From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Jan 1 00:48:50 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 06:48:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Happy New Year! References: <798240548.11372631.1546325330060.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <798240548.11372631.1546325330060@mail.yahoo.com> Happy? New? Year? to all! Ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Jan 1 02:24:21 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2019 19:24:21 +1100 Subject: Happy New Year! In-Reply-To: <798240548.11372631.1546325330060@mail.yahoo.com> References: <798240548.11372631.1546325330060.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190101192421.01043c78@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 06:48 AM 1/01/2019 +0000, you wrote: > >Happy?? New?? Year?? to all! >Ed# > >Sent from AOL Mobile Mail So, no new year's resolution about not typing extra spaces after words, Ed? Well maybe next year? Best wishes to all, and hopefully 2019 will bring everyone lots of interesting classic computers (that work!), and fewer 'interesting' political dramas. Guy From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Jan 1 03:16:16 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2019 20:16:16 +1100 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: <50d0bc6b-5384-19a9-1cc6-963984a886a1@bitsavers.org> References: <8093EB7B-F760-47CC-AEE6-44581AD8FA1B@comcast.net> <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232@mail.yahoo.com> <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> <3.0.6.32.20181230113517.011571e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <8093EB7B-F760-47CC-AEE6-44581AD8FA1B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190101201616.01043c78@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 09:44 AM 31/12/2018 -0800, you wrote: > > >On 12/30/18 5:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> It might be helpful to state the policy (or choice, if any) explicitly so people know what to expect. >> > >I will return documents if requested. > >Originals may or may not be donated to CHM for archiving, depending on >if they are duplicative or are of duplicative scope. > >I do not archive any paper myself. > >Currently, I am being asked to reduce my backlog inside of Shustek >and am making some hard choices. Hopefully those hard choices don't involve dumpstering anything? Would they be less hard, if you mentioned here what your storage difficulties involve, and asked if anyone could help with that? Pretty sure you'd find willing helpers. Who love silverfish. Don't be like ManualsPlus: "Oh my gosh we have 300,000 manuals and one week before they have to go to the bin. Err, maybe we should ask for help now." Reading between your lines above, I gather that once you've scanned manuals, if CHM don't want them and the donor didn't ask for their return, they are disposed of? Respectfully, I suggest there are better alternatives. Such as offering them for sale or giveaway. And that you could probably find volunteers to provide all the required work and temporary storage. Btw, the Documation TM200 punch card reader manual I'm seeking and you may have, hasn't turned up at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/documation/ so presumably is still in your backlog. If you happen to see it, that's ONE hard choice I can definitely solve for you. Being on the other side of the globe means I unfortunately can't be much help with bulk material storage. Much as I'd like to. Guy From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Jan 1 03:29:42 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2019 20:29:42 +1100 Subject: On Scanning In-Reply-To: <798240548.11372631.1546325330060@mail.yahoo.com> References: <798240548.11372631.1546325330060.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190101202942.01146960@mail.optusnet.com.au> This may be a good place to mention a text I began writing some while ago: On Scanning. http://everist.org/temp/__On_scanning.htm Meant to be a 'how to' about scanning and post-processing techniques, written as I explored that myself. It's not finished because I was working on a solution to the 'screened images with overlaid sharp text' post-processing problem, when sidetracked. As often happens with me. Also that project diverged into the whole text encoding thing. Which I can't discuss, but I *can* discuss scanning issues. Anyway, any comments, corrections and suggestions for extra material are welcome. Oh, and those with an interest in Apple history may find this amusing: http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm Guy From grif615 at mindspring.com Tue Jan 1 09:03:11 2019 From: grif615 at mindspring.com (Grif) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2019 07:03:11 -0800 Subject: On Scanning Message-ID: On another forum, a JW Early did a lot of magazine scans. ?I'll look to see if I saved any of his descriptions. ?My memory, ?he scanned twice, once for line and text, and again for images. -------- Original message -------- From: Guy Dunphy via cctalk Date: 01/01/2019 01:29 (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: On Scanning This may be a good place to mention a text I began writing some while ago: On Scanning. ? http://everist.org/temp/__On_scanning.htm Meant to be a 'how to' about scanning and post-processing techniques, written as I explored that myself. It's not finished because I was working on a solution to the 'screened images with overlaid sharp text' post-processing problem, when sidetracked. As often happens with me. Also that project diverged into the whole text encoding thing. Which I can't discuss, but I *can* discuss scanning issues. Anyway, any comments, corrections and suggestions for extra material are welcome. Oh, and those with an interest in Apple history may find this amusing: ? http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm Guy Y From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 1 09:05:51 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 07:05:51 -0800 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190101201616.01043c78@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <8093EB7B-F760-47CC-AEE6-44581AD8FA1B@comcast.net> <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232@mail.yahoo.com> <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> <3.0.6.32.20181230113517.011571e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <8093EB7B-F760-47CC-AEE6-44581AD8FA1B@comcast.net> <3.0.6.32.20190101201616.01043c78@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 1/1/19 1:16 AM, Guy Dunphy wrote: > Btw, the Documation TM200 punch card reader manual I'm seeking and you may have, > hasn't turned up at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/documation/ > so presumably is still in your backlog I was mistaken. I only had M200 manuals and every one of those is now on line. From carlojpisani at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 09:58:40 2019 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 16:58:40 +0100 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi on DTB we are designing a RISC-ish CPU, code name "Arise-v2"(1). We are using the MIPS R2K and the RISC-V as the reference. In the end, it will be implemented in HDL -> FPGA. The page on DTB is related to a software emulator (written in C) for the whole system. CPU + RAM + ROM + UART, etc. so we can test and our ISA more comfortably. As a second reference, I'd like to consider the first Motorola RISC: 88K, which is very elegant and neat ISA; unfortunately, I have difficulties at finding user manuals and books about it. If someone wants to sell me a copy, it will be appreciated! Thanks and happy new year! p.s. other interesting contributes about RISC-V and architectures, are on this (2) EEVBlog's topic (1)http://www.downthebunker.xyz/wonderland/reloaded/bazaar/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=194&sid=5294ee174485ac7863eedd496108c996 (2)https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/risc-v-assembly-language-programming-tutorial-on-youtube From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 1 10:03:32 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 11:03:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. Message-ID: <20190101160332.32A0018C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > I do not archive any paper myself. There are quite a few silver-dish lovers; you might be able to raise some funds by listing stuff on eBait (although I can easily see that maybe it would be more hassle than it's worth). > Currently, I am being asked to reduce my backlog inside of Shustek and > am making some hard choices. Can you say anything about this (it sounds troubling)? Can we help in any way? (And the "inside of Shustek" is puzzling - I thought Shustek was a person?) Noel From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Jan 1 10:26:45 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 16:26:45 +0000 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190101162644.GA16161@lonesome.com> Well as it turns out I have several boxes of databooks that I need to get catalogued and listed. (My decluttering task was supposed to be finished *last* year ...) Here we have: MC88100 RISC Microprocessor User's Manual MC88200 Cache/Memory Management Unit User's Manual Please pay shipping from Texas 78746. Whatever else you want to pay on top of that will be used exclusively to buy more high-quality beer :-) mcl From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 1 10:45:10 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 08:45:10 -0800 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68cc96eb-81bd-6285-f587-532d39997470@bitsavers.org> On 1/1/19 7:58 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > hi > As a second reference, I'd like to consider the first Motorola RISC: > 88K, which is very elegant and neat ISA; unfortunately, I have > difficulties at finding user manuals and books about it. > http://bitsavers.org/components/motorola/88000 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 1 10:47:10 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 08:47:10 -0800 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: <20190101160332.32A0018C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190101160332.32A0018C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6d822d2f-ef83-500b-819b-b49958659001@bitsavers.org> On 1/1/19 8:03 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I thought Shustek was a person?) CHM Shustek Center in Fremont, where software and text is stored, and where I have my lab and office. Named for CHM's Chairman (Len Shustek) From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 10:53:15 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 11:53:15 -0500 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190101201616.01043c78@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232@mail.yahoo.com> <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> <3.0.6.32.20181230113517.011571e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <8093EB7B-F760-47CC-AEE6-44581AD8FA1B@comcast.net> <50d0bc6b-5384-19a9-1cc6-963984a886a1@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.32.20190101201616.01043c78@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 1, 2019, 4:16 AM Guy Dunphy via cctalk At 09:44 AM 31/12/2018 -0800, you wrote: > > > > > >On 12/30/18 5:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> It might be helpful to state the policy (or choice, if any) explicitly > so people know what to expect. > >> > > > >I will return documents if requested. > > > >Originals may or may not be donated to CHM for archiving, depending on > >if they are duplicative or are of duplicative scope. > > > >I do not archive any paper myself. > > > >Currently, I am being asked to reduce my backlog inside of Shustek > >and am making some hard choices. > > > Hopefully those hard choices don't involve dumpstering anything? > > Would they be less hard, if you mentioned here what your storage > difficulties > involve, and asked if anyone could help with that? Pretty sure you'd find > willing helpers. Who love silverfish. > Don't be like ManualsPlus: "Oh my gosh we have 300,000 manuals and one week > before they have to go to the bin. Err, maybe we should ask for help now." > > > Reading between your lines above, I gather that once you've scanned > manuals, > if CHM don't want them and the donor didn't ask for their return, they are > disposed of? > > Respectfully, I suggest there are better alternatives. Such as offering > them for > sale or giveaway. And that you could probably find volunteers to provide > all > the required work and temporary storage. > > > > > > Guy > I have a lot of ACM SIGPLAN Notice, event proceedings and "Communications" in my document library. Also some DECUS proceedings. Not too much from the IEEE. There is an older website registry of computer preservation hobbyists out there, listed by interest and location but I don't it's actively managed. It could be assumed to include document preservation for thise looking for a home for their docs. This site has been around since 90's but has been updated a few times since launch http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/ccrs_list.html Someone should probably mirror this page or even take it over. Another possibility ... On the bitsavers website it might be nice to add a section where people can see what docs are available for pick up/rescue opportunities. Personally I limit my doc storage to what I can store in proper conditions. No silverfish. I will even bathe moldy docs under florescent light as needed, to help control mold. Too much light hurts the paper so only what is needed to restabilize. Personally I am looking for ComputerWorld newspapers from the 60's and early 70's, People's Computer Company newspapers, and early SIG club docs... should anyone be looking for a home for these. Bill > From carlojpisani at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 11:13:21 2019 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 18:13:21 +0100 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: <68cc96eb-81bd-6285-f587-532d39997470@bitsavers.org> References: <68cc96eb-81bd-6285-f587-532d39997470@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: yes, but I prefer a printed copy Il giorno mar 1 gen 2019 alle ore 18:08 Al Kossow via cctalk ha scritto: > > > > On 1/1/19 7:58 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > > hi > > > As a second reference, I'd like to consider the first Motorola RISC: > > 88K, which is very elegant and neat ISA; unfortunately, I have > > difficulties at finding user manuals and books about it. > > > http://bitsavers.org/components/motorola/88000 > From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 11:29:39 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 09:29:39 -0800 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: References: <68cc96eb-81bd-6285-f587-532d39997470@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: There are these things called "printers." - Josh On 1/1/2019 9:13 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > yes, but I prefer a printed copy > > Il giorno mar 1 gen 2019 alle ore 18:08 Al Kossow via cctalk > ha scritto: >> >> >> On 1/1/19 7:58 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: >>> hi >>> As a second reference, I'd like to consider the first Motorola RISC: >>> 88K, which is very elegant and neat ISA; unfortunately, I have >>> difficulties at finding user manuals and books about it. >>> >> http://bitsavers.org/components/motorola/88000 >> From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 11:30:55 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 09:30:55 -0800 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: References: <68cc96eb-81bd-6285-f587-532d39997470@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <43fb5004-d1bc-063f-cc59-521402ffda45@gmail.com> There are these things called "printers." - Josh On 1/1/2019 9:13 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > yes, but I prefer a printed copy > > Il giorno mar 1 gen 2019 alle ore 18:08 Al Kossow via cctalk > ha scritto: >> >> >> On 1/1/19 7:58 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: >>> hi >>> As a second reference, I'd like to consider the first Motorola RISC: >>> 88K, which is very elegant and neat ISA; unfortunately, I have >>> difficulties at finding user manuals and books about it. >>> >> http://bitsavers.org/components/motorola/88000 >> From carlojpisani at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 11:42:55 2019 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 18:42:55 +0100 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: <43fb5004-d1bc-063f-cc59-521402ffda45@gmail.com> References: <68cc96eb-81bd-6285-f587-532d39997470@bitsavers.org> <43fb5004-d1bc-063f-cc59-521402ffda45@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am looking for original printed copy Il giorno mar 1 gen 2019 alle ore 18:31 Josh Dersch via cctalk ha scritto: > > There are these things called "printers." > > - Josh > > On 1/1/2019 9:13 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > > yes, but I prefer a printed copy > > > > Il giorno mar 1 gen 2019 alle ore 18:08 Al Kossow via cctalk > > ha scritto: > >> > >> > >> On 1/1/19 7:58 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > >>> hi > >>> As a second reference, I'd like to consider the first Motorola RISC: > >>> 88K, which is very elegant and neat ISA; unfortunately, I have > >>> difficulties at finding user manuals and books about it. > >>> > >> http://bitsavers.org/components/motorola/88000 > >> From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 1 12:01:22 2019 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 10:01:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: On Scanning In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190101202942.01146960@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <798240548.11372631.1546325330060.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.6.32.20190101202942.01146960@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jan 2019, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > This may be a good place to mention a text I began writing some while ago: > > On Scanning. > http://everist.org/temp/__On_scanning.htm > > Meant to be a 'how to' about scanning and post-processing techniques, written as I > explored that myself. It's not finished because I was working on a solution to the > 'screened images with overlaid sharp text' post-processing problem, when sidetracked. > As often happens with me. Also that project diverged into the whole text encoding > thing. Which I can't discuss, but I *can* discuss scanning issues. > > Anyway, any comments, corrections and suggestions for extra material are welcome. > Here's a video on a diy book scanner I built in order to scan all the Crescent Software documentation I got. Seems relevant to this. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niwLAbgRpDE (Crescent Software archive is here: http://annex.retroarchive.org/crescent) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 1 12:08:05 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 10:08:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: <43fb5004-d1bc-063f-cc59-521402ffda45@gmail.com> References: <68cc96eb-81bd-6285-f587-532d39997470@bitsavers.org> <43fb5004-d1bc-063f-cc59-521402ffda45@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jan 2019, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > There are these things called "printers." A lot of them are getting on in years and getting kinda cranky. There has been a decline in their business due to copy machines for small to medium volume, and overseas competition. But some of them would gladly help newcomers learn how to operate a press. Oh. Maybe you meant computer printers. There are little ones, such as the Centronics 101 (RS232, or a parallel data interface using a 36 pin Blue-ribbon connector), that will fit on a sturdy table. Recommend the 101A; 9x7 matrix is nicer than 5x7 http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/centronics/37400020G_Centronics_Model_101A_Printer_Technical_Manual_Dec1974.pdf Some of the new fancy computer printers even have lower case! Although excruciatingly slow (14.8 CPS, and do NOT exceed that!), the I/O Selectric is versatile. In many offices, newbies will be welcomed by somebody putting in the APL typeball. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jan 1 12:24:22 2019 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 13:24:22 -0500 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: References: <68cc96eb-81bd-6285-f587-532d39997470@bitsavers.org> <43fb5004-d1bc-063f-cc59-521402ffda45@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2019-01-01 1:08 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 1 Jan 2019, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >> There are these things called "printers." > > A lot of them are getting on in years and getting kinda cranky. Speaking of which, it's a new year, can we not prolong this thread into a 100 post monster. Book was requested, book was offered, all poster's options are covered, surely, by now. --T From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 1 12:27:09 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 10:27:09 -0800 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: References: <68cc96eb-81bd-6285-f587-532d39997470@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Any chance of getting the list to add 'monthly digest' format? 12 doses of this a year would be about right. On 1/1/19 9:13 AM, Carlo Pissant wrote: > yes, but I prefer a printed copy > >> I have difficulties at finding user manuals and books about it. >>> >> http://bitsavers.org/components/motorola/88000 >> From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Jan 1 12:28:16 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 18:28:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: On Scanning References: <1840021690.11500178.1546367296270.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1840021690.11500178.1546367296270@mail.yahoo.com> Very nice book scanner!There is? probably?a? second? career?? ?out there? for? you if? you? chose to? make them!Ed# In a message dated 1/1/2019 11:01:31 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On Tue, 1 Jan 2019, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > This may be a good place to mention a text I began writing some while ago: > > On Scanning. >? http://everist.org/temp/__On_scanning.htm > > Meant to be a 'how to' about scanning and post-processing techniques, written as I > explored that myself. It's not finished because I was working on a solution to the > 'screened images with overlaid sharp text' post-processing problem, when sidetracked. > As often happens with me. Also that project diverged into the whole text encoding > thing. Which I can't discuss, but I *can* discuss scanning issues. > > Anyway, any comments, corrections and suggestions for extra material are welcome. > Here's a video on a diy book scanner I built in order to scan all the Crescent Software documentation I got.? Seems relevant to this. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niwLAbgRpDE (Crescent Software archive is here: http://annex.retroarchive.org/crescent) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby.? Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 15:17:50 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 15:17:50 -0600 Subject: music dec tapes? (paper) Message-ID: anyone seen these music tapes before i grabed this trays for the oddnes of the content of these tapes? also apears to have the software to play them? https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Lot-of-15-digital-decus-Paper-Tapes-w-Case/273628629483?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Lot-of-8-digital-decus-Paper-Tapes-w-Case/273628539210?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 would this be some weird synthy type thing? control points for the sound boaerd used for automation on some fancy desk? or somthing els? From kylevowen at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 15:47:25 2019 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 15:47:25 -0600 Subject: music dec tapes? (paper) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 1, 2019, 15:18 Adrian Stoness via cctalk anyone seen these music tapes before i grabed this trays for the oddnes of > the content of these tapes? also apears to have the software to play them? > > > https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Lot-of-15-digital-decus-Paper-Tapes-w-Case/273628629483?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 > > > https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Lot-of-8-digital-decus-Paper-Tapes-w-Case/273628539210?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 > > would this be some weird synthy type thing? > control points for the sound boaerd used for automation on some fancy desk? > or somthing els? > Vince has a listing for some version of DECUS 8-152 on his website ( http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/pdp8/src/decus/8-152/decus-8-152-lst.pdf). I have reverse engineered it enough to have his version play a few songs. However, it seems like there's a difference between the music tapes I have and the listing he has. I don't know what hardware was required of this software, but I suspect it to be a DAC responding on address 055. This seems to match with an AA01 option. Did you end up buying these tapes? I have digitized the music tapes I bought from the seller and will post them soon. It would be excellent if the buyer of this lot would do the same. Musically, Kyle > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 1 16:00:54 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 15:00:54 -0700 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d306d88-4256-c777-5482-dc80733a9eac@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/1/2019 8:58 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > hi > on DTB we are designing a RISC-ish CPU, code name "Arise-v2"(1). > We are using the MIPS R2K and the RISC-V as the reference. > > In the end, it will be implemented in HDL -> FPGA. > > The page on DTB is related to a software emulator (written in C) for > the whole system. CPU + RAM + ROM + UART, etc. so we can test and our > ISA more comfortably. > > As a second reference, I'd like to consider the first Motorola RISC: > 88K, which is very elegant and neat ISA; unfortunately, I have > difficulties at finding user manuals and books about it. > > If someone wants to sell me a copy, it will be appreciated! > > Thanks and happy new year! I was never a fan of RISC architecture as does not fit the standard high level language model. Everybody wants a 1 pass compiler, thus the RISC model. If you are doing your own RISC model, you might consider a model that supports Effective addressing better since we have got the point where fetching the data is taking longer than processing it. The other thought is the pipeline seems has too high speed of a clock, what is the use a fast clock, if you got one or two gates of logic between your clocks. Gate and line driving speed ratios remind me of the Vacuum tube era of computing. I have FPGA card here, as using it to develop a NICE 20 bit TTL computer.I just ordered a few 7437's from the Ukraine, so this might be the last year to stock up needed 74XXX spares. Good luck with your design. Ben. From carlojpisani at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 16:35:04 2019 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 23:35:04 +0100 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: <7d306d88-4256-c777-5482-dc80733a9eac@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <7d306d88-4256-c777-5482-dc80733a9eac@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > I was never a fan of RISC architecture as does not fit the standard high > level language model. Everybody wants a 1 pass compiler, thus the RISC > model. If you are doing your own RISC model, you might consider a model > that supports Effective addressing better since we have got the point > where fetching the data is taking longer than processing it. yup. I am a 68k programmer so I know what you mean. the 68k is more comfortable to be programmed in assembly, and even the EA modes (especially in the 68020 and CPU32) help a lot. unfortunately, the 68K is very complex to be designed, and the first 68020 used microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs. Arise-v2 comes doesn't have auto incrementer/post decrementer (aka push pop and like), the EA model is basically minimalistic, but we have a special instruction called "SLAC" which is extremely useful for accessing a matrix's cell SLAC means shift left and accumulate in a matrix, a cell is usually accessed by a similar construct, so we have EA = slac .... load/store EA ... yes, our demos will use a lot of matrices and convergences. Just for fun. > The other thought is the pipeline seems has too high speed of a clock, > what is the use a fast clock, if you got one or two gates of logic For sure Arise-v2 will be implemented on a Spartan6 board clocked at 50Mhz for the core and 99Mhz for the DRAM controller, and won't use the pipeline: it will be a multicycles not-pipelined CPU. This because the pipeline introduces a lot of hazards that need to be solved, and this will be our "phase two". First, we need to design and test the ISA on a software simulator in order to check if it's coherent, then, once the ISA is stable, we will put it into a simple hardware implementation, and at that point, we will be able to design a branch prediction etc. Arise is a "learning toy", anyway. All the serious job is done on the RISC-V. On DTB we have a list of RISC-V boards for all the tastes and different costs: ... RISC-V on ASIC chip, RISC-V on FPGA, etc ... (1) http://www.downthebunker.xyz/wonderland/reloaded/bazaar/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=192&sid=412586cc3d070058ee904a71aceb9e76 We will try to keep the list updated. Probably someone on our team will also buy a RISC-V board. Currently, we are all working on simulators. > Good luck with your design. thanks! From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 1 16:36:43 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 14:36:43 -0800 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: <7d306d88-4256-c777-5482-dc80733a9eac@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <7d306d88-4256-c777-5482-dc80733a9eac@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <35134717-AF82-4CF5-8E2C-E942D27F150D@shiresoft.com> > On Jan 1, 2019, at 2:00 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/1/2019 8:58 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: >> hi >> on DTB we are designing a RISC-ish CPU, code name "Arise-v2"(1). >> We are using the MIPS R2K and the RISC-V as the reference. >> In the end, it will be implemented in HDL -> FPGA. >> The page on DTB is related to a software emulator (written in C) for >> the whole system. CPU + RAM + ROM + UART, etc. so we can test and our >> ISA more comfortably. >> As a second reference, I'd like to consider the first Motorola RISC: >> 88K, which is very elegant and neat ISA; unfortunately, I have >> difficulties at finding user manuals and books about it. >> If someone wants to sell me a copy, it will be appreciated! >> Thanks and happy new year! > > I was never a fan of RISC architecture as does not fit the standard high level language model. Everybody wants a 1 pass compiler, thus the RISC model. If you are doing your own RISC model, you might consider a model > that supports Effective addressing better since we have got the point > where fetching the data is taking longer than processing it. Huh? I don?t understand the 1 pass compiler statement requiring RISC. I was doing 1 pass compilers in the mid-to-late 70?s (well before RISC). So I?m not sure what you?re talking about. It also depends upon what you mean by ?1 pass?. Most compilers nowadays make only one pass over the source but will make multiple passes over the intermediate form before finally generating code (even then it may make another pass over the resulting generated code for peep-hole optimizations. RISC is actually nice for a compiler because it?s simple and fairly regular (hard to actually generate code automatically for complex instructions) and RISC has a large number of registers. However, modern CPUs are all out-of-order execution with register renaming with ridiculous numbers of registers (I think current Intel Core x CPUs have 192+ registers for register renaming where the visible number of registers is 8). It also allows for speculative execution (following multiple paths through the code until the data required for the various decision points is finally available). > > The other thought is the pipeline seems has too high speed of a clock, > what is the use a fast clock, if you got one or two gates of logic between your clocks. Gate and line driving speed ratios remind me of the Vacuum tube era of computing. Deep pipelines are needed to get clock speeds up so that timing can be met. The problem with deep pipelines is that when any sort of exception (interrupts, etc) happen, there?s a lot of state that gets flushed and then restarted when the exception handling completes. Pipelines (especially if they?re not fixed depth for all operations) means that simple operations (those that require a minimum number of pipeline stages) can be completed quickly where as complex operations that require either a lot of logic or time to complete can be broken up in to multiple stages. This allows a higher clock rate and allows for the simple operations to be completed more quickly than if there was a very shallow pipeline. TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 1 16:40:14 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 14:40:14 -0800 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: References: <7d306d88-4256-c777-5482-dc80733a9eac@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On Jan 1, 2019, at 2:35 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > >> I was never a fan of RISC architecture as does not fit the standard high >> level language model. Everybody wants a 1 pass compiler, thus the RISC >> model. If you are doing your own RISC model, you might consider a model >> that supports Effective addressing better since we have got the point >> where fetching the data is taking longer than processing it. > > yup. I am a 68k programmer so I know what you mean. > the 68k is more comfortable to be programmed in assembly, and even the > EA modes (especially in the 68020 and CPU32) help a lot. > > unfortunately, the 68K is very complex to be designed, and the first > 68020 used microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs. Umm. Says who? Intel x86 CPUs makes *heavy* use of microcode. So do a number of other processors (IBM S/370, et al). The ISAs may be old but I would argue that in both examples, the underlying designs are *very* modern. TTFN - Guy From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Jan 1 17:33:27 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 15:33:27 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Dec 31, 2018, at 8:43 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > In the RKDS: bit 7 has changed the definition slightly ("Drive Ready" to > "R/W/S Ready"), but seems to be basically the same. In the RKCS, bit 9 is > "Read/Write All" in the -C, and unused in the -D; bit 12 is "Maint" in the > -C, unused in the -D. Thanks for digging that out, Noel. I didn?t know that the RK11-D didn?t have ?all? mode ? its actually pretty handy for recovering slightly corrupted sectors. Also, the older RK11 static MAINDEC actually does quite a lot with maintenance mode, without needing a working drive attached. I suppose that test coverage is lost with the RK11-D? --FritzM. From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 17:57:55 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 18:57:55 -0500 Subject: music dec tapes? (paper) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have these, plays music over the radio b On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 4:18 PM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > anyone seen these music tapes before i grabed this trays for the oddnes of > the content of these tapes? also apears to have the software to play them? > > > https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Lot-of-15-digital-decus-Paper-Tapes-w-Case/273628629483?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 > > > https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Lot-of-8-digital-decus-Paper-Tapes-w-Case/273628539210?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 > > would this be some weird synthy type thing? > control points for the sound boaerd used for automation on some fancy desk? > or somthing els? > From kylevowen at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 18:36:10 2019 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 18:36:10 -0600 Subject: music dec tapes? (paper) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 1, 2019, 18:23 Bill Degnan via cctalk I have these, plays music over the radio > b > Bill, which of these tapes do you have exactly? I've checked and it would appear DECUS 8-152 is not intended to play over the radio, but rather with a DAC (or two). I'm still working on fully understanding it, but that's my conclusion thus far. Thanks, Kyle > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 1 19:10:51 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 20:10:51 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7776B53D-1022-422E-84C1-236939778505@comcast.net> > On Dec 31, 2018, at 11:43 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >>> On Dec 31, 2018, at 6:32 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: >>> ... >>> There are one or two bits in a register of the RK11 that have a >>> different meaning/function, depending on the controller being a -C or >>> -D. > >> If someone can point me to the description of the differences I should >> be able to say what RSTS will do with them. > > AFAIK, the only difference (in programming terms) between the -C and -D is > that the -D has dropped the maintainance register. > > Although I cheerfully admit I haven't sat down with -C and -D manuals and > done a bit-by-bit compare. I just did that (I used the "RK11-C Moving Head > Disk Drive Controller Manual", DEC-11-HRKA-D, and the 1976 "Peripherals > Handbook"), and found in the following: > > In the RKDS: bit 7 has changed the definition slightly ("Drive Ready" to > "R/W/S Ready"), but seems to be basically the same. You mean bit 6? Bit 7 is "drive ready" in both. I'm using the 1972 peripherals handbook for the RK11-C. Bit 6 has a different name in the two descriptions but the meaning appears to be the same. It would be interesting to see the output from "hardware list" in INIT. On overlapped seek: that is only ever useful if you have more than one drive, and then only if there is enough load on the drives to keep more than one head moving at a given time. The INIT drivers are the plain (not overlapped seek) ones so if that works it is worth trying the plain drivers in RSTS as well to see if that cures the issue. I'm still not sure why things break, though. You could load monitor ODT (ODT option in the memory layout settings in DEFAULT) and set a breakpoint at LOG$DK, that's the error logging entry point of the driver. Then you could display the RK11 CSRs and we can see if we can figure out why it's unhappy. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 1 20:43:30 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 21:43:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190102024330.A1D5618C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning >> I haven't sat down with -C and -D manuals and done a bit-by-bit >> compare. I just did that (I used the "RK11-C Moving Head Disk Drive >> Controller Manual", DEC-11-HRKA-D, and the 1976 "Peripherals Handbook"), >> and found in the following: >> In the RKDS: bit 7 has changed the definition slightly ("Drive Ready" >> to "R/W/S Ready"), but seems to be basically the same. > You mean bit 6? Bit 7 is "drive ready" in both. @*#$@*$%@&*!!!!! My silverfishionado nature screwed me! I didn't have an RK11-D manual in paper, so I relied on the "Peripherals Handbook" - and it's got an error! In both the 1975 and 1976 edition, the _diagram_ for the RKDS shows bit 7 as "R/W/S Ready", and bit 6 as "Access ready", but the _table_ shows bit 7 as "Drive Ready", and bit 6 as "R/W/S Ready"! OK, so let me ditch that, since it's self-contradictory, and thefore necessarily erroneous. I'll switch to the RK11-D User's Manual, EK-RK11D-OP-001. It gives bit 7 as "Drive Ready", and bit 6 as "R/W/S Ready". (The RK11-C manual gave bit 7 as "Drive Ready", and bit 6 as "Access Ready".) > Bit 6 has a different name in the two descriptions but the meaning > appears to be the same. Yup. Thanks for catching that for me! Noel From jim.manley at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 21:17:18 2019 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 20:17:18 -0700 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: <35134717-AF82-4CF5-8E2C-E942D27F150D@shiresoft.com> References: <7d306d88-4256-c777-5482-dc80733a9eac@jetnet.ab.ca> <35134717-AF82-4CF5-8E2C-E942D27F150D@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: RISC was never just about compiler and hardware simplification for improved performance of the most frequently-executed instructions. It's also been front-and-center in low-power (e.g., mobile) and embedded (now including Internet of Things) applications, which each far outpace the number of devices produced for traditional desktop and top-end computing (high-performance computing, originally aka supercomputers). It's a big reason why no one is using Windows Phones, or IoT components based on x86/x64 hardware today. Microsoft and Intel made big bets on their accumulated legacy code and hardware bases being shoehorned into everything imaginable, with what should have been obviously poor results for most of the application areas pursued. Anyone remember trying to run Excel on a Windows Phone with largely the same mess of menus, submenus, subsubmenu items, dialogues, etc., as on the desktop version? IoT devices like door locks don't need scads of registers, instructions, caches, etc., and can you imagine an Apple or Galaxy Watch with cell capability running on a multicore x64 processor with a battery smaller than that for a vehicle? A Blue Screen of Death is truly fatal for a product that depends on an embedded device, like an ATM in the middle of dispensing over half a grand in cash, a DVR in a satellite TV receiver that requires upwards of ten minutes to restart and get back to where the viewer was (minus the permanently lost live recorded cache), or a self-driving vehicle at any speed above zero. Yes, BSoDs continue to happen when memory runs out before users run out of things they want to do all at one time. Windows systems can still routinely get to the point where it becomes impossible to dismiss a modal dialog, close a tab or window, bring up the Start menu or Task Manager, or other critical user interface element actions that should always be instantly accessible. This lack of attention to user experience is endemic to the Wintel way of doing things, going back deep in the estimated ~100 million lines in their code base. The x86/x64 instruction set complexity hasn't been helpful in reducing the security vulnerability of software running on those architectures, either. The multiple parallel pipelines that make possible speculative execution of a number of branches before associated decisions are computed, have resulted in the whole new class of security vulnerabilities such as Meltdown, Foreshadow, and Spectre. This isn't limited to x86/x64, however, as the most recent multicore ARM processors have also fallen victim to such issues, they've just been late to the game as the most advanced (and complex) features have been pursued (somewhat for me-too marketing purposes), so fewer families/generations have been affected. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 21:48:17 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 19:48:17 -0800 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: References: <7d306d88-4256-c777-5482-dc80733a9eac@jetnet.ab.ca> <35134717-AF82-4CF5-8E2C-E942D27F150D@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:18 PM Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > RISC was never just about compiler and hardware simplification for improved > performance of the most frequently-executed instructions. It's also been > front-and-center in low-power (e.g., mobile) and embedded (now including > Internet of Things) applications, which each far outpace the number of > devices produced for traditional desktop and top-end computing > (high-performance computing, originally aka supercomputers). It's a big > reason why no one is using Windows Phones, or IoT components based on > x86/x64 hardware today. > Windows Phones were almost entirely (if not completely) based on MIPS and ARM processors. > > Microsoft and Intel made big bets on their accumulated legacy code and > hardware bases being shoehorned into everything imaginable, with what > should have been obviously poor results for most of the application areas > pursued. OK... what does this have to do with RISC? > Anyone remember trying to run Excel on a Windows Phone with > largely the same mess of menus, submenus, subsubmenu items, dialogues, > etc., as on the desktop version? Yep. That sure was a thing that existed. > IoT devices like door locks don't need > scads of registers, instructions, caches, etc., and can you imagine an > Apple or Galaxy Watch with cell capability running on a multicore x64 > processor with a battery smaller than that for a vehicle? > So should I be running Excel on an IoT door lock, then? I'm confused. Were we talking about RISC? > > A Blue Screen of Death is truly fatal for a product that depends on an > embedded device, like an ATM in the middle of dispensing over half a grand > in cash, a DVR in a satellite TV receiver that requires upwards of ten > minutes to restart and get back to where the viewer was (minus the > permanently lost live recorded cache), or a self-driving vehicle at any > speed above zero. Yes, BSoDs continue to happen when memory runs out > before users run out of things they want to do all at one time. Windows > systems can still routinely get to the point where it becomes impossible to > dismiss a modal dialog, close a tab or window, bring up the Start menu or > Task Manager, or other critical user interface element actions that should > always be instantly accessible. This lack of attention to user experience > is endemic to the Wintel way of doing things, going back deep in the > estimated ~100 million lines in their code base. > Good thing RISC solves all of these... uh, problems, then. You should probably send this mail to Microsoft so they can change their ways. > > The x86/x64 instruction set complexity hasn't been helpful in reducing the > security vulnerability of software running on those architectures, either. > The multiple parallel pipelines that make possible speculative execution of > a number of branches before associated decisions are computed, have > resulted in the whole new class of security vulnerabilities such as > Meltdown, Foreshadow, and Spectre. This isn't limited to x86/x64, however, > as the most recent multicore ARM processors have also fallen victim to such > issues, they've just been late to the game as the most advanced (and > complex) features have been pursued (somewhat for me-too marketing > purposes), so fewer families/generations have been affected. > Yes, as you say this is in no way a problem specific to any given architecture, it's endemic across many processor implementations that involve speculative execution. What exactly is your point? - Josh From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 1 22:10:50 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 20:10:50 -0800 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: References: <7d306d88-4256-c777-5482-dc80733a9eac@jetnet.ab.ca> <35134717-AF82-4CF5-8E2C-E942D27F150D@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 1/1/19 7:17 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > RISC was never just about compiler and hardware simplification for improved > performance of the most frequently-executed instructions. John Cocke is rolling over in his grave. From carlojpisani at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 02:19:51 2019 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 09:19:51 +0100 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: References: <7d306d88-4256-c777-5482-dc80733a9eac@jetnet.ab.ca> <35134717-AF82-4CF5-8E2C-E942D27F150D@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > The x86/x64 instruction set complexity hasn't been helpful in reducing the > security vulnerability of software running on those architectures, either. > The multiple parallel pipelines that make possible speculative execution of > a number of branches before associated decisions are computed, have > resulted in the whole new class of security vulnerabilities such as > Meltdown, Foreshadow, and Spectre. This isn't limited to x86/x64, however, > as the most recent multicore ARM processors have also fallen victim to such > issues, they've just been late to the game as the most advanced (and > complex) features have been pursued (somewhat for me-too marketing > purposes), so fewer families/generations have been affected. yes, it's a problem even for the IBM POWER9 (~PPC64/LE) partially funded by DARPA here (1) Elisabeth reported a post that summarizes what is wrong with Spectre (1) http://www.downthebunker.xyz/wonderland/reloaded/bazaar/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=189&sid=ae795d270e4805375cea3d9832eecc27 From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 02:31:02 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 03:31:02 -0500 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs Message-ID: <014d01d4a275$7f1ff0a0$7d5fd1e0$@gmail.com> >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Carlo Pisani via cctalk >Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2019 5:35 PM >To: ben; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) > >> I was never a fan of RISC architecture as does not fit the standard high >> level language model. Everybody wants a 1 pass compiler, thus the RISC >> model. If you are doing your own RISC model, you might consider a model >> that supports Effective addressing better since we have got the point >> where fetching the data is taking longer than processing it. > >yup. I am a 68k programmer so I know what you mean. >the 68k is more comfortable to be programmed in assembly, and even the >EA modes (especially in the 68020 and CPU32) help a lot. > >unfortunately, the 68K is very complex to be designed, and the first >68020 used microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs. > >... I'm curious as to why you make this claim that microcode is no-go in "modern" designs. Could you please elaborate on this point? I don't see why the alternative random control logic would be a better proposition. Thanks, paul From ldkraemer at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 10:06:27 2019 From: ldkraemer at gmail.com (Larry Kraemer) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 10:06:27 -0600 Subject: OCR old software listing Message-ID: The only way I've been able to get any type of readable ASCII TEXT from the .tif's is to do the following for each tif: convert -density 1200 -resize 40% xaaa.tif -density 1 xaaa120040.tif Then, OCR it with Irfanview with the KADMOS Plugin Installed. For the first Page I get the following ASCII: CHAR 000000RG CHCR 000216R CHlF 000224R CHRTAB = ****** G CHSPC 000232R CH05 000014R CH1 000024R CH15 000062R CH2 000070R - CH23 000110R CH24 000134R CH25 000140R CH26 000144R CH3 000150R CH4 000164R _~__~___~_____~ CH5 080212R CR = 000015 CTLP = 000020 )DAC0 = ****** G DACl = ****** G DAC2 = ****** G DUM = 000000 INC 000240R INC6 000242R INC8 080244R LF = 000012 PC =%000007 R0 =%000000 R1 =%000001 R2 =%000002 R3 ~%000003 R4 =%000004 R5 =%000~~5 ~___~~___~~ R6 =%000006 R7 =%000007 SP =%000006 SPACE = 000048 . = 000246R END ? ;***************************************************** ,. ... , . . ; ; CHARACTER DISPLAY ~ VERSION 3C ; ; NOV 15,1974 ,; _~~._ ~ ; R0=PTR TO BUFFER OF CHARS-FIRST WORD #OF B~TES ; R1=BIT TEST ROTATING MASK ~ R2=CHARACTER INCERMENT-DETERMINES CHARACTER SIZE ; R3=POINTER AT CHAR DOT DATA . ; R4=X POSITION OF FIRST CHAR ; R5=Y POSlTlON OF FTRST CHAR ; 000000 ~ R0=%0 000001 R1=%1 000002 R2=%2 ? 000003 R3=%3 080004 R4=%4 000005 R5=%5 000006 R6=%6 000007 R7=%7 000007 PC=R7 000006 SP=R6 000020 CTLP=20 000040 SPACE=40 000015 CR=15 000012 LF=12 ' 000000 DUM=0 .TITLE .CHAR .GLOBL CHAR,DAC0,DAC1,0AC2,CHRTAB 000000 .CSECT , 000000 012046 CHRR: MO~ (R0)+,-(SP) ;GET CHAR COUNT 000002 016702 MOV INC,R2 ~SET CHARACTER SIZE 000232 000006 012737~ MOV #-2048 .~#OAC2 ;TURN DOT OFF JUST IN CASE 1740~0 000000 000014 005316 CH05: DEC (SP> ;IS THERE MORE CHARS? 000016 002002 BGE CH1 ;~ES-GO DRAW THEM 000820 005726 TST (SP)+ ;NO-POP OLD CTR 000022 000207 RTS PC ;RLL DONE!!!!!~!!~!!!!!1~!!!!11! 000024 112AA7 CW?l? MnWR (P0~~...P-e? .nrT r?uc,o It's no where near 50% accurate, but it's the best I've got so far. Page 2 is: \ ~~~~1~ 000042 001470 BEQ CHLF ;YES-GO LF --- ---~ 000044 122703 CMPB #SPACE,R3 ;NO-IS THIS A SPACE? 000040 000850 001470 BEQ CHSPC ;~ES-GO SPACE 000052 003003 BGT 0H15 ;NO-IF LESS THAN.SRAC~-B~~-~*RR PAGE 001. 000054 122703 CMPB #137~R3 ;IS IT GREAYER TH8N-1~~2~ ----- 000137 000060 002003 BGE CH2 ;NO-GOOD CHAR~ ~--~~-~---~-----? 000062 012703~CH15: MOV #CHRTAB,R3 ~YES-BAD CHAR 0001300 , ? 000066 000410 BR CH23 000070 162703 CH2: SUB #37,R3 ;ZERO FOR FIRST CHAR IN~TABLE 000037 0000~ 010301 MOV R3,Rl ~SAVE VALE TEMP ~--~--~~----- 000076 006303 ASL R3 ;R3=R3*2 000100 060103 ADD R1~R3 ;R3=R3*3 - 000102 006303 ASL R3 ;R3=R3*6 (FOR 3 WORDS) 0801~ 062703~ ADD #CHRTAB,R3 ~~ P~ AT FIR~ CHAR~~ATR ~~~E 000000 000110 012701 CH23? MnV #20A,R1 ~SET TEST BIT -~-~--~-_~-~ 000200 000114 010546 MOV R5,-(SP> ;SAVE lNITIAL ~ POSIT~ON 000116 010467 MO~ R4,CH24+2 ;SA~E INITIAL X 80001.4 ? 00~122 010367 MOV R3,CH25+2 ;SAVE INITIAL CHAR PTR 08881 4 ??,..___ ,.~ ~.,,~,_,,__?,., 000126 005137~ COM @#DAC2 ;TURN DOT ON INTO CHAR 008008 ~ 000132 000404 BR CH26 ;SKIP 000134 012704 CH24: MOV #DUM,R4 ;RESET PTR 000000 0AA14A A127A~ CH25: MOV #DU~ R~ ;RESET X 000000 008144 012780 CH26: MOV #6,R0 ;SET B~TE CTR ' 000006 000150 130123 CH3: BITB Rl,(R3)+ ~IS THE BIT ON? 000152 001404 BEQ CH4 ;NO-DONT MOVE IN DACS 000154 010437' MnV R4,~#OAC0 ~MO~ X ~ --~- ~ 000000 ~ 000160 010537~ MO~ R5,@#DAC1 ;MOVE Y ~__-___ - --- 000000 000164 060204 CH4: ADD R2~R4 ;INCREMENT X 000166 005300 DEC R0 ;DONE ALL THE B~TES? _ 000170 003367 BGT CH~ ;NO-SO FINISH -~~ 000172 160205 SUB R2,R5 ;'DECREMENT y 000174 000241 ' CLC 000176 106001 RORB R1 ;MOVE TEST BIT DOWN ONE ? 000200 001355 BNE CH24 ~IF NOT ZERO DRAW NEXT ROW 000202 060204 ADD R2,R4 ;ZERO-SETUP FOR NEXT CHAR 000284 8126A5 MOV (SP~+,R5 ~REP~ACE INITIRL Y 000206 005137~ COM @#DAC2 ;TURN DOT OFF OUT OF CHAR 000008 000212 012600 CH5: MOV (SP)+,R0 ;REPLACE PTR 000214 000677 BR CH05 ;GO TO IT AGRIN 000216 012704 CHCR: MOV #-2048.,R4 ;RESET X TO FAR LEFT 174000 l~3~~~2 ~~~77~ ~~ ~u~ .,_~~ I don't know if it's even worth it to continue. Some of the page are so dark that they don't scan at all. The best ones aren't anything to brag about. Ideas? Suggestions? Thanks. Larry From steven at malikoff.com Wed Jan 2 06:22:17 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 22:22:17 +1000 Subject: OCR old software listing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6656f909859b50872eaf59ded71106a8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> I timed myself how long it would take to clean up Mattis' supplied image so it might be able to be OCR'd more accurately. Using Paint.NET it took me 23 minutes to get to the following: http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/dvY973s_cleaned.png There are still a few little bits I missed, but happy to see if it reads better. If the complete set are now up then I must have missed it. Steve. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 2 08:35:18 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 09:35:18 -0500 Subject: Motorola M88K books & user manuals (looking for) In-Reply-To: References: <7d306d88-4256-c777-5482-dc80733a9eac@jetnet.ab.ca> <35134717-AF82-4CF5-8E2C-E942D27F150D@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 1, 2019, at 10:17 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > RISC was never just about compiler and hardware simplification for improved > performance of the most frequently-executed instructions. It's also been > front-and-center in low-power (e.g., mobile) and embedded (now including > Internet of Things) applications, ... I think you may be mixing up where we ended up vs. where we started. Mobile applications were science fiction when RISC started. Especially if you take the view that the first RISC architecture machines were designed before the term was invented -- for example, it would be easy to make the argument that the CDC 6600 is a RISC machine. As for compiler simplification, I'm not so sure. A CISC machine like VAX makes compilers easy because the instruction set is so regular and so nicely matches the higher level operations. RISC instructions less so. Then again, most machines predating the PDP-11 are more like RISC in their instruction set limits and compilers cope with that. The biggest difference I can see is that by the time RISC became a buzzword, optimizers were good enough that hand-coding assembly language became uncommon. And for many RISC architectures -- consider Alpha for example, never mind Itanium -- that is crucial because hand-coding is just painfully hard. > ... > A Blue Screen of Death is truly fatal for a product that depends on an > embedded device, like an ATM in the middle of dispensing over half a grand > in cash, a DVR in a satellite TV receiver that requires upwards of ten > minutes to restart and get back to where the viewer was (minus the > permanently lost live recorded cache), or a self-driving vehicle at any > speed above zero. .... Certainly, but in almost all cases this is a question of software quality and the designers' attitude to reliability and careful design. People have built reliable systems on CISC machines (VMS for example) and on machines that predate the term (AGC). They've also built unreliable systems on any of these architectures. > The x86/x64 instruction set complexity hasn't been helpful in reducing the > security vulnerability of software running on those architectures, either. > The multiple parallel pipelines that make possible speculative execution of > a number of branches before associated decisions are computed, have > resulted in the whole new class of security vulnerabilities such as > Meltdown, Foreshadow, and Spectre. This isn't limited to x86/x64, however, > as the most recent multicore ARM processors have also fallen victim to such > issues, they've just been late to the game as the most advanced (and > complex) features have been pursued (somewhat for me-too marketing > purposes), so fewer families/generations have been affected. Are you arguing that speculative instruction is a marketing toy? I thought it's a feature that delivers real performance gains. And it's widely implemented on high end machines of both flavors for that reason. I can believe it's more significant on x86 because of its more complex pipelines but the RISC pipe at this point is also so much faster than memory that it's interesting there too. And it's done there, too. The issue doesn't appear on many other RISC architectures because those don't aim to the top performance levels but rather at other market niches. So Spectre is universal. Meltdown is not; that one comes from an Intel decision to delay page access checking, and wasn't implemented by others. There is no good reason to have a Meltdown vulnerability in any CPU architecture. But Spectre is fundamental to speculative execution. You can avoid it either by software workarounds in the kernel that are fairly cheap, or by adding hardware mechanisms to close off timing channels. The latter tends to be hard, though there might be other reasons why it's worth trying. paul From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Wed Jan 2 08:38:55 2019 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 15:38:55 +0100 Subject: Pascal Microengine disks images available. Message-ID: Finally got around to imaging the +/- 80 floppies that came with my ACI-90 Pascal Microengine system. Disks of general interest can be downloaded on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/WD9000/MicroEngine.zip These are mostly variants of the OS and a set of system selftests. Image SYSTEM/OS_F0_SingleDensity.IMD might be of particular interest as that is a single-density OS-disk, might be needed for those with very early systems. All others images are for double-density systems. Sorry for the lack of documentation, I don have anymore than this, and have yet to check the contents... As a sidenote, all BASF disks were unproblematic, unlike the ControlData and noname parts that were also in the mix. Jos From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jan 2 09:00:12 2019 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 10:00:12 -0500 Subject: OCR old software listing In-Reply-To: <6656f909859b50872eaf59ded71106a8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <6656f909859b50872eaf59ded71106a8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <2d0409da-7f10-1817-8e43-1bdc89a086c4@telegraphics.com.au> On 2019-01-02 7:22 AM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > I timed myself how long it would take to clean up Mattis' supplied image so it might > be able to be OCR'd more accurately. Using Paint.NET it took me 23 minutes to get to > the following: > http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/dvY973s_cleaned.png > > There are still a few little bits I missed, but happy to see if it reads better. > If the complete set are now up then I must have missed it. I posted a mechanically cleaned up version on 29 Dec: https://docs.telegraphics.com.au/mattis/spcwar_pdp11_edit.tif (_multipage_ TIF) It's 61 pages so at 23 minutes per page it's not something you'd want to do by hand. --Toby > > Steve. > > From ethan at 757.org Wed Jan 2 10:02:01 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 11:02:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Microware OS-9 68K books Message-ID: A friend and I went in on an Amiga 4000T haul last weekend, and with it were some nice hard binder and box Microware OS-9 68x00 books. I want to say there are two sets of two, and then some binders with photocopied style paperwork for BASIC. Is there any Microware fans that might want these? We were planning to put most of the Amiga software up on eBay to cut down the cost of the aquisition since it's mostly boring accounting/word processing stuff. There are no disks with these manuals, just looking to find them a new home. Can get more details if anyone is interested. -- : Ethan O'Toole From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 2 10:02:29 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2019 10:02:29 -0600 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: <014d01d4a275$7f1ff0a0$7d5fd1e0$@gmail.com> References: <014d01d4a275$7f1ff0a0$7d5fd1e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C2CE095.40309@pico-systems.com> On 01/02/2019 02:31 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: >> > I'm curious as to why you make this claim that microcode is no-go in "modern" designs. Could you please elaborate on this point? I don't see why the alternative random control logic would be a better proposition. > > Random logic instruction decode was a REAL issue in about 1960 - 1965, when computers were built with discrete transistors. The IBM 7092, for instance, had 55,000 transistors on 11,000 circuit boards. I don't know how much of that was instruction decode, but I'll guess that a fair bit was. The IBM 360's benefited from microcode, allowing them to have a much more complex and orthogonal instruction set with less logic. But, once ICs were available, the control logic was less of a problem. But, microcode still made sense, as memory was so slow that performance was dictated by memory cycle time, and the microced did not slow the system down. Once fast cache became standard, then eliminating performance bottlenecks became important. And, once we went from lots of SSI chips to implement a CPU to one big chip, then it was possible to implement the control logic within the CPU chip efficiently. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 2 12:22:26 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 10:22:26 -0800 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: <5C2CE095.40309@pico-systems.com> References: <014d01d4a275$7f1ff0a0$7d5fd1e0$@gmail.com> <5C2CE095.40309@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 1/2/19 8:02 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Random logic instruction decode was a REAL issue in about 1960 - 1965, > when computers were built with discrete transistors.? The IBM 7092, for > instance, had 55,000 transistors on 11,000 circuit boards.? I don't know > how much of that was instruction decode, but I'll guess that a fair bit > was.? The IBM 360's benefited from microcode, allowing them to have a > much more complex and orthogonal instruction set with less logic. > > But, once ICs were available, the control logic was less of a problem.? > But, microcode still made sense, as memory was so slow that performance > was dictated by memory cycle time, and the microced did not slow the > system down.? Once fast cache became standard, then eliminating > performance bottlenecks became important.? And, once we went from lots > of SSI chips to implement a CPU to one big chip, then it was possible to > implement the control logic within the CPU chip efficiently. I don't know--"microcode" in today's world is a very slippery term. If you're talking about vertical microcode, then I'm inclined to agree with you. But even ARM, which is held up as the golden example of microcode-less CPU design, is programmed via HDL, which is then compiled into a hardware design, at least in instruction decoding. So ARM is a programmed implementation. I suspect that if x86 microcode were to be written out in HDL and compiled, Intel could make the same claim. I think of it as being akin to "interpreted" vs. "compiled" languages--the boundary can be rather fuzzy (e.g. "tokenizing", "p-code", "incremental compilation"... etc.) --Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jan 2 12:44:59 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 10:44:59 -0800 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: <014d01d4a275$7f1ff0a0$7d5fd1e0$@gmail.com> <5C2CE095.40309@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <8406D1CE-F5CD-465D-A383-177F36BB251E@shiresoft.com> > On Jan 2, 2019, at 10:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/2/19 8:02 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> Random logic instruction decode was a REAL issue in about 1960 - 1965, >> when computers were built with discrete transistors. The IBM 7092, for >> instance, had 55,000 transistors on 11,000 circuit boards. I don't know >> how much of that was instruction decode, but I'll guess that a fair bit >> was. The IBM 360's benefited from microcode, allowing them to have a >> much more complex and orthogonal instruction set with less logic. >> >> But, once ICs were available, the control logic was less of a problem. >> But, microcode still made sense, as memory was so slow that performance >> was dictated by memory cycle time, and the microced did not slow the >> system down. Once fast cache became standard, then eliminating >> performance bottlenecks became important. And, once we went from lots >> of SSI chips to implement a CPU to one big chip, then it was possible to >> implement the control logic within the CPU chip efficiently. > > I don't know--"microcode" in today's world is a very slippery term. If > you're talking about vertical microcode, then I'm inclined to agree with > you. But even ARM, which is held up as the golden example of > microcode-less CPU design, is programmed via HDL, which is then compiled > into a hardware design, at least in instruction decoding. So ARM is a > programmed implementation. I suspect that if x86 microcode were to be > written out in HDL and compiled, Intel could make the same claim. > > I think of it as being akin to "interpreted" vs. "compiled" > languages--the boundary can be rather fuzzy (e.g. "tokenizing", > "p-code", "incremental compilation"... etc.) > Remember that ARM licenses it?s ISA as well as implementations. Some ARM licenses, do their own implementations and those *are* microcoded. There are a number of reasons for doing micro-code and a number of architectures use it especially if the micro-code can be ?patched? (which AFAIK they all do now) to allow for fixing ?bugs? once the chip has been released. If the bug is severe enough (remember the DIV bug in the early 80286?) to have a recall done then the overhead of having patchable micro-code will pay for itself many fold. It is also important to note, that today?s CPUs are not just a bare CPU implementing an ISA. They are embedded in an SoC with potentially many other micro-controllers/CPUs that are not visible to the programmer and those are all ?micro-coded? and control various aspects of the SoC. The last SoC that I worked on had (in addition to the 8 ARM application CPUs which are micro-coded BTW) has over 12 other micro-controllers (mostly ARM R5s)and 4 VLIW DSPs (not to mention several megabytes of SRAM that is outside of the various caches). After all you have to do something with 7 *billion* transistors. ;-) Also, recall that there are different forms of micro-code: horizontal and vertical. I think that IBM (in the S/360, S/370, S/390, z/Series) uses the term micro-code for horizontal micro-code and millicode for vertical microcode. TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 2 13:31:50 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 11:31:50 -0800 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: <8406D1CE-F5CD-465D-A383-177F36BB251E@shiresoft.com> References: <014d01d4a275$7f1ff0a0$7d5fd1e0$@gmail.com> <5C2CE095.40309@pico-systems.com> <8406D1CE-F5CD-465D-A383-177F36BB251E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 1/2/19 10:44 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > Also, recall that there are different forms of micro-code: horizontal > and vertical. I think that IBM (in the S/360, S/370, S/390, z/Series) > uses the term micro-code for horizontal micro-code and millicode > for vertical microcode. On the CDC STAR-100, "microcode" as such was a relatively recent concept and the designers went overboard, mostly because of an ill-defined customer base (hence, BCD and other commerical-class instructions, like translate, edit and mark, etc.). The STAR is basically a RISC-type vector architecture with a pile of microcoded instructions bolted on. While this results in a great many instructions, many were used little. It's hard to grasp that the same guy who designed the CDC 6400 (a RISC architecture) also designed the STAR-100. It's worth noting that all 256 8-bit opcodes are used; many are modified by another 8-bit modifier quantity whose meaning varies greatly. In effect, you have something closer to 1000 distinct instructions, if not more. For a compiler writer, or even an assembly coder, this was more of a problem--which combination of instructions could be used to the greatest effect? And why do I have to have the hardware manual on my desk to look up instructions? Subsequent embodiments of the architecture dropped a great many microcoded instructions, with, as far as I can tell, no deleterious effect. The manual for the STAR-100 hardware description is on bitsavers under cdc/cyber/cyber_200 if you're curious. Some earlier computers implemented additional instructions by hard-coding subroutines whose entry address was determined by the op-code of the instruction. Macro-coding, if you will. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 2 13:37:44 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 14:37:44 -0500 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: <014d01d4a275$7f1ff0a0$7d5fd1e0$@gmail.com> <5C2CE095.40309@pico-systems.com> <8406D1CE-F5CD-465D-A383-177F36BB251E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <256B0FF7-A6F3-4DA5-8150-9D1343EB0913@comcast.net> > On Jan 2, 2019, at 2:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/2/19 10:44 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > >> Also, recall that there are different forms of micro-code: horizontal >> and vertical. I think that IBM (in the S/360, S/370, S/390, z/Series) >> uses the term micro-code for horizontal micro-code and millicode >> for vertical microcode. > > On the CDC STAR-100, "microcode" as such was a relatively recent concept > and the designers went overboard, mostly because of an ill-defined > customer base (hence, BCD and other commerical-class instructions, like > translate, edit and mark, etc.). The STAR is basically a RISC-type > vector architecture with a pile of microcoded instructions bolted on. > ... > For a compiler writer, or even an assembly coder, this was more of a > problem--which combination of instructions could be used to the greatest > effect? And why do I have to have the hardware manual on my desk to > look up instructions? That reminds me of the Motorola 68040. I used that at DEC in a high speed switch (DECswitch 900 -- FDDI to 6 Ethernet ports). When studying the instruction timings, I realized there is a "RISC subset" of the instructions that run fast, a cycle or so per instruction. But the more complex instructions are much slower. So the conclusion for a fastpath writer is to use the RISC subset and pretend the fancy addressing mode instructions do not exist. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 2 13:47:11 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 11:47:11 -0800 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: References: <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232@mail.yahoo.com> <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> <3.0.6.32.20181230113517.011571e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <8093EB7B-F760-47CC-AEE6-44581AD8FA1B@comcast.net> <50d0bc6b-5384-19a9-1cc6-963984a886a1@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.32.20190101201616.01043c78@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <4fcd22c4-ea5a-93ba-2d36-ad48c4d21034@bitsavers.org> On 1/1/19 8:53 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On the bitsavers website it might be nice to add a > section where people can see what docs are available for pick up/rescue > opportunities. > I've added a section on the purpose and methodology of bitsavers on the bottom of the main bitsavers.org web page. I also started a bitsavers twitter feed over the weekend. http://twitter.com/bitsavers From db at db.net Wed Jan 2 14:09:37 2019 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 15:09:37 -0500 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: <256B0FF7-A6F3-4DA5-8150-9D1343EB0913@comcast.net> References: <014d01d4a275$7f1ff0a0$7d5fd1e0$@gmail.com> <5C2CE095.40309@pico-systems.com> <8406D1CE-F5CD-465D-A383-177F36BB251E@shiresoft.com> <256B0FF7-A6F3-4DA5-8150-9D1343EB0913@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20190102200937.GA43643@night.db.net> On Wed, Jan 02, 2019 at 02:37:44PM -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Jan 2, 2019, at 2:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 1/2/19 10:44 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > > >> Also, recall that there are different forms of micro-code: horizontal > >> and vertical. I think that IBM (in the S/360, S/370, S/390, z/Series) > >> uses the term micro-code for horizontal micro-code and millicode > >> for vertical microcode. > > > > On the CDC STAR-100, "microcode" as such was a relatively recent concept > > and the designers went overboard, mostly because of an ill-defined > > customer base (hence, BCD and other commerical-class instructions, like > > translate, edit and mark, etc.). The STAR is basically a RISC-type > > vector architecture with a pile of microcoded instructions bolted on. > > ... > > For a compiler writer, or even an assembly coder, this was more of a > > problem--which combination of instructions could be used to the greatest > > effect? And why do I have to have the hardware manual on my desk to > > look up instructions? > > That reminds me of the Motorola 68040. I used that at DEC in a high speed switch (DECswitch 900 -- FDDI to 6 Ethernet ports). When studying the instruction timings, I realized there is a "RISC subset" of the instructions that run fast, a cycle or so per instruction. But the more complex instructions are much slower. So the conclusion for a fastpath writer is to use the RISC subset and pretend the fancy addressing mode instructions do not exist. Which then reminds me further of the Coldfire processor which *did* remove the more complex instructions from the chip! > > paul > Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://artemis.db.net/~db From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 15:01:36 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 16:01:36 -0500 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: <4fcd22c4-ea5a-93ba-2d36-ad48c4d21034@bitsavers.org> References: <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232@mail.yahoo.com> <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> <3.0.6.32.20181230113517.011571e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <8093EB7B-F760-47CC-AEE6-44581AD8FA1B@comcast.net> <50d0bc6b-5384-19a9-1cc6-963984a886a1@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.32.20190101201616.01043c78@mail.optusnet.com.au> <4fcd22c4-ea5a-93ba-2d36-ad48c4d21034@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I will certainly follow that one, my twitter is @billdeg btw. On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 3:43 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/1/19 8:53 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > On the bitsavers website it might be nice to add a > > section where people can see what docs are available for pick up/rescue > > opportunities. > > > > I've added a section on the purpose and methodology of bitsavers on the > bottom of > the main bitsavers.org web page. > > I also started a bitsavers twitter feed over the weekend. > http://twitter.com/bitsavers > > > From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 16:26:44 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 23:26:44 +0100 Subject: SPACE WAR for PDP-11 - link issues Message-ID: So after some intensive transcribing work I finally got all files into source files ready for assembling using PAL11-S. Assembling under PAL11-S rooted out a bunch of errors and then when side by side comparing the output listing with the PDF I found a bunch of more errors. The next step involved linking and during the first run a number of errors surfaced again. On the last run I only had two undefined: $ICO and $ICI. It makes sense since these two are part of the FPMP-11 package and used for number conversion. However adding the FPMP-11 object as an extra input in the link does not resolve these two undefined symbols. Does anyone have a clue on how to get a proper link with FPMP-11 for these two symbols? Here is the repo with PDF files, source PAL files, LST files and OBJ files as generated by PAL11-S: https://github.com/MattisLind/SPACEWAR /Mattis From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 17:12:17 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 23:12:17 +0000 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: <20190102200937.GA43643@night.db.net> References: <014d01d4a275$7f1ff0a0$7d5fd1e0$@gmail.com> <5C2CE095.40309@pico-systems.com> <8406D1CE-F5CD-465D-A383-177F36BB251E@shiresoft.com> <256B0FF7-A6F3-4DA5-8150-9D1343EB0913@comcast.net>, <20190102200937.GA43643@night.db.net> Message-ID: I thought I'd note that the divide problem couldn't have been patched with a micro code patch. It was because one of the ROM arrays used as part of the divide lookup was missing its data. It would have been much more than a simple patch to fix. It would have had to go back to a full subroutine patch. Today's processors are still memory bound for speed, even with local cache. It is mostly poor coding from the compilers for instruction cache issue but data is also a problem as larger memory addressing has made it so that cache misses are more common. Some of the instruction misses are helped by pipe depth but misses become more of an issue as one has a deeper pipe. Again, it is the current compilers that often make larger pipe depth impractical. It was this that made the need for speculative execution necessary. This was the cause of all security issues of late. In any case, it all comes back to memory latency. All the tricks to minimize its effect have caused other issues. It is still the biggest single issue blocking higher speed processors. The 5 GHz wall is also there but is being fudged around by minimizing the active circuits at any one time. It buys a little but don't expect to see 10 GHz processors any time soon on silicon. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Diane Bruce via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 12:09 PM To: Paul Koning; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs On Wed, Jan 02, 2019 at 02:37:44PM -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Jan 2, 2019, at 2:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 1/2/19 10:44 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > > >> Also, recall that there are different forms of micro-code: horizontal > >> and vertical. I think that IBM (in the S/360, S/370, S/390, z/Series) > >> uses the term micro-code for horizontal micro-code and millicode > >> for vertical microcode. > > > > On the CDC STAR-100, "microcode" as such was a relatively recent concept > > and the designers went overboard, mostly because of an ill-defined > > customer base (hence, BCD and other commerical-class instructions, like > > translate, edit and mark, etc.). The STAR is basically a RISC-type > > vector architecture with a pile of microcoded instructions bolted on. > > ... > > For a compiler writer, or even an assembly coder, this was more of a > > problem--which combination of instructions could be used to the greatest > > effect? And why do I have to have the hardware manual on my desk to > > look up instructions? > > That reminds me of the Motorola 68040. I used that at DEC in a high speed switch (DECswitch 900 -- FDDI to 6 Ethernet ports). When studying the instruction timings, I realized there is a "RISC subset" of the instructions that run fast, a cycle or so per instruction. But the more complex instructions are much slower. So the conclusion for a fastpath writer is to use the RISC subset and pretend the fancy addressing mode instructions do not exist. Which then reminds me further of the Coldfire processor which *did* remove the more complex instructions from the chip! > > paul > Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://artemis.db.net/~db From fritzm at fritzm.org Wed Jan 2 17:19:54 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 15:19:54 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <7776B53D-1022-422E-84C1-236939778505@comcast.net> References: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7776B53D-1022-422E-84C1-236939778505@comcast.net> Message-ID: <41102658-5D8A-4A77-8364-CCCE27B135BC@fritzm.org> > On Jan 1, 2019, at 5:10 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > You could load monitor ODT (ODT option in the memory layout settings in DEFAULT) and set a breakpoint at LOG$DK, that's the error logging entry point of the driver. Then you could display the RK11 CSRs and we can see if we can figure out why it's unhappy. Hi Paul, I don?t seem to have and ODT option memory layout under DEFAULT (I?m trying to work with V06C; maybe this didn?t show up until later?) I?ll send along the output of a HARDWARE LIST shortly, and I?ll be checking out and archiving my spare pack this afternoon ? if that goes well, I?ll try a non-overalapped sysgen tonight as well. cheers, ?FritzM. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 2 17:25:02 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 15:25:02 -0800 Subject: SPACE WAR for PDP-11 - link issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/2/19 2:26 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have a clue on how to get a proper link with FPMP-11 for these > two symbols? the source paper tapes for fpmp are at http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/papertapeimages/20040101/tray07 TRAY07 dec-11-nfpma-a-pr1 8/72; fpmp-11 single precision package; replaces: dec-11-yqpc-pb; (c)1971,72 dec-11-nfpma-a-pr2 8/72; fpmp-11 double precision package; replaces: dec-11-yqpc-pb; (c)1971,72 dec-11-nfpma-a-pa1 8/72; fpmp-11 source; tape 1 of 6; replaces: dec-11-yqpc-pa; (c)1971,72 dec-11-nfpma-a-pa2 8/72; fpmp-11 source; tape 2 of 6; replaces: dec-11-yqpc-pa; (c)1971,72 dec-11-nfpma-a-pa3 8/72; fpmp-11 source; tape 3 of 6; replaces: dec-11-yqpc-pa; (c)1971,72 dec-11-nfpma-a-pa4 8/72; fpmp-11 source; tape 4 of 6; replaces: dec-11-yqpc-pa; (c)1971,72 dec-11-nfpma-a-pa5 8/72; fpmp-11 source; tape 5 of 6; replaces: dec-11-yqpc-pa; (c)1971,72 dec-11-nfpma-a-pa6 8/72; fpmp-11 source; tape 6 of 6; replaces: dec-11-yqpc-pa; (c)1971,72 From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 17:42:55 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 16:42:55 -0700 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: <014d01d4a275$7f1ff0a0$7d5fd1e0$@gmail.com> <5C2CE095.40309@pico-systems.com> <8406D1CE-F5CD-465D-A383-177F36BB251E@shiresoft.com> <256B0FF7-A6F3-4DA5-8150-9D1343EB0913@comcast.net> <20190102200937.GA43643@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 4:12 PM dwight via cctalk wrote: > I thought I'd note that the divide problem couldn't have been patched > with a micro code patch. If you're talking about the Pentium FDIV bug, present on the early 80501 chips (60 and 66 MHz) and 80502 chips (75, 90, and 100 MHz), they weren't able to fix that with a microcode patch. They actually issued a recall for those chips. However, Intel has successfully fixed other bugs using microcode patches, including some but not all of the recent speculative execution side channel problems (Meltdown and Spectre). They have also used microcode patches to disable instructions that were broken and couldn't be fixed by microcode, including the TSX-NI instructions of some Haswell, broadwell, and Skylake CPUs. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 2 18:40:17 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 19:40:17 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <41102658-5D8A-4A77-8364-CCCE27B135BC@fritzm.org> References: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7776B53D-1022-422E-84C1-236939778505@comcast.net> <41102658-5D8A-4A77-8364-CCCE27B135BC@fritzm.org> Message-ID: > On Jan 2, 2019, at 6:19 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jan 1, 2019, at 5:10 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> You could load monitor ODT (ODT option in the memory layout settings in DEFAULT) and set a breakpoint at LOG$DK, that's the error logging entry point of the driver. Then you could display the RK11 CSRs and we can see if we can figure out why it's unhappy. > > Hi Paul, > > I don?t seem to have and ODT option memory layout under DEFAULT (I?m trying to work with V06C; maybe this didn?t show up until later?) I'm pretty sure it was there for a long time. It's under memory layout suboptions. When it says "any memory layout changes" say yes, then when it asks what, say ODT. paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 22:12:31 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 04:12:31 +0000 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: <014d01d4a275$7f1ff0a0$7d5fd1e0$@gmail.com> <5C2CE095.40309@pico-systems.com> <8406D1CE-F5CD-465D-A383-177F36BB251E@shiresoft.com> <256B0FF7-A6F3-4DA5-8150-9D1343EB0913@comcast.net> <20190102200937.GA43643@night.db.net> , Message-ID: I believe that is the one. Intel tried to say it wasn't an issue until it was shown that the error was significant when using floating point numbers near integer values. I suspect that the fellow that forgot to include the mask file for that ROM got a bad review. Dwight ________________________________ From: Eric Smith Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 3:42 PM To: dwight; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 4:12 PM dwight via cctalk > wrote: I thought I'd note that the divide problem couldn't have been patched with a micro code patch. If you're talking about the Pentium FDIV bug, present on the early 80501 chips (60 and 66 MHz) and 80502 chips (75, 90, and 100 MHz), they weren't able to fix that with a microcode patch. They actually issued a recall for those chips. However, Intel has successfully fixed other bugs using microcode patches, including some but not all of the recent speculative execution side channel problems (Meltdown and Spectre). They have also used microcode patches to disable instructions that were broken and couldn't be fixed by microcode, including the TSX-NI instructions of some Haswell, broadwell, and Skylake CPUs. From fritzm at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 2 19:50:11 2019 From: fritzm at slac.stanford.edu (Mueller, Fritz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 01:50:11 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: References: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7776B53D-1022-422E-84C1-236939778505@comcast.net> <41102658-5D8A-4A77-8364-CCCE27B135BC@fritzm.org> Message-ID: > On Jan 2, 2019, at 4:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > I'm pretty sure it was there for a long time. It's under memory layout suboptions. When it says "any memory layout changes" say yes, then when it asks what, say ODT. Oh, I see, it's not listed as a valid sub option, but it is accepted when typed. It looks like I subsequently type ?ODT? at the ?Option:? prompt, then? And I suppose I get the value of ?LOG$DK? for setting the breakpoint from the listings generated when I sysgen? I?ll go read up a bit on ODT... thanks, --FritzM. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 00:16:54 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 06:16:54 -0000 Subject: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. In-Reply-To: <4fcd22c4-ea5a-93ba-2d36-ad48c4d21034@bitsavers.org> References: <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1601673435.10590771.1546106458232@mail.yahoo.com> <3ff7f233-0487-6c8a-8ddf-31f8039a990d@sydex.com> <3.0.6.32.20181230113517.011571e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <8093EB7B-F760-47CC-AEE6-44581AD8FA1B@comcast.net> <50d0bc6b-5384-19a9-1cc6-963984a886a1@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.32.20190101201616.01043c78@mail.optusnet.com.au> <4fcd22c4-ea5a-93ba-2d36-ad48c4d21034@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <02db01d4a32b$ed713e90$c853bbb0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via > cctalk > Sent: 02 January 2019 19:47 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF > COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please. > > > > On 1/1/19 8:53 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > On the bitsavers website it might be nice to add a section where > > people can see what docs are available for pick up/rescue > > opportunities. > > > > I've added a section on the purpose and methodology of bitsavers on the > bottom of the main bitsavers.org web page. > > I also started a bitsavers twitter feed over the weekend. > http://twitter.com/bitsavers > You might actually getting me looking at twitter on a regular basis... Dave From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 08:03:01 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 09:03:01 -0500 Subject: music dec tapes? (paper) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have tapes with labels 8-152a 8 Music Coding Program Symbolic #1 8-152 8 Music Coding Program Symbolic #2 8-152 Teddy Bear's Picnic Symbolic 8-152a Penny Lane Symbolic 8-152 Joy to the World Symbolic 8-152 Your Mother Should Know Symbolic 8-152a Penny Lane 0037-7720, 0170=7777 0171=7777, 0172=7750, 0173=6020 Binary 8-152 When I'm 64 0037=720, 0170=7776 0172-7750 8-162 MUSIC FOR THE PDP-8 Load Tunes: 440 Play Tunes: 400 "Start 8 Music" (hand-written, no printed label) On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 9:03 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jan 1, 2019, 15:18 Adrian Stoness via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org > wrote: > > > anyone seen these music tapes before i grabed this trays for the oddnes > of > > the content of these tapes? also apears to have the software to play > them? > > > > > > > https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Lot-of-15-digital-decus-Paper-Tapes-w-Case/273628629483?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 > > > > > > > https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Lot-of-8-digital-decus-Paper-Tapes-w-Case/273628539210?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 > > > > would this be some weird synthy type thing? > > control points for the sound boaerd used for automation on some fancy > desk? > > or somthing els? > > > > Vince has a listing for some version of DECUS 8-152 on his website ( > > http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/pdp8/src/decus/8-152/decus-8-152-lst.pdf > ). > I have reverse engineered it enough to have his version play a few songs. > However, it seems like there's a difference between the music tapes I have > and the listing he has. > > I don't know what hardware was required of this software, but I suspect it > to be a DAC responding on address 055. This seems to match with an AA01 > option. > > Did you end up buying these tapes? I have digitized the music tapes I > bought from the seller and will post them soon. It would be excellent if > the buyer of this lot would do the same. > > Musically, > > Kyle > > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 3 09:01:32 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 10:01:32 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: References: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7776B53D-1022-422E-84C1-236939778505@comcast.net> <41102658-5D8A-4A77-8364-CCCE27B135BC@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <462F01AA-3940-457B-B7CF-0F15C9A29C02@comcast.net> > On Jan 2, 2019, at 8:50 PM, Mueller, Fritz via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Jan 2, 2019, at 4:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> I'm pretty sure it was there for a long time. It's under memory layout suboptions. When it says "any memory layout changes" say yes, then when it asks what, say ODT. > > Oh, I see, it's not listed as a valid sub option, but it is accepted when typed. It looks like I subsequently type ?ODT? at the ?Option:? prompt, then? And I suppose I get the value of ?LOG$DK? for setting the breakpoint from the listings generated when I sysgen? > > I?ll go read up a bit on ODT... > > thanks, > --FritzM. I have a Monitor ODT manual from RSTS V4, I should find a way to make that available. It's pretty nearly standard ODT, there are a few extensions for mapping addresses -- essentially a "software MMU". But for the moment you should not need that. Yes, ODT is an undocumented option. Enter that and give the start address (for example "51K"). You can use the memory LIST option to see what is free. Right after the kernel is a good spot. It needs to be below 124K. You may have XBUF in the way; if so move it first. Once it's set, ODT will be loaded with RSTS at startup. It will be entered on a crash, or if you enter control-P at the console. That gives you a "BE" message ("breakpoint error") because entry is with the BPT instruction but there isn't an ODT breakpoint at that address. The ODT prompt is _ (underline) rather than *. You can examine stuff or do all the usual ODT things, then enter P to proceed. To find LOG$DK, you can either look in the link map (RSTS.MAP) from the SYSGEN, or ask the init PATCH option to tell you: RSTS V7.0-07 V7dm (DM0) Option: PA File to patch? Module name? Base address? LOG$DK Offset address? 0 Base Offset Old New? 104030 000000 016104 ? ^C Those empty entries are Line Feed to accept the default. This is a simple way to query the RSTS symbol table. From fritzm at fritzm.org Thu Jan 3 10:51:53 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 08:51:53 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <462F01AA-3940-457B-B7CF-0F15C9A29C02@comcast.net> References: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7776B53D-1022-422E-84C1-236939778505@comcast.net> <41102658-5D8A-4A77-8364-CCCE27B135BC@fritzm.org> <462F01AA-3940-457B-B7CF-0F15C9A29C02@comcast.net> Message-ID: <66389B92-8E68-4540-8A98-784A15806B10@fritzm.org> Hi Paul, > On Jan 3, 2019, at 7:01 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > I have a Monitor ODT manual from RSTS V4, I should find a way to make that available. It's pretty nearly standard ODT, there are a few extensions for mapping addresses Bitsavers has some docs for ODT from contemporaneous versions of RSX-11, which have seemed close enough to get me going with some experimentation. > To find LOG$DK, you can either look in the link map (RSTS.MAP) from the SYSGEN, or ask the init PATCH option to tell you So, I don?t see a LOG$DK in my V06C RSTS.MAP (though I do have LOG$KB and LOG$TM). PA returns ?address above module bounds? when looking for it, which I assume means it searched without finding it. Perhaps I missed a sysgen option for device logging or some such? I?ll go back and take a look? Thanks again for the help and tips! ?-FritzM. From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 14:49:07 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 21:49:07 +0100 Subject: SPACE WAR for PDP-11 - link issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Success sort off! > > the source paper tapes for fpmp are at > http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/papertapeimages/20040101/tray07 > > TRAY07 > > dec-11-nfpma-a-pr1 8/72; fpmp-11 single precision package; replaces: > dec-11-yqpc-pb; (c)1971,72 > dec-11-nfpma-a-pr2 8/72; fpmp-11 double precision package; replaces: > dec-11-yqpc-pb; (c)1971,72 > dec-11-nfpma-a-pa1 8/72; fpmp-11 source; tape 1 of 6; replaces: > dec-11-yqpc-pa; (c)1971,72 > dec-11-nfpma-a-pa2 8/72; fpmp-11 source; tape 2 of 6; replaces: > dec-11-yqpc-pa; (c)1971,72 > dec-11-nfpma-a-pa3 8/72; fpmp-11 source; tape 3 of 6; replaces: > dec-11-yqpc-pa; (c)1971,72 > dec-11-nfpma-a-pa4 8/72; fpmp-11 source; tape 4 of 6; replaces: > dec-11-yqpc-pa; (c)1971,72 > dec-11-nfpma-a-pa5 8/72; fpmp-11 source; tape 5 of 6; replaces: > dec-11-yqpc-pa; (c)1971,72 > dec-11-nfpma-a-pa6 8/72; fpmp-11 source; tape 6 of 6; replaces: > dec-11-yqpc-pa; (c)1971,72 > I did download those. But I linked with the pre made single precision package. Reading the manual more carefully reveal that there is not the complete FPMP-11 package in those pre made object files. So one have to assemble ones own version by specifying exactly which modules to include in a short file and then feed the six source file into PAL11-S. And voila a tailor made version of FPMP-11 made for SPACE WAR is produced. I then fed this object into LINK11-S followed by the 19 object files of SPACE WAR. Finishing with the POINT module. And after doing this twice I was greeted by a MODULE MAP and a 7323 byte absolute binary file! * U * E LOAD MAP TRANSFER ADDRESS: 000001 LOW LIMIT: 025562 HIGH LIMIT: 037460 ********** MODULE FPMP11 SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE <. ABS.> 000000 000000 < > 025562 000640 $ERR 026364 $ERRA 026374 $ERVEC 026414 $ICI 025570 $ICO 026074 $OCI 025562 $OCO 026066 $POLSH 026360 $V20A 026360 ********** MODULE CHAR SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 026422 000246 CHAR 026422 ********** MODULE CHRTAB SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 026670 000606 CHRTAB 026670 ********** MODULE COMPAR SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 027476 000444 COMPAR 027476 ********** MODULE EXPLOD SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 030142 000330 EXPLOD 030142 EXPREP 030260 EXPX 030266 EXPY 030270 ********** MODULE GRAVTY SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 030472 000450 GRAVTY 030472 ********** MODULE MULPLY SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 031142 000304 MULPLY 031142 ********** MODULE PARM SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 031446 001214 PARM 031446 ********** MODULE PWRUP SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 032662 000106 ********** MODULE RESET SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 032770 000206 CENTER 040000 ORBIT 000400 RESET 032770 RES01 033156 ********** MODULE RKT1 SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 033176 000160 RKT1 033176 ********** MODULE RKT2 SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 033356 000142 RKT2 033356 ********** MODULE SCORE SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 033520 000266 SCORE 033520 ********** MODULE SINCOS SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 034006 000462 SINCOS 034006 ********** MODULE SLINE SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 034470 000114 SLINE 034470 ********** MODULE SPCWAR SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 034604 000232 ADBR 176772 ADCS 176770 AMMO 035022 ANGH1 034760 ANGH2 035006 ANGL1 034756 ANGL2 035004 ANGMID 000702 DAC0 176750 DAC1 176752 DAC2 176754 FIRE 001440 FLAG1 034736 FLAG2 034764 GAME1 035026 GAME2 035030 GRVFLG 035032 HIT1 035010 HIT2 035012 MASK 002100 PTREP 035034 RKTSIZ 007000 SHOTS1 035014 SHOTS2 035016 SPCRST 034624 SPCWAR 034604 SUNSZ 004000 TSPEED 035024 WIN 035020 XDISP1 034754 XDISP2 035002 XSIZE1 034746 XSIZE2 034774 XVELH1 034752 XVELH2 035000 XVELL1 034750 XVELL2 034776 YDISP1 034744 YDISP2 034772 YSIZE1 034734 YSIZE2 034762 YVELH1 034742 YVELH2 034770 YVELL1 034740 YVELL2 034766 ********** MODULE SUN SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 035036 000304 SUN 035036 ********** MODULE UPDAT1 SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 035342 000356 UPDAT1 035342 ********** MODULE UPDAT2 SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 035720 000356 UPDAT2 035720 ********** MODULE POINT SECTION ENTRY ADDRESS SIZE < > 036276 001162 POINT 036276 PTNUM 036456 PASS 2 * Starting SPACE WAR (after loading the IOX-11 library) then gave this dialogue: sim> go 034604 SPACE WAR ANY CHANGES? (YES-NO) Y WANT A SUN WITH GRAVITY? (YES-NO) Y WANT REAPPEARING PHOTON TORPEDSOES? (YES-NO) Y INPUT # OF TORPEDOS RKTS WILL HAVE. STD=64 64 INPUT # OF HITS TO DESTROY A RKT STD=32 32 INPUT SPEED OF TORPEDOES. STD=16000 16000 HALT instruction, PC: 000042 (BIC R4,SP) sim> So it does run! I would guess that the lack of proper AD01 and AA11 hardware in SimH is the reason for the HALT, but it remain to be investigated! Next step is to adapt the code to the AR11 hardware in place for AD01 and AA11. From RichA at livingcomputers.org Thu Jan 3 14:48:15 2019 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 20:48:15 +0000 Subject: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board? In-Reply-To: <20181221131928.EF00D18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181221131928.EF00D18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <49cfe0f4d6b24173b28f1a25c012433f@livingcomputers.org> From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:19 AM >> From: Mattis Lind >> I cannot figure out which early machine it comes from. > They're called 'System Modules': > http://gunkies.org/wiki/System_Module > and they were used from the PDP-1 through (I think) the PDP-7; at least, this > PDP-7 internals image: > https://www.soemtron.org/images/jpgs/decimages/sn113robertjohnson85680004.jpg > seems to show System Modules at the top, and FLIP CHIPs at the bottom. (I'm > pretty sure even the first PDP-8 - the 'straight 8' - uses only early FLIP > CHIPs - transistorized ones.) Noel, The PDP-7 was the first system produced by DEC which used Flip Chip(TM) technology, as well as the first to be built using a Gardiner-Denver wirewrap machine instead of hand soldering. The System Modules(TM) in the PDP-7 chassis at LCM+L make up the 550 DECtape control for the 555 DECtape drives. The controller was common to the PDP-7 and the earlier PDP-4 (which was of course all System Modules). They appear in exactly one place in the entire system. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 3 15:30:12 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 16:30:12 -0500 Subject: SPACE WAR for PDP-11 - link issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jan 3, 2019, at 3:49 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > Success sort off! > > ... > > HALT instruction, PC: 000042 (BIC R4,SP) > > sim> > > So it does run! I would guess that the lack of proper AD01 and AA11 > hardware in SimH is the reason for the HALT, but it remain to be > investigated! > > Next step is to adapt the code to the AR11 hardware in place for AD01 and > AA11. Or add AA11/AD01 emulation? They are simple devices. I wonder if I still have my lab extensions to RT11 BASIC, which include code for those peripherals (as well as DR-11 and KW11-P). paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 3 19:17:49 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 20:17:49 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <66389B92-8E68-4540-8A98-784A15806B10@fritzm.org> References: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7776B53D-1022-422E-84C1-236939778505@comcast.net> <41102658-5D8A-4A77-8364-CCCE27B135BC@fritzm.org> <462F01AA-3940-457B-B7CF-0F15C9A29C02@comcast.net> <66389B92-8E68-4540-8A98-784A15806B10@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <695FC1A5-2817-4B29-A63D-4C838E84614F@comcast.net> > On Jan 3, 2019, at 11:51 AM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Paul, > >> On Jan 3, 2019, at 7:01 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> I have a Monitor ODT manual from RSTS V4, I should find a way to make that available. It's pretty nearly standard ODT, there are a few extensions for mapping addresses > > Bitsavers has some docs for ODT from contemporaneous versions of RSX-11, which have seemed close enough to get me going with some experimentation. > >> To find LOG$DK, you can either look in the link map (RSTS.MAP) from the SYSGEN, or ask the init PATCH option to tell you > > So, I don?t see a LOG$DK in my V06C RSTS.MAP (though I do have LOG$KB and LOG$TM). PA returns ?address above module bounds? when looking for it, which I assume means it searched without finding it. What we have here is a confusion on my part. The LOG$xx symbols are for the most part defined in the kernel definitions file KERNEL.MAC. They are EMT instructions with a device code in the low byte; in the kernel an EMT is handled as a request to invoke the error logging machinery. Dispatching for that goes through a table indexed by the EMT code, so what you actually need is to look in the correct entry of that table to find the RK11 driver logging entry point. A breakpoint set there should trigger when a disk error is reported by the driver. Here's how: RSTS V06C-03 FRITZTS (DK0) Option: PA File to patch? ERRTBL Illegal file name File to patch? Module name? ^C Option: PA File to patch? Module name? Base address? ERRTBL Offset address? LOG$DK-104000 Base Offset Old New? 030162 000030 055230 ? ^Z Offset address? ^Z Base address? 55230 Offset address? 0 Base Offset Old New? 055230 000000 004537 ? ^C Option: So in this example, 55230 is the error logging entry point for the RK11 driver. In V10.1, that code looks like this; I suspect the V6C code is the same or nearly so: .SBTTL ERROR LOGGING ERRENT LOG$DK CALLX ERLDSK,R5 ;;;USE COMMON ROUTINE .BYTE ERC$DK ;;;ERROR CODE .BYTE -1 ;;;OVERLAPPED SEEK .BYTE RKDS,6 ;;;OFFSET, 6 REGISTERS .BYTE 0,0 ;;;THAT'S ALL RETURN ;;; AND BACK In any case, that doesn't really matter. If you have a breakpoint at this location, you'll be able to capture the controller CSR contents which -- I hope -- will explain why the system is not happy. The way to set the breakpoint is simply to enter control/P for ODT, then 55230;B to set the breakpoint, then P to proceed. paul From fritzm at fritzm.org Thu Jan 3 21:08:48 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 19:08:48 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <695FC1A5-2817-4B29-A63D-4C838E84614F@comcast.net> References: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7776B53D-1022-422E-84C1-236939778505@comcast.net> <41102658-5D8A-4A77-8364-CCCE27B135BC@fritzm.org> <462F01AA-3940-457B-B7CF-0F15C9A29C02@comcast.net> <66389B92-8E68-4540-8A98-784A15806B10@fritzm.org> <695FC1A5-2817-4B29-A63D-4C838E84614F@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jan 3, 2019, at 5:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > So in this example, 55230 is the error logging entry point for the RK11 driver. ... If you have a breakpoint at this location, you'll be able to capture the controller CSR contents which -- I hope -- will explain why the system is not happy. > > The way to set the breakpoint is simply to enter control/P for ODT, then 55230;B to set the breakpoint, then P to proceed. Thanks, Paul! Tried but no luck: 177404 113000 002010 000005 $DK RSTS V06C-03 FRITZTS (DK0) Option: Disk is being cleaned - wait ? You currently have: JOB MAX = 10, SWAP MAX = 28K. You currently have crash dump enabled. DD-MMM-YY? 03-JAN-89 12:00 PM? 6:46 PM (...system starts looping error behavior; type ^P...) BE125652 _55230/004537 _55230;B _P (...system resumes looping error behavior without hitting breakpoint; sadness) Any additional or different recommended breakpoints to try? Or did I miss setting this up (I?m new to ODT.) thanks much, --FritzM. From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 15:30:34 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 16:30:34 -0500 Subject: music dec tapes? (paper) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76dded2e-f9c9-e18f-891b-9794ce443664@gmail.com> On 01/03/2019 09:03 AM, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > I have tapes with labels > > 8-152a 8 Music Coding Program Symbolic #1 > 8-152 8 Music Coding Program Symbolic #2 > 8-152 Teddy Bear's Picnic Symbolic > 8-152a Penny Lane Symbolic > 8-152 Joy to the World Symbolic > 8-152 Your Mother Should Know Symbolic > > 8-152a Penny Lane 0037-7720, 0170=7777 > 0171=7777, 0172=7750, > 0173=6020 Binary > > 8-152 When I'm 64 > 0037=720, 0170=7776 > 0172-7750 > > 8-162 MUSIC FOR THE PDP-8 > Load Tunes: 440 > Play Tunes: 400 > > "Start 8 Music" (hand-written, no printed label) > > On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 9:03 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019, 15:18 Adrian Stoness via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org >> wrote: >> >>> anyone seen these music tapes before i grabed this trays for the oddnes >> of >>> the content of these tapes? also apears to have the software to play >> them? >>> >>> >> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Lot-of-15-digital-decus-Paper-Tapes-w-Case/273628629483?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 >>> >>> >> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Lot-of-8-digital-decus-Paper-Tapes-w-Case/273628539210?