It's in a rack with a PDP-11/34A, a System Industries 9400 controller, and what looks to me like a Fujitsu M228x series hard drive:
>
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D77fRMFU0AEQtSO.jpg
>
> I grabbed the M228x manuals from Bitsavers to look up how the spindle and positioner locks work. I had been planning to de-rack it all so my dad and I could load it into my pickup truck in bite-sized pieces, but I think I would be better off renting a box truck with a lift gate.
>
> What are the chances that it's the same PDP-11/34A that Warner did backups on? :D
>
> Would the brown panel between the tape drive and computer be a filler panel, or part of the 11/34A? I don't know anything about the system configuration yet other than what can be seen in that picture.
>
Is this the system that was on Reddit?

-- 
John H. Reinhardt
   PRRT&HS  #8909
   C&O HS  #11530
   N-Trak   #7566


From pye at mactec.com.au  Sat Jun  1 17:18:52 2019
From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 08:18:52 +1000
Subject: Found today
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfpdMCx_ptc2cm_wSRDRik_v9W=FdSFE127Az_qWqdoivw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANCZdfpdMCx_ptc2cm_wSRDRik_v9W=FdSFE127Az_qWqdoivw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <329014BC-C871-48F0-AB8A-7B411C4B5ACD@mactec.com.au>


> On 2 Jun 2019, at 5:07 am, Warner Losh via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Found the Ultrix poster from 1984 I was asking about today when cleaning
> out my truck:
> 
> https://twitter.com/bsdimp/status/1134855890689855488
> 
> Warner


I see that there is a Pro sitting on the desk, was there are version of Ultrix for the Pro 350/380?

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat Jun  1 17:24:58 2019
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 15:24:58 -0700
Subject: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID
In-Reply-To: <c83dc9fc-43dd-995f-f1de-4d8d8ef914b5@thereinhardts.org>
References: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
 <1bfd80e3-8245-0f26-c075-b205edc9c09e@bitsavers.org>
 <490013e8-4d74-598a-6a7d-d8fed801faa3@bitsavers.org>
 <3FAD97F3-FADD-4F26-88F3-B80C11982EE2@nf6x.net>
 <c83dc9fc-43dd-995f-f1de-4d8d8ef914b5@thereinhardts.org>
Message-ID: <D09BFB60-EA96-4603-86DF-6E88834ECDAE@nf6x.net>

> On Jun 1, 2019, at 14:57, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Is this the system that was on Reddit?

Yes. I?ll be fetching it next weekend. I?m excited! I wonder if the hard drive is still usable, and if there is anything interesting on it?

By a chance meeting with my neighbor today, I learned he has a bunch of pallet racking from a defunct business he emptied out. He offered that I could go grab some for myself. He also mentioned that he planned to bring some to his farm next door to me before he sells off the rest. Since I?m planning to rent a truck next weekend anyway, I offered to help out by hauling for both of us in exchange for taking a skim off the top of the pile. It?ll be a busy weekend!

--
Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net


From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org  Sat Jun  1 17:27:15 2019
From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 17:27:15 -0500
Subject: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID
In-Reply-To: <D09BFB60-EA96-4603-86DF-6E88834ECDAE@nf6x.net>
References: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
 <1bfd80e3-8245-0f26-c075-b205edc9c09e@bitsavers.org>
 <490013e8-4d74-598a-6a7d-d8fed801faa3@bitsavers.org>
 <3FAD97F3-FADD-4F26-88F3-B80C11982EE2@nf6x.net>
 <c83dc9fc-43dd-995f-f1de-4d8d8ef914b5@thereinhardts.org>
 <D09BFB60-EA96-4603-86DF-6E88834ECDAE@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <81a661e1-9430-c75b-e5f4-ba54548d8caf@thereinhardts.org>

On 6/1/2019 5:24 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:
>> On Jun 1, 2019, at 14:57, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> Is this the system that was on Reddit?
> Yes. I?ll be fetching it next weekend. I?m excited! I wonder if the hard drive is still usable, and if there is anything interesting on it?
>
> By a chance meeting with my neighbor today, I learned he has a bunch of pallet racking from a defunct business he emptied out. He offered that I could go grab some for myself. He also mentioned that he planned to bring some to his farm next door to me before he sells off the rest. Since I?m planning to rent a truck next weekend anyway, I offered to help out by hauling for both of us in exchange for taking a skim off the top of the pile. It?ll be a busy weekend!
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net>
> http://www.nf6x.net
>
>
Congrats!!? Should be fun to play with.? I just picked up a Micro PDP-11/53 which is about the biggest I can fit into my office/computer room.? lol

-- 
John H. Reinhardt
   PRRT&HS  #8909
   C&O HS  #11530
   N-Trak   #7566


From imp at bsdimp.com  Sat Jun  1 17:37:10 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 16:37:10 -0600
Subject: Found today
In-Reply-To: <329014BC-C871-48F0-AB8A-7B411C4B5ACD@mactec.com.au>
References: <CANCZdfpdMCx_ptc2cm_wSRDRik_v9W=FdSFE127Az_qWqdoivw@mail.gmail.com>
 <329014BC-C871-48F0-AB8A-7B411C4B5ACD@mactec.com.au>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrWHQdBh+kTy6G-4PdY+AsxKdFrhfHincCafA0+cOBnfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 1, 2019, 4:19 PM Chris Pye <pye at mactec.com.au> wrote:

>
> > On 2 Jun 2019, at 5:07 am, Warner Losh via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Found the Ultrix poster from 1984 I was asking about today when cleaning
> > out my truck:
> >
> > https://twitter.com/bsdimp/status/1134855890689855488
> >
> > Warner
>
>
> I see that there is a Pro sitting on the desk, was there are version of
> Ultrix for the Pro 350/380?


Yes. Ultrix, venix and 2BSD all run on the pro.

Warner

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat Jun  1 17:42:00 2019
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 15:42:00 -0700
Subject: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID
In-Reply-To: <81a661e1-9430-c75b-e5f4-ba54548d8caf@thereinhardts.org>
References: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
 <1bfd80e3-8245-0f26-c075-b205edc9c09e@bitsavers.org>
 <490013e8-4d74-598a-6a7d-d8fed801faa3@bitsavers.org>
 <3FAD97F3-FADD-4F26-88F3-B80C11982EE2@nf6x.net>
 <c83dc9fc-43dd-995f-f1de-4d8d8ef914b5@thereinhardts.org>
 <D09BFB60-EA96-4603-86DF-6E88834ECDAE@nf6x.net>
 <81a661e1-9430-c75b-e5f4-ba54548d8caf@thereinhardts.org>
Message-ID: <D084F113-B70C-49BF-85AF-C08404229430@nf6x.net>

> On Jun 1, 2019, at 15:27, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Congrats!!  Should be fun to play with.  I just picked up a Micro PDP-11/53 which is about the biggest I can fit into my office/computer room.  lol
> 

Neat! I?d like to get a PDP-11 in that form factor someday. 

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Sat Jun  1 18:02:13 2019
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 11:02:13 +1200
Subject: Updates to the Dick Smith System 80 site
Message-ID: <CACaZng=wkpiMjAz9skRzWWQ3mn74ER=rPTndw2bKMpSGT64BXg@mail.gmail.com>

Apologies for cross-posting. I've added a few new bits and pieces to the
Dick Smith System 80 site.  If anyone is interested, take a look at the
first three entries under this link.

https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/whats_new.htm

Incidentally, this month is somewhat of a milestone. It's 20 years since
the site went live!

Terry Stewart (Tez)

From steven at malikoff.com  Sat Jun  1 18:22:08 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 09:22:08 +1000
Subject: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID
In-Reply-To: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
References: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <546c1791b1da447c35f3ce2d725d6872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Mark said
> Does anybody here recognize the make and model of this tape drive?
>
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7_mfdfUIAMcTly.jpg
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
> http://www.nf6x.net/

As Al said, Kennedy 9000.
Slide the test buttons door panel upwards on the top left and all will be revealed :)

I racked one of these a fortnight ago. BTW If the old rubber rings one the hubs are too
expanded and won't allow a tape reel to slide on, just replace with a # BS336 O-ring
from a bearings/seals/gasket shop. These are cheap, readily available and takes seconds
to install for a perfect fit.

Steve.


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat Jun  1 19:25:13 2019
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 17:25:13 -0700
Subject: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID
In-Reply-To: <546c1791b1da447c35f3ce2d725d6872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
 <546c1791b1da447c35f3ce2d725d6872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <8FD8E3F1-805E-4D60-A2AA-4C0AAA659D4E@nf6x.net>



> On Jun 1, 2019, at 4:22 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> BTW If the old rubber rings one the hubs are too
> expanded and won't allow a tape reel to slide on, just replace with a # BS336 O-ring
> from a bearings/seals/gasket shop. These are cheap, readily available and takes seconds
> to install for a perfect fit.

Thanks! That's bound to be helpful advice... if not now, then someday in the future.

-- 
Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sun Jun  2 03:12:18 2019
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 08:12:18 +0000
Subject: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID
In-Reply-To: <D09BFB60-EA96-4603-86DF-6E88834ECDAE@nf6x.net>
References: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
 <1bfd80e3-8245-0f26-c075-b205edc9c09e@bitsavers.org>
 <490013e8-4d74-598a-6a7d-d8fed801faa3@bitsavers.org>
 <3FAD97F3-FADD-4F26-88F3-B80C11982EE2@nf6x.net>
 <c83dc9fc-43dd-995f-f1de-4d8d8ef914b5@thereinhardts.org>,
 <D09BFB60-EA96-4603-86DF-6E88834ECDAE@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <AM4PR0902MB1748D515BB3DC00368C9105E861B0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>



Van: Mark J. Blair via cctalk<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: zondag 2 juni 2019 00:25
Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: Re: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID

> On Jun 1, 2019, at 14:57, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Is this the system that was on Reddit?

Yes. I?ll be fetching it next weekend. I?m excited! I wonder if the hard drive is still usable, and if there is anything interesting on it?

By a chance meeting with my neighbor today, I learned he has a bunch of pallet racking from a defunct business he emptied out. He offered that I could go grab some for myself. He also mentioned that he planned to bring some to his farm next door to me before he sells off the rest. Since I?m planning to rent a truck next weekend anyway, I offered to help out by hauling for both of us in exchange for taking a skim off the top of the pile. It?ll be a busy weekend!

--
Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net

Mark, you probably know ?
It is best to get a truck with a tail lift. Then you can roll the entire rack into the truck.
No hassle with disassembly and making notoes how everything was routed.
BTW, the disk drive in the bottom is *heavy*. You could lift it by yourself, but that
Is not very clever. Better lift it with two persons. The same goed for the Kennedy
tape drive ? heavy!  And the 11/34, in a 10.5? box will be heavy at the rear side
where the transformer and power supplies are.
So, disassembly will give you 3 heavy items best lifted by 2 guys. Leaving it in the
rack and pay a bit more for a truck with tail lift, is a wise decision for your back!

Regarding the rubber rings on the hubs of the tape drive, I remember that somebody
once told that when the rubber tension is weak (because the ring diameter got a bit
bigger, you can get the ring back to its original shape by putting it in warm water.
Worth a try if needed ?

Henk, PA8PDP


From steven at malikoff.com  Sun Jun  2 04:23:16 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 19:23:16 +1000
Subject: 9-Track Magtape Drive ID
In-Reply-To: <AM4PR0902MB1748D515BB3DC00368C9105E861B0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
References: <F1C70AB5-5DAF-411C-9B72-8097CB518E64@nf6x.net>
 <1bfd80e3-8245-0f26-c075-b205edc9c09e@bitsavers.org>
 <490013e8-4d74-598a-6a7d-d8fed801faa3@bitsavers.org>
 <3FAD97F3-FADD-4F26-88F3-B80C11982EE2@nf6x.net>
 <c83dc9fc-43dd-995f-f1de-4d8d8ef914b5@thereinhardts.org>,
 <D09BFB60-EA96-4603-86DF-6E88834ECDAE@nf6x.net>
 <AM4PR0902MB1748D515BB3DC00368C9105E861B0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <ed736a834784da1633ad18004a577a51.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Henk said
> Regarding the rubber rings on the hubs of the tape drive, I remember that somebody
> once told that when the rubber tension is weak (because the ring diameter got a bit
> bigger, you can get the ring back to its original shape by putting it in warm water.

I tried this. It didn't work, at all. I had a few sizes of nitrile O-rings I use for
another purpose (micro lathe drive belts) and tried a range, the BS336 as mentioned
worked perfectly. It may perhaps work for other brands of tape unit if the hub pinch
clamp arrangement is the same diameter but that is for someone else to try.

Steve.


From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com  Sun Jun  2 13:34:04 2019
From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 13:34:04 -0500
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <20190529111703.21A5718C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190529111703.21A5718C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHnoH6zB0i5Y0GfzJ0tdCaJ7tEBW9_FzEmvci7uTtQWcSZA8LQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for the break, finals at school have been a little crazy. For
simplicity of testing I have switched back to the M8017-AA instead of the
M8043. The both are behaving in the exact same manner, so I am not ruling
out the idea that the CPU is at fault just yet.

On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 6:17 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I suppose it would be worth while checking BDALn, BSYNC and BDIN _on the
> console card_ (I'm not sure where he was looking at them, before) just to
> rule out the broken bus line possibility.
>

I took a look on them, all of the signals make it into the card

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 9:08 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

> Hey, I have some extra console cards; probably the best thing to do at
> this point is to send you a known working (i.e. tested) one. You can
> then send me back your broken (maybe?) card - I don't mind getting a
> broken one in trade, I can amuse myself fixing it.
>
> If you'd like to try this, let me know your mailing address, and I'll
> get a tested card off to you (once the tree craziness dies down).
>
> Sorry you're not up and running yet... :-(
>
>       Noel
>

Thanks for the offer, but I think I can diagnose if the card is working
properly pretty easily. Looking at the schematics for the M8017, the BRPLY
signal is generated by the 4 DC005 and DC004 (or DC003, I can't remember)
chip. The bank of DC005 chips compare the address coming in with the
address defined by the jumpers, and the DC004 takes some of the other
signals on the backplane and combine the MATCH signal from the DC005s to
generate the BRPLY signal. I should be able to find if the correct signals
are coming in by looking at my logic analyzer, and then use that to see if
the DC005s are generating the MATCH signal.

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Jun  2 14:04:23 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 12:04:23 -0700
Subject: Audio Devices, Inc. company history?
Message-ID: <5004a3c9-f8e5-a998-af76-4b4387c545f3@sydex.com>

I've got a few old reels of milk-chocolate brown 7-track tape here and
was wondering if it's possible to date them accurately.   The reels
themselves have the Audio Devices name molded into them; the rear white
flange is quite yellowed with age.  The tapes have been used quite
heavily as they've been shortened to much less than 2400'.

I know that AD and EMI had a merger agreement with Capitol on their
vinyl business around 1967 and that the result was spun off as EMI.
That leaves the tape business.  It seems that CDC acquired some or all
of AD in 1969, but I can find no details.

Does anyone remember these folks?  They used to be *the* major tape
supplier in the USA.

--Chuck

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Jun  2 14:26:34 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 12:26:34 -0700
Subject: Audio Devices, Inc. company history?
In-Reply-To: <5004a3c9-f8e5-a998-af76-4b4387c545f3@sydex.com>
References: <5004a3c9-f8e5-a998-af76-4b4387c545f3@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <96fb3644-d14e-15ad-2e32-9e0a181ab1a7@bitsavers.org>



On 6/2/19 12:04 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> Does anyone remember these folks?

I only have one reel of audiotape, and that has a tag of
being cleaned in 1968. I couldn't find any other chocolate brown
oxide tapes with dates later than that. Maybe they died off
with the switch to 800bpi (coercivity change with the darker
formula)?




From spectre at floodgap.com  Sun Jun  2 22:36:21 2019
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 20:36:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: updates to the Alpha Micro Phun Machine
Message-ID: <201906030336.x533aLqR22347812@floodgap.com>

Besides link cleanups and custodial changes, there is now a model-specific
page for the Eagle 450, one of the earliest ColdFire systems extant, plus
performance statistics for many of the machines and several more newly uploaded
freeware games. Hosted on an Alpha Micro Eagle 300.

	http://ampm.floodgap.com/

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one. -- Phil White --------

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Jun  3 00:58:04 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 22:58:04 -0700
Subject: Audio Devices, Inc. company history?
In-Reply-To: <96fb3644-d14e-15ad-2e32-9e0a181ab1a7@bitsavers.org>
References: <5004a3c9-f8e5-a998-af76-4b4387c545f3@sydex.com>
 <96fb3644-d14e-15ad-2e32-9e0a181ab1a7@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <acbab20a-6d27-3049-3bc1-905af13d3f29@sydex.com>

I had a look at a couple of additional reels of Audio Devices tape from
1965 and 1966.  Both were darker and labeled with an "Certified for 800
bpi" sticker and well as a "Heavy Duty Made with 1.5 mil DuPont Mylar".

I'm concluding that the tape in question is pretty darned old.

--Chuck

From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch  Mon Jun  3 06:06:37 2019
From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 13:06:37 +0200
Subject: Core memory single-core datasheet
Message-ID: <ac4f675c-f998-cf02-91c2-d40e2ee32635@greenmail.ch>


Not that I  expect anyone to have a need for it, but just for the heck of it :

here are a few datasheets for single cores ( From a Philips Databook 1973 )

ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/Cores/CoreMemory_core_datasheet.pdf

Enjoy..

Jos


From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Jun  3 09:48:20 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 07:48:20 -0700
Subject: Audio Devices, Inc. company history?
In-Reply-To: <acbab20a-6d27-3049-3bc1-905af13d3f29@sydex.com>
References: <5004a3c9-f8e5-a998-af76-4b4387c545f3@sydex.com>
 <96fb3644-d14e-15ad-2e32-9e0a181ab1a7@bitsavers.org>
 <acbab20a-6d27-3049-3bc1-905af13d3f29@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <fdd35ee0-23c8-364f-11c4-bcd07c376aec@bitsavers.org>



On 6/2/19 10:58 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> I had a look at a couple of additional reels of Audio Devices tape from
> 1965 and 1966.  Both were darker and labeled with an "Certified for 800
> bpi" sticker and well as a "Heavy Duty Made with 1.5 mil DuPont Mylar".
> 
> I'm concluding that the tape in question is pretty darned old.
> 

I think so too.

I uploaded the specification for IBM's 200bpi tape from 1960.
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/magtape/IBM_Magnetic_Tape_Specifications_200BPI_Sep1960.jpg

Coercivity is specified as no more than 280 oersteds.


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Jun  3 11:59:38 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 11:59:38 -0500
Subject: COMX-35
In-Reply-To: <02ed01d5189e$25bf6fa0$713e4ee0$@slor.net>
References: <02ed01d5189e$25bf6fa0$713e4ee0$@slor.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkH7XvWvs5ztzSY88gqGZm6w2zoT0NM7WbamWRkC42o3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 12:19 PM James Wilkinson via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Anyone happen to have one for sale/trade?

I do not, but it sounds like a fun machine.  I have lots of 1802 stuff
but not that one.

-ethan

From couryhouse at aol.com  Mon Jun  3 12:46:50 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 17:46:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?We_are_looking=C2=A0_to_buy=C2=A0_RCA=C2=A0_VP3501_keyboar?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?d=C2=A0_or=C2=A0_any=C2=A0_of=C2=A0_the=C2=A0_3?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?000=C2=A0_data_term=C2=A0_=C2=A0items?=
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkH7XvWvs5ztzSY88gqGZm6w2zoT0NM7WbamWRkC42o3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02ed01d5189e$25bf6fa0$713e4ee0$@slor.net>
 <CAALmimkH7XvWvs5ztzSY88gqGZm6w2zoT0NM7WbamWRkC42o3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <767588738.8194226.1559584010581@mail.yahoo.com>

We are looking? to buy? RCA? VP3501 keyboard? or? any? of? the? 3000? data term? ?items? please? drop us? a? line? off list ( and art material? photos? posters? etc? too? ?to? add to display as well as? hardware)

Thanks? Ed Sharpe archivist? for SMECC


In a message dated 6/3/2019 9:59:54 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:
On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 12:19 PM James Wilkinson via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Anyone happen to have one for sale/trade?

I do not, but it sounds like a fun machine.? I have lots of 1802 stuff
but not that one.

-ethan

From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com  Mon Jun  3 12:59:58 2019
From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 18:59:58 +0100
Subject: COMX-35
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkH7XvWvs5ztzSY88gqGZm6w2zoT0NM7WbamWRkC42o3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02ed01d5189e$25bf6fa0$713e4ee0$@slor.net>
 <CAALmimkH7XvWvs5ztzSY88gqGZm6w2zoT0NM7WbamWRkC42o3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ED500B0-1AC3-4471-818C-2DD9E9C00EA7@gmail.com>


> On 3 Jun 2019, at 17:59, Ethan Dicks via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 12:19 PM James Wilkinson via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> Anyone happen to have one for sale/trade?
> 
> I do not, but it sounds like a fun machine.  I have lots of 1802 stuff
> but not that one.
> 
> -ethan


I know of some for sale in The Netherlands, they?re NOS and don?t have a power supply, last price I saw them at was ?350. This is why I haven?t bought one :) 

-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection?
t: @binarydinosaurs    f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk





From tosteve at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  3 18:10:08 2019
From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 23:10:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Anyone live near Walnut Creek, CA?
References: <1079535630.8348700.1559603408240.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1079535630.8348700.1559603408240@mail.yahoo.com>

There's a weird Sord M23P (I think) from the early 80's at this elderly persons house in Walnut Creek, CA - East of the bay.
 She can't pack and ship it - it's too big and heavy. It was actually sent to her by mistake, it was supposed to be sent to my house, 500 miles away.
It's nothing rare or valuable - you can actually have it if you go and pick it up - I really just want it out of her house.
Let me know!
Steve




From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Jun  3 19:33:18 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 18:33:18 -0600
Subject: Anyone live near Walnut Creek, CA?
In-Reply-To: <1079535630.8348700.1559603408240@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1079535630.8348700.1559603408240.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1079535630.8348700.1559603408240@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ce8c8013-1761-1b77-5e84-940c37017923@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/3/19 5:10 PM, steven stengel via cctalk wrote:
> I really just want it out of her house.

You might be able to find a resale shop that will pick up items 
(donations) from peoples houses.

Many of them around my house will come pick up if there's enough to be 
worth their time.  I'd be willing to bet that you can get a manager of 
such a place to authorize picking something up even if there's not 
enough for a normal trip.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com  Mon Jun  3 19:39:38 2019
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 19:39:38 -0500
Subject: Anyone live near Walnut Creek, CA?
In-Reply-To: <ce8c8013-1761-1b77-5e84-940c37017923@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <1079535630.8348700.1559603408240.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1079535630.8348700.1559603408240@mail.yahoo.com>
 <ce8c8013-1761-1b77-5e84-940c37017923@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <5B55B280-F524-4846-8431-FE907B333345@gmail.com>


On Jun 3, 2019, at 7:33 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:

> On 6/3/19 5:10 PM, steven stengel via cctalk wrote:
>> I really just want it out of her house.
> 
> You might be able to find a resale shop that will pick up items (donations) from peoples houses.
> 
> Many of them around my house will come pick up if there's enough to be worth their time.  I'd be willing to bet that you can get a manager of such a place to authorize picking something up even if there's not enough for a normal trip.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die

Not to pry too deeply, but is there a reason she can't seal the box back up and write your forwarding address on it? It seems all the major carriers will do front-door pickups these days. -C

From bobalan at sbcglobal.net  Mon Jun  3 21:37:17 2019
From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 19:37:17 -0700
Subject: Anyone live near Walnut Creek, CA?
In-Reply-To: <1079535630.8348700.1559603408240@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1079535630.8348700.1559603408240.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1079535630.8348700.1559603408240@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5681cbee-a27c-d4af-aced-d9e4c9029681@sbcglobal.net>

On 6/3/2019 4:10 PM, steven stengel via cctalk wrote:
> There's a weird Sord M23P (I think) from the early 80's at this elderly persons house in Walnut Creek, CA - East of the bay.
>   She can't pack and ship it - it's too big and heavy. It was actually sent to her by mistake, it was supposed to be sent to my house, 500 miles away.
> It's nothing rare or valuable - you can actually have it if you go and pick it up - I really just want it out of her house.
> Let me know!
> Steve
>
Many UPS and FedEx stores will pick stuff up and pack and ship it for 
you. Just an idea...

Bob

-- 
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Jun  3 21:27:47 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 22:27:47 -0400
Subject: setting reply to in VMS 5.x MAIL
Message-ID: <CABGJBud8yrk0rwRANTzG=YwqNauNPotbXY97nizvhwLdEJA-jw@mail.gmail.com>

Is there a way to set the reply-to value in VMS 5 mail?  I want to send
mail as SYSTEM but anyone who receives the message on the outside world who
wants to reply I'd like it go to to a different email address.

I am working to solve the problem myself, but if anyone knows already and
can help save me the time :-)

Thanks

Bill

From cramcram at gmail.com  Mon Jun  3 23:54:24 2019
From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 21:54:24 -0700
Subject: Help with TCBASX and TCRANX (PDP8/OS8/TC08)
Message-ID: <CAC20j8RRzz_KxdSOffrgtPvoKHchE+qUr2eqDtgSk=hbdi9fDw@mail.gmail.com>

How do you run TCBASX.DG (TC01 Basic Exerciser) and TCRANX.DG (TC01 Random
Exerciser)?

When I run TCBASX.DG it almost immediately halts.  Pressing makes the TC08
controller lights grind but no tape motion.  TCRANX.DG is basically the
same.

Is there any documentation for these two programs?

Thanks,

Marc Howard

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 02:32:30 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 08:32:30 +0100
Subject: setting reply to in VMS 5.x MAIL
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBud8yrk0rwRANTzG=YwqNauNPotbXY97nizvhwLdEJA-jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBud8yrk0rwRANTzG=YwqNauNPotbXY97nizvhwLdEJA-jw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011101d51aa7$ab525d20$01f71760$@gmail.com>

Bill,
Pretty sure in the past the only way to do this was with PMDF. Not sure if PMDF is available with a hobbyist licence or will run on 5.x
Dave
G4UGM

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via
> cctech
> Sent: 04 June 2019 03:28
> To: cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: setting reply to in VMS 5.x MAIL
> 
> Is there a way to set the reply-to value in VMS 5 mail?  I want to send mail as
> SYSTEM but anyone who receives the message on the outside world who
> wants to reply I'd like it go to to a different email address.
> 
> I am working to solve the problem myself, but if anyone knows already and
> can help save me the time :-)
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Bill


From rick at rickmurphy.net  Tue Jun  4 04:30:13 2019
From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 05:30:13 -0400
Subject: Help with TCBASX and TCRANX (PDP8/OS8/TC08)
In-Reply-To: <CAC20j8RRzz_KxdSOffrgtPvoKHchE+qUr2eqDtgSk=hbdi9fDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20j8RRzz_KxdSOffrgtPvoKHchE+qUr2eqDtgSk=hbdi9fDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fcd89a53-e91e-70b2-dac6-1dc0e419d14a@rickmurphy.net>

On 6/4/2019 12:54 AM, Marc Howard via cctech wrote:
> How do you run TCBASX.DG (TC01 Basic Exerciser) and TCRANX.DG (TC01 Random
> Exerciser)?
>
> When I run TCBASX.DG it almost immediately halts.  Pressing makes the TC08
> controller lights grind but no tape motion.  TCRANX.DG is basically the
> same.
>
> Is there any documentation for these two programs?

Searching for "TC01 Basic Exerciser" finds that this was originally 
called "MAINDEC-08-D3BB".

Search for that finds 
https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decpdp8dia_3375676

The random exerciser is MAINDEC-08-D3RA.

There's apparently some YouTube videos of those diags in operation that 
might be of interest.
 ??? -Rick


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Tue Jun  4 05:05:40 2019
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2019 11:05:40 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: setting reply to in VMS 5.x MAIL
In-Reply-To: <011101d51aa7$ab525d20$01f71760$@gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBud8yrk0rwRANTzG=YwqNauNPotbXY97nizvhwLdEJA-jw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01R7GZXYL8W48WWZWK@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> Bill,
> Pretty sure in the past the only way to do this was with PMDF. Not sure if PMDF is available with a hobbyist licence or will run on 5.x
> Dave
> G4UGM
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via
> > cctech
> > Sent: 04 June 2019 03:28
> > To: cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: setting reply to in VMS 5.x MAIL
> > 
> > Is there a way to set the reply-to value in VMS 5 mail?  I want to send mail as
> > SYSTEM but anyone who receives the message on the outside world who
> > wants to reply I'd like it go to to a different email address.
> > 
> > I am working to solve the problem myself, but if anyone knows already and
> > can help save me the time :-)
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > Bill
>

VMS MAIL has no concept of reply-to headers.  If a "foreign mail protocol"
is being used from within VMS MAIL (in%, pmdf%, mx%, or smtp% for example),
that protocol may provide a way of setting a reply-to header, typically by
defining a specified logical name before running VMS MAIL.

If PMDF is installed, you can use

$ PMDF MAIL /REPLY_TO=address

and possibly other methods to set the reply-to address.  PMDF MAIL is
designed to be upwardly compatible with VMS MAIL and uses the same mailbox
files as VMS MAIL.

There is a hobbyist license available for PMDF but I don't know if this covers
versions that will run on VMS 5.x or not.

Installing PMDF also makes the in% (or pmdf%) foreign mail protocol usable
from VMS MAIL.  mx% is provided by Hunter Goatley's MX MAIL package and smtp%
is provided by Process Software's Multinet SMTP client to add SMTP capability
to VMS MAIL.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu  Tue Jun  4 11:32:08 2019
From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 16:32:08 +0000
Subject: AlphaServer ES47 in Portland
Message-ID: <MWHPR03MB2800492EC7B61CDB2D5D7F56E4150@MWHPR03MB2800.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Anyone in the general vicinity of Portland interested in an AlphaServer ES47, for approximately $500 obo?



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue Jun  4 11:43:16 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 12:43:16 -0400
Subject: AlphaServer ES47 in Portland
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR03MB2800492EC7B61CDB2D5D7F56E4150@MWHPR03MB2800.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR03MB2800492EC7B61CDB2D5D7F56E4150@MWHPR03MB2800.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <891D1418-300B-43B3-AB63-BBB4C6BB099C@comcast.net>



> On Jun 4, 2019, at 12:32 PM, Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Anyone in the general vicinity of Portland interested in an AlphaServer ES47, for approximately $500 obo?

Which Portland?

	paul


From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu  Tue Jun  4 11:43:44 2019
From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 16:43:44 +0000
Subject: AlphaServer ES47 in Portland
In-Reply-To: <891D1418-300B-43B3-AB63-BBB4C6BB099C@comcast.net>
References: <MWHPR03MB2800492EC7B61CDB2D5D7F56E4150@MWHPR03MB2800.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>,
 <891D1418-300B-43B3-AB63-BBB4C6BB099C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <MWHPR03MB2800DC660919502460C9FD7FE4150@MWHPR03MB2800.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Oregon


________________________________
From: Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 9:43 AM
To: Benjamin Huntsman; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: AlphaServer ES47 in Portland



> On Jun 4, 2019, at 12:32 PM, Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Anyone in the general vicinity of Portland interested in an AlphaServer ES47, for approximately $500 obo?

Which Portland?

        paul


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 12:06:08 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 13:06:08 -0400
Subject: setting reply to in VMS 5.x MAIL
In-Reply-To: <01R7GZXYL8W48WWZWK@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <CABGJBud8yrk0rwRANTzG=YwqNauNPotbXY97nizvhwLdEJA-jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <011101d51aa7$ab525d20$01f71760$@gmail.com>
 <01R7GZXYL8W48WWZWK@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <CABGJBue-6UKrSMswAc2otE+DHyPFu+JM0SMfQaNZJcZf8bq-6Q@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> > > To: cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> > > Subject: setting reply to in VMS 5.x MAIL
> > >
> > > Is there a way to set the reply-to value in VMS 5 mail?  I want to
> send mail as
> > > SYSTEM but anyone who receives the message on the outside world who
> > > wants to reply I'd like it go to to a different email address.
> > >
> > > I am working to solve the problem myself, but if anyone knows already
> and
> > > can help save me the time :-)
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Bill
> >
>
> VMS MAIL has no concept of reply-to headers.  If a "foreign mail protocol"
> is being used from within VMS MAIL (in%, pmdf%, mx%, or smtp% for example),
> that protocol may provide a way of setting a reply-to header, typically by
> defining a specified logical name before running VMS MAIL.
>


> <snip>
> ... smtp%
> is provided by Process Software's Multinet SMTP client to add SMTP
> capability
> to VMS MAIL.
>
>
>
Peter

I have Multinet SMTP and when I send a message externally I use

SMTP%"bill at myemail.net"

I looked within MULTINET and was able to edit the gateway rules but I did
not see how to define a reply-to from the config menu.  I want the replies
to emails generated by the VMS Mail server go through an external email
server as a way to control SMTP hijacking.

for example, if I log in as SYSTEM and send a message to someone it shows
up as
SYSTEM at MICROVAX3100.VINTAGECOMPUTER.NET     (the subdomain I have set for
the server)

I have the system blocking mail unless it comes from a single address (not
listed here), which then forwards to the SYSTEM account.  The MULTINET
server is set to only accept SMTP from the one domain I have set up for
this purpose.

So when someone replies to an email from the server I don't want the reply
to come from the actual sender or it will bounce.  I want it to
automatically reply-to the alias domain I have in place.    Works great
except that a person needs to know to change the reply-to address to the
alias.

You showed me this:
$ MULTINET CONFIGURE /SERVERS
> SERVER-CONFIG> DISABLE SMTP
> SERVER-CONFIG> RESTART

...is there a SERVER-CONFIG that defines reply-to?

Bill

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 12:09:41 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 13:09:41 -0400
Subject: setting reply to in VMS 5.x MAIL
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBue-6UKrSMswAc2otE+DHyPFu+JM0SMfQaNZJcZf8bq-6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBud8yrk0rwRANTzG=YwqNauNPotbXY97nizvhwLdEJA-jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <011101d51aa7$ab525d20$01f71760$@gmail.com>
 <01R7GZXYL8W48WWZWK@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CABGJBue-6UKrSMswAc2otE+DHyPFu+JM0SMfQaNZJcZf8bq-6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudv=04pz39x+d8ULd0by76RJBgk7820+EHQdyhEZ6j9BQ@mail.gmail.com>

<snip>
correction to my earlier wording:

>
> So when someone replies to an email from the server I don't want the reply
> to come from the actual sender or it will bounce.
>
<snip>

I mean I don't want the reply to go directly to the original sender email
address (SYSTEM at MICROVAX3100.vintagecomputer.net), I want the reply to go
to SYSTEM at aliasdomain.com and I want this address to appear in the header
of the email message.

Bil

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Tue Jun  4 12:29:03 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 11:29:03 -0600
Subject: setting reply to in VMS 5.x MAIL
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudv=04pz39x+d8ULd0by76RJBgk7820+EHQdyhEZ6j9BQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBud8yrk0rwRANTzG=YwqNauNPotbXY97nizvhwLdEJA-jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <011101d51aa7$ab525d20$01f71760$@gmail.com>
 <01R7GZXYL8W48WWZWK@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CABGJBue-6UKrSMswAc2otE+DHyPFu+JM0SMfQaNZJcZf8bq-6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudv=04pz39x+d8ULd0by76RJBgk7820+EHQdyhEZ6j9BQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <180560ff-d88a-1cba-d628-14883800e3b1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/4/19 11:09 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> I mean I don't want the reply to go directly to the original sender email 
> address (SYSTEM at MICROVAX3100.vintagecomputer.net), I want the reply to 
> go to SYSTEM at aliasdomain.com and I want this address to appear in the 
> header of the email message.

This is not an answer to your original question, but it might be a work 
around.

Can you set MX records for the microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net domain 
to route mail to the system hosting the aliasdomain.com domain?

Obviously the system hosting the aliasdomain.com domain would also need 
to be configured to host (likely relay for) the 
microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net domain.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 12:37:44 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 13:37:44 -0400
Subject: setting reply to in VMS 5.x MAIL
In-Reply-To: <180560ff-d88a-1cba-d628-14883800e3b1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CABGJBud8yrk0rwRANTzG=YwqNauNPotbXY97nizvhwLdEJA-jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <011101d51aa7$ab525d20$01f71760$@gmail.com>
 <01R7GZXYL8W48WWZWK@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CABGJBue-6UKrSMswAc2otE+DHyPFu+JM0SMfQaNZJcZf8bq-6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudv=04pz39x+d8ULd0by76RJBgk7820+EHQdyhEZ6j9BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <180560ff-d88a-1cba-d628-14883800e3b1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufT87HWKnatBGvHgpE6vnAiccDhpRyuk-aiNFqM4RvPwA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 1:29 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 6/4/19 11:09 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> > I mean I don't want the reply to go directly to the original sender
> email
> > address (SYSTEM at MICROVAX3100.vintagecomputer.net), I want the reply to
> > go to SYSTEM at aliasdomain.com and I want this address to appear in the
> > header of the email message.
>
> This is not an answer to your original question, but it might be a work
> around.
>
> Can you set MX records for the microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net domain
> to route mail to the system hosting the aliasdomain.com domain?
>
> Obviously the system hosting the aliasdomain.com domain would also need
> to be configured to host (likely relay for) the
> microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net domain.
>
>
>
Grant,
I did not think of that, your suggestion might work!  Good idea.
Bill

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 13:12:59 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 11:12:59 -0700
Subject: AlphaServer ES47 in Portland
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR03MB2800492EC7B61CDB2D5D7F56E4150@MWHPR03MB2800.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR03MB2800492EC7B61CDB2D5D7F56E4150@MWHPR03MB2800.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLMny2dZoX3pjdxjDKpmTxoyc9BJ9Yq80XCUuAJ=aRseQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 9:32 AM Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Anyone in the general vicinity of Portland interested in an AlphaServer ES47, for approximately $500 obo?

Sure, I'd sell a two box 4 processor AlphaServer ES47 for $500 obo in
Seattle, which is within driving distance of Portland.

Oh, you mean buy one, not sell one. Nevermind. :)

Neat and one of the fastest AlphaServers you could get before Alphas
disappeared, but big, heavy, and loud.

From useddec at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 13:24:58 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 13:24:58 -0500
Subject: off topic- Hitachi V-1950F(R) and Nicolet 3091storage scope available
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNUbph36Cvo7CZCpGy5CCRmMWBnj7a6pGbiUP=+jhAdqg@mail.gmail.com>

Both have manuals, and pics are available. Possibly a few Tek scopes also..

Please contact me off list with any questions or offers.

Thanks, Paul

From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu  Tue Jun  4 14:50:48 2019
From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 19:50:48 +0000
Subject: AlphaServer ES47 in Portland
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLMny2dZoX3pjdxjDKpmTxoyc9BJ9Yq80XCUuAJ=aRseQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <MWHPR03MB2800492EC7B61CDB2D5D7F56E4150@MWHPR03MB2800.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>,
 <CAM2UOwLMny2dZoX3pjdxjDKpmTxoyc9BJ9Yq80XCUuAJ=aRseQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BECA1461-2C2D-4F66-9218-A61F11678D86@mail2.cu-portland.edu>

Actually, it?s tons of fun and was kinda one of my dream systems.  The system architecture is interesting and I have the NAT box to go with it and everything.  It has some fibre cards and a Gigabit Ethernet card too.

It?s very loud at startup, but it?s tolerable once it calms down.  Less noisy than my 1U Cisco fibre channel switch.  

I don?t really want to sell it, but I will be moving soon, and as you pointed out, it is quite heavy.  Somewhere around 125 lbs.  

-Ben

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 4, 2019, at 11:13 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 9:32 AM Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Anyone in the general vicinity of Portland interested in an AlphaServer ES47, for approximately $500 obo?
> 
> Sure, I'd sell a two box 4 processor AlphaServer ES47 for $500 obo in
> Seattle, which is within driving distance of Portland.
> 
> Oh, you mean buy one, not sell one. Nevermind. :)
> 
> Neat and one of the fastest AlphaServers you could get before Alphas
> disappeared, but big, heavy, and loud.

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Tue Jun  4 12:40:18 2019
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2019 18:40:18 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: setting reply to in VMS 5.x MAIL
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBue-6UKrSMswAc2otE+DHyPFu+JM0SMfQaNZJcZf8bq-6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBud8yrk0rwRANTzG=YwqNauNPotbXY97nizvhwLdEJA-jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <011101d51aa7$ab525d20$01f71760$@gmail.com>
 <01R7GZXYL8W48WWZWK@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <01R7HG7RUVKM8WWZWK@beyondthepale.ie>

> >
> >
> > > > To: cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> > > > Subject: setting reply to in VMS 5.x MAIL
> > > >
> > > > Is there a way to set the reply-to value in VMS 5 mail?  I want to
> > send mail as
> > > > SYSTEM but anyone who receives the message on the outside world who
> > > > wants to reply I'd like it go to to a different email address.
> > > >
> > > > I am working to solve the problem myself, but if anyone knows already
> > and
> > > > can help save me the time :-)
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > >
> >
> > VMS MAIL has no concept of reply-to headers.  If a "foreign mail protocol"
> > is being used from within VMS MAIL (in%, pmdf%, mx%, or smtp% for example),
> > that protocol may provide a way of setting a reply-to header, typically by
> > defining a specified logical name before running VMS MAIL.
> >
> 
> 
> > <snip>
> > ... smtp%
> > is provided by Process Software's Multinet SMTP client to add SMTP
> > capability
> > to VMS MAIL.
> >
> >
> >
> Peter
> 
> I have Multinet SMTP and when I send a message externally I use
> 
> SMTP%"bill at myemail.net"
> 
> I looked within MULTINET and was able to edit the gateway rules but I did
> not see how to define a reply-to from the config menu.  I want the replies
> to emails generated by the VMS Mail server go through an external email
> server as a way to control SMTP hijacking.
> 
> for example, if I log in as SYSTEM and send a message to someone it shows
> up as
> SYSTEM at MICROVAX3100.VINTAGECOMPUTER.NET     (the subdomain I have set for
> the server)
> 
> I have the system blocking mail unless it comes from a single address (not
> listed here), which then forwards to the SYSTEM account.  The MULTINET
> server is set to only accept SMTP from the one domain I have set up for
> this purpose.
> 
> So when someone replies to an email from the server I don't want the reply
> to come from the actual sender or it will bounce.  I want it to
> automatically reply-to the alias domain I have in place.    Works great
> except that a person needs to know to change the reply-to address to the
> alias.
> 
> You showed me this:
> $ MULTINET CONFIGURE /SERVERS
> > SERVER-CONFIG> DISABLE SMTP
> > SERVER-CONFIG> RESTART
> 
> ...is there a SERVER-CONFIG that defines reply-to?
> 

Bill,

I dumped everything in my head about this topic into my previous email.  At
some stage, you need to pick up the manual (or download it from the Process
Software website) and read it.

I looked in the Multinet 4.3 Users Guide and found "Reply-to" in the index
referring me to page 8-10 in the Administrators Guide.  There I found:

Quote:

Specifying the REPLY_TO Header

The MULTINET_SMTP_REPLY_TO logical name lets you specify the value for the
RFC822 REPLY-TO: header.  For example to set your Reply-To: header to 
FNORD at FLOWERS.COM, use the command:

$ DEFINE MULTINET_SMTP_REPLY_TO "FNORD at FLOWERS.COM"

This logical name only affects mail agents that use the SMTP% interface (for
example OpenVMS and DECWindows mail).

Endquote.

In case it is not clear, you should define this logical name in DCL before you
run VMS MAIL and it will then apply when you send mail to an address prefixed
by SMTP%.

I will add that you could probably use DEFINE /SYSTEM if you want this to
apply to all users on the system or you could put the command in a users
login.com if you only want it to apply to that particular user.  If you
want to get really fancy, you can use lexical functions such as for example
F$GETJPI(0, "USERNAME") to come up with a single logical name definition that
will work correctly for any user on the system without modification.

I used the Multinet 4.3 manual because it happened to be handy.  I imagine
the same applies any later version of Multinet and might also apply to some
but not all earlier versions.

I will also repeat the warning that I often give, that the SMTP mail interface
provided with Multinet is functional but not comprehensive.  My feeling is that
it is mainly there to be able to tick the box that says that SMTP is supported.
If you want a top class email setup, you should install PMDF, from the same
company.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From jim.manley at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 15:18:22 2019
From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 14:18:22 -0600
Subject: AlphaServer ES47 in Portland
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR03MB2800492EC7B61CDB2D5D7F56E4150@MWHPR03MB2800.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR03MB2800492EC7B61CDB2D5D7F56E4150@MWHPR03MB2800.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2R3iuT9fjsZrxN_awxh=VS_k=MUD7dtPLwRmSymFRLuLJ9kA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Benjamin,

I?m a high school teacher and am building up a computing lab with donated
and other items out of my own pocket.  This would be perfect, especially
with the networking hardware, as I have a few ES45s and a RAID disk array.
I?m in Montana, but, school just got out and going to the coast when it
starts getting hot here is always nice.  I will be in Vancouver, WA (not
BC, unfortunately), on 8/8 - 8/9 for a teacher professional development
event.   When do you need it to disappear?

All the Best,
Jim

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 10:32 AM Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Anyone in the general vicinity of Portland interested in an AlphaServer
> ES47, for approximately $500 obo?
>
>
>

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 15:26:13 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 15:26:13 -0500
Subject: AlphaServer ES47 in Portland
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR03MB2800492EC7B61CDB2D5D7F56E4150@MWHPR03MB2800.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR03MB2800492EC7B61CDB2D5D7F56E4150@MWHPR03MB2800.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnqDW7Sp2nkCXnEij7OHjD8qsFdnHuhh4UrcxYu=xFkQQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 11:32 AM Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Anyone in the general vicinity of Portland interested in an AlphaServer ES47, for approximately $500 obo?

That sounds like a fun system but a bit newer than I'm used to (I
think the last one I touched in the wild was an ES20 in 2003).

-ethan

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 16:19:11 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 14:19:11 -0700
Subject: AlphaServer ES47 in Portland
In-Reply-To: <BECA1461-2C2D-4F66-9218-A61F11678D86@mail2.cu-portland.edu>
References: <MWHPR03MB2800492EC7B61CDB2D5D7F56E4150@MWHPR03MB2800.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAM2UOwLMny2dZoX3pjdxjDKpmTxoyc9BJ9Yq80XCUuAJ=aRseQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BECA1461-2C2D-4F66-9218-A61F11678D86@mail2.cu-portland.edu>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLOH-33-4RW=-EoV=9BVEiU4Djyg0o81X3JKhx0asdv2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 12:50 PM Benjamin Huntsman
<BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote:
>
> I don?t really want to sell it, but I will be moving soon, and as you pointed out, it is quite heavy.  Somewhere around 125 lbs.
>

The manual says 132 pounds maximum configuration for a single 2
processor box. I imagine almost all of them would have been rack
mounted. They had a "tower" configuration, but with a 3 foot long box
that's a rather awkward shaped tower.

The interprocessor cables to connect multiple boxes together (up to
four 2 processor boxes as an 8 CPU ES80) are about an inch thick.

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 18:24:16 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 19:24:16 -0400
Subject: setting reply to in VMS 5.x MAIL
In-Reply-To: <01R7HG7RUVKM8WWZWK@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <CABGJBud8yrk0rwRANTzG=YwqNauNPotbXY97nizvhwLdEJA-jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <011101d51aa7$ab525d20$01f71760$@gmail.com>
 <01R7GZXYL8W48WWZWK@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CABGJBue-6UKrSMswAc2otE+DHyPFu+JM0SMfQaNZJcZf8bq-6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <01R7HG7RUVKM8WWZWK@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <CABGJBue=oqTzsfk4rKgWgLCZYK-PyxmBiPorLoLSwPLTdK5FNA@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Thank you very much.  I spent a while researching but I did not find the
answer in searches, I did not know to look at the MULTINET manual, I used
the online help thinking that was enough.  I will try to be more thorough.
Bill


>
> I looked in the Multinet 4.3 Users Guide and found "Reply-to" in the index
> referring me to page 8-10 in the Administrators Guide.  There I found:
>
> Quote:
>
> Specifying the REPLY_TO Header
>
> The MULTINET_SMTP_REPLY_TO logical name lets you specify the value for the
> RFC822 REPLY-TO: header.  For example to set your Reply-To: header to
> FNORD at FLOWERS.COM, use the command:
>
> $ DEFINE MULTINET_SMTP_REPLY_TO "FNORD at FLOWERS.COM"
>
> This logical name only affects mail agents that use the SMTP% interface
> (for
> example OpenVMS and DECWindows mail).
>
> Endquote.
>
> In case it is not clear, you should define this logical name in DCL before
> you
> run VMS MAIL and it will then apply when you send mail to an address
> prefixed
> by SMTP%.
>
> I will add that you could probably use DEFINE /SYSTEM if you want this to
> apply to all users on the system or you could put the command in a users
> login.com if you only want it to apply to that particular user.  If you
> want to get really fancy, you can use lexical functions such as for example
> F$GETJPI(0, "USERNAME") to come up with a single logical name definition
> that
> will work correctly for any user on the system without modification.
>
> I used the Multinet 4.3 manual because it happened to be handy.  I imagine
> the same applies any later version of Multinet and might also apply to some
> but not all earlier versions.
>
> I will also repeat the warning that I often give, that the SMTP mail
> interface
> provided with Multinet is functional but not comprehensive.  My feeling is
> that
> it is mainly there to be able to tick the box that says that SMTP is
> supported.
> If you want a top class email setup, you should install PMDF, from the same
> company.
>
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.
>

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Tue Jun  4 20:45:41 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 19:45:41 -0600
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
Message-ID: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

Does anyone have any experience working with modems that didn't include 
internal / auto dialers?

They came up in a conversation in a newsgroup and I realized that I know 
of them, but know virtually nothing about them.

I think they were separate devices, which probably means that they 
likely had separate serial ports to talk to each of them.  Did they 
support some sort of pass through?  Or did they really require two 
serial ports on the host?



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Tue Jun  4 20:49:45 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 01:49:45 +0000
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB40880D2C56411A165388B0E9ED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>

On 6/4/19 9:45 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience working with modems that didn't include 
> internal / auto dialers?
> 
> They came up in a conversation in a newsgroup and I realized that I know 
> of them, but know virtually nothing about them.
> 
> I think they were separate devices, which probably means that they 
> likely had separate serial ports to talk to each of them.? Did they 
> support some sort of pass through?? Or did they really require two 
> serial ports on the host?
> 
> 
> 

It's been a long time since I saw one (I used to have a bunch
in my collection, actually).
And not all of them were separate.  Some were ion a single box.
DEC had some and AT&T and a few third party companies.

bill


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 21:30:16 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 22:30:16 -0400
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>

On 06/04/2019 09:45 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience working with modems that didn't include
> internal / auto dialers?
>

Yes,
Novation cat, Hays, and a few others.  Dial the phone and put it in the
cradle or flip a switch.  Most of the 110/300boaud bel 101 and bell103
modems were "manual".

Keep in mins the hardware for auto dial required some for of micro and
that was a post 1974 thing for the most part.  A few before that had a
lot of TTL state machine to do that.  They obviously weren't cheap.

> They came up in a conversation in a newsgroup and I realized that I know
> of them, but know virtually nothing about them.
> 
> I think they were separate devices, which probably means that they
> likely had separate serial ports to talk to each of them.? Did they
> support some sort of pass through?? Or did they really require two
> serial ports on the host?

The dialer was often not at all as it was the human that dialed the phone.

I know of none that did both functions that required a second serial port.

For example the DEC ealy modems required the user to dial the phone and
pushing a button would connect it.  THe DEC modem had a protocal was
different from the later ATDT (Hays modems).

My first dial up was 1969, Bell 103 external to the TTY.  Later versions
had rotary dial or touch tone and the modem in the TTY stand.

My first modem was a box about 12x8x2.5 inches and it was an all analog
modem good for 110/300 baud and it required connection to the phone line
(pre-modular connector) and you dialed the various (and relatively
scarce) BBSs and when you heard the tone hit the switch that put the
modem on the phone line and you would see the carrier and data lamps
do their thing. That was 1978ish.

A modem that could dial was maybe 1983-5 or so at affordable prices
(under 300$) for 300 baud.

Allison


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 21:31:47 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 22:31:47 -0400
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=CO_zD=4Q4QveG1t5BnPHMnv=6ruEBxu_vxG41f=hKOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 9:45 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience working with modems that didn't include
> internal / auto dialers?

Yes.  I used to make and sell sync serial protocol engines (COMBOARDs)
that often were used to dial up an IBM Mainframe.  Sync modems of the
80s often did not have built-in auto-diallers.

Here's one we used to use, a Motorola UDS 801 ACU (Automatic Call Unit).

http://nwrusa.com/Networking?product_id=17371
https://www.arcelect.com/801_autodialer.PDF

I still have one on a shelf in the basement.

> I think they were separate devices, which probably means that they
> likely had separate serial ports to talk to each of them.  Did they
> support some sort of pass through?  Or did they really require two
> serial ports on the host?

Yes (though the USD 801 ACU could be controlled by a parallel port
_or_ a serial port)  In our case, our product had a sync serial port
to talk the the Host (implemented with either a COM 5025 or a Z8530).
To run the 801 ACU, we soaked up an async port on the VAX as well.

Sometime after 1990, I added V.25bis support to our product so we
could control autodialers of the day.

-ethan

From phil at ultimate.com  Tue Jun  4 21:57:16 2019
From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2019 22:57:16 -0400
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <201906050257.x552vGcU077119@ultimate.com>

See the v6 dn (IV) man page:

http://man.cat-v.org/unix-6th/4/dn

NAME
     dn - DN-11 ACU interface

DESCRIPTION
     The dn?  files are write-only.  The permissible codes are:

         0-9 dial 0-9
         :   dial *
         ;   dial #
         -   4 second delay for second dial tone
         =   end-of-number

     The entire telephone number must be presented in a single
     write system call.

     It is recommended that an end-of-number code be given even
     though not all ACU's actually require it.
....

From rickb at bensene.com  Tue Jun  4 22:10:20 2019
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 20:10:20 -0700
Subject: Catatonic Rockwell AIM-65
Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B8E9@mail.bensene.com>

Hi, all,

I recently was given a Rockwell AIM-65 single-board computer in nice physical condition, with the original keyboard and keyboard connector cable.
I've downloaded all of the documentation that I can find, and have been trying to get it running.

After doing a thorough visual inspection looking for any sign of detritus, especially anything metallic, as well as making sure all of the ICs were seated in the pretty-lame single-wipe sockets, and checking for any obviously cooked or overheated components.   

Everything looked really nice, and quite clean.  
All of the required chips were in place, and looked good, including the 6532 RIOT, 6520 PIA for the display, and two 6522 VIAs.  All of the LSI's, including the 6502, were Rockwell-made parts, with date codes all within a reasonable time of each other.   

I checked across the +5V and GND power supply connection points, and found that it wasn't shorted, another decent sign.

The machine came with all five of the ROM sockets filled with original Rockwell ROMs, including the two-ROM BASIC interpreter, the Assembler ROM, as well as the two Monitor ROMs, all installed in the sockets they should be installed in.    The machine had six 2114's (1024x4 static RAM) installed in the lower three banks of user RAM, with two of the sockets unoccupied.  I got two known good 2114's from my stock of parts and installed them in the two empty sockets, so that the machine would be in the 4K of User RAM configuration.

I understand that the machine can be powered up with only the +5V supply, but the thermal printer will show as "down", as it requires the +24V supply.  The +12/-12 supplies are also not required.   

I made sure that the RESET switch worked properly, and tested the KB/TTY and RUN/STEP switches operated properly.  I set the KB/TTY switch to KB, and the RUN/STEP switch to RUN.

I found a power supply that provides +5V at 5A, and tested it out on a dummy load to make sure it was healthy and had clean output, and it was fine.  I connected it up to the +5 and +5 Return (GND) terminals on the power supply input barrier strip, and held my breath, and switched on the power strip that the power supply was plugged into.

The result.  Absolutely nothing.
No sign of any activity on the display.
I didn't expect anything from the printer, because it didn't have its +24V power.

I left it powered for a little bit, checking for any chips that seemed unusually hot or anything else that seemed amiss, and nothing was obviously upset.   The CPU chip warmed up slightly to the touch, but wasn't at all alarming in terms of its temperature.     I pressed the RESET switch a number of times, and it made no difference.   Oh well.

I powered it off, and pulled the ROM chips out, and decided I'd pop 'em in my ROM programmer and compare them to the ROM images I'd downloaded off the net.

The two monitor ROMs verified exactly.   The Assembler ROM also verified correctly.  One of the BASIC ROMs also verified properly, but the other failed the verification.  Hmm...upon READing it into the programmer's RAM, I dumped it out, and low and behold, it read back as all 0xFF's.   Oops..  I double checked that the ROM was properly seated in the programmer's ZIF socket, and it was.  I tried READing it a number of times, and the result was always the same.  This ROM must have expired somewhere along the way.  I can blast a 2732 with the proper bits and build an adapter to make BASIC work once I get the thing running, and hope that maybe sometime I might find a good blank OTP 2532 ROM I can blast with the code, or find one already programmed somewhere.

That said, the BASIC ROMs aren't required to get the AIM-65 to "boot up" in the Monitor, nor is the assembler ROM.  I decided to set the BASIC and Assembler ROMs aside, and just re-installed the known-good monitor ROMs in the proper sockets.

I double-checked that all of the RAM chips were properly inserted in their sockets by pulling and re-inserting them, as well as the 6502, 6532, and 6522's.  The 6520 on the display board is soldered in, so no socket issues there.

I powered it up again, and verified that +5V was present on all of the chips on the board, and that was fine, with every chip showing +5 give or take +/- .02 Volts.  All of the GND pins were at 0V, with only tiny (sub-millivolt) noise on GND.

I put a big dip-clip on the 6502, and got out my trusty Tektronix 2465 scope, and figured I check some of the basic stuff, like making sure that the clock generator was running, and that the 6502 properly would generate the Phase 1 and Phase 2 clocks that the rest of the system uses, as well as looking at the address bus and data bus to see if it was doing anything.  The clock generator uses a 7474 dual flip flop, which I know have a tendency to go bad, so checking the clock was the logical first step.

I powered it up again after hooking everything up, and probing around showed that the clock generator was indeed running, and had the proper voltage levels, timing, and duty cycle.  The thought that maybe it'd be a simple fix, with a bad 7474, went out the window.  The 6502 was pumping out the proper Phase 1 and Phase 2 clock signals, and  both were very clean and within specifications.

I looked at the address 0 line, and pressed the RESET button, and it'd wiggle for a short period of time, then go high.  Hmm...   I looked at the other address lines, and while not all of them wiggled, they all ended up at logic 1 after a short period of time, as if the CPU was stuck at address 0xFFFF.   I did the same thing watching the data lines, and the symptoms were similar. 
They'd wiggle around a bit, then settle at logic 1 and stay there.

I then watched the chip select signals for the ROMs to see if they were being addressed, and indeed, the low ROM was getting selected for a short period of time, then it'd get de-selected and stay that way.  The other monitor ROM also got a short burst of select.   So...it appears that the ROMs are being addressed, at least for a short time, and the processor is likely executing the code for a short time, but something causes it to lock up.

I checked to see if any of the RAMs were being selected, and at no time during the short period of activity after a RESET did any of the chip selects on the 2114 RAMs go active.

I then checked the PIA (6520) on the display board to see if it was being selected at all.  Nope. 

Then I looked at the RIOT chip to see if it was being selected, and indeed, it is being selected during the short period of activity, but then, it goes deselected and quiet once the CPU settles in at 0xFFFF on the address lines.  

It appears that the address decoding circuitry is at least mostly functional, as the ROMs, PIA, and RIOT are being addressed.  It's not exactly 100% sure that the address decoding stuff is working as it should, though.

I thought that perhaps there might be something up with the 6502.  
I have a Commodore VIC-20 that works fine, and it has an original MOS 6502 in a socket, so I opened up the VIC-20, pulled the 6502 from its socket, and popped it in place of the Rockwell 6502 in the AIM-65.

The behavior was identical.  So, I'm pretty sure that the Rockwell 6502 is good.   I should have popped the Rockwell 6502 in the VIC-20 and tested it that way, but didn't want to fuss with hooking the VIC 20 up to an old TV. 

I pulled all of the 2114 RAMs out, and popped them into an old calculator that I have that uses 2114 RAMs, and tested them out this way.  The calculator ran just fine with the chips from the AIM-65 in place.   I'd figure a bad RAM would likely cause the calculator to malfunction in some way.  Not a thorough test, but enough of a test to validate that none of the RAMS were dragging the address or data busses down, and that they did properly do reads and writes.

So, with all that said (sorry, I am verbose), I'm kind of at a loss as to what to do next to try to figure out what is wrong with the machine.   Does anyone out there have any suggestions?  I have a couple of spare 6522 VIA chips, but these shouldn't really be accessed unless the printer is trying to be accessed (which it might be during initialization at least), and the other VIA is for  external interface use...and is probably initialized by the ROM, but neither of them should really be actively accessed other than a short burst of initialization.   I could swap in my spare 6522's to see if it makes any difference, but I doubt it would make any.

The unknown is the 6532 RIOT chip.   I pulled up some data on the chip, and it appears to be a combination of a PIA (like 6520), 128 bytes of RAM (hmm...), and a programmable interval timer.  I don't have any spares for this chip, so I can't just substitute in another chip and see if it makes a difference.  The RIOT chip is used to scan the keyboard, and, after looking at the assembly source listing of the ROM Monitor, it appears the 128 bytes of RAM in the RIOT chip are used as the storage for the monitor.     It appears that RIOT chips can be purchased, I found a place online in the US that has them for $9.95 each.  Maybe I'll order one up.

Maybe the RAM in the RIOT chip is not working properly?  If that were the case, since it appears that the stack is stored in that RAM, the first time a subroutine was called and a return executed, it'd cause possibly 0xFFFF to be read as the return address, and that's where things go awry.   

I guess maybe I need to dig out my logic analyzer, and monitor the address and data busses, and trace out what is actually happening.   But, I figured I query the list here to see if anyone might have some other things that I could do that might be easier to identify what's wrong with the thing.   

One thing that I have no idea about is the display subsection.  Since the display PIA is never selected, I suspect that any code that initializes it and tries to put something up on the display never gets a chance to execute.    The "smart" starburst LED display modules are all properly in their sockets, and +5 is delivered to the proper pin on each module, and there's no sign of unusual heating or anything else that might indicate a problem with the display modules.   The PIA also has a clean +5 and GND, and doesn't show any sign of overheating.

I have a small Motorola 6809 microprocessor development system with a couple of 6820 PIA's that I could probably write a quick routine to try to initialize the 6820 on the AIM-65 display board, and try to write a message out to the display to test it, but that seems like a lot of work.   I'd rather just fix what's up with the AIM-65, and get it running.

Any thoughts from those out there as to what to do next would certainly be appreciated.  I always value the collective knowledge of the members of this list.

Thanks,
-Rick
--
Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 22:30:22 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 23:30:22 -0400
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <201906050257.x552vGcU077119@ultimate.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <201906050257.x552vGcU077119@ultimate.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkYpSNcH8sdg5Ey_FvRCc-xx31MFv-Q8JZrDs_pfK=9yw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 10:57 PM Phil Budne via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> See the v6 dn (IV) man page:
>
> http://man.cat-v.org/unix-6th/4/dn
>
> NAME
>      dn - DN-11 ACU interface

The DN11 is a Unibus interface that drives an 801 ACU with a parallel
connection.  I hadn't remembered it until you mentioned it (we never
had one at Software Results).  DN11 docs are on Bitsavers.

Good catch.

-ethan

From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 22:50:21 2019
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 04:50:21 +0100
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCx2EeWk3tL_mgR33O=snNRTN19DRq1RCjZx2WmVCeTmnQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 2:45 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any experience working with modems that didn't include
> internal / auto dialers?

Only from the side of the things that talked to them, like the HP11284 interface
for the HP9830
>
> They came up in a conversation in a newsgroup and I realized that I know
> of them, but know virtually nothing about them.
>
> I think they were separate devices, which probably means that they
> likely had separate serial ports to talk to each of them.  Did they
> support some sort of pass through?  Or did they really require two
> serial ports on the host?

It wasn't normally a serial port. It was on a DB25 connector, and used
the same voltages as RS232, but the number to dial was sent a digit
at a time over 4 lines (obvious BCD code, I am not sure if the other
6 possibilities were used), along with a digit strobe line, various status
lines, etc.

The standard was, I think, RS366, but I have never managed to find
any real information on it.

-tony

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Jun  4 23:04:25 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 04:04:25 +0000
Subject: Catatonic Rockwell AIM-65
In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B8E9@mail.bensene.com>
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B8E9@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB56088D8960B590C2C531B054A3160@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

You might still use the logic analyzer a little. The 6532 is a static part as I recall. You could connect up some wires and attempt a write and read of the 6532. It sounds quite likely to be the issue but it never hurts to check the decoding logic. The ports are usually place at a different memory window. The I/O addresses may be working but the RAM addresses are not.
Dwight

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Rick Bensene via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 8:10 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Catatonic Rockwell AIM-65

Hi, all,

I recently was given a Rockwell AIM-65 single-board computer in nice physical condition, with the original keyboard and keyboard connector cable.
I've downloaded all of the documentation that I can find, and have been trying to get it running.

After doing a thorough visual inspection looking for any sign of detritus, especially anything metallic, as well as making sure all of the ICs were seated in the pretty-lame single-wipe sockets, and checking for any obviously cooked or overheated components.

Everything looked really nice, and quite clean.
All of the required chips were in place, and looked good, including the 6532 RIOT, 6520 PIA for the display, and two 6522 VIAs.  All of the LSI's, including the 6502, were Rockwell-made parts, with date codes all within a reasonable time of each other.

I checked across the +5V and GND power supply connection points, and found that it wasn't shorted, another decent sign.

The machine came with all five of the ROM sockets filled with original Rockwell ROMs, including the two-ROM BASIC interpreter, the Assembler ROM, as well as the two Monitor ROMs, all installed in the sockets they should be installed in.    The machine had six 2114's (1024x4 static RAM) installed in the lower three banks of user RAM, with two of the sockets unoccupied.  I got two known good 2114's from my stock of parts and installed them in the two empty sockets, so that the machine would be in the 4K of User RAM configuration.

I understand that the machine can be powered up with only the +5V supply, but the thermal printer will show as "down", as it requires the +24V supply.  The +12/-12 supplies are also not required.

I made sure that the RESET switch worked properly, and tested the KB/TTY and RUN/STEP switches operated properly.  I set the KB/TTY switch to KB, and the RUN/STEP switch to RUN.

I found a power supply that provides +5V at 5A, and tested it out on a dummy load to make sure it was healthy and had clean output, and it was fine.  I connected it up to the +5 and +5 Return (GND) terminals on the power supply input barrier strip, and held my breath, and switched on the power strip that the power supply was plugged into.

The result.  Absolutely nothing.
No sign of any activity on the display.
I didn't expect anything from the printer, because it didn't have its +24V power.

I left it powered for a little bit, checking for any chips that seemed unusually hot or anything else that seemed amiss, and nothing was obviously upset.   The CPU chip warmed up slightly to the touch, but wasn't at all alarming in terms of its temperature.     I pressed the RESET switch a number of times, and it made no difference.   Oh well.

I powered it off, and pulled the ROM chips out, and decided I'd pop 'em in my ROM programmer and compare them to the ROM images I'd downloaded off the net.

The two monitor ROMs verified exactly.   The Assembler ROM also verified correctly.  One of the BASIC ROMs also verified properly, but the other failed the verification.  Hmm...upon READing it into the programmer's RAM, I dumped it out, and low and behold, it read back as all 0xFF's.   Oops..  I double checked that the ROM was properly seated in the programmer's ZIF socket, and it was.  I tried READing it a number of times, and the result was always the same.  This ROM must have expired somewhere along the way.  I can blast a 2732 with the proper bits and build an adapter to make BASIC work once I get the thing running, and hope that maybe sometime I might find a good blank OTP 2532 ROM I can blast with the code, or find one already programmed somewhere.

That said, the BASIC ROMs aren't required to get the AIM-65 to "boot up" in the Monitor, nor is the assembler ROM.  I decided to set the BASIC and Assembler ROMs aside, and just re-installed the known-good monitor ROMs in the proper sockets.

I double-checked that all of the RAM chips were properly inserted in their sockets by pulling and re-inserting them, as well as the 6502, 6532, and 6522's.  The 6520 on the display board is soldered in, so no socket issues there.

I powered it up again, and verified that +5V was present on all of the chips on the board, and that was fine, with every chip showing +5 give or take +/- .02 Volts.  All of the GND pins were at 0V, with only tiny (sub-millivolt) noise on GND.

I put a big dip-clip on the 6502, and got out my trusty Tektronix 2465 scope, and figured I check some of the basic stuff, like making sure that the clock generator was running, and that the 6502 properly would generate the Phase 1 and Phase 2 clocks that the rest of the system uses, as well as looking at the address bus and data bus to see if it was doing anything.  The clock generator uses a 7474 dual flip flop, which I know have a tendency to go bad, so checking the clock was the logical first step.

I powered it up again after hooking everything up, and probing around showed that the clock generator was indeed running, and had the proper voltage levels, timing, and duty cycle.  The thought that maybe it'd be a simple fix, with a bad 7474, went out the window.  The 6502 was pumping out the proper Phase 1 and Phase 2 clock signals, and  both were very clean and within specifications.

I looked at the address 0 line, and pressed the RESET button, and it'd wiggle for a short period of time, then go high.  Hmm...   I looked at the other address lines, and while not all of them wiggled, they all ended up at logic 1 after a short period of time, as if the CPU was stuck at address 0xFFFF.   I did the same thing watching the data lines, and the symptoms were similar.
They'd wiggle around a bit, then settle at logic 1 and stay there.

I then watched the chip select signals for the ROMs to see if they were being addressed, and indeed, the low ROM was getting selected for a short period of time, then it'd get de-selected and stay that way.  The other monitor ROM also got a short burst of select.   So...it appears that the ROMs are being addressed, at least for a short time, and the processor is likely executing the code for a short time, but something causes it to lock up.

I checked to see if any of the RAMs were being selected, and at no time during the short period of activity after a RESET did any of the chip selects on the 2114 RAMs go active.

I then checked the PIA (6520) on the display board to see if it was being selected at all.  Nope.

Then I looked at the RIOT chip to see if it was being selected, and indeed, it is being selected during the short period of activity, but then, it goes deselected and quiet once the CPU settles in at 0xFFFF on the address lines.

It appears that the address decoding circuitry is at least mostly functional, as the ROMs, PIA, and RIOT are being addressed.  It's not exactly 100% sure that the address decoding stuff is working as it should, though.

I thought that perhaps there might be something up with the 6502.
I have a Commodore VIC-20 that works fine, and it has an original MOS 6502 in a socket, so I opened up the VIC-20, pulled the 6502 from its socket, and popped it in place of the Rockwell 6502 in the AIM-65.

The behavior was identical.  So, I'm pretty sure that the Rockwell 6502 is good.   I should have popped the Rockwell 6502 in the VIC-20 and tested it that way, but didn't want to fuss with hooking the VIC 20 up to an old TV.

I pulled all of the 2114 RAMs out, and popped them into an old calculator that I have that uses 2114 RAMs, and tested them out this way.  The calculator ran just fine with the chips from the AIM-65 in place.   I'd figure a bad RAM would likely cause the calculator to malfunction in some way.  Not a thorough test, but enough of a test to validate that none of the RAMS were dragging the address or data busses down, and that they did properly do reads and writes.

So, with all that said (sorry, I am verbose), I'm kind of at a loss as to what to do next to try to figure out what is wrong with the machine.   Does anyone out there have any suggestions?  I have a couple of spare 6522 VIA chips, but these shouldn't really be accessed unless the printer is trying to be accessed (which it might be during initialization at least), and the other VIA is for  external interface use...and is probably initialized by the ROM, but neither of them should really be actively accessed other than a short burst of initialization.   I could swap in my spare 6522's to see if it makes any difference, but I doubt it would make any.

The unknown is the 6532 RIOT chip.   I pulled up some data on the chip, and it appears to be a combination of a PIA (like 6520), 128 bytes of RAM (hmm...), and a programmable interval timer.  I don't have any spares for this chip, so I can't just substitute in another chip and see if it makes a difference.  The RIOT chip is used to scan the keyboard, and, after looking at the assembly source listing of the ROM Monitor, it appears the 128 bytes of RAM in the RIOT chip are used as the storage for the monitor.     It appears that RIOT chips can be purchased, I found a place online in the US that has them for $9.95 each.  Maybe I'll order one up.

Maybe the RAM in the RIOT chip is not working properly?  If that were the case, since it appears that the stack is stored in that RAM, the first time a subroutine was called and a return executed, it'd cause possibly 0xFFFF to be read as the return address, and that's where things go awry.

I guess maybe I need to dig out my logic analyzer, and monitor the address and data busses, and trace out what is actually happening.   But, I figured I query the list here to see if anyone might have some other things that I could do that might be easier to identify what's wrong with the thing.

One thing that I have no idea about is the display subsection.  Since the display PIA is never selected, I suspect that any code that initializes it and tries to put something up on the display never gets a chance to execute.    The "smart" starburst LED display modules are all properly in their sockets, and +5 is delivered to the proper pin on each module, and there's no sign of unusual heating or anything else that might indicate a problem with the display modules.   The PIA also has a clean +5 and GND, and doesn't show any sign of overheating.

I have a small Motorola 6809 microprocessor development system with a couple of 6820 PIA's that I could probably write a quick routine to try to initialize the 6820 on the AIM-65 display board, and try to write a message out to the display to test it, but that seems like a lot of work.   I'd rather just fix what's up with the AIM-65, and get it running.

Any thoughts from those out there as to what to do next would certainly be appreciated.  I always value the collective knowledge of the members of this list.

Thanks,
-Rick
--
Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com


From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 00:43:00 2019
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 01:43:00 -0400
Subject: Catatonic Rockwell AIM-65
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B8E9@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <F3030477C45E46CE82E5E39E85B49EDD@310e2>

Sounds like you've covered most of the common issues; a bad RIOT would definitely keep it from working and it might be worth while to replace it; if it turns out you didn't need it you could build a three-chip SBC with it, a 6502 and an EPROM  ;-)

If you've got a couple of 40-pin sockets I'd build a NOP generator which basically cycles through all the addresses; that will let you check all the address and select lines and by checking the signals on the socketed chips you'd also check the troublesome single-wipe sockets used on the early boards.

Just bend out the 8 data pins on one socket and plug it into the other one with a piece of paper in between to prevent the bent-out data pins from contacting the lower socket. Connect the data pins to Vcc and Gnd respectively so as to present the 6502 with a permanent NOP ($EA), plug it into the board with the 6502 inserted on top and watch the address signals on your scope.

Look about 1/3 down this page:
http://www.8bit-homecomputermuseum.at/repair/bluepet/bluepet.html

Coincidentally I'm just about to test and if necessary revive a half-dozen AIM65s myself; aside from the 6532 they're actually a pretty straightforward design using commonly available parts.

I assume you've found Rich Cini's treasure trove of AIM65 (and other) documentation; now that Dave Colglazier's added his collection that is the definitive source of AIM65 stuff.

Good luck; they're a fun little machine, especially with some extra memory and an RS-232 terminal. The monitor is pretty sophisticated, and having BASIC, A (Dis-)assembler, FORTH, PL-65 and even Pascal (with a little futzing) available in ROM is really convenient.

Aside from current loop, RS-232 and dual cassettes for I/O there were several disk and video interfaces available and I believe an SD-card interface is in the works...

m




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rick Bensene via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2019 11:10 PM
Subject: Catatonic Rockwell AIM-65


> Hi, all,
> 
> I recently was given a Rockwell AIM-65 single-board computer in nice physical condition, with the original keyboard and keyboard connector cable.
> I've downloaded all of the documentation that I can find, and have been trying to get it running.
> 
> After doing a thorough visual inspection looking for any sign of detritus, especially anything metallic, as well as making sure all of the ICs were seated in the pretty-lame single-wipe sockets, and checking for any obviously cooked or overheated components.   
> 
> Everything looked really nice, and quite clean.  
> All of the required chips were in place, and looked good, including the 6532 RIOT, 6520 PIA for the display, and two 6522 VIAs.  All of the LSI's, including the 6502, were Rockwell-made parts, with date codes all within a reasonable time of each other.   
> 
> I checked across the +5V and GND power supply connection points, and found that it wasn't shorted, another decent sign.
> 
> The machine came with all five of the ROM sockets filled with original Rockwell ROMs, including the two-ROM BASIC interpreter, the Assembler ROM, as well as the two Monitor ROMs, all installed in the sockets they should be installed in.    The machine had six 2114's (1024x4 static RAM) installed in the lower three banks of user RAM, with two of the sockets unoccupied.  I got two known good 2114's from my stock of parts and installed them in the two empty sockets, so that the machine would be in the 4K of User RAM configuration.
> 
> I understand that the machine can be powered up with only the +5V supply, but the thermal printer will show as "down", as it requires the +24V supply.  The +12/-12 supplies are also not required.   
> 
> I made sure that the RESET switch worked properly, and tested the KB/TTY and RUN/STEP switches operated properly.  I set the KB/TTY switch to KB, and the RUN/STEP switch to RUN.
> 
> I found a power supply that provides +5V at 5A, and tested it out on a dummy load to make sure it was healthy and had clean output, and it was fine.  I connected it up to the +5 and +5 Return (GND) terminals on the power supply input barrier strip, and held my breath, and switched on the power strip that the power supply was plugged into.
> 
> The result.  Absolutely nothing.
> No sign of any activity on the display.
> I didn't expect anything from the printer, because it didn't have its +24V power.
> 
> I left it powered for a little bit, checking for any chips that seemed unusually hot or anything else that seemed amiss, and nothing was obviously upset.   The CPU chip warmed up slightly to the touch, but wasn't at all alarming in terms of its temperature.     I pressed the RESET switch a number of times, and it made no difference.   Oh well.
> 
> I powered it off, and pulled the ROM chips out, and decided I'd pop 'em in my ROM programmer and compare them to the ROM images I'd downloaded off the net.
> 
> The two monitor ROMs verified exactly.   The Assembler ROM also verified correctly.  One of the BASIC ROMs also verified properly, but the other failed the verification.  Hmm...upon READing it into the programmer's RAM, I dumped it out, and low and behold, it read back as all 0xFF's.   Oops..  I double checked that the ROM was properly seated in the programmer's ZIF socket, and it was.  I tried READing it a number of times, and the result was always the same.  This ROM must have expired somewhere along the way.  I can blast a 2732 with the proper bits and build an adapter to make BASIC work once I get the thing running, and hope that maybe sometime I might find a good blank OTP 2532 ROM I can blast with the code, or find one already programmed somewhere.
> 
> That said, the BASIC ROMs aren't required to get the AIM-65 to "boot up" in the Monitor, nor is the assembler ROM.  I decided to set the BASIC and Assembler ROMs aside, and just re-installed the known-good monitor ROMs in the proper sockets.
> 
> I double-checked that all of the RAM chips were properly inserted in their sockets by pulling and re-inserting them, as well as the 6502, 6532, and 6522's.  The 6520 on the display board is soldered in, so no socket issues there.
> 
> I powered it up again, and verified that +5V was present on all of the chips on the board, and that was fine, with every chip showing +5 give or take +/- .02 Volts.  All of the GND pins were at 0V, with only tiny (sub-millivolt) noise on GND.
> 
> I put a big dip-clip on the 6502, and got out my trusty Tektronix 2465 scope, and figured I check some of the basic stuff, like making sure that the clock generator was running, and that the 6502 properly would generate the Phase 1 and Phase 2 clocks that the rest of the system uses, as well as looking at the address bus and data bus to see if it was doing anything.  The clock generator uses a 7474 dual flip flop, which I know have a tendency to go bad, so checking the clock was the logical first step.
> 
> I powered it up again after hooking everything up, and probing around showed that the clock generator was indeed running, and had the proper voltage levels, timing, and duty cycle.  The thought that maybe it'd be a simple fix, with a bad 7474, went out the window.  The 6502 was pumping out the proper Phase 1 and Phase 2 clock signals, and  both were very clean and within specifications.
> 
> I looked at the address 0 line, and pressed the RESET button, and it'd wiggle for a short period of time, then go high.  Hmm...   I looked at the other address lines, and while not all of them wiggled, they all ended up at logic 1 after a short period of time, as if the CPU was stuck at address 0xFFFF.   I did the same thing watching the data lines, and the symptoms were similar. 
> They'd wiggle around a bit, then settle at logic 1 and stay there.
> 
> I then watched the chip select signals for the ROMs to see if they were being addressed, and indeed, the low ROM was getting selected for a short period of time, then it'd get de-selected and stay that way.  The other monitor ROM also got a short burst of select.   So...it appears that the ROMs are being addressed, at least for a short time, and the processor is likely executing the code for a short time, but something causes it to lock up.
> 
> I checked to see if any of the RAMs were being selected, and at no time during the short period of activity after a RESET did any of the chip selects on the 2114 RAMs go active.
> 
> I then checked the PIA (6520) on the display board to see if it was being selected at all.  Nope. 
> 
> Then I looked at the RIOT chip to see if it was being selected, and indeed, it is being selected during the short period of activity, but then, it goes deselected and quiet once the CPU settles in at 0xFFFF on the address lines.  
> 
> It appears that the address decoding circuitry is at least mostly functional, as the ROMs, PIA, and RIOT are being addressed.  It's not exactly 100% sure that the address decoding stuff is working as it should, though.
> 
> I thought that perhaps there might be something up with the 6502.  
> I have a Commodore VIC-20 that works fine, and it has an original MOS 6502 in a socket, so I opened up the VIC-20, pulled the 6502 from its socket, and popped it in place of the Rockwell 6502 in the AIM-65.
> 
> The behavior was identical.  So, I'm pretty sure that the Rockwell 6502 is good.   I should have popped the Rockwell 6502 in the VIC-20 and tested it that way, but didn't want to fuss with hooking the VIC 20 up to an old TV. 
> 
> I pulled all of the 2114 RAMs out, and popped them into an old calculator that I have that uses 2114 RAMs, and tested them out this way.  The calculator ran just fine with the chips from the AIM-65 in place.   I'd figure a bad RAM would likely cause the calculator to malfunction in some way.  Not a thorough test, but enough of a test to validate that none of the RAMS were dragging the address or data busses down, and that they did properly do reads and writes.
> 
> So, with all that said (sorry, I am verbose), I'm kind of at a loss as to what to do next to try to figure out what is wrong with the machine.   Does anyone out there have any suggestions?  I have a couple of spare 6522 VIA chips, but these shouldn't really be accessed unless the printer is trying to be accessed (which it might be during initialization at least), and the other VIA is for  external interface use...and is probably initialized by the ROM, but neither of them should really be actively accessed other than a short burst of initialization.   I could swap in my spare 6522's to see if it makes any difference, but I doubt it would make any.
> 
> The unknown is the 6532 RIOT chip.   I pulled up some data on the chip, and it appears to be a combination of a PIA (like 6520), 128 bytes of RAM (hmm...), and a programmable interval timer.  I don't have any spares for this chip, so I can't just substitute in another chip and see if it makes a difference.  The RIOT chip is used to scan the keyboard, and, after looking at the assembly source listing of the ROM Monitor, it appears the 128 bytes of RAM in the RIOT chip are used as the storage for the monitor.     It appears that RIOT chips can be purchased, I found a place online in the US that has them for $9.95 each.  Maybe I'll order one up.
> 
> Maybe the RAM in the RIOT chip is not working properly?  If that were the case, since it appears that the stack is stored in that RAM, the first time a subroutine was called and a return executed, it'd cause possibly 0xFFFF to be read as the return address, and that's where things go awry.   
> 
> I guess maybe I need to dig out my logic analyzer, and monitor the address and data busses, and trace out what is actually happening.   But, I figured I query the list here to see if anyone might have some other things that I could do that might be easier to identify what's wrong with the thing.   
> 
> One thing that I have no idea about is the display subsection.  Since the display PIA is never selected, I suspect that any code that initializes it and tries to put something up on the display never gets a chance to execute.    The "smart" starburst LED display modules are all properly in their sockets, and +5 is delivered to the proper pin on each module, and there's no sign of unusual heating or anything else that might indicate a problem with the display modules.   The PIA also has a clean +5 and GND, and doesn't show any sign of overheating.
> 
> I have a small Motorola 6809 microprocessor development system with a couple of 6820 PIA's that I could probably write a quick routine to try to initialize the 6820 on the AIM-65 display board, and try to write a message out to the display to test it, but that seems like a lot of work.   I'd rather just fix what's up with the AIM-65, and get it running.
> 
> Any thoughts from those out there as to what to do next would certainly be appreciated.  I always value the collective knowledge of the members of this list.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Rick
> --
> Rick Bensene
> The Old Calculator Museum
> http://oldcalculatormuseum.com
> 
>

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 00:57:48 2019
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 01:57:48 -0400
Subject: Catatonic Rockwell AIM-65
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B8E9@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <A6B6047A58F0464F97F9D3F731E378DD@310e2>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rick Bensene via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2019 11:10 PM
Subject: Catatonic Rockwell AIM-65


> Hi, all,
> 
> I recently was given a Rockwell AIM-65 single-board computer in nice physical condition, with the original keyboard and keyboard connector cable.
> I've downloaded all of the documentation that I can find, and have been trying to get it running.

... One of the BASIC ROMs also verified properly, but the other failed the verification.  

...  This ROM must have expired somewhere along the way.  I can blast a 2732 with the proper bits and build an adapter to make BASIC work once I get the thing running, and hope that maybe sometime I might find a good blank OTP 2532 ROM I can blast with the code, or find one already programmed somewhere.
------------------------------------------------------
If you're going to get/make an adapter to convert the 2532 pinout to the 2732 JEDEC standard, you might want to consider one of the commercially available ones that let you put in up to a 27512; that lets you select any one of the available language ROM images (and any of your own) with a switch.

e.g.:
http://store.go4retro.com/23xx-adapter/
or
http://store.go4retro.com/2364-adapter/

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 02:15:19 2019
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 01:15:19 -0600
Subject: Catatonic Rockwell AIM-65
In-Reply-To: <A6B6047A58F0464F97F9D3F731E378DD@310e2>
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B8E9@mail.bensene.com>
 <A6B6047A58F0464F97F9D3F731E378DD@310e2>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSZ1Fd-ucaJ4oi=y5QDM7CDTNgg4kyXJkXEmZCkcMb_Ew@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 11:58 PM Mike Stein via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> If you're going to get/make an adapter to convert the 2532 pinout to the
> 2732 JEDEC standard, you might want to consider one of the commercially
> available ones that let you put in up to a 27512; that lets you select any
> one of the available language ROM images (and any of your own) with a
> switch.
>
> e.g.:
> http://store.go4retro.com/23xx-adapter/
> or
> http://store.go4retro.com/2364-adapter/
>

I might use those for something else, but I don't think those specific
models aret useful for a base AIM-65. The 2332 ROMs in it (or 2532 EPROM
are 24-pin devices, and the adapters you linked plug into 28-pin sockets.

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Wed Jun  5 02:11:37 2019
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2019 08:11:37 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: Catatonic Rockwell AIM-65
In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B8E9@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <01R7I9F90ULI8WWZWK@beyondthepale.ie>


>
> I looked at the address 0 line, and pressed the RESET button, and it'd wiggle
> for a short period of time, then go high.  Hmm...   I looked at the other
> address lines, and while not all of them wiggled, they all ended up at logic
> 1 after a short period of time, as if the CPU was stuck at address 0xFFFF.
> I did the same thing watching the data lines, and the symptoms were similar. 
> They'd wiggle around a bit, then settle at logic 1 and stay there.
>

As far as I recall, the 6502 reads the address to jump to in the event of a
(maskable) interrupt from FFFE and FFFF.  Could the inverted INT line (or maybe
the inverted NMI line if FFFA and FFFB both contain FF) into the 6502 be
getting pulled low by something and maybe end up getting stuck low?

I think a software interrupt BRK instruction (00) also results in a jump to
the address specified by FFFE and FFFF so perhaps this is another avenue to
explore, although I'm not sure how the CPU would end up addressing FFFF
only in the event that BRK is being executed.

Executing certain invalid opcodes may cause the CPU to hang so this might
be another possibility.

>
> Maybe the RAM in the RIOT chip is not working properly?  If that were the
> case, since it appears that the stack is stored in that RAM, the first time
> a subroutine was called and a return executed, it'd cause possibly 0xFFFF to
> be read as the return address, and that's where things go awry.
>

The stack is also read when an RTI (return from interrupt) instruction is
executed, which may be on return from an actual interrupt or BRK instruction,
however RTI can also be used just to get an address from the stack into the
program counter without adding one to it like RTS does.

An approach I've used to test stack RAM is to write a very basic memory tester
to execute on reset and program it into an EPROM used to replace the monitor
ROM.  The results can be written to the parallel ports on a 6522.  I think once
I even managed to this with a 2K static RAM with flying leads from the power
pins to roughly 5V worth of battery to keep the contents while moving the RAM
chip from where it was written to the machine under test (!).

>
> I guess maybe I need to dig out my logic analyzer, and monitor the address
> and data busses, and trace out what is actually happening.   But, I figured
> I query the list here to see if anyone might have some other things that I
> could do that might be easier to identify what's wrong with the thing.
>

I think I recall there being a SYNC signal which the 6502 asserts when it is
reading code to execute as opposed to data.  Perhaps this could be used with
a logic analyser to see what the CPU is executing?

I have some fuzzy recollection of other signals, maybe READY or something
like that which might be usable to implement single stepping through
instructions.  Or if they are in the wrong state or floating, maybe they
could possibly be responsible for the problem.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 09:51:29 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 09:51:29 -0500
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAHkUCCx2EeWk3tL_mgR33O=snNRTN19DRq1RCjZx2WmVCeTmnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAHkUCCx2EeWk3tL_mgR33O=snNRTN19DRq1RCjZx2WmVCeTmnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=K6ok8Niy9GGP9AeU=fueep2EGJff_b29bMbUqeA+NVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 10:50 PM Tony Duell via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 2:45 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone have any experience working with modems that didn't include
> > internal / auto dialers?
>
> It wasn't normally a serial port. It was on a DB25 connector, and used
> the same voltages as RS232...

The UDS 801 ACU supported either serial or parallel over the same DB25
connector.

> ...but the number to dial was sent a digit
> at a time over 4 lines (obvious BCD code, I am not sure if the other
> 6 possibilities were used), along with a digit strobe line, various status
> lines, etc.

Yes.   I think some of the other 6 codes were used for other dial
symbols (',' for pause, for example) but I didn't quickly find a
definitive list.

> The standard was, I think, RS366, but I have never managed to find
> any real information on it.

Yes.  RS366 was the standard for parallel-driven autodiallers, later
EIA-366.  Also, V.25 is an autodialler standard.

There's some implementation detail in the DEC DN11 docs on Bitsavers.

-ethan

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Jun  5 10:42:29 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 09:42:29 -0600
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/4/19 8:30 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> Keep in mins the hardware for auto dial required some for of micro and 
> that was a post 1974 thing for the most part.

Why did it require a micro?  Could the host not perform the function 
that the micro would do?

> A few before that had a lot of TTL state machine to do that. 
> They obviously weren't cheap.

Why did that state machine need to be implemented in electronics?

Why couldn't that state machine be implemented in software on the host 
using the modem & auto-dialer?

> The dialer was often not at all as it was the human that dialed the phone.

~chuckle~

> I know of none that did both functions that required a second serial port.

Okay.

Reading the links that Ethan provided, it sounds like some auto-dialers 
did use a second port, but it was not a second (recommended) standard 
232 port.  Instead it was an RS-232 and RS-366.

Aside:  RS-366 sounds odd.  A combination of serial signaling and 
parallel signaling on the same port.  But not the same as a traditional 
parallel printer port.

> My first modem was a box about 12x8x2.5 inches and it was an all analog 
> modem good for 110/300 baud and it required connection to the phone line 
> (pre-modular connector) and you dialed the various (and relatively scarce) 
> BBSs and when you heard the tone hit the switch that put the modem on 
> the phone line and you would see the carrier and data lamps do their 
> thing. That was 1978ish.

Aside:  I assume that you're talking about before the small 6-position 2 
or 4 conductor plugs.  Or are you referring to the older than that 
not-quite-square 4 pin plug?  Or was the modem actually hard wired in 
with no plug / jack at all?

> A modem that could dial was maybe 1983-5 or so at affordable prices 
> (under 300$) for 300 baud.

*nod*

I have this mental picture, which I think is based on something I've 
seen at some point in the past, that was a device that attached / 
actuated / ??? a traditional rotary dial phone.  As in it had a finger 
that interfaced with the dial and something that could rotate it to dial 
the digit in question, rewind (term?), and dial the next digit in question.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 10:58:04 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 10:58:04 -0500
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimn=57cQnVZMRYwasMzW1YNQFS=OpbfvC_GYhZVMA=a1Zg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 10:42 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Reading the links that Ethan provided, it sounds like some auto-dialers
> did use a second port, but it was not a second (recommended) standard
> 232 port.  Instead it was an RS-232 and RS-366.
>
> Aside:  RS-366 sounds odd.  A combination of serial signaling and
> parallel signaling on the same port.  But not the same as a traditional
> parallel printer port.

Not quite... the USD 801 ACU I keep mentioning supported dialing using
either RS-232 or RS-366 over the same physical port.  It was a
flexible device that would work with a parallel dialing controller
like the DEC DN11 or by just using a second serial port from your
host.

> > My first modem was a box about 12x8x2.5 inches and it was an all analog
> > modem good for 110/300 baud and it required connection to the phone line...

My own first modem (vs the sync stuff I've been mentioning) was a
Commodore VICmodem that didn't even connect directly to your phone
line that I got in late 1982.

The host connector was a TTL-level edge connector for the VIC-20/C-64
User Port.  There were routines in ROM that emulated a 6850 ACIA for
Kernel device #2 (OPEN 2,2,2...) but from an application software
standpoint it worked just as if you had a UART in the machine.  The
other connector was a handset connector for a standard US telephone
(narrow 4p4c jack).  Internally, the modem was functionally like a
Novation Cat without the acoustic cups or the EIA level converters or
indicator LEDs.

To use this modem, you'd load and run your terminal app then pick up
the phone and dial the number.  When the far end answered, you'd
unplug the coiled cord from the handset and quickly plug it into the
VICmodem before the other end hung up.  It did have the advantage over
an acoustic coupler in that room noise was not a factor and it had the
advantage over a Hayes modem of cost (ISTR the VICmodem was somewhere
around $70 and did not require the $50 Commodore RS-232 "interface"
(analog level shifter with DB25 port).  I did eventually get that
RS-232 cartridge but not for modem work.  I got it to hook my C-64 to
other local machines for file transfer.

Like a lot of hobbyists in the 70s and 80s, I spent a lot of time
making serial adapters and debugging serial comms.  It came in handy
when I went to work for the place that made sync serial devices.  I
still do most of my hacking on a Dell laptop that's old enough to have
a real serial port and I do use that port.  It has advantages over USB
dongles for some of the less-traditional uses (like 45.45 / 50 bps and
2 stop bits for old teletypes).

-ethan

From sales at elecplus.com  Wed Jun  5 11:01:23 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 11:01:23 -0500
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <027701d51bb7$ecaa8160$c5ff8420$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2019 10:42 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.

On 6/4/19 8:30 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> Keep in mins the hardware for auto dial required some for of micro and 
> that was a post 1974 thing for the most part.

Why did it require a micro?  Could the host not perform the function 
that the micro would do?

