From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Dec 1 01:32:55 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 23:32:55 -0800 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net> References: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net> Message-ID: <5d301bdc-95e6-62a5-d751-75a68c36ac1d@jwsss.com> On 11/30/2019 9:45 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: > On 11/30/2019 8:34 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> Here is the contents I have. >> >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 915852 Sep? 9? 2000 bootdisk.img.gz >> drwxrwxrwx+ 1 1003 nogroup??? 270 Oct? 9? 2014 daveb >> drwxrwxrwx+ 1?? 98????? 98??? 674 Apr? 9? 2018 downloads-stack180 >> drwxrwxrwx+ 1?? 98????? 98??? 274 Apr? 9? 2018 gide >> drwxrwxrwx+ 1?? 98????? 98??? 954 Apr? 9? 2018 hal-bower >> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup??? 574 Oct? 9? 2014 p112 >> drwxrwxrwx+ 1?? 98????? 98??? 552 Apr? 9? 2018 p112-2018 >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 331632 Sep 19? 2014 p112-doc.pdf >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup? 14305 Sep? 9? 2000 rawrite.exe >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 357891 Oct 22? 2005 sc102205.img.gz >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 445535 Nov 11? 2005 sc111105.img.gz >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 436332 Nov 30? 2005 sc113005.img.gz >> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup?? 3660 Oct? 9? 2014 tcj-archive >> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup??? 268 Oct? 9? 2014 web >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 660331 Oct 17? 2005 zs101805.img.gz >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 513625 Oct 21? 2005 zs102205.img.gz >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 612086 Nov 11? 2005 zs111105.img.gz >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 552969 Nov 30? 2005 zs113005.img.gz >> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup??? 260 Oct? 9? 2014 zsdos >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 554479 Apr 22? 2009 zsdos.pdf > > What's in the p112-2018 directory? > > > total 6192 -rwxrwxrwx+ 1? 98?????? 98 915852 Sep? 9? 2000 bootdisk.img.gz -rwxrwxrwx+ 1? 98?????? 98 119042 Oct 31? 2004 files.zip -rw-r--r--+ 1 jws hyperbox?? 1627 Apr? 9? 2018 link.txt -rwxrwxrwx+ 1? 98?????? 98 763392 Aug 16? 2016 P112-012.PcbDoc drwxrwxrwx+ 1? 98?????? 98???? 26 Apr? 9? 2018 P112 CPU Single Board Computer Kit_files -rwxrwxrwx+ 1? 98?????? 98? 12071 Apr? 9? 2018 P112 CPU Single Board Computer Kit.html -rwxrwxrwx+ 1? 98?????? 98 334019 Oct? 8? 2014 p112-doc.pdf -rwxrwxrwx+ 1? 98?????? 98? 14305 Sep? 9? 2000 rawrite.exe -rwxrwxrwx+ 1? 98?????? 98?? 8337 Apr? 9? 2018 rawwrite.html -rwxrwxrwx+ 1? 98?????? 98 357891 Oct 22? 2005 sc102205.img.gz -rwxrwxrwx+ 1? 98?????? 98 445535 Nov 11? 2005 sc111105.img.gz -rwxrwxrwx+ 1? 98?????? 98 436332 Nov 30? 2005 sc113005.img.gz -rwxrwxrwx+ 1? 98?????? 98 660331 Oct 17? 2005 zs101805.img.gz -rwxrwxrwx+ 1? 98?????? 98 513625 Oct 21? 2005 zs102205.img.gz -rwxrwxrwx+ 1? 98?????? 98 612086 Nov 11? 2005 zs111105.img.gz -rwxrwxrwx+ 1? 98?????? 98 552969 Nov 30? 2005 zs113005.img.gz -rwxrwxrwx+ 1? 98?????? 98 554479 Apr 22? 2009 zsdos.pdf Contents of the 661.org site.? I pretty much sent the links file below in another posting, but here it is anyway. I bought a p112 in 2018 (hence the dir name), and had Terry Gulczynski assemble it. https://661.org/p112/ Links.txt http://p112.sourceforge.net/ ??? Here's a Sourceforge page for all sorts of information on getting ??? the most out of your P112. http://stack180.com/ ??? TG Consulting is where you'll find Terry Gulczynski's writings and ??? a schedule of services. Terry created the new Z-System with ZSDOS ??? for the P112 and updated the boot rom. He can assemble and test a ??? P112 kit for you or supply a GIDE interface board among other ??? things. http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/p112/p112.html ??? Dave Brooks is the designer of the P112. http://www.classiccmp.org/cpmarchives/cpm/Miscellany/BDOS-CCP/ZSDOS/HalBower's%20Home%20Page.htm ??? Hal Bower did lots of stuff in 1996 and now to help the P112 be ??? all it can be. Lots of CP/M tools and information can be found ??? at his page. http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/z80_systems.html ??? Herb Johnson is another person who was helpful in getting my first ??? batch of P112 kits ready for use. He was the first to import and ??? sell the original GIDE interface in the United States. He also ??? had some influence on its design. See also this page for GIDE ??? history and other implementations of GIDE. http://www.feedle.net/ ??? Professor Feedlebom was enormously helpful in getting stuff to ??? and from the board-manufacturer and board-stuffer, and with ??? financing. http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm ??? Daves Old Computers - Disk/Software Images. Boot disks for lots ??? of different vintage computers are here. It's not nearly the ??? size of Don Maslin's lost archive, but it's a start. From tingox at gmail.com Sun Dec 1 09:59:37 2019 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 16:59:37 +0100 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: <5d301bdc-95e6-62a5-d751-75a68c36ac1d@jwsss.com> References: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net> <5d301bdc-95e6-62a5-d751-75a68c36ac1d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: FWIW, there might be more users of P112 (old and new) on the RetroBrew Computers Forum https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/forum/ HTH On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 8:33 AM jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 11/30/2019 9:45 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/30/2019 8:34 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> > >> Here is the contents I have. > >> > >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 915852 Sep 9 2000 bootdisk.img.gz > >> drwxrwxrwx+ 1 1003 nogroup 270 Oct 9 2014 daveb > >> drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 674 Apr 9 2018 downloads-stack180 > >> drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 274 Apr 9 2018 gide > >> drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 954 Apr 9 2018 hal-bower > >> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup 574 Oct 9 2014 p112 > >> drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 552 Apr 9 2018 p112-2018 > >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 331632 Sep 19 2014 p112-doc.pdf > >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 14305 Sep 9 2000 rawrite.exe > >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 357891 Oct 22 2005 sc102205.img.gz > >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 445535 Nov 11 2005 sc111105.img.gz > >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 436332 Nov 30 2005 sc113005.img.gz > >> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup 3660 Oct 9 2014 tcj-archive > >> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup 268 Oct 9 2014 web > >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 660331 Oct 17 2005 zs101805.img.gz > >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 513625 Oct 21 2005 zs102205.img.gz > >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 612086 Nov 11 2005 zs111105.img.gz > >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 552969 Nov 30 2005 zs113005.img.gz > >> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup 260 Oct 9 2014 zsdos > >> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 554479 Apr 22 2009 zsdos.pdf > > > > What's in the p112-2018 directory? > > > > > > > > total 6192 > -rwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 915852 Sep 9 2000 bootdisk.img.gz > -rwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 119042 Oct 31 2004 files.zip > -rw-r--r--+ 1 jws hyperbox 1627 Apr 9 2018 link.txt > -rwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 763392 Aug 16 2016 P112-012.PcbDoc > drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 26 Apr 9 2018 P112 CPU Single Board > Computer Kit_files > -rwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 12071 Apr 9 2018 P112 CPU Single Board > Computer Kit.html > -rwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 334019 Oct 8 2014 p112-doc.pdf > -rwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 14305 Sep 9 2000 rawrite.exe > -rwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 8337 Apr 9 2018 rawwrite.html > -rwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 357891 Oct 22 2005 sc102205.img.gz > -rwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 445535 Nov 11 2005 sc111105.img.gz > -rwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 436332 Nov 30 2005 sc113005.img.gz > -rwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 660331 Oct 17 2005 zs101805.img.gz > -rwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 513625 Oct 21 2005 zs102205.img.gz > -rwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 612086 Nov 11 2005 zs111105.img.gz > -rwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 552969 Nov 30 2005 zs113005.img.gz > -rwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 554479 Apr 22 2009 zsdos.pdf > > > Contents of the 661.org site. I pretty much sent the links file below > in another posting, but here it is anyway. > > I bought a p112 in 2018 (hence the dir name), and had Terry Gulczynski > assemble it. > > https://661.org/p112/ > > Links.txt > > http://p112.sourceforge.net/ > Here's a Sourceforge page for all sorts of information on getting > the most out of your P112. > http://stack180.com/ > TG Consulting is where you'll find Terry Gulczynski's writings and > a schedule of services. Terry created the new Z-System with ZSDOS > for the P112 and updated the boot rom. He can assemble and test a > P112 kit for you or supply a GIDE interface board among other > things. > http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/p112/p112.html > Dave Brooks is the designer of the P112. > http://www.classiccmp.org/cpmarchives/cpm/Miscellany/BDOS-CCP/ZSDOS/HalBower's%20Home%20Page.htm > Hal Bower did lots of stuff in 1996 and now to help the P112 be > all it can be. Lots of CP/M tools and information can be found > at his page. > http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/z80_systems.html > Herb Johnson is another person who was helpful in getting my first > batch of P112 kits ready for use. He was the first to import and > sell the original GIDE interface in the United States. He also > had some influence on its design. See also this page for GIDE > history and other implementations of GIDE. > http://www.feedle.net/ > Professor Feedlebom was enormously helpful in getting stuff to > and from the board-manufacturer and board-stuffer, and with > financing. > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm > Daves Old Computers - Disk/Software Images. Boot disks for lots > of different vintage computers are here. It's not nearly the > size of Don Maslin's lost archive, but it's a start. > -- mvh Torfinn From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 1 10:26:00 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 08:26:00 -0800 Subject: System/36 Twin-Ax decode help In-Reply-To: <36aa7a0b6b593846c4e7442b27e19d8f@alanlee.org> References: <36aa7a0b6b593846c4e7442b27e19d8f@alanlee.org> Message-ID: On 11/30/19 8:59 PM, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > I might put this project on the shelf for a > while unless I can find more docs that explains the command further. Thanks for getting this far. I'll keep looking for documentation. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun Dec 1 10:19:36 2019 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 16:19:36 +0000 (WET) Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: <5d301bdc-95e6-62a5-d751-75a68c36ac1d@jwsss.com> References: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net> Message-ID: <01REGRMMJU2E8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> On 2019/11/30 23:32:55 -0800, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > On 11/30/2019 9:45 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/30/2019 8:34 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >>> [snip] > > Links.txt > [snip] > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm > ??? Daves Old Computers - Disk/Software Images. Boot disks for lots > ??? of different vintage computers are here. It's not nearly the > ??? size of Don Maslin's lost archive, but it's a start. > I don't keep up with CP/M etc but I thought I recall it being announced that Don Maslin's lost archive had been recovered? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From alan at alanlee.org Sun Dec 1 11:28:41 2019 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 12:28:41 -0500 Subject: System/36 Twin-Ax decode help In-Reply-To: References: <36aa7a0b6b593846c4e7442b27e19d8f@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <7725faed4e532791791a6ee5bec791f0@alanlee.org> I refactored and cleaned up the parser a little and it resulted in some reduction in framing errors in places and an even smaller increase in errors in other places. Not sure where things are broken in that regard. Before I shelve the project for a while due to lack of docs/time, I figured I would provide my analyzer source code if others want to take a look. I also added the raw logic analyzer dumps from separate IPLs with an Infowindow II attached and a single session 3179 + the analyzer output for both. Code and data here: https://www.retrotronics.org/tmp/s36_ipl_decodes1_01dec19.zip The dumps are raw line samplings taken at 30 MHz after the differential op-amp comparitor. -Alan H. On 2019-12-01 11:26, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 11/30/19 8:59 PM, alan--- via cctalk wrote: >> >> I might put this project on the shelf for a >> while unless I can find more docs that explains the command further. > > Thanks for getting this far. I'll keep looking for documentation. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Dec 1 11:52:03 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 09:52:03 -0800 Subject: P112 [Don Maslin Archive] In-Reply-To: <01REGRMMJU2E8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> References: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net> <01REGRMMJU2E8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 12/1/2019 8:19 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > On 2019/11/30 23:32:55 -0800, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/30/2019 9:45 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: >>> On 11/30/2019 8:34 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >>>> > > [snip] > >> >> Links.txt >> > > [snip] > >> http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm >> ???? Daves Old Computers - Disk/Software Images. Boot disks for lots >> ???? of different vintage computers are here. It's not nearly the >> ???? size of Don Maslin's lost archive, but it's a start. >> > > I don't keep up with CP/M etc but I thought I recall it being > announced that Don Maslin's lost archive had been recovered? > Here's the archive http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ P112 I think is way newer than anything related though. > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > > From dave at 661.org Sun Dec 1 13:08:19 2019 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 11:08:19 -0800 Subject: P112 [Don Maslin Archive] In-Reply-To: References: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net> <01REGRMMJU2E8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <5115E5F7-0938-4578-A5D5-F5FE81E4B49D@661.org> On December 1, 2019 9:52:03 AM PST, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > >On 12/1/2019 8:19 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 2019/11/30 23:32:55 -0800, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >>> On 11/30/2019 9:45 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 11/30/2019 8:34 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >>>>> >> >> [snip] >> >>> >>> Links.txt >>> >> >> [snip] >> >>> http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm >>> ???? Daves Old Computers - Disk/Software Images. Boot disks for lots >>> ???? of different vintage computers are here. It's not nearly the >>> ???? size of Don Maslin's lost archive, but it's a start. >>> >> >> I don't keep up with CP/M etc but I thought I recall it being >> announced that Don Maslin's lost archive had been recovered? >> >Here's the archive > >http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ > >P112 I think is way newer than anything related though. Correct. On the 8" drive question, I haven't done it myself, but I've received reports from people who've successfully used them with the P112. It involves pretending they're HD 5.25" drives and using a hardware shim to deliver more current when writing to tracks greater than X. I don't recall the specifics though. BTW, I'm the one who's been selling them since Dave Brookes stopped doing so. I'm out of boards again and probably won't be doing any more runs with surface-mounts preinstalled on account of the difficulty of finding large quantities of new and pristine super-IO chips. I might do a new run of naked boards. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 1 13:09:29 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 11:09:29 -0800 Subject: P112 [Don Maslin Archive] In-Reply-To: References: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net> <01REGRMMJU2E8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: > Here's the archive > > http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ HERE is the archive https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903 Another curator and I went down to San Diego and both ended up with heat exhaustion recovering it from a storage unit in the middle of summer. you're welcome.. From dave at 661.org Sun Dec 1 13:26:01 2019 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 11:26:01 -0800 Subject: P112 [Don Maslin Archive] In-Reply-To: References: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net> <01REGRMMJU2E8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <9EF5C477-5F45-4791-800E-F455FD410644@661.org> On December 1, 2019 11:09:29 AM PST, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> Here's the archive >> >> http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ > > >HERE is the archive > >https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903 > >Another curator and I went down to San Diego and both ended up with >heat exhaustion >recovering it from a storage unit in the middle of summer. > >you're welcome.. Thanks. I remember that summer when I sold several of Don's machines for his niece. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Dec 1 14:16:48 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 13:16:48 -0700 Subject: P112 [Don Maslin Archive] In-Reply-To: References: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net> <01REGRMMJU2E8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 12:09 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > Here's the archive > > > > http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ > > > HERE is the archive > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903 > > Another curator and I went down to San Diego and both ended up with heat > exhaustion > recovering it from a storage unit in the middle of summer. > > you're welcome.. > Thank you. Btw, how does one access this archive? Warner > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Dec 1 15:06:28 2019 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 13:06:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 [Don Maslin Archive] In-Reply-To: References: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net> <01REGRMMJU2E8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> Here's the archive >> >> http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ > > > HERE is the archive > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903 > > Another curator and I went down to San Diego and both ended up with heat exhaustion > recovering it from a storage unit in the middle of summer. It looks like a really cool list of stuff that nobody has access to... Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Dec 1 15:07:50 2019 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 13:07:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 [Don Maslin Archive] In-Reply-To: References: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net> <01REGRMMJU2E8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 12:09 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > >> >>> Here's the archive >>> >>> http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ >> >> >> HERE is the archive >> >> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903 >> >> Another curator and I went down to San Diego and both ended up with heat >> exhaustion >> recovering it from a storage unit in the middle of summer. >> >> you're welcome.. >> > > Thank you. > > Btw, how does one access this archive? > You don't. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 1 16:40:05 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 14:40:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 [Don Maslin Archive] In-Reply-To: <5115E5F7-0938-4578-A5D5-F5FE81E4B49D@661.org> References: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net> <01REGRMMJU2E8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> <5115E5F7-0938-4578-A5D5-F5FE81E4B49D@661.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > On the 8" drive question, I haven't done it myself, but I've received > reports from people who've successfully used them with the P112. It > involves pretending they're HD 5.25" drives and using a hardware shim to > deliver more current when writing to tracks greater than X. I don't > recall the specifics though. As bill mentioned, though, 1.2M drives have 80 tracks; 8" have 77 tracks. Otherwise, the 1.2M is a 5.25" version of an 8" drive in most respects. In fact, the first one that I ever got (at a swap) was a Mitsubishi, that had a 50 pin connector! "TG43" "Standard" (well, they sorta almost were) 8" drives, when they are on a track greater then cylinder #43 use a reduced current when writing. Some drives expect a signal on pin 2 from the FDC to tell them; some have internal support for it, with the drive keeping track of the current track, and don't need that signal (such as Shugart 860, and the later versions of Tandon 848 (1E?, 2E?)) Disk controllers intended for 8" drives will usually have it. PC controllers do not include it. The DBIT FDADAP adapter (that I think Bill is using) handles it (in addition to the 34 pin to 50 pin cable pinouts) Recent ones also have a 2 digit display of track number. Seek errors are not unknown, especially if the track to track step time is faster than the drive can keep up with (cf. Qume 142), so it is sometimes necessary to do a seek to track 0 and count steps back in again, to correct track number. TG43 is absolutely NOT needed for reading. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 1 20:55:51 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 18:55:51 -0800 Subject: P112 [Don Maslin Archive] In-Reply-To: References: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net> <01REGRMMJU2E8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> <5115E5F7-0938-4578-A5D5-F5FE81E4B49D@661.org> Message-ID: <34b9ad24-11ca-24d4-0447-0769f3fdde80@sydex.com> On 12/1/19 2:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > TG43 is absolutely NOT needed for reading. TG43 is also referred to as "RWC" reduced write current. Mostly useful for FM recording; MFM uses precompensation, which subtly shifts the timing of write pulses. --Chuck From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Sun Dec 1 20:10:14 2019 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Abraham) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 18:10:14 -0800 Subject: InfoWorld - May 11, 1992 (3" disk formats) Message-ID: I thought this was fun; stumbled upon it while looking for what words of wisdom Fred had to share about the format of 3" disks: https://books.google.com/books?id=7D0EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=3%22+floppy+disk+format+fred+cisin&source=bl&ots=b3iHCeqJzB&sig=ACfU3U19DoXha-0sh2fqm26M72Z1tlKLXw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjsivXd75XmAhURLX0KHYL0BBkQ6AEwAnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=3%22%20floppy%20disk%20format%20fred%20cisin&f=false Hopefully Fred will see this and tell me whether the 3" disk format was MFM or GCR given that the Orwellipedia says the 3" disk format was initially designed to work with the Apple ][ floppy drive interface. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_floppy_disk?fbclid=IwAR2atb2Z_j_-DVNLTT1eqAZLw4ajB9s0LxzWgSMQoyEoi0_5Yy1KuNi7_TI#The_3-inch_compact_floppy_disk Sellam From dave.dunfield at gmail.com Mon Dec 2 08:19:25 2019 From: dave.dunfield at gmail.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:19:25 -0500 Subject: 191202 Classic equipment available & my bad year. Message-ID: Hi, made a number of updates to the sale pages on my site, and brought back a copy of my commercial site (good for downloads). Unfortunately I screwed up the .html pages and lost some links. Should all me fixed now. Added an FAQ some more parts (eg: 8008 CPI for MOD8), some sample pricing (please see FAQ before complaining). If you've looked at the site before, do refresh each page as you go to it as many browers cache page and will happily show you the old one. http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/sale/index.htm Dave From lowen at pari.edu Mon Dec 2 10:31:00 2019 From: lowen at pari.edu (Lamar Owen) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:31:00 -0500 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a364773-c9ec-1db9-0160-9c03e5628982@pari.edu> On 11/29/19 7:01 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Let's try again with the right name in the Subject line! It's not > really classic (although it does try to pretend to be but does anyone > here do anything with the P112 SBC? I am trying to get 8" disks > running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior. Well, the P112 is a classic of sorts, being a mid-1990's design (much like the CPU280 from Tilmann Reh that I 'revived' a couple of years back, and still have PCBs leftover.... :-) ).? The P112 kit was, up until a few months ago, still available from David Griffith (661.org, which you've already found).? I bought two while I was buying a few years back, and built up one of them, which I still use a bit with a GIDE from Terry.? I am actually planning to port the TRS-80 Model 4's LS-DOS 6 to it for fun, but haven't had time to work too much with it.? I was actually thinking about fabbing a few boards to try out faster Z80182 chips (officially there is a 33MHz version that has been overclocked by some to well over that speed) rather than risk desoldering the 16MHz '182 from one of the two kit boards I bought, so, for David Griffith's benefit, I would be interested in a bare board or three myself if he decides to fab some.? Sourcing the SuperIO and doing the fine-pitch SMD soldering will be a bit of a challenge, but worth it I believe. As far as 8-inch drives are concerned, you would need to do exactly everything you would need to do to hook up an 8-inch drive to a PC, since the P112 uses a PC SuperIO chip for the FDC, and the floppy headers have PC pinouts and signal meanings (unlike the CPU280.....).? The dBit FDADAP or similar would be needed to generate TG43 as well as translate the pinout correctly.? I haven't tried single-density support on the P112, so don't know if that would work or not, but the SuperIO chip used should be able to do that. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 2 14:57:52 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 13:57:52 -0700 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 8:51 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > When I corresponded with Al Kossow about format several years ago, he > indicated that CCITT Group 4 lossless compression was their standard. > There are newer bilevel encodings that are somewhat more efficient than G4 (ITU-T T.6), such as JBIG (T.82) and JBIG2 (T.88), but they are not as widely supported, and AFAIK JBIG2 is still patent encumbered. As a result, G4 is still arguably the best bilevel encoding for general-purpose use. PDF has natively supported G4 for ages, though it gained JBIG and JBIG2 support in more recent versions. Back in 2001, support for G4 encoding in open source software was really awful; where it existed at all, it was horribly slow. There was no good reason for G4 encoding to be slow, which was part of my motivation in writing my own G4 encoder for tumble (an image-to-PDF utility). However, G4 support is generally much better now. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Dec 2 15:05:14 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 21:05:14 +0000 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: <7a364773-c9ec-1db9-0160-9c03e5628982@pari.edu> References: <7a364773-c9ec-1db9-0160-9c03e5628982@pari.edu> Message-ID: On 12/2/19 11:31 AM, Lamar Owen wrote: > > > As far as 8-inch drives are concerned, you would need to do exactly > everything you would need to do to hook up an 8-inch drive to a PC, > since the P112 uses a PC SuperIO chip for the FDC, and the floppy > headers have PC pinouts and signal meanings (unlike the CPU280.....). > The dBit FDADAP or similar would be needed to generate TG43 as well as > translate the pinout correctly.? I haven't tried single-density support > on the P112, so don't know if that would work or not, but the SuperIO > chip used should be able to do that. > > Well, I have the dBit FDADAP. Works great. I have used them before on a PC to access PDP-11 disks from PUTR and E11. The P112 claims to support 8" but I am finding it unlikely. If it (well, at least the OSes it runs) don't even know it only has 77 tracks I can't see how anyone has done 8" disks on it. And then I went on to try the GIDE. I can't get FDISK to create partitions of any kind. I get Command (h for help) : n Partition number (1-8) : 1 First cylinder (1-17455, default 1) : 1 Value out of range And that is what I get no matter what value I enter. Why am I getting this sneaking suspicion that none of this stuff actually works? bill From drb at msu.edu Mon Dec 2 15:55:58 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 16:55:58 -0500 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 02 Dec 2019 21:05:14 +0000.) References: <7a364773-c9ec-1db9-0160-9c03e5628982@pari.edu> Message-ID: <20191202215558.AECCC280BD1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Well, I have the dBit FDADAP. Works great. I have used them before > on a PC to access PDP-11 disks from PUTR and E11. The P112 claims to > support 8" but I am finding it unlikely. If it (well, at least the > OSes it runs) don't even know it only has 77 tracks I can't see how > anyone has done 8" disks on it. I went spelunking in the ROM and BIOS sources the other day, and I don't see any 8" drive stuff in there at all -- it's all 3.5" and 5.25". I looked at FORMAT too. Am I looking at old code? > Why am I getting this sneaking suspicion that none of this stuff > actually works? I haven't had mine out in a while, but last I did, the GIDE did work. Seems like there was some ordering of operations on HD setup that I did wrong the first time. It doesn't help that there are no docs for the thing other than whatever paper came with it. Sanity check your software versions? Mixing and matching variants can be problematic since there are several generations and several forks of the P112 and GIDE stuff; and there's at least one version of FORMAT that's reputed to have a serious bug. De From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 2 16:26:54 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 14:26:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3" disks Was: InfoWorld - May 11, 1992 (3" disk formats) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you. I haven't heard from Brett Glass in decades, since he moved to Idaho. He ran the numbers and decided that the differential in market value between his housing here and similar in Idaho was enough to support him for quite a while. Since he was working as a writer, he didn't have to be physically close to his work, and he could get decent internet access through the university there. 3" drives were readily available in MFM compatible forms. The drive was designed to be a drop-in replacement for 5.25" SA400 style drives. (OK, "SA450"?). And the 3" drives even used a 34 pin card edge and a "molex" power connector (like 5.25"; unlike 3.5") Depending of format choices, MFM from 180K to 720K. Amstrad used them, as did early Gavilan and some others. The Gavilans that I had (both 8 and 16 line models) were later ones, with 3.5" drives. Gavilan's MS-DOS 2.11 3.5" format was not the same as IBM's PC-DOS 3.20 720K format. But, some development continued, even after Gavilan collapsed, and the Gavilan MS-DOS 2.ll version K was the same format as IBM. For those not familiar, MS-DOS 2.11 and 3.31 were versions that were heavily modified by OEMs, particularly for drive types (including >32M in 3.31). Hence, 2.11 and 3.31 are DIFFERENT from one OEM to another! But, early on, AMDISK marketed two drive external boxes for Radio Shack Color Computer and for Apple2. Coco was box standard SA400 compatible drives. I never had one of the Apple2 3" boxes. So, I have questions about the interface. Q: Was it a different logic board on the 3" drive for compatability with the Apple2 "DISK2" interface? (GCR encoding) Q: Or did their external 2 drive box come with its own MFM FDC for the Apple2? (In which case, like the SVA FDC, it could adapt an Apple2 to "standard" drive types) I assume that the 2 drive external boxes came after the original drive as 5.25" drop-in retrofit, but I could easily be wrong, and it is POSSIBLE that the Apple2 version could have been the first release of the drives. The 3" drives were available in 40 and 80 cylinder models. The 3" drives were available in single and double sided. The single sided drives would permit "flippy" operation, to use the other side of the disk as if it were another disk. BUT, the double sided drives (at least the few that I had) would NOT let you insert a flipped disk; therefore, the double sided drives could not access the "B" side of a "flippy" disk! I never got around to looking into modifying the drive for that. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I thought this was fun; stumbled upon it while looking for what words of > wisdom Fred had to share about the format of 3" disks: > > https://books.google.com/books?id=7D0EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=3%22+floppy+disk+format+fred+cisin&source=bl&ots=b3iHCeqJzB&sig=ACfU3U19DoXha-0sh2fqm26M72Z1tlKLXw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjsivXd75XmAhURLX0KHYL0BBkQ6AEwAnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=3%22%20floppy%20disk%20format%20fred%20cisin&f=false > > Hopefully Fred will see this and tell me whether the 3" disk format was MFM > or GCR given that the Orwellipedia says the 3" disk format was initially > designed to work with the Apple ][ floppy drive interface. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_floppy_disk?fbclid=IwAR2atb2Z_j_-DVNLTT1eqAZLw4ajB9s0LxzWgSMQoyEoi0_5Yy1KuNi7_TI#The_3-inch_compact_floppy_disk > > Sellam From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Dec 2 17:23:57 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 17:23:57 -0600 Subject: 3" disks Was: InfoWorld - May 11, 1992 (3" disk formats) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191202232824.DF75B27386@mx1.ezwind.net> At 04:26 PM 12/2/2019, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >Thank you. >I haven't heard from Brett Glass in decades, since he moved to Idaho. He ran the numbers and decided that the differential in market value between his housing here and similar in Idaho was enough to support him for quite a while. He's still around. I knew him back in my writing days, and then I bumped into him again a decade later when I started a WISP. https://twitter.com/brettglass - John From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 2 17:23:02 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 16:23:02 -0700 Subject: The Internet Archive In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107BB3B@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 6:44 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > Well it is good thing, but the REAL Hyper-media is yet to come. > PROJECT XANADU *Founded 1960 * The Original Hypertext Project > The Foonly is not a /360. The Foonly is more like a -10. The Foonly is faster than lightning. Oh, I'll get my Foonly... but when? From guykd at optusnet.com.au Mon Dec 2 18:34:06 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 11:34:06 +1100 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 01:57 PM 2/12/2019 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 8:51 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk >wrote: > >> When I corresponded with Al Kossow about format several years ago, he >> indicated that CCITT Group 4 lossless compression was their standard. >> > >There are newer bilevel encodings that are somewhat more efficient than G4 >(ITU-T T.6), such as JBIG (T.82) and JBIG2 (T.88), but they are not as >widely supported, and AFAIK JBIG2 is still patent encumbered. As a result, >G4 is still arguably the best bilevel encoding for general-purpose use. PDF >has natively supported G4 for ages, though it gained JBIG and JBIG2 support >in more recent versions. > >Back in 2001, support for G4 encoding in open source software was really >awful; where it existed at all, it was horribly slow. There was no good >reason for G4 encoding to be slow, which was part of my motivation in >writing my own G4 encoder for tumble (an image-to-PDF utility). However, G4 >support is generally much better now. Mentioning JBIG2 (or any of its predecessors) without noting that it is completely unacceptable as a scanned document compression scheme, demonstrates a lack of awareness of the defects it introduces in encoded documents. See http://everist.org/NobLog/20131122_an_actual_knob.htm#jbig2 JBIG2 typically produces visually appalling results, and also introduces so many actual factual errors (typically substituted letters and numbers) that documents encoded with it have been ruled inadmissible as evidence in court. Sucks to be an engineering or financial institution, which scanned all its archives with JBIG2 then shredded the paper originals to save space. The fuzzyness of JBIG is adjustable, but fundamentally there will always be some degree of visible patchyness and risk of incorrect substitution. As for G4 bilevel encoding, the only reasons it isn't treated with the same disdain as JBIG2, are: 1. Bandwaggon effect - "It must be OK because so many people use it." 2. People with little or zero awareness of typography, the visual quality of text, and anything to do with preservation of historical character of printed works. For them "I can read it OK" is the sole requirement. G4 compression was invented for fax machines. No one cared much about visual quality of faxes, they just had to be readable. Also the technology of fax machines was only capable of two-tone B&W reproduction, so that's what G4 encoding provided. Thinking these kinds of visual degradation of quality are acceptable when scanning documents for long term preservation, is both short sighted and ignorant of what can already be achieved with better technique. For example, B&W text and line diagram material can be presented very nicely using 16-level gray shading, That's enough to visually preserve all the line and edge quality. The PNG compression scheme provides a color indexed 4 bits/pixel format, combining with PNG's run-length coding. When documents are scanned with sensible thresholds plus post-processed to ensure all white paper is actually #FFFFFF, and solid blacks are actually #0, but edges retain adequate gray shading, PNG achieves an excellent level of filesize compression. The visual results are _far_ superior to G4 and JBIG2 coding, and surprisingly the file sizes can actually be smaller. It's easy to achieve on-screen results that are visually indistinguishable from looking at the paper original, with quite acceptable filesizes. And that's the way it should be. Which brings us to PDF, that most people love because they use it all the time, never looked into the details of its internals, and can't imagine anything better. Just one point here. PDF does not support PNG image encoding. *All* the image compression schemes PDF does support, are flawed in various cases. But because PDF structuring is opaque to users, very few are aware of this and its other problems. And therefore why PDF isn't acceptable as a container for long term archiving of _scanned_ documents for historical purposes. Even though PDF was at least extended to include an 'archival' form in which all the font definitions must be included. When I scan things I'm generally doing it in an experimental sense, still exploring solutions to various issues such as the best way to deal with screened print images and cases where ink screening for tonal images has been overlaid with fine detail line art and text. Which makes processing to a high quality digital image quite difficult. But PDF literally cannot be used as a wrapper for the results, since it doesn't incorporate the required image compression formats. This is why I use things like html structuring, wrapped as either a zip file or RARbook format. Because there is no other option at present. There will be eventually. Just not yet. PDF has to be either greatly extended, or replaced. And that's why I get upset when people physically destroy rare old documents during or after scanning them currently. It happens so frequently, that by the time we have a technically adequate document coding scheme, a lot of old documents won't have any surviving paper copies. They'll be gone forever, with only really crap quality scans surviving. Guy From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Dec 2 19:11:06 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 01:11:06 +0000 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: <20191202215558.AECCC280BD1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <7a364773-c9ec-1db9-0160-9c03e5628982@pari.edu> <20191202215558.AECCC280BD1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 12/2/19 4:55 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > Well, I have the dBit FDADAP. Works great. I have used them before > > on a PC to access PDP-11 disks from PUTR and E11. The P112 claims to > > support 8" but I am finding it unlikely. If it (well, at least the > > OSes it runs) don't even know it only has 77 tracks I can't see how > > anyone has done 8" disks on it. > > I went spelunking in the ROM and BIOS sources the other day, and I don't > see any 8" drive stuff in there at all -- it's all 3.5" and 5.25". I > looked at FORMAT too. Am I looking at old code? The menu you get when you hit Escape on startup has an option for setting a floppy as 8". Mine is ROM 5.7 which I believe is the next to last. Unless it is different than the other CP/M systems I have FORMAT should have no hardware dependent code in it. It was the OS that tracked and controlled what the underlying format of the floppies were. > > > Why am I getting this sneaking suspicion that none of this stuff > > actually works? > > I haven't had mine out in a while, but last I did, the GIDE did work. > Seems like there was some ordering of operations on HD setup that I did > wrong the first time. The GIDE seems to work. It appears to be FDISK that is broken. Given that, unless people had custom versions of FDISK I fail to see how anyone set up a hard disk on a P112. > > It doesn't help that there are no docs for the thing other than whatever > paper came with it. Thus the reason for me searching places like this for help. :-) > > Sanity check your software versions? Mixing and matching variants can > be problematic since there are several generations and several forks of > the P112 and GIDE stuff; and there's at least one version of FORMAT > that's reputed to have a serious bug. No mix or match. Just using the images provided on the CD that came with it. FORMAT works OK for 3.5" disks. I have had no luck trying to FORMAT 5.25" or 8" floppies. And I can't even get that far on a hard disk. bill From drb at msu.edu Mon Dec 2 19:36:24 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 20:36:24 -0500 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 03 Dec 2019 01:11:06 +0000.) References: <7a364773-c9ec-1db9-0160-9c03e5628982@pari.edu> <20191202215558.AECCC280BD1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20191203013625.35E1B280CC1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > The menu you get when you hit Escape on startup has an option for > setting a floppy as 8". Mine is ROM 5.7 which I believe is the next > to last. Unless it is different than the other CP/M systems I have > FORMAT should have no hardware dependent code in it. It was the OS > that tracked and controlled what the underlying format of the > floppies were. That's literally the only thing I could find. I can't see any place where a DPB is defined for an 8" drive. If the DPB is wrong, FORMAT will misbehave. I'd be utterly unsurprised if more parameters than just cylinder count weren't wrong. You might try examining the active DPBs for the system to see what all it's using, and even correct it with a monitor or debugger. > > I haven't had mine out in a while, but last I did, the GIDE did > > work. Seems like there was some ordering of operations on HD setup > > that I did wrong the first time. The more I think about this, the more I think maybe the thing that "fixed" mine was wiping the drive before trying FDISK. You didn't show the full FDISK session, or a listing of what partitions it thinks are there to begin with. That might help shake free thoughts from others. Does dgriffi lurk on this list? De From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Dec 2 20:08:38 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 19:08:38 -0700 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <6b35a078-4ef2-b16f-8a50-1691f0dbf179@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/2/19 5:34 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: Interesting comments Guy. I'm completely naive when it comes to scanning things for preservation. Your comments do pass my naive understanding. > But PDF literally cannot be used as a wrapper for the results, > since it doesn't incorporate the required image compression formats. > This is why I use things like html structuring, wrapped as either a zip > file or RARbook format. Because there is no other option at present. > There will be eventually. Just not yet. PDF has to be either greatly > extended, or replaced. I *HATE* doing anything with PDFs other than reading them. My opinion is that PDF is where information goes to die. Creating the PDF was the last time that anything other than a human could use the information as a unit. Now, in the future, it's all chopped up lines of text that may be in a nonsensical order. I believe it will take humans (or something yet to be created with human like ability) to make sense of the content and recreate it in a new form for further consumption. Have you done any looking at ePub? My understanding is that they are a zip of a directory structure of HTML and associated files. That sounds quite similar to what you're describing. > And that's why I get upset when people physically destroy rare old > documents during or after scanning them currently. It happens so > frequently, that by the time we have a technically adequate document > coding scheme, a lot of old documents won't have any surviving > paper copies. They'll be gone forever, with only really crap quality > scans surviving. Fair enough. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Dec 2 20:10:48 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 02:10:48 +0000 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: <20191203013625.35E1B280CC1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <7a364773-c9ec-1db9-0160-9c03e5628982@pari.edu> <20191202215558.AECCC280BD1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20191203013625.35E1B280CC1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 12/2/19 8:36 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > The menu you get when you hit Escape on startup has an option for > > setting a floppy as 8". Mine is ROM 5.7 which I believe is the next > > to last. Unless it is different than the other CP/M systems I have > > FORMAT should have no hardware dependent code in it. It was the OS > > that tracked and controlled what the underlying format of the > > floppies were. > > That's literally the only thing I could find. I can't see any place > where a DPB is defined for an 8" drive. If the DPB is wrong, FORMAT > will misbehave. I'd be utterly unsurprised if more parameters than just > cylinder count weren't wrong. > > You might try examining the active DPBs for the system to see what all > it's using, and even correct it with a monitor or debugger. I put 8" on a back burner for the moment. > > > > I haven't had mine out in a while, but last I did, the GIDE did > > > work. Seems like there was some ordering of operations on HD setup > > > that I did wrong the first time. > > The more I think about this, the more I think maybe the thing that > "fixed" mine was wiping the drive before trying FDISK. Wiping with what. > > You didn't show the full FDISK session, or a listing of what partitions > it thinks are there to begin with. That might help shake free thoughts > from others. It starts out with no partitions and claims the partition table is not a valid P112 table. The "w" command fixes that but the table is still empty. Interestingly enough, a 64M CF in an IDE adapter works with FDISK. but then when I try to "INIT" it under RSX180 it prints a stream of garbage on the screen and does nothing to the disk/CF. Not sure how much longer I am likely to keep beating my head against the wall. bill From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Mon Dec 2 21:20:15 2019 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 01:20:15 -0200 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: <6b35a078-4ef2-b16f-8a50-1691f0dbf179@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> <6b35a078-4ef2-b16f-8a50-1691f0dbf179@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: I cannot understand your problems with PDF files. I've created lots and lots of PDFs, with treated and untreated scanned material. All of them are very readable and in use for years. Of course, garbage in, garbage out. I take the utmost care in my scans to have good enough source files, so I can create great PDFs. Of course, Guy's commens are very informative and I'll learn more from it. But I still believe in good preservation using PDF files. FOR ME it is the best we have in encapsulating info. Forget HTMLs. Please, take a look at this PDF, and tell me: Isn't that good enough for preservation/use? https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7yahi4JC3juSVVkOEhwRWdUR1E/view Thanks Alexandre ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com http://www.tabalabs.com.br ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- Em ter., 3 de dez. de 2019 ?s 00:08, Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu: > On 12/2/19 5:34 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > Interesting comments Guy. > > I'm completely naive when it comes to scanning things for preservation. > Your comments do pass my naive understanding. > > > But PDF literally cannot be used as a wrapper for the results, > > since it doesn't incorporate the required image compression formats. > > This is why I use things like html structuring, wrapped as either a zip > > file or RARbook format. Because there is no other option at present. > > There will be eventually. Just not yet. PDF has to be either greatly > > extended, or replaced. > > I *HATE* doing anything with PDFs other than reading them. My opinion > is that PDF is where information goes to die. Creating the PDF was the > last time that anything other than a human could use the information as > a unit. Now, in the future, it's all chopped up lines of text that may > be in a nonsensical order. I believe it will take humans (or something > yet to be created with human like ability) to make sense of the content > and recreate it in a new form for further consumption. > > Have you done any looking at ePub? My understanding is that they are a > zip of a directory structure of HTML and associated files. That sounds > quite similar to what you're describing. > > > And that's why I get upset when people physically destroy rare old > > documents during or after scanning them currently. It happens so > > frequently, that by the time we have a technically adequate document > > coding scheme, a lot of old documents won't have any surviving > > paper copies. They'll be gone forever, with only really crap quality > > scans surviving. > > Fair enough. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Dec 2 22:06:29 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 21:06:29 -0700 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> <6b35a078-4ef2-b16f-8a50-1691f0dbf179@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 12/2/19 8:20 PM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote: > I cannot understand your problems with PDF files. My problem with PDFs starts where most people stop using them. Take the average PDF of text, try to copy and paste the text into a text file. (That may work.) Now try to edit a piece of the text, such as taking part of a line out, or adding to a line. (You can probably do that too.) Now fix the line wrapping to get the margins back to where they should be. (This will likely be a nightmare without a good text editor to reflow the text.) All of the text I get out of PDFs is (at best) discrete lines that are unassociated with other lines. They just happen to be next to each other. Conversely, if I copy text off of a web page or out of many programs, I can paste into an editor, make my desired changes, and the line re-wrapping is already done for me. This works for non-PDF sources because it's a continuous line of text that can be re-wrapped and re-used. In my opinion, PDFs are the last place that computer usable data goes. Because getting anything out of a PDF as a data source is next to impossible. Sure, you, a human, can read it and consume the data. Try importing a simple table from a PDF and working with the data in something like a spreadsheet. You can't do it. The raw data is there. But you can't readily use it. This is why I say that a PDF is the end of the line for data. I view it as effectively impossible to take data out of a PDF and do anything with it without first needing to reconstitute it before I can use it. > I've created lots and lots of PDFs, with treated and untreated scanned > material. All of them are very readable and in use for years. Sure, you, a human, can quite easily read it. But you are not processing the data the way that I'm talking about. > Of course, garbage in, garbage out. I'm not talking about GIGO. > I take the utmost care in my scans to have good enough source files, > so I can create great PDFs. > > Of course, Guy's commens are very informative and I'll learn more from it. > But I still believe in good preservation using PDF files. FOR ME it is the > best we have in encapsulating info. Forget HTMLs. I find HTML to be IMMENSELY easier to extract data from. > Please, take a look at this PDF, and tell me: Isn't that good enough for > preservation/use? It's good enough for humans to use. But it suffers from the same problem that I'm describing. Try copying the text and pasting it into a wider or narrower document. What happens to the line wrapping or margins? Based on my experience, they are crap. With HTML, I can copy content and paste it into a wider or narrower window without any problem. Data is originated somewhere. Something is done to it. It's manipulated, reformatted, processed, displayed and / or printed, and ultimately consumed. In my experience, PDF files are the end of that chain. There is no good way to get text out of a PDF. Take (part of) the first paragraph of your sample PDF: What's easier to re-use in a new document: This (direct copy and paste): --8<-- Os transceptores Control modelo TAC-45 (vers?o de 10 a 45 Watts) e TAC-70 (vers?o de 10 a 70 Watts) foram um marco na radiocomunica??o comercial brasileira. Lan?ados em 1983, consistiam num transceptor dividido em dois blocos: o corpo do r?dio e um cabe?ote de comando, onde ficavam os comandos de volume, squelch e o seletor de 4 canais. -->8-- Or this: --8<-- Os transceptores Control modelo TAC-45 (vers?o de 10 a 45 Watts) e TAC-70 (vers?o de 10 a 70 Watts) foram um marco na radiocomunica??o comercial brasileira. Lan?ados em 1983, consistiam num transceptor dividido em dois blocos: o corpo do r?dio e um cabe?ote de comando, onde ficavam os comandos de volume, squelch e o seletor de 4 canais. -->8-- With format=flowed, the second copy will re-scale ti any window width. I can also triple click to select the entire paragraph, something I can't do with the first copy. Heck, I can't even reliably do anything with sentence in the first copy. It's all broken lines. The second copy is a continuous string that makes up (part of) the paragraph. Which format would you like to work with if you need to extract text from a file and use in something else? Something that you have to repair the damage introduced by the file format? Or something that preserves the text integrity? -- Grant. . . . unix || die -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Dec 2 22:12:16 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 21:12:16 -0700 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> <6b35a078-4ef2-b16f-8a50-1691f0dbf179@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 12/2/19 9:06 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > In my opinion, PDFs are the last place that computer usable data goes. > Because getting anything out of a PDF as a data source is next to > impossible. > > Sure, you, a human, can read it and consume the data. > > Try importing a simple table from a PDF and working with the data in > something like a spreadsheet.? You can't do it.? The raw data is there. > But you can't readily use it. > > This is why I say that a PDF is the end of the line for data. > > I view it as effectively impossible to take data out of a PDF and do > anything with it without first needing to reconstitute it before I can > use it. I'll add this: PDF is a decent page layout format. But trying to view the contents in any different layout is problematic (at best). Trying to use the result of a page layout as a data source is ... problematic. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Dec 3 02:50:09 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 09:50:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Dec 2019, Eric Smith wrote: > There are newer bilevel encodings that are somewhat more efficient than G4 > (ITU-T T.6), such as JBIG (T.82) and JBIG2 (T.88), but they are not as > widely supported, and AFAIK JBIG2 is still patent encumbered. As a result, *NEVER* use JBIG2! I hope you know about the Xerox JBIG2 bug (e.g. making an 8 where there is a 6 in the original). Alone the idea of multiplying parts from a scan in other areas is a no go. That's not archiving, that's dumb. Therefore using compression algorithms like the one used in JBIG2 is discouraged or even forbidden e.g. for legal matters. Christian From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue Dec 3 03:15:52 2019 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 10:15:52 +0100 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20191203091552.l2xpfl425a7mejvj@lug-owl.de> Hi! On Tue, 2019-12-03 11:34:06 +1100, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 01:57 PM 2/12/2019 -0700, you wrote: > >On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 8:51 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk > >wrote: > > > > > When I corresponded with Al Kossow about format several years ago, he > > > indicated that CCITT Group 4 lossless compression was their standard. > As for G4 bilevel encoding, the only reasons it isn't treated with the same > disdain as JBIG2, are: > 1. Bandwaggon effect - "It must be OK because so many people use it." > 2. People with little or zero awareness of typography, the visual quality of > text, and anything to do with preservation of historical character of > printed works. For them "I can read it OK" is the sole requirement. > > G4 compression was invented for fax machines. No one cared much about visual > quality of faxes, they just had to be readable. Also the technology of fax > machines was only capable of two-tone B&W reproduction, so that's what G4 > encoding provided. So it boils down to two distinct tasks: * Scan old paper documentation with a proven file format (ie. no compression artifacts, b/w or 16 gray-level for black-and-white text, tables and the like. * Make these images accessible as useable documentation. The first step is that's work-intensive, the second step can probably be easily redone every time we "learn" something about how to make the documents more useful. For accessibility, PDF seems to be quite a nice choice, as long as we see that as a representation only (and not as the information source.) Convert the images to TIFF for example, possibly downsample, possibly OCR and overlay it. > But PDF literally cannot be used as a wrapper for the results, since > it doesn't incorporate the required image compression formats. > This is why I use things like html structuring, wrapped as either a zip > file or RARbook format. Because there is no other option at present. > There will be eventually. Just not yet. PDF has to be either greatly > extended, or replaced. I think that PDF actually is a quite well-working output format, but we'd see it as a compilation product of our actual source (images), not as the final (and only) product. > And that's why I get upset when people physically destroy rare old documents > during or after scanning them currently. It happens so frequently, that by > the time we have a technically adequate document coding scheme, a lot of old > documents won't have any surviving paper copies. > They'll be gone forever, with only really crap quality scans surviving. :-( Too bad, but that happens all the time. Thanks, Jan-Benedict -- From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Dec 3 04:09:12 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 10:09:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> <6b35a078-4ef2-b16f-8a50-1691f0dbf179@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <1365618107.5291308.1575367752937@mail.yahoo.com> very nice? file yep, we prefer pdf? ?with? ocr? ?back? stuff? ?ed smecc,orgIn a message dated 12/2/2019 8:20:36 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: I cannot understand your problems with PDF files. I've created lots and lots of PDFs, with treated and untreated scanned material. All of them are very readable and in use for years. Of course, garbage in, garbage out. I take the utmost care in my scans to have good enough source files, so I can create great PDFs. Of course, Guy's commens are very informative and I'll learn more from it. But I still believe in good preservation using PDF files. FOR ME it is the best we have in encapsulating info. Forget HTMLs. Please, take a look at this PDF, and tell me: Isn't that good enough for preservation/use? https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7yahi4JC3juSVVkOEhwRWdUR1E/view Thanks Alexandre ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com http://www.tabalabs.com.br ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- Em ter., 3 de dez. de 2019 ?s 00:08, Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu: > On 12/2/19 5:34 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > Interesting comments Guy. > > I'm completely naive when it comes to scanning things for preservation. >? Your comments do pass my naive understanding. > > > But PDF literally cannot be used as a wrapper for the results, > > since it doesn't incorporate the required image compression formats. > > This is why I use things like html structuring, wrapped as either a zip > > file or RARbook format. Because there is no other option at present. > > There will be eventually. Just not yet. PDF has to be either greatly > > extended, or replaced. > > I *HATE* doing anything with PDFs other than reading them.? My opinion > is that PDF is where information goes to die.? Creating the PDF was the > last time that anything other than a human could use the information as > a unit.? Now, in the future, it's all chopped up lines of text that may > be in a nonsensical order.? I believe it will take humans (or something > yet to be created with human like ability) to make sense of the content > and recreate it in a new form for further consumption. > > Have you done any looking at ePub?? My understanding is that they are a > zip of a directory structure of HTML and associated files.? That sounds > quite similar to what you're describing. > > > And that's why I get upset when people physically destroy rare old > > documents during or after scanning them currently. It happens so > > frequently, that by the time we have a technically adequate document > > coding scheme, a lot of old documents won't have any surviving > > paper copies.? They'll be gone forever, with only really crap quality > > scans surviving. > > Fair enough. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Dec 3 04:18:24 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 10:18:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: <20191203091552.l2xpfl425a7mejvj@lug-owl.de> References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20191203091552.l2xpfl425a7mejvj@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <1813230812.5301179.1575368304588@mail.yahoo.com> actually? ?we scan to pdf? with back ocr? also text? also tiff also jpegwith the slooowww? ?hp 11x17 scan fax print thing i can scan entite document then save 1 save2 save3? save 4 without rescanning each time? ?ed? at smecc In a message dated 12/3/2019 2:16:01 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Hi! On Tue, 2019-12-03 11:34:06 +1100, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 01:57 PM 2/12/2019 -0700, you wrote: > >On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 8:51 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk > >wrote: > > > > > When I corresponded with Al Kossow about format several years ago, he > > > indicated that CCITT Group 4 lossless compression was their standard. > As for G4 bilevel encoding, the only reasons it isn't treated with the same > disdain as JBIG2, are: > 1. Bandwaggon effect - "It must be OK because so many people use it." > 2. People with little or zero awareness of typography, the visual quality of >? ? text, and anything to do with preservation of historical character of >? ? printed works. For them "I can read it OK" is the sole requirement. > > G4 compression was invented for fax machines. No one cared much about visual > quality of faxes, they just had to be readable. Also the technology of fax > machines was only capable of two-tone B&W reproduction, so that's what G4 > encoding provided. So it boils down to two distinct tasks: ? * Scan old paper documentation with a proven file format (ie. no ? ? compression artifacts, b/w or 16 gray-level for black-and-white ? ? text, tables and the like. ? * Make these images accessible as useable documentation. The first step is that's work-intensive, the second step can probably be easily redone every time we "learn" something about how to make the documents more useful. ? For accessibility, PDF seems to be quite a nice choice, as long as we see that as a representation only (and not as the information source.) Convert the images to TIFF for example, possibly downsample, possibly OCR and overlay it. > But PDF literally cannot be used as a wrapper for the results, since > it doesn't incorporate the required image compression formats. > This is why I use things like html structuring, wrapped as either a zip > file or RARbook format. Because there is no other option at present. > There will be eventually. Just not yet. PDF has to be either greatly > extended, or replaced. I think that PDF actually is a quite well-working output format, but we'd see it as a compilation product of our actual source (images), not as the final (and only) product. > And that's why I get upset when people physically destroy rare old documents > during or after scanning them currently. It happens so frequently, that by > the time we have a technically adequate document coding scheme, a lot of old > documents won't have any surviving paper copies. > They'll be gone forever, with only really crap quality scans surviving. :-(? Too bad, but that happens all the time. Thanks, ? Jan-Benedict -- From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Dec 3 05:08:33 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 22:08:33 +1100 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <6b35a078-4ef2-b16f-8a50-1691f0dbf179@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> <6b35a078-4ef2-b16f-8a50-1691f0dbf179@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20191203220833.013f3e88@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 01:20 AM 3/12/2019 -0200, you wrote: >I cannot understand your problems with PDF files. >I've created lots and lots of PDFs, with treated and untreated scanned >material. All of them are very readable and in use for years. Of course, >garbage in, garbage out. I take the utmost care in my scans to have good >enough source files, so I can create great PDFs. > >Of course, Guy's commens are very informative and I'll learn more from it. >But I still believe in good preservation using PDF files. FOR ME it is the >best we have in encapsulating info. Forget HTMLs. I don't propose html as a viable alternative. It has massive inadequacies for representing physical documents. I just use it for experimenting and and as a temporary wrapper, because it's entirely transparent and maleable. ie I have total control over the result (within the bounds of what html can do.) >Please, take a look at this PDF, and tell me: Isn't that good enough for >preservation/use? >https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7yahi4JC3juSVVkOEhwRWdUR1E/view OK, not too bad in comparison to many others. But a few comments: * The images are fax-mode, and although the resolution is high enough for there to be no ambiguities, it still looks bad and stylistically greatly differs from the original. Pity I don't have a copy of the original, to make demonstration scans of a few illustrations to show what it could be like, for similar file size. * The text is OCR, with a font I expect likely approximates the original fairly well. Though I'd like to see the original. I suspect the PDF font is a bit 'thic' due to incorrect gray threshold. Also it's searchable, except that the OCR process included paper blemishes as 'characters' so if you copy-paste the text elsewhere you have to carefully vet it. And not all searches will work. This is an illustration of the point that till we achieve human-leval AI, it's never going to be possible to go from images to abstracted OCR text automatically without considerable human oversight and proof-reading. And... human-level AI won't _want_ to do drudgery like that. * Your automated PDF generation process did a lot of silly things, like chaotic attempts to OCR 'elements' of diagrams. Just try moving a text selection box over the diagrams, you'll see what I mean. Try several diagrams, it's very random. * The PCB layouts, for eg PDF page #s 28, 29 - I bet the original used light shading to represent copper, and details over the copper were clearly visible. But when you scanned it in bi-level all that is lost. These _have_ to be in gray scale, and preferably post-processed to posterize the flat shading areas (for better compression as well as visual accuracy.) * Why are all the diagram pages variously different widths? I expect the original pages (foldouts?) had common sizes. This variation is because either you didn't use a fixed recipee for scanning and processing, or your PDF generation utility 'handled' that automatically (and messed up.) * You don't have control of what was OCR'd and what wasn't. For instance, why OCR table contents, if the text selection results are garbage? For eg, select the entire block at the bottom of PDF page 48. Does the highlighting create a sense of confidence this is going to work? Now copy and paste into a text editor. Is the result useful? (No.) OCR can be over-used. * 'ownership' As well as your introduction page, you put your tag on every single page. Pretty much everyone does something like this. As if by transcribing the source material you acquired some kind of ownership or bragging rights. But no, others put a very great deal of effort into creating that work, and you just made a digital copy. That the originators probably would consider an aesthetic insult to their efforts. So, why the proud tags everywhere? Summary: It's fine as a working copy for practical use. Better to have made it than not, so long as you didn't destroy the paper original in the process. But if you're talking about an archival historical record, that someone can look at in 500 years (or 5000) and know what the original actually looked like, how much effort went into making that ink crisp and accurate, then no. It's not good enough. To be fair, I've never yet seen any PDF scan of any document that I'd consider good enough. Works created originally in PDF as line art are a different class, and typically OK. Though some other flaws of PDF do come into play. Difficulty of content export, problems with global page parameters, font failures, sequential vs content page numbers, etc. With scanning there are multiple points of failure right through the whole process at present, ranging from misunderstandings of the technology among people doing scanning, problems with scanners (why are edge scanners so rare!?), lack of critical capabilities in post-processing utilities (line art on top of ink screening, it's a nightmare, also most people can't use Photoshop well, and it's necessary), failings built unavoidably into PDF, and not so great PDF viewer utilities. Apart from the intrinsic issues (aside from a few advantages) with on-screen display and controls compared to paper. I hope I have not offended you. Btw my pickiness comes from growing up in a family with commercial art, typography, printing and technical art involvement. And having in later years assisted a little with such things. So at least I know how much effort goes into such things. Keep the original. Methods and utilities will improve, and in 10 or 20 years it may be possible to make a visually perfect digital copy (with minimal effort), worthy of becoming a sole record of that thing (if history goes that way.) Guy From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 3 09:15:43 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 10:15:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers Message-ID: <20191203151543.B35FD18C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Dunphy > JBIG2 .. introduces so many actual factual errors (typically > substituted letters and numbers) It's probably worth noting that there are often errors _in the original documents_, too - so even a perfect image doesn't guarantee no errors. The most recent one (of many) which I found (although I only had a PDF to work from, so maybe it's a 'scanning induced error') is described at the bottom here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/KS10 Although looking again at the PDF, the two digits in question are quite clear and crisp, and don't seem like they could be scanning errors. Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Dec 3 11:27:52 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 10:27:52 -0700 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 5:34 PM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > Mentioning JBIG2 (or any of its predecessors) without noting that it is > completely unacceptable as a scanned document compression scheme, > demonstrates > a lack of awareness of the defects it introduces in encoded documents. > Perhaps you are not aware that the JBIG2 standard has a lossless mode. Certainly JBIG2 lossy mode is _extremely_ lossy, but lossless mode doesn't have those problems. It's entirely possible that the common JBIG2 encoders either don't offer lossless mode, or don't make it easy to configure. G4 compression was invented for fax machines. No one cared much about visual > quality of faxes, they just had to be readable. Also the technology of fax > machines was only capable of two-tone B&W reproduction, so that's what G4 > encoding provided. > Thinking these kinds of visual degradation of quality are acceptable when > scanning documents for long term preservation, is both short sighted and > ignorant of what can already be achieved with better technique. > When used at an appropriate resolution (e.g., not 100 DPI), G4 encoding is perfectly fine for bilevel documents (text and line art) that are in good condition. If the documents were originally bilevel but have suffered from significant degradation in reproduction, then they are effectively no longer bilevel, and G4 (at any resolution) is inappropriate. And therefore why PDF isn't acceptable as a > container for long term archiving of _scanned_ documents for historical > purposes. > You state that as if it was a fact universally agreed upon, which it clearly is not. If you despise PDF as an archival format, by all means please feel free to NOT avail yourself of the hundreds of thousands of pages of archives in PDF format e.g. on Bitsavers. I'm of course not claiming that PDF is perfect, nor is G4 encoding. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Dec 3 11:30:03 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 10:30:03 -0700 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: <6b35a078-4ef2-b16f-8a50-1691f0dbf179@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> <6b35a078-4ef2-b16f-8a50-1691f0dbf179@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 7:08 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I *HATE* doing anything with PDFs other than reading them. PDF was never _intended_ for documents that should undergo any further processing. The few things that have been hacked onto it for interactive use are actually the worst thing about PDF. My opinion > is that PDF is where information goes to die. Creating the PDF was the > last time that anything other than a human could use the information as > a unit. I don't have any more difficulty extracting and processing scanned page images out of a PDF file than any other container (e.g., TIFF). From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Dec 3 11:30:44 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 10:30:44 -0700 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> <6b35a078-4ef2-b16f-8a50-1691f0dbf179@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 9:06 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > My problem with PDFs starts where most people stop using them. > > Take the average PDF of text, try to copy and paste the text into a text > file. (That may work.) > Sure. Now try thing same thing with a TIFF file. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Dec 3 11:31:28 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 10:31:28 -0700 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 1:50 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > *NEVER* use JBIG2! I hope you know about the Xerox JBIG2 bug (e.g. making > That's _LOSSY_ JBIG2. YOU DON"T HAVE TO USE LOSSY MODE! From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Dec 3 11:46:52 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 12:46:52 -0500 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> <6b35a078-4ef2-b16f-8a50-1691f0dbf179@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 2, 2019, at 11:12 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/2/19 9:06 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> In my opinion, PDFs are the last place that computer usable data goes. Because getting anything out of a PDF as a data source is next to impossible. >> Sure, you, a human, can read it and consume the data. >> Try importing a simple table from a PDF and working with the data in something like a spreadsheet. You can't do it. The raw data is there. But you can't readily use it. >> This is why I say that a PDF is the end of the line for data. >> I view it as effectively impossible to take data out of a PDF and do anything with it without first needing to reconstitute it before I can use it. > > I'll add this: > > PDF is a decent page layout format. But trying to view the contents in any different layout is problematic (at best). > > Trying to use the result of a page layout as a data source is ... problematic. That's hardly surprising. These properties are precisely the intent of PDF. It's basically a portable variant of PostScript, with some cleanups (relatively sane Unicode support, transparency, hyperlinks, a few other things). Its specific purpose is to encode page images, just as they appear on actual paper. Indeed, PDF is often used as a "camera ready copy" format for material going to a print shop. It works quite well for that. For scanned documents, where each page is just an image, PDF is a decent container format. For documents with actual text, it's far more problematic. Using PDF as an intermediate form is every bit as inappropriate as using JPEG for line art or any other application where artefacts are impermissible. The trouble (for both of these) is that many of the users don't know the limitations and blindly use the wrong tools. paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Dec 3 11:47:41 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 10:47:41 -0700 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> <6b35a078-4ef2-b16f-8a50-1691f0dbf179@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <1f4481e3-9017-4e00-a8e3-eed1097c94ec@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/3/19 10:30 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > PDF was never _intended_ for documents that should undergo any further > processing. Okay. Fair rebuttal. > The few things that have been hacked onto it for interactive use are > actually the worst thing about PDF. > > My opinion Okay. > I don't have any more difficulty extracting and processing scanned page > images out of a PDF file than any other container (e.g., TIFF). -- Grant. . . . unix || die From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Dec 3 11:44:36 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 10:44:36 -0700 Subject: One old Sol, Two old names... In-Reply-To: <13b001d5a403$2d09c5d0$871d5170$@verizon.net> References: <13b001d5a403$2d09c5d0$871d5170$.ref@verizon.net> <13b001d5a403$2d09c5d0$871d5170$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 7:43 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Other interesting things about the Sol include that it has an 80/64 video > modification > (with patches all over): > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/fixed_sol/20191125_202606.jpg > Cool! Here's one with both the 80/64 daughterboard and a Z80 daughterboard: https://www.flickr.com/photos/_brouhaha_/6693966999/in/album-72157628862392743/ Unfortunately I have not been able to track down documentation on either. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Dec 3 11:59:17 2019 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 13:59:17 -0400 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> Message-ID: <9cdee4b9-ab23-a9c1-8065-609d58d93e4a@gmail.com> On 2019-12-02 4:57 p.m., Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 8:51 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk > wrote: > >> When I corresponded with Al Kossow about format several years ago, he >> indicated that CCITT Group 4 lossless compression was their standard. >> > There are newer bilevel encodings that are somewhat more efficient than G4 > (ITU-T T.6), such as JBIG (T.82) and JBIG2 (T.88), but they are not as > widely supported, and AFAIK JBIG2 is still patent encumbered. As a result, > G4 is still arguably the best bilevel encoding for general-purpose use. PDF > has natively supported G4 for ages, though it gained JBIG and JBIG2 support > in more recent versions. > > Back in 2001, support for G4 encoding in open source software was really > awful; where it existed at all, it was horribly slow. There was no good > reason for G4 encoding to be slow, which was part of my motivation in > writing my own G4 encoder for tumble (an image-to-PDF utility). However, G4 > support is generally much better now. Is there any way to know what compression was used in a pdf file? Do you know anything about a compression format JPEG2000? Would TIFF G4 still be preferable to JPEG2000? It would seem I can control the compression used by selecting the pdf compatibility level. Paul. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Dec 3 12:13:11 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 13:13:11 -0500 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: <9cdee4b9-ab23-a9c1-8065-609d58d93e4a@gmail.com> References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <9cdee4b9-ab23-a9c1-8065-609d58d93e4a@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 3, 2019, at 12:59 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > ... > Would TIFF G4 still be preferable to JPEG2000? It would seem I can control the compression used by selecting the pdf compatibility level. JPEG2000 apparently has a lossless mode (says Wikipedia). If so, it would be acceptable as an alternative to other lossless compressions. If used in lossy mode, it's not suitable for scanned documents, just as regular JPEG isn't. paul From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Dec 3 13:23:51 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 12:23:51 -0700 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: <9cdee4b9-ab23-a9c1-8065-609d58d93e4a@gmail.com> References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <9cdee4b9-ab23-a9c1-8065-609d58d93e4a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 10:59 AM Paul Berger via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Is there any way to know what compression was used in a pdf file? > There's not necessarily only one. Every object in a PDF file can have its own selection of compression algorithm. I don't know of any user-friendly way to tell. Years ago I used some really awful programs I hacked up to inspect PDF file contents. I'm not sure I even can find them any more. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 3 14:22:38 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 12:22:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: <20191203151543.B35FD18C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20191203151543.B35FD18C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > JBIG2 .. introduces so many actual factual errors (typically > > substituted letters and numbers) On Tue, 3 Dec 2019, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > It's probably worth noting that there are often errors _in the original > documents_, too - so even a perfect image doesn't guarantee no errors. . . . and how often will the randomizing corruption actually result in changing an error to what it SHOULD HAVE BEEN? :-) > Although looking again at the PDF, the two digits in question are quite > clear and crisp, and don't seem like they could be scanning errors. Watch out. PDF with OCR can show you a clear and crisp [possibly wrong] interpretation of the scan, not what the actual scan looked like. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 3 14:28:51 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 12:28:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> <3.0.6.32.20191203113406.00e0bb60@mail.optusnet.com.au> <6b35a078-4ef2-b16f-8a50-1691f0dbf179@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Dec 2019, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > The trouble (for both of these) is that many of the > users don't know the limitations and blindly use the wrong tools. "To the man who has a hammer, the whole world looks like a thumb." (which is an idictment about misuse, not an indictment of hammers) From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 3 17:46:42 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 23:46:42 +0000 Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <20191203151543.B35FD18C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 03/12/2019 20:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Watch out.? PDF with OCR can show you a clear and crisp? [possibly > wrong] interpretation of the scan, not what the actual scan looked like. > The OCR may well say "0" where the printing says "8" but what your eyes will see will be the representation of the printing. So if you rely only on OCR you may well miss something, but if you fall back to the way you'd have towork without OCR (or even the way you'd have to work if you had the original paper copy) then you have to rely on your eyesight to fail to find what you are looking for ... Unless, that is, you discard the graphical representation and keep only the OCR result. In which case all bets are off. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From brain at jbrain.com Tue Dec 3 22:35:40 2019 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 22:35:40 -0600 Subject: PBX (or something) for modem testing Message-ID: To continue validating modem functionality, I think it makes sense to set up a closed loop phone system in my lab that will function well enough to allow modems to connect to each other (dial tone, ringing, busy signal, etc.). I know I can probably whip something up with a 9 v battery and a piece of cable with rj11s, but I think that will fall short. That said, I went out to eBay to see if I could source a 2-8 line something to help, and got smacked around with my lack of telephone system knowledge. So, any ideas (or links to eBay auctions) of brands/models/etc. I should focus on? Also, if anyone has any modems lying around gathering dust, I probably should source a few more models. tcpser handles Hayes "+++" spec correctly, but I should probably support TIES as well, to cite one example. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Dec 3 23:25:10 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 22:25:10 -0700 Subject: PBX (or something) for modem testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <024ca08f-5033-9fe1-be8e-b686eef7f1a0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/3/19 9:35 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > So, any ideas (or links to eBay auctions) of brands/models/etc. I should > focus on? I would purchase a Partner system from AT&T / Lucent / Avaya. I think they are both analog and digital. The analog will work for modems. You will likely need a digital set with display to program things. I should clarify, /each/ line is both digital and analog. This is nicer than older Nortel Norstar systems that I've worked with which needed additional equipment equipment, Analog Terminal Adapter, as they were (by default) purely digital lines. Note: You might not be able to get anything faster than 33.6 without some more effort and / or more specialized phone equipment. There's always the VoIP route, but that's an even deeper, darker, steeper, and more slippery rabbit hole. Partner systems will likely be 8 analog lines that can be used in short order. My biggest concern with a Partner system would be the dial plan. As in, will the modems, or other communications applications be okay with a two digit phone number? Or do you need to make the phone system use longer phone numbers. (As I type this, I seem to remember Nortel systems having an option. I bet Partner systems do too.) I'd cross this particular bridge when you get there, if you get there. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Dec 3 23:25:51 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 21:25:51 -0800 Subject: PBX (or something) for modem testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 8:35 PM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > That said, I went out to eBay to see if I could source a 2-8 line > something to help, and got smacked around with my lack of telephone > system knowledge. > > So, any ideas (or links to eBay auctions) of brands/models/etc. I should > focus on? > When I worked in a group that was doing modem related software over 20 years ago two of the telephone line simulators we used were from Teltone and from TAS. You can find Teltone TLS-2, 3, 4, and 5 boxes on eBay. The TLS-2 and TLS-3 are two line boxes, the TLS-4 and TLS-5 are four line boxes. If I remember correctly we had a TLS-5 model that could do more advanced things like Call Waiting and Caller ID signalling. If you're patient you might find a reasonable deal on one of these. Search eBay for "Teltone TLS" and look at completed item sale prices. The TAS Telephone Network Emulators were much more serious pieces of complex programmable test equipment. We had a big TAS Series II box, which was looped through an additional TAS 240 voiceband subscriber loop emulator which could introduce various impairments on the line. If you search eBay for "TAS telphone emulator" you'll see some of those boxes. Doesn't look like those are typically cheap unless they are likely broken, and they are bigger and heavier than you would want to deal with anyway. I might have a Teltone TLS-3 that I don't really need. The only problem would be finding it hidden under other stuff... From cruff at ruffspot.net Tue Dec 3 18:51:52 2019 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 17:51:52 -0700 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just in case someone else hasn't already responded, the P112 does not use DOS style fdisk partitioning for a hard disk. It is done in the BIOS image, and then the logical disks have to be initialized. This is described in the "P112 GIDE Construction.pdf" document. I've only used 3.5" floppies, which work fine. You can also attach a PATA CD-ROM drive and access disks with a program that escapes my memory at the moment. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Dec 3 19:06:39 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 01:06:39 +0000 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/3/19 7:51 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote: > Just in case someone else hasn't already responded, the P112 does not use DOS style fdisk partitioning for a hard disk. It is done in the BIOS image, and then the logical disks have to be initialized. This is described in the "P112 GIDE Construction.pdf" document. > > I've only used 3.5" floppies, which work fine. You can also attach a PATA CD-ROM drive and access disks with a program that escapes my memory at the moment. > Along this line I have solved one problem. I mentioned INIT in RSX180 printing gibberish on the screen when trying to init a hard disk partition where it had worked on a floppy. Problem was the size of the partitions. I had tried just making one partition for the test I learned that FDISK will make partitions too big for any of the P112 OSes. I now have a hard disk with 5 partitions to play with. On to the next problem. bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 3 19:15:00 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 17:15:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: > Along this line I have solved one problem. I mentioned INIT in > RSX180 printing gibberish on the screen when trying to init a > hard disk partition where it had worked on a floppy. Problem > was the size of the partitions. I had tried just making one > partition for the test I learned that FDISK will make partitions > too big for any of the P112 OSes. I now have a hard disk with > 5 partitions to play with. On to the next problem. Is it a specific size limit? (something on the order of number of bits for block number?) From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Dec 3 19:55:05 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 01:55:05 +0000 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/3/19 8:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote: > On Wed, 4 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: >> Along this line I have solved one problem.? I mentioned INIT in >> RSX180 printing gibberish on the screen when trying to init a >> hard disk partition where it had worked on a floppy.? Problem >> was the size of the partitions.? I had tried just making one >> partition for the test I learned that FDISK will make partitions >> too big for any of the P112 OSes.? I now have a hard disk with >> 5 partitions to play with.? On to the? next problem. > > Is it a specific size limit? > (something on the order of number of bits for block number?) Don't know, but I suspect it's around 32M. I seem to remember seeing something mentioned somewhere. I just divided a 42M Seagate into 5 partitions to play with. I may test the limits eventually but for right now I would just like to get some of the OSes loaded on the hard disk so I can work with them. Especially RSX180 as I have some other plans for that one. bill From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Dec 4 03:01:02 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 10:01:02 +0100 (CET) Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net> Message-ID: Dear Mister Noname, On Tue, 3 Dec 2019, it was written > That's _LOSSY_ JBIG2. > > YOU DON"T HAVE TO USE LOSSY MODE! Don't shout!! And for the topic: you don't have to use JBIG2. Space isn't really an issue today for scanned bilevel documents, so you can just stick with TIFF G4 or PNG. Christian PS: You should have a look at the netiquette that says "Only post with a name" and "Be polite, don't shout". From Mark at Misty.com Wed Dec 4 09:10:11 2019 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 10:10:11 -0500 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191204151011.GA16799@allie.home.misty.com> Hi Bill, On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 01:06:39AM +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 12/3/19 7:51 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote: > > Just in case someone else hasn't already responded, the P112 does not use DOS style fdisk partitioning for a hard disk. It is done in the BIOS image, and then the logical disks have to be initialized. This is described in the "P112 GIDE Construction.pdf" document. > > > > I've only used 3.5" floppies, which work fine. You can also attach a PATA CD-ROM drive and access disks with a program that escapes my memory at the moment. > > > > Along this line I have solved one problem. I mentioned INIT in > RSX180 printing gibberish on the screen when trying to init a > hard disk partition where it had worked on a floppy. Problem > was the size of the partitions. I had tried just making one > partition for the test I learned that FDISK will make partitions > too big for any of the P112 OSes. I now have a hard disk with > 5 partitions to play with. On to the next problem. > > bill I have a pair of P112 systems, both with GIDE interfaces, booting CP/M from CF cards successfully. I have not done anything with RSX180 though. I have been meaning to try and get one reading/writing 8", ideally 3270 format, CP/M floppies, but have not gotten around to working on this yet, and have no idea how easy or difficult that might be. When I put these together and was getting them working initially, Terry Gulczynski was very helpful. See his site at http://www.stack180.com/ You may want to get the latest P112 ROM image and corresponding CF card image from his site. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas , KC3DRE From Mark at Misty.com Wed Dec 4 09:10:11 2019 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 10:10:11 -0500 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191204151011.GA16799@allie.home.misty.com> Hi Bill, On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 01:06:39AM +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 12/3/19 7:51 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote: > > Just in case someone else hasn't already responded, the P112 does not use DOS style fdisk partitioning for a hard disk. It is done in the BIOS image, and then the logical disks have to be initialized. This is described in the "P112 GIDE Construction.pdf" document. > > > > I've only used 3.5" floppies, which work fine. You can also attach a PATA CD-ROM drive and access disks with a program that escapes my memory at the moment. > > > > Along this line I have solved one problem. I mentioned INIT in > RSX180 printing gibberish on the screen when trying to init a > hard disk partition where it had worked on a floppy. Problem > was the size of the partitions. I had tried just making one > partition for the test I learned that FDISK will make partitions > too big for any of the P112 OSes. I now have a hard disk with > 5 partitions to play with. On to the next problem. > > bill I have a pair of P112 systems, both with GIDE interfaces, booting CP/M from CF cards successfully. I have not done anything with RSX180 though. I have been meaning to try and get one reading/writing 8", ideally 3270 format, CP/M floppies, but have not gotten around to working on this yet, and have no idea how easy or difficult that might be. When I put these together and was getting them working initially, Terry Gulczynski was very helpful. See his site at http://www.stack180.com/ You may want to get the latest P112 ROM image and corresponding CF card image from his site. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas , KC3DRE From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Wed Dec 4 09:37:13 2019 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (fozztexx at fozztexx.com) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 07:37:13 -0800 Subject: PBX (or something) for modem testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 3, 2019, at 8:35 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > So, any ideas (or links to eBay auctions) of brands/models/etc. I should focus on? I recommend building an Asterisk PBX using either a junker PC or a Raspberry Pi. If you use a PC then you can get a cheap/clone TDM400P PCI card and configure it with whatever combination of FXS and FXO modules you want. I have mine setup with three FXS modules to go to phones/modems and one FXO to go to a phone line. If you want to be able to use rotary phones I recommend adding a Grandstream HT502. I picked up 4 of them in a lot off eBay for $20 shipped last year. I built myself a micro-PBX using a Raspberry Pi and a HT502 all embedded in a small case which fits neatly under a Western Electric 500 phone. Unfortunately I still haven't gotten around to making a blog post or video with the exact details of how I built the micro-PBX, but here's the Twitter thread on it: https://twitter.com/FozzTexx/status/998980675620429825?s=20 -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 4 11:07:39 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 12:07:39 -0500 Subject: DEC CR11 Message-ID: Can the DEC M8291 CR11/CM11 controller card work with a DEC branded Documation M600 reader as well as the M200? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 4 11:27:37 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 12:27:37 -0500 Subject: FS: VAX-11/780 w/ CSPI array processor Message-ID: Unfortunately I need to sell my VAX - an original 11/780, but with a CSPI array processor hidden in a third matching DECcabinet. This was used to control an xray crystallography machine years ago, so the VAX itself is fairly minimal, but with quite a lot of number crunching horsepower. It has not been powered up in perhaps 15 years, but is in fantastic condition. The only real flaw is that at one point some water dripped on the top, so the blue paint marred in one spot. The easy way to take care of that is to simply replace the sheet metal with a nice one from another standard DEC cabinet. Or stack a few books on top! I have tapes with the CSPI software (does Al need it?). Lots of DECdocs as well. Throw me a number if you are interested. This is not a fire sale, so be reasonable. I will work on getting some pictures. There are no drives with this. I suppose eventually this will go on Ebay - but I really hate Ebay at this point. The only issue is that right now is not the time to move the beast. Snow snow snow, and cleaning the dock is a big job, so shipping might have to wait until spring. -- Will, IBM land in the Hudson Valley From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 4 11:40:43 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 12:40:43 -0500 Subject: PBX (or something) for modem testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 12:26 AM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > When I worked in a group that was doing modem related software over 20 > years ago two of the telephone line simulators we used were from > Teltone and from TAS. > > You can find Teltone TLS-2, 3, 4, and 5 boxes on eBay. The TLS-2 and > TLS-3 are two line boxes, the TLS-4 and TLS-5 are four line boxes. I have a TLS-4 box. It's handy. We got it because we were developing our own TelCo simulator, 2 line, but you could dial different numbers to simulate different connection failure conditions (busy, fast busy, half-connect...) We did end up shipping our own box but it wasn't a big seller. It was fantastic to have around, though, when I was writing autodialer software for our product and I needed to simulate different external events on demand to test error reporting and recovery. I can definitely recommend the TLS products for a small setup. -ethan P.S. - I know where my TLS-4 is and this thread reminds me I need to find the manual for it. I could bring it and some other gear to a Vintage Computer Fest for a display that's centered around serial comms and dialup. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 4 11:52:05 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 12:52:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC CR11 Message-ID: <20191204175205.265FA18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Donzelli > Can the DEC M8291 CR11/CM11 controller card work with a DEC branded > Documation M600 reader as well as the M200? Should do; the 'CR11/CM11 system manual' (DEC-11-HCRMA-C-D) mentions it, although it doesn't provide extensive coverage. I guess that version of the CR11 manual isn't available online; please let me know if you need me to scan it. Noel From 821 at 128.ca Wed Dec 4 10:26:55 2019 From: 821 at 128.ca (kevin) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 00:26:55 +0800 Subject: PBX (or something) for modem testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Whats wrong with DIGI-PULSE __ ?On 4/12/2019, 11:37 PM, "cctalk on behalf of fozztexx--- via cctalk" wrote: On Dec 3, 2019, at 8:35 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > So, any ideas (or links to eBay auctions) of brands/models/etc. I should focus on? I recommend building an Asterisk PBX using either a junker PC or a Raspberry Pi. If you use a PC then you can get a cheap/clone TDM400P PCI card and configure it with whatever combination of FXS and FXO modules you want. I have mine setup with three FXS modules to go to phones/modems and one FXO to go to a phone line. If you want to be able to use rotary phones I recommend adding a Grandstream HT502. I picked up 4 of them in a lot off eBay for $20 shipped last year. I built myself a micro-PBX using a Raspberry Pi and a HT502 all embedded in a small case which fits neatly under a Western Electric 500 phone. Unfortunately I still haven't gotten around to making a blog post or video with the exact details of how I built the micro-PBX, but here's the Twitter thread on it: https://twitter.com/FozzTexx/status/998980675620429825?s=20 -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Dec 4 11:22:34 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 17:22:34 +0000 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: <1ad63bbc-b2f2-40c3-adc4-ddffce121355@email.android.com> References: <1ad63bbc-b2f2-40c3-adc4-ddffce121355@email.android.com> Message-ID: On 12/3/19 11:00 PM, Lamar Owen wrote: > > > On Dec 3, 2019 8:55 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctech > wrote: > > Especially RSX180 as I have some other plans for that one. > > RSX180?? Learn about something new everyday!? This tidbit alone was > worth watching the thread. > Well, glad it helped. And here's more... I have succeeded in getting RSX-180 installed on a hard disk. In doing so I have learned some things that others might consider valuable as well. Disk sizes and formats are more important than one might realize from reading the support page. Oversized hard disk partitions cause really strange behavior totally unrelated to disk I/O. When I tried to use a disk partition that was too big the system merely spewed garbage to the screen. But the second lesson is even more important. The Support Page states: "For best performance format the floppy first under CP/M, so the sectors will have the optimum interleave value for the P112 hardware. Otherwise, disk accesses will be very slow." This is not accurate. When I used a brand new pre-formatted floppy without formatting it under CP/M it booted but many of the commands failed to work and even th4e directory could not be seen. Formatting on CP/M and then using rawrite to place the image on the floppy fixed that. I have been having a problem getting CP/M 3 to boot and now suspect it may be the same problem. Again, I used a pre-formatted brand new floppy and rawrite. When I try to boot it starts loading and then spews what looks like random garbage to the screen. I am going to try using a CP/M formatted floppy and I actually expect it will fix the problem. bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 4 12:12:38 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 13:12:38 -0500 Subject: DEC CR11 In-Reply-To: <20191204175205.265FA18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20191204175205.265FA18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 12:52 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: William Donzelli > > > Can the DEC M8291 CR11/CM11 controller card work with a DEC branded > > Documation M600 reader as well as the M200? > > Should do; the 'CR11/CM11 system manual' (DEC-11-HCRMA-C-D) mentions it, > although it doesn't provide extensive coverage. > > I guess that version of the CR11 manual isn't available online; please let > me > know if you need me to scan it. > > Noel > I believe I have the engineering drawings document if this is not otherwise available. Bill From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 4 12:18:41 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 13:18:41 -0500 Subject: DEC CR11 In-Reply-To: <20191204175205.265FA18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20191204175205.265FA18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > Should do; the 'CR11/CM11 system manual' (DEC-11-HCRMA-C-D) mentions it, > although it doesn't provide extensive coverage. > My manual only mentions the M200, but it may be an early edition (before the M600 came out?). -- Will From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 4 12:45:52 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 13:45:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC CR11 Message-ID: <20191204184552.432F118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Donzelli > My manual only mentions the M200, but it may be an early edition What is it, and what date is it? DEC-11-HCRB-D, avilable online, is March, '72. DEC-11-HCRMA-C-D is June, '73. I see that EK-CR11-TM-004 is also available online: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/EK-CR11-TM-004%20CR11-CM11%20Card%20Reader%20System%20Manual.pdf It's from July '75, and also mentions the M600. > From: Bill Degnan > I believe I have the engineering drawings document if this is not > otherwise available. Bitsavers has the August '71 edition; if yours is later than that, it would be useful, _particularly_ if it has the M8291, which is the later card. Noel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 4 13:17:17 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 14:17:17 -0500 Subject: DEC CR11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 12:08 PM William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Can the DEC M8291 CR11/CM11 controller card work with a DEC branded > Documation M600 reader as well as the M200? I think so but I haven't had a chance to try it out yet (I have an M600, generic though not DEC-branded, and I have an M8291). I lack the standard cable. Given what I have, I'm likely to have to make an adapter for a standard 40-pin cable myself. I don't know of any electrical or logical reason it shouldn't work. -ethan From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Dec 4 14:07:38 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 13:07:38 -0700 Subject: PBX (or something) for modem testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/4/19 8:37 AM, fozztexx--- via cctalk wrote: > I recommend building an Asterisk PBX using either a junker PC or a > Raspberry Pi. What sort of connection speeds are you getting? What codec(s) are you using? ulaw / alaw / something else? What protocol(s) are you using? SIP / IAX / SCCP (a.k.a. skinny)? What sort of dial plan are you using? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From dave at mitton.com Wed Dec 4 14:05:26 2019 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 15:05:26 -0500 Subject: PBX (or something) for modem testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191204200529.A17CB273F2@mx1.ezwind.net> Jim, FWIW: Last time I had company money to deal with this issue I bought a similar model of this: A Viking DLE-200 https://www.amazon.com/Viking-DLE-200B-Two-Way-Line-Simulator/dp/B004PXK314 Dave. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 Message: 18 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 22:35:40 -0600 From: Jim Brain ? To continue validating modem functionality, I think it makes sense to set up a closed loop phone system in my lab that will function well enough to allow modems to connect to each other (dial tone, ringing, busy signal, etc.). I know I can probably whip something up with a 9 v battery and a piece of cable with rj11s, but I think that will fall short. That said, I went out to eBay to see if I could source a 2-8 line something to help, and got smacked around with my lack of telephone system knowledge. So, any ideas (or links to eBay auctions) of brands/models/etc. I should focus on? Also, if anyone has any modems lying around gathering dust, I probably should source a few more models. tcpser handles Hayes "+++" spec correctly, but I should probably support TIES as well, to cite one example. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 4 16:46:56 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 22:46:56 +0000 Subject: DECpc 425SE In-Reply-To: References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: I'm working on a DECpc 425SE right now and I've not been able to find any useful documentation. The laptop seems to work but has a BIOS password set. I suspect that if I remove the button cell then it will forget the password (or at least that's my hope). The main battery comes out. There's no sign of leakage. It's a SANYO 8HR-4/3A (510295-001). The button cell looks very much like it is soldered in. It's approximately 12mm in diameter. I've read numerous warnings not to go to near a button cell with a soldering iron so I'm not really keen to do that, especially as I don't know for sure that it will fix the problem. I've looked for a password reset jumper of pads but I can't see one. I think someone has been here before me as the four screws that hold the two halves of the unit together are all missing. Any hints welcome. Thanks Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 4 18:33:07 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 19:33:07 -0500 Subject: DECpc 425SE In-Reply-To: References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <5297A693-39A0-4FA1-8A99-7DF8E1971A12@comcast.net> > On Dec 4, 2019, at 5:46 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > ... > The button cell looks very much like it is soldered in. It's approximately 12mm in diameter. I've read numerous warnings not to go to near a button cell with a soldering iron so I'm not really keen to do that, especially as I don't know for sure that it will fix the problem. I'm curious what the reason is for that warning. After all, the thing was soldered in to begin with; it certainly won't mind the heat. You'd want to make sure you don't short it out while doing it, of course; some insulating tape might help with that. paul From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Dec 4 18:36:36 2019 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 00:36:36 +0000 Subject: DECpc 425SE In-Reply-To: <5297A693-39A0-4FA1-8A99-7DF8E1971A12@comcast.net> References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <5297A693-39A0-4FA1-8A99-7DF8E1971A12@comcast.net> Message-ID: <46D80C9A-877B-4972-BB02-D010271B52B1@gmail.com> >> ... >> The button cell looks very much like it is soldered in. It's approximately 12mm in diameter. I've read numerous warnings not to go to near a button cell with a soldering iron so I'm not really keen to do that, especially as I don't know for sure that it will fix the problem. > > I'm curious what the reason is for that warning. After all, the thing was soldered in to begin with; it certainly won't mind the heat. You'd want to make sure you don't short it out while doing it, of course; some insulating tape might help with that. > Many years ago I removed the soldered coin cell from the control board of the Compaq 7000 series and replaced it with a 2032 coin cell holder, worked nicely so I can?t see why it wouldn?t work in this DECivetti monstrosity. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 4 18:53:10 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 00:53:10 +0000 Subject: DECpc 425SE In-Reply-To: <46D80C9A-877B-4972-BB02-D010271B52B1@gmail.com> References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <5297A693-39A0-4FA1-8A99-7DF8E1971A12@comcast.net> <46D80C9A-877B-4972-BB02-D010271B52B1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 05/12/2019 00:36, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >>> ... >>> The button cell looks very much like it is soldered in. It's approximately 12mm in diameter. I've read numerous warnings not to go to near a button cell with a soldering iron so I'm not really keen to do that, especially as I don't know for sure that it will fix the problem. >> I'm curious what the reason is for that warning. After all, the thing was soldered in to begin with; it certainly won't mind the heat. You'd want to make sure you don't short it out while doing it, of course; some insulating tape might help with that. >> There are plenty of warnings, e.g.: http://www.cr2032.co/soldering-article.html > > Many years ago I removed the soldered coin cell from the control board of the Compaq 7000 series and replaced it with a 2032 coin cell holder, worked nicely so I can?t see why it wouldn?t work in this DECivetti monstrosity. > Well I suppose removing it means unsoldering the two tabs from the motherboard rather than unsoldering the tabs from the cell, so maybe I'll give that a go. Then I could work out what the battery is, get a suitable holder and solder that in. It would, however, be much more useful if a manual turned up and I could just perform a system reset and get past the password that way! Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 4 19:08:24 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 20:08:24 -0500 Subject: DECpc 425SE In-Reply-To: References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <5297A693-39A0-4FA1-8A99-7DF8E1971A12@comcast.net> <46D80C9A-877B-4972-BB02-D010271B52B1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0052F646-B659-434F-940F-F70952AC9F5F@comcast.net> > On Dec 4, 2019, at 7:53 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > On 05/12/2019 00:36, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >>>> ... >>>> The button cell looks very much like it is soldered in. It's approximately 12mm in diameter. I've read numerous warnings not to go to near a button cell with a soldering iron so I'm not really keen to do that, especially as I don't know for sure that it will fix the problem. >>> I'm curious what the reason is for that warning. After all, the thing was soldered in to begin with; it certainly won't mind the heat. You'd want to make sure you don't short it out while doing it, of course; some insulating tape might help with that. >>> > > There are plenty of warnings, e.g.: http://www.cr2032.co/soldering-article.html Ok, but that's different, it talks about soldering directly to the cell. >> Many years ago I removed the soldered coin cell from the control board of the Compaq 7000 series and replaced it with a 2032 coin cell holder, worked nicely so I can?t see why it wouldn?t work in this DECivetti monstrosity. >> > > Well I suppose removing it means unsoldering the two tabs from the motherboard rather than unsoldering the tabs from the cell, so maybe I'll give that a go. Then I could work out what the battery is, get a suitable holder and solder that in. > > It would, however, be much more useful if a manual turned up and I could just perform a system reset and get past the password that way! Indeed. But clearly a solder-tab coin cell is meant to be soldered :-) so unsoldering those solder joints has to be safe by definition (so long as you are reasonably prompt). And if the cell is still good, you could then solder it right back in if you want. paul From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Dec 4 19:17:20 2019 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 01:17:20 +0000 Subject: DECpc 425SE In-Reply-To: References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <5297A693-39A0-4FA1-8A99-7DF8E1971A12@comcast.net> <46D80C9A-877B-4972-BB02-D010271B52B1@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> Many years ago I removed the soldered coin cell from the control board of the Compaq 7000 series and replaced it with a 2032 coin cell holder, worked nicely so I can?t see why it wouldn?t work in this DECivetti monstrosity. >> > > Well I suppose removing it means unsoldering the two tabs from the motherboard rather than unsoldering the tabs from the cell, so maybe I'll give that a go. Then I could work out what the battery is, get a suitable holder and solder that in. Yep. I?d never try and fasten tabs to batteries, they?re flash welded rather than soldered. Someone on hackaday reckoned they had a procedure to do it but fitting holders instead is so much easier. > It would, however, be much more useful if a manual turned up and I could just perform a system reset and get past the password that way! I wish I could help. I only ever worked on those when they were new. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Wed Dec 4 20:01:04 2019 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 18:01:04 -0800 Subject: PBX (or something) for modem testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AEC9E76-62E2-4FA5-A010-3431C2205693@fozztexx.com> On Dec 4, 2019, at 12:07 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > What sort of connection speeds are you getting? > > What codec(s) are you using? ulaw / alaw / something else? https://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/230/using-modems-without-phone-lines -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Dec 4 20:28:47 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 19:28:47 -0700 Subject: PBX (or something) for modem testing In-Reply-To: <4AEC9E76-62E2-4FA5-A010-3431C2205693@fozztexx.com> References: <4AEC9E76-62E2-4FA5-A010-3431C2205693@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: <63828325-3e94-9fad-862f-83b89527b2f0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/4/19 7:01 PM, Chris Osborn via cctalk wrote: > https://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/230/using-modems-without-phone-lines Thank you for the link to the write up. I'm glad to learn that you're getting close to the 33.6, what I understand to be the pure analog maximum. I guess that since you're using the TDM400P, you aren't using a VoIP protocol (SIP / IAX / SCCP / MGCP / etc.) between your FXS ports. But you are using SIP as your external DID. I don't see any information about a dial plan. What sort of numbers are you dialing between your FXS ports? How many digits are they? Do you have to dial a 9, or any other digit, to make an outside call? Or are you determining this by the number that you're calling or number of digits therein? I've often wondered about doing this myself for reasons. So I'm quite curious what sort of experience others have in doing it, as well as technical details. Also, I'm glad to find your blog. I follow you on Twitter and will add your blog to my RSS reader. :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die -- Grant. . . . unix || die From useddec at gmail.com Wed Dec 4 21:57:58 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 21:57:58 -0600 Subject: DEC CR11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I pretty much agree with everyone. It's been a few years, but I'm 98+% sure the M8291 should work with all DEC branded Documation card readers. I'm still looking for a cable for a few people, but I do have a board if you need one. Please contact me off list. On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 11:08 AM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Can the DEC M8291 CR11/CM11 controller card work with a DEC branded > Documation M600 reader as well as the M200? > > -- > Will > From dk at thewaffleiron.net Wed Dec 4 19:47:48 2019 From: dk at thewaffleiron.net (David Kuder) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 20:47:48 -0500 Subject: PBX (or something) for modem testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you go the Pi route, a ADIT600 is a good option. Get one with three FXS 8C cards and a VOIP Router card. This works great for upto 28.8 / 33.6 from my experience. -DK On Wed, Dec 4, 2019, 10:37 AM fozztexx--- via cctalk wrote: > > > On Dec 3, 2019, at 8:35 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk > wrote: > > > So, any ideas (or links to eBay auctions) of brands/models/etc. I should > focus on? > > I recommend building an Asterisk PBX using either a junker PC or a > Raspberry Pi. If you use a PC then you can get a cheap/clone TDM400P PCI > card and configure it with whatever combination of FXS and FXO modules you > want. I have mine setup with three FXS modules to go to phones/modems and > one FXO to go to a phone line. > > If you want to be able to use rotary phones I recommend adding a > Grandstream HT502. I picked up 4 of them in a lot off eBay for $20 shipped > last year. I built myself a micro-PBX using a Raspberry Pi and a HT502 all > embedded in a small case which fits neatly under a Western Electric 500 > phone. Unfortunately I still haven't gotten around to making a blog post or > video with the exact details of how I built the micro-PBX, but here's the > Twitter thread on it: > > https://twitter.com/FozzTexx/status/998980675620429825?s=20 > > -- > Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx > Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com > > From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Dec 4 20:55:25 2019 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 21:55:25 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV PALs Message-ID: I have a TRS-80 Model III with a IV upgrade in it (non gate array). I have a hunch that one or two of the HALs are bad (the primary one being 8075208). Anyone have the JED files to program any of these HALs into PALs or GALs ? Anyone know a source for these ? Anyone know if these can be read, or if they are protected (for example, if I were able to borrow some working ones, could they be duplicated ?) ? Thanks, -- Curt From brain at jbrain.com Thu Dec 5 00:20:49 2019 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 00:20:49 -0600 Subject: PBX (or something) for modem testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/4/2019 7:47 PM, David Kuder via cctalk wrote: > If you go the Pi route, a ADIT600 is a good option. Get one with three FXS > 8C cards and a VOIP Router card. This works great for upto 28.8 / 33.6 from > my experience. Been reading up on all the units.? On this one: Do you have to have a VOIP card?? I just want to talk within the PBX. Where does one source those connectors for the various lines? Can an 8B card be OK (I see some on eBay)? JIm From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Dec 5 08:18:43 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 14:18:43 +0000 Subject: DECpc 425SE In-Reply-To: References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <5297A693-39A0-4FA1-8A99-7DF8E1971A12@comcast.net> <46D80C9A-877B-4972-BB02-D010271B52B1@gmail.com> , Message-ID: With the solder tabs you are not soldering directly to the case, you are soldering to the tab. If you try to solder to the case, the electrolyte will evaporate causing excess pressure in the case. This will burst the seal. For a lithium coin cell this can mean a fire. As was mentioned, the solder tabs are usually spot welded to the case. The heat is momentary and little pressure is created in the cell. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Adrian Graham via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, December 4, 2019 5:17 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DECpc 425SE >> Many years ago I removed the soldered coin cell from the control board of the Compaq 7000 series and replaced it with a 2032 coin cell holder, worked nicely so I can?t see why it wouldn?t work in this DECivetti monstrosity. >> > > Well I suppose removing it means unsoldering the two tabs from the motherboard rather than unsoldering the tabs from the cell, so maybe I'll give that a go. Then I could work out what the battery is, get a suitable holder and solder that in. Yep. I?d never try and fasten tabs to batteries, they?re flash welded rather than soldered. Someone on hackaday reckoned they had a procedure to do it but fitting holders instead is so much easier. > It would, however, be much more useful if a manual turned up and I could just perform a system reset and get past the password that way! I wish I could help. I only ever worked on those when they were new. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From dkgrizzly at thewaffleiron.net Thu Dec 5 09:02:13 2019 From: dkgrizzly at thewaffleiron.net (dkgrizzly at thewaffleiron.net) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 10:02:13 -0500 Subject: PBX (or something) for modem testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008601d5ab7c$fad33de0$f079b9a0$@thewaffleiron.net> As an example of a unit that should work: https://www.ebay.com/itm/CAC-Carrier-Access-Adit-600-TDM-Controller-CMG-01-Router-2-FXS-8C-Cards-AC-616/362591377447?hash=item546c215827:g:4FEAAOSwQLRbqncW:sc:UPSGround!30106!US!-1 The FXS cards output out the back using a 50-pin / 25-pair AMP telephone cable. Look for RJ21 breakout, RJ21 octapus, or RJ21 hydra cables. You could also go the 66-block & AMP cable route if you want something more permanent that is mounted to a wall somewhere. I was lucky to find a RJ21 breakout module on ebay that had 6 "8P8C" jacks in a tiny housing. The important bits are the CMG card, and the 8C cards. You can get by with earlier FXS cards, but the 4th & 5th gen FXS cards don't do caller ID and aren't as flexible on what line types they can simulate. The ADIT itself isn't a PBX, but a channel bank. It just converts between analog and digital formats, without an asterisk or other switch to talk to, it can't do much beyond convert between T1 lines and analog extensions. The CMG card talks to asterisk over MGCP, and will give you 48 virtual T1 channels, you can sent them out the T1 jacks on the back of the ADIT, or convert some of them to analog FXS channels. Karl Brose over on the c-netlist ( https://groups.io/g/c-netlist ) is an expert of sorts on these units and has been an immense help getting mine working. He has a patched Asterisk source tree with a modified MGCP driver called chan_xgcp that makes everything work better. I was able to get his help setting up my system for VCF Midwest in Chicago, he provided the drivers and example configs that worked well. -DK -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jim Brain via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 1:21 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: PBX (or something) for modem testing On 12/4/2019 7:47 PM, David Kuder via cctalk wrote: > If you go the Pi route, a ADIT600 is a good option. Get one with three > FXS 8C cards and a VOIP Router card. This works great for upto 28.8 / > 33.6 from my experience. Been reading up on all the units. On this one: Do you have to have a VOIP card? I just want to talk within the PBX. Where does one source those connectors for the various lines? Can an 8B card be OK (I see some on eBay)? JIm From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Dec 5 10:57:28 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 10:57:28 -0600 Subject: RSTS emulation in a browser In-Reply-To: <008601d5ab7c$fad33de0$f079b9a0$@thewaffleiron.net> References: <008601d5ab7c$fad33de0$f079b9a0$@thewaffleiron.net> Message-ID: <20191205165831.B2AE72740C@mx1.ezwind.net> Back in 2000, Jay Jaeger generously helped me read some old backup tapes from a RSTS V7.0-07 system. I'm not sure why I hadn't tried before, but I recently thought I could try to run those circa-1982 BASIC-PLUS and FORTRAN programs under emulation. And maybe even in a browser. There's a JavaScript emulator at: https://skn.noip.me/pdp11/pdp11.html I can 'boot rl2' on that web site and it runs, but when I try to run it locally in a browser, it hangs. Am I missing something simple? That page is maintained by Paul Nankervis . - John From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 5 11:39:03 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 10:39:03 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV PALs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 11:08 PM rescue via cctalk wrote: > I have a TRS-80 Model III with a IV upgrade in it (non gate array). > I have a hunch that one or two of the HALs are bad (the primary one > Anyone know if these can be read, or if they are protected (for > example, if I were able to borrow some working ones, could they be > duplicated ?) ? Last year I read most of the PALs and HALs of a TRS-80 Model 16B main board (same as Model 12 main board). I was surprised that none of the PALs were protected, and even more surprised that some (but not all) of the HALs could be read as PALs. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Dec 5 17:34:03 2019 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 17:34:03 -0600 Subject: HP 7220C plotter port settings Message-ID: <4fb1b50c-720a-cde6-48bd-86006e57fff8@gmail.com> Hi all, I picked up an HP 7220C flatbed plotter the other day which (after freeing the stuck carriage) is responding to panel commands in 'local' mode. For the terminal RS-232 interface, does anyone happen to know: a) The character size (7 or 8 bits)? b) If the connection between terminal and plotter is supposed to be straight through (i.e. 1:1 pin mapping), null modem, or something else entirely? I'm not sure if the plotter considers itself DTE or DCE, given that it has a modem output port (i.e. it sits partway along in the chain of things). Oh, there's a "conf test" switch setting on the back - does anyone know the purpose of that? I'm wondering if it's supposed to echo back to the terminal any data that's sent to the plotter, but that's purely a guess. Sadly there don't seem to be any docs online (or much in the way of any info, to be honest). thanks, Jules From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Dec 5 18:13:01 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 16:13:01 -0800 Subject: HP 7220C plotter port settings In-Reply-To: <4fb1b50c-720a-cde6-48bd-86006e57fff8@gmail.com> References: <4fb1b50c-720a-cde6-48bd-86006e57fff8@gmail.com> Message-ID: 7220C_7220T_OperatingAndProgrammingManual_07220-90003_229pages_Feb81.pdf http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=1567 Page 195, Connecting the RS-232-C Interface On Thu, Dec 5, 2019, 3:34 PM Jules Richardson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > > I picked up an HP 7220C flatbed plotter the other day which (after freeing > the stuck carriage) is responding to panel commands in 'local' mode. For > the terminal RS-232 interface, does anyone happen to know: > > a) The character size (7 or 8 bits)? > > b) If the connection between terminal and plotter is supposed to be > straight through (i.e. 1:1 pin mapping), null modem, or something else > entirely? > > I'm not sure if the plotter considers itself DTE or DCE, given that it has > a modem output port (i.e. it sits partway along in the chain of things). > > Oh, there's a "conf test" switch setting on the back - does anyone know > the > purpose of that? I'm wondering if it's supposed to echo back to the > terminal any data that's sent to the plotter, but that's purely a guess. > Sadly there don't seem to be any docs online (or much in the way of any > info, to be honest). > > thanks, > > Jules > > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Dec 5 18:55:54 2019 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:55:54 -0600 Subject: HP 7220C plotter port settings In-Reply-To: References: <4fb1b50c-720a-cde6-48bd-86006e57fff8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8cea758c-d92f-75cd-766c-4321f2ccd717@gmail.com> On 12/5/19 6:13 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > 7220C_7220T_OperatingAndProgrammingManual_07220-90003_229pages_Feb81.pdf > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=1567 doh! Thanks. I'd been to that site already, but somehow managed to completely miss the 'documentation' link. That should do the trick, I'm sure :-) Jules From lowen at pari.edu Thu Dec 5 19:49:36 2019 From: lowen at pari.edu (Lamar Owen) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 20:49:36 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV PALs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0766c703-76b6-cbf3-a001-2b8cdea884e6@pari.edu> On 12/5/19 12:39 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Last year I read most of the PALs and HALs of a TRS-80 Model 16B main > board (same as Model 12 main board). I was surprised that none of the > PALs were protected, and even more surprised that some (but not all) > of the HALs could be read as PALs. Eric, first, I want to thank you for the excellent M2 ROM disassembly you did; while I was helping debug the MAME trs80m2 emulator your listing was extremely helpful in tracing down the problem which single-stepping in the MAME debugger (it was a bug in the WD1791 emulation of deleted data address marks). Second, there is a published European patent on the Model 4 circuitry; see http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0126305.pdf for the details.? The PAL equations and pinouts begin on PDF page 31. The 12/16B/6000 mainboard's PAL equations are printed in the service manuals for those machines; the 6000 service manual is available on archive.org.? But it is a bit surprising that the security fuse wasn't blown; Jerry Ballard and Frank Durda were both unsure (years ago when I asked them both) if the M4's PALs had the security fuse blown or not, and at that time I didn't have the equipment to try to read them. From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Dec 5 12:24:00 2019 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 13:24:00 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV PALs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80d74f24fdc94b123e8f8183e01ba5c5@localhost> On 2019-12-04 21:55, rescue wrote: > I have a TRS-80 Model III with a IV upgrade in it (non gate array). > > I have a hunch that one or two of the HALs are bad (the primary one > being 8075208). > > Anyone have the JED files to program any of these HALs into PALs or > GALs ? > > Anyone know a source for these ? > > Anyone know if these can be read, or if they are protected (for > example, if I were able to borrow some working ones, could they be > duplicated ?) ? > > Thanks, > > -- Curt It has come to my attention these HALs may be readable as PALs... I'll have to check my programmers and see if any support reading those on mine.... though that still doesn't give me any basis for comparison :-(. Anyone have a spare TRS-80 Model IV PCB that I could read the HALs from.... or someone who can has and can read them. Looks like I do have the HAL that supports the memory upgrade beyond 64k. Mine is not the initial Model IV Rev.... When mounted in the Model III/IV chassis, the RAM is in the bottom right (not top left). My PCB says 8709296 Rev C on it. -- Curt From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 6 18:02:56 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 17:02:56 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV PALs In-Reply-To: <0766c703-76b6-cbf3-a001-2b8cdea884e6@pari.edu> References: <0766c703-76b6-cbf3-a001-2b8cdea884e6@pari.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:49 PM Lamar Owen wrote: > The 12/16B/6000 mainboard's PAL equations are printed in the service > manuals for those machines; Some are, some aren't, and it's doesn't appear that they are 100% accurate, though that might just be formatting errors in their reproduction of the listings. From cube1 at charter.net Fri Dec 6 21:07:19 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 21:07:19 -0600 Subject: RSTS emulation in a browser In-Reply-To: <20191205165831.B2AE72740C@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <008601d5ab7c$fad33de0$f079b9a0$@thewaffleiron.net> <20191205165831.B2AE72740C@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 12/5/2019 10:57 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > Back in 2000, Jay Jaeger generously helped me read some old backup tapes > from a RSTS V7.0-07 system. > > I'm not sure why I hadn't tried before, but I recently thought I could > try to run those circa-1982 BASIC-PLUS and FORTRAN programs under emulation. > And maybe even in a browser. There's a JavaScript emulator at: > > https://skn.noip.me/pdp11/pdp11.html > > I can 'boot rl2' on that web site and it runs, but when I try to > run it locally in a browser, it hangs. > > Am I missing something simple? > > That page is maintained by Paul Nankervis . > > - John > > When I try and contact the site, it times out / can't connect, though I did manage to get an index listing by leaving off the pdp11.html. Not quite sure what you mean by trying to run it "locally". Is it that you downloaded pdp11.zip and unzipped it and pointed at that as a file URL? Or did you copy it to a local web server you have? There are at least three files involved, I spect: pdp11.html, pdp11.js and bootcode.js, and probably vt11,js, pdp-11-45.svg and pdp11-70.svg as well. JRJ From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Fri Dec 6 15:44:26 2019 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 15:44:26 -0600 Subject: HP DesignJet 600 plotter In-Reply-To: References: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net> <5d301bdc-95e6-62a5-d751-75a68c36ac1d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I have an HP DesignJet 600 plotter available free for pickup in NW Indiana. It worked the last time I needed it, sometime in the last 8 years. --tom From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Dec 7 00:45:08 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 00:45:08 -0600 Subject: HP DesignJet 600 plotter In-Reply-To: References: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net> <5d301bdc-95e6-62a5-d751-75a68c36ac1d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 7, 2019 at 12:07 AM Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > > I have an HP DesignJet 600 plotter available free for pickup in NW Indiana. > It worked the last time I needed it, sometime in the last 8 years. Do you know if it's the C2847A or C2848A? One is big; the other is even bigger. From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sat Dec 7 10:18:57 2019 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 11:18:57 -0500 Subject: RSTS emulation in a browser In-Reply-To: References: <008601d5ab7c$fad33de0$f079b9a0$@thewaffleiron.net> <20191205165831.B2AE72740C@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: To answer your question, yes, yuo can down a compacted file or another and it will be able to run locally (done that but not tried yet) It does time out (but if you let it sit, suddenly it pops up, it seems to be at some sort of dynamic IP address that takes a bit to pop up. hope this hellps. bb On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 10:07 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/5/2019 10:57 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > > > Back in 2000, Jay Jaeger generously helped me read some old backup tapes > > from a RSTS V7.0-07 system. > > > > I'm not sure why I hadn't tried before, but I recently thought I could > > try to run those circa-1982 BASIC-PLUS and FORTRAN programs under emulation. > > And maybe even in a browser. There's a JavaScript emulator at: > > > > https://skn.noip.me/pdp11/pdp11.html > > > > I can 'boot rl2' on that web site and it runs, but when I try to > > run it locally in a browser, it hangs. > > > > Am I missing something simple? > > > > That page is maintained by Paul Nankervis . > > > > - John > > > > > > When I try and contact the site, it times out / can't connect, though I > did manage to get an index listing by leaving off the pdp11.html. > > Not quite sure what you mean by trying to run it "locally". Is it that > you downloaded pdp11.zip and unzipped it and pointed at that as a file > URL? Or did you copy it to a local web server you have? > > There are at least three files involved, I spect: pdp11.html, pdp11.js > and bootcode.js, and probably vt11,js, pdp-11-45.svg and pdp11-70.svg as > well. > > JRJ From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 7 12:10:33 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 18:10:33 +0000 Subject: DECpc 425SE In-Reply-To: References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <5297A693-39A0-4FA1-8A99-7DF8E1971A12@comcast.net> <46D80C9A-877B-4972-BB02-D010271B52B1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <74789f9f-f8c6-c617-7f85-e249ba328bdf@ntlworld.com> On 05/12/2019 14:18, dwight via cctalk wrote: > With the solder tabs you are not soldering directly to the case, you are soldering to the tab. > If you try to solder to the case, the electrolyte will evaporate causing excess pressure in the case. This will burst the seal. For a lithium coin cell this can mean a fire. > As was mentioned, the solder tabs are usually spot welded to the case. The heat is momentary and little pressure is created in the cell. I've dismantled the machine enough now to get the mainboard out. Right behind the cell on the opposite side of the PCB? are expansion memory boards. Between those and the PCB is a black square of insulating plastic that is tackily glued to the PCB. That lifts up easily enough. There are plenty of components on this side of the PCB too. It looks like one tab is? right by the label "R337" and the other is between the "R346" and "R351" labels. Just in case anyone else ever follows this path :-) I'm going to set it to one side for now and get to the same stage with the Acorn A3000 (which looks OK but the battery really has to come out now ... it will eventually fail I suppose). I might as well tackle both at the same time ... Maybe I'll take photos as I put it back together, sort of "Haynes manual in reverse". Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Dec 7 15:12:55 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2019 15:12:55 -0600 Subject: RSTS emulation in a browser In-Reply-To: References: <008601d5ab7c$fad33de0$f079b9a0$@thewaffleiron.net> <20191205165831.B2AE72740C@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20191207212000.45F70273B0@mx1.ezwind.net> At 09:07 PM 12/6/2019, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >When I try and contact the site, it times out / can't connect, though I >did manage to get an index listing by leaving off the pdp11.html. I also saw the time?outs but a retry usually fixed it. >Not quite sure what you mean by trying to run it "locally". Is it that >you downloaded pdp11.zip and unzipped it and pointed at that as a file URL? Yes, loading pdp11.html locally. Should work, no? >Or did you copy it to a local web server you have? Yes, I've done that, and it runs fine there. >There are at least three files involved, I spect: pdp11.html, pdp11.js >and bootcode.js, and probably vt11,js, pdp-11-45.svg and pdp11-70.svg as >well. Yes, I've been wishing it was better documented. But all the source is there. - John From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Sat Dec 7 11:01:11 2019 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 11:01:11 -0600 Subject: HP DesignJet 600 plotter In-Reply-To: References: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net> <5d301bdc-95e6-62a5-d751-75a68c36ac1d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <646a5c53-67ef-8042-db94-b090a43e1f2f@figureeightbrewing.com> On 12/7/19 12:45 AM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Dec 7, 2019 at 12:07 AM Tom Uban via cctalk > wrote: >> I have an HP DesignJet 600 plotter available free for pickup in NW Indiana. >> It worked the last time I needed it, sometime in the last 8 years. > Do you know if it's the C2847A or C2848A? One is big; the other is even bigger. > C2848A It's pretty big. I also have a roll of paper for it. From zilogz80.swing at yahoo.ca Sat Dec 7 14:17:49 2019 From: zilogz80.swing at yahoo.ca (Nathan Brown) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 20:17:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Zilog 8000 system replacement boards References: <1933889045.5021085.1575749869675.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1933889045.5021085.1575749869675@mail.yahoo.com> Original asked by : Evan Koblentz?cctalk at snarc.net On Thu Jul 19 14:36:27 CDT 2018..Zilog 8000 system (model 20 and model 32) replacement boards ..As far as the System 8000 model 20 are conserved their microprocessor board schematics and firmware can be found on the internet but the microprocessor and the MMU's might be hard to get. ? (out of production for some time now). .. As far as the MMU's are concerned some System 8000 clones used a different MMU with a custom mapping PROM and or others use a Intelligent MCU to emulate the Zilog MMU's....As far as the Model 32 is concerned that a little different, without the original microprocessor board you could always down grade it to a lesser model. It would be easy to get the Z8001 microprocessor on to a 32 bit data bus.? Just some extra data latches if you could find some one to make a custom microprocessor PCB.Use the Z8001 microprocessor pins Bit//word, AD0, AD1 for data bus size signals.AD1 is for data bits 17 to 24 and data bits 17 to 32 depending on the status of Bit//Word and AD0 singals.AD0 is for data bits 0 to 16 with the correct status of Bit//word and AD0 signal.??Bit//Word with AD0 controllers either a upper byte/Lower byte or 16-bit word transfers...Memory greater that 16M with the Z8001 microprocessor on a full 32-bit address bus is possible with a paged memory management circuit. Drivers ?? by who ??..With the model 32 (and some if its clones) on board firmware and or operating enhancements where used for Z8001 ( and some Z80,000)? microprocessor compatibility.? The only other solution is to reverse design a AT&T 3B2 computer back to the Zilog System 8000 bus or use a custom made ARM based microprocessor card with Z8001 emulation in ROM.?..Most of the Z8000 based microprocessor system I have dealt with are newer than the model 32 or are older then the Zilog MMU's chips.?..Any feed back on this email is welcome at ZilogZ80.swingatYahoo.ca? ? ?At=@ please have a subject (Anti spam).. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Dec 9 05:23:10 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 12:23:10 +0100 (CET) Subject: Zilog 8000 system replacement boards In-Reply-To: <1933889045.5021085.1575749869675@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1933889045.5021085.1575749869675.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1933889045.5021085.1575749869675@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Dec 2019, Nathan Brown wrote: [unreadable blob of text] Nathan, please re-post with proper context, sentences and text formatting. I have a hard time understanding the text. Christian From cube1 at charter.net Mon Dec 9 22:51:07 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 22:51:07 -0600 Subject: RSTS emulation in a browser In-Reply-To: <20191207212000.45F70273B0@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <008601d5ab7c$fad33de0$f079b9a0$@thewaffleiron.net> <20191205165831.B2AE72740C@mx1.ezwind.net> <20191207212000.45F70273B0@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <555d2c65-f307-0b24-ab25-1ea4a262f338@charter.net> On 12/7/2019 3:12 PM, John Foust via cctech wrote: > At 09:07 PM 12/6/2019, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> When I try and contact the site, it times out / can't connect, though I >> did manage to get an index listing by leaving off the pdp11.html. > > I also saw the time?outs but a retry usually fixed it. > >> Not quite sure what you mean by trying to run it "locally". Is it that >> you downloaded pdp11.zip and unzipped it and pointed at that as a file URL? > > Yes, loading pdp11.html locally. Should work, no? > No, not necessarily. A web server provides a content header based on its own internal configuration. For local files, it is determined locally, and so might be different. Also it is possible that there are some file references in there that are not purely relative or that there is another file that is not there. One would have to look at the .html and .js files to see. >> Or did you copy it to a local web server you have? > > Yes, I've done that, and it runs fine there. > >> There are at least three files involved, I spect: pdp11.html, pdp11.js >> and bootcode.js, and probably vt11,js, pdp-11-45.svg and pdp11-70.svg as >> well. > > Yes, I've been wishing it was better documented. But all the source is there. > > - John > > From cube1 at charter.net Mon Dec 9 22:51:07 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 22:51:07 -0600 Subject: RSTS emulation in a browser In-Reply-To: <20191207212000.45F70273B0@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <008601d5ab7c$fad33de0$f079b9a0$@thewaffleiron.net> <20191205165831.B2AE72740C@mx1.ezwind.net> <20191207212000.45F70273B0@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <555d2c65-f307-0b24-ab25-1ea4a262f338@charter.net> On 12/7/2019 3:12 PM, John Foust via cctech wrote: > At 09:07 PM 12/6/2019, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> When I try and contact the site, it times out / can't connect, though I >> did manage to get an index listing by leaving off the pdp11.html. > > I also saw the time?outs but a retry usually fixed it. > >> Not quite sure what you mean by trying to run it "locally". Is it that >> you downloaded pdp11.zip and unzipped it and pointed at that as a file URL? > > Yes, loading pdp11.html locally. Should work, no? > No, not necessarily. A web server provides a content header based on its own internal configuration. For local files, it is determined locally, and so might be different. Also it is possible that there are some file references in there that are not purely relative or that there is another file that is not there. One would have to look at the .html and .js files to see. >> Or did you copy it to a local web server you have? > > Yes, I've done that, and it runs fine there. > >> There are at least three files involved, I spect: pdp11.html, pdp11.js >> and bootcode.js, and probably vt11,js, pdp-11-45.svg and pdp11-70.svg as >> well. > > Yes, I've been wishing it was better documented. But all the source is there. > > - John > > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Dec 10 11:28:59 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 11:28:59 -0600 Subject: RSTS emulation in a browser In-Reply-To: <555d2c65-f307-0b24-ab25-1ea4a262f338@charter.net> References: <008601d5ab7c$fad33de0$f079b9a0$@thewaffleiron.net> <20191205165831.B2AE72740C@mx1.ezwind.net> <20191207212000.45F70273B0@mx1.ezwind.net> <555d2c65-f307-0b24-ab25-1ea4a262f338@charter.net> Message-ID: <20191210175430.C78FD273FE@mx1.ezwind.net> At 10:51 PM 12/9/2019, Jay Jaeger wrote: >No, not necessarily. A web server provides a content header based on >its own internal configuration. For local files, it is determined >locally, and so might be different. > >Also it is possible that there are some file references in there that >are not purely relative or that there is another file that is not there. > One would have to look at the .html and .js files to see. The code looks pretty flat; no folders. It didn't even need any tweaks for file permissions when I uploaded to a web server. The HTML mentions two .js files fpp.js and vg11.js that aren't present on his web or in the zip, but it runs without them. It's not trying to write back to the DSK files, it just keeps an in-memory cache when it's running. I imagined it was something related to security in a local browser. I tried emailing the author but no response yet. http://pdp11.aiju.de/ seems to be a different, simpler PDP emulator written in JavaScript. - John From boris at summitclinic.com Tue Dec 10 14:04:00 2019 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 12:04:00 -0800 Subject: RSTS emulation in a browser In-Reply-To: <20191210175430.C78FD273FE@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <008601d5ab7c$fad33de0$f079b9a0$@thewaffleiron.net> <20191205165831.B2AE72740C@mx1.ezwind.net> <20191207212000.45F70273B0@mx1.ezwind.net> <555d2c65-f307-0b24-ab25-1ea4a262f338@charter.net> <20191210175430.C78FD273FE@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20191210200405.E7C024E68D@mx2.ezwind.net> Downloaded files for previous PDP-11 emulator but couldn't get it to run. Link to German site at bottom of your post works fine and Unix runs about same speed that it ran on my 11/34 in 1983. Scary that coding a PDP-11 emulator in an incredibly inefficient scripting language such as Javascript matches speed of the machine I was using back then. That slowness just applies to Unix; all of my code back then was written in PDP-11 assembler which allowed data sampling at 20 KHz from A/D and essentially bypassed most of RT-11 to get speed. Will play around more with this emulator when have time. Unfortunately, a lot of people now seem to think that Javascript can be used to code large projects such as the provincial system which allows one to access patients reports and lab results from whole province; my comment to them was that it does a great simulation of a paper chart but also emulating a sloth with a fondness for barbiturates turning chart pages made it essentially useless. >At 10:51 PM 12/9/2019, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >No, not necessarily. A web server provides a content header based on > >its own internal configuration. For local files, it is determined > >locally, and so might be different. > > > >Also it is possible that there are some file references in there that > >are not purely relative or that there is another file that is not there. > > One would have to look at the .html and .js files to see. > >The code looks pretty flat; no folders. It didn't even need any >tweaks for file permissions when I uploaded to a web server. The >HTML mentions two .js files fpp.js and vg11.js that aren't present >on his web or in the zip, but it runs without them. It's not trying >to write back to the DSK files, it just keeps an in-memory cache >when it's running. I imagined it was something related to security >in a local browser. > >I tried emailing the author but no response yet. > >http://pdp11.aiju.de/ seems to be a >different, simpler PDP emulator >written in JavaScript. > >- John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Dec 10 15:09:40 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 15:09:40 -0600 Subject: RSTS emulation in a browser References: <008601d5ab7c$fad33de0$f079b9a0$@thewaffleiron.net> <20191205165831.B2AE72740C@mx1.ezwind.net> <20191207212000.45F70273B0@mx1.ezwind.net> <555d2c65-f307-0b24-ab25-1ea4a262f338@charter.net> <20191210175430.C78FD273FE@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20191210211007.068544E6CB@mx2.ezwind.net> At 02:04 PM 12/10/2019, Boris Gimbarzevsky wrote: >Downloaded files for previous PDP-11 emulator but couldn't get it to run. Link to German site at bottom of your post works fine and Unix runs about same speed that it ran on my 11/34 in 1983. Scary that coding a PDP-11 emulator in an incredibly inefficient scripting language such as Javascript matches speed of the machine I was using back then. Google says JavaScript is now only two to seven times slower than C++. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJPdhx5zTaw https://blog.reactiveconf.com/5-reasons-why-javascript-is-eating-the-world-bbc4aca0a527 - John From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 10 16:05:27 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 22:05:27 +0000 Subject: DECpc 425SE In-Reply-To: <74789f9f-f8c6-c617-7f85-e249ba328bdf@ntlworld.com> References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <5297A693-39A0-4FA1-8A99-7DF8E1971A12@comcast.net> <46D80C9A-877B-4972-BB02-D010271B52B1@gmail.com> <74789f9f-f8c6-c617-7f85-e249ba328bdf@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5a624d8c-84ef-ae50-93cb-66d037d2bacc@ntlworld.com> On 07/12/2019 18:10, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > > I'm going to set it to one side for now and get to the same stage with > the Acorn A3000 (which looks OK but the battery really has to come out > now ... it will eventually fail I suppose). > > > I might as well tackle both at the same time ... > I've unsoldered the battery lugs from the PCB and removed the battery that way. The PCB has the +ve side marked (it's the end by R337). Once I mechanically peeled the lugs off the battery I could see the battery is a 3V Panasonic VL1220 rechargeable Lithium Vanadium Pentoxide and they're still available on eBay and Farnell (and probably everywhere else too ...). If I'm going to replace it I'd prefer to do it in a way that leaves it (more) easily removable, so that if I decide that the machine goes back in a box, it can do so without a ticking time-bomb in it! I think I want to find a suitable "IC-socket-style" connector (well, connectors I guess) that I can solder to the PCB and then slot a battery into. I guess it needs to be quite low profile to avoid fouling when it all gets put back together. An alternative might be to use a small push-fit socket for the battery, hide that somewhere convenient in the system (I think there is room by the HDD) and then use flying leads back to the PCB. Any ideas (I'm not sure of what terms to feed a search engine ...) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From trash80 at internode.on.net Tue Dec 10 17:54:21 2019 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 23:54:21 +0000 Subject: FTGH - SORD Keyboard Message-ID: Was going through a box of stuff someone gave me ages ago in keeping with my philosophy of grab first ask questions later. At the bottom found a SORD keyboard (regrettably not the whole thing) - looks like it comes from a M68. Photo: http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/interesting-finds/content/sord-m68-keyboard/ As this is all I have of a SORD (so I am unable to test it) I figure it may be of use to someone else on this list. (Would appreciate coverage of package and postage from Mortlake Victoria Australia 3272 please. Please note that its the size of a keyboard and is a little weighty so you'll need to factor that in. Alternatively I will be in Melbourne in January 2020 if someone more "local" wants it). Thank you. Kevin Parker From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Dec 10 18:08:35 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:08:35 -0800 Subject: FTGH - SORD Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 10, 2019, at 3:54 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > > Was going through a box of stuff someone gave me ages ago in keeping with my philosophy of grab first ask questions later. > > At the bottom found a SORD keyboard (regrettably not the whole thing) - looks like it comes from a M68. Photo: > > http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/interesting-finds/content/sord-m68-keyboard/ > > As this is all I have of a SORD (so I am unable to test it) I figure it may be of use to someone else on this list. > > (Would appreciate coverage of package and postage from Mortlake Victoria Australia 3272 please. Please note that its the size of a keyboard and is a little weighty so you'll need to factor that in. Alternatively I will be in Melbourne in January 2020 if someone more "local" wants it). > > Thank you. > > > Kevin Parker Inquiring minds want to know what the story is with that other photo! Zane From dave at 661.org Tue Dec 10 18:25:58 2019 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 00:25:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Converting C for KCC on TOPS20 Message-ID: I'm trying to convert some C code[1] so it'll compile on TOPS20 with KCC. KCC is mostly ANSI compliant, but it needs to use the TOPS20 linker, which has a limit of six case-insentive characters. Adam Thornton wrote a Perl script[2] that successfully does this for Frotz 2.32. The Frotz codebase has evolved past what was done there and so 2.50 no longer works with Adam's script. So I've been expanding that script into something of my own, which I call "snavig"[3]. It seems to be gradually working more and more, but I fear the problem is starting to rapidly diverge because it still doesn't yield compilable code even on Unix. Does anyone here have any knowledge of existing tools or techniques to do what I'm trying to do? This is part of a project to get Infocom and other Z-machine games running once again on PDP10 mainframes, either real or emulated. First up is to get the bare minimum of a current Z-machine emulator running on TOPS20. Then we can work on screen-handling, a disk pager[4], and porting to other PDP10 operating systems. I'm hoping that this will lead to fun exhibits wherever PDP10s are displayed in museum or faire settings. [1] https://gitlab.com/DavidGriffith/frotz [2] https://github.com/athornton/gnusto-frotz-tops20 [3] Change an objects shape. [4] Infocom's Z-machine emulators paged zcode from disk, but Frotz simply sucks the whole zcode file into memory. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Dec 10 18:48:56 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:48:56 -0700 Subject: Converting C for KCC on TOPS20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: any chance you can post-process the .obj files? Warner On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 5:26 PM David Griffith via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I'm trying to convert some C code[1] so it'll compile on TOPS20 with KCC. > KCC is mostly ANSI compliant, but it needs to use the TOPS20 linker, which > has a limit of six case-insentive characters. Adam Thornton wrote a Perl > script[2] that successfully does this for Frotz 2.32. The Frotz codebase > has evolved past what was done there and so 2.50 no longer works with > Adam's script. So I've been expanding that script into something of my > own, which I call "snavig"[3]. It seems to be gradually working more and > more, but I fear the problem is starting to rapidly diverge because it > still doesn't yield compilable code even on Unix. Does anyone here have > any knowledge of existing tools or techniques to do what I'm trying to do? > > This is part of a project to get Infocom and other Z-machine games running > once again on PDP10 mainframes, either real or emulated. First up is to > get the bare minimum of a current Z-machine emulator running on TOPS20. > Then we can work on screen-handling, a disk pager[4], and porting to other > PDP10 operating systems. I'm hoping that this will lead to fun exhibits > wherever PDP10s are displayed in museum or faire settings. > > > [1] https://gitlab.com/DavidGriffith/frotz > [2] https://github.com/athornton/gnusto-frotz-tops20 > [3] Change an objects shape. > [4] Infocom's Z-machine emulators paged zcode from disk, but Frotz simply > sucks the whole zcode file into memory. > > > -- > David Griffith > dave at 661.org > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From spc at conman.org Tue Dec 10 18:53:00 2019 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 19:53:00 -0500 Subject: Converting C for KCC on TOPS20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191211005300.GD13912@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great David Griffith via cctalk once stated: > > I'm trying to convert some C code[1] so it'll compile on TOPS20 with KCC. > KCC is mostly ANSI compliant, but it needs to use the TOPS20 linker, which > has a limit of six case-insentive characters. Adam Thornton wrote a Perl > script[2] that successfully does this for Frotz 2.32. The Frotz codebase > has evolved past what was done there and so 2.50 no longer works with > Adam's script. So I've been expanding that script into something of my > own, which I call "snavig"[3]. It seems to be gradually working more and > more, but I fear the problem is starting to rapidly diverge because it > still doesn't yield compilable code even on Unix. Does anyone here have > any knowledge of existing tools or techniques to do what I'm trying to do? If you are doing this on Linux, an approach is to compile the code there, then run 'nm' over the object files, and it will output something like: [spc]lucy:~/source/boston/src>nm main.o 000000ef t CgiMethod U CgiNew 00000000 r __PRETTY_FUNCTION__.21 U __assert_fail U crashreport_core U crashreport_with U gd U gf_debug 00000000 T main U main_cgi_get U main_cgi_head U main_cgi_post U main_cli The last column are identifiers; the second column is the type of identifier, and the first column is the value. What you want to look for are types 'T' (externally visible function), 'C' (externally visible constant data) and 'D' (externally visible data). It is these identifiers that will need to be six unique characters long. Something like: [spc]lucy:~/source/boston/src>nm globals.o | grep ' [CDT] ' 00000041 T GlobalsInit 00000004 C c_adtag 00000004 C c_class 00000004 D c_conversion 00000004 C c_days 00000004 C c_tzmin 00000000 D c_updatetype 00000004 C c_webdir 00000008 D cf_emailupdate 00000004 C g_L 00000004 C g_blog 00000004 C g_templates 00000020 D gd 00000d09 T set_c_conversion 00000beb T set_c_updatetype 00000dbd T set_c_url 00000cab T set_cf_emailupdate (but over all object files). I would then generate unique six character long identifiers for each of these, and slap the output into a header file like: #define GlobalsInit id0001 #define c_adtag id0002 #define c_class id0003 #define c_conversion id0004 and then include this file for every compilation unit. I think that would be the easiest thing to do. -spc From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Dec 10 18:54:49 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:54:49 -0700 Subject: Converting C for KCC on TOPS20 In-Reply-To: <20191211005300.GD13912@brevard.conman.org> References: <20191211005300.GD13912@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 5:53 PM Sean Conner via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > It was thus said that the Great David Griffith via cctalk once stated: > > > > I'm trying to convert some C code[1] so it'll compile on TOPS20 with > KCC. > > KCC is mostly ANSI compliant, but it needs to use the TOPS20 linker, > which > > has a limit of six case-insentive characters. Adam Thornton wrote a > Perl > > script[2] that successfully does this for Frotz 2.32. The Frotz > codebase > > has evolved past what was done there and so 2.50 no longer works with > > Adam's script. So I've been expanding that script into something of my > > own, which I call "snavig"[3]. It seems to be gradually working more > and > > more, but I fear the problem is starting to rapidly diverge because it > > still doesn't yield compilable code even on Unix. Does anyone here have > > any knowledge of existing tools or techniques to do what I'm trying to > do? > > If you are doing this on Linux, an approach is to compile the code there, > then run 'nm' over the object files, and it will output something like: > > [spc]lucy:~/source/boston/src>nm main.o > 000000ef t CgiMethod > U CgiNew > 00000000 r __PRETTY_FUNCTION__.21 > U __assert_fail > U crashreport_core > U crashreport_with > U gd > U gf_debug > 00000000 T main > U main_cgi_get > U main_cgi_head > U main_cgi_post > U main_cli > > The last column are identifiers; the second column is the type of > identifier, and the first column is the value. What you want to look for > are types 'T' (externally visible function), 'C' (externally visible > constant data) and 'D' (externally visible data). It is these identifiers > that will need to be six unique characters long. > > Something like: > > [spc]lucy:~/source/boston/src>nm globals.o | grep ' [CDT] ' > 00000041 T GlobalsInit > 00000004 C c_adtag > 00000004 C c_class > 00000004 D c_conversion > 00000004 C c_days > 00000004 C c_tzmin > 00000000 D c_updatetype > 00000004 C c_webdir > 00000008 D cf_emailupdate > 00000004 C g_L > 00000004 C g_blog > 00000004 C g_templates > 00000020 D gd > 00000d09 T set_c_conversion > 00000beb T set_c_updatetype > 00000dbd T set_c_url > 00000cab T set_cf_emailupdate > > (but over all object files). I would then generate unique six character > long identifiers for each of these, and slap the output into a header file > like: > > #define GlobalsInit id0001 > #define c_adtag id0002 > #define c_class id0003 > #define c_conversion id0004 > > and then include this file for every compilation unit. I think that would > be the easiest thing to do. > You'd need to exclude libc symbols, though. In a.out times you could just change the names from old to new and adjust the string table offset to do this :) Warner From rtomek at ceti.pl Wed Dec 11 10:58:56 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 17:58:56 +0100 Subject: ZedRipper Message-ID: <20191211165856.GA9514@tau1.ceti.pl> Hello, Surfaced on Ycombinator. This one looks good. Something old, something new, etc. Like my kind of project :-) :: ZedRipper: A 16-core Z80 laptop http://www.chrisfenton.com/the-zedripper-part-1/ and some comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21756243 -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Wed Dec 11 11:07:23 2019 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 09:07:23 -0800 Subject: Converting C for KCC on TOPS20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1576084043.13130.42.camel@moondog> On Wed, 2019-12-11 at 00:25 +0000, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > I'm trying to convert some C code[1] so it'll compile on TOPS20 with KCC. > KCC is mostly ANSI compliant, but it needs to use the TOPS20 linker, which > has a limit of six case-insentive characters. [...] Does anyone here have > any knowledge of existing tools or techniques to do what I'm trying to do? Is "objcopy --redefine-syms" any help? Compile the code as-is to produce object files, use nm or objdump to find all of the global symbols, generate unique six-character names for them, and then use objcopy to create new object files with the new names. Or have I completely missed the point? I'm not familiar with KCC, does it produce object modules in a format objcopy doesn't support? I know someone who was working on gcc support for the PDP-10, I wonder if he's still doing that or has given up.... From phil at ultimate.com Wed Dec 11 13:37:11 2019 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 14:37:11 -0500 Subject: Converting C for KCC on TOPS20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201912111937.xBBJbBbR054977@ultimate.com> > KCC is mostly ANSI compliant, but it needs to use the TOPS20 linker, which > has a limit of six case-insentive characters. LINK has support for long (up to 72 character) symbols, and it appears FORTRAN v11 can generate them, but the MACRO assembler may never have gotten support; http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/bb-r775d-bm_tops20_ks_upd_4/01/sources/lnknew.mac.html SUBTTL BLOCK TYPE 1002 - LONG SYMBOL ENTRY ; ---------------- ; ! 1002 ! COUNT ! ; ---------------- ; ! SYMBOL ! ; ---------------- ; ! MORE SYMBOL ! ; ---------------- in lnkpar.mac: ND MAXSYM,^D72 ;[2210] Max number of characters in a symbol ND SYMSIZ,</6> ;[2210] Number of words of storage for long symbols From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 11 13:42:26 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 11:42:26 -0800 Subject: Converting C for KCC on TOPS20 In-Reply-To: <1576084043.13130.42.camel@moondog> References: <1576084043.13130.42.camel@moondog> Message-ID: I think the challenge will be does binutils (where nm, objcopy and objdump live) support for the object file format used by TOPS20. I haven?t looked at the TOPS20 object file format but it seems like the best approach would be to have the C compiler generate symbols as it normally would and write a utility to ?fixup? the too long symbols rather than munging the source (which is basically what you?re proposing using the stuff from binutils?just a bit more work. TTFN - Guy > On Dec 11, 2019, at 9:07 AM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 2019-12-11 at 00:25 +0000, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >> I'm trying to convert some C code[1] so it'll compile on TOPS20 with KCC. >> KCC is mostly ANSI compliant, but it needs to use the TOPS20 linker, which >> has a limit of six case-insentive characters. [...] Does anyone here have >> any knowledge of existing tools or techniques to do what I'm trying to do? > > Is "objcopy --redefine-syms" any help? Compile the code as-is to > produce object files, use nm or objdump to find all of the global > symbols, generate unique six-character names for them, and then use > objcopy to create new object files with the new names. > > Or have I completely missed the point? I'm not familiar with KCC, does > it produce object modules in a format objcopy doesn't support? > > I know someone who was working on gcc support for the PDP-10, I wonder > if he's still doing that or has given up.... > From technoid6502 at gmail.com Wed Dec 11 15:48:39 2019 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 16:48:39 -0500 Subject: Canon MDD210 Message-ID: <79d4ce2ad0fc3916dc5f2899bb20033eacd50f51.camel@gmail.com> I've got a thoroughly tested and working Canon Mdd210 5.25" floppy mechanism here. I don't need such a special mech, any 360k drive would do. If you want this particular mechanism for some reason, just let me know and we can arrange a trade for a more ordinary one. Best, Jeff From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Dec 12 14:40:35 2019 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 15:40:35 -0500 Subject: WANTED: Cromemco EXC extender board... References: <0aa401d5b12c$686dc780$39495680$.ref@verizon.net> Message-ID: <0aa401d5b12c$686dc780$39495680$@verizon.net> Hi All, I would like to buy, but I will borrow/rent if I have to for VCF East 2020. I'm looking for ONLY the Cromemco EXC, no others. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Dec 12 15:26:04 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 16:26:04 -0500 Subject: WANTED: Cromemco EXC extender board... In-Reply-To: <0aa401d5b12c$686dc780$39495680$@verizon.net> References: <0aa401d5b12c$686dc780$39495680$.ref@verizon.net> <0aa401d5b12c$686dc780$39495680$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5804caa1-b82e-6d79-7f41-13fa54ffcc2c@alembic.crystel.com> Was that for the Vic-20 with three sockets and switches? I might have it somewhere. On 12/12/2019 3:40 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > Hi All, > > > > I would like to buy, but I will borrow/rent if I have to for VCF East 2020. > I'm looking for ONLY the Cromemco EXC, no others. > > > > Thanks, > > Bill Sudbrink > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Dec 12 15:30:41 2019 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 16:30:41 -0500 Subject: WANTED: Cromemco EXC extender board... In-Reply-To: <5804caa1-b82e-6d79-7f41-13fa54ffcc2c@alembic.crystel.com> References: <0aa401d5b12c$686dc780$39495680$.ref@verizon.net> <0aa401d5b12c$686dc780$39495680$@verizon.net> <5804caa1-b82e-6d79-7f41-13fa54ffcc2c@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <0aae01d5b133$68380d50$38a827f0$@verizon.net> Um, sorry, no. It is an S-100 bus extender card. Found on the back cover of this catalog: https://archive.org/details/CromemcoCatalogAugust1976/page/n7 Thanks, Bill -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Zach via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 4:26 PM To: William Sudbrink via cctalk Subject: Re: WANTED: Cromemco EXC extender board... Was that for the Vic-20 with three sockets and switches? I might have it somewhere. On 12/12/2019 3:40 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > Hi All, > > > > I would like to buy, but I will borrow/rent if I have to for VCF East 2020. > I'm looking for ONLY the Cromemco EXC, no others. > > > > Thanks, > > Bill Sudbrink > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Dec 13 11:26:44 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 17:26:44 -0000 Subject: FS: System/36 Kansas City Message-ID: <055c01d5b1da$7db04ab0$7910e010$@gmail.com> In case any one is interested.. https://www.facebook.com/groups/retrocomputers/permalink/3042809669082227/ Dave Wade G4UGM & EA7KAE From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Dec 13 11:55:00 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 09:55:00 -0800 Subject: SMD disk specifications Message-ID: <100D8743-8618-45C2-A8A1-5C0DD8279270@shiresoft.com> Hi, I?ve been trying to find *detailed* specifications (mainly detailed signal timings) for the SMD disk interface but all I?ve found so far are the interface specifications for individual disks (CDC, Fujitsu, etc). I?ve looked in the usual places (bitsavers mostly) and haven?t found the spec itself. If anyone has any pointers, I?d appreciate it. Thanks. TTFN - Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 13 12:11:08 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 10:11:08 -0800 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: <100D8743-8618-45C2-A8A1-5C0DD8279270@shiresoft.com> References: <100D8743-8618-45C2-A8A1-5C0DD8279270@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <48b30a62-43e9-a4be-6da3-f6f2759734eb@bitsavers.org> ANSI has a spec, X3.91M_1987 I don't know if it covers the SMD-E , etc. On 12/13/19 9:55 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > I?ve been trying to find *detailed* specifications (mainly detailed signal timings) for the SMD disk interface but all I?ve found so far are the interface specifications for individual disks (CDC, Fujitsu, etc). I?ve looked in the usual places (bitsavers mostly) and haven?t found the spec itself. If anyone has any pointers, I?d appreciate it. > > Thanks. > > TTFN - Guy > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri Dec 13 12:12:23 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 10:12:23 -0800 Subject: Tapestar for DOS Message-ID: <002f01d5b1e0$de870940$9b951bc0$@net> Hello, Can anyone please point me towards a copy of the Tapestar utility package for DOS? I have already contacted Qualstar and they cannot help. TIA! -Ali From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Dec 13 12:15:44 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 10:15:44 -0800 Subject: FS: System/36 Kansas City In-Reply-To: <055c01d5b1da$7db04ab0$7910e010$@gmail.com> References: <055c01d5b1da$7db04ab0$7910e010$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02a587dd-9148-6092-6b6b-edb97fb7e969@jwsss.com> I'm in contact with the owner, arranging to pick it up.? If anyone on the list is interested, let me know. This is a "must go asap" issue for the system involved. I'm not going to ask anything if anyone needs the system, just let me know. I've got a warehouse in KC near this location where we're going to move it to. I'll update if we get it tomorrow or the next day. thanks Jim On 12/13/2019 9:26 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > In case any one is interested.. > > > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/retrocomputers/permalink/3042809669082227/ > > > > Dave Wade > > G4UGM & EA7KAE > > > > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Fri Dec 13 12:40:17 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:40:17 -0500 Subject: FS: System/36 Kansas City In-Reply-To: <02a587dd-9148-6092-6b6b-edb97fb7e969@jwsss.com> References: <055c01d5b1da$7db04ab0$7910e010$@gmail.com> <02a587dd-9148-6092-6b6b-edb97fb7e969@jwsss.com> Message-ID: A saint's work is never done! I wouldn't know what to do with it but glad it's not being scrapped. On Fri, Dec 13, 2019, 1:15 PM jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > I'm in contact with the owner, arranging to pick it up. If anyone on > the list is interested, let me know. > > This is a "must go asap" issue for the system involved. I'm not going to > ask anything if anyone needs the system, just let me know. I've got a > warehouse in KC near this location where we're going to move it to. > > I'll update if we get it tomorrow or the next day. > > thanks > Jim > > On 12/13/2019 9:26 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > In case any one is interested.. > > > > > > > > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/retrocomputers/permalink/3042809669082227/ > > > > > > > > Dave Wade > > > > G4UGM & EA7KAE > > > > > > > > > > From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com Fri Dec 13 13:10:53 2019 From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:10:53 -0600 Subject: System/36 Kansas City In-Reply-To: <055c01d5b1da$7db04ab0$7910e010$@gmail.com> References: <055c01d5b1da$7db04ab0$7910e010$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Man, that its one nice system. If I didn?t already have a S/36, I would be driving down there as we speak. Maybe one of these days I will get my hands on a 9 track for the S/36 like the one in the images. Oh well, good luck to whoever ends up getting the system! On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 11:26 AM Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > In case any one is interested.. > > > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/retrocomputers/permalink/3042809669082227/ > > > > Dave Wade > > G4UGM & EA7KAE > > > > From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 13 13:35:47 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 12:35:47 -0700 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: <48b30a62-43e9-a4be-6da3-f6f2759734eb@bitsavers.org> References: <100D8743-8618-45C2-A8A1-5C0DD8279270@shiresoft.com> <48b30a62-43e9-a4be-6da3-f6f2759734eb@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 11:10 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > ANSI has a spec, X3.91M_1987 I don't know if it covers the SMD-E , etc. > X3.91M-1987 section 6 covers "Interface Extensions", which includes adding tag 4, 5, and 6, dual-port provisions, spinup sequencing, index mark and sector mark signals, fixed-head addressing, service voltages on round radial cable, and extended cylinder addressing. I think some of that came in with SMD-E, but I'm not 100% certain. X3.91M-1987 describes data rates of up to 24 Mbps, which came from SMD-E. SMD-E is apparently defined by CDC document 64712402, which I've never been able to obtain. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 13 13:42:20 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 12:42:20 -0700 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: <100D8743-8618-45C2-A8A1-5C0DD8279270@shiresoft.com> References: <100D8743-8618-45C2-A8A1-5C0DD8279270@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 10:55 AM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I?ve been trying to find *detailed* specifications (mainly detailed signal > timings) for the SMD disk interface but all I?ve found so far are the > interface specifications for individual disks (CDC, Fujitsu, etc). I?ve > looked in the usual places (bitsavers mostly) and haven?t found the spec > itself. If anyone has any pointers, I?d appreciate it. > You've seen that the SMD spec (as of March 1981) is on Bitsavers? pdf/cdc/discs/interface_specs/64712400_SMDCableSpec_Mar81.pdf That doesn't cover later enhancements such as SMD-E. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 13 14:09:21 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 12:09:21 -0800 Subject: 8 inch floppies Message-ID: anyone know what system these floppies are for? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-33-8-034-Floppy-Disks-/184071352445 From david at kdbarto.org Fri Dec 13 14:52:19 2019 From: david at kdbarto.org (David Barto) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 12:52:19 -0800 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Those would have fit a Terak system for UCSD Pascal. I?ve still got a few stuffed in a closet. David > On Dec 13, 2019, at 12:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > anyone know what system these floppies are for? > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-33-8-034-Floppy-Disks-/184071352445 > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 13 15:11:28 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:11:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, David Barto via cctalk wrote: > Those would have fit a Terak system for UCSD Pascal. I?ve still got a few stuffed in a closet. > David >> On Dec 13, 2019, at 12:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> anyone know what system these floppies are for? >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-33-8-034-Floppy-Disks-/184071352445 Some are labeled "MRX", "CP/M", "Isis", "Chip-?","PROM?", I do not see any that are labeled "Terak", "UCSD", or "Pascal" At least some of them say, "single-sided, soft-sectored double density", some say "double sided", so they would physically work in a lot of stuff if reformatted. But imaging is important, as they MIGHT have something significant on them. "Bubble memory files"? They sold for $59 to somebody with 8000 feedbacks. From dmabry at mich.com Fri Dec 13 16:17:58 2019 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 17:17:58 -0500 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote on 12/13/2019 4:11 PM: > On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, David Barto via cctalk wrote: >> Those would have fit a Terak system for UCSD Pascal. I?ve still got a >> few stuffed in a closet. >> ????David >>> On Dec 13, 2019, at 12:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> anyone know what system these floppies are for? >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-33-8-034-Floppy-Disks-/184071352445 > > Some are labeled "MRX", "CP/M", "Isis", "Chip-?","PROM?", I do not see > any that are labeled "Terak", "UCSD", or "Pascal" > > At least some of them say, "single-sided, soft-sectored double > density", some say "double sided", so they would physically work in a > lot of stuff if reformatted.? But imaging is important, as they MIGHT > have something significant on them.?? "Bubble memory files"? > > They sold for $59 to somebody with 8000 feedbacks. > > > There are three that appear to be Intel MDS diskettes.? The ones marked ISIS V4.3 is, as I remember, the last version of ISIS-II that Intel released.? ASM51 and RL51 appear to be assembler and relocater for the 8051 series of microcontroller.? And ICE51 was the in-circuit emulator software for the 8051 series as well.? None of the other labels mean anything to me, but those three are likely for the Intel Development System.? Those systems could have single-sided, single-density FM drives, and/or single-sided double-density M2FM. The Intel MDS could, of course, run CP/M-80.? So many of those other diskettes could have CP/M software/files and still be used on the Intel MDS. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 13 16:35:52 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 14:35:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> References: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> Message-ID: >>>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-33-8-034-Floppy-Disks-/184071352445 >> Some are labeled "MRX", "CP/M", "Isis", "Chip-?","PROM?", I do not >> see any that are labeled "Terak", "UCSD", or "Pascal" >> At least some of them say, "single-sided, soft-sectored double >> density", some say "double sided", so they would physically work in On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, Dave Mabry wrote: > There are three that appear to be Intel MDS diskettes.?? The ones > marked ISIS V4.3 is, as I remember, the last version of ISIS-II that > Intel released.?? ASM51 and RL51 appear to be assembler and relocater > for the 8051 series of microcontroller.?? And ICE51 was the in-circuit > emulator software for the 8051 series as well.?? None of the other > labels mean anything to me, but those three are likely for the Intel > Development System.?? Those systems could have single-sided, > single-density FM drives, and/or single-sided double-density M2FM. > > The Intel MDS could, of course, run CP/M-80.?? So many of those other > diskettes could have CP/M software/files and still be used on the > Intel MDS. Some are labeled double sided. Unless the user punched additional jacket holes (many of us did), the double sided disks would not have been usable in a single sided drive. (Unlike 5.25" disks, 8" disks had index hole in different location) I never had one, but I have heard that there were drives with two sets of index sensors that could use both. So, they might be from more than one system. Unless Dave Barto has some insider information about this group of disks, I don't see anything to support the contention that they are Terak UCSD Pascal. Although, if reformatted, they certainly could be usable. The content? It certainly is not inconsistent with system(s) being used in some hardware development. Since none of them are commercial release disks, they may contain personal content or personal unreleased projects, raising some issues of the ethics of releasing the content publicly. (ethics, not legality, for trade secret information that was acquired accidentally) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 13 16:44:56 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 14:44:56 -0800 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> References: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> Message-ID: <888532a2-142b-70d7-2d54-e9fe6eb66b63@sydex.com> On 12/13/19 2:17 PM, Dave Mabry via cctalk wrote: > There are three that appear to be Intel MDS diskettes.? The ones marked > ISIS V4.3 is, as I remember, the last version of ISIS-II that Intel > released.? ASM51 and RL51 appear to be assembler and relocater for the > 8051 series of microcontroller.? And ICE51 was the in-circuit emulator > software for the 8051 series as well.? None of the other labels mean > anything to me, but those three are likely for the Intel Development > System.? Those systems could have single-sided, single-density FM > drives, and/or single-sided double-density M2FM. > > The Intel MDS could, of course, run CP/M-80.? So many of those other > diskettes could have CP/M software/files and still be used on the Intel > MDS. MDS was my guess also. The MDS boxes ran the standard CP/M distro from DRI--no customization needed. (The same was true for MP/M--a second console was provided via the current-loop interface). At any rate, it all fits. I wouldn't be surprised if all the floppies were SS FM ones. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 13 16:54:00 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 14:54:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: <888532a2-142b-70d7-2d54-e9fe6eb66b63@sydex.com> References: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> <888532a2-142b-70d7-2d54-e9fe6eb66b63@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > MDS was my guess also. The MDS boxes ran the standard CP/M distro from > DRI--no customization needed. (The same was true for MP/M--a second > console was provided via the current-loop interface). > > At any rate, it all fits. I wouldn't be surprised if all the floppies > were SS FM ones. The 2 sided ones could be a different system, or the user added a drive that could use them (or modified a drive - they look like they were used in hardware development), or he had a hole punch (a glimpse of one of those outisde of its sleeve would confirm) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 13 18:10:03 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 16:10:03 -0800 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> <888532a2-142b-70d7-2d54-e9fe6eb66b63@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/13/19 2:54 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> MDS was my guess also.?? The MDS boxes ran the standard CP/M distro from >> DRI--no customization needed. (The same was true for MP/M--a second >> console was provided via the current-loop interface). >> >> At any rate, it all fits.?? I wouldn't be surprised if all the floppies >> were SS FM ones. > > The 2 sided ones could be a different system, or the user added a drive > that could use them (or modified a drive - they look like they were used > in hardware development), or he had a hole punch (a glimpse of one of > those outisde of its sleeve would confirm) Some could also be "flippies". Those were made by several manufacturers. --Chuck From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Dec 13 18:15:36 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 16:15:36 -0800 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> Message-ID: <009FD00E-EAA6-45FF-B8A0-0EE4C21F9841@avanthar.com> > On Dec 13, 2019, at 2:35 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Unless Dave Barto has some insider information about this group of disks, I don't see anything to support the contention that they are Terak UCSD Pascal. Although, if reformatted, they certainly could be usable. My guess is that he doesn?t know anything about Al, so misunderstood the question, and answered it based on what he thought was being asked. I agree with the MDS belief that seems common in this thread. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 13 18:41:21 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 16:41:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> <888532a2-142b-70d7-2d54-e9fe6eb66b63@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Some could also be "flippies". Those were made by several manufacturers. . . . and almost 40 years ago, for my first marketed product, I made and marketed plexiglass pocket shaped jigs for marking diskettes for punching them. Several models, a 5.25 into Flippy, and an 8" into SS/Flippy and DS. One some, I also had a jig for putting on hub-rings. In the FIRST and LAST picture, at the lower left, the bottom three diskettes are a Memorex "1S" single sided single density, and two Memorex "2D" double sided double density. About half are the Memorex "2D", a handful of the Memorex "1S", a handful of Nashua 2D, a scotch 1D, . . . I'm pretty sure that those are NOT Memorex "flippies". But, the previous owner could have had one of my jigs or a competing one, or could have had more than one drive or more than one system, or a drive that did both. But the variant types don't invalidate your hypothesis of what system, any more than finding a few extraneous Macintosh diskettes in the box for your Windows disks. I assume that you are right, but there are some others thrown in. ("How the hell did those get mixed together?") From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 13 19:01:31 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 17:01:31 -0800 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> <888532a2-142b-70d7-2d54-e9fe6eb66b63@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7b2ea50e-77e1-08d6-adf2-fc472fe5bf08@sydex.com> On 12/13/19 4:41 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > But the variant types don't invalidate your hypothesis of what system, > any more than finding a few extraneous Macintosh diskettes in the box > for your Windows disks.? I assume that you are right, but there are some > others thrown in. > ("How the hell did those get mixed together?") I wasn't looking very closely, just spitballing. Without the physical media, that's really all that anyone can do. A couple of years ago, a customer sent me a batch hard-sector 8" disks to process. Try as I might, I couldn't get the start of sector data to match up with the sector holes. It was then that I realized that the customer simply purchased HS disks to use on his soft-sector setup. Some 8" drives allowed for jumpering to bring out the Index and Sector signals separately. Ignore the sector signal and you've got a soft-sector disk. Stuff happens. --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Dec 13 19:06:52 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 01:06:52 +0000 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/13/19 3:52 PM, David Barto via cctalk wrote: > Those would have fit a Terak system for UCSD Pascal. I?ve still got a few stuffed in a closet. > David > >> On Dec 13, 2019, at 12:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> anyone know what system these floppies are for? >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-33-8-034-Floppy-Disks-/184071352445 >> >> > They would fit a lot of systems. Need a much closer view of the labels to try and determine what they actually go] to. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Dec 13 19:11:50 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 01:11:50 +0000 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> <888532a2-142b-70d7-2d54-e9fe6eb66b63@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/13/19 7:10 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/13/19 2:54 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> MDS was my guess also.?? The MDS boxes ran the standard CP/M distro from >>> DRI--no customization needed. (The same was true for MP/M--a second >>> console was provided via the current-loop interface). >>> >>> At any rate, it all fits.?? I wouldn't be surprised if all the floppies >>> were SS FM ones. >> >> The 2 sided ones could be a different system, or the user added a drive >> that could use them (or modified a drive - they look like they were used >> in hardware development), or he had a hole punch (a glimpse of one of >> those outisde of its sleeve would confirm) > > Some could also be "flippies". Those were made by several manufacturers. > > --Chuck > I never saw any flippies commercially made but many companies made punches for flippy 5.25" disks. I always had to make my own for 8". bill From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 13 19:22:35 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 17:22:35 -0800 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> <888532a2-142b-70d7-2d54-e9fe6eb66b63@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/13/19 5:11 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > I never saw any flippies commercially made but many > companies made punches for flippy 5.25" disks. I always > had to make my own for 8". > They were standard products. Let's see if I can find a period ad... Well, not an ad, but a precise description: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/3M/3M_Diskette_Reference_Manual_May83.pdf Page 8, top illustration. 3M added an "R" to the stock number for "reversible". I have a few in my stash. --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Dec 13 20:06:52 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 02:06:52 +0000 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> <888532a2-142b-70d7-2d54-e9fe6eb66b63@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/13/19 8:22 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/13/19 5:11 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> I never saw any flippies commercially made but many >> companies made punches for flippy 5.25" disks. I always >> had to make my own for 8". >> > > They were standard products. Let's see if I can find a period ad... > > Well, not an ad, but a precise description: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/3M/3M_Diskette_Reference_Manual_May83.pdf > > Page 8, top illustration. 3M added an "R" to the stock number for > "reversible". I have a few in my stash. Must have been targeted at the home market as I don't remember ever seeing them in any of the supplies catalogs I dealt with. And there were numerous white papers talking about why it was a really bad idea to spin floppies in both directions. bill From nw.johnson at ieee.org Fri Dec 13 20:11:23 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 21:11:23 -0500 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> <888532a2-142b-70d7-2d54-e9fe6eb66b63@sydex.com> Message-ID: Oh the things companies did to try and increase their profits! Bad idea indeed, reversible just meant half the profit for the suppliers! On the same vein, we ordered a TWX line form Bell but supplied our own machine. Bell said they were not responsible if the line caused errors, and sent a man out with a bit error rate tester - all for 110 baud! I remember when we sold DSD440 floppies, and the DEC salesmen were going around saying that it could not format floppies when their RX02 could - although the only thing that the RX02 could do was change the density bit from single to double! cheers, Nigel On 13/12/2019 21:06, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 12/13/19 8:22 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/13/19 5:11 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I never saw any flippies commercially made but many >>> companies made punches for flippy 5.25" disks. I always >>> had to make my own for 8". >>> >> They were standard products. Let's see if I can find a period ad... >> >> Well, not an ad, but a precise description: >> >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/3M/3M_Diskette_Reference_Manual_May83.pdf >> >> Page 8, top illustration. 3M added an "R" to the stock number for >> "reversible". I have a few in my stash. > Must have been targeted at the home market as I don't > remember ever seeing them in any of the supplies catalogs > I dealt with. And there were numerous white papers > talking about why it was a really bad idea to spin > floppies in both directions. > > bill > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 13 20:42:30 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 18:42:30 -0800 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> <888532a2-142b-70d7-2d54-e9fe6eb66b63@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9a4581aa-09b8-bd9d-2844-499c2152d9e7@sydex.com> Believe it or not, the "flippy" was actually patented in 1974. US3932895A ...and let's not forget the 3" CF2 diskettes--designed to be flippies right fron the get-go. BASF certainly marketed 5.25" flippies: https://cdn.instructables.com/FWP/3D0Z/GXL5XZ3U/FWP3D0ZGXL5XZ3U.LARGE.jpg --Chuck From mosst at SDF.ORG Fri Dec 13 20:45:03 2019 From: mosst at SDF.ORG (Thomas Moss) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 02:45:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: WANTED: DEC TU56 DECtape drive Message-ID: Hi All, Probably a long-shot, but I'm looking for a DECtape drive for my PDP-8/e. Either to buy or to trade with something. (PDP-8/11 parts, 11/34, Intel MDS, ASR-33?) I'm in South-West England but also have an address near LA. Can travel to pick-up. Regards, -Tom mosst at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Dec 13 22:12:25 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 20:12:25 -0800 Subject: FS: System/36 Kansas City In-Reply-To: <02a587dd-9148-6092-6b6b-edb97fb7e969@jwsss.com> References: <055c01d5b1da$7db04ab0$7910e010$@gmail.com> <02a587dd-9148-6092-6b6b-edb97fb7e969@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <6685b151-1a3e-2ef4-9038-cfbfafa73dad@jwsss.com> On 12/13/2019 10:15 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > I'm in contact with the owner, arranging to pick it up.? If anyone on > the list is interested, let me know. > > This is a "must go asap" issue for the system involved. I'm not going > to ask anything if anyone needs the system, just let me know. I've got > a warehouse in KC near this location where we're going to move it to. > > I'll update if we get it tomorrow or the next day. > > thanks > Jim > Update on Friday Evening:? A collector (don't know who) is picking the unit up in a timely and capable manner.? I'm still the person of last resort, but I really didn't want to put any money into this system.? Turns out that my friend in? KC who could pick it up doesn't have the flat bed trailer that he thought he would, so I'll have to rent a lift gate truck to move it. I will do that,? as I'm still the "picker-upper" of last resort, so I'll spend if I have to rather than let it be destroyed. I have two people from the list who have spoken up, and I'm trying to keep my expenses to a minimum if anyone wants it. thanks Jim > On 12/13/2019 9:26 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> In case any one is interested.. >> >> >> https://www.facebook.com/groups/retrocomputers/permalink/3042809669082227/ >> >> >> >> Dave Wade >> >> G4UGM & EA7KAE >> >> >> > > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Dec 13 23:11:43 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 23:11:43 -0600 Subject: RSTS emulation in a browser (now "FILMGR") In-Reply-To: <20191210211007.068544E6CB@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <008601d5ab7c$fad33de0$f079b9a0$@thewaffleiron.net> <20191205165831.B2AE72740C@mx1.ezwind.net> <20191207212000.45F70273B0@mx1.ezwind.net> <555d2c65-f307-0b24-ab25-1ea4a262f338@charter.net> <20191210175430.C78FD273FE@mx1.ezwind.net> <20191210211007.068544E6CB@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20191214051446.A87FB273F4@mx1.ezwind.net> Another RSTS question. One of my rescued tapes has only several files with the extension ".FLB" Compared to other files of the sets, these are relatively large... up to a meg or so. In a text file on another related tape, a manager wrote "Learn how to use FILMGR, which is invoked by DO FILMGR. It keeps storage space down." Sounds like archiving and compression. Google is no help. I looked at DECUS RSTS lists and didn't see it. Does anyone remember a program called FILMGR for RSTS/e 7 circa 1982? Does "FLB" mean "file library"? - John From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Dec 12 22:23:12 2019 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Abraham) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 20:23:12 -0800 Subject: Large List of Commodore 64 Games and Software from Sellam's Collection Message-ID: Winter is upon us. Time to snuggle up in front of your Commodore 64 with some old timey games and applications, and I've got plenty of them to keep you busy throughout the holidays. The complete list is too long to reproduce here, so please go to the following link, which will take you directly to the Commodore 64 Software section of my Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit?pli=1&fbclid=IwAR29aeaPInesPowqSLeq_ElmtOwSThjfRAJyW9T_oN6mnjPPt4wO1CchMGQ#gid=878436906&range=A72 The disks are untested. I can test upon demand but then the price will go up for my time involved. Otherwise they are sold as is. They were all stored under proper conditions, with many of the packages having been stored in ziplock bags. Some of the manuals have highlighting in them from the previous owner but otherwise most everything is in very good to excellent condition, as indicated for each listing. Photographs accompany each listing (the link under the Additional Information column). Rather than attempt to price these individually, I'll simply take offers on one, some, many, or all of these titles. Preference and priority will go to the larger orders. Please direct any questions to me directly via e-mail. Thanks! Sellam From peraza at newsguy.com Fri Dec 13 05:14:27 2019 From: peraza at newsguy.com (Hector Peraza) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 12:14:27 +0100 Subject: P112 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09a3cf12-f4db-c064-17f2-61eae74e37a2@newsguy.com> On 12/2/19 6:10 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > It starts out with no partitions and claims the partition table > is not a valid P112 table. The "w" command fixes that but the > table is still empty. Interestingly enough, a 64M CF in an IDE > adapter works with FDISK. but then when I try to "INIT" it under > RSX180 it prints a stream of garbage on the screen and does nothing > to the disk/CF. You found a bug in the INIt program: it was supposed to output an error message saying that the partition is bigger than 32M and then exit, but some reason the address of the message went to the wrong register pair, and I never tested for that case. I've uploaded a fix, as well as new floppy images. Note also that FDISK is a rather old program, and as such will not work properly with modern drives larger than 256Mb, and it doesn't do LBA either (time to write a new version?). Hector. From shadoooo at gmail.com Sat Dec 14 03:10:35 2019 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 10:10:35 +0100 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I also was searching about a clear SMD specification years ago, I found something in disk documentation from CDC, but doubts remain, because some disks call the interface SMD, some other CMD, never understood the difference... Andrea From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Dec 14 03:47:46 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 01:47:46 -0800 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67b0baec-b500-89c2-636d-fad7d9622a95@jwsss.com> On 12/14/2019 1:10 AM, shadoooo via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > I also was searching about a clear SMD specification years ago, I found > something in disk documentation from CDC, but doubts remain, because some > disks call the interface SMD, some other CMD, never understood the > difference... CMD was the name of the division that manufactured the disks, FWIW. Not heard of CDC calling it anything other than SMD.? It was their golden goose, so though it's not really a spec, reading the specs of any CDC drive of an equivalent capability as you are looking for is probably what any standard would contain. The big problem they faced was there wasn't a second act for them, despite spending huge amounts on a lot of other products.? They continued using oddball interfaces to try to pull the same stunt and people didn't fall for it twice. The closesest that anyone came to challenging them was the Trident interface, but they crashed and burned anyway. When did you see something called CMD? thanks Jim > Andrea > > From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Dec 14 04:18:27 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 11:18:27 +0100 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: <67b0baec-b500-89c2-636d-fad7d9622a95@jwsss.com> References: <67b0baec-b500-89c2-636d-fad7d9622a95@jwsss.com> Message-ID: l?rdag 14 december 2019 skrev jim stephens via cctalk : > > > On 12/14/2019 1:10 AM, shadoooo via cctalk wrote: > >> Hello, >> I also was searching about a clear SMD specification years ago, I found >> something in disk documentation from CDC, but doubts remain, because some >> disks call the interface SMD, some other CMD, never understood the >> difference... >> > CMD was the name of the division that manufactured the disks, FWIW. Not > heard of CDC calling it anything other than SMD. It was their golden > goose, so though it's not really a spec, reading the specs of any CDC drive > of an equivalent capability as you are looking for is probably what any > standard would contain. I think the name of the division was MPI. CMD was the Cartridge Module Drive aka Phoenix. http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/cdc/discs/CDC_Drive_Models.txt But as far as I know the interface of the SMD drives and CMD drives were identical. At least the Norsk Data ND10 used them both on the same interface in the computer end. /Mattis > The big problem they faced was there wasn't a second act for them, despite > spending huge amounts on a lot of other products. They continued using > oddball interfaces to try to pull the same stunt and people didn't fall for > it twice. > > The closesest that anyone came to challenging them was the Trident > interface, but they crashed and burned anyway. > > When did you see something called CMD? > thanks > Jim > >> Andrea >> >> >> > From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Dec 14 10:50:23 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 08:50:23 -0800 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: References: <100D8743-8618-45C2-A8A1-5C0DD8279270@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Thanks Eric, I somehow missed that one. TTFN - Guy > On Dec 13, 2019, at 11:42 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 10:55 AM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk > wrote: > I?ve been trying to find *detailed* specifications (mainly detailed signal timings) for the SMD disk interface but all I?ve found so far are the interface specifications for individual disks (CDC, Fujitsu, etc). I?ve looked in the usual places (bitsavers mostly) and haven?t found the spec itself. If anyone has any pointers, I?d appreciate it. > > You've seen that the SMD spec (as of March 1981) is on Bitsavers? > pdf/cdc/discs/interface_specs/64712400_SMDCableSpec_Mar81.pdf > > That doesn't cover later enhancements such as SMD-E. > From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 00:58:44 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 23:58:44 -0700 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: <67b0baec-b500-89c2-636d-fad7d9622a95@jwsss.com> References: <67b0baec-b500-89c2-636d-fad7d9622a95@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 2:47 AM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > CMD was the name of the division that manufactured the disks, The division was Magnetic Peripherals Inc. (MPI). I've never heard of it having been called CMD either before or after it was called MPI. There was an (AFAIK) entirely unrelated company named CMD Technology Inc. that made disk controllers. FWIW. Not heard of CDC calling it anything other than SMD. According to CDC and MPI documents on various drives, and the SMD/MMD/CMD specification document: SMD = Storage Module Drive MMD = Mini-Module Drive CMD = Cartridge Module Drive These were separate groups of products, though they obviously had similarities, and the interface was essentially identical. > It was their golden goose, so though it's not really a spec, reading the > specs of any CDC > drive of an equivalent capability as you are looking for is probably > what any standard would contain. There's most definitely an interface specification that is not specific to any given drive. For original SMD/MMD/CMD, it is CDC document 64712400, which went through many revisions, some of which can be found on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/interface_specs/64712400_SMDCableSpec_Mar81.pdf The technical specifications of any given drive model give a substantial faction of the interface specification, but not necessarily all of it. There are optional features that may not be implemented in a particular drive model, and a model may have minor deviations from the spec. Also the interface specification may allow broader ranges of characteristics than are documented for any given drive. If you're designing an SMD controller or an SMD drive, you should definitely design to the interface specification, though looking at individual drive model specs is also informative. Unfortunately the later CDC specification for the SMD-E interface (a superset of the SMD interface) does not seem to be available anywhere. I think the ANSI specification covers SMD-E, but I'm not 100% certain. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Dec 15 04:05:33 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 02:05:33 -0800 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: References: <67b0baec-b500-89c2-636d-fad7d9622a95@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 12/14/2019 10:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > According to CDC and MPI documents on various drives, and the > SMD/MMD/CMD specification document: > ??? SMD = Storage Module Drive > ??? MMD = Mini-Module Drive > ??? CMD = Cartridge Module Drive > These were separate groups of products, though they obviously had > similarities, and the interface was essentially identical. Those definitions are correct, but there was no no difference in the data interface that we ever worried about with our product. I don't know that I recall SMD being a product as much as a reference to the interface they had though. I've got an MMD160 I hope to restore.? When we were selling systems, we had both 80mb CMD and 80mb MMD's and they had identical specs as far as heads and tracks.? Main difference was the CMD top disk could crash as it wasn't totally sealed.? And our application had no provision to use a removable platter. But we ran with the CMD without any problem just to be sure. There was an EMD line that CDC came out with which had two drives in the space occupied by an MMD.? If I recall I think the transfer rate was about twice the rate of the MMD, with larger numbers of bits / track. For our design, we used a CRC chip to generate and check the recording.? When the EMD came out, we couldn't get our design modified to use the preferred ECC chip, and the logic couldn't keep up with the data rate.? So the controller we had stuck with the original interface. Thanks Jim thanks Jim From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Sun Dec 15 10:40:29 2019 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 08:40:29 -0800 Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? Message-ID: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> Is it classic enough to ask about on this list? A friend of mine finds himself in the awkward position of being asked to take on some RPG programming, but knows nothing about it. Can anyone here suggest some good resources for a crash course in RPG? Yes, any web search engine will throw up a lot of hits, but I'm hoping someone here can help select the most useful ones. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Dec 15 11:30:55 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 17:30:55 +0000 Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> Message-ID: On 12/15/19 11:40 AM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > Is it classic enough to ask about on this list? Can't say about the list, but rather than classic the usual term for these systems is legacy. > > A friend of mine finds himself in the awkward position of being asked to > take on some RPG programming, but knows nothing about it. Like COBOL and Fortan most people think these languages have completely gone away. Sadly, the only thing that is going away is the body of experience writing and maintaining them. > > Can anyone here suggest some good resources for a crash course in RPG? > Yes, any web search engine will throw up a lot of hits, but I'm hoping > someone here can help select the most useful ones. I still have a number of RPG books on the bookshelf behind me right now. Haven't worked with it in a long time but always liked it when I had the opportunity. Just out of curiosity, is this on iSeries? bill From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sun Dec 15 11:37:46 2019 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 18:37:46 +0100 Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <7d3cfff46e1057bf5960415d6ad49db0b6c5949c.camel@agj.net> s?n 2019-12-15 klockan 08:40 -0800 skrev Guy N. via cctalk: > Is it classic enough to ask about on this list? > > A friend of mine finds himself in the awkward position of being asked > to > take on some RPG programming, but knows nothing about it. > > Can anyone here suggest some good resources for a crash course in > RPG? > Yes, any web search engine will throw up a lot of hits, but I'm > hoping > someone here can help select the most useful ones. > considering that an industry here in sweden is looking for people with knowledge of RPG (in an iSeries environment) or with a personality which suits. They also have a rather large MOVEX deployment (RPG is used in an ERP solution.) From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Dec 15 12:39:15 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 11:39:15 -0700 Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <0473bfc5-93be-7942-92f9-9e35ed141f36@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/15/19 9:40 AM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > Is it classic enough to ask about on this list? ?\_(?)_/? The department of motor vehicle defines "classic" as a vehicle at least 25 years old. I strongly suspect that RPG is at least 25 years old. > A friend of mine finds himself in the awkward position of being asked > to take on some RPG programming, but knows nothing about it. Is this an AS/400 / iSeries / IBM i environment? That's about the only place that I see (any version of) RPG being used. > Can anyone here suggest some good resources for a crash course in RPG? I've found the people in the comp.sys.ibm.as400.misc newsgroup to be friendly. Given the AS/400 nature of RPG, I suspect that there are multiple people there which can help. > Yes, any web search engine will throw up a lot of hits, but I'm hoping > someone here can help select the most useful ones. You will likely have a lot of collisions, with role playing games. I'd suggest that you include "IBM" in the search string. You can probably find a number of tutorials online and / or books at the various second hand for sale sites. I just fear that there's going to be a LOT more noise to signal for this. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -- Grant. . . . unix || die From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 12:40:18 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 18:40:18 -0000 Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <168201d5b377$197907a0$4c6b16e0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > via cctalk > Sent: 15 December 2019 17:31 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Is IBM RPG classic? > > On 12/15/19 11:40 AM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > > Is it classic enough to ask about on this list? > > Can't say about the list, but rather than classic the usual term for these systems > is legacy. > > > > A friend of mine finds himself in the awkward position of being asked > > to take on some RPG programming, but knows nothing about it. > > Like COBOL and Fortan most people think these languages have completely > gone away. Sadly, the only thing that is going away is the body of experience > writing and maintaining them. I think another issue is that the employer's expectations of what they need to pay does not match what such programmers want to move. Many Fortran, Cobol and I guess RPG programmers have moved onto lucrative jobs or are established in a particular area. I am sure if employers were more realistic and prepared to acknowledge such skills are valuable there would be more programmers. I guess if they are looking for C , C++ or VB programmers you can get some you hopefuls cheap. That?s rather harder for COBOL, Fortran or RPG. (If any one wants Fortran and is prepared to condone remote working I am available) > > > > > Can anyone here suggest some good resources for a crash course in RPG? > > Yes, any web search engine will throw up a lot of hits, but I'm hoping > > someone here can help select the most useful ones. > One mans perfect course is another nightmare. I would have a look at the resources and see which ones you like.... > I still have a number of RPG books on the bookshelf behind me right now. > Haven't worked with it in a long time but always liked it when I had the > opportunity. > > Just out of curiosity, is this on iSeries? > > bill > Dave From spedraja at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 12:43:21 2019 From: spedraja at gmail.com (Sergio Pedraja) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 19:43:21 +0100 Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: <7d3cfff46e1057bf5960415d6ad49db0b6c5949c.camel@agj.net> References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> <7d3cfff46e1057bf5960415d6ad49db0b6c5949c.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: > > > considering that an industry here in sweden is looking for people with > knowledge of RPG (in an iSeries environment) or with a personality > which suits. > They also have a rather large MOVEX deployment (RPG is used in an ERP > solution.) > Interesting. On the other hand, I got some books about RPG (legacy in terms of age) but depending on the work to do it would be better to get some literature of references more recent. From System/36 or iSeries. And be careful about the RPG language version involved (I, II, III...) Cordiales saludos / Best Regards / Salutations / Freundliche Gr??e ----- Sergio Pedraja From shadoooo at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 13:31:30 2019 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 20:31:30 +0100 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, well maybe my memory has blank spots. I have two CDC Lark Disk modules I would like to revive, they are in good shape, but only one has a cartridge included, and they are not identical. Not sure if the other one could be employed without cartridge. I never found a manual with exact model correspondence, I found years ago a manual for very similar drives. IIRC there was a sort of adapter board between SMD and (xxx blank spot) interface. There was a description of the interface, it was really similar to SMD, but wasn't SMD... Maybe I should check again the Lark model number. Andrea From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 15 13:50:49 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 11:50:49 -0800 Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> Message-ID: On 12/15/19 8:40 AM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > Is it classic enough to ask about on this list? > > A friend of mine finds himself in the awkward position of being asked to > take on some RPG programming, but knows nothing about it. > > Can anyone here suggest some good resources for a crash course in RPG? > Yes, any web search engine will throw up a lot of hits, but I'm hoping > someone here can help select the most useful ones. For me at least, the question is "which RPG?". 1401 or S/360 RPG is a fair bit different from RPG IV, which, I believe still enjoys some use. That it persists this long has always mystified me. RPG clearly was for people familiar with unit-record data processing (sorters, collators, accounting machines, etc.) That there are practically *no* people alive who are familiar the EAM school of data processing, defies logic for any popularity of RPG. i.e., Go figure. To the people of the microcomputer age, "RPG" appears to refer only to "role playing games". --Chuck From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Dec 15 14:12:07 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 14:12:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <73852165.86679.1576440727943@email.ionos.com> > To the people of the microcomputer age, "RPG" appears to refer only to"role playing games". > --Chuck Then there are those of us who, upon hearing "RPG", initially think of something entirely different:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG Will "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.org From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Dec 15 14:47:22 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 15:47:22 -0500 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34e381c7-acc5-6a2e-3fa9-e6ce450aef36@alembic.crystel.com> Oddly enough I have a 9457 Lark out in the shed. The trick is the SMD to whatever it is connection is made in the power supply box, there is a ribbon cable going from the box to up to two drives and an SMD interface on the other side. Do you have the power supply? C On 12/15/2019 2:31 PM, shadoooo via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > well maybe my memory has blank spots. > I have two CDC Lark Disk modules I would like to revive, they are in good > shape, but only one has a cartridge included, and they are not identical. > Not sure if the other one could be employed without cartridge. > I never found a manual with exact model correspondence, I found years ago a > manual for very similar drives. > IIRC there was a sort of adapter board between SMD and (xxx blank spot) > interface. There was a description of the interface, it was really similar > to SMD, but wasn't SMD... > Maybe I should check again the Lark model number. > > Andrea > From ucespamdump at gmail.com Sat Dec 14 11:58:56 2019 From: ucespamdump at gmail.com (crufta cat) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:58:56 -0500 Subject: Tap, tap, tap, is this working??? Message-ID: Signed up this new account exclusively for CCtech and CCchat. Hopefully its working. Why do this? I had to shut off the other subscription for spam reasons. Allison From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 01:19:39 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 07:19:39 -0000 Subject: FW: [GreenKeys] DURA Selectric ASR terminals free In-Reply-To: <84110692-842d-0aa2-fcca-51d1afc1547f@tubetestingpros.com> References: <84110692-842d-0aa2-fcca-51d1afc1547f@tubetestingpros.com> Message-ID: <112301d5b318$03c189a0$0b449ce0$@gmail.com> I wonder if there is any interest here... -----Original Message----- From: greenkeys-bounces at mailman.qth.net On Behalf Of John Lawson Sent: 10 December 2019 17:41 To: greenkeys at mailman.qth.net Subject: [GreenKeys] DURA Selectric ASR terminals free Greetings List! I have a couple of "DURA" Selectric ASR terminals. I also have some limited documentation on them. Neither of them work as far as I know. I tried to run the one in the pic when I first got it, but it's jammed - so on the shelf it went. They appear to be an 8-level code, dunno if ASCII, EBCDIC, or what. These are joining the ever-expanding list of "Projects Never to be Completed", so if anyone is interested, lemme know. They are free, you pay shipping, they are about 50 pounds each and will require some thoughtful packing. Local pickup is happily offered, and I could possibly be bribed into delivering them within a day's drive of Carson City (weather permitting). Cheers John KB6SCO Carson City -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Untitled attachment 03148.txt URL: From roelof_klaas at yahoo.com Sun Dec 15 08:12:49 2019 From: roelof_klaas at yahoo.com (Roland) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 14:12:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: M906 flip chip boards wanted (2x) References: <215568718.9013260.1576419169425.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <215568718.9013260.1576419169425@mail.yahoo.com> Hello everyone,? Can anyone help me to get two M906terminator flip chip boards?? Thanks in advance,?Roland Huisman From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 11:10:01 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 12:10:01 -0500 Subject: Odd Symptom PDP 8e Running Programs Message-ID: Hi - I am looking for some help. I have had a PDP 8e with RK05 drives that has run pretty reliably for many years, but after moving it a strange symptom has come up, preventing it from operating correctly. I am hoping someone can advise. Here is an example 1. Power up drives and PDP 8e 2. Load OS/8 3. Load ADVENT 4. Program loads, asks if I want instructions. I can enter Y or N and the system responds. The familiar scrolling light pattern appears on the front panel to indicate awaiting input 5. As soon as I attempt an action such as "S" (with no quotes) the front panel freezes and I have to CTRL+C to exit ADVENT, dumping me to the dot prompt. Similar issue when running the MUSIC.SV program. I can load the program and get up to the point of entering a song, but when I enter a song name the system freezes on the first note. BASIC works fine however. Which tells me that I have a CPU problem, not a RAM problem but this is just my hunch. Any ideas how to diagnose this? Running MAINDEC programs is always frustrating. I am attempting to load the main DECX8 SYSTEM EXERCISER to see if there are any clues from this as to the cause of the freezing system. . https://www.pdp8online.com/os/os8/os8_cmd.shtml#DECX8 Thanks Bill From reboot at ncf.ca Sun Dec 15 14:54:35 2019 From: reboot at ncf.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 15:54:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: <73852165.86679.1576440727943@email.ionos.com> References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> <73852165.86679.1576440727943@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <488879023.7612575.1576443275565.JavaMail.zimbra@ncf.ca> It was part of our program in the '90s possible because it was still in use by the local utility company, and popular on the AS/400. But learning that and APL gave me a distorted sense of program beauty. ----- Original Message ----- > From: "General Discussion, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > To: "General Discussion, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 3:12:07 PM > Subject: Re: Is IBM RPG classic? >> To the people of the microcomputer age, "RPG" appears to refer only to"role >> playing games". >> --Chuck > > Then there are those of us who, upon hearing "RPG", initially think of something > entirely different:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG > > Will > > > "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to > add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery > > > "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.org From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 15 15:25:55 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 13:25:55 -0800 Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: <73852165.86679.1576440727943@email.ionos.com> References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> <73852165.86679.1576440727943@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <298e3150-96fb-45c7-c028-41155c9d9e85@sydex.com> On 12/15/19 12:12 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > >> To the people of the microcomputer age, "RPG" appears to refer only to"role playing games". >> --Chuck > > Then there are those of us who, upon hearing "RPG", initially think of something entirely different:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG > Retrograde pyelogram? :) --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 15 15:57:46 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 13:57:46 -0800 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: <34e381c7-acc5-6a2e-3fa9-e6ce450aef36@alembic.crystel.com> References: <34e381c7-acc5-6a2e-3fa9-e6ce450aef36@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 12/15/19 12:47 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Oddly enough I have a 9457 Lark out in the shed. I've been looking for one for a while to try to recover an early Sun Unix if you don't have a need for it. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Dec 15 16:31:47 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 22:31:47 +0000 Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: <168201d5b377$197907a0$4c6b16e0$@gmail.com> References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> <168201d5b377$197907a0$4c6b16e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/15/19 1:40 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> via cctalk >> Sent: 15 December 2019 17:31 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Is IBM RPG classic? >> >> On 12/15/19 11:40 AM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: >>> Is it classic enough to ask about on this list? >> >> Can't say about the list, but rather than classic the usual term for these systems >> is legacy. >>> >>> A friend of mine finds himself in the awkward position of being asked >>> to take on some RPG programming, but knows nothing about it. >> >> Like COBOL and Fortan most people think these languages have completely >> gone away. Sadly, the only thing that is going away is the body of experience >> writing and maintaining them. > > I think another issue is that the employer's expectations of what they need to pay does not match what such programmers want to move. > Many Fortran, Cobol and I guess RPG programmers have moved onto lucrative jobs Legacy jobs pay quite well. Many pay 6 figures. The real problem is that schools not only stopped teaching these languages but in some cases took to openly attacking them and doing everything in their power to convince students to no even look at them. (Yes, I saw that first hand during my 25 years at a University where I fought very hard to keep them in the curriculum!) The result is that these people are not moving but retiring and there are no replacements coming up thru the ranks to fill the empty holes. > or are established in a particular area. > I am sure if employers were more realistic and prepared to acknowledge such skills are valuable there would be more programmers. Employers aren't the problem, academia is the problem. > I guess if they are looking for C , C++ or VB programmers you can get some you hopefuls cheap. That?s rather harder for COBOL, Fortran or RPG. > (If any one wants Fortran and is prepared to condone remote working I am available) I am available for pretty much any of the legacy languages. But then if you actually have experience with these languages you also have the age problem to get past. > >> >>> >>> Can anyone here suggest some good resources for a crash course in RPG? >>> Yes, any web search engine will throw up a lot of hits, but I'm hoping >>> someone here can help select the most useful ones. >> > > One mans perfect course is another nightmare. I would have a look at the resources and see which ones you like.... > >> I still have a number of RPG books on the bookshelf behind me right now. >> Haven't worked with it in a long time but always liked it when I had the >> opportunity. >> >> Just out of curiosity, is this on iSeries? >> >> bill >> > Dave > bill From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 16:46:00 2019 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 17:46:00 -0500 Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <943BD21E873F4C69B108875D97B3A993@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" To: "Guy N. via cctalk" Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 2:50 PM Subject: Re: Is IBM RPG classic? ... there are practically *no* people alive who are familiar [with] the EAM school of data processing... --------------- Hey! We're not *all* dead yet... m From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 15 17:11:41 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 15:11:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: <73852165.86679.1576440727943@email.ionos.com> References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> <73852165.86679.1576440727943@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: > Is it classic enough to ask about on this list? Can't say about the list, but rather than classic the usual term for these systems is legacy. Or maybe "walking undead". First sign of the zombie apocalypse? Can't kill what keeps coming back from the dead. >> To the people of the microcomputer age, "RPG" appears to refer only >> to"role playing games". >> --Chuck On Sun, 15 Dec 2019, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > Then there are those of us who, upon hearing "RPG", initially think of > something entirely different:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG There could be some overlap. Don't some of the "first person shooter" games have RPGs? Or only BFG? > Retrograde pyelogram? :) Had any kidney stones? Having clarified that we are talking about IBM Report Program generator, I have known people who had an outright hatred of RPG. I can understand not having any interest in it, but why the hostility? From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 17:32:50 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 16:32:50 -0700 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: References: <67b0baec-b500-89c2-636d-fad7d9622a95@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 3:05 AM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I don't know that I recall SMD being a product as much as a reference to > the interface they had though. > "SMD" was in fact a product name. The CDC976x, BK4XX, BK5XX, BK6XX, and BK7XX series drives had the official name "CDC(R) Storage Module Drive", from whence came the "SMD" name for the interface, starting with the 9760 in 1973. MMD and CMD drives came along a few years later. AFAIK the MMD drives weren't too popular in the early years, but gained traction in the 1980s. CMD drives, on the other hand, were an instant hit, starting with the 9427 "Hawk" drive in 1977. From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 17:41:06 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 16:41:06 -0700 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 12:31 PM shadoooo via cctalk wrote: > I have two CDC Lark Disk modules I would like to revive, they are in good > [...] > IIRC there was a sort of adapter board between SMD and (xxx blank spot) > interface. There was a description of the interface, it was really similar > to SMD, but wasn't SMD... > LDI, Lark Device Interface. Not really all that similar to SMD. CDC offered an SMD-to-LDI adapter. Maybe I should check again the Lark model number. > The ones I've seen were 9457, but there was also a 9455 which had a wider track pitch resulting in it having roughly 1/3 the tracks and 1/3 the capacity of the 9457. From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Dec 15 19:35:28 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 19:35:28 -0600 Subject: FW: [GreenKeys] DURA Selectric ASR terminals free In-Reply-To: <112301d5b318$03c189a0$0b449ce0$@gmail.com> References: <84110692-842d-0aa2-fcca-51d1afc1547f@tubetestingpros.com> <112301d5b318$03c189a0$0b449ce0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5DF6DF60.1060908@pico-systems.com> On 12/15/2019 01:19 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > I wonder if there is any interest here... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: greenkeys-bounces at mailman.qth.net On Behalf Of John Lawson > Sent: 10 December 2019 17:41 > To: greenkeys at mailman.qth.net > Subject: [GreenKeys] DURA Selectric ASR terminals free > > > Greetings List! > > I have a couple of "DURA" Selectric ASR terminals. I also have some limited documentation on them. Neither of them work as far as I know. I tried to run the one in the pic when I first got it, but it's jammed - so on the shelf it went. > > They appear to be an 8-level code, dunno if ASCII, EBCDIC, or what. The punched tape is EIA, I think. There are diode matrices to convert to the internal Selectric code of rotation and tilt of the ball. I had one of these hooked to a CP/M system back around 1980, I used it exclusively as a printer. I could likely dig out some code that sent the data to them. A quick look did not turn up the interface. I seem to recall it had some pretty weird logic levels, PNP Germanium transistors, etc. It is possible to trip too many solenoids at one time and command the rotate or tilt summing levers to exceed the limits of the ball. That will break bands on the carriage. I had no problem getting replacement parts when I had that happen on mine. Not too sure Selectric parts are available anymore. Jon > These are joining the ever-expanding list of "Projects Never to be Completed", so if anyone is interested, lemme know. > > They are free, you pay shipping, they are about 50 pounds each and will require some thoughtful packing. > > Local pickup is happily offered, and I could possibly be bribed into delivering them within a day's drive of Carson City (weather permitting). > > > Cheers > > John KB6SCO > > Carson City > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 15 20:05:18 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 18:05:18 -0800 Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> <73852165.86679.1576440727943@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <57669dee-76fa-aaf3-e01a-171379814631@sydex.com> On 12/15/19 3:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Retrograde pyelogram? :) > Had any kidney stones? Oh yes, the sensations are etched in my memory permanently. > Having clarified that we are talking about IBM Report Program generator, > I have known people who had an outright hatred of RPG.? I can understand > not having any interest in it, but why the hostility? Pick a language, any language--you'll find someone who hates it. That's why there are so many. --Chuck From steven at malikoff.com Sun Dec 15 20:15:02 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 12:15:02 +1000 Subject: FW: [GreenKeys] DURA Selectric ASR terminals free In-Reply-To: <5DF6DF60.1060908@pico-systems.com> References: <84110692-842d-0aa2-fcca-51d1afc1547f@tubetestingpros.com> <112301d5b318$03c189a0$0b449ce0$@gmail.com> <5DF6DF60.1060908@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <97ccf38de0a919b9bd82161ae7087edc.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> > On 12/15/2019 01:19 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> I wonder if there is any interest here... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: greenkeys-bounces at mailman.qth.net On Behalf Of John Lawson >> Sent: 10 December 2019 17:41 >> To: greenkeys at mailman.qth.net >> Subject: [GreenKeys] DURA Selectric ASR terminals free >> >> >> Greetings List! >> >> I have a couple of "DURA" Selectric ASR terminals. I also have some limited documentation on them. Neither of them work as far as I know. I tried to run the one in the pic when I first got it, but it's jammed - so on the shelf it went. >> >> They appear to be an 8-level code, dunno if ASCII, EBCDIC, or what. > The punched tape is EIA, I think. There are diode matrices > to convert to the internal Selectric code of rotation and > tilt of the ball. I had one of these hooked to a CP/M > system back around 1980, I used it exclusively as a printer. > > I could likely dig out some code that sent the data to > them. A quick look did not turn up the interface. > I seem to recall it had some pretty weird logic levels, PNP > Germanium transistors, etc. > > It is possible to trip too many solenoids at one time and > command the rotate or tilt summing levers to exceed the > limits of the ball. That will break bands on the carriage. > I had no problem getting replacement parts when I had that > happen on mine. Not too sure Selectric parts are available > anymore. > > Jon > > >> These are joining the ever-expanding list of "Projects Never to be Completed", so if anyone is interested, lemme know. >> >> They are free, you pay shipping, they are about 50 pounds each and will require some thoughtful packing. >> >> Local pickup is happily offered, and I could possibly be bribed into delivering them within a day's drive of Carson City (weather permitting). >> >> >> Cheers >> >> John KB6SCO >> >> Carson City Interfacing the Dura 1041 is very well covered in the book 'THE SELECTRIC INTERFACE A Hands-on Approach' by George Young. There are whole chapters on the Dura 1041 printer, encoding the Dura eyboard, interfacting the punch, tape reader and more. Steve. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 20:43:08 2019 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 22:43:08 -0400 Subject: FW: [GreenKeys] DURA Selectric ASR terminals free In-Reply-To: <5DF6DF60.1060908@pico-systems.com> References: <84110692-842d-0aa2-fcca-51d1afc1547f@tubetestingpros.com> <112301d5b318$03c189a0$0b449ce0$@gmail.com> <5DF6DF60.1060908@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4c129294-718b-965a-43ef-a10f86724b9d@gmail.com> On 2019-12-15 9:35 p.m., Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 12/15/2019 01:19 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> I wonder if there is any interest here... >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: greenkeys-bounces at mailman.qth.net >> On Behalf Of John Lawson >> Sent: 10 December 2019 17:41 >> To: greenkeys at mailman.qth.net >> Subject: [GreenKeys] DURA Selectric ASR terminals free >> >> >> Greetings List! >> >> I have a couple of "DURA" Selectric ASR terminals.? I also have some >> limited documentation on them. Neither of them work as far as I know. >> I tried to run the one in the pic when I first got it, but it's >> jammed - so on the shelf it went. >> >> They appear to be an 8-level code, dunno if ASCII, EBCDIC, or what. > The punched tape is EIA, I think.? There are diode matrices to convert > to the internal Selectric code of rotation and tilt of the ball.? I > had one of these hooked to a CP/M system back around 1980, I used it > exclusively as a printer. > > I could likely dig out some code that sent the data to them.? A quick > look did not turn up the interface. > I seem to recall it had some pretty weird logic levels, PNP Germanium > transistors, etc. > > It is possible to trip too many solenoids at one time and command the > rotate or tilt summing levers to exceed the > limits of the ball.? That will break bands on the carriage.? I had no > problem getting replacement parts when I had that > happen on mine.? Not too sure Selectric parts are available anymore. > > Jon > > >> These are joining the ever-expanding list of "Projects Never to be >> Completed", so if anyone is interested, lemme know. >> >> They are free, you pay shipping, they are about 50 pounds each and >> will require some thoughtful packing. >> >> Local pickup is happily offered, and I could possibly be bribed into >> delivering them within a day's drive of Carson City (weather >> permitting). >> >> >> Cheers >> >> John KB6SCO >> >> Carson City >> Speaking as a person that has been up to my elbows in many Selectric terminals it is not possible to select too many of the selection magnets at the same time? if you pick all of the selection magnet at the same time you will get -5 rotate and 0 tilt.? Picking any of the positive selection magnets pulls the associated latch off the bail and cancels the positive motion of that latch. Picking the -5 magnet releases the -5 bail to get -5 motion which can be then combined with +1 +2 +3? +4 +5 rotate to get -4 -3 -2 -1 and 0 rotate respectively.? Now if you trip the shift magnet during a print cycle bad things will happen bad things will happen, a down shift while the ball is detented will usually result in the the rotate tape jumping off the shift arm and if you are lucky the ball will get released and it will wind up the slack and the rotate tape will? get caught on the dust cover and you can carefully? rotate the ball while keeping tension on the rotate tape and ease it back onto the shift arm.? An upshift while detented will probably break the rotate tape. The ones I used to work on the most where banking terminals with up to 3 selectrics on a control unit so if we where replacing something like a rotate tape the bank would not let us turn off the control unit and inside the typers there where unprotected 48V terminal block for the magnets, if you touched one with the rotate tape you where threading in it would burn the tape in half and to add insult blow the 48V fuse. Paul. From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Dec 15 21:23:33 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 21:23:33 -0600 Subject: RSTS emulation in a browser (now "FILMGR") In-Reply-To: <20191214051446.A87FB273F4@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <008601d5ab7c$fad33de0$f079b9a0$@thewaffleiron.net> <20191205165831.B2AE72740C@mx1.ezwind.net> <20191207212000.45F70273B0@mx1.ezwind.net> <555d2c65-f307-0b24-ab25-1ea4a262f338@charter.net> <20191210175430.C78FD273FE@mx1.ezwind.net> <20191210211007.068544E6CB@mx2.ezwind.net> <20191214051446.A87FB273F4@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20191216033240.8F44B27373@mx1.ezwind.net> At 11:11 PM 12/13/2019, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >Another RSTS question. One of my rescued tapes has only several >files with the extension ".FLB" Compared to other files of the >sets, these are relatively large... up to a meg or so. I'd found some RAD-50 filenames in the headers at constant positions, names like I24J19.DAT and K82LOG.DAT. Not the source code I was hoping for - maybe some kind of login/logout logs, or program usage logs. The smaller FLB files seem to contain some text and code fragments, confirming the idea that it didn't bother to compress the last partial block of a file. Someone on comp.sys.dec thought they might be from the FMS-11 forms management system but that doesn't make sense based on the contents I see so far. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 15 22:16:08 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 20:16:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: <57669dee-76fa-aaf3-e01a-171379814631@sydex.com> References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> <73852165.86679.1576440727943@email.ionos.com> <57669dee-76fa-aaf3-e01a-171379814631@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Dec 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Pick a language, any language--you'll find someone who hates it. That's > why there are so many. . . . and, every Master's degree computer science student writes a programming language. Dijkstra had clever nasty things to say about many programming languages. I can't find his opinion about RPG. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Dec 15 23:41:39 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 00:41:39 -0500 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: References: <34e381c7-acc5-6a2e-3fa9-e6ce450aef36@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <4fc809d2-41c1-3828-69db-9dd6218b7810@alembic.crystel.com> I could probably lend it out, as I have a hacked copy of RSX11M on it. First I have to find the controller/power supply. Will check around next time I'm up in the attic. C On 12/15/2019 4:57 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/15/19 12:47 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Oddly enough I have a 9457 Lark out in the shed. > > I've been looking for one for a while to try to recover an early Sun Unix > if you don't have a need for it. > > From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Dec 16 00:22:08 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 07:22:08 +0100 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: References: <67b0baec-b500-89c2-636d-fad7d9622a95@jwsss.com> Message-ID: m?ndag 16 december 2019 skrev Eric Smith via cctalk : > On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 3:05 AM jim stephens via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I don't know that I recall SMD being a product as much as a reference to > > the interface they had though. > > > > "SMD" was in fact a product name. The CDC976x, BK4XX, BK5XX, BK6XX, and > BK7XX series drives had the official name "CDC(R) Storage Module Drive", > from whence came the "SMD" name for the interface, starting with the 9760 > in 1973. MMD and CMD drives came along a few years later. AFAIK the MMD > drives weren't too popular in the early years, but gained traction in the > 1980s. CMD drives, on the other hand, were an instant hit, starting with > the 9427 "Hawk" drive in 1977. > The Hawk was quite different from the Phoenix. Actually it was not a Cartridge Module Drive, rather it was called Cartridge Disk Drive. While the CMD and SMD drives could be used on the same host interface the Hawk could not since the interface was different from the SMD interface. From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Mon Dec 16 06:33:38 2019 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Veit, Holger) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 13:33:38 +0100 Subject: Tap, tap, tap, is this working??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5520ac1a-4684-f115-90ec-59e8ea5441cc@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 14.12.2019 um 18:58 schrieb crufta cat via cctech: > Signed up this new account exclusively for CCtech and CCchat. > > Hopefully its working. Why do this? I had to shut off the > other subscription for spam reasons. > > Allison How did you manage to subscribe? I have been trying to change my subscription address for more than a year, and both web site as well as mail request have been completely ignored so far. Holger From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 16 08:26:43 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 06:26:43 -0800 Subject: SMD disk specifications In-Reply-To: References: <67b0baec-b500-89c2-636d-fad7d9622a95@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4448c044-bd21-c7a3-2e65-75f7630b13f6@bitsavers.org> On 12/15/19 10:22 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > While > the CMD and SMD drives could be used on the same host interface the Hawk > could not since the interface was different from the SMD interface. > I've been told by someone who worked down in OK that there were MANY different OEM variations of the Hawk. I probably have a dozen sets of manuals for them scanned but not on line. They all share similar Diablo/Pertec style interfaces. From david at kdbarto.org Mon Dec 16 10:52:42 2019 From: david at kdbarto.org (David Barto) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 08:52:42 -0800 Subject: Mac 3.5" floppies for anyone who wants them In-Reply-To: <06E781BD-61A0-405F-A6F8-6BF472787560@zipcon.net> References: <06E781BD-61A0-405F-A6F8-6BF472787560@zipcon.net> Message-ID: <3B774E3E-51DB-48F2-A7C4-91F74E4B5EFF@kdbarto.org> Last retry. I?ve still got them and if anyone wants them, let me know. David > On Nov 11, 2019, at 1:17 AM, Geoff Reed wrote: > > Has anyone claimed these? This just came across my email. > > ?On 10/20/19, 11:39 AM, "cctalk on behalf of David via cctalk" wrote: > > A collection just came to me. These are the original disks, with whatever labels are on them. > As a set. First come first served. > If you are in San Diego I?ll arrange a swap with you locally. > If remote, we can arrange shipping. > > 1.44MB unless otherwise noted. > Copyright years noted so version number might be determined along with what version of Mac it might support. > > GRAVIS Mac Blackhawk Version 1.0 (2 disk) > ClarisWorks 4.0 (6 disks) > ClarisWorks Small Business Solutions Pack. > Correct Grammar For Mac Version 3.0 (2 disks) > APS PowerTools V 1.3.1 > Mac ally Port Xpander Driver Program (copyright 1995-1997) > Welltris, Spectrum Holobyte (800K disks, S/N 013045, 2 disks) > MicroSoft Excel Version 4.0. (800K disks, 7 Disks, copyright 85-92) > MicroSoft PowerPoint (800K disks, 4 disks, copyright 87-89) > MicroSoft Mail Version 2.0 (800k?, Copyright 85-89) > Conflict Catcher 3 (800K 1 disk) > dantz Retrospect (2 disks, copyright 97) > Suitcase II, (400K disk, S/N 4200-0103685 Copyright 86) > Hayden Books - The Internet Starter Kit for Macintosh Disk. Contains: > Eudora 1.4 > Fetch 2.1.1 > InterSLIP 1.0 > MacTCP 2.2 > Stuffit Expander 3.03 > TurboGopher 1.07 > Nova Development - American Handbook of Business Letters (800k?, Copyright 90) > Aladdin Stuffit Lite (800k?, Copyright 87-92) > Aladdin Spring Cleaning (Copyright 96) > Connectix Ram Doubler (800k?, 1.5.1 hand written on disk, copyright 94) > CTSNET Macintosh Internet Signup > > Since my Father in law as Mac Only, I had no idea where these came from > Windows Syquest SCSI installation Diskette 1, copyright 94 > Windows 95 Syquest Installation diskette 2 > DOS/Windows & OS/2 SCSI installation diskette 3 > > > > > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Dec 16 10:55:44 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 17:55:44 +0100 Subject: Mac 3.5" floppies for anyone who wants them In-Reply-To: <3B774E3E-51DB-48F2-A7C4-91F74E4B5EFF@kdbarto.org> References: <06E781BD-61A0-405F-A6F8-6BF472787560@zipcon.net> <3B774E3E-51DB-48F2-A7C4-91F74E4B5EFF@kdbarto.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 at 17:52, David Barto via cctalk wrote: > > Last retry. I?ve still got them and if anyone wants them, let me know. May I pass this message on, e.g. to one of the many LowEndMac groups? Anonymised if you prefer. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dittman at dittman.net Mon Dec 16 11:02:16 2019 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 11:02:16 -0600 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: <9a4581aa-09b8-bd9d-2844-499c2152d9e7@sydex.com> References: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> <888532a2-142b-70d7-2d54-e9fe6eb66b63@sydex.com> <9a4581aa-09b8-bd9d-2844-499c2152d9e7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9da38530-31cc-a6ad-f744-e5383ff1606f@dittman.net> On 12/13/19 8:42 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Believe it or not, the "flippy" was actually patented in 1974. > > US3932895A > > ...and let's not forget the 3" CF2 diskettes--designed to be flippies > right fron the get-go. > > BASF certainly marketed 5.25" flippies: > > https://cdn.instructables.com/FWP/3D0Z/GXL5XZ3U/FWP3D0ZGXL5XZ3U.LARGE.jpg I have two Aerocomp flippy drives. They have two index sensors and two write protect sensors so the disk doesn't need to be punched. They were in external cases with a system I bought and when I opened them for inspection before use I noticed the extra wires and sensors. -- Eric Dittman From david at kdbarto.org Mon Dec 16 11:04:59 2019 From: david at kdbarto.org (David Barto) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 09:04:59 -0800 Subject: Mac 3.5" floppies for anyone who wants them In-Reply-To: References: <06E781BD-61A0-405F-A6F8-6BF472787560@zipcon.net> <3B774E3E-51DB-48F2-A7C4-91F74E4B5EFF@kdbarto.org> Message-ID: <7F885833-B1BB-4DA6-9756-180F55611F02@kdbarto.org> And claimed. David > On Dec 16, 2019, at 8:55 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 at 17:52, David Barto via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Last retry. I?ve still got them and if anyone wants them, let me know. > > May I pass this message on, e.g. to one of the many LowEndMac groups? > Anonymised if you prefer. > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 16 11:54:13 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 09:54:13 -0800 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: <9da38530-31cc-a6ad-f744-e5383ff1606f@dittman.net> References: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> <888532a2-142b-70d7-2d54-e9fe6eb66b63@sydex.com> <9a4581aa-09b8-bd9d-2844-499c2152d9e7@sydex.com> <9da38530-31cc-a6ad-f744-e5383ff1606f@dittman.net> Message-ID: <71649c7b-1322-4bd2-86fb-415883422d27@sydex.com> On 12/16/19 9:02 AM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: > > I have two Aerocomp flippy drives.? They have two index sensors and > two write protect sensors so the disk doesn't need to be punched.? They > were in external cases with a system I bought and when I opened them for > inspection before use I noticed the extra wires and sensors. Probably few folks remember what a struggle it was to develop a double-sided floppy drive. It's not just a matter of two identical heads, one on each surface... --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Mon Dec 16 11:59:27 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 18:59:27 +0100 Subject: Mac 3.5" floppies for anyone who wants them In-Reply-To: <7F885833-B1BB-4DA6-9756-180F55611F02@kdbarto.org> References: <06E781BD-61A0-405F-A6F8-6BF472787560@zipcon.net> <3B774E3E-51DB-48F2-A7C4-91F74E4B5EFF@kdbarto.org> <7F885833-B1BB-4DA6-9756-180F55611F02@kdbarto.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 at 18:05, David Barto wrote: > > And claimed. Oh! Well, that was quick. :-) -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dittman at dittman.net Mon Dec 16 12:23:41 2019 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 12:23:41 -0600 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: <71649c7b-1322-4bd2-86fb-415883422d27@sydex.com> References: <3c4cd1eb-0031-8f48-17a4-8fa845c063c1@mich.com> <888532a2-142b-70d7-2d54-e9fe6eb66b63@sydex.com> <9a4581aa-09b8-bd9d-2844-499c2152d9e7@sydex.com> <9da38530-31cc-a6ad-f744-e5383ff1606f@dittman.net> <71649c7b-1322-4bd2-86fb-415883422d27@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/16/19 11:54 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/16/19 9:02 AM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: >> >> I have two Aerocomp flippy drives.? They have two index sensors and >> two write protect sensors so the disk doesn't need to be punched.? They >> were in external cases with a system I bought and when I opened them for >> inspection before use I noticed the extra wires and sensors. > > > Probably few folks remember what a struggle it was to develop a > double-sided floppy drive. It's not just a matter of two identical > heads, one on each surface... The system came with a bunch of disks. I imaged them as single-sided 40-track disks when I first got the system as that's what was normal for the system and when I looked at the images in an emulator they looked good. After I realized the drive were flippy drives I then had to go through the disks again with the flippy drive to make sure there wasn't anything on the other side (there wasn't). -- Eric Dittman From mbbrutman at brutman.com Mon Dec 16 12:35:09 2019 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 10:35:09 -0800 Subject: Looking for a Motorola Universal Data Systems 212A/D manual Message-ID: I ran across this modem (circa 1982) and saved it, but I have no idea on how to control it. Bitsavers doesn't seem to have a manual for it. It's a big, blue plastic box and it looks wonderful. There is an array of 8 lights and 6 buttons; the HS button enables 1200 bps operation, otherwise it is 300 bps. It echoes characters and responds correctly to DataTerminalReady not being asserted, so I think that if I can find the command set it might be functional. It's a little more primitive than my original Hayes 1200 that I first got in 1984. (I'm not expecting a standard command set.) A picture of it can be found here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/zWBPimcpZNUch6G28 Thanks, Mike From ucespamdump at gmail.com Mon Dec 16 11:53:19 2019 From: ucespamdump at gmail.com (crufta cat) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 12:53:19 -0500 Subject: Tap, tap, tap, is this working??? In-Reply-To: <5520ac1a-4684-f115-90ec-59e8ea5441cc@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <5520ac1a-4684-f115-90ec-59e8ea5441cc@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: Simple I unsubed the old address and did a fresh subscription for a new one. Why I did that is more interesting. I have had issues with spam for a while and it was getting seriously worst for the last year. So I started shutting down any lists I had signed up for and this (cctalk/cctech) was the last. For a long while I thought it was yahoo groups but when they went away there was no drop. So I unsubed from here and it stopped, hard. I believe there is a someone or something that is subscribed to the list and scrape it for active names. and emails. I have no idea what the specific how it is done but it is a trivial coding task to extract emails for sale as known active. It was not coming though the list but from bots most likely and used list members names to obscure being spam/uce//malware. IT would nto take much to create a subscription and have that go to some automation to capture information. The question is how many listen only members are there that have never ever posted a comment? This account is used only for this list. If it gets spamed then I know its from and outlet somewhere on the list but not majordomo and I have it cornered in a single use account I can ignore or destroy at a moments notice. Allison On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 7:34 AM Veit, Holger via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Am 14.12.2019 um 18:58 schrieb crufta cat via cctech: > > Signed up this new account exclusively for CCtech and CCchat. > > > > Hopefully its working. Why do this? I had to shut off the > > other subscription for spam reasons. > > > > Allison > How did you manage to subscribe? I have been trying to change my > subscription address for more than a year, and both web site as well as > mail request have been completely ignored so far. > > Holger > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Dec 16 14:47:14 2019 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 20:47:14 +0000 (WET) Subject: Tap, tap, tap, is this working??? In-Reply-To: References: <5520ac1a-4684-f115-90ec-59e8ea5441cc@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <01RF1ZQTF0388X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Allison wrote: > > I believe there is a someone or something that is subscribed to the list > and scrape it for active > names. and emails. I have no idea what the specific how it is done but it > is a trivial coding > task to extract emails for sale as known active. It was not coming though > the list but from > bots most likely and used list members names to obscure being > spam/uce//malware. > IT would nto take much to create a subscription and have that go to some > automation > to capture information. The question is how many listen only members are > there that > have never ever posted a comment? > That is bizarre. I've used the address used to post this message only for this mailing list for donkeys years now and it has received very close to zero spam. The most recent spam I received arrived on 24th May 2019. Regards, Peter Coghlan From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Mon Dec 16 15:25:26 2019 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 15:25:26 -0600 Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <20191216212526.GA19781@RawFedDogs.net> On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 08:40:29AM -0800, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > Is it classic enough to ask about on this list? Older fixed format RPG probably would be. Modern free format RPG probably wouldn't be. > A friend of mine finds himself in the awkward position of being asked to > take on some RPG programming, but knows nothing about it. I knew very little about it before we migrated from our IBM mainframe system running z/OS to an IBM i based system where I work a few years ago. > Can anyone here suggest some good resources for a crash course in RPG? It depends on the version and platform. For free format on an IBM i, something like: https://www.Amazon.com/Free-Format-RPG-IV-Express-Learning/dp/1583474137 and/or http://www.RedBooks.IBM.com/abstracts/sg245402.html might be helpful. And/or sites like the RPGPGM Blog: http://www.RPGPgm.com and/or RPG Cafe: https://www.IBM.com/developerworks/ibmi/rpg/welcome -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Dec 16 16:01:56 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 14:01:56 -0800 Subject: Looking for a Motorola Universal Data Systems 212A/D manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28629510-4491-4139-9398-50873195135D@shaw.ca> On 2019-Dec-16, at 10:35 AM, Michael Brutman via cctalk wrote: > I ran across this modem (circa 1982) and saved it, but I have no idea on > how to control it. Bitsavers doesn't seem to have a manual for it. > > It's a big, blue plastic box and it looks wonderful. There is an array of > 8 lights and 6 buttons; the HS button enables 1200 bps operation, otherwise > it is 300 bps. It echoes characters and responds correctly to > DataTerminalReady not being asserted, so I think that if I can find the > command set it might be functional. > > It's a little more primitive than my original Hayes 1200 that I first got > in 1984. (I'm not expecting a standard command set.) A picture of it can > be found here: > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/zWBPimcpZNUch6G28 These refs might give some clues: https://books.google.ca/books?id=u1cLS3rMWSwC&pg=RA2-PA1-IA15&lpg=RA2-PA1-IA15&dq=motorola+212A/D&source=bl&ots=exwzJccl5t&sig=ACfU3U2pl0FAtd80wNsCDz5MtxYdZxs4zg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjFl-_SlLvmAhXTPn0KHb1TC4YQ6AEwCHoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=motorola%20212A%2FD&f=false (Switch configs for a model variation and reference to an "XXXT" escape sequence.) https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/modems-telephone-ISDN/M-O/MOTOROLA-INC-Modem-synchronous-asynchronous-212A-D.html (Manuals for related products) https://arcelect.com/Telenetics-UDS_202T-VDC_modem.htm https://arcelect.com/UDS_201BC-AS_modem.htm From ucespamdump at gmail.com Mon Dec 16 16:18:47 2019 From: ucespamdump at gmail.com (crufta cat) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 17:18:47 -0500 Subject: Tap, tap, tap, is this working??? In-Reply-To: <01RF1ZQTF0388X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> References: <5520ac1a-4684-f115-90ec-59e8ea5441cc@iais.fraunhofer.de> <01RF1ZQTF0388X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: It may be that my address got into the local address book of a contaminated system but stopping this net for several weeks brought the spam and trash mail from 25-80 a day to zero near instantly (less than 12 hours.). I've bailed from the list in the past for periods for the same reason. I cannot filter the spam due to multiple reasons. Its not bizarre as people do want valid addresses for scams and legit offers for crap I do not want. It is my belief that we have a user that is farming the list and getting though spam filters. If you do not. then great. I've been active here for a very long time (since I was on WSTD.COM). It has been a persistent problem that always starts small and grows quickly and then I start filtering till I'm killing good mail. On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 4:23 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Allison wrote: > > > > I believe there is a someone or something that is subscribed to the list > > and scrape it for active > > names. and emails. I have no idea what the specific how it is done but > it > > is a trivial coding > > task to extract emails for sale as known active. It was not coming > though > > the list but from > > bots most likely and used list members names to obscure being > > spam/uce//malware. > > IT would nto take much to create a subscription and have that go to some > > automation > > to capture information. The question is how many listen only members are > > there that > > have never ever posted a comment? > > > > That is bizarre. I've used the address used to post this message only for > this mailing list for donkeys years now and it has received very close to > zero spam. The most recent spam I received arrived on 24th May 2019. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan > From drb at msu.edu Mon Dec 16 17:06:28 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 18:06:28 -0500 Subject: Looking for a Motorola Universal Data Systems 212A/D manual In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 16 Dec 2019 10:35:09 -0800.) References: Message-ID: <20191216230628.9655524620D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I ran across this modem (circa 1982) and saved it, but I have no idea > on how to control it. Bitsavers doesn't seem to have a manual for > it. You might try the v.25bis command set: https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-V.25bis-199610-I/en De From mbbrutman at brutman.com Mon Dec 16 17:07:00 2019 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 15:07:00 -0800 Subject: Looking for a Motorola Universal Data Systems 212A/D manual In-Reply-To: <28629510-4491-4139-9398-50873195135D@shaw.ca> References: <28629510-4491-4139-9398-50873195135D@shaw.ca> Message-ID: Brent - thanks! I had found the arcelect site and read the docs on a few related modems; that gave me some insight. But a lot of what they have is more primitive that this one, so much of the manuals do not apply. I opened the case looking for clues and taped to the underside of the lid was a handwritten note that said "To awaken the UDS 212A/D mode send to UT capital EN or H Help menu." It was a little cryptic but sending "EN" did launch me into a menu system that would let me dial or set pre-set phone numbers for dialing. At the moment it auto answers and tries to dial, but it won't complete a connection. My VOIP line might be to blame for that. I'm happy because I got really lucky with the handwritten note ... On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 2:02 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2019-Dec-16, at 10:35 AM, Michael Brutman via cctalk wrote: > > I ran across this modem (circa 1982) and saved it, but I have no idea on > > how to control it. Bitsavers doesn't seem to have a manual for it. > > > > It's a big, blue plastic box and it looks wonderful. There is an array > of > > 8 lights and 6 buttons; the HS button enables 1200 bps operation, > otherwise > > it is 300 bps. It echoes characters and responds correctly to > > DataTerminalReady not being asserted, so I think that if I can find the > > command set it might be functional. > > > > It's a little more primitive than my original Hayes 1200 that I first got > > in 1984. (I'm not expecting a standard command set.) A picture of it > can > > be found here: > > > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/zWBPimcpZNUch6G28 > > > > These refs might give some clues: > > > https://books.google.ca/books?id=u1cLS3rMWSwC&pg=RA2-PA1-IA15&lpg=RA2-PA1-IA15&dq=motorola+212A/D&source=bl&ots=exwzJccl5t&sig=ACfU3U2pl0FAtd80wNsCDz5MtxYdZxs4zg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjFl-_SlLvmAhXTPn0KHb1TC4YQ6AEwCHoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=motorola%20212A%2FD&f=false > > > (Switch configs for a model variation and reference to an "XXXT" > escape sequence.) > > https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/modems-telephone-ISDN/M-O/MOTOROLA-INC-Modem-synchronous-asynchronous-212A-D.html > > > (Manuals for related products) > https://arcelect.com/Telenetics-UDS_202T-VDC_modem.htm > https://arcelect.com/UDS_201BC-AS_modem.htm From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Dec 16 17:07:24 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 18:07:24 -0500 Subject: Bad heads on RL02: Worth replacing Message-ID: So one of my RL02 drives (bought on Ebay years ago) is eating RL02 packs. Makes tings, then the disks have errors in my other RL02 drive. Took a bit to figure out which drive was eating what, but I'm 100% certain it's this newer drive. So pulled the heads. The top one had significant gunk on it, the bottom one a bit. Pics below. Top: https://i.imgur.com/FELhF9X.jpg Bottom: https://i.imgur.com/Tmsf5Nd.jpg With alcohol and lintless swabs I managed to clean both of the heads up. Top: https://i.imgur.com/gmACM4R.jpg Bottom: https://i.imgur.com/SfZQV5F.jpg Then put them back in the drive and mounted a scratch pack. With finger on the load/run I let the drive spin up and when I heard tinging I immediately spun down. Hopefully I didn't trash my scratch pack. Top head has gunk, bottom one had a few flecks, but looks pretty ok. Top: https://i.imgur.com/EAvgmuH.jpg Bottom: (picture didn't upload) Obviously the head is crashing, any idea why and if it's worth replacing the head or should I put this drive out for parts? Yes I cleaned the RL02 pack before putting it in. Never dull. CZ From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 16 17:26:07 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 15:26:07 -0800 Subject: Bad heads on RL02: Worth replacing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90CE8EF2-10C3-42E0-B528-0F7A8E1D7737@shiresoft.com> > On Dec 16, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > So one of my RL02 drives (bought on Ebay years ago) is eating RL02 packs. Makes tings, then the disks have errors in my other RL02 drive. Took a bit to figure out which drive was eating what, but I'm 100% certain it's this newer drive. > > So pulled the heads. The top one had significant gunk on it, the bottom one a bit. Pics below. > > Top: https://i.imgur.com/FELhF9X.jpg > Bottom: https://i.imgur.com/Tmsf5Nd.jpg > > With alcohol and lintless swabs I managed to clean both of the heads up. > > Top: https://i.imgur.com/gmACM4R.jpg > Bottom: https://i.imgur.com/SfZQV5F.jpg > > Then put them back in the drive and mounted a scratch pack. With finger on the load/run I let the drive spin up and when I heard tinging I immediately spun down. Hopefully I didn't trash my scratch pack. > > Top head has gunk, bottom one had a few flecks, but looks pretty ok. > Top: https://i.imgur.com/EAvgmuH.jpg > Bottom: (picture didn't upload) > > Obviously the head is crashing, any idea why and if it's worth replacing the head or should I put this drive out for parts? Yes I cleaned the RL02 pack before putting it in. > > Never dull. I would try replacing the head(s). TTFN - Guy From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Dec 16 18:23:57 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 00:23:57 +0000 Subject: Bad heads on RL02: Worth replacing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The head likely has something on it that you missed. Use your finger to feel the head. Your finger is quite sensitive to tiny roughness. Of course, clean your finger oil off before putting it back in. Make sure that first landing area is smooth and flat. Almost all of the head needs to have the cushion of air. With things stationary, look at how the head comes down on the surface. The larger part needs to be parallel to the surface. Most heads have a slight curve on the leading edge to help trap the air. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chris Zach via cctalk Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 3:07 PM To: CCTalk mailing list Subject: Bad heads on RL02: Worth replacing So one of my RL02 drives (bought on Ebay years ago) is eating RL02 packs. Makes tings, then the disks have errors in my other RL02 drive. Took a bit to figure out which drive was eating what, but I'm 100% certain it's this newer drive. So pulled the heads. The top one had significant gunk on it, the bottom one a bit. Pics below. Top: https://i.imgur.com/FELhF9X.jpg Bottom: https://i.imgur.com/Tmsf5Nd.jpg With alcohol and lintless swabs I managed to clean both of the heads up. Top: https://i.imgur.com/gmACM4R.jpg Bottom: https://i.imgur.com/SfZQV5F.jpg Then put them back in the drive and mounted a scratch pack. With finger on the load/run I let the drive spin up and when I heard tinging I immediately spun down. Hopefully I didn't trash my scratch pack. Top head has gunk, bottom one had a few flecks, but looks pretty ok. Top: https://i.imgur.com/EAvgmuH.jpg Bottom: (picture didn't upload) Obviously the head is crashing, any idea why and if it's worth replacing the head or should I put this drive out for parts? Yes I cleaned the RL02 pack before putting it in. Never dull. CZ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 16 18:41:05 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 19:41:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: WANTED: DEC TU56 DECtape drive Message-ID: <20191217004105.76A2118C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Thomas Moss > Probably a long-shot, but I'm looking for a DECtape drive for my > PDP-8/e. Long shot indeed! DECtape drives are one of the rarest DEC peripheral, and un-surprisingly, one of the most valuable. (A TU56 sold on eBait for $7K back in 2015.) Would a TU55 do, or does it have to be a TU56? (The interface is basically compatible, I think, but I have yet to dig into the details, so I can't say for certain. But I think I recall seeing systems with one or the other, and AFAIK the controllers aren't drive-type specific - the cabling might be, though.) Noel From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Dec 16 19:34:28 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 17:34:28 -0800 Subject: System/36 Kansas City In-Reply-To: References: <055c01d5b1da$7db04ab0$7910e010$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9cefdb-d47e-406e-149b-e188cb720a95@jwsss.com> The system was picked up by a collector, according to the person who had it on Saturday, 12/14.? Hope it has a good future. thanks Jim On 12/13/2019 11:10 AM, Mister PDP via cctalk wrote: > Man, that its one nice system. If I didn?t already have a S/36, I would be > driving down there as we speak. Maybe one of these days I will get my hands > on a 9 track for the S/36 like the one in the images. > > Oh well, good luck to whoever ends up getting the system! > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 11:26 AM Dave Wade via cctalk > wrote: > >> In case any one is interested.. >> >> >> >> https://www.facebook.com/groups/retrocomputers/permalink/3042809669082227/ >> >> >> >> Dave Wade >> >> G4UGM & EA7KAE >> >> >> >> > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Dec 16 19:42:21 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 17:42:21 -0800 Subject: Seeking information on the CSTS Timesharing service Message-ID: Does anyone have any information on Infonet, which was a timesharing which CSC put out?? I've got some info that it had a timesharing service called CSTS and would like info on that. I've got info on the original version of the Pick system which IP was owned by TRW and was called GIM.? The CSTS Infonet service provided access in some way to IGIM, which is in a manual I just obtained. So I want to know if there is any CSTS manuals or documents (ideally) anyone may have. Secondly it looks like rather than IBM mainframes for timeshare, the systems that Infonet shared were Univac 1108s.? So looking for verifying that. Especially if the systems were all Univac was IGIM running on the 1108. The time frame for the manual is 1974.? GIM dates from 69 to 70 from a TRW contract.? Actual product was obviously running in one form in 1974.? There is information that it ran on PDP 11s as well in another form. While searching for information with Google, I found some court proceedings, including a precedent related to RICO charges on individuals in Infonet.? If anyone finds the original indictment, or can get to it on pacer, I'd appreciate a copy to read, or send message, I'll supply the citation.? A better source like Pacer probably will retrieve the original indictment.? I only find a decision which was reversed related to the indictment.? I suspect there would be a lot of history in the indictment around the 1980 ish timeframe of the indictment about how CSC ran Infonet. Short story on what you will find online a lot of spots is a precedent set by the 4th Circuit of Appeals which resolved a technicality about whether individuals and corporations were the same WRT charges.? The ruling that RICO applied to individuals and not corporations was filed by a trial court.? But the appeals court said that the actions if they constituted RICO by individuals could be go back on the corporation they operated in was the precedent. Obviously not a good one for corporations. Thanks, Jim From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Dec 16 21:57:29 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 22:57:29 -0500 Subject: Bad heads on RL02: Worth replacing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7e3282ee-9dc5-cc67-3469-30022d510985@alembic.crystel.com> Well, I did check the head pretty thoroughly before installing it: One problem was there were dirt particles that were not coming off so I used the tip of a tweezer to loosen them up. Note I do this to watch dial faces from the 1870's (oddly enough also porcelain) so I'm pretty careful and am not making major scratches into that ceramic head. But I did a finger check, it's smooth. I'm wondering if the problem is the leading edge of the head is angled down or something: From the debris on the leading edge it's looking like it is digging into the pack. Not sure if this can be adjusted, or even what adjusting the head would be like. Interesting. I'll check the pack next weekend for damage before trying it in the good RL02 to see if it has any more errors on the disk. C On 12/16/2019 7:23 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > The head likely has something on it that you missed. Use your finger to feel the head. Your finger is quite sensitive to tiny roughness. Of course, clean your finger oil off before putting it back in. Make sure that first landing area is smooth and flat. Almost all of the head needs to have the cushion of air. With things stationary, look at how the head comes down on the surface. The larger part needs to be parallel to the surface. Most heads have a slight curve on the leading edge to help trap the air. > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Chris Zach via cctalk > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 3:07 PM > To: CCTalk mailing list > Subject: Bad heads on RL02: Worth replacing > > So one of my RL02 drives (bought on Ebay years ago) is eating RL02 > packs. Makes tings, then the disks have errors in my other RL02 drive. > Took a bit to figure out which drive was eating what, but I'm 100% > certain it's this newer drive. > > So pulled the heads. The top one had significant gunk on it, the bottom > one a bit. Pics below. > > Top: https://i.imgur.com/FELhF9X.jpg > Bottom: https://i.imgur.com/Tmsf5Nd.jpg > > With alcohol and lintless swabs I managed to clean both of the heads up. > > Top: https://i.imgur.com/gmACM4R.jpg > Bottom: https://i.imgur.com/SfZQV5F.jpg > > Then put them back in the drive and mounted a scratch pack. With finger > on the load/run I let the drive spin up and when I heard tinging I > immediately spun down. Hopefully I didn't trash my scratch pack. > > Top head has gunk, bottom one had a few flecks, but looks pretty ok. > Top: https://i.imgur.com/EAvgmuH.jpg > Bottom: (picture didn't upload) > > Obviously the head is crashing, any idea why and if it's worth replacing > the head or should I put this drive out for parts? Yes I cleaned the > RL02 pack before putting it in. > > Never dull. > CZ > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Dec 16 22:01:33 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 23:01:33 -0500 Subject: Bad heads on RL02: Worth replacing In-Reply-To: <7e3282ee-9dc5-cc67-3469-30022d510985@alembic.crystel.com> References: <7e3282ee-9dc5-cc67-3469-30022d510985@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <330477a0-200c-a1ca-f62b-dbde178b45ff@alembic.crystel.com> On a funny side note, I have a -30 rating on Imgur now since a few of the posts of these drive heads were posted with names like "dirty bottom" and "clean top". Ooops. Looks like drive heads are not a proper kink... On 12/16/2019 10:57 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Well, I did check the head pretty thoroughly before installing it: One > problem was there were dirt particles that were not coming off so I used > the tip of a tweezer to loosen them up. Note I do this to watch dial > faces from the 1870's (oddly enough also porcelain) so I'm pretty > careful and am not making major scratches into that ceramic head. > > But I did a finger check, it's smooth. > > I'm wondering if the problem is the leading edge of the head is angled > down or something: From the debris on the leading edge it's looking like > it is digging into the pack. Not sure if this can be adjusted, or even > what adjusting the head would be like. > > Interesting. I'll check the pack next weekend for damage before trying > it in the good RL02 to see if it has any more errors on the disk. > > C > > > On 12/16/2019 7:23 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> The head likely has something on it that you missed. Use your finger >> to feel the head. Your finger is quite sensitive to tiny roughness. Of >> course, clean your finger oil off before putting it back in. Make sure >> that first landing area is smooth and flat. Almost all of the head >> needs to have the cushion of air. With things stationary, look at how >> the head comes down on the surface. The larger part needs to be >> parallel to the surface. Most heads have a slight curve on the leading >> edge to help trap the air. >> Dwight >> >> ________________________________ >> From: cctalk on behalf of Chris Zach >> via cctalk >> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 3:07 PM >> To: CCTalk mailing list >> Subject: Bad heads on RL02: Worth replacing >> >> So one of my RL02 drives (bought on Ebay years ago) is eating RL02 >> packs. Makes tings, then the disks have errors in my other RL02 drive. >> Took a bit to figure out which drive was eating what, but I'm 100% >> certain it's this newer drive. >> >> So pulled the heads. The top one had significant gunk on it, the bottom >> one a bit. Pics below. >> >> Top: https://i.imgur.com/FELhF9X.jpg >> Bottom: https://i.imgur.com/Tmsf5Nd.jpg >> >> With alcohol and lintless swabs I managed to clean both of the heads up. >> >> Top: https://i.imgur.com/gmACM4R.jpg >> Bottom: https://i.imgur.com/SfZQV5F.jpg >> >> Then put them back in the drive and mounted a scratch pack. With finger >> on the load/run I let the drive spin up and when I heard tinging I >> immediately spun down. Hopefully I didn't trash my scratch pack. >> >> Top head has gunk, bottom one had a few flecks, but looks pretty ok. >> Top: https://i.imgur.com/EAvgmuH.jpg >> Bottom: (picture didn't upload) >> >> Obviously the head is crashing, any idea why and if it's worth replacing >> the head or should I put this drive out for parts? Yes I cleaned the >> RL02 pack before putting it in. >> >> Never dull. >> CZ >> From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Mon Dec 16 08:24:23 2019 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 06:24:23 -0800 Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> <73852165.86679.1576440727943@email.ionos.com> <57669dee-76fa-aaf3-e01a-171379814631@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1576506263.29744.3.camel@moondog> On Sun, 2019-12-15 at 20:16 -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Dijkstra had clever nasty things to say about many programming languages. > I can't find his opinion about RPG. Unprintable, even on the interwebs? :-) Thanks for all the replies, both humorous and informative. I'll try to find out what version of RPG my friend has the misfortune to be working with, and what platform it's on. From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Dec 17 07:47:13 2019 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 14:47:13 +0100 Subject: Speaking of RPG.... was :Re: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: <1576506263.29744.3.camel@moondog> References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> <73852165.86679.1576440727943@email.ionos.com> <57669dee-76fa-aaf3-e01a-171379814631@sydex.com> <1576506263.29744.3.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <0abb23be-c946-78ec-a103-4635886ef996@farumdata.dk> Hi all, This discussion brought up some memories. Until I retired, I was in the media conversion business (read : handling media Windows did not support). One of my customers was the danish Custom and Tax authority, and they had a peculiar problem. They wanted the incoming data to be verified before the data was forwarded to the mainframe, so they did not have to search through boxes of media when errors were found, in order to be able to return the medium to the supplier. The software used for the conversion, was called 'Intermedia for Windows'. Apart from being able to do normal conversions, there was the possibility to lead the data through a customer-defined DLL, before being written to the ouputfile. So what I had to do, was to develop a Windows DLL, doing whatever was specified by the customer, including writing errorlists, table look-ups and other niceties. And as the customer had RPG-II experience in-house, the job was clearly defined. This was accomplished by writing an RPG-II editor, written in Delphi. A program would then interprete the RPG-II source, and would then compile it into a DLL. Surprisingly, it worked quite well /Nico On 2019-12-16 15:24, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 2019-12-15 at 20:16 -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Dijkstra had clever nasty things to say about many programming languages. >> I can't find his opinion about RPG. > Unprintable, even on the interwebs? :-) > > Thanks for all the replies, both humorous and informative. I'll try to > find out what version of RPG my friend has the misfortune to be working > with, and what platform it's on. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Dec 17 06:31:23 2019 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 12:31:23 +0000 (WET) Subject: Tap, tap, tap, is this working??? In-Reply-To: References: <5520ac1a-4684-f115-90ec-59e8ea5441cc@iais.fraunhofer.de> <01RF1ZQTF0388X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RF2YKH0XT48X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Allison wrote: > > It may be that my address got into the local address book of a contaminated > system but stopping this net for several weeks brought > the spam and trash mail from 25-80 a day to zero near instantly (less than > 12 hours.). I've bailed from the list in the past for periods > for the same reason. I cannot filter the spam due to multiple reasons. > > Its not bizarre as people do want valid addresses for scams and > legit offers for crap I do not want. > What is bizarre is that one email address that posts to the list is getting lots of spam and another email address that also posts to the list is not. What is also bizarre is that your spam stops when you unsubscribe from the list (if that is what you mean by "stopping this net" and "bailed from the list" above). In my experience, once a spammer finds an email address, they don't bother to check whether the address is still active any time they want to send spam to it. They just keep on sending irregardless. > > It is my belief that we have a user that is farming the list and getting > though spam filters. > I think you are jumping to conclusions here. In my experience, spammers are very lazy people and they are just not willing to put in that sort of effort. Unless the spams you are getting are very specifically designed for you, I would discount this theory. > > If you do not. then great. I've been active here for a very long time > (since I was on WSTD.COM). > I'm a mere blow in that hasn't been here more than 25 years. I worked for an email provider for 15 years and for the first 5 years of that, email spam didn't really exist (unless you count the "call for papers" type of academic spam). After that, I put a lot of work into understanding spam and preventing it from getting to or from our customers. > > It has been a persistent problem that always starts small and grows quickly > and then I start filtering > till I'm killing good mail. > It is really really difficult to come up with a useful filtering system that can recognise and stop spam without stopping good mail too. The only ones I use are DNS based lists of ip addresses which are known sources of spam, such as those operated by Spamhaus. I also use my own homegrown ip lists. This approach works for me because I have my own mail server. If you are stuck with using a commercial email provider, you are stuck with what they are using. Many commercial providers won't even reveal what they are using. As for the free email providers, forget it. The ip address based filtering I use stopped just one spam going to my cctalk mailbox since April 2019 (there was a spate of it in April). Filtering is never a complete solution. The best way to avoid spam is to avoid having email addresses harvested but this is not always possible when people we correspond with unwittingly get their machines compromised. Another thing I believe makes a difference is to complain about every single spam received to the ip provider of the spammer or the compromised machine used to send the spam. Nobody else I know is willing to put the effort into doing this though. However, nobody else I know has as good a legitimate mail to spam mail ratio as I do either. (Obviously this approach can not help when already getting too much spam to cope with.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Dec 17 08:25:22 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 08:25:22 -0600 Subject: RSTS emulation in a browser (now "FILMGR") In-Reply-To: <20191216033240.8F44B27373@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <008601d5ab7c$fad33de0$f079b9a0$@thewaffleiron.net> <20191205165831.B2AE72740C@mx1.ezwind.net> <20191207212000.45F70273B0@mx1.ezwind.net> <555d2c65-f307-0b24-ab25-1ea4a262f338@charter.net> <20191210175430.C78FD273FE@mx1.ezwind.net> <20191210211007.068544E6CB@mx2.ezwind.net> <20191214051446.A87FB273F4@mx1.ezwind.net> <20191216033240.8F44B27373@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20191217144041.284274E6EF@mx2.ezwind.net> At 09:23 PM 12/15/2019, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >At 11:11 PM 12/13/2019, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >>Another RSTS question. One of my rescued tapes has only several >>files with the extension ".FLB" Compared to other files of the >>sets, these are relatively large... up to a meg or so. And in digging through the 1000+ files on these backups, I found some code that I had written back in '82 that bursts these FLB files back into their constituent files. So weird to have forgotten it all, so weird to find my own code. Yes, they could've been created by some UW-Madison home-grown tool that bundled files together. So has anyone uploaded ready-to-use DSK images with all of RSTS in them? I'd like the full BASIC-PLUS and FORTRAN environment at my fingers. Or do I need to build them myself from TAP images? - John From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Dec 17 08:52:56 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 14:52:56 +0000 Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: <1576506263.29744.3.camel@moondog> References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> <73852165.86679.1576440727943@email.ionos.com> <57669dee-76fa-aaf3-e01a-171379814631@sydex.com> <1576506263.29744.3.camel@moondog> Message-ID: On 12/16/19 9:24 AM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 2019-12-15 at 20:16 -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Dijkstra had clever nasty things to say about many programming languages. >> I can't find his opinion about RPG. > > Unprintable, even on the interwebs? :-) > > Thanks for all the replies, both humorous and informative. I'll try to > find out what version of RPG my friend has the misfortune to be working > with, and what platform it's on. Itf it can be done remote I would be glad to relieve him of the misfortune. :-) Some of us have enough experience to know the value of some of these legacy systems. bill From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 17 11:06:28 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 09:06:28 -0800 Subject: Bad heads on RL02: Worth replacing In-Reply-To: <7e3282ee-9dc5-cc67-3469-30022d510985@alembic.crystel.com> References: <7e3282ee-9dc5-cc67-3469-30022d510985@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 12/16/19 7:57 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I'm wondering if the problem is the leading edge of the head is angled down or something: From the debris on the leading > edge it's looking like it is digging into the pack. Not sure if this can be adjusted, or even what adjusting the head > would be like. > The characteristics of the head are not adjustable. In my experience with 2315 packs, the top heads are the most prone to crashing. You have to make sure the platter is absolutely clean, spinning at the right speed, and there is nothing on the outer edge when the heads load. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Tue Dec 17 11:30:32 2019 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 11:30:32 -0600 Subject: Is IBM RPG classic? In-Reply-To: <20191216212526.GA19781@RawFedDogs.net> References: <1576428029.25989.5.camel@moondog> <20191216212526.GA19781@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <20191217173032.GA13235@RawFedDogs.net> On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 03:25:26PM -0600, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote: > It depends on the version and platform. For free format on an IBM i, > something like: Another good resource for modern IBM i RPG is the RPG400-L mailing list: https://Lists.MidRange.com/mailman/listinfo/rpg400-l -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Tue Dec 17 11:30:55 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 11:30:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: RCA 1802s available Message-ID: <2070155284.328690.1576603855623@email.ionos.com> An ad was emailed to me today with an interesting item: RCA 1802 processors. I thought there may be some folks here interested: https://www.bgmicro.com/9z1509.aspx Not affiliated in any way other than a customer. Will From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 17 12:56:03 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 10:56:03 -0800 Subject: RCA 1802s available In-Reply-To: <2070155284.328690.1576603855623@email.ionos.com> References: <2070155284.328690.1576603855623@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On 12/17/19 9:30 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > An ad was emailed to me today with an interesting item: RCA 1802 processors. Not a bad price, did you buy any? Were they actually RCA-branded parts from the 70's? From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Tue Dec 17 12:57:31 2019 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 13:57:31 -0500 Subject: Seeking information on the CSTS Timesharing service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/computer-sciences-corporation-history/ Has some bits of data from my memory. I did some work on the Mailgram system, putting PDP8/e boxes as comms front ends to 1108s. On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 8:42 PM jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > > Does anyone have any information on Infonet, which was a timesharing > which CSC put out? I've got some info that it had a timesharing service > called CSTS and would like info on that. > > I've got info on the original version of the Pick system which IP was > owned by TRW and was called GIM. The CSTS Infonet service provided > access in some way to IGIM, which is in a manual I just obtained. > > So I want to know if there is any CSTS manuals or documents (ideally) > anyone may have. > > Secondly it looks like rather than IBM mainframes for timeshare, the > systems that Infonet shared were Univac 1108s. So looking for verifying > that. > > Especially if the systems were all Univac was IGIM running on the 1108. > > The time frame for the manual is 1974. GIM dates from 69 to 70 from a > TRW contract. Actual product was obviously running in one form in > 1974. There is information that it ran on PDP 11s as well in another form. > > While searching for information with Google, I found some court > proceedings, including a precedent related to RICO charges on > individuals in Infonet. If anyone finds the original indictment, or can > get to it on pacer, I'd appreciate a copy to read, or send message, I'll > supply the citation. A better source like Pacer probably will retrieve > the original indictment. I only find a decision which was reversed > related to the indictment. I suspect there would be a lot of history in > the indictment around the 1980 ish timeframe of the indictment about how > CSC ran Infonet. > > Short story on what you will find online a lot of spots is a precedent > set by the 4th Circuit of Appeals which resolved a technicality about > whether individuals and corporations were the same WRT charges. The > ruling that RICO applied to individuals and not corporations was filed > by a trial court. But the appeals court said that the actions if they > constituted RICO by individuals could be go back on the corporation they > operated in was the precedent. Obviously not a good one for corporations. > > > > Thanks, > Jim From ucespamdump at gmail.com Tue Dec 17 13:17:14 2019 From: ucespamdump at gmail.com (crufta cat) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 14:17:14 -0500 Subject: Tap, tap, tap, is this working??? In-Reply-To: <01RF2YKH0XT48X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> References: <5520ac1a-4684-f115-90ec-59e8ea5441cc@iais.fraunhofer.de> <01RF1ZQTF0388X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> <01RF2YKH0XT48X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: I use hosts blacklisting , but its up to some huge number of addresses. When I say bailed its an unsub. I suspect its not majordomo or listserve directly. The easy way is subscribe and copy the mail and scrape the addresses. People are starting to see that level of activity on groups.IO. Compromised machines makes the list activity visible as well. I wonder of all the subscriber how many have posted something or anything in the last 6 month, year, ever? I suspect the never cases. Short term solution is use Gmail then run for a while and then kill it or leave it to as a bit bucket and replace with new Gmail. Allison On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 9:02 AM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Allison wrote: > > > > It may be that my address got into the local address book of a > contaminated > > system but stopping this net for several weeks brought > > the spam and trash mail from 25-80 a day to zero near instantly (less > than > > 12 hours.). I've bailed from the list in the past for periods > > for the same reason. I cannot filter the spam due to multiple reasons. > > > > Its not bizarre as people do want valid addresses for scams and > > legit offers for crap I do not want. > > > > What is bizarre is that one email address that posts to the list is getting > lots of spam and another email address that also posts to the list is not. > > What is also bizarre is that your spam stops when you unsubscribe from the > list (if that is what you mean by "stopping this net" and "bailed from the > list" above). In my experience, once a spammer finds an email address, > they don't bother to check whether the address is still active any time > they want to send spam to it. They just keep on sending irregardless. > > > > > It is my belief that we have a user that is farming the list and getting > > though spam filters. > > > > I think you are jumping to conclusions here. In my experience, spammers > are very lazy people and they are just not willing to put in that sort of > effort. Unless the spams you are getting are very specifically designed > for you, I would discount this theory. > > > > > If you do not. then great. I've been active here for a very long time > > (since I was on WSTD.COM). > > > > I'm a mere blow in that hasn't been here more than 25 years. I worked for > an email provider for 15 years and for the first 5 years of that, email > spam didn't really exist (unless you count the "call for papers" type of > academic spam). After that, I put a lot of work into understanding spam > and preventing it from getting to or from our customers. > > > > > It has been a persistent problem that always starts small and grows > quickly > > and then I start filtering > > till I'm killing good mail. > > > > It is really really difficult to come up with a useful filtering system > that > can recognise and stop spam without stopping good mail too. The only ones > I use are DNS based lists of ip addresses which are known sources of spam, > such as those operated by Spamhaus. I also use my own homegrown ip lists. > This approach works for me because I have my own mail server. If you are > stuck with using a commercial email provider, you are stuck with what they > are using. Many commercial providers won't even reveal what they are > using. > As for the free email providers, forget it. > > The ip address based filtering I use stopped just one spam going to my > cctalk mailbox since April 2019 (there was a spate of it in April). > Filtering > is never a complete solution. The best way to avoid spam is to avoid > having > email addresses harvested but this is not always possible when people we > correspond with unwittingly get their machines compromised. > > Another thing I believe makes a difference is to complain about every > single > spam received to the ip provider of the spammer or the compromised machine > used to send the spam. Nobody else I know is willing to put the effort > into > doing this though. However, nobody else I know has as good a legitimate > mail > to spam mail ratio as I do either. (Obviously this approach can not help > when already getting too much spam to cope with.) > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From ucespamdump at gmail.com Tue Dec 17 13:22:00 2019 From: ucespamdump at gmail.com (crufta cat) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 14:22:00 -0500 Subject: RCA 1802s available In-Reply-To: References: <2070155284.328690.1576603855623@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: They are likely later than the 70s and even more likely Intersil made parts from the 80s and even later. Same for 1806s. People forget that Chrysler used them for engine controls int he late 80s. There is also "refurb parts" of questionable quality and origin. Allison On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 1:56 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/17/19 9:30 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > An ad was emailed to me today with an interesting item: RCA 1802 > processors. > > Not a bad price, did you buy any? > Were they actually RCA-branded parts from the 70's? > > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 17 13:52:25 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 11:52:25 -0800 Subject: RCA 1802s available In-Reply-To: References: <2070155284.328690.1576603855623@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <83BAD6D1-990B-4B25-82E6-7399FEFB6A07@shiresoft.com> According to the website, they are ?genuine? original RCA parts. TTFN - Guy > On Dec 17, 2019, at 11:22 AM, crufta cat via cctalk wrote: > > They are likely later than the 70s and even more likely Intersil made parts > from > the 80s and even later. Same for 1806s. > > People forget that Chrysler used them for engine controls int he late 80s. > > There is also "refurb parts" of questionable quality and origin. > > Allison > > On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 1:56 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > >> >> >> On 12/17/19 9:30 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >>> An ad was emailed to me today with an interesting item: RCA 1802 >> processors. >> >> Not a bad price, did you buy any? >> Were they actually RCA-branded parts from the 70's? >> >> >> From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Dec 17 15:22:58 2019 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 13:22:58 -0800 Subject: Tapestar for DOS In-Reply-To: <002f01d5b1e0$de870940$9b951bc0$@net> References: <002f01d5b1e0$de870940$9b951bc0$@net> Message-ID: <66BA3534-26E2-432F-8977-F343756ABE33@gmail.com> Did not find it either, but if your tape has SCSI I used Overland Data?s Depot4 instead. Google it up, I uploaded it on archives.org. Marc > On Dec 13, 2019, at 10:12 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > > Can anyone please point me towards a copy of the Tapestar utility package > for DOS? I have already contacted Qualstar and they cannot help. TIA! > > -Ali > > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Dec 17 16:31:50 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:31:50 -0500 Subject: Bad heads on RL02: Worth replacing In-Reply-To: References: <7e3282ee-9dc5-cc67-3469-30022d510985@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <1ad828b2-1ecd-1423-f676-52b8bba0af7c@alembic.crystel.com> Interesting. Ok, then there is something interesting going on: The head was clean, the pack was clean and working (haven't tried it yet in the other RL02) and yet 1 second in there was a lot of debris on the leading edge of the head. Looks like it was taking off the top of the oxide layer on the disk as opposed to flying. Hm. On 12/17/2019 12:06 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/16/19 7:57 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> I'm wondering if the problem is the leading edge of the head is angled down or something: From the debris on the leading >> edge it's looking like it is digging into the pack. Not sure if this can be adjusted, or even what adjusting the head >> would be like. >> > > The characteristics of the head are not adjustable. > In my experience with 2315 packs, the top heads are the most prone to crashing. > You have to make sure the platter is absolutely clean, spinning at the right speed, and there is nothing on > the outer edge when the heads load. > > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Dec 17 16:22:11 2019 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 22:22:11 +0000 (WET) Subject: Tap, tap, tap, is this working??? In-Reply-To: References: <5520ac1a-4684-f115-90ec-59e8ea5441cc@iais.fraunhofer.de> <01RF1ZQTF0388X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> <01RF2YKH0XT48X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RF3J6FW7TW8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Allison wrote: > > I wonder of all the subscriber how many have posted something or anything > in > the last 6 month, year, ever? I suspect the never cases. > I've made about thirty postings to this list so far this year from this mailbox. If your theory is correct, I should be getting a whole bunch of spam now. I've received two spams (I found one that I missed earlier) and had one other spam filtered going to this mailbox since April 2019. Do you believe a non-posting subscriber could be targetting your email address with spam and not mine? > > Short term solution is use Gmail then run for a while and then kill it or > leave it to > as a bit bucket and replace with new Gmail. > Google sends legitimate mails (I don't send any other kind) from another email addresses of mine directly to the junk folders of (as far as I can tell, all) gmail recipients. These are people who have emailed me from their gmail addresses that I am replying to, people I have had correspondance with previously and people who have specified to Google that they want emails from me. I have asked such people to let me know why Google regards emails from the email address in question as spam so that I can address the problem in the event that it is at my end. Nobody so far has been able to extract this information from Google. I tell them that I don't understand why anyone uses an email service that systematically blocks them from receiving emails from particular email addresses and refuses to explain to them why they do it. I also keep telling them that gmail is worth every penny they pay for it but they just don't get it. At one time Google used to publish recommendations to avoid having emails inadvertently stopped by their antispam systems. At that time, I made sure that my mail server complied with all their recommendations. I've since tried to contact Google to ask them about this but I've had no success. Why should they talk to me if I'm not their customer? Especially when they won't even tell their actual customers why they are trapping emails for them? Google is not the solution, it's part of the problem. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 17 19:59:38 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:59:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tap, tap, tap, is this working??? In-Reply-To: <01RF3J6FW7TW8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> References: <5520ac1a-4684-f115-90ec-59e8ea5441cc@iais.fraunhofer.de> <01RF1ZQTF0388X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> <01RF2YKH0XT48X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> <01RF3J6FW7TW8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: >> I wonder of all the subscriber how many have posted something or >> anything in the last 6 month, year, ever? I suspect the never cases. Well, it is likely that if there is a subscriber harvesting, that that one is not posting. But there are so many that don't post that you need a way to narrow it down further. Automagically kicking out everybody who doesn't post doesn't seem like an appropriate action. When I Google a topic, I often get hits that are posts on this list. So, it is obviously possible to get posts from this list without subscribing. (Sometimes I get my own previous posts on the topic) I have always assumed that harvesting produced a list of addresses, probably a lot of smaller lists. For one type of spam, that with a forged FROM from a friend or associate, that an address is chosen, possibly randomly, possibly by other criteria such as frequency of posting, and used for the FROM, and another for the TO. Multiple smaller lists means that there is a high probability that the TO will recognize the FROM since they obviously have some contacts in common (well, at least the source of the list) and therefore the message is likely to get through. I find it amusing that on many/most lists, when it is known that there is such actions going on, people bombard the FROM with advice that THAT computer has been compromised and taken over to send spam, should immediately change passwords, etc. and refuse to believe that the FROM line of the spam has nothing to do with where it is coming from. People just won't accept that the FROM of an email is NOT necessarily the actual source of the email. If you print "1600 Pennsylvania Avenue" on the upper left of snail-mail envelopes, would they insist that somebody has hijacked the whitehouse mail-room? I find that SOME spam lists last forever. I still get quite a bit of spam for an address that I created temporarily for Comdex 2000. On Tue, 17 Dec 2019, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > I've made about thirty postings to this list so far this year from this > mailbox. If your theory is correct, I should be getting a whole bunch of > spam now. I've received two spams (I found one that I missed earlier) and > had one other spam filtered going to this mailbox since April 2019. Do you > believe a non-posting subscriber could be targetting your email address with > spam and not mine? They might have further filters, and target you less because they value your top-level domain (".ie") less. It is possible, but unlikely, that they may filter to such an extent that they think that Allison is a better qualified lead than you are? >> Short term solution is use Gmail then run for a while and then kill it >> or leave it to as a bit bucket and replace with new Gmail. A partial "solution" for those who can handle multiple email addresses, snd can run a "white-list" filter, would be to create an address that is ONLY for posts to and from this list. THEN, any mails that come to that address get filtered to only pass those that purport to come from this list. All others being put in a special "probably spam" folder. Glance at that folder periodicaally to retrieve any that are actually private messages sent by somebody on the list. Discarding that dedicated address periodically will lose few valid correspondents. That would be a valid use for a "white-list" filter. Other than that, I don't normally find "white-list" useful, because a significant part of the email that I get, such as about XenoCopy, is from people I have never encountered before. It would be insane suicide for a business to only accept contact from their prior contacts! Similarly, after my mother died, I got phone calls and emails from relatives I had never met. > At one time Google used to publish recommendations to avoid having emails > inadvertently stopped by their antispam systems. At that time, I made sure > that my mail server complied with all their recommendations. As did all spammers, so Google probably found it counter-productive to discuss their algorithms, and didn't know WHICH parts of their algorithms should be published V kept secret. > I've since tried to contact Google to ask them about this but I've had > no success. It probably went into the Google Tech Support department's spam folder. :-) Since this address is on PINE, I often forward emails that I want to look at, but that need a "modern" client (such as attachments, pictures, etc.) to my gmail address. A lot of those get sent to the spam folder of my gmail address. Marking them as "not spam", etc. hasn't helped to convince gmail that I don't consider anything from THIS other address of mine to be spam. So, they don't seem to have a white-list over-ride. I have to have that "modern" account for otherwise unreadable emails. A friend coming into town emailed me her Orbitz itinerary. Full of lots of ads and "of interest", and with pictures of text rather than text. While I was still affiliated with the college, one of the administrators, who insisted that we were more than adequately meeting the state mandates for computer literacy and information competency used to compose short text memos (such as meeting schedule change) on Word-Pervert, with different color horizontal lines, etc., print them out on a color printer on letterhead, feed them through a scanner, and attach them to a "FYI" email. Often, the horizontal lines were a couple of pixels off from being level. 15 years ago, some idiots started a company with similar name to mine, with a ".us" extension because I had the ".com" extension. 90+% of my incoming spam (half of which looks like it was legit offers and even actual correspondence) is address errors of stuff intended for them. > Google is not the solution, it's part of the problem. That's a given. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Dec 17 22:05:48 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 23:05:48 -0500 Subject: Bad heads on RL02: Worth replacing In-Reply-To: <1ad828b2-1ecd-1423-f676-52b8bba0af7c@alembic.crystel.com> References: <7e3282ee-9dc5-cc67-3469-30022d510985@alembic.crystel.com> <1ad828b2-1ecd-1423-f676-52b8bba0af7c@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Took a look at the top of the RL02 pack. There is a fine layer of white stuff on the disk in a ring at about where I would assume track 0 is on the thing. Wipes off with my finger, but definitely was not there when I put the pack in the drive. Also, looking at the head under a loupe I can see the head is not perfectly flat when viewed from the side. The front (ahead of the air gap/groove) with the magnetic head is narrower than the back of it. I'm wondering if the head is *worn* to the point where it can't fly, contacts the pack, and what I am seeing on the pack is the ceramic from the head (which would be nice, meaning it's not ripping the pack apart). Then again the black stuff on the head is probably the top layer of oxide from the pack. Do heads wear out? C From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Dec 17 23:22:59 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:22:59 -0800 Subject: Bad heads on RL02: Worth replacing In-Reply-To: References: <7e3282ee-9dc5-cc67-3469-30022d510985@alembic.crystel.com> <1ad828b2-1ecd-1423-f676-52b8bba0af7c@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <6560c74b-eff2-ca2c-908c-fa031d4be00a@jwsss.com> On 12/17/2019 8:05 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Took a look at the top of the RL02 pack. There is a fine layer of > white stuff on the disk in a ring at about where I would assume track > 0 is on the thing. Wipes off with my finger, but definitely was not > there when I put the pack in the drive. > > Also, looking at the head under a loupe I can see the head is not > perfectly flat when viewed from the side. The front (ahead of the air > gap/groove) with the magnetic head is narrower than the back of it. > I'm wondering if the head is *worn* to the point where it can't fly, > contacts the pack, and what I am seeing on the pack is the ceramic > from the head (which would be nice, meaning it's not ripping the pack > apart). Then again the black stuff on the head is probably the top > layer of oxide from the pack. > > Do heads wear out? > > C I don't believe there should be any contact to make any "wear" affect the head.? It may have been damaged if you're talking one of the heads you cleaned up.? But heads should never really contact the drive on these types of heads. I haven't posted earlier, but I had the same head technology on Microdata and Western Dynex drives.? Those had spring steel welded from the frame that attaches the positioner and the wires run out to the head via that arm. The thing I had happen was that in fiddling with the head, and cleaning it, one could flex the head mounting.? It was a very stiff probably stainless steel, but I suspect in cleaning efforts early on when I was working with the heads and drives I got hold of some which either I or someone prior had over flexed.? The clearance is so small that I think that tweek allows the head to look okay, but in actuality isn't flown in the proper orientation to stay clear of the media. I built a number of drives up from highly abused parts, and there were a lot of them, so got to play back then and learn.? Huge numbers of media, junk drives and the like. Once I got new heads the problems vanished.? Never did get a reliable way to ID a head as good, so I always had a non essential removable platter I'd fit the heads to and fly them to see if they caused damage.? If not, I'd move them to the fixed disk on the bottom of the positioner, and mount two more on the top that I'd vetted.? That saved the most media and heads. But unfortunately not good now days where media and heads are scarce, since it risks the media and heads. thanks Jim From skelly at bowerandbailey.co.uk Tue Dec 17 09:50:01 2019 From: skelly at bowerandbailey.co.uk (Sean Kelly) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 15:50:01 +0000 Subject: Zetaco SCSI Controller Message-ID: <37978A9E8350244898F2181BF0BBBD6976C04CA1@SV-EX02.bowerandbailey.co.uk> Hi, Would anyone happen to have or know the whereabouts of a technical manual and/or schematics for a Zetaco SCZ-2 controller? Or the same for any other Zetaco SCZ (hoping that they all used the same back-plane presentation :) ) Many thanks Sean (www.datageneral.uk) Bower & Bailey LLP Please don't reply to e-mails purporting to ask for our bank account details to be changed. 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Offices at: Banbury, Oxford, Swindon and Witney For further information please visit our website: www.bowerandbailey.co.uk From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Tue Dec 17 10:37:06 2019 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 11:37:06 -0500 Subject: Odd Symptom PDP 8e Running Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill, I am assuming you have done all the usual after a physical move of the system - reseated all the boards and whatever we called those green blocks on top of the board pairs, and cables - both ends. If not, that might be the hint the system is giving you. That is about all I can think of something more than 40 years since I trouble shot an /e/ bob On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 12:10 PM Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > > Hi - I am looking for some help. > > I have had a PDP 8e with RK05 drives that has run pretty reliably for many > years, but after moving it a strange symptom has come up, preventing it > from operating correctly. I am hoping someone can advise. > > Here is an example > > 1. Power up drives and PDP 8e > 2. Load OS/8 > 3. Load ADVENT > 4. Program loads, asks if I want instructions. I can enter Y or N and the > system responds. The familiar scrolling light pattern appears on the front > panel to indicate awaiting input > 5. As soon as I attempt an action such as "S" (with no quotes) the front > panel freezes and I have to CTRL+C to exit ADVENT, dumping me to the dot > prompt. > > Similar issue when running the MUSIC.SV program. I can load the program and > get up to the point of entering a song, but when I enter a song name the > system freezes on the first note. > > BASIC works fine however. Which tells me that I have a CPU problem, not a > RAM problem but this is just my hunch. > > Any ideas how to diagnose this? Running MAINDEC programs is always > frustrating. I am attempting to load the main DECX8 SYSTEM EXERCISER to see > if there are any clues from this as to the cause of the freezing system. > . > https://www.pdp8online.com/os/os8/os8_cmd.shtml#DECX8 > > Thanks > > Bill From jfehlinger at comcast.net Tue Dec 17 15:03:48 2019 From: jfehlinger at comcast.net (JAMES FEHLINGER) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 16:03:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Seeking information on the CSTS Timesharing service Message-ID: <1986478447.698995.1576616628327@connect.xfinity.com> On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 8:42 PM jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone have any information on Infonet, which was a timesharing > which CSC put out? I've got some info that it had a timesharing service > called CSTS and would like info on that. https://web.archive.org/web/20170421223052/https://wiki.cc.gatech.edu/folklore/index.php/The_UNIVAC_1100_in_the_Early_70s ------ Jerry Reich has brought to my attention the operating systems written by Computer Science Corporation (CSC) for its Infonet time-sharing network. In the late 1960s, CSC developed CSCX, which was a highly modified EXEC II [*] with time-sharing and multiprogramming capabilities. CSCX later evolved into the CSTS time-sharing system used on the Infonet 1100s throughout the 1970s. Commercial time-sharing networks were widespread during the 1960s and 1970s. ==== [*] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIVAC_EXEC_II ------ EXEC II is a discontinued operating system developed for the UNIVAC 1107 by Computer Sciences Corporation (CSC) while under contract to UNIVAC to develop the machine's COBOL compiler. They developed EXEC II because Univac's EXEC I operating system development was late. . . EXEC II is a batch processing operating system that supports a single job stream with concurrent spooling. ==== I have reason to believe that my very first exposure to digital computers (in the spring of 1969, at a high school in northern Delaware taking advantage of a Federal grant to equip a room with some teletype machines and acoustic couplers) was to "Conversational Fortran V" running on a Univac 1108 at Computer Sciences Corporation. Presumably the operating system was CSC's own modified version of Exec II (CSCX) rather than Exec 8, but I believe the Fortran V language processor would have been the same in either case. That taste of high-end timesharing was a luxurious experience, never to be repeated -- the following year, those same teletype machines were connected to an overloaded IBM 1130 at the University of Delaware running BASIC. http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED126934.pdf ------ Walzl, F. Neil The Development and Implementation of a District Computer Education Program. Final Report. Newark School District, Del. Nov 75 . . . During the 1968-69 school year, three major activities were conducted. . . Computer time was purchased from the Philco Ford Company, Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, and the Computer Sciences Corporation, Bala Cynwyd, Pennsylvania. . . ==== https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/why-python-best ------ For you Fortran folks, I need to explain Fortran V. Based on Fortran IV, Fortran V was implemented on Univac 1100-series hardware (and probably other Univac systems such as the 494) by Computer Sciences Corporation in the late 1960s. It extended Fortran to include parameter statements?basically a way to define constants, conditional compilation, and statement functions?basically macros that produced in-line code. In 1970, I went to work for Computer Sciences Corporation working on systems testing of a new timesharing system they were developing called CSTS. While some of my work was done in assembly language, the majority was done in Fortran V. For me, it was the "best scripting language" I had available. (It was also the only language I had available on CSTS itself for a while.) ==== From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 02:26:03 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 03:26:03 -0500 Subject: RCA 1802s available In-Reply-To: References: <2070155284.328690.1576603855623@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 2:55 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 12/17/19 9:30 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > An ad was emailed to me today with an interesting item: RCA 1802 processors. > > Not a bad price, did you buy any? Definitely a good buy if you don't need to go faster than 3.2MHz with +5V Vcc (I have at least one 1802 board with a socketed oscillator so I can use an NTSC colorburst crystal (3.579545 MHz) on a divide-by-2 to run at 1.7897725 MHz for use with a CDP1861 "Pixie" video chip, or swap that out for a 5Mhz or 6Mhz crystal for faster operation). The CDP1802BC can go up to 5MHz with a 10MHz oscillator on the same board. > Were they actually RCA-branded parts from the 70's? Curious to know too but I'd expect a Harris part just because of general availability. -ethan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Dec 18 08:37:33 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 09:37:33 -0500 Subject: Bad heads on RL02: Worth replacing In-Reply-To: <6560c74b-eff2-ca2c-908c-fa031d4be00a@jwsss.com> References: <7e3282ee-9dc5-cc67-3469-30022d510985@alembic.crystel.com> <1ad828b2-1ecd-1423-f676-52b8bba0af7c@alembic.crystel.com> <6560c74b-eff2-ca2c-908c-fa031d4be00a@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > I don't believe there should be any contact to make any "wear" affect > the head.? It may have been damaged if you're talking one of the heads > you cleaned up.? But heads should never really contact the drive on > these types of heads. Thanks Jim: The problem was happening before I removed the head, and the symptoms (ring of white dust on the disk) has been going on for awhile so I don't think it was the cleaning that threw it out of alignment. I took a set of watch calipers to the head this morning to see if I could measure the head width front to back (where front is the part of the head closest to the spindle and back is the part of the head furthest). Without removing the head from the head arm it's tricky to measure, but it's pretty clear that the ceramic on the rear of the head is thicker than the ceramic on the front of the head. Which would make sense if it was dragging, as the ceramic would be worn down by the pressure of the arm spring pushing down more on the front than back. Once the head is angled it probably will not fly. The next question and the really fun one is if the magnetic bar and loops that are embedded in the ceramic are above the level of the ceramic head. Ceramic on disk would leave wear, but I'll bet that steel of the magnet would carve a nice trench. I'll try to take a picture this evening but in the meantime unless someone says that a wedge shaped head is "normal" I'm flagging this one as bad. Thank you for the write-up below. Amazing stuff... C > > I haven't posted earlier, but I had the same head technology on > Microdata and Western Dynex drives.? Those had spring steel welded from > the frame that attaches the positioner and the wires run out to the head > via that arm. > > The thing I had happen was that in fiddling with the head, and cleaning > it, one could flex the head mounting.? It was a very stiff probably > stainless steel, but I suspect in cleaning efforts early on when I was > working with the heads and drives I got hold of some which either I or > someone prior had over flexed.? The clearance is so small that I think > that tweek allows the head to look okay, but in actuality isn't flown in > the proper orientation to stay clear of the media. > > I built a number of drives up from highly abused parts, and there were a > lot of them, so got to play back then and learn.? Huge numbers of media, > junk drives and the like. > > Once I got new heads the problems vanished.? Never did get a reliable > way to ID a head as good, so I always had a non essential removable > platter I'd fit the heads to and fly them to see if they caused damage. > If not, I'd move them to the fixed disk on the bottom of the positioner, > and mount two more on the top that I'd vetted.? That saved the most > media and heads. > > But unfortunately not good now days where media and heads are scarce, > since it risks the media and heads. > > thanks > Jim From w9gb at icloud.com Wed Dec 18 13:31:37 2019 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 13:31:37 -0600 Subject: RCA 1802s available Message-ID: Harris still manufactures the RCA/Intersil/Harris 1802 processor. I do not know if the Silicon on Sapphire (SoS) process versions (Sandia Labs, radiation hardened) are still used by DoD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA_1802 Alltronics Harris CDP1802ACE (3.2 MHz, 5 Volts) $4.95 https://www.alltronics.com//cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=CDP1802ACE Harris CDP1852CE, Parallel, 8-bit, PIO : $3.95 https://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=CDP1852CE Intersil CDP1802 Spec Sheet (1997) https://www.alltronics.com/alltronics_assets/acrobat/CDP1802ACE.pdf Lee Hart sells the Bare PC boards for his 1802 Membership Card. Josh Bensadon has ELF-LINK for parallel port control/access http://www.sunrise-ev.com/1802.htm For the 40th anniversary, in 2016, VCF Midwest hosted the VCF ?COSMIC ELF project? with generous donations of time and materials by Lee A. Hart, Josh Bensadon, Ed Keefe, Dave Ruske, Walter Miraglia, Chuck Yakym, Bill Rowe, and Norm Nelson; and to our many advisors and volunteer builders. http://www.sunrise-ev.com/vcf-elf.htm After 18 years, Dave Ruske announced in October that maintenance of the Cosmic ELF group (cosmic elf.com) is being assumed by Josh Bensadon. http://www.cosmacelf.com/news/new-cosmac-elf-group-owner.html greg, w9gb chicago == Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 11:30:55 -0600 (CST) From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RCA 1802s available An ad was emailed to me today with an interesting item: RCA 1802 processors. I thought there may be some folks here interested: https://www.bgmicro.com/9z1509.aspx Not affiliated in any way other than a customer. Will == From ucespamdump at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 14:46:57 2019 From: ucespamdump at gmail.com (crufta cat) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 15:46:57 -0500 Subject: Tap, tap, tap, is this working??? In-Reply-To: <01RF3J6FW7TW8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> References: <5520ac1a-4684-f115-90ec-59e8ea5441cc@iais.fraunhofer.de> <01RF1ZQTF0388X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> <01RF2YKH0XT48X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> <01RF3J6FW7TW8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Peter, Its not a google issue in any way or form. Never mind. If this address starts getting trash not of the list then I will kill this account and not unsub, and create a new replacement and subscribe with that one. Allison I either have to take up Klingon or tray a different language On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 6:53 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Allison wrote: > > > > I wonder of all the subscriber how many have posted something or anything > > in > > the last 6 month, year, ever? I suspect the never cases. > > > > I've made about thirty postings to this list so far this year from this > mailbox. If your theory is correct, I should be getting a whole bunch of > spam now. I've received two spams (I found one that I missed earlier) and > had one other spam filtered going to this mailbox since April 2019. Do you > believe a non-posting subscriber could be targetting your email address > with > spam and not mine? > > > > > Short term solution is use Gmail then run for a while and then kill it or > > leave it to > > as a bit bucket and replace with new Gmail. > > > > Google sends legitimate mails (I don't send any other kind) from another > email > addresses of mine directly to the junk folders of (as far as I can tell, > all) > gmail recipients. These are people who have emailed me from their gmail > addresses that I am replying to, people I have had correspondance with > previously and people who have specified to Google that they want emails > from > me. I have asked such people to let me know why Google regards emails from > the email address in question as spam so that I can address the problem in > the event that it is at my end. Nobody so far has been able to extract > this > information from Google. I tell them that I don't understand why anyone > uses > an email service that systematically blocks them from receiving emails from > particular email addresses and refuses to explain to them why they do it. > I also keep telling them that gmail is worth every penny they pay for it > but they just don't get it. > > At one time Google used to publish recommendations to avoid having emails > inadvertently stopped by their antispam systems. At that time, I made sure > that my mail server complied with all their recommendations. I've since > tried to contact Google to ask them about this but I've had no success. > Why > should they talk to me if I'm not their customer? Especially when they > won't > even tell their actual customers why they are trapping emails for them? > Google is not the solution, it's part of the problem. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From ucespamdump at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 14:52:03 2019 From: ucespamdump at gmail.com (crufta cat) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 15:52:03 -0500 Subject: RCA 1802s available In-Reply-To: References: <2070155284.328690.1576603855623@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: Ethan, I've used parts with 1976 date code at 4mhz and higher. Later part with early 80s date codes and intersils part have been over clocked to well over 8mhz and many. I have a few mid 80s part that have given no issues at 5mhz though it never occurred to me to push further. I recently got a few 1806s that clock at 8mhz without issues. I always thought they were low but never pushed. When I did they ran a bit quite faster than expected.. Allison On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 3:26 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 2:55 AM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > On 12/17/19 9:30 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > An ad was emailed to me today with an interesting item: RCA 1802 > processors. > > > > Not a bad price, did you buy any? > > Definitely a good buy if you don't need to go faster than 3.2MHz with > +5V Vcc (I have at least one 1802 board with a socketed oscillator so > I can use an NTSC colorburst crystal (3.579545 MHz) on a divide-by-2 > to run at 1.7897725 MHz for use with a CDP1861 "Pixie" video chip, or > swap that out for a 5Mhz or 6Mhz crystal for faster operation). The > CDP1802BC can go up to 5MHz with a 10MHz oscillator on the same board. > > > Were they actually RCA-branded parts from the 70's? > > Curious to know too but I'd expect a Harris part just because of > general availability. > > -ethan > From ucespamdump at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 14:55:09 2019 From: ucespamdump at gmail.com (crufta cat) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 15:55:09 -0500 Subject: RCA 1802s available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also to that list add.... https://groups.io/g/cosmacelf/topics There I still a large amount of activity with 1802 based system including the progenitor the GRED/System-00 a ttl/CMOS SSI/MSI mix. On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 3:41 PM Gregory Beat via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Harris still manufactures the RCA/Intersil/Harris 1802 processor. > I do not know if the Silicon on Sapphire (SoS) process versions (Sandia > Labs, radiation hardened) are still used by DoD. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA_1802 > > Alltronics > Harris CDP1802ACE (3.2 MHz, 5 Volts) $4.95 > https://www.alltronics.com//cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=CDP1802ACE > Harris CDP1852CE, Parallel, 8-bit, PIO : $3.95 > https://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=CDP1852CE > > Intersil CDP1802 Spec Sheet (1997) > https://www.alltronics.com/alltronics_assets/acrobat/CDP1802ACE.pdf > > Lee Hart sells the Bare PC boards for his 1802 Membership Card. > Josh Bensadon has ELF-LINK for parallel port control/access > http://www.sunrise-ev.com/1802.htm > > For the 40th anniversary, in 2016, VCF Midwest hosted the VCF ?COSMIC ELF > project? with generous donations of time and materials by Lee A. Hart, Josh > Bensadon, Ed Keefe, Dave Ruske, Walter Miraglia, Chuck Yakym, Bill Rowe, > and Norm Nelson; and to our many advisors and volunteer builders. > http://www.sunrise-ev.com/vcf-elf.htm > > After 18 years, Dave Ruske announced in October that maintenance of the > Cosmic ELF group (cosmic elf.com) is being assumed by Josh Bensadon. > http://www.cosmacelf.com/news/new-cosmac-elf-group-owner.html > > greg, w9gb > chicago > == > Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 11:30:55 -0600 (CST) > From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RCA 1802s available > > An ad was emailed to me today with an interesting item: RCA 1802 > processors. > I thought there may be some folks here interested: > https://www.bgmicro.com/9z1509.aspx > > Not affiliated in any way other than a customer. > > Will > == > > From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 16:43:53 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 14:43:53 -0800 Subject: ISO: Service info for an ADDS Envoy 580 Message-ID: Got me an ADDS Envoy 580 (at least, I'm pretty sure it is -- it has no model designation apart from "Envoy" but looks identical to Jim's pictures at http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/05/adds-envoy-portable-terminal.html ). It's non-functional at the moment so it's going to need some repairs, and I can't find much on it -- anyone have anything? Thanks, Josh From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Wed Dec 18 17:13:20 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 17:13:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: 8048 Family Applications Handbook Message-ID: <1820559747.367788.1576710800564@email.ionos.com> Hi All, I have a copy of this Intel book, 8048 Family Applications Handbook, January 1980. Does anyone know if scans of this book are online anywhere? I did a quick Google search and didn't find this particular book. If it isn't available anywhere I would like to get it scanned and posted somewhere (bitsavers?), but the only way I have to do a decent scan is destructive. A picture of the cover is here: http://wrcooke.net/DSC01633.JPG Thanks, Will "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.org From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Dec 18 19:23:20 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 20:23:20 -0500 Subject: Bad heads on RL02: Worth replacing In-Reply-To: References: <7e3282ee-9dc5-cc67-3469-30022d510985@alembic.crystel.com> <1ad828b2-1ecd-1423-f676-52b8bba0af7c@alembic.crystel.com> <6560c74b-eff2-ca2c-908c-fa031d4be00a@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <3fb5b0fb-0138-749e-02bc-d82bb00c6d22@alembic.crystel.com> Pulled the air filter on this unit. Completely plugged with brown/black junk, I can't believe much air was going through. So it's possible that the heads were in a partial vacuum and couldn't fly? Off to find a fresh RL02 filter from Amazon. :-) C On 12/18/2019 9:37 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> I don't believe there should be any contact to make any "wear" affect >> the head.? It may have been damaged if you're talking one of the heads >> you cleaned up.? But heads should never really contact the drive on >> these types of heads. > > Thanks Jim: The problem was happening before I removed the head, and the > symptoms (ring of white dust on the disk) has been going on for awhile > so I don't think it was the cleaning that threw it out of alignment. > > I took a set of watch calipers to the head this morning to see if I > could measure the head width front to back (where front is the part of > the head closest to the spindle and back is the part of the head > furthest). Without removing the head from the head arm it's tricky to > measure, but it's pretty clear that the ceramic on the rear of the head > is thicker than the ceramic on the front of the head. > > Which would make sense if it was dragging, as the ceramic would be worn > down by the pressure of the arm spring pushing down more on the front > than back. Once the head is angled it probably will not fly. > > The next question and the really fun one is if the magnetic bar and > loops that are embedded in the ceramic are above the level of the > ceramic head. Ceramic on disk would leave wear, but I'll bet that steel > of the magnet would carve a nice trench. > > I'll try to take a picture this evening but in the meantime unless > someone says that a wedge shaped head is "normal" I'm flagging this one > as bad. > > Thank you for the write-up below. Amazing stuff... > > C > >> >> I haven't posted earlier, but I had the same head technology on >> Microdata and Western Dynex drives.? Those had spring steel welded >> from the frame that attaches the positioner and the wires run out to >> the head via that arm. >> >> The thing I had happen was that in fiddling with the head, and >> cleaning it, one could flex the head mounting.? It was a very stiff >> probably stainless steel, but I suspect in cleaning efforts early on >> when I was working with the heads and drives I got hold of some which >> either I or someone prior had over flexed.? The clearance is so small >> that I think that tweek allows the head to look okay, but in actuality >> isn't flown in the proper orientation to stay clear of the media. >> >> I built a number of drives up from highly abused parts, and there were >> a lot of them, so got to play back then and learn.? Huge numbers of >> media, junk drives and the like. >> >> Once I got new heads the problems vanished.? Never did get a reliable >> way to ID a head as good, so I always had a non essential removable >> platter I'd fit the heads to and fly them to see if they caused >> damage. If not, I'd move them to the fixed disk on the bottom of the >> positioner, and mount two more on the top that I'd vetted.? That saved >> the most media and heads. >> >> But unfortunately not good now days where media and heads are scarce, >> since it risks the media and heads. >> >> thanks >> Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 18 19:26:20 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 17:26:20 -0800 Subject: 8048 Family Applications Handbook In-Reply-To: <1820559747.367788.1576710800564@email.ionos.com> References: <1820559747.367788.1576710800564@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On 12/18/19 3:13 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > Hi All, > I have a copy of this Intel book, 8048 Family Applications Handbook, January 1980. Does anyone know if scans of this book are online anywhere? let me dig around, I'm sure I have a copy somewhere From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Wed Dec 18 19:40:01 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 19:40:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: 8048 Family Applications Handbook In-Reply-To: References: <1820559747.367788.1576710800564@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <544938632.429934.1576719601928@email.ionos.com> > On December 18, 2019 at 7:26 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > let me dig around, I'm sure I have a copy somewhere Thanks! If you don't I would be happy to send this to you for scanning, or scan it myself. But if I do it I will have to dismantle it. Not sure if you would have to do the same. "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.org From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 19:41:58 2019 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 20:41:58 -0500 Subject: FW: [GreenKeys] DURA Selectric ASR terminals free References: <84110692-842d-0aa2-fcca-51d1afc1547f@tubetestingpros.com> <112301d5b318$03c189a0$0b449ce0$@gmail.com> <5DF6DF60.1060908@pico-systems.com> <97ccf38de0a919b9bd82161ae7087edc.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <7FB0D94AF35A4224AE6ADBF3EF9FBD68@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Malikoff via cctalk" To: "Jon Elson" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 9:15 PM Subject: Re: FW: [GreenKeys] DURA Selectric ASR terminals free >> On 12/15/2019 01:19 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >>> I wonder if there is any interest here... >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: greenkeys-bounces at mailman.qth.net On Behalf Of John Lawson >>> Sent: 10 December 2019 17:41 >>> To: greenkeys at mailman.qth.net >>> Subject: [GreenKeys] DURA Selectric ASR terminals free >>> >>> >>> Greetings List! >>> >>> I have a couple of "DURA" Selectric ASR terminals. I also have some limited documentation on them. Neither of them work as far as I know. I tried to run the one in the pic when I first got it, but it's jammed - so on the shelf it went. >>> >>> They appear to be an 8-level code, dunno if ASCII, EBCDIC, or what. >> The punched tape is EIA, I think. There are diode matrices >> to convert to the internal Selectric code of rotation and >> tilt of the ball. I had one of these hooked to a CP/M >> system back around 1980, I used it exclusively as a printer. >> >> I could likely dig out some code that sent the data to >> them. A quick look did not turn up the interface. >> I seem to recall it had some pretty weird logic levels, PNP >> Germanium transistors, etc. >> >> It is possible to trip too many solenoids at one time and >> command the rotate or tilt summing levers to exceed the >> limits of the ball. That will break bands on the carriage. >> I had no problem getting replacement parts when I had that >> happen on mine. Not too sure Selectric parts are available >> anymore. >> >> Jon >> >> >>> These are joining the ever-expanding list of "Projects Never to be Completed", so if anyone is interested, lemme know. >>> >>> They are free, you pay shipping, they are about 50 pounds each and will require some thoughtful packing. >>> >>> Local pickup is happily offered, and I could possibly be bribed into delivering them within a day's drive of Carson City (weather permitting). >>> >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> John KB6SCO >>> >>> Carson City > > Interfacing the Dura 1041 is very well covered in the book 'THE SELECTRIC INTERFACE A Hands-on Approach' by George Young. > There are whole chapters on the Dura 1041 printer, encoding the Dura eyboard, interfacting the punch, tape reader and more. > > Steve. I've got a copy of that book somewhere in case anyone's interested. m From jason at smbfc.net Thu Dec 19 00:03:27 2019 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 22:03:27 -0800 Subject: FW: [GreenKeys] DURA Selectric ASR terminals free In-Reply-To: <112301d5b318$03c189a0$0b449ce0$@gmail.com> References: <84110692-842d-0aa2-fcca-51d1afc1547f@tubetestingpros.com> <112301d5b318$03c189a0$0b449ce0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7b3dab82-0749-14e0-ae96-490482abe99f@smbfc.net> I've been looking for a Selectric terminal for some time.? Sadly, I'm not really in driving distance to Carson City. --Jason On 12/14/19 11:19 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > I wonder if there is any interest here... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: greenkeys-bounces at mailman.qth.net On Behalf Of John Lawson > Sent: 10 December 2019 17:41 > To: greenkeys at mailman.qth.net > Subject: [GreenKeys] DURA Selectric ASR terminals free > > > Greetings List! > > I have a couple of "DURA" Selectric ASR terminals. I also have some limited documentation on them. Neither of them work as far as I know. I tried to run the one in the pic when I first got it, but it's jammed - so on the shelf it went. > > They appear to be an 8-level code, dunno if ASCII, EBCDIC, or what. > > These are joining the ever-expanding list of "Projects Never to be Completed", so if anyone is interested, lemme know. > > They are free, you pay shipping, they are about 50 pounds each and will require some thoughtful packing. > > Local pickup is happily offered, and I could possibly be bribed into delivering them within a day's drive of Carson City (weather permitting). > > > Cheers > > John KB6SCO > > Carson City > From useddec at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 19:22:16 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 19:22:16 -0600 Subject: Odd Symptom PDP 8e Running Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It doesn't sound like a drive problem, but I always recommend doing the servo adjustments after moving a RK05. Do not do the head alignment. On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 11:10 AM Bill Degnan via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi - I am looking for some help. > > I have had a PDP 8e with RK05 drives that has run pretty reliably for many > years, but after moving it a strange symptom has come up, preventing it > from operating correctly. I am hoping someone can advise. > > Here is an example > > 1. Power up drives and PDP 8e > 2. Load OS/8 > 3. Load ADVENT > 4. Program loads, asks if I want instructions. I can enter Y or N and the > system responds. The familiar scrolling light pattern appears on the front > panel to indicate awaiting input > 5. As soon as I attempt an action such as "S" (with no quotes) the front > panel freezes and I have to CTRL+C to exit ADVENT, dumping me to the dot > prompt. > > Similar issue when running the MUSIC.SV program. I can load the program > and > get up to the point of entering a song, but when I enter a song name the > system freezes on the first note. > > BASIC works fine however. Which tells me that I have a CPU problem, not a > RAM problem but this is just my hunch. > > Any ideas how to diagnose this? Running MAINDEC programs is always > frustrating. I am attempting to load the main DECX8 SYSTEM EXERCISER to see > if there are any clues from this as to the cause of the freezing system. > . > https://www.pdp8online.com/os/os8/os8_cmd.shtml#DECX8 > > Thanks > > Bill > From ucespamdump at gmail.com Thu Dec 19 09:29:00 2019 From: ucespamdump at gmail.com (crufta cat) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 10:29:00 -0500 Subject: 8048 Family Applications Handbook In-Reply-To: References: <1820559747.367788.1576710800564@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: Intel has it on their history site for download. I have it too but I am not giving it up. ;) On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 8:45 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/18/19 3:13 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have a copy of this Intel book, 8048 Family Applications Handbook, > January 1980. Does anyone know if scans of this book are online anywhere? > > let me dig around, I'm sure I have a copy somewhere > > > From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Thu Dec 19 09:45:54 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 09:45:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: 8048 Family Applications Handbook In-Reply-To: References: <1820559747.367788.1576710800564@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <1857924556.391648.1576770354481@email.ionos.com> > On December 19, 2019 at 9:29 AM crufta cat via cctech wrote: > > Intel has it on their history site for download. > I have it too but I am not giving it up. ;) I have the paper copy, but I'm trying to get an electronic copy. I can't seem to find the Intel download site. Do you have a link? Thanks! "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.org From cliendo at gmail.com Fri Dec 20 14:22:50 2019 From: cliendo at gmail.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 15:22:50 -0500 Subject: Chuck Peddle passed away Message-ID: https://www.team6502.org/ This was on the Team 6502 facebook page ==================================================================== I just received an email from Bill Mensch that Chuck Peddle has died. He died on December 15. Chuck Peddle was one of the team of eight Motorola employees and engineers who worked on the 6800 microprocessor and left the company for MOS Technology in 1974 along with Harry Bawcom, Wil Mathys, Rod Orgill, Ray Hirt, Mike Janes, Terry Holdt, and Bill Mensch. Peddle considered the $300 price point of the 6800 a disadvantage, and urged Motorola management to pursue a more affordable microprocessor that could be used in a wider array of applications. When they refused, Peddle convinced seven other Motorola employees, including my father Terry Holdt, to pack up their homes and move across the country to begin work on what would become the 6502 microprocessor at MOS Technology, a wafer-fab company in Valley Forge, PA founded by a former colleague of his from General Electric, John Paivinen. After Commodore Business Machines purchased MOS Technology in 1976, Peddle oversaw the creation of the Commodore PET computer, the predecessor of the Commodore 64, the best-selling personal computer of all time. While curating the information for the team6502.org website, one of my favorite anecdotes comes from MOS Technology employee, Frank Slattery, who wrote: "What a great bunch of guys the Motorola eight were. I was the manager of the layout people and it was my duty to make sure that the Motorola eight had every opportunity to do their design work with no problems. I was standing next to Chuck Peddle when he said to Jack Tramiel, the CEO of Commodore Business Machines, 'With this chip we can build a personal computer.' It was the first time I ever heard the words, 'Personal Computer.'" The rest, as they say, is history... Chuck was one of the giants of the personal computing industry. Now he belongs to the ages. From roelof_klaas at yahoo.com Fri Dec 20 14:41:56 2019 From: roelof_klaas at yahoo.com (Roland) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 20:41:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Nixdorf computer AG boards rechner 154 References: <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731@mail.yahoo.com> Hello everyone, I've got these Nixdorf boards since recently. Does anyone know to what kind of machine this belongs? The word "Kernspeicher" clearly points to magnetic core memory. And when I look to the amount of power transistors it seems to be 12 bit. I really wonder from what kind of machine these were. The boards date from early seventies... And I wonder if anyone could actually use them to repair such a machine. Regards, Roland Some pictures of the boards on VCFED: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?72836-Nixdorf-computer-AG-boards-rechner-154 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Dec 20 14:53:32 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 14:53:32 -0600 Subject: Nixdorf computer AG boards rechner 154 In-Reply-To: <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: weird nixdorf is the last name of my boss whos in his 70's engineered lime plants around north america for what became greymont On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 2:42 PM Roland via cctech wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I've got these Nixdorf boards since recently. Does anyone know to what > kind of machine this belongs? The word "Kernspeicher" clearly points to > magnetic core memory. And when I look to the amount of power transistors it > seems to be 12 bit. I really wonder from what kind of machine these were. > The boards date from early seventies... > > And I wonder if anyone could actually use them to repair such a machine. > > Regards, Roland > Some pictures of the boards on VCFED: > > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?72836-Nixdorf-computer-AG-boards-rechner-154 > > > > > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Dec 20 20:36:14 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 20:36:14 -0600 Subject: Nixdorf computer AG boards rechner 154 In-Reply-To: References: <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5DFD851E.8000302@pico-systems.com> On 12/20/2019 02:53 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctech wrote: > weird nixdorf is the last name of my boss whos in his 70's engineered lime > plants around north america for what became greymont > > No, Nixdorf was a significant player in the computer business in Europe, especially. Wikipedia says they were the 4th largest computer maker in Europe at one time. Jon From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Dec 20 22:57:18 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 20:57:18 -0800 Subject: Nixdorf computer AG boards rechner 154 In-Reply-To: <5DFD851E.8000302@pico-systems.com> References: <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731@mail.yahoo.com> <5DFD851E.8000302@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 12/20/19 6:36 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > On 12/20/2019 02:53 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctech wrote: >> weird nixdorf is the last name of my boss whos in his 70's engineered >> lime >> plants around north america for what became greymont >> >> > No, Nixdorf was a significant player in the computer business in Europe, > especially. > Wikipedia says they were the 4th largest computer maker in Europe at one > time. Nixdorf was eaten by Siemens 1990 to form Siemens Nixdorf Informationssysteme (SNI). I worked for SNI in Munich in 1991-92 porting SVR4 (branded as SINIX) to a new 386-based multiprocessor system they were developing. I heard there was a MIPS-based system that used the same chassis under development at what had been Nixdorf in Paderborn. alan From ed at groenenberg.net Sat Dec 21 05:00:16 2019 From: ed at groenenberg.net (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 12:00:16 +0100 (CET) Subject: Nixdorf computer AG boards rechner 154 In-Reply-To: References: <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731@mail.yahoo.com> <5DFD851E.8000302@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <51914.83.128.128.49.1576926016.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/20/19 6:36 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: >> On 12/20/2019 02:53 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctech wrote: >>> weird nixdorf is the last name of my boss whos in his 70's engineered >>> lime >>> plants around north america for what became greymont >>> >>> >> No, Nixdorf was a significant player in the computer business in Europe, >> especially. >> Wikipedia says they were the 4th largest computer maker in Europe at one >> time. > > Nixdorf was eaten by Siemens 1990 to form Siemens Nixdorf > Informationssysteme (SNI). > > I worked for SNI in Munich in 1991-92 porting SVR4 (branded as SINIX) to > a new 386-based multiprocessor system they were developing. I heard > there was a MIPS-based system that used the same chassis under > development at what had been Nixdorf in Paderborn. > > alan > > That would have been the 'Targon 35' It was almost identical to a Pyramid system, both in HW and SW architecture. We had one of these machines and we could use the software released for Pyramid on it without any issues. AFAIK, there was even some sort of oartnership between the 2 companies. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta 😆 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 21 09:32:40 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 09:32:40 -0600 Subject: Nixdorf computer AG boards rechner 154 In-Reply-To: References: <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731@mail.yahoo.com> <5DFD851E.8000302@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: eww siemens destroyer of good products On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 10:57 PM Alan Perry via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 12/20/19 6:36 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > > On 12/20/2019 02:53 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctech wrote: > >> weird nixdorf is the last name of my boss whos in his 70's engineered > >> lime > >> plants around north america for what became greymont > >> > >> > > No, Nixdorf was a significant player in the computer business in Europe, > > especially. > > Wikipedia says they were the 4th largest computer maker in Europe at one > > time. > > Nixdorf was eaten by Siemens 1990 to form Siemens Nixdorf > Informationssysteme (SNI). > > I worked for SNI in Munich in 1991-92 porting SVR4 (branded as SINIX) to > a new 386-based multiprocessor system they were developing. I heard > there was a MIPS-based system that used the same chassis under > development at what had been Nixdorf in Paderborn. > > alan > > > From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sat Dec 21 13:42:39 2019 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 13:42:39 -0600 Subject: Value of Altair 8800b References: Message-ID: Trying to figure out a fair value for the following: Altair 8800b with two Altair floppy drives. System is clean but hasn't been turned on since the 70s. No software or manuals available. Contains the follow boards: 1 CPU 2 Floppy disk controller 3 MITS 16k dynamic memory boards (48k ram total) 1 MITS 8800 Disk BD1 Rev 0 x4 1 SIO board with 2 serial ports 1 MITS 8800 PMC Rev01 2k Prom Board Can reply off list. Thanks. David From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Dec 21 13:49:22 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 19:49:22 +0000 Subject: Value of Altair 8800b In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/21/19 2:42 PM, David Williams via cctalk wrote: > Trying to figure out a fair value for the following: > > Altair 8800b with two Altair floppy drives. System is clean but hasn't > been turned on since the 70s. No software or manuals available. Contains > the follow boards: > > 1 CPU > 2 Floppy disk controller > 3 MITS 16k dynamic memory boards (48k ram total) > 1 MITS 8800 Disk BD1 Rev 0 x4 > 1 SIO board with 2 serial ports > 1 MITS 8800 PMC Rev01 2k Prom Board > > Can reply off list. > > Thanks. > > David I am sure more than I could afford. I have wanted one of those ever since I read the original article in Popular Electronics. bill From ucespamdump at gmail.com Sat Dec 21 14:12:41 2019 From: ucespamdump at gmail.com (crufta cat) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 15:12:41 -0500 Subject: Value of Altair 8800b In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The 8800B is not the same as the original Altair 8800. No Idea of value. I happen to have an early 8800 (low SN), and a 8800BT nd the only thing they have in common s 8080 CPU (entirely different board), S100, andmade by MITS. Allison On Sat, Dec 21, 2019 at 2:49 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/21/19 2:42 PM, David Williams via cctalk wrote: > > Trying to figure out a fair value for the following: > > > > Altair 8800b with two Altair floppy drives. System is clean but hasn't > > been turned on since the 70s. No software or manuals available. Contains > > the follow boards: > > > > 1 CPU > > 2 Floppy disk controller > > 3 MITS 16k dynamic memory boards (48k ram total) > > 1 MITS 8800 Disk BD1 Rev 0 x4 > > 1 SIO board with 2 serial ports > > 1 MITS 8800 PMC Rev01 2k Prom Board > > > > Can reply off list. > > > > Thanks. > > > > David > > I am sure more than I could afford. I have wanted one of those > ever since I read the original article in Popular Electronics. > > bill > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 21 15:23:44 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 16:23:44 -0500 Subject: Value of Altair 8800b In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 21, 2019 at 3:13 PM crufta cat via cctalk wrote: > The 8800B is not the same as the original Altair 8800. No Idea of value. > > I happen to have an early 8800 (low SN), and a 8800BT nd the only thing > they > have in common s 8080 CPU (entirely different board), S100, andmade by > MITS. > > Allison > On Sat, Dec 21, 2019 at 2:49 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 12/21/19 2:42 PM, David Williams via cctalk wrote: > > > Trying to figure out a fair value for the following: > > > > > > Altair 8800b with two Altair floppy drives. System is clean but hasn't > > > been turned on since the 70s. No software or manuals available. > Contains > > > the follow boards: > > > > > > 1 CPU > > > 2 Floppy disk controller > > > 3 MITS 16k dynamic memory boards (48k ram total) > > > 1 MITS 8800 Disk BD1 Rev 0 x4 > > > 1 SIO board with 2 serial ports > > > 1 MITS 8800 PMC Rev01 2k Prom Board > > > > > > Can reply off list. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > David > > > > Other than completeness, a key factor is how close a particular system is to booting up to a monitor prompt or disk OS. With the disk controller set that adds to the value. I'd insure if shipping as you describe it for $2000. Unknown operational condition is a factor, you really should find a way to safely test, otherwise assume it does not work not the other way around. Odds are the system will need restoration. Bill From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Dec 21 17:12:56 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 18:12:56 -0500 Subject: RL02 repair, thoughts on storage Message-ID: <430172ae-df3f-cce4-93b4-ae77957a4f4e@alembic.crystel.com> So I got the third RL02 out of the shed this afternoon and after cleaning the outside I brought it in to disassemble and check out. Being in an outdoor shed for 15 years is not good for technology, I could see debris behind the front panel and just knew that mice had gotten into the unit. The question is how far... Taking it apart gave me some clues. On the positive side there was no infestations or dirt/debris/anything past the absolute air filter. As a bonus, the filter was very clean and there was no debris past the motor air impeller. This is good, and it gives me a clean air filter with which to test the other drive to see if the heads will fly (my other drive had a 100% clogged filter. I need to take some pics) Bad news is I can see mouse debris down the four tubes on the intake. It looks like they made a little house under the power supply, which is where the intake is to the high pressure air system. So I think I'm going to be pulling the whole AC/DC power supply out and do a major cleaning.... Hopefully they did not chew the wires. Never dull. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Dec 21 18:30:16 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 00:30:16 +0000 Subject: Looking at a Youtube video Message-ID: It is called The History of the Personal Computer part 2 He goes to the Xerox building to find the first graphic interface. He walks around and then stops an puts his hand on a Dioblo 30 hard disk drive. I think he might have missed something. Dwight From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 22 08:58:48 2019 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 14:58:48 -0000 Subject: VAXmate Technical Reference Manual Volume 2 Message-ID: <001501d5b8d8$51722720$f4567560$@ntlworld.com> I have a POST error on my VAXmate, which I think is related to the hard disk. I get error codes 81 or 82 depending on whether my MFM emulator is running or not. I suspect the hard disk controller itself may be faulty, because I don't see much activity on the MFM emulator itself (it is the David Gesswein one). >From the table of contents in Volume 1 of the Technical Reference Manual it looks like the error codes might be in Volume 2. Only Volume 1 appears to be available online, does anyone have Volume 2, ideally scanned, or failing that, who can tell me what those codes mean? Thanks Rob From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Dec 22 09:48:04 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 10:48:04 -0500 Subject: RL02 head replacement, disk back online Message-ID: So after looking at the mess the mice had made of my third RL02 drive I decided it would probably be better to pull the heads and put them in my second drive (the one with the bad top head and plugged filter). Getting heads out was simple, and I decided to put them side to side with the heads in drive 2. The following images show some interesting details. https://i.imgur.com/tcmkUmO.jpg Note that O is original (the heads from drive 2) and the top heads are from drive 3. First, the heads on the third drive were in pretty good shape and looked clean. Under the loupe though I could see some fragments of gunk that needed to be removed. More importantly I did a side view comparison between the bad top head in #2 and the top head in #3: https://i.imgur.com/D6HOxND.jpg This was a really tough picture to take, and you have to zoom in on the heads in the upper right. But what you can clearly see here is that the better head from #3 (left one) is pretty much rectangle shaped while the crashing head from #2 (right one) is shaped like a wedge, with the top part being narrower than the bottom. https://i.imgur.com/fEGuOFE.jpg And of course the filter removed from #2. Note the silicon sludge, I think this is 100% blocked (and was why the drive made a lot of air/wind noises when spun up, the fan was cavitating) This sums it up: I think what happened is the unit was run in a very dirty environment, the absolute air filter plugged up, and the heads don't fly as well without that blast of clean air coming in. So they dragged on the disk, and the ceramic rubbed off (and onto the packs) which led to the eventual disk damage. Moral: Change filters. I cleaned up the #3 heads, put the heads from #3 into unit #2, put the air filter from #3 into #2, and fired it up with the test pack. Goes to ready no problem, will do a full dir/bad with RT11 later this afternoon to see if I still have two errors on the pack. It is interesting to note that the bottom head from drive 2 didn't look too bad, and did not pick up any dirt/oxide from the disk after I replaced the filter. It was probably flying very close to the platter but had just enough airflow to make it fly. Still, I'll put it in the spares pile and think about it for awhile... Otherwise, back in business. I'll be checking the filter on #1 just to be on the safe side. It was my RL02 drive from 30 years ago and was not one of the Solarex ones. Then I'll put fixing this third RL02 on the calendar (will need new wiring, long ribbon cable, filter, heads, and a massive clean-up inside), and start working on restoring my darn RSX11M 4.2 disk packs... From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sun Dec 22 12:37:19 2019 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 19:37:19 +0100 Subject: Nixdorf computer AG boards rechner 154 In-Reply-To: References: <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <751560113aea7d22441f901064986e2ee37886b3.camel@agj.net> fre 2019-12-20 klockan 14:53 -0600 skrev Adrian Stoness via cctalk: > weird nixdorf is the last name of my boss whos in his 70's engineered > lime > plants around north america for what became greymont > > On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 2:42 PM Roland via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > Heinz Nixdorf founded the Nixdorf firm which later changed name into Nixdorf AG. This is one of the parts of the Wirtschaftswunder. Heinz N died in 1986 while on the CeBit messe so he basically died on the footplate. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sun Dec 22 12:37:19 2019 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 19:37:19 +0100 Subject: Nixdorf computer AG boards rechner 154 In-Reply-To: References: <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <751560113aea7d22441f901064986e2ee37886b3.camel@agj.net> fre 2019-12-20 klockan 14:53 -0600 skrev Adrian Stoness via cctalk: > weird nixdorf is the last name of my boss whos in his 70's engineered > lime > plants around north america for what became greymont > > On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 2:42 PM Roland via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > Heinz Nixdorf founded the Nixdorf firm which later changed name into Nixdorf AG. This is one of the parts of the Wirtschaftswunder. Heinz N died in 1986 while on the CeBit messe so he basically died on the footplate. From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Sun Dec 22 11:43:43 2019 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 11:43:43 -0600 Subject: RL02 head replacement, disk back online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It actually looks like the spring on the "wedge" shaped / crashed head has been bent, which would be a problem... --tom On 12/22/19 9:48 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > So after looking at the mess the mice had made of my third RL02 drive I decided it would probably > be better to pull the heads and put them in my second drive (the one with the bad top head and > plugged filter). > > Getting heads out was simple, and I decided to put them side to side with the heads in drive 2. > The following images show some interesting details. > > https://i.imgur.com/tcmkUmO.jpg > > Note that O is original (the heads from drive 2) and the top heads are from drive 3. > > First, the heads on the third drive were in pretty good shape and looked clean. Under the loupe > though I could see some fragments of gunk that needed to be removed. More importantly I did a side > view comparison between the bad top head in #2 and the top head in #3: > > https://i.imgur.com/D6HOxND.jpg > > This was a really tough picture to take, and you have to zoom in on the heads in the upper right. > But what you can clearly see here is that the better head from #3 (left one) is pretty much > rectangle shaped while the crashing head from #2 (right one) is shaped like a wedge, with the top > part being narrower than the bottom. > > https://i.imgur.com/fEGuOFE.jpg > > And of course the filter removed from #2. Note the silicon sludge, I think this is 100% blocked > (and was why the drive made a lot of air/wind noises when spun up, the fan was cavitating) > > This sums it up: I think what happened is the unit was run in a very dirty environment, the > absolute air filter plugged up, and the heads don't fly as well without that blast of clean air > coming in. So they dragged on the disk, and the ceramic rubbed off (and onto the packs) which led > to the eventual disk damage. > > Moral: Change filters. I cleaned up the #3 heads, put the heads from #3 into unit #2, put the air > filter from #3 into #2, and fired it up with the test pack. Goes to ready no problem, will do a > full dir/bad with RT11 later this afternoon to see if I still have two errors on the pack. > > It is interesting to note that the bottom head from drive 2 didn't look too bad, and did not pick > up any dirt/oxide from the disk after I replaced the filter. It was probably flying very close to > the platter but had just enough airflow to make it fly. Still, I'll put it in the spares pile and > think about it for awhile... > > Otherwise, back in business. I'll be checking the filter on #1 just to be on the safe side. It was > my RL02 drive from 30 years ago and was not one of the Solarex ones. Then I'll put fixing this > third RL02 on the calendar (will need new wiring, long ribbon cable, filter, heads, and a massive > clean-up inside), and start working on restoring my darn RSX11M 4.2 disk packs... > From joezatarski at gmail.com Sun Dec 22 15:15:21 2019 From: joezatarski at gmail.com (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 15:15:21 -0600 Subject: WTB: wire wrap tools Message-ID: <7de389dd-af51-53f8-7606-25fe4ee76964@gmail.com> I'm looking to pick up a set of at least some hand tools for wire wrap, though I'm interested in wrap guns/bits as well. I'm specifically looking for hand tools for 26awg wire, as well as 22 and 24awg. I already have a hand tool for 30awg. Mainly interested in tools for .045" square posts rather than the .025" for those sizes of wire. These tools were commonly used for telephony wire wrap. I'm interested in those sizes for wrap guns as well, but additionally would be interested in 30awg/.025" post bits as well. I'm not entirely opposed to 26awg/.025" post, but that seems like a bit thick of wire for that size post, IMO. Feel free to contact me on or off list. Best Regards, Joe Zatarski From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Dec 23 00:44:03 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 22:44:03 -0800 Subject: Nixdorf computer AG boards rechner 154 In-Reply-To: <51914.83.128.128.49.1576926016.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2128273072.1283077.1576874516731@mail.yahoo.com> <5DFD851E.8000302@pico-systems.com> <51914.83.128.128.49.1576926016.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <6d143625-0010-f809-a284-2e65fc545656@snowmoose.com> On 12/21/19 3:00 AM, Ed Groenenberg via cctech wrote: > > Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 12/20/19 6:36 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: >>> On 12/20/2019 02:53 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctech wrote: >>>> weird nixdorf is the last name of my boss whos in his 70's engineered >>>> lime >>>> plants around north america for what became greymont >>>> >>>> >>> No, Nixdorf was a significant player in the computer business in Europe, >>> especially. >>> Wikipedia says they were the 4th largest computer maker in Europe at one >>> time. >> >> Nixdorf was eaten by Siemens 1990 to form Siemens Nixdorf >> Informationssysteme (SNI). >> >> I worked for SNI in Munich in 1991-92 porting SVR4 (branded as SINIX) to >> a new 386-based multiprocessor system they were developing. I heard >> there was a MIPS-based system that used the same chassis under >> development at what had been Nixdorf in Paderborn. > > That would have been the 'Targon 35' It was almost identical to a Pyramid > system, both in HW and SW architecture. We had one of these machines and > we could use the software released for Pyramid on it without any issues. > AFAIK, there was even some sort of oartnership between the 2 companies. Eventually Siemens bought Pyramid. After that the hardware side of Siemens merged with Fujitsu. The architecture of the system that we were working on was described as the same as another system with Multibus being replaced with Multibus II, but I don't recall what that other system was. alan From gerardcjat at free.fr Mon Dec 23 05:52:42 2019 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 12:52:42 +0100 Subject: FS : Diablo 630 Print Wheels ( x4 ) Message-ID: <2c89ce11-f95d-8e59-b440-d4e34a46676c@free.fr> Any Diablo 630 printer owners around ? You might be interested by : lot of 4 daisy wheels, one sligtly damaged ? $20 https://www.ebay.fr/itm/274154371418?ul_noapp=true Not affiliated??? etc ....... From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Mon Dec 23 09:27:48 2019 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 16:27:48 +0100 Subject: First Internet message and ... In-Reply-To: References: <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com> <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net> <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net> <1a0a87e7-42b6-ee4f-c79f-8f33bbd1e9c5@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <8badd42ed465bef264fd464d0defe23b13ca26c5.camel@agj.net> tis 2019-11-26 klockan 19:16 -0800 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk: > Good point. > > Some companies that COULD HAVE been the leaders made great > inventions > and/or engineering, and then fumbled the marketing. > > I'm thinking that Xerox Parc could be said to have "invented" the > next > generation of personal computers, but did they ever cash in on that? > I can visualize a Apple/Microsoft argument, "But we stole it FIRST!" > (like English/French/Spanish in America) > Regarding XEROX, i think that the project was to large for them to do while having a proprietary mindset (we want to design the whole stack, except some applications but we want to design the main one TOO.) This included seeing Ethernet as a proprietary technology which could be used to lock out the competition, Which turned out to be a tall order. From technoid6502 at gmail.com Mon Dec 23 12:11:45 2019 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 13:11:45 -0500 Subject: First Internet message and ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 2019-12-23 at 12:00 -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Re: First Internet message and ... I read the caselaw in the GUI war cases of the 80's. Microsoft and apple were battling over features and everyone else was being weighed. There are nice comparative tables, TOS/GEM vs OS/2, vs Amiga, vs, Windows..... Vs. Smalltalk. The Xerox btw, comes out ahead of everyone. Jeff From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 23 15:22:16 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 14:22:16 -0700 Subject: First Internet message and ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1b00d244-21b0-a5fc-50ef-df9be484b2c5@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/23/2019 11:11 AM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 2019-12-23 at 12:00 -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> Re: First Internet message and ... > > I read the caselaw in the GUI war cases of the 80's. Microsoft and > apple were battling over features and everyone else was being weighed. > There are nice comparative tables, TOS/GEM vs OS/2, vs Amiga, vs, > Windows..... Vs. Smalltalk. > > The Xerox btw, comes out ahead of everyone. Niklaus Wirth is still around, so his Better Software* is still around. https://inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/index.html > Jeff > Ben. *He has better hardware too. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 23 16:13:22 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 14:13:22 -0800 Subject: First Internet message and ... In-Reply-To: <1b00d244-21b0-a5fc-50ef-df9be484b2c5@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1b00d244-21b0-a5fc-50ef-df9be484b2c5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <60cfcec5-5734-767a-aff2-3db860e5a19b@bitsavers.org> > Niklaus Wirth is still around and your hero, Bucky Beaver(*) spent a year at PARC while Mesa was under development and went to Stanford so it didn't spring fully formed from him * i will leave it as an excercise for the reader why he has that nickname and where "Bucky Bits" come from From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Dec 23 16:46:02 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 14:46:02 -0800 Subject: 4K memory board Message-ID: <9788574f-0e45-6a9e-92b9-7c6653bd88fe@jwsss.com> I'm curious if anyone recognizes the system this board went to. Has an? E with a circle spot and a CM-8 badge on the carrier board. A core board on the carrier is probably a 4k board made by Standard Memories, Santa Ana, CA. I put up photos of the board on my toy blog. https://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2019/12/4k-or-8k-core-board.html From jonelson126 at gmail.com Mon Dec 23 20:07:20 2019 From: jonelson126 at gmail.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 20:07:20 -0600 Subject: 4K memory board In-Reply-To: <9788574f-0e45-6a9e-92b9-7c6653bd88fe@jwsss.com> References: <9788574f-0e45-6a9e-92b9-7c6653bd88fe@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5E0172D8.1010100@email.wustl.edu> On 12/23/2019 04:46 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > I'm curious if anyone recognizes the system this board went to. > > Has an E with a circle spot and a CM-8 badge on the carrier board. > > A core board on the carrier is probably a 4k board made by Standard > Memories, Santa Ana, CA. > > I put up photos of the board on my toy blog. > > https://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2019/12/4k-or-8k-core-board.html > > > The connectors remind me of Data General, but the boards look like the wrong form factor. Can you tell the number of data bits? Might be pulse transformers for each inhibit/sense wire. Jon From cym224 at gmail.com Wed Dec 25 10:04:34 2019 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 11:04:34 -0500 Subject: First Internet message and ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 23/12/2019, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 2019-12-23 at 12:00 -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> Re: First Internet message and ... > > I read the caselaw in the GUI war cases of the 80's. Microsoft and > apple were battling over features and everyone else was being weighed. > There are nice comparative tables, TOS/GEM vs OS/2, vs Amiga, vs, > Windows..... Vs. Smalltalk. Would you have the citations handy? I would be interested to read that. N. > > The Xerox btw, comes out ahead of everyone. > > Jeff From brain at jbrain.com Wed Dec 25 12:11:24 2019 From: brain at jbrain.com (brain at jbrain.com) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 12:11:24 -0600 Subject: ORNL ORACLE story References: <9cdb40ac-feb5-4c7e-a092-0e9e91cd8b53@Spark> Message-ID: <781df051-3b43-4fa5-bc13-234db3aa2c84@Spark> https://www.computerworld.com/article/3490398/no-silent-night.html?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Title%3A%20No%20silent%20night&utm_campaign=Computerworld%20Daily%20Shark&utm_term=Editorial%20-%20Daily%20Shark&utm_date=20191225180749 Jim From ethan at 757.org Wed Dec 25 12:45:14 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 13:45:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for Voyetra Plus II or III Message-ID: Looking for an old midi sequencer called Voyetra Sequencer. The Gold version for DOS is all over the internet, which was a later version. I have a Yamaha C1 laptop now running after repairs, and from the demo disk another collector published I have the MIDI driver for Voyetra Sequencer Plus. But the driver I have from the demo disk is too old for the Gold version of the software. Looking for Voyetra Plus II or III. The increase in number matches the increase in allowed number of channels. Any leads appreciated. -- : Ethan O'Toole From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 25 13:55:04 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 11:55:04 -0800 Subject: ORNL ORACLE story In-Reply-To: <781df051-3b43-4fa5-bc13-234db3aa2c84@Spark> References: <9cdb40ac-feb5-4c7e-a092-0e9e91cd8b53@Spark> <781df051-3b43-4fa5-bc13-234db3aa2c84@Spark> Message-ID: <9f55ceab-7634-7254-2eab-64190533c8e8@bitsavers.org> https://computerhistory.org/blog/jingle-bits-auditory-maintenance-whirlwind-holiday-songs-the-dawn-of-computer-music/ From nw.johnson at ieee.org Wed Dec 25 14:09:36 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 15:09:36 -0500 Subject: ORNL ORACLE story In-Reply-To: <9f55ceab-7634-7254-2eab-64190533c8e8@bitsavers.org> References: <9cdb40ac-feb5-4c7e-a092-0e9e91cd8b53@Spark> <781df051-3b43-4fa5-bc13-234db3aa2c84@Spark> <9f55ceab-7634-7254-2eab-64190533c8e8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8df07b72-b384-b6ca-2609-a4e092399708@ieee.org> Love those old sounds on an AM radio.? One day, I was working on a ham project in the CFRB radio engineering workshop in Toronto. It was just after Kilobaud magazine had published a program that would play Valda's theme (Somewhere My LOve) on an AM radio next to a Motorola MEK6800D2.? We had toggled it in and were playing with it? when the evening show man walked by. "What's that," said Carl Banas to the station engineer, Paul. "The guys are playing with computer music," said Paul. "Get me a cart of it and I will put it on the air," said Carl. So I phoned all my friends so they could hear our club repeater controller prototype play music on a major market radio station! He played it for a few seconds than faded in to the fully-orchestrated version! cheers, Nigel On 25/12/2019 14:55, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > https://computerhistory.org/blog/jingle-bits-auditory-maintenance-whirlwind-holiday-songs-the-dawn-of-computer-music/ > > > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 25 14:32:20 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 12:32:20 -0800 Subject: ORNL ORACLE story In-Reply-To: <8df07b72-b384-b6ca-2609-a4e092399708@ieee.org> References: <9cdb40ac-feb5-4c7e-a092-0e9e91cd8b53@Spark> <781df051-3b43-4fa5-bc13-234db3aa2c84@Spark> <9f55ceab-7634-7254-2eab-64190533c8e8@bitsavers.org> <8df07b72-b384-b6ca-2609-a4e092399708@ieee.org> Message-ID: Do any recordings exist of the CDC machines playing "Anchors Aweigh"? The use of printers and tape drives impressed the heck out of me. The cleverness of the speaker on the CDC 1604 was noteworthy. --Chuck From web at loomcom.com Wed Dec 25 16:17:52 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 14:17:52 -0800 Subject: Wanted: 3B2/1000 login! Message-ID: Hi folks, Maybe a long shot, but does anyone have a 3B2/1000 running SVR 3.2.3 that I could get an account on? Specifically, I need one with a compiler installed. There's a publicly accessible one at the Living Computer Museum, but unfortunately there are no compilers or assemblers installed on it at all :( I'm working on adding 3B2/1000 support to my 3B2 emulator, and need to run some tests against a real one to be sure my behavior is correct. All the best, -Seth -- Seth Morabito web at loomcom.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 25 20:04:22 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 21:04:22 -0500 Subject: Wanted: 3B2/1000 login! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is there a tutor user? On Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:18 PM Seth Morabito via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi folks, > > Maybe a long shot, but does anyone have a 3B2/1000 running SVR 3.2.3 > that I could get an account on? Specifically, I need one with a compiler > installed. There's a publicly accessible one at the Living Computer > Museum, but unfortunately there are no compilers or assemblers installed > on it at all :( > > I'm working on adding 3B2/1000 support to my 3B2 emulator, and need to > run some tests against a real one to be sure my behavior is correct. > > All the best, > > -Seth > -- > Seth Morabito > web at loomcom.com > From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Thu Dec 26 08:25:01 2019 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 09:25:01 -0500 Subject: First Internet message Message-ID: I?m not familiar with U.S. law but didn?t Xerox ?own? the patent(s) to GUI technology? Again to my knowledge Microsoft and Apple both ?appropriated? and/or ?misapproriated?, depending on your point-of-view, this exact technology! Does commercial-use, read profit, subsume legal rights eventually in the U.S. and I suppose elsewhere in the capitalist world? Given what has happened in the past 45 yrs. or so, and the almost equal value of Microsoft and Apple(determined by the stock exchange), has the marketplace prevailed? Have we the consumer benefited the most or more accurately the 2 richest high-tech, transnational corporations? Happy computing - and best wishes for a prosperous New Year for all. Murray ? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 26 11:23:15 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 09:23:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: First Internet message In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And, a Happy Humbug to you, too! Fleas Navy Dad and Yo new huevo! spellling? > I^@^Ym not familiar with U.S. law but didn^@^Yt Xerox ^@^Xown^@^Y the > patent(s) t$ technology? Again to my knowledge Microsoft and Apple both > ^@^Xappropriated^@^Y and/or ^@^Xmisapproriated^@^Y, depending on your > point-of-view, this exact technology! Xerox took the position that ideas like that were not patentable, and could not be hoarded for financial gain. It is not clear to me whether that was a truly altruistic position, or a tacit acknowledgement that it was resistance is futile. ______________________ | | ________|_____/\/\/\/\/\/\_____|__________ RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! > Does commercial-use, read profit, subsume legal rights > eventually in the U.S. and I suppose elsewhere in the capitalist world? Not OFFICIALLY. However, those with more money have more and better lawyers. "Justice is not for sale". But it can be bought. > Given what has happened in the past 45 yrs. or so, and the almost equal > value of Microsoft and Apple(determined by the stock exchange), has the > marketplace prevailed? Have we the consumer benefited the most or more > accurately the 2 richest high-tech, transnational corporations? Wouldn't it be nice if we, the consumer, would benefit? Apple, having copied the technology brought legal actions against Microsoft and Digital Research (GEM). Apple and Microsoft made some unpublicized deal(s). Maybe I'm cynical, ("MAYBE??!?") but I interpret it as "We stole it FIRST" (much like the battles between the european interests over America). Xerox did not assert ownership of the ideas. Analogously, a story from the usual unreliable source: In 1946, "It's A Wonderful Life" seemed to be a failure at the box office. In 28 years (the duration of USA copyright in those days), 1974, it hadn't even broken even, so they didn't bother to renew the copyright, although they said that that was due to "a paperwork snafu". BTW, Disney et al lobbied for extremely extended copyright duration; the motto of the intellectual property lawyers is "Don't mess with the mouse!". When "It's A Wonderful Life" became public domain, independent TV stations and small networks had a grand opportunity to have something that they could play without royalties. So, they played it. A LOT. It saturated the playlists. The public got used to it, and it became "a Christmas Tradition". It became the most popular home video of all time (even more than porn) In 1993, Republic Pictures cited Steward V Abend (SCROTUS 1990), and re-acquired the sound rights, and re-asserted ownership of the picture! So, now that the movie was an enormous success, the TV stations HAD to continue the holiday tradition, but now had to pay royalties! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Thu, 26 Dec 2019, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > I???m not familiar with U.S. law but didn???t Xerox ???own??? the patent(s) to GUI > technology? Again to my knowledge Microsoft and Apple both ???appropriated??? > and/or ???misapproriated???, depending on your point-of-view, this exact > technology! Does commercial-use, read profit, subsume legal rights > eventually in the U.S. and I suppose elsewhere in the capitalist world? > Given what has happened in the past 45 yrs. or so, and the almost equal > value of Microsoft and Apple(determined by the stock exchange), has the > marketplace prevailed? Have we the consumer benefited the most or more > accurately the 2 richest high-tech, transnational corporations? > > > Happy computing - and best wishes for a prosperous New Year for all. > > > > Murray ??? From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Dec 26 16:09:14 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:09:14 -0500 Subject: First Internet message In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A2FA7EF-4900-4B49-8977-BA8A653C498B@comcast.net> > On Dec 26, 2019, at 12:23 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > And, a Happy Humbug to you, too! > Fleas Navy Dad and Yo new huevo! spellling? > > >> I^@^Ym not familiar with U.S. law but didn^@^Yt Xerox ^@^Xown^@^Y the patent(s) t$ technology? Again to my knowledge Microsoft and Apple both ^@^Xappropriated^@^Y and/or ^@^Xmisapproriated^@^Y, depending on your point-of-view, this exact technology! > > Xerox took the position that ideas like that were not patentable, and could not be hoarded for financial gain. It is not clear to me whether that was a truly altruistic position, or a tacit acknowledgement that it was resistance is futile. The rules have changed over time. Whether that's by bureaucratic fiat or by changes to the law I'm not sure. For example, at one point software wasn't considered patentable, which meant Rivest, Shamir, and Adleman had to twist themselves into some contortions to patent the RSA algorithm. It was done by describing it as a device, I think. Not long afterwards, software patents became possible. The Xerox work may have been in the earlier period. Some companies weren't as serious about patents as others; I worked for a startup around 1997 that didn't care to patent anything, which was really rather stupid of them. But large companies like Xerox do tend to understand their options here. paul From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Dec 26 17:25:00 2019 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (null) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:25:00 -0600 Subject: Wanted: 3B2/1000 login! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Obviously, I will take care of you on this. Sent from NeXTMail > On Dec 25, 2019, at 16:18, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > > ?Hi folks, > > Maybe a long shot, but does anyone have a 3B2/1000 running SVR 3.2.3 > that I could get an account on? Specifically, I need one with a compiler > installed. There's a publicly accessible one at the Living Computer > Museum, but unfortunately there are no compilers or assemblers installed > on it at all :( > > I'm working on adding 3B2/1000 support to my 3B2 emulator, and need to > run some tests against a real one to be sure my behavior is correct. > > All the best, > > -Seth > -- > Seth Morabito > web at loomcom.com From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri Dec 27 08:07:59 2019 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 15:07:59 +0100 Subject: First Internet message In-Reply-To: <6A2FA7EF-4900-4B49-8977-BA8A653C498B@comcast.net> References: <6A2FA7EF-4900-4B49-8977-BA8A653C498B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4d202cb22b81de250540632c957846f402a4c6dc.camel@agj.net> tor 2019-12-26 klockan 17:09 -0500 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk: > > On Dec 26, 2019, at 12:23 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > And, a Happy Humbug to you, too! > > Fleas Navy Dad and Yo new huevo! spellling? > > > > > > > I^@^Ym not familiar with U.S. law but didn^@^Yt Xerox ^@^Xown^@^Y > > > the patent(s) t$ technology? Again to my knowledge Microsoft and > > > Apple both ^@^Xappropriated^@^Y and/or ^@^Xmisapproriated^@^Y, > > > depending on your point-of-view, this exact technology! > > > > Xerox took the position that ideas like that were not patentable, > > and could not be hoarded for financial gain. It is not clear to me > > whether that was a truly altruistic position, or a tacit > > acknowledgement that it was resistance is futile. > > The rules have changed over time. Whether that's by bureaucratic > fiat or by changes to the law I'm not sure. > > For example, at one point software wasn't considered patentable, > which meant Rivest, Shamir, and Adleman had to twist themselves into > some contortions to patent the RSA algorithm. It was done by > describing it as a device, I think. Not long afterwards, software > patents became possible. The Xerox work may have been in the earlier > period. > > Some companies weren't as serious about patents as others; I worked > for a startup around 1997 that didn't care to patent anything, which > was really rather stupid of them. But large companies like Xerox do > tend to understand their options here. > > paul Patent's is an invention in itself, including the idea that you can hit someone on their head (or threaten them with shutting them out of of trading with you or your allies) until they agrees to accept your idea of what a patent is and what is patented. It is political idea which is necessary in an industrialised world while it is a a not so liberal idea. Remember the navigation laws and how they could be used against someone ? The british government used navigation laws against indian cotton and weaving industry in the 1700 and 1800s so that Manchester woven cotton and wool became cheaper on the world market than indian products even in india. American controlled media today decides what is viewable on the world markets cinemas - producers of american controlled film productions pays cinema owners to get their films showed (and preventing the competitiors.) From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 27 09:55:53 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 10:55:53 -0500 Subject: Two dead LK201 keyboards Message-ID: <8F31F9C2-1842-4A3B-839A-EB2A9CCC6BDE@comcast.net> Gentlepeople, I'm doing some work with my Pro 380 over the holidays, but have run into a snag because both my LK201 keyboards are dead. They fail poweron self test -- LEDs stay on and no response to any keypresses. The odd thing is that the circuit board itself seems ok; I had a spare board that tests fine by itself, so I installed it as a replacement control board on one of those keyboards and now it fails. So that suggests there's something wrong with the key array that breaks selftest. I don't understand that because the documentation says a stuck key would produce a selftest pass along with an indication reporting stuck key. And while I know LK201 keyboards don't like spilled liquids, one of those keyboards definitely hasn't been abused that way and I don't see signs the other one has, either. So having both fail the same way is puzzling. Any ideas? I'm considering building a PC keyboard LK201 emulation, should be a fairly simple bit of Arduino code. paul From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Dec 27 12:46:37 2019 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 18:46:37 +0000 (WET) Subject: Two dead LK201 keyboards In-Reply-To: <8F31F9C2-1842-4A3B-839A-EB2A9CCC6BDE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01RFH7RD00ME8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Paul Koning wrote: > > Gentlepeople, > > I'm doing some work with my Pro 380 over the holidays, but have run into a > snag because both my LK201 keyboards are dead. They fail poweron self test > -- LEDs stay on and no response to any keypresses. > > The odd thing is that the circuit board itself seems ok; I had a spare board > that tests fine by itself, so I installed it as a replacement control board > on one of those keyboards and now it fails. So that suggests there's > something wrong with the key array that breaks selftest. > > I don't understand that because the documentation says a stuck key would > produce a selftest pass along with an indication reporting stuck key. And > while I know LK201 keyboards don't like spilled liquids, one of those > keyboards definitely hasn't been abused that way and I don't see signs the > other one has, either. So having both fail the same way is puzzling. > > Any ideas? > I wonder what happens if several keys are stuck/shorted? It might also be good to check if the microprocessor (8051?) is running. (I've got at least two or three LK201 keyboards that are all acting erratically :-( I'm not sure I have any good ones left.) > > I'm considering building a PC keyboard LK201 emulation, should be a fairly > simple bit of Arduino code. > Supplies of good non-USB PC keyboards are probably beginning to get harder to find now too... Regards, Peter Coghlan. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 27 13:38:33 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 14:38:33 -0500 Subject: Two dead LK201 keyboards In-Reply-To: <01RFH7RD00ME8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RFH7RD00ME8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: > On Dec 27, 2019, at 1:46 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > Paul Koning wrote: >> ... >> I'm considering building a PC keyboard LK201 emulation, should be a fairly >> simple bit of Arduino code. > > Supplies of good non-USB PC keyboards are probably beginning to get harder > to find now too... True. It could use either kind of keyboard. Also, USB to mini-DIN adapters are still sold ($5 in the current L-Com catalog). That seems like a cheaper solution than a USB Host shield. paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Dec 27 14:10:47 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 12:10:47 -0800 Subject: Two dead LK201 keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <01RFH7RD00ME8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: > > Supplies of good non-USB PC keyboards are probably beginning to get harder > > to find now too... > > True. It could use either kind of keyboard. Also, USB to mini-DIN adapters are still sold ($5 in the current L-Com catalog). That seems like a cheaper solution than a USB Host shield. > If you mean one of these, they are just passive adapters that only work if the USB keyboard (or mouse) is capable of supporting both USB and PS/2 interfaces. http://www.l-com.com/usb-usb-adapter-type-a-female-mini-din-6-male I imagine the majority of cheap disposable keyboards manufactured now are USB only devices, not combination USB - PS/2 compatible devices From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Dec 27 14:23:36 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 21:23:36 +0100 Subject: Two dead LK201 keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <01RFH7RD00ME8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20191227202332.GA25778@tau1.ceti.pl> On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 02:38:33PM -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Dec 27, 2019, at 1:46 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > > Paul Koning wrote: > >> ... > >> I'm considering building a PC keyboard LK201 emulation, should be a fairly > >> simple bit of Arduino code. > > > > Supplies of good non-USB PC keyboards are probably beginning to get harder > > to find now too... > > True. It could use either kind of keyboard. Also, USB to mini-DIN > adapters are still sold ($5 in the current L-Com catalog). That > seems like a cheaper solution than a USB Host shield. It should work in theory. In practice, I have bought me some keyboards: - Genesis Thor 300 TKL Blue - the cheapest mech I could find and my first mech, BTW - Genesis Rhod 110 - so called "gaming keyboard" Both are usb keyboards. I would like to use them as ps/2, including going through two adapters in serial (usb->ps/2, ps/2->usb, and this stuck into usb port of my desktop). Why so strangely, well, when I connect keyboard, I would like it to behave like a keyboard, not some kind of a hub. So serially connected adaoters are perhaps the cheapest way I can enforce my way. Back to subject. It appears that Thor does not implelement ps/2 on itself, which means I could not connect it as ps/2 keyboard. Rhod implements, so when connected to the same adapter(s) it showed up in my logs as a proper kb. Of course, when I plug Thor straight into usb of my desktop, it shows up in the logs, too. But this is not how I want to boot my computer. In a future, I would expect keyboards to drop ps/2 part of their personality, in which case cheap adapters will not help. What would be required, I think, is something with full usb host on one end and din plug on the other, with software translating between the two. Cheap usb kbds are probably on the other side already, while "gamer" kbds I would expect to hold on for a bit longer. Quite a few players are naysayers and claim usb kbds are too slow to play, so they only can play on ps/2 kbds, connected to ps/2 socket. Thanks God for first person shooters, but this will only last as long as there are gaming 'puters with ps/2 onboard. So, now a good question is, are there any usb->ps/2 adapters which have usb host on them? Sure, they will cost more than simple electric switch kind of adapter, but if not very costly then I might prefer those to building one myself (which would take me a loooong time, given current experience). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From useddec at gmail.com Fri Dec 27 18:43:48 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 18:43:48 -0600 Subject: Two dead LK201 keyboards In-Reply-To: <8F31F9C2-1842-4A3B-839A-EB2A9CCC6BDE@comcast.net> References: <8F31F9C2-1842-4A3B-839A-EB2A9CCC6BDE@comcast.net> Message-ID: Do you have a known good cable you can swap out? On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 9:56 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Gentlepeople, > > I'm doing some work with my Pro 380 over the holidays, but have run into a > snag because both my LK201 keyboards are dead. They fail poweron self test > -- LEDs stay on and no response to any keypresses. > > The odd thing is that the circuit board itself seems ok; I had a spare > board that tests fine by itself, so I installed it as a replacement control > board on one of those keyboards and now it fails. So that suggests there's > something wrong with the key array that breaks selftest. > > I don't understand that because the documentation says a stuck key would > produce a selftest pass along with an indication reporting stuck key. And > while I know LK201 keyboards don't like spilled liquids, one of those > keyboards definitely hasn't been abused that way and I don't see signs the > other one has, either. So having both fail the same way is puzzling. > > Any ideas? > > I'm considering building a PC keyboard LK201 emulation, should be a fairly > simple bit of Arduino code. > > paul > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 27 19:42:54 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 20:42:54 -0500 Subject: Two dead LK201 keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <8F31F9C2-1842-4A3B-839A-EB2A9CCC6BDE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <520B2652-F4CB-4A0D-9708-753876D0DE34@comcast.net> Yes, but given that the control PCB worked properly by itself, and stopped working when attached to the key array, it doesn't seem to be a cable issue. paul > On Dec 27, 2019, at 7:43 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > Do you have a known good cable you can swap out? > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 9:56 AM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > Gentlepeople, > > I'm doing some work with my Pro 380 over the holidays, but have run into a snag because both my LK201 keyboards are dead. They fail poweron self test -- LEDs stay on and no response to any keypresses. > > The odd thing is that the circuit board itself seems ok; I had a spare board that tests fine by itself, so I installed it as a replacement control board on one of those keyboards and now it fails. So that suggests there's something wrong with the key array that breaks selftest. > > I don't understand that because the documentation says a stuck key would produce a selftest pass along with an indication reporting stuck key. And while I know LK201 keyboards don't like spilled liquids, one of those keyboards definitely hasn't been abused that way and I don't see signs the other one has, either. So having both fail the same way is puzzling. > > Any ideas? > > I'm considering building a PC keyboard LK201 emulation, should be a fairly simple bit of Arduino code. > > paul > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 27 19:46:26 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 20:46:26 -0500 Subject: Two dead LK201 keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <01RFH7RD00ME8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <300F8026-2FC2-47DD-8BF4-B4331D6C7238@comcast.net> > On Dec 27, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > >>> Supplies of good non-USB PC keyboards are probably beginning to get harder >>> to find now too... >> >> True. It could use either kind of keyboard. Also, USB to mini-DIN adapters are still sold ($5 in the current L-Com catalog). That seems like a cheaper solution than a USB Host shield. >> > > If you mean one of these, they are just passive adapters that only > work if the USB keyboard (or mouse) is capable of supporting both USB > and PS/2 interfaces. > > http://www.l-com.com/usb-usb-adapter-type-a-female-mini-din-6-male > > I imagine the majority of cheap disposable keyboards manufactured now > are USB only devices, not combination USB - PS/2 compatible devices I can get one and test it with an Apple keyboard, but that doesn't sound right. There aren't enough wires on a USB connector to allow you to speak the PS/2 protocol. And there are PS/2 to USB adapters (for old keyboards) that are the same size; clearly the old keyboards don't speak USB. So I have to assume both of those devices have a bit of logic inside. A simple USB chip easily fits, consider the FTDI USB UART devices that are just tiny chips encapsulated in the USB connector. paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Dec 27 20:58:26 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 18:58:26 -0800 Subject: Two dead LK201 keyboards In-Reply-To: <300F8026-2FC2-47DD-8BF4-B4331D6C7238@comcast.net> References: <01RFH7RD00ME8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> <300F8026-2FC2-47DD-8BF4-B4331D6C7238@comcast.net> Message-ID: > There aren't enough wires on a USB connector to allow you to speak the PS/2 protocol. How many wires are necessary to speak the PS/2 protocol? How many pins are there on a USB connector? In front of me right now I have a Microsoft IntelliMouse Explorer USB and PS/2 Compatible mouse, and a Cherry G84-4100PTAUS compact keyboard, which both have USB plugs on their cables and both work with passive USB to PS/2 adapter plugs. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Dec 28 04:25:14 2019 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 10:25:14 +0000 Subject: Two dead LK201 keyboards In-Reply-To: <300F8026-2FC2-47DD-8BF4-B4331D6C7238@comcast.net> References: <01RFH7RD00ME8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> <300F8026-2FC2-47DD-8BF4-B4331D6C7238@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3f97252a-368f-32c9-bf29-9b809ef71a6c@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/12/2019 01:46, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I can get one and test it with an Apple keyboard, but that doesn't sound right. There aren't enough wires on a USB connector to allow you to speak the PS/2 protocol. And there are PS/2 to USB adapters (for old keyboards) that are the same size; clearly the old keyboards don't speak USB. Enough wires? +5V, ground, clock, data vs +5V, ground, D+, D- Those old adapters are definitely just passive wiring, and were commonly supplied with dual-standard mice. That's why they're green. I worked in the IT department of a large university and it caused a lot of confusion back in the day when they were common, when people expected them to convert any keyboard or mouse to PS/2, and found they didn't. They only work with devices that inherently support both protocols. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Dec 28 08:41:04 2019 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 08:41:04 -0600 Subject: Mystery mid-70's keyboards Message-ID: <166c4869-494a-dd95-32ad-fa46b2900a88@gmail.com> Hey all, I was wondering if anyone knows what system either of these two keyboards came from: 1) APL keyboard made by Maxi-switch, IC date codes in 1976, p/n 2129-009, keyboard encoder has "NKBD-452 03-004-05": http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/maxi.jpg 2) Keyboard branded as Licon 55-500129, IC date codes in 1973 and '74. Has three blank white keys, one blank gray key, and one blank black key, also "home mem", "marg set" and "video rvs": http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/licon.jpg I picked up both hoping that at least one would be simple parallel output and so useful for homebrew stuff, but I am curious about what they originally came from. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Dec 28 08:46:39 2019 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 08:46:39 -0600 Subject: Lockheed MAC-16 Message-ID: <1c81563c-4f05-007a-d6c2-345107b89042@gmail.com> Are there any surviving Lockheed MAC-16 machines anywhere? And/or does anyone have a good photo of the front? (All I've been able to find online is the angled shot that's on the wikipedia page, plus a few grainy images from marketing info). I rescued a couple of panels a little while ago, but all I have are the PCB, switch and bulb-holder assemblies; it might be fun at some point to mock up a surrounding bezel/overlay, but I'd need some good quality reference material for that. cheers Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 28 09:38:23 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 07:38:23 -0800 Subject: ODS-1 structure examiner Message-ID: <1a960875-d797-0a33-746c-37d4103afe90@bitsavers.org> Lee was looking for info on RSX ODS-1 earlier this year Looks like he's made progress groking it http://rsx11.blogspot.com/2019/12/opind-rsx11-ods-1-disk-structure-utility.html From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Dec 28 10:27:35 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:27:35 -0500 Subject: Two dead LK201 keyboards In-Reply-To: <3f97252a-368f-32c9-bf29-9b809ef71a6c@dunnington.plus.com> References: <01RFH7RD00ME8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> <300F8026-2FC2-47DD-8BF4-B4331D6C7238@comcast.net> <3f97252a-368f-32c9-bf29-9b809ef71a6c@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 28, 2019, at 5:25 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > > On 28/12/2019 01:46, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> I can get one and test it with an Apple keyboard, but that doesn't sound right. There aren't enough wires on a USB connector to allow you to speak the PS/2 protocol. And there are PS/2 to USB adapters (for old keyboards) that are the same size; clearly the old keyboards don't speak USB. > > Enough wires? +5V, ground, clock, data vs +5V, ground, D+, D- > > Those old adapters are definitely just passive wiring, and were commonly supplied with dual-standard mice. That's why they're green. I worked in the IT department of a large university and it caused a lot of confusion back in the day when they were common, when people expected them to convert any keyboard or mouse to PS/2, and found they didn't. They only work with devices that inherently support both protocols. Ok, it sounds like I jumped to conclusions on insufficient data. It sure is amazing to speak two so unrelated protocols on the same wires and somehow make it work. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Dec 28 11:04:46 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 12:04:46 -0500 Subject: Two dead LK201 keyboards In-Reply-To: <3f97252a-368f-32c9-bf29-9b809ef71a6c@dunnington.plus.com> References: <01RFH7RD00ME8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie> <300F8026-2FC2-47DD-8BF4-B4331D6C7238@comcast.net> <3f97252a-368f-32c9-bf29-9b809ef71a6c@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 5:39 AM Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > Those old adapters are definitely just passive wiring, and were commonly > supplied with dual-standard mice. That's why they're green. I have green ones for mice, and purple ones for keyboards (same signals on USB side, different pins on PS/2 side). > They only work with devices that inherently support both protocols. Yep. I don't even know which of my keyboards work with the adapter, but I should probably test a few and mark them and set them aside for 90s machines/projects (like Amiga PS/2 keyboard adapters which were popular at one point because of the scarcity and cost of genuine Amiga keyboards). -ethan From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 28 11:38:38 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 12:38:38 -0500 Subject: Mystery mid-70's keyboards In-Reply-To: <166c4869-494a-dd95-32ad-fa46b2900a88@gmail.com> References: <166c4869-494a-dd95-32ad-fa46b2900a88@gmail.com> Message-ID: My initial thought is a clone dec terminal printer keyboard. Bill On Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 9:41 AM Jules Richardson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Hey all, > > I was wondering if anyone knows what system either of these two keyboards > came from: > > 1) APL keyboard made by Maxi-switch, IC date codes in 1976, p/n 2129-009, > keyboard encoder has "NKBD-452 03-004-05": > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/maxi.jpg > > 2) Keyboard branded as Licon 55-500129, IC date codes in 1973 and '74. Has > three blank white keys, one blank gray key, and one blank black key, also > "home mem", "marg set" and "video rvs": > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/licon.jpg > > I picked up both hoping that at least one would be simple parallel output > and so useful for homebrew stuff, but I am curious about what they > originally came from. > > cheers > > Jules > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 28 11:39:21 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 12:39:21 -0500 Subject: Mystery mid-70's keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <166c4869-494a-dd95-32ad-fa46b2900a88@gmail.com> Message-ID: But that cant be right On Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 12:38 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > My initial thought is a clone dec terminal printer keyboard. > Bill > > On Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 9:41 AM Jules Richardson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> Hey all, >> >> I was wondering if anyone knows what system either of these two keyboards >> came from: >> >> 1) APL keyboard made by Maxi-switch, IC date codes in 1976, p/n 2129-009, >> keyboard encoder has "NKBD-452 03-004-05": >> http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/maxi.jpg >> >> 2) Keyboard branded as Licon 55-500129, IC date codes in 1973 and '74. >> Has >> three blank white keys, one blank gray key, and one blank black key, also >> "home mem", "marg set" and "video rvs": >> http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/licon.jpg >> >> I picked up both hoping that at least one would be simple parallel output >> and so useful for homebrew stuff, but I am curious about what they >> originally came from. >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 28 11:47:06 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 09:47:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mystery mid-70's keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <166c4869-494a-dd95-32ad-fa46b2900a88@gmail.com> Message-ID: >>> 2) Keyboard branded as Licon 55-500129, IC date codes in 1973 and '74. >>> Has three blank white keys, one blank gray key, and one blank black key, also >>> "home mem", "marg set" and "video rvs": >>> http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/licon.jpg > On Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 12:38 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > >> My initial thought is a clone dec terminal printer keyboard. > But that cant be right "marg set" sounds like a word processor. From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Dec 28 12:06:32 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:06:32 -0700 Subject: Mystery mid-70's keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <166c4869-494a-dd95-32ad-fa46b2900a88@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 11:47 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> 2) Keyboard branded as Licon 55-500129, IC date codes in 1973 and '74. > >>> Has three blank white keys, one blank gray key, and one blank black > key, also > >>> "home mem", "marg set" and "video rvs": > >>> http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/licon.jpg > > > On Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 12:38 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > > > >> My initial thought is a clone dec terminal printer keyboard. > > > But that cant be right > > "marg set" sounds like a word processor. > Looks like a data entry keyboard... Warner > From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Dec 28 13:57:25 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 14:57:25 -0500 Subject: DEC Rainbow / Pro video on VGA monitors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jan 19, 2019, at 4:38 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jan 19, 2019, at 1:57 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >> >> Greetings, >> >> I'm trying to find a way to get my DEC Rainbow's monochrome output onto a >> newer monitor than my aging VR201 (especially since I zapped something in >> it and my diagnostic efforts to date haven't fixed it). >> ... > > I'd be interested in the answer also, for my Pro. Digging in old email... I've looked at this some more the other day. Two observations. 1. The "mono" video output from the Pro is a valid composite video signal, no surprise there. 