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 >>> would this be some weird synthy type thing? >>> control points for the sound boaerd used for automation on some fancy >> desk? >>> or somthing els? >>> >> Vince has a listing for some version of DECUS 8-152 on his website ( >> >> http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/pdp8/src/decus/8-152/decus-8-152-lst.pdf >> ). >> I have reverse engineered it enough to have his version play a few songs. >> However, it seems like there's a difference between the music tapes I have >> and the listing he has. >> >> I don't know what hardware was required of this software, but I suspect it >> to be a DAC responding on address 055. This seems to match with an AA01 >> option. >> >> Did you end up buying these tapes? I have digitized the music tapes I >> bought from the seller and will post them soon. It would be excellent if >> the buyer of this lot would do the same. >> >> Musically, >> >> Kyle >> Those were likely with a PDP12 or LAB-8 with DAC board.? The code actually is a roughly digital version of tones in 10 or 12 bit form by writing sequential words (waveforms) to the DAC.? Before that it was done setting link and clearing link bit with a timing routine. There was a version of that also for MINC-11 and I've see variant back when that used multiple DAC cards for stereo or multiple voices. It was also a thing for the S100 8080/z80 set (using a DAC) and many other systems (Kim-1, Apple, Cosmac, Commodore....). Of course everyone here forgets the First Philadelphia Computer Music Festival on vinyl from '78 with samples of computer played music.? I run my copy on occasion just to remember being there. Allison From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 16:22:46 2019 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 16:22:46 -0600 Subject: music dec tapes? (paper) In-Reply-To: <76dded2e-f9c9-e18f-891b-9794ce443664@gmail.com> References: <76dded2e-f9c9-e18f-891b-9794ce443664@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM allison via cctech wrote: > Those were likely with a PDP12 or LAB-8 with DAC board. The code > actually is a roughly > digital version of tones in 10 or 12 bit form by writing sequential > words (waveforms) to > the DAC. > Do you have any information on the AA01-A DAC that was used with the PDP-12? I see in the PDP-12 System Reference Manual that it is capable of supporting three channels, 12 bits each. It gives an example of one instruction, 6551, which loads the first DAC. Is it safe to assume that 6552 and 6554 are the other instructions to load the other two DACs? I see the AA50-A in the 1972 PDP-8 Small Computer Handbook has sequential instructions for updating the DAC channels (up to 8). AA05-A/AA07 use a more complex address/data method to address more total channels, but that is listed in the Laboratory Computer Handbook as an option on the Negibus. > > Of course everyone here forgets the First Philadelphia Computer Music > Festival on vinyl from '78 > with samples of computer played music. I run my copy on occasion just > to remember being there. > I don't think this album has been forgotten; I have a copy, and I know others with copies, too. It seems as though "Unplayed by Human Hands" (both versions) are less well-known. I would like to work on getting the original software archived, assuming it's still out there, as it ran on a Straight-8. Thanks, Kyle From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 17:49:21 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 18:49:21 -0500 Subject: music dec tapes? (paper) In-Reply-To: References: <76dded2e-f9c9-e18f-891b-9794ce443664@gmail.com> Message-ID: <32f4dc58-b23c-081b-5c7d-36209735d183@gmail.com> On 01/03/2019 05:22 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM allison via cctech > > wrote: > > Those were likely with a PDP12 or LAB-8 with DAC board.? The code > actually is a roughly > digital version of tones in 10 or 12 bit form by writing sequential > words (waveforms) to > the DAC.?? > > > Do you have any information on the AA01-A DAC that was used with the > PDP-12? No but RICM as a PDP12or two.? Worth contacting them and all.? They might like a copy of the tapes if they don't already have them. > I see in the PDP-12 System Reference Manual that it is capable of > supporting three channels, 12 bits each. It gives an example of one > instruction, 6551, which loads the first DAC. Is it safe to assume > that 6552 and 6554 are the other instructions to load the other two DACs? > Unknown. > I see the AA50-A in the 1972 PDP-8 Small Computer Handbook has > sequential instructions for updating the DAC channels (up to 8). > > AA05-A/AA07 use a more complex address/data method to address more > total channels, but that is listed in the Laboratory Computer Handbook > as an option on the Negibus. > > Never played with 8s in any form other than omnibus. > Of course everyone here forgets the First Philadelphia Computer Music > Festival on vinyl from '78 > with samples of computer played music.? I run my copy on occasion just > to remember being there. > > > I don't think this album has been forgotten; I have a copy, and I know > others with copies, too. It seems as though "Unplayed by Human Hands" > (both versions) are less well-known. I would like to work on getting > the original software archived, assuming it's still out there, as it > ran on a Straight-8. > ITs also on line. Allison From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 22:15:19 2019 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 22:15:19 -0600 Subject: music dec tapes? (paper) In-Reply-To: <32f4dc58-b23c-081b-5c7d-36209735d183@gmail.com> References: <76dded2e-f9c9-e18f-891b-9794ce443664@gmail.com> <32f4dc58-b23c-081b-5c7d-36209735d183@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 3, 2019, 17:48 allison I don't think this album has been forgotten; I have a copy, and I know > others with copies, too. It seems as though "Unplayed by Human Hands" (both > versions) are less well-known. I would like to work on getting the original > software archived, assuming it's still out there, as it ran on a Straight-8. > > ITs also on line. > The recordings, or the software? If you're referring to the latter, please send a link! I know someone has a GitHub repository, but it's missing any and all PDP-8 files. Kyle > From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 01:52:31 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 00:52:31 -0700 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: <014d01d4a275$7f1ff0a0$7d5fd1e0$@gmail.com> <5C2CE095.40309@pico-systems.com> <8406D1CE-F5CD-465D-A383-177F36BB251E@shiresoft.com> <256B0FF7-A6F3-4DA5-8150-9D1343EB0913@comcast.net> <20190102200937.GA43643@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 9:12 PM dwight via cctalk wrote: > I believe that is the one. Intel tried to say it wasn't an issue until it > was shown that the error was significant when using floating point numbers > near integer values. I suspect that the fellow that forgot to include the > mask file for that ROM got a bad review. > The majority of the ROM contents were present. Apparently five entries were missing. http://www.verifsudha.com/2017/09/11/pentium-fdiv-bug-curious-engineer/ From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 01:53:26 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 00:53:26 -0700 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: <014d01d4a275$7f1ff0a0$7d5fd1e0$@gmail.com> <5C2CE095.40309@pico-systems.com> <8406D1CE-F5CD-465D-A383-177F36BB251E@shiresoft.com> <256B0FF7-A6F3-4DA5-8150-9D1343EB0913@comcast.net> <20190102200937.GA43643@night.db.net> Message-ID: Also http://www-math.mit.edu/~edelman/homepage/papers/pentiumbug.pdf From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 01:55:51 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 00:55:51 -0700 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: <014d01d4a275$7f1ff0a0$7d5fd1e0$@gmail.com> <5C2CE095.40309@pico-systems.com> <8406D1CE-F5CD-465D-A383-177F36BB251E@shiresoft.com> <256B0FF7-A6F3-4DA5-8150-9D1343EB0913@comcast.net> <20190102200937.GA43643@night.db.net> Message-ID: And the original analysis paper, "It Takes Six Ones to Reach a Flaw": http://www.acsel-lab.com/arithmetic/arith12/papers/ARITH12_Coe.pdf From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 4 02:24:22 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 09:24:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP music [was: music dec tapes? (paper)] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jan 2019, Bill Degnan wrote: > I have tapes with labels [...] > "Start 8 Music" (hand-written, no printed label) Speaking of PDP-8 music: there was also a music program for the HP 21xx computers. There are only absolute binary papertape images available. Does someone happen to have the source listing or program documentation for that? This music program plays on a MW radio just like the PDP-8 MUSIC program, but it plays only two notes a time. It runs well on our 2116B and 2100S. Christian From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 07:48:26 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 08:48:26 -0500 Subject: music dec tapes? (paper) In-Reply-To: References: <76dded2e-f9c9-e18f-891b-9794ce443664@gmail.com> <32f4dc58-b23c-081b-5c7d-36209735d183@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/03/2019 11:15 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019, 17:48 allison wrote: > >> I don't think this album has been forgotten; I have a copy, and I >> know others with copies, too. It seems as though "Unplayed by >> Human Hands" (both versions) are less well-known. I would like to >> work on getting the original software archived, assuming it's >> still out there, as it ran on a Straight-8. >> > ITs also on line. > > > The recordings, or the software? If you're referring to the latter, > please send a link! I know someone has a GitHub repository, but it's > missing any and all PDP-8 files.? > > Kyle > Recording as in record album on Vinyl.? From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 4 08:51:01 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 09:51:01 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: References: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7776B53D-1022-422E-84C1-236939778505@comcast.net> <41102658-5D8A-4A77-8364-CCCE27B135BC@fritzm.org> <462F01AA-3940-457B-B7CF-0F15C9A29C02@comcast.net> <66389B92-8E68-4540-8A98-784A15806B10@fritzm.org> <695FC1A5-2817-4B29-A63D-4C838E84614F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3E7E7EB0-ECB8-4CD0-BA57-AEAFF9DD6B2F@comcast.net> > On Jan 3, 2019, at 10:08 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jan 3, 2019, at 5:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> So in this example, 55230 is the error logging entry point for the RK11 driver. ... If you have a breakpoint at this location, you'll be able to capture the controller CSR contents which -- I hope -- will explain why the system is not happy. >> >> The way to set the breakpoint is simply to enter control/P for ODT, then 55230;B to set the breakpoint, then P to proceed. > > Thanks, Paul! Tried but no luck: > > ... > > (...system starts looping error behavior; type ^P...) > > BE125652 > _55230/004537 > _55230;B > _P > > (...system resumes looping error behavior without hitting breakpoint; sadness) > > Any additional or different recommended breakpoints to try? Or did I miss setting this up (I?m new to ODT.) > > thanks much, > --FritzM. The ODT command syntax is correct. I confirmed by setting a breakpoint at DSQ$DK, the "queue a disk request" driver entry point, and that breaks correctly -- just to make sure my memory hasn't faded. Plan B: set a breakpoint at "ERL" (040672 in your map) which is the entry point to the error logging code. That's where the display register is incremented as part of logging an error. On entry, R0 is the EMT code (a LOG$xx code, because these are EMTs in kernel mode). Many of those codes are fixed and defined in KERNEL.MAC which is in the kit. The ones that are configuration-dependent are in the RSTS.MAP listing, for example LOG$KB. The log code would tell us which device or component is unhappy. paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 09:08:05 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 15:08:05 +0000 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: <014d01d4a275$7f1ff0a0$7d5fd1e0$@gmail.com> <5C2CE095.40309@pico-systems.com> <8406D1CE-F5CD-465D-A383-177F36BB251E@shiresoft.com> <256B0FF7-A6F3-4DA5-8150-9D1343EB0913@comcast.net> <20190102200937.GA43643@night.db.net> , Message-ID: May ability to understand these papers is somewhat limited. If I understand correctly the following. Most divide routines that I've seen allow the remainder to be 1,0,-1 relative to the normal remainder. The answer will converge as the error of the remainder never leaves this range. In the case of the pentium, the remainder is 2,1,0,-1,-2. This allows the division to converge on the answer quicker. The error was that if the remainder was right on one edge it would eventually fall of the edge and not converge. From the paper, that would be the 5 1's in a row, of the divisor. At least that is my understanding. It is to early in the morning for me. Dwight ________________________________ From: Eric Smith Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 11:55 PM To: dwight; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs And the original analysis paper, "It Takes Six Ones to Reach a Flaw": http://www.acsel-lab.com/arithmetic/arith12/papers/ARITH12_Coe.pdf From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 16:21:46 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 15:21:46 -0700 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: <014d01d4a275$7f1ff0a0$7d5fd1e0$@gmail.com> <5C2CE095.40309@pico-systems.com> <8406D1CE-F5CD-465D-A383-177F36BB251E@shiresoft.com> <256B0FF7-A6F3-4DA5-8150-9D1343EB0913@comcast.net> <20190102200937.GA43643@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 8:08 AM dwight via cctalk wrote: > May ability to understand these papers is somewhat limited. If I > understand correctly the following. > Most divide routines that I've seen allow the remainder to be 1,0,-1 > relative to the normal remainder. The answer will converge as the error of > the remainder never leaves this range. > In the case of the pentium, the remainder is 2,1,0,-1,-2. This allows the > division to converge on the answer quicker. The error was that if the > remainder was right on one edge it would eventually fall of the edge and > not converge. From the paper, that would be the 5 1's in a row, of the > divisor. > My interpretation is that with the five table entries with the wrong values, it always converges, but for some input values it converges to the wrong answer. I could be wrong, though. In any case, I'm sure there were a lot of people at Intel that were unhappy that they couldn't patch this with a microcode fix or workaround. Although Intel relented and offered to replace ALL affected Pentiums, apparently a substantial number of the buggy ones were never sent in. From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jan 4 17:21:04 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 15:21:04 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <3E7E7EB0-ECB8-4CD0-BA57-AEAFF9DD6B2F@comcast.net> References: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7776B53D-1022-422E-84C1-236939778505@comcast.net> <41102658-5D8A-4A77-8364-CCCE27B135BC@fritzm.org> <462F01AA-3940-457B-B7CF-0F15C9A29C02@comcast.net> <66389B92-8E68-4540-8A98-784A15806B10@fritzm.org> <695FC1A5-2817-4B29-A63D-4C838E84614F@comcast.net> <3E7E7EB0-ECB8-4CD0-BA57-AEAFF9DD6B2F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <29ADA7CC-79EA-4DA0-BD12-C53909211008@fritzm.org> > On Jan 4, 2019, at 6:51 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Plan B: set a breakpoint at "ERL" (040672 in your map) which is the entry point to the error logging code. That's where the display register is incremented as part of logging an error. On entry, R0 is the EMT code (a LOG$xx code, because these are EMTs in kernel mode). Many of those codes are fixed and defined in KERNEL.MAC which is in the kit. The ones that are configuration-dependent are in the RSTS.MAP listing, for example LOG$KB. The log code would tell us which device or component is unhappy. Okay: BE125652 _040672;B _P 0B:040672 _$0;$7L $0 /000000 000400 001764 000000 000000 000000 001730 040672 _$S/004340 _777400;777412L 177400 /004713 000000 000344 000000 014000 001260 From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 4 19:15:15 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 20:15:15 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <29ADA7CC-79EA-4DA0-BD12-C53909211008@fritzm.org> References: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7776B53D-1022-422E-84C1-236939778505@comcast.net> <41102658-5D8A-4A77-8364-CCCE27B135BC@fritzm.org> <462F01AA-3940-457B-B7CF-0F15C9A29C02@comcast.net> <66389B92-8E68-4540-8A98-784A15806B10@fritzm.org> <695FC1A5-2817-4B29-A63D-4C838E84614F@comcast.net> <3E7E7EB0-ECB8-4CD0-BA57-AEAFF9DD6B2F@comcast.net> <29ADA7CC-79EA-4DA0-BD12-C53909211008@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <8647836B-B906-4F46-9E57-E428862BCDEC@comcast.net> > On Jan 4, 2019, at 6:21 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > > >> On Jan 4, 2019, at 6:51 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> Plan B: set a breakpoint at "ERL" (040672 in your map) which is the entry point to the error logging code. That's where the display register is incremented as part of logging an error. On entry, R0 is the EMT code (a LOG$xx code, because these are EMTs in kernel mode). Many of those codes are fixed and defined in KERNEL.MAC which is in the kit. The ones that are configuration-dependent are in the RSTS.MAP listing, for example LOG$KB. The log code would tell us which device or component is unhappy. > > Okay: > > BE125652 > _040672;B > _P > 0B:040672 > _$0;$7L > $0 /000000 000400 001764 000000 000000 000000 001730 040672 > > _$S/004340 > _777400;777412L > 177400 /004713 000000 000344 000000 014000 001260 Well, this is VERY interesting. The error code is LOG$CK, which is "run time system reported error". There are a couple of possibilities. That code is logged from within the kernel if a pseudo-vector (pointer to code in the runtime system) is invalid. It is also generated if the runtime system issues a .ERLOG EMT. BASIC does so if the .BAC file it wants to run has a bad checksum. So the likely answer is that either your INIT.BAC program, or your BASIC.RTS, is damaged. If you can rename INIT.BAC to something else, you can then try to start and you'd expect to see startup messages like this: ...You currently have crash dump enabled. 04-Jan-99? 08:09 PM? ?Can't find file or account ?Program lost-Sorry Ready If so, then reload INIT.BAC. Or if you have the source (INIT.BAS) just say "old init" and "compile". If you still get a loop, then I'd suspect [0,1]BASIC.RTS. Can you read the RK05 from the machinery you used to fill it originally? It might make sense simply to read parts of it, or all of it, and verify the contents are correct. paul From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jan 4 19:19:16 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 01:19:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) References: <792873729.13311242.1546651156493.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <792873729.13311242.1546651156493@mail.yahoo.com> ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? ANY ONE? USED IT? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!)) ED# From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 4 19:28:15 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 17:28:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) In-Reply-To: <792873729.13311242.1546651156493@mail.yahoo.com> References: <792873729.13311242.1546651156493.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <792873729.13311242.1546651156493@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Jan 2019, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > ELTRAN THE COMPILER > ANY DOCS? ANY ONE? USED IT? > (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!)) Was it one of the ones based on Valtrep? http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2017-March/033410.html -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jan 4 20:57:44 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 18:57:44 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <8647836B-B906-4F46-9E57-E428862BCDEC@comcast.net> References: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7776B53D-1022-422E-84C1-236939778505@comcast.net> <41102658-5D8A-4A77-8364-CCCE27B135BC@fritzm.org> <462F01AA-3940-457B-B7CF-0F15C9A29C02@comcast.net> <66389B92-8E68-4540-8A98-784A15806B10@fritzm.org> <695FC1A5-2817-4B29-A63D-4C838E84614F@comcast.net> <3E7E7EB0-ECB8-4CD0-BA57-AEAFF9DD6B2F@comcast.net> <29ADA7CC-79EA-4DA0-BD12-C53909211008@fritzm.org> <8647836B-B906-4F46-9E57-E428862BCDEC@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jan 4, 2019, at 5:15 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > So the likely answer is that either your INIT.BAC program, or your BASIC.RTS, is damaged ... > Can you read the RK05 from the machinery you used to fill it originally? It might make sense simply to read parts of it, or all of it, and verify the contents are correct. Oh, interesting! Yeah, I can read the pack back with PDP11GUI (another couple hours, ugh, but we?ll see what we see.) I?m thinking it would be handy to have a bit of standalone code that would just read through a pack and dump CRC-16 for each sector out the console for purposes like this. Then I could just blast over single sectors that don?t match. Maybe I?ll work on coding up that bit of MACRO while the longer complete dump is running? cheers, --FritzM. From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jan 4 22:22:34 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 04:22:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) References: <1274423412.13373999.1546662154255.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1274423412.13373999.1546662154255@mail.yahoo.com> have no idea but do have a feeling it might have been like a 'tiny fortran' Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Friday, January 4, 2019 Fred Cisin wrote: On Sat, 5 Jan 2019, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > ELTRAN THE COMPILER > ANY DOCS? ANY ONE? USED IT? > (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!)) Was? it? one? of the? ones based? on Valtrep? http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2017-March/033410.html -- Grumpy Ol' Fred? ? ??? ??? cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 4 22:42:43 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 20:42:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) In-Reply-To: <1274423412.13373999.1546662154255@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1274423412.13373999.1546662154255.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1274423412.13373999.1546662154255@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Would be interesting when you find it. Not necessarily "tiny" Remember WATFOR? (very impressive!) I had a lot of fun with PDQ FORTRAN on 1620. . . . and, my reply was meant in jest. You are nothing like the fellow who told us about Valtrep. (other than the sparcity of Google hits) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Sat, 5 Jan 2019, ED SHARPE wrote: > > have no idea but do have a feeling it might have been like a 'tiny fortran' > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > On Friday, January 4, 2019 Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 5 Jan 2019, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> ELTRAN THE COMPILER >> ANY DOCS? ANY ONE?? USED IT? >> (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!)) > > Was?? it?? one?? of the?? ones based?? on Valtrep? > > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2017-March/033410.html > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred?? ?? ?????? ?????? cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 5 00:12:41 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 22:12:41 -0800 Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) In-Reply-To: References: <1274423412.13373999.1546662154255.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1274423412.13373999.1546662154255@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6c92719e-abf3-3919-93ab-baef8df7c3a1@sydex.com> On 1/4/19 8:42 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Would be? interesting when you find it. > Not necessarily "tiny" > Remember WATFOR??? (very impressive!) I guesss not too many numerical methods types hwere, but ELTRAN is a subroutine in the EISPACK linear programming set. Yes, it's all FORTRAN: >From the subroutine: c c this subroutine is a translation of the algol procedure elmtrans, c num. math. 16, 181-204(1970) by peters and wilkinson. c handbook for auto. comp., vol.ii-linear algebra, 372-395(1971). c c this subroutine accumulates the stabilized elementary c similarity transformations used in the reduction of a c real general matrix to upper hessenberg form by elmhes. --Chuck From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jan 5 00:36:14 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 22:36:14 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: References: <20190101044332.D051818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7776B53D-1022-422E-84C1-236939778505@comcast.net> <41102658-5D8A-4A77-8364-CCCE27B135BC@fritzm.org> <462F01AA-3940-457B-B7CF-0F15C9A29C02@comcast.net> <66389B92-8E68-4540-8A98-784A15806B10@fritzm.org> <695FC1A5-2817-4B29-A63D-4C838E84614F@comcast.net> <3E7E7EB0-ECB8-4CD0-BA57-AEAFF9DD6B2F@comcast.net> <29ADA7CC-79EA-4DA0-BD12-C53909211008@fritzm.org> <8647836B-B906-4F46-9E57-E428862BCDEC@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jan 4, 2019, at 5:15 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > So the likely answer is that either your INIT.BAC program, or your BASIC.RTS, is damaged ... > Can you read the RK05 from the machinery you used to fill it originally? It might make sense simply to read parts of it, or all of it, and verify the contents are correct. Okay, I?ve managed to pull back an image of the RSTS pack I?ve been trying to boot, with PDP11GUI. A quick look with od and diff shows many differences between the two, but that?s not totally surprising I guess since the image on the real hardware was reconfigured with ODT, and its swap, error log, and crash files may be different? I?ll have to dig a little deeper there to sort the wheat from the chaff. But what *is* surprising is that the pulled back image boots and runs just fine under SIMH! Hmm... I guess I?ll go ahead and finish up my standalone sector CRC hack and run it both on the real hardware and on the just retrieved image with no changes on either end and make sure those are really identical. If that?s the case, it will come down to what?s different between my machine and SIMH. Maybe I?ve got some flaky memory on my machine? I can push harder on diagnostics on the MS11 and see if I can find anything fishy I guess. Lurking bug in the RK11 maybe? All the CPU, FPU, KT11, KW11, and RK11 MAINDECS are passing just fine. Puzzler... --FritzM. From technoid6502 at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 01:02:35 2019 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2019 02:02:35 -0500 Subject: OT? Upper limits of FSB Message-ID: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com> Apropos of nothing, I've been confuse for some time regarding maximum clock rates for local bus. My admittedly old information, which comes from the 3rd ed. of "High Performance Computer Architecture", a course I audited, indicates a maximum speed on the order of 1ghz for very very short trace lengths. Late model computers boast multi-hundred to multi gigahertz fsb's. Am I wrong in thinking this is an aggregate of several serial lines running at 1 to 200mhz? No straight answer has presented on searches online. So here's the question. Is maximum fsb on standard, non-optical bus still limited to a maximum of a couple of hundred megahertz, or did something happen in the last decade or two that changed things dramatically? I understand, at least think I do, that these ridiculously high frequency claims would not survive capacitance issues and RFI issues. When my brother claimed a 3.2ghz bus speed for his machine I just told him that was wrong, impossible for practical purposes, that it had to be an aggregate figure, a 'Pentium rating' sort of number rather than the actual clock speed. I envision switching bus tech akin to present networking, paralleled to sidestep the limit while keeping pin and trace counts low.....? Something like the PCIe 'lane' scheme in present use? This is surmise based on my own experience. When I was current, the way out of this limitation was fiber-optics for the bus. This was used in supercomputing and allowed interconnects of longer length at ridiculous speeds. Thanks for allowing me to entertain this question. Though it is not specifically a classic computer question, it does relate to development and history. Best, Technoid Mutant (Jeff Worley) From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 02:08:49 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 01:08:49 -0700 Subject: OT? Upper limits of FSB In-Reply-To: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com> References: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 5, 2019, 00:02 Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Apropos of nothing, I've been confuse for some time regarding maximum > clock rates for local bus. > > My admittedly old information, which comes from the 3rd ed. of "High > Performance Computer Architecture", a course I audited, indicates a > maximum speed on the order of 1ghz for very very short trace lengths. > > Late model computers boast multi-hundred to multi gigahertz fsb's. Am > I wrong in thinking this is an aggregate of several serial lines > running at 1 to 200mhz? No straight answer has presented on searches > online. > Each individual lane of PCIe gen 3 has one each transmit and receive differential pair which operate at a serial rate of 8 Gbps each. Gen 4 will be 16 Gbps. About 1.5% of that gets taken up by the 128b/130b line code overhead. There is additional overhead consumed by transaction framing, which means that long burst transfers will get much higher performance than individual 64-bit or smaller reads and writes. Doing those data rates with a multi-drop bus like legacy ISA or PCI would be almost impossible. Parallel multi-drop busses maxed out below 200 MHz. There are two tricks that make PCIe work: 1) PCIe is not a bus. It consists of strictly point-to-point links, with tightly controlled impedance. 2) PCIe multi-lane logical links don't assume any phase relationships between the lanes as a parallel bus would, so there is little or no problem with timing skew between lanes. The lanes are serialized and deserialized separately at the endpoints, and higher-level logic in the endpoints is responsible for distributing the data across the lanes of multi-lane links. If you have a motherboard with a 16 lane PCIe slot, two 4 lane slots, and two 1 lane slots, every one of the 26 lanes is an electrically separate set of point-to-point receive and transmit differential pairs. The way the chipset is wired makes all of these electrically independent PCIe lanes collectively act like a "bus" as viewed by the processor (or north bridge) and PCIe devices. From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jan 5 02:49:31 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 08:49:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) References: <1947114820.13393986.1546678171268.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1947114820.13393986.1546678171268@mail.yahoo.com> no is compiler a small one only 2 do loops allowed...ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Friday, January 4, 2019 Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 1/4/19 8:42 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Would be? interesting when you find it. > Not necessarily "tiny" > Remember WATFOR??? (very impressive!) I guesss not too many numerical methods types hwere, but ELTRAN is a subroutine in the EISPACK linear programming set.? Yes, it's all FORTRAN: >From the subroutine: c c? ? this subroutine is a translation of the algol procedure elmtrans, c? ? num. math. 16, 181-204(1970) by peters and wilkinson. c? ? handbook for auto. comp., vol.ii-linear algebra, 372-395(1971). c c? ? this subroutine accumulates the stabilized elementary c? ? similarity transformations used in the reduction of a c? ? real general matrix to upper hessenberg form by? elmhes. --Chuck From alan at alanlee.org Sat Jan 5 06:31:58 2019 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2019 07:31:58 -0500 Subject: OT? Upper limits of FSB In-Reply-To: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com> References: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <98dac7a1f7d422ddbb43a2f5bce1fd26@alanlee.org> I'll assume you've read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front-side_bus Even though synchronization base clocks have remained low, parallel buses can run up in the low GHz range (sub 4) in terms of data line transitions per second with as many as 128 parallel wires in sync. It's not just FSBs, memory is the same way. While parasitic effects do affect the limit. Routing 192, 288, etc wires in parallel with matched trace length on a PCB to get arrival times in-phase has been a large problem as well. So the trend is rather than running more and more wires in parallel with synchronized transfers across the entire span, span are being broken up into smaller and smaller units that run either unsynchronized or with their own timing delays. Even with memory - starting with DDR3 - each byte group is 'trained' separately by the controller and can run at different phase offsets to match the trace group routing. And parallel FSBs have been replaced with number of differential pairs running independently as the data is queued and reassembled on the receiving end (QPI & HyperTransport). Same trend in I/O buses starting with PCIe. Instead of 64 wires @ 66 MHz in PCI-X, a dual lane PCIe gen 1.0 link can handle a similar load with just 6 wires. -Alan On 2019-01-05 02:02, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > Apropos of nothing, I've been confuse for some time regarding maximum > clock rates for local bus. > > My admittedly old information, which comes from the 3rd ed. of "High > Performance Computer Architecture", a course I audited, indicates a > maximum speed on the order of 1ghz for very very short trace lengths. > > Late model computers boast multi-hundred to multi gigahertz fsb's. Am > I wrong in thinking this is an aggregate of several serial lines > running at 1 to 200mhz? No straight answer has presented on searches > online. > > So here's the question. Is maximum fsb on standard, non-optical bus > still limited to a maximum of a couple of hundred megahertz, or did > something happen in the last decade or two that changed things > dramatically? I understand, at least think I do, that these > ridiculously high frequency claims would not survive capacitance issues > and RFI issues. When my brother claimed a 3.2ghz bus speed for his > machine I just told him that was wrong, impossible for practical > purposes, that it had to be an aggregate figure, a 'Pentium rating' > sort of number rather than the actual clock speed. I envision > switching bus tech akin to present networking, paralleled to sidestep > the limit while keeping pin and trace counts low.....? Something like > the PCIe 'lane' scheme in present use? This is surmise based on my own > experience. > > When I was current, the way out of this limitation was fiber-optics for > the bus. This was used in supercomputing and allowed interconnects of > longer length at ridiculous speeds. > > Thanks for allowing me to entertain this question. Though it is not > specifically a classic computer question, it does relate to development > and history. > > > > Best, > > Technoid Mutant (Jeff Worley) From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sat Jan 5 06:54:56 2019 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 13:54:56 +0100 Subject: OT? Upper limits of FSB In-Reply-To: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com> References: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20190105125456.5q5nboisaxwjlraz@mooli.org.uk> On Sat, Jan 05, 2019 at 02:02:35AM -0500, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > [...] So here's the question. Is maximum fsb on standard, non-optical bus > still limited to a maximum of a couple of hundred megahertz, or did something > happen in the last decade or two that changed things dramatically? [...] Yes to both questions. High-speed computer systems no longer resemble the simple diagrams in computer science textbooks where there is a CPU with a parallel bus attached to memory and I/O devices like it's still the 1970s. Sadly, the speed of light has stubbornly failed to increase in line with Moore's Law, so we've had to reduce the length of busses instead. The PC's front-side-bus *was* such a 1970s-style bus, however by the 2000s it had withered from an 8MHz bus snaking all over the board and into and out of ISA cards to a few hundred MHz between just the CPU and the northbridge. To go faster still, the northbridge's functionality moved on-die and the FSB is now ancient history. (If antiquity means "before 2010".) In general, we don't bother with parallel busses any more, just point-to-point self-clocked serial links which can run into the gigahertz range. The bandwidth is increased further if necessary by adding more links, but this is not the same as a parallel bus as each link has its own independent clock and that adds a lot of extra complexity to the receiver. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 5 10:07:11 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 11:07:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > All the CPU, FPU, KT11, KW11, and RK11 MAINDECS are passing just fine. Don't forget Vonada Maxim #12: "Diagnostics are highly efficient in finding solved problems." :-) Noel From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 5 12:10:04 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 10:10:04 -0800 Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) In-Reply-To: References: <1274423412.13373999.1546662154255.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1274423412.13373999.1546662154255@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1651425f-f406-205d-5284-1e6fd1d7c00a@sydex.com> Okay, I think I found the reference to it. It turns out that it was a high-school student's project entered in the "Fourth Annual Computer Programming Contest for Grades 7 to 12'. To quote: "The 1966 winner was William J. Elliott, a 12th grade student at West High School in Minneapolis. His project, ELTRAN, is an algorithmic language compiler system for the UNIVAC 422 computer. Until the development of ELTRAN, no compiler existed for the computer." See PDF page 10 here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/computersAndAutomation/196701.pdf --Chuck P.S. One of these days, I'm going to host a course on "how to use Google". From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 5 12:17:52 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 10:17:52 -0800 Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) In-Reply-To: <1651425f-f406-205d-5284-1e6fd1d7c00a@sydex.com> References: <1274423412.13373999.1546662154255.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1274423412.13373999.1546662154255@mail.yahoo.com> <1651425f-f406-205d-5284-1e6fd1d7c00a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6e237124-1ac7-700d-b9be-beda8f3a0e16@sydex.com> Since it was a 53-year old high-school project, I doubt that you're going to find much on it. However, see the post by Steve Schweda here: https://community.hpe.com/t5/Operating-System-OpenVMS/Left-shift-by-more-than-32-bits-gt-undefined-in-DEC-C/td-p/5054212 He may actually have some familiarity with ELTRAN and know where some documentation exists. --Chuck On 1/5/19 10:10 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Okay, I think I found the reference to it. > > It turns out that it was a high-school student's project entered in the > "Fourth Annual Computer Programming Contest for Grades 7 to 12'. To quote: From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jan 5 12:21:53 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 18:21:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) References: <1152753582.13550260.1546712513898.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1152753582.13550260.1546712513898@mail.yahoo.com> (COME ON SOCRATES ...? DO YOUR? THING!) In a message dated 1/5/2019 1:49:38 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: no is compiler a small one only 2 do loops allowed...ed# Sent from AOL Mobile MailOn Friday, January 4, 2019 Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:On 1/4/19 8:42 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:> Would be? interesting when you find it.> Not necessarily "tiny"> Remember WATFOR??? (very impressive!) I guesss not too many numerical methods types hwere, but ELTRAN is asubroutine in the EISPACK linear programming set.? Yes, it's all FORTRAN: >From the subroutine: cc? ? this subroutine is a translation of the algol procedure elmtrans,c? ? num. math. 16, 181-204(1970) by peters and wilkinson.c? ? handbook for auto. comp., vol.ii-linear algebra, 372-395(1971).cc? ? this subroutine accumulates the stabilized elementaryc? ? similarity transformations used in the reduction of ac? ? real general matrix to upper hessenberg form by? elmhes. --Chuck From iain at csp-partnership.co.uk Sat Jan 5 12:36:56 2019 From: iain at csp-partnership.co.uk (Dr Iain Maoileoin) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 18:36:56 +0000 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP Message-ID: <4BDE03FE-1A04-4060-B245-6EFDDC503B42@csp-partnership.co.uk> Off topic, but looking for help and/or wisdom. If you visit https://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/saratov / you will see some photos and wire-lists of work that I have started on the front panel of a Capatob 2. I plan to get the switches and lights running on a blinkenbone board with a PDP8 emulation behind it. (I already have an PDP11/70 front-panel running on the same infrastructure) I have been struggling for over a year to get much info about this saratov computer (circuit diagrams etc). So I have started the reverse engineering on the panel. Does anybody know anything about this computer? online or offline it would be much appreciated. Iain From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jan 5 13:17:56 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 19:17:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) References: <860959218.13562972.1546715876710.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <860959218.13562972.1546715876710@mail.yahoo.com> Chuck! Many thanks! Update on? 422 UNIVAC? docs . .? some kind? ?people have mailed in? docs and? ?things? they have? found related to this? 422 UNIVAC ...? things are? shaping up! Many? thanks? ?to? all? these? folks- I? fear ever putting power to this? thing... so? may? parts to go? POP... I have a nice large? Variac.....? ?suggestions? Ed In a message dated 1/5/2019 11:18:00 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Since it was a 53-year old high-school project, I doubt that you're going to find much on it.? However, see the post by Steve Schweda here: https://community.hpe.com/t5/Operating-System-OpenVMS/Left-shift-by-more-than-32-bits-gt-undefined-in-DEC-C/td-p/5054212 He may actually have some familiarity with ELTRAN and know where some documentation exists. --Chuck On 1/5/19 10:10 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Okay, I think I found the reference to it. > > It turns out that it was a high-school student's project entered in the > "Fourth Annual Computer Programming Contest for Grades 7 to 12'.? To quote: From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jan 5 14:58:44 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 12:58:44 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> > On Jan 5, 2019, at 8:07 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Fritz Mueller >> All the CPU, FPU, KT11, KW11, and RK11 MAINDECS are passing just fine. > > Don't forget Vonada Maxim #12: > "Diagnostics are highly efficient in finding solved problems.? Well, there?s wisdom there, for sure! :-) Last night I also managed to put a new RSTS image, sysgen?d with the non-overlapped DK driver, on a different physical pack. It behaved exactly the same way on the real hardware (looping, counting up errors) on boot. So I think now overlapped vs. non-overlapped DK driver is not the issue, and media and image transfer fidelity are not the issue. A memory or MMU problem would be consistent with what has been seen so far, so I may bark up that tree a little more today. Paul, any additional suggestions for things to look at in ODT to try and wring out more information on the specifics of the fault? I did get some MACRO CRC-16 sub-routines coded up last night while waiting for various transfers, so I think I?ll go ahead and finish up the standalone CRC dumper utility today. Lastly, a 5V-tolerant USB FIFO breakout board is supposed to show up in the mails today. If that works out as simply as I hope to interface with a DR11-C, I should have a much better way to blast bits on and off the machine soon. cheers, --FritzM. From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 16:46:33 2019 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 17:46:33 -0500 Subject: uc04 + scsi2sd ? Message-ID: Hey all, Anyone know whether the Emulex UC04 works with the sd2scsi? I just bought a uc04 and it won't talk to any of my old scsi disks, seems to think there's supposed to be a "controller" in between :\ yuck. thx jake P.S. While I'm at it, anyone know how to get UC04 to talk to directly to plain scsi disks and tapes instead of these lunatic ESDI controller bridge things? From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat Jan 5 16:51:54 2019 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 22:51:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: uc04 + scsi2sd ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I use it with a UC07. Not sure what the difference in the controllers is thought. Get Outlook for iOS On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 5:46 PM -0500, "Jacob Ritorto via cctalk" wrote: Hey all, Anyone know whether the Emulex UC04 works with the sd2scsi? I just bought a uc04 and it won't talk to any of my old scsi disks, seems to think there's supposed to be a "controller" in between :\ yuck. thx jake P.S. While I'm at it, anyone know how to get UC04 to talk to directly to plain scsi disks and tapes instead of these lunatic ESDI controller bridge things? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 5 17:35:38 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 18:35:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: KD11-E/EA microcode flow diagrams Message-ID: <20190105233538.972AD18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> The copy of the KD11-EA engineering drawings (in the 11/34A Field Maintenance Print Set, MP-00190) on Bitsavers is missing most of the pages that hold the microcode flow diagrams. I have a set of the KD11-EA FMPS (MP-00192), which does have all the missing pages, which I can eventually scan. However, in the interim, the 11/34 Field Maintenance Print Set Vol. 2 (MP-00082) on Bitsavers has a complete set of microcode flow diagrams for the KD11-E (pp. 15-40 of the PDF), and they are almost identical to the KD11-EA diagrams. The only difference I can see (I compared page by page, to see if each page had the same microinstructions on it) is that on sheet 17; the last microinstruction for RTI/RTT has been moved from 002 -> 744. (The actual microinstruction contents seem to be the same.) I don't know whyo the changed address; I originally thought that perhaps they had to re-do the IR Decode ROMs when they added floating point, and they needed the original location to handle the start of the floating point microcode, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Noel From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jan 5 18:04:29 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 16:04:29 -0800 Subject: KD11-E/EA microcode flow diagrams In-Reply-To: <20190105233538.972AD18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190105233538.972AD18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 5, 2019, at 3:35 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > The only difference I can see (I compared page by page, to see if each page > had the same microinstructions on it) is that on sheet 17; the last > microinstruction for RTI/RTT has been moved from 002 -> 744. (The actual > microinstruction contents seem to be the same.) That?s interesting... So what?s at 002 now? Maybe something new was required there by micro branch/fork logic, so the original contents had to be moved? From jsw at ieee.org Sat Jan 5 18:06:48 2019 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 18:06:48 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> References: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On 1/5/19 2:58 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: >> On Jan 5, 2019, at 8:07 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >>> From: Fritz Mueller >>> All the CPU, FPU, KT11, KW11, and RK11 MAINDECS are passing just fine. >> Don't forget Vonada Maxim #12: >> "Diagnostics are highly efficient in finding solved problems.? > Well, there?s wisdom there, for sure! :-) > > Last night I also managed to put a new RSTS image, sysgen?d with the non-overlapped DK driver, on a different physical pack. It behaved exactly the same way on the real hardware (looping, counting up errors) on boot. > > So I think now overlapped vs. non-overlapped DK driver is not the issue, and media and image transfer fidelity are not the issue. A memory or MMU problem would be consistent with what has been seen so far, so I may bark up that tree a little more today. > > Paul, any additional suggestions for things to look at in ODT to try and wring out more information on the specifics of the fault? > > I did get some MACRO CRC-16 sub-routines coded up last night while waiting for various transfers, so I think I?ll go ahead and finish up the standalone CRC dumper utility today. > > Lastly, a 5V-tolerant USB FIFO breakout board is supposed to show up in the mails today. If that works out as simply as I hope to interface with a DR11-C, I should have a much better way to blast bits on and off the machine soon. > > cheers, > --FritzM. > Along those lines if you have a spare disk pack, try putting RT11(FB,XM) on the machine and give it a workout.?? This would exercise the machine a bit more than MAINDECS, though not as much as RSTS. A few suggestions from my ancient history running RK11-C and a mix of DEC and Diablo Drives.? I regularly disassembled, moved cross country and reassembled PDP 11/34 and LSI 11/73 systems. I ran them in small rooms which housed saltwater tanks containing sea creatures. * Given the age of this equipment, double check all the ground connections between the cabinets, PDU's, drives, outlets and CPU. * Carefully check for breaks or problems with drive cables and terminators. * I believe you need a terminator in the RK11-C if the second disk bus is unused. * Try using the drive on the other bus if RSTS can be booted of from DK4. * Make sure you only have one LTC active if a DL11-W and a KW11 are both in use. * If you are not using a common PDU for the CPU, Drive and RK11-C power supplies, make sure they all powered from outlets on the same phase. * Don't leave the disk packs or drives near the tanks.? The squid have good aim and their ink isn't kind to electrical devices. ??? Jerry From jsw at ieee.org Sat Jan 5 18:27:15 2019 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 18:27:15 -0600 Subject: uc04 + scsi2sd ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8f48055c-6ca2-d342-25d2-4c2baaedb0d3@ieee.org> Hi Jake, I don't have a UC04, but its manual states its? Peripheral Interface is SCSI single ended.? The pinout is just like the UC07, except for terminator power. ??? Jerry On 1/5/19 4:46 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > Hey all, > Anyone know whether the Emulex UC04 works with the sd2scsi? I just > bought a uc04 and it won't talk to any of my old scsi disks, seems to think > there's supposed to be a "controller" in between :\ yuck. > > thx > jake > > P.S. While I'm at it, anyone know how to get UC04 to talk to directly to > plain scsi disks and tapes instead of these lunatic ESDI controller bridge > things? From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jan 5 18:44:51 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 16:44:51 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: References: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <2CA1BCC4-8E94-4A21-9A3F-10F3AFFDBA03@fritzm.org> Hi Jerry, > On Jan 5, 2019, at 4:06 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > > Along those lines if you have a spare disk pack, try putting RT11(FB,XM) on the machine and give it a workout. This would exercise the machine a bit more than MAINDECS, though not as much as RSTS. Yup, I have previously had RT-11 running on this machine without incident. > ? I believe you need a terminator in the RK11-C if the second disk bus is unused. Yep, got that in there. > ? Try using the drive on the other bus if RSTS can be booted of from DK4. Easy enough experiment to try; would need to re-jumper the G740 disk selection flip chip in the RK11-C too, I guess? > ? Make sure you only have one LTC active if a DL11-W and a KW11 are both in use. Only a DL11-W in this system. > ? Don't leave the disk packs or drives near the tanks. The squid have good aim and their ink isn't kind to electrical devices. Ah, haven?t checked that one yet. I will carefully check my basement for squid! --FritzM. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 19:42:10 2019 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 19:42:10 -0600 Subject: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo Message-ID: I'm interested in finding a 386 or slow 486 machine or moboj ust for playing DOS games. Does anyone have such a thing sitting around, looking for a home? Thanks in advance. From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sat Jan 5 21:02:21 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 22:02:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2039907214.341781.1546743741252@email.ionos.com> > On January 5, 2019 at 8:42 PM drlegendre via cctalk wrote: > > > I'm interested in finding a 386 or slow 486 machine or moboj ust for > playing DOS games. Does anyone have such a thing sitting around, looking > for a home? > > Thanks in advance. I have a couple of 386sx motherboards with I think 1MB ram. I thought I had a full 386 board with 8MB ram but I can't seem to find it. Would one of those work for you? Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jan 5 21:03:29 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 03:03:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: SMECC on the hunt for Monarch hp 150 poster do U have one? or a hi res clean scan? References: <2056564350.13640687.1546743809848.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2056564350.13640687.1546743809848@mail.yahoo.com> Howdy? from the? ?desert? lands in Arizona!Early in the? HP DOS? PC? campaign? there was the? monarch? butterfly poster used to advertise? HP? 150 ... seeking to recreate? a duplicate? in a? corner of? the? room our? little? hp 150? computer exchange inc? ?demo desk? area? .... the? poster ( or a? print of it... )? ?is? needed! What? great? fun we are? having...? got a? 2886a? (need paper feeder? and receiver? little? flap? things that hung off? printer though)and the? stake of? all the? '150' blue? box? ?software'? to have there too? and other things? ? for the era...any other early poster material? good? too... the monarch? one is? what? sticks in my? brain... OK? also the? HP Portable 110? came? along too... interested in Ad? material for? it... have most of the hardware? to? look? ?interesting I? think. THANKS IN ADVANCE? ED SHARPE? ARCHIVIST FOR SMECC From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 5 21:55:49 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 19:55:49 -0800 Subject: uc04 + scsi2sd ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9fc4ea8d-2b99-5682-4bef-a25799b4cfd1@bitsavers.org> On 1/5/19 2:46 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > Hey all, > Anyone know whether the Emulex UC04 works with the sd2scsi? Nope. This card expects pre common command set disks with non-embedded scsi adapters. In a bad old days, you had to configure the scsi drive adapters with disk geometry before you could use them, and the UC04 does that for adapters like the Adaptec 4000. From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 22:41:21 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 20:41:21 -0800 Subject: uc04 + scsi2sd ? In-Reply-To: <9fc4ea8d-2b99-5682-4bef-a25799b4cfd1@bitsavers.org> References: <9fc4ea8d-2b99-5682-4bef-a25799b4cfd1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <97bc8c2b-9143-3d42-4c22-ec58452b17a3@gmail.com> On 1/5/2019 7:55 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/5/19 2:46 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: >> Hey all, >> Anyone know whether the Emulex UC04 works with the sd2scsi? > Nope. This card expects pre common command set disks with non-embedded > scsi adapters. > > In a bad old days, you had to configure the scsi drive adapters > with disk geometry before you could use them, and the UC04 > does that for adapters like the Adaptec 4000. > Al's right; I'll add two things: 1) I've used a SCSI2SD in other systems that formerly used an Adaptec 4000/5000 controller with some success, but I was only ever able to get a single drive to work at a time; you may have similar luck with the SCSI2SD if you configure it just right. 2) The SCSI2SD does currently have support for emulating some of these early controllers/bridges, but the Adaptecs aren't on the list yet -- however the SCSI2SD's creator has been open to feature requests in the past, and might be able to add support, and documentation for the Adaptect boards is readily available.? (And the SCSI2SD firmware's open as well, so you can hack it in yourself if you have the time, etc.) - Josh From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 23:17:50 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 05:17:50 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <2CA1BCC4-8E94-4A21-9A3F-10F3AFFDBA03@fritzm.org> References: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> <2CA1BCC4-8E94-4A21-9A3F-10F3AFFDBA03@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 12:45 AM Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > ? Try using the drive on the other bus if RSTS can be booted of from DK4. > > Easy enough experiment to try; would need to re-jumper the G740 disk selection flip chip in the RK11-C too, I guess? No. One difference between the RK11-C and RK11-D is how it does drive selects. The RK11-C has 4 select lines on each cable, one is asserted at a time. The RK11-D has a 3 bit binary selection. There's a decoder in the RK05 (on the G740 I think) that is enabled when the drive is connected to an RK11-D. The RK03 is 1-of-4 select only which is why it works on an RK11-C and not on an RK11-D. So on the first drive connector of the RK11-C you get selects 0..3. On the second cable you get 4..7. The drive is always jumpered for 0,1,2,3. If it's jumpered as drive 0 and you connect it to the first connector it's DK0. If it's jumpered as drive 0 and you connect it to the second connector it's DK4. -tony From jsw at ieee.org Sat Jan 5 23:37:19 2019 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 23:37:19 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: References: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> <2CA1BCC4-8E94-4A21-9A3F-10F3AFFDBA03@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <0381aa1f-bb09-17c7-490f-ed8247779015@ieee.org> On 1/5/19 11:17 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 12:45 AM Fritz Mueller via cctalk > wrote: > >>> ? Try using the drive on the other bus if RSTS can be booted of from DK4. >> Easy enough experiment to try; would need to re-jumper the G740 disk selection flip chip in the RK11-C too, I guess? > No. One difference between the RK11-C and RK11-D is how it does drive selects. > The RK11-C has 4 select lines on each cable, one is asserted at a > time. The RK11-D > has a 3 bit binary selection. There's a decoder in the RK05 (on the > G740 I think) that > is enabled when the drive is connected to an RK11-D. The RK03 is 1-of-4 select > only which is why it works on an RK11-C and not on an RK11-D. > > So on the first drive connector of the RK11-C you get selects 0..3. On > the second > cable you get 4..7. The drive is always jumpered for 0,1,2,3. If it's > jumpered as drive > 0 and you connect it to the first connector it's DK0. If it's jumpered > as drive 0 and > you connect it to the second connector it's DK4. > > -tony I have used a Diablo drive with 1 of 4 selection on a third party RKV11 controller which was 3 bit binary. It only worked as DK1, DK2 or DK4 for obvious reasons. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 23:40:10 2019 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 21:40:10 -0800 Subject: OT? Upper limits of FSB In-Reply-To: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com> References: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1B9BC890-8E94-4184-A6F8-6AAD35F5F924@gmail.com> Interconnects at 28Gb/s/lane have been out for a while now, supported by quite a few chips. 56Gb/s PAM4 is around the corner, and we run 100Gb/s in the lab right now. Just sayin? ;-). That said, we throw in about every equalization trick we know of, PCB materials are getting quite exotic and connectors are pretty interesting. We have to hand hold our customers to design their interconnect traces and connector breakouts. And you can?t go too far, with increasing reliance on micro-twinax or on-board optics for longer distances and backplanes. Marc > On Jan 4, 2019, at 11:02 PM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > > Apropos of nothing, I've been confuse for some time regarding maximum > clock rates for local bus. > > My admittedly old information, which comes from the 3rd ed. of "High > Performance Computer Architecture", a course I audited, indicates a > maximum speed on the order of 1ghz for very very short trace lengths. > > Late model computers boast multi-hundred to multi gigahertz fsb's. Am > I wrong in thinking this is an aggregate of several serial lines > running at 1 to 200mhz? No straight answer has presented on searches > online. > > So here's the question. Is maximum fsb on standard, non-optical bus > still limited to a maximum of a couple of hundred megahertz, or did > something happen in the last decade or two that changed things > dramatically? I understand, at least think I do, that these > ridiculously high frequency claims would not survive capacitance issues > and RFI issues. When my brother claimed a 3.2ghz bus speed for his > machine I just told him that was wrong, impossible for practical > purposes, that it had to be an aggregate figure, a 'Pentium rating' > sort of number rather than the actual clock speed. I envision > switching bus tech akin to present networking, paralleled to sidestep > the limit while keeping pin and trace counts low.....? Something like > the PCIe 'lane' scheme in present use? This is surmise based on my own > experience. > > When I was current, the way out of this limitation was fiber-optics for > the bus. This was used in supercomputing and allowed interconnects of > longer length at ridiculous speeds. > > Thanks for allowing me to entertain this question. Though it is not > specifically a classic computer question, it does relate to development > and history. > > > > Best, > > Technoid Mutant (Jeff Worley) > > > > > From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jan 5 23:45:39 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 21:45:39 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: References: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> <2CA1BCC4-8E94-4A21-9A3F-10F3AFFDBA03@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <52B95127-1712-4E7E-AF23-879C42FD7F1D@fritzm.org> > On Jan 5, 2019, at 9:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 12:45 AM Fritz Mueller via cctalk > >> Easy enough experiment to try; would need to re-jumper the G740 disk selection flip chip in the RK11-C too, I guess? > > No. One difference between the RK11-C and RK11-D is how it does drive selects. > ... The drive is always jumpered for 0,1,2,3. Hi Tony, I?m speaking of the G740 at C13 on the RK11-C backplane, appearing on sheet RK11-C-06 in the engineering drawings and described in the last paragraph of section 3.2.5 in the RK11-C manual? On my RK11-C, this is jumpered to enable only drives 0 and 1; all other jumpers are unpopulated. --FritzM. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 23:51:18 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 05:51:18 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <52B95127-1712-4E7E-AF23-879C42FD7F1D@fritzm.org> References: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> <2CA1BCC4-8E94-4A21-9A3F-10F3AFFDBA03@fritzm.org> <52B95127-1712-4E7E-AF23-879C42FD7F1D@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 5:45 AM Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > I?m speaking of the G740 at C13 on the RK11-C backplane, appearing on sheet RK11-C-06 in the engineering drawings and described in the last paragraph of section 3.2.5 in the RK11-C manual? > > On my RK11-C, this is jumpered to enable only drives 0 and 1; all other jumpers are unpopulated. Ooops... Yes, you do have to fit the jumper there. Actually, is there a good reason not to fit all jumpers on that board? -tony From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jan 5 23:58:48 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 21:58:48 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: References: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> <2CA1BCC4-8E94-4A21-9A3F-10F3AFFDBA03@fritzm.org> <52B95127-1712-4E7E-AF23-879C42FD7F1D@fritzm.org> Message-ID: > On Jan 5, 2019, at 9:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Actually, is there a good reason not to fit all jumpers on that board? Looking at it, I was just wondering the same thing! From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 00:53:34 2019 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 01:53:34 -0500 Subject: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo In-Reply-To: <2039907214.341781.1546743741252@email.ionos.com> References: <2039907214.341781.1546743741252@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: I have a stockpile of them. Will get you pictures tomorrow. On Sat, Jan 5, 2019, 11:59 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > On January 5, 2019 at 8:42 PM drlegendre via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > I'm interested in finding a 386 or slow 486 machine or moboj ust for > > playing DOS games. Does anyone have such a thing sitting around, looking > > for a home? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > I have a couple of 386sx motherboards with I think 1MB ram. I thought I > had a full 386 board with 8MB ram but I can't seem to find it. Would one > of those work for you? > > Will > > > "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise." -- Charlie Daniels > > > "The names of global variables should start with // " -- > https://isocpp.org > From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 08:08:03 2019 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 09:08:03 -0500 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP In-Reply-To: <4BDE03FE-1A04-4060-B245-6EFDDC503B42@csp-partnership.co.uk> References: <4BDE03FE-1A04-4060-B245-6EFDDC503B42@csp-partnership.co.uk> Message-ID: https://hapoc2015.sciencesconf.org/file/176702 gives a Little more history on Soviet copies of computers. The timing of the production of the Capatob 2 seems to make it a PDP8/L clone, not an M. What is called the 8 is really based on the 5, used 6-bit bytes, 12 bit words, and was Octal based - memory was the most expensive part of the system at least through the early 70s, and thus 12 bit words for double precision, 24bits, was a reasonable approach for a scientific computer. bb On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 1:37 PM Dr Iain Maoileoin via cctalk wrote: > > Off topic, but looking for help and/or wisdom. > > If you visit https://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/saratov / you will see some photos and wire-lists of work that I have started on the front panel of a Capatob 2. > > I plan to get the switches and lights running on a blinkenbone board with a PDP8 emulation behind it. (I already have an PDP11/70 front-panel running on the same infrastructure) > > I have been struggling for over a year to get much info about this saratov computer (circuit diagrams etc). So I have started the reverse engineering on the panel. > > Does anybody know anything about this computer? online or offline it would be much appreciated. > > Iain From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jan 6 11:42:15 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 10:42:15 -0700 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP In-Reply-To: References: <4BDE03FE-1A04-4060-B245-6EFDDC503B42@csp-partnership.co.uk> Message-ID: On 1/6/19 7:08 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > What is called the 8 is really based on the 5, used 6-bit bytes, 12 bit > words, and was Octal based Is "byte" the correct term for 6-bits? I thought a "byte" had always been 8-bits. But I started paying attention in the '90s, so I missed a lot. I would have blindly substituted "word" in place of "byte" except for the fact that you subsequently say "12-bit words". I don't know if "words" is parallel on purpose, as in representing a quantity of two 6-bit word. Will someone please explain what I'm missing that transpired before I started paying attention in the '90s? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 6 12:19:00 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:19:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP Message-ID: <20190106181900.A0CC718C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Grant Taylor > Is "byte" the correct term for 6-bits? I thought a "byte" had always > been 8-bits. I don't claim wide familiary with architectural jargon from the early days, but the PDP-10 at least (I don't know about other prominent 36-bit machines such as the IBM 7094/etc, and the GE 635/645) supported 'bytes' of any size, with 'byte pointers' used in a couple of instructions which could extract and deposit 'bytes' from a word; the pointers specified the starting bit, and the width of the 'byte'. These were used for both SIXBIT (an early character encoding), and ASCII (7-bit bytes, 5 per word, with one bit left over). > I would have blindly substituted "word" in place of "byte" except for > the fact that you subsequently say "12-bit words". I don't know if > "words" is parallel on purpose, as in representing a quantity of two > 6-bit word. I think 'word' was usually used to describe the instruction size (although some machines also supported 'half-word' instructions), and also the machine's 'ordinary' length - e.g. for the accumulator(s), the quantum of data transfer to/from memory, etc. Not necessarily memory addresses, mind - on the PDP-10, those were 18 bits (i.e. half-word) - although the smallest thing _named_ by a memory addresses was usually a word. Noel From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jan 6 12:25:53 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 10:25:53 -0800 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP In-Reply-To: <20190106181900.A0CC718C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190106181900.A0CC718C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8DE380B6-8B44-4114-90BB-073D82A7B7C3@shiresoft.com> I think it?s also telling that the IETF uses the term octet in all of the specifications to refer to 8-bit sized data. As ?byte? (from older machines) could be anything and is thus somewhat ambiguous. It *may* have been the IBM 360 that started the trend of Byte == 8-bits as the 360?s memory (in IBM?s terms) was byte addressable and the instructions for accessing them were ?byte? instructions (as opposed to half-word and word instructions). TTFN - Guy > On Jan 6, 2019, at 10:19 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Grant Taylor > >> Is "byte" the correct term for 6-bits? I thought a "byte" had always >> been 8-bits. > > I don't claim wide familiary with architectural jargon from the early days, > but the PDP-10 at least (I don't know about other prominent 36-bit machines > such as the IBM 7094/etc, and the GE 635/645) supported 'bytes' of any size, > with 'byte pointers' used in a couple of instructions which could extract and > deposit 'bytes' from a word; the pointers specified the starting bit, and the > width of the 'byte'. These were used for both SIXBIT (an early character > encoding), and ASCII (7-bit bytes, 5 per word, with one bit left over). > >> I would have blindly substituted "word" in place of "byte" except for >> the fact that you subsequently say "12-bit words". I don't know if >> "words" is parallel on purpose, as in representing a quantity of two >> 6-bit word. > > I think 'word' was usually used to describe the instruction size (although > some machines also supported 'half-word' instructions), and also the > machine's 'ordinary' length - e.g. for the accumulator(s), the quantum of > data transfer to/from memory, etc. Not necessarily memory addresses, mind - > on the PDP-10, those were 18 bits (i.e. half-word) - although the smallest > thing _named_ by a memory addresses was usually a word. > > Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 6 12:43:45 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:43:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP Message-ID: <20190106184345.2F9AA18C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > I think it's also telling that the IETF uses the term octet in all of > the specifications to refer to 8-bit sized data. Yes; at the time the TCP/IP specs were done, PDP-10's were still probably the most numerous machines on the 'net, so we were careful to use 'octet'. Although the writing was clearly on the wall, which is why it's all in octets, with no support for other-length words (unlike the ARPANET, which sort of supported word lengths which were not a multiple of 8 or 16 - which was actually use to transfer binary data between 36-bit machines). > It *may* have been the IBM 360 that started the trend of Byte = > 8-bits Yup. And then the PDP-11 put the nail in that coffin (and in 1980, there were more PDP-11's, world-wide, than any other kind of computer). Noel From technoid6502 at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 12:48:06 2019 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 13:48:06 -0500 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58803683a7f752f081f6d7b01a30772d1f44a076.camel@gmail.com> On Sun, 2019-01-06 at 12:00 -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Re: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8 Nothing has changed as regards the number of bits in a byte, a nybble is 4 bits, 8 to the byte, and x to the word - this last varies widely depending on architecture. Still, in Spirit, on an octal processor a whole number is a six bit 'byte', so the term is appropriate, especially to avoid confusion with the word size of two six bit 'bytes'. Fun. Jeff From technoid6502 at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 12:48:45 2019 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 13:48:45 -0500 Subject: Microcode dated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48f4c058d8cdb209289f502abe59c490364d2b8a.camel@gmail.com> On Sun, 2019-01-06 at 12:00 -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR > STUFF!))) (Chuck Guzis) > 2. Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR > STUFF!))) (Chuck Guzis) > 3. Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR > STUFF!))) (ED SHARPE) > 4. off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP > (Dr Iain Maoileoin) > 5. Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR > STUFF!))) (ED SHARPE) > 6. Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem (Fritz Mueller) > 7. uc04 + scsi2sd ? (Jacob Ritorto) > 8. Re: uc04 + scsi2sd ? (Richard Cini) > 9. KD11-E/EA microcode flow diagrams (Noel Chiappa) > 10. Re: KD11-E/EA microcode flow diagrams (Fritz Mueller) > 11. Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem (Jerry Weiss) > 12. Re: uc04 + scsi2sd ? (Jerry Weiss) > 13. Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem (Fritz Mueller) > 14. ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo (drlegendre) > 15. Re: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) > 16. SMECC on the hunt for Monarch hp 150 poster do U have one? > or a hi res clean scan? (ED SHARPE) > 17. Re: uc04 + scsi2sd ? (Al Kossow) > 18. Re: uc04 + scsi2sd ? (Josh Dersch) > 19. Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem (Tony Duell) > 20. Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem (Jerry Weiss) > 21. Re: OT? Upper limits of FSB (Curious Marc) > 22. Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem (Fritz Mueller) > 23. Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem (Tony Duell) > 24. Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem (Fritz Mueller) > 25. Re: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo (devin davison) > 26. Re: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? > HELP (Bob Smith) > 27. Re: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? > HELP (Grant Taylor) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 10:10:04 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis > To: Fred Cisin via cctalk > Subject: Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR > STUFF!))) > Message-ID: <1651425f-f406-205d-5284-1e6fd1d7c00a at sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Okay, I think I found the reference to it. > > It turns out that it was a high-school student's project entered in > the > "Fourth Annual Computer Programming Contest for Grades 7 to 12'. To > quote: > > "The 1966 winner was William J. Elliott, a 12th grade student at West > High School in Minneapolis. His project, ELTRAN, is an algorithmic > language compiler system for the UNIVAC 422 computer. Until the > development of ELTRAN, no compiler existed for the computer." > > See PDF page 10 here: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/computersAndAutomation/196701.pdf > > --Chuck > > P.S. One of these days, I'm going to host a course on "how to use > Google". > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 10:17:52 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis > To: Chuck Guzis via cctalk > Subject: Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR > STUFF!))) > Message-ID: <6e237124-1ac7-700d-b9be-beda8f3a0e16 at sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Since it was a 53-year old high-school project, I doubt that you're > going to find much on it. However, see the post by Steve Schweda > here: > > https://community.hpe.com/t5/Operating-System-OpenVMS/Left-shift-by-more-than-32-bits-gt-undefined-in-DEC-C/td-p/5054212 > > He may actually have some familiarity with ELTRAN and know where some > documentation exists. > > --Chuck > > > > > On 1/5/19 10:10 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Okay, I think I found the reference to it. > > > > It turns out that it was a high-school student's project entered in > > the > > "Fourth Annual Computer Programming Contest for Grades 7 to > > 12'. To quote: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 18:21:53 +0000 (UTC) > From: ED SHARPE > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR > STUFF!))) > Message-ID: <1152753582.13550260.1546712513898 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > (COME ON SOCRATES ...? DO YOUR? THING!) > > In a message dated 1/5/2019 1:49:38 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > no is compiler a small one only 2 do loops allowed...ed# > Sent from AOL Mobile MailOn Friday, January 4, 2019 Chuck Guzis via > cctalk wrote:On 1/4/19 8:42 > PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:> Would be? interesting when you find > it.> Not necessarily "tiny"> Remember WATFOR??? (very impressive!) > I guesss not too many numerical methods types hwere, but ELTRAN is > asubroutine in the EISPACK linear programming set.? Yes, it's all > FORTRAN: > > From the subroutine: > cc? ? this subroutine is a translation of the algol procedure > elmtrans,c? ? num. math. 16, 181-204(1970) by peters and wilkinson.c? > ? handbook for auto. comp., vol.ii-linear algebra, 372-395(1971).cc? > ? this subroutine accumulates the stabilized elementaryc? ? > similarity transformations used in the reduction of ac? ? real > general matrix to upper hessenberg form by? elmhes. > --Chuck > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 18:36:56 +0000 > From: Dr Iain Maoileoin > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP > Message-ID: > <4BDE03FE-1A04-4060-B245-6EFDDC503B42 at csp-partnership.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Off topic, but looking for help and/or wisdom. > > If you visit https://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/saratov < > https://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/saratov>/ < > https://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/> you will see some photos and wire- > lists of work that I have started on the front panel of a Capatob 2. > > I plan to get the switches and lights running on a blinkenbone board > with a PDP8 emulation behind it. (I already have an PDP11/70 front- > panel running on the same infrastructure) > > I have been struggling for over a year to get much info about this > saratov computer (circuit diagrams etc). So I have started the > reverse engineering on the panel. > > Does anybody know anything about this computer? online or offline it > would be much appreciated. > > Iain > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 19:17:56 +0000 (UTC) > From: ED SHARPE > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org, cclist at sydex.com, COURYHOUSE at aol.com > Subject: Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR > STUFF!))) > Message-ID: <860959218.13562972.1546715876710 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Chuck! Many thanks! > Update on? 422 UNIVAC? docs . .? some kind? ?people have mailed in? > docs and? ?things? they have? found related to this? 422 UNIVAC ...? > things are? shaping up! Many? thanks? ?to? all? these? folks- > > I? fear ever putting power to this? thing... so? may? parts to go? > POP... I have a nice large? Variac.....? ?suggestions? > Ed > > In a message dated 1/5/2019 11:18:00 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > Since it was a 53-year old high-school project, I doubt that you're > going to find much on it.? However, see the post by Steve Schweda > here: > > https://community.hpe.com/t5/Operating-System-OpenVMS/Left-shift-by-more-than-32-bits-gt-undefined-in-DEC-C/td-p/5054212 > > He may actually have some familiarity with ELTRAN and know where some > documentation exists. > > --Chuck > > > > > On 1/5/19 10:10 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Okay, I think I found the reference to it. > > > > It turns out that it was a high-school student's project entered in > > the > > "Fourth Annual Computer Programming Contest for Grades 7 to 12'.? > > To quote: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 12:58:44 -0800 > From: Fritz Mueller > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > Message-ID: <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD at fritzm.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > On Jan 5, 2019, at 8:07 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > From: Fritz Mueller > > > All the CPU, FPU, KT11, KW11, and RK11 MAINDECS are passing just > > > fine. > > > > Don't forget Vonada Maxim #12: > > "Diagnostics are highly efficient in finding solved problems.? > > Well, there?s wisdom there, for sure! :-) > > Last night I also managed to put a new RSTS image, sysgen?d with the > non-overlapped DK driver, on a different physical pack. It behaved > exactly the same way on the real hardware (looping, counting up > errors) on boot. > > So I think now overlapped vs. non-overlapped DK driver is not the > issue, and media and image transfer fidelity are not the issue. A > memory or MMU problem would be consistent with what has been seen so > far, so I may bark up that tree a little more today. > > Paul, any additional suggestions for things to look at in ODT to try > and wring out more information on the specifics of the fault? > > I did get some MACRO CRC-16 sub-routines coded up last night while > waiting for various transfers, so I think I?ll go ahead and finish up > the standalone CRC dumper utility today. > > Lastly, a 5V-tolerant USB FIFO breakout board is supposed to show up > in the mails today. If that works out as simply as I hope to > interface with a DR11-C, I should have a much better way to blast > bits on and off the machine soon. > > cheers, > --FritzM. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 17:46:33 -0500 > From: Jacob Ritorto > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: uc04 + scsi2sd ? > Message-ID: > < > CAHYQbfABUeqYRHVCDGFJW=AWwEmP85aCn5GUNeeVvbxKVNw=Ow at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Hey all, > Anyone know whether the Emulex UC04 works with the sd2scsi? I just > bought a uc04 and it won't talk to any of my old scsi disks, seems to > think > there's supposed to be a "controller" in between :\ yuck. > > thx > jake > > P.S. While I'm at it, anyone know how to get UC04 to talk to directly > to > plain scsi disks and tapes instead of these lunatic ESDI controller > bridge > things? > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 22:51:54 +0000 (UTC) > From: Richard Cini > To: Jacob Ritorto , "General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: uc04 + scsi2sd ? > Message-ID: > < > C8CACE9E45EB766D.E58C2E33-FDBF-42C3-836D-A38B62C941C3 at mail.outlook.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > > I use it with a UC07. Not sure what the difference in the > controllers is thought. > > > > Get Outlook for iOS > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 5:46 PM -0500, "Jacob Ritorto via cctalk" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hey all, > Anyone know whether the Emulex UC04 works with the sd2scsi? I just > bought a uc04 and it won't talk to any of my old scsi disks, seems to > think > there's supposed to be a "controller" in between :\ yuck. > > thx > jake > > P.S. While I'm at it, anyone know how to get UC04 to talk to directly > to > plain scsi disks and tapes instead of these lunatic ESDI controller > bridge > things? > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 18:35:38 -0500 (EST) > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: KD11-E/EA microcode flow diagrams > Message-ID: <20190105233538.972AD18C0BE at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > > The copy of the KD11-EA engineering drawings (in the 11/34A Field > Maintenance > Print Set, MP-00190) on Bitsavers is missing most of the pages that > hold the > microcode flow diagrams. I have a set of the KD11-EA FMPS (MP-00192), > which > does have all the missing pages, which I can eventually scan. > However, in the > interim, the 11/34 Field Maintenance Print Set Vol. 2 (MP-00082) on > Bitsavers > has a complete set of microcode flow diagrams for the KD11-E (pp. 15- > 40 of the > PDF), and they are almost identical to the KD11-EA diagrams. > > The only difference I can see (I compared page by page, to see if > each page > had the same microinstructions on it) is that on sheet 17; the last > microinstruction for RTI/RTT has been moved from 002 -> 744. (The > actual > microinstruction contents seem to be the same.) > > I don't know whyo the changed address; I originally thought that > perhaps they > had to re-do the IR Decode ROMs when they added floating point, and > they > needed the original location to handle the start of the floating > point > microcode, but that doesn't seem to be the case. > > Noel > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 16:04:29 -0800 > From: Fritz Mueller > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: KD11-E/EA microcode flow diagrams > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > On Jan 5, 2019, at 3:35 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > The only difference I can see (I compared page by page, to see if > > each page > > had the same microinstructions on it) is that on sheet 17; the last > > microinstruction for RTI/RTT has been moved from 002 -> 744. (The > > actual > > microinstruction contents seem to be the same.) > > That?s interesting... So what?s at 002 now? Maybe something new was > required there by micro branch/fork logic, so the original contents > had to be moved? > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 18:06:48 -0600 > From: Jerry Weiss > To: Fritz Mueller , "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 1/5/19 2:58 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > > On Jan 5, 2019, at 8:07 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > From: Fritz Mueller > > > > All the CPU, FPU, KT11, KW11, and RK11 MAINDECS are passing > > > > just fine. > > > Don't forget Vonada Maxim #12: > > > "Diagnostics are highly efficient in finding solved problems.? > > Well, there?s wisdom there, for sure! :-) > > > > Last night I also managed to put a new RSTS image, sysgen?d with > > the non-overlapped DK driver, on a different physical pack. It > > behaved exactly the same way on the real hardware (looping, > > counting up errors) on boot. > > > > So I think now overlapped vs. non-overlapped DK driver is not the > > issue, and media and image transfer fidelity are not the issue. A > > memory or MMU problem would be consistent with what has been seen > > so far, so I may bark up that tree a little more today. > > > > Paul, any additional suggestions for things to look at in ODT to > > try and wring out more information on the specifics of the fault? > > > > I did get some MACRO CRC-16 sub-routines coded up last night while > > waiting for various transfers, so I think I?ll go ahead and finish > > up the standalone CRC dumper utility today. > > > > Lastly, a 5V-tolerant USB FIFO breakout board is supposed to show > > up in the mails today. If that works out as simply as I hope to > > interface with a DR11-C, I should have a much better way to blast > > bits on and off the machine soon. > > > > cheers, > > --FritzM. > > > Along those lines if you have a spare disk pack, try putting > RT11(FB,XM) > on the machine and give it a workout.?? This would exercise the > machine > a bit more than MAINDECS, though not as much as RSTS. > > A few suggestions from my ancient history running RK11-C and a mix > of > DEC and Diablo Drives.? I regularly disassembled, moved cross > country > and reassembled PDP 11/34 and LSI 11/73 systems. I ran them in small > rooms which housed saltwater tanks containing sea creatures. > > * Given the age of this equipment, double check all the ground > connections between the cabinets, PDU's, drives, outlets and CPU. > * Carefully check for breaks or problems with drive cables and > terminators. > * I believe you need a terminator in the RK11-C if the second disk > bus > is unused. > * Try using the drive on the other bus if RSTS can be booted of > from DK4. > * Make sure you only have one LTC active if a DL11-W and a KW11 are > both in use. > * If you are not using a common PDU for the CPU, Drive and RK11-C > power supplies, make sure they all powered from outlets on the > same > phase. > * Don't leave the disk packs or drives near the tanks.? The squid > have > good aim and their ink isn't kind to electrical devices. > > ??? Jerry > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 18:27:15 -0600 > From: Jerry Weiss > To: Jacob Ritorto , "General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: uc04 + scsi2sd ? > Message-ID: <8f48055c-6ca2-d342-25d2-4c2baaedb0d3 at ieee.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Hi Jake, > > I don't have a UC04, but its manual states its? Peripheral Interface > is > SCSI single ended.? The pinout is just like the UC07, except for > terminator power. > > ??? Jerry > > On 1/5/19 4:46 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > > Hey all, > > Anyone know whether the Emulex UC04 works with the sd2scsi? I > > just > > bought a uc04 and it won't talk to any of my old scsi disks, seems > > to think > > there's supposed to be a "controller" in between :\ yuck. > > > > thx > > jake > > > > P.S. While I'm at it, anyone know how to get UC04 to talk to > > directly to > > plain scsi disks and tapes instead of these lunatic ESDI controller > > bridge > > things? > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 16:44:51 -0800 > From: Fritz Mueller > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > Message-ID: <2CA1BCC4-8E94-4A21-9A3F-10F3AFFDBA03 at fritzm.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi Jerry, > > > On Jan 5, 2019, at 4:06 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > > > > Along those lines if you have a spare disk pack, try putting > > RT11(FB,XM) on the machine and give it a workout. This would > > exercise the machine a bit more than MAINDECS, though not as much > > as RSTS. > > Yup, I have previously had RT-11 running on this machine without > incident. > > > ? I believe you need a terminator in the RK11-C if the second > > disk bus is unused. > > Yep, got that in there. > > > ? Try using the drive on the other bus if RSTS can be booted of > > from DK4. > > Easy enough experiment to try; would need to re-jumper the G740 disk > selection flip chip in the RK11-C too, I guess? > > > ? Make sure you only have one LTC active if a DL11-W and a KW11 > > are both in use. > > Only a DL11-W in this system. > > > ? Don't leave the disk packs or drives near the tanks. The > > squid have good aim and their ink isn't kind to electrical devices. > > Ah, haven?t checked that one yet. I will carefully check my basement > for squid! > > --FritzM. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 19:42:10 -0600 > From: drlegendre > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo > Message-ID: > < > CAFjrmd4Y27od8rxFBHcszAV4=KANscJyuVq31mn6ckE7AQ+wjg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I'm interested in finding a 386 or slow 486 machine or moboj ust for > playing DOS games. Does anyone have such a thing sitting around, > looking > for a home? > > Thanks in advance. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 22:02:21 -0500 (EST) > From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net > To: drlegendre , "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo > Message-ID: <2039907214.341781.1546743741252 at email.ionos.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > > On January 5, 2019 at 8:42 PM drlegendre via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > I'm interested in finding a 386 or slow 486 machine or moboj ust > > for > > playing DOS games. Does anyone have such a thing sitting around, > > looking > > for a home? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > I have a couple of 386sx motherboards with I think 1MB ram. I > thought I had a full 386 board with 8MB ram but I can't seem to find > it. Would one of those work for you? > > Will > > > "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels > > > "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --? > https://isocpp.org > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 03:03:29 +0000 (UTC) > From: ED SHARPE > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: SMECC on the hunt for Monarch hp 150 poster do U > have one? > or a hi res clean scan? > Message-ID: <2056564350.13640687.1546743809848 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Howdy? from the? ?desert? lands in Arizona!Early in the? HP DOS? PC? > campaign? there was the? monarch? butterfly poster used to advertise? > HP? 150 ... seeking to recreate? a duplicate? in a? corner of? the? > room our? little? hp 150? computer exchange inc? ?demo desk? area? > .... the? poster ( or a? print of it... )? ?is? needed! > What? great? fun we are? having...? got a? 2886a? (need paper feeder? > and receiver? little? flap? things that hung off? printer though)and > the? stake of? all the? '150' blue? box? ?software'? to have there > too? and other things? ? for the era...any other early poster > material? good? too... the monarch? one is? what? sticks in my? > brain... > OK? also the? HP Portable 110? came? along too... interested in Ad? > material for? it... have most of the hardware? to? look? ?interesting > I? think. > THANKS IN ADVANCE? ED SHARPE? ARCHIVIST FOR SMECC > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 19:55:49 -0800 > From: Al Kossow > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: uc04 + scsi2sd ? > Message-ID: <9fc4ea8d-2b99-5682-4bef-a25799b4cfd1 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > On 1/5/19 2:46 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > > Hey all, > > Anyone know whether the Emulex UC04 works with the sd2scsi? > > Nope. This card expects pre common command set disks with non- > embedded > scsi adapters. > > In a bad old days, you had to configure the scsi drive adapters > with disk geometry before you could use them, and the UC04 > does that for adapters like the Adaptec 4000. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 20:41:21 -0800 > From: Josh Dersch > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: uc04 + scsi2sd ? > Message-ID: <97bc8c2b-9143-3d42-4c22-ec58452b17a3 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > > On 1/5/2019 7:55 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/5/19 2:46 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > > > Hey all, > > > Anyone know whether the Emulex UC04 works with the sd2scsi? > > Nope. This card expects pre common command set disks with non- > > embedded > > scsi adapters. > > > > In a bad old days, you had to configure the scsi drive adapters > > with disk geometry before you could use them, and the UC04 > > does that for adapters like the Adaptec 4000. > > > Al's right; I'll add two things: > > 1) I've used a SCSI2SD in other systems that formerly used an > Adaptec > 4000/5000 controller with some success, but I was only ever able to > get > a single drive to work at a time; you may have similar luck with the > SCSI2SD if you configure it just right. > > 2) The SCSI2SD does currently have support for emulating some of > these > early controllers/bridges, but the Adaptecs aren't on the list yet > -- > however the SCSI2SD's creator has been open to feature requests in > the > past, and might be able to add support, and documentation for the > Adaptect boards is readily available.? (And the SCSI2SD firmware's > open > as well, so you can hack it in yourself if you have the time, etc.) > > - Josh > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 05:17:50 +0000 > From: Tony Duell > To: Fritz Mueller , "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > Message-ID: > < > CAHkUCCzgCmUGP4fD9aKTtNGVfqWahVRxWgHAVSAiu3FHU2J-8g at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 12:45 AM Fritz Mueller via cctalk > wrote: > > > > ? Try using the drive on the other bus if RSTS can be > > > booted of from DK4. > > > > Easy enough experiment to try; would need to re-jumper the G740 > > disk selection flip chip in the RK11-C too, I guess? > > No. One difference between the RK11-C and RK11-D is how it does drive > selects. > The RK11-C has 4 select lines on each cable, one is asserted at a > time. The RK11-D > has a 3 bit binary selection. There's a decoder in the RK05 (on the > G740 I think) that > is enabled when the drive is connected to an RK11-D. The RK03 is 1- > of-4 select > only which is why it works on an RK11-C and not on an RK11-D. > > So on the first drive connector of the RK11-C you get selects 0..3. > On > the second > cable you get 4..7. The drive is always jumpered for 0,1,2,3. If it's > jumpered as drive > 0 and you connect it to the first connector it's DK0. If it's > jumpered > as drive 0 and > you connect it to the second connector it's DK4. > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 23:37:19 -0600 > From: Jerry Weiss > To: Tony Duell , "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" , Fritz Mueller > > Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > Message-ID: <0381aa1f-bb09-17c7-490f-ed8247779015 at ieee.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 1/5/19 11:17 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 12:45 AM Fritz Mueller via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > ? Try using the drive on the other bus if RSTS can be > > > > booted of from DK4. > > > Easy enough experiment to try; would need to re-jumper the G740 > > > disk selection flip chip in the RK11-C too, I guess? > > No. One difference between the RK11-C and RK11-D is how it does > > drive selects. > > The RK11-C has 4 select lines on each cable, one is asserted at a > > time. The RK11-D > > has a 3 bit binary selection. There's a decoder in the RK05 (on the > > G740 I think) that > > is enabled when the drive is connected to an RK11-D. The RK03 is 1- > > of-4 select > > only which is why it works on an RK11-C and not on an RK11-D. > > > > So on the first drive connector of the RK11-C you get selects 0..3. > > On > > the second > > cable you get 4..7. The drive is always jumpered for 0,1,2,3. If > > it's > > jumpered as drive > > 0 and you connect it to the first connector it's DK0. If it's > > jumpered > > as drive 0 and > > you connect it to the second connector it's DK4. > > > > -tony > > I have used a Diablo drive with 1 of 4 selection on a third party > RKV11 > controller which was 3 bit binary. > It only worked as DK1, DK2 or DK4 for obvious reasons. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 21:40:10 -0800 > From: Curious Marc > To: "Jeffrey S. Worley" , "General > Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: OT? Upper limits of FSB > Message-ID: <1B9BC890-8E94-4184-A6F8-6AAD35F5F924 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Interconnects at 28Gb/s/lane have been out for a while now, supported > by quite a few chips. 56Gb/s PAM4 is around the corner, and we run > 100Gb/s in the lab right now. Just sayin? ;-). That said, we throw in > about every equalization trick we know of, PCB materials are getting > quite exotic and connectors are pretty interesting. We have to hand > hold our customers to design their interconnect traces and connector > breakouts. And you can?t go too far, with increasing reliance on > micro-twinax or on-board optics for longer distances and backplanes. > Marc > > > On Jan 4, 2019, at 11:02 PM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Apropos of nothing, I've been confuse for some time regarding > > maximum > > clock rates for local bus. > > > > My admittedly old information, which comes from the 3rd ed. of > > "High > > Performance Computer Architecture", a course I audited, indicates a > > maximum speed on the order of 1ghz for very very short trace > > lengths. > > > > Late model computers boast multi-hundred to multi gigahertz > > fsb's. Am > > I wrong in thinking this is an aggregate of several serial lines > > running at 1 to 200mhz? No straight answer has presented on > > searches > > online. > > > > So here's the question. Is maximum fsb on standard, non-optical > > bus > > still limited to a maximum of a couple of hundred megahertz, or did > > something happen in the last decade or two that changed things > > dramatically? I understand, at least think I do, that these > > ridiculously high frequency claims would not survive capacitance > > issues > > and RFI issues. When my brother claimed a 3.2ghz bus speed for his > > machine I just told him that was wrong, impossible for practical > > purposes, that it had to be an aggregate figure, a 'Pentium rating' > > sort of number rather than the actual clock speed. I envision > > switching bus tech akin to present networking, paralleled to > > sidestep > > the limit while keeping pin and trace counts low.....? Something > > like > > the PCIe 'lane' scheme in present use? This is surmise based on my > > own > > experience. > > > > When I was current, the way out of this limitation was fiber-optics > > for > > the bus. This was used in supercomputing and allowed interconnects > > of > > longer length at ridiculous speeds. > > > > Thanks for allowing me to entertain this question. Though it is > > not > > specifically a classic computer question, it does relate to > > development > > and history. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Technoid Mutant (Jeff Worley) > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 21:45:39 -0800 > From: Fritz Mueller > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > Message-ID: <52B95127-1712-4E7E-AF23-879C42FD7F1D at fritzm.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > > On Jan 5, 2019, at 9:17 PM, Tony Duell > > wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 12:45 AM Fritz Mueller via cctalk > > > > > Easy enough experiment to try; would need to re-jumper the G740 > > > disk selection flip chip in the RK11-C too, I guess? > > > > No. One difference between the RK11-C and RK11-D is how it does > > drive selects. > > ... The drive is always jumpered for 0,1,2,3. > > Hi Tony, > > I?m speaking of the G740 at C13 on the RK11-C backplane, appearing on > sheet RK11-C-06 in the engineering drawings and described in the last > paragraph of section 3.2.5 in the RK11-C manual? > > On my RK11-C, this is jumpered to enable only drives 0 and 1; all > other jumpers are unpopulated. > > --FritzM. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 05:51:18 +0000 > From: Tony Duell > To: Fritz Mueller , "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > Message-ID: > < > CAHkUCCwiheajcd31QFD6YMEQVVDk8qM98arTz9RTqy5pPMCmDA at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 5:45 AM Fritz Mueller via cctalk > wrote: > > > I?m speaking of the G740 at C13 on the RK11-C backplane, appearing > > on sheet RK11-C-06 in the engineering drawings and described in the > > last paragraph of section 3.2.5 in the RK11-C manual? > > > > On my RK11-C, this is jumpered to enable only drives 0 and 1; all > > other jumpers are unpopulated. > > Ooops... > > Yes, you do have to fit the jumper there. Actually, is there a good > reason not to fit all > jumpers on that board? > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 24 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 21:58:48 -0800 > From: Fritz Mueller > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > On Jan 5, 2019, at 9:51 PM, Tony Duell > > wrote: > > > > Actually, is there a good reason not to fit all jumpers on that > > board? > > Looking at it, I was just wondering the same thing! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 25 > Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 01:53:34 -0500 > From: devin davison > To: wrcooke at wrcooke.net, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts" > Subject: Re: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo > Message-ID: > < > CAOpB=UM9O-iJHzRjfgo805+qJ52OzjPPGmH1O=cyH9yq380PmQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I have a stockpile of them. Will get you pictures tomorrow. > > On Sat, Jan 5, 2019, 11:59 PM Will Cooke via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > On January 5, 2019 at 8:42 PM drlegendre via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > I'm interested in finding a 386 or slow 486 machine or moboj ust > > > for > > > playing DOS games. Does anyone have such a thing sitting around, > > > looking > > > for a home? > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > I have a couple of 386sx motherboards with I think 1MB ram. I > > thought I > > had a full 386 board with 8MB ram but I can't seem to find > > it. Would one > > of those work for you? > > > > Will > > > > > > "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise." -- Charlie Daniels > > > > > > "The names of global variables should start with // " -- > > https://isocpp.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 26 > Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 09:08:03 -0500 > From: Bob Smith > To: Dr Iain Maoileoin , "General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? > HELP > Message-ID: > < > CAHtNYbW0GBXV+UPRCwGMZzCnvMNpLCiF5LkG6wez_65w3YxMSQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > https://hapoc2015.sciencesconf.org/file/176702 > > gives a Little more history on Soviet copies of computers. > The timing of the production of the Capatob 2 seems to make it a > PDP8/L clone, not an M. What is called the 8 is really based on the > 5, > used 6-bit bytes, 12 bit words, and was Octal based - memory was the > most expensive part of the system at least through the early 70s, and > thus 12 bit words for double precision, 24bits, was a reasonable > approach for a scientific computer. > bb > > On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 1:37 PM Dr Iain Maoileoin via cctalk > wrote: > > Off topic, but looking for help and/or wisdom. > > > > If you visit https://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/saratov < > > https://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/saratov>/ < > > https://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/> you will see some photos and wire- > > lists of work that I have started on the front panel of a Capatob > > 2. > > > > I plan to get the switches and lights running on a blinkenbone > > board with a PDP8 emulation behind it. (I already have an PDP11/70 > > front-panel running on the same infrastructure) > > > > I have been struggling for over a year to get much info about this > > saratov computer (circuit diagrams etc). So I have started the > > reverse engineering on the panel. > > > > Does anybody know anything about this computer? online or offline > > it would be much appreciated. > > > > Iain > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 27 > Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 10:42:15 -0700 > From: Grant Taylor > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? > HELP > Message-ID: > < > aec7d8ba-4356-8f6f-9bfe-16ac4932cbc0 at spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 1/6/19 7:08 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > What is called the 8 is really based on the 5, used 6-bit bytes, 12 > > bit > > words, and was Octal based > > Is "byte" the correct term for 6-bits? I thought a "byte" had > always > been 8-bits. But I started paying attention in the '90s, so I missed > a lot. > > I would have blindly substituted "word" in place of "byte" except > for > the fact that you subsequently say "12-bit words". I don't know if > "words" is parallel on purpose, as in representing a quantity of two > 6-bit word. > > Will someone please explain what I'm missing that transpired before > I > started paying attention in the '90s? > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jan 6 12:36:41 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 12:36:41 -0600 Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) In-Reply-To: <1651425f-f406-205d-5284-1e6fd1d7c00a@sydex.com> References: <1274423412.13373999.1546662154255.