> A few before that had a lot of TTL state machine to do that. 
> They obviously weren't cheap.

Why did that state machine need to be implemented in electronics?

Why couldn't that state machine be implemented in software on the host 
using the modem & auto-dialer?

> The dialer was often not at all as it was the human that dialed the phone.

~chuckle~

> I know of none that did both functions that required a second serial port.

Okay.

Reading the links that Ethan provided, it sounds like some auto-dialers 
did use a second port, but it was not a second (recommended) standard 
232 port.  Instead it was an RS-232 and RS-366.

Aside:  RS-366 sounds odd.  A combination of serial signaling and 
parallel signaling on the same port.  But not the same as a traditional 
parallel printer port.

> My first modem was a box about 12x8x2.5 inches and it was an all analog 
> modem good for 110/300 baud and it required connection to the phone line 
> (pre-modular connector) and you dialed the various (and relatively scarce) 
> BBSs and when you heard the tone hit the switch that put the modem on 
> the phone line and you would see the carrier and data lamps do their 
> thing. That was 1978ish.

Aside:  I assume that you're talking about before the small 6-position 2 
or 4 conductor plugs.  Or are you referring to the older than that 
not-quite-square 4 pin plug?  Or was the modem actually hard wired in 
with no plug / jack at all?

> A modem that could dial was maybe 1983-5 or so at affordable prices 
> (under 300$) for 300 baud.

*nod*

I have this mental picture, which I think is based on something I've 
seen at some point in the past, that was a device that attached / 
actuated / ??? a traditional rotary dial phone.  As in it had a finger 
that interfaced with the dial and something that could rotate it to dial 
the digit in question, rewind (term?), and dial the next digit in question.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

I used to have Rixon 212A autodialers. There were about the size of a Hayes modem, and only had 1 RS232 port and a phone jack on the back. I no longer have the modems, but I do still have one owner's manual in a binder. IIRC, the dialing was done through a software interface.

The other dialers mentioned before were probably twice the size of the Rixon.

I do still have one 300 baud acoustical modem in stock, if anyone is interested. AC adapter is included.

Cindy


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From johnl at johnlabovitz.com  Wed Jun  5 11:27:35 2019
From: johnl at johnlabovitz.com (John Labovitz)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 12:27:35 -0400
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>

On Jun 5, 2019, at 11:42 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Why did it require a micro?  Could the host not perform the function that the micro would do? [?] Why couldn't that state machine be implemented in software on the host using the modem & auto-dialer?

Character-based I/O on mainframes and even minicomputers was fairly rare at that point. On some systems it was impossible; on others it was very CPU-intensive. I remember trying to do character I/O on a Tandem NonStop; it wasn?t easy, or effective. Having a dedicated microcomputer solved a lot of problems.

My dad actually built a successful company in the 1980s to do just that: he build front-end controllers, which were essentially large number of serial ports connected to a rack of Z80 boards, which would then be connected to a mini (a Tandem) or mainframe via some bulk-oriented format. For example, I wrote code for him that let a typical terminal (eg, Wyse, VT-100) emulate a Univac block-style terminal. All the input, screen management, etc. was done on the Z80 machines, then shipped over in a multiplex fashion first to the Tandem and then to a Univac as block forms.

> Reading the links that Ethan provided, it sounds like some auto-dialers did use a second port, but it was not a second (recommended) standard 232 port.  Instead it was an RS-232 and RS-366. [?] Or was the modem actually hard wired in with no plug / jack at all?

You?re getting warmer. ;-)

Modems started out as straight modulators-demodulators, connecting two remote devices (computers, terminals, printers) over a point-to-point leased line specially installed from the local telephone company ? basically like a T1 line would be installed today. The POTS line was hard-wired (via screw-down terminals) on one side of the modem and the digital data connector (eg, DB-25) on the other. Usually the connections were always on; I suppose the billing was probably by data usage, or even fixed price, instead of by time.

> I have this mental picture, which I think is based on something I've seen at some point in the past, that was a device that attached / actuated / ??? a traditional rotary dial phone.  As in it had a finger that interfaced with the dial and something that could rotate it to dial the digit in question, rewind (term?), and dial the next digit in question.

Maybe someone created that monstrosity (;-), but the typical usage was that you used an acoustic coupler modem that had cups where a typical handset would fit. The modem itself only had a data connection to the terminal (or printer or card reader/punch). Next to the modem was a regular telephone ? you dialed the number on the phone, and once you heard the carrier squeal, you?d quickly set the handset into the coupler. Usually you?d see a spurt of random characters on the screen which was the modem getting confused by the carrier being gradually synced up. To hang up, you?d simply pull the handset out of the coupler and hang it up as normal.

I do recall a little handheld device with a touchtone keyboard that you could fit over the microphone of a normal handset. It wasn?t automated, but at least you didn?t have to use the rotary dial. (This presumed, of course, that the telco switch was DTMF-compatible.)

?John

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 11:30:01 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 18:30:01 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 at 18:27, John Labovitz via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> I do recall a little handheld device with a touchtone keyboard that you could fit over the microphone of a normal handset. It wasn?t automated, but at least you didn?t have to use the rotary dial.

This was a built-in feature of the Psion range of PDAs. The address
book app could dial any number in the address book, merely by holding
it up to the phone mouthpiece.

It blew people's minds at the time (very early 1990s).

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 11:27:02 2019
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 10:27:02 -0600
Subject: Catatonic Rockwell AIM-65
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSZ1Fd-ucaJ4oi=y5QDM7CDTNgg4kyXJkXEmZCkcMb_Ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B8E9@mail.bensene.com>
 <A6B6047A58F0464F97F9D3F731E378DD@310e2>
 <CAFrGgTSZ1Fd-ucaJ4oi=y5QDM7CDTNgg4kyXJkXEmZCkcMb_Ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTAfRffgBcBiiVh3jSWsY4rVyPbxLteezmh90uecL+QTA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 1:15 AM Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:

> I might use those for something else, but I don't think those specific
> models aret useful for a base AIM-65. The 2332 ROMs in it (or 2532 EPROM
> are 24-pin devices, and the adapters you linked plug into 28-pin sockets.
>

Mike pointed out to me in private email that I was mistaken. I read the
pages more carefully, and the first adapter he linked to is suitable for
24-pin sockets. That looks pretty useful!

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Wed Jun  5 11:40:19 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 16:40:19 +0000
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>

On 6/5/19 12:30 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 at 18:27, John Labovitz via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>>
>> I do recall a little handheld device with a touchtone keyboard that you could fit over the microphone of a normal handset. It wasn?t automated, but at least you didn?t have to use the rotary dial.
> 
> This was a built-in feature of the Psion range of PDAs. The address
> book app could dial any number in the address book, merely by holding
> it up to the phone mouthpiece.
> 
> It blew people's minds at the time (very early 1990s).
> 

Why?  Handheld touchtone generators were very common in the
the early 90's.  Even the late 80's.  I bought mine in Radio
Shack.  They were often needed if your employer used an in
house private phone network (like MMDS where I worked) or
a phone accessed Email system (like IBM's PROFS) because
the phone company had this habit of turning off the keypad
on payphones after the first connection.

bill


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Jun  5 11:45:15 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 10:45:15 -0600
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimn=57cQnVZMRYwasMzW1YNQFS=OpbfvC_GYhZVMA=a1Zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAALmimn=57cQnVZMRYwasMzW1YNQFS=OpbfvC_GYhZVMA=a1Zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3a5facd3-7a3c-f47c-ece4-6929614c6d28@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/5/19 9:58 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> Not quite... the USD 801 ACU I keep mentioning supported dialing using 
> either RS-232 or RS-366 over the same physical port.  It was a flexible 
> device that would work with a parallel dialing controller like the DEC 
> DN11 or by just using a second serial port from your host.

Okay.  Now I'm even more confused.  I'll have to go back and re-read 
some of the links you shared.  I'd swear that the brochure mentioned 1 x 
RS-232 + 1 x RS-366 -or- 2 x RS-232 port requirement on hosts.

> The other connector was a handset connector for a standard US telephone 
> (narrow 4p4c jack).
> 
> To use this modem, you'd load and run your terminal app then pick up the 
> phone and dial the number.  When the far end answered, you'd unplug the 
> coiled cord from the handset and quickly plug it into the VICmodem before 
> the other end hung up.

So the phone played an active role in modem communications.  At least in 
so far as it converted the purely audio from the modem to telephony used 
by the PSTN.

> It did have the advantage over an acoustic coupler in that room noise 
> was not a factor

ACK

Analogues to the Line-Out to Line-In for audio recording vs speaker and 
microphone.  (Quite literally.)

> it had the advantage over a Hayes modem of cost (ISTR the VICmodem 
> was somewhere around $70 and did not require the $50 Commodore RS-232 
> "interface" (analog level shifter with DB25 port).  I did eventually get 
> that RS-232 cartridge but not for modem work.  I got it to hook my C-64 
> to other local machines for file transfer.

ACK

> Like a lot of hobbyists in the 70s and 80s, I spent a lot of time making 
> serial adapters and debugging serial comms.  It came in handy when I 
> went to work for the place that made sync serial devices.  I still do 
> most of my hacking on a Dell laptop that's old enough to have a real 
> serial port and I do use that port.  It has advantages over USB dongles 
> for some of the less-traditional uses (like 45.45 / 50 bps and 2 stop 
> bits for old teletypes).

Intriguing.  I've never done much with anything other than 9600 or 
115200 for terminal connections to equipment to configure & manage said 
equipment.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 11:48:16 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 18:48:16 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 at 18:40, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Why?  Handheld touchtone generators were very common in the
> the early 90's.  Even the late 80's.  I bought mine in Radio
> Shack.  They were often needed if your employer used an in
> house private phone network (like MMDS where I worked) or
> a phone accessed Email system (like IBM's PROFS) because
> the phone company had this habit of turning off the keypad
> on payphones after the first connection.

This may be a European thing, I don't know.

This wasn't a phone-dialling device or anything. It was a tiny pocket
computer, but unlike something like an HP 95LX, it was a GUI machine
with a diary, address book, word-processor, spreadsheet and so on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3

It wasn't the first "digital diary" of course, but it was the best.
Ultimately a later, ARM version of the OS became the basis of Symbian.

But the fact that your pocket address book could dial the phone for
you -- not by being a keypad or anything, just by picking it up,
looking for Bob and pressing DIAL and then holding it near the phone
-- was impressive for its time.

One of my favourite things to do with its successor model (the Series
5) was pull up an address entry, and when someone pulled out a Palm
Pilot and starting trying to scribble Graffiti into it, to stop them
and transmit the contact to them by IRDA. Most Palm owners had no idea
that their devices spoke infra-red and for them to get a whole contact
instantly by wireless was deeply impressive to them.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Jun  5 12:04:44 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 11:04:44 -0600
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
Message-ID: <849ddbe7-0923-e48b-be47-ff8d1e309585@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/5/19 10:27 AM, John Labovitz via cctalk wrote:
> Character-based I/O on mainframes and even minicomputers was fairly rare 
> at that point. On some systems it was impossible; on others it was very 
> CPU-intensive. I remember trying to do character I/O on a Tandem NonStop; 
> it wasn?t easy, or effective. Having a dedicated microcomputer solved 
> a lot of problems.

Ah.  Now the need for another computer makes sense.

> My dad actually built a successful company in the 1980s to do just that: 
> he build front-end controllers, which were essentially large number 
> of serial ports connected to a rack of Z80 boards, which would then 
> be connected to a mini (a Tandem) or mainframe via some bulk-oriented 
> format. For example, I wrote code for him that let a typical terminal (eg, 
> Wyse, VT-100) emulate a Univac block-style terminal. All the input, screen 
> management, etc. was done on the Z80 machines, then shipped over in a 
> multiplex fashion first to the Tandem and then to a Univac as block forms.

ACK

> You?re getting warmer. ;-)
> 
> Modems started out as straight modulators-demodulators, connecting two 
> remote devices (computers, terminals, printers) over a point-to-point 
> leased line specially installed from the local telephone company ? 
> basically like a T1 line would be installed today. The POTS line was 
> hard-wired (via screw-down terminals) on one side of the modem and the 
> digital data connector (eg, DB-25) on the other. Usually the connections 
> were always on; I suppose the billing was probably by data usage, or 
> even fixed price, instead of by time.

ACK

We used some 56 kbps (bit robbed) lines for terminal multiplexers at my 
job around 2000.  They were always on and (I think) just billed at a 
monthly rate for the line.

> Maybe someone created that monstrosity (;-), but the typical usage was 
> that you used an acoustic coupler modem that had cups where a typical 
> handset would fit. The modem itself only had a data connection to the 
> terminal (or printer or card reader/punch). Next to the modem was a 
> regular telephone ? you dialed the number on the phone, and once 
> you heard the carrier squeal, you?d quickly set the handset into the 
> coupler. Usually you?d see a spurt of random characters on the screen 
> which was the modem getting confused by the carrier being gradually synced 
> up. To hang up, you?d simply pull the handset out of the coupler and 
> hang it up as normal.

ACK

> I do recall a little handheld device with a touchtone keyboard that you 
> could fit over the microphone of a normal handset. It wasn?t automated, 
> but at least you didn?t have to use the rotary dial. (This presumed, 
> of course, that the telco switch was DTMF-compatible.)

I remember things like that.

I also remember a pager for kids that didn't even have a display.  It 
simply dialed the number by playing the DTMF tones into a mouth piece.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 12:10:40 2019
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 11:10:40 -0600
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSH58cZHhWkq51V=wKTNA55LER-ZuR_BSWXUqC+EdWd3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 8:30 PM allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Keep in mins the hardware for auto dial required some for of micro and
> that was a post 1974 thing for the most part.  A few before that had a
> lot of TTL state machine to do that.  They obviously weren't cheap.
>

AFAIK the first commercially dialer for data use was the Bell 801A
Automatic Calling Unit from 1964. It didn't contain a state machine any
more complicated than a four-bit counter to send the appropriate number of
dial pulses, though in 1964 even that was a fair bit of circuitry. As with
other Western Electric equipment, it wasn't cheaply made, and also was not
inexpensive to rent. The only thing preventing other companies from making
less expensive alternatives was that customers were still not allowed to
connect their own equipment directly to the PSTN at that time. The host
computer presented one digit at a time to it over a four-bit parallel
interface (using either EIA RS-232 levels or relay contact closures,
depending on model).

The 801C from 1965 used DTMF rather than pulse, and somewhat ironically its
innards are actually _simpler_ than the 801A, because it doesn't need the
four-bit counter. I suspect that it generated the DTMF using almost the
same circuit as the original DTMF encoders in telephones, with a single
transistor and multiple inductors. However, unlike the telephone, it needed
circuitry to decode the four bit BCD input from the customer equipment to
the two-of-four selections for the DTMF encoder.

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 12:36:44 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 12:36:44 -0500
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnuAN4S2PL+8FHX0r=W+mmwPdcC-RUfBU=D0T=pBq7YXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 11:27 AM John Labovitz via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> I do recall a little handheld device with a touchtone keyboard that you could fit
> over the microphone of a normal handset. It wasn?t automated, but at least you
> didn?t have to use the rotary dial. (This presumed, of course, that the telco switch
> was DTMF-compatible.)

I still have one of those.  I had it in my hand last month wondering
if I'd ever use it again.  Maybe for a VCF display.

-ethan

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Jun  5 12:38:34 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 10:38:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906050931450.28174@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 5 Jun 2019, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> I have this mental picture, which I think is based on something I've 
> seen at some point in the past, that was a device that attached / 
> actuated / ??? a traditional rotary dial phone.  As in it had a finger 
> that interfaced with the dial and something that could rotate it to 
> dial the digit in question, rewind (term?), and dial the next digit in 
> question.

Typically a thick flat disk that clipped to the dial, with a motor and a 
clutch to permit the dial and disk to return to rest position.
But, a FINGER is such a better visual image!

Prior to Carterfone V Western Electric, (1968) . . .
There were DAAs RENTED by TPC ("The Phone Company" (cf, "The President's 
Analyst")), dialers RENTED by TPC, and acoustic couplers in the 
after-market.

There were devices that sat on top of the "hook" of the phone (where the 
handset rested to hang up, with the handset on top of them.  A solenoid 
could lift the handset for "off-hook", and set it down again for hang-up.
In some cases, such as answering machines, that sandwich in between the 
phone and handset had speaker and microphone, but I don't recall ever 
seeing a modem made that way - "common sense" held that you needed "cups" 
for the handset for noise isolation.

Carterfone was extremely significant as it allowed connecting to the phone 
line "if it did not damage or interfere with normal operations".
Carter started trying to peddle his systems in 1959, but AT&T 
So, Carterfone is to thank for all direct connect telephone devices, 
indeed, all "foreign attachments", even a plastic cup that clipped on the 
phone handset for a little more privacy!
AT&T rejected ANYTHING that connected, on the grounds that even that 
plastic privacy cup degraded the quality of the sound.
http://www.historyofcomputercommunications.info/Book/1/1.2CarterfoneATT_FCC48-67.html

Prior to Carterfone, you had acoustic couplers, switch-hook solenoids, 
DAAs RENTED by TPC, and only TPC dialers. Once direct connection was 
available, you got things like the PhoneMate dialer, and moving piece of 
mylar with marks and photocells.

Later, "Touch tone" made it possible to "dial" by making noises into the 
phone, both simple dialers (cf. Hayes "ATDT") and simple devices to 
implement the full set of DTMF tones (cf. blue boxes, and DTMF C-tone to 
turn off FBI phone recording taps)

"Hayes Compatible" was a marketing term to describe anything that used the 
same (orsimilar) commands as Hayes.  But, Hayes, themselves, never fully 
created a standard.  Joe Campbell ("C Programmers Guide To Serial 
Communications", "The RS232 Solution", etc.) once consulted for Hayes to 
try to help them make such a standard out of the myriad devices they 
already had extant.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 13:00:45 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 13:00:45 -0500
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <3a5facd3-7a3c-f47c-ece4-6929614c6d28@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAALmimn=57cQnVZMRYwasMzW1YNQFS=OpbfvC_GYhZVMA=a1Zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3a5facd3-7a3c-f47c-ece4-6929614c6d28@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnNXUF3MmsATdME5D1Oz3NdwCo4R=hgv8UWWGFwcNVbhQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 11:45 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On 6/5/19 9:58 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> > Not quite... the USD 801 ACU I keep mentioning supported dialing using
> > either RS-232 or RS-366 over the same physical port.  It was a flexible
> > device that would work with a parallel dialing controller like the DEC
> > DN11 or by just using a second serial port from your host.
>
> Okay.  Now I'm even more confused.  I'll have to go back and re-read
> some of the links you shared.  I'd swear that the brochure mentioned 1 x
> RS-232 + 1 x RS-366 -or- 2 x RS-232 port requirement on hosts.

I agree with what that brochure says.  The 801 ACU + Modem needed
either RS-366 + 1 x RS-232 or 2 x RS-232 depending on what you had to
drive it.  It was more flexible than some other ACUs that only
provided one type of physical connection.

The DN11 connects to the 801 ACU via RS-366.  In conjunction with
that, one of your PDP-11/VAX RS-232 serial ports was used for the
modem.

For the COMBOARD example, the COMBOARD itself provided a sync serial
port, not a serial port of the VAX you were on, to talk to the sync
modem, _but_ one of the VAX ports _was_ used to drive the 801 ACU.

> > The other connector was a handset connector for a standard US telephone
> > (narrow 4p4c jack).

The rest of my message was about the VICmodem and nothing to do with an 801 ACU.

> So the phone played an active role in modem communications.  At least in
> so far as it converted the purely audio from the modem to telephony used
> by the PSTN.

Yes.

> Intriguing.  I've never done much with anything other than 9600 or
> 115200 for terminal connections to equipment to configure & manage said
> equipment.

My first 9600 connection to a machine was a local terminal on a VAX at
work.  My own gear didn't go that fast in those days.  I'm trying to
remember if I got a (new) Amiga 1000 first or a (used) PDP-11/23
first, but one of those two was what I could finally use to go that
fast at home.  My fastest modem for a long while was a borrowed 1200
baud modem for calling into work/school.

My first modems were the aforementioned VICmodem (300 baud) and a
suitcase-sized 110 baud "DataSet" mounted into the bottom of an ASR33.

-ethan

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Jun  5 13:01:33 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 11:01:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <3a5facd3-7a3c-f47c-ece4-6929614c6d28@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAALmimn=57cQnVZMRYwasMzW1YNQFS=OpbfvC_GYhZVMA=a1Zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3a5facd3-7a3c-f47c-ece4-6929614c6d28@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051052360.28174@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 5 Jun 2019, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> So the phone played an active role in modem communications.  At least in so 
> far as it converted the purely audio from the modem to telephony used by the 
> PSTN.

"MODEM" is short for "MODulator-DEModulator"
It is explicitly a device that took data and "MODULATED" it into audio 
tones for the phone, and took tones from the phone and "DEMODULATED" them 
into data.

Bell 103 used one frequency for 1 and another for 0, and a different pair 
for the other side, to at least in theory permit full-duplex.
1270Hz/1070Hz and 2225Hz/2025Hz

A couple of my students tried to make an almost entirely software based 
modem that just counted the waves.

If you calculate how many waves of the tone you get at 300 per second, you 
can see why the speed could not be increased [MUCH].
"it is impossible to go faster than that"

Later systems to try to speed things up went to PHASE-shift keying, 
"it is impossible to go faster than that"
quadrature, etc.
"it is impossible to go faster than that"
even compression  ("56K" V.90,etc.)
each of which had its own theoretical speed limits, and 
"it is impossible to go faster than that"


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Jun  5 13:06:44 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 11:06:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 5 Jun 2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> One of my favourite things to do with its successor model (the Series
> 5) was pull up an address entry, and when someone pulled out a Palm
> Pilot and starting trying to scribble Graffiti into it, to stop them
> and transmit the contact to them by IRDA. Most Palm owners had no idea
> that their devices spoke infra-red and for them to get a whole contact
> instantly by wireless was deeply impressive to them.

I don't think that my Fossil (Palm-OS WATCH) does IRDA.
I should find somebody who will pay me money for such a piece of 
crap^H^H^H^H NEAT technology.



NOTE:
I consider the OQOs (XP or Linux in a pocket; need to sell off of a bunch 
of them), and the Fossil to be "Classic" even if they don't follow a 
10-year/20-year/30-year guideline :-)

From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Wed Jun  5 13:10:44 2019
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 13:10:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906050931450.28174@shell.lmi.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906050931450.28174@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <398686439.118619.1559758244352@email.ionos.com>


 > But, a FINGER is such a better visual image! 

 > There were devices that sat on top of the "hook" of the phone (where the > handset rested to hang up, with the handset on top of them. A solenoid > could lift the handset for "off-hook", and set it down again for hang-up. 


Did anyone ever make a "dialer" that operated by pressing/releasing the switch hook?  Seems a solenoid to do that would be a lot simpler than a "motorized finger."  Just curious.

Will

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." --? Antoine de Saint-Exupery


"The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 13:59:43 2019
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 14:59:43 -0400
Subject: Catatonic Rockwell AIM-65
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B8E9@mail.bensene.com>
 <A6B6047A58F0464F97F9D3F731E378DD@310e2>
 <CAFrGgTSZ1Fd-ucaJ4oi=y5QDM7CDTNgg4kyXJkXEmZCkcMb_Ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTTAfRffgBcBiiVh3jSWsY4rVyPbxLteezmh90uecL+QTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FA52113173EA4BA297E688E9C06459D2@310e2>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Smith via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2019 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: Catatonic Rockwell AIM-65


> On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 1:15 AM Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I might use those for something else, but I don't think those specific
>> models aret useful for a base AIM-65. The 2332 ROMs in it (or 2532 EPROM
>> are 24-pin devices, and the adapters you linked plug into 28-pin sockets.
>>
> 
> Mike pointed out to me in private email that I was mistaken. I read the
> pages more carefully, and the first adapter he linked to is suitable for
> 24-pin sockets. That looks pretty useful!
--------------------

Odd; it was meant to go to the list as well but for some reason the return address only listed you.

Actually, they both plug into 24-pin sockets; the difference between the two is that the 23xx adapter has some extra options, including accommodating positive-logic chip selects.

At the risk of repeating what might have been obvious, the main reason I mentioned them in this AIM65 context is not only to trivially convert the 2532 pinout to a 27xx pinout; they do that, although using a 24-pin 2732 instead of a section of a larger 28-pin EPROM does require the Vcc jumper.

As mentioned, the 2332 can also be directly replaced with a 2532 EPROM, and an MC68764/66 can replace the ubiquitous 24-pin 8KB 2364 type. 

But although they're useful in many systems including Commodore and even the IBM PC, they're particularly useful if you're actually using an AIM65:

As mentioned, the AIM65's languages (except Pascal) are each in two 4KB ROMs, located in the same memory area and the same two sockets. This is convenient, especially considering the small base RAM, but it's a PITA if you want to switch, say, from BASIC to FORTH or even the 8K assembler, especially if the AIM is in an enclosure.

These adapters let you select among languages with a switch instead of having to remove and replace the two ROM chips every time.

BTW, the connections for the NOP generator are:
Pins 29, 31 and 33 to pin 1 (GND)
Pins 26, 27, 28, 30 and 32 to pin 8 (Vcc) 

https://easyeda.com/normal/6502_NOPpcb-ad5f77f0e6c0439f8e08cece619c407e

Hope Rick has it working by now so he can play with it.



From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 14:28:12 2019
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 13:28:12 -0600
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906050931450.28174@shell.lmi.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906050931450.28174@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRToNrvmQQ-k-ATY-2UMRprSCeXWdt9ncSsqq97_azTPw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 11:38 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Prior to Carterfone V Western Electric, (1968) . . .
> There were DAAs RENTED by TPC ("The Phone Company" (cf, "The President's
> Analyst")), dialers RENTED by TPC, and acoustic couplers in the
> after-market.

[...]

> Prior to Carterfone, you had acoustic couplers, switch-hook solenoids,
> DAAs RENTED by TPC, and only TPC dialers. Once direct connection was
> available, you got things like the PhoneMate dialer, and moving piece of
> mylar with marks and photocells.
>

The 1968 Carterfone decision did eventually result in customers being
allowed to hook their own devices up directly to the phone line, but
contrary to what a lot of online sources including Wikipedia claim, that
didn't really happen until the FCC promulgated the Part 68 regulations in
1975.  The immediate reaction to Carterfone was that in 1968 Bell created a
"foreign attachment" tariff, which allowed customers to lease the type CBS
or CBT Data Access Arrangements (DAA), which included protective coupling
circuitry, and connect their own devices to the network only indirectly
through the DAA.

Starting in 1975, equipment could be sold for direct attachment if it met
the Part 68 requirements and was registered with the FCC. The equipment had
to bear a label with the Ringer Equivalency Number (REN), and the
subscriber was supposed to notify the phone company of the RENs of the
devices they were using. I don't know anyone who actually did so.

There is very little detail on this available online, but I found that
Google Books can show relevant excerpts from _Communciations Law and
Practice_ by Stuart N. Brotman, 2006 printing (originally published 1995).
See pages 5-19 and 5-20.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Jun  5 14:46:09 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 12:46:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRToNrvmQQ-k-ATY-2UMRprSCeXWdt9ncSsqq97_azTPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906050931450.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAFrGgTRToNrvmQQ-k-ATY-2UMRprSCeXWdt9ncSsqq97_azTPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051238340.28174@shell.lmi.net>

>> Prior to Carterfone V Western Electric, (1968) . . .
On Wed, 5 Jun 2019, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:

> The 1968 Carterfone decision did eventually result in customers being
> allowed to hook their own devices up directly to the phone line, but
> contrary to what a lot of online sources including Wikipedia claim, that
> didn't really happen until the FCC promulgated the Part 68 regulations in
> 1975.  The immediate reaction to Carterfone was that in 1968 Bell created a
> "foreign attachment" tariff, which allowed customers to lease the type CBS
> or CBT Data Access Arrangements (DAA), which included protective coupling
> circuitry, and connect their own devices to the network only indirectly
> through the DAA.

I remember well, seeing mention of Carterfone in a magazine (at a 
newstand), at or shortly after the time.
I thought, "WOW! lots of aftermarket phones, better answering machines, 
modems, not being asked to PAY for an extension, and neat stuff!  But, I 
wonder how many years it will be before that moves from theoretical 
possibilities to actually being able to connect?  How will TPC ("The 
Presiden't Analyst") manage to make money off of it?  Will they add 
special noises to phone lines to disrupt modems, or will they peddle 
s'posedly better lines for data use?"


> There is very little detail on this available online, but I found that
> Google Books can show relevant excerpts from _Communciations Law and
> Practice_ by Stuart N. Brotman, 2006 printing (originally published 1995).
> See pages 5-19 and 5-20.

THANK YOU!!

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 15:08:03 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 16:08:03 -0400
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <027701d51bb7$ecaa8160$c5ff8420$@com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <027701d51bb7$ecaa8160$c5ff8420$@com>
Message-ID: <427691d7-bd6e-138c-b0af-9aba916efd3d@gmail.com>

On 06/05/2019 12:01 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via cctalk
> Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2019 10:42 AM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.
> 
> On 6/4/19 8:30 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>> Keep in mins the hardware for auto dial required some for of micro and 
>> that was a post 1974 thing for the most part.
> 
> Why did it require a micro?  Could the host not perform the function 
> that the micro would do?
> 
>> A few before that had a lot of TTL state machine to do that. 
>> They obviously weren't cheap.

Simple answer was at that time micros were not yet invented.  Actually
they were but not economical when a 8080 board or 6502 board required a
large handful of parts.  Before that? Whats an 8080?


> Why did that state machine need to be implemented in electronics?

It was a way to have rudimentary smarts that was not quite a cpu.

> Why couldn't that state machine be implemented in software on the host 
> using the modem & auto-dialer?
>

IT was the auto dialer!  OR it used manual dialer.


>> The dialer was often not at all as it was the human that dialed the phone.
> 
> ~chuckle~
> 
>> I know of none that did both functions that required a second serial port.
> 
> Okay.
> 
> Reading the links that Ethan provided, it sounds like some auto-dialers 
> did use a second port, but it was not a second (recommended) standard 
> 232 port.  Instead it was an RS-232 and RS-366.
> 
> Aside:  RS-366 sounds odd.  A combination of serial signaling and 
> parallel signaling on the same port.  But not the same as a traditional 
> parallel printer port.
>

Those likely existed but it was for system that did a lot of dialing out.

>> My first modem was a box about 12x8x2.5 inches and it was an all analog 
>> modem good for 110/300 baud and it required connection to the phone line 
>> (pre-modular connector) and you dialed the various (and relatively scarce) 
>> BBSs and when you heard the tone hit the switch that put the modem on 
>> the phone line and you would see the carrier and data lamps do their 
>> thing. That was 1978ish.
> 
> Aside:  I assume that you're talking about before the small 6-position 2 
> or 4 conductor plugs.  Or are you referring to the older than that 
> not-quite-square 4 pin plug?  Or was the modem actually hard wired in 
> with no plug / jack at all?

For a lot of years the older hardware TELCO had ws still in place.
I still have a 500 series deskset and it works well!  So at that time
I connected using whatever ways needed, sometimes I upgraded to makes it
easier next time.

Modular is the RJ stuff newer and still in use, the older was the
larger clunky 4 pin plug.  My house still has a few.


>> A modem that could dial was maybe 1983-5 or so at affordable prices 
>> (under 300$) for 300 baud.
> 
> *nod*
> 
> I have this mental picture, which I think is based on something I've 
> seen at some point in the past, that was a device that attached / 
> actuated / ??? a traditional rotary dial phone.  As in it had a finger 
> that interfaced with the dial and something that could rotate it to dial 
> the digit in question, rewind (term?), and dial the next digit in question.
> 

Wild idea but never saw that one.  I have the advantage of spanning
computing from late 60s to now.  The intersting case was 1970, PDP10
with PDP8I the 8I did all the communications between the 10 (blkio)
and the modem bank which was dial in only.  Over 300 users on the BOCES
LIRICS computer network and 98% of them were ASR33 with 110baud
acoustic coupled modem.  the last 2% were ASR35 and Hazeltine 1000 and
2000 terminals in the center (local 1200baud!).

So I remember pre-carterphone to 56K modems, then DSL and now fiber.
My memory of carterphone was a interconnect for radios (Amateur radio)
and how we then just did it being very careful with transformer
isolation.  By 1970 I was working in the land mobile industry with
remote base radios connected with RTL (Radio Tie Lines) which were just
a pair of rented wires (owned by TPC aka telco) between the business to
the hill where the radios were.  They had to pass DC and every so often
some bright eyes would add load coils and effectively short out the
line.  That would cause a day of troubleshooting as it was never the
TPCs fault.  At least according to them.

Allison

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 15:32:28 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 13:32:28 -0700
Subject: Catatonic Rockwell AIM-65
In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B8E9@mail.bensene.com>
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B8E9@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKUFb_a_OUnXqaAr9=zR94OK64hCQK4S=FW7S2dxKoDDQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 8:10 PM Rick Bensene via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> I guess maybe I need to dig out my logic analyzer, and monitor the address and data busses, and trace out what is actually happening.

What kind of logic analyzer? For an HP 16500 series logic analyzer
there is a 6502 Inverse Assembler available, which would at least let
you see how far the CPU gets from fetching the reset vector to where
things go wrong, if the CPU is working enough to be trying to fetch
code from ROM.

From systems.glitch at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 15:54:23 2019
From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 16:54:23 -0400
Subject: PDP-11/10 PSU Repair/Warning
Message-ID: <CAA+dubKahCLiaeOefECP7iySa4CA9aY0ZR0o00cQ37AmCo_XcA@mail.gmail.com>

full writeup here: http://www.glitchwrks.com/2019/06/05/pdp1110-psu-repair

I finally fixed the power supply in my PDP-11/10S, it turned out to be a
shorted bridge rectifier on the 5411086 board, which provides +15 VDC, LTC,
and AC LO/DC LO. Unfortunately, when it failed, the rectifier burned up the
edge connector traces for the AC input to the board. I ended up cutting the
edge connector traces away (what was left) and soldering on a pigtail to
connect to the Mate-n-Lok coming from the AC transformer. I added a 15A
inline fuse, in the repair.

For those who have original 5411086s that haven't failed yet, you might
want to make up a little pigtail with an inline fuse holder. It'd be easy
to make up such that it could plug into the existing harness without
permanent modification, and it'll save your edge connector traces if the
rectifier shorts. It can happen in the other regulator modules too, but
they use a Mate-n-Lok instead of an edge connector, so any damage would be
repairable.

Anyway, the PDP-11/10S is back up and running!

Thanks,
Jonathan

From johnl at johnlabovitz.com  Wed Jun  5 16:08:53 2019
From: johnl at johnlabovitz.com (John Labovitz)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 17:08:53 -0400
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <849ddbe7-0923-e48b-be47-ff8d1e309585@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <849ddbe7-0923-e48b-be47-ff8d1e309585@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <2F92D99B-EE65-46FD-A3C8-F77FEC1C0879@johnlabovitz.com>

This talk of auto-dialers reminded me of a couple of things from modem culture?

I ran a BBS when I was a teenager in Maryland in the early 80s. We only had one phone line (like most everyone else), but being a BBS aficionado I?d heard of a technique called ?callback? that some BBSes implemented, which allowed for using a POTS line for both dial-up modem and for voice. The idea was that if you wanted to dial into a BBS with callback, you?d dial up, let it ring once, hang up, then call back; the modem on the BBS system would only answer on the *second* call. The software (in my case, the BYE modem/IO handler that run on my CP/M system) would watch the ring-detect line on the serial port, and once it went high, it would set a timer for a little more than six seconds (2 for the ring, 4 for the silence). If the timer expired, it would set a flag to answer on the *next* ring ? which would have been the second call. If a ring came in before the timer fired, it would ignore the call ? assuming it was *not* a computer calling in, but rather a voice call. And if no call came in within a few seconds more, the state would reset for a new call. It worked pretty well, as long as the BBS callers knew how to use callback. After a few months of those shenanigans my parents allowed me to order a second dedicated line, so they wouldn?t be woken up in the middle of the night.

The other thing I remember was discovering variable baud rates. The UART in my Heathkit H89 could be set to *any* rate between 1 and 9600 (?) baud. (Setting it to 1 baud was very educational!) Similarly, my Hayes Smartmodem would auto-detect both local and remote speed. It turned out that even though the modem was rated for 300 baud, it could actually be pushed to 450 or sometimes 600 ? and some other modems (like the PMMI 103, a popular S-100 modem) would do the same. So I advertised both 300 & 450 baud for my BBS. 450 felt so fast! :)

?John

From sieler at allegro.com  Wed Jun  5 18:05:41 2019
From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 16:05:41 -0700
Subject: tape seals?
Message-ID: <CAKZvcPhDqBa1KEqbV+Zw-z92dQ6PoFui=U97bdfPJ4WBOnze_A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I think someone was looking for tape seals for 9 track tapes, a few weeks
ago.

If they can contact me offline, I have about 20 of varying sizes for
shipping cost or local pickup.

Stan
sieler at allegro.com

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 18:13:02 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 19:13:02 -0400
Subject: PDP-11/10 PSU Repair/Warning
In-Reply-To: <CAA+dubKahCLiaeOefECP7iySa4CA9aY0ZR0o00cQ37AmCo_XcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA+dubKahCLiaeOefECP7iySa4CA9aY0ZR0o00cQ37AmCo_XcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucKoTPmFqQZF+2SJ_jyGto3twid54jTkfLfb6mYvZS7Qg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 4:54 PM systems_glitch via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> full writeup here: http://www.glitchwrks.com/2019/06/05/pdp1110-psu-repair
>
> I finally fixed the power supply in my PDP-11/10S, it turned out to be a
> shorted bridge rectifier on the 5411086 board, which provides +15 VDC, LTC,
> and AC LO/DC LO.
>

<snip>


>
> Anyway, the PDP-11/10S is back up and running!
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan
>


cool beans.

Bill

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Jun  5 21:39:33 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 20:39:33 -0600
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051052360.28174@shell.lmi.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAALmimn=57cQnVZMRYwasMzW1YNQFS=OpbfvC_GYhZVMA=a1Zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3a5facd3-7a3c-f47c-ece4-6929614c6d28@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051052360.28174@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <d821373f-9f9e-6554-8e0e-1216fa8f03e8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/5/19 12:01 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> "MODEM" is short for "MODulator-DEModulator"
> It is explicitly a device that took data and "MODULATED" it into audio 
> tones for the phone, and took tones from the phone and "DEMODULATED" 
> them into data.

Yes.  That's generally what a modem is.  Data on one side and something 
else on the other side.  The other side could be audio like the handset 
of a phone, or it could be a phone line, or it could be coax for a cable 
modem.

Most of the modems that I've seen were data on one side and phone lines 
on the other side.  Conversely the modem that Ethan was talking about 
had data on one side and the audio portion on the other side.  The phone 
was required as an integral piece to convert the audio from the modem to 
the phone line required by the PSTN.  The modem would not work without 
the phone.  Where as most modems, the pone isn't involved and / or can 
be completely absent.

> Bell 103 used one frequency for 1 and another for 0, and a different 
> pair for the other side, to at least in theory permit full-duplex.
> 1270Hz/1070Hz and 2225Hz/2025Hz
> 
> A couple of my students tried to make an almost entirely software based 
> modem that just counted the waves.
> 
> If you calculate how many waves of the tone you get at 300 per second, 
> you can see why the speed could not be increased [MUCH].
> "it is impossible to go faster than that"
> 
> Later systems to try to speed things up went to PHASE-shift keying, "it 
> is impossible to go faster than that"
> quadrature, etc.
> "it is impossible to go faster than that"
> even compression? ("56K" V.90,etc.)
> each of which had its own theoretical speed limits, and "it is 
> impossible to go faster than that"

Intriguing.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Jun  5 22:00:06 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 21:00:06 -0600
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <2F92D99B-EE65-46FD-A3C8-F77FEC1C0879@johnlabovitz.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <849ddbe7-0923-e48b-be47-ff8d1e309585@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <2F92D99B-EE65-46FD-A3C8-F77FEC1C0879@johnlabovitz.com>
Message-ID: <bdb50db4-0261-9a23-fa7a-cf16a5855621@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/5/19 3:08 PM, John Labovitz via cctalk wrote:
> being a BBS aficionado I?d heard of a technique called ?callback? 
> that some BBSes implemented, which allowed for using a POTS line for 
> both dial-up modem and for voice. The idea was that if you wanted 
> to dial into a BBS with callback, you?d dial up, let it ring once, 
> hang up, then call back; the modem on the BBS system would only answer 
> on the *second* call.

That's a decidedly different meaning for callback than I'm used to hearing.

I'm used to it being applied in a security context.  As in you would 
call into a system, identify yourself, hang up, and then it would call 
back the number stored on file for the account.  So calls going in 
opposing directions.

I guess this could have also been used to alter which end paid for 
calls.  The first call would be short and relatively inexpensive.  The 
second call (back) would be longer and could be expensive and take 
advantage of better long distance rates as applicable.

> The software (in my case, the BYE modem/IO handler that run on 
> my CP/M system) would watch the ring-detect line on the serial port, 
> and once it went high, it would set a timer for a little more than 
> six seconds (2 for the ring, 4 for the silence). If the timer expired, 
> it would set a flag to answer on the *next* ring ? which would have 
> been the second call. If a ring came in before the timer fired, it 
> would ignore the call ? assuming it was *not* a computer calling in, 
> but rather a voice call. And if no call came in within a few seconds 
> more, the state would reset for a new call. It worked pretty well, as 
> long as the BBS callers knew how to use callback. After a few months 
> of those shenanigans my parents allowed me to order a second dedicated 
> line, so they wouldn?t be woken up in the middle of the night.

Intriguing technique.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Jun  5 22:06:09 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 21:06:09 -0600
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906050931450.28174@shell.lmi.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906050931450.28174@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <2a7e4d70-7fd2-b0b2-f826-c6f9cd79c3eb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/5/19 11:38 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> Typically a thick flat disk that clipped to the dial, with a motor and a 
> clutch to permit the dial and disk to return to rest position.

That sounds suspiciously like you've seen something like I was trying to 
describe.

> But, a FINGER is such a better visual image!

;-)

> Prior to Carterfone V Western Electric, (1968) . . .
> 
> There were DAAs RENTED by TPC ("The Phone Company" (cf, "The President's 
> Analyst")), dialers RENTED by TPC, and acoustic couplers in the 
> after-market.
> 
> There were devices that sat on top of the "hook" of the phone (where the 
> handset rested to hang up, with the handset on top of them.? A solenoid 
> could lift the handset for "off-hook", and set it down again for hang-up.
> In some cases, such as answering machines, that sandwich in between the 
> phone and handset had speaker and microphone, but I don't recall ever 
> seeing a modem made that way - "common sense" held that you needed 
> "cups" for the handset for noise isolation.

I've seen something conceptually similar within the last 10 years to 
take a handset off hook in support of a wireless headset.

> Carterfone was extremely significant as it allowed connecting to the 
> phone line "if it did not damage or interfere with normal operations".

ACK

> Carter started trying to peddle his systems in 1959, but AT&T So, 
> Carterfone is to thank for all direct connect telephone devices, indeed, 
> all "foreign attachments", even a plastic cup that clipped on the phone 
> handset for a little more privacy!
> AT&T rejected ANYTHING that connected, on the grounds that even that 
> plastic privacy cup degraded the quality of the sound.
> http://www.historyofcomputercommunications.info/Book/1/1.2CarterfoneATT_FCC48-67.html 

I can't say as I'm surprised.

> Prior to Carterfone, you had acoustic couplers, switch-hook solenoids, 
> DAAs RENTED by TPC, and only TPC dialers. Once direct connection was 
> available, you got things like the PhoneMate dialer, and moving piece of 
> mylar with marks and photocells.
> 
> Later, "Touch tone" made it possible to "dial" by making noises into the 
> phone, both simple dialers (cf. Hayes "ATDT") and simple devices to 
> implement the full set of DTMF tones (cf. blue boxes, and DTMF C-tone to 
> turn off FBI phone recording taps)
> 
> "Hayes Compatible" was a marketing term to describe anything that used 
> the same (orsimilar) commands as Hayes.? But, Hayes, themselves, never 
> fully created a standard.? Joe Campbell ("C Programmers Guide To Serial 
> Communications", "The RS232 Solution", etc.) once consulted for Hayes to 
> try to help them make such a standard out of the myriad devices they 
> already had extant.

ACK



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From useddec at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 22:07:41 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 22:07:41 -0500
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <201906050257.x552vGcU077119@ultimate.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <201906050257.x552vGcU077119@ultimate.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMMTOqnAPKLAmKzgZ_rizV3hUVt_Y1f_S4VhrJoESPSoA@mail.gmail.com>

I think the DN11 had several options available, but don't recall much about
them. I have one left if you need a look at it.

Paul

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 9:57 PM Phil Budne via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> See the v6 dn (IV) man page:
>
> http://man.cat-v.org/unix-6th/4/dn
>
> NAME
>      dn - DN-11 ACU interface
>
> DESCRIPTION
>      The dn?  files are write-only.  The permissible codes are:
>
>          0-9 dial 0-9
>          :   dial *
>          ;   dial #
>          -   4 second delay for second dial tone
>          =   end-of-number
>
>      The entire telephone number must be presented in a single
>      write system call.
>
>      It is recommended that an end-of-number code be given even
>      though not all ACU's actually require it.
> ....
>

From mark at matlockfamily.com  Wed Jun  5 22:19:13 2019
From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 22:19:13 -0500
Subject: Catatonic Rockwell AIM-65
Message-ID: <88AE1453-10BE-4A8D-A48B-0DC28C940003@MatlockFamily.com>

Rick,
   I have a Rockwell AIM-65 and back in the day did a lot of laboratory data acquisition and other things with them. I interfaced one to an atomic absorption graphite furnace  to collect the readings and compute the parts per billion of various trace minerals in samples to translate 6 bit ticker tape code at 66.67 baud to 9600 baud ascii for a PDP-11/44. I did development on the AIM-65 and then transferred the code on EPROMs to Rockwell RM6500 single board cards usually. At home I made a ballistic chronometer with some aluminum foil and a resistor and my trusty AIM-65.

   The most interesting project was an instrument I designed to measure how stable a vegetable oil was to oxidation. The AIM-65 would test 16 samples using a wire wrapped relay board to sequence through the signals, an Intersil 7109 12 bit A/D chip, a conductivity circuit, 32 Kbytes of RAM to hold data for plotting and a small 4 inch wide Radio Shack Pen Plotter. We built about five of them to use within our company, but had requests from customers for the instruments. Eventually, we out licensed the patents to an external company and I rewrote the software to run on a IBM PC. Later I rewrote the software in LabVIEW and it still runs in many labs where vegetable oils are refined or used. The analytical method  for it is called the ?Oil Stability Index? and I wrote the official method (AOCS Cd12b-92) that defines it. If you search for ?Oil Stability Index? you?ll find it is widely used in the field. It is also sometimes called the Rancimat method after another automated instrument introduced later that works in the same way.

  When I do get my AIM-65 out to play, it often is catatonic at first. I?ve found that (at least for mine) it is related to the inexpensive IC sockets Rockwell used in it. Usually some Deoxit or tuner cleaner on the sockets and reseating some ROM chips is all that is needed to get it going. That said you certainly could have more complicated issues as well.

Best,
Mark


From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 06:43:40 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:43:40 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 at 20:06, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> I don't think that my Fossil (Palm-OS WATCH) does IRDA.
> I should find somebody who will pay me money for such a piece of
> crap^H^H^H^H NEAT technology.

Good question. I was slightly tempted when they were being sold off
cheap at the end of production, but I resisted. I was never a big fan
of PalmOS, TBH. Too limited for me as a former Psion user, and the
Palm devices were always very tied to a PC -- they were meant to be a
way to take your Outlook (or whatever) address book and diary with you
in your pocket. I didn't use Outlook or a desktop PC PIM at all. I
used my Psions for that stuff. It multitasked with anything, had a
better richer calendar app than any PC product ever written, was more
reliable than any general-purpose desktop PC ever, and fit in my
pocket and ran for a month on 2 AA cells.

I suspect that one of the things that contributed to Psion's downfall
is that AFAIK they never really cracked the US market, which was
dominated by weird expensive little gadgets that tried to be a tiny,
hopelessly-compromised generic PC in a tiny form-factor -- things
like, well:

> NOTE:
> I consider the OQOs (XP or Linux in a pocket; need to sell off of a bunch
> of them), and the Fossil to be "Classic" even if they don't follow a
> 10-year/20-year/30-year guideline :-)

... like the OQO, the Poqet, the DIP Portfolio, the HP LX and Omnigo range, etc.

In the 1990s and indeed the first decade of the 2000s, it was, on the
face of it, clear plain and obvious that you couldn't fit a generic PC
clone that you'd actually want to use into your pocket, and if you
compromised it so you could, it would be horrid: either it would have
a battery life roughly as long as a hummingbird orgasm, or it would be
a PC with the capabilities of a desktop from a decade or 2 earlier.

So, an early 1980s PC class machine in the 1990s -- HP LX etc. -- or a
1990s laptop in the noughties.

The result was, to my European eyes, a succession of overpriced,
underspecified, clever but undesirable gadgets. And the response to
_that_ was the Palm range, which were just an accessory to a business
PC.

I didn't want either.

The European solution was different. It said: "OK then, we can't fit
the hardware to run a desktop OS into a pocket and deliver a good
experience, so what we'll do is this: we'll fit the best hardware we
can on a budget and with decent power consumption so it doesn't run
out inconveniently fast, and we'll write bespoke software to run on it
to deliver the functionality customers actually need."

The result was first, the Psions.

A little later, in the Nordic countries, the Nokia mobile phones.

Psion's first try, the MC laptops.

http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=737&st=1

Neat hardware, clever OS, but decent PC laptops were coming. So they
shrank it into the Psion Series 3 range:

http://www.retroisle.com/others/psion/series3/general.php

I suspect many American readers have never seen or held one of these
so it might be worth a read.

http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/4020/Psion-Series-3/

https://stevelitchfield.com/historyofpsion.htm

The Series 3 had a small screen but an elegant multitasking GUI OS on
an 8086. Optimised for keyboard operation, no touchscreen. Very rich
PIM apps -- seriously, unsurpassed on any other platform. Rock-solid
OS. Only connected to PCs for backing up.

The range gradually got bigger screens and more RAM over the next few years.

Then they realised they'd reached the end of the line fort the
hardware, rewrote the OS in C++ for ARM and did the Psion 5 range:

https://thenewstack.io/retrocomputing-in-modern-times-rediscovering-the-psion-series-5mx/

An Australian assessment:

http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc/m5palm.htm

When Psion saw that the writing was on the wall for PDAs without
wireless comms, they formed Symbian, rewrote the OS to have a comms
stack, and moved successfully into smartphones.

There were some missteps though. The OS was written in C++ before the
language was really ready, and so it went its own, non-standard way.

(The same problem arguably afflicted Be and BeOS.)

There was no standard GUI for Symbian: they led each licensee do their
own, with no source-code compatibility. That was a big mistake. As a
result, there were several:
* UIQ on Sony Ericsson devices
* Nokia Series 60 -- for candybar phones with a numeric keypad
* Nokia Series 80 -- a recreated Psion UI for the ill-fated 7700
series. That's what I bought.
* Nokia Series 80 -- for the QWERTY-equipped Communicators, somewhat
inspired by Geos and the HP OmniGo
* MOAP by NTT DoCoMo -- Japanese market only

Then later, realising this was a mess, they tried to reconcile them,
flailing around with a Qt abstraction later, buying TrollTech to do
it, and other efforts, but it was too little too late.

Symbian had some unique attributes. E.g. it was the *only* smartphone
OS to offer good enough realtime for single-CPU phones, running the
comms stack on the same CPU as the user-facing GUI. *EVERY* other
vendor had to run a separate CPU for the networking and comms.

But in the end, the American version won out. The iPhone had a
radically simpler UI, in a single stroke obliterating Symbian and
after a few years Blackberry too.

The only survivor was Android.

Designed by Android Inc as an OS for digital cameras:

https://www.androidauthority.com/history-android-os-name-789433/

... acquired by Google and repurposed for a Blackberry clone -- this:

https://www.theverge.com/2012/4/25/2974676/this-was-the-original-google-phone-presented-in-2006

https://www.pcworld.com/article/254539/original_android_prototype_revealed_during_google_oracle_trial.html

And then they saw the iPhone, pivoted again and did a very successful
iPhone knock-off, just as Windows was a successful Mac System
knock-off... after the first few versions.

Result of the eventual convergence on the American model:

We have amazingly sophisticated, high-spec smartphones and tablets,
but they have a battery life of a single day, replacing European
phones that lasted a week and PDAs that lasted a month.

Why, no, I am *not* happy about that.

The European PDAs had excellent keyboards you could type on. My Psion
5MX paid for itself in the first weekend of ownership: on a
long-distance coach with a fold-down table the size of an iPad, I
wrote 2 articles, both of which I sold and which paid for the device.

My Nokia phones had physical keyboards and very smart software for
fast text input.

Now? No keyboards at all.

No, I am not happy about that, either.

I could read the screens of my Psion and Nokia in bright sunshine.
American-design ones are slowly edging back towards that, but it's
still difficult. Daylight-readable screens have disappeared from the
market.

I'm not happy about that, either.

My Psions and Nokias had bulletproof OSes that lasted for years
without a single update, and yes, they were Internet-connected by the
last few generations. They ran in a few tens of megabytes of
nonvolatile storage.

Now, my tablet and iPhone and Android phones need *at least* 3 or 4
apps updating every day. If I don't use one for a few weeks, it's just
like Windows -- I have to do half an hour of updates before I can use
it. The OS needs to be replaced every month or two to fix all the
flaws in it, and that's a gigabyte or so of storage.

I am *furious* about this.

"The JesusPhone, I swear it is smiling at me: Come to me. come to me
and be saved. The luscious curves, the polished glissade of the icons
in the multi-touch interface - whoever designed that thing is an
intuitive illusionist, I realise fuzzily as my fingertip closes in on
the screen: That's at least a class five glamour."
(Charles Stross, /The Fuller Memorandum/)

They're very shiny. They do a lot.

But I had a better *phone* and a better *PDA* 20 years ago. The whole
is much less than the sum of its parts.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Jun  6 09:07:16 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  6 Jun 2019 10:07:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PDP-11/10 PSU Repair/Warning
Message-ID: <20190606140716.D7EFD18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Systems Glitch

    > I finally fixed the power supply in my PDP-11/10S ... For those who
    > have original 5411086s that haven't failed yet, you might want to
    > make up a little pigtail with an inline fuse holder.

Congratulations, and a great blog write-up.

The issue you point out (lack of fusing for some components on the +15V
board) will of course apply to not just -11/10S's, but any -11 which uses
the H765, either for the CPU box (e.g. /04, /34) or for an expansion box.
This is important enough that I think I'll add a writeup to the CHWiki
article for that:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/H765_Power_System  

which restates the problem, and the proposed solution. (I also should check
to see if the H742 uses the same 15V board; it uses the same 'bricks', so
it may.)

	Noel

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 11:47:07 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 11:47:07 -0500
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmH-fEjOfWGqezLzg4uUJNCXSmq9AkY+D8p13jAF1fbUg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 6:44 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> ...I was never a big fan
> of PalmOS, TBH. Too limited for me as a former Psion user, and the
> Palm devices were always very tied to a PC -- they were meant to be a
> way to take your Outlook (or whatever) address book and diary with you
> in your pocket.

Interesting view of Palm usage that I hadn't considered.

> I didn't use Outlook or a desktop PC PIM at all.

Nor did I.  When I carried a Palm Pilot every day, I was using UNIX
'mail' for work e-mail and did all local edits of my calendar on the
Palm.  I did backup my Palm Pilot, to my Linux Laptop (I still have
backups files from 1999 in an archive folder).

What I used mine for was a clock, a local calendar, and once I got a
keyboard, a portable note-taker in meetings, plus games and other
trivial apps.  I also got a snap-on GPS and used it when making 1-2
hour flights in a small plane (battery life was an issue on longer
flights since it wasn't designed for continuous use, even with the
backlight off).  And a few times, I used a vt100 app and the standard
serial sync cable to log into and update a Cisco switch.  Thinking
back, once I had that Palm V which could stay powered on in the
cradle, I used an HD44780 LCD emulator to do desktop testing of
LCDproc, an Open Source project I still work with.  Most of this is
odd usage compared to the target market.

> [Psion] ... fit in my pocket and ran for a month on 2 AA cells.

The Palm was definitely more battery hungry.  I ended up spending a
lot of money on an early NiMh battery pack that had a replacement
battery cover that allowed for through-the-cover recharging.
Eventually, I got a used Palm V to recharge in the cradle.  I also got
an app to migrate some apps to internal Flash so I wouldn't have to
reload them when my battery did go flat.

I _did_ like carrying around a 68000-based portable machine in a day
when laptops were thick and heavy and had abysmal battery life.  I
didn't have a mobile phone for the first several years I had a Palm.
Later, when I got a phone, it made phone calls and that was it.
Co-workers did experiment with the Palm Treo phone, but that was far
too expensive for me to consider. It wasn't very integrated but I
carried two devices for a long time (I only upgraded from that phone
from 2000 (nine years later) once it was obsoleted on the network
because it lacked 911-location features and it was blocked from
re-provisioning by changes in regulation in the US market).

Because of my background writing code for the 68000, I entertained
writing apps for PalmOS but I never managed to do more than get the
SDK and fiddle around a bit.  I never completed a project from
end-to-end.

So I liked the Palm Pilot, but I didn't have a Psion to compare it to,
and I can see where you are coming from, from a user experience
standpoint.

-ethan

From useddec at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 12:19:25 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 12:19:25 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/10 PSU Repair/Warning
In-Reply-To: <20190606140716.D7EFD18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190606140716.D7EFD18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPLe+TkDU1yQZAAmbJMJo0SCAReFnKXEtxJCrCULa84bg@mail.gmail.com>

Didn't the H7420 , which replaced the H742,  use that also? The H742 uses a
different one .

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:07 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>     > From: Systems Glitch
>
>     > I finally fixed the power supply in my PDP-11/10S ... For those who
>     > have original 5411086s that haven't failed yet, you might want to
>     > make up a little pigtail with an inline fuse holder.
>
> Congratulations, and a great blog write-up.
>
> The issue you point out (lack of fusing for some components on the +15V
> board) will of course apply to not just -11/10S's, but any -11 which uses
> the H765, either for the CPU box (e.g. /04, /34) or for an expansion box.
> This is important enough that I think I'll add a writeup to the CHWiki
> article for that:
>
>   http://gunkies.org/wiki/H765_Power_System
>
> which restates the problem, and the proposed solution. (I also should check
> to see if the H742 uses the same 15V board; it uses the same 'bricks', so
> it may.)
>
>         Noel
>

From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 12:24:39 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 19:24:39 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmH-fEjOfWGqezLzg4uUJNCXSmq9AkY+D8p13jAF1fbUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmH-fEjOfWGqezLzg4uUJNCXSmq9AkY+D8p13jAF1fbUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEqaVeRH=FfHMh+bRSoqqCvryCy+GGb5YNrhQY6A-GXrw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 at 18:47, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Interesting view of Palm usage that I hadn't considered.
>
> > I didn't use Outlook or a desktop PC PIM at all.
>
> Nor did I.  When I carried a Palm Pilot every day, I was using UNIX
> 'mail' for work e-mail and did all local edits of my calendar on the
> Palm.  I did backup my Palm Pilot, to my Linux Laptop (I still have
> backups files from 1999 in an archive folder).

Wow. I have never heard anyone using one so stand-alone. Fascinating. Thanks!

> What I used mine for was [...]
>
> The Palm was definitely more battery hungry.

NEC V30 at 7.68 MHz, apparently. I guess it was a more frugal chip,
and certainly a very frugal OS.

Psion *nearly* did a deal with Palm to licence EPOC32 as the basis for
the newer ARM-based Palms. I wish that had happened -- it might have
been a much better deal than what did happen for both companies.

> Eventually, I got a used Palm V to recharge in the cradle.  I also got
> an app to migrate some apps to internal Flash so I wouldn't have to
> reload them when my battery did go flat.

I have one somewhere, but I think it won't charge any more. I should
look into cheap repairs.

> I _did_ like carrying around a 68000-based portable machine in a day
> when laptops were thick and heavy and had abysmal battery life.

I can see that, certainly.

> I
> didn't have a mobile phone for the first several years I had a Palm.
> Later, when I got a phone, it made phone calls and that was it.

Ditto for me.

> Co-workers did experiment with the Palm Treo phone, but that was far
> too expensive for me to consider.

I reviewed an "HP OmniGo 700LKX" with docked Nokia.

 http://www.tankraider.com/DOSPALMTOP/hp700lx.html

That was an amazing device, albeit huge, but you could see the
potential. I loved doing wireless IRC and email on the sofa.

> It wasn't very integrated but I
> carried two devices for a long time (I only upgraded from that phone
> from 2000 (nine years later) once it was obsoleted on the network
> because it lacked 911-location features and it was blocked from
> re-provisioning by changes in regulation in the US market).

Aha. I had a Motorola tri-band TimePort 7089:

http://www.mobilecollectors.net/phone/997/Motorola-Timeport%20L7089

This didn't do predictive text, so I linked it to the Psion via IRDA
and texted from a Psion app.

Then I got a Nokia 6310i:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_6310i

This did T9 wonderfully quickly, but linked via IRDA to my Psion 5 and
later 5MX. I could even make a PPP connection and do email and the
web, slowly but just occasionally amazingly useful. I could also sync,
sort and internationalise my phonebook, backup my SMSes and so on. For
the time, the integration was good.

The Timeport is probably around the time I found myself in a London
pub with a visiting American friend. My friends and I were using SMS
messages to organise when and where to meet. The American commented
that sadly American phones didn't do that and didn't support such
features.

I told them that they did. No, nossir, no way, nope.

So I asked for their number and texted them.

The phone made a noise they'd never heard before and a tiny envelope
appeared above the clock.

They were so shocked and taken aback they nearly suffered an
embarrasing self-control favour. I had to show them how to open the
message. They were utterly aghast.

Probably cost us about $1 each to send and to receive -- years later I
discovered that what drove things like iMessage and WhatsApp is that
American cellphone users paid to _receive_ text messages. This blew
the minds of every European who learned it. We paid a tiny amount to
send them, under 5?, and only when the few thousand you got for free
every month were exhausted -- but no European network ever charged to
_receive_ SMS. Amazing stuff.

> Because of my background writing code for the 68000, I entertained
> writing apps for PalmOS but I never managed to do more than get the
> SDK and fiddle around a bit.  I never completed a project from
> end-to-end.
>
> So I liked the Palm Pilot, but I didn't have a Psion to compare it to,
> and I can see where you are coming from, from a user experience
> standpoint.

I guess the killer thing for me was the keyboard. I did learn Graffiti
-- on a Newton, at first -- but I found it slow and clunky. Psions
were like tiny laptops that went into a jacket pocket. 25-30 hours of
continuous use on 2 AA alkalines, a daylight-readable screen, a
keyboard you could hi-speed thumb-type on (series 3) or touch-type on
(series 5). Usable held in both hands, or if placed on a desk, the
superb hinge designs meant that the screen and keyboard were at a
usable angle, and touchscreen models didn't tip over. 2 storage slots,
wired and wireless comms, sound recording and playback. Nothing ever
came close.

An HP LX was like using a DOS PC compared to a colour Mac.

Annoying music but a demo of a late-model Series 3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlv1naXDYHs

Demo of the radically different, 32-bit, RISC-based, Psion 5:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nEBnDB79XA

Dropped the dual proprietary storage slots, replaced with 1 standard CF slot.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Thu Jun  6 12:30:35 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 11:30:35 -0600
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEqaVeRH=FfHMh+bRSoqqCvryCy+GGb5YNrhQY6A-GXrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmH-fEjOfWGqezLzg4uUJNCXSmq9AkY+D8p13jAF1fbUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEqaVeRH=FfHMh+bRSoqqCvryCy+GGb5YNrhQY6A-GXrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bfb6f9d1-d859-12ba-8d25-d5ed3d60ef9c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/6/19 11:24 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> Wow. I have never heard anyone using one so 
> stand-alone. Fascinating. Thanks!

Most of the Palm users I knew, myself included, used their Palm largely 
stand alone.  Almost all of us backed up (synced) our device to our 
computers as a backup in case of device corruption.  Some of us did use 
Palm Desktop as a convenient interface (PIM) to what was on our palms. 
But the Palm was largely stand alone.

I did know a few people that synced with Outlook (and other things).

The person that introduced me to Palms and I did play with network based 
syncing and had it working reliably at work.

> I did learn Graffiti -- on a Newton, at first -- but I found it slow 
> and clunky.

I found myself, along with a few other Palm users, using Graffiti on 
paper, because it was faster than traditional letters.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Jun  6 12:38:35 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 10:38:35 -0700
Subject: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics)
 running in MAME
Message-ID: <066502a6-b9d6-0b12-364c-00037b83cf42@bitsavers.org>

pretty cool..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6E0_qgfGGQ


From spectre at floodgap.com  Thu Jun  6 12:44:57 2019
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 10:44:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Palm usage was Re: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmH-fEjOfWGqezLzg4uUJNCXSmq9AkY+D8p13jAF1fbUg@mail.gmail.com> from
 Ethan Dicks via cctalk at "Jun 6, 19 11:47:07 am"
Message-ID: <201906061744.x56Hiv4p13107420@floodgap.com>

> > ...I was never a big fan
> > of PalmOS, TBH. Too limited for me as a former Psion user, and the
> > Palm devices were always very tied to a PC -- they were meant to be a
> > way to take your Outlook (or whatever) address book and diary with you
> > in your pocket.
> 
> Interesting view of Palm usage that I hadn't considered.
> 
> > I didn't use Outlook or a desktop PC PIM at all.
> 
> Nor did I.  When I carried a Palm Pilot every day, I was using UNIX
> 'mail' for work e-mail and did all local edits of my calendar on the
> Palm.  I did backup my Palm Pilot, to my Linux Laptop (I still have
> backups files from 1999 in an archive folder).

Not sure if this counts as "connected" but I used Palm Desktop itself for
my personal scheduling. I never used my Palms (an m505 and a Zire 72) for
E-mail, though. It did mostly note-taking, calendar and pharmacy work, and
some programming (in Plua).

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- If elected, I will win. -- Pat Paulsen for President -----------------------

From ethan at 757.org  Thu Jun  6 12:45:49 2019
From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:45:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics)
 running in MAME
In-Reply-To: <066502a6-b9d6-0b12-364c-00037b83cf42@bitsavers.org>
References: <066502a6-b9d6-0b12-364c-00037b83cf42@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906061343540.10932@users.757.org>



> pretty cool..
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6E0_qgfGGQ

Very cool, but very strange at the same time. I guess the MAME people ran 
out of Arcade machines! Impressive!

Wonder if they will ever be able to emulate like Infinite Reality graphics 
with older NVidia cards.

 		 - Ethan

--
: Ethan O'Toole



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Jun  6 12:55:19 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 10:55:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEqaVeRH=FfHMh+bRSoqqCvryCy+GGb5YNrhQY6A-GXrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmH-fEjOfWGqezLzg4uUJNCXSmq9AkY+D8p13jAF1fbUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEqaVeRH=FfHMh+bRSoqqCvryCy+GGb5YNrhQY6A-GXrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906061034430.7652@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> Wow. I have never heard anyone using one [Palm] so stand-alone. 
> Fascinating. Thanks!

I used my Palm(s) completely stand-alone.
I did not "synchronize" them with PC, other than a token backup to confirm 
process.  And I never used it as a peripheral to the PC.
I did transfer a few files back and forth between Palm and PC; for 
example, for a conference, I copied a file with the conference schedule 
to the Palm.

I used the Fossil (Palm-OS) VERY briefly, in the same way.  The watchband 
on it is still new and stiff.


I used Atari Portfolio and Poqet a bit.  AND, when I needed to research 
and learn TSRs, I did so on them!  Poqet was MS-DOS 5.00.  Portfolio was 
imitation-DOS, but close enough that they had implemented the undocumented 
calls that TSRs used.  I wrote the [text-mode] screen capture TSR for 
XenoFont on them.  (For a while, Sybex used the screen capture and 
screen printing routines of XenoFont for all of their text-mode books.
Then, I wrote the XenoSoft Sales Tax Genie on the Poqet.

Yes, I tested everything on CGA, MDA, Hercules, EGA, VGA, 286, 386, 486, 
Pentium.  But why bother using those on 80x86 projects that were not 
performance intensive?  Nothing becomes USELESS just because there now 
exists something bigger and faster.


I used the OQOs (XP) extensively for email and web browsing.  (Before 
Android smartphones)


Until presbyopia did me in, I had no problem with tiny screens, if they 
had enough resolution.  I could read microfilm without a viewer, and could 
easily see the grain in photos.  When the ophthalmalogist asked me to read 
the smallest line on the eye chart, he had to walk over to it before he 
would believe me that it said, "Copyright Bausch and Lomb".  Now, I can't 
even read printed text without at least +2.5


I would hope that the keyboard for Palm would at least use Grafiti font 
for its keycaps    :-)

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From sophaskins at sophaskins.net  Thu Jun  6 12:58:13 2019
From: sophaskins at sophaskins.net (Sophie Haskins)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 17:58:13 +0000
Subject: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics)
 running in MAME
In-Reply-To: <066502a6-b9d6-0b12-364c-00037b83cf42@bitsavers.org>
References: <066502a6-b9d6-0b12-364c-00037b83cf42@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <DM5PR1801MB1961DA7C2B23D9988FA923F1AB170@DM5PR1801MB1961.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Al Kossow via
> cctalk
> Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:39 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics)
> running in MAME
> 
> pretty cool..
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6E0_qgfGGQ


A while back I uploaded a few minutes of the "ElectroPaint" screensaver captured from an Indy w/ a framegrabber. If that's your thing, it's here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl3mF-wKWgg

Sophie

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Jun  6 13:17:52 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  6 Jun 2019 14:17:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PDP-11/10 PSU Repair/Warning
Message-ID: <20190606181752.B2FC118C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Paul Anderson

    >> (I also should check to see if the H742 uses the same 15V board; it
    >> uses the same 'bricks', so it may.)

    > Didn't the H7420 , which replaced the H742, use that also? The H742 uses
    > a different one .

Oooh, good catch! The H742 uses a 5409730, but the H7420 does use the 5411086,
the same as in the H765. I always wondered what the difference was between the
H742 and H7420.

I wonder if the two boards (and thus the the power harness) have an identical
pinout, or not.

	Noel

From cliendo at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 13:24:56 2019
From: cliendo at gmail.com (Christian Liendo)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 14:24:56 -0400
Subject: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics)
 running in MAME
In-Reply-To: <066502a6-b9d6-0b12-364c-00037b83cf42@bitsavers.org>
References: <066502a6-b9d6-0b12-364c-00037b83cf42@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAA9iAftJU2vGAY=4kBfGJ1kZmWS=1jukpc1xO_tk7KfJ2Hjamg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 1:52 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> pretty cool..
>

I agree..
I remember someone ported GLTron as a screen saver for SGI and Mac as
well. Probably my favorite screensaver

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8FWro9sFJc

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Jun  6 13:46:48 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 11:46:48 -0700
Subject: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics)
 running in MAME
In-Reply-To: <CAA9iAftJU2vGAY=4kBfGJ1kZmWS=1jukpc1xO_tk7KfJ2Hjamg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <066502a6-b9d6-0b12-364c-00037b83cf42@bitsavers.org>
 <CAA9iAftJU2vGAY=4kBfGJ1kZmWS=1jukpc1xO_tk7KfJ2Hjamg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b0f4c17-7527-3b33-2582-8ef718511512@bitsavers.org>



On 6/6/19 11:24 AM, Christian Liendo via cctalk wrote:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8FWro9sFJc
> 

http://www.2cool4me.de/

is dead, dead, dead.

gltron apparently doesn't even survive at IA unless it moved



From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Jun  6 13:50:18 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 11:50:18 -0700
Subject: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics)
 running in MAME
In-Reply-To: <4b0f4c17-7527-3b33-2582-8ef718511512@bitsavers.org>
References: <066502a6-b9d6-0b12-364c-00037b83cf42@bitsavers.org>
 <CAA9iAftJU2vGAY=4kBfGJ1kZmWS=1jukpc1xO_tk7KfJ2Hjamg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b0f4c17-7527-3b33-2582-8ef718511512@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <d1c0126b-8189-9682-80b1-d31dc59757d9@bitsavers.org>

just dead on the site associated with the video

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLtron

On 6/6/19 11:46 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 6/6/19 11:24 AM, Christian Liendo via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8FWro9sFJc
>>
> 
> http://www.2cool4me.de/
> 
> is dead, dead, dead.
> 
> gltron apparently doesn't even survive at IA unless it moved
> 
> 


From cctalk at ibm51xx.net  Thu Jun  6 14:06:30 2019
From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2019 12:06:30 -0700
Subject: WTB: V53C104HP45 DRAM
Message-ID: <3dnxxumdc0avmr1vbtrq5hye.1559847973023@email.android.com>

Long shot but any one have any V53C104HP45 they care to part with? TIA-Ali

From systems.glitch at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 14:08:39 2019
From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 15:08:39 -0400
Subject: PDP-11/10 PSU Repair/Warning
In-Reply-To: <20190606181752.B2FC118C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190606181752.B2FC118C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAA+dubKLQWUFqyLV+w7ijwRsiy=ipptiP=0F-4TW3d6Nh3MJew@mail.gmail.com>

I believe the big difference was in the current-supplying capability on the
+15V rail -- 1A vs. 4A. I haven't had to dig into a 5409730 though, and
haven't looked through the print sets. I believe it was mentioned as an
upgrade thing in one of the technical manuals I'd read some time ago.

It would be easy to make up a new harness to swap one in place of the
other, since the 5411086 goes to a Mate-n-Lok that plugs into the power
distribution board.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 2:17 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>     > From: Paul Anderson
>
>     >> (I also should check to see if the H742 uses the same 15V board; it
>     >> uses the same 'bricks', so it may.)
>
>     > Didn't the H7420 , which replaced the H742, use that also? The H742
> uses
>     > a different one .
>
> Oooh, good catch! The H742 uses a 5409730, but the H7420 does use the
> 5411086,
> the same as in the H765. I always wondered what the difference was between
> the
> H742 and H7420.
>
> I wonder if the two boards (and thus the the power harness) have an
> identical
> pinout, or not.
>
>         Noel
>

From echristopherson at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 14:40:29 2019
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 14:40:29 -0500
Subject: Plua - Offlist reply (Re: Palm usage was Re: Modems and external
 dialers.)
In-Reply-To: <201906061744.x56Hiv4p13107420@floodgap.com>
References: <CAALmimmH-fEjOfWGqezLzg4uUJNCXSmq9AkY+D8p13jAF1fbUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <201906061744.x56Hiv4p13107420@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <CADyB93CAKLMBbhjDt2Di_f=YwFJ_4kZm4DQuWxnQ1BHSRpowDQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 12:45 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > > ...I was never a big fan
> > > of PalmOS, TBH. Too limited for me as a former Psion user, and the
> > > Palm devices were always very tied to a PC -- they were meant to be a
> > > way to take your Outlook (or whatever) address book and diary with you
> > > in your pocket.
> >
> > Interesting view of Palm usage that I hadn't considered.
> >
> > > I didn't use Outlook or a desktop PC PIM at all.
> >
> > Nor did I.  When I carried a Palm Pilot every day, I was using UNIX
> > 'mail' for work e-mail and did all local edits of my calendar on the
> > Palm.  I did backup my Palm Pilot, to my Linux Laptop (I still have
> > backups files from 1999 in an archive folder).
>
> Not sure if this counts as "connected" but I used Palm Desktop itself for
> my personal scheduling. I never used my Palms (an m505 and a Zire 72) for
> E-mail, though. It did mostly note-taking, calendar and pharmacy work, and
> some programming (in Plua).
>

Cameron, how did you like Plua and what did you do with it? I remember
downloading it and running a few very simple things with it. I had been
looking for Python or Ruby at the time, but happened across that and
thought Lua seemed like an interesting language too. Sadly, I never got
around to learning it, though.

(I think my first exposure to Lua was through tomsrtbt, which I ran on an
old Compaq laptop; many of its scripts were in Lua. I think I read that
that let them be compact and still expressive. But after messing with that
system and not knowing my way around the scripts, I forgot about Lua until
I found Plua.)

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From echristopherson at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 14:41:42 2019
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 14:41:42 -0500
Subject: Palm usage was Re: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CADyB93CAKLMBbhjDt2Di_f=YwFJ_4kZm4DQuWxnQ1BHSRpowDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimmH-fEjOfWGqezLzg4uUJNCXSmq9AkY+D8p13jAF1fbUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <201906061744.x56Hiv4p13107420@floodgap.com>
 <CADyB93CAKLMBbhjDt2Di_f=YwFJ_4kZm4DQuWxnQ1BHSRpowDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADyB93C0vFj-dR__Aa2J5a9uRP+QUgPQzdt=FNqonqZA5F1V7w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 2:40 PM Eric Christopherson <
echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 12:45 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Not sure if this counts as "connected" but I used Palm Desktop itself for
>> my personal scheduling. I never used my Palms (an m505 and a Zire 72) for
>> E-mail, though. It did mostly note-taking, calendar and pharmacy work, and
>> some programming (in Plua).
>>
>
> Cameron, how did you like Plua and what did you do with it? I remember
> downloading it and running a few very simple things with it. I had been
> looking for Python or Ruby at the time, but happened across that and
> thought Lua seemed like an interesting language too. Sadly, I never got
> around to learning it, though.
>

Oops, sorry for sending this out to the list even though I changed the
subject line to indicate that it was offlist!

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 14:57:34 2019
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 12:57:34 -0700
Subject: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip
Message-ID: <04d001d51ca2$1611c280$42354780$@gmail.com>

All HP fans in general and Tony in particular,
I have the exact same problem. HP98035 real time clock module
(http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=168), plugged into a HP9825T
(http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=171), accepts commands, reads back
all 8's. Battery is new, is charging and at the correct voltage.
Documentation says "never run the module without the battery or it would
damage the AC5954N clock chip". When I got the module it had not battery in
it, so this is what could have happened. Tony, did you eventually repair
your module or find some data on the clock chip?
Marc
 
 
List:       classiccmp <https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&r=1&w=2> 
Subject:    AC5954N clock chip (I think)
From:       ard () p850ug1 ! demon ! co ! uk (Tony Duell)
<https://marc.info/?a=104957097300008&r=1&w=2> 
Date:       2001-08-26 22:55:32
<https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&r=1&w=2&b=200108> 
[Download RAW message
<https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=104961357310567&q=mbox>  or body
<https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=104961357310567&q=raw> ]
 
I've got a non-working HP98035 real time clock module (for HP9825, etc) 
on the bench.
 
It accepts commands, it sends something back, so I think the bus 
interface and microcontroller are all fine. The problems are : 
 
The real time reads back as 88:88:88:88:88
 
There is no activity on the crystal connected to the AC5954N clock chip 
(or at least I think it's a clock chip). Enabling the oscillator 
testpoint doesn't do a darn thing (well, the control/setting latch U7 
changes state so again the microcontroller is doing something). There is 
no activity on any of the pins on the chip.
 
It is getting power (it's not a problem with the NiCd battery).
 
I suspect the chip. Has anyone come across it? It may be a common digital 
clock/calendar chip, or at least related to one (if it is HP-custom). 
It doesn't seem to be particularly designed for a microprocessor bus -- 
the output may be for direct driving 7-segment displays or maybe a 
multiplexed BCD output to link to a display decoder/driver.
 
Thanks in advance for any help.
 
-tony

 


From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 15:27:35 2019
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 17:27:35 -0300
Subject: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip
In-Reply-To: <04d001d51ca2$1611c280$42354780$@gmail.com>
References: <04d001d51ca2$1611c280$42354780$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dc242f8-353f-c63f-0c38-48bab0569ec0@gmail.com>

Are you able to set the date and time on your clock?? I had disconnected 
one end of the diode in the charge circuit and powered the clock from a 
lithium primary cell.? I got all 8s when the battery went dead but when 
it was in that state when I tried to set the date and time any commands 
after that to the clock hung, I suspect because the nano processor got 
hung up trying to set the time.? After changing the battery it 
functioned normally again.

Paul.

On 2019-06-06 4:57 p.m., CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote:
> All HP fans in general and Tony in particular,
> I have the exact same problem. HP98035 real time clock module
> (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=168), plugged into a HP9825T
> (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=171), accepts commands, reads back
> all 8's. Battery is new, is charging and at the correct voltage.
> Documentation says "never run the module without the battery or it would
> damage the AC5954N clock chip". When I got the module it had not battery in
> it, so this is what could have happened. Tony, did you eventually repair
> your module or find some data on the clock chip?
> Marc
>   
>   
> List:       classiccmp <https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&r=1&w=2>
> Subject:    AC5954N clock chip (I think)
> From:       ard () p850ug1 ! demon ! co ! uk (Tony Duell)
> <https://marc.info/?a=104957097300008&r=1&w=2>
> Date:       2001-08-26 22:55:32
> <https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&r=1&w=2&b=200108>
> [Download RAW message
> <https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=104961357310567&q=mbox>  or body
> <https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=104961357310567&q=raw> ]
>   
> I've got a non-working HP98035 real time clock module (for HP9825, etc)
> on the bench.
>   
> It accepts commands, it sends something back, so I think the bus
> interface and microcontroller are all fine. The problems are :
>   
> The real time reads back as 88:88:88:88:88
>   
> There is no activity on the crystal connected to the AC5954N clock chip
> (or at least I think it's a clock chip). Enabling the oscillator
> testpoint doesn't do a darn thing (well, the control/setting latch U7
> changes state so again the microcontroller is doing something). There is
> no activity on any of the pins on the chip.
>   
> It is getting power (it's not a problem with the NiCd battery).
>   
> I suspect the chip. Has anyone come across it? It may be a common digital
> clock/calendar chip, or at least related to one (if it is HP-custom).
> It doesn't seem to be particularly designed for a microprocessor bus --
> the output may be for direct driving 7-segment displays or maybe a
> multiplexed BCD output to link to a display decoder/driver.
>   
> Thanks in advance for any help.
>   
> -tony
>
>   
>

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 21:40:57 2019
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 19:40:57 -0700
Subject: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip
In-Reply-To: <9dc242f8-353f-c63f-0c38-48bab0569ec0@gmail.com>
References: <04d001d51ca2$1611c280$42354780$@gmail.com>
 <9dc242f8-353f-c63f-0c38-48bab0569ec0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <04fc01d51cda$706fc8c0$514f5a40$@gmail.com>

Paul,
It will accept the set time command, but this has no effect. An error read shows code 16, "real time lost". The clock chip seems dead, nothing happening when looking at the test output after sending the test mode request.
Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Berger via cctalk
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2019 1:28 PM
To: CuriousMarc via cctalk
Subject: Re: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip

Are you able to set the date and time on your clock?  I had disconnected 
one end of the diode in the charge circuit and powered the clock from a 
lithium primary cell.  I got all 8s when the battery went dead but when 
it was in that state when I tried to set the date and time any commands 
after that to the clock hung, I suspect because the nano processor got 
hung up trying to set the time.  After changing the battery it 
functioned normally again.

Paul.

On 2019-06-06 4:57 p.m., CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote:
> All HP fans in general and Tony in particular,
> I have the exact same problem. HP98035 real time clock module
> (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=168), plugged into a HP9825T
> (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=171), accepts commands, reads back
> all 8's. Battery is new, is charging and at the correct voltage.
> Documentation says "never run the module without the battery or it would
> damage the AC5954N clock chip". When I got the module it had not battery in
> it, so this is what could have happened. Tony, did you eventually repair
> your module or find some data on the clock chip?
> Marc
>   
>   
> List:       classiccmp <https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&r=1&w=2>
> Subject:    AC5954N clock chip (I think)
> From:       ard () p850ug1 ! demon ! co ! uk (Tony Duell)
> <https://marc.info/?a=104957097300008&r=1&w=2>
> Date:       2001-08-26 22:55:32
> <https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&r=1&w=2&b=200108>
> [Download RAW message
> <https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=104961357310567&q=mbox>  or body
> <https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=104961357310567&q=raw> ]
>   
> I've got a non-working HP98035 real time clock module (for HP9825, etc)
> on the bench.
>   
> It accepts commands, it sends something back, so I think the bus
> interface and microcontroller are all fine. The problems are :
>   
> The real time reads back as 88:88:88:88:88
>   
> There is no activity on the crystal connected to the AC5954N clock chip
> (or at least I think it's a clock chip). Enabling the oscillator
> testpoint doesn't do a darn thing (well, the control/setting latch U7
> changes state so again the microcontroller is doing something). There is
> no activity on any of the pins on the chip.
>   
> It is getting power (it's not a problem with the NiCd battery).
>   
> I suspect the chip. Has anyone come across it? It may be a common digital
> clock/calendar chip, or at least related to one (if it is HP-custom).
> It doesn't seem to be particularly designed for a microprocessor bus --
> the output may be for direct driving 7-segment displays or maybe a
> multiplexed BCD output to link to a display decoder/driver.
>   
> Thanks in advance for any help.
>   
> -tony
>
>   
>


From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 22:24:53 2019
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 04:24:53 +0100
Subject: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip
In-Reply-To: <04d001d51ca2$1611c280$42354780$@gmail.com>
References: <04d001d51ca2$1611c280$42354780$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCztXHpHR0Vj6s8eoutrfP57gz2VeE__W1zhtVfvVu8OeQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 8:57 PM CuriousMarc via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> All HP fans in general and Tony in particular,
> I have the exact same problem. HP98035 real time clock module
> (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=168), plugged into a HP9825T
> (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=171), accepts commands, reads back
> all 8's. Battery is new, is charging and at the correct voltage.
> Documentation says "never run the module without the battery or it would
> damage the AC5954N clock chip". When I got the module it had not battery in
> it, so this is what could have happened. Tony, did you eventually repair
> your module or find some data on the clock chip?

I've certainly got a working 98035, but I can't remember if I repaired this one.

The clock chip seems to be a normal digital watch/clock chip. The inputs to
it are essentially the 'set' buttons, the outputs are the 7 segment lines and
digit strobes. But I have not found a data sheet on it anywhere.

-tony

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 22:44:04 2019
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 20:44:04 -0700
Subject: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip
In-Reply-To: <CAHkUCCztXHpHR0Vj6s8eoutrfP57gz2VeE__W1zhtVfvVu8OeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <04d001d51ca2$1611c280$42354780$@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCztXHpHR0Vj6s8eoutrfP57gz2VeE__W1zhtVfvVu8OeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8AA1168A-D766-4D39-8BF4-F73120F21B1A@gmail.com>

Thanks, I?ll see if I can find replacements. You can easily see how they get zapped: they are 2.5V chips, the NiCd battery *is* the voltage regulator. Charging circuit is a simple diode connected to 5V via a resistor. Battery dies, goes high impedance, somebody plugs it in to try it out and poof! Clock chip gets zapped by 5V. 
Marc

> On Jun 6, 2019, at 8:24 PM, Tony Duell <ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 8:57 PM CuriousMarc via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> All HP fans in general and Tony in particular,
>> I have the exact same problem. HP98035 real time clock module
>> (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=168), plugged into a HP9825T
>> (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=171), accepts commands, reads back
>> all 8's. Battery is new, is charging and at the correct voltage.
>> Documentation says "never run the module without the battery or it would
>> damage the AC5954N clock chip". When I got the module it had not battery in
>> it, so this is what could have happened. Tony, did you eventually repair
>> your module or find some data on the clock chip?
> 
> I've certainly got a working 98035, but I can't remember if I repaired this one.
> 
> The clock chip seems to be a normal digital watch/clock chip. The inputs to
> it are essentially the 'set' buttons, the outputs are the 7 segment lines and
> digit strobes. But I have not found a data sheet on it anywhere.
> 
> -tony

From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 22:47:24 2019
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 04:47:24 +0100
Subject: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip
In-Reply-To: <8AA1168A-D766-4D39-8BF4-F73120F21B1A@gmail.com>
References: <04d001d51ca2$1611c280$42354780$@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCztXHpHR0Vj6s8eoutrfP57gz2VeE__W1zhtVfvVu8OeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8AA1168A-D766-4D39-8BF4-F73120F21B1A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCwNHvBRSf+C+FeEpxXsrQJG357F7fmuJLi8GhEREXRvnQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 4:44 AM Curious Marc <curiousmarc3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks, I?ll see if I can find replacements. You can easily see how they get zapped: they are 2.5V chips, the NiCd battery *is* the voltage regulator. Charging circuit is a simple diode connected to 5V via a resistor. Battery dies, goes high impedance, somebody plugs it in to try it out and poof! Clock chip gets zapped by 5V.

HP were fond of using NiCds as shunt regulators at that time. The did
it in many of
their handheld calculators (HP20 series 'Woodstock', HP30 series
'Spice', etc). In
those it wasn't normally a problem (the calculator electronics drew
enough current to
pull the voltage down) except in machines with 'continuous memory'
(battery backed
RAM). There, if the machine it turned _off_ the RAM is the only thing
drawing current
and it doesn't draw enough to pull the voltage down below the zapping level.

-tony

From brain at jbrain.com  Thu Jun  6 23:06:43 2019
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 23:06:43 -0500
Subject: MacPlus Boot Disk Needed
Message-ID: <4ff12e1e-c39b-ec88-f61b-37e26c186b26@jbrain.com>

A friend at work picked up a nice MacPlus but no boot disk.? I have no 
Mac compatible drive options here, so I am hoping someone might be able 
to help.? I believe it can run OS6.0.8 on 800K floppies, but others 
might know more.? Happy to pay for disk, work, and shipping.? Was going 
to buy from BMOW, but they are out of stock.

Jim

-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com


From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 23:34:35 2019
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 22:34:35 -0600
Subject: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip
In-Reply-To: <CAHkUCCwNHvBRSf+C+FeEpxXsrQJG357F7fmuJLi8GhEREXRvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <04d001d51ca2$1611c280$42354780$@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCztXHpHR0Vj6s8eoutrfP57gz2VeE__W1zhtVfvVu8OeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8AA1168A-D766-4D39-8BF4-F73120F21B1A@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCwNHvBRSf+C+FeEpxXsrQJG357F7fmuJLi8GhEREXRvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTKTjZgHYwSfWLjSsCs7=szT_+myMBZ8Aq4VbY2pxGx5A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:57 PM Tony Duell via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> HP were fond of using NiCds as shunt regulators at that time. The did
> it in many of
> their handheld calculators (HP20 series 'Woodstock', HP30 series
> 'Spice', etc). In
> those it wasn't normally a problem (the calculator electronics drew
> enough current to
> pull the voltage down) except in machines with 'continuous memory'
> (battery backed
> RAM). There, if the machine it turned _off_ the RAM is the only thing
> drawing current
> and it doesn't draw enough to pull the voltage down below the zapping
> level.
>

The should have paralleled the battery with zener with a voltage somewhat
above the normal battery charging voltage but below the abs max rating of
the power supply pins of the chips. They saved maybe ten cents by omitting
that.

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Jun  7 05:30:29 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 12:30:29 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <bfb6f9d1-d859-12ba-8d25-d5ed3d60ef9c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmH-fEjOfWGqezLzg4uUJNCXSmq9AkY+D8p13jAF1fbUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEqaVeRH=FfHMh+bRSoqqCvryCy+GGb5YNrhQY6A-GXrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfb6f9d1-d859-12ba-8d25-d5ed3d60ef9c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCF7yJULuNc90nGEpZPP=rpXCbPxcbWBixiHO5-xpym2sg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 at 19:30, Grant Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Most of the Palm users I knew, myself included, used their Palm largely
> stand alone.  Almost all of us backed up (synced) our device to our
> computers as a backup in case of device corruption.  Some of us did use
> Palm Desktop as a convenient interface (PIM) to what was on our palms.
> But the Palm was largely stand alone.
>
> I did know a few people that synced with Outlook (and other things).
>
> The person that introduced me to Palms and I did play with network based
> syncing and had it working reliably at work.

Remarkable. Well, perhaps I had it all wrong all this time!

> I found myself, along with a few other Palm users, using Graffiti on
> paper, because it was faster than traditional letters.

:-o

Shorthand, yes. But Graffiti...

I have to ask. How is your cursive/longhand?

When I sent Palm owners contact info, some protested that my contacts
were _too full_ with _too much info_ -- home and work address,
multiple phone numbers, home and work emails, birthdays,
partners/kids' names, etc.

Their devices handled it but the owners couldn't. Palm owners entered
the bare minimum of contact info, because data entry was so painful.

This was one of the virtues of having a good keyboard, of course.

I knew one chap who tried to write a novel on his Palm device, but for
most, it was kept as short as possible. I wrote many tens of thousands
of words on my Psions -- they were a primary working device.

I took my new Gemini PDA to the FOSDEM FOSS conference in Brussels
back in February. Tried using it instead of a notebook PC for
note-taking. It was _far_ better. A tenth of the size or weight, but
as fast to type on, perfectly comfortable and convenient. And enough
battery life for a weekend of use without a charge. The Psion keyboard
at least lives on and is still relevant today.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Jun  7 05:45:48 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 12:45:48 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906061034430.7652@shell.lmi.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmH-fEjOfWGqezLzg4uUJNCXSmq9AkY+D8p13jAF1fbUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEqaVeRH=FfHMh+bRSoqqCvryCy+GGb5YNrhQY6A-GXrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906061034430.7652@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCG_KwtOeoLuck7=hEtKjCQsdnfFk8UWGbyexAFSf=ej5A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 at 19:55, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> I used my Palm(s) completely stand-alone.
> I did not "synchronize" them with PC, other than a token backup to confirm
> process.  And I never used it as a peripheral to the PC.
> I did transfer a few files back and forth between Palm and PC; for
> example, for a conference, I copied a file with the conference schedule
> to the Palm.
>
> I used the Fossil (Palm-OS) VERY briefly, in the same way.  The watchband
> on it is still new and stiff.

I am boggling. Well, perhaps this is an intercontinental difference,
or perhaps I just had it wrong. For most of the users I know, it was a
pocketable version of their Outlook calendar and address book.

> I used Atari Portfolio and Poqet a bit.  AND, when I needed to research
> and learn TSRs, I did so on them!  Poqet was MS-DOS 5.00.  Portfolio was
> imitation-DOS, but close enough that they had implemented the undocumented
> calls that TSRs used.  I wrote the [text-mode] screen capture TSR for
> XenoFont on them.  (For a while, Sybex used the screen capture and
> screen printing routines of XenoFont for all of their text-mode books.
> Then, I wrote the XenoSoft Sales Tax Genie on the Poqet.
>
> Yes, I tested everything on CGA, MDA, Hercules, EGA, VGA, 286, 386, 486,
> Pentium.  But why bother using those on 80x86 projects that were not
> performance intensive?  Nothing becomes USELESS just because there now
> exists something bigger and faster.

Well, no, of course not. That's sort of why we're all here.

I still use DOS occasionally -- usually DR-DOS or PC DOS, for me. For
some things, such as word processing, it's still fine.

But whereas I know people who use Mutt/Neomutt/Alpine, I want a GUI
for my email these days, for instance.

> I used the OQOs (XP) extensively for email and web browsing.  (Before
> Android smartphones)

I used my Nokia Communicator for that. :-) Small enough to use with 1
hand, when closed it was a decent "candybar" phone, but open, I could
read a letterbox-sized slice of an A4 PDF page comfortable.

> Until presbyopia did me in, I had no problem with tiny screens, if they
> had enough resolution.  I could read microfilm without a viewer, and could
> easily see the grain in photos.  When the ophthalmalogist asked me to read
> the smallest line on the eye chart, he had to walk over to it before he
> would believe me that it said, "Copyright Bausch and Lomb".  Now, I can't
> even read printed text without at least +2.5

:-(

I live in some fear of this, and it's why I have not had laser eye
surgery. (Adding the erroneous hyphen makes it sound much more
exciting: laser-eye surgery.)