2. For color signals, the approach I'm going to try in the near future is to convert to "component video". That's a trivial analog process, see https://www.analog.com/en/design-center/reference-designs/circuit-collections/lt6550-rgb-to-ypbpr-component-video-conversion.html for example. The reason this seems like a good approach is that component video inputs of typical TV sets support "480i" signals, which is what the Pro produces. Contrast that with VGA, which is effectively 480p (no interlace, 2x the horizontal frequency) so producing that is a much harder job. If you can change the color mapping, you could even just feed an RGB signal directly to a component video input, with G going to Y (assuming you have sync on green) and R/B going to Pr/Pb with a bias in the color map entries to make the result right. Haven't tried that either. paul From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Dec 28 14:55:12 2019 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 14:55:12 -0600 Subject: Mystery mid-70's keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <166c4869-494a-dd95-32ad-fa46b2900a88@gmail.com> Message-ID: <781b04ab-9bcb-41ee-04c2-ffd0619a578c@gmail.com> On 12/28/19 12:06 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >> "marg set" sounds like a word processor. > > Looks like a data entry keyboard... Yup, the ASCII control codes on the keys seemed out of place for a wordprocessor, but then there's that "marg set" key. I'd wondered about some kind of early electronic typesetting system, but I'm hoping someone will know exactly what it is. The five blank keys are weird, too (particularly the out of place black one). The copper ground plane across the top of the PCB is kinda odd as well and not the sort of construction I'd expect from a mere keyboard. cheers Jules From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Dec 29 17:57:30 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 18:57:30 -0500 Subject: Repairing RL02 disks, directories of RSX11M 4.2 gen packs Message-ID: <3f424399-24ff-2ee6-550d-2e95ffb7b0af@alembic.crystel.com> Hi! As I work to repair my RL02 collection I need to check and fix the files on the five disks in the original boot collection. Question: Does anyone know which directories/files went on which RL02 disk pack? Goal is to get the packs back to the point where I can do a good old fashioned sysgen again. Thanks! Chris From trash80 at internode.on.net Sun Dec 29 19:09:44 2019 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 01:09:44 +0000 Subject: FTGH - S100 Message-ID: FTGH - S100 This was a rescue (so its neither tested or power up) and some docs came with it so I assume they belong to this machine (see pics). http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/s100-rescue-1/ The machine is located in Mortlake in the south west of Victoria (Australia) and will need to be collected from there. Alternatively I will be in Melbourne (Australia), more precisely Tullamarine, at various times during January 2020 and it could be collected from there. http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/s100-rescue-1/ Kevin Parker From bear at typewritten.org Sun Dec 29 19:59:12 2019 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 17:59:12 -0800 Subject: HPIB HDA low-level format? Message-ID: Is there a way to get an HP-IB disk unit with an ST412 or ESDI type HDA inside to perform a low-level format? I think this is what 'mediainit' is maybe supposed to do (based on being able to change the interleave) but I don't see any way to map bad blocks (etc.) using it. The -r 'recertify' option is apparently only valid for tape. I have a 7946A with a Vertex V170 that needs some new blocks marked bad. There's nothing on it I need to keep, but if I use 'mediainit' on it, it fails pretty quick with an I/O error. From the sounds it makes, it's hitting the first defect (at block 64) and giving up. # ioscan -f Class H/W Path Driver H/W Status S/W Status ================================================= hpib 7 98624 ok(0x301) ok disk 7.0 cs80 ok(0x220) ok tape_drive 7.0 cs80 ok(0x220) ok serial 9 98626 ok(0x10) ok scsi 14 98265 ok(0x313) ok disk 14.2 scsi ok(0x202) ok lan 21 lla ok(0x30f) ok # mediainit -v -i 1 /dev/rdsk/c7d0s0 mediainit: initialization process starting mediainit: locking the volume mediainit: performing a describe command mediainit: running diagnostics mediainit: initializing media mediainit: initialize media command failed - I/O error # I know it's doing something to the disk because the data that was in the first 64 blocks is now zeroed out. # dd if=/dev/dsk/c7d0s0 count=64 | od -x 0000000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 * 64+0 records in 64+0 records out 0100000 # dd if=/users/bear/7946A.dd count=1 | od -x 0000000 0030 7375 2e72 0032 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000020 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000040 0000 0000 1190 1202 0644 0000 0000 0000 0000060 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 * 64+0 records in 64+0 records out 0100000 # ok bear. -- until further notice From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Dec 30 00:24:05 2019 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 22:24:05 -0800 Subject: HPIB HDA low-level format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 29, 2019, at 17:59, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: > Is there a way to get an HP-IB disk unit with an ST412 or ESDI type HDA inside to perform a low-level format? > > I think this is what 'mediainit' is maybe supposed to do (based on being able to change the interleave) but I don't see any way to map bad blocks (etc.) using it. The -r 'recertify' option is apparently only valid for tape. > > I have a 7946A with a Vertex V170 that needs some new blocks marked bad. There's nothing on it I need to keep, but if I use 'mediainit' on it, it fails pretty quick with an I/O error. From the sounds it makes, it's hitting the first defect (at block 64) and giving up. Once upon a time, I had pretty much this same problem. This on an HP 9000/320 with HP-UX 7.05, and a 7946 with a Vertex V170. Copy-pasta below from an e-mail that I wrote about it back in 1992: (begin copy-pasta) I think I've fixed my dead 7946 disk drive! I sent away for the 7946 service manual (it's p/n 07940-90903 if you're interested; $20+s/h for us non-HP-employees), and did a strings `which mediainit`. This "research" led me to the following incantation (comments in square brackets are mine): # mediainit -vGD /dev/rdsk/2s0 [ G == guru mode D == debugging mode ] WARNING: You have invoked guru mode, a mode requiring extensive device command set knowledge in order to properly respond to prompts that follow, and from which you could seriously compromise device integrity by responding improperly. Are you SURE you want to proceed? (y/n) y mediainit: initialization process starting mediainit: locking the volume mediainit: performing a describe command mediainit: interleave factor 1 chosen suppress running diagnostic? (y/n) y [ if you run the diagnostic it will fail ] initialize options? (defaults to 0) 2 [ 0 == normal initialization, keep spares, etc ] [ 1 == retain factory spares only (forget field spares) ] [ 2 == completely reinitialize the HDA, forget all spares, etc ] volume ert passes? (defaults to 2) 2 [ this is recommended in the service manual ] clear logs option? (defaults to 1) 1 [ probably a good idea - the "drive logs" are gibberish if you've used the drive on a PC ] sparing mode byte? (defaults to 1) 1 [ I don't know what this means, but I took the default ] mediainit: initializing media mediainit: pre-setting drive mediainit: clearing logs mediainit: running a 2 pass volume error rate test mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 0 mediainit: testing suspect sector 4 on head 0, cylinder 576 mediainit: sparing sector 4 on head 0, cylinder 576 mediainit: re-testing entire track on head 0, cylinder 576 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 1 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 2 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 3 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 4 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 5 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 6 mediainit: reading run time log for head 0 mediainit: reading run time log for head 1 mediainit: reading run time log for head 2 mediainit: reading run time log for head 3 mediainit: reading run time log for head 4 mediainit: reading run time log for head 5 mediainit: reading run time log for head 6 mediainit: initialization process completed # ... it may be a good idea to spare some of the other things (like the hard errors listed on the top of the drive), but I don't know how to turn bytes-from-index numbers back into CS/80 sectors. You may be able to turn them up as errors by running more ERT passes. I should probably put the drive on a 3000 and look at the spared-sector lists with CS80UTIL. As they say, "your mileage may vary." But my drive now powers up without a flashing red error light; sooner or later I'll newfs it and play with it. (end copy-pasta) -Frank McConnell From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Dec 30 00:24:05 2019 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 22:24:05 -0800 Subject: HPIB HDA low-level format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 29, 2019, at 17:59, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: > Is there a way to get an HP-IB disk unit with an ST412 or ESDI type HDA inside to perform a low-level format? > > I think this is what 'mediainit' is maybe supposed to do (based on being able to change the interleave) but I don't see any way to map bad blocks (etc.) using it. The -r 'recertify' option is apparently only valid for tape. > > I have a 7946A with a Vertex V170 that needs some new blocks marked bad. There's nothing on it I need to keep, but if I use 'mediainit' on it, it fails pretty quick with an I/O error. From the sounds it makes, it's hitting the first defect (at block 64) and giving up. Once upon a time, I had pretty much this same problem. This on an HP 9000/320 with HP-UX 7.05, and a 7946 with a Vertex V170. Copy-pasta below from an e-mail that I wrote about it back in 1992: (begin copy-pasta) I think I've fixed my dead 7946 disk drive! I sent away for the 7946 service manual (it's p/n 07940-90903 if you're interested; $20+s/h for us non-HP-employees), and did a strings `which mediainit`. This "research" led me to the following incantation (comments in square brackets are mine): # mediainit -vGD /dev/rdsk/2s0 [ G == guru mode D == debugging mode ] WARNING: You have invoked guru mode, a mode requiring extensive device command set knowledge in order to properly respond to prompts that follow, and from which you could seriously compromise device integrity by responding improperly. Are you SURE you want to proceed? (y/n) y mediainit: initialization process starting mediainit: locking the volume mediainit: performing a describe command mediainit: interleave factor 1 chosen suppress running diagnostic? (y/n) y [ if you run the diagnostic it will fail ] initialize options? (defaults to 0) 2 [ 0 == normal initialization, keep spares, etc ] [ 1 == retain factory spares only (forget field spares) ] [ 2 == completely reinitialize the HDA, forget all spares, etc ] volume ert passes? (defaults to 2) 2 [ this is recommended in the service manual ] clear logs option? (defaults to 1) 1 [ probably a good idea - the "drive logs" are gibberish if you've used the drive on a PC ] sparing mode byte? (defaults to 1) 1 [ I don't know what this means, but I took the default ] mediainit: initializing media mediainit: pre-setting drive mediainit: clearing logs mediainit: running a 2 pass volume error rate test mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 0 mediainit: testing suspect sector 4 on head 0, cylinder 576 mediainit: sparing sector 4 on head 0, cylinder 576 mediainit: re-testing entire track on head 0, cylinder 576 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 1 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 2 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 3 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 4 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 5 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 6 mediainit: reading run time log for head 0 mediainit: reading run time log for head 1 mediainit: reading run time log for head 2 mediainit: reading run time log for head 3 mediainit: reading run time log for head 4 mediainit: reading run time log for head 5 mediainit: reading run time log for head 6 mediainit: initialization process completed # ... it may be a good idea to spare some of the other things (like the hard errors listed on the top of the drive), but I don't know how to turn bytes-from-index numbers back into CS/80 sectors. You may be able to turn them up as errors by running more ERT passes. I should probably put the drive on a 3000 and look at the spared-sector lists with CS80UTIL. As they say, "your mileage may vary." But my drive now powers up without a flashing red error light; sooner or later I'll newfs it and play with it. (end copy-pasta) -Frank McConnell From trash80 at internode.on.net Mon Dec 30 02:36:49 2019 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 08:36:49 +0000 Subject: FTGH - S100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is now spoken for. Kevin Parker ------ Original Message ------ From: "Kevin Parker via cctech" To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Sent: 30/12/2019 12:09:44 PM Subject: FTGH - S100 >FTGH - S100 > >This was a rescue (so its neither tested or power up) and some docs came with it so I assume they belong to this machine (see pics). > >http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/s100-rescue-1/ > >The machine is located in Mortlake in the south west of Victoria (Australia) and will need to be collected from there. Alternatively I will be in Melbourne (Australia), more precisely Tullamarine, at various times during January 2020 and it could be collected from there. > >http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/s100-rescue-1/ > >Kevin Parker > From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Dec 30 05:43:58 2019 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:43:58 +0000 Subject: First Internet message In-Reply-To: <6A2FA7EF-4900-4B49-8977-BA8A653C498B@comcast.net> References: , <6A2FA7EF-4900-4B49-8977-BA8A653C498B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1577706236269.37557@w2hx.com> software is currently non-patentable. Not sure the order of when it was/wasnt but currently is not. ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2019 5:09 PM To: Fred Cisin; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: First Internet message > On Dec 26, 2019, at 12:23 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > And, a Happy Humbug to you, too! > Fleas Navy Dad and Yo new huevo! spellling? > > >> I^@^Ym not familiar with U.S. law but didn^@^Yt Xerox ^@^Xown^@^Y the patent(s) t$ technology? Again to my knowledge Microsoft and Apple both ^@^Xappropriated^@^Y and/or ^@^Xmisapproriated^@^Y, depending on your point-of-view, this exact technology! > > Xerox took the position that ideas like that were not patentable, and could not be hoarded for financial gain. It is not clear to me whether that was a truly altruistic position, or a tacit acknowledgement that it was resistance is futile. The rules have changed over time. Whether that's by bureaucratic fiat or by changes to the law I'm not sure. For example, at one point software wasn't considered patentable, which meant Rivest, Shamir, and Adleman had to twist themselves into some contortions to patent the RSA algorithm. It was done by describing it as a device, I think. Not long afterwards, software patents became possible. The Xerox work may have been in the earlier period. Some companies weren't as serious about patents as others; I worked for a startup around 1997 that didn't care to patent anything, which was really rather stupid of them. But large companies like Xerox do tend to understand their options here. paul From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 30 12:12:50 2019 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 18:12:50 -0000 Subject: Replacing Electrolytic Capacitors on VAXmate Video Board Message-ID: <021701d5bf3c$bff5aef0$3fe10cd0$@ntlworld.com> I have my VAXmate in pieces at the moment because the PSU has failed. I am still working on finding the fault there, although it seems to be the crowbar circuit that is shutting it down. To work out the problem I am going to buy a DSO (Rigol DS1054Z) as my regular scope is analog and not much use in detecting one-off events. It is an odd fault because there was a definite bad smell after the failure, but I can't find any blown components. Whatever blew up has presumably taken something on the PSU board with it, but I don't know what yet. The PSU shuts down even with none of the other VAXmate boards attached (and using a scratch HDD as a load). Anyway, while I have the machine open, I thought I would look at the video board capacitors too. Before the PSU failed, I noticed a bit of an occasional wobble in the screen image and a narrowing of the image at the top of the screen. I have measured ESR on all the electrolytics. All the larger capacitors seem to have a low ESR compared to the table printed on my ESR meter, some of the small ones (15uF/16V sort of size) have an ESR closer to the values printed on my ESR meter. I don't really want to replace everything if I don't have to, but equally I don't want any kind of failure to ruin an irreplaceable component like the transformer. Should I just re-cap the lot, or just the physically smaller capacitors? Thanks Rob From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Mon Dec 30 15:42:33 2019 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 14:42:33 -0700 Subject: Question about a PDP-11 Rack I would like to sell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f486402-d2e3-7533-5324-ec149d6b3c78@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/30/19 12:47 PM, Eric Hernandez wrote: > Hi , > > My name is Eric (engr.eric at gmail.com), I'm from Long Beach, California, > USA. I have an original PDP-11 Rack (just the one rack with the Digital > logo and no other components). I absolutely love this Rack and the > vintage logo/sign across the top, but I have to find a new home for > it and I can't bring myself to just craigslist it for it's usage as > a general equipment rack or to just ebay the logo at the top. I was > wondering if anyone here knew where I can sell it to a good home or > what a fair asking price would be for it? Thanks for any insight you > could provide. Cross posting to a wider audience. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Dec 30 15:52:49 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 16:52:49 -0500 Subject: TALOS is back online :-) Message-ID: <3e35b24c-42f8-73bd-6300-7d6bf6ea0b79@alembic.crystel.com> Well, I've been working on all these RL02 drives and such in an effort to repair the pdp11/73 that I used to bring to science fiction conventions in the 1980's and 1990's. TALOS was the new system, BALCON (after Balticon) was the older system that ran on RL01's and would require me hauling a 6 foot rack of gear in a 1971 station wagon. Oh those were the days, splitting power with the laser frobs and running multi-player games back in the late 80's.... Anyway, Talos suffered a failure a long time ago and has been dead since. Now that I have time and space I've been working on fixing it. First step was to find out if anything worked, turned out one of my RL02 controllers was flakey and one of my RL02 drives had a very naughty head that resulted in the destruction of my RSXM38 boot pack. And the memory was unhappy. But the 11/73 CPU was sound. After fixing that junk I was able to boot RT11 and install it on one of the partitions of the Fujitsu ESDI disk (MTI controller, has two partitions per disk each about 70mb in size). So finally the system and drive logic was working but trying to boot the RSX11M image just gave me a trap to zero fault. First step was to fix a RSX11M 4.2 system disk. Did a quick sysgen on SIMH, built to a RL02 pack image, then once that was up and working with DU: driver support (the out of the box disks do not support DU:) I was able to transfer the image over serial using pdp11GUI (great tool!) to the RL02 drive. Now I could boot RSX11M on the RL02. However I knew that I had only one shot to fix the Fuji drive, and I wished I had a backup. Wait! I can make a backup of the Fuji drive using PDP11GUI! Upped the baud rate on the 11/73 from 9600 to 38400, loaded the drivers, fired it up, and let it run for 7 hours to copy the disk image. Really interesting that there were no errors, meaning the disk image itself was not the problem. Hm.... Then I made a copy on my laptop (took less than a second, sigh) and realized I could boot the RSX11M image on SIMH *and* mount the Fuji volume copy to find out what was up. Booted the image, mounted the disk, and took a look. Found it pretty quickly: Back in 1997 I was doing a cleanup of the system and did a purge of old versions of files in [1,54]. I must have had a later version of RSX11M there from a VMR operation that I never committed to disk, and when I purged the older version it was the one that the boot block was trying to reference. Thus the system ran fine but when I shut it down and booted it a few years later it could not find the deleted file and crashed out. Simple. Solution was to set the default to DU2:[1,54], then boot du2:rsx11m, hit G when the XDT debugger came up, then type SAV /WB to re-write the boot block with the correct version of the RSX11m file. Sure enough, the system booted up, complained about not finding the DZV11 cards (I had removed them for testing) and was working. Shut down the RL02 drive, did a cold restart, and TALOS came up and online :-) Now I need to figure out what to do with it. I think it has DecNet 11/M 4.0 on it, so I could do a Phase II link with another system over serial ports/tcpip to serial gateways. If I can find the later versions of Decnet 11/M I could probably gen an Ethernet card and do a gateway to TCP/IP systems. Anyone want to peer with this old system? Overall this was an interesting little project: It required me to dust off my hardware, software, and OS level troubleshooting skills. Now that the system is up I can start working on hooking up the RX01 drives to get the PDT11/150 some fixed disks, then start thinking about the 20/20 core in the shed..... Never dull, and thank you everyone for the help and the tools. From bear at typewritten.org Mon Dec 30 22:47:12 2019 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 20:47:12 -0800 Subject: HPIB HDA low-level format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 29, 2019, at 10:24 PM, Frank McConnell wrote: > # mediainit -vGD /dev/rdsk/2s0 [ G == guru mode D == debugging mode ] That was exactly it. Interesting that "initialization option" 2 is different from "format option" 2 (I thought I could perhaps shortcut the -GD mode with -f 2). Thanks! ok bear. # mediainit -v -i 1 -f 2 /dev/rdsk/c7d0s0 mediainit: initialization process starting mediainit: locking the volume mediainit: performing a describe command mediainit: format option specified, but device supports none - Invalid argument # mediainit -vDG /dev/rdsk/c7d0s0 WARNING: You have invoked guru mode, a mode requiring extensive device command set knowledge in order to properly respond to prompts that follow, and from which you could seriously compromise device integrity by responding improperly. Are you SURE you want to proceed? (y/n) y mediainit: initialization process starting mediainit: locking the volume mediainit: performing a describe command mediainit: interleave factor 1 chosen suppress running diagnostic? (y/n) n initialize options? (defaults to 0) 2 volume ert passes? (defaults to 2) clear logs option? (defaults to 1) sparing mode byte? (defaults to 1) mediainit: running diagnostics mediainit: initializing media mediainit: pre-setting drive mediainit: clearing logs mediainit: running a 2 pass volume error rate test mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 0 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 1 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 2 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 3 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 4 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 5 mediainit: reading error rate test log for head 6 mediainit: reading run time log for head 0 mediainit: reading run time log for head 1 mediainit: reading run time log for head 2 mediainit: reading run time log for head 3 mediainit: reading run time log for head 4 mediainit: reading run time log for head 5 mediainit: reading run time log for head 6 additional manual sparing? (y/n) n mediainit: initialization process completed # dd if=/dev/dsk/c7d0s0 of=/dev/null dd read error: I/O error 108420+0 records in 108420+0 records out # -- until further notice From mark.darvill at mac.com Tue Dec 31 08:16:28 2019 From: mark.darvill at mac.com (Mark Darvill) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 14:16:28 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! References: Message-ID: Good news! After a bit of a configuration nightmare (it is more complicated than Worldpay) I have got it working. I will test a couple more times and then figure out what we need to do to make it live. Mark > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Vale Coaches - Office > Subject: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! > Date: 31 December 2019 at 14:11:32 GMT > To: mark.darvill at mac.com > Reply-To: Vale Coaches > > > > Thank you for your order > Hi Mark, > > Just to let you know ? we've received your order #10075, and it is now being processed: > > [Order #10075] (31st December 2019) > > Product Quantity Price > RHS Cardiff Flower Show - Saturday 18th April 2020 > Pickup Point: > Sturminster Newton > Packed Lunch Sandwich: > Egg & cress on brown > Packed Lunch Drink: > Apple Juice > 1 ?69.00 > Subtotal: ?69.00 > Payment method: Barclaycard > Total: ?69.00 > Billing address > > Mark Darvill > Test > April Cotatge > Sackmore Lane, Marnhull > Sturminster Newton > Dorset > DT10 1PN > 01258 820871 > mark.darvill at mac.com > Thanks for using valecoaches.com! > > Vale Coaches > Site built by Marnhull Computers Marnhull Computers From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Dec 31 10:15:00 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 10:15:00 -0600 Subject: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ? On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 8:16 AM Mark Darvill via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Good news! After a bit of a configuration nightmare (it is more > complicated than Worldpay) I have got it working. > > I will test a couple more times and then figure out what we need to do to > make it live. > > Mark > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > From: Vale Coaches - Office > > Subject: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! > > Date: 31 December 2019 at 14:11:32 GMT > > To: mark.darvill at mac.com > > Reply-To: Vale Coaches > > > > > > > > Thank you for your order > > Hi Mark, > > > > Just to let you know ? we've received your order #10075, and it is now > being processed: > > > > [Order #10075] (31st December 2019) > > > > Product Quantity Price > > RHS Cardiff Flower Show - Saturday 18th April 2020 > > Pickup Point: > > Sturminster Newton > > Packed Lunch Sandwich: > > Egg & cress on brown > > Packed Lunch Drink: > > Apple Juice > > 1 ?69.00 > > Subtotal: ?69.00 > > Payment method: Barclaycard > > Total: ?69.00 > > Billing address > > > > Mark Darvill > > Test > > April Cotatge > > Sackmore Lane, Marnhull > > Sturminster Newton > > Dorset > > DT10 1PN > > 01258 820871 > > mark.darvill at mac.com > > Thanks for using valecoaches.com! > > > > Vale Coaches > > Site built by Marnhull Computers Marnhull Computers mark at marnhullcomputers.com> > From mark.darvill at mac.com Tue Dec 31 10:24:06 2019 From: mark.darvill at mac.com (Mark Darvill) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 16:24:06 +0000 Subject: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <740361AB-B6AB-4C57-AC7D-D0B46E9C1C00@mac.com> Apologies my error, working on a website, please disregard. Mark > On 31 Dec 2019, at 16:15, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > ? > > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 8:16 AM Mark Darvill via cctalk > wrote: > Good news! After a bit of a configuration nightmare (it is more complicated than Worldpay) I have got it working. > > I will test a couple more times and then figure out what we need to do to make it live. > > Mark > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > From: Vale Coaches - Office > > > Subject: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! > > Date: 31 December 2019 at 14:11:32 GMT > > To: mark.darvill at mac.com > > Reply-To: Vale Coaches > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your order > > Hi Mark, > > > > Just to let you know ? we've received your order #10075, and it is now being processed: > > > > [Order #10075] (31st December 2019) > > > > Product Quantity Price > > RHS Cardiff Flower Show - Saturday 18th April 2020 > > Pickup Point: > > Sturminster Newton > > Packed Lunch Sandwich: > > Egg & cress on brown > > Packed Lunch Drink: > > Apple Juice > > 1 ?69.00 > > Subtotal: ?69.00 > > Payment method: Barclaycard > > Total: ?69.00 > > Billing address > > > > Mark Darvill > > Test > > April Cotatge > > Sackmore Lane, Marnhull > > Sturminster Newton > > Dorset > > DT10 1PN > > 01258 820871 > > mark.darvill at mac.com > > Thanks for using valecoaches.com ! > > > > Vale Coaches > > Site built by Marnhull Computers Marnhull Computers > From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Dec 31 11:09:43 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:09:43 -0600 Subject: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/31/2019 10:15 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > ? I know!!! 69? for a sandwich lunch??? Talk about price gouging! > > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 8:16 AM Mark Darvill via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Good news! After a bit of a configuration nightmare (it is more >> complicated than Worldpay) I have got it working. >> >> I will test a couple more times and then figure out what we need to do to >> make it live. >> >> Mark >> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> From: Vale Coaches - Office >>> Subject: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! >>> Date: 31 December 2019 at 14:11:32 GMT >>> To: mark.darvill at mac.com >>> Reply-To: Vale Coaches >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you for your order >>> Hi Mark, >>> >>> Just to let you know ? we've received your order #10075, and it is now >> being processed: >>> [Order #10075] (31st December 2019) >>> >>> Product Quantity Price >>> RHS Cardiff Flower Show - Saturday 18th April 2020 >>> Pickup Point: >>> Sturminster Newton >>> Packed Lunch Sandwich: >>> Egg & cress on brown >>> Packed Lunch Drink: >>> Apple Juice >>> 1 ?69.00 >>> Subtotal: ?69.00 >>> Payment method: Barclaycard >>> Total: ?69.00 >>> Billing address >>> >>> Mark Darvill >>> Test >>> April Cotatge >>> Sackmore Lane, Marnhull >>> Sturminster Newton >>> Dorset >>> DT10 1PN >>> 01258 820871 >>> mark.darvill at mac.com >>> Thanks for using valecoaches.com! >>> >>> Vale Coaches >>> Site built by Marnhull Computers Marnhull Computers > mark at marnhullcomputers.com> >> -- John H. Reinhardt PRRT&HS #8909 C&O HS #11530 N-Trak #7566 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Dec 31 11:13:25 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 18:13:25 +0100 Subject: First Internet message and ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Dec 2019 at 07:51, Nemo via cctalk wrote: > > Would you have the citations handy? I would be interested to read that. I thought the same thing! -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From nw.johnson at ieee.org Tue Dec 31 11:14:50 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 12:14:50 -0500 Subject: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97556596-55e9-cb75-b72b-05e322a3aa7b@ieee.org> I thought that mysen, then I saw the title.? I believe what is offered is a coach ride to get the sandwich at an event of the Royal Horticultural Society Perhaps a little more upscale than the average MacDonalds? On 31/12/2019 12:09, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > On 12/31/2019 10:15 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: >> ? > > > I know!!! 69? for a sandwich lunch??? Talk about price gouging! > >> >> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 8:16 AM Mark Darvill via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Good news! After a bit of a configuration nightmare (it is more >>> complicated than Worldpay) I have got it working. >>> >>> I will test a couple more times and then figure out what we need to >>> do to >>> make it live. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>> >>>> From: Vale Coaches - Office >>>> Subject: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! >>>> Date: 31 December 2019 at 14:11:32 GMT >>>> To: mark.darvill at mac.com >>>> Reply-To: Vale Coaches >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you for your order >>>> Hi Mark, >>>> >>>> Just to let you know ? we've received your order #10075, and it is now >>> being processed: >>>> [Order #10075] (31st December 2019) >>>> >>>> Product?????? Quantity??????? Price >>>> RHS Cardiff Flower Show - Saturday 18th April 2020 >>>> Pickup Point: >>>> Sturminster Newton >>>> Packed Lunch Sandwich: >>>> Egg & cress on brown >>>> Packed Lunch Drink: >>>> Apple Juice >>>> 1???? ?69.00 >>>> Subtotal:???? ?69.00 >>>> Payment method:?????? Barclaycard >>>> Total:??????? ?69.00 >>>> Billing address >>>> >>>> Mark Darvill >>>> Test >>>> April Cotatge >>>> Sackmore Lane, Marnhull >>>> Sturminster Newton >>>> Dorset >>>> DT10 1PN >>>> 01258 820871 >>>> mark.darvill at mac.com >>>> Thanks for using valecoaches.com! >>>> >>>> Vale Coaches >>>> Site built by Marnhull Computers Marnhull Computers >> mark at marnhullcomputers.com> >>> > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From mark.darvill at mac.com Tue Dec 31 11:19:29 2019 From: mark.darvill at mac.com (Mark Darvill) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 17:19:29 +0000 Subject: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! In-Reply-To: <97556596-55e9-cb75-b72b-05e322a3aa7b@ieee.org> References: <97556596-55e9-cb75-b72b-05e322a3aa7b@ieee.org> Message-ID: It is and that would have been a very expensive sandwich? I am sorry for being the root cause of something to talk about off the usual topics! Back to Classic Computers please?. :) Mark > On 31 Dec 2019, at 17:14, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > > I thought that mysen, then I saw the title. I believe what is offered is a coach ride to get the sandwich at an event of the Royal Horticultural Society > > Perhaps a little more upscale than the average MacDonalds? > > > On 31/12/2019 12:09, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/31/2019 10:15 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: >>> ? >> >> >> I know!!! 69? for a sandwich lunch??? Talk about price gouging! >> >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 8:16 AM Mark Darvill via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Good news! After a bit of a configuration nightmare (it is more >>>> complicated than Worldpay) I have got it working. >>>> >>>> I will test a couple more times and then figure out what we need to do to >>>> make it live. >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>>> >>>>> From: Vale Coaches - Office >>>>> Subject: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! >>>>> Date: 31 December 2019 at 14:11:32 GMT >>>>> To: mark.darvill at mac.com >>>>> Reply-To: Vale Coaches >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your order >>>>> Hi Mark, >>>>> >>>>> Just to let you know ? we've received your order #10075, and it is now >>>> being processed: >>>>> [Order #10075] (31st December 2019) >>>>> >>>>> Product Quantity Price >>>>> RHS Cardiff Flower Show - Saturday 18th April 2020 >>>>> Pickup Point: >>>>> Sturminster Newton >>>>> Packed Lunch Sandwich: >>>>> Egg & cress on brown >>>>> Packed Lunch Drink: >>>>> Apple Juice >>>>> 1 ?69.00 >>>>> Subtotal: ?69.00 >>>>> Payment method: Barclaycard >>>>> Total: ?69.00 >>>>> Billing address >>>>> >>>>> Mark Darvill >>>>> Test >>>>> April Cotatge >>>>> Sackmore Lane, Marnhull >>>>> Sturminster Newton >>>>> Dorset >>>>> DT10 1PN >>>>> 01258 820871 >>>>> mark.darvill at mac.com >>>>> Thanks for using valecoaches.com! >>>>> >>>>> Vale Coaches >>>>> Site built by Marnhull Computers Marnhull Computers >>> mark at marnhullcomputers.com> >>>> >> > > -- > Nigel Johnson > MSc., MIEEE > VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > > > You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 > > If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday > > This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. > Nigel Johnson > > > Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Dec 31 11:21:55 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:21:55 -0600 Subject: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! In-Reply-To: <97556596-55e9-cb75-b72b-05e322a3aa7b@ieee.org> References: <97556596-55e9-cb75-b72b-05e322a3aa7b@ieee.org> Message-ID: <1a27624c-d728-b413-b663-83e32f9a6f12@thereinhardts.org> On 12/31/2019 11:14 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > I thought that mysen, then I saw the title.? I believe what is offered is a coach ride to get the sandwich at an event of the Royal Horticultural Society > > Perhaps a little more upscale than the average MacDonalds? > > Yes, that makes more sense! > On 31/12/2019 12:09, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/31/2019 10:15 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: >>> ? >> >> >> I know!!! 69? for a sandwich lunch??? Talk about price gouging! >> >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 8:16 AM Mark Darvill via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Good news! After a bit of a configuration nightmare (it is more >>>> complicated than Worldpay) I have got it working. >>>> >>>> I will test a couple more times and then figure out what we need to do to >>>> make it live. >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>>> >>>>> From: Vale Coaches - Office >>>>> Subject: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! >>>>> Date: 31 December 2019 at 14:11:32 GMT >>>>> To: mark.darvill at mac.com >>>>> Reply-To: Vale Coaches >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your order >>>>> Hi Mark, >>>>> >>>>> Just to let you know ? we've received your order #10075, and it is now >>>> being processed: >>>>> [Order #10075] (31st December 2019) >>>>> >>>>> Product?????? Quantity??????? Price >>>>> RHS Cardiff Flower Show - Saturday 18th April 2020 >>>>> Pickup Point: >>>>> Sturminster Newton >>>>> Packed Lunch Sandwich: >>>>> Egg & cress on brown >>>>> Packed Lunch Drink: >>>>> Apple Juice >>>>> 1???? ?69.00 >>>>> Subtotal:???? ?69.00 >>>>> Payment method:?????? Barclaycard >>>>> Total:??????? ?69.00 >>>>> Billing address >>>>> >>>>> Mark Darvill >>>>> Test >>>>> April Cotatge >>>>> Sackmore Lane, Marnhull >>>>> Sturminster Newton >>>>> Dorset >>>>> DT10 1PN >>>>> 01258 820871 >>>>> mark.darvill at mac.com >>>>> Thanks for using valecoaches.com! >>>>> >>>>> Vale Coaches >>>>> Site built by Marnhull Computers Marnhull Computers >>> mark at marnhullcomputers.com> >>>> >> > > -- John H. Reinhardt PRRT&HS #8909 C&O HS #11530 N-Trak #7566 From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Dec 31 11:24:44 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:24:44 -0600 Subject: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! In-Reply-To: References: <97556596-55e9-cb75-b72b-05e322a3aa7b@ieee.org> Message-ID: On 12/31/2019 11:19 AM, Mark Darvill via cctalk wrote: > It is and that would have been a very expensive sandwich? I am sorry for being the root cause of something to talk about off the usual topics! > > Back to Classic Computers please?. :) > > Mark A pleasant diversion on this last day of the year. Happy New Year's Eve all!? (for those not over the timezone far enough to be in the New Year already...) Hopefully I'll boot my PDP-11/53 soon.? I just have to get up the nerve to test the Power supply. Now we're back on topic.? :D -- John H. Reinhardt PRRT&HS #8909 C&O HS #11530 N-Trak #7566 From t.gardner at computer.org Tue Dec 31 12:34:27 2019 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 10:34:27 -0800 Subject: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes References: Message-ID: <002301d5c008$ef5ba650$ce12f2f0$@computer.org> Palo Alto Fry?s closing . Sad, but not the end of an era ? apparently the loss of lease I remember visiting an early Fry?s (first?) in Sunnyvale (541 Lakeside Dr?, near Oakmead and around the corner from Shugart Associates where I then worked). I marveled at the selection of steaks, diet cokes, resistors, capacitors, ICs, etc. They had partially converted a supermarket into an electronics store but I heard they at first kept the food to keep some cash flow. I think I bought steaks J The engineers and technicians at Shugart more than once ran over there to get breadboard parts. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 31 12:50:07 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 10:50:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> ? > > I know!!! 69? for a sandwich lunch??? Talk about price gouging! Used to be able to feed a family roast beef and a decent burgundy, instead of egg and cress with apple juice. . . . and burger places tried to hide whether they had soy and sawdust in their "impossible" soylent burgers. >> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 8:16 AM Mark Darvill via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Good news! After a bit of a configuration nightmare (it is more >>> complicated than Worldpay) I have got it working. >>> >>> I will test a couple more times and then figure out what we need to do to >>> make it live. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>> >>>> From: Vale Coaches - Office >>>> Subject: Your Vale Coaches order has been received! >>>> Date: 31 December 2019 at 14:11:32 GMT >>>> To: mark.darvill at mac.com >>>> Reply-To: Vale Coaches >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you for your order >>>> Hi Mark, >>>> >>>> Just to let you know ? we've received your order #10075, and it is now >>> being processed: >>>> [Order #10075] (31st December 2019) >>>> >>>> Product Quantity Price >>>> RHS Cardiff Flower Show - Saturday 18th April 2020 >>>> Pickup Point: >>>> Sturminster Newton >>>> Packed Lunch Sandwich: >>>> Egg & cress on brown >>>> Packed Lunch Drink: >>>> Apple Juice >>>> 1 ?69.00 >>>> Subtotal: ?69.00 >>>> Payment method: Barclaycard >>>> Total: ?69.00 >>>> Billing address >>>> >>>> Mark Darvill >>>> Test >>>> April Cotatge >>>> Sackmore Lane, Marnhull >>>> Sturminster Newton >>>> Dorset >>>> DT10 1PN >>>> 01258 820871 >>>> mark.darvill at mac.com >>>> Thanks for using valecoaches.com! >>>> >>>> Vale Coaches >>>> Site built by Marnhull Computers Marnhull Computers >> mark at marnhullcomputers.com> >>> > > -- > John H. Reinhardt > PRRT&HS #8909 > C&O HS #11530 > N-Trak #7566 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 31 13:24:27 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:24:27 -0800 Subject: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes In-Reply-To: <002301d5c008$ef5ba650$ce12f2f0$@computer.org> References: <002301d5c008$ef5ba650$ce12f2f0$@computer.org> Message-ID: On 12/31/19 10:34 AM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > Palo Alto Fry?s closing > > . Sad, but not the end of an era ? apparently the loss of lease > > > I remember visiting an early Fry?s (first?) in Sunnyvale (541 > Lakeside Dr?, near Oakmead and around the corner from Shugart > Associates where I then worked). I marveled at the selection of > steaks, diet cokes, resistors, capacitors, ICs, etc. They had > partially converted a supermarket into an electronics store but I > heard they at first kept the food to keep some cash flow. I think I > bought steaks J The engineers and technicians at Shugart more than > once ran over there to get breadboard parts. I was at the grand opening of the Sunnyvale Fry's. A great place to purchase Canfield's Diet Chocolate Fudge soda, which was all the rage back then. A friend purchased it by the caselot. I remember chatting a bit with John Fry who saw the sales margins in electronics and compared them to food sales his family's supermarket chain. He figured that the marketing that worked so well in the grocery business would be a winner in electronics sales. Because of his family's connections, he could also offer popular food items. High volume and low margins. Sigh. It was a time when factory reps would come and give live presentations of their good stuff. And rows and rows of pegboard with plastic bags of components with red-and-white labels. At some point they got some sort of deal with Everex (which was in Fremont) and they had piles of that stuff cheap for sale. In that department, however, their tech support was close to non-existent. ("Doesn't work? Here's another one to try" approach). But then, the area had lots of surplus electronics places back then, probably because things were actually manufactured in the Santa Clara valley. The Palo Alto store was after my time. --Chuck From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Dec 31 14:41:28 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 12:41:28 -0800 Subject: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes In-Reply-To: <002301d5c008$ef5ba650$ce12f2f0$@computer.org> References: <002301d5c008$ef5ba650$ce12f2f0$@computer.org> Message-ID: On Dec 31, 2019, at 10:34 AM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > > Palo Alto Fry?s closing . Sad, but not the end of an era ? apparently the loss of lease When I last visited a couple months ago, the one in Wilsonville, Oregon hadn?t done any restocking to speak of (except a couple video games) for months. The shelves were largely bare, and all the places they used to store excess stock were empty. I might be down that way in a few weeks, if so I?ll try to check on the status of the store. I know in October there was a news article or two claiming they were in the process of restocking, but based on my last visit, they seem dead. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 31 15:08:54 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 13:08:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes In-Reply-To: References: <002301d5c008$ef5ba650$ce12f2f0$@computer.org> Message-ID: Fry's says that they are doing fine. BUT, that they are moving to a "consignment" model - they now plan to pay their suppliers only AFTER the merchandise sells. Or at least that is what they are telling their creditors. They could revitalize the stores, if they would add Jolt Cola, Canfield's Diet Chocolate Fudge soda, potato chips, cookies, toothpaste, rosin-core lead solder, and electronic components. Maybe even collaborate with Fat-Brain to open a computer literacy bookstore. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com >> Palo Alto Fry???s closing . Sad, but not the end of an era ??? apparently the loss of lease > > When I last visited a couple months ago, the one in Wilsonville, Oregon hadn???t done any restocking to speak of (except a couple video games) for months. The shelves were largely bare, and all the places they used to store excess stock were empty. I might be down that way in a few weeks, if so I???ll try to check on the status of the store. I know in October there was a news article or two claiming they were in the process of restocking, but based on my last visit, they seem dead. > > Zane From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Dec 31 15:28:16 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 13:28:16 -0800 Subject: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1MfprR-1jNMVN4Btx-00gIGd@mrelay.perfora.net> -------- Original message --------From: Fred Cisin?Fry's says that they are doing fine.BUT, that they are moving to a "consignment" model - they now plan to pay their suppliers only AFTER the merchandise sells.Or at least that is what they are telling their creditors.They could revitalize the stores, if they would add Jolt Cola, Canfield's Diet Chocolate Fudge soda, potato chips, cookies, toothpaste, rosin-core lead solder, and electronic components.? Maybe even collaborate with Fat-Brain to open a computer literacy bookstore.--No. They are closing:http://www.tonetoatl.com/2019/12/Frys-Electronics-Closed-Duluth-Gwinnett-Place.htmlI really can't see any manufacturers lining up behind the Fry's BS. They just don't have the foot traffic for it.?Now as Fred says if they went back to filling a niche that is very empty (i.e. an electronics part retailer with stock of hard to get goods on hand) that may work. I hate having to order 50 capacitors from China everytime I need one....? From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Dec 31 15:32:42 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 13:32:42 -0800 Subject: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes In-Reply-To: <1MfprR-1jNMVN4Btx-00gIGd@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <1MfprR-1jNMVN4Btx-00gIGd@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <016901d5c021$d6407560$82c16020$@net> Re-sending for legibility... >Fry's says that they > are doing fine.BUT, that they are moving to a "consignment" model - > they now plan to pay their suppliers only AFTER the merchandise > sells.Or at least that is what they are telling their creditors.They > could revitalize the stores, if they would add Jolt Cola, Canfield's > Diet Chocolate Fudge soda, potato chips, cookies, toothpaste, rosin- > core lead solder, and electronic components. Maybe even collaborate > with Fat-Brain to open a computer literacy bookstore.-- No. They are closing: http://www.tonetoatl.com/2019/12/Frys-Electronics-Closed-Duluth-Gwinnett-Place.html I really can't see any manufacturers lining up behind the Fry's BS. They just don't have the foot traffic for it. Now as Fred says if they went back to filling a niche that is very empty (i.e. an electronics part retailer with stock of hard to get goods on hand) that may work. I hate having to order 50 capacitors from China every time I need one.... From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Dec 31 15:53:16 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 13:53:16 -0800 Subject: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes In-Reply-To: <016901d5c021$d6407560$82c16020$@net> References: <1MfprR-1jNMVN4Btx-00gIGd@mrelay.perfora.net> <016901d5c021$d6407560$82c16020$@net> Message-ID: On 12/31/2019 1:32 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Re-sending for legibility... > >> Fry's says that they >> are doing fine.BUT, that they are moving to a "consignment" model - >> they now plan to pay their suppliers only AFTER the merchandise >> sells.Or at least that is what they are telling their creditors.They >> could revitalize the stores, if they would add Jolt Cola, Canfield's >> Diet Chocolate Fudge soda, potato chips, cookies, toothpaste, rosin- >> core lead solder, and electronic components. Maybe even collaborate >> with Fat-Brain to open a computer literacy bookstore.-- > > No. They are closing: http://www.tonetoatl.com/2019/12/Frys-Electronics-Closed-Duluth-Gwinnett-Place.html > > > I really can't see any manufacturers lining up behind the Fry's BS. They just don't have the foot traffic for it. Now as Fred says if they went back to filling a niche that is very empty (i.e. an electronics part retailer with stock of hard to get goods on hand) that may work. I hate having to order 50 capacitors from China every time I need one.... They actually were changing to a way of flooring the merchandise closer to the food industry.? Many things on the shelf in larger supermarkets are actually managed and stocked at the expense of the people who have the shelfspace.? So that becomes critical. Years ago a drug chain called Zody's used the same method, but for entire areas of stock, not by item. A friend had a pitabread business and went into Ralphs (Krogers in Southern ,CA).? The buyin for about 2' of space was about $500,000 then you had to supply the stock.? Payback came to you when you shipped more to them than they returned or discarded stale (or put in markdown). Frito-Lay as well as some of the alcohol aisle actually send in personnel twice a day to do the stocking.? The store staff doesn't touch it. Anyway it doesn't seem to be happening, i heard the story Fred has 3 months ago, and it doesn't take this long to do the deal if it's going to work. Years ago when they expanded a friend who had a similar electronics business said that the electronics side of Fry's was done with large amounts of debt.? My friend's store was well positioned to expand, but they wouldn't do the debt model Fry's did. That said, either Fry's is profitable, or they've paid down their debt to where they can withstand what is going on.? If it were a business with a large debt load the banks wouldn't let them take a week, must less 3 months and counting to do what is going on. And those 100,000sf store rent keeps on ticking full or empty. thanks Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 31 16:02:13 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 14:02:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes In-Reply-To: References: <1MfprR-1jNMVN4Btx-00gIGd@mrelay.perfora.net> <016901d5c021$d6407560$82c16020$@net> Message-ID: Who else, but Fry's, has had the impact that third parties have posted Fry's employment applications? jhttp://homepage.smc.edu/engfer_mark/frys.htm From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Dec 31 16:15:28 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 14:15:28 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie (was: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes) In-Reply-To: <016901d5c021$d6407560$82c16020$@net> References: <016901d5c021$d6407560$82c16020$@net> Message-ID: <01ACA4DC-9A63-42CC-9061-91AAA485672C@snowmoose.com> > On Dec 31, 2019, at 13:32, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > ?I hate having to order 50 capacitors from China every time I need one.... > I ordered two from Mouser this week. alan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 31 16:25:01 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 14:25:01 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: <01ACA4DC-9A63-42CC-9061-91AAA485672C@snowmoose.com> References: <016901d5c021$d6407560$82c16020$@net> <01ACA4DC-9A63-42CC-9061-91AAA485672C@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 12/31/19 2:15 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Dec 31, 2019, at 13:32, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> >> ?I hate having to order 50 capacitors from China every time I need one.... >> > > I ordered two from Mouser this week. Dunno--after all, you're simply moving your purchasing closer to the point of production when you order from China. So that makes sense to cut out the middleman. --Chuck From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Dec 31 16:28:34 2019 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 16:28:34 -0600 Subject: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes In-Reply-To: References: <1MfprR-1jNMVN4Btx-00gIGd@mrelay.perfora.net> <016901d5c021$d6407560$82c16020$@net> Message-ID: Two brilliant minds on this list drinking Canfield's Diet Chocolate Fudge soda? Guess I need to hop on this mystery band wagon. Our Fry's in Austin has also suffered over months of almost nothing on shelves. Definitely doesn't have the feeling of a company doing well. They've lost several sales from friends and myself that would have bought an item if we could see it in person and had it "now". Ashame they (and online shopping?) knocked out almost all the other retailers and competition from town. From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Dec 31 16:42:00 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 14:42:00 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 31, 2019, at 14:25, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 12/31/19 2:15 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>>> On Dec 31, 2019, at 13:32, Ali via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> ?I hate having to order 50 capacitors from China every time I need one.... >>> >> >> I ordered two from Mouser this week. > > Dunno--after all, you're simply moving your purchasing closer to the > point of production when you order from China. So that makes sense to > cut out the middleman. Shipping just two capacitors from Texas to Seattle seems silly enough. Shipping them from China seems really silly to me. Distribution (middlemen) is how a lot of the people earn a living. alan From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Dec 31 16:43:59 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 14:43:59 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie (was: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes) In-Reply-To: <01ACA4DC-9A63-42CC-9061-91AAA485672C@snowmoose.com> References: <016901d5c021$d6407560$82c16020$@net> <01ACA4DC-9A63-42CC-9061-91AAA485672C@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <017601d5c02b$cc1f55b0$645e0110$@net> > > I ordered two from Mouser this week. > > alan And paid in much in S&H (if not more) to buy the two from Mouser then it would have cost to get 50 from China... ;) Honestly, if this is your livelihood and it has to be here fast Mouser (or digikeys or any of the other guys) works. Or if you are doing a big order so the cost of the items vs. shipping balances out that?s fine too. But when I need two caps for $0.20 and have to pay $7.95 for S&H to repair a hobby item I rather wait for it to come from China and just get a bunch of extra. I would, however, gladly drive out to a local store and pay $3-4 to pick up the same two caps NOW (and peruse for some nonessentials since I am already there ;)). Just me I guess... From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Dec 31 16:49:15 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 14:49:15 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie (was: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes) In-Reply-To: <017601d5c02b$cc1f55b0$645e0110$@net> References: <017601d5c02b$cc1f55b0$645e0110$@net> Message-ID: <67B0B14B-F611-452E-AEB7-0AD231A4569F@snowmoose.com> > On Dec 31, 2019, at 14:44, Ali wrote: > > ? >> >> >> I ordered two from Mouser this week. >> >> alan > > And paid in much in S&H (if not more) to buy the two from Mouser then it would have cost to get 50 from China... ;) And what would I do with 50 when I need 2? I paid $8 shipping. I?d pay close to that in gas to drive to the local Fry?s. alan From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Dec 31 16:49:52 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 14:49:52 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4268691c-db26-1fe1-554e-d3bba6d7c7e1@jwsss.com> On 12/31/2019 2:42 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > Shipping just two capacitors from Texas to Seattle seems silly enough. Shipping them from China seems really silly to me. I usually pay zero for such shipping from China.? Sometimes 12 bucks priority mail for domestic.? A bubble envelope from China takes 6 weeks, but they seldom charge for shipping.? Varieties of reasons for that won't go into them here. thanks Jim From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Dec 31 16:52:10 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 14:52:10 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 31, 2019, at 2:42 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> On Dec 31, 2019, at 14:25, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> ?On 12/31/19 2:15 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>>>> On Dec 31, 2019, at 13:32, Ali via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> ?I hate having to order 50 capacitors from China every time I need one.... >>>> >>> >>> I ordered two from Mouser this week. >> >> Dunno--after all, you're simply moving your purchasing closer to the >> point of production when you order from China. So that makes sense to >> cut out the middleman. > > Shipping just two capacitors from Texas to Seattle seems silly enough. Shipping them from China seems really silly to me. > > Distribution (middlemen) is how a lot of the people earn a living. Unfortunately the lack of actual electronics parts places in town mean that shopping online is the only option. We used to have multiple options in the area, they slowly disappeared, including Rat Shack. Fry?s is the only option that I?m aware of left. On an interesting note, I read an article recently, that popped up in my financial news. Delivery services have reached the breaking point in the cities, due to the amount of deliveries, and the lack of parking. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 31 16:53:32 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 14:53:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie (was: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes) In-Reply-To: <67B0B14B-F611-452E-AEB7-0AD231A4569F@snowmoose.com> References: <017601d5c02b$cc1f55b0$645e0110$@net> <67B0B14B-F611-452E-AEB7-0AD231A4569F@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: >> And paid in much in S&H (if not more) to buy the two from Mouser then >> it would have cost to get 50 from China... ;) On Tue, 31 Dec 2019, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > And what would I do with 50 when I need 2? > I paid $8 shipping. I?d pay close to that in gas to drive to the local Fry?s. Does Fry's have any capacitors? Or do we need to time travel back 40 years? From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Dec 31 17:02:10 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:02:10 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie (was: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes) In-Reply-To: References: <017601d5c02b$cc1f55b0$645e0110$@net> <67B0B14B-F611-452E-AEB7-0AD231A4569F@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <8e736b1b-a165-c149-fddc-cb17339064b8@snowmoose.com> On 12/31/19 2:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> And paid in much in S&H (if not more) to buy the two from Mouser then >>> it would have cost to get 50 from China... ;) > On Tue, 31 Dec 2019, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> And what would I do with 50 when I need 2? >> I paid $8 shipping. I?d pay close to that in gas to drive to the local >> Fry?s. > > Does Fry's have any capacitors? I would bet there is a more of a chance that they have something like that that sells relatively slowly. > Or do we need to time travel back 40 years? Even say 5 years, I'd say so. It always surprised me how much of that stuff that they continued to stock. But I don't know whether they would have had the 33 uF 25V tantalum ones that I need for the Motor Driver board on the Wangtek 5099EN24 QIC tape drive that I powered up for its first time in a dozen years last weekend. In the Seattle area, I would actually look for parts like that locally at Vetco. But I live on the other side of Puget Sound from Seattle and that adds $20 a trip for me to drive there. alan From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Dec 31 17:03:52 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:03:52 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie (was: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes) In-Reply-To: References: <017601d5c02b$cc1f55b0$645e0110$@net> <67B0B14B-F611-452E-AEB7-0AD231A4569F@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <017701d5c02e$926aa970$b73ffc50$@net> > Does Fry's have any capacitors? > > Or do we need to time travel back 40 years? No idea Fred, but if they don't, they should put some on the shelves. With all the competition gone I would think a store catering to such needs locally would do well in the right areas. Until of course Amazon starts stocking electronic parts, cables, etc. in their "fresh" stores. One thing people never discuss is the environmental cost of all the shipping we are doing. All those boxes, cars, gas, etc. aren't really free... From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Dec 31 17:03:52 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:03:52 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie (was: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes) In-Reply-To: <67B0B14B-F611-452E-AEB7-0AD231A4569F@snowmoose.com> References: <017601d5c02b$cc1f55b0$645e0110$@net> <67B0B14B-F611-452E-AEB7-0AD231A4569F@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <017801d5c02e$92b19d80$b814d880$@net> > And what would I do with 50 when I need 2? Save them for the next project? > I paid $8 shipping. I?d pay close to that in gas to drive to the local > Fry?s. Your local Fry's must be far or you got a serious gas guzzler there... My point is that when there was a RadioShack on every corner you could get a part easy and with minimum fuss (and only $0.30 in gas). From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Dec 31 17:15:11 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:15:11 -0800 Subject: Ordering parts onesie twosie (was: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes) In-Reply-To: <017801d5c02e$92b19d80$b814d880$@net> References: <017601d5c02b$cc1f55b0$645e0110$@net> <67B0B14B-F611-452E-AEB7-0AD231A4569F@snowmoose.com> <017801d5c02e$92b19d80$b814d880$@net> Message-ID: <9ccf1ec5-4893-23da-be28-5f9095f71fde@snowmoose.com> On 12/31/19 3:03 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> And what would I do with 50 when I need 2? > > Save them for the next project? My garage is full of stuff saved for the next project. At some point one runs out of space. Or recollection that one bought 48 extra capacitors years ago. > >> I paid $8 shipping. I?d pay close to that in gas to drive to the local >> Fry?s. > > > Your local Fry's must be far or you got a serious gas guzzler there... My point is that when there was a RadioShack on every corner you could get a part easy and with minimum fuss (and only $0.30 in gas). 20 miles away at $3.50/gallon and 23 city mpg gets one roughly close to $8. A RadioShack selling capacitors on every corner made more sense when electronics devices were made from more components that could be replaced individually using inexpensive equipment. It is more of a specialty product now. alan From spam at hell.org Tue Dec 31 22:24:03 2019 From: spam at hell.org (Mike Begley) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 04:24:03 +0000 Subject: New Member Introduction Message-ID: Hello! New member to cctalk here. I am located in Seattle, and in the past have worked for a couple largish companies in the Seattle area you've heard of. Through the 80s and 90s I had accumulated a fairly sizable collection of classic (and not yet classic) computers. Mostly this was along two branches of machines - Atari 8 bit computers and 80s-era minicomputers & workstations, including a couple smaller VAXen, a PDP-8 and a large stack of HP9000/300 machines. Also I had a couple of no-name S-100 machines and a pretty nice one from California Computer Systems. When I moved from the Midwest following college I had to abandon much of that collection. In the last several years I have started to reconstitute that collection, at least in the basics. I'm still looking for a genuine VT100 (or stretch goal - VT278), and in 2020 I'm planning to finally bring up a simulated VAX cluster using Raspberry Pis and SIMH, since original hardware is pretty much impossible to find anymore (and fragile when you can find it). It's frustrating to be hunting for things I had three or four of at one point... Happy to be here, -mike begley spam at hell.org From spam at hell.org Tue Dec 31 22:38:35 2019 From: spam at hell.org (Mike Begley) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 04:38:35 +0000 Subject: One of Bay Area's last Fry's Electronics stores closes In-Reply-To: References: <002301d5c008$ef5ba650$ce12f2f0$@computer.org> Message-ID: >> >> Palo Alto Fry?s closing > . Sad, but not the end of an era ? apparently the loss of lease > > When I last visited a couple months ago, the one in Wilsonville, Oregon hadn?t done any restocking to speak of > (except a couple video games) for months. The shelves were largely bare, and all the places they used to store > excess stock were empty. I might be down that way in a few weeks, if so I?ll try to check on the status of the > store. I know in October there was a news article or two claiming they were in the process of restocking, > but based on my last visit, they seem dead. I went to the one outside Seattle a few months ago, and the shelves were perhaps 15-20% full, at best. It was kinda creepy and kinda sad. We chatted with one of the stockers, and they said that they just didn't have the traffic to bring in inventory, so it's the chicken & the egg problem. They're were also allocating part of the store to do online fulfillment, and just trying to ramp up their online presence. I doubt they'll last until spring. There's no way they can afford the rent, inventory and payroll on the amount of customers they have these days. -mike spam at hell.org