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1274423412.13373999.1546662154255@mail.yahoo.com> <1651425f-f406-205d-5284-1e6fd1d7c00a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20190106184854.E840D273DF@mx1.ezwind.net> At 12:10 PM 1/5/2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >Okay, I think I found the reference to it. > >It turns out that it was a high-school student's project entered in the >"Fourth Annual Computer Programming Contest for Grades 7 to 12'. To quote: > >"The 1966 winner was William J. Elliott, a 12th grade student at West >High School in Minneapolis. Clearly we should track him down. How many 70-year-old William J. Elliots could there be? - John From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 12:54:44 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:54:44 -0500 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP In-Reply-To: <20190106184345.2F9AA18C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190106184345.2F9AA18C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > And then the PDP-11 put the nail in that coffin (and in 1980, there were more > PDP-11's, world-wide, than any other kind of computer). I bet the guys at Zilog might have something to talk to you about. -- Will From technoid6502 at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 12:59:10 2019 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 13:59:10 -0500 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 2019-01-05 at 12:00 -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs I was a tech in the 90's when the original Pentium FDIV bug was storming. The issue was confined to the integrated floating point portion of the processor and was therefore rarely an issue as the vast majority of software did not use the mathco portion of the chip. Only a handful of applications and relative handful of users were affected. This became Intel's position on the matter and they hoped the issue would just die down to those handful whom they would provide new chips. The issue did not die down and the bad press forced the decision to replace ALL pentiums affected. Only a relative few were actually replaced in the home and small business arena. A software patch was a common solution to the problem. It masssaged input to the FDIV instruction to produce a corrected result and worked pretty well as I recall. At the time of the storm, the Pentium was still pretty new and very expensive. Most folks were getting along with AMD k5 and k6 processors. I WAS. I went from k6 to Celeron. Best Jeff From technoid6502 at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 13:03:41 2019 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 14:03:41 -0500 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14c33755b039b5db6ccf57921d0b5287cc3ab1b5.camel@gmail.com> What defines a 'modern processor'. The term is pretty slippery. The Crusoe used microcode to emulate x86 and could therefore emulate any processor architecture Transmeta wanted. Crusoe was a pioneer in the low power market, the processor dynamically clocked itself in very small steps depending on need. This is a familiar feature now but was pretty revolutionary for the time. Interestingly, Linux Torvalds was in on the design and was on the board of Transmeta. A fair number were sold to Sony for their VIAO series of notebooks. Does Crusoe qualify as a 'modern' processor? In my book yes, but I have a very old book.. :0 best, Jeff From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jan 6 13:08:06 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 12:08:06 -0700 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP In-Reply-To: <8DE380B6-8B44-4114-90BB-073D82A7B7C3@shiresoft.com> References: <20190106181900.A0CC718C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8DE380B6-8B44-4114-90BB-073D82A7B7C3@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4d02e359-f4d0-f9d2-c4d4-1cf7b635fc18@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/6/19 11:25 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > I think it?s also telling that the IETF uses the term octet in all of > the specifications to refer to 8-bit sized data. As ?byte? (from > older machines) could be anything and is thus somewhat ambiguous. > > It *may* have been the IBM 360 that started the trend of Byte == 8-bits > as the 360?s memory (in IBM?s terms) was byte addressable and the > instructions for accessing them were ?byte? instructions (as opposed > to half-word and word instructions). Thank you for the clarification. My take away is that before some nebulous point in time (circa IBM's 360) a "byte" could be a number of different bits, depending on the computer being discussed. Conversely, after said nebulous point in time a byte was standardized on 8-bits. Is that fair and accurate enough? - I'm wanting to validate the patch before I apply it to my mental model of things. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 13:08:22 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:08:22 -0800 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 10:59 AM Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, 2019-01-05 at 12:00 -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs > > I was a tech in the 90's when the original Pentium FDIV bug was > storming. The issue was confined to the integrated floating point > portion of the processor and was therefore rarely an issue as the vast > majority of software did not use the mathco portion of the chip. Only > a handful of applications and relative handful of users were affected. > This became Intel's position on the matter and they hoped the issue > would just die down to those handful whom they would provide new chips. > > The issue did not die down and the bad press forced the decision to > replace ALL pentiums affected. Only a relative few were actually > replaced in the home and small business arena. A software patch was a > common solution to the problem. It masssaged input to the FDIV > instruction to produce a corrected result and worked pretty well as I > recall. > > At the time of the storm, the Pentium was still pretty new and very > expensive. Most folks were getting along with AMD k5 and k6 > processors. I WAS. I went from k6 to Celeron. > That's a good trick, given that the K5 came out in 1996 and the K6 in 1997, the FDIV issue blew up in late 1994. - Josh > > Best > > Jeff > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jan 6 13:09:38 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 12:09:38 -0700 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2210161f-bb4e-8b69-18ff-eb221c318793@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/6/19 11:59 AM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > I was a tech in the 90's when the original Pentium FDIV bug was storming. > The issue was confined to the integrated floating point portion of the > processor and was therefore rarely an issue as the vast majority of > software did not use the mathco portion of the chip. Only a handful of > applications and relative handful of users were affected. This became > Intel's position on the matter and they hoped the issue would just die > down to those handful whom they would provide new chips. > > The issue did not die down and the bad press forced the decision to > replace ALL pentiums affected. Only a relative few were actually replaced > in the home and small business arena. A software patch was a common > solution to the problem. It masssaged input to the FDIV instruction to > produce a corrected result and worked pretty well as I recall. I suspect that Intel is longing for the Pentium FDIV bug days after the speculative execution issues that have surfaced (and gained traction) in 2018. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From technoid6502 at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 13:18:51 2019 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 14:18:51 -0500 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> On Sun, 2019-01-06 at 11:08 -0800, Josh Dersch wrote: > That's a good trick, given that the K5 came out in 1996 and the K6 in > 1997, the FDIV issue blew up in late 1994. Memory is like that. The FDIV bug didn't go away because it was announced, the chips stayed on desktops and our diagnostic software frequently contained the FDIV patch to deal with such, for the rest of the decade. I went from a 486dlc-40 to a 4x86 dx2 80 to a k5 133 to a k6 to a k6 to a k6 to a celeron. Amd kept releasing faster k6's. My last, in the late 90's, was IIRC a 333mhz model. I was a tech in Miami at the time FDIV happened, working for Victors DataSouth and it's Novell networks. My servers ran 486's but we sold Pentiums and it was a real hassle to have to field all those beefs from customers whose EXPENSIVE processors couldn't divide accurately. In 95' I went to work in Asheville, NC for Uptime Computer Services and saw a bunch of machines cross my desk which needed the software patch. In 2000 I was working with Bits and Bytes computer services. Best, Jeff From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 13:24:35 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 14:24:35 -0500 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP In-Reply-To: <20190106181900.A0CC718C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190106181900.A0CC718C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <11b916e4-ef19-980f-8c9f-8ba2fa62d095@gmail.com> On 01/06/2019 01:19 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Grant Taylor > > > Is "byte" the correct term for 6-bits? I thought a "byte" had always > > been 8-bits. > > I don't claim wide familiary with architectural jargon from the early days, > but the PDP-10 at least (I don't know about other prominent 36-bit machines > such as the IBM 7094/etc, and the GE 635/645) supported 'bytes' of any size, > with 'byte pointers' used in a couple of instructions which could extract and > deposit 'bytes' from a word; the pointers specified the starting bit, and the > width of the 'byte'. These were used for both SIXBIT (an early character > encoding), and ASCII (7-bit bytes, 5 per word, with one bit left over). As far as what other systems supported especially the 7094 and GE, that is already out of context as the focus was a Russian PDP-8 clone.? Any other machines are then thread contamination or worse. In the early days a byte was the smallest recognized group of bits for that system and in some case its 9 bits, 6bits as they were even divisible segments of the machine word.? This feature was the bane of programmers as everyone had a different idea of what it was and it was poison to portability. For PDP-8 and friends it was 6 bits and was basically a halfword, also used as stated for 6bit subset of ASCII (uppercase, TTY codes).? Most of the 8 series had the bit mapped instructions (DEC called the microcoded) for doing BSW, byte swap,? swap the lower half of the ACC with the upper half.? Very handy for doing character IO. > > I would have blindly substituted "word" in place of "byte" except for > > the fact that you subsequently say "12-bit words". I don't know if > > "words" is parallel on purpose, as in representing a quantity of two > > 6-bit word. > > I think 'word' was usually used to describe the instruction size (although > some machines also supported 'half-word' instructions), and also the > machine's 'ordinary' length - e.g. for the accumulator(s), the quantum of > data transfer to/from memory, etc. Not necessarily memory addresses, mind - > on the PDP-10, those were 18 bits (i.e. half-word) - although the smallest > thing _named_ by a memory addresses was usually a word. > > Noel The PDP-8 and 12bit relations the instruction word and basic architecture was 12bit word. There were no instructions that were a half word in length or other fragmentations.? The machine was fairly simple and all the speculated concepts were well outside the design of the PDP-5/8 family.?? For all of those the instruction fetch, memory reads and write were always words of 12bits.?? I'd expect a Russian PDP-8 clone to be the same.?? After all DEC did widely gave out the data books with nearly everything but schematics.? The value of copying is software is also copied.? It happened here with the DCC-112 a PDP-8e functional clone. While its possible to use half word ram with reconstruction the hardware cost is high (registers to store the pieces) and it would take more to do that than whole 12bit words. Any time you look at old machine especially pre-IC registers were costly and only done as necessity dictated as a single bit flipflop was likely 4 transistors (plus diodes and other components) or more to implement never minding gating.? Minor history and thread relative drift...? The only reason people didn't build their own PDP-8 in the early 70s was CORE.? It was the one part a early personal computer (meaning personally owned then)? was difficulty to duplicate and expensive outright buy.? Trying to make "random" core planes that were available work was very difficult due to lack of data, critical timing, and the often minimal bench (and costly) test equipment. ? The minimum gear for seeing the timing was a Tek-516 and that was $1169(1969$). ? Semiconductor ram was either a few bits (4x4) or 1101 (three voltage 256x1) at about 8$ in 1972 dollars.? That made the parts for a 256x12 a weeks pay at that time (pre-8008) and a 4Kx12 with parts was nearly that of a new truck (2100$)!. ? Compared the basic logic of the 8e (only three boards of SSI TTL) core/ram was the show stopper.? About 7 years later a 8K8 S100 ram was about? (early 1979) 100$, by 1980 64kx8 was 100$.?? Moore's law was being felt. The small beauty of being there...?? FYI back then (1972) a 7400 was about 25 cents and 7483 adder was maybe $1.25.? Least that's what I paid. Allison From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 13:29:54 2019 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 14:29:54 -0500 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8 In-Reply-To: <58803683a7f752f081f6d7b01a30772d1f44a076.camel@gmail.com> References: <58803683a7f752f081f6d7b01a30772d1f44a076.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry, thanks for playing but Actually half of a WORD is a BYTE, whatever the numerical length is. Ready for this,half of a BYTE is a NIBBLE. In fact, in common usage, word has become synonymous with 16 bits, much like byte has with 8 bits. What's the difference between a word and byte? - Stack Overflow https://stackoverflow.com/questions/.../whats-the-difference-between-a-word-and-byte Feedback About this result On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 1:48 PM Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, 2019-01-06 at 12:00 -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Re: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8 > > Nothing has changed as regards the number of bits in a byte, a nybble > is 4 bits, 8 to the byte, and x to the word - this last varies widely > depending on architecture. > > Still, in Spirit, on an octal processor a whole number is a six bit > 'byte', so the term is appropriate, especially to avoid confusion with > the word size of two six bit 'bytes'. > > Fun. > > Jeff > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 6 13:31:25 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:31:25 +0000 Subject: OT? Upper limits of FSB In-Reply-To: <1B9BC890-8E94-4184-A6F8-6AAD35F5F924@gmail.com> References: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com>, <1B9BC890-8E94-4184-A6F8-6AAD35F5F924@gmail.com> Message-ID: Probably the factor that most think limits thing is the turn-around time. If they were limited to one byte request and wait for that data to return, the limits of wires would be a wall. Today's serial RAMs send a burts of data rather than a word or byte at a time. These blocks of data can use multiple serial lanes at one time where the data bits aren't even exactly arriving at the same time. There are FIFOs and parallelizers that bring things back together. The latency of the first fetch is slower than it used to be for traditional fetches but after that things are quite quick. Surprisingly, this is actually good for older languages like Forth that are fugal with RAM. Entire applications ( less data in some cases ) can be in the CPU's cache for immediate use. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Curious Marc via cctalk Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2019 9:40 PM To: Jeffrey S. Worley; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: OT? Upper limits of FSB Interconnects at 28Gb/s/lane have been out for a while now, supported by quite a few chips. 56Gb/s PAM4 is around the corner, and we run 100Gb/s in the lab right now. Just sayin? ;-). That said, we throw in about every equalization trick we know of, PCB materials are getting quite exotic and connectors are pretty interesting. We have to hand hold our customers to design their interconnect traces and connector breakouts. And you can?t go too far, with increasing reliance on micro-twinax or on-board optics for longer distances and backplanes. Marc > On Jan 4, 2019, at 11:02 PM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > > Apropos of nothing, I've been confuse for some time regarding maximum > clock rates for local bus. > > My admittedly old information, which comes from the 3rd ed. of "High > Performance Computer Architecture", a course I audited, indicates a > maximum speed on the order of 1ghz for very very short trace lengths. > > Late model computers boast multi-hundred to multi gigahertz fsb's. Am > I wrong in thinking this is an aggregate of several serial lines > running at 1 to 200mhz? No straight answer has presented on searches > online. > > So here's the question. Is maximum fsb on standard, non-optical bus > still limited to a maximum of a couple of hundred megahertz, or did > something happen in the last decade or two that changed things > dramatically? I understand, at least think I do, that these > ridiculously high frequency claims would not survive capacitance issues > and RFI issues. When my brother claimed a 3.2ghz bus speed for his > machine I just told him that was wrong, impossible for practical > purposes, that it had to be an aggregate figure, a 'Pentium rating' > sort of number rather than the actual clock speed. I envision > switching bus tech akin to present networking, paralleled to sidestep > the limit while keeping pin and trace counts low.....? Something like > the PCIe 'lane' scheme in present use? This is surmise based on my own > experience. > > When I was current, the way out of this limitation was fiber-optics for > the bus. This was used in supercomputing and allowed interconnects of > longer length at ridiculous speeds. > > Thanks for allowing me to entertain this question. Though it is not > specifically a classic computer question, it does relate to development > and history. > > > > Best, > > Technoid Mutant (Jeff Worley) > > > > > From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 13:35:08 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 14:35:08 -0500 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP In-Reply-To: <4d02e359-f4d0-f9d2-c4d4-1cf7b635fc18@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20190106181900.A0CC718C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8DE380B6-8B44-4114-90BB-073D82A7B7C3@shiresoft.com> <4d02e359-f4d0-f9d2-c4d4-1cf7b635fc18@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 01/06/2019 02:08 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 1/6/19 11:25 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: >> I think it?s also telling that the IETF uses the term octet in all of >> the specifications to refer to 8-bit sized data.? As ?byte? (from >> older machines) could be anything and is thus somewhat ambiguous. >> >> It *may* have been the IBM 360 that started the trend of Byte == >> 8-bits as the 360?s memory (in IBM?s terms) was byte addressable and >> the instructions for accessing them were ?byte? instructions (as >> opposed to half-word and word instructions). > Yes it was. Machines around them and in that time frame (mainframe) were 12, 18, 36, 60 bit words. The big break was mid 1970s with micros first 8008, 8080, 6800 and bigger machines like PDP11 (did byte word reads and writes) and TI990. The emergence of VAX and other 32bit machines made 8bit common as terminal IO was starting to standardize. > Thank you for the clarification. > > My take away is that before some nebulous point in time (circa IBM's > 360) a "byte" could be a number of different bits, depending on the > computer being discussed.? Conversely, after said nebulous point in > time a byte was standardized on 8-bits. > > Is that fair and accurate enough?? -? I'm wanting to validate the > patch before I apply it to my mental model of things.? ;- There is no hard before and after as systems like DEC10 and other persisted for a while.? Also part of it was IO codes for the EBDIC, Flexowriter, ASr33 (8level vs Baudot), and CRT terminals emerging with mostly IBM or ANSI. I am somewhat DEC and personal computer (pre IBM PC) centric on this as they were he machines I got to see and work with that were not in rooms with glass and white coated specialists. Allison From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 13:34:13 2019 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 14:34:13 -0500 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8 In-Reply-To: References: <58803683a7f752f081f6d7b01a30772d1f44a076.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: With the advent of wide spread introduction of 16 bit machines the definition of a byte as an 8 bit unit was accepted because ASCII supported character sets for multiple languages, before the 8bit standard there were 6 bit, 7 bit variations of he character sets. Gee, what were teletypes, like the model 15, 19, 28, oh yeah 5 level or 5 bit..with no parity. On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 2:29 PM Bob Smith wrote: > > Sorry, thanks for playing but > Actually half of a WORD is a BYTE, whatever the numerical length is. > Ready for this,half of a BYTE is a NIBBLE. In fact, in common usage, > word has become synonymous with 16 bits, much like byte has with 8 > bits. > What's the difference between a word and byte? - Stack Overflow > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/.../whats-the-difference-between-a-word-and-byte > Feedback > About this result > > On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 1:48 PM Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On Sun, 2019-01-06 at 12:00 -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > Re: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8 > > > > Nothing has changed as regards the number of bits in a byte, a nybble > > is 4 bits, 8 to the byte, and x to the word - this last varies widely > > depending on architecture. > > > > Still, in Spirit, on an octal processor a whole number is a six bit > > 'byte', so the term is appropriate, especially to avoid confusion with > > the word size of two six bit 'bytes'. > > > > Fun. > > > > Jeff > > From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 13:41:58 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 14:41:58 -0500 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP In-Reply-To: References: <20190106184345.2F9AA18C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6e0d5efc-a163-232f-01c8-79e9885c5572@gmail.com> On 01/06/2019 01:54 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> And then the PDP-11 put the nail in that coffin (and in 1980, there were more >> PDP-11's, world-wide, than any other kind of computer). > I bet the guys at Zilog might have something to talk to you about. > > -- > Will And Intel!? 8008 and 8080 was a byte machine as was 8085, z80,? 8088, 6800, 6502, and a long list to follow. The PDP-11 was unique that it was 8/16 bit in that memory (and by default IO) supported both byte and word reads and write.?? Instructions were 16bit but data was byte word.?? There were more? Z80 based machines (TRS-80 alone exceeded 250,000) than PDP-11. History guys, we are about history! Allison From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jan 6 13:46:13 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 14:46:13 -0500 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8 In-Reply-To: References: <58803683a7f752f081f6d7b01a30772d1f44a076.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <111A5B7C-7839-410C-A534-21924E438728@comcast.net> > On Jan 6, 2019, at 2:34 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > With the advent of wide spread introduction of 16 bit machines the > definition of a byte as an 8 bit unit was accepted because ASCII > supported character sets for multiple languages, before the 8bit > standard there were 6 bit, 7 bit variations of he character sets. > Gee, what were teletypes, like the model 15, 19, 28, oh yeah 5 level > or 5 bit..with no parity. I think some of this discussion suffers from not going far enough back in history. "Byte" was a term used a great deal in the IBM/360 series, where it meant 8 bits. Similarly "halfword" (16 bits). But as was pointed out, mainframes in that era had lots of different word sizes: 27, 32, 36, 48, 60... Some of them (perhaps not all) also used the term "byte" to mean something different. In the PDP-10, it has a well defined meaning: any part of a word, as operated on by the "byte" instructions -- which the VAX called "bit field instructions". 6 and 9 bit sizes were common for characters, and "byte" without further detail could have meant any of those. In the CDC 6000 series, characters were 6 or 12 bits, and either of those could be "byte". "Nybble" is as far as I can tell a geek joke term, rather than a widely used standard term. "Halfword" is 16 bits on IBM 360 and VAX, 18 on PDP-10, and unused on CDC 6000. Then there are other subdivisions with uncommon terms, like "parcel" (15 bits, CDC 6000 series, the unit used by the instruction issue path). ASCII was originally a 7 bit code. There were other 7 bit codes at that time, like the many variations of Flexowriter codes; 6 bit codes (found in typesetting systems and related stuff such as news wire service data feeds), and 5 bit codes (Telex codes, again in many variations). paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 6 15:00:50 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:00:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Pentiums and it was a real hassle to have to field all those beefs from > customers whose EXPENSIVE processors couldn't divide accurately. no It was a real hassle to have to field all those beefs from customers who had a PERCEPTION that their expensive processors Wouldn't divide accurately. There was a serious problem with public perception, and further fueled by talk show comedians, that all bank statements would be wrong, that missiles would hit the wrong cities, that airplanes couldn't find the right airport, . . . AND that all arithmetic in all computers is done with floating point. Few people (but most are right here) can recite PI to enough digits to reach the level of inaccuracy. And those who believe that PI is exactly 22/7 are unaffected by FDIV. (YES, some schools do still teach that!) Intel needed to do much better on their PR. There was a public perception that Intel said that they would only replace them for people who could PROVE that their work was directly affected. Instead, Intel needed to make it CLEAR that "ALL will be replaced, at no charge. But, we need a little time to make a few more, SO, we will start by replacing those for which the work is directly affected, and replace ALL of them as quickly as more are made." MOST owners would not hit the error during the life of the machine. Most power lUsers would have already upgraded to a newer machine (those who were screaming the loudest, "upgrade" to a newer machine several times a year, even though they don't replace their car EVERY year). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com 3.14159265358979 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 6 15:54:08 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 14:54:08 -0700 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP In-Reply-To: <11b916e4-ef19-980f-8c9f-8ba2fa62d095@gmail.com> References: <20190106181900.A0CC718C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <11b916e4-ef19-980f-8c9f-8ba2fa62d095@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/6/2019 12:24 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > The small beauty of being there...?? FYI back then (1972) a 7400 was > about 25 cents > and 7483 adder was maybe $1.25.? Least that's what I paid. Checks my favorite supplier. $1.25 for 7400 and $4.00 for a 7483. It has gone up in price. > Allison > Ben. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 16:36:49 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 16:36:49 -0600 Subject: IDOL/VS Manual Message-ID: I am preparing to scan this manual on the IDOL/VS database system, which was initially a product of "Systems Specialties" but was later purchased by MAI for their Basic Four systems. I can't find any documentation on this product on Bitsavers or anywhere else. If anyone is aware of this manual online, please let me know. And if anyone wants the original once it's scanned, I'll be happy to send it for the cost of postage from 60070. J From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 16:47:47 2019 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 16:47:47 -0600 Subject: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo In-Reply-To: References: <2039907214.341781.1546743741252@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: Very cool, thanks! I'll keep an eye out for the photos. On Sun, Jan 6, 2019, 12:53 AM devin davison via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > I have a stockpile of them. Will get you pictures tomorrow. > > On Sat, Jan 5, 2019, 11:59 PM Will Cooke via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > On January 5, 2019 at 8:42 PM drlegendre via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I'm interested in finding a 386 or slow 486 machine or moboj ust for > > > playing DOS games. Does anyone have such a thing sitting around, > looking > > > for a home? > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > I have a couple of 386sx motherboards with I think 1MB ram. I thought I > > had a full 386 board with 8MB ram but I can't seem to find it. Would one > > of those work for you? > > > > Will > > > > > > "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise." -- Charlie Daniels > > > > > > "The names of global variables should start with // " -- > > https://isocpp.org > > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 16:53:13 2019 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 16:53:13 -0600 Subject: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo In-Reply-To: References: <2039907214.341781.1546743741252@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: Devin, Do you have boards or complete machines? Very interested to see some pics. Thanks for your help, Bill On Sun, Jan 6, 2019, 12:53 AM devin davison via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > I have a stockpile of them. Will get you pictures tomorrow. > > On Sat, Jan 5, 2019, 11:59 PM Will Cooke via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > On January 5, 2019 at 8:42 PM drlegendre via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I'm interested in finding a 386 or slow 486 machine or moboj ust for > > > playing DOS games. Does anyone have such a thing sitting around, > looking > > > for a home? > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > I have a couple of 386sx motherboards with I think 1MB ram. I thought I > > had a full 386 board with 8MB ram but I can't seem to find it. Would one > > of those work for you? > > > > Will > > > > > > "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise." -- Charlie Daniels > > > > > > "The names of global variables should start with // " -- > > https://isocpp.org > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 6 16:56:25 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 17:56:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP Message-ID: <20190106225625.085F018C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Donzelli >> in 1980, there were more PDP-11's, world-wide, than any other kind of >> computer. > I bet the guys at Zilog might have something to talk to you about. I was quoting my memory of a DEC ad in the WSJ, which now that I go check, says the -11 was "the best-selling computer in the world" (the ad was in 1980). There are a number of possible explanations as to why it makes this claim: - some marketing person made it up - they were only counting things that were general-purpose (i.e. came with mass storage and compilers) - they didn't consider micros as "computers" (many were used in things like printers, etc, and were not usable as general-purpose computers) Etc, etc. Noel From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 17:00:00 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:00:00 -0500 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP In-Reply-To: <20190106225625.085F018C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190106225625.085F018C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > - some marketing person made it up You believed them? Have your head examined. > - they were only counting things that were general-purpose (i.e. came with > mass storage and compilers) Conditions, conditions. > - they didn't consider micros as "computers" (many were used in things like > printers, etc, and were not usable as general-purpose computers) Well, that is DECish, ignoring the coming tsunami of micros. Wow, did they pay the price... -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 17:21:09 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:21:09 -0500 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8 In-Reply-To: References: <58803683a7f752f081f6d7b01a30772d1f44a076.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: > With the advent of wide spread introduction of 16 bit machines the > definition of a byte as an 8 bit unit was accepted because ASCII > supported character sets for multiple languages, before the 8bit > standard there were 6 bit, 7 bit variations of he character sets. > Gee, what were teletypes, like the model 15, 19, 28, oh yeah 5 level > or 5 bit..with no parity. Byte was more or less "set in stone" in the mid 1960s, with the success of the IBM System/360. During the internal war at IBM to determine whether the S/360 was going to be a 6 bit based machine or an 8 bit based machine, a study showed that a huge majority of the stored digital data in the world was better suited to 8 bits (mainly because of BCD in the financial industry). It had nothing to do with terminal communications, as there just was not much of that back then. When the S/360 turned into the success it was, maybe 1966 or so, it turned into an eight bit byte world. People on this list keep forgetting just how gigantic IBM was back then, and how much influence it had, good or bad. -- Will From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 6 17:45:04 2019 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 23:45:04 +0000 Subject: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo In-Reply-To: References: <2039907214.341781.1546743741252@email.ionos.com> , Message-ID: We use a website called 'nextdoor' which is a neighborhood community exchange. I posted a message asking for the same, old PC's. In a coupe of days I picked up 5 of them for free. Two were VERY unique, belonging to a LA area movie editor. They came with high end Matrox frame grabber/video cards for component video in/out and production. Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of drlegendre via cctalk Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2019 2:53 PM To: Devin; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo Devin, Do you have boards or complete machines? Very interested to see some pics. Thanks for your help, Bill On Sun, Jan 6, 2019, 12:53 AM devin davison via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > I have a stockpile of them. Will get you pictures tomorrow. > > On Sat, Jan 5, 2019, 11:59 PM Will Cooke via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > On January 5, 2019 at 8:42 PM drlegendre via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I'm interested in finding a 386 or slow 486 machine or moboj ust for > > > playing DOS games. Does anyone have such a thing sitting around, > looking > > > for a home? > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > I have a couple of 386sx motherboards with I think 1MB ram. I thought I > > had a full 386 board with 8MB ram but I can't seem to find it. Would one > > of those work for you? > > > > Will > > > > > > "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise." -- Charlie Daniels > > > > > > "The names of global variables should start with // " -- > > https://isocpp.org > > > From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Jan 6 19:01:21 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 17:01:21 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> References: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <838F1EA9-5D69-4FE2-BDD1-83D623EB5AE4@fritzm.org> > On Jan 5, 2019, at 12:58 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > > I did get some MACRO CRC-16 sub-routines coded up last night while waiting for various transfers, so I think I?ll go ahead and finish up the standalone CRC dumper utility today. > > Lastly, a 5V-tolerant USB FIFO breakout board is supposed to show up in the mails today. If that works out as simply as I hope to interface with a DR11-C, I should have a much better way to blast bits on and off the machine soon. Okay, finished up the standalone CRC utility, and verified (to very long odds) byte identical contents between reading the physical pack on the machine and reading the downloaded pack under SIMH. And that image doesn?t boot on real HW, but works under SIMH. I?ll post the CRC utility code up on my '11/45 project blog (http://fritzm.github.io/category/pdp-11.html) when I do a write-up later tonight, in case anybody else is interested in it. So, I?m left with something probably odd with my HW tripping up RSTS but not being caught by MAINDECs :-( I think I?ll switch gears for a bit and work on the USB FIFO to DR11-C hack, since that will help make further experimentation much faster in general. cheers, --FritzM. From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Jan 6 19:06:21 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 17:06:21 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <838F1EA9-5D69-4FE2-BDD1-83D623EB5AE4@fritzm.org> References: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> <838F1EA9-5D69-4FE2-BDD1-83D623EB5AE4@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <6A4A9A9D-985F-4C19-A13A-78C7EF4213C2@fritzm.org> Oh, one last thing: if anybody else out there has a real working '11/45 + RK05 and wants to try this RSTS image, let me know, and I?ll send you a copy (all 2.5MB of it, hah). It?d be interesting to see if this a really just limited to my machine? --FritzM. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jan 6 19:58:42 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:58:42 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <838F1EA9-5D69-4FE2-BDD1-83D623EB5AE4@fritzm.org> References: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> <838F1EA9-5D69-4FE2-BDD1-83D623EB5AE4@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <24676122-42CC-4914-9B75-E2CF19617E92@comcast.net> > On Jan 6, 2019, at 8:01 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jan 5, 2019, at 12:58 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: >> >> I did get some MACRO CRC-16 sub-routines coded up last night while waiting for various transfers, so I think I?ll go ahead and finish up the standalone CRC dumper utility today. >> >> Lastly, a 5V-tolerant USB FIFO breakout board is supposed to show up in the mails today. If that works out as simply as I hope to interface with a DR11-C, I should have a much better way to blast bits on and off the machine soon. > > Okay, finished up the standalone CRC utility, and verified (to very long odds) byte identical contents between reading the physical pack on the machine and reading the downloaded pack under SIMH. And that image doesn?t boot on real HW, but works under SIMH. Hm. Can you read data back from the RK05 pack? I'd have to refresh my memory on how but it's clearly possible to force a crash dump. That would allow us to dig into exactly what went wrong, provided you can read the dump file (or the whole disk). paul From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jan 6 20:10:41 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 20:10:41 -0600 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8 In-Reply-To: References: <58803683a7f752f081f6d7b01a30772d1f44a076.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C32B521.9070506@pico-systems.com> On 01/06/2019 01:29 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > Sorry, thanks for playing but > Actually half of a WORD is a BYTE, whatever the numerical length is. > Ready for this,half of a BYTE is a NIBBLE. Well, no. On 32-bit machines such as IBM 360, VAX, etc. half a 32-bit word is a halfword, the fullword is equal to FOUR bytes. On a 360/65 and above, the memory word was 64 bits, or a double-word, so half that was a fullword. Just makes it more confusing. Jon From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Jan 6 20:34:18 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:34:18 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <24676122-42CC-4914-9B75-E2CF19617E92@comcast.net> References: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> <838F1EA9-5D69-4FE2-BDD1-83D623EB5AE4@fritzm.org> <24676122-42CC-4914-9B75-E2CF19617E92@comcast.net> Message-ID: <84DE8CF8-2DF1-4B32-A4B9-9DCA824F3F92@fritzm.org> Hi Paul, > On Jan 6, 2019, at 5:58 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Hm. Can you read data back from the RK05 pack? I'd have to refresh my memory on how but it's clearly possible to force a crash dump. That would allow us to dig into exactly what went wrong, provided you can read the dump file (or the whole disk). Yes, I can read back, either by sector or the whole pack. Do let me know if you find a way to trigger a crash dump, and I?ll give it a go! thanks, --FritzM. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jan 6 22:28:44 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:28:44 -0800 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8 In-Reply-To: <5C32B521.9070506@pico-systems.com> References: <58803683a7f752f081f6d7b01a30772d1f44a076.camel@gmail.com> <5C32B521.9070506@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 6, 2019, at 6:10 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 01/06/2019 01:29 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: >> Sorry, thanks for playing but >> Actually half of a WORD is a BYTE, whatever the numerical length is. >> Ready for this,half of a BYTE is a NIBBLE. > Well, no. On 32-bit machines such as IBM 360, VAX, etc. half a 32-bit word is a halfword, > the fullword is equal to FOUR bytes. On a 360/65 and above, the memory word was 64 bits, or a double-word, so half that was a fullword. Just makes it more confusing. No it doesn?t. The 360/65 was still a 32-bit processor (as defined by the ISA). It makes no difference what the width to memory was. Wider memory is only to improve the bandwidth to memory. That?s like saying the current Intel ixxx CPUs (which are 64-bit ISA) are ?confusing? because the width to memory is 256-bits. TTFN - Guy From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 23:24:11 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 05:24:11 -0000 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8 In-Reply-To: References: <58803683a7f752f081f6d7b01a30772d1f44a076.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <076101d4a649$3a24f130$ae6ed390$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of William Donzelli > via cctalk > Sent: 06 January 2019 23:21 > To: Bob Smith ; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8 > > > With the advent of wide spread introduction of 16 bit machines the > > definition of a byte as an 8 bit unit was accepted because ASCII > > supported character sets for multiple languages, before the 8bit > > standard there were 6 bit, 7 bit variations of he character sets. > > Gee, what were teletypes, like the model 15, 19, 28, oh yeah 5 level > > or 5 bit..with no parity. > > Byte was more or less "set in stone" in the mid 1960s, with the success of the > IBM System/360. During the internal war at IBM to determine whether the > S/360 was going to be a 6 bit based machine or an 8 bit based machine, a > study showed that a huge majority of the stored digital data in the world was > better suited to 8 bits (mainly because of BCD in the financial industry). It had > nothing to do with terminal communications, as there just was not much of > that back then. > When the S/360 turned into the success it was, maybe 1966 or so, it turned > into an eight bit byte world. > > People on this list keep forgetting just how gigantic IBM was back then, and > how much influence it had, good or bad. > > -- > Will I am also pretty sure that prior to S/360 the term "character" was generally used for non 8-bit character machines. I am not familiar with the IBM 70xx series machines but certainly on the 1401 and 1620 the term byte was never used. Also the Honeywell H3200 which was an IBM1401 "clone" (sort of). The only machine I know where a "byte" is not eight bits is the Honeywell L6000 and its siblings These machines had 36 bit works which were originally divided into 6 six bit characters. When it became clear that the world was moving to 8-bit characters they added new instructions that allowed a word to be treated as 4 by 9-bit bytes. I seem to recall that some IBM machines also had facilities to read all 9 bits from a 9-track tape as data so 9-bit bytes but I can't find references. I also feel the use of the term Octet was more marketing to distance ones machines from IBM..... Dave From useddec at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 16:14:07 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 16:14:07 -0600 Subject: Miscellaneous Equipment for free (Mostly DEC) in Lexington KY In-Reply-To: <1737ad3356fa1795aa177b3d5c28ba75@saracom.com> References: <1737ad3356fa1795aa177b3d5c28ba75@saracom.com> Message-ID: Any Uni-bus or PDP8 items? I have plenty of boxes or I would jump on it, but if some one picks them up I have most of the boards. Thanks, Paul On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 2:06 PM keith--- via cctech wrote: > Miscellaneous Equipment for free (Mostly DEC) in Lexington KY. Local > Pick highly preferred. > > I need to empty my storage unit. I have various pieces available for > free, local pickup. > > One thing to note, it has not been stored properly. It has been stored > in a rental storage unit with no heat or cooling. I do not know if any > of the units are still functional and there is no power at the storage > unit to verify the equipment. > > 1) BA23 Chassis. Was a PDP11/23 at some point but there are no cards > or drives. It is in the tower configuration but the front cover is > missing. > > 2) DecStation 3100. Appears complete and in decent condition. > > 3) VT220 terminal. Very yellowed > > 4) A few LK201 keyboards. Not pretty > > 5) VRM17-HA Monitor. 17" monochrome monitor for a Vaxstation. It did > work at one time but see above. Yellowed. > > 6) IBM CRT VGA Monochrome monitor > > 7) Macintosh SE. With Ethernet! Very Yellowed. > > 8) BA213 Chassis. Some corrosion and possible water damage. Back-plane > looks very good. Insulation is deteriorating. This was a Microvax 3500 > at one time until the mice got in. > > Picture are available here: > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/stupido/albums/72157702145168162 > > I may add more equipment to the list as I sort things out. I want to > empty the storage unit by the end of this month. Anything that I can't > or don't want to keep then will go to recycle. > > thanks > > Max > From djg at pdp8online.com Sun Jan 6 19:08:57 2019 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:08:57 -0500 Subject: Decus #8-250 Fast Fourier Transform Message-ID: <20190107010857.GA22820@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Anybody on the list get these tapes? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Decus-8-250-Fast-Fourier-Transform-FFT-Software-on-Paper-Tape-for-PDP-8-/192646534861?hash=item2cdaa0d6cd%3Ag%3A4ukAAOSwjexbjeWx&nma=true&si=pZk7jy9IX%252F2eOztzfa26ClklLrI%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 I missed seeing that auction. From bygg at cafax.se Mon Jan 7 08:20:23 2019 From: bygg at cafax.se (Johnny Eriksson) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 8:20:23 WET Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:00:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: > Few people (but most are right here) can recite PI to enough digits to > reach the level of inaccuracy. And those who believe that PI is exactly > 22/7 are unaffected by FDIV. (YES, some schools do still teach that!) Why remember the digits, when a small program can provide them? +0un qn"E20Un' 0Uh 0uv HK Qn Qq/10Ut Qh+Qt+48Uw Qw-58"E48Uw %v' Qv"N:Qv,1^T' QwUv Qq-(Qt*10)Uh> :Qv,1^T !Can you figure out what this macro does before running it? It was written by Stan Rabinowitz with modifications by Mark Bramhall and appeared as the Macro of the Month in the Nov. 1977 issue of the TECO SIG newsletter, the "Moby Munger". For information on the TECO Special Interest Group, write to Stan at P.O. Box 76, Maynard, Mass. 01754! --Johnny From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 7 05:09:41 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 06:09:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8 Message-ID: <20190107110941.12A2018C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dave Wade > The only machine I know where a "byte" is not eight bits is the > Honeywell L6000 and its siblings I'm not sure why I bother to post to this list, since apparently people don't bother to read my messages. >From the "pdp10 reference handbook", 1970, section 2.3, "Byte Manipulation", page 2-15: "This set of five instructions allows the programmer to pack or unpack bytes of any length from anywhere within a word. ... The byte manipulation instructions have the standard memory reference format, but the effective address E is used to retrieve a pointer, which is used in turn to locate the byte ... The pointer has the format 0 5 6 11 12 13 14 17 18 35 P S I X Y where S is the size of the byte as a number of bits, and P as its position as the number of bits remaining at the right of the byte in the word ... To facilitate processing a series of bytes, several of the byte instructions increment the pointer, ie modify it so that it points to the next byte position in a set of memory locations. Bytes are processed from left to right in a word, so incrementing merely replaces the current value of P by P-S, unless there is insufficient space in the present location [i.e. 'word' - JNC] for another byte of the specified size (P-S < 0). In this case Y is increased by one to point at the next consecutive location, and P is set to 36 - S to point to the first byte at the left in the new location." Now imagine implementing all that in FLIP CHIPs which held transistors (this is before ICs)! Anyway, like I said, at least ITS (of the PDP-10 OS's) used this to store ASCII in words which contain five 7-bit _bytes_. I don't know if TENEX did. > I also feel the use of the term Octet was more marketing to distance > ones machines from IBM..... Huh? Which machine used the term 'octet'? Like I said, we adapted and used the term 'octet' in TCP/IP documentation (and that's definite - go check out historical documents, e.g. RFC-675 from 1974) because 'byte' was at the time ambiguous - the majority of machines on the ARPANET at that point were PDP-10's (see above). Interestingly, I see it's not defined in that document (or in the earlier RFC-635), so it must have already been in use for an 8-bit quantity? Doing a little research, there is a claim that Bob Bemer independently invented the term in 1965/66. Perhaps someone subconciously remembered his proposal, and that's the ultimate source? The term is also long used in chemistry and music, of course, so perhaps that's where it came from. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 7 08:28:12 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 09:28:12 -0500 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <716D9BB8-AD2C-4CA8-ACD9-6C51D128D7C3@comcast.net> > On Jan 7, 2019, at 3:20 AM, Johnny Eriksson via cctalk wrote: > >> Few people (but most are right here) can recite PI to enough digits to >> reach the level of inaccuracy. And those who believe that PI is exactly >> 22/7 are unaffected by FDIV. (YES, some schools do still teach that!) > > Why remember the digits, when a small program can provide them? > > +0un qn"E20Un' 0Uh 0uv HK > Qn Qi<\+2*10+(Qq*qi)Ua 0LK Qi*2-1Uj Qa/QjUq Qa-(Qq*Qj)-2\10I$ Qi-1ui> > Qq/10Ut Qh+Qt+48Uw Qw-58"E48Uw %v' Qv"N:Qv,1^T' QwUv Qq-(Qt*10)Uh> > :Qv,1^T > !Can you figure out what this macro does before running it? It was > written by Stan Rabinowitz with modifications by Mark Bramhall and > appeared as the Macro of the Month in the Nov. 1977 issue of the TECO > SIG newsletter, the "Moby Munger". For information on the TECO Special > Interest Group, write to Stan at P.O. Box 76, Maynard, Mass. 01754! > > --Johnny See also "A spigot algorithm for the digits of pi", American Mathematical Monthly, 102 (1995), 195-203. For extra credit, find and fix the bug in Stan's program. (Run it to 1000 digits or so to see the bug.) paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 7 08:29:55 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 09:29:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190107142955.C7FD818C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > Oh, one last thing: if anybody else out there has a real working '11/45 > + RK05 and wants to try this RSTS image, let me know, and I'll send you > a copy (all 2.5MB of it, hah). It'd be interesting to see if this a > really just limited to my machine? Good idea. Two more along the same lines: Try running your RSTS image on Ersatz-11, see if it's a simulator issue. And try bringing up Unix V6 on your machine; if it's a hardware issue with your machine, it might show with that, too. (I can help with fault analysis on V6, if _anything_ doesn't work properly.) It will need a single RK pack, I can help with providing the image, if needed. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 7 08:45:19 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 09:45:19 -0500 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8 In-Reply-To: <076101d4a649$3a24f130$ae6ed390$@gmail.com> References: <58803683a7f752f081f6d7b01a30772d1f44a076.camel@gmail.com> <076101d4a649$3a24f130$ae6ed390$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 7, 2019, at 12:24 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I am also pretty sure that prior to S/360 the term "character" was generally used for non 8-bit character machines. I am not familiar with the IBM 70xx series machines but certainly on the 1401 and 1620 the term byte was never used. The 1620 is a decimal machine, with digit-addressed memory. It has a number of instructions that operate on digit pairs, for I/O, so those pairs are called "characters". > Also the Honeywell H3200 which was an IBM1401 "clone" (sort of). The only machine I know where a "byte" is not eight bits is the Honeywell L6000 and its siblings These machines had 36 bit works which were originally divided into 6 six bit characters. Others have already pointed out there are plenty of other examples, with other definitions. I mentioned the CDC 6000 series mainframes. Just to make sure of my memory, I searched some documentation. Here is a quote from the CDC Cyber 170 series Hardware Reference Manual (section "Input/output multiplexor - Model 176"): "During communications between the PPUs and CM, the I/O MUX disassembles 60-bit transmissions from CM to 12-bit bytes." But here's one I had not seen before: in the 7600 Preliminary System Description, the section that describes the PPU I/O machinery has the same sort of wording as above, but then on the next page the discussion of the drum memory says: "A 16 bit cyclic parity byte is generated by the controller for the data field of each record written on the peripheral unit." And the CDC 6000 series Sort-Merge utility has a "BYTESIZE" control card, which in PDP-10 fashion allows "byte" to be any length up to 60 bits (the word size) -- the default is 6 bits, which is character length for the basic character set but other examples show 12 and 60 bit "bytes". In the same way, a TUTOR language manual from 1978 describes bytes as being any size, in a description of the language feature for what C calls bit-field variables. I didn't realize that term was used for that feature, though. paul From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Jan 7 08:51:31 2019 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 15:51:31 +0100 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP In-Reply-To: References: <20190106181900.A0CC718C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <11b916e4-ef19-980f-8c9f-8ba2fa62d095@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20190107145131.k4tuexp232f6kjvd@mooli.org.uk> On Sun, Jan 06, 2019 at 02:54:08PM -0700, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 1/6/2019 12:24 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: >> The small beauty of being there...?? FYI back then (1972) a 7400 was about >> 25 cents and 7483 adder was maybe $1.25.? Least that's what I paid. > Checks my favorite supplier. > $1.25 for 7400 and $4.00 for a 7483. > It has gone up in price. Thanks to inflation, $0.25 in 1972 is worth $1.51 now. Likewise, $1.25 has inflated to $7.54. So they're cheaper in real terms than they used to be. However, it's still not entirely comparable, as I suspect nobody's making 74-series chips any more so you're buying NOS. A modern equivalent would be a microcontroller, which start at well under a dollar. From kylevowen at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 09:09:37 2019 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 09:09:37 -0600 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP In-Reply-To: <20190107145131.k4tuexp232f6kjvd@mooli.org.uk> References: <20190106181900.A0CC718C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <11b916e4-ef19-980f-8c9f-8ba2fa62d095@gmail.com> <20190107145131.k4tuexp232f6kjvd@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 8:51 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Thanks to inflation, $0.25 in 1972 is worth $1.51 now. Likewise, $1.25 has > inflated to $7.54. So they're cheaper in real terms than they used to be. > > However, it's still not entirely comparable, as I suspect nobody's making > 74-series chips any more so you're buying NOS. A modern equivalent would > be a > microcontroller, which start at well under a dollar. > Logic chips still have their uses, and are most certainly still being made. You can still get 74LS parts, in a DIP package even: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/SN74LS00N/296-1626-5-ND/277272 Note: it's an active production part, too. Kyle From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 09:20:14 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 10:20:14 -0500 Subject: so far off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? In-Reply-To: <20190107145131.k4tuexp232f6kjvd@mooli.org.uk> References: <20190106181900.A0CC718C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <11b916e4-ef19-980f-8c9f-8ba2fa62d095@gmail.com> <20190107145131.k4tuexp232f6kjvd@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 01/07/2019 09:51 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Jan 06, 2019 at 02:54:08PM -0700, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/6/2019 12:24 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: >>> The small beauty of being there...?? FYI back then (1972) a 7400 was about >>> 25 cents and 7483 adder was maybe $1.25.? Least that's what I paid. >> Checks my favorite supplier. >> $1.25 for 7400 and $4.00 for a 7483. >> It has gone up in price. > Thanks to inflation, $0.25 in 1972 is worth $1.51 now. Likewise, $1.25 has > inflated to $7.54. So they're cheaper in real terms than they used to be. > > However, it's still not entirely comparable, as I suspect nobody's making > 74-series chips any more so you're buying NOS. A modern equivalent would be a > microcontroller, which start at well under a dollar. > First I wasn't guessing back.? I was building and buying back then. So that was what I actually paid in 1972,? I've been at it since RTL hit the streets.?? The 74 series still made though more likely 74F, AS, or LS variant and of course CMOS 74ACT (and cmos friends) as I just bought a bunch.? Dip is getting harder to get but the various SMT packages are easy.? Prices for 10 or more of a part are cheap to cheaper from primary suppliers.? The second tier suppliers are often several times that. I figure most of what I did back then is years before many here were born. However I have enough NOS TTL 74LS, 74AS, 74F series to build several machines.? I'm still building, current project is a very compact Z80 CP/M system using CF for disk. Mine uses all Zilog CMOS for very low power.? Its a variant of the Grant Searle Z80 with memory management added to utilize all of the 124k ram and eeprom.? If you want go look there. Allison From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 7 09:40:09 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 10:40:09 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <84DE8CF8-2DF1-4B32-A4B9-9DCA824F3F92@fritzm.org> References: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> <838F1EA9-5D69-4FE2-BDD1-83D623EB5AE4@fritzm.org> <24676122-42CC-4914-9B75-E2CF19617E92@comcast.net> <84DE8CF8-2DF1-4B32-A4B9-9DCA824F3F92@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <152672BA-22E9-472E-8E7D-9F16B7042C6E@comcast.net> > On Jan 6, 2019, at 9:34 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Paul, > >> On Jan 6, 2019, at 5:58 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> Hm. Can you read data back from the RK05 pack? I'd have to refresh my memory on how but it's clearly possible to force a crash dump. That would allow us to dig into exactly what went wrong, provided you can read the dump file (or the whole disk). > > Yes, I can read back, either by sector or the whole pack. Do let me know if you find a way to trigger a crash dump, and I?ll give it a go! > > thanks, > --FritzM. Here is the procedure. 1. Make sure crash dump is enabled (in the "default" option). Start the system. Let it run for at least one minute. (I'm not entirely sure about older versions, but I think that a crash within one minute of startup is handled differently and doesn't do all the usual dump and restart machinery.) 2. Set the data switches all UP. (In SIMH, enter "D SR 177777".) 3. Set a breakpoint. 4. When you hit the breakpoint, change the PC to 52, like this: 0B:055244 _$7/055244 52 _P (you enter only "$7/" and "52" and "P", the rest is output from ODT.) The system will write the crashdump and then automatically restart. 5. You should now have the crash dump in [0,1]CRASH.SYS, so you can either extract that file and the OS image (the RSTS "SIL" file), or the whole disk. To analyze it, you can use the standard utility ANALYS, or the unsupported SDA Forth program. I haven't tried SDA on a V6C image, though; it will probably work but no guarantees. ANALYSIS needs to be the version that came with that particular OS release, so probably the best way to do it is to boot your system disk image copy on SIMH and run it there. The key question in this instance is who called LOG$CK, the "RTS originated" log call. The stack should help answer that, through tracing through it is a bit painful since there are no explicit stack frames so the equivalent to "print me the call stack" does not exist. If the error originated in a .ERLOG user mode EMT, that means the RTS was unhappy. The RTS itself isn't included in the crash dump, but the saved user mode PC will indicate where the error came from and looking at the BASIC.RTS image will indicate what it was doing at the time. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 7 10:37:59 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 10:37:59 -0600 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8 In-Reply-To: <076101d4a649$3a24f130$ae6ed390$@gmail.com> References: <58803683a7f752f081f6d7b01a30772d1f44a076.camel@gmail.com> <076101d4a649$3a24f130$ae6ed390$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C338067.4060605@pico-systems.com> On 01/06/2019 11:24 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > I am also pretty sure that prior to S/360 the term > "character" was generally used for non 8-bit character > machines. I am not familiar with the IBM 70xx series machines The IBM 7070 (business machine) was a word-addressed machine, but all decimal. The IBM 709x series (scientific machine) was also word addressed, but binary. > I seem to recall that some IBM machines also had > facilities to read all 9 bits from a 9-track tape as data > so 9-bit bytes but I can't find references. I also feel > the use of the term Octet was more marketing to distance > ones machines from IBM..... Dave The earlier machines were mostly using 7 track tape, not 9 track. You did have your choice of even or odd parity. I'm pretty sure that the 360 tape controls did not support any handling of the 9th track other than parity, and odd parity was the only option. Jon From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 11:21:17 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 18:21:17 +0100 Subject: VueSCAN In-Reply-To: <012a01d49804$c4ed3c80$4ec7b580$@net> References: <010e01d497e2$3d238c90$b76aa5b0$@net> <73FC7D06-C393-4803-B60B-3B03C6EAA7B8@avanthar.com> <012a01d49804$c4ed3c80$4ec7b580$@net> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 at 02:39, Ali via cctalk wrote: > I wonder if there were ever any TWAIN drivers for Win 3.x..... This is stretching my powers of recollection -- and in my world, back then, if you could afford (and wanted) a scanner, you used a Mac -- but I think so, yes. We are all aware of what that acronym means, yes? -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 11:40:39 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 18:40:39 +0100 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: <3FC424AE-83D8-4A01-B231-D0F94E35C749@avanthar.com> References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <501D5BCC-11BC-4A22-8CE6-AE6DBA629684@eschatologist.net> <3FC424AE-83D8-4A01-B231-D0F94E35C749@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 at 02:59, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > Websites are a huge inconvenience or imposition, email lists are not. Agreed. However, for a lot of younger people and those to whom "email" just means "MS Outlook", it's hard work. They do not understand complexities such as filtering, rules, quoting, signatures etc. For them, web fora are easier. Personally, I find web fora almost totally unusable and treat them as a last resort. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 11:49:58 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 18:49:58 +0100 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 at 04:51, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > > OK, so it's down *to* the bunker or down *in* the bunker. I'm just asking > because of my language geekery. I still don't know, though, whether "down > the bunker" without a preposition is idiomatic in some dialect of English I > don't speak fluently. You do not specify what *your* native dialect is, so it's hard to say. In much of the UK, probably most, yes, "down the /x/" is idiomatic. "I was talking to this bloke down the pub..." "There's a great offer down the computer market on Tottenham Court Road..." "I was down the gym last night and I saw..." It means "at the", roughly, I'd say. "Down the bunker" parses fine for me. > I just know some UK English speakers pronounce "down > to the/down at the" ALMOST the same as "down the", but I believe there's > still a glottal stop in the former but not the latter. Not that I am aware of, no. However, Yorkshire and Lancashire English tend to reduce the definite article to a prefixed /t/ sound, e.g. "t'pub". See the unofficial Yorkshire national anthem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Ilkla_Moor_Baht_%27at "Baht 'at" means "bar t'hat". "Bar" as in "all bar one" -- "without" or "except". In other words, the singer was on Ilkley Moor without his hat. This t' prefix is jocularly used for the Internet, for instance: "t'Internet". https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/t%27internet Those who do not understand the reference reduce this to the meaningless "tinternet". As certain successive consonants without an intervening vowel sound are uncommon in English, those who don't know what this "t'" sound means can fail to distinguish it. Compare with the Hindi (I yhink) words "bindi" and "bhindi". The former is a forehead adornment. The latter is the vegetable, okra. Many Indian restaurants serve bhindi bhaji, but because Anglophones mostly can't pronounce /b/ followed by /h/, if you ask for "bindi baji" instead of "bhindi bhaji" you do not get a forehead jewel shaped like an okra pod. So you could say "I'm going down t'bunker" and to the untrained ear it would sound like "down the bunker". But I doubt this is what was meant. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 7 12:57:48 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:57:48 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <152672BA-22E9-472E-8E7D-9F16B7042C6E@comcast.net> References: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> <838F1EA9-5D69-4FE2-BDD1-83D623EB5AE4@fritzm.org> <24676122-42CC-4914-9B75-E2CF19617E92@comcast.net> <84DE8CF8-2DF1-4B32-A4B9-9DCA824F3F92@fritzm.org> <152672BA-22E9-472E-8E7D-9F16B7042C6E@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jan 7, 2019, at 10:40 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > ... > 5. You should now have the crash dump in [0,1]CRASH.SYS, so you can either extract that file and the OS image (the RSTS "SIL" file), or the whole disk. To analyze it, you can use the standard utility ANALYS, or the unsupported SDA Forth program. I haven't tried SDA on a V6C image, though; it will probably work but no guarantees. I just tried it. While FORTH works, SDA from the V10 kit does not because it expects to see V10 kernel data structures and the ones in V6 are quite different. So much of the benefit of SDA in that it knows how to pick apart kernel data structures goes away, leaving you with little more than what ANALYS does. It would be possible to update (downdate?) it for V6C, but that's not a small job. paul From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Jan 7 13:59:14 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 11:59:14 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <20190107142955.C7FD818C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190107142955.C7FD818C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <87449ADB-5245-4604-B0C7-C6E1E5053342@fritzm.org> > On Jan 7, 2019, at 6:29 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Try running your RSTS image on Ersatz-11, see if it's a simulator issue. I?ll give that a go. > And try bringing up Unix V6 on your machine ... I can help with providing the image, if needed. I?ve thought about that; Unix V6 is actually next on my list of OS?s to try. I think I have seen a fairly detailed set of instructions on building an image from this from the commonly available distribution tape. But if you have an RK05 image already ready to go, go ahead and send it over and I?ll give it a try! It wasn?t clear to me last time I looked that I could build V6 to run off a single pack without having a second RK05 drive and pack available for swap? Day gig starts back up today after winter break, so less bandwidth for PDP-11 hacking now unfortunately! cheers, --FritzM. From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Jan 7 14:01:35 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:01:35 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <152672BA-22E9-472E-8E7D-9F16B7042C6E@comcast.net> References: <20190105160711.BE4C518C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD@fritzm.org> <838F1EA9-5D69-4FE2-BDD1-83D623EB5AE4@fritzm.org> <24676122-42CC-4914-9B75-E2CF19617E92@comcast.net> <84DE8CF8-2DF1-4B32-A4B9-9DCA824F3F92@fritzm.org> <152672BA-22E9-472E-8E7D-9F16B7042C6E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <98F8281C-7EFC-4935-B477-577673891EE9@fritzm.org> Hi Paul, > On Jan 7, 2019, at 7:40 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jan 6, 2019, at 5:58 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> I'd have to refresh my memory on how but it's clearly possible to force a crash dump. That would allow us to dig into exactly what went wrong, provided you can read the dump file (or the whole disk). > > Here is the procedure... Thanks, I?ll give that a go! --FritzM. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 14:52:32 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:52:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Few people (but most are right here) can recite PI to enough digits to >> reach the level of inaccuracy. And those who believe that PI is exactly >> 22/7 are unaffected by FDIV. (YES, some schools do still teach that!) On Mon, 7 Jan 2019, Johnny Eriksson via cctalk wrote: > Why remember the digits, when a small program can provide them? > > +0un qn"E20Un' 0Uh 0uv HK > Qn Qi<\+2*10+(Qq*qi)Ua 0LK Qi*2-1Uj Qa/QjUq Qa-(Qq*Qj)-2\10I$ Qi-1ui> > Qq/10Ut Qh+Qt+48Uw Qw-58"E48Uw %v' Qv"N:Qv,1^T' QwUv Qq-(Qt*10)Uh> > :Qv,1^T > !Can you figure out what this macro does before running it? It was > written by Stan Rabinowitz with modifications by Mark Bramhall and > appeared as the Macro of the Month in the Nov. 1977 issue of the TECO > SIG newsletter, the "Moby Munger". For information on the TECO Special > Interest Group, write to Stan at P.O. Box 76, Maynard, Mass. 01754! Interesting bit! > Why remember the digits, when a small program can provide them? Maybe, because remembering the first 80 or 90 digits is half as much work to remember or type in, as that macro. The current state of computer "science" "education" fails to even get the students to understand that floating point is a rounded off approximation. FDIV merely added a small unexpected further degradation to a representation that was already inaccurate, and was explicitly an approximation. They often represent a dollar and cents amount as floating point, just to avoid figuring out how to insert the PERIOD delimiter. Use of FDIV is inappropriate for calculating sales tax. NOT because of the FDIV errors, which are well within the portion that will be discarded in roundoff. It should not take until a third semester "Data Structures And Algorithms" class, or beyond, for them to learn to not use floating point for cash transaction processing. People who use 3.1416 or 22/7 for PI are not in a position to gripe as much as they did, about inaccuracies caused by FDIV. The point was that people were screaming about errors that were already irrelevant to the level of accuracy that they were using, in uses that were explicitly NOT INTENDED to be exact. I am building a base to make a patio table out of a CRASHED 24" RAMAC platter, that had been banged around with no effort to store properly for half a century. (Is there a better use for a CRASHED platter?, or a better way to display it than under glass as a rustic table top?) Neither a value of 3.14 for PI, nor FDIV, will further degrade my level of carpentry skills. I'm considering printing out and including a copy of the RAMAC plaque http://www.ed-thelen.org/RAMAC/RAMAC_Plaque_v40.pdf From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 7 14:56:36 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 15:56:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190107205636.347BA18C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > I've thought about that; Unix V6 is actually next on my list of OS's to > try. I think I have seen a fairly detailed set of instructions on > building an image from this from the commonly available distribution > tape. Yeah, one comes with the V6 distribution: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Setting_up_UNIX_-_Sixth_Edition (That's just a 'do this and then do that' list - if you want to know what it's actually _doing_, this: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_UNIX_Sixth_Edition gives the technical details.) Alas, the instructions don't have a lot of detail on how to create the /45 version (it's quite simple - basically one just includes m45.s instead of m40.s in the linker command line :-); I guess I'll do up a cheat sheet. > But if you have an RK05 image already ready to go, go ahead and send it > over and I'll give it a try! Well, there are single-RK05 images up already: http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6/ but they only include binary for /40's (which will run on a /45 of course; they distributed only the lowest-common-denominator binary, to make their life simple; people have to build their own binary - system and commands - if they want to upgrade). But if you'd like me to make up an RK05 image with a /45 system on it too (one gets to specify what one wants to load at boot time); let me know, and I can whip it up - but really, it's drop-dead simple to build a /45 version if you have the /40 version running. Note: the pack images on the distribution tape _do not_ include the bootstrap in block 0; use the one I linked to above. > It wasn't clear to me last time I looked that I could build V6 to run > off a single pack without having a second RK05 drive and pack available > for swap? No, the image above is for a single RK drive machine; it will run that way, albeit things are a bit cramped. What it does is put a file system in blocks 1-4000, and it uses blocks 4000 and up as the swap area (I forget which one block 4000 itself goes with :-). > Day gig starts back up today after winter break, so less bandwidth for > PDP-11 hacking now unfortunately! :-( Well, at least you have something to go back to; the spousal unit works for NASA, and they're all getting an enforced extended break (much to her annoyance). Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 15:11:31 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:11:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: VueSCAN In-Reply-To: References: <010e01d497e2$3d238c90$b76aa5b0$@net> <73FC7D06-C393-4803-B60B-3B03C6EAA7B8@avanthar.com> <012a01d49804$c4ed3c80$4ec7b580$@net> Message-ID: > On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 at 02:39, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> I wonder if there were ever any TWAIN drivers for Win 3.x..... Yes, but I think that you needed WIN32S installed. On Mon, 7 Jan 2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > This is stretching my powers of recollection -- and in my world, back > then, if you could afford (and wanted) a scanner, you used a Mac -- > but I think so, yes. 1) some could not afford Mac (rarely any in the skip) 2) some did not have control over employer's purchasing decisions 3) depending on what was being scanned, other factors influenced platform > We are all aware of what that acronym means, yes? But few pay any attention to any technology without an interesting name. And of those who do and the rest, never the twain shall meet. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Jan 7 15:18:39 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 21:18:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VueSCAN References: <1356500005.14489275.1546895919434.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1356500005.14489275.1546895919434@mail.yahoo.com> my foggy? brain? remembers them? as? I retied? ?the biz? end of things? before? ? win 95? ?came out. and? I? seem to remember? twain? as a term? used? with hp scanjets? before retirement.\ when i? ?left? ?scanjet? ?2c? was? current? color? product.]anyone? coming thou? az? ?with a? scanjet iic? in the? car...? it? would? be? welcome here..we? have? an orig? ?hpscanjet? b/w? ?but? can use another one? for an offsite? display also. ed sharpe archivist for smecc In a message dated 1/7/2019 2:11:37 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 at 02:39, Ali via cctalk wrote:>>? I wonder if there were ever any TWAIN drivers for Win 3.x..... Yes, but I think that you needed WIN32S installed. On Mon, 7 Jan 2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:> This is stretching my powers of recollection -- and in my world, back> then, if you could afford (and wanted) a scanner, you used a Mac --> but I think so, yes. 1) some could not afford Mac? (rarely any in the skip)2) some did not have control over employer's purchasing decisions3) depending on what was being scanned, other factors influenced platform > We are all aware of what that acronym means, yes? But few pay any attention to any technology without an interesting name.And of those who do and the rest, never the twain shall meet. --Grumpy Ol' Fred? ? ??? ??? cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 15:30:30 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:30:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: VueSCAN In-Reply-To: <1356500005.14489275.1546895919434@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1356500005.14489275.1546895919434.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1356500005.14489275.1546895919434@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2019, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > my foggy? brain? remembers them? as? I retied? ?the biz? end of > things? before? ? win 95? ?came out. About 1992. After Windoze 3.00 (I got "beta" Windoze 3.10 in August 1991, public release soon after?), and about the time of 3.11 I have a couple of parallel/SCSI scanners new? in box to get rid of. I don't know if their drivers were TWAIN. From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Jan 7 16:34:26 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:34:26 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <20190107205636.347BA18C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190107205636.347BA18C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <332B8708-7A2A-4E78-82DF-0DA7D788B367@fritzm.org> > On Jan 7, 2019, at 12:56 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > ...there are single-RK05 images up already: > > http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6/ > > but they only include binary for /40?s ... but really, it's drop-dead simple to build a /45 version if you have the /40 version running. Thanks, Noel -- I?ll give that a try! > ...at least you have something to go back to; the spousal unit works for > NASA, and they're all getting an enforced extended break (much to her > annoyance). My day gig is NSF funded, but we?ve got about a month or so of pre-fetch before things start to get ?interesting?... :-( cheers, --FritzM. From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Jan 7 16:53:59 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 22:53:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VueSCAN References: <1343814725.14570787.1546901639006.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1343814725.14570787.1546901639006@mail.yahoo.com> no only hp scan jets no other brands and only the first few models.? thanks though. Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Monday, January 7, 2019 Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Mon, 7 Jan 2019, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > my foggy? brain? remembers them? as? I retied? ?the biz? end of > things? before? ? win 95? ?came out. About 1992. After Windoze 3.00 (I got "beta" Windoze 3.10 in August 1991, public release soon after?), and about the time of 3.11 I have a couple of parallel/SCSI scanners new? in box to get rid of.? I don't know if their drivers were TWAIN. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 17:13:10 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 00:13:10 +0100 Subject: VueSCAN In-Reply-To: References: <010e01d497e2$3d238c90$b76aa5b0$@net> <73FC7D06-C393-4803-B60B-3B03C6EAA7B8@avanthar.com> <012a01d49804$c4ed3c80$4ec7b580$@net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 22:11, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 at 02:39, Ali via cctalk wrote: > >> I wonder if there were ever any TWAIN drivers for Win 3.x..... > > Yes, but I think that you needed WIN32S installed. Ah, could be. > But few pay any attention to any technology without an interesting name. Well, quite. > And of those who do and the rest, never the twain shall meet. I think we've all missed that twain now. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 7 17:26:42 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 18:26:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190107232642.8E74C18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I guess I'll do up a cheat sheet. OK, first crack here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Upgrading_UNIX_Sixth_Edition If there are any improvement I can/should make, please let me know. Thanks! Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 17:43:11 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 15:43:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: VueSCAN In-Reply-To: References: <010e01d497e2$3d238c90$b76aa5b0$@net> <73FC7D06-C393-4803-B60B-3B03C6EAA7B8@avanthar.com> <012a01d49804$c4ed3c80$4ec7b580$@net> Message-ID: >>>> I wonder if there were ever any TWAIN drivers for Win 3.x..... >> >> Yes, but I think that you needed WIN32S installed. On Tue, 8 Jan 2019, Liam Proven wrote: > Ah, could be. 16-bit TWAIN was supported in version 1.9 of the specification, apparently eliminated by 2.2 Other than a 16 bit version, that may or may not have existed?, the TWAIN drivers would be same/similar to WIN95. http://www.neosys.si/download/TWAIN/dsminst32.txt >> But few pay any attention to any technology without an interesting name. > Well, quite. >> And of those who do and the rest, never the twain shall meet. > I think we've all missed that twain now. To misquote Leah Hager Cohen, "Twain go sorry." From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 7 18:11:43 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 19:11:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190108001143.8E10B18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > Thanks, Noel -- I'll give that a try! Sure - always glad to help with anything V6 related - that's my chief technical amusement, now that I'm retired! :-) Any questions/issues, let me know, and I'll try and get right back. When booting UNIX, remember make sure the switches on your /45 are set to 0173030, so it comes up single-user! (Might we worth checking to see if all the bits in the SR are working, but you've probably already done that as part of bringing the machine up? I wonder if a failure there could cause the RSTS issue? It's so cool that you have a working /45! I have yet to start on mine...) And do icheck/dcheck every time you bring it up, and make sure to 'sync' before halting... These old systems are not as robust in terms of the file system! And when it gets to putting together a /45 version of the OS, that new page I just did should help. Noel From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 7 18:25:39 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 17:25:39 -0700 Subject: so far off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? In-Reply-To: References: <20190106181900.A0CC718C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <11b916e4-ef19-980f-8c9f-8ba2fa62d095@gmail.com> <20190107145131.k4tuexp232f6kjvd@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 1/7/2019 8:20 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: snip... > made though more likely 74F, AS, or LS variant and of course CMOS 74ACT > (and cmos friends) as I just bought a bunch.? Dip is getting harder to > get but > the various SMT packages are easy.? Prices for 10 or more of a part are > cheap to cheaper from primary suppliers.? The second tier suppliers are > often several times that. I got ebay... The bottom of the heap. > I figure most of what I did back then is years before many here were born. > > However I have enough NOS TTL 74LS, 74AS, 74F series to build several > machines. I have been playing around with a early 70's TTL computer design and 74LS181's are too slow by 30 ns. Using a BLACK BOX model for core memory, I can get a 1.2us memory cycle using a 4.912 MHz raw clock but I need a few 74Hxx's in there. Proms are 256x4 60 ns and 32x8 50 ns. Do you have your 74Hxx spares? Eastern Europe still has a few on ebay with reasonable shipping for 100% American Russian parts. > I'm still building, current project is a very compact Z80 CP/M system > using CF > for disk. Mine uses all Zilog CMOS for very low power.? Its a variant of > the > Grant Searle Z80 with memory management added to utilize all of the > 124k ram and eeprom.? If you want go look there. What do you use all that memory for? > Allison > The Chinese elves have been busy, My 5V 15 amp $20 power supply arrived in the mail today. I have power to spare for my BUS and blinking lights. Ben. From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 19:51:22 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 20:51:22 -0500 Subject: so far off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? In-Reply-To: References: <20190106181900.A0CC718C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <11b916e4-ef19-980f-8c9f-8ba2fa62d095@gmail.com> <20190107145131.k4tuexp232f6kjvd@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <5baf8592-83b4-3e81-b03a-560f7852a325@gmail.com> On 01/07/2019 07:25 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 1/7/2019 8:20 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > snip... >> made though more likely 74F, AS, or LS variant and of course CMOS 74ACT >> (and cmos friends) as I just bought a bunch.? Dip is getting harder to >> get but >> the various SMT packages are easy.? Prices for 10 or more of a part are >> cheap to cheaper from primary suppliers.? The second tier suppliers are >> often several times that. > > I got ebay... The bottom of the heap. > >> I figure most of what I did back then is years before many here were >> born. >> >> However I have enough NOS TTL 74LS, 74AS, 74F series to build several >> machines. > > I have been playing around with a early 70's TTL computer design > and 74LS181's are too slow by 30 ns. Using a BLACK BOX model for core > memory, I can get a 1.2us memory cycle using a 4.912 MHz raw clock > but I need a few 74Hxx's in there. Proms are 256x4 60 ns and 32x8 50 ns. > > Do you have your 74Hxx spares? Eastern Europe still? has a few on ebay > with reasonable shipping for 100% American Russian parts. > No use for 74H parts though I have a bunch. the 74LS are slow? you are paying for lower power with speed.? tHe 74181 and 74S181 were far faster. Proms are small and slow, last time I used them was for the address decode used on the Northstar* MDS-A controller. I built the last big machine with ram back 1980 and was in the 1us instruction cycle time for single cycle instructions without pipelines.? Core was never considered.? Trick is throw hardware at it.? Adding adders to the address calculation rather than reuse the ALU saves a lot of time and wires.?? Not like it was for manufacture or anything like that.? More of an exercise. I still want to make a stretched 8, PDP8 ISA with 16 bits and faster. No good reason save for it wold be fun. >> I'm still building, current project is a very compact Z80 CP/M system >> using CF >> for disk. Mine uses all Zilog CMOS for very low power.? Its a variant of >> the >> Grant Searle Z80 with memory management added to utilize all of the >> 124k ram and eeprom.? If you want go look there. > > What do you use all that memory for? > CP/M the allocation block store for each drive and deblocking buffers for performance can be large plus its easy to hide part of the Bios in banked ram.? Background processes are easier when you have lots of ram for that.? Most of the larger aps like C compilers and such run better with more than 48K, 56k is easy, and 60k is doable with the right memory map. For EEprom its more than boot, the system is in EEprom (about 8K) and with 32K or more things like romdisks and utilities are easily parked there. I've been building nonstandard CP/M systems since 79.? In all cases he aps think it is standard CP/M but the bios and such have been tuned even CP/M Bdos it self. Though I often use ZRdos or ZSdos as they are very good.? Not much you cant do to it. Allison >> > > The Chinese elves have been busy, My 5V 15 amp $20 power supply arrived > in the mail today. I have power to spare for my BUS and blinking lights. > So long as you load it at least 10% it will be good. > Ben. > > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 7 20:22:37 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 20:22:37 -0600 Subject: so far off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? In-Reply-To: <5baf8592-83b4-3e81-b03a-560f7852a325@gmail.com> References: <20190106181900.A0CC718C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <11b916e4-ef19-980f-8c9f-8ba2fa62d095@gmail.com> <20190107145131.k4tuexp232f6kjvd@mooli.org.uk> <5baf8592-83b4-3e81-b03a-560f7852a325@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C34096D.1010009@pico-systems.com> On 01/07/2019 07:51 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > I still want to make a stretched 8, PDP8 ISA with 16 bits > and faster. No good reason save for it wold be fun. Umm, I think that is called a Data General Nova! Jon From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Jan 8 00:02:00 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 22:02:00 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <20190107205636.347BA18C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190107205636.347BA18C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <725ECA04-E584-40E1-968E-FFD7E881D9F4@fritzm.org> > On Jan 7, 2019, at 12:56 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Well, there are single-RK05 images up already: > > http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6/ Hmm, this link didn?t work for me; I found I think equivalent mirrored at: https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/Ken_Wellsch_v6/ ...which directory contains several file system images and one tape image, ?v6.tape?. When I mount that on a virtual TU10 under SIMH and key in the bootstrap from you linked doc, I get: "Unexpected internal error while processing event for TM0 which returned 102 - Invalid magtape record length" Is that tape image maybe not compatible with SIMH?s tape format? thanks, --FritzM. From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Jan 8 00:06:26 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 22:06:26 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <725ECA04-E584-40E1-968E-FFD7E881D9F4@fritzm.org> References: <20190107205636.347BA18C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <725ECA04-E584-40E1-968E-FFD7E881D9F4@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <2208DA10-DF1B-4D71-BE9B-46C7CF072ECA@fritzm.org> > On Jan 7, 2019, at 10:02 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > >> On Jan 7, 2019, at 12:56 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >> Well, there are single-RK05 images up already: >> >> http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6/ > > ...which directory contains several file system images and one tape image, ?v6.tape?. When I mount that on a virtual TU10 under SIMH and key in the bootstrap from you linked doc, I get: > > "Unexpected internal error while processing event for TM0 which returned 102 - Invalid magtape record length" > > Is that tape image maybe not compatible with SIMH?s tape format? Oh: http://decuser.blogspot.com/2015/11/installing-and-using-research-unix.html From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jan 8 02:25:25 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 09:25:25 +0100 (CET) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <87449ADB-5245-4604-B0C7-C6E1E5053342@fritzm.org> References: <20190107142955.C7FD818C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <87449ADB-5245-4604-B0C7-C6E1E5053342@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2019, Fritz Mueller wrote: > It wasn?t clear to me last time I looked that I could build V6 to run > off a single pack without having a second RK05 drive and pack available > for swap? I have 2.9BSD on a single RK05 pack *with* a small swap space, it works very nicely. I have a 11/45 with RK05, RL02 and RX02 in a single cabinet. Christian From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Jan 8 04:06:12 2019 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 11:06:12 +0100 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP In-Reply-To: <4BDE03FE-1A04-4060-B245-6EFDDC503B42@csp-partnership.co.uk> References: <4BDE03FE-1A04-4060-B245-6EFDDC503B42@csp-partnership.co.uk> Message-ID: <20190108100612.GB14046@Update.UU.SE> Hi Iain I asked a guy from Latvia that I know, Olafs. He recognized the transistors as KT315 A and B. Collector is middle pin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KT315 He might also be able to help with spare lights, contact me off-list. Unfortunately he has no documentation. /P On Sat, Jan 05, 2019 at 06:36:56PM +0000, Dr Iain Maoileoin via cctalk wrote: > Off topic, but looking for help and/or wisdom. > > If you visit https://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/saratov / you will see some photos and wire-lists of work that I have started on the front panel of a Capatob 2. > > I plan to get the switches and lights running on a blinkenbone board with a PDP8 emulation behind it. (I already have an PDP11/70 front-panel running on the same infrastructure) > > I have been struggling for over a year to get much info about this saratov computer (circuit diagrams etc). So I have started the reverse engineering on the panel. > > Does anybody know anything about this computer? online or offline it would be much appreciated. > > Iain From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Jan 8 04:46:49 2019 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 11:46:49 +0100 Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP In-Reply-To: <20190108100612.GB14046@Update.UU.SE> References: <4BDE03FE-1A04-4060-B245-6EFDDC503B42@csp-partnership.co.uk> <20190108100612.GB14046@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20190108104649.GC14046@Update.UU.SE> Hi again Olafs also found this: http://www.nedopc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9778 Unless you know russian, maybe you can use google translate. Regards, Pontus. On Tue, Jan 08, 2019 at 11:06:12AM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > Hi Iain > > I asked a guy from Latvia that I know, Olafs. He recognized the > transistors as KT315 A and B. Collector is middle pin. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KT315 > > He might also be able to help with spare lights, contact me off-list. > Unfortunately he has no documentation. > > /P > > On Sat, Jan 05, 2019 at 06:36:56PM +0000, Dr Iain Maoileoin via cctalk > wrote: > > Off topic, but looking for help and/or wisdom. > > > > If you visit https://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/saratov / you will see some photos and wire-lists of work that I have started on the front panel of a Capatob 2. > > > > I plan to get the switches and lights running on a blinkenbone board with a PDP8 emulation behind it. (I already have an PDP11/70 front-panel running on the same infrastructure) > > > > I have been struggling for over a year to get much info about this saratov computer (circuit diagrams etc). So I have started the reverse engineering on the panel. > > > > Does anybody know anything about this computer? online or offline it would be much appreciated. > > > > Iain From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 09:47:32 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 09:47:32 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: References: <20190107142955.C7FD818C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <87449ADB-5245-4604-B0C7-C6E1E5053342@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 2:25 AM Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > I have 2.9BSD on a single RK05 pack *with* a small swap space, it works > very nicely. I have a 11/45 with RK05, RL02 and RX02 in a single cabinet. My experience with 2.9BSD on an 11/24 in the late 80s was that an install from tape was difficult on a system with an RL02 as the main disk because the install pulled in so much stuff that you really needed to juggle two RL02s and mount one as /usr to get the sources and extras if you wanted to rebuild the kernel. I think if you used the distro kernel there was enough room to install into 10MB (but there wasn't room for multiple kernel files sitting around). If you built a system on a larger configuration, I can see it would be possible to copy only the necessary bits to an RK05 but I can't imagine there's much room left. As I recall, you can fit a full install (sources, man pages...) of 2.9BSD on an RK07 with plenty of room to work. One of the challenges I had then was my largest PDP-11 at home was an 11/24 with 2MB of RAM (a used KT24 was $600!), RX11/RX01, an RL01 of my own, and a borrowed RL02. At work, I had access to an 11/24 with 4 RL02 and I could cable in an RK611 with two RK07 as well as a TU80 tape drive. I did the initial install with the work rig, then trimmed things down to fit on an RL02 to take home. If I ever start playing with that system again, I want to find a couple of MS11-PB (M8743) 1MB ECC cards to max it out. -ethan From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Jan 8 09:53:35 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 08:53:35 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: References: <20190107142955.C7FD818C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <87449ADB-5245-4604-B0C7-C6E1E5053342@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 8:47 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > One of the challenges I had then was my largest PDP-11 at home was an > 11/24 with 2MB of RAM. > I'm wondering how 2.9BSD was with ~1MB of RAM, but say ~40MB of disk. I have a machine I play with from time to time that's x86 + 892MB of RAM + 40MB disk and was wondering if it would be worth it to try to adjust the V7ish port I kinda sorta have to it to work with 2.9BSD... Warner From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 09:58:05 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 09:58:05 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: References: <20190107142955.C7FD818C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <87449ADB-5245-4604-B0C7-C6E1E5053342@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 9:53 AM Warner Losh wrote: > On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 8:47 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> One of the challenges I had then was my largest PDP-11 at home was a >> 11/24 with 2MB of RAM. > > I'm wondering how 2.9BSD was with ~1MB of RAM, but say ~40MB of disk. I have a machine I play with from time to time that's x86 + 892MB of RAM + 40MB disk and was wondering if it would be worth it to try to adjust the V7ish port I kinda sorta have to it to work with 2.9BSD... As I recall, as a single-user machine, 2MB was no problem. Decently responsive. The only time I ever made the machine wheeze was when recompiling the kernel. Nothing else I did was fat enough to really tax it. -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 8 11:23:43 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 12:23:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: KD11-E/EA microcode flow diagrams Message-ID: <20190108172343.92B4218C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller >> the last microinstruction for RTI/RTT has been moved from 002 -> 744. > So what's at 002 now? Maybe something new was required there by micro > branch/fork logic, so the original contents had to be moved? Well, it turns out I've been transcribing the ucode flow diagrams from the 34, as part of a deeper look at the 34. (Dave B and I need a PDP-11 in the FPGA on the QSIC, to run the USB protocol on; rather than using a microcontroller, we decided the hack value of putting an -11 in there was too much to resist. It's also practical, though - we're already very familiar with it, have a good toolchain for it, etc. One option for that - we know about the existing FPGA -11's - was cloning the /34.) So according to that table: http://gunkies.org/wiki/KD11-E/EA_microcode there is no uinst at 002 now! So I have no idea why they moved it. (The place they moved it to, 0744, seems like it was the first empty location.) There is a dump of the 34A microcode here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/m8266_ucode.out.txt and for 002 it gives Called by......... = IR or BUT only NEXT MPC.......... = 015 but 015 doesn't seem like a useful place to branch to? Maybe location 002 was just abandoned (I have no idea why), and that's some leftover trash? BTW, the engineering drawings contain three errors (fixed in the table above; see the notes there), so I suspect they were drawn up by looking at a set of the listings. I wonder if the actual source has survived? Probably not, alas... Noel From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jan 8 11:46:13 2019 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 09:46:13 -0800 Subject: Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs) In-Reply-To: References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 1:00 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Few people (but most are right here) can recite PI to enough digits to > reach the level of inaccuracy. And those who believe that PI is exactly > 22/7 are unaffected by FDIV. (YES, some schools do still teach that!) > Really? I find it hard to believe any schools taught that as anything other than an approximation. And as an approximation it's not good for much unless you are multiplying PI in your head by a factors of 7 a lot (i.e 21*PI ~ 66). Personally, I use the PI^2 ~ 10 approximation far more often when doing math in my head. But since I'm almost always sitting at a screen, approximations are less useful than they used to be. If I need PI to 600 places, "scale=600;a(1)*4" is always there for the asking. The exception is the approximations that provide physical scale. For example, 1 km/s ~ 1 parsec/million years, or v=4.74 PM/parallax, which provides the conversion from proper motion to parallax, 5 magnitudes is a factor of 100. And of course, "c" in whatever units you need. They are just easier to remember than to look up. -- Eric Korpela korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu AST:7731^29u18e3 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 8 12:36:12 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 13:36:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190108183612.4F9F918C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller >> http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6/ > Hmm, this link didn't work for me Arggh, sorry. I simply copied the link from my page: http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html and didn't check it. :-( I'm a bit suprised that Warren broke everyone's deep links by re-organizing... > I found I think equivalent mirrored at: > https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/Ken_Wellsch_v6/ > ...which directory contains several file system images and one tape > image, "v6.tape". Argh. I thought there _used_ to be disk images there - maybe they got removed? Anyway, the one you want is now here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/unix/V6Root Just decant all the bits onto a RK pack, starting at block 0, and you should be able to boot that pack. (I'll fix my page a little later, burned out after the microcode transcription!) > Is that tape image maybe not compatible with SIMH's tape format? It's just a plain copy of the contents of a V6 distribution tape. IIRC, SIMH wants 'tape' files with meta-data such as the length of each tape record, file marks, etc. Noel From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Jan 8 12:43:22 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:43:22 -0800 Subject: KD11-E/EA microcode flow diagrams In-Reply-To: <20190108172343.92B4218C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190108172343.92B4218C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3928967C-0B82-4206-8C41-2D364CD1FD3D@fritzm.org> > On Jan 8, 2019, at 9:23 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > ... Dave B and I need a PDP-11 in the FPGA on the QSIC, to run the USB protocol on; rather than using a microcontroller, we decided the hack value of putting an -11 in there was too much to resist. Fun! I should go read up on QSIC. I could really use a ?USIC?... :-) > there is no uinst at 002 now! So I have no idea why they moved it. (The place they moved it to, 0744, seems like it was the first empty location.) Weird... > I wonder if the actual source has survived? Probably not, alas... Probably the best thing would be to pop a ROM out of a working /34 and read it out? Is that how you?ve gotten your authoritative version? From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Jan 8 12:56:14 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:56:14 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <20190108183612.4F9F918C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190108183612.4F9F918C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5C754138-BADD-4B2E-A4F1-436C031976C9@fritzm.org> Update from last night: I did manage to build a bootable single-RK05 V6 unix image under SIMH, starting from the Ken Wellsch tape image. Yeah, it needs to be converted to SIMH tape format, as documented in various places on the web, including actually a gunkies page that I didn?t notice until later :-) Wrote to an actual pack (~3 hrs with PDP11GUI, ugh, really need that USB FIFO hack, picking up some tri-state buffers for it today on way to work.) Kernel boots on my actual hardware, but an ?ls? in single-user mode generates a ?Memory error -- core dumped.? So evidence is mounting that I really do have some sort of issue with my MS11-L. Tried a multi-user boot for kicks, and I?m actually able to ?ls? under that. But it croaked trying to run the C compiler. So I could work to extract the core file (and also to follow Paul?s instructions to extract a crash file from RSTS), but probably the best application of effort would be to do develop/run more diagnostics on the MS11-L and see if I can shake out any problems there? cheers, --FritzM. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 8 13:30:02 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 14:30:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: KD11-E/EA microcode flow diagrams Message-ID: <20190108193002.2DA5D18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > I should go read up on QSIC. There's not much on the Web, alas. We have two working prototypes (a wirewrap QBUS mother-board with bus transceivers, level converters, etc, connected to an FPGA prototyp ung card by flat cables), and working FPGA code to emulate an RK11, using a uSD card for actual storage. It's good enough that the /23 can boot and run V6. We also have working indicator panels: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html but the inlay we've done: http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/indicator-panel-printed.jpg is not a straight copy of an existing panel (those all have lots of lights that only make sense with a real drive, and leave out others that would be really useful, e.g. the address). Here: http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/manual.pdf is the firat crack at the manual for the production version (the RP11 is not done yet). > I could really use a "USIC"... :-) That's next, after the QSIC is out. It will include Able ENABLE: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Able_ENABLE functionality, so UNIBUS machines can have more than 256KB of main memory. > Probably the best thing would be to pop a ROM out of a working /34 and > read it out? Is that how you've gotten your authoritative version? I didn't get it, I found it on BitSavers - I assume that was what whoever provided it did. But it's actually stored in 12 4-bit wide PROMs, U95-U118 (roughly). Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 8 13:45:52 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 14:45:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190108194552.EB72118C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > Kernel boots on my actual hardware, but an "ls" in single-user mode > generates a "Memory error -- core dumped". Oh, yeah, your hardware definitely has issues, then. > So evidence is mounting that I really do have some sort of issue with > my MS11-L. If so, I'm rather suprised that the DEC diagnostics didn't pick it up. > Tried a multi-user boot for kicks You're stu^H^H^Hbrave! > I'm actually able to "ls" under that. Yeah, probably your process wound up at a different place in physical memory (although there are a zillion other ways one could get that effect, depending on exactly what the issue is - e.g. maybe a bad bit in the memory word where the process table happened to wind up). > I could work to extract the core file The 'ls' one, please (shorter/simpler); I can poke around in that, and see if I can find any clues as to the cause. > probably the best application of effort would be to do develop/run more > diagnostics on the MS11-L OK. I also have a little memory diag that I wrote myself that you could try. Let me know if you'd like it; it's currently for the /23+/73 (and it would probably work on the /70, I'd have to check) so I'd have to tweak a few things to get it to run on a /45. Best way to get it to you would be to send you the Unix assembler source, if you can get that onto the disk, then you could: as memptst.s mv a.out /memptst and just boot it. Noel From pbirkel at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 14:02:50 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 15:02:50 -0500 Subject: KD11-E/EA microcode flow diagrams In-Reply-To: <3928967C-0B82-4206-8C41-2D364CD1FD3D@fritzm.org> References: <20190108172343.92B4218C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3928967C-0B82-4206-8C41-2D364CD1FD3D@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <050e01d4a78d$22552620$66ff7260$@gmail.com> >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fritz Mueller via cctalk >Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 1:43 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: KD11-E/EA microcode flow diagrams > >... I could really use a ?USIC?... :-) I believe that's called a "UniBone", sortta: http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone ----- paul From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Jan 8 14:03:24 2019 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2019 20:03:24 +0000 (WET) Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message Message-ID: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> About two hours ago, I received an email to the address I only use for cctech/cctalk. It claimed my email account had been hacked and threatened all sorts of dire consequences if I didn't deposit $1000 in bitcoins in some place within 48 hours. I am 100% certain that the claims in the message are completely bogus and none of the threats will be carried out. It is likely that email addresses belonging to other list members are also to be found wherever my email address was scraped from so I just wanted to warn other list members about this scam in case they receive similar emails. (I received the scam email directly, not via the cctech listserver). Regards, Peter Coghlan. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 8 14:19:12 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 12:19:12 -0800 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: I?ve been getting those messages for a few months now and nothing bad has happened yet. ;-) TTFN - Guy > On Jan 8, 2019, at 12:03 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > About two hours ago, I received an email to the address I only use for > cctech/cctalk. > > It claimed my email account had been hacked and threatened all sorts of > dire consequences if I didn't deposit $1000 in bitcoins in some place within > 48 hours. > > I am 100% certain that the claims in the message are completely bogus and > none of the threats will be carried out. > > It is likely that email addresses belonging to other list members are also > to be found wherever my email address was scraped from so I just wanted to > warn other list members about this scam in case they receive similar emails. > > (I received the scam email directly, not via the cctech listserver). > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From kevin at 128.ca Tue Jan 8 14:20:35 2019 From: kevin at 128.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 20:20:35 +0000 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Delete it don?t respond and ignore it.. been getting them too.. change your password If your that concerned.. it?s a fishing trip.. Cheers ?On 08.01.19, 21:19, "cctalk on behalf of Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk" wrote: I?ve been getting those messages for a few months now and nothing bad has happened yet. ;-) TTFN - Guy > On Jan 8, 2019, at 12:03 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > About two hours ago, I received an email to the address I only use for > cctech/cctalk. > > It claimed my email account had been hacked and threatened all sorts of > dire consequences if I didn't deposit $1000 in bitcoins in some place within > 48 hours. > > I am 100% certain that the claims in the message are completely bogus and > none of the threats will be carried out. > > It is likely that email addresses belonging to other list members are also > to be found wherever my email address was scraped from so I just wanted to > warn other list members about this scam in case they receive similar emails. > > (I received the scam email directly, not via the cctech listserver). > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From kd7bcy at kd7bcy.com Tue Jan 8 14:25:14 2019 From: kd7bcy at kd7bcy.com (John Rollins) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 12:25:14 -0800 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> I have received numerous such emails. They are all junk and not worth reading or being concerned about. They compile lists of email addresses, usually from old hacks, and then claim they have your password. Sometimes the password is included in the email - sometimes it is an out of date password that was valid when a site was hacked(so you can see there COULD be an issue with passwords that don?t get changed regularly, or that get re-used at multiple sites/servers) - often a site password while they claim it to be an email password. They claim to have hacked into your computer somehow using that information and are threatening to release ?compromising information? that doesn?t actually exist. That they found an address used only for a certain mailing list makes it more interesting. Doing a quick Google search it looks like the list archives can be searched through, and while the addresses appear to be slightly obfuscated using ?at? instead of ?@?, it?s feasible that the address was picked up by a random email address scraping of web data. > On Jan 8, 2019, at 12:03, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > About two hours ago, I received an email to the address I only use for > cctech/cctalk. > > It claimed my email account had been hacked and threatened all sorts of > dire consequences if I didn't deposit $1000 in bitcoins in some place within > 48 hours. > > I am 100% certain that the claims in the message are completely bogus and > none of the threats will be carried out. > > It is likely that email addresses belonging to other list members are also > to be found wherever my email address was scraped from so I just wanted to > warn other list members about this scam in case they receive similar emails. > > (I received the scam email directly, not via the cctech listserver). From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 8 14:31:26 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 12:31:26 -0800 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 1/8/19 12:20 PM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: > Delete it don?t respond and ignore it.. been getting them too.. change your password > If your that concerned.. it?s a fishing trip.. Yeah, I get the one occasionally that claims to have compromising video taken with my PC's webcam. Except, of course, my computer doesn't have and never has had a webcam. About the most persistent spam that I receive on my cctalk email are ads from an outfit offering cheap Canadian drugs. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 8 14:41:00 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 13:41:00 -0700 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> Message-ID: On 01/08/2019 01:25 PM, John Rollins via cctalk wrote: > That they found an address used only for a certain mailing list makes > it more interesting. Doing a quick Google search it looks like the list > archives can be searched through, and while the addresses appear to be > slightly obfuscated using ?at? instead of ?@?, it?s feasible > that the address was picked up by a random email address scraping of > web data. I've wondered if some unscrupulous person has subscribed to the list so that they can receive a steady stream of email addresses that they can potentially send spam / phishing emails to. I don't remember ever getting one of these types of messages. So I can't comment about them with anything other than 2nd (or more) hand knowledge. Though I run fairly tight anti-spam / anti-virus configuration on my server. I would actually be interested in seeing full messages source, including headers, for some of the messages. (If anyone is willing and interested in sharing.) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 15:09:43 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 16:09:43 -0500 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> Message-ID: <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> On 01/08/2019 03:41 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 01/08/2019 01:25 PM, John Rollins via cctalk wrote: >> That they found an address used only for a certain mailing list makes >> it more interesting. Doing a quick Google search it looks like the >> list archives can be searched through, and while the addresses appear >> to be slightly obfuscated using ?at? instead of ?@?, it?s feasible >> that the address was picked up by a random email address scraping of >> web data. > > I've wondered if some unscrupulous person has subscribed to the list > so that they can receive a steady stream of email addresses that they > can potentially send spam / phishing emails to. > > I don't remember ever getting one of these types of messages.? So I > can't comment about them with anything other than 2nd (or more) hand > knowledge.? Though I run fairly tight anti-spam / anti-virus > configuration on my server. > > I would actually be interested in seeing full messages source, > including headers, for some of the messages.? (If anyone is willing > and interested in sharing.) > I to have received that phishing attempt many times. Its actually funny.? The password given is three yahoo (groups) hacks ago (about 10 years) but the email address used was a public one way reflector (arrl.net).? So all and all its a crude phishing attempt.? I write down old passwords to keep from reuse and I use long mixed ones.? So I know it was from that and meaningless. The source is useless as the address is a bogus hack as well. Same claims of rude and crude caught off the camera save for the systems use never had one or are blocked/disconnected(laptops) and at best a stupid threat. I run linux on multiple flavors/platforms so typical M$ hacks don't fly either. I was tempted to buy the smallest bitcoin possible maybe 0.1 cent (1 milliDollar) for laughs and send that as they deserve the very least for a dumb hack. Ignore the phoolz and if the password matches current change it consider changing them periodically. A= From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Jan 8 15:23:24 2019 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 21:23:24 +0000 Subject: OT? Upper limits of FSB In-Reply-To: References: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com> <1B9BC890-8E94-4184-A6F8-6AAD35F5F924@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5DFF216A-EC2A-4071-814F-1ED1F56693A2@swri.edu> > On Jan 6, 2019, at 1:31 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > Surprisingly, this is actually good for older languages like Forth that are fugal with RAM. Why so (why surprising, I mean)? Understood an unrolled loop executes faster, RISC instruction sets have lower information density than CISC instruction sets and therefore bigger RAM footprint, and look-up tables are faster than long division (or working an infinite series for a transcendental function?). But I?ve been worried for a while that the lesson many software engineers are learning is (more RAM usage) == (faster execution) and I don?t think that?s a valid lesson. Dwight, thanks for pointing out the counter-example! From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 8 15:29:47 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 14:29:47 -0700 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/08/2019 02:09 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > Its actually funny. The password given is three yahoo (groups) hacks > ago (about 10 years) but the email address used was a public one way > reflector (arrl.net). So you are (or were) a licensed ham. 73 to you. :-) > So all and all its a crude phishing attempt. I write down old passwords > to keep from reuse and I use long mixed ones. So I know it was from > that and meaningless. Hopefully you keep that list in a way that's not cleartext on your computer. I too have lists of old passwords in my password vault. > The source is useless as the address is a bogus hack as well. I'm still curious. Mainly because I run my own mail server and wonder if the messages would have been stopped by my filtering. > Same claims of rude and crude caught off the camera save for the systems > use never had one or are blocked/disconnected(laptops) and at best a > stupid threat. I run linux on multiple flavors/platforms so typical M$ > hacks don't fly either. Scare tactics. > I was tempted to buy the smallest bitcoin possible maybe 0.1 cent (1 > milliDollar) for laughs and send that as they deserve the very least > for a dumb hack. I would avoid doing anything good to the miscreants. > Ignore the phoolz and if the password matches current change it. Yep. > consider changing them periodically. I thought there had been some research and reports, particularly from NIST (?) about a year ago where /forced/ periodic password changes were actually a bad thing. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 8 15:31:23 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 13:31:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> Few people (but most are right here) can recite PI to enough digits to >> reach the level of inaccuracy. And those who believe that PI is >> exactly 22/7 are unaffected by FDIV. (YES, some schools do still teach >> that!) On Tue, 8 Jan 2019, Eric Korpela wrote: > Really? I find it hard to believe any schools taught that as anything > other than an approximation. I first encountered it about 60 years ago, in fifth grade. Our textbook said, "PI is about 3.1416 or 22/7." Our teacher insisted that that sentence meant "PI is about 3.1416, or exactly 22/7." I argued it. I pointed out that 22/7 was about 3.1429, and "why would they say 'about 3.1416' instead of 'about 3.1429' if it were actually 22/7?" I got sent to the principal's office. My father, who COULD recite a dozen digits of PI gave me a hard time about "staying out of trouble". I thought that that was the last of 22/7, other than that my classmates had been subjected to "lies told to children". In 1983 - 2013, I taught in the community college. One of my courses was [BEGINNING] "Computer Math". The students were mostly high school graduates 18-25 years old, adults seeking career change or enhancement, and a rare few there for recreational education. About every other semester, I would have a student who had been taught "exactly 22/7"! One guy admitted that he had just never bothered to divide it out. Once he did, he understood the concept of "approximation", did his homework, and found better ones, like 355/113. A silly little exercise to get across the concept of approximation was to get them to divide 1 by 3, write down the result, then clear, and multiply that result times 3. "What is WRONG with that calculator?" :-) Once they grasped a comparison to "rounding", "approximation" wasn't so alien. They all thought that they knew binary, but many were unaware of octal or hexadecimal! Hardly any had any idea about NEGATIVE numbers! - "don't you just use a minus sign?", which I easily changed into the concept of a sign bit, followed by deriving one's complement and then two's complement by pointing out that it would be useful to have a bit pattern that we could add to a number to get zero. "The overflow?? WHAT HAPPENS when the odometer of your car gets to all 9's? If you add one, you have a new car? Only way that I ever have 0 on MY odometer! Trivial homework assignment: how many more miles do you need to drive to get zero on your odometer?" Virtually NONE of them had any clue about how to represent non-integers, or even that non-integers COULD be represented in binary! THAT is further exacerbated by the WINDOZE Calculator that switches to INTEGERS-ONLY in "Programmer" mode! I put my usual grid of 8 boxes on the board, then a dot and another grid. "It is NOT a 'decimal point'! You can call it a 'period', but it's really a 'binary point' or more generally, a 'radix point'" We did a whole bunch of simple fractions, such as 3.5, 1.375, etc. Then I talked about ridiculously large or small numbers, and reminded them of "scientific notation", and we launched into floating point representation. One of my homework assignments was the IEE single precision floating point bit pattern for PI. And, why bother to memorize a dozen digits of PI, when you could just memorize a few hundred characters of a macro that will produce it? Or wait for a infinite series to converge. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From alan at alanlee.org Tue Jan 8 15:37:40 2019 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2019 16:37:40 -0500 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: There is a special place in hell for spammers. There is an even more special place lower in hell for web site builders that store plain-text passwords rather than a one-way salted hash of a password. You know, the least a site can do for my password is use mid 1970s state of the art technology. Some of the passwords given in these fishing emails, while unique and uncompromising, reveal the site I've used them on that was hacked. Like Monster.com. Every site is not immune from attacks and eventually compromise. I can live with that. I just hope there are no more that have !!!! USER'S PLAIN TEXT PASSWORD ----> HERE <---- !!!! in the middle of the breached data. -Alan On 2019-01-08 15:31, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/8/19 12:20 PM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: >> Delete it don?t respond and ignore it.. been getting them too.. change >> your password >> If your that concerned.. it?s a fishing trip.. > > Yeah, I get the one occasionally that claims to have compromising video > taken with my PC's webcam. Except, of course, my computer doesn't > have > and never has had a webcam. > > About the most persistent spam that I receive on my cctalk email are > ads > from an outfit offering cheap Canadian drugs. > > --Chuck From db at db.net Tue Jan 8 15:40:16 2019 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 16:40:16 -0500 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20190108214016.GA25615@night.db.net> On Tue, Jan 08, 2019 at 02:29:47PM -0700, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 01/08/2019 02:09 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > Its actually funny. The password given is three yahoo (groups) hacks > > ago (about 10 years) but the email address used was a public one way > > reflector (arrl.net). > > So you are (or were) a licensed ham. 73 to you. :-) She's not the only one. ;) The one thing that does bother me about these scams is they do work despite our best efforts at informing people of the scam. > > > Same claims of rude and crude caught off the camera save for the systems > > use never had one or are blocked/disconnected(laptops) and at best a > > stupid threat. I run linux on multiple flavors/platforms so typical M$ FreeBSD on all my platforms. Same. The usual hacks don't bother me. > > I was tempted to buy the smallest bitcoin possible maybe 0.1 cent (1 > > milliDollar) for laughs and send that as they deserve the very least > > for a dumb hack. > > I would avoid doing anything good to the miscreants. ditto. Unless the cops are doing it to catch the .... {fill in swear word} I'd stay well away. > > consider changing them periodically. > > I thought there had been some research and reports, particularly from > NIST (?) about a year ago where /forced/ periodic password changes were > actually a bad thing. Correct. What happens is people start rotating passwords 12345 23451 etc. that sort of thing. Bad. But not so bad if you are actually careful to use good passwords you never re-use. Certainly never re-use a password for more than one purpose. > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://artemis.db.net/~db From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Jan 8 15:11:23 2019 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2019 21:11:23 +0000 (WET) Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01R1S8H0PB6M8WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/8/19 12:20 PM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: > > Delete it don?t respond and ignore it.. been getting them too.. change your password > > If your that concerned.. it?s a fishing trip.. > My concern is for anyone on the mailing list who finds the the outrageous claims in these spams to be vaguely plausable and might be quitely sweating and considering paying these slimeballs while embarrassed to ask for advice first, thinking that they are the only ones receiving these emails. > > Yeah, I get the one occasionally that claims to have compromising video > taken with my PC's webcam. Except, of course, my computer doesn't have > and never has had a webcam. > This was the case with this particular spam, however, I don't even have a PC, let alone a webcam so I too can be absolutely certain they are talking nonsense. > > About the most persistent spam that I receive on my cctalk email are ads > from an outfit offering cheap Canadian drugs. > I worked in the email field for about 15 years. I operate my own mail server, I use lots of different email addresses for different purposes and I am very careful with them. I receive almost zero spam on my cctech/cctalk email address. In case anyone doesn't know because they receive a lot of spam direct to their email address, practically no spam at all is delivered through the classiccmp listserver - Jay does a tremendous job in stopping spam from arriving via that path. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > --Chuck > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 8 15:45:42 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 14:45:42 -0700 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <20190108214016.GA25615@night.db.net> References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> <20190108214016.GA25615@night.db.net> Message-ID: <87a6bcc2-92a5-4f6d-647f-24a3c621806e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 01/08/2019 02:40 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > Correct. What happens is people start rotating passwords 12345 23451 etc. > that sort of thing. Bad. Yep. I think people are also more willing, if not actually inclined, to memorize a better password if they can use it for more than 90 days. > But not so bad if you are actually careful to use good passwords you > never re-use. True. I would also think that the people that voluntarily change their passwords will have a significant overlap with the users that use good passwords. > Certainly never re-use a password for more than one purpose. True. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 15:45:44 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 15:45:44 -0600 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 2:31 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Yeah, I get the one occasionally that claims to have compromising video > taken with my PC's webcam. Except, of course, my computer doesn't have > and never has had a webcam. If you want a video of the back side of a band-aid, go right ahead and snarf video from my laptop. -ethan From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 8 15:52:02 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 14:52:02 -0700 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <01R1S8H0PB6M8WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <01R1S8H0PB6M8WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 01/08/2019 02:11 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > My concern is for anyone on the mailing list who finds the the outrageous > claims in these spams to be vaguely plausable and might be quitely > sweating and considering paying these slimeballs while embarrassed to > ask for advice first, thinking that they are the only ones receiving > these emails. True. > I worked in the email field for about 15 years. I operate my own mail > server, I use lots of different email addresses for different purposes > and I am very careful with them. I receive almost zero spam on my > cctech/cctalk email address. Agreed. > In case anyone doesn't know because they receive a lot of spam direct > to their email address, practically no spam at all is delivered through > the classiccmp listserver - Jay does a tremendous job in stopping spam > from arriving via that path. I wish more mailing lists were as diligent. I see a LOT of spam come through specific lists. More than I typically see in Usenet newsgroups. :-/ -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 8 15:53:23 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 16:53:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190108215323.93D0618C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller PS: > I could work to extract the core file Can PDP11GUI save output from the -11's console? If so, just say 'od core', and send me the output. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 8 16:02:28 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 14:02:28 -0800 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> Message-ID: On 1/8/19 12:41 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I've wondered if some unscrupulous person has subscribed to the list so that they can receive a steady stream of email > addresses why would they bother? every cctalk message at http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ has the poster's email adr From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 8 16:04:56 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 14:04:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> So all and all its a crude phishing attempt. I write down old passwords to >> keep from reuse and I use long mixed ones. So I know it was from that and >> meaningless. > Hopefully you keep that list in a way that's not cleartext on your computer. Posted on the wall, in clear line of sight of the webcam? They say that people haven't learned anything about computer security. But, the most common password is no longer "PASSWORD"! It is now "PASSWORD1". https://blog.codinghorror.com/content/images/2017/03/incorrect-password.jpg From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 8 16:07:17 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 15:07:17 -0700 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> Message-ID: On 01/08/2019 03:02 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > why would they bother? Laziness. > every cctalk message ... > has the poster's email adr What's easier to do: 1) Go find and repeatedly scrape mailing list archives for sending email addresses. 2) Subscribe one email address to the same mailing lists and have the messages delivered to you where you can have an automated process scrape the incoming messages. I know what I think has the better RoI and lower TCO. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jason at smbfc.net Tue Jan 8 16:20:14 2019 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 14:20:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jan 2019, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > What's easier to do: > > 1) Go find and repeatedly scrape mailing list archives for sending email > addresses. > > 2) Subscribe one email address to the same mailing lists and have the > messages delivered to you where you can have an automated process scrape the > incoming messages. > > I know what I think has the better RoI and lower TCO. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > Um, it's easiest to write one script which can scrape and harvest thousands of email archives everynight. So, 1 it is... --Jason From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 16:23:49 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 17:23:49 -0500 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/08/2019 04:29 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 01/08/2019 02:09 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: >> Its actually funny.? The password given is three yahoo (groups) hacks >> ago (about 10 years) but the email address used was a public one way >> reflector (arrl.net). > > So you are (or were) a licensed ham.? 73 to you.? :-) Still am.? Hence the reflector as mycall at arrl.net.? But the reply if there is one will be from a different address.? Anyone with a functional brain can look that up. > >> So all and all its a crude phishing attempt.? I write down old >> passwords to keep from reuse and I use long mixed ones.? So I know it >> was from that and meaningless. > > Hopefully you keep that list in a way that's not cleartext on your > computer. > Cleartext on paper in my handwriting... ok, that may mean loosely encrypted. Generally anything useful is walled off or encrypted.? I also maintain an air gapped archive.? Hardware is cheap and disk cheaper.? Someone hacks this machine with ransomware, I wipe and reboot as a 64gb disk is not big and not the motherlode. Better is the stuff on the VAX under VMS user account...? I put it on the net on occasion and the fun begins as the script kiddies try to log in.? Mind you need both an account name and a password longer than 15 chars.? Standard lockout after three fails is 15 minutes.? No Apache and other webby stuff plus Decnet over IP messes with them.??? Once I put up an VMS account with the directiories all write-locked? with virus copies (maybe a few megabytes of oldies) in it and a guest password it was funny to watch the access and then nothing from that IP. > I too have lists of old passwords in my password vault. > >> The source is useless as the address is a bogus hack as well. > > I'm still curious.? Mainly because I run my own mail server and wonder > if the messages would have been stopped by my filtering. > Like I said the reflector is public and they used the right call, easy to look up and verify. >> Same claims of rude and crude caught off the camera save for the >> systems use never had one or are blocked/disconnected(laptops) and at >> best a stupid threat. I run linux on multiple flavors/platforms so >> typical M$ hacks don't fly either. > > Scare tactics. > Or hilarity!? As a women it was funnier to read.? Like, really!?! >> I was tempted to buy the smallest bitcoin possible maybe 0.1 cent (1 >> milliDollar) for laughs and send that as they deserve the very least >> for a dumb hack. > > I would avoid doing anything good to the miscreants. A millibuck is a pFFT (raspberry noise) to someone demanding kilo bucks. I have mostly contempt for them.? Been at it longer too. > >> Ignore the phoolz and if the password matches current change it. > > Yep. The usual is that that password accessed as many as a dozen or more sites and accounts. If one is hacked then which one of the many if even remembered. >> consider changing them periodically. > > I thought there had been some research and reports, particularly from > NIST (?) about a year ago where /forced/ periodic password changes > were actually a bad thing. > > Yes, many when forced to do that on 30 or 90 day rotations use poor passwords (weak) or worse write them down and tape them under the keyboard.?? The interval can be random and long or anytime a hack has been reported somewhere even if not the known systems. ? I worked one place where "123" was a low level password for a decade and still every Monday I'd get called "did the password change?" because they forgot it.? If used from outside it got you mostly nothing and access to very slowest machines if you made it through the firewall (discrete hardware). Allison From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 8 16:28:43 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 14:28:43 -0800 Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/8/19 1:31 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > I first encountered it about 60 years ago, in fifth grade.? Our textbook > said, "PI is about 3.1416 or 22/7."? Our teacher insisted that that > sentence meant "PI is about 3.1416, or exactly 22/7."? I argued it.? I > pointed out that 22/7 was about 3.1429, and "why would they say 'about > 3.1416' instead of 'about 3.1429' if it were actually 22/7?"? I got sent > to the principal's office.? My father, who COULD recite a dozen digits > of PI gave me a hard time about "staying out of trouble". > 3.142 was good enough for Edward Elgar. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 8 16:33:04 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 14:33:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jan 2019, allison via cctalk wrote: > SStandard lockout after three fails i 15 minutes.? Howzbout: a quarter second lockout after a fail; double that for each subsequent fail. Three tries to get it right will not be inconvenienced. But, by 32 tries, it's up to a biillion seconds. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 8 16:43:52 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 14:43:52 -0800 Subject: OT? Upper limits of FSB In-Reply-To: <5DFF216A-EC2A-4071-814F-1ED1F56693A2@swri.edu> References: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com> <1B9BC890-8E94-4184-A6F8-6AAD35F5F924@gmail.com> <5DFF216A-EC2A-4071-814F-1ED1F56693A2@swri.edu> Message-ID: <2cbd2b66-7777-0c70-a232-9025138ca689@sydex.com> On 1/8/19 1:23 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: > Why so (why surprising, I mean)? Understood an unrolled loop executes > faster... That can't always be true, can it? I'm thinking of an architecture where the instruction cache is slow to fill and multiple overlapping operations are involved and branch prediction assumes a branch taken. I'd say it was very close in that case. --Chuck From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Jan 8 16:51:07 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 14:51:07 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <20190108215323.93D0618C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190108215323.93D0618C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7bc35bc2-fed3-8a0d-6fe6-0765e2073ade@fritzm.org> On 1/8/19 1:53 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Can PDP11GUI save output from the -11's console? If so, just say 'od core', > and send me the output. Assuming that doesn't create another core file... :-) I'll give it a go when I get home tonight. --FritzM. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 8 16:51:51 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 14:51:51 -0800 Subject: OT? Upper limits of FSB In-Reply-To: <2cbd2b66-7777-0c70-a232-9025138ca689@sydex.com> References: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com> <1B9BC890-8E94-4184-A6F8-6AAD35F5F924@gmail.com> <5DFF216A-EC2A-4071-814F-1ED1F56693A2@swri.edu> <2cbd2b66-7777-0c70-a232-9025138ca689@sydex.com> Message-ID: <11CB16EC-2EA5-49E4-9F34-84AF97E51BCF@shiresoft.com> Some architectures (I?m thinking of the latest Intel CPUs) have a small loop cache whose aim is to keep a loop entirely within that cache. That cache operates at the full speed of the instruction fetch/execute (actually I think it keeps the decoded uOps) cycles (e.g. you can?t go faster). L1 caches impose a penalty and of course there is the instruction decode time as well both of which are avoided. TTFN - Guy > On Jan 8, 2019, at 2:43 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/8/19 1:23 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: > >> Why so (why surprising, I mean)? Understood an unrolled loop executes >> faster... > > That can't always be true, can it? > > I'm thinking of an architecture where the instruction cache is slow to > fill and multiple overlapping operations are involved and branch > prediction assumes a branch taken. I'd say it was very close in that case. > > --Chuck > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 8 17:00:55 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 16:00:55 -0700 Subject: OT? Upper limits of FSB In-Reply-To: <11CB16EC-2EA5-49E4-9F34-84AF97E51BCF@shiresoft.com> References: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com> <1B9BC890-8E94-4184-A6F8-6AAD35F5F924@gmail.com> <5DFF216A-EC2A-4071-814F-1ED1F56693A2@swri.edu> <2cbd2b66-7777-0c70-a232-9025138ca689@sydex.com> <11CB16EC-2EA5-49E4-9F34-84AF97E51BCF@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <8c7eda75-74e9-4b88-10b2-a12a7e5fc315@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/8/2019 3:51 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > Some architectures (I?m thinking of the latest Intel CPUs) have a small loop cache > whose aim is to keep a loop entirely within that cache. That cache operates at the > full speed of the instruction fetch/execute (actually I think it keeps the decoded uOps) > cycles (e.g. you can?t go faster). L1 caches impose a penalty and of course there is > the instruction decode time as well both of which are avoided. > > TTFN - Guy I bet I/O loops throw every thing off. Ben. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 8 17:00:51 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 23:00:51 +0000 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: To Tell you the truth, I can't think of anything other than speed of calculating that should be done in floating point. The speed is because we've determined to waste silicon for floating point when we should really be using combined operation in integer that are designed to handle multiple arrays( and matices ), addition, multiplication and scaling as single instructions. If we had these operations, there would be little need for floating point. These would also do delayed operations that would wait for combining thing until the results were actually needed. This way things that the scaling wouldn't make sense could hold off until combining them actually made sense. Of course, making floating point a decimal operation is silly. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Monday, January 7, 2019 12:52 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs >> Few people (but most are right here) can recite PI to enough digits to >> reach the level of inaccuracy. And those who believe that PI is exactly >> 22/7 are unaffected by FDIV. (YES, some schools do still teach that!) On Mon, 7 Jan 2019, Johnny Eriksson via cctalk wrote: > Why remember the digits, when a small program can provide them? > > +0un qn"E20Un' 0Uh 0uv HK > Qn Qi<\+2*10+(Qq*qi)Ua 0LK Qi*2-1Uj Qa/QjUq Qa-(Qq*Qj)-2\10I$ Qi-1ui> > Qq/10Ut Qh+Qt+48Uw Qw-58"E48Uw %v' Qv"N:Qv,1^T' QwUv Qq-(Qt*10)Uh> > :Qv,1^T > !Can you figure out what this macro does before running it? It was > written by Stan Rabinowitz with modifications by Mark Bramhall and > appeared as the Macro of the Month in the Nov. 1977 issue of the TECO > SIG newsletter, the "Moby Munger". For information on the TECO Special > Interest Group, write to Stan at P.O. Box 76, Maynard, Mass. 01754! Interesting bit! > Why remember the digits, when a small program can provide them? Maybe, because remembering the first 80 or 90 digits is half as much work to remember or type in, as that macro. The current state of computer "science" "education" fails to even get the students to understand that floating point is a rounded off approximation. FDIV merely added a small unexpected further degradation to a representation that was already inaccurate, and was explicitly an approximation. They often represent a dollar and cents amount as floating point, just to avoid figuring out how to insert the PERIOD delimiter. Use of FDIV is inappropriate for calculating sales tax. NOT because of the FDIV errors, which are well within the portion that will be discarded in roundoff. It should not take until a third semester "Data Structures And Algorithms" class, or beyond, for them to learn to not use floating point for cash transaction processing. People who use 3.1416 or 22/7 for PI are not in a position to gripe as much as they did, about inaccuracies caused by FDIV. The point was that people were screaming about errors that were already irrelevant to the level of accuracy that they were using, in uses that were explicitly NOT INTENDED to be exact. I am building a base to make a patio table out of a CRASHED 24" RAMAC platter, that had been banged around with no effort to store properly for half a century. (Is there a better use for a CRASHED platter?, or a better way to display it than under glass as a rustic table top?) Neither a value of 3.14 for PI, nor FDIV, will further degrade my level of carpentry skills. I'm considering printing out and including a copy of the RAMAC plaque http://www.ed-thelen.org/RAMAC/RAMAC_Plaque_v40.pdf From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 8 17:00:04 2019 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 23:00:04 +0000 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <625c2367-5626-c7c1-e146-e5477cc81eb4@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/01/2019 21:37, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > There is a special place in hell for spammers.? There is an even more > special place lower in hell for web site builders that store plain-text > passwords rather than a one-way salted hash of a password. Oh, there's a worse hell -- I hope -- for the sort of Unix sysadmin (I won't mention Aaron's name ;-)) put in charge of a sizeable HPC cluster, decided to password protect it to ensure only a certain set of users would have access, somehow copied the passwords they used on the main system, and stored them in plain text on a related machine for his access control. He no longer works for the enterprise in question. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 8 17:04:16 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 15:04:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jan 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > 3.142 was good enough for Edward Elgar. Approximations are what is needed for real world use. How much accuracy do I need for making a patio table base for a RAMAC [CRASHED!] platter, using a handheld circular saw, and a guess of the kerf width? I have just always found it offensive that 22/7 wasn't properly identified as being an approximation! But, using a crude code of 'A' = 1, 'B' = 2, 'C' = 3, etc. "ELGAR" appears in PI at decimal digits 7608455 From abs at absd.org Tue Jan 8 17:05:51 2019 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 23:05:51 +0000 Subject: Anyone want an irman (Infrared to serial dongles) Message-ID: While tidying up I've found a few Irman infrared to serial dongles https://web.archive.org/web/20060314052558/http://www.evation.com/irman/index.html they connect via a 9 pin serial plug and then convert any consumer remote IR signals they receive into serial. No additional power required, good wide angle reception, open source driver still available https://sourceforge.net/projects/libirman/ Could make an interesting project for anyone who wants to control their VAX / S-100 / homebrew retro board with a serial port via a remote :) The company making them went away about a decade ago, so I'm counting that as in retro territory. I have four for the price of shipping if anyone is interested, based in London/UK. (Around 2000 we had an office music system based around a DNARD/Shark running mserv & irman where everyone had a random remote at their desk and could use it to rate/skip/queue something they liked, and the system generally trid to pick from music which most of the people currently connected liked... ahh, fun days :) David From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 8 17:07:28 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 18:07:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190108230728.D3D0C18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller PPS: > I could work to extract the core file I just checked, and the binary for the 'ls' command is what's called 'pure code'; i.e. the instructions are in a separate (potentially shared) block of memory from the process' data (un-shared). I don't recall off the top of my head whether the location of that shared block of memory is in the per-process swappable kernel data (which is included in the process core dump). I'll check tomorrow, when I'm not sick as a dog (pretty miserable right at the moment). It would be east to mod the OS to print all that info when that illegal instruction trap happens - but that will change the size of the OS, so will probably change the location the process is at; so that might cause the symptoms to change. Ditto for recompilling 'ls' to make it a unified blob. > Assuming that doesn't create another core file... :-) :-) Don't worry, we'll nail it! Noel From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Jan 8 17:16:09 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 15:16:09 -0800 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> Message-ID: <28a67230-eb04-63ef-3197-219750f2d958@fritzm.org> They need to tune the pitch to the audience: "We see that you ran 'EDITH' with three sense switches activated..." From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Jan 8 17:22:27 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 15:22:27 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <20190108230728.D3D0C18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190108230728.D3D0C18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/8/19 3:07 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > :-) Don't worry, we'll nail it! Oh yes, it would be much less fun if it were all working. The finding and fixing is the best part :-) Rest up and feel better soon, Noel! --FritzM. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 8 18:21:59 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 16:21:59 -0800 Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/8/19 3:04 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > But, using a crude code of 'A' = 1, 'B' = 2, 'C' = 3, etc. > "ELGAR" appears in PI at decimal digits 7608455 I suspect that Pi, to a sufficient number of places could decode anyone's surname. No, I'm thinking of "Nimrod"... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 8 18:29:19 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 16:29:19 -0800 Subject: Anyone want an irman (Infrared to serial dongles) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/8/19 3:05 PM, David Brownlee via cctalk wrote: > While tidying up I've found a few Irman infrared to serial dongles > > https://web.archive.org/web/20060314052558/http://www.evation.com/irman/index.html > > they connect via a 9 pin serial plug and then convert any consumer > remote IR signals they receive into serial. I just posted on github a little project that takes a cheap surplus (my last ones cost $5 NOS) IBM iPoint IR keyboard and converts it to PS/2 keyboard protocol using a cheap STM32F103 "Blue Pill" and a 3-terminal 38KHz IR receiver. I'm currently writing the USB version which will support the "nipple mouse" as well. The keyboards aren't bad--they're made by Silitek ca. 1992 and have a decent feel for a rubber dome keyboard. The point is that with modern MCUs, any IR stuff is easy-peasy. My little Chinese LCR tester even reads and displays IR codes. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 8 19:24:19 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 01:24:19 +0000 Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> , Message-ID: There is an algorithm to calculate any digit of PI as long as it is in HEX ( or base 16 ). So far no one has been able to do this in a decimal system. It would seem that out binary computers were close to right in the first place. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2019 4:21 PM To: Fred Cisin via cctalk Subject: Re: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for On 1/8/19 3:04 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > But, using a crude code of 'A' = 1, 'B' = 2, 'C' = 3, etc. > "ELGAR" appears in PI at decimal digits 7608455 I suspect that Pi, to a sufficient number of places could decode anyone's surname. No, I'm thinking of "Nimrod"... --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 8 19:50:30 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 18:50:30 -0700 Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <217c4dbb-fe93-95ad-78e6-56f0d312db27@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/8/2019 6:24 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > There is an algorithm to calculate any digit of PI as long as it is in HEX ( or base 16 ). So far no one has been able to do this in a decimal system. It would seem that out binary computers were close to right in the first place. > Dwight > What is the value of PI when you pound a SQUARE peg in a ROUND HOLE? +-+ | | +-+ Ben. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jan 8 20:07:24 2019 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 21:07:24 -0500 Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: <217c4dbb-fe93-95ad-78e6-56f0d312db27@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> <217c4dbb-fe93-95ad-78e6-56f0d312db27@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0dcab60e-832c-4abb-8806-79ae1d146a19@telegraphics.com.au> On 2019-01-08 8:50 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 1/8/2019 6:24 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> There is an algorithm to calculate any digit of PI as long as it is in >> HEX ( or base 16 ). So far no one has been able to do this in a >> decimal system. It would seem that out binary computers were close to >> right in the first place. >> Dwight >> > > What is the value of PI when you pound a SQUARE peg in a ROUND HOLE? You're definitely asking in the right place. > ?+-+ > |? | > ?+-+ > > Ben. > > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jan 8 20:39:08 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2019 20:39:08 -0600 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <5C355ECC.5000609@pico-systems.com> On 01/08/2019 02:03 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > About two hours ago, I received an email to the address I only use for > cctech/cctalk. > > It claimed my email account had been hacked and threatened all sorts of > dire consequences if I didn't deposit $1000 in bitcoins in some place within > 48 hours. > > They usually say "this message was sent from your account" as proof you've been hacked, but at least for me, the received-from address is NOT mine. So, I know the thing is bogus. This particular scam is quite common right now. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jan 8 20:40:57 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2019 20:40:57 -0600 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C355F39.4060907@pico-systems.com> On 01/08/2019 03:09 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > I would actually be interested in seeing full messages source, > including headers, for some of the messages. (If anyone is willing > and interested in sharing.) > > Sure, I could send you a bunch. Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 8 20:56:13 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 18:56:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've heard quit a bit about that scam, but I haven't gotten that one. The really sad part is that I'm not doing anything that I could be blackmailed about. THAT is depressing. (Crypto-locker, etc. is EXTORTION, not blackmail) From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jan 8 20:56:34 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2019 20:56:34 -0600 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C3562E2.408@pico-systems.com> On 01/08/2019 04:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 8 Jan 2019, allison via cctalk wrote: >> SStandard lockout after three fails i 15 minutes.? > > Howzbout: > a quarter second lockout after a fail; > double that for each subsequent fail. > Three tries to get it right will not be inconvenienced. > But, by 32 tries, it's up to a biillion seconds. > Interesting observation I made a few years ago. I run a web store, and was being inundated with ssh login attempts. About 1000/day! I decided this was serious, they'd eventually get lucky. So, searching available software, I found denyhosts. It checks the logs for login failures, and after a set threshold, it puts the source IP into the hosts.deny list, and your machine effectively disappears from that source IP's view. I set the rules very strictly, so that after 3 login failures over a 2 month span, that IP was blocked for a year. Something very interesting happened. The number of attempts did not diminish immediately, as the botnets had a large number of compromised machines. But, suddenly, two weeks to the EXACT HOUR when I set up denyhosts, the attacks dropped from 1000/day to 3! Just like flipping a switch! So, these hackers have a dark net list somewhere where they trade IP addresses of machines they would like to hack, and what they can figure out about the security measures implemented on them. When they have demonstrated by coordinated attempts that your lockout horizon is over two weeks, they put out the word that your site is not going to bear any fruit. I currently have 9000-some blocked IPs in hosts.deny, I wonder how much that slows down my store. Ugh, the stuff we are forced to go through. Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 8 21:39:57 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 19:39:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <5C3562E2.408@pico-systems.com> References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> <5C3562E2.408@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: >>> SStandard lockout after three fails i 15 minutes.? >> Howzbout: >> a quarter second lockout after a fail; >> double that for each subsequent fail. >> Three tries to get it right will not be inconvenienced. >> But, by 32 tries, it's up to a billion seconds. On Tue, 8 Jan 2019, Jon Elson wrote: > IP's view. I set the rules very strictly, so that after 3 login failures > over a 2 month span, that IP was blocked for a year. 3 failures is not enough for some legitimate human failings. I occasionally will forget a password, and make 4 or 5 tries; and then, a few days later, remember it. So, I MUCH prefer the concept of a logarithmically increasing lockout, starting small. Maybe as little as a millisecond, to permit a REASONABLE number of "maybe it was...", but thoroughly block brute force and dictionary/list attempts. about two dozen tries would give that year. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 8 21:42:28 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 20:42:28 -0700 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <5C3562E2.408@pico-systems.com> References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> <5C3562E2.408@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 1/8/19 7:56 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Interesting observation I made a few years ago.? I run a web store, and > was being inundated with ssh login attempts. About 1000/day!? I decided > this was serious, they'd eventually get lucky. It's really hard for them to get lucky if you don't allow password based authentication. ;-) It's also even harder for them to get lucky if you move your SSH daemon to an alternate port and / or put it behind port knocking / single packet authorization. }:-) > So, searching available software, I found denyhosts.? It checks the logs > for login failures, and after a set threshold, it puts the source IP > into the hosts.deny list, and your machine effectively disappears from > that source IP's view. Yes and no. DenyHosts is a useful tool. But hosts.deny / hosts.allow is TCP Wrappers. Your services needs to both support and be configured to use TCP Wrappers. Not everything is compiled with support for, or configured to use, TCP Wrappers. I personally prefer to add reject route and enable reverse path filtering. That operates at a lower level and protects EVERYTHING on the system without requiring any feature, like TCP Wrappers. > I set the rules very strictly, so that after 3 login failures over a 2 > month span, that IP was blocked for a year. Something very interesting > happened. I think that your rule logic could just as easily be applied to reject routes. > The number of attempts did not diminish immediately, as the botnets had > a large number of compromised machines.? But, suddenly, two weeks to the > EXACT HOUR when I set up denyhosts, the attacks dropped from 1000/day to > 3!? Just like flipping a switch! Intriguing. > So, these hackers have a dark net list somewhere where they trade IP > addresses of machines they would like to hack, and what they can figure > out about the security measures implemented on them. When they have > demonstrated by coordinated attempts that your lockout horizon is over > two weeks, they put out the word that your site is not going to bear > any fruit. Yep. Black hats communicate with each other just like white hats do. Of course, it could have been one bot-net & bot-herder too. I've heard tell of bots that 300,000 bots. > I currently have 9000-some blocked IPs in hosts.deny, I wonder how much > that slows down my store. I doubt much at all. (Assuming that your web server supports and is using TCP Wrappers.) > Ugh, the stuff we are forced to go through. Yep. Oy Vey comes to mind. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 8 21:47:25 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 20:47:25 -0700 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> <5C3562E2.408@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 1/8/19 8:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > 3 failures is not enough for some legitimate human failings. There's a high chance for false positives there. > I occasionally will forget a password, and make 4 or 5 tries; and then, > a few days later, remember it. I wonder if it's three password attempts (likely in a single connection) or three failed connections. I could see how three failed connections would suffice, as that would be nine password attempts. > So, I MUCH prefer the concept of a logarithmically increasing lockout, > starting small. Maybe as little as a millisecond, to permit a REASONABLE > number of "maybe it was...", but thoroughly block brute force and > dictionary/list attempts. I created a fancy IPTables rule set that used the recent match extension to dynamically (in kernel without any files on the drive) produce back out period. I don't remember the exact count of things, or the timings. But I do recall that it was something like 5 minutes, 30 minutes, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year. I don't think I had permanent. (Maybe I did. It's been 15+ years.) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Jan 8 22:18:53 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 04:18:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Anyone want an irman (Infrared to serial dongles) References: <1789821842.15364093.1547007533267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1789821842.15364093.1547007533267@mail.yahoo.com> Chuck we would like a couple..? ed at smecc Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 1/8/19 3:05 PM, David Brownlee via cctalk wrote: > While tidying up I've found a few Irman infrared to serial dongles > > https://web.archive.org/web/20060314052558/http://www.evation.com/irman/index.html > > they connect via a 9 pin serial plug and then convert any consumer > remote IR signals they receive into serial. I just posted on github a little project that takes a cheap surplus (my last ones cost $5 NOS) IBM iPoint IR keyboard and converts it to PS/2 keyboard protocol using a cheap STM32F103 "Blue Pill" and a 3-terminal 38KHz IR receiver.? I'm currently writing the USB version which will support the "nipple mouse" as well. The keyboards aren't bad--they're made by Silitek ca. 1992 and have a decent feel for a rubber dome keyboard. The point is that with modern MCUs, any IR stuff is easy-peasy.? My little Chinese LCR tester even reads and displays IR codes. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 8 22:34:28 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 20:34:28 -0800 Subject: Anyone want an irman (Infrared to serial dongles) In-Reply-To: <1789821842.15364093.1547007533267@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1789821842.15364093.1547007533267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1789821842.15364093.1547007533267@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56879ae1-0324-0e70-9f02-cd5384530cdc@sydex.com> On 1/8/19 8:18 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Chuck we would like a couple..? ed at smecc For the keyboards, my source is Electronics Goldmine (https://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/) for the keyboards. Usually $10 each, but go on sale every now and then for $5. "Blue Pills" can be gotten off of ebay or aliexpress. I use a 38 kHz TSOP4838 DIP-3 IR Receiver. For the USB version, it's mostly a matter of soldering on the sensor to the Blue Pill and programming it. So no custom boards or anything. I like cheap. --Chuck From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Jan 8 22:43:11 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2019 15:43:11 +1100 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <5C3562E2.408@pico-systems.com> References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190109154311.00dff438@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 08:56 PM 8/01/2019 -0600, you wrote: >On 01/08/2019 04:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, 8 Jan 2019, allison via cctalk wrote: >>> SStandard lockout after three fails i 15 minutes.??? >> >> Howzbout: >> a quarter second lockout after a fail; >> double that for each subsequent fail. >> Three tries to get it right will not be inconvenienced. >> But, by 32 tries, it's up to a biillion seconds. >> >Interesting observation I made a few years ago. I run a web >store, and was being inundated with ssh login attempts. >About 1000/day! I decided this was serious, they'd >eventually get lucky. >So, searching available software, I found denyhosts. It >checks the logs for login failures, and after a set >threshold, it puts the source IP into the hosts.deny list, >and your machine effectively disappears from that source >IP's view. I set the rules very strictly, so that after 3 >login failures over a 2 month span, that IP was blocked for >a year. Something very interesting happened. >The number of attempts did not diminish immediately, as the >botnets had a large number of compromised machines. But, >suddenly, two weeks to the EXACT HOUR when I set up >denyhosts, the attacks dropped from 1000/day to 3! Just >like flipping a switch! So, these hackers have a dark net >list somewhere where they trade IP addresses of machines >they would like to hack, and what they can figure out about >the security measures implemented on them. When they have >demonstrated by coordinated attempts that your lockout >horizon is over two weeks, they put out the word that your >site is not going to bear any fruit. > >I currently have 9000-some blocked IPs in hosts.deny, I >wonder how much that slows down my store. Ugh, the stuff we >are forced to go through. > >Jon I've been receiving the same 'hacked your account, sending this from your account, send bitcoins' scam emails for a while. They are NOT from 'my account' (what does that even mean?) although the sender email address is same as one or more of mine. But that is spoofable. I ignore them. I can see all the headers, which include lines like: X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3022 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3022 Since I'd rather die than use MS Outlook Express, or even install it an any system of mine, I know they lie (and for other reasons.) Recently one quoted 'my password' as evidence. It's a password I used on a porn site long ago, and that site changed hands and became a junk site sometime since. Maybe the new owners branched into extortion scams? I also at times receive a lot of scamming phone calls to my landline. Sometimes several a day. These have such a consistent format that I'm sure they must come from some group, even though they use different names. The phone rings, I pick up, there's a variable duration interval of silence, then a pooiip! popping sound (their system connecting this call to one of their operators, now that I answered), then a usually very Indian sounding voice (M or F) says something like "Hello, this is Microsoft security service" or "Hello this is product testing group." I never bother to go along with it to see what their intent is. Just hang up usually. We all know the government has total surveilance of all electronic communications. Don't argue, this is not a 'conspiracy theory'. I've even had dinner with a guy who was my interpreter wife's boss at the time, as head of the Sydney branch of Australia's national crime commission's intercepts division. Discussed the Echelon system (as it was named then) system with him, which he acknowledged existed. I asked so, what percentage of ALL communications (voice and digital) does the system capture and analyze for keywords? (Echelon used a 'dictionary' of keywords and phrases of interest, put together each week by the NATO powers, and shared among them all. Intercepts in each country are done on coms backbones, with each site existing as a diplomatic enclave, manned by intelligence staff who are acting on behalf of 'foreign allies' hence getting around local surveilance legal limitations. Any intelligence of interest is passed to local intelligence services as a diplomatic communication, so the local gov was not 'spying on their own citizens.' Ha ha ha. It sucks, but that is how it worked nearly 20 years ago. Certainly much worse now. I don't know what the equivalent system is called these days.) His answer: around 98%. Now here's the thing. Another interesting observation one could make: You'd think these kind of scamming emails and phone calls should be illegal, and easily prosecutable. You'd think it would require almost no effort at all from law enforcement and coms carriers, to identify the sources. Given that they have total transparency of the telecoms infrastructure. Not to mention that if Indian call centers are involved there would be international carrier contracts and national entry points that would stand out like searchlights in traffic analysis. Same goes for Asian paid web click farms, etc. Even botnets with encrypted command channels - I can't believe it can be technically impossible to shut these down. So, how does this bullsh*t continue? One can only conclude that the large scale scamming operations are conducted with the knowledge of, and probably complicity of, government at some level. The real question is why. I can make guesses about that too. But doubt many here would find it comfortable. Or on topic. Guy From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Jan 8 22:51:11 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2019 15:51:11 +1100 Subject: Anyone want an irman (Infrared to serial dongles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190109155111.01141728@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 11:05 PM 8/01/2019 +0000, you wrote: >While tidying up I've found a few Irman infrared to serial dongles > >https://web.archive.org/web/20060314052558/http://www.evation.com/irman/index.html > >they connect via a 9 pin serial plug and then convert any consumer >remote IR signals they receive into serial. > >No additional power required, good wide angle reception, open source >driver still available > >https://sourceforge.net/projects/libirman/ > >Could make an interesting project for anyone who wants to control >their VAX / S-100 / homebrew retro board with a serial port via a >remote :) > >The company making them went away about a decade ago, so I'm counting >that as in retro territory. > >I have four for the price of shipping if anyone is interested, based >in London/UK. > >(Around 2000 we had an office music system based around a DNARD/Shark >running mserv & irman where everyone had a random remote at their desk >and could use it to rate/skip/queue something they liked, and the >system generally trid to pick from music which most of the people >currently connected liked... ahh, fun days :) > >David I'll definitely take one. Or preferably two, if that doesn't clash with anyone else wanting one. I'll send my address via private email. Can you accept Paypal for the postage? Guy From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 22:58:09 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 04:58:09 +0000 Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 9:31 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I first encountered it about 60 years ago, in fifth grade. Our textbook > said, "PI is about 3.1416 or 22/7." Our teacher insisted that that > sentence meant "PI is about 3.1416, or exactly 22/7." I argued it. I > pointed out that 22/7 was about 3.1429, and "why would they say 'about > 3.1416' instead of 'about 3.1429' if it were actually 22/7?" I got sent > to the principal's office. My father, who COULD recite a dozen digits of > PI gave me a hard time about "staying out of trouble". Nice to know that clueless schoolteachers are not limited to the UK. I had my fair share of them years ago... > About every other semester, I would have a student who had been taught > "exactly 22/7"! One guy admitted that he had just never bothered to > divide it out. Once he did, he understood the concept of > "approximation", did his homework, and found better ones, like 355/113. As an aside, I find the 355/113 approximation useful if I need $\pi$ when doing metalwork and don't have a scientific calculator to hand (e.g. I've just got the HP16C that lives on my workbench). That approximation is good to 6 figures I think, which is way more accurate than I can machine metal to. > > A silly little exercise to get across the concept of approximation was to > get them to divide 1 by 3, write down the result, then clear, and multiply > that result times 3. "What is WRONG with that calculator?" :-) Once they > grasped a comparison to "rounding", "approximation" wasn't so alien. IIRC one of the manuals for the HP15C had a chapter on 'Why this calculator gives the wrong answers'. It covered things like rounding errors. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 8 23:15:41 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 21:15:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190109154311.00dff438@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> <3.0.6.32.20190109154311.00dff438@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2019, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > The phone rings, I pick up, there's a variable duration interval of silence, then a pooiip! popping > sound (their system connecting this call to one of their operators, now that I answered), then a > usually very Indian sounding voice (M or F) says something like "Hello, this is Microsoft security service" > or "Hello this is product testing group." > I never bother to go along with it to see what their intent is. Just hang up usually. "Windows Technical Department" "Windows Company" !!?! I had one jerk, with a very heavy accent claim to be Paul Allen! I said, "Is this about the money that you owe me?" and he hung up. (No, Paul Allen doesn't owe me any money) Oddly, they usually hang up if I say, "What kind of computer do you think that I have?" or "Do you think that I have a computer??" From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 9 00:21:40 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 22:21:40 -0800 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> <3.0.6.32.20190109154311.00dff438@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <0bf7de1a-9342-440a-f576-f53167321388@sydex.com> On 1/8/19 9:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > "Windows Technical Department" > "Windows Company"? !!?! > I used to get one of those calls every few days, but I'm using a screening service, so I haven't gotten one in months. Too bad! I used to have a lot of fun playing dumb. "Vindows" key? Where is that (I'm using an IBM Model M)? Now, go to your start menu and select "Run program". Huh? What do you mean "start menu"? (I'm running Linux) I have several more computers, would you like me to try them? Sometimes I could tie the scammer up for 15-20 minutes before he'd hang up, very often after uttering an obscenity. --Chuck From fritzm at fritzm.org Wed Jan 9 02:25:30 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 00:25:30 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: References: <20190108230728.D3D0C18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Hey Noel, Did get away with ?od? without generating a second core file ? sending to you in direct messsage! Also found and ran the appropriate MS11 MAINDEC that matches the vintage of my MS11-L board (a bit of an anachronism for an '11/45) and it is indeed indicating some sort of issue now, so will investigate that later in the week... --FritzM. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 03:13:47 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 10:13:47 +0100 Subject: Vintage-computing relevant IOBCC entry Message-ID: /* You are not expected to understand this. */ https://www.ioccc.org/2018/mills/hint.html -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 05:20:17 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 06:20:17 -0500 Subject: Vintage-computing relevant IOBCC entry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 9, 2019, 4:14 AM Liam Proven via cctalk /* You are not expected to understand this. */ > > https://www.ioccc.org/2018/mills/hint.html Wow, thorough. I attempted to port the same version of unix to an rl02 disk pack and to run on an actual 11/40. I was able to get ir to boot up to the # prompt but my system does not have a working EIS card to proceed any further. Bill > > From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 05:28:12 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 12:28:12 +0100 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 03:56, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > I've heard quit a bit about that scam, but I haven't gotten that one. Ditto on both. > The really sad part is that I'm not doing anything that I could be > blackmailed about. > THAT is depressing. Oh dear. Now I am feeling slightly depressed too. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 05:37:49 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 12:37:49 +0100 Subject: Vintage-computing relevant IOBCC entry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 12:20, Bill Degnan wrote: > > Wow, thorough. Isn't it? :-o > I attempted to port the same version of unix to an rl02 disk pack and to run on an actual 11/40. I was able to get ir to boot up to the # prompt but my system does not have a working EIS card to proceed any further. *Wow*. My hat is off to you. So, FTAOD -- this entrant to the 25th obfuscated C contest celebrates the 50th anniversary of C. It includes a PDP-7 emulator, running the first available known snapshot of T&R Unix. Then, *inside* that, it includes a PDP-11 emulator -- yes, that's right, a PDP-11 emulator for the PDP-7 -- and on that, it runs Unix v6, on which it can run the first ever obfuscated C contest winner. I found it quite astonishing. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jan 9 06:30:50 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2019 06:30:50 -0600 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <5C355ECC.5000609@pico-systems.com> References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <5C355ECC.5000609@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20190109124054.C6D15273E1@mx1.ezwind.net> At 08:39 PM 1/8/2019, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >This particular scam is quite common right now. Another variation shows your MySpace password from a decade ago, as proof they know your password - gambling that many people have used the same password for years and/or in many contexts. There was a leak of the MySpace passwords a few years ago. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jan 9 06:32:59 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2019 06:32:59 -0600 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <5C3562E2.408@pico-systems.com> References: <01R1S4W1O6B68WWK36@beyondthepale.ie> <741A1EFC-B0A3-4564-B0EE-1B4F804C3E20@kd7bcy.com> <873a6cb4-4f26-0b4d-b6aa-60becc6e4c1c@gmail.com> <5C3562E2.408@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20190109124057.6D6F3273E1@mx1.ezwind.net> At 08:56 PM 1/8/2019, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >I currently have 9000-some blocked IPs in hosts.deny, I wonder how much that slows down my store. Ugh, the stuff we are forced to go through. Now you've increased your chances by 9000x that someday someone will complain that they can't reach your site. You said "botnet" right? - John From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 9 06:53:08 2019 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 06:53:08 -0600 Subject: OT RE: Bogus "account hacked" message Message-ID: <00a701d4a81a$4539f7f0$cfade7d0$@classiccmp.org> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Foust via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 6:33 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Bogus "account hacked" message At 08:56 PM 1/8/2019, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >I currently have 9000-some blocked IPs in hosts.deny, I wonder how much that slows down my store. Ugh, the stuff we are forced to go through. Now you've increased your chances by 9000x that someday someone will complain that they can't reach your site. You said "botnet" right? - John From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 9 07:49:41 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 08:49:41 -0500 Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 8, 2019, at 11:58 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > ... > IIRC one of the manuals for the HP15C had a chapter on 'Why this > calculator gives the wrong answers'. It covered things like rounding > errors. > > -tony That reminds me of a nice old quote. "An electronic pocket calculator when used by a person unconversant with it will most probably give a wrong answer in 9 decimal places" -- Dr. Anand Prakash, 9 May 1975 Understanding rounding errors is perhaps the most significant part of "numerical methods", a subdivision of computer science not as widely known as it should be. I remember learning of the work of a scientist at DEC whose work was all about this: making the DEC math libraries not only efficient but accurate to the last bit. Apparently this isn't anywhere near as common as it should be. And I wonder how many computer models are used for answering important questions where the answers are significantly affected by numerical errors. Do the authors of those models know about these considerations? Maybe. Do the users of those models know? Probably not. paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 08:27:55 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 14:27:55 +0000 Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Recently, in the calculator group, a fellow has an older calculator and was using the power function. You know x^y. He'd put in 2^2 and got 3.99998 or something where the last digit was 2 off. He was worried that the calculator was bad. I explained to him that the calculator was fine. It was simply a rounding error. I explained that the calculator was not doing 2*2 and that it used some series or such to calculate the general case. Most calculators today have about 2 extra bits not shown to hide most rounding errors. Early calculators didn't have any extra digits. The Intel case was actually worse as its errors were often large and not just in the last digits, when they happened. The errors tended to cluster around odd integer values as well. When looking at all the possible numbers, the odds were small. When looking at integer values the odds were a lot larger and the errors were also larger. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 5:49 AM To: Tony Duell; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for > On Jan 8, 2019, at 11:58 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > ... > IIRC one of the manuals for the HP15C had a chapter on 'Why this > calculator gives the wrong answers'. It covered things like rounding > errors. > > -tony That reminds me of a nice old quote. "An electronic pocket calculator when used by a person unconversant with it will most probably give a wrong answer in 9 decimal places" -- Dr. Anand Prakash, 9 May 1975 Understanding rounding errors is perhaps the most significant part of "numerical methods", a subdivision of computer science not as widely known as it should be. I remember learning of the work of a scientist at DEC whose work was all about this: making the DEC math libraries not only efficient but accurate to the last bit. Apparently this isn't anywhere near as common as it should be. And I wonder how many computer models are used for answering important questions where the answers are significantly affected by numerical errors. Do the authors of those models know about these considerations? Maybe. Do the users of those models know? Probably not. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 9 09:17:09 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 10:17:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190109151709.3672318C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I don't recall off the top of my head whether the location of that > shared block of memory is in the per-process swappable kernel data > (which is included in the process core dump). So I checked, and the swappable per-process kernel data does in fact include pre-computed contents for all the memory management registers, so we'll be able to see (from the process core dump) where the code and data segments were. On another front, that error message ("Memory error") is produced when a process gets a 'memory management trap' (trap to 0250). This could be caused by any number of things (it's a pity we don't know the contents of SR0 when the trap happened, that would tell us exactly what the cause was). With working hardware+OS, it's usually the result of a bad pointer in the program. In a tested program like 'ls', I don't think that's the case. It's most likely caused by faulty memory, but it's also faintly possible that the MMU has an issue. I'll look at the process dump a little later today, and see if I see anything of significance. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 9 10:19:33 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 11:19:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190109161933.AC96618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > the swappable per-process kernel data does in fact include pre-computed > contents for all the memory management registers, so we'll be able to > see (from the process core dump) where the code and data segments were. Uh, no. The copies there are 'prototypes', later modified for actual use by adding in the actual address in main memory. Still trying to understand how that works - the code (in sureg() in main.c) is kind of obscure. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 9 10:20:58 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 11:20:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Vintage-computing relevant IOBCC entry Message-ID: <20190109162058.A2E1118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Degnan > I attempted to port the same version of unix to an rl02 disk pack and > to run on an actual 11/40. I was able to get ir to boot up to the # > prompt but my system does not have a working EIS card to proceed any > further. I"m incredibly surprised that you got to the prompt! First, the V6 RL bootstrap uses ASH, part of EIS. And then the C compiler makes extensive use of EIS instructions, so anything in C (the OS, 'init', 'sh', etc) may have EIS instructions in it. Noel From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Wed Jan 9 11:36:04 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 12:36:04 -0500 Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <39aea3e1-33f0-f414-0cc2-bd0d56958989@comcast.net> On 1/8/2019 7:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/8/19 3:04 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> But, using a crude code of 'A' = 1, 'B' = 2, 'C' = 3, etc. >> "ELGAR" appears in PI at decimal digits 7608455 > I suspect that Pi, to a sufficient number of places could decode > anyone's surname. > > No, I'm thinking of "Nimrod"... > > --Chuck > I always wondered how do people know that those computed digits of pi, out to millions and millions of digits, are correct? Do different algorithms or methods give the same answer? Doug From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 9 11:36:09 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2019 11:36:09 -0600 Subject: OT RE: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <00a701d4a81a$4539f7f0$cfade7d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <00a701d4a81a$4539f7f0$cfade7d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5C363109.3060609@pico-systems.com> On 01/09/2019 06:53 AM, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > > > > Now you've increased your chances by 9000x that someday someone will > complain that they can't reach your site. You said "botnet" right? > > Jay, I sent you a direct email a week ago (12/30) about seeing if we could meet up sometime this year. Possibly it got into the trash folder. Just wanted to give you a heads up, in case you had not seen it. If you are too busy, I understand. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 9 11:37:58 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2019 11:37:58 -0600 Subject: OT RE: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <00a701d4a81a$4539f7f0$cfade7d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <00a701d4a81a$4539f7f0$cfade7d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5C363176.6000201@pico-systems.com> On 01/09/2019 06:53 AM, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > > > Now you've increased your chances by 9000x that someday someone will > complain that they can't reach your site. You said "botnet" right? > The people I'm really concerned about hearing from are mostly more tech savvy and careful with their computers than the average user, so I'm not that worried about that. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 9 11:43:12 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2019 11:43:12 -0600 Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C3632B0.5010908@pico-systems.com> On 01/09/2019 07:49 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Understanding rounding errors is perhaps the most > significant part of "numerical methods", a subdivision of > computer science not as widely known as it should be. I > remember learning of the work of a scientist at DEC whose > work was all about this: making the DEC math libraries not > only efficient but accurate to the last bit. Apparently > this isn't anywhere near as common as it should be. And I > wonder how many computer models are used for answering > important questions where the answers are significantly > affected by numerical errors. Do the authors of those > models know about these considerations? Maybe. Do the > users of those models know? Probably not. paul A real problem on the IBM 360 and 370 was their floating point scheme. They saved exponent bits by making the exponent a power of 16, instead of 2. This meant that the result of any calculation could end up normalized with up to 3 most-significant zeros. That would reduce the precision of the number by up to 3 bits, or a factor of 8. Some iterative solutions compared small differences in successive calculations to decide when they had converged sufficiently to stop. These could either stop early, or run on for a long time trying to reach convergence. IBM eventually had to offer IEEE floating point format on later machines. Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 9 12:12:50 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 10:12:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> I first encountered it about 60 years ago, in fifth grade. Our textbook >> said, "PI is about 3.1416 or 22/7." Our teacher insisted that that >> sentence meant "PI is about 3.1416, or exactly 22/7." I argued it. I >> pointed out that 22/7 was about 3.1429, and "why would they say 'about >> 3.1416' instead of 'about 3.1429' if it were actually 22/7?" I got sent >> to the principal's office. My father, who COULD recite a dozen digits of >> PI gave me a hard time about "staying out of trouble". On Wed, 9 Jan 2019, Tony Duell wrote: > Nice to know that clueless schoolteachers are not limited to the UK. I had > my fair share of them years ago... They have not been limited to the UK for more than half aa millenium. USA caught up many hundreds of years ago. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 9 12:17:12 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 10:17:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: <5C3632B0.5010908@pico-systems.com> References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> <5C3632B0.5010908@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2019, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > A real problem on the IBM 360 and 370 was their floating point scheme. I think that another serious problem was erroneous nomenclature, such as FORTRAN using binary approximations (using a special subset of "RATIONAL numbers"), and calling them "REAL" numbers! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 9 12:30:43 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 10:30:43 -0800 Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: <39aea3e1-33f0-f414-0cc2-bd0d56958989@comcast.net> References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> <39aea3e1-33f0-f414-0cc2-bd0d56958989@comcast.net> Message-ID: <13976e87-7181-2257-7c77-ec7d94e84240@sydex.com> On 1/9/19 9:36 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I always wondered how do people know that those computed digits of pi, > out to millions and millions of digits, are correct? > > Do different algorithms or methods give the same answer? That's basically the idea. For example, you can start with the series approximation of arctangent(1) which is basically 1-1/3+1/5-1/7... and multiply by 4, and it will converge (slowly) to pi. Using any of the other methods enumerated on Wolfram: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PiFormulas.html yield the same converging-to-pi result.. Wolfram also has some interesting "approximations" to pi that I had never encountered: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PiApproximations.html The point is that pi figures deeply into mathematics and so can be "discovered" by a variety of methods. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 12:40:13 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 18:40:13 -0000 Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: <5C3632B0.5010908@pico-systems.com> References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> <5C3632B0.5010908@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <21fb01d4a84a$c2603c00$4720b400$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jon Elson via > cctalk > Sent: 09 January 2019 17:43 > To: Paul Koning ; General at ezwind.net; > Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go > for > > On 01/09/2019 07:49 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > Understanding rounding errors is perhaps the most significant part of > > "numerical methods", a subdivision of computer science not as widely > > known as it should be. I remember learning of the work of a scientist > > at DEC whose work was all about this: making the DEC math libraries > > not only efficient but accurate to the last bit. Apparently this isn't > > anywhere near as common as it should be. And I wonder how many > > computer models are used for answering important questions where the > > answers are significantly affected by numerical errors. Do the authors > > of those models know about these considerations? Maybe. Do the users > > of those models know? Probably not. paul > A real problem on the IBM 360 and 370 was their floating point scheme. They > saved exponent bits by making the exponent a power of 16, instead of 2. > This meant that the result of any calculation could end up normalized with up > to > 3 most-significant zeros. That would reduce the precision of the number by > up to 3 bits, or a factor of 8. Some iterative solutions compared small > differences in successive calculations to decide when they had converged > sufficiently to stop. > These could either stop early, or run on for a long time trying to reach > convergence. > Early machines had to have the floating point units re-worked as IBM found they had to add guard bits to the calculations to get any thing like decent accuracy. In general you needed to use double for decent results. > IBM eventually had to offer IEEE floating point format on later machines. > > Jon Dave From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 9 12:41:11 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 10:41:11 -0800 Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: <39aea3e1-33f0-f414-0cc2-bd0d56958989@comcast.net> References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> <39aea3e1-33f0-f414-0cc2-bd0d56958989@comcast.net> Message-ID: For those musically uninitiated, my reference to Elgar was the interesting discovery by an amateur musician that the "enigma" of the "Nimrod" variation, which has been debated by musicologists for the last century or so, is very likely pi. Consider that by assigning a number to the degrees of the scale, you have 3.142 = mi do fa re, or the opening notes that Elgar referred to in his letters for his "small circle of friends". Here's a YT performance of Nimrod so you can see how often this theme occurs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUgoBb8m1eE Musicologists generally don't like the proposed solution, but bear in mind that the "Enigma Variations" were composed at nearly the same time that the Indiana Pi Bill was being ridiculed by the literate world. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill Politicians! --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 12:49:28 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 18:49:28 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory Message-ID: Well, I have decided to stop playing with my hardware for a while and get back to playing with software. :-) In order to do this I am building three (maybe four) PDP-11's. I have an 11/93, an 11/73 and an 11/23+ (and maybe another 11/23 or 11/73). BUt, I have run into a small problem. Memory. (both the systems and me!) My 11/93 has 2 meg internal and I would like to bring it up to 4 meg. The others I would like to see with 4 meg if possible. (except the last one which I may deliberately keep at 128KW.) I have a number of different memory modules. Mostly DEC but a couple third party. Here's the problem. None of them are reflected in any of the documentation I have been able to find so I can't configure them away from their defaults! Here's a list of numbers: M7551-AC - All the docs I can find seem to refer to AA or AB and jumpers and switches are not in the same locations. M8067-LB M8067-LF M8067-LJ - Same problem. I can find no documentation for any -L boards and these don't even resemble the pictures I find. And then I have two non-DEC module that are unlikely to have any documentation still floating around for. Camintonn CMV-1000 -- As funny as it sounds, this one looks more like a DEC MSV11-QA then the DEC ones do, but not exactly. And one who's maker is only identified by a logo that looks like 2 interlaced stylized S's. Model Number is: 980110014-201 Rev E. Anybody got any pointers to help me configure some of this stuff? bill From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 13:06:03 2019 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 20:06:03 +0100 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> Hi Everyone, Is there any interest in a DiscFerret in good working order? If so contact me off-list. I don't have a plan yet for the case interest is >1. Fred Jan From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jan 9 13:06:52 2019 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 11:06:52 -0800 Subject: OT? Upper limits of FSB In-Reply-To: <8c7eda75-74e9-4b88-10b2-a12a7e5fc315@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com> <1B9BC890-8E94-4184-A6F8-6AAD35F5F924@gmail.com> <5DFF216A-EC2A-4071-814F-1ED1F56693A2@swri.edu> <2cbd2b66-7777-0c70-a232-9025138ca689@sydex.com> <11CB16EC-2EA5-49E4-9F34-84AF97E51BCF@shiresoft.com> <8c7eda75-74e9-4b88-10b2-a12a7e5fc315@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 3:01 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > I bet I/O loops throw every thing off. > Even worse than you might think. For user mode code you've got at least two context switches which are typically thousands of CPU cycles. On the plus side when you start waiting for I/O the CPU will execute another context switch to resume running something else while waiting for the I/O to complete. By the time you get back to your process, it's likely process memory may be at L3 or back in main memory. Depending upon what else is going on it might add 1 to 50 microseconds per I/O just for context switching and reloading caches. Of course in an embedded processor you can run in kernel mode and busy wait if you want. Even fast memory mapped I/O (i.e. PCIe graphics card) that doesn't trigger a page fault is going to have variable latency and will probably have special cache handling. -- Eric Korpela korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu AST:7731^29u18e3 From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 13:10:03 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 14:10:03 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06c801d4a84e$ed313ed0$c793bc70$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 1:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: PDP-11 Memory ... M8067-LB M8067-LF M8067-LJ - Same problem. I can find no documentation for any -L boards and these don't even resemble the pictures I find. ... Anybody got any pointers to help me configure some of this stuff? Bill ----- M8067-L ==> EK-MSV0P-UG-001 MSV11-P User Guide.pdf - Bitsavers ----- paul From jsw at ieee.org Wed Jan 9 13:11:34 2019 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 13:11:34 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/9/19 12:49 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > .... > And then I have two non-DEC module that are unlikely to > have any documentation still floating around for. > > Camintonn CMV-1000 -- As funny as it sounds, this one > looks more like a DEC MSV11-QA > then the DEC ones do, but not exactly. > > And one who's maker is only identified by a logo that > looks like 2 interlaced stylized S's. Model Number > is: 980110014-201 Rev E. > > Anybody got any pointers to help me configure some of this stuff? > > bill See http://gunkies.org/wiki/CMV-4000 or http://web.frainresearch.org:8080/projects/pdp-11/cam.php for basic configuration help on the Camintonn Board. For the M8067-Lx try EK-MSV0P-UG-001_MSV11P_Aug81.pdf.? I believe the variants are different memory chip vendors. 980110014 is probably a National Semi NS23S ?? Jerry From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jan 9 13:13:51 2019 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 11:13:51 -0800 Subject: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 3:01 PM dwight via cctalk wrote: > To Tell you the truth, I can't think of anything other than speed of > calculating that should be done in floating point. The speed is because > we've determined to waste silicon for floating point when we should really > be using combined operation in integer that are designed to handle multiple > arrays( and matices ), addition, multiplication and scaling as single > instructions. Floating point is useful in the sciences where you are dealing with large exponent ranges and/or need appropriate rounding. This will make everyone groan, but somewhere around here I have a C++ template library for fixed point that tracks the result bit width position and does scaling. fixed a(1.0); // stored as 0x00000100 fixed b(0.5); // stored as 0x00000080 fixed c(a*b); // a*b would be fixed by default, but multiply is overloaded for different widths // stored as 0x00000008 Metaprogramming has its uses if you don't mind long compile times and you understand what's going on under the hood. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 13:16:56 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 19:16:56 +0000 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> References: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 1/9/19 2:06 PM, Fred Jan Kraan via cctalk wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > Is there any interest in a DiscFerret in good working order? > > If so contact me off-list. I don't have a plan yet for the case interest > is >1. > What were you hoping to get for it? I have no idea what they went for new and it looks like you can't buy one now, but I love playing with toys like this and I have a lot of 8" floppies I would love to get the data off of. bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 9 13:23:52 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 14:23:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 Memory Message-ID: <20190109192352.F370A18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Gunshannon > I have a number of different memory modules. Mostly DEC but a couple > zthird party. Here's the problem. None of them are reflected in any of > the documentation I have been able to find so I can't configure them > away from their defaults! ... > Anybody got any pointers to help me configure some of this stuff? > M7551-AC - All the docs I can find seem to refer to > AA or AB and jumpers and switches are not > in the same locations. You've looked in EK-MSV1Q-UG-002, right? That seems to cover a couple of different revisions. > M8067-LB > M8067-LF > M8067-LJ - Same problem. I can find no documentation for any -L > boards and these don't even resemble the pictures I find. The M8067-L variants are all MSV11-PL (512-Kbyte QBUS MOS memory). The last letter usually indicates the vendor of the MOS chips used. > And then I have two non-DEC module that are unlikely to > have any documentation still floating around for. > Camintonn CMV-1000 I too couldn't find any documentatin for this; there is the 'SMS 1000 Microcomputer System OEM Manual', which says how to configure one for a base configuration. I started to work out what the configuration switches do, by experiment, but I got distracted before I finished. I have found my notes from this exercise, and can send them to you if they are of any use. Noel From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 13:28:48 2019 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 19:28:48 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: <20190109192352.F370A18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190109192352.F370A18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: As far as I know about the 11/93 (or 11/94), all memory is on the CPU module. The 11/9[3|4] is sort-of an 11/8[3|4] with all (PMI) memory on the CPU module as the cache on the 8[3|4]. The 11/9[3|4] with 2 MB RAM can only be upgraded to 4 MB by adding RAM chips on the CPU module. However, all holes are filled with solder, so this upgrade is quite a lot of work. Henk From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 13:41:26 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 19:41:26 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190109192352.F370A18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/9/19 2:28 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > > As far as I know about the 11/93 (or 11/94), all memory is on the CPU module. > The 11/9[3|4] is sort-of an 11/8[3|4] with all (PMI) memory on the CPU module as the cache on the 8[3|4]. > > The 11/9[3|4] with 2 MB RAM can only be upgraded to 4 MB by adding RAM chips on the CPU module. > However, all holes are filled with solder, so this upgrade is quite a lot of work. > I was beginning to suspect as much as my attempts got nowhere. My board has two empty spots with holes filled with solder. That is not really a problem as I have a professional solder sucker. :-) I assume these might have to do with addressing. Then there are four that I suspect are the memory chips and they are surface mount. Not so sure I want to delve into that as my eyes aren't what they used to be. I guess the first step would be to see if the chips are even available. bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 13:54:00 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 19:54:00 +0000 Subject: OT? Upper limits of FSB In-Reply-To: References: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com> <1B9BC890-8E94-4184-A6F8-6AAD35F5F924@gmail.com> <5DFF216A-EC2A-4071-814F-1ED1F56693A2@swri.edu> <2cbd2b66-7777-0c70-a232-9025138ca689@sydex.com> <11CB16EC-2EA5-49E4-9F34-84AF97E51BCF@shiresoft.com> <8c7eda75-74e9-4b88-10b2-a12a7e5fc315@jetnet.ab.ca>, Message-ID: As long as things stay in a pipe, instruction decode and execution looks to execute in one cycle. Pipe flushes are the penalty. That is where speculative execution pays off. ( also food for Meltdown and Spectre type security holes ). Such loops are quite fast if the prediction was right. Running small unrolled loops only give you a small advantage if the predictor is working well for your code. Large unrolled loops only gain a small amount percentage wise, as always. If one is unrolling a large amount, one may end up getting a cache miss. That can easily eats up any benefit of unrolling the loops. Before speculative execution, unrolling had a clear advantage. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Korpela via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 11:06 AM To: ben; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: OT? Upper limits of FSB On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 3:01 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > I bet I/O loops throw every thing off. > Even worse than you might think. For user mode code you've got at least two context switches which are typically thousands of CPU cycles. On the plus side when you start waiting for I/O the CPU will execute another context switch to resume running something else while waiting for the I/O to complete. By the time you get back to your process, it's likely process memory may be at L3 or back in main memory. Depending upon what else is going on it might add 1 to 50 microseconds per I/O just for context switching and reloading caches. Of course in an embedded processor you can run in kernel mode and busy wait if you want. Even fast memory mapped I/O (i.e. PCIe graphics card) that doesn't trigger a page fault is going to have variable latency and will probably have special cache handling. -- Eric Korpela korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu AST:7731^29u18e3 From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 13:56:38 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 14:56:38 -0500 Subject: Vintage-computing relevant IOBCC entry In-Reply-To: <20190109162058.A2E1118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190109162058.A2E1118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Those were your directions I followed from your web site (somewhere don't remember where)! The disk pack boots I just can't do much more than hit enter and cause another # prompt, maybe get a command not found message. It has been a while. I built the image in simH first, then ported to a real RL02. Bill On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 11:21 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Bill Degnan > > > I attempted to port the same version of unix to an rl02 disk pack and > > to run on an actual 11/40. I was able to get ir to boot up to the # > > prompt but my system does not have a working EIS card to proceed any > > further. > > I"m incredibly surprised that you got to the prompt! First, the V6 RL > bootstrap uses ASH, part of EIS. And then the C compiler makes extensive > use > of EIS instructions, so anything in C (the OS, 'init', 'sh', etc) may have > EIS > instructions in it. > > Noel > From tingox at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 14:05:05 2019 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 21:05:05 +0100 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: References: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Less finished (ok, unfinished) project, but the hardware is cheap and available: https://github.com/davidgiven/fluxengine downside (for me at least) is that the proprietary software (PSoC Creator) only runs on Windows, and (so far) I've been unable to make it work via Wine. On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 8:17 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/9/19 2:06 PM, Fred Jan Kraan via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > > > Is there any interest in a DiscFerret in good working order? > > > > If so contact me off-list. I don't have a plan yet for the case interest > > is >1. > > > > What were you hoping to get for it? I have no idea > what they went for new and it looks like you can't > buy one now, but I love playing with toys like this > and I have a lot of 8" floppies I would love to get > the data off of. > > bill -- mvh Torfinn From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 9 14:12:18 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 12:12:18 -0800 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: References: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 1/9/19 12:05 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > Less finished (ok, unfinished) project Just what the world needs, more half-baked floppy reading hardware and no software, just like the stupid thing on hackaday. https://hackaday.com/2019/01/08/preserving-floppy-disks-via-logic-analyser/ Universal joy through the reinvention of the wheel (badly) From alan at alanlee.org Wed Jan 9 14:39:45 2019 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2019 15:39:45 -0500 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: References: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <86a140aabebaef3692b9a768de8245d0@alanlee.org> I had the bug to do something similar.. then I found SuperCard Pro. It's closed hardware but the USB protocol is fully documented. Because if that, it's almost a perfect commodity turn-key hardware bridge to raw flux-level transitions - in or out. It's $100 and in-stock. One could always build custom hardware, but you'd wind up with something very similar in hardware and protocol design. What's your time worth? The heavy lift is always in software. There is an open-source Amiga disk image utility package that has turned into something more flux-level generic called Keirf Utilities. And the built-in software is also descent. But since the USB protocol is documented, the hardware capabilities can be extended by anyone. -Alan On 2019-01-09 15:12, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 1/9/19 12:05 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: >> Less finished (ok, unfinished) project > > Just what the world needs, more half-baked floppy reading hardware > and no software, just like the stupid thing on hackaday. > > https://hackaday.com/2019/01/08/preserving-floppy-disks-via-logic-analyser/ > > Universal joy through the reinvention of the wheel (badly) From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 9 14:51:25 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 15:51:25 -0500 Subject: OT? Upper limits of FSB In-Reply-To: References: <99ad7951ad57dc57a87742b5c7c852aca580c6ab.camel@gmail.com> <1B9BC890-8E94-4184-A6F8-6AAD35F5F924@gmail.com> <5DFF216A-EC2A-4071-814F-1ED1F56693A2@swri.edu> <2cbd2b66-7777-0c70-a232-9025138ca689@sydex.com> <11CB16EC-2EA5-49E4-9F34-84AF97E51BCF@shiresoft.com> <8c7eda75-74e9-4b88-10b2-a12a7e5fc315@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On Jan 9, 2019, at 2:54 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > ... > Of course in an embedded processor you can run in kernel mode and busy wait > if you want. Yes, and that has a number of advantages. You get well defined latencies and everything that the program does gets done within bounded time (if you do the simple thing of putting work limits on all your work loops). Knowing that your real time system can't ever block a task is a very good property. By contrast, with interrupts, never mind priority schedulers, it's much harder to ensure this. I've built network switches whose data paths were coded this way, and they are both simple and reliable. paul From fred at MISER.MISERNET.NET Wed Jan 9 15:09:33 2019 From: fred at MISER.MISERNET.NET (Fred) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2019 16:09:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2019 20:03:24 +0000 (WET) > From: Peter Coghlan > Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message > > About two hours ago, I received an email to the address I only use for > cctech/cctalk. > > It claimed my email account had been hacked and threatened all sorts of > dire consequences if I didn't deposit $1000 in bitcoins in some place within > 48 hours. [chop] I enjoyed reading the discussion regarding these bogus emails. I get a one or two per week. Some with no password, and some with a password only used for one particular site with an email address only created for that site. (and the site is no longer around more than likely due to being hacked ... essentially the account I had there was a throwaway). Some of the phishers are getting "smarter" and dropping the "-suffix" I used for the email (which also ends up getting to me ...) Obviously the system(s) they send it to don't have a camera, don't have any web browsing software installed, are text based (Linux and OpenVMS) and I just laugh. However, I do enjoy totally confusing the scammers. I have the extra password configured for the SYSTEM account on my main VMS box. The script kiddies have no idea what to do with a second password prompt (since you don't get a User Authorization Failure until you enter both passwords, good, bad, or indifferent). 