I still have good close-up vision, at 51, but I have to hold stuff
within a few inches of my nose to do it. If/when that goes, either
LASIK or a cataract op will be high on the list

> I would hope that the keyboard for Palm would at least use Grafiti font
> for its keycaps    :-)

:-o

I have 2 of them and I have to disappoint you. :-D

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Jun  7 06:05:54 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 13:05:54 +0200
Subject: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics)
 running in MAME
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR1801MB1961DA7C2B23D9988FA923F1AB170@DM5PR1801MB1961.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <066502a6-b9d6-0b12-364c-00037b83cf42@bitsavers.org>
 <DM5PR1801MB1961DA7C2B23D9988FA923F1AB170@DM5PR1801MB1961.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEBq=Hj0LSthUDTZq4U5qpSzkqf74Sv_wPkR4W_LdVjtw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 at 19:58, Sophie Haskins via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> A while back I uploaded a few minutes of the "ElectroPaint" screensaver captured from an Indy w/ a framegrabber. If that's your thing, it's here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl3mF-wKWgg

Reminds me of William Latham's Organic Art screensaver.

http://www.nemeton.com/static/artworks/organic-art/index.html

I blogged how to get it running on Win7:

https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/57510.html

I guess I should make a video or something to show it off. As Win7 is
about to be pushed off its perch, I guess this is historic stuff now
too. :-(


-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Jun  7 10:01:50 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri,  7 Jun 2019 11:01:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PDP-11/10 PSU Repair/Warning
Message-ID: <20190607150150.51AFD18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Systems_Glitch

    > I believe the big difference was in the current-supplying capability on
    > the +15V rail -- 1A vs. 4A.

Ah, thanks for the tip.

I have an H742, so I was exable to examine it, and the 5409730 (difference
details on that below). The transformer may also be different (see below).
The other differences seem to be mechanical; a larger cooling fan on the 7420,
and the sheet-metal enclosure that holds the the power control board,
transformer and fan is in two parts, bolted together.

Interestingly, in light of your issue, the H7420's all have a fuse in the AC
supply line to the 5411086; it's mounted on the enclosure. Nothing in the
H742, though.

    > I believe it was mentioned as an upgrade thing in one of the technical
    > manuals I'd read some time ago.

If you happen to recall where that was, I'd be very interested to see it.

Upgrading from an H742 to an H7420 appears to be relatively simple; the pinout
on the Mate-N-Lok which carries the outputs from the power board (DEC's name
for it changes) is the same in both versions. (Have yet to look at the two
Mate-N-Lok's on either side of it; I guess those carry the ~30V AC to the
bricks.)

Upgrading an H742 _to_ an H7420 appears to be more problematic. To start with,
the power board is mounted vertically (on the inside face of the enclosure) in
the H7420, but horizontally (above the transformer) in the H742. Maybe they
changed the transformer too? Will have to check. It's also possible that was
caused by the switch to the larger fan. Anyway, the 5411086 might not fit
in the horizontal; plus the interface is different (see below).

    > It would be easy to make up a new harness to swap one in place of the
    > other, since the 5411086 goes to a Mate-n-Lok that plugs into the power
    > distribution board.

Yes and no!

The 5409730 and the 5411086 are significantly different, mechanically. The
former doesn't have the edge connector (the one that burned out on you),
rather it has a short 12-wire pigtail to a female Mate-N-Lok which plugs into
a hole in the enclosure. That's for the _outputs_ - the AC input is in a
separate 4-pin Mate-n-Lok (physically exactly like the one on older disk
drives on PC's) which is mounted onto the board. (4 pins since there are two
differnet AC inputs - one pair is filtered through what seem to be hefty coils
in the input wiring.)

The harness used in the BA11-K is also significantly different from the one in
the H7420; the former has a male Mate-n-Lok, the latter is a female. The
pinout appears to be a subset on the BA11-K, only 9 of the 12 pins are wired;
assuming standard colour coding, the +8V DC is missing, as is the second 
ACLO and DCLO.

Although, as you say, one could make a new harness. Speaking of which, do you
know of a source for the connector that goes onto the edge connector? (Some of
my BA11-K's are missing the harness.)


I'm slowly adding all this info to the CHWiki.

    Noel


From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Jun  7 10:25:07 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2019 10:25:07 -0500
Subject: tape seals?
In-Reply-To: <CAKZvcPhDqBa1KEqbV+Zw-z92dQ6PoFui=U97bdfPJ4WBOnze_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKZvcPhDqBa1KEqbV+Zw-z92dQ6PoFui=U97bdfPJ4WBOnze_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5CFA81D3.5030200@pico-systems.com>

On 06/05/2019 06:05 PM, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I think someone was looking for tape seals for 9 track tapes, a few weeks
> ago.
>
> If they can contact me offline, I have about 20 of varying sizes for
> shipping cost or local pickup.
My experience with them is that the seal bands are quite 
long-lasting, but the black ends that snap in tend to crack 
after a while.  These small parts could likely be reverse 
engineered and made on a 3D printer.

Jon

From sales at elecplus.com  Fri Jun  7 10:49:09 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 10:49:09 -0500
Subject: Old CoCos and similar things
Message-ID: <027601d51d48$8bf5a4c0$a3e0ee40$@com>

I have a few of these that need to be tested. I am certain they have not
been plugged in for many years.

Is the anything special I need to do before I just plug them in and turn
them on?

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  7 12:50:29 2019
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 10:50:29 -0700
Subject: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip
In-Reply-To: <CAHkUCCztXHpHR0Vj6s8eoutrfP57gz2VeE__W1zhtVfvVu8OeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <04d001d51ca2$1611c280$42354780$@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCztXHpHR0Vj6s8eoutrfP57gz2VeE__W1zhtVfvVu8OeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <05b901d51d59$7fcb9180$7f62b480$@gmail.com>

>The clock chip seems to be a normal digital watch/clock chip. The inputs to
>it are essentially the 'set' buttons, the outputs are the 7 segment lines and
>digit strobes. But I have not found a data sheet on it anywhere.
Tony, looks like you are absolutely right, this would be a garden variety digital clock chip! Looking at the schematics, U15:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kNq0-IUBcPKDAE8k4Ztg2eoUCWHPr4hI
The outputs Sa-Sg are standard names for 7-segments, and are read on the processor bus. They don't bother to read segment d, I suppose they can differentiate all the numbers without reading that one. DI must be the Decimal Indicate segment. D1-D3 would be the digit counter. C25, READ and SET are the inputs - we'd have to find what they exactly do. Would they then set the clock by just toggling the digits in one by one as one would do to reset a clock? Anyhow, it seems I could set the Sa-Sg signal to test pattern and see if indeed I read digits different than 8, and confirm that everything is working but the clock chip. Now, how to find a more or less equivalent replacement chip.
Marc


-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2019 8:25 PM
To: CuriousMarc; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 8:57 PM CuriousMarc via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> All HP fans in general and Tony in particular,
> I have the exact same problem. HP98035 real time clock module
> (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=168), plugged into a HP9825T
> (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=171), accepts commands, reads back
> all 8's. Battery is new, is charging and at the correct voltage.
> Documentation says "never run the module without the battery or it would
> damage the AC5954N clock chip". When I got the module it had not battery in
> it, so this is what could have happened. Tony, did you eventually repair
> your module or find some data on the clock chip?

I've certainly got a working 98035, but I can't remember if I repaired this one.

The clock chip seems to be a normal digital watch/clock chip. The inputs to
it are essentially the 'set' buttons, the outputs are the 7 segment lines and
digit strobes. But I have not found a data sheet on it anywhere.

-tony


From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  7 12:56:50 2019
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 18:56:50 +0100
Subject: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip
In-Reply-To: <05b901d51d59$7fcb9180$7f62b480$@gmail.com>
References: <04d001d51ca2$1611c280$42354780$@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCztXHpHR0Vj6s8eoutrfP57gz2VeE__W1zhtVfvVu8OeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05b901d51d59$7fcb9180$7f62b480$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCzUP7fX9TQaC2DZomAVihHdq_Jcr8tUKpvvyJK7FCTXMw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 6:50 PM CuriousMarc <curiousmarc3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >The clock chip seems to be a normal digital watch/clock chip. The inputs to
> >it are essentially the 'set' buttons, the outputs are the 7 segment lines and
> >digit strobes. But I have not found a data sheet on it anywhere.
> Tony, looks like you are absolutely right, this would be a garden variety digital clock chip! Looking at the schematics, U15:
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kNq0-IUBcPKDAE8k4Ztg2eoUCWHPr4hI
> The outputs Sa-Sg are standard names for 7-segments, and are read on the processor bus. They don't bother to read segment d, I suppose they can differentiate all the numbers without reading that one. DI must be the Decimal Indicate segment. D1-D3 would be the digit counter. C25, READ and SET are the inputs - we'd have to find what they exactly do. Would they then set the clock by just toggling the digits in one by one as one would do to reset a clock? Anyhow, it seems I could set the Sa-Sg signal to test pattern and see if indeed I read digits different than 8, and confirm that everything is working but the clock chip. Now, how to find a more or less equivalent replacement chip.
>

I wondered if it's actually a digtal watch chip (2.5V could have been a couple
of mercury cells in series, LED watches were not uncommon back then).

In which case it would not normally have come in a 0.6" wide DIP. Perhaps
normally it was a bare chip directly mounted on the watch circuit board or
something.

The DIP version would be unusual, which is perhaps why we can't find data
on it.

-tony

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  7 13:01:56 2019
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 11:01:56 -0700
Subject: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip
In-Reply-To: <CAHkUCCzUP7fX9TQaC2DZomAVihHdq_Jcr8tUKpvvyJK7FCTXMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <04d001d51ca2$1611c280$42354780$@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCztXHpHR0Vj6s8eoutrfP57gz2VeE__W1zhtVfvVu8OeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05b901d51d59$7fcb9180$7f62b480$@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCzUP7fX9TQaC2DZomAVihHdq_Jcr8tUKpvvyJK7FCTXMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <05ba01d51d5b$1964e610$4c2eb230$@gmail.com>

> 
> I wondered if it's actually a digtal watch chip (2.5V could have been a couple
> of mercury cells in series, LED watches were not uncommon back then).
> 
> In which case it would not normally have come in a 0.6" wide DIP. Perhaps
> normally it was a bare chip directly mounted on the watch circuit board or
> something.
> 
> The DIP version would be unusual, which is perhaps why we can't find data
> on it.
> 
> -tony

I think you are on to something. That would make perfect sense.
Marc


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Jun  7 13:06:04 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 11:06:04 -0700
Subject: tape seals?
In-Reply-To: <5CFA81D3.5030200@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAKZvcPhDqBa1KEqbV+Zw-z92dQ6PoFui=U97bdfPJ4WBOnze_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CFA81D3.5030200@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <7e0eb701-779d-ba18-6d48-67acdde4bf56@sydex.com>

On 6/7/19 8:25 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> On 06/05/2019 06:05 PM, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I think someone was looking for tape seals for 9 track tapes, a few weeks
>> ago.
>>
>> If they can contact me offline, I have about 20 of varying sizes for
>> shipping cost or local pickup.
> My experience with them is that the seal bands are quite long-lasting,
> but the black ends that snap in tend to crack after a while.? These
> small parts could likely be reverse engineered and made on a 3D printer.
That's *definitely* not my experience.  I don't think I've ever had a
"hook" failure.

I process tapes in batches of five--five in the oven, five in the
cleaner, five to be photographed and five to be read.  They're returned
to the customer in 12x12x12 boxes in batches of 10.

Out of the new batch of five out of the oven this morning, here are two
samples of what I see:

https://i.imgur.com/HRYYs8Z.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zMQ8Jmw.jpg

Notice that these are official "TapeSeal" bands, not some knockoff.
Granted, most of the stuff I get is from the 1960s and 70s; the two
reels shown above were probably new sometime around 1968-71.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Jun  7 15:26:10 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 13:26:10 -0700
Subject: tape seals?
In-Reply-To: <7e0eb701-779d-ba18-6d48-67acdde4bf56@sydex.com>
References: <CAKZvcPhDqBa1KEqbV+Zw-z92dQ6PoFui=U97bdfPJ4WBOnze_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CFA81D3.5030200@pico-systems.com>
 <7e0eb701-779d-ba18-6d48-67acdde4bf56@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <c867b588-09ea-c47a-1462-ac2f16511b0a@sydex.com>

Another failure category that I've experienced with very old IBM reels
is that the "blue back" ones can have a tendency to come apart; that is,
the rear flange separates from the front.

The "blue" ones are a bit different in attachment from the "brown" ones
in that the two halves are held together by a number (perhaps 30, I
didnt't cound) of slender plastic "fingers" that are molded into the
rear flange and engage with a number of metal clips on the front flange.
 With time, these "fingers" can become brittle and break with the result
being a lot of tape on the floor.

I put a small bead of polyurethane glue (e.g. "Gorilla") on the outer
radius of the "finger" attachments and clamp the whole assembly together
until the glue cures.   No glue gets into the tape areas and the result
seems to be permanent.

I also get the occasional broken or cracked flange, but those are simple
to repair using a good acrylic solvent cement.

--Chuck


From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com  Fri Jun  7 18:19:05 2019
From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 18:19:05 -0500
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <20190607200835.91C4118C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190607200835.91C4118C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHnoH6y_izfZWYy3Naki2tRQAZ9L76n=puBzEEqJgpgFpu_M5A@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, I wasn't aware that the ODT console needed memory to run. Checking on
my board, it looks like the 4kw was disabled. I plugged in my 32kw module
with my M8017-AA, and it fired right up to ODT without a hassle. Seems that
was the issue all along.

On Fri, Jun 7, 2019, 3:08 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:

> Hi, sorry I'm slow to do those tests; got distracted by the power
> card stuff.
>
> So I've just dicovered that in a system with _only_ an LSI-11/2,
> and a console, ODT doesn't start. I had to plug a memory card in
> as well for ODT to work. (Confused the dickens out of me!)
>
> Is the RAM on your CPU card configured off?
>
>    Noel
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Jun  7 19:35:14 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri,  7 Jun 2019 20:35:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
Message-ID: <20190608003514.140E518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mister PDP

    > Wow, I wasn't aware that the ODT console needed memory to run.

It was news to me too! (And apparently to most others here too?)

I was going to look at those confusing bus cycles, using an only slightly
mis-addressed console, and wanted to first check that that console worked when
properly configured; so I plugged in it and an LSI-11/2 CPU - nothing.
Switched to a different CPU (maybe the first one died), _still_ nothing? So I
tried an -11/23, ODT worked! So, the console worked; the chances of two CPUs
that were working a week ago suddenly both dying seemed slim... what else
could it be?

And the /23 works with no memory! Odd. Will definitely have to make a note
of that LSI-11 behaviour on the CHWiki.

    > I plugged in my 32kw module with my M8017-AA, and it fired right up to
    > ODT without a hassle.

Yee-hah!!! EXCELLENT!!!

Well, it took a while, but we finally got there! Do let us know how it goes
with your next steps - and if you have an issue, let us know! (Hopefully, next
time, we won'tbe so clueless! :-)

      Noel

PS: Might be useful to check that the DLV11-J works; having a stock of known-good
boards you can swap in is such a tool for QBUS debugging.

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Jun  7 21:06:24 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2019 21:06:24 -0500
Subject: tape seals?
In-Reply-To: <7e0eb701-779d-ba18-6d48-67acdde4bf56@sydex.com>
References: <CAKZvcPhDqBa1KEqbV+Zw-z92dQ6PoFui=U97bdfPJ4WBOnze_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CFA81D3.5030200@pico-systems.com>
 <7e0eb701-779d-ba18-6d48-67acdde4bf56@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5CFB1820.5090606@pico-systems.com>

On 06/07/2019 01:06 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 6/7/19 8:25 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> My experience with them is that the seal bands are quite long-lasting,
>> but the black ends that snap in tend to crack after a while.  These
>> small parts could likely be reverse engineered and made on a 3D printer.
> That's *definitely* not my experience.  I don't think I've ever had a
> "hook" failure.
>
OK, my experience with 1/2" tape mostly ended about 20 years 
ago, but I STILL have one shelf of tapes in my shop, and ALL 
the seals are in excellent condition.  I have no idea why!  
(But, mine are in a metal rack, not hanging.)

But, we did have some where the separate black ends that 
formed the hanging hook and clamp broke.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Jun  7 21:10:41 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2019 21:10:41 -0500
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <CAHnoH6y_izfZWYy3Naki2tRQAZ9L76n=puBzEEqJgpgFpu_M5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190607200835.91C4118C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHnoH6y_izfZWYy3Naki2tRQAZ9L76n=puBzEEqJgpgFpu_M5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5CFB1921.5010402@pico-systems.com>

On 06/07/2019 06:19 PM, Mister PDP via cctalk wrote:
> Wow, I wasn't aware that the ODT console needed memory to run. Checking on
> my board, it looks like the 4kw was disabled. I plugged in my 32kw module
> with my M8017-AA, and it fired right up to ODT without a hassle. Seems that
> was the issue all along.
>
>
Oh, of course!  You can do very elementary checking of a 
switch-and-lights PDP-11 with no memory, but creating any 
sort of useful program that will run using only ROM and the 
8 registers would be VERY challenging.  I suspect you might 
be able to get it to print some text on the terminal, but 
not a whole lot more. Obviously, no way to call a subroutine 
without a stack.

Well, glad you found it!

Jon

From useddec at gmail.com  Fri Jun  7 22:01:32 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 22:01:32 -0500
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <5CFB1921.5010402@pico-systems.com>
References: <20190607200835.91C4118C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHnoH6y_izfZWYy3Naki2tRQAZ9L76n=puBzEEqJgpgFpu_M5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CFB1921.5010402@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuN45BUyNMhKL1iy7Bqs+iOQ4mVjDjeYbfEX8xB=AB2jzg@mail.gmail.com>

I missed the part of the thread about the memory being disabled. I think
the 11/05/10 is the only PDP-11 with a few registers on the CPU that you
can run short routines. I also like the built is console SLU.

Paul


On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 9:18 PM Jon Elson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 06/07/2019 06:19 PM, Mister PDP via cctalk wrote:
> > Wow, I wasn't aware that the ODT console needed memory to run. Checking
> on
> > my board, it looks like the 4kw was disabled. I plugged in my 32kw module
> > with my M8017-AA, and it fired right up to ODT without a hassle. Seems
> that
> > was the issue all along.
> >
> >
> Oh, of course!  You can do very elementary checking of a
> switch-and-lights PDP-11 with no memory, but creating any
> sort of useful program that will run using only ROM and the
> 8 registers would be VERY challenging.  I suspect you might
> be able to get it to print some text on the terminal, but
> not a whole lot more. Obviously, no way to call a subroutine
> without a stack.
>
> Well, glad you found it!
>
> Jon
>

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Jun  8 10:24:40 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 16:24:40 +0100
Subject: Old CoCos and similar things
In-Reply-To: <027601d51d48$8bf5a4c0$a3e0ee40$@com>
References: <027601d51d48$8bf5a4c0$a3e0ee40$@com>
Message-ID: <0a2401d51e0e$4aaa7c40$dfff74c0$@gmail.com>

Cindy,
CoCo's have linear PSUs so you could soft power up using a variac, but I
can't think of anything special to try
Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Electronics Plus
> via cctalk
> Sent: 07 June 2019 16:49
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Old CoCos and similar things
> 
> I have a few of these that need to be tested. I am certain they have not
been
> plugged in for many years.
> 
> Is the anything special I need to do before I just plug them in and turn
them
> on?
> 
> 
> 
> Cindy Croxton
> 
> Electronics Plus
> 
> 1613 Water Street
> 
> Kerrville, TX 78028
> 
> 830-370-3239 cell
> 
> sales at elecplus.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com  Sat Jun  8 11:07:22 2019
From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 11:07:22 -0500
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <20190608003514.140E518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190608003514.140E518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHnoH6wHvxy=67buJPvQ4YDfeK4b7uqu-9r=DCjt+fV0M07jKQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 7:35 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:

> PS: Might be useful to check that the DLV11-J works; having a stock of
> known-good
> boards you can swap in is such a tool for QBUS debugging.


Tried that one out too, and it works. In fact, unlike my M8017, it will
actually respond to my inputs on my terminal. I'm pretty sure I may just
have the card configured incorrectly, but I'm not going to worry about that
for now. Right now I am working on getting a TU58 emulator set up. You
wouldn't happen to know where  I could find detailed instructions
(Address/Vector, Bootstrap, etc..) on how to do this would you?

From pieroandreini at gmail.com  Sat Jun  8 05:14:14 2019
From: pieroandreini at gmail.com (Piero Andreini)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 12:14:14 +0200
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
Message-ID: <FED07607-8247-444A-B146-A57248713F85@gmail.com>

desperately looking for jedec file of PAL 16L8 position U69 part # 1820-2991

From pieroandreini at gmail.com  Sat Jun  8 10:05:20 2019
From: pieroandreini at gmail.com (Piero Andreini)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 17:05:20 +0200
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
Message-ID: <30EE6C1D-7C34-4B76-A7A1-B1B671D86B3F@gmail.com>

desperately looking for jedec file of PAL16L8 position U69 part # 1820-2991 for my HP9816

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sat Jun  8 11:37:29 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 12:37:29 -0400
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <CAHnoH6wHvxy=67buJPvQ4YDfeK4b7uqu-9r=DCjt+fV0M07jKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190608003514.140E518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHnoH6wHvxy=67buJPvQ4YDfeK4b7uqu-9r=DCjt+fV0M07jKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5826a6ee-7650-d1d4-d8b7-ce4563e22080@gmail.com>

On 06/08/2019 12:07 PM, Mister PDP via cctalk wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 7:35 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>> PS: Might be useful to check that the DLV11-J works; having a stock of
>> known-good
>> boards you can swap in is such a tool for QBUS debugging.
> 
> 
> Tried that one out too, and it works. In fact, unlike my M8017, it will
> actually respond to my inputs on my terminal. I'm pretty sure I may just
> have the card configured incorrectly, but I'm not going to worry about that
> for now. Right now I am working on getting a TU58 emulator set up. You
> wouldn't happen to know where  I could find detailed instructions
> (Address/Vector, Bootstrap, etc..) on how to do this would you?
> 

LSI-11 (or PDP-11) Microcomputer handbook there were many versions
over the years earlier maybe more useful to LSI-11 users.

First you really want the DLV11J as you need the ports.
Configure it with the standard address for DD(TU58) and its vector.
There is a list in the various Qbus LSI/PDP11 manuals.

Note to boot anything from TU58 you will need a boot program
and unless you add a MRV11 (eprom card) that means hand entry
via ODT.  See
http://retrocmp.com/tools/tu58fs/265-tu58fs-pdp-11-boot-loader-operation
for details.

Also you will want not less that 16Kbytes of memory more its very
desirable the upper limits is about 28K words as the upper 4K words
is reserved mostly for boot (ep)roms and device addresses.

Most common easily loaded OS is RT-11 V3 though 5.4.

The most common devices:
RX01 floppy
LP11 Parallel printer, this can also be a port on the DLV11 for
a serial printer.
And of course the console  VT52 or VT100 were the time frame for
LSI-11 but any of the later VT2xx,3xx and later terminals work well.
LSI-11 Boot, terminator card (there are variants depending on the
bootable devices.

ONE LAST REMINDER:  LSI-11 was first of its kind and while Qbus did
become a standard it did not remain completely in the original
format.  There is Q16, Q18, and Q22 and that specified both level
of change and the address bus width.  Not all cards work right in
LSI-11 level bus with LSI-11 cpu and some of the older cards
common to LSI-11 do not in the newer buses with 11/23 or later
cpus.  Some of the backplanes did specific incompatible things
with the CD portion of the connector chain and in some cases
had a EF connector (HEX width).  Use care, read up, and have fun.


Allison


From barythrin at gmail.com  Sat Jun  8 14:55:09 2019
From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 14:55:09 -0500
Subject: Palm usage was Re: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CADyB93C0vFj-dR__Aa2J5a9uRP+QUgPQzdt=FNqonqZA5F1V7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimmH-fEjOfWGqezLzg4uUJNCXSmq9AkY+D8p13jAF1fbUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <201906061744.x56Hiv4p13107420@floodgap.com>
 <CADyB93CAKLMBbhjDt2Di_f=YwFJ_4kZm4DQuWxnQ1BHSRpowDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADyB93C0vFj-dR__Aa2J5a9uRP+QUgPQzdt=FNqonqZA5F1V7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CC1AD718-9299-4D8B-9861-49518B6665AF@gmail.com>

I was curious about the opinion and reply :-)


Sent from my Apple /////c

>> 
>> Cameron, how did you like Plua and what did you do with it?
>> 
> 
> Oops, sorry for sending this out to the list

From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Sat Jun  8 15:17:41 2019
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 17:17:41 -0300
Subject: Palm usage was Re: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <201906061744.x56Hiv4p13107420@floodgap.com>
References: <CAALmimmH-fEjOfWGqezLzg4uUJNCXSmq9AkY+D8p13jAF1fbUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <201906061744.x56Hiv4p13107420@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKRBY8iNVL4510cTwCZ_fn4jebyyMS73KfiBWFaf1q06ow@mail.gmail.com>

You know I miss (A LOT) Palm desktop simplicity!?

Wish I could have the same functionality on my android phone. Everything
was SO simple and straightforward...


---8<---Corte aqui---8<---
http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com
http://www.tabalabs.com.br
---8<---Corte aqui---8<---


Em qui, 6 de jun de 2019 ?s 14:45, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu:

> > > ...I was never a big fan
> > > of PalmOS, TBH. Too limited for me as a former Psion user, and the
> > > Palm devices were always very tied to a PC -- they were meant to be a
> > > way to take your Outlook (or whatever) address book and diary with you
> > > in your pocket.
> >
> > Interesting view of Palm usage that I hadn't considered.
> >
> > > I didn't use Outlook or a desktop PC PIM at all.
> >
> > Nor did I.  When I carried a Palm Pilot every day, I was using UNIX
> > 'mail' for work e-mail and did all local edits of my calendar on the
> > Palm.  I did backup my Palm Pilot, to my Linux Laptop (I still have
> > backups files from 1999 in an archive folder).
>
> Not sure if this counts as "connected" but I used Palm Desktop itself for
> my personal scheduling. I never used my Palms (an m505 and a Zire 72) for
> E-mail, though. It did mostly note-taking, calendar and pharmacy work, and
> some programming (in Plua).
>
> --
> ------------------------------------ personal:
> http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
>   Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com *
> ckaiser at floodgap.com
> -- If elected, I will win. -- Pat Paulsen for President
> -----------------------
>

From chrise at pobox.com  Sat Jun  8 15:40:20 2019
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 15:40:20 -0500
Subject: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip
In-Reply-To: <05ba01d51d5b$1964e610$4c2eb230$@gmail.com>
References: <04d001d51ca2$1611c280$42354780$@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCztXHpHR0Vj6s8eoutrfP57gz2VeE__W1zhtVfvVu8OeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05b901d51d59$7fcb9180$7f62b480$@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCzUP7fX9TQaC2DZomAVihHdq_Jcr8tUKpvvyJK7FCTXMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <05ba01d51d5b$1964e610$4c2eb230$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190608204020.GB2434@n0jcf.net>

On Friday (06/07/2019 at 11:01AM -0700), CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote:
> > 
> > I wondered if it's actually a digtal watch chip (2.5V could have been a couple
> > of mercury cells in series, LED watches were not uncommon back then).
> > 
> > In which case it would not normally have come in a 0.6" wide DIP. Perhaps
> > normally it was a bare chip directly mounted on the watch circuit board or
> > something.
> > 
> > The DIP version would be unusual, which is perhaps why we can't find data
> > on it.
> > 
> > -tony
> 
> I think you are on to something. That would make perfect sense.

FWIW, there was an article in Kilobaud magazine, perhaps 1977 or '78
that described connecting a TI LED digital watch to the SS-30 bus in
the SWTPC 6800.

I built this then, wrecking the TI watch as a watch but it made an
excellent RTC for this machine.  Two AA size NiCADs were used to power
the watch and charged through a simple trickle charge when the machine
was powered up.

The interface to the host was through a 6820 PIA, with just the segment
lines and a couple of output bits.  The output bits indeed "pressed"
the buttons on the watch and the code would set it just like a human
would by stepping through each digit in sequence and "pressing" the
other button to increment that digit.

When reading the clock, the code would pretend to set the watch but never
increment any digit.  It would just press the button to advance to the
next digit, stepping through all of the digit positions until it had
read them all (both time and date) and then return this buffered result.

By pretending to set the clock but not actually changing it, it allowed
the code to know which digit was being displayed and therefore it did not
need to have the digit select lines brought into the host.

Chris
-- 
Chris Elmquist

From alan at alanlee.org  Sat Jun  8 12:18:07 2019
From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2019 13:18:07 -0400
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
In-Reply-To: <30EE6C1D-7C34-4B76-A7A1-B1B671D86B3F@gmail.com>
References: <30EE6C1D-7C34-4B76-A7A1-B1B671D86B3F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3dc25ce8cd106e712d7fe655cee18711@alanlee.org>


L series are combinatorial only.  You (or someone who has a working one) 
should be able to figure out a logic map by either running through all 
the input permutation or putting it in a reader that will do the same 
(vs reading the fuse data).

-Alan

Good luck.

On 2019-06-08 11:05, Piero Andreini via cctech wrote:
> desperately looking for jedec file of PAL16L8 position U69 part #
> 1820-2991 for my HP9816

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Sat Jun  8 13:53:04 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 18:53:04 +0000
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
In-Reply-To: <3dc25ce8cd106e712d7fe655cee18711@alanlee.org>
References: <30EE6C1D-7C34-4B76-A7A1-B1B671D86B3F@gmail.com>,
 <3dc25ce8cd106e712d7fe655cee18711@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB5608016DE481D189DAC666BDA3110@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Do you have a schematic that shows what it does. You could write your own file is not really complicated for a 16L8. I wrote my own for my 6532to6530 adapter for the KIM-1. I'll admit I did a logic mistake the first time but I'd have done the same with palasm.
Dwight
________________________________
From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Alan Hightower via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 8, 2019 10:18 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8


L series are combinatorial only.  You (or someone who has a working one)
should be able to figure out a logic map by either running through all
the input permutation or putting it in a reader that will do the same
(vs reading the fuse data).

-Alan

Good luck.

On 2019-06-08 11:05, Piero Andreini via cctech wrote:
> desperately looking for jedec file of PAL16L8 position U69 part #
> 1820-2991 for my HP9816

From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Sat Jun  8 13:57:18 2019
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 19:57:18 +0100
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
In-Reply-To: <3dc25ce8cd106e712d7fe655cee18711@alanlee.org>
References: <30EE6C1D-7C34-4B76-A7A1-B1B671D86B3F@gmail.com>
 <3dc25ce8cd106e712d7fe655cee18711@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCx21LyN2HznhkC3UXfxEn_EjuZ5bhiKbejmAMFijV6mdg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 8, 2019 at 6:18 PM Alan Hightower via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>
> L series are combinatorial only.  You (or someone who has a working one)

Not so. The 16L8 has feedback connectoionsfrom the outputs to the logic
array. So while there are no registers (D types), you can make SR type
circuits in it.

-tony

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Jun  8 18:08:32 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat,  8 Jun 2019 19:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
Message-ID: <20190608230832.6432418C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

A follow-up to close out something:

    > OK, now a picture of the bus with no console card:

    > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/BSYN-BDAL_NoMem.jpg
    [Note: image re-named, to correctly say what it's showing]

    > It's a bit hard to interpret what's going on here .. The long assertion
    > of BSYNC is undoubtly the CPU trying to get the console CSR to respond,
    > and eventually timing out.  Not sure what the short assertion following
    > it is - without looking at the ucode for the ODT, there's no way to know
    > what the CPU's doing.

    > Even harder to understand is what the BDAL line is doing. It looks like
    > it's un-asserted (0, i.e. +3V) on the falling (electrically - rising,
    > logically) edge of BSYN (which would be incorrect - see above). And then
    > it hops around while BSYNC is asserted, which makes no sense at all to
    > me.

So this makes a little more sense now.

This is actually showing a NXM cycle to main memory (apparently to address 0),
hence the '0' on BDAL10. (The second assertion of BSYNC must be somehow
associated with the NXM.) Apparently it doesn't even try to talk to the
console card unless the memory is there OK; if it can't see the memory, it
must just reset and try again.

Here:

    > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/BSYN-BDAL_NoCon.jpg

is a system with memory, but without a console. A very similar picture, but
here BDAL10 _is_ '1', as expected.


So the original picture did in fact indicate what the problem was - had I
known enough to know how to interpret it! Schaeffer's Law strikes again!

Although I still don't understand why the LSI-11 wants to see main memory on
the bus, in order for ODT to run. ODT doesn't use memory at all; ODT on the
KDF11 CPUs will run without any memory.

      Noel

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sat Jun  8 21:16:33 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 22:16:33 -0400
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <20190608230832.6432418C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190608230832.6432418C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <369a60c5-33c1-58fa-3632-ca3e3f646e4c@gmail.com>

On 06/08/2019 07:08 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> A follow-up to close out something:
> 
>     > OK, now a picture of the bus with no console card:
> 
>     > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/BSYN-BDAL_NoMem.jpg
>     [Note: image re-named, to correctly say what it's showing]
> 
>     > It's a bit hard to interpret what's going on here .. The long assertion
>     > of BSYNC is undoubtly the CPU trying to get the console CSR to respond,
>     > and eventually timing out.  Not sure what the short assertion following
>     > it is - without looking at the ucode for the ODT, there's no way to know
>     > what the CPU's doing.
> 
>     > Even harder to understand is what the BDAL line is doing. It looks like
>     > it's un-asserted (0, i.e. +3V) on the falling (electrically - rising,
>     > logically) edge of BSYN (which would be incorrect - see above). And then
>     > it hops around while BSYNC is asserted, which makes no sense at all to
>     > me.
> 
> So this makes a little more sense now.
> 
> This is actually showing a NXM cycle to main memory (apparently to address 0),
> hence the '0' on BDAL10. (The second assertion of BSYNC must be somehow
> associated with the NXM.) Apparently it doesn't even try to talk to the
> console card unless the memory is there OK; if it can't see the memory, it
> must just reset and try again.
> 
> Here:
> 
>     > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/BSYN-BDAL_NoCon.jpg
> 
> is a system with memory, but without a console. A very similar picture, but
> here BDAL10 _is_ '1', as expected.
> 
> 
> So the original picture did in fact indicate what the problem was - had I
> known enough to know how to interpret it! Schaeffer's Law strikes again!
> 
> Although I still don't understand why the LSI-11 wants to see main memory on
> the bus, in order for ODT to run. ODT doesn't use memory at all; ODT on the
> KDF11 CPUs will run without any memory.

ODT for the two systems are very different.  The LSI-11 ODT is microcode
in the base CPU MICOM set and very low level. Also the 11/2 cpu (dual
width is a bit differnt), KDF-11 the ODT is part of the higher level
code.  The larger cards (11/23 and 23+) boot to resident (ep)rom.

Also consider the difference between the restart/run between the two.
If memory serves The KDF11 requires enough ram to have a few of the key
addresses in low memory operational.

There is a lot going on with the LSI-11 as it also initializes internal
and external RAM. At the time memory nearly always dynamic and require
refresh cycles before it is "on line".

The manuals detail it well.


Allison

>       Noel
> 


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Jun  8 21:37:58 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat,  8 Jun 2019 22:37:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
Message-ID: <20190609023758.9DD3918C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Allison

    > ODT for the two systems are very different. .. KDF-11 the ODT is part
    > of the higher level code. The larger cards (11/23 and 23+) boot to
    > resident (ep)rom.

Ah, no. (Well, the KDF11 CPU's can boot to EPROM, which in the -11/23+ can be
on the CPU card; the -11/23 is a dual card and has no functionality on the CPU
card except the CPU.)

The ODT in the KDF11's (and KDJ11's) is, just like in the LSI-11's,
microcode, not macro-code. From the 1982 'microcomputers and memories'
handbook, pg. 161 (in Chapter 7, "Octal Debugging Technique (Microcode
ODT)"):

  "The console emulator Octal Debugging Technique (ODT)is a portion of
  the processor microcode ... The console ODT implemented on the LSI-11/23,
  PDP-11/23 and PDP-11/23-PLUS is identical."

and on pg. 154:

  "Unlike the LSI-11 and LSI-11/2, the LSI-11/23 does not enter console
  ODT upon occurrence of a double bus error"

>From which I think is quite clear that the KDF11's have microcode ODT.

      Noel

From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Sun Jun  9 06:45:45 2019
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2019 13:45:45 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c1c262e5fc7e26c5b73675450230b05602addbf0.camel@agj.net>

tor 2019-06-06 klockan 13:43 +0200 skrev Liam Proven via cctalk:
> 
> Result of the eventual convergence on the American model:
> 
> We have amazingly sophisticated, high-spec smartphones and tablets,
> but they have a battery life of a single day, replacing European
> phones that lasted a week and PDAs that lasted a month.
> 
> Why, no, I am *not* happy about that.
> 
> The European PDAs had excellent keyboards you could type on. My Psion
> 5MX paid for itself in the first weekend of ownership: on a
> long-distance coach with a fold-down table the size of an iPad, I
> wrote 2 articles, both of which I sold and which paid for the device.
> 
> 

The economist wrote about this (
https://www.economist.com/briefing/2019/06/08/how-the-pursuit-of-leisure-drives-internet-use
)

The current situation is this:
it is much more important for Apple and Samsung to sell overpriced
things to consumers which then basically only will be used to play
games, look on sport games and youtube films.


What you used the Psion for will only sell about 4 percent of apples
volumes last year....
The screen of the machine i write this on, stands on a sun sparcstation
10.
If i had that machine running well i would be as productive writing
reports on that one as on the asus tower which i now uses.



From mattislind at gmail.com  Sun Jun  9 06:47:47 2019
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2019 13:47:47 +0200
Subject: Alfaskop terminals and SPL programming language.
Message-ID: <CABr82S+t8uZAhjmVs4Nkazukv5Waurvim3R9DyQhX+-+k7Z8BQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have been scanning a few manuals and brochures related to the Alfaskop
series of IBM 3270 compatible and Uniscope 100  compatible terminals.

http://www.datormuseum.se/peripherals/terminals/alfaskop

Unfortunately very little seems to be saved regarding this series of quite
successful terminals. In total around 900.000 units were produced.
Starting with the dumb 3100 with delay line memory, to the 3500/ 3700 with
a TTL CPU and the the 4100 series with 6800 CPU and finally the 91xx series
with 68k CPU (I believe). There is a brief history on the wiki page (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfaskop)

One interesting thing with the 41xx series is that it has a general purpose
real time operating system described in this manual
http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/Alfaskop/Alfaskop_System_41_Operating_System_Reference_Manual.pdf

This manual refers to a SPL programming Language, and a SPL reference
manual, which I am lacking. The SPL language seems to have realtime
constructs like WAIT, DECLARE  TASK, POST etc. Is there anyone that
recognize the language or is it an invention made by Datasaab back in the
days?

Another interesting feature is that the 41xx series made use of a star
coupled 300 kbit/s sort of network. Mainly to communicate with the likewise
networked floppy drive or communication controller. The terminal could be
configured to work stand alone with a floppy drive or using a communication
controller as it seems.

Depending on what it was configured for, the terminal could either run
various terminal emulations, the Alfaword wordprocessing package or even
the UCSD p-system.

It would really be very interesting to find any of this software. So if
anyone knows anything I am interested.

From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Sun Jun  9 06:49:53 2019
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2019 13:49:53 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dd0e959ec48dbf14b3f203c76b994df353c8c2a5.camel@agj.net>

tor 2019-06-06 klockan 13:43 +0200 skrev Liam Proven via cctalk:
> On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 at 20:06, Fred Cisin via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > I don't think that my Fossil (Palm-OS WATCH) does IRDA.
> > I should find somebody who will pay me money for such a piece of
> > crap^H^H^H^H NEAT technology.
> 

I also hate my samsung a5 mobile - the stupid thing
doesnt have something which the two ericsson mobiles i used before (and
a nokia and i believe a samsung to) had.

Namely a small led which was on all the time. A great thing when
you need to look for the damn things while it is dark.

For example in the car or in bed or out in the nature inside a tent.

Stupid little things...

that little led usually changed colour when the battery became low.


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sun Jun  9 06:16:59 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2019 07:16:59 -0400
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <20190609023758.9DD3918C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190609023758.9DD3918C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <09c73aa6-7528-db39-de43-ef8d64f8bc97@gmail.com>

On 06/08/2019 10:37 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctech wrote:
>     > From: Allison
> 
>     > ODT for the two systems are very different. .. KDF-11 the ODT is part
>     > of the higher level code. The larger cards (11/23 and 23+) boot to
>     > resident (ep)rom.
> 
> Ah, no. (Well, the KDF11 CPU's can boot to EPROM, which in the -11/23+ can be
> on the CPU card; the -11/23 is a dual card and has no functionality on the CPU
> card except the CPU.)

Yes that is what the para quoted above implies.  The resence of Eprom
and serial are unique to the F11 based and later J11 quad width cards.

All of the Qbus processor cards could boot to Eprom (TEV11) just like
the Unibus 11s.

And yes the KDF11 cpu does rely on higher level code inside the
microcode its how that code was structured [and made to fit].


Also there are three cards for the KDF11, one dual width, and two
quad width.  The 11/23 early did not boot all devices and had
different eproms (board level difference) than the later 11/23+
hence the + [and different part designations in the Mseries]
designation.  Back then FS noted that when requesting replacement
boards and history requires it.

> 
> The ODT in the KDF11's (and KDJ11's) is, just like in the LSI-11's,
> microcode, not macro-code. From the 1982 'microcomputers and memories'
> handbook, pg. 161 (in Chapter 7, "Octal Debugging Technique (Microcode
> ODT)"):

Save for the CPU and microcode are entirely different.  ODT as a
function is defined to do certain things how its done is vaguely
similar at best.  While implemented in ucode how its done and
depnendancies are very unique to the each (again cp1600 and F11)

>   "The console emulator Octal Debugging Technique (ODT)is a portion of
>   the processor microcode ... The console ODT implemented on the LSI-11/23,
>   PDP-11/23 and PDP-11/23-PLUS is identical."

Yes and unlike many here I have CPUs of all three form factors
operational.  However ODT on the dual width CPU does require a
serial card as there is no way to talk to it without.  That is an
important difference especially if jumpered for ODT.  Actually my
"11" series Qbus collection includes all of the CPUs from the LSI11
though J11 based. And the bus versions are greater from the LSI11
early (and H11) though the later ones with PMI some specific to
devices like the RL11 controller board set.

However LSI-11/23 whatever that is, typo? So I will say the CP1600
processor of LSI-11 and the F11 (KDF-11)processor have major differences
in how ODT works internally and on the bus and the code that does that
are very different.  To the user with a terminal its not very visible
but to the service person (or someone assembling a system) it makes a
difference.

ODT had a specification and if you reffered to it that inside DEC it
was not clear if it was microcode only that what the user/field service
saw behaved in a very specific way.  When applied to a specific
processor it had deeper meaning.  Some of that was factory test
related.  That Specification was an evolved thing as LSI-11 (cp1600)
lead to additions and minor changes that were important to Field
service and manufacturing.

> and on pg. 154:
> 
>   "Unlike the LSI-11 and LSI-11/2, the LSI-11/23 does not enter console
>   ODT upon occurrence of a double bus error"

Glad to see someone reads the books.  There are other differences on
power up and run states.  Like the ram and console dependencies

But all the M7264 posts were boiled down to the problem of not
reading and understanding that ODT for that version of the CPU
had dependencies.  As well as the evolution of Qbus family of PDP11
CPUs and their low level and bus level idiosyncrasies.

Most never refer to the LSI-11/23 that way to mean KDF-11 CPU its was
a documentation error that propagated in educational services and lead
to errors.  LSI-11 (CP1600) was the first generation Qbus and later was
F11 or J11 (or the T11).  The difference was not always small as there
were subtle instruction set differences and diagnostic impacts.  That
always had me during my yeas at DEC going which one are you talking
about, as every thing had at least three names (never minding numbers)
and one was usually ambiguous or a nonspecific family name.

> From which I think is quite clear that the KDF11's have microcode ODT.

It's not a question only the implications of how they did it.  That
they did it using using ucode is too road a generalization and misses
implementation details.

Its those details that get you when assembling systems and forgetting
to include functions that are required if not used.  That goes back to
how DEC supported their systems when computers no longer had front
panels.  It was a field service requirement so they were not trying
to wake a brick with nothing.


Allison

>       Noel
> 


From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Sun Jun  9 13:33:53 2019
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2019 15:33:53 -0300
Subject: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip
In-Reply-To: <20190608204020.GB2434@n0jcf.net>
References: <04d001d51ca2$1611c280$42354780$@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCztXHpHR0Vj6s8eoutrfP57gz2VeE__W1zhtVfvVu8OeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05b901d51d59$7fcb9180$7f62b480$@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCzUP7fX9TQaC2DZomAVihHdq_Jcr8tUKpvvyJK7FCTXMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <05ba01d51d5b$1964e610$4c2eb230$@gmail.com> <20190608204020.GB2434@n0jcf.net>
Message-ID: <b0786daa-b2a6-e58a-bed8-88e9cbf3a7fd@gmail.com>


On 2019-06-08 5:40 p.m., Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote:
> On Friday (06/07/2019 at 11:01AM -0700), CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote:
>>> I wondered if it's actually a digtal watch chip (2.5V could have been a couple
>>> of mercury cells in series, LED watches were not uncommon back then).
>>>
>>> In which case it would not normally have come in a 0.6" wide DIP. Perhaps
>>> normally it was a bare chip directly mounted on the watch circuit board or
>>> something.
>>>
>>> The DIP version would be unusual, which is perhaps why we can't find data
>>> on it.
>>>
>>> -tony
>> I think you are on to something. That would make perfect sense.
> FWIW, there was an article in Kilobaud magazine, perhaps 1977 or '78
> that described connecting a TI LED digital watch to the SS-30 bus in
> the SWTPC 6800.
>
> I built this then, wrecking the TI watch as a watch but it made an
> excellent RTC for this machine.  Two AA size NiCADs were used to power
> the watch and charged through a simple trickle charge when the machine
> was powered up.
>
> The interface to the host was through a 6820 PIA, with just the segment
> lines and a couple of output bits.  The output bits indeed "pressed"
> the buttons on the watch and the code would set it just like a human
> would by stepping through each digit in sequence and "pressing" the
> other button to increment that digit.
>
> When reading the clock, the code would pretend to set the watch but never
> increment any digit.  It would just press the button to advance to the
> next digit, stepping through all of the digit positions until it had
> read them all (both time and date) and then return this buffered result.
>
> By pretending to set the clock but not actually changing it, it allowed
> the code to know which digit was being displayed and therefore it did not
> need to have the digit select lines brought into the host.
>
> Chris

That article "Let Your Computer Wear a Watch" was in the October 1978 
Kilobaud available on archive.org

Paul.


From silent700 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 02:07:42 2019
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 02:07:42 -0500
Subject: VCF Midwest: Hotel Reservations Open
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SE2NY9fZiEosSkwd6KK8uKRKFxfJTn0n9mNfQAw97dcKw@mail.gmail.com>

After long delay, we can finally share the location of this year's
show!  Room registration is open and awaiting your reservation.  We've
got a new venue this year and that means a new table layout, which
we're hard at work on and will be posted Real Soon Now.  Then we can
start signing up exhibits and vendors.  Look for another announcement
email when we're ready to begin.

Here are the vital accommodation infos:

WHERE:  Waterford Banquets/Clarion Inn, 933 S. Riverside Drive, Elmhurst, IL
WHEN: September 14-15, 2019
HOW MUCH: We have a group rate of $109/night for single or double-bed rooms
RESERVATIONS: We have a direct link for our group code.  Note that the
dates default to the entire block (Wed-Mon) and you will have to
adjust them to your needs.
LINK: https://www.choicehotels.com/reservations/groups/gw24z4
OTHER STUFF: Please make use of our group code if you're staying with
us. Every room (and room-night) counts toward reducing our venue costs
and increases the chances of being invited back next year!  If you
book with AAA or another group plan, please let the hotel know that
you are attending VCF Midwest and they will credit your stay to our
block.

RESERVATIONS MUST BE MADE BY AUGUST 24, 2019! NO GROUP RATE WILL BE
HONORED AFTER THAT DATE!

Note: If the online form is not working or not giving you the group
rate, please call the hotel directly at 630-279-0700 before contacting
us!

Oh yes, we figured new location = new era = new website.  Besides,
some found the old site a bit unfriendly and primitive, what with all
that green monospace nonsense, like it's some kind of old computer or
something.  This new "interactive[1]" look is sure to impress.
Surely. nothing says "user-friendly" like... http://vcfmw.org

Thanks to all and we'll see you in September,

-j

[1] In that it's "not batch".

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon Jun 10 04:56:30 2019
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 11:56:30 +0200
Subject: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics)
 running in MAME
In-Reply-To: <066502a6-b9d6-0b12-364c-00037b83cf42@bitsavers.org>
References: <066502a6-b9d6-0b12-364c-00037b83cf42@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <20190610095630.2a3dnxf6dvc75xsb@Update.UU.SE>

That is impressive! Is it close to real time we are seeing?

/P

On Thu, Jun 06, 2019 at 10:38:35AM -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> pretty cool..
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6E0_qgfGGQ
> 

From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 06:57:34 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:57:34 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <c1c262e5fc7e26c5b73675450230b05602addbf0.camel@agj.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <c1c262e5fc7e26c5b73675450230b05602addbf0.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCF_GC6fxT4A0GHaMNBhWfK3J48=j1Lueoqko+T9tc6QFQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 9 Jun 2019 at 13:45, Stefan Skoglund <stefan.skoglund at agj.net> wrote:
>
> The economist wrote about this (
> https://www.economist.com/briefing/2019/06/08/how-the-pursuit-of-leisure-drives-internet-use
> )
>
> The current situation is this:
> it is much more important for Apple and Samsung to sell overpriced
> things to consumers which then basically only will be used to play
> games, look on sport games and youtube films.

Fair point.

And in the tropics, it is more important than ever that a device is
sealed, waterproof, has no moving parts, etc. -- to keep it tough.
Cheap & replaceable are more important than convenient and repairable.

> What you used the Psion for will only sell about 4 percent of apples
> volumes last year....
> The screen of the machine i write this on, stands on a sun sparcstation
> 10.
> If i had that machine running well i would be as productive writing
> reports on that one as on the asus tower which i now uses.

I know what you mean, and I agree.

I just wish a few more companies thought like Planet Computers and
tried to make devices for rich niches, rather than the cheap mass
market...

https://planetcom.squarespace.com/


-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 06:58:53 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:58:53 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <dd0e959ec48dbf14b3f203c76b994df353c8c2a5.camel@agj.net>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd0e959ec48dbf14b3f203c76b994df353c8c2a5.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCH2LPMGq62_GHJOS0G-TFCZzc9JGYL_Wpv4XartfN9xGw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 9 Jun 2019 at 13:49, Stefan Skoglund <stefan.skoglund at agj.net> wrote:
>
> I also hate my samsung a5 mobile - the stupid thing
> doesnt have something which the two ericsson mobiles i used before (and
> a nokia and i believe a samsung to) had.
>
> Namely a small led which was on all the time. A great thing when
> you need to look for the damn things while it is dark.
>
> For example in the car or in bed or out in the nature inside a tent.
>
> Stupid little things...
>
> that little led usually changed colour when the battery became low.

Agreed again. My old Mac mini had a power LED. It pulsed softly when asleep.

The iMac that has replaced it has nothing. I can't tell if it is on,
off, asleep or what.

The cost saving of this change must be too small to measure. :-)

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Mon Jun 10 08:44:50 2019
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:44:50 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCF_GC6fxT4A0GHaMNBhWfK3J48=j1Lueoqko+T9tc6QFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <c1c262e5fc7e26c5b73675450230b05602addbf0.camel@agj.net>
 <CAMTenCF_GC6fxT4A0GHaMNBhWfK3J48=j1Lueoqko+T9tc6QFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190610134450.qd7dmsed67fyyfsc@mooli.org.uk>

On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 01:57:34PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> I just wish a few more companies thought like Planet Computers and tried to
> make devices for rich niches, rather than the cheap mass market...
> https://planetcom.squarespace.com/

So long as said companies don't just make yet another Android device based on a
cheap-and-nasty Mediatek SOC which requires proprietary Android-only drivers to
work well, and then make misleading claims about Linux support.

The Gemini's keyboard was very much a take-my-money-now feature when I saw it,
but since it was being crowdfunded on Indiegogo, the platform for stuff too
dodgy for Kickstarter, I decided to exercise caution and wait to see what, if
anything, would be delivered. When they finally admitted it had a Mediatek
chipset, I lost all interest. Been there, done that, never again.

Planet are right now crowdfunding their new "Cosmo Communicator". They have
apparently learned nothing as it also has a Mediatek chipset, and yet they
continue to disingenuously claim Linux support. I shall be giving this one a
wide berth too.

Third time lucky, eh? Maybe they should start talking to the Raspberry Pi
people who actually know a thing or two about getting Linux working well on
mobile chipsets.


From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Mon Jun 10 08:51:11 2019
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:51:11 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCH2LPMGq62_GHJOS0G-TFCZzc9JGYL_Wpv4XartfN9xGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd0e959ec48dbf14b3f203c76b994df353c8c2a5.camel@agj.net>
 <CAMTenCH2LPMGq62_GHJOS0G-TFCZzc9JGYL_Wpv4XartfN9xGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190610135111.abvyum4mdwmn345k@mooli.org.uk>

On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 01:58:53PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> Agreed again. My old Mac mini had a power LED. It pulsed softly when asleep.
> The iMac that has replaced it has nothing. I can't tell if it is on,
> off, asleep or what.
> The cost saving of this change must be too small to measure. :-)

Adding pockets ruins the look, or something.

They're not even charging "only" ?54.99 for a Thunderbolt-to-power-LED dongle,
so this particular essential component wasn't removed for the usual reason.


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 09:44:44 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:44:44 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <20190610134450.qd7dmsed67fyyfsc@mooli.org.uk>
References: <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <c1c262e5fc7e26c5b73675450230b05602addbf0.camel@agj.net>
 <CAMTenCF_GC6fxT4A0GHaMNBhWfK3J48=j1Lueoqko+T9tc6QFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190610134450.qd7dmsed67fyyfsc@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGMzCwPjO9mwdkH4HRaypZpk6HdpbqO=TfmSBMk8Yte5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 at 15:45, Peter Corlett via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> So long as said companies don't just make yet another Android device based on a
> cheap-and-nasty Mediatek SOC which requires proprietary Android-only drivers to
> work well, and then make misleading claims about Linux support.

Don't all phone chipsets require Android drivers?

And on that point, so does the RasPi.

> The Gemini's keyboard was very much a take-my-money-now feature when I saw it,
> but since it was being crowdfunded on Indiegogo, the platform for stuff too
> dodgy for Kickstarter, I decided to exercise caution and wait to see what, if
> anything, would be delivered. When they finally admitted it had a Mediatek
> chipset, I lost all interest. Been there, done that, never again.

You pays your money, etc. I'm quite happy with mine. I don't use it as
a phone but for taking notes at conferences and events, for instance,
it's _superb_.

> Planet are right now crowdfunding their new "Cosmo Communicator". They have
> apparently learned nothing as it also has a Mediatek chipset, and yet they
> continue to disingenuously claim Linux support. I shall be giving this one a
> wide berth too.

On their sales volumes, I think they have to go with whatever is cheap
and customisable on the Chinese market.

One of the sad things about the ARM market is that there is no
industry standard, no baseline to aim for. There isn't even standard
firmware. Lots of devices don't have firmware at all, so every Linux
port is a bare-metal thing, starting with hardware initialisation. A
year or 2 after it goes off the market, it's junk, as nothing will
support it any more.

ARM64 is trying to impose a requirement for UEFI, I believe, but [a]
the legions of cheap kit makers don't care and just ignore it, and [b]
UEFI is horrible.

> Third time lucky, eh? Maybe they should start talking to the Raspberry Pi
> people who actually know a thing or two about getting Linux working well on
> mobile chipsets.

Via big binary BLOBs, yeah, and a weird bootloader that means that the
GPU initialises the system and (I hear) retains some degree of control
over interrupts, making it more or less impossible to run a proper
hypervisor on the things.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 09:49:04 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:49:04 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <20190610135111.abvyum4mdwmn345k@mooli.org.uk>
References: <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd0e959ec48dbf14b3f203c76b994df353c8c2a5.camel@agj.net>
 <CAMTenCH2LPMGq62_GHJOS0G-TFCZzc9JGYL_Wpv4XartfN9xGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190610135111.abvyum4mdwmn345k@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEPXvKPj6cBejUHsXGcjg0EMf5cFpDLz0OR7HsPMRy8VA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 at 15:51, Peter Corlett via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Adding pockets ruins the look, or something.

Yup.

They're going beyond the realm of their own previous products into
such severe minimalism it's becoming inconvenient.

I want an LED to tell me my charge/power status, message status, etc.,
thank you. I want a physical home button. I want a physical headphone
socket. If you want me to buy a ?1000 tablet, then I want multiple
ports, USB and Lightning or whatever. I want to connect a keyboard and
headphones and charge it all at once, thanks.

Since I can't have that, I bought a cheapo Chinese tablet instead, for
less than the cost of a second-hand iPad of similar spec. It does the
job.

It is very pleasant that I have come to a point in my life where I can
afford nice toys like a (second-hand) Retina iMac and what was still a
high-end iPhone when I got it (also 2nd hand).

However, so many features are disappearing from the newer models that
I am not sure they're going to keep me for long...

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon Jun 10 09:56:29 2019
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 07:56:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Kids these days...
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

Get a load of this:
http://www.gopherprotocol.com

I pointed them to RFC 1436 in case they haven't been paying attention.

I eagerly await their next protocols, IPX and TCP/IP!

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Mon Jun 10 10:02:00 2019
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 10:02:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Kids these days...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <1454310754.280968.1560178920884@email.ionos.com>


> On June 10, 2019 at 9:56 AM geneb via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Get a load of this:
> http://www.gopherprotocol.com
> 

For me, the funniest part is the image of a PCB full of 16 pin 74LS chips in DIP packages -- that should REALLY change how people use "mobile" technology

Will

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 10:38:29 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 11:38:29 -0400
Subject: Kids these days...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcU2dsaUbZGDFW6OS5wtWpgW=NOPcZGYnD2ZhZBjz6KSg@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, you fell hard...

--
Will

On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 10:56 AM geneb via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Get a load of this:
> http://www.gopherprotocol.com
>
> I pointed them to RFC 1436 in case they haven't been paying attention.
>
> I eagerly await their next protocols, IPX and TCP/IP!
>
> g.
>
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon Jun 10 11:01:45 2019
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 09:01:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Kids these days...
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcU2dsaUbZGDFW6OS5wtWpgW=NOPcZGYnD2ZhZBjz6KSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dcU2dsaUbZGDFW6OS5wtWpgW=NOPcZGYnD2ZhZBjz6KSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100901220.8733@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2019, William Donzelli wrote:

> Wow, you fell hard...
>

Eh?  (don't top post!)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 11:08:03 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 12:08:03 -0400
Subject: Kids these days...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100901220.8733@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dcU2dsaUbZGDFW6OS5wtWpgW=NOPcZGYnD2ZhZBjz6KSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100901220.8733@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+deTqud-t+xYR+kT3yAhtJ25fuiE3F6A73LiiUwP5oPhyg@mail.gmail.com>

It is a real company, but if you look into the SEC papers, there is a
LOT of shady stuff there. Its sole job may be to move money in and out
of the Ukraine.

--
Will

On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 12:01 PM geneb via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 10 Jun 2019, William Donzelli wrote:
>
> > Wow, you fell hard...
> >
>
> Eh?  (don't top post!)

Adapt.

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon Jun 10 11:14:25 2019
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 09:14:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Kids these days...
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deTqud-t+xYR+kT3yAhtJ25fuiE3F6A73LiiUwP5oPhyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dcU2dsaUbZGDFW6OS5wtWpgW=NOPcZGYnD2ZhZBjz6KSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100901220.8733@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+deTqud-t+xYR+kT3yAhtJ25fuiE3F6A73LiiUwP5oPhyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100913400.8995@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2019, William Donzelli wrote:

> It is a real company, but if you look into the SEC papers, there is a
> LOT of shady stuff there. Its sole job may be to move money in and out
> of the Ukraine.
>
Interesting.  I still don't see how I "fell" for something.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 11:44:32 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 12:44:32 -0400
Subject: Kids these days...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100913400.8995@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dcU2dsaUbZGDFW6OS5wtWpgW=NOPcZGYnD2ZhZBjz6KSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100901220.8733@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+deTqud-t+xYR+kT3yAhtJ25fuiE3F6A73LiiUwP5oPhyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100913400.8995@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dc+QitiuUVvXmQoU_pTQEj8ewFn8FRuEhC1Q-0Y019jTQ@mail.gmail.com>

Well, you said you pointed out the RFC to them...

Did the page not smell fishy to you?

--
Will

On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 12:14 PM geneb via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 10 Jun 2019, William Donzelli wrote:
>
> > It is a real company, but if you look into the SEC papers, there is a
> > LOT of shady stuff there. Its sole job may be to move money in and out
> > of the Ukraine.
> >
> Interesting.  I still don't see how I "fell" for something.
>
> g.
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon Jun 10 11:53:51 2019
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 09:53:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Kids these days...
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dc+QitiuUVvXmQoU_pTQEj8ewFn8FRuEhC1Q-0Y019jTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dcU2dsaUbZGDFW6OS5wtWpgW=NOPcZGYnD2ZhZBjz6KSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100901220.8733@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+deTqud-t+xYR+kT3yAhtJ25fuiE3F6A73LiiUwP5oPhyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100913400.8995@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dc+QitiuUVvXmQoU_pTQEj8ewFn8FRuEhC1Q-0Y019jTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100947220.9684@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2019, William Donzelli wrote:

> Well, you said you pointed out the RFC to them...
>
> Did the page not smell fishy to you?
>
No more so than normal.  They've got at least one "live" trademark going:
http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4802:o29p87.2.1

The dead "gopherinsight" mark was owned by an individual that used the 
same attorney as the live mark, so it's possible that it's a legit company 
powered by randomized buzzword bingo cards...

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 12:01:52 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:01:52 -0400
Subject: Kids these days...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100947220.9684@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dcU2dsaUbZGDFW6OS5wtWpgW=NOPcZGYnD2ZhZBjz6KSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100901220.8733@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+deTqud-t+xYR+kT3yAhtJ25fuiE3F6A73LiiUwP5oPhyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100913400.8995@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dc+QitiuUVvXmQoU_pTQEj8ewFn8FRuEhC1Q-0Y019jTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100947220.9684@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+df7r1MvXmbA9W5ebhaYp=ZVrJ=nM9LFOzgZYXV-nUK1Gw@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, it is a legit company - the SEC filings could not faked on the
government website.

I went down a quick rabbit hole, and I saw things about the HQ being
in Kiev, 1000 to 1 stock splits, and so forth.

No one would ever invest in that company unless they specifically
wanted weird things to happen to their money in a sort-of-legal
half-ass paper trail sort of way.

--
Will

On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 12:53 PM geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 10 Jun 2019, William Donzelli wrote:
>
> > Well, you said you pointed out the RFC to them...
> >
> > Did the page not smell fishy to you?
> >
> No more so than normal.  They've got at least one "live" trademark going:
> http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4802:o29p87.2.1
>
> The dead "gopherinsight" mark was owned by an individual that used the
> same attorney as the live mark, so it's possible that it's a legit company
> powered by randomized buzzword bingo cards...
>
> g.
>
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From echristopherson at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 12:11:51 2019
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 12:11:51 -0500
Subject: Kids these days...
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dc+QitiuUVvXmQoU_pTQEj8ewFn8FRuEhC1Q-0Y019jTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dcU2dsaUbZGDFW6OS5wtWpgW=NOPcZGYnD2ZhZBjz6KSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100901220.8733@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+deTqud-t+xYR+kT3yAhtJ25fuiE3F6A73LiiUwP5oPhyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100913400.8995@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dc+QitiuUVvXmQoU_pTQEj8ewFn8FRuEhC1Q-0Y019jTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADyB93DV5m7JNbgOE46SnegRdbgtoQ-WC_zTgA3g8rBZLsU7YA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 11:44 AM William Donzelli via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Well, you said you pointed out the RFC to them...
>
> Did the page not smell fishy to you?
>
> --
> Will
>

It looked/sounded like typical IoT marketing speak to me :)


>
> On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 12:14 PM geneb via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 10 Jun 2019, William Donzelli wrote:
> >
> > > It is a real company, but if you look into the SEC papers, there is a
> > > LOT of shady stuff there. Its sole job may be to move money in and out
> > > of the Ukraine.
> > >
> > Interesting.  I still don't see how I "fell" for something.
> >
> > g.
> >
> > --
> > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> > Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
> >
> > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
>


-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From pieroandreini at vodafone.it  Mon Jun 10 09:58:40 2019
From: pieroandreini at vodafone.it (Piero Andreini)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:58:40 +0200
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8 (alan@alanlee.org)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1560099600.12009.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1560099600.12009.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <46E4172B-50E7-41F9-B012-E2B918D56F29@vodafone.it>


> L series are combinatorial only.  You (or someone who has a working one) 
> should be able to figure out a logic map by either running through all 
> the input permutation or putting it in a reader that will do the same 
> (vs reading the fuse data).
> 
> -Alan
> 
> Good luck.

unfortunately I don't have a working PAL, that's why I'm looking for the jedec file

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 10 10:46:38 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:46:38 +0000
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8 (alan@alanlee.org)
In-Reply-To: <46E4172B-50E7-41F9-B012-E2B918D56F29@vodafone.it>
References: <mailman.3.1560099600.12009.cctech@classiccmp.org>,
 <46E4172B-50E7-41F9-B012-E2B918D56F29@vodafone.it>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB560809829422DA4BE9D9348CA3130@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Again, is it just an address decoder or something more complicated. One can often determine the logic by looking at a schematic and knowing what it needs to do.
Dwight
________________________________
From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Piero Andreini via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 7:58 AM
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (alan at alanlee.org)


> L series are combinatorial only.  You (or someone who has a working one)
> should be able to figure out a logic map by either running through all
> the input permutation or putting it in a reader that will do the same
> (vs reading the fuse data).
>
> -Alan
>
> Good luck.

unfortunately I don't have a working PAL, that's why I'm looking for the jedec file

From pieroandreini at vodafone.it  Mon Jun 10 11:43:50 2019
From: pieroandreini at vodafone.it (Piero Andreini)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 18:43:50 +0200
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8 (alan@alanlee.org)
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB560809829422DA4BE9D9348CA3130@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <mailman.3.1560099600.12009.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <46E4172B-50E7-41F9-B012-E2B918D56F29@vodafone.it>
 <BYAPR01MB560809829422DA4BE9D9348CA3130@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <F83A155B-047D-47D6-8F71-B2042199CDA3@vodafone.it>

Yes it?s true but my knowledge is not enough to do it. Maybe you would like to take a look at schematic?
http://www.hpmuseum.net/capcha/freecap_wrap.php?r=4020 <http://www.hpmuseum.net/capcha/freecap_wrap.php?r=4020>

The output signal /HPIBGr from pin 18 of the PAL (sheet 17) is stuck at 3 Volts (even disconnecting the pin to the pcb), consequently the /DPEn signal always remains at logic level 1, (sheet 12) so the Peripheral Data Bus is never connected to the Processor Data Bus. (pin /enable 74LS245 IC U54 sheet 12)
I also tested U93 (sheet 12) driving the signal /HPIBGr by a signal injector and is working. 

Obviously trying to read the PAL (which doesn't seem to be protected) I got something that doesn't make any sense.

Piero

> Il giorno 10 giu 2019, alle ore 17:46, dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> ha scritto:
> 
> Again, is it just an address decoder or something more complicated. One can often determine the logic by looking at a schematic and knowing what it needs to do.
> Dwight
> From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Piero Andreini via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 7:58 AM
> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (alan at alanlee.org)
>  
> 
> > L series are combinatorial only.  You (or someone who has a working one) 
> > should be able to figure out a logic map by either running through all 
> > the input permutation or putting it in a reader that will do the same 
> > (vs reading the fuse data).
> > 
> > -Alan
> > 
> > Good luck.
> 
> unfortunately I don't have a working PAL, that's why I'm looking for the jedec file


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Jun 10 13:11:52 2019
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 11:11:52 -0700
Subject: Kids these days...
In-Reply-To: <CANij+df7r1MvXmbA9W5ebhaYp=ZVrJ=nM9LFOzgZYXV-nUK1Gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dcU2dsaUbZGDFW6OS5wtWpgW=NOPcZGYnD2ZhZBjz6KSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100901220.8733@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+deTqud-t+xYR+kT3yAhtJ25fuiE3F6A73LiiUwP5oPhyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100913400.8995@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dc+QitiuUVvXmQoU_pTQEj8ewFn8FRuEhC1Q-0Y019jTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100947220.9684@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+df7r1MvXmbA9W5ebhaYp=ZVrJ=nM9LFOzgZYXV-nUK1Gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7F3E6943-667F-4208-9507-35990144A41E@nf6x.net>

I wouldn?t invest in an IoT buzzword company whose web page admits that the products they are talking about don?t exist yet, headed by a non-engineer, even without the fishy international money laundering smell. It?s interesting how quickly you ferreted that out, William. I don?t have a clue about business stuff like that. 

Yesterday I saw a company car for a presumed IT service company called Telnet something or other. I don?t think I would rely on Telnet for my information security needs. 

--
Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Mon Jun 10 13:39:27 2019
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 20:39:27 +0200
Subject: Kids these days...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <20190610183927.GA20570@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 07:56:29AM -0700, geneb via cctalk wrote:
> Get a load of this:
> http://www.gopherprotocol.com
> 
> I pointed them to RFC 1436 in case they haven't been paying attention.

The lousy page does not open in any of four browsers I tried (lynx,
w3m, dillo, even firefox). Finally, cache from goog opened in FF. They
claim to be revolutionary, then proceed to talk about personal
tracking via bracelets and something about tracking animals. So, is
this goobbledybook about home arrested criminals? I think I watched a
movie with very beautiful Robin Tunney who had been chained wirelessly
and waited for prosecution in some decrepit location.

Since their description of themselves is not very clear, I guess they
are going to dissapear.

> I eagerly await their next protocols, IPX and TCP/IP!

Please. No. Wait. Can they write an operating system, say, let's call
it Windows for IoTs?

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Mon Jun 10 13:43:49 2019
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 11:43:49 -0700
Subject: Kids these days...
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deTqud-t+xYR+kT3yAhtJ25fuiE3F6A73LiiUwP5oPhyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dcU2dsaUbZGDFW6OS5wtWpgW=NOPcZGYnD2ZhZBjz6KSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100901220.8733@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+deTqud-t+xYR+kT3yAhtJ25fuiE3F6A73LiiUwP5oPhyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <40c88ba61a8d2cf8@orthanc.ca>

William Donzelli via cctalk writes:
> It is a real company, but if you look into the SEC papers, there is a
> LOT of shady stuff there. Its sole job may be to move money in and out
> of the Ukraine.

I was going to shy away from those thoughts, but ...

* a "new" startup, since 2009?

* actual patent *numbers* to back up the claims?

It all looks pretty bogus.

From sales at elecplus.com  Mon Jun 10 14:04:23 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 14:04:23 -0500
Subject: Old soaftware and documentation
Message-ID: <04ac01d51fbf$516bc6d0$f4435470$@com>

I have a large qty to donate to a vintage computer group. I do not want to
ship. Someone in Austin or San Antonio area want to come and get it?

I would like it gone before this Saturday.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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From sales at elecplus.com  Mon Jun 10 14:05:56 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 14:05:56 -0500
Subject: June 22
Message-ID: <04b101d51fbf$88a30fa0$99e92ee0$@com>

My warehouse will be open on Sat, Jun 22, from 10-3 for anyone that wants to
come scrounge. I am 1 hour from San Antonio, or 2.5 hours from Austin, or
4-5 hours from Houston or Dallas (in decent traffic and weather).

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Jun 10 14:07:40 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:07:40 -0600
Subject: Old soaftware and documentation
In-Reply-To: <04ac01d51fbf$516bc6d0$f4435470$@com>
References: <04ac01d51fbf$516bc6d0$f4435470$@com>
Message-ID: <6bb191f9-baff-3bb6-6811-1b38f62912ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/10/19 1:04 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote:
> I have a large qty to donate to a vintage computer group. I do not want to
> ship. Someone in Austin or San Antonio area want to come and get it?
> 
> I would like it gone before this Saturday.

How large is large?  Are we talking fills a desk top?  A Gaylord?  More?

Please take pictures of it.  Hopefully the titles / versions can be 
identified.

I'll socialize it with people in my community.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Jun 10 15:15:30 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:15:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Old soaftware and documentation
Message-ID: <20190610201530.481DF18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>


    > From: Cindy Croxton

    > I have a large qty to donate

Roughly what does it go to - old PC's; Windows boxes; etc?

	Noel

From sales at elecplus.com  Mon Jun 10 15:33:55 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:33:55 -0500
Subject: Old soaftware and documentation
In-Reply-To: <20190610201530.481DF18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190610201530.481DF18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <052f01d51fcb$d3a13fc0$7ae3bf40$@com>

    > From: Cindy Croxton

    > I have a large qty to donate

Roughly what does it go to - old PC's; Windows boxes; etc?

	Noel

DOS/early Windows/Tandy for the most part
A small amount of SCO and other odd Unix type stuff.

Cindy


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Mon Jun 10 15:42:42 2019
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:42:42 -0700
Subject: Kids these days...
In-Reply-To: <7F3E6943-667F-4208-9507-35990144A41E@nf6x.net>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dcU2dsaUbZGDFW6OS5wtWpgW=NOPcZGYnD2ZhZBjz6KSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100901220.8733@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+deTqud-t+xYR+kT3yAhtJ25fuiE3F6A73LiiUwP5oPhyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100913400.8995@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dc+QitiuUVvXmQoU_pTQEj8ewFn8FRuEhC1Q-0Y019jTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100947220.9684@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+df7r1MvXmbA9W5ebhaYp=ZVrJ=nM9LFOzgZYXV-nUK1Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7F3E6943-667F-4208-9507-35990144A41E@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <276FCC48-BD07-40DC-9880-7D8005859489@shaw.ca>

On 2019-Jun-10, at 11:11 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:
> I wouldn?t invest in an IoT buzzword company whose web page admits that the products they are talking about don?t exist yet, headed by a non-engineer, even without the fishy international money laundering smell. It?s interesting how quickly you ferreted that out, William. I don?t have a clue about business stuff like that. 
> 
> Yesterday I saw a company car for a presumed IT service company called Telnet something or other. I don?t think I would rely on Telnet for my information security needs. 


The disclaimer at the bottom of the page is good for a laugh, and could be a hint.	
> 	http://www.gopherprotocol.com

Summary:
What we say here isn't what we are doing, it's what we might do in the future.
And if we change our minds or can't do it, don't expect us to tell you.

Summary of summary:
Don't trust anything we say.


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 15:46:58 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:46:58 -0400
Subject: Kids these days...
In-Reply-To: <276FCC48-BD07-40DC-9880-7D8005859489@shaw.ca>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100754020.6470@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dcU2dsaUbZGDFW6OS5wtWpgW=NOPcZGYnD2ZhZBjz6KSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100901220.8733@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+deTqud-t+xYR+kT3yAhtJ25fuiE3F6A73LiiUwP5oPhyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100913400.8995@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+dc+QitiuUVvXmQoU_pTQEj8ewFn8FRuEhC1Q-0Y019jTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906100947220.9684@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANij+df7r1MvXmbA9W5ebhaYp=ZVrJ=nM9LFOzgZYXV-nUK1Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7F3E6943-667F-4208-9507-35990144A41E@nf6x.net>
 <276FCC48-BD07-40DC-9880-7D8005859489@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <CANij+deu2of=M_XQTp5zLeDT2uOfgpxUMtdJib67s1=s2Vg5ew@mail.gmail.com>

> The disclaimer at the bottom of the page is good for a laugh, and could be a hint.
> >       http://www.gopherprotocol.com

That is pretty boilerplate legal, actually.

--
Will

From rtomek at ceti.pl  Mon Jun 10 15:57:39 2019
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 22:57:39 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190610205739.GB20570@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Thu, Jun 06, 2019 at 01:43:40PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 at 20:06, Fred Cisin via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > I don't think that my Fossil (Palm-OS WATCH) does IRDA.
> > I should find somebody who will pay me money for such a piece of
> > crap^H^H^H^H NEAT technology.
> 
[...]
> 
> Now? No keyboards at all.
> 
> No, I am not happy about that, either.
> 
> I could read the screens of my Psion and Nokia in bright sunshine.
> American-design ones are slowly edging back towards that, but it's
> still difficult. Daylight-readable screens have disappeared from the
> market.
> 
> I'm not happy about that, either.
> 
> My Psions and Nokias had bulletproof OSes that lasted for years
> without a single update, and yes, they were Internet-connected by the
> last few generations. They ran in a few tens of megabytes of
> nonvolatile storage.
> 
> Now, my tablet and iPhone and Android phones need *at least* 3 or 4
> apps updating every day. If I don't use one for a few weeks, it's just
> like Windows -- I have to do half an hour of updates before I can use
> it. The OS needs to be replaced every month or two to fix all the
> flaws in it, and that's a gigabyte or so of storage.
> 
> I am *furious* about this.

I share the sentiment and I guess I could give similar description
(yours was very interesting, BTW).  If I had a privilege to own
Psion. But, when I went on for shopping, Psion was already bowing out
of the PDA market. So I bought Compaq iPAQ 3630, installed Familiar
Linux on it and hoped there would be a future when PDAs can be
bought. Hoho, I was so wrong. But while researching, I could on one
ocassion tap a bit on this excellent Psion 5mx keyboard in a shop. I
think about this keyboard to this very day.

About displays: my ideal display was the one from iPAQ (they were also
used in other handheld PDAs of the time). It was called transflective
LCD. They are easily recognized, because the light can be permamently
turned off. "Normal" LCD has a backlight, i.e. a layer of
leds/incandescents which shine through from the back of the display
towards the user. Transflectives have special reflective layer in the
back, and a diode on a side. The external light reflects and shines
back through the crystal layer. Sorry for laymanish description, but I
hope I have got it right.

Anyway, such display looked best in full sun. The one in 3630 could
display 4096 colors (with spectrum slightly bent towards pinky). Later
iPAQ models could do 65k colors (again slightly bent, but this time
much less visible). I used mine PDA as a proto ebook reader, lots of
html and pdb material read outdoors. The same kind of LCD was to be
found in many phones.

For whatever reason, morons decided the shiny LCD should be next best
thing. And transflective got lost. Just like this. Nada. Appears like
the very meaning of "mobile" changed during last twenty years - first
it meant "outdoors" and now it means "from one couch to another,
indoors".

> "The JesusPhone, I swear it is smiling at me: Come to me. come to me
> and be saved. The luscious curves, the polished glissade of the icons
> in the multi-touch interface - whoever designed that thing is an
> intuitive illusionist, I realise fuzzily as my fingertip closes in on
> the screen: That's at least a class five glamour."
> (Charles Stross, /The Fuller Memorandum/)
> 
> They're very shiny. They do a lot.
> 
> But I had a better *phone* and a better *PDA* 20 years ago. The whole
> is much less than the sum of its parts.

Twenty years ago people using such tech were easily falling into
"elite users" of some kind. Either because of earnings or because they
had nontrivial needs and were decided to satisfy them - and the
machines reflected this. Not so with todays users, and again, machines
reflect this.

I am rather baffled whenever I read Psion had milion users and yet
this was not enough for them. Plenty of people would consider
themselves lucky if their books, cars or games were bought by this
many. The attitude of Psion managers is totally disgusting for me,
unless I had not taken something into account.

Perhaps niche technical products should be sold by those who
understand niche markets. I imagine that if I came to manager of niche
recording label and suggested he should get rid of musicians and start
recording some generic crap outsourced from other side of the world to
"reduce costs" I guess I would fly out the window with his boot in my
arse. In contrast, I imagine that coming with similar proposition to
manager of huge (so called) tech firm I would get a bl**job and some
of his shares. But maybe I am romantic.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 18:23:15 2019
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 20:23:15 -0300
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
In-Reply-To: <FED07607-8247-444A-B146-A57248713F85@gmail.com>
References: <FED07607-8247-444A-B146-A57248713F85@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a54b36ab-676e-a0cc-377f-904f81a50cd2@gmail.com>


On 2019-06-08 7:14 a.m., Piero Andreini via cctalk wrote:
> desperately looking for jedec file of PAL 16L8 position U69 part # 1820-2991

I pulled the CPU board out of my HP9816 and was happy to see that the 
component in question is in a socket however there is a problem.? The 
component in mine is a HAL16L8 note the "H" I found a datasheet and 
apparently in the early days of PALs at MMI you could do your 
development using PALs and then send the equations to MMI and they would 
produce a mask programmed semi custom chip with the same logic.? The 
problem with this is it does not have a program ROM like a traditional 
PAL so you cannot extract a valid JEDEC from it, I confirmed this by 
dumping it as a PAL16L8 and then decompiling the JED file to extract the 
equations and they are junk, even just browsing the RAW JED looked suspect.

We can hope that it is all combinational logic and I can run trough all 
combinations of inputs and capture the output and we can develop 
equations that way as long as they did not do anything like use feedback 
to create registers as one person suggested could be done.

Paul.




From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 22:44:31 2019
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 04:44:31 +0100
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
In-Reply-To: <a54b36ab-676e-a0cc-377f-904f81a50cd2@gmail.com>
References: <FED07607-8247-444A-B146-A57248713F85@gmail.com>
 <a54b36ab-676e-a0cc-377f-904f81a50cd2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCywk3KmOa9_4aRz5R_YmQyV2t+Tnn8Rp8mohF9HSQgrdQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 12:23 AM Paul Berger via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>
> On 2019-06-08 7:14 a.m., Piero Andreini via cctalk wrote:
> > desperately looking for jedec file of PAL 16L8 position U69 part # 1820-2991

> We can hope that it is all combinational logic and I can run trough all
> combinations of inputs and capture the output and we can develop
> equations that way as long as they did not do anything like use feedback
> to create registers as one person suggested could be done.

You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :

For each combination of inputs :
   Read the outputs
     Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)
     Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they have
changed then there's a sequential function on that input
     Check the next input
  Check the next combination of inputs


It is my guess that the logic in this PAL is much the same as the DMA logic,
etc (but cut down to only support DMA channel 0) of the HP98624 HPIB card.
This board uses only TTL, no PAL, so you might be able to work out suitable
equations from that.

-tony

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Jun 10 23:19:09 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 21:19:09 -0700
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
In-Reply-To: <CAHkUCCywk3KmOa9_4aRz5R_YmQyV2t+Tnn8Rp8mohF9HSQgrdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FED07607-8247-444A-B146-A57248713F85@gmail.com>
 <a54b36ab-676e-a0cc-377f-904f81a50cd2@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCywk3KmOa9_4aRz5R_YmQyV2t+Tnn8Rp8mohF9HSQgrdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e2942c34-f8e3-70cb-bee9-c10043dacee7@sydex.com>

On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:

> 
> You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :
> 
> For each combination of inputs :
>    Read the outputs
>      Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)
>      Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they have
> changed then there's a sequential function on that input
>      Check the next input
>   Check the next combination of inputs

For purely combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over at
vcfed.org; I did the work to clone a few PALs some years ago and
documented the process.

FWIW, the setup to do this was a few TTL ICs connected to the parallel
port of a PC.   Nowadays, I'd probably do the same with an inexpensive
MCU--the programmable nature of MCU pins lends a certain amount of
flexibility to the process.

Basically, you separate the inputs from the outputs and then run all
combinations of the inputs, observing the outputs.   If the tristate
feature is used on outputs, there's a way to discover the difference
between a tristated pin and a genuine input.

There are a number of tools to perform reduction on the results, such as
Logic Friday.   After that, you're left with a bunch of logic equations
that can be fed into a PAL/GAL assembler and programmed.

--Chuck

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 04:17:50 2019
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 05:17:50 -0400
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
In-Reply-To: <e2942c34-f8e3-70cb-bee9-c10043dacee7@sydex.com>
References: <FED07607-8247-444A-B146-A57248713F85@gmail.com>
 <a54b36ab-676e-a0cc-377f-904f81a50cd2@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCywk3KmOa9_4aRz5R_YmQyV2t+Tnn8Rp8mohF9HSQgrdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e2942c34-f8e3-70cb-bee9-c10043dacee7@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <0e0401d52036$8b968d00$a2c3a700$@gmail.com>

>-----Original Message-----
>From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk
>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 12:19 AM
>To: Tony Duell via cctalk
>Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8
>
>On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
>
>> You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :
>> 
>> For each combination of inputs :
>>    Read the outputs
>>      Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)
>>      Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they have
>> changed then there's a sequential function on that input
>>      Check the next input
>>   Check the next combination of inputs
>
>For purely combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over at
>vcfed.org; I did the work to clone a few PALs some years ago and
>documented the process.

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?330-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-13 
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?329-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-12-The-Trantor-T130B-memory-PAL 
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?328-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-11 
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?327-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-10 
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?326-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-9 
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?325-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-8 
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?321-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-7) 
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?320-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-6) 
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?319-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-5) 
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?318-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-4) 
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?316-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-3) 
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?315-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-2) 
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?314-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-1) 

A nice read.  When does the article/book get self-published :->?

-----
paul


From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 06:05:45 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 13:05:45 +0200
Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Found on Hackernews but by our very own Seth Morabito...

?
This is what makes a PDP-11/35 or PDP-11/40 tick. It turns out to be
441 ICs. Impressive!
?

https://loomcom.com/blog/0044_what_makes_a_pdp_11_35_tick.html



-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 06:10:26 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 13:10:26 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <20190610205739.GB20570@tau1.ceti.pl>
References: <270d3930-b70f-c660-047c-9002adaf43e7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8aecfa6f-4196-d23c-e823-b39ee91a126d@gmail.com>
 <0cd56a29-50aa-f0bc-886a-7acc88b0c9ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <E8E6019E-BC2E-4CC5-8A58-42F33F6E9420@johnlabovitz.com>
 <CAMTenCH2ogBw_-JpCtk891eBy6c3mqJ7P+NE33T5xZouO+sLuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB408862DAB73A05634345BDFBED160@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCG4rcOi=GuEnZ8=-8M_VQ5pXo+XvyWNhCDZj_Fo-QttvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906051102320.28174@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFOK8rxmEQB1nQvMwODEDZppnCdSUfOJeRmej06Y1rRqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190610205739.GB20570@tau1.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFC2QaR2+3c20CXnioY3-aMxVbJKNkPrxCKhs9vDFRfMA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 at 22:57, Tomasz Rola via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> I share the sentiment and I guess I could give similar description
> (yours was very interesting, BTW).

Thank you!

> If I had a privilege to own
> Psion. But, when I went on for shopping, Psion was already bowing out
> of the PDA market. So I bought Compaq iPAQ 3630, installed Familiar
> Linux on it and hoped there would be a future when PDAs can be
> bought. Hoho, I was so wrong. But while researching, I could on one
> ocassion tap a bit on this excellent Psion 5mx keyboard in a shop. I
> think about this keyboard to this very day.

Nothing ever was better and fitted in your pocket. *Nothing*.

> About displays: my ideal display was the one from iPAQ (they were also
> used in other handheld PDAs of the time). It was called transflective
> LCD. They are easily recognized, because the light can be permamently
> turned off. "Normal" LCD has a backlight, i.e. a layer of
> leds/incandescents which shine through from the back of the display
> towards the user. Transflectives have special reflective layer in the
> back, and a diode on a side. The external light reflects and shines
> back through the crystal layer. Sorry for laymanish description, but I
> hope I have got it right.
>
> Anyway, such display looked best in full sun. The one in 3630 could
> display 4096 colors (with spectrum slightly bent towards pinky). Later
> iPAQ models could do 65k colors (again slightly bent, but this time
> much less visible). I used mine PDA as a proto ebook reader, lots of
> html and pdb material read outdoors. The same kind of LCD was to be
> found in many phones.

Fascinating. I did not know transreflective LCDs were in PDAs. I only
knew of them from the One Laptop Per Child project. There was an
attempt to "productize" them as Pixel Qi but it died:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Qi
> For whatever reason, morons decided the shiny LCD should be next best

> thing. And transflective got lost. Just like this. Nada. Appears like
> the very meaning of "mobile" changed during last twenty years - first
> it meant "outdoors" and now it means "from one couch to another,
> indoors".

A tragic loss for all of us. Triple-layer transmissive LCDs are a
terrible bodge of a technology, and it is only because they are so bad
that things like OLED look like good alternatives.

But since it is all that anyone knows now, we think they are great.

> Twenty years ago people using such tech were easily falling into
> "elite users" of some kind. Either because of earnings or because they
> had nontrivial needs and were decided to satisfy them - and the
> machines reflected this. Not so with todays users, and again, machines
> reflect this.

Yes, true.

> I am rather baffled whenever I read Psion had milion users and yet
> this was not enough for them. Plenty of people would consider
> themselves lucky if their books, cars or games were bought by this
> many. The attitude of Psion managers is totally disgusting for me,
> unless I had not taken something into account.

Agreed.

This is something  Planet Computers understands and I hope that it continues to.

> Perhaps niche technical products should be sold by those who
> understand niche markets. I imagine that if I came to manager of niche
> recording label and suggested he should get rid of musicians and start
> recording some generic crap outsourced from other side of the world to
> "reduce costs" I guess I would fly out the window with his boot in my
> arse. In contrast, I imagine that coming with similar proposition to
> manager of huge (so called) tech firm I would get a bl**job and some
> of his shares. But maybe I am romantic.

:-D Excellent comparison!


-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 06:33:23 2019
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 07:33:23 -0400
Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>

>-----Original Message-----
>From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven via cctalk
>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 7:06 AM
>To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?
>
>Found on Hackernews but by our very own Seth Morabito...
>
>?
>This is what makes a PDP-11/35 or PDP-11/40 tick. It turns out to be
>441 ICs. Impressive!
>?
>
>https://loomcom.com/blog/0044_what_makes_a_pdp_11_35_tick.html
>
>-- 
>Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven

I wonder what the unlisted 20 ICs are for, and what they are?

List totals 221; claim is 441 ...

-----
paul


From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 07:49:54 2019
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 09:49:54 -0300
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
In-Reply-To: <0e0401d52036$8b968d00$a2c3a700$@gmail.com>
References: <FED07607-8247-444A-B146-A57248713F85@gmail.com>
 <a54b36ab-676e-a0cc-377f-904f81a50cd2@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCywk3KmOa9_4aRz5R_YmQyV2t+Tnn8Rp8mohF9HSQgrdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e2942c34-f8e3-70cb-bee9-c10043dacee7@sydex.com>
 <0e0401d52036$8b968d00$a2c3a700$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6f53e968-651d-234e-a495-422e2ce8acbb@gmail.com>


On 2019-06-11 6:17 a.m., Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 12:19 AM
>> To: Tony Duell via cctalk
>> Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8
>>
>> On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :
>>>
>>> For each combination of inputs :
>>>     Read the outputs
>>>       Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)
>>>       Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they have
>>> changed then there's a sequential function on that input
>>>       Check the next input
>>>    Check the next combination of inputs
>> For purely combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over at
>> vcfed.org; I did the work to clone a few PALs some years ago and
>> documented the process.
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?330-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-13
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?329-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-12-The-Trantor-T130B-memory-PAL
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?328-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-11
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?327-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-10
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?326-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-9
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?325-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-8
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?321-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-7)
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?320-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-6)
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?319-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-5)
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?318-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-4)
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?316-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-3)
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?315-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-2)
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?314-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-1)
>
> A nice read.  When does the article/book get self-published :->?
>
> -----
> paul
>
The process documented above is essentially the process I started last 
night, but in my case I used a GPIO in my HP 9000-332 to cycle through 
the inputs and record the output.? It is very handy to have general 
purpose parallel I/O for purposes like this.? In this case the number of 
possible states is reduced as two of the inputs are permanently tied 
high.? I am well on my well to developing logic equations to feed into 
palasm to generate a new JEDEC file which I can then burn into a GAL and 
test to see if it is correct.

Paul.


From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 07:54:48 2019
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 09:54:48 -0300
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
In-Reply-To: <e2942c34-f8e3-70cb-bee9-c10043dacee7@sydex.com>
References: <FED07607-8247-444A-B146-A57248713F85@gmail.com>
 <a54b36ab-676e-a0cc-377f-904f81a50cd2@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCywk3KmOa9_4aRz5R_YmQyV2t+Tnn8Rp8mohF9HSQgrdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e2942c34-f8e3-70cb-bee9-c10043dacee7@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <404e283e-1b9f-dff5-8d1a-d00fe6a886bb@gmail.com>


On 2019-06-11 1:19 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
>
>> You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :
>>
>> For each combination of inputs :
>>     Read the outputs
>>       Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)
>>       Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they have
>> changed then there's a sequential function on that input
>>       Check the next input
>>    Check the next combination of inputs
> For purely combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over at
> vcfed.org; I did the work to clone a few PALs some years ago and
> documented the process.
>
> FWIW, the setup to do this was a few TTL ICs connected to the parallel
> port of a PC.   Nowadays, I'd probably do the same with an inexpensive
> MCU--the programmable nature of MCU pins lends a certain amount of
> flexibility to the process.
>
> Basically, you separate the inputs from the outputs and then run all
> combinations of the inputs, observing the outputs.   If the tristate
> feature is used on outputs, there's a way to discover the difference
> between a tristated pin and a genuine input.
>
> There are a number of tools to perform reduction on the results, such as
> Logic Friday.   After that, you're left with a bunch of logic equations
> that can be fed into a PAL/GAL assembler and programmed.
>
> --Chuck

Old computer work too, I used a GPIO in a HP 9000-332.? Years ago I also 
created general purpose I/O ports for a PC using 6821 chips since they 
are way more flexible that the Intel? 8255, but the HP 9000 coupled with 
RMB makes for a great environment to bang out quick programs to do 
things like this.

Paul.


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 11 10:17:43 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 15:17:43 +0000
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
In-Reply-To: <404e283e-1b9f-dff5-8d1a-d00fe6a886bb@gmail.com>
References: <FED07607-8247-444A-B146-A57248713F85@gmail.com>
 <a54b36ab-676e-a0cc-377f-904f81a50cd2@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCywk3KmOa9_4aRz5R_YmQyV2t+Tnn8Rp8mohF9HSQgrdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e2942c34-f8e3-70cb-bee9-c10043dacee7@sydex.com>,
 <404e283e-1b9f-dff5-8d1a-d00fe6a886bb@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB56080622AC6788B4C71CCAADA3ED0@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

I realize that most are familiar with using the equations to create the PALs but I'm a circuit person more than an equation person for circuits. When I needed to create a PAL from a schematic, I first made a schematic of what the PAL was suppose to do, using the same basic model of logic that the PAL provided. Once I was done, I took the PAL map from the TI book and made red dots on each of the connections I needed. I'd then go back and add the don't care connections. You know, A*A!. I transposed them to a text file in the JEDEC format ( One needs to add on non-text character as I recall ) I then gave the file to my friend that had a PAL programmer and made the PAL. I made a simple ruler to convert dot locations to column offsets.
While, Most seem to like the algebraic formulas, I find it harder to check than a schematic.
I had one value that I wasn't sure about that require an experimental PAL blown, as the circuit didn't show if the bank select was 0 or 1 at reset.
I've used this method on both the recreation of Jef Raskin's Swyft board and the PAL I needed for my 6532 to 6530 KIM-1 fix ( the KIM took a couple more PALs because as a human, I made some logic mistakes ).
Copying a L type PAL is a little simpler but in the case of the Swyft board it was a R type PAL. Doing it from the schematic, and know what it was suppose to do was much simpler than trying every possible combination of clock and data from the pins of a PAL ( that I didn't have anyway ).
Dwight

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Paul Berger via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 5:54 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8


On 2019-06-11 1:19 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
>
>> You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :
>>
>> For each combination of inputs :
>>     Read the outputs
>>       Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)
>>       Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they have
>> changed then there's a sequential function on that input
>>       Check the next input
>>    Check the next combination of inputs
> For purely combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over at
> vcfed.org; I did the work to clone a few PALs some years ago and
> documented the process.
>
> FWIW, the setup to do this was a few TTL ICs connected to the parallel
> port of a PC.   Nowadays, I'd probably do the same with an inexpensive
> MCU--the programmable nature of MCU pins lends a certain amount of
> flexibility to the process.
>
> Basically, you separate the inputs from the outputs and then run all
> combinations of the inputs, observing the outputs.   If the tristate
> feature is used on outputs, there's a way to discover the difference
> between a tristated pin and a genuine input.
>
> There are a number of tools to perform reduction on the results, such as
> Logic Friday.   After that, you're left with a bunch of logic equations
> that can be fed into a PAL/GAL assembler and programmed.
>
> --Chuck

Old computer work too, I used a GPIO in a HP 9000-332.  Years ago I also
created general purpose I/O ports for a PC using 6821 chips since they
are way more flexible that the Intel  8255, but the HP 9000 coupled with
RMB makes for a great environment to bang out quick programs to do
things like this.

Paul.


From web at loomcom.com  Tue Jun 11 11:15:39 2019
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 09:15:39 -0700
Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?
In-Reply-To: <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <920d2ad6-55bf-4a2a-82d4-dbb8eab63847@www.fastmail.com>


On Tue, Jun 11, 2019, at 4:33 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote:
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven via cctalk
> >
> >Found on Hackernews but by our very own Seth Morabito...
> >
> >"This is what makes a PDP-11/35 or PDP-11/40 tick. It turns out to be
> >441 ICs. Impressive!"
> 
> I wonder what the unlisted 20 ICs are for, and what they are?
> 
> List totals [421]; claim is 441 ...

Oops! Clearly a boneheaded mistake on my part. Time to fix that ancient post of mine...

-Seth
-- 
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA
  web at loomcom.com

From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 11:22:29 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 18:22:29 +0200
Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?
In-Reply-To: <920d2ad6-55bf-4a2a-82d4-dbb8eab63847@www.fastmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>
 <920d2ad6-55bf-4a2a-82d4-dbb8eab63847@www.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE4xoJSnKJ4ga8oDSTB1BBgtYO-99HZMDD4gBv2OrjgFQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 at 18:15, Seth Morabito via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Oops! Clearly a boneheaded mistake on my part. Time to fix that ancient post of mine...

Ancient? It was on HN yesterday!

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20137134

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Jun 11 11:24:47 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 11:24:47 -0500
Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?
In-Reply-To: <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5CFFD5CF.5040103@pico-systems.com>

On 06/11/2019 06:33 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote:
> I wonder what the unlisted 20 ICs are for, and what they are?
I think the 23Bxxxx are microcode ROMS, and the 441 seems to 
be clerical error.

Jon

From new_castle_j at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 11:55:29 2019
From: new_castle_j at yahoo.com (Jonathan Haddox)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 16:55:29 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: TurboDOS for S-100, IMS or L/F Technologies
References: <1994260350.1498101.1560272129120.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1994260350.1498101.1560272129120@mail.yahoo.com>

I'm restoring an IMS - L/F Technologies S-100 Bus computer.? I've got all the pieces except for the Operating System.? I'm hoping that someone here may have a disk stashed away.? From the literature I have read, I would need TurboDOS version 1.40a or 1.41c from IMS or L/F Technologies.? I've seen TurboDOS 1.3 versions out in the wild from IMS, but the 1.4 version was greatly enhanced and offered better compatibility with my specific hardware.? I'd be much obliged if anyone can help.

Thanks,

Jonathan
new_castle_j  at yahoo

From web at loomcom.com  Tue Jun 11 12:11:23 2019
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 10:11:23 -0700
Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCE4xoJSnKJ4ga8oDSTB1BBgtYO-99HZMDD4gBv2OrjgFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>
 <920d2ad6-55bf-4a2a-82d4-dbb8eab63847@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAMTenCE4xoJSnKJ4ga8oDSTB1BBgtYO-99HZMDD4gBv2OrjgFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3bb83d8d-41b6-4b77-a325-92e6ec902f16@www.fastmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 11, 2019, at 9:22 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 at 18:15, Seth Morabito via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Oops! Clearly a boneheaded mistake on my part. Time to fix that ancient post of mine...
> 
> Ancient? It was on HN yesterday!
> 
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20137134

It's not my fault they found a blog post I made in 2012 yesterday! :^)

-Seth
-- 
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA
  web at loomcom.com

From ian at platinum.net  Tue Jun 11 12:14:48 2019
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 10:14:48 -0700
Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?
In-Reply-To: <3bb83d8d-41b6-4b77-a325-92e6ec902f16@www.fastmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>
 <920d2ad6-55bf-4a2a-82d4-dbb8eab63847@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAMTenCE4xoJSnKJ4ga8oDSTB1BBgtYO-99HZMDD4gBv2OrjgFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <3bb83d8d-41b6-4b77-a325-92e6ec902f16@www.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <C4472C87-6E1B-40ED-8412-62FA92588590@platinum.net>



> On Jun 11, 2019, at 10:11 AM, Seth Morabito via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> It's not my fault they found a blog post I made in 2012 yesterday! :^)

Almost as bad as desperately looking for a fix for something, and coming across your own posting from 15 years ago with the solution :)

Ian


From blstuart at bellsouth.net  Tue Jun 11 12:44:31 2019
From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 17:44:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
References: <1070719353.1246219.1560275071630.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1070719353.1246219.1560275071630@mail.yahoo.com>

On Tue, 6/11/19, dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> When I needed to create a PAL from a schematic, I first made
> a schematic of what the PAL was suppose to do, using the
> same basic model of logic that the PAL provided. Once I was
> done, I took the PAL map from the TI book and made red dots
> on each of the connections I needed. I'd then go back

I thought I was the only one!  Back when I first used a PAL, I
also photocopied the page from the databook, marked up
the connections I wanted, and then asked my coworkers
how to get that programmed into the device.  It was pretty
annoying to learn I had to convert it to equations first.  It
seemed like a pointless extra step when the software was
just going to turn around and turn the equations back into
the matrix wiring I had just marked up.

BLS

From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 12:54:49 2019
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 18:54:49 +0100
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
In-Reply-To: <6f53e968-651d-234e-a495-422e2ce8acbb@gmail.com>
References: <FED07607-8247-444A-B146-A57248713F85@gmail.com>
 <a54b36ab-676e-a0cc-377f-904f81a50cd2@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCywk3KmOa9_4aRz5R_YmQyV2t+Tnn8Rp8mohF9HSQgrdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e2942c34-f8e3-70cb-bee9-c10043dacee7@sydex.com>
 <0e0401d52036$8b968d00$a2c3a700$@gmail.com>
 <6f53e968-651d-234e-a495-422e2ce8acbb@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCwZtaDiygFG-KpOHw4ddARbC96PKVf-Be38QkLnKGw_xg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 1:50 PM Paul Berger via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> The process documented above is essentially the process I started last
> night, but in my case I used a GPIO in my HP 9000-332 to cycle through
> the inputs and record the output.  It is very handy to have general
> purpose parallel I/O for purposes like this.  In this case the number of
> possible states is reduced as two of the inputs are permanently tied
> high.  I am well on my well to developing logic equations to feed into
> palasm to generate a new JEDEC file which I can then burn into a GAL and
> test to see if it is correct.

I have just remembered something that I guess you realised some time
back...

The 16L8 allows you to tri-state outputs under logic control (I think there's
one AND term for the output control of each output). I suspect this is used
in ths PAL, certainly for things like DMAR0 and DMARdy which go onto the
backplane connector (and thus could also be driven by another board).

You'll not spot problems with those signals in a 9816 unless you have a DMA
controller board in one of the DIO slots, but...

-tony

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun 11 13:17:02 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 11:17:02 -0700
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
In-Reply-To: <CAHkUCCwZtaDiygFG-KpOHw4ddARbC96PKVf-Be38QkLnKGw_xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FED07607-8247-444A-B146-A57248713F85@gmail.com>
 <a54b36ab-676e-a0cc-377f-904f81a50cd2@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCywk3KmOa9_4aRz5R_YmQyV2t+Tnn8Rp8mohF9HSQgrdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e2942c34-f8e3-70cb-bee9-c10043dacee7@sydex.com>
 <0e0401d52036$8b968d00$a2c3a700$@gmail.com>
 <6f53e968-651d-234e-a495-422e2ce8acbb@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCwZtaDiygFG-KpOHw4ddARbC96PKVf-Be38QkLnKGw_xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8d6a0f6c-84f5-e746-b35b-9d2435612c9a@sydex.com>

On 6/11/19 10:54 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:

> I have just remembered something that I guess you realised some time
> back...
> 
> The 16L8 allows you to tri-state outputs under logic control (I think there's
> one AND term for the output control of each output). I suspect this is used
> in ths PAL, certainly for things like DMAR0 and DMARdy which go onto the
> backplane connector (and thus could also be driven by another board).

I mentioned in my blog entry that I had a way of detecting this by
driving the outputs through a series resistor and sensing the logic
level of the pin.

In other words, you've already labeled the pin as an output by
exhaustively running through input combinations.  What's needed is to
differentiate a "driven" high level from a tristated one.  By driving
the outputs low through a series resistance you can determine if an
output is high-impedance or not.

I explained that badly, but it does work.

--Chuck


From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 13:40:30 2019
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 15:40:30 -0300
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
In-Reply-To: <8d6a0f6c-84f5-e746-b35b-9d2435612c9a@sydex.com>
References: <FED07607-8247-444A-B146-A57248713F85@gmail.com>
 <a54b36ab-676e-a0cc-377f-904f81a50cd2@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCywk3KmOa9_4aRz5R_YmQyV2t+Tnn8Rp8mohF9HSQgrdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e2942c34-f8e3-70cb-bee9-c10043dacee7@sydex.com>
 <0e0401d52036$8b968d00$a2c3a700$@gmail.com>
 <6f53e968-651d-234e-a495-422e2ce8acbb@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCwZtaDiygFG-KpOHw4ddARbC96PKVf-Be38QkLnKGw_xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d6a0f6c-84f5-e746-b35b-9d2435612c9a@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <1b66b904-b9e7-f60b-d99a-08d2e34f42c3@gmail.com>


On 2019-06-11 3:17 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 6/11/19 10:54 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
>
>> I have just remembered something that I guess you realised some time
>> back...
>>
>> The 16L8 allows you to tri-state outputs under logic control (I think there's
>> one AND term for the output control of each output). I suspect this is used
>> in ths PAL, certainly for things like DMAR0 and DMARdy which go onto the
>> backplane connector (and thus could also be driven by another board).
> I mentioned in my blog entry that I had a way of detecting this by
> driving the outputs through a series resistor and sensing the logic
> level of the pin.
>
> In other words, you've already labeled the pin as an output by
> exhaustively running through input combinations.  What's needed is to
> differentiate a "driven" high level from a tristated one.  By driving
> the outputs low through a series resistance you can determine if an
> output is high-impedance or not.
>
> I explained that badly, but it does work.
>
> --Chuck
>
Well in this case I have Mr Duell's schematic to go by to determine what 
is input an what is output.? For the 16L8 tristate is an available 
output option that you would need to specify in PLD design and I believe 
can be selected individually for each output.? In the case of this HAL 
it would seem likely that pin 11 tristates all outputs but output 0 at 
least when pin 11 is low the output from all the rest is high but I did 
not test for tristate as it does not matter in this case since pin 11 is 
permanently tied high.

Paul.



From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun 11 14:00:33 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 12:00:33 -0700
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
In-Reply-To: <1b66b904-b9e7-f60b-d99a-08d2e34f42c3@gmail.com>
References: <FED07607-8247-444A-B146-A57248713F85@gmail.com>
 <a54b36ab-676e-a0cc-377f-904f81a50cd2@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCywk3KmOa9_4aRz5R_YmQyV2t+Tnn8Rp8mohF9HSQgrdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e2942c34-f8e3-70cb-bee9-c10043dacee7@sydex.com>
 <0e0401d52036$8b968d00$a2c3a700$@gmail.com>
 <6f53e968-651d-234e-a495-422e2ce8acbb@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCwZtaDiygFG-KpOHw4ddARbC96PKVf-Be38QkLnKGw_xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d6a0f6c-84f5-e746-b35b-9d2435612c9a@sydex.com>
 <1b66b904-b9e7-f60b-d99a-08d2e34f42c3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b77e2e6-6ddb-3fb2-058d-29dba86d9eee@sydex.com>

On 6/11/19 11:40 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:
>
> Well in this case I have Mr Duell's schematic to go by to determine what
> is input an what is output.? For the 16L8 tristate is an available
> output option that you would need to specify in PLD design and I believe
> can be selected individually for each output.? In the case of this HAL
> it would seem likely that pin 11 tristates all outputs but output 0 at
> least when pin 11 is low the output from all the rest is high but I did
> not test for tristate as it does not matter in this case since pin 11 is
> permanently tied high.

That's nice; but in my case, I was sent a couple of PALs to clone
without a hint of their origin.   So the PAL was essentially a black box
and the task was to come up with a box that behaved similarly.

--Chuck

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 11 15:46:37 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 20:46:37 +0000
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
In-Reply-To: <1070719353.1246219.1560275071630@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1070719353.1246219.1560275071630.ref@mail.yahoo.com>,
 <1070719353.1246219.1560275071630@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB56087B8A0FABED88048F4283A3ED0@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

I couldn't see remoting my self more from the design. The JEDIC file is specified, the fuses are numbered why do we need the added steps.
I was told the same thing, that there was no way other than to use a PAL compiler.
If you really want to confuse things, try using a PALASM or such to move from positive logic to negative logic.
Another use for the tristate is to make an OC output.
Dwight

________________________________
From: Brian L. Stuart <blstuart at bellsouth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 10:44 AM
To: Paul Berger; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; dwight
Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8

On Tue, 6/11/19, dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> When I needed to create a PAL from a schematic, I first made
> a schematic of what the PAL was suppose to do, using the
> same basic model of logic that the PAL provided. Once I was
> done, I took the PAL map from the TI book and made red dots
> on each of the connections I needed. I'd then go back

I thought I was the only one!  Back when I first used a PAL, I
also photocopied the page from the databook, marked up
the connections I wanted, and then asked my coworkers
how to get that programmed into the device.  It was pretty
annoying to learn I had to convert it to equations first.  It
seemed like a pointless extra step when the software was
just going to turn around and turn the equations back into
the matrix wiring I had just marked up.

BLS

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Jun 11 15:47:57 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 14:47:57 -0600
Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?
In-Reply-To: <3bb83d8d-41b6-4b77-a325-92e6ec902f16@www.fastmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>
 <920d2ad6-55bf-4a2a-82d4-dbb8eab63847@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAMTenCE4xoJSnKJ4ga8oDSTB1BBgtYO-99HZMDD4gBv2OrjgFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <3bb83d8d-41b6-4b77-a325-92e6ec902f16@www.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <ae26122c-c551-e773-a656-56c78e373966@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 6/11/2019 11:11 AM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2019, at 9:22 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 at 18:15, Seth Morabito via cctalk
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Oops! Clearly a boneheaded mistake on my part. Time to fix that ancient post of mine...
>>
>> Ancient? It was on HN yesterday!
>>
>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20137134
> 
> It's not my fault they found a blog post I made in 2012 yesterday! :^)

USE LESS BANNER ADS.
> -Seth
What I have seen a lot lately, is that you get a search hit, click on 
the link
and get a "We will display NOT this page for you because **** ". Is that
the same for you people out there?
Ben.





From derschjo at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 15:55:15 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 13:55:15 -0700
Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?
In-Reply-To: <ae26122c-c551-e773-a656-56c78e373966@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>
 <920d2ad6-55bf-4a2a-82d4-dbb8eab63847@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAMTenCE4xoJSnKJ4ga8oDSTB1BBgtYO-99HZMDD4gBv2OrjgFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <3bb83d8d-41b6-4b77-a325-92e6ec902f16@www.fastmail.com>
 <ae26122c-c551-e773-a656-56c78e373966@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLZs=A_O1GnfuTziktHDK7z8SZPtGCo35yDbhOePwtoCVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 1:48 PM ben via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 6/11/2019 11:11 AM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019, at 9:22 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> >> On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 at 18:15, Seth Morabito via cctalk
> >> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Oops! Clearly a boneheaded mistake on my part. Time to fix that
> ancient post of mine...
> >>
> >> Ancient? It was on HN yesterday!
> >>
> >> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20137134
> >
> > It's not my fault they found a blog post I made in 2012 yesterday! :^)
>
> USE LESS BANNER ADS.
> > -Seth
> What I have seen a lot lately, is that you get a search hit, click on
> the link
> and get a "We will display NOT this page for you because **** ". Is that
> the same for you people out there?
> Ben.
>
>
>
There are no banner ads on ycombinator, nor on Seth's site.  I suspect you
have malware somewhere in your system or on your network.

- Josh

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Jun 11 16:13:22 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 15:13:22 -0600
Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLZs=A_O1GnfuTziktHDK7z8SZPtGCo35yDbhOePwtoCVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>
 <920d2ad6-55bf-4a2a-82d4-dbb8eab63847@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAMTenCE4xoJSnKJ4ga8oDSTB1BBgtYO-99HZMDD4gBv2OrjgFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <3bb83d8d-41b6-4b77-a325-92e6ec902f16@www.fastmail.com>
 <ae26122c-c551-e773-a656-56c78e373966@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CADBZjLZs=A_O1GnfuTziktHDK7z8SZPtGCo35yDbhOePwtoCVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <687b9f01-136f-3b41-c78e-4f467a538885@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 6/11/2019 2:55 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:

> 
> There are no banner ads on ycombinator, nor on Seth's site.? I suspect 
> you have malware somewhere in your system or on your network.

As froghorn leghorn once said. "That was a Joke son" ...
> 
> - Josh

I'll look at that site later, as finding any kind of intersting page
is becoming harder and harder as web searching is getting very sloppy.
Ben.


From derschjo at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 16:18:32 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 14:18:32 -0700
Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?
In-Reply-To: <687b9f01-136f-3b41-c78e-4f467a538885@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>
 <920d2ad6-55bf-4a2a-82d4-dbb8eab63847@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAMTenCE4xoJSnKJ4ga8oDSTB1BBgtYO-99HZMDD4gBv2OrjgFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <3bb83d8d-41b6-4b77-a325-92e6ec902f16@www.fastmail.com>
 <ae26122c-c551-e773-a656-56c78e373966@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CADBZjLZs=A_O1GnfuTziktHDK7z8SZPtGCo35yDbhOePwtoCVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <687b9f01-136f-3b41-c78e-4f467a538885@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLaGRiwUFF1vQCh=LQdUK1stOhLtj2y9ket-RJ0CX05=hQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 2:13 PM ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:

> On 6/11/2019 2:55 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>
> >
> > There are no banner ads on ycombinator, nor on Seth's site.  I suspect
> > you have malware somewhere in your system or on your network.
>
> As froghorn leghorn once said. "That was a Joke son" ...
>

If you say so.

- Josh

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Jun 11 18:41:53 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 16:41:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?
In-Reply-To: <C4472C87-6E1B-40ED-8412-62FA92588590@platinum.net>
References: <CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>
 <920d2ad6-55bf-4a2a-82d4-dbb8eab63847@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAMTenCE4xoJSnKJ4ga8oDSTB1BBgtYO-99HZMDD4gBv2OrjgFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <3bb83d8d-41b6-4b77-a325-92e6ec902f16@www.fastmail.com>
 <C4472C87-6E1B-40ED-8412-62FA92588590@platinum.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906111634030.5516@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 11 Jun 2019, Ian McLaughlin via cctalk wrote:
> Almost as bad as desperately looking for a fix for something, and coming 
> across your own posting from 15 years ago with the solution :)

IFF your old post had a solution!  (rather than being an unresolved 
query)


A related anecdote (that must surely happen often to ARD, Chuck, Allison, 
and a few others), . . .
A friend of mine did hobbyist holography, with a ton of sand in a waterbed 
frame on stacks of tires, . . .
There used to be only one REAL professional photography supplier in the 
area, where you could get sheet film, glass plates, etc.
One time, she noticed an Eastman glass plate emulsion that she hadn't seen 
before, so she asked the staff about it.
"Well, I personally don't know anything about it, but I hear that we have 
a customer who knows EVERYTHING about that stuff, and we'll get them in 
touch with you!"
When she got home, there was a message on her answering machine, "Hi, this 
is George at Alpha Photo.  We have a customer who wants to know about a 
new Eastman glass plate emulsion.  Would you mind telling them what you 
know?"

Guess what?  YOU are the expert that they will put you in touch with.

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 18:47:37 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 19:47:37 -0400
Subject: TurboDOS for S-100, IMS or L/F Technologies
In-Reply-To: <1994260350.1498101.1560272129120@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1994260350.1498101.1560272129120.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1994260350.1498101.1560272129120@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuf9_5S5X9vEs3+4-2P20bSM8GMgtYh=Fu-kzmLLKZAvZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 12:55 PM Jonathan Haddox via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I'm restoring an IMS - L/F Technologies S-100 Bus computer.  I've got all
> the pieces except for the Operating System.  I'm hoping that someone here
> may have a disk stashed away.  From the literature I have read, I would
> need TurboDOS version 1.40a or 1.41c from IMS or L/F Technologies.  I've
> seen TurboDOS 1.3 versions out in the wild from IMS, but the 1.4 version
> was greatly enhanced and offered better compatibility with my specific
> hardware.  I'd be much obliged if anyone can help.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jonathan
> new_castle_j  at yahoo
>

Can you detail the associated hardware (drive controller, drive model, CPU,
etc.)

>

From web at loomcom.com  Tue Jun 11 19:50:54 2019
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 17:50:54 -0700
Subject: In search of an ancient IEEE-754 floating point test suite
Message-ID: <31ba55df-794a-49be-b29f-e4476778d985@www.fastmail.com>

One of the projects I've been working on recently is adding floating point accelerator emulation to the SIMH 3B2/400 emulator. I _think_ I've done reasonably well, in that the simulator passes all of the accelerator diagnostics that AT&T wrote for their own product, but frankly these tests are rather cursory and don't validate much.

I'd like to compile a set of IEEE-754 tests on the 3B2. Unfortunately, the only compiler I have ready access to on the 3B2 is AT&T's pre-ANSI C compiler, so not a lot of modern C is going to work.

Does anyone know of a period-appropriate set of IEEE-754 tests that could be compiled on SVR3?

-Seth
-- 
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA
  web at loomcom.com

From pieroandreini at vodafone.it  Tue Jun 11 15:13:20 2019
From: pieroandreini at vodafone.it (pieroandreini)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 22:13:20 +0200
Subject: HP9816 PAL16L8
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1560272401.4065.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20190611201538.3C1BB273B9@mx1.ezwind.net>

Many thanks to all those who are helping me!Inviato da smartphone Samsung Galaxy.
-------- Messaggio originale --------Da: cctech-request at classiccmp.org Data: 11/06/19  19:00  (GMT+01:00) A: cctech at classiccmp.org Oggetto: cctech Digest, Vol 57, Issue 11 Send cctech mailing list submissions to	cctech at classiccmp.orgTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit	http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctechor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to	cctech-request at classiccmp.orgYou can reach the person managing the list at	cctech-owner at classiccmp.orgWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specificthan "Re: Contents of cctech digest..."Today's Topics:?? 1. Re: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL????? graphics) running in MAME (Pontus Pihlgren)?? 2. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Liam Proven)?? 3. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Liam Proven)?? 4. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Peter Corlett)?? 5. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Peter Corlett)?? 6. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Liam Proven)?? 7. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Liam Proven)?? 8. Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (alan at alanlee.org) (dwight)?? 9. Old soaftware and documentation (Electronics Plus)? 10. June 22 (Electronics Plus)? 11. Re: Old soaftware and documentation (Grant Taylor)? 12. Re: Old soaftware and documentation (Noel Chiappa)? 13. RE: Old soaftware and documentation (Electronics Plus)? 14. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Tomasz Rola)? 15. Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (Paul Berger)? 16. Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (Tony Duell)? 17. Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (Chuck Guzis)? 18. RE: HP9816 PAL16L8 (Paul Birkel)? 19. What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick? (Liam Proven)? 20. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Liam Proven)? 21. RE: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick? (Paul Birkel)? 22. Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (Paul Berger)? 23. Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (Paul Berger)----------------------------------------------------------------------Message: 1Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 11:56:30 +0200From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE>To: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>, "General Discussion: On-Topic and	Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL	graphics) running in MAMEMessage-ID: <20190610095630.2a3dnxf6dvc75xsb at Update.UU.SE>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-asciiThat is impressive! Is it close to real time we are seeing?/POn Thu, Jun 06, 2019 at 10:38:35AM -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:> pretty cool..> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6E0_qgfGGQ> ------------------------------Message: 2Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:57:34 +0200From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.Message-ID:	<CAMTenCF_GC6fxT4A0GHaMNBhWfK3J48=j1Lueoqko+T9tc6QFQ at mail.gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Sun, 9 Jun 2019 at 13:45, Stefan Skoglund <stefan.skoglund at agj.net> wrote:>> The economist wrote about this (> https://www.economist.com/briefing/2019/06/08/how-the-pursuit-of-leisure-drives-internet-use> )>> The current situation is this:> it is much more important for Apple and Samsung to sell overpriced> things to consumers which then basically only will be used to play> games, look on sport games and youtube films.Fair point.And in the tropics, it is more important than ever that a device issealed, waterproof, has no moving parts, etc. -- to keep it tough.Cheap & replaceable are more important than convenient and repairable.> What you used the Psion for will only sell about 4 percent of apples> volumes last year....> The screen of the machine i write this on, stands on a sun sparcstation> 10.> If i had that machine running well i would be as productive writing> reports on that one as on the asus tower which i now uses.I know what you mean, and I agree.I just wish a few more companies thought like Planet Computers andtried to make devices for rich niches, rather than the cheap massmarket...https://planetcom.squarespace.com/-- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053------------------------------Message: 3Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:58:53 +0200From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.Message-ID:	<CAMTenCH2LPMGq62_GHJOS0G-TFCZzc9JGYL_Wpv4XartfN9xGw at mail.gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Sun, 9 Jun 2019 at 13:49, Stefan Skoglund <stefan.skoglund at agj.net> wrote:>> I also hate my samsung a5 mobile - the stupid thing> doesnt have something which the two ericsson mobiles i used before (and> a nokia and i believe a samsung to) had.>> Namely a small led which was on all the time. A great thing when> you need to look for the damn things while it is dark.>> For example in the car or in bed or out in the nature inside a tent.>> Stupid little things...>> that little led usually changed colour when the battery became low.Agreed again. My old Mac mini had a power LED. It pulsed softly when asleep.The iMac that has replaced it has nothing. I can't tell if it is on,off, asleep or what.The cost saving of this change must be too small to measure. :-)-- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053------------------------------Message: 4Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:44:50 +0200From: Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.Message-ID: <20190610134450.qd7dmsed67fyyfsc at mooli.org.uk>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-asciiOn Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 01:57:34PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:[...]> I just wish a few more companies thought like Planet Computers and tried to> make devices for rich niches, rather than the cheap mass market...> https://planetcom.squarespace.com/So long as said companies don't just make yet another Android device based on acheap-and-nasty Mediatek SOC which requires proprietary Android-only drivers towork well, and then make misleading claims about Linux support.The Gemini's keyboard was very much a take-my-money-now feature when I saw it,but since it was being crowdfunded on Indiegogo, the platform for stuff toododgy for Kickstarter, I decided to exercise caution and wait to see what, ifanything, would be delivered. When they finally admitted it had a Mediatekchipset, I lost all interest. Been there, done that, never again.Planet are right now crowdfunding their new "Cosmo Communicator". They haveapparently learned nothing as it also has a Mediatek chipset, and yet theycontinue to disingenuously claim Linux support. I shall be giving this one awide berth too.Third time lucky, eh? Maybe they should start talking to the Raspberry Pipeople who actually know a thing or two about getting Linux working well onmobile chipsets.------------------------------Message: 5Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:51:11 +0200From: Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.Message-ID: <20190610135111.abvyum4mdwmn345k at mooli.org.uk>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 01:58:53PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:[...]> Agreed again. My old Mac mini had a power LED. It pulsed softly when asleep.> The iMac that has replaced it has nothing. I can't tell if it is on,> off, asleep or what.> The cost saving of this change must be too small to measure. :-)Adding pockets ruins the look, or something.They're not even charging "only" ?54.99 for a Thunderbolt-to-power-LED dongle,so this particular essential component wasn't removed for the usual reason.------------------------------Message: 6Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:44:44 +0200From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.Message-ID:	<CAMTenCGMzCwPjO9mwdkH4HRaypZpk6HdpbqO=TfmSBMk8Yte5g at mail.gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 at 15:45, Peter Corlett via cctalk<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:>> So long as said companies don't just make yet another Android device based on a> cheap-and-nasty Mediatek SOC which requires proprietary Android-only drivers to> work well, and then make misleading claims about Linux support.Don't all phone chipsets require Android drivers?And on that point, so does the RasPi.> The Gemini's keyboard was very much a take-my-money-now feature when I saw it,> but since it was being crowdfunded on Indiegogo, the platform for stuff too> dodgy for Kickstarter, I decided to exercise caution and wait to see what, if> anything, would be delivered. When they finally admitted it had a Mediatek> chipset, I lost all interest. Been there, done that, never again.You pays your money, etc. I'm quite happy with mine. I don't use it asa phone but for taking notes at conferences and events, for instance,it's _superb_.> Planet are right now crowdfunding their new "Cosmo Communicator". They have> apparently learned nothing as it also has a Mediatek chipset, and yet they> continue to disingenuously claim Linux support. I shall be giving this one a> wide berth too.On their sales volumes, I think they have to go with whatever is cheapand customisable on the Chinese market.One of the sad things about the ARM market is that there is noindustry standard, no baseline to aim for. There isn't even standardfirmware. Lots of devices don't have firmware at all, so every Linuxport is a bare-metal thing, starting with hardware initialisation. Ayear or 2 after it goes off the market, it's junk, as nothing willsupport it any more.ARM64 is trying to impose a requirement for UEFI, I believe, but [a]the legions of cheap kit makers don't care and just ignore it, and [b]UEFI is horrible.> Third time lucky, eh? Maybe they should start talking to the Raspberry Pi> people who actually know a thing or two about getting Linux working well on> mobile chipsets.Via big binary BLOBs, yeah, and a weird bootloader that means that theGPU initialises the system and (I hear) retains some degree of controlover interrupts, making it more or less impossible to run a properhypervisor on the things.-- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053------------------------------Message: 7Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:49:04 +0200From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.Message-ID:	<CAMTenCEPXvKPj6cBejUHsXGcjg0EMf5cFpDLz0OR7HsPMRy8VA at mail.gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 at 15:51, Peter Corlett via cctalk<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:>> Adding pockets ruins the look, or something.Yup.They're going beyond the realm of their own previous products intosuch severe minimalism it's becoming inconvenient.I want an LED to tell me my charge/power status, message status, etc.,thank you. I want a physical home button. I want a physical headphonesocket. If you want me to buy a ?1000 tablet, then I want multipleports, USB and Lightning or whatever. I want to connect a keyboard andheadphones and charge it all at once, thanks.Since I can't have that, I bought a cheapo Chinese tablet instead, forless than the cost of a second-hand iPad of similar spec. It does thejob.It is very pleasant that I have come to a point in my life where I canafford nice toys like a (second-hand) Retina iMac and what was still ahigh-end iPhone when I got it (also 2nd hand).However, so many features are disappearing from the newer models thatI am not sure they're going to keep me for long...-- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053------------------------------Message: 8Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:46:38 +0000From: dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com>To: Piero Andreini <pieroandreini at vodafone.it>, "General Discussion:	On-Topic Posts" <cctech at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (alan at alanlee.org)Message-ID:	<BYAPR01MB560809829422DA4BE9D9348CA3130 at BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>	Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"Again, is it just an address decoder or something more complicated. One can often determine the logic by looking at a schematic and knowing what it needs to do.Dwight________________________________From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Piero Andreini via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 7:58 AMTo: cctech at classiccmp.orgSubject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (alan at alanlee.org)> L series are combinatorial only.? You (or someone who has a working one)> should be able to figure out a logic map by either running through all> the input permutation or putting it in a reader that will do the same> (vs reading the fuse data).>> -Alan>> Good luck.unfortunately I don't have a working PAL, that's why I'm looking for the jedec file------------------------------Message: 9Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 14:04:23 -0500From: "Electronics Plus" <sales at elecplus.com>To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Old soaftware and documentationMessage-ID: <04ac01d51fbf$516bc6d0$f4435470$@com>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"I have a large qty to donate to a vintage computer group. I do not want toship. Someone in Austin or San Antonio area want to come and get it?I would like it gone before this Saturday. Cindy CroxtonElectronics Plus1613 Water StreetKerrville, TX 78028830-370-3239 cellsales at elecplus.com ---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.https://www.avast.com/antivirus------------------------------Message: 10Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 14:05:56 -0500From: "Electronics Plus" <sales at elecplus.com>To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: June 22Message-ID: <04b101d51fbf$88a30fa0$99e92ee0$@com>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"My warehouse will be open on Sat, Jun 22, from 10-3 for anyone that wants tocome scrounge. I am 1 hour from San Antonio, or 2.5 hours from Austin, or4-5 hours from Houston or Dallas (in decent traffic and weather). Cindy CroxtonElectronics Plus1613 Water StreetKerrville, TX 78028830-370-3239 cellsales at elecplus.com ---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.https://www.avast.com/antivirus------------------------------Message: 11Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:07:40 -0600From: Grant Taylor <cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net>To: cctalk at classiccmp.orgSubject: Re: Old soaftware and documentationMessage-ID:	<6bb191f9-baff-3bb6-6811-1b38f62912ee at spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowedOn 6/10/19 1:04 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote:> I have a large qty to donate to a vintage computer group. I do not want to> ship. Someone in Austin or San Antonio area want to come and get it?> > I would like it gone before this Saturday.How large is large?? Are we talking fills a desk top?? A Gaylord?? More?Please take pictures of it.? Hopefully the titles / versions can be identified.I'll socialize it with people in my community.-- Grant. . . .unix || die------------------------------Message: 12Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:15:30 -0400 (EDT)From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)To: cctalk at classiccmp.orgCc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.eduSubject: Re: Old soaftware and documentationMessage-ID: <20190610201530.481DF18C08E at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>??? > From: Cindy Croxton??? > I have a large qty to donateRoughly what does it go to - old PC's; Windows boxes; etc?	Noel------------------------------Message: 13Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:33:55 -0500From: "Electronics Plus" <sales at elecplus.com>To: "'Noel Chiappa'" <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, "'General Discussion:	On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: RE: Old soaftware and documentationMessage-ID: <052f01d51fcb$d3a13fc0$7ae3bf40$@com>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"??? > From: Cindy Croxton??? > I have a large qty to donateRoughly what does it go to - old PC's; Windows boxes; etc?	NoelDOS/early Windows/Tandy for the most partA small amount of SCO and other odd Unix type stuff.Cindy---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.https://www.avast.com/antivirus------------------------------Message: 14Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 22:57:39 +0200From: Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl>To: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.Message-ID: <20190610205739.GB20570 at tau1.ceti.pl>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-asciiOn Thu, Jun 06, 2019 at 01:43:40PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:> On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 at 20:06, Fred Cisin via cctalk> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:> >> > I don't think that my Fossil (Palm-OS WATCH) does IRDA.> > I should find somebody who will pay me money for such a piece of> > crap^H^H^H^H NEAT technology.> [...]> > Now? No keyboards at all.> > No, I am not happy about that, either.> > I could read the screens of my Psion and Nokia in bright sunshine.> American-design ones are slowly edging back towards that, but it's> still difficult. Daylight-readable screens have disappeared from the> market.> > I'm not happy about that, either.> > My Psions and Nokias had bulletproof OSes that lasted for years> without a single update, and yes, they were Internet-connected by the> last few generations. They ran in a few tens of megabytes of> nonvolatile storage.> > Now, my tablet and iPhone and Android phones need *at least* 3 or 4> apps updating every day. If I don't use one for a few weeks, it's just> like Windows -- I have to do half an hour of updates before I can use> it. The OS needs to be replaced every month or two to fix all the> flaws in it, and that's a gigabyte or so of storage.> > I am *furious* about this.I share the sentiment and I guess I could give similar description(yours was very interesting, BTW).? If I had a privilege to ownPsion. But, when I went on for shopping, Psion was already bowing outof the PDA market. So I bought Compaq iPAQ 3630, installed FamiliarLinux on it and hoped there would be a future when PDAs can bebought. Hoho, I was so wrong. But while researching, I could on oneocassion tap a bit on this excellent Psion 5mx keyboard in a shop. Ithink about this keyboard to this very day.About displays: my ideal display was the one from iPAQ (they were alsoused in other handheld PDAs of the time). It was called transflectiveLCD. They are easily recognized, because the light can be permamentlyturned off. "Normal" LCD has a backlight, i.e. a layer ofleds/incandescents which shine through from the back of the displaytowards the user. Transflectives have special reflective layer in theback, and a diode on a side. The external light reflects and shinesback through the crystal layer. Sorry for laymanish description, but Ihope I have got it right.Anyway, such display looked best in full sun. The one in 3630 coulddisplay 4096 colors (with spectrum slightly bent towards pinky). LateriPAQ models could do 65k colors (again slightly bent, but this timemuch less visible). I used mine PDA as a proto ebook reader, lots ofhtml and pdb material read outdoors. The same kind of LCD was to befound in many phones.For whatever reason, morons decided the shiny LCD should be next bestthing. And transflective got lost. Just like this. Nada. Appears likethe very meaning of "mobile" changed during last twenty years - firstit meant "outdoors" and now it means "from one couch to another,indoors".> "The JesusPhone, I swear it is smiling at me: Come to me. come to me> and be saved. The luscious curves, the polished glissade of the icons> in the multi-touch interface - whoever designed that thing is an> intuitive illusionist, I realise fuzzily as my fingertip closes in on> the screen: That's at least a class five glamour."> (Charles Stross, /The Fuller Memorandum/)> > They're very shiny. They do a lot.> > But I had a better *phone* and a better *PDA* 20 years ago. The whole> is much less than the sum of its parts.Twenty years ago people using such tech were easily falling into"elite users" of some kind. Either because of earnings or because theyhad nontrivial needs and were decided to satisfy them - and themachines reflected this. Not so with todays users, and again, machinesreflect this.I am rather baffled whenever I read Psion had milion users and yetthis was not enough for them. Plenty of people would considerthemselves lucky if their books, cars or games were bought by thismany. The attitude of Psion managers is totally disgusting for me,unless I had not taken something into account.Perhaps niche technical products should be sold by those whounderstand niche markets. I imagine that if I came to manager of nicherecording label and suggested he should get rid of musicians and startrecording some generic crap outsourced from other side of the world to"reduce costs" I guess I would fly out the window with his boot in myarse. In contrast, I imagine that coming with similar proposition tomanager of huge (so called) tech firm I would get a bl**job and someof his shares. But maybe I am romantic.-- Regards,Tomasz Rola--** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.????? **** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home??? **** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...????? ****???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? **** Tomasz Rola????????? mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com???????????? **------------------------------Message: 15Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 20:23:15 -0300From: Paul Berger <phb.hfx at gmail.com>To: Piero Andreini via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID: <a54b36ab-676e-a0cc-377f-904f81a50cd2 at gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowedOn 2019-06-08 7:14 a.m., Piero Andreini via cctalk wrote:> desperately looking for jedec file of PAL 16L8 position U69 part # 1820-2991I pulled the CPU board out of my HP9816 and was happy to see that the component in question is in a socket however there is a problem.? The component in mine is a HAL16L8 note the "H" I found a datasheet and apparently in the early days of PALs at MMI you could do your development using PALs and then send the equations to MMI and they would produce a mask programmed semi custom chip with the same logic.? The problem with this is it does not have a program ROM like a traditional PAL so you cannot extract a valid JEDEC from it, I confirmed this by dumping it as a PAL16L8 and then decompiling the JED file to extract the equations and they are junk, even just browsing the RAW JED looked suspect.We can hope that it is all combinational logic and I can run trough all combinations of inputs and capture the output and we can develop equations that way as long as they did not do anything like use feedback to create registers as one person suggested could be done.Paul.------------------------------Message: 16Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 04:44:31 +0100From: Tony Duell <ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com>To: Paul Berger <phb.hfx at gmail.com>,? "General Discussion: On-Topic	and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID:	<CAHkUCCywk3KmOa9_4aRz5R_YmQyV2t+Tnn8Rp8mohF9HSQgrdQ at mail.gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 12:23 AM Paul Berger via cctalk<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:>>> On 2019-06-08 7:14 a.m., Piero Andreini via cctalk wrote:> > desperately looking for jedec file of PAL 16L8 position U69 part # 1820-2991> We can hope that it is all combinational logic and I can run trough all> combinations of inputs and capture the output and we can develop> equations that way as long as they did not do anything like use feedback> to create registers as one person suggested could be done.You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :For each combination of inputs :?? Read the outputs???? Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)???? Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they havechanged then there's a sequential function on that input???? Check the next input? Check the next combination of inputsIt is my guess that the logic in this PAL is much the same as the DMA logic,etc (but cut down to only support DMA channel 0) of the HP98624 HPIB card.This board uses only TTL, no PAL, so you might be able to work out suitableequations from that.-tony------------------------------Message: 17Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 21:19:09 -0700From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>To: Tony Duell via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID: <e2942c34-f8e3-70cb-bee9-c10043dacee7 at sydex.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:> > You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :> > For each combination of inputs :>??? Read the outputs>????? Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)>????? Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they have> changed then there's a sequential function on that input>????? Check the next input>?? Check the next combination of inputsFor purely combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over atvcfed.org; I did the work to clone a few PALs some years ago anddocumented the process.FWIW, the setup to do this was a few TTL ICs connected to the parallelport of a PC.?? Nowadays, I'd probably do the same with an inexpensiveMCU--the programmable nature of MCU pins lends a certain amount offlexibility to the process.Basically, you separate the inputs from the outputs and then run allcombinations of the inputs, observing the outputs.?? If the tristatefeature is used on outputs, there's a way to discover the differencebetween a tristated pin and a genuine input.There are a number of tools to perform reduction on the results, such asLogic Friday.?? After that, you're left with a bunch of logic equationsthat can be fed into a PAL/GAL assembler and programmed.--Chuck------------------------------Message: 18Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 05:17:50 -0400From: "Paul Birkel" <pbirkel at gmail.com>To: "'Chuck Guzis'" <cclist at sydex.com>, "'General Discussion: On-Topic	and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: RE: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID: <0e0401d52036$8b968d00$a2c3a700$@gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="UTF-8">-----Original Message----->From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 12:19 AM>To: Tony Duell via cctalk>Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8>>On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:>>> You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :>> >> For each combination of inputs :>>??? Read the outputs>>????? Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)>>????? Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they have>> changed then there's a sequential function on that input>>????? Check the next input>>?? Check the next combination of inputs>>For purely combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over at>vcfed.org; I did the work to clone a few PALs some years ago and>documented the process.http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?330-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-13 http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?329-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-12-The-Trantor-T130B-memory-PAL http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?328-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-11 http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?327-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-10 http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?326-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-9 http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?325-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-8 http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?321-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-7) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?320-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-6) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?319-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-5) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?318-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-4) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?316-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-3) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?315-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-2) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?314-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-1) A nice read.? When does the article/book get self-published :->?-----paul------------------------------Message: 19Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 13:05:45 +0200From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?Message-ID:	<CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ at mail.gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"Found on Hackernews but by our very own Seth Morabito...?This is what makes a PDP-11/35 or PDP-11/40 tick. It turns out to be441 ICs. Impressive!?https://loomcom.com/blog/0044_what_makes_a_pdp_11_35_tick.html-- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053------------------------------Message: 20Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 13:10:26 +0200From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.Message-ID:	<CAMTenCFC2QaR2+3c20CXnioY3-aMxVbJKNkPrxCKhs9vDFRfMA at mail.gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 at 22:57, Tomasz Rola via cctalk<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:>> I share the sentiment and I guess I could give similar description> (yours was very interesting, BTW).Thank you!> If I had a privilege to own> Psion. But, when I went on for shopping, Psion was already bowing out> of the PDA market. So I bought Compaq iPAQ 3630, installed Familiar> Linux on it and hoped there would be a future when PDAs can be> bought. Hoho, I was so wrong. But while researching, I could on one> ocassion tap a bit on this excellent Psion 5mx keyboard in a shop. I> think about this keyboard to this very day.Nothing ever was better and fitted in your pocket. *Nothing*.> About displays: my ideal display was the one from iPAQ (they were also> used in other handheld PDAs of the time). It was called transflective> LCD. They are easily recognized, because the light can be permamently> turned off. "Normal" LCD has a backlight, i.e. a layer of> leds/incandescents which shine through from the back of the display> towards the user. Transflectives have special reflective layer in the> back, and a diode on a side. The external light reflects and shines> back through the crystal layer. Sorry for laymanish description, but I> hope I have got it right.>> Anyway, such display looked best in full sun. The one in 3630 could> display 4096 colors (with spectrum slightly bent towards pinky). Later> iPAQ models could do 65k colors (again slightly bent, but this time> much less visible). I used mine PDA as a proto ebook reader, lots of> html and pdb material read outdoors. The same kind of LCD was to be> found in many phones.Fascinating. I did not know transreflective LCDs were in PDAs. I onlyknew of them from the One Laptop Per Child project. There was anattempt to "productize" them as Pixel Qi but it died:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Qi> For whatever reason, morons decided the shiny LCD should be next best> thing. And transflective got lost. Just like this. Nada. Appears like> the very meaning of "mobile" changed during last twenty years - first> it meant "outdoors" and now it means "from one couch to another,> indoors".A tragic loss for all of us. Triple-layer transmissive LCDs are aterrible bodge of a technology, and it is only because they are so badthat things like OLED look like good alternatives.But since it is all that anyone knows now, we think they are great.> Twenty years ago people using such tech were easily falling into> "elite users" of some kind. Either because of earnings or because they> had nontrivial needs and were decided to satisfy them - and the> machines reflected this. Not so with todays users, and again, machines> reflect this.Yes, true.> I am rather baffled whenever I read Psion had milion users and yet> this was not enough for them. Plenty of people would consider> themselves lucky if their books, cars or games were bought by this> many. The attitude of Psion managers is totally disgusting for me,> unless I had not taken something into account.Agreed.This is something? Planet Computers understands and I hope that it continues to.> Perhaps niche technical products should be sold by those who> understand niche markets. I imagine that if I came to manager of niche> recording label and suggested he should get rid of musicians and start> recording some generic crap outsourced from other side of the world to> "reduce costs" I guess I would fly out the window with his boot in my> arse. In contrast, I imagine that coming with similar proposition to> manager of huge (so called) tech firm I would get a bl**job and some> of his shares. But maybe I am romantic.:-D Excellent comparison!-- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053------------------------------Message: 21Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 07:33:23 -0400From: "Paul Birkel" <pbirkel at gmail.com>To: "'Liam Proven'" <lproven at gmail.com>, "'General Discussion:	On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: RE: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?Message-ID: <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="UTF-8">-----Original Message----->From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven via cctalk>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 7:06 AM>To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts>Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?>>Found on Hackernews but by our very own Seth Morabito...>>?>This is what makes a PDP-11/35 or PDP-11/40 tick. It turns out to be>441 ICs. Impressive!>?>>https://loomcom.com/blog/0044_what_makes_a_pdp_11_35_tick.html>>-- >Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenI wonder what the unlisted 20 ICs are for, and what they are?List totals 221; claim is 441 ...-----paul------------------------------Message: 22Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 09:49:54 -0300From: Paul Berger <phb.hfx at gmail.com>To: cctalk at classiccmp.orgSubject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID: <6f53e968-651d-234e-a495-422e2ce8acbb at gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowedOn 2019-06-11 6:17 a.m., Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote:>> -----Original Message----->> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 12:19 AM>> To: Tony Duell via cctalk>> Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8>>>> On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:>>>>> You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :>>>>>> For each combination of inputs :>>>???? Read the outputs>>>?????? Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)>>>?????? Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they have>>> changed then there's a sequential function on that input>>>?????? Check the next input>>>??? Check the next combination of inputs>> For purely combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over at>> vcfed.org; I did the work to clone a few PALs some years ago and>> documented the process.> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?330-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-13> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?329-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-12-The-Trantor-T130B-memory-PAL> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?328-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-11> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?327-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-10> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?326-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-9> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?325-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-8> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?321-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-7)> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?320-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-6)> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?319-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-5)> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?318-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-4)> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?316-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-3)> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?315-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-2)> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?314-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-1)>> A nice read.? When does the article/book get self-published :->?>> -----> paul>The process documented above is essentially the process I started last night, but in my case I used a GPIO in my HP 9000-332 to cycle through the inputs and record the output.? It is very handy to have general purpose parallel I/O for purposes like this.? In this case the number of possible states is reduced as two of the inputs are permanently tied high.? I am well on my well to developing logic equations to feed into palasm to generate a new JEDEC file which I can then burn into a GAL and test to see if it is correct.Paul.------------------------------Message: 23Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 09:54:48 -0300From: Paul Berger <phb.hfx at gmail.com>To: cctalk at classiccmp.orgSubject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID: <404e283e-1b9f-dff5-8d1a-d00fe6a886bb at gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowedOn 2019-06-11 1:19 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:> On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:>>> You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :>>>> For each combination of inputs :>>???? Read the outputs>>?????? Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)>>?????? Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they have>> changed then there's a sequential function on that input>>?????? Check the next input>>??? Check the next combination of inputs> For purely combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over at> vcfed.org; I did the work to clone a few PALs some years ago and> documented the process.>> FWIW, the setup to do this was a few TTL ICs connected to the parallel> port of a PC.?? Nowadays, I'd probably do the same with an inexpensive> MCU--the programmable nature of MCU pins lends a certain amount of> flexibility to the process.>> Basically, you separate the inputs from the outputs and then run all> combinations of the inputs, observing the outputs.?? If the tristate> feature is used on outputs, there's a way to discover the difference> between a tristated pin and a genuine input.>> There are a number of tools to perform reduction on the results, such as> Logic Friday.?? After that, you're left with a bunch of logic equations> that can be fed into a PAL/GAL assembler and programmed.>> --ChuckOld computer work too, I used a GPIO in a HP 9000-332.? Years ago I also created general purpose I/O ports for a PC using 6821 chips since they are way more flexible that the Intel? 8255, but the HP 9000 coupled with RMB makes for a great environment to bang out quick programs to do things like this.Paul.End of cctech Digest, Vol 57, Issue 11**************************************

From emu at e-bbes.com  Wed Jun 12 02:55:06 2019
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 03:55:06 -0400
Subject: In search of an ancient IEEE-754 floating point test suite
In-Reply-To: <31ba55df-794a-49be-b29f-e4476778d985@www.fastmail.com>
References: <31ba55df-794a-49be-b29f-e4476778d985@www.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <4429c804-bb43-b1a7-7255-e90f50eec3d4@e-bbes.com>

On 2019-06-11 20:50, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote:
> One of the projects I've been working on recently is adding floating point accelerator emulation to the SIMH 3B2/400 emulator. I _think_ I've done reasonably well, in that the simulator passes all of the accelerator diagnostics that AT&T wrote for their own product, but frankly these tests are rather cursory and don't validate much.
> 
> I'd like to compile a set of IEEE-754 tests on the 3B2. Unfortunately, the only compiler I have ready access to on the 3B2 is AT&T's pre-ANSI C compiler, so not a lot of modern C is going to work.
> 
> Does anyone know of a period-appropriate set of IEEE-754 tests that could be compiled on SVR3?
> 

http://www.jhauser.us/arithmetic/SoftFloat.html

?

From kspt.tor at gmail.com  Wed Jun 12 03:06:15 2019
From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 10:06:15 +0200
Subject: In search of an ancient IEEE-754 floating point test suite
In-Reply-To: <4429c804-bb43-b1a7-7255-e90f50eec3d4@e-bbes.com>
References: <31ba55df-794a-49be-b29f-e4476778d985@www.fastmail.com>
 <4429c804-bb43-b1a7-7255-e90f50eec3d4@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <CAL1Jhhy2sVZ+0bk34TpmfdrYb45upjJLLps6xkvaECN+0+Cfvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 09:55, emanuel stiebler via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On 2019-06-11 20:50, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote:
[..]
> > I'd like to compile a set of IEEE-754 tests on the 3B2. Unfortunately, the only compiler I have ready access to on the 3B2 is AT&T's pre-ANSI C compiler, so not a lot of modern C is going to work.
> >
> > Does anyone know of a period-appropriate set of IEEE-754 tests that could be compiled on SVR3?
> >
>
> http://www.jhauser.us/arithmetic/SoftFloat.html

I took a quick look - the source is written in ANSI C (including the
oldest versions there), so that looks like it won't work for Seth.

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun 12 04:21:31 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 11:21:31 +0200
Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?
In-Reply-To: <687b9f01-136f-3b41-c78e-4f467a538885@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>
 <920d2ad6-55bf-4a2a-82d4-dbb8eab63847@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAMTenCE4xoJSnKJ4ga8oDSTB1BBgtYO-99HZMDD4gBv2OrjgFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <3bb83d8d-41b6-4b77-a325-92e6ec902f16@www.fastmail.com>
 <ae26122c-c551-e773-a656-56c78e373966@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CADBZjLZs=A_O1GnfuTziktHDK7z8SZPtGCo35yDbhOePwtoCVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <687b9f01-136f-3b41-c78e-4f467a538885@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGDzG51GyEzbBnXsLAoTkciEv8zNqNt=ezAf9FtDMU5kA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 at 23:23, ben via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> As froghorn leghorn once said. "That was a Joke son" ...

Foghorn. Because of his loud voice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foghorn_Leghorn

A foghorn is a big loud, well, horn...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foghorn

And a Leghorn is a kind of chicken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leghorn_chicken

Leghorn chickens are from Livorno in Italy which is apparently
anglicised as "Leghorn", at which point I run out of explanations.

Gotta say, though, Ben, it didn't _look_ like a joke...

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun 12 04:27:12 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 11:27:12 +0200
Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906111634030.5516@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>
 <920d2ad6-55bf-4a2a-82d4-dbb8eab63847@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAMTenCE4xoJSnKJ4ga8oDSTB1BBgtYO-99HZMDD4gBv2OrjgFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <3bb83d8d-41b6-4b77-a325-92e6ec902f16@www.fastmail.com>
 <C4472C87-6E1B-40ED-8412-62FA92588590@platinum.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906111634030.5516@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCF0_8yF=yp4g5a3RM6drfAq9cqJxETv7UtnZaoCD0cYRQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 01:42, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> IFF your old post had a solution!  (rather than being an unresolved
> query)

https://xkcd.com/979/

There are a couple of things now where I know that if I try to find
sources, I'll find myself.

The details of how id Software's game /Quake/ killed Cyrix, the CPU
company, because Quake used a very clever method of interleaving FP
ops with integer ops that didn't use the same registers, allowing the
Pentium core to essentially run them at once. The Cyrix 6x86 core was
quicker -- I bought one myself, what more can I say -- but it couldn't
interleave FP and int ops like that, so it ran Quake like a dog.

And as Quake was *the* most demanding game around in 1996 or so, and
had a super convenient built-in "timedemo" feature, all the magazine's
benchmarks used Quake. So 6x86s got hammered, even though on literally
*ALL* OTHER X86-32 CODE THEY WERE QUICKER, they got bad reviews, and
Cyrix ended up getting acquired by Via.

Or the problems with AMD fglrx on a Toshiba Satellite Pro P300A.
That'll be me, too.

The weirdest one, though, was when I was given the honour (?) of
moderating my first item at the World SF Convention. It was a
collection of silly games. I'd never heard of one of them. I Googled
it. I got my own blog as the ? 2 or ? 3 hit.

_That_ was odd.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From bear at typewritten.org  Wed Jun 12 03:25:30 2019
From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 01:25:30 -0700
Subject: VAX ODT console fault
Message-ID: <8DF87F9E-4096-4289-B18F-4BD0E0187BE0@typewritten.org>

Folks;

I have a BA23 VAX of unknown provenance, which tonight I moved from the project backlog to the workbench. It comes up and passes selftest. But any key I press on the console terminal is repeated a couple dozen times (to the limit of the input line length?). This makes it impossible to interact with ODT.

Is this a normal sort of well-understood failure mode? In this session excerpt, the only thing I am sending is <BREAK> (giving me the normal chevron prompt), <ENTER> (giving me the repeated chevrons, sometimes with other characters in the pattern), ?, and h. I did not type any colons at the [XQA0] prompt, though I did try to backspace them. The behavior is the same if I remove all boards besides the KA655-B and 16 MB memory board.


KA655-B V5.3, VMB 2.7
Performing normal system tests.
40..39..38..37..36..35..34..33..32..31..30..29..28..27..26..25..
24..23..22..21..20..19..18..17..16..15..14..13..12..11..10..09..
08..07..06..05..04..03..
Tests completed.
Loading system software.
No default boot device has been specified.

Available devices.
-DUA0 (RA81)
-DUA1 (RA81)
-XQA0 (08-00-2B-19-A2-D7)
-XQB0 (08-00-2B-0D-83-C0)

Device? [XQA0]: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : \ \\
?26 VAL TOO LRG
Device? [XQA0]:

(BOOT/R5:0 XQA0)



  2..
-XQA0
?4B CTRLERR, XQA0
?06 HLT INST
        PC = 00000C1A
Failure.
>>>A0
?22 ILL CMD
>>>>>A>>>>A>>>>A>>>>A>>>>A>>>>A>>>>A>>>>A>>>>A>>>>A>>>>A>>>>A>>>>A>>>>A>>>>A>>>>A>>^C
>>>????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?22 ILL CMD
>>>
>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>
?22 ILL CMD
>>>
>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>
?22 ILL CMD
>>>
>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>^C
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
?22 ILL CMD
>>>
>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>^C
>>>hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
?22 ILL CMD
>>>
>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>?2>>>\>\\^C
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
?22 ILL CMD
>>>


ok
bear.

-- 
until further notice


From bear at typewritten.org  Wed Jun 12 03:41:56 2019
From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 01:41:56 -0700
Subject: VAX ODT console fault
In-Reply-To: <8DF87F9E-4096-4289-B18F-4BD0E0187BE0@typewritten.org>
References: <8DF87F9E-4096-4289-B18F-4BD0E0187BE0@typewritten.org>
Message-ID: <75D383CB-59F1-4752-9200-CFA307BD4738@typewritten.org>


On Jun 12, 2019, at 1:25 AM, r.stricklin wrote:

> I have a BA23 VAX of unknown provenance, which tonight I moved from the project backlog to the workbench. It comes up and passes selftest. But any key I press on the console terminal is repeated a couple dozen times (to the limit of the input line length?). This makes it impossible to interact with ODT.

If I install a spare KA630-A and 8 MB memory board, I get a similar fault where chevrons repeat to infinity. This seems to suggest it's a fault between the CPU and my terminal. Can this be the result of a bulkhead or other cable problem?

KA630-A.V1.3

Performing normal system tests.

  7..6..5..4..3..

Tests completed.


Loading system software.

  2..
?40 NOSUCHDEV
?06 HLT INST
    PC = 00000EE6
Failure.
>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
(etc.)



ok
bear.

-- 
until further notice


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed Jun 12 08:51:31 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 06:51:31 -0700
Subject: VAX ODT console fault
In-Reply-To: <75D383CB-59F1-4752-9200-CFA307BD4738@typewritten.org>
References: <8DF87F9E-4096-4289-B18F-4BD0E0187BE0@typewritten.org>
 <75D383CB-59F1-4752-9200-CFA307BD4738@typewritten.org>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKhcG0H-cD8dPHOLQtW6ZhkV3fyn03C2fxkNfx_rZ0DLg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 5:13 AM r.stricklin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>
> On Jun 12, 2019, at 1:25 AM, r.stricklin wrote:
>
> > I have a BA23 VAX of unknown provenance, which tonight I moved from the
> project backlog to the workbench. It comes up and passes selftest. But any
> key I press on the console terminal is repeated a couple dozen times (to
> the limit of the input line length?). This makes it impossible to interact
> with ODT.
>
> If I install a spare KA630-A and 8 MB memory board, I get a similar fault
> where chevrons repeat to infinity. This seems to suggest it's a fault
> between the CPU and my terminal. Can this be the result of a bulkhead or
> other cable problem?
>
> KA630-A.V1.3
>
> Performing normal system tests.
>
>   7..6..5..4..3..
>
> Tests completed.
>
>
> Loading system software.
>
>   2..
> ?40 NOSUCHDEV
> ?06 HLT INST
>     PC = 00000EE6
> Failure.
> >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> (etc.)
>
>
>
> ok
> bear.
>
> --
> until further notice
>


Is the NVRAM battery still in place in the console bulkhead panel? Those
always go bad and leak over time. Even it was removed some time ago my
first guess would be battery corrosion on the bulkhead panel is causing the
problem if it happens with multiple CPU boards.

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Jun 12 10:11:19 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 11:11:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?
Message-ID: <20190612151119.1628018C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Liam Proven

    > This is what makes a PDP-11/35 or PDP-11/40 tick. It turns out to be
    > 441 ICs.

I wondered if it was fair to list the DEC 23B00A2, etc that hold the ucode
as separate parts; they might have been a bunch of 256x4 PROMs, and the
separate part numbers were just for the different programming. (Whether
differently programmed PROMs count as 'different' parts for the purposes
of this table I leave aside.)

Looking at my M7232 card, though, I think they may be masked ROMs; the
only part number on them looks like a manufacturer applied one with the
DEC number.

Interestingly, about a third are MMI parts, and the rest are NS. I wonder
if neither manufacturer had enough capacity alone, or if DEC just wanted
multiple sourcing. (The parts appear to be basically the same, in terms of
speed, format, etc so it appears either could have provided any of them,
modulo the programme.)

	Noel

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Jun 12 10:22:09 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 10:22:09 -0500
Subject: VAX ODT console fault
In-Reply-To: <75D383CB-59F1-4752-9200-CFA307BD4738@typewritten.org>
References: <8DF87F9E-4096-4289-B18F-4BD0E0187BE0@typewritten.org>
 <75D383CB-59F1-4752-9200-CFA307BD4738@typewritten.org>
Message-ID: <5D0118A1.7030702@pico-systems.com>

On 06/12/2019 03:41 AM, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote:
> If I install a spare KA630-A and 8 MB memory board, I get a similar fault where chevrons repeat to infinity.
There are a couple possibilities.  If the baud rate is set 
wrong, the VAX could be replying to some gibberish at wrong 
baud rate, that causes the terminal to reply to that with 
something, and they endlessly jabber at each other.  Most 
terminals will send Xoff/Xon when a rapid burst of 
characters comes into the Rx port.  When misinterpreted by 
the VAX, that might cause it to send another burst of 
characters.  So, it could be entirely a software/setup issue.

Are you using a real terminal or a PC terminal program?  If 
a program, you might try a different one or try different 
comm settings.

As someone else mentioned, a leaking battery could have 
damaged traces or the baud selector switch on the panel 
interface module. Close inspection of that is strongly advised.

Jon



From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun 12 10:59:55 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 17:59:55 +0200
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>

Goes a bit over my head but may be of interest:

https://userpages.umbc.edu/~vijay/mashey.on.risc.html

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Jun 12 11:15:46 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 09:15:46 -0700
Subject: In search of an ancient IEEE-754 floating point test suite
In-Reply-To: <31ba55df-794a-49be-b29f-e4476778d985@www.fastmail.com>
References: <31ba55df-794a-49be-b29f-e4476778d985@www.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <ae5d9c06-5ddc-a9bd-81e6-92331d5ef74e@bitsavers.org>



On 6/11/19 5:50 PM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote:
> One of the projects I've been working on recently is adding floating point accelerator emulation to the SIMH 3B2/400 emulator. I _think_ I've done reasonably well, in that the simulator passes all of the accelerator diagnostics that AT&T wrote for their own product, but frankly these tests are rather cursory and don't validate much.
> 
> I'd like to compile a set of IEEE-754 tests on the 3B2. Unfortunately, the only compiler I have ready access to on the 3B2 is AT&T's pre-ANSI C compiler, so not a lot of modern C is going to work.
> 
> Does anyone know of a period-appropriate set of IEEE-754 tests that could be compiled on SVR3?
> 
> -Seth
> 

is there anything in
http://bitsavers.org/bits/ATT/SysV_r3.0_SV_Ver_Suite_Source_Tape_1987 ?


From web at loomcom.com  Wed Jun 12 11:28:32 2019
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 09:28:32 -0700
Subject: In search of an ancient IEEE-754 floating point test suite
In-Reply-To: <ae5d9c06-5ddc-a9bd-81e6-92331d5ef74e@bitsavers.org>
References: <31ba55df-794a-49be-b29f-e4476778d985@www.fastmail.com>
 <ae5d9c06-5ddc-a9bd-81e6-92331d5ef74e@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <f978b374-f764-4765-8c01-cd1cf9db7cd5@www.fastmail.com>



On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, at 9:15 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> is there anything in
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/ATT/SysV_r3.0_SV_Ver_Suite_Source_Tape_1987 ?

Wow wow wow, thanks for pointing this out (and for dumping the tape) Al. That's a great find, I wasn't aware it was on BitSavers!

I will definitely dig around in here. Moreover, I'll try to get it compiled on the 3B2 emulator in its entirety so I can attempt to pass verification. I say this a bit naively -- I don't know how much of SVVS is supposed to verify hardware directly, if at all.

-Seth
-- 
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA
  web at loomcom.com

From jesse at cypress-tech.com  Wed Jun 12 08:29:21 2019
From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (jesse cypress-tech.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 13:29:21 +0000
Subject: wanted - HP 1000 series boards - 12103L and 12016A
Message-ID: <9302888d-5c96-7a71-7098-4ce4a229e180@cypress-tech.com>

Hi, I'm looking for some older HP 1000 A class parts and wanted to see 
if anyone had them... below is what I need... If you have them, let me 
know.

12103L? 4MB Memory Board
12103-66002 4MB Memory Board
12103-69102 4MB Memory Board

12016A? SCSI Interface Board
12016-69102 SCSI Interface Board

Thanks
Jesse
Cypress Tech
jesse at cypress-tech.com


From jesse at cypress-tech.com  Wed Jun 12 09:13:55 2019
From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (jesse cypress-tech.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 14:13:55 +0000
Subject: List search option?
Message-ID: <91f4bc0c-fb5f-e813-571b-8a6aab652fa2@cypress-tech.com>

Is there a list search option on the archives? As in if I wanted to find 
a relevant thread for part number ABC123 I could search that somewhere?



From healyzh at avanthar.com  Wed Jun 12 09:32:40 2019
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 07:32:40 -0700
Subject: List search option?
In-Reply-To: <91f4bc0c-fb5f-e813-571b-8a6aab652fa2@cypress-tech.com>
References: <91f4bc0c-fb5f-e813-571b-8a6aab652fa2@cypress-tech.com>
Message-ID: <7A8FD2CF-B74D-4DEC-A318-66A7ED16833C@avanthar.com>


> On Jun 12, 2019, at 7:13 AM, jesse cypress-tech.com via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Is there a list search option on the archives? As in if I wanted to find 
> a relevant thread for part number ABC123 I could search that somewhere?

A better question might be, is there a complete archive of the list anywhere?  A couple of us might come close, but I know I have holes in my copy.

Zane




From phil at ultimate.com  Wed Jun 12 11:49:42 2019
From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 12:49:42 -0400
Subject: In search of an ancient IEEE-754 floating point test suite
In-Reply-To: <31ba55df-794a-49be-b29f-e4476778d985@www.fastmail.com>
References: <31ba55df-794a-49be-b29f-e4476778d985@www.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <201906121649.x5CGngc8016339@ultimate.com>

Have you looked at http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/software/ieee/ ?
Which says:

    "All C programs can also be compiled with old-style Kernighan and
    Ritchie C. However, inasmuch as I now have access to only one such
    old compiler, with more than 35 others supporting 1989 Standard C,
    I no longer attempt to retain K&R compatibility in new code.

If you run into trouble, perhaps Nelson has older versions stashed away?

From david at kdbarto.org  Wed Jun 12 11:55:29 2019
From: david at kdbarto.org (David)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 09:55:29 -0700
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <23FFF981-CC4A-4337-B0CE-EF96D01F32F3@kdbarto.org>

I found it most interesting, thanks for sending out the link.

	David

> On Jun 12, 2019, at 8:59 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Goes a bit over my head but may be of interest:
> 
> https://userpages.umbc.edu/~vijay/mashey.on.risc.html
> 
> -- 
> Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
> Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
> UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053


From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun 12 11:57:54 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 18:57:54 +0200
Subject: Computer Reset in Dallas has re-opened... temporarily
Message-ID: <CAMTenCG8TqsXidn6ARoG4zSyjW0G9JzaVAXZPVAMWii45mAEsQ@mail.gmail.com>

AIUI the owner is now in a nursing home.

Thanks to Justin Scott and a group of enthusiasts, rather than sending
all the stock to the scrappers, the store is occasionally re-opening
in an effort to sell as much as possible to collectors.

It's here:
https://www.computerresetdallas.com/contactus.htm

Address:
9525 Skillman St, Dallas, TX 75243

There's a FB group here -- an event will be posted whenever it's open:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/627459117730981/

(Last Saturday, next Saturday, for example.)

This is the GoFundMe for the owner:

https://www.gofundme.com/7uagmw-elderly-couple-in-need-of-help

There was a walkthrough on Youtube but it's gone. :-(

There's something for everyone. PDP, Vax, all manner of PCs including
PCJr, IBM portables, PS/2s, some complete and boxed, Amigas, NeXT,
TRS-80, terminals, all sorts.

The owner and his wife are now in sheltered accommodation and won't be
able to return. This is a last-ditch volunteer effort to stop all the
vast warehouse's contents being recycled and to make some money for
them to support them in their last years.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun 12 11:58:40 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 18:58:40 +0200
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <23FFF981-CC4A-4337-B0CE-EF96D01F32F3@kdbarto.org>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <23FFF981-CC4A-4337-B0CE-EF96D01F32F3@kdbarto.org>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHhxJgV+-zCZv3iWWpZOas1yOSP6V0UAs_e3O98z9v4jw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 18:55, David <david at kdbarto.org> wrote:
>
> I found it most interesting, thanks for sending out the link.

Oh good. I'm glad to hear that. One "thank you" makes it worth the while. :-)

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Jun 12 12:14:56 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 13:14:56 -0400
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8B4C35F7-7B9E-4C62-9011-2FCBE35D372C@comcast.net>



> On Jun 12, 2019, at 11:59 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Goes a bit over my head but may be of interest:
> 
> https://userpages.umbc.edu/~vijay/mashey.on.risc.html

Nice.  Still reading through it.

I like his definition of RISC.  It captures the key points.  Interesting that a substantial fraction of those criteria apply to the CDC 6000 architecture, which some of us like to call out as the first RISC architecture.  Sure, it has only 3 x 8 registers, but when registers are built up out of discrete transistors that's understandable.  The performance considerations that drive the RISC design approaches carry over quite nicely.

	paul



From web at loomcom.com  Wed Jun 12 12:17:46 2019
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 10:17:46 -0700
Subject: In search of an ancient IEEE-754 floating point test suite
In-Reply-To: <201906121649.x5CGngc8016339@ultimate.com>
References: <31ba55df-794a-49be-b29f-e4476778d985@www.fastmail.com>
 <201906121649.x5CGngc8016339@ultimate.com>
Message-ID: <8df802ac-1be8-4a3b-84ad-22829f46374e@www.fastmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, at 9:49 AM, Phil Budne wrote:
> Have you looked at http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/software/ieee/ ?
> Which says:
> 
>     "All C programs can also be compiled with old-style Kernighan and
>     Ritchie C. However, inasmuch as I now have access to only one such
>     old compiler, with more than 35 others supporting 1989 Standard C,
>     I no longer attempt to retain K&R compatibility in new code.
> 
> If you run into trouble, perhaps Nelson has older versions stashed away?


Great find, somehow I had missed this page in my searches. I'll add this to the growing arsenal, thank you!

-Seth
-- 
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA
  web at loomcom.com

From web at loomcom.com  Wed Jun 12 12:21:52 2019
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 10:21:52 -0700
Subject: In search of an ancient IEEE-754 floating point test suite
In-Reply-To: <f978b374-f764-4765-8c01-cd1cf9db7cd5@www.fastmail.com>
References: <31ba55df-794a-49be-b29f-e4476778d985@www.fastmail.com>
 <ae5d9c06-5ddc-a9bd-81e6-92331d5ef74e@bitsavers.org>
 <f978b374-f764-4765-8c01-cd1cf9db7cd5@www.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <0adb40d3-352b-48b2-b953-4a5bd14098c4@www.fastmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, at 9:28 AM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote:

> I will definitely dig around in here. Moreover, I'll try to get it 
> compiled on the 3B2 emulator in its entirety so I can attempt to pass 
> verification. 

Unfortunately there is no obvious way to build the SVVS sources from the tape. No makefiles or build scripts that I could find after searching a bit. There clearly is support for  build and install system of some kind, because there are lots of definition files scattered around that would instruct a build system how to compile, but the build system itself is missing and/or undocumented, and the interpolated variable values (such as %COMP% and %OPTS% and so forth) are not obvious. I suspect the official SVVS documentation would reveal all, but I can't find it. Drat!

Nevertheless, there ARE useful bits of code in there that I can extract and build by hand, so I'm still very happy to have it.

-Seth
-- 
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA
  web at loomcom.com

From new_castle_j at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 12 12:30:16 2019
From: new_castle_j at yahoo.com (Jonathan Haddox)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 17:30:16 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: TurboDOS for S-100, IMS or L/F Technologies
References: <634290515.482128.1560360616920.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <634290515.482128.1560360616920@mail.yahoo.com>

Sure, I will list out the hardware I'm planning on using.  
IMS A645 Z-80 Processor
IMS A631 serial/parallel I/O
IMS A930 Floppy controller
IMS A465 64K RAM
IMS 1100 Winchester Hard disk controller
IMS 862 User Processor (Z80)
IMS 1081 User Processor (186)
IMS 1120 Tape Controller
Earth Computers ARCnet board

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 6/11/19, Bill Degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: TurboDOS for S-100, IMS or L/F Technologies
 To: "Jonathan Haddox" <new_castle_j at yahoo.com>, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
 Date: Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 6:47 PM
 
 
 
 On Tue, Jun 11,
 2019, 12:55 PM Jonathan Haddox via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
 wrote:
 I'm
 restoring an IMS - L/F Technologies S-100 Bus computer.?
 I've got all the pieces except for the Operating
 System.? I'm hoping that someone here may have a disk
 stashed away.? From the literature I have read, I would
 need TurboDOS version 1.40a or 1.41c from IMS or L/F
 Technologies.? I've seen TurboDOS 1.3 versions out in
 the wild from IMS, but the 1.4 version was greatly enhanced
 and offered better compatibility with my specific
 hardware.? I'd be much obliged if anyone can help.
 
 
 
 Thanks,
 
 
 
 Jonathan
 
 new_castle_j? at yahoo
 
 Can you detail the associated
 hardware (drive controller, drive model, CPU,
 etc.)
 

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun 12 12:45:54 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 10:45:54 -0700
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <8B4C35F7-7B9E-4C62-9011-2FCBE35D372C@comcast.net>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8B4C35F7-7B9E-4C62-9011-2FCBE35D372C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3dc3ee54-b2ee-8556-48e0-53d6790338ec@sydex.com>

On 6/12/19 10:14 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Jun 12, 2019, at 11:59 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> Goes a bit over my head but may be of interest:
>>
>> https://userpages.umbc.edu/~vijay/mashey.on.risc.html
> 
> Nice.  Still reading through it.
> 
> I like his definition of RISC.  It captures the key points.  Interesting that a substantial fraction of those criteria apply to the CDC 6000 architecture, which some of us like to call out as the first RISC architecture.  Sure, it has only 3 x 8 registers, but when registers are built up out of discrete transistors that's understandable.  The performance considerations that drive the RISC design approaches carry over quite nicely.

There are fuzzy areas.   Consider the ETA 10--a very RISC scalar unit
that pretty much fulfills the criteria laid out, bolted onto a vector
unit (all memory-memory).

--Chuck


From aperry at snowmoose.com  Wed Jun 12 12:45:56 2019
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 10:45:56 -0700
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHhxJgV+-zCZv3iWWpZOas1yOSP6V0UAs_e3O98z9v4jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <23FFF981-CC4A-4337-B0CE-EF96D01F32F3@kdbarto.org>
 <CAMTenCHhxJgV+-zCZv3iWWpZOas1yOSP6V0UAs_e3O98z9v4jw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C88E6E3D-8509-4315-890D-858F31D51C24@snowmoose.com>

Ok. Here is a second thank you. An interesting read.

> On Jun 12, 2019, at 9:58 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 18:55, David <david at kdbarto.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I found it most interesting, thanks for sending out the link.
> 
> Oh good. I'm glad to hear that. One "thank you" makes it worth the while. :-)
> 
> -- 
> Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
> Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
> UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053


From shadoooo at gmail.com  Wed Jun 12 12:47:13 2019
From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 19:47:13 +0200
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 57, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsXq-prLM3xZr97h255mSVBxofFn8sD04UhrtUaSVEpEFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1560358800.18626.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <CAM4zSsXQVdU95CdR4UUUGWsfTXVqL0or++BNAx9P5V=wZWXnGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXq-prLM3xZr97h255mSVBxofFn8sD04UhrtUaSVEpEFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM4zSsVSjke1wSL3kQhrxobTjC68umtws1WqT8bnwWJ0C+oj1w@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
maybe there's a short between RXD and TXD, or possibly the GND is
unconnected...
This could cause an echo on the cable, and while the console is echoing
too, this give an infinite repetition, only ended by the limited console
buffer size...

Andrea

From marvin at west.net  Wed Jun 12 12:48:05 2019
From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 10:48:05 -0700
Subject: TurboDOS for S-100, IMS or L/F Technologies
Message-ID: <3b0baf40-cf4c-e2cd-78d5-4a296f63ea53@west.net>

If I read the archive properly, there is a copy of TurboDos 1.4x in Don 
Maslins archives on Bitsaver. The files included are:

Name         Format   Description
143GEN        ZIP     TD 1.43 DO/GEN/PAR files for ADC
143KERN       ZIP     TD 1.43 Kernel files
143REL        ZIP     TD 1.43 REL files for ADC
143MAC        ZIP     TD 1.43 MAC files for ADC
143DOC        ZIP     TD 1.43 FILES - incl ADC

Hope this helps!

Marvin


> I'm restoring an IMS - L/F Technologies S-100 Bus computer.  I've got all the pieces except for the Operating System.  I'm hoping that someone here may have a disk stashed away.  From the literature I have read, I would need TurboDOS version 1.40a or 1.41c from IMS or L/F Technologies.  I've seen TurboDOS 1.3 versions out in the wild from IMS, but the 1.4 version was greatly enhanced and offered better compatibility with my specific hardware.  I'd be much obliged if anyone can help.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jonathan
> new_castle_j  at yahoo


From ryan at diskfutility.com  Wed Jun 12 12:56:53 2019
From: ryan at diskfutility.com (Ryan Eisworth)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 12:56:53 -0500
Subject: Need a part for Sun 2/120. 
In-Reply-To: <0D0084BB-F826-4DC8-92FD-C54AFA6CB0BD@gmail.com>
References: <0D0084BB-F826-4DC8-92FD-C54AFA6CB0BD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D0839D1E-BF87-4C9E-8D1F-A55624D80124@diskfutility.com>

I think I may have a spare bracket, but I don't have the internal video cable to go to it. I have two 2/120 systems, but they were in the process of being dismantled when I rescued them so they came as a pile of parts. I only have one case (which is missing some sheet metal and the front panel) but I have otherwise roughly two systems worth of parts and boards. I'll do some digging and see what I can find.

When I set up a system I ran off the video port off the front of the card into a homemade TTL converter into a VGA monitor, and I built a converter to use a Type 4 keyboard and mouse.

What does the 2/120 keyboard cable even look like? RJ11 to ... ?

On Apr 23, 2019, at 5:48 PM, Earl Baugh via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I?m in the process of restoring a Sun 2/120 and realized that the unit I have doesn?t have the back plate and cables for monitor and keyboard/mouse. 
> 
> I have spare parts to trade for 2/120 ( including a sun 2/120 keyboard cable I found today. ) or can do $$
> 
> Earl 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


-- 
...although, I could be wrong...
Ryan Eisworth - Brenham, TX, USA


From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Wed Jun 12 13:10:45 2019
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 13:10:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <C88E6E3D-8509-4315-890D-858F31D51C24@snowmoose.com>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <23FFF981-CC4A-4337-B0CE-EF96D01F32F3@kdbarto.org>
 <CAMTenCHhxJgV+-zCZv3iWWpZOas1yOSP6V0UAs_e3O98z9v4jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <C88E6E3D-8509-4315-890D-858F31D51C24@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <896527838.26038.1560363045783@email.ionos.com>


> On June 12, 2019 at 12:45 PM Alan Perry via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Ok. Here is a second thank you. An interesting read.
> > On Jun 12, 2019, at 9:58 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 18:55, David <david at kdbarto.org> wrote:
> > > 
> > > I found it most interesting, thanks for sending out the link.
> > Oh good. I'm glad to hear that. One "thank you" makes it worth the while. :-)
> > 
> > -- 
> > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
> > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
> > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

And a third.
CISC VS RISC MINUS RELIGION -- rare

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Jun 12 13:32:57 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 14:32:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
Message-ID: <20190612183257.A15D418C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Liam Proven

    > Now, my tablet and iPhone and Android phones need *at least* 3 or 4
    > apps updating every day. ... The OS needs to be replaced every month
    > or two to fix all the flaws in it, and that's a gigabyte or so of
    > storage.
    > I am *furious* about this.
    > ...
    > I had a better *phone* and a better *PDA* 20 years ago. 

Great rant.

I myself much prefer my Windows98 machines to my Windows 10 laptop, which
I had to buy because i) many Web sites won't work without the latest and
greatest browser (in many cases because of the nitwitted craze for not
just HTTPS, but the latest and greatest security option for it - but let
me not get derailed into that rant into lemming-like stupidity), and those
are only available for the latest and greated bloatware OS.

	Noel

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed Jun 12 15:25:46 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 16:25:46 -0400
Subject: TurboDOS for S-100, IMS or L/F Technologies
In-Reply-To: <634290515.482128.1560360616920@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <634290515.482128.1560360616920.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <634290515.482128.1560360616920@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueNBUMn20=rft15yZke5O_L+c+J7t-XX7H3UJUwO+Cpqw@mail.gmail.com>

I checked I do not have the OS disk, at least not in the obvious places.

On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 1:30 PM Jonathan Haddox via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Sure, I will list out the hardware I'm planning on using.
> IMS A645 Z-80 Processor
> IMS A631 serial/parallel I/O
> IMS A930 Floppy controller
> IMS A465 64K RAM
> IMS 1100 Winchester Hard disk controller
> IMS 862 User Processor (Z80)
> IMS 1081 User Processor (186)
> IMS 1120 Tape Controller
> Earth Computers ARCnet board
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Tue, 6/11/19, Bill Degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Subject: Re: TurboDOS for S-100, IMS or L/F Technologies
>  To: "Jonathan Haddox" <new_castle_j at yahoo.com>, "General Discussion:
> On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>  Date: Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 6:47 PM
>
>
>
>  On Tue, Jun 11,
>  2019, 12:55 PM Jonathan Haddox via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>  wrote:
>  I'm
>  restoring an IMS - L/F Technologies S-100 Bus computer.
>  I've got all the pieces except for the Operating
>  System.  I'm hoping that someone here may have a disk
>  stashed away.  From the literature I have read, I would
>  need TurboDOS version 1.40a or 1.41c from IMS or L/F
>  Technologies.  I've seen TurboDOS 1.3 versions out in
>  the wild from IMS, but the 1.4 version was greatly enhanced
>  and offered better compatibility with my specific
>  hardware.  I'd be much obliged if anyone can help.
>
>
>
>  Thanks,
>
>
>
>  Jonathan
>
>  new_castle_j  at yahoo
>
>  Can you detail the associated
>  hardware (drive controller, drive model, CPU,
>  etc.)
>
>

From alan at alanlee.org  Wed Jun 12 15:47:58 2019
From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 16:47:58 -0400
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <3dc3ee54-b2ee-8556-48e0-53d6790338ec@sydex.com>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8B4C35F7-7B9E-4C62-9011-2FCBE35D372C@comcast.net>
 <3dc3ee54-b2ee-8556-48e0-53d6790338ec@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4f13d83e79ed5f56d6d1ddff5d47ecec@alanlee.org>


I especially appreciated he not only offered an opinion - his specific 
ideas on where the boarder between RISC and CISC was - but then provided 
an analysis of a bunch of processors based on those criteria and an 
analysis of the outliers that challenged his criteria.  It's a well 
thought-out and explained opinion that just doesn't happen often on the 
Internet.

I assume from RS/6000, he meant generally the Power gen 1 architecture.  
And IBM RT/PC he meant ROMP.  I'm pretty sure Alpha was well established 
when he wrote the analysis.  Would have been nice to see that included.  
If I had more time, I'd research it.  Maybe SuperH and WE32 as well.

Thanks for sharing! +1

-Alan H.

On 2019-06-12 13:45, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>>> On Jun 12, 2019, at 11:59 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk 
>>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Goes a bit over my head but may be of interest:
>>> 
>>> https://userpages.umbc.edu/~vijay/mashey.on.risc.html

> There are fuzzy areas.   Consider the ETA 10--a very RISC scalar unit
> that pretty much fulfills the criteria laid out, bolted onto a vector
> unit (all memory-memory).

From jecel at merlintec.com  Wed Jun 12 16:32:35 2019
From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 18:32:35 -0300 
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <4f13d83e79ed5f56d6d1ddff5d47ecec@alanlee.org>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8B4C35F7-7B9E-4C62-9011-2FCBE35D372C@comcast.net>
 <3dc3ee54-b2ee-8556-48e0-53d6790338ec@sydex.com>
 <4f13d83e79ed5f56d6d1ddff5d47ecec@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <20190612213241.94B3D13C0890@proxy.email-ssl.com.br>

Alan,

> I especially appreciated he not only offered an opinion - his specific 
> ideas on where the boarder between RISC and CISC was - but then provided 
> an analysis of a bunch of processors based on those criteria and an 
> analysis of the outliers that challenged his criteria.  It's a well 
> thought-out and explained opinion that just doesn't happen often on the 
> Internet.

It does happen quite a lot but is drowned out by the far larger volume
of nonsense.

> I assume from RS/6000, he meant generally the Power gen 1 architecture.  
> And IBM RT/PC he meant ROMP.  I'm pretty sure Alpha was well established 
> when he wrote the analysis.  Would have been nice to see that included.  

The text explains the situation in 1991 and the Alpha was released in
1992.

-- Jecel

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun 12 16:35:37 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 14:35:37 -0700
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <4f13d83e79ed5f56d6d1ddff5d47ecec@alanlee.org>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8B4C35F7-7B9E-4C62-9011-2FCBE35D372C@comcast.net>
 <3dc3ee54-b2ee-8556-48e0-53d6790338ec@sydex.com>
 <4f13d83e79ed5f56d6d1ddff5d47ecec@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <9c5f73e8-f596-eeb7-c26a-fb43af70ae59@sydex.com>

On 6/12/19 1:47 PM, alan--- via cctalk wrote:
> 
> I especially appreciated he not only offered an opinion - his specific
> ideas on where the boarder between RISC and CISC was - but then provided
> an analysis of a bunch of processors based on those criteria and an
> analysis of the outliers that challenged his criteria.? It's a well
> thought-out and explained opinion that just doesn't happen often on the
> Internet.
> 
> I assume from RS/6000, he meant generally the Power gen 1 architecture.?
> And IBM RT/PC he meant ROMP.? I'm pretty sure Alpha was well established
> when he wrote the analysis.? Would have been nice to see that included.?
> If I had more time, I'd research it.? Maybe SuperH and WE32 as well.
> 

Is the discussion restricted to microprocessors?

--Chuck


From imp at bsdimp.com  Wed Jun 12 17:09:42 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 16:09:42 -0600
Subject: In search of an ancient IEEE-754 floating point test suite
In-Reply-To: <201906121649.x5CGngc8016339@ultimate.com>
References: <31ba55df-794a-49be-b29f-e4476778d985@www.fastmail.com>
 <201906121649.x5CGngc8016339@ultimate.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfp-ZXxprFNCuVgUrii+DR7amzsX+kUG13Ed_bQD2qp7zA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 10:49 AM Phil Budne via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Have you looked at http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/software/ieee/ ?
> Which says:
>
>     "All C programs can also be compiled with old-style Kernighan and
>     Ritchie C. However, inasmuch as I now have access to only one such
>     old compiler, with more than 35 others supporting 1989 Standard C,
>     I no longer attempt to retain K&R compatibility in new code.
>
> If you run into trouble, perhaps Nelson has older versions stashed away?
>

Can't you just run unprotoize on it?

Warner

From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com  Wed Jun 12 17:52:51 2019
From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 17:52:51 -0500
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <20190609140503.6212918C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190609140503.6212918C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHnoH6x5uvxrwoVdEm2psxY27BUhU=Th101bo2T6Rz8Bxz8pTw@mail.gmail.com>

I have been working on it for the past week, and I would say the I have my
system 95% functional as of now.

On Sun, Jun 9, 2019 at 9:05 AM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:

>     > unlike my M8017, it will actually respond to my inputs on my
>     > terminal. I'm pretty sure I may just have the card configured
>     > incorrectly, but I'm not going to worry about that for now.
>
> If the M8017 is actually broken, I would be more than happy to trade a
> working, tested DLV11-J (useful for TU58 emulation :-) for it, as I'd
> like to have a DLV11-E for my collection.
>

Taking a closer look at it, it appears that I did not have my connector
built correctly. It seems to work now.

I got the tu58em software running on my laptop, interfected to my system
via the DLV11-J I have. I was able to load XXDP and RT-11 more or less
without a hitch. Typing in the bootstrap code is a real pain to do every
time I want to boot the system, so I really need to get that MXV11-A
working. While RT-11 boots, I am seeing some oddities that don't show up
under a normal 11/03 emulated under SIMH.

 - Upon startup, the DIR command will refuse to list the directory, and
just return a "?MON-F-Trap to 4 020142" error. This issue can be corrected
by running V2.1 BASIC or another application, which then after the DIR
command will work normally.

- Also upon startup, sometimes normal RT-11 commands such as DATE and D
will return ?KMON-F-File not found DK:*.SAV. This has like a 50% chance of
happening.

- Saving a file under K52 where the file length has been shortened will
also return a ?MON-F-Trap error, and refuse to save the file correctly.
This only happens sometimes.

I am betting (or hoping) that this is just an issue with the TU58 emulator
I am using, and not something wrong with the CPU. I have parts on the way
for a RX02 emulator, so hopefully that will fix some of the issues I have
having (and make it faster too).

On top of that, the RUN/HALT and LTC lights on the front panel still do not
function, even thought the switches clearly work and the computer responds
accordingly. I am betting this is an issue with on the board somewhere, but
as it does not impede functionality I am fine with it for now.

One last question, besides TU58 and RX02, are there any other good storage
options for a Q/Q 16 bit backplane PDP-11. I know there are SCSI hard drive
boards for the 18 and 22 bit backplanes, but it would be nice if there was
one that could work with my 16 bit H11A.

Well, this project has been a lot of fun. Thank you for all the help you
guys have gave me. Gavin.

From useddec at gmail.com  Wed Jun 12 22:46:25 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 22:46:25 -0500
Subject: looking for info on SIMMS
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOOpj_cDVjUOzGce9Sm2sEwsuFdZvejVKR6dK=m8_Qocg@mail.gmail.com>

I'm sorting out a bunch of SIMMS and would like to identify the type of
system they are from and the size.  Does anyone know of any published lists
that could help me ID them?

So far I have found:
 MS02
MS02-AA
54-19813-AX
Clearpoint D52/8MB
Clearpoint      32MB
Kingston KTV-5000/32
Kingston KTV GX/32 8Mx72
Micro Tech MB 360436M-7
Micro Tech MT18CD472F6-6X 20-47083D7
                   MT8D132G-6
54-24829-DA
54-20352-01
54-21139-CL
54-21225
54-20410-01
54-20116

Thanks, Paul

From bear at typewritten.org  Thu Jun 13 00:01:06 2019
From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 22:01:06 -0700
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 57, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsVSjke1wSL3kQhrxobTjC68umtws1WqT8bnwWJ0C+oj1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1560358800.18626.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <CAM4zSsXQVdU95CdR4UUUGWsfTXVqL0or++BNAx9P5V=wZWXnGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXq-prLM3xZr97h255mSVBxofFn8sD04UhrtUaSVEpEFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsVSjke1wSL3kQhrxobTjC68umtws1WqT8bnwWJ0C+oj1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3EAC29C8-07AB-4FD4-97F0-453D24DA02B3@typewritten.org>


On Jun 12, 2019, at 10:47 AM, shadoooo via cctech wrote:

> maybe there's a short between RXD and TXD, or possibly the GND is
> unconnected...
> This could cause an echo on the cable, and while the console is echoing
> too, this give an infinite repetition, only ended by the limited console
> buffer size...

I think you got closest. There is apparently something problematic about the way modem control is wired through my cables. While I was arsing around, grasping at other sorts of proverbial straws, I ended up with the same cable plugged in with the ends the opposite way around and it started working fine. Swap ends again, the fault returns. I figured since the VAX end doesn't use modem or flow control, it wouldn't matter how they were or weren't wired. Wrong!


ok
bear.

-- 
until further notice


From bear at typewritten.org  Thu Jun 13 00:01:06 2019
From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 22:01:06 -0700
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 57, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsVSjke1wSL3kQhrxobTjC68umtws1WqT8bnwWJ0C+oj1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1560358800.18626.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <CAM4zSsXQVdU95CdR4UUUGWsfTXVqL0or++BNAx9P5V=wZWXnGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXq-prLM3xZr97h255mSVBxofFn8sD04UhrtUaSVEpEFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsVSjke1wSL3kQhrxobTjC68umtws1WqT8bnwWJ0C+oj1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3EAC29C8-07AB-4FD4-97F0-453D24DA02B3@typewritten.org>


On Jun 12, 2019, at 10:47 AM, shadoooo via cctech wrote:

> maybe there's a short between RXD and TXD, or possibly the GND is
> unconnected...
> This could cause an echo on the cable, and while the console is echoing
> too, this give an infinite repetition, only ended by the limited console
> buffer size...

I think you got closest. There is apparently something problematic about the way modem control is wired through my cables. While I was arsing around, grasping at other sorts of proverbial straws, I ended up with the same cable plugged in with the ends the opposite way around and it started working fine. Swap ends again, the fault returns. I figured since the VAX end doesn't use modem or flow control, it wouldn't matter how they were or weren't wired. Wrong!


ok
bear.