34630 failures since last successful login No intrusion records either, as they try once and move on. Long passwords are looooong so I challenge them to guess. If they get in, login DCL does checks and if you don't have the secret sauce ... *plonk* I probably don't have to have extra password set, but I'm paranoid and do it anyway. I've also noticed folks at $work are starting to get these "give me bitcoins because I saw your pr0n" messages as well. Those were some fun discussions. Fred From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Wed Jan 9 13:16:38 2019 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 19:16:38 -0000 Subject: Data General Eclipse microcode manual Message-ID: <004901d4a84f$d8bdb0e0$8a3912a0$@eu> Guys, Do any of you know where I could get hold of DG document(s) describing the microcode of their Eclipse family. It was wide yellow manual with brown plastic ring binding. It brings back happy but foggy memories. "The Soul of the New Machine"(book) tells me that the instruction set was built from the microcode by some genius overnight. Probably an urban myth! Who knows. Many thanks, peter From philip at axeside.co.uk Wed Jan 9 13:36:26 2019 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 19:36:26 +0000 Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9faf484f-781f-f64c-ebb5-336c8775dcab@axeside.co.uk> Good evening. I used to post here a lot; now I mainly lurk, but this subject is one I feel strongly about... > About every other semester, I would have a student who had been taught > "exactly 22/7"!? One guy admitted that he had just never bothered to > divide it out.? Once he did, he understood the concept of > "approximation", did his homework, and found better ones, like 355/113. For me, the one that bugs me is sqr(3), which comes up in electrical engineering a lot in 3-phase circuits. What bugs me is seeing people type "1.73" into their calculator when they mean sqr(3). I know other people disagree with me on this - some say it doesn't matter, others say it shows the person is thinking about the problem rather than just using a textbook formula - but here is my take. Firstly, I don't know about many modern calculators, but on the calculators I grew up with, and on my HP-48, sqr(3) takes _fewer_ keypresses than 1.73, so why would anyone want to type that? Secondly, how accurate is 1.73? I am willing to bet these people don't know. A more precise figure is 1.73205... so 1.73 is about 0.12% too small. In other words, in most applications the difference is negligible. But when they are calibrating (for example) the tarriff metering system, where the system is expected to be accurate to 0.1%, using current and voltage transformers of nominally 0.1% precision (you need to measure the error under various conditions and program a correction into the meter), the error in the figure they are using for sqr(3) will swamp the errors they are measuring. My worry is that these people will go on using 1.73, and getting away with it, until they calibrate the metering CTs, and then will have no ideas why everything is so far out of spec. If they are lucky, the error will show a new piece of kit to be out of spec when it is actually fine but marginal, and the supplier will gently correct them... And all because, as people here have been saying, people don't know the validity of the approximations they are using. For sqr(3) without a calculator, "7/4 less 1%" is actually pretty good. It comes out at 1.7325, or 0.026% high. If I just need a rough figure, 7/4 is fine. And most importantly, I know how much precision I need for most applications. Philip. PS for pi, I once saw 710/226 in a slide rule manual. This is the same as 355/113, of course, but owing to the discontinuous nature of the scale precision, it is easier to set up. On that slide rule, anyway - others may have the discontinuities in different places... From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 16:02:00 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 22:02:00 +0000 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> References: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 1/9/19 2:06 PM, Fred Jan Kraan via cctalk wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > Is there any interest in a DiscFerret in good working order? > > If so contact me off-list. I don't have a plan yet for the case interest > is >1. So, I accidentally replied to the list as well and it created quite a flurry of discussion most of which I am not sure I understand. It appears this is a defunct project. Which doesn't make me any less interested. :-) So, what are you hoping to get for it? It isn't worth a lot to me, but I am curious and I often by things out of curiosity that end out as dead ends (like a ROKU Box :-). Ground postage should not be too much and I am certainly not in a hurry to get it. Laat me weten, alstublieft. Tot Ziens. bill From echristopherson at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 16:50:24 2019 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 16:50:24 -0600 Subject: Want/Available list In-Reply-To: References: <013c01d497aa$b1ee5c90$15cb15b0$@com> <3c9611ff-2c93-056c-ac7e-24d435772f4f@bitsavers.org> <014a01d49889$11ed4190$35c7c4b0$@com> <5c71ca78-cbe3-ceb5-a419-f82ee26d5b0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01b201d49896$f98498c0$ec8dca40$@com> <501D5BCC-11BC-4A22-8CE6-AE6DBA629684@eschatologist.net> <3FC424AE-83D8-4A01-B231-D0F94E35C749@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 11:40 AM Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 at 02:59, Zane Healy via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Websites are a huge inconvenience or imposition, email lists are not. > > Agreed. > > However, for a lot of younger people and those to whom "email" just > means "MS Outlook", it's hard work. They do not understand > complexities such as filtering, rules, quoting, signatures etc. For > them, web fora are easier. Personally, I find web fora almost totally > unusable and treat them as a last resort. > I'd like it if I could start getting all the CCTalk/CCTech messages in my inbox again so I don't *have* to look at the archives (which I don't often remember to do). -- Eric Christopherson From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 9 16:54:59 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 14:54:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for In-Reply-To: <9faf484f-781f-f64c-ebb5-336c8775dcab@axeside.co.uk> References: <7892727ff323f0bb05a2ff51c80c3e8f08106f28.camel@gmail.com> <9faf484f-781f-f64c-ebb5-336c8775dcab@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2019, Philip Belben via cctalk wrote: > For me, the one that bugs me is sqr(3), which comes up in electrical > engineering a lot in 3-phase circuits. > What bugs me is seeing people type "1.73" into their calculator when they > mean sqr(3). I know other people disagree with me on this - some say it > doesn't matter, others say it shows the person is thinking about the problem > rather than just using a textbook formula - but here is my take. > Firstly, I don't know about many modern calculators, but on the calculators I > grew up with, and on my HP-48, sqr(3) takes _fewer_ keypresses than 1.73, so > why would anyone want to type that? except that not all calculators have sqrt key in same place, so sometimes it's quicker to just type the number. > Secondly, how accurate is 1.73? I am willing to bet these people don't know. > A more precise figure is 1.73205... so 1.73 is about 0.12% too small. I have ALWAYS used 1.732 It is accuraate enough for any of my needs. "But, how do you remember it?" "Easy. the year that George Washington was born." "But how do you remember THAT?" "Extremely easy! Square root of 3 !" From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Jan 9 20:26:48 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 13:26:48 +1100 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: <86a140aabebaef3692b9a768de8245d0@alanlee.org> References: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 03:39 PM 9/01/2019 -0500, you wrote: > >I had the bug to do something similar.. then I found SuperCard Pro. >It's closed hardware but the USB protocol is fully documented. Because >if that, it's almost a perfect commodity turn-key hardware bridge to raw >flux-level transitions - in or out. It's $100 and in-stock. One could >always build custom hardware, but you'd wind up with something very >similar in hardware and protocol design. What's your time worth? > >The heavy lift is always in software. There is an open-source Amiga >disk image utility package that has turned into something more >flux-level generic called Keirf Utilities. And the built-in software is >also descent. But since the USB protocol is documented, the hardware >capabilities can be extended by anyone. > >-Alan > > >On 2019-01-09 15:12, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/9/19 12:05 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: >>> Less finished (ok, unfinished) project >> >> Just what the world needs, more half-baked floppy reading hardware >> and no software, just like the stupid thing on hackaday. >> >> https://hackaday.com/2019/01/08/preserving-floppy-disks-via-logic-analyser/ >> >> Universal joy through the reinvention of the wheel (badly) Has anyone used a DiscFerret, to actually extract files from say, Apple II disks and HP LIF disks? The website- https://discferret.com/wiki/DiscFerret It seemms like the project is dead since 2013, was only ever for Linux, and never included software that understands various old floppy formats. Is that right? My neads (using DOS, WinXP or Win7) are: * At the moment I'm attempting to restore my old, heavily modified Apple II to working condition, and then archive all my old Apple II files on floppies to PC. Part of a project to document a bunch of projects I did in my 20s, 1970s t0 1980s. The intro article is here: http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm Another article is in progress, about the restoration and doco of all the mods I did on my Apple II. After it's working and old files extracted, then an article about my hacking Apple DOS 3.2 to get higher data density. The old thermal printer listings are faded to illegibility, so I'm really hoping the floppies are still readable. * Also I have some old HP equipment that uses HP-format floppies. LIF? They're not DOS compatible. A HP 1630G logic analyzer with 9121 GPIB dual floppy drive, and a HP 80000 data generator. For both machines I have old floppies containing critical utilities (including a bunch of disassembly utilities for early processors) that I really want to back up on PC and put online. There's sentimental and historical interest with both, and practical need with the HP gear. But, I have little experience with data recovery from old floppies. Long ago I did have a PC ISA bus card for extracting bit transition images from floppies, but I can't find it. Just now starting to look for what's available. Hoping for something that just works, as I have way too many projects already. I do have boxes of old drives, 8" 5.25" and 3.5", most densities. What other all-formats floppy R/W and data recovery tools do people here know of? Comments of their functionality? Guy From pye at mactec.com.au Wed Jan 9 21:01:25 2019 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 13:01:25 +1000 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: > On 10 Jan 2019, at 12:26 pm, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > * At the moment I'm attempting to restore my old, heavily modified Apple II to working condition, > and then archive all my old Apple II files on floppies to PC. Part of a project to document a > bunch of projects I did in my 20s, 1970s t0 1980s. > The intro article is here: http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm > Another article is in progress, about the restoration and doco of all the mods I did on my Apple II. > After it's working and old files extracted, then an article about my hacking Apple DOS 3.2 to > get higher data density. The old thermal printer listings are faded to illegibility, so I'm > really hoping the floppies are still readable. If you have a working Apple II and floppy drive you can use ADTPro http://adtpro.com at least for standard Apple formats (probably not higher data density) it works rather well. Chris From wilson at dbit.com Wed Jan 9 21:23:16 2019 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 22:23:16 -0500 Subject: RL02 packs FTGH in 01057 Message-ID: <20190110032316.GA15304@dbit.dbit.com> So I'm consolidating my storage and finding I have a lot of surplus stuff. For starters, I have a few too many RL02K-DCs (also a few RL01K-DCs and a couple of 12-sector RK05 packs): http://www.dbit.com/wilson/RL02K-DC.jpg Believed to be good/usable but of course I guarantee nothing. YMMV. YHMC. Located in Monson, MA, 01057, USA. I'll drive anywhere in southern New England to deliver some / a few / all of them, for free. Anything more complicated is OK, at your expense. John Wilson D Bit From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 9 21:34:43 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 19:34:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jan 2019, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > Has anyone used a DiscFerret, to actually extract files from say, Apple II disks > and HP LIF disks? > The website- https://discferret.com/wiki/DiscFerret > It seemms like the project is dead since 2013, was only ever for Linux, and never included software > that understands various old floppy formats. Is that right? > My neads (using DOS, WinXP or Win7) are: > * At the moment I'm attempting to restore my old, heavily modified Apple II to working condition, > and then archive all my old Apple II files on floppies to PC. Part of a project to document a > bunch of projects I did in my 20s, 1970s t0 1980s. > The intro article is here: http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm > Another article is in progress, about the restoration and doco of all the mods I did on my Apple II. > After it's working and old files extracted, then an article about my hacking Apple DOS 3.2 to > get higher data density. The old thermal printer listings are faded to illegibility, so I'm > really hoping the floppies are still readable. > * Also I have some old HP equipment that uses HP-format floppies. LIF? They're not DOS compatible. > A HP 1630G logic analyzer with 9121 GPIB dual floppy drive, and a HP 80000 data generator. > For both machines I have old floppies containing critical utilities (including a bunch of > disassembly utilities for early processors) that I really want to back up on PC and put online. > There's sentimental and historical interest with both, and practical need with the HP gear. > But, I have little experience with data recovery from old floppies. Long ago I did have a PC ISA > bus card for extracting bit transition images from floppies, but I can't find it. > Just now starting to look for what's available. Hoping for something that just works, as I have > way too many projects already. > I do have boxes of old drives, 8" 5.25" and 3.5", most densities. > What other all-formats floppy R/W and data recovery tools do people here know of? > Comments of their functionality? A couple of questions to discuss. Believe it or not, they are not rhetorical questions. 1) Do you like to re-invent the wheel? You CAN make a better one, and have fun doing it. 2) Do you want to image the disks, for later recreation of a duplicate disk? OR 3) Do you want to extract FILES? (to be viewed/edited/used on PC) The majority of the flux-transition products were developed around #2. I don't know which, if any, ever completed the software for #3. #2 and #3 are actually not mutually incompatible. If you make images of the raw content of the disks, you could work from those images, rather than from the physical format on the disks themselves for extracting files. That is especially an issue for formats such as Apple2, which can not be read by stock PC hardware. And, if you succeed in creating a 140K file of the bytes on an Apple disk, then you do not need to worry about whether it will survive any more read attempts. For example, David Small's "Magic Sac" Macintosh emulator originally used MFM images of Macintosh GCR disks. Not his first choice for a name for it, but that was as close as Apple's lawyers would let him get. Later, he created "Spectre GCR" to be able to read the Mac GCR disks. If you can image the Apple disks, so that you can wade through the raw content on a PC, the details of the raw physical format, the logical format, and the file system are documented. MOST of that is present in "Beneath Apple DOS". With the GCR structure (they changed it between DOS 3.2 and 3.3) you can convert, and extract the bytes, to get 13 or 16 256 byte sectors per track. You then need to look at the data structures of the Directory (track 17?) to figure out which sectors comprise each file. Apple DOS, PRO-DOS, P-System, and Apple CP/M each have different data structures for their directories. About 30 years ago, I wrote the software to extract and copy files from those formats on Apple disks, using a board [made by somebody else] in a PC. ("Apple Turnover", later just "Turnover" when Apple's lawyers spoke up). The publisher and vendor of the product screwed both of us. The majority, but far from all, of the other formats use MFM, with a track structure that is compatible with the NEC and WD track format. Most, but not all of those can be done using PC hardware. (Some, such as FM/"Single Density" and 128 bytes per sector, can be done on some PCs and not others) Apple's GCR (it is NOT MFM) is different between AppleDos 3.2 and 3.3, and is different from the GCR used by Commodore, Sirius/Victor, and some others. Some file system data structures, such as CP/M, TRS-DOS, P-system are documented. Some are not. Some claim to be documented, by telling you sectors per track, bytes per sector, and what track the dirctory is on, but not the data structures of it. Oh, yes. and, . . . 4) You will need to write additional code to work with the content of those files if you want to load word processor or spreadsheet files into any of the "modern" office programs. Word processors, even Wordstar, did NOT store the documents as ASCII text. I wrote XenoCopy, but it is NOT STILL AVAILABLE and I got out of that aspect a few decades ago, so I remember some details, but not all of the really important ones. At the time, I estimated that there were about 2500 different floppy disk formats, and I implemented 400 of them. Chuck did 22Disk (Sydex). He seems to have stayed involved, had greater mastery, and remembers much more than I do. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com http://www.xenosoft.com From fritzm at fritzm.org Wed Jan 9 21:37:39 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 19:37:39 -0800 Subject: RL02 packs FTGH in 01057 In-Reply-To: <20190110032316.GA15304@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20190110032316.GA15304@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: Hi John -- I could really use a few more 12-sector RK05 packs, and would happily pay for shipping plus whatever small "inconvenience fee" seems reasonable to you? If you have nothing to pack them in, I could ship you a some materials as well? I have almost no media to use on my recently restored machine, so I'm constantly overwriting the two good packs I have to try different operating-systems, etc! And it would be really nice to have a pack to dedicate to swap so I could have a little more breathing room in the root file system on some of the bigger OS's... cheers, --FritzM. From fritzm at fritzm.org Wed Jan 9 21:39:22 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 19:39:22 -0800 Subject: RL02 packs FTGH in 01057 In-Reply-To: References: <20190110032316.GA15304@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <29abad98-b8e4-7ba2-d978-f565f54102fd@fritzm.org> [oops, meant that to be a DM, sorry all, Linux mailer was being tricky with the "To:" address :-/] From fritzm at fritzm.org Wed Jan 9 21:50:58 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 19:50:58 -0800 Subject: warped RK05 pack -- lost cause? Message-ID: <0a297698-ed04-4af3-5feb-a6bc7dc68803@fritzm.org> So, one of the things I have along with my 11/45 is an RK05 alignment cartridge. Unfortunately, its seems warped -- rides up an down a few millimeters in each direction as you turn it in an RK05 drive. :-( Is there any hope for bending one of these platters back more into true (maybe using a rig like they do with bicycle rims, etc?). Or is it just basically junk at this point? I wouldn't really care, but it's an alignment cartridge and there can't still be too many of these still around out there... So it sort of sux to just write it off. I'm assuming that if I had to release the media from the hub in order to true it, its value as an alignment cartridge would be lost anyway. --FritzM. From Michael at jongleur.co.uk Wed Jan 9 20:34:23 2019 From: Michael at jongleur.co.uk (Michael Mulhern) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 13:34:23 +1100 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <86a140aabebaef3692b9a768de8245d0@alanlee.org> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: AppleII have a look at AppleSauce to USB connect an Apple Disk][ to a Mac to flux read the diskettes. If you?re not Mac interested, maybe someone could do them for you. I would, but I?m in Sydney , AU. //m On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 at 1:26 pm, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 03:39 PM 9/01/2019 -0500, you wrote: > > > >I had the bug to do something similar.. then I found SuperCard Pro. > >It's closed hardware but the USB protocol is fully documented. Because > >if that, it's almost a perfect commodity turn-key hardware bridge to raw > >flux-level transitions - in or out. It's $100 and in-stock. One could > >always build custom hardware, but you'd wind up with something very > >similar in hardware and protocol design. What's your time worth? > > > >The heavy lift is always in software. There is an open-source Amiga > >disk image utility package that has turned into something more > >flux-level generic called Keirf Utilities. And the built-in software is > >also descent. But since the USB protocol is documented, the hardware > >capabilities can be extended by anyone. > > > >-Alan > > > > > >On 2019-01-09 15:12, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> On 1/9/19 12:05 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > >>> Less finished (ok, unfinished) project > >> > >> Just what the world needs, more half-baked floppy reading hardware > >> and no software, just like the stupid thing on hackaday. > >> > >> > https://hackaday.com/2019/01/08/preserving-floppy-disks-via-logic-analyser/ > >> > >> Universal joy through the reinvention of the wheel (badly) > > > Has anyone used a DiscFerret, to actually extract files from say, Apple II > disks > and HP LIF disks? > > The website- https://discferret.com/wiki/DiscFerret > It seemms like the project is dead since 2013, was only ever for Linux, > and never included software > that understands various old floppy formats. Is that right? > > My neads (using DOS, WinXP or Win7) are: > > * At the moment I'm attempting to restore my old, heavily modified Apple > II to working condition, > and then archive all my old Apple II files on floppies to PC. Part of a > project to document a > bunch of projects I did in my 20s, 1970s t0 1980s. > The intro article is here: > http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm > Another article is in progress, about the restoration and doco of all > the mods I did on my Apple II. > After it's working and old files extracted, then an article about my > hacking Apple DOS 3.2 to > get higher data density. The old thermal printer listings are faded to > illegibility, so I'm > really hoping the floppies are still readable. > > * Also I have some old HP equipment that uses HP-format floppies. LIF? > They're not DOS compatible. > A HP 1630G logic analyzer with 9121 GPIB dual floppy drive, and a HP > 80000 data generator. > For both machines I have old floppies containing critical utilities > (including a bunch of > disassembly utilities for early processors) that I really want to back > up on PC and put online. > > There's sentimental and historical interest with both, and practical need > with the HP gear. > > But, I have little experience with data recovery from old floppies. Long > ago I did have a PC ISA > bus card for extracting bit transition images from floppies, but I can't > find it. > Just now starting to look for what's available. Hoping for something that > just works, as I have > way too many projects already. > > I do have boxes of old drives, 8" 5.25" and 3.5", most densities. > > What other all-formats floppy R/W and data recovery tools do people here > know of? > Comments of their functionality? > > Guy > > > -- *Blog: RetroRetrospective ? Fun today with yesterday's gear??.. * *Podcast*: *Retro Computing Roundtable * (Co-Host) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 01:19:10 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 07:19:10 -0000 Subject: OT RE: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <00a701d4a81a$4539f7f0$cfade7d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <00a701d4a81a$4539f7f0$cfade7d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <054c01d4a8b4$c8459510$58d0bf30$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jay West via > cctalk > Sent: 09 January 2019 12:53 > To: 'John Foust' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: OT RE: Bogus "account hacked" message > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Foust > via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 6:33 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Bogus "account hacked" message > > At 08:56 PM 1/8/2019, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >I currently have 9000-some blocked IPs in hosts.deny, I wonder how much > that slows down my store. Ugh, the stuff we are forced to go through. > > Now you've increased your chances by 9000x that someday someone will > complain that they can't reach your site. You said "botnet" right? > > - John > I was going to say that permanent blocks on IP addresses seems fruitless. I assume that BotNets are compromised end user machines, and that the end users that have them are on standard dynamic IP address, so when some one gets one of your blocked addresses..... Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 10 01:39:33 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 00:39:33 -0700 Subject: OT RE: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <054c01d4a8b4$c8459510$58d0bf30$@gmail.com> References: <00a701d4a81a$4539f7f0$cfade7d0$@classiccmp.org> <054c01d4a8b4$c8459510$58d0bf30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/10/2019 12:19 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > I was going to say that permanent blocks on IP addresses seems fruitless. > > I assume that BotNets are compromised end user machines, and that the end > users that have them are on standard dynamic IP address, so when some one > gets one of your blocked addresses..... > > Dave And then we have the other end, The latest browsers refuse to let access to NON approved site. I wonder how soon it will be the web will be only SLEEZY marketing outfits that bribe GOOGLE and EBAY and MICROSOFT. Ben. BTW What ever happened to all the DEC terminals out there? I can't find any cheap in CANADA. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jan 10 02:43:33 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 09:43:33 +0100 (CET) Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jan 2019, Guy Dunphy wrote: > * Also I have some old HP equipment that uses HP-format floppies. LIF? > They're not DOS compatible. > A HP 1630G logic analyzer with 9121 GPIB dual floppy drive, and a HP > 80000 data generator. For both machines I have old floppies containing > critical utilities (including a bunch of disassembly utilities for > early processors) that I really want to back up on PC and put online. Now that is as easy as it can be. There's lif_utils from Tony Duell (http://www.hpcc.org/datafile/hpil/lif_utils.html), or the HP LIF Utilities (http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=56) for MS-DOS, of even the LIF tools in HP-UX (e.g. lifls, lifcp). But those 3?" HP floppies can be read on any standard PC with 3?" floppy drive, they are in standard MFM format (with some special feature to mark bad tracks, they put $FF in the sector headers and continue with the next track). I've written a tool to read/write/format a diskette in 9122C format to exchange data with our HP1000. Christian From guykd at optusnet.com.au Thu Jan 10 02:45:35 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 19:45:35 +1100 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 07:34 PM 9/01/2019 -0800, you wrote: >On Thu, 10 Jan 2019, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: >> ... >> What other all-formats floppy R/W and data recovery tools do people here know of? >> Comments of their functionality? > >A couple of questions to discuss. Believe it or not, they are not >rhetorical questions. > >1) Do you like to re-invent the wheel? I used to. These days with years growing short, I try to avoid such 'purely for fun' projects. 'Try', but often fail. Too easily sidetracked. But there are some things I want to do before I get too old, and they're not all going to be possible. Sidetracks just shorten the list. >You CAN make a better one, and have fun doing it. Sure, I agree. I think many existing things are crap, hence the tendency to want to improve them. But there's not enough time. Gundam Syndrome. For _this_ project, I just want to 1. Get my old Apple II fully working again. More to that than you'd expect: http://everist.org/NobLog/20190106_hacked_appleII.htm (only just started) Currently setting up a logic analyzer for this. Wish I'd had one back then! Now I have a choice among several. I sort of collect logic analyzers like some people collect scopes. I'll probably use my trusty OLD HP 1630G, just to give it some exercise. BTW, does anyone have any spare disassembly ROM packs for the Tek 1240? Seeking any! See: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/im-updating-a-wiki-site-for-the-tektronix-1240-1241-and-i-need-your-help/ I post as TerraHertz there. 2. Recover what files I can from all my old Apple II floppies. I want all of them to end up as files on a PC, with as little effort as possible. SOME of them I'll want to create new disks of, for use in one last Apple II project. Which is mostly just a demonstration of some things I did long ago. Not interested in simulators. The point is to demonstrate and take pics/videos of stuff running on that particular (highly modified) Apple II. And also to rebuild EPROMs for a few things. I do know a fair bit about the internals of Apple II disks (or rather, did) but now I don't much want to know. No way am I going to do manual file reconstructions from sector data. For this pile of floppies: http://everist.org/NobLog/pics/20181001/20181223_1961.jpg 3. Similar for the HP LIF disks. Recover the files to PC, create fresh disks exactly the same, post online any of the files (and/or disk images) that are not already. Pretty high chance most of them won't be. >2) Do you want to image the disks, for later recreation of a duplicate >disk? >OR >3) Do you want to extract FILES? (to be viewed/edited/used on PC) Apple II: Extract all files AND create duplicates of a few of the disks. All for my use. Unlikely to be much of interest to others. HP LIF: Extract all files (not many. I think no more than six 3.5" floppies.) Also create disk images for posting. So others have both the images and the files. >The majority of the flux-transition products were developed around #2. >I don't know which, if any, ever completed the software for #3. > >#2 and #3 are actually not mutually incompatible. >If you make images of the raw content of the disks, you could work from >those images, rather than from the physical format on the disks themselves >for extracting files. That is especially an issue for formats such as >Apple2, which can not be read by stock PC hardware. And, if you succeed >in creating a 140K file of the bytes on an Apple disk, then you do not >need to worry about whether it will survive any more read attempts. Sure, but for me this is only practical if tools exist to treat the image file as a virtual disk, to read the files. I _could_ write it (would take me months, or even years given how little time slices the project would get) but do not have time. More urgent things take priority. This is what I'm asking - does any such utility exist? Capture the image, and give access as files, allowing them all to be saved as files, one folder per original floppy. On a PC. Another path would be a software pair, some on the Apple II and some on the PC, with some channel between. RS232, or a dual port RAM, or whatever. This would actually be a lot simpler for me to write. I never did have a serial card for the Apple II back then, but that can't be hard to find. >For example, David Small's "Magic Sac" Macintosh emulator originally used >MFM images of Macintosh GCR disks. Not his first choice for a name for >it, but that was as close as Apple's lawyers would let him get. Later, he >created "Spectre GCR" to be able to read the Mac GCR disks. > >If you can image the Apple disks, so that you can wade through the raw >content on a PC, the details of the raw physical format, the logical >format, and the file system are documented. MOST of that is present in >"Beneath Apple DOS". Heh. You didn't read this: http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm#dos And I have that book btw. >With the GCR structure (they changed it between DOS 3.2 and 3.3) you can >convert, and extract the bytes, to get 13 or 16 256 byte sectors per >track. >You then need to look at the data structures of the Directory (track 17?) >to figure out which sectors comprise each file. >Apple DOS, PRO-DOS, P-System, and Apple CP/M each have different data >structures for their directories. All my Apple II disks are DOS 3.2. When 3.3 came out, it was a) too much trouble to convert everything up, and b) ... read that 'missing the wave' story. It gave me a sour feeling about 3.3. Totally my own fault, but still. >About 30 years ago, I wrote the software to extract and copy files from >those formats on Apple disks, using a board [made by somebody else] in a >PC. ("Apple Turnover", later just "Turnover" when Apple's lawyers spoke >up). The publisher and vendor of the product screwed both of us. Dear me, my sympathies. More in common. Part of this effort involves writing up a product of mine for the Apple II (an EPROM programmer, EPROM bank and battery-backed RAM card) See http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm#promr that was pretty good but got commercially sabotaged to death by a 'friend.' >The majority, but far from all, of the other formats use MFM, with a track >structure that is compatible with the NEC and WD track format. Most, but >not all of those can be done using PC hardware. (Some, such as FM/"Single >Density" and 128 bytes per sector, can be done on some PCs and not others) > >Apple's GCR (it is NOT MFM) is different between AppleDos 3.2 and 3.3, and >is different from the GCR used by Commodore, Sirius/Victor, and some >others. Ha, this I know well. Having reverse engineered Apple DOS 3.2 hardware and software myself from curiosity. In Australia, the DOS 3.2 manuals did not arrive for a loooong time after we got the actual hardware. Some of the disks I want to recover contain the disassembly and my own code from that reverse engineering, and the patches I made to DOS 3.2 to increase the data density. >Some file system data structures, such as CP/M, TRS-DOS, P-system are >documented. Some are not. Some claim to be documented, by telling you >sectors per track, bytes per sector, and what track the dirctory is on, >but not the data structures of it. Yeah. I have at times done hand dissections and debugs of PC floppies and hard disks (only the FAT varieties) but would rather not do that again. There's a bunch of books in my library about PC DOS disk structures, and I'll be happy to never open them again. I thought the whole thing was ghastly. Every. Single. Improvement. was always so shortsighted and limiting. Bah. >Oh, yes. and, . . . >4) You will need to write additional code to work with the content of >those files if you want to load word processor or spreadsheet files into >any of the "modern" office programs. Word processors, even Wordstar, did >NOT store the documents as ASCII text. Sure, I know. But there's just ONE not-quite ASCII file format I'll be converting. The Assembler I used on the Apple II was primitive, and kept source files in a form with mixed binary and text per line. They saved a bit of space that way. I'll want to write a converter to get them into plain text. So I can build them with a _real_ cross compiler on a PC, if needed. Almost ALL the files on those Apple disks will be like that. I have the format documented, because I disassembled the assembler and patched improvements into it. It didn't implement all the 6502 addressing modes, for one thing. Also lacked some important directives. It became a patched mess, but worked. God how I hated that Assembler and it's non-ascii format. I didn't change that annoyance, because memory space really was a critical shortage. > >I wrote XenoCopy, but it is NOT STILL AVAILABLE and I got out of that >aspect a few decades ago, so I remember some details, but not all of the >really important ones. At the time, I estimated that there were about >2500 different floppy disk formats, and I implemented 400 of them. That's very impressive. And you didn't put the source online for free when you terminated the project, because...? >Chuck did 22Disk (Sydex). He seems to have stayed involved, had greater >mastery, and remembers much more than I do. >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com >http://www.xenosoft.com Guy From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jan 10 02:47:18 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 09:47:18 +0100 (CET) Subject: warped RK05 pack -- lost cause? In-Reply-To: <0a297698-ed04-4af3-5feb-a6bc7dc68803@fritzm.org> References: <0a297698-ed04-4af3-5feb-a6bc7dc68803@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2019, Fritz Mueller wrote: > So, one of the things I have along with my 11/45 is an RK05 alignment > cartridge. Unfortunately, its seems warped -- rides up an down a few > millimeters in each direction as you turn it in an RK05 drive. :-( I don't think it's the platter but perhaps a dirty hub ring or centering cone. Try cleaning the ring and the cone of your disk pack. Christian From guykd at optusnet.com.au Thu Jan 10 03:08:23 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 20:08:23 +1100 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190110200823.0116fdf0@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 09:43 AM 10/01/2019 +0100, you wrote: >On Thu, 10 Jan 2019, Guy Dunphy wrote: >> * Also I have some old HP equipment that uses HP-format floppies. LIF? >Now that is as easy as it can be. There's lif_utils from Tony Duell >(http://www.hpcc.org/datafile/hpil/lif_utils.html), or the HP LIF >Utilities (http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=56) for MS-DOS, of >even the LIF tools in HP-UX (e.g. lifls, lifcp). >But those 3?" HP floppies can be read on any standard PC with 3?" floppy >drive, they are in standard MFM format (with some special feature to mark >bad tracks, they put $FF in the sector headers and continue with the next >track). I've written a tool to read/write/format a diskette in 9122C >format to exchange data with our HP1000. > >Christian Thanks! From bear at typewritten.org Thu Jan 10 00:56:42 2019 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 22:56:42 -0800 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: References: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <94B255AA-35B3-46DC-9A41-776C4FE86E6B@typewritten.org> On Jan 9, 2019, at 12:12 PM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > Universal joy through the reinvention of the wheel (badly) Alan Kay called this "reinventing the flat tire", a turn of phrase I rather fancy. ok bear. -- until further notice From bear at typewritten.org Thu Jan 10 01:00:35 2019 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 23:00:35 -0800 Subject: IBM APL/PC unofficial patch for memory >512KB Message-ID: <6D72DDEC-EFD7-4D16-B2D5-10D02E45D310@typewritten.org> IBM's APL/PC v1.0 crashes if you try to run it on a PC with more than 512 KB RAM. I learned today that there was a patch published to make it work on systems with 640 KB. Of course, I can't seem to find any trace of it. Anyone save a copy or know where it might be found today? ok bear. -- until further notice From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 07:07:16 2019 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 09:07:16 -0400 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: References: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <236ab4d6-73fe-3e6d-2e4d-6bfca34cbb5e@gmail.com> On 2019-01-10 4:43 a.m., Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jan 2019, Guy Dunphy wrote: >> * Also I have some old HP equipment that uses HP-format floppies. >> LIF? They're not DOS compatible. >> ?A HP 1630G logic analyzer with 9121 GPIB dual floppy drive, and a HP >> ?80000 data generator. For both machines I have old floppies containing >> ?critical utilities (including a bunch of disassembly utilities for >> ?early processors) that I really want to back up on PC and put online. > > Now that is as easy as it can be. There's lif_utils from Tony Duell > (http://www.hpcc.org/datafile/hpil/lif_utils.html), or the HP LIF > Utilities (http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=56) for MS-DOS, > of even the LIF tools in HP-UX (e.g. lifls, lifcp). > But those 3?" HP floppies can be read on any standard PC with 3?" > floppy drive, they are in standard MFM format (with some special > feature to mark bad tracks, they put $FF in the sector headers and > continue with the next track). I've written a tool to > read/write/format a diskette in 9122C format to exchange data with our > HP1000. > > Christian One problem you may encounter reading LIF format diskettes on a PC using these tools is many LIF diskettes are formatted 256 bytes/sector and there is lots of PC diskette controller out there that cannot deal with that including all USB diskette drives I am aware of.? I use a Panasonic CF-45 laptop that has a built in diskette drive.? HP's LIFUTIL can be set up to use HPIB storage such as 9122s via a HPIB adapter card. Paul. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jan 10 09:10:58 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 16:10:58 +0100 (CET) Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: <236ab4d6-73fe-3e6d-2e4d-6bfca34cbb5e@gmail.com> References: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <236ab4d6-73fe-3e6d-2e4d-6bfca34cbb5e@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jan 2019, Paul Berger wrote: > One problem you may encounter reading LIF format diskettes on a PC using > these tools is many LIF diskettes are formatted 256 bytes/sector and there is > lots of PC diskette controller out there that cannot deal with that including *All* standard PC floppy disk controllers can deal with 256 bytes/sector MFM. Show me one that can't. USB drives are another story, because they are intelligent subsystems (think of a CBM 1541) that have only implemented the most minimum to handle standard format IBM PC floppies. Christian From guykd at optusnet.com.au Thu Jan 10 09:27:52 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 02:27:52 +1100 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: <236ab4d6-73fe-3e6d-2e4d-6bfca34cbb5e@gmail.com> References: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190111022752.0114faf8@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 09:07 AM 10/01/2019 -0400, you wrote: >One problem you may encounter reading LIF format diskettes on a PC using >these tools is many LIF diskettes are formatted 256 bytes/sector and >there is lots of PC diskette controller out there that cannot deal with >that including all USB diskette drives I am aware of.?? I use a Panasonic >CF-45 laptop that has a built in diskette drive.?? HP's LIFUTIL can be >set up to use HPIB storage such as 9122s via a HPIB adapter card. > >Paul. Cool, another possible. Ironically I have a 9121 and a 9123, not a 9122. Now to work out whether the difference is significant. Hopefully not... And then, find a suitable HPIB card. I bet none of the ones I have are. Guy From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jan 10 11:20:39 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 11:20:39 -0600 Subject: OT RE: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <054c01d4a8b4$c8459510$58d0bf30$@gmail.com> References: <00a701d4a81a$4539f7f0$cfade7d0$@classiccmp.org> <054c01d4a8b4$c8459510$58d0bf30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C377EE7.1080408@pico-systems.com> On 01/10/2019 01:19 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > > I was going to say that permanent blocks on IP addresses seems fruitless. > > I assume that BotNets are compromised end user machines, and that the end > users that have them are on standard dynamic IP address, so when some one > gets one of your blocked addresses..... > > Well, they are not "permanent". I forget what I have it set to, but after some time it does expire them from hosts.deny Likely, I could set that sunset period shorter. Jon From seefriek at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 11:27:43 2019 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:27:43 -0500 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message Message-ID: FWIW, I use a password manager (Keepass/Keepass2, tho there are other good ones). It's another step or two in my workflow, but let's me have a unique, very strong password for everything I log into. Greatly reduces the impact of password dump attacks. From martin at shackspace.de Thu Jan 10 11:57:15 2019 From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 18:57:15 +0100 Subject: Documentation for Xebec Owl (a 1984 SASI-disk-drive) Message-ID: <20190110175714.GA26270@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Anyone here, owning a Xebec Owl and/or its documentation? The Owl is a SASI-disk-drive from 1984. One could say that it's mostly a Xebec S1410A mounted on a drive, thus eliminating the ST-506-interface. The one I had my hands on seems to be a late version, called the Owl II (20MB instead of 10MB). It shiped with a PC-SASI-controller for the 8-bit-ISA-bus (TTL) and 4KB Boot-ROM (in a 2764-EPROM). The firmware of the Owl II itself seems to be more advanced and bigger than that of the well-known Xebec-bridge-boards: The Owl has 16KB (27128) of firmware, compared to the 4/8KB (2732/64) of a S1410/10A/20. A lot of its commands are explained in the documentation of the S1420 controller, but it seems there are some commands missing, e.g. the command 0x0C. The drive is not compatible with later SCSI equippment. The owner reported, he did not manage to run it with a "modern" PC-SCSI-Controller and I'm not surprised about this: Some commands and codes are incompatible to SCSI/CCS, so the SENSE codes. There is also a command collision with the INQUIRY command, uhhhh :( Does someone own the/some/any documentation for the Owl? It doesn't seem there's much more out there than this brochure: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/xebec/brochures/Xebec_Owl_Datasheet_198410xx.pdf --map From t.gardner at computer.org Thu Jan 10 12:30:15 2019 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 10:30:15 -0800 Subject: Documentation for Xebec Owl (a 1984 SASI-disk-drive) In-Reply-To: <20190110175714.GA26270@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <20190110175714.GA26270@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <009b01d4a912$887e21a0$997a64e0$@computer.org> In early 1984 I was in discussion with Jim Toreson of Xebec about selling them Shugart Corp's SA700 drive mechanics for use in the Owl. He went his own way and I'm pretty sure the Owl embedded the controller into the drive eliminating the ST-506 style interface. That would account for the additional firmware. Toreson moved Xebec to Nevada and he is still there, see: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jim-toreson-a514128/ Maybe he can identify an old engineer with some info in his/her attic or garage ;-) Tom -----Original Message----- From: Martin Peters [mailto:martin at shackspace.de] Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 9:57 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Documentation for Xebec Owl (a 1984 SASI-disk-drive) Anyone here, owning a Xebec Owl and/or its documentation? The Owl is a SASI-disk-drive from 1984. One could say that it's mostly a Xebec S1410A mounted on a drive, thus eliminating the ST-506-interface. The one I had my hands on seems to be a late version, called the Owl II (20MB instead of 10MB). It shiped with a PC-SASI-controller for the 8-bit-ISA-bus (TTL) and 4KB Boot-ROM (in a 2764-EPROM). The firmware of the Owl II itself seems to be more advanced and bigger than that of the well-known Xebec-bridge-boards: The Owl has 16KB (27128) of firmware, compared to the 4/8KB (2732/64) of a S1410/10A/20. A lot of its commands are explained in the documentation of the S1420 controller, but it seems there are some commands missing, e.g. the command 0x0C. The drive is not compatible with later SCSI equippment. The owner reported, he did not manage to run it with a "modern" PC-SCSI-Controller and I'm not surprised about this: Some commands and codes are incompatible to SCSI/CCS, so the SENSE codes. There is also a command collision with the INQUIRY command, uhhhh :( Does someone own the/some/any documentation for the Owl? It doesn't seem there's much more out there than this brochure: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/xebec/brochures/Xebec_Owl_Datasheet_198410xx.pd f --map From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 10 13:10:17 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 19:10:17 +0000 Subject: OT RE: Bogus "account hacked" message In-Reply-To: <5C377EE7.1080408@pico-systems.com> References: <00a701d4a81a$4539f7f0$cfade7d0$@classiccmp.org> <054c01d4a8b4$c8459510$58d0bf30$@gmail.com>, <5C377EE7.1080408@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Early on, I had a telephone call where they told me that their testing showed that my computer had a virus. They would fix it for me for only $50. At the time, I didn't even have a computer connected to the web at home ( lived in the mountains ). Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jon Elson via cctalk Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 9:20 AM To: Dave Wade; General at ezwind.net; Discussion@ Subject: Re: OT RE: Bogus "account hacked" message On 01/10/2019 01:19 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > > I was going to say that permanent blocks on IP addresses seems fruitless. > > I assume that BotNets are compromised end user machines, and that the end > users that have them are on standard dynamic IP address, so when some one > gets one of your blocked addresses..... > > Well, they are not "permanent". I forget what I have it set to, but after some time it does expire them from hosts.deny Likely, I could set that sunset period shorter. Jon From fritzm at fritzm.org Thu Jan 10 13:13:00 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 11:13:00 -0800 Subject: warped RK05 pack -- lost cause? In-Reply-To: References: <0a297698-ed04-4af3-5feb-a6bc7dc68803@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <51907CD9-3BE0-49A7-A01B-BAB85FB95AAF@fritzm.org> > On Jan 10, 2019, at 12:47 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > I don't think it's the platter but perhaps a dirty hub ring or centering cone. Try cleaning the ring and the cone of your disk pack. Ah, thanks ? I?ll take a look! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 10 13:19:27 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 11:19:27 -0800 Subject: warped RK05 pack -- lost cause? In-Reply-To: <0a297698-ed04-4af3-5feb-a6bc7dc68803@fritzm.org> References: <0a297698-ed04-4af3-5feb-a6bc7dc68803@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On 1/9/19 7:50 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > So, one of the things I have along with my 11/45 is an RK05 alignment cartridge.? Unfortunately, its seems warped I think Curious Marc and the Alto restoration crew ran into this same problem that turned out to be mechanical attachment failure at the hub, and not a warped disk. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 10 13:23:22 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 11:23:22 -0800 Subject: warped RK05 pack -- lost cause? In-Reply-To: References: <0a297698-ed04-4af3-5feb-a6bc7dc68803@fritzm.org> Message-ID: http://rescue1130.blogspot.com/2017/11/resolved-copy-and-burn-of-264x-terminal.html On 1/10/19 11:19 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/9/19 7:50 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: >> So, one of the things I have along with my 11/45 is an RK05 alignment cartridge.? Unfortunately, its seems warped > > I think Curious Marc and the Alto restoration crew ran into this same problem that turned out to be mechanical > attachment failure at the hub, and not a warped disk. > > > From fritzm at fritzm.org Thu Jan 10 13:25:58 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 11:25:58 -0800 Subject: warped RK05 pack -- lost cause? In-Reply-To: References: <0a297698-ed04-4af3-5feb-a6bc7dc68803@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <66488F91-7082-4A18-96AF-D576F48B9CC1@fritzm.org> > On Jan 10, 2019, at 11:23 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > http://rescue1130.blogspot.com/2017/11/resolved-copy-and-burn-of-264x-terminal.html Oh, thanks ? I?ll check that out as well! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 10 14:03:27 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:03:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jan 2019, Guy Dunphy wrote: > All my Apple II disks are DOS 3.2. When 3.3 came out, it was a) too much trouble > to convert everything up, and b) ... read that 'missing the wave' story. > It gave me a sour feeling about 3.3. Totally my own fault, but still. If you get any of the existing commercial devices that can read Apple II disks, . . . MOST, if not all, of the ones available are 16 sector. Although the hardware could handle 13 sector, you would need to modify the software. Even the upper level (file system) portions of the code are likely to be hard-coded for 16 SPT. For the MFM formats, avoid USB drives. They tend to be designed solely as PC peripherals, and lack flexibility for even other sector sizes! For FM and 128 bytes per sector (problematic for most PC FDC), check Dave Dunfield's site for MFM imaging utility, and test programs for some FDC capabilities. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 10 14:48:23 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 15:48:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: warped RK05 pack -- lost cause? Message-ID: <20190110204823.0EB7718C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller fritzm at fritzm.org > I'm assuming that if I had to release the media from the hub in order > to true it, its value as an alignment cartridge would be lost anyway. Yes and no.... The RK05 alignment pack is mostly to make sure that the fine lateral track adjustment is correct (i.e. that when the head thinks it's over track 0, it's _really_ over track 0). However, there's also rotational alignment (i.e. start of sector), which is done with the slits in the ring on the pack (so yes, releasing the media from the hub in an ordinary pack will make that pack unreadable - at least until it's reformatted). There is an index/sector timing adjustment procedure, and it uses the alignment pack too, but this rarely needs to be done. Still, if the platter is on wrong, the whole thing's useless anyway. So as long as the platter goes back exactly concentric (and I'm unsure of how the mechanical alignment works, there may be something to assure there's no runout), it should still be usable for the head alignment. (To use it for sector alignment, you'd have to ensure that the drive is aligned for this before-hand, then use it to align the pack.) But check the RK05 Maintenance Manual (EK-RK5JF-MM-001), and see if there's anything I missed. There's also an 'RK05 Subsystem Maintence Course' document (EY-D2055-WB-001) which might contain some useful info. Off to look at the V6 MMU setup code! ;-) Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 10 15:33:03 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 16:33:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Large group of later DEC board on eBay Message-ID: <20190110213303.0FD4E18C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Not my thing (I'm into earlier stuff): https://www.ebay.com/itm/392212420626? but I thought I'd post it since it's filed in an unusual place. Noel From evanlinwood at hotmail.com Thu Jan 10 16:51:09 2019 From: evanlinwood at hotmail.com (Evan Linwood) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 22:51:09 +0000 Subject: Subject: Data General Eclipse microcode manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Peter, Bitsavers has an example for each of 16 & 32 bit Eclipse: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dg/eclipse/014-000050-00_Eclipse_WCS_microPgmg_Nov74.pdf http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dg/mv10000/014-701003_MV10000_microgramming_May83.pdf Did you work in this area much yourself? Rgds Evan From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Thu Jan 10 17:25:14 2019 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 15:25:14 -0800 Subject: Netronics EX85 BASIC dump Message-ID: <043b01d4a93b$bf5e4d20$3e1ae760$@bettercomputing.net> Wondering if anyone has any EPROM dumps of Netronics' BASIC for the Explorer/85. I'd like to set up my own EX/85 for that but also have this little Atlantis 8085 board that I was hoping to experiment with. I've looked all over the interwebs and have had no luck finding a dump, although I have found reference to people dumping them for backup purposes. Many thanks! Brad From guykd at optusnet.com.au Thu Jan 10 18:33:55 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 11:33:55 +1100 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190111113355.01053870@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 12:03 PM 10/01/2019 -0800, you wrote: >On Thu, 10 Jan 2019, Guy Dunphy wrote: >> All my Apple II disks are DOS 3.2. When 3.3 came out, it was a) too much trouble >> to convert everything up, and b) ... read that 'missing the wave' story. >> It gave me a sour feeling about 3.3. Totally my own fault, but still. > >If you get any of the existing commercial devices that can read Apple II >disks, . . . >MOST, if not all, of the ones available are 16 sector. Although the >hardware could handle 13 sector, you would need to modify the software. >Even the upper level (file system) portions of the code are likely to be >hard-coded for 16 SPT. That's a very good point, thanks. Hadn't occured to me, but of course the vast majority of Apple IIs ever sold used the 16 sector format. So that was the target market. Since almost all my A2 disks are DOS 3.2 13 sector, sounds like reading them with the A2 then transferring contents to PC via some link is the way to go. Hmm, I was given an Apple IIe about two decades ago, but never used it. Presumably my Apple DOS 3.2 driver card would work in that, and it could boot DOS 3.2 Possibly that's a fallback plan if I can't resolve the severely flakey operation of my early model, massively hacked Apple II. Assuming the IIe is less flakey. >For the MFM formats, avoid USB drives. They tend to be designed solely as >PC peripherals, and lack flexibility for even other sector sizes! >For FM and 128 bytes per sector (problematic for most PC FDC), check Dave >Dunfield's site for MFM imaging utility, and test programs for some FDC >capabilities. Not to worry about that, I have an attic full of old PC stuff including many old floppy drives of almost all kinds. I like external USB hard disk docks, but USB floppy drives - never had a need for them, never will. Guy From pye at mactec.com.au Thu Jan 10 19:16:07 2019 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 11:16:07 +1000 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190111113355.01053870@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190111113355.01053870@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: > On 11 Jan 2019, at 10:33 am, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > That's a very good point, thanks. Hadn't occured to me, but of course the > vast majority of Apple IIs ever sold used the 16 sector format. So that was > the target market. > Since almost all my A2 disks are DOS 3.2 13 sector, sounds like reading them > with the A2 then transferring contents to PC via some link is the way to go. > > Hmm, I was given an Apple IIe about two decades ago, but never used it. Presumably > my Apple DOS 3.2 driver card would work in that, and it could boot DOS 3.2 > Possibly that's a fallback plan if I can't resolve the severely flakey operation > of my early model, massively hacked Apple II. Assuming the IIe is less flakey. There is a 13 sector version of ADTPro. All you need is a working Apple II or IIe with a floppy drive and serial card (or ethernet card). It can even bootstrap the Apple into 13 sector DOS 3.2 mode and then you can read and transfer disk images to a PC via serial or ethernet. Then use CiderPress to read the files from the disk images. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 10 19:36:48 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 17:36:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190111113355.01053870@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Chris Pye via cctalk wrote: > There is a 13 sector version of ADTPro. All you need is a working Apple II or IIe with a floppy drive and serial card (or ethernet card). > It can even bootstrap the Apple into 13 sector DOS 3.2 mode and then you can read and transfer disk images to a PC via serial or ethernet. > Then use CiderPress to read the files from the disk images. I agree completely, that IFF he can get one of his Apples working (and he does seem to have the expertise to do so), that serial port transfer makes sense, and a DiscFerret or equivalent is not a practical way to go. Although a flux transition device can be fun for some other stuff, such as hard sectored disks, Victor/Sirius, and other non-MFM oddball stuff. From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 19:55:10 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (Allison Parent) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 20:55:10 -0500 Subject: Netronics EX85 BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <043b01d4a93b$bf5e4d20$3e1ae760$@bettercomputing.net> References: <043b01d4a93b$bf5e4d20$3e1ae760$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: Seriously? You haven?t looked. Start with bitsavers, then Dave dunfelds old computers. That?s from memory as I?m on the phone. iPhoned this in! On Jan 10, 2019, at 6:25 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: Wondering if anyone has any EPROM dumps of Netronics' BASIC for the Explorer/85. I'd like to set up my own EX/85 for that but also have this little Atlantis 8085 board that I was hoping to experiment with. I've looked all over the interwebs and have had no luck finding a dump, although I have found reference to people dumping them for backup purposes. Many thanks! Brad From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 20:27:12 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (Allison Parent) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 21:27:12 -0500 Subject: Netronics EX85 BASIC dump In-Reply-To: References: <043b01d4a93b$bf5e4d20$3e1ae760$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: Looked... Hartetechnologies.com Look in Netronics folder. Phoned this in! On Jan 10, 2019, at 8:55 PM, Allison Parent wrote: Seriously? You haven?t looked. Start with bitsavers, then Dave dunfelds old computers. That?s from memory as I?m on the phone. iPhoned this in! On Jan 10, 2019, at 6:25 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: Wondering if anyone has any EPROM dumps of Netronics' BASIC for the Explorer/85. I'd like to set up my own EX/85 for that but also have this little Atlantis 8085 board that I was hoping to experiment with. I've looked all over the interwebs and have had no luck finding a dump, although I have found reference to people dumping them for backup purposes. Many thanks! Brad From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 10 20:41:32 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 18:41:32 -0800 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190111113355.01053870@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 1/10/19 5:16 PM, Chris Pye via cctalk wrote: > There is a 13 sector version of ADTPro. All you need is a working > Apple II or IIe with a floppy drive and serial card (or ethernet > card). It can even bootstrap the Apple into 13 sector DOS 3.2 mode > and then you can read and transfer disk images to a PC via serial or > ethernet. Then use CiderPress to read the files from the disk > images. Jim Sather's "Understanding the Apple IIe" has a wonderful exposition on the workings of the Apple II disk controller. Without having an Apple II at my disposal in the 80s, I was able to construct a rather simple ISA card for a PC that would read Apple floppies. Then I got a MatchPoint PC card. Now, of course, handling Apple II floppies can be done with $3 microcontroller card. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 10 20:47:22 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 19:47:22 -0700 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190111113355.01053870@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <0b6ff67b-1721-8a7b-e7c6-c5f86d9ad2a7@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/10/2019 7:41 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/10/19 5:16 PM, Chris Pye via cctalk wrote: > >> There is a 13 sector version of ADTPro. All you need is a working >> Apple II or IIe with a floppy drive and serial card (or ethernet >> card). It can even bootstrap the Apple into 13 sector DOS 3.2 mode >> and then you can read and transfer disk images to a PC via serial or >> ethernet. Then use CiderPress to read the files from the disk >> images. > > Jim Sather's "Understanding the Apple IIe" has a wonderful exposition on > the workings of the Apple II disk controller. Without having an Apple > II at my disposal in the 80s, I was able to construct a rather simple > ISA card for a PC that would read Apple floppies. > > Then I got a MatchPoint PC card. > > Now, of course, handling Apple II floppies can be done with $3 > microcontroller card. > > --Chuck > Or emulated with a 39 cent part not counting connectors. Ben. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Thu Jan 10 20:53:28 2019 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 18:53:28 -0800 Subject: Netronics EX85 BASIC dump In-Reply-To: References: <043b01d4a93b$bf5e4d20$3e1ae760$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <047e01d4a958$d551a1a0$7ff4e4e0$@bettercomputing.net> Well now I feel stupid. But I must have put in about 20 different search terms with google and nothing from harte came up. Only when I specifically googled hartechnologies netronics did it show. Funny enough, I had been in that site before. Just forgot about it as it was a long time ago. -----Original Message----- From: Allison Parent [mailto:allisonportable at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 6:27 PM To: Brad H ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Netronics EX85 BASIC dump Looked... Hartetechnologies.com Look in Netronics folder. Phoned this in! On Jan 10, 2019, at 8:55 PM, Allison Parent wrote: Seriously? You haven?t looked. Start with bitsavers, then Dave dunfelds old computers. That?s from memory as I?m on the phone. iPhoned this in! On Jan 10, 2019, at 6:25 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: Wondering if anyone has any EPROM dumps of Netronics' BASIC for the Explorer/85. I'd like to set up my own EX/85 for that but also have this little Atlantis 8085 board that I was hoping to experiment with. I've looked all over the interwebs and have had no luck finding a dump, although I have found reference to people dumping them for backup purposes. Many thanks! Brad From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 10 21:05:00 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 19:05:00 -0800 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: <0b6ff67b-1721-8a7b-e7c6-c5f86d9ad2a7@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190111113355.01053870@mail.optusnet.com.au> <0b6ff67b-1721-8a7b-e7c6-c5f86d9ad2a7@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 1/10/19 6:47 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Or emulated with a 39 cent part not counting connectors. You could certainly beat that 39 cent MCU with CH554 for 25 cents. But getting too cheap on this one-off sort of stuff gets silly after awhile. --Chuck From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 09:50:50 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 15:50:50 +0000 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190111022752.0114faf8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <236ab4d6-73fe-3e6d-2e4d-6bfca34cbb5e@gmail.com> <3.0.6.32.20190111022752.0114faf8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 12:55 PM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > Cool, another possible. Ironically I have a 9121 and a 9123, not a 9122. > Now to work out whether the difference is significant. I think that other than the PSU, the HP9122 and HP9123 are much the same. The HP9122 has an internal PSU (runs off the mains supply), the HP9123 takes in +5V and +12V over that cable ending in the 5 pin DIN plug. It was designed for use with the HP150-II which has a suitable power output socket. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 11 11:05:38 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 09:05:38 -0800 Subject: Interest in a DiscFerret? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04a6d7d5-7b6a-f184-00e6-08237a5306a9@xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20190110132648.00e298e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190110194535.01119b98@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190111113355.01053870@mail.optusnet.com.au> <0b6ff67b-1721-8a7b-e7c6-c5f86d9ad2a7@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <011b1016-9565-2dec-e9f0-f4d136922db7@bitsavers.org> On 1/10/19 7:05 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > But getting too cheap on this one-off sort of stuff gets silly after awhile. But cctlk navel contemplation and bile generation is sooo much more fun than producing anything USEFUL From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 11 11:28:00 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 17:28:00 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190109192352.F370A18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Well, it has been so long since I had to put together an entire system I forgot what fun it can be. With almost documentation I was able to configure 4 1meg memory modules and I tested them all in my 11/23+ box. KDJ11-B with 4 different (but similar) memory cards. "MAP" option of the KDJ11 shows 4 meg (minus the I/O Page) and all the right CSR's for the first four blocks. Really wanted to make this a deskside so I moved the cards to a MicroPDP box (Yes, I have a coule of the deskside pedestals). Power on, Memory CSR error. Move then back to the 11/23+ works fine. If I only put the first three in the MicroPDP box it works. But as soon as I try to put in a fourth module I get the memory CSR error. Tried different cards (although working in the 11/23+ box would make me think it is not a problem with the card) no help. Anybody care to take a stab at what might be causing this problem? bill From sales at elecplus.com Fri Jan 11 11:37:37 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 11:37:37 -0600 Subject: Who is in Houston? Message-ID: <07a801d4a9d4$58a4c020$09ee4060$@com> 2 storage sheds were bought at auction. Includes mainframes, terminals, dot matrix printers, monitors, PS/2 and PS/2 machines, etc. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 11:41:56 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 12:41:56 -0500 Subject: Who is in Houston? In-Reply-To: <07a801d4a9d4$58a4c020$09ee4060$@com> References: <07a801d4a9d4$58a4c020$09ee4060$@com> Message-ID: Who bought the pile? What are the mainframes? Ex Houston Computer Museum? -- Will On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 12:38 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > 2 storage sheds were bought at auction. Includes mainframes, terminals, dot > matrix printers, monitors, PS/2 and PS/2 machines, etc. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jan 11 11:43:56 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 10:43:56 -0700 Subject: Who is in Houston? In-Reply-To: <07a801d4a9d4$58a4c020$09ee4060$@com> References: <07a801d4a9d4$58a4c020$09ee4060$@com> Message-ID: <157e4bb2-2569-6f89-b4a7-ea3c619c1643@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Hi Cindy, On 01/11/2019 10:37 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > 2 storage sheds were bought at auction. Includes mainframes, terminals, > dot matrix printers, monitors, PS/2 and PS/2 machines, etc. Can I get more details on this? I know someone that's in Texas (other than you) that owns a mainframe and would likely be interested. I'm also interested in poking him to investigate the PS/2s. I also have access to a PS/2 grapevine that I should probably shake. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From sales at elecplus.com Fri Jan 11 11:49:33 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 11:49:33 -0600 Subject: IBM in TX Message-ID: <07ea01d4a9d6$031154f0$0933fed0$@com> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xwq1JKaMPVXLXJwhocWf9qTogANG2iye This is the pic I was sent. Original msg should have said PS/1 and PS/2. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 11:56:45 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 17:56:45 -0000 Subject: IBM in TX In-Reply-To: <07ea01d4a9d6$031154f0$0933fed0$@com> References: <07ea01d4a9d6$031154f0$0933fed0$@com> Message-ID: <0e2f01d4a9d7$04b26550$0e172ff0$@gmail.com> Looks like the "Mainframe" is an IBM Series/1 which is not a Mainframe, and I would say has limited appeal to collectors as there are few resources out there as the software is all fully licenced so its had to make legal copies. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Electronics Plus > via cctalk > Sent: 11 January 2019 17:50 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: IBM in TX > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xwq1JKaMPVXLXJwhocWf9qTogANG2iy > e > > > > This is the pic I was sent. Original msg should have said PS/1 and PS/2. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 11:58:17 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 12:58:17 -0500 Subject: IBM in TX In-Reply-To: <0e2f01d4a9d7$04b26550$0e172ff0$@gmail.com> References: <07ea01d4a9d6$031154f0$0933fed0$@com> <0e2f01d4a9d7$04b26550$0e172ff0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Looks like the "Mainframe" is an IBM Series/1 which is not a Mainframe, and > I would say has limited appeal to collectors as there are few resources out > there as the software is all fully licenced so its had to make legal copies. It does not help that the OS software also sucks. -- Will From jon at jonworld.com Fri Jan 11 12:02:48 2019 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 18:02:48 +0000 Subject: IBM in TX In-Reply-To: <07ea01d4a9d6$031154f0$0933fed0$@com> References: <07ea01d4a9d6$031154f0$0933fed0$@com> Message-ID: I spy some Sun CRTs and that ATEX cabinet looks interesting. On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 5:49 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xwq1JKaMPVXLXJwhocWf9qTogANG2iye > > > > This is the pic I was sent. Original msg should have said PS/1 and PS/2. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 From sales at elecplus.com Fri Jan 11 12:06:23 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 12:06:23 -0600 Subject: IBM in TX In-Reply-To: References: <07ea01d4a9d6$031154f0$0933fed0$@com> Message-ID: <080101d4a9d8$5d3065f0$179131d0$@com> You guys decide what looks interesting and what you want to pay for it. The Series/1 is already claimed, but there is another big beast, not in the pic. Somebody make a spreadsheet or something. I am willing to go to Houston, and I have a friend from Austin with a truck and trailer that will help out, but I have no room to store stuff. I can't post to this chat from anything but the office computer for some reason, so I won't be able to post pics of what is there when I go. How do I fix this? Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Katz via cctalk Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 12:03 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM in TX I spy some Sun CRTs and that ATEX cabinet looks interesting. On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 5:49 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xwq1JKaMPVXLXJwhocWf9qTogANG2iye > > > > This is the pic I was sent. Original msg should have said PS/1 and PS/2. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 From linimon at lonesome.com Fri Jan 11 12:07:25 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 18:07:25 +0000 Subject: Who is in Houston? In-Reply-To: <07a801d4a9d4$58a4c020$09ee4060$@com> References: <07a801d4a9d4$58a4c020$09ee4060$@com> Message-ID: <20190111180725.GA31262@lonesome.com> I'm in Austin but am due for a road trip to Houston I suppose. If no one else in Houston can go check it out ... mcl From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jan 11 12:09:29 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 18:09:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: IBM in TX References: <1605707327.17127887.1547230169396.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1605707327.17127887.1547230169396@mail.yahoo.com> thank God? ?for? Hoarders!? ?what a? ?stash! In a message dated 1/11/2019 10:49:45 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xwq1JKaMPVXLXJwhocWf9qTogANG2iye This is the pic I was sent. Original msg should have said PS/1 and PS/2. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus From linimon at lonesome.com Fri Jan 11 12:10:17 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 18:10:17 +0000 Subject: IBM in TX In-Reply-To: <07ea01d4a9d6$031154f0$0933fed0$@com> References: <07ea01d4a9d6$031154f0$0933fed0$@com> Message-ID: <20190111181017.GB31262@lonesome.com> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 11:49:33AM -0600, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xwq1JKaMPVXLXJwhocWf9qTogANG2iye That looks like a job for many, many, people. mcl From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jan 11 12:20:43 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 10:20:43 -0800 Subject: IBM in TX In-Reply-To: <20190111181017.GB31262@lonesome.com> References: <07ea01d4a9d6$031154f0$0933fed0$@com> <20190111181017.GB31262@lonesome.com> Message-ID: I think I see an H960 with a couple DEC half panels stuck on it peeking out of the very back there... From ryan at diskfutility.com Fri Jan 11 12:36:53 2019 From: ryan at diskfutility.com (Ryan Eisworth) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 12:36:53 -0600 Subject: Who is in Houston? In-Reply-To: <07a801d4a9d4$58a4c020$09ee4060$@com> References: <07a801d4a9d4$58a4c020$09ee4060$@com> Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2019, at 11:37 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > 2 storage sheds were bought at auction. Includes mainframes, terminals, dot > matrix printers, monitors, PS/2 and PS/2 machines, etc. I'm very close to Houston (Brenham) and I make trips there several times a week. -- Ryan Eisworth From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jan 11 12:49:11 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 10:49:11 -0800 Subject: IBM in TX In-Reply-To: References: <07ea01d4a9d6$031154f0$0933fed0$@com> <0e2f01d4a9d7$04b26550$0e172ff0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <707DE5C9-2402-4405-8A3A-779EFA9259E1@shiresoft.com> > On Jan 11, 2019, at 9:58 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > >> Looks like the "Mainframe" is an IBM Series/1 which is not a Mainframe, and >> I would say has limited appeal to collectors as there are few resources out >> there as the software is all fully licenced so its had to make legal copies. > > It does not help that the OS software also sucks. There once was a port of Unix to the Series/1. Long story but the Unix center of competency for IBM was first at Boca Raton (with Series/1 as the platform). At the time AT&T offered to sell IBM the full rights to Unix and AT&T would get out of the Unix biz. Then there was a political battle between Boca Raton and Austin. Boca lost and the rest as they say is history. As part of that *all* (as in every shred of) Unix for the Series/1 was destroyed (with IBM security looking on to make sure nothing was missed). TTFN - Guy From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jan 11 12:58:24 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 13:58:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM in TX Message-ID: <20190111185824.5881B18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > I think I see an H960 with a couple DEC half panels stuck on it peeking > out of the very back there... Two H960's, actually - it looks like there's another one in front of that one. If the half panels are for sale, I'll take them! :-) Noel From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 13:25:20 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (Allison Parent) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 14:25:20 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190109192352.F370A18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8D588A91-B196-4A71-BC4A-C5AB745572A4@gmail.com> Most Probable cause is interrupt grant is broken. For most microspheres backplanes the first three slots are different than remaining. Phoned this in! On Jan 11, 2019, at 12:28 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: Well, it has been so long since I had to put together an entire system I forgot what fun it can be. With almost documentation I was able to configure 4 1meg memory modules and I tested them all in my 11/23+ box. KDJ11-B with 4 different (but similar) memory cards. "MAP" option of the KDJ11 shows 4 meg (minus the I/O Page) and all the right CSR's for the first four blocks. Really wanted to make this a deskside so I moved the cards to a MicroPDP box (Yes, I have a coule of the deskside pedestals). Power on, Memory CSR error. Move then back to the 11/23+ works fine. If I only put the first three in the MicroPDP box it works. But as soon as I try to put in a fourth module I get the memory CSR error. Tried different cards (although working in the 11/23+ box would make me think it is not a problem with the card) no help. Anybody care to take a stab at what might be causing this problem? bill From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jan 11 13:26:54 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 11:26:54 -0800 Subject: IBM in TX In-Reply-To: <20190111185824.5881B18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190111185824.5881B18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > If the half panels are for sale, I'll take them! :-) They?d nicely compliment or house those new QSIC indicator panels you?ve been working up, huh? :-) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jan 11 13:32:34 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 14:32:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 Memory Message-ID: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Allison Parent > Most Probable cause is interrupt grant is broken. The only -11 that complains if the grant chain is broken that I know of is the /34 (maybe the /04 too). I certainly have a QBUS chassis right next to my workstation here that i) has a bunch of empty slots, and ii) works fine, as long as there are no empty slots between the CPU and the devices. Also, IIRC he said it works with 3 cards plugged in, but not 4; how can plugging a card _in_ cause grant problems? > For most microspheres backplanes the first three slots are different > than remaining. That might be worth checking into. I'm not familiar with the second box he's using, so can't help there. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jan 11 13:44:08 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 14:44:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM in TX Message-ID: <20190111194408.44F0018C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > They'd nicely compliment or house those new QSIC indicator panels > you've been working up, huh? :-) Complement. I already have a large stack of empty bezels, acquired to hold the indicator panels... :-) Although Dave Bridgham has been playing with the CNC mill at his local makespace (he's already turned out a bunch of light shields for me), and he now has a prototype of a thing which combines the bezel and light shield. So maybe the empty bezels will instead get paired with blank sheets to make a stack of 1/2-width blank panels. Someone still makes that 'pebbled' sheet like what DEC used in blank panels, but we haven't acquired any yet to see just how close a match it is. (Anyone happen to know?) Noel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 11 13:55:35 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:55:35 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: <8D588A91-B196-4A71-BC4A-C5AB745572A4@gmail.com> References: <20190109192352.F370A18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8D588A91-B196-4A71-BC4A-C5AB745572A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/11/19 2:25 PM, Allison Parent via cctalk wrote: > Most Probable cause is interrupt grant is broken. For most microspheres backplanes the first three slots are different than remaining. Yes, that's true. But the problem doesn't occur until the 5th slot. And a quick look at the C-D edges of the board shows that the BUS Grant lines are jumpered. So the 2 A-B slots should pass the grants just fine. I saw no mention about these not working in A-B/A-B backplanes. The only mention the docs make at all is that the only lines used on C-D slots is power. bill > > > Phoned this in! > > > On Jan 11, 2019, at 12:28 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > Well, it has been so long since I had to put together an > entire system I forgot what fun it can be. > > With almost documentation I was able to configure 4 1meg > memory modules and I tested them all in my 11/23+ box. > > > KDJ11-B with 4 different (but similar) memory cards. > "MAP" option of the KDJ11 shows 4 meg (minus the I/O > Page) and all the right CSR's for the first four blocks. > > Really wanted to make this a deskside so I moved the > cards to a MicroPDP box (Yes, I have a coule of the > deskside pedestals). Power on, Memory CSR error. > Move then back to the 11/23+ works fine. If I only > put the first three in the MicroPDP box it works. > But as soon as I try to put in a fourth module I > get the memory CSR error. Tried different cards > (although working in the 11/23+ box would make me > think it is not a problem with the card) no help. > > Anybody care to take a stab at what might be causing > this problem? > > bill > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 11 13:59:14 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:59:14 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/11/19 2:32 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Allison Parent > > > Most Probable cause is interrupt grant is broken. > > The only -11 that complains if the grant chain is broken that I know of is > the /34 (maybe the /04 too). I certainly have a QBUS chassis right next to my > workstation here that i) has a bunch of empty slots, and ii) works fine, as > long as there are no empty slots between the CPU and the devices. > > Also, IIRC he said it works with 3 cards plugged in, but not 4; how can > plugging a card _in_ cause grant problems? > > > For most microspheres backplanes the first three slots are different > > than remaining. > > That might be worth checking into. I'm not familiar with the second box > he's using, so can't help there. MicroPDP box has first three slots A-B-C-D to support PMI memory and the rest are serpentine A-B. Even giving a bus grant problem, I can't see that causing a CSR error. I will probably have to dig out another box this weekend just to be sure there isn't a problem with the backplane. bill From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 14:24:45 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 15:24:45 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <08b19add-11d7-cb36-e780-c41727a84cdc@gmail.com> On 01/11/2019 02:32 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Allison Parent > > > Most Probable cause is interrupt grant is broken. > > The only -11 that complains if the grant chain is broken that I know of is > the /34 (maybe the /04 too). I certainly have a QBUS chassis right next to my > workstation here that i) has a bunch of empty slots, and ii) works fine, as > long as there are no empty slots between the CPU and the devices. I'm far from a newby to Qbus 11s as I stated with LSI-11 nearly 4 decades ago and I ahve all Qbus models of note from LSI-11(quad), 11/2 (dual) , 11/23(dual) 11/23(quad), 11/23B(quad), 11/73(dual) in various BA11VA,? BA-11s, BA11N, BA23, BA123, and also microVAXII in BA23 and BA123.? Which covers about eight different Qbus backplane variations not including the Heath H11 and a engineering one off (8 slot dual width with bigger supply sorta like taller a BA11VA 4 slot.? Small advantage to being a Millrat.?? I forgo most non-Qbus 11s to specialize. All of my 11s are Qbus and yes they complain if the interrupt grant chain is broken. Missing CSR is the usual complaint. Typical micorpdp-11 Qbus is: First three slots after CPU the CD slots are open use, or be used or memory private bus. ABCD CPU ABCD? where CD is memory wired not bus ABCD ABCD? up to this slot memory does not have to grant interrupts on the right (CD)side of quad cards ABAB? All cards dual or quad must have int grant jumper of the board or grant card. ABAB ABAB ABAB > Also, IIRC he said it works with 3 cards plugged in, but not 4; how can > plugging a card _in_ cause grant problems? See the above...? Qbus is can or cannot be uniform for quad or dual width cards. For most only bus slots that are AB bussed are data/address.? But they can be serpentine for quad wide systems and most quad wide board have interrupt grant jumpers on the board or are just hardwired that way. Qbus is not Unibus.? You can build a Qbus system of all dual width cards, some Qbus system memory uses PMI.? For example I have an 11/23b+ in a quad width BA11-N but the backplane is nonstandard ,18 slots of Q22 ABAB (serpentine wired).? It has? a quad width 11/23B and 8 MSV11 256KB dual width Q22 memory. RQDX3 dual width, RXV21 RX02, DRV11J and a M7555 (also found in MicroVAXII in BA123 boxes, takes the 50pin wide RQDX breaks it out for multiple RX33 floppy and RD32 drives). There are many Qbus? backplanes? and several different configurations for DUAL/QUAD mixes of cards.? The Microvax Qbus backplanes also fit in that realm such as BA123 with J11 cpus installed and PMI ram.? Also many of the Qbus can be Q16(not many), Q18(fairly common) and Q22(only late and MicroVax) address bus width. The microcomputers handbook is a start and the modules manuals. Typically you need a 1980 version and a later 80s versions.? Also the LSI-11 Systems Service Manual Volumes 1 and 2.? Generally the more docs you have for Qbus 11 systems and the MicroVAX kin the less pain you will have configuring them especially for non standard configurations or systems with mix and match boards. Allison From jsw at ieee.org Fri Jan 11 14:34:10 2019 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 14:34:10 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190109192352.F370A18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/11/19 11:28 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Well, it has been so long since I had to put together an > entire system I forgot what fun it can be. > > With almost documentation I was able to configure 4 1meg > memory modules and I tested them all in my 11/23+ box. > > > KDJ11-B with 4 different (but similar) memory cards. > "MAP" option of the KDJ11 shows 4 meg (minus the I/O > Page) and all the right CSR's for the first four blocks. > > Really wanted to make this a deskside so I moved the > cards to a MicroPDP box (Yes, I have a coule of the > deskside pedestals). Power on, Memory CSR error. > Move then back to the 11/23+ works fine. If I only > put the first three in the MicroPDP box it works. > But as soon as I try to put in a fourth module I > get the memory CSR error. Tried different cards > (although working in the 11/23+ box would make me > think it is not a problem with the card) no help. > > Anybody care to take a stab at what might be causing > this problem? 1) You might want to check your power supply loading.?? You have a lot of memory of chips to feed. ? The H7864 output at +5V is 36 amps.? Between the KDJ11-B and 4 memory boards you may be using between 20-25 amps. Add a? disk controller, disk drive and any other Q-bus devices might bring you close to the limits for either +5V or +12V from an aging supply. 2) Are the CSR addresses between 17772100-06?? Have you tried to move them above this range just to see if the behavior changes? ? Jerry From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jan 11 14:38:43 2019 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 20:38:43 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 11/01/2019 19:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > MicroPDP box has first three slots A-B-C-D to support PMI > memory and the rest are serpentine A-B. > > Even giving a bus grant problem, I can't see that causing a CSR > error. I will probably have to dig out another box this weekend > just to be sure there isn't a problem with the backplane. Without knowing exactly what cards you've got in there, it's hard to tell. There are quad-height cards that work only in straight (A.B.C.D) backplanes/slots, and quad cards that work in either straight or serpentine. There are cards that use or expect (or won't permit) certain signals on some pins which work fine in 18-bit backplanes but not 22-bit. There are things that will work in a BA11-S with H9276 backplane (which is what you had, if it really was a PDP-11/23plus) but not a BA23. You probably need to make a list of what you're using and check through the relevant Micronotes about compatibility. BTW, BA23 and BA123 microPDP-11 backplanes aren't the same - it's the first 4 slots that differ in a BA123, and slot 13 is different again. Take a look at http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis -- Pete Pete Turnbull From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 14:41:34 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 15:41:34 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190109192352.F370A18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8D588A91-B196-4A71-BC4A-C5AB745572A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <27a29126-d889-0dca-7315-8312917f15ca@gmail.com> On 01/11/2019 02:55 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 1/11/19 2:25 PM, Allison Parent via cctalk wrote: >> Most Probable cause is interrupt grant is broken. For most microspheres backplanes the first three slots are different than remaining. > Yes, that's true. But the problem doesn't occur until the 5th slot. > And a quick look at the C-D edges of the board shows that the BUS > Grant lines are jumpered. So the 2 A-B slots should pass the grants > just fine. I saw no mention about these not working in A-B/A-B > backplanes. The only mention the docs make at all is that the > only lines used on C-D slots is power. > > bill > That is generally true... however there were more than a few odd backplanes including a few that were wired for Core and some design to suit a different memory and incompatible (smoke releasing!).? Others are unique as the RL11 two board set require a CD backplane slot pair (will not work if ABAB). You need to look at the backplane and find out what one it is. I have a few boxes I got without a backplane at all and as a result they have what I find was most useful and very non standard. The CSR complaint is because if you talk to the board and don't get a int vector or can't set a working one (floating)? the CSR is broke.? This is a behavior that is much different from unibus.? It also happens if an expected CSR is non standard for nominal drivers.? An example is my 11/73 as it has 2 RQDX3 so one has to be at a new and unusual CSR same for the second DLV11J serial.? Some memory (parity or ECC) also have CSRs and if they interupt and the drive is not there I've heard havoc ensues (of all my memory on hand none have that). Irs a side effect of the Q bus starting in the 70s (LSI-11) and continuing with some evolution though the 90s (11/83 and 11/9x). Allison From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 11 14:44:05 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 20:44:05 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: <08b19add-11d7-cb36-e780-c41727a84cdc@gmail.com> References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <08b19add-11d7-cb36-e780-c41727a84cdc@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/11/19 3:24 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 01/11/2019 02:32 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> > From: Allison Parent >> >> > Most Probable cause is interrupt grant is broken. >> >> The only -11 that complains if the grant chain is broken that I know of is >> the /34 (maybe the /04 too). I certainly have a QBUS chassis right next to my >> workstation here that i) has a bunch of empty slots, and ii) works fine, as >> long as there are no empty slots between the CPU and the devices. > I'm far from a newby to Qbus 11s as I stated with LSI-11 nearly 4 > decades ago Me too. :-) I have had them in my house for more than two decades. No more UNIBUS (but I really miss my 11/24 which was my first personal PDP-11). > and I ahve all Qbus models of note from LSI-11(quad), 11/2 (dual) , > 11/23(dual) > 11/23(quad), 11/23B(quad), 11/73(dual) in various BA11VA,? BA-11s, BA11N, > BA23, BA123, and also microVAXII in BA23 and BA123.? Which covers about > eight different Qbus backplane variations not including the Heath H11 and a > engineering one off (8 slot dual width with bigger supply sorta like > taller a > BA11VA 4 slot.? Small advantage to being a Millrat.?? I forgo most > non-Qbus 11s > to specialize. I have so many different backplanes I have to look them up every time I pull a different system out. But I have been playing with the hardware for a while so none of them were "official" configurations. Or stable configurations as I kept changing them. But, now I need to build a few stable, supported systems so I can play with some software. > > All of my 11s are Qbus and yes they complain if the interrupt grant > chain is broken. > Missing CSR is the usual complaint. That's interesting. All I ever saw from a missing bus grant was a dead machine where the CPU wouldn't even run. Going to have to review it, but as I said earlier a quick glance at the memory cards shows bus grant pins connected with a trace. > > Typical micorpdp-11 Qbus is: > > First three slots after CPU the CD slots are open use, or be used or > memory private bus. Are you sure? My Pocket Service Guide confirms what I said. First three slots A-B-C-D all the rest serpentine A-B. > ABCD CPU > ABCD? where CD is memory wired not bus > ABCD > ABCD? up to this slot memory does not have to grant interrupts on the > right (CD)side of quad cards > ABAB? All cards dual or quad must have int grant jumper of the board or > grant card. > ABAB > ABAB > ABAB > >> Also, IIRC he said it works with 3 cards plugged in, but not 4; how can >> plugging a card _in_ cause grant problems? He is right here. The third memory card in in a pair of A-B slots. The first serpentine. The fourth memory card would be in the next A-B pair but o n the revers of the serpentine. S, actually there are two A-B slots between them that need bus grant. Now I need to figure out why the bus grand is not going thru. > See the above...? Qbus is can or cannot be uniform for quad or dual > width cards. > For most only bus slots that are AB bussed are data/address.? But they > can be > serpentine for quad wide systems and most quad wide board have interrupt > grant jumpers on the board or are just hardwired that way. > > Qbus is not Unibus.? You can build a Qbus system of all dual width > cards, some > Qbus system memory uses PMI. > > For example I have an 11/23b+ in a quad width BA11-N but the backplane is > nonstandard ,18 slots of Q22 ABAB (serpentine wired).? It has? a quad > width 11/23B > and 8 MSV11 256KB dual width Q22 memory. RQDX3 dual width, RXV21 RX02, > DRV11J and a M7555 (also found in MicroVAXII in BA123 boxes, takes the > 50pin > wide RQDX breaks it out for multiple RX33 floppy and RD32 drives). > > There are many Qbus? backplanes? and several different configurations for > DUAL/QUAD mixes of cards.? The Microvax Qbus backplanes also fit in that > realm such as BA123 with J11 cpus installed and PMI ram.? Also many of the > Qbus can be Q16(not many), Q18(fairly common) and Q22(only late and > MicroVax) address bus width. > > The microcomputers handbook is a start and the modules manuals. > Typically you need a 1980 version and a later 80s versions.? Also the > LSI-11 Systems Service Manual Volumes 1 and 2.? Generally the more > docs you have for Qbus 11 systems and the MicroVAX kin the less pain > you will have configuring them especially for non standard configurations > or systems with mix and match boards. My documentation is very limited and my memory isn't what it used to be. But this seems like a problem that should not be there. At least it gives me something to do now that it is too cold to go outside. Nothing worse than being this cold and the slopes have no snow on them. :-) bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 11 14:48:50 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 20:48:50 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190109192352.F370A18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/11/19 3:34 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > On 1/11/19 11:28 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> Well, it has been so long since I had to put together an >> entire system I forgot what fun it can be. >> >> With almost documentation I was able to configure 4 1meg >> memory modules and I tested them all in my 11/23+ box. >> >> >> KDJ11-B with 4 different (but similar) memory cards. >> "MAP" option of the KDJ11 shows 4 meg (minus the I/O >> Page) and all the right CSR's for the first four blocks. >> >> Really wanted to make this a deskside so I moved the >> cards to a MicroPDP box (Yes, I have a coule of the >> deskside pedestals). Power on, Memory CSR error. >> Move then back to the 11/23+ works fine. If I only >> put the first three in the MicroPDP box it works. >> But as soon as I try to put in a fourth module I >> get the memory CSR error. Tried different cards >> (although working in the 11/23+ box would make me >> think it is not a problem with the card) no help. >> >> Anybody care to take a stab at what might be causing >> this problem? > 1) You might want to check your power supply loading.?? You have a lot > of memory of chips to feed. ? The H7864 output at +5V is 36 amps. > Between the KDJ11-B and 4 memory boards you may be using between 20-25 > amps. Add a? disk controller, disk drive and any other Q-bus devices > might bring you close to the limits for either +5V or +12V from an aging > supply. Nothing but CPU and memory at this point. And there will never be drives as I will be using SCSI and 6 of them sit in a box of their own just waiting for the PDP-11 to wake up and smell the coffee. > > 2) Are the CSR addresses between 17772100-06?? Have you tried to move > them above this range just to see if the behavior changes? CSR's are right. As I said, the combo worked until I moved it to a different backplane. I think Allison has the idea. I am going to go back and look into bus grants. But I would have thought they would be alright as the likelihood of these being in a serpentine A-B box seems much to likely for them to not be capable of it. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 11 14:51:17 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 20:51:17 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/11/19 3:38 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 11/01/2019 19:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> MicroPDP box has first three slots A-B-C-D to support PMI >> memory and the rest are serpentine A-B. >> >> Even giving a bus grant problem, I can't see that causing a CSR >> error.? I will probably have to dig out another box this weekend >> just to be sure there isn't a problem with the backplane. > > Without knowing exactly what cards you've got in there, it's hard to > tell.? There are quad-height cards that work only in straight (A.B.C.D) > backplanes/slots, and quad cards that work in either straight or > serpentine. There are cards that use or expect (or won't permit) certain > signals on some pins which work fine in 18-bit backplanes but not > 22-bit.? There are things that will work in a BA11-S with H9276 > backplane (which is what you had, if it really was a PDP-11/23plus) but > not a BA23.? You probably need to make a list of what you're using and > check through the relevant Micronotes about compatibility. Listed what I'm using in the beginning of this thread. Just CPU and Memory at this point. Will add disk and network when I get this part working. > > BTW, BA23 and BA123 microPDP-11 backplanes aren't the same - it's the > first 4 slots that differ in a BA123, and slot 13 is different again. > Take a look at http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis > Mine are all BA23. Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX? bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 11 14:54:08 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 20:54:08 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: <27a29126-d889-0dca-7315-8312917f15ca@gmail.com> References: <20190109192352.F370A18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8D588A91-B196-4A71-BC4A-C5AB745572A4@gmail.com> <27a29126-d889-0dca-7315-8312917f15ca@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/11/19 3:41 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 01/11/2019 02:55 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/11/19 2:25 PM, Allison Parent via cctalk wrote: >>> Most Probable cause is interrupt grant is broken. For most microspheres backplanes the first three slots are different than remaining. >> Yes, that's true. But the problem doesn't occur until the 5th slot. >> And a quick look at the C-D edges of the board shows that the BUS >> Grant lines are jumpered. So the 2 A-B slots should pass the grants >> just fine. I saw no mention about these not working in A-B/A-B >> backplanes. The only mention the docs make at all is that the >> only lines used on C-D slots is power. >> >> bill >> > That is generally true... however there were more than a few odd backplanes > including a few that were wired for Core and some design to suit a > different > memory and incompatible (smoke releasing!).? Others are unique as the RL11 > two board set require a CD backplane slot pair (will not work if ABAB). Not only that, it will kill the RL11. > > You need to look at the backplane and find out what one it is. > > I have a few boxes I got without a backplane at all and as a result they > have > what I find was most useful and very non standard. > > The CSR complaint is because if you talk to the board and don't get a > int vector > or can't set a working one (floating)? the CSR is broke.? This is a > behavior that > is much different from unibus.? It also happens if an expected CSR is > non standard > for nominal drivers.? An example is my 11/73 as it has 2 RQDX3 so one > has to be > at a new and unusual CSR same for the second DLV11J serial.? Some memory > (parity or ECC) also have CSRs and if they interupt and the drive is not > there > I've heard havoc ensues (of all my memory on hand none have that). > > Irs a side effect of the Q bus starting in the 70s (LSI-11) and > continuing with > some evolution though the 90s (11/83 and 11/9x). > At this point I am going with your comment about bus grant. I don't know why but that seems to be the likely culprit. More to follow if I get this working. bill From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jan 11 15:34:45 2019 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 21:34:45 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/01/2019 20:51, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Listed what I'm using in the beginning of this thread. > Just CPU and Memory at this point. OK, I didn't see that - sorry. >> BTW, BA23 and BA123 microPDP-11 backplanes aren't the same - it's the >> first 4 slots that differ in a BA123, and slot 13 is different again. >> Take a look at http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis > Mine are all BA23. Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX? No, it was introduced for the microPDP-11 series, and only later used for MicroVAX and MicroVAX-II. There are many microPDP-11/83 machines in BA123 cabinets, it was a very popular option because of the space for storage devices and the extra backplane slots. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 17:58:04 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 18:58:04 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 3:51 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Mine are all BA23. Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX? As sold, most likely. I don't think DEC ever configured any MicroPDP systems in a BA123 but no reason it doesn't work. I got an empty BA123 a while back and when I get a nice KDJ11 board, I'll load it up. I already have a KA610 and KA630 in BA23 boxes. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 17:59:57 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 18:59:57 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 4:39 PM Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > > Mine are all BA23. Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX? > > No, it was introduced for the microPDP-11 series, and only later used > for MicroVAX and MicroVAX-II. There are many microPDP-11/83 machines in > BA123 cabinets, it was a very popular option because of the space for > storage devices and the extra backplane slots. Hmm... I did not know they put the 11/83 in a BA123. It makes sense since, as you say, there's room for storage devices and plenty of slots. The first BA123 system I ever saw was a KA630/uVAX-II in 1986. We put Ultrix T-2.0 on it and ran it for several years. -ethan From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 18:11:27 2019 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 00:11:27 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> > On 11 Jan 2019, at 23:59, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 4:39 PM Pete Turnbull via cctalk > wrote: >>> Mine are all BA23. Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX? >> >> No, it was introduced for the microPDP-11 series, and only later used >> for MicroVAX and MicroVAX-II. There are many microPDP-11/83 machines in >> BA123 cabinets, it was a very popular option because of the space for >> storage devices and the extra backplane slots. > > Hmm... I did not know they put the 11/83 in a BA123. It makes sense > since, as you say, there's room for storage devices and plenty of > slots. It?s going back severalteen years now but I?m pretty sure I built a Micro 73 into a BA123, it?s a CD22 backplane after all. I still have all the cards AND the BA123 but I?m supposed to be turning it back into the MVII it was originally, back in 1986 when it was called FRUIT. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 18:55:31 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:55:31 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 7:11 PM Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > It?s going back severalteen years now but I?m pretty sure I built a Micro 73 into a BA123, it?s a CD22 backplane after all. I still have all the cards AND the BA123 but I?m supposed to be turning it back into the MVII it was originally, back in 1986 when it was called FRUIT. It will definitely work, but I just wasn't sure about what types of CPUs _DEC_ stuffed into a BA123 and sold out the front door. -ethan From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Jan 11 19:24:20 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 17:24:20 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> > On Jan 11, 2019, at 4:55 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 7:11 PM Adrian Graham via cctalk > wrote: >> It?s going back severalteen years now but I?m pretty sure I built a Micro 73 into a BA123, it?s a CD22 backplane after all. I still have all the cards AND the BA123 but I?m supposed to be turning it back into the MVII it was originally, back in 1986 when it was called FRUIT. > > It will definitely work, but I just wasn't sure about what types of > CPUs _DEC_ stuffed into a BA123 and sold out the front door. > > -ethan My /73 was originally a MicroVAX II at Tektronix. After I got it, I turned it into a PDP-11 after getting a VAXstation 3100. I?m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in either a BA23 or a BA123. I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for my /23+. Zane From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Jan 11 19:56:24 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 18:56:24 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 6:24 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > > On Jan 11, 2019, at 4:55 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 7:11 PM Adrian Graham via cctalk > > wrote: > >> It?s going back severalteen years now but I?m pretty sure I built a > Micro 73 into a BA123, it?s a CD22 backplane after all. I still have all > the cards AND the BA123 but I?m supposed to be turning it back into the > MVII it was originally, back in 1986 when it was called FRUIT. > > > > It will definitely work, but I just wasn't sure about what types of > > CPUs _DEC_ stuffed into a BA123 and sold out the front door. > > > > -ethan > > My /73 was originally a MicroVAX II at Tektronix. After I got it, I > turned it into a PDP-11 after getting a VAXstation 3100. > > I?m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in either a > BA23 or a BA123. I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for my /23+. > Not sure about the /53, but I've seen /73s and /83s in BA23 for sure, and a /83s in BA123. Our VAXstation II was in a BA23 we converted to rack mount, and I've seen lots of MicroVAX IIs in BA123 cases. Warner From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Fri Jan 11 21:12:45 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 22:12:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Bellmac 8 Tutor on ebay Message-ID: <1426224858.1266192.1547262765029@email.ionos.com> I stumbled on this on ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bell-Laboratories-MAC-8-Processor-Tutor-1977-vintage-/202558325147 Thought someone here might be interested. I have no affiliation. Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jan 11 21:48:12 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 03:48:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Bellmac 8 Tutor on ebay References: <716167205.17373696.1547264892362.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <716167205.17373696.1547264892362@mail.yahoo.com> VERY? SCARE ACTUALLY. AND? GREAT IT? HAS A MANUAL AND? LIGHTS? UP In a message dated 1/11/2019 8:12:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: I stumbled on this on ebay:https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bell-Laboratories-MAC-8-Processor-Tutor-1977-vintage-/202558325147Thought someone here might be interested.? I have no affiliation.Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jan 11 21:57:19 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 03:57:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Bellmac 8 Tutor on ebay References: <1337924990.17384070.1547265439111.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1337924990.17384070.1547265439111@mail.yahoo.com> (OK I TRY THIS AGAIN!) THIS BELL MAC? ?YOU? SHOW? IS VERY? SCARCE ACTUALLY! IT IS REALLY GREAT?THAT??IT? HAS A MANUAL AND? LIGHTS? UP! In a message dated 1/11/2019 8:48:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: VERY? SCARE ACTUALLY. AND? GREAT IT? HAS A MANUAL AND? LIGHTS? UP In a message dated 1/11/2019 8:12:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:I stumbled on this on ebay:https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bell-Laboratories-MAC-8-Processor-Tutor-1977-vintage-/202558325147Thought someone here might be interested.? I have no affiliation.Will"He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Fri Jan 11 22:04:12 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 23:04:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Bellmac 8 Tutor on ebay In-Reply-To: <1337924990.17384070.1547265439111@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1337924990.17384070.1547265439111.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1337924990.17384070.1547265439111@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1045069621.489194.1547265852951@email.ionos.com> > On January 11, 2019 at 10:57 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > > (OK I TRY THIS AGAIN!) > > THIS BELL MAC? ?YOU? SHOW? IS VERY? SCARCE ACTUALLY! > IT IS REALLY GREAT?THAT??IT? HAS A MANUAL AND? LIGHTS? UP! > Yeah. It took all the discipline I had not to bid on it. I hope someone on the list gets it. Will > > In a message dated 1/11/2019 8:48:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > VERY? SCARE ACTUALLY. AND? GREAT IT? HAS A MANUAL AND? LIGHTS? UP > In a message dated 1/11/2019 8:12:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:I stumbled on this on ebay:https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bell-Laboratories-MAC-8-Processor-Tutor-1977-vintage-/202558325147Thought someone here might be interested.? I have no affiliation.Will"He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels > "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From useddec at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 23:24:42 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 23:24:42 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bill, I have a bunch of both DEC and compatible memories, and extra CPUs. If you need anything, contact me off list. Thanks, Paul On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 12:49 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Well, I have decided to stop playing with my hardware for a while and > get back to playing with software. :-) > > In order to do this I am building three (maybe four) > PDP-11's. I have an 11/93, an 11/73 and an 11/23+ > (and maybe another 11/23 or 11/73). BUt, I have run > into a small problem. Memory. (both the systems and > me!) > > My 11/93 has 2 meg internal and I would like to bring > it up to 4 meg. The others I would like to see with > 4 meg if possible. (except the last one which I may > deliberately keep at 128KW.) > > I have a number of different memory modules. Mostly > DEC but a couple third party. Here's the problem. > None of them are reflected in any of the documentation > I have been able to find so I can't configure them away > from their defaults! > > Here's a list of numbers: > > M7551-AC - All the docs I can find seem to refer to > AA or AB and jumpers and switches are not > in the same locations. > > M8067-LB > M8067-LF > M8067-LJ - Same problem. I can find no documentation > for any -L boards and these don't even resemble > the pictures I find. > > And then I have two non-DEC module that are unlikely to > have any documentation still floating around for. > > Camintonn CMV-1000 -- As funny as it sounds, this one > looks more like a DEC MSV11-QA > then the DEC ones do, but not exactly. > > And one who's maker is only identified by a logo that > looks like 2 interlaced stylized S's. Model Number > is: 980110014-201 Rev E. > > Anybody got any pointers to help me configure some of this stuff? > > bill > From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Jan 11 17:13:48 2019 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 18:13:48 -0500 Subject: warped RK05 pack -- lost cause? In-Reply-To: <51907CD9-3BE0-49A7-A01B-BAB85FB95AAF@fritzm.org> References: <51907CD9-3BE0-49A7-A01B-BAB85FB95AAF@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <20190111231348.GA9820@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 11:13:00AM -0800, Fritz Mueller wrote: > > > On Jan 10, 2019, at 12:47 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > > > I don't think it's the platter but perhaps a dirty hub ring or centering cone. Try cleaning the ring and the cone of your disk pack. > > Ah, thanks ? I?ll take a look! > I've found a few packs won't fit properly on the centering cone on my drive. Check to see if it sits flat on the magnet or one edge is up slightly. I wasn't able to see any obvious issues causing it. I haven't resolved the issue so can't give you a solution. If you do find the cause let us know. From kfergason at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 17:48:51 2019 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 17:48:51 -0600 Subject: Who is in Houston? In-Reply-To: References: <07a801d4a9d4$58a4c020$09ee4060$@com> Message-ID: i am in NW Houston. kelly Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 11, 2019, at 12:36 PM, Ryan Eisworth via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jan 11, 2019, at 11:37 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: >> >> 2 storage sheds were bought at auction. Includes mainframes, terminals, dot >> matrix printers, monitors, PS/2 and PS/2 machines, etc. > > I'm very close to Houston (Brenham) and I make trips there several times a week. > > -- > Ryan Eisworth From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sat Jan 12 03:58:12 2019 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 10:58:12 +0100 Subject: IBM in TX In-Reply-To: References: <07ea01d4a9d6$031154f0$0933fed0$@com> <20190111181017.GB31262@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20190112095812.GM14046@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 10:20:43AM -0800, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > I think I see an H960 with a couple DEC half panels stuck on it peeking out of the very back there... Those are definitely H960. the front rack has a big tape drive. a quick google reveals that Atex made newspaper publishing tools with PDP-11 https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/minicomputers/11/366/1944 There is potential for goodies in there. Cindy, where you askin "who bought this?" or "who wants to buy this?" /P From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 12 08:20:06 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 14:20:06 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: Well, the problem is definitely bus grant as with just two memory cards in the machine I put the disk controller in and it does not show up in the Map. The only problem with this is the question Why? I have examined the memory cards. The C-D (actually, C) does have the bus grant lines connected. I even looked under a magnifier to be sure the trace hadn't been cut and it is intact. So, what else cold cause this? (Another question, however, some cards have the ability to open this. Why would you ever do that as it would break pretty much any card that followed?) bill From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 12 11:24:43 2019 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:24:43 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 11/01/2019 23:58, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 3:51 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: >> Mine are all BA23. Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX? > > As sold, most likely. I don't think DEC ever configured any MicroPDP > systems in a BA123 but no reason it doesn't work. Absolutely not so - there were very many microPDP-11/83 systems sold in BA123 cabinets, in fact probably more in BA123 than in BA23. The MicroPDP-11 System Maintenance Manual features the BA123 heavily throughout, as do other microPDP-11 manuals. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 12 11:29:21 2019 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:29:21 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <00e6f777-54bc-ceb0-d441-44d3e973154e@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I?m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in either a BA23 or a BA123. I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for my /23+. I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23 boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down 11/53 were as well. But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen were in BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals - I've got one. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 12 11:31:57 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:31:57 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/19 9:20 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > Well, the problem is definitely bus grant as with just two memory > cards in the machine I put the disk controller in and it does not > show up in the Map. The only problem with this is the question > Why? I have examined the memory cards. The C-D (actually, C) > does have the bus grant lines connected. I even looked under a > magnifier to be sure the trace hadn't been cut and it is intact. > So, what else cold cause this? > > (Another question, however, some cards have the ability to open > this. Why would you ever do that as it would break pretty much > any card that followed?) Problem fixed. Note, fixed, not solved. I dug out another MicroPDP BA23 box. Stuck the CPU in slot 1. Started adding the memory cards one at a time and turning the machine on waiting for the self-test and then doing a MAP. Worked perfectly. The self test got slower as each memory card was added and the map showed the block of memory and the assigned CSR. So, what could go bad on a backplane to cause this problem? Or, could it be a power supply that is no longer delivering the rated power? In any event, I, at least now, have two functional systems. an 11/93 with 2 meg of memory (which might be expandable with PMI but definitely not with QBUS memory.) And an 11/73 with 4 meg of QBUS memory which apparently could be an 11/83 if I had 4 meg of PMI memory. Anybody got any PMI memory they would be willing to let go? :-) bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 12 11:36:55 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:36:55 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/12/19 12:24 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 11/01/2019 23:58, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 3:51 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >> wrote: >>> Mine are all BA23.? Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX? >> >> As sold, most likely.? I don't think DEC ever configured any MicroPDP >> systems in a BA123 but no reason it doesn't work. > > Absolutely not so - there were very many microPDP-11/83 systems sold in > BA123 cabinets, in fact probably more in BA123 than in BA23.? The > MicroPDP-11 System Maintenance Manual features the BA123 heavily > throughout, as do other microPDP-11 manuals. > None of my MicroPDP-11 manuals show anything but the BA23. Most show the install as being in a deskside pedestal. But even the one that shows rack mount installation is only BA23. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 12 11:39:17 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:39:17 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: <00e6f777-54bc-ceb0-d441-44d3e973154e@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> <00e6f777-54bc-ceb0-d441-44d3e973154e@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/19 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> I?m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in >> either a BA23 or a BA123.? I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for >> my /23+. > > I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23 > boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down 11/53 > were as well.? But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen were in > BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals - I've got one. > One confusing part of this. Everything I have read today seems to say that the only difference between the 11/73 and the 11/83 in a MicroPDP-11 was the memory used. QBUS = 11/73 PMI = 11/83 Is this correct or not? bill From jsw at ieee.org Sat Jan 12 11:44:25 2019 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 11:44:25 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <607d9fff-8249-c3e6-8071-99ec899f3a83@ieee.org> On 1/12/19 11:31 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 1/12/19 9:20 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> Well, the problem is definitely bus grant as with just two memory >> cards in the machine I put the disk controller in and it does not >> show up in the Map. The only problem with this is the question >> Why? I have examined the memory cards. The C-D (actually, C) >> does have the bus grant lines connected. I even looked under a >> magnifier to be sure the trace hadn't been cut and it is intact. >> So, what else cold cause this? >> >> (Another question, however, some cards have the ability to open >> this. Why would you ever do that as it would break pretty much >> any card that followed?) > Problem fixed. Note, fixed, not solved. > > I dug out another MicroPDP BA23 box. Stuck the CPU in slot 1. > Started adding the memory cards one at a time and turning the > machine on waiting for the self-test and then doing a MAP. > Worked perfectly. The self test got slower as each memory > card was added and the map showed the block of memory and the > assigned CSR. Congrats on getting this part of the problem resolved. > So, what could go bad on a backplane to cause this problem? > Or, could it be a power supply that is no longer delivering > the rated power? If you haven't already, check the backplane slots for debris or corrosion on the contacts. Next with a voltmeter check the +5V and +12V first to see if the actual voltages are within spec. If you have an oscilloscope, checking for excess voltage ripple. If the power supplies have are using the original capacitors they might not be providing clean power under significant load. ? Jerry From jsw at ieee.org Sat Jan 12 12:13:52 2019 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 12:13:52 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> <00e6f777-54bc-ceb0-d441-44d3e973154e@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/19 11:39 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 1/12/19 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I?m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in >>> either a BA23 or a BA123.? I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for >>> my /23+. >> I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23 >> boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down 11/53 >> were as well.? But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen were in >> BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals - I've got one. >> > One confusing part of this. Everything I have read today > seems to say that the only difference between the 11/73 > and the 11/83 in a MicroPDP-11 was the memory used. > QBUS = 11/73 > PMI = 11/83 > I use this guide in general - http://web.frainresearch.org:8080/projects/pdp-11/dcj11.php to understand the key differences in DEC DCJ11 implementations. You can see how the clock speed, caching and memory type drove differences in performance and marketing labels. The 11/83 (M8190-AD or AE) with Non-PMI memory is just a slow 11/83 in my view. I know RT11 did report it as an 11/73.?? It could be that from a software perspective, RT11 might not be possible to determine the actual module in use. Does the 2MB 11/93 not work with and extra 2Mb of QBUS Non-PMI memory?? I would have thought the upper 2MB would still be addressable, if for nothing else than for compatibility memory mapped display controllers and such. ?? Jerry From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 12 12:23:32 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 18:23:32 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> <00e6f777-54bc-ceb0-d441-44d3e973154e@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/19 1:13 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > On 1/12/19 11:39 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/12/19 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >>> On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> I?m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in >>>> either a BA23 or a BA123.? I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for >>>> my /23+. >>> I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23 >>> boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down 11/53 >>> were as well.? But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen were in >>> BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals - I've got one. >>> >> One confusing part of this. Everything I have read today >> seems to say that the only difference between the 11/73 >> and the 11/83 in a MicroPDP-11 was the memory used. >> QBUS = 11/73 >> PMI = 11/83 >> > I use this guide in general - > http://web.frainresearch.org:8080/projects/pdp-11/dcj11.php to > understand the key differences in DEC DCJ11 implementations. You can see > how the clock speed, caching and memory type drove differences in > performance and marketing labels. > > The 11/83 (M8190-AD or AE) with Non-PMI memory is just a slow 11/83 in > my view. I know RT11 did report it as an 11/73.?? It could be that from > a software perspective, RT11 might not be possible to determine the > actual module in use. I always thought it was an 11/73. It wasn't until the last few days that I saw the difference mentioned. It works fine as an 11/73 and having PMI memory and making it an 11/83 would just be for fun anyway. I have run Ultrix-11 on 11/73's with no real problems. > > Does the 2MB 11/93 not work with and extra 2Mb of QBUS Non-PMI memory? > I would have thought the upper 2MB would still be addressable, if for > nothing else than for compatibility memory mapped display controllers > and such. I had tried it and, no, it didn't work. I then had people tell me it wouldn't. I have also been told the only way to upgrade is to add the missing memory onto the CPU board. I find that hard to believe, but I suppose it is possible. I am not sure I could do that upgrade as some of the chips are surface mount. Not that it matters as a search could not turn up any supply for those particular memory chips. But, if I came up with a 2 meg or pair of 1 meg PMI boards I would definitely try it. :-) Just like the 11/73|11/83 deal. If a 4 meg PMI card fell in my lap I would definitely try it to see if there was a difference. Matter of fact, I would likely find some benchmarks I could run under Ultrix-11 and see what the actual difference was. But, it's all academic cause I really don't see any PMI memory falling from the sky and I haven't seen any pigs fly by lately. :-) bill From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 12 12:31:07 2019 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 18:31:07 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> <00e6f777-54bc-ceb0-d441-44d3e973154e@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <888219d3-5981-e887-bbeb-366ba0bac6d1@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/01/2019 17:39, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > One confusing part of this. Everything I have read today > seems to say that the only difference between the 11/73 > and the 11/83 in a MicroPDP-11 was the memory used. > QBUS = 11/73 > PMI = 11/83 > > Is this correct or not? No, not really, but sort of. Originally, the J11 chip was available in 15MHz and 18MHz versions. The 15MHz chips were used for 11/73 systems and the 18MHz ones for 11/83 systesm. To emphasise the difference, they had slightly different boot ROMs, and the 11/73 systems were shipped with QBus memory while the 11/83 systems were shipped with PMI memory, which is faster. So a factory-fresh 11/73 was always 15MHZ + QBus memory, whereas a factory-fresh 11/83 was always 18MHz with PMI memory, and significantly faster. In fact the PDP-11 and Hardware Help lists on DECUServe were full of people discussing the difference as many people didn't believe that you could use PMI memory with the processor from an 11/73 (you can), while others insisted that if you changed the memory an 11/73 became exactly an 11/83. In fact the XXDP diagnostics and RT-11 differentiate 11/73 from 11/83 purely on the basis of PMI memory detection. The J11 chip used on those systems was supposed to run at 20MHz or so from day one, but it didn't quite make it. Some, especially early on, would only run fully reliably at 15MHz, hence the above. I've got a later one in an 11/83 running at 20MHz, though. It doesn't gain an awful lot, but I changed the crystal, just because I could. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From allisonportable at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 13:00:47 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 14:00:47 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 01/12/2019 12:36 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 1/12/19 12:24 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/01/2019 23:58, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >>> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 3:51 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>> Mine are all BA23.? Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX? >>> As sold, most likely.? I don't think DEC ever configured any MicroPDP >>> systems in a BA123 but no reason it doesn't work. >> Absolutely not so - there were very many microPDP-11/83 systems sold in >> BA123 cabinets, in fact probably more in BA123 than in BA23.? The >> MicroPDP-11 System Maintenance Manual features the BA123 heavily >> throughout, as do other microPDP-11 manuals. >> > None of my MicroPDP-11 manuals show anything but the BA23. Most > show the install as being in a deskside pedestal. But even the > one that shows rack mount installation is only BA23. > > bill And my older manuals don't show anything other than BA11, later manuals are useful for that reason. Allison From allisonportable at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 13:25:56 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 14:25:56 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: <00e6f777-54bc-ceb0-d441-44d3e973154e@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> <00e6f777-54bc-ceb0-d441-44d3e973154e@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <559d7297-cead-b595-6884-d3837e891f4a@gmail.com> On 01/12/2019 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> I?m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in >> either a BA23 or a BA123.? I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for >> my /23+. > > I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23 > boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down > 11/53 were as well.? But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen > were in BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals - > I've got one. > Pete, Your right the 11/23+ showed up on a lot of boxes but not the BA123 though it would fit.? The? BA23 as the micropdp11 or 11/53..? names and models were a large jumble.? The J11 based CPU were showing up int BA123 as the later ones had PMI and a natural for the 123 as anyone using J11 likely wanted storage, memory and space for it.?? Not not all of the dual width 11/73s were slow chips only that the were run at 15mhz.? No advantage for faster as Qbus transactions are slower for memory so the PMI versions were faster by default. My BA23 (micropdp11was upgraded to microVAXII by me before DEC left me and the machine next to it under the desk was VIDSYS: a MicrovaxII GPX They both came home with me on last day.?? The BA23 was put back to the micropdp11 config and VIDSYS: remains though with larger disks.? I also have a rack based system (11/73 CPU) and multiple BA11 series mostly 11/23(various flavors) based but have the 11/2 board and LSI-11.?? Even An H11 backplane with LSI-11 and Heath ram and IO. While there were many sold systems and a larger number of supported systems Qbus PDP-11 was more mix and match than most any and the early Qbus microVAX series did that for a while.? Allison From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jan 12 14:05:28 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 20:05:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: wanted TO BUy any and all XSCRIBE KEY BOARD AND COMPUTER closed caption related & Steno typer key board related ... docs... parts.. units building up an working analog CC demo chain for display in our Deaf and Hard of Hearing assisting tech area. References: <144747633.17605327.1547323528232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <144747633.17605327.1547323528232@mail.yahoo.com> wanted any and all XSCRIBE closed caption related and steno typer key board? related ... docs... parts.. units building up an? working analog CC? demo chain for display in our Deaf and Hard of Hearing assisting tech area.? will consider othe brand gear to if even just for static display too.... Interested in ad materials photos, war stories. etc etc? ? thanks. Ed Sharpe From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 12 15:14:46 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 21:14:46 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: <559d7297-cead-b595-6884-d3837e891f4a@gmail.com> References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> <00e6f777-54bc-ceb0-d441-44d3e973154e@dunnington.plus.com> <559d7297-cead-b595-6884-d3837e891f4a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/19 2:25 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 01/12/2019 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I?m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in >>> either a BA23 or a BA123.? I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for >>> my /23+. >> >> I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23 >> boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down >> 11/53 were as well.? But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen >> were in BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals - >> I've got one. >> > Pete, > > Your right the 11/23+ showed up on a lot of boxes but not the BA123 > though it would fit. My 11/23+ is in a box labeled PDP-11/23PLUS on the front with three toggle switches. :-) It has a 9276-A backplane labeled OPTION 11/23B. It is a 9 slot, Q22 A-B-C-D . That's the home for my next system which will (hopefully) have 2 meg of memory, a DEQNA and an Andromeda Card for a small hard disk and 8" floppy. I also plan on another small 11/23 with 128KW of memory and an 18 bit backplane so I can use the RX02 emulator. And, probably an Andromeda in there, too To bring my part of this discussion to an end, I now have a BA23 MicroPDP box with an 11/73 CPU, 4 meg of memory, DHV11 for eight serial lines (probably only use one to talk to a TU58 emulator but the DHV11 was just sitting there looking lonely) a DEQNA and a CMD SCSI Controller set for 6 disks and one tape. Only thing it lacks at this point is software. On to my next project. Thanks for all the help. I had forgotten just how much fun real computers were compared to PC's and MAC's. bill From allisonportable at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 15:30:30 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 16:30:30 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> <00e6f777-54bc-ceb0-d441-44d3e973154e@dunnington.plus.com> <559d7297-cead-b595-6884-d3837e891f4a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/12/2019 04:14 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 1/12/19 2:25 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: >> On 01/12/2019 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >>> On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> I?m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in >>>> either a BA23 or a BA123.? I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for >>>> my /23+. >>> I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23 >>> boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down >>> 11/53 were as well.? But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen >>> were in BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals - >>> I've got one. >>> >> Pete, >> >> Your right the 11/23+ showed up on a lot of boxes but not the BA123 >> though it would fit. > My 11/23+ is in a box labeled PDP-11/23PLUS on the front with > three toggle switches. :-) It has a 9276-A backplane labeled > OPTION 11/23B. It is a 9 slot, Q22 A-B-C-D . That's the home > for my next system which will (hopefully) have 2 meg of memory, > a DEQNA and an Andromeda Card for a small hard disk and 8" floppy. BA11 box with one of the usual two common backplanes or standard BA23. Problem with DEQNA is what OS?? RT11 does nothing with it.? RSX-11 I don't have a recent enough version so its often unused/ > I also plan on another small 11/23 with 128KW of memory and an > 18 bit backplane so I can use the RX02 emulator. And, probably > an Andromeda in there, too > > > To bring my part of this discussion to an end, I now have a BA23 > MicroPDP box with an 11/73 CPU, 4 meg of memory, DHV11 for eight > serial lines (probably only use one to talk to a TU58 emulator > but the DHV11 was just sitting there looking lonely) a DEQNA > and a CMD SCSI Controller set for 6 disks and one tape. Only > thing it lacks at this point is software. The TU58 like a responsive IO a DLV11J is a better choice for console and DD and works best if first card after the memory (early in the interrupt grant chain). The simulators are faster than tu58 so it makes for fewer retries. I use DHV11 for terminal and modem lines (slower stuff). > On to my next project. > > Thanks for all the help. I had forgotten just how much fun > real computers were compared to PC's and MAC's. Yes they are.? Their performance without all the gui gunk is often a suprize to many that have not worked with them. Allison > bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 12 16:03:25 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 22:03:25 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> <00e6f777-54bc-ceb0-d441-44d3e973154e@dunnington.plus.com> <559d7297-cead-b595-6884-d3837e891f4a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/19 4:30 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 01/12/2019 04:14 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/12/19 2:25 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: >>> On 01/12/2019 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>>> I?m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in >>>>> either a BA23 or a BA123.? I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for >>>>> my /23+. >>>> I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23 >>>> boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down >>>> 11/53 were as well.? But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen >>>> were in BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals - >>>> I've got one. >>>> >>> Pete, >>> >>> Your right the 11/23+ showed up on a lot of boxes but not the BA123 >>> though it would fit. >> My 11/23+ is in a box labeled PDP-11/23PLUS on the front with >> three toggle switches. :-) It has a 9276-A backplane labeled >> OPTION 11/23B. It is a 9 slot, Q22 A-B-C-D . That's the home >> for my next system which will (hopefully) have 2 meg of memory, >> a DEQNA and an Andromeda Card for a small hard disk and 8" floppy. > BA11 box with one of the usual two common backplanes or standard BA23. > > Problem with DEQNA is what OS?? RT11 does nothing with it.? RSX-11 > I don't have a recent enough version so its often unused/ My only problem is I have 3 DEQNA and 1 DELQA. I thought I read somewhere recently that the DEQNA was the better of the two. As for software, what about the Kent TCPIP package? Will that not work with the DEQNA? I thought the two Ethernet controllers for QBUS were functionally the same. And, while we are at it, if I type BOOT XH does it look for a MOP Server? > >> I also plan on another small 11/23 with 128KW of memory and an >> 18 bit backplane so I can use the RX02 emulator. And, probably >> an Andromeda in there, too >> >> >> To bring my part of this discussion to an end, I now have a BA23 >> MicroPDP box with an 11/73 CPU, 4 meg of memory, DHV11 for eight >> serial lines (probably only use one to talk to a TU58 emulator >> but the DHV11 was just sitting there looking lonely) a DEQNA >> and a CMD SCSI Controller set for 6 disks and one tape. Only >> thing it lacks at this point is software. > The TU58 like a responsive IO a DLV11J is a better choice for console and DD > and works best if first card after the memory (early in the interrupt > grant chain). My 11/73 only has a console, thus the need for the DHV11 but really only one port. (Although I may try putting multiple serial ports in all the boxes and doing some "networking" over them. :-) > The simulators are faster than tu58 so it makes for fewer retries. > I use DHV11 for terminal and modem lines (slower stuff). >> On to my next project. >> >> Thanks for all the help. I had forgotten just how much fun >> real computers were compared to PC's and MAC's. > Yes they are.? Their performance without all the gui gunk is often a > suprize > to many that have not worked with them. More surprising than most would accept. It's not a PDP-11 but I have a 6809 that was sold as a toy for running games that I have had 4 remote login sessions and a web server running on. And that was with networked disks and all remote access over a 115K serial line on a bitbanger port!! I would love to see a version of that OS on the PDP-11. bill From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jan 12 16:22:03 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 22:22:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP HP HP !! PING THE CURATOR AT HPMUSEUM IN OZ ED SHARPE TRYING TO REACH U MAKESURE AOL GOES THRU References: <1011078747.17612968.1547331723101.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1011078747.17612968.1547331723101@mail.yahoo.com> HP CURATOR - -HOWDY? HAVE? ?SOME? MANUALS? ?WE ARE SCANNING? ?PRE-7900 DISC? SYSTEM!? ? U NEED? AS? ?U? SAY? DO NOT? HAVE? YOUR MOST HELPFUL 150 INFO CAME? TROUGH? ? FROM A? PUBLIC? REQUEST? HERE(THANK? YOU THANK? YOU!!!!!)? BUT SUSPECTED? THE? ?AOL BOX? NOT? GOOD? GOING TO? YOU? DIRECT ..? HELP?? ? ? ED SHARPE From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 16:25:12 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 16:25:12 -0600 Subject: HP HP HP !! PING THE CURATOR AT HPMUSEUM IN OZ ED SHARPE TRYING TO REACH U MAKESURE AOL GOES THRU In-Reply-To: <1011078747.17612968.1547331723101@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1011078747.17612968.1547331723101.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1011078747.17612968.1547331723101@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: but u didnt say hello world From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jan 12 16:40:24 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 22:40:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP OK! hello world References: <181396726.17615729.1547332824510.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <181396726.17615729.1547332824510@mail.yahoo.com> hello world! (? LARGE? PRIOR? BROADCAST? BUT? ONLY? WAY TO GET IT? TO? OZ ) In a message dated 1/12/2019 3:25:26 PM US Mountain Standard Time, tdk.knight at gmail.com writes: but u didnt say hello world From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 17:26:25 2019 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 23:26:25 +0000 Subject: HP HP HP !! PING THE CURATOR AT HPMUSEUM IN OZ ED SHARPE TRYING TO REACH U MAKESURE AOL GOES THRU In-Reply-To: <1011078747.17612968.1547331723101@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1011078747.17612968.1547331723101.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1011078747.17612968.1547331723101@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6BBE2F39-F4FB-4B84-85CB-2D5AAC9ADA6A@gmail.com> Hi Ed... I?m actually in London right now but going back to Melbourne on Monday morning. Internet connection very bad where I am staying so haven?t had a chance to check on what I have but if it?s on the list and you have it scanned please send and I?ll put it up on the site. Thanks (and I can hear you without shouting :-)) David Collins +61 424 785 131 > On 12 Jan 2019, at 10:22 pm, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > HP CURATOR - -HOWDY HAVE SOME MANUALS WE ARE SCANNING PRE-7900 DISC SYSTEM! U NEED AS U SAY DO NOT HAVE > > YOUR MOST HELPFUL 150 INFO CAME TROUGH FROM A PUBLIC REQUEST HERE(THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!) BUT SUSPECTED THE AOL BOX NOT GOOD GOING TO YOU DIRECT .. HELP? ED SHARPE From allisonportable at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 17:45:12 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 18:45:12 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> <00e6f777-54bc-ceb0-d441-44d3e973154e@dunnington.plus.com> <559d7297-cead-b595-6884-d3837e891f4a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c599359-7282-c28d-dde1-83d60d1e0d23@gmail.com> On 01/12/2019 05:03 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 1/12/19 4:30 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: >> On 01/12/2019 04:14 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> On 1/12/19 2:25 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 01/12/2019 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >>>>> On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I?m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in >>>>>> either a BA23 or a BA123.? I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for >>>>>> my /23+. >>>>> I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23 >>>>> boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down >>>>> 11/53 were as well.? But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen >>>>> were in BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals - >>>>> I've got one. >>>>> >>>> Pete, >>>> >>>> Your right the 11/23+ showed up on a lot of boxes but not the BA123 >>>> though it would fit. >>> My 11/23+ is in a box labeled PDP-11/23PLUS on the front with >>> three toggle switches. :-) It has a 9276-A backplane labeled >>> OPTION 11/23B. It is a 9 slot, Q22 A-B-C-D . That's the home >>> for my next system which will (hopefully) have 2 meg of memory, >>> a DEQNA and an Andromeda Card for a small hard disk and 8" floppy. >> BA11 box with one of the usual two common backplanes or standard BA23. >> >> Problem with DEQNA is what OS?? RT11 does nothing with it.? RSX-11 >> I don't have a recent enough version so its often unused/ > My only problem is I have 3 DEQNA and 1 DELQA. I thought I read > somewhere recently that the DEQNA was the better of the two. DELQA replace the DEQNA as often they didn't work, high failure rate in service. There was also a DAta corruption bug that also turned up so DELQA was the replacement. > As for software, what about the Kent TCPIP package? Will that > not work with the DEQNA? I thought the two Ethernet controllers > for QBUS were functionally the same. Roughly as the DEQNA carried a mop boot loader but it didn't use it for RT-11.? RT does nto that I know of through 5.4 support the Ni device for any internal use, an application can but you get to write code and create a Decnet endpoint. I know of now IP stacks for PDP11, they may exist but not in my vocabulary. I can't see why not though but then you likely need UNIX and what version? I know V6 doesn't and I have that on RL02. > And, while we are at it, if I type BOOT XH does it look for a > MOP Server? For RSX it may work as RSX later versions supported networking. >>> I also plan on another small 11/23 with 128KW of memory and an >>> 18 bit backplane so I can use the RX02 emulator. And, probably >>> an Andromeda in there, too >>> >>> >>> To bring my part of this discussion to an end, I now have a BA23 >>> MicroPDP box with an 11/73 CPU, 4 meg of memory, DHV11 for eight >>> serial lines (probably only use one to talk to a TU58 emulator >>> but the DHV11 was just sitting there looking lonely) a DEQNA >>> and a CMD SCSI Controller set for 6 disks and one tape. Only >>> thing it lacks at this point is software. >> The TU58 like a responsive IO a DLV11J is a better choice for console and DD >> and works best if first card after the memory (early in the interrupt >> grant chain). > My 11/73 only has a console, thus the need for the DHV11 but really > only one port. (Although I may try putting multiple serial ports in > all the boxes and doing some "networking" over them. :-) Right the 11/23 and later quad 11/73 have console the dual width without pulling out the rack to look did not. >> The simulators are faster than tu58 so it makes for fewer retries. >> I use DHV11 for terminal and modem lines (slower stuff). >>> On to my next project. >>> >>> Thanks for all the help. I had forgotten just how much fun >>> real computers were compared to PC's and MAC's. >> Yes they are.? Their performance without all the gui gunk is often a >> suprize to many that have not worked with them. I've had people running stuff on a 486/dx33 with 8mb (win3.11 as DOS 5.22) and RT11 on PDP11/23 with 512kbyte? and totally blew their minds.? The 11 ran a lot of stuff that the PC could and was faster.? Then they got to see it as a multiuser system with RSTS, push them over with a feather.?? The multitasking and multiuser aspect shows it off.? Side effect of time and maturity of OS and Instruction set with good hardware. The Storage systems were better and MMU made swapping and memory management cleaner so beat the tar off segmentation and early Intel 32bit (386/486 era) as it didn't do context switching at all well (slow). Once graphics found home then it had to a VAX/VMS on a 3100/GPX and a color tube to get the same level wow. >> More surprising than most would accept. It's not a PDP-11 but >> I have a 6809 that was sold as a toy for running games that I have >> had 4 remote login sessions and a web server running on. And >> that was with networked disks and all remote access over a 115K >> serial line on a bitbanger port!! I would love to see a version >> of that OS on the PDP-11. >> The 6809 (hitachi 63B09) are about as close to PDP11 in general structure and instruction set and could boogy.?? The were a cusp 16 bitter (not really but close). The 8088/86 was not wonderful, and what came after had all the side baggage to not help.?? At that time I was voting for 68000 to win! Allison From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jan 12 17:51:04 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 23:51:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP HP HP !! PING THE CURATOR AT HPMUSEUM IN OZ ED SHARPE TRYING TO REACH U MAKESURE AOL GOES THRU References: <2082687189.17658711.1547337064848.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2082687189.17658711.1547337064848@mail.yahoo.com> THANKS? DAVID? WILL? USE? YOUR? DIRECT NAME? EMAIL BOX.SHOUTING?? NO...? ?THE FONT IS IN CLASSIC HP 2752A AND HP? 2754B ?TELEPRINTER?EMULATION.?(GRIN!) THANKS ED SHARPE ARCHIVIST?FOR SMECC In a message dated 1/12/2019 4:26:52 PM US Mountain Standard Time, davidkcollins2 at gmail.com writes: Hi Ed...? I?m actually in London right now but going back to Melbourne on Monday morning. Internet connection very bad where I am staying so haven?t had a chance to check on what I have but if it?s on the list and you have it scanned please send and I?ll put it up on the site. Thanks (and I can hear you without shouting :-)) David Collins +61 424 785 131 > On 12 Jan 2019, at 10:22 pm, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > HP CURATOR - -HOWDY? HAVE? SOME? MANUALS? WE ARE SCANNING? PRE-7900 DISC? SYSTEM!? ? U NEED? AS? U? SAY? DO NOT? HAVE > > YOUR MOST HELPFUL 150 INFO CAME? TROUGH? ? FROM A? PUBLIC? REQUEST? HERE(THANK? YOU THANK? YOU!!!!!)? BUT SUSPECTED? THE? AOL BOX? NOT? GOOD? GOING TO? YOU? DIRECT ..? HELP?? ? ? ED SHARPE From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 12 18:34:57 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 00:34:57 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Memory In-Reply-To: <7c599359-7282-c28d-dde1-83d60d1e0d23@gmail.com> References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> <00e6f777-54bc-ceb0-d441-44d3e973154e@dunnington.plus.com> <559d7297-cead-b595-6884-d3837e891f4a@gmail.com> <7c599359-7282-c28d-dde1-83d60d1e0d23@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/19 6:45 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 01/12/2019 05:03 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/12/19 4:30 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: >>> On 01/12/2019 04:14 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 1/12/19 2:25 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: >>>>> On 01/12/2019 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I?m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in >>>>>>> either a BA23 or a BA123.? I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for >>>>>>> my /23+. >>>>>> I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23 >>>>>> boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down >>>>>> 11/53 were as well.? But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen >>>>>> were in BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals - >>>>>> I've got one. >>>>>> >>>>> Pete, >>>>> >>>>> Your right the 11/23+ showed up on a lot of boxes but not the BA123 >>>>> though it would fit. >>>> My 11/23+ is in a box labeled PDP-11/23PLUS on the front with >>>> three toggle switches. :-) It has a 9276-A backplane labeled >>>> OPTION 11/23B. It is a 9 slot, Q22 A-B-C-D . That's the home >>>> for my next system which will (hopefully) have 2 meg of memory, >>>> a DEQNA and an Andromeda Card for a small hard disk and 8" floppy. >>> BA11 box with one of the usual two common backplanes or standard BA23. >>> >>> Problem with DEQNA is what OS?? RT11 does nothing with it.? RSX-11 >>> I don't have a recent enough version so its often unused/ >> My only problem is I have 3 DEQNA and 1 DELQA. I thought I read >> somewhere recently that the DEQNA was the better of the two. > DELQA replace the DEQNA as often they didn't work, high failure rate in > service. > There was also a DAta corruption bug that also turned up so DELQA was the > replacement. And then there was the old how to crash a PDP-11 (and I think early VAX as well) by flooding a network. Luckily all of mine will be on switches and accidental flooding won't happen. Of course that doesn't mean I won;t try it just for fun. > >> As for software, what about the Kent TCPIP package? Will that >> not work with the DEQNA? I thought the two Ethernet controllers >> for QBUS were functionally the same. > Roughly as the DEQNA carried a mop boot loader but it didn't use it for > RT-11.? RT does nto that I know of through 5.4 support the Ni device > for any internal use, an application can but you get to write code and > create a Decnet endpoint. I don't think any common PDP-11 OS could net boot, but that doesn't mean I can't do it myself. I was wondering how hard it would be to get Xinu to netboot rather than boot over a serial line. :-) > > I know of now IP stacks for PDP11, they may exist but not in my vocabulary. > I can't see why not though but then you likely need UNIX and what version? More than one as far as I know. Johnny Billquist did one for RSX. I thought Process Software had one before they settled on only VMS. TCPIP for TSX and RT-11 from kent.edu. (I have never used it but I have been told by people more knowledgeable than myslf that is works really well. I plan to find out now.) And, of course, Ultrix-11 and BSD2.11 both have full networking. > > I know V6 doesn't and I have that on RL02. >> And, while we are at it, if I type BOOT XH does it look for a >> MOP Server? > For RSX it may work as RSX later versions supported networking. I am not worried about what will be downloaded (yet), just what typing BOOT XH actually does. I guess I will noe for sure when I try it with a network monitor running. If it works as I hope, I have a lot of experience MOP Booting other devices. > >>>> I also plan on another small 11/23 with 128KW of memory and an >>>> 18 bit backplane so I can use the RX02 emulator. And, probably >>>> an Andromeda in there, too >>>> >>>> >>>> To bring my part of this discussion to an end, I now have a BA23 >>>> MicroPDP box with an 11/73 CPU, 4 meg of memory, DHV11 for eight >>>> serial lines (probably only use one to talk to a TU58 emulator >>>> but the DHV11 was just sitting there looking lonely) a DEQNA >>>> and a CMD SCSI Controller set for 6 disks and one tape. Only >>>> thing it lacks at this point is software. >>> The TU58 like a responsive IO a DLV11J is a better choice for console and DD >>> and works best if first card after the memory (early in the interrupt >>> grant chain). >> My 11/73 only has a console, thus the need for the DHV11 but really >> only one port. (Although I may try putting multiple serial ports in >> all the boxes and doing some "networking" over them. :-) > Right the 11/23 and later quad 11/73 have console the dual width without > pulling out > the rack to look did not. Not my 11/73. The 23's have two ports but the 73 only had one. > >>> The simulators are faster than tu58 so it makes for fewer retries. >>> I use DHV11 for terminal and modem lines (slower stuff). >>>> On to my next project. >>>> >>>> Thanks for all the help. I had forgotten just how much fun >>>> real computers were compared to PC's and MAC's. >>> Yes they are.? Their performance without all the gui gunk is often a >>> suprize to many that have not worked with them. > > I've had people running stuff on a 486/dx33 with 8mb (win3.11 as DOS 5.22) > and RT11 on PDP11/23 with 512kbyte? and totally blew their minds.? The 11 > ran a lot of stuff that the PC could and was faster.? Then they got to > see it as > a multiuser system with RSTS, push them over with a feather.?? The > multitasking and multiuser aspect shows it off.? Side effect of time and > maturity of OS and Instruction set with good hardware. > > The Storage systems were better and MMU made swapping and memory > management cleaner so beat the tar off segmentation and early Intel 32bit > (386/486 era) as it didn't do context switching at all well (slow). > > Once graphics found home then it had to a VAX/VMS on a 3100/GPX > and a color tube to get the same level wow. > >>> More surprising than most would accept. It's not a PDP-11 but >>> I have a 6809 that was sold as a toy for running games that I have >>> had 4 remote login sessions and a web server running on. And >>> that was with networked disks and all remote access over a 115K >>> serial line on a bitbanger port!! I would love to see a version >>> of that OS on the PDP-11. >>> > The 6809 (hitachi 63B09) are about as close to PDP11 in general > structure and > instruction set and could boogy.?? The were a cusp 16 bitter (not really > but close). We;ll see. I may take a shot at doing a PDP-11 port of NitrOS9. :-) I would also like to do early MINIX. And, netbooting of almost anything with some form of disk server for diskless running. Amazing what fun you can have when your not doing it for money. > > The 8088/86 was not wonderful, and what came after had all the side baggage > to not help.?? At that time I was voting for 68000 to win! Too bad Motorola had scruples. We got stuck with Intel. bill From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 12 19:07:53 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 18:07:53 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 BETTER In-Reply-To: <7c599359-7282-c28d-dde1-83d60d1e0d23@gmail.com> References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> <00e6f777-54bc-ceb0-d441-44d3e973154e@dunnington.plus.com> <559d7297-cead-b595-6884-d3837e891f4a@gmail.com> <7c599359-7282-c28d-dde1-83d60d1e0d23@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/2019 4:45 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > The 6809 (hitachi 63B09) are about as close to PDP11 in general > structure and > instruction set and could boogy.?? The were a cusp 16 bitter (not really > but close). > > The 8088/86 was not wonderful, and what came after had all the side baggage > to not help.?? At that time I was voting for 68000 to win! > So was I, but all we got was the MAC (128K memory) and game machines. > Allison I am building a TTL computer from 1973 as I said earlier. This is to compiete with the PDP 11 and the PDP 8. Major design features a single memory bus and character I/O (10 bits) and word/character addressing. The hardest part is getting a card edge connector for the bus, in .156 inch pitch. All I can find are 28/56 and 36/72 pin connectors. A possible design is loosely based of the 6800 cpu but 18 bits. EBAY for the hard to find parts and the rest off the shelf TTL or LS part depending the bus clock. Since proms seem to out in 1973 I will be using them. 876 543 210 987 654 321 +-----------------------+ |ooo|baa|xx-|?##|###|###| normal opcode +-----------------------+ +-----------------------+ |ooo|I00|###|###|###|##0| bcc opcode + 1K words +-----------------------+ +-----------------------+ |00h|000|00-|000|000|000| hlt opcode +-----------------------+ +-----------------------+ |000|000|xx.|?##|###|###| lea opcode +-----------------------+ ooo opcode b byte aa jmp,ac,ix,sp xx #,Z,ix,sp A simpler 20 bit cpu is possible but might be to primitive a design with only word addressing and possible random logic design having NO proms in the design. +-----------------------+ |ooobaa|xx####|####|####| normal opcode +-----------------------+ It is really amazing how fast electronics changed between 1971 and 1976. Ben. From steven at malikoff.com Sat Jan 12 20:46:54 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 12:46:54 +1000 Subject: PDP-11 BETTER In-Reply-To: References: <20190111193234.20D1D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6266fd08-5562-4f01-98de-91b37ea3509f@dunnington.plus.com> <879F6C74-B95A-4D64-ADEC-4A0DA63F7F19@gmail.com> <5A681BA4-B1CA-417F-93BB-2C8D8CC345E0@avanthar.com> <00e6f777-54bc-ceb0-d441-44d3e973154e@dunnington.plus.com> <559d7297-cead-b595-6884-d3837e891f4a@gmail.com> <7c599359-7282-c28d-dde1-83d60d1e0d23@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46b773fcb352946855cd2fcb72d2bbee.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Ben said > I am building a TTL computer from 1973 as I said earlier. This is to > compiete > with the PDP 11 and the PDP 8. Major design features a single memory bus > and character I/O (10 bits) and word/character addressing. It sounds like you are building a machine similar to the EDUC-8, which was a hardwired machine built from 96 TTL ICs and unashamedly based on the PDP-8. Here's the front cover of Electronics Australia magazine, December 1974 showing it in front of a Straight 8 at Fairfax publishing, Sydney. The project construction articles started a few months earlier in August, pipped by the Mark-8 by just a month. The construction articles are still available as a small book. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/EA_Dec_1974_cover.jpg Steve. From hollandia at ccountry.net Sat Jan 12 23:31:01 2019 From: hollandia at ccountry.net (hollandia at ccountry.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 21:31:01 -0800 Subject: Bogus "account hacked" message Message-ID: One of this list's members gave me a URL for handling these emails. Through that URL was found the following, to which those emails can be forwarded. https://isc.sans.edu/contact.html Thanks, Kurt () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments From ball.of.john at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 12:32:37 2019 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 10:32:37 -0800 Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >ELTRAN THE COMPILER >ANY DOCS? ANY ONE? USED IT? >(NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!)) > >ED# Hey ed, you might want to check your Caps Lock key there, bud. ;) From pete at pski.net Sun Jan 13 12:31:45 2019 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 13:31:45 -0500 Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87B3AFF5-B0ED-4BE2-B866-5C2D075A88E3@pski.net> > On Jan 13, 2019, at 1:32 PM, John Ball via cctalk wrote: > >> ELTRAN THE COMPILER >> ANY DOCS? ANY ONE? USED IT? >> (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!)) >> >> ED# > > Hey ed, you might want to check your Caps Lock key there, bud. ;) Maybe he?s using a TRS-80 without the lowercase enhancement? :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 13 12:43:17 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 10:43:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: wanted TO BUy any and all XSCRIBE KEY BOARD AND COMPUTER closed caption related & Steno typer key board related ... docs... parts.. units building up an working analog CC demo chain for display in our Deaf and Hard of Hearing assisting tech area. In-Reply-To: <144747633.17605327.1547323528232@mail.yahoo.com> References: <144747633.17605327.1547323528232.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <144747633.17605327.1547323528232@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You could also do small sub-exhibits: on how closed captioning works (2 ASCII characters in line 21 of vertical retrace) history of federal actions difference between subtitles, CC, SDH: "He is in a meeting" "He can see you now" "Oh, I'm sorry, he seems to have stepped out" V Mozart horn concerto in E flat "He is in a meeting" [toilet flushes] "He can see you now" [gunshot] [door slams] [tires squeal] "Oh, I'm sorry, he seems to have stepped out" content of .SRT file Sub-ripper how to add an .SRT file to an MP4 (Handbrake, VLC output, etc.) On Sat, 12 Jan 2019, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > wanted any and all XSCRIBE closed caption related and steno typer key board? related ... docs... parts.. units building up an? working analog CC? demo chain for display in our Deaf and Hard of Hearing assisting tech area.? will consider othe brand gear to if even just for static display too.... > Interested in ad materials photos, war stories. etc etc? > ? thanks. Ed Sharpe From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jan 13 13:12:27 2019 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 11:12:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) In-Reply-To: <87B3AFF5-B0ED-4BE2-B866-5C2D075A88E3@pski.net> References: <87B3AFF5-B0ED-4BE2-B866-5C2D075A88E3@pski.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jan 2019, Peter Cetinski via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jan 13, 2019, at 1:32 PM, John Ball via cctalk wrote: >> >>> ELTRAN THE COMPILER >>> ANY DOCS? ANY ONE? USED IT? >>> (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!)) >>> >>> ED# >> >> Hey ed, you might want to check your Caps Lock key there, bud. ;) > > Maybe he?s using a TRS-80 without the lowercase enhancement? :) ...running WordSalad 1.01(beta). g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From spc at conman.org Sun Jan 13 13:47:48 2019 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 14:47:48 -0500 Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190113194748.GF19796@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great John Ball via cctalk once stated: > >ELTRAN THE COMPILER > >ANY DOCS? ANY ONE? USED IT? > >(NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!)) > > > >ED# > > Hey ed, you might want to check your Caps Lock key there, bud. ;) My dad used to do that. At the time, I thought it was because AOL (where he checked email) automatically upper cased all emails. A few years ago he got a new computer, a Chromebook, and he immediately bitched that he couldn't send out emails in all caps. What? Yup. He did it intentionally because, as he said, most of his friends were hard of seeing, and by using ALL CAPS the letters were bigger and thus, easier to read. But the new Chromebook removed the CAPSLOCK key. The fact that most email clients [1] could use a larger font was lost on him. -spc [1] Unless you are using a physical terminal or running a PC in text mode only. From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 13 14:14:05 2019 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 21:14:05 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret found a new home. Message-ID: <772f1467-bda3-5387-d9fc-50f3c5558279@xs4all.nl> Hi Everyone, The DiscFerret found a new home. I did get some questions on its usefulness, which I would address here. Indeed the software developed for it is limited to a driver and some analytical tools. But it uses the same format for flux-intervals as the CatWeasel, at different (higher) clock rates. So any open source CatWeasel program is easy to adapt to the DiscFerret. Using the provided MagPie dump program I managed to adapted Tim Mann's cw2dmk program for the CatWeasel to dfi-files (https://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/divcomp/discferret/). Of course this only does FM, MFM and variants (DEC and Intel), but demonstrate its usefulness for archiving. It is too bad production stopped and the writing image software never materialized. BTW, reading floppy disk rate flux-changes can reliably be read with modern ~100 MHz micro-controller. Several are commercial available. AFAIK not open source. Greetings, Fred Jan From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jan 13 14:26:13 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 20:26:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: wanted TO BUy any and all XSCRIBE KEY BOARD AND COMPUTER closed caption related & Steno typer key board related ... docs... parts.. units building up an working analog CC demo chain for display in our Deaf and Hard of Hearing assisting tech area. References: <1518787122.17916517.1547411173328.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1518787122.17916517.1547411173328@mail.yahoo.com> Yes, Fred there is,a lot of differnt facts to cc history...? an odd one was when CBS wanted the own? system not compliant with line 21... that attempt touched off demonstrations in the street and more... we have some great pic of the event.? ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Sunday, January 13, 2019 Fred Cisin wrote: You could also do small sub-exhibits: on how closed captioning works (2 ASCII characters in line 21 of vertical retrace) history of federal actions difference between subtitles, CC, SDH: "He is in a meeting" "He can see you now" "Oh, I'm sorry, he seems to have stepped out" V Mozart horn concerto in E flat "He is in a meeting" [toilet flushes] "He can see you now" [gunshot] [door slams] [tires squeal] "Oh, I'm sorry, he seems to have stepped out" content of .SRT file Sub-ripper how to add an .SRT file to an MP4 (Handbrake, VLC output, etc.) On Sat, 12 Jan 2019, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > wanted any and all XSCRIBE closed caption related and steno typer key board? related ... docs... parts.. units building up an? working analog CC? demo chain for display in our Deaf and Hard of Hearing assisting tech area.? will consider othe brand gear to if even just for static display too.... > Interested in ad materials photos, war stories. etc etc? > ? thanks. Ed Sharpe From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jan 13 14:51:15 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 20:51:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) References: <764096288.17910482.1547412675414.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <764096288.17910482.1547412675414@mail.yahoo.com> sometimea it starts out locked and when it is hard to type. I just finish it in uppers .? -ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Sunday, January 13, 2019 geneb via cctalk wrote: On Sun, 13 Jan 2019, Peter Cetinski via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jan 13, 2019, at 1:32 PM, John Ball via cctalk wrote: >> >>> ELTRAN THE COMPILER >>> ANY DOCS? ANY ONE? USED IT? >>> (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!)) >>> >>> ED# >> >> Hey ed, you might want to check your Caps Lock key there, bud. ;) > > Maybe he?s using a TRS-80 without the lowercase enhancement? :) ...running WordSalad 1.01(beta). g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby.? Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 13 15:06:22 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 13:06:22 -0800 Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) In-Reply-To: <20190113194748.GF19796@brevard.conman.org> References: <20190113194748.GF19796@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 1/13/19 11:47 AM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > Yup. He did it intentionally because, as he said, most of his friends > were hard of seeing, and by using ALL CAPS the letters were bigger and thus, > easier to read. But the new Chromebook removed the CAPSLOCK key. > > The fact that most email clients [1] could use a larger font was lost on > him. Ctrl-"+"? Being an old hard-of-seeing guy myself, I much prefer mixed-case to all-caps. All caps destroys the "shape" of words. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 13 15:57:02 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 14:57:02 -0700 Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) In-Reply-To: References: <20190113194748.GF19796@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <518d0ed5-5e40-e49c-8b6e-efebe92efb32@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/13/2019 2:06 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Being an old hard-of-seeing guy myself, I much prefer mixed-case to > all-caps. All caps destroys the "shape" of words. Where is the $%!@ codepage for the ASR-33. Get all caps with a REAL keyboard and better text (with a new ribbon) than a tiny 24x80 console window on 1280 x 1024 screen. > --Chuck > Ben. From spc at conman.org Sun Jan 13 19:32:25 2019 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 20:32:25 -0500 Subject: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!))) In-Reply-To: <518d0ed5-5e40-e49c-8b6e-efebe92efb32@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20190113194748.GF19796@brevard.conman.org> <518d0ed5-5e40-e49c-8b6e-efebe92efb32@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20190114013225.GG19796@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great ben via cctalk once stated: > On 1/13/2019 2:06 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > >Being an old hard-of-seeing guy myself, I much prefer mixed-case to > >all-caps. All caps destroys the "shape" of words. > > Where is the $%!@ codepage for the ASR-33. Get all caps with a REAL keyboard > and better text (with a new ribbon) than a tiny 24x80 console window on > 1280 x 1024 screen. I configured a console window setting with a 36 pt font. It's *real easy* to read, even from across the room on my 1920x1178 display. -spc (the next font size, 48 pt, doesn't fit 80x24 on the screen ...) From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jan 13 19:47:37 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 01:47:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Bellmac 8 Tutor on ebay References: <1196701101.18002356.1547430457915.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1196701101.18002356.1547430457915@mail.yahoo.com> If any the? group? gets the? bell mac? we would love? a scan? or? hi? res? photo of that multi? colored? sheet. It? would? look? nice? printed in the? back? of? a? display? of? ? one of these units? here.We? have? ?3 of these units as? I remember...? and? actually? ?when I? get my hands around them one? will be? up? for? grabs. Please? advise? ?------Ed# SMECC? From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 20:57:43 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 18:57:43 -0800 Subject: Bellmac 8 Tutor on ebay In-Reply-To: <1196701101.18002356.1547430457915@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1196701101.18002356.1547430457915.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1196701101.18002356.1547430457915@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sold to someone out there for $358 Is there an archive of The Western Electric Engineer journal online anywhere? In the July 1977, Volume 21, Number 3 issue there is a 7 page article "MAC-8: A Microprocessor for Telecommunication Applications", by Herbert H. Winfield". which provides a good architectural overview of the MAC-8 for those that are interested. Several years ago I found that the University of Minnesota Libraries had that issue in their collection and they were able to provide a photocopy on request for a minimal charge to cover processing and copyright expenses. From a quick glance at their website now it's not obvious if they still provide that service, and still have that journal in their collection. From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jan 13 21:16:23 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 03:16:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Bellmac 8 Tutor on ebay References: <439313064.18041170.1547435783274.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <439313064.18041170.1547435783274@mail.yahoo.com> is there anything in bstj? if so they are at archive.org.?? ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Sunday, January 13, 2019 Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: Sold to someone out there for $358 Is there an archive of The Western Electric Engineer journal online anywhere? In the July 1977, Volume 21, Number 3 issue there is a 7 page article "MAC-8: A Microprocessor for Telecommunication Applications", by Herbert H. Winfield".? which provides a good architectural overview of the MAC-8 for those that are interested. Several years ago I found that the University of Minnesota Libraries had that issue in their collection and they were able to provide a photocopy on request for a minimal charge to cover processing and copyright expenses. From a quick glance at their website now it's not obvious if they still provide that service, and still have that journal in their collection. From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jan 13 21:27:55 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 03:27:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Bellmac 8 Tutor on ebay References: <325972351.18055456.1547436475573.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <325972351.18055456.1547436475573@mail.yahoo.com> also if you have an IEEE library access I get a number of hits of other articles mentioning mac 8. thanks .. ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Sunday, January 13, 2019 Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: Sold to someone out there for $358 Is there an archive of The Western Electric Engineer journal online anywhere? In the July 1977, Volume 21, Number 3 issue there is a 7 page article "MAC-8: A Microprocessor for Telecommunication Applications", by Herbert H. Winfield".? which provides a good architectural overview of the MAC-8 for those that are interested. Several years ago I found that the University of Minnesota Libraries had that issue in their collection and they were able to provide a photocopy on request for a minimal charge to cover processing and copyright expenses. From a quick glance at their website now it's not obvious if they still provide that service, and still have that journal in their collection. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 22:15:52 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 22:15:52 -0600 Subject: Bellmac 8 Tutor on ebay In-Reply-To: <1196701101.18002356.1547430457915@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1196701101.18002356.1547430457915.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1196701101.18002356.1547430457915@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 7:47 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > If any the group gets the bell mac we would love a scan or hi res photo of that multi colored sheet. It would look nice printed in the back of a display of one of these units here.We have 3 of these units as I remember... and actually when I get my hands around them one will be up for grabs. Please advise ------Ed# SMECC Seconded - I have one of these boards (without the fancy case) but I have zero docs for it, save for what little is online. The auction seemed to have a few booklets, as well as the poster. j From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jan 13 22:35:14 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 04:35:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Bellmac 8 Tutor on ebay References: <2050040007.18068243.1547440514556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2050040007.18068243.1547440514556@mail.yahoo.com> there should be a yellow covered 8x11 manual out there if not.. let me know... Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Sunday, January 13, 2019 Jason T via cctalk wrote: On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 7:47 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > If any the? group? gets the? bell mac? we would love? a scan? or? hi? res? photo of that multi? colored? sheet. It? would? look? nice? printed in the? back? of? a? display? of? ? one of these units? here.We? have? 3 of these units as? I remember...? and? actually? when I? get my hands around them one? will be? up? for? grabs. Please? advise? ------Ed# SMECC Seconded - I have one of these boards (without the fancy case) but I have zero docs for it, save for what little is online.? The auction seemed to have a few booklets, as well as the poster. j From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Jan 14 01:40:57 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 07:40:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Bellmac 8 Tutor on ebay References: <1060942063.18122342.1547451657988.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1060942063.18122342.1547451657988@mail.yahoo.com> Wayne: Yes this is a great reference! ? The yellow manual is the one I had mentioned before along with others is available in the bitsavers link at the bottom of your article link. In addition there is the Bell System Technical Journal article announcing release of the microprocessor listed at the end of your article also.? -Ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Sunday, January 13, 2019 Wayne S wrote: There this link to "Ferretronix" that seems to have relevant info. http://ferretronix.com/march/sbc/mactutor/ Wayne > On Jan 13, 2019, at 8:35 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > > there should be a yellow covered 8x11 manual out there if not.. let me know... > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > On Sunday, January 13, 2019 Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 7:47 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk > wrote: >> >> If any the? group? gets the? bell mac? we would love? a scan? or? hi? res? photo of that multi? colored? sheet. It? would? look? nice? printed in the? back? of? a? display? of? ? one of these units? here.We? have? 3 of these units as? I remember...? and? actually? when I? get my hands around them one? will be? up? for? grabs. Please? advise? ------Ed# SMECC > > Seconded - I have one of these boards (without the fancy case) but I > have zero docs for it, save for what little is online.? The auction > seemed to have a few booklets, as well as the poster. > > j From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Jan 14 02:18:58 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 00:18:58 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <20190109161933.AC96618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190109161933.AC96618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5E16B32B-2345-4C7E-87B5-F93FC341A7A6@fritzm.org> Got to work on this problem a little more this weekend. Worked up some simple standalone diagnostics to map and test all the memory on my 256K MS11-P. Sure enough, I?m seeing some stuck bits at various addresses in physical address range 700000-757777. Need to clean up the diagnostics a bit and add some reporting for a complete picture of what?s going on, but there?s definitely a smoking gun here... --FritzM. From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Mon Jan 14 00:41:35 2019 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 06:41:35 +0000 Subject: Bellmac 8 Tutor on ebay In-Reply-To: <2050040007.18068243.1547440514556@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2050040007.18068243.1547440514556.ref@mail.yahoo.com>, <2050040007.18068243.1547440514556@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There this link to "Ferretronix" that seems to have relevant info. http://ferretronix.com/march/sbc/mactutor/ Wayne > On Jan 13, 2019, at 8:35 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > > there should be a yellow covered 8x11 manual out there if not.. let me know... > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > On Sunday, January 13, 2019 Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 7:47 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk > wrote: >> >> If any the group gets the bell mac we would love a scan or hi res photo of that multi colored sheet. It would look nice printed in the back of a display of one of these units here.We have 3 of these units as I remember... and actually when I get my hands around them one will be up for grabs. Please advise ------Ed# SMECC > > Seconded - I have one of these boards (without the fancy case) but I > have zero docs for it, save for what little is online. The auction > seemed to have a few booklets, as well as the poster. > > j From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 14 08:14:58 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 09:14:58 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <5E16B32B-2345-4C7E-87B5-F93FC341A7A6@fritzm.org> References: <20190109161933.AC96618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5E16B32B-2345-4C7E-87B5-F93FC341A7A6@fritzm.org> Message-ID: > On Jan 14, 2019, at 3:18 AM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > Got to work on this problem a little more this weekend. Worked up some simple standalone diagnostics to map and test all the memory on my 256K MS11-P. Sure enough, I?m seeing some stuck bits at various addresses in physical address range 700000-757777. > > Need to clean up the diagnostics a bit and add some reporting for a complete picture of what?s going on, but there?s definitely a smoking gun here... > > --FritzM. Great, that certainly fits the symptoms. With RSTS, if there is a specific (and not too large) chunk of memory that is bad, you can instruct it to ignore that memory. In INIT DEFAULT, memory options, use the LOCK command. You then specify the memory to ignore as a kW address, or range (like 120k-124k). You can use the lock command multiple times to lock multiple ranges. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 14 11:25:28 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 12:25:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190114172528.2A82318C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > Worked up some simple standalone diagnostics to map and test all the > memory on my 256K MS11-P. Sure enough, I'm seeing some stuck bits at > various addresses in physical address range 700000-757777. Excellent news. (Sorry I've gone quiet - I got distracted from the analysis effort by trying to finish up the -11/34 ucode transcription effort.) Is it really an MS11-P? Those are EUB memories; I don't recall offhand if they (like the MS11-M) have a jumper to configure them to operate on the UNIBUS. Noel From kyle000 at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 09:23:25 2019 From: kyle000 at gmail.com (kk) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 10:23:25 -0500 Subject: Free: SGI Indigo R4k (NYC area) Message-ID: Hi - I am making some room. I have a two SGI Indigos. One of them is a R4K. The second may be a r3k, but may be a r4k as well (I wont get a chance to check til the evening). Both will have ram/cpu/graphics/sled. If youre local, come and get them. If no takers locally, I will ship for cost of shipping (but I wont get a real chance to do this for a week or 2, if not longer). Ping me if youre interested, thanks. From kyle000 at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 09:26:30 2019 From: kyle000 at gmail.com (kk) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 10:26:30 -0500 Subject: Looking for SGI Onyx system and/or parts Message-ID: Does anyone have any SGI Onyx parts? Any parts. I am trying to resurrect a deskside r10k onyx, and will need parts - right now I am more focused on power and VCAM parts, but again, I am interested in all parts. And if you have a system, I would be interested as well. This is the original onyx, not the onyx2. I have an issue that is power or vcam related. thanks. From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 14 13:20:38 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 13:20:38 -0600 Subject: Houston stash sorting this coming Saturday Message-ID: <059a01d4ac3e$3b870040$b29500c0$@com> The 2 sheds will be sorted next Saturday morning, early, in Katy, TX. If you want the address, pls email me. If you are in the Austin, TX area, there might be room in a carpool. Same for the Minneapolis and Michigan areas. If you are coming, please wear sturdy boots, gloves, bring bottled water, and dress in layers, as it might be either 35F or 75F that day. Bring your own food. Bring cash, no checks or cc. Not sure about restroom facilities. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 13:36:01 2019 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 14:36:01 -0500 Subject: Looking for SGI Onyx system and/or parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a complete working onyx deskside and complete terminator rack for sale. Contact me if interested and we can discuss specs, negotiate price / shipping. On Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 1:53 PM kk via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have any SGI Onyx parts? Any parts. I am trying to resurrect a > deskside r10k onyx, and will need parts - right now I am more focused on > power and VCAM parts, but again, I am interested in all parts. > > And if you have a system, I would be interested as well. > > This is the original onyx, not the onyx2. I have an issue that is power or > vcam related. > > thanks. > From bear at typewritten.org Mon Jan 14 13:42:04 2019 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 11:42:04 -0800 Subject: Looking for SGI Onyx system and/or parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12682F4D-F7AC-4E1C-A87E-111B7397F215@typewritten.org> On Jan 14, 2019, at 7:26 AM, kk via cctech wrote: > Does anyone have any SGI Onyx parts? Any parts. I am trying to resurrect a > deskside r10k onyx, and will need parts - right now I am more focused on > power and VCAM parts, but again, I am interested in all parts. I have many spare VCAMs. Probably all of them need Dallas RTC rework. I have many spare SCIP Mezz (3x SCSI add-on for IO4) as well. ok bear. -- until further notice From bear at typewritten.org Mon Jan 14 13:42:04 2019 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 11:42:04 -0800 Subject: Looking for SGI Onyx system and/or parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12682F4D-F7AC-4E1C-A87E-111B7397F215@typewritten.org> On Jan 14, 2019, at 7:26 AM, kk via cctech wrote: > Does anyone have any SGI Onyx parts? Any parts. I am trying to resurrect a > deskside r10k onyx, and will need parts - right now I am more focused on > power and VCAM parts, but again, I am interested in all parts. I have many spare VCAMs. Probably all of them need Dallas RTC rework. I have many spare SCIP Mezz (3x SCSI add-on for IO4) as well. ok bear. -- until further notice From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 14 13:58:15 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 13:58:15 -0600 Subject: Houston Jan 2019 Want List Message-ID: <05e301d4ac43$7cef4970$76cddc50$@com> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SrVeiZ5uhzZSCf3bV3QCJBQ81Jc0PukDUp79 KnygEf0/edit?usp=sharing Please enter your interests here. We will be able to access it while we are sorting. So far it looks like maybe a dozen people might come. Hooray! Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Jan 14 14:55:25 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 12:55:25 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <20190114172528.2A82318C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190114172528.2A82318C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1C7A3B19-14E1-4542-BB98-A16284A841E5@fritzm.org> > On Jan 14, 2019, at 9:25 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Is it really an MS11-P? Nope, I fat-fingered that! It?s a 256KB MS11-L. --FritzM. From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 14 15:17:30 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 15:17:30 -0600 Subject: Folder for pics of Houston haul Jan 2019 Message-ID: <064701d4ac4e$8f6192b0$ae24b810$@com> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Kw9caNwgBhlP-FMfQo9jsuTMeE2n0vd8?usp =sharing I will be posting pics here while we sort. I can update this from my cell phone in the field. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Jan 14 18:53:42 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 16:53:42 -0800 Subject: Folder for pics of Houston haul Jan 2019 In-Reply-To: <064701d4ac4e$8f6192b0$ae24b810$@com> References: <064701d4ac4e$8f6192b0$ae24b810$@com> Message-ID: To make things easier to organize, please don?t use a new subject line every time you post about this. Ideally, please use a more descriptive subject line in the first place (?Who is in Houston?? says nothing about why you want to know if anyone is in Houston, ?Houston IBM haul? would be much more descriptive) and just reply to your own emails with further organizing details. That way: (1) people who are interested in the haul will find out about it (some people may just think there?s a meetup in Houston), (2) everything related to this haul will be in a single place and easy to see updates on, and (3) people who aren?t in Houston and/or aren?t interested in the IBM stuff can more easily ignore the topic, rather than have to decide with each change in subject line whether it?s something to care about. -- Chris > On Jan 14, 2019, at 1:17 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Kw9caNwgBhlP-FMfQo9jsuTMeE2n0vd8?usp > =sharing > > > > I will be posting pics here while we sort. I can update this from my cell > phone in the field. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From shumaker at att.net Mon Jan 14 19:10:21 2019 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 17:10:21 -0800 Subject: parts pickup in Orem UT Message-ID: Is there anyone on list in or near Orem UT willing to pick up a couple smallish boxes (Looks like "book cartons" or similar) that the seller is unwilling to ship? Reply off list if interested/willing Steve Shumaker Boulder Creek, CA From cctalk at ibmjunkman.com Mon Jan 14 21:38:30 2019 From: cctalk at ibmjunkman.com (cctalk) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 19:38:30 -0800 Subject: 3850 media Message-ID: <27321999-A7C7-4D87-ABF4-F81BE673821D@ibmjunkman.com> I believe someone was looking for these recently. https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-3850-media-cartridge-1970s-vintage/123591889131 From oldthingswantednow at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 19:57:16 2019 From: oldthingswantednow at gmail.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 19:57:16 -0600 Subject: Test Message-ID: Test. Please ignore. IMG_6213.JPG From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 00:18:58 2019 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 04:18:58 -0200 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a test designed to provoke an emotional response ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com http://www.tabalabs.com.br ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- Em ter, 15 de jan de 2019 ?s 03:49, Cindy Croxton via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu: > Test. Please ignore. > IMG_6213.JPG > < > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RTwYMqkRo64MD6u0Siam1kA0JqcY4t-g/view?usp=drivesdk > > > From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 13:33:01 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 20:33:01 +0100 Subject: Enjoyable blog post about a retro writing tool: the Amstrad NC100 Message-ID: https://tantobieinternettattler.blogspot.com/2019/01/the-amstrad-nc100-portable-perfection.html I have one of these myself -- my piece about it (and some its kin) is here... https://www.theregister.co.uk/Print/2011/11/10/portable_writing_tool/ -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 14:33:04 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 15:33:04 -0500 Subject: 3850 media In-Reply-To: <27321999-A7C7-4D87-ABF4-F81BE673821D@ibmjunkman.com> References: <27321999-A7C7-4D87-ABF4-F81BE673821D@ibmjunkman.com> Message-ID: Peter, was that what you were looking for? =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 10:38 PM cctalk via cctalk wrote: > I believe someone was looking for these recently. > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-3850-media-cartridge-1970s-vintage/123591889131 > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Tue Jan 15 18:46:41 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 19:46:41 -0500 Subject: DEC VR150 CRT Monitor Message-ID: <5b535347-9675-f5b0-f2d1-34a128846f38@comcast.net> I have one of these and would like to get it working correctly, but can't find any info on it from the internet. It has a date code of 1989 and was built in Yokahama Japan, by who I don't know. Does anyone know who DEC had build there CRT monitors back then? Are schematics available? Doug From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 15 19:01:08 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 20:01:08 -0500 Subject: Obscure IBM trivia T-shirt Message-ID: https://www.zazzle.co.uk/ikf4084i_c_t_shirt-235922162936523884 In the 1970s I got a catalog from a T-shirt company named "Outer products" and this one was in it. I had to look it up in the OS/360 "Messages and Codes" manual. It's a real code, and it fits. I never did try to reproduce it, though. paul From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 22:15:09 2019 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 23:15:09 -0500 Subject: Relating to 386 / 486 motherboards wanted Message-ID: About a week ago, "drlegendre" posted looking for some 386 and 486 boards. I said i had some, but was quickly overwhelmed with work and have not had time to post back till now. Should anyone else be interested, I'm putting a link to some pictures of what 386 and 486 boards i have. Some have corrosion from battery leaking, i usually clip those off, and use an external battery. If you have a board of interest in the pictures , let me know and i will clean it up and make sure it posts / checks out. I have other boards as well, for pentium, pentium pro, amd k6, 5.25 floppys, drives, etc. Plans are to get a website going with a listing of everything, but for now, if you are looking for an older system , just let me know, and ill get back to you with what i have on hand. https://postimg.cc/gallery/ebkjait6/ --Devin D. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 23:11:23 2019 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 00:11:23 -0500 Subject: PDP 11 repairs in progress Message-ID: Hello, ive been reading on the list here for a while. I'm usually in the background not seen much, I figured i would give a status update on my pdp 11/34 system. I have been moving quite often for work over the past couple years, and still have not gotten my machine running since picking it up over 3 years ago. Thankfully I have all of the equipment and peripherals in one place now, and am hoping to get this thing finally running soon. I had picked up an entire truckload of a pdp 11/34 system. Its an 11/34 with a tape drive in a separate rack, 2 rl02 drives and an rl01. Lots of disk packs and terminals. I fought with some power supply troubles at first, but after some part swapping i got the machine to power back up. As of right now, i have a minimal machine that i can key in programs on the front panel. I was able to enter programs through the front panel that would display on the vt100 connected via current loop. Thats pretty much the state of things right now. The system is in a minimal state,most of the cards are removed for troubleshooting. i wanted to test the hardware and see if i can boot to a disk packs. My disk packs appear to be loaded with RSX. I was trying to switch from current loop to rs232, so i can connect the machine to a modern computer with a serial port, and dump diagnostics over the line to test the machine. I have tried wiring up the cable, but am getting intermittent garbage on the terminal. Thats pretty much the hangup at the moment. I hope to over the weekend troubleshoot it further and get this project moving again. There is a lot of local activity here with all the hacker spaces and amateur radio folks, i really want to get it running in some kind of public manner that others can interact with, perhaps some kind of telnet gateway or over ax.25 packet, but thats later down the line once its running. There is also another 11 I am picking up in Georgia in the following week, so i have that drive ahead of me. Not even sure i will get started checking the other system out till the 34 is running. Well, thats about it for the state of things and my progress. Once i get things cleaned up a little better ill post back with some pictures of the current setup. --Devin D. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jan 16 05:38:46 2019 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 11:38:46 +0000 (WET) Subject: DEC VR150 CRT Monitor In-Reply-To: <5b535347-9675-f5b0-f2d1-34a128846f38@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01R22UI0O4LW8WWOTF@beyondthepale.ie> > > I have one of these and would like to get it working correctly, but > can't find any info on it from the internet. > > It has a date code of 1989 and was built in Yokahama Japan, by who I > don't know. > > Does anyone know who DEC had build there CRT monitors back then? Are > schematics available? > I have a VR297-D3 which is actually a Sony GDM-1602. These details are written on the label on the back of my monitor though so I guess they aren't on yours. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From j_hoppe at t-online.de Wed Jan 16 04:17:31 2019 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 11:17:31 +0100 Subject: "Plug and Play" adapter for PDP-11/70 panel - BlinkenBone update Message-ID: <91bf96bd-4454-d010-91b3-b50b658f7975@t-online.de> There's a new adapter board for the BlinkenBone system. Now you can painlessly plug a physical 11/70 panel to the extended SimH running on a BeagleBone. See http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone/physical-pdp-11-70-panels/288-pdp-11-70-console-panel-on-blinkenbone-plug-and-play-adapter Entry to far-too-many web pages here: http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone All in all there are now at least 3 different (but compatible) ways to get a blinking 11/70 with SimH. - Connect a real 11/70 panel http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone/physical-pdp-11-70-panels - Run the virtual Java panel http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone/simulated-panels/243-blinkenbone-panelsim-pdp11-70 Download &run from github https://github.com/j-hoppe/BlinkenBone/releases - get Oscars Vermeulens PiDP11 http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11 Is that enough '70 now? Joerg From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 16 13:47:58 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 14:47:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Interlan 2010 (QBUS) manual Message-ID: <20190116194758.9BB7218C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Does anyone have an Interlan NI2010 (the QBUS version of their Ethernet interface) manual? Bitsavers has the NI1010 (UNIBUS), and I have a driver for the 2010, and between them I can probably figure out the 2010, but the 'real thing' would be superior. Noel From john at ziaspace.com Wed Jan 16 15:37:31 2019 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 21:37:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Vintage-computing relevant IOBCC entry Message-ID: > /* You are not expected to understand this. */ > > https://www.ioccc.org/2018/mills/hint.html Unsurprisingly, the original 1984 submission still compiles and runs as expected on a VAX running NetBSD 8 with gcc 5.5.0 :) https://www.ioccc.org/1984/mullender/hint.html John From useddec at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 02:28:14 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 02:28:14 -0600 Subject: 2 vax 4000-300s, 54KHA-AB, storage container and drives Message-ID: Any interest in anything? Please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From useddec at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 02:59:00 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 02:59:00 -0600 Subject: Interlan 2010 (QBUS) manual In-Reply-To: <20190116194758.9BB7218C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190116194758.9BB7218C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Hi Noel, I think I have some boards, but will have to do some digging for any possible docs. Paul On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Does anyone have an Interlan NI2010 (the QBUS version of their Ethernet > interface) > manual? > > Bitsavers has the NI1010 (UNIBUS), and I have a driver for the 2010, and > between > them I can probably figure out the 2010, but the 'real thing' would be > superior. > > Noel > From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 04:53:46 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 11:53:46 +0100 Subject: Vintage-computing relevant IOBCC entry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 22:37, John Klos via cctalk wrote: > > > /* You are not expected to understand this. */ > > > > https://www.ioccc.org/2018/mills/hint.html > > Unsurprisingly, the original 1984 submission still compiles and runs as > expected on a VAX running NetBSD 8 with gcc 5.5.0 :) > > https://www.ioccc.org/1984/mullender/hint.html As is right, proper, faintly alarming, and additionally justifies one of the core plot ideas of Vernor Vinge's novel /A Deepness in the Sky/. :-D -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From steven at malikoff.com Wed Jan 16 19:16:55 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 11:16:55 +1000 Subject: "Plug and Play" adapter for PDP-11/70 panel - BlinkenBone update In-Reply-To: <91bf96bd-4454-d010-91b3-b50b658f7975@t-online.de> References: <91bf96bd-4454-d010-91b3-b50b658f7975@t-online.de> Message-ID: <713c9b7d3832c0cba7e44ddb1625fba2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> That's really nice! Looking at your photos there seems to be an ability to re-jumper the console ribbon cable on your new board, if so would it be able to be then used with other original PDP-11 consoles? I am doing up the CAD model for the 11/05 console (it's really quite a simple shape) and its switch register board so anyone could print it off and have an accurate full-scale replica (C&K switch paddles done already). Steve. ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: "Plug and Play" adapter for PDP-11/70 panel - BlinkenBone update From: J?rg Hoppe via cctech Date: Wed, January 16, 2019 8:17 pm To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > There's a new adapter board for the BlinkenBone system. > Now you can painlessly plug a physical 11/70 panel to the extended SimH > running on a BeagleBone. > > See > http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone/physical-pdp-11-70-panels/288-pdp-11-70-console-panel-on-blinkenbone-plug-and-play-adapter > > Entry to far-too-many web pages here: > http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone > > All in all there are now at least 3 different (but compatible) ways to > get a blinking 11/70 with SimH. > > - Connect a real 11/70 panel > http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone/physical-pdp-11-70-panels > > - Run the virtual Java panel > http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone/simulated-panels/243-blinkenbone-panelsim-pdp11-70 > Download &run from github https://github.com/j-hoppe/BlinkenBone/releases > > - get Oscars Vermeulens PiDP11 > http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11 > > Is that enough '70 now? > > > Joerg > > From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Jan 17 09:44:09 2019 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 15:44:09 +0000 Subject: 2 vax 4000-300s, 54KHA-AB, storage container and drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paul, Where are the VAXen, and what are you looking to get for them? I?m in San Antonio, so if you?d rather just estimate shipping plus price, that?s what I?m really interested in :-). Are they likely to be in running condition? - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell > On Jan 17, 2019, at 2:28 AM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > > Any interest in anything? Please contact me off list. > > Thanks, Paul > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside SwRI and it may contain attachments and/or links. Do not open attachments or click on links unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jan 17 10:04:07 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 10:04:07 -0600 Subject: Telex terminal with keyboard Message-ID: <070701d4ae7e$47244a60$d56cdf20$@com> https://www.recycledgoods.com/ibm-compatible-terminal-with-keyboard-model-2- large-telex-277d-as-is/ Might be too expensive? Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jan 17 10:33:58 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 10:33:58 -0600 Subject: Data General Keyboard for D412 or D412+ Message-ID: <074b01d4ae82$726462b0$572d2810$@com> https://www.recycledgoods.com/data-general-6348-a-terminal-keyboard-for-d-41 2-d412-mechanical-keys/ Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From rtomek at ceti.pl Thu Jan 17 12:04:27 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 19:04:27 +0100 Subject: EmuVR & videogames & monitors... Message-ID: <20190117180426.GA20103@tau1.ceti.pl> Hi there, Those who complained about diminishing stash of 4:3 monitors, soon you will have them all emulated, together with your favourite pdps and standing in vr recreation of your bedroom of the era: [ EmuVR Lets You Play '80s/'90s Videogames--in '80s/'90s Virtual Reality Settings https://www.core77.com//posts/82315/EmuVR-Lets-You-Play-80s90s-Videogames-in-80s90s-Virtual-Reality-Settings ] "You can even choose to play them on crappy '80s TV sets" Monolith in a bedroom, anybody? -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 17 12:45:19 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 13:45:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: "Plug and Play" adapter for PDP-11/70 panel - BlinkenBone update Message-ID: <20190117184519.32C6918C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jorg Hoppe > Now you can painlessly plug a physical 11/70 panel So I'm curious about the flat cables to the -11/70 console, which have been taken apart into individual conductors. I am wondering why? This doesn't seem to have been done because you needed to re-order them (they turn back into flat cables before they go into the connectors - although perhaps you cross-connected a pair of wires)? Easier access to individual signals for debugging? Needless to say, if people who want to build one of these also have to do this, I wouldn't exactly call it 'painless'! :-) Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 17 12:58:24 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 10:58:24 -0800 Subject: Interlan 2010 (QBUS) manual In-Reply-To: <20190116194758.9BB7218C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190116194758.9BB7218C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <36b43c0e-4a28-081a-5ecc-e961921fcd3b@bitsavers.org> On 1/16/19 11:47 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have an Interlan NI2010 (the QBUS version of their Ethernet interface) > manual? I found the brochure for the board, which gives the register layout http://bitsavers.org/pdf/interlan/brochures The main difference is the addition of a register for the extra adr bits From fedorkow at mit.edu Thu Jan 17 13:02:53 2019 From: fedorkow at mit.edu (Guy Fedorkow) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 14:02:53 -0500 Subject: seeking punched-card reader in Boston area Message-ID: <0f735779-040c-af92-50a6-dc640550a325@mit.edu> Greetings CCtalk, ? Does anyone in the Boston area know of a working 80-column punched-card reader? ? I'm working with a researcher at Harvard who's come across some very interesting election polling data from the 1960 Kennedy-Nixon race, punched onto about 10,000 cards (five boxes).? That's too many for manual transcription, but too few for an industrial-strength solution. ? The cards are in a professionally-managed university archive, so it's not as easy as just throwing them in a shipping box and sending them off to who-knows-where to be read. ? Some of the cards are in binary format, so I'm fine with some ad-hoc Pythonic data massaging, if I can just get the bits read. ? If anyone in the Boston area has a machine they might be able to make available, could you get in touch? ? That's fedorkow at mit.edu ? Thanks! /guy fedorkow From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 17 13:09:03 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 14:09:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Interlan 2010 (QBUS) manual Message-ID: <20190117190903.A22B918C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > I found the brochure for the board Ah, thanks very much! I had some details (from my old driver), but this discovery of yours answers my open questions (e.g. board format). Noel From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 17 13:29:54 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 11:29:54 -0800 Subject: EmuVR & videogames & monitors... In-Reply-To: <20190117180426.GA20103@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20190117180426.GA20103@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <618d73f9-0e98-5eb9-05e6-28d4e12d0b44@sydex.com> On 1/17/19 10:04 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > Monolith in a bedroom, anybody? Speaks of the generation, I guess--a bookcase with no books. --Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jan 17 14:06:44 2019 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 15:06:44 -0500 Subject: "Plug and Play" adapter for PDP-11/70 panel - BlinkenBone update In-Reply-To: <20190117184519.32C6918C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190117184519.32C6918C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <91b68702-33ac-a1f6-b212-72fa95606cd8@e-bbes.com> On 2019-01-17 13:45, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So I'm curious about the flat cables to the -11/70 console, which have been > taken apart into individual conductors. I am wondering why? I do/did it a lot, if you have to get around a corner, and they bend easier. I saw DEC SCSI cables being made like that. Cheers! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 17 14:34:35 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 12:34:35 -0800 Subject: Telex terminal with keyboard In-Reply-To: <070701d4ae7e$47244a60$d56cdf20$@com> References: <070701d4ae7e$47244a60$d56cdf20$@com> Message-ID: On 1/17/19 8:04 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > https://www.recycledgoods.com/ibm-compatible-terminal-with-keyboard-model-2- > large-telex-277d-as-is/ > > > > Might be too expensive? I have been following it, the problem would be the shipping cost. It is pretty big and heavy. From rtomek at ceti.pl Thu Jan 17 14:57:58 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 21:57:58 +0100 Subject: EmuVR & videogames & monitors... In-Reply-To: <618d73f9-0e98-5eb9-05e6-28d4e12d0b44@sydex.com> References: <20190117180426.GA20103@tau1.ceti.pl> <618d73f9-0e98-5eb9-05e6-28d4e12d0b44@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20190117205758.GB20103@tau1.ceti.pl> On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 11:29:54AM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/17/19 10:04 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > > > Monolith in a bedroom, anybody? > > Speaks of the generation, I guess--a bookcase with no books. Just in case you have just judged me: if I post a link it really only means I notice a trend, not that I endorse it. :-) -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From dmonnens at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 10:32:33 2019 From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 11:32:33 -0500 Subject: EDU Magazine (No. 12, Summer 1974) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does anyone here have copies of EDU Magazine by Digital Equipment Corporation? I was unable to find any on Bitsavers. I am specifically looking for No. 12, Summer 1974. -Devin Monnens From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Thu Jan 17 12:32:49 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 13:32:49 -0500 Subject: DEC VR150 CRT Monitor In-Reply-To: <01R22UI0O4LW8WWOTF@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01R22UI0O4LW8WWOTF@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 1/16/2019 6:38 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctech wrote: >> I have one of these and would like to get it working correctly, but >> can't find any info on it from the internet. >> >> It has a date code of 1989 and was built in Yokahama Japan, by who I >> don't know. >> >> Does anyone know who DEC had build there CRT monitors back then? Are >> schematics available? >> > I have a VR297-D3 which is actually a Sony GDM-1602. These details > are written on the label on the back of my monitor though so I guess > they aren't on yours. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. I went and looked again.? Hoped to find some other numbers, besides the UL and SA numbers I noticed a script S followed by CM 25100M. This is a high resolution black/white monochrome 15 inch monitor from 1989.? I think that was the cat's meow back then.? It was the low end of the DEC monitors available for the Vax Stations.?? I opened it up last year and it is built like a tank, don't remember any obvious OEM logos. Doug From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 17 16:50:01 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 14:50:01 -0800 Subject: EmuVR & videogames & monitors... In-Reply-To: <20190117205758.GB20103@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20190117180426.GA20103@tau1.ceti.pl> <618d73f9-0e98-5eb9-05e6-28d4e12d0b44@sydex.com> <20190117205758.GB20103@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <82d86e3c-f92a-38f7-eb01-58698500208b@sydex.com> On 1/17/19 12:57 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 11:29:54AM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/17/19 10:04 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Monolith in a bedroom, anybody? >> >> Speaks of the generation, I guess--a bookcase with no books. > > Just in case you have just judged me: if I post a link it really only > means I notice a trend, not that I endorse it. :-) It's interesting, is all--no reflection on you. Maybe paper is obsolete and I'm just behind the times. --Chuck From phil at ultimate.com Thu Jan 17 16:53:02 2019 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 17:53:02 -0500 Subject: seeking punched-card reader in Boston area In-Reply-To: <0f735779-040c-af92-50a6-dc640550a325@mit.edu> References: <0f735779-040c-af92-50a6-dc640550a325@mit.edu> Message-ID: <201901172253.x0HMr2HV036217@ultimate.com> I'm in Arlington (once called West Cambridge) and have an HP 6270A (table top reader w/ RS232 interface) sitting on the floor next to me. The feed roller had disolved into a puddle of goo, which I cleaned up/out and was able to send some cards thru, and see output on the serial port. I've never reconditioned the (large) electrolytics, or replaced the feed roller, but I have some boxes of cards I want to read, so it's on my "to do" list, so this might be an opportunity to solve both our problems (unless you find someone with an already working reader!) Phil From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 17 16:54:45 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 17:54:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: EmuVR & videogames & monitors... Message-ID: <20190117225445.4EFB418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > Maybe paper is obsolete and I'm just behind the times. You and me both... :-) Noel From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Jan 17 17:10:37 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 16:10:37 -0700 Subject: EmuVR & videogames & monitors... In-Reply-To: <20190117225445.4EFB418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190117225445.4EFB418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <244B17DF-F454-4D0A-8C2F-D654B32D5793@avanthar.com> Sent from my iPod On Jan 17, 2019, at 3:54 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> From: Chuck Guzis > >> Maybe paper is obsolete and I'm just behind the times. > > You and me both... :-) > > Noel Paper is an archival medium, I have books that are over 200 years old, and photos that are 170 years old. Zane From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 17 17:20:18 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 18:20:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: EmuVR & videogames & monitors... Message-ID: <20190117232018.AB5EE18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Zane Healy > Paper is an archival medium If you want archival, you really need to go the 'baked clay tablet' approach.. :-) Noel From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 17 19:18:49 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 18:18:49 -0700 Subject: EmuVR & videogames & monitors... In-Reply-To: <20190117232018.AB5EE18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190117232018.AB5EE18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/17/2019 4:20 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Zane Healy > > > Paper is an archival medium > > If you want archival, you really need to go the 'baked clay tablet' approach.. :-) > > Noel Sure, and have Smokey the Bear catch you. I can not think of any real archival medium. Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 17 20:02:42 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 18:02:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: EmuVR & videogames & monitors... In-Reply-To: References: <20190117232018.AB5EE18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: >> > Paper is an archival medium >> If you want archival, you really need to go the 'baked clay tablet' >> approach.. :-) On Thu, 17 Jan 2019, ben via cctalk wrote: > Sure, and have Smokey the Bear catch you. > I can not think of any real archival medium. Ben. Stone tablets hold up for a while. How long should I care about? Any progress on encoding data in DNA? It might go quicker when they realize that the current message is "We apologize for the inconvenience" - DNA From rtomek at ceti.pl Thu Jan 17 20:05:00 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 03:05:00 +0100 Subject: EmuVR & videogames & monitors... In-Reply-To: <82d86e3c-f92a-38f7-eb01-58698500208b@sydex.com> References: <20190117180426.GA20103@tau1.ceti.pl> <618d73f9-0e98-5eb9-05e6-28d4e12d0b44@sydex.com> <20190117205758.GB20103@tau1.ceti.pl> <82d86e3c-f92a-38f7-eb01-58698500208b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20190118020500.GC20103@tau1.ceti.pl> On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 02:50:01PM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/17/19 12:57 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 11:29:54AM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> On 1/17/19 10:04 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>> Monolith in a bedroom, anybody? > >> > >> Speaks of the generation, I guess--a bookcase with no books. > > > > Just in case you have just judged me: if I post a link it really only > > means I notice a trend, not that I endorse it. :-) > > It's interesting, is all--no reflection on you. Maybe paper is obsolete > and I'm just behind the times. Ah, ok then. It would not have been a big deal if I was judged but I needed to know. O yeah, new shiny colorful tech. Supported by people who are a bit indifferent to potential problems from using it. So we come to times when thousands of websites stop loading because they all depend on piece of code sitting on a server in Antarctic and guess what, the iceberg... Or let's wire anything bigger than matchbox to the net. Crazy f*ers. If it sounds like I am overtone, it might be because I can anticipate (or read a bit). I guess many of them count on running away before their junk hits the fan - but nowadays, fans are everywhere and crazies are playing with those, too. Knowing they will always be under somebody's fan soothes me like hell. Speaking of paper, I would love to have more of it but my space is really limited at the moment, my library is spilling over despite weighting only about two metric tons. I had to slow down buying. I resigned subscribing a mag with 100-page-no-equations-monthly and replaced with 20-pages-equations-and-real-puzzles, replaced another 100-pager with pdf of the same. Paper is cool, hardly obsolete. I would like to learn making my own, one day. But I do not really buy much into this "love smell of paper and print". It simply is very practical thing, which is why I like it (taking notes, working with multiple books etc). OTOH, if I want to read a book and can get it from gutenberg or wikisources (or bitsavers :-) ), I get it onto my reader. This way, I can increase my small library many folds with books which I would hardly be able to buy anyway. Which is good. I can learn a lot from so called obsoleted tech but I welcome opportunity to use new tech smartly. BTW, me mentioning a monolith in bedroom was about Kubrick's "2001" :-) . BTW2, the way I understand those things, obsolete tech is not so much obsolete as it is inapropriate for majority of people, so they abandon it as soon as they can. There was a thread here about how email is getting obsolete. But the truth is, when email was all the rage there were how many users of it, ten millions? I mean, in mid-1990-ties. And they were majority of all internet users, I guess. But "the majority of them all" was never very much up to writing anything longer. And this have not changed. Only "them all" now are connected, too. But will not want to use email, because in the past they were not willing to write too much either. The talk about "obsolete" might be just marketing. Making impression that they are not wrong. Etc. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 17 23:30:37 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 21:30:37 -0800 Subject: Boxes ready to send, need address confirmation. Message-ID: <4501465d-b6c0-be8e-8fa0-75af7bb3500c@sydex.com> Hi Gene, I have two 35 lb. boxes of magazines ready to go; I just need address confirmation. Thanks, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 17 23:44:41 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 21:44:41 -0800 Subject: Boxes ready to send, need address confirmation. In-Reply-To: <4501465d-b6c0-be8e-8fa0-75af7bb3500c@sydex.com> References: <4501465d-b6c0-be8e-8fa0-75af7bb3500c@sydex.com> Message-ID: Oops, please ignore, wasn't supposed to go to the list. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 18 09:40:29 2019 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 07:40:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi floppy interface. Message-ID: This looks like a project with a ton of potential for archviving media without having to deal with the asshattery of the kryoflux people. https://github.com/picosonic/bbc-fdc g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Fri Jan 18 11:17:35 2019 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 04:17:35 +1100 Subject: seeking punched-card reader in Boston area In-Reply-To: <0f735779-040c-af92-50a6-dc640550a325@mit.edu> References: <0f735779-040c-af92-50a6-dc640550a325@mit.edu> Message-ID: <51E7DFC0-CD45-4754-ADBA-72AD0EA062A6@retrocomputingtasmania.com> > On 18 Jan 2019, at 6:02 am, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone in the Boston area know of a working 80-column > punched-card reader? > I'm working with a researcher at Harvard who's come across some very > interesting election polling data from the 1960 Kennedy-Nixon race, Reminded me that at Harvard University, in the hallway below the impressive IBM ASCC (or Harvard Mark I) https://i.imgur.com/ZQvs9J6.jpg there is a unassuming display case with a DEC card-reader (and a DEC VK100 GiGi too) and a few other things: https://i.imgur.com/0ENhw3H.jpg From iain at csp-partnership.co.uk Fri Jan 18 14:51:50 2019 From: iain at csp-partnership.co.uk (Dr Iain Maoileoin) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 20:51:50 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 52, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5C229A71-6920-4EF8-ABBD-D6820A5FBEDA@csp-partnership.co.uk> I have used Jorgs kit to get my 11/70 front panel running. There is NO NEED to split the cables - for manual circuit, nor is there in the new ?cap? adaptor board. I *THINK* Jorg has many cables and many panels and the split is a throwback to some earlier work that I saw photos of. My (wire wrapped, no using the new ?cape?) is at http://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/DEC/1170/ Flat 40 pins - no split. I have not had time to document the process of the old or new board. All I can say is that the kit turned a messy job into a fairly quick and easy one. I can strongly recommend the kit to anyone. It took me two nights with the circuit list and a wire-wrap tool to set up the board in the link above. Then an elasped day footering with the test software and scope checking signals etc. With the newer 11/70 add on board I would think it would be a painless evening of work. > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 13:45:19 -0500 (EST) > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: "Plug and Play" adapter for PDP-11/70 panel - BlinkenBone > update > Message-ID: <20190117184519.32C6918C0BE at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > >> From: Jorg Hoppe > >> Now you can painlessly plug a physical 11/70 panel > > So I'm curious about the flat cables to the -11/70 console, which have been > taken apart into individual conductors. I am wondering why? > > This doesn't seem to have been done because you needed to re-order them (they > turn back into flat cables before they go into the connectors - although > perhaps you cross-connected a pair of wires)? Easier access to individual > signals for debugging? > > Needless to say, if people who want to build one of these also have to do > this, I wouldn't exactly call it 'painless'! :-) > > Noel From web at loomcom.com Fri Jan 18 18:47:57 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 16:47:57 -0800 Subject: Wanted: AT&T System V Release 3.2.{1,2,3} Source Code Message-ID: <87munxh3r6.fsf@loomcom.com> [Cross-posted from the 3B2 mailing list] Hi folks, I'm in search of source code for AT&T's System V Release 3.2.1, 3.2.2, and/or 3.2.3 for the 3B2. Does this exist? Has anyone ever seen it? Note that I'm not looking for the System V Release 3.2 Source Code Provision for the 3B2 /310 and /400 -- I already have that. It was absolutely invaluable when I was writing my 3B2/400 emulator. The reason I'm so keen on getting access is that I have ROM images from a 3B2/1000, and I'd like to add support for it to my 3B2 emulator. The system board memory map seems a bit different than the /300, /310, and /400. These max out at SVR 3.2. I can't imagine trying to add 3B2/1000 support without the 3.2.x source code. I imagine there's some tape image somewhere that's a delta of files that take you from 3.2 to 3.2.1, 3.2.2 or 3.2.3? -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA, USA web at loomcom.com From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 21:36:33 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 19:36:33 -0800 Subject: Xerox Star emulator (Darkstar) released today Message-ID: Hi All -- Thought you folks might be interested -- I've been working on a Xerox Star emulator at LCM+L on and off over the past year and I've finally unleashed it upon the world.? It's called Darkstar, it's open source and it runs all the Star software I'm aware of.? The Ethernet interface is still mostly untested, however. You can grab the emulator and its source code on our GitHub site here:https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/Darkstar.? Disk images are available on Bitsavers as always.? Thanks to Al for providing a lot of assistance on this project. Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions. Thanks! Josh From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 23:00:00 2019 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 03:00:00 -0200 Subject: Xerox Star emulator (Darkstar) released today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow! Thanks for your efforts! I always wanted to fiddle with a Xerox Star =D ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com http://www.tabalabs.com.br ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- Em s?b, 19 de jan de 2019 ?s 01:36, Josh Dersch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu: > Hi All -- > > Thought you folks might be interested -- I've been working on a Xerox > Star emulator at LCM+L on and off over the past year and I've finally > unleashed it upon the world. It's called Darkstar, it's open source and > it runs all the Star software I'm aware of. The Ethernet interface is > still mostly untested, however. > > You can grab the emulator and its source code on our GitHub site > here:https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/Darkstar. Disk images are > available on Bitsavers as always. Thanks to Al for providing a lot of > assistance on this project. > > Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions. > > Thanks! > > Josh > > From ray.arachelian at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 16:05:14 2019 From: ray.arachelian at gmail.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 17:05:14 -0500 Subject: Free: SGI Indigo R4k (NYC area) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <884977f2-0518-54fc-09e0-843a9531a2e4@gmail.com> I'm out on Long Island, if they not gone, I'd be interested in picking up one. On 01/14/19 10:23, kk via cctalk wrote: > Hi - I am making some room. I have a two SGI Indigos. One of them is a R4K. > The second may be a r3k, but may be a r4k as well (I wont get a chance to > check til the evening). > > Both will have ram/cpu/graphics/sled. If youre local, come and get them. > > If no takers locally, I will ship for cost of shipping (but I wont get a > real chance to do this for a week or 2, if not longer). > > Ping me if youre interested, thanks. > From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jan 19 03:57:20 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 10:57:20 +0100 Subject: How to refurbish plotter pens? In-Reply-To: <8ea76303-b041-b8e8-b463-b54a6301eb39@hachti.de> References: <763471ae-f2c3-c715-5759-efac76d5522d@hachti.de> <20170422132132.GA16178@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <8ea76303-b041-b8e8-b463-b54a6301eb39@hachti.de> Message-ID: It has been almost two years since I visited this topic. But just before christmas i got around doing something about it. I interfaced it to the PDP-11/05 using an XY11 board. It seems to be very little information on the XY11 board saved. At least I didn't find anything. But the board is a quite simple dual module so I made a schematic of the circuit and then got the understanding how it should be connected to the plotter and how it should be programmed. Created a quick program for the PDP-11 and tested it. It worked just fine but then the problem was the pens. All my pens were obviously dry. Refurbish a pen seems to be impossible. The type of ink used is quite thick and I couldn't figure out how to get it into the ball point pens. Even though it was possible to clean them reasonably well using an ultrasonic cleaner there was no way I could get the ink in there. The other option is to find compatible pens. I searched google for pen refills with dimensions that would fit but couldn't find matching pens to modify and use. So I concluded that the best option is to make a new pen holder plunger which could take standard ball point refill. The Pilot BRFV-10M seemed to be very common refill and would probably work well if I had another pen holder. I asked around and found a guy with a lathe that made one for me. Unfortunately it wasn't working immediately. I hadn't thought of certain mechanical properties of the mechanism. Essentially it is two parts. The pen holder plunger itself and a small plastic part to insert into the cut off ball point refill. This latter part will reduce the exterior diameter of the pen from 4 mm to 3.2 mm so it will work with the spring in the lid. It also has a small 1 mm hole in it to let air through. Then I had a problem that the pen stayed in the up position. Most likely held by some kind of remaining magnetism that could withstand the force of the spring. A couple of M3 washers was used to reduce the contact area between the pen holder plunger and the top lid which made it work. http://i.imgur.com/PRGUa9U.jpg And in action: https://i.makeagif.com/save/QCDG_W controlled by a quick and dirty PDP-11 program : https://github.com/MattisLind/pdp11-plot Next is to draw some nice things on the plotter. Den m?n 24 apr. 2017 kl 06:59 skrev Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > > > On 22.04.2017 15:21, David Gesswein via cctech wrote: > > Felt tip was also available. > > picture here http://ferretronix.com/1627/ > > Wow, great page! I think I also have the felt tip metal thing somewhere. > I have to find that plastic box with Calcomp stuff again....! > > From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Jan 19 07:52:25 2019 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 08:52:25 -0500 Subject: How to refurbish plotter pens? In-Reply-To: References: <763471ae-f2c3-c715-5759-efac76d5522d@hachti.de> <20170422132132.GA16178@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <8ea76303-b041-b8e8-b463-b54a6301eb39@hachti.de> Message-ID: On 2019-01-19 04:57, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > So I concluded that the best option is to make a new pen holder plunger > which could take standard ball point refill. The Pilot BRFV-10M seemed to > be very common refill and would probably work well if I had another pen > holder. I asked around and found a guy with a lathe that made one for me. > Unfortunately it wasn't working immediately. I hadn't thought of certain > mechanical properties of the mechanism. I did something like that 20 years ago for my HP plotters. Back then, I found some ball points, which had a pressurized cartridge, so you could draw pretty quick lines ;-) Yes, I did it with an aluminum holder, today, I would probably ask somebody to 3d print some plastic piece, to reduce the weight of the moving part > Then I had a problem that the pen stayed in the up position. Most likely > held by some kind of remaining magnetism that could withstand the force of > the spring. A couple of M3 washers was used to reduce the contact area > between the pen holder plunger and the top lid which made it work. > > http://i.imgur.com/PRGUa9U.jpg You're not planing on getting this through TSA? ;-) > And in action: > > https://i.makeagif.com/save/QCDG_W Pretty COOL !!! > controlled by a quick and dirty PDP-11 program : > https://github.com/MattisLind/pdp11-plot One day I have to set up gcc for my pdp11 ... Cheers! From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 19 10:31:19 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 10:31:19 -0600 Subject: How to refurbish plotter pens? In-Reply-To: References: <763471ae-f2c3-c715-5759-efac76d5522d@hachti.de> <20170422132132.GA16178@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <8ea76303-b041-b8e8-b463-b54a6301eb39@hachti.de> Message-ID: <5C4350D7.5040703@pico-systems.com> On 01/19/2019 03:57 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > > All my pens were obviously dry. Refurbish a pen seems to be impossible. Well, leaving them in alcohol for a few days seems to slowly seep in and soften the dried ink. Most have hair-thin wires that run down through the pen "needle" and these will break if too much force is applied. Once the ink softens enough to allow the weight to be pulled out safely, then the pen can be cleaned more easily. An ultrasonic cleaner helps a lot with this. But, I have to admit, my success rate is no better than 50% (but I don't have an ultrasonic cleaner.) Jon From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jan 19 12:57:36 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 11:57:36 -0700 Subject: DEC Rainbow / Pro video on VGA monitors? Message-ID: Greetings, I'm trying to find a way to get my DEC Rainbow's monochrome output onto a newer monitor than my aging VR201 (especially since I zapped something in it and my diagnostic efforts to date haven't fixed it). So, I found the bit in the Rainbow docs that said the output was DC Coupled RS-170 signals and to convert to RS-170 (NTSC black and white) I needed to put a 10uF cap inline to make it RS-170. So I did this, and fed it into a generic NTSC composite video to VGA thing, and got only a little joy. The first few lines seem to be missing, then the next few are OK and then nothing else. I tried to google this, but found nothing. My google foo has failed me. Does anybody else have a working setup? Warner From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jan 19 15:17:10 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 13:17:10 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <20190114172528.2A82318C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190114172528.2A82318C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <27E7E962-933F-4370-87BC-6A4314843715@fritzm.org> Happy weekend, all! Latest updates on this issue: Identified and replaced a faulty 4116 DRAM (E204) on my MS11-L. After this, my small hand-rolled standalone diagnostic passes the full 256K. I'll post my diagnostic source over on my blog soon. After this repair, tried MAINDEC ZQMC, called out as the appropriate diagnostic by the MS11-L docs. This was interesting... First, it would barely run at all unless I disabled parity checking with front panel switch settings. Second, it flagged a bunch of memory locations that weren't reported by my much simpler diagnostic (which only does all-ones/all-zeros passes looking for stuck bits at this point.) The MAINDEC memory diagnostic is bulky and complicated, and it takes several minutes to re-download it after a power cycle, so it's not exactly convenient to use while troubleshooting. I'll probably be beefing up my smaller diagnostic with a few more tests (including parity). Went ahead and tried both RSTS and Unix again after the above repair, and saw the same fault behaviors from both (sadness). Oh well, not there yet... So, smokiest gun I have right now is the parity issue. Could be I still have a bad DRAM on my MS11 in one of the parity banks... I tried enabling trap on parity error in the MS11 CSR before running my diagnostic, but it didn't trap, even though it did flag parity error(s) in the CSR. So maybe I *also* have a bug I haven't yet addressed in parity handling within CPU. I realized there is a MAINDEC specifically for this (CKBR) which I had previously overlooked. May give that a look today. Also, parity is one significant difference between SIMH and my real hardware: SIMH emulates a memory system with no parity hardware. Looking into the parity issue some last night has raised a few questions: - There is a lot of inconsistent and incomplete information in the documentation about memory CSRs. They appear to come in different flavors depending on memory hardware; some of the earlier ones support setting a bit to determine whether parity errors will halt or trap the CPU, while some of the later ones (like my MS11-L) simply have "enable" and don't distinguish between halt and trap. I'm curious how OS init code sniffs out what memory CSRs there are, determines their specific flavors and, in a heterogeneous system, determines how much address space is under the auspice of each CSR? Maybe Paul and Noel can comment here wrt. RSTS and Unix respectively? - The 11/45 prints show a jumper (W1, lower left of sheet UBCB) that looks like it would entirely disable Unibus parity error detection if removed. This was an obvious thing to check, but when I pulled and examined my UBC board (and also looked over my spare) no such jumper or any associated pads were anywhere to be found! So maybe this was either added/removed from later etches of the UBC? Anybody know more on this? My UBC has required three separate repairs so far in the course of restoring this machine, in order to address various independent issues. Now we may now be coming up on #4... Based also on the rat's nest of green wires on these boards and the frustrated-looking engineer scrawl *all* over this page of the prints, the UBC really is the heart of darkness of the KB11-A :-) cheers, --FritzM. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 19 15:38:16 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 16:38:16 -0500 Subject: DEC Rainbow / Pro video on VGA monitors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jan 19, 2019, at 1:57 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > Greetings, > > I'm trying to find a way to get my DEC Rainbow's monochrome output onto a > newer monitor than my aging VR201 (especially since I zapped something in > it and my diagnostic efforts to date haven't fixed it). > > So, I found the bit in the Rainbow docs that said the output was DC Coupled > RS-170 signals and to convert to RS-170 (NTSC black and white) I needed to > put a 10uF cap inline to make it RS-170. So I did this, and fed it into a > generic NTSC composite video to VGA thing, and got only a little joy. The > first few lines seem to be missing, then the next few are OK and then > nothing else. I'd be interested in the answer also, for my Pro. What device do you use for NTSC to VGA conversion? paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 19 16:03:37 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 17:03:37 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <27E7E962-933F-4370-87BC-6A4314843715@fritzm.org> References: <20190114172528.2A82318C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <27E7E962-933F-4370-87BC-6A4314843715@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <12394FEE-B3D9-48F4-88A4-0CA9D52106E7@comcast.net> > On Jan 19, 2019, at 4:17 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > ... > Looking into the parity issue some last night has raised a few questions: > > - There is a lot of inconsistent and incomplete information in the documentation about memory CSRs. They appear to come in different flavors depending on memory hardware; some of the earlier ones support setting a bit to determine whether parity errors will halt or trap the CPU, while some of the later ones (like my MS11-L) simply have "enable" and don't distinguish between halt and trap. I'm curious how OS init code sniffs out what memory CSRs there are, determines their specific flavors and, in a heterogeneous system, determines how much address space is under the auspice of each CSR? Maybe Paul and Noel can comment here wrt. RSTS and Unix respectively? I know essentially nothing about memory parity handling, but I quickly skimmed some RSTS INIT code (for V10.1). Two things observed: 1. At boot, INIT determines the memory layout. It does this by writing 0 then -2 into each location to see if it works. If it gets an NXM trap (trap to 4) or a parity trap (trap to 114) it calls that 1kW block of memory non-existent. For the case of a parity error, it tells you that it saw a parity error and is disabling that block for that reason. 2. In the DEFAULT option (curiously enough) there is a routine that looks for up to 16 parity CSRs starting at 172100. This happens on entry to the memory layout option. You can display what it finds by using the PARITY command in response to the "Table suboption" prompt. It checks if the bits 007750 are active in the parity CSR, if so it takes that to be an address/ECC parity CSR. It figures out the CSR to memory association by going through memory in 1 kW increments, writing 3, 5 to the first 2 words, then setting "write wrong parity" in each CSR (007044), then doing BIC #3,.. BIC #5,... to those two test words, then reading them both back. This should set bad parity, and it scans all the CSRs to see which one reports an error (top bit in the CSR). If no CSR has that set, it concludes the particular block is no-parity memory. I probably got some of the details wrong, the above is from a fast skim of the code, but hopefully it will get you started. Good to hear you're making progress with the hardware debug! paul From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jan 19 17:51:28 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 16:51:28 -0700 Subject: DEC Rainbow / Pro video on VGA monitors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 19, 2019 at 2:38 PM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Jan 19, 2019, at 1:57 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Greetings, > > > > I'm trying to find a way to get my DEC Rainbow's monochrome output onto a > > newer monitor than my aging VR201 (especially since I zapped something in > > it and my diagnostic efforts to date haven't fixed it). > > > > So, I found the bit in the Rainbow docs that said the output was DC > Coupled > > RS-170 signals and to convert to RS-170 (NTSC black and white) I needed > to > > put a 10uF cap inline to make it RS-170. So I did this, and fed it into a > > generic NTSC composite video to VGA thing, and got only a little joy. The > > first few lines seem to be missing, then the next few are OK and then > > nothing else. > > I'd be interested in the answer also, for my Pro. > > What device do you use for NTSC to VGA conversion? > I'm using https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00M4JY722/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and it's the one that's not working. Look to be dozens of clones of this though.. My NTSC camera works with it.. Warner From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 19 17:58:51 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 15:58:51 -0800 Subject: Houston stash sorting this coming Saturday In-Reply-To: <059a01d4ac3e$3b870040$b29500c0$@com> References: <059a01d4ac3e$3b870040$b29500c0$@com> Message-ID: On 1/14/19 11:20 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > The 2 sheds will be sorted next Saturday morning, early, in Katy, TX. Did this end up happening? I've not seen any postings or updates. From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sat Jan 19 19:52:43 2019 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 17:52:43 -0800 Subject: VCF PNW 2019: Exhibitors (still) needed! Message-ID: This is not quite last call, but it is getting close ... We have 16 exhibits so far and we need a few more to make the show work. (20 would be nice, 25 would be ideal.) The event is March 23-24th in Seattle. Soon I'm going to start working on the exhibit floor plan, set the event schedule, and start to do the prep work that makes the show possible. But I need to know who is participating before I get too deep into that. If you know you are definitely going to participate then please help me out and formally register. If you have questions or are on the fence then let me know and I'll try to help you decide. Maybe this is not the right year for you, and that's fine ... but if there is something I can help you with let me know. I'm not fussy but if you can exhibit Commodore 8 bitters or Amiga equipment then I really want to talk to you. :-) (We seem to have a gap in the show there. Amazingly, nobody is doing an IBM PC related exhibit either.) A description of the event can be found at http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw . General information for exhibitors including pictures from last year, a link to the registration form, and a FAQ can be found at http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-pnw-exhibitor-registration/ . Thanks, Mike mbbrutman at brutman.com or michael at vcfed.org From scott at kevill.com Sat Jan 19 23:09:55 2019 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 13:09:55 +0800 Subject: Xerox Star emulator (Darkstar) released today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Josh didn't mention this, and I didn't see it linked on the GitHub repo, but he's also written a fantastic intro article about it here: https://engblg.livingcomputers.org/index.php/2019/01/19/introducing-darkstar-a-xerox-star-emulator/ Covers some of the Xerox Star's history, challenges of the emulation development process, photos, diagrams, and screenshots of it in action. Highly recommended! (even if you're not that familiar with the Xerox Star) Scott. On 19/01/2019, at 11:36 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hi All -- > > Thought you folks might be interested -- I've been working on a Xerox Star emulator at LCM+L on and off over the past year and I've finally unleashed it upon the world. It's called Darkstar, it's open source and it runs all the Star software I'm aware of. The Ethernet interface is still mostly untested, however. > > You can grab the emulator and its source code on our GitHub site here:https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/Darkstar. Disk images are available on Bitsavers as always. Thanks to Al for providing a lot of assistance on this project. > > Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions. > > Thanks! > > Josh > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 01:44:37 2019 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 23:44:37 -0800 Subject: Xerox Star emulator (Darkstar) released today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85227CEB-5FAC-4E7D-9D07-54A665D6D334@gmail.com> Just wow. Congrats Josh. Marc > On Jan 19, 2019, at 9:09 PM, Scott Kevill via cctalk wrote: > > Josh didn't mention this, and I didn't see it linked on the GitHub repo, but he's also written a fantastic intro article about it here: > > https://engblg.livingcomputers.org/index.php/2019/01/19/introducing-darkstar-a-xerox-star-emulator/ > > Covers some of the Xerox Star's history, challenges of the emulation development process, photos, diagrams, and screenshots of it in action. > > Highly recommended! > > (even if you're not that familiar with the Xerox Star) > > Scott. > >> On 19/01/2019, at 11:36 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hi All -- >> >> Thought you folks might be interested -- I've been working on a Xerox Star emulator at LCM+L on and off over the past year and I've finally unleashed it upon the world. It's called Darkstar, it's open source and it runs all the Star software I'm aware of. The Ethernet interface is still mostly untested, however. >> >> You can grab the emulator and its source code on our GitHub site here:https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/Darkstar. Disk images are available on Bitsavers as always. Thanks to Al for providing a lot of assistance on this project. >> >> Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Josh >> > From oldthingswantednow at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 00:50:41 2019 From: oldthingswantednow at gmail.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 00:50:41 -0600 Subject: Houston stash Message-ID: It did happen, but I had to leave before they got to the 2nd shed, and I was not able to upload anything onsite. Please see https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=20593&e=1&view=unread#unread and https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Kw9caNwgBhlP-FMfQo9jsuTMeE2n0vd8?usp=sharing From alan at alanlee.org Sun Jan 20 07:28:18 2019 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 08:28:18 -0500 Subject: Houston stash In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82205351b2ed3b18bb991e2038f6699d@alanlee.org> Nice System/36 & 5250. On 2019-01-20 01:50, Cindy Croxton via cctalk wrote: > It did happen, but I had to leave before they got to the 2nd shed, and > I > was not able to upload anything onsite. Please see > https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=20593&e=1&view=unread#unread > and > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Kw9caNwgBhlP-FMfQo9jsuTMeE2n0vd8?usp=sharing From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 20 08:55:28 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 09:55:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190120145528.6949E18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > it flagged a bunch of memory locations that weren't reported by my much > simpler diagnostic (which only does all-ones/all-zeros passes looking for > stuck bits at this point.) What is is complaining about? > The MAINDEC memory diagnostic is bulky and complicated, and it takes > several minutes to re-download it after a power cycle, so it's not > exactly convenient to use while troubleshooting. Would it be possible to put it on a disk and boot it from there? If it's in some documented format (e.g. .LDA), I can easily produce a Unix disk with it on, if that would help (although loading the image onto the physical pack would take forever, I guess - although you could let it run overnight). It's probably not worth trying to devise a way to load individual files onto a Unix disk over the serial line until Unix is working reliably, so the program can run under Unix (otherwise a stand-alone program would have to include file-system code). > I'll probably be beefing up my smaller diagnostic with a few more tests > (including parity). One of the first things to add is to store each location's address in it during a set-up pass, and check to see that it's still there during the checking pass. > Went ahead and tried both RSTS and Unix again after the above repair, > and saw the same fault behaviors from both (sadness). Yeah, sounds like you still have memory issues (per the diagnostic grumping). > I tried enabling trap on parity error in the MS11 CSR before running my > diagnostic, but it didn't trap, even though it did flag parity error(s) > in the CSR. So maybe I *also* have a bug I haven't yet addressed in > parity handling within CPU. Starting the CPU (i.e. 'START' switch) or an INIT instruction will clear the 'trap enable' bit in the MS11-L CSR. I'd modify your program to set it, and check to see if you're getting parity error traps. (Clearly, if that hardware - either in the MS11-L, or the CPU - isn't working you need to look at that first.) > some of the earlier ones support setting a bit to determine whether > parity errors will halt or trap the CPU Huh? I was just looking at parity in the MM11-L and MM11-U (to see if parity needed to be enabled on them, or if it's always on by default), and I didn't see that. Also, there's no way I know of, on the UNIBUS, for anything to halt the CPU (the QBUS has such as line, but not the UNIBUS). Which memory has this feature? > I'm curious how OS init code sniffs out what memory CSRs there are, > determines their specific flavors and, in a heterogeneous system, > determines how much address space is under the auspice of each CSR? Unix V6 does nothing at all with parity (doesn't enable it in memory modules, although the memory that was extant at the time - MM11-S, MM11-U, etc - did support it as an option). If one turned it on, the code _would_ catch the trap and 'panic' (print a message and halt operation). It would be pretty easy to modify the code to send a signal to the process if it happened in User mode. I'm not sure there's much to be done if it happens in Kernel mode. V6 sizes memory by doing a read every 0100 bytes (of the xxxx00 byte), looking for success or a trap. If that succeeds, it clears the 32. sequential words starting at that address, and then tries the next 0100. (So if you modified the code to enable parity traps, you wouldn't hsave to deal with bad parity left over from random contents at power-on....) > The 11/45 prints show a jumper (W1, lower left of sheet UBCB) that > looks like it would entirely disable Unibus parity error detection if > removed. Yup, that's what it looks like to me too.. > when I pulled and examined my UBC board (and also looked over my spare) > no such jumper or any associated pads were anywhere to be found! So maybe > this was either added/removed from later etches of the UBC? Well, if you have an M8106, you do have a KB11-A; in the later /45 CPU, the KB11-D, that has been replaced by the M8119 - but that still has W1! (The KB11-D prints are in MP00039, 11/55 Vol 1.) I looked on my M8119, and W1 is indeed there - it's a 0-ohm 'resistor' (single black band) just less than half-way up the 4th column of chips, with a '1' next to it in the etch. The M8106 board layout drawing (a couple of pages back from UBCB) does show W1 - upper left corner of the board, next to E84. Noel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Jan 20 09:20:22 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 15:20:22 +0000 Subject: VXT2000+ Message-ID: Bummer time.... I turned on my VXT2000+ today and after about 5 minutes there was a "pop" and a small puff of smoke from the power supply. No smell like you get from a selenium diode or other semiconductor. Now, the fan tries to run but only twitches and the led blinks slowly. No obvious blown part visible. Does anyone have a service manual for the H7109-B Power Supply? I would really like to fix this but I can't see paying $150-$250 for a replacement. (Actually, if I had that kind of money I would, but I don't!) bill From cctalk at ibmjunkman.com Sun Jan 20 11:30:05 2019 From: cctalk at ibmjunkman.com (cctalk) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 09:30:05 -0800 Subject: 3850 media Message-ID: Original lister has relisted the item https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-3850-media-cartridge-1970s-vintage/123603101597 And now one shows up in the UK. Same photos and description. Very strange. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/113564749573 I have asked why his listing is identical to the other one. :-) From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Jan 20 12:59:35 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 18:59:35 +0000 Subject: 3850 media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/20/19 12:30 PM, cctalk via cctalk wrote: > Original lister has relisted the item > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-3850-media-cartridge-1970s-vintage/123603101597 > > And now one shows up in the UK. Same photos and description. Very strange. > > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/113564749573 > > I have asked why his listing is identical to the other one. :-) > Lots of stuff like that. I looked at a VXT1000 today listed in at least a half dozen different countries ebay sites. I assume ebay allows that. bill From marvin at west.net Sun Jan 20 13:57:23 2019 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 11:57:23 -0800 Subject: DEC Rainbow / Pro video on VGA monitors? Message-ID: > I'm trying to find a way to get my DEC Rainbow's monochrome output onto a > newer monitor than my aging VR201 (especially since I zapped something in > it and my diagnostic efforts to date haven't fixed it). I can't remember the video output on the Rainbow, but I wanted to do something similar to have one setup for the S-100 machines. After looking on eBay (before I banned them from my use), I found a device that basically had RCA audio/video inputs with a VGA output. It also had the advantage of having an analog TV tuner built in so I could also use things like the old video games that had the Channel 3/4 output. The device is buried somewhere so I can't tell you the brand. From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Jan 20 14:56:51 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 12:56:51 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <20190120145528.6949E18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190120145528.6949E18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4AE2184D-0C06-4E6E-A80F-01C6A3AEF040@fritzm.org> Thanks, Paul and Noel, for the detailed responses per usual! > On Jan 20, 2019, at 6:55 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > What is [MAINDEC ZQMC] complaining about? Looks like a few more flaky bits in a couple of additional banks. For those reading along who may be unfamiliar with the MS11-L, it is laid out as 8 physical banks, each containing 18 16K x 1 DRAMS (16 data + 2 parity bits per word. So a flaky bit in a physical bank implicates one particular chip. > Would it be possible to put [ZQMC] on a disk and boot it from there? I have thought about that... The most efficient way I think would be to work up a simple LDA loader that would fit in a boot sector, and load a diagnostic from contiguous disk starting at the second sector. It would then be easy to blast down just the boot sector and a single desired diagnostic without imaging an entire pack. > One of the first things to add [to custom diagnostic] is to store each location's address in it during a set-up pass, and check to see that it's still there during the checking pass. I did this last night, actually. I also added a "random" bits test that uses the program image itself as a source sequence for words to write/compare. The good news is that my enhanced diagnostics now detect failures in the same physical banks and with the same bits as those flagged by the MAINDEC diagnostic. This was a good lesson learned: all ones / all zeros is definitely not good enough when checking this sort of thing! Another thing I found interesting, though, is that the "random" test *also* found a malfunctioning bit that the address test had missed. So ones/zeros and address isn't really good enough, either. I'm technically curious, now, about the failure modes of these sorts of DRAMS. I guess in addition to stuck bits, there are also potential decode fails (show up on address test, but not ones/zeros) and some errors that have history-dependence, perhaps internal latches (show up on random data test, but not address or ones/zeros.) I'd guess also there might be potential for crosstalk, noise, and "fading bit" type issues as well? Will have to see after I make the next round of repairs if there are still additional problems that the MAINDEC flags that my simplistic diag isn't shaking out. I've also been somewhat surprised by the level of repair needed on this memory board. So far, I've seen 6 failed 4116 out of an array of 144 total, so about a 4% failure rate. Is this typical for vintage 4116, or did somebody leave my poor MS11 out in a lightning storm? :-) > Starting the CPU (i.e. 'START' switch) or an INIT instruction will clear > the 'trap enable' bit in the MS11-L CSR. D'oh! Yes, thanks; I may very well have mucked that up. I'll give it another try with a little more care later today. > Which memory has this [parity halt vs trap] feature? Hmm, I saw this at least once when researching the variety of CSR formats yesterday morning; I'll have to see if I can dig it up again today. Might be just a fastbus thing? It's also hinted in paragraph 7.7.7 of the older KB11-A maintenance manual (NOT the later edition that covers both KB11-A and KB11-D): "The semiconductor memory control EHA and EHB (enable halt) flip-flops may be set under program control to assert SMCB PE HALT L if a parity error is detected. This input also asserts UBCB PARITY ERR SET L, which set the console flag and halts the CPU." This particular text is removed from the later KB11-A,D maintenance manual, and the description there seems to imply all reported parity conditions trap directly to 114. But there aren't any details in this section concerning processor revision/version etc. The logic design around all this is a bit complicated, and the fact that there are apparent discrepancies between the texts, available prints, and the actual M8106 boards I have on hand is not heartening! > The M8106 board layout drawing (a couple of pages back from UBCB) does show W1 - > upper left corner of the board, next to E84. Yup. And, surprisingly, neither one of my M8106 has either a jumper or the indicated pull-up at that location! I'll try to send a pic later. The fact that W1 exists on the M8119 is interesting; maybe the situation is that the prints are for later revisions, and my actual M8106 are earlier? My /45 is a very early one -- serial 154! cheers, --FritzM. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 20 15:29:09 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 16:29:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190120212909.52DF718C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > It checks if the bits 007750 are active in the parity CSR, if so it > takes that to be an address/ECC parity CSR. That's odd; those are the 'error address' bits. Maybe there's an assumption that the sweep of memory to size it will have caused a parity error from garbage in DRAM at startup? (If so, I wonder if it would work on a machine with all core? :-) > It figures out the CSR to memory association by going through memory in > 1 kW increments ... This should set bad parity, and it scans all the > CSRs to see which one reports an error ... If no CSR has that set, it > concludes the particular block is no-parity memory. Oooh, pretty clever - good workaround for rhe undefined relationship between CSR's and memory. If I added parity support to V6, I'd be tempted to do it with a hand-configured table - devices are all manually configured anyway in V6, so I'd be continuing a theme... :-) Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jan 20 15:45:51 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 16:45:51 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <20190120212909.52DF718C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190120212909.52DF718C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <253B8686-B21F-458B-8A60-6C82DAF15202@comcast.net> > On Jan 20, 2019, at 4:29 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> It checks if the bits 007750 are active in the parity CSR, if so it >> takes that to be an address/ECC parity CSR. > > That's odd; those are the 'error address' bits. Maybe there's an assumption > that the sweep of memory to size it will have caused a parity error from > garbage in DRAM at startup? (If so, I wonder if it would work on a machine > with all core? :-) No, what I meant is that it distinguishes between parity memory that reports the failing address, vs. parity memory that only reports there is something wrong. To do that, it tests whether those bits exist. If yes, then this is "address" type parity memory. paul From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Jan 20 15:47:06 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 13:47:06 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <4AE2184D-0C06-4E6E-A80F-01C6A3AEF040@fritzm.org> References: <20190120145528.6949E18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4AE2184D-0C06-4E6E-A80F-01C6A3AEF040@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <6D5C71C8-E0D7-41A1-A59B-8AAE920B4BD8@fritzm.org> Some further info on the parity halt/trap thing: Digging again this morning for what I saw yesterday, it does look like it's a MS11 fastbus thing. The EHA/EHB bits are described in the Jan 1973 version of the 11/45 MS11 maintenance manual (table 3-12, describing the parity register), but they have been scrubbed out by the time of the Jan 1974 printing of the same manual! Somewhere yesterday I saw an actual register layout drawing that had these bits, but I'm not able to find it again this afternoon so far... --FritzM. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jan 20 15:48:32 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 16:48:32 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <4AE2184D-0C06-4E6E-A80F-01C6A3AEF040@fritzm.org> References: <20190120145528.6949E18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4AE2184D-0C06-4E6E-A80F-01C6A3AEF040@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <7FB7E554-2C84-4CE1-8B8F-F37ED51A1BBD@comcast.net> > On Jan 20, 2019, at 3:56 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I'm technically curious, now, about the failure modes of these sorts of DRAMS. I guess in addition to stuck bits, there are also potential decode fails (show up on address test, but not ones/zeros) and some errors that have history-dependence, perhaps internal latches (show up on random data test, but not address or ones/zeros.) I'd guess also there might be potential for crosstalk, noise, and "fading bit" type issues as well? Will have to see after I make the next round of repairs if there are still additional problems that the MAINDEC flags that my simplistic diag isn't shaking out. There are tests for crosstalk and decode problems, they may be marked as core memory tests but they might work anyway. There is the "no duplicate address test" which verifies that each word is accessed by exactly one address value. That would catch decode issues -- for example, a stuck address bit or a stuck decoder would be caught quickly. Not quite crosstalk, but there is the famous "core heating test" which hammers on a specific set of addresses which are near each other in the core mat, to see if the heat generated by those rapid accesses in a small physical area cause trouble. paul From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 15:55:52 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 16:55:52 -0500 Subject: WTB: Looking for several Intel manuals Message-ID: All, I'm looking for hardcopy of: * Intel MCS-80 System Design Kit User's Guide * Intel MCS-8 Manual (8008) * Intel PROMPT-48 Microcomputer User's Manual I've got PDFs of these, but I like original dead tree format when I can find it. Thanks, Jonathan From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Jan 20 16:03:31 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 14:03:31 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <6D5C71C8-E0D7-41A1-A59B-8AAE920B4BD8@fritzm.org> References: <20190120145528.6949E18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4AE2184D-0C06-4E6E-A80F-01C6A3AEF040@fritzm.org> <6D5C71C8-E0D7-41A1-A59B-8AAE920B4BD8@fritzm.org> Message-ID: Further archeology has led me to the "PDP-11/45, 11/50 MOS Memory Troublshooting Guide", the cover letter of which is quite amusing: "...COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL, that is take [this guide] on site but do not let the customer read it." "Please do not send these to the Depot for repair!! Instead send them to me with all the necessary paper work." "This cover letter should not be kept with the guide; ..." Oops on that last one :-) Somebody's job was on the line here one would guess. This document is also great for have the most information compiled in on place that I've been able to find so far on 11/45 ECOs! I've had a tough time trying to track those down -- they don't seem to be included among the DEC-O-LOGs archived in the usual places, and I haven't found anybody yet who has fiches or such containing them. --FritzM. From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jan 20 16:16:19 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 15:16:19 -0700 Subject: DEC Rainbow / Pro video on VGA monitors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 12:57 PM Marvin Johnston via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I'm trying to find a way to get my DEC Rainbow's monochrome output onto a > > newer monitor than my aging VR201 (especially since I zapped something in > > it and my diagnostic efforts to date haven't fixed it). > > I can't remember the video output on the Rainbow, but I wanted to do > something similar to have one setup for the S-100 machines. After > looking on eBay (before I banned them from my use), I found a device > that basically had RCA audio/video inputs with a VGA output. It also had > the advantage of having an analog TV tuner built in so I could also use > things like the old video games that had the Channel 3/4 output. > > The device is buried somewhere so I can't tell you the brand. > Yea. I'm going to order one or two others to see if I can get them to work... The TRB says: 4.4.8.14 Composite Video Signal Characteristics The composite video output provides a compatible EIA RS-170 output generated by combining the video signal with a composite sync signal. NOTE The use of dc coupling is not in strict agreement with the EIA RS-170 standard. To agree with RS170, the video generator output load would require a 10 microfarad capacitor in series with the output. Without the capacitor, the RS-170 2 milliamp dc short circuit requirement is violated. The composite video output has the following nominal characteristics: I. Output impedance = 75 ohms, dc coupled to 0.0 V 2. Sync level = 0.0 V 3. Reference black level = approximately 0.3 V with a 75 ohm load 4. Reference white level = approximately 1.0 V with a 75 ohm load 5. The composite sync waveform conforms to EIA RS-170 standards. The vertical interval is composed of six equalizing pulses, six vertical sync pulses, and six more equalizing pulses. The timing is as follows: Equalizing pulse width = 2.33us +/- 50ns Vertical pulse width = 27.28us +/- 200ns Horizontal pulse width = 4.71us +/- 50ns Horizontal blank width = 11.84us +/- 50ns (80-column mode) = 12.34us +/- 50ns (132-column mode) Front porch 1.54us +/- 50ns This differs a little from what I've found online for RS-170 timings: Reference Black = 0.075V White = 1.00V Sync = -0.40V in some places but seems to correspond to the pics at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_video almost exactly. So I'm confused. But I've seen other numbers as well. And the timings are roughly consistent with the envelops suggested in an old terribly scanned doc from the 80's that talks about video formats... Anyway, video formats always proliferate into a cluster of almost the same standards and it's hard to know what, exactly, to call them... I'm not sure if this helped, or not :( Warner From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 20 16:58:36 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 17:58:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem Message-ID: <20190120225836.1364E18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > The most efficient way I think would be to work up a simple LDA loader > that would fit in a boot sector, and load a diagnostic from contiguous > disk starting at the second sector. It would then be easy to blast down > just the boot sector and a single desired diagnostic Yup, an .LDA loader wouldn't be hard. > The good news is that my enhanced diagnostics now detect failures in > the same physical banks and with the same bits Excellent! I imagine you're busy with a soldering iron at this moment? :-) Once those are fixed, it will be interesting to see if the problems you saw with the OS's go away. It'd be easy to hack V6 to turn on parity error detection, if you'd like to. > Will have to see after I make the next round of repairs if there are > still additional problems that the MAINDEC flags that my simplistic diag > isn't shaking out. It will be interesting to hear those results... > I've also been somewhat surprised by the level of repair needed on this > memory board. So far, I've seen 6 failed 4116 out of an array of 144 > total, so about a 4% failure rate. Is this typical for vintage 4116 I don't know about 4116's, but I've seen a fairly high failure rate on _some_ cards with 256K DRAM's - on one board, a couple of chips totally dead, some others with just _some_ bad bits. Other cards were totally fine. I suspect it depends on the chip manufacturer. > Might be just a fastbus thing? Could be - I'm not too familiar with the Fastbu. > It's also hinted in paragraph 7.7.7 of the older KB11-A maintenance > manual .. This particular text is removed from the later KB11-A,D > maintenance manual, and the description there seems to imply all reported > parity conditions trap directly to 114. Ah... Looking at the "pdp-11/45 processsor handbook", 1972 and 1973 editions, there's an "Appendix E: Memory Parity" (of which I was previously unaware!), referred to in "2.5.6 Memory Parity". (I haven't checked to see if later ones have it.) It claims there are "16 memory status registers ... each one associated with an 8K section of memory". (It doesn't say whether UNIBUS memory, Fastbus, or both!) One bit in each register claims to be 'Halt Enable': "[when] set, the machine will execute a halt if a parity error occurs"; when clear, it traps to 4! Even better, it claims to be able to control whether the memory uses odd or even parity! (How, for UNIBUS memory, I don't know - there's no way to do this over the UNIBUS. And the MM11-L and MM11-U manuals indicate they both use odd parity, although there's a CSR bit to allow wriring 'wrong' - i.e. even - parity.) Very odd. Maybe this was deleted in the hardware (or they decided not to do it), and someone forgot to follow through in the manual? I recently found another reference to a /45 CPU feature I'd never heard of - forget what it was, alas! > surprisingly, neither one of my M8106 has either a jumper or the > indicated pull-up at that location! .... The fact that W1 exists on the > M8119 is interesting; maybe the situation is that the prints are for > later revisions, and my actual M8106 are earlier? Could be. I wonder if there's any way to get ahold of the ECO list for that card? Noel From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jan 20 17:24:15 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 16:24:15 -0700 Subject: DEC Rainbow / Pro video on VGA monitors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 20, 2019, 4:11 PM Warner Losh As a PS, I connected the real vr201 with a keyboard and got the attached > photo. It looks like there is a one line error about missing keyboard in > the first line when there is no keyboard. Counting out the rows on the boot > screen confirms. So this is much closer than I thought. > The attached photo is actually the video on through the converter. Looks like I left out that sentence, which was kinda important. Warner > > > > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019, 3:16 PM Warner Losh >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 12:57 PM Marvin Johnston via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> > I'm trying to find a way to get my DEC Rainbow's monochrome output >>> onto a >>> > newer monitor than my aging VR201 (especially since I zapped something >>> in >>> > it and my diagnostic efforts to date haven't fixed it). >>> >>> I can't remember the video output on the Rainbow, but I wanted to do >>> something similar to have one setup for the S-100 machines. After >>> looking on eBay (before I banned them from my use), I found a device >>> that basically had RCA audio/video inputs with a VGA output. It also had >>> the advantage of having an analog TV tuner built in so I could also use >>> things like the old video games that had the Channel 3/4 output. >>> >>> The device is buried somewhere so I can't tell you the brand. >>> >> >> Yea. I'm going to order one or two others to see if I can get them to >> work... The TRB says: >> >> 4.4.8.14 Composite Video Signal Characteristics >> The composite video output provides a compatible EIA RS-170 output >> generated by combining the video signal with a composite sync signal. >> >> NOTE The use of dc coupling is not in strict agreement with the EIA >> RS-170 standard. To agree with RS170, the video generator output load would >> require a 10 microfarad capacitor in series with the output. Without the >> capacitor, the RS-170 2 milliamp dc short circuit requirement is violated. >> >> The composite video output has the following nominal characteristics: >> I. Output impedance = 75 ohms, dc coupled to 0.0 V >> 2. Sync level = 0.0 V >> 3. Reference black level = approximately 0.3 V with a 75 ohm load >> 4. Reference white level = approximately 1.0 V with a 75 ohm load >> 5. The composite sync waveform conforms to EIA RS-170 standards. >> >> The vertical interval is composed of six equalizing pulses, six vertical >> sync pulses, and six more equalizing pulses. >> >> The timing is as follows: >> Equalizing pulse width = 2.33us +/- 50ns >> Vertical pulse width = 27.28us +/- 200ns >> Horizontal pulse width = 4.71us +/- 50ns >> Horizontal blank width = 11.84us +/- 50ns (80-column mode) >> = 12.34us +/- 50ns (132-column mode) >> Front porch 1.54us +/- 50ns >> >> This differs a little from what I've found online for RS-170 timings: >> >> Reference Black = 0.075V >> White = 1.00V >> Sync = -0.40V >> >> in some places but seems to correspond to the pics at >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_video almost exactly. So I'm >> confused. >> >> But I've seen other numbers as well. And the timings are roughly >> consistent with the envelops suggested in an old terribly scanned doc from >> the 80's that talks about video formats... >> >> Anyway, video formats always proliferate into a cluster of almost the >> same standards and it's hard to know what, exactly, to call them... >> >> I'm not sure if this helped, or not :( >> >> Warner >> > From useddec at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 19:43:11 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 19:43:11 -0600 Subject: DEC Rainbow / Pro video on VGA monitors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a few VR201 boards I might let loose. I don't want to sell any monitors until I fell off the DECMATES , Rainbows, and Pros. Paul On Sat, Jan 19, 2019 at 12:57 PM Warner Losh via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Greetings, > > I'm trying to find a way to get my DEC Rainbow's monochrome output onto a > newer monitor than my aging VR201 (especially since I zapped something in > it and my diagnostic efforts to date haven't fixed it). > > So, I found the bit in the Rainbow docs that said the output was DC Coupled > RS-170 signals and to convert to RS-170 (NTSC black and white) I needed to > put a 10uF cap inline to make it RS-170. So I did this, and fed it into a > generic NTSC composite video to VGA thing, and got only a little joy. The > first few lines seem to be missing, then the next few are OK and then > nothing else. > > I tried to google this, but found nothing. My google foo has failed me. > > Does anybody else have a working setup? > > Warner > From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Jan 20 21:11:34 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 22:11:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <4AE2184D-0C06-4E6E-A80F-01C6A3AEF040@fritzm.org> References: <20190120145528.6949E18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4AE2184D-0C06-4E6E-A80F-01C6A3AEF040@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <848511386.475861.1548040294831@email.ionos.com> > On January 20, 2019 at 3:56 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > > > I'm technically curious, now, about the failure modes of these sorts of DRAMS. I guess in addition to stuck bits, there are also potential decode fails (show up on address test, but not ones/zeros) and some errors that have history-dependence, perhaps internal latches (show up on random data test, but not address or ones/zeros.) I'd guess also there might be potential for crosstalk, noise, and "fading bit" type issues as well? Will have to see after I make the next round of repairs if there are still additional problems that the MAINDEC flags that my simplistic diag isn't shaking out. > Jack Ganssle wrote a couple of articles about memory testing and failure modes. They may be useful or at least interesting. http://www.ganssle.com/articles/aramrom.htm http://www.ganssle.com/articles/ramtest.htm Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From donald at donaldwhittemore.com Sun Jan 20 11:39:23 2019 From: donald at donaldwhittemore.com (Donald) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 09:39:23 -0800 Subject: 3850 media Message-ID: 2nd seller indicates he is the first seller. Just selling on UK eBay. Don?t think you need different IDs to do that but what the hey. Whatever floats your boat. From msw at hecnet.eu Sun Jan 20 16:43:18 2019 From: msw at hecnet.eu (msw at hecnet.eu) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 22:43:18 -0000 Subject: Handful of SUN SCSI cables Message-ID: <017f01d4b111$8a475cc0$9ed61640$@hecnet.eu> Anyone in the UK want a handful of Sun SCSI cables. Six cables of various lengths with various combinations of narrow, wide and ultrawide connectors including the tiny SCSI connectors. 5 quid as a paypal friend will cover postage. Regards, Mark. From msw at hecnet.eu Sun Jan 20 16:46:17 2019 From: msw at hecnet.eu (msw at hecnet.eu) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 22:46:17 -0000 Subject: UK: TRS-80 Model 100 Assembler/Debugger & Remote Disk cassettes/manuals in bookcase covers Message-ID: <018401d4b111$f51c73f0$df555bd0$@hecnet.eu> I have these two in unused condition (the paper inside is a little yellowed but apart from that looks new) including cassettes. Cat no: 26-3839 & 26-3823 Ten pound including postage as paypal gift - not asking a lot as I'd rather someone had them and saved them from the tip. Regards, Mark. From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jan 20 17:11:45 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 16:11:45 -0700 Subject: DEC Rainbow / Pro video on VGA monitors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As a PS, I connected the real vr201 with a keyboard and got the attached photo. It looks like there is a one line error about missing keyboard in the first line when there is no keyboard. Counting out the rows on the boot screen confirms. So this is much closer than I thought. Warner On Sun, Jan 20, 2019, 3:16 PM Warner Losh > > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 12:57 PM Marvin Johnston via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> > I'm trying to find a way to get my DEC Rainbow's monochrome output onto >> a >> > newer monitor than my aging VR201 (especially since I zapped something >> in >> > it and my diagnostic efforts to date haven't fixed it). >> >> I can't remember the video output on the Rainbow, but I wanted to do >> something similar to have one setup for the S-100 machines. After >> looking on eBay (before I banned them from my use), I found a device >> that basically had RCA audio/video inputs with a VGA output. It also had >> the advantage of having an analog TV tuner built in so I could also use >> things like the old video games that had the Channel 3/4 output. >> >> The device is buried somewhere so I can't tell you the brand. >> > > Yea. I'm going to order one or two others to see if I can get them to > work... The TRB says: > > 4.4.8.14 Composite Video Signal Characteristics > The composite video output provides a compatible EIA RS-170 output > generated by combining the video signal with a composite sync signal. > > NOTE The use of dc coupling is not in strict agreement with the EIA RS-170 > standard. To agree with RS170, the video generator output load would > require a 10 microfarad capacitor in series with the output. Without the > capacitor, the RS-170 2 milliamp dc short circuit requirement is violated. > > The composite video output has the following nominal characteristics: > I. Output impedance = 75 ohms, dc coupled to 0.0 V > 2. Sync level = 0.0 V > 3. Reference black level = approximately 0.3 V with a 75 ohm load > 4. Reference white level = approximately 1.0 V with a 75 ohm load > 5. The composite sync waveform conforms to EIA RS-170 standards. > > The vertical interval is composed of six equalizing pulses, six vertical > sync pulses, and six more equalizing pulses. > > The timing is as follows: > Equalizing pulse width = 2.33us +/- 50ns > Vertical pulse width = 27.28us +/- 200ns > Horizontal pulse width = 4.71us +/- 50ns > Horizontal blank width = 11.84us +/- 50ns (80-column mode) > = 12.34us +/- 50ns (132-column mode) > Front porch 1.54us +/- 50ns > > This differs a little from what I've found online for RS-170 timings: > > Reference Black = 0.075V > White = 1.00V > Sync = -0.40V > > in some places but seems to correspond to the pics at > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_video almost exactly. So I'm > confused. > > But I've seen other numbers as well. And the timings are roughly > consistent with the envelops suggested in an old terribly scanned doc from > the 80's that talks about video formats... > > Anyway, video formats always proliferate into a cluster of almost the same > standards and it's hard to know what, exactly, to call them... > > I'm not sure if this helped, or not :( > > Warner > From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Jan 21 04:52:56 2019 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 11:52:56 +0100 Subject: VXT2000+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190121105256.winzqvnmodfdk5dm@lug-owl.de> On Sun, 2019-01-20 15:20:22 +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Bummer time.... I turned on my VXT2000+ today and after about > 5 minutes there was a "pop" and a small puff of smoke from > the power supply. No smell like you get from a selenium diode > or other semiconductor. Now, the fan tries to run but only > twitches and the led blinks slowly. No obvious blown part > visible. Does anyone have a service manual for the H7109-B > Power Supply? I would really like to fix this but I can't > see paying $150-$250 for a replacement. (Actually, if I had > that kind of money I would, but I don't!) I don't have a manual, but PSU problems typically base on broken electrolytic capacitors. (The larger have venting cuts on their top, you may be able to see these broken open, or puffed up.) Start there and replace them, they're cheap! And if that doesn't help, we'd try a better approach. MfG, JBG -- From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 21 10:35:51 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 11:35:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Change in UNIBUS parity operation (Was: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem) Message-ID: <20190121163551.F3F3A18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Even better, it claims to be able to control whether the memory uses odd > or even parity! (How, for UNIBUS memory, I don't know - there's no way to do > this over the UNIBUS. So this really confused me, as the UNIBUS spec says parity is wholly within the slave device, and only an _error_ signal is transferred over the bus. E.g. from the 'pdp11 peripherals handbook', 1975 edition (pg. 5-8): "PA and PB are generated by a slave ... [it] negates PA and asserts PB to indicate a parity error ... both negated indicates no parity error. [other combinations] are conditions reserved for future use." The answer is that originally the UNIBUS parity operation was _different_, and that sometime around the introduction of the PDP-11/45, they _changed_ it, which is apparently why Appendix E, about parity in the /45, says what it does! I found the first clue in the MM11-F Core Memory Manual (DEC-11-HMFA-D - which is not online, in fact no MM11-F stuff is online, I'll have to scan it all and send it to Al); I was looking in that to see if the parity version had a CSR or not (to reply to Paul Koning), and on the subject of parity it said this: "The data bits on the bus are called BUS DPB0 and BUS DPB1." And there is nothing else on how the two parity bits are _used_ - the clear implication is that the memory just _stores_ them, and hands them to someone else (the master) over the bus, for actual use. Looking further, I found proof in the "unibus interface manual" - and moreover, the details differ between the first (DEC-11-HIAA-D) and second (DEC-11-HIAB-D) editions (both of which differ from the above)! In the first, Table 2-1 has these entries for PA and PB: "Parity Available - PA ... Indicates paritied data" and "Parity Bit - PB ... Transmits parity bit"; at the bottom of page 2-4 we find "PA indicates that the data being transferred is to use parity, and PB transmits the parity bit. Neither line is used by the KA11 processor." (Which explains why, when, after reading about parity in the MM11-F manual, I went looking for parity stuff in the KA11 which would use it, I couldn't find it!) In the second, Table 2-1 has these entries for PA and PB: "Parity Bit Low - PA ... Transmits parity bit, low byte" and "Parity Bit High - PB ... Transmits parity bit, high byte"; at the top of page 2-5 we find wholly different text from the above, including "These lines are used by the MP11 Parity Option in conjunction with parity memories such as the MM11-FP." I looked online for more about the MP11, but could find nothing. I wonder if any were made? This later version seems to agree with that Appendix E. I tried to find an early -11/45 system manual, to see if it originally shipped with MM11-F's, but couldn't locate one - does anyone have one? The ones online (e.g. EK-1145-OP-001) are much later. It's also interesting to speculate about _why_ these changes were made; I can think of several! :-) Noel From dnm at pobox.com Mon Jan 21 19:29:53 2019 From: dnm at pobox.com (Daniel Moniz) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 17:29:53 -0800 Subject: UK: TRS-80 Model 100 Assembler/Debugger & Remote Disk cassettes/manuals in bookcase covers In-Reply-To: <018401d4b111$f51c73f0$df555bd0$@hecnet.eu> References: <018401d4b111$f51c73f0$df555bd0$@hecnet.eu> Message-ID: <1548120593.690474.1640433344.34963260@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hi Mark, On Sun, Jan 20, 2019, at 2:46 PM, msw--- via cctalk wrote: > I have these two in unused condition (the paper inside is a little yellowed > but apart from that looks new) including cassettes. > > Cat no: 26-3839 & 26-3823 > > Ten pound including postage as paypal gift - not asking a lot as I'd rather > someone had them and saved them from the tip. If no on else has already claimed these (especially anyone more local to you), I'd take them, assuming you'd be willing to ship to the U.S. (happy to cover shipping costs). -- Daniel Moniz [http://pobox.com/~dnm/] From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Jan 21 19:51:39 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 17:51:39 -0800 Subject: Change in UNIBUS parity operation (Was: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem) In-Reply-To: <20190121163551.F3F3A18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190121163551.F3F3A18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 21, 2019, at 8:35 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> Even better, it claims to be able to control whether the memory uses odd >> or even parity! (How, for UNIBUS memory, I don't know - there's no way to do >> this over the UNIBUS. > > So this really confused me... The answer is... Super interesting, Noel -- thanks for the archaeology! So far, this had been the muddiest area in the DEC documentation related to my 11/45 restoration (besides the missing ECO's and backplane wire list!) --FritzM. From jesse at cypress-tech.com Mon Jan 21 14:34:36 2019 From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 15:34:36 -0500 Subject: HP 12042B Serial Interface board Message-ID: <25f0121b-b648-6a75-dfb8-7673e1046b86@cypress-tech.com> Looking to track down an old HP 1000 series A900, A700, A600, A400 board. Its a 12042B Serial Interface board aka 5061-4941 or 5061-4919. If anyone has one that they want to part with, feel free to contact me. Thanks Jesse Dougherty Cypress Technology, Inc. Re-Sellers of HP hardware jesse (at) Cypress-tech.com From jesse at cypress-tech.com Mon Jan 21 18:08:46 2019 From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 19:08:46 -0500 Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups Message-ID: Cypress Technology, Inc. is a HP hardware vendor specializing in selling and supporting Hewlett-Packard HP 3000 (MPE/iX), 9000, and Itanium (HP-UX) servers, workstations, parts, and all related peripherals. We offer HP hardware from the early 1990's to the current date. We offer but are not limited to the following HP items: HP IA64 Itanium Integrity servers HP 9000 Enterprise HP-UX servers HP 9000 Visualize HP-UX workstations (PA-RISC and Itanium) HP 3000 MPE/iX PA-RISC servers (aka e3000) HP 1000 Series classic servers, parts, and peripherals HP VME Industrial workstations, VME CPU boards, peripherals, and parts HP ABB Advant Stations / RTA Real Time Accelerator platform / OSC / 800xA HP Memory, disk arrays and drives, tape drives, CPUs, data communications, & networking solutions HP Enterprise Storage, XP, 3Par, Hitachi, EMC... Disk Arrays and drives HP spare parts for all lines We specialize in HP servers and workstations that support the following OS: Linux, HP-UX, HP Unix, MPE/iX, OpenVMS, and MS Windows . Contact us if you want a price quotation on any HP servers, workstations, hardware, or services. . Contact us if you wish to sell or trade for any hardware. . Contact us if you have any questions. . We offer hardware and software support. . We offer migrations service for HP-UX and MPE/iX platforms. . We provide parts and servers for discontinued HP items . We sell to large and small corporations, World governments, military, suppliers, re-sells, and end-users . We buy off-lease bulk and surplus hardware . We ship and export Worldwide to every country. www.Cypress-Tech.com Thank you Jesse Dougherty Cypress Technology, Inc. Land O Lakes, Florida USA Phone 888-954-3414 / (cell) 412-589-3779 jesse at cypress-tech.com jesse.cypresstech at gmail.com www.linkedin.com/in/jessedougherty From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jan 21 18:56:23 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 17:56:23 -0700 Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <518f254c-3921-f8f7-5037-314149190ca3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/21/19 5:08 PM, Jesse Dougherty via cctech wrote: > Cypress Technology, Inc. I know that I've seen a number of for sale emails on cctalk, but I think they were all from individuals. I don't recall seeing a business blatantly advertise on cctalk. I feel like such an advertisement is borderline spam and does not belong on cctalk. It's one thing to respond how your company can help someone that's asked a question, especially if the response is germane to the topic at hand. I.e.: Bob: Does anyone have or know where I can find $part? Tom: Bob, email me directly, my company, $CompanyName, has them and we'd be glad to help you. That's cool. Conversely "Hay everybody, check out what we have for sale this week!" is not so cool. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 02:13:46 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 08:13:46 -0000 Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups In-Reply-To: <518f254c-3921-f8f7-5037-314149190ca3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <518f254c-3921-f8f7-5037-314149190ca3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <068001d4b22a$65f8c600$31ea5200$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via > cctalk > Sent: 22 January 2019 00:56 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, > Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups > > On 1/21/19 5:08 PM, Jesse Dougherty via cctech wrote: > > Cypress Technology, Inc. > > > > I know that I've seen a number of for sale emails on cctalk, but I think they > were all from individuals. I don't recall seeing a business blatantly advertise > on cctalk. > > I feel like such an advertisement is borderline spam and does not belong on > cctalk. > I felt it was more like wasted effort. I expect that these folks are selling at commercial prices, and I don't think anyone on here will pay them... Dave From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 02:13:46 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 08:13:46 -0000 Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups In-Reply-To: <518f254c-3921-f8f7-5037-314149190ca3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <518f254c-3921-f8f7-5037-314149190ca3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <068001d4b22a$65f8c600$31ea5200$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via > cctalk > Sent: 22 January 2019 00:56 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, > Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups > > On 1/21/19 5:08 PM, Jesse Dougherty via cctech wrote: > > Cypress Technology, Inc. > > > > I know that I've seen a number of for sale emails on cctalk, but I think they > were all from individuals. I don't recall seeing a business blatantly advertise > on cctalk. > > I feel like such an advertisement is borderline spam and does not belong on > cctalk. > I felt it was more like wasted effort. I expect that these folks are selling at commercial prices, and I don't think anyone on here will pay them... Dave From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jan 22 08:03:58 2019 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 08:03:58 -0600 Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups In-Reply-To: <518f254c-3921-f8f7-5037-314149190ca3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <518f254c-3921-f8f7-5037-314149190ca3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <007001d4b25b$520d04e0$f6270ea0$@classiccmp.org> Grant wrote... --------------- Conversely "Hay everybody, check out what we have for sale this week!" is not so cool. -------------- I've dealt with Jesse before, at least I tried to. I needed a particular board that he had (part of a 12920 mux set) that has almost no commercial value. That board wasn't generally used under the more "still commercially viable" os's like rte. It was generally only used for HP TSB which isn't going to have commercial interest. He wanted somewhere around $1500 for it, and would not negotiate much really. ISTR that someone made mention that the stuff was pitched later, unsold. So sad. I agree that the general introductory blast post was a bit over the top. But I don't think it's been posted here regularly, and vendors that obviously contribute here get a little leeway (Cindy). I figure some may not be familiar with Cypress/Dougherty systems so one intro email per six months or year doesn't bug me. More often will draw some ire ;) If Dougherty Systems wants to participate in this mailing list, there needs to be some 'collector friendly' value, it's a two way street. I suggest that Jeff @ Cypress scan maybe a year of past postings by Cindy @ Electronics Plus, and emulate. J From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 22 12:36:14 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 12:36:14 -0600 Subject: Buyer beware Message-ID: <030a01d4b281$5af22150$10d663f0$@com> I almost NEVER do this, but please be VERY cautious if dealing with CU Digital in Sadorus, IL. He does have a few model Ms and maybe some Fs, but I STRONGLY suggest you pick them up in person and have a laptop and an adapter to test them before buying. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 22 12:45:14 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 12:45:14 -0600 Subject: Houston stash sorting this coming Saturday In-Reply-To: <059a01d4ac3e$3b870040$b29500c0$@com> References: <059a01d4ac3e$3b870040$b29500c0$@com> Message-ID: <032101d4b282$9d02dc50$d70894f0$@com> I was only there long enough to get through the smaller shed. Items of interest include a few PS/1 machines and some PS/2 machines. There is also a PS/1 monitor. Terminals included Harris, a huge Televideo, a 950 keyboard, VT410 and VT420 terminals, various IBM terminals. There are a qty of nice condition dot matrix printers. There is an HP plotter, desktop style, about 2-3 feet long, in good shape. There are large fixed freq monitors with 3 or 5 BNC on the back. There are many 8088 to PIII computers, most with RAM and hdd, in decent shape. There are many small "pizza box" style HP machines, including a 150, if no one claimed it. For some pics, please follow the thread on DT from those who attended. I was not able to upload anything while I was there. https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=20593 Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 22 12:28:39 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 12:28:39 -0600 Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups In-Reply-To: <007001d4b25b$520d04e0$f6270ea0$@classiccmp.org> References: <518f254c-3921-f8f7-5037-314149190ca3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <007001d4b25b$520d04e0$f6270ea0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <02f101d4b280$4bc49740$e34dc5c0$@com> I agree that the general introductory blast post was a bit over the top. But I don't think it's been posted here regularly, and vendors that obviously contribute here get a little leeway (Cindy). I figure some may not be familiar with Cypress/Dougherty systems so one intro email per six months or year doesn't bug me. More often will draw some ire ;) If Dougherty Systems wants to participate in this mailing list, there needs to be some 'collector friendly' value, it's a two way street. I suggest that Jeff @ Cypress scan maybe a year of past postings by Cindy @ Electronics Plus, and emulate. J Wow! I feel honored! Jesse at Cypress is actually not a bad guy. Been around a long time, but you are right, they ARE high dollar. I am SO sorry that I could not help more at the Houston haul. I have severe asthma, and it got out of control, so I had to leave. The guy has a TON (literally) of vintage stuff, but he is an ebay guy, and is not willing to part with stuff cheap. One guy drove 15 hours to get there, and did not take home what he wanted, because the guy would not budge on prices. If you want the seller's cell phone to try and make decent offers for some of the stuff in pictures, send me an email. He charged me $400 for 1 Mac 512K, 4 TI/99, and a few old TRS 80 CoCo type systems. I am not going back again, sorry. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jesse at cypress-tech.co Tue Jan 22 19:05:39 2019 From: jesse at cypress-tech.co (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 20:05:39 -0500 Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups In-Reply-To: <007001d4b25b$520d04e0$f6270ea0$@classiccmp.org> References: <007001d4b25b$520d04e0$f6270ea0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Man you guys are tough... We sell this old HP stuff, thats what we do. There is no commercial or retail price in 20+ year old items. Its comes down to what we have into it, what others are selling them for, and what the demand is. Jay, I dont recall quoting you a 12920, I went back 3 years on my sent emails and I cant find it. I dont remember what the price or circumstances were. If I had that info, I could understand and explain the price that I quoted you .. but I'm glad you found what you needed... sorry if you were offended. As for me posting an intro on this site.. I have a boat load of older HP stuff and I'm always trying to find homes for. If my info or parts helps someone get the part or system they need, then its a win for everyone. I'm not some spam bot that just sends crap email out, we are a very small company thats been around for 25 years and we have a lot of knowledge with this older 1000, 3000, 9000, & Itanium hardware. Resellers get flack from everyone but small HP vendors like us help keep the wheels of this older HP machine rolling. Try to buy a 25 year old system from HP, they will try to sell you a x86.. :-) Again, it was an intro and if it offended anyone, please accept my apologies* * From jesse at cypress-tech.com Tue Jan 22 19:10:57 2019 From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 20:10:57 -0500 Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups Message-ID: Man you guys are tough... We sell this old HP stuff, thats what we do. There is no commercial or retail price in 20+ year old items. Its comes down to what we have into it, what others are selling them for, and what the demand is. Jay, I dont recall quoting you a 12920, I went back 3 years on my sent emails and I cant find it. I dont remember what the price or circumstances were. If I had that info, I could understand and explain the price that I quoted you .. but I'm glad you found what you needed... sorry if you were offended. As for me posting an intro on this site.. I have a boat load of older HP stuff and I'm always trying to find homes for. If my info or parts helps someone get the part or system they need, then its a win for everyone. I'm not some spam bot that just sends crap email out, we are a very small company thats been around for 25 years and we have a lot of knowledge with this older 1000, 3000, 9000, & Itanium hardware. Resellers get flack from everyone but small HP vendors like us help keep the wheels of this older HP machine rolling. Try to buy a 25 year old system from HP, they will try to sell you a x86.. :-) Again, it was an intro and if it offended anyone, please accept my apologies* * From jesse at cypress-tech.com Tue Jan 22 19:13:50 2019 From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 20:13:50 -0500 Subject: WTB - HP 1000 Series A990 System Message-ID: <441a7ace-0aa7-ed8b-bfd0-592752a3ffce@cypress-tech.com> I have a need for an A990 system. If anyone has one that they want to part with, let me know. Thanks Jesse Cypress Technology Inc Jesse at Cypress-Tech.com From fred at MISER.MISERNET.NET Wed Jan 23 07:06:42 2019 From: fred at MISER.MISERNET.NET (Fred) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 08:06:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 52, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jan 2019 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 19:08:46 -0500 > From: Jesse Dougherty > Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, > Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups > HP 3000 MPE/iX PA-RISC servers (aka e3000) I've always wanted a 3000 system to play with after using one (as a user only) many years and many jobs ago. Epay prices seem a little high. $current_job had one years ago and sold it on eBay for $250 (I found the sold listing in a folder ...). I cried a little. It wasn't a fill the floor model - but it had to have had a little "oomph" as it supported 30-40 interactive users all day. I agree with the other posters and the list-boss - if you provide hobbyist pricing I'd be game. You're not going to get far with commercial or "high price just because it's rare but not in demand" pricing. Otherwise, I offer fifty bucks ... :) Fred From jesse at cypress-tech.com Wed Jan 23 12:37:24 2019 From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 13:37:24 -0500 Subject: WTB - HP 1000 Series SCSI Card A12016 Message-ID: <579f4fd2-6aea-8675-a899-98c1d4590ce4@cypress-tech.com> I have a need for an SCSI card for A series. The part number is 12016A / 12016-60101 Thanks Jesse Cypress Technology Inc Jesse at Cypress-Tech.com From pat at vax11.net Wed Jan 23 15:39:55 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 16:39:55 -0500 Subject: TeleVideo Message-ID: For anyone interested, I've restarted my blog on things I've been doing with TeleVideo systems, and have the first two parts (out of maybe a dozen or so planned) up. http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2019/01/televideo-systems-part-i.html http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2019/01/televideo-systems-part-ii-keyboards.html Pat From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Jan 23 15:57:09 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 13:57:09 -0800 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage Message-ID: This hurts my heart: HP Gold vintage 1970's high yeld recovery plated ic chips leads w palladium caps https://www.ebay.com/itm/382505855460 Who cares what something could do, there might be pennies worth of gold to be had! -- Chris From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 15:59:19 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 16:59:19 -0500 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That would be a LOT of pennies of gold. But people on this list do not like to hear this. -- Will On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 4:57 PM Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > > This hurts my heart: > > HP Gold vintage 1970's high yeld recovery plated ic chips leads w palladium caps > https://www.ebay.com/itm/382505855460 > > Who cares what something could do, there might be pennies worth of gold to be had! > > -- Chris > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Jan 23 16:19:53 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 14:19:53 -0800 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Would it really though? How much gold would you actually get from that? If it?s really that much, why would the seller be selling it instead of keeping it for themselves? -- Chris > On Jan 23, 2019, at 1:59 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > That would be a LOT of pennies of gold. > > But people on this list do not like to hear this. > > -- > Will > > On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 4:57 PM Chris Hanson via cctalk > wrote: >> >> This hurts my heart: >> >> HP Gold vintage 1970's high yeld recovery plated ic chips leads w palladium caps >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/382505855460 >> >> Who cares what something could do, there might be pennies worth of gold to be had! >> >> -- Chris >> From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 16:26:19 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 17:26:19 -0500 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe not the 450 dollars asking, but likely at least 250 dollars for the pile. It is HP - thick plate everywhere, in the ICs, and probably a few other places. Getting E-scrap refined is very expensive to do in small batches. To make it feasible, about a ton of good gold bearing scrap is needed to make it worthwhile. Not many people can do a ton at a time. I am not entirely convinced of the palladium claim. -- Will On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 5:19 PM Chris Hanson wrote: > > Would it really though? How much gold would you actually get from that? If it?s really that much, why would the seller be selling it instead of keeping it for themselves? > > -- Chris > > > On Jan 23, 2019, at 1:59 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > That would be a LOT of pennies of gold. > > > > But people on this list do not like to hear this. > > > > -- > > Will > > > > On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 4:57 PM Chris Hanson via cctalk > > wrote: > >> > >> This hurts my heart: > >> > >> HP Gold vintage 1970's high yeld recovery plated ic chips leads w palladium caps > >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/382505855460 > >> > >> Who cares what something could do, there might be pennies worth of gold to be had! > >> > >> -- Chris > >> > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 23 16:34:06 2019 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 16:34:06 -0600 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000201d4b36b$bfe78240$3fb686c0$@classiccmp.org> OMG no, that hurts more than just my heart because: That top board on the stack is a 12922, part of that 3 board mux set for TSB. I sure wish I had some spare cash at the moment. The ebay seller lists as "Cypress"? Pushing them out for gold? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Hanson via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 3:57 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage This hurts my heart: HP Gold vintage 1970's high yeld recovery plated ic chips leads w palladium caps https://www.ebay.com/itm/382505855460 Who cares what something could do, there might be pennies worth of gold to be had! -- Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Jan 23 15:50:26 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 13:50:26 -0800 Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups In-Reply-To: References: <007001d4b25b$520d04e0$f6270ea0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: One thing I seriously dislike looking at the site is that there are no prices; that to me says you?re going to want to charge too much, and I also don?t like having to talk to someone or negotiate with someone in order to buy things for my hobby. How much would you charge for the following? - HP 9000-712/80 - HP A4012 TeleShare card for the 9000-712 Thanks. -- Chris From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 23 16:37:26 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 17:37:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed Message-ID: <20190123223726.9CB6F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> In response to a request a couple of years back from Cindy, I've been slowly working on a page to help scrappers identify PDP-11's, and give them an idea what to look for. I have it _mostly_ done: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Models.html Comments/error-checking etc welcome. Also, I still need images of a few things: -11/60 and -11/94 front consoles, the original LSI-11 card, the KDJ11-E, and most of the DEC QBUS boxes. (Yeah, I could try looking for free images, I've been busy!) Any help gratefully received! Noel From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 16:37:57 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 17:37:57 -0500 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: <000201d4b36b$bfe78240$3fb686c0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000201d4b36b$bfe78240$3fb686c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Why not offer them a nice pile of money for just that board - make it worth their while to update the auction? -- Will On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 5:34 PM Jay West via cctalk wrote: > > OMG no, that hurts more than just my heart because: That top board on the > stack is a 12922, part of that 3 board mux set for TSB. I sure wish I had > some spare cash at the moment. > > The ebay seller lists as "Cypress"? Pushing them out for gold? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris > Hanson via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 3:57 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage > > This hurts my heart: > > HP Gold vintage 1970's high yeld recovery plated ic chips leads w > palladium caps > https://www.ebay.com/itm/382505855460 > > Who cares what something could do, there might be pennies worth of gold to > be had! > > -- Chris > > From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 16:36:31 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 15:36:31 -0700 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: <000201d4b36b$bfe78240$3fb686c0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000201d4b36b$bfe78240$3fb686c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 3:34 PM Jay West via cctalk wrote: > OMG no, that hurts more than just my heart because: That top board on the > stack is a 12922, part of that 3 board mux set for TSB. I sure wish I had > some spare cash at the moment. > > The ebay seller lists as "Cypress"? Pushing them out for gold? > Isn't that the same Cypress Technology whose Jesse Dougherty has been posting here lately, and who you said you had tried to deal with before? From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 23 16:47:53 2019 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 16:47:53 -0600 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: References: <000201d4b36b$bfe78240$3fb686c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001d4b36d$acf91840$06eb48c0$@classiccmp.org> Because Will, I'm not sure that would be fair to the other people already here watching or planning to bid. I'd be swooping in and changing an auction they were already looking at. And if it happens now those watchers will know who to be peeved at. But if someone wins it, I'll pay $300 for just that one board. -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli [mailto:wdonzelli at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 4:38 PM To: Jay West ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Chris Hanson Subject: Re: HP board "gold recovery" garbage Why not offer them a nice pile of money for just that board - make it worth their while to update the auction? -- Will On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 5:34 PM Jay West via cctalk wrote: > > OMG no, that hurts more than just my heart because: That top board on > the stack is a 12922, part of that 3 board mux set for TSB. I sure > wish I had some spare cash at the moment. > > The ebay seller lists as "Cypress"? Pushing them out for gold? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris > Hanson via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 3:57 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage > > This hurts my heart: > > HP Gold vintage 1970's high yeld recovery plated ic chips leads w > palladium caps > https://www.ebay.com/itm/382505855460 > > Who cares what something could do, there might be pennies worth of > gold to be had! > > -- Chris > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 17:04:15 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 18:04:15 -0500 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: <000001d4b36d$acf91840$06eb48c0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000201d4b36b$bfe78240$3fb686c0$@classiccmp.org> <000001d4b36d$acf91840$06eb48c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I think you just gave fair warning. No, I am not interested, as I do not do HP. -- Will On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 5:47 PM Jay West wrote: > > Because Will, I'm not sure that would be fair to the other people already here watching or planning to bid. I'd be swooping in and changing an auction they were already looking at. And if it happens now those watchers will know who to be peeved at. > > But if someone wins it, I'll pay $300 for just that one board. > > -----Original Message----- > From: William Donzelli [mailto:wdonzelli at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 4:38 PM > To: Jay West ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Chris Hanson > Subject: Re: HP board "gold recovery" garbage > > Why not offer them a nice pile of money for just that board - make it worth their while to update the auction? > > -- > Will > > On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 5:34 PM Jay West via cctalk wrote: > > > > OMG no, that hurts more than just my heart because: That top board on > > the stack is a 12922, part of that 3 board mux set for TSB. I sure > > wish I had some spare cash at the moment. > > > > The ebay seller lists as "Cypress"? Pushing them out for gold? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris > > Hanson via cctalk > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 3:57 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage > > > > This hurts my heart: > > > > HP Gold vintage 1970's high yeld recovery plated ic chips leads w > > palladium caps > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/382505855460 > > > > Who cares what something could do, there might be pennies worth of > > gold to be had! > > > > -- Chris > > > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 23 17:37:40 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 15:37:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups In-Reply-To: References: <007001d4b25b$520d04e0$f6270ea0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: How much would you charge for the following? a 12922, (part of a 3 board mux set for TSB) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 23 17:45:01 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 18:45:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: CR11 M8290/M8291 difference?? Message-ID: <20190123234501.8DE6D18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Does anyone know what the difference is between the M8290 and M8291 versions of the CR11? The only version of the CR11 manual online only seems to cover the M8290? Noel From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Jan 23 17:49:01 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 15:49:01 -0800 Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups In-Reply-To: References: <007001d4b25b$520d04e0$f6270ea0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <186D482E-B9F8-4A1E-9B7C-59C5157D872B@eschatologist.net> On Jan 23, 2019, at 1:50 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > How much would you charge for the following? > > - HP 9000-712/80 > - HP A4012 TeleShare card for the 9000-712 For the list?s edification, I recently paid about $200 total, including shipping, for the above (not from Jesse/Cypress) in a 32MB/540MB/no peripherals configuration. And I knew I was overpaying. ? Chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 23 18:23:32 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 16:23:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays In-Reply-To: <186D482E-B9F8-4A1E-9B7C-59C5157D872B@eschatologist.net> References: <007001d4b25b$520d04e0$f6270ea0$@classiccmp.org> <186D482E-B9F8-4A1E-9B7C-59C5157D872B@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: I think that it is perfectly legitimate for somebody to ask whatever price they want to for things that they are selling, even if I would like to, or EXPECT, to get it for much less. If they happen to GET their price, then it was valid. If they can't get their price, then maybe they will learn more about the perceived value, but it is still up to them what they can charge, or hope to get. If they want to burn Stradivarius as firewood, it hurts. A lot. But, it is still a right of ownership. (I was even hurt to see the female lead (Dana Cummings, played by Anna Kendrick) in "The Accountant" destroy what would have been an ORIGINAL (Christian Wolff didn't go for fakes) of "A Friend In Need" by Cassius Marcellus Coolidge (1903) to get at "Free Form" by Jackson Pollack (1946) that was hidden behind it.) Although I would love to get an oversized cheap print reproduction of it, and cut out the faces to make a carnival picture taking set for Humane Society fund raisers. (few know that that idea of a picture with cutouts for faces was ALSO invented by Cassius Marcellus Coolidge!) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 23 19:06:17 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 17:06:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups In-Reply-To: References: <007001d4b25b$520d04e0$f6270ea0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > How much would you charge for the following? > a 12922, (part of a 3 board mux set for TSB) Don't you hate rhetorical questions? The correct answer in this case is: A: "I would ask $450. But, because some people might not see a value past $200, I would try to sweeten the deal by throwing in a large handful of other boards." From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 23 19:22:24 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 17:22:24 -0800 Subject: TeleVideo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22753c3e-d9c7-b3d1-c637-c7f12e6bd1d8@bitsavers.org> On 1/23/19 1:39 PM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > For anyone interested, I've restarted my blog on things I've been doing > with TeleVideo systems, and have the first two parts (out of maybe a dozen > or so planned) up. > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2019/01/televideo-systems-part-i.html > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2019/01/televideo-systems-part-ii-keyboards.html > > Pat > there are reasonable descriptions of terminal keyboard protocols and keymaps in the MAME drivers From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Jan 23 19:39:27 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 01:39:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage References: <961010472.178066.1548293967358.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <961010472.178066.1548293967358@mail.yahoo.com> tantalum maybe? Ed# In a message dated 1/23/2019 3:26:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: palladium claim. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 23 19:43:43 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 20:43:43 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed In-Reply-To: <20190123223726.9CB6F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190123223726.9CB6F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9E7713DC-F12D-4B42-9F7C-CB9739DF657B@comcast.net> > On Jan 23, 2019, at 5:37 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > In response to a request a couple of years back from Cindy, I've been slowly > working on a page to help scrappers identify PDP-11's, and give them an idea > what to look for. I have it _mostly_ done: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Models.html > > Comments/error-checking etc welcome. Also, I still need images of a few > things: -11/60 and -11/94 front consoles, the original LSI-11 card, the > KDJ11-E, and most of the DEC QBUS boxes. (Yeah, I could try looking for free > images, I've been busy!) > > Any help gratefully received! > > Noel Google "pdp11/60" turns up some good pictures, one showing the console panel closeup is from a UK computer museum. The 11/44 picture is a bit strange looking because the innards show through the perforated panel, which is probably not how it would be perceived by most observers when just looking at one. The same goes for the 11/24. It seems like a problem caused by taking the photo with flash; lit by ambient light it would probably look better. PDP11/84 and I think 94 also can be found on the cover of some of the Handbooks in Bitsavers. A variant of the LSI-11 is the H-11 sold by Heathkit. Is that actually the same board? Either way it would be worth mentioning. Do you want to show the PRO system boards? And maybe the I/O boards? Those both are quite different looking, especially the I/O boards with their odd connector and differing number scheme. (PRO boards are marked with the ROM ID number, a 16-bit value shown in 6 octal digits.) In the discussion of boards, you might mention that "FLIP CHIP" often appears (on older boards? All boards? Many boards regardless of age?). And there will be a "digital" logo, the 7-box kind. And the handles are either plastic or metal as shown, but either way always have a module number on them. If it looks like one of those cards but doesn't have a module number, or it's a large logic board with a white handle, it's probably from some other company though it may well be a DEC-compatible board. The "Miscellaneous Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-11 Information" link lands me on a "Forbidden" error page. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 23 19:46:59 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 20:46:59 -0500 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: <961010472.178066.1548293967358@mail.yahoo.com> References: <961010472.178066.1548293967358.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <961010472.178066.1548293967358@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BE03F1E-C075-4D75-BEED-A26789A8AE98@comcast.net> > On Jan 23, 2019, at 8:39 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > tantalum maybe? > Ed# > In a message dated 1/23/2019 3:26:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > palladium claim. Tantalum caps are electrolytic type. The original reference speaks of multilayer capacitors, those are ceramic. Wikipedia says that indeed palladium (and silver) were used in early generations of those devices, to be replaced by nickel and copper later on due to cost pressures. So it's possible. And today the price per ounce of Pa and Au are about the same. I wonder how much metal is in ceramic capacitors... paul From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Jan 23 20:09:21 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 18:09:21 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed In-Reply-To: <20190123223726.9CB6F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190123223726.9CB6F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0F83A2BD-782B-4B62-BDCB-A3CD0E387D7A@avanthar.com> Don?t forget the quad-height /73 board, it?s much nicer than the dual-height boards. Is a /44 really worth that much now?!?! Zane Sent from my iPod > On Jan 23, 2019, at 2:37 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > In response to a request a couple of years back from Cindy, I've been slowly > working on a page to help scrappers identify PDP-11's, and give them an idea > what to look for. I have it _mostly_ done: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Models.html > > Comments/error-checking etc welcome. Also, I still need images of a few > things: -11/60 and -11/94 front consoles, the original LSI-11 card, the > KDJ11-E, and most of the DEC QBUS boxes. (Yeah, I could try looking for free > images, I've been busy!) > > Any help gratefully received! > > Noel From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Jan 23 20:20:17 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 02:20:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage References: <2093088590.178835.1548296417966.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2093088590.178835.1548296417966@mail.yahoo.com> I learn something? new? then... when? ?was? palladium?used?? ?was it? around in? the? 2100? hp? days or? was this? ?used? later?? ?and? I had not heard of? it? Ed#In a message dated 1/23/2019 6:47:02 PM US Mountain Standard Time, paulkoning at comcast.net writes: palladium From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 20:28:46 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 21:28:46 -0500 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: <3BE03F1E-C075-4D75-BEED-A26789A8AE98@comcast.net> References: <961010472.178066.1548293967358.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <961010472.178066.1548293967358@mail.yahoo.com> <3BE03F1E-C075-4D75-BEED-A26789A8AE98@comcast.net> Message-ID: > Tantalum caps are electrolytic type. The original reference speaks of multilayer capacitors, those are ceramic. Wikipedia says that indeed palladium (and silver) were used in early generations of those devices, to be replaced by nickel and copper later on due to cost pressures. Duh...for some reason I interpreted the Ebay title to mean that the caps of the ICs had the Palladium! Anyway, yes MLCCs do contain Palladium, but very, very little anymore. -- Will From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 20:40:53 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (Allison Parent) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 21:40:53 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed In-Reply-To: <9E7713DC-F12D-4B42-9F7C-CB9739DF657B@comcast.net> References: <20190123223726.9CB6F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9E7713DC-F12D-4B42-9F7C-CB9739DF657B@comcast.net> Message-ID: iPhoned this in! On Jan 23, 2019, at 8:43 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > On Jan 23, 2019, at 5:37 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > In response to a request a couple of years back from Cindy, I've been slowly > working on a page to help scrappers identify PDP-11's, and give them an idea > what to look for. I have it _mostly_ done: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Models.html > > Comments/error-checking etc welcome. Also, I still need images of a few > things: -11/60 and -11/94 front consoles, the original LSI-11 card, the > KDJ11-E, and most of the DEC QBUS boxes. (Yeah, I could try looking for free > images, I've been busy!) > > Any help gratefully received! > > Noel Google "pdp11/60" turns up some good pictures, one showing the console panel closeup is from a UK computer museum. The 11/44 picture is a bit strange looking because the innards show through the perforated panel, which is probably not how it would be perceived by most observers when just looking at one. The same goes for the 11/24. It seems like a problem caused by taking the photo with flash; lit by ambient light it would probably look better. PDP11/84 and I think 94 also can be found on the cover of some of the Handbooks in Bitsavers. A variant of the LSI-11 is the H-11 sold by Heathkit. Is that actually the same board? Either way it would be worth mentioning The heath h11 and the lsi11 are The same right down to the handle. The prime difference Is the heath backplane is smaller number of slots and user assembled along with the case and power supply. The memory, io, and disk system was all heath and could be used in dec backplanes and DEC cards in heath. The heath disk was RX01 comparable and could format media. Allison Do you want to show the PRO system boards? And maybe the I/O boards? Those both are quite different looking, especially the I/O boards with their odd connector and differing number scheme. (PRO boards are marked with the ROM ID number, a 16-bit value shown in 6 octal digits.) In the discussion of boards, you might mention that "FLIP CHIP" often appears (on older boards? All boards? Many boards regardless of age?). And there will be a "digital" logo, the 7-box kind. And the handles are either plastic or metal as shown, but either way always have a module number on them. If it looks like one of those cards but doesn't have a module number, or it's a large logic board with a white handle, it's probably from some other company though it may well be a DEC-compatible board. The "Miscellaneous Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-11 Information" link lands me on a "Forbidden" error page. paul From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 20:59:38 2019 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 21:59:38 -0500 Subject: CR11 M8290/M8291 difference?? In-Reply-To: <20190123234501.8DE6D18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190123234501.8DE6D18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: IIRC, John McNamara designed the CR8/e and the two CR11 boards. My recollection is based on the fact I picked up the last bit of CR8e Initially, I think there were thought to be some differences in "Punch" cards and timing, real holes and just the black marks. That initial issue seemed to indicate two types of readers and different timing. I recall working with some card punch gear on the 8 or 11 attempting to use the same cards. That is about all I can recall but maybe that will spur some thoughts. On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 6:45 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone know what the difference is between the M8290 and M8291 versions > of the CR11? The only version of the CR11 manual online only seems to cover > the M8290? > > Noel > From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jan 23 22:20:04 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 04:20:04 +0000 Subject: Houston stash sorting this coming Saturday In-Reply-To: <032101d4b282$9d02dc50$d70894f0$@com> References: <059a01d4ac3e$3b870040$b29500c0$@com> <032101d4b282$9d02dc50$d70894f0$@com> Message-ID: <20190124042003.GA11559@lonesome.com> On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 12:45:14PM -0600, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > Terminals included Harris, a huge Televideo, Check the "huge Televideo" for actually being a CP/M machine. I was involved with those for a while (sigh). mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jan 23 23:55:36 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 05:55:36 +0000 Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays In-Reply-To: References: <007001d4b25b$520d04e0$f6270ea0$@classiccmp.org> <186D482E-B9F8-4A1E-9B7C-59C5157D872B@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <20190124055527.GA15956@lonesome.com> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 04:23:32PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Although I would love to get an oversized cheap print reproduction > of it, and cut out the faces to make a carnival picture taking set > for Humane Society fund raisers. (few know that that idea of a > picture with cutouts for faces was ALSO invented by Cassius > Marcellus Coolidge!) "We just want the nose" -- Peter Sellers in The Magic Christian mcl From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Wed Jan 23 17:53:36 2019 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 23:53:36 +0000 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: <000001d4b36d$acf91840$06eb48c0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000201d4b36b$bfe78240$3fb686c0$@classiccmp.org> , <000001d4b36d$acf91840$06eb48c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: jay, It's a "buy it now" so not really an auction. You would not really be changing the terms if you made an offer! Wayne > On Jan 23, 2019, at 2:48 PM, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > > Because Will, I'm not sure that would be fair to the other people already here watching or planning to bid. I'd be swooping in and changing an auction they were already looking at. And if it happens now those watchers will know who to be peeved at. > > But if someone wins it, I'll pay $300 for just that one board. > > -----Original Message----- > From: William Donzelli [mailto:wdonzelli at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 4:38 PM > To: Jay West ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Chris Hanson > Subject: Re: HP board "gold recovery" garbage > > Why not offer them a nice pile of money for just that board - make it worth their while to update the auction? > > -- > Will > >> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 5:34 PM Jay West via cctalk wrote: >> >> OMG no, that hurts more than just my heart because: That top board on >> the stack is a 12922, part of that 3 board mux set for TSB. I sure >> wish I had some spare cash at the moment. >> >> The ebay seller lists as "Cypress"? Pushing them out for gold? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris >> Hanson via cctalk >> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 3:57 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage >> >> This hurts my heart: >> >> HP Gold vintage 1970's high yeld recovery plated ic chips leads w >> palladium caps >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/382505855460 >> >> Who cares what something could do, there might be pennies worth of >> gold to be had! >> >> -- Chris > > From fritzm at fritzm.org Thu Jan 24 00:16:35 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 22:16:35 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed In-Reply-To: <20190123223726.9CB6F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190123223726.9CB6F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <38E194D9-724C-4A95-B2E5-EE3ABC67259C@fritzm.org> > On Jan 23, 2019, at 2:37 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > In response to a request a couple of years back from Cindy, I've been slowly > working on a page to help scrappers identify PDP-11's, and give them an idea > what to look for. I have it _mostly_ done... Hey, now -- those PDP-11's have their toggles set for V6 single-user boot! :-) From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 24 08:55:47 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 09:55:47 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed In-Reply-To: <20190123223726.9CB6F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190123223726.9CB6F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 23, 2019, at 5:37 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > In response to a request a couple of years back from Cindy, I've been slowly > working on a page to help scrappers identify PDP-11's, and give them an idea > what to look for. I have it _mostly_ done: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Models.html > > Comments/error-checking etc welcome. Also, I still need images of a few > things: -11/60 and -11/94 front consoles, the original LSI-11 card, the > KDJ11-E, and most of the DEC QBUS boxes. (Yeah, I could try looking for free > images, I've been busy!) > > Any help gratefully received! > > Noel Was the 11/74 ever shipped? I know of two machines that were called that, both 11/70 derivatives: the multi-processor machine that RSX-11/M supports, and an 11/70 with CIS instructions added, seen in the RSTS lab in Merrimack NH in the early 1980s. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 09:38:44 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 09:38:44 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed In-Reply-To: References: <20190123223726.9CB6F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9E7713DC-F12D-4B42-9F7C-CB9739DF657B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 8:41 PM Allison Parent via cctalk wrote: > On Jan 23, 2019, at 8:43 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > On Jan 23, 2019, at 5:37 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Models.html > > > A variant of the LSI-11 is the H-11 sold by Heathkit. Is that actually the same board? Either way it would be worth mentioning I have an H11 and it has a real DEC CPU board. The backplane is Heath, with industry-standard (not DEC's zig-zag) backplane edge connectors, and Heath parallel and serial cards, but the CPU card is 100% DEC. > The heath h11 and the lsi11 are > The same right down to the handle. The prime difference > Is the heath backplane is smaller number of slots and user assembled along with the case and power supply. The memory, io, and disk system > was all heath and could be used in dec backplanes and DEC cards in heath. The heath disk was RX01 comparable and could format media. Right. The H-27 disk system definitely worked with RX01 media and could format blank media. I have an H-27 that came with my H-11 but the former owner (my boss at the time) never used the H-27 and I never got it working to boot from it. My boss did a massive case mod to extend the width of the box several inches and made a simple 2-slot CD-interconnect (two Heath backplane connectors and some wire) so he could fit in an RLV11. That's how I used it at work, and when the company closed and he gave me the old box, I undid the mod (it was functional but not strong and definitely not pretty) and so now I can't use the RLV11 in there any more (yes I have an RLV12 now). The point here being, we didn't use the H-27 and I never got it working to boot from it. All I ever had for this box was real DEC RT-11 (v5.4). I never got the original HT-11 disks, so if the H-27 needs a special RT-11 driver, that's likely where I'm getting stuck. > Do you want to show the PRO system boards? And maybe the I/O boards? Those both are quite different looking, especially the I/O boards with their odd connector and differing number scheme. (PRO boards are marked with the ROM ID number, a 16-bit value shown in 6 octal digits.) Yep. Many's the time I "fixed" a PRO by unclamping and reclamping the backplane connector on all the boards. -ethan From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jan 24 10:28:53 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 10:28:53 -0600 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: <2093088590.178835.1548296417966@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2093088590.178835.1548296417966.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2093088590.178835.1548296417966@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5C49E7C5.9000807@pico-systems.com> On 01/23/2019 08:20 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > I learn something new then... when was palladium used? was it around in the 2100 hp days or was this used later? and I had not heard of it? > If palladium was used, it was in VANISHINGLY small quantities. Many circuit boards use palladium to seed the plating in the plated-through holes. But, the amounts there are in the micrograms for a whole board. I suspect if palladium was used in multilayer caps that it was used for the same purpose, a wash over the surface of the capacitor material, allow it to dry and then electroplate with the desired electrode material. They'd probably use a couple milligrams at most on each layer of a capacitor sheet, which would eventually be cut up into hundreds of thousands of caps. Some high-value MLCs can have 20 layers or so, so that would be milligrams * 20 / 100,000. Not a hell of a lot of palladium would be in an entire board full of them. Jon From john at forecast.name Thu Jan 24 10:32:46 2019 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 11:32:46 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed In-Reply-To: References: <20190123223726.9CB6F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <411F0359-4C2E-497D-9605-64B7ADCC2284@forecast.name> > On Jan 24, 2019, at 9:55 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Jan 23, 2019, at 5:37 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >> In response to a request a couple of years back from Cindy, I've been slowly >> working on a page to help scrappers identify PDP-11's, and give them an idea >> what to look for. I have it _mostly_ done: >> >> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Models.html >> >> Comments/error-checking etc welcome. Also, I still need images of a few >> things: -11/60 and -11/94 front consoles, the original LSI-11 card, the >> KDJ11-E, and most of the DEC QBUS boxes. (Yeah, I could try looking for free >> images, I've been busy!) >> >> Any help gratefully received! >> >> Noel > > Was the 11/74 ever shipped? I know of two machines that were called that, both 11/70 derivatives: the multi-processor machine that RSX-11/M supports, and an 11/70 with CIS instructions added, seen in the RSTS lab in Merrimack NH in the early 1980s. > > paul > No. As far as I know there were only 2 11/74?s in use; the quad machine in Spit Brook (CASTOR:: and, when split into 2 duals the other was POLLUX::) and a dual in Tewksbury, later LKG (ELROND::). After the project was cancelled there were a number of already built 11/74?s which were stripped down to single CPUs and made available internally for development - that may be what you saw in the RSTS lab. John. From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 10:38:46 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 11:38:46 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed In-Reply-To: References: <20190123223726.9CB6F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9E7713DC-F12D-4B42-9F7C-CB9739DF657B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <27a8b180-844c-c625-adee-ad1b704b4133@gmail.com> On 01/24/2019 10:38 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 8:41 PM Allison Parent via cctalk > wrote: >> On Jan 23, 2019, at 8:43 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> On Jan 23, 2019, at 5:37 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Models.html >>> >> A variant of the LSI-11 is the H-11 sold by Heathkit. Is that actually the same board? Either way it would be worth mentioning > I have an H11 and it has a real DEC CPU board. The backplane is > Heath, with industry-standard (not DEC's zig-zag) backplane edge > connectors, and Heath parallel and serial cards, but the CPU card is > 100% DEC. > >> The heath h11 and the lsi11 are >> The same right down to the handle. The prime difference >> Is the heath backplane is smaller number of slots and user assembled along with the case and power supply. The memory, io, and disk system >> was all heath and could be used in dec backplanes and DEC cards in heath. The heath disk was RX01 comparable and could format media. > Right. The H-27 disk system definitely worked with RX01 media and > could format blank media. I have an H-27 that came with my H-11 but > the former owner (my boss at the time) never used the H-27 and I never > got it working to boot from it. My boss did a massive case mod to > extend the width of the box several inches and made a simple 2-slot > CD-interconnect (two Heath backplane connectors and some wire) so he > could fit in an RLV11. That's how I used it at work, and when the > company closed and he gave me the old box, I undid the mod (it was > functional but not strong and definitely not pretty) and so now I > can't use the RLV11 in there any more (yes I have an RLV12 now). The > point here being, we didn't use the H-27 and I never got it working to > boot from it. All I ever had for this box was real DEC RT-11 (v5.4). > I never got the original HT-11 disks, so if the H-27 needs a special > RT-11 driver, that's likely where I'm getting stuck. The H27 is media compatible with RX01 but the boot and driver for it is unique. RT11 then likely V4 with heath driver and was supplied as a special version from heath (HT11). UCSD pascal with a H27 driver was also available.? Also TinyC interpreter as a language for HT11.? Back then that was about it for the H11. Common H27 issue was the hub clamp plastic would get brittle and die. That clamp is likely extinct. Its the one item I do not have is the H27.? I have ram, single serial cards (DL copies), and a parallel card that was used with the punch reader.? Most people found the H11 power supply rather flaky and usually moved to a BA11 as both upgrade and mechanical improvement.? Most that had the H11 moved to more mainstream DEC hardware and OS. All my systems use RX11, RX21, or RQDX2/3 with M7555 breakout board for floppies and MFM disks (RD52 Quantum), one has tu58,? and one system has RLV21, RQDX3, RX21-RX02, RLV21-RL02. Allison From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 24 10:44:27 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 11:44:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed Message-ID: <20190124164427.05B5918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning >> Also, I still need images of a few things: -11/60 and -11/94 front >> consoles, the original LSI-11 card, the KDJ11-E, and most of the DEC >> QBUS boxes. (Yeah, I could try looking for free images > Google "pdp11/60" turns up some good pictures, one showing the console > panel closeup is from a UK computer museum. Which one - 'computermuseum.org.uk'? Many of the pictures I saw online were on pages with copyright notices. I was actually hoping someone who _has_ one the the things I listed would take a picture and send it to me. > It seems like a problem caused by taking the photo with flash; lit by > ambient light it would probably look better. They are in low-light locations; without flash it's a long exposure and I get blurring because my hand isn't steady enough. And I don't feel like moving them, or re-doing the lighting - too many higher priority things to do. > A variant of the LSI-11 is the H-11 sold by Heathkit. .. it would be > worth mentioning. I've seen some go by on eBait, so I have an idea of the value, but I couldn't get enthusiastic about listing them. > Do you want to show the PRO system boards? And maybe the I/O boards? Again, not enthusiastic enough to put in the work... > In the discussion of boards, you might mention that "FLIP CHIP" often > appears ... And there will be a "digital" logo, the 7-box kind. OK, I will add that. > (on older boards?All boards? Many boards regardless of age?) It's spotty, and seems to die out later on. The -11/40 boards have it, but for the -11/45 and -11/70, some do, and some don't. None of the KDF11 or KDJ11 QBUS CPU boards do. > The "Miscellaneous Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-11 Information" > link lands me on a "Forbidden" error page. Ooops. Fixed. Thanks. > Zane Healy > Don't forget the quad-height /73 board, it's much nicer than the > dual-height boards. That's the KDJ11-B, no? That's there. > Is a /44 really worth that much now?!?! Hey, one just went for more than that: eBait #183624991924, $3K! Admittedly, that one was loaded, but the page does say "a number of factors will cause them to vary considerably from the numbers given here ... Exactly which peripherals and memory are included". But I did adjust the number a bit - the boards are going for about $50 each, and add in a BA11-A, it's probably $700 for a bare machine. Actually, I really need to check all the numbers. But I think I'd rather get the QBUS boxes sorted out first; I pretty much only know the BA11's. If someone could tell me what later boxes to list, above the BA23, (which I also need an image of), that would be very helpful. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 24 10:49:57 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 11:49:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed Message-ID: <20190124164957.2ADE518C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > those PDP-11's have their toggles set for V6 single-user boot! :-) Very observant! (Although I guess you've been using that a lot recently! :-) > From: Paul Koning > Was the 11/74 ever shipped? I don't think so. (Well, I vaguely recall rumours of a couple going out on beta-test; too busy to chase down where I saw that.) Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 24 10:51:22 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 11:51:22 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed In-Reply-To: <20190124164427.05B5918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190124164427.05B5918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3FCCA0A1-0C88-4C9D-A78B-43DA3D5A8B68@comcast.net> > On Jan 24, 2019, at 11:44 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >>> Also, I still need images of a few things: -11/60 and -11/94 front >>> consoles, the original LSI-11 card, the KDJ11-E, and most of the DEC >>> QBUS boxes. (Yeah, I could try looking for free images > >> Google "pdp11/60" turns up some good pictures, one showing the console >> panel closeup is from a UK computer museum. > > Which one - 'computermuseum.org.uk'? Many of the pictures I saw online were > on pages with copyright notices. I was actually hoping someone who _has_ one > the the things I listed would take a picture and send it to me. Yes, that's the one. Given the source I figured they probably would give permission. I thought of another PDP11 variant you could mention: the PDP-11/R20. I've never seen one in person, only photos. As I recall, it looks like a regular 20 but with metal handle toggle switches on the console rather than plastic handles. paul From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 11:02:43 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 12:02:43 -0500 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: <5C49E7C5.9000807@pico-systems.com> References: <2093088590.178835.1548296417966.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2093088590.178835.1548296417966@mail.yahoo.com> <5C49E7C5.9000807@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Good, older MLCCs can be up to 3 or 4 percent Palladium by weight. Modern-ish ones can be zero, but are often maybe 0.1 percent. It adds up. Remember, Palladium is *heavy*, ceramic is not. -- Will On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 11:29 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 01/23/2019 08:20 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > I learn something new then... when was palladium used? was it around in the 2100 hp days or was this used later? and I had not heard of it? > > > If palladium was used, it was in VANISHINGLY small > quantities. Many circuit boards use palladium to seed the > plating in the plated-through holes. But, the amounts there > are in the micrograms for a whole board. I suspect if > palladium was used in multilayer caps that it was used for > the same purpose, a wash over the surface of the capacitor > material, allow it to dry and then electroplate with the > desired electrode material. They'd probably use a couple > milligrams at most on each layer of a capacitor sheet, which > would eventually be cut up into hundreds of thousands of caps. > Some high-value MLCs can have 20 layers or so, so that would > be milligrams * 20 / 100,000. > Not a hell of a lot of palladium would be in an entire board > full of them. > > Jon From systems.glitch at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 11:01:06 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 12:01:06 -0500 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: <5C49E7C5.9000807@pico-systems.com> References: <2093088590.178835.1548296417966.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2093088590.178835.1548296417966@mail.yahoo.com> <5C49E7C5.9000807@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I know folks get bent out of shape over board scrap listings, but like Will said, there's actual money in those boards. It's my opinion that it benefits the hobby to have scrappers listing stuff on eBay rather than just putting them in the next Gaylord to go to the gold refiner guy. Of course, I'd still rather have the whole machine get saved, but this stuff *is* junk to 99% of the population. I buy a lot of board scrap, both online and from clients, to either recover parts for reuse, or to refurb boards (if they're in good enough shape). A lot of it really is otherwise junk (boards from low volume custom applications, stuff that's had catastrophic failures, etc.) and the scrap guys for the most part don't really know the difference between "really is junk" and "is something people want and will pay money for." Jay, if you're really willing to pay out $300 for the one board, I'll see if I can't acquire this lot of scrap too. I have no personal interest in HP stuff, so anyone else wanting some is free to buy it. I won't try and get it unless folks here are wanting to split it up though. Thanks, Jonathan On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 11:29 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 01/23/2019 08:20 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > I learn something new then... when was palladium used? was it > around in the 2100 hp days or was this used later? and I had not > heard of it? > > > If palladium was used, it was in VANISHINGLY small > quantities. Many circuit boards use palladium to seed the > plating in the plated-through holes. But, the amounts there > are in the micrograms for a whole board. I suspect if > palladium was used in multilayer caps that it was used for > the same purpose, a wash over the surface of the capacitor > material, allow it to dry and then electroplate with the > desired electrode material. They'd probably use a couple > milligrams at most on each layer of a capacitor sheet, which > would eventually be cut up into hundreds of thousands of caps. > Some high-value MLCs can have 20 layers or so, so that would > be milligrams * 20 / 100,000. > Not a hell of a lot of palladium would be in an entire board > full of them. > > Jon > From jesse at cypress-tech.co Thu Jan 24 08:28:43 2019 From: jesse at cypress-tech.co (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 09:28:43 -0500 Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups In-Reply-To: References: <007001d4b25b$520d04e0$f6270ea0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <035728a4-5d19-2370-8cf5-2f6b2984258a@cypress-tech.co> how about 50 bucks? Jesse Cypress Tech On 1/23/19 6:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > How much would you charge for the following? > > a 12922, (part of a 3 board mux set for TSB) From philip at axeside.co.uk Thu Jan 24 08:56:08 2019 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 14:56:08 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed In-Reply-To: <0F83A2BD-782B-4B62-BDCB-A3CD0E387D7A@avanthar.com> References: <20190123223726.9CB6F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0F83A2BD-782B-4B62-BDCB-A3CD0E387D7A@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <1e3bc10b-7922-ed48-492a-d8e28ce3eaa0@axeside.co.uk> On 24/01/2019 02:09, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Is a /44 really worth that much now?!?! I wouldn't let the friend who bought my 11/44 pay even a quarter of that. I bargained him down to about ?200 (I can't remember the exact figure) before I let him buy it :-) Actually, all those prices looked high. I know we have to strike a balance between setting unrealistic expectations for sellers (or driving the prices up) and making them think it's not worth the effort. But a couple of thousand dollars each for PDP11 processor boxes? Seriously? Philip. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 11:22:36 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 11:22:36 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed In-Reply-To: <20190124164427.05B5918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190124164427.05B5918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 10:44 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > But I did adjust the number a bit - the boards are going for about $50 each, > and add in a BA11-A, it's probably $700 for a bare machine. Speaking of boards vs boxes, any idea what an empty BA11-F fetches these days? I have a box with all the boards for a KB11-C (PDP-11/70) including backplane and front panel PCB (no mounting bracket or front plexi) and I'd like to turn it into a working machine if possible. (I also have all the boards and backplane, and no box, for 2MB in-1670 Intel memory subsystem (eg https://books.google.com/books?id=5OsHzHowTLIC&lpg=PA16&ots=sRWXIRaRI9&dq=intel%20memory%201670%20pdp&pg=PA16#v=onepage&q&f=false) - just need to fabricate a box for that and add a fat PSU. It has over 1300 4116 DRAMs) > Actually, I really need to check all the numbers. I would recommend adding somewhere a date for when the numbers were last updated since prices will obviously change as time goes on. Nothing wrong with giving out numbers, but provide them with a "freshness date". > But I think I'd rather get the QBUS boxes sorted out first; I pretty much > only know the BA11's. If someone could tell me what later boxes to list, > above the BA23, (which I also need an image of), that would be very helpful. I have a number of BA23 boxes, and a BA123. The next one up in the series off the top of my head is the BA213. I'm fuzzy after that because we stopped buying DEC gear around that era. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 11:28:36 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 11:28:36 -0600 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: References: <2093088590.178835.1548296417966.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2093088590.178835.1548296417966@mail.yahoo.com> <5C49E7C5.9000807@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 11:03 AM William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Good, older MLCCs can be up to 3 or 4 percent Palladium by weight. > Modern-ish ones can be zero, but are often maybe 0.1 percent. I just checked - spot Palladium price is $44/g. If you take 1 lb of these older MLCCs and recover 4% by weight of Palladium from that, you get $800, gross. No idea what the extraction process costs, so no idea of the net profit, but that's the current math on the collection side. -ethan From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Thu Jan 24 11:58:11 2019 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 10:58:11 -0700 Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups In-Reply-To: <035728a4-5d19-2370-8cf5-2f6b2984258a@cypress-tech.co> References: <007001d4b25b$520d04e0$f6270ea0$@classiccmp.org> <035728a4-5d19-2370-8cf5-2f6b2984258a@cypress-tech.co> Message-ID: Do you have any MPE systems that would be interesting for a hobbiest but not too expensive? On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 10:13 AM Jesse Dougherty via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > how about 50 bucks? > > Jesse > > Cypress Tech > > > On 1/23/19 6:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > How much would you charge for the following? > > > > a 12922, (part of a 3 board mux set for TSB) > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 24 14:00:27 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 12:00:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: <000201d4b36b$bfe78240$3fb686c0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000201d4b36b$bfe78240$3fb686c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Jesse/Cypress said "fifty bucks" for one. I can come up with fifty bucks for you. Work out the details with him, and tell me the Paypal address. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Wed, 23 Jan 2019, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > OMG no, that hurts more than just my heart because: That top board on the > stack is a 12922, part of that 3 board mux set for TSB. I sure wish I had > some spare cash at the moment. > > The ebay seller lists as "Cypress"? Pushing them out for gold? and: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 09:28:43 -0500 From: Jesse Dougherty To: Fred Cisin , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups how about 50 bucks? Jesse Cypress Tech On 1/23/19 6:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > How much would you charge for the following? > a 12922, (part of a 3 board mux set for TSB) From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jan 24 16:26:48 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 16:26:48 -0600 Subject: Jesse and the ebay mess Message-ID: <08cf01d4b433$e5f1d530$b1d57f90$@com> I just got off the phone with Jesse at Cypress. He said he did not post the gold and tantalum items on ebay. It is someone else, trying to cast a bad name on him. I explained to him that the list would really like to work with him, and that old HP stuff is wanted. He explained that each item is put into a system, fully tested, and has warranty and follow up support if needed, so prices are not low. I explained to him that many list members can do board level repairs. I suggested a "garage sale" type scenario, where he offers as-is equip, to save the costs of paying a tech to test everything. He is open to that idea. He has pallets of old terminals and keyboards that he does not work on anymore, so no warranty. I told him that if he would test the monitor to make sure it turns on, and include a complete matching keyboard, members would prob pay about $85 plus shipping for a set. He does have a 150, and a lot of 1970s and 80s terminals and keyboards. He said he will gather them together and do a basic test and offer some out, on an as-is basis. Please understand that he is a business (for the past 30 years), and he does have to cover costs of storage, technicians, etc. No, he won't sell stuff for $5. It costs him more than that to pay someone to find the stuff and pack it. Please bear his needs in mind too. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Jan 24 17:00:46 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 15:00:46 -0800 Subject: Jesse and the ebay mess In-Reply-To: <08cf01d4b433$e5f1d530$b1d57f90$@com> References: <08cf01d4b433$e5f1d530$b1d57f90$@com> Message-ID: <47D0280F-F383-4C2E-8126-0A42DA3EE8A4@eschatologist.net> On Jan 24, 2019, at 2:26 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > I just got off the phone with Jesse at Cypress. He said he did not post the > gold and tantalum items on ebay. It is someone else, trying to cast a bad > name on him. It was in the eBay Store linked from his web site. I didn?t search ?Cypress gold,? I clicked the logo that took me to his eBay Store. > Please understand that he is a business (for the past 30 years), and he does > have to cover costs of storage, technicians, etc. No, he won't sell stuff > for $5. It costs him more than that to pay someone to find the stuff and > pack it. Please bear his needs in mind too. Just because he wants to run a profitable business selling old equipment does not actually mean people will want to pay the prices he wants to charge. For example, if he has pallets of things like old terminals unsold, he?s probably pricing them too high. If he has lots and lots of old workstations sitting in a warehouse, unsold, he?s probably pricing them too high. It doesn?t matter to the market how much work he may have put in; what matters is that he?s selling systems for $400 that can be acquired for $200 without much difficulty, so if he wants to move his systems he needs to price them about the same. That?s supply and demand. -- Chris From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jan 24 17:01:30 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 17:01:30 -0600 Subject: TeleVideo In-Reply-To: <22753c3e-d9c7-b3d1-c637-c7f12e6bd1d8@bitsavers.org> References: <22753c3e-d9c7-b3d1-c637-c7f12e6bd1d8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <091001d4b438$bea30530$3be90f90$@com> I did not bring the stuff home. Mostly I brought documentation and software. Call John Adler 713-298-1128; he owns the stuff in the sheds. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 7:22 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: TeleVideo On 1/23/19 1:39 PM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > For anyone interested, I've restarted my blog on things I've been doing > with TeleVideo systems, and have the first two parts (out of maybe a dozen > or so planned) up. > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2019/01/televideo-systems-part-i.html > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2019/01/televideo-systems-part-ii-keyboards.html > > Pat > there are reasonable descriptions of terminal keyboard protocols and keymaps in the MAME drivers --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jan 24 17:02:26 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 17:02:26 -0600 Subject: Houston stash sorting this coming Saturday In-Reply-To: <059a01d4ac3e$3b870040$b29500c0$@com> References: <059a01d4ac3e$3b870040$b29500c0$@com> Message-ID: <091101d4b438$e0079ab0$a016d010$@com> I did not bring the stuff home. Mostly I brought documentation and software. Call John Adler 713-298-1128; he owns the stuff in the sheds. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics Plus via cctalk Sent: Monday, January 14, 2019 1:21 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Houston stash sorting this coming Saturday The 2 sheds will be sorted next Saturday morning, early, in Katy, TX. If you want the address, pls email me. If you are in the Austin, TX area, there might be room in a carpool. Same for the Minneapolis and Michigan areas. If you are coming, please wear sturdy boots, gloves, bring bottled water, and dress in layers, as it might be either 35F or 75F that day. Bring your own food. Bring cash, no checks or cc. Not sure about restroom facilities. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Thu Jan 24 17:11:22 2019 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 17:11:22 -0600 Subject: Jesse and the ebay mess Message-ID: On Thu Jan 24 16:26:48 CST 2019, Electronics Plus sales at elecplus.com said: > I just got off the phone with Jesse at Cypress. He said he did not post the > gold and tantalum items on ebay. It is someone else, trying to cast a bad > name on him. Sorry, but this doesn't really check out. Jesse sent an email to the list, original subject 'Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups' and put his email and website in the message. Going to that website, cypress-tech.com, we can go to the 'ebay store' page where the apparently official ebay store of Cypress Tech is linked to. Following the link, http://stores.ebay.com/Cypress-Technology-Inc we see that this is the same seller as the original gold scrap ebay link, https://www.ebay.com/itm/382505855460 Here is the list of reasonable possibilities that I can think of: - Somebody sent a fake email, from a fake Cypress-Tech.com, and made a fake ebay page with the sole purpose of defaming this person (I'll admit, not entirely out of the realm of possibility if there were someone with a grudge against him) - Jesse does not maintain full exclusive control over the ebay store, and one of his coworkers/employees have posted the gold scrap auctions without his knowledge (I suppose this is possible) - You've been lied to, or otherwise you made a mistake Please correct me if I've made an error somewhere, and please don't take this as a personal attack of any kind. I don't have any interest in this matter really, but my BS detector was showing a reading, so I checked it out a little deeper and that's what I found. Best Regards, Joe Zatarski From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jan 24 17:22:29 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 17:22:29 -0600 Subject: Jesse and the ebay mess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <091e01d4b43b$ad636730$082a3590$@com> Seems weird, I fully agree. But that is what he told me, so I passed it on. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Zatarski via cctalk Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2019 5:11 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Jesse and the ebay mess On Thu Jan 24 16:26:48 CST 2019, Electronics Plus sales at elecplus.com said: > I just got off the phone with Jesse at Cypress. He said he did not post the > gold and tantalum items on ebay. It is someone else, trying to cast a bad > name on him. Sorry, but this doesn't really check out. Jesse sent an email to the list, original subject 'Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups' and put his email and website in the message. Going to that website, cypress-tech.com, we can go to the 'ebay store' page where the apparently official ebay store of Cypress Tech is linked to. Following the link, http://stores.ebay.com/Cypress-Technology-Inc we see that this is the same seller as the original gold scrap ebay link, https://www.ebay.com/itm/382505855460 Here is the list of reasonable possibilities that I can think of: - Somebody sent a fake email, from a fake Cypress-Tech.com, and made a fake ebay page with the sole purpose of defaming this person (I'll admit, not entirely out of the realm of possibility if there were someone with a grudge against him) - Jesse does not maintain full exclusive control over the ebay store, and one of his coworkers/employees have posted the gold scrap auctions without his knowledge (I suppose this is possible) - You've been lied to, or otherwise you made a mistake Please correct me if I've made an error somewhere, and please don't take this as a personal attack of any kind. I don't have any interest in this matter really, but my BS detector was showing a reading, so I checked it out a little deeper and that's what I found. Best Regards, Joe Zatarski --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Thu Jan 24 17:23:06 2019 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 17:23:06 -0600 Subject: Jesse and the ebay mess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Sorry, but this doesn't really check out... *snip* With regards to my last message, I should also note that I did notice the ebay auction shipping locations do not all match the location listed in Jesse's email. This is interesting at least, but then some auctions do match land o' lakes, FL Does Cypress-Tech have multiple locations? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 24 17:28:36 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 15:28:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jesse and the ebay mess In-Reply-To: <08cf01d4b433$e5f1d530$b1d57f90$@com> References: <08cf01d4b433$e5f1d530$b1d57f90$@com> Message-ID: Thank you, Cindy, YOUR vouching for him means a lot! On Thu, 24 Jan 2019, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > I just got off the phone with Jesse at Cypress. He said he did not post the > gold and tantalum items on ebay. It is someone else, trying to cast a bad > name on him. I am sorry to hear, and a little surprised, that there are that level of "dirty tricks" in that, or any other part of the industry. The eBay listing and Jesse's cypress-tech.co both connect to the same seller/store on eBay. Nevertheless, he responded promptly to my query about a board such as what Jay had expressed interest in. I am quite serious in my willingness to provide fifty bucks to pay for something that Jay wants. Prices are based on far more than "value". Having filed "schedule C" for well over half a century, I've learned that the "cost of doing business" is NOT necessarily even related to "cost of goods sold". And, the variance in prices can be astronomical. eg. When I found out that City College Of SF was considering buying a used Centronics 101 for $1000, I gave them one that I had repeatedly been unable to get $25 for at computer swaps. Fantastic tax deduction! (If you have had for over a year, you can deduct "fair market value", rather than your cost!) When I don't like somebody's prices (happens often), I can "vote with my feet", without holding it against them, even if I might think that they have a distorted view of the value. So, to repeat, if Jay and Jesse can work out the details, I will gladly spring fifty bucks. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > I explained to him that the list would really like to work with him, and > that old HP stuff is wanted. He explained that each item is put into a > system, fully tested, and has warranty and follow up support if needed, so > prices are not low. I explained to him that many list members can do board > level repairs. > > I suggested a "garage sale" type scenario, where he offers as-is equip, to > save the costs of paying a tech to test everything. He is open to that idea. > He has pallets of old terminals and keyboards that he does not work on > anymore, so no warranty. I told him that if he would test the monitor to > make sure it turns on, and include a complete matching keyboard, members > would prob pay about $85 plus shipping for a set. He does have a 150, and a > lot of 1970s and 80s terminals and keyboards. He said he will gather them > together and do a basic test and offer some out, on an as-is basis. > > Please understand that he is a business (for the past 30 years), and he does > have to cover costs of storage, technicians, etc. No, he won't sell stuff > for $5. It costs him more than that to pay someone to find the stuff and > pack it. Please bear his needs in mind too. > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > 830-370-3239 cell > sales at elecplus.com From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 17:35:45 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 16:35:45 -0700 Subject: HP board "gold recovery" garbage In-Reply-To: References: <000201d4b36b$bfe78240$3fb686c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 1:00 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Jesse/Cypress said "fifty bucks" for one. > I can come up with fifty bucks for you. > I don't really care one way or another about the eBay thing, which may or may not actually be related to Cypress, but I think it's great that Jesse offered the board Jay wants for fifty bucks. As another person interested in HP 2000 Time-Shared BASIC, I think it would be great for Jay to get the mux board. I'd be willing to pitch in also. From rlloken at telus.net Thu Jan 24 18:07:49 2019 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 17:07:49 -0700 (MST) Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: ZNsigiSASUljYZNskgPswa References: ZNsigiSASUljYZNskgPswa Message-ID: Gentemen, All of you have at one time expressed interest in all or part of this rack full of Alphaservers and one of you even talked about driving a truck up from Montana and taking it all home. Are any of you still interested? First priority goes to anybody willing to come up here and pick up all or part of the collection. I will consider shipping if that is what it comes down to but the packing and transprotation will be expensive for the DS15 and extremely expensive for the other units. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From jim.manley at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 18:25:53 2019 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 17:25:53 -0700 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Richard, I've got everything lined up to do a full pickup, except the timing. It will have to be next Saturday, 2/2, or preferably 2/9, but I appreciate that the owner has waited this long. The only potential bugaboo could be the weather, but the cycle seems to be favorable at the moment. However, I just heard that the dreaded Polar Vortex may bust out of The Great White North and cause Al Gore to switch from air conditioning to heating in his oversized 50,000-foot environment-unto-itself mansion in Tennessee. Thanks and All the Best, Jim On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 5:08 PM Richard Loken wrote: > Gentemen, > > All of you have at one time expressed interest in all or part of this > rack full of Alphaservers and one of you even talked about driving a truck > up from Montana and taking it all home. > > Are any of you still interested? > > First priority goes to anybody willing to come up here and pick up all or > part of the collection. I will consider shipping if that is what it comes > down to but the packing and transprotation will be expensive for the DS15 > and extremely expensive for the other units. > > -- > Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we > wear, > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" > ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black > From rlloken at telus.net Thu Jan 24 18:34:29 2019 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 17:34:29 -0700 (MST) Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: mpJcg4sRW06E9mpKJgRAmJ References: mpJcg4sRW06E9mpKJgRAmJ Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jan 2019, Jim Manley wrote: > I've got everything lined up to do a full pickup, except the timing. It > will have to be next Saturday, 2/2, or preferably 2/9, but I appreciate > that the owner has waited this long. The only potential bugaboo could be > the weather, but the cycle seems to be favorable at the moment. However, I > just heard that the dreaded Polar Vortex may bust out of The Great White > North and cause Al Gore to switch from air conditioning to heating in his > oversized 50,000-foot environment-unto-itself mansion in Tennessee. February 2 would be the best date. I am away the weekend of February 8 and would have to get somebody else meet you and help you load. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 18:51:56 2019 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 18:51:56 -0600 Subject: Houston stash sorting this coming Saturday In-Reply-To: <091101d4b438$e0079ab0$a016d010$@com> References: <059a01d4ac3e$3b870040$b29500c0$@com> <091101d4b438$e0079ab0$a016d010$@com> Message-ID: <87537376-0EA2-4062-9F62-395277E87979@gmail.com> Was this John that had a computer museum in Houston? I hadn't really caught what the back story was on this collection and collector. Albeit, i know of a lot of Johns who are collectors. Myself included. Sent from my Apple /////c > On Jan 24, 2019, at 5:02 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > I did not bring the stuff home. Mostly I brought documentation and software. > Call John Adler he owns the stuff in the sheds. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 18:56:15 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 19:56:15 -0500 Subject: Houston stash sorting this coming Saturday In-Reply-To: <87537376-0EA2-4062-9F62-395277E87979@gmail.com> References: <059a01d4ac3e$3b870040$b29500c0$@com> <091101d4b438$e0079ab0$a016d010$@com> <87537376-0EA2-4062-9F62-395277E87979@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Was this John that had a computer museum in Houston? I hadn't really caught what the back story was on this collection and collector. That was John Keys. Has anyone heard *anything* from him or the Houston Computer "Museum" in the past few years? He actually had some real gems...and I hope they are not gone. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 24 19:01:33 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 17:01:33 -0800 Subject: Houston stash sorting this coming Saturday In-Reply-To: <091101d4b438$e0079ab0$a016d010$@com> References: <059a01d4ac3e$3b870040$b29500c0$@com> <091101d4b438$e0079ab0$a016d010$@com> Message-ID: <3777cc3a-b7db-51eb-408f-8b446f00bf9b@bitsavers.org> Houston Computer Museum is (was?) John Keys https://twitter.com/@hlctm last msg Mar 2018 On 1/24/19 3:02 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > I did not bring the stuff home. Mostly I brought documentation and software. > Call John Adler 713-298-1128 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 24 19:02:44 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 17:02:44 -0800 Subject: Houston stash sorting this coming Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <059a01d4ac3e$3b870040$b29500c0$@com> <091101d4b438$e0079ab0$a016d010$@com> <87537376-0EA2-4062-9F62-395277E87979@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0c63f43f-2ba1-d1a5-e863-1c25543abbd6@bitsavers.org> On 1/24/19 4:56 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > That was John Keys. Has anyone heard *anything* from him or the > Houston Computer "Museum" in the past few years? I don't think he ever recovered from the flood in 2015, though there are twitter msgs last year where he was still collecting. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 24 19:03:27 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 17:03:27 -0800 Subject: Houston stash sorting this coming Saturday In-Reply-To: <0c63f43f-2ba1-d1a5-e863-1c25543abbd6@bitsavers.org> References: <059a01d4ac3e$3b870040$b29500c0$@com> <091101d4b438$e0079ab0$a016d010$@com> <87537376-0EA2-4062-9F62-395277E87979@gmail.com> <0c63f43f-2ba1-d1a5-e863-1c25543abbd6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 1/24/19 5:02 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/24/19 4:56 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > >> That was John Keys. Has anyone heard *anything* from him or the >> Houston Computer "Museum" in the past few years? > > I don't think he ever recovered from the flood in 2015, though there are twitter > msgs last year actually that was in 2015.. From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Thu Jan 24 22:05:04 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 22:05:04 -0600 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90fcbc58-1cf3-fd21-7434-3d51e6cb7914@thereinhardts.org> On 1/24/2019 6:07 PM, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > Gentemen, > > All of you have at one time expressed interest in all or part of this > rack full of Alphaservers and one of you even talked about driving a truck > up from Montana and taking it all home. > > Are any of you still interested? > > First priority goes to anybody willing to come up here and pick up all or part of the collection.? I will consider shipping if that is what it comes down to but the packing and transprotation will be expensive for the DS15 and extremely expensive for the other units. > I'm in DFW Texas area so a drive up to the far north is not in the cards.? But I just bought a DS10 on Ebay and paid around $50 shipping.? With this DS15 being in Canada I expect shipping to be more but I'd pay $200-300 for it if that's what it takes. I also know I think other have their dibs in first.? But if they wash out... -- John H. Reinhardt From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 22:45:21 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 20:45:21 -0800 Subject: Jesse and the ebay mess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 3:23 PM Joseph Zatarski via cctalk wrote: > > >Sorry, but this doesn't really check out... > > *snip* > > With regards to my last message, I should also note that I did notice the > ebay auction shipping locations do not all match the location listed in > Jesse's email. This is interesting at least, but then some auctions do > match land o' lakes, FL > > Does Cypress-Tech have multiple locations? I recently bought an HP A-Series CPU board from "jmann23". The listing said the item location was Clearwater, Florida. The FedEx tracking showed that it originated in Pittsburgh, PA. The board arrived as described, passed the 24612A CPU diagnostics, and booted RTE-A, no problems. Did I care that it was shipped from PA instead of FL? No. From jesse at cypress-tech.co Thu Jan 24 13:08:36 2019 From: jesse at cypress-tech.co (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 14:08:36 -0500 Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups In-Reply-To: References: <007001d4b25b$520d04e0$f6270ea0$@classiccmp.org> <035728a4-5d19-2370-8cf5-2f6b2984258a@cypress-tech.co> Message-ID: The cheapest I have is a 947RX, its $725.00 for that. I have a Single-ended 4GB boot and 128MB in the configuration. If you want I can install a storage drive, more memory, tape drive, or what ever you need. If you want something newer than the 9x7 line, I have a few 918 boxes, I quoted one below. I can load 6.5 or 7.5. It comes with a 30-day warranty and limited set-up support. HP 3000 947RX Server 128MB Memory 4GB SCSI-2 Internal Boot Disk Drive MPE/iX Pre-loaded $725.00 HP 3000 918LX Server 128MB ECC Memory 4GB SCSI-2 Internal Boot Disk Drive MPE/iX Pre-loaded $800.00 On 1/24/19 12:58 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote: > Do you have any MPE systems that would be interesting for a hobbiest > but not too expensive? > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 10:13 AM Jesse Dougherty via cctalk > > wrote: > > how about 50 bucks? > > Jesse > > Cypress Tech > > > On 1/23/19 6:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > How much would you charge for the following? > > > > a 12922, (part of a 3 board mux set for TSB) > From jesse at cypress-tech.co Thu Jan 24 13:27:16 2019 From: jesse at cypress-tech.co (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 14:27:16 -0500 Subject: WTB - HP 25567-60003 & A2263-66536 LAN cards Message-ID: <03a280ce-a230-c382-39aa-d564e1c402b1@cypress-tech.co> If anyone has and they want to sell or trade, I'm in need of... 25567-60003?? LAN card EISA board - for HP 700 series workstations A2263-66536?? LAN / RS232 board - for the 712 series workstations Thanks Jesse Cypress Technology Inc From jesse at cypress-tech.com Thu Jan 24 17:52:45 2019 From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 18:52:45 -0500 Subject: WTB - HP 25567-60003 & A2263-66536 LAN cards Message-ID: If anyone has and they want to sell or trade, I'm in need of... 25567-60003?? LAN card EISA board - for HP 9000 7xx series workstations A2263-66536?? LAN / RS232 board - for the 9000 712 series workstations Thanks Jesse Cypress Technology Inc From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 04:29:52 2019 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 10:29:52 +0000 Subject: TRS80 Model 3/4 help in Fremont OH Message-ID: Hi folks, I've been chatting to someone who has a TRS80 Model 4 that's giving him a horizontal sync issue, is there anyone around the Fremont area who could give him a hand with it? Cheers -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From leec2124 at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 08:07:44 2019 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 06:07:44 -0800 Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups In-Reply-To: References: <007001d4b25b$520d04e0$f6270ea0$@classiccmp.org> <035728a4-5d19-2370-8cf5-2f6b2984258a@cypress-tech.co> Message-ID: FYI on the HP 3000 and 9000 systems make sure you get one that has a field replaceable clock battery. Some early models did not (e.g. 917) and after a few years the system becomes a brick. :-( Lee C. On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 9:37 PM Jesse Dougherty via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The cheapest I have is a 947RX, its $725.00 for that. I have a > Single-ended 4GB boot and 128MB in the configuration. If you want I can > install a storage drive, more memory, tape drive, or what ever you need. > If you want something newer than the 9x7 line, I have a few 918 boxes, I > quoted one below. I can load 6.5 or 7.5. It comes with a 30-day warranty > and limited set-up support. > > HP 3000 947RX Server > 128MB Memory > 4GB SCSI-2 Internal Boot Disk Drive > MPE/iX Pre-loaded > $725.00 > > HP 3000 918LX Server > 128MB ECC Memory > 4GB SCSI-2 Internal Boot Disk Drive > MPE/iX Pre-loaded > $800.00 > > On 1/24/19 12:58 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote: > > Do you have any MPE systems that would be interesting for a hobbiest > > but not too expensive? > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 10:13 AM Jesse Dougherty via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > how about 50 bucks? > > > > Jesse > > > > Cypress Tech > > > > > > On 1/23/19 6:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > How much would you charge for the following? > > > > > > a 12922, (part of a 3 board mux set for TSB) > > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 25 08:53:44 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 15:53:44 +0100 (CET) Subject: IBM 5100 Message-ID: Hello to all IBM 5100 owners, I have started disassembling and commenting the Executable ROS of the 5100 that a kind soul has exctracted and provided me with the dump. I've come across an inconsistency with the Maintenance Information Manual as found on the net. I have both SY31-0405-2 and SY31-0405-3. The issue is the description of the control I/O commands for device 1 (non-executable ROS selects). The manual says bit 12 is APL select and bit 13 is BASIC/Common select (page C-4), and that matches the block diagram on page 5-20. But in fact, the code uses the bits as defined for the 5110 (12=select BASIC, 13=select APL, 14=select Common) and therefore, the 5100 must be different from the system described in the MIMs. So here are two questions: - Does someone have a newer version of the MIM, i.e. SY31-0405-4 or greater? A scan would be wonderful, especially because the scans for the available MIMs are horrible... - Are there known major revision changes in the 5100 line? Christian PS: I really mean 5100, not 5110 or 5120 ;-) From pat at vax11.net Fri Jan 25 10:46:13 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:46:13 -0500 Subject: More TeleVideo, system repair Message-ID: I have the next one up, after fighting a bit with Blogger. It details my efforts to resurrect a TS-1605 IBM compatible system that I got off ebay (and probably spent too much money on). https://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2019/01/televideo-systems-part-iii-ts-1605-pcxt.html Pat From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 25 11:32:00 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:32:00 -0800 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/25/19 6:53 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > - Does someone have a newer version of the MIM, i.e. SY31-0405-4 or greater? I could only find -3, which I've scanned I also added a bunch more manuals to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/5100 From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Jan 25 12:10:47 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 10:10:47 -0800 Subject: More TeleVideo, system repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I rescued one of these from a recycler in PDX a few years ago. The recycler thought it was a 1603. It was interesting, but not something that I collect, so I donated it to the Living History Museum. alan On 1/25/19 8:46 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > I have the next one up, after fighting a bit with Blogger. > > It details my efforts to resurrect a TS-1605 IBM compatible system that I > got off ebay (and probably spent too much money on). > > https://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2019/01/televideo-systems-part-iii-ts-1605-pcxt.html > > Pat From rlloken at telus.net Fri Jan 25 13:03:53 2019 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:03:53 -0700 (MST) Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: msjxg6AT706E9msjygS2ob References: msjxg6AT706E9msjygS2ob Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jan 2019, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > I also know I think other have their dibs in first.? But if they wash out... Thanks John, I will keep you in mind. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jan 25 14:13:59 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:13:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Sparcom Drive95 3.5 inch disk drive for the 95lx References: <2121888826.1192894.1548447239015.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2121888826.1192894.1548447239015@mail.yahoo.com> Sparcom Drive95 3.5 inch disk drive for the 95lx Both? NOS in? box? was unsold inventory? from? computer exchange? ?in Phx? (my old? company...? ?these turned up in relatives? garage...)? ?one? has? manuals and all paper? work? one? has? no manuals and paperwork? but? NOS I will offer? for? ?sale? and? ? ?even better if? you? buy? both. you? buy? both!? Offered? for? offers here? ? next? stop? ebay? if? no one here interested.? Sold? as? is.Ed# From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jan 25 14:16:42 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:16:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Parts Pieces and Folks References: <1678480104.1195018.1548447402934.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1678480104.1195018.1548447402934@mail.yahoo.com> this? did not seem to? go though? when I? sent? as? a reply.-------------------------------------------------------------------- Glad? to? Hear? Jay -? I guess the? timeshare systems? were about the only? thing? I? ever? saw? those board? sets in. ok~To? refile my? slightly? prior? ?message under? ?perhaps a better? title I have? one? foot in each HP community? ?The? real production one and the? Collection of? vintage HP Gear? one. I have had no complaints about? Jesse? ? from the? ?people? the? do data processing? with HP machines and have always? found him to be? friendly and timely in responses. This? goes? for? Cindy? as? well. Be? nice? to our? dealer? friends? they? can? help you. Maybe? not? today? but? ?you? will need? assistance some day and it is good to have them there. well darn it... be? nice to everyone. eh? Ed Sharpe archivist? for SMECC In a message dated 1/25/2019 10:36:09 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctech at classiccmp.org writes: Kudos to Jesse for working with me offlist, I feel I've gotten a good deal. I appreciate the offers to help purchase, very much, but I got this taken care of directly with Jesse and I'm happy. We have to understand, as others pointed out, that if no one speaks up for stuff at a price that can keep the parts houses in business then the parts won't be around. By the same token, the parts houses have to know we can't pay typical full price that corporations/military can. We must be willing to pay something above scrap value, of course. I ask folks to keep an open mind and give Jesse a fair shake moving forward. Best, J From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Fri Jan 25 15:58:00 2019 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:58:00 +0000 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Richard, Thank you for replying in such a considered way. Please see below for comments. On 25/01/2019 00:07, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > All of you have at one time expressed interest in all or part of this > rack full of Alphaservers and one of you even talked about driving a truck > up from Montana and taking it all home. All I can think of at this moment is how beautiful it must be to go on a road trip in Montana. > Are any of you still interested? I remain tremendously interested in learning about AlphaServers and acuiring another one or two. But I live in London, UK. I was considering paying for the cheapest slow seamail. Other people have less crazy ideas. I doubt that my idea is appealing to Richard either. > First priority goes to anybody willing to come up here and pick up all > or part of the collection.? I will consider shipping if that is what it > comes down to but the packing and transprotation will be expensive for > the DS15 and extremely expensive for the other units. >From reading the rest of this thread, it looks as though you've already found your collector/s and arranged a date. I'm very happy that these are going to a good home. It's fabulous that the flame is carrying on. For future reference, if anybody sees AlphaServers or similarly interesting hardware closer to home (UK or EU), then please do let me know! Thank you!! Kind regards, Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From jim.manley at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 17:04:49 2019 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:04:49 -0700 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Andrew, If it?s any consolation, the users of these components will be high school students in an extremely rural area at the lowest level of poverty in the U.S. The students are eager to learn computing and networking principles, and these will provide opportunities for that in spades. The performance level of these, compared with current technology, is unimportant, as getting the right answers is more significant than how fast they were computed. These components were used for data services, so that fulfills the trifecta of computing, data structures, and networking (and at fiber channel speeds, AIUI). We?ll make some videos eventually as they puzzle their way through getting software licenses acquired and installed, things are configured to work together, and we get proof-of-life command line prompts. I hope you are able to acquire your own Alphaservers and whatever other techno-toys you covet in the near future. All the Best, Jim On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 2:58 PM Andrew Luke Nesbit < ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org> wrote: > Dear Richard, > > Thank you for replying in such a considered way. Please see below for > comments. > > On 25/01/2019 00:07, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > > > All of you have at one time expressed interest in all or part of this > > rack full of Alphaservers and one of you even talked about driving a > truck > > up from Montana and taking it all home. > > All I can think of at this moment is how beautiful it must be to go on a > road trip in Montana. > > > Are any of you still interested? > > I remain tremendously interested in learning about AlphaServers and > acuiring another one or two. > > But I live in London, UK. I was considering paying for the cheapest > slow seamail. Other people have less crazy ideas. I doubt that my idea > is appealing to Richard either. > > > First priority goes to anybody willing to come up here and pick up all > > or part of the collection. I will consider shipping if that is what it > > comes down to but the packing and transprotation will be expensive for > > the DS15 and extremely expensive for the other units. > > From reading the rest of this thread, it looks as though you've already > found your collector/s and arranged a date. > > I'm very happy that these are going to a good home. It's fabulous that > the flame is carrying on. > > For future reference, if anybody sees AlphaServers or similarly > interesting hardware closer to home (UK or EU), then please do let me > know! Thank you!! > > Kind regards, > > Andrew > From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Fri Jan 25 19:41:06 2019 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 01:41:06 +0000 Subject: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Jim, Please see my response inline... On 25/01/2019 23:04, Jim Manley wrote: > Hi Andrew, Hi Jim, > If it?s any consolation I needed no consolation because I already knew that these machines are going to a good home.? But your message is great to read.? This sounds like an amazing project. > the users of these components will be high > school students in an extremely rural area at the lowest level of > poverty in the U.S.? The students are eager to learn? computing and > networking principles, and these will provide opportunities for that in > spades. I think that learning foundational principles on real AlphaServers, with a good teacher, /actually sets up students in greater stead compared to computers based in the x86_84 universe, for example/.? I mean this on many levels and across varying dimensions. Kind of like how I learned computer architecture from Hennessey & Patterson using MIPS and a RISC ISA.? The concepts translated easily and well.? All you need is genuine interest. I don't know much about the socioeconomic profile of Montana.? I spent much of my in many parts of the US, mostly for personal reasons, and I loved the country in general.? Unfortunately I never had a chance to go to Montana. > The performance level of these, compared with current technology, is > unimportant, as getting the right answers is more significant than how > fast they were computed. Are you referring writing networked computer programs to solve problems? I was discussing with my partner earlier this week that knowing about computing skills, like how networking _really_ works, is critical future knowledge for people who want to stay street smart in the universe of electrons whizzing by.? It's going to be seriously important. > These components were used for data services, > so that fulfills the trifecta of computing, data structures, and > networking (and at fiber channel speeds, AIUI). This trifecta of "computing, data structures, and networking" intrgues me.? Is it part of some curriculum?? Or is it a grouping of computing concepts that you have identified as being meaningful?? In the second sense I think I get it if I think hard enough. > We?ll make some videos eventually as they puzzle their way through > getting software licenses acquired and installed, things are configured > to work together, and we get proof-of-life command line prompts. I have a huge and active interest in education.? I would be very interested to hear about how you get on with this. > I hope you are able to acquire your own Alphaservers and whatever other > techno-toys you covet in the near future. I don't like phrases like "techno-toys", regardless of how they are intended to come across.? Similarly, words like "gizmos" and "gadgets".? They rub me the wrong way but it is not a conversation I want to have right now. I'm not looking for AlphaServers to fulfil some sort of fetish.? Rather, I have a specific project use case for them, and I would like to include them in this project I'm working on. I wish you all the very best in this work, Jim, and I believe that motivated students will appreciate the value of something clearly amazing like an AlphaServer.? As I mentioned above, I've got a genuine interest in education and would love to hear how it goes.? Do you mind if I ping you again in 6-12 months? Kind regards, Andrew > On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 2:58 PM Andrew Luke Nesbit > > wrote: > > Dear Richard, > > Thank you for replying in such a considered way.? Please see below for > comments. > > On 25/01/2019 00:07, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > > > All of you have at one time expressed interest in all or part of > this > > rack full of Alphaservers and one of you even talked about > driving a truck > > up from Montana and taking it all home. > > All I can think of at this moment is how beautiful it must be to > go on a > road trip in Montana. > > > Are any of you still interested? > > I remain tremendously interested in learning about AlphaServers and > acuiring another one or two. > > But I live in London, UK.? I was considering paying for the cheapest > slow seamail.? Other people have less crazy ideas.? I doubt that > my idea > is appealing to Richard either. > > > First priority goes to anybody willing to come up here and pick > up all > > or part of the collection.? I will consider shipping if that is > what it > > comes down to but the packing and transprotation will be > expensive for > > the DS15 and extremely expensive for the other units. > > From reading the rest of this thread, it looks as though you've > already > found your collector/s and arranged a date. > > I'm very happy that these are going to a good home.? It's fabulous > that > the flame is carrying on. > > For future reference, if anybody sees AlphaServers or similarly > interesting hardware closer to home (UK or EU), then please do let me > know!? Thank you!! > > Kind regards, > > Andrew > > > -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Jan 25 21:58:46 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:58:46 -0700 Subject: Scsi and FDD emulation with RPI Message-ID: In Japanese, but interesting. http://www.geocities.jp/kugimoto0715/index.html Talks about interfacing old school high current 5V interfaces like FDD or SASI/SCSI into into lower voltage lower current RPI pins. Warner From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sat Jan 26 03:50:45 2019 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 10:50:45 +0100 Subject: Scsi and FDD emulation with RPI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190126095045.px7sidti7ylloor2@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 08:58:46PM -0700, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > In Japanese, but interesting. > http://www.geocities.jp/kugimoto0715/index.html > Talks about interfacing old school high current 5V interfaces like FDD or > SASI/SCSI into into lower voltage lower current RPI pins. Converting between "high" voltage 5V TTL to contemporary 3V logic is a general problem with a number of canned solutions offered by chip manufacturers. My favourite hobbyist project in this particular vein is described at http://amigadrive.blogspot.com/. It has a Raspberry Pi emulate the weird Amiga floppy format, including a special built-in disk image that provides a menuing system to manage the other images. That's a much more polished interface than the Goteks offer. The circuit diagram is of interest for those not specifically interested in Amiga software. Since the Shugart interface does not have bidirectional or tri-state signals, it is sufficient to use a couple of resistors as a voltage divider to convert from 5V to 3V, and for the other direction, some sort of buffer or inverter (they use a 74LS06) which is OK with "1"s as low as 3V. You can't get cheaper than a couple of resistors and a random chip pried out of the carpet. Bidirectional/tri-state busses such as SCSI are much more annoying to interface with, and generally need funkier components. Usually they're annoying surface-mount packaging, but that Japanese article has chosen the 74LS641 which is also available in DIP. Now I'm aware that a DIP level-shifter chip exists, some of my projects that were on ice due to not wanting to deal with SMD components might get dusted off. I am quite surprised that the Raspberry Pi is fast enough for SCSI, and even more so that it is apparently running stock Linux rather than something custom to meet hard real-time requirements as is the case for the Amiga floppy project. From tingox at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 07:45:23 2019 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 14:45:23 +0100 Subject: Scsi and FDD emulation with RPI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 4:59 AM Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > In Japanese, but interesting. > > http://www.geocities.jp/kugimoto0715/index.html > > Talks about interfacing old school high current 5V interfaces like FDD or > SASI/SCSI into into lower voltage lower current RPI pins. > > Warner FWIW, also on Hackaday: https://hackaday.com/2017/05/01/the-raspberry-pi-becomes-a-scsi-device/ -- mvh Torfinn From alan at alanlee.org Sat Jan 26 08:48:51 2019 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 09:48:51 -0500 Subject: Scsi and FDD emulation with RPI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2019-01-26 08:45, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 4:59 AM Warner Losh via cctalk > wrote: >> >> In Japanese, but interesting. >> >> http://www.geocities.jp/kugimoto0715/index.html >> >> Talks about interfacing old school high current 5V interfaces like FDD >> or >> SASI/SCSI into into lower voltage lower current RPI pins. >> >> Warner > > FWIW, also on Hackaday: > https://hackaday.com/2017/05/01/the-raspberry-pi-becomes-a-scsi-device/ And my personal favorite: https://hackaday.com/2017/04/12/hackaday-prize-entry-real-hard-drives-in-the-raspberry-pi/ From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Jan 26 09:10:35 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 07:10:35 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed In-Reply-To: <20190124164427.05B5918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190124164427.05B5918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 24, 2019, at 8:44 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> Don't forget the quad-height /73 board, it's much nicer than the >> dual-height boards. > > That's the KDJ11-B, no? That's there. Okay, I obviously missed it. >> Is a /44 really worth that much now?!?! > > Hey, one just went for more than that: eBait #183624991924, $3K! Admittedly, > that one was loaded, but the page does say "a number of factors will cause > them to vary considerably from the numbers given here ... Exactly which > peripherals and memory are included". > > But I did adjust the number a bit - the boards are going for about $50 each, > and add in a BA11-A, it's probably $700 for a bare machine. Actually, I > really need to check all the numbers. That price might have been due to the RM02 or tape drive. Mine has a 2nd rack with Dual RL02?s, as well as an RX02 and a TU58 in the main rack. I tend to think that?s likely a slightly more common config. The nice thing about mine is the SCSI adapter. I?d picked up a 3rd rack for it, with a 9-track drive, but gave that away to Jim Willing before he left town to buy a bowling alley. > But I think I'd rather get the QBUS boxes sorted out first; I pretty much > only know the BA11's. If someone could tell me what later boxes to list, > above the BA23, (which I also need an image of), that would be very helpful. The most obvious is the BA123. A /73 in a BA123 makes for a *VERY* nice system, especially if you have removable SCSI disk trays. Something that comes to mind is the DECserver 500/550, it?s a PDP-11/53 with a different PROM. IIRC, it was typically in a rack-mount BA213 chassis. I think that I have at least parts for one around here somewhere. Zane From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 26 09:10:59 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 10:10:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Houston stash sorting this coming Saturday Message-ID: <20190126151059.2E43618C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Electronics Plus > I did not bring the stuff home. ... Call John Adler ... he owns the > stuff in the sheds. Now I am completely confused. What happened to the online spread-sheet that some of us filled out? Did that go to him? If so, does the fact that we've heard nothing means our offers were not interesting? If not, are we now supposed to call instead? Noel From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Jan 26 09:27:03 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 07:27:03 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed In-Reply-To: <20190124164957.2ADE518C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190124164957.2ADE518C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: >> From: Paul Koning > >> Was the 11/74 ever shipped? > > I don't think so. (Well, I vaguely recall rumours of a couple going out on > beta-test; too busy to chase down where I saw that.) > > Noel According to my recollection some PDP-11/74 systems were shipped up to a power company in Canada, and they refused to return them. Though it looks like there is some question as to if that happened. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/pdp-11$2F74/vmsnet.pdp-11/EmoBI6b0Yhk/yKMZZtM8pboJ It looks like there was also a quad-cpu 11/45, I?d forgotten that. Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 26 12:15:32 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 10:15:32 -0800 Subject: Houston stash sorting this coming Saturday In-Reply-To: <20190126151059.2E43618C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190126151059.2E43618C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <49140f69-4470-d895-8ade-30cf493bd7aa@bitsavers.org> On 1/26/19 7:10 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > If not, are we now > supposed to call instead? looks like it. the cherry pickers picked. what a collossal waste of time From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 26 12:17:41 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 10:17:41 -0800 Subject: Houston stash sorting this coming Saturday In-Reply-To: <49140f69-4470-d895-8ade-30cf493bd7aa@bitsavers.org> References: <20190126151059.2E43618C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <49140f69-4470-d895-8ade-30cf493bd7aa@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4a967787-c87f-35b7-e469-7718f1b8a0fd@bitsavers.org> On 1/26/19 10:15 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > what a collossal waste of time > after holding my nose and signing up for 'deskauthority' to find this out From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jan 26 15:22:11 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 13:22:11 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem In-Reply-To: <848511386.475861.1548040294831@email.ionos.com> References: <20190120145528.6949E18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4AE2184D-0C06-4E6E-A80F-01C6A3AEF040@fritzm.org> <848511386.475861.1548040294831@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 20, 2019, at 7:11 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > Jack Ganssle wrote a couple of articles about memory testing and failure modes... > http://www.ganssle.com/articles/aramrom.htm > http://www.ganssle.com/articles/ramtest.htm Thanks for the pointers, Will; I found the articles practical and useful. I have posted the latest version of my diagnostic over on my project blog at fritzm.github.io. The latest news is that I did repairs on all the implicated DRAMs on my MS11-L, and now both my diagnostics and MAINDEC ZQMC are passing consistently. I am also now able to successfully run the heavyweight KT11-C exerciser MAINDEC. There is a lingering issue with parity abort handling -- it looks as if my 11/45 is a very early model and as such my CPU boards are early etches and apparently have not had all ECO's applied relating to parity. My CPU hardware will console halt on UNIBUS parity error, rather than trap to 114. So MAINDECs etc that check for this trap fail (halt) on my machine. Well anyway, after all this, I still have the exact same failure mode with *both* RSTS/E and V6 Unix! Sad panda... I don't think this is directly related to the parity abort issue, since Noel informs me that V6 Unix doesn't care at all, and I can also see under both OS's that after the recent repairs no parity faults are occurring on the MS11 (it has an LED for that). The KT11 seems really solid now, too. But I suppose it could be some other early-CPU incompato? I think this means I have to go back to working the problem from the other end -- analyze the core/crash files for clues on exactly what it going wrong. Paul: I'll see about retrieving a crash file from RSTS, now that I've cleaned up the memory system issues. cheers, --FritzM. From bear at typewritten.org Fri Jan 25 11:29:44 2019 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:29:44 -0800 Subject: Hewlett-Packard 3000, 9000, Itanium (HP-UX & MPE/iX) Servers, Storage Arrays, Replacement Parts, Maintenance, & Disaster back-ups In-Reply-To: References: <007001d4b25b$520d04e0$f6270ea0$@classiccmp.org> <035728a4-5d19-2370-8cf5-2f6b2984258a@cypress-tech.co> Message-ID: <1F0EED49-54F1-4FED-917E-F01C6007E4E9@typewritten.org> On Jan 25, 2019, at 6:07 AM, Lee Courtney via cctech wrote: > FYI on the HP 3000 and 9000 systems make sure you get one that has a field > replaceable clock battery. Some early models did not (e.g. 917) and after a > few years the system becomes a brick. :-( Yes, the DS1287 is soldered to the backplane. It is not that big of a deal. I literally just this week replaced the one in my 917LX. ok bear. -- until further notice From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jan 25 11:35:53 2019 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:35:53 -0600 Subject: OT Parts houses & scrappers Message-ID: <003e01d4b4d4$6bbc0e60$43342b20$@classiccmp.org> Kudos to Jesse for working with me offlist, I feel I've gotten a good deal. I appreciate the offers to help purchase, very much, but I got this taken care of directly with Jesse and I'm happy. We have to understand, as others pointed out, that if no one speaks up for stuff at a price that can keep the parts houses in business then the parts won't be around. By the same token, the parts houses have to know we can't pay typical full price that corporations/military can. We must be willing to pay something above scrap value, of course. I ask folks to keep an open mind and give Jesse a fair shake moving forward. Best, J From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jan 25 11:43:54 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 10:43:54 -0700 Subject: OT Parts houses & scrappers In-Reply-To: <003e01d4b4d4$6bbc0e60$43342b20$@classiccmp.org> References: <003e01d4b4d4$6bbc0e60$43342b20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 1/25/19 10:35 AM, Jay West via cctech wrote: > We have to understand, as others pointed out, that if no one speaks up > for stuff at a price that can keep the parts houses in business then the > parts won't be around. By the same token, the parts houses have to know > we can't pay typical full price that corporations/military can. We must > be willing to pay something above scrap value, of course. > > I ask folks to keep an open mind and give Jesse a fair shake moving > forward. Fair points. I would think knowing a minimum scrap value plus some reasonable handling fees would be for things when conducting such deals. It's not that I'm trying to low ball anyone. It's more that I want to know if I should even enter the game if I can't reasonably compete and as such must watch with a tear in my eye as business happens. I simply can't afford everything that I want. :-( -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jesse at cypress-tech.com Fri Jan 25 11:17:59 2019 From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:17:59 -0500 Subject: Jesse and the ebay mess Message-ID: <065993b0-f880-9731-bbaa-db5890434c98@cypress-tech.com> Holly smokes... 1st, Cindy thanks for calling me and vouching for me on this list but let me clear something up here.... A. the ebay ads are mine and I put all content up there. B. there reflects different locations (Largo, Clearwater, Land o lakes) all around the Tampa area. We have been in that area since about 1995 and address have changed several times because we have moved . C. The ebay ads are not all corrected with the current address since I didn't thing that was going to be any kind of issue ever. I have like 400 running ads and you have to individually correct each one.. again, I really never and up until this moment thought it was ever an issue since selling on ebay since 1997. D. some of the older 1k and older board ship from Pittsburgh because thats where I split my time between Tampa and Pittsburgh and the really old stuff is in Pittsburgh. E. I never even posted my ebay stuff on here, I did an intro and posted some stuff I was looking for.. Heck, I never even contributed to the ebay thread. Jesse From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jan 25 11:47:50 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:47:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Jesse and the ebay mess References: <84103834.1140662.1548438470650.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <84103834.1140662.1548438470650@mail.yahoo.com> I have? one? foot in each HP community? ?The? real production one and the? Collection of? vintage HP Gear? one. I have had no complaints about? Jesse? ? from the? ?People? the? do data processing? with HP machines and have always? found him to be? friendly and timely in responses. This? goes? for? Cindy? as? well. Be? nice? to our? dealer? friends? they? can? help you. Maybe? not? today? but? ?you? will need? assistance some day and it is good to have them there. well darn it... be? nice to everyone. eh? Ed Sharpe archivist? for SMECC In a message dated 1/25/2019 10:18:12 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctech at classiccmp.org writes: From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Fri Jan 25 12:04:29 2019 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:04:29 +0000 Subject: Jesse and the ebay mess In-Reply-To: <065993b0-f880-9731-bbaa-db5890434c98@cypress-tech.com> References: <065993b0-f880-9731-bbaa-db5890434c98@cypress-tech.com> Message-ID: <5DEE5056-C4D3-495C-B15C-982851ECF598@andrewnesbit.org> I've been reading all this hot air blowing around since Jesse first posted. I feel that _maybe_ a non-thing has turned into a big thing for no good reason. There's no prize at the end of all this, it's lose-lose for everybody concerned. If people were so concerned about Jesse selling precious HP hardware for scrap metal, then they could have written to him personally and asked him. Personally, as an Alpha newbie and enthusiast, I'm just happy and glad to have one more potential source of information, help, or hardware if I ever need it. Sent from my mobile phone > On 25 Jan 2019, at 17:17, Jesse Dougherty via cctech wrote: > > Holly smokes... 1st, Cindy thanks for calling me and vouching for me on this list but let me clear something up here.... > > A. the ebay ads are mine and I put all content up there. > B. there reflects different locations (Largo, Clearwater, Land o lakes) all around the Tampa area. We have been in that area since about 1995 and address have changed several times because we have moved . > C. The ebay ads are not all corrected with the current address since I didn't thing that was going to be any kind of issue ever. I have like 400 running ads and you have to individually correct each one.. again, I really never and up until this moment thought it was ever an issue since selling on ebay since 1997. > D. some of the older 1k and older board ship from Pittsburgh because thats where I split my time between Tampa and Pittsburgh and the really old stuff is in Pittsburgh. > E. I never even posted my ebay stuff on here, I did an intro and posted some stuff I was looking for.. Heck, I never even contributed to the ebay thread. > > Jesse > From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jan 25 13:09:30 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:09:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT Parts houses & scrappers References: <1052058861.1193568.1548443370769.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1052058861.1193568.1548443370769@mail.yahoo.com> Glad? to? Hear? Jay -? I guess the? timeshare systems? were about the only? thing? I? ever? saw? those board? sets in. ok~To? refile my? slightly? prior? ?message under? ?perhaps a better? title I have? one? foot in each HP community? ?The? real production one and the? Collection of? vintage HP Gear? one. I have had no complaints about? Jesse? ? from the? ?people? the? do data processing? with HP machines and have always? found him to be? friendly and timely in responses. This? goes? for? Cindy? as? well. Be? nice? to our? dealer? friends? they? can? help you. Maybe? not? today? but? ?you? will need? assistance some day and it is good to have them there. well darn it... be? nice to everyone. eh? Ed Sharpe archivist? for SMECCIn a message dated 1/25/2019 10:36:09 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctech at classiccmp.org writes: Kudos to Jesse for working with me offlist, I feel I've gotten a good deal. I appreciate the offers to help purchase, very much, but I got this taken care of directly with Jesse and I'm happy. We have to understand, as others pointed out, that if no one speaks up for stuff at a price that can keep the parts houses in business then the parts won't be around. By the same token, the parts houses have to know we can't pay typical full price that corporations/military can. We must be willing to pay something above scrap value, of course. I ask folks to keep an open mind and give Jesse a fair shake moving forward. Best, J From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 14:40:05 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:40:05 -0800 Subject: OT Parts houses & scrappers In-Reply-To: <003e01d4b4d4$6bbc0e60$43342b20$@classiccmp.org> References: <003e01d4b4d4$6bbc0e60$43342b20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 9:48 AM Jay West via cctech wrote: > > Kudos to Jesse for working with me offlist, I feel I've gotten a good deal. I appreciate the offers to help purchase, very much, but I got this taken care of directly with Jesse and I'm happy. > > We have to understand, as others pointed o