-- 
until further notice


From emu at e-bbes.com  Thu Jun 13 06:23:41 2019
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 07:23:41 -0400
Subject: looking for info on SIMMS
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuOOpj_cDVjUOzGce9Sm2sEwsuFdZvejVKR6dK=m8_Qocg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOOpj_cDVjUOzGce9Sm2sEwsuFdZvejVKR6dK=m8_Qocg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b300913c-5628-79f2-aac0-d16845e356b5@e-bbes.com>

On 2019-06-12 23:46, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote:
> I'm sorting out a bunch of SIMMS and would like to identify the type of
> system they are from and the size.  Does anyone know of any published lists
> that could help me ID them?
> 
> So far I have found:
>  MS02
> MS02-AA

Hello Paul,
the MS02 is memory for Decstations. If you have any MS02-CA,
I would be even interested ...

Cheers,
emanuel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Jun 13 08:41:44 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 09:41:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
Message-ID: <20190613134144.417AB18C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Allison

    >>  "The console emulator Octal Debugging Technique (ODT)is a portion of
    >>  the processor microcode ... The console ODT implemented on the LSI-11/23,
    >>  PDP-11/23 and PDP-11/23-PLUS is identical."

    > However LSI-11/23 whatever that is, typo?

No, that's exactly what's in the manual I cited; as you say, though:

    > That always had me during my yeas at DEC going which one are you
    > talking about, as every thing had at least three names (never
    > minding numbers) and one was usually ambiguous or a nonspecific
    > family name.

DEC's naming of systems always drove me wild. To me, the worst one is the
lack of a name for a system including a KDJ11-A; as someone here pointed
out, the name "-11/73" is properly only applied to systems with a KDJ11-B
and no PMI memory. As I understand it, DEC apparently didn't sell
KDJ11-A's in complete, new, systems (it was just an upgrade board), so no
number was ever allocated.

	Noel

From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Thu Jun 13 14:02:17 2019
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 20:02:17 +0100
Subject: looking for info on SIMMS
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuOOpj_cDVjUOzGce9Sm2sEwsuFdZvejVKR6dK=m8_Qocg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOOpj_cDVjUOzGce9Sm2sEwsuFdZvejVKR6dK=m8_Qocg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d9cbd0ee-0b26-3f34-2b2e-d417dcf21dbf@ntlworld.com>

On 13/06/2019 04:46, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote:
> I'm sorting out a bunch of SIMMS and would like to identify the type of
> system they are from and the size.  Does anyone know of any published lists
> that could help me ID them?
>
> So far I have found:
>   MS02
> MS02-AA


The MS02-AA is 8MB and would have been used in a DECstation 5000 Model 
200 (and 240) (and the equivalent DECsystem).

The corresponding MS02-CA (in case you have any) was 32MB.


No idea about the rest I'm afraid.


Antonio


-- 

Antonio Carlini
antonio at acarlini.com


From aperry at snowmoose.com  Thu Jun 13 14:33:17 2019
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 12:33:17 -0700
Subject: Value of Burroughs B9974 disk pack
Message-ID: <f7b2c2bd-25ca-0f13-35c6-fe03ee9cca31@snowmoose.com>


When I worked for Burroughs/Unisys, I was one of the last people working 
on software for B1000. I think I was the sole user of the B1965 at their 
Lake Forest (Orange County) California office in '88-89. I was 
surrounded in my cubicle by all of the disk packs for that system. My 
favorite systems while at Burroughs was the B1000s.

One of those type of disk packs is up on eBay right now and I am trying 
to decide whether to buy it. It is $60 plus another $40 for shipping. Is 
that too much? I almost never see Burroughs stuff, so, if I want 
Burroughs stuff, I should just get it, right?

alan


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Thu Jun 13 16:50:32 2019
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 22:50:32 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: IBM VM/CMS documentation
Message-ID: <01R7U8X94SP28WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>

I am looking for documentation of the NUCEXT CMS macro/function in IBM's
VM/SP, VM/HPO, VM/XA or VM/ESA from the mid 1980s to the mid 1990s.

SC19-6209-0 "VM/SP CMS Command and Macro Reference" from September 1980 
available on bitsavers.org does not contain any reference to NUCEXT,
apparantly because it had not been developed at that time.  The next 
version of this manual that I can find on bitsavers is SC19-6209-4
"VM/SP CMS Command Reference Release 5" from December 1986, however by
that time, the macros section had been moved into a different manual
("VM/SP CMS Macro Reference" I think, which I have not been able to locate
anywhere). Other manuals also reference "VM/SP Data Areas and Control Block
Logic, Volume 2" which I have not been able to find any versions of either.

I am aware of z/VM manuals available on the IBM website which contain some
information about NUCEXT but I would prefer to use the older manuals if at
all possible as internals tend to be documented in far more detail in the
older manuals and the newer manuals contain a lot of unwanted complexity
due to the need to document newer features that I don't have any interest
in, plus the replacement and obsolesence of features I am interested in.

Does anyone have a CMS command and Macro Reference, CMS Macro Reference or
Data Areas and Control Block Logic, Volume 2 manual from the mid to 1980s
to the mid 1990s who would be willing to scan information about NUCEXT for
me?

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Thu Jun 13 17:43:00 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 16:43:00 -0600
Subject: IBM VM/CMS documentation
In-Reply-To: <01R7U8X94SP28WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <01R7U8X94SP28WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <ffaf0256-0d23-f8dd-0cea-b6833500fdd4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/13/19 3:50 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:
> Does anyone have a CMS command and Macro Reference, CMS Macro Reference 
> or Data Areas and Control Block Logic, Volume 2 manual from the mid to 
> 1980s to the mid 1990s who would be willing to scan information about 
> NUCEXT for me?

You might want to ask your question on the IBM-MAIN or IBMVM mailing 
list(s).

You might also try the Hercules-390 mailing list.  (There might also be 
one for VM in Hercules.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From jpstewart at sympatico.ca  Thu Jun 13 17:58:06 2019
From: jpstewart at sympatico.ca (John-Paul Stewart)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 18:58:06 -0400
Subject: looking for info on SIMMS
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuOOpj_cDVjUOzGce9Sm2sEwsuFdZvejVKR6dK=m8_Qocg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOOpj_cDVjUOzGce9Sm2sEwsuFdZvejVKR6dK=m8_Qocg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d0412b43-2935-5490-b7df-89252b0cece9@sympatico.ca>

On 2019-06-12 11:46 p.m., Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote:
> I'm sorting out a bunch of SIMMS and would like to identify the type of
> system they are from and the size.  Does anyone know of any published lists
> that could help me ID them?
> [...]
> 54-24829-DA
> 54-20352-01
> 54-21139-CL
> 54-21225
> 54-20410-01
> 54-20116

Those ones starting with 54- all look like DEC part numbers for
individual SIMMs that (at least in some cases) were used to make up a
larger kit with a completely different name.  E.g., the 54-21139-CL are
4MB SIMMs that were sold in sets of 8 as the MS15-CA 32MB kit.

Unfortunately, I have no idea what the others are.  Just that they might
be part of different kits.

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Thu Jun 13 18:52:53 2019
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 00:52:53 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: IBM VM/CMS documentation
In-Reply-To: <ffaf0256-0d23-f8dd-0cea-b6833500fdd4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <01R7U8X94SP28WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <01R7UD1TZYHY8WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> You might want to ask your question on the IBM-MAIN or IBMVM mailing 
> list(s).
>

Thanks.  Where is the IBMVM mailing list located?

>
> You might also try the Hercules-390 mailing list.  (There might also be 
> one for VM in Hercules.
>

I've already posted on the H390-VM list.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

>
> -- 
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 13 21:28:17 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 19:28:17 -0700
Subject: Scotch 770 tape types
In-Reply-To: <4f13d83e79ed5f56d6d1ddff5d47ecec@alanlee.org>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8B4C35F7-7B9E-4C62-9011-2FCBE35D372C@comcast.net>
 <3dc3ee54-b2ee-8556-48e0-53d6790338ec@sydex.com>
 <4f13d83e79ed5f56d6d1ddff5d47ecec@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <c3b0e19d-6b7e-fd5b-75d3-4d0a2d2d0f9a@sydex.com>

I'm handling some tapes from the late 60s-early 70s and came across a
curious situation.

There are many Scotch 701 and 777 tapes in the lot with "yellow" labels,
but on the single 777 "blue label" tape, I've encountered binder bleed
something fierce.  Running a reel through the tape cleaner at low speed
leaves a coating of sticky goo on the cleaning blade and the tape where
the tape motion stops.   Fortunately, the goo can be cleaned off the
tape with some 91% isopropanol; the same holds for the cleaner blade.

This was with a tape that had spent a day "baking".  Of course, there
was no way this tape was going to make it through a drive without
sticking to the guides or heads.   I coated the tape with a film of
cyclomethicone and reading was successful without issues.

But I'm curious--I thought that a manufacturer's media type number
should be the same, no matter when the tape was manufactured.
Obviously, this isn't true--there's "yellow" 777 and then there's "blue"
777.

Just a word of caution...

--Chuck

From aperry at snowmoose.com  Thu Jun 13 22:50:24 2019
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 20:50:24 -0700
Subject: Value of Burroughs B9974 disk pack
In-Reply-To: <f7b2c2bd-25ca-0f13-35c6-fe03ee9cca31@snowmoose.com>
References: <f7b2c2bd-25ca-0f13-35c6-fe03ee9cca31@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <6372E2CD-D306-421E-91AF-C3E69465099F@snowmoose.com>

So, I ended up getting it. Anyone got a running system that can try to read the data off of it?

> On Jun 13, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> When I worked for Burroughs/Unisys, I was one of the last people working on software for B1000. I think I was the sole user of the B1965 at their Lake Forest (Orange County) California office in '88-89. I was surrounded in my cubicle by all of the disk packs for that system. My favorite systems while at Burroughs was the B1000s.
> 
> One of those type of disk packs is up on eBay right now and I am trying to decide whether to buy it. It is $60 plus another $40 for shipping. Is that too much? I almost never see Burroughs stuff, so, if I want Burroughs stuff, I should just get it, right?
> 
> alan
> 


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Thu Jun 13 23:01:19 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 22:01:19 -0600
Subject: IBM VM/CMS documentation
In-Reply-To: <01R7UD1TZYHY8WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <01R7U8X94SP28WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>
 <01R7UD1TZYHY8WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <47b3d1c4-f31b-7c18-af3b-f7a20ef2c478@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/13/19 5:52 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:
> Thanks.? Where is the IBMVM mailing list located?

http://listserv.uark.edu/

You can probably ask for help and get an automated response by sending 
email to LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UARK.EDU



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Jun 14 05:08:38 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 12:08:38 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <20190612183257.A15D418C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190612183257.A15D418C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFQZZ7W9L4i=VRvgOWMY4THFrUVdxJHEcKTNcoXtgJ8Mw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 20:33, Noel Chiappa via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Great rant.

:-D Thanks!

> I myself much prefer my Windows98 machines to my Windows 10 laptop, which
> I had to buy because i) many Web sites won't work without the latest and
> greatest browser (in many cases because of the nitwitted craze for not
> just HTTPS, but the latest and greatest security option for it - but let
> me not get derailed into that rant into lemming-like stupidity), and those
> are only available for the latest and greated bloatware OS.

Wow. Well, I strongly agree on bloatware OSes and that, but I'm not so
sure about Win9x, especially 98SE, which I regarded as quite bloated
for the 9x series myself!

I did run 95 from choice for a brief time. I moved from Acorn RISC OS
to OS/2 2 on my home computer, in pre-internet times. It did me fine
for some years, although I failed to get Warp 3 to install -- my kit
at the time was very low-end: a laptop with onboard SCSI, a 486DX/50
(*not* DX2, the rare full-speed 50MHz 486) with 8MB of RAM, a ProHance
PowerMouse (also an external keypad) and a Logitech SoundMan
parallel-port sound card.

Warp 3 didn't work with the SoundMan or the PowerMouse or my SVGA
driver (800*600 in 16-bit colour), all of which worked on Warp 2 --
after I had _bought_ the drivers.

Then I got a slightly newer machine from work -- a cast-off 486DX2/66
Gateway desktop. The hardware was now a bit too new for OS/2 2 and yet
not new enough for Warp 3, so I fell between two stools. I tried a
beta copy of Windows Chicago and was amazed at how well it worked,
even Just Worked?. Parallel-port kit, SCSI cards, whatever -- if there
wasn't a Win95 driver, a DOS driver would usually do. It had proper
internal sound card, proper SVGA graphics, an ATAPI CD-ROM, and Win95
just worked with all of it. No editing CONFIG.SYS, no additional
drivers, no modifying the boot disk so you could install the OS
already aware of your new kit.

It was a dream of simplicity and functionality compared to OS/2, I'm
sorry to say. So I switched.

And my flatmate had a PC too, so we networked them over a parallel
cable so we could play Doom against each other. Home Ethernet was
still fanciful for me in 1995.

A bit later, my home cast-off PC got upgraded to a Pentium/90 and I
switched to NT 3.51, and later NT 4, and I never used 9x (or OS/2) as
my main OS on my desktop again.

I did run it on my laptops until about 2001, though.

I didn't like 98's built-in IE, IE-based desktop and things like that,
and customised it to remove that stuff with 98Lite for years. But 98
supported lots of IP addresses, which became useful. 95 supported a
maximum of 4, and with a modem, PCMCIA Ethernet, Firewire and a
direct-cable-connection link all configured, that was it. No new IP
connections for you.

There was a certain simplicity and understandability about Win9x, yes,
but NT was far more reliable, even back in the NT 3 era. DOS and
16-bit apps worked. Drivers, no. So I moved to NT as soon as my kit
could run it, and never looked back.

Until XP, which was a bit bloated for me, so around 2002 I started
exploring full-time Linux and Mac OS X as viable alternatives. I'd
been dabbling with Linux for years but mainly as a server or firewall,
not as a desktop.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Fri Jun 14 05:36:20 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 06:36:20 -0400
Subject: Value of Burroughs B9974 disk pack
In-Reply-To: <6372E2CD-D306-421E-91AF-C3E69465099F@snowmoose.com>
References: <f7b2c2bd-25ca-0f13-35c6-fe03ee9cca31@snowmoose.com>
 <6372E2CD-D306-421E-91AF-C3E69465099F@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufbozFBJEtt+bjyDWDa6WbGQDg1eebTX+XGpGMar3eC-g@mail.gmail.com>

The Philadelphia area has more Burroughs hardware in the wild than most
places, you might just shake a few things free from ex employees living in
the area, if you're lucky.
Bill

On Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 11:50 PM Alan Perry via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> So, I ended up getting it. Anyone got a running system that can try to
> read the data off of it?
>
> > On Jun 13, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > When I worked for Burroughs/Unisys, I was one of the last people working
> on software for B1000. I think I was the sole user of the B1965 at their
> Lake Forest (Orange County) California office in '88-89. I was surrounded
> in my cubicle by all of the disk packs for that system. My favorite systems
> while at Burroughs was the B1000s.
> >
> > One of those type of disk packs is up on eBay right now and I am trying
> to decide whether to buy it. It is $60 plus another $40 for shipping. Is
> that too much? I almost never see Burroughs stuff, so, if I want Burroughs
> stuff, I should just get it, right?
> >
> > alan
> >
>
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Jun 14 07:53:01 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 08:53:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
Message-ID: <20190614125301.79ACA18C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Liam Proven

    > There was a certain simplicity and understandability about Win9x,
    > yes, but NT was far more reliable, even back in the NT 3 era. ..
    > So I moved to NT as soon as my kit could run it, and never looked
    > back.

I was speaking from a user's perspective; I never did much coding under
Windows (well, a fair amount under Cygwin, using only the portable I/O
library, but that's not really _Windows_ programming).

>From that perspective, 98SE was the sweet spot for me (I don't have any
reliability issues, with the configs I run). I do have some XP machines,
and the Windows 10 laptop, but most of mine run 98SE.

	Noel

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Jun 14 08:21:48 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 15:21:48 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <20190614125301.79ACA18C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190614125301.79ACA18C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHC-sWAvaCYrNfqbJVZDr09UD0Nf5WaoFR-4z5JeGMheg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 14:53, Noel Chiappa via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> I was speaking from a user's perspective; I never did much coding under
> Windows (well, a fair amount under Cygwin, using only the portable I/O
> library, but that's not really _Windows_ programming).

Well, me too. I don't really program anything any more and haven't
since the end of the 1980s.

> From that perspective, 98SE was the sweet spot for me (I don't have any
> reliability issues, with the configs I run). I do have some XP machines,
> and the Windows 10 laptop, but most of mine run 98SE.

I am astonished. I never found 98SE a stable or reliable OS and was
glad to get rid of it.

I keep DOS boot partitions around on some of my machines. E.g. my
testbed Thinkpad X200 has a bootable primary IBM PC DOS 7.1 (not 7.01)
primary partition. (The others contain A2, Haiku and Devuan.)

But the recent kit mostly has Win10 around, just in case I need to
reflash a BIOS or root a phone or something. I never normally use it
-- they run Ubuntu normally -- but it's there if I need it. (After an
hour of installing updates, anyway.)

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From aperry at snowmoose.com  Fri Jun 14 10:50:34 2019
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 08:50:34 -0700
Subject: Value of Burroughs B9974 disk pack
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBufbozFBJEtt+bjyDWDa6WbGQDg1eebTX+XGpGMar3eC-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f7b2c2bd-25ca-0f13-35c6-fe03ee9cca31@snowmoose.com>
 <6372E2CD-D306-421E-91AF-C3E69465099F@snowmoose.com>
 <CABGJBufbozFBJEtt+bjyDWDa6WbGQDg1eebTX+XGpGMar3eC-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F863FC76-1051-4FF0-BAFB-D14B7CA84945@snowmoose.com>

The large A Series work was done in Paoli, King of Prussia, Trediffryn and probably other cities around Valley Forge that I don?t recall.

The B1000 work was done in Goleta (Santa Barbara), CA plus mfg in Liege, Belgium. I was responsible for a central piece of system software (GEMCOS), so I knew where the customers were based on bug reports (a large portion of the bugs were from the UK, Ford in Dagenham and the CEGB (Central Electricity Generating Board) in Bristol).

At the most recent VCF PNW, someone who checked out my exhibit told me that there was a B1000, probably in Surplus at University of Washington, but checking with them, they don?t believe they have it.

alan

> On Jun 14, 2019, at 3:36 AM, Bill Degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The Philadelphia area has more Burroughs hardware in the wild than most places, you might just shake a few things free from ex employees living in the area, if you're lucky.
> Bill
> 
>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 11:50 PM Alan Perry via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> So, I ended up getting it. Anyone got a running system that can try to read the data off of it?
>> 
>> > On Jun 13, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> > 
>> > 
>> > When I worked for Burroughs/Unisys, I was one of the last people working on software for B1000. I think I was the sole user of the B1965 at their Lake Forest (Orange County) California office in '88-89. I was surrounded in my cubicle by all of the disk packs for that system. My favorite systems while at Burroughs was the B1000s.
>> > 
>> > One of those type of disk packs is up on eBay right now and I am trying to decide whether to buy it. It is $60 plus another $40 for shipping. Is that too much? I almost never see Burroughs stuff, so, if I want Burroughs stuff, I should just get it, right?
>> > 
>> > alan
>> > 
>> 

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Jun 14 11:25:44 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 09:25:44 -0700
Subject: Value of Burroughs B9974 disk pack
In-Reply-To: <F863FC76-1051-4FF0-BAFB-D14B7CA84945@snowmoose.com>
References: <f7b2c2bd-25ca-0f13-35c6-fe03ee9cca31@snowmoose.com>
 <6372E2CD-D306-421E-91AF-C3E69465099F@snowmoose.com>
 <CABGJBufbozFBJEtt+bjyDWDa6WbGQDg1eebTX+XGpGMar3eC-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <F863FC76-1051-4FF0-BAFB-D14B7CA84945@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <9d4807a4-3c1f-c88a-8630-a6c6227988bc@bitsavers.org>



On 6/14/19 8:50 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
> The large A Series work was done in Paoli, King of Prussia, Trediffryn and probably other cities around Valley Forge that I don?t recall.
> 
> The B1000 work was done in Goleta (Santa Barbara), CA plus mfg in Liege, Belgium. I was responsible for a central piece of system software (GEMCOS), so I knew where the customers were based on bug reports (a large portion of the bugs were from the UK, Ford in Dagenham and the CEGB (Central Electricity Generating Board) in Bristol).
> 
I have a LOT of stuff that I've collected for the 1700/1800/1900 on bitsavers
because of its unusual 'microcode per programming language' architecture.
CHM has a B1955
https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=X2550.2003

I may still have some packs in storage.

> At the most recent VCF PNW, someone who checked out my exhibit told me that there was a B1000, probably in Surplus at University of Washington, but checking with them, they don?t believe they have it.

I don't think a surplus person would know what a 'B1000' would be.
You probably would have to add the second digit


From aperry at snowmoose.com  Fri Jun 14 11:57:27 2019
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 09:57:27 -0700
Subject: Value of Burroughs B9974 disk pack
In-Reply-To: <9d4807a4-3c1f-c88a-8630-a6c6227988bc@bitsavers.org>
References: <f7b2c2bd-25ca-0f13-35c6-fe03ee9cca31@snowmoose.com>
 <6372E2CD-D306-421E-91AF-C3E69465099F@snowmoose.com>
 <CABGJBufbozFBJEtt+bjyDWDa6WbGQDg1eebTX+XGpGMar3eC-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <F863FC76-1051-4FF0-BAFB-D14B7CA84945@snowmoose.com>
 <9d4807a4-3c1f-c88a-8630-a6c6227988bc@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <C1A3EA7C-413B-49C1-8DC4-EB1672206C54@snowmoose.com>



> On Jun 14, 2019, at 9:25 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 6/14/19 8:50 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
>> The large A Series work was done in Paoli, King of Prussia, Trediffryn and probably other cities around Valley Forge that I don?t recall.
>> 
>> The B1000 work was done in Goleta (Santa Barbara), CA plus mfg in Liege, Belgium. I was responsible for a central piece of system software (GEMCOS), so I knew where the customers were based on bug reports (a large portion of the bugs were from the UK, Ford in Dagenham and the CEGB (Central Electricity Generating Board) in Bristol).
>> 
> I have a LOT of stuff that I've collected for the 1700/1800/1900 on bitsavers
> because of its unusual 'microcode per programming language' architecture.
> CHM has a B1955
> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=X2550.2003

That is why I like the B1000. I have been talking to other folks at CHM about seeing the one there, but need to work on my rationale.

> 
> I may still have some packs in storage.

Do you have a way of reading them? I am interested in seeing if there is anything readable on the one I just bought.

> 
>> At the most recent VCF PNW, someone who checked out my exhibit told me that there was a B1000, probably in Surplus at University of Washington, but checking with them, they don?t believe they have it.
> 
> I don't think a surplus person would know what a 'B1000' would be.
> You probably would have to add the second digit

I didn?t just say ?B1000?. I described B18xx and B19xx cabinets because the guy who told me about it wasn?t sure which one it was.

alan 

> 


From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Jun 14 12:14:03 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 10:14:03 -0700
Subject: Value of Burroughs B9974 disk pack
In-Reply-To: <C1A3EA7C-413B-49C1-8DC4-EB1672206C54@snowmoose.com>
References: <f7b2c2bd-25ca-0f13-35c6-fe03ee9cca31@snowmoose.com>
 <6372E2CD-D306-421E-91AF-C3E69465099F@snowmoose.com>
 <CABGJBufbozFBJEtt+bjyDWDa6WbGQDg1eebTX+XGpGMar3eC-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <F863FC76-1051-4FF0-BAFB-D14B7CA84945@snowmoose.com>
 <9d4807a4-3c1f-c88a-8630-a6c6227988bc@bitsavers.org>
 <C1A3EA7C-413B-49C1-8DC4-EB1672206C54@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <fc64d17f-9d88-0793-ba74-67368ca35a90@bitsavers.org>



On 6/14/19 9:57 AM, Alan Perry wrote:
> 
> 
> I have been talking to other folks at CHM about seeing the one there, but need to work on my rationale.

There really isn't much to see that is in the picture. It's not like the system in in one physical location
in storage. Everything is palletized and would have to be brought down from the pallet racking.

I have no way to read the packs. I may still have a drive in my storage, if it hasn't already been scrapped
as I've been downsizing over the past several years.




From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Jun 14 12:17:55 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 10:17:55 -0700
Subject: Value of Burroughs B9974 disk pack
In-Reply-To: <fc64d17f-9d88-0793-ba74-67368ca35a90@bitsavers.org>
References: <f7b2c2bd-25ca-0f13-35c6-fe03ee9cca31@snowmoose.com>
 <6372E2CD-D306-421E-91AF-C3E69465099F@snowmoose.com>
 <CABGJBufbozFBJEtt+bjyDWDa6WbGQDg1eebTX+XGpGMar3eC-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <F863FC76-1051-4FF0-BAFB-D14B7CA84945@snowmoose.com>
 <9d4807a4-3c1f-c88a-8630-a6c6227988bc@bitsavers.org>
 <C1A3EA7C-413B-49C1-8DC4-EB1672206C54@snowmoose.com>
 <fc64d17f-9d88-0793-ba74-67368ca35a90@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <29e56229-a258-5f37-ff77-6b901fb2f531@bitsavers.org>



On 6/14/19 10:14 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 6/14/19 9:57 AM, Alan Perry wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have been talking to other folks at CHM about seeing the one there, but need to work on my rationale.
> 
> There really isn't much to see that is in the picture. It's not like the system in in one physical location
> in storage. Everything is palletized and would have to be brought down from the pallet racking.
> 
> I have no way to read the packs. I may still have a drive in my storage, if it hasn't already been scrapped
> as I've been downsizing over the past several years.
> 
> 
> 

I also still have some 19xx series boards since I had wanted to pull the proms to at least attempt to save
enough information so someone could try simulating the machine in the future. On the list of things to do
is try to save some 1700 2315-style 32 sector packs that I should be able to read if I can ever get back
to working on digitizing non 12 sector packs.


From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Jun 14 12:19:11 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 10:19:11 -0700
Subject: Value of Burroughs B9974 disk pack
In-Reply-To: <29e56229-a258-5f37-ff77-6b901fb2f531@bitsavers.org>
References: <f7b2c2bd-25ca-0f13-35c6-fe03ee9cca31@snowmoose.com>
 <6372E2CD-D306-421E-91AF-C3E69465099F@snowmoose.com>
 <CABGJBufbozFBJEtt+bjyDWDa6WbGQDg1eebTX+XGpGMar3eC-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <F863FC76-1051-4FF0-BAFB-D14B7CA84945@snowmoose.com>
 <9d4807a4-3c1f-c88a-8630-a6c6227988bc@bitsavers.org>
 <C1A3EA7C-413B-49C1-8DC4-EB1672206C54@snowmoose.com>
 <fc64d17f-9d88-0793-ba74-67368ca35a90@bitsavers.org>
 <29e56229-a258-5f37-ff77-6b901fb2f531@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <7e59e685-21fa-1b2b-12f8-6ba899e455cc@bitsavers.org>



On 6/14/19 10:17 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 6/14/19 10:14 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 6/14/19 9:57 AM, Alan Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I have been talking to other folks at CHM about seeing the one there, but need to work on my rationale.
>>
>> There really isn't much to see that is in the picture. It's not like the system in in one physical location
>> in storage. Everything is palletized and would have to be brought down from the pallet racking.
>>
>> I have no way to read the packs. I may still have a drive in my storage, if it hasn't already been scrapped
>> as I've been downsizing over the past several years.
>>
>>
>>
> 
> I also still have some 19xx series boards since I had wanted to pull the proms to at least attempt to save
> enough information so someone could try simulating the machine in the future. On the list of things to do
> is try to save some 1700 2315-style 32 sector packs that I should be able to read if I can ever get back
> to working on digitizing non 12 sector packs.
> 


and read several dozen cold-start and diag cassettes


From aperry at snowmoose.com  Fri Jun 14 12:37:02 2019
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 10:37:02 -0700
Subject: Value of Burroughs B9974 disk pack
In-Reply-To: <fc64d17f-9d88-0793-ba74-67368ca35a90@bitsavers.org>
References: <f7b2c2bd-25ca-0f13-35c6-fe03ee9cca31@snowmoose.com>
 <6372E2CD-D306-421E-91AF-C3E69465099F@snowmoose.com>
 <CABGJBufbozFBJEtt+bjyDWDa6WbGQDg1eebTX+XGpGMar3eC-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <F863FC76-1051-4FF0-BAFB-D14B7CA84945@snowmoose.com>
 <9d4807a4-3c1f-c88a-8630-a6c6227988bc@bitsavers.org>
 <C1A3EA7C-413B-49C1-8DC4-EB1672206C54@snowmoose.com>
 <fc64d17f-9d88-0793-ba74-67368ca35a90@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <AA3605C6-142E-4523-AB2D-FD3F0DD52CA0@snowmoose.com>



> On Jun 14, 2019, at 10:14 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 6/14/19 9:57 AM, Alan Perry wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I have been talking to other folks at CHM about seeing the one there, but need to work on my rationale.
> 
> There really isn't much to see that is in the picture. It's not like the system in in one physical location
> in storage. Everything is palletized and would have to be brought down from the pallet racking.

Yeah, but it is like getting the disk pack, a chance to see and touch something that I haven?t seen in decades that was once a big part of my life.

alan 

> 
> I have no way to read the packs. I may still have a drive in my storage, if it hasn't already been scrapped
> as I've been downsizing over the past several years.
> 
> 
> 


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Jun 14 13:09:57 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 14:09:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Value of Burroughs B9974 disk pack
Message-ID: <20190614180957.3163F18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Alan Perry

    > a chance to see and touch something that I haven't seen in decades
    > that was once a big part of my life.

I know exactly what you mean. PDP-11's were a huge part of my professional
life:

    -11/20: the first computer I actually used, in high school
    -11/45: the computer on which I took my first programming course in
	the CS Dept (amazingly, my group later traded the next computer
	for that very computer, years later)
    -11/40: the first computer that was 'mine', in the sense that I
	controlled it
    -11/70: the computer I did a lot of my early Unix learning/work on
    -11/03: my first packet switch code ran on one of these
    -11/23: the most widespread machine that my early packet switches ran
	on
    -11/73: the timesharing machine at the company that productized my
	packet switch code

I'm very fortunate to now have a lot of PDP-11's in my collection.
(Including an /04 and a /34, machines I never used BITD.) I had no contact
with PDP-11's for many years, but only a few years ago someone here gave
me an -11/84 (if I drove to Wisconsin to get it :-); I stopped off at my
in-law's house to overnight on the way back with it, and they later told
my wife it was the happiest they'd ever seen me!

	Noel

From sellam.ismail at gmail.com  Fri Jun 14 15:23:50 2019
From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 13:23:50 -0700
Subject: Data General Eclipse S140 for sale in Fremont
Message-ID: <CAHJBWnRPJwgdsb3p6XvZaiabd5AA=SKLqtyJE2g0F0KH+ZG1MA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Folks.

I'm just passing along this ad I came across whilst perusing Craigslist:

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/clt/d/fremont-s140-data-general-eclipse/6901706917.html

Asking price is $1,500.  I have no relation whatsoever to the sale or the
seller, just passing along.

Sellam

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Fri Jun 14 17:36:41 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 16:36:41 -0600
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHC-sWAvaCYrNfqbJVZDr09UD0Nf5WaoFR-4z5JeGMheg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190614125301.79ACA18C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHC-sWAvaCYrNfqbJVZDr09UD0Nf5WaoFR-4z5JeGMheg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2e176236-51f9-d34b-fc69-a03020defaaf@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/14/19 7:21 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> I am astonished. I never found 98SE a stable or reliable OS and was glad 
> to get rid of it.

I too had a soft spot for Windows 98 Second Edition.  I ran it for a 
LONG time.

I found it quite stable and used it for a server for a school in '99-'00 
before putting a Linux box in place the following year.

They had 98SE, it worked, and I was able to get it stable for a lab of 
~20 other 98SE machines.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Fri Jun 14 19:27:02 2019
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 20:27:02 -0400
Subject: Value of Burroughs B9974 disk pack
References: <f7b2c2bd-25ca-0f13-35c6-fe03ee9cca31@snowmoose.com>
 <6372E2CD-D306-421E-91AF-C3E69465099F@snowmoose.com>
 <CABGJBufbozFBJEtt+bjyDWDa6WbGQDg1eebTX+XGpGMar3eC-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <F863FC76-1051-4FF0-BAFB-D14B7CA84945@snowmoose.com>
 <9d4807a4-3c1f-c88a-8630-a6c6227988bc@bitsavers.org>
 <C1A3EA7C-413B-49C1-8DC4-EB1672206C54@snowmoose.com>
 <fc64d17f-9d88-0793-ba74-67368ca35a90@bitsavers.org>
 <29e56229-a258-5f37-ff77-6b901fb2f531@bitsavers.org>
 <7e59e685-21fa-1b2b-12f8-6ba899e455cc@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CA2EE42077E44D31B497B260B2426A40@310e2>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Al Kossow via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2019 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: Value of Burroughs B9974 disk pack


> 
> 
> On 6/14/19 10:17 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On 6/14/19 10:14 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/14/19 9:57 AM, Alan Perry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have been talking to other folks at CHM about seeing the one there, but need to work on my rationale.
>>>
>>> There really isn't much to see that is in the picture. It's not like the system in in one physical location
>>> in storage. Everything is palletized and would have to be brought down from the pallet racking.
>>>
>>> I have no way to read the packs. I may still have a drive in my storage, if it hasn't already been scrapped
>>> as I've been downsizing over the past several years.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> 
>> I also still have some 19xx series boards since I had wanted to pull the proms to at least attempt to save
>> enough information so someone could try simulating the machine in the future. On the list of things to do
>> is try to save some 1700 2315-style 32 sector packs that I should be able to read if I can ever get back
>> to working on digitizing non 12 sector packs.
>> 
> 
> 
> and read several dozen cold-start and diag cassettes
>
-----------------

Have you got a suitable drive? I've been meaning to read several dozen series 'L' tapes one of these days.

BTW, a B90 8" drive on eBay, item # 
122904436385

m

From peter at turczak.de  Sat Jun 15 02:19:37 2019
From: peter at turczak.de (Peter Turczak)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 09:19:37 +0200
Subject: IBM PC-RT 6150 looking for help
Message-ID: <76a79558-c1b7-9fbe-be90-c1255ea553da@turczak.de>

In preparation of moving, I dug out a IBM 6150 PC-RT from my basement.
This was my first proper computer as a child, which was donated to me by
a local company that upgraded their CAD system. So it would be
interesting to bring it back to life.

The machine is equipped with an 320 MB ESDI, 10 MBit Baseband Ethernet
adapter and an IBM Megapel graphics adapter.

This baby was quite a sight in 1993 when I got it, with its elegant
console font designed by Knuth.

Now I'm trying to revive the old machine, but there are some hassles:

The hard disk seems to be stuck or the drives electronics are broken, it
does not spin up. As these drives are quite rare, I'm looking for the
SCSI card (Model 6lX700l). Is it right, the PC-RT can boot off SCSI?

While I made images of the install floppies, it seems the AIX base
system 2.0.0. disk #1 is missing. The AIXWindows floppies where not
imaged and seem to be unreadable. Otherwise all VRM/extendes svcs, etc
floppy images are at hand.

So there is a big pile of problems with this box, maybe someone can help
me out with parts and floppy images?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Peter



From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat Jun 15 03:28:30 2019
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 09:28:30 +0100
Subject: Connecting LK250 to VAXmate
Message-ID: <000601d52354$511a49c0$f34edd40$@ntlworld.com>

I recently acquired a VAXmate with an LK250 keyboard. The problem is the
keyboard came without the cable. It uses an 8-pin SDL connector and the
usual tiny MMJ-like connector at the keyboard end. I don't know the pinout
and I don't have the necessary crimping tools, is there any source for such
a cable?

 

Thanks

 

Rob


From emu at e-bbes.com  Sat Jun 15 06:16:24 2019
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 07:16:24 -0400
Subject: IBM PC-RT 6150 looking for help
In-Reply-To: <76a79558-c1b7-9fbe-be90-c1255ea553da@turczak.de>
References: <76a79558-c1b7-9fbe-be90-c1255ea553da@turczak.de>
Message-ID: <bc563696-8d00-5666-a4b0-2adbd09996d7@e-bbes.com>

On 2019-06-15 03:19, Peter Turczak via cctalk wrote:

> The hard disk seems to be stuck or the drives electronics are broken, it
> does not spin up. As these drives are quite rare, 

Model of the hard drive? I think I have some ESDI drives still ...

From silent700 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 15 08:45:31 2019
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 08:45:31 -0500
Subject: Connecting LK250 to VAXmate
In-Reply-To: <000601d52354$511a49c0$f34edd40$@ntlworld.com>
References: <000601d52354$511a49c0$f34edd40$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SGyqempNqw-s7niGWfzts_xk5NF8FksK7smTpvZ=GZH-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 03:28 Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> I recently acquired a VAXmate with an LK250 keyboard. The problem is the
> keyboard came without the cable. It uses an 8-pin SDL connector and the
> usual tiny MMJ-like connector at the keyboard end. I don't know the pinout
> and I don't have the necessary crimping tools, is there any source for such
> a cable?
>

Is it actually MMJ, with the offset pin, like a DEC serial cable? Or is it
just an RJ connector like a telephone handset?  And is the SDL end the same
type as on an IBM model M keyboard?

I have a VAXmate buried in storage. With enough prodding I could dig it out
and try to determine the pinout of the cable.

>

From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Sat Jun 15 09:47:55 2019
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 16:47:55 +0200
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <9c5f73e8-f596-eeb7-c26a-fb43af70ae59@sydex.com>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8B4C35F7-7B9E-4C62-9011-2FCBE35D372C@comcast.net>
 <3dc3ee54-b2ee-8556-48e0-53d6790338ec@sydex.com>
 <4f13d83e79ed5f56d6d1ddff5d47ecec@alanlee.org>
 <9c5f73e8-f596-eeb7-c26a-fb43af70ae59@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <0a37f4fab31ff8fd2288105b2ef6a27360f9b0a3.camel@agj.net>

ons 2019-06-12 klockan 14:35 -0700 skrev Chuck Guzis via cctalk:
> On 6/12/19 1:47 PM, alan--- via cctalk wrote:
> > I especially appreciated he not only offered an opinion - his
> > specific
> > ideas on where the boarder between RISC and CISC was - but then
> > provided
> > an analysis of a bunch of processors based on those criteria and an
> > analysis of the outliers that challenged his criteria.  It's a well
> > thought-out and explained opinion that just doesn't happen often on
> > the
> > Internet.
> > 
> > I assume from RS/6000, he meant generally the Power gen 1
> > architecture. 
> > And IBM RT/PC he meant ROMP.  I'm pretty sure Alpha was well
> > established
> > when he wrote the analysis.  Would have been nice to see that
> > included. 
> > If I had more time, I'd research it.  Maybe SuperH and WE32 as
> > well.
> > 
> 
> Is the discussion restricted to microprocessors?
> 
> --Chuck
> 

With VAX 11/780 and S/360 involved ? I don't think so soo
the Cyber series and 709(4) could be interesting.



From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun 15 10:25:13 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 08:25:13 -0700
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <0a37f4fab31ff8fd2288105b2ef6a27360f9b0a3.camel@agj.net>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8B4C35F7-7B9E-4C62-9011-2FCBE35D372C@comcast.net>
 <3dc3ee54-b2ee-8556-48e0-53d6790338ec@sydex.com>
 <4f13d83e79ed5f56d6d1ddff5d47ecec@alanlee.org>
 <9c5f73e8-f596-eeb7-c26a-fb43af70ae59@sydex.com>
 <0a37f4fab31ff8fd2288105b2ef6a27360f9b0a3.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <6e3e6541-4202-c59d-e861-97e9feac39ea@sydex.com>

On 6/15/19 7:47 AM, Stefan Skoglund wrote:

> 
> With VAX 11/780 and S/360 involved ? I don't think so soo
> the Cyber series and 709(4) could be interesting.

It's difficult to say exactly, because of the constraints on the
definition.   Or does something have to be RISC only if it came after
the definition?

One of the issues with much older systems is that register memory was
very expensive--and the corollary, of course, is that memory in general
was expensive and a bottleneck.  So, for example, the IBM  7030, with
all of its very advanced architecture, remains out of the picture,
because of its single-accumulator architecture.  I don't think I'd call
a 7090 a RISC architecture, either.

There are plenty of early simple-architecture systems, (e.g. IBM 1130)
that fail to qualify under the RISC definition because of this.

One detail about the CDC 6000 that escapes many people is that there are
no condition codes for branches.   Given a three-address architecture,
there's no "compare" instruction either (absent the CMU add-on).  If you
want to compare, say, registers X1 and X2 for equality, your code might
look like this:

	IX0	X1-X2
	ZR	X0,equal-target

The peculiar advantage of this is that condition codes don't come into
the picture for the purposes of instruction scheduling--one simply uses
the normal result reservation mechanism.  The "compare" (IX0) above, can
be anywhere in the preceding instruction stream before the zero jump.

--Chuck




From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat Jun 15 12:02:24 2019
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 18:02:24 +0100
Subject: Connecting LK250 to VAXmate
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SGyqempNqw-s7niGWfzts_xk5NF8FksK7smTpvZ=GZH-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000601d52354$511a49c0$f34edd40$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAEfH1SGyqempNqw-s7niGWfzts_xk5NF8FksK7smTpvZ=GZH-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002601d5239c$1b3c3aa0$51b4afe0$@ntlworld.com>

Sorry, yes, I meant RJ like for a telephone. I believe the SDL end may be like an IBM but I don?t know, it is one of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shielded_data_link_connector

 

Regards

 

Rob

 

From: Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> 
Sent: 15 June 2019 14:46
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com; rob at jarratt.me.uk
Subject: Re: Connecting LK250 to VAXmate

 

On Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 03:28 Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote:

I recently acquired a VAXmate with an LK250 keyboard. The problem is the
keyboard came without the cable. It uses an 8-pin SDL connector and the
usual tiny MMJ-like connector at the keyboard end. I don't know the pinout
and I don't have the necessary crimping tools, is there any source for such
a cable?

 

Is it actually MMJ, with the offset pin, like a DEC serial cable? Or is it just an RJ connector like a telephone handset?  And is the SDL end the same type as on an IBM model M keyboard?

 

I have a VAXmate buried in storage. With enough prodding I could dig it out and try to determine the pinout of the cable. 


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sat Jun 15 13:42:28 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 14:42:28 -0400
Subject: Connecting LK250 to VAXmate
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SGyqempNqw-s7niGWfzts_xk5NF8FksK7smTpvZ=GZH-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000601d52354$511a49c0$f34edd40$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAEfH1SGyqempNqw-s7niGWfzts_xk5NF8FksK7smTpvZ=GZH-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C2C947C2-B887-4947-8A26-49E7FC333C8A@comcast.net>



> On Jun 15, 2019, at 9:45 AM, Jason T via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 03:28 Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> I recently acquired a VAXmate with an LK250 keyboard. The problem is the
>> keyboard came without the cable. It uses an 8-pin SDL connector and the
>> usual tiny MMJ-like connector at the keyboard end. I don't know the pinout
>> and I don't have the necessary crimping tools, is there any source for such
>> a cable?
>> 
> 
> Is it actually MMJ, with the offset pin, like a DEC serial cable? Or is it
> just an RJ connector like a telephone handset?  And is the SDL end the same
> type as on an IBM model M keyboard?
> 
> I have a VAXmate buried in storage. With enough prodding I could dig it out
> and try to determine the pinout of the cable.

LK201 keyboards use a telephone handset type connector.  You might try a handset cord, though it's possible those don't work because of not having enough copper in them.  At least I remember being told that handset cords have "tinsel wire" in them, while LK201 cords use real wire.

	paul



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat Jun 15 17:40:34 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 16:40:34 -0600
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <0a37f4fab31ff8fd2288105b2ef6a27360f9b0a3.camel@agj.net>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8B4C35F7-7B9E-4C62-9011-2FCBE35D372C@comcast.net>
 <3dc3ee54-b2ee-8556-48e0-53d6790338ec@sydex.com>
 <4f13d83e79ed5f56d6d1ddff5d47ecec@alanlee.org>
 <9c5f73e8-f596-eeb7-c26a-fb43af70ae59@sydex.com>
 <0a37f4fab31ff8fd2288105b2ef6a27360f9b0a3.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <31596095-4fe2-8c40-1a5a-19c81d907fa0@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 6/15/2019 8:47 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote:

> With VAX 11/780 and S/360 involved ? I don't think so soo
> the Cyber series and 709(4) could be interesting.

Well the early 1960's was the rise of BIG IRON that had REAL POWER
and that led to people thinking about high level languages and Computer
Science in general. We got  PL/I (USA) and ALGOL (Every where ELSE)
that is a realy hard to compile into effective code. CISC design is
now needed to handle the 'extended features'. C was simmpler,
but still hand many features. RISC came along only because Compilers
could only generate SIMPLE instructions, that matched the RISC format.
My 2 cents.
Ben.


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun 15 19:03:31 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 17:03:31 -0700
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <31596095-4fe2-8c40-1a5a-19c81d907fa0@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8B4C35F7-7B9E-4C62-9011-2FCBE35D372C@comcast.net>
 <3dc3ee54-b2ee-8556-48e0-53d6790338ec@sydex.com>
 <4f13d83e79ed5f56d6d1ddff5d47ecec@alanlee.org>
 <9c5f73e8-f596-eeb7-c26a-fb43af70ae59@sydex.com>
 <0a37f4fab31ff8fd2288105b2ef6a27360f9b0a3.camel@agj.net>
 <31596095-4fe2-8c40-1a5a-19c81d907fa0@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <e35d43e7-683e-4655-7592-3c85874fa75f@sydex.com>

On 6/15/19 3:40 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
> On 6/15/2019 8:47 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> With VAX 11/780 and S/360 involved ? I don't think so soo
>> the Cyber series and 709(4) could be interesting.
> 
> Well the early 1960's was the rise of BIG IRON that had REAL POWER
> and that led to people thinking about high level languages and Computer
> Science in general. We got? PL/I (USA) and ALGOL (Every where ELSE)
> that is a realy hard to compile into effective code. CISC design is
> now needed to handle the 'extended features'. C was simmpler,
> but still hand many features. RISC came along only because Compilers
> could only generate SIMPLE instructions, that matched the RISC format.

I'm not completely sure I'd agree with that assessment.  Heck, we talked
to the hardware design people to add/modify CISC instructions to fit the
compiler needs.

RISC had a benefit not so much for compiler work, but that a greater
issue rate with the optimization and scheduling tasks left to the
compiler (or programmer) rather than the hardware.

I'll posit that RISC offers little gain on simple unified ALU CPUs or a
CPU with a small register file.  Where are are pipelined, segmented and
multiple functional units, RISC starts to shine, provided that the
register file is large enough and the instruction issue rate is fast enough.

For what it's worth, the number of instructions in the ISA does not
define RISC, but rather that the instructions execute quickly.  Some
RISC implementations have large instruction sets.

In fact, RISC does carry a penalty in that you're executing more
instructions to get something done, so your code space is larger; but,
you hopefully have them scheduled such that the whole task runs faster.

A related subject of "let the compiler do it" is VLIW.

--Chuck






From cube1 at charter.net  Sat Jun 15 21:25:30 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 21:25:30 -0500
Subject: Data General Eclipse S140 for sale in Fremont
In-Reply-To: <CAHJBWnRPJwgdsb3p6XvZaiabd5AA=SKLqtyJE2g0F0KH+ZG1MA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHJBWnRPJwgdsb3p6XvZaiabd5AA=SKLqtyJE2g0F0KH+ZG1MA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12d8d593-2474-30b8-79f1-5138bbfbece4@charter.net>

On 6/14/2019 3:23 PM, Sellam Ismail via cctalk wrote:
> Hello Folks.
> 
> I'm just passing along this ad I came across whilst perusing Craigslist:
> 
> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/clt/d/fremont-s140-data-general-eclipse/6901706917.html
> 
> Asking price is $1,500.  I have no relation whatsoever to the sale or the
> seller, just passing along.
> 
> Sellam
> 

Nice looking machine.  Same or similar tape drive to one I have on my
Nova 4 (but can also be connected to my S/140, if I did the cable -
would have to look).   Disk drive is not one I have on my S/140.

JRJ

From guykd at optusnet.com.au  Sat Jun 15 22:17:15 2019
From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 13:17:15 +1000
Subject: List search option?
In-Reply-To: <7A8FD2CF-B74D-4DEC-A318-66A7ED16833C@avanthar.com>
References: <91f4bc0c-fb5f-e813-571b-8a6aab652fa2@cypress-tech.com>
 <91f4bc0c-fb5f-e813-571b-8a6aab652fa2@cypress-tech.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190616131715.0111f7d8@mail.optusnet.com.au>

At 07:32 AM 12/06/2019 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> On Jun 12, 2019, at 7:13 AM, jesse cypress-tech.com via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Is there a list search option on the archives? As in if I wanted to find 
>> a relevant thread for part number ABC123 I could search that somewhere?
>
>A better question might be, is there a complete archive of the list anywhere?  A couple of us might come close, but I know I have holes in my copy.
>
>Zane


Yes, there is. It's mentioned in the email header of every posting.
List-Archive: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/

But there's no mention of a search facility. It would be useful.
This kind of google search seems to work:   url:classiccmp.org "Zane Healy"
But whether it's ALL indexed; don't know.

Guy

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Sat Jun 15 23:09:40 2019
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 21:09:40 -0700
Subject: List search option?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190616131715.0111f7d8@mail.optusnet.com.au>
References: <91f4bc0c-fb5f-e813-571b-8a6aab652fa2@cypress-tech.com>
 <91f4bc0c-fb5f-e813-571b-8a6aab652fa2@cypress-tech.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20190616131715.0111f7d8@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <F91D30DA-01C0-4282-9FDB-B14A43535399@avanthar.com>


> On Jun 15, 2019, at 8:17 PM, Guy Dunphy <guykd at optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> 
> At 07:32 AM 12/06/2019 -0700, you wrote:
>> 
>>> On Jun 12, 2019, at 7:13 AM, jesse cypress-tech.com via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Is there a list search option on the archives? As in if I wanted to find 
>>> a relevant thread for part number ABC123 I could search that somewhere?
>> 
>> A better question might be, is there a complete archive of the list anywhere?  A couple of us might come close, but I know I have holes in my copy.
>> 
>> Zane
> 
> 
> Yes, there is. It's mentioned in the email header of every posting.
> List-Archive: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/
> 
> But there's no mention of a search facility. It would be useful.
> This kind of google search seems to work:   url:classiccmp.org "Zane Healy"
> But whether it's ALL indexed; don't know.
> 
> Guy

CLASSICCMP dates back to about 1996, that?s only a tiny portion.

Zane 

From scott.l.baker at gmail.com  Sat Jun 15 12:31:22 2019
From: scott.l.baker at gmail.com (Scott Baker)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 10:31:22 -0700
Subject: PDP-11/23 for sale in Portland OR
Message-ID: <CABW5Ym=KDhG4_-ypPdV+m7ujzegYvCC8Tb45q8w+nQCmWO3bVA@mail.gmail.com>

The system consists of:

1) a 19" rack-mountable CPU chassis
2) a 19" rack-mountable floppy-disk drive (and  bootable RT-11 floppy-disks)
3) Zenith Z-29-A RS232 terminal

The boards included are:

M8186   KDF11-A 11/23 CPU
?????   256KB parity RAM
?????   DSD-440 floppy disk interface
?????   bus grant continuity card
M8028   DLV11-F Async interface
M8012   BDV11   Bus terminator, bootstrap and diagnostic ROMs
M8016   KPV11   Power fail, realtime clock, (termination)

Also included are several 8" floppy disks with RT/11 and other system
software.

If interested, send me a message.

Thanks,
Scott

From joezatarski at gmail.com  Sat Jun 15 20:33:10 2019
From: joezatarski at gmail.com (Joe Zatarski)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 20:33:10 -0500
Subject: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting (video)
Message-ID: <CAL2F0+robXdWe6nxK-a8J-QgBVQWjfnyZke=GetNfF+VvwH9ag@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Everyone,

I just thought I'd share a video of how I'm going about troubleshooting the
bad DRAMs on my MS650 memory board.

https://youtu.be/eDMhdAEFEgc

I apologize for the shaky-cam, I don't have a tripod, and I needed to do a
lot of panning anyway.

I will be sharing my notes on the MS650 once I have a chance to write them
up properly as well. I wasn't able to find a printset for the RAM card
itself, so I assume one doesn't exist in digital form yet. I have
documented what bit and memory range each DRAM on the card corresponds to,
which may help someone troubleshooting in the future

Regards,
Joe Zatarski

From steven at malikoff.com  Sun Jun 16 01:58:29 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 16:58:29 +1000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <e80dcb14b14729d241a06fdc085c8102.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Looks like the recent recovery in Germany had a precedent. These two happy guys have lugged their 360 out of the
building BUT look at the extra they snagged with theirs, and in great condition too!
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1965-TORINO-Prototipo-auto-GIULIA-SPORT-Speciale-monitorato-da-IBM-System-360/283387708589

;)



From matt at 9track.net  Sun Jun 16 02:59:17 2019
From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 08:59:17 +0100
Subject: List search option?
In-Reply-To: <F91D30DA-01C0-4282-9FDB-B14A43535399@avanthar.com>
References: <91f4bc0c-fb5f-e813-571b-8a6aab652fa2@cypress-tech.com>
 <91f4bc0c-fb5f-e813-571b-8a6aab652fa2@cypress-tech.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20190616131715.0111f7d8@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <F91D30DA-01C0-4282-9FDB-B14A43535399@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <71039437-5cda-c12b-0af1-ab6c885ac3ee@9track.net>

On 16/06/2019 05:09, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Yes, there is. It's mentioned in the email header of every posting.
>> List-Archive: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/
>>
>> But there's no mention of a search facility. It would be useful.
>> This kind of google search seems to work:   url:classiccmp.org "Zane Healy"
>> But whether it's ALL indexed; don't know.
>>
>> Guy
> CLASSICCMP dates back to about 1996, that?s only a tiny portion.
>
> Zane 
There is a more complete archive here (with search facility):

https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp

Matt

From guykd at optusnet.com.au  Sun Jun 16 04:07:20 2019
From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 19:07:20 +1000
Subject: List search option?
In-Reply-To: <71039437-5cda-c12b-0af1-ab6c885ac3ee@9track.net>
References: <F91D30DA-01C0-4282-9FDB-B14A43535399@avanthar.com>
 <91f4bc0c-fb5f-e813-571b-8a6aab652fa2@cypress-tech.com>
 <91f4bc0c-fb5f-e813-571b-8a6aab652fa2@cypress-tech.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20190616131715.0111f7d8@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <F91D30DA-01C0-4282-9FDB-B14A43535399@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190616190720.00e1e880@mail.optusnet.com.au>

At 08:59 AM 16/06/2019 +0100, you wrote:
>There is a more complete archive here (with search facility):
>
>https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp
>
>Matt


https://marc.info/
My God. A firehose of firehoses. 

From lproven at gmail.com  Sun Jun 16 05:26:27 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 12:26:27 +0200
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <2e176236-51f9-d34b-fc69-a03020defaaf@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20190614125301.79ACA18C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHC-sWAvaCYrNfqbJVZDr09UD0Nf5WaoFR-4z5JeGMheg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2e176236-51f9-d34b-fc69-a03020defaaf@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGVVHwWLFNn1rXgRWnjcNfo=ZQ3m7UGug2R0o=iLK8CLQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 00:36, Grant Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> I too had a soft spot for Windows 98 Second Edition.  I ran it for a
> LONG time.
>
> I found it quite stable and used it for a server for a school in '99-'00
> before putting a Linux box in place the following year.
>
> They had 98SE, it worked, and I was able to get it stable for a lab of
> ~20 other 98SE machines.

:-o

*Wow.*

Did you at least compare it to NT? I had NT boxes with uptimes of
months with no special effort. 9x crashed if you gave it  a stern
look. In the trade we called it GameOS at the time.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Jun 16 10:17:21 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 11:17:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
Message-ID: <20190616151721.4FA1318C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

I finally got around to reading that note. My principal reponse is that it got so
far down into details that I couldn't see the larger picture any more.

Going back to the original IBM 801 work, the RISC concept is very simple: to make
the overall system as fast as possible; it did this by making the CPU cycle time
as short as possible. This results in a CPU that is not as easy to work with;
therefore the compiler has to be 'smarter'. In other words, engineering complexity
is moved from the hardware to the software.

This is an an acceptable tradeoff; the complexity in the software is not a recurring
cost, whereas extra gates add cost to every machine produced. Moreover, while the
more complex compiler may be more time-consuming to run, that cost is only paid
once, whereas the efficiency of the binary is felt every time the program is run.

Focusing on what features a CPU does or does not have in some ways misses the
whole point of RISC: it's not about what specific features the CPU has, in
isolation; it's about looking at the system as a whole, all the way up through
the compilers, to maximize performance.

I recall Tom Knight laying out the implication for CPU design very simply, in a
seminar I took back when the idea had just come out: look at the CPU design, and
find the longest signal path; this will set the lower limit on the clock time.
Redesign to remove that path; since the capability that needed it will inevitably be
used only part of the time, the execution increase caused by losing it will be
outweighed by the speedup of all the other instructions.

The other thing one needs to remember, talking about RISC, is that it's now
been almost 40 years since the concept was devised (an eternity in the computing
field), and the technology environment has changed drastically since then. So
RISC has changed and adapted as that environment changed.

Nowadays, when people throw a billion transistors at each CPU, the picture is
somewhat different. Register widows were just the first instance of this sort of
thing; we have this unused area of the chip, what can we put there?


    >> On 6/15/19 3:40 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:

    >> CISC design is now needed to handle the 'extended features'. ... RISC came
    >> along only because Compilers could only generate SIMPLE instructions, that
    >> matched the RISC format.

No; compilers had been created that could use the more complex CISC instructions of,
say, a VAX. RISC post-dated a lot of those developments, and had an entirely
different point.


    > From: Chuck Guzis

    > For what it's worth, the number of instructions in the ISA does not define
    > RISC, but rather that the instructions execute quickly. Some RISC
    > implementations have large instruction sets.

Right; what's reduced is the complexity of the instructions, which leads to
the speedup which is the goal, not the number of them.

In fact, a RISC CPU may actually have more instructions, e.g. separate ones
for different cases, with the compiler being given the responsibility of
picking the right one, instead of the CPU figuring it out as it goes.

    > RISC does carry a penalty in that you're executing more instructions to get
    > something done, so your code space is larger; but, you hopefully have them scheduled
    > such that the whole task runs faster.

This in another aspect, which I've mentioned before, behind the rise of RISC, which
is the changing size and speed of main memory, relative to the CPU. Simpler
instructions are faster, but a given task will need more of them. This is acceptable
if the memory can supply them fast enough. If the memory bandwidth is less, more
complex instructions make sense, to get more out of the limited bandwidth.

Also, if memory is of limited capacity, or expensive, then more complex instructions
make sense, since more can be done with a fixed amount of memory. (The PDP-11 still
scores very high in code density.) This too, however, has been overtaken by the
march of technology.

Still, the basic idea of RISC still applies; make the CPU clock rate as fast as
possible by making the instructions simple, and let software deal with the resulting
issues.

	Noel


From sales at elecplus.com  Sun Jun 16 10:28:00 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 10:28:00 -0500
Subject: Old DEC stuff in Bedford MA
Message-ID: <000601d52458$158a8820$409f9860$@com>

There is an elderly gent in Bedford, MA that was a DEC dealer back in the
day. The following inventory is what he has posted on a service I belong to.
He is very deaf, and he can't hear me over the phone. He is open 9-5 M-F.
Someone needs to go and dig. I don't think he knows where everything is
anymore, and I don't think he can reach high places or lift medium-heavy
things.

Not affiliated with seller, etc.

Charlie Burgess
119A Great Road 
Bedford, MA 01730-2720 
781-275-6800
qeiinc at verizon.net

0132727
03-211265-0
06-888E7620
06-98805420
06-98826020
06141
10-09397-01
10-13102-00
10028002
10028102
10058100
10104
101066
10183/10184
109831-00L
11-10364
11/23-AW
11/34A-HC
11/730
11/750-CA
11/84-AC
1110
11130-DC
11150-CH
11213
11214
11592-906-1
117838-A
12-04403-01
12-09403-01
12-10152-0
12-11196-02
12-11477
12-11519
12-11563
12-11580-01
12-11581-00
12-11583-00
12-11583-01
12-12157-00
12-12199-00
12-12904-00
12-13097-00
12-13185-00
12-13186-00
12-13369-00
12-13686-00
12-14333-JO
12-14360-00
12-14614-02
12-15050-00
12-15292-00
12-1529600A
12-15297-00
12-15336-00
12-15336-08
12-15336-11
12-15360-00
12-15394-00
12-15558-00
12-15633-00
12-15663-00
12-16166-00
12-16166-02
12-16308-00
12-16391
12-16552
12-16827-00
12-17431-00
12-17431-01
12-17474-00
12-17606
12-18320
12-18416-00
12-18633-00
12-19245
12-19245-00
12-19245-01
12-19266
12-20267-01
12-22196-01
12-22196-02
12-22271-01
12-22707-01
12-23196-01
12-23607-04
12-23609-04
12-23609-11
12-23609-15
12-23609-19
12-23609-21
12-24701-10
12-26339-01
12-27591-01
12-28258-01
12-28508-01
12-29258-01
12-29635-01
12-30552-01
12-32022-01
12-32728-01
12-33626-01
12-35173-01
12-35759-01
12-39921-02
12-45246-03
120119-01
123
1351922
13C27A-30
1412DA
16-12256-0
16-12398
16-12497-01
16-1389700B
16-14110-00
16-17186-01
16-19001-01
1616-010
1632TTL
1664ATTL
17-000-82-0
17-00004-00
17-00079-00
17-0008202D
17-00083-06
17-00083-10
17-00083-37
17-00083-49
17-00087-00
17-00100-00
17-00107-01
17-00193-00
17-00198-15
17-00233
17-00254-00
17-00254-01
17-00277-04
17-00280-00
17-00282-00
17-00282-01
17-00282-03
17-00284-00
17-00285-00
17-00285-02
17-00286


Cindy Croxton
Electronics Plus
1613 Water Street
Kerrville, TX 78028
830-370-3239 cell
sales at elecplus.com



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Jun 16 10:47:39 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 08:47:39 -0700
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <20190616151721.4FA1318C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190616151721.4FA1318C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <34a3d46b-5aa5-d7ef-106f-e3e30520c573@sydex.com>

On 6/16/19 8:17 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

> Still, the basic idea of RISC still applies; make the CPU clock rate as fast as
> possible by making the instructions simple, and let software deal with the resulting
> issues.

I'll mention in passing here that the goal of executing the maximum
number of instructions per unit time is a bit of a red herring.  What
really matters is delivering the largest number of results per unit
time.   So SIMD ISAs can blow away scalar RISC implementations for
certain classes of problems, which is why they've been part of
multimedia for a long time now and are even part of ARM (e.g. Neon).

--Chuck




From roelof_klaas at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 16 01:40:44 2019
From: roelof_klaas at yahoo.com (Roland)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 06:40:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Software for Fairy YL-23 IC tester wanted
References: <827079476.1542431.1560667244012.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <827079476.1542431.1560667244012@mail.yahoo.com>

Hello fellow collectors,
I have this Fairy YL-23 IC tester / programmer with ISA bus.
http://matthieu.benoit.free.fr/Fairy_YL-23_Eprom_Programmer_resources_page.htm
The problem: I have no documentation and no software for it.
Can anyone help me getting PC software for it?
Thanks in advance!Regards, Roland Huisman


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun Jun 16 03:23:14 2019
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 09:23:14 +0100
Subject: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting (video)
In-Reply-To: <CAL2F0+robXdWe6nxK-a8J-QgBVQWjfnyZke=GetNfF+VvwH9ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL2F0+robXdWe6nxK-a8J-QgBVQWjfnyZke=GetNfF+VvwH9ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001d5241c$bec8e9e0$3c5abda0$@ntlworld.com>

That is really interesting, sadly I don't have quite as much gear as you, I only have a basic logic analyser, but I am not currently trying to fix a MS650 memory board. You mentioned a KA650 architecture manual and you had a PDF of it in the video. I couldn't find it on Manx? Where can I find it?

Thanks

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Joe Zatarski via
> cctech
> Sent: 16 June 2019 02:33
> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> Subject: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting (video)
> 
> Hey Everyone,
> 
> I just thought I'd share a video of how I'm going about troubleshooting the
> bad DRAMs on my MS650 memory board.
> 
> https://youtu.be/eDMhdAEFEgc
> 
> I apologize for the shaky-cam, I don't have a tripod, and I needed to do a lot
> of panning anyway.
> 
> I will be sharing my notes on the MS650 once I have a chance to write them
> up properly as well. I wasn't able to find a printset for the RAM card itself, so I
> assume one doesn't exist in digital form yet. I have documented what bit and
> memory range each DRAM on the card corresponds to, which may help
> someone troubleshooting in the future
> 
> Regards,
> Joe Zatarski


From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Sun Jun 16 04:47:39 2019
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 06:47:39 -0300
Subject: Software for Fairy YL-23 IC tester wanted
In-Reply-To: <827079476.1542431.1560667244012@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <827079476.1542431.1560667244012.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <827079476.1542431.1560667244012@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKQu3KLPxrj61Nc9SkR150D1=Dxq-V-TiQdRSM1fZ-OOrA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm looking for one of that for Apple II computers for AGES :)
Congratulations for the incredible board!!

---8<---Corte aqui---8<---
http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com
http://www.tabalabs.com.br
---8<---Corte aqui---8<---


Em dom, 16 de jun de 2019 ?s 03:41, Roland via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
escreveu:

> Hello fellow collectors,
> I have this Fairy YL-23 IC tester / programmer with ISA bus.
>
> http://matthieu.benoit.free.fr/Fairy_YL-23_Eprom_Programmer_resources_page.htm
> The problem: I have no documentation and no software for it.
> Can anyone help me getting PC software for it?
> Thanks in advance!Regards, Roland Huisman
>
>

From joezatarski at gmail.com  Sun Jun 16 09:38:52 2019
From: joezatarski at gmail.com (Joe Zatarski)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 09:38:52 -0500
Subject: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting (video)
In-Reply-To: <000001d5241c$bec8e9e0$3c5abda0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <CAL2F0+robXdWe6nxK-a8J-QgBVQWjfnyZke=GetNfF+VvwH9ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d5241c$bec8e9e0$3c5abda0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAL2F0+pyi4pCmVRxjUMh7pxJWsFuZVAqAzK0S4Usuma4k1Qn6w@mail.gmail.com>

sorry, the technical manual actually, which has an architecture *chapter*
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/650/

The idea, eventually, is that I will publish my notes so that you wouldn't
need the logic analyzer, at least for the 8MB board. I just had it hooked
up, so I demoed it. The notes will include a mapping of bits and adresses
to ICs so that you can narrow down which chip from just the ROM monitor. I
don't have a 16MB board, but somebody could honestly probably figure out
the mapping with a logic probe if they had to, just probe /cas while
writing various test addresses, then check the data line while writing
various test patterns. I also came up with some data that produces useful
ECC bits, like all 1s, all 0s, one bit set only, and one bit clear only.
That will also be in the notes when I write it up.


On Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 3:25 AM Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:

> That is really interesting, sadly I don't have quite as much gear as you,
> I only have a basic logic analyser, but I am not currently trying to fix a
> MS650 memory board. You mentioned a KA650 architecture manual and you had a
> PDF of it in the video. I couldn't find it on Manx? Where can I find it?
>
> Thanks
>
> Rob
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Joe Zatarski
> via
> > cctech
> > Sent: 16 June 2019 02:33
> > To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> > Subject: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting (video)
> >
> > Hey Everyone,
> >
> > I just thought I'd share a video of how I'm going about troubleshooting
> the
> > bad DRAMs on my MS650 memory board.
> >
> > https://youtu.be/eDMhdAEFEgc
> >
> > I apologize for the shaky-cam, I don't have a tripod, and I needed to do
> a lot
> > of panning anyway.
> >
> > I will be sharing my notes on the MS650 once I have a chance to write
> them
> > up properly as well. I wasn't able to find a printset for the RAM card
> itself, so I
> > assume one doesn't exist in digital form yet. I have documented what bit
> and
> > memory range each DRAM on the card corresponds to, which may help
> > someone troubleshooting in the future
> >
> > Regards,
> > Joe Zatarski
>
>

From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk  Sun Jun 16 11:15:16 2019
From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 18:15:16 +0200
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <e80dcb14b14729d241a06fdc085c8102.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <e80dcb14b14729d241a06fdc085c8102.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <1a8b13dd-b084-5c26-76ce-bce8aca967b8@ljw.me.uk>

On 16/06/19 8:58 AM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:
> Looks like the recent recovery in Germany had a precedent. These two happy guys have lugged their 360 out of the
> building BUT look at the extra they snagged with theirs, and in great condition too!
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1965-TORINO-Prototipo-auto-GIULIA-SPORT-Speciale-monitorato-da-IBM-System-360/283387708589
>
> ;)

I don't think it's mentioned in their blog, but there was also a
disassembled Porsche 911 but that is being auctioned separately. They
did give back the 911 crankshaft that somehow got mixed up with the
mainframe bits.

Nothing to report other than what's at https://ibms360.co.uk


-- 
Lawrence Wilkinson                          lawrence at ljw.me.uk
The IBM 360/30 page                   http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Jun 16 11:40:26 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 12:40:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 360/20 retrieval in Nuremberg (Was: No subject)
Message-ID: <20190616164026.D5B4718C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Lawrence Wilkinson

    > Nothing to report other than what's at https://ibms360.co.uk

Any partial results in trying to figure out a way to get all the
stuff back from Nuremberg?

You all may wind up having to rent a large truck yourselves, alas...

	Noel

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Sun Jun 16 11:49:51 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 10:49:51 -0600
Subject: Modems and external dialers.
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGVVHwWLFNn1rXgRWnjcNfo=ZQ3m7UGug2R0o=iLK8CLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190614125301.79ACA18C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHC-sWAvaCYrNfqbJVZDr09UD0Nf5WaoFR-4z5JeGMheg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2e176236-51f9-d34b-fc69-a03020defaaf@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMTenCGVVHwWLFNn1rXgRWnjcNfo=ZQ3m7UGug2R0o=iLK8CLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3c31dd06-4566-bc08-4690-7a43791c4d1e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/16/19 4:26 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> :-o
> 
> *Wow.*
> 
> Did you at least compare it to NT?

No.

The machines were donated, they had the '98 OEM sticker on them, it kept 
everything legal.  Seeing as how this was for a school, everything 
worked, and was stable for months at a time, we had no reason to change it.

I had experience with NT 4.0 prior to that.  But I / we felt no 
compulsion to change.

> I had NT boxes with uptimes of months with no special effort. 9x 
> crashed if you gave it  a stern look. In the trade we called it GameOS 
> at the time.

As a workstation, yes, '98 could be unstable.  I have no idea how often 
they would reboot the workstations.  But the server stayed up for weeks 
to months at a time.

There was also the advantage that the server was the same as the 
workstations.  Meaning that a teacher could do things on the server if 
they needed to.  (I lived about an hour away.)

Was it great or the best?  Probably not.  Did it work well enough?  Yes. 
  Did it fulfill their needs?  Yes.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cmhanson at eschatologist.net  Sun Jun 16 18:42:22 2019
From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 16:42:22 -0700
Subject: Definicon DSI-020 software?
Message-ID: <07B04820-5319-44DC-94FE-ADC7609039AB@eschatologist.net>

I?ve recently come into a Definicon DSI-020 coprocessor card, and would like the software that goes with it. Does anyone know where to find it? There?s a zip file that claims to be the DSI-020 software, but it?s actually the DSI-32 software: The DSI-32 is an NS32032 coprocessor card, while the DSI-020 is an MC68020 coprocessor card.

They published an awful lot of information about their cards in BYTE so the DSI-020 shouldn?t be difficult to reverse-engineer but it?d be nice not to have to?

  -- Chris


From technoid6502 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 16 22:19:34 2019
From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 23:19:34 -0400
Subject: IBM PC-RT 6150 looking for help
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1560618000.17620.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1560618000.17620.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <dbe68c63e3dc905606ba8c680b33ed936ba3a8f4.camel@gmail.com>

On Sat, 2019-06-15 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
>  
> The hard disk seems to be stuck or the drives electronics are broken,
> it
> does not spin up. As these drives are quite rare, I'm looking for the
> SCSI card (Model 6lX700l). Is it right, the PC-RT can boot off SCSI?
> 

Hi.  I have a suggestion.  The generation of hard disks you are having
trouble with frequently had a linear actuator and were auto-parking. 
If the parking function failed at power off, not an uncommon fault, the
drive will fail to spin on power-on.  An example of this sort of drive
is the Seagate ST4096.

The time-honored fix for this is to take the drive loose from all
connections and, holding it in both hands with the face towards you, 
bring the face of the drive into your thigh as you raise your thigh to
meet the face of the drive.  The violence of this motion will serve to
park the heads and the drive will spin right up when powered.  I hope
this solves your problem.

Best of luck.

Jeff


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun Jun 16 11:38:10 2019
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 17:38:10 +0100
Subject: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting (video)
In-Reply-To: <CAL2F0+pyi4pCmVRxjUMh7pxJWsFuZVAqAzK0S4Usuma4k1Qn6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL2F0+robXdWe6nxK-a8J-QgBVQWjfnyZke=GetNfF+VvwH9ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d5241c$bec8e9e0$3c5abda0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAL2F0+pyi4pCmVRxjUMh7pxJWsFuZVAqAzK0S4Usuma4k1Qn6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001301d52461$e2e0f940$a8a2ebc0$@ntlworld.com>

Thanks, I am aware of BitSavers of course, so I am not sure why I didn?t think to look there!

 

Regards

 

Rob

 

From: Joe Zatarski <joezatarski at gmail.com> 
Sent: 16 June 2019 15:39
To: rob at jarratt.me.uk
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting (video)

 

sorry, the technical manual actually, which has an architecture *chapter* http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/650/

 

The idea, eventually, is that I will publish my notes so that you wouldn't need the logic analyzer, at least for the 8MB board. I just had it hooked up, so I demoed it. The notes will include a mapping of bits and adresses to ICs so that you can narrow down which chip from just the ROM monitor. I don't have a 16MB board, but somebody could honestly probably figure out the mapping with a logic probe if they had to, just probe /cas while writing various test addresses, then check the data line while writing various test patterns. I also came up with some data that produces useful ECC bits, like all 1s, all 0s, one bit set only, and one bit clear only. That will also be in the notes when I write it up.

 

On Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 3:25 AM Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com <mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> > wrote:

That is really interesting, sadly I don't have quite as much gear as you, I only have a basic logic analyser, but I am not currently trying to fix a MS650 memory board. You mentioned a KA650 architecture manual and you had a PDF of it in the video. I couldn't find it on Manx? Where can I find it?

Thanks

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> > On Behalf Of Joe Zatarski via
> cctech
> Sent: 16 June 2019 02:33
> To: cctech at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctech at classiccmp.org> 
> Subject: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting (video)
> 
> Hey Everyone,
> 
> I just thought I'd share a video of how I'm going about troubleshooting the
> bad DRAMs on my MS650 memory board.
> 
> https://youtu.be/eDMhdAEFEgc
> 
> I apologize for the shaky-cam, I don't have a tripod, and I needed to do a lot
> of panning anyway.
> 
> I will be sharing my notes on the MS650 once I have a chance to write them
> up properly as well. I wasn't able to find a printset for the RAM card itself, so I
> assume one doesn't exist in digital form yet. I have documented what bit and
> memory range each DRAM on the card corresponds to, which may help
> someone troubleshooting in the future
> 
> Regards,
> Joe Zatarski


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon Jun 17 01:49:28 2019
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 08:49:28 +0200
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <6e3e6541-4202-c59d-e861-97e9feac39ea@sydex.com>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8B4C35F7-7B9E-4C62-9011-2FCBE35D372C@comcast.net>
 <3dc3ee54-b2ee-8556-48e0-53d6790338ec@sydex.com>
 <4f13d83e79ed5f56d6d1ddff5d47ecec@alanlee.org>
 <9c5f73e8-f596-eeb7-c26a-fb43af70ae59@sydex.com>
 <0a37f4fab31ff8fd2288105b2ef6a27360f9b0a3.camel@agj.net>
 <6e3e6541-4202-c59d-e861-97e9feac39ea@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20190617064928.d4zj4acmofqf4mfs@Update.UU.SE>

On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 08:25:13AM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> 
> It's difficult to say exactly, because of the constraints on the
> definition.   Or does something have to be RISC only if it came after
> the definition?
> 

I would say that one of the points he was making is that the definition 
is not very clear.

It was enlightning to see that there are properties and traits other 
than instruction count and addressing mode counts that make a design 
RISCy or CISCy

(I haven't read the whole thing yet, it requires some digestion: )

/P

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Jun 17 09:16:16 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 07:16:16 -0700
Subject: Definicon DSI-020 software?
In-Reply-To: <07B04820-5319-44DC-94FE-ADC7609039AB@eschatologist.net>
References: <07B04820-5319-44DC-94FE-ADC7609039AB@eschatologist.net>
Message-ID: <f5f3af80-7ac3-8701-f14b-20249163b096@bitsavers.org>



On 6/16/19 4:42 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote:
> There?s a zip file that claims to be the DSI-020 software, but it?s actually the DSI-32 software

where would that be?



From ronan.scaife at dcu.ie  Mon Jun 17 09:30:27 2019
From: ronan.scaife at dcu.ie (Ronan Scaife)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 15:30:27 +0100
Subject: irish cctech subscribers
Message-ID: <02a7dba2-58d0-ae5f-5f1c-299770d747f7@dcu.ie>

Dear All,

I am particularly interested to make contact with Ireland-based

classic computer collectors or users.

My particular interest is in DEC pdp-8 and pdp11 machines.


Best Wishes,

-- 

--
?This Email, and any files transmitted with it, are confidential, and
are intended solely for use by the addressee.  Any unauthorised
dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and of any
attachments is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this
email in error, please notify the sender and delete the message.
Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of
the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City
University. Email communications such as this cannot be guaranteed
to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free, and we do not accept
liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please
consider the environment before printing this Email.?

==== Dr. Ronan Scaife =============== ronan.scaife at dcu.ie ==========
School of Elec Eng, Dublin City University, Dublin 9,  IRELAND.
http://www.eeng.dcu.ie/~scaifer/ phone (office): +353-1-700-5434
fax: +353-1-700-5508
====================================================================


-- 
*

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*This e-mail and any 
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<https://www.youtube.com/user/DublinCityUniversity>

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Mon Jun 17 10:15:58 2019
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 16:15:58 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: irish cctech subscribers
In-Reply-To: <02a7dba2-58d0-ae5f-5f1c-299770d747f7@dcu.ie>
Message-ID: <01R7ZG5RA7HI8WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>


Hi Ronan,

>
> I am particularly interested to make contact with Ireland-based
>
> classic computer collectors or users.
>

As far as I know, I'm the only other person on this list who fits that
description.  I have seen some possibly Irish names pass by from time to
time but I don't recall anyone else admitting to being from these parts.

>
> My particular interest is in DEC pdp-8 and pdp11 machines.
>

I am more interested in the later DEC machines - VAX and Alpha, as well as
IBM mainframe stuff, BBC micros and a few other odds and ends.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Jun 17 13:18:57 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 14:18:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Missing posts in archive and no Subject: line
Message-ID: <20190617181857.1F98518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So, a couple of posts yesterday did not show up in the date archive:

  http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/date.html

which is how I read the list. They are:

  Software for Fairy YL-23 IC tester wanted
  http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/048094.html
  http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/048096.html

  DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting (video)
  http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/048095.html
  http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/048097.html

I'm not sure what happened, but I note the next post had no Subject: line,
and I'm wondering if that caused it. So best to make sure your posts have
Subject: lines.	

	Noel

From stark at mit.edu  Mon Jun 17 13:18:47 2019
From: stark at mit.edu (Greg Stark)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 14:18:47 -0400
Subject: irish cctech subscribers
In-Reply-To: <01R7ZG5RA7HI8WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <02a7dba2-58d0-ae5f-5f1c-299770d747f7@dcu.ie>
 <01R7ZG5RA7HI8WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <CAM-w4HNeHytK5dHa3QCD66xuwkLxxE=ZFCdOf5xpcSWjX0cxzA@mail.gmail.com>

I was in Dublin until recently. I actually had a vaxstation flown into
Ireland from the states but it moved back with me to Canada recently.

I do know someone in Galway area who had a couple Vaxen but he uses them as
coffee tables and I couldn't seem to interest him in getting them booted.

I'll surely be back sometime, probably without the vaxstation...

On Mon., Jun. 17, 2019, 2:01 p.m. Peter Coghlan via cctalk, <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> Hi Ronan,
>
> >
> > I am particularly interested to make contact with Ireland-based
> >
> > classic computer collectors or users.
> >
>
> As far as I know, I'm the only other person on this list who fits that
> description.  I have seen some possibly Irish names pass by from time to
> time but I don't recall anyone else admitting to being from these parts.
>
> >
> > My particular interest is in DEC pdp-8 and pdp11 machines.
> >
>
> I am more interested in the later DEC machines - VAX and Alpha, as well as
> IBM mainframe stuff, BBC micros and a few other odds and ends.
>
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan
>

From stark at mit.edu  Mon Jun 17 13:18:47 2019
From: stark at mit.edu (Greg Stark)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 14:18:47 -0400
Subject: irish cctech subscribers
In-Reply-To: <01R7ZG5RA7HI8WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <02a7dba2-58d0-ae5f-5f1c-299770d747f7@dcu.ie>
 <01R7ZG5RA7HI8WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <CAM-w4HNeHytK5dHa3QCD66xuwkLxxE=ZFCdOf5xpcSWjX0cxzA@mail.gmail.com>

I was in Dublin until recently. I actually had a vaxstation flown into
Ireland from the states but it moved back with me to Canada recently.

I do know someone in Galway area who had a couple Vaxen but he uses them as
coffee tables and I couldn't seem to interest him in getting them booted.

I'll surely be back sometime, probably without the vaxstation...

On Mon., Jun. 17, 2019, 2:01 p.m. Peter Coghlan via cctalk, <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> Hi Ronan,
>
> >
> > I am particularly interested to make contact with Ireland-based
> >
> > classic computer collectors or users.
> >
>
> As far as I know, I'm the only other person on this list who fits that
> description.  I have seen some possibly Irish names pass by from time to
> time but I don't recall anyone else admitting to being from these parts.
>
> >
> > My particular interest is in DEC pdp-8 and pdp11 machines.
> >
>
> I am more interested in the later DEC machines - VAX and Alpha, as well as
> IBM mainframe stuff, BBC micros and a few other odds and ends.
>
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan
>

From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Mon Jun 17 14:02:47 2019
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 12:02:47 -0700
Subject: looking for a Intel multibus 88/45...
Message-ID: <20190617120247.14a0d8c5@asrock>

I'm in the process of restoring an Intel 310 system. I had it working to
the point where it was trying to boot - when the 88/45 processor
began to fail intermittently and then solidly. My debugging seems to
indicate that the problem is in a PLA - which is a serious bummer.

I have preserved the ROMS (which have built-in diagnostics/debugging
and boot capability for both floppy and Winchester hard disks). I will
make the ROM images available to Al for posting on bitsavers.

If someone on this list has an Intel 88/45 that would be willing to
part with it, please contact me off list. Either a trade or cash
purchase work for me...

Cheers,
Lyle
-- 
73   NM6Y
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
https://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From cmhanson at eschatologist.net  Mon Jun 17 14:17:26 2019
From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 12:17:26 -0700
Subject: Definicon DSI-020 software?
In-Reply-To: <f5f3af80-7ac3-8701-f14b-20249163b096@bitsavers.org>
References: <07B04820-5319-44DC-94FE-ADC7609039AB@eschatologist.net>
 <f5f3af80-7ac3-8701-f14b-20249163b096@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <A068403D-8DD3-4932-A51A-BEE9D0DC10B0@eschatologist.net>

On Jun 17, 2019, at 7:16 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 6/16/19 4:42 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote:
>> There?s a zip file that claims to be the DSI-020 software, but it?s actually the DSI-32 software
> 
> where would that be?

I found it a couple places, including here:

https://datassette.org/softwares/ibm-pc/definicon-dsi-020-coprocessor-system <https://datassette.org/softwares/ibm-pc/definicon-dsi-020-coprocessor-system>

  -- Chris


From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Mon Jun 17 15:39:58 2019
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 13:39:58 -0700
Subject: Looking for a Intel multibus 88/45... (minor corrections...)
Message-ID: <20190617133958.52b177da@asrock>

I'm in the process of restoring an Intel 310 system. I had it working to
the point where it was trying to boot - when the 88/45 processor
began to fail intermittently and then solidly. My debugging seems to
indicate that the problem is in a PLD - which is a serious bummer.

I have preserved the ROMS (which have built-in diagnostics/debugging
and boot capability for both floppy and Winchester hard disks) as files.
I will make these ROM files available to Al for posting on bitsavers.

If someone on this list has an Intel 88/45 (or Intel 310) who would be
willing to part with it, please contact me off list. I can to either do
a trade or cash purchase...

Cheers,
Lyle

-- 
73   NM6Y
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
https://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From guykd at optusnet.com.au  Mon Jun 17 18:34:11 2019
From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:34:11 +1000
Subject: irish cctech subscribers
In-Reply-To: <02a7dba2-58d0-ae5f-5f1c-299770d747f7@dcu.ie>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190618093411.011eaad8@mail.optusnet.com.au>

Hi Ronan,

I know you meant 'in Ireland.' But I can't resist: I'm of Irish ancestry, though born
and residing in Sydney Australia. Also "My particular interest is in DEC pdp-8 and pdp11 machines."

Never thought I'd actually have any, until unexpected events of 2018 and ongoing. Now so far I
have two PDP-8/S to restore ( http://everist.org/NobLog/20181104_PDP-8S.htm )
and two PDP-11:
  Rack 1: PDP 11/44 and one RLO2 diskpack drive.
  Rack 2: PDP 11/34, two RLO2 diskpack drives, and one RK05 disk pack drive.
          Seems to be a complete, intact system.
I have the side panels, various blanking panels, and assorted documentation.
Still making arrangements for a long-term space to set them up and work on them.

Regards,
Guy Dunphy





At 03:30 PM 17/06/2019 +0100, you wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>I am particularly interested to make contact with Ireland-based
>classic computer collectors or users.
>My particular interest is in DEC pdp-8 and pdp11 machines.
>
>
>Best Wishes,
>==== Dr. Ronan Scaife =============== ronan.scaife at dcu.ie ==========
>School of Elec Eng, Dublin City University, Dublin 9,  IRELAND.
>http://www.eeng.dcu.ie/~scaifer/ phone (office): +353-1-700-5434
>fax: +353-1-700-5508
>====================================================================


From brain at jbrain.com  Mon Jun 17 19:01:22 2019
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 19:01:22 -0500
Subject: Apollo Computer Article
Message-ID: <ca6692a0-2723-47d4-f5fb-da4d4197389c@jbrain.com>

Probably too light for folks in here, but maybe some will find some 
interest (apologies if

https://www.fastcompany.com/90362562/this-computer-changed-world-youve-never-heard-about-it


-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com


From joezatarski at gmail.com  Mon Jun 17 13:54:56 2019
From: joezatarski at gmail.com (Joe Zatarski)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 13:54:56 -0500
Subject: Missing posts in archive and no Subject: line
Message-ID: <CAL2F0+oQv5Gix_O2SpU3iJOTD1ewpGLpj77XYFQB0C6q33-WUg@mail.gmail.com>

> So, a couple of posts yesterday did not show up in the date archive:
>
>   http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/date.html
>
> which is how I read the list. They are:
>
>   Software for Fairy YL-23 IC tester wanted
>   http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/048094.html
>   http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/048096.html
>
>   DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting (video)
>   http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/048095.html
>   http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/048097.html
>
> I'm not sure what happened, but I note the next post had no Subject: line,
> and I'm wondering if that caused it. So best to make sure your posts have
> Subject: lines.
>
> Noel

This is a function of the way the two lists work, I think. The posts you
mentioned were sent to cctech. As I understand it, that list is moderated
to ensure it stays on topic. After they've been approved, they will make it
onto cctalk as well. This causes a delay, and sometimes posts don't make it
into the archive list until they are hours old. You'll notice these posts
are now in both archives. The post with no subject had nothing to do with
it, that's just a red herring. This is the behavior of the mailing list for
as long as I remember, though I've only been on here a few years.

From joezatarski at gmail.com  Mon Jun 17 19:56:17 2019
From: joezatarski at gmail.com (Joe Zatarski)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 19:56:17 -0500
Subject: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting (video)
In-Reply-To: <CAL2F0+robXdWe6nxK-a8J-QgBVQWjfnyZke=GetNfF+VvwH9ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL2F0+robXdWe6nxK-a8J-QgBVQWjfnyZke=GetNfF+VvwH9ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL2F0+pZM7G=Qan4CjpxLAW4uoYKqG-OG9hvWOb79NcJiah_Jg@mail.gmail.com>

OK, so where should a thing like this go: https://pastebin.com/taQwaTV6

Anybody got a decent place to upload that? it's my notes on the MS650-AA,
and more generally the KA650 CMCTL memory subsystem.

Includes my theory of operation of the CMCTL, the organization of memory,
the ECC equations (kinda, the info is there to derive them), explanations
of the signals on the memory bus, and most importantly, a list of which
bits and RAM regions correspond to the 312 DRAMs on the board.

On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 8:33 PM Joe Zatarski <joezatarski at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hey Everyone,
>
> I just thought I'd share a video of how I'm going about troubleshooting
the bad DRAMs on my MS650 memory board.
>
> https://youtu.be/eDMhdAEFEgc
>
> I apologize for the shaky-cam, I don't have a tripod, and I needed to do
a lot of panning anyway.
>
> I will be sharing my notes on the MS650 once I have a chance to write
them up properly as well. I wasn't able to find a printset for the RAM card
itself, so I assume one doesn't exist in digital form yet. I have
documented what bit and memory range each DRAM on the card corresponds to,
which may help someone troubleshooting in the future
>
> Regards,
> Joe Zatarski

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 18 00:24:04 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 05:24:04 +0000
Subject: Looking for a Intel multibus 88/45... (minor corrections...)
In-Reply-To: <20190617133958.52b177da@asrock>
References: <20190617133958.52b177da@asrock>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB56085552DB3BF6ACC2087E9EA3EA0@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Hi Lyle
 What is a 88/45? I look up the 310 systems on the web but none mention 88/45.
Is the PAL for address decoding or something more complicated?
Dwight
________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Lyle Bickley via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2019 1:39 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Looking for a Intel multibus 88/45... (minor corrections...)

I'm in the process of restoring an Intel 310 system. I had it working to
the point where it was trying to boot - when the 88/45 processor
began to fail intermittently and then solidly. My debugging seems to
indicate that the problem is in a PLD - which is a serious bummer.

I have preserved the ROMS (which have built-in diagnostics/debugging
and boot capability for both floppy and Winchester hard disks) as files.
I will make these ROM files available to Al for posting on bitsavers.

If someone on this list has an Intel 88/45 (or Intel 310) who would be
willing to part with it, please contact me off list. I can to either do
a trade or cash purchase...

Cheers,
Lyle

--
73   NM6Y
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
https://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Jun 18 09:04:53 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 07:04:53 -0700
Subject: Apollo Computer Article
In-Reply-To: <ca6692a0-2723-47d4-f5fb-da4d4197389c@jbrain.com>
References: <ca6692a0-2723-47d4-f5fb-da4d4197389c@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <91010b3b-d188-4191-6d1b-2dc492857882@bitsavers.org>

this is a bit more heavyweight
http://rescue1130.blogspot.com/2019/06/erasable-core-memory-ram-of-apollo.html

On 6/17/19 5:01 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
> Probably too light for folks in here, but maybe some will find some interest (apologies if
> 
> https://www.fastcompany.com/90362562/this-computer-changed-world-youve-never-heard-about-it
> 
> 


From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org  Tue Jun 18 09:36:05 2019
From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:36:05 -0500
Subject: Missing posts in archive and no Subject: line
In-Reply-To: <20190617181857.1F98518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190617181857.1F98518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <d4661c46-535c-9279-4b4c-668a874a172d@thereinhardts.org>

On 6/17/2019 1:18 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> So, a couple of posts yesterday did not show up in the date archive:
>
>    http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/date.html
>
> which is how I read the list. They are:
>
And now I know why your posts always break the threading in Thunderbird... I'd wondered how it happened. ;)
> 	Noel
>
-- 
John H. Reinhardt


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Jun 18 10:24:08 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 11:24:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Apollo Computer Article
Message-ID: <20190618152408.2076118C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jim Brain

    > Probably too light for folks in here, but maybe some will find some
    > interest

Good high-level view of the importance of the AGC work.

For those who want technical details, there's a Web-site (I can dig up the
URL if anyone wants) about the recovery of the software, and running it
under and emulator; and now there are people doing the hardware too (e.g.
the guy Al pointed at).

	Noel

From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Tue Jun 18 10:29:32 2019
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 10:29:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Apollo Computer Article
In-Reply-To: <20190618152408.2076118C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190618152408.2076118C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <578208267.8564.1560871772156@email.ionos.com>


> On June 18, 2019 at 10:24 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> > From: Jim Brain
> > Probably too light for folks in here, but maybe some will find some > interest
> 
> Good high-level view of the importance of the AGC work.
> 
> For those who want technical details, there's a Web-site (I can dig up the
> URL if anyone wants) about the recovery of the software, and running it
> under and emulator; and now there are people doing the hardware too (e.g.
> the guy Al pointed at).
> 
>  Noel

This site has TONS of stuff, including (links to) much original documentation.  There are also copies of actual flight software that can be run on the simulator.
https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Jun 18 10:36:01 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 11:36:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting (video)
Message-ID: <20190618153601.5D5EE18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Joe Zatarski

    > OK, so where should a thing like this go: ... Anybody got a decent
    > place to upload that?

As always, the CHWiki is available for any vintage computer stuff. I can
set up an account for anyone here who wants one.

I have posted similar information for PDP-11 memory, e.g. here:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/QBUS_memories#Diagnosing_DRAM_memory_failures
  http://gunkies.org/wiki/MSV11-J#Technical_information

which seems to be a direct analogue of the stuff you have.

	Noel

From echristopherson at gmail.com  Tue Jun 18 10:37:44 2019
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 10:37:44 -0500
Subject: Missing posts in archive and no Subject: line
In-Reply-To: <20190617181857.1F98518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190617181857.1F98518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CADyB93B+d1Ueq+otNOu-u_KiA6vnY2eDA5Bqy459i77EjP9+tw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 1:19 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> So, a couple of posts yesterday did not show up in the date archive:
>
>   http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/date.html
>
> which is how I read the list. They are:
>
>   Software for Fairy YL-23 IC tester wanted
>   http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/048094.html
>   http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/048096.html
>
>   DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting (video)
>   http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/048095.html
>   http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/048097.html
>
> I'm not sure what happened, but I note the next post had no Subject: line,
> and I'm wondering if that caused it. So best to make sure your posts have
> Subject: lines.
>
>         Noel
>

List admin:

Please note also that the reply to the message headed "No subject" (which
Noel mentioned) actually seems to have a blank subject, as a result of
which it doesn't seem to be possible to even view it (since there's no link
to click)!  See "Next message:" at the bottom of
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/048087.html.

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Tue Jun 18 05:22:04 2019
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 11:22:04 +0100
Subject: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting (video)
In-Reply-To: <CAL2F0+pZM7G=Qan4CjpxLAW4uoYKqG-OG9hvWOb79NcJiah_Jg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL2F0+robXdWe6nxK-a8J-QgBVQWjfnyZke=GetNfF+VvwH9ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL2F0+pZM7G=Qan4CjpxLAW4uoYKqG-OG9hvWOb79NcJiah_Jg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87284cc4-78fa-c664-ee2b-30a122192453@ntlworld.com>

On 18/06/2019 01:56, Joe Zatarski via cctech wrote:
> OK, so where should a thing like this go: https://pastebin.com/taQwaTV6
>
> Anybody got a decent place to upload that? it's my notes on the MS650-AA,
> and more generally the KA650 CMCTL memory subsystem.
>
> Includes my theory of operation of the CMCTL, the organization of memory,
> the ECC equations (kinda, the info is there to derive them), explanations
> of the signals on the memory bus, and most importantly, a list of which
> bits and RAM regions correspond to the 312 DRAMs on the board.
>

Sounds ideal for the Computer History Wiki: 
http://gunkies.org/wiki/Main_Page.


Antonio



-- 
Antonio Carlini
antonio at acarlini.com


From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 13:10:07 2019
From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 13:10:07 -0500
Subject: Two AT&T Unix PC/3B1/7300 systems available
Message-ID: <4b4839a63f6620ac8f2311abf618fb74@yahoo.com>

I have two AT&T Unix PCs that I am offering up to interested parties as 
described below:

1) AT&T Unix PC with the standard 67 MB HDD, this is the base system and 
three button mouse. The right arrow key on the keyboard is broken but 
the key cap is still included. This unit is also missing the keyboard 
cable though I should have it around somewhere and so it might turn up 
at some point at which time I'd send it along. It has been several years 
since this was last powered on and I don't recall if there are any 
passwords or what they might be so you may have to hack your way into 
the system. Had UNIX System V installed but don't recall what other 
software may be installed as well. Sold as is.

2) AT&T Unix PC. This unit comes in the original box, with keyboard and 
mouse and the following documentation:
    a) AT&T Unix PC Owner's Manual
    b) AT&T Unix PC Getting Started Manual
    c) AT&T Unix System V Utilities Manual
    d) AT&T Unix PC Communications Management Manual
    e) AT&T Unit PC System Software
As with the above system, it has been a while since it was last powered 
up and I don't recall if there were any passwords or what so may need to 
hack into the OS. Also not sure what software was installed besides the 
OS. Sold as is.

I believe I may have some more documentation around but haven't located 
it yet, if I do discover it I will offer to send it along to anyone who 
picks up these systems.

If you need any other info please let me know and I'll send it along. 
Will entertain any offers at all and prefer local pickup but I am fine 
with packing and shipping if you pay for it.

I'm offering them up to the list first though if there isn't any 
interest here will possibly offer on eBay or if someone knows other good 
places to list systems please let me know. Would like to move them out. 
Will also have several other systems for sale/trade/haul away very soon 
as I am clearing out a lot of stuff.

Best regards,
David Williams

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Jun 18 13:29:43 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 14:29:43 -0400
Subject: Two AT&T Unix PC/3B1/7300 systems available
In-Reply-To: <4b4839a63f6620ac8f2311abf618fb74@yahoo.com>
References: <4b4839a63f6620ac8f2311abf618fb74@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufSBedxo4J1evL_k3+AOLC_nSi50JBuQ3jDE=Lfqt+kRg@mail.gmail.com>

where are you?  I am interested if you're near to Philadelphia --
Washington DC corridor
Bill Deg

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 2:10 PM David Williams via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I have two AT&T Unix PCs that I am offering up to interested parties as
> described below:
>
> 1) AT&T Unix PC with the standard 67 MB HDD, this is the base system and
> three button mouse. The right arrow key on the keyboard is broken but
> the key cap is still included. This unit is also missing the keyboard
> cable though I should have it around somewhere and so it might turn up
> at some point at which time I'd send it along. It has been several years
> since this was last powered on and I don't recall if there are any
> passwords or what they might be so you may have to hack your way into
> the system. Had UNIX System V installed but don't recall what other
> software may be installed as well. Sold as is.
>
> 2) AT&T Unix PC. This unit comes in the original box, with keyboard and
> mouse and the following documentation:
>     a) AT&T Unix PC Owner's Manual
>     b) AT&T Unix PC Getting Started Manual
>     c) AT&T Unix System V Utilities Manual
>     d) AT&T Unix PC Communications Management Manual
>     e) AT&T Unit PC System Software
> As with the above system, it has been a while since it was last powered
> up and I don't recall if there were any passwords or what so may need to
> hack into the OS. Also not sure what software was installed besides the
> OS. Sold as is.
>
> I believe I may have some more documentation around but haven't located
> it yet, if I do discover it I will offer to send it along to anyone who
> picks up these systems.
>
> If you need any other info please let me know and I'll send it along.
> Will entertain any offers at all and prefer local pickup but I am fine
> with packing and shipping if you pay for it.
>
> I'm offering them up to the list first though if there isn't any
> interest here will possibly offer on eBay or if someone knows other good
> places to list systems please let me know. Would like to move them out.
> Will also have several other systems for sale/trade/haul away very soon
> as I am clearing out a lot of stuff.
>
> Best regards,
> David Williams
>

From cmhanson at eschatologist.net  Tue Jun 18 13:41:48 2019
From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 11:41:48 -0700
Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer Article
In-Reply-To: <ca6692a0-2723-47d4-f5fb-da4d4197389c@jbrain.com>
References: <ca6692a0-2723-47d4-f5fb-da4d4197389c@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <F8F6C055-E117-48F6-822B-FD17665065F3@eschatologist.net>

You might want to be explicit that the article is about the Apollo Guidance Computer, not about Apollo Computer the workstation manufacturer.

  ? Chris


From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 14:06:19 2019
From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 14:06:19 -0500
Subject: Two AT&T Unix PC/3B1/7300 systems available
In-Reply-To: <4b4839a63f6620ac8f2311abf618fb74@yahoo.com>
References: <4b4839a63f6620ac8f2311abf618fb74@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3f4fce072e0db8d9727329598a411a0d@yahoo.com>

Sorry for the brain fart, just so much going on that I forgot to mention 
that these are located in Houston, TX.

Best regards,
David Williams

On 2019-06-18 13:10, David Williams via cctalk wrote:
> I have two AT&T Unix PCs that I am offering up to interested parties
> as described below:
> 
> 1) AT&T Unix PC with the standard 67 MB HDD, this is the base system
> and three button mouse. The right arrow key on the keyboard is broken
> but the key cap is still included. This unit is also missing the
> keyboard cable though I should have it around somewhere and so it
> might turn up at some point at which time I'd send it along. It has
> been several years since this was last powered on and I don't recall
> if there are any passwords or what they might be so you may have to
> hack your way into the system. Had UNIX System V installed but don't
> recall what other software may be installed as well. Sold as is.
> 
> 2) AT&T Unix PC. This unit comes in the original box, with keyboard
> and mouse and the following documentation:
>    a) AT&T Unix PC Owner's Manual
>    b) AT&T Unix PC Getting Started Manual
>    c) AT&T Unix System V Utilities Manual
>    d) AT&T Unix PC Communications Management Manual
>    e) AT&T Unit PC System Software
> As with the above system, it has been a while since it was last
> powered up and I don't recall if there were any passwords or what so
> may need to hack into the OS. Also not sure what software was
> installed besides the OS. Sold as is.
> 
> I believe I may have some more documentation around but haven't
> located it yet, if I do discover it I will offer to send it along to
> anyone who picks up these systems.
> 
> If you need any other info please let me know and I'll send it along.
> Will entertain any offers at all and prefer local pickup but I am fine
> with packing and shipping if you pay for it.
> 
> I'm offering them up to the list first though if there isn't any
> interest here will possibly offer on eBay or if someone knows other
> good places to list systems please let me know. Would like to move
> them out. Will also have several other systems for sale/trade/haul
> away very soon as I am clearing out a lot of stuff.
> 
> Best regards,
> David Williams

From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net  Tue Jun 18 15:35:17 2019
From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 15:35:17 -0500
Subject: Apollo Computer Article
In-Reply-To: <578208267.8564.1560871772156@email.ionos.com>
References: <20190618152408.2076118C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <578208267.8564.1560871772156@email.ionos.com>
Message-ID: <2F28E13D-04DE-49A4-95AB-10A4A53B0560@lunar-tokyo.net>


> On Jun 18, 2019, at 10:29 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> This site has TONS of stuff, including (links to) much original documentation.  There are also copies of actual flight software that can be run on the simulator.
> https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/

There is also a spaceflight simulator add-on that has that emulator and the software embedded into it, so you can have the actual software do what it was intended to:
http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/Main_Page <http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/Main_Page>

(Full Disclosure: I am the maintainer-by-default)


From ryan at diskfutility.com  Tue Jun 18 19:08:40 2019
From: ryan at diskfutility.com (Ryan Eisworth)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 19:08:40 -0500
Subject: Two AT&T Unix PC/3B1/7300 systems available
In-Reply-To: <3f4fce072e0db8d9727329598a411a0d@yahoo.com>
References: <4b4839a63f6620ac8f2311abf618fb74@yahoo.com>
 <3f4fce072e0db8d9727329598a411a0d@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <F601F5A8-BF99-46D0-94B4-8F4D740C91E8@diskfutility.com>

Hi David,

I'm in the Houston area, and would *love* to get these! I have been searching for a 3B1 for a long time.

Best regards,
Ryan

> On Jun 18, 2019, at 2:06 PM, David Williams via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Sorry for the brain fart, just so much going on that I forgot to mention that these are located in Houston, TX.
> 
> Best regards,
> David Williams
> 
> On 2019-06-18 13:10, David Williams via cctalk wrote:
>> I have two AT&T Unix PCs that I am offering up to interested parties
>> as described below:
>> 1) AT&T Unix PC with the standard 67 MB HDD, this is the base system
>> and three button mouse. The right arrow key on the keyboard is broken
>> but the key cap is still included. This unit is also missing the
>> keyboard cable though I should have it around somewhere and so it
>> might turn up at some point at which time I'd send it along. It has
>> been several years since this was last powered on and I don't recall
>> if there are any passwords or what they might be so you may have to
>> hack your way into the system. Had UNIX System V installed but don't
>> recall what other software may be installed as well. Sold as is.
>> 2) AT&T Unix PC. This unit comes in the original box, with keyboard
>> and mouse and the following documentation:
>>   a) AT&T Unix PC Owner's Manual
>>   b) AT&T Unix PC Getting Started Manual
>>   c) AT&T Unix System V Utilities Manual
>>   d) AT&T Unix PC Communications Management Manual
>>   e) AT&T Unit PC System Software
>> As with the above system, it has been a while since it was last
>> powered up and I don't recall if there were any passwords or what so
>> may need to hack into the OS. Also not sure what software was
>> installed besides the OS. Sold as is.
>> I believe I may have some more documentation around but haven't
>> located it yet, if I do discover it I will offer to send it along to
>> anyone who picks up these systems.
>> If you need any other info please let me know and I'll send it along.
>> Will entertain any offers at all and prefer local pickup but I am fine
>> with packing and shipping if you pay for it.
>> I'm offering them up to the list first though if there isn't any
>> interest here will possibly offer on eBay or if someone knows other
>> good places to list systems please let me know. Would like to move
>> them out. Will also have several other systems for sale/trade/haul
>> away very soon as I am clearing out a lot of stuff.
>> Best regards,
>> David Williams


From steven at malikoff.com  Tue Jun 18 19:10:52 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (Steve Malikoff)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 10:10:52 +1000
Subject: Missing posts in archive and no Subject: line
In-Reply-To: <20190617181857.1F98518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190617181857.1F98518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4d4ee32e1f3df7296f607309fc3c0248.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Noel said

> I'm not sure what happened, but I note the next post had no Subject: line,
> and I'm wondering if that caused it. So best to make sure your posts have
> Subject: lines.
>
> 	Noel

When I posted the bit about the 360 + car photo the other day, I had a subject
line ready to go and I thought I had pasted it into the Subject, but could have
pasted into the wrong field before I hit the Submit. We've all done this I'm sure.

It soon bounced back to me from the cctalk list manager but I was a little surprised
it had made it to the list with a (no subject). Now the interesting thing is, my
message is available in the June archive, but Lawrence's followup with the
Re: (no subject) title wasn't processed by the list and as such there is no clickable
link to his reply there, only his name:
http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/thread.html

Steve.



From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 20:04:42 2019
From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 20:04:42 -0500
Subject: Two AT&T Unix PC/3B1/7300 systems available - claimed
In-Reply-To: <3f4fce072e0db8d9727329598a411a0d@yahoo.com>
References: <4b4839a63f6620ac8f2311abf618fb74@yahoo.com>
 <3f4fce072e0db8d9727329598a411a0d@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8ae1a26e0de7c05519e41627c22a7278@yahoo.com>

Just want to let everyone know both Unix PCs have been claimed.

Best regards,
David

On 2019-06-18 14:06, David Williams via cctalk wrote:
> Sorry for the brain fart, just so much going on that I forgot to
> mention that these are located in Houston, TX.
> 
> Best regards,
> David Williams
> 
> On 2019-06-18 13:10, David Williams via cctalk wrote:
>> I have two AT&T Unix PCs that I am offering up to interested parties
>> as described below:
>> 
>> 1) AT&T Unix PC with the standard 67 MB HDD, this is the base system
>> and three button mouse. The right arrow key on the keyboard is broken
>> but the key cap is still included. This unit is also missing the
>> keyboard cable though I should have it around somewhere and so it
>> might turn up at some point at which time I'd send it along. It has
>> been several years since this was last powered on and I don't recall
>> if there are any passwords or what they might be so you may have to
>> hack your way into the system. Had UNIX System V installed but don't
>> recall what other software may be installed as well. Sold as is.
>> 
>> 2) AT&T Unix PC. This unit comes in the original box, with keyboard
>> and mouse and the following documentation:
>>    a) AT&T Unix PC Owner's Manual
>>    b) AT&T Unix PC Getting Started Manual
>>    c) AT&T Unix System V Utilities Manual
>>    d) AT&T Unix PC Communications Management Manual
>>    e) AT&T Unit PC System Software
>> As with the above system, it has been a while since it was last
>> powered up and I don't recall if there were any passwords or what so
>> may need to hack into the OS. Also not sure what software was
>> installed besides the OS. Sold as is.
>> 
>> I believe I may have some more documentation around but haven't
>> located it yet, if I do discover it I will offer to send it along to
>> anyone who picks up these systems.
>> 
>> If you need any other info please let me know and I'll send it along.
>> Will entertain any offers at all and prefer local pickup but I am fine
>> with packing and shipping if you pay for it.
>> 
>> I'm offering them up to the list first though if there isn't any
>> interest here will possibly offer on eBay or if someone knows other
>> good places to list systems please let me know. Would like to move
>> them out. Will also have several other systems for sale/trade/haul
>> away very soon as I am clearing out a lot of stuff.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> David Williams

From useddec at gmail.com  Tue Jun 18 21:16:35 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 21:16:35 -0500
Subject: PDP 11/15
Message-ID: <CACwhfuP=sCJuz1-npggRrWvFrZpqWp69QVGYtVQHtxkUoKjKmg@mail.gmail.com>

I bought a large package of DEC gear last year and it came with a PDP
11/15. I have no need for this classic, and put it on the list. A few
people responded, but because of my problems, I never followed up with
them.

For those who responded, I apologize for dropping the ball. If anyone is
interested in it, please contact me off list.

BTW, I have started on pulling a few things out of the warehouse.

Thanks, Paul

From raywjewhurst at gmail.com  Tue Jun 18 22:07:55 2019
From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 23:07:55 -0400
Subject: Wanting to get my first classic computer
Message-ID: <CAMFEAADc=D2=+G39JCtLt6=fFueNWQa-wEK3cVgvgQyU5Gm+6w@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all, I have been a student of computer history for years but have
only learned how to use classic machines vicariously through emulation.  I
would really like to get my own classic computer but I don't know where to
begin.  For one, I am on a very limited income and two I don't have a lot
of space and finally I don't have much knowledge on the finer points of the
older hardware i.e. terminals networking, etc.  I would really like a
Vaxstation but I have also considered a '90s workstation such as an SGI
Indy or a SparcStation.  I am pretty fluent in both VMS and Unix so any of
those would work.  So where do I look besides e-Bay?  I see some available
here but none near me.  I'm in the Detroit area.  Any advice would be
appreciated.  I do know that I do now want a Mac or old PC.  I would like
something more exotic.  (Although it might me neat to own a Rainbow.)

Thanks

Ray

From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 18 22:15:03 2019
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 03:15:03 +0000
Subject: PDP 11/15
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuP=sCJuz1-npggRrWvFrZpqWp69QVGYtVQHtxkUoKjKmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuP=sCJuz1-npggRrWvFrZpqWp69QVGYtVQHtxkUoKjKmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR06MB2591A7BE0206F7E35C70C12BBAE50@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Paul,
That is so cool!
How much space would it take?
That is my first computer (outside of timesharing and Z-80 homebrew).
My first job was on the PDP-15 to transcribe the APOLLO analog range tapes of the lunar experiments, primarily the seismometer moonquake data for the University of Texas Geophysics Lab (they designed the seismometers).

The machine was a pretty good wall, 4-5 racks.  On the other side of the room were the FM/Direct Bell and Howell analog range tape players and demodulators.
I ran this stuff all night long, hanging tapes, using the scope to adjust analog heads for the best signal and transcribe to the digital tape.
NASA was not interested in this stuff anymore, they were onto Skylab.  The ALSEP lunar stations were TEG powered and would go on for decades transmitting, probably still are.  All we got was freetime gratis from the range stations to point at the moon and hang a tape, the data was always bad and a challenge to tweak heads the best we could.

We had a Versatec electrostatic plotter to output the continuous seismic record as I was decoding the tapes.
Anytime there was an 'event' on the plotter, I had Dr. Yosio Nakamura's home number to call him in and take a look.

Many nights, we re tweaked heads, to get the last bits of clean seismometer data.

Randy
Trivia: As I hung a tape out of sequence once, Fortran coders fixed that next day.  Next time it happened, the TTY chatters, RANDY! DIDN'T YOU ALREADY ENTER GMT JULIAN DATE XXX:XXX:XXX
It was a all night job alone in the computer room, and I am listening  to Foghat between tape hangs and alignment.


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Paul Anderson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 7:16 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; cctech at vax-11.org
Subject: PDP 11/15

I bought a large package of DEC gear last year and it came with a PDP
11/15. I have no need for this classic, and put it on the list. A few
people responded, but because of my problems, I never followed up with
them.

For those who responded, I apologize for dropping the ball. If anyone is
interested in it, please contact me off list.

BTW, I have started on pulling a few things out of the warehouse.

Thanks, Paul

From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Jun 18 22:33:38 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 20:33:38 -0700
Subject: PDP 11/15
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB2591A7BE0206F7E35C70C12BBAE50@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CACwhfuP=sCJuz1-npggRrWvFrZpqWp69QVGYtVQHtxkUoKjKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR06MB2591A7BE0206F7E35C70C12BBAE50@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <92f8c54f-fa6c-e17d-5dae-2586fc403ed2@bitsavers.org>



On 6/18/19 8:15 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
> Paul,
> That is so cool!
> How much space would it take?

10.5" of rack space

it is a PDP-11 model 15 (first generation)



From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Jun 18 22:43:31 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 20:43:31 -0700
Subject: Teletype 5620 schematics
Message-ID: <2fb8a06d-face-80dd-1f1c-50b05018d5b5@bitsavers.org>

came across these this eve, probably only of interest to Seth, since he has one
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/att/5620/schematic


From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Tue Jun 18 22:49:33 2019
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 20:49:33 -0700
Subject: Looking for a Intel multibus 88/30...
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB56085552DB3BF6ACC2087E9EA3EA0@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <20190617133958.52b177da@asrock>
 <BYAPR01MB56085552DB3BF6ACC2087E9EA3EA0@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <20190618204933.425602f8@asrock>

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 05:24:04 +0000
dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Lyle
>  What is a 88/45? I look up the 310 systems on the web but none
> mention 88/45.

Good catch, Dwight! It was a typo. I have two 88/45 boards and don't
need more. FYI, here's a link describing the 88/45:
http://bit.ly/2N6zKGe

Here's the description of the iSBC 88/30 that I NEED in the maintenance
manual for the System 310:
http://bit.ly/2MWMij5

> Is the PAL for address decoding or something more complicated?

Not sure. Likely for address decoding but I haven't tracked down
what else it might do. Another System 310 restorer had the identical
symptoms and issues with his 310. To be more specific: The system
begins startup and then halts (run light off) after about a second of
running. The hardware manuals says that error is either an iSBC error
or DMA hanging the system. I pulled all the DMA I/O cards from the
system to make sure it wasn't DMA...

Repeating the CORRECTION: I NEED AN iSBC 88/30!!!

Thanks again, Dwight!!!

Cheers,
Lyle
______________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Lyle
> Bickley via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, June 17,
> 2019 1:39 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Looking for a Intel multibus 88/45... (minor corrections...)
> 
> I'm in the process of restoring an Intel 310 system. I had it working
> to the point where it was trying to boot - when the 88/45 processor
> began to fail intermittently and then solidly. My debugging seems to
> indicate that the problem is in a PLD - which is a serious bummer.
> 
> I have preserved the ROMS (which have built-in diagnostics/debugging
> and boot capability for both floppy and Winchester hard disks) as
> files. I will make these ROM files available to Al for posting on
> bitsavers.
> 
> If someone on this list has an Intel 88/45 (or Intel 310) who would be
> willing to part with it, please contact me off list. I can to either
> do a trade or cash purchase...
> 
> Cheers,
> Lyle
> 
> --
> 73   NM6Y
> Bickley Consulting West Inc.
> https://bickleywest.com
> 
> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"



-- 
73   NM6Y
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
https://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From imp at bsdimp.com  Tue Jun 18 22:53:41 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 20:53:41 -0700
Subject: Wanting to get my first classic computer
In-Reply-To: <CAMFEAADc=D2=+G39JCtLt6=fFueNWQa-wEK3cVgvgQyU5Gm+6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMFEAADc=D2=+G39JCtLt6=fFueNWQa-wEK3cVgvgQyU5Gm+6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfqNAAjxx=aW3H62VuomPJy_ofQbY1WWv2UoiXBZsvj7ug@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 8:08 PM Ray Jewhurst via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hello all, I have been a student of computer history for years but have
> only learned how to use classic machines vicariously through emulation.  I
> would really like to get my own classic computer but I don't know where to
> begin.  For one, I am on a very limited income and two I don't have a lot
> of space and finally I don't have much knowledge on the finer points of the
> older hardware i.e. terminals networking, etc.  I would really like a
> Vaxstation but I have also considered a '90s workstation such as an SGI
> Indy or a SparcStation.  I am pretty fluent in both VMS and Unix so any of
> those would work.  So where do I look besides e-Bay?  I see some available
> here but none near me.  I'm in the Detroit area.  Any advice would be
> appreciated.  I do know that I do now want a Mac or old PC.  I would like
> something more exotic.  (Although it might me neat to own a Rainbow.)


All the cool kids had DEC Rainbows... though to be honest, maybe I'm biased
since the DEC Rainbow 100B was my first computer and I'm currently on a DEC
Rainbow VENIX boondoggle trying too reconstruct frmo v7 and sys III sources
now available the original Venix 86R source code... :)

Though I'm sure all that other stuff is cool too...

Warner

P.S. I had a VMS Forever bumper sticker on my car for a few years thanks to
an ex-girlfriend that knew me tooo well :)

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Jun 18 23:55:38 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 00:55:38 -0400
Subject: VENIX on Rainbow (was Re: Wanting to get my first classic computer)
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfqNAAjxx=aW3H62VuomPJy_ofQbY1WWv2UoiXBZsvj7ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMFEAADc=D2=+G39JCtLt6=fFueNWQa-wEK3cVgvgQyU5Gm+6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqNAAjxx=aW3H62VuomPJy_ofQbY1WWv2UoiXBZsvj7ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=6H6eFHKo+9mMaY5N0p=+Ri1qNqOxjJyv73_JHZNi3bw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 11:53 PM Warner Losh via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 8:08 PM Ray Jewhurst via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > Hello all, I have been a student of computer history for years...
> > I would like
> > something more exotic.  (Although it might me neat to own a Rainbow.)
>
>
> All the cool kids had DEC Rainbows...

When Rainbows were new I remember being horrified at the cost and how
much of a PITA the RX50 was.  I also had no need to run CP/M myself,
so I was never a target customer anyway.

Turn the page and flash forward 35 years and I just got a couple of
Rainbows to use as heavy VT100s and to run CP/M.

> ... I'm currently on a DEC
> Rainbow VENIX boondoggle trying too reconstruct frmo v7 and sys III sources
> now available the original Venix 86R source code... :)

Interesting.  I have VENIX on a Professional 350 (it was one of the
machines I had on display for VCF East).  I haven't tried fiddling
with VENIX on a Rainbow, though I did know it existed.

Why the reconstruction?  Trying to walk the path or is there some
issue with getting original install disks or getting those disks to
load?

Mostly curious because as a long-time UNIX programmer, I do find some
of the odder UNIX implementations interesting (and certainly more
interesting to me than Yet Another DOS Box).

-ethan

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 18 23:56:14 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 04:56:14 +0000
Subject: Looking for a Intel multibus 88/30...
In-Reply-To: <20190618204933.425602f8@asrock>
References: <20190617133958.52b177da@asrock>
 <BYAPR01MB56085552DB3BF6ACC2087E9EA3EA0@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>,
 <20190618204933.425602f8@asrock>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB56083C95DD488F95FDE67124A3E50@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Maybe a iSBC 86/30?
I don't have any of these. All I have are a couple 8080 iSBC boards.
Dwight

________________________________
From: Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 8:49 PM
To: dwight
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Looking for a Intel multibus 88/30...

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 05:24:04 +0000
dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Lyle
>  What is a 88/45? I look up the 310 systems on the web but none
> mention 88/45.

Good catch, Dwight! It was a typo. I have two 88/45 boards and don't
need more. FYI, here's a link describing the 88/45:
http://bit.ly/2N6zKGe

Here's the description of the iSBC 88/30 that I NEED in the maintenance
manual for the System 310:
http://bit.ly/2MWMij5

> Is the PAL for address decoding or something more complicated?

Not sure. Likely for address decoding but I haven't tracked down
what else it might do. Another System 310 restorer had the identical
symptoms and issues with his 310. To be more specific: The system
begins startup and then halts (run light off) after about a second of
running. The hardware manuals says that error is either an iSBC error
or DMA hanging the system. I pulled all the DMA I/O cards from the
system to make sure it wasn't DMA...

Repeating the CORRECTION: I NEED AN iSBC 88/30!!!

Thanks again, Dwight!!!

Cheers,
Lyle
______________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Lyle
> Bickley via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, June 17,
> 2019 1:39 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Looking for a Intel multibus 88/45... (minor corrections...)
>
> I'm in the process of restoring an Intel 310 system. I had it working
> to the point where it was trying to boot - when the 88/45 processor
> began to fail intermittently and then solidly. My debugging seems to
> indicate that the problem is in a PLD - which is a serious bummer.
>
> I have preserved the ROMS (which have built-in diagnostics/debugging
> and boot capability for both floppy and Winchester hard disks) as
> files. I will make these ROM files available to Al for posting on
> bitsavers.
>
> If someone on this list has an Intel 88/45 (or Intel 310) who would be
> willing to part with it, please contact me off list. I can to either
> do a trade or cash purchase...
>
> Cheers,
> Lyle
>
> --
> 73   NM6Y
> Bickley Consulting West Inc.
> https://bickleywest.com
>
> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"



--
73   NM6Y
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
https://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From cctalk at snarc.net  Tue Jun 18 16:45:56 2019
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 17:45:56 -0400
Subject: Whose site is 9track.net?
Message-ID: <d3cd6846-0e09-1812-eaf4-ba755406796d@snarc.net>

Does anyone know who owns 9track.net? I couldn't find any contact 
information there.


From raywjewhurst at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 00:07:36 2019
From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 01:07:36 -0400
Subject: Whose site is 9track.net?
In-Reply-To: <d3cd6846-0e09-1812-eaf4-ba755406796d@snarc.net>
References: <d3cd6846-0e09-1812-eaf4-ba755406796d@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <CAMFEAADpr55PBbBQ4KFiabGVfte4hpEARWbjBufXiuipLyDY6w@mail.gmail.com>

It belongs to Matt Burke.  He is very active in the simh mailing list.

Ray

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:58 AM Evan Koblentz via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Does anyone know who owns 9track.net? I couldn't find any contact
> information there.
>
>

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 00:47:51 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 01:47:51 -0400
Subject: Teletype 5620 schematics
In-Reply-To: <2fb8a06d-face-80dd-1f1c-50b05018d5b5@bitsavers.org>
References: <2fb8a06d-face-80dd-1f1c-50b05018d5b5@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAALmimko6DUhs=Sj2xhSsLXPv85OpPNvRnnRUUJFou+-LtqBjw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 1:00 AM Al Kossow via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> came across these this eve, probably only of interest to Seth, since he has one
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/att/5620/schematic

I have one too (from a friend who used to work in the Columbus Bell
Labs Operating System Group (cbosg)).  I found the read-through to be
quite illuminating, especially the detail on the keyboard circuit
(4800 bps TTL levels off one channel of the DUART).  I do have a
keyboard but this info makes it simple to contemplate a keyboard
adapter for those that do not.

Thanks for posting this, Al.

-ethan

From silent700 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 01:18:24 2019
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 01:18:24 -0500
Subject: Teletype 5620 schematics
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimko6DUhs=Sj2xhSsLXPv85OpPNvRnnRUUJFou+-LtqBjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2fb8a06d-face-80dd-1f1c-50b05018d5b5@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimko6DUhs=Sj2xhSsLXPv85OpPNvRnnRUUJFou+-LtqBjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SEsqOaMERRrbgrJKe6-Nm9MTu4V_tWgmJFXdqdkZAU-qg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:48 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Thanks for posting this, Al.

Seconded.  I've got one with the keyboard and ladybug mouse.  Worked
many years ago - and I'll never know if it has stopped working if I
don't plug it in again!

From derschjo at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 01:31:20 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 23:31:20 -0700
Subject: Teletype 5620 schematics
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SEsqOaMERRrbgrJKe6-Nm9MTu4V_tWgmJFXdqdkZAU-qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2fb8a06d-face-80dd-1f1c-50b05018d5b5@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimko6DUhs=Sj2xhSsLXPv85OpPNvRnnRUUJFou+-LtqBjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SEsqOaMERRrbgrJKe6-Nm9MTu4V_tWgmJFXdqdkZAU-qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLY2yC-a6TB3X3q9Kr2YHCYVoCrshZkGs3LWNJZg3r0sjA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 11:18 PM Jason T via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:48 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > Thanks for posting this, Al.
>
> Seconded.  I've got one with the keyboard and ladybug mouse.  Worked
> many years ago - and I'll never know if it has stopped working if I
> don't plug it in again!
>


Just a general bit of advice (which applies to many other systems discussed
here) for you 5620 owners -- the 5620 has a battery in it, soldered to the
logic board.  If you haven't already, remove it before it leaks and
destroys everything.

- Josh

From ethan at 757.org  Wed Jun 19 06:52:01 2019
From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 07:52:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Wanting to get my first classic computer
In-Reply-To: <CAMFEAADc=D2=+G39JCtLt6=fFueNWQa-wEK3cVgvgQyU5Gm+6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMFEAADc=D2=+G39JCtLt6=fFueNWQa-wEK3cVgvgQyU5Gm+6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906190751260.10932@users.757.org>

> those would work.  So where do I look besides e-Bay?  I see some available

Post wanted ad on craigslist. Wait, then they will come to you.

 			- Ethan

--
: Ethan O'Toole



From cctalk at snarc.net  Wed Jun 19 01:03:16 2019
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 02:03:16 -0400
Subject: Whose site is 9track.net?
In-Reply-To: <CAMFEAADpr55PBbBQ4KFiabGVfte4hpEARWbjBufXiuipLyDY6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d3cd6846-0e09-1812-eaf4-ba755406796d@snarc.net>
 <CAMFEAADpr55PBbBQ4KFiabGVfte4hpEARWbjBufXiuipLyDY6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <37e3d095-06af-e718-88f9-be0f3321b1c3@snarc.net>


> It belongs to Matt Burke.? He is very active in the simh mailing list.
Thanks

From ronan.scaife at dcu.ie  Wed Jun 19 04:20:10 2019
From: ronan.scaife at dcu.ie (Ronan Scaife)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 10:20:10 +0100
Subject: CC users in Ireland
Message-ID: <b4132dc9-eca0-be7c-2a94-ef31bf623175@dcu.ie>

Dear All,

At 03:30 PM 17/06/2019 +0100, Ronan Scaife wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> I am particularly interested to make contact with Ireland-based
> classic computer collectors or users.

on 18 June 2019, Guy Dunphy wrote:

> Message: 8 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:34:11 +1000 From: Guy Dunphy 
> <guykd at optusnet.com.au> To: ronan.scaife at dcu.ie, "General Discussion: 
> On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: 
> irish cctech subscribers Message-ID: 
> <3.0.6.32.20190618093411.011eaad8 at mail.optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: 
> text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Ronan, I know you meant 'in 
> Ireland.' But I can't resist: I'm of Irish ancestry, though born and 
> residing in Sydney Australia. Also "My particular interest is in DEC 
> pdp-8 and pdp11 machines." Never thought I'd actually have any, until 
> unexpected events of 2018 and ongoing. Now so far I have two PDP-8/S 
> to restore ( http://everist.org/NobLog/20181104_PDP-8S.htm ) and two 
> PDP-11: Rack 1: PDP 11/44 and one RLO2 diskpack drive. Rack 2: PDP 
> 11/34, two RLO2 diskpack drives, and one RK05 disk pack drive. Seems 
> to be a complete, intact system. I have the side panels, various 
> blanking panels, and assorted documentation. Still making arrangements 
> for a long-term space to set them up and work on them. Regards, Guy 
> Dunphy
>> My particular interest is in DEC pdp-8 and pdp11 machines.

Dear Guy,

good to hear from you!

My interest stems from the generosity of DEC Galway, Ireland, who helped 
start my (DSP, speech) research career
in the early 1980s with a generous donation of 2x 11/34s with RL02 and 
RX02.

I also have a MINC (laboratory instrumented 11/23) from Trinity College 
Dublin.

Quite recently, we acquired a pdp8/e (made in Galway) with RK05 and PC04 
from Dundalk Institute of Technology.

I haven't dared to power this up, but a few of my students have worked 
on a replica pdp8/e front panel patched

into a simh emulation on a PC.

I look forward to reading your blog.

My medium term plan is to interest the National Museum or equivalent in 
a section on (especially Irish-made)

technology, so the email was primarily addressed to people on the island 
of Ireland. However, most of what I

have learned over the years has been from guys around the world like you 
who are so generous with their

information.

Best Wishes,

Ronan Scaife

-- 


-- 
*

*S?anadh R?omhphoist/Email Disclaimer*

*T? an r?omhphost seo agus aon 
chomhad a sheoltar leis faoi r?n agus is lena ?s?id ag an seola? agus sin 
amh?in ?. Is f?idir tuilleadh a l?amh anseo.? 
<https://sites.google.com/view/seanadh-riomhphoist>*

*This e-mail and any 
files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use 
by the addressee. Read more here. 
<https://sites.google.com/view/dcu-email-disclaimer>*



*

-- 

 <https://www.facebook.com/DCU/> <https://twitter.com/DublinCityUni> 
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/dublin-city-university> 
<https://www.instagram.com/dublincityuniversity/?hl=en> 
<https://www.youtube.com/user/DublinCityUniversity>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Jun 19 09:31:53 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 10:31:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Wanting to get my first classic computer
Message-ID: <20190619143153.2AEF418C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Ray Jewhurst

    > I would really like to get my own classic computer but I don't know
    > where to begin.

Two questions you need to sort out in your mind, to decide, are i) do you
want something with a bit-mapped video screen, or are you happy with ASCII
serial line only, and ii) what are you prepared to do for mass storage.

E.g. if you really want video, you're probably looking at something like a
VAXStation or so; if ASCII will do you, a QBUS PDP-11 might be a good
start, as with patience eBay can yield a cheap chassis, CPU etc (although
in the last year or so the really cheap stuff seems to have dried up,
alas).

	Noel

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 10:23:18 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 11:23:18 -0400
Subject: Wanting to get my first classic computer
In-Reply-To: <20190619143153.2AEF418C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190619143153.2AEF418C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <a41edf8c-6978-9764-5096-a6caf6940cfd@gmail.com>

On 06/19/2019 10:31 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>     > From: Ray Jewhurst
> 
>     > I would really like to get my own classic computer but I don't know
>     > where to begin.
> 
> Two questions you need to sort out in your mind, to decide, are i) do you
> want something with a bit-mapped video screen, or are you happy with ASCII
> serial line only, and ii) what are you prepared to do for mass storage.
> 
> E.g. if you really want video, you're probably looking at something like a
> VAXStation or so; if ASCII will do you, a QBUS PDP-11 might be a good
> start, as with patience eBay can yield a cheap chassis, CPU etc (although
> in the last year or so the really cheap stuff seems to have dried up,
> alas).
> 
> 	Noel
> 

Ray,

I'd take that a level deeper.

And old machine is like an old car.  Parts will be needed,
they will come from various places including scrounging, parts
may be unobtainium (long gone) or those available are expensive.
You will have to do most of the work as most will not touch it.

I liken having old systems and keeping them going to be like
having an exotic pet that would do better in a zoo and isn't
warm and cuddly and might even bite!

The likelihood of finding something is high, however it may require
work to get it up and running.  The work maybe electronic repair,
finding and replacing disk drives, or finding software on suitable
media.  There is also potential for replacing board or repairing
them.  If you lucky enough to acquire a working system, the task of
keeping working is also there (spare cards, media to back up the disks
to and so on).

For VAXStation and the like disk drives are getting old and replacement
is not unlikely. Qbus PDP-11 come in a large array of flavors and you
need complete documents for what you may have and is likely not DEC
standard configuration so you need all the supplemental documents
for the alterations.  At the same time finding media to load a copy
of the OS is also something to consider.

Besides OS specific knowledge you will require hardware specific
knowledge lest you run in merry circles for a s simple issue.
This means obtaining the needed manuals and reading them, thanks
to many the information is on line.

In short real hardware comes with real issues to solve and often
the interfaces and media are not at all modern PC like.  I'd add
anything you know about PCs is unlikely to be helpful at best and
can lead one down an unproductive path as PCs and most older non-PC
machines tend to not be similar (other than being a computer).

Allison


From bobsmithofd at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 12:49:19 2019
From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 13:49:19 -0400
Subject: PDP 11/15
In-Reply-To: <92f8c54f-fa6c-e17d-5dae-2586fc403ed2@bitsavers.org>
References: <CACwhfuP=sCJuz1-npggRrWvFrZpqWp69QVGYtVQHtxkUoKjKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR06MB2591A7BE0206F7E35C70C12BBAE50@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <92f8c54f-fa6c-e17d-5dae-2586fc403ed2@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAHtNYbXw66BeH7cMBZPCmJRg=qvsiB8bUgp6WYUQ+_gE=P2sRA@mail.gmail.com>

IIRC, there are two models called //15.
The original, 10.5 high, an 11/20 with no power fail. We dold that to
Aeroflot with about 10 racks of periphs.
although I have never seen one, there have been refs to another more
modern unit, based on LSI=11 or later chip set,
so I wonder if it is one of those or the orig.
tks
bb

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 11:40 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 6/18/19 8:15 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
> > Paul,
> > That is so cool!
> > How much space would it take?
>
> 10.5" of rack space
>
> it is a PDP-11 model 15 (first generation)
>
>

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Jun 19 12:58:40 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 13:58:40 -0400
Subject: PDP 11/15
In-Reply-To: <CAHtNYbXw66BeH7cMBZPCmJRg=qvsiB8bUgp6WYUQ+_gE=P2sRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuP=sCJuz1-npggRrWvFrZpqWp69QVGYtVQHtxkUoKjKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR06MB2591A7BE0206F7E35C70C12BBAE50@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <92f8c54f-fa6c-e17d-5dae-2586fc403ed2@bitsavers.org>
 <CAHtNYbXw66BeH7cMBZPCmJRg=qvsiB8bUgp6WYUQ+_gE=P2sRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <97D631AD-B976-4AE6-A3E1-FEF9B4945C27@comcast.net>



> On Jun 19, 2019, at 1:49 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> IIRC, there are two models called //15.
> The original, 10.5 high, an 11/20 with no power fail. We dold that to
> Aeroflot with about 10 racks of periphs.
> although I have never seen one, there have been refs to another more
> modern unit, based on LSI=11 or later chip set,
> so I wonder if it is one of those or the orig.
> tks
> bb

That's odd, I only ever heard of an 11/15 as the 11/20 relabeled for OEM markets, the same way 11/05 and 11/10 are the same machine but different markets.  Power fail was an option on the 11/20 too, as I recall.  I suppose the different marketing might produce different sets of options, or different choices for what was "the standard package".

11/15 as a designation for an LSI based machine doesn't ring any bells at all.

	paul



From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 13:27:01 2019
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 12:27:01 -0600
Subject: Teletype 5620 schematics
In-Reply-To: <2fb8a06d-face-80dd-1f1c-50b05018d5b5@bitsavers.org>
References: <2fb8a06d-face-80dd-1f1c-50b05018d5b5@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRM8TiUHPMi1Q2rqkG3594Ot-MtxTAJYBLUuDkO+9S8nA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 9:43 PM Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> came across these this eve, probably only of interest to Seth, since he
> has one
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/att/5620/schematic
>

There's also a set here:
    http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/att/5620/

I have not compared them.

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Jun 19 13:56:26 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 14:56:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PDP 11/15
Message-ID: <20190619185626.15BB918C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Bob Smith

    > there have been refs to another more modern unit, based on LSI[-]11
    > or later chip set

I've never heard of that, and I wonder if DEC would really have released
a new product with the same name as an old one (the two PDP-11/10's
are different, as I'm not sure many of the first ones were sold, but
a ton of -11/15's were).

    > I wonder if it is one of those or the orig.

This one is one of the -11/20 type ones.


    > From: Paul Koning

    > I only ever heard of an 11/15 as the 11/20 relabeled for OEM
    > markets

According to the "pdp11/15/20/r20 processor handbook", 1972 edition (i.e.
the second edition of the -11/20 proc handbook), the /15 has (table on pg.
2) a "KC11" processor, which seems to be a KA11 with only a single
interrupt request line. (Maybe it has a replacement card for the M824,
with only a single interrupt line wired up?)

There's a 'KF11-A' option which upgrades it to multi-line (pg. 4), for
which there claims to be a manual (DEC-11-HKFA-D), but there are none
online, but from other traces online it does seem that some people had
to get and install it. So maybe the stuff in the proc manual isn't
just marketing wibble.

That same manual claims that power-fail restart was standard in the
KA11; it was an option for the KC11, the KP11-A.

	Noel

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 14:01:50 2019
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 15:01:50 -0400
Subject: PDP 11/15
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB2591A7BE0206F7E35C70C12BBAE50@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CACwhfuP=sCJuz1-npggRrWvFrZpqWp69QVGYtVQHtxkUoKjKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR06MB2591A7BE0206F7E35C70C12BBAE50@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfA+WSs4tY_Q54T6PTt6EMv5yMes3-qFqRyijBKrj-wkHg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 11:15 PM Randy Dawson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Paul,
> That is so cool!
> How much space would it take?
> That is my first computer (outside of timesharing and Z-80 homebrew).
> My first job was on the PDP-15 to transcribe the APOLLO analog range tapes
> of the lunar experiments, primarily the seismometer moonquake data for the
> University of Texas Geophysics Lab (they designed the seismometers).
>
> The machine was a pretty good wall, 4-5 racks.  On the other side of the
> room were the FM/Direct Bell and Howell analog range tape players and
> demodulators.
> I ran this stuff all night long, hanging tapes, using the scope to adjust
> analog heads for the best signal and transcribe to the digital tape.
> NASA was not interested in this stuff anymore, they were onto Skylab.  The
> ALSEP lunar stations were TEG powered and would go on for decades
> transmitting, probably still are.  All we got was freetime gratis from the
> range stations to point at the moon and hang a tape, the data was always
> bad and a challenge to tweak heads the best we could.
>
> We had a Versatec electrostatic plotter to output the continuous seismic
> record as I was decoding the tapes.
> Anytime there was an 'event' on the plotter, I had Dr. Yosio Nakamura's
> home number to call him in and take a look.
>
> Many nights, we re tweaked heads, to get the last bits of clean
> seismometer data.
>
> Randy
> Trivia: As I hung a tape out of sequence once, Fortran coders fixed that
> next day.  Next time it happened, the TTY chatters, RANDY! DIDN'T YOU
> ALREADY ENTER GMT JULIAN DATE XXX:XXX:XXX
> It was a all night job alone in the computer room, and I am listening  to
> Foghat between tape hangs and alignment.
>
>
>

You know, one of the reasons I'm still on here is for the anecdotes
and this is far and away the coolest anecdote I've read in quite some time!


Thanks for sharing, Randy; more, please!

From linimon at lonesome.com  Wed Jun 19 14:11:09 2019
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 19:11:09 +0000
Subject: PDP 11/15
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfA+WSs4tY_Q54T6PTt6EMv5yMes3-qFqRyijBKrj-wkHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuP=sCJuz1-npggRrWvFrZpqWp69QVGYtVQHtxkUoKjKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR06MB2591A7BE0206F7E35C70C12BBAE50@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAHYQbfA+WSs4tY_Q54T6PTt6EMv5yMes3-qFqRyijBKrj-wkHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190619191109.GB28087@lonesome.com>

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 03:01:50PM -0400, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote:
> You know, one of the reasons I'm still on here is for the anecdotes

Agreed!

mcl

From bear at typewritten.org  Wed Jun 19 13:15:10 2019
From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 11:15:10 -0700
Subject: vaxstation ii machine check & diags efficacy
Message-ID: <E2F1272F-DC27-414C-9458-C15E4DFFAFA8@typewritten.org>


It's a VAXstation II/GPX. I'm trying to install VMS 5.5 (from CD if it matters; there is a CMD CQD-200 or -220 as the only storage controller) and routinely getting machine check exceptions.

Standalone backup always boots. Sometimes I get an exception the moment I hit <enter> on a restore; sometimes in the middle of the restore, sometimes it runs to successful completion.

VMS never boots. Sometimes I get as far as the date prompt (I took out the battery), sometimes it gets a little farther, frequently it's before anything appears on the console at all. 

The exceptions booting VMS occur the same if I attach another disk with VMS 5.5 already installed; if I replace the KA630 and M7609 with a KA655 and M7622, it all seems to run fine.

The KA630 power-on diagnostics all pass, but... it smells like a memory fault to me. What are the odds there could be a memory fault that isn't caught by the diags?

ok
bear.

-- 
until further notice


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 14:30:30 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 15:30:30 -0400
Subject: PDP 11/15
In-Reply-To: <20190619191109.GB28087@lonesome.com>
References: <CACwhfuP=sCJuz1-npggRrWvFrZpqWp69QVGYtVQHtxkUoKjKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR06MB2591A7BE0206F7E35C70C12BBAE50@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAHYQbfA+WSs4tY_Q54T6PTt6EMv5yMes3-qFqRyijBKrj-wkHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190619191109.GB28087@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucqCeJm6xyqVpiWBL34znBVLFOtyRtraGXRfoqC13H90g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 3:11 PM Mark Linimon via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 03:01:50PM -0400, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote:
> > You know, one of the reasons I'm still on here is for the anecdotes
>
> Agreed!
>
> mcl
>

I am a big fan of bargain 11/15 too, that and the anecdotes of course.
b

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 14:36:48 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 12:36:48 -0700
Subject: vaxstation ii machine check & diags efficacy
In-Reply-To: <E2F1272F-DC27-414C-9458-C15E4DFFAFA8@typewritten.org>
References: <E2F1272F-DC27-414C-9458-C15E4DFFAFA8@typewritten.org>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLeLmo1qETxTSGnEe6=q295raaixoYSQCSnirMt3HfPzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:24 PM r.stricklin via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> It's a VAXstation II/GPX. I'm trying to install VMS 5.5 (from CD if it matters; there is a CMD CQD-200 or -220 as the only storage controller) and routinely getting machine check exceptions.
>
> Standalone backup always boots. Sometimes I get an exception the moment I hit <enter> on a restore; sometimes in the middle of the restore, sometimes it runs to successful completion.
>
> VMS never boots. Sometimes I get as far as the date prompt (I took out the battery), sometimes it gets a little farther, frequently it's before anything appears on the console at all.
>
> The exceptions booting VMS occur the same if I attach another disk with VMS 5.5 already installed; if I replace the KA630 and M7609 with a KA655 and M7622, it all seems to run fine.
>
> The KA630 power-on diagnostics all pass, but... it smells like a memory fault to me. What are the odds there could be a memory fault that isn't caught by the diags?
>
> ok
> bear.

Maybe try running the MDM (MicroVAX Diagnostic Monitor) diagnostics
and see if they detect any issues that the power-on diagnostics do not
detect.

I have a bootable image of this version, which you should be able to
'dd' to a disk you can then attach to your CMD CQD-220,

uVDOS V4.0 built on 23-mar-1993  12:01

MicroVAX Diagnostic Monitor    Release 139   Version V5.0

                  CONFIDENTIAL DIAGNOSTIC SOFTWARE
                           PROPERTY OF
                  DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION

   Use Authorized Only Pursuant to a Valid Right-to-use License

 Copyright (c) 1986, 1994
 Digital Equipment Corporation

From couryhouse at aol.com  Wed Jun 19 16:20:21 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 21:20:21 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: unix developed  on  11/20  with 20 on panel   or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
References: <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964@mail.yahoo.com>

unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?

Help - have a? nice? looking? 11/20? plus? a? weird analog? computer and? a? Nike guidance? gyro platform? for? AJAX (? 2? gyros loose? need? prints? to? rewire? correctly)? ? ? in? trade? for? and? extra? ribbon Mike? we? had.
so anyway today's? questions

-? bell labs? UNIX? machine? ?says? 11? or? 11/20
-anyone have schematics or wiring chart? for NIKE AJAX? Gyro Plantform?
Drop offlist? as? not? to? clutter? things
thanks? Ed#

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Jun 19 17:07:08 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 18:07:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Missing posts in archive and no Subject: line
Message-ID: <20190619220708.1BB7618C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Joe Zatarski joezatarski at gmail.com 

    > The posts you mentioned were sent to cctech. .. that list is
    > moderated .. You'll notice these posts are now in both archives. 

Ah, that could be it. I thought I'd found them in the Subject: thread
archive at the same time they weren't in the other, but maybe my memory is
faulty.

    > From: Eric Christopherson

    > the reply to the message headed "No subject" .. actually seems to
    > have a blank subject, as a result of which it doesn't seem to be
    > possible to even view it (since there's no link to click)! 

Which is how I discovered those messages which weren't (yet) in the
archive; I took the URL for the previous message, edited it to point to
the next message, and discovered the 'missing' ones. (Apparently the
list software makes messages available via the Web interface before
they've been approved and added to the archive.)

    > John H. Reinhardt

    > And now I know why your posts always break the threading in
    > Thunderbird...

Hey,I don't want my emailbox clogged up with this stuff! :-)

	Noel

From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed Jun 19 19:47:30 2019
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 17:47:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: VENIX on Rainbow (was Re: Wanting to get my first classic
 computer)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=6H6eFHKo+9mMaY5N0p=+Ri1qNqOxjJyv73_JHZNi3bw@mail.gmail.com> from
 Ethan Dicks via cctalk at "Jun 19, 19 00:55:38 am"
Message-ID: <201906200047.x5K0lU5221626970@floodgap.com>

> > ... I'm currently on a DEC
> > Rainbow VENIX boondoggle trying too reconstruct frmo v7 and sys III sources
> > now available the original Venix 86R source code... :)
> 
> Interesting.  I have VENIX on a Professional 350 (it was one of the
> machines I had on display for VCF East).  I haven't tried fiddling
> with VENIX on a Rainbow, though I did know it existed.

Venix/PRO on a 380 here. I like it. Thinking about ways to make it
primitively networked.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- there's a dance or two in the old dame yet. -- mehitabel -------------------

From bobsmithofd at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 20:23:03 2019
From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 21:23:03 -0400
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
In-Reply-To: <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAHtNYbUgfDz=ZbojA08y+OhRSyFPAeSCHw3ntEQRxsHgEiibTw@mail.gmail.com>

My recollection, Unix on the 11 started with the 20 but because of the
limited capabilties, it really was done on the /45.
The three rings or 3 execution levels were not supported on the
original machine.
bb

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 5:20 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
>
> Help - have a  nice  looking  11/20  plus  a  weird analog  computer and  a  Nike guidance  gyro platform  for  AJAX (  2  gyros loose  need  prints  to  rewire  correctly)      in  trade  for  and  extra  ribbon Mike  we  had.
> so anyway today's  questions
>
> -  bell labs  UNIX  machine   says  11  or  11/20
> -anyone have schematics or wiring chart  for NIKE AJAX  Gyro Plantform?
> Drop offlist  as  not  to  clutter  things
> thanks  Ed#

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 21:09:35 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 22:09:35 -0400
Subject: VENIX on Rainbow (was Re: Wanting to get my first classic
 computer)
In-Reply-To: <201906200047.x5K0lU5221626970@floodgap.com>
References: <CAALmim=6H6eFHKo+9mMaY5N0p=+Ri1qNqOxjJyv73_JHZNi3bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201906200047.x5K0lU5221626970@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmmPqX87O+f-34Yy5Cg1csPSTR4ZuJGmcaNu-cdy8rS1Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 8:47 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > Interesting.  I have VENIX on a Professional 350 (it was one of the
> > machines I had on display for VCF East).  I haven't tried fiddling
> > with VENIX on a Rainbow, though I did know it existed.
>
> Venix/PRO on a 380 here. I like it. Thinking about ways to make it
> primitively networked.

There is a DECNA, if you can find one.  It should work for 2.9BSD or
2.11BSD so it wouldn't be that hard to adapt to Venix, I'd wager.

Outside of that, SLIP/PPP?  UUCP?

-ethan

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Jun 19 21:11:31 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 21:11:31 -0500
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
In-Reply-To: <CAHtNYbUgfDz=ZbojA08y+OhRSyFPAeSCHw3ntEQRxsHgEiibTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAHtNYbUgfDz=ZbojA08y+OhRSyFPAeSCHw3ntEQRxsHgEiibTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5D0AEB53.7040206@pico-systems.com>

On 06/19/2019 08:23 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote:
> My recollection, Unix on the 11 started with the 20 but because of the
> limited capabilties, it really was done on the /45.
> The three rings or 3 execution levels were not supported on the
> original machine.
>
MMU and expanded memory would be a great help in a 
multi-user system.  The original PDP-11 with 56 KB of memory 
was pretty limited.  Great for DOS-11 and RT-11, but more 
complex OS'es needed more resources.

Jon

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 21:20:44 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 22:20:44 -0400
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
In-Reply-To: <CAHtNYbUgfDz=ZbojA08y+OhRSyFPAeSCHw3ntEQRxsHgEiibTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAHtNYbUgfDz=ZbojA08y+OhRSyFPAeSCHw3ntEQRxsHgEiibTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=D+vvRbP=VnQfjvSVJic_QBZ1Ek5Ajmyasv0+RiVPDHg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 9:23 PM Bob Smith via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> My recollection, Unix on the 11 started with the 20 but because of the
> limited capabilties, it really was done on the /45.

The good stuff, yes, but it was still recognizable on the 11/20...

https://github.com/jserv/unix-v1

> > unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?

Based on comments from Ken Thompson at his keynote at VCF East this
year, just "PDP-11" (he specifically asked if anyone in the audience
had ever touched _that_ version, no "/20").

> The three rings or 3 execution levels were not supported on the
> original machine.

Sure but v1/v2 UNIX was a lot simpler than v5.

-ethan

From bobalan at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jun 19 22:49:15 2019
From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 20:49:15 -0700
Subject: Another disk pack inspection unit on ebay
Message-ID: <3437eb4d-d1bf-908c-c680-f035e6278c6b@sbcglobal.net>

See:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Computer-Link-665-Series-600-Disc-Pack-Inspector-AO-American-Optical/173934678748?hash=item287f5092dc:g:GBsAAOSw~61cUegn

Bob

-- 
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org


From steven at malikoff.com  Wed Jun 19 22:55:16 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (Steve Malikoff)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 13:55:16 +1000
Subject: Ep. 5 Thirteen minutes to the Moon   Re: Apollo Guidance Computer
 Article
In-Reply-To: <F8F6C055-E117-48F6-822B-FD17665065F3@eschatologist.net>
References: <ca6692a0-2723-47d4-f5fb-da4d4197389c@jbrain.com>
 <F8F6C055-E117-48F6-822B-FD17665065F3@eschatologist.net>
Message-ID: <e9b303c6930a806e1152236fef5c58ad.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Chris said
> You might want to be explicit that the article is about the Apollo Guidance Computer, not about Apollo Computer the workstation manufacturer.
>
>   ? Chris

I'd like to mention the great podcast series 'Thirteen minutes to the Moon' the BBC is running right now.
Episode 5 is 'The Fouth Astronaut' covering the AGC. If you've watched the excellent Moon Machines series
it might cover what you've already known, but very good nonetheless:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csz4dn

Steve


From joezatarski at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 23:04:52 2019
From: joezatarski at gmail.com (Joe Zatarski)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 23:04:52 -0500
Subject: vaxstation ii machine check & diags efficacy
Message-ID: <CAL2F0+rP1AzJvicDSb8iQ_8H91x_xDKBd7i_dtN5Dr_N6P-O+A@mail.gmail.com>

> It's a VAXstation II/GPX. I'm trying to install VMS 5.5 (from CD if it
matters; there is a CMD CQD-200 or -220 as the only storage controller) and
routinely getting machine check exceptions.
>
> Standalone backup always boots. Sometimes I get an exception the moment I
hit <enter> on a restore; sometimes in the middle of the restore, sometimes
it runs to successful completion.
>
> VMS never boots. Sometimes I get as far as the date prompt (I took out
the battery), sometimes it gets a little farther, frequently it's before
anything appears on the console at all.
>
> The exceptions booting VMS occur the same if I attach another disk with
VMS 5.5 already installed; if I replace the KA630 and M7609 with a KA655
and M7622, it all seems to run fine.
>
> The KA630 power-on diagnostics all pass, but... it smells like a memory
fault to me. What are the odds there could be a memory fault that isn't
caught by the diags?
>
> ok
> bear.
>
> --
> until further notice

Well, if the KA630 diagnostics are anything like the KA650 diagnostics, the
power on self test is not too thorough as I learned. I found 10 bad DRAMs
on a KA650, the POST only found 2 of them. The rest I had to test by
running tests from the monitor with tighter parameters.

You should get into the console monitor on the KA630 and see if you can get
a list of tests to be run with the TEST command. Sometimes they have
parameters, and you can specify more thorough tests to be run. Keep in
mind, they may take considerably longer to run than the POST does.

I'm speaking from KA650 experience here, but I was able to run the MEM_Data
test on all of memory with an address increment of 1. It took about 4 or 5
hours to complete I think, for 8MB of RAM.

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 23:46:50 2019
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 00:46:50 -0400
Subject: PDP 11/15
In-Reply-To: <97D631AD-B976-4AE6-A3E1-FEF9B4945C27@comcast.net>
References: <CACwhfuP=sCJuz1-npggRrWvFrZpqWp69QVGYtVQHtxkUoKjKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR06MB2591A7BE0206F7E35C70C12BBAE50@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <92f8c54f-fa6c-e17d-5dae-2586fc403ed2@bitsavers.org>
 <CAHtNYbXw66BeH7cMBZPCmJRg=qvsiB8bUgp6WYUQ+_gE=P2sRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <97D631AD-B976-4AE6-A3E1-FEF9B4945C27@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <061c01d52723$2d135d00$873a1700$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
Koning via cctech
> Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 1:59 PM
> To: Bob Smith; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Cc: Al Kossow
> Subject: Re: PDP 11/15
>
>...
> 11/15 as a designation for an LSI based machine doesn't ring any bells at
all.
>
>	paul

PDT-11/150?  It is based on an LSI-11 and if you squint at the designation a
bit ...

-----


From pbirkel at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 23:46:50 2019
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 00:46:50 -0400
Subject: PDP 11/15
In-Reply-To: <97D631AD-B976-4AE6-A3E1-FEF9B4945C27@comcast.net>
References: <CACwhfuP=sCJuz1-npggRrWvFrZpqWp69QVGYtVQHtxkUoKjKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR06MB2591A7BE0206F7E35C70C12BBAE50@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <92f8c54f-fa6c-e17d-5dae-2586fc403ed2@bitsavers.org>
 <CAHtNYbXw66BeH7cMBZPCmJRg=qvsiB8bUgp6WYUQ+_gE=P2sRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <97D631AD-B976-4AE6-A3E1-FEF9B4945C27@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <061c01d52723$2d135d00$873a1700$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
Koning via cctech
> Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 1:59 PM
> To: Bob Smith; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Cc: Al Kossow
> Subject: Re: PDP 11/15
>
>...
> 11/15 as a designation for an LSI based machine doesn't ring any bells at
all.
>
>	paul

PDT-11/150?  It is based on an LSI-11 and if you squint at the designation a
bit ...

-----


From mattislind at gmail.com  Thu Jun 20 08:43:28 2019
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 15:43:28 +0200
Subject: Dumping MC6801 ROM contents.
Message-ID: <CABr82SJuLZC_zL3MrO9+W4uZ61PJEmeQ+GzUF=0BLPrd8WdwCA@mail.gmail.com>

I have been asked to dump the ROM contents out of the MC6801 in the
Ericsson PC keyboard to get the MAME emulation fully working. The guy that
is doing the emulation says this is the only thing missing and would be
nice if I could help him getting it finalized.

It is supposed to be quite easy. Put the MC6801 in test mode 0 and provide
RESET vectors for an external EPROM that has a program that dumps the
contents. Maybe in Intel HEX over the serial port. Should be quite straight
forward. But I have thousands of other things to deal with so if someone
already made such a small program I gladly use it instead of making my own.
Even though I done some 6800 and 6809 assembler once upon a time, it was 30
years ago, so I imagine it will take some time to get it working.

Is there anyone that already done this?

/Mattis

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 20 08:50:11 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 13:50:11 +0000
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=D+vvRbP=VnQfjvSVJic_QBZ1Ek5Ajmyasv0+RiVPDHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAHtNYbUgfDz=ZbojA08y+OhRSyFPAeSCHw3ntEQRxsHgEiibTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=D+vvRbP=VnQfjvSVJic_QBZ1Ek5Ajmyasv0+RiVPDHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB4088E39E79A2D649A4F32428EDE40@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>

On 6/19/19 10:20 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 9:23 PM Bob Smith via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> My recollection, Unix on the 11 started with the 20 but because of the
>> limited capabilties, it really was done on the /45.
> 
> The good stuff, yes, but it was still recognizable on the 11/20...
> 
> https://github.com/jserv/unix-v1
> 
>>> unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
> 
> Based on comments from Ken Thompson at his keynote at VCF East this
> year, just "PDP-11" (he specifically asked if anyone in the audience
> had ever touched _that_ version, no "/20").
> 
>> The three rings or 3 execution levels were not supported on the
>> original machine.
> 
> Sure but v1/v2 UNIX was a lot simpler than v5.
> 

V6 will run on an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory.

bill


From dkgrizzly at thewaffleiron.net  Wed Jun 19 18:50:10 2019
From: dkgrizzly at thewaffleiron.net (dkgrizzly at thewaffleiron.net)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 19:50:10 -0400
Subject: DEC QBUS power supply minimum load
Message-ID: <b87d01d526f9$bb57bfe0$32073fa0$@thewaffleiron.net>

I have a BA23 chassis that was used to hold 3 DSSI disks. There was a
different backplane with the load resistors instead of QBUS slots. There was
also a large capacitor bank installed along side the DSSI disk in the place
of the QBUS slots.  I can dig around next week when I go back home if you
still need the resistor sizes DEC used.

 

-David Kuder


From echristopherson at gmail.com  Thu Jun 20 09:56:54 2019
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 09:56:54 -0500
Subject: VENIX on Rainbow (was Re: Wanting to get my first classic
 computer)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmmPqX87O+f-34Yy5Cg1csPSTR4ZuJGmcaNu-cdy8rS1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmim=6H6eFHKo+9mMaY5N0p=+Ri1qNqOxjJyv73_JHZNi3bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201906200047.x5K0lU5221626970@floodgap.com>
 <CAALmimmmPqX87O+f-34Yy5Cg1csPSTR4ZuJGmcaNu-cdy8rS1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADyB93A_cpKL_Y315kZHYJ6fcZ3OX1CzC3=JUp3BP8CL6feeag@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 9:09 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 8:47 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > > Interesting.  I have VENIX on a Professional 350 (it was one of the
> > > machines I had on display for VCF East).  I haven't tried fiddling
> > > with VENIX on a Rainbow, though I did know it existed.
> >
> > Venix/PRO on a 380 here. I like it. Thinking about ways to make it
> > primitively networked.
>
> There is a DECNA, if you can find one.  It should work for 2.9BSD or
> 2.11BSD so it wouldn't be that hard to adapt to Venix, I'd wager.
>
> Outside of that, SLIP/PPP?  UUCP?
>
> -ethan
>

I'm really glad to see this discussion; I have a PDP-11/23+ waiting to be
poked at, but didn't know about the Professional at all; it's interesting
to see that Venix can run on the /23+ as well.

Whether it's a good choice of OS (compared to, say, 2.9BSD) or not I don't
know.

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Jun 20 10:58:55 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 10:58:55 -0500
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB4088E39E79A2D649A4F32428EDE40@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAHtNYbUgfDz=ZbojA08y+OhRSyFPAeSCHw3ntEQRxsHgEiibTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=D+vvRbP=VnQfjvSVJic_QBZ1Ek5Ajmyasv0+RiVPDHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB4088E39E79A2D649A4F32428EDE40@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <5D0BAD3F.2060400@pico-systems.com>

On 06/20/2019 08:50 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>
> V6 will run on an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory.
>
>
28 KW is 56 KBytes, which is the max on most non-MMU CPUs.

Jon

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Jun 20 11:00:47 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 09:00:47 -0700
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
In-Reply-To: <5D0BAD3F.2060400@pico-systems.com>
References: <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAHtNYbUgfDz=ZbojA08y+OhRSyFPAeSCHw3ntEQRxsHgEiibTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=D+vvRbP=VnQfjvSVJic_QBZ1Ek5Ajmyasv0+RiVPDHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB4088E39E79A2D649A4F32428EDE40@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <5D0BAD3F.2060400@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <d52f8b42-81a4-9d4b-97a9-8928a645ffc9@bitsavers.org>



On 6/20/19 8:58 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> On 06/20/2019 08:50 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> V6 will run on an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory.
>>
>>
> 28 KW is 56 KBytes, which is the max on most non-MMU CPUs.
> 
> Jon

Mini-Unix, the non-mmu version.


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Jun 20 11:00:51 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 09:00:51 -0700
Subject: VENIX on Rainbow (was Re: Wanting to get my first classic
 computer)
In-Reply-To: <CADyB93A_cpKL_Y315kZHYJ6fcZ3OX1CzC3=JUp3BP8CL6feeag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmim=6H6eFHKo+9mMaY5N0p=+Ri1qNqOxjJyv73_JHZNi3bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201906200047.x5K0lU5221626970@floodgap.com>
 <CAALmimmmPqX87O+f-34Yy5Cg1csPSTR4ZuJGmcaNu-cdy8rS1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADyB93A_cpKL_Y315kZHYJ6fcZ3OX1CzC3=JUp3BP8CL6feeag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85331445-acb1-3201-5774-ac80b3ac8eea@bitsavers.org>



On 6/20/19 7:56 AM, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote:
>  Venix can run on the /23+ as well.
> 
> Whether it's a good choice of OS (compared to, say, 2.9BSD) or not I don't
> know.
> 

I used Venix on 23s back in the day. It's V7, the file system is a little fragile
and has all of the limitations that go along with that version of Unix. Its big
selling point was the fact that you could BUY it. End-user Unix licensing didn't
happen until companies like Onyx and Fortune Systems came along.



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu Jun 20 12:23:00 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 12:23:00 -0500
Subject: UNIX/VENIX on PDP-11 (was Re: VENIX on Rainbow)
In-Reply-To: <CADyB93A_cpKL_Y315kZHYJ6fcZ3OX1CzC3=JUp3BP8CL6feeag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmim=6H6eFHKo+9mMaY5N0p=+Ri1qNqOxjJyv73_JHZNi3bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201906200047.x5K0lU5221626970@floodgap.com>
 <CAALmimmmPqX87O+f-34Yy5Cg1csPSTR4ZuJGmcaNu-cdy8rS1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADyB93A_cpKL_Y315kZHYJ6fcZ3OX1CzC3=JUp3BP8CL6feeag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimngjdHNfxTzzcduoxzft3q-5qqVi1oopt=b=v=Oje1Fyg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:57 AM Eric Christopherson
<echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 9:09 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 8:47 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> > > Interesting.  I have VENIX on a Professional 350 (it was one of the
>> > > machines I had on display for VCF East).  I haven't tried fiddling
>> > > with VENIX on a Rainbow, though I did know it existed.
>> >
>> > Venix/PRO on a 380 here. I like it. Thinking about ways to make it
>> > primitively networked.
>
> I'm really glad to see this discussion; I have a PDP-11/23+ waiting to be poked at, but didn't know about the Professional at all; it's interesting to see that Venix can run on the /23+ as well.

Venix/Pro has a driver for the Pro RD50 disk controller.  This is not
an MSCP controller, it's its own thing and fairly low-level (the
driver has to know details about how drives work, not a pile of data
blocks).  One could probably write an MSCP driver for a Qbus machine
but you'd probably want a source kit to get the Venix side of things.

There _are_ versions of UNIX that will run on the 11/23.  Your biggest
challenge is using nothing newer than 2.9BSD (because the KDF11 lacks
Split I&D) and finding a combination of disk controllers and OS
support that match up (there are patches for 2.9BSD that back-port an
MSCP driver for the RQDX3 but I haven't personally played with them -
my 2.9BSD work was on Unibus, on an 11/24 with either RL11/RL02 or
RK611/RK07 drives).

If you have an RLV11 or RLV12 and 1-2 RL02 drives, that's a good
starting point for UNIX on an 11/23.  If all you have for disk is
something on an RQDX3, you might be limited to patched 2.9BSD.

> Whether it's a good choice of OS (compared to, say, 2.9BSD) or not I don't know.

The version on my machine (Venix/PRO v1) is largely a port of UNIX v7.
I think Venix/PRO v2 for the Pro 380 is something different (and
newer) under the hood, to support Split I&D for example.  Not sure
about MSCP or network drivers there though.

It was definitely interesting writing code on my Venix box at VCF East
- turns out it has a minor Y2K problem.  Internal date representation
is seconds-since-the-epoch, of course, but the date command itself
only allows 2-digit year.  You can set the time to 23:59:00 31-Dec-99
and let it roll over then repeat each year until you get to the
current one... which could be done by a shell script, of course, or,
what I did was to write a simple program to accept the current time in
seconds and feed that to stime.  Nearly all my experience is with
later (post-1984) versions of UNIX so I had a bit of learning to do
(or is that learning to forget?) to get things working there but I
did.  I wish I'd packed my 1975 pocket flip-guide, but at least I had
all the original paper Venix/Pro docs (also up on Bitsavers).

-ethan

-ethan

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Jun 20 16:31:59 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 15:31:59 -0600
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
In-Reply-To: <5D0BAD3F.2060400@pico-systems.com>
References: <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAHtNYbUgfDz=ZbojA08y+OhRSyFPAeSCHw3ntEQRxsHgEiibTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=D+vvRbP=VnQfjvSVJic_QBZ1Ek5Ajmyasv0+RiVPDHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB4088E39E79A2D649A4F32428EDE40@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <5D0BAD3F.2060400@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <6c261ee4-3da3-7451-ebff-99e69c9932f1@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 6/20/2019 9:58 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> On 06/20/2019 08:50 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> V6 will run on an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory.
>>
>>
> 28 KW is 56 KBytes, which is the max on most non-MMU CPUs.
> 
> Jon
> 
Don't you ALL wish the the 11 was 18 bits. Not looking at REAL
11 but the schematic, two bits would have not been too hard to add.
Ben.


From cube1 at charter.net  Thu Jun 20 16:55:50 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 16:55:50 -0500
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
In-Reply-To: <d52f8b42-81a4-9d4b-97a9-8928a645ffc9@bitsavers.org>
References: <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAHtNYbUgfDz=ZbojA08y+OhRSyFPAeSCHw3ntEQRxsHgEiibTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=D+vvRbP=VnQfjvSVJic_QBZ1Ek5Ajmyasv0+RiVPDHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB4088E39E79A2D649A4F32428EDE40@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <5D0BAD3F.2060400@pico-systems.com>
 <d52f8b42-81a4-9d4b-97a9-8928a645ffc9@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <f5b8dd4c-0c17-63cd-c8be-ab632bae3b31@charter.net>

On 6/20/2019 11:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 6/20/19 8:58 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>> On 06/20/2019 08:50 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>>
>>> V6 will run on an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory.
>>>
>>>
>> 28 KW is 56 KBytes, which is the max on most non-MMU CPUs.
>>
>> Jon
> 
> Mini-Unix, the non-mmu version.
> 
> 

Which does also run on a /20, though I have never tried it.

From derschjo at gmail.com  Thu Jun 20 16:57:11 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 14:57:11 -0700
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
In-Reply-To: <f5b8dd4c-0c17-63cd-c8be-ab632bae3b31@charter.net>
References: <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAHtNYbUgfDz=ZbojA08y+OhRSyFPAeSCHw3ntEQRxsHgEiibTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=D+vvRbP=VnQfjvSVJic_QBZ1Ek5Ajmyasv0+RiVPDHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB4088E39E79A2D649A4F32428EDE40@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <5D0BAD3F.2060400@pico-systems.com>
 <d52f8b42-81a4-9d4b-97a9-8928a645ffc9@bitsavers.org>
 <f5b8dd4c-0c17-63cd-c8be-ab632bae3b31@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLYTeu3=E41FLj86Ajc06LPkAmSaM2y_LpycLzBoR7PKtQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 2:56 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 6/20/2019 11:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 6/20/19 8:58 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> >> On 06/20/2019 08:50 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> >>>
> >>> V6 will run on an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> 28 KW is 56 KBytes, which is the max on most non-MMU CPUs.
> >>
> >> Jon
> >
> > Mini-Unix, the non-mmu version.
> >
> >
>
> Which does also run on a /20, though I have never tried it.
>

Mini-Unix is fairly notable in that it doesn't require EIS; so it'll run on
an 11/05 as well.  Not fast, mind you...

- Josh

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Jun 20 19:20:07 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 20:20:07 -0400
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
In-Reply-To: <6c261ee4-3da3-7451-ebff-99e69c9932f1@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAHtNYbUgfDz=ZbojA08y+OhRSyFPAeSCHw3ntEQRxsHgEiibTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=D+vvRbP=VnQfjvSVJic_QBZ1Ek5Ajmyasv0+RiVPDHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB4088E39E79A2D649A4F32428EDE40@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <5D0BAD3F.2060400@pico-systems.com>
 <6c261ee4-3da3-7451-ebff-99e69c9932f1@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <5BD03F0F-7CBA-421B-B143-0B0F28CB2E07@comcast.net>



> On Jun 20, 2019, at 5:31 PM, ben via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 6/20/2019 9:58 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>> On 06/20/2019 08:50 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>> 
>>> V6 will run on an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 28 KW is 56 KBytes, which is the max on most non-MMU CPUs.
>> Jon
> Don't you ALL wish the the 11 was 18 bits. Not looking at REAL
> 11 but the schematic, two bits would have not been too hard to add.

You mean like a PDP-7 (the first Unix machine)?

	paul


From trash80 at internode.on.net  Thu Jun 20 23:34:08 2019
From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 14:34:08 +1000
Subject: RSS Feeds
Message-ID: <000001d527ea$91e4d020$b5ae7060$@internode.on.net>

I'm looking for some reliable RSS feeds (I appreciate they seem to be coming
rare these days) to do with classic computers, preferably with a TRS-80
flavour but I'm not going to be precious about it.

Google didn't seem to produce too many and those it did were either not
there anymore or broken or monumentally out of date.

If anyone can point me any where I'd be most grateful.

Thank you




Kevin Parker
0418 815 527



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Fri Jun 21 04:01:44 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 03:01:44 -0600
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
In-Reply-To: <5BD03F0F-7CBA-421B-B143-0B0F28CB2E07@comcast.net>
References: <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1782970743.3015615.1560979221964@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAHtNYbUgfDz=ZbojA08y+OhRSyFPAeSCHw3ntEQRxsHgEiibTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=D+vvRbP=VnQfjvSVJic_QBZ1Ek5Ajmyasv0+RiVPDHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB4088E39E79A2D649A4F32428EDE40@BYAPR01MB4088.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <5D0BAD3F.2060400@pico-systems.com>
 <6c261ee4-3da3-7451-ebff-99e69c9932f1@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <5BD03F0F-7CBA-421B-B143-0B0F28CB2E07@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <689632d3-a4d5-0c2e-ccfd-95426508c795@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 6/20/2019 6:20 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

>> Don't you ALL wish the the 11 was 18 bits. Not looking at REAL
>> 11 but the schematic, two bits would have not been too hard to add.
> 
> You mean like a PDP-7 (the first Unix machine)?

Nope, the * PDP 11 * from 1971.

It used if I remember right a 16x1 RAM and a 1 bit ADDER was heart of 
the ALU. 4 bit wide TTL came out in the next version of the 11.
Reading the development notes for the PDP 11 (bitsavers) makes 
interesting reading on just what was planned back then.
XV6 is  teaching unix (2006) I just found out about. We now
all can upgrade from PDP11's with 56K of core to PC with 128KB of memory 
:) .
Ben.


> 	paul
> 
> 


From useddec at gmail.com  Fri Jun 21 04:06:13 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 04:06:13 -0500
Subject: Wanting to get my first classic computer
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfqNAAjxx=aW3H62VuomPJy_ofQbY1WWv2UoiXBZsvj7ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMFEAADc=D2=+G39JCtLt6=fFueNWQa-wEK3cVgvgQyU5Gm+6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqNAAjxx=aW3H62VuomPJy_ofQbY1WWv2UoiXBZsvj7ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuN2f3PAcvseRJjT2nahF0Z=MnM3WD-2Jx9qO6ou_vGF=Q@mail.gmail.com>

I still have a rainbow or two and a lot of extra parts.  If anyone is
interested, please contact me off list.\


Thanks, Paul

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 10:54 PM Warner Losh via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 8:08 PM Ray Jewhurst via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > Hello all, I have been a student of computer history for years but have
> > only learned how to use classic machines vicariously through emulation.
> I
> > would really like to get my own classic computer but I don't know where
> to
> > begin.  For one, I am on a very limited income and two I don't have a lot
> > of space and finally I don't have much knowledge on the finer points of
> the
> > older hardware i.e. terminals networking, etc.  I would really like a
> > Vaxstation but I have also considered a '90s workstation such as an SGI
> > Indy or a SparcStation.  I am pretty fluent in both VMS and Unix so any
> of
> > those would work.  So where do I look besides e-Bay?  I see some
> available
> > here but none near me.  I'm in the Detroit area.  Any advice would be
> > appreciated.  I do know that I do now want a Mac or old PC.  I would like
> > something more exotic.  (Although it might me neat to own a Rainbow.)
>
>
> All the cool kids had DEC Rainbows... though to be honest, maybe I'm biased
> since the DEC Rainbow 100B was my first computer and I'm currently on a DEC
> Rainbow VENIX boondoggle trying too reconstruct frmo v7 and sys III sources
> now available the original Venix 86R source code... :)
>
> Though I'm sure all that other stuff is cool too...
>
> Warner
>
> P.S. I had a VMS Forever bumper sticker on my car for a few years thanks to
> an ex-girlfriend that knew me tooo well :)
>

From lorrywoodman at gmail.com  Fri Jun 21 01:27:07 2019
From: lorrywoodman at gmail.com (Lawrence Woodman)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 07:27:07 +0100
Subject: RSS Feeds
In-Reply-To: <000001d527ea$91e4d020$b5ae7060$@internode.on.net>
References: <000001d527ea$91e4d020$b5ae7060$@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <7a4a74f7-9908-57bc-a3e6-94964420b4dd@gmail.com>

Hello Kevin,

I blog mostly, but not entirely, about vintage computers on my website.

Most recently I have been writing articles about CP/M.

 ? https://techtinkering.com

The RSS feed is:

 ? http://feeds.feedburner.com/TechTinkering

If you like watching videos I also have a youtube channel:

 ? https://youtube.com/techtinkering


Hope this is of interest


Lorry


On 21/06/2019 05:34, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote:
> I'm looking for some reliable RSS feeds (I appreciate they seem to be coming
> rare these days) to do with classic computers, preferably with a TRS-80
> flavour but I'm not going to be precious about it.
>
> Google didn't seem to produce too many and those it did were either not
> there anymore or broken or monumentally out of date.
>
> If anyone can point me any where I'd be most grateful.
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
>
> Kevin Parker
> 0418 815 527
>
>

From jim at photojim.ca  Fri Jun 21 09:35:20 2019
From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 08:35:20 -0600
Subject: RSS Feeds
In-Reply-To: <000001d527ea$91e4d020$b5ae7060$@internode.on.net>
References: <000001d527ea$91e4d020$b5ae7060$@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <00af01d5283e$8dc10be0$a94323a0$@photojim.ca>

Here are mine.  The hashed-out ones seem to be on hiatus or have
disappeared.  This is from my podget configuration file.

jim at hobart:~/.podget$ grep -i computer serverlist
http://floppydays.libsyn.com/rss Computers Floppy Days
http://www.cyberears.com/podcasts/podcast_6067.xml Computers Chicken Lips
Radio
http://www.cyberears.com/podcasts/podcast_6066.xml Computers Next Without
For
http://www.cyberears.com/podcasts/podcast_5982.xml Computers Retro Computing
Roundtable
http://retrobits.libsyn.com/rss Computers Retrobits
#http://www.edbbspodcast.com/feed/podcast/?podcast_series=podcast Computers
Electric Dreams
#http://spritecastle.com/feed/ Computers Sprite Castle
http://feeds.feedburner.com/AmigosPodcast?format=xml Computers Amigos
http://www.historyofpersonalcomputing.com/?feed=podcast Computers The
History of Personal Computing
http://PressPlayOnTape.podbean.com/feed/ Computers Press Play On Tape

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
Parker via cctalk
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2019 10:34 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: RSS Feeds

I'm looking for some reliable RSS feeds (I appreciate they seem to be coming
rare these days) to do with classic computers, preferably with a TRS-80
flavour but I'm not going to be precious about it.

Google didn't seem to produce too many and those it did were either not
there anymore or broken or monumentally out of date.

If anyone can point me any where I'd be most grateful.

Thank you




Kevin Parker
0418 815 527




From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Jun 21 14:23:21 2019
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 13:23:21 -0600
Subject: Teac FD55-GF drives wanted for experiments in reading Twiggy floppies
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRTiz4j4RtTx3PUJW4YsX1KVnXBhhJSrMuSh70==oQJBA@mail.gmail.com>

Is anyone willing to sell me a few Teac FD55-GF or -GFR floppy drives (PC
5.25-in high density) for less than eBay prices? I want to experiment with
modifying them to read Apple Twiggy diskettes, primarily by adding a
microstepping driver for the head positioning.

I specifically want Teac drives because there are reasonably good service
manuals on them, and I don't want to deal with multiple brands of drives.

The handwritten labels on the Twiggy diskettes I recently acquired make it
appear that they were used for prerelease Lisa development. I will be
getting more of them in a few weeks, from the same source.

From wkt at tuhs.org  Fri Jun 21 18:30:37 2019
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 09:30:37 +1000
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
Message-ID: <20190621233037.GA26355@minnie.tuhs.org>

According to this page that Dennis Ritchie wrote, the original PDP-11
they used was indeed an 11/20 but it was before there were PDP-11 model
numbers:

https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/picture.html

And, of course, the PDP-7 Unix development came before the PDP-11 version :)

Cheers, Warren

From steven at malikoff.com  Fri Jun 21 19:21:36 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (Steve Malikoff)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 10:21:36 +1000
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
In-Reply-To: <20190621233037.GA26355@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20190621233037.GA26355@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <b34efdf0b626f046ce8476179e143923.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Warren said
> According to this page that Dennis Ritchie wrote, the original PDP-11
> they used was indeed an 11/20 but it was before there were PDP-11 model
> numbers:
>
> https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/picture.html
>
> And, of course, the PDP-7 Unix development came before the PDP-11 version :)
>
> Cheers, Warren

It states that their 11/20 had a KS-11 memory management unit, was that mandatory for running v1 Unix on an 11/20?

The 1971 Unix Programmer's Manual mentions their 11/20 had 24 KB (surely KW?) memory rather than 28KW.
https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/1stEdman.html

Having recently acquired a 3rd-party 8KW unibus memory module (stack + drivers + control, all integrated into a
DD-11-sized form) that is the same model and brand as the 16KW unit in my ex-BHP steelworks FOX 2 (11/15), perhaps
there is the very, very slim hope that if the whole thing works it might be enough to run v1 someday. That day
however is a long way away, but I think I now have most of the hardware needed.

Steve.



From wkt at tuhs.org  Fri Jun 21 20:08:03 2019
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:08:03 +1000
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
Message-ID: <20190622010803.GA3707@minnie.tuhs.org>

Steve Malikoff wrote:
> It states that their 11/20 had a KS-11 memory management unit, was that
> mandatory for running v1 Unix on an 11/20?

I case-insensitively grepped for 'ks.*11' in the Github repository here:
https://github.com/DoctorWkt/unix-jun72
and I didn't see a mention.

> The 1971 Unix Programmer's Manual mentions their
> 11/20 had 24 KB (surely KW?) memory rather than 28KW.

28KB is right. The simh.cfg from the repo says:

set cpu 11/20
set cpu 32K

Cheers, Warren

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Jun 21 20:10:54 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:10:54 -0400
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
In-Reply-To: <b34efdf0b626f046ce8476179e143923.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <20190621233037.GA26355@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <b34efdf0b626f046ce8476179e143923.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <341D6A57-BB53-4A3C-8BB2-0D3859E15BEC@comcast.net>



> On Jun 21, 2019, at 8:21 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Warren said
>> According to this page that Dennis Ritchie wrote, the original PDP-11
>> they used was indeed an 11/20 but it was before there were PDP-11 model
>> numbers:
>> 
>> https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/picture.html
>> 
>> And, of course, the PDP-7 Unix development came before the PDP-11 version :)
>> 
>> Cheers, Warren
> 
> It states that their 11/20 had a KS-11 memory management unit, was that mandatory for running v1 Unix on an 11/20?

Curious.  Recently on this list we learned that CSS built an MMU for the 11/20, rather different in structure from the later ones (not quite a Unibus peripheral but more in that direction).  But that wasn't called KS-11.

> The 1971 Unix Programmer's Manual mentions their 11/20 had 24 KB (surely KW?) memory rather than 28KW.
> https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/1stEdman.html

I would assume kW.  In the PDP11 world we didn't normally speak of bytes or kbytes, certainly not for memory and often not elsewhere either.  So we'd say the disks have 256 word blocks (except 32 in the RC11 and 1 in the RF11).

	paul


From wkt at tuhs.org  Fri Jun 21 20:40:32 2019
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:40:32 +1000
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
Message-ID: <20190622014032.GA7538@minnie.tuhs.org>

Paul Koning wrote:

>> The 1971 Unix Programmer's Manual mentions their 11/20 had 24 KB
>> (surely KW?) memory rather than 28KW.

> I would assume kW.  In the PDP11 world we didn't normally speak of
> bytes or kbytes, certainly not for memory and often not elsewhere either.

The PDP-11 Unix source:
https://github.com/DoctorWkt/unix-jun72/blob/master/pages/e00-01
says:

orig = 0
core = orig+40000 / specifies beginning of user's core
ecore = core+20000 / specifies end of user's core (4096 words)

So: 40000= 16KB for the kernel, 20000= 8KB for the user program.

Cheers, Warren

From mosst at SDF.ORG  Fri Jun 21 20:58:34 2019
From: mosst at SDF.ORG (Thomas Moss)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 01:58:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: RK05 indicator lenses?
Message-ID: <alpine.NEB.2.20.1906220156510.29025@sdf.lonestar.org>

Hi All,

I've recently acquired an RK05 that's missing the lenses for its indicator
lights.

Does anyone know a part number or where I could find replacements?
I was hoping there would be a clue in the engineering drawings, but
unfortuanetly not.

Regards,
-Tom

mosst at sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

From barythrin at gmail.com  Fri Jun 21 23:20:10 2019
From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:20:10 -0500
Subject: June 22
In-Reply-To: <04b101d51fbf$88a30fa0$99e92ee0$@com>
References: <04b101d51fbf$88a30fa0$99e92ee0$@com>
Message-ID: <CAEOGs+g2VU--srD55sMUjA-gejrEuRFJuM9Bgo=pYVHq_syNKg@mail.gmail.com>

Free reminder :-) I'll try to make it out there and see what's new (old).

Not sure how many RSVPs you received but hope for the best and to say hi to
any other localish collectors.

- John

On Mon, Jun 10, 2019, 2:06 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> My warehouse will be open on Sat, Jun 22, from 10-3 for anyone that wants
> to
> come scrounge. I am 1 hour from San Antonio, or 2.5 hours from Austin, or
> 4-5 hours from Houston or Dallas (in decent traffic and weather).
>
>
>
> Cindy Croxton
>
> Electronics Plus
>
> 1613 Water Street
>
> Kerrville, TX 78028
>
> 830-370-3239 cell
>
> sales at elecplus.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>

From cube1 at charter.net  Sat Jun 22 08:07:12 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 08:07:12 -0500
Subject: RK05 indicator lenses?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.NEB.2.20.1906220156510.29025@sdf.lonestar.org>
References: <alpine.NEB.2.20.1906220156510.29025@sdf.lonestar.org>
Message-ID: <00bcd510-3ca6-d429-58c1-b5e154bc0fb4@charter.net>

On 6/21/2019 8:58 PM, Thomas Moss via cctalk wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I've recently acquired an RK05 that's missing the lenses for its indicator
> lights.
> 
> Does anyone know a part number or where I could find replacements?
> I was hoping there would be a clue in the engineering drawings, but
> unfortuanetly not.
> 
> Regards,
> -Tom
> 
> mosst at sdf.lonestar.org
> SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
> 

The good news is that I have some spares from some disassembled drives
(1 red. 6 white) and an entire front panel with the lenses. The bad news
is that one of the places I have them is  offsite (though inventoried: I
know exactly where they are), and I won't be able to get to them until
about a month from now.  If you don't come up with an answer by then,
feel free to contact me.

(I have a red one and 6 white ones at my house, but to get the 7th one,
I need to go offsite and pull one off of a panel).

JRJ

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Jun 22 10:52:59 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:52:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just
 said pdp/11?
Message-ID: <20190622155259.5594418C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Steve Malikoff

    >> According to this page that Dennis Ritchie wrote ...
    >> https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/picture.html

    > It states that their 11/20 had a KS-11 memory management unit, was
    > that mandatory for running v1 Unix on an 11/20?

Well, the page does say they had two -11/20's, apparently one with and one
without the KS11.

Also, ISTR that the source for the -11/20 system has been recovered from a
listing and run, and IIRC that didn't have the KS11 stuff in it (but it
might be worth checking).


Next to nothing is known of the KS11. Dennis' page "Odd Comments and
Strange Doings in Unix":

  https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/odd.html

has a story involving it (at the end), and that is all I've ever been able
to find out about it (if anyone has anything more, please let me know).

My original guess as to its functionality, from that, was that it's not
part of the CPU, but a UNIBUS device, which perhaps maps addresses around
(and definitely limits user access to I/O page addresses). It might also
have mapped part of the UNIBUS space which the -11/20 CPU _can_ see (i.e.
in the 0-56KB range) up to higher addresses, where 'extra' memory is
configured.

However, on re-reading that page, I see it apparently supported some sort
of user/kernel mode distinction, which might have require a tie-in to the
CPU. (But not necessarily; if there was a flop in the KS11 which stored
the 'CPU mode' bit, it might be automatically cleared on all interrupts.
Not sure how it would have handled traps, though.

I'll have to enquire on the TUHS list.

	Noel

From lorrywoodman at gmail.com  Sat Jun 22 01:09:50 2019
From: lorrywoodman at gmail.com (Lawrence Woodman)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 07:09:50 +0100
Subject: RSS Feeds
In-Reply-To: <000001d527ea$91e4d020$b5ae7060$@internode.on.net>
References: <000001d527ea$91e4d020$b5ae7060$@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <de3e113b-85e4-fffd-f252-11b842ebcf59@gmail.com>

Hello Kevin,

On 21/06/2019 05:34, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote:
> I'm looking for some reliable RSS feeds (I appreciate they seem to be coming
> rare these days) to do with classic computers, preferably with a TRS-80
> flavour but I'm not going to be precious about it.
>
> If anyone can point me any where I'd be most grateful.


I've been thinking some more after seeing Jim's post.? If you can import 
.opml files then here's mine for vintage computer feeds, if not they are 
easy to extract:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>

<opml version="1.0">
 ??? <head>
 ??????? <title>Lawrence's subscriptions in feedly Cloud</title>
 ??? </head>
 ??? <body>
 ??????? <outline text="Retro computers" title="Retro computers">
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="Jupiter Ace Alert (Google)" 
title="Jupiter Ace Alert (Google)" 
xmlUrl="http://www.google.com/alerts/feeds/14541702872815628609/2860805875811005895"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="vintage computer collecting" 
title="vintage computer collecting" 
xmlUrl="http://www.reddit.com/r/computercollecting/.rss" 
htmlUrl="http://www.reddit.com/r/computercollecting/"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="PDP-8 Challenge" title="PDP-8 
Challenge" xmlUrl="http://pdpchallenge.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default" 
htmlUrl="http://pdpchallenge.blogspot.com/"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="Retro Kit News" title="Retro Kit 
News" 
xmlUrl="http://www.retro-kit.co.uk/feed.cfm/feedtype/news/feedname/newsRSS/feed/latest/RSSFormat/atom1/" 
htmlUrl="http://www.retro-kit.co.uk/"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="Chicken Lips Radio" 
title="Chicken Lips Radio" 
xmlUrl="http://www.chickenlipsradio.org/feeds/posts/default" 
htmlUrl="http://www.chickenlipsradio.org/"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="The Vintage Computer Forums - 
Blogs" title="The Vintage Computer Forums - Blogs" 
xmlUrl="http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/blog_external.php?type=RSS2" 
htmlUrl="http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/blog.php"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="Retro Computing News" 
title="Retro Computing News" 
xmlUrl="http://retrocomputingnews.com/feed/" 
htmlUrl="https://retrocomputingnews.com"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="Byte Cellar" title="Byte Cellar" 
xmlUrl="http://www.bytecellar.com/index.rdf" 
htmlUrl="https://bytecellar.com"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="Peter's z80.eu site blog" 
title="Peter's z80.eu site blog" xmlUrl="http://www.z80.eu/blog/rss.php" 
htmlUrl="http://www.z80.eu/blog/index.php"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="(title unknown)" title="(title 
unknown)" xmlUrl="http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/feed.xml" 
htmlUrl="http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2012-12-16-fixing-an-epson-QX-10.htm"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="ZX81 Computer ? Reid's For Fun" 
title="ZX81 Computer ? Reid's For Fun" 
xmlUrl="http://feeds.reids4fun.com/StevensZx81Computer" 
htmlUrl="https://www.reids4fun.com/topic/zx81/feed"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="Commodore News and Info Page" 
title="Commodore News and Info Page" 
xmlUrl="http://www.richardlagendijk.nl/rss/rss-en.xml" 
htmlUrl="http://www.richardlagendijk.nl/cnp/home/index/1/en"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="RCR Podcast Blog" title="RCR 
Podcast Blog" xmlUrl="http://rcrpodcast.com/blog/rss.xml" 
htmlUrl="http://rcrpodcast.com/blog/"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="Retro Computers" title="Retro 
Computers" xmlUrl="http://www.retrocomputers.eu/?feed=rss2" 
htmlUrl="https://www.retrocomputers.online"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="Retro Programming" title="Retro 
Programming" xmlUrl="http://retrocode.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default" 
htmlUrl="http://www.retroprogramming.com/"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="CP/M CONNECTIONS" title="CP/M 
CONNECTIONS" 
xmlUrl="http://cpm-connections.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default" 
htmlUrl="http://cpm-connections.blogspot.com/"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="Commodore Is Awesome" 
title="Commodore Is Awesome" 
xmlUrl="http://feeds.feedburner.com/amiga/eSQy" 
htmlUrl="http://awesome.commodore.me"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="ASCII by Jason Scott" 
title="ASCII by Jason Scott" xmlUrl="http://ascii.textfiles.com/feed" 
htmlUrl="http://ascii.textfiles.com"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="SourceForge.net: SF.net Project 
News: The FreeDOS Project" title="SourceForge.net: SF.net Project News: 
The FreeDOS Project" 
xmlUrl="http://sourceforge.net/export/rss2_projnews.php?group_id=5109" 
htmlUrl="https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/news/"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="TechTinkering - Retro Computers, 
Programming, General Technical Tinkering" title="TechTinkering - Retro 
Computers, Programming, General Technical Tinkering" 
xmlUrl="http://feeds.feedburner.com/TechTinkering" 
htmlUrl="http://techtinkering.com"/>
 ??????????? <outline type="rss" text="The FreeDOS Project blog" 
title="The FreeDOS Project blog" 
xmlUrl="http://freedos-project.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default" 
htmlUrl="http://freedos-project.blogspot.com/"/>
 ??????? </outline>
 ??? </body>
</opml>


It's a shame so many people have abandoned RSS feeds considering how 
easy they are to create and how much easier they make it to follow what 
someone is doing.? I keep coming across interesting vintage computer 
related blogs but then lose track of them again because they don't have 
an RSS feed and its too much of a hassle to keep going around each site 
to see if there is anything interesting.

It's particularly surprising with vintage computer blogs because we 
should in theory be relatively tech savvy and in theory RSS must be 
about 20 years old now so it is by some theories vintage as well.

Hopefully your post will act as a reminder to those who aren't 
publishing RSS feeds that it may be worth implementing them.


Best wishes


Lorry

---
https://techtinkering.com - Retro Computers, CP/M, Programming
https://techtinkering.com/articles/mission-impossible-on-cpm/
https://youtube.com/techtinkering


From danr234 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 23 20:18:49 2019
From: danr234 at gmail.com (Danr)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 21:18:49 -0400
Subject: Help with a qic data tape
Message-ID: <9B32B5ED-CEA7-448B-888D-20667043F158@gmail.com>

Someone gave me your info.    I have a very important tape I need help with.   The tape spooled off the end and I need the belt put back on.  Maybe getting the data off the tape too.    


It?s a 3m dc2120 120Megabyte tape.    

I?ve tried to do some practice tapes with junk tapes but I?m not confident enough to do it.  

From tony.aiuto at gmail.com  Mon Jun 24 05:30:42 2019
From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 12:30:42 +0200
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <20190617064928.d4zj4acmofqf4mfs@Update.UU.SE>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8B4C35F7-7B9E-4C62-9011-2FCBE35D372C@comcast.net>
 <3dc3ee54-b2ee-8556-48e0-53d6790338ec@sydex.com>
 <4f13d83e79ed5f56d6d1ddff5d47ecec@alanlee.org>
 <9c5f73e8-f596-eeb7-c26a-fb43af70ae59@sydex.com>
 <0a37f4fab31ff8fd2288105b2ef6a27360f9b0a3.camel@agj.net>
 <6e3e6541-4202-c59d-e861-97e9feac39ea@sydex.com>
 <20190617064928.d4zj4acmofqf4mfs@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAKGyVsUr2Sf+eSJwJKWXAZX9UiyfGgDKZ1DLmH-80B_gHFyXow@mail.gmail.com>

On a related note, a fun talk about ARM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2045&v=_6sh097Dk5k

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Mon Jun 24 10:16:19 2019
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:16:19 -0500
Subject: Identifying some boards
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUz8VAP9garCOevSS8Sv=HvREW88uoj+M3Zes_Wr9J6adA@mail.gmail.com>

I picked up these boards many weeks ago, but haven't photographed them
until recently. Some of them are pretty disgusting, but some of the others
look alright.

Anyone have any idea what these came out of? Some are labeled Gould, others
are labeled Encore.

http://imgur.com/a/d9iK9qb

Thanks!

Kyle

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Jun 24 10:45:31 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 09:45:31 -0600
Subject: Help with a qic data tape
In-Reply-To: <9B32B5ED-CEA7-448B-888D-20667043F158@gmail.com>
References: <9B32B5ED-CEA7-448B-888D-20667043F158@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <60e60f5d-de2c-c541-865b-03af43c847d8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/23/19 7:18 PM, Danr via cctalk wrote:
> Someone gave me your info.    I have a very important tape I need help 
> with.   The tape spooled off the end and I need the belt put back on. 
> Maybe getting the data off the tape too.
> 
> It?s a 3m dc2120 120Megabyte tape.
> 
> I?ve tried to do some practice tapes with junk tapes but I?m not 
> confident enough to do it.

Have you seen the following videos?

Link - Vintage HP Mini Cartridge Tapes Part 1: Refurbishing the Drives
  - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTZCD4OXETk

Link - Vintage HP Mini Cartridge Tapes Part 2: Tape Salad
  - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuMBOiwPnOg

Marc talks about the issues that he ran into with his old QIC tapes.

Maybe you already know the information he shares.

I've personally put belts back on and ""reattached tape to one of the 
reels.  (There was enough leader that I didn't have a problem.)  The 
simple basics worked for me when I did it years ago.  Your situation may 
be more complicated.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From connork at connorsdomain.com  Mon Jun 24 10:54:40 2019
From: connork at connorsdomain.com (connork at connorsdomain.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:54:40 -0500
Subject: Identifying some boards
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUz8VAP9garCOevSS8Sv=HvREW88uoj+M3Zes_Wr9J6adA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUz8VAP9garCOevSS8Sv=HvREW88uoj+M3Zes_Wr9J6adA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d2ddaf6a863d7b0501a88efb485fa5bd@connorsdomain.com>

Some quick searching makes it look like it belongs to Encore's RSX line 
of machines.
They still have a website with tons of information on it:
http://encore-support.com/products4.htm
Looking at a parts page I found here:
http://encore-support.com/htmls/

Specifically here is a list of part numbers that seems to have your 
boards in it:
http://encore-support.com/htmls/repaircpy.htm
> 160-113229-001                                  PWA-4MB/SRAM/75NS
160-113229-002                                  PWA-4MB/SRAM/150
160-113229-003                                  PWA-16MB/SRAM
> 160-113234-001                                  PWA-CPU
160-113234-002                                  PWA-CPU

RSX CPU board, anyway, lots of good info on the arch here:
http://encore-support.com/htmls/rsx.htm

A quote from the above link:
"Influenced largely by Encore?s long experience in real time, the Encore 
RSX memory system features a very large Direct Mapped Cache (DMC) 
design. Starting at 4MB, the DMC delivers unprecedented user cache 
management and control. First, the cache is expandable up to total of 
16MB."

So it looks like you have an RSX CPU and 4MB Cache board and some other 
support boards. Your missing DRAM and I/O and well a lot of other 
stuff...

Anyway, hope this helps.

-Connor K


On 2019-06-24 10:16, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote:
> I picked up these boards many weeks ago, but haven't photographed them
> until recently. Some of them are pretty disgusting, but some of the 
> others
> look alright.
> 
> Anyone have any idea what these came out of? Some are labeled Gould, 
> others
> are labeled Encore.
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/d9iK9qb
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Kyle

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Jun 24 15:38:15 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:38:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Anyone have any info on the obscure MX11 PDP-11 option?
Message-ID: <20190624203815.5B46F18C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

While I asking on the TUHS list about the KS11, someone mentioned the MX11
Memory Extension Option, described as "enabl[ing] the usage of 128 KW memory
(18-bit addressing range) ... developed by the Digital CSS (Computer Special
Systems)".

I'm not familiar with this, and I couldn't find anything about it. (It's not
even in the Spare Modules Handbook, but then again, neither is the KS11 -
although the KT11-B is). Some early UNIBUS device address lists (e.g. the '72
"peripherals and interfacing handbook") list up to six, from #1 at 777600-06
to #6 at 777650-56.

I can _guess_ what it did, from the description above (e.g. maps an 8KB block,
since there can be up to 6), but I was wondering if anyone had any hard data;
e.g. memories based on using one BITD, etc, etc.

Even a high level description (e.g. 'sat on the UNIBUS between the CPU and
extra memory, and mapped a fixed block of low UNIBUS address space to a block
controlled by a register') would be an improvement on what we have now, which
is basically nothing.

       Noel

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Jun 24 16:04:19 2019
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 14:04:19 -0700
Subject: Anyone have any info on the obscure MX11 PDP-11 option?
In-Reply-To: <20190624203815.5B46F18C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190624203815.5B46F18C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <A0772623-3B55-46CA-A17D-CE77B0586B33@shiresoft.com>

One place to look and see if there was anything, is to look for any hardware information
about C.MMP at CMU.  Since C. had a mix of modified 11/20s and 11/40s, there *may*
be some information on what they did.

Unfortunately I don?t think it would map directly because C. had (as I recall) 1.2MW of
memory off of the cross point switch.  It was probably capable of more, but I know at
the time I was doing stuff on C., it had 1.2MW.

For those not familiar, C.MMP was a 16-way multiprocessor using PDP-11s that ran
an OS called Hydra.  As far as I remember, the individual 11?s had 8K of local memory
and everything else was accessible through the memory off of the cross-point switch
(basically think of it as 16-port memory).  The cross point switch was pretty spectacular
since there were LEDs at each ?intersection? (processor and memory) for a total of
256 LEDs (in a 16 x 16 array).  The LED lit when a processor was accessing a particular
memory region.  It made for some spectacular light shows!

TTFN - Guy

> On Jun 24, 2019, at 1:38 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> While I asking on the TUHS list about the KS11, someone mentioned the MX11
> Memory Extension Option, described as "enabl[ing] the usage of 128 KW memory
> (18-bit addressing range) ... developed by the Digital CSS (Computer Special
> Systems)".
> 
> I'm not familiar with this, and I couldn't find anything about it. (It's not
> even in the Spare Modules Handbook, but then again, neither is the KS11 -
> although the KT11-B is). Some early UNIBUS device address lists (e.g. the '72
> "peripherals and interfacing handbook") list up to six, from #1 at 777600-06
> to #6 at 777650-56.
> 
> I can _guess_ what it did, from the description above (e.g. maps an 8KB block,
> since there can be up to 6), but I was wondering if anyone had any hard data;
> e.g. memories based on using one BITD, etc, etc.
> 
> Even a high level description (e.g. 'sat on the UNIBUS between the CPU and
> extra memory, and mapped a fixed block of low UNIBUS address space to a block
> controlled by a register') would be an improvement on what we have now, which
> is basically nothing.
> 
>       Noel


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Mon Jun 24 16:16:24 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 17:16:24 -0400
Subject: Anyone have any info on the obscure MX11 PDP-11 option?
In-Reply-To: <20190624203815.5B46F18C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190624203815.5B46F18C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <b2313a51-fedc-20ed-364b-5bb927fb3168@gmail.com>

On 06/24/2019 04:38 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> MX11
> Memory Extension Option

If it is not KT-11 then its not memory address extension.

MX-11 and variants are memory boards or systems.

BEst I can do it never appears in my Qbus world so it may be
a board/module level reference to the KT1-11B Memory address
extension (CPU option).

Allison

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Jun 24 16:31:10 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 14:31:10 -0700
Subject: Anyone have any info on the obscure MX11 PDP-11 option?
In-Reply-To: <20190624203815.5B46F18C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190624203815.5B46F18C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <f4f15424-aa63-8566-809f-b11d4fe786a8@bitsavers.org>

It is in the Dick Best Options and Modules List 197503
Steve Rothman is shown as responsible engineer

On 6/24/19 1:38 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> While I asking on the TUHS list about the KS11, someone mentioned the MX11
> Memory Extension Option, described as "enabl[ing] the usage of 128 KW memory
> (18-bit addressing range) ... developed by the Digital CSS (Computer Special
> Systems)".
> 
> I'm not familiar with this


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Jun 24 17:19:03 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 18:19:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Anyone have any info on the obscure MX11 PDP-11 option?
Message-ID: <20190624221903.3E45A18C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Al Kossow

    > It is in the Dick Best Options and Modules List 197503

Ah, thanks for the pointer; I see it's listed as a "Memory Extension
Control" - not sure that tells me much, alas!

Interestingly, it's not in the earlier Options and Modules lists, e.g.
June '74, but the KS11 is in that earlier list, so the MX11's a later
addition.

	Noel

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Jun 24 17:47:20 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 15:47:20 -0700
Subject: Anyone have any info on the obscure MX11 PDP-11 option?
In-Reply-To: <20190624221903.3E45A18C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190624221903.3E45A18C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <836e9b89-d6d1-9044-5881-7ec39adf9fe8@bitsavers.org>

Does anyone know where Steve Rothman is?
I assume this is the same person who wrote the VAX spec.

On 6/24/19 3:19 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>     > From: Al Kossow
> 
>     > It is in the Dick Best Options and Modules List 197503
> 
> Ah, thanks for the pointer; I see it's listed as a "Memory Extension
> Control" - not sure that tells me much, alas!
> 
> Interestingly, it's not in the earlier Options and Modules lists, e.g.
> June '74, but the KS11 is in that earlier list, so the MX11's a later
> addition.
> 
> 	Noel
> 


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Jun 24 20:43:49 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 21:43:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Anyone have any info on the obscure MX11 PDP-11 option?
Message-ID: <20190625014349.E889118C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Al Kossow

    > Does anyone know where Steve Rothman is?

And also Bill Weiske, who's listed as the go-to for the KS11.

	Noel

From sellam.ismail at gmail.com  Mon Jun 24 23:59:55 2019
From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 21:59:55 -0700
Subject: Latest Additions to the Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders Sale
 Inventory
Message-ID: <CAHJBWnTkar47+5C4ETcxNKSWXmpLARPYSC=1r0NOPhk6OuCEFQ@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings Folks!

I have finalized the latest batch of items added to the inventory of my
Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders, and here it is:

Commodore 64
Exatron MM800 Internal Memory
IBM PCjr Power Expansion Attachment
IBM 74F3465 The 3270 Connection
Polaroid PerfectData DS/DD 8" floppy disk (10-pack)
Xidex Precision DSDD 8" Floppy Disks (10-pack)
Diablo Printwheel - APL 10
Diablo Printwheel - Courier 10
Diablo Printwheel - European Elite 12
Diablo Printwheel - OCR A
Diablo Printwheel - Pica 10
Diablo Print Ribbon (Carton of 12)
SmartPrint Printer Sharing Network Add-on Computer Module
Symantec Think C for Macintosh 6.0 (Upgrade)
Hayes Personal Modem 1200
Gravis Mac MouseStick II
Apple Power Mac Processor Upgrade (APMPU)
Orange Micro OrangePC MS-DOS Coprocessor
Radius Full Page Display SE
Corvus Systems Macintosh OmniDrive User Guide
Corvus Systems Qbus Interface
RT-11 System Reference Card
RT-11 System Reference Card
Convergent Technologies WK-100 WorkSlate
Convergent Technologies WorkSlate Travel Task Ware
Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 100 Portable Computer
Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 100 Cassette Interface Cable
TRS-80 Model 100 Calculator
TRS-80 Model 100 Bar Code Drivers
TRS-80 Model 100 Bar Code Writer
TRS-80 Model 100 Executive Calendar
TRS-80 Model 100 Function Plotter
TRS-80 Model 100 Personal Finance
TRS-80 Model 100 Portable Computing with the Model 100
TRS-80 Model 100 SCRIPSIT 100
TRS-80 Model 100 StarBlaze 100
TRS-80 Model 100 Tandy Code
Tandy 102 Owner's Manual/Applications and BASIC Reference Guide
IBM Personal Computer PCjr BASIC Reference
IBM Personal Computer PCjr Guide to Operations
Hands-On BASIC for the IBM PCjr
AST VGA Plus
Tall Tree Systems AT3-P w/JLaser-3 daughterboard
Western Digital WD7000-ASC FASST2 SCSI Controller
Ziatech IEEE 488 Interface for PS/2 Computers
Everex 24E+ External Modem
Epson FX-86e/286e Printer User's Manual
Citizen Color Ribbon
Okidata Okimate 20 Plug 'N Print for IBM PC and Compatibles
Okidata Tractor Feed Option Kit (boxed)
Memorex Epson MX-80 Printer Ribbon
3M DS,HD 5.25" Diskettes (10-pack)
Dysan 100 MD2HD floppy diskette 10-pack
Ohio Scientific 5.25" Mini Floppy Diskette (10-pack)
Verbatim Datalife SS/DD 5.25" Minidisks (7-pack)
Epson E95D0U External 5.25" Disk Drive
Compaq MS-DOS Version 3 Reference Guide
DEC PDP-8/L Instruction List reference card
Osborne dBase II Version 2.3b (manual only)
Altera MAX+plus II Programmable Logic Development System
FHR Industries 1200 Intelligent Modem
Commodore 64
HP 92220R HPIB Right Angle Cable (1ft)
HP10833B HPIB Cable (2m)
SunRize Industries Perfect Sound
Timex-Sinclair 1000
Sinclair ZX81 case
Apple Macintosh Plus (Platinum)
Apple Macintosh SE w/Targus Carrying Case

(Those are two different Commodore 64 units, one has a case "variation".)

Links to the newly arrived items are here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit?pli=1&fbclid=IwAR29aeaPInesPowqSLeq_ElmtOwSThjfRAJyW9T_oN6mnjPPt4wO1CchMGQ#gid=949372371&range=A1

I have discovered the myriad of Facebook vintage computing groups, so I
have begun posting my sale lists there as well.  However, I will always
post notifications of new lists here and on the VCFed forums 24 hours
before I unleash them on the FB groups, which results in a deluge of
activity.  In this way, I give you guys first stab at the action on the new
stuff before the hordes descend upon it.  You are welcome.

As always, please contact me directly by e-mail to inquire about an item.

Thanks!

Sellam

From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Jun 25 05:56:33 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 12:56:33 +0200
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <CAKGyVsUr2Sf+eSJwJKWXAZX9UiyfGgDKZ1DLmH-80B_gHFyXow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8B4C35F7-7B9E-4C62-9011-2FCBE35D372C@comcast.net>
 <3dc3ee54-b2ee-8556-48e0-53d6790338ec@sydex.com>
 <4f13d83e79ed5f56d6d1ddff5d47ecec@alanlee.org>
 <9c5f73e8-f596-eeb7-c26a-fb43af70ae59@sydex.com>
 <0a37f4fab31ff8fd2288105b2ef6a27360f9b0a3.camel@agj.net>
 <6e3e6541-4202-c59d-e861-97e9feac39ea@sydex.com>
 <20190617064928.d4zj4acmofqf4mfs@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAKGyVsUr2Sf+eSJwJKWXAZX9UiyfGgDKZ1DLmH-80B_gHFyXow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFESgeu=jAwe7oU10nvj0jT-tYAuAJ447D+HMWNN5d=kQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 at 12:31, Tony Aiuto via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On a related note, a fun talk about ARM
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2045&v=_6sh097Dk5k

Remarkable. Thanks for the link. Astounding. Very thought-provoking.



-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Jun 25 09:48:44 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 07:48:44 -0700
Subject: Datapoint 8600 system in Little Rock
Message-ID: <cbe1ed4a-6e13-1937-79f5-77d12a3a84bf@bitsavers.org>

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Datapoint-8600-and-Peripherals/192961883648

anyone nearby?

I'd like to get it, but I have no way to pick it up


From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Jun 25 11:20:24 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 09:20:24 -0700
Subject: RSTS collection in the UK
Message-ID: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>

We received this offer, it probably makes more sense for someone in the UK to get the lot.
Is there someone at a collecting institution that would like to take this on? Email me and
I can forward your contact information to them.

"I have a few disk packs available if you need them. (Please note I am in the UK). I also have a range of PDP-11
interface boards, a mix of dual, quad and Unibus. Is there anything in particular that you need? Finally I have a mass
of RSTS related documentation, such as one copy of every edition of the US publication RSTS Porfessional magazine. Plus
copies of RSTS and RT-11 operating system manuals, from RSTS Version 4a (1974) through to Version 10.1 (mid 1990s)."


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Jun 25 11:26:01 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 17:26:01 +0100
Subject: RSTS collection in the UK
In-Reply-To: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
References: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <3cae01d52b72$ae3ac190$0ab044b0$@gmail.com>

Al,

 There is a DEC Legacy group in the UK, started for the DEC Legacy Meetings but now sometimes carries more general e-mails. Some one on there may be able to archive these.
  I don't think there are any museums who have the facilities to take this on. A few would take the stuff and put it in store.
 
Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Al Kossow via
> cctalk
> Sent: 25 June 2019 17:20
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: RSTS collection in the UK
> 
> We received this offer, it probably makes more sense for someone in the UK
> to get the lot.
> Is there someone at a collecting institution that would like to take this on?
> Email me and I can forward your contact information to them.
> 
> "I have a few disk packs available if you need them. (Please note I am in the
> UK). I also have a range of PDP-11 interface boards, a mix of dual, quad and
> Unibus. Is there anything in particular that you need? Finally I have a mass of
> RSTS related documentation, such as one copy of every edition of the US
> publication RSTS Porfessional magazine. Plus copies of RSTS and RT-11
> operating system manuals, from RSTS Version 4a (1974) through to Version
> 10.1 (mid 1990s)."



From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Tue Jun 25 11:50:42 2019
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 17:50:42 +0100
Subject: RSTS collection in the UK
In-Reply-To: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
References: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <a07f038c-fca5-c9db-6cb7-79c31d45e1c8@dunnington.plus.com>

Hi, Al.

This sounds slightly familiar - Jay contacted me a year or two ago about 
a similar lot but the donor never got back to me.

Anyway, I would be happy to collect these on behalf of Jim Austin, for 
the Computer Sheds:  http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/
We'd be particularly interested in the RSTS stuff, as we have very 
little of that.

Please pass on my contact details.

On 25/06/2019 17:20, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> We received this offer, it probably makes more sense for someone in the UK to get the lot.
> Is there someone at a collecting institution that would like to take this on? Email me and
> I can forward your contact information to them.
> 
> "I have a few disk packs available if you need them. (Please note I am in the UK). I also have a range of PDP-11
> interface boards, a mix of dual, quad and Unibus. Is there anything in particular that you need? Finally I have a mass
> of RSTS related documentation, such as one copy of every edition of the US publication RSTS Porfessional magazine. Plus
> copies of RSTS and RT-11 operating system manuals, from RSTS Version 4a (1974) through to Version 10.1 (mid 1990s)."
> 


-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com  Tue Jun 25 12:41:58 2019
From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 18:41:58 +0100
Subject: RSTS collection in the UK
In-Reply-To: <a07f038c-fca5-c9db-6cb7-79c31d45e1c8@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
 <a07f038c-fca5-c9db-6cb7-79c31d45e1c8@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <697D01EB-3DB5-4968-9A85-8A37AF969744@gmail.com>


> On 25 Jun 2019, at 17:50, Pete Turnbull via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi, Al.
> 
> This sounds slightly familiar - Jay contacted me a year or two ago about a similar lot but the donor never got back to me.
> 
> Anyway, I would be happy to collect these on behalf of Jim Austin, for the Computer Sheds:  http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ <http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/>We'd be particularly interested in the RSTS stuff, as we have very little of that.
> 

I too have a load of RSTS docs I?ve been trying to move on for a few years. Antonio was going to take them but ended up in the US so they?re still all in my hallway, you?re welcome to those too!

Cheers

-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection?
t: @binarydinosaurs    f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk


> Please pass on my contact details.
> 
> On 25/06/2019 17:20, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> We received this offer, it probably makes more sense for someone in the UK to get the lot.
>> Is there someone at a collecting institution that would like to take this on? Email me and
>> I can forward your contact information to them.
>> "I have a few disk packs available if you need them. (Please note I am in the UK). I also have a range of PDP-11
>> interface boards, a mix of dual, quad and Unibus. Is there anything in particular that you need? Finally I have a mass
>> of RSTS related documentation, such as one copy of every edition of the US publication RSTS Porfessional magazine. Plus
>> copies of RSTS and RT-11 operating system manuals, from RSTS Version 4a (1974) through to Version 10.1 (mid 1990s)."
> 
> 
> -- 
> Pete
> Pete Turnbull







From brian at quarterbyte.com  Tue Jun 25 15:23:29 2019
From: brian at quarterbyte.com (brian at quarterbyte.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 13:23:29 -0700
Subject: PIC programmer
Message-ID: <CAGBfPWJwTnmuBrofFUTxVemtRWeDkzUHaM9QN-r2hPwrRs5BMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I have, surprisingly, a non IBM 1130 related issue to ask about. I have a
PIC16C55A-04/P 28 pin plastic MPU that I would like to reproduce --- but
don't have a PIC debugger on hand and in fact don't know whether or not the
existing device is code protected. (If it's code protected, then the path
forward is going to be very different).

Does anyone have the ability to check one of the chips that I have here is
code protected so I can see if I should pursue this any further?
Located in the San Francisco Bay Area but can mail a sample chip.

Thanks!
Brian

From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org  Tue Jun 25 19:35:37 2019
From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 19:35:37 -0500
Subject: RSTS collection in the UK
In-Reply-To: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
References: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <2bb9f989-aff3-769b-40bc-7cf18d26af37@thereinhardts.org>

On 6/25/2019 11:20 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> interface boards, a mix of dual, quad and Unibus. Is there anything in particular that you need? Finally I have a mass
> of RSTS related documentation, such as one copy of every edition of the US publication RSTS Porfessional magazine. Plus
> copies of RSTS and RT-11 operating system manuals, from RSTS Version 4a (1974) through to Version 10.1 (mid 1990s)."
>
>
I hope someone scans that RSTS/E documentation.? There isn't a lot of it available online.? Especially earlier version like V06. I wish I was on the other side of the ocean but I'm in Fort Worth, TX

-- 
John H. Reinhardt


From dave at 661.org  Tue Jun 25 19:39:00 2019
From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 00:39:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Origins of nameless semaphores and Apple's non-support thereof
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1906260034510.9068@hermes.661.org>


I recently tripped over the fact that MacOS does not support nameless 
POSIX semaphores.  When attempting to use them, I get a complaint that 
they're deprecated.  I can't fathom why Apple would do that.  I found this 
post explaining it, albeit not very well: 
https://lists.apple.com/archives/darwin-kernel/2009/Apr/msg00010.html. 
It seems that Apple yanked out support, but elsewhere 
(https://intfiction.org/t/macos-frotz-users/41553/5) I'm told that Apple 
did it because BSD 4.4 didn't implement them.  I was fairly sure that it 
did.  Does anyone have a more satisfying answer?


-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Jun 25 20:00:38 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 18:00:38 -0700
Subject: RSTS collection in the UK
In-Reply-To: <2bb9f989-aff3-769b-40bc-7cf18d26af37@thereinhardts.org>
References: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
 <2bb9f989-aff3-769b-40bc-7cf18d26af37@thereinhardts.org>
Message-ID: <c21a9a34-f52d-ffcc-23ba-7485384b81ea@bitsavers.org>



On 6/25/19 5:35 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:

> I hope someone scans that RSTS/E documentation.? There isn't a lot of it available online.
Seriously?

I count 75 manuals under pdp11/rsts on bitsavers


From cmhanson at eschatologist.net  Tue Jun 25 21:42:50 2019
From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 19:42:50 -0700
Subject: Origins of nameless semaphores and Apple's non-support thereof
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1906260034510.9068@hermes.661.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1906260034510.9068@hermes.661.org>
Message-ID: <606BB941-0081-4F90-AAAD-C2776C42D010@eschatologist.net>

On Jun 25, 2019, at 5:39 PM, David Griffith via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> I recently tripped over the fact that MacOS does not support nameless POSIX semaphores.  When attempting to use them, I get a complaint that they're deprecated.  I can't fathom why Apple would do that.  I found this post explaining it, albeit not very well: https://lists.apple.com/archives/darwin-kernel/2009/Apr/msg00010.html. It seems that Apple yanked out support, but elsewhere (https://intfiction.org/t/macos-frotz-users/41553/5) I'm told that Apple did it because BSD 4.4 didn't implement them.  I was fairly sure that it did.  Does anyone have a more satisfying answer?

What do you find incorrect or insufficient about Terry?s explanation in that email to the darwin-kernel list? 

I get that you would like POSIX unnamed semaphores but they aren?t required for conformance and there are specific issues (that Terry relates) that really would have made them difficult to implement in a way that?s both compatible with how they?re used in practice (e.g. casting to pointers and sticking them in shared memory region) and maintaining binary compatibility (a decade?s worth of shipping software at that point that expects sem_t to be a 32-bit type).

  -- Chris


From guykd at optusnet.com.au  Tue Jun 25 21:57:27 2019
From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 12:57:27 +1000
Subject: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFESgeu=jAwe7oU10nvj0jT-tYAuAJ447D+HMWNN5d=kQ@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAKGyVsUr2Sf+eSJwJKWXAZX9UiyfGgDKZ1DLmH-80B_gHFyXow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHRM-RN4hj_86KsS+erk14wvQVN3RU1=c6EFYC4_3-Vvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8B4C35F7-7B9E-4C62-9011-2FCBE35D372C@comcast.net>
 <3dc3ee54-b2ee-8556-48e0-53d6790338ec@sydex.com>
 <4f13d83e79ed5f56d6d1ddff5d47ecec@alanlee.org>
 <9c5f73e8-f596-eeb7-c26a-fb43af70ae59@sydex.com>
 <0a37f4fab31ff8fd2288105b2ef6a27360f9b0a3.camel@agj.net>
 <6e3e6541-4202-c59d-e861-97e9feac39ea@sydex.com>
 <20190617064928.d4zj4acmofqf4mfs@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAKGyVsUr2Sf+eSJwJKWXAZX9UiyfGgDKZ1DLmH-80B_gHFyXow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190626125727.00e368c0@mail.optusnet.com.au>

At 12:56 PM 25/06/2019 +0200, Liam Proven wrote:
>On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 at 12:31, Tony Aiuto via cctalk
><cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> On a related note, a fun talk about ARM
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2045&v=_6sh097Dk5k
>
>Remarkable. Thanks for the link. Astounding. Very thought-provoking.


Yes, it is. Fascinating!
And right now jdownloader is fetching me a local copy, as opposed to
previously not working with that one video for some inexplicable reason.
So thanks for reminding me to try again.

Guy

From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org  Tue Jun 25 22:08:00 2019
From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 22:08:00 -0500
Subject: RSTS collection in the UK
In-Reply-To: <c21a9a34-f52d-ffcc-23ba-7485384b81ea@bitsavers.org>
References: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
 <2bb9f989-aff3-769b-40bc-7cf18d26af37@thereinhardts.org>
 <c21a9a34-f52d-ffcc-23ba-7485384b81ea@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <05d5f1e4-4d31-2bce-690d-7eb7514e4882@thereinhardts.org>

On 6/25/2019 8:00 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>
> On 6/25/19 5:35 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
>
>> I hope someone scans that RSTS/E documentation.? There isn't a lot of it available online.
> Seriously?
>
> I count 75 manuals under pdp11/rsts on bitsavers
>
>
Sounds like a lot, I know (and I've downloaded them all) but for all 3 versions of V06 (A/B/C) there are only 16 manuals total. Some are things like Runoff and TextEdit which are semi generic, but others like the Sysgen manual there is only V06A, nothing for B or C.? Same for the System Manager's Guide.? And the Install notes.? And so forth.? V7 is worse. V7.0 was a major, major change in RSTS/E and there are only seven manuals for it.? Only two relatively minor manuals for 7.2 and that's it.? V8 has only a beta level internals manual.? V9 has a good coverage but tht won't help you for earlier versions much.

This collection in UK manuals for version from 4a to 10.1 That's significant for a RSTS/E fan.? It could be hundreds of manuals total if each version released is represented.


John H. Reinhardt


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Jun 26 02:55:08 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 08:55:08 +0100
Subject: RSTS collection in the UK
In-Reply-To: <05d5f1e4-4d31-2bce-690d-7eb7514e4882@thereinhardts.org>
References: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
 <2bb9f989-aff3-769b-40bc-7cf18d26af37@thereinhardts.org>
 <c21a9a34-f52d-ffcc-23ba-7485384b81ea@bitsavers.org>
 <05d5f1e4-4d31-2bce-690d-7eb7514e4882@thereinhardts.org>
Message-ID: <029d01d52bf4$7a4b2fa0$6ee18ee0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of John H.
> Reinhardt via cctalk
> Sent: 26 June 2019 04:08
> To: Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: RSTS collection in the UK
> 
> On 6/25/2019 8:00 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> >
> > On 6/25/19 5:35 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >> I hope someone scans that RSTS/E documentation.  There isn't a lot of it
> available online.
> > Seriously?
> >
> > I count 75 manuals under pdp11/rsts on bitsavers
> >
> >
> Sounds like a lot, I know (and I've downloaded them all) but for all 3 versions
> of V06 (A/B/C) there are only 16 manuals total. Some are things like Runoff
> and TextEdit which are semi generic, but others like the Sysgen manual there
> is only V06A, nothing for B or C.  Same for the System Manager's Guide.  And
> the Install notes.  And so forth.  V7 is worse. V7.0 was a major, major change
> in RSTS/E and there are only seven manuals for it.  Only two relatively minor
> manuals for 7.2 and that's it.  V8 has only a beta level internals manual.  V9
> has a good coverage but tht won't help you for earlier versions much.
> 
> This collection in UK manuals for version from 4a to 10.1 That's significant for
> a RSTS/E fan.  It could be hundreds of manuals total if each version released
> is represented.
> 
> 
> John H. Reinhardt

Yes, and whilst Jim would keep them safe, they are only accessible there one weekend in two, and not through the week. Could really do with a UK RSTS person to take and scan.

Dave


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Jun 26 09:45:42 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 07:45:42 -0700
Subject: RSTS collection in the UK
In-Reply-To: <029d01d52bf4$7a4b2fa0$6ee18ee0$@gmail.com>
References: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
 <2bb9f989-aff3-769b-40bc-7cf18d26af37@thereinhardts.org>
 <c21a9a34-f52d-ffcc-23ba-7485384b81ea@bitsavers.org>
 <05d5f1e4-4d31-2bce-690d-7eb7514e4882@thereinhardts.org>
 <029d01d52bf4$7a4b2fa0$6ee18ee0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42f49c45-097d-5fba-e3ea-41ec22748a06@bitsavers.org>



On 6/26/19 12:55 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> Could really do with a UK RSTS person to take and scan.

yup
I seriously considered it, but money for shipping wasn't available.



From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org  Wed Jun 26 10:05:18 2019
From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 10:05:18 -0500
Subject: RSTS collection in the UK
In-Reply-To: <42f49c45-097d-5fba-e3ea-41ec22748a06@bitsavers.org>
References: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
 <2bb9f989-aff3-769b-40bc-7cf18d26af37@thereinhardts.org>
 <c21a9a34-f52d-ffcc-23ba-7485384b81ea@bitsavers.org>
 <05d5f1e4-4d31-2bce-690d-7eb7514e4882@thereinhardts.org>
 <029d01d52bf4$7a4b2fa0$6ee18ee0$@gmail.com>
 <42f49c45-097d-5fba-e3ea-41ec22748a06@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <1930662e-d3e3-074f-aab7-fb755965d943@thereinhardts.org>

On 6/26/2019 9:45 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>
> On 6/26/19 12:55 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> Could really do with a UK RSTS person to take and scan.
> yup
> I seriously considered it, but money for shipping wasn't available.
>
>
>
I should know better than to ask, but what was the shipping estimate?

-- 
John H. Reinhardt


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Jun 26 15:00:46 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 21:00:46 +0100
Subject: RSTS collection in the UK
In-Reply-To: <42f49c45-097d-5fba-e3ea-41ec22748a06@bitsavers.org>
References: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
 <2bb9f989-aff3-769b-40bc-7cf18d26af37@thereinhardts.org>
 <c21a9a34-f52d-ffcc-23ba-7485384b81ea@bitsavers.org>
 <05d5f1e4-4d31-2bce-690d-7eb7514e4882@thereinhardts.org>
 <029d01d52bf4$7a4b2fa0$6ee18ee0$@gmail.com>
 <42f49c45-097d-5fba-e3ea-41ec22748a06@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <07be01d52c59$d88f5040$89adf0c0$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Al Kossow via
> cctalk
> Sent: 26 June 2019 15:46
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: RSTS collection in the UK
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/26/19 12:55 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >
> > Could really do with a UK RSTS person to take and scan.
> 
> yup
> I seriously considered it, but money for shipping wasn't available.
> 

 I just don't have the space to store this while scanning....
... and RSTS isn't my area. Could we forward to the UK DecTech list?

Dave


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Jun 26 16:52:00 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 14:52:00 -0700
Subject: RSTS collection in the UK
In-Reply-To: <07be01d52c59$d88f5040$89adf0c0$@gmail.com>
References: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
 <2bb9f989-aff3-769b-40bc-7cf18d26af37@thereinhardts.org>
 <c21a9a34-f52d-ffcc-23ba-7485384b81ea@bitsavers.org>
 <05d5f1e4-4d31-2bce-690d-7eb7514e4882@thereinhardts.org>
 <029d01d52bf4$7a4b2fa0$6ee18ee0$@gmail.com>
 <42f49c45-097d-5fba-e3ea-41ec22748a06@bitsavers.org>
 <07be01d52c59$d88f5040$89adf0c0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ccc15d91-e792-5a29-e80f-54283e81ff54@bitsavers.org>



On 6/26/19 1:00 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
> Could we forward to the UK DecTech list?
> 

Let's see if Pete Turnbull is able to make contact


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Wed Jun 26 18:01:06 2019
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 00:01:06 +0100
Subject: RSTS collection in the UK
In-Reply-To: <ccc15d91-e792-5a29-e80f-54283e81ff54@bitsavers.org>
References: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
 <2bb9f989-aff3-769b-40bc-7cf18d26af37@thereinhardts.org>
 <c21a9a34-f52d-ffcc-23ba-7485384b81ea@bitsavers.org>
 <05d5f1e4-4d31-2bce-690d-7eb7514e4882@thereinhardts.org>
 <029d01d52bf4$7a4b2fa0$6ee18ee0$@gmail.com>
 <42f49c45-097d-5fba-e3ea-41ec22748a06@bitsavers.org>
 <07be01d52c59$d88f5040$89adf0c0$@gmail.com>
 <ccc15d91-e792-5a29-e80f-54283e81ff54@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <9de070c2-b6d2-b252-e59a-d5f4872b2de9@dunnington.plus.com>

On 26/06/2019 22:52, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> On 6/26/19 1:00 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
>> Could we forward to the UK DecTech list?
>
> Let's see if Pete Turnbull is able to make contact

I have, but I've not yet made any arrangement to collect it all.  It 
could be postponed until late July as the donor will be away, so there's 
time to arrange something if anyone can.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

From chd at chdickman.com  Wed Jun 26 20:36:30 2019
From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 21:36:30 -0400
Subject: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
Message-ID: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>

Now that Dyn has been absorbed by Oracle I need a new DNS service for my
vanity domain. I welcome suggestions for a replacement provider.

-chuck

From linimon at lonesome.com  Wed Jun 26 20:48:33 2019
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 01:48:33 +0000
Subject: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190627014833.GA13144@lonesome.com>

On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 09:36:30PM -0400, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> Now that Dyn has been absorbed by Oracle I need a new DNS service for my
> vanity domain. I welcome suggestions for a replacement provider.

I was just investigating free alternatives myself earlier today.  (I
have not yet come up with a conclusion.)

I currently use the free he.net ivp6 tunnel so I may already be set up
for their free DNS service, but I don't know yet.  (I can recommend the
tunnel.)

Most of the articles on the web mention:

  Dynu, afraid.org, Duck DNS, and No-IP

among a few others.  The latter sounds like they are really pushing
their paid model, though.  (OTOH each of the above has paid tiers for
all but the most basic users.)

If you are using pfSense like I am, they already support:

  https://docs.netgate.com/pfsense/en/latest/dns/dynamic-dns.html

I would be happy to hear of actual experiences with any of these.

mcl

From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org  Wed Jun 26 22:02:42 2019
From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 22:02:42 -0500
Subject: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <67997cd0-4253-ed80-76bf-c0fa98c544aa@thereinhardts.org>

On 6/26/2019 8:36 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> Now that Dyn has been absorbed by Oracle I need a new DNS service for my
> vanity domain. I welcome suggestions for a replacement provider.
>
> -chuck
>
I use Duck DNS.? I can't really say much about it though. I just signed up last month.? So far it works fine.? It's free. The DNS name changes fairly soon after my home IP updates.? It works with my Ubiquiti EdgeRouter.


The biggest negative I have so far is that you have to use the xxxxx.duckdns.org hostname.? One that uses a name of your choice (and registration) would be nice.? Do any do that? For free? Or cheap? I didn't dig real deep into providers.

-- 
John H. Reinhardt


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Jun 26 23:05:24 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 22:05:24 -0600
Subject: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <66ceccce-fa78-28b9-4cc2-9b184e423504@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/26/19 7:36 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> Now that Dyn has been absorbed by Oracle I need a new DNS service 
> for my vanity domain. I welcome suggestions for a replacement provider.

How many people are effected by this?

Straw Poll:  Please raise your hand (read: reply) if you are effected.

Please include any features you'd like to see in a replacement.

I see at least the following requirements:

1)  Compatibility with existing equipment.
2)  The ability to use your own domain name.
3)  Be secure.

I ask, because reviewing dyndns-server-perl [1] makes me think that it's 
possible (read: not hard) to host this for other people.

1)  It seems to use HTTP's basic authentication to protect the script 
(interface) that (initiates) the updates.
2)  This can be a glorified gateway into RFC standard Dynamic DNS 
updates.  (Which are trivial to support.)

[1] https://github.com/mnalis/dyndns-server-perl



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at ibm51xx.net  Thu Jun 27 00:54:58 2019
From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 22:54:58 -0700
Subject: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <66ceccce-fa78-28b9-4cc2-9b184e423504@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <66ceccce-fa78-28b9-4cc2-9b184e423504@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <01b401d52cac$db773f40$9265bdc0$@net>

> > Now that Dyn has been absorbed by Oracle I need a new DNS service
> > for my vanity domain. I welcome suggestions for a replacement
> provider.

What is the exact issue here? As I understand it DynDNS is still being offered as a service. Is it because there is no longer a free option?

-Ali


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Jun 27 01:53:32 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:53:32 +0100
Subject: RSTS collection in the UK
In-Reply-To: <9de070c2-b6d2-b252-e59a-d5f4872b2de9@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
 <2bb9f989-aff3-769b-40bc-7cf18d26af37@thereinhardts.org>
 <c21a9a34-f52d-ffcc-23ba-7485384b81ea@bitsavers.org>
 <05d5f1e4-4d31-2bce-690d-7eb7514e4882@thereinhardts.org>
 <029d01d52bf4$7a4b2fa0$6ee18ee0$@gmail.com>
 <42f49c45-097d-5fba-e3ea-41ec22748a06@bitsavers.org>
 <07be01d52c59$d88f5040$89adf0c0$@gmail.com>
 <ccc15d91-e792-5a29-e80f-54283e81ff54@bitsavers.org>
 <9de070c2-b6d2-b252-e59a-d5f4872b2de9@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <01a601d52cb5$094afdf0$1be0f9d0$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull via
> cctalk
> Sent: 27 June 2019 00:01
> To: Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: RSTS collection in the UK
> 
> On 26/06/2019 22:52, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> >
> > On 6/26/19 1:00 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
> >> Could we forward to the UK DecTech list?
> >
> > Let's see if Pete Turnbull is able to make contact
> 
> I have, but I've not yet made any arrangement to collect it all.  It could be
> postponed until late July as the donor will be away, so there's time to arrange
> something if anyone can.
> 

Pete,

 Am I right in thinking Jim has no scanning facilities, and access is still one weekend in two.  

Dave

> --
> Pete
> Pete Turnbull


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Jun 27 01:57:27 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:57:27 +0100
Subject: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <01b401d52cac$db773f40$9265bdc0$@net>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <66ceccce-fa78-28b9-4cc2-9b184e423504@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <01b401d52cac$db773f40$9265bdc0$@net>
Message-ID: <01a801d52cb5$9560a7e0$c021f7a0$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Ali via cctalk
> Sent: 27 June 2019 06:55
> To: 'Grant Taylor' <cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net>; 'General Discussion:
> On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: RE: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
> 
> > > Now that Dyn has been absorbed by Oracle I need a new DNS service
> > > for my vanity domain. I welcome suggestions for a replacement
> > provider.
> 
> What is the exact issue here? As I understand it DynDNS is still being offered
> as a service. Is it because there is no longer a free option?
> 
> -Ali


 I bought a domain from Mythic Beasts. The domain is I think around ?6 a year but includes free dynamic DNS

https://www.mythic-beasts.com/domains

Dave


From mazzinia at tin.it  Thu Jun 27 03:19:24 2019
From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 10:19:24 +0200
Subject: R: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <20190627014833.GA13144@lonesome.com>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190627014833.GA13144@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <003901d52cc1$09d85360$1d88fa20$@tin.it>

I use no-ip, the free version. And it's not particularly pushing the paid
option aside just suggesting it on renewal.
There's an email I don't even remember every how many months, requiring 2
clicks to keep the free subscription active, and that's all

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Mark Linimon
via cctalk
Inviato: gioved? 27 giugno 2019 03:49
A: Charles Dickman; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Oggetto: Re: OT: the end of Dyn DNS

On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 09:36:30PM -0400, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> Now that Dyn has been absorbed by Oracle I need a new DNS service for my
> vanity domain. I welcome suggestions for a replacement provider.

I was just investigating free alternatives myself earlier today.  (I
have not yet come up with a conclusion.)

I currently use the free he.net ivp6 tunnel so I may already be set up
for their free DNS service, but I don't know yet.  (I can recommend the
tunnel.)

Most of the articles on the web mention:

  Dynu, afraid.org, Duck DNS, and No-IP

among a few others.  The latter sounds like they are really pushing
their paid model, though.  (OTOH each of the above has paid tiers for
all but the most basic users.)

If you are using pfSense like I am, they already support:

  https://docs.netgate.com/pfsense/en/latest/dns/dynamic-dns.html

I would be happy to hear of actual experiences with any of these.

mcl


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Thu Jun 27 03:09:11 2019
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 09:09:11 +0100
Subject: RSTS collection in the UK
In-Reply-To: <01a601d52cb5$094afdf0$1be0f9d0$@gmail.com>
References: <275637ee-2943-89d9-0894-614f99241692@bitsavers.org>
 <2bb9f989-aff3-769b-40bc-7cf18d26af37@thereinhardts.org>
 <c21a9a34-f52d-ffcc-23ba-7485384b81ea@bitsavers.org>
 <05d5f1e4-4d31-2bce-690d-7eb7514e4882@thereinhardts.org>
 <029d01d52bf4$7a4b2fa0$6ee18ee0$@gmail.com>
 <42f49c45-097d-5fba-e3ea-41ec22748a06@bitsavers.org>
 <07be01d52c59$d88f5040$89adf0c0$@gmail.com>
 <ccc15d91-e792-5a29-e80f-54283e81ff54@bitsavers.org>
 <9de070c2-b6d2-b252-e59a-d5f4872b2de9@dunnington.plus.com>
 <01a601d52cb5$094afdf0$1be0f9d0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <743635a6-4076-97fc-cfb5-24c4cd17e885@dunnington.plus.com>

On 27/06/2019 07:53, Dave Wade wrote:
> Pete,
> 
>   Am I right in thinking Jim has no scanning facilities, and access is still one weekend in two.

Pretty much.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org  Thu Jun 27 03:38:45 2019
From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (U'll Be King of the Stars)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 09:38:45 +0100
Subject: R: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <003901d52cc1$09d85360$1d88fa20$@tin.it>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190627014833.GA13144@lonesome.com>
 <003901d52cc1$09d85360$1d88fa20$@tin.it>
Message-ID: <8ffae1cb-80fc-0409-27e1-eaf638bc7186@andrewnesbit.org>

I have my DNS records hosted at gandi.net, who are also my registrar.  I
have been using for the last 10-15 years with no problems.

I have heard the that you shouldn't have your register be the same
company as your DNS provider, and I intend to revise this proposition.
If the argument still holds then I would keep gandi.net as my registrar
look for a different DNS service.

I tried a lot of third-party DNS services for about five years before
settling on gandi.net.  Some were very expensive and some were not.
There was no difference in the quality of service and quality of support
between the expensive and inexpensive ones, but I never had any luck
with the free ones.

Andrew

On 27/06/2019 09:19, Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk wrote:
> I use no-ip, the free version. And it's not particularly pushing the paid
> option aside just suggesting it on renewal.
> There's an email I don't even remember every how many months, requiring 2
> clicks to keep the free subscription active, and that's all
> 
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Mark Linimon
> via cctalk
> Inviato: gioved? 27 giugno 2019 03:49
> A: Charles Dickman; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Oggetto: Re: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
> 
> On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 09:36:30PM -0400, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
>> Now that Dyn has been absorbed by Oracle I need a new DNS service for my
>> vanity domain. I welcome suggestions for a replacement provider.
> 
> I was just investigating free alternatives myself earlier today.  (I
> have not yet come up with a conclusion.)
> 
> I currently use the free he.net ivp6 tunnel so I may already be set up
> for their free DNS service, but I don't know yet.  (I can recommend the
> tunnel.)
> 
> Most of the articles on the web mention:
> 
>   Dynu, afraid.org, Duck DNS, and No-IP
> 
> among a few others.  The latter sounds like they are really pushing
> their paid model, though.  (OTOH each of the above has paid tiers for
> all but the most basic users.)
> 
> If you are using pfSense like I am, they already support:
> 
>   https://docs.netgate.com/pfsense/en/latest/dns/dynamic-dns.html
> 
> I would be happy to hear of actual experiences with any of these.
> 
> mcl
> 

-- 
OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0  B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9

From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Jun 27 06:55:18 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 13:55:18 +0200
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFS196K7bfNTBdLRkPraHDzbSaZVCUqegTmWXqxErzbug@mail.gmail.com>

This is *epic*.

https://github.com/stepleton/5100NonExecutableROSDecode/blob/master/WRITEUP.md

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From linimon at lonesome.com  Thu Jun 27 08:23:36 2019
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 13:23:36 +0000
Subject: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <01b401d52cac$db773f40$9265bdc0$@net>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <66ceccce-fa78-28b9-4cc2-9b184e423504@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <01b401d52cac$db773f40$9265bdc0$@net>
Message-ID: <20190627132335.GA12358@lonesome.com>

On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 10:54:58PM -0700, Ali via cctalk wrote:
> As I understand it DynDNS is still being offered as a service. Is it
> because there is no longer a free option?

There has not been a free option for seveal years.  I switched to the
paid version.

But now it seems that having been eaten by Oracle, it is now being
digested.  (I have seen this process happen over and over again with
acquisitions.  The final stage, of selling off whatever is left
afterwards, is "excretion".)

mcl

From cctalk at ibm51xx.net  Thu Jun 27 09:03:39 2019
From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:03:39 -0700
Subject: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <20190627132335.GA12358@lonesome.com>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <66ceccce-fa78-28b9-4cc2-9b184e423504@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <01b401d52cac$db773f40$9265bdc0$@net> <20190627132335.GA12358@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <01c801d52cf1$1fbe66d0$5f3b3470$@net>

> There has not been a free option for seveal years.  I switched to the
> paid version.
> 
> But now it seems that having been eaten by Oracle, it is now being
> digested.  (I have seen this process happen over and over again with
> acquisitions.  The final stage, of selling off whatever is left
> afterwards, is "excretion".)


True that. However, the email I got seems to indicate the service will be
ongoing for a while and speaking from a personal standpoint I paid for a 3
year renewal just a few months back. So unless they are planning on offering
refunds I expect my service to continue for a few more years. By then the
landscape will have changed again. 

One issue with the other providers is the lack of integration - at least for
me. On most of the gear I use the DynDns service is a in HW option. So I
don't have to run clients on my clients to update IPs.

-Ali


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Jun 27 09:30:09 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 10:30:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
Message-ID: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Liam Proven

    > This is *epic*.

Indeed. I was blown away by the complexity of his technique for reading
the digits.

I can't believe there wasn't a much easier technique, though, e.g. using a
logic analyzer and a small program to read through the ROS!

Perhaps the challenge of doing it his way entertained him, though, like
George Mallory's famous line about climbing Everest.

	Noel

From mcquiggi at me.com  Thu Jun 27 09:42:24 2019
From: mcquiggi at me.com (Kevin McQuiggin)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:42:24 -0700
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>

In the early days of cyber crime (it was called ?computer crime? back in the 1980s), fraudsters would purchase an aerosol spray with tiny metal particles in it (I forget what the specific valid use case was, but it was legitimate), and apply the spray to the mag stripe on the back of credit cards, then visually read out the bits with a magnifier.  1s and 0s oriented the tiny metal bits orthogonally, and this could be observed.  Then they would program card blanks with the recovered mag stripe data.  

Mag stripe readers were expensive and hard to acquire in those days, so this was the chosen method of recovering track data from credit cards.

I was a police detective investigating ?Stone Age?, i.e. pre-Internet cyber crime in that era, and saw this for myself by actually spraying a card and then reading out its data.  

Very creative criminals!  

Kevin




> On Jun 27, 2019, at 7:30 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> From: Liam Proven
> 
>> This is *epic*.
> 
> Indeed. I was blown away by the complexity of his technique for reading
> the digits.
> 
> I can't believe there wasn't a much easier technique, though, e.g. using a
> logic analyzer and a small program to read through the ROS!
> 
> Perhaps the challenge of doing it his way entertained him, though, like
> George Mallory's famous line about climbing Everest.
> 
> 	Noel


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 27 09:45:21 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:45:21 -0700
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <d69f254a-12d7-f116-fe63-0d8516f3ac1b@sydex.com>

On 6/27/19 7:30 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>     > From: Liam Proven
> 
>     > This is *epic*.
> 
> Indeed. I was blown away by the complexity of his technique for reading
> the digits.
> 
> I can't believe there wasn't a much easier technique, though, e.g. using a
> logic analyzer and a small program to read through the ROS!
> 
> Perhaps the challenge of doing it his way entertained him, though, like
> George Mallory's famous line about climbing Everest.

Even if one didn't want to get into the innards of the 5100 too deeply,
one could avoid the ambiguity of reading the screen photographically by
intercepting the sweep and video signals.

Lots of ways to skin this cat.

--Chuck

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 27 09:46:17 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 14:46:17 +0000
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFS196K7bfNTBdLRkPraHDzbSaZVCUqegTmWXqxErzbug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCFS196K7bfNTBdLRkPraHDzbSaZVCUqegTmWXqxErzbug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB56089F693828991119429A90A3FD0@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

I love the walk through things. I'd clearly have found a wired, digital, method of doing it ( printer port or such ).
I had a similar problem. I was recovering 4004 code printed out with what looked like a ASR33 print. I did it manually. On looking at the data, I suspect the platen had ruts as the pdf image had faded columns. Most of the letter text was for labels or comments. These were easy to patch things like P and F or E and B. The harder one was C and 0.  The program mostly used decimal but when specifying 4004 registers data, it used for the SRC instructions or nibble data, they were in HEX. C and 0 were used quite often. I was able to find what I believe were all the errors by emulating the 4004 code and finding errors in the operation. I recall finding the last error that was in the display output routine ( related to placement of the decimal point ). I'd put "00" where the original code was "CC". 99+% of the "CC" in the rest of the code were really "00". Most mixed were either "0C" or "C0" so it seemed justified to be "00". It was the only location that "CC" existed in the entire code.
Even the best OCR could not have done as well as a human that understood what the intent was. Understanding the redundancy in the code is a valuable attribute that a human has that would be difficult for a learning program to pick up. I've used similar thinking to fix cassette tape data that had dropouts. It was BASIC code, although tokenized. The redundancy of the good parts of the data made filling in the missing parts easier.
Dwight

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 4:55 AM
To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)

This is *epic*.

https://github.com/stepleton/5100NonExecutableROSDecode/blob/master/WRITEUP.md

--
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From cctalk at snarc.net  Thu Jun 27 03:50:49 2019
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 04:50:49 -0400
Subject: Big news, re: mobile computing history
Message-ID: <e253f286-6e9b-9705-31a0-38f5b049795e@snarc.net>

Hello!

I have a major announcement. :)

It's time for version 2.0 of my book, "Abacus to smartphone: The 
evolution of mobile and portable computers," which I published on dead 
trees four years ago.

This time, it's going to be a (free!) interactive website: the era of 
printed books is behind us.

Please help me raise funds to make this happen. Funders will get 
exclusive access for the first month that the website is live 
(approximately the whole of August 2019).

All of the details (such what's new/different) are here: 
https://fundrazr.com/b1WZ91?ref=ab_74VRia ... please check it out.

Thanks!!

-Evan


From david at kdbarto.org  Thu Jun 27 09:51:57 2019
From: david at kdbarto.org (David)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:51:57 -0700
Subject: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <01c801d52cf1$1fbe66d0$5f3b3470$@net>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <66ceccce-fa78-28b9-4cc2-9b184e423504@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <01b401d52cac$db773f40$9265bdc0$@net> <20190627132335.GA12358@lonesome.com>
 <01c801d52cf1$1fbe66d0$5f3b3470$@net>
Message-ID: <3FA27EC9-56EC-4D0F-9D50-723D1536E75A@kdbarto.org>


> On Jun 27, 2019, at 7:03 AM, Ali via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> There has not been a free option for seveal years.  I switched to the
>> paid version.
>> 
>> But now it seems that having been eaten by Oracle, it is now being
>> digested.  (I have seen this process happen over and over again with
>> acquisitions.  The final stage, of selling off whatever is left
>> afterwards, is "excretion".)
> 
> 
> True that. However, the email I got seems to indicate the service will be
> ongoing for a while and speaking from a personal standpoint I paid for a 3
> year renewal just a few months back. So unless they are planning on offering
> refunds I expect my service to continue for a few more years. By then the
> landscape will have changed again. 
> 
> One issue with the other providers is the lack of integration - at least for
> me. On most of the gear I use the DynDns service is a in HW option. So I
> don't have to run clients on my clients to update IPs.
> 
> -Ali
> 

From what I can determine the paid service will continue, it is the free service
that is being stopped. Kinda sad really. I used to (until this happened) recommend
dyn as a good service to use. Nice to see the recommendations for others popping
up here.

Time to do a little research.

I?m paid for the next 5 years with Dyn. At that time I?ll have to re-evaluate my options.

	David


From ethan at 757.org  Thu Jun 27 09:57:07 2019
From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 10:57:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1906271056350.10932@users.757.org>

> Mag stripe readers were expensive and hard to acquire in those days, so 
> this was the chosen method of recovering track data from credit cards.

Readers were cheap. Writers were expensive and hard to get.

 		- Ethan




From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Thu Jun 27 10:10:24 2019
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 17:10:24 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1906271659110.7228@linuxserv.home>

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>    > From: Liam Proven
>
>    > This is *epic*.
>
> Indeed. I was blown away by the complexity of his technique for reading
> the digits.
>
> I can't believe there wasn't a much easier technique, though, e.g. using a
> logic analyzer and a small program to read through the ROS!

That's what I have suggested him, but he wanted to test his algorithm on 
this project, and all I can say is wow :-)
The "ordinary" way of reading the Executable ROS contents is to put the 
machine into single-step mode and press RESTART. This effectively enables 
access to the ROS contents via the address and data bus on the backplane. 
You then force the upper address bits from outside (it's an open-collector 
bus), i.e. in increments of 1024 bytes, and sample the 1024 byte block 
from the data bus along with the lowest 10 address bits. The caveat is 
that the display controller will be enabled and permanently accesses the first 
1024 bytes of the memory for the screen display.
I had read the contents of my 5110 Executable ROS modules just like Tom, 
but I used normal image post-processing and OCR - all that many years ago 
and therefore with a lot of manual work involved ;-) But that was 
successful at the end and lead to a functional 5110 emulator.

Christian


>
> Perhaps the challenge of doing it his way entertained him, though, like
> George Mallory's famous line about climbing Everest.
>
> 	Noel
>
>

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Thu Jun 27 10:19:38 2019
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 17:19:38 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <3FA27EC9-56EC-4D0F-9D50-723D1536E75A@kdbarto.org>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <66ceccce-fa78-28b9-4cc2-9b184e423504@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <01b401d52cac$db773f40$9265bdc0$@net> <20190627132335.GA12358@lonesome.com>
 <01c801d52cf1$1fbe66d0$5f3b3470$@net>
 <3FA27EC9-56EC-4D0F-9D50-723D1536E75A@kdbarto.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1906271712330.7228@linuxserv.home>

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019, david at kdbarto.org wrote:
> From what I can determine the paid service will continue, it is the free 
> service that is being stopped. Kinda sad really. I used to (until this

The free service from dyndns.org had been stopped several years ago 
(somewhere between 2012 and 2014). I know that because I was forced to 
look for a free alternative.

Christian

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Jun 27 10:21:36 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 09:21:36 -0600
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 8:42 AM Kevin McQuiggin via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> In the early days of cyber crime (it was called ?computer crime? back in
> the 1980s), fraudsters would purchase an aerosol spray with tiny metal
> particles in it (I forget what the specific valid use case was, but it was
> legitimate), and apply the spray to the mag stripe on the back of credit
> cards, then visually read out the bits with a magnifier.  1s and 0s
> oriented the tiny metal bits orthogonally, and this could be observed.
> Then they would program card blanks with the recovered mag stripe data.
>
> Mag stripe readers were expensive and hard to acquire in those days, so
> this was the chosen method of recovering track data from credit cards.
>

Back when I got to school and I was hanging around the computer room on
campus (back when it was THE room on campus with computers), I saw this
half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what it was for. The
on-staff operator took a mag tape off the rack, opened it up and set the
end of the tape on the table. She then took the fob and placed it on the
end of the tape and all the iron filings that were suspended in the liquid
inside the fob aligned to the magnetic fields of the tape. They used it to
tell the difference between 800, 1600 and 6250 bps tapes so they could
handle the tapes correctly (can't recall if there were two tape drives, or
if there were manual switches). I asked how she knew the difference, and
she said that after you do enough of them, you can tell by a glance. When
she started, her boss had given her a bunch of segments of tape of known
density to look at. After playing with it for a few minutes, and sometimes
referring back to them, she got the hang of it, which sounds a bit like
part of the story posted earlier in this thread.

I've also heard people tell stories of using this fob to find the end of
the marks and records on mag tape to splice together tapes that had become
broken and ruined (so they'd cut the damaged records out at record
boundaries to recover at least some of the data on ANSI formatted tapes). I
don't know if this was a tall tale designed to impress over a beer, or the
sad confessions of someone that had gone through a lot of pain and needed
to share...

Warner

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Thu Jun 27 10:30:08 2019
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 08:30:08 -0700
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F9AD90F7-B469-42B0-BFD0-3F717A1DF3CC@nf6x.net>



> On Jun 27, 2019, at 8:21 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Back when I got to school and I was hanging around the computer room on
> campus (back when it was THE room on campus with computers), I saw this
> half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what it was for. The
> on-staff operator took a mag tape off the rack, opened it up and set the
> end of the tape on the table. She then took the fob and placed it on the
> end of the tape and all the iron filings that were suspended in the liquid
> inside the fob aligned to the magnetic fields of the tape.

I don't recall seeing one of those in either of the computer rooms I worked in as a student back in the late 1980s. I would love to get my hands on one (or make one?) now.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Jun 27 10:37:51 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 08:37:51 -0700
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a39b036f-5b02-f639-74cb-e1b5c9452a99@bitsavers.org>

It is true. Inter-block gaps are huge and easy to spot/splice.
That is why writing short tape blocks wastes so much tape.

On 6/27/19 8:21 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:

> I've also heard people tell stories of using this fob to find the end of
> the marks and records on mag tape to splice together tapes that had become
> broken and ruined (so they'd cut the damaged records out at record
> boundaries to recover at least some of the data on ANSI formatted tapes). I
> don't know if this was a tall tale designed to impress over a beer, or the
> sad confessions of someone that had gone through a lot of pain and needed
> to share...
> 
> Warner
> 


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Jun 27 10:43:15 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 08:43:15 -0700
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e005284e-3254-fbce-41e8-9126e5af1fdc@bitsavers.org>



On 6/27/19 8:21 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
> I saw this
> half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what it was for.

http://qicreader.blogspot.com/p/track-visualization.html

shows a couple of them



From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Jun 27 10:46:15 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 09:46:15 -0600
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <e005284e-3254-fbce-41e8-9126e5af1fdc@bitsavers.org>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e005284e-3254-fbce-41e8-9126e5af1fdc@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfodYTs13J-t1dT9uwxee1X-k3tH8ARHwFNL1Kwp-F9O6A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 9:42 AM Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>
>
> On 6/27/19 8:21 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
> > I saw this
> > half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what it was for.
>
> http://qicreader.blogspot.com/p/track-visualization.html
>
> shows a couple of them
>

Yea, the plastiform magnetic viewer was the thing that I saw. Nice article,
including pictures of the bits on a credit card...

Warner

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Jun 27 10:55:47 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 10:55:47 -0500
Subject: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5D14E703.9030700@pico-systems.com>

On 06/26/2019 08:36 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> Now that Dyn has been absorbed by Oracle I need a new DNS service for my
> vanity domain. I welcome suggestions for a replacement provider.
>
> -chuck
>
I use Network Solutions, they are a bit expensive, though.  
Godaddy also provides that service.  Don't go with the 
cheapest, they could go out of business anytime.  My 
secondary DNS provider did just that, a month after I paid 
up for 2 years.

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 27 11:09:43 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 09:09:43 -0700
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfodYTs13J-t1dT9uwxee1X-k3tH8ARHwFNL1Kwp-F9O6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e005284e-3254-fbce-41e8-9126e5af1fdc@bitsavers.org>
 <CANCZdfodYTs13J-t1dT9uwxee1X-k3tH8ARHwFNL1Kwp-F9O6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <84d37124-c1ab-413f-a97d-3868a55aedb1@sydex.com>

I still use KyRead (older 70s era versions were Magnasee and Visomag),
which are applied directly to the magnetic medium.  Basically a mixture
of micron-sized pyrolytic iron powder and an inert, rapidly-evaporating
carrier.   Shake the bottle up and drop some on the medium.  As the
carrier evaporates the magnetic features become visible.

What hit the vendors of such stuff was the Montreal protocol ban on
CFCs, such as Freon TF.  Kyros adapted initially by using an HCFC, but
as those were sunsetted, went to some sort of ether.  You can still get
the stuff.  Be prepared to be shocked on shipping charges.

I've suggested to an overseas friend that a mixture of methanol and
pyrolytic iron powder might work without damaging the medium.  He
reports that it works, but the methanol does take a bit of time to
evaporate.

The viewing films aren't terribly useful for magnetic tapes, but do show
the features of a credit-card magnetic stripe (lower bit density).  But
get the Japanese film, not the common green stuff, as it's not very
sensitive.

Mostly what I use the Kyread for here is separating 7- from 9-track
tapes and verifying that a tape had been degaussed.

Here, for example is what a 7-track tape looks like using a simple
webcam to take the photo:

https://i.imgur.com/wKuTXZH.jpg

--Chuck


On 6/27/19 8:46 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 9:42 AM Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> On 6/27/19 8:21 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
>>> I saw this
>>> half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what it was for.
>>
>> http://qicreader.blogspot.com/p/track-visualization.html
>>
>> shows a couple of them
>>
> 
> Yea, the plastiform magnetic viewer was the thing that I saw. Nice article,
> including pictures of the bits on a credit card...
> 
> Warner
> 


-- 
--Chuck

Sent from my digital computer

From sophaskins at sophaskins.net  Thu Jun 27 11:15:12 2019
From: sophaskins at sophaskins.net (Sophie Haskins)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 16:15:12 +0000
Subject: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <5D14E703.9030700@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5D14E703.9030700@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <DM5PR1801MB196183D58801D37FF1E6EACCABFD0@DM5PR1801MB1961.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Jon Elson via cctalk
> Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 11:56 AM
> To: Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com>; General at ezwind.net;
> Discussion@ <On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
> 
> On 06/26/2019 08:36 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> > Now that Dyn has been absorbed by Oracle I need a new DNS service for
> > my vanity domain. I welcome suggestions for a replacement provider.
> >
> > -chuck
> >
> I use Network Solutions, they are a bit expensive, though.
> Godaddy also provides that service.  Don't go with the cheapest, they could go
> out of business anytime.  My secondary DNS provider did just that, a month
> after I paid up for 2 years.
> 
> Jon

Though they may score no better than Oracle on some folks "companies to avoid" list, I use Google as my registrar https://domains.google.com and they do free dynamic DNS for domains you run with them supporting a handful of client protocols (https://support.google.com/domains/answer/6147083) - I use dyndns2 coming from my EdgeRouter Lite, so don't need a program running on a desktop and it has been quite nice.

Sophie

From couryhouse at aol.com  Thu Jun 27 11:27:32 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 16:27:32 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <84d37124-c1ab-413f-a97d-3868a55aedb1@sydex.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e005284e-3254-fbce-41e8-9126e5af1fdc@bitsavers.org>
 <CANCZdfodYTs13J-t1dT9uwxee1X-k3tH8ARHwFNL1Kwp-F9O6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <84d37124-c1ab-413f-a97d-3868a55aedb1@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <1156790374.577233.1561652852208@mail.yahoo.com>

In days old olde - -? ?we? used? to? use? liquid stuff like this? when? splicing? ?video? tape? too...? ? It? would? shoe? the head? scan lines? Ed#
In a message dated 6/27/2019 9:09:50 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

I still use KyRead (older 70s era versions were Magnasee and Visomag),
which are applied directly to the magnetic medium.? Basically a mixture
of micron-sized pyrolytic iron powder and an inert, rapidly-evaporating
carrier.? Shake the bottle up and drop some on the medium.? As the
carrier evaporates the magnetic features become visible.

What hit the vendors of such stuff was the Montreal protocol ban on
CFCs, such as Freon TF.? Kyros adapted initially by using an HCFC, but
as those were sunsetted, went to some sort of ether.? You can still get
the stuff.? Be prepared to be shocked on shipping charges.

I've suggested to an overseas friend that a mixture of methanol and
pyrolytic iron powder might work without damaging the medium.? He
reports that it works, but the methanol does take a bit of time to
evaporate.

The viewing films aren't terribly useful for magnetic tapes, but do show
the features of a credit-card magnetic stripe (lower bit density).? But
get the Japanese film, not the common green stuff, as it's not very
sensitive.

Mostly what I use the Kyread for here is separating 7- from 9-track
tapes and verifying that a tape had been degaussed.

Here, for example is what a 7-track tape looks like using a simple
webcam to take the photo:

https://i.imgur.com/wKuTXZH.jpg

--Chuck


On 6/27/19 8:46 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 9:42 AM Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> On 6/27/19 8:21 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
>>> I saw this
>>> half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what it was for.
>>
>> http://qicreader.blogspot.com/p/track-visualization.html
>>
>> shows a couple of them
>>
> 
> Yea, the plastiform magnetic viewer was the thing that I saw. Nice article,
> including pictures of the bits on a credit card...
> 
> Warner
> 


-- 
--Chuck

Sent from my digital computer


From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Jun 27 11:28:22 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:28:22 -0500
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5D14EEA6.4070302@pico-systems.com>

On 06/27/2019 10:21 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
>
> Back when I got to school and I was hanging around the computer room on
> campus (back when it was THE room on campus with computers), I saw this
> half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what it was for. The
> on-staff operator took a mag tape off the rack, opened it up and set the
> end of the tape on the table. She then took the fob and placed it on the
> end of the tape and all the iron filings that were suspended in the liquid
> inside the fob aligned to the magnetic fields of the tape. They used it to
> tell the difference between 800, 1600 and 6250 bps tapes so they could
> handle the tapes correctly
800 BPI tapes had no recording over the BOT marker.  1600, 
3200 and 6250 tapes had different tracks with a burst of 
ones and zeroes across the marker, that uniquely identified 
the density.
It had to be a really SIMPLE scheme as the drive itself (not 
the formatter) needed to detect this and set various 
circuits correctly, like read preamp gain and slicer threshold.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Jun 27 11:32:59 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:32:59 -0500
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <F9AD90F7-B469-42B0-BFD0-3F717A1DF3CC@nf6x.net>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <F9AD90F7-B469-42B0-BFD0-3F717A1DF3CC@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <5D14EFBB.9000608@pico-systems.com>

On 06/27/2019 10:30 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:
> I don't recall seeing one of those in either of the computer rooms I worked in as a student back in the late 1980s. I would love to get my hands on one (or make one?) now.
>
One brand of a liquid you put on the tape is MagnaSee.
If you google "magnetic tape viewer" they have pictures of 
what I think the earlier poster described.

Jon

From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Jun 27 12:03:35 2019
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 12:03:35 -0500
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <5D14EFBB.9000608@pico-systems.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <F9AD90F7-B469-42B0-BFD0-3F717A1DF3CC@nf6x.net>
 <5D14EFBB.9000608@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <20190627170349.F39922740B@mx1.ezwind.net>

At 11:32 AM 6/27/2019, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>If you google "magnetic tape viewer" they have pictures of what I think the earlier poster described.

I see quite a few on eBay and Amazon.  Looks like you just need to 
pick a Japanese one?  What's the distinguishing characteristic of a
better one?  It'll see mag tape marks like the liquid does?  
Or I would assume the liquid is much more high resolution.

- John


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 27 12:20:46 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 10:20:46 -0700
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <20190627170349.F39922740B@mx1.ezwind.net>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <F9AD90F7-B469-42B0-BFD0-3F717A1DF3CC@nf6x.net>
 <5D14EFBB.9000608@pico-systems.com>
 <20190627170349.F39922740B@mx1.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <3e1b734e-c85b-91d5-705d-7256da15e513@sydex.com>

On 6/27/19 10:03 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
> At 11:32 AM 6/27/2019, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>> If you google "magnetic tape viewer" they have pictures of what I think the earlier poster described.
> 
> I see quite a few on eBay and Amazon.  Looks like you just need to 
> pick a Japanese one?  What's the distinguishing characteristic of a
> better one?  It'll see mag tape marks like the liquid does?  
> Or I would assume the liquid is much more high resolution.

I've not had any luck using the gold-colored Japanese film on magtape.
Magnetic stripes yes, but not tapes.

--Chuck


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Thu Jun 27 12:56:39 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:56:39 -0600
Subject: R: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <8ffae1cb-80fc-0409-27e1-eaf638bc7186@andrewnesbit.org>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190627014833.GA13144@lonesome.com>
 <003901d52cc1$09d85360$1d88fa20$@tin.it>
 <8ffae1cb-80fc-0409-27e1-eaf638bc7186@andrewnesbit.org>
Message-ID: <e51d70cc-42f9-af54-dd6c-9812276d1ddd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/27/19 2:38 AM, U'll Be King of the Stars via cctalk wrote:
> I have heard the that you shouldn't have your register be the same 
> company as your DNS provider, and I intend to revise this proposition. 
> If the argument still holds then I would keep gandi.net as my registrar 
> look for a different DNS service.

I've not heard that myself.

But I can see how people might say that in an effort to distribute eggs 
across more baskets.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Thu Jun 27 14:19:13 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 13:19:13 -0600
Subject: DNS and Registrar
In-Reply-To: <a26c2c54-0c2f-9292-62b0-f56089101ebf@jwsss.com>
References: <a26c2c54-0c2f-9292-62b0-f56089101ebf@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <2b370507-514d-ede3-3e5f-9edf025c6261@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/27/19 12:53 PM, jim stephens wrote:
> They don't have to be combined.

Agreed.

I've been running DNS servers for about 20 years.  I /always/ prefer to 
run my own DNS servers if I can.

I have never run across a situation where I was unable to do so for 
/technical/ reasons.  I have had clients that /chose/ to /not/ host 
their own DNS for a /business/ reason.

> I have a friend running his and my DNS on a server at his house with two 
> DSL feeds for good measure, one is primary DNS for our domains, second 
> one is published as the secondary.

*nod*

I'd worry about DSL circuits and stability for DNS.  But it will 
probably work > 98% of the time.  If you're comfortable with it, more 
power to you.

I would likely do something more like I'm doing now, run the master name 
server (MNAME field in the SOA record) on the DSL and have somebody else 
with a more robust connection (DSL had issues where I'm from) do a slave 
zone transfer and be the listed Name Servers (NS records) that the world 
talks to.

I actually do that now with my VPS being the MNAME server and my VPS 
provider doing slave zone transfers off of me.

Note how the registrar is not part of that mix.  ;-)

> The biggest thing to watch for is the lax rules for transfering 
> domains.? There was a problem with that, but most registrars allow locks 
> now that impede the movement of domains w/o a bit of work.

That sounds like you're talking about moving domains between registrars, 
which is decidedly different than and independent of where DNS is hosted.

Admittedly the registrar has to point (delegate) to the DNS hosting 
provider.  But it's fairly easy to move domains between registrars 
without even logging into a portal at the DNS host.

> Used to take a couple of emails to highjack a domain, as there wasn't 
> even a notification to verify that the transfer process email was 
> requested by the owner.

Ya.  Registrars have had some deficiencies over the years.  I think they 
are getting better.

> You are strongly encouraged to use a third party "professional" DNS 
> service, but it only really need to be up reliably.

~whistling~ ? ~quiet~ ? I'm sorry, did you say something?  No.  Never 
mind.  I'll go back to what I was doing.  ?  ~whistling~

I mean that as a joke.  I let a LOT of what companies that are trying to 
sell to me go in one ear, sanity check it, and then go out the other ear.

I'm of the opinion that a static IP is the biggest requirement for 
/most/ DNS service.  I.e. somewhere to have the registrar delegate the 
DNS to.

Beyond that, I'm happy to delegate sub-domains to people on dynamic IPs 
if they want them.

It's possible to put DNS a LOT of places that don't qualify as "Best 
Practice".  Most of them will work most of the time.

> We have the dual providers for the node my friend runs, as we know from 
> the phone companies and providers that though the DNS is over the same 
> 12 pair wire into his house (another trick), the CO actually has the 
> DNS switches on different racks and UPS's.  Which isn't a bad precaution.

That's probably okay for most things.  But it's still subject to Backhoe 
Bob and the fade that he can induce.

That's why I have my master that I can do anything and everything I want 
to, and outsource to slave secondaries.  Linode, my VPS provider, has 
five different DNS servers that (I belie) are geographically diverse. 
It will be quite a bit harder to take out all five of their DNS servers. 
  Plus, I don't have to pay for connectivity in five different 
locations.  ;-)

I'm curious, you said DSL.  But that could be anything from 1.5 Mbps 
ADSL to SDSL to VDSL.  Each of which have different capabilities and 
SLAs.  Other than the backhoe fade taking out both connections at the 
same time, higher quality DSL with SLAs is probably okay to do.

I think the official recommendation for big (think root level) DNS 
servers is to have each server in a different network, where network is 
defined as /24 (or larger), preferably under different ASNs.

But that's not a /requirement/, especially for smaller DNS operators.

> thanks

You're welcome.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cramcram at gmail.com  Thu Jun 27 10:52:35 2019
From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 08:52:35 -0700
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <F9AD90F7-B469-42B0-BFD0-3F717A1DF3CC@nf6x.net>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <F9AD90F7-B469-42B0-BFD0-3F717A1DF3CC@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CAC20j8RquK1jS1gLQN7=t9MZ7B3Vz=X=wicmFMKdPXfP2=O=nA@mail.gmail.com>

Look at  http://www.tapeheads.net/showthread.php?t=39958

Marc

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 8:30 AM Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On Jun 27, 2019, at 8:21 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Back when I got to school and I was hanging around the computer room on
> > campus (back when it was THE room on campus with computers), I saw this
> > half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what it was for. The
> > on-staff operator took a mag tape off the rack, opened it up and set the
> > end of the tape on the table. She then took the fob and placed it on the
> > end of the tape and all the iron filings that were suspended in the
> liquid
> > inside the fob aligned to the magnetic fields of the tape.
>
> I don't recall seeing one of those in either of the computer rooms I
> worked in as a student back in the late 1980s. I would love to get my hands
> on one (or make one?) now.
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
> http://www.nf6x.net/
>
>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu Jun 27 15:52:11 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 16:52:11 -0400
Subject: Identifying some boards
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUz8VAP9garCOevSS8Sv=HvREW88uoj+M3Zes_Wr9J6adA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUz8VAP9garCOevSS8Sv=HvREW88uoj+M3Zes_Wr9J6adA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudifCrRubEKrpQ00eM1hwBUgXVtKQuWVNCrDfuXXOQSaQ@mail.gmail.com>

These look like they're from 486 era file server hardware.


On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 11:16 AM Kyle Owen via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> I picked up these boards many weeks ago, but haven't photographed them
> until recently. Some of them are pretty disgusting, but some of the others
> look alright.
>
> Anyone have any idea what these came out of? Some are labeled Gould, others
> are labeled Encore.
>
> http://imgur.com/a/d9iK9qb
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kyle
>

From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org  Thu Jun 27 18:09:47 2019
From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:09:47 -0500
Subject: R: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <e51d70cc-42f9-af54-dd6c-9812276d1ddd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190627014833.GA13144@lonesome.com>
 <003901d52cc1$09d85360$1d88fa20$@tin.it>
 <8ffae1cb-80fc-0409-27e1-eaf638bc7186@andrewnesbit.org>
 <e51d70cc-42f9-af54-dd6c-9812276d1ddd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <ffec78b5-2887-cdf6-6baf-63a1770ab6cf@thereinhardts.org>

On 6/27/2019 12:56 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> On 6/27/19 2:38 AM, U'll Be King of the Stars via cctalk wrote:
>> I have heard the that you shouldn't have your register be the same company as your DNS provider, and I intend to revise this proposition. If the argument still holds then I would keep gandi.net as my registrar look for a different DNS service.
>
> I've not heard that myself.
>
> But I can see how people might say that in an effort to distribute eggs across more baskets.
>
>
>
What I've usually heard is don't have your domain registrar also be your site host.? Like GoDaddy.? Apparently some people have had problems with the host not letting them move the name registration when switching hosting providers.? Or vice versa. I don't have any experience with that. I've either self hosted or, like now, have co-located hardware.

-- 
John H. Reinhardt


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Thu Jun 27 20:27:51 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 19:27:51 -0600
Subject: R: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <ffec78b5-2887-cdf6-6baf-63a1770ab6cf@thereinhardts.org>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190627014833.GA13144@lonesome.com>
 <003901d52cc1$09d85360$1d88fa20$@tin.it>
 <8ffae1cb-80fc-0409-27e1-eaf638bc7186@andrewnesbit.org>
 <e51d70cc-42f9-af54-dd6c-9812276d1ddd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <ffec78b5-2887-cdf6-6baf-63a1770ab6cf@thereinhardts.org>
Message-ID: <9e3ea26b-0cbf-8d51-d651-6b634adc5a72@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/27/19 5:09 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
> What I've usually heard is don't have your domain registrar also be your 
> site host.? Like GoDaddy.

?

> Apparently some people have had problems with the host not letting 
> them move the name registration when switching hosting providers. 
> Or vice versa.

Ah.  Vendor lock in.

I'm guessing that people buy packages that are only valid as a complete 
package.  So when you try to break the package, everything in the 
package vaporizes.  Much like triple play TV / Internet Phone from the 
Cable / Phone company.

> I don't have any experience with that. I've either self hosted or, 
> like now, have co-located hardware.

:-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Fri Jun 28 03:46:54 2019
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 09:46:54 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: DNS and Registrar
In-Reply-To: <2b370507-514d-ede3-3e5f-9edf025c6261@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <a26c2c54-0c2f-9292-62b0-f56089101ebf@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <01R8EG3P4QVO8WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>

Grant Taylor wrote:
>
> That's why I have my master that I can do anything and everything I want 
> to, and outsource to slave secondaries.  Linode, my VPS provider, has 
> five different DNS servers that (I belie) are geographically diverse. 
> It will be quite a bit harder to take out all five of their DNS servers. 
>   Plus, I don't have to pay for connectivity in five different 
> locations.  ;-)
>

I have issues with customers of (or possibly "customers" of) Linode regularly
probing my network.  On complaining to Linode, the response I get is more or
less "oh they're entitled to do that".  Linode distributes the ip addresses
responsible for this activity across various netblocks and moves them from
time to time so my response is to filter out anything to do with Linode from
here.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 04:15:43 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:15:43 +0200
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 17:21, Warner Losh via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I saw this
> half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what it was for.

If I may just say -- only about 5% of humanity know how big that is. I
don't. I don't even know if a half a dollar is a note or a coin, and
that's without getting extra-pedantic and pointing out that about a
dozen countries call their currencies the "dollar".

:-(


--
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 04:17:52 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:17:52 +0200
Subject: Identifying some boards
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudifCrRubEKrpQ00eM1hwBUgXVtKQuWVNCrDfuXXOQSaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUz8VAP9garCOevSS8Sv=HvREW88uoj+M3Zes_Wr9J6adA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudifCrRubEKrpQ00eM1hwBUgXVtKQuWVNCrDfuXXOQSaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCECftDWLB5dyork18Rd6PLgo7hTxf0hSG0qXq_DNBqYCg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 23:11, Bill Degnan via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> These look like they're from 486 era file server hardware.

Not even slightly, IMHO.

They're from 1989. That is the year the 80486 was first introduced, so
too early, and also huge wide slots like that aren't from any kind of
Intel box I've ever seen.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From jfoust at threedee.com  Fri Jun 28 07:02:42 2019
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:02:42 -0500
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190628120254.998024E789@mx2.ezwind.net>

At 04:15 AM 6/28/2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> I don't even know if a half a dollar is a note or a coin, and
>that's without getting extra-pedantic and pointing out that about a
>dozen countries call their currencies the "dollar".

If you were a real pedant, you would've provided a list of 
dimensions of their half-dollar coins (or bills) in several 
common systems of measurement.

- John


From db at db.net  Fri Jun 28 07:10:29 2019
From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:10:29 -0400
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <20190628120254.998024E789@mx2.ezwind.net>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190628120254.998024E789@mx2.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <20190628121029.GB73779@night.db.net>

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 07:02:42AM -0500, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
> At 04:15 AM 6/28/2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> > I don't even know if a half a dollar is a note or a coin, and
> >that's without getting extra-pedantic and pointing out that about a
> >dozen countries call their currencies the "dollar".
> 
> If you were a real pedant, you would've provided a list of 
> dimensions of their half-dollar coins (or bills) in several 
> common systems of measurement.

half a U.S. dollar is about 3.6 barley corns.

> 
> - John

P.S. Or about (Canadian) 2.7 barley corns.

- Diane
-- 
- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Fri Jun 28 09:24:09 2019
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:24:09 -0700
Subject: Emulex SC11 Documentation Wanted
Message-ID: <71657866-1E89-4CC8-81F5-9DCD40BFDB27@nf6x.net>

I'm looking for documentation covering a board set which came with my new PDP-11/34A. It looks like an Emulex SC11 disk controller, but it appears to be a newer version than what is covered in the 1979 manual scan which I found on Bitsavers. I have pictures of the board set on my blog:

http://www.nf6x.net/2019/06/emulex-sc11-disk-controller-documentation-wanted/


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Jun 28 10:32:19 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:32:19 -0700
Subject: Datapoint 8600 system in Little Rock
In-Reply-To: <cbe1ed4a-6e13-1937-79f5-77d12a3a84bf@bitsavers.org>
References: <cbe1ed4a-6e13-1937-79f5-77d12a3a84bf@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <a07c128e-9080-8004-4deb-17db825b38d8@bitsavers.org>

Did anyone on the list end up getting it?

On 6/25/19 7:48 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Datapoint-8600-and-Peripherals/192961883648
> 
> anyone nearby?
> 
> I'd like to get it, but I have no way to pick it up
> 


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Jun 28 11:57:37 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 09:57:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece"  Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR 
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>

>> I saw this half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what it 
>> was for.

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> If I may just say -- only about 5% of humanity know how big that is. I
> don't. I don't even know if a half a dollar is a note or a coin, and
> that's without getting extra-pedantic and pointing out that about a
> dozen countries call their currencies the "dollar".
> :-(

Oh, FAR FAR FAR less than 5%.
Most residents of USA haven't seen a half dollar or "50 cent piece" in 
decades.  They are as much of an oddity as the $2 bill.  They are 
nominally still in circulation, most recent being JFK, but I think that 
they stopped making them in 2002, and there are federal vaults full of 
uncirculated pre-2002 coins.  Most recent has a portrait of Kennedy. 
They are 30.61mm diameter, which is the largest relatively recent 
USA coin (not counting the long discontinued 38.1mm SILVER DOLLAR)

You could have just ASSUMED THAT IT WOULD BE logarithmically between a 
quarter[dollar] (24.26mm) and a dollar coin (26.5mm).  That would be 
completely WRONG, unless you use the 38.1mm ancient "silver dollar", but 
hardly a problem.

"50 pence coin" would be CLOSE ENOUGH.
Actually, for THIS purpose, "large coin" is as accurate as you need. 
Just as I am not at all familiar with British currency, that hasn't 
dampened my appreciation of British TV, such as Doctor Who and a variety 
of Brit-coms.


"Silver dollar" used to be a large coin. (38.1mm)  It was the standard for 
casinos.  When it was discontinued (1935), the casinos started to mint 
their own chips/tokens as a replacement.  There was a brief attempt to 
revive the silver dollar in 1971 with the "Eisenhower Dollar".
It is quite rare that you will encounter one of the "large dollars".

The Susan B Anthony dollar (1979-1981)
http://www.smalldollars.com/
was never widely accepted, mostly because it was MUCH MUCH too close to a 
quarter in size.  (26.5mm V 24.26mm)  Different edge milling is NOT 
ENOUGH.  It COULD have been widely accepted, if the gubmint were to have 
given a tax incentive to have video games that took a quarter to provide 
five games for a "Carter Quarter"; and the "quantity sale" would have 
been so profitable that the tax incentive would only have to have been 
short term.
It is quite rare that you will encounter one.

It was later replaced with the Sacajewa dollar.  Same problem.
It is quite rare that you will encounter one.

Then there was a commemorative series (gold colored) of presidents of USA. 
Change of COLOR is NOT ENOUGH.
It is quite rare that you will encounter one.

And, I understand that the gubmint is planning an "American innovation" 
commemorative series.  We are far too arrogant to learn from our mistakes.
It will be quite rare that you will encounter one.


But, the states of USA commemorative quarters were so popular that they 
followed that with national parks commemorative quarters.
The quarter is the largest USA coin that you are likely to encounter 
in circulation.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 12:09:08 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 13:09:08 -0400
Subject: Identifying some boards
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCECftDWLB5dyork18Rd6PLgo7hTxf0hSG0qXq_DNBqYCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUz8VAP9garCOevSS8Sv=HvREW88uoj+M3Zes_Wr9J6adA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudifCrRubEKrpQ00eM1hwBUgXVtKQuWVNCrDfuXXOQSaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCECftDWLB5dyork18Rd6PLgo7hTxf0hSG0qXq_DNBqYCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucfrM30CMJ8wn_eF6T1oqJtTa3j6ypBM5tugctrofLWpQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 5:19 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 23:11, Bill Degnan via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > These look like they're from 486 era file server hardware.
>
> Not even slightly, IMHO.
>
> They're from 1989. That is the year the 80486 was first introduced, so
> too early, and also huge wide slots like that aren't from any kind of
> Intel box I've ever seen.
>
> -


This class machine (for example)
http://vintagecomputer.net/Tricord/

Same kind of quad processor 486 board.  I sold one a while back, and I gave
away the Ticord system but I should have a few similar boards here and
there in my file server inventory.  Stuff from the days of the  Novell file
servers.
Bill

>

From aperry at snowmoose.com  Fri Jun 28 12:18:23 2019
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 10:18:23 -0700
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <B5EBB6DC-EA25-4850-BFA6-A443B1E06E5C@snowmoose.com>



On Jun 28, 2019, at 09:57, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> It is quite rare that you will encounter one.
> 
> It was later replaced with the Sacajewa dollar.  Same problem.
> It is quite rare that you will encounter one.
> 
> Then there was a commemorative series (gold colored) of presidents of USA. Change of COLOR is NOT ENOUGH.
> It is quite rare that you will encounter one.

It depends on where you are in the country, I guess. Around here (Seattle area) lots of vending machines give out dollar coins when returning change. But, with more vending machines having payment card readers, there is less opportunity to get dollar coins from them.

One big problem with dollar coins is cash trays need to be redesigned for them. Maybe if the US got rid of the penny (like Canada has) there would be somewhere to put dollar coins in a register and they would be used more often.

alan



From cym224 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 12:59:36 2019
From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 13:59:36 -0400
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <B5EBB6DC-EA25-4850-BFA6-A443B1E06E5C@snowmoose.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <B5EBB6DC-EA25-4850-BFA6-A443B1E06E5C@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <74369c5a-0e72-ae37-25d3-630149de20c3@gmail.com>

On 06/28/19 13:18, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote (in part):
> One big problem with dollar coins is cash trays need to be redesigned 
> for them. Maybe if the US got rid of the penny (like Canada has) there 
> would be somewhere to put dollar coins in a register and they would be 
> used more often. 

Canada also replaced the $1- and $2-bill with coins (26.5mm and 28mm, 
resp.).

N.
> alan
>
>


From turing at shaw.ca  Fri Jun 28 13:09:08 2019
From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 12:09:08 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <74369c5a-0e72-ae37-25d3-630149de20c3@gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <B5EBB6DC-EA25-4850-BFA6-A443B1E06E5C@snowmoose.com>
 <74369c5a-0e72-ae37-25d3-630149de20c3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1389910509.179130985.1561745348672.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>

'Is that a toonie in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?' 


From: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
To: "Alan Perry" <aperry at snowmoose.com>, "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>, "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com> 
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 10:59:36 AM 
Subject: Re: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR 

On 06/28/19 13:18, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote (in part): 
> One big problem with dollar coins is cash trays need to be redesigned 
> for them. Maybe if the US got rid of the penny (like Canada has) there 
> would be somewhere to put dollar coins in a register and they would be 
> used more often. 

Canada also replaced the $1- and $2-bill with coins (26.5mm and 28mm, 
resp.). 

N. 
> alan 
> 
> 

From aperry at snowmoose.com  Fri Jun 28 13:11:48 2019
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:11:48 -0700
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <74369c5a-0e72-ae37-25d3-630149de20c3@gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <B5EBB6DC-EA25-4850-BFA6-A443B1E06E5C@snowmoose.com>
 <74369c5a-0e72-ae37-25d3-630149de20c3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <566D3503-B031-40E3-8B0D-7EC558C72840@snowmoose.com>



> On Jun 28, 2019, at 10:59, Nemo Nusquam <cym224 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 06/28/19 13:18, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote (in part):
>> One big problem with dollar coins is cash trays need to be redesigned for them. Maybe if the US got rid of the penny (like Canada has) there would be somewhere to put dollar coins in a register and they would be used more often. 
> 
> Canada also replaced the $1- and $2-bill with coins (26.5mm and 28mm, resp.).

Oh, I know. I was questioned by the RCMP for spending a $2 bill that was in my leftover Canadian cash from a previous trip years before.

alan

> 
> N.
>> alan
>> 
>> 
> 


From derschjo at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 13:39:37 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:39:37 -0700
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLaozRmc9cRipz7HaZJ600-_28UzBhhsg0rqmC1n4HxdmA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 2:16 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 17:21, Warner Losh via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > I saw this
> > half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what it was for.
>
> If I may just say -- only about 5% of humanity know how big that is. I
> don't. I don't even know if a half a dollar is a note or a coin, and
> that's without getting extra-pedantic and pointing out that about a
> dozen countries call their currencies the "dollar".
>

It's an *incredible* shame that no technology has yet been devised -- let
alone one that might be at your /very fingertips/ -- for finding out what
on earth this strange form of currency might look like, or how big it might
be.



> :-(
>

Absolutely agreed.

- Josh

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Jun 28 14:18:25 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 12:18:25 -0700
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com>

On 6/28/19 9:57 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> I saw this half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what
>>> it was for.

The big failure of the Susan B. Anthony coin was that it was about the
same size (slightly different shape) as a quarter-dollar coin, causing
people to mistake them as such on occasion.

It was *extremely* unpopular.

FWIW, I just checked my "loose change" container that sits atop my
bedroom dresser.  There were two Kennedy half-dollars--one from 1968 and
the other from 1983.  I suspect that a great many are still in
circulation.

--Chuck



From teoz at neo.rr.com  Fri Jun 28 14:35:56 2019
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 15:35:56 -0400
Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM
 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC>

I have not seen any half dollars in circulation in some time. They are just 
too big to fit in people skinny jeans these days.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 3:18 PM
To: Fred Cisin via cctalk
Subject: Re: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an 
IBM 5100 using OCR

On 6/28/19 9:57 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> I saw this half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what
>>> it was for.

The big failure of the Susan B. Anthony coin was that it was about the
same size (slightly different shape) as a quarter-dollar coin, causing
people to mistake them as such on occasion.

It was *extremely* unpopular.

FWIW, I just checked my "loose change" container that sits atop my
bedroom dresser.  There were two Kennedy half-dollars--one from 1968 and
the other from 1983.  I suspect that a great many are still in
circulation.

--Chuck


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Fri Jun 28 14:38:19 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 13:38:19 -0600
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <74369c5a-0e72-ae37-25d3-630149de20c3@gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <B5EBB6DC-EA25-4850-BFA6-A443B1E06E5C@snowmoose.com>
 <74369c5a-0e72-ae37-25d3-630149de20c3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3babc03d-8f01-0bec-7e29-ab16b38fdd55@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 6/28/2019 11:59 AM, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote:
> On 06/28/19 13:18, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote (in part):
>> One big problem with dollar coins is cash trays need to be redesigned 
>> for them. Maybe if the US got rid of the penny (like Canada has) there 
>> would be somewhere to put dollar coins in a register and they would be 
>> used more often. 
> 
> Canada also replaced the $1- and $2-bill with coins (26.5mm and 28mm, 
> resp.).
>

I like $1 bills better than coins here in CANADA. The lack of pennies is
real pain, as 3 cents rounds up to 5 cents for cash. but credit/bank 
card is still in cents.
Will trade new $1 coins for old dirty $1 US bills. :)




From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Jun 28 14:40:34 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 12:40:34 -0700
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <6b46ed05-aaec-422f-1dc9-5dfa07baa73d@sydex.com>

On 6/28/19 12:18 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> 
> FWIW, I just checked my "loose change" container that sits atop my
> bedroom dresser.  There were two Kennedy half-dollars--one from 1968 and
> the other from 1983.  I suspect that a great many are still in
> circulation.

For those who have never seen a Kennedy half-dollar, it's a coin that,
according to my pocket tape rule is about 1 1/8 inch or 29 mm in
diameter, featuring a profile of JFK on one side and the Great Seal of
the US on the reverse.

--Chuck




From sales at elecplus.com  Fri Jun 28 14:47:17 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 14:47:17 -0500
Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM
 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com>
 <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC>
Message-ID: <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com>

Just for fun, I went to the bank and bought about $1000 in half dollar and dollar coins. My son collects them, and we went through them all. We did find some silver half dollars. The ones we are not keeping now go to whatever fast food or corner store is needed. Some like them, some hate them! Most tell me they have not seen them in years.

Cindy

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of TeoZ via cctalk
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 2:36 PM
To: Chuck Guzis; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR

I have not seen any half dollars in circulation in some time. They are just 
too big to fit in people skinny jeans these days.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 3:18 PM
To: Fred Cisin via cctalk
Subject: Re: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an 
IBM 5100 using OCR

On 6/28/19 9:57 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> I saw this half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what
>>> it was for.

The big failure of the Susan B. Anthony coin was that it was about the
same size (slightly different shape) as a quarter-dollar coin, causing
people to mistake them as such on occasion.

It was *extremely* unpopular.

FWIW, I just checked my "loose change" container that sits atop my
bedroom dresser.  There were two Kennedy half-dollars--one from 1968 and
the other from 1983.  I suspect that a great many are still in
circulation.

--Chuck


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From derschjo at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 14:50:36 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 12:50:36 -0700
Subject: Datapoint 8600 system in Little Rock
In-Reply-To: <a07c128e-9080-8004-4deb-17db825b38d8@bitsavers.org>
References: <cbe1ed4a-6e13-1937-79f5-77d12a3a84bf@bitsavers.org>
 <a07c128e-9080-8004-4deb-17db825b38d8@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLbZDmsTXVWGF3R-kfZhUwfMa7RO0LQJ7=CN5KCaBmLVcQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 12:46 PM Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Did anyone on the list end up getting it?
>

Austin Roche on the Datapoint mailing list grabbed it.

- Josh

From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 28 15:13:35 2019
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 20:13:35 +0000
Subject: Latest Additions to the Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders
 Sale Inventory
In-Reply-To: <CAHJBWnTkar47+5C4ETcxNKSWXmpLARPYSC=1r0NOPhk6OuCEFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHJBWnTkar47+5C4ETcxNKSWXmpLARPYSC=1r0NOPhk6OuCEFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR06MB2591D978BC331CAA807BC88BBAFC0@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Anybody try business with this guy?
His prices are 10X off the chart

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Sellam Ismail via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 9:59 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Latest Additions to the Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders Sale Inventory

Greetings Folks!

I have finalized the latest batch of items added to the inventory of my
Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders, and here it is:

Commodore 64
Exatron MM800 Internal Memory
IBM PCjr Power Expansion Attachment
IBM 74F3465 The 3270 Connection
Polaroid PerfectData DS/DD 8" floppy disk (10-pack)
Xidex Precision DSDD 8" Floppy Disks (10-pack)
Diablo Printwheel - APL 10
Diablo Printwheel - Courier 10
Diablo Printwheel - European Elite 12
Diablo Printwheel - OCR A
Diablo Printwheel - Pica 10
Diablo Print Ribbon (Carton of 12)
SmartPrint Printer Sharing Network Add-on Computer Module
Symantec Think C for Macintosh 6.0 (Upgrade)
Hayes Personal Modem 1200
Gravis Mac MouseStick II
Apple Power Mac Processor Upgrade (APMPU)
Orange Micro OrangePC MS-DOS Coprocessor
Radius Full Page Display SE
Corvus Systems Macintosh OmniDrive User Guide
Corvus Systems Qbus Interface
RT-11 System Reference Card
RT-11 System Reference Card
Convergent Technologies WK-100 WorkSlate
Convergent Technologies WorkSlate Travel Task Ware
Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 100 Portable Computer
Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 100 Cassette Interface Cable
TRS-80 Model 100 Calculator
TRS-80 Model 100 Bar Code Drivers
TRS-80 Model 100 Bar Code Writer
TRS-80 Model 100 Executive Calendar
TRS-80 Model 100 Function Plotter
TRS-80 Model 100 Personal Finance
TRS-80 Model 100 Portable Computing with the Model 100
TRS-80 Model 100 SCRIPSIT 100
TRS-80 Model 100 StarBlaze 100
TRS-80 Model 100 Tandy Code
Tandy 102 Owner's Manual/Applications and BASIC Reference Guide
IBM Personal Computer PCjr BASIC Reference
IBM Personal Computer PCjr Guide to Operations
Hands-On BASIC for the IBM PCjr
AST VGA Plus
Tall Tree Systems AT3-P w/JLaser-3 daughterboard
Western Digital WD7000-ASC FASST2 SCSI Controller
Ziatech IEEE 488 Interface for PS/2 Computers
Everex 24E+ External Modem
Epson FX-86e/286e Printer User's Manual
Citizen Color Ribbon
Okidata Okimate 20 Plug 'N Print for IBM PC and Compatibles
Okidata Tractor Feed Option Kit (boxed)
Memorex Epson MX-80 Printer Ribbon
3M DS,HD 5.25" Diskettes (10-pack)
Dysan 100 MD2HD floppy diskette 10-pack
Ohio Scientific 5.25" Mini Floppy Diskette (10-pack)
Verbatim Datalife SS/DD 5.25" Minidisks (7-pack)
Epson E95D0U External 5.25" Disk Drive
Compaq MS-DOS Version 3 Reference Guide
DEC PDP-8/L Instruction List reference card
Osborne dBase II Version 2.3b (manual only)
Altera MAX+plus II Programmable Logic Development System
FHR Industries 1200 Intelligent Modem
Commodore 64
HP 92220R HPIB Right Angle Cable (1ft)
HP10833B HPIB Cable (2m)
SunRize Industries Perfect Sound
Timex-Sinclair 1000
Sinclair ZX81 case
Apple Macintosh Plus (Platinum)
Apple Macintosh SE w/Targus Carrying Case

(Those are two different Commodore 64 units, one has a case "variation".)

Links to the newly arrived items are here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit?pli=1&fbclid=IwAR29aeaPInesPowqSLeq_ElmtOwSThjfRAJyW9T_oN6mnjPPt4wO1CchMGQ#gid=949372371&range=A1

I have discovered the myriad of Facebook vintage computing groups, so I
have begun posting my sale lists there as well.  However, I will always
post notifications of new lists here and on the VCFed forums 24 hours
before I unleash them on the FB groups, which results in a deluge of
activity.  In this way, I give you guys first stab at the action on the new
stuff before the hordes descend upon it.  You are welcome.

As always, please contact me directly by e-mail to inquire about an item.

Thanks!

Sellam

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Fri Jun 28 15:22:22 2019
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 13:22:22 -0700
Subject: CDC Cyber 180-960 available
Message-ID: <0BB616A4-DF56-4FE5-AB7E-85F57C496A05@shiresoft.com>

Hi,

It has come to my attention that a CDC Cyber 180-960 is available.  Apparently this is from a supplier that was supporting Vandenburg AFB (California) with spares.  Since Vendenburg is decommissioning it?s Cyber systems, the supplier wants to get rid of the spare machine that they have.

I think the supplier just want the machine ?to go away? so the price is likely to be negligible.

Please contact me off-list if interested and I?ll get you in touch with the relevant folks.

TTFN - Guy

From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Jun 28 15:50:31 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 14:50:31 -0600
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <6b46ed05-aaec-422f-1dc9-5dfa07baa73d@sydex.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com>
 <6b46ed05-aaec-422f-1dc9-5dfa07baa73d@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfof5YmOCjh2mJQwerHWaQJuNNFxkb3n01rrb7V=wq_sYQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 1:40 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 6/28/19 12:18 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>
> >
> > FWIW, I just checked my "loose change" container that sits atop my
> > bedroom dresser.  There were two Kennedy half-dollars--one from 1968 and
> > the other from 1983.  I suspect that a great many are still in
> > circulation.
>
> For those who have never seen a Kennedy half-dollar, it's a coin that,
> according to my pocket tape rule is about 1 1/8 inch or 29 mm in
> diameter, featuring a profile of JFK on one side and the Great Seal of
> the US on the reverse.
>

Yea, I'm just the right age to have seen them in circulation and have it as
a unit of measure for "just bigger than an inch". Sorry for the crazy
measurement...

Warner

From classiccmp at crash.com  Fri Jun 28 15:54:45 2019
From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 13:54:45 -0700
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <566D3503-B031-40E3-8B0D-7EC558C72840@snowmoose.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <B5EBB6DC-EA25-4850-BFA6-A443B1E06E5C@snowmoose.com>
 <74369c5a-0e72-ae37-25d3-630149de20c3@gmail.com>
 <566D3503-B031-40E3-8B0D-7EC558C72840@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <c36b27dc-cfff-542d-148d-752e07545e5a@crash.com>

On 06/28/2019 11:11, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Canada also replaced the $1- and $2-bill with coins (26.5mm and 28mm, resp.).
> 
> Oh, I know. I was questioned by the RCMP for spending a $2 bill that was in my leftover Canadian cash from a previous trip years before.

Two weeks ago I was in London, and had brought my pound notes/coins from 
a visit a few years earlier. When trying to buy lunch, the cashier 
refused my ?10 note since new ?5 and ?10 notes had been issued over a 
year before. I was advised I could change it at a bank...

So the next day I stopped at a Metro Bank outlet on my way to our local 
office, but was told they'd only change notes for account holders -- 
which I can guarantee you I will now never be. But I was told I could go 
to the Bank of England and they'd change it. The BoE was probably only 
20 minutes away by Tube, but I wasn't trying to turn this exchange into 
a side-quest. :^/

I still have the ?10 note. In theory I might be able to exchange it by 
snail mail, but haven't looked into it yet...

--S.


From ed at groenenberg.net  Fri Jun 28 13:25:04 2019
From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 20:25:04 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece"  Was: Recovering the ROM of 
 an IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <51300.10.10.10.2.1561746304.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>




On Fri, June 28, 2019 18:57, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> I saw this half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what it
>>> was for.
>
> On Fri, 28 Jun 2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
>> If I may just say -- only about 5% of humanity know how big that is. I
>> don't. I don't even know if a half a dollar is a note or a coin, and
>> that's without getting extra-pedantic and pointing out that about a
>> dozen countries call their currencies the "dollar".
>> :-(
>
> Oh, FAR FAR FAR less than 5%.
> Most residents of USA haven't seen a half dollar or "50 cent piece" in
> decades.  They are as much of an oddity as the $2 bill.  They are
> nominally still in circulation, most recent being JFK, but I think that
> they stopped making them in 2002, and there are federal vaults full of
> uncirculated pre-2002 coins.  Most recent has a portrait of Kennedy.
> They are 30.61mm diameter, which is the largest relatively recent
> USA coin (not counting the long discontinued 38.1mm SILVER DOLLAR)
>
snip snip snip

> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com
>

How odd & funny!

Being a Dutchman, I do have a few half dollars, 2 $2 bills and 2
Susan B. Antony 1 dollar coins. Oh, and a silver dollar which is
pretty large.

Where I got those? Well, Las Vegas for the half dollar coins (slot
machines), change given back (the $2 bills), and a cable car ticket
vending machine in SF (the $1 coins).
Can't remember where I got the silver dollar from tough.

Still have them because I just liked them.

Ed
--
Ik email, dus ik besta &#128518;


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Fri Jun 28 16:10:41 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 15:10:41 -0600
Subject: DNS and Registrar
In-Reply-To: <01R8EG3P4QVO8WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <a26c2c54-0c2f-9292-62b0-f56089101ebf@jwsss.com>
 <01R8EG3P4QVO8WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <d150b671-1864-5288-ff33-a80355202075@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/28/19 2:46 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:
> I have issues with customers of (or possibly "customers" of) Linode 
> regularly probing my network.  On complaining to Linode, the response I 
> get is more or less "oh they're entitled to do that".  Linode distributes 
> the ip addresses responsible for this activity across various netblocks 
> and moves them from time to time so my response is to filter out anything 
> to do with Linode from here.

I think that all bargain VPS providers are subject to the same type of 
misuse ~> abuse.

It is of course your option to filter them.

I might not like it.  But it's your choice.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Jun 28 16:52:37 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 14:52:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Latest Additions to the Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders
 Sale Inventory
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB2591D978BC331CAA807BC88BBAFC0@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAHJBWnTkar47+5C4ETcxNKSWXmpLARPYSC=1r0NOPhk6OuCEFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR06MB2591D978BC331CAA807BC88BBAFC0@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906281442310.10025@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
> Anybody try business with this guy?    [Sellam]
> His prices are 10X off the chart

I have done business with him.
He always treated me fairly, and even gave me advice about where I might 
find better prices than his.
His prices are negotiable, although he is trying to make a living.
He had some major problems with storage a number of years back.

A tiny part of the stuff that he has, is stuff that he got from me, when I 
needed EVERYTHING to go to move out of my old office, and he was willing 
to take stuff, even some that he didn't want, to help me out.


> ________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Sellam Ismail via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 9:59 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Latest Additions to the Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders Sale Inventory
>
> Greetings Folks!
>
> I have finalized the latest batch of items added to the inventory of my
> Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders, and here it is:
>
> Commodore 64
> Exatron MM800 Internal Memory
> IBM PCjr Power Expansion Attachment
> IBM 74F3465 The 3270 Connection
> Polaroid PerfectData DS/DD 8" floppy disk (10-pack)
> Xidex Precision DSDD 8" Floppy Disks (10-pack)
> Diablo Printwheel - APL 10
> Diablo Printwheel - Courier 10
> Diablo Printwheel - European Elite 12
> Diablo Printwheel - OCR A
> Diablo Printwheel - Pica 10
> Diablo Print Ribbon (Carton of 12)
> SmartPrint Printer Sharing Network Add-on Computer Module
> Symantec Think C for Macintosh 6.0 (Upgrade)
> Hayes Personal Modem 1200
> Gravis Mac MouseStick II
> Apple Power Mac Processor Upgrade (APMPU)
> Orange Micro OrangePC MS-DOS Coprocessor
> Radius Full Page Display SE
> Corvus Systems Macintosh OmniDrive User Guide
> Corvus Systems Qbus Interface
> RT-11 System Reference Card
> RT-11 System Reference Card
> Convergent Technologies WK-100 WorkSlate
> Convergent Technologies WorkSlate Travel Task Ware
> Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 100 Portable Computer
> Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 100 Cassette Interface Cable
> TRS-80 Model 100 Calculator
> TRS-80 Model 100 Bar Code Drivers
> TRS-80 Model 100 Bar Code Writer
> TRS-80 Model 100 Executive Calendar
> TRS-80 Model 100 Function Plotter
> TRS-80 Model 100 Personal Finance
> TRS-80 Model 100 Portable Computing with the Model 100
> TRS-80 Model 100 SCRIPSIT 100
> TRS-80 Model 100 StarBlaze 100
> TRS-80 Model 100 Tandy Code
> Tandy 102 Owner's Manual/Applications and BASIC Reference Guide
> IBM Personal Computer PCjr BASIC Reference
> IBM Personal Computer PCjr Guide to Operations
> Hands-On BASIC for the IBM PCjr
> AST VGA Plus
> Tall Tree Systems AT3-P w/JLaser-3 daughterboard
> Western Digital WD7000-ASC FASST2 SCSI Controller
> Ziatech IEEE 488 Interface for PS/2 Computers
> Everex 24E+ External Modem
> Epson FX-86e/286e Printer User's Manual
> Citizen Color Ribbon
> Okidata Okimate 20 Plug 'N Print for IBM PC and Compatibles
> Okidata Tractor Feed Option Kit (boxed)
> Memorex Epson MX-80 Printer Ribbon
> 3M DS,HD 5.25" Diskettes (10-pack)
> Dysan 100 MD2HD floppy diskette 10-pack
> Ohio Scientific 5.25" Mini Floppy Diskette (10-pack)
> Verbatim Datalife SS/DD 5.25" Minidisks (7-pack)
> Epson E95D0U External 5.25" Disk Drive
> Compaq MS-DOS Version 3 Reference Guide
> DEC PDP-8/L Instruction List reference card
> Osborne dBase II Version 2.3b (manual only)
> Altera MAX+plus II Programmable Logic Development System
> FHR Industries 1200 Intelligent Modem
> Commodore 64
> HP 92220R HPIB Right Angle Cable (1ft)
> HP10833B HPIB Cable (2m)
> SunRize Industries Perfect Sound
> Timex-Sinclair 1000
> Sinclair ZX81 case
> Apple Macintosh Plus (Platinum)
> Apple Macintosh SE w/Targus Carrying Case
>
> (Those are two different Commodore 64 units, one has a case "variation".)
>
> Links to the newly arrived items are here:
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit?pli=1&fbclid=IwAR29aeaPInesPowqSLeq_ElmtOwSThjfRAJyW9T_oN6mnjPPt4wO1CchMGQ#gid=949372371&range=A1
>
> I have discovered the myriad of Facebook vintage computing groups, so I
> have begun posting my sale lists there as well.  However, I will always
> post notifications of new lists here and on the VCFed forums 24 hours
> before I unleash them on the FB groups, which results in a deluge of
> activity.  In this way, I give you guys first stab at the action on the new
> stuff before the hordes descend upon it.  You are welcome.
>
> As always, please contact me directly by e-mail to inquire about an item.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sellam

From spectre at floodgap.com  Fri Jun 28 17:25:29 2019
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 15:25:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Latest Additions to the Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders
 Sale Inventory
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906281442310.10025@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin
 via cctalk at "Jun 28, 19 02:52:37 pm"
Message-ID: <201906282225.x5SMPTYP7209196@floodgap.com>

> > Anybody try business with this guy?    [Sellam]
> > His prices are 10X off the chart
> 
> I have done business with him.
> He always treated me fairly, and even gave me advice about where I might 
> find better prices than his.
> His prices are negotiable, although he is trying to make a living.
> He had some major problems with storage a number of years back.
> 
> A tiny part of the stuff that he has, is stuff that he got from me, when I 
> needed EVERYTHING to go to move out of my old office, and he was willing 
> to take stuff, even some that he didn't want, to help me out.

Sam has always done well by me. They may be higher priced, but I've never
got junk from him, and that's worth a premium IMHO.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- "I'd love to go out with you, but I need to clean my toilet brush." --------

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 17:31:30 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 18:31:30 -0400
Subject: CDC Cyber 180-960 available
In-Reply-To: <0BB616A4-DF56-4FE5-AB7E-85F57C496A05@shiresoft.com>
References: <0BB616A4-DF56-4FE5-AB7E-85F57C496A05@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dczMuj52R0HCTBRC+_JZUr96FYq691t93_G+2bpQUnhoA@mail.gmail.com>

HOLD THE BOAT!

It is still not clear if the 960 is to be kept at Vandenberg! This is
the US Air Force here.

I would advise that this be NIPPED IN THE BUD.

--
Will

--
Will

--
Will

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 4:22 PM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> It has come to my attention that a CDC Cyber 180-960 is available.  Apparently this is from a supplier that was supporting Vandenburg AFB (California) with spares.  Since Vendenburg is decommissioning it?s Cyber systems, the supplier wants to get rid of the spare machine that they have.
>
> I think the supplier just want the machine ?to go away? so the price is likely to be negligible.
>
> Please contact me off-list if interested and I?ll get you in touch with the relevant folks.
>
> TTFN - Guy

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Fri Jun 28 17:37:20 2019
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 15:37:20 -0700
Subject: CDC Cyber 180-960 available
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dczMuj52R0HCTBRC+_JZUr96FYq691t93_G+2bpQUnhoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0BB616A4-DF56-4FE5-AB7E-85F57C496A05@shiresoft.com>
 <CANij+dczMuj52R0HCTBRC+_JZUr96FYq691t93_G+2bpQUnhoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C685CEE8-9ABA-49CA-B65B-A68E4BFC71E9@shiresoft.com>

Sorry, I passed this along with the information I was given.  I just wanted to make sure that it was saved rather than scrapped if at all possible.

TTFN - Guy

> On Jun 28, 2019, at 3:31 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> HOLD THE BOAT!
> 
> It is still not clear if the 960 is to be kept at Vandenberg! This is
> the US Air Force here.
> 
> I would advise that this be NIPPED IN THE BUD.
> 
> --
> Will
> 
> --
> Will
> 
> --
> Will
> 
> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 4:22 PM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> It has come to my attention that a CDC Cyber 180-960 is available.  Apparently this is from a supplier that was supporting Vandenburg AFB (California) with spares.  Since Vendenburg is decommissioning it?s Cyber systems, the supplier wants to get rid of the spare machine that they have.
>> 
>> I think the supplier just want the machine ?to go away? so the price is likely to be negligible.
>> 
>> Please contact me off-list if interested and I?ll get you in touch with the relevant folks.
>> 
>> TTFN - Guy


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 17:49:35 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 18:49:35 -0400
Subject: CDC Cyber 180-960 available
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dczMuj52R0HCTBRC+_JZUr96FYq691t93_G+2bpQUnhoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0BB616A4-DF56-4FE5-AB7E-85F57C496A05@shiresoft.com>
 <CANij+dczMuj52R0HCTBRC+_JZUr96FYq691t93_G+2bpQUnhoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dettkUKPAVoh2o4m1Hhw24hxru7fU=ZmwysyxXZgHwk0A@mail.gmail.com>

> It is still not clear if the 960 is to be kept at Vandenberg! This is
> the US Air Force here.

Also, the "maybe-available" 960 is the *spare* machine. The fate of
the production machines are in question. They would likely go through
normal military surplus channels.

Anyway, time is basically up.

I have a bit of an inventory - no, don't expect them to still have any
ancient stuff - so if you have a very specific want, maybe I can
inquire and see if is has not yet been junked, and can be thrown in
with my stuff. Quite a lot was junked some time ago.

--
Will

From cym224 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 17:50:07 2019
From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 18:50:07 -0400
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <c36b27dc-cfff-542d-148d-752e07545e5a@crash.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <B5EBB6DC-EA25-4850-BFA6-A443B1E06E5C@snowmoose.com>
 <74369c5a-0e72-ae37-25d3-630149de20c3@gmail.com>
 <566D3503-B031-40E3-8B0D-7EC558C72840@snowmoose.com>
 <c36b27dc-cfff-542d-148d-752e07545e5a@crash.com>
Message-ID: <e4340937-2f41-6bf9-74c8-83ec0fdf7c40@gmail.com>

On 06/28/19 16:54, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote (in part):
> On 06/28/2019 11:11, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
>>> Canada also replaced the $1- and $2-bill with coins (26.5mm and 
>>> 28mm, resp.).
>> Oh, I know. I was questioned by the RCMP for spending a $2 bill that 
>> was in my leftover Canadian cash from a previous trip years before.
> Two weeks ago I was in London, and had brought my pound notes/coins 
> from a visit a few years earlier. When trying to buy lunch, the 
> cashier refused my ?10 note since new ?5 and ?10 notes had been issued 
> over a year before. I was advised I could change it at a bank...
>
Then there were those huge 10-franc coins in France before the Euro, 
large enough to have writing engraved on the edge.  (I still have one or 
two somewhere....)

N.

From web at loomcom.com  Fri Jun 28 17:59:11 2019
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 15:59:11 -0700
Subject: DNS and Registrar
In-Reply-To: <01R8EG3P4QVO8WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <a26c2c54-0c2f-9292-62b0-f56089101ebf@jwsss.com>
 <01R8EG3P4QVO8WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <f373b435-643d-40d0-90c1-dff699f85495@www.fastmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019, at 2:07 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:
> [...] so my response is to filter out anything to do with Linode from
> here.

This is something of a touchy subject for me because I have been a Linode customer for over a decade, and have always been extraordinarily happy with their service.

THAT SAID: I had to stop running my own mail server about two years ago, after the failure rate of delivery became too high. Part of that was because of Google, but I'm sure another good part was due to Linode IP addresses ending up on blacklists.

It has been a very long time since I looked at the competition, but I'm very open to switching. Do you (or anyone else for that matter) have providers you would recommend?

> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.

-Seth
-- 
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA
  web at loomcom.com

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Fri Jun 28 18:18:05 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 17:18:05 -0600
Subject: DNS and Registrar
In-Reply-To: <f373b435-643d-40d0-90c1-dff699f85495@www.fastmail.com>
References: <a26c2c54-0c2f-9292-62b0-f56089101ebf@jwsss.com>
 <01R8EG3P4QVO8WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>
 <f373b435-643d-40d0-90c1-dff699f85495@www.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <84da7d26-c8ff-79b8-0adf-59909e4ac4ea@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/28/19 4:59 PM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote:
> This is something of a touchy subject for me because I have been a Linode 
> customer for over a decade, and have always been extraordinarily happy 
> with their service.

I'm not sure how long I've been a Linode customer.  I think it's 
something like six to eight years.

I've also almost always been quite happy with their service (VPS and 
connectivity) and their customer service (hand holding when desired).  I 
say almost because I have had a couple of things that I was not happy 
with initially.  I say initially because they did realize they were 
dropping the ball and stepped up their game and made me happy.

> THAT SAID: I had to stop running my own mail server about two years ago, 
> after the failure rate of delivery became too high. Part of that was 
> because of Google, but I'm sure another good part was due to Linode IP 
> addresses ending up on blacklists.

I've heard less noise about Linode's IP space than I have other VPS 
providers.

I'm successfully delivering to Google from Linode daily.  Running an 
email server today is non-trivially more difficult than it was ten years 
ago.

> It has been a very long time since I looked at the competition, but 
> I'm very open to switching. Do you (or anyone else for that matter) 
> have providers you would recommend?

I'm not aware of any /better/ options, just /other/ options.

Honestly, if I ever need to switch, I'll likely go back to a company 
that I do work with that has a Co-Lo facility and host something with them.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From boris at summitclinic.com  Fri Jun 28 18:06:32 2019
From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 15:06:32 -0800
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFS196K7bfNTBdLRkPraHDzbSaZVCUqegTmWXqxErzbug@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAMTenCFS196K7bfNTBdLRkPraHDzbSaZVCUqegTmWXqxErzbug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190628232140.329D9273CA@mx1.ezwind.net>

That was a very interesting read!  The type of 
thing I could see myself doing over 40 years ago 
when once I'd come up with a neat idea and either 
did preliminary coding or hardware design 
suggesting it would work I'd jump right into it 
and find optimistic 1 month project timelines 
stretching to 6+ months.  My approach now would 
be to just use a logic analyzer or a number of 
Propeller boards to sample all of the lines from 
ROS as very sedate clock speed that the 5100 uses.

Still, this has applications beyond original goal 
and could use it to acquire patient lab data from 
hospital EMR's which are increasingly locked 
down.  Used  to be I could export a  patients lab 
results to a text file easily to graph them out 
vs time or look at correlations between various 
lab values.  Now that's forbidden as one is only 
allowed to look at them on the screen or use the 
abysmal graphing functionality which is very 
poorly coded and makes a PDP-8 doing the same 
functionality seem like a 
supercomputer.  Thus,  one could simply point a 
cell phone camera at the screen, record the lab 
results  scrolling by and then do OCR on the 
series of images to create a data file of all of 
the lab results  one is interested  in.  I've 
just photographed results on a screen as takes 
less room than another sheet of paper.

>This is *epic*.
>
>https://github.com/stepleton/5100NonExecutableROSDecode/blob/master/WRITEUP.md
>
>--
>Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
>Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
>Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
>UK: +44 7939-087884 - ??R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053



From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri Jun 28 19:12:07 2019
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 00:12:07 +0000
Subject: Identifying some boards
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBucfrM30CMJ8wn_eF6T1oqJtTa3j6ypBM5tugctrofLWpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUz8VAP9garCOevSS8Sv=HvREW88uoj+M3Zes_Wr9J6adA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudifCrRubEKrpQ00eM1hwBUgXVtKQuWVNCrDfuXXOQSaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCECftDWLB5dyork18Rd6PLgo7hTxf0hSG0qXq_DNBqYCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBucfrM30CMJ8wn_eF6T1oqJtTa3j6ypBM5tugctrofLWpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190629001205.GA10633@lonesome.com>

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 01:09:08PM -0400, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> This class machine (for example)
> http://vintagecomputer.net/Tricord/

Heh.  That's a name I hadn't heard in a while.

Your Tricord system was probably designed by a guy named Rick Nicholson
who I later worked with.

mcl

From new_castle_j at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 28 21:17:39 2019
From: new_castle_j at yahoo.com (new_castle_j at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 02:17:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: TurboDOS for S-100, IMS or L/F Technologies
In-Reply-To: <1994260350.1498101.1560272129120@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1994260350.1498101.1560272129120.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1994260350.1498101.1560272129120@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1558945456.560389.1561774659752@mail.yahoo.com>

 Just sending a thanks for the replies from various folks on this list. I was able to recover a partial set of operating system files for my IMS/LF-Technologies S-100 machine from members who dug deep into their archives. It's booting now to a basic single-user TurboDOS 1.4 which proves that my hardware is sound. In order to get what I really want out of this machine, I still need to source a full set of TurboDOS 1.4 drivers (.REL files) from IMS L/F Tech distribution diskettes. I'll be around if they ever turn up.

Thank You!

IMS A645 Z-80 Processor
IMS A631 serial/parallel I/O
IMS A930 Floppy controller
IMS A465 64K RAM
IMS 1100 Winchester Hard disk controller
IMS 862 User Processor (Z80)
IMS 1081 User Processor (186)
IMS 1120 Tape Controller     On Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 11:55:29 AM CDT, Jonathan Haddox <new_castle_j at yahoo.com> wrote:  
 
 I'm restoring an IMS - L/F Technologies S-100 Bus computer.? I've got all the pieces except for the Operating System.? I'm hoping that someone here may have a disk stashed away.? From the literature I have read, I would need TurboDOS version 1.40a or 1.41c from IMS or L/F Technologies.? I've seen TurboDOS 1.3 versions out in the wild from IMS, but the 1.4 version was greatly enhanced and offered better compatibility with my specific hardware.? I'd be much obliged if anyone can help.

Thanks,

Jonathan
new_castle_j? at yahoo  

From chd at chdickman.com  Fri Jun 28 21:44:00 2019
From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 22:44:00 -0400
Subject: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <01b401d52cac$db773f40$9265bdc0$@net>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <66ceccce-fa78-28b9-4cc2-9b184e423504@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <01b401d52cac$db773f40$9265bdc0$@net>
Message-ID: <CAAq7DHp09DdUWzNJ_XaNHMczqC7O_v9P5Z2NmzQ5vM2aUiQDHw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 1:55 AM Ali via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> > > Now that Dyn has been absorbed by Oracle I need a new DNS service
> > > for my vanity domain. I welcome suggestions for a replacement
> > provider.
>
> What is the exact issue here? As I understand it DynDNS is still being
> offered as a service. Is it because there is no longer a free option?
>
>
This is a quote from the email I received regarding the Standard DNS
service. It was not the free service.

"Now that this integration work is complete, Oracle is announcing the
end-of-life of the Standard DNS service in favor of our upgraded version on
the Oracle Cloud Infrastructure platform. On May 31, 2020, the ?EOL Date?,
the Standard DNS will be retired and will no longer be available. The
upgrade to Oracle Cloud Infrastructure will require some actions on your
part and must be completed on or before the EOL Date. "

I take this to mean that I have one year to migrate to Oracle or move along.

-Ali
>
>

From aperry at snowmoose.com  Fri Jun 28 21:55:56 2019
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 19:55:56 -0700
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <c36b27dc-cfff-542d-148d-752e07545e5a@crash.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <B5EBB6DC-EA25-4850-BFA6-A443B1E06E5C@snowmoose.com>
 <74369c5a-0e72-ae37-25d3-630149de20c3@gmail.com>
 <566D3503-B031-40E3-8B0D-7EC558C72840@snowmoose.com>
 <c36b27dc-cfff-542d-148d-752e07545e5a@crash.com>
Message-ID: <30ef6f35-c5ca-8967-1fe1-9b65fa10b61f@snowmoose.com>



On 6/28/19 1:54 PM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote:
> On 06/28/2019 11:11, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> Canada also replaced the $1- and $2-bill with coins (26.5mm and 
>>> 28mm, resp.).
>>
>> Oh, I know. I was questioned by the RCMP for spending a $2 bill that 
>> was in my leftover Canadian cash from a previous trip years before.
>
> Two weeks ago I was in London, and had brought my pound notes/coins 
> from a visit a few years earlier. When trying to buy lunch, the 
> cashier refused my ?10 note since new ?5 and ?10 notes had been issued 
> over a year before. I was advised I could change it at a bank...
>
> So the next day I stopped at a Metro Bank outlet on my way to our 
> local office, but was told they'd only change notes for account 
> holders -- which I can guarantee you I will now never be. But I was 
> told I could go to the Bank of England and they'd change it. The BoE 
> was probably only 20 minutes away by Tube, but I wasn't trying to turn 
> this exchange into a side-quest. :^/
>
> I still have the ?10 note. In theory I might be able to exchange it by 
> snail mail, but haven't looked into it yet...
If I had realized that the Canadian $2 bill been withdrawn, I never 
would have spent it and would have instead added it to my collection of 
withdrawn currency.


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 21:56:40 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 22:56:40 -0400
Subject: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <CAAq7DHp09DdUWzNJ_XaNHMczqC7O_v9P5Z2NmzQ5vM2aUiQDHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <66ceccce-fa78-28b9-4cc2-9b184e423504@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <01b401d52cac$db773f40$9265bdc0$@net>
 <CAAq7DHp09DdUWzNJ_XaNHMczqC7O_v9P5Z2NmzQ5vM2aUiQDHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufk8JO9yQmyVk_RX5kUGDrtcCP0cvdRQZ6avVumpzXnQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 10:44 PM Charles Dickman via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 1:55 AM Ali via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > > > Now that Dyn has been absorbed by Oracle I need a new DNS service
> > > > for my vanity domain. I welcome suggestions for a replacement
> > > provider.
> >
>
>
I have had my own DNS for 20 years, it's pretty simple stuff.  I have a
master and a slave linux box, used to be freebsd but when I moved it to
Amazon I changed to Fedora I think.  My client pays for it, but that said,
for other DNSing I usually just use Godaddy's DNS, it's easy to use and it
comes with the domain registration service.  Not expensive either.  They
basically leave me alone and I rarely need to do much to it.  Having my own
DNS is more or less just a legacy thing that one of my customers needs,
does not serve me to have one when it's freely provided by godaddy.

So, jumping in late to this conversation, why does it matter that Dyn
and/or Oracle do not supply this service? I may have missed a key point.
It's also easier said than done to set up the DNS I suppose, but if anyone
really needed a temp DNS I could provide it.  Contact me privately.  I can
also take a look at a DNS record for bugs/issues with reverse lookup and
other OT stuff.

Bill

From useddec at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 23:06:25 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 23:06:25 -0500
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <c36b27dc-cfff-542d-148d-752e07545e5a@crash.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <B5EBB6DC-EA25-4850-BFA6-A443B1E06E5C@snowmoose.com>
 <74369c5a-0e72-ae37-25d3-630149de20c3@gmail.com>
 <566D3503-B031-40E3-8B0D-7EC558C72840@snowmoose.com>
 <c36b27dc-cfff-542d-148d-752e07545e5a@crash.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMWk-mxFTuiEbc4-aHzW-fOzbaKJZk7MFAWq94YjTdCvQ@mail.gmail.com>

If the note is in good condition, I'll buy it from you. I've been
collecting US coins on and off for years, and started on GB coinage when I
lived over there. Now I collect about everything, including currency, AND
WILL TRADE COMPUTER ITEMS FOR COINS AND CURRENCY!

Paul

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 3:55 PM Steven M Jones via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 06/28/2019 11:11, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >> Canada also replaced the $1- and $2-bill with coins (26.5mm and 28mm,
> resp.).
> >
> > Oh, I know. I was questioned by the RCMP for spending a $2 bill that was
> in my leftover Canadian cash from a previous trip years before.
>
> Two weeks ago I was in London, and had brought my pound notes/coins from
> a visit a few years earlier. When trying to buy lunch, the cashier
> refused my ?10 note since new ?5 and ?10 notes had been issued over a
> year before. I was advised I could change it at a bank...
>
> So the next day I stopped at a Metro Bank outlet on my way to our local
> office, but was told they'd only change notes for account holders --
> which I can guarantee you I will now never be. But I was told I could go
> to the Bank of England and they'd change it. The BoE was probably only
> 20 minutes away by Tube, but I wasn't trying to turn this exchange into
> a side-quest. :^/
>
> I still have the ?10 note. In theory I might be able to exchange it by
> snail mail, but haven't looked into it yet...
>
> --S.
>
>

From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 23:53:10 2019
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 01:53:10 -0300
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <e4340937-2f41-6bf9-74c8-83ec0fdf7c40@gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <B5EBB6DC-EA25-4850-BFA6-A443B1E06E5C@snowmoose.com>
 <74369c5a-0e72-ae37-25d3-630149de20c3@gmail.com>
 <566D3503-B031-40E3-8B0D-7EC558C72840@snowmoose.com>
 <c36b27dc-cfff-542d-148d-752e07545e5a@crash.com>
 <e4340937-2f41-6bf9-74c8-83ec0fdf7c40@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49399198-640a-ea63-14e7-714942e760f4@gmail.com>


On 2019-06-28 7:50 p.m., Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote:
> On 06/28/19 16:54, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote (in part):
>> On 06/28/2019 11:11, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
>>>> Canada also replaced the $1- and $2-bill with coins (26.5mm and 
>>>> 28mm, resp.).
>>> Oh, I know. I was questioned by the RCMP for spending a $2 bill that 
>>> was in my leftover Canadian cash from a previous trip years before.
>> Two weeks ago I was in London, and had brought my pound notes/coins 
>> from a visit a few years earlier. When trying to buy lunch, the 
>> cashier refused my ?10 note since new ?5 and ?10 notes had been 
>> issued over a year before. I was advised I could change it at a bank...
>>
> Then there were those huge 10-franc coins in France before the Euro, 
> large enough to have writing engraved on the edge.? (I still have one 
> or two somewhere....)
>
> N.

The Canadian 2 dollar coin has writing engraved on the edge.

The largest coins I have encounter was when I was in Mexico in the early 
90s.? I think the smallest denomination at? the time was 500 pesos it 
was about the size of 2or 3 quarters stacked up and worth nothing.

Paul.


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Sat Jun 29 00:43:26 2019
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 22:43:26 -0700
Subject: Latest Additions to the Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders
 Sale Inventory
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB2591D978BC331CAA807BC88BBAFC0@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAHJBWnTkar47+5C4ETcxNKSWXmpLARPYSC=1r0NOPhk6OuCEFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR06MB2591D978BC331CAA807BC88BBAFC0@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <67e133b9-a2f7-af75-f322-c4b19faceee4@jwsss.com>


On 6/28/2019 1:13 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
> Anybody try business with this guy?
> His prices are 10X off the chart

I've visited his home, and stuff there, and other locations, he has a 
lot of great stuff.? I don't know the prices being commented on here 
being high, maybe so.? He deals.

I did great with him every time I dealt with him, and will continue to 
do so, I expect.

thanks
Jim
> ________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Sellam Ismail via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 9:59 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Latest Additions to the Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders Sale Inventory
>
> Greetings Folks!
>
> I have finalized the latest batch of items added to the inventory of my
> Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders, and here it is:
>
> Commodore 64
> Exatron MM800 Internal Memory
> IBM PCjr Power Expansion Attachment
> IBM 74F3465 The 3270 Connection
> Polaroid PerfectData DS/DD 8" floppy disk (10-pack)
> Xidex Precision DSDD 8" Floppy Disks (10-pack)
> Diablo Printwheel - APL 10
> Diablo Printwheel - Courier 10
> Diablo Printwheel - European Elite 12
> Diablo Printwheel - OCR A
> Diablo Printwheel - Pica 10
> Diablo Print Ribbon (Carton of 12)
> SmartPrint Printer Sharing Network Add-on Computer Module
> Symantec Think C for Macintosh 6.0 (Upgrade)
> Hayes Personal Modem 1200
> Gravis Mac MouseStick II
> Apple Power Mac Processor Upgrade (APMPU)
> Orange Micro OrangePC MS-DOS Coprocessor
> Radius Full Page Display SE
> Corvus Systems Macintosh OmniDrive User Guide
> Corvus Systems Qbus Interface
> RT-11 System Reference Card
> RT-11 System Reference Card
> Convergent Technologies WK-100 WorkSlate
> Convergent Technologies WorkSlate Travel Task Ware
> Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 100 Portable Computer
> Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 100 Cassette Interface Cable
> TRS-80 Model 100 Calculator
> TRS-80 Model 100 Bar Code Drivers
> TRS-80 Model 100 Bar Code Writer
> TRS-80 Model 100 Executive Calendar
> TRS-80 Model 100 Function Plotter
> TRS-80 Model 100 Personal Finance
> TRS-80 Model 100 Portable Computing with the Model 100
> TRS-80 Model 100 SCRIPSIT 100
> TRS-80 Model 100 StarBlaze 100
> TRS-80 Model 100 Tandy Code
> Tandy 102 Owner's Manual/Applications and BASIC Reference Guide
> IBM Personal Computer PCjr BASIC Reference
> IBM Personal Computer PCjr Guide to Operations
> Hands-On BASIC for the IBM PCjr
> AST VGA Plus
> Tall Tree Systems AT3-P w/JLaser-3 daughterboard
> Western Digital WD7000-ASC FASST2 SCSI Controller
> Ziatech IEEE 488 Interface for PS/2 Computers
> Everex 24E+ External Modem
> Epson FX-86e/286e Printer User's Manual
> Citizen Color Ribbon
> Okidata Okimate 20 Plug 'N Print for IBM PC and Compatibles
> Okidata Tractor Feed Option Kit (boxed)
> Memorex Epson MX-80 Printer Ribbon
> 3M DS,HD 5.25" Diskettes (10-pack)
> Dysan 100 MD2HD floppy diskette 10-pack
> Ohio Scientific 5.25" Mini Floppy Diskette (10-pack)
> Verbatim Datalife SS/DD 5.25" Minidisks (7-pack)
> Epson E95D0U External 5.25" Disk Drive
> Compaq MS-DOS Version 3 Reference Guide
> DEC PDP-8/L Instruction List reference card
> Osborne dBase II Version 2.3b (manual only)
> Altera MAX+plus II Programmable Logic Development System
> FHR Industries 1200 Intelligent Modem
> Commodore 64
> HP 92220R HPIB Right Angle Cable (1ft)
> HP10833B HPIB Cable (2m)
> SunRize Industries Perfect Sound
> Timex-Sinclair 1000
> Sinclair ZX81 case
> Apple Macintosh Plus (Platinum)
> Apple Macintosh SE w/Targus Carrying Case
>
> (Those are two different Commodore 64 units, one has a case "variation".)
>
> Links to the newly arrived items are here:
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit?pli=1&fbclid=IwAR29aeaPInesPowqSLeq_ElmtOwSThjfRAJyW9T_oN6mnjPPt4wO1CchMGQ#gid=949372371&range=A1
>
> I have discovered the myriad of Facebook vintage computing groups, so I
> have begun posting my sale lists there as well.  However, I will always
> post notifications of new lists here and on the VCFed forums 24 hours
> before I unleash them on the FB groups, which results in a deluge of
> activity.  In this way, I give you guys first stab at the action on the new
> stuff before the hordes descend upon it.  You are welcome.
>
> As always, please contact me directly by e-mail to inquire about an item.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sellam
>
>


From spectre at floodgap.com  Sat Jun 29 01:09:00 2019
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 23:09:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuMWk-mxFTuiEbc4-aHzW-fOzbaKJZk7MFAWq94YjTdCvQ@mail.gmail.com> from
 Paul Anderson via cctalk at "Jun 28, 19 11:06:25 pm"
Message-ID: <201906290609.x5T690JQ9830580@floodgap.com>

> If the note is in good condition, I'll buy it from you. I've been
> collecting US coins on and off for years, and started on GB coinage when I
> lived over there. Now I collect about everything, including currency, AND
> WILL TRADE COMPUTER ITEMS FOR COINS AND CURRENCY!

Oddly, I, too, will trade computer items for coins and currency. I like the
green kind with presidents. ;)

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- The best things in life are sold out. --------------------------------------

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Jun 29 01:19:11 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 23:19:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <201906290609.x5T690JQ9830580@floodgap.com>
References: <201906290609.x5T690JQ9830580@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906282317520.10025@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote:
> Oddly, I, too, will trade computer items for coins and currency. I like the
> green kind with presidents. ;)

Those are nice, but I'd rather have the ones with a picture of Ben 
Franklin, who was not a president.


From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 05:39:08 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 12:39:08 +0200
Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM
 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com>
 <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCG6gXyLZcTC_q5aQXyg5ezY=iLoLesqTcNLPgXFeWj6PA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 at 21:47, Electronics Plus via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Just for fun, I went to the bank and bought about $1000 in half dollar and dollar coins. My son collects them, and we went through them all. We did find some silver half dollars. The ones we are not keeping now go to whatever fast food or corner store is needed. Some like them, some hate them! Most tell me they have not seen them in years.

So they're not made any more? Interesting. Any particular reason? I
wonder if that is why I've never seen one.

US currency is very confusing to me. All the notes seem to be the same
size and colour, so you can't readily sort them. I mean, I know
America doesn't believe in helping people when they're sick, but it
wasn't until I visited that I realised you saved up particular hatred
for the blind and partially-sighted and went out of your way to make
life more difficult for them.

You use nicknames for 2 denominations which most of us foreigners
don't know -- I still don't know which is a "nickel" (which is a metal
to me) and which is a "dime" (which is a Swedish chocolate-covered
sweet bar, of which I'm very fond but can't eat because I'm
overweight).

And the base unit is a cent, but you call them "pennies", the base
unit of _my_ old country's currency, and you didn't even put the
symbol into ASCII.

Very weird.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 05:52:50 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 12:52:50 +0200
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCF6KtXAdt1fEAX5PcQZ9e8xO2tdBg9YMNxgf4sBB=2cZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 at 18:57, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Oh, FAR FAR FAR less than 5%.

*Chuckle*

> Most residents of USA haven't seen a half dollar or "50 cent piece" in
> decades.  They are as much of an oddity as the $2 bill.  They are
> nominally still in circulation, most recent being JFK, but I think that
> they stopped making them in 2002, and there are federal vaults full of
> uncirculated pre-2002 coins.  Most recent has a portrait of Kennedy.
> They are 30.61mm diameter, which is the largest relatively recent
> USA coin (not counting the long discontinued 38.1mm SILVER DOLLAR)

Oh!

Well, I thought I'd never seen one in my 3 visits to the USA.

> You could have just ASSUMED THAT IT WOULD BE logarithmically between a
> quarter[dollar] (24.26mm) and a dollar coin (26.5mm).  That would be
> completely WRONG, unless you use the 38.1mm ancient "silver dollar", but
> hardly a problem.

Oh heavens no. Coinage almost never makes that kind of sense. Nor banknotes.

When I was a child I was shown an old British ?5 note. As in, from my
parents' childhood. Not kept as a souvenir but lost somewhere as it
was a very significant amount of money.

It was _vast_ to my child's eyes. It looked approximately the size of
a pillowcase or something. It looked like linen, not money. More like
a joke teatowel printed with a spare, fancy currency-like design I'd
never seen.

It was scored with deep lines as you had to fold them into eighths or
something to put them into your wallet.

Even as a kid this briefly excited me with the notion that pre-WW2
banknotes scaled for area by value, and I had visions of buying
furniture or something with ?20 notes the size of bedsheets, or ?50
notes that needed to be unrolled outdoors like a carpet for
inspection...

Of course it wasn't *really...* Sadly...

> "50 pence coin" would be CLOSE ENOUGH.

Aha!

> Actually, for THIS purpose, "large coin" is as accurate as you need.
> Just as I am not at all familiar with British currency, that hasn't
> dampened my appreciation of British TV, such as Doctor Who and a variety
> of Brit-coms.

:-D

> "Silver dollar" used to be a large coin. (38.1mm)  It was the standard for
> casinos.  When it was discontinued (1935), the casinos started to mint
> their own chips/tokens as a replacement.  There was a brief attempt to
> revive the silver dollar in 1971 with the "Eisenhower Dollar".
> It is quite rare that you will encounter one of the "large dollars".

This I had never heard of. Thanks.

> The Susan B Anthony dollar (1979-1981)
> http://www.smalldollars.com/
> was never widely accepted, mostly because it was MUCH MUCH too close to a
> quarter in size.  (26.5mm V 24.26mm)  Different edge milling is NOT
> ENOUGH.  It COULD have been widely accepted, if the gubmint were to have
> given a tax incentive to have video games that took a quarter to provide
> five games for a "Carter Quarter"; and the "quantity sale" would have
> been so profitable that the tax incentive would only have to have been
> short term.
> It is quite rare that you will encounter one.
>
> It was later replaced with the Sacajewa dollar.  Same problem.
> It is quite rare that you will encounter one.
>
> Then there was a commemorative series (gold colored) of presidents of USA.
> Change of COLOR is NOT ENOUGH.
> It is quite rare that you will encounter one.

Czech coinage does something unique in my experience.

The _small_ denominations are silver. The larger ones are copper/brass/whatever.

This is the reverse of I think every other country I've ever visited.

> And, I understand that the gubmint is planning an "American innovation"
> commemorative series.  We are far too arrogant to learn from our mistakes.
> It will be quite rare that you will encounter one.

:-(

> But, the states of USA commemorative quarters were so popular that they
> followed that with national parks commemorative quarters.
> The quarter is the largest USA coin that you are likely to encounter
> in circulation.

It's the biggest I've seen, which is in part why a half-dollar threw me.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 05:53:54 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 12:53:54 +0200
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfof5YmOCjh2mJQwerHWaQJuNNFxkb3n01rrb7V=wq_sYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com>
 <6b46ed05-aaec-422f-1dc9-5dfa07baa73d@sydex.com>
 <CANCZdfof5YmOCjh2mJQwerHWaQJuNNFxkb3n01rrb7V=wq_sYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCF1wh+y1OXH5tm-UAyDTVRGco0Rovt9Rxnv4D_3oKQGWw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 at 22:50, Warner Losh via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Yea, I'm just the right age to have seen them in circulation and have it as
> a unit of measure for "just bigger than an inch". Sorry for the crazy
> measurement...

It's fine really. It's provoked an interesting if offtopic conversation.

I was thrown because I'd never even heard of one before, I think.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 05:55:31 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 12:55:31 +0200
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <c36b27dc-cfff-542d-148d-752e07545e5a@crash.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <B5EBB6DC-EA25-4850-BFA6-A443B1E06E5C@snowmoose.com>
 <74369c5a-0e72-ae37-25d3-630149de20c3@gmail.com>
 <566D3503-B031-40E3-8B0D-7EC558C72840@snowmoose.com>
 <c36b27dc-cfff-542d-148d-752e07545e5a@crash.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGzZWzF7P1ia0uUpDjt-CXzrSYrh7PH5e-KrGvnLz18GA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 at 22:55, Steven M Jones via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Two weeks ago I was in London, and had brought my pound notes/coins from
> a visit a few years earlier. When trying to buy lunch, the cashier
> refused my ?10 note since new ?5 and ?10 notes had been issued over a
> year before. I was advised I could change it at a bank...

Yep. I had this at Easter last year.

The first time I took my Czech girlfriend to visit England.

The airport bus refused my "tenner".

I have been away long enough, they've changed the money. This shook me
as well as annoying me.


-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 06:39:34 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 07:39:34 -0400
Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM
 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCG6gXyLZcTC_q5aQXyg5ezY=iLoLesqTcNLPgXFeWj6PA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com>
 <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com>
 <CAMTenCG6gXyLZcTC_q5aQXyg5ezY=iLoLesqTcNLPgXFeWj6PA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddpCxhzznF7c-rBwE0S3JfAuWB4pucpz9eeLoJ5fW=ATw@mail.gmail.com>

> US currency is very confusing to me. All the notes seem to be the same
> size and colour, so you can't readily sort them. I mean, I know
> America doesn't believe in helping people when they're sick, but it
> wasn't until I visited that I realised you saved up particular hatred
> for the blind and partially-sighted and went out of your way to make
> life more difficult for them.

Your knowledge is way out of date. US currency changed about twenty
years ago, partially to benefit the blind. Other than the one dollar
note, they all now have much larger portraits, big plain numbers on
the back, and subtle color variations. There is a tradeoff in the
design - the mint makes them distinctive enough for the blind, yet
identical enough to force people to actually look at the notes.

Additionally, the newer brass color dollar coins are fairly successful
with the blind. They have a distinct color and edge, which does make
them very easy to distinguish from the Quarter, unlike the earlier
Susan B Anthony coin.

--
Will

From cym224 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 07:15:12 2019
From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 08:15:12 -0400
Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM
 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCG6gXyLZcTC_q5aQXyg5ezY=iLoLesqTcNLPgXFeWj6PA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com>
 <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC>
 <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com>
 <CAMTenCG6gXyLZcTC_q5aQXyg5ezY=iLoLesqTcNLPgXFeWj6PA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <df9015f2-1747-306b-1df6-b88275bc1bf4@gmail.com>

On 06/29/19 06:39, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote (in part):
> US currency is very confusing to me. All the notes seem to be the same
> size and colour, so you can't readily sort them.
Some countries also put Braille dots (besides the different colours).  
Does the US have any such plans?

N.

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sat Jun 29 07:58:14 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 08:58:14 -0400
Subject: OT: the end of Dyn DNS
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBufk8JO9yQmyVk_RX5kUGDrtcCP0cvdRQZ6avVumpzXnQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAq7DHqOpC242yBTe43MpXM6moytpMgg13QTosN-GrG1yP9=Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <66ceccce-fa78-28b9-4cc2-9b184e423504@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <01b401d52cac$db773f40$9265bdc0$@net>
 <CAAq7DHp09DdUWzNJ_XaNHMczqC7O_v9P5Z2NmzQ5vM2aUiQDHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufk8JO9yQmyVk_RX5kUGDrtcCP0cvdRQZ6avVumpzXnQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F527EFD4-379F-4AF9-BBDE-914844E71F78@comcast.net>



> On Jun 28, 2019, at 10:56 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> ...
>> 
> I have had my own DNS for 20 years, it's pretty simple stuff. ...
> 
> So, jumping in late to this conversation, why does it matter that Dyn
> and/or Oracle do not supply this service? 

In my case, it isn't the DNS service but the dynamic part that matters.  I want a name for my home system, which gets its address from the ISP and that address changes from time to time.  

	paul


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Jun 29 08:57:20 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 06:57:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM
 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCG6gXyLZcTC_q5aQXyg5ezY=iLoLesqTcNLPgXFeWj6PA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com>
 <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com>
 <CAMTenCG6gXyLZcTC_q5aQXyg5ezY=iLoLesqTcNLPgXFeWj6PA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906290636080.18717@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 29 Jun 2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> US currency is very confusing to me. All the notes seem to be the same
> size and colour, so you can't readily sort them. I mean, I know
> America doesn't believe in helping people when they're sick, but it
> wasn't until I visited that I realised you saved up particular hatred
> for the blind and partially-sighted and went out of your way to make
> life more difficult for them.

USA makes a pretense of accommodating disabilities, but is actually pretty 
hostile to the disabled.
The "new" paper currency, that is s'posedly good for blind people has 
slightly different shades of the same colors.

USA paper currency used to be the size of punchcards.  So, if one were to 
have a LOT of it, you could use the same trays, and counting machines, 
etc.  Do you suppose that Hollerith had a lot of paper currency?
"If Hollerith were alive today, how many birthdays would he have had?" 
requires being aware that 1900 was NOT a leap year.


> You use nicknames for 2 denominations which most of us foreigners
> don't know -- I still don't know which is a "nickel" (which is a metal
> to me) and which is a "dime" (which is a Swedish chocolate-covered
> sweet bar, of which I'm very fond but can't eat because I'm
> overweight).

A "Dime" is one tenth of a dollar.  Or ten cents.  Or $10 worth of drugs.
The coin is 17.91mm diameter, and the smallest coin in circulation.

A "Nickel" is five cents.  or $5 worth of drugs.
The coin is 21.21mm, and is between a penny and a quarter in size.

"Silver Dollar pancakes" are actually larger than a silver dollar, but 
nobody complains.

> And the base unit is a cent, but you call them "pennies", the base
> unit of _my_ old country's currency, and you didn't even put the
> symbol into ASCII.
Pennies used to be copper.  Now, they are mostly zinc, due to copper 
costing more than a penny.  But, they managed to maintain the copper 
color.  During WW2, pennies were briefly made out of steel.
6 decades ago, pennies said "One Cent" on the back, with pictures of 
wheat; then they changed to a picture of the Lincoln memorial, which is at 
the end of Memorial bridge in Washington, DC.


> Very weird.
Our parent country taught us to make currency weird, and we have carried 
on the tradition.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Jun 29 09:09:56 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 07:09:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCF6KtXAdt1fEAX5PcQZ9e8xO2tdBg9YMNxgf4sBB=2cZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCF6KtXAdt1fEAX5PcQZ9e8xO2tdBg9YMNxgf4sBB=2cZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906290659580.18717@shell.lmi.net>

>> "Silver dollar" used to be a large coin. (38.1mm)  It was the standard for
>> casinos.  When it was discontinued (1935), the casinos started to mint
>> their own chips/tokens as a replacement.  There was a brief attempt to
>> revive the silver dollar in 1971 with the "Eisenhower Dollar".
>> It is quite rare that you will encounter one of the "large dollars".

On Sat, 29 Jun 2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> This I had never heard of. Thanks.

Go to Las Vegas, and find one of the few casinos that still has coin clot 
machines (Circus-Circus? El Cortez?) (where's the excitement in scanning a 
credit card, and winning a piece of paper to take to the cashier's cage?), 
and buy a dollar coin.  It is the casino's imitation of a silver dollar. 
Put it into a slot machine, and you will never see it again.  Unless the 
machine malfunctions and spits out one or more into a bowl that is 
optimized for making loud noise.

From mike.niswonger at cox.net  Sat Jun 29 10:50:06 2019
From: mike.niswonger at cox.net (Mike Niswonger)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 10:50:06 -0500
Subject: Identifying some boards
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUz8VAP9garCOevSS8Sv=HvREW88uoj+M3Zes_Wr9J6adA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUz8VAP9garCOevSS8Sv=HvREW88uoj+M3Zes_Wr9J6adA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <de186872-1e50-a865-10db-78b9321b2405@cox.net>

Originally, System Engineering Laboratories (SEL) out of Fort Lauderdale 
(later bought by Gould (Gould SEL), then NEC and finally spun off as 
Encore) built one of the original 32 bit mini computers (and later 
super-minicomputers) in the 70's -90's.

Popular for large flight simulators and nuclear power plant control, 
they were high performance real-time computers.

The instruction set was designed and implemented in many technologies.? 
In the latter days, micro-programmed bit slice architecture enabled the 
company to squeeze the performance of a multi board CPU set down onto a 
single board.

The VERY large connectors seen were the standard backplane, the SELbus.? 
The central pins were actually the bus itself, while pins on the end 
were carried through the backplane to create an IO bus where boards 
plugged onto the BACK of the backplane.

The instruction set was nice and easy to code in assembly.? The machines 
I worked with in the early 80s )32/87, 32/8780, 32/9780) were typically 
about 4 times faster than a VAX 11/780 and considerably faster for 
interrupt response in a real-time environment.? The primary OS was 
called MPX-32. though machines with a slightly modified instruction set 
(called PowerNodes - PN9000) ran a Unix variant.

Primary programming languages were FORTRAN and assembly.

This class of machine (minicomputers) of course fell to the side once 
microprocessors picked up speed in the 90s...

The architecture is generally referred to as SEL32 - there is a mostly 
complete SIMH implementation of this architecture that needs some more 
testing and debugging.

Those were fun times.

Mike Niswonger,
crufty old minicomputer and FORTRAN programmer


On 6/24/19 10:16 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote:
> I picked up these boards many weeks ago, but haven't photographed them
> until recently. Some of them are pretty disgusting, but some of the others
> look alright.
>
> Anyone have any idea what these came out of? Some are labeled Gould, others
> are labeled Encore.
>
> http://imgur.com/a/d9iK9qb
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kyle
>


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun 29 11:17:15 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 09:17:15 -0700
Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM
 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCG6gXyLZcTC_q5aQXyg5ezY=iLoLesqTcNLPgXFeWj6PA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com>
 <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC>
 <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com>
 <CAMTenCG6gXyLZcTC_q5aQXyg5ezY=iLoLesqTcNLPgXFeWj6PA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5a4cceb5-2962-550b-0662-d365787381c8@sydex.com>

On 6/29/19 3:39 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:

> You use nicknames for 2 denominations which most of us foreigners
> don't know -- I still don't know which is a "nickel" (which is a metal
> to me) and which is a "dime" (which is a Swedish chocolate-covered
> sweet bar, of which I'm very fond but can't eat because I'm
> overweight).

There we share a culture with the British (e.g. "tanner", "quid",
"nicker", "guinea").

However,I'll also say that younger Americans are unfamiliar with older
US slang for various denominations. For example, "bit" = 12.5 cents
hails back to the Spanish custom of dividing the Real (milled
dollar--wonder how many young Spaniards know about that?) into eight
pieces, hence, "pieces of eight".  So "two bits" is a quarter dollar
(our term "dollar" hails back to the Bohemian "Joachimsthaler").

Fin = 5 dollars, sawbuck = 10 dollars, double-sawbuck = 20 dollars, frog
= 50 dollars, C-note = 100 dollars...

--Chuck


From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 12:51:49 2019
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 14:51:49 -0300
Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM
 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <df9015f2-1747-306b-1df6-b88275bc1bf4@gmail.com>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
 <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com>
 <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC>
 <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com>
 <CAMTenCG6gXyLZcTC_q5aQXyg5ezY=iLoLesqTcNLPgXFeWj6PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <df9015f2-1747-306b-1df6-b88275bc1bf4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <94d656d2-0f13-db55-53b1-023f5c4950ad@gmail.com>


On 2019-06-29 9:15 a.m., Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote:
> On 06/29/19 06:39, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote (in part):
>> US currency is very confusing to me. All the notes seem to be the same
>> size and colour, so you can't readily sort them.
> Some countries also put Braille dots (besides the different colours).? 
> Does the US have any such plans?
>
> N.

Canada has had braille dots on its notes.? In late 2011 Canadian notes 
switch from cotton/paper to plastic which makes braille dots easy and 
durable.? Each denomination of note is also a different colourCanadian 
coins are the same denominations as US coins and are mostly the same 
size.? In Canada the five cent piece was likely called a nickel because 
when the original silver 5 cent piece, that was smaller than a dime, was 
replaced by a larger coin of base metal, it was nearly pure nickel.? 
Canada also has a 50 cent piece, but like the US they are not circulated 
much.? The last time I relieved one in change was 40 years ago when 
crossing the international bridge at Cornwall ON. the toll was an even 
half dollar increment so when you got change for the toll gates they 
gave you 50 cent pieces.? I still have one or two of them.

Paul.


From classiccmp at earthlink.net  Sat Jun 29 11:13:09 2019
From: classiccmp at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 09:13:09 -0700
Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an
 IBM 5100 using OCR
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com>
 <CANCZdfpZ2D3+-EyAoeOZWMV5tT6Z7-iqs=WAxQ85R3s=vt+6zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhT=mqcjbRA75L4zTaK_KfMwfH-WdRLeuP_+CR5OgPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906280848360.10025@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <9b24e820-a9d5-ccb9-06a4-31222f6aae64@earthlink.net>

Washington State Ferries still use 50 cent pieces and 2 dollar bills a lot.

After years of receiving them as change, I finally asked why?  The 
reason is they reduce the number of hand movements by one half.  If 
you're sitting in a kiosk all day dolling out change, it can reduce 
repetitive wrist/elbow ailments.

On 6/28/19 9:57 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> I saw this half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what 
>>> it was for.
> 
> On Fri, 28 Jun 2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
>> If I may just say -- only about 5% of humanity know how big that is. I
>> don't. I don't even know if a half a dollar is a note or a coin, and
>> that's without getting extra-pedantic and pointing out that about a
>> dozen countries call their currencies the "dollar".
>> :-(
> 
> Oh, FAR FAR FAR less than 5%.
> Most residents of USA haven't seen a half dollar or "50 cent piece" in 
> decades.? They are as much of an oddity as the $2 bill.? They are 
> nominally still in circulation, most recent being JFK, but I think that 
> they stopped making them in 2002, and there are federal vaults full of 
> uncirculated pre-2002 coins.? Most recent has a portrait of Kennedy. 
> They are 30.61mm diameter, which is the largest relatively recent USA 
> coin (not counting the long discontinued 38.1mm SILVER DOLLAR)
> 
> You could have just ASSUMED THAT IT WOULD BE logarithmically between a 
> quarter[dollar] (24.26mm) and a dollar coin (26.5mm).? That would be 
> completely WRONG, unless you use the 38.1mm ancient "silver dollar", but 
> hardly a problem.
> 
> "50 pence coin" would be CLOSE ENOUGH.
> Actually, for THIS purpose, "large coin" is as accurate as you need. 
> Just as I am not at all familiar with British currency, that hasn't 
> dampened my appreciation of British TV, such as Doctor Who and a variety 
> of Brit-coms.
> 
> 
> "Silver dollar" used to be a large coin. (38.1mm)? It was the standard 
> for casinos.? When it was discontinued (1935), the casinos started to 
> mint their own chips/tokens as a replacement.? There was a brief attempt 
> to revive the silver dollar in 1971 with the "Eisenhower Dollar".
> It is quite rare that you will encounter one of the "large dollars".
> 
> The Susan B Anthony dollar (1979-1981)
> http://www.smalldollars.com/
> was never widely accepted, mostly because it was MUCH MUCH too close to 
> a quarter in size.? (26.5mm V 24.26mm)? Different edge milling is NOT 
> ENOUGH.? It COULD have been widely accepted, if the gubmint were to have 
> given a tax incentive to have video games that took a quarter to provide 
> five games for a "Carter Quarter"; and the "quantity sale" would have 
> been so profitable that the tax incentive would only have to have been 
> short term.
> It is quite rare that you will encounter one.
> 
> It was later replaced with the Sacajewa dollar.? Same problem.
> It is quite rare that you will encounter one.
> 
> Then there was a commemorative series (gold colored) of presidents of 
> USA. Change of COLOR is NOT ENOUGH.
> It is quite rare that you will encounter one.
> 
> And, I understand that the gubmint is planning an "American innovation" 
> commemorative series.? We are far too arrogant to learn from our mistakes.
> It will be quite rare that you will encounter one.
> 
> 
> But, the states of USA commemorative quarters were so popular that they 
> followed that with national parks commemorative quarters.
> The quarter is the largest USA coin that you are likely to encounter in 
> circulation.
> 
> -- 
> Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com
> 

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Jun 29 14:10:45 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 12:10:45 -0700
Subject: Anyone have an Ethernet interface card for an AT&T 730 terminal?
Message-ID: <c076048d-bfb8-a5d2-d597-ad3f3ca50cc0@bitsavers.org>

I just finished taking pictures and dumping the firmware from a 730X terminal
but it turns out it has a Starlan and not an Ethernet interface. It would be
nice to get a firmware dump from an Ethernet card. A start of a 630 driver is
in MAME.

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/att/730/730X

It also appears the keyboards for the 630 and 730 aren't backwards compatible
with the other 6xx products and the 5620. 5620 keyboards need -12v which the 630 or 730
don't supply, and the 610 keyboard doesn't appear to work either. Josh took a couple
of pictures of his 630 keyboard and even though they look similar, the earlier keyboards
were made by Teletype and the 630 is made by Keytronic.



From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 15:21:22 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:21:22 -0700
Subject: Anyone have an Ethernet interface card for an AT&T 730 terminal?
In-Reply-To: <c076048d-bfb8-a5d2-d597-ad3f3ca50cc0@bitsavers.org>
References: <c076048d-bfb8-a5d2-d597-ad3f3ca50cc0@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLaJPSfiLQBXrjbtv9Of3B4F+q7WRRVMkg-YrU4LZtWdKQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 12:17 PM Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> I just finished taking pictures and dumping the firmware from a 730X
> terminal
> but it turns out it has a Starlan and not an Ethernet interface. It would
> be
> nice to get a firmware dump from an Ethernet card. A start of a 630 driver
> is
> in MAME.
>

Mine has a Starlan 10 adapter in it, which is apparently close enough to
twisted-pair Ethernet that it can be bridged with one of AT&T's Starlan
hubs, which is how I have it wired to my network.  I'll see if I can dump
the ROMs, but they're not socketed so it'll take a bit of surgery.  I also
have the ISDN adapter, which has socketed EPROMs.

- Josh



>
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/att/730/730X
>
> It also appears the keyboards for the 630 and 730 aren't backwards
> compatible
> with the other 6xx products and the 5620. 5620 keyboards need -12v which
> the 630 or 730
> don't supply, and the 610 keyboard doesn't appear to work either. Josh
> took a couple
> of pictures of his 630 keyboard and even though they look similar, the
> earlier keyboards
> were made by Teletype and the 630 is made by Keytronic.
>
>
>

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 15:38:39 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:38:39 -0700
Subject: Anyone have an Ethernet interface card for an AT&T 730 terminal?
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLaJPSfiLQBXrjbtv9Of3B4F+q7WRRVMkg-YrU4LZtWdKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c076048d-bfb8-a5d2-d597-ad3f3ca50cc0@bitsavers.org>
 <CADBZjLaJPSfiLQBXrjbtv9Of3B4F+q7WRRVMkg-YrU4LZtWdKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLaG=00Q9=5upnkgTerMyWUwVtpcNiRdpif8vUF7YkuHVg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 1:21 PM Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 12:17 PM Al Kossow via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> I just finished taking pictures and dumping the firmware from a 730X
>> terminal
>> but it turns out it has a Starlan and not an Ethernet interface. It would
>> be
>> nice to get a firmware dump from an Ethernet card. A start of a 630
>> driver is
>> in MAME.
>>
>
> Mine has a Starlan 10 adapter in it, which is apparently close enough to
> twisted-pair Ethernet that it can be bridged with one of AT&T's Starlan
> hubs, which is how I have it wired to my network.  I'll see if I can dump
> the ROMs, but they're not socketed so it'll take a bit of surgery.  I also
> have the ISDN adapter, which has socketed EPROMs.
>

Also my 730X cart is newer -- it's the 730+ X Cartridge, Issue 1.2 (c)
1991.  I'll get those dumped too, hopefully this weekend.

- Josh



>
> - Josh
>
>
>
>>
>> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/att/730/730X
>>
>> It also appears the keyboards for the 630 and 730 aren't backwards
>> compatible
>> with the other 6xx products and the 5620. 5620 keyboards need -12v which
>> the 630 or 730
>> don't supply, and the 610 keyboard doesn't appear to work either. Josh
>> took a couple
>> of pictures of his 630 keyboard and even though they look similar, the
>> earlier keyboards
>> were made by Teletype and the 630 is made by Keytronic.
>>
>>
>>

From marvin at west.net  Sat Jun 29 17:01:07 2019
From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 15:01:07 -0700
Subject: Latest Additions to the Virtual Warehouse of Computing, > Wonders
 Sale Inventory
Message-ID: <84ee7f48-6bab-bec5-bea2-dc6628292cfa@west.net>


FYI, it is unlikely there would have been a VCF without Sellam. He 
basically started it (with his own money) and continued through the 
first 10 years or so. Many others help support VCF (and continue to do 
so even though Sellam backed out some number of years ago.)

I, for one, fully support Sellam in his effots to move out his 
inventory, and have never seen him sell anything at 10x prices.

Marvin

> From: Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com>
> 
> Anybody try business with this guy?
> His prices are 10X off the chart


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Jun 29 17:21:31 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 15:21:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Latest Additions to the Virtual Warehouse of Computing, > Wonders
 Sale Inventory
In-Reply-To: <84ee7f48-6bab-bec5-bea2-dc6628292cfa@west.net>
References: <84ee7f48-6bab-bec5-bea2-dc6628292cfa@west.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906291510390.18717@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 29 Jun 2019, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote:
> FYI, it is unlikely there would have been a VCF without Sellam. He basically 
> started it (with his own money) and continued through the first 10 years or 
> so. Many others help support VCF (and continue to do so even though Sellam 
> backed out some number of years ago.)

Many thanks to Sellam those who continue it!
I didn't get an adequate chance to thank Evan at the show last year.


> I, for one, fully support Sellam in his effots to move out his inventory, and 
> have never seen him sell anything at 10x prices.

10x??!?

An Imsai 8080 is s'posed to sell for $599 ($931 assembled)
An Apple 1 is s'posed to sell for $666.66
A TRS-80 is s'posed to be $599.95, with monitor and cassette player.
A 5150 is s'posed to be $1281, easily $1565 with base features, and up.
What kind of "capitalist profiteers" would go with what the market 
will bear, and charge more?


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com



From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Sat Jun 29 17:11:41 2019
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 23:11:41 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: DNS and Registrar
In-Reply-To: <f373b435-643d-40d0-90c1-dff699f85495@www.fastmail.com>
References: <a26c2c54-0c2f-9292-62b0-f56089101ebf@jwsss.com>
 <01R8EG3P4QVO8WWZLL@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <01R8GN5F2KRO8WY43U@beyondthepale.ie>

Seth Morabito wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019, at 2:07 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:
> > [...] so my response is to filter out anything to do with Linode from
> > here.
>
> This is something of a touchy subject for me because I have been a Linode
> customer for over a decade, and have always been extraordinarily happy with
> their service.
>

It's going to get interesting for me too because the DNS registrar that is
looking after my domain name seems to be using them too and I am now having
difficulty reaching their website since I started filtering Linode.  This
is all going to come to a crunch when it is time to renew my domain name
registration in November.  I have tried to alert the registrar to the issues
I am having with Linode but I have received no response from them.  I only
changed to the current registrar last year after the previous one kept sending
me spam and ignored my complaints about it...

>
> THAT SAID: I had to stop running my own mail server about two years ago,
> after the failure rate of delivery became too high. Part of that was
> because of Google, but I'm sure another good part was due to Linode IP
> addresses ending up on blacklists.
>

Speaking of which, I have noticed a correlation between a provider's use of
Google email infrastructure instead of their own email infrastructure to
accepts or reply to abuse reports (such as Linode does for example) and
said provider's attempts to avoid the consequences of dubious practices on
their part.

>
> It has been a very long time since I looked at the competition, but I'm
> very open to switching. Do you (or anyone else for that matter) have
> providers you would recommend?
>

Sorry, I don't have any ideas.  I expect the market is completely different
where you are to where I am, nearly a third of the world away.

>
> -Seth
> -- 
>   Seth Morabito
>   Poulsbo, WA
>   web at loomcom.com
>

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat Jun 29 21:18:35 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 20:18:35 -0600
Subject: Latest Additions to the Virtual Warehouse of Computing, > Wonders
 Sale Inventory
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906291510390.18717@shell.lmi.net>
References: <84ee7f48-6bab-bec5-bea2-dc6628292cfa@west.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906291510390.18717@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <fbde5847-19fd-c1a5-53d1-54dc8307f571@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 6/29/2019 4:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> An Imsai 8080 is s'posed to sell for $599 ($931 assembled)
> An Apple 1 is s'posed to sell for $666.66
> A TRS-80 is s'posed to be $599.95, with monitor and cassette player.
> A 5150 is s'posed to be $1281, easily $1565 with base features, and up.
> What kind of "capitalist profiteers" would go with what the market will 
> bear, and charge more?

The real question, did any one ever buy  BIG IRON computers as NEW on 
this list.

> 
> -- 
> Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com
> 
Ben.




From cctalk at snarc.net  Sat Jun 29 20:18:09 2019
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 21:18:09 -0400
Subject: Latest Additions to the Virtual Warehouse of Computing, > Wonders
 Sale Inventory
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906291510390.18717@shell.lmi.net>
References: <84ee7f48-6bab-bec5-bea2-dc6628292cfa@west.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906291510390.18717@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <97fdd7f9-66e3-3389-42a6-daefd6580baf@snarc.net>


>> FYI, it is unlikely there would have been a VCF without Sellam. He 
>> basically started it (with his own money) and continued through the 
>> first 10 years or so. Many others help support VCF (and continue to 
>> do so even though Sellam backed out some number of years ago.)
>
> Many thanks to Sellam those who continue it!
> I didn't get an adequate chance to thank Evan at the show last year.

You're welcome! But I wasn't able to attend in person last year. Erik 
Klein ran it for us.


From joe at barrera.org  Sun Jun 30 02:37:50 2019
From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 00:37:50 -0700
Subject: Latest Additions to the Virtual Warehouse of Computing, > Wonders
 Sale Inventory
In-Reply-To: <84ee7f48-6bab-bec5-bea2-dc6628292cfa@west.net>
References: <84ee7f48-6bab-bec5-bea2-dc6628292cfa@west.net>
Message-ID: <CAH9yS4QFqyaWr0b==2LRPNXDDeh1ybVrFojVowKn+H2SCank8g@mail.gmail.com>

Hear, hear. Sellam is one of the few good ones. You don't like the prices,
don't buy, but he's been a good member of the community for decades. Sellam
is a true collector and enthusiast and that's why he has such a huge
inventory. I helped him on one of his moves and it was massive at the time.
I'm really glad he's disbursing his inventory now, and grateful that he has
kept so many machines in good storage when so, so many other machines have
been recycled or just trashed.

On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 3:01 PM Marvin Johnston via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> FYI, it is unlikely there would have been a VCF without Sellam. He
> basically started it (with his own money) and continued through the
> first 10 years or so. Many others help support VCF (and continue to do
> so even though Sellam backed out some number of years ago.)
>
> I, for one, fully support Sellam in his effots to move out his
> inventory, and have never seen him sell anything at 10x prices.
>
> Marvin
>
> > From: Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com>
> >
> > Anybody try business with this guy?
> > His prices are 10X off the chart
>
>

From mokuba at gmail.com  Sun Jun 30 04:15:51 2019
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 05:15:51 -0400
Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 or compatible floppy drive wanted (Or help with
 current one?)
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh7X-6co1WgC7ihMFE_d-aNo3ez4JLXKvCxmZfEFwrgmcg@mail.gmail.com>

Hey all, i'm having a fair amount of trouble with my PS/2's floppy drive...
wanted to back up my BBS and none of the disks i put in would read or
format!

Oddly though, it WILL boot a disk that's inserted on power-on.

I hear it try and hit the disk a few times while in dos repeatedly before
failing with the R/A/F options ... and format tries to read it, then goes
attempts to format it, and can't find sector 0 .....

I'm really confused about those symptoms since it boots the only bootable
disk I had on hand - ironically spinrite 6 (I'm aware of how useful it
is...) - so i'm looking at replacing it ... or figuring out what's wrong
with it that it can boot a disk just fine, but not use one while in DOS ?


.... and by wiggling the floppy a bit I just got it to format a disk while
in the ... drive, and now it's making the noise it did before and stalling
occasionally.

Perhaps the disk just isn't catching fully?

-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG

From mokuba at gmail.com  Sun Jun 30 04:32:59 2019
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 05:32:59 -0400
Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 or compatible floppy drive wanted (Or help with
 current one?)
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh7X-6co1WgC7ihMFE_d-aNo3ez4JLXKvCxmZfEFwrgmcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7X-6co1WgC7ihMFE_d-aNo3ez4JLXKvCxmZfEFwrgmcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh7vUEVFrQoMUVPvZQpxf4-2abb6WgBhBnLG7dj8JNdd0w@mail.gmail.com>

It... seems to be working reliably again now.

I'd still be interested in finding a spare/compatible, even if it's a bare
drive without the card edge connector, but somehow now that i've been
prodding it and doing absolutely nothing different other than booting off
it a few times, it seems to be operating just fine under DOS 5

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 5:15 AM Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey all, i'm having a fair amount of trouble with my PS/2's floppy
> drive... wanted to back up my BBS and none of the disks i put in would read
> or format!
>
> Oddly though, it WILL boot a disk that's inserted on power-on.
>
> I hear it try and hit the disk a few times while in dos repeatedly before
> failing with the R/A/F options ... and format tries to read it, then goes
> attempts to format it, and can't find sector 0 .....
>
> I'm really confused about those symptoms since it boots the only bootable
> disk I had on hand - ironically spinrite 6 (I'm aware of how useful it
> is...) - so i'm looking at replacing it ... or figuring out what's wrong
> with it that it can boot a disk just fine, but not use one while in DOS ?
>
>
> .... and by wiggling the floppy a bit I just got it to format a disk while
> in the ... drive, and now it's making the noise it did before and stalling
> occasionally.
>
> Perhaps the disk just isn't catching fully?
>
> --
> Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
> KB3HAG
>


-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Jun 30 11:27:30 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 12:27:30 -0400
Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 or compatible floppy drive wanted (Or help with
 current one?)
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh7vUEVFrQoMUVPvZQpxf4-2abb6WgBhBnLG7dj8JNdd0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7X-6co1WgC7ihMFE_d-aNo3ez4JLXKvCxmZfEFwrgmcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7vUEVFrQoMUVPvZQpxf4-2abb6WgBhBnLG7dj8JNdd0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudM4hbQfRgZ9_sDNKXAsza10HTahrLk5C6meZF9nm-MWA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 5:33 AM Gary Sparkes via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> It... seems to be working reliably again now.
>
> I'd still be interested in finding a spare/compatible, even if it's a bare
> drive without the card edge connector, but somehow now that i've been
> prodding it and doing absolutely nothing different other than booting off
> it a few times, it seems to be operating just fine under DOS 5
>
> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 5:15 AM Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hey all, i'm having a fair amount of trouble with my PS/2's floppy
> > drive... wanted to back up my BBS and none of the disks i put in would
> read
> > or format!
> >
> > Oddly though, it WILL boot a disk that's inserted on power-on.
> >
> > I hear it try and hit the disk a few times while in dos repeatedly before
> > failing with the R/A/F options ... and format tries to read it, then goes
> > attempts to format it, and can't find sector 0 .....
> >
> > I'm really confused about those symptoms since it boots the only bootable
> > disk I had on hand - ironically spinrite 6 (I'm aware of how useful it
> > is...) - so i'm looking at replacing it ... or figuring out what's wrong
> > with it that it can boot a disk just fine, but not use one while in DOS ?
> >
> >
> > .... and by wiggling the floppy a bit I just got it to format a disk
> while
> > in the ... drive, and now it's making the noise it did before and
> stalling
> > occasionally.
> >
> > Perhaps the disk just isn't catching fully?
> >
> > --
> > Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
> > KB3HAG
> >
>
>
>
>
It could be that you need to "grease the skids".  I'd try a cleaning and
re-grease moving parts (although there are less because they don't auto
eject like a MAC of the era.  Observe the operation of the drive with the
cover removed..

I have to check but I think there is a "regular" 3.5 to PS/2 drive adapter
around, someone selling one?  IIRC the PS/2's need a power line (or two)
merged into pin X (?).  It may be worth it to investigate the possibility
of buying or making an adapter as these PS/2 drives are becoming hard to
find.

Bill

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Sun Jun 30 12:07:47 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 11:07:47 -0600
Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 or compatible floppy drive wanted (Or help with
 current one?)
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh7vUEVFrQoMUVPvZQpxf4-2abb6WgBhBnLG7dj8JNdd0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7X-6co1WgC7ihMFE_d-aNo3ez4JLXKvCxmZfEFwrgmcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7vUEVFrQoMUVPvZQpxf4-2abb6WgBhBnLG7dj8JNdd0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18f44b64-a40f-4362-1a2e-2fe20ce4f59d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 6/30/19 3:32 AM, Gary Sparkes via cctalk wrote:
> I'd still be interested in finding a spare/compatible, even if it's 
> a bare drive without the card edge connector


I would suggest inquiring in the comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware newsgroup.

I fairly regularly see discussions about using regular floppy drives 
with adapter cables in PS/2s.

I /think/ the IDE signaling is electrically compatible with PC floppy 
drives.  The main difference is the form factor and the fact that power 
goes over the PS/2 cabling / back plane connector.

If nothing else, you'll likely get three or four "I have a spare I'll 
sell for a reasonable price" type responses.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun 30 14:28:16 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 12:28:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 or compatible floppy drive wanted (Or help
 with current one?)
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudM4hbQfRgZ9_sDNKXAsza10HTahrLk5C6meZF9nm-MWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7X-6co1WgC7ihMFE_d-aNo3ez4JLXKvCxmZfEFwrgmcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7vUEVFrQoMUVPvZQpxf4-2abb6WgBhBnLG7dj8JNdd0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudM4hbQfRgZ9_sDNKXAsza10HTahrLk5C6meZF9nm-MWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906301223560.25442@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 30 Jun 2019, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> I have to check but I think there is a "regular" 3.5 to PS/2 drive adapter
> around, someone selling one?  IIRC the PS/2's need a power line (or two)
> merged into pin X (?).  It may be worth it to investigate the possibility
> of buying or making an adapter as these PS/2 drives are becoming hard to
> find.

I might not be remembering correctly (un-refreshed wetware), but I thought 
that I remembered from 30+ years ago, that PS/2 drive connector consisted 
of 40? pins, of which the first 34 were standard? drive pinout, plus the 
added pins carried the power.

If that remembraance is close to correct, then the adapter would consist 
of 40 pin connector to 34 plus power.



From mokuba at gmail.com  Sun Jun 30 14:42:23 2019
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 15:42:23 -0400
Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 or compatible floppy drive wanted (Or help with
 current one?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906301223560.25442@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAH5WRh7X-6co1WgC7ihMFE_d-aNo3ez4JLXKvCxmZfEFwrgmcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7vUEVFrQoMUVPvZQpxf4-2abb6WgBhBnLG7dj8JNdd0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudM4hbQfRgZ9_sDNKXAsza10HTahrLk5C6meZF9nm-MWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906301223560.25442@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh6D=AVmWvt8iLTx4Q7fSE8CcXNfoJdJL41_n0BA1z+JvA@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, just so we're all on the same page here.... The drive i'm looking for
seems to be "extra" special.... mine's got a ribbon cable connecting it to
the card edge connector .... same connector as these two pictured drives
but slightly different configuration. Apparently the drives shown are
compatible, however -
https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2009-09-16-broken-ibm-drives.jpg

Mine is like this one -
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Floppy_IBM_PS2_M70_back.JPG

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 3:28 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Jun 2019, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> > I have to check but I think there is a "regular" 3.5 to PS/2 drive
> adapter
> > around, someone selling one?  IIRC the PS/2's need a power line (or two)
> > merged into pin X (?).  It may be worth it to investigate the possibility
> > of buying or making an adapter as these PS/2 drives are becoming hard to
> > find.
>
> I might not be remembering correctly (un-refreshed wetware), but I thought
> that I remembered from 30+ years ago, that PS/2 drive connector consisted
> of 40? pins, of which the first 34 were standard? drive pinout, plus the
> added pins carried the power.
>
> If that remembraance is close to correct, then the adapter would consist
> of 40 pin connector to 34 plus power.
>
>
>

-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Jun 30 19:24:03 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 20:24:03 -0400
Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 or compatible floppy drive wanted (Or help with
 current one?)
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh6D=AVmWvt8iLTx4Q7fSE8CcXNfoJdJL41_n0BA1z+JvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7X-6co1WgC7ihMFE_d-aNo3ez4JLXKvCxmZfEFwrgmcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7vUEVFrQoMUVPvZQpxf4-2abb6WgBhBnLG7dj8JNdd0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudM4hbQfRgZ9_sDNKXAsza10HTahrLk5C6meZF9nm-MWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906301223560.25442@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAH5WRh6D=AVmWvt8iLTx4Q7fSE8CcXNfoJdJL41_n0BA1z+JvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuebamYVLFzrZp2vdSYC+EcD6XtRT-FjzCLxdCJyvg2M=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 3:42 PM Gary Sparkes via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Ah, just so we're all on the same page here.... The drive i'm looking for
> seems to be "extra" special.... mine's got a ribbon cable connecting it to
> the card edge connector .... same connector as these two pictured drives
> but slightly different configuration. Apparently the drives shown are
> compatible, however -
>
> https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2009-09-16-broken-ibm-drives.jpg
>
> Mine is like this one -
>
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Floppy_IBM_PS2_M70_back.JPG


This looks like an adapter has already been installed possibly.
Bill

>
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun 30 20:20:41 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 18:20:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 or compatible floppy drive wanted (Or help
 with current one?)
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuebamYVLFzrZp2vdSYC+EcD6XtRT-FjzCLxdCJyvg2M=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7X-6co1WgC7ihMFE_d-aNo3ez4JLXKvCxmZfEFwrgmcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7vUEVFrQoMUVPvZQpxf4-2abb6WgBhBnLG7dj8JNdd0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudM4hbQfRgZ9_sDNKXAsza10HTahrLk5C6meZF9nm-MWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906301223560.25442@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAH5WRh6D=AVmWvt8iLTx4Q7fSE8CcXNfoJdJL41_n0BA1z+JvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBuebamYVLFzrZp2vdSYC+EcD6XtRT-FjzCLxdCJyvg2M=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1906301800430.25442@shell.lmi.net>


> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 3:42 PM Gary Sparkes via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Ah, just so we're all on the same page here.... The drive i'm looking for
>> seems to be "extra" special.... mine's got a ribbon cable connecting it to
>> the card edge connector .... same connector as these two pictured drives
>> but slightly different configuration. Apparently the drives shown are
>> compatible, however -
>>
>> https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2009-09-16-broken-ibm-drives.jpg
>>
>> Mine is like this one -
>>
>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Floppy_IBM_PS2_M70_back.JPG
On Sun, 30 Jun 2019, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> This looks like an adapter has already been installed possibly.

Yes.
Notice that that is a 40 pin card edge connector.
The "standard" (SA400, etc.) was originally a 34 pin card edge, and later, 
with 3.5" became a 34 pin dual row header.

IF I remember correctly, 34 of those 40 pins correspond to the 34 pin 
"standard" connector, with the other 6 being for power.
Unfortunately, for making adapter cables, MALE card edge connectors for 
cables are no longer readily available.  40 years ago, IDC ones with 
gold plated fingers were available, and there were very cheap 34 pin and 
40 pin entender cables (popular for TRS80 to avoid connect/reconnect 
cycles of the non-gold-plated Expansion Interface connectors)

If you look around, 30 years ago, there were readily available adapters 
with male 34 pin card edge and female 34 pin dual row header, for putting 
the "new" 3.5" drives into machines that had card edge cabling for 5.25".
One of those would work, if you can kludge a power adapter, such as 
cutting off 6 pins from a scrap card edge.

And, of course, in those days, there were commercially available 
after-market adapters for putting "standard" drives into PS/2.


From mokuba at gmail.com  Sun Jun 30 22:19:34 2019
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 23:19:34 -0400
Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 or compatible floppy drive wanted (Or help with
 current one?)
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This is how it shipped from the factory. Note the  fact that the floppy
drive has a ribbon cable instead of a regular FDD connection .... this is,
from every picture i've seen, how they came. I would need another Alps or
similar FDD that has the same ribbon cable connector instead of a standard
FDD connector in order to replace it using the pre-existing bracket.

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 8:24 PM Bill Degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 3:42 PM Gary Sparkes via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Ah, just so we're all on the same page here.... The drive i'm looking for
>> seems to be "extra" special.... mine's got a ribbon cable connecting it to
>> the card edge connector .... same connector as these two pictured drives
>> but slightly different configuration. Apparently the drives shown are
>> compatible, however -
>>
>> https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2009-09-16-broken-ibm-drives.jpg
>>
>> Mine is like this one -
>>
>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Floppy_IBM_PS2_M70_back.JPG
>
>
> This looks like an adapter has already been installed possibly.
> Bill
>
>>
>>

-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG