From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Nov 1 07:09:14 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 08:09:14 -0400 Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2018-10-31 18:25, Tom Manos via cctalk wrote: > I have a couple of these as well. The one to have way back when was made by > AST. It had 4 16550 UARTS and could run them all at whatever speed you > wanted. > > There was even a public domain program/device driver for it, for UNIX on > x86 called FAS (Final Async Solution) that worked very well. I still have a > copy of it if anyone is running real serial on period hardware and SVR2/3 > and maybe others. > > I ran these boards for a couple years on my public access UNIX system. We had those in every PC in the office. There were versions with 4 or 8 UARTs, IIRC, four UARTs had to share one interrupt, but the Linux/ESIX/Interactive driver for them was working pretty well ... Made PCs suddenly useful ;-) From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Nov 1 07:09:14 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 08:09:14 -0400 Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2018-10-31 18:25, Tom Manos via cctalk wrote: > I have a couple of these as well. The one to have way back when was made by > AST. It had 4 16550 UARTS and could run them all at whatever speed you > wanted. > > There was even a public domain program/device driver for it, for UNIX on > x86 called FAS (Final Async Solution) that worked very well. I still have a > copy of it if anyone is running real serial on period hardware and SVR2/3 > and maybe others. > > I ran these boards for a couple years on my public access UNIX system. We had those in every PC in the office. There were versions with 4 or 8 UARTs, IIRC, four UARTs had to share one interrupt, but the Linux/ESIX/Interactive driver for them was working pretty well ... Made PCs suddenly useful ;-) From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Nov 1 09:28:05 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:28:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: PDP, Data General & more (TV show Maniac) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2018, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > TV show Maniac (available on netflix), S1E2 @28.48, at least a PDP 11/40, > 11/05 or 04, RX01, PDP-8, and 2 Data General Eclipse, DEC doc binders, and > maybe an IBM front panel and more. What is a PDP-8/1 XA ? Christian From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Nov 1 11:14:49 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 10:14:49 -0600 Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63c27b38-2bf6-65cd-47f1-91b2feadaeb0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/01/2018 06:09 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > We had those in every PC in the office. > > Made PCs suddenly useful ;-) Can I ask what you were doing that needed more than two serial ports? Especially "every PC in the office". I can see a few special purpose computers. But I can't imagine a use case for having them in every PC. #curious -- Grant. . . . unix || die From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 11:15:12 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 12:15:12 -0400 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: > So, what is this i960-based card for? They were the routers. At the core nodes of the network, there would be a big RS/6000s (very early POWER1 types) that would each do about 4-5 high speed interfaces (FDDI, HSSI, and 10base2). Each interface was one of these cards, so each of the big RS/6000s would have about 4-5 of these cards. IBM tried to commercialize the design, but it was doomed - the routing engines were very fast, but the internet quickly outgrew the architecture of the engines, and they apparently needed a complete redesign to compete. IBM did release very few of these RS/6000s to the public (I think RS/6000-320Hs with a fancy tag - machine type 6767?). I have only seen one of these routers in the wild, but most of the real NSFnet ones (I was decommissioning them, one time with a Sawzall because of some live tangled cables). > Could it be related to what you > say in your post? > > https://imgur.com/NIvQPBv Possibly related, but that card is not one of the NSFnet ones. -- Will From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Nov 1 11:24:49 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 10:24:49 -0600 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3d5a5c6d-9c5d-764b-ddf2-e74cd54af656@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/01/2018 10:15 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > I have only seen one of these routers in the wild I worked at a company years ago that ran a pair of IBM RS/6000 (the small beige desktop models, maybe a 43). They were running an IBM Firewall software product that I don't remember the name of. I think it ran on top of AIX 4.. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 1 12:29:12 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 10:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: <63c27b38-2bf6-65cd-47f1-91b2feadaeb0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <63c27b38-2bf6-65cd-47f1-91b2feadaeb0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: >> We had those in every PC in the office. >> Made PCs suddenly useful ;-) On Thu, 1 Nov 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Can I ask what you were doing that needed more than two serial ports? > Especially "every PC in the office". > I can see a few special purpose computers. But I can't imagine a use case > for having them in every PC. You put one into each of five computers, then you arrange them in a pentagram, with ten null-modem cables. Then you write software to make your net work. Or summon the dark overlord. From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Nov 1 13:04:35 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 14:04:35 -0400 Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: <63c27b38-2bf6-65cd-47f1-91b2feadaeb0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <63c27b38-2bf6-65cd-47f1-91b2feadaeb0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <221afd4c-efe9-f613-ec0a-be60cb4d33b9@e-bbes.com> On 2018-11-01 12:14, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 11/01/2018 06:09 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >> We had those in every PC in the office. >> >> Made PCs suddenly useful ;-) > > Can I ask what you were doing that needed more than two serial ports? > Especially "every PC in the office". We developed embedded systems, multiprocessor, and wrote software for them. None of them had ethernet, so plenty of serial lines were good to have for debugging, monitoring etc. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Nov 1 13:14:44 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 12:14:44 -0600 Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: References: <63c27b38-2bf6-65cd-47f1-91b2feadaeb0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <0794a725-819f-af72-8c0c-5a0d5e86a88e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/01/2018 11:29 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > You put one into each of five computers, then you arrange them in a > pentagram, with ten null-modem cables. I wondered if you were going to make a (full) mesh of the computers. Where full is dependent on the number of computers. > Then you write software to make your net work. Dare I ask? > Or summon the dark overlord. It depends if it's point up or point down. ;-) That is also predicated on a physical pentagram arrangement instead of a logical mesh of five machines in a row. ():-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Thu Nov 1 12:44:26 2018 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 17:44:26 +0000 Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: References: <63c27b38-2bf6-65cd-47f1-91b2feadaeb0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>, Message-ID: A company i worked for bought a small healthcare "utilization review" company in the @1983 and they had 5 pc's with just that configuration with contractor written software. We replaced it with a Microvax II. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 1, 2018, at 10:29, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> We had those in every PC in the office. >>> Made PCs suddenly useful ;-) > >> On Thu, 1 Nov 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> Can I ask what you were doing that needed more than two serial ports? Especially "every PC in the office". >> I can see a few special purpose computers. But I can't imagine a use case for having them in every PC. > > You put one into each of five computers, then you arrange them in a pentagram, with ten null-modem cables. > > Then you write software to make your net work. > Or summon the dark overlord. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 1 13:22:56 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 11:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: <221afd4c-efe9-f613-ec0a-be60cb4d33b9@e-bbes.com> References: <63c27b38-2bf6-65cd-47f1-91b2feadaeb0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <221afd4c-efe9-f613-ec0a-be60cb4d33b9@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: >> We had those in every PC in the office. >> Made PCs suddenly useful ;-) > Can I ask what you were doing that needed more than two serial ports? > Especially "every PC in the office". A modem, serial mouse, serial printer, serial "RS232" scanner, external drive (yes, they existed), serial control of CD cchanger (consider Kubik 240 disc carousel (SCSI, but serial disc change control)), serial EPROM programmer, serial drawing tablet, serial X10 controller, serial VOTRAX, logging of UPS, etc. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Nov 1 13:28:52 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 12:28:52 -0600 Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: References: <63c27b38-2bf6-65cd-47f1-91b2feadaeb0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <221afd4c-efe9-f613-ec0a-be60cb4d33b9@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 11/01/2018 12:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > A modem, > serial mouse, > serial printer, > serial "RS232" scanner, external drive (yes, they existed), serial > control of CD cchanger (consider Kubik 240 disc carousel (SCSI, but > serial disc change control)), serial EPROM programmer, serial drawing > tablet, serial X10 controller, serial VOTRAX, logging of UPS, etc. I absolutely agree that such bests of peripherally connected systems exist. I would be shocked to hear that "every PC in the office" was equipped as such. I do wonder how well software that used said peripherals dealt with COM ports above 4. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 1 13:38:20 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 11:38:20 -0700 Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: References: <63c27b38-2bf6-65cd-47f1-91b2feadaeb0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <221afd4c-efe9-f613-ec0a-be60cb4d33b9@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 11/1/18 11:28 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 11/01/2018 12:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> A modem, >> serial mouse, >> serial printer, >> serial "RS232" scanner, external drive (yes, they existed), serial >> control of CD cchanger (consider Kubik 240 disc carousel (SCSI, but >> serial disc change control)), serial EPROM programmer, serial drawing >> tablet, serial X10 controller, serial VOTRAX, logging of UPS, etc. > > I absolutely agree that such bests of peripherally connected systems > exist.? I would be shocked to hear that "every PC in the office" was > equipped as such. > > I do wonder how well software that used said peripherals dealt with COM > ports above 4. Generally, the software that dealt with that used its own configuration mechanism, as there's only room for 4 COM ports in the BIOS RAM area. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Nov 1 13:51:09 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 12:51:09 -0600 Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: References: <63c27b38-2bf6-65cd-47f1-91b2feadaeb0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <221afd4c-efe9-f613-ec0a-be60cb4d33b9@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <9239425d-a646-b78d-681a-7ca4197d69a9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/01/2018 12:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Generally, the software that dealt with that used its own configuration > mechanism, as there's only room for 4 COM ports in the BIOS RAM area. That's what I suspected. I'm referring to the client applications (not) knowing how to access COM5. I assume that they access a device managed by DOS / driver. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm also assuming that some software is written with a UI for choosing the COM port and only giving four options. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 1 13:52:46 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 11:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: References: <63c27b38-2bf6-65cd-47f1-91b2feadaeb0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <221afd4c-efe9-f613-ec0a-be60cb4d33b9@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: >> A modem, >> serial mouse, >> serial printer, >> serial "RS232" scanner, external drive (yes, they existed), serial control >> of CD changer (consider Kubik 240 disc carousel (SCSI, but serial disc >> change control)), serial EPROM programmer, serial drawing tablet, serial >> X10 controller, serial VOTRAX, logging of UPS, etc. > On Thu, 1 Nov 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I absolutely agree that such bests of peripherally connected systems exist. > I would be shocked to hear that "every PC in the office" was equipped as > such. OK, only one of the machines needs to do the UPS logging. Although etiquette calls for only one VOTRAX operating at a time, they all need to be connected. OR, the KUBIK was stackable! With four of them, and 4 serial ports, and 16 [wide] SCSI IDs (which poses a limitation), you could have 15 drives accessing from 960 discs. (including the entire Walnut Creek collection?) > I do wonder how well software that used said peripherals dealt with COM ports > above 4. SOME of those devices didn't need the full set of COM port capabilities. Similarly, connecting more than 4 floppy drives posed some minor software complications, particularly if accessing at BIOS (Int13h) level. A pentagram physical arrangement on a round or 5 sided table needs shortest cables. As to the dark overlord, . . . when Novell bought DRI, it was not because they wanted the content. They wanted the IP rights as a shield. Imagine, if Adam Osborne had been a little quicker in running out and buying a piece of the rubble of VisiCorp, it would have shielded Paperback software from Lotus. There is no better defense in an infringement lawsuit than owning rights to the code that the plaintiff's system infringed on. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Thu Nov 1 14:22:14 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 12:22:14 -0700 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: 6611 was the commercialized version. One early model was a standard 7012 desktop with the special cards. A later cost optimized version had a custom PowerPC backplane. There were some good pics of the nsfnet T3 racks I linked onto nekochan forums but that site is gone. Wish people would migrate back to Usenet. On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 9:15 AM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > So, what is this i960-based card for? > > They were the routers. At the core nodes of the network, there would > be a big RS/6000s (very early POWER1 types) that would each do about > 4-5 high speed interfaces (FDDI, HSSI, and 10base2). Each interface > was one of these cards, so each of the big RS/6000s would have about > 4-5 of these cards. > > IBM tried to commercialize the design, but it was doomed - the routing > engines were very fast, but the internet quickly outgrew the > architecture of the engines, and they apparently needed a complete > redesign to compete. IBM did release very few of these RS/6000s to the > public (I think RS/6000-320Hs with a fancy tag - machine type 6767?). > I have only seen one of these routers in the wild, but most of the > real NSFnet ones (I was decommissioning them, one time with a Sawzall > because of some live tangled cables). > > > Could it be related to what you > > say in your post? > > > > https://imgur.com/NIvQPBv > > Possibly related, but that card is not one of the NSFnet ones. > > -- > Will > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Nov 1 14:45:43 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 19:45:43 -0000 Subject: Anyone Have a Working DEC Pro 350? Message-ID: <002f01d4721b$7a7a35e0$6f6ea1a0$@ntlworld.com> Is there anyone who has a working DEC Pro 350 who would be prepared to probe a few pins on the system board with an oscilloscope? I'd like to understand what signals I should be expecting in the reset logic, which seems to be quite complex. Thanks Rob From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 1 15:06:16 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 13:06:16 -0700 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/1/18 12:22 PM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > There were some good pics of the nsfnet T3 racks I linked onto nekochan > forums but that site is gone. Wish people would migrate back to Usenet. Community fragmentation and reliance on unarchived forums is a Bad Thing. I wonder how much of value will be lost when Yahoo's unmigrated forums finally collapse or when G gets bored with all of the 'Usenet' groups they created and silently dump them. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 1 15:20:19 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 17:20:19 -0300 Subject: Whither Google Groups - was Re: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2018-11-01 5:06 p.m., Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 11/1/18 12:22 PM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > >> There were some good pics of the nsfnet T3 racks I linked onto nekochan >> forums but that site is gone. Wish people would migrate back to Usenet. > > Community fragmentation and reliance on unarchived forums is a Bad Thing. > I wonder how much of value will be lost when Yahoo's unmigrated forums finally collapse > or when G gets bored with all of the 'Usenet' groups they created and silently dump them. > > Groups is getting more and more buried in the UI. You have to really dig to browse there from the home page now. --T From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Nov 1 15:30:10 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 16:30:10 -0400 Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: References: <63c27b38-2bf6-65cd-47f1-91b2feadaeb0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <221afd4c-efe9-f613-ec0a-be60cb4d33b9@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <6858d1c1-9f9e-35c6-b577-9ee6bbd9dcdb@e-bbes.com> On 2018-11-01 14:28, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 11/01/2018 12:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> A modem, >> serial mouse, >> serial printer, >> serial "RS232" scanner, external drive (yes, they existed), serial >> control of CD cchanger (consider Kubik 240 disc carousel (SCSI, but >> serial disc change control)), serial EPROM programmer, serial drawing >> tablet, serial X10 controller, serial VOTRAX, logging of UPS, etc. > > I absolutely agree that such bests of peripherally connected systems > exist.? I would be shocked to hear that "every PC in the office" was > equipped as such. > > I do wonder how well software that used said peripherals dealt with COM > ports above 4. This machines were running Esix and Interactive Unix (and linux?) ... So no problems at all From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 1 16:36:59 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 14:36:59 -0700 Subject: IBM Xstation 140? Message-ID: <7797a8aa-75bf-40ba-4b00-728c8532720c@bitsavers.org> Wondering if this is an IBM Xstation 140 with token ring Wonder what processor it uses.. https://www.ebay.com/itm/273538296972 From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Nov 1 16:51:37 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 14:51:37 -0700 Subject: IBM Xstation 140? In-Reply-To: <7797a8aa-75bf-40ba-4b00-728c8532720c@bitsavers.org> References: <7797a8aa-75bf-40ba-4b00-728c8532720c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <207D165C-2236-4A7B-BF3E-BFF7B942A4CF@shiresoft.com> If I recall correctly the Xstation 120 (the first of them) used an 8086 (might have been an 80186). The big issue was that you couldn?t do anything with it because what was in ROM/FLASH was only smart enough to be able to TFTP the rest of the microcode (not terribly useful if you don?t have the image it wants to TFTP). I think the 140 fixed that (and is somewhat telling from all of the Intel flash parts on the board). But I don?t know what CPU it?s using. The IBM metal can is probably the graphics controller. TTFN - Guy > On Nov 1, 2018, at 2:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Wondering if this is an IBM Xstation 140 with token ring > > Wonder what processor it uses.. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/273538296972 > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 16:57:38 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 17:57:38 -0400 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: Right, thanks. 6611 is correct. I do not think the FDDI or HSSI cards made it into those. The RCS/RI twitter feed has some pictures of NSFnet racks and a F960 FDDI card. Those were from the GNJ node in Greensboro Junction, NC. Were those the pictures? https://twitter.com/RetroCompSocRI -- Will On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 3:22 PM Kevin Bowling wrote: > > 6611 was the commercialized version. One early model was a standard 7012 desktop with the special cards. A later cost optimized version had a custom PowerPC backplane. > > There were some good pics of the nsfnet T3 racks I linked onto nekochan forums but that site is gone. Wish people would migrate back to Usenet. > > On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 9:15 AM William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> >> > So, what is this i960-based card for? >> >> They were the routers. At the core nodes of the network, there would >> be a big RS/6000s (very early POWER1 types) that would each do about >> 4-5 high speed interfaces (FDDI, HSSI, and 10base2). Each interface >> was one of these cards, so each of the big RS/6000s would have about >> 4-5 of these cards. >> >> IBM tried to commercialize the design, but it was doomed - the routing >> engines were very fast, but the internet quickly outgrew the >> architecture of the engines, and they apparently needed a complete >> redesign to compete. IBM did release very few of these RS/6000s to the >> public (I think RS/6000-320Hs with a fancy tag - machine type 6767?). >> I have only seen one of these routers in the wild, but most of the >> real NSFnet ones (I was decommissioning them, one time with a Sawzall >> because of some live tangled cables). >> >> > Could it be related to what you >> > say in your post? >> > >> > https://imgur.com/NIvQPBv >> >> Possibly related, but that card is not one of the NSFnet ones. >> >> -- >> Will From edcross at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 17:01:33 2018 From: edcross at gmail.com (Ed C.) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 23:01:33 +0100 Subject: IBM Xstation 140? In-Reply-To: <207D165C-2236-4A7B-BF3E-BFF7B942A4CF@shiresoft.com> References: <7797a8aa-75bf-40ba-4b00-728c8532720c@bitsavers.org> <207D165C-2236-4A7B-BF3E-BFF7B942A4CF@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: RISC @ 33MHZ On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 10:51 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > If I recall correctly the Xstation 120 (the first of them) used an 8086 > (might have been an 80186). The big issue was that you couldn?t do > anything with it because what was in ROM/FLASH was only smart enough to be > able to TFTP the rest of the microcode (not terribly useful if you don?t > have the image it wants to TFTP). > > I think the 140 fixed that (and is somewhat telling from all of the Intel > flash parts on the board). But I don?t know what CPU it?s using. The IBM > metal can is probably the graphics controller. > > TTFN - Guy > > > > On Nov 1, 2018, at 2:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Wondering if this is an IBM Xstation 140 with token ring > > > > Wonder what processor it uses.. > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/273538296972 > > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 17:04:54 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 18:04:54 -0400 Subject: IBM Xstation 140? In-Reply-To: <207D165C-2236-4A7B-BF3E-BFF7B942A4CF@shiresoft.com> References: <7797a8aa-75bf-40ba-4b00-728c8532720c@bitsavers.org> <207D165C-2236-4A7B-BF3E-BFF7B942A4CF@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: The 120 also used a 34010 to handle the graphics, I think? It has been a long time... -- Will On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 5:51 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > > If I recall correctly the Xstation 120 (the first of them) used an 8086 (might have been an 80186). The big issue was that you couldn?t do anything with it because what was in ROM/FLASH was only smart enough to be able to TFTP the rest of the microcode (not terribly useful if you don?t have the image it wants to TFTP). > > I think the 140 fixed that (and is somewhat telling from all of the Intel flash parts on the board). But I don?t know what CPU it?s using. The IBM metal can is probably the graphics controller. > > TTFN - Guy > > > > On Nov 1, 2018, at 2:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > Wondering if this is an IBM Xstation 140 with token ring > > > > Wonder what processor it uses.. > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/273538296972 > > > From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Thu Nov 1 17:13:07 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:13:07 -0700 Subject: IBM Xstation 140? In-Reply-To: <207D165C-2236-4A7B-BF3E-BFF7B942A4CF@shiresoft.com> References: <7797a8aa-75bf-40ba-4b00-728c8532720c@bitsavers.org> <207D165C-2236-4A7B-BF3E-BFF7B942A4CF@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: 7010 Xstation 120 CPU Planar 8 MHz 80186 190-027-1 130 CPU Planar 12.5 MHz 80C186 190-027 140 CPU Planar 33 MHz LSI R33020 193-273 150 CPU Planar Motorola 88110 193-018 160 CPU Planar 66 MHz PowerPC 603 195-027 On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 2:51 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > > If I recall correctly the Xstation 120 (the first of them) used an 8086 (might have been an 80186). The big issue was that you couldn?t do anything with it because what was in ROM/FLASH was only smart enough to be able to TFTP the rest of the microcode (not terribly useful if you don?t have the image it wants to TFTP). > > I think the 140 fixed that (and is somewhat telling from all of the Intel flash parts on the board). But I don?t know what CPU it?s using. The IBM metal can is probably the graphics controller. > > TTFN - Guy > > > > On Nov 1, 2018, at 2:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > Wondering if this is an IBM Xstation 140 with token ring > > > > Wonder what processor it uses.. > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/273538296972 > > > From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Thu Nov 1 17:15:07 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:15:07 -0700 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, they are. There are reference to those machines in the various nsfnet written histories but not cross linkage to those great pictures. On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 2:57 PM William Donzelli wrote: > > Right, thanks. 6611 is correct. I do not think the FDDI or HSSI cards > made it into those. > > The RCS/RI twitter feed has some pictures of NSFnet racks and a F960 > FDDI card. Those were from the GNJ node in Greensboro Junction, NC. > Were those the pictures? > > https://twitter.com/RetroCompSocRI > > -- > Will > On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 3:22 PM Kevin Bowling wrote: > > > > 6611 was the commercialized version. One early model was a standard 7012 desktop with the special cards. A later cost optimized version had a custom PowerPC backplane. > > > > There were some good pics of the nsfnet T3 racks I linked onto nekochan forums but that site is gone. Wish people would migrate back to Usenet. > > > > On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 9:15 AM William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> > So, what is this i960-based card for? > >> > >> They were the routers. At the core nodes of the network, there would > >> be a big RS/6000s (very early POWER1 types) that would each do about > >> 4-5 high speed interfaces (FDDI, HSSI, and 10base2). Each interface > >> was one of these cards, so each of the big RS/6000s would have about > >> 4-5 of these cards. > >> > >> IBM tried to commercialize the design, but it was doomed - the routing > >> engines were very fast, but the internet quickly outgrew the > >> architecture of the engines, and they apparently needed a complete > >> redesign to compete. IBM did release very few of these RS/6000s to the > >> public (I think RS/6000-320Hs with a fancy tag - machine type 6767?). > >> I have only seen one of these routers in the wild, but most of the > >> real NSFnet ones (I was decommissioning them, one time with a Sawzall > >> because of some live tangled cables). > >> > >> > Could it be related to what you > >> > say in your post? > >> > > >> > https://imgur.com/NIvQPBv > >> > >> Possibly related, but that card is not one of the NSFnet ones. > >> > >> -- > >> Will From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 17:19:35 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 19:19:35 -0300 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: The machine type was 6611 and there where three model, the smallest was based on a 7011 the mid size one was based on a 7012 and the largest was based on a 7013. The base card is an Artic 960 card which is just a processor card with some memory that gets an application loaded on the fly.? The top interface card has a lot to do with determining what the function of the card sandwich is, there should be a X-Y type code on the back of the card that would define the interface.? They where used for all kinds of things like Synchronous communications, X25 and network accelerators.? Some of the interfaces cards used in the 6611 where unique to it and never made it to the "standard" RS/6000 line.? There was also a PCI version of the Artic 960 but by the time it came along the 6611 was long gone. Paul. On 2018-11-01 1:15 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> So, what is this i960-based card for? > They were the routers. At the core nodes of the network, there would > be a big RS/6000s (very early POWER1 types) that would each do about > 4-5 high speed interfaces (FDDI, HSSI, and 10base2). Each interface > was one of these cards, so each of the big RS/6000s would have about > 4-5 of these cards. > > IBM tried to commercialize the design, but it was doomed - the routing > engines were very fast, but the internet quickly outgrew the > architecture of the engines, and they apparently needed a complete > redesign to compete. IBM did release very few of these RS/6000s to the > public (I think RS/6000-320Hs with a fancy tag - machine type 6767?). > I have only seen one of these routers in the wild, but most of the > real NSFnet ones (I was decommissioning them, one time with a Sawzall > because of some live tangled cables). > >> Could it be related to what you >> say in your post? >> >> https://imgur.com/NIvQPBv > Possibly related, but that card is not one of the NSFnet ones. > > -- > Will From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 1 17:29:45 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:29:45 -0700 Subject: IBM Xstation 140? In-Reply-To: References: <7797a8aa-75bf-40ba-4b00-728c8532720c@bitsavers.org> <207D165C-2236-4A7B-BF3E-BFF7B942A4CF@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <6548ac9b-866e-4e43-1126-7953a684dc0a@bitsavers.org> On 11/1/18 3:13 PM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > 140 CPU Planar 33 MHz LSI R33020 193-273 http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/RS6000/193-273.txt From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 17:41:12 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 18:41:12 -0400 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: OK, I assumed the 6611s used the NSFnet type cards. Artic960s are different animals - but probably very similar in idea. My memory is hazy, but I think the NSFnet cards were referred to as Hawthornes. Somewhere around here I have one of the really early 386 based routing cards - a weird double height Microchannel card (the RS/6000s were RPQ'd with extra tall chassis to accommodate them). Anyway, I would like to get a 6611, but I do not think very many were made at all. -- Will On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 6:19 PM Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > The machine type was 6611 and there where three model, the smallest was > based on a 7011 the mid size one was based on a 7012 and the largest was > based on a 7013. > > The base card is an Artic 960 card which is just a processor card with > some memory that gets an application loaded on the fly. The top > interface card has a lot to do with determining what the function of the > card sandwich is, there should be a X-Y type code on the back of the > card that would define the interface. They where used for all kinds of > things like Synchronous communications, X25 and network accelerators. > Some of the interfaces cards used in the 6611 where unique to it and > never made it to the "standard" RS/6000 line. There was also a PCI > version of the Artic 960 but by the time it came along the 6611 was long > gone. > > Paul. > > > On 2018-11-01 1:15 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > >> So, what is this i960-based card for? > > They were the routers. At the core nodes of the network, there would > > be a big RS/6000s (very early POWER1 types) that would each do about > > 4-5 high speed interfaces (FDDI, HSSI, and 10base2). Each interface > > was one of these cards, so each of the big RS/6000s would have about > > 4-5 of these cards. > > > > IBM tried to commercialize the design, but it was doomed - the routing > > engines were very fast, but the internet quickly outgrew the > > architecture of the engines, and they apparently needed a complete > > redesign to compete. IBM did release very few of these RS/6000s to the > > public (I think RS/6000-320Hs with a fancy tag - machine type 6767?). > > I have only seen one of these routers in the wild, but most of the > > real NSFnet ones (I was decommissioning them, one time with a Sawzall > > because of some live tangled cables). > > > >> Could it be related to what you > >> say in your post? > >> > >> https://imgur.com/NIvQPBv > > Possibly related, but that card is not one of the NSFnet ones. > > > > -- > > Will > From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Nov 1 19:40:53 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 20:40:53 -0400 Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: <6858d1c1-9f9e-35c6-b577-9ee6bbd9dcdb@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <166d1dd9bc5-1ec1-15a7@webjas-vad084.srv.aolmail.net> somewhere we? have a? bunch? of? ISA? cards? that? are? like the? ? ports on my hp? time share? system? just? not? 16 ports...I seem? to remember? ?between? 4 and? 8...? and?they? were? ?for a? ?PC? type? machine? of? course? with the? ISA ports.? ? Although? seen? years? ago? I? think I? remember? which? ?shelf? rack they? got? ?crammed into.? - Anyone? remember? something? like? this? as? i? remember? there? are? enough? of? them? to? let? ?some? ?go. ? Ed#? at? SMECC ? ? wish I? remembered? more In a message dated 11/1/2018 1:30:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 2018-11-01 14:28, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 11/01/2018 12:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> A modem, >> serial mouse, >> serial printer, >> serial "RS232" scanner, external drive (yes, they existed), serial >> control of CD cchanger (consider Kubik 240 disc carousel (SCSI, but >> serial disc change control)), serial EPROM programmer, serial drawing >> tablet, serial X10 controller, serial VOTRAX, logging of UPS, etc. > > I absolutely agree that such bests of peripherally connected systems > exist.? I would be shocked to hear that "every PC in the office" was > equipped as such. > > I do wonder how well software that used said peripherals dealt with COM > ports above 4. This machines were running Esix and Interactive Unix (and linux?) ... So no problems at all From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 1 22:19:08 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 20:19:08 -0700 Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: <166d1dd9bc5-1ec1-15a7@webjas-vad084.srv.aolmail.net> References: <166d1dd9bc5-1ec1-15a7@webjas-vad084.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <25838420-9c9b-07c4-2201-1334f720c2e3@sydex.com> On 11/1/18 5:40 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > somewhere we have a bunch of ISA cards that are like the > ports on my hp time share system just not 16 ports...I seem to > remember between 4 and 8... and they were for a PC type > machine of course with the ISA ports. Although seen years > ago I think I remember which shelf rack they got crammed > into. - Anyone remember something like this? as i remember > there are enough of them to let some go. Ed# at SMECC While trying to clean out a bookcase today, I ran across an ALMAC/ARROW catalog--commercial supplier of everything from HP9000 systems, Sun Workstations, etc. At any rate, Digiboard was the big supplier of PC serial add-in boards. The PC/Xem supported up to 32 serial channels. Just leafing through the catalog, I ran across one item I'd never heard of--the NCR 3125 Notepad compauter 8.5x11 480x640 VGA-compatible LCD screen. I guess it might be called a "tablet" today. --Chuck From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 18:38:38 2018 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 19:38:38 -0400 Subject: PDP, Data General & more (TV show Maniac) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:00:15 -0400 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Re: PDP, Data General & more (TV show Maniac) > > Looks like a PDP-8/L to me, with a PC04 high-speed paper tape > punch/reader below it. > > -ethan > Like this 8/L? http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/pdp-8-l And the 11/05 above it? http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-1105 And the 11/35 above it? http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-11-35 And the 11/04 below it? http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-1103-analogic And the DG S/130 to the right of it? http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/data-general-eclipse-s-130 Michael Thompson From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Nov 2 02:35:50 2018 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 08:35:50 +0100 Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <20181031102723.GC6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20181102073549.GD6450@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 05:01:18AM -0700, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > Take it up with the Internet Archive. Not my circus, not my monkey. > I'm sorry for barking up the wrong tree :) I should know better than to shoot at the messenger. Cheers, Pontus. From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Nov 2 06:56:34 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 07:56:34 -0400 Subject: IBM Xstation 140? In-Reply-To: <6548ac9b-866e-4e43-1126-7953a684dc0a@bitsavers.org> References: <7797a8aa-75bf-40ba-4b00-728c8532720c@bitsavers.org> <207D165C-2236-4A7B-BF3E-BFF7B942A4CF@shiresoft.com> <6548ac9b-866e-4e43-1126-7953a684dc0a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4f655f1b-c09a-09c2-f1d8-59f3fe92f875@e-bbes.com> On 2018-11-01 18:29, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 11/1/18 3:13 PM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > >> 140 CPU Planar 33 MHz LSI R33020 193-273 > > http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/RS6000/193-273.txt So is this thing on ebay the 140? Probably would bite, still have the Eval Board for the R33020 and manuals somewhere ... From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 06:58:09 2018 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 07:58:09 -0400 Subject: PDP, Data General & more (TV show Maniac) Message-ID: > > From: Camiel Vanderhoeven > Subject: Re: PDP, Data General & more (TV show Maniac) > > Looks more like a model 30 to me; the model 40 panel has regular lamps > rather than the lights behind an overlay. > Like the 360 Model 30 panel on this page? http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/interesting_computer_items/ibm-control-panels You missed these MTI cluster storage servers http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/mti-storage-servers -- Michael Thompson From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 2 07:20:31 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 05:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: <20181102073549.GD6450@Update.UU.SE> References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <20181031102723.GC6450@Update.UU.SE> <20181102073549.GD6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 05:01:18AM -0700, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> >> Take it up with the Internet Archive. Not my circus, not my monkey. >> > > I'm sorry for barking up the wrong tree :) I should know better than > to shoot at the messenger. > No worries, I'm good at ducking. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 07:34:16 2018 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 08:34:16 -0400 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 14:29:18 -0700 > From: Eric Korpela > Subject: Re: i860: Re: modern stuff > > A Google search on Skybolt i860 produces interesting results. > >Additional realtime signal processing > > capability is provided by four Skybolt i860-based VMEbus single-board > > computers with 240 MFLOPS peak combined capacity. > > -------------- > > Remember when 240 MFLOPS was a lot? > That's the board that I have. Quad i860 on a 9Ux400 VME board. Its in a Sun 4/280 development system. -- Michael Thompson From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 2 09:49:30 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 07:49:30 -0700 Subject: IBM Xstation 140? In-Reply-To: <4f655f1b-c09a-09c2-f1d8-59f3fe92f875@e-bbes.com> References: <7797a8aa-75bf-40ba-4b00-728c8532720c@bitsavers.org> <207D165C-2236-4A7B-BF3E-BFF7B942A4CF@shiresoft.com> <6548ac9b-866e-4e43-1126-7953a684dc0a@bitsavers.org> <4f655f1b-c09a-09c2-f1d8-59f3fe92f875@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <63654526-90f4-5de5-c5f5-05b7802ced94@bitsavers.org> On 11/2/18 4:56 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > So is this thing on ebay the 140? Probably would bite, still have the > Eval Board for the R33020 and manuals somewhere ... > yes. I just bought an NCD19 from them, now I'm trying to find NCDware old enough to support it (it has a 68020). They bought a bunch of stuff from Univ of AZ and have been selling it off for a few months. Unfortunately, they split things up but they will deal. I bought a VME10 keyboard from them about 6 months ago then the rest finally showed up a week or two ago, so now I have a complete one with color monitor. They are the people I bought the Intel Paragon software from.. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 2 10:08:45 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2018 10:08:45 -0500 Subject: PDP, Data General & more (TV show Maniac) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5BDC687D.7060909@pico-systems.com> On 11/02/2018 06:58 AM, Michael Thompson via cctalk wrote: >> From: Camiel Vanderhoeven >> Subject: Re: PDP, Data General & more (TV show Maniac) >> >> Looks more like a model 30 to me; the model 40 panel has regular lamps >> rather than the lights behind an overlay. >> > Like the 360 Model 30 panel on this page? > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/interesting_computer_items/ibm-control-panels > > > There were two versions of the 360/30. The first 1000 units had that plastic overlay panel, the later 9000 units apparently had the more traditional 360-style panel with user-replaceable lamps. But, I can't find any pictures of one. The lamps had a pretty short life, the IBM FEs always left an ashtray with a dozen replacement lamps on the console when they visited, so the staff could replace the bulbs themselves as they went out. Jon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 10:50:56 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 11:50:56 -0400 Subject: PDP, Data General & more (TV show Maniac) In-Reply-To: <5BDC687D.7060909@pico-systems.com> References: <5BDC687D.7060909@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > There were two versions of the 360/30. The first 1000 units > had that plastic overlay panel, the later 9000 units > apparently had the more traditional 360-style panel with > user-replaceable lamps. > But, I can't find any pictures of one. And at least one dark panel one (currently in Endicott at the history center). A Goth 360. -- Will From info at cvmakerspace.ca Fri Nov 2 10:56:08 2018 From: info at cvmakerspace.ca (Columbia Valley Maker Space) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2018 08:56:08 -0700 Subject: PDP8/a Initial Power Up Message-ID: <27c485c4ae4ef3a32a0756739e85c28b@cvmakerspace.ca> Hello everyone - my first post, so be easy on me! I have just acquired a PDP8/a and a Remex punch tape reader. The unit starts up and displays some data on the displays, and that is about all I can tell you. I am going to do some googling about this, but I am looking for basic initial tests .... something I can enter via the keypad. I learnt some basic programming in 1978 on a PDP8, but that was the last time I touched one, so if you are going to suggest some tests, I need complete instructions. I don't know how to modify a memory location, let alone enter and check a program. I will pick all this back up very quickly and I do use computers in my work a lot - I am also an electronic hobby guy and have been for years. My point is I am OK with component level measurements, I have a scope and probes, etc. So there you go - hope to hear back form you guys. Cheers, Brian -- Brian McIntosh Columbia Valley Maker Space Communications Guy info at cvmakerspace.ca 250 270 0689 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 2 11:58:01 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 12:58:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP8/a Initial Power Up Message-ID: <20181102165801.7DC8B18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Columbia Valley Maker Space > The unit starts up and displays some data on the displays You're lucky that worked. Old power supplies need to be brought back to life in stages. > something I can enter via the keypad. ... if you are going to suggest > some tests, I need complete instructions. I don't know how to modify a > memory location, let alone enter and check a program. Find all the PDP-8/A documentation online that you can (e.g. Bitsavers) and download and read it; that will cover how to use the front panel. Noel From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 12:24:12 2018 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 13:24:12 -0400 Subject: PDP8/a Initial Power Up In-Reply-To: <20181102165801.7DC8B18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181102165801.7DC8B18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: http://manx-docs.org/details.php/1,439 some docs online, that might help Operators manual PDF ftp://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8a/EK-8A001-OP-002_PDP-8A_Operators_Handbook_Sep76.pdf and a concise bit that might give you some help too http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-45687.html On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 12:58 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > From: Columbia Valley Maker Space > > > The unit starts up and displays some data on the displays > > You're lucky that worked. Old power supplies need to be brought back to > life in stages. > > > something I can enter via the keypad. ... if you are going to suggest > > some tests, I need complete instructions. I don't know how to modify a > > memory location, let alone enter and check a program. > > Find all the PDP-8/A documentation online that you can (e.g. Bitsavers) and > download and read it; that will cover how to use the front panel. > > Noel From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri Nov 2 14:15:22 2018 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2018 20:15:22 +0100 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ons 2018-10-31 klockan 14:27 -0700 skrev Eric Korpela via cctalk: > The i860 did find some use in the radio astronomy world. > > Here's an excerpt from the 1998 annual report for the Arecibo > Observatory... > -------------- > Telescope pointing and realtime data acquisition are controlled using > a > network of VMEbus single-board computers running the VxWorks > operating > system kernel. Custom-built data acquisition devices (??backends??) > include > (1) a general purpose A/D system capable of sampling four analog > channels > at up to 10-MHz rates with programmable resolutions of 1 to 12 bits > per > sample per channel, (2) an ~interim! 50-MHz, 4096-lag Spectral Line > Correlator with programmable bandwidth from 195 kHz to 50 MHz, (3) a > 50-MHz > Radar Decoder, ~4! a 100-MHz Spectral Line Correlator being > developed, (5) > a 10-MHz bandwidth Pulsar Search/Timing Machine with up to 256 > channels, > and (6) a wideband continuum/polarimetry instrument being developed. > An S2 > VLBI system is also available. Additional realtime signal processing > capability is provided by four Skybolt i860-based VMEbus single-board > computers with 240 MFLOPS peak combined capacity. > -------------- > Remember when 240 MFLOPS was a lot? > Was the 1983-84 year multibus sky floating point card the first offering from Sky Computers ? Did anyone use those in an embedded and online floating-point realtime type of setting ? Or was they only used for off-line number-crunching ? Hrrm, i now know that SKY computers had a dual-port memory system for DEC LSI-11 computers (good if you have for example a really fast accessory) so the FFP wasnt the first thing for them. From sales at elecplus.com Fri Nov 2 14:18:47 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 14:18:47 -0500 Subject: 56K PCMCIA modems, NIB Message-ID: <00e601d472e0$e1d6f9b0$a584ed10$@com> https://www.elecshopper.com/compaq-317900-001-pc-card-pcmcia-modem-nib.html Any takers? Cindy Croxton --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri Nov 2 15:01:26 2018 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2018 21:01:26 +0100 Subject: IBM Xstation 140? In-Reply-To: <7797a8aa-75bf-40ba-4b00-728c8532720c@bitsavers.org> References: <7797a8aa-75bf-40ba-4b00-728c8532720c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: tor 2018-11-01 klockan 14:36 -0700 skrev Al Kossow via cctalk: > Wondering if this is an IBM Xstation 140 with token ring > > Wonder what processor it uses.. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/273538296972 > The seller has a seagate 4038 (ST-412) disk for sale. https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-SEAGATE-TECHNOLOGY-ST-4038-HARD-DISK-DRIVE-HDD/283230331379 I wonder... shape (have a DEC PRO and something which uses an ACB 4000 ie SCSI-MFM...) From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri Nov 2 15:02:51 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 13:02:51 -0700 Subject: IBM Xstation 140? In-Reply-To: <63654526-90f4-5de5-c5f5-05b7802ced94@bitsavers.org> References: <7797a8aa-75bf-40ba-4b00-728c8532720c@bitsavers.org> <207D165C-2236-4A7B-BF3E-BFF7B942A4CF@shiresoft.com> <6548ac9b-866e-4e43-1126-7953a684dc0a@bitsavers.org> <4f655f1b-c09a-09c2-f1d8-59f3fe92f875@e-bbes.com> <63654526-90f4-5de5-c5f5-05b7802ced94@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <180CB7C0-9B51-4825-BF81-35B9E8136659@eschatologist.net> On Nov 2, 2018, at 7:49 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > I bought a VME10 keyboard from them about 6 months ago > then the rest finally showed up a week or two ago, so now I have a complete one > with color monitor. Glad to see you got that, I was kind of bothered by the listing of the VME/10 not having a keyboard. Unfortunately the University pulled RAM from some systems for some reason, so the HP-Apollo 9000/425t that I got from them has no memory and it?s difficult to actually come by some. I sure wish someone had a an HP-Apollo 9000/400 series hardware reference with RAM board pinouts, whether scanned or in print? -- Chris From sales at elecplus.com Fri Nov 2 15:22:02 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 15:22:02 -0500 Subject: IBM Xstation 140? In-Reply-To: <180CB7C0-9B51-4825-BF81-35B9E8136659@eschatologist.net> References: <7797a8aa-75bf-40ba-4b00-728c8532720c@bitsavers.org> <207D165C-2236-4A7B-BF3E-BFF7B942A4CF@shiresoft.com> <6548ac9b-866e-4e43-1126-7953a684dc0a@bitsavers.org> <4f655f1b-c09a-09c2-f1d8-59f3fe92f875@e-bbes.com> <63654526-90f4-5de5-c5f5-05b7802ced94@bitsavers.org> <180CB7C0-9B51-4825-BF81-35B9E8136659@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <010c01d472e9$b79070b0$26b15210$@com> -----Original Message----- I sure wish someone had a an HP-Apollo 9000/400 series hardware reference with RAM board pinouts, whether scanned or in print? -- Chris Memory User-installable RAM boards provide the 425 with RAM in increments of 8, 16 and 32 Mbyte blocks. They have an Error Checking and Correcting (ECC) ability. Standard RAM is 8 Mbytes, expandable to 64 Mbytes for the 425t and 16 Mbytes expandable to 128 Mbytes for the 425s. RAM boards are used in pairs. There are eight sockets on the system board for four board pairs. RAM Upgrades are available as follows: two 4 Mbyte boards that add an 8 Mbyte block of memory. two 8 Mbyte boards that add a 16 Mbyte block of memory. two 16 Mbyte RAM boards that add a 32 Mbyte block of memory (for 425s only) For example, to obtain the maximum 64 Mbyte of RAM for the 425t would require four 16 Mbyte RAM Board pairs ( i.e. eight 8 Mbyte boards) inserted in the eight sockets. >From http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/9000_400/A2100-90600_HP_9000_425_Owners_Guide_Aug91.pdf If this is standard ECC memory, then I have plenty of it on hand. But HP was known to use some really funky looking memory. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri Nov 2 15:42:53 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 13:42:53 -0700 Subject: IBM Xstation 140? In-Reply-To: <010c01d472e9$b79070b0$26b15210$@com> References: <7797a8aa-75bf-40ba-4b00-728c8532720c@bitsavers.org> <207D165C-2236-4A7B-BF3E-BFF7B942A4CF@shiresoft.com> <6548ac9b-866e-4e43-1126-7953a684dc0a@bitsavers.org> <4f655f1b-c09a-09c2-f1d8-59f3fe92f875@e-bbes.com> <63654526-90f4-5de5-c5f5-05b7802ced94@bitsavers.org> <180CB7C0-9B51-4825-BF81-35B9E8136659@eschatologist.net> <010c01d472e9$b79070b0$26b15210$@com> Message-ID: On Nov 2, 2018, at 1:22 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > > Memory > User-installable RAM boards provide the 425 with RAM in increments of 8, 16 > From http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/9000_400/A2100-90600_HP_9000_425_Owners_Guide_Aug91.pdf Yes, I?ve read that, thanks. What I need is the actual *pinout* for the memory boards which is the sort of thing that?d be in a hardware reference manual rather than a user?s manual. (Along with pinouts for the DIO-II expansion slot.) > If this is standard ECC memory, then I have plenty of it on hand. But HP was known to use some really funky looking memory. They use standard *memory* on non-standard *boards*. The ICs are standard, for example in > a 4MB board uses nine 80ns 514256 ICs and a trio of 74AS1004 hex inverter-drivers. However, the boards are not SIMMs, they use a 72-pin header. My theory is that given they used the same ICs as everyone else, it should be easy to design and fabricate a SIMM adapter from the board pinout. This RAM also appears to have been used in the HP-9000/375 and /380, in case someone has a hardware reference manual for those. -- Chris From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Nov 2 18:43:22 2018 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 16:43:22 -0700 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > Was the 1983-84 year multibus sky floating point card the first > offering from Sky Computers ? > > Did anyone use those in an embedded and online floating-point realtime > type of setting ? Or was they only used for off-line number-crunching ? > Sky made the math coprocessor in early multibus and VME Sun 2 systems as well. I'm not aware of any embedded use of Sky FFPs -- Eric Korpela korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu AST:7731^29u18e3 From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Nov 2 18:56:09 2018 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 16:56:09 -0700 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 2:27 PM Eric Korpela wrote: > > I also seem to recall that the SERENDIP III SETI spectrometer used i860 > and Austek A41102 FFT processors. I'm pretty sure SERENDIP IV used i960 > and Xylinx FPGAs to do the FFTs. I'll look at the boards tomorrow. > I was wrong on both counts. SERENDIP III didn't have a CPU on the board, but had a state machine on one of the FPGAs to control storage into and retrieval from the memory. And SERENDIP IV did use the A41102 FFT processors. Apparently, SERENDIP V.v was the first that did its FFTs in the FPGA. Since then (SERENDIP VI) we've moved to GPUs, but that's less than 10 years old so I shouldn't even mention it. Here's the obligatory board porn. (Yes, SERENDIP III was wire wrap). https://purcell.ssl.berkeley.edu/~korpela/gif/SERENDIPIII.jpg (that's the whole thing) https://purcell.ssl.berkeley.edu/~korpela/gif/SERENDIPIV.jpg (that's 1 of 20 boards) From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 18:57:57 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 19:57:57 -0400 Subject: ROLM 1601 (RuggedNova) 1970 Brochure Message-ID: For those interested in Rolm / Data General Nova Minicomputers I have scanned the hard-to-find Rolm Corp Rugged Nova 1601 brochure from 1970. I also scanned what price and module docs I have and uploaded them all here: https://www.vintagecomputer.net/ROLM/1601/ I don't believe this has been uploaded by anyone yet. Bill From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 20:09:24 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 01:09:24 +0000 Subject: How to work out unknown PSU replacement Message-ID: Hi folks, This week I managed to get my paws on a machine that I only ever saw in ?coming up!? type magazine articles in the mid-80s. It?s made by a UK manufacturer of Viewdata set top boxes and home micro modems called Tandata who were a split from Tangerine, the company that gave us the Microtan 65 and eventually the Oric 1 and Oric Atmos. Documentation on the Tandata PA is zero, if you search for it you get my Binary Dinosaurs page and nothing else so tonight I set about trying to work out the power inputs from its 4 pin socket. Going clockwise pin 1 is definitely GND/0V and pin 2 is not connected. Pin 3 goes to the input of a 79L05 -5V regulator which via a capacitor seems to be used as the GND pins for 3 CMOS 74 series chips. Pin 4 goes to a 7805 5V regulator. I?ve never seen a -5V reg be used in a GND circuit so before I continue searching am I barking up the wrong tree? The trace literally goes from socket to 79L05 pin 2, output goes to a capacitor then to the GND pins on a CD74HC74E, CD74HC86E and CD74HC4066E. There?s a VARTA battery nearby too. Board pic is here: http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tandatapa-13.jpg Any insight much appreciated! -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 20:27:22 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 22:27:22 -0300 Subject: How to work out unknown PSU replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8f466fa4-8cc8-fdf5-eefa-7fccfd970bee@gmail.com> Are you saying that there is a capacitor between input? output? of the 79L05 and the ground pins of the chips?? If so that would seem pretty normal as it is usually recommended that you have capacitors to ground on both the input and output side of a 3 terminal regulator.? Are the ground pins on the three chips you mentioned isolated from the ground of the rest of the board? On 2018-11-02 10:09 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > This week I managed to get my paws on a machine that I only ever saw in ?coming up!? type magazine articles in the mid-80s. It?s made by a UK manufacturer of Viewdata set top boxes and home micro modems called Tandata who were a split from Tangerine, the company that gave us the Microtan 65 and eventually the Oric 1 and Oric Atmos. > > Documentation on the Tandata PA is zero, if you search for it you get my Binary Dinosaurs page and nothing else so tonight I set about trying to work out the power inputs from its 4 pin socket. Going clockwise pin 1 is definitely GND/0V and pin 2 is not connected. Pin 3 goes to the input of a 79L05 -5V regulator which via a capacitor seems to be used as the GND pins for 3 CMOS 74 series chips. Pin 4 goes to a 7805 5V regulator. > > I?ve never seen a -5V reg be used in a GND circuit so before I continue searching am I barking up the wrong tree? The trace literally goes from socket to 79L05 pin 2, output goes to a capacitor then to the GND pins on a CD74HC74E, CD74HC86E and CD74HC4066E. There?s a VARTA battery nearby too. > > Board pic is here: http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tandatapa-13.jpg > > Any insight much appreciated! > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 22:01:43 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 23:01:43 -0400 Subject: How to work out unknown PSU replacement References: Message-ID: <6EB241B8A2094D2F9D6AB8562D8A96F2@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Graham via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 9:09 PM Subject: How to work out unknown PSU replacement Hi folks, ... Documentation on the Tandata PA is zero, if you search for it you get my Binary Dinosaurs page and nothing else so tonight I set about trying to work out the power inputs from its 4 pin socket. Going clockwise pin 1 is definitely GND/0V and pin 2 is not connected. Pin 3 goes to the input of a 79L05 -5V regulator which via a capacitor seems to be used as the GND pins for 3 CMOS 74 series chips. Pin 4 goes to a 7805 5V regulator. I?ve never seen a -5V reg be used in a GND circuit so before I continue searching am I barking up the wrong tree? The trace literally goes from socket to 79L05 pin 2, output goes to a capacitor then to the GND pins on a CD74HC74E, CD74HC86E and CD74HC4066E. There?s a VARTA battery nearby too. ---- Are you taking into account that unlike positive 78Lxx regulators the pinout of the negative 79Lxx regulators is: 1 - Gnd 2 - Input 3 - Output m From guykd at optusnet.com.au Fri Nov 2 23:13:16 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2018 15:13:16 +1100 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <27c485c4ae4ef3a32a0756739e85c28b@cvmakerspace.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> This is rather sad. I've received a PDP-8/S. It turns out to be missing so much, that it's probably beyond restoration. Anyone who can think of potential ways to find the missing parts, please speak up. http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/ Missing: - Front panel PCB, - Case top AND bottom, - Power supply. - Some flip-chip slots are empty. Not sure if supposed to be. Also there's no sign of any I/O circuitry. A curse on slack people who remove stuff from a machine for servicing or whatever, then never got around to putting it back. Resulting in this kind of tragedy. Guy From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 23:22:00 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 04:22:00 +0000 Subject: How to work out unknown PSU replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 1:09 AM Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > Hi folks, > > This week I managed to get my paws on a machine that I only ever saw in ?coming up!? type magazine articles in the mid-80s. It?s made by a UK manufacturer of Viewdata set top boxes and home micro modems called Tandata who were a split from Tangerine, the company that gave us the Microtan 65 and eventually the Oric 1 and Oric Atmos. > > Documentation on the Tandata PA is zero, if you search for it you get my Binary Dinosaurs page and nothing else so tonight I set about trying to work out the power inputs from its 4 pin socket. Going clockwise pin 1 is definitely GND/0V and pin 2 is not connected. Pin 3 goes to the input of a 79L05 -5V regulator which via a capacitor seems to be used as the GND pins for 3 CMOS 74 series chips. Pin 4 goes to a 7805 5V regulator. > > I?ve never seen a -5V reg be used in a GND circuit so before I continue searching am I barking up the wrong tree? The trace literally goes from socket to 79L05 pin 2, output goes to a capacitor then to the GND pins on a CD74HC74E, CD74HC86E and CD74HC4066E. There?s a VARTA battery nearby too. > > Board pic is here: http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tandatapa-13.jpg > > Any insight much appreciated! Remember that a capacitor will not pass DC, which is what comes out of a 79L05. (OK, I am overimplifying things, but that will do for the moment). It would, however be very usual to have a decoupling capacitor connected between the output of such a regulator and ground. Are you sure the output of the 79L05 doesn't go anywhere else (to analogue ICs, or the modem board, say)? At first glance this looks like a conventional circuit to produce +/-5V. So pin 1 of the connector is ground, pin 3 would be about -9V from the PSU, pin 4 would be about +9V (to clarify there would be about 18V between pins 3 and 4). -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 23:28:52 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 00:28:52 -0400 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <27c485c4ae4ef3a32a0756739e85c28b@cvmakerspace.ca> <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: > - Front panel PCB, > - Case top AND bottom, > - Power supply. > - Some flip-chip slots are empty. Not sure if supposed to be. It is actually not all that sad looking. The blinkenlights board will be hard to find. I might have a power supply. It is likely it never had a top and bottom cover. -- Will From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 23:40:49 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 23:40:49 -0500 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <27c485c4ae4ef3a32a0756739e85c28b@cvmakerspace.ca> <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: still supper clean id love to have that even From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Nov 3 00:12:13 2018 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 22:12:13 -0700 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <27c485c4ae4ef3a32a0756739e85c28b@cvmakerspace.ca> <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> On Sat, 03 Nov 2018 15:13:16 +1100 Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > This is rather sad. > I've received a PDP-8/S. It turns out to be missing so much, that > it's probably beyond restoration. Anyone who can think of potential > ways to find the missing parts, please speak up. > > http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/ > > Missing: > > - Front panel PCB, > - Case top AND bottom, > - Power supply. > - Some flip-chip slots are empty. Not sure if supposed to be. I have a restored and running PDP-8/S. It looks to me that you're not missing modules - the open slots are for the I/O cables. The P/S is a standard DEC linear P/S and can be easily substituted until you come across the real thing. You need to get the schematics for the version of the PDP-8/S you have and check the modules in your system against the module chart. When you say the front panel PCB is missing - do you mean that there is not a large circuit board with incandescent lamps in the system? That would seem unusual to me - given that all the switches are on the front panel. > Also there's no sign of any I/O circuitry. There is NO I/O on a PDP-8/S. The I/O cables connected to any I/O that existed. Please get a PDP-8/S service manual and schematics... > A curse on slack people who remove stuff from a machine for servicing > or whatever, then never got around to putting it back. Resulting in > this kind of tragedy. I may not be as you think... Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Nov 3 00:29:28 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 01:29:28 -0400 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> References: <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> Message-ID: <166d80c2c8b-1ec2-2adf@webjas-vaa125.srv.aolmail.net> yes... the I/O for a tty is on a separate mounting outside the cpu I recall for some reason... I need to pull out or S and another classic 8 from storage. as I recall there is a spare cLassic 8 front panel... snd it can find a new home. The S I want to.put in museum display next to our classic in there and the spare one will display off site... it is in a blue Dec 8 rack... one in museum has plexiglass card surrounds. Ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Friday, November 2, 2018 Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: On Sat, 03 Nov 2018 15:13:16 +1100 Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > This is rather sad. > I've received a PDP-8/S. It turns out to be missing so much, that > it's probably beyond restoration. Anyone who can think of potential > ways to find the missing parts, please speak up. > > http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/ > > Missing: > > - Front panel PCB, > - Case top AND bottom, > - Power supply. > - Some flip-chip slots are empty. Not sure if supposed to be. I have a restored and running PDP-8/S. It looks to me that you're not missing modules - the open slots are for the I/O cables. The P/S is a standard DEC linear P/S and can be easily substituted until you come across the real thing. You need to get the schematics for the version of the PDP-8/S you have and check the modules in your system against the module chart. When you say the front panel PCB is missing - do you mean that there is not a large circuit board with incandescent lamps in the system? That would seem unusual to me - given that all the switches are on the front panel. > Also there's no sign of any I/O circuitry. There is NO I/O on a PDP-8/S. The I/O cables connected to any I/O that existed. Please get a PDP-8/S service manual and schematics... > A curse on slack people who remove stuff from a machine for servicing > or whatever, then never got around to putting it back. Resulting in > this kind of tragedy. I may not be as you think... Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Nov 3 03:02:40 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 04:02:40 -0400 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> References: <27c485c4ae4ef3a32a0756739e85c28b@cvmakerspace.ca> <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 1:12 AM Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 03 Nov 2018 15:13:16 +1100 > Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > > This is rather sad. > > I've received a PDP-8/S. It turns out to be missing so much, that > > it's probably beyond restoration. Anyone who can think of potential > > ways to find the missing parts, please speak up. > > > > http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/ > > > > Missing: > > > > - Front panel PCB, > > - Case top AND bottom, > > - Power supply. > > - Some flip-chip slots are empty. Not sure if supposed to be. > > I have a restored and running PDP-8/S. > > It looks to me that you're not missing modules - the open slots are > for the I/O cables. Yes. Start by looking at http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/pdp-8s At a quick glance, I see you _might_ have 2-3 cards in wrong slots near some intentional gaps. Check that. The open slots at the back are for the I/O cables. The open slots near the memory stack are supposed to be empty with the one possible exception where I see in your photo you have a single-height amber card and the RICM PDP-8/S appears to have a dual-height amber card. I don't have the printset up so I can't tell exactly what's going on there. Could be normal variation as they made changes across the run. > The P/S is a standard DEC linear P/S and can be easily substituted until > you come across the real thing. Yes. You just need enough amps at +10V and -15V to fire it up. What I don't know off the top of my head is the difference between a table-top and rack-mounted system. RICM has pictures of a rack-mounted system. Mine is table-top. It's entirely possible that yours was pulled from a rack and the PSU stayed behind. Yours might never have had covers like the desktop unit. > You need to get the schematics for the version of the PDP-8/S you have > and check the modules in your system against the module chart. Yes. "for the version you have" is important. I don't think there's exactly one way they built it across multiple years. There can easily be a module or two different between different manufacturing dates if there was a large ECO. > When you say the front panel PCB is missing - do you mean that there > is not a large circuit board with incandescent lamps in the system? > That would seem unusual to me - given that all the switches are on the > front panel. Unlike every other machine I've worked on, the -8/S has *two* front panel boards. One is very short and has just the switches and sits in slot 1. The other is full-sized and has only the lamps, no switches and sits in slot 2. I see from your photos, that board is missing. Given that it's fairly simple, you might be able to find a Unibus hex-height protoboard and fabricate a replacement. The lamps might be interesting to source - ISTR they have 28V filaments, underdriven to give them a long lifetime. I can't recommend the original lamps anyway - they are not the bi-pin bulbs used in later models (PDP-8/L and newer). They have these brittle leads coming out of the glass and no plastic base. I have several in mine that had the leads break off right at the glass. Even if the filaments are intact, these bulbs are essentially dead. I do not presently have any replacement bulbs of any type for mine. > > Also there's no sign of any I/O circuitry. > > There is NO I/O on a PDP-8/S. The I/O cables connected to any I/O that > existed. Yep. All the I/O was external on the Negibus, even the console TTY (there's a PT08 in the base of an ASR-33 that was standard for this model). I didn't get the TTY with mine (it was long gone, to a Ham club, I was told) so I don't have a console SLU either. Once I get the CPU working, I'll have to fabricate a PT08 replacement. There just wasn't room in the box for any I/O. The backplane on this model is close to half the size of the backplane on a Straight-8. > Please get a PDP-8/S service manual and schematics... Definitely. -ethan From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Nov 3 03:00:18 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2018 19:00:18 +1100 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <166d80c2c8b-1ec2-2adf@webjas-vaa125.srv.aolmail.net> References: <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181103190018.00dd3900@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 01:29 AM 3/11/2018 -0400, you wrote: >yes... the I/O for a tty is on a separate mounting outside the cpu I recall for some reason... I need to pull out or S and another classic 8 from storage. as I recall there is a spare cLassic 8 front panel... snd it can find a new home. If that's an offer that would be amazing! I only received this machine on Thursday, opened the box properly on Friday and found it was missing such such major parts. It belongs to the ACMS (Australian Computer Museum Society) but with the way things are going with them and their storage space ongoing misfortunes, I may be 'looking after it for them' indefinitely. (grins) I had expected finding an existing spare front panel would be impossible. Was just begging for sympathy. Next question - is a classic 8 panel the same as an 8/S panel? >The S I want to.put in museum display next to our classic in there and the spare one will display off site... >it is in a blue Dec 8 rack... one in museum has plexiglass card surrounds. > Ed# My one will definitely be getting a case of some kind made. With no bottom shell, the wire-wrap plane pins are exposed and on the bottom. Very high risk of damage. A few pins are bent, but nothing that can't be fixed. No visible damage to the actual wire wrapping. The way they managed to get such a dominant and regular theme of 45 degree wire wrap runs is beautiful. >On Friday, November 2, 2018 Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: >On Sat, 03 Nov 2018 15:13:16 +1100 >Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > >> This is rather sad. >> I've received a PDP-8/S. It turns out to be missing so much, that >> it's probably beyond restoration. Anyone who can think of potential >> ways to find the missing parts, please speak up. >> >> http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/ >> >> Missing: >> >> - Front panel PCB, >> - Case top AND bottom, >> - Power supply. >> - Some flip-chip slots are empty. Not sure if supposed to be. > >I have a restored and running PDP-8/S. > >It looks to me that you're not missing modules - the open slots are >for the I/O cables. Ah ha! I hadn't yet had a moment to go hunting bitsavers etc for data. It also came with four ring binders of software manuals. I'll list their contents tomorrow (going out tonight, will be a long night I suspect.) >The P/S is a standard DEC linear P/S and can be easily substituted until >you come across the real thing. Good. Was the power supply external? I can't visualise where it fitted inside this machine, unless it was in the case lid space above the flip chips cards. >You need to get the schematics for the version of the PDP-8/S you have >and check the modules in your system against the module chart. Next question - in this pic http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/20181102_1567.jpg is the "700" some kind of model number, or a serial number? >When you say the front panel PCB is missing - do you mean that there >is not a large circuit board with incandescent lamps in the system? >That would seem unusual to me - given that all the switches are on the >front panel. See pic. There is a machined insulating panel with holes for the lights and screw mounts for the LEDs PCB, but no PCB. http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/20181102_1564.jpg I am guessing the lights were all filament bulbs not LEDs? Maybe modifying for LEDs may be a good idea. Or doing a subsitute PCB layout. >> Also there's no sign of any I/O circuitry. > >There is NO I/O on a PDP-8/S. The I/O cables connected to any I/O that >existed. > >Please get a PDP-8/S service manual and schematics... Yes, next up. >> A curse on slack people who remove stuff from a machine for servicing >> or whatever, then never got around to putting it back. Resulting in >> this kind of tragedy. > >I may not be as you think... No, re the case, power supply and missing front panel, it is. It's a general curse, based on many years of 'ebay stuff' found missing critical bits. This is not from ebay, but same effect. Guy From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Sat Nov 3 04:03:30 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 02:03:30 -0700 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: Do you have software or docs for any of this stuff? I run ps-2.kev009.com On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 3:41 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > OK, I assumed the 6611s used the NSFnet type cards. Artic960s are > different animals - but probably very similar in idea. > > My memory is hazy, but I think the NSFnet cards were referred to as > Hawthornes. > > Somewhere around here I have one of the really early 386 based routing > cards - a weird double height Microchannel card (the RS/6000s were > RPQ'd with extra tall chassis to accommodate them). > > Anyway, I would like to get a 6611, but I do not think very many were > made at all. > > -- > Will > On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 6:19 PM Paul Berger via cctalk > wrote: > > > > The machine type was 6611 and there where three model, the smallest was > > based on a 7011 the mid size one was based on a 7012 and the largest was > > based on a 7013. > > > > The base card is an Artic 960 card which is just a processor card with > > some memory that gets an application loaded on the fly. The top > > interface card has a lot to do with determining what the function of the > > card sandwich is, there should be a X-Y type code on the back of the > > card that would define the interface. They where used for all kinds of > > things like Synchronous communications, X25 and network accelerators. > > Some of the interfaces cards used in the 6611 where unique to it and > > never made it to the "standard" RS/6000 line. There was also a PCI > > version of the Artic 960 but by the time it came along the 6611 was long > > gone. > > > > Paul. > > > > > > On 2018-11-01 1:15 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > >> So, what is this i960-based card for? > > > They were the routers. At the core nodes of the network, there would > > > be a big RS/6000s (very early POWER1 types) that would each do about > > > 4-5 high speed interfaces (FDDI, HSSI, and 10base2). Each interface > > > was one of these cards, so each of the big RS/6000s would have about > > > 4-5 of these cards. > > > > > > IBM tried to commercialize the design, but it was doomed - the routing > > > engines were very fast, but the internet quickly outgrew the > > > architecture of the engines, and they apparently needed a complete > > > redesign to compete. IBM did release very few of these RS/6000s to the > > > public (I think RS/6000-320Hs with a fancy tag - machine type 6767?). > > > I have only seen one of these routers in the wild, but most of the > > > real NSFnet ones (I was decommissioning them, one time with a Sawzall > > > because of some live tangled cables). > > > > > >> Could it be related to what you > > >> say in your post? > > >> > > >> https://imgur.com/NIvQPBv > > > Possibly related, but that card is not one of the NSFnet ones. > > > > > > -- > > > Will > > > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Nov 3 04:59:48 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 09:59:48 +0000 Subject: How to work out unknown PSU replacement In-Reply-To: <8f466fa4-8cc8-fdf5-eefa-7fccfd970bee@gmail.com> References: <8f466fa4-8cc8-fdf5-eefa-7fccfd970bee@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On 3 Nov 2018, at 01:27, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > Are you saying that there is a capacitor between input? output? of the 79L05 and the ground pins of the chips? If so that would seem pretty normal as it is usually recommended that you have capacitors to ground on both the input and output side of a 3 terminal regulator. Are the ground pins on the three chips you mentioned isolated from the ground of the rest of the board? Hi Paul, The trace goes from power socket to pin 2 of the 79L05 and a small value cap which is connected to the GND plane along with pin 1 of the regulator. Pin 3 goes directly to a decoupler then straight to those 3 chips which are isolated. Today I?ll break out the ?tin foil covered sponge? method of tracing any other points on the board that I might have missed last night. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Nov 3 05:27:24 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2018 21:27:24 +1100 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <27c485c4ae4ef3a32a0756739e85c28b@cvmakerspace.ca> <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181103212724.010b3cb8@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 11:40 PM 2/11/2018 -0500, you wrote: >still supper clean id love to have that even I know how you feel. I've never had _any_ possibility of finding an old PDP machine before. Very happy to have this one. Re dirt - actually it's pretty grimy. I did a preliminary dust off for the pics, but later it will get a complete cleaning. After I have docs on where all the flip chips should be, and I figure out a non-marking way to record which ones were in which slots, as I remove them to clean each one and the backplane. With precious museum pieces like this, you DON'T write numbers on them in marker pen. Just doing a quick eval now, since I'm already ridiculously stack-pushed with multiple other projects. Highest priority: Make a mechanical guard for the wired backplane pins. As it is now, just putting the machine down on a desk wrong could do major damage. Have to do this before I even pack it away in the box again. It's just been *really* lucky so far, with only minor pin bending despite inadequate packing. Guy From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Nov 3 05:44:31 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2018 21:44:31 +1100 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <166d80c2c8b-1ec2-2adf@webjas-vaa125.srv.aolmail.net> References: <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181103214431.010c97c0@mail.optusnet.com.au> For the information of others with PDP 8 machines, my PDP-8/S came with some original manuals, in good condition. Sample: http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/20181103_1569_manuals.jpg Here's a list of them. If by chance any of these are missing from scanned collections online, please let me know. I can scan them if needed. Manuals 4 red plastic 3-ring binders * OS 8 Language reference manual Pt 1 BASIC, FORT 4 * OS 8 Language reference manual Pt 2 PAL 8, FORT 2, FLAP, SABR * OS 8 Sys ref manual * OS 8 Sys Gen, Device exten, Errors, Teco Contents OS/8 Language Reference Manual Order No. AA-H609A-TA Abstract - This document describes the following languages supported by OS/8: BASIC, FORTRAN IV, PAL8, FORTRAN II, FLAP/RALF, SABR. Operating system and version: OS/8 V3D (c) 1979 Digital Equipment Corporation (Manual spit into two binders.) OS/8 System Reference Manual Order No. AA-H607A-TA Abstract - This document describes OS/8 system conventions, keyboard commands, and utility programs. Operating system and version: OS/8 V3D (c) 1979 Digital Equipment Corporation (Manual fits in one binder, but is too tight in the rings for easy use.) Several manuals in one binder: OS/8 System Generation Notes Order No. AA-H606A-TA About 24 pages, front & back covers. Abstract - This document describes the procedures for getting on line with OS/8. Operating system and version: OS/8 V3D (c) 1979 Digital Equipment Corporation OS/8 Device Extrension Release Notes Order No. AA-H565A-TA About 6 pages, front & back covers. Abstract - This document describes the features of the OS/8 Device extensions not discussed in the OS/8 Device Extensions User's Guide. Operating system and version: OS/8 V3D (c) 1979 Digital Equipment Corporation OS/8 Device Extensions User's Guide Order No. AA-D319A-TA About 40 pages, front & back covers. Abstract - This document describes the software support for the KT8A Memory Management Option and the RX02 and RL01 devices. Operating system and version: OS/8 V3D (c) 1978 Digital Equipment Corporation OS/8 Error Messages order No. AA-H610A-TA About 36 pages, front & back covers. Abstract - This document describes the error messages generated by the OS/8 Monitor, languages, editors, and other system programs. Operating system and version: OS/8 V3D (c) 1979 Digital Equipment Corporation OS/8 TECO Reference Manual Order No. AA-H608A-TA About 120 pages, front & back covers. Abstract - This document describes the Text Editing and Correcting program for OS/8 users. Operating system and version: OS/8 V3D (c) 1979 Digital Equipment Corporation From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 3 06:34:12 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 04:34:12 -0700 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181103190018.00dd3900@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> <3.0.6.32.20181103190018.00dd3900@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 11/3/18 1:00 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > I only received this machine on Thursday, opened the box properly on Friday and found it was missing such > such major parts. It belongs to the ACMS (Australian Computer Museum Society) but with the way things are > going with them and their storage space ongoing misfortunes, I may be 'looking after it for them' indefinitely. > (grins) The loss of a non-profit collecting institution is nothing to "grin" about. I hope you start thinking about who it will go to when you die. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 3 06:40:54 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 04:40:54 -0700 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: References: <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> <3.0.6.32.20181103190018.00dd3900@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 11/3/18 4:34 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 11/3/18 1:00 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > >> I only received this machine on Thursday, opened the box properly on Friday and found it was missing such >> such major parts. It belongs to the ACMS (Australian Computer Museum Society) but with the way things are >> going with them and their storage space ongoing misfortunes, I may be 'looking after it for them' indefinitely. >> (grins) > > The loss of a non-profit collecting institution is nothing to "grin" about. > I hope you start thinking about who it will go to when you die. > Also, since it isn't yours, did you tell them you intend to 'restore' it? From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Nov 3 09:04:16 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2018 01:04:16 +1100 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181103190018.00dd3900@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> <3.0.6.32.20181103190018.00dd3900@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181104010416.00e4fd48@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 04:34 AM 3/11/2018 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >On 11/3/18 1:00 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > >> I only received this machine on Thursday, opened the box properly on Friday and found it was missing such >> such major parts. It belongs to the ACMS (Australian Computer Museum Society) but with the way things are >> going with them and their storage space ongoing misfortunes, I may be 'looking after it for them' indefinitely. >> (grins) > >The loss of a non-profit collecting institution is nothing to "grin" about. >I hope you start thinking about who it will go to when you die. > >Also, since it isn't yours, did you tell them you intend to 'restore' it? Al, a few points: 1. This and several other items from their collection were passed specificaly to me BY THE ACMS last week, on their initiative, since their storage situation has deteriorated further. The executive of ACMS have visited my workshop, and know my capabilities and intentions. 2. I'm not grinning about the tragic lack of support for tech museums in this country (Australia.) If you knew me at all, you'd know my opinions of why that is, and what a disaster it is. I'm grinning about having a chance to preserve such a nice machine, myself. This should be obvious to anyone who wasn't predisposed to a hostile attitude, for some reason. 3. I'm currently only evaluating options for restoring it. And will discuss with ACMS before doing anything, apart from making a screw-on protection for the wire-wrap backplane asap. (Next week, need to buy some aluminum sections.) It will be a *long time* before I can seriously begin on it, due to the length of my work queue. Which doesn't mean I can't start trying to locate information and parts now. 3. It seems you have time to go out of your way to criticise in a situation you know little about, but you don't have time to find that Documation TM200 physical manual you recalled seeing at bitsavers, and repeatedly ignore me when I ask you about where it is now, what are your plans for it, can I borrow or buy it from you, etc. Since I'm restoring a TM200, and so far yours is the only sighted copy of a manual anywhere, that's disappointing. 4. 'When I die' - this is a known issue. Though thankfully not an urgent one. Australia is very different to the USA. Guy From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Nov 3 09:14:13 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 09:14:13 -0500 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181104010416.00e4fd48@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> <3.0.6.32.20181103190018.00dd3900@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181104010416.00e4fd48@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: get some thick plexi glass to cover it and sit it up for display to look in but not touch ;) On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 9:08 AM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 04:34 AM 3/11/2018 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > >On 11/3/18 1:00 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > > >> I only received this machine on Thursday, opened the box properly on > Friday and found it was missing such > >> such major parts. It belongs to the ACMS (Australian Computer Museum > Society) but with the way things are > >> going with them and their storage space ongoing misfortunes, I may be > 'looking after it for them' indefinitely. > >> (grins) > > > >The loss of a non-profit collecting institution is nothing to "grin" > about. > >I hope you start thinking about who it will go to when you die. > > > >Also, since it isn't yours, did you tell them you intend to 'restore' it? > > > Al, a few points: > > 1. This and several other items from their collection were passed > specificaly to me BY THE ACMS last week, on their > initiative, since their storage situation has deteriorated further. The > executive of ACMS have visited my workshop, > and know my capabilities and intentions. > > 2. I'm not grinning about the tragic lack of support for tech museums in > this country (Australia.) If you knew me at all, > you'd know my opinions of why that is, and what a disaster it is. > I'm grinning about having a chance to preserve such a nice machine, > myself. This should be obvious to anyone who wasn't > predisposed to a hostile attitude, for some reason. > > 3. I'm currently only evaluating options for restoring it. And will > discuss with ACMS before doing anything, apart from > making a screw-on protection for the wire-wrap backplane asap. (Next > week, need to buy some aluminum sections.) > It will be a *long time* before I can seriously begin on it, due to the > length of my work queue. Which doesn't mean > I can't start trying to locate information and parts now. > > 3. It seems you have time to go out of your way to criticise in a > situation you know little about, but you don't have > time to find that Documation TM200 physical manual you recalled seeing > at bitsavers, and repeatedly ignore me when > I ask you about where it is now, what are your plans for it, can I > borrow or buy it from you, etc. > Since I'm restoring a TM200, and so far yours is the only sighted copy > of a manual anywhere, that's disappointing. > > 4. 'When I die' - this is a known issue. Though thankfully not an urgent > one. Australia is very different to the USA. > > Guy > > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 3 10:20:07 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 15:20:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: References: <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> <3.0.6.32.20181103190018.00dd3900@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181104010416.00e4fd48@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <2101424097.175590.1541258407314@mail.yahoo.com> On Saturday, November 3, 2018 7:14 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: get some thick plexi glass to cover it and sit it up for display to look in but not touch ;) On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 9:08 AM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 04:34 AM 3/11/2018 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > >On 11/3/18 1:00 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > > >> I only received this machine on Thursday, opened the box properly on > Friday and found it was missing such > >> such major parts. It belongs to the ACMS (Australian Computer Museum > Society) but with the way things are > >> going with them and their storage space ongoing misfortunes, I may be > 'looking after it for them' indefinitely. > >> (grins) > > > >The loss of a non-profit collecting institution is nothing to "grin" > about. > >I hope you start thinking about who it will go to when you die. > > > >Also, since it isn't yours, did you tell them you intend to 'restore' it? > > > Al, a few points: > > 1. This and several other items from their collection were passed > specificaly to me BY THE ACMS last week, on their >? ? initiative, since their storage situation has deteriorated further. The > executive of ACMS have visited my workshop, >? ? and know my capabilities and intentions. > > 2. I'm not grinning about the tragic lack of support for tech museums in > this country (Australia.) If you knew me at all, >? ? you'd know my opinions of why that is, and what a disaster it is. >? ? I'm grinning about having a chance to preserve such a nice machine, > myself. This should be obvious to anyone who wasn't >? ? predisposed to a hostile attitude, for some reason. > > 3. I'm currently only evaluating options for restoring it. And will > discuss with ACMS before doing anything, apart from >? ? making a screw-on protection for the wire-wrap backplane asap. (Next > week, need to buy some aluminum sections.) >? ? It will be a *long time* before I can seriously begin on it, due to the > length of my work queue. Which doesn't mean >? ? I can't start trying to locate information and parts now. > > 3. It seems you have time to go out of your way to criticise in a > situation you know little about, but you don't have >? ? time to find that Documation TM200 physical manual you recalled seeing > at bitsavers, and repeatedly ignore me when >? ? I ask you about where it is now, what are your plans for it, can I > borrow or buy it from you, etc. >? ? Since I'm restoring a TM200, and so far yours is the only sighted copy > of a manual anywhere, that's disappointing. > > 4. 'When I die' - this is a known issue. Though thankfully not an urgent > one. Australia is very different to the USA. > > Guy > > My PDP-8s had an external DEC power supply. Just a simple constant voltage transformer, diodes and caps.DEC original. Looks like all of the cards are there, I/O was done externally to the 8s. The missing light boardlooks to be the only problem and it would not be too hard to make. No parts except the lamps. Bob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 3 10:20:07 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 15:20:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: References: <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> <3.0.6.32.20181103190018.00dd3900@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181104010416.00e4fd48@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <2101424097.175590.1541258407314@mail.yahoo.com> On Saturday, November 3, 2018 7:14 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: get some thick plexi glass to cover it and sit it up for display to look in but not touch ;) On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 9:08 AM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 04:34 AM 3/11/2018 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > >On 11/3/18 1:00 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > > >> I only received this machine on Thursday, opened the box properly on > Friday and found it was missing such > >> such major parts. It belongs to the ACMS (Australian Computer Museum > Society) but with the way things are > >> going with them and their storage space ongoing misfortunes, I may be > 'looking after it for them' indefinitely. > >> (grins) > > > >The loss of a non-profit collecting institution is nothing to "grin" > about. > >I hope you start thinking about who it will go to when you die. > > > >Also, since it isn't yours, did you tell them you intend to 'restore' it? > > > Al, a few points: > > 1. This and several other items from their collection were passed > specificaly to me BY THE ACMS last week, on their >? ? initiative, since their storage situation has deteriorated further. The > executive of ACMS have visited my workshop, >? ? and know my capabilities and intentions. > > 2. I'm not grinning about the tragic lack of support for tech museums in > this country (Australia.) If you knew me at all, >? ? you'd know my opinions of why that is, and what a disaster it is. >? ? I'm grinning about having a chance to preserve such a nice machine, > myself. This should be obvious to anyone who wasn't >? ? predisposed to a hostile attitude, for some reason. > > 3. I'm currently only evaluating options for restoring it. And will > discuss with ACMS before doing anything, apart from >? ? making a screw-on protection for the wire-wrap backplane asap. (Next > week, need to buy some aluminum sections.) >? ? It will be a *long time* before I can seriously begin on it, due to the > length of my work queue. Which doesn't mean >? ? I can't start trying to locate information and parts now. > > 3. It seems you have time to go out of your way to criticise in a > situation you know little about, but you don't have >? ? time to find that Documation TM200 physical manual you recalled seeing > at bitsavers, and repeatedly ignore me when >? ? I ask you about where it is now, what are your plans for it, can I > borrow or buy it from you, etc. >? ? Since I'm restoring a TM200, and so far yours is the only sighted copy > of a manual anywhere, that's disappointing. > > 4. 'When I die' - this is a known issue. Though thankfully not an urgent > one. Australia is very different to the USA. > > Guy > > My PDP-8s had an external DEC power supply. Just a simple constant voltage transformer, diodes and caps.DEC original. Looks like all of the cards are there, I/O was done externally to the 8s. The missing light boardlooks to be the only problem and it would not be too hard to make. No parts except the lamps. Bob From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Nov 3 10:43:27 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2018 02:43:27 +1100 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181104010416.00e4fd48@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181102221213.685077ec@asrock> <3.0.6.32.20181103190018.00dd3900@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181104010416.00e4fd48@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181104024327.010c6d40@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 09:14 AM 3/11/2018 -0500, Adrian Stoness wrote: >get some thick plexi glass to cover it and sit it up for display to look in but not touch ;) Good idea! And easy to add to the simple base frame I had in mind. Zero changes to the machine. I was too stuck in modern fast digital thinking - 'RF-tight metal case' etc. Ha ha, on reflection I don't think so. Guy From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Nov 3 10:53:37 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 11:53:37 -0400 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <166da4797b1-1ec1-278a@webjas-vad227.srv.aolmail.net> That? is actually a? great? idea!? ? Even if? you have? ?covers for? many? different? computers,? the insides? are? usually? more fascinating than the outsides? of? a? unit! ? Ed #? www.smecc.org? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? In a message dated 11/3/2018 7:14:33 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? get some thick plexi glass to cover it and sit it up for display to look in but not touch ;) From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 3 12:07:59 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 10:07:59 -0700 Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/31/18 6:13 AM, Adam Sampson via cctalk wrote: > Al Kossow via cctalk writes: > >> On 10/29/18 12:54 PM, geneb wrote: >>> https://archive.org/details/walnutcreekcdrom >> It sure would be nice if you could get a comma separated list of >> metadata instead of a bunch of pretty pictures > > It's fairly well hidden, but you can indeed do that: > > https://archive.org/advancedsearch.php?q=collection%3Awalnutcreekcdrom&fl[]=identifier&output=csv Most of the entries have no date metadata, so here is a sorted list extracting the dates from the identifier field. At least you can get an rough idea of what is there, and where there are duplicates. ?????? ADA_-_The_International_Language_for_Software_Engineers_Walnut_Creek_February ?????? ADA_-_The_International_Language_for_Software_Engineers_Walnut_Creek_June_199 ?????? ADA_-_The_International_Language_for_Software_Engineers_Walnut_Creek_March_19 ?????? ADA_-_The_International_Language_for_Software_Engineers_Walnut_Creek_November ?????? ADA_-_The_International_Language_for_Software_Engineers_Walnut_Creek_Septembe ?????? Bootable_Slackware_4.0_2 ?????? Garbo ?????? LibrisBritannia ?????? MS-DOS_Archives_Volume_One_Walnut_Creek 198812 NOAA_Aeronautical_Data_Sampler_CD-ROM_Next_Generation_Cartography_December_1988 1992 Desktop_Library_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_1992 199201 X11R5_GNU_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_January_1992 199203 CDROM_March92 199203 Source_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_March_1992 199203 Source_Code_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_March_1992 199204 MS_Windows_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_April_1992 199205 OS2_Archive_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_May_1992 199206 SIMTEL_0692 199207 Cica_July92 199208 GIFs_Galore_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_August_1992 199208 GifsGalore_Aug92 199209 Simtel20_Sept92 199211 CICA_MS_Windows_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_November_1992 199211 Hobbes_OS2_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_November_1992 199212 cdrom-simtel20msdosarchivedecember1992walnutcr 199212 simtel1292_SIMTEL_1292_Walnut_Creek 199212 X11R5_GNU_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_December_1992 199303 Libris_Britannia_Walnut_Creek_March_1993 199306 Aminet_CD-ROM_for_the_Commodore_Amiga_Computer_Walnut_Creek_June_1993 199306 Hobbes_OS2_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_June_1993 199306 La_Coleccion_Walnut_Creek_Junio_1993 199308 cdrom-cicamicrosoftwindows0893 199310 GIFs_Galore_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_October_1993 199310 Hobbes_OS2_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_October_1993 199312 CICA_MS_Windows_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_December_1993 199312 CICA_Shareware_for_Windows_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_December_1993 199312 GEMini_Atari_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_December_1993 199401 C_Users_Group_Library_Walnut_Creek_January_1994 199401 FreeBSD_CD-ROM_Version_2.0_Walnut_Creek_January_1994 199402 Aminet_CD-ROM_For_the_Commodore_Amiga_Computer_Walnut_Creek_February_1994 199402 Clip-Art_Cornucopeia_CD-ROM_February_1994 199402 Fractal_Frenzy_Walnut_Creek_Japanese_February_1994 199402 Hobbes_OS2_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_February_1994 199403 ADA_The_International_Language_for_Software_Engineers_Walnut_Creek_March_1994 199403 Aminet_CD-ROM_For_the_Commodore_Amiga_Walnut_Creek_March_1994 199403 Source_Code_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_March_1994 199403 Tax_Info_1993_Walnut_Creek_March_1994 199404 CICA_Shareware_for_Windows_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_April_1994 199405 Sentimental_Wings_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_May_1994 199405 Sys_V_r4_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_May_1994 199406 4.4_BSD_Lite_Export_Walnut_Creek_June_1994 199407 ADA_The_International_Language_for_Software_Engineers_Walnut_Creek_July_1994 199407 Kirks_Comm_Disc_Walnut_Creek_July_1994 199407 Visions_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_July_1994 199407 X11R6_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_July_1994 199408 C_Users_Group_Library_Walnut_Creek_August_1994 199408 CDROM_of_CDROMs_Walnut_Creek_August_1994 199408 Hobbes_OS2_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_August_1994 199408 Toolkit_for_Linux_Walnut_Creek_August_1994 199409 CICA_Shareware_for_Windows_Walnut_Creek_September_1994 199409 Simtel_MSDOS_1994-09 199409 Welcome_to_Africa_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_September_1994 199411 cdrom-1994-11-walnutcreek-cpm 199411 CPM_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_November_1994 199411 DOOM_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_November_1994 199411 La_Coleccion_Walnut_Creek_Noviembre_1994 199411 Plug_and_Play_Linux_Walnut_Creek_November_1994 199411 Ready_to_Run_Hobbes_OS2_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_November_1994 1995 cdrom-x11r610395 199501 Music_Workshop_Walnut_Creek_January_1995 199501 Simtel_MSDOS_Walnut_Creek_CD-ROM_January_1995 199501 Walnut_Creek_Sampler_44_CDROMs_to_Try_Walnut_Creek_January_1995 199502 CICA_Ultimate_Collection_of_Shareware_for_Windows_Walnut_Creek_February_1995 199503 Hobbes_OS2_Archived_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_March_1995 199503 Slackware_Ready_to_Run_Linux_Walnut_Creek_March_1995 199504 Best_of_Walnut_Creek_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_April_1995 199504 Clips_for_QuickTime_Walnut_Creek_April_1995 199504 Giga_Games_2_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_April_1995 199504 Raytrace_The_Official_POV-RAY_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_April_1995 199504 X11R6_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_April_1995 199505 Simtel_MSDOS_1995-05 199505 Space_Shuttle_Encyclopedia_Walnut_Creek_May_1995 199506 FreeBSD_CD-ROM_Version_2.0.5_Walnut_Creek_June_1995 199507 Power_DOS_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_July_1995 199507 Slackware_Linux_2.3_Walnut_Creek_July_1995 199507 TeX_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_July_1995 199508 CICA_Ultimate_Collection_of_Shareware_for_Windows_Walnut_Creek_August_1995 199508 Fractal_Frenzy_Volume_II_Walnut_Creek_August_1995 199509 CICA_Shareware_for_Windows_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_September_1995_Japanese 199509 NewT_for_Windows_NT_Walnut_Creek_September_1995 199510 Slackware_Linux_3.0_Walnut_Creek_October_1995 199510 X11R6_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_October_1995 199512 Hobbes_OS2_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_December_1995 1996 Digital_Stamp_Album_Walnut_Creek_1996 1996 NASA_Engineering_Source_Code_Aeronautics_Walnut_Creek_1996 1996 NASA_Engineering_Source_Code_AI_and_Tools_Walnut_Creek_1996 1996 NASA_Engineering_Source_Code_Flow_and_Structure_Walnut_Creek_1996 1996 NASA_Engineering_Source_Code_Modeling_Walnut_Creek_1996 1996 Spider_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_1996 199601 Music_Workshop_Second_Edition_Walnut_Creek_January_1996 199602 Best_of_Walnut_Creek_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_February_1996 199602 NewT_for_Windows_NT_Walnut_Creek_February_1996 199603 CICA_Ultimate_Collection_of_Shareware_for_Windows_Walnut_Creek_March_1996 199603 FreeBSD_2.2_Snapshot_Walnut_Creek_March_23_1996 199603 La_Coleccion_Walnut_Creek_March_1996 199604 Game_Patches_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_April_1996 199604 Internet_Usenet_Source_Code_Volume_1_Walnut_Creek_1985-1990_April_1996 199604 Internet_Usenet_Source_Code_Volume_1_Walnut_Creek_April_1996 199605 BSD_Docs_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_May_1996 199606 Hobbes_OS2_Archived_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_June_1996 199606 Hobbes_OS2_Archived_Walnut_Creek_June_1996 199606 Simtel_MSDOS_1996-06 199607 CICA_Ultimate_Collection_of_Shareware_for_Windows_Walnut_Creek_July_1996_Ge 199607 CICA_Ultimate_Collection_of_Shareware_for_Windows_Walnut_Creek_Luglio_1996_ 199607 Turbo_User_Group_Source_Code_Collection_Volume_2_Volume_2_July_1996 199608 CICA_Ultimate_Collection_of_Shareware_for_Windows_Walnut_Creek_August_1996 199608 Slackware_Linux_96_Walnut_Creek_August_1996 199609 Antennas_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_September_1996 199609 FreeBSD_CD-ROM_Version_2.1.5_Walnut_Creek_September_1996_Japanese 199609 Simtel_MSDOS_1996-09 199611 Hobbes_OS2_Archived_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_November_1996 199612 CICA_NT_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_December_1996 199702 cdrom-cicawindows1199702 199702 cdrom-cicawindows2119702 199702 cdrom-cicawindowscollection199702-1 199702 cdrom-cicawindowscollection199702-2 199702 CICA_Ultimate_Collection_of_Shareware_for_Windows_Walnut_Creek_February_1997 199703 Project_Gutenberg_Walnut_Creek_CD-ROM_March_1997 199704 CICA_NT_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_April_1997 199704 FreeBSD_CD-ROM_Version_2.2.1_Walnut_Creek_April_1997 199706 ADA_-_The_Public_Ada_Library_Walnut_Creek_June_1997 199706 FreeBSD_CD-ROM_Version_2.2.2_Walnut_Creek_June_1997 199708 CICA_Ultimate_Collection_of_Shareware_for_Windows_Walnut_Creek_August_1997 199709 Audio_Toolkit_Walnut_Creek_September_1997 199709 Hobbes_OS2_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_September_1997 199709 Simtel_MSDOS_1997-09 199710 Internet_Communication_Utilities_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_October_1997 199710 Jolt_Developers_Toolkit_for_the_Java_Platform_Walnut_Creek_October_1997 199711 ADA_-_The_Public_Ada_Library_Walnut_Creek_November_1997 199711 CICA_NT_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_November_1997 199711 FreeBSD_CD-ROM_Version_2.2.5_Walnut_Creek_November_1997 199712 Internet_Info_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_December_1997 1998 TurboLinux_Business_Apps_Volume_2_Walnut_Creek_1998 199802 FreeBSD_3.0_Snapshot_Walnut_Creek_February_22_1998 199802 Linux_Red_Hat_5.0_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_February_1998 199804 cdrom-hobbes-os2-april1998-disc1 199804 cdrom-hobbes-os2-april1998-disc2 199804 FreeBSD_CD-ROM_Version_2.2.6_Walnut_Creek_April_1998 199804 Hobbes_OS2_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_April_1998 199806 Linux_Red_Hat_5.1_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_June_1998 199808 DJGPP_Development_System_August_1998 199808 TurboLinux_2.0_Collection_Walnut_Creek_August_1998 199809 World_Radio_Amateur_Directory_Walnut_Creek_September_1998 199810 UNIX_Freeware_Walnut_Creek_October_1998 199911 Applixware_Office_for_FreeBSD_Walnut_Creek_November_1999 199907 Business_Apps_for_Linux_Walnut_Creek_July_1999 199910 CICA_32_For_Windows_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_October_1999 199911 FreeBSD_4.0_Snapshot_Walnut_Creek_November_11_1999 199904 FreeBSD_CD-ROM_Version_3.1_Walnut_Creek_March_1999 199905 FreeBSD_Toolkit_Walnut_Creek_May_1999 199909 FreeBSD_Toolkit_Walnut_Creek_September_1999 199909 Hobbes_OS2_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_September_1999 199907 Linux_Games_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_July_1999 199906 Linux_Red_Hat_6.0_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_June_1999 199912 Linux_Toolkit_Walnut_Creek_December_1999 199901 Linux_Toolkit_Walnut_Creek_January_1999 199907 Linux_Toolkit_Walnut_Creek_July_1999 199902 Linux_Web_Tools_Walnut_Creek_February_1999 199901 Simtel_MSDOS_1999-01 199906 Slackware_Linux_4.0_Walnut_Creek_June_1999 199911 Slackware_Linux_7.0_Walnut_Creek_November_1999 199901 TurboLinux_3.0.1_Collection_Walnut_Creek_January_1999 2000 QRZ_Ham_Radio_Callsign_Database_Volume_15_Walnut_Creek_Summer_2000 200003 CICA_32_For_Windows_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_March_2000 200003 FreeBSD_CD-ROM_Version_4.0_Walnut_Creek_March_2000 200004 FreeBSD_AXP_4.0_Walnut_Creek_March_2000 200004 Linux_Red_Hat_6.2_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_April_2000 200006 FreeBSD_Toolkit_Walnut_Creek_June_2000 200007 Slackware_Linux_7.1_Walnut_Creek_July_2000 200008 CICA_32_For_Windows_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_August_2000 200011 FreeBSD_CD-ROM_Version_4.2_Walnut_Creek_November_2000 2001 Grace_Library_The_Revelation_of_the_Grace_of_God_The_Discovery_Edition_2001 200101 CICA_32_for_Windows_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_January_2001 200102 FreeBSD_Toolkit_Walnut_Creek_February_2001 200104 FreeBSD_CD-ROM_Version_4.3_Walnut_Creek_April_2001 200106 FreeBSD_Toolkit_Walnut_Creek_June_2001 200206 FreeBSD_CD-ROM_Version_4.6_Walnut_Creek_June_2002 200606 FreeBSD_CD-ROM_Version_5.5_Walnut_Creek_June_2006 From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Nov 3 13:30:54 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2018 13:30:54 -0500 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <5BDDE95E.4010900@pico-systems.com> On 11/02/2018 11:13 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > This is rather sad. > I've received a PDP-8/S. It turns out to be missing so much, that it's probably beyond restoration. > Anyone who can think of potential ways to find the missing parts, please speak up. > > http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/ > > Missing: > > - Front panel PCB, > - Case top AND bottom, > - Power supply. > - Some flip-chip slots are empty. Not sure if supposed to be. > > Also there's no sign of any I/O circuitry. > > A curse on slack people who remove stuff from a machine for servicing or whatever, > then never got around to putting it back. Resulting in this kind of tragedy. Well, the most serious thing is the front panel board. The switches appear to be there, which would be the hardest thing to replace. You could make a display board by hand, there really aren't that many LEDs t (or bulbs, if you are a purist) to it. The I/O was all external on the early 8's, except for maybe the console serial port. Power supplies should be easy to whip up. I'm not sure the 8S actually HAD a case top and bottom, all the ones I've seen were bare like yours. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Nov 3 13:37:30 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2018 13:37:30 -0500 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <166da4797b1-1ec1-278a@webjas-vad227.srv.aolmail.net> References: <166da4797b1-1ec1-278a@webjas-vad227.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <5BDDEAEA.7080809@pico-systems.com> One thought - it is possible that light panels from some other model of computer, possibly not even PDP-8 related, might be the same base PC board as the 8/S panel. DEC made a LOT of light panels for all the CPUs and control units on larger machines. At least some of them were made from the same basic PCB. Not sure if the 8/S light panel had any active circuitry on it, I'm thinking it might just be bulbs and connectors. Jon From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Nov 3 15:38:04 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 16:38:04 -0400 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <5BDDE95E.4010900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <166db4c06c1-1ec6-340c@webjas-vab163.srv.aolmail.net> the? ?SMECC? 8s? ?I? seem to? remember a? case? around it? looking at? google? this? looks? just? like that? case around it? ?ok? look? below? this? photo? ?for? the link? or photo? of the? 8i that looked? like a? decwritter? case... sadly? over? 30 years had? anough? parts? to? put? one of these? back? together.....? ?alas? ?I? do no? have now... ? ? ? ? ? In a message dated 11/3/2018 11:31:03 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 11/02/2018 11:13 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > This is rather sad. > I've received a PDP-8/S. It turns out to be missing so much, that it's probably beyond restoration. > Anyone who can think of potential ways to find the missing parts, please speak up. > > http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/ > > Missing: > > - Front panel PCB, > - Case top AND bottom, > - Power supply. > - Some flip-chip slots are empty. Not sure if supposed to be. > > Also there's no sign of any I/O circuitry. > > A curse on slack people who remove stuff from a machine for servicing or whatever, > then never got around to putting it back. Resulting in this kind of tragedy. Well, the most serious thing is the front panel board. The switches appear to be there, which would be the hardest thing to replace. You could make a display board by hand, there really aren't that many LEDs t (or bulbs, if you are a purist) to it. The I/O was all external on the early 8's, except for maybe the console serial port. Power supplies should be easy to whip up. I'm not sure the 8S actually HAD a case top and bottom, all the ones I've seen were bare like yours. Jon From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Nov 3 16:19:16 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 17:19:16 -0400 Subject: UNIVAC 422 User Grouop Forming Please drop us a note offlist With SN of your unit and stats of operability and completeness and go withs. Message-ID: <166db71bee8-1ec6-3577@webjas-vac222.srv.aolmail.net> NOW FORMING - -UNIVAC 422 User Group and? including? The? 422 and? the prior UNIVAC DIGITAL TRAINER? - (Is there a? code compatibility?) ? Please drop us a note off list? With SN of your unit and stats of if able to? operate and completeness and go withs. Include a? pic? of? you and? your? unit if? you? ?want to appear in 1st? newsletter. ? Thanks? Ed Sharpe? Newsletter editor From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Nov 3 16:19:16 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 17:19:16 -0400 Subject: UNIVAC 422 User Grouop Forming Please drop us a note offlist With SN of your unit and stats of operability and completeness and go withs. Message-ID: <166db71bee8-1ec6-3577@webjas-vac222.srv.aolmail.net> NOW FORMING - -UNIVAC 422 User Group and? including? The? 422 and? the prior UNIVAC DIGITAL TRAINER? - (Is there a? code compatibility?) ? Please drop us a note off list? With SN of your unit and stats of if able to? operate and completeness and go withs. Include a? pic? of? you and? your? unit if? you? ?want to appear in 1st? newsletter. ? Thanks? Ed Sharpe? Newsletter editor From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Nov 3 16:50:16 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 17:50:16 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?decals..._we_have_a_couple_ex?= =?UTF-8?Q?tra_unused=C2=A0_Electrodata_compan?= =?UTF-8?Q?y_Pasadena=C2=A0_decals...(yes_the=C2=A0?= =?UTF-8?Q?_Real_stuff=C2=A0_late_50's=3F)_to_tr?= =?UTF-8?Q?ade_for=3F_Burroughs=C2=A0_bought=C2=A0_E?= =?UTF-8?Q?lectrodata_in_1956=C2=A0_as_I=C2=A0_reme?= =?UTF-8?Q?mber_and=C2=A0_these=C2=A0_would=C2=A0_have=C2=A0_?= =?UTF-8?Q?been_acquired=C2=A0_around_the_late?= Message-ID: <166db8e1e89-1ec6-35a7@webjas-vae050.srv.aolmail.net> decals... we have a couple extra unused? Electrodata company Pasadena? decals...(yes the? Real stuff? late 50's?) to trade for? Burroughs? bought? Electrodata in 1956? as I? remember and? these? would? have? been acquired? around the late? 50's ? ? ?drop us? a note off list. ? Thanks? Ed Sharpe archivist? for SMECC? -? to? see? what? we? hoard at the project? ?www.smecc.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 3 17:01:27 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 18:01:27 -0400 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have quite few NSFnet backup tapes that need to go to Al at some point. They likely have good stuff on them. -- Will On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 5:03 AM Kevin Bowling wrote: > > Do you have software or docs for any of this stuff? I run ps-2.kev009.com > > On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 3:41 PM William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> >> OK, I assumed the 6611s used the NSFnet type cards. Artic960s are >> different animals - but probably very similar in idea. >> >> My memory is hazy, but I think the NSFnet cards were referred to as Hawthornes. >> >> Somewhere around here I have one of the really early 386 based routing >> cards - a weird double height Microchannel card (the RS/6000s were >> RPQ'd with extra tall chassis to accommodate them). >> >> Anyway, I would like to get a 6611, but I do not think very many were >> made at all. >> >> -- >> Will >> On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 6:19 PM Paul Berger via cctalk >> wrote: >> > >> > The machine type was 6611 and there where three model, the smallest was >> > based on a 7011 the mid size one was based on a 7012 and the largest was >> > based on a 7013. >> > >> > The base card is an Artic 960 card which is just a processor card with >> > some memory that gets an application loaded on the fly. The top >> > interface card has a lot to do with determining what the function of the >> > card sandwich is, there should be a X-Y type code on the back of the >> > card that would define the interface. They where used for all kinds of >> > things like Synchronous communications, X25 and network accelerators. >> > Some of the interfaces cards used in the 6611 where unique to it and >> > never made it to the "standard" RS/6000 line. There was also a PCI >> > version of the Artic 960 but by the time it came along the 6611 was long >> > gone. >> > >> > Paul. >> > >> > >> > On 2018-11-01 1:15 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> > >> So, what is this i960-based card for? >> > > They were the routers. At the core nodes of the network, there would >> > > be a big RS/6000s (very early POWER1 types) that would each do about >> > > 4-5 high speed interfaces (FDDI, HSSI, and 10base2). Each interface >> > > was one of these cards, so each of the big RS/6000s would have about >> > > 4-5 of these cards. >> > > >> > > IBM tried to commercialize the design, but it was doomed - the routing >> > > engines were very fast, but the internet quickly outgrew the >> > > architecture of the engines, and they apparently needed a complete >> > > redesign to compete. IBM did release very few of these RS/6000s to the >> > > public (I think RS/6000-320Hs with a fancy tag - machine type 6767?). >> > > I have only seen one of these routers in the wild, but most of the >> > > real NSFnet ones (I was decommissioning them, one time with a Sawzall >> > > because of some live tangled cables). >> > > >> > >> Could it be related to what you >> > >> say in your post? >> > >> >> > >> https://imgur.com/NIvQPBv >> > > Possibly related, but that card is not one of the NSFnet ones. >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Will >> > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Nov 3 17:24:20 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2018 09:24:20 +1100 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <166db4c06c1-1ec6-340c@webjas-vab163.srv.aolmail.net> References: <5BDDE95E.4010900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181104092420.00e14000@mail.optusnet.com.au> A huge thanks to everyone providing useful information and resource links, on and off list. My apologies; I'm a bit overloaded atm, and am getting behind on individual replies. I'm keeping all replies and will respond eventually. About the front panel lights board: It's a relief to discover that it's simple and making a replacement will be easy. But before anyone leaps in and starts working up a PCB design, be aware that on my one at least, a replacement panel will use LEDs not light bulbs. Once assembled I'd like to not have to frequently disassemble it, forever replacing dead bulbs. This overrides historical veracity. I can do the PCB myself. As for the LED color, how about super-bright blue? Or violet? Ha ha, just kidding. Dim warm orange it will be. The original power supply - I'm amazed to hear it was a simple ferro-resonant transformer regulated type, with just rectifiers and caps. How cool, that the computer circuits don't care if the DC rails are a little off. I hope I can find an original, since that really is part of the machine's historical nature. Guy From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 3 17:57:14 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 19:57:14 -0300 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181104092420.00e14000@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <5BDDE95E.4010900@pico-systems.com> <3.0.6.32.20181104092420.00e14000@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 2018-11-03 7:24 p.m., Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > ... > As for the LED color, how about super-bright blue? Or violet? RGB, shimmering and cycling, of course. /me runs From steven at malikoff.com Sat Nov 3 19:18:09 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 10:18:09 +1000 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <74b9a06b28eb7eab53c9980e004a0ce8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Guy said > This is rather sad. > I've received a PDP-8/S. It turns out to be missing so much, that it's probably beyond restoration. > Anyone who can think of potential ways to find the missing parts, please speak up. > > http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/ > The "PDP dash eight oblique S" back in 1968 in 'What the future sounded like': https://youtu.be/8KkW8Ul7Q1I?t=638 If there are any special 8/S lightbulb housings that were plastic, I'm happy to CAD them up and 3D print for your (er, museum's) machine at no cost, if I had some measurements or good photos. I'm only 'up the road' in Brisbane. Steve. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Nov 3 21:23:14 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 22:23:14 -0400 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <74b9a06b28eb7eab53c9980e004a0ce8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <74b9a06b28eb7eab53c9980e004a0ce8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 8:18 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Guy said > > ...I've received a PDP-8/S... > > The "PDP dash eight oblique S" back in 1968 in 'What the future sounded like': https://youtu.be/8KkW8Ul7Q1I?t=638 Fantastic little piece showing off one. > If there are any special 8/S lightbulb housings that were plastic, I'm happy to CAD them up and 3D print... Nope. That's now how these worked. The bulbs had "flying leads" coming out of the glass, no bases, and the light barrier was a bit of MDF with holes in it (the MDF is visible in at least one of Guy's photos). The bulbs just hovered over the PCB and just hung loose in the holes in the MDF. Later PDP-8 models used "bi-pin base" bulbs that had a factory-molded-on base and a pair of sturdy pins. There were plastic mounts by the early 1970s when DEC switched to LEDs. I've seen them in the PDP-8/M and the PDP-11/70, among other machines. There's a single and a triple shape. -ethan From steven at malikoff.com Sat Nov 3 21:48:29 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 12:48:29 +1000 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <74b9a06b28eb7eab53c9980e004a0ce8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <46e32df87f08a48246a6ad167382d0a9.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Ethan said >> If there are any special 8/S lightbulb housings that were plastic, I'm happy to CAD them up and 3D print... > > Nope. That's now how these worked. The bulbs had "flying leads" > coming out of the glass, no bases, and the light barrier was a bit of > MDF with holes in it (the MDF is visible in at least one of Guy's > photos). The bulbs just hovered over the PCB and just hung loose in > the holes in the MDF. Ah! ok thanks for clearing that up. It makes me wonder if the 11/15 is much the same. I have not got to looking at it properly, but I am sure it has a similar MDF base for the bulbs. > > Later PDP-8 models used "bi-pin base" bulbs that had a > factory-molded-on base and a pair of sturdy pins. Sounds very /360-ish :) > > There were plastic mounts by the early 1970s when DEC switched to > LEDs. I've seen them in the PDP-8/M and the PDP-11/70, among other > machines. There's a single and a triple shape. And also, as I have just found out, a 6-LED shape in the 11/05. I had already drawn up the 3-LED mount for the 11/03 (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2829191) but until I unscrewed the switch board from an 11/05 console a few minutes ago, found it actually has three 6-LED mounts and a single. I'll revise that thing shortly. Steve. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 3 23:17:20 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 04:17:20 +0000 Subject: UNIVAC 422 User Grouop Forming Please drop us a note offlist With SN of your unit and stats of operability and completeness and go withs. In-Reply-To: <166db71bee8-1ec6-3577@webjas-vac222.srv.aolmail.net> References: <166db71bee8-1ec6-3577@webjas-vac222.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: These sound really cool but I suspect the number of people with a Univac 422 are quite limited. Even those with Univac panel of any kind are quite limited. I see the web page has a OCR of the text. A photo copy of the manual would be great as well. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2018 2:19 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctech at classiccmp.org; director at smecc.org; couryhouse at aol.com Subject: UNIVAC 422 User Grouop Forming Please drop us a note offlist With SN of your unit and stats of operability and completeness and go withs. NOW FORMING - -UNIVAC 422 User Group and including The 422 and the prior UNIVAC DIGITAL TRAINER - (Is there a code compatibility?) Please drop us a note off list With SN of your unit and stats of if able to operate and completeness and go withs. Include a pic of you and your unit if you want to appear in 1st newsletter. Thanks Ed Sharpe Newsletter editor From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Nov 3 23:27:18 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2018 15:27:18 +1100 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <74b9a06b28eb7eab53c9980e004a0ce8.squirrel@webmail04.regist er.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181104152718.00e4e840@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 10:18 AM 4/11/2018 +1000, Steve wrote: >The "PDP dash eight oblique S" back in 1968 in 'What the future sounded like': https://youtu.be/8KkW8Ul7Q1I?t=638 Cool, thanks for that. Ah, Hawkwind... Damn, that 'left all the synths in the basement, and it got flooded' story is painful. In my opinion the ONLY way to preserve tech relics, is for individual(s) who understand the gear, to take personal responsibility for it. Companies, beancounters, economics... all are deadly enemies of historic artefacts and documents. Small world. All the way through that I was waiting for a mention of Fairlight Instruments (Synthesizer company in Sydney.) But none. Oh well. I worked at Fairlight from the mid 80s for several years (till they shut down.) There's even a clip online from Fairlight, with me in it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21S1Okh2nlc Fairlight Instruments Factory Tour 1986 part 2 Starting at 2:18, the young fellow with the dumb haircut and too shy to say anything to the camera, is me. Ha ha... and I can date that event as very shortly after I got married, since for the wedding was the only time in my entire life I ever shaved my beard off. I hate how I look without it. Since I married in June 1987, I think the year listed on the video is wrong. Oh, and then the camera pans to a proto-board circuit I was working on. It's a bit of a tangle. I think that was part of a video timebase corrector system I was working on. My proto board, I still have it. >If there are any special 8/S lightbulb housings that were plastic, I'm happy to CAD them up and 3D print for your (er, museum's) machine at no cost, if I had some measurements or good photos. >I'm only 'up the road' in Brisbane. Thanks for the offer, but it won't be necessary. I'm spending today cleaning the machine and working out exactly how to make the 'clear protective base.' Bought most of the materials today. The front panel is in pieces atm. And clean now. Incidentally, several people called the material used for the lamps shroud plate 'MDF.' It's not, it's that high density cloth+bakelite (or something) material used for electrical switchboard panels. Very tough stuff. I'll try to get a blog page started for this machine tonight, or at least by tomorrow. If you're ever down in Sydney and have spare time, you're welcome to visit. Address via email. Guy From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Sun Nov 4 00:19:31 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 22:19:31 -0700 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: That?s interesting stuff, get it done! :) On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 3:01 PM William Donzelli wrote: > I have quite few NSFnet backup tapes that need to go to Al at some > point. They likely have good stuff on them. > > -- > Will > On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 5:03 AM Kevin Bowling > wrote: > > > > Do you have software or docs for any of this stuff? I run > ps-2.kev009.com > > > > On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 3:41 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> OK, I assumed the 6611s used the NSFnet type cards. Artic960s are > >> different animals - but probably very similar in idea. > >> > >> My memory is hazy, but I think the NSFnet cards were referred to as > Hawthornes. > >> > >> Somewhere around here I have one of the really early 386 based routing > >> cards - a weird double height Microchannel card (the RS/6000s were > >> RPQ'd with extra tall chassis to accommodate them). > >> > >> Anyway, I would like to get a 6611, but I do not think very many were > >> made at all. > >> > >> -- > >> Will > >> On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 6:19 PM Paul Berger via cctalk > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > The machine type was 6611 and there where three model, the smallest > was > >> > based on a 7011 the mid size one was based on a 7012 and the largest > was > >> > based on a 7013. > >> > > >> > The base card is an Artic 960 card which is just a processor card with > >> > some memory that gets an application loaded on the fly. The top > >> > interface card has a lot to do with determining what the function of > the > >> > card sandwich is, there should be a X-Y type code on the back of the > >> > card that would define the interface. They where used for all kinds > of > >> > things like Synchronous communications, X25 and network accelerators. > >> > Some of the interfaces cards used in the 6611 where unique to it and > >> > never made it to the "standard" RS/6000 line. There was also a PCI > >> > version of the Artic 960 but by the time it came along the 6611 was > long > >> > gone. > >> > > >> > Paul. > >> > > >> > > >> > On 2018-11-01 1:15 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> So, what is this i960-based card for? > >> > > They were the routers. At the core nodes of the network, there would > >> > > be a big RS/6000s (very early POWER1 types) that would each do about > >> > > 4-5 high speed interfaces (FDDI, HSSI, and 10base2). Each interface > >> > > was one of these cards, so each of the big RS/6000s would have about > >> > > 4-5 of these cards. > >> > > > >> > > IBM tried to commercialize the design, but it was doomed - the > routing > >> > > engines were very fast, but the internet quickly outgrew the > >> > > architecture of the engines, and they apparently needed a complete > >> > > redesign to compete. IBM did release very few of these RS/6000s to > the > >> > > public (I think RS/6000-320Hs with a fancy tag - machine type > 6767?). > >> > > I have only seen one of these routers in the wild, but most of the > >> > > real NSFnet ones (I was decommissioning them, one time with a > Sawzall > >> > > because of some live tangled cables). > >> > > > >> > >> Could it be related to what you > >> > >> say in your post? > >> > >> > >> > >> https://imgur.com/NIvQPBv > >> > > Possibly related, but that card is not one of the NSFnet ones. > >> > > > >> > > -- > >> > > Will > >> > > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Nov 4 01:27:08 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 23:27:08 -0700 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181104152718.00e4e840@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181104152718.00e4e840@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <02E840D1-DDCA-4632-A8CF-DB31B7CA6556@shaw.ca> On 2018-Nov-03, at 9:27 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: . . . > The front panel is in pieces atm. And clean now. > Incidentally, several people called the material used for the lamps shroud plate 'MDF.' > It's not, it's that high density cloth+bakelite (or something) material used for electrical switchboard panels. Very tough stuff. Likely Micarta. (I don't think MDF existed at the time). From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 01:04:36 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 02:04:36 -0500 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181104152718.00e4e840@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181104152718.00e4e840@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 12:31 AM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > Incidentally, several people called the material used for the lamps shroud plate 'MDF.' > It's not, it's that high density cloth+bakelite (or something) material used for electrical switchboard panels. Very tough stuff. Ah. From the pictures, it looked like MDF. I haven't had the plexi off mine in a long time. I think some later DEC light blockers were MDF or perhaps something a bit denser, like but not exactly masonite. Definitely a fibrous wood product. -ethan From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 4 06:37:15 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 12:37:15 -0000 Subject: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 Message-ID: <00d401d4743b$1f0830f0$5d1892d0$@ntlworld.com> I have posted previously about a DEC Pro 350 I am trying to get working again. At the moment it seems to be constantly resetting the CPU. I have traced one possible path for the cause of this back to a NEC chip for which I cannot find a datasheet. It is a 40-pin DIP it is marked "NEC Japan 8239K6 D7201C". All I have been able to find is more modern USB host controllers. Can anyone tell me what it is? It is marked E32 (on the left about half way up) in this picture: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/system-board-labelled.jpg Thanks Rob From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 06:41:36 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 12:41:36 +0000 Subject: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 In-Reply-To: <00d401d4743b$1f0830f0$5d1892d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00d401d4743b$1f0830f0$5d1892d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 12:37 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I have posted previously about a DEC Pro 350 I am trying to get working > again. At the moment it seems to be constantly resetting the CPU. > > > > I have traced one possible path for the cause of this back to a NEC chip for > which I cannot find a datasheet. It is a 40-pin DIP it is marked "NEC Japan > 8239K6 D7201C". All I have been able to find is more modern USB host > controllers. Almost certainly a uPD7201 multi-protocol (asynchronous and synchronous) serial chip. I have an NEC data book with it in if all else fails but a google search for 'uPD7201 datasheet' (no quotes) found sites with the data sheet to download as a .pdf file. Quite why that should reset the machine is beyond me.... -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 4 07:10:47 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 13:10:47 -0000 Subject: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 In-Reply-To: References: <00d401d4743b$1f0830f0$5d1892d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00db01d4743f$cdf7ae70$69e70b50$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com] > Sent: 04 November 2018 12:42 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Jarratt RMA ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 12:37 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I have posted previously about a DEC Pro 350 I am trying to get > > working again. At the moment it seems to be constantly resetting the CPU. > > > > > > > > I have traced one possible path for the cause of this back to a NEC > > chip for which I cannot find a datasheet. It is a 40-pin DIP it is > > marked "NEC Japan > > 8239K6 D7201C". All I have been able to find is more modern USB host > > controllers. > > Almost certainly a uPD7201 multi-protocol (asynchronous and synchronous) > serial chip. I have an NEC data book with it in if all else fails but a google > search for 'uPD7201 datasheet' (no quotes) found sites with the data sheet > to download as a .pdf file. > > Quite why that should reset the machine is beyond me.... I have been trying to find what is driving this path in the logic and this chip was the only one I for which I couldn't identify the pins, but it seems that from this datasheet (https://datasheet4u.com/datasheet-pdf-file/1098405/NEC/UPD7201/1) they are all inputs and not outputs. So I need to look again for an output pin that is driving this signal. Thanks Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Nov 4 07:12:18 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 08:12:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S Message-ID: <20181104131218.E77B018C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steven Malikoff >> The bulbs had "flying leads" coming out of the glass, no bases ... The >> bulbs just hovered over the PCB > It makes me wonder if the 11/15 is much the same. I just had a look at my -11/20 (the two are basically the same machine; the /15 was intended for the OEM market, the /20 the end-user), and it has an intermediate between this, and the final incandescent bulb form (as on the -11/45), where there were bulbs with plastic bases plugged into sockets. The -11/20 has the same bulbs, but apparently soldered directly into the panel; I looked at the prints (it's in the 'KY11-A Programmer's Console' stuff - I see Manx says the prints aren't online, I'll have to scan my set), and there are bulbs in the parts list, but no sockets. > From: Ethan Dicks > I think some later DEC light blockers were MDF or perhaps something a > bit denser .. Definitely a fibrous wood product. Per the prints, the later ones were Benelex, an early form of MDF (although some -11's later used thick sheet aluminium). Noel From edcross at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 07:47:05 2018 From: edcross at gmail.com (Eduardo Cruz) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 14:47:05 +0100 Subject: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 In-Reply-To: <00db01d4743f$cdf7ae70$69e70b50$@ntlworld.com> References: <00d401d4743b$1f0830f0$5d1892d0$@ntlworld.com> <00db01d4743f$cdf7ae70$69e70b50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <8192758C-C12F-4C88-8A2E-B0D3868C4CE7@gmail.com> A constant pulsing reset is usually a watchdog at play. Hardware watchdogs are usually implemented in systems to reset everything should the system not meet one specific criteria: eg cpu touch one memory address before X amount of time, or pcb voltage lower than X volts, etc. Watchdogs are also usually found as software routines executed by the cpu also looking for specific conditions. These rarely issue a reset hardware signal, just restar the program. Sent from my iPhone > On 4 Nov 2018, at 14:10, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com] >> Sent: 04 November 2018 12:42 >> To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Jarratt RMA ; General >> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 >> >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 12:37 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk >> wrote: >>> >>> I have posted previously about a DEC Pro 350 I am trying to get >>> working again. At the moment it seems to be constantly resetting the CPU. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have traced one possible path for the cause of this back to a NEC >>> chip for which I cannot find a datasheet. It is a 40-pin DIP it is >>> marked "NEC Japan >>> 8239K6 D7201C". All I have been able to find is more modern USB host >>> controllers. >> >> Almost certainly a uPD7201 multi-protocol (asynchronous and synchronous) >> serial chip. I have an NEC data book with it in if all else fails but a google >> search for 'uPD7201 datasheet' (no quotes) found sites with the data sheet >> to download as a .pdf file. >> >> Quite why that should reset the machine is beyond me.... > > I have been trying to find what is driving this path in the logic and this chip was the only one I for which I couldn't identify the pins, but it seems that from this datasheet (https://datasheet4u.com/datasheet-pdf-file/1098405/NEC/UPD7201/1) they are all inputs and not outputs. So I need to look again for an output pin that is driving this signal. > > Thanks > > Rob > From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Nov 4 08:08:23 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 07:08:23 -0700 Subject: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 In-Reply-To: <8192758C-C12F-4C88-8A2E-B0D3868C4CE7@gmail.com> References: <00d401d4743b$1f0830f0$5d1892d0$@ntlworld.com> <00db01d4743f$cdf7ae70$69e70b50$@ntlworld.com> <8192758C-C12F-4C88-8A2E-B0D3868C4CE7@gmail.com> Message-ID: I know that the Rainbow's AFU watchdog was the bane of my existence back in the day... It would fire if interrupts were disabled too long. Warner On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:47 AM Eduardo Cruz via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > A constant pulsing reset is usually a watchdog at play. Hardware watchdogs > are usually implemented in systems to reset everything should the system > not meet one specific criteria: eg cpu touch one memory address before X > amount of time, or pcb voltage lower than X volts, etc. > > Watchdogs are also usually found as software routines executed by the cpu > also looking for specific conditions. These rarely issue a reset hardware > signal, just restar the program. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 4 Nov 2018, at 14:10, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com] > >> Sent: 04 November 2018 12:42 > >> To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Jarratt RMA ; > General > >> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 > >> > >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 12:37 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> I have posted previously about a DEC Pro 350 I am trying to get > >>> working again. At the moment it seems to be constantly resetting the > CPU. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I have traced one possible path for the cause of this back to a NEC > >>> chip for which I cannot find a datasheet. It is a 40-pin DIP it is > >>> marked "NEC Japan > >>> 8239K6 D7201C". All I have been able to find is more modern USB host > >>> controllers. > >> > >> Almost certainly a uPD7201 multi-protocol (asynchronous and synchronous) > >> serial chip. I have an NEC data book with it in if all else fails but a > google > >> search for 'uPD7201 datasheet' (no quotes) found sites with the data > sheet > >> to download as a .pdf file. > >> > >> Quite why that should reset the machine is beyond me.... > > > > I have been trying to find what is driving this path in the logic and > this chip was the only one I for which I couldn't identify the pins, but it > seems that from this datasheet ( > https://datasheet4u.com/datasheet-pdf-file/1098405/NEC/UPD7201/1) they > are all inputs and not outputs. So I need to look again for an output pin > that is driving this signal. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 09:42:18 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 10:42:18 -0500 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: William Donzelli wrote: >> So, what is this i960-based card for? > They were the routers. At the core nodes of the network, there would > be a big RS/6000s (very early POWER1 types) that would each do about > 4-5 high speed interfaces (FDDI, HSSI, and 10base2). Each interface > was one of these cards, so each of the big RS/6000s would have about > 4-5 of these cards. > > IBM tried to commercialize the design, but it was doomed - the routing > engines were very fast, but the internet quickly outgrew the > architecture of the engines, and they apparently needed a complete > redesign to compete. IBM did release very few of these RS/6000s to the > public (I think RS/6000-320Hs with a fancy tag - machine type 6767?). > I have only seen one of these routers in the wild, but most of the > real NSFnet ones (I was decommissioning them, one time with a Sawzall > because of some live tangled cables). > >> Could it be related to what you >> say in your post? >> >> https://imgur.com/NIvQPBv > Possibly related, but that card is not one of the NSFnet ones. > > -- > Will After searching the web for a while, I finally discovered what this is:? the key is that it is a "2-O" mca adapter, and it is a V.35 communications adapter.? But I also learned that IBM produced a series of adapters hosting an i960 consisting of a processor card and a daughter card; the daughter card would have the specifics for the kind of interface that was implemented (rs232, rs422, X.25, etc).? These adapters were called "ARTIC960 coprocessors".? They were first produced for microchannel, later for PCI.? You could develop code for it in an rs/6000 system, and then load on the adapter and run it: http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/communications/aa6proggde.pdf carlos. From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Nov 4 09:58:56 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2018 09:58:56 -0600 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <46e32df87f08a48246a6ad167382d0a9.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <74b9a06b28eb7eab53c9980e004a0ce8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <46e32df87f08a48246a6ad167382d0a9.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <5BDF1740.3030109@pico-systems.com> On 11/03/2018 09:48 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Later PDP-8 models used "bi-pin base" bulbs that had a > factory-molded-on base and a pair of sturdy pins. > Sounds very /360-ish :) Well, sort of the same idea, but not that close. The 360 had metal cases with the pins in a plastic rear piece, and a loose wired bulb inside, and a plastic front that could be colored. The later PDP bulbs had a bare bulb with a molded plastic fitting at the back. I don't remember whether the bulb had the big pins embedded in the glass, or the pins were attached to thin wires and then the joint was embedded in the plastic. There were a lot of commercial bi-pin base bulbs made back in the 1970's. Jon From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Nov 4 11:00:28 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 12:00:28 -0500 Subject: UNIVAC 422 User Grouop Forming Please drop us a note offlist With SN of your unit and stats of operability and completeness and go withs. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <166dfab2aec-1ec8-3f48@webjas-vab239.srv.aolmail.net> there? are? ?2? manuals? one is the? ?art? ?version? ? the other one? is a? programmers? one? but? the? ? ocr is? ?horrible? towards? end.? I? think? there? ?are? one or? 2? more things? around? here? too. There? must? have been? some of? these units that? survived? aside? from ours? ? ? Ed# ? ? ? In a message dated 11/3/2018 9:17:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, dkelvey at hotmail.com writes: ? These sound really cool but I suspect the number of people with a Univac 422 are quite limited. Even those with Univac panel of any kind are quite limited. I see the web page has a OCR of the text. A photo copy of the manual would be great as well. Dwight ? From: cctalk on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2018 2:19 PM To:cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctech at classiccmp.org; director at smecc.org; couryhouse at aol.com Subject: UNIVAC 422 User Grouop Forming Please drop us a note offlist With SN of your unit and stats of operability and completeness and go withs.? NOW FORMING - -UNIVAC 422 User Group and? including? The? 422 and? the prior UNIVAC DIGITAL TRAINER? - (Is there a? code compatibility?) ? Please drop us a note off list? With SN of your unit and stats of if able to? operate and completeness and go withs. Include a? pic? of? you and? your? unit if? you? ?want to appear in 1st? newsletter. ? Thanks? Ed Sharpe? Newsletter editor From tsg at bonedaddy.net Sun Nov 4 11:37:41 2018 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 12:37:41 -0500 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <83145888-c315-2af0-1932-58cf2a8ebfa8@bonedaddy.net> Yes, a company I was working for OEMed what because IBM's X25Net software and it was ported to their RTIC i960 cards from our own homegrown i960 cards. The IBM group we worked with was in La Gaude France but we heard the RTIC cards were developed in Boca Raton, FL. We ran VxWorks on them. Todd On 11/4/2018 10:42 AM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: >>> So, what is this i960-based card for? >> They were the routers. At the core nodes of the network, there would >> be a big RS/6000s (very early POWER1 types) that would each do about >> 4-5 high speed interfaces (FDDI, HSSI, and 10base2). Each interface >> was one of these cards, so each of the big RS/6000s would have about >> 4-5 of these cards. >> >> IBM tried to commercialize the design, but it was doomed - the routing >> engines were very fast, but the internet quickly outgrew the >> architecture of the engines, and they apparently needed a complete >> redesign to compete. IBM did release very few of these RS/6000s to the >> public (I think RS/6000-320Hs with a fancy tag - machine type 6767?). >> I have only seen one of these routers in the wild, but most of the >> real NSFnet ones (I was decommissioning them, one time with a Sawzall >> because of some live tangled cables). >> >>> Could it be related to what you >>> say in your post? >>> >>> https://imgur.com/NIvQPBv >> Possibly related, but that card is not one of the NSFnet ones. >> >> -- >> Will > After searching the web for a while, I finally discovered what this > is:? the key is that it is a "2-O" mca adapter, and it is a V.35 > communications adapter.? But I also learned that IBM produced a series > of adapters hosting an i960 consisting of a processor card and a > daughter card; the daughter card would have the specifics for the kind > of interface that was implemented (rs232, rs422, X.25, etc).? These > adapters were called "ARTIC960 coprocessors".? They were first > produced for microchannel, later for PCI.? You could develop code for > it in an rs/6000 system, and then load on the adapter and run it: > > http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/communications/aa6proggde.pdf > > carlos. > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 11:38:25 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 12:38:25 -0500 Subject: Modcomp VME bus 68000 computer Message-ID: Hello, been a while since ive written to the list. I met someone the other day that used to work for modcomp. He gave me a tour, he still has working modcomp computers in his home. He was clearing out a bunch of stuff, he gave me a bunch of terminals and dos era computers. Among the computers is a modcomp branded motorolla 68k based machine. I can not find any information on the system. From what i understand, the system was to be tied in to the modcomp minicomputer bus and used as a modern alternative for large antiquated disks and tapes. There is a large pair of interface connectors on the back, never seen anything like them before. I do not have a modomp computer yet, but this 68k machine looks quite interesting. It is essentially a vme bus backpane in a desktop computer case. A hard disk and tape drive are installed. Looks to have floating point and network card as well. I managed to make the proper serial cable, and was able to get to a debugger and monitor at power on. I was under the understanding that this machine could run a port of unix to 68k, called unix/68. I am uncertain of any details on the machine, i was hoping someone here could me in the right direction of getting the machine to boot. The drive still spins up, it may even have an install of unix on it, i might have to type in some kind of boot parameter or jump to some address from the monitor to kick off the boot process. Any advice on how to proceed is appreciated. Within the following month i am supposed to get a mountain of modcomp documentation, ill have to check back here and see if its duplicate or original information and scan it all. He was also going to give me a copy of a modcomp emulator he wrote, I have found no such thing elsewhere on line, so perhaps it would be of use to someone else here too once i get it. --Devin D. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Nov 4 11:46:35 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 09:46:35 -0800 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: <83145888-c315-2af0-1932-58cf2a8ebfa8@bonedaddy.net> References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> <83145888-c315-2af0-1932-58cf2a8ebfa8@bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: > On Nov 4, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Todd Goodman via cctalk wrote: > > Yes, a company I was working for OEMed what because IBM's X25Net software and it was ported to their RTIC i960 cards from our own homegrown i960 cards. > > The IBM group we worked with was in La Gaude France but we heard the RTIC cards were developed in Boca Raton, FL. > Yes, the RTIC cards were developed in Boca Raton. I had a number of friends that worked in that group over the years. They were in a building off of the main site that was the last to be closed down when IBM decided to close the Boca Raton site down. TTFN - Guy From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 4 12:22:16 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 18:22:16 +0000 Subject: UNIVAC 422 User Grouop Forming Please drop us a note offlist With SN of your unit and stats of operability and completeness and go withs. In-Reply-To: <166dfab2aec-1ec8-3f48@webjas-vab239.srv.aolmail.net> References: , <166dfab2aec-1ec8-3f48@webjas-vab239.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: I was curious. It would seem that it would be easy enough to make an emulator or simulator for but the OCR is really bad. There may be one out there. It would be a shame if yours was the last one. Dwight ________________________________ From: ED SHARPE Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2018 9:00 AM To: dkelvey at hotmail.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: UNIVAC 422 User Grouop Forming Please drop us a note offlist With SN of your unit and stats of operability and completeness and go withs. there are 2 manuals one is the art version the other one is a programmers one but the ocr is horrible towards end. I think there are one or 2 more things around here too. There must have been some of these units that survived? aside from ours? Ed# In a message dated 11/3/2018 9:17:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, dkelvey at hotmail.com writes: These sound really cool but I suspect the number of people with a Univac 422 are quite limited. Even those with Univac panel of any kind are quite limited. I see the web page has a OCR of the text. A photo copy of the manual would be great as well. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk > on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk > Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2018 2:19 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctech at classiccmp.org; director at smecc.org; couryhouse at aol.com Subject: UNIVAC 422 User Grouop Forming Please drop us a note offlist With SN of your unit and stats of operability and completeness and go withs. NOW FORMING - -UNIVAC 422 User Group and including The 422 and the prior UNIVAC DIGITAL TRAINER - (Is there a code compatibility?) Please drop us a note off list With SN of your unit and stats of if able to operate and completeness and go withs. Include a pic of you and your unit if you want to appear in 1st newsletter. Thanks Ed Sharpe Newsletter editor From erik at baigar.de Sun Nov 4 13:29:54 2018 From: erik at baigar.de (erik at baigar.de) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2018 19:29:54 +0000 Subject: ROLM 1601 (RuggedNova) 1970 Brochure Message-ID: <1541356194841.null> Hi Bill, many thanks for the efforts spent on scanning those fantastic brochures. I have some of the 1602s and a MSE14, but has any one out there seen a 1601 in real life? Was this really sold or was it still a paper-machine as it was replaced by the 1602? Any comment from contemporary witnesses is highly appreciated ;-) Thanks again to Bill, Erik. e--- Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > For those interested in Rolm / Data General Nova Minicomputers I have > scanned the hard-to-find Rolm Corp Rugged Nova 1601 brochure from 1970. I > also scanned what price and module docs I have and uploaded them all here: > > https://www.vintagecomputer.net/ROLM/1601/ > > I don't believe this has been uploaded by anyone yet. > > Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 13:42:40 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 14:42:40 -0500 Subject: ROLM 1601 (RuggedNova) 1970 Brochure In-Reply-To: <5bdf4855.1c69fb81.ee19e.8b7cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5bdf4855.1c69fb81.ee19e.8b7cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I may have more 1601 stuff, if I find I will scan and post. I know there is the upcoming Nova event so I thought this would be good timing. I have a lot of Nova docstoo, but I believe they're already posted on the WWW. Bill On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 2:28 PM erik--- via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > many thanks for the efforts spent on scanning those fantastic > brochures. I have some of the 1602s and a MSE14, but has any one > out there seen a 1601 in real life? Was this really sold or was > it still a paper-machine as it was replaced by the 1602? > > Any comment from contemporary witnesses is highly appreciated ;-) > > Thanks again to Bill, > > Erik. > > e--- Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > For those interested in Rolm / Data General Nova Minicomputers I have > > scanned the hard-to-find Rolm Corp Rugged Nova 1601 brochure from 1970. > I > > also scanned what price and module docs I have and uploaded them all > here: > > > > https://www.vintagecomputer.net/ROLM/1601/ > > > > I don't believe this has been uploaded by anyone yet. > > > > Bill > > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sun Nov 4 13:44:45 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2018 06:44:45 +1100 Subject: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <5BDF1740.3030109@pico-systems.com> References: <46e32df87f08a48246a6ad167382d0a9.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <3.0.6.32.20181103151316.00e426c8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <74b9a06b28eb7eab53c9980e004a0ce8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <46e32df87f08a48246a6ad167382d0a9.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181105064445.010e4e10@mail.optusnet.com.au> The writeup for this machine is here: http://everist.org/NobLog/20181104_PDP-8S.htm For those who are interested. Guy From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 14:06:57 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 15:06:57 -0500 Subject: ROLM 1601 (RuggedNova) 1970 Brochure In-Reply-To: References: <5bdf4855.1c69fb81.ee19e.8b7cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: > I know there > is the upcoming Nova event so I thought this would be good timing. You missed it! -- Will From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 14:15:31 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 15:15:31 -0500 Subject: How to work out unknown PSU replacement References: <8f466fa4-8cc8-fdf5-eefa-7fccfd970bee@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2CA5050D22604C839FE9889893AEB8F0@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Graham via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2018 4:59 AM Subject: Re: How to work out unknown PSU replacement ... > Today I?ll break out the ?tin foil covered sponge? method of tracing any other points on the board that I might have missed last night. --- "Tin foil covered sponge" ??? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 4 15:11:20 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 21:11:20 -0000 Subject: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 In-Reply-To: <8192758C-C12F-4C88-8A2E-B0D3868C4CE7@gmail.com> References: <00d401d4743b$1f0830f0$5d1892d0$@ntlworld.com> <00db01d4743f$cdf7ae70$69e70b50$@ntlworld.com> <8192758C-C12F-4C88-8A2E-B0D3868C4CE7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <010501d47482$f04e70b0$d0eb5210$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Eduardo Cruz [mailto:edcross at gmail.com] > Sent: 04 November 2018 13:47 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Tony Duell > Subject: Re: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 > > A constant pulsing reset is usually a watchdog at play. Hardware watchdogs > are usually implemented in systems to reset everything should the system > not meet one specific criteria: eg cpu touch one memory address before X > amount of time, or pcb voltage lower than X volts, etc. > > Watchdogs are also usually found as software routines executed by the cpu > also looking for specific conditions. These rarely issue a reset hardware signal, > just restar the program. > It looks to me like the reset is every 10us. I don't know how long the watchdog is likely to be, the technical manual I have doesn't seem to mention it in the section on the reset logic. I am still trying to find the source of the signal that seems to be in the "wrong" state. Regards Rob From edcross at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 15:36:26 2018 From: edcross at gmail.com (Ed C.) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 22:36:26 +0100 Subject: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 In-Reply-To: <010501d47482$f04e70b0$d0eb5210$@ntlworld.com> References: <00d401d4743b$1f0830f0$5d1892d0$@ntlworld.com> <00db01d4743f$cdf7ae70$69e70b50$@ntlworld.com> <8192758C-C12F-4C88-8A2E-B0D3868C4CE7@gmail.com> <010501d47482$f04e70b0$d0eb5210$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Just had a look to this manual: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/EK-PC350-TM-001_Professional_300_Series_Technical_Manual_Dec82.pdf 5.2.3.4 Power-Up Self-Tests, this section mentions the existence of rom containing basic power up tests. I assume you are not even getting there and your system fails to execute from this rom and report any errors on screen? In such case, A) is your cpu working? B) Is the rom code correct? On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 10:11 PM Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Eduardo Cruz [mailto:edcross at gmail.com] > > Sent: 04 November 2018 13:47 > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; > General > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Cc: Tony Duell > > Subject: Re: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 > > > > A constant pulsing reset is usually a watchdog at play. Hardware > watchdogs > > are usually implemented in systems to reset everything should the system > > not meet one specific criteria: eg cpu touch one memory address before X > > amount of time, or pcb voltage lower than X volts, etc. > > > > Watchdogs are also usually found as software routines executed by the cpu > > also looking for specific conditions. These rarely issue a reset hardware > signal, > > just restar the program. > > > > It looks to me like the reset is every 10us. I don't know how long the > watchdog is likely to be, the technical manual I have doesn't seem to > mention it in the section on the reset logic. I am still trying to find the > source of the signal that seems to be in the "wrong" state. > > Regards > > Rob > > From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 15:48:16 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 16:48:16 -0500 Subject: How to work out unknown PSU replacement In-Reply-To: <2CA5050D22604C839FE9889893AEB8F0@310e2> References: <8f466fa4-8cc8-fdf5-eefa-7fccfd970bee@gmail.com> <2CA5050D22604C839FE9889893AEB8F0@310e2> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 4, 2018, 16:23 Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Adrian Graham via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2018 4:59 AM > Subject: Re: How to work out unknown PSU replacement > ... > > Today I?ll break out the ?tin foil covered sponge? method of tracing any > other points on the board that I might have missed last night. > --- > "Tin foil covered sponge" ??? > Connect one lead of the multimeter to some pin/net you want to trace. Then, connect the other lead to a foil-covered sponge (or metallic brush) and brush it over the PCB backside, stopping when you hear the continuity alert. Not useful generally for big nets that connect everywhere, and not very useful for SMT boards; good for through-hole stuff though. Kyle > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 15:55:32 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 16:55:32 -0500 Subject: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 In-Reply-To: References: <00d401d4743b$1f0830f0$5d1892d0$@ntlworld.com> <00db01d4743f$cdf7ae70$69e70b50$@ntlworld.com> <8192758C-C12F-4C88-8A2E-B0D3868C4CE7@gmail.com> <010501d47482$f04e70b0$d0eb5210$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: There was a NEC CPU upgrade kit, one used to replace the stock CPU, is this what you're talking about here? If so, I believe there was a battery that went with the chip. If the battery is dead the chip would not work. Or am I totally remember this wrong? b On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 4:36 PM Ed C. via cctalk wrote: > Just had a look to this manual: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/EK-PC350-TM-001_Professional_300_Series_Technical_Manual_Dec82.pdf > > 5.2.3.4 Power-Up Self-Tests, this section mentions the existence of rom > containing basic power up tests. I assume you are not even getting there > and your system fails to execute from this rom and report any errors on > screen? > > In such case, A) is your cpu working? B) Is the rom code correct? > > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 10:11 PM Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Eduardo Cruz [mailto:edcross at gmail.com] > > > Sent: 04 November 2018 13:47 > > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; > > General > > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Cc: Tony Duell > > > Subject: Re: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 > > > > > > A constant pulsing reset is usually a watchdog at play. Hardware > > watchdogs > > > are usually implemented in systems to reset everything should the > system > > > not meet one specific criteria: eg cpu touch one memory address before > X > > > amount of time, or pcb voltage lower than X volts, etc. > > > > > > Watchdogs are also usually found as software routines executed by the > cpu > > > also looking for specific conditions. These rarely issue a reset > hardware > > signal, > > > just restar the program. > > > > > > > It looks to me like the reset is every 10us. I don't know how long the > > watchdog is likely to be, the technical manual I have doesn't seem to > > mention it in the section on the reset logic. I am still trying to find > the > > source of the signal that seems to be in the "wrong" state. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 15:56:48 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 16:56:48 -0500 Subject: How to work out unknown PSU replacement References: <8f466fa4-8cc8-fdf5-eefa-7fccfd970bee@gmail.com> <2CA5050D22604C839FE9889893AEB8F0@310e2> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kyle Owen via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2018 4:48 PM Subject: Re: How to work out unknown PSU replacement On Sun, Nov 4, 2018, 16:23 Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Adrian Graham via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2018 4:59 AM > Subject: Re: How to work out unknown PSU replacement > ... > > Today I?ll break out the ?tin foil covered sponge? method of tracing any > other points on the board that I might have missed last night. > --- > "Tin foil covered sponge" ??? > -- > Connect one lead of the multimeter to some pin/net you want to trace. Then, connect the other lead to a foil-covered sponge (or metallic brush) and brush it over the PCB backside, stopping when you hear the continuity alert. Not useful generally for big nets that connect everywhere, and not very useful for SMT boards; good for through-hole stuff though. Kyle ---------------- Neat trick; surprised I'd never heard of it before in my decades of trouble-shooting. Then again, at my advanced age and senility I might just have forgotten... ;-) Thanks! > From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 16:00:40 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 17:00:40 -0500 Subject: How to work out unknown PSU replacement In-Reply-To: References: <8f466fa4-8cc8-fdf5-eefa-7fccfd970bee@gmail.com> <2CA5050D22604C839FE9889893AEB8F0@310e2> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 4, 2018, 16:56 Mike Stein wrote: > > Neat trick; surprised I'd never heard of it before in my decades of > trouble-shooting. Then again, at my advanced age and senility I might just > have forgotten... ;-) > > Thanks! > > > Hah! Probably also best to discharge the caps before proceeding; I could imagine some major damage resulting if voltages were still present! :) Kyle > From steven at malikoff.com Sun Nov 4 19:33:28 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 11:33:28 +1000 Subject: KC11 with KY-11C vs KA11 with KY11-A Re: A very sad PDP-8/S In-Reply-To: <20181104131218.E77B018C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181104131218.E77B018C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Noel said > I just had a look at my -11/20 (the two are basically the same machine; the > /15 was intended for the OEM market, the /20 the end-user), and it has an > intermediate between this, and the final incandescent bulb form (as on the > -11/45), where there were bulbs with plastic bases plugged into sockets. > > The -11/20 has the same bulbs, but apparently soldered directly into the > panel; I looked at the prints (it's in the 'KY11-A Programmer's Console' > stuff - I see Manx says the prints aren't online, I'll have to scan my set), > and there are bulbs in the parts list, but no sockets. The 11/15 I have appears to be a KC11 with KY-11C console board. I have the complete print set for this 11/15, a while ago I was asked for a partial scan of the KY-11C pages by another 11/15 owner as it differed sufficiently from the 11/20 print set and apparently the scan was just what was needed. I don't know if that person is on cctalk though, if so please pipe up. Since I have not found this anywhere (please correct me accordingly) I hope to get to scan the 11/15 print set, on my little A4 scanner it's going to take rather a lot of time. Steve. From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Sun Nov 4 22:35:17 2018 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 04:35:17 +0000 Subject: RS/6000 values Message-ID: Hi there! I don't usually see much discussion on old IBM boxes, but I was looking for a reasonably-powerful RS/6000 that can run AIX 4.1 and maybe 3.2.5, can accommodate some decent disks, and isn't 200lbs. The 7012-390 looks perfect, but I found this one on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-7012-390-POWER2-512MB-Memory-1GB-SCSI-2-Disk-Drive-CD-Base-Features-RS6000/272362237797?epid=1604049867&hash=item3f6a0def65:g:aJQAAOSwHnFVmutE:rk:1:pf:1 Are 7012-390's really worth $3,000? Anyone out there have one they'd like to unload for less than 3 grand? :P Thanks! -Ben From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Nov 4 23:06:56 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 21:06:56 -0800 Subject: RS/6000 values In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7784E7D8-F3EB-4492-BFE7-F1812DA5867A@avanthar.com> They?re a nice box, I had one on my desk at work about 20 years ago. My guess is it?s someone hoping to find some business that *NEEDS* one and is willing to pay an insane amount of money. Zane > On Nov 4, 2018, at 8:35 PM, Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk wrote: > > Hi there! > > I don't usually see much discussion on old IBM boxes, but I was looking for a reasonably-powerful RS/6000 that can run AIX 4.1 and maybe 3.2.5, can accommodate some decent disks, and isn't 200lbs. The 7012-390 looks perfect, but I found this one on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-7012-390-POWER2-512MB-Memory-1GB-SCSI-2-Disk-Drive-CD-Base-Features-RS6000/272362237797?epid=1604049867&hash=item3f6a0def65:g:aJQAAOSwHnFVmutE:rk:1:pf:1 > > > Are 7012-390's really worth $3,000? Anyone out there have one they'd like to unload for less than 3 grand? :P > > > Thanks! > > > -Ben > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Nov 4 23:10:36 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 21:10:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: RS/6000 values In-Reply-To: from Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk at "Nov 5, 18 04:35:17 am" Message-ID: <201811050510.wA55AaGR20644092@floodgap.com> > I don't usually see much discussion on old IBM boxes, but I was looking > for a reasonably-powerful RS/6000 that can run AIX 4.1 If you're not desperate for 3.2.5, you could also consider an Apple Network Server, which can run their own version of 4.1.4 and 4.1.5. Those pop up now and then as well. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Eggheads unite! You have nothing to lose but your yolks. -- Adlai Stevenson From erik at baigar.de Mon Nov 5 12:16:41 2018 From: erik at baigar.de (erik at baigar.de) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2018 18:16:41 +0000 Subject: ROLM 1601 (RuggedNova) 1970 Brochure Message-ID: <1541438201496.null> Hi Bill! --- Bill Degnan wrote: > I may have more 1601 stuff, if I find I will scan and post Many thanks for your efforts - these documents look very interesting. Given the fact, that Rolm was founded in 1969, I really guess that by the time the brochure was printed, no running hardware existed at all. Maybe they had first PCBs and an idea how to implement the Nova architecture using the MIL SPEC chips available. So the 1601 probably only exists on paper! > .?? I know there is the upcoming Nova event so I As Will mentioned, this was 10 days ago. It was really a cool event with lot of interesting people and their reminiscences and memories from the good old days where very exciting! I had some slides on the impact of the Nova architecture on military com- puting, but the 1601 of course was missing in my time-line... Have a good time and best wishes, Erik. From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 11:30:53 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 12:30:53 -0500 Subject: ROLM 1601 (RuggedNova) 1970 Brochure In-Reply-To: <5be07b09.1c69fb81.e1fe6.1892SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5be07b09.1c69fb81.e1fe6.1892SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: BTW - there is no evidence that the 1601 was not produced at all, is there? The brochure came from a local office near where I used to live in New Jersey USA. It could be that very few were made, what I need to do is cross reference with other sources I may have. b On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 12:16 PM erik--- via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Bill! > > --- Bill Degnan wrote: > > I may have more 1601 stuff, if I find I will scan and post > > Many thanks for your efforts - these documents look very interesting. > Given the fact, that Rolm was founded in 1969, I really guess that by > the time the brochure was printed, no running hardware existed at all. > Maybe they had first PCBs and an idea how to implement the Nova > architecture using the MIL SPEC chips available. So the 1601 probably > only exists on paper! > > > . I know there is the upcoming Nova event so I > > As Will mentioned, this was 10 days ago. It was really a cool > event with lot of interesting people and their reminiscences and > memories from the good old days where very exciting! I had some > slides on the impact of the Nova architecture on military com- > puting, but the 1601 of course was missing in my time-line... > > Have a good time and best wishes, > > Erik. > > > From erik at baigar.de Mon Nov 5 12:50:50 2018 From: erik at baigar.de (erik at baigar.de) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2018 18:50:50 +0000 Subject: ROLM 1601 (RuggedNova) 1970 Brochure Message-ID: <1541440250285.null> Hi Bill, thanks again for your considerations! --- Bill Degnan wrote: > BTW - there is no evidence that the 1601 was not produced > at all, is there??? No, there is no evidence. But they founded ROLM in 1969 and they had no experience on designing a MIL-SPEC computer (until than only highly specialized MIL-SPEC computers had been designed taking years each) and only limited experience on computers at all. So I can hardly imagine, that they founded ROLM, agreed with DG on the architecture, developed the design, implemented the shock and heat management, tested against the MIL-SPECs set up production within only 2 years. Here is a nice video of a discussion with the founders recorded by the CHM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyTuxVQgw6c > The brochure came from a local office near where I used to live in > New Jersey USA.?? It could be that very few were made Yes, maybe some where made for trade shows and to try out how to build a MIL-SPEC computer. But regarding commercial sales I am still sceptic (no proof as you say)... Thanks, Erik. From technoid6502 at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 15:49:35 2018 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2018 16:49:35 -0500 Subject: Rugged Nova In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I got into the Data General scene in the late 1990's, when I received an Eclipse as a gift from a client who no longer needed it. In my search for docs, software, and other information I met some interesting people. One was in the Navy in the 1980's in data processing. He recounted to me: I was visiting a hangar where machines were being warehoused and tested prior to acceptance. I saw a lot of odd tests conducted, shocks, water, fire, smoke, the works, or so I thought. Once when there I saw a Hawk (That was a Data General milspec 'Eagle' - Eclipse 32 bit machine) suspended by chains from the overhead of the hangar. I was mesmerized as two weights were released from two chains on opposite sides of the machine as it was running. The two weights slammed into the sides of the machine at approximately the same time and the results were pretty spectacular. It sounded like someone blew up the Liberty bell, or crashed a VW into a lightpole. The machine continued to function! Most of the things that went on around there were classified to some degree or other and one got used to not asking questions, but as I looked over in bewilderment to my buddy in the group of tester, he said to me darkly "Depth Charges". Jeff From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 16:48:22 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 17:48:22 -0500 Subject: Modcomp aquired Message-ID: Soon to be picked up and brought home. Lots of documentation with it as well. Christmas came early, eager to get it home and set up. https://postimg.cc/gallery/wb1z90m2/ --Devin D. From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Nov 5 16:56:42 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 14:56:42 -0800 Subject: Modcomp aquired In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7288E533-AAB5-4BEA-A3C3-1075C34C0F0E@avanthar.com> Congrats! With that colour scheme, that's one gorgeous front panel. Zane > On Nov 5, 2018, at 2:48 PM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > Soon to be picked up and brought home. Lots of documentation with it as > well. Christmas came early, eager to get it home and set up. > > https://postimg.cc/gallery/wb1z90m2/ > > > --Devin D. From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Nov 5 17:09:46 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 18:09:46 -0500 Subject: Modcomp aquired In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <166e6239ec1-1ec2-5d68@webjas-vaa231.srv.aolmail.net> congrats? look? ?great! I? remember? way? ? back? ?I met one of their? reps and? he? was telling me? some of these? were using in airplane simulators? too. ? In a message dated 11/5/2018 3:48:41 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Soon to be picked up and brought home. Lots of documentation with it as well. Christmas came early, eager to get it home and set up. https://postimg.cc/gallery/wb1z90m2/ --Devin D. From steven at malikoff.com Mon Nov 5 17:10:04 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 09:10:04 +1000 Subject: Modcomp aquired In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54a3a505c73da1fc89de9f6ce7942d2c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Devin said > Soon to be picked up and brought home. Lots of documentation with it as > well. Christmas came early, eager to get it home and set up. > > https://postimg.cc/gallery/wb1z90m2/ > > > --Devin D. > There's something rather quaint about a classic computer actually having 'CLASSIC' on its front panel, nice find. In the Tidbinbilla NASA Deep Space tracking station near Canberra Oz there is an older Modcomp on display in the museum there complete with two Diablo 31's. It was the 'Telemetry Processor Assembly' installed in 1978, replaced 1993. I have some photos of it somewhere. Steve. From rickb at bensene.com Mon Nov 5 18:19:42 2018 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 16:19:42 -0800 Subject: Modcomp aquired In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B4B2@mail.bensene.com> >Soon to be picked up and brought home. Lots of documentation with it as >well. Christmas came early, eager to get it home and set up. What a beauty! In amazing condition. Modcomp have a place in my heart, as an earlier Modcomp was the front-end communications processor for Tektronix' Control Data Cyber 73. I was a systems manager (as it was called then) on the Cyber. The Modcomp was rock solid reliable. I don't ever recall having any kind of problem with the Modcomp. It just ran and ran. When the Cyber was to be shut down, all you had to do was halt the Modcomp, then when the Cyber was to be brought back up, two switch presses on the Modcomp (can't remember the first key, perhaps something like INIT), then START, and it was ready to go for when the Cyber came up. -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From gordon+cctalk at drogon.net Fri Nov 2 12:43:40 2018 From: gordon+cctalk at drogon.net (Gordon Henderson) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 17:43:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP8/a Initial Power Up In-Reply-To: <27c485c4ae4ef3a32a0756739e85c28b@cvmakerspace.ca> References: <27c485c4ae4ef3a32a0756739e85c28b@cvmakerspace.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, Columbia Valley Maker Space via cctalk wrote: > Hello everyone - my first post, so be easy on me! > > I have just acquired a PDP8/a and a Remex punch tape reader. The unit > starts up and displays some data on the displays, and that is about all > I can tell you. > > I am going to do some googling about this, but I am looking for basic > initial tests .... something I can enter via the keypad. > > I learnt some basic programming in 1978 on a PDP8, but that was the last > time I touched one, so if you are going to suggest some tests, I need > complete instructions. I don't know how to modify a memory location, let > alone enter and check a program. I will pick all this back up very > quickly and I do use computers in my work a lot - I am also an > electronic hobby guy and have been for years. My point is I am OK with > component level measurements, I have a scope and probes, etc. > > So there you go - hope to hear back form you guys. So: power on. Power key up, boot & panel-lock down. Display memory: MD DISP You should see the MD LED light up. Enter an address: 0200 then LA then E-THIS That will give you the value of location 0200. Enter a number - e.g. 1234 then D-Next will enter that number into the displayed address and advance the program counter by one. Simple program: 2 0100 *100 3 00100 0000 COUNTER, 0 4 5 0200 *0200 6 00200 7300 CLA CLL 7 00201 3100 dca COUNTER 8 9 DELAY, 10 00202 2100 ISZ COUNTER 11 00203 5202 JMP DELAY 12 13 00204 7001 iac 14 00205 5202 JMP DELAY Numbers in the 3rd column are the ones you enter in. So MD DISP, then: 0000 LXA 0200 LA 7300 D-Next 3100 D-Next 2100 D-Next 5202 D-Next 7001 D-Next 5202 D-Next Check with 0200 LA D-This (Should see 7300), then D-Next, etc. Start: 0000 LXA 0200 LA INIT RUN then display the accumulator (AC DISP) and you should see it counting in octal It was probably controlling a CNC machine until recently - that combination was very popular and what mine was used for until it was decomissioned only a few years back. There are still some in-use today! Mine: https://lion.drogon.net/IMG_20180128_095121.jpg I don't have the tape drive, and I did a one-wire mod to the IO board to allow for TTL level serial out so I could connect it to a TTL serial USB adapter on a Pi. Always check the display mode - make sure in MD mode when changing or looking at memory. Have fun, and good luck! Gordon From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 13:08:57 2018 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 14:08:57 -0400 Subject: PDP8/a Initial Power Up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2018 08:56:08 -0700 > From: Columbia Valley Maker Space > Subject: PDP8/a Initial Power Up > > Hello everyone - my first post, so be easy on me! > > I have just acquired a PDP8/a and a Remex punch tape reader. The unit > starts up and displays some data on the displays, and that is about all > I can tell you. > > I am going to do some googling about this, but I am looking for basic > initial tests .... something I can enter via the keypad. > > I learnt some basic programming in 1978 on a PDP8, but that was the last > time I touched one, so if you are going to suggest some tests, I need > complete instructions. I don't know how to modify a memory location, let > alone enter and check a program. I will pick all this back up very > quickly and I do use computers in my work a lot - I am also an > electronic hobby guy and have been for years. My point is I am OK with > component level measurements, I have a scope and probes, etc. > > So there you go - hope to hear back form you guys. > > Cheers, > > Brian > > -- > Brian McIntosh > Columbia Valley Maker Space Communications Guy > info at cvmakerspace.ca > 250 270 0689 > Try the toggle-in tests that are here: https://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/tifftopdf.pl/pdp8docs/toggle_in_programs.pdf -- Michael Thompson From anders at abc80.net Fri Nov 2 13:22:08 2018 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 19:22:08 +0100 Subject: PDP8/a Initial Power Up (Columbia Valley Maker Space) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Most of the documentation is found here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8a/ For some basic testing look here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8a/EK-8A001-OP-002_PDP-8A_Operators_Handbook_Sep76.pdf in chapter 5.1 (pdf page number 48). To do basic memory read and write: Press MD and DISP (memory data register will be displayed on the four digits) Then press 0200 and LA (load address) Press 5050 and D-THIS (deposit to memory on this adress, no increment). Press E-THIS (examine on this memory address, no increment) and you should get the same result back. Another good place to be is to post in the DEC category on the VCFED forum: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?23-DEC Good luck! /Anders > Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2018 08:56:08 -0700 > From: Columbia Valley Maker Space > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP8/a Initial Power Up > Message-ID: <27c485c4ae4ef3a32a0756739e85c28b at cvmakerspace.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Hello everyone - my first post, so be easy on me! > > I have just acquired a PDP8/a and a Remex punch tape reader. The unit > starts up and displays some data on the displays, and that is about all > I can tell you. > > I am going to do some googling about this, but I am looking for basic > initial tests .... something I can enter via the keypad. > > I learnt some basic programming in 1978 on a PDP8, but that was the last > time I touched one, so if you are going to suggest some tests, I need > complete instructions. I don't know how to modify a memory location, let > alone enter and check a program. I will pick all this back up very > quickly and I do use computers in my work a lot - I am also an > electronic hobby guy and have been for years. My point is I am OK with > component level measurements, I have a scope and probes, etc. > > So there you go - hope to hear back form you guys. > > Cheers, > > Brian > > -- > Brian McIntosh > Columbia Valley Maker Space Communications Guy > info at cvmakerspace.ca > 250 270 0689 From cramcram at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 15:53:59 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 13:53:59 -0700 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I designed the video section of that board set (VX/MVX). The VX had an i860 + a very large 32 bit frame buffer. It also had and 2nd 8 bit frame buffer based two custom Sun chips that was used for the window system. The video could switch between the two frame buffers on a per-pixel basis. The output format of the larger frame buffer was micro-programmable; some VXs were used by Sarnoff Labs in early development of the HDTV standard. The MVX had four i860s and a very wide (256 bits?) high speed connection to the VX. Oh, and the guys that developed the chip set for 2D graphics? They left and founded a little company called Nvidia. Sigh. Marc On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 5:34 AM Michael Thompson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 14:29:18 -0700 > > From: Eric Korpela > > Subject: Re: i860: Re: modern stuff > > > > A Google search on Skybolt i860 produces interesting results. > > >Additional realtime signal processing > > > capability is provided by four Skybolt i860-based VMEbus single-board > > > computers with 240 MFLOPS peak combined capacity. > > > -------------- > > > Remember when 240 MFLOPS was a lot? > > > > That's the board that I have. > > Quad i860 on a 9Ux400 VME board. > > Its in a Sun 4/280 development system. > > > -- > Michael Thompson > From rshepprd at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 20:18:07 2018 From: rshepprd at gmail.com (Richard Sheppard) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 21:18:07 -0500 Subject: PDP8/a Initial Power Up Message-ID: <5be0f9e2.1c69fb81.1b212.fc5c@mx.google.com> Welcome ? and watch out where you stick those probes: EEVBlog - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaELqAo4kkQ Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 20:24:29 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 21:24:29 -0500 Subject: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 In-Reply-To: <00db01d4743f$cdf7ae70$69e70b50$@ntlworld.com> References: <00d401d4743b$1f0830f0$5d1892d0$@ntlworld.com> <00db01d4743f$cdf7ae70$69e70b50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <78a3214b-a074-ba69-de00-6826cc9d4a1a@gmail.com> On 11/04/2018 08:10 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctech wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com] >> Sent: 04 November 2018 12:42 >> To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Jarratt RMA ; General >> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 >> >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 12:37 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk >> wrote: >>> I have posted previously about a DEC Pro 350 I am trying to get >>> working again. At the moment it seems to be constantly resetting the CPU. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have traced one possible path for the cause of this back to a NEC >>> chip for which I cannot find a datasheet. It is a 40-pin DIP it is >>> marked "NEC Japan >>> 8239K6 D7201C". All I have been able to find is more modern USB host >>> controllers. >> Almost certainly a uPD7201 multi-protocol (asynchronous and synchronous) >> serial chip. I have an NEC data book with it in if all else fails but a google >> search for 'uPD7201 datasheet' (no quotes) found sites with the data sheet >> to download as a .pdf file. >> >> Quite why that should reset the machine is beyond me.... > I have been trying to find what is driving this path in the logic and this chip was the only one I for which I couldn't identify the pins, but it seems that from this datasheet (https://datasheet4u.com/datasheet-pdf-file/1098405/NEC/UPD7201/1) they are all inputs and not outputs. So I need to look again for an output pin that is driving this signal. > > Thanks > > Rob > Rob, you need to have the drawing for the PRO-350, and read it.? Reset on the F11 chipset is generally part of Pwr-OK? and if reset is bouncing likely power is NOT ok.? FYI the 7201 is MPSC a dual multiprotocol serial chip not unlike the Z80-SIO.? Likely the system wide reset is coming from the power OK generation as you seeing hardware reset into the MPSC. Hint: the pro350 is basically an 11/23 in a different form factor. Allison From pietstan15 at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 21:43:01 2018 From: pietstan15 at gmail.com (stan) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 22:43:01 -0500 Subject: DEC Hard drives Message-ID: <9121a841-b83f-3ca3-61c1-44b0b6f6fb01@gmail.com> I have a Digital RZ56 drive and a couple of Micropolis 1588 drives. Is there any demand for these brick sized drives of cd-rom capacity, or should I just recycle them? Stan From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Nov 5 22:50:40 2018 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 04:50:40 +0000 Subject: Modcomp aquired In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20181106045030.GA17290@lonesome.com> On Mon, Nov 05, 2018 at 05:48:22PM -0500, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > Soon to be picked up and brought home. Lots of documentation with it as > well. Christmas came early, eager to get it home and set up. Nice! mcl From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Nov 6 00:16:19 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 22:16:19 -0800 Subject: HP-Apollo 9000/425t RAM In-Reply-To: <630EB7CD-FCC3-456A-BE1C-DBC661B4E782@eschatologist.net> References: <630EB7CD-FCC3-456A-BE1C-DBC661B4E782@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: To follow up on this with what I?ve learned: As expected, lots of places online will say they have a thing on their web site, and then when you ask for a quote they won?t actually have it. However, ServerWorlds not only had HP 98229-66524 16MB memory modules listed, they also had a price and in-stock quantity listed! So I ordered a couple to try. https://www.serverworlds.com/hp-98229-66524-16mb-simm/ They have a whole lot fewer now, because it turns out that despite what it says in the HP-Apollo 9000/400 Series Owner?s Guide, the 425t *does* support 16MB modules! My system comes right up, all self tests pass and it says it has 32MB of memory with two modules. So I?ve ordered six more to get to 128MB. In the worst case, I figure it?ll only allow me to put half that in, and I can pass the memory along to someone else who buys a 9000/375, 380, or 400 series with no RAM. All that said I?m quite surprised MAME doesn?t include HP-Apollo 9000/400 series emulation. The hardware is very similar to the 9000/380, which is supported, and several Apollo DN series systems are also supported? Hopefully I can install Domain/OS on a virtual disk using MAME (using the same node ID) and just blast the raw bits to a SCSI disk to make something bootable. Anyone know whether that wouldn?t work? ? Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Nov 6 00:24:39 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 22:24:39 -0800 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The i860 seemed to be everywhere in high end graphics for a brief period of time; it seems like everyone whose graphics had been several ganged Weitek units and their own execution engine to feed them switched to one or more i860 chips at once. (Wasn?t RealityEngine also i860?) Did Intel offer some sort of incentive to do so? Was the chip really all that for its day, as the contemporary deep dive in BYTE seemed to make it out to be? Or was it just an attempt to hedge and use something developers hoped would become a commodity with successive backwards-compatible generations like Intel?s CPUs? ? Chris Sent from my iPad > On Nov 2, 2018, at 1:53 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > > I designed the video section of that board set (VX/MVX). The VX had an > i860 + a very large 32 bit frame buffer. It also had and 2nd 8 bit frame > buffer based two custom Sun chips that was used for the window system. The > video could switch between the two frame buffers on a per-pixel basis. The > output format of the larger frame buffer was micro-programmable; some VXs > were used by Sarnoff Labs in early development of the HDTV standard. > > The MVX had four i860s and a very wide (256 bits?) high speed connection to > the VX. > > Oh, and the guys that developed the chip set for 2D graphics? They left > and founded a little company called Nvidia. Sigh. > > Marc From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 6 01:00:53 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 07:00:53 +0000 Subject: DEC Hard drives In-Reply-To: <9121a841-b83f-3ca3-61c1-44b0b6f6fb01@gmail.com> References: <9121a841-b83f-3ca3-61c1-44b0b6f6fb01@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20181106070056.81DE64E696@mx2.ezwind.net> I am always interested in drives like this. I suspect others are too. Sent from my Windows 10 device From: stan via cctalk Sent: 06 November 2018 03:43 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: DEC Hard drives I have a Digital RZ56 drive and a couple of Micropolis 1588 drives. Is there any demand for these brick sized drives of cd-rom capacity, or should I just recycle them? Stan From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 01:51:09 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 07:51:09 -0000 Subject: DEC Hard drives In-Reply-To: <9121a841-b83f-3ca3-61c1-44b0b6f6fb01@gmail.com> References: <9121a841-b83f-3ca3-61c1-44b0b6f6fb01@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0f4e01d475a5$7babb050$730310f0$@gmail.com> Hi Stan Some one on the vintage computing forums was looking for a <1GB drive for an old DEC box. Certainly the VaxStation 3100 base model needs small disks like this. Yes the wonderful SCSI2SD will work but real drives are often wanted. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of stan via cctalk > Sent: 06 November 2018 03:43 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: DEC Hard drives > > I have a Digital RZ56 drive and a couple of Micropolis 1588 drives. > Is there any demand for these brick sized drives of cd-rom capacity, or should > I just recycle them? > > Stan From erik at baigar.de Tue Nov 6 03:22:35 2018 From: erik at baigar.de (erik at baigar.de) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 09:22:35 +0000 Subject: Rugged Nova Message-ID: <1541492555240.null> Hi Jeffrey, thanks for your answer and recollections on the famous hammer test ;-) > hangar. I was mesmerized as two weights were released from two chains > on opposite sides of the machine as it was running. The two weights There is a youtube video showing some of the testing... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oOgYklBklc ..but the hammer is not hitting the device under test directly, but it is hitting a big steel plate where the device is mounted to (indeed simulating a submarine in harsh "conditions")... > up the Liberty bell, or crashed a VW into a lightpole. The machine > continued to function! Yes, lot of metal inside those Rolms. Although all Aluminium, they are veeery heavy and I always wondered how many of them also have been used in airborne applications, where weight is an issue ;-) Best wishes, Erik. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 6 01:18:39 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 07:18:39 +0000 Subject: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 In-Reply-To: <78a3214b-a074-ba69-de00-6826cc9d4a1a@gmail.com> References: <00d401d4743b$1f0830f0$5d1892d0$@ntlworld.com> <00db01d4743f$cdf7ae70$69e70b50$@ntlworld.com> <78a3214b-a074-ba69-de00-6826cc9d4a1a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20181106071842.3AA784E6A4@mx2.ezwind.net> If you know where to find the printset for the 350 then please let me know. In the absence of a printset i have been reverse engineering the schematic to work out the cause of the resets, i am just having trouble tracing one possible path, and i am away all week so can't look again until the weekend. Thanks Rob Sent from my Windows 10 device From: allison via cctech Sent: 06 November 2018 02:24 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 On 11/04/2018 08:10 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctech wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com] >> Sent: 04 November 2018 12:42 >> To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Jarratt RMA ; General >> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Datasheet for a NEC Chip in DEC Professional 350 >> >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 12:37 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk >> wrote: >>> I have posted previously about a DEC Pro 350 I am trying to get >>> working again. At the moment it seems to be constantly resetting the CPU. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have traced one possible path for the cause of this back to a NEC >>> chip for which I cannot find a datasheet. It is a 40-pin DIP it is >>> marked "NEC Japan >>> 8239K6 D7201C". All I have been able to find is more modern USB host >>> controllers. >> Almost certainly a uPD7201 multi-protocol (asynchronous and synchronous) >> serial chip. I have an NEC data book with it in if all else fails but a google >> search for 'uPD7201 datasheet' (no quotes) found sites with the data sheet >> to download as a .pdf file. >> >> Quite why that should reset the machine is beyond me.... > I have been trying to find what is driving this path in the logic and this chip was the only one I for which I couldn't identify the pins, but it seems that from this datasheet (https://datasheet4u.com/datasheet-pdf-file/1098405/NEC/UPD7201/1) they are all inputs and not outputs. So I need to look again for an output pin that is driving this signal. > > Thanks > > Rob > Rob, you need to have the drawing for the PRO-350, and read it.? Reset on the F11 chipset is generally part of Pwr-OK? and if reset is bouncing likely power is NOT ok.? FYI the 7201 is MPSC a dual multiprotocol serial chip not unlike the Z80-SIO.? Likely the system wide reset is coming from the power OK generation as you seeing hardware reset into the MPSC. Hint: the pro350 is basically an 11/23 in a different form factor. Allison From rp at servium.ch Tue Nov 6 05:45:22 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 12:45:22 +0100 Subject: RS/6000 values In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looking at Ebay it seems old RS/6000 have become expensive... A Working 7012-390 is certainly rare, they were finicky beasts. I have a 7012-3AT (very similar to the 390) and it's failing diag in weird ways. I've seen a few 390/3AT/3BT/3CT and all of them had similar issues. If you just want a nice machine to run old AIX, try to find a 7011-250 or any of the 7012 series (especially the later ones like 360/370/380). If it doesn't have to be AIX 3.x, get a 7043-43P or 7046-B50. On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 5:35 AM Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi there! > > I don't usually see much discussion on old IBM boxes, but I was looking > for a reasonably-powerful RS/6000 that can run AIX 4.1 and maybe 3.2.5, can > accommodate some decent disks, and isn't 200lbs. The 7012-390 looks > perfect, but I found this one on eBay: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-7012-390-POWER2-512MB-Memory-1GB-SCSI-2-Disk-Drive-CD-Base-Features-RS6000/272362237797?epid=1604049867&hash=item3f6a0def65:g:aJQAAOSwHnFVmutE:rk:1:pf:1 > > > Are 7012-390's really worth $3,000? Anyone out there have one they'd > like to unload for less than 3 grand? :P > > > Thanks! > > > -Ben > > > > From rp at servium.ch Tue Nov 6 05:48:40 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 12:48:40 +0100 Subject: HP-Apollo 9000/425t RAM In-Reply-To: References: <630EB7CD-FCC3-456A-BE1C-DBC661B4E782@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 7:16 AM Chris Hanson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hopefully I can install Domain/OS on a virtual disk using MAME (using the > same node ID) and just blast the raw bits to a SCSI disk to make something > bootable. Anyone know whether that wouldn?t work? > No idea, but I want to know, so please report whether you were successful. Do you have a Domain keyboard? I was never able to find one. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Nov 6 10:24:52 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 08:24:52 -0800 Subject: HP-Apollo 9000/425t RAM In-Reply-To: References: <630EB7CD-FCC3-456A-BE1C-DBC661B4E782@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:48 AM, Rico Pajarola wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 7:16 AM Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: >> Hopefully I can install Domain/OS on a virtual disk using MAME (using the same node ID) and just blast the raw bits to a SCSI disk to make something bootable. Anyone know whether that wouldn?t work? > No idea, but I want to know, so please report whether you were successful. Will do! > Do you have a Domain keyboard? I was never able to find one. Yes, someone happened to have one on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/302169367965 An Apollo keyboard and mouse also shouldn?t be hard to emulate with something like an Arduino and a PS/2 keyboard and mouse; the combination speaks a sensible and documented TTL serial protocol, and the 7-pin DIN connector can be obtained easily. The biggest difficulty would be mapping a PS/2 keyboard reasonably to all the special Apollo keys. ? Chris From pietstan15 at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 11:34:22 2018 From: pietstan15 at gmail.com (stan) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 12:34:22 -0500 Subject: DEC Hard drives In-Reply-To: <9121a841-b83f-3ca3-61c1-44b0b6f6fb01@gmail.com> References: <9121a841-b83f-3ca3-61c1-44b0b6f6fb01@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e8a140b-16b0-04ee-f877-2e2e6ab4c7ba@gmail.com> Well, then. Time to put these drives in an enclosure to check them out..... On 2018-11-05 10:43 PM, stan wrote: > I have a Digital RZ56 drive and a couple of Micropolis 1588 drives. > Is there any demand for these brick sized drives of cd-rom capacity, or > should I just recycle them? > > Stan > From fsmith at ladylinux.com Tue Nov 6 12:11:50 2018 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Fran Smith) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 13:11:50 -0500 Subject: Large Collection Of Dec/Digital PDP Documentation Message-ID: <038fa80e-0da9-209f-10e8-910174541a4f@ladylinux.com> Hello, I have a complete set of Dec Orange Volumes for RT-11 and RSX11-M I am in the Baltimore Maryland Area. Bring a 12 pack of something nice to drink (Craft Beer Since I Am A Snob) and its all yours. Its a lot of documentation and its all in really decent shape. Just wanted to offer it before I start recycling it. No Shipping. Fran --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Nov 6 12:26:55 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 10:26:55 -0800 Subject: Large Collection Of Dec/Digital PDP Documentation In-Reply-To: <038fa80e-0da9-209f-10e8-910174541a4f@ladylinux.com> References: <038fa80e-0da9-209f-10e8-910174541a4f@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <9B2DD522-54C5-43B3-B0E0-90231DE7CE5E@avanthar.com> For those not in the know, orange binders for RT-11 should mean v5.x. An probably v4.x for RSX11M. Definitely a great pile of documentation for someone that is close enough! Zane Sent from my iPod > On Nov 6, 2018, at 10:11 AM, Fran Smith via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > > I have a complete set of Dec Orange Volumes for RT-11 and RSX11-M > > I am in the Baltimore Maryland Area. > > Bring a 12 pack of something nice to drink (Craft Beer Since I Am A Snob) and its all yours. Its a lot of documentation and its all in really decent shape. > > Just wanted to offer it before I start recycling it. > > No Shipping. > > Fran > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 6 12:57:21 2018 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 18:57:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Large Collection Of Dec/Digital PDP Documentation References: <171051635.1239632.1541530641019.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <171051635.1239632.1541530641019@mail.yahoo.com> On Tue, 11/6/18, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > For those not in the know, orange binders for RT-11 should mean v5.x.? An probably v4.x for > RSX11M.? Definitely a great pile of documentation for someone that is close enough! Isn't RT-11 V4 orange? I'll have to check when I get home, but I'm pretty sure that's the set I have. (That and a blue binder set for V3 and a loose set of V2.) BLS From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 13:34:23 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 14:34:23 -0500 Subject: Large Collection Of Dec/Digital PDP Documentation In-Reply-To: <171051635.1239632.1541530641019@mail.yahoo.com> References: <171051635.1239632.1541530641019.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <171051635.1239632.1541530641019@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Fran, If you want to bring them to system source this weekend I can take them and hold for someone else to have. We're having a workshop there on Sunday. Contact me through vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm Or maybe Sunday someone can pop over then from the workshop. Bill On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 1:57 PM Brian L. Stuart via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, 11/6/18, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > For those not in the know, orange binders for RT-11 should mean v5.x. > An probably v4.x for > > RSX11M. Definitely a great pile of documentation for someone that is > close enough! > > Isn't RT-11 V4 orange? I'll have to check when I get home, but > I'm pretty sure that's the set I have. (That and a blue binder set > for V3 and a loose set of V2.) > > BLS > From shadoooo at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 14:38:17 2018 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 21:38:17 +0100 Subject: DEC Hard drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, as other said, there's always demand for old disks, specially if working. The Micropolis are prone to death due to rubber of the head arm going to goo over time... but it can be repaired with some effort. I myself would take some of these disks for shipment, if you are in EU. Thanks Andrea From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Nov 6 15:45:24 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 13:45:24 -0800 Subject: Large Collection Of Dec/Digital PDP Documentation In-Reply-To: <171051635.1239632.1541530641019@mail.yahoo.com> References: <171051635.1239632.1541530641019.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <171051635.1239632.1541530641019@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sent from my iPod > On Nov 6, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > >> On Tue, 11/6/18, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> For those not in the know, orange binders for RT-11 should mean v5.x. An probably v4.x for >> RSX11M. Definitely a great pile of documentation for someone that is close enough! > > Isn't RT-11 V4 orange? I'll have to check when I get home, but > I'm pretty sure that's the set I have. (That and a blue binder set > for V3 and a loose set of V2.) > > BLS You might be right, my v3 & v4 sets went up to Paul Allen?s museum, I kept the v5.x set. V3 was definitely dark blue. Zane From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 6 15:54:19 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 15:54:19 -0600 Subject: Large Collection Of Dec/Digital PDP Documentation In-Reply-To: References: <171051635.1239632.1541530641019.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <171051635.1239632.1541530641019@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20181106215736.BC2E7273C3@mx1.ezwind.net> Haven't these DEC manual wall sets been scanned more than once, and are available as PDFs? - John From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 16:21:37 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 17:21:37 -0500 Subject: Large Collection Of Dec/Digital PDP Documentation In-Reply-To: <20181106215736.BC2E7273C3@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <171051635.1239632.1541530641019.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <171051635.1239632.1541530641019@mail.yahoo.com> <20181106215736.BC2E7273C3@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Yes, but it's nice to have them on the shelf too, much easier to reference if you use them occasionally :-) On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 4:57 PM John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > Haven't these DEC manual wall sets been scanned more than once, and > are available as PDFs? > > - John > > From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 16:29:52 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 17:29:52 -0500 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes Message-ID: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> Since RS6K systems have been mentioned recently, I thought I should ask for advice.? I have a Powerserver 320H with 32MB of RAM, an 8-port async EIA-232 adapter, a SCSI adapter and a 400MB HD.?? No framebuffer or keyboard; no LAN card.? Because of the last issue, I haven't tried to do much with it.? I tried getting it to talk on the serial console (Serial 1 connector in the back), following all the advice I found on the net:? The pinout of the MODU serial connector, the null modem cable with full handshake (also driving the DCD line in the 320H).? I turn it on in service mode, and it spits a lot of LED codes, finds the HD, spins it up and it apparently loads something (I suppose AIX) from it.? But nothing is? ever sent out on the serial 1 port, or any other serial port.? I believe that during the POST it fails to initialize the serial 1 and 2 ports, because the 320H's DTR and RTS lines are never asserted (the ports in the async RS232 card do assert these on power up, but they are equally silent). I made sure that the CTS, DSR and DCD inputs of the 320H are being driven by the external terminal. I made a video of the LED codes during POST and found some problems; here are the codes and their meaning: 120 BIST starting a CRC check on the 8752 EPROM. 122 BIST started a CRC check on the first 32K bytes of the OCS EPROM. 124 BIST started a CRC check on the OCS area of NVRAM. 130 BIST presence test started. 101 BIST started following reset. 153 BIST started ACLST test code. 154 BIST started AST test code. 100 BIST completed successfully; control was passed to IPL ROS. 211 IPL ROM CRC comparison error (irrecoverable). !!!!!!! 214 Power status register failed (irrecoverable).?????????? !!!!!!! 218 RAM POST is looking for good memory. 219 RAM POST bit map is being generated. 290 IOCC POST error (irrecoverable).???????????????????????? !!!!!!! 291 Standard I/O POST running. 252 Attempting a Service mode IPL from 7012 DBA disk-attached ???????? devices specified in IPL ROM Default Device List. 253 Attempting a Service mode IPL from SCSI-attached devices ???????? specified in the IPL ROM Default Device List. 299 IPL ROM passed control to the loaded program code. 814 NVRAM being identified or configured. 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration ???????? method. 813 Battery for time-of-day, NVRAM, and so on being identified or ???????? configured, or system I/O control logic being identified or ???????? configured. 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration ???????? method. 520 Bus configuration running. 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration ???????? method. 869 SCSI adapter being identified or configured. 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration ???????? method. 954 400MB SCSI disk drive being identified or configured. 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration ???????? method. 539 The configuration method has terminated, and control has ???????? returned to the configuration manager. 551 IPL varyon is running. 553 IPL phase 1 is complete. The code 290 above is particularly worrysome, I think.? The NVRAM battery reads 2.85 volts even after all these years. I reseated all of the chips that are on bases, all of the cards, and connectors; there was no change.? Any ideas on how to proceed? carlos. From pat at vax11.net Tue Nov 6 16:53:19 2018 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 17:53:19 -0500 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 6, 2018, 17:30 Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > The code 290 above is particularly worrysome, I think. The NVRAM > battery reads 2.85 volts even after all these years. I reseated all of > the chips that are on bases, all of the cards, and connectors; there was > no change. Any ideas on how to proceed? > > carlos. > I wouldn't worry about any of the bad-sounding codes. How long have you waited? A model 320 is REALLY slow for an RS/6000, and you should get more codes as AIX boots up, and it should eventually clear the display once it's finished booting. Codes are only errors if the system doesn't advance past the code after more than several minutes. Also, the system won't send anything to the console port until well into the boot process, so no output doesn't mean that the serial port is dead. That's what the LED display is for. :) If you've waited at least 10-15 minutes after the last code it displayed, it sounds like you may need to reinstall, or maybe you have a failing or missing hard drive. I'd suggest finding a SCSI CDROM drive for it and get a copy of AIX install media. Note that you *need* install media or another system to rescue a machine with a lost root password, so I'd recommend that anyway. Earlier machines like the 320H would have originally done this off of 8mm tape, but I wouldn't recommend trying that since CD-ROMs are way easier. 10Mb Ethernet cards, compatible CD-ROM drives, and a copy of the media shouldn't be too hard to find. I'm sure someone here or over on the Sunhelp rescue list will be able to help you. If you're in the US, I know a few people here could source you parts. Pat > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 17:17:56 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 19:17:56 -0400 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> Message-ID: Those code you highlighted are only a problem if it halts on that code if it continues on then its ok, in fact it is finding something to boot off of 299 means that it has loaded the bootable code from somewhere, in your case likely the disk and has transferred control to it.? Do you know if this machine ever had a graphics card of some kind installed?? if so then it would likely have been defined as the console, if not then it may be a matter of finding out which serial ports where set up as TTYs.? If the disk does in fact have AIX installed on it you will only see activity on ports that have a getty running on them.? Do you have anything like diagnostic diskette or original install? media you could boot from?? Either one of those would check all the serial ports for a terminal.? The RS/6000 is very picky about the serial connections and does want to see certain signals present before it will talk to a serial port. ? Search for the manual "Adapters Devices and Cabling Information for Microchannel Systems" near the back there is a section about cabling? pay attention to the device called printer/terminal interposer there is a wiring diagram, it is effectively a null modem.? ? Another potentially useful manual is "Diagnostic Information for Microchannel Systems"? There are equivalent manuals for the early PCI systems as well substitute "Multibus" for Microchannel" Paul. On 2018-11-06 6:29 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > Since RS6K systems have been mentioned recently, I thought I should > ask for advice.? I have a Powerserver 320H with 32MB of RAM, an 8-port > async EIA-232 adapter, a SCSI adapter and a 400MB HD.?? No framebuffer > or keyboard; no LAN card.? Because of the last issue, I haven't tried > to do much with it.? I tried getting it to talk on the serial console > (Serial 1 connector in the back), following all the advice I found on > the net:? The pinout of the MODU serial connector, the null modem > cable with full handshake (also driving the DCD line in the 320H).? I > turn it on in service mode, and it spits a lot of LED codes, finds the > HD, spins it up and it apparently loads something (I suppose AIX) from > it.? But nothing is? ever sent out on the serial 1 port, or any other > serial port. I believe that during the POST it fails to initialize the > serial 1 and 2 ports, because the 320H's DTR and RTS lines are never > asserted (the ports in the async RS232 card do assert these on power > up, but they are equally silent). I made sure that the CTS, DSR and > DCD inputs of the 320H are being driven by the external terminal. > > I made a video of the LED codes during POST and found some problems; > here are the codes and their meaning: > > 120 BIST starting a CRC check on the 8752 EPROM. > 122 BIST started a CRC check on the first 32K bytes of the OCS EPROM. > 124 BIST started a CRC check on the OCS area of NVRAM. > 130 BIST presence test started. > 101 BIST started following reset. > 153 BIST started ACLST test code. > 154 BIST started AST test code. > 100 BIST completed successfully; control was passed to IPL ROS. > 211 IPL ROM CRC comparison error (irrecoverable). !!!!!!! > 214 Power status register failed (irrecoverable). !!!!!!! > 218 RAM POST is looking for good memory. > 219 RAM POST bit map is being generated. > 290 IOCC POST error (irrecoverable). !!!!!!! > 291 Standard I/O POST running. > 252 Attempting a Service mode IPL from 7012 DBA disk-attached > ???????? devices specified in IPL ROM Default Device List. > 253 Attempting a Service mode IPL from SCSI-attached devices > ???????? specified in the IPL ROM Default Device List. > 299 IPL ROM passed control to the loaded program code. > > 814 NVRAM being identified or configured. > > 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration > ???????? method. > 813 Battery for time-of-day, NVRAM, and so on being identified or > ???????? configured, or system I/O control logic being identified or > ???????? configured. > 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration > ???????? method. > 520 Bus configuration running. > 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration > ???????? method. > 869 SCSI adapter being identified or configured. > 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration > ???????? method. > 954 400MB SCSI disk drive being identified or configured. > 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration > ???????? method. > 539 The configuration method has terminated, and control has > ???????? returned to the configuration manager. > 551 IPL varyon is running. > 553 IPL phase 1 is complete. > > The code 290 above is particularly worrysome, I think.? The NVRAM > battery reads 2.85 volts even after all these years. I reseated all of > the chips that are on bases, all of the cards, and connectors; there > was no change.? Any ideas on how to proceed? > > carlos. > From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 18:39:51 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 19:39:51 -0500 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7b01b344-d5ad-f8b9-38aa-1c7dc09ef6c7@gmail.com> Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > Those code you highlighted are only a problem if it halts on that code > if it continues on then its ok, in fact it is finding something to > boot off of 299 means that it has loaded the bootable code from > somewhere, in your case likely the disk and has transferred control to > it.? Do you know if this machine ever had a graphics card of some kind > installed?? if so then it would likely have been defined as the > console, if not then it may be a matter of finding out which serial > ports where set up as TTYs.? If the disk does in fact have AIX > installed on it you will only see activity on ports that have a getty > running on them.? Do you have anything like diagnostic diskette or > original install? media you could boot from?? Either one of those > would check all the serial ports for a terminal.? The RS/6000 is very > picky about the serial connections and does want to see certain > signals present before it will talk to a serial port. ? Search for the > manual "Adapters Devices and Cabling Information for Microchannel > Systems" near the back there is a section about cabling? pay attention > to the device called printer/terminal interposer there is a wiring > diagram, it is effectively a null modem.? ? Another potentially useful > manual is "Diagnostic Information for Microchannel Systems"? There are > equivalent manuals for the early PCI systems as well substitute > "Multibus" for Microchannel" Since it does not stop after the "290 IOCC POST error (irrecoverable)." code, then perhaps there's hope.? I made diagnostic diskettes from images that I found on the net, and the system reads the diskette on power up, but after a while it goes back to reading the HD instead.? When it reads the diskette it does not sound like it fails to seek or read, but it is possible that the diskette was not written correctly.? As for the null modem cable, I actually tried several schemes in an RS-232 break-out box, but none worked.? Just silence, and most important, no assertion of the DTR or RTS lines on the part of the 320H, even when CTS, DCD and DSR are being asserted from my terminal. I am pretty sure that this machine was always headless;? it was used for accounting and inventory in a small business and all it had was terminals, a printer, and the tape drive. If it seems like it can be revived, perhaps I will invest in a LAN card for it. My only experience with AIX was as a user in a big SP system at Cornell in the 90's; I loved? it, but it was only from a user's perspective, not an admin. Carlos. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Nov 6 18:42:40 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 17:42:40 -0700 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: <7b01b344-d5ad-f8b9-38aa-1c7dc09ef6c7@gmail.com> References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> <7b01b344-d5ad-f8b9-38aa-1c7dc09ef6c7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/06/2018 05:39 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > As for the null modem cable, I actually tried several schemes in an > RS-232 break-out box, but none worked. Are you connecting a computer to act as a client? Or are you actually connecting a (dumb) terminal? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Nov 6 18:31:31 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 00:31:31 +0000 Subject: Large Collection Of Dec/Digital PDP Documentation In-Reply-To: References: <171051635.1239632.1541530641019.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <171051635.1239632.1541530641019@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8d1ab8fc-581f-ab67-9f89-65540140cf9d@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/11/2018 21:45, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Nov 6, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: >> >> Isn't RT-11 V4 orange? I'll have to check when I get home, but >> I'm pretty sure that's the set I have. (That and a blue binder set >> for V3 and a loose set of V2.) > You might be right, my v3 & v4 sets went up to Paul Allen?s museum, I kept the v5.x set. > > V3 was definitely dark blue. Interesting. My sets of RT-11 V4.0 are all dark blue. The only V3 I've seen is light blue. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 19:10:51 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 20:10:51 -0500 Subject: Large Collection Of Dec/Digital PDP Documentation In-Reply-To: <8d1ab8fc-581f-ab67-9f89-65540140cf9d@dunnington.plus.com> References: <171051635.1239632.1541530641019.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <171051635.1239632.1541530641019@mail.yahoo.com> <8d1ab8fc-581f-ab67-9f89-65540140cf9d@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: My orange manual set is for VMS 4.4 On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 7:43 PM Pete Turnbull via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 06/11/2018 21:45, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > On Nov 6, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Brian L. Stuart > wrote: > >> > > >> Isn't RT-11 V4 orange? I'll have to check when I get home, but > >> I'm pretty sure that's the set I have. (That and a blue binder set > >> for V3 and a loose set of V2.) > > > You might be right, my v3 & v4 sets went up to Paul Allen?s museum, I > kept the v5.x set. > > > > V3 was definitely dark blue. > > Interesting. My sets of RT-11 V4.0 are all dark blue. The only V3 I've > seen is light blue. > > -- > Pete > Pete Turnbull > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 19:24:13 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 21:24:13 -0400 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: <7b01b344-d5ad-f8b9-38aa-1c7dc09ef6c7@gmail.com> References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> <7b01b344-d5ad-f8b9-38aa-1c7dc09ef6c7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2018-11-06 8:39 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: >> are equivalent manuals for the early PCI systems as well substitute >> "Multibus" for Microchannel" > Since it does not stop after the "290 IOCC POST error > (irrecoverable)." code, then perhaps there's hope.? I made diagnostic > diskettes from images that I found on the net, and the system reads > the diskette on power up, but after a while it goes back to reading > the HD instead.? When it reads the diskette it does not sound like it > fails to seek or read, but it is possible that the diskette was not > written correctly.? As for the null modem cable, I actually tried > several schemes in an RS-232 break-out box, but none worked.? Just > silence, and most important, no assertion of the DTR or RTS lines on > the part of the 320H, even when CTS, DCD and DSR are being asserted > from my terminal. > > I am pretty sure that this machine was always headless;? it was used > for accounting and inventory in a small business and all it had was > terminals, a printer, and the tape drive. > > If it seems like it can be revived, perhaps I will invest in a LAN > card for it. > > My only experience with AIX was as a user in a big SP system at > Cornell in the 90's; I loved? it, but it was only from a user's > perspective, not an admin. > > Carlos. For loading the diagnostic from diskettes diskettes see the section "running diagnostic program from diskette" in the previously mentioned "Diagnostic Information for Microchannel Systems"? the key switch has to be in the service (wrench) position insert the appropriate boot diskette there are two? 8MB of memory and >16MB of memory turn on power and after the self test it should start reading the diskette and when it finishes it will display C01 to prompt for the next diskette if that does not happen either the image is bad or there is a problem with the diskette drive.? There is a reasonable good chance that there is an issue with the diskette drive, especially if it was sitting on a carpeted floor.? Typically the diskette drive was rarely used and the fans in the system will draw air in through the diskette drive carrying all kinds of contamination with it, you may want to open the drive up and clean it out and clean the heads.? It is very likely that the diskette drive in the machine has the power lines in the ribbon cable instead of a separate power connector making replacements hard to find. As for the serial there is only one scenario that works fully pined cables with a null modem that matches the wiring of ? the printer terminal interposer. I don't think that an ethernet card is going to be a big help if you want to use the AIX that is on the disk as you have no way of configuring the ethernet network unless you can get a terminal working.? Another roadblock may be the root password, it is possible to break in when you have physical access to the machine however you still need a terminal and you also need original install media at the same level of AIX or a mksysb backup tape from the same level of AIX to boot into maintenance mode.? The original install media for a machine of this vintage would have been a tape or lots and lots of diskettes. Getting diagnostics to work would be a really good start. The AIX on the SP2 would have been the same, in fact the hardware on the SP2 nodes was similar to the regular RS/6000 boxes except the console was through a special serial network in the frame and accessed through the control workstation.? Most regular users likely accessed the nodes through a LAN. Paul. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 19:53:14 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 20:53:14 -0500 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> <7b01b344-d5ad-f8b9-38aa-1c7dc09ef6c7@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Getting diagnostics to work would be a really good start. I may have install media and diagnostic disks for the 320H kicking around. > The AIX on the SP2 would have been the same, in fact the hardware on the > SP2 nodes was similar to the regular RS/6000 boxes except the console > was through a special serial network in the frame and accessed through > the control workstation. Most regular users likely accessed the nodes > through a LAN. Someday I would like an SP or SP2 system. What was the internal network on the original SP machines? Did they use that weird forgotten optical port the first generation RS/6000s had? -- Will From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 20:58:20 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 21:58:20 -0500 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> <7b01b344-d5ad-f8b9-38aa-1c7dc09ef6c7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <505192ff-e7d2-d62f-8324-f0ef0200db2a@gmail.com> Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 11/06/2018 05:39 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: >> As for the null modem cable, I actually tried several schemes in an >> RS-232 break-out box, but none worked. > > Are you connecting a computer to act as a client?? Or are you actually > connecting a (dumb) terminal I am actually connecting a Macbook Pro with Serial.app (worth the $$$) and a USB-RS232 adapter; this has worked fine with many kinds of hardware.? The only real terminals that I have are a vt220 and two IBM 3151's that actually came with this system. carlos. From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 21:01:25 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 22:01:25 -0500 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> <7b01b344-d5ad-f8b9-38aa-1c7dc09ef6c7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <83603a2a-8e44-6f80-1fb6-119d6034dec3@gmail.com> Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 11/06/2018 05:39 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: >> As for the null modem cable, I actually tried several schemes in an >> RS-232 break-out box, but none worked. > > Are you connecting a computer to act as a client?? Or are you actually > connecting a (dumb) terminal I am actually using a Macbook Pro with Serial.app (worth the $$$) and an USB-RS232 adapter; this has worked fine with many kinds of hardware.? The only real terminals that I own are a VT220 and two IBM 3151's that actually came with this system; all of them are functional. carlos. From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 21:12:10 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 22:12:10 -0500 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> <7b01b344-d5ad-f8b9-38aa-1c7dc09ef6c7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <750d8eb6-5cd7-c666-a39f-39326d8b4e02@gmail.com> Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > For loading the diagnostic from diskettes diskettes see the section > "running diagnostic program from diskette" in the previously mentioned > "Diagnostic Information for Microchannel Systems"? the key switch has > to be in the service (wrench) position insert the appropriate boot > diskette there are two? 8MB of memory and >16MB of memory turn on > power and after the self test it should start reading the diskette and > when it finishes it will display C01 to prompt for the next diskette > if that does not happen either the image is bad or there is a problem > with the diskette drive.? There is a reasonable good chance that there > is an issue with the diskette drive, especially if it was sitting on a > carpeted floor.? Typically the diskette drive was rarely used and the > fans in the system will draw air in through the diskette drive > carrying all kinds of contamination with it, you may want to open the > drive up and clean it out and clean the heads.? It is very likely that > the diskette drive in the machine has the power lines in the ribbon > cable instead of a separate power connector making replacements hard > to find. > > As for the serial there is only one scenario that works fully pined > cables with a null modem that matches the wiring of ? the printer > terminal interposer. > > I don't think that an ethernet card is going to be a big help if you > want to use the AIX that is on the disk as you have no way of > configuring the ethernet network unless you can get a terminal > working.? Another roadblock may be the root password, it is possible > to break in when you have physical access to the machine however you > still need a terminal and you also need original install media at the > same level of AIX or a mksysb backup tape from the same level of AIX > to boot into maintenance mode.? The original install media for a > machine of this vintage would have been a tape or lots and lots of > diskettes. > > Getting diagnostics to work would be a really good start. > > The AIX on the SP2 would have been the same, in fact the hardware on > the SP2 nodes was similar to the regular RS/6000 boxes except the > console was through a special serial network in the frame and accessed > through the control workstation.? Most regular users likely accessed > the nodes through a LAN. > > Paul. > Thank you, I'll double check the null cable and clean the diskette drive.? The diagnostics disk's images that I found are simply labeled "AIX diagnostics" with four 1.44MB images named disk1-disk4; there is no mention of different versions according to RAM size. I suppose that if I wanted to reset the root password I could mount the HD on another system, bvi the raw disk, look for the "root:" string and edit the next few bytes...? but right now it seems like the AIX installation in that disk is hosed anyway. We did connect via LAN to Cornell's SP2.? I loved that everything just worked.? Later, Cornell retired that system and replaced it with an NT Velocity cluster.? The user experience was nowhere near as good. carlos. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 21:58:45 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 23:58:45 -0400 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: <505192ff-e7d2-d62f-8324-f0ef0200db2a@gmail.com> References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> <7b01b344-d5ad-f8b9-38aa-1c7dc09ef6c7@gmail.com> <505192ff-e7d2-d62f-8324-f0ef0200db2a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7ecb0f93-4b6e-ae4e-4204-d3f17e398ed1@gmail.com> On 2018-11-06 10:58 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/06/2018 05:39 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: >>> As for the null modem cable, I actually tried several schemes in an >>> RS-232 break-out box, but none worked. >> >> Are you connecting a computer to act as a client?? Or are you >> actually connecting a (dumb) terminal > I am actually connecting a Macbook Pro with Serial.app (worth the $$$) > and a USB-RS232 adapter; this has worked fine with many kinds of > hardware.? The only real terminals that I have are a vt220 and two IBM > 3151's that actually came with this system. > > carlos. You might try one of the 3151 they are known to work..... for diagnostics set comm parms to 9600,N,8,1 Paul. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 09:26:34 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 07:26:34 -0800 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 12:58 AM Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > > Earlier machines like the 320H would have originally done this off of 8mm > tape, but I wouldn't recommend trying that since CD-ROMs are way easier. > 10Mb Ethernet cards, compatible CD-ROM drives, and a copy of the media > shouldn't be too hard to find. I'm sure someone here or over on the > Sunhelp rescue list will be able to help you. If you're in the US, I know > a few people here could source you parts. > I had a couple of 7012-320 and 7012-320H a few years ago that I couldn't give away locally and ended up taking them to a recycler. While I had them I did get around to doing clean installs of AIX V3.2.5 from tape. Not 8mm, I used QIC DC6150 tapes. I probably still have that set of 5 or 6 V3.2.5 installation tapes around, but not the external tape drive I used at the time. From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 12:25:05 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 12:25:05 -0600 Subject: Apollo Keyboards Message-ID: <01dc01d476c7$34dc9db0$9e95d910$@com> Now that I know you guys want them, I have put out a few feelers. Hopefully some of my recycle guys will have some. Cindy Croxton --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 18:57:17 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:57:17 -0500 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> <7b01b344-d5ad-f8b9-38aa-1c7dc09ef6c7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8c3a4e45-d22a-9b5d-c5f5-fa9c99342c66@gmail.com> Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > The AIX on the SP2 would have been the same, in fact the hardware on > the SP2 nodes was similar to the regular RS/6000 boxes except the > console was through a special serial network in the frame and accessed > through the control workstation.? Most regular users likely accessed > the nodes through a LAN. > > Paul. So, if I were to hunt for installation media for AIX, which version would you recommend for a 320H with 32MB of memory, i.e., the latest that would run and not get too bogged down by that amount of memory?? I can switch to a larger SCSI disk if it need be, but hopefully not larger than 2GB. Carlos. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 20:08:09 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:08:09 -0400 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: <8c3a4e45-d22a-9b5d-c5f5-fa9c99342c66@gmail.com> References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> <7b01b344-d5ad-f8b9-38aa-1c7dc09ef6c7@gmail.com> <8c3a4e45-d22a-9b5d-c5f5-fa9c99342c66@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9a82d3b9-b393-fb90-326a-96a16d6753cf@gmail.com> On 2018-11-07 8:57 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: >> >> The AIX on the SP2 would have been the same, in fact the hardware on >> the SP2 nodes was similar to the regular RS/6000 boxes except the >> console was through a special serial network in the frame and >> accessed through the control workstation.? Most regular users likely >> accessed the nodes through a LAN. >> >> Paul. > So, if I were to hunt for installation media for AIX, which version > would you recommend for a 320H with 32MB of memory, i.e., the latest > that would run and not get too bogged down by that amount of memory?? > I can switch to a larger SCSI disk if it need be, but hopefully not > larger than 2GB. > > Carlos. > > I am no longer sure when support for microchannel was dropped from AIX, I have always been on the hardware side with limited involvement with software.?? Doing a quick look it would seem that it is likely that some level of version 5 was the last one.? Version 6.1 was 64 bit only and required a POWER4 or later processor. Paul. From pat at vax11.net Wed Nov 7 20:17:18 2018 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 21:17:18 -0500 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: <8c3a4e45-d22a-9b5d-c5f5-fa9c99342c66@gmail.com> References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> <7b01b344-d5ad-f8b9-38aa-1c7dc09ef6c7@gmail.com> <8c3a4e45-d22a-9b5d-c5f5-fa9c99342c66@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 7:57 PM Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > So, if I were to hunt for installation media for AIX, which version > would you recommend for a 320H with 32MB of memory, i.e., the latest > that would run and not get too bogged down by that amount of memory? I > can switch to a larger SCSI disk if it need be, but hopefully not larger > than 2GB. > > 5.1L should work on anything given enough RAM, though it might be a bit tight with only 32MB of RAM. 4.3.3 might work better with that amount of RAM. I know that 5.2 dropped support for Microchannel systems, so you'll need something before that. Pat From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 7 21:54:38 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:54:38 -0800 Subject: ISO IBM 3708 documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <675dc4af-8d82-fd0a-4eb5-b4a016a185c3@bitsavers.org> On 10/17/18 9:30 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Does anyone have copies of the planning (GA27-3609) or configuration (GA27-3726) > documents for the 3708 protocol converter? > Got around to dumping the firmware and taking pictures of the innards today. Amazingly, it has a 68000 in it All of the strings in the EPROMs are in EBCDIC http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3708 From coreyvcf at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 06:25:53 2018 From: coreyvcf at gmail.com (corey cohen) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 07:25:53 -0500 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? Message-ID: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> Can?t see it yet in the states, but I was wondering if anyone here saw it and what you though. I was involved with the show. Thanks, Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? Sent from my iPhone From engwalljonathanthereal at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 00:37:24 2018 From: engwalljonathanthereal at gmail.com (Jonathan Engwall) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 22:37:24 -0800 Subject: XMP Simulator Message-ID: I have been playing with a simulated Cray downloaded from modularcicuits.com... The Simpson's behavior is always odd. Reproducing anything at all is difficult.Would anyone have information about XMT , ampex, CONC or loading DK tapes? I have read one Cray manual already and half of a second. I contacted the creator of the simulator about simulating the chilled connection, I do not know if this is implemented. Any suggestions or ideas are welcome.I I am presently stuck at: MOS TEST COMPLETE IOP-0 HALF 104 IOP STOP IN MERNEL Jonathan Engwall From ed at groenenberg.net Wed Nov 7 00:50:19 2018 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 07:50:19 +0100 (CET) Subject: Large Collection Of Dec/Digital PDP Documentation In-Reply-To: <9B2DD522-54C5-43B3-B0E0-90231DE7CE5E@avanthar.com> References: <038fa80e-0da9-209f-10e8-910174541a4f@ladylinux.com> <9B2DD522-54C5-43B3-B0E0-90231DE7CE5E@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <61997.92.70.5.67.1541573419.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Tue, November 6, 2018 19:26, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > For those not in the know, orange binders for RT-11 should mean v5.x. An > probably v4.x for RSX11M. Definitely a great pile of documentation for > someone that is close enough! > Hmm as far as i remember, V5.x came in grey binder, my V5.5 RT-11 manual set has this color and came from a DEC re-seller (some were still shrink wrapped). RSX11M V4 is definitely orange. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Nov 7 20:55:07 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 21:55:07 -0500 Subject: VAX 9440 Message-ID: The VCF museum took delivery of a VAX 9440 today. It arrived in two 28-foot trailers. Here's our forklift driver beginning to unload the first truck: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E-Q5xrsYXyjrZEZh92xIBhlStvvNUcRV/view?usp=sharing Here's a teaser picture of the main cabinet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bEpSMzBEeOvuDnzPQ9Npc7iYmDhjZq8c/view?usp=sharing The full system is 30-40 feet long when it's all set up! It is in pristine condition and was in service at a defense contractor until a couple of months ago. Rumor has it that we arranged for another one to land in Dave McGuire's Large Scale Systems Museum collection, and a third to be with Bob Roswell's System Source collection. :) Perhaps they'll post updates too! From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 01:12:19 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 01:12:19 -0600 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> Message-ID: ???? On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 12:09 AM corey cohen via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Can?t see it yet in the states, but I was wondering if anyone here saw it > and what you though. I was involved with the show. > > Thanks, > Cheers, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? > Sent from my iPhone From rp at servium.ch Thu Nov 8 02:45:27 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:45:27 +0100 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: <8c3a4e45-d22a-9b5d-c5f5-fa9c99342c66@gmail.com> References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> <7b01b344-d5ad-f8b9-38aa-1c7dc09ef6c7@gmail.com> <8c3a4e45-d22a-9b5d-c5f5-fa9c99342c66@gmail.com> Message-ID: Technically, anything up to 5.1L should run on a 320H. 2GB of disk is plenty ;) With 32MB 5.1 is probably a bit of a stretch, but 4.2.1 or 4.3.3 should run fine, and it's easier to get modern-ish things to compile than on 3.x. PM me if you need help finding media. On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 1:57 AM Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > > > The AIX on the SP2 would have been the same, in fact the hardware on > > the SP2 nodes was similar to the regular RS/6000 boxes except the > > console was through a special serial network in the frame and accessed > > through the control workstation. Most regular users likely accessed > > the nodes through a LAN. > > > > Paul. > So, if I were to hunt for installation media for AIX, which version > would you recommend for a 320H with 32MB of memory, i.e., the latest > that would run and not get too bogged down by that amount of memory? I > can switch to a larger SCSI disk if it need be, but hopefully not larger > than 2GB. > > Carlos. > > > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 03:09:27 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 03:09:27 -0600 Subject: VAX 9440 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Evan, Beautiful catch! Congrats to everyone. Paul On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 12:09 AM Evan Koblentz via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The VCF museum took delivery of a VAX 9440 today. > > It arrived in two 28-foot trailers. Here's our forklift driver beginning > to unload the first truck: > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E-Q5xrsYXyjrZEZh92xIBhlStvvNUcRV/view?usp=sharing > > Here's a teaser picture of the main cabinet: > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bEpSMzBEeOvuDnzPQ9Npc7iYmDhjZq8c/view?usp=sharing > > The full system is 30-40 feet long when it's all set up! It is in > pristine condition and was in service at a defense contractor until a > couple of months ago. > > Rumor has it that we arranged for another one to land in Dave McGuire's > Large Scale Systems Museum collection, and a third to be with Bob > Roswell's System Source collection. :) Perhaps they'll post updates too! > From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 04:23:50 2018 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 05:23:50 -0500 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am sure this is not authorized in any way but here's a link to the first episode on Youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iroAInAMfYo On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 5:19 AM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > ???? > > > > On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 12:09 AM corey cohen via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Can?t see it yet in the states, but I was wondering if anyone here saw it > > and what you though. I was involved with the show. > > > > Thanks, > > Cheers, > > Corey > > > > corey cohen > > u??o? ???o? > > Sent from my iPhone > From alan at alanlee.org Thu Nov 8 09:18:48 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 10:18:48 -0500 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> And of course, Jason T. would be in the very first episode :) On 2018-11-08 05:23, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > I am sure this is not authorized in any way but here's a link to the > first > episode on Youtube. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iroAInAMfYo > > On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 5:19 AM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> ???? >> >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 12:09 AM corey cohen via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> > Can?t see it yet in the states, but I was wondering if anyone here saw it >> > and what you though. I was involved with the show. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Cheers, >> > Corey >> > >> > corey cohen >> > u??o? ???o? >> > Sent from my iPhone >> From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 09:19:55 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:19:55 -0600 Subject: NeXT Monitor Problem Message-ID: I've got a NeXTstation Turbo and a MegaPixel display; the computer boots fine, but seems to complain of a failing hard drive. The monitor works okay; slight burn in, but otherwise looks okay in terms of the phosphor. However, something seems to be wonky with the horizontal scan...the left edge is very wobbly. Pictures here: https://imgur.com/a/azWHVuB Before I open this up, does anyone have any suggestions on where to start? I didn't see a NeXT section on Bitsavers. I am aware of the dangers of CRTs and will be sure to discharge the anode; I've worked on a few MDA monitors before. Thanks! Kyle P.S. From the hard disk error message, would you agree it's failing? Would this indicate total failure is imminent? From cym224 at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 09:16:20 2018 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:16:20 -0500 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/06/18 07:25, corey cohen via cctalk wrote: > Can?t see it yet in the states, but I was wondering if anyone here saw it and > what you though. I was involved with the show. They seem to be available here: https://www.discovery.ca/Shows/Vintage-Tech-Hunters N. > Thanks, > Cheers, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? > Sent from my iPhone > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 8 09:53:05 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 13:53:05 -0200 Subject: NeXT Monitor Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55438f85-33b2-adfe-1278-baacad67e3dd@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-11-08 1:19 p.m., Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > I've got a NeXTstation Turbo and a MegaPixel display; the computer boots > fine, but seems to complain of a failing hard drive. > ... > P.S. From the hard disk error message, would you agree it's failing? Would > this indicate total failure is imminent? > I don't know how "imminent", but "inevitable" to be sure. Consider a SCSI2SD replacement? Perhaps a good moment to image the existing system. --Toby From ethan at 757.org Thu Nov 8 10:03:26 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 11:03:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> Message-ID: > On 2018-11-08 05:23, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: >> I am sure this is not authorized in any way but here's a link to the first >> episode on Youtube. >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iroAInAMfYo Going to watch this tonight! Excited! More TV shows to drive speculation on flipping old stuff versus producing new good stuff. But hey, at least it's a subject I like this time :-) After American Pickers mentioned some pinball playfield could be turned into a coffee table tons of normies with pinball machines thought their old crap machines were worth thousands because people turned them into expensive coffee tables. Uhm, no. Some of the gaming console stuff goes for crazy money right now. I've heard China makes "reproductions" of carts but I've never figured out how to buy them. I would. Many of my collector friends now would rather buy a flash cart and download ROMs versus dealing with the speculative pricing on old games. It will be interesting to see what happens to the collectibles markets when/if the housing bubble pops. -- : Ethan O'Toole From ethan at 757.org Thu Nov 8 10:08:05 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 11:08:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: NeXT Monitor Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The monitor works okay; slight burn in, but otherwise looks okay in terms > of the phosphor. However, something seems to be wonky with the horizontal > scan...the left edge is very wobbly. Replace all electrolytic caps with new Panasonic of Nichicon 105 degree caps from a source like Digikey, Mouser, Newark or AVNet. So... I've heard a lot of NeXT monitors get dim over time. There is a tool for rejuvinating CRTs. I wondere if it would work rejuvinating NeXT monitor to bring back brightness. > I am aware of the dangers of CRTs and will be sure to discharge the anode; > I've worked on a few MDA monitors before. Definitely. Some monitor chassis self discharge via a resistor, so if you short anode to ground and don't see anything that is why. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Nov 8 10:19:43 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:19:43 -0700 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> Message-ID: On 11/08/2018 09:03 AM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: > Many of my collector friends now would rather buy a flash cart and > download ROMs versus dealing with the speculative pricing on old games. I equate the reproductions to kit cars. If you are wanting something to play / drive without angsting about damage, then IMHO, reproductions & kits are a great way to go. Just don't pretend that they are the real thing. Know that they are a reproduction / kit and enjoy the experience. I've started seeing similar with old sound cards. I'm following someone on Twitter that's recreating vintage Sound Blaster cards. I've seen others that I can't remember the make / model of. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From turing at shaw.ca Thu Nov 8 10:20:40 2018 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:20:40 -0700 (MST) Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <853238561.366927133.1541694040589.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Having watched two episodes, I find that their estimates of profit on the items are not unreasonable - they tend to go with 'doubling our cost'... no insane, 'Oooh, that's worth megabucks'. Not being a big toy aficionado, I'm not sure about the demand for some of the items, but there's a lot of oddball stuff that they present, which makes it more interesting than the typical "someone's trash is someone else's treasure" show. From: "cctalk" To: alan at alanlee.org, "cctalk" Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 8:03:26 AM Subject: Re: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? > On 2018-11-08 05:23, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: >> I am sure this is not authorized in any way but here's a link to the first >> episode on Youtube. >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iroAInAMfYo Going to watch this tonight! Excited! More TV shows to drive speculation on flipping old stuff versus producing new good stuff. But hey, at least it's a subject I like this time :-) After American Pickers mentioned some pinball playfield could be turned into a coffee table tons of normies with pinball machines thought their old crap machines were worth thousands because people turned them into expensive coffee tables. Uhm, no. Some of the gaming console stuff goes for crazy money right now. I've heard China makes "reproductions" of carts but I've never figured out how to buy them. I would. Many of my collector friends now would rather buy a flash cart and download ROMs versus dealing with the speculative pricing on old games. It will be interesting to see what happens to the collectibles markets when/if the housing bubble pops. -- : Ethan O'Toole From sales at elecplus.com Thu Nov 8 10:30:18 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:30:18 -0600 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <018701d47780$5650c480$02f24d80$@com> I've started seeing similar with old sound cards. I'm following someone on Twitter that's recreating vintage Sound Blaster cards. I've seen others that I can't remember the make / model of. -- Grant. . . . unix || die Seriously? Vintage Sound Blaster cards are still so easy to come by! I pass them up all the time because they never sold well. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ethan at 757.org Thu Nov 8 10:36:20 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 11:36:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> Message-ID: > I equate the reproductions to kit cars. If you are wanting something to play > / drive without angsting about damage, then IMHO, reproductions & kits are a > great way to go. Just don't pretend that they are the real thing. Know that > they are a reproduction / kit and enjoy the experience. Indeed! Also, my friends often take their stuff to events where it's all put out for the public to play at large. When the values get too high on things, then they tend to get locked behind glass with the price guide nearby and aren't as easily enjoyed. > I've started seeing similar with old sound cards. I'm following someone on > Twitter that's recreating vintage Sound Blaster cards. I've seen others that > I can't remember the make / model of. I think someone just did an Adlib remake. I am lucky that I still have two Soundblaster 1.0s and a Gravis Ultrasound 1 and Pro or something. It's neat to me that there is interest in it because that is how I grew up on DOS PCs, but a bit surprising. A lot of it is driven by youtube stars like LGR (who is awesome) who build hype. :-) But there are a lot of clones that should be out there feature compatible and sound identical. I gave my Adlib to friends for a Tandy system that gets put out at events for people to play on. Mainly the Chesapeake VA Freeplay event at the library and the museum room at MAGFest in MD (near DC.) The CM5/CM11 monitor exploded though, which sucks. Flyback died no reproductions yet. I have to admit, I looked at some of those IIGS sound card reproductions :-) -- : Ethan O'Toole From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 8 10:52:39 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:52:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: <018701d47780$5650c480$02f24d80$@com> References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <018701d47780$5650c480$02f24d80$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2018, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > Seriously? Vintage Sound Blaster cards are still so easy to come by! I pass them up all the time because they never sold well. > Take a peek on eBay sometime. ISA Soundblaster cards go for stupid coin. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Nov 8 10:52:51 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:52:51 -0800 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: <018701d47780$5650c480$02f24d80$@com> References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <018701d47780$5650c480$02f24d80$@com> Message-ID: <1890D0A7-C040-4D54-8A94-201AAED2F086@avanthar.com> > On Nov 8, 2018, at 8:30 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > > > I've started seeing similar with old sound cards. I'm following someone > on Twitter that's recreating vintage Sound Blaster cards. I've seen > others that I can't remember the make / model of. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > > Seriously? Vintage Sound Blaster cards are still so easy to come by! I pass them up all the time because they never sold well. > > Cindy That was my thought. Though I?m wondering if this is recreating them to run on a modern computer. That would sort of make sense. Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Nov 8 10:57:52 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:57:52 -0800 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <018701d47780$5650c480$02f24d80$@com> Message-ID: > On Nov 8, 2018, at 8:52 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Nov 2018, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > >> >> Seriously? Vintage Sound Blaster cards are still so easy to come by! I pass them up all the time because they never sold well. >> > Take a peek on eBay sometime. ISA Soundblaster cards go for stupid coin. > > g. Seriously? I need to see what I have in my stash. I think I might have dumped them all though. Zane From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 8 11:02:09 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:02:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <018701d47780$5650c480$02f24d80$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2018, Zane Healy wrote: > >> On Nov 8, 2018, at 8:52 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Thu, 8 Nov 2018, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: >> >>> >>> Seriously? Vintage Sound Blaster cards are still so easy to come by! I pass them up all the time because they never sold well. >>> >> Take a peek on eBay sometime. ISA Soundblaster cards go for stupid coin. >> >> g. > > Seriously? I need to see what I have in my stash. I think I might have > dumped them all though. I was trying to find a good 16 bit ISA SB card the other day (before I found my stash) and they were all north of $50. g. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Nov 8 11:12:34 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:12:34 -0700 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: <1890D0A7-C040-4D54-8A94-201AAED2F086@avanthar.com> References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <018701d47780$5650c480$02f24d80$@com> <1890D0A7-C040-4D54-8A94-201AAED2F086@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 11/08/2018 09:52 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > That was my thought. Though I?m wondering if this is recreating them > to run on a modern computer. That would sort of make sense. The recreations that I've seen have been bus and feature parity. I view them as alternatives, vs the real things, so that people can enjoy the experience in their retro computers. I think changing the bus would alter things enough to be a problem. Can games expecting an 8 / 16 bit ISA SoundBlaster work with a PCI counterpart? Or is there enough difference that it would take new drivers / code? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Nov 8 11:14:47 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:14:47 -0700 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: <018701d47780$5650c480$02f24d80$@com> References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <018701d47780$5650c480$02f24d80$@com> Message-ID: <55a6091f-2926-3202-cef8-e94de62bc3ea@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/08/2018 09:30 AM, Electronics Plus wrote: > Seriously? Vintage Sound Blaster cards are still so easy to come by! I > pass them up all the time because they never sold well. Yes. Please pick them up and start (re)selling them at a reasonable price. From sales at elecplus.com Thu Nov 8 11:17:58 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 11:17:58 -0600 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <018701d47780$5650c480$02f24d80$@com> <1890D0A7-C040-4D54-8A94-201AAED2F086@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <01aa01d47786$ff10a170$fd31e450$@com> I think changing the bus would alter things enough to be a problem. Can games expecting an 8 / 16 bit ISA SoundBlaster work with a PCI counterpart? Or is there enough difference that it would take new drivers / code? -- Grant. . . . unix || die In my experience, games written for CGA and 80286 do not do well on modern equipment. You CAN play them, but they are really slow. The video and sound still work on a Pentium III with PCI audio and PCI or AGP video, as long as you still load DOS and/or Win 3.1. Anything higher than a PIII seems to be difficult to find drivers to make the basics of the motherboard work under the old OS. World of Warcraft in our household went from a 386 to a PIII, and then got set aside as we kept upgrading computers. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 11:23:57 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 18:23:57 +0100 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: <01aa01d47786$ff10a170$fd31e450$@com> References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <018701d47780$5650c480$02f24d80$@com> <1890D0A7-C040-4D54-8A94-201AAED2F086@avanthar.com> <01aa01d47786$ff10a170$fd31e450$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 at 18:18, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > In my experience, games written for CGA and 80286 do not do well on modern equipment. This is why DOSBox exists. https://www.dosbox.com/ It's a DOS PC emulator for modern PCs, mainly for playing old games. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From sales at elecplus.com Thu Nov 8 11:46:39 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 11:46:39 -0600 Subject: ISA sound and video cards, and PCI? AGP? Message-ID: <01d801d4778b$01420390$03c60ab0$@com> My recycler in Chicago will hunt some down for me. Tested and working, they will be about $25 each. Sound reasonable? May have slight cosmetic defects due to coming from recycler, bit I will test all the functions. I knew there must be some reason I saved all those old floppies! Do you guys want PCI cards too? Same price? AGP video cards? Cindy Croxton --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 8 12:01:05 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 11:01:05 -0700 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <018701d47780$5650c480$02f24d80$@com> <1890D0A7-C040-4D54-8A94-201AAED2F086@avanthar.com> <01aa01d47786$ff10a170$fd31e450$@com> Message-ID: On 11/8/2018 10:23 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 at 18:18, Electronics Plus via cctalk > wrote: >> >> In my experience, games written for CGA and 80286 do not do well on modern equipment. > > This is why DOSBox exists. > > https://www.dosbox.com/ > > It's a DOS PC emulator for modern PCs, mainly for playing old games. > But in a pinch it can run some very old DOS code. I was using it for DOS small C many moons ago. Ben. From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Thu Nov 8 12:24:49 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 11:24:49 -0700 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> Message-ID: http://ps-2.kev009.com/rs6000/serialconsole.html On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 3:30 PM Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Since RS6K systems have been mentioned recently, I thought I should ask > for advice. I have a Powerserver 320H with 32MB of RAM, an 8-port async > EIA-232 adapter, a SCSI adapter and a 400MB HD. No framebuffer or > keyboard; no LAN card. Because of the last issue, I haven't tried to do > much with it. I tried getting it to talk on the serial console (Serial > 1 connector in the back), following all the advice I found on the net: > The pinout of the MODU serial connector, the null modem cable with full > handshake (also driving the DCD line in the 320H). I turn it on in > service mode, and it spits a lot of LED codes, finds the HD, spins it up > and it apparently loads something (I suppose AIX) from it. But nothing > is ever sent out on the serial 1 port, or any other serial port. I > believe that during the POST it fails to initialize the serial 1 and 2 > ports, because the 320H's DTR and RTS lines are never asserted (the > ports in the async RS232 card do assert these on power up, but they are > equally silent). I made sure that the CTS, DSR and DCD inputs of the > 320H are being driven by the external terminal. > > I made a video of the LED codes during POST and found some problems; > here are the codes and their meaning: > > 120 BIST starting a CRC check on the 8752 EPROM. > 122 BIST started a CRC check on the first 32K bytes of the OCS EPROM. > 124 BIST started a CRC check on the OCS area of NVRAM. > 130 BIST presence test started. > 101 BIST started following reset. > 153 BIST started ACLST test code. > 154 BIST started AST test code. > 100 BIST completed successfully; control was passed to IPL ROS. > 211 IPL ROM CRC comparison error (irrecoverable). !!!!!!! > 214 Power status register failed (irrecoverable). !!!!!!! > 218 RAM POST is looking for good memory. > 219 RAM POST bit map is being generated. > 290 IOCC POST error (irrecoverable). !!!!!!! > 291 Standard I/O POST running. > 252 Attempting a Service mode IPL from 7012 DBA disk-attached > devices specified in IPL ROM Default Device List. > 253 Attempting a Service mode IPL from SCSI-attached devices > specified in the IPL ROM Default Device List. > 299 IPL ROM passed control to the loaded program code. > > 814 NVRAM being identified or configured. > > 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration > method. > 813 Battery for time-of-day, NVRAM, and so on being identified or > configured, or system I/O control logic being identified or > configured. > 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration > method. > 520 Bus configuration running. > 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration > method. > 869 SCSI adapter being identified or configured. > 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration > method. > 954 400MB SCSI disk drive being identified or configured. > 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration > method. > 539 The configuration method has terminated, and control has > returned to the configuration manager. > 551 IPL varyon is running. > 553 IPL phase 1 is complete. > > The code 290 above is particularly worrysome, I think. The NVRAM > battery reads 2.85 volts even after all these years. I reseated all of > the chips that are on bases, all of the cards, and connectors; there was > no change. Any ideas on how to proceed? > > carlos. > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 8 12:44:35 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:44:35 -0800 Subject: ISO IBM 3708 documentation In-Reply-To: <675dc4af-8d82-fd0a-4eb5-b4a016a185c3@bitsavers.org> References: <675dc4af-8d82-fd0a-4eb5-b4a016a185c3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <072654b2-3675-a642-eb2e-bd403d6c6b62@bitsavers.org> On 11/7/18 7:54 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/17/18 9:30 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Does anyone have copies of the planning (GA27-3609) or configuration (GA27-3726) >> documents for the 3708 protocol converter? docs are up on bitsavers now From sales at elecplus.com Thu Nov 8 12:48:54 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 12:48:54 -0600 Subject: ISA sound and video cards, and PCI? AGP? In-Reply-To: <01d801d4778b$01420390$03c60ab0$@com> References: <01d801d4778b$01420390$03c60ab0$@com> Message-ID: <020701d47793$b32fd020$198f7060$@com> The problem with trying to get these any cheaper is that the gold value, by the pound, exceeds what I think an untested card should go for. They want to charge me $7-10 PER CARD, and that is untested. Then I have to pay shipping, and labor to get them tested. Sorry if this seems unreasonable to you guys. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics Plus via cctalk Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 11:47 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: ISA sound and video cards, and PCI? AGP? My recycler in Chicago will hunt some down for me. Tested and working, they will be about $25 each. Sound reasonable? May have slight cosmetic defects due to coming from recycler, bit I will test all the functions. I knew there must be some reason I saved all those old floppies! Do you guys want PCI cards too? Same price? AGP video cards? Cindy Croxton --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Nov 8 12:58:52 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:58:52 -0800 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: <01aa01d47786$ff10a170$fd31e450$@com> References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <018701d47780$5650c480$02f24d80$@com> <1890D0A7-C040-4D54-8A94-201AAED2F086@avanthar.com> <01aa01d47786$ff10a170$fd31e450$@com> Message-ID: <56F43FDE-ED24-4EB8-9575-EDD127021550@avanthar.com> > On Nov 8, 2018, at 9:17 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > In my experience, games written for CGA and 80286 do not do well on modern equipment. You CAN play them, but they are really slow. The video and sound still work on a Pentium III with PCI audio and PCI or AGP video, as long as you still load DOS and/or Win 3.1. Anything higher than a PIII seems to be difficult to find drivers to make the basics of the motherboard work under the old OS. World of Warcraft in our household went from a 386 to a PIII, and then got set aside as we kept upgrading computers. > > Cindy I still remember running the original F-16 Falcon game on a 286. It was so fast that you?d take off and crash before you even knew what was happening. IIRC, the F-16 Falcon AT version ran just fine. I bought a copy of ?Master of Orion? and a couple other old games from GOG.com, it?s running in DOSbox, and lets me run them on my Mac (though I?d rather run the old Mac version of MOO, as it allows a much higher screen resolution than the DOS version, same with Warlords II). Realistically I only have time for Atari 2600 games these days (a few minutes here and there). Zane From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 8 12:59:52 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:59:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: ISA sound and video cards, and PCI? AGP? In-Reply-To: <020701d47793$b32fd020$198f7060$@com> References: <01d801d4778b$01420390$03c60ab0$@com> <020701d47793$b32fd020$198f7060$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2018, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > The problem with trying to get these any cheaper is that the gold value, by > the pound, exceeds what I think an untested card should go for. They want to > charge me $7-10 PER CARD, and that is untested. Then I have to pay shipping, > and labor to get them tested. Sorry if this seems unreasonable to you guys. > >From my standpoint, $25 for a tested card is fair. That being said, I think anyone under the illusion that there's a worthwhile amount of gold in a Sound Blaster has been spending too much time huffing mercury fumes. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Nov 8 13:01:59 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 11:01:59 -0800 Subject: VAX 9440 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <667633DD-5CC5-4925-B8C4-9441EAD2F410@avanthar.com> Outstanding, glad to hear these were saved. Zane > On Nov 8, 2018, at 1:09 AM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Evan, > > Beautiful catch! Congrats to everyone. > > Paul > > On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 12:09 AM Evan Koblentz via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> The VCF museum took delivery of a VAX 9440 today. >> >> It arrived in two 28-foot trailers. Here's our forklift driver beginning >> to unload the first truck: >> >> >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E-Q5xrsYXyjrZEZh92xIBhlStvvNUcRV/view?usp=sharing >> >> Here's a teaser picture of the main cabinet: >> >> >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bEpSMzBEeOvuDnzPQ9Npc7iYmDhjZq8c/view?usp=sharing >> >> The full system is 30-40 feet long when it's all set up! It is in >> pristine condition and was in service at a defense contractor until a >> couple of months ago. >> >> Rumor has it that we arranged for another one to land in Dave McGuire's >> Large Scale Systems Museum collection, and a third to be with Bob >> Roswell's System Source collection. :) Perhaps they'll post updates too! >> From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 13:17:16 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 14:17:16 -0500 Subject: ISA sound and video cards, and PCI? AGP? In-Reply-To: References: <01d801d4778b$01420390$03c60ab0$@com> <020701d47793$b32fd020$198f7060$@com> Message-ID: > That being said, I > think anyone under the illusion that there's a worthwhile amount of gold > in a Sound Blaster has been spending too much time huffing mercury fumes. That, or they might actually understand how the scrap industry works. -- Will From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Thu Nov 8 13:21:31 2018 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 19:21:31 +0000 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com>, Message-ID: I use a DEC DECConnect system on mine... I have a DB25 to MMJ on the RS/6000 side, and a DB9 to MMJ on the other. Plus you can swap out the MMJ adapters on either end of the cable to talk to whatever you need. I highly recommend them because they do the right thing 99.9% of the time. ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Kevin Bowling via cctalk Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 10:24 AM To: Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; carlos_murillo at ieee.org Subject: Re: RS6k 7012/320H woes http://ps-2.kev009.com/rs6000/serialconsole.html Obtaining console on RS/6000 - Kev009.com ps-2.kev009.com Obtaining console on RS/6000. This often throws people for a loop. There are all sorts of reasons you won't get console from your rs6k. Make sure you are using a fully wired Laplink-style null modem cable. On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 3:30 PM Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Since RS6K systems have been mentioned recently, I thought I should ask > for advice. I have a Powerserver 320H with 32MB of RAM, an 8-port async > EIA-232 adapter, a SCSI adapter and a 400MB HD. No framebuffer or > keyboard; no LAN card. Because of the last issue, I haven't tried to do > much with it. I tried getting it to talk on the serial console (Serial > 1 connector in the back), following all the advice I found on the net: > The pinout of the MODU serial connector, the null modem cable with full > handshake (also driving the DCD line in the 320H). I turn it on in > service mode, and it spits a lot of LED codes, finds the HD, spins it up > and it apparently loads something (I suppose AIX) from it. But nothing > is ever sent out on the serial 1 port, or any other serial port. I > believe that during the POST it fails to initialize the serial 1 and 2 > ports, because the 320H's DTR and RTS lines are never asserted (the > ports in the async RS232 card do assert these on power up, but they are > equally silent). I made sure that the CTS, DSR and DCD inputs of the > 320H are being driven by the external terminal. > > I made a video of the LED codes during POST and found some problems; > here are the codes and their meaning: > > 120 BIST starting a CRC check on the 8752 EPROM. > 122 BIST started a CRC check on the first 32K bytes of the OCS EPROM. > 124 BIST started a CRC check on the OCS area of NVRAM. > 130 BIST presence test started. > 101 BIST started following reset. > 153 BIST started ACLST test code. > 154 BIST started AST test code. > 100 BIST completed successfully; control was passed to IPL ROS. > 211 IPL ROM CRC comparison error (irrecoverable). !!!!!!! > 214 Power status register failed (irrecoverable). !!!!!!! > 218 RAM POST is looking for good memory. > 219 RAM POST bit map is being generated. > 290 IOCC POST error (irrecoverable). !!!!!!! > 291 Standard I/O POST running. > 252 Attempting a Service mode IPL from 7012 DBA disk-attached > devices specified in IPL ROM Default Device List. > 253 Attempting a Service mode IPL from SCSI-attached devices > specified in the IPL ROM Default Device List. > 299 IPL ROM passed control to the loaded program code. > > 814 NVRAM being identified or configured. > > 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration > method. > 813 Battery for time-of-day, NVRAM, and so on being identified or > configured, or system I/O control logic being identified or > configured. > 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration > method. > 520 Bus configuration running. > 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration > method. > 869 SCSI adapter being identified or configured. > 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration > method. > 954 400MB SCSI disk drive being identified or configured. > 538 The configuration manager is going to invoke a configuration > method. > 539 The configuration method has terminated, and control has > returned to the configuration manager. > 551 IPL varyon is running. > 553 IPL phase 1 is complete. > > The code 290 above is particularly worrysome, I think. The NVRAM > battery reads 2.85 volts even after all these years. I reseated all of > the chips that are on bases, all of the cards, and connectors; there was > no change. Any ideas on how to proceed? > > carlos. > > From pat at vax11.net Thu Nov 8 13:55:46 2018 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 14:55:46 -0500 Subject: ISA sound and video cards, and PCI? AGP? In-Reply-To: References: <01d801d4778b$01420390$03c60ab0$@com> <020701d47793$b32fd020$198f7060$@com> Message-ID: $7-10 to sort out and carefully handle (vs usual strip for gold recovery), seems pretty reasonable to me. I'd expect the cost has more to do with labor than gold being recovered. Pat On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 2:17 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > That being said, I > > think anyone under the illusion that there's a worthwhile amount of gold > > in a Sound Blaster has been spending too much time huffing mercury fumes. > > That, or they might actually understand how the scrap industry works. > > -- > Will > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 14:15:09 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 15:15:09 -0500 Subject: ISA sound and video cards, and PCI? AGP? In-Reply-To: References: <01d801d4778b$01420390$03c60ab0$@com> <020701d47793$b32fd020$198f7060$@com> Message-ID: > $7-10 to sort out and carefully handle (vs usual strip for gold recovery), > seems pretty reasonable to me. I'd expect the cost has more to do with > labor than gold being recovered. Yes, probably half of the asking price is the metal, the rest is labor, shipping and handling, and just a plain old premium for the scrapper to do something different. Of the metal value, it is mostly gold, but also palladium, platinum, rhodium, silver, tantalum, and copper. When the boards are melted into the big ingots, they tend to be mostly copper - and that is certainly worth money. Also, just "being a board" has value. Scrappers sometimes need to make quotas or limits with the refineries in order to get good refining rates. I realize none of this will sink in. -- Will From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 15:14:51 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 16:14:51 -0500 Subject: ISA sound and video cards, and PCI? AGP? In-Reply-To: References: <01d801d4778b$01420390$03c60ab0$@com> <020701d47793$b32fd020$198f7060$@com> Message-ID: Ive been kinda debating setting up a web store and stockpiling the nicer pci, isa and agp cards that would be otherwise scrapped out at the shop. If you are in need of a card, let me know and i can set you up with a deal, tested worKing. just send me an email with what you need and i will let you know whats in stock. Idea is to catch the good cards before they end up in the barrel. Even still ive had about 50/50 luck with getting stuff to work once its out there. https://i.postimg.cc/4xXJXf62/20181108-161022.jpg On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 3:15 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > $7-10 to sort out and carefully handle (vs usual strip for gold > recovery), > > seems pretty reasonable to me. I'd expect the cost has more to do with > > labor than gold being recovered. > > Yes, probably half of the asking price is the metal, the rest is > labor, shipping and handling, and just a plain old premium for the > scrapper to do something different. > > Of the metal value, it is mostly gold, but also palladium, platinum, > rhodium, silver, tantalum, and copper. When the boards are melted into > the big ingots, they tend to be mostly copper - and that is certainly > worth money. > > Also, just "being a board" has value. Scrappers sometimes need to make > quotas or limits with the refineries in order to get good refining > rates. > > I realize none of this will sink in. > > -- > Will > From jsw at ieee.org Thu Nov 8 15:35:14 2018 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 15:35:14 -0600 Subject: NeXT Monitor Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ba02285-cac6-0c0c-2b6b-842c29d76f39@ieee.org> On 11/8/18 10:08 AM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: >> The monitor works okay; slight burn in, but otherwise looks okay in >> terms >> of the phosphor. However, something seems to be wonky with the >> horizontal >> scan...the left edge is very wobbly. > > Replace all electrolytic caps with new Panasonic of Nichicon 105 > degree caps from a source like Digikey, Mouser, Newark or AVNet. > > So... I've heard a lot of NeXT monitors get dim over time. There is a > tool for rejuvinating CRTs. I wondere if it would work rejuvinating > NeXT monitor to bring back brightness. > My recollection is that the NeXT monitors left their heater (filament) on all the time, when the computer was otherwise off. This causes the cathode emission to decay over time.? Some of the rejuvenation devices work by simply raising the heater voltage. The others work by temporarily raising the heater voltage while using a high voltage between cathode and CRT to try to reform the cathodes. I don't have any experience in using these with the NeXT monitors, but the first method is likely to shorten the filament life even further.? If the CRT is "gassy", not much can be done. I would definitely image the drive before it deteriorates any further.? Be careful about using the 'dd' command with a 'bs' other than the sector size of the disk.? Since the drive already has bad sectors, using the "conv=noerror,sync" option has some unexpected side-effects when bs>sector size.? See http://www.noah.org/wiki/Dd_-_Destroyer_of_Disks under "Copy a drive to an image file" Jerry From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Nov 8 15:54:49 2018 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 22:54:49 +0100 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <20181108215449.GJ6450@Update.UU.SE> And they walked tight by his VT05 :) Entertainng show! Even though I suspect some of those "finds" are planted. /P On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 10:18:48AM -0500, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > And of course, Jason T. would be in the very first episode :) > > On 2018-11-08 05:23, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > >I am sure this is not authorized in any way but here's a link to > >the first > >episode on Youtube. > > > >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iroAInAMfYo > > > >On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 5:19 AM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < > >cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >>???? > >> > >> > >> > >>On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 12:09 AM corey cohen via cctalk < > >>cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>> Can?t see it yet in the states, but I was wondering if anyone here saw it > >>> and what you though. I was involved with the show. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Cheers, > >>> Corey > >>> > >>> corey cohen > >>> u??o? ???o? > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >> From edcross at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 16:36:25 2018 From: edcross at gmail.com (Ed C.) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 23:36:25 +0100 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: <20181108215449.GJ6450@Update.UU.SE> References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <20181108215449.GJ6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Replace some with all and you have it. TV programs like these are fully scripted months in advance. On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 10:54 PM Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > And they walked tight by his VT05 :) > > Entertainng show! Even though I suspect some of those "finds" are > planted. > > /P > > On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 10:18:48AM -0500, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > > > And of course, Jason T. would be in the very first episode :) > > > > On 2018-11-08 05:23, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > > >I am sure this is not authorized in any way but here's a link to > > >the first > > >episode on Youtube. > > > > > >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iroAInAMfYo > > > > > >On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 5:19 AM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < > > >cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > >>???? > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 12:09 AM corey cohen via cctalk < > > >>cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Can?t see it yet in the states, but I was wondering if anyone here > saw it > > >>> and what you though. I was involved with the show. > > >>> > > >>> Thanks, > > >>> Cheers, > > >>> Corey > > >>> > > >>> corey cohen > > >>> u??o? ???o? > > >>> Sent from my iPhone > > >> > From schlae at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 16:37:01 2018 From: schlae at gmail.com (Eric Schlaepfer) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 14:37:01 -0800 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <018701d47780$5650c480$02f24d80$@com> Message-ID: Many of the 8-bit ones go for quite a bit more. There was an SB 1.5 that went for $200 recently, and a Game Blaster went for $400! Once you go past the SB Pro the prices drop a lot, SB 16s (especially the Vibras) are dirt cheap. I think people have a fascination for the old Creative CMS chips (just Philips SAA1099 devices) and the SB 1.X and Game Blaster cards are one way to try them out. On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 9:02 AM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 8 Nov 2018, Zane Healy wrote: > > > > >> On Nov 8, 2018, at 8:52 AM, geneb via cctalk > wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, 8 Nov 2018, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> Seriously? Vintage Sound Blaster cards are still so easy to come by! I > pass them up all the time because they never sold well. > >>> > >> Take a peek on eBay sometime. ISA Soundblaster cards go for stupid > coin. > >> > >> g. > > > > Seriously? I need to see what I have in my stash. I think I might have > > dumped them all though. > > I was trying to find a good 16 bit ISA SB card the other day (before I > found my stash) and they were all north of $50. > > g. > > From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 17:13:20 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 17:13:20 -0600 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: <20181108215449.GJ6450@Update.UU.SE> References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <20181108215449.GJ6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 3:54 PM Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > And they walked tight by his VT05 :) And I'd have told them to keep walking! But really, it's a video games/kitchy electronics show; they're not hardcore computer collectors. I don't even know what a show about "us" would look like. Probably nothing that would fit in 23 minutes - it can take me that long just to tell the story of how I acquired a single item. I've always wanted to create an text adventure about computer collecting, though. Seek out rare finds! Evade goldbugs! Avoid earning the "hoarder" label while still dying with the most toys! > Entertaining show! Even though I suspect some of those "finds" are planted. That's probably a safe assumption - it's TV, after all. But I can say, in my case, all of the items they bought from me were part of my collection. We may have moved them between rooms of the house to fit their narrative, but they were here well before I got involved with the show. -j From alan at alanlee.org Thu Nov 8 17:32:51 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 18:32:51 -0500 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <20181108215449.GJ6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <8397bbeed2e2ab21a91fa01d821a7b8a@alanlee.org> On 2018-11-08 18:13, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > I've always wanted to create an text adventure about computer > collecting, though. Seek out rare finds! Evade goldbugs! Avoid > earning the "hoarder" label while still dying with the most toys! Pahhh. Avoiding earning the 'hoarder' label is easy: > Look around "You are a treasure room filled with countless precious artifacts of vintage significance. You see a an Apple I board, a running Cray I, and the original UNIVAC operating all around you. You may move East, West, and South." > Take Apple I "Oh no! You have run out of space in your hoarder cache. You must make additional room" > Move North "You have discovered a SECRET PASSAGEWAY. In the room before you lies the 'cache of everlasting warehouse space'. > Take cache "Congratulations. Your space to warez ratio is now under hoarder threshold forever-more." > Move South "You are back in the treasure room." > Take all "You've won the game! The End!" -Alan H. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 8 18:29:07 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 17:29:07 -0700 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: <8397bbeed2e2ab21a91fa01d821a7b8a@alanlee.org> References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <20181108215449.GJ6450@Update.UU.SE> <8397bbeed2e2ab21a91fa01d821a7b8a@alanlee.org> Message-ID: On 11/8/2018 4:32 PM, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > On 2018-11-08 18:13, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > >> I've always wanted to create an text adventure about computer >> collecting, though.? Seek out rare finds!? Evade goldbugs!? Avoid >> earning the "hoarder" label while still dying with the most toys! > > Pahhh. Avoiding earning the 'hoarder' label is easy: > >> Look around > > "You are a treasure room filled with countless precious > artifacts of vintage significance.? You see a an Apple I board, > a running Cray I, and the original UNIVAC operating all around > you.? You may move East, West, and South." > >> Take Apple I > > "Oh no!? You have run out of space in your hoarder cache.? You > must make additional room" > >> Move North > > "You have discovered a SECRET PASSAGEWAY.? In the room before you > lies the 'cache of everlasting warehouse space'. > >> Take cache > > "Congratulations.? Your space to warez ratio is now under hoarder > threshold forever-more." > >> Move South > > "You are back in the treasure room." > >> Take all > > "You've won the game!? The End!" > > -Alan H. > You are attacked by Microsoft zombies - 47 HP > Take all but the apple. You get back to reality with your prize. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Nov 8 18:48:18 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 16:48:18 -0800 Subject: HP-Apollo 9000/400t series stand, disk sleds or their specifications Message-ID: <8960BC9B-EC0A-48CB-8EB7-13D5FD051B08@eschatologist.net> Does anyone have the stand for an HP-Apollo 9000/400t series, or specs for it (particularly the screws used to attach it to the main unit)? I haven?t seen screw specifications in the online reference material I?ve found, so it?ll be hard to make my own stand. Also, does anyone have a part number or other specifications for the internal disk sleds the 9000/400t series use, so I can secure the disks to the unit? I haven?t seen a part number in any of the online reference material I?ve found. -- Chris From chd at chdickman.com Thu Nov 8 20:29:47 2018 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 21:29:47 -0500 Subject: WTB Allen-Bradley PLC-2/30, etc Message-ID: I am interested in old programmable controllers. I would like to put together a Allen-Bradley PLC-2/30 controller with at least one 1771 IO Chassis and some IO modules. ebay has some thing for a price, but if anyone has this type of hardware I would be interested. From coreyvcf at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 06:39:26 2018 From: coreyvcf at gmail.com (corey cohen) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:39:26 -0500 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks. The video does cut out before my ?creator? credit, but friends in Canada took a screen shot of it for me since it?s one of the last credits. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 8, 2018, at 5:23 AM, Santo Nucifora wrote: > > I am sure this is not authorized in any way but here's a link to the first episode on Youtube. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iroAInAMfYo > >> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 5:19 AM Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: >> ???? >> >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 12:09 AM corey cohen via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> > Can?t see it yet in the states, but I was wondering if anyone here saw it >> > and what you though. I was involved with the show. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Cheers, >> > Corey >> > >> > corey cohen >> > u??o? ???o? >> > Sent from my iPhone From coreyvcf at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 12:53:53 2018 From: coreyvcf at gmail.com (corey cohen) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 13:53:53 -0500 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48B3D064-3E33-4CAF-918D-AC7F8B84FE28@gmail.com> You can only watch them in Canada and the first episode is the only one you can watch even if your in Canada without a cable subscription. corey cohen u??o? ???o? Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 8, 2018, at 10:16 AM, Nemo Nusquam wrote: > >> On 11/06/18 07:25, corey cohen via cctalk wrote: >> Can?t see it yet in the states, but I was wondering if anyone here saw it and > > what you though. I was involved with the show. > > They seem to be available here: https://www.discovery.ca/Shows/Vintage-Tech-Hunters > > N. > >> Thanks, >> Cheers, >> Corey >> >> corey cohen >> u??o? ???o? >> Sent from my iPhone >> From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Nov 8 21:10:42 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 21:10:42 -0600 Subject: WTB Allen-Bradley PLC-2/30, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5BE4FAB2.5080907@pico-systems.com> On 11/08/2018 08:29 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > I am interested in old programmable controllers. I would like to put > together a Allen-Bradley PLC-2/30 controller with at least one 1771 IO > Chassis and some IO modules. > > ebay has some thing for a price, but if anyone has this type of hardware I > would be interested. > Any interest in Allen-Bradley 7320 CNC control? It has a big I/O chassis as well. It worked when I last powered it up, a long time ago. Jon From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 21:14:52 2018 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 22:14:52 -0500 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: <48B3D064-3E33-4CAF-918D-AC7F8B84FE28@gmail.com> References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <48B3D064-3E33-4CAF-918D-AC7F8B84FE28@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Corey, You can watch the second episode on the Discovery Canada website as well. I just watched both. Very nice on the credits by the way. I think it's a great show with a good variety of items. My only feedback is that I'm not a fan of how the summarization of the purchase is measured by potential profit. One has to mentally calculate what the selling value is. Most other shows summarize purchases with a final potential selling value so that people can easily see how much something is worth. Maybe it's just me but throwing the word "profit" around a lot makes it seem the buyers are in it for the money more than the other shows which I know is the case for the others but it seems less "greedy" when final selling prices are stated; leaving the viewer to mentally calculate the profit. Hope that makes sense. On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 9:56 PM corey cohen via cctalk wrote: > You can only watch them in Canada and the first episode is the only one > you can watch even if your in Canada without a cable subscription. > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Nov 8, 2018, at 10:16 AM, Nemo Nusquam wrote: > > > >> On 11/06/18 07:25, corey cohen via cctalk wrote: > >> Can?t see it yet in the states, but I was wondering if anyone here saw > it and > > > what you though. I was involved with the show. > > > > They seem to be available here: > https://www.discovery.ca/Shows/Vintage-Tech-Hunters > > > > N. > > > >> Thanks, > >> Cheers, > >> Corey > >> > >> corey cohen > >> u??o? ???o? > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 22:59:51 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 22:59:51 -0600 Subject: WTB Allen-Bradley PLC-2/30, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have some 1771 parts here somewhere. I'll try to look this weekend. Thanks, Paul On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 8:30 PM Charles Dickman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I am interested in old programmable controllers. I would like to put > together a Allen-Bradley PLC-2/30 controller with at least one 1771 IO > Chassis and some IO modules. > > ebay has some thing for a price, but if anyone has this type of hardware I > would be interested. > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Thu Nov 8 23:09:24 2018 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 00:09:24 -0500 Subject: DEC Alpha Bug Check Crash Message-ID: <2d9f2543-0611-29d7-6514-37e7d87e4aea@comcast.net> I hadn't started this DEC Alpha 3000-300 since last summer, and booted it up so I could load the new PAK's the other day. The result was that it completes almost the entire OpenVMS startup, but then crashes with the following: %SET-I-INTSET, login interactive limit = 64, current interactive value = 0 **** OpenVMS Alpha Operating System V8.4???? - BUGCHECK **** ** Bugcheck code = 000001CC: INVEXCEPTN, Exception while above ASTDEL ** Crash CPU: 00000000??? Primary CPU: 00000000??? Node Name: A300 ** Highest CPU number:??? 00000000 ** Active CPUs:?????????? 00000000.00000001 ** Current Process:?????? DECW$STARTUP ** Current PSB ID:??????? 00000001 ** Image Name: A300$DKA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]DECW$CONFIG.EXE;1 **** Starting selective memory dump at? 8-NOV-2018 21:57... The disk is a SCSI2SD board with an 8 GB SD card.? It had been running just fine, until now. Does this crash point to a hardware or software problem? From ethan at 757.org Thu Nov 8 23:27:46 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 00:27:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <48B3D064-3E33-4CAF-918D-AC7F8B84FE28@gmail.com> Message-ID: > You can watch the second episode on the Discovery Canada website as well. > I just watched both. Very nice on the credits by the way. I tried to watch it on the drive home from work today. Youtube video had a strike (takedown) so it's gone. The web site had IP geolocation and rejected my phone. So looks like it's Canada only. So most people will need to use a VPN to get to the Discovery site from a .ca IP, or maybe it's nerdy enough that it will show up via various underground conduits of content. I am going to ping a friend tomorrow who has a 500TB TV rig and see if he has heard of it. -- : Ethan O'Toole From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Nov 9 07:26:20 2018 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 14:26:20 +0100 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <20181108215449.GJ6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20181109132620.GK6450@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 05:13:20PM -0600, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 3:54 PM Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk > wrote: > > And they walked tight by his VT05 :) > > And I'd have told them to keep walking! :D > But really, it's a video games/kitchy electronics > show; they're not hardcore computer collectors. I > don't even know what a show about "us" would look > like. I'd rather not find out :) It was fun to watch though, close enough to my interrests to be entertaining. > Probably nothing that would fit in 23 minutes > - it can take me that long just to tell the story > of how I acquired a single item. Showing my computers to guests tends to turn in to storytelling :) If the gueat are into it of course. > > I've always wanted to create an text adventure about computer > collecting, though. Seek out rare finds! Evade goldbugs! Avoid > earning the "hoarder" label while still dying with the most toys! > I would play it :) > > > Entertaining show! Even though I suspect some of those "finds" are planted. > > That's probably a safe assumption - it's TV, after all. But I can > say, in my case, all of the items they bought from me were part of my > collection. We may have moved them between rooms of the house to fit > their narrative, but they were here well before I got involved with > the show. Oh, don't doubt that.. but the odyssey was to good to be true I think. Or they had many scouts. /P From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 08:19:31 2018 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 08:19:31 -0600 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <48B3D064-3E33-4CAF-918D-AC7F8B84FE28@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 6:54 AM Ethan via cctalk wrote: > > You can watch the second episode on the Discovery Canada website as well. > > I just watched both. Very nice on the credits by the way. > > I tried to watch it on the drive home from work today. Youtube video had a > strike (takedown) so it's gone. The web site had IP geolocation and > rejected my phone. So looks like it's Canada only. > > So most people will need to use a VPN to get to the Discovery site from a > .ca IP, or maybe it's nerdy enough that it will show up via various > underground conduits of content. I am going to ping a friend tomorrow who > has a 500TB TV rig and see if he has heard of it. > It'd be nice if discovery.ca would actually tell you that it's a geographical limitation and not something else. When I try to watch, it tells me: > This content is not currently available for viewing in your browser. For the best video experience, we recommend using a supported browser for your platform. Please visit our FAQ for more info. 75" I assume their coding is a little off there. Otherwise, I know what a FAQ is but I wouldn't know how to instantiate it as a template on the type Va. And what, I need a 75" display too? -- Eric Christopherson From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 09:00:13 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 10:00:13 -0500 Subject: NeXT Monitor Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know a lot about these but I heard you should just replace all of the caps, even things that look like they might be caps, with the largest caps you can find. Just stuff them in there. You don't need solder, just use a glue gun. There is a pretty cool suction cup in there you can use to hold a hanging planter, etc. On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 10:20 AM Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > I've got a NeXTstation Turbo and a MegaPixel display; the computer boots > fine, but seems to complain of a failing hard drive. > > The monitor works okay; slight burn in, but otherwise looks okay in terms > of the phosphor. However, something seems to be wonky with the horizontal > scan...the left edge is very wobbly. > > Pictures here: https://imgur.com/a/azWHVuB > > Before I open this up, does anyone have any suggestions on where to start? > I didn't see a NeXT section on Bitsavers. > > I am aware of the dangers of CRTs and will be sure to discharge the anode; > I've worked on a few MDA monitors before. > > Thanks! > > Kyle > > P.S. From the hard disk error message, would you agree it's failing? Would > this indicate total failure is imminent? > From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 9 11:59:12 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 11:59:12 -0600 Subject: DEC Alpha Bug Check Crash In-Reply-To: <2d9f2543-0611-29d7-6514-37e7d87e4aea@comcast.net> References: <2d9f2543-0611-29d7-6514-37e7d87e4aea@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5BE5CAF0.3080400@pico-systems.com> On 11/08/2018 11:09 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I hadn't started this DEC Alpha 3000-300 since last > summer, and booted it up so I could load the new PAK's the > other day. > > The result was that it completes almost the entire OpenVMS > startup, but then crashes with the following: > > > %SET-I-INTSET, login interactive limit = 64, current > interactive value = 0 > > **** OpenVMS Alpha Operating System V8.4 - BUGCHECK **** > > ** Bugcheck code = 000001CC: INVEXCEPTN, Exception while > above ASTDEL > ** Crash CPU: 00000000 Primary CPU: 00000000 Node > Name: A300 > ** Highest CPU number: 00000000 > ** Active CPUs: 00000000.00000001 > ** Current Process: DECW$STARTUP > ** Current PSB ID: 00000001 > ** Image Name: > A300$DKA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]DECW$CONFIG.EXE;1 > > **** Starting selective memory dump at 8-NOV-2018 21:57... > > The disk is a SCSI2SD board with an 8 GB SD card. It had > been running just fine, until now. > > Does this crash point to a hardware or software problem? > > ASTDEL indicates that something in the OS caused a machine check interrupt. Does DECW$CONFIG mean it is the DecWindows config process that bombed? Can you get the OS to boot in non-windows mode, and try to log in from a serial terminal? If DecWindows is blowing up, it could be that the graphics adapter has a problem, is set to the wrong address, or is a different type than the software is expecting. You might unplug and reseat all mezzanine boards and cycle all DIP switches to make sure it is not just a bad connection. Jon From pat at vax11.net Fri Nov 9 13:56:24 2018 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 14:56:24 -0500 Subject: CBIS Network OS Message-ID: I saw a copy of this pop up on ebay, and was wondering if anyone had a copy / more information about it? It seems to be another networking OS for CP/M systems like Televideo's TS-806 & 816. Thanks, Pat From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 14:08:46 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 14:08:46 -0600 Subject: ISA sound and video cards, and PCI? AGP? In-Reply-To: <020701d47793$b32fd020$198f7060$@com> References: <01d801d4778b$01420390$03c60ab0$@com> <020701d47793$b32fd020$198f7060$@com> Message-ID: On 11/8/18 12:48 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > The problem with trying to get these any cheaper is that the gold value, by > the pound, exceeds what I think an untested card should go for. They want to > charge me $7-10 PER CARD, and that is untested. Then I have to pay shipping, > and labor to get them tested. Sorry if this seems unreasonable to you guys. That's interesting, my local recycler sells boards to me at $1-$3/lb depending on some notion of scrap metal content, so I'm usually looking at around $2 per card (untested). I wonder if it's one of those things where there's a huge amount of regional variation? cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 14:11:26 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 15:11:26 -0500 Subject: ISA sound and video cards, and PCI? AGP? In-Reply-To: References: <01d801d4778b$01420390$03c60ab0$@com> <020701d47793$b32fd020$198f7060$@com> Message-ID: > That's interesting, my local recycler sells boards to me at $1-$3/lb > depending on some notion of scrap metal content, so I'm usually looking at > around $2 per card (untested). I wonder if it's one of those things where > there's a huge amount of regional variation? Age of the boards, probably. -- Will From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Nov 9 14:14:59 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 15:14:59 -0500 Subject: NeXT Monitor Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5fa6ad69-ae57-fda6-c02c-c1c62ec32926@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-11-09 10:00 a.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I don't know a lot about these but I heard you should just replace all of > the caps, even things that look like they might be caps, with the largest > caps you can find. Just stuff them in there. You don't need solder, just > use a glue gun. There is a pretty cool suction cup in there you can use to > hold a hanging planter, etc. I LOL'd, but consider this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Turbo-Grafx-16-console-repair-mods-full-ceramic-capacitor-replacement-Tg16-Duo/232626229371?hash=item36299a907b:g:UKcAAOSwfpBaVkMk:rk:3:pf:0 (hat tip to @Wohali) > > On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 10:20 AM Kyle Owen via cctalk > wrote: > >> I've got a NeXTstation Turbo and a MegaPixel display; the computer boots >> fine, but seems to complain of a failing hard drive. >> ... From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Nov 9 14:37:16 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 13:37:16 -0700 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/08/2018 12:21 PM, Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk wrote: > I use a DEC DECConnect system on mine... I have a DB25 to MMJ on the > RS/6000 side, and a DB9 to MMJ on the other. Plus you can swap out the > MMJ adapters on either end of the cable to talk to whatever you need. > I highly recommend them because they do the right thing 99.9% of the time. That sounds very similar to what I've seen done with DB9 / DB25 to RJ45 (read: 8P8C) adapters. It's my understanding it's possible to use a straight through cable between the two adapters to connect equipment. The ""special nature was in how the adapter was wired. Maybe it required a rolled cable to form a null modem and connect Tx and Rx. (Mental cobwebs.) The idea was that you can use the proper adapter for the piece of equipment and then use stock cabling between everything. I don't think there was anything special that required Modified Modular Jack vs traditional 8P8C jack. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Nov 9 17:38:12 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 23:38:12 +0000 (WET) Subject: DEC Alpha Bug Check Crash In-Reply-To: <2d9f2543-0611-29d7-6514-37e7d87e4aea@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01QZGJNDN1WM0016I4@beyondthepale.ie> > I hadn't started this DEC Alpha 3000-300 since last summer, and booted > it up so I could load the new PAK's the other day. > > The result was that it completes almost the entire OpenVMS startup, but > then crashes with the following: > > > %SET-I-INTSET, login interactive limit = 64, current interactive value = 0 > > **** OpenVMS Alpha Operating System V8.4???? - BUGCHECK **** > > ** Bugcheck code = 000001CC: INVEXCEPTN, Exception while above ASTDEL > ** Crash CPU: 00000000??? Primary CPU: 00000000??? Node Name: A300 > ** Highest CPU number:??? 00000000 > ** Active CPUs:?????????? 00000000.00000001 > ** Current Process:?????? DECW$STARTUP > ** Current PSB ID:??????? 00000001 > ** Image Name: A300$DKA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]DECW$CONFIG.EXE;1 > > **** Starting selective memory dump at? 8-NOV-2018 21:57... > > The disk is a SCSI2SD board with an 8 GB SD card.? It had been running > just fine, until now. > > Does this crash point to a hardware or software problem? > I think "Exception while above ASTDEL" refers to an exception encountered while processing an interrupt in kernel mode, probably in device driver code. I think this leans more in the direction of a sofware problem while something like "Machine check in kernel mode" would lean more in the direction of a hardware problem. Having said that, I think a software problem is very unlikely unless you were running a bleeding edge version of VMS on bleeding edge hardware or performing some highly unusual operation, not just booting a well proven version of VMS on a mature system which worked perfectly well before this. If the copy of VMS on your emulated disk got damaged, I think it would be unusual to get almost all the way through the boot procedure and then fail right at the end, although I suppose very slight damage only to a DECWindows specific device driver might somehow manage to cause this. Bizarrely, I have had a faulty mouse suddenly cause all sorts of strange issues on a DEC 3000-300. It might be worth trying it without the mouse plugged in. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 18:12:16 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 19:12:16 -0500 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <20181108215449.GJ6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason T via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 6:13 PM Subject: Re: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? >... I don't even know what a show about "us" would look like. ... ---------- For those who haven't seen it, here's a 3 minute Starbucks promo shot with TPUG in Toronto that gives you an idea of what it might look like ;-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPM9oA72iQw From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 9 18:17:35 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 16:17:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <667eae1e2c37eefe2707934d193d8d19@alanlee.org> <20181108215449.GJ6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Nov 2018, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > For those who haven't seen it, here's a 3 minute Starbucks promo shot > with TPUG in Toronto that gives you an idea of what it might look like > ;-) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPM9oA72iQw > That's just too awesome. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 9 21:46:05 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 21:46:05 -0600 Subject: DEC Alpha Bug Check Crash In-Reply-To: <01QZGJNDN1WM0016I4@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01QZGJNDN1WM0016I4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <5BE6547D.8050907@pico-systems.com> On 11/09/2018 05:38 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> I hadn't started this DEC Alpha 3000-300 since last >> summer, and booted it up so I could load the new PAK's >> the other day. >> >> The result was that it completes almost the entire >> OpenVMS startup, but then crashes with the following: >> >> >> %SET-I-INTSET, login interactive limit = 64, current >> interactive value = 0 >> >> **** OpenVMS Alpha Operating System V8.4 - BUGCHECK **** >> >> ** Bugcheck code = 000001CC: INVEXCEPTN, Exception while >> above ASTDEL >> ** Crash CPU: 00000000 Primary CPU: 00000000 Node >> Name: A300 >> ** Highest CPU number: 00000000 >> ** Active CPUs: 00000000.00000001 >> ** Current Process: DECW$STARTUP >> ** Current PSB ID: 00000001 >> ** Image Name: >> A300$DKA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]DECW$CONFIG.EXE;1 >> >> **** Starting selective memory dump at 8-NOV-2018 21:57... >> >> The disk is a SCSI2SD board with an 8 GB SD card. It had >> been running just fine, until now. >> >> Does this crash point to a hardware or software problem? >> > > I think "Exception while above ASTDEL" refers to an > exception encountered > while processing an interrupt in kernel mode, probably in > device driver code. > I think this leans more in the direction of a sofware > problem while something > like "Machine check in kernel mode" would lean more in the > direction of a > hardware problem. > Well, most of my deeper experience in the driver level is VAX and not Alpha, I think a memory exception is still a machine check, and so trying to access a memory or device location that does not exist/respond is still a machine check at the very lowest level. Jon From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Fri Nov 9 22:24:49 2018 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 23:24:49 -0500 Subject: DEC Alpha Bug Check Crash In-Reply-To: <5BE5CAF0.3080400@pico-systems.com> References: <2d9f2543-0611-29d7-6514-37e7d87e4aea@comcast.net> <5BE5CAF0.3080400@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 11/9/2018 12:59 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 11/08/2018 11:09 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> I hadn't started this DEC Alpha 3000-300 since last summer, and >> booted it up so I could load the new PAK's the other day. >> >> The result was that it completes almost the entire OpenVMS startup, >> but then crashes with the following: >> >> >> %SET-I-INTSET, login interactive limit = 64, current interactive >> value = 0 >> >> **** OpenVMS Alpha Operating System V8.4???? - BUGCHECK **** >> >> ** Bugcheck code = 000001CC: INVEXCEPTN, Exception while above ASTDEL >> ** Crash CPU: 00000000??? Primary CPU: 00000000??? Node Name: A300 >> ** Highest CPU number:??? 00000000 >> ** Active CPUs:?????????? 00000000.00000001 >> ** Current Process:?????? DECW$STARTUP >> ** Current PSB ID:??????? 00000001 >> ** Image Name: A300$DKA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]DECW$CONFIG.EXE;1 >> >> **** Starting selective memory dump at? 8-NOV-2018 21:57... >> >> The disk is a SCSI2SD board with an 8 GB SD card.? It had been >> running just fine, until now. >> >> Does this crash point to a hardware or software problem? >> >> > ASTDEL indicates that something in the OS caused a machine check > interrupt.? Does DECW$CONFIG mean it is the DecWindows config process > that bombed?? Can you get the OS to boot in non-windows mode, and try > to log in from a serial terminal?? If DecWindows is blowing up, it > could be that the graphics adapter has a problem, is set to the wrong > address, or is a different type than the software is expecting.? You > might unplug and reseat all mezzanine boards and cycle all DIP > switches to make sure it is not just a bad connection. > > Jon I was able to boot the system using a serial console only by setting the jumper listed as 'W2' so that pins 2-3 were connected rather than 1-2.? It did complete the system startup and I was able to log in to the system account. This 3000-300 has no mezzanine boards, the system consists of a motherboard with a cpu board the rides on a mezzanine type of connector.? The video comes off the motherboard.? I did try wiggling the memory dimm cards.? I'll look and reseat any jumpers that are there. The last time I tried to bring up the system using only the serial console I got the bugcheck crash, which had only occurred when I tried to boot into graphics mode. It maybe that the DECW$Config.exe image is bad, since that is where the bugcheck always occurs.? Although this is confusing because it did successfully boot in console mode previously. So, the choices now seem to be; (1) replace the hardware (I think I have another 3000-300) or (2) reinstall the software.? Don't like either one. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sat Nov 10 04:26:18 2018 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 11:26:18 +0100 Subject: VAX 9440 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> That is a behemoth!! Did you ger that huge powerforming thingy that goes with it? Are you crazy enough to atempt a power-up? /P On Wed, Nov 07, 2018 at 09:55:07PM -0500, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > The VCF museum took delivery of a VAX 9440 today. > > It arrived in two 28-foot trailers. Here's our forklift driver > beginning to unload the first truck: > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E-Q5xrsYXyjrZEZh92xIBhlStvvNUcRV/view?usp=sharing > > Here's a teaser picture of the main cabinet: > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bEpSMzBEeOvuDnzPQ9Npc7iYmDhjZq8c/view?usp=sharing > > The full system is 30-40 feet long when it's all set up! It is in > pristine condition and was in service at a defense contractor until > a couple of months ago. > > Rumor has it that we arranged for another one to land in Dave > McGuire's Large Scale Systems Museum collection, and a third to be > with Bob Roswell's System Source collection. :) Perhaps they'll > post updates too! From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Nov 10 05:17:04 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 11:17:04 +0000 (WET) Subject: DEC Alpha Bug Check Crash In-Reply-To: References: <2d9f2543-0611-29d7-6514-37e7d87e4aea@comcast.net> <5BE5CAF0.3080400@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <01QZH84NI4DO0016I4@beyondthepale.ie> > > It maybe that the DECW$Config.exe image is bad, since that is where the > bugcheck always occurs.? Although this is confusing because it did > successfully boot in console mode previously. > While it's not impossible, I doubt the problem is in the DECW$Config.exe image. I think it is more likely to be in a device driver image which is exercised because of an I/O done by DECW$Config.exe. It may be that the bugcheck always happens when DECW$Config.exe is running because DECW$Config.exe is the first thing to touch the I/O device in question. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From thomas.riesen at predata.ch Sat Nov 10 06:03:51 2018 From: thomas.riesen at predata.ch (Riesen Thomas) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 12:03:51 +0000 Subject: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B Message-ID: <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> Hi all Any suggestions where to find two 50Hz-Pulleys for the 8" Floppy drive Mitsubishi M2894-63B? If there also the appropriate ribbon gummies available, I would be very happy. Regards Thomas From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Nov 10 06:25:15 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 23:25:15 +1100 Subject: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 12:03 PM 10/11/2018 +0000, you wrote: >Hi all > >Any suggestions where to find two 50Hz-Pulleys for the 8" Floppy drive >Mitsubishi M2894-63B? > >If there also the appropriate ribbon gummies available, I would be very >happy. > >Regards >Thomas Do you know what they look like, and the dimensions? Because I have these. http://everist.org/pics/misc/IMG_1655_pulley_800.jpg _Maybe_ they were off Mitsubishi drives, not sure. Had them in a box of floppy drive related bits for a loooong time, and have no recollection of where they came from. These are 49.0 mm OD, hole 4.7 mm dia. And this is Australia, with 50Hz mains. Guy From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Nov 10 08:19:29 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 01:19:29 +1100 Subject: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: <497afecfa34e4a50a1688667541c1c42@predata.ch> References: <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181111011929.0114d160@mail.optusnet.com.au> Ok. Those are quite small. So you have one? Or those are not yours? If you have one, and a way to accurately measure it, making more will be easy for anyone with a lathe. I could do it, but surely you can find a machinist closer to home? Guy At 01:03 PM 10/11/2018 +0000, Riesen Thomas wrote: >Guy, >I am looking for small motor pulley ... see pic ... >Regards >Thomas > >-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- >Von: Guy Dunphy [mailto:guykd at optusnet.com.au] >Gesendet: Samstag, 10. November 2018 13:25 >An: Riesen Thomas ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Betreff: Re: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B > >At 12:03 PM 10/11/2018 +0000, you wrote: >>Hi all >> >>Any suggestions where to find two 50Hz-Pulleys for the 8" Floppy drive >>Mitsubishi M2894-63B? >> >>If there also the appropriate ribbon gummies available, I would be very >>happy. >> >>Regards >>Thomas > > >Do you know what they look like, and the dimensions? >Because I have these. http://everist.org/pics/misc/IMG_1655_pulley_800.jpg > >_Maybe_ they were off Mitsubishi drives, not sure. Had them in a box of floppy drive related bits for a loooong time, and have no recollection of where they came from. >These are 49.0 mm OD, hole 4.7 mm dia. And this is Australia, with 50Hz mains. > >Guy > > >Attachment Converted: "f:\email\attach\Pully_8Zoll_02.jpg" > >Attachment Converted: "f:\email\attach\Pully_8Zoll_01.jpg" > From jim.manley at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 09:54:17 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 08:54:17 -0700 Subject: VAX 9440 In-Reply-To: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Evan said it was in service until a couple of months ago, so it should power up OK, if it could all be electrically and mechanically stitched back together carefully. The question is probably, could they afford the power bill? We have a bunch of Crays and CDCs at the Computer History Museum, and if they were operational, we'd probably have to take up a special very-large-hat-passing collection just to pay the power bill for the multiple,- multi-ton refrigeration units (at least one was about a seven-ton unit, IIRC)! Then, there's the problem of replacement parts for when, not if, things fail, not to mention the labor expertise and availability. It's one thing to replace discrete transistors in our IBM 1401, but, it's quite another to desolder and yank various little black rectangles off extremely dense circuit boards without destroying anything else ... and then solder in a replacement, if you can find one not already firmly attached to another board with another kind of failure. That assumes that problems can even be isolated, although at least more modern systems tend to have self-diagnostic capabilities, at least above a certain level of functionality, or lack thereof. On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 3:26 AM Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > That is a behemoth!! > > Did you ger that huge powerforming thingy that goes > with it? > > Are you crazy enough to atempt a power-up? > > /P > > On Wed, Nov 07, 2018 at 09:55:07PM -0500, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > > The VCF museum took delivery of a VAX 9440 today. > > > > It arrived in two 28-foot trailers. Here's our forklift driver > > beginning to unload the first truck: > > > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E-Q5xrsYXyjrZEZh92xIBhlStvvNUcRV/view?usp=sharing > > > > Here's a teaser picture of the main cabinet: > > > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bEpSMzBEeOvuDnzPQ9Npc7iYmDhjZq8c/view?usp=sharing > > > > The full system is 30-40 feet long when it's all set up! It is in > > pristine condition and was in service at a defense contractor until > > a couple of months ago. > > > > Rumor has it that we arranged for another one to land in Dave > > McGuire's Large Scale Systems Museum collection, and a third to be > > with Bob Roswell's System Source collection. :) Perhaps they'll > > post updates too! > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 10 09:55:52 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 15:55:52 +0000 Subject: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181111011929.0114d160@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au>, <3.0.6.32.20181111011929.0114d160@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: Typically, both the motor pulley and belt are changed as a set to keep the distance from motor to flywheel the same. In my younger days, a friend and I ground down a motor pulley, on a 50 Hz Shugart 800, to be a 60 Hz. We used a file while the motor ran. After getting the right size, we had to file mounting holes for the motor to keep the same belt. It was not the best way but we couldn't afford a new drive and we got the drive cheap, from surplus. If you change the flywheel, the distance will be to great to use the same belt or even close to the same belt. It may not even fit in the area allowed for the flywheel. According to the manual, for this drive, only the motor pulley needs to be changed as there is enough adjustment to use the same belt. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Guy Dunphy via cctalk Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 6:19 AM To: Riesen Thomas; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B Ok. Those are quite small. So you have one? Or those are not yours? If you have one, and a way to accurately measure it, making more will be easy for anyone with a lathe. I could do it, but surely you can find a machinist closer to home? Guy At 01:03 PM 10/11/2018 +0000, Riesen Thomas wrote: >Guy, >I am looking for small motor pulley ... see pic ... >Regards >Thomas > >-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- >Von: Guy Dunphy [mailto:guykd at optusnet.com.au] >Gesendet: Samstag, 10. November 2018 13:25 >An: Riesen Thomas ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Betreff: Re: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B > >At 12:03 PM 10/11/2018 +0000, you wrote: >>Hi all >> >>Any suggestions where to find two 50Hz-Pulleys for the 8" Floppy drive >>Mitsubishi M2894-63B? >> >>If there also the appropriate ribbon gummies available, I would be very >>happy. >> >>Regards >>Thomas > > >Do you know what they look like, and the dimensions? >Because I have these. http://everist.org/pics/misc/IMG_1655_pulley_800.jpg > >_Maybe_ they were off Mitsubishi drives, not sure. Had them in a box of floppy drive related bits for a loooong time, and have no recollection of where they came from. >These are 49.0 mm OD, hole 4.7 mm dia. And this is Australia, with 50Hz mains. > >Guy > > >Attachment Converted: "f:\email\attach\Pully_8Zoll_02.jpg" > >Attachment Converted: "f:\email\attach\Pully_8Zoll_01.jpg" > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 10 10:32:26 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 08:32:26 -0800 Subject: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181111011929.0114d160@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 11/10/18 7:55 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Typically, both the motor pulley and belt are changed as a set to keep the distance from motor to flywheel the same. > In my younger days, a friend and I ground down a motor pulley, on a 50 Hz Shugart 800, to be a 60 Hz. We used a file while the motor ran. After getting the right size, we had to file mounting holes for the motor to keep the same belt. It was not the best way but we couldn't afford a new drive and we got the drive cheap, from surplus. > If you change the flywheel, the distance will be to great to use the same belt or even close to the same belt. It may not even fit in the area allowed for the flywheel. > According to the manual, for this drive, only the motor pulley needs to be changed as there is enough adjustment to use the same belt. I was gifted a brand-new Qume 842 220V 50Hz drive many years ago. The 220V was no problem--I had a dual-primary transformer on the power supply, so it could be reconfigured as a 240V autotransformer and still have enough capability for the drive electronics. The problem was the 60Hz line frequency. Essentially, the motor turns somewhat faster, so you need a smaller motor pulley. I calculated what I needed and found a flanged toothed pulley for a timing belt that was exactly the right size. While the original motor pulley was crowned, the timing pulley worked exactly as calculated. It was not necessary to change the drive belt--the size difference was small enough that it could be swamped out by loosening the motor mounting bolts and adjusting. I still have the drive today--and it still works. --Chuck From leec2124 at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 12:24:47 2018 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 10:24:47 -0800 Subject: VAX 9440 In-Reply-To: References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: LCM has successfully restored and is running multiple large vintage systems. Not easy, but doable. Lee C. On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 7:55 AM Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > Evan said it was in service until a couple of months ago, so it should > power up OK, if it could all be electrically and mechanically stitched back > together carefully. The question is probably, could they afford the power > bill? We have a bunch of Crays and CDCs at the Computer History Museum, > and if they were operational, we'd probably have to take up a special > very-large-hat-passing collection just to pay the power bill for the > multiple,- multi-ton refrigeration units (at least one was about a > seven-ton unit, IIRC)! Then, there's the problem of replacement parts for > when, not if, things fail, not to mention the labor expertise and > availability. It's one thing to replace discrete transistors in our IBM > 1401, but, it's quite another to desolder and yank various little black > rectangles off extremely dense circuit boards without destroying anything > else ... and then solder in a replacement, if you can find one not already > firmly attached to another board with another kind of failure. That > assumes that problems can even be isolated, although at least more modern > systems tend to have self-diagnostic capabilities, at least above a certain > level of functionality, or lack thereof. > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 3:26 AM Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > That is a behemoth!! > > > > Did you ger that huge powerforming thingy that goes > > with it? > > > > Are you crazy enough to atempt a power-up? > > > > /P > > > > On Wed, Nov 07, 2018 at 09:55:07PM -0500, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > > > The VCF museum took delivery of a VAX 9440 today. > > > > > > It arrived in two 28-foot trailers. Here's our forklift driver > > > beginning to unload the first truck: > > > > > > > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E-Q5xrsYXyjrZEZh92xIBhlStvvNUcRV/view?usp=sharing > > > > > > Here's a teaser picture of the main cabinet: > > > > > > > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bEpSMzBEeOvuDnzPQ9Npc7iYmDhjZq8c/view?usp=sharing > > > > > > The full system is 30-40 feet long when it's all set up! It is in > > > pristine condition and was in service at a defense contractor until > > > a couple of months ago. > > > > > > Rumor has it that we arranged for another one to land in Dave > > > McGuire's Large Scale Systems Museum collection, and a third to be > > > with Bob Roswell's System Source collection. :) Perhaps they'll > > > post updates too! > > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 12:41:54 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 13:41:54 -0500 Subject: RS6k 7012/320H woes In-Reply-To: <9a82d3b9-b393-fb90-326a-96a16d6753cf@gmail.com> References: <0d3f07eb-0282-93c7-6c35-cc86f8746eff@gmail.com> <7b01b344-d5ad-f8b9-38aa-1c7dc09ef6c7@gmail.com> <8c3a4e45-d22a-9b5d-c5f5-fa9c99342c66@gmail.com> <9a82d3b9-b393-fb90-326a-96a16d6753cf@gmail.com> Message-ID: <946b46d9-b226-4c3f-a962-d6035e01bd92@gmail.com> Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > > On 2018-11-07 8:57 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: >> So, if I were to hunt for installation media for AIX, which version >> would you recommend for a 320H with 32MB of memory, i.e., the latest >> that would run and not get too bogged down by that amount of memory?? >> I can switch to a larger SCSI disk if it need be, but hopefully not >> larger than 2GB. >> >> Carlos. > I am no longer sure when support for microchannel was dropped from > AIX, I have always been on the hardware side with limited involvement > with software.?? Doing a quick look it would seem that it is likely > that some level of version 5 was the last one. Version 6.1 was 64 bit > only and required a POWER4 or later processor. > > Paul. Thanks everyone for your suggestions.? Here's an update: 1) The "terminal interposer cable" implements exactly what I had already tried? with my rs-232 breakout box, namely (taken from the net): > DB25????? to???? DB25????????? or????? DB9 > 2 TD????? to????? 3 RD???????? -?????? 3 > 3 RD????? to????? 2 TD???????? -?????? 2 > 4 RTS???? to????? 5 CTS??????? -?????? 8 > 5 CTS???? to????? 4 RTS??????? -?????? 7 > 7 GND???? to????? 7 GND??????? -?????? 5 > 6 & 8 DSR & DCD to 20 DTR????? -?????? 4 (very important) > 20 DTR??? to????? 6 & 8 DSR & DCD -??? 6 & 1 Still, no luck making the console work; the 320H does not assert DTR or RTS even though it is seeing DSR, CTS, and DCD asserted. 2) I cleaned the floppy drive (it wasn't that dirty), re-wrote the four aix diagnostics floppies and tried them once more in service mode.? The same thing happened: it reads the complete first disk (apparently without error), but then it goes again to read the hard drive and stalls in the same spot.? Does anybody have images of diagnostics floppies that would be known to work in a 320H? 3) I now have AIX 4.3.3 install CDs.? Does the 320H expect a CDROM drive to be at a specific SCSI ID? Carlos. From alan at alanlee.org Sat Nov 10 12:59:48 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 13:59:48 -0500 Subject: New to System/36 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28b215780cfee82acde12784b7f1aa5c@alanlee.org> Just picked up an IBM System/36 5362 last night. It is in pretty good physical condition with just a few minor scratches - other than needing a thorough cleaning. It has 2 60 MB hard disks in the unit. Not sure of the RAM capacity. Missing the the mode hard key. A few of us tried to get it running tonight. It came with a 3179 twin-ax terminal but no keyboard. We connected the terminal via a twinax cable direct from port 0 to the terminated Y adapter on the terminal. Never got any output on the terminal at any time other than the fairly empty status line. The S/36 front panel console light did illuminate after we connected the terminal. The key was locked to Normal but we were able to by-pass it with a jumper to get it into Service mode. The media that came with it only had disk 1 of an SSP release and we could not get that to IPL from floppy (mode 3 / panel 1000). It stepped the head motor forward and back a couple times, engaged the head, then immediately threw an error code. Any idea where I can get an SSP release for the S/36 5362 and how to write it to 8" floppies? Also where I might find a keyboard for the terminal and what can be done if anything to gauge the health of the hard drives? -Alan H. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 13:01:55 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 19:01:55 -0000 Subject: VAX 9440 In-Reply-To: References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <0b4601d47927$d9f62660$8de27320$@gmail.com> Even LCM has had issues. For example, with IBM 43xx boxes. I seem to remember their first box died with memory issues and the second had PSU issues. Not sure if the PSU is fixed. In the UK TNMOC have an ICL 2900 and that is somewhat temperamental and uses a disk drive emulator. They have all the ICL fiche.... http://www.tnmoc.org/special-projects/icl-2966 CHM keep the IBM1401 working because they have two and have plenty of spares. Large systems always needed a lot of TLC to keep them running When in production older systems had an on-site engineer. Honeywell L66 systems also came with an automated board tester that was used to diagnose chip level faults I know the DEC systems are more modern and so should be more stable, but don't underestimate the work required. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Lee Courtney via > cctalk > Sent: 10 November 2018 18:25 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VAX 9440 > > LCM has successfully restored and is running multiple large vintage systems. > Not easy, but doable. > > Lee C. > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 7:55 AM Jim Manley via cctalk > > wrote: > > > Evan said it was in service until a couple of months ago, so it should > > power up OK, if it could all be electrically and mechanically stitched > > back together carefully. The question is probably, could they afford > > the power bill? We have a bunch of Crays and CDCs at the Computer > > History Museum, and if they were operational, we'd probably have to > > take up a special very-large-hat-passing collection just to pay the > > power bill for the > > multiple,- multi-ton refrigeration units (at least one was about a > > seven-ton unit, IIRC)! Then, there's the problem of replacement parts > > for when, not if, things fail, not to mention the labor expertise and > > availability. It's one thing to replace discrete transistors in our > > IBM 1401, but, it's quite another to desolder and yank various little > > black rectangles off extremely dense circuit boards without destroying > > anything else ... and then solder in a replacement, if you can find > > one not already firmly attached to another board with another kind of > > failure. That assumes that problems can even be isolated, although at > > least more modern systems tend to have self-diagnostic capabilities, > > at least above a certain level of functionality, or lack thereof. > > > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 3:26 AM Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > That is a behemoth!! > > > > > > Did you ger that huge powerforming thingy that goes with it? > > > > > > Are you crazy enough to atempt a power-up? > > > > > > /P > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 07, 2018 at 09:55:07PM -0500, Evan Koblentz via cctalk > wrote: > > > > The VCF museum took delivery of a VAX 9440 today. > > > > > > > > It arrived in two 28-foot trailers. Here's our forklift driver > > > > beginning to unload the first truck: > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E- > Q5xrsYXyjrZEZh92xIBhlStvvNUcRV/view > > ?usp=sharing > > > > > > > > Here's a teaser picture of the main cabinet: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bEpSMzBEeOvuDnzPQ9Npc7iYmDhjZq8c/vi > ew > > ?usp=sharing > > > > > > > > The full system is 30-40 feet long when it's all set up! It is in > > > > pristine condition and was in service at a defense contractor > > > > until a couple of months ago. > > > > > > > > Rumor has it that we arranged for another one to land in Dave > > > > McGuire's Large Scale Systems Museum collection, and a third to be > > > > with Bob Roswell's System Source collection. :) Perhaps they'll > > > > post updates too! > > > > > > > > -- > Lee Courtney > +1-650-704-3934 cell From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 10 13:42:38 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 19:42:38 +0000 Subject: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181111011929.0114d160@mail.optusnet.com.au> , Message-ID: He needs a larger pulley if going from 60 to 50 ( as a motor pulley ). It needs to be 20% bigger because the motor turns slower on 50 Hz. 6/5 to be exact. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 8:32 AM To: dwight via cctalk Subject: Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B On 11/10/18 7:55 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Typically, both the motor pulley and belt are changed as a set to keep the distance from motor to flywheel the same. > In my younger days, a friend and I ground down a motor pulley, on a 50 Hz Shugart 800, to be a 60 Hz. We used a file while the motor ran. After getting the right size, we had to file mounting holes for the motor to keep the same belt. It was not the best way but we couldn't afford a new drive and we got the drive cheap, from surplus. > If you change the flywheel, the distance will be to great to use the same belt or even close to the same belt. It may not even fit in the area allowed for the flywheel. > According to the manual, for this drive, only the motor pulley needs to be changed as there is enough adjustment to use the same belt. I was gifted a brand-new Qume 842 220V 50Hz drive many years ago. The 220V was no problem--I had a dual-primary transformer on the power supply, so it could be reconfigured as a 240V autotransformer and still have enough capability for the drive electronics. The problem was the 60Hz line frequency. Essentially, the motor turns somewhat faster, so you need a smaller motor pulley. I calculated what I needed and found a flanged toothed pulley for a timing belt that was exactly the right size. While the original motor pulley was crowned, the timing pulley worked exactly as calculated. It was not necessary to change the drive belt--the size difference was small enough that it could be swamped out by loosening the motor mounting bolts and adjusting. I still have the drive today--and it still works. --Chuck From alan at alanlee.org Sat Nov 10 14:00:14 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 15:00:14 -0500 Subject: New to System/36 In-Reply-To: References: <28b215780cfee82acde12784b7f1aa5c@alanlee.org> Message-ID: Thanks Yvan. I was hopeful when the terminal output the standard status line at the bottom with an 08 code in the lower right above the line and a blue K in the bottom center below the line - which I assumed was a keyboard not present error. I could not find the address switch anywhere on that terminal to configure it. The previous owner said it was the system console so I assumed it was already set for address 0 'somehow'. I also assumed the hard drives were bad or the load on them was corrupt when never saw any terminal output after nearly 30 minutes. First thing I should see is the numerical countdown after 4-5 minutes, correct? I have only disk 1 of SSP 3.0. When I try to start the machine using function 3/1000, it throws SRC 210F which the code-manual describes as not being able to find valid sector marks. Not sure if it's a problem with the media or the drive at this point. The machine came from a young man who didn't know much about it. He said it was his fathers and it worked last time it was in-use. But that was at least 15 years ago. It has been siting indoors for that time. So there is hope. The bearings in the hard drives sound pretty bad. But during what I assume is the normal IPL (with no terminal output), the drives are spun-down and then back up again in sequence about 1-2 minutes in. I can also hear the heads engage and vigorously move about a minute past that for a while - which I assume is the IPL trying to load the CPU kernels - but I obviously never get to the IPL sign-on. -Alan H. On 2018-11-10 14:44, Yvan Janssens wrote: > You will need the keyboard. Those terminals usually don't come up without it. Good news tho if the keyboard has been nicked, the protocol is compatible-ish with PS/2. I have successfully used $generic_ps2_keyboard with the right plug for it. Make sure to not hit the Windows key (or any other 'new' keys) - you'll lock up the terminal's firmware. > > You will also have to configure the terminal to use address 0 - Twinax busses have an address range of 0-7 and you need bus 0, address 0 for the console. > > Generally speaking, bringing up the system is similar to bringing up early AS/400s. > > /y > > On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 at 19:59, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > >> Just picked up an IBM System/36 5362 last night. It is in pretty good >> physical condition with just a few minor scratches - other than needing >> a thorough cleaning. It has 2 60 MB hard disks in the unit. Not sure >> of the RAM capacity. Missing the the mode hard key. >> >> A few of us tried to get it running tonight. It came with a 3179 >> twin-ax terminal but no keyboard. We connected the terminal via a >> twinax cable direct from port 0 to the terminated Y adapter on the >> terminal. Never got any output on the terminal at any time other than >> the fairly empty status line. The S/36 front panel console light did >> illuminate after we connected the terminal. The key was locked to >> Normal but we were able to by-pass it with a jumper to get it into >> Service mode. The media that came with it only had disk 1 of an SSP >> release and we could not get that to IPL from floppy (mode 3 / panel >> 1000). It stepped the head motor forward and back a couple times, >> engaged the head, then immediately threw an error code. >> >> Any idea where I can get an SSP release for the S/36 5362 and how to >> write it to 8" floppies? Also where I might find a keyboard for the >> terminal and what can be done if anything to gauge the health of the >> hard drives? >> >> -Alan H. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 14:05:46 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 20:05:46 +0000 Subject: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: References: <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181111011929.0114d160@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 7:42 PM dwight via cctalk wrote: > > He needs a larger pulley if going from 60 to 50 ( as a motor pulley ). It needs to be 20% bigger because the motor turns slower on 50 Hz. 6/5 to be exact. I like the way Tektronix handled this issue in the 8560 (service manual on Bitsavers). They produced a 60Hz supply by chopping rectified and smoothed mains, thus the incoming mains frequency does not matter. An 8560 will work in the States or in Europe with no pulley changes. -tony > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 10 14:27:25 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 12:27:25 -0800 Subject: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181111011929.0114d160@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 11/10/18 11:42 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > He needs a larger pulley if going from 60 to 50 ( as a motor pulley ). It needs to be 20% bigger because the motor turns slower on 50 Hz. 6/5 to be exact. > Dwight No argument there--but the size increment is pretty small. Consider that a typical motor pulley is about 19 mm in diameter, so a 20% increase would be only about 23 mm. One could also take Tony's approach and simply cobble up a crystal-controlled 60Hz source for the motor. Shouldn't be too difficult--I suspect that the motor doesn't draw more than about 30W. If you had an excess of 12VDC, you could possibly use an inexpensive inverter to do the job. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 10 14:33:29 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 12:33:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181111011929.0114d160@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: >> He needs a larger pulley if going from 60 to 50 ( as a motor pulley ). >> It needs to be 20% bigger because the motor turns slower on 50 Hz. 6/5 >> to be exact. On Sat, 10 Nov 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > No argument there--but the size increment is pretty small. Consider > that a typical motor pulley is about 19 mm in diameter, so a 20% > increase would be only about 23 mm. Depending on the drive, WHICH pulley should be changed? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 10 14:38:14 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 12:38:14 -0800 Subject: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181111011929.0114d160@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 11/10/18 12:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> He needs a larger pulley if going from 60 to 50 ( as a motor pulley >>> ). It needs to be 20% bigger because the motor turns slower on 50 Hz. >>> 6/5 to be exact. > On Sat, 10 Nov 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> No argument there--but the size increment is pretty small.? Consider >> that a typical motor pulley is about 19 mm in diameter, so a 20% >> increase would be only about 23 mm. > > Depending on the drive, WHICH pulley should be changed? The motor drive pulley is the easiest. You might even find a ready-made one in an engineering findings catalog. Alternatively, consider this YT video for a DIY frequency changer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEiUt56elAw --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 15:17:45 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 15:17:45 -0600 Subject: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? In-Reply-To: References: <285DCB5D-F578-4FB1-92D2-CCAC169B22D7@gmail.com> <48B3D064-3E33-4CAF-918D-AC7F8B84FE28@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 12:24 AM Ethan via cctalk wrote: > I tried to watch it on the drive home from work today. Youtube video had a > strike (takedown) so it's gone. The web site had IP geolocation and > rejected my phone. So looks like it's Canada only. Discovery is working a deal for a US release soon. Maybe early next year. > So most people will need to use a VPN to get to the Discovery site from a > .ca IP, or maybe it's nerdy enough that it will show up via various > underground conduits of content. I am going to ping a friend tomorrow who > has a 500TB TV rig and see if he has heard of it. ^^ storage envy. Makes my 12.5TB array at home feel cramped and confining. 500TB online....I'd scan every document at 600 dpi color and save the TIFs :) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 10 18:46:28 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 00:46:28 +0000 Subject: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181111011929.0114d160@mail.optusnet.com.au> , Message-ID: If the pulley diameter was 19.0mm, the new pulley would be exactly 22.8mm. It is a simple ratio problem. The motors rotation is synchronous to the line frequency. It turns 50/60 too slow. To speed it up is 6/5. The speed of the belt is proportional to the radius of the pulleys. If it was a crowned belt, a fine tune can be done with the tension of the belt. A tighter belt will run a little slower because most of it rides lower on the pulley. The tension on the belt is the same everywhere, not counting bearing and drag on the disk. This means the effective rate is determined, mainly, by the where the belt rides on the pulley. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 12:38 PM To: Fred Cisin via cctalk Subject: Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B On 11/10/18 12:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> He needs a larger pulley if going from 60 to 50 ( as a motor pulley >>> ). It needs to be 20% bigger because the motor turns slower on 50 Hz. >>> 6/5 to be exact. > On Sat, 10 Nov 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> No argument there--but the size increment is pretty small. Consider >> that a typical motor pulley is about 19 mm in diameter, so a 20% >> increase would be only about 23 mm. > > Depending on the drive, WHICH pulley should be changed? The motor drive pulley is the easiest. You might even find a ready-made one in an engineering findings catalog. Alternatively, consider this YT video for a DIY frequency changer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEiUt56elAw --Chuck From alan at alanlee.org Sat Nov 10 20:59:34 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 21:59:34 -0500 Subject: New to System/36 In-Reply-To: References: <28b215780cfee82acde12784b7f1aa5c@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <54c301e4fe4d4c9148aef73ce37f7435@alanlee.org> Good news. At our AHCS club meeting today, someone there just happened to have a keyboard with the correct code page and connector for my terminal. Yvan was correct in that the terminal doesn't operate at all without one. With the keyboard, everything came alive. The machine IPL'd just fine into a login screen after about 8 minutes. We were able to get into the disk editor, recover the username and password, and log-on successfully. So I apparently do have a working set of 1x 30 MB and 1x 60 MB hard disks. Password and data security was not active and there were only 3 total users. The CMAS accounting software menu or library - default for the other users - was not found. I'm assuming it was maybe deleted when the machine was taken out of service. But the system is functional. The BASIC, FORTRAN, and COBOL languages were not installed. But we did try writing a Hello World program in RPG II but it failed to compile correctly! It was fun trying. The default line level editor was about the worst thing I've ever used in 40 years of pounding on a keyboard - and I've seen a lot of bad in that time. I still would like to get a set (or two) of later release SSP disks as as well as archive and reimage some of the application software I have. I'll email Mcguire. But if anyone else has experience in imaging IBM mid-range floppies, I'd love to get some more advice. Thanks, Alan H. On 2018-11-10 15:00, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > Thanks Yvan. I was hopeful when the terminal output the standard > status > line at the bottom with an 08 code in the lower right above the line > and > a blue K in the bottom center below the line - which I assumed was a > keyboard not present error. I could not find the address switch > anywhere on that terminal to configure it. The previous owner said it > was the system console so I assumed it was already set for address 0 > 'somehow'. > > I also assumed the hard drives were bad or the load on them was corrupt > when never saw any terminal output after nearly 30 minutes. First > thing > I should see is the numerical countdown after 4-5 minutes, correct? > > I have only disk 1 of SSP 3.0. When I try to start the machine using > function 3/1000, it throws SRC 210F which the code-manual describes as > not being able to find valid sector marks. Not sure if it's a problem > with the media or the drive at this point. > > The machine came from a young man who didn't know much about it. He > said it was his fathers and it worked last time it was in-use. But > that > was at least 15 years ago. It has been siting indoors for that time. > So there is hope. The bearings in the hard drives sound pretty bad. > But during what I assume is the normal IPL (with no terminal output), > the drives are spun-down and then back up again in sequence about 1-2 > minutes in. I can also hear the heads engage and vigorously move about > a minute past that for a while - which I assume is the IPL trying to > load the CPU kernels - but I obviously never get to the IPL sign-on. > > -Alan H. > > On 2018-11-10 14:44, Yvan Janssens wrote: > >> You will need the keyboard. Those terminals usually don't come up >> without it. Good news tho if the keyboard has been nicked, the >> protocol is compatible-ish with PS/2. I have successfully used >> $generic_ps2_keyboard with the right plug for it. Make sure to not hit >> the Windows key (or any other 'new' keys) - you'll lock up the >> terminal's firmware. >> >> You will also have to configure the terminal to use address 0 - Twinax >> busses have an address range of 0-7 and you need bus 0, address 0 for >> the console. >> >> Generally speaking, bringing up the system is similar to bringing up >> early AS/400s. >> >> /y >> >> On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 at 19:59, alan--- via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> Just picked up an IBM System/36 5362 last night. It is in pretty >>> good >>> physical condition with just a few minor scratches - other than >>> needing >>> a thorough cleaning. It has 2 60 MB hard disks in the unit. Not >>> sure >>> of the RAM capacity. Missing the the mode hard key. >>> >>> A few of us tried to get it running tonight. It came with a 3179 >>> twin-ax terminal but no keyboard. We connected the terminal via a >>> twinax cable direct from port 0 to the terminated Y adapter on the >>> terminal. Never got any output on the terminal at any time other >>> than >>> the fairly empty status line. The S/36 front panel console light did >>> illuminate after we connected the terminal. The key was locked to >>> Normal but we were able to by-pass it with a jumper to get it into >>> Service mode. The media that came with it only had disk 1 of an SSP >>> release and we could not get that to IPL from floppy (mode 3 / panel >>> 1000). It stepped the head motor forward and back a couple times, >>> engaged the head, then immediately threw an error code. >>> >>> Any idea where I can get an SSP release for the S/36 5362 and how to >>> write it to 8" floppies? Also where I might find a keyboard for the >>> terminal and what can be done if anything to gauge the health of the >>> hard drives? >>> >>> -Alan H. From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun Nov 11 00:47:40 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 22:47:40 -0800 Subject: Got a Rainbow 100 and ... Message-ID: Today I picked up a Rainbow 100. The seller bought it new for a specific need and he says that it had been sitting in his barn since '84. It looks like it was a dry barn because things look pretty clean for the most part aside from a thick layer of dust on everything. What I got was the system unit, a VR201 monitor, a keyboard, a vertical deskside stand for the system unit, and a LQP02 daisy wheel printer. I also got the MS-DOS and CP/M doc and software slip cover boxes. The CP/M disk box is still sealed and the CP/M docs are still in shrink wrap. The specific need that the seller bought it for involved MS-DOS, not CP/M. I last saw a Rainbow 100 in college around the time that the seller stopped using this system, so I am getting familiar with it now. I haven't powered anything on yet. Problems so far - 1. The VR201 monitor is leaking a brown fluid. Doing a little searching, I found some stuff posted here a couple years ago about it being common for them to leak PVA compound, so I am presuming what is what I am seeing. Right now I am looking for something that describes how to open the case up to clean the stuff up. If someone can give me some pointers to some docs/write-ups and save me some time, that would be great. 2. The belt that moves the print head is dried out and looks like, if the motor put any load on the belt, it will fail. Is any kind of replacement available? Thanks for any help that can be provided. alan From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 00:51:56 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 06:51:56 +0000 Subject: Got a Rainbow 100 and ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 6:47 AM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > What I got was the system unit, a VR201 monitor, a keyboard, a vertical > deskside stand for the system unit, and a LQP02 daisy wheel printer. I > also got the MS-DOS and CP/M doc and software slip cover boxes. The CP/M > disk box is still sealed and the CP/M docs are still in shrink wrap. The > specific need that the seller bought it for involved MS-DOS, not CP/M. Does it have any of the optional expansion boards (hard disk controller, RAM, graphics) in it? > > 1. The VR201 monitor is leaking a brown fluid. Doing a little searching, > I found some stuff posted here a couple years ago about it being common > for them to leak PVA compound, so I am presuming what is what I am > seeing. Right now I am looking for something that describes how to open > the case up to clean the stuff up. If someone can give me some pointers > to some docs/write-ups and save me some time, that would be great. The first thing to do is to fully extend the little 'leg'. Put the monitor the normal way up, press the button on the side(near the bottom) and lift it so the leg slides out. Then, monitor screen-down. Prise (pry?) the circular cap off on the back near the connectors. Undo the screw thus exposed. The case then slides off. -tony From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun Nov 11 00:56:45 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 22:56:45 -0800 Subject: Got a Rainbow 100 and ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/10/18 10:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 6:47 AM Alan Perry via cctalk > wrote: > >> What I got was the system unit, a VR201 monitor, a keyboard, a vertical >> deskside stand for the system unit, and a LQP02 daisy wheel printer. I >> also got the MS-DOS and CP/M doc and software slip cover boxes. The CP/M >> disk box is still sealed and the CP/M docs are still in shrink wrap. The >> specific need that the seller bought it for involved MS-DOS, not CP/M. > > Does it have any of the optional expansion boards (hard disk controller, > RAM, graphics) in it? Right now I am looking up how to open up the system unit and see what's inside. > >> 1. The VR201 monitor is leaking a brown fluid. Doing a little searching, >> I found some stuff posted here a couple years ago about it being common >> for them to leak PVA compound, so I am presuming what is what I am >> seeing. Right now I am looking for something that describes how to open >> the case up to clean the stuff up. If someone can give me some pointers >> to some docs/write-ups and save me some time, that would be great. > The first thing to do is to fully extend the little 'leg'. Put the > monitor the normal > way up, press the button on the side(near the bottom) and lift it so > the leg slides > out. > > Then, monitor screen-down. Prise (pry?) the circular cap off on the > back near the > connectors. Undo the screw thus exposed. The case then slides off. Thanks! alan > > -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 01:00:46 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 07:00:46 +0000 Subject: Got a Rainbow 100 and ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 6:56 AM Alan Perry wrote: > > > > On 11/10/18 10:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 6:47 AM Alan Perry via cctalk > > wrote: > > > >> What I got was the system unit, a VR201 monitor, a keyboard, a vertical > >> deskside stand for the system unit, and a LQP02 daisy wheel printer. I > >> also got the MS-DOS and CP/M doc and software slip cover boxes. The CP/M > >> disk box is still sealed and the CP/M docs are still in shrink wrap. The > >> specific need that the seller bought it for involved MS-DOS, not CP/M. > > > > Does it have any of the optional expansion boards (hard disk controller, > > RAM, graphics) in it? > > Right now I am looking up how to open up the system unit and see what's > inside. There's a catch on each side under the 'step'. Release those and the cover comes off. Unplug the drive and power cables from the main PCB assembly (at the rear right), undo the thumbscrews on the back and the PCB assembly slides out. -tony From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun Nov 11 01:41:40 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 23:41:40 -0800 Subject: Got a Rainbow 100 and ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4de9660c-7186-65e2-f55d-52bbfca09871@snowmoose.com> On 11/10/18 11:00 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 6:56 AM Alan Perry wrote: >> >> >> On 11/10/18 10:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 6:47 AM Alan Perry via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>>> What I got was the system unit, a VR201 monitor, a keyboard, a vertical >>>> deskside stand for the system unit, and a LQP02 daisy wheel printer. I >>>> also got the MS-DOS and CP/M doc and software slip cover boxes. The CP/M >>>> disk box is still sealed and the CP/M docs are still in shrink wrap. The >>>> specific need that the seller bought it for involved MS-DOS, not CP/M. >>> Does it have any of the optional expansion boards (hard disk controller, >>> RAM, graphics) in it? >> Right now I am looking up how to open up the system unit and see what's >> inside. > There's a catch on each side under the 'step'. Release those and the > cover comes off. Unplug the drive and power cables from the main > PCB assembly (at the rear right), undo the thumbscrews on the back > and the PCB assembly slides out. Nice. It is clean on the inside. A very thin coating of dust. As far as the hardware itself ... There is nothing in the left-side drive bay, just the dual floppy drive in the right-side bay. There is a memory expansion board (how can one determine its size?) and the board that the floppy drive connects to (is it all floppy controller?). That's it. Is there anything that I should check on it before I connect it to power? alan > > -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 04:24:45 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 10:24:45 +0000 Subject: Got a Rainbow 100 and ... In-Reply-To: <4de9660c-7186-65e2-f55d-52bbfca09871@snowmoose.com> References: <4de9660c-7186-65e2-f55d-52bbfca09871@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 7:41 AM Alan Perry wrote: > > > > On 11/10/18 11:00 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 6:56 AM Alan Perry wrote: > >> > >> > >> On 11/10/18 10:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 6:47 AM Alan Perry via cctalk > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> What I got was the system unit, a VR201 monitor, a keyboard, a vertical > >>>> deskside stand for the system unit, and a LQP02 daisy wheel printer. I > >>>> also got the MS-DOS and CP/M doc and software slip cover boxes. The CP/M > >>>> disk box is still sealed and the CP/M docs are still in shrink wrap. The > >>>> specific need that the seller bought it for involved MS-DOS, not CP/M. > >>> Does it have any of the optional expansion boards (hard disk controller, > >>> RAM, graphics) in it? > >> Right now I am looking up how to open up the system unit and see what's > >> inside. > > There's a catch on each side under the 'step'. Release those and the > > cover comes off. Unplug the drive and power cables from the main > > PCB assembly (at the rear right), undo the thumbscrews on the back > > and the PCB assembly slides out. > Nice. Yes, this series of machines (Rainbow, DECmate II, Pro300) can be dismantled into the FRUs without using tools. Not that that is a great advantage for us now, since once you've taken it apart you most likely need a soldering iron, 'scope, logic analyser, etc to fix it. > > It is clean on the inside. A very thin coating of dust. > > As far as the hardware itself ... > > There is nothing in the left-side drive bay, just the dual floppy drive > in the right-side bay. > > There is a memory expansion board (how can one determine its size?) and I seem to remember there are at least 2 versions of the RAM card. The older one doesn't have a DIP switch on it and can only take 64K DRAMs. I've only ever seen it with a full set of RAMs soldered in, giving an extra 192K (3 banks of RAM). The later one has a 4-way DIP switch on it. Each bank of RAMs (9 chips each) can either be 64K or 256K. You have to set the switch appropriately (I think positions 1-3 are the size of each of the 3 banks of RAM, position 4 enables/ disables parity checking).. If you have that one, it's probably easiest to see what RAMs are installed. > the board that the floppy drive connects to (is it all floppy controller?). Yes. A lot of it is the data separator. > > That's it. > > Is there anything that I should check on it before I connect it to power? > Depends on how lucky you feel. I would always test the PSU on a dummy load before connecting the boards and drive. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 11 09:39:15 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 07:39:15 -0800 Subject: New to System/36 In-Reply-To: <54c301e4fe4d4c9148aef73ce37f7435@alanlee.org> References: <28b215780cfee82acde12784b7f1aa5c@alanlee.org> <54c301e4fe4d4c9148aef73ce37f7435@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <67736fa4-d9c1-a36c-f544-eeae256a63be@bitsavers.org> On 11/10/18 6:59 PM, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > The BASIC, FORTRAN, and COBOL languages were not installed. Languages are difficult to find. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 11 12:32:15 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 18:32:15 -0000 Subject: Another IC I Can't Identify Message-ID: <021b01d479ec$df4ec070$9dec4150$@ntlworld.com> I am still working on the causes of a Reset on my Pro 350. One 8-pin DIP chip that I have traced to is marked as follows: 9643TC-B1 F 8313 KOREA It is very close to the F-11 chips at the bottom left and marked E135 in this picture https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/system-board-labelled.jpg Can anyone tell me what this is? Thanks Rob From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 12:40:36 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 18:40:36 +0000 Subject: Another IC I Can't Identify In-Reply-To: <021b01d479ec$df4ec070$9dec4150$@ntlworld.com> References: <021b01d479ec$df4ec070$9dec4150$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 6:32 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I am still working on the causes of a Reset on my Pro 350. One 8-pin DIP > chip that I have traced to is marked as follows: > > > > 9643TC-B1 > > F 8313 > > KOREA > > > > It is very close to the F-11 chips at the bottom left and marked E135 in > this picture > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/system-board-labelled.jpg How about a Fairchild 9643TC dual TTL-MOS level shifter? I found a datasheet with Google. The pinout seems to be : 1 : Input A 2 : Enable Input 3 : Input B 4 : Ground 5 : Output B 6 : Vcc2 (Output stage Vcc) 7 : Output A 8 : Vcc1 (Input stage Vcc, normally +5V) -tony From phil at ultimate.com Sun Nov 11 12:40:58 2018 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 13:40:58 -0500 Subject: Another IC I Can't Identify In-Reply-To: <021b01d479ec$df4ec070$9dec4150$@ntlworld.com> References: <021b01d479ec$df4ec070$9dec4150$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <201811111840.wABIew7N034454@ultimate.com> > 9643TC-B1 http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/components/fairchild/_dataBooks/1978_Fairchild_Full_Line_Condensed_Catalog.pdf pdf p.219 Dual TTL to CCD/MOS Drvr Pinout? http://ic72.com/pdf_file/d/161010.pdf From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 11 13:14:48 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 11:14:48 -0800 Subject: Sun doc: "Writing Device Drivers for the Sun Workstation" Message-ID: <4ffc8eeb-82a6-54e9-6707-7233b0c5f218@sydex.com> I discovered this one (Document 800-1304-05, 19 September 1986 Still in shirnk-wrap, so pristine. I offered it to Al, but got no response. FFS USA --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 11 13:52:31 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:52:31 -0000 Subject: Another IC I Can't Identify In-Reply-To: References: <021b01d479ec$df4ec070$9dec4150$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <022001d479f8$152dcb40$3f8961c0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com] > Sent: 11 November 2018 18:41 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Jarratt RMA ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Another IC I Can't Identify > > On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 6:32 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I am still working on the causes of a Reset on my Pro 350. One 8-pin > > DIP chip that I have traced to is marked as follows: > > > > > > > > 9643TC-B1 > > > > F 8313 > > > > KOREA > > > > > > > > It is very close to the F-11 chips at the bottom left and marked E135 > > in this picture > > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/system-board-labelled.jpg > > How about a Fairchild 9643TC dual TTL-MOS level shifter? > > I found a datasheet with Google. The pinout seems to be : > 1 : Input A > 2 : Enable Input > 3 : Input B > 4 : Ground > 5 : Output B > 6 : Vcc2 (Output stage Vcc) > 7 : Output A > 8 : Vcc1 (Input stage Vcc, normally +5V) > Thanks for all the replies. If that is indeed what it is, then I still have not been able to find the source of one of the signals that seems to be causing the Reset, every pin I have found so far is an input, I have not found it connected to the output of anything yet :-( Regards Rob From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Nov 11 14:07:16 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 12:07:16 -0800 Subject: Another IC I Can't Identify In-Reply-To: <022001d479f8$152dcb40$3f8961c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <021b01d479ec$df4ec070$9dec4150$@ntlworld.com> <022001d479f8$152dcb40$3f8961c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 2018-Nov-11, at 11:52 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for all the replies. If that is indeed what it is, then I still have not been able to find the source of one of the signals that seems to be causing the Reset, every pin I have found so far is an input, I have not found it connected to the output of anything yet :-( Have you tried the reverse? : follow an origin that you know should be controlling reset, such as the power-on indication from the PS, and see if you can trace it to the CPU. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 11 15:32:43 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 21:32:43 -0000 Subject: Another IC I Can't Identify In-Reply-To: References: <021b01d479ec$df4ec070$9dec4150$@ntlworld.com> <022001d479f8$152dcb40$3f8961c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <022601d47a06$153e64b0$3fbb2e10$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent > Hilpert via cctalk > Sent: 11 November 2018 20:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Another IC I Can't Identify > > On 2018-Nov-11, at 11:52 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > Thanks for all the replies. If that is indeed what it is, then I still have not > been able to find the source of one of the signals that seems to be causing > the Reset, every pin I have found so far is an input, I have not found it > connected to the output of anything yet :-( > > > Have you tried the reverse? : follow an origin that you know should be > controlling reset, such as the power-on indication from the PS, and see if you > can trace it to the CPU.= I have already found that source and it all looks OK. I think I have identified another input to a NOR gate that is high and causing the reset, but I can't find where it comes from. Regards Rob From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Nov 11 15:50:04 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 13:50:04 -0800 Subject: Another IC I Can't Identify In-Reply-To: <022601d47a06$153e64b0$3fbb2e10$@ntlworld.com> References: <021b01d479ec$df4ec070$9dec4150$@ntlworld.com> <022001d479f8$152dcb40$3f8961c0$@ntlworld.com> <022601d47a06$153e64b0$3fbb2e10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3B30371A-BA3D-4C6C-B926-CA727DC755C7@shaw.ca> On 2018-Nov-11, at 1:32 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent >> Hilpert via cctalk >> >> On 2018-Nov-11, at 11:52 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >>> Thanks for all the replies. If that is indeed what it is, then I still > have not >> been able to find the source of one of the signals that seems to be > causing >> the Reset, every pin I have found so far is an input, I have not found it >> connected to the output of anything yet :-( >> >> >> Have you tried the reverse? : follow an origin that you know should be >> controlling reset, such as the power-on indication from the PS, and see if > you >> can trace it to the CPU.= > > I have already found that source and it all looks OK. I think I have > identified another input to a NOR gate that is high and causing the reset, > but I can't find where it comes from. > Perhaps I'm not clear on what you're saying, I was taking you as meaning you hadn't found a source driving the reset line. While you've found a PWR-OK signal and it looks good, have you found how it connects to the reset line? Reset-line arrangements on small machines aren't usually that complicated. (Usually the power-on signal source is a series RC combination (often with additional discretes such as diodes) between a power-bus and ground). Perhaps put up an image of the schematic you have so far. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 11 16:04:41 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 22:04:41 -0000 Subject: Another IC I Can't Identify In-Reply-To: <3B30371A-BA3D-4C6C-B926-CA727DC755C7@shaw.ca> References: <021b01d479ec$df4ec070$9dec4150$@ntlworld.com> <022001d479f8$152dcb40$3f8961c0$@ntlworld.com> <022601d47a06$153e64b0$3fbb2e10$@ntlworld.com> <3B30371A-BA3D-4C6C-B926-CA727DC755C7@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <022701d47a0a$8c25b4d0$a4711e70$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent > Hilpert via cctalk > Sent: 11 November 2018 21:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Another IC I Can't Identify > > On 2018-Nov-11, at 1:32 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >> Brent Hilpert via cctalk > >> > >> On 2018-Nov-11, at 11:52 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > >>> Thanks for all the replies. If that is indeed what it is, then I > >>> still > > have not > >> been able to find the source of one of the signals that seems to be > > causing > >> the Reset, every pin I have found so far is an input, I have not > >> found it connected to the output of anything yet :-( > >> > >> > >> Have you tried the reverse? : follow an origin that you know should > >> be controlling reset, such as the power-on indication from the PS, > >> and see if > > you > >> can trace it to the CPU.= > > > > I have already found that source and it all looks OK. I think I have > > identified another input to a NOR gate that is high and causing the > > reset, but I can't find where it comes from. > > > > Perhaps I'm not clear on what you're saying, I was taking you as meaning you > hadn't found a source driving the reset line. > While you've found a PWR-OK signal and it looks good, have you found how > it connects to the reset line? > > Reset-line arrangements on small machines aren't usually that complicated. > (Usually the power-on signal source is a series RC combination (often with > additional discretes such as diodes) between a power-bus and ground). > > Perhaps put up an image of the schematic you have so far. I have posted an image here: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/system-board.png At the far right you will see a "To F11 Reset", my understanding is that this is active High. I have determined that the D input on E141 is always high. The CLR input on E141 is periodically set, thus causing a pulsing high output on E141, leading to a pulsing Reset on the F11 chipset. Thanks Rob From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 21:31:13 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:31:13 -0700 Subject: VAX 9440 In-Reply-To: References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 8:55 AM Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > It's one thing to replace discrete transistors in our IBM > 1401, but, it's quite another to desolder and yank various little black > rectangles off extremely dense circuit boards without destroying anything > else ... and then solder in a replacement, Actually that's just as easy as the discrete transistors. You just need a vacuum desoldering station. I use a Hakko 472D-01, which is great, but unfortunately discontinued. Hakko's replacement, the FR410-03, is even better, but unfortunately is twice as expensive (around $950). Some people are satisfied with the handheld vacuum desoldering irons, like the Hakko 808 (now replaced by Hakko FR-301). They're OK for some small jobs, but the handpiece is bulky and heavy, so it's difficult if you have a lot of desoldering to do, or the density is high so you need careful positioning. The pencil-style handpiece of the 472D-01 or FR410-03 is smaller and much lighter. There are cheap no-name Chinese desoldering stations to be found online. I haven't tried them, but I've generally been dissatisfied with Chinese no-name soldering stations. if you can find one not already > firmly attached to another board with another kind of failure. > Actually that's ideal, because parting out a non-working board isn't destroying anything useful, and a vacuum desoldering station allows the ICs to be removed without damaging them. However, for rare parts it's more common to not have any other board with that part, working or otherwise. From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Nov 11 23:36:14 2018 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 00:36:14 -0500 Subject: DEC Alpha Bug Check Crash In-Reply-To: <01QZH84NI4DO0016I4@beyondthepale.ie> References: <2d9f2543-0611-29d7-6514-37e7d87e4aea@comcast.net> <5BE5CAF0.3080400@pico-systems.com> <01QZH84NI4DO0016I4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 11/10/2018 6:17 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> >> It maybe that the DECW$Config.exe image is bad, since that is where >> the bugcheck always occurs.? Although this is confusing because it >> did successfully boot in console mode previously. >> > > While it's not impossible, I doubt the problem is in the DECW$Config.exe > image.? I think it is more likely to be in a device driver image which > is exercised because of an I/O done by DECW$Config.exe.? It may be that > the bugcheck always happens when DECW$Config.exe is running because > DECW$Config.exe is the first thing to touch the I/O device in question. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. This is most likely correct.? I re-installed the OS on a different SD card/SCSI2SD device and got a successful graphics boot up.? Do SD cards drop bits or go bad? I was happy to get it running again, I was afraid it was a hardware issue.? The one spare 3000-300 I have didn't start up at all. Doug From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Nov 12 02:33:02 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 09:33:02 +0100 (CET) Subject: DEC Alpha Bug Check Crash In-Reply-To: References: <2d9f2543-0611-29d7-6514-37e7d87e4aea@comcast.net> <5BE5CAF0.3080400@pico-systems.com> <01QZH84NI4DO0016I4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2018, Douglas Taylor wrote: > This is most likely correct.? I re-installed the OS on a different SD > card/SCSI2SD device and got a successful graphics boot up.? Do SD cards drop > bits or go bad? Yes, very easily. That is why I absolutely dislike solutions based on SD cards (or on any kind of flash memory cards). Christian From tingox at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 06:28:50 2018 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 13:28:50 +0100 Subject: DEC Alpha Bug Check Crash In-Reply-To: References: <2d9f2543-0611-29d7-6514-37e7d87e4aea@comcast.net> <5BE5CAF0.3080400@pico-systems.com> <01QZH84NI4DO0016I4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 9:33 AM Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > Yes, very easily. That is why I absolutely dislike solutions based on SD > cards (or on any kind of flash memory cards). > At least it is quite easy to make (image-based) backups of SD-cards, which might be helpful if the system you are using it in doesn't have a working backup solution. As always: make backups, and test that they work. Every storage medium breaks down sooner or later. HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From ethan at 757.org Mon Nov 12 08:34:54 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 09:34:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX 9440 In-Reply-To: References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > > Some people are satisfied with the handheld vacuum desoldering irons, like > the Hakko 808 (now replaced by Hakko FR-301). They're OK for some small I love my 808. Have used it heavily to re-cap arcade monitor chassis (15+) and all kinds of other circuit boards. Of course it doesn't work well when the component lead is super tight to the plate through hole, but that is an issue for wick as well. Friend swears by Pace stations. Recently picked up some Chinese soldering tweezers to aid in SMD capcitor replacement. So far not in love with them. Of course, all the SMD caps I want to remove have leaked electrolyte and the solder doesn't melt right. Hot air setup is the next thing. From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Nov 12 09:24:29 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 15:24:29 +0000 Subject: VAX 9440 In-Reply-To: References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> , Message-ID: <1542036274281.2316@w2hx.com> plus one for the hakko 808. Love it! Never leave home without it! ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ethan via cctalk Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 9:34 AM To: Eric Smith; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VAX 9440 > > Some people are satisfied with the handheld vacuum desoldering irons, like > the Hakko 808 (now replaced by Hakko FR-301). They're OK for some small I love my 808. Have used it heavily to re-cap arcade monitor chassis (15+) and all kinds of other circuit boards. Of course it doesn't work well when the component lead is super tight to the plate through hole, but that is an issue for wick as well. Friend swears by Pace stations. Recently picked up some Chinese soldering tweezers to aid in SMD capcitor replacement. So far not in love with them. Of course, all the SMD caps I want to remove have leaked electrolyte and the solder doesn't melt right. Hot air setup is the next thing. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 12 10:29:46 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 08:29:46 -0800 Subject: desoldering (was Re: VAX 9440) In-Reply-To: <1542036274281.2316@w2hx.com> References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> <1542036274281.2316@w2hx.com> Message-ID: On 11/12/18 7:24 AM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Hot air setup is the next thing. > I was doing some board repair this weekend, and used a mix of Hakko 472 vacuum and hot air equipment. I was having trouble clearing the holes completely with the Hakko so I heated the board with a 1" hot air nozzle, pulled the part, then used an Edsyn Atmoscope to blow the holes clean. Cleaning the Hakko is SO much easier than a Pace (there is no glass to burn your fingers on). I'm not impressed with Weller vaccums either, though to be fair it's pretty old tech. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 12 10:35:48 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 08:35:48 -0800 Subject: Bill Godbout Message-ID: "drrt1968 at gmail.com" posted on AFC this morning that Bill died in the Camp fire in Northern California on Thursday. Has anyone else heard about this? From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Nov 12 11:22:40 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 11:22:40 -0600 Subject: DEC Alpha Bug Check Crash In-Reply-To: References: <2d9f2543-0611-29d7-6514-37e7d87e4aea@comcast.net> <5BE5CAF0.3080400@pico-systems.com> <01QZH84NI4DO0016I4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <5BE9B6E0.1030404@pico-systems.com> On 11/11/2018 11:36 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > This is most likely correct. I re-installed the OS on a > different SD card/SCSI2SD device and got a successful > graphics boot up. Do SD cards drop bits or go bad? > UGH! Yes, they can. It SHOULD cause a device parity error, but I guess some of their coverage is less than 100% perfect. But, there are LOTS of reports of bad SD cards, cards with dramatically less capacity than stated on the outside, early failure after just a few hundred writes, lots of reports of total corruption when power is dropped without warning, etc. Just read the horror stories online. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Nov 12 11:24:27 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 11:24:27 -0600 Subject: VAX 9440 In-Reply-To: References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5BE9B74B.3070808@pico-systems.com> On 11/12/2018 08:34 AM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: >> >> Some people are satisfied with the handheld vacuum >> desoldering irons, like >> the Hakko 808 (now replaced by Hakko FR-301). They're OK >> for some small > > I love my 808. Have used it heavily to re-cap arcade > monitor chassis (15+) and all kinds of other circuit > boards. Of course it doesn't work well when the component > lead is super tight to the plate through hole, but that is > an issue for wick as well. > > Friend swears by Pace stations. > Yes, I have 2 Pace desoldering stations. One at work has an internal vacuum pump, the one at home has a venturi system that requires an air compressor. But, they REALLY pull all the solder out of the hole, and when the last pin is cleared, the part just FALLS off the board. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Nov 12 11:25:19 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 11:25:19 -0600 Subject: Bill Godbout In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5BE9B77F.60306@pico-systems.com> On 11/12/2018 10:35 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > "drrt1968 at gmail.com" posted on AFC this morning that Bill died in the Camp fire in Northern California on Thursday. > Has anyone else heard about this? > > WOW! Sad news! Jon From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 11:26:32 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 12:26:32 -0500 Subject: Bill Godbout In-Reply-To: <5BE9B77F.60306@pico-systems.com> References: <5BE9B77F.60306@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: ='''''[ -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:25 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 11/12/2018 10:35 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > "drrt1968 at gmail.com" posted on AFC this morning that Bill died in the > Camp fire in Northern California on Thursday. > > Has anyone else heard about this? > > > > > WOW! Sad news! > > Jon > From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Nov 12 11:34:48 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 12:34:48 -0500 Subject: Bill Godbout In-Reply-To: <5BE9B77F.60306@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <16708fd7878-1ec6-47d@webjas-vab112.srv.aolmail.net> very? sad? ?Bill was? one of my? first? ?large purchasers? of? ?surplus? ?power cords...? a nice? ?guy? and always? paid? on time this is? ?very? sad. In a message dated 11/12/2018 10:25:25 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 11/12/2018 10:35 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > "drrt1968 at gmail.com" posted on AFC this morning that Bill died in the Camp fire in Northern California on Thursday. > Has anyone else heard about this? > > WOW! Sad news! Jon From pat at vax11.net Mon Nov 12 12:30:02 2018 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 13:30:02 -0500 Subject: DEC Alpha Bug Check Crash In-Reply-To: <5BE9B6E0.1030404@pico-systems.com> References: <2d9f2543-0611-29d7-6514-37e7d87e4aea@comcast.net> <5BE5CAF0.3080400@pico-systems.com> <01QZH84NI4DO0016I4@beyondthepale.ie> <5BE9B6E0.1030404@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:22 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/11/2018 11:36 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > > This is most likely correct. I re-installed the OS on a > > different SD card/SCSI2SD device and got a successful > > graphics boot up. Do SD cards drop bits or go bad? > > > UGH! Yes, they can. It SHOULD cause a device parity error, > but I guess some of their coverage is less than 100% You can buy "industrially rated" flash memory cards such as the "SanDisk Industrial" labelled ones, which seems to help based on my experience with SD cards in industrial controls systems at work. Absolutely avoid cheap SD cards though, they aren't usually good for more than a few re-writes in a digital camera type situation (linearly write the card, and then erase the whole thing, repeat). Things like swap files on SD/CF cards may wear them out in a couple of hours of use. Pat From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Mon Nov 12 13:06:09 2018 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 20:06:09 +0100 Subject: IP address classes vs CIDR (was Re: Reviving ARPAnet) In-Reply-To: <2a4f0f9c-6752-49bd-9f1c-295dc6e55b9c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20180118185447.9A12718C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20180118192359.43E6CA585D7@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <2a4f0f9c-6752-49bd-9f1c-295dc6e55b9c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <5c249de6221056282a6029e053a5046aad5e9bbf.camel@agj.net> m?n 2018-02-05 klockan 10:31 -0700 skrev Grant Taylor via cctalk: > On 01/18/2018 12:23 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > You all talk about Proxy ARP in the past tense for some reason. :) > > You might find it entertaining to know that I was just talking with > colleagues that are currently using Proxy ARP to solve the lack of > subnet problem at 40 Gbps line rate. > > It's the same old problem, but this time it's how to sub-divide a > /26 > into a /27 and two /28s without the router for the /26 being re- > configured. > > So Proxy ARP FAR from dead. hostapd in some configurations does that ie proxies arp on the behalf of a phone for example. virtual switches can i believe be configured in a proxy arp configuration ie the host's OS proxies arp request from a switch/router. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 12 14:04:31 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 15:04:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels Message-ID: <20181112200431.1CA6018C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, anyone happen to know the font used in DEC's indicator panels: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html or, at least, a very close match? For mockups we're doing, Dave B is using 'DejaVu Sans', but that's not a really close match: the vertical bars are wider than in the DEC font, where the verticals and horizontals are the same width. It would be nice to have a closer match when we go to turn out replicas. (We're just about settled on the format for the QSIC RKV11-F/RPV11-D panels.) Noel From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 14:39:58 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 14:39:58 -0600 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <20181112200431.1CA6018C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181112200431.1CA6018C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 2:04 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > So, anyone happen to know the font used in DEC's indicator panels: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html > > or, at least, a very close match? According to my notes, for the VCFMW8 shirts (http://vcfmw.org/shirts/vcfmw8_front.png) I used DIN Next Pro Rounded Medium for the panel text, although the font I had in my work directory is "DIN 1451 Fette Breitschrift 1936". That is probably the font next to the knob on the right and the bit numbers above the switches. The text inside the orange/yellow boxes (SRS) may well be Helvetica. There is no reason to think these are the original DEC panel fonts, just what I found to be "close enough" at the time. -j From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 12 14:49:42 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 15:49:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels Message-ID: <20181112204942.06DDD18C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > We're just about settled on the format for the QSIC RKV11-F/RPV11-D > panels. PS: Here's the latest rev of our thinking: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/inlay-rk11-f3.pdf if anyone has any comments. (Since the format is entirely set by the FPGA, it's 'easy' to tweak it, if there's a desirable improvement.) It's not the same as the old DEC RK11-B/RK11-C or RP11-C inlays, in part because we want to be able to show the address, and on a QBUS machine, that's 22 bits. Also, many of the fields don't apply to the QSIC (e.g. internal drive signals, 36-bit data buffer on the RP11, etc); we figured it would be better to recycle those lights for something useful (e.g. the address and word count). Noel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Nov 12 14:54:04 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 15:54:04 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <20181112200431.1CA6018C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181112200431.1CA6018C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2018-11-12 3:04 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So, anyone happen to know the font used in DEC's indicator panels: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html > > or, at least, a very close match? > > For mockups we're doing, Dave B is using 'DejaVu Sans', but that's not a > really close match: the vertical bars are wider than in the DEC font, where > the verticals and horizontals are the same width. > > It would be nice to have a closer match when we go to turn out replicas. > (We're just about settled on the format for the QSIC RKV11-F/RPV11-D panels.) > > Noel > > I took a quick look... None of them are DIN, for what it's worth. It's somewhat close to Akzidenz Grotesk[1] - around Medium weight. The TC08 looks slightly compressed horizontally, so you might need to play with weights and transformations and letter spacing a little bit to match actual panels. To narrow it down farther I think we would need much better quality images. --Toby [1] https://www.bertholdtypes.com/font/akzidenz-grotesk/proplus/ From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Nov 12 15:02:38 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 13:02:38 -0800 Subject: Another IC I Can't Identify In-Reply-To: <022701d47a0a$8c25b4d0$a4711e70$@ntlworld.com> References: <021b01d479ec$df4ec070$9dec4150$@ntlworld.com> <022001d479f8$152dcb40$3f8961c0$@ntlworld.com> <022601d47a06$153e64b0$3fbb2e10$@ntlworld.com> <3B30371A-BA3D-4C6C-B926-CA727DC755C7@shaw.ca> <022701d47a0a$8c25b4d0$a4711e70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4A8FB08D-98A2-49E9-977A-A13955EFD243@shaw.ca> On 2018-Nov-11, at 2:04 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent >> Hilpert via cctalk >> Sent: 11 November 2018 21:50 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Another IC I Can't Identify >> >> On 2018-Nov-11, at 1:32 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Brent Hilpert via cctalk >>>> >>>> On 2018-Nov-11, at 11:52 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Thanks for all the replies. If that is indeed what it is, then I >>>>> still >>> have not >>>> been able to find the source of one of the signals that seems to be >>> causing >>>> the Reset, every pin I have found so far is an input, I have not >>>> found it connected to the output of anything yet :-( >>>> >>>> >>>> Have you tried the reverse? : follow an origin that you know should >>>> be controlling reset, such as the power-on indication from the PS, >>>> and see if >>> you >>>> can trace it to the CPU.= >>> >>> I have already found that source and it all looks OK. I think I have >>> identified another input to a NOR gate that is high and causing the >>> reset, but I can't find where it comes from. >>> >> >> Perhaps I'm not clear on what you're saying, I was taking you as meaning > you >> hadn't found a source driving the reset line. >> While you've found a PWR-OK signal and it looks good, have you found how >> it connects to the reset line? >> >> Reset-line arrangements on small machines aren't usually that complicated. >> (Usually the power-on signal source is a series RC combination (often with >> additional discretes such as diodes) between a power-bus and ground). >> >> Perhaps put up an image of the schematic you have so far. > > I have posted an image here: > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/system-board.png > > At the far right you will see a "To F11 Reset", my understanding is that > this is active High. I have determined that the D input on E141 is always > high. The CLR input on E141 is periodically set, thus causing a pulsing high > output on E141, leading to a pulsing Reset on the F11 chipset. Well that (the circuit, as much as is presented) is quite bizarre. There's not a lot to make sense of from what's shown. If it's really that complex then the question is why? What is all that complexity intended to do, for the sake of reset? Without understanding the intention you're stuck tracing your presumed faulty signal back hoping (luck) that you encounter a fault along the way. But it may be that the pulsing is not itself a fault, but an intended (perhaps looped-back) consequence of some more-distant condition (ala the watchdog timers others were mentioning earlier). Aside from continuing as you have been and hoping that you luck out, I'd be looking at options such as: - RE the whole thing and analyse it in entirety to figure out the intended reset operation. - Find the docs on the CPU and see if they could provide some explanation as to the intention, based on the CPU reset functionality. - Examine the schematics of other machines using the same CPU (as others have mentioned) to see if they have similar complexity around reset. - Double/triple check to ensure you haven't gone astray in the tracing. A note regarding E141, the 7474 (and following 74174) are edge-triggered, not transparent, and will require activity on the CLK input to produce a pulsing output (if PRE is fixed high), activity on the CLR input is not alone sufficient. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 12 15:25:00 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:25:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels Message-ID: <20181112212500.D99A418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jason T > According to my notes, for the VCFMW8 shirts ... I used DIN Next Pro > Rounded Medium for the panel text, although the font I had in my work > directory is "DIN 1451 Fette Breitschrift 1936". That is probably the > font next to the knob on the right and the bit numbers above the > switches. Yeah, that latter is the one we're looking for (mostly). (I tried downloading a couple of copies, but for some reason I don't understand the font viewer on my Windoze box wouldn't show them; from what I could see online, it looked close.) The DEC font uses a zero with a slash, but it's otherwise close. > There is no reason to think these are the original DEC panel fonts, just > what I found to be "close enough" at the time. Understood. Thanks! Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Nov 12 15:37:22 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:37:22 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <20181112212500.D99A418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181112212500.D99A418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Nov 12, 2018, at 4:25 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Jason T > >> According to my notes, for the VCFMW8 shirts ... I used DIN Next Pro >> Rounded Medium for the panel text, although the font I had in my work >> directory is "DIN 1451 Fette Breitschrift 1936". That is probably the >> font next to the knob on the right and the bit numbers above the >> switches. > > Yeah, that latter is the one we're looking for (mostly). (I tried downloading > a couple of copies, but for some reason I don't understand the font viewer on > my Windoze box wouldn't show them; from what I could see online, it looked > close.) The DEC font uses a zero with a slash, but it's otherwise close. For that, a capital O with a slash ? would probably serve. Most fonts tend to come with a fair number of accented and otherwise modified letters, perhaps not enough for Vietnamese but often enough for European languages. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 12 15:39:55 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 13:39:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bill Godbout In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > "drrt1968 at gmail.com" posted on AFC this morning that Bill died in the Camp fire in Northern California on Thursday. > Has anyone else heard about this? Google has no mention. Yet. How can we confirm? Hopefully, when they do find out, they will talk about his great contributions to the microcomputer industry, not just that that was where Gary Kildall was when IBM came a'calling. (although THAT might be what gets the news media to notice?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dab at froghouse.org Mon Nov 12 15:52:03 2018 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:52:03 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <20181112212500.D99A418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181112212500.D99A418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > "DIN 1451 Fette Breitschrift 1936". That is probably the > > font next to the knob on the right and the bit numbers above the > > switches. > > Yeah, that latter is the one we're looking for (mostly). I was able to download a version of that one that worked but I don't think I like the results.? One problem is that the instance of the font I found didn't have a bold face version.? You can see the results here. http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-f.pdf From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Nov 12 16:04:46 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:04:46 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: References: <20181112212500.D99A418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7B8C3CFA-60D9-4B02-A480-51D57DE52A45@comcast.net> > On Nov 12, 2018, at 4:52 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > > >>> "DIN 1451 Fette Breitschrift 1936". That is probably the >>> font next to the knob on the right and the bit numbers above the >>> switches. >> >> Yeah, that latter is the one we're looking for (mostly). > > > I was able to download a version of that one that worked but I don't > think I like the results. One problem is that the instance of the font > I found didn't have a bold face version. You can see the results here. > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-f.pdf The name of the font translates to "Bold Extended". DIN 1451 is a family of fonts, see Wikipedia. You're looking at one of the members of the family, the bold wide one. It's not all that bold, judging by the pictures; if you need something bolder still you may be out of luck. That also suggests that the DEC font isn't this one. Could it simply be Helvetica? paul From dab at froghouse.org Mon Nov 12 16:14:29 2018 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:14:29 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <7B8C3CFA-60D9-4B02-A480-51D57DE52A45@comcast.net> References: <20181112212500.D99A418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7B8C3CFA-60D9-4B02-A480-51D57DE52A45@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1a0b7000-82b6-84c6-d05d-e4fe12787363@froghouse.org> On 11/12/18 5:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > The name of the font translates to "Bold Extended". DIN 1451 is a family of fonts, see Wikipedia. You're looking at one of the members of the family, the bold wide one. It's not all that bold, judging by the pictures; if you need something bolder still you may be out of luck. I hadn't meant to send that message to the list, sorry, but since I did, here it is with Alte Haas Grotesk. http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-f-altehaasgrotesk.pdf > That also suggests that the DEC font isn't this one. Could it simply be Helvetica? Entirely possible.? Found this one that might look even more authentic.? :-) https://www.1001fonts.com/helveticrap-font.html From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Nov 12 16:24:03 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:24:03 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <7B8C3CFA-60D9-4B02-A480-51D57DE52A45@comcast.net> References: <20181112212500.D99A418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7B8C3CFA-60D9-4B02-A480-51D57DE52A45@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2018-11-12 5:04 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Nov 12, 2018, at 4:52 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>>> "DIN 1451 Fette Breitschrift 1936". That is probably the >>>> font next to the knob on the right and the bit numbers above the >>>> switches. >>> >>> Yeah, that latter is the one we're looking for (mostly). >> >> >> I was able to download a version of that one that worked but I don't >> think I like the results. One problem is that the instance of the font >> I found didn't have a bold face version. You can see the results here. >> >> http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-f.pdf > > The name of the font translates to "Bold Extended". DIN 1451 is a family of fonts, see Wikipedia. You're looking at one of the members of the family, the bold wide one. It's not all that bold, judging by the pictures; if you need something bolder still you may be out of luck. > > That also suggests that the DEC font isn't this one. Could it simply be Helvetica? ... I just posted that the closest I know of off the top of my head is Akzidenz Grotesk. (Indeed it's not DIN.) To get closer I'd need better images of the panels. --Toby > > paul > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Nov 12 16:29:05 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:29:05 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: References: <20181112212500.D99A418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7B8C3CFA-60D9-4B02-A480-51D57DE52A45@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9d8070d4-8c28-37ec-dcfd-76e790a2b88c@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-11-12 5:24 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2018-11-12 5:04 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> On Nov 12, 2018, at 4:52 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>>>> "DIN 1451 Fette Breitschrift 1936". That is probably the >>>>> font next to the knob on the right and the bit numbers above the >>>>> switches. >>>> >>>> Yeah, that latter is the one we're looking for (mostly). >>> >>> >>> I was able to download a version of that one that worked but I don't >>> think I like the results. One problem is that the instance of the font >>> I found didn't have a bold face version. You can see the results here. >>> >>> http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-f.pdf >> >> The name of the font translates to "Bold Extended". DIN 1451 is a family of fonts, see Wikipedia. You're looking at one of the members of the family, the bold wide one. It's not all that bold, judging by the pictures; if you need something bolder still you may be out of luck. >> >> That also suggests that the DEC font isn't this one. Could it simply be Helvetica? > > ... I just posted that the closest I know of off the top of my head is > Akzidenz Grotesk. (Indeed it's not DIN.) Maybe my message from 1.5 hours ago didn't get through. Here's the family I mean; I'm suggesting something around Medium weight, depending on silk screen spread, etc. https://www.bertholdtypes.com/font/akzidenz-grotesk/proplus/ --Toby > > To get closer I'd need better images of the panels. > > --Toby > > > >> >> paul >> >> > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 12 18:56:35 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:56:35 -0800 Subject: Bill Godbout In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0ed899d4-8e4b-c226-a799-c0ec3199f5fd@sydex.com> On 11/12/18 1:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Google has no mention.? Yet. > How can we confirm? Bill's family confirms and has set up a GoFundMe page for his wife and son: https://www.gofundme.com/godbouttuckcampfirerelieffund --Chuck From js at cimmeri.com Mon Nov 12 19:09:59 2018 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 20:09:59 -0500 Subject: Bill Godbout In-Reply-To: <0ed899d4-8e4b-c226-a799-c0ec3199f5fd@sydex.com> References: <0ed899d4-8e4b-c226-a799-c0ec3199f5fd@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5BEA2467.4000704@cimmeri.com> On 11/12/2018 7:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/12/18 1:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> Google has no mention. Yet. >> How can we confirm? > Bill's family confirms and has set up a GoFundMe page for his wife and son: > > https://www.gofundme.com/godbouttuckcampfirerelieffund > > --Chuck Oh, how absolutely horrible and tragic. As a decades long CompuPro user, it's incredibly sad for me that Mr. Godbout lost his life - especially in this unimaginably terrible manner. - J. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 12 19:38:32 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:38:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bill Godbout R.I.P. In-Reply-To: <0ed899d4-8e4b-c226-a799-c0ec3199f5fd@sydex.com> References: <0ed899d4-8e4b-c226-a799-c0ec3199f5fd@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> Google has no mention.? Yet. On Mon, 12 Nov 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Bill's family confirms and has set up a GoFundMe page for his wife and son: > > https://www.gofundme.com/godbouttuckcampfirerelieffund That is, indeed, truly tragic. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Nov 12 19:49:28 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 19:49:28 -0600 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <1a0b7000-82b6-84c6-d05d-e4fe12787363@froghouse.org> References: <20181112212500.D99A418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7B8C3CFA-60D9-4B02-A480-51D57DE52A45@comcast.net> <1a0b7000-82b6-84c6-d05d-e4fe12787363@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <5BEA2DA8.9050503@pico-systems.com> On 11/12/2018 04:14 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > On 11/12/18 5:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> The name of the font translates to "Bold Extended". DIN 1451 is a family of fonts, see Wikipedia. You're looking at one of the members of the family, the bold wide one. It's not all that bold, judging by the pictures; if you need something bolder still you may be out of luck. > > I hadn't meant to send that message to the list, sorry, but since I did, > here it is with Alte Haas Grotesk. > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-f-altehaasgrotesk.pdf > > > Hmmm, that one DOES look closer to DEC panels that I remember. Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 12 19:58:46 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:58:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <5BEA2DA8.9050503@pico-systems.com> References: <20181112212500.D99A418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7B8C3CFA-60D9-4B02-A480-51D57DE52A45@comcast.net> <1a0b7000-82b6-84c6-d05d-e4fe12787363@froghouse.org> <5BEA2DA8.9050503@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: >> I hadn't meant to send that message to the list, sorry, but since I did, >> here it is with Alte Haas Grotesk. >> http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-f-altehaasgrotesk.pdf On Mon, 12 Nov 2018, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Hmmm, that one DOES look closer to DEC panels that I remember. Surely there are enough clear and accurate images, but is there enough interest to use a font editor to edit something that is CLOSE into an exact font? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From guykd at optusnet.com.au Mon Nov 12 19:59:23 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:59:23 +1100 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <20181112200431.1CA6018C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Hi Noel, That site is a fine project. Here's another front panel image, of a PDP-8/S, from my restoration work on one (just starting.) http://everist.org/NobLog/20181104_PDP-8S.htm Specifically: http://everist.org/NobLog/pics/20181104/fascia_2000.jpg Feel free to use it. That image is a rushed stitch of two scan images, and has some flaws. I'll be doing a better job sometime (after a few other urgent chores), ending up with a nice clean image with posterized colors. As for the fonts, do you know about 'font identifier' sites online? For eg: http://www.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/ Seen a font in use and want to know what it is? Submit an image to WhatTheFont to find the closest matches in our database. Or, let cloak-draped font enthusiasts lend a hand in the WhatTheFont Forum http://www.fontsquirrel.com/ http://www.1001freefonts.com/ https://www.fontzillion.com/fonts http://www.fontspace.com/ https://www.urbanfonts.com/fonts/top-100-fonts.htm https://fonts.adobe.com/ (req creative cloud subscription) https://edgewebfonts.adobe.com/ see https://edgewebfonts.adobe.com/help On my scan of the PDP-8/S panel, I see at least 3, probably 4 different fonts. The registers text looks a bit like Futura, but isn't quite. http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/what-font-did-tektronix-use-in-their-manualsequipment-1960s/ Using these B&W samples: http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/fonts/ looking them up on http://www.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/ I get font_1 "ACCUMULATOR" https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/basic-commercial-soft-rounded/pro-black/ font_2 "CORPORATION" lots of close ones, maybe https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/urw/eurostile/t-regular-extended/ font_3 "digital" urrgh, fails. I need to clean up the image more. font_4 "PDP-8/S" maybe https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/bitstream/square-721/extended/ I suppose the people from DEC's art department are passed away by now, and all the records are gone? If you want to be precise, the best way to do it is to learn to use a font design utility, scan the panels, and construct a new font exactly matching the character outlines. But this is a somewhat steep learning curve. By the way, I'm looking for the full schematics sheets for the PDP-8/S (serial #700, backplane "LOGIC 770-P") with the circuit of the front panel lights board. Also photos of the front and back of the lights PCB, since I have to make a new one. (But with LEDs.) Guy At 03:04 PM 12/11/2018 -0500, you wrote: >So, anyone happen to know the font used in DEC's indicator panels: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html > >or, at least, a very close match? > >For mockups we're doing, Dave B is using 'DejaVu Sans', but that's not a >really close match: the vertical bars are wider than in the DEC font, where >the verticals and horizontals are the same width. > >It would be nice to have a closer match when we go to turn out replicas. >(We're just about settled on the format for the QSIC RKV11-F/RPV11-D panels.) > > Noel > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Nov 12 20:45:33 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 21:45:33 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <5BEA2DA8.9050503@pico-systems.com> References: <20181112212500.D99A418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7B8C3CFA-60D9-4B02-A480-51D57DE52A45@comcast.net> <1a0b7000-82b6-84c6-d05d-e4fe12787363@froghouse.org> <5BEA2DA8.9050503@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2018-11-12 8:49 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 11/12/2018 04:14 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/12/18 5:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> The name of the font translates to "Bold Extended".? DIN 1451 is a >>> family of fonts, see Wikipedia.? You're looking at one of the members >>> of the family, the bold wide one.? It's not all that bold, judging by >>> the pictures; if you need something bolder still you may be out of luck. >> >> I hadn't meant to send that message to the list, sorry, but since I did, >> here it is with Alte Haas Grotesk. >> >> http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-f-altehaasgrotesk.pdf >> >> >> > Hmmm, that one DOES look closer to DEC panels that I remember. > > Jon > The actual font is _not_ Alte Haas Grotesk, however. Alte Haas Grotesk is only about 11 years old, and is a distressed (novelty) copy of Haas Grotesk -- which is another name for Helvetica. Not all the panels are the same font. None are Helvetica (key characters, like capital R, C, and digits, are obviously different). Akzidenz Grotesk is closer, especially to RF08 and TC08, but still not a perfect match for all panels - e.g. the DX11 shows digits, and a capital C, that is different from AG (and different from RF08 & TC08). I would probably start with the DX11 panel (more than one font has been used, but most seem to be like this one). The capital C, M, W, R, X and digits would be key characters to match in other candidates in the grotesque/sans family. (For one survey of that family, that puts Helvetica in relative context, see https://acumin.typekit.com/history/) So you can only hope to be "close", really. As I said, proper identification would ideally need better images and access to type specimen books for the period. I don't currently have access to all of mine but if you want more effort on this identification I know people who can help. --Toby From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 12 20:51:43 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 18:51:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: [Top posted to avoid trimming information that might be useful to many] IFF DEC used a commercial font, then it should be possible to find it. But, it is extremely likely that they did NOT use a commercial font, and either had their graphics art people draw the characters as needed, or used reference patterns of their own that are NOT incorporated into a computer font. Were these DEC "fonts" fully formed, or a very fine bit pattern? Those sites should be excellent for finding something CLOSE. Maybe "close enough". Or close enough to use as a starting point for creating a new computer font based on the examples that are extant. Back in the day, before all of the look and smell IP law, font bit patterns were often considered to NOT be copyrightable. But the NAMES were trademarkable. Thus, MANY created fonts LIKE Helvetica and Times Roman, but could not CALL THEM THAT, because Merganthaler? owned that name. If creating a font, even one intended to resemble an existing one, the artistic temperament would usually make a few things different, to be "better", or just a personal touch. For simple stuff, such as this, which isn't even an entire character set, there were quite a few relatively easy to use font editors. For example, I used the POEMS font editor to create a few fonts for Cordata (Corona Data Systems) printers and HP LaserJet. I had a relatively trivial project, and the part that got finished included screen fonts (including reverse video, which HP told me would be "impossible"), and keycap fonts, for documentation. Using my screen capture program(s) Sybex used them heavily for books for DOS programs. I used a Cordata printer for my software, but used POEMS to make HPLJ versions of my fonts. I also created some 5x7, 7x9, 9x12 HPLJ fonts, that I jokingly called "FICHE fonts", that permitted me to print dozens of pages onto each sheet of paper. In those days, I could easily READ those on a table while standing and lecturing to classes! Now, I need +2.5 diopters to read and text at all :-( FONTOGRAPHER was generally considered better, and had capability of both HP LaserJet and Postscript, but, as you said, there was a learning curve. There were many others. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Tue, 13 Nov 2018, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > As for the fonts, do you know about 'font identifier' sites online? > For eg: > http://www.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/ > Seen a font in use and want to know what it is? > Submit an image to WhatTheFont to find the closest matches in our database. Or, let cloak-draped font enthusiasts lend a hand in the WhatTheFont Forum > http://www.fontsquirrel.com/ > http://www.1001freefonts.com/ > https://www.fontzillion.com/fonts > http://www.fontspace.com/ > https://www.urbanfonts.com/fonts/top-100-fonts.htm > https://fonts.adobe.com/ (req creative cloud subscription) > https://edgewebfonts.adobe.com/ see https://edgewebfonts.adobe.com/help > > > > On my scan of the PDP-8/S panel, I see at least 3, probably 4 different fonts. > The registers text looks a bit like Futura, but isn't quite. > http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/what-font-did-tektronix-use-in-their-manualsequipment-1960s/ > > Using these B&W samples: http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/fonts/ > looking them up on http://www.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/ I get > font_1 "ACCUMULATOR" https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/basic-commercial-soft-rounded/pro-black/ > font_2 "CORPORATION" lots of close ones, maybe https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/urw/eurostile/t-regular-extended/ > font_3 "digital" urrgh, fails. I need to clean up the image more. > font_4 "PDP-8/S" maybe https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/bitstream/square-721/extended/ > > I suppose the people from DEC's art department are passed away by now, and all the records are gone? > > If you want to be precise, the best way to do it is to learn to use a font design utility, scan the panels, > and construct a new font exactly matching the character outlines. But this is a somewhat steep learning curve. > > By the way, I'm looking for the full schematics sheets for the PDP-8/S (serial #700, backplane "LOGIC 770-P") > with the circuit of the front panel lights board. Also photos of the front and back of the lights PCB, since I > have to make a new one. (But with LEDs.) > > Guy > > > At 03:04 PM 12/11/2018 -0500, you wrote: >> So, anyone happen to know the font used in DEC's indicator panels: >> >> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html >> >> or, at least, a very close match? >> >> For mockups we're doing, Dave B is using 'DejaVu Sans', but that's not a >> really close match: the vertical bars are wider than in the DEC font, where >> the verticals and horizontals are the same width. >> >> It would be nice to have a closer match when we go to turn out replicas. >> (We're just about settled on the format for the QSIC RKV11-F/RPV11-D panels.) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Nov 12 20:58:16 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 21:58:16 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 2018-11-12 9:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > [Top posted to avoid trimming information that might be useful to many] > > IFF DEC used a commercial font, then it should be possible to find it. > > But, it is extremely likely that they did NOT use a commercial font, and > either had their graphics art people draw the characters as needed, or > used reference patterns of their own that are NOT incorporated into a > computer font. These panels do appear to be typeset using commercial fonts, and yes in theory, we can track those down. --Toby From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 22:14:43 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 23:14:43 -0500 Subject: Bill Godbout R.I.P. In-Reply-To: References: <0ed899d4-8e4b-c226-a799-c0ec3199f5fd@sydex.com> Message-ID: Best RAM cards of the early S-100 era through into the 1980's / Compupro era. b On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:38 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> Google has no mention. Yet. > > On Mon, 12 Nov 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Bill's family confirms and has set up a GoFundMe page for his wife and > son: > > > > https://www.gofundme.com/godbouttuckcampfirerelieffund > > That is, indeed, truly tragic. > > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Mon Nov 12 22:25:54 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 15:25:54 +1100 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181113152554.00de3ba0@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 09:58 PM 12/11/2018 -0500, you wrote: >On 2018-11-12 9:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> [Top posted to avoid trimming information that might be useful to many] >> >> IFF DEC used a commercial font, then it should be possible to find it. >> >> But, it is extremely likely that they did NOT use a commercial font, and >> either had their graphics art people draw the characters as needed, or >> used reference patterns of their own that are NOT incorporated into a >> computer font. > >These panels do appear to be typeset using commercial fonts, and yes in >theory, we can track those down. > >--Toby Hmm, I posted to the list about this 3 hours ago, and it hasn't appeared yet. Is there an extra vetting process for posts that include links to web sites? I included various links to font searching sites, cleaned-up samples of the DEC fonts from my own scan (online) of a DEC PDP-8/S panel, and specific fonts I found via search tools - that are very close or identical matches to the DEC panel fonts. Should I repost, or just wait till it appears? Guy From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Nov 12 22:54:21 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 04:54:21 +0000 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181113152554.00de3ba0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181113152554.00de3ba0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <5BC47A870288D272@rgout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) I have a large library of inlay panel pictures. I?m sure I did some drawings with text when I did the blank panels. (Just the holes for the lamps) I?ll have a look. If not I?ll match a font to a picture. Rod Smallwood Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Guy Dunphy via cctalk Sent: 13 November 2018 04:30 To: Toby Thain; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Font for DEC indicator panels At 09:58 PM 12/11/2018 -0500, you wrote: >On 2018-11-12 9:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> [Top posted to avoid trimming information that might be useful to many] >> >> IFF DEC used a commercial font, then it should be possible to find it. >> >> But, it is extremely likely that they did NOT use a commercial font, and >> either had their graphics art people draw the characters as needed, or >> used reference patterns of their own that are NOT incorporated into a >> computer font. > >These panels do appear to be typeset using commercial fonts, and yes in >theory, we can track those down. > >--Toby Hmm, I posted to the list about this 3 hours ago, and it hasn't appeared yet. Is there an extra vetting process for posts that include links to web sites? I included various links to font searching sites, cleaned-up samples of the DEC fonts from my own scan (online) of a DEC PDP-8/S panel, and specific fonts I found via search tools - that are very close or identical matches to the DEC panel fonts. Should I repost, or just wait till it appears? Guy From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 12 22:59:19 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 20:59:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181113152554.00de3ba0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181113152554.00de3ba0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: >>> [Top posted to avoid trimming information that might be useful to many] >>> IFF DEC used a commercial font, then it should be possible to find it. >> These panels do appear to be typeset using commercial fonts, and yes in >> theory, we can track those down. On Tue, 13 Nov 2018, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > Hmm, I posted to the list about this 3 hours ago, and it hasn't appeared yet. > Is there an extra vetting process for posts that include links to web sites? > I included various links to font searching sites, cleaned-up samples of the DEC fonts > from my own scan (online) of a DEC PDP-8/S panel, and specific fonts I found via > search tools - that are very close or identical matches to the DEC panel fonts. > Should I repost, or just wait till it appears? I received it, and replied. I top-posted, which I don't usually do, in order to not trim the useful information that you had supplied. Then, Toby replied to my post. You just replied to Toby's post. So, yes, at least some of us got your post. From steven at malikoff.com Mon Nov 12 23:11:15 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 15:11:15 +1000 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181113152554.00de3ba0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181113152554.00de3ba0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <588b5b4b26530c3b63fd62210c142483.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Guy said > Hmm, I posted to the list about this 3 hours ago, and it hasn't appeared yet. > Is there an extra vetting process for posts that include links to web sites? > I included various links to font searching sites, cleaned-up samples of the DEC fonts > from my own scan (online) of a DEC PDP-8/S panel, and specific fonts I found via > search tools - that are very close or identical matches to the DEC panel fonts. > > Should I repost, or just wait till it appears? > > Guy I sometimes find delays posting to cctalk when I (located +10 GMT) post before 10am local time, ie. it is still the previous day on the cctalk server and most of the rest of the world. My post seems to disappear for up to ten hours or so. I don't recall any trouble when I post after 10am local time, it appears pretty much immediately. Well that's what it seems to be like, I could be wrong but I don't worry about it too much. Regarding fonts on reproduced panels. This is a common problem in vintage vehicle restoration when reproduction dataplates are made and sold. Some of the repos are redrawn on computer and retyped with a close font. However this isn't really good enough for a demanding restorer. I've even seen a repro nomenclature plate with a typo, which would be annoying considering the cost of some of these things. If you have access to the original, nothing really beats reproducing the _image_ of the panel with all its nuanced spacing, miniscule changes in letter size and orientation and the like rather than recreating the panel. In Noel's case the originals are probably not at hand, so there is obviously no choice but to recreate them. I can't help with the font but it makes me think of the curved font on the front of the PDP-11 consoles and in the handbook where the lowercase t has a different length depending on whether it is in or at the end of a word. Steve. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Nov 12 23:52:51 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 21:52:51 -0800 Subject: Bill Godbout R.I.P. In-Reply-To: References: <0ed899d4-8e4b-c226-a799-c0ec3199f5fd@sydex.com> Message-ID: I got to meet him a few times @ the San Mateo electronics swap meet.? It was the huge version before all had petered out into small events. He loved to auction off the good stuff, and would bring both Godbout branded and Compupro stuff.? The latter was as solidly tested and engineered of course as anything eve made for any standard or computer. So sad to hear of this. Thanks Jim On 11/12/2018 8:14 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Best RAM cards of the early S-100 era through into the 1980's / Compupro > era. > b > > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:38 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >>>> Google has no mention. Yet. >> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> Bill's family confirms and has set up a GoFundMe page for his wife and >> son: >>> https://www.gofundme.com/godbouttuckcampfirerelieffund >> That is, indeed, truly tragic. >> >> >> >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com >> > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 13 06:40:15 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 07:40:15 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <588b5b4b26530c3b63fd62210c142483.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181113152554.00de3ba0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <588b5b4b26530c3b63fd62210c142483.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <3a09cb66-866c-ee9b-1fb4-327a5a18a14b@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-11-13 12:11 AM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Guy said >> Hmm, I posted to the list about this 3 hours ago, and it hasn't appeared yet. >> Is there an extra vetting process for posts that include links to web sites? >> I included various links to font searching sites, cleaned-up samples of the DEC fonts >> from my own scan (online) of a DEC PDP-8/S panel, and specific fonts I found via >> search tools - that are very close or identical matches to the DEC panel fonts. >> >> Should I repost, or just wait till it appears? >> >> Guy > > I sometimes find delays posting to cctalk when I (located +10 GMT) post before 10am local > time, ie. it is still the previous day on the cctalk server and most of the rest of the > world. My post seems to disappear for up to ten hours or so. I don't recall any trouble when > I post after 10am local time, it appears pretty much immediately. Well that's what it seems > to be like, I could be wrong but I don't worry about it too much. > > Regarding fonts on reproduced panels. This is a common problem in vintage vehicle restoration > when reproduction dataplates are made and sold. Some of the repos are redrawn on computer and > retyped with a close font. > > However this isn't really good enough for a demanding restorer. I've even seen a repro > nomenclature plate with a typo, which would be annoying considering the cost of some of these > things. If you have access to the original, nothing really beats reproducing the _image_ of > the panel with all its nuanced spacing, miniscule changes in letter size and orientation > and the like rather than recreating the panel. > > In Noel's case the originals are probably not at hand, so there is obviously no choice but to > recreate them. That's not realistic in this case. The only artwork we have is much too poor to be sources for redrawing, but we also know rather closely what family the originals are from (grotesks and sans available mid-century). >From off the shelf fonts we can get much closer than Deja Vu or Helvetica (although almost certainly not using free fonts). As you say, one of the challenges is that only a fraction of the diversity of pre-digital typefaces has survived into digital, and specimen books are also rare, but I'm checking with a couple of other typographers because the DX11 panel font might be digitally available. It seems weirdly familiar although I can't yet put a name to it. --Toby > I can't help with the font but it makes me think of the curved font on the front > of the PDP-11 consoles and in the handbook where the lowercase t has a different length depending > on whether it is in or at the end of a word. > > Steve. > > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 13 07:08:48 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 08:08:48 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 2018-11-12 9:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > [Top posted to avoid trimming information that might be useful to many] > > IFF DEC used a commercial font, then it should be possible to find it. > Another plan of attack could be to find the corporate standards manuals that applied during the period. DEC is known for strict publication standards and typographic attention to detail so it's likely that there existed an internal written design standard for front panels that spelled out the information we are looking for. Are the DEC archives accessible? --Toby From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 13 07:38:27 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 08:38:27 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: > On Nov 13, 2018, at 8:08 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > > On 2018-11-12 9:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> [Top posted to avoid trimming information that might be useful to many] >> >> IFF DEC used a commercial font, then it should be possible to find it. >> > > Another plan of attack could be to find the corporate standards manuals > that applied during the period. > > DEC is known for strict publication standards and typographic attention > to detail so it's likely that there existed an internal written design > standard for front panels that spelled out the information we are > looking for. Are the DEC archives accessible? It would be great to find those but I haven't heard that they exist. The information might not be clear even if it's found. For example, there is a copy of the DEC color standard online. But the color references it gives are largely in obsolete systems, not the well understood Pantone system. So even if they can be translated the job is not easy. As for fonts, one comment says that those panels are "typeset". Don't count on that. Those that come from the era of phototypesetting might be, but phototypesetting was only just starting to appear when the earlier of those panels showed up. And while a phototypesetter might be used in the documentation department, it would seem like an expensive and underused tool for the department responsible for panel lettering. Standard templates seems more likely. Consider the history of the "digital" logo, as documented in the PostScript reconstruction of it. That's clearly an example where the lettering was done by a draftsman and reused ever since. Re Guy Dunphy's images: font_2 looks a lot like Microgramma, one of my favorite fonts. But it's not an exact match because the horizontal and vertical segments are curved in letters like O rather than being straight. font_3 looks like the "digital" blocks logo without the blocks, so you might grab the PostScript file to see if that works. On font names: "grotesk" (or "grotezk" in German) is a technical term for sans-serif fonts, so it applies to things like Helvetica and Futura. (Another term is "gothic" -- confusing to laymen who think of that as a term for "Old English" fancy fonts, which it is not.) Up to the 1970s or so, you'd typically find a given font design with a single name, chosen by the original designer and used as the trademark by the foundry selling that font. "Helvetica" and "Futura" are examples. Later, people started copying fonts when computers made that easy, and US law allows this because it protects the name, as a trademark, but not the shape. This is why early versions of CorelDraw shipped with hundreds of familiar fonts with unfamiliar new names, like "Swiss" instead of "Helvetica" , or "Gatineau" (?) instead of "Garamond". Microsoft adopted this trick also, giving us Arial (Helvetica) and "Times New Roman" (Times Roman) among many others. At this point, you're likely to find the most popular fonts with hundreds of names. By the way, copies are often inferior (the CorelDraw ones for example) in that they have a lot more line segments since they are essentially tracings of the original rather than expertly constructed shapes. If you can't find a good font, you can definitely trace the original images and make your own. That's more work than you might expect but with modern tools it isn't hard. I've done that with the DEC custom font that is used on the covers of the earlier PDP-11 handbooks and manuals, a long time ago with CorelDraw which isn't a good tool for that job. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 13 07:42:49 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 08:42:49 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <588b5b4b26530c3b63fd62210c142483.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181113152554.00de3ba0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <588b5b4b26530c3b63fd62210c142483.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <3E6BD0BE-BC53-4353-B7AD-3D708789773D@comcast.net> > On Nov 13, 2018, at 12:11 AM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > ... > In Noel's case the originals are probably not at hand, so there is obviously no choice but to > recreate them. I can't help with the font but it makes me think of the curved font on the front > of the PDP-11 consoles and in the handbook where the lowercase t has a different length depending > on whether it is in or at the end of a word. > > Steve. I'm not sure if attachments work... if yes, here is my attempt at that font. I can post the FontForge source also if there is interest. Some of the letters are made up because I didn't have an actual example, the x is one. Most are taken from DEC documents. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 13 07:54:18 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 08:54:18 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <3E6BD0BE-BC53-4353-B7AD-3D708789773D@comcast.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181113152554.00de3ba0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <588b5b4b26530c3b63fd62210c142483.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <3E6BD0BE-BC53-4353-B7AD-3D708789773D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <13D80FFA-0746-44BC-910E-FE928886FD72@comcast.net> > On Nov 13, 2018, at 8:42 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Nov 13, 2018, at 12:11 AM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> In Noel's case the originals are probably not at hand, so there is obviously no choice but to >> recreate them. I can't help with the font but it makes me think of the curved font on the front >> of the PDP-11 consoles and in the handbook where the lowercase t has a different length depending >> on whether it is in or at the end of a word. >> >> Steve. > > I'm not sure if attachments work... if yes, here is my attempt at that font. I can post the FontForge source also if there is interest. > > Some of the letters are made up because I didn't have an actual example, the x is one. Most are taken from DEC documents. > > paul Ok, so attachments don't work. I'll take a look at Github. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 13 08:25:25 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 09:25:25 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <13D80FFA-0746-44BC-910E-FE928886FD72@comcast.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181113152554.00de3ba0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <588b5b4b26530c3b63fd62210c142483.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <3E6BD0BE-BC53-4353-B7AD-3D708789773D@comcast.net> <13D80FFA-0746-44BC-910E-FE928886FD72@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7E3523B9-7005-4B0C-822F-2268AE759CD7@comcast.net> > On Nov 13, 2018, at 8:54 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Nov 13, 2018, at 8:42 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Nov 13, 2018, at 12:11 AM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> In Noel's case the originals are probably not at hand, so there is obviously no choice but to >>> recreate them. I can't help with the font but it makes me think of the curved font on the front >>> of the PDP-11 consoles and in the handbook where the lowercase t has a different length depending >>> on whether it is in or at the end of a word. >>> >>> Steve. >> >> I'm not sure if attachments work... if yes, here is my attempt at that font. I can post the FontForge source also if there is interest. >> >> Some of the letters are made up because I didn't have an actual example, the x is one. Most are taken from DEC documents. >> >> paul > > Ok, so attachments don't work. I'll take a look at Github. > > paul I created https://github.com/pkoning2/decstuff -- you can find the handbook font in fonts/Handbook. While I was at it I also dropped my "TECO in Python" in the "teco" directory. paul From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 13 08:31:14 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 09:31:14 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3f84fa35-3c70-e84b-92b3-cd7edc55188e@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-11-13 8:38 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Nov 13, 2018, at 8:08 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 2018-11-12 9:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> [Top posted to avoid trimming information that might be useful to many] >>> >>> IFF DEC used a commercial font, then it should be possible to find it. >>> >> >> Another plan of attack could be to find the corporate standards manuals >> that applied during the period. >> >> DEC is known for strict publication standards and typographic attention >> to detail so it's likely that there existed an internal written design >> standard for front panels that spelled out the information we are >> looking for. Are the DEC archives accessible? > > It would be great to find those but I haven't heard that they exist. > > The information might not be clear even if it's found. For example, there is a copy of the DEC color standard online. But the color references it gives are largely in obsolete systems, not the well understood Pantone system. So even if they can be translated the job is not easy. > > As for fonts, one comment says that those panels are "typeset". Don't count on that. Those that come from the era of phototypesetting might be, but phototypesetting was only just starting to appear when the earlier of those panels showed up. And while a phototypesetter might be used in the documentation department, it would seem like an expensive and underused tool for the department responsible for panel lettering. Standard templates seems more likely. These panels are not drawn by lettering templates. They MAY be set by dry transfer, but phototypesetting is the more likely possibility (which was nearly 20 years old by 1970; an entire industry existed around piece setting, servicing graphic designers and print shops, and costs would have been quite reasonable; there was no need for DEC to have an inhouse typesetting system). Whether dry transfer or photoset, the layout was likely pasted up entire then photographed by process camera for purposes of mask making. > > Consider the history of the "digital" logo, as documented in the PostScript reconstruction of it. That's clearly an example where the lettering was done by a draftsman and reused ever since. > > Re Guy Dunphy's images: font_2 looks a lot like Microgramma, one of my favorite fonts. Yes, it's labelled Eurostile, and Microgramma is a clone of that. Looks to me like the correct identification. But it's not an exact match because the horizontal and vertical segments are curved in letters like O rather than being straight. font_3 looks like the "digital" blocks logo without the blocks, so you might grab the PostScript file to see if that works. Bitstream Square 721 is also Eurostile. Another correct identification, in essence. Guy's font 1 is likely the same as some of the PDP-10 panels. It's in the grotesk family, but not Helvetica (the "R", "S" are the clearest proof). As I said, Akzidenz Grotesk is the closest I've found to this so far. > > On font names: "grotesk" (or "grotezk" in German) is a technical term for sans-serif fonts, so it applies to things like Helvetica and Futura. ... > > If you can't find a good font, you can definitely trace the original images and make your own. That's more work than you might expect but with modern tools it isn't hard. I've done that with the DEC custom font that is used on the covers of the earlier PDP-11 handbooks and manuals, a long time ago with CorelDraw which isn't a good tool for that job. > > paul > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 13 09:21:23 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:21:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels Message-ID: <20181113152123.DE8A618C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Toby Thain > To get closer I'd need better images of the panels. Hi, I borrowed a DEC inlay from someone (a KA10 CPU bay) and scanned a chunk of it (as much as I could fit into my A4 scanner :-) at 200 dpi: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/KACPUPanel.jpg I have a TC08 inlay, but it's currently being used in my QSIC display (until we can get the RKV11-F/RPV11-D inlay done :-), and I didn't want to yank it out. As far as I can tell, it's the same font on the two of them. > the closest I know of off the top of my head is Akzidenz Grotesk. The Akzidenz Grotesk Medium is indeed very, very close (other than the zero). Do you happen to know if that font available for use in non-commercial settings? Thanks! Noel From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 13 09:38:30 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 07:38:30 -0800 Subject: desoldering (was Re: VAX 9440) In-Reply-To: References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> <1542036274281.2316@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <5ED47FC8-D923-403B-8BF5-EEDDC13F7692@nf6x.net> On the topic of desoldering tweezers: I don't like them. I've done tons of rework of components down to 0201 size. I consider 0201 to be difficult, but I found that once I could work on 0201 components at all, 0402 suddenly seemed easy to work with! Anyway, the tweezers I've used had poor tip alignment, tips too blunt for small components, and of course the whole handle has to be positioned in a plane such that both tips touch their corresponding terminals at the same time. And that was with high-end Metcal tweezers. Instead, I use two pencil-type irons, one in each hand, working under a stereo microscope. The tips are much better, and manipulating each tip independently provides great control of what's going on. Only drawback is that if you want to use a fancy, expensive iron, now you get to buy two of them. If you're tempted by a soldering station with two or more outputs, make sure that it can drive both simultaneously. There are dual-output stations that have two outputs but can only run one at a time, as well as ones which can drive two irons at once. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 13 09:40:50 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 07:40:50 -0800 Subject: VAX 9440 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5D008778-085C-484E-94FE-C6A746874C30@nf6x.net> What a majestic system! When I saw the teaser picture of the backs of racks on Twitter, I was assuming something in the 11/78x series. I don't know anything about the 9440 yet, so it'll be fun to read up on that. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 13 10:11:49 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:11:49 -0600 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <5BEAF7C5.7030804@pico-systems.com> On 11/12/2018 08:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > IFF DEC used a commercial font, then it should be possible > to find it. > > But, it is extremely likely that they did NOT use a > commercial font, and either had their graphics art people > draw the characters as needed, or used reference patterns > of their own that are NOT incorporated into a computer font. > Were these DEC "fonts" fully formed, or a very fine bit > pattern? > Well, how DID they make panels? I'm guessing that in the beginning, it was all done manually with photo/optical technology, the same stuff they used to make boards. Also, used to screen print part numbers on sheet metal, power supply parts, etc. So, they may have gotten pre-made letters on some kind of carrier sheet, and transferred them to a mylar sheet, and then photographically reproduced that onto a master phototool, which was then used to make the silk screen. This would be all standard technology to anybody making PC boards in the 1960's - 1970's. While DEC got big enough to do this all in house or have one of the providers in this area make it for them, they also might have just picked a font they liked from somebody's catalog. A LOT of advertising signage and all sorts of graphics arts stuff was done by hand with photographic technology at that time. Bishop Graphics comes to mind as a provider of transferable lettering and of course, DIP component patterns and such. I suspect that they didn't get into any digital graphics technology until at least the later DEC-10 systems, so mid 1970's. Jon From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 10:28:30 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 17:28:30 +0100 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <5BEAF7C5.7030804@pico-systems.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5BEAF7C5.7030804@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 17:12, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Well, how DID they make panels? Letraset? :-) -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 13 10:51:20 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 11:51:20 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <5BEAF7C5.7030804@pico-systems.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5BEAF7C5.7030804@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2018-11-13 11:11 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 11/12/2018 08:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >> IFF DEC used a commercial font, then it should be possible to find it. >> >> But, it is extremely likely that they did NOT use a commercial font, >> and either had their graphics art people draw the characters as >> needed, or used reference patterns of their own that are NOT >> incorporated into a computer font. >> Were these DEC "fonts" fully formed, or a very fine bit pattern? >> > Well, how DID they make panels?? I'm guessing that in the beginning, it > was all done manually with photo/optical technology, the same stuff they > used to make boards.? Also, used to screen print part numbers on sheet > metal, power supply parts, etc.? So, they may have gotten pre-made > letters on some kind of carrier sheet, and transferred them to a mylar > sheet, and then photographically reproduced that onto a master > phototool, which was then used to make the silk screen.? This would be > all standard technology to anybody making PC boards in the 1960's - 1970's. Screenprinting. The production of the mask would have been done roughly as I outlined: Camera ready ("mechanical") paste-up artwork, exposed via process camera to a negative, and from then on the process is standard contact exposures (vacuum frame, etching, etc). > > While DEC got big enough to do this all in house or have one of the > providers in this area make it for them, they also might have just > picked a font they liked from somebody's catalog.? A LOT of advertising > signage and all sorts of graphics arts stuff was done by hand with > photographic technology at that time.? Bishop Graphics comes to mind as Yes, dry transfer is a possibility. But so is piecework phototypesetting. > a provider of transferable lettering and of course, DIP component > patterns and such. > > I suspect that they didn't get into any digital graphics technology > until at least the later DEC-10 systems, so mid 1970's. --Toby > > Jon > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 13 10:58:51 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 11:58:51 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <20181113152123.DE8A618C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181113152123.DE8A618C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2018-11-13 10:21 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Toby Thain > > > To get closer I'd need better images of the panels. > > Hi, I borrowed a DEC inlay from someone (a KA10 CPU bay) and scanned a chunk > of it (as much as I could fit into my A4 scanner :-) at 200 dpi: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/KACPUPanel.jpg > Nice job, that's a good reference. > I have a TC08 inlay, but it's currently being used in my QSIC display (until > we can get the RKV11-F/RPV11-D inlay done :-), and I didn't want to yank it > out. As far as I can tell, it's the same font on the two of them. > > > > the closest I know of off the top of my head is Akzidenz Grotesk. > > The Akzidenz Grotesk Medium is indeed very, very close (other than the zero). > Do you happen to know if that font available for use in non-commercial > settings? I am not aware of one, but I can hunt around. I'm also waiting on a friend who might have an idea about the DX11 panel, which is a different font from this one. Forgetting about identifying the original for a moment, I just stumbled on this NEW (and very good) design, which is a bit closer to the DX11 and could be a suitable basis for a set of modern panels? You could license this font for your product and its branding (or documentation, web site, etc). It even has a monospaced variant: https://lettersfromsweden.se/font/lab-grotesque/ --Toby > > Thanks! > > Noel > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 13 11:12:06 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 09:12:06 -0800 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: References: <20181113152123.DE8A618C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <85e32b87-75c5-34a9-cf66-fb200f64ce62@bitsavers.org> On 11/13/18 8:58 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > I am not aware of one, but I can hunt around. I'm also waiting on a > friend who might have an idea about the DX11 panel, which is a different > font from this one. Wasn't the DX11 a Systems Concepts product? From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Tue Nov 13 11:15:34 2018 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:15:34 -0500 Subject: DEC Alpha Bug Check Crash In-Reply-To: References: <2d9f2543-0611-29d7-6514-37e7d87e4aea@comcast.net> <5BE5CAF0.3080400@pico-systems.com> <01QZH84NI4DO0016I4@beyondthepale.ie> <5BE9B6E0.1030404@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <819e27f9-3742-e5e2-87ab-5ef63a20f177@comcast.net> On 11/12/2018 1:30 PM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:22 PM Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: >> On 11/11/2018 11:36 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>> This is most likely correct. I re-installed the OS on a >>> different SD card/SCSI2SD device and got a successful >>> graphics boot up. Do SD cards drop bits or go bad? >>> >> UGH! Yes, they can. It SHOULD cause a device parity error, >> but I guess some of their coverage is less than 100% > You can buy "industrially rated" flash memory cards such as the > "SanDisk Industrial" labelled ones, which seems to help based on my > experience with SD cards in industrial controls systems at work. > > Absolutely avoid cheap SD cards though, they aren't usually good for > more than a few re-writes in a digital camera type situation (linearly > write the card, and then erase the whole thing, repeat). Things like > swap files on SD/CF cards may wear them out in a couple of hours of > use. > > Pat And I was under the impression that my hardware problems were coming from the 20 year old Vax!? Thanks for informing me. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 13 11:28:50 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:28:50 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <20181113152123.DE8A618C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181113152123.DE8A618C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2018-11-13 10:21 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Toby Thain > > > To get closer I'd need better images of the panels. > > Hi, I borrowed a DEC inlay from someone (a KA10 CPU bay) and scanned a chunk > of it (as much as I could fit into my A4 scanner :-) at 200 dpi: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/KACPUPanel.jpg > > I have a TC08 inlay, but it's currently being used in my QSIC display (until > we can get the RKV11-F/RPV11-D inlay done :-), and I didn't want to yank it > out. As far as I can tell, it's the same font on the two of them. > > > > the closest I know of off the top of my head is Akzidenz Grotesk. > > The Akzidenz Grotesk Medium is indeed very, very close (other than the zero). "Standard Medium" appears to be an American trade name for Akzidenz Grotesk or clones. Unfortunately the AG "Q" is still wrong for your panel example, so this is not it. http://castletype.com/html/tipoteca/standard-norm-medium.html ^^ This is a revival, but the font is much older and was used for transit signage in NYC. --Toby > Do you happen to know if that font available for use in non-commercial > settings? > > Thanks! > > Noel > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 13 11:36:13 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:36:13 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <85e32b87-75c5-34a9-cf66-fb200f64ce62@bitsavers.org> References: <20181113152123.DE8A618C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <85e32b87-75c5-34a9-cf66-fb200f64ce62@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Nov 13, 2018, at 12:12 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 11/13/18 8:58 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > >> I am not aware of one, but I can hunt around. I'm also waiting on a >> friend who might have an idea about the DX11 panel, which is a different >> font from this one. > > Wasn't the DX11 a Systems Concepts product? No, DEC Computer Special Systems. Unibus to IBM 360 channel adapter. I worked with the guy who used to support that device, he had a box of IBM 360 binary card decks (for the diagnostics) in his office. paul From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 13 12:17:25 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:17:25 -0800 Subject: desoldering (was Re: VAX 9440) In-Reply-To: <5ED47FC8-D923-403B-8BF5-EEDDC13F7692@nf6x.net> References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> <1542036274281.2316@w2hx.com> <5ED47FC8-D923-403B-8BF5-EEDDC13F7692@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On 11/13/18 7:38 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > Instead, I use two pencil-type irons, one in each hand, working under > a stereo microscope. The tips are much better, and manipulating each > tip independently provides great control of what's going on. Only > drawback is that if you want to use a fancy, expensive iron, now you > get to buy two of them. If you're tempted by a soldering station with > two or more outputs, make sure that it can drive both simultaneously. > There are dual-output stations that have two outputs but can only run > one at a time, as well as ones which can drive two irons at once. After seeing the video on the ZD-985 some years ago on Dave's EEVBlog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft50m8UU5WQ I've been wondering if it's a worthwhile tool. Does anyone have one of these things? --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 14:46:39 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 15:46:39 -0500 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 4:08 AM Eric Smith wrote: > > It is remotely possible that there's an undocumented "format" command > > in the protocol. However, I've heard multiple people claim that > > special firmware was required. > > I spent some time reverse-engineering the firmware. There is only one > undocumented opcode, decimal 10, and I haven't yet figured out what it > does, but it definitely doesn't format a tape. Is Opcode #10 the "Enter MRSP Mode" or is that something else? -ethan From rp at servium.ch Sat Nov 10 11:48:43 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 18:48:43 +0100 Subject: Looking for optical grid mouse pad In-Reply-To: <54AAC229-B5D8-4F7B-9E15-EE3A2AEFBC9B@vmssoftware.com> References: <54AAC229-B5D8-4F7B-9E15-EE3A2AEFBC9B@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: Congrats on that amazing find. On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 5:24 PM Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello everyone, > > > > A week ago, I took possession of a second Ardent Titan graphics > supercomputer, and unlike the other Titan, this one is almost complete. > There is one tiny bit missing, and that is a mouse pad. The mouse used with > this systems is a Mouse Systems M4 variant (M4Q), and it does not appear to > be a normal serial mouse. So, if anyone has one of those reflective > mousepads with a grid of fine blue and grey lines that they don?t need, I?d > be very happy to have it. > > > > I have tried to print my own mousepad, but the mouse only works in the y > direction on it. > there were 2 versions of that mousepad, and the symptom of using the wrong one was that the mouse would only move in one direction. There was another version of the print-it-yourself mouse pad that's essentially just white noise, have you tried that? > > > For those who want to know, the Titan is outfitted as follows: > > > > 2 x Titan P3 vector processors (using a MIPS R3000 for scalar operations) > > 2 x 64 MB main memory > > Extended G2 Graphics > > 3 Maxtor 760 MB disks > > QIC-120 tapedrive > > 19? trinitron monitor with stereo bezel and 3d glasses > > Keyboard, mouse, knob box > > > > Titan OS 4.2 installed (plus version 3.0, 4.1, and 4.2 installation tapes) > Dore, AVS, and PHIGS+ graphics environments > > Vectorizing FORTRAN compiler with LINPACK, EISPACK, and FFT libraries > > Matlab-Pro 3.5 (the Titan was the only computer ever that had Matlab as > part of its bundled programs) > > Biodesign Biograf 3.0 molecular modeling application > > > > All bits and pieces, and all software appears to work. > > > > Camiel > > > > > > From rp at servium.ch Sat Nov 10 12:39:13 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 19:39:13 +0100 Subject: Looking for optical grid mouse pad In-Reply-To: References: <54AAC229-B5D8-4F7B-9E15-EE3A2AEFBC9B@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 7:12 PM Camiel Vanderhoeven < camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com> wrote: > On 11/10/18, 6:49 PM, "Rico Pajarola" wrote: > > > > I have tried to print my own mousepad, but the mouse only works in the y > direction on it. > > there were 2 versions of that mousepad, and the symptom of using the wrong > one was that the mouse would only move in one direction. > > > > There was another version of the print-it-yourself mouse pad that's > essentially just white noise, have you tried that? > > > > I know I need the one with the grid, because it?s shown in the > documentation. > the white noise mouse pad is not an official thing, but it's reported to work for some optical mice. I haven't tried it myself. YMMV. I have just created and printed a simple grid, with two lines per > millimeter. If someone has already created one that you can download and > print that works, that would be great. > The pad has different resolutions for x and y axis, and one axis (x axis?) seems to be more sensitive to wrong spacing (if the mouse only moves in one direction it could also be a symptom of a mousepad rotated by 90 degrees). So maybe you need to experiment with the grid size a bit. > > Camiel > From qsecofr at qseco.fr Sat Nov 10 13:44:07 2018 From: qsecofr at qseco.fr (Yvan Janssens) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 20:44:07 +0100 Subject: New to System/36 In-Reply-To: <28b215780cfee82acde12784b7f1aa5c@alanlee.org> References: <28b215780cfee82acde12784b7f1aa5c@alanlee.org> Message-ID: You will need the keyboard. Those terminals usually don't come up without it. Good news tho if the keyboard has been nicked, the protocol is compatible-ish with PS/2. I have successfully used $generic_ps2_keyboard with the right plug for it. Make sure to not hit the Windows key (or any other 'new' keys) - you'll lock up the terminal's firmware. You will also have to configure the terminal to use address 0 - Twinax busses have an address range of 0-7 and you need bus 0, address 0 for the console. Generally speaking, bringing up the system is similar to bringing up early AS/400s. /y On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 at 19:59, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > Just picked up an IBM System/36 5362 last night. It is in pretty good > physical condition with just a few minor scratches - other than needing > a thorough cleaning. It has 2 60 MB hard disks in the unit. Not sure > of the RAM capacity. Missing the the mode hard key. > > A few of us tried to get it running tonight. It came with a 3179 > twin-ax terminal but no keyboard. We connected the terminal via a > twinax cable direct from port 0 to the terminated Y adapter on the > terminal. Never got any output on the terminal at any time other than > the fairly empty status line. The S/36 front panel console light did > illuminate after we connected the terminal. The key was locked to > Normal but we were able to by-pass it with a jumper to get it into > Service mode. The media that came with it only had disk 1 of an SSP > release and we could not get that to IPL from floppy (mode 3 / panel > 1000). It stepped the head motor forward and back a couple times, > engaged the head, then immediately threw an error code. > > Any idea where I can get an SSP release for the S/36 5362 and how to > write it to 8" floppies? Also where I might find a keyboard for the > terminal and what can be done if anything to gauge the health of the > hard drives? > > -Alan H. > From cctalk at snarc.net Sat Nov 10 17:45:56 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 18:45:56 -0500 Subject: VAX 9440 In-Reply-To: References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <61668af5-f8a9-8e3e-4e2d-d56dd2e5e94d@snarc.net> > The question is probably, could they afford the power bill? We have a bunch of Crays and CDCs at the Computer History Museum, and if they were operational, we'd probably have to take up a special very-large-hat-passing collection http://vcfed.org/wp/contribute/ :) From alan at alanlee.org Sat Nov 10 00:48:59 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 01:48:59 -0500 Subject: New to System/36 Message-ID: Just picked up an IBM System/36 5362 tonight. It is in pretty good physical condition with just a few minor scratches - other than needing a thorough cleaning. It has 2 60 MB hard disks in the unit. Not sure of the RAM capacity. Missing the the mode hard key. A few of us tried to get it running tonight. It came with a 3179 twin-ax terminal but no keyboard. We connected the terminal via a twinax cable direct from port 0 to the terminated Y adapter on the terminal. Never got any output on the terminal at any time other than the fairly empty status line. The S/36 front panel console light did illuminate after we connected the terminal. The key was locked to Normal but we were able to by-pass it with a jumper to get it into Service mode. The media that came with it only had disk 1 of an SSP release and we could not get that to IPL from floppy (mode 3 / panel 1000). It stepped the head motor forward and back a couple times, engaged the head, then immediately threw an error code. Any idea where I can get an SSP release for the S/36 5362 and how to write it to 8" floppies? Also where I might find a keyboard for the terminal and what can be done if anything to gauge the health of the hard drives? -Alan H. From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sat Nov 10 10:24:12 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 17:24:12 +0100 Subject: Looking for optical grid mouse pad Message-ID: <54AAC229-B5D8-4F7B-9E15-EE3A2AEFBC9B@vmssoftware.com> Hello everyone, A week ago, I took possession of a second Ardent Titan graphics supercomputer, and unlike the other Titan, this one is almost complete. There is one tiny bit missing, and that is a mouse pad. The mouse used with this systems is a Mouse Systems M4 variant (M4Q), and it does not appear to be a normal serial mouse. So, if anyone has one of those reflective mousepads with a grid of fine blue and grey lines that they don?t need, I?d be very happy to have it. I have tried to print my own mousepad, but the mouse only works in the y direction on it. For those who want to know, the Titan is outfitted as follows: 2 x Titan P3 vector processors (using a MIPS R3000 for scalar operations) 2 x 64 MB main memory Extended G2 Graphics 3 Maxtor 760 MB disks QIC-120 tapedrive 19? trinitron monitor with stereo bezel and 3d glasses Keyboard, mouse, knob box Titan OS 4.2 installed (plus version 3.0, 4.1, and 4.2 installation tapes) Dore, AVS, and PHIGS+ graphics environments Vectorizing FORTRAN compiler with LINPACK, EISPACK, and FFT libraries Matlab-Pro 3.5 (the Titan was the only computer ever that had Matlab as part of its bundled programs) Biodesign Biograf 3.0 molecular modeling application All bits and pieces, and all software appears to work. Camiel From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sat Nov 10 10:24:39 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 17:24:39 +0100 Subject: VAX 9440 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1CF6985A-D071-4D89-BBF5-ED6FC70F71BE@vmssoftware.com> Amazing rescue! Hope nothing breaks. ?On 11/8/18, 3:55 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Evan Koblentz via cctalk" wrote: The VCF museum took delivery of a VAX 9440 today. It arrived in two 28-foot trailers. Here's our forklift driver beginning to unload the first truck: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E-Q5xrsYXyjrZEZh92xIBhlStvvNUcRV/view?usp=sharing Here's a teaser picture of the main cabinet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bEpSMzBEeOvuDnzPQ9Npc7iYmDhjZq8c/view?usp=sharing The full system is 30-40 feet long when it's all set up! It is in pristine condition and was in service at a defense contractor until a couple of months ago. Rumor has it that we arranged for another one to land in Dave McGuire's Large Scale Systems Museum collection, and a third to be with Bob Roswell's System Source collection. :) Perhaps they'll post updates too! From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sat Nov 10 12:12:49 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 19:12:49 +0100 Subject: Looking for optical grid mouse pad In-Reply-To: References: <54AAC229-B5D8-4F7B-9E15-EE3A2AEFBC9B@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: On 11/10/18, 6:49 PM, "Rico Pajarola" wrote: I have tried to print my own mousepad, but the mouse only works in the y direction on it. there were 2 versions of that mousepad, and the symptom of using the wrong one was that the mouse would only move in one direction. There was another version of the print-it-yourself mouse pad that's essentially just white noise, have you tried that? I know I need the one with the grid, because it?s shown in the documentation. I have just created and printed a simple grid, with two lines per millimeter. If someone has already created one that you can download and print that works, that would be great. Camiel From cctalk at snarc.net Sat Nov 10 17:47:30 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 18:47:30 -0500 Subject: VAX 9440 In-Reply-To: <1CF6985A-D071-4D89-BBF5-ED6FC70F71BE@vmssoftware.com> References: <1CF6985A-D071-4D89-BBF5-ED6FC70F71BE@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: > Amazing rescue! Hope nothing breaks. Right now I'm just happy no * people * broke when it was delivered! Unloading it from two 28-foot trailers required five people, two pallet jacks, and a forklift. From cctalk at snarc.net Sat Nov 10 17:43:38 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 18:43:38 -0500 Subject: VAX 9440 In-Reply-To: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4b1b7d5f-bc8b-0701-e6bb-0048983328d7@snarc.net> > That is a behemoth!! > > Did you ger that huge powerforming thingy that goes > with it? I'm told that we got * everything *. > Are you crazy enough to atempt a power-up? Yes. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 10 22:19:01 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 04:19:01 +0000 Subject: Looking for optical grid mouse pad In-Reply-To: <54AAC229-B5D8-4F7B-9E15-EE3A2AEFBC9B@vmssoftware.com> References: <54AAC229-B5D8-4F7B-9E15-EE3A2AEFBC9B@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: Carmiel you lucky dog! How come you get TWO Titan's, all I want is ONE. I had one for about a year after it came out. I convinced their sales to park it in my office next to NASA JSC while we both were entertaining customers. I did some visualization work using Dore' and AVS. recently, I have built Dore' on a BSD and Linux box, and got the 'Flag' and 'Trunk' demos working. Let me know how you are coming, and the moment you run out of space for one of these, let me know. Randy ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 8:24 AM To: cctech Subject: Looking for optical grid mouse pad Hello everyone, A week ago, I took possession of a second Ardent Titan graphics supercomputer, and unlike the other Titan, this one is almost complete. There is one tiny bit missing, and that is a mouse pad. The mouse used with this systems is a Mouse Systems M4 variant (M4Q), and it does not appear to be a normal serial mouse. So, if anyone has one of those reflective mousepads with a grid of fine blue and grey lines that they don?t need, I?d be very happy to have it. I have tried to print my own mousepad, but the mouse only works in the y direction on it. For those who want to know, the Titan is outfitted as follows: 2 x Titan P3 vector processors (using a MIPS R3000 for scalar operations) 2 x 64 MB main memory Extended G2 Graphics 3 Maxtor 760 MB disks QIC-120 tapedrive 19? trinitron monitor with stereo bezel and 3d glasses Keyboard, mouse, knob box Titan OS 4.2 installed (plus version 3.0, 4.1, and 4.2 installation tapes) Dore, AVS, and PHIGS+ graphics environments Vectorizing FORTRAN compiler with LINPACK, EISPACK, and FFT libraries Matlab-Pro 3.5 (the Titan was the only computer ever that had Matlab as part of its bundled programs) Biodesign Biograf 3.0 molecular modeling application All bits and pieces, and all software appears to work. Camiel From j_hoppe at t-online.de Mon Nov 12 07:33:07 2018 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 14:33:07 +0100 Subject: UniBone - access DEC PDP-11 UNIBUS under Linux Message-ID: <1bee41af-8a8b-ee1d-5dc9-b160eef42a63@t-online.de> Guys, I'm about to finish another project: "UniBone" - a Linux-to-UNIBUS bridge, based on the BeagleBone Black. It is supposed to be a development platform for device emulation. At the moment it can emulate memory, emulate an RL11 controller with 4 RL drives attached, and act as UNIBUS hardware test adapter. There are some web pages at http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone And I'll show it on VCFE.CH in Zurich on Nov 24/25,? plugged into a PDP-11/05. Enjoy, Joerg From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Nov 12 15:43:29 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:43:29 -0500 Subject: Bill Godbout In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> "drrt1968 at gmail.com" posted on AFC this morning that Bill died in the >> Camp fire in Northern California on Thursday. >> Has anyone else heard about this? > > Google has no mention.? Yet. > How can we confirm? I emailed (on behalf of VCF) the person who posted it there but haven't yet heard back. From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Nov 12 17:53:42 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 18:53:42 -0500 Subject: Update re: Bill Godbout Message-ID: <45dc2b3b-fa4a-09dc-d33b-a13c0007c5b1@snarc.net> I communicated with the person who posted on alt.folklore.computers. The person is a close relative of Bill's; thus, the information about his tragic passing is true/confirmed. The person added, "He was living in Oreville, California and perished in his home on Thursday, Nov. 8. ... Bill was a great man, and THE smartest person I've ever known." Please do not disturb the AFC poster as they're in mourning. ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Nov 12 18:33:07 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 19:33:07 -0500 Subject: Update re: Bill Godbout In-Reply-To: <45dc2b3b-fa4a-09dc-d33b-a13c0007c5b1@snarc.net> References: <45dc2b3b-fa4a-09dc-d33b-a13c0007c5b1@snarc.net> Message-ID: <987fce04-95d7-3fc5-26ff-0f27c882a1e9@snarc.net> Here is a GoFundMe started by Bill's son: https://www.gofundme.com/godbouttuckcampfirerelieffund From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Nov 13 11:00:11 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:00:11 -0500 Subject: Full story about Bill Godbout Message-ID: http://vcfed.org/wp/2018/11/13/r-i-p-bill-godbout-79/ ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Nov 11 23:00:11 2018 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 21:00:11 -0800 Subject: Rugged Nova/1601 In-Reply-To: <1541492555240.null> References: <1541492555240.null> Message-ID: <299b8409-77bf-3816-d2f2-96bd0e294dd8@mainecoon.com> On 11/6/18 1:22 AM, erik--- via cctech wrote: > Yes, lot of metal inside those Rolms. Although all Aluminium, they > are veeery heavy and I always wondered how many of them also have > been used in airborne applications, where weight is an issue ;-) One of the more interesting problems we faced at ROLM MSC (as opposed to the telecom side) was the fact that all hardware was designed to be tri-service. Salt spray and fungal resistance required that the cases be sealed with thermal frames to conduct heat to external heat exchangers, but that created interesting issues when sticking the box on an aircraft (but was a lifesaver with disk drives, as otherwise flying heads had a tendency to crash with altitude). The chassis ended up being quite heavy due to the hammer and drop tests (as others have noted, intended to simulate the shock of depth charges), as well as the shaker table tests (driven by a pair of Really Freaking Big McIntosh audio amps). The result of all of this was that the machines tended to be much heavier and thermally complex than they the might have needed to be for the Air Force, but the desire for commonality in some weapons systems (GLCM/SLCM comes to mind) across services made the choice a good one. As for the 1601 (aka AN/UYK-12(V)), it very much did exist and was exhibited in 1969 at the Fall Joint Computer Conference, one year after the Nova took its bow, running the same demo software. It was deployed as part of the AN/ALR-46 Radar warning system, which was found on the B-52, F-4 and F-111 Note that even the 1601 was a ROLM-specific design that implemented the DG instruction set under license. ROLM deviated from this somewhat with the 1602 and 1666, bolting in their own extensions to the ISA. The one-half-ATR chassis MSC-14 is actually a punch, where the S/140 prints and microcode were used more or less verbatim (although some tweaks were ultimately needed due to timing issues arising from the different card form factors); the Hawk was very much a ROLM-specific design and caused us software types some fits, because the the microcode guys frequently missed the "reserved, must be zero" and "reserved, may be zero" notes in Wallach's Eagle Architecture doc (at one point they proposed a loop-in-microcode approach to implementing the purge ATU instruction because it only showed up twice in the AOS/VS code base, until it was pointed out that the damn thing was executed on every context switch...) -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Mon Nov 12 14:32:26 2018 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 20:32:26 +0000 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <20181112200431.1CA6018C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181112200431.1CA6018C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Dec may have used a customized font. You could recreate it fairly easily using a font utility like Fontographer (my favorite... Really easy to use) or Font lab. They allow you to take a font that you like and modify the different glyphs to your taste. Wayne > On Nov 12, 2018, at 12:04 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > So, anyone happen to know the font used in DEC's indicator panels: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html > > or, at least, a very close match? > > For mockups we're doing, Dave B is using 'DejaVu Sans', but that's not a > really close match: the vertical bars are wider than in the DEC font, where > the verticals and horizontals are the same width. > > It would be nice to have a closer match when we go to turn out replicas. > (We're just about settled on the format for the QSIC RKV11-F/RPV11-D panels.) > > Noel > From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Tue Nov 13 09:44:43 2018 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (Stephen Merrony) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 16:44:43 +0100 Subject: Any News from the Nova @ 50 Event? Message-ID: <001a01d47b67$cc7b5630$65720290$@stephenmerrony.co.uk> I saw a brief positive post on Facebook, but nothing else. Any chance someone could write it up? Also, were there any announcements re. licensing etc? Steve --- Stephen Merrony From rtomek at ceti.pl Sun Nov 11 18:13:46 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 01:13:46 +0100 Subject: Looking for optical grid mouse pad In-Reply-To: References: <54AAC229-B5D8-4F7B-9E15-EE3A2AEFBC9B@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: <20181112001346.GA4106@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 07:12:49PM +0100, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech wrote: > On 11/10/18, 6:49 PM, "Rico Pajarola" wrote: > > > > I have tried to print my own mousepad, but the mouse only works in > the y direction on it. > > there were 2 versions of that mousepad, and the symptom of using the > wrong one was that the mouse would only move in one direction. Out of curiosity, would it work if you printed this one-directional grid on a translucent plastic and overlaid it on top of white paper sheet? If yes, then would it work if you printed two such translucent plastic grids and ovelaid them one on the other turned 90 degrees and that on white paper? -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 15:30:09 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 14:30:09 -0700 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 1:47 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 4:08 AM Eric Smith wrote: > > I spent some time reverse-engineering the firmware. There is only one > > undocumented opcode, decimal 10, and I haven't yet figured out what it > > does, but it definitely doesn't format a tape. > > Is Opcode #10 the "Enter MRSP Mode" or is that something else? > I'm still not sure what it does, but it was present in the early 23-089e2 firmware, and gone (acts as no-op) in the later 23-294e2 and 23-389e2 firmware versions. MRSP mode requires a command 12 (hexadecimal?) according to this page: http://www.willsworks.net/pdp-11/tu58-emu but neither the 23-089e2 nor 23-389e2 firmware seem to include that. I haven't checked 23-294e2. Maybe there are other firmware versions that include the Enter MRSP command, or maybe I'm not correctly understanding how the command packet parsing works in the firmware. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 15:31:19 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 14:31:19 -0700 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Mark J. Blair (NF6X) has a git repo with various TU58 firmware disassemblies here: https://gitlab.com/NF6X_Retrocomputing/tu58firmware From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 15:43:02 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 16:43:02 -0500 Subject: Any News from the Nova @ 50 Event? In-Reply-To: <001a01d47b67$cc7b5630$65720290$@stephenmerrony.co.uk> References: <001a01d47b67$cc7b5630$65720290$@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: > Any chance someone could write it up? Pending approval and editing, I will release some video footage I took on my Youtube channel, Uniservo. No people, no discussion, just a walkaround of the hardware exhibits. There was real 4K video being shot (terabytes of it!) by professionals, but I do not know what the final plans of that footage will be. > Also, were there any announcements re. licensing etc? At some point there will be an official announcement, so I will refrain from saying what it was. I think Wild Hare is still in deep decompression mode. You had to be there... -- Will From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 15:52:27 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 16:52:27 -0500 Subject: VAX 9440 In-Reply-To: <61668af5-f8a9-8e3e-4e2d-d56dd2e5e94d@snarc.net> References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> <61668af5-f8a9-8e3e-4e2d-d56dd2e5e94d@snarc.net> Message-ID: I believe that a mini version of the VAX 9000 consisting of the main CPU rack can be set up for display, plus photos / posters of a full setup in the background. Add a terminal or two and we can demo the 9000 without breaking the bank. I did not check but even a few drives would suffice to demo the unit. What would be more impressive is not how many racks we get up and running but whether we network it and put the CPUs to work to do something interesting. We may even be able to bypass the huge DC power unit and just "plug in" each CPU directly using lower-AMP mains. I was inspecting the 9000 at System Source (Baltimore) this weekend, it's the same as what is at VCFed in New Jersey. I think if we keep it small we can actually use the 9000 without having to expand what power is already available at System Source or VCFed museum. Dave's LSSM may have enough to power everything as originally intended. I look forward to seeing that, too next time I go to Pittsburgh. I am lucky to live in between these three places. MyVAX 4000-705 is a baby compared with these 9000's but in the end they're the compatible and can talk to each other. It would be fun if we spent some time connecting our various VAXenz on a given day, an international event or something b On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 4:40 PM Evan Koblentz via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > The question is probably, could they afford the power bill? We have a > bunch of Crays and CDCs at the Computer History Museum, and if they were > operational, we'd probably have to take up a special very-large-hat-passing > collection > > http://vcfed.org/wp/contribute/ > > :) > From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Nov 13 15:55:58 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 16:55:58 -0500 Subject: bill was my first "real" computer comoany customer" Message-ID: <1670f12ed8d-1ec3-25cb@webjas-vad235.srv.aolmail.net> A BILL GODBOUT TALE? C-? Ed Sharpe? Archivist? for SMECC BEWARE THIS NARTIVE WANDERS>? A very old friend Bill Godbout of the s100 computer days and my first real commercial buyer of any large quantity of surplus electronics material from me when I went into the early part of my computer store and surplus electronics business was burned in the fire in Paradise I have been informed. Very sad - He was a great guy - I met him at a computer fair in as I remember San Jose California ? I believe it was at the fairgrounds ? (Fair was run by a pleasant guy (was his name Craig or? Can someone clarify?) with the neatest 59 El Camino Chevy Truck (Prior to this I had never seen a ?59 before (I would love one!) Steve Beleauh (sp?) in High School had a ?64 ) were I had taken mainly a bunch of odds and ends but also some 8 inch floppy disc power supplies that Intel had scrapped at Empire metals ( Gary and Ray no doubt had something to do with those ending up there ? Hi guys!) and a box of AC power cords and some parts and stuff now what would be considered scrap too....Bill Godbout had set up to sell. (of course, he had all kids of computer stuff his company produced and other things he was a vendor for... He was a big guy in the BIZ in those days, We of course had some power cords and Bill and I when talking got on the topic of power cords for computers ... the new style...like all out pcs use now. ( the prior version on one end the normal 3 prog plug in the wall plug and the other had oval ends and round pins... and were available all over but not so the "NEW" style ( like we use now) I ended up with many many palate loads ITT Courier Terminal Company in Tempe Arizona ( They made IBM clone cluster terminal system -? but unlike? the? IBM? terminals? had? non-clicking? keyboards)) was surplussing ... and had calculated the quantity and cost carefully and beat the Finkelstein Brothers -> Mhz Electronics and Semiconductor Surplus... Richard at MHz still alive Steve at Semi Passed away)... ALAS!! The brothers miscalculated or used that as a reason for not getting the lot in later conversations, but It set us up with more damn cords that I ever imagined I could even sell. ? ANYWAY... First deal I did with him.... Telling Bill Godbout of all these cords he says ... well... "TRUST ME" ... "ship them to me and on receipt I will send you a check!" and then he jokes about I shouldn?t trust anyone in this business saying TRUST ME! But I did and true to his word his check arrived which set me up with enough cash to make many other great buys of Minicomputers, parts and terminals as I started out. Actually I think that is were the money came from to buy my first PDP-8 from Richard at MHz Electronics he had laying about. It was a 8M or 8F like an 8E with omnibus but short case so only accepting one Buss backplane and it used LEDS in the front panel vs the light bulbs the 8E used. (I was later able to sell this for a large sum thus? increasing the ?Computer Exchange? working capital. Thanks Bill. You will always be in our book as one of the original good guys.... and thanks for being someone I could trust in dealings. God in Heaven... Take good care of old Bill for me... From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 16:02:52 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 17:02:52 -0500 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5be2dae9-765d-c4aa-f1a9-a2ceb4c46a49@gmail.com> On 11/13/2018 03:46 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 4:08 AM Eric Smith wrote: >>> It is remotely possible that there's an undocumented "format" command >>> in the protocol. However, I've heard multiple people claim that >>> special firmware was required. >> I spent some time reverse-engineering the firmware. There is only one >> undocumented opcode, decimal 10, and I haven't yet figured out what it >> does, but it definitely doesn't format a tape. > Is Opcode #10 the "Enter MRSP Mode" or is that something else? > > -ethan Same here, I asked while I was at DEC and the designer said need a special rig to do that and the important things was EOT and BOToptical sensors and the code with the basic patterns.? The TU58 does not have an EOT or BOT sensor as it detects end marks on the tape. I think using disassembled code and adding the sensors its possible to put down the marks needed. Never explored it fully to prove that.? It was easier to make a RAM-based TU58 work alike and at least one company did a floppy based TU58 work alike. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 13 16:15:00 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 14:15:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Swap clarification (Was: bill was my first "real" computer comoany customer" In-Reply-To: <1670f12ed8d-1ec3-25cb@webjas-vad235.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1670f12ed8d-1ec3-25cb@webjas-vad235.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: > computer fair in as I remember San Jose California ? I believe it was > at the fairgrounds ? (Fair was run by a pleasant guy (was his name > Craig or? Can someone clarify?) "Computer Swap America" run by John Craig. Santa Clara County Fairgrounds 344 Tully Road nice El Camino(s?) Opened to public at 10:00 AM, by which time, the vendors had been buying each others stuff for quite a while. "It's worth getting a vendor table, just for the early admission!" From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Nov 13 16:37:53 2018 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 17:37:53 -0500 Subject: Swap clarification (Was: bill was my first "real" computer comoany customer" Message-ID: <08da01d47ba1$84997e70$8dcc7b50$@verizon.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > Opened to public at 10:00 AM, by which time, the vendors had been buying > each others stuff for quite a while. "It's worth getting a vendor table, > just for the early admission!" That's true for just about any hamfest/swap meet, isn't it? Buy stuff right out of the back of the truck as it is unloaded. Bill S. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From rp at servium.ch Tue Nov 13 16:39:52 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 23:39:52 +0100 Subject: Looking for optical grid mouse pad In-Reply-To: <20181112001346.GA4106@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <54AAC229-B5D8-4F7B-9E15-EE3A2AEFBC9B@vmssoftware.com> <20181112001346.GA4106@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:32 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 07:12:49PM +0100, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech > wrote: > > On 11/10/18, 6:49 PM, "Rico Pajarola" wrote: > > > > > > > > I have tried to print my own mousepad, but the mouse only works in > > the y direction on it. > > > > there were 2 versions of that mousepad, and the symptom of using the > > wrong one was that the mouse would only move in one direction. > > Out of curiosity, would it work if you printed this one-directional > grid on a translucent plastic and overlaid it on top of white paper > sheet? If yes, then would it work if you printed two such translucent > plastic grids and ovelaid them one on the other turned 90 degrees and > that on white paper? > I never tried, but I don't think this would work. AIUI, it has a minimum and a maximum spacing for the lines. The white noise sheet "works" because some the black-white-black transitions come with the right spacing, no matter what that spacing is (it has to be the right order of magnitude, and it doesn't work as well as the real thing). Crumpled tin-foil has been reported to work, too. > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** > From rp at servium.ch Tue Nov 13 16:39:52 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 23:39:52 +0100 Subject: Looking for optical grid mouse pad In-Reply-To: <20181112001346.GA4106@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <54AAC229-B5D8-4F7B-9E15-EE3A2AEFBC9B@vmssoftware.com> <20181112001346.GA4106@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:32 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 07:12:49PM +0100, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech > wrote: > > On 11/10/18, 6:49 PM, "Rico Pajarola" wrote: > > > > > > > > I have tried to print my own mousepad, but the mouse only works in > > the y direction on it. > > > > there were 2 versions of that mousepad, and the symptom of using the > > wrong one was that the mouse would only move in one direction. > > Out of curiosity, would it work if you printed this one-directional > grid on a translucent plastic and overlaid it on top of white paper > sheet? If yes, then would it work if you printed two such translucent > plastic grids and ovelaid them one on the other turned 90 degrees and > that on white paper? > I never tried, but I don't think this would work. AIUI, it has a minimum and a maximum spacing for the lines. The white noise sheet "works" because some the black-white-black transitions come with the right spacing, no matter what that spacing is (it has to be the right order of magnitude, and it doesn't work as well as the real thing). Crumpled tin-foil has been reported to work, too. > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Nov 13 17:04:05 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:04:05 +1100 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <5BEAF7C5.7030804@pico-systems.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181114100405.010d7948@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 10:11 AM 13/11/2018 -0600, you wrote: >On 11/12/2018 08:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >> IFF DEC used a commercial font, then it should be possible >> to find it. >> >> But, it is extremely likely that they did NOT use a >> commercial font, and either had their graphics art people >> draw the characters as needed, or used reference patterns >> of their own that are NOT incorporated into a computer font. >> Were these DEC "fonts" fully formed, or a very fine bit >> pattern? >> >Well, how DID they make panels? I'm guessing that in the >beginning, it was all done manually with photo/optical >technology, the same stuff they used to make boards. Also, >used to screen print part numbers on sheet metal, power >supply parts, etc. So, they may have gotten pre-made >letters on some kind of carrier sheet, and transferred them >to a mylar sheet, and then photographically reproduced that >onto a master phototool, which was then used to make the >silk screen. This would be all standard technology to >anybody making PC boards in the 1960's - 1970's. > >While DEC got big enough to do this all in house or have one >of the providers in this area make it for them, they also >might have just picked a font they liked from somebody's >catalog. A LOT of advertising signage and all sorts of >graphics arts stuff was done by hand with photographic >technology at that time. Bishop Graphics comes to mind as a >provider of transferable lettering and of course, DIP >component patterns and such. > >I suspect that they didn't get into any digital graphics >technology until at least the later DEC-10 systems, so mid >1970's. > >Jon My mother was a commercial artist in those days, doing advertising, brochures, book layouts, illustrations, etc. And yes, you are right. For jobs with small amounts of text with various fonts they did it by hand using stick-down letters rub-transferred from sheets of letters. Then the offset printing sheets were produced photographically from the artist's layouts. Which incidentally allowed scaling, so the original stick-down fonts didn't have to be huge. Also it allowed distortion in X or Y, so standard fonts could be squished or stretched. Only they didn't use clear mylar film, just white card. Since unlike PCB production there were not such tight dimensional constraints. Also costs needed to be low. For instance that http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/fonts/font_2.png is very close to Eurostile that has been vertically squashed, blurred slightly to round line ends, and the slash inked by hand. Ref: http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/fonts/20181114_1680_eurostile.png (photo fromm book 'Computer type, M. Rogondino, 1991, pg 142.) You could mix hand-inked lettering with Letraset lettering since the photo-reproduction was forgiving of slight blemishes on the white and black. They saturated out. One company making the sheets of transfer lettering was Letraset. I recall using those films a few times in my teens (late 1960s) to put nice lettering on the faces of moving coil meters. I used Bishop tapes and pads for PCB layout a lot back then. They had some lettering but I don't think variety of fonts was their thing. Letraset had large catalogs of the fonts they had available. I'll see if I can find one of their catalogs at my mum's place. She still has all her art gear, including boxes of those lettering sheets. Btw, that post of mine never showed up. So some on the list saw it but it never reached me in Oz. Presumably some net filter didn't like the included links (to font source sites.) I've placed the text here: http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/fonts/2018113_to_cctalk.txt Guy From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Nov 13 17:15:35 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 15:15:35 -0800 Subject: Got a Rainbow 100 and ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8f53dab4-8716-e086-083e-0ba45b75fe1c@snowmoose.com> On 11/10/18 10:47 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > Today I picked up a Rainbow 100. The seller bought it new for a > specific need and he says that it had been sitting in his barn since > '84. It looks like it was a dry barn because things look pretty clean > for the most part aside from a thick layer of dust on everything. > > What I got was the system unit, a VR201 monitor, a keyboard, a > vertical deskside stand for the system unit, and a LQP02 daisy wheel > printer. I also got the MS-DOS and CP/M doc and software slip cover > boxes. The CP/M disk box is still sealed and the CP/M docs are still > in shrink wrap. The specific need that the seller bought it for > involved MS-DOS, not CP/M. > > I last saw a Rainbow 100 in college around the time that the seller > stopped using this system, so I am getting familiar with it now. I > haven't powered anything on yet. > > ... > > 2. The belt that moves the print head is dried out and looks like, if > the motor put any load on the belt, it will fail. Is any kind of > replacement available? > In case anyone else has a similar issue (including people searching the list archives in the future) ... I found a replacement for the belt on the LQP02. The belt is 10mm wide and the tooth pitch is 2mm. It was tricky to measure since, when I touched a tooth with the calipers, the tooth would break off or disintegrate. Using those parameters, I searched and found "BALITENSEN 5 Meter GT2 Open Timing Belt 10mm Wide 2mm Pitch for CNC 3D Printer Mendel Rostock Reprap" on Amazon. The old belt is under 37" long, so this 5 meter long piece that I got was long enough for a couple spares. I got the belt today. Cut a piece to length, installed it in the printer, and powered the printer up. The belt works so far. alan From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Nov 13 17:19:05 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 18:19:05 -0500 Subject: Swap clarification (Was: bill was my first "real" computer comoany customer" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1670f5f087b-1ec3-5fff@webjas-vac048.srv.aolmail.net> YES!? John? Craig! Thank? you? ?for the? brain? refresh! ? how many shows a? year? does? he? do? Ed# ? In a message dated 11/13/2018 3:15:02 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cisin at xenosoft.com writes: ? > computer fair in as I remember San Jose California ? I believe it was > at the fairgrounds ? (Fair was run by a pleasant guy (was his name > Craig or? Can someone clarify?) "Computer Swap America" run by John Craig. Santa Clara County Fairgrounds 344 Tully Road nice El Camino(s?) Opened to public at 10:00 AM, by which time, the vendors had been buying each others stuff for quite a while. "It's worth getting a vendor table, just for the early admission!" From jim.manley at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 17:32:35 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 16:32:35 -0700 Subject: desoldering (was Re: VAX 9440) In-Reply-To: References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> <1542036274281.2316@w2hx.com> <5ED47FC8-D923-403B-8BF5-EEDDC13F7692@nf6x.net> Message-ID: All this yammering about fancy desoldering gizmos harkens back memories of a "desoldering station" consisting of a hot soldering iron ... made of a hefty amount of copper (the kind you put in a pit of fire to heat up!) and a long, skinny screwdriver, or two, used to _very_ gently pry up ICs from each end while you ran the iron along the pins, loosening the IC a bit at a time until it popped loose. Clearing the pin holes of solder involved blowing through them as you heated up the pads ... with your breath, hopefully before the pads debonded from the PC board! There's no skill involved any more with the fancy-schmancy stuff ... That also harkens back to my days in the Navy when I would go visit the local Defense Reutilization and Marketing Office (DRMO), previously just called "The Dump". That's where all sorts of DoD-owned military and commercial grade equipment was sent as soon as the new models came along that the Air Force always got first (it helps when you don't have to drive your runways full of aircraft and fuel all over the world, like we do in the Navy!). Most of the Navy stuff showed up when ships got decommissioned ... a typical ship can stay in service for four or five decades, soooo ... anyone need any vacuum tubes, or a mechanical fire-control computer??? Do you know why the Air Force always builds the Officers Club first, and the runways last, on a new base? Congress will _always_ approve more money to finish a runway on a typically horribly-underbid DoD contract (that their brothers-in-law always seem to be involved with)! Anyway, as I was perusing the offerings, I wandered around a corner and there was a guy sitting over what can only be described as a medieval blacksmith's furnace. He was recovering the gold and other precious metals from boards and ICs by basically heating everything and collecting the metals as they dribbled out of the cracking, charring non-metals! He appeared to be positioning the materials over time to achieve various melting temperatures, which allowed him to pretty accurately collect each metal in sequence as the materials heated up. I can only wonder whether he wound up with a medical retirement, as I don't recall him wearing any kind of respirator, and it was being done in a large warehouse structure. Come to think of it, I'm surprised _I_ didn't wind up with a medical retirement, given the amount of time I spent in those places finding all sorts of great stuff! Speaking of inheriting Air Force hand-me-downs, a little-known factoid is that Admiral Grace Hopper (co-author of COBOL and an operator of the Harvard Mark IV) used to send her enlisted people around the Pentagon in the evenings to snag things left in the halls by Air Force offices to be carted off by the janitors. That included all of the furniture in her basement-level office and even the American Flag there (complete with heavy stand and oak pole with an eagle atop it). Few able-bodied military men escorted by armed guards ever wandered around in the basement of the Pentagon because of the dank, poorly lit (if at all) corridors, let alone a woman. However, Admiral Hopper wasn't just any woman, and there are rumors that the ne'er-do-wells scattered like cockroaches when they heard her coming (and that was easy to do, as she was always instructing someone about something very useful in conversations). I still have a Nanosecond piece of ~11.2-inch insulated 22-gauge solid wire that she handed out at her presentations - it's even signed, which means it has little marks that correspond to where her signature crossed its horizontal midpoint! She originally used them to explain to MBA-degreed flag officers why there was a noticeable delay between the then-new geosynchronous communications satellites located about 22,300 miles in altitude over the Equator, and satellite ground stations. She would show them a Nanosecond wire (the distance it would take for an electromagnetic wave to travel at the speed of light in one nanosecond) and then move it along an imaginary line-of-sight from a ground station to a satellite and start counting, "One nanosecond ... two nanoseconds ... three nanoseconds ... " until the audience members all exhibited the "Ah-HA!" moment on their faces. Then, she would repeat it along another path between the satellite and another ground station. Ain't computing history great??? All the Best, Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 13 17:33:26 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 15:33:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Swap clarification (Was: bill was my first "real" computer comoany customer" In-Reply-To: <1670f5f087b-1ec3-5fff@webjas-vac048.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1670f5f087b-1ec3-5fff@webjas-vac048.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: > "Computer Swap America" run by John Craig. Santa Clara County Fairgrounds > 344 Tully Road nice El Camino(s?) > Opened to public at 10:00 AM, by which time, the vendors had been buying > each others stuff for quite a while. "It's worth getting a vendor table, > just for the early admission!" On Tue, 13 Nov 2018, ED SHARPE wrote: > YES!?? John?? Craig! > Thank?? you?? ??for the?? brain?? refresh! > how many shows a?? year?? does?? he?? do? I don't think that he has done one in MANY years. 40 years ago, he was doing them twice a year. Then "Northwest Computer Swap" started holding shows at San Mateo Fairgrounds. One time, Shugart showed up with a semi of "administrative returns" I bought a lot of my first SA300's, SA455, SA465, SA475 Then quite a few others. But, asian sellers of new computer stuff at good discounts began to be present at all of the shows, in increasing numbers. Eventually, there was very little used stuff anywhere other than the Foothill College Swap on second Saturday of each month. (outdoor parking lot, started before dawn, even in the rain) I think that it eventually moved to DeAnza? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From edcross at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 17:37:58 2018 From: edcross at gmail.com (Ed C.) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 00:37:58 +0100 Subject: desoldering (was Re: VAX 9440) In-Reply-To: References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> <1542036274281.2316@w2hx.com> <5ED47FC8-D923-403B-8BF5-EEDDC13F7692@nf6x.net> Message-ID: I have the combo unit including solder. I do not have any other experience with any high-end ware but I can say that this unit does all I need and does it well. On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 7:17 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 11/13/18 7:38 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > > > Instead, I use two pencil-type irons, one in each hand, working under > > a stereo microscope. The tips are much better, and manipulating each > > tip independently provides great control of what's going on. Only > > drawback is that if you want to use a fancy, expensive iron, now you > > get to buy two of them. If you're tempted by a soldering station with > > two or more outputs, make sure that it can drive both simultaneously. > > There are dual-output stations that have two outputs but can only run > > one at a time, as well as ones which can drive two irons at once. > > After seeing the video on the ZD-985 some years ago on Dave's EEVBlog: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft50m8UU5WQ > > I've been wondering if it's a worthwhile tool. Does anyone have one of > these things? > > --Chuck > > From john at ziaspace.com Tue Nov 13 17:39:44 2018 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 23:39:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Bill Godbout In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://vcfed.org/wp/2018/11/13/r-i-p-bill-godbout-79/ :( From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Nov 13 18:01:13 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 19:01:13 -0500 Subject: Swap clarification (Was: bill was my first "real" computer comoany customer" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1670f85999f-1ec3-5e8e@webjas-vab116.srv.aolmail.net> Ok? ?that? i? ?what? I? remember? too.... ? The? first one? was? great?? I? went? later? one? time? ?years? later and? yea? the? feel had? changed...? the? 2ed? had? no stacks? of? New? varian 620? front panels and chassis!? ? surplus? and? duck... ? wonder if? he? still has? the? 59? el camino?? ?it? was? WONDERFUL! ? In a message dated 11/13/2018 4:33:28 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cisin at xenosoft.com writes: ? On Tue, 13 Nov 2018, ED SHARPE wrote: > YES!? John? Craig! > Thank? you? ?for the? brain? refresh! > how many shows a? year? does? he? do? I don't think that he has done one in MANY years. 40 years ago, he was doing them twice a year. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 13 18:06:03 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 16:06:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Remembering Bill Godbout In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When I upgraded my first TRS80 from 4K to 16K, it was with 4116s from Godbout. The next time that I went in there, he had packaged up a whole bunch of 4116s into groups of 8 with a piece of paper giving directions for TRS80 installation. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 13 19:18:32 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 17:18:32 -0800 Subject: Looking for optical grid mouse pad In-Reply-To: References: <54AAC229-B5D8-4F7B-9E15-EE3A2AEFBC9B@vmssoftware.com> <20181112001346.GA4106@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <7ba3eec4-5253-9d6e-a5a0-c629e82f3db6@bitsavers.org> here's one https://www.ebay.com/itm/192719727693 do you know if it needs a original coarse or fine grid pad? I'm surprised you don't have any Sun optical mice kicking around. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 13 20:27:30 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 20:27:30 -0600 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181113125923.010d70a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5BEAF7C5.7030804@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5BEB8812.9010200@pico-systems.com> On 11/13/2018 10:28 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 17:12, Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > >> Well, how DID they make panels? > Letraset? :-) > Yes, thanks, that was another brand of this technology! Jon From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 20:32:18 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 21:32:18 -0500 Subject: Looking for optical grid mouse pad In-Reply-To: References: <54AAC229-B5D8-4F7B-9E15-EE3A2AEFBC9B@vmssoftware.com> <20181112001346.GA4106@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: There's a blue-and-black grid, and an all-black grid, at least with Sun mice. Mice that work on one won't work on the other. At least with the blue-and-black grid, spacing didn't seem to matter -- I've got three sizes of spacing, all three work with the mice that support it. Not sure if it applies to your situation, but the Mouse Systems mice with two holes, one emitting red light, work with the blue-and-black pads, and the newer Sun mice with a single hole works on the black grid. The blue-and-black grid looks metallic blue until you take a close look with a lighted magnifier. Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 5:40 PM Rico Pajarola via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:32 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 07:12:49PM +0100, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech > > wrote: > > > On 11/10/18, 6:49 PM, "Rico Pajarola" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have tried to print my own mousepad, but the mouse only works in > > > the y direction on it. > > > > > > there were 2 versions of that mousepad, and the symptom of using the > > > wrong one was that the mouse would only move in one direction. > > > > Out of curiosity, would it work if you printed this one-directional > > grid on a translucent plastic and overlaid it on top of white paper > > sheet? If yes, then would it work if you printed two such translucent > > plastic grids and ovelaid them one on the other turned 90 degrees and > > that on white paper? > > > I never tried, but I don't think this would work. AIUI, it has a minimum > and a maximum spacing for the lines. > > The white noise sheet "works" because some the black-white-black > transitions come with the right spacing, no matter what that spacing is (it > has to be the right order of magnitude, and it doesn't work as well as the > real thing). Crumpled tin-foil has been reported to work, too. > > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Tomasz Rola > > > > -- > > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > > ** ** > > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** > > > From jason at smbfc.net Wed Nov 14 00:05:54 2018 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 22:05:54 -0800 Subject: Swap clarification (Was: bill was my first "real" computer comoany customer" In-Reply-To: <08da01d47ba1$84997e70$8dcc7b50$@verizon.net> References: <08da01d47ba1$84997e70$8dcc7b50$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <59793dec-d01d-bef7-eb5f-de6ea5d5ae61@smbfc.net> On 11/13/18 2:37 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Opened to public at 10:00 AM, by which time, the vendors had been buying >> each others stuff for quite a while. "It's worth getting a vendor table, >> just for the early admission!" > That's true for just about any hamfest/swap meet, isn't it? Buy stuff right > out > > of the back of the truck as it is unloaded. > > > > Bill S. My favorite thing is watching someone buy a thing from one table at a pretty good deal, then a few rows later, see that same guy at his own table, re-selling that same thing for 2x the price. --Jason From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 07:25:55 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:25:55 -0500 Subject: desoldering (was Re: VAX 9440) In-Reply-To: References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> <1542036274281.2316@w2hx.com> <5ED47FC8-D923-403B-8BF5-EEDDC13F7692@nf6x.net> Message-ID: Another Hakko 472D owner here. Got mine in pieces as used/nonworking. They're easy to rebuild. I've used the 808s at workshops/friends' places, there's no comparison IMO. I use the "pencil" style handpiece, we had the "gun" style at a previous job, I definitely like the "pencil" style better. Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 6:38 PM Ed C. via cctalk wrote: > I have the combo unit including solder. I do not have any other experience > with any high-end ware but I can say that this unit does all I need and > does it well. > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 7:17 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 11/13/18 7:38 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Instead, I use two pencil-type irons, one in each hand, working under > > > a stereo microscope. The tips are much better, and manipulating each > > > tip independently provides great control of what's going on. Only > > > drawback is that if you want to use a fancy, expensive iron, now you > > > get to buy two of them. If you're tempted by a soldering station with > > > two or more outputs, make sure that it can drive both simultaneously. > > > There are dual-output stations that have two outputs but can only run > > > one at a time, as well as ones which can drive two irons at once. > > > > After seeing the video on the ZD-985 some years ago on Dave's EEVBlog: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft50m8UU5WQ > > > > I've been wondering if it's a worthwhile tool. Does anyone have one of > > these things? > > > > --Chuck > > > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 08:05:14 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 09:05:14 -0500 Subject: desoldering (was Re: VAX 9440) In-Reply-To: References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> <1542036274281.2316@w2hx.com> <5ED47FC8-D923-403B-8BF5-EEDDC13F7692@nf6x.net> Message-ID: I have a 605. I tend to use solder wick though, it has been a while since I needed a powered sucker. On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 8:40 AM systems_glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Another Hakko 472D owner here. Got mine in pieces as used/nonworking. > They're easy to rebuild. I've used the 808s at workshops/friends' places, > there's no comparison IMO. I use the "pencil" style handpiece, we had the > "gun" style at a previous job, I definitely like the "pencil" style better. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 6:38 PM Ed C. via cctalk > wrote: > > > I have the combo unit including solder. I do not have any other > experience > > with any high-end ware but I can say that this unit does all I need and > > does it well. > > > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 7:17 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > On 11/13/18 7:38 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > Instead, I use two pencil-type irons, one in each hand, working under > > > > a stereo microscope. The tips are much better, and manipulating each > > > > tip independently provides great control of what's going on. Only > > > > drawback is that if you want to use a fancy, expensive iron, now you > > > > get to buy two of them. If you're tempted by a soldering station with > > > > two or more outputs, make sure that it can drive both simultaneously. > > > > There are dual-output stations that have two outputs but can only run > > > > one at a time, as well as ones which can drive two irons at once. > > > > > > After seeing the video on the ZD-985 some years ago on Dave's EEVBlog: > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft50m8UU5WQ > > > > > > I've been wondering if it's a worthwhile tool. Does anyone have one of > > > these things? > > > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 09:53:03 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:53:03 -0500 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 4:08 AM Eric Smith wrote: > I spent some time reverse-engineering the firmware. There is only one > undocumented opcode, decimal 10, and I haven't yet figured out what it > does, but it definitely doesn't format a tape. I looked at the firmware disassemblies. Opcode 10 appears to only point to code (vs NOP) on one version of the firmware https://gitlab.com/NF6X_Retrocomputing/tu58firmware/blob/master/disassembly/23-089e2.asm op_undoc_10: ld hl,l07e4 call s06a ld a,018h ld (r2003),a jp op_nop (I think the jump to op_nop is just there to handle regular opcode processing cleanup) I have TU58 drives in VAXen (11/750, 11/730, 11/725), a VT103, and one standalone unit that I pulled from an 11/725 that we bought to strip for parts to keep our 11/730 running. I really haven't explored the differences in the firmware since mostly, I've used them as intended, for loading SA Backup, Microcode patches, and, of course, as Console Media to boot the 730 and 725. -ethan From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Nov 14 10:02:54 2018 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 11:02:54 -0500 Subject: desoldering (was Re: VAX 9440) In-Reply-To: References: <20181110102618.GM6450@Update.UU.SE> <1542036274281.2316@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <094d01d47c33$815821c0$84086540$@verizon.net> Al Kossow wrote: > Cleaning the Hakko is SO much easier than a > Pace (there is no glass to burn your > fingers on). The newer Pace desoldering tools (SX-90, SX-100) are much better, both in cleaning (disposable traps) and usage (the tips simply don't block at all). Bill S. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 11:33:32 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:33:32 -0700 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 8:53 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 4:08 AM Eric Smith wrote: > > I spent some time reverse-engineering the firmware. There is only one > > undocumented opcode, decimal 10, and I haven't yet figured out what it > > does, but it definitely doesn't format a tape. > > I looked at the firmware disassemblies. Opcode 10 appears to only > point to code (vs NOP) on one version of the firmware > > > https://gitlab.com/NF6X_Retrocomputing/tu58firmware/blob/master/disassembly/23-089e2.asm Well, yes, that's my disassembly. So now you know about as much about opcode 10 as I do. :-) From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 11:59:40 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:59:40 -0500 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 11/14/2018 10:53 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 4:08 AM Eric Smith wrote: >> I spent some time reverse-engineering the firmware. There is only one >> undocumented opcode, decimal 10, and I haven't yet figured out what it >> does, but it definitely doesn't format a tape. > I looked at the firmware disassemblies. Opcode 10 appears to only > point to code (vs NOP) on one version of the firmware > > https://gitlab.com/NF6X_Retrocomputing/tu58firmware/blob/master/disassembly/23-089e2.asm > > op_undoc_10: > ld hl,l07e4 > call s06a > ld a,018h > ld (r2003),a > jp op_nop > > (I think the jump to op_nop is just there to handle regular opcode > processing cleanup) > > I have TU58 drives in VAXen (11/750, 11/730, 11/725), a VT103, and one > standalone unit that I pulled from an 11/725 that we bought to strip > for parts to keep our 11/730 running. I really haven't explored the > differences in the firmware since mostly, I've used them as intended, > for loading SA Backup, Microcode patches, and, of course, as Console > Media to boot the 730 and 725. > > -ethan Mine I use to boot a 11/23.? The code, I have both is functionally the same for PDP11 use. There are also two version of the TU58 board, one is serial IO (used for most everything) and a parallel version used in the PDT110 (I have one).? The parallel one uses the same bits and all to match the UART so the same code.? The parallel IO hardware fakes the uart framing error error (attention signal).? Very clever as the 8085 code is the same. Both samples of disassembled code do not relate bits and ports in the actual drive if they did then it would be clearer what the code was doing.? The biggest thing is it reads or writes a 128byte section of a 512 byte block to tape without doing IO to the host from local ram as the CPU is fully consumed doing that.? The actual TU58 system is 2K of Eprom,? 8155 (256 bytes of ram and 8255 style of port IO plus a timer), serial port and 8085.? So the core hardware outside of the read amps is pretty trivial.? It takes all of the available IO and most of the interrupt pins plus SID/SOD pins to implement it.? Its very IO intense for controlling the tape and reading/writing it. Best use for the code is extract the parts that do IO to the host (MRSP) and make a dual 256Kbyte ram (or eprom if IPL for VAX) to replace the physical tape. For 11/23 use I run a 512K ram board an it boots RT-11 XM copies it to XD(ram disk) and then boots it.? Takes about 7 minutes to boot but once there its fairly fast save for file IO to tape as seeks are very slow.? The version of a solid state TU58 I have is not much faster as the serial rate is the same but seeks are much faster. Allison From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Nov 14 12:50:31 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:50:31 -0500 Subject: The fundamental building block of modern digital design turns 100 https://spectrum.ieee.org/geek-life/hands-on/recreating-the-first-flipflop Message-ID: <167138f83de-1ec3-6c68@webjas-vaa208.srv.aolmail.net> YIPPEE? ?A? Birthday? Party! The fundamental building block of modern digital design turns 100 ? https://spectrum.ieee.org/geek-life/hands-on/recreating-the-first-flipflop From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 12:59:34 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:59:34 -0500 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 12:35 PM Eric Smith wrote: >> I looked at the firmware disassemblies. Opcode 10 appears to only >> point to code (vs NOP) on one version of the firmware >> >> https://gitlab.com/NF6X_Retrocomputing/tu58firmware/blob/master/disassembly/23-089e2.asm > > Well, yes, that's my disassembly. So now you know about as much about opcode 10 as I do. :-) Right. But I guess what I trying to was was more about me being surprised that it's only in what may be _older_ firmware (based on the assumption, which I _think_ is valid, that Firmware part numbers are ordered by date). I'm not surprised there's an undocumented opcode. I'm surprised to think it's older and was removed. That's not the usual trend. -ethan From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Wed Nov 14 18:22:29 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:22:29 -0700 Subject: HP 88780B density Message-ID: I have a dual density 88780B. Is it possible to upgrade to quad density by acquiring/swapping boards? Or does someone have an 800bpi 9-track on SCSI Incan borrow or buy? I have a pair of 1984 pdp11/70 UNIX SysV (R0, R1?) tapes that need to be archived. Regards, Kevin From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 15 11:18:39 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 12:18:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels Message-ID: <20181115171839.4C8C418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning >> The DEC font uses a zero with a slash > For that, a capital O with a slash would probably serve. Actually, it turns out that only earlier panels (e.g. KA10, TC08, etc) use the slashed zero; later ones (KI10, RP11, etc) use the ordinary ones. Since our panel is intended for use with the RPV11-D, the unslashed is OK. Thanks to all for all the help with the font; did anyone have any comments on the _layout_ of the inlay (here: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2018-November/043285.html for those who missed it among all the other messages). Noel From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Thu Nov 15 21:47:58 2018 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 03:47:58 +0000 Subject: early ANSI C drafts, pre-1989 standard In-Reply-To: References: <3B8213D1BDEB46D69BECDECD8A0F49B3@ranger1> Message-ID: On 15/11/2018 16:10, Keven Miller(3k) wrote: > For those who expressed interest or have, > I've scanned and uploaded my X3J11-88 ANSI-C Draft and Rationale pdfs. Thank you Kevin. This is greatly appreciated. Learning why C has the syntax and semantics that it does, and writing compilers for various subsets of it, were some of the most important things I did in my undergraduate education. Now our ongoing discussion about its history adds an extra dimension. Kind regards, Andrew > www.3kranger.com/3knotes.shtm > Under the first section "Notes", item 16 and 17. > > direct pdf links > > http://www.3kranger.com/LabNotes/ANSI-C-X3J1188-Draft.pdf > > http://www.3kranger.com/LabNotes/ANSI-C-X3J1188-Rationale.pdf > > > Keven Miller > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Luke Nesbit" > > To: "Keven Miller(3k)" ; "General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; "Eric Smith" > > Sent: Sun 07 Oct 2018 09:45 AM > Subject: early ANSI C drafts, pre-1989 standard > > >> Hi Kevin, >> >> On 07/10/2018 05:56, Keven Miller(3k) via cctalk wrote: >>> I found that I have a copy of X3J11-88-001 >>> Draft Propsed American National Standard for Information Systems - >>> Programming Language C >>> and X3J11-88-003 >>> Rationale for Draft Proposed American National Standard for Information >>> Systems - Programming Language C >> >> Cool! >> >>> They are quit lengthy, 2 sided copies. >>> I suppose I could create copies if you would like. >>> Or attempt to scan them into individual pdf files. >> >> Is it bound as a book (with a proper book spine) or wirebound, ..., etc? >> Would it be easier to take it to a copy shop?? For example, if it's >> wirebound or spiralbound it's very easy and cheap for a copy shop to >> take it apart, run the whole thing automatically through a scanning >> device, and then reattach the original binding. >> >> I would be willing to contribute a little money to help cover cost of >> this in return for a scanned copy. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Andrew >> --? >> OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0? B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 >> > -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Nov 18 11:44:07 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 12:44:07 -0500 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <20181113152123.DE8A618C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181113152123.DE8A618C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1226308f-c677-02a2-4dcd-7ce280b4125f@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-11-13 10:21 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Toby Thain > > > To get closer I'd need better images of the panels. > > Hi, I borrowed a DEC inlay from someone (a KA10 CPU bay) and scanned a chunk > of it (as much as I could fit into my A4 scanner :-) at 200 dpi: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/KACPUPanel.jpg > > I have a TC08 inlay, but it's currently being used in my QSIC display (until > we can get the RKV11-F/RPV11-D inlay done :-), and I didn't want to yank it > out. As far as I can tell, it's the same font on the two of them. > > > > the closest I know of off the top of my head is Akzidenz Grotesk. > > The Akzidenz Grotesk Medium is indeed very, very close (other than the zero). (And the "Q") > Do you happen to know if that font available for use in non-commercial > settings? I just noticed this free font which is also rather close (has a slashed Q, at least): https://www.fontsquirrel.com/fonts/hk-grotesk Try the SemiBold weight. --Toby > > Thanks! > > Noel > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Nov 18 13:27:22 2018 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 14:27:22 -0500 Subject: RT-11 DY install In-Reply-To: References: <20181018122229.98650BEE8D9@cel2.x> Message-ID: <5BF1BD1A.4030605@compsys.to> The long delay in making a response is because I rarely check classiccmp. Please accept my apology. If anyone asks a question, I will probably not see the question until the end of November, 2018. >Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 18/10/2018 13:22, Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: > >> On Wed Oct 17 19:19:20 2018 cctalk at classiccmp.org (Jerry Weiss via >> cctalk) wrote: > >>> Note: Apparently the RY emulation won't load if more than 256K >>> memory is specified as the DEC hardware did not support DMA in a >>> 22bit box. I'm=20 entirely not sure why SIMH has to >>> enforce this as its possible to work around (e.g. TSX+ supports >>> buffering the IO). Anyone know how to override and load in >>> SIMH? >>> >>> Jerry >> >> Thanks Jerry. That's "fixed" it. Since simh didn't complain about my >> "set ry enabled" I assumed (wrongly) that that wasn't the issue. >> >> Thanks to all the other's who replied. > > As Noel pointed out, real PDP-11s definitely work with RX02 subsystems > in 22-bit systems. SIMH really ought to be able to do so regardless of > 18-bit or 22-bit memory. The DY driver in RT-11, for example, simply > knows to only use the bottom 256K for DMA I/O. As a long time RT-11 user, I often found it useful to enhance the software which DEC produced. Since I found that the Unibus PDP-11 hardware was almost always much more difficult to obtain in addition to being MUCH too heavy and much too large as compared with Qbus PDP-11 hardware, I focused all of my software enhancements which were hardware specific on the Qbus side of the fence. So what I have written in this reply is only for Qbus PDP-11 systems. As a consequence, a Unibus focused enhancement which supports 22 bit memory availability still needs to be produced. ALSO, I use SIMH so rarely that I never ran across the problem of using more that 256K on a Qbus (emulated of course) system with the RX02 device. Whenever I used the RX02 device on an emulated Qbus PDP-11 system (almost always with a full 4 Meg of emulated memory), I used the E11 emulation from Dbit by John Wilson. In addition, whenever I used the RX02 on a real DEC PDP-11 Qbus system, 4 Meg of memory was almost always available. It is ALSO essential to distinguish between an UnMapped RT-11 monitor such as RT11FB and a Mapped RT-11 monitor such as RT11XM. With RT11FB, the name of the device driver is DY.SYS and ONLY 64 K bytes of memory are available for standard use which means that all I/O on the RX02 is performed with the lower 64K of memory at all times. With RT11XM and a 22-bit Qbus PDP-11 with 4 Meg of memory (both real hardware or emulated under E11), the name of the device driver is DYX.SYS and, as stated above, the code in DYX.SYS knows that any I/O transfer between the floppy media and memory can use ONLY the lower 256K of memory. As a very minor addition to what is stated above as why only the lower 256K is used, that is because the DEC Qbus RX02 hardware controller is restricted to memory addresses which are in the lower 256K (as opposed to other DEC hardware controllers which have the hardware to address all 4 Meg of Qbus memory) OR a 3rd party RX02 Qbus controller (there is at least one - unfortunately I no longer remember the name of the manufacturer) which also supports 22 bit memory addresses for a 4 Meg Qbus system. HOWEVER, that does not mean that the DYX.SYS device driver is unable to accept I/O requests between the floppy media and user buffers which reside in physical memory above 256K. It does mean that the DEC version of DYX.SYS can't perform the request since it does NOT have the additional code which is able to accommodate a transfer to or from a user buffer above 256K. It is also possible to add the additional code to the DYX.SYS device driver which can accomplish an I/O transfer to or from the floppy media using memory above 256K if DYX.SYS has a bounce buffer which is in the lower 256K. In the past, I have mentioned that I have such a version of DYX.SYS which I wrote more than a decade ago, so I know from practical experience exactly what is required. The version I wrote is a memory hog of the 64K memory since I never made the additional effort to use extended memory (such as DUX.SYS and SLX.SYS). I seem to remember that the enhancements to DYX.SYS were made before I made enhancements to both DUX.SYS and SLX.SYS, so I did not know enough at that time what was possible. In addition, I also had not modified the code which supported requests from device drivers and system jobs for extended memory from the top of the available buffer - which means that the lower 256K could have been allocated before DYX.SYS could make its request. I now have a program, AXHIGH.SAV, which does that. AXLOW.SAV supports requests from device drivers for memory from the bottom of the available buffer and AXSHOW.SAV displays the current setting. In summary, if SIMH will not function with an RX02 Qbus emulated system when there is more than 256K of emulated memory, I strongly recommend that the situation be fixed since that is NOT how a real Qbus PDP-11 functions. In short, the reason the DEC version of the RX02 DYX.SYS device driver is unable to access a user buffer address above 256K is because DEC decided to not update both the hardware in the controller and the software in the DYX.SYS device driver. Since the RX02 is a very old 8" floppy media, the decision was probably reasonable from a cost benefit point of view. Since other operating systems, (such as TSX-Plus and I suspect RSX-11) do support access to user buffers in memory locations above 256K and it was not very difficult to add the extra code to DYX.SYS to do so (although it did take a bit more effort to support the PDP-11/23 CPU in addition the the PDP-11/73), it probably would have been reasonable for DEC to add the additional; code by 1992 when V05.06 of RT-11 was released. If anyone still has any questions, please ask. If anyone needs a DYX.SYS device driver which supports user buffers in Qbus memory above 256K, please contact me. Jerome Fine From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sun Nov 18 14:36:07 2018 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 12:36:07 -0800 Subject: VCF PNW 2019: Exhibitors needed! Message-ID: I'm trying to throw a party, but like any good host I'm worried about the food and entertainment and if anybody will show up. We already know there is no food at the museum so I need really, really good entertainment ... Right now we have seven exhibitors who have formally registered. We really need a total of 20 to 25 to make this work. We are still a few months away so I'm not in full scale panic mode yet, but I can feel it coming. ;-0 If you are interested in joining the party again, please register. An overview of what it means to be an exhibitor and the link to the registration form can be found here: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-pnw-exhibitor-registration/ . If you participated last year and don't want to do it again, I can understand that. To keep things interesting I'm trying to minimize the number of repeat exhibits. However, you can still help in a few ways: - Know somebody who should join the party? Talk to them about exhibiting at 2019. A little nudging and mentoring from a friend can make it easier to bring new people in. - Have an interesting topic you want to talk about? We're looking for speakers too ... - Can you volunteer a few hours? Many hands makes light work, and also gets you into the museum for the weekend for free. Have any leads on people I should talk to or ideas for making the show better? Send them along ... I'd be happy to discuss. One final note: Contrary to any previously sent communication, we are not "selling" spots ... I'm actively trying to get rid of the exhibitor fee entirely, and will guarantee that it will be no more than $20 this year if it is charged at all. Thanks, Mike VCF PNW President, CEO, and Executive Floppy Disk Shuffler From pat at vax11.net Mon Nov 19 01:00:08 2018 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 02:00:08 -0500 Subject: IBM 3270 Emulation Adapter (ISA) Message-ID: I'm wondering if anyone knows where to find a copy of some software to make an IBM 3270 Emulation Adapter (the short ISA one) useful. I hear that IBM's PCOMM/3270 2.0 - 4.0 or so will work (on DOS) with the card. Pat From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Nov 19 01:46:35 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 23:46:35 -0800 Subject: IBM 3270 Emulation Adapter (ISA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <757e4796-8eee-e16f-7f3b-87c28dbbac43@jwsss.com> On 11/18/2018 11:00 PM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > I'm wondering if anyone knows where to find a copy of some software to > make an IBM 3270 Emulation Adapter (the short ISA one) useful. I hear > that IBM's PCOMM/3270 2.0 - 4.0 or so will work (on DOS) with the > card. > > Pat I hope you see this auction in time, it shows only 5 hours left. https://www.ebay.com/itm/311574987362 Vintage-IBM-Personal-Communications-3270-4-0-Upgrade-New-NIB/ IIRC this would fill the bill with either the long or short variety of 3270 adapter. You of course need a device for the other end of the hose, (coax), such as a mainframe or 3174 controller, but this will make the PC into a 3270 terminal.? I used it on several systems back in the day. There is also a program, ind$file which will let you upload and download files to and from a mainframe included. thanks Jim From brain at jbrain.com Mon Nov 19 09:49:48 2018 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 09:49:48 -0600 Subject: IND$FILE In-Reply-To: <757e4796-8eee-e16f-7f3b-87c28dbbac43@jwsss.com> References: <757e4796-8eee-e16f-7f3b-87c28dbbac43@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <128acfc0-e38c-dd06-61ed-91ada1ffb54a@jbrain.com> I know it's a minor nit, but as someone who has used IND$FILE on OS/390 (zOS), I always wondered why it was called IND$FILE. Wikipedia has just a stub: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IND$FILE FILE I tend to understand, but I was never very knowledgeable of MVS, so I'm not sure where IND comes from. Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 19 10:01:10 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:01:10 -0800 Subject: IBM 3270 Emulation Adapter (ISA) In-Reply-To: <757e4796-8eee-e16f-7f3b-87c28dbbac43@jwsss.com> References: <757e4796-8eee-e16f-7f3b-87c28dbbac43@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 11/18/18 11:46 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 11/18/2018 11:00 PM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: >> I'm wondering if anyone knows where to find a copy of some software to >> make an IBM 3270 Emulation Adapter (the short ISA one) useful. It would be helpful to know which 3rd party programs support the IBM adapters/API as well. These programs/products have been gobbled up by different companies over time so it's hard to keep things straight, then there is the problem of what OS they support. DCA/Attachmate/Microfocus is especially confusing with the "IRMA" and "Extra" naming of products that are completely different. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 19 10:34:26 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 16:34:26 +0000 Subject: What is windoes doing? Message-ID: I have a question. I use the USB port for serial. In my program, I use a fixed com port. When going to the control panel, I find that I see (in use) tags on some of the com ports. I'm the only one currently using the com ports but recently another (in use) showed up, requiring me to modify my program to use another com port. How does one unuse a com port? how do I find out what is using it so I can stop it? I'm using windows 7 professional. Has anyone else had this problem? Dwight From ethan at 757.org Mon Nov 19 10:41:12 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 11:41:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: What is windoes doing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I have a question. I use the USB port for serial. In my program, I use a > fixed com port. When going to the control panel, I find that I see (in > use) tags on some of the com ports. I'm the only one currently using the > com ports but recently another (in use) showed up, requiring me to > modify my program to use another com port. How does one unuse a com > port? how do I find out what is using it so I can stop it? I'm using > windows 7 professional. Has anyone else had this problem? Dwight Do you unplug the USB to Serial dongle with a terminal program open? - Ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 19 11:13:19 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 09:13:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is windoes doing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2018, Ethan via cctalk wrote: >> I have a question. I use the USB port for serial. In my program, I use a >> fixed com port. When going to the control panel, I find that I see (in use) >> tags on some of the com ports. I'm the only one currently using the com >> ports but recently another (in use) showed up, requiring me to modify my >> program to use another com port. How does one unuse a com port? how do I >> find out what is using it so I can stop it? I'm using windows 7 >> professional. Has anyone else had this problem? Dwight > > Do you unplug the USB to Serial dongle with a terminal program open? > FYI, "In Use" doesn't mean the port is actively used by another process, it means that the /name/ has been assigned and isn't available to assign to a new COM device. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 12:12:31 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 13:12:31 -0500 Subject: What is windoes doing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Every time you unplug and re-plug a USB serial cable you cause the system to create a new IRQ address for it, called COM5, 6,7,8,9 etc. If you do the thing where you "remove usb devices safely" routine you can avoid this. b On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 12:13 PM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 19 Nov 2018, Ethan via cctalk wrote: > > >> I have a question. I use the USB port for serial. In my program, I use > a > >> fixed com port. When going to the control panel, I find that I see (in > use) > >> tags on some of the com ports. I'm the only one currently using the com > >> ports but recently another (in use) showed up, requiring me to modify > my > >> program to use another com port. How does one unuse a com port? how do > I > >> find out what is using it so I can stop it? I'm using windows 7 > >> professional. Has anyone else had this problem? Dwight > > > > Do you unplug the USB to Serial dongle with a terminal program open? > > > FYI, "In Use" doesn't mean the port is actively used by another process, > it means that the /name/ has been assigned and isn't available to assign > to a new COM device. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Nov 19 12:35:30 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 18:35:30 +0000 (WET) Subject: What is windoes doing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01QZU7Y1ZFMS001U2V@beyondthepale.ie> > > I have a question. I use the USB port for serial. In my program, I use a > fixed com port. When going to the control panel, I find that I see (in use) > tags on some of the com ports. I'm the only one currently using the com > ports but recently another (in use) showed up, requiring me to modify my > program to use another com port. How does one unuse a com port? how do I > find out what is using it so I can stop it? I'm using windows 7 > professional. Has anyone else had this problem? > Dwight This list is my refuge from "windoes" and USB. Can we please not do this here? If the query related to writing an emulator for a classic system on Windows with USB device attachment, I think I could cope but this needs to be stated. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Nov 19 15:11:15 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 13:11:15 -0800 Subject: IND$FILE In-Reply-To: <128acfc0-e38c-dd06-61ed-91ada1ffb54a@jbrain.com> References: <757e4796-8eee-e16f-7f3b-87c28dbbac43@jwsss.com> <128acfc0-e38c-dd06-61ed-91ada1ffb54a@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 11/19/2018 7:49 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > I know it's a minor nit, but as someone who has used IND$FILE on > OS/390 (zOS), I always wondered why it was called IND$FILE. Wikipedia > has just a stub: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IND$FILE > > FILE I tend to understand, but I was never very knowledgeable of MVS, > so I'm not sure where IND comes from. > > Jim > > I believe the package internal to mvs / OS has the preface of IND for the modules.? Similar to IFBR14 is part of the IFB suite of programs. IFBR14 if you all are not familiar with MVS / MVT batch programming is a program which immediately terminates w/o any return codes by doing an assembly language return to the caller of the job step via the contents of R14 of the processor, which is also the return address. If you needed to do a bunch of JCL but not really run a program to accomplish something, but the JCL or programming required a "program" to execute, IFBR14 was the program used to do that. Anyway, I think from my foggy recollection that there are other IND something modules which comprise the full package of which IND$FILE is a part. The module naming convention was frequently extended to the VM environment which is where I used it most frequently.?? It was also used with SNA connections to transfer files as well (as a protocol) similar to the xmodem and the like protocols were used with async data transfers. thanks Jim From spc at conman.org Mon Nov 19 15:24:35 2018 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 16:24:35 -0500 Subject: IEFBR14 (was Re: IND$FILE) In-Reply-To: References: <757e4796-8eee-e16f-7f3b-87c28dbbac43@jwsss.com> <128acfc0-e38c-dd06-61ed-91ada1ffb54a@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20181119212435.GK15463@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great jim stephens via cctalk once stated: > > IFBR14 if you all are not familiar with MVS / MVT batch programming is a > program which immediately terminates w/o any return codes by doing an > assembly language return to the caller of the job step via the contents > of R14 of the processor, which is also the return address. I've always been amused by IEFBR14 ever since I heard about it. I first came across it by this quote: Every program has at least one bug and can be shortened by at least one instruction---from which, by induction, one can deduce that every program can be reduced to one instruction which doesn't work. IEFBR14 was this program---one instruction long, and it contained a bug: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEFBR14 -spc (The fix doubled the size of the program---such bloat!) From svens at stackframe.org Mon Nov 19 15:30:28 2018 From: svens at stackframe.org (Sven Schnelle) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 22:30:28 +0100 Subject: HP-Apollo 9000/425t RAM In-Reply-To: References: <630EB7CD-FCC3-456A-BE1C-DBC661B4E782@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On 11/06/2018 07:16 AM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > All that said I?m quite surprised MAME doesn?t include HP-Apollo 9000/400 series emulation. The hardware is very similar to the 9000/380, which is supported, and several Apollo DN series systems are also supported? > It's just a matter of time - i've got HP-UX with full VUE now running in MAME. I've? added emulation of most of the functionality of the 98550A 1280x1024 8bpp card. That makes now a nice virtual HP-UX for playing! :-) I'm now on the 4xx Systems - got a bootrom from someone which looks like a 400t Boot ROM - it expects a 68030. As you have a real 4xx, would it be possible to dump the boot rom + configuration eeprom? If you don't have the possibilities to dump it physically, it might be possible via /dev/mem in HP-UX, if someone on the list knows the details on how to use that special device. Best regards Sven From drb at msu.edu Mon Nov 19 15:31:06 2018 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 16:31:06 -0500 Subject: IND$FILE In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 19 Nov 2018 13:11:15 -0800.) References: <757e4796-8eee-e16f-7f3b-87c28dbbac43@jwsss.com> <128acfc0-e38c-dd06-61ed-91ada1ffb54a@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20181119213106.3E5A7A585FA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > IFBR14 if you all are not familiar with MVS / MVT batch programming > is a program which immediately terminates w/o any return codes by > doing an assembly language return to the caller of the job step via > the contents of R14 of the processor, which is also the return > address. Actually, in the aforementioned environment, it's not really possible to return without a code. The relevant register will contain some value, whether you set it or not. The famous bug in IEFBR14 was that it failed to set that return code, so the job often aborted due to whatever garbage was in the register. De From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 19 16:15:10 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 22:15:10 +0000 Subject: What is windoes doing? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Ethan That is entirely possible. I do think about it when I plug and unplug the USB floppy drive but not usually for the serial. Is there a way to finish them or maybe stick things in so that I can "safely remove" things? Most of the time for serial, I use a FTDI but I do have some older USB to RS232 voltage converters as well. Dwight ________________________________ From: ethan at 757.org Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:41 AM To: dwight; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What is windoes doing? > I have a question. I use the USB port for serial. In my program, I use a > fixed com port. When going to the control panel, I find that I see (in > use) tags on some of the com ports. I'm the only one currently using the > com ports but recently another (in use) showed up, requiring me to > modify my program to use another com port. How does one unuse a com > port? how do I find out what is using it so I can stop it? I'm using > windows 7 professional. Has anyone else had this problem? Dwight Do you unplug the USB to Serial dongle with a terminal program open? - Ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 19 16:39:20 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 22:39:20 +0000 Subject: What is windoes doing? In-Reply-To: <01QZU7Y1ZFMS001U2V@beyondthepale.ie> References: , <01QZU7Y1ZFMS001U2V@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Actually, I do use it almost exclusively with classic machines. I use the RS232 to load and talk to my Nicolet 1080 ( a late 1960s to early 1970 ) machine. I just got done using it to repair a North * Horizon. If I'm leaving trails behind me that I can't get rid of, each time I use it as a terminal, I'll be limited on what repairs I can do. The FTDI was just recently used to write and debug code on a small controller board to convert a ps/2 keyboard to parallel for my Poly88. Windows is not the end use. I don't even put it directly on the web. It is primarily used a data transfer, some editing and terminal for classic machines. Its functioning is important for maintaining and restoring classic machines. This was not a typical " please help me fix my PC " post. I don't email, web search or anything else with this machine. Its one purpose is related to restoring and maintaining classic machines. It is no more off topic than a new temperature controlled soldering iron is. What would I use serial and RS232 for? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Peter Coghlan via cctalk Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 10:35 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What is windoes doing? > > I have a question. I use the USB port for serial. In my program, I use a > fixed com port. When going to the control panel, I find that I see (in use) > tags on some of the com ports. I'm the only one currently using the com > ports but recently another (in use) showed up, requiring me to modify my > program to use another com port. How does one unuse a com port? how do I > find out what is using it so I can stop it? I'm using windows 7 > professional. Has anyone else had this problem? > Dwight This list is my refuge from "windoes" and USB. Can we please not do this here? If the query related to writing an emulator for a classic system on Windows with USB device attachment, I think I could cope but this needs to be stated. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 19 17:29:13 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 15:29:13 -0800 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals Message-ID: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> I've been helping the MAME guys simulate a TS-2624, which is a block mode HP emulating terminal. I had bought this a while ago, and never dumped the firmware. Unfortunately there is a large NiCd battery right in the middle of the board that leaked all over. I've taken some pictures which are up under falco on bitsavers. If anyone has one of these, you want to do battery mitigation ASAP. I'm in the middle of replacing every socket on the board since they were all within range of the leakage corrosion. Also, I suspect the first generation of terminals all have similar hardware with different firmware, so if someone has any of the other models (TS-1, etc.) we could get them simulated pretty easily once the firmware is dumped. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 19 17:46:29 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 15:46:29 -0800 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals In-Reply-To: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6dc8a226-716f-520a-f6e8-26009833dd7a@bitsavers.org> The later model 500/5000 have a small NiCd as well. On 11/19/18 3:29 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I've been helping the MAME guys simulate a TS-2624, which is a block mode HP emulating terminal. > I had bought this a while ago, and never dumped the firmware. Unfortunately there is a large > NiCd battery right in the middle of the board that leaked all over. I've taken some pictures > which are up under falco on bitsavers. > > If anyone has one of these, you want to do battery mitigation ASAP. I'm in the middle of replacing > every socket on the board since they were all within range of the leakage corrosion. > > Also, I suspect the first generation of terminals all have similar hardware with different > firmware, so if someone has any of the other models (TS-1, etc.) we could get them simulated > pretty easily once the firmware is dumped. > > From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 18:27:34 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 17:27:34 -0700 Subject: IEFBR14 (was Re: IND$FILE) In-Reply-To: <20181119212435.GK15463@brevard.conman.org> References: <757e4796-8eee-e16f-7f3b-87c28dbbac43@jwsss.com> <128acfc0-e38c-dd06-61ed-91ada1ffb54a@jbrain.com> <20181119212435.GK15463@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 2:24 PM Sean Conner via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I've always been amused by IEFBR14 ever since I heard about it. I first > came across it by this quote: > Every program has at least one bug and can be shortened by at least > one instruction---from which, by induction, one can deduce that > every program can be reduced to one instruction which doesn't work. > IEFBR14 was this program---one instruction long, and it contained a bug: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEFBR14 > By induction you should be able to reduce a program to zero instructions. On CP/M, you actually can, and the resulting program is useful, and as far as I know, has zarro boogs. (Which instruction could a bug be in?) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 19 19:29:46 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 18:29:46 -0700 Subject: IEFBR14 (was Re: IND$FILE) In-Reply-To: References: <757e4796-8eee-e16f-7f3b-87c28dbbac43@jwsss.com> <128acfc0-e38c-dd06-61ed-91ada1ffb54a@jbrain.com> <20181119212435.GK15463@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <7671b213-16e0-b683-a8db-72e511d5e6ba@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/19/2018 5:27 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 2:24 PM Sean Conner via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I've always been amused by IEFBR14 ever since I heard about it. I first >> came across it by this quote: >> Every program has at least one bug and can be shortened by at least >> one instruction---from which, by induction, one can deduce that >> every program can be reduced to one instruction which doesn't work. >> IEFBR14 was this program---one instruction long, and it contained a bug: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEFBR14 >> > > By induction you should be able to reduce a program to zero instructions. > On CP/M, you actually can, and the resulting program is useful, and as far > as I know, has zarro boogs. (Which instruction could a bug be in?) > That expains why you never see computers with the single instruction Subtract and branch on condition. From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Mon Nov 19 20:17:13 2018 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 21:17:13 -0500 Subject: Missing FORRTL Message-ID: <67b91017-8b79-c98d-3728-224cb42f029c@comcast.net> I'm trying to use the Compaq/HP Extended Math Library? (CXML) on a DEC Alpha under AXP Openvms 8.4 - Hobbyist License. Fortran 8.2 and CXML were part of the Hobbyist distribution I downloaded. CXML complains that FORRTL is not present or the version is too low, (it is not present - $Product show product - ) What am I missing? Doug From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Nov 19 21:00:01 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 21:00:01 -0600 Subject: IND$FILE In-Reply-To: References: <757e4796-8eee-e16f-7f3b-87c28dbbac43@jwsss.com> <128acfc0-e38c-dd06-61ed-91ada1ffb54a@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5BF378B1.30606@pico-systems.com> On 11/19/2018 03:11 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > I believe the package internal to mvs / OS has the preface > of IND for the modules. Similar to IFBR14 is part of the > IFB suite of programs. > Shouldn't that be IEFBR14? Jon From mcquiggi at me.com Mon Nov 19 21:18:40 2018 From: mcquiggi at me.com (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 19:18:40 -0800 Subject: IND$FILE In-Reply-To: <5BF378B1.30606@pico-systems.com> References: <757e4796-8eee-e16f-7f3b-87c28dbbac43@jwsss.com> <128acfc0-e38c-dd06-61ed-91ada1ffb54a@jbrain.com> <5BF378B1.30606@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Ah, fond memories! IEFBR14... Sent from my iPad > On Nov 19, 2018, at 19:00, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> On 11/19/2018 03:11 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> I believe the package internal to mvs / OS has the preface of IND for the modules. Similar to IFBR14 is part of the IFB suite of programs. >> > Shouldn't that be IEFBR14? > > Jon From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 22:49:36 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 23:49:36 -0500 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <08B25954DC414E6BAF065822C7DFFCED@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 6:29 PM Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals > I've been helping the MAME guys simulate a TS-2624, which is a block mode HP emulating terminal. > I had bought this a while ago, and never dumped the firmware. Unfortunately there is a large > NiCd battery right in the middle of the board that leaked all over. I've taken some pictures > which are up under falco on bitsavers. > > If anyone has one of these, you want to do battery mitigation ASAP. I'm in the middle of replacing > every socket on the board since they were all within range of the leakage corrosion. > > Also, I suspect the first generation of terminals all have similar hardware with different > firmware, so if someone has any of the other models (TS-1, etc.) we could get them simulated > pretty easily once the firmware is dumped. > ------------------------------ I'm confused; I've got at least one TS-2624 board which is identical to yours and also several TS-1s and TS-1SPs, but they all had the backup battery in the power supply so, although the power supplies were damaged, the Main boards were not (although it's amazing how far the corrosion can migrate). The TS-1s and TS2624s were very similar but certainly not the same board. I've also got some of the newer Fame style models; guess I should look at those but if they have the pox then it's probably too late. FWIW, I've also got a bit of documentation for these and various other Falco terminals (User, programming & service) but alas, not for the 2624; I can also certainly dump any firmware that I have. mike From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 23:21:19 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 00:21:19 -0500 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <23BF8BC3B74D4AFD8D8015DB594A9E91@310e2> Just had a closer look at the TS-2624 and it does indeed have the battery on the board; looks like that's one of the differences from the TS-1x. Looks like I or someone had enough foresight to remove it from this board before it caused any damage. m From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Nov 20 01:54:17 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 23:54:17 -0800 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals In-Reply-To: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5FADB949-D16B-4F74-8A68-BF13EAF83F9E@shaw.ca> On 2018-Nov-19, at 3:29 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I've been helping the MAME guys simulate a TS-2624, which is a block mode HP emulating terminal. > I had bought this a while ago, and never dumped the firmware. Unfortunately there is a large > NiCd battery right in the middle of the board that leaked all over. I've taken some pictures > which are up under falco on bitsavers. > > If anyone has one of these, you want to do battery mitigation ASAP. I'm in the middle of replacing > every socket on the board since they were all within range of the leakage corrosion. > > Also, I suspect the first generation of terminals all have similar hardware with different > firmware, so if someone has any of the other models (TS-1, etc.) we could get them simulated > pretty easily once the firmware is dumped. I had a Falco TS-1 dating from ca. 1981 in my possession a couple of years ago and dumped the ROMS. It was based on a Z80 with 6845 CRT controller and 2651 UART. I have data from two 2732s (Z80 firmware), as well as an EA8316 (2K*8) used for character generation. That's in text format. Also have a PDF with some notes on the hardware and reverse-engineered schematic segments. I didn't have need / get as far as doing an I/O map or memory map for the Z80. Should I send these files along? From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 03:21:52 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 04:21:52 -0500 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 6:29 PM Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals ... > Also, I suspect the first generation of terminals all have similar hardware with different > firmware, so if someone has any of the other models (TS-1, etc.) we could get them simulated > pretty easily once the firmware is dumped. > ----------------------------- Don't forget the three PROMs ;-) There were at least 2 models of the TS-1; the TS-1SP added paging & scrollback among other features, and there was also the similar TS-100. Their magnetic core & transformer keyboard technology always intrigued me; very reliable & spillproof but I never saw it used anywhere else. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Nov 20 05:02:39 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:02:39 +0000 (WET) Subject: Missing FORRTL In-Reply-To: <67b91017-8b79-c98d-3728-224cb42f029c@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01QZV6PG73US001U2V@beyondthepale.ie> > > I'm trying to use the Compaq/HP Extended Math Library? (CXML) on a DEC > Alpha under AXP Openvms 8.4 - Hobbyist License. > > Fortran 8.2 and CXML were part of the Hobbyist distribution I downloaded. > > CXML complains that FORRTL is not present or the version is too low, (it > is not present - $Product show product - ) > > What am I missing? I haven't used CXML but I have done a lot of FORTRAN. As far as I understand it, language specific runtime libraries including the FORTRAN one come with the base operating system and do not normally show up separately in $ PRODUCT SHOW PRODUCT. In VAX days, the relevant file was SYS$SHARE:FORRTL.EXE. On Alpha, it looks likely to be SYS$SHARE:DEC$FORRTL.EXE, however, it may not be quite that simple as there are also other translated images present which may be accessed using a logical name - $ SHOW LOGICICAL *FORRTL* Try writing a Hello World FORTRAN program. If that runs ok, your FORTRAN runtime library is at least present and you probably need to concentrate on finding a newer version. If you have the extended message help installed, $ HELP /MESSAGE may give you some helpful hints about whatever error message you are getting. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 20 07:11:34 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 05:11:34 -0800 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals In-Reply-To: <5FADB949-D16B-4F74-8A68-BF13EAF83F9E@shaw.ca> References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <5FADB949-D16B-4F74-8A68-BF13EAF83F9E@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <9434c835-3ad7-eb95-bec0-519130060b01@bitsavers.org> On 11/19/18 11:54 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I didn't have need / get as far as doing an I/O map or memory map for the Z80. > > Should I send these files along? > Yes, please to dumps/docs and board/terminal pics from you and Mike! I'm sure Richard would appreciate these as well for the terminals wiki. They have a preliminary memory and I/O map in the MAME driver Falco keyboards are pretty funky. They use transformer-coupled switches with a core that slides between coils on the top and bottom of the PCB They appear to use a serial bitstream for the keypresses. EPROM dumps from the later keyboards with an 8035 would be very useful too, since CHM has a later model 52xx terminal with a 5 pin DIN, but I've been unable to find the keyboard. I'm guessing the TS-1 series all used the same PCB with different keyboards and firmware. The Fame series use 267x CRT controllers. The 52xx have a custom video ASIC I've not seen the insides of any of the Fame series. From tsg at bonedaddy.net Tue Nov 20 07:43:24 2018 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 08:43:24 -0500 Subject: What is windoes doing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6ff8a8e3-2e56-b46f-a56a-9f1ecb6379a4@bonedaddy.net> On 11/19/2018 11:34 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I have a question. I use the USB port for serial. In my program, I use a fixed com port. When going to the control panel, I find that I see (in use) tags on some of the com ports. I'm the only one currently using the com ports but recently another (in use) showed up, requiring me to modify my program to use another com port. How does one unuse a com port? how do I find out what is using it so I can stop it? I'm using windows 7 professional. Has anyone else had this problem? > Dwight > Windows "remembers" com ports of USB devices based on the VID/PID of the USB device. This allows the same device (USB com port) to get the same COM assignment but means you end up with a ton of useless COM port reservations when you're using a large number of different USB COM devices. Something like https://superuser.com/questions/408976/how-do-i-clean-up-com-ports-in-use has instructions for removing them in Windows 7. I could have sworn I just uninstalled them from Device Manager but I forget now as it was a while ago. Todd From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Nov 20 13:07:21 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:07:21 -0800 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals In-Reply-To: <9434c835-3ad7-eb95-bec0-519130060b01@bitsavers.org> References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <5FADB949-D16B-4F74-8A68-BF13EAF83F9E@shaw.ca> <9434c835-3ad7-eb95-bec0-519130060b01@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2018-Nov-20, at 5:11 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 11/19/18 11:54 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> I didn't have need / get as far as doing an I/O map or memory map for the Z80. >> >> Should I send these files along? >> > > Yes, please to dumps/docs and board/terminal pics from you and Mike! > > I'm sure Richard would appreciate these as well for the terminals wiki. > > They have a preliminary memory and I/O map in the MAME driver > > Falco keyboards are pretty funky. They use transformer-coupled switches > with a core that slides between coils on the top and bottom of the PCB > > They appear to use a serial bitstream for the keypresses. EPROM dumps > from the later keyboards with an 8035 would be very useful too, since > CHM has a later model 52xx terminal with a 5 pin DIN, but I've been > unable to find the keyboard. > > I'm guessing the TS-1 series all used the same PCB with different keyboards > and firmware. > > The Fame series use 267x CRT controllers. The 52xx have a custom video ASIC > I've not seen the insides of any of the Fame series. (The TS-1 data files have been sent to Al.) I did happen to RE the keyboard and analyse it's functioning some as it needed repair, so that's included in the schematic bits. The PCB-transformer key design is novel, but (in the TS-1) so is the scanning & communication. There is no microcontroller on the keyboard, scanning is performed by the main unit, it sends a key matrix address to the keyboard in serial, the keyboard sends back nothing but a binary key-pressed indication. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 20 13:18:08 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 14:18:08 -0500 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals In-Reply-To: References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <5FADB949-D16B-4F74-8A68-BF13EAF83F9E@shaw.ca> <9434c835-3ad7-eb95-bec0-519130060b01@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2A19DEDE-A8E7-4429-914C-BA0A7B7B4C29@comcast.net> > On Nov 20, 2018, at 2:07 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > ... > The PCB-transformer key design is novel, but (in the TS-1) so is the scanning & communication. > There is no microcontroller on the keyboard, scanning is performed by the main unit, it sends a key matrix address to the keyboard in serial, the keyboard sends back nothing but a binary key-pressed indication. I'm not positive, but my impression is that the same is true for the VT-100 keyboard. paul From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Nov 20 13:28:19 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:28:19 -0800 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals In-Reply-To: References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7583D03C-D460-444F-9334-1674B16045D1@shaw.ca> On 2018-Nov-20, at 1:21 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Kossow via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 6:29 PM > Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals > ... >> Also, I suspect the first generation of terminals all have similar hardware with different >> firmware, so if someone has any of the other models (TS-1, etc.) we could get them simulated >> pretty easily once the firmware is dumped. >> > ----------------------------- > Don't forget the three PROMs ;-) > > There were at least 2 models of the TS-1; the TS-1SP added paging & scrollback among other features, and there was also the similar TS-100. > > Their magnetic core & transformer keyboard technology always intrigued me; very reliable & spillproof but I never saw it used anywhere else. Were there 3 PROMs on the TS-1? I don't remember (and unfortunately didn't dump them, unless you're including the character generator amongst the 3). They were probably soldered in and I was probably thinking mainly about eraseable chips and did the CG as well as it (would have been) socketed. If they were small PROMs, they were perhaps I/O and memory address decoding. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 20 13:42:22 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:42:22 -0800 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals In-Reply-To: <7583D03C-D460-444F-9334-1674B16045D1@shaw.ca> References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <7583D03C-D460-444F-9334-1674B16045D1@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 11/20/18 11:28 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > Were there 3 PROMs on the TS-1? I don't remember There are three bipolar proms on the 2624 that you can see on the pcb picture I still need to dump those, only one is socketed. It looks like the keyboard is very similar in the 2624 with an added row of function keys. I just bought the users and programming manuals for the TS-1, need to get those scanned today. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Nov 20 13:51:14 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:51:14 -0800 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals In-Reply-To: References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <7583D03C-D460-444F-9334-1674B16045D1@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <05C39765-BF3B-4247-88B7-3604079301B9@shaw.ca> On 2018-Nov-20, at 11:42 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 11/20/18 11:28 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > >> Were there 3 PROMs on the TS-1? I don't remember > > There are three bipolar proms on the 2624 that you can see on the pcb picture > I still need to dump those, only one is socketed. > > It looks like the keyboard is very similar in the 2624 with an added row of > function keys. > > I just bought the users and programming manuals for the TS-1, need to get those > scanned today. Just curiousity, but was there something special about the Falcos that's generating particular interest, or of note? From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Nov 20 13:56:30 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:56:30 -0800 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals In-Reply-To: <2A19DEDE-A8E7-4429-914C-BA0A7B7B4C29@comcast.net> References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <5FADB949-D16B-4F74-8A68-BF13EAF83F9E@shaw.ca> <9434c835-3ad7-eb95-bec0-519130060b01@bitsavers.org> <2A19DEDE-A8E7-4429-914C-BA0A7B7B4C29@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2018-Nov-20, at 11:18 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Nov 20, 2018, at 2:07 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> The PCB-transformer key design is novel, but (in the TS-1) so is the scanning & communication. >> There is no microcontroller on the keyboard, scanning is performed by the main unit, it sends a key matrix address to the keyboard in serial, the keyboard sends back nothing but a binary key-pressed indication. > > I'm not positive, but my impression is that the same is true for the VT-100 keyboard. You may be right, rings a bell from working on one, Wasn't intending to suggest the falco was necessarily unique. IIRC, the VT-100 keyboard comm involved standard async UARTs. It's a little weirder on the TS-1, one edge of pulses on the address-line are a clock-pulse, some uS later - determined by a monostable - the state of the same line is sampled for an address bit. After 8-10 such pulses the matrix is strobed, involving another monostable, so there are some timing issues both sides have to independently account for. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 20 13:57:31 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:57:31 -0800 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals In-Reply-To: <05C39765-BF3B-4247-88B7-3604079301B9@shaw.ca> References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <7583D03C-D460-444F-9334-1674B16045D1@shaw.ca> <05C39765-BF3B-4247-88B7-3604079301B9@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 11/20/18 11:51 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > Just curiousity, but was there something special about the Falcos that's generating particular interest, or of note? > Mostly that they are uncommon. I suspect with the NiCd batteries that very few still work and unfortunately, they have detached keyboards so finding complete units will be increasingly difficult in the future. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 13:59:22 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 14:59:22 -0500 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <7583D03C-D460-444F-9334-1674B16045D1@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <1AEC2E5CA37F4DB1BD1860A1353A06EB@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Hilpert via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Battery warning in Falco terminals On 2018-Nov-20, at 1:21 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Kossow via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 6:29 PM > Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals > ... >> Also, I suspect the first generation of terminals all have similar hardware with different >> firmware, so if someone has any of the other models (TS-1, etc.) we could get them simulated >> pretty easily once the firmware is dumped. >> > ----------------------------- > Don't forget the three PROMs ;-) > > There were at least 2 models of the TS-1; the TS-1SP added paging & scrollback among other features, and there was also the similar TS-100. > > Their magnetic core & transformer keyboard technology always intrigued me; very reliable & spillproof but I never saw it used anywhere else. Were there 3 PROMs on the TS-1? I don't remember (and unfortunately didn't dump them, unless you're including the character generator amongst the 3). They were probably soldered in and I was probably thinking mainly about eraseable chips and did the CG as well as it (would have been) socketed. If they were small PROMs, they were perhaps I/O and memory address decoding. =========================== I was talking about the 2624 and yes, they're small 32 byte PROMs for decoding; probably not relevant for an emulator (therefore the smiley) but maybe useful to archive for repair purposes. On my 2624s two are soldered in and one is socketed. I can't find my box of TS-1 boards so I'll have to open one up to see what's on there. I'll have a look for the box with documentation but it might be a while; BTW, my inventory says that I _do_ have a User's manual for the TS-2624 (V1.16). FALCO TS-1 Maint Man & Tech Bulletins 2/82 FALCO TS-1 Operator's Guide FALCO TS-1 "Programmer's Guide, Pgmg Hints & Tips" FALCO TS-1 "TS-1SP Tutorial, TS-1 FW Rel V2.15, SP1.10" FALCO TS-100SP Operator's Guide FALCO FAME100 Users Manual FALCO TS-2624 User's Manual V1.16 (HP emulation) FALCO 5220E Programmer's Manual From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 20 14:06:20 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:06:20 -0800 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals In-Reply-To: References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <7583D03C-D460-444F-9334-1674B16045D1@shaw.ca> <05C39765-BF3B-4247-88B7-3604079301B9@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <7c052a8a-0636-f1c4-3a8b-f761802325f1@bitsavers.org> On 11/20/18 11:57 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 11/20/18 11:51 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > >> Just curiousity, but was there something special about the Falcos that's generating particular interest, or of note? >> > > Mostly that they are uncommon. It also turns out they took over the building I worked in at 440 Potrero in Svale after Advanced Electronics Design died. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 14:33:14 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:33:14 -0500 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <7583D03C-D460-444F-9334-1674B16045D1@shaw.ca> <05C39765-BF3B-4247-88B7-3604079301B9@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <911F24A846E848E7827D4B8EAB655CAA@310e2> On 2018-Nov-20, at 11:42 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I just bought the users and programming manuals for the TS-1, need to get those scanned today. ---------------------- You should have asked ;-) I think I've got 4 or 5 spare copies somewhere ;-) ============= > On 11/20/18 11:28 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > Just curiousity, but was there something special about the Falcos that's generating particular interest, or of note? ---------------------- Yeah, I was wondering the same thing; when these came up several years ago there seemed to be a singular lack of interest. BTW, what's the story on Richard in SLC; is there a new address for the Terminal Wiki? From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 14:40:48 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:40:48 -0500 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <5FADB949-D16B-4F74-8A68-BF13EAF83F9E@shaw.ca> <9434c835-3ad7-eb95-bec0-519130060b01@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <786B2545653A46CF9CD70C81D9A0368C@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Hilpert via cctalk" Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 2:07 PM Subject: Re: Battery warning in Falco terminals > I did happen to RE the keyboard and analyse it's functioning some as it needed repair, so that's included in the schematic bits. ---------------- You should have asked asked as well ;-) I've not only got the schematics & theory of operation but also a box full of keyboards ;-) But I'm surprised; what was wrong with it? From rar at syssrc.com Tue Nov 20 15:22:05 2018 From: rar at syssrc.com (rar) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 21:22:05 +0000 Subject: [EXTERNAL] VCF PNW 2019: Exhibitors needed! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <173b00fae1ba477bb1864510b7c30e72@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com> I could imagine a talk/exhibit demonstrating vintage software. The question that I have is how do we exhibit software (Hardware is challenging enough) A quick stab is on our website at https://museum.syssrc.com/category/software/ where online visitors can run some of the important 1980's software. I would love advice from the crowd on how to teach/display. It is a bit daunting to just sit down with 30 year old software even though it boots up in the browser. (Perhaps laptops and monitors/projectors could be obtained locally, not really interested in in schlepping lots of equipment) Bob Roswell broswell at syssrc.com 410-771-5544 ext 4336 Computer Museum Highlights -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Michael Brutman via cctalk Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 3:36 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: [EXTERNAL] VCF PNW 2019: Exhibitors needed! I'm trying to throw a party, but like any good host I'm worried about the food and entertainment and if anybody will show up. We already know there is no food at the museum so I need really, really good entertainment ... Right now we have seven exhibitors who have formally registered. We really need a total of 20 to 25 to make this work. We are still a few months away so I'm not in full scale panic mode yet, but I can feel it coming. ;-0 If you are interested in joining the party again, please register. An overview of what it means to be an exhibitor and the link to the registration form can be found here: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-pnw-exhibitor-registration/ . If you participated last year and don't want to do it again, I can understand that. To keep things interesting I'm trying to minimize the number of repeat exhibits. However, you can still help in a few ways: - Know somebody who should join the party? Talk to them about exhibiting at 2019. A little nudging and mentoring from a friend can make it easier to bring new people in. - Have an interesting topic you want to talk about? We're looking for speakers too ... - Can you volunteer a few hours? Many hands makes light work, and also gets you into the museum for the weekend for free. Have any leads on people I should talk to or ideas for making the show better? Send them along ... I'd be happy to discuss. One final note: Contrary to any previously sent communication, we are not "selling" spots ... I'm actively trying to get rid of the exhibitor fee entirely, and will guarantee that it will be no more than $20 this year if it is charged at all. Thanks, Mike VCF PNW President, CEO, and Executive Floppy Disk Shuffler From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Nov 20 17:03:55 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:03:55 -0800 Subject: HP-Apollo 9000/425t RAM In-Reply-To: References: <630EB7CD-FCC3-456A-BE1C-DBC661B4E782@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Nov 19, 2018, at 1:30 PM, Sven Schnelle via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/06/2018 07:16 AM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > >> All that said I?m quite surprised MAME doesn?t include HP-Apollo 9000/400 series emulation. The hardware is very similar to the 9000/380, which is supported, and several Apollo DN series systems are also supported? >> > It's just a matter of time - i've got HP-UX with full VUE now running in > MAME. I've added emulation of most of the functionality of the 98550A > 1280x1024 8bpp card. That makes now a nice virtual HP-UX for playing! :-) Do you have a recipe for doing so? -- Chris From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 20 17:21:40 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 23:21:40 +0000 Subject: What is windoes doing? In-Reply-To: <6ff8a8e3-2e56-b46f-a56a-9f1ecb6379a4@bonedaddy.net> References: , <6ff8a8e3-2e56-b46f-a56a-9f1ecb6379a4@bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: Great Todd. That is just what I'm looking for. It makes sense that it would keep track. I have two different ftdi chips that I'm using so I can see how it got messed up. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Todd Goodman via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 5:43 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: What is windoes doing? On 11/19/2018 11:34 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I have a question. I use the USB port for serial. In my program, I use a fixed com port. When going to the control panel, I find that I see (in use) tags on some of the com ports. I'm the only one currently using the com ports but recently another (in use) showed up, requiring me to modify my program to use another com port. How does one unuse a com port? how do I find out what is using it so I can stop it? I'm using windows 7 professional. Has anyone else had this problem? > Dwight > Windows "remembers" com ports of USB devices based on the VID/PID of the USB device. This allows the same device (USB com port) to get the same COM assignment but means you end up with a ton of useless COM port reservations when you're using a large number of different USB COM devices. Something like https://superuser.com/questions/408976/how-do-i-clean-up-com-ports-in-use has instructions for removing them in Windows 7. I could have sworn I just uninstalled them from Device Manager but I forget now as it was a while ago. Todd From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 20 18:44:34 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 16:44:34 -0800 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals In-Reply-To: <911F24A846E848E7827D4B8EAB655CAA@310e2> References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <7583D03C-D460-444F-9334-1674B16045D1@shaw.ca> <05C39765-BF3B-4247-88B7-3604079301B9@shaw.ca> <911F24A846E848E7827D4B8EAB655CAA@310e2> Message-ID: On 11/20/18 12:33 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > BTW, what's the story on Richard in SLC; is there a new address for the Terminal Wiki? > https://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page From mbbrutman at brutman.com Tue Nov 20 19:57:25 2018 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 17:57:25 -0800 Subject: [EXTERNAL] VCF PNW 2019: Exhibitors needed! In-Reply-To: <173b00fae1ba477bb1864510b7c30e72@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com> References: <173b00fae1ba477bb1864510b7c30e72@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com> Message-ID: Emulators do great things, but they can't replace the visceral experience of touching real old working hardware. Take the example the sound of a modem making a 1200 bps connection, or the grinding noise of a floppy drive zero-track seeking at bootup. Or how inconvenient it is to shuffle floppy disks around. Or the slightly out of focus look of a CRT monitor. (If you focused one area, you put another area out of focus ...) On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:22 PM rar wrote: > > I could imagine a talk/exhibit demonstrating vintage software. > > > The question that I have is how do we exhibit software (Hardware is challenging enough) > > A quick stab is on our website at https://museum.syssrc.com/category/software/ where online visitors can run some of the important 1980's software. > > I would love advice from the crowd on how to teach/display. It is a bit daunting to just sit down with 30 year old software even though it boots up in the browser. > > > (Perhaps laptops and monitors/projectors could be obtained locally, not really interested in in schlepping lots of equipment) > > Bob Roswell > broswell at syssrc.com > 410-771-5544 ext 4336 > > Computer Museum Highlights > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Michael Brutman via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 3:36 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: [EXTERNAL] VCF PNW 2019: Exhibitors needed! > > I'm trying to throw a party, but like any good host I'm worried about the food and entertainment and if anybody will show up. We already know there is no food at the museum so I need really, really good entertainment ... Right now we have seven exhibitors who have formally registered. We really need a total of 20 to 25 to make this work. We are still a few months away so I'm not in full scale panic mode yet, but I can feel it coming. ;-0 > > If you are interested in joining the party again, please register. An overview of what it means to be an exhibitor and the link to the registration form can be found here: > http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-pnw-exhibitor-registration/ . > > If you participated last year and don't want to do it again, I can understand that. To keep things interesting I'm trying to minimize the number of repeat exhibits. However, you can still help in a few > ways: > > - Know somebody who should join the party? Talk to them about exhibiting at 2019. A little nudging and mentoring from a friend can make it easier to bring new people in. > > - Have an interesting topic you want to talk about? We're looking for speakers too ... > > - Can you volunteer a few hours? Many hands makes light work, and also gets you into the museum for the weekend for free. > > Have any leads on people I should talk to or ideas for making the show better? Send them along ... I'd be happy to discuss. > > One final note: Contrary to any previously sent communication, we are not "selling" spots ... I'm actively trying to get rid of the exhibitor fee entirely, and will guarantee that it will be no more than $20 this year if it is charged at all. > > > Thanks, > Mike > VCF PNW President, CEO, and Executive Floppy Disk Shuffler From jim.manley at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 20:00:28 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 19:00:28 -0700 Subject: VCF PNW 2019: Exhibitors needed! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike, I teach science (all of ?em!) and computing at a small, rural, K-12 school in Montana (we graduated our Senior (sic) last year!) and we?re trying to figure out how to get all of our mini proto geeks to the museum (and house them) to both volunteer and exhibit some of our vintage systems at VCF PNW 2019. They?ve started to recognize me at all of the convenience stores in the five surrounding counties, so knocking over any more of them for petty cash is out! Going further than a surrounding county in Big Sky Country can mean traveling upwards of a thousand miles, or at least it feels like that. We have counties that are bigger than a bunch of those teeny-weenie states back East! Anyway, we?ll figure out how to get something through GoFundMe, etc. The kids are very motivated, but we don?t have any businesses that can sponsor and support us. In fact, The Gas Station just not only closed today, but they dug up the gas tanks and trucked them off with the pumps and sign out front! All the Best, Jim On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 13:36 Michael Brutman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm trying to throw a party, but like any good host I'm worried about > the food and entertainment and if anybody will show up. We already > know there is no food at the museum so I need really, really good > entertainment ... Right now we have seven exhibitors who have > formally registered. We really need a total of 20 to 25 to make this > work. We are still a few months away so I'm not in full scale panic > mode yet, but I can feel it coming. ;-0 > > If you are interested in joining the party again, please register. An > overview of what it means to be an exhibitor and the link to the > registration form can be found here: > http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-pnw-exhibitor-registration/ . > > If you participated last year and don't want to do it again, I can > understand that. To keep things interesting I'm trying to minimize > the number of repeat exhibits. However, you can still help in a few > ways: > > - Know somebody who should join the party? Talk to them about > exhibiting at 2019. A little nudging and mentoring from a friend can > make it easier to bring new people in. > > - Have an interesting topic you want to talk about? We're looking for > speakers too ... > > - Can you volunteer a few hours? Many hands makes light work, and > also gets you into the museum for the weekend for free. > > Have any leads on people I should talk to or ideas for making the show > better? Send them along ... I'd be happy to discuss. > > One final note: Contrary to any previously sent communication, we are > not "selling" spots ... I'm actively trying to get rid of the > exhibitor fee entirely, and will guarantee that it will be no more > than $20 this year if it is charged at all. > > > Thanks, > Mike > VCF PNW President, CEO, and Executive Floppy Disk Shuffler > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 20 21:18:53 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 19:18:53 -0800 Subject: George Keremedjiev Message-ID: <57df6225-c73b-917a-df7a-d385bc156676@bitsavers.org> This has not been a good few months for historical/vintage computer people https://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/bozeman-founder-of-american-computer-museum-dies/article_cad693eb-f70e-5f1c-94d4-78590e64b430.html From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Tue Nov 20 21:50:42 2018 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 22:50:42 -0500 Subject: Missing FORRTL In-Reply-To: <01QZV6PG73US001U2V@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01QZV6PG73US001U2V@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <0b43c747-66f6-8a37-c3f9-9398bb445ed0@comcast.net> On 11/20/2018 6:02 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> >> I'm trying to use the Compaq/HP Extended Math Library? (CXML) on a >> DEC Alpha under AXP Openvms 8.4 - Hobbyist License. >> >> Fortran 8.2 and CXML were part of the Hobbyist distribution I >> downloaded. >> >> CXML complains that FORRTL is not present or the version is too low, >> (it is not present - $Product show product - ) >> >> What am I missing? > > I haven't used CXML but I have done a lot of FORTRAN. > > As far as I understand it, language specific runtime libraries > including the > FORTRAN one come with the base operating system and do not normally > show up > separately in $ PRODUCT SHOW PRODUCT. > > In VAX days, the relevant file was SYS$SHARE:FORRTL.EXE.? On Alpha, it > looks > likely to be SYS$SHARE:DEC$FORRTL.EXE, however, it may not be quite that > simple as there are also other translated images present which may be > accessed > using a logical name - $ SHOW LOGICICAL *FORRTL* > > Try writing a Hello World FORTRAN program.? If that runs ok, your FORTRAN > runtime library is at least present and you probably need to > concentrate on > finding a newer version. > > If you have the extended message help installed, $ HELP /MESSAGE > may give you some helpful hints about whatever error message you are > getting. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. Yes, there is a SYS$SHARE:DEC$FORRTL.EXE in SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB], which was put there when the Fortran compiler was installed.? I can compile, link and run ordinary Fortran programs.?? However, I forced the installation of CXML and tried to compile one of the examples and that failed - couldn't find INCLUDE 'CXMLDEF.FOR'. I found this on the net and shows CXML installed in a different version of OpenVMS - The system is a Digital Personal Workstation 500au: ? $ product show product * ? ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------ ? PRODUCT???????????????????????????? KIT TYPE??? STATE ? ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------ ? DEC AXPVMS CXML V3.59-1???????????? Full LP???? Installed ? DEC AXPVMS DECNET_PHASE_IV V7.2-1?? Full LP???? Installed ? DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF V1.2-5?????????? Full LP???? Installed ? DEC AXPVMS FORRTL V7.3-1??????????? Full LP???? Installed ? DEC AXPVMS FORTRAN V7.3-1?????????? Full LP???? Installed ? DEC AXPVMS NS_NAV_EXPORT V3.3?????? Full LP???? Installed ? DEC AXPVMS OPENVMS V7.2-1?????????? Platform??? Installed ? DEC AXPVMS TCPIP V5.0-10??????????? Full LP???? Installed ? DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.2-1?????????????? Oper System Installed ? ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------ ? 9 items found and what I see is that there is a FORTRAN, FORRTL and CXML product installed.? I can't seem to find anything about the FORRTL product. Doug From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Nov 21 02:19:09 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:19:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: Removing PVA from a CRT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2018, Michael Thompson wrote: > the glass. We trimmed the Lexan to size, reassembled the Lexan and glass to > the front of the CRT, and glued the steel mounting band in place. It looks > great, and is probably a lot safer than just leaving the PVA out. You removed the steel band??? *That* is the implosion protection of a CRT. Christian From lproven at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 04:22:49 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:22:49 +0100 Subject: [EXTERNAL] VCF PNW 2019: Exhibitors needed! In-Reply-To: References: <173b00fae1ba477bb1864510b7c30e72@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 02:57, Michael Brutman via cctalk wrote: > > Emulators do great things, but they can't replace the visceral > experience of touching real old working hardware. Take the example > the sound of a modem making a 1200 bps connection, or the grinding > noise of a floppy drive zero-track seeking at bootup. Or how > inconvenient it is to shuffle floppy disks around. Or the slightly > out of focus look of a CRT monitor. (If you focused one area, you put > another area out of focus ...) I agree... but with an exception that came as a slight surprise to me when I first encountered it. I learned VMS and Fortran on a VAX 11-780 cluster in the mid-1980s. I used the computers daily for 3 years, but I never once saw them. They were hidden away in a back room, tended, I used to imagine, by operators in white lab coats, probably with very neat hair and heavy black-rimmed spectacles. So the first time that I used an emulated VAX over a serial line from a real DEC terminal, I was struck by how the experience was 100% faithful to the original. P.S. Please bottom-post, will you? -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 07:39:52 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:39:52 -0500 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <57df6225-c73b-917a-df7a-d385bc156676@bitsavers.org> References: <57df6225-c73b-917a-df7a-d385bc156676@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: If I might say so, Keremedjiev was one of the people in the 90's who helped define "vintage computer" and who selected which computers were part of its original pantheon (Altair, IMSAI,etc.). I recall his museum web site was one of the first web sites about vintage computing along with Ira Goldklang's TRS 80 site and a few others. I never made it there myself in person. I hope someone keeps the museum going. On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 11:16 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > This has not been a good few months for historical/vintage computer people > > > https://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/bozeman-founder-of-american-computer-museum-dies/article_cad693eb-f70e-5f1c-94d4-78590e64b430.html > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 21 08:06:47 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:06:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: cctalk/cctech Message-ID: <20181121140647.565A218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> I thought cctalk was supposed to be a complete superset of cctech, but looking at the cctech archives, I see a lot of posts that didn't make it to cctalk. Does one need to do both to see everything? Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 21 08:18:25 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 06:18:25 -0800 Subject: cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <20181121140647.565A218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181121140647.565A218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <38c2319b-9c08-6e04-dda2-2c24f93980f2@bitsavers.org> On 11/21/18 6:06 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I thought cctalk was supposed to be a complete superset of cctech, but > looking at the cctech archives, I see a lot of posts that didn't make it > to cctalk. Does one need to do both to see everything? > > Noel > Yes, unfortunately. Most of the "removing PVA" thread never made it to cctlk I think it's time for cctech to die. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Nov 21 08:34:42 2018 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:34:42 +0100 Subject: cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <38c2319b-9c08-6e04-dda2-2c24f93980f2@bitsavers.org> References: <20181121140647.565A218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <38c2319b-9c08-6e04-dda2-2c24f93980f2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20181121143442.GG9990@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 06:18:25AM -0800, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 11/21/18 6:06 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >I thought cctalk was supposed to be a complete superset of cctech, but > >looking at the cctech archives, I see a lot of posts that didn't make it > >to cctalk. Does one need to do both to see everything? > > > > Noel > > > > Yes, unfortunately. > Most of the "removing PVA" thread never made it to cctlk > > I think it's time for cctech to die. > > I agree! /P From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 09:19:30 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:19:30 -0500 Subject: cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: <20181121143442.GG9990@Update.UU.SE> References: <20181121140647.565A218C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <38c2319b-9c08-6e04-dda2-2c24f93980f2@bitsavers.org> <20181121143442.GG9990@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 9:34 AM Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 06:18:25AM -0800, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/21/18 6:06 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > >I thought cctalk was supposed to be a complete superset of cctech, but > > >looking at the cctech archives, I see a lot of posts that didn't make it > > >to cctalk. Does one need to do both to see everything? > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > > Yes, unfortunately. > > Most of the "removing PVA" thread never made it to cctlk > > > > I think it's time for cctech to die. > > > > > > I agree! > > Not die so much as one become an alias of the other. I actually use them both, depending on the nature of my question. Someone should run a set of tests. b From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 09:22:16 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:22:16 -0500 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <7583D03C-D460-444F-9334-1674B16045D1@shaw.ca> <05C39765-BF3B-4247-88B7-3604079301B9@shaw.ca> <911F24A846E848E7827D4B8EAB655CAA@310e2> Message-ID: <56C17C3075F44D208F184D15C56B6297@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow via cctalk" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 7:44 PM Subject: Re: Battery warning in Falco terminals > > > On 11/20/18 12:33 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > >> BTW, what's the story on Richard in SLC; is there a new address for the Terminal Wiki? >> > > https://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page > > That address consistently returns "This site can't be reached." BTW, for some reason I get some of your (Al's) posts _after_ I've received replies to them, sometimes almost a day later; very confusing. It seems to be related to the fact that some of your posts are addressed to 'cctalk at classiccmp' while others are addressed to 'General Discussion'. Am I the only one to whom that happens? Any idea why? From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 09:52:48 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:52:48 -0500 Subject: Odd Hp leds in dip package Message-ID: Hello. Encountered a couple odd parts in the pile today, not sure if they are anything special. Hp branded dip packages with gold leads. They appear to be leds in 4 grid patterns on the face. Im curious what they are out of, most likely an old hp computer or calculator. Part number on the back is hp5033592-101 i could not find any information online about them. If they are of use to someone with a hp conputer let me know. If not im trying to find a datasheet and use them in a project. Pictures : https://i.postimg.cc/dtJTGZfm/2018-11-21-10-48-34.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/pL6hNGLq/2018-11-21-10-49-19.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/C1Nw054S/2018-11-21-10-50-37.jpg From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 21 10:30:58 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:30:58 -0800 Subject: Odd Hp leds in dip package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67f685b0-91ce-ebf5-339a-35183aee4cde@bitsavers.org> On 11/21/18 7:52 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > Hello. Encountered a couple odd parts in the pile today, not sure if they > are anything special. they're pretty cool quad 5x7 alphanumeric LEDs check http://bitsavers.org/components/hp From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 21 10:34:49 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:34:49 -0800 Subject: Odd Hp leds in dip package In-Reply-To: <67f685b0-91ce-ebf5-339a-35183aee4cde@bitsavers.org> References: <67f685b0-91ce-ebf5-339a-35183aee4cde@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3fb61724-8e81-7903-5616-57f0c09d5fdf@bitsavers.org> probably hdsp-2010 1988 opto catalog pg 609 in the scan On 11/21/18 8:30 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 11/21/18 7:52 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: >> Hello. Encountered a couple odd parts in the pile today, not sure if they >> are anything special. > > they're pretty cool quad 5x7 alphanumeric LEDs > > check http://bitsavers.org/components/hp > > From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 21 10:42:45 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:42:45 -0600 Subject: Odd Hp leds in dip package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5BF58B05.4000008@pico-systems.com> On 11/21/2018 09:52 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > Hello. Encountered a couple odd parts in the pile today, not sure if they > are anything special. Hp branded dip packages with gold leads. They appear > to be leds in 4 grid patterns on the face. Im curious what they are out of, > most likely an old hp computer or calculator. > > Part number on the back is hp5033592-101 > > i could not find any information online about them. If they are of use to > someone with a hp conputer let me know. If not im trying to find a > datasheet and use them in a project. > > Pictures : > > https://i.postimg.cc/dtJTGZfm/2018-11-21-10-48-34.jpg > > https://i.postimg.cc/pL6hNGLq/2018-11-21-10-49-19.jpg > > https://i.postimg.cc/C1Nw054S/2018-11-21-10-50-37.jpg > These are complete dot-matrix alphanumeric displays, with the driver chips in the package. The HP5033 is the base part number. They are likely to be 30+ years old, and documentation might be hard to come by. Jon From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 11:23:34 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:23:34 -0800 Subject: Odd Hp leds in dip package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A59A56A-603A-4833-873E-3AB617A4AF71@gmail.com> Try to look up HDSP-2450. These are 5x7 alphanumeric displays with shift register drivers included. Yours might be an earlier version of that, or just a commercial temp version? of that (the HDSPs are extended temp -55/85C). Maybe the internal part used in the HP9825 or HP 9830 displays, then later commercially sold as the HDSP 2xxx series. I can scan the HDSP data sheet if you can?t find it online. Maybe this will help: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=2ahUKEwirg4e0_-XeAhWHd98KHVa5AD8QFjAEegQIJhAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Felectron-pv.com%2FPDFs%2FLED%2FHDSP-2xxx%2520AppNote.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1JF1llgVbDdAbcK8UMBie9 If you don?t need them I?ll take them :-D Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: devin davison , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 7:53 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Odd Hp leds in dip package Hello. Encountered a couple odd parts in the pile today, not sure if they are anything special. Hp branded dip packages with gold leads. They appear to be leds in 4 grid patterns on the face. Im curious what they are out of, most likely an old hp computer or calculator. Part number on the back is hp5033592-101 i could not find any information online about them. If they are of use to someone with a hp conputer let me know. If not im trying to find a datasheet and use them in a project. Pictures : https://i.postimg.cc/dtJTGZfm/2018-11-21-10-48-34.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/pL6hNGLq/2018-11-21-10-49-19.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/C1Nw054S/2018-11-21-10-50-37.jpg From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 11:49:14 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:49:14 -0600 Subject: Vintage Datacomm Porn (SFW) Message-ID: I have completed a scan of the December 1972 issue of "Communications News" and posted it to archive.org: https://archive.org/details/CommunicationsNewsV9N12/page/n0 Lots of great info and (mostly tiny) pics in here for fans of terminals, modems, early online networks and the growing data communications and computer telephony industries. And a big color ad for a Silent700 ASR! Google Books holds a lot of the other industry journals (the "______ World" types) but as far as I can tell, there are no other issues of this publication online. -j From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 12:04:11 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 13:04:11 -0500 Subject: Odd Hp leds in dip package In-Reply-To: <5A59A56A-603A-4833-873E-3AB617A4AF71@gmail.com> References: <5A59A56A-603A-4833-873E-3AB617A4AF71@gmail.com> Message-ID: Looks like the HDSP-2490: http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/articleview.php?item=9 Datasheet: https://mkmakerspace.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/HDSP-2490.pdf These are shift register displays, you clock in column data on a common clock. Similar to the HDSP-2010 and relatives. Quite expensive when new, still very desirable today. Don't let the smoke out :P Thanks, Jonathan On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 12:36 PM Curious Marc via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Try to look up HDSP-2450. These are 5x7 alphanumeric displays with shift > register drivers included. Yours might be an earlier version of that, or > just a commercial temp version of that (the HDSPs are extended temp > -55/85C). Maybe the internal part used in the HP9825 or HP 9830 displays, > then later commercially sold as the HDSP 2xxx series. I can scan the HDSP > data sheet if you can?t find it online. Maybe this will help: > https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=2ahUKEwirg4e0_-XeAhWHd98KHVa5AD8QFjAEegQIJhAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Felectron-pv.com%2FPDFs%2FLED%2FHDSP-2xxx%2520AppNote.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1JF1llgVbDdAbcK8UMBie9 > > If you don?t need them I?ll take them :-D > > Marc > > > > From: cctalk on behalf of " > cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Reply-To: devin davison , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Date: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 7:53 AM > To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Subject: Odd Hp leds in dip package > > > > Hello. Encountered a couple odd parts in the pile today, not sure if they > > are anything special. Hp branded dip packages with gold leads. They appear > > to be leds in 4 grid patterns on the face. Im curious what they are out of, > > most likely an old hp computer or calculator. > > > > Part number on the back is hp5033592-101 > > > > i could not find any information online about them. If they are of use to > > someone with a hp conputer let me know. If not im trying to find a > > datasheet and use them in a project. > > > > Pictures : > > > > https://i.postimg.cc/dtJTGZfm/2018-11-21-10-48-34.jpg > > > > https://i.postimg.cc/pL6hNGLq/2018-11-21-10-49-19.jpg > > > > https://i.postimg.cc/C1Nw054S/2018-11-21-10-50-37.jpg > > > > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 12:36:42 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 13:36:42 -0500 Subject: Odd Hp leds in dip package In-Reply-To: <3fb61724-8e81-7903-5616-57f0c09d5fdf@bitsavers.org> References: <67f685b0-91ce-ebf5-339a-35183aee4cde@bitsavers.org> <3fb61724-8e81-7903-5616-57f0c09d5fdf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Those would make the coolest wristwatch ever. I can help wth PCB design and microcontroller firmware if that's your intended use; I made a watch with an old LED bubble display a while ago ( https://www.andersknelson.com/blog/?p=11) though I'm aware these are matrix displays and not seven-segment. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 1:31 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > probably hdsp-2010 > 1988 opto catalog pg 609 in the scan > > On 11/21/18 8:30 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > On 11/21/18 7:52 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > >> Hello. Encountered a couple odd parts in the pile today, not sure if > they > >> are anything special. > > > > they're pretty cool quad 5x7 alphanumeric LEDs > > > > check http://bitsavers.org/components/hp > > > > > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Nov 21 12:40:04 2018 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:40:04 -0800 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals In-Reply-To: <56C17C3075F44D208F184D15C56B6297@310e2> References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <7583D03C-D460-444F-9334-1674B16045D1@shaw.ca> <05C39765-BF3B-4247-88B7-3604079301B9@shaw.ca> <911F24A846E848E7827D4B8EAB655CAA@310e2> <56C17C3075F44D208F184D15C56B6297@310e2> Message-ID: <20181121104004.1080d6da@asrock> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:22:16 -0500 Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Kossow via cctalk" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 7:44 PM > Subject: Re: Battery warning in Falco terminals > > > > > > > > On 11/20/18 12:33 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > > >> BTW, what's the story on Richard in SLC; is there a new address > >> for the Terminal Wiki? > > > > https://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page > > > > > > That address consistently returns "This site can't be reached." I have no problems getting to the site... --snip-- Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 12:59:36 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:59:36 -0800 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals In-Reply-To: <56C17C3075F44D208F184D15C56B6297@310e2> References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <7583D03C-D460-444F-9334-1674B16045D1@shaw.ca> <05C39765-BF3B-4247-88B7-3604079301B9@shaw.ca> <911F24A846E848E7827D4B8EAB655CAA@310e2> <56C17C3075F44D208F184D15C56B6297@310e2> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 7:23 AM Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > BTW, for some reason I get some of your (Al's) posts _after_ I've received replies to them, sometimes almost a day later; very confusing. It seems to be related to the fact that some of your posts are addressed to 'cctalk at classiccmp' while others are addressed to 'General Discussion'. > > Am I the only one to whom that happens? Any idea why? No, you are not the only one that has been seeing this. I have only noticed this happening in the last couple of weeks. In some cases I have been seeing replies to original posts hours or a day before I finally receive the original post. Off hand I don't recall if I have seen this with posters other than Al. Is this a gmail thing, or a classiccmp server thing? From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 13:02:38 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:02:38 -0500 Subject: Odd Hp leds in dip package In-Reply-To: References: <67f685b0-91ce-ebf5-339a-35183aee4cde@bitsavers.org> <3fb61724-8e81-7903-5616-57f0c09d5fdf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: You and me are thinking alike. Just making sure im not taking away a hard to find part from someone else that desperately needs it. --Devin D. On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 1:36 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Those would make the coolest wristwatch ever. I can help wth PCB design and > microcontroller firmware if that's your intended use; I made a watch with > an old LED bubble display a while ago ( > https://www.andersknelson.com/blog/?p=11) though I'm aware these are > matrix > displays and not seven-segment. > > =] > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > > On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 1:31 PM Al Kossow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > probably hdsp-2010 > > 1988 opto catalog pg 609 in the scan > > > > On 11/21/18 8:30 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 11/21/18 7:52 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > >> Hello. Encountered a couple odd parts in the pile today, not sure if > > they > > >> are anything special. > > > > > > they're pretty cool quad 5x7 alphanumeric LEDs > > > > > > check http://bitsavers.org/components/hp > > > > > > > > > > > From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Nov 21 14:03:11 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:03:11 -0500 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <16737de8e1a-1ec3-20ae@webjas-vab095.srv.aolmail.net> I? sold? him my? extra classic 8? with the plexi covers on it... sn 200? series....? we? kept? sn #18 I was? at the? computer biz in those? days? so this was over? 26 years? ago.? Enjoyed? our? visit. ? Sad? to see? him? go... ? scarry? to hear? of this? being? close to that age? also. ? Good bye? George... ? Ed# ? In a message dated 11/21/2018 6:40:13 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? If I might say so, Keremedjiev was one of the people in the 90's who helped define "vintage computer" and who selected which computers were part of its original pantheon (Altair, IMSAI,etc.). I recall his museum web site was one of the first web sites about vintage computing along with Ira Goldklang's TRS 80 site and a few others. I never made it there myself in person. I hope someone keeps the museum going. On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 11:16 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > This has not been a good few months for historical/vintage computer people > > > https://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/bozeman-founder-of-american-computer-museum-dies/article_cad693eb-f70e-5f1c-94d4-78590e64b430.html > > From mike_t_norris at hotmail.com Wed Nov 21 14:08:12 2018 From: mike_t_norris at hotmail.com (Mike Norris) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:08:12 +0000 Subject: Manuals looking for a home Message-ID: Hi Guys, I have the following manuals looking for a home, free except for postage/delivery. (Based in UK). 1. 11/44 Field Maintenance Print Set (includes memory inverter, MS11-M, TU58) 2. RWP04 moving head disk subsystem maintenance manual 3. RM05 Disk Subsystem User guide + RM05 Fault Isolation Guide + RM05 IPB + RM05 Disk Subsystem Service Manual 4. DEC Station 220 Installation and Operations Guide 5. RA80 Maintenance Guide + RA81 Disk Drive Maintenance Guide + RA60 Maintenance Guide 6. MDM Microvax Diagnostic Monitor User's guide + Wartips (Warrington Support) - SID Registers, Boot lists, DCL Bits 7 Bobs. Will happily give further details if required, otherwise these go into recycling Regards Mike Norris From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Nov 21 14:24:55 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:24:55 -0600 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <16737de8e1a-1ec3-20ae@webjas-vab095.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16737de8e1a-1ec3-20ae@webjas-vab095.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <20181121202504.DEC214E72C@mx2.ezwind.net> At 02:03 PM 11/21/2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >I? sold? him my? extra classic 8? with the plexi covers on it... sn 200? series....? we? kept? sn #18 Side question: What process is turning non-blanking spaces into ISO-8859-1 circumflex-A for you? I see '?' all throughout your emails. - John From mark.darvill at mac.com Wed Nov 21 14:51:15 2018 From: mark.darvill at mac.com (Mark Darvill) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:51:15 +0000 Subject: Manuals looking for a home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20FA1E92-8B93-43A3-ACB8-E75002883755@mac.com> Hi Mike, Could I take 3, 5 & 6. I am also in the uk. If that is ok, I will send you my details and payment for postage. Thanks, Mark Sent from my iPhone > On 21 Nov 2018, at 20:08, Mike Norris via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > > I have the following manuals looking for a home, free except for postage/delivery. (Based in UK). > > > 1. > 11/44 Field Maintenance Print Set (includes memory inverter, MS11-M, TU58) > 2. > RWP04 moving head disk subsystem maintenance manual > 3. > RM05 Disk Subsystem User guide + RM05 Fault Isolation Guide + RM05 IPB + RM05 Disk Subsystem Service Manual > 4. > DEC Station 220 Installation and Operations Guide > 5. > RA80 Maintenance Guide + RA81 Disk Drive Maintenance Guide + RA60 Maintenance Guide > 6. > MDM Microvax Diagnostic Monitor User's guide + Wartips (Warrington Support) - SID Registers, Boot lists, DCL Bits 7 Bobs. > > > Will happily give further details if required, otherwise these go into recycling > > > Regards Mike Norris From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Nov 21 15:17:27 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:17:27 -0500 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <20181121202504.DEC214E72C@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a@webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> who? knows?? ?what? mail program? are? you using that? ?does that? In a message dated 11/21/2018 1:25:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? At 02:03 PM 11/21/2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >I? sold? him my? extra classic 8? with the plexi covers on it... sn 200? series....? we? kept? sn #18 Side question: What process is turning non-blanking spaces into ISO-8859-1 circumflex-A for you? I see '?' all throughout your emails. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Nov 21 15:26:17 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:26:17 -0600 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a@webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> References: <20181121202504.DEC214E72C@mx2.ezwind.net> <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a@webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <20181121212625.D0D2427434@mx1.ezwind.net> At 03:17 PM 11/21/2018, ED SHARPE wrote: >who knows? what mail program are you using that does that? A classic computer one, of course. Eudora 7.1 circa 2006. - John From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Nov 21 15:46:55 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:46:55 -0500 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <20181121212625.D0D2427434@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20181121212625.D0D2427434@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <167383d80ab-1ec1-22b7@webjas-vab058.srv.aolmail.net> sounds like your nail program fault or setting. Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 John Foust via cctalk wrote: At 03:17 PM 11/21/2018, ED SHARPE wrote: >who knows? what mail program are you using that does that? A classic computer one, of course. Eudora 7.1 circa 2006. - John From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 15:53:42 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:53:42 -0500 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a@webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> References: <20181121202504.DEC214E72C@mx2.ezwind.net> <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a@webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Those chars c o me from microsoft i.e. I bet you are using Outlook On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 4:17 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk who knows? what mail program are you using that does that? > > > In a message dated 11/21/2018 1:25:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > At 02:03 PM 11/21/2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > >I? sold? him my? extra classic 8? with the plexi covers on it... sn 200? > series....? we? kept? sn #18 > > Side question: What process is turning non-blanking spaces into ISO-8859-1 > circumflex-A for you? > > I see '?' all throughout your emails. > > - John > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 21 16:19:13 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:19:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a@webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a@webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Ed, It is YOUR mail program that is doing the extraneous insertions, and then not showing them to you when you view your own messages. ALL of us see either extraneous characters, or extraneous spaces in everything that you send! I use PINE in a shell account, and they show up as a whole bunch of inappropriate spaces. Seriously, YOUR mail program is inserting extraneous stuff. Everybody? but you sees it. > who? knows?? ?what? mail program? are? you using that? ?does that? It is YOUR mail program that is "doing that"!! On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > who? knows?? ?what? mail program? are? you using that? ?does that? > > > In a message dated 11/21/2018 1:25:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > ? > At 02:03 PM 11/21/2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >> I? sold? him my? extra classic 8? with the plexi covers on it... sn 200? series....? we? kept? sn #18 > > Side question: What process is turning non-blanking spaces into ISO-8859-1 > circumflex-A for you? > > I see '?' all throughout your emails. > > - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 21 16:21:16 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:21:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <20181121202504.DEC214E72C@mx2.ezwind.net> <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a@webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Those chars (excess crap in Ed's posts) c o me from microsoft i.e. I bet > you are using Outlook I don't get such extraaneous crap from anybody else using Outhouse. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 21 16:36:22 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:36:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a@webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a@webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > who? knows?? Maybe George Keremedjiev would have known. He was from the era of [several] standardized character sets, BEFORE the denial responses of "Well, MY mail program can display the stuff thet MY mail program creates, so everybody else's must be wrong!" From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Nov 21 16:46:42 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 22:46:42 +0000 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a@webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On 11/21/18 5:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Ed, > It is YOUR mail program that is doing the extraneous insertions, and > then not showing them to you when you view your own messages. > > ALL of us see either extraneous characters, or extraneous spaces in > everything that you send! > I use PINE in a shell account, and they show up as a whole bunch of > inappropriate spaces. > > Seriously, YOUR mail program is inserting extraneous stuff. > Everybody? but you sees it. > I don't.? I didn't see it until someone replied with a copy of the offending text included. bill From js at cimmeri.com Wed Nov 21 16:55:25 2018 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:55:25 -0500 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a@webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <5BF5E25D.1010206@cimmeri.com> On 11/21/2018 5:46 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 11/21/18 5:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Ed, >> It is YOUR mail program that is doing the extraneous insertions, and >> then not showing them to you when you view your own messages. >> >> ALL of us see either extraneous characters, or extraneous spaces in >> everything that you send! >> I use PINE in a shell account, and they show up as a whole bunch of >> inappropriate spaces. >> >> Seriously, YOUR mail program is inserting extraneous stuff. >> Everybody? but you sees it. >> > I don't. I didn't see it until someone replied with a > > copy of the offending text included. > > bill I see them, and have for a long time. - j. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 21 17:01:24 2018 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 23:01:24 +0000 Subject: Manuals looking for a home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07179fe4-d98b-b898-3ce1-978fcb66c082@ntlworld.com> On 21/11/2018 20:08, Mike Norris via cctalk wrote: > Hi Guys, > > > I have the following manuals looking for a home, free except for postage/delivery. (Based in UK). > > > 1. > 11/44 Field Maintenance Print Set (includes memory inverter, MS11-M, TU58) > 2. > RWP04 moving head disk subsystem maintenance manual > 3. > RM05 Disk Subsystem User guide + RM05 Fault Isolation Guide + RM05 IPB + RM05 Disk Subsystem Service Manual > 4. > DEC Station 220 Installation and Operations Guide > 5. > RA80 Maintenance Guide + RA81 Disk Drive Maintenance Guide + RA60 Maintenance Guide > 6. > MDM Microvax Diagnostic Monitor User's guide + Wartips (Warrington Support) - SID Registers, Boot lists, DCL Bits 7 Bobs. > > > Will happily give further details if required, otherwise these go into recycling > Hi, It looks like you have a taker for some of those manuals already. To be honest I have too much stuff already so I'm hoping that someone else does come along to take (1), (2) and (4), but no-one does, please let me know and I'll pony up the necessary postage. Thanks Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 21 17:10:50 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 23:10:50 +0000 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a@webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On 21/11/2018 22:46, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/21/18 5:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Ed, >> It is YOUR mail program that is doing the extraneous insertions, and >> then not showing them to you when you view your own messages. >> >> Seriously, YOUR mail program is inserting extraneous stuff. >> Everybody? but you sees it. > I don't.? I didn't see it until someone replied with a > copy of the offending text included. I see the extra spaces, which are non-break spaces. I think the reason John was seeing uppercase A-circumflex characters is because Ed's email is using UTF-8; however John's email client isn't respecting the header that says so, and is using Western (ISO-8859-1). NBSP in UTF-8 is A-circumflex in Western. Amusingly, Bill's reply also contains a NBSP (after the full stop in "don't".), which displays as A-circumflex when I change the coding in my client. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From shumaker at att.net Wed Nov 21 17:16:14 2018 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:16:14 -0800 Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> References: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> Message-ID: It lives!! Retrieved the EPay ASR33 over the weekend.?? Unit described as "As is - for parts" turned out to be almost completely intact school surplus unit stored inside somewhere in Orange county since removed from service in mid 80s (professionally maintained w service tag dated 1984).? Realized as soon as I saw it up close that it was in far better shape than expected. Plastic parts have three minor breaks not immediately visible and probably reparable Case parts missing:? chad box, tape punch cover; copy tray Internally, seems completely intact except for 2 of the 4 gold pins in the tape reader along with their springs Keyboard cover has 2 plastic pins broken but unit stays in place and keys move correctly except for the space bar which doesn't return when pressed.? Keys are worn but in fairly good shape although two are cracked. Weird comms setup.? Although from my reading it sounds as there was no standard, this one doesn't match anything I've found in the hobbyist lit so far:? Neither plug 2 nor the terminal strip are in use at all (terminal strip only has pos 1 and 2 in use for power).? Unit has two external cables that appear original since they both have the same thread style cable ties in use in the internal wire harness. One cable ends in a molex plug and the other in a small? "centronics" style plug.? Wires for the centronics style connector terminate in plug 1 and 3.? Another (related?) anomaly:? the large resistor associated with the current loop setup isn't present. So, inspected everything, as recommended here, replaced the print hammer pad, checked caps and all fuses.? Motor turned freely by hand when gently pushed. Plugged it in, turned it on to local and it fired right up.? All keyboard functions appear to work. Questions: Anyone recognize the cabling setup? Are the missing gold colored double pins in the tape reader replaceable? What sort of adhesive works for cracks in the cover under the hood photos here for the curious: https://photos.app.goo.gl/endqTANG3mZgWG3q8 Steve On 10/26/2018 7:39 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > OK, got it.? Will be my first one. Now, how does one transport the > thing??? Does it easily come off the pedestal??? Can it be laid on > it's back?? Anything need to be secured before it gets moved? > > Steve > > n 10/24/2018 6:56 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-Machine-Model-3320-3WA-Teletypewriter-AS-IS-FOR-PARTS-local-pick-up/142981290439?hash=item214a5959c7:g:UXoAAOSwmXJbylEN:rk:6:pf:1&frcectupt=true >> >> >> b >> > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 17:29:51 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:29:51 -0800 Subject: Odd Hp leds in dip package In-Reply-To: <3fb61724-8e81-7903-5616-57f0c09d5fdf@bitsavers.org> References: <67f685b0-91ce-ebf5-339a-35183aee4cde@bitsavers.org> <3fb61724-8e81-7903-5616-57f0c09d5fdf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: But the HDSP 2010 have only 12 pins. I think his are 28 pins, hence the HDSP 2450 suggestion, the closest I could find working off my 1986 catalog. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: Al Kossow , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 10:31 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: Odd Hp leds in dip package probably hdsp-2010 1988 opto catalog pg 609 in the scan On 11/21/18 8:30 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: On 11/21/18 7:52 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: Hello. Encountered a couple odd parts in the pile today, not sure if they are anything special. they're pretty cool quad 5x7 alphanumeric LEDs check http://bitsavers.org/components/hp From rtomek at ceti.pl Wed Nov 21 17:34:06 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 00:34:06 +0100 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <20181121202504.DEC214E72C@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <16737de8e1a-1ec3-20ae@webjas-vab095.srv.aolmail.net> <20181121202504.DEC214E72C@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20181121233406.GA6698@tau1.ceti.pl> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 02:24:55PM -0600, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 02:03 PM 11/21/2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >I? sold? him my? extra classic 8? with the plexi covers on it... sn 200? series....? we? kept? sn #18 > > Side question: What process is turning non-blanking spaces into ISO-8859-1 > circumflex-A for you? > > I see '?' all throughout your emails. Myself, under mutt, I see doublespaces. But! I selected some of the original text from Ed, c-pasted onto another console and... $ echo "I? sold? him my? extra classic 8? with the" | hexdump -C 00000000 49 c2 a0 20 73 6f 6c 64 c2 a0 20 68 69 6d 20 6d |I.. sold.. him m| 00000010 79 c2 a0 20 65 78 74 72 61 20 63 6c 61 73 73 69 |y.. extra classi| 00000020 63 20 38 c2 a0 20 77 69 74 68 20 74 68 65 0a |c 8.. with the.| 0000002f See? There are extra "c2 a0" bytes in front of some 0x20 spaces. I wonder how did they get there? -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From jim.manley at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 18:11:04 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:11:04 -0700 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <57df6225-c73b-917a-df7a-d385bc156676@bitsavers.org> References: <57df6225-c73b-917a-df7a-d385bc156676@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I spent six weeks at MSU Bozeman this past Summer integrating a performance-boosting, wide-area network-distributed database enhancement to an augmented reality project sponsored through the Western Transportation Institute there. I thoroughly enjoyed visiting the museum, which is a couple of blocks from WTI, and I was working some weekend and Summer time into my schedule to volunteer there. However, with George?s passing, that means I?ll need to step up even more, despite the 6.5-hour round trip from where I?m teaching STEM, including computing and robotics. I started as one of the early senior docents at the Computer History Museum when it was in the uninsulated metal Butler buildings across from Hangar One at Moffett Field. Then I participated in the move to its current location in Silicon Graphics? former international marketing building on North Shoreline Blvd, followed by the opening of the R|Evolution exhibit. I then worked on the exhibition of Babbage Difference Engine Design Number Two, Serial Number Two, which I presented, operated, and maintained. That?s real vintage computing, where the operator isn?t just the power supply, but also provides critical timing as the clock, cranking steadily despite a change in required force from a few pounds up to about 25 pounds during each cycle! All the Best, Jim On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 20:31 Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > This has not been a good few months for historical/vintage computer people > > > https://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/bozeman-founder-of-american-computer-museum-dies/article_cad693eb-f70e-5f1c-94d4-78590e64b430.html > > From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Nov 21 18:20:25 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:20:25 -0500 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16738ca0d50-1ec6-2425@webjas-vab030.srv.aolmail.net> wrong not everybody sees it this is the only list serve problems... I suppose modern email programs either do not see or know what to do with the characters... please consider using the delete key and not reading things frI'm me if it bothers,you thanks ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: On 21/11/2018 22:46, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/21/18 5:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Ed, >> It is YOUR mail program that is doing the extraneous insertions, and >> then not showing them to you when you view your own messages. >> >> Seriously, YOUR mail program is inserting extraneous stuff. >> Everybody? but you sees it. > I don't.? I didn't see it until someone replied with a > copy of the offending text included. I see the extra spaces, which are non-break spaces. I think the reason John was seeing uppercase A-circumflex characters is because Ed's email is using UTF-8; however John's email client isn't respecting the header that says so, and is using Western (ISO-8859-1). NBSP in UTF-8 is A-circumflex in Western. Amusingly, Bill's reply also contains a NBSP (after the full stop in "don't".), which displays as A-circumflex when I change the coding in my client. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Nov 21 18:23:20 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:23:20 -0500 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16738ccbb15-1ec3-24d5@webjas-vad232.srv.aolmail.net> re blank spaces,yep they get in there... ed# On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: On 21/11/2018 22:46, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/21/18 5:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Ed, >> It is YOUR mail program that is doing the extraneous insertions, and >> then not showing them to you when you view your own messages. >> >> Seriously, YOUR mail program is inserting extraneous stuff. >> Everybody? but you sees it. > I don't.? I didn't see it until someone replied with a > copy of the offending text included. I see the extra spaces, which are non-break spaces. I think the reason John was seeing uppercase A-circumflex characters is because Ed's email is using UTF-8; however John's email client isn't respecting the header that says so, and is using Western (ISO-8859-1). NBSP in UTF-8 is A-circumflex in Western. Amusingly, Bill's reply also contains a NBSP (after the full stop in "don't".), which displays as A-circumflex when I change the coding in my client. -- Pete Pete Turnbull Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Nov 21 18:28:23 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:28:23 -0500 Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16738d158f0-1ebf-987@webjas-vac171.srv.aolmail.net> Steve... many are,missing the Chad box... I bet there,are,enough people here mkissing some to Warrent.... making some. It might be a good group project. ed# www.smecc.org Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: It lives!! Retrieved the EPay ASR33 over the weekend.?? Unit described as "As is - for parts" turned out to be almost completely intact school surplus unit stored inside somewhere in Orange county since removed from service in mid 80s (professionally maintained w service tag dated 1984).? Realized as soon as I saw it up close that it was in far better shape than expected. Plastic parts have three minor breaks not immediately visible and probably reparable Case parts missing:? chad box, tape punch cover; copy tray Internally, seems completely intact except for 2 of the 4 gold pins in the tape reader along with their springs Keyboard cover has 2 plastic pins broken but unit stays in place and keys move correctly except for the space bar which doesn't return when pressed.? Keys are worn but in fairly good shape although two are cracked. Weird comms setup.? Although from my reading it sounds as there was no standard, this one doesn't match anything I've found in the hobbyist lit so far:? Neither plug 2 nor the terminal strip are in use at all (terminal strip only has pos 1 and 2 in use for power).? Unit has two external cables that appear original since they both have the same thread style cable ties in use in the internal wire harness. One cable ends in a molex plug and the other in a small? "centronics" style plug.? Wires for the centronics style connector terminate in plug 1 and 3.? Another (related?) anomaly:? the large resistor associated with the current loop setup isn't present. So, inspected everything, as recommended here, replaced the print hammer pad, checked caps and all fuses.? Motor turned freely by hand when gently pushed. Plugged it in, turned it on to local and it fired right up.? All keyboard functions appear to work. Questions: Anyone recognize the cabling setup? Are the missing gold colored double pins in the tape reader replaceable? What sort of adhesive works for cracks in the cover under the hood photos here for the curious: https://photos.app.goo.gl/endqTANG3mZgWG3q8 Steve On 10/26/2018 7:39 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > OK, got it.? Will be my first one. Now, how does one transport the > thing??? Does it easily come off the pedestal??? Can it be laid on > it's back?? Anything need to be secured before it gets moved? > > Steve > > n 10/24/2018 6:56 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-Machine-Model-3320-3WA-Teletypewriter-AS-IS-FOR-PARTS-local-pick-up/142981290439?hash=item214a5959c7:g:UXoAAOSwmXJbylEN:rk:6:pf:1&frcectupt=true >> >> >> b >> > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 21 19:04:11 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:04:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <16738ca0d50-1ec6-2425@webjas-vab030.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16738ca0d50-1ec6-2425@webjas-vab030.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > wrong not everybody sees it this is the only list serve problems... I > suppose modern email programs either do not see or know what to do with > the characters... please consider using the delete key and not reading > things frI'm me if it bothers,you > thanks ed# That is a very good hypothesis. "Modern" (bordering on profanity in this list) email programs might insert characters that we are not intended to notice in support of "features" (also bordering on profanity). When they encounter those special characters, they know to activate that "feature", and suppress their display. But email progams from "LAST MONTH" (prior to the "10 year rule"?) do NOT recognize, respect, nor understand those "modern" "control" characters. ("Modern" companies, such as Microsoft, Apple, AOL, etc. deprecate the use of any software or hardware that is not "current") Email seems to be being handled like word processor file formats - what happens when you try to load a document from a current version prograam into a copy of a previous version of the program? You would never know there was an issue if everybody that you associate is using the same current programs. Q: is line wrap ON or OFF in the program? Q: is "format: flowed" ON or OFF? Either/both might insert "non-breaking spaces". These do not seem to be adequately documented in this context - (differentiation between "bug" and "feature"). From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Nov 21 21:14:23 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 22:14:23 -0500 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <167396955cc-1ec1-2547@webjas-vac050.srv.aolmail.net> some blank spaces whereas us 2 instead of one is some times bad mr. hand Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 Fred Cisin wrote: Ed, It is YOUR mail program that is doing the extraneous insertions, and then not showing them to you when you view your own messages. ALL of us see either extraneous characters, or extraneous spaces in everything that you send! I use PINE in a shell account, and they show up as a whole bunch of inappropriate spaces. Seriously, YOUR mail program is inserting extraneous stuff. Everybody? but you sees it. > who? knows?? ?what? mail program? are? you using that? ?does that? It is YOUR mail program that is "doing that"!! On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > who? knows?? ?what? mail program? are? you using that? ?does that? > > > In a message dated 11/21/2018 1:25:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > ? > At 02:03 PM 11/21/2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >> I? sold? him my? extra classic 8? with the plexi covers on it... sn 200? series....? we? kept? sn #18 > > Side question: What process is turning non-blanking spaces into ISO-8859-1 > circumflex-A for you? > > I see '?' all throughout your emails. > > - John From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Nov 21 21:33:40 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 22:33:40 -0500 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> if I type an extra space I am sure every one sees it. but the chars not everyone sees them. what I do figure us the older email programs are not accepting of all charter sets? ( dunno if I am using the right term) Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 Fred Cisin wrote: Ed, It is YOUR mail program that is doing the extraneous insertions, and then not showing them to you when you view your own messages. ALL of us see either extraneous characters, or extraneous spaces in everything that you send! I use PINE in a shell account, and they show up as a whole bunch of inappropriate spaces. Seriously, YOUR mail program is inserting extraneous stuff. Everybody? but you sees it. > who? knows?? ?what? mail program? are? you using that? ?does that? It is YOUR mail program that is "doing that"!! On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > who? knows?? ?what? mail program? are? you using that? ?does that? > > > In a message dated 11/21/2018 1:25:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > ? > At 02:03 PM 11/21/2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >> I? sold? him my? extra classic 8? with the plexi covers on it... sn 200? series....? we? kept? sn #18 > > Side question: What process is turning non-blanking spaces into ISO-8859-1 > circumflex-A for you? > > I see '?' all throughout your emails. > > - John From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 21:36:06 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 22:36:06 -0500 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <7583D03C-D460-444F-9334-1674B16045D1@shaw.ca> <05C39765-BF3B-4247-88B7-3604079301B9@shaw.ca> <911F24A846E848E7827D4B8EAB655CAA@310e2> Message-ID: <68FBEC439A8445D6818E370C5D2A9D9E@310e2> Al, If you're looking for a service manual for that HP2624 you might have a look at the manual for the MAI 4309; it's the same board with a few minor differences (memory) and different firmware. And of course it's on bitsavers ;-) mike From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Nov 21 22:22:45 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 23:22:45 -0500 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16739a7e304-1ec3-2630@webjas-vac024.srv.aolmail.net> not much adjustments... may be easier if you just bypass my messages? Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 Fred Cisin wrote: On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > wrong not everybody sees it this is the only list serve problems... I > suppose modern email programs either do not see or know what to do with > the characters... please consider using the delete key and not reading > things frI'm me if it bothers,you > thanks ed# That is a very good hypothesis. "Modern" (bordering on profanity in this list) email programs might insert characters that we are not intended to notice in support of "features" (also bordering on profanity). When they encounter those special characters, they know to activate that "feature", and suppress their display. But email progams from "LAST MONTH" (prior to the "10 year rule"?) do NOT recognize, respect, nor understand those "modern" "control" characters. ("Modern" companies, such as Microsoft, Apple, AOL, etc. deprecate the use of any software or hardware that is not "current") Email seems to be being handled like word processor file formats - what happens when you try to load a document from a current version prograam into a copy of a previous version of the program? You would never know there was an issue if everybody that you associate is using the same current programs. Q: is line wrap ON or OFF in the program? Q: is "format: flowed" ON or OFF? Either/both might insert "non-breaking spaces". These do not seem to be adequately documented in this context - (differentiation between "bug" and "feature"). From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 22 05:42:05 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 03:42:05 -0800 Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals In-Reply-To: <68FBEC439A8445D6818E370C5D2A9D9E@310e2> References: <58a08036-b709-989c-4131-263e86dc75dc@bitsavers.org> <7583D03C-D460-444F-9334-1674B16045D1@shaw.ca> <05C39765-BF3B-4247-88B7-3604079301B9@shaw.ca> <911F24A846E848E7827D4B8EAB655CAA@310e2> <68FBEC439A8445D6818E370C5D2A9D9E@310e2> Message-ID: <793bf6a5-0865-cb66-6ca8-d41bd895eb63@bitsavers.org> On 11/21/18 7:36 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > Al, > > If you're looking for a service manual for that HP2624 you might have a look at the manual for the MAI 4309; it's the same board with a few minor differences (memory) and different firmware. > > And of course it's on bitsavers ;-) > > mike > thanks! It also appears there is some overlap between Morrow and Zenith terminals. I took apart my MD-3P (the outer shell is a mechanical nightmare) and when I looked at the MDT-60 service manual the schematic is the same as a Zenith model but the board in the terminal is a Morrow design. The MAI terminal manual that was just sent to me was made by Direct, need to get my copies of the Direct manuals scanned. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Nov 22 06:21:57 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 12:21:57 +0000 (WET) Subject: Missing FORRTL In-Reply-To: <0b43c747-66f6-8a37-c3f9-9398bb445ed0@comcast.net> References: <01QZV6PG73US001U2V@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01QZY3DTXJ02001VCL@beyondthepale.ie> > > Yes, there is a SYS$SHARE:DEC$FORRTL.EXE in SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB], which > was put there when the Fortran compiler was installed.? I can compile, > link and run ordinary Fortran programs.?? There should have been a SYS$SHARE:DEC$FORRTL.EXE present from when the operating system was installed but installing the FORTRAN compiler may have updated it. > However, I forced the > installation of CXML and tried to compile one of the examples and that > failed - couldn't find INCLUDE 'CXMLDEF.FOR'. > This is a missing source include file and is not related to the run time library. It is needed at compile time, not at run time. I suspect it is normally found in what VMS calls a text library file, probably matching SYS$SHARE:*DEF.TLB - include files used by the FORTRAN compiler are to be found in SYS$SHARE:FORSYSDEF.TLB for example. (These are binary files - you can use LIBRARY /LIST to list their contents or LIBRARY /EXTRACT to examine a particular member.) On the other hand, there may not be a text library file involved and CXML may be expecting to find a plain text file called CXMLDEF.FOR - it might be worth looking for this in and around SYS$EXAMPLES: > > I found this on the net and shows CXML installed in a different version > of OpenVMS - > > The system is a Digital Personal Workstation 500au: > > ? $ product show product * > ? ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------ > > > ? PRODUCT???????????????????????????? KIT TYPE??? STATE > ? ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------ > ? DEC AXPVMS CXML V3.59-1???????????? Full LP???? Installed > ? DEC AXPVMS DECNET_PHASE_IV V7.2-1?? Full LP???? Installed > ? DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF V1.2-5?????????? Full LP???? Installed > ? DEC AXPVMS FORRTL V7.3-1??????????? Full LP???? Installed > ? DEC AXPVMS FORTRAN V7.3-1?????????? Full LP???? Installed > ? DEC AXPVMS NS_NAV_EXPORT V3.3?????? Full LP???? Installed > ? DEC AXPVMS OPENVMS V7.2-1?????????? Platform??? Installed > ? DEC AXPVMS TCPIP V5.0-10??????????? Full LP???? Installed > ? DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.2-1?????????????? Oper System Installed > ? ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------ > ? 9 items found > > and what I see is that there is a FORTRAN, FORRTL and CXML product > installed.? I can't seem to find anything about the FORRTL product. > When a relatively new compiler is installed on an older operating system (V7.2-1 in this case), it is sometimes necessary to update the run time library in order to take advantage of some of the new features provided by the compiler. I can't recall if this has to be done separately or if it happens automatically (if appropriate) when the compiler is installed. I think the latter. A newer run time library than the one that comes with VMS 8.4 may not be available. If you installed FORTRAN first and then CXML, it may be worth trying the other way around in case CXML is getting confused by an updated run time library provided by the FORTRAN install. Unfortunately, I can't see an easy way to get back where you started from except by starting with a fresh install of the operating system. Anyway, if the CXML install allowed you to continue even though it complained about the run time library, I think there will be few consequences. I imagine things will just work once you solve the missing include file problem. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 22 10:21:33 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 08:21:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a@webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a@webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > who? knows?? ?what? mail program? are? you using that? ?does that? > > > In a message dated 11/21/2018 1:25:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > ? > At 02:03 PM 11/21/2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >> I? sold? him my? extra classic 8? with the plexi covers on it... sn 200? series....? we? kept? sn #18 > > Side question: What process is turning non-blanking spaces into ISO-8859-1 > circumflex-A for you? > > I see '?' all throughout your emails. > It's not his email client that's the problem, it's yours. It constantly inserts weird characters between words. I see the same problem in Alpine, and I've never seen the issue from any other sender. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From w2hx at w2hx.com Thu Nov 22 10:41:20 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 16:41:20 +0000 Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: References: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> Message-ID: The guru of ASR33s is WAYNE KB1FDW, teletypeparts at comcast.net sales, repairs, advice. 73 Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 6:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Teletype cheap It lives!! Retrieved the EPay ASR33 over the weekend.?? Unit described as "As is - for parts" turned out to be almost completely intact school surplus unit stored inside somewhere in Orange county since removed from service in mid 80s (professionally maintained w service tag dated 1984).? Realized as soon as I saw it up close that it was in far better shape than expected. Plastic parts have three minor breaks not immediately visible and probably reparable Case parts missing:? chad box, tape punch cover; copy tray Internally, seems completely intact except for 2 of the 4 gold pins in the tape reader along with their springs Keyboard cover has 2 plastic pins broken but unit stays in place and keys move correctly except for the space bar which doesn't return when pressed.? Keys are worn but in fairly good shape although two are cracked. Weird comms setup.? Although from my reading it sounds as there was no standard, this one doesn't match anything I've found in the hobbyist lit so far:? Neither plug 2 nor the terminal strip are in use at all (terminal strip only has pos 1 and 2 in use for power).? Unit has two external cables that appear original since they both have the same thread style cable ties in use in the internal wire harness. One cable ends in a molex plug and the other in a small? "centronics" style plug.? Wires for the centronics style connector terminate in plug 1 and 3.? Another (related?) anomaly:? the large resistor associated with the current loop setup isn't present. So, inspected everything, as recommended here, replaced the print hammer pad, checked caps and all fuses.? Motor turned freely by hand when gently pushed. Plugged it in, turned it on to local and it fired right up.? All keyboard functions appear to work. Questions: Anyone recognize the cabling setup? Are the missing gold colored double pins in the tape reader replaceable? What sort of adhesive works for cracks in the cover under the hood photos here for the curious: https://photos.app.goo.gl/endqTANG3mZgWG3q8 Steve On 10/26/2018 7:39 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > OK, got it.? Will be my first one. Now, how does one transport the > thing??? Does it easily come off the pedestal??? Can it be laid on > it's back?? Anything need to be secured before it gets moved? > > Steve > > n 10/24/2018 6:56 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-Machine-Model-3320-3WA-Teletypewriter-AS-IS-FOR-PARTS-local-pick-up/142981290439?hash=item214a5959c7:g:UXoAAOSwmXJbylEN:rk:6:pf:1&frcectupt=true >> >> >> b >> > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 22 10:45:01 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 08:45:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <16739a7e304-1ec3-2630@webjas-vac024.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16739a7e304-1ec3-2630@webjas-vac024.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > not much adjustments... may be easier if you just bypass my messages? > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > Maybe it's because many of us don't use a point-and-drool interface that would give the user the chance to skip the message before being forced to read it. Look, I get that you've decided that hundreds of people are wrong and it's not your fault. How about we work on getting you to stop top posting instead? ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 10:58:24 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 11:58:24 -0500 Subject: George Keremedjiev References: <16739a7e304-1ec3-2630@webjas-vac024.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <0D8E392CB79E4A8186B45A27CE46BE26@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "geneb via cctalk" To: "ED SHARPE" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 11:45 AM Subject: Re: George Keremedjiev > On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >> not much adjustments... may be easier if you just bypass my messages? >> >> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail >> > Maybe it's because many of us don't use a point-and-drool interface that > would give the user the chance to skip the message before being forced to > read it. > > Look, I get that you've decided that hundreds of people are wrong and it's > not your fault. How about we work on getting you to stop top posting > instead? ;) > > g. > > ---- And proofreading a bit before pressing 'send'... From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Nov 22 11:34:13 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 12:34:13 -0500 Subject: HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!!! Message-ID: <1673c7c8949-1ec0-2a40@webjas-vac065.srv.aolmail.net> HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!!! 2018! Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From jim at photojim.ca Thu Nov 22 13:38:14 2018 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 13:38:14 -0600 Subject: HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!!! In-Reply-To: <1673c7c8949-1ec0-2a40@webjas-vac065.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1673c7c8949-1ec0-2a40@webjas-vac065.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <012901d4829a$eaf8dee0$c0ea9ca0$@photojim.ca> And happy Thursday to all the non-Americans :) (Stuck at work today :( :) ) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ED SHARPE via cctalk Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 11:34 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!!! HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!!! 2018! Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From shumaker at att.net Thu Nov 22 13:39:28 2018 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 11:39:28 -0800 Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: References: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the source!? I shall inquire... Steve On 11/22/2018 8:41 AM, W2HX wrote: > The guru of ASR33s is WAYNE KB1FDW, teletypeparts at comcast.net sales, repairs, advice. > > > 73 Eugene W2HX > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 6:16 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Teletype cheap > > It lives!! > > Retrieved the EPay ASR33 over the weekend.?? Unit described as "As is - > for parts" turned out to be almost completely intact school surplus unit > stored inside somewhere in Orange county since removed from service in > mid 80s (professionally maintained w service tag dated 1984).? Realized > as soon as I saw it up close that it was in far better shape than expected. > > Plastic parts have three minor breaks not immediately visible and > probably reparable > Case parts missing:? chad box, tape punch cover; copy tray > Internally, seems completely intact except for 2 of the 4 gold pins in > the tape reader along with their springs > Keyboard cover has 2 plastic pins broken but unit stays in place and > keys move correctly except for the space bar which doesn't return when > pressed.? Keys are worn but in fairly good shape although two are cracked. > > Weird comms setup.? Although from my reading it sounds as there was no > standard, this one doesn't match anything I've found in the hobbyist lit > so far:? Neither plug 2 nor the terminal strip are in use at all > (terminal strip only has pos 1 and 2 in use for power).? Unit has two > external cables that appear original since they both have the same > thread style cable ties in use in the internal wire harness. One cable > ends in a molex plug and the other in a small? "centronics" style plug. > Wires for the centronics style connector terminate in plug 1 and 3. > Another (related?) anomaly:? the large resistor associated with the > current loop setup isn't present. > > So, inspected everything, as recommended here, replaced the print hammer > pad, checked caps and all fuses.? Motor turned freely by hand when > gently pushed. Plugged it in, turned it on to local and it fired right > up.? All keyboard functions appear to work. > > Questions: > Anyone recognize the cabling setup? > Are the missing gold colored double pins in the tape reader replaceable? > What sort of adhesive works for cracks in the cover > > under the hood photos here for the curious: > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/endqTANG3mZgWG3q8 > > > Steve > > On 10/26/2018 7:39 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: >> OK, got it.? Will be my first one. Now, how does one transport the >> thing??? Does it easily come off the pedestal??? Can it be laid on >> it's back?? Anything need to be secured before it gets moved? >> >> Steve >> >> n 10/24/2018 6:56 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-Machine-Model-3320-3WA-Teletypewriter-AS-IS-FOR-PARTS-local-pick-up/142981290439?hash=item214a5959c7:g:UXoAAOSwmXJbylEN:rk:6:pf:1&frcectupt=true >>> >>> >>> b >>> >> From mcquiggi at me.com Thu Nov 22 13:40:11 2018 From: mcquiggi at me.com (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 11:40:11 -0800 Subject: HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!!! In-Reply-To: <012901d4829a$eaf8dee0$c0ea9ca0$@photojim.ca> References: <1673c7c8949-1ec0-2a40@webjas-vac065.srv.aolmail.net> <012901d4829a$eaf8dee0$c0ea9ca0$@photojim.ca> Message-ID: Yup that?s me, stuck working! > On Nov 22, 2018, at 11:38 AM, Jim MacKenzie via cctalk wrote: > > And happy Thursday to all the non-Americans :) (Stuck at work today :( :) ) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ED SHARPE via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 11:34 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!!! > > HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!!! 2018! > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Thu Nov 22 16:23:30 2018 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 17:23:30 -0500 Subject: Missing FORRTL In-Reply-To: <01QZY3DTXJ02001VCL@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01QZV6PG73US001U2V@beyondthepale.ie> <01QZY3DTXJ02001VCL@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <41a8f642-3455-6e72-58d7-f7d3412f8d86@comcast.net> On 11/22/2018 7:21 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> >> Yes, there is a SYS$SHARE:DEC$FORRTL.EXE in SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB], >> which was put there when the Fortran compiler was installed.? I can >> compile, link and run ordinary Fortran programs. > > There should have been a SYS$SHARE:DEC$FORRTL.EXE present from when the > operating system was installed but installing the FORTRAN compiler may > have updated it. >> However, I forced the installation of CXML and tried to compile one >> of the examples and that failed - couldn't find INCLUDE 'CXMLDEF.FOR'. >> > > This is a missing source include file and is not related to the run time > library.? It is needed at compile time, not at run time.? I suspect it is > normally found in what VMS calls a text library file, probably matching > SYS$SHARE:*DEF.TLB - include files used by the FORTRAN compiler are to be > found in SYS$SHARE:FORSYSDEF.TLB for example.? (These are binary files > - you > can use LIBRARY /LIST to list their contents or LIBRARY /EXTRACT to > examine > a particular member.) On the other hand, there may not be a text library > file involved and CXML may be expecting to find a plain text file called > CXMLDEF.FOR - it might be worth looking for this in and around > SYS$EXAMPLES: > >> >> I found this on the net and shows CXML installed in a different >> version of OpenVMS - >> >> The system is a Digital Personal Workstation 500au: >> >> ?? $ product show product * >> ?? ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------ >> >> >> ?? PRODUCT???????????????????????????? KIT TYPE??? STATE >> ?? ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------ >> ?? DEC AXPVMS CXML V3.59-1???????????? Full LP???? Installed >> ?? DEC AXPVMS DECNET_PHASE_IV V7.2-1?? Full LP???? Installed >> ?? DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF V1.2-5?????????? Full LP???? Installed >> ?? DEC AXPVMS FORRTL V7.3-1??????????? Full LP???? Installed >> ?? DEC AXPVMS FORTRAN V7.3-1?????????? Full LP???? Installed >> ?? DEC AXPVMS NS_NAV_EXPORT V3.3?????? Full LP???? Installed >> ?? DEC AXPVMS OPENVMS V7.2-1?????????? Platform??? Installed >> ?? DEC AXPVMS TCPIP V5.0-10??????????? Full LP???? Installed >> ?? DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.2-1?????????????? Oper System Installed >> ?? ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------ >> ?? 9 items found >> >> and what I see is that there is a FORTRAN, FORRTL and CXML product >> installed.? I can't seem to find anything about the FORRTL product. >> > > When a relatively new compiler is installed on an older operating > system (V7.2-1 > in this case), it is sometimes necessary to update the run time > library in > order to take advantage of some of the new features provided by the > compiler. > I can't recall if this has to be done separately or if it happens > automatically > (if appropriate) when the compiler is installed.? I think the latter. > > A newer run time library than the one that comes with VMS 8.4 may not be > available. > > If you installed FORTRAN first and then CXML, it may be worth trying > the other > way around in case CXML is getting confused by an updated run time > library > provided by the FORTRAN install.? Unfortunately, I can't see an easy > way to > get back where you started from except by starting with a fresh > install of > the operating system. > > Anyway, if the CXML install allowed you to continue even though it > complained > about the run time library, I think there will be few consequences.? I > imagine > things will just work once you solve the missing include file problem. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. I was able to get the Fortran and C examples in SYS$COMMON:[SYSHLP.EXAMPLES.CXML] to compile and run. I was not able to be the C++ example to compile, but I'm more interested in Fortran and C so it doesn't bother me. In order to get the Fortran examples to compile, link and run: $@SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]CXML$SET_LIB VAX? (IEEE is another option, but didn't run on my ALPHA) $FORTRAN/INCLUDE=SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB] file.for? (this picks up the missing CXMLDEF.FOR Include) $ link file.obj? (didn't need to do anything special here, just ordinary link) $ r file? ( this works ) I think I'll try installing CXML first, then Fortran and see what happens.? I saw someone who recommended installing CXX before CC on ALpha, so there may be a hidden correct order. Doug From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Thu Nov 22 16:59:29 2018 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 22:59:29 +0000 Subject: George Keremedjiev Message-ID: >Message: 10 >Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:17:27 -0500 >From: ED SHARPE >To: jfoust at threedee.com, cctalk at classiccmp.org, cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: George Keremedjiev >Message-ID: <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a at webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > >who? knows?? ?what? mail program? are? you using that? ?does that? > > >In a message dated 11/21/2018 1:25:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > >? >At 02:03 PM 11/21/2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >>I? sold? him my? extra classic 8? with the plexi covers on it... sn 200? series....? we? kept? sn #18 > >Side question: What process is turning non-blanking spaces into ISO-8859-1 >circumflex-A for you? > >I see '?' all throughout your emails. > >- John I get CCTalk in digest form and see the "?" in Ed's posts. Almost all (but strangely not all) of his posts are like that. I might occasionally see a strange extra character in someone else's post, but only rarely and then they usually are some non-English diacritical mark. BTW, we went through this about 6 months ago. Someone pointed out the strange characters in Ed's posts. No change resulted from that, however, and I doubt this thread will cause any change. Bob From cctalk at emailtoilet.com Thu Nov 22 18:48:54 2018 From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com (cctalk at emailtoilet.com) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 16:48:54 -0800 Subject: What is this? Message-ID: <000301d482c6$4f5541f0$edffc5d0$@emailtoilet.com> Don't think it is IBM. Apparently high temp ICs due to the heat sink housing. No idea what it is. http://www.myimagecollection/part From guykd at optusnet.com.au Thu Nov 22 18:55:18 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 11:55:18 +1100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 10:33 PM 21/11/2018 -0500, ED SHARPE wrote: >if I type an extra space I am sure every one sees it. but the chars not everyone sees them. >what I do figure us the older email programs are not accepting of all charter sets? ( dunno if I am using the right term) > >Sent from AOL Mobile Mail Ah ha! Mystery explained. I'm another who sees funny characters where Ed's mails contain "c2 a0". This is the UTF-8 encoding of a 'no-break space' character, which is NOT in the original ASCII set. See https://apps.timwhitlock.info/unicode/inspect/hex/c2/a0 I see them because I'm using an old email client - Eudora 3 (1997.) I stick with this specifically _because_ it doesn't understand UTF-8 or any other non-ASCII coding, especially in the header, and hence simply ignores any executables in the headers or email body. Which makes it totally virus proof, unlike Microsoft's intentionally open-backdoor junk like Outlook. And most other email 'modern wonders.' Eudora barely even understands html in emails, and I'm fine with that. Also I have it configured to dust-bin any incomimg mail containing UTF-8 chars in the Subject header. Avoids a lot of time-wasting. Anyway, I was wondering how Ed's emails (and sometimes others elsewhere) acquired that odd corruption. Answer: Ed's email util (AOL Mobile Mail, and probably various other 'content enhanced' email clients) interpret the user typing space twice in succession, as meaning "I really, really want there to be a space here, no matter what." So it inserts a 'no-break space' unicode character, which of course requires a 2-byte UTF-8 encoding. Then adds a plain ASCII space 0x20 just to be sure. Personally I find it more interesting than annoying. Just another example of the gradual chaotic devolution of ASCII, into a Babel of incompatible encodings. Not that ASCII was all that great in the first place. It's also interesting that even on cctalk, where you'd think everyone would be aware of the differences between ASCII and later 'extensions', low level coding schemes, and the desirability of sticking to common standards, some are not. Takeaway: Ed, one space is enough. I don't know how you got the idea people might miss seeing a single space, and so you need to type two or more. But it isn't so. The normal convention in plain text is one space character between each word. And since plain ASCII is hard-formatted, extra spaces are NOT ignored and make for wider spacing between words. Which looks very odd, even if your mail utility didn't try to do something 'special' with your unusual user input. Btw, I changed the subject line, because this is a wider topic. I've been meaning to start a conversation about the original evolution of ASCII, and various extensions. Related to a side project of mine. But first, I'm having a problem with some portion of cctalk posts going missing, ie I don't receive all messages. The ratio seems to vary day to day. Sometimes no obvious missing, sometimes a lot. Still don't know why, or how to fix this. Any suggestions? Guy >On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 Fred Cisin wrote: >Ed, >It is YOUR mail program that is doing the extraneous insertions, and >then not showing them to you when you view your own messages. > >ALL of us see either extraneous characters, or extraneous spaces in >everything that you send! >I use PINE in a shell account, and they show up as a whole bunch of >inappropriate spaces. > >Seriously, YOUR mail program is inserting extraneous stuff. >Everybody? but you sees it. > >> who?? knows??? ??what?? mail program?? are?? you using that?? ??does that? >It is YOUR mail program that is "doing that"!! > > >On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >> who?? knows??? ??what?? mail program?? are?? you using that?? ??does that? >> >> >> In a message dated 11/21/2018 1:25:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> >> ?? >> At 02:03 PM 11/21/2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I?? sold?? him my?? extra classic 8?? with the plexi covers on it... sn 200?? series....?? we?? kept?? sn #18 >> >> Side question: What process is turning non-blanking spaces into ISO-8859-1 >> circumflex-A for you? >> >> I see '??' all throughout your emails. >> >> - John > > From jstefanikcctalk at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 00:28:18 2018 From: jstefanikcctalk at gmail.com (Jim Stefanik) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 00:28:18 -0600 Subject: What is this? In-Reply-To: <000301d482c6$4f5541f0$edffc5d0$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: I might acutally be IBM made. The "1P1288" part number fits the numbering scheme they used. I've seen one of these before, but I don't remember where, or what it was for... I'm curious as to what it actually is myself now though... ________________________________ From: Donald via cctalk Sent: Thursday, 22 November 2018 18:48 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: What is this? Don't think it is IBM.? Apparently high temp ICs due to the heat sink housing. No idea what it is. http://www.myimagecollection/part From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Nov 23 04:08:54 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 11:08:54 +0100 (CET) Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2018, Robert Feldman wrote: > BTW, we went through this about 6 months ago. Someone pointed out the > strange characters in Ed's posts. No change resulted from that, however, > and I doubt this thread will cause any change. Yup, Ed is resistant to any form of advice. He could just install a real mail client on his mobile phone instead of using the crappy AOL client. ;-) Christian From lproven at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 05:12:32 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 12:12:32 +0100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 at 01:55, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > Also I have it configured to > dust-bin any incomimg mail containing UTF-8 chars in the Subject header. Avoids a lot of time-wasting. That's English-language cultural snobbery. I'm a native Anglophone but I live in a non-English speaking country, Czechia. For example, right now, I am in my office in K?i??kova. I can't type that name correctly without Unicode characters, because the ANSI character set doesn't contain enough letters for Czech. It can cope with some Western European letters needed for Spanish, French etc., but not even enough for the Norwegian letter ``?''. So I can type the name of the district of Prague I'm in -- Karl?n -- and you'll probably see that, but the street name, I am guessing not. "Krizikova" is usually close enough but it's not correct. Those letters are important. E.g. "s?rov?" means cheesy, but "syrov?" means raw. That's a significant difference. It matters to me and I'm not even Czech and don't speak it particularly well... So if you tried to mail me something at work -- the address I normally use, for instance for the Alphasmart Dana Wireless on the way to to me from Baltimore right now -- and you get a reply saying "package for [streetname] undeliverable" in the subject -- you'd just reject it. That's basically discriminating against people who don't speak your language, and in my book, that's not OK. > Takeaway: Ed, one space is enough. Look, we haven't even been able to get him to quote correctly, so I suspect changing his typing habits is right out! -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 05:13:35 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 12:13:35 +0100 Subject: What is this? In-Reply-To: <000301d482c6$4f5541f0$edffc5d0$@emailtoilet.com> References: <000301d482c6$4f5541f0$edffc5d0$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 at 01:49, Donald via cctalk wrote: > > Don't think it is IBM. Apparently high temp ICs due to the heat sink > housing. No idea what it is. > > http://www.myimagecollection/part No idea, because that's not a valid URL -- it has no TLD -- and you can't send attachments to the list. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Nov 23 06:52:10 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 13:52:10 +0100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20181123125210.GA32473@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 12:12:32PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 at 01:55, Guy Dunphy via cctalk > wrote: [...] >> Also I have it configured to dust-bin any incomimg mail containing UTF-8 >> chars in the Subject header. Avoids a lot of time-wasting. > That's English-language cultural snobbery. I'm a native Anglophone but I live > in a non-English speaking country, Czechia. Worse than that, it's *American* ignorance and cultural snobbery which also affects various English-speaking countries. The pound sign is not in US-ASCII, and the euro sign is not in ISO-8859-1, for example. Amusingly, peering through my inbox in which I have mail in both Dutch and English, the only one with a UTF-8 subject line is in English. It was probably composed on a Windows box which "helpfully" turned a hyphen into an en-dash. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Nov 23 09:47:55 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 10:47:55 -0500 Subject: What is this? In-Reply-To: References: <000301d482c6$4f5541f0$edffc5d0$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 23, 2018, at 6:13 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 at 01:49, Donald via cctalk wrote: >> >> Don't think it is IBM. Apparently high temp ICs due to the heat sink >> housing. No idea what it is. >> >> http://www.myimagecollection/part > > No idea, because that's not a valid URL -- it has no TLD -- and you > can't send attachments to the list. Stick a .com in there and it works. I don't think it's anything high temperature; the ICs look like plain plastic cased commercial temperature range parts. Why they are packaged like that is a puzzle. paul From pat at vax11.net Fri Nov 23 09:52:12 2018 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 10:52:12 -0500 Subject: What is this? In-Reply-To: References: <000301d482c6$4f5541f0$edffc5d0$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: It looks like a memory module out of an IBM 3174 Establishment Controller. Patrick Finnegan On Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 10:48 Paul Koning via cctalk > > > On Nov 23, 2018, at 6:13 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 at 01:49, Donald via cctalk > wrote: > >> > >> Don't think it is IBM. Apparently high temp ICs due to the heat sink > >> housing. No idea what it is. > >> > >> http://www.myimagecollection/part > > > > No idea, because that's not a valid URL -- it has no TLD -- and you > > can't send attachments to the list. > > Stick a .com in there and it works. > > I don't think it's anything high temperature; the ICs look like plain > plastic cased commercial temperature range parts. Why they are packaged > like that is a puzzle. > > paul > > > From kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com Fri Nov 23 10:28:29 2018 From: kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com (Kevin Anderson) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:28:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: George Keremedjiev References: <955057184.1688633.1542990509510.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <955057184.1688633.1542990509510@mail.yahoo.com> These ? characters often show up for users like me who read via the e-mailed digests. Kevin Anderson From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 10:45:55 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 11:45:55 -0500 Subject: 1968 Hitachi HIDIC 100 Mini Computer Message-ID: Sales Brochure scanned https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=587 Bill From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Nov 23 11:31:23 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 18:31:23 +0100 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <16738ca0d50-1ec6-2425@webjas-vab030.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16738ca0d50-1ec6-2425@webjas-vab030.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <20181123173123.GA13508@tau1.ceti.pl> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 07:20:25PM -0500, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > wrong not everybody sees it this is the only list serve problems... > I suppose modern email programs either do not see or know what to do > with the characters... please consider using the delete key and not > reading things frI'm me if it bothers,you > thanks ed# > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail To me, the problem is not with your emails (or anybody else's from this list), but the slow invasion performed by offending software. Since you pressed space once, it should be entered as single space, 0x20 in ASCII. If you pressed space twice, it should be entered into email written by you as two 0x20 bytes, and this is what should show on my side. My software receives some extra stuff from you, but not in a consistent manner, i.e. some ASCII spaces are prepended with extra two bytes and some not. I was not conscious about it - thought you had some peculiar space pressing manner or text postprocessor (like fmt) made double spaces in order to fit your lines into 130-characters width (because your lines were not folded at 79 or anywhere close). (In other words, it looks like everybody gets those extra bytes, only some programs choose to not show them, which - for me - is another problem and should be examined in due time). If what you press and what is being sent out to your recipients differs, then this is a problem, with potential security implications (as I learn with some horror, just anything in modern computer can turn against the owner, if he could be called owner at all). A software that mangles your input is not a friend. It should be terminated. Just MHO. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Nov 23 11:54:03 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 18:54:03 +0100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20181123175403.GB13508@tau1.ceti.pl> On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 11:55:18AM +1100, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: [...] > > I see them because I'm using an old email client - Eudora 3 (1997.) > I stick with this specifically _because_ it doesn't understand UTF-8 > or any other non-ASCII coding, especially in the header, and hence > simply ignores any executables in the headers or email body. Which > makes it totally virus proof, unlike Microsoft's intentionally Totally say totally. > open-backdoor junk like Outlook. And most other email 'modern > wonders.' Eudora barely even understands html in emails, and I'm > fine with that. Also I have it configured to dust-bin any incomimg > mail containing UTF-8 chars in the Subject header. Avoids a lot of > time-wasting. [...] > > But first, I'm having a problem with some portion of cctalk posts > going missing, ie I don't receive all messages. The ratio seems to > vary day to day. Sometimes no obvious missing, sometimes a lot. > Still don't know why, or how to fix this. Any suggestions? Turn off trashing mails with Unicode in Subject and see if this solves a problem? -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From lproven at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 12:01:17 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 19:01:17 +0100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <20181123175403.GB13508@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181123175403.GB13508@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 at 18:54, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > > Turn off trashing mails with Unicode in Subject and see if this solves > a problem? *Loud laughter in the office* Well _played_, sir! -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 12:27:10 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 12:27:10 -0600 Subject: 1968 Hitachi HIDIC 100 Mini Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 10:46 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Sales Brochure scanned > https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=587 Please do scan the whole thing when you are able. I can OCR the Japanese text (or Acrobat can, at least...I'll have no idea what it says :) j From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Nov 23 12:27:25 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 19:27:25 +0100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181123175403.GB13508@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20181123182725.GC13508@tau1.ceti.pl> On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 07:01:17PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 at 18:54, Tomasz Rola via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Turn off trashing mails with Unicode in Subject and see if this solves > > a problem? > > *Loud laughter in the office* > > Well _played_, sir! Well, that was low hanging fruit. But if he indeed turns it off and the problem is not gone, that will be a bit of puzzle. Will require some way to compare mailboxes in search of pattern in missing emails... Which may or may not be obvious... which will lead to more puzzles... oy maybe I should have stayed muted and let others do the job... -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 12:43:09 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 13:43:09 -0500 Subject: 1968 Hitachi HIDIC 100 Mini Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did, link at bottom On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 1:27 PM Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 10:46 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Sales Brochure scanned > > https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=587 > > Please do scan the whole thing when you are able. I can OCR the > Japanese text (or Acrobat can, at least...I'll have no idea what it > says :) > > j > From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 13:03:09 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 13:03:09 -0600 Subject: 1968 Hitachi HIDIC 100 Mini Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 12:43 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > > I did, link at bottom Got it. OCR'd and posted here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/Hitachi The text on the title page goog-lates to "Thunder calculator for eye control", which is certainly clear to me... j From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Nov 23 13:37:02 2018 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 19:37:02 +0000 Subject: 1968 Hitachi HIDIC 100 Mini Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 23/11/2018 19:03, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 12:43 PM Bill Degnan wrote: >> I did, link at bottom > Got it. OCR'd and posted here: > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/Hitachi > > The text on the title page goog-lates to "Thunder calculator for eye > control", which is certainly clear to me... > > j > ?? = Hitachi ?? - control ? - use ?? - electronic (the OCR seems to have picked the wrong kanji here, either that or I have :-)) ??? - calculator/computer So a Hitachi computer that provides/implements electronic control. I love google translate sometimes :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From guykd at optusnet.com.au Fri Nov 23 15:23:20 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 08:23:20 +1100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <20181123175403.GB13508@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181124082320.010cd280@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 06:54 PM 23/11/2018 +0100, you wrote: >On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 11:55:18AM +1100, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: >[...] >> >> I see them because I'm using an old email client - Eudora 3 (1997.) >> I stick with this specifically _because_ it doesn't understand UTF-8 >> or any other non-ASCII coding, especially in the header, and hence >> simply ignores any executables in the headers or email body. Which >> makes it totally virus proof, unlike Microsoft's intentionally > >Totally say totally. Except it turns out some feel that rejecting UTF-8 is culturally insensitive. I agree they have a point. But for my practical purposes, all the 'UTF-8 in header' messages that end up in my trash folder are all, always, spam. I do check. (And now someone's going to start posting cctalk messages with UTF-8 in Subject, just watch.) >> open-backdoor junk like Outlook. And most other email 'modern >> wonders.' Eudora barely even understands html in emails, and I'm >> fine with that. Also I have it configured to dust-bin any incomimg >> mail containing UTF-8 chars in the Subject header. Avoids a lot of >> time-wasting. >[...] >> >> But first, I'm having a problem with some portion of cctalk posts >> going missing, ie I don't receive all messages. The ratio seems to >> vary day to day. Sometimes no obvious missing, sometimes a lot. >> Still don't know why, or how to fix this. Any suggestions? > >Turn off trashing mails with Unicode in Subject and see if this solves >a problem? Ha, I knew someone would say that. But no, I do check the email trash bin regularly (before emptying it) and so far no cctalk or cctech emails are being diverted to there. My filter for them runs before the UTF-filter (last.) I'm guessing it's an overly picky spam filter somewhere in the network routes into Australia. Guy From guykd at optusnet.com.au Fri Nov 23 15:56:09 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 08:56:09 +1100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181124085609.010e26a8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Resend, just in case that screen-cap image attachment fails. It is also here: http://everist.org/6F2a/cctalk_rcvd.png >Will require >some way to compare mailboxes in search of pattern in missing >emails... Which may or may not be obvious... which will lead to more >puzzles... oy maybe I should have stayed muted and let others do the >job... Here's one check. See attached screen-cap of cctalk emails. Usually many per day, but only one per day on the 15th & 16th Nov, none at all on the 17th. Did the list actually go silent then? It's possible by random ebb and flow, or maybe everyone was in shock over the awful Paradise fire death toll. Which may be over 1000, unless a lot of people listed as missing do turn up. Guy From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Nov 23 16:44:23 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 23:44:23 +0100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181124085609.010e26a8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181124085609.010e26a8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20181123224423.GD13508@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 08:56:09AM +1100, Guy Dunphy wrote: > Resend, just in case that screen-cap image attachment fails. It is also here: > http://everist.org/6F2a/cctalk_rcvd.png > > >Will require > >some way to compare mailboxes in search of pattern in missing > >emails... Which may or may not be obvious... which will lead to more > >puzzles... oy maybe I should have stayed muted and let others do the > >job... > > Here's one check. See attached screen-cap of cctalk emails. Usually many per > day, but only one per day on the 15th & 16th Nov, none at all on the 17th. > Did the list actually go silent then? It's possible by random ebb and flow, > or maybe everyone was in shock over the awful Paradise fire death toll. > Which may be over 1000, unless a lot of people listed as missing do turn up. Ok, here is a c-pasted fragment from my mutt's index view, limited to messages from cctalk & cctech (which hopefully shows what I expect). The first column is message number in my mailbox, they are not consecutive because in between I got messages from other mailing lists and spammers): 3091 O Nov 13 Jon Elson via c ( 10) Re: Font for DEC indicator panels 3092 Nov 13 systems_glitch ( 60) Re: Looking for optical grid mouse pad 3106 O Nov 13 Jason Howe via ( 22) Re: Swap clarification (Was: bill was my 3166 O Nov 14 systems_glitch ( 40) Re: desoldering (was Re: VAX 9440) 3173 O Nov 14 Bill Degnan via ( 48) Re: desoldering (was Re: VAX 9440) 3192 O Nov 14 Ethan Dicks via ( 28) Re: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuildi 3196 O Nov 14 William Sudbrin ( 15) RE: desoldering (was Re: VAX 9440) 3208 O Nov 14 Eric Smith via ( 17) Re: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuildi 3216 O Nov 14 allison via cct ( 70) Re: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuildi 3227 Nov 14 ED SHARPE via c ( 5) The fundamental building block of modern 3229 O Nov 14 Ethan Dicks via ( 17) Re: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuildi 3277 Nov 14 Kevin Bowling v ( 10) HP 88780B density 3388 O Nov 15 Noel Chiappa vi ( 19) Re: Font for DEC indicator panels 3473 O Nov 16 Andrew Luke Nes ( 75) Re: early ANSI C drafts, pre-1989 standar 3816 O Nov 18 Toby Thain via ( 39) Re: Font for DEC indicator panels 3835 O Nov 18 Jerome H. Fine ( 137) Re: RT-11 DY install 3845 O Nov 18 Michael Brutman ( 40) VCF PNW 2019: Exhibitors needed! 3887 O Nov 19 Patrick Finnega ( 6) IBM 3270 Emulation Adapter (ISA) 3889 O Nov 18 jim stephens vi ( 26) Re: IBM 3270 Emulation Adapter (ISA) 3940 O Nov 19 Jim Brain via c ( 10) IND 3944 O Nov 19 Al Kossow via c ( 20) Re: IBM 3270 Emulation Adapter (ISA) 3953 Nov 19 dwight via ccta ( 9) What is windoes doing? 3954 Nov 19 Ethan via cctal ( 11) Re: What is windoes doing? 3965 Nov 19 geneb via cctal ( 27) Re: What is windoes doing? 3989 Nov 19 Bill Degnan via ( 40) Re: What is windoes doing? 3997 Nov 19 Alan Perry via ( 25) Removing PVA from a CRT 3999 Nov 19 Peter Coghlan v ( 17) Re: What is windoes doing? 4041 Nov 19 Alan Perry via ( 50) Re: Removing PVA from a CRT 4046 O Nov 19 jim stephens vi ( 38) Re: IND 4052 Nov 19 Sean Conner via ( 19) IEFBR14 (was Re: IND) 4053 O Nov 19 Sven Schnelle v ( 17) Re: HP-Apollo 9000/425t RAM 4054 O Nov 19 Dennis Boone vi ( 14) Re: IND 4066 Nov 19 dwight via ccta ( 25) Re: What is windoes doing? 4071 O Nov 19 dwight via ccta ( 45) Re: What is windoes doing? 4083 O Nov 19 Al Kossow via c ( 12) Battery warning in Falco terminals 4088 O Nov 19 Al Kossow via c ( 16) Re: Battery warning in Falco terminals 4095 O Nov 19 Eric Smith via ( 15) Re: IEFBR14 (was Re: IND) 4100 Nov 19 Alan Perry via ( 32) Re: Removing PVA from a CRT 4102 Nov 19 Alan Perry via ( 83) Re: Removing PVA from a CRT 4103 O Nov 19 ben via cctalk ( 19) Re: IEFBR14 (was Re: IND) 4113 O Nov 19 Douglas Taylor ( 11) Missing FORRTL 4118 O Nov 19 Jon Elson via c ( 10) Re: IND 4122 O Nov 19 Kevin McQuiggin ( 16) Re: IND A quick comparison by eye, you seem to miss for example msg no 3277 and 4083: no 3277: -- From: Kevin Bowling via cctalk -- To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" -- Subject: HP 88780B density I have a dual density 88780B. Is it possible to upgrade to quad density by acquiring/swapping boards? Or does someone have an 800bpi 9-track on SCSI Incan borrow or buy? I have a pair of 1984 pdp11/70 UNIX SysV (R0, R1?) tapes that need to be archived. Regards, Kevin ---- and no 4083: -- From: Al Kossow via cctalk -- To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" -- Subject: Battery warning in Falco terminals I've been helping the MAME guys simulate a TS-2624, which is a block mode HP emulating terminal. I had bought this a while ago, and never dumped the firmware. Unfortunately there is a large NiCd battery right in the middle of the board that leaked all over. I've taken some pictures which are up under falco on bitsavers. If anyone has one of these, you want to do battery mitigation ASAP. I'm in the middle of replacing every socket on the board since they were all within range of the leakage corrosion. Also, I suspect the first generation of terminals all have similar hardware with different firmware, so if someone has any of the other models (TS-1, etc.) we could get them simulated pretty easily once the firmware is dumped. ---- I have no idea why they would have got dumped. As far as I can tell, the network guys are busy keeping the wire running, and do not care about spam (i.e. not filtering other people's mails, they are not being paid for this). Did it ever occured to you to be forcibly unsubscribed from mailing list because delivering soft complained emails minded to you could not had been delivered? Such a thing happened to me few times, and then I discovered that particular list's mail server was being located on Iceland (unless I am compressing old memories). Which is rather close to Poland, but still not close enough for touchy touchy software. After checking traceroutes I can see ping times double while jumping from one building in Singapore to another one (maybe not very near, but still, this should be same city). Perhaps there are sometimes problems with contacting your mail provider, and email goes to redundant mail server, from where it is never delivered (for whatever reason). And if they configured it in such a way that redundant one drops old mails as new ones keep coming, without alerting, then this could go on and on - once your missing mail goes off road, it can never go back (for whatever reason) and after spending some time there is silently dropped. Just my wet phantasies about how such things work or might work. It only requires one lousy admin to make it true, or a good one fired and never to be heard from again. Perhaps asking your ISP could give you some clues. Perhaps this is even more horrific (micro black holes? aliens tuning in?) and wetter than my wettest dreams. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From jsw at ieee.org Fri Nov 23 16:44:43 2018 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:44:43 -0600 Subject: Hitachi at 1964 Worlds Fair - Was Re: 1968 Hitachi HIDIC 100 Mini Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7906edaf-8e5b-47e1-5a14-85c8e91860d2@ieee.org> On 11/23/18 10:45 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Sales Brochure scanned > https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=587 > > Bill One of my earliest computer "game" memories, was at the Hitachi exhibit from the 1964 New York Worlds Fair. I remember a small single capsule that had a CRT display that gave a simulation of a rocket launch.? The display showed a single point and the axis on either side were labeled, probably altitude and speed.? I dimly recall the controls as simple buttons. I've only found a few bits of documentation on the web - http://nywf64.com/japan10.shtml where it is listed as an Analog Computer and Capcel.??? When I went back in 1965, the capsule was still there, but non-functional. If anyone has info or recollections about the exhibit I'd be interested and appreciative of in anything you might be willing to share. Jerry From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Nov 23 17:25:01 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 00:25:01 +0100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <20181123224423.GD13508@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <3.0.6.32.20181124085609.010e26a8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181123224423.GD13508@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20181123232501.GE13508@tau1.ceti.pl> On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 11:44:23PM +0100, Tomasz Rola wrote: [...] > Just my wet phantasies about how such things work or might work. It > only requires one lousy admin to make it true, or a good one fired and > never to be heard from again. > > Perhaps asking your ISP could give you some clues. Perhaps this is > even more horrific (micro black holes? aliens tuning in?) and wetter > than my wettest dreams. The huge problem with wet phantasies is that they take over and distract the dreamer. The first thing I should have asked: is this problem limited only to mails from cctalk? If yes, then the most probably culprit would be list's server. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From jstefanikcctalk at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 18:01:44 2018 From: jstefanikcctalk at gmail.com (Jim Stefanik) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 18:01:44 -0600 Subject: What is this? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <27kn34dnipt2e0j8pqi0da9l.1543017578964@email.android.com> That sounds about right. I didn't immediately recognise it as such since the modules for my 3174 are a different style. But yes - that is likely correct. Here's a listing for one on eBay to compare against. https://www.ebay.com/itm/141671996971 ________________________________ From: Patrick Finnegan via cctalk Sent: Friday, 23 November 2018 09:52 To: Paul Koning; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What is this? It looks like a memory module out of an IBM 3174 Establishment Controller. Patrick Finnegan On Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 10:48 Paul Koning via cctalk > > > On Nov 23, 2018, at 6:13 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 at 01:49, Donald via cctalk > wrote: > >> > >> Don't think it is IBM.? Apparently high temp ICs due to the heat sink > >> housing. No idea what it is. > >> > >> http://www.myimagecollection/part > > > > No idea, because that's not a valid URL -- it has no TLD -- and you > > can't send attachments to the list. > > Stick a .com in there and it works. > > I don't think it's anything high temperature; the ICs look like plain > plastic cased commercial temperature range parts.? Why they are packaged > like that is a puzzle. > >???????? paul > > > From dave at 661.org Sat Nov 24 05:34:33 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 11:34:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Bluebox AVR boards available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Oct 2018, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > I've finished my work on designing and debugging a PCB to go with my > AVR-based bluebox program. Read about it and buy one at > https://661.org/proj/bluebox/. > > This project implements a bluebox in C on AVR microcontrollers. This project > is roughly a reimplementation of Don Froulas's PIC-based bluebox, which was > written in PIC assembly. The resulting compiled program is intended to be > loaded into one of the following circuit boards. Currently the code > implements a bluebox, silver box (DTMF dialer with 4th column), redbox, > greenbox, and 2600hz pulse dialer. There are 12 memory locations of 41 > keystrokes each. I have more bluebox boards back in inventory. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 24 10:18:12 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 16:18:12 +0000 Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: References: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> , Message-ID: I wonder if anyone made a 3d printer file for a 33 chad box? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of steve shumaker via cctalk Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 11:39 AM To: W2HX; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Teletype cheap Thanks for the source! I shall inquire... Steve On 11/22/2018 8:41 AM, W2HX wrote: > The guru of ASR33s is WAYNE KB1FDW, teletypeparts at comcast.net sales, repairs, advice. > > > 73 Eugene W2HX > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 6:16 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Teletype cheap > > It lives!! > > Retrieved the EPay ASR33 over the weekend. Unit described as "As is - > for parts" turned out to be almost completely intact school surplus unit > stored inside somewhere in Orange county since removed from service in > mid 80s (professionally maintained w service tag dated 1984). Realized > as soon as I saw it up close that it was in far better shape than expected. > > Plastic parts have three minor breaks not immediately visible and > probably reparable > Case parts missing: chad box, tape punch cover; copy tray > Internally, seems completely intact except for 2 of the 4 gold pins in > the tape reader along with their springs > Keyboard cover has 2 plastic pins broken but unit stays in place and > keys move correctly except for the space bar which doesn't return when > pressed. Keys are worn but in fairly good shape although two are cracked. > > Weird comms setup. Although from my reading it sounds as there was no > standard, this one doesn't match anything I've found in the hobbyist lit > so far: Neither plug 2 nor the terminal strip are in use at all > (terminal strip only has pos 1 and 2 in use for power). Unit has two > external cables that appear original since they both have the same > thread style cable ties in use in the internal wire harness. One cable > ends in a molex plug and the other in a small "centronics" style plug. > Wires for the centronics style connector terminate in plug 1 and 3. > Another (related?) anomaly: the large resistor associated with the > current loop setup isn't present. > > So, inspected everything, as recommended here, replaced the print hammer > pad, checked caps and all fuses. Motor turned freely by hand when > gently pushed. Plugged it in, turned it on to local and it fired right > up. All keyboard functions appear to work. > > Questions: > Anyone recognize the cabling setup? > Are the missing gold colored double pins in the tape reader replaceable? > What sort of adhesive works for cracks in the cover > > under the hood photos here for the curious: > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/endqTANG3mZgWG3q8 > > > Steve > > On 10/26/2018 7:39 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: >> OK, got it. Will be my first one. Now, how does one transport the >> thing? Does it easily come off the pedestal? Can it be laid on >> it's back? Anything need to be secured before it gets moved? >> >> Steve >> >> n 10/24/2018 6:56 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-Machine-Model-3320-3WA-Teletypewriter-AS-IS-FOR-PARTS-local-pick-up/142981290439?hash=item214a5959c7:g:UXoAAOSwmXJbylEN:rk:6:pf:1&frcectupt=true >>> >>> >>> b >>> >> From steven at malikoff.com Sat Nov 24 18:56:31 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 10:56:31 +1000 Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: References: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> , Message-ID: > I wonder if anyone made a 3d printer file for a 33 chad box? > Dwight ...working on it :) Steve. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 19:49:07 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 20:49:07 -0500 Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: References: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> Message-ID: I suggested a shallow box does not have to be so tall. On Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 7:56 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > I wonder if anyone made a 3d printer file for a 33 chad box? > > Dwight > > ...working on it :) > > Steve. > > From steven at malikoff.com Sat Nov 24 20:05:16 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 12:05:16 +1000 Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: References: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> Message-ID: <88f2c4405b22c10a548b9001e003a75f.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Bill said > I suggested a shallow box does not have to be so tall. > > On Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 7:56 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> >> > I wonder if anyone made a 3d printer file for a 33 chad box? >> > Dwight >> >> ...working on it :) Shouldn't be any problem. The box as it stands jussssssst fits in a 200x200x200 3D printer build volume, which is a common size. A shorter box would be an option, with the same top flanges. These are the most "critical" bits on the box, as they are not level with eachother. I almost have to hold my nose as I measure the thing, I think it's made of butyl plastic and has the same 'stinky screwdriver' smell (but not as pungent as my dad's IBM CE screwdriver set from the 50s/60s) that was discussed a few months ago. Steve. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 24 20:14:04 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 18:14:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: <88f2c4405b22c10a548b9001e003a75f.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> <88f2c4405b22c10a548b9001e003a75f.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: >>>> I wonder if anyone made a 3d printer file for a 33 chad box? >>> ...working on it :) On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Shouldn't be any problem. The box as it stands jussssssst fits in a 200x200x200 3D printer build > volume, which is a common size. A shorter box would be an option, with the same top flanges. These > are the most "critical" bits on the box, as they are not level with eachother. > > I almost have to hold my nose as I measure the thing, I think it's made of butyl plastic and has > the same 'stinky screwdriver' smell (but not as pungent as my dad's IBM CE screwdriver set from > the 50s/60s) that was discussed a few months ago. But, can you reproduce that smell? An emulator might be capable of the same output, . . . but it just doesn't SMELL the same. When I saw the 1401 at CHM, it didn't have the faint burnt oil smell that I had remembered. It was much better maintained. From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Nov 24 20:42:10 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 20:42:10 -0600 Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: References: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> Message-ID: <20181125025130.E017A27432@mx1.ezwind.net> At 07:49 PM 11/24/2018, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >I suggested a shallow box does not have to be so tall. > >On Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 7:56 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < >cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> >> > I wonder if anyone made a 3d printer file for a 33 chad box? >> > Dwight >> >> ...working on it :) I believe John Toebes was talking about 3D printing a chad box on the Greenkeys list a month or so ago. - John From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Nov 25 00:06:15 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 22:06:15 -0800 Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: References: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> <88f2c4405b22c10a548b9001e003a75f.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On 11/24/2018 6:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > But, can you reproduce that smell? > An emulator might be capable of the same output, . . . but it just > doesn't SMELL the same. The sweet smell of 3 in one and WD40.? Slightly hot. From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Wed Nov 14 01:38:09 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:38:09 +0100 Subject: Looking for optical grid mouse pad In-Reply-To: <7ba3eec4-5253-9d6e-a5a0-c629e82f3db6@bitsavers.org> References: <54AAC229-B5D8-4F7B-9E15-EE3A2AEFBC9B@vmssoftware.com> <20181112001346.GA4106@tau1.ceti.pl> <7ba3eec4-5253-9d6e-a5a0-c629e82f3db6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <69EB73DB-02E9-439B-982A-5D6CED991554@vmssoftware.com> On 11/14/18, 2:18 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk" wrote: here's one https://www.ebay.com/itm/192719727693 Thanks, I've bought another one from the same seller. I'll let you know if it works when it comes in. do you know if it needs a original coarse or fine grid pad? >From what I understand, the M4 uses the newer fine grid pad, and given the "M4Q" model number on my mouse, I hope that's true of this one too. I'm surprised you don't have any Sun optical mice kicking around. I do, just not any of the pads, and I never went out of my way to find one, but now that I have a system with no other option for a mouse... Camiel From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Wed Nov 14 01:42:38 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:42:38 +0100 Subject: Looking for optical grid mouse pad In-Reply-To: References: <54AAC229-B5D8-4F7B-9E15-EE3A2AEFBC9B@vmssoftware.com> <20181112001346.GA4106@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <488B5610-DCD6-435E-8572-1E8FF27F1BB1@vmssoftware.com> It is a mouse systems mouse, model M4Q, and it has the two holes (one red light, one infrared), so I'll need the blue-and-black grid. I've hopefully bought a correct one off eBay, just waiting for it to arrive. Camiel ?On 11/14/18, 3:32 AM, "cctalk on behalf of systems_glitch via cctalk" wrote: There's a blue-and-black grid, and an all-black grid, at least with Sun mice. Mice that work on one won't work on the other. At least with the blue-and-black grid, spacing didn't seem to matter -- I've got three sizes of spacing, all three work with the mice that support it. Not sure if it applies to your situation, but the Mouse Systems mice with two holes, one emitting red light, work with the blue-and-black pads, and the newer Sun mice with a single hole works on the black grid. The blue-and-black grid looks metallic blue until you take a close look with a lighted magnifier. Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 5:40 PM Rico Pajarola via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:32 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 07:12:49PM +0100, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech > > wrote: > > > On 11/10/18, 6:49 PM, "Rico Pajarola" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have tried to print my own mousepad, but the mouse only works in > > > the y direction on it. > > > > > > there were 2 versions of that mousepad, and the symptom of using the > > > wrong one was that the mouse would only move in one direction. > > > > Out of curiosity, would it work if you printed this one-directional > > grid on a translucent plastic and overlaid it on top of white paper > > sheet? If yes, then would it work if you printed two such translucent > > plastic grids and ovelaid them one on the other turned 90 degrees and > > that on white paper? > > > I never tried, but I don't think this would work. AIUI, it has a minimum > and a maximum spacing for the lines. > > The white noise sheet "works" because some the black-white-black > transitions come with the right spacing, no matter what that spacing is (it > has to be the right order of magnitude, and it doesn't work as well as the > real thing). Crumpled tin-foil has been reported to work, too. > > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Tomasz Rola > > > > -- > > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > > ** ** > > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 12:52:41 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:52:41 -0800 Subject: Removing PVA from a CRT In-Reply-To: <5CDD9C00-2035-44C5-8889-E3C29E11EEB2@snowmoose.com> References: <5CDD9C00-2035-44C5-8889-E3C29E11EEB2@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 10:41 AM Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > > Also, I have never worked on a CRT before. I am trying to find a local person who can observe me and stop me from doing something stupid. If I can?t find someone, what am I more likely to do wrong? How can I be sure I discharged it before touching it? > I have around a dozen or so HP 264x terminals with various states of CRT decay. Most have developed bubbles in the face of the CRT. Some are bad enough that the CRT has started leaking goo from the face. I have no experience doing any cleanup work on these CRT issues. We should have a CRT restoring party. Anyone else in the Seattle area have "moldy" CRTs that need some attention, and/or have experience doing the work? From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Nov 19 15:48:31 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 16:48:31 -0500 Subject: Removing PVA from a CRT In-Reply-To: <819c4f8f-329e-6c3d-5eae-e0ee254f37fe@snowmoose.com> References: <5CDD9C00-2035-44C5-8889-E3C29E11EEB2@snowmoose.com> <819c4f8f-329e-6c3d-5eae-e0ee254f37fe@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 19, 2018, at 4:01 PM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > > > > On 11/19/18 12:18 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> >> ... >> >> I have a VR201 that's like this myself, and I've been too scared to try to fix it. Instead, I've tried bodging together various hacks to try to get the signal into a modern composite to VGA converter... I've been thinking about that. There are assorted converters around for sale but the trick seems to be the sync on green (rather than separate sync which is common in various other flavors). Is there a worked-out design for this anywhere? >> Finally, a VR201 specific question. I booted the Rainbow over the >> weekend and, looking through broken-down PVA, I could see the >> Rainbow has booted and I could enter DOS commands. I could also >> see white retrace lines. What is the likely cause of that on a >> 35-year-old CRT? >> >> >> Pics? > > Here is an attempt to use Facebook for image hosting here. If it doesn't work, I will put the image up on a real image hosting site. > > https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46508514_10156808244977208_2306314600917762048_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=81c3e1ded7cb1eb6b9d1200a604d9889&oe=5C7778F1 > > alan It looks like you turned the intensity up so far that the retrace didn't get blanked fully. Not much choice about that given the bad screen, I suppose. paul From kevenm at 3kranger.com Thu Nov 15 10:10:37 2018 From: kevenm at 3kranger.com (Keven Miller(3k)) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:10:37 -0800 Subject: early ANSI C drafts, pre-1989 standard References: <3B8213D1BDEB46D69BECDECD8A0F49B3@ranger1> Message-ID: For those who expressed interest or have, I've scanned and uploaded my X3J11-88 ANSI-C Draft and Rationale pdfs. www.3kranger.com/3knotes.shtm Under the first section "Notes", item 16 and 17. direct pdf links http://www.3kranger.com/LabNotes/ANSI-C-X3J1188-Draft.pdf http://www.3kranger.com/LabNotes/ANSI-C-X3J1188-Rationale.pdf Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Luke Nesbit" To: "Keven Miller(3k)" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; "Eric Smith" Sent: Sun 07 Oct 2018 09:45 AM Subject: early ANSI C drafts, pre-1989 standard > Hi Kevin, > > On 07/10/2018 05:56, Keven Miller(3k) via cctalk wrote: >> I found that I have a copy of X3J11-88-001 >> Draft Propsed American National Standard for Information Systems - >> Programming Language C >> and X3J11-88-003 >> Rationale for Draft Proposed American National Standard for Information >> Systems - Programming Language C > > Cool! > >> They are quit lengthy, 2 sided copies. >> I suppose I could create copies if you would like. >> Or attempt to scan them into individual pdf files. > > Is it bound as a book (with a proper book spine) or wirebound, ..., etc? > Would it be easier to take it to a copy shop? For example, if it's > wirebound or spiralbound it's very easy and cheap for a copy shop to > take it apart, run the whole thing automatically through a scanning > device, and then reattach the original binding. > > I would be willing to contribute a little money to help cover cost of > this in return for a scanned copy. > > Kind regards, > > Andrew > -- > OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 > From goetz at hoffart.de Mon Nov 19 09:04:18 2018 From: goetz at hoffart.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6tz?= Hoffart) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 16:04:18 +0100 Subject: IBM 3270 Emulation Adapter (ISA) In-Reply-To: <757e4796-8eee-e16f-7f3b-87c28dbbac43@jwsss.com> References: <757e4796-8eee-e16f-7f3b-87c28dbbac43@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20181119150417.GA23192@s1.hoffart.de> On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 11:46:35PM -0800, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/18/2018 11:00 PM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > >I'm wondering if anyone knows where to find a copy of some software to > >make an IBM 3270 Emulation Adapter (the short ISA one) useful. I hear > >that IBM's PCOMM/3270 2.0 - 4.0 or so will work (on DOS) with the > >card. See also http://vetusware.com/download/IBM%20PC%203270%20Emulation%20Program/?id=12086 perhaps that could help, too. Regards G?tz From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Nov 19 12:41:36 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:41:36 -0800 Subject: Removing PVA from a CRT Message-ID: <5CDD9C00-2035-44C5-8889-E3C29E11EEB2@snowmoose.com> I recently picked up a Rainbow 100. The PVA between the safety glass and the CRT on VR201 that came with it has broken down and failed badly. I have seen videos and read about removing the safety glass, cleaning out the PVA, and reattaching and resealing the safety glass. All that I have seen basically sticks the safety glass on at its edges and leaves a void where the PVA had been. It seems to me that the PVA was providing some implosion protection. Would it work to replace the PVA and attach the safety glass to the tube with an optically clear adhesive sheet? I have seen that this exists, but have never used it before. Also, I have never worked on a CRT before. I am trying to find a local person who can observe me and stop me from doing something stupid. If I can?t find someone, what am I more likely to do wrong? How can I be sure I discharged it before touching it? Finally, a VR201 specific question. I booted the Rainbow over the weekend and, looking through broken-down PVA, I could see the Rainbow has booted and I could enter DOS commands. I could also see white retrace lines. What is the likely cause of that on a 35-year-old CRT? alan From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Nov 19 14:18:22 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 13:18:22 -0700 Subject: Removing PVA from a CRT In-Reply-To: <5CDD9C00-2035-44C5-8889-E3C29E11EEB2@snowmoose.com> References: <5CDD9C00-2035-44C5-8889-E3C29E11EEB2@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 11:41 AM Alan Perry via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I recently picked up a Rainbow 100. The PVA between the safety glass and > the CRT on VR201 that came with it has broken down and failed badly. > > I have seen videos and read about removing the safety glass, cleaning out > the PVA, and reattaching and resealing the safety glass. > > All that I have seen basically sticks the safety glass on at its edges and > leaves a void where the PVA had been. It seems to me that the PVA was > providing some implosion protection. Would it work to replace the PVA and > attach the safety glass to the tube with an optically clear adhesive sheet? > I have seen that this exists, but have never used it before. > > Also, I have never worked on a CRT before. I am trying to find a local > person who can observe me and stop me from doing something stupid. If I > can?t find someone, what am I more likely to do wrong? How can I be sure I > discharged it before touching it? > I have a VR201 that's like this myself, and I've been too scared to try to fix it. Instead, I've tried bodging together various hacks to try to get the signal into a modern composite to VGA converter... Finally, a VR201 specific question. I booted the Rainbow over the weekend > and, looking through broken-down PVA, I could see the Rainbow has booted > and I could enter DOS commands. I could also see white retrace lines. What > is the likely cause of that on a 35-year-old CRT? > Pics? Warner From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Nov 19 15:01:51 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 13:01:51 -0800 Subject: Removing PVA from a CRT In-Reply-To: References: <5CDD9C00-2035-44C5-8889-E3C29E11EEB2@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <819c4f8f-329e-6c3d-5eae-e0ee254f37fe@snowmoose.com> On 11/19/18 12:18 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 11:41 AM Alan Perry via cctech > > wrote: > > > I recently picked up a Rainbow 100. The PVA between the safety > glass and the CRT on VR201 that came with it has broken down and > failed badly. > > I have seen videos and read about removing the safety glass, > cleaning out the PVA, and reattaching and resealing the safety glass. > > All that I have seen basically sticks the safety glass on at its > edges and leaves a void where the PVA had been. It seems to me > that the PVA was providing some implosion protection. Would it > work to replace the PVA and attach the safety glass to the tube > with an optically clear adhesive sheet? I have seen that this > exists, but have never used it before. > > Also, I have never worked on a CRT before. I am trying to find a > local person who can observe me and stop me from doing something > stupid. If I can?t find someone, what am I more likely to do > wrong? How can I be sure I discharged it before touching it? > > > I have a VR201 that's like this myself, and I've been too scared to > try to fix it. Instead, I've tried bodging together various hacks to > try to get the signal into a modern composite to VGA converter... > > Finally, a VR201 specific question. I booted the Rainbow over the > weekend and, looking through broken-down PVA, I could see the > Rainbow has booted and I could enter DOS commands. I could also > see white retrace lines. What is the likely cause of that on a > 35-year-old CRT? > > > Pics? Here is an attempt to use Facebook for image hosting here. If it doesn't work, I will put the image up on a real image hosting site. https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46508514_10156808244977208_2306314600917762048_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=81c3e1ded7cb1eb6b9d1200a604d9889&oe=5C7778F1 alan > > Warner From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 15:10:32 2018 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 15:10:32 -0600 Subject: Removing PVA from a CRT In-Reply-To: <819c4f8f-329e-6c3d-5eae-e0ee254f37fe@snowmoose.com> References: <5CDD9C00-2035-44C5-8889-E3C29E11EEB2@snowmoose.com> <819c4f8f-329e-6c3d-5eae-e0ee254f37fe@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Those retrace lines are likely an artifact of the brightness control being set too high. It's pretty typical with older monochrome TV sets. It also looks like there's insufficient vertical sweep, probably due to old capacitors. On a CRT that small, I wouldn't be concerned about direct fitting the safety glass over the CRT. In fact, if it has an implosion band, that outer glass could possibly be for glare reduction only. Some TV collectors use foam tape around the perimeter of the CRT face as a cushion, then seal the glass to the face with a good quality tape. The good news is that PVA is so bad that an hour soak in a tub of warm water should do the trick. -C On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 3:02 PM Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > > > On 11/19/18 12:18 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 11:41 AM Alan Perry via cctech > > > wrote: > > > > > > I recently picked up a Rainbow 100. The PVA between the safety > > glass and the CRT on VR201 that came with it has broken down and > > failed badly. > > > > I have seen videos and read about removing the safety glass, > > cleaning out the PVA, and reattaching and resealing the safety glass. > > > > All that I have seen basically sticks the safety glass on at its > > edges and leaves a void where the PVA had been. It seems to me > > that the PVA was providing some implosion protection. Would it > > work to replace the PVA and attach the safety glass to the tube > > with an optically clear adhesive sheet? I have seen that this > > exists, but have never used it before. > > > > Also, I have never worked on a CRT before. I am trying to find a > > local person who can observe me and stop me from doing something > > stupid. If I can?t find someone, what am I more likely to do > > wrong? How can I be sure I discharged it before touching it? > > > > > > I have a VR201 that's like this myself, and I've been too scared to > > try to fix it. Instead, I've tried bodging together various hacks to > > try to get the signal into a modern composite to VGA converter... > > > > Finally, a VR201 specific question. I booted the Rainbow over the > > weekend and, looking through broken-down PVA, I could see the > > Rainbow has booted and I could enter DOS commands. I could also > > see white retrace lines. What is the likely cause of that on a > > 35-year-old CRT? > > > > > > Pics? > > Here is an attempt to use Facebook for image hosting here. If it doesn't > work, I will put the image up on a real image hosting site. > > > https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46508514_10156808244977208_2306314600917762048_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=81c3e1ded7cb1eb6b9d1200a604d9889&oe=5C7778F1 > > alan > > > > Warner > > From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Nov 19 19:12:38 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 17:12:38 -0800 Subject: Removing PVA from a CRT In-Reply-To: References: <5CDD9C00-2035-44C5-8889-E3C29E11EEB2@snowmoose.com> <819c4f8f-329e-6c3d-5eae-e0ee254f37fe@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 11/19/18 1:48 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Nov 19, 2018, at 4:01 PM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: >> >> >> >> >>> Finally, a VR201 specific question. I booted the Rainbow over the >>> weekend and, looking through broken-down PVA, I could see the >>> Rainbow has booted and I could enter DOS commands. I could also >>> see white retrace lines. What is the likely cause of that on a >>> 35-year-old CRT? >>> >>> >>> Pics? >> Here is an attempt to use Facebook for image hosting here. If it doesn't work, I will put the image up on a real image hosting site. >> >> https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46508514_10156808244977208_2306314600917762048_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=81c3e1ded7cb1eb6b9d1200a604d9889&oe=5C7778F1 >> >> alan > It looks like you turned the intensity up so far that the retrace didn't get blanked fully. Not much choice about that given the bad screen, I suppose. Actually, the intensity is turned all of the way up because that is where it happened to be when I connected everything up. I was so focused on whether DOS had booted that it didn't even click in my head that I could adjust the monitor to make it easier to read. I didn't notice that I had things turned all the way up or even notice the retrace lines until later when I looked at that picture. alan From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Nov 19 19:28:44 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 17:28:44 -0800 Subject: Removing PVA from a CRT In-Reply-To: References: <5CDD9C00-2035-44C5-8889-E3C29E11EEB2@snowmoose.com> <819c4f8f-329e-6c3d-5eae-e0ee254f37fe@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <54d22c88-4ae0-d283-1b03-2afab9b78c6e@snowmoose.com> In the video that I looked at, the guy cut 8 1/8" pieces of double-sided foam tape, three each along the top and bottom and one on each side, then sealed it with clear packing tape. It seemed to me that using some optically clear adhesive sheet would accomplish both jobs. I have some heat pads (gel in plastic that gets thrown in a microwave to heat up) for loosening the screen adhesive on iPads and such. Can I use them to get the remaining PVA to loosen up? On 11/19/18 1:10 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > Those retrace lines are likely an artifact of the brightness control > being set too high. It's pretty typical with older monochrome TV sets. > It also looks like there's insufficient vertical sweep, probably due > to old capacitors. > > On a CRT that small, I wouldn't be concerned about direct fitting the > safety glass over the CRT. In fact, if it has an implosion band, that > outer glass could possibly be for glare reduction only. Some TV > collectors use foam tape around the perimeter of the CRT face as a > cushion, then seal the glass to the face with a good quality tape. > > The good news is that PVA is so bad that an hour soak in a tub of warm > water should do the trick. -C > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 3:02 PM Alan Perry via cctech > > wrote: > > > > On 11/19/18 12:18 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 11:41 AM Alan Perry via cctech > > > >> wrote: > > > > > >? ? ?I recently picked up a Rainbow 100. The PVA between the safety > >? ? ?glass and the CRT on VR201 that came with it has broken down and > >? ? ?failed badly. > > > >? ? ?I have seen videos and read about removing the safety glass, > >? ? ?cleaning out the PVA, and reattaching and resealing the > safety glass. > > > >? ? ?All that I have seen basically sticks the safety glass on at its > >? ? ?edges and leaves a void where the PVA had been. It seems to me > >? ? ?that the PVA was providing some implosion protection. Would it > >? ? ?work to replace the PVA and attach the safety glass to the tube > >? ? ?with an optically clear adhesive sheet? I have seen that this > >? ? ?exists, but have never used it before. > > > >? ? ?Also, I have never worked on a CRT before. I am trying to find a > >? ? ?local person who can observe me and stop me from doing something > >? ? ?stupid. If I can?t find someone, what am I more likely to do > >? ? ?wrong? How can I be sure I discharged it before touching it? > > > > > > I have a VR201 that's like this myself, and I've been too scared to > > try to fix it. Instead, I've tried bodging together various > hacks to > > try to get the signal into a modern composite to VGA converter... > > > >? ? ?Finally, a VR201 specific question. I booted the Rainbow > over the > >? ? ?weekend and, looking through broken-down PVA, I could see the > >? ? ?Rainbow has booted and I could enter DOS commands. I could also > >? ? ?see white retrace lines. What is the likely cause of that on a > >? ? ?35-year-old CRT? > > > > > > Pics? > > Here is an attempt to use Facebook for image hosting here. If it > doesn't > work, I will put the image up on a real image hosting site. > > https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46508514_10156808244977208_2306314600917762048_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=81c3e1ded7cb1eb6b9d1200a604d9889&oe=5C7778F1 > > alan > > > > Warner > From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 20:08:33 2018 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 20:08:33 -0600 Subject: Removing PVA from a CRT In-Reply-To: <54d22c88-4ae0-d283-1b03-2afab9b78c6e@snowmoose.com> References: <5CDD9C00-2035-44C5-8889-E3C29E11EEB2@snowmoose.com> <819c4f8f-329e-6c3d-5eae-e0ee254f37fe@snowmoose.com> <54d22c88-4ae0-d283-1b03-2afab9b78c6e@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Nov 19, 2018, at 7:28 PM, Alan Perry wrote: > In the video that I looked at, the guy cut 8 1/8" pieces of double-sided foam tape, three each along the top and bottom and one on each side, then sealed it with clear packing tape. It seemed to me that using some optically clear adhesive sheet would accomplish both jobs. > > I have some heat pads (gel in plastic that gets thrown in a microwave to heat up) for loosening the screen adhesive on iPads and such. Can I use them to get the remaining PVA to loosen up? >> > The heat pads are worth a shot if they can maintain temp long enough to do the job, though you'll be up against quite a bit of thermal mass with that thick glass. The old trick that people are still using today with vintage 21" CRT's is to put them in a kiddie pool outside and let the sun warm the water. You don't want to start too hot for risk of cracking the glass. *Glances out window* I can tell you that trick wouldn't work here today, nor for 6 more months. If you have a way of ensuring the optically clear adhesive sheet bonds evenly and won't yellow, I don't see why that wouldn't work. I recall someone did do the foam tape/packing tape operation and then DID fill the void with a PVA type liquid material. Risky to ensure all the air bubbles made their way out, for sure. -C From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Tue Nov 20 16:14:40 2018 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 22:14:40 -0000 Subject: A weird and ancient IBM offline memory device Message-ID: <009001d4811e$6f20a780$4d61f680$@eu> Vintage geeks, Third attempt - hope springs eternal! Do any of you know where I could get hold of IBM 2321 "Data Cell" media? 1960s-1970s. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_2321_Data_Cell If you do, I would like to get hold of one. Many thanks, Peter PS Apologies if I am boring you. || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 19:58:46 2018 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 20:58:46 -0500 Subject: Removing PVA from a CRT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:41:36 -0800 > From: Alan Perry > Subject: Removing PVA from a CRT > > I recently picked up a Rainbow 100. The PVA between the safety glass and > the CRT on VR201 that came with it has broken down and failed badly. > > I have seen videos and read about removing the safety glass, cleaning out > the PVA, and reattaching and resealing the safety glass. > > All that I have seen basically sticks the safety glass on at its edges and > leaves a void where the PVA had been. It seems to me that the PVA was > providing some implosion protection. Would it work to replace the PVA and > attach the safety glass to the tube with an optically clear adhesive sheet? > I have seen that this exists, but have never used it before. > > alan > When we fixed the VR14 at the RICM, we were concerned about the safety aspects of removing the PVA and just using double-sided tape to hold the outer glass in place. We bought a thin sheet of Lexan at Home Depot, put the outer glass on a cookie sheet with the outside surface down, put the sheet of Lexan on top, and put it in an oven. When the temperature hit 420F (if I remember correctly) the Lexan softened and conformed to the inside of the glass. We trimmed the Lexan to size, reassembled the Lexan and glass to the front of the CRT, and glued the steel mounting band in place. It looks great, and is probably a lot safer than just leaving the PVA out. -- Michael Thompson From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 11:00:19 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:00:19 -0800 Subject: Removing PVA from a CRT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75BEC6FF-1DE9-4BB3-8FBB-E6616A3E664C@gmail.com> I like this idea, thanks for sharing. I might do the same for my HP 264x screens. Marc From: cctech on behalf of "cctech at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: Michael Thompson , "cctech at classiccmp.org" Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 5:59 PM To: "cctech at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: Removing PVA from a CRT When we fixed the VR14 at the RICM, we were concerned about the safety aspects of removing the PVA and just using double-sided tape to hold the outer glass in place. We bought a thin sheet of Lexan at Home Depot, put the outer glass on a cookie sheet with the outside surface down, put the sheet of Lexan on top, and put it in an oven. When the temperature hit 420F (if I remember correctly) the Lexan softened and conformed to the inside of the glass. We trimmed the Lexan to size, reassembled the Lexan and glass to the front of the CRT, and glued the steel mounting band in place. It looks great, and is probably a lot safer than just leaving the PVA out. -- Michael Thompson From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 11:25:06 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:25:06 -0800 Subject: A weird and ancient IBM offline memory device In-Reply-To: <009001d4811e$6f20a780$4d61f680$@eu> References: <009001d4811e$6f20a780$4d61f680$@eu> Message-ID: <7F137473-B48E-4065-A6DB-006801C8DD30@gmail.com> The Noodle Snatcher! We have one of these in the CHM collection. Marc From: cctech on behalf of "cctech at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: Peter Van Peborgh , "cctech at classiccmp.org" Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:14 PM To: "cctech at classiccmp.org" Subject: A weird and ancient IBM offline memory device Vintage geeks, Third attempt - hope springs eternal! Do any of you know where I could get hold of IBM 2321 "Data Cell" media? 1960s-1970s. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_2321_Data_Cell If you do, I would like to get hold of one. Many thanks, Peter PS Apologies if I am boring you. || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset???????????? BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From kfergason at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 18:33:15 2018 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:33:15 -0600 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <16738228ce4-1ebf-222a@webjas-vad240.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <61D1AFD5-817A-4265-89B9-59EE62840186@gmail.com> > On Nov 21, 2018, at 4:46 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > >> On 11/21/18 5:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Ed, >> It is YOUR mail program that is doing the extraneous insertions, and >> then not showing them to you when you view your own messages. >> >> ALL of us see either extraneous characters, or extraneous spaces in >> everything that you send! >> I use PINE in a shell account, and they show up as a whole bunch of >> inappropriate spaces. >> >> Seriously, YOUR mail program is inserting extraneous stuff. >> Everybody? but you sees it. >> > > I don't. I didn't see it until someone replied with a > > copy of the offending text included. > > > bill > same here. i didnt see them until some replies included the text. kelly From guykd at optusnet.com.au Fri Nov 23 15:43:31 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 08:43:31 +1100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <20181123182725.GC13508@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181123175403.GB13508@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181124084331.010cd280@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 07:27 PM 23/11/2018 +0100, you wrote: >On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 07:01:17PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: >> On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 at 18:54, Tomasz Rola via cctalk >> wrote: >> > >> > Turn off trashing mails with Unicode in Subject and see if this solves >> > a problem? >> >> *Loud laughter in the office* >> >> Well _played_, sir! > >Well, that was low hanging fruit. Yes, I should have pre-empted that one. But glad it gave someone a laugh. >But if he indeed turns it off and >the problem is not gone, that will be a bit of puzzle. It's not related. My cctalk filter runs before the UTF-8 trash filter, and I check the trashbin regularly. >Will require >some way to compare mailboxes in search of pattern in missing >emails... Which may or may not be obvious... which will lead to more >puzzles... oy maybe I should have stayed muted and let others do the >job... Here's one check. See attached screen-cap of cctalk emails. Usually many per day, but only one per day on the 15th & 16th Nov, none at all on the 17th. Did the list actually go silent then? It's possible by random ebb and flow, or maybe everyone was in shock over the awful Paradise fire death toll. Which may be over 1000, unless a lot of people listed as missing do turn up. Guy From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 25 07:16:53 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 13:16:53 -0000 Subject: DEC Professional 350 ROMs Message-ID: <030801d484c1$22d8dfe0$688a9fa0$@ntlworld.com> I have some ROMs from two DEC Pro 350s I want to image. My programmer fails to identify them automatically. From the technical manual it would seem that they are two 8K ROMS in a DIP24 package. I have tried to pick some other model of ROM and read them, but I am not convinced I am reading them correctly as a result (top 4K all 1s). Here are the markings. On one pair the ROMs are Motorola and one of them is marked LM8450 254E4 SCM 90448C ID8402 On the other pair one of them is marked: /B8250 MM51264KXL/N 23-115E4-00 TP-03 And the other is marked: Mostek 8252 MK36C25N-5 23-116E4-00 TP01 I know that in all cases the last line is just an ID for the actual contents and the last two have a DEC part number in the penultimate line. I have found that using Motorola MCM68766 seems to read the ROMs from one of the machines and I don't get verification errors when I try to read them back again a few times, although the contents don't seem to have any recognisable strings. Using Motorola MCM2716 gave me fewer bytes (of course), but there seemed to be recognisable strings too. The other pair of ROM chips from the second machine always give verification errors. I don't know if they are bad, or if it is just timing problems given that I am not using the right parameters for the ROM chip in the first place. Can anyone point me at a datasheet that might describe these ROMs, or at least what they might be equivalent to so I can set my programmer accordingly? Regards Rob From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sun Nov 25 08:28:32 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 15:28:32 +0100 Subject: Looking for optical grid mouse pad In-Reply-To: <488B5610-DCD6-435E-8572-1E8FF27F1BB1@vmssoftware.com> References: <54AAC229-B5D8-4F7B-9E15-EE3A2AEFBC9B@vmssoftware.com> <20181112001346.GA4106@tau1.ceti.pl> <488B5610-DCD6-435E-8572-1E8FF27F1BB1@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: <22F779EF-7EDB-4F7F-B9AD-95520AEDE063@vmssoftware.com> Just to let you all know, I received an IMSI (Mouse Systems M4) mouse with mousepad, and that mousepad works with the Ardent's mouse as well. Camiel ?On 11/14/18, 8:42 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk" wrote: It is a mouse systems mouse, model M4Q, and it has the two holes (one red light, one infrared), so I'll need the blue-and-black grid. I've hopefully bought a correct one off eBay, just waiting for it to arrive. Camiel ?On 11/14/18, 3:32 AM, "cctalk on behalf of systems_glitch via cctalk" wrote: There's a blue-and-black grid, and an all-black grid, at least with Sun mice. Mice that work on one won't work on the other. At least with the blue-and-black grid, spacing didn't seem to matter -- I've got three sizes of spacing, all three work with the mice that support it. Not sure if it applies to your situation, but the Mouse Systems mice with two holes, one emitting red light, work with the blue-and-black pads, and the newer Sun mice with a single hole works on the black grid. The blue-and-black grid looks metallic blue until you take a close look with a lighted magnifier. Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 5:40 PM Rico Pajarola via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:32 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 07:12:49PM +0100, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech > > wrote: > > > On 11/10/18, 6:49 PM, "Rico Pajarola" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have tried to print my own mousepad, but the mouse only works in > > > the y direction on it. > > > > > > there were 2 versions of that mousepad, and the symptom of using the > > > wrong one was that the mouse would only move in one direction. > > > > Out of curiosity, would it work if you printed this one-directional > > grid on a translucent plastic and overlaid it on top of white paper > > sheet? If yes, then would it work if you printed two such translucent > > plastic grids and ovelaid them one on the other turned 90 degrees and > > that on white paper? > > > I never tried, but I don't think this would work. AIUI, it has a minimum > and a maximum spacing for the lines. > > The white noise sheet "works" because some the black-white-black > transitions come with the right spacing, no matter what that spacing is (it > has to be the right order of magnitude, and it doesn't work as well as the > real thing). Crumpled tin-foil has been reported to work, too. > > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Tomasz Rola > > > > -- > > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > > ** ** > > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** > > > From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sun Nov 25 08:42:53 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 15:42:53 +0100 Subject: Working Ardent Titan on Youtube Message-ID: <93862533-8FD6-43E1-B3C6-4F1C6413FA12@vmssoftware.com> Now that my mousepad problem has been solved, and I have a fully working Ardent Titan with some interesting software on it ? the bundled version of MATLAB, and BIOGRAF, a molecular modeling application ? I decided to make a short video about this system in which I show the hardware and demonstrate some of the software: https://youtu.be/tMSnnt3iFz0 For those who haven?t heard of the system; the 1987 Ardent Titan (later renamed the Stardent 1500) was the first system that combined vector processors (as in a Cray-like architecture) and a graphics engine on the same backplane, and was the highest-performing graphics supercomputer for a short while. In the end, however, a longer than planned time to market and a forced merger with Stellar Computer caused the premature demise of the company. Cleve Moler, the inventor of MATLAB, worked at Ardent for three years, which is one of the reasons the Titan was the only computer ever to come with MATLAB as part of its bundled software. As I found out later ? after creating this video ? the version of MATLAB on the Titan was unique, because it included a ?render? command, which would plot a 3D surface using the Dor? graphics library. On other platforms, MATLAB could only render mesh plots. It wasn?t until 1992 that the mainstream version of MATLAB gained 3D surface rendering. Cleve wrote a number of articles on his blog about the Titan, one of which (https://blogs.mathworks.com/cleve/2013/12/09/the-ardent-titan-part-2/) describes how the Titan was used to create a video of a vibrating L-shaped membrane. With a little help from Cleve, I?m trying to recreate this video. A first effort ? which isn?t quite right yet ? can be seen here: https://youtu.be/-XeabDqRAG8 I hope some of you enjoy these! Camiel From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Nov 25 09:32:46 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 09:32:46 -0600 Subject: Working Ardent Titan on Youtube In-Reply-To: <93862533-8FD6-43E1-B3C6-4F1C6413FA12@vmssoftware.com> References: <93862533-8FD6-43E1-B3C6-4F1C6413FA12@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: <5BFAC09E.9060004@pico-systems.com> On 11/25/2018 08:42 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech wrote: > Now that my mousepad problem has been solved, and I have a fully working Ardent Titan with some interesting software on it ? the bundled version of MATLAB, and BIOGRAF, a molecular modeling application ? I decided to make a short video about this system in which I show the hardware and demonstrate some of the software: https://youtu.be/tMSnnt3iFz0 > > > > WOW! Just wow! That is pretty impressive, but for 1987, it is truly awesome! Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Nov 25 10:26:56 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 11:26:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Working Ardent Titan on Youtube Message-ID: <20181125162656.AB87418C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Camiel Vanderhoeven > I have a fully working Ardent Titan with some interesting software on > it - the bundled version of MATLAB, and BIOGRAF, a molecular modeling > application Neat! Excellent! Do you have the source for any/all of the software on it? Noel From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 10:56:43 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 16:56:43 -0000 Subject: TCL Terminal Message-ID: <21a001d484df$d87de610$8979b230$@gmail.com> Folks, While sorting through my pile of 3270 terminals I came across a little plastic box with 2 x 9-pin rs232, 1x25pin printer port and one VGA port. On taking the lid off it seems it's a terminal for NYCE made by TCL but I can find no info on the net. I put a few pics of it here:- https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ag4BJfE5B3onkY8FlfveCwr73J5HIw I can't seem to get into ant set-up menus, and I am sure it used to show these, Does any one have any documents on these? Searching on google is hampered by the fact there is a TCL language. Dave Wade G4UGM & EA7KAE From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 11:19:04 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 09:19:04 -0800 Subject: DEC Professional 350 ROMs In-Reply-To: <030801d484c1$22d8dfe0$688a9fa0$@ntlworld.com> References: <030801d484c1$22d8dfe0$688a9fa0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 25, 2018, 5:20 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk I have some ROMs from two DEC Pro 350s I want to image. My programmer fails > to identify them automatically. From the technical manual it would seem > that > they are two 8K ROMS in a DIP24 package. I have tried to pick some other > model of ROM and read them, but I am not convinced I am reading them > correctly as a result (top 4K all 1s). > > On the other pair one of them is marked: > > /B8250 > > MM51264KXL/N > > 23-115E4-00 > > TP-03 > > > > And the other is marked: > > Mostek 8252 > > MK36C25N-5 > > 23-116E4-00 > > TP01 > The 23-115E4 and 23-116E4 pair images are available here: http://www.dunnington.info/public/DECROMs/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 25 11:22:11 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 09:22:11 -0800 Subject: TCL Terminal In-Reply-To: <21a001d484df$d87de610$8979b230$@gmail.com> References: <21a001d484df$d87de610$8979b230$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2dcc67b3-f926-2e6c-d98b-8903a3fc7d50@bitsavers.org> On 11/25/18 8:56 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > I can't seem to get into ant set-up menus, and I am sure it used to show > these, Does any one have any documents on these? try holding down the space bar on powerup dumps of the firmware would be nice From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 25 11:24:44 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 09:24:44 -0800 Subject: TCL Terminal In-Reply-To: <2dcc67b3-f926-2e6c-d98b-8903a3fc7d50@bitsavers.org> References: <21a001d484df$d87de610$8979b230$@gmail.com> <2dcc67b3-f926-2e6c-d98b-8903a3fc7d50@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: you accidentally included a pic of the memorex terminal as picture 1 so there isn't a picture of the back of the board. I'm assuming there is an AT keyboard connector on the TCL On 11/25/18 9:22 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 11/25/18 8:56 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > >> I can't seem to get into ant set-up menus, and I am sure it used to show >> these, Does any one have any documents on these? > > try holding down the space bar on powerup > > dumps of the firmware would be nice > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 25 11:35:38 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 09:35:38 -0800 Subject: TCL Terminal In-Reply-To: <2dcc67b3-f926-2e6c-d98b-8903a3fc7d50@bitsavers.org> References: <21a001d484df$d87de610$8979b230$@gmail.com> <2dcc67b3-f926-2e6c-d98b-8903a3fc7d50@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 11/25/18 9:22 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > try holding down the space bar on powerup this also works to get into local test on the mtx 1483 i was able to get this to work with a Compaq 122-key kb but not with the 102-key telex kb I tried From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 25 11:41:33 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 09:41:33 -0800 Subject: TCL Terminal In-Reply-To: References: <21a001d484df$d87de610$8979b230$@gmail.com> <2dcc67b3-f926-2e6c-d98b-8903a3fc7d50@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Don't know the exact product, but TCL INc. was in Fremont, CA and was a maker of various bits of LAN gear. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 25 11:55:24 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 09:55:24 -0800 Subject: TCL Terminal In-Reply-To: References: <21a001d484df$d87de610$8979b230$@gmail.com> <2dcc67b3-f926-2e6c-d98b-8903a3fc7d50@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <271376c2-9c67-6e42-638b-746951809b32@bitsavers.org> 'TCL' are the initials of the person who created the first Ethernet transceiver (Tat Lam). https://books.google.com/books?id=ooBqdIXIqbwC&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73 He also sold the first 10mbit transceiver and repeater. On 11/25/18 9:41 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Don't know the exact product, but TCL INc. was in Fremont, CA and was a > maker of various bits of LAN gear. > > --Chuck > From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Nov 25 11:55:33 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 12:55:33 -0500 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <61D1AFD5-817A-4265-89B9-59EE62840186@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1674c03244a-1ec4-1c2b@webjas-vaa145.srv.aolmail.net> seems only the? very old? ?mail programs? do not adapt? to all character sets?? In a message dated 11/25/2018 6:19:52 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > On Nov 21, 2018, at 4:46 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > >> On 11/21/18 5:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Ed, >> It is YOUR mail program that is doing the extraneous insertions, and >> then not showing them to you when you view your own messages. >> >> ALL of us see either extraneous characters, or extraneous spaces in >> everything that you send! >> I use PINE in a shell account, and they show up as a whole bunch of >> inappropriate spaces. >> >> Seriously, YOUR mail program is inserting extraneous stuff. >> Everybody? but you sees it. >> > > I don't. I didn't see it until someone replied with a > > copy of the offending text included. > > > bill > same here. i didnt see them until some replies included the text. kelly From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 25 12:24:37 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 10:24:37 -0800 Subject: TCL Terminal In-Reply-To: <271376c2-9c67-6e42-638b-746951809b32@bitsavers.org> References: <21a001d484df$d87de610$8979b230$@gmail.com> <2dcc67b3-f926-2e6c-d98b-8903a3fc7d50@bitsavers.org> <271376c2-9c67-6e42-638b-746951809b32@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2fcd0f55-f1dc-66ff-22a4-ad7bd42a20da@sydex.com> On 11/25/18 9:55 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > 'TCL' are the initials of the person who created the first Ethernet transceiver (Tat Lam). > > > https://books.google.com/books?id=ooBqdIXIqbwC&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73 I note that the same section mentions Jim Theornton. I recall on a trip to CDC ARHOPS in Arden Hills, seeing a backhoe trenching around the employee parking lot. The path didn't make much sense, so I asked a co-worker about it. "Oh, that's Jim Thornton laying his coax loop."... --Chuck From technoid6502 at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 12:37:15 2018 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 13:37:15 -0500 Subject: Sun Optical Mouse and pad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0e904dd4991be85931340de19e945d5a6a3e136c.camel@gmail.com> I had a Sparcstation 4/330 with optical mouse, without the pad. Of course I wanted one, and eventually found one, but in the interim, I did what an old hack suggested and printed myself a grid on paper. Works peachy. The spacing of the grid will determine the tracking speed of the mouse. Graph paper works if you get a fine grid. Try .5cm. Just to get you on the road til' your pad gets to you. My old hack told me they had a problem with the pads disappearing and had a file on their network for folks to just print themselves one for the day. Jeff From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 13:02:07 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 19:02:07 -0000 Subject: TCL Terminal In-Reply-To: References: <21a001d484df$d87de610$8979b230$@gmail.com> <2dcc67b3-f926-2e6c-d98b-8903a3fc7d50@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <222b01d484f1$5d257e30$17707a90$@gmail.com> Oops. Yes the back has VGA, 2 x 9-pin din for serial, 1x25 pin, DIN Keyboard and Din light pen IEC mains in, mains out for display. I will pop a picture up later... ... and I will try the space bar on switch on Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via > cctalk > Sent: 25 November 2018 17:25 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: TCL Terminal > > you accidentally included a pic of the memorex terminal as picture 1 so there > isn't a picture of the back of the board. I'm assuming there is an AT keyboard > connector on the TCL > > > On 11/25/18 9:22 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > On 11/25/18 8:56 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > > >> I can't seem to get into ant set-up menus, and I am sure it used to > >> show these, Does any one have any documents on these? > > > > try holding down the space bar on powerup > > > > dumps of the firmware would be nice > > > > From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 13:27:31 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 20:27:31 +0100 Subject: Removing PVA from a CRT In-Reply-To: References: <5CDD9C00-2035-44C5-8889-E3C29E11EEB2@snowmoose.com> <819c4f8f-329e-6c3d-5eae-e0ee254f37fe@snowmoose.com> <54d22c88-4ae0-d283-1b03-2afab9b78c6e@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: > > The heat pads are worth a shot if they can maintain temp long enough to do > the job, though you'll be up against quite a bit of thermal mass with that > thick glass. The old trick that people are still using today with vintage > 21" CRT's is to put them in a kiddie pool outside and let the sun warm the > water. You don't want to start too hot for risk of cracking the glass. > *Glances out window* I can tell you that trick wouldn't work here today, > nor for 6 more months. > > If you have a way of ensuring the optically clear adhesive sheet bonds > evenly and won't yellow, I don't see why that wouldn't work. I recall > someone did do the foam tape/packing tape operation and then DID fill the > void with a PVA type liquid material. Risky to ensure all the air bubbles > made their way out, for sure. -C > > > I did some tiny bit of research into this when I dealt with my HP2640 B and a VR201. The former was in a condition where just a tiny fraction in the middle of the screen attached to the glass so it almost fell of by itself. With the VR201 the story was a bit different. I didn't want to heat it up like most people seems to be doing when looking at the Youtube clips. I checked the solubility of the PVA (PVAc really, PVA is something different) in water and nothing happened at all. I tried to heat the water a bit but no change. I am not sure how come people are successful with this method. But I investigated PVAc a bit and found out that it is soluble in various esters. I bought a bottle of Butylacetate and indeed it made it dissolve quite well. Butylacetate is mostly used as as solvent for polyester paints, and I think it is an ingredient in what women use for removing nail polish (when not using acetone). BTW Acetone is also dissolving PVAc very well but the boiling temperature is much lower. As far as I can understand Butylacetate is not very harmful to deal with either. What I did wash to inject butylacetate using a long needle syringe in between the front glass and the CRT and let it rest for a few days. I put some plastic wrap around to contain the butylacetate a bit more and then I repeated it a couple of times until the front glass simply fell off. This is the method I will use in future with my other screens that have the same problem (HP2645, HP9835, HP9845, (Possibly also the Tektronix 4016 depending on the type of front glass used). /Mattis From mcquiggi at me.com Sun Nov 25 12:04:29 2018 From: mcquiggi at me.com (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 10:04:29 -0800 Subject: UniBone - access DEC PDP-11 UNIBUS under Linux In-Reply-To: <1bee41af-8a8b-ee1d-5dc9-b160eef42a63@t-online.de> References: <1bee41af-8a8b-ee1d-5dc9-b160eef42a63@t-online.de> Message-ID: <7526CEBE-43CE-4C47-B14B-6C23B980263D@me.com> Wow, fantastic!!! Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 12, 2018, at 05:33, J?rg Hoppe via cctech wrote: > > Guys, > > I'm about to finish another project: > "UniBone" - a Linux-to-UNIBUS bridge, based on the BeagleBone Black. > > It is supposed to be a development platform for device emulation. > At the moment it can emulate memory, emulate an RL11 controller with 4 RL drives attached, and act as UNIBUS hardware test adapter. > > There are some web pages at http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone > And I'll show it on VCFE.CH in Zurich on Nov 24/25, plugged into a PDP-11/05. > > Enjoy, > Joerg > From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Nov 25 14:24:31 2018 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 12:24:31 -0800 Subject: e-mail, character sets, encodings (was Re: George Keremedjiev) In-Reply-To: <1674c03244a-1ec4-1c2b@webjas-vaa145.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1674c03244a-1ec4-1c2b@webjas-vaa145.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <2794AC7E-D6C4-4C1D-A554-A547CF2D650C@reanimators.org> Very old mail programs indeed have no understanding whatsoever of character sets or encoding. They simply display data from the e-mail file on stdout or equivalent. If you are lucky, the character set and encoding in the e-mail match the character set and encoding used by your terminal. The early-to-mid-1990s MIME work was in some part about allowing e-mail to indicate its character set and encoding, because at that point in time there were many character sets and multiple encodings. Before that, you had to figure them out from your correspondent's e-mail address and the mess on your screen or printout. And really it's not just about the mail program, it's about the host operating system and the hardware on which it runs and which you are using to view e-mail. Heavy-metal characters are likely to look funny on a terminal built to display US-ASCII like an HP 2645. Your chances get better if the software has enough understanding of various Roman-language text encodings and you are using an HP 2622 with HP-ROMAN8 character support and the connection between your host and terminal is eight-bit-clean. But then you get something that uses Cyrillic and now you're looking at having another HP 2645 set up to do Russian. And hoping your host software knows how to deal with those character sets and encodings too! -Frank McConnell On Nov 25, 2018, at 9:55, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > seems only the very old mail programs do not adapt to all character sets? > > > In a message dated 11/25/2018 6:19:52 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > > >> On Nov 21, 2018, at 4:46 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> On 11/21/18 5:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Ed, >>> It is YOUR mail program that is doing the extraneous insertions, and >>> then not showing them to you when you view your own messages. >>> >>> ALL of us see either extraneous characters, or extraneous spaces in >>> everything that you send! >>> I use PINE in a shell account, and they show up as a whole bunch of >>> inappropriate spaces. >>> >>> Seriously, YOUR mail program is inserting extraneous stuff. >>> Everybody? but you sees it. >>> >> >> I don't. I didn't see it until someone replied with a >> >> copy of the offending text included. >> >> >> bill >> > same here. i didnt see them until some replies included the text. > > kelly > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Nov 25 16:42:08 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 15:42:08 -0700 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <7db8b9e8-86c9-0050-6cd6-c8881991729c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/23/18 4:12 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > That's English-language cultural snobbery. I don't think I'd go that far. I'd suspect it's an unfortunate false positive of a spam filtering technique that Guy uses. Does the technique have some negative side effects? Sure. Are said side effects intentional? I doubt it. > I'm a native Anglophone but I live in a non-English speaking country, > Czechia. I bet you see all sorts of things that I'm ignorant of. > For example, right now, I am in my office in K?i??kova. I can't > type that name correctly without Unicode characters, because the ANSI > character set doesn't contain enough letters for Czech. Intriguing. Is there an old MS-DOS Code Page (or comparable technique) that does encompass the necessary characters? > It can cope with some Western European letters needed for Spanish, > French etc., but not even enough for the Norwegian letter ``?''. So > I can type the name of the district of Prague I'm in -- Karl?n -- > and you'll probably see that, but the street name, I am guessing not. Would you please provide an example? (I'm curious if my email client will display things properly.) Feel free to pick any example that you like so that you don't have to reveal information you might want to keep private. > "Krizikova" is usually close enough but it's not correct. Those letters > are important. E.g. "s?rov?" means cheesy, but "syrov?" means > raw. That's a significant difference. Oh my. I had no idea that accent characters made such a difference. But I consider that to be my personal ignorance living in the U.S.A. I do NOT think it's anybody's fault by my own. I'll defend others if someone tries to say that their native / local regional norm is the problem. > It matters to me and I'm not even Czech and don't speak it particularly > well... Fair enough. > So if you tried to mail me something at work -- the address I normally > use, for instance for the Alphasmart Dana Wireless on the way to to > me from Baltimore right now -- and you get a reply saying "package for > [streetname] undeliverable" in the subject -- you'd just reject it. > > That's basically discriminating against people who don't speak your > language, and in my book, that's not OK. I will say that I think everybody has their own individual prerogative to filter email as they see fit. They just need to know that they are doing and own the fact that they might be causing unintentional harm. P.S. Resending from the correct email address. ? A recent Thunderbird update broke the Correct-Identity add-on. :-( -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Nov 25 16:42:37 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 15:42:37 -0700 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <20181123125210.GA32473@mooli.org.uk> References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181123125210.GA32473@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <4cdae5fc-899c-3c50-c01b-90f89aa78570@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/23/18 5:52 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > Worse than that, it's *American* ignorance and cultural snobbery which > also affects various English-speaking countries. Please do not ascribe such ignorance with such a broad brush, at least not without qualifiers that account for people that do try to respect other people's cultures. > The pound sign is not in US-ASCII, and the euro sign is not in ISO-8859-1, > for example. Well, seeing as how ASCII, the /American/ Standard Code for Information Interchange, is inherently /American/, I don't personally fault it for not having currency symbols for other languages / regions. Instead, I consider ASCII to be a limited standard. Hence why so much effort has gone into other standards to overcome this, and other, limitation(s). I do not know for sure, but I'm confident that other character sets don't have characters / glyphs from other languages. I'm sure that there is room for a discussion of why ASCII is used as the underlying character set for network services and the imposition that it imposes on international friends and colleagues. > Amusingly, peering through my inbox in which I have mail in both Dutch > and English, the only one with a UTF-8 subject line is in English. It > was probably composed on a Windows box which "helpfully" turned a hyphen > into an en-dash. I'm trying to NOT search my mailbox. I'd be more curious about the number of bodies that contain UTF-8 or UTF-16 that can encode more characters / glyphs. It's my understanding that without some special quite modern extensions, non-ASCII is shunned in headers, including the Subject: header. P.S. Resending from the correct email address. ? A recent Thunderbird update broke the Correct-Identity add-on. :-( -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Nov 25 16:44:53 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 15:44:53 -0700 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <20181123182725.GC13508@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181123175403.GB13508@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181123182725.GC13508@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <98f730aa-f7a9-f991-9abd-a9202da14430@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/23/18 11:27 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > Well, that was low hanging fruit. But if he indeed turns it off and the > problem is not gone, that will be a bit of puzzle. Will require some way > to compare mailboxes in search of pattern in missing emails... Which may > or may not be obvious... which will lead to more puzzles... oy maybe I > should have stayed muted and let others do the job... I'd question modern anti-spam techniques like DMARC and DKIM. I'd suggest checking the mailing list to see if there is any information about bounces. You can probably see crumbs of missing messages in message flow (likely already happening), the References: & In-Reply-To: headers, and the list archive. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Nov 25 16:51:15 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 22:51:15 +0000 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <4cdae5fc-899c-3c50-c01b-90f89aa78570@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181123125210.GA32473@mooli.org.uk> <4cdae5fc-899c-3c50-c01b-90f89aa78570@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 11/25/18 5:42 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 11/23/18 5:52 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >> Worse than that, it's *American* ignorance and cultural snobbery >> which also affects various English-speaking countries. > > Please do not ascribe such ignorance with such a broad brush, at least > not without qualifiers that account for people that do try to respect > other people's cultures. > > Q.? What do you call someone who speaks three languages? A. Trilingual. Q.? What do you call someone who speaks two languages? A. Bilingual. Q.? What do you call someone who speaks one language? A. American. OK, it's a joke. (I'm American and speak 4 languages.) bill From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Nov 25 16:51:44 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 17:51:44 -0500 Subject: Removing PVA from a CRT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1674d124f0e-1ec3-7e4@webjas-vac139.srv.aolmail.net> Saving this? thread! Thanks? for the great info and hints? as we have a stack of HP? 254x terminals? and some of them? graphics? hi end? ones... have? no idea if they? will light off for? not but thankful to have? even as? static? displays.? Ed Sharpe? Archivist for? SMECC?? ? ? ? ? ? In a message dated 11/25/2018 12:27:56 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > > The heat pads are worth a shot if they can maintain temp long enough to do > the job, though you'll be up against quite a bit of thermal mass with that > thick glass. The old trick that people are still using today with vintage > 21" CRT's is to put them in a kiddie pool outside and let the sun warm the > water. You don't want to start too hot for risk of cracking the glass. > *Glances out window* I can tell you that trick wouldn't work here today, > nor for 6 more months. > > If you have a way of ensuring the optically clear adhesive sheet bonds > evenly and won't yellow, I don't see why that wouldn't work. I recall > someone did do the foam tape/packing tape operation and then DID fill the > void with a PVA type liquid material. Risky to ensure all the air bubbles > made their way out, for sure. -C > > > I did some tiny bit of research into this when I dealt with my HP2640 B and a VR201. The former was in a condition where just a tiny fraction in the middle of the screen attached to the glass so it almost fell of by itself. With the VR201 the story was a bit different. I didn't want to heat it up like most people seems to be doing when looking at the Youtube clips. I checked the solubility of the PVA (PVAc really, PVA is something different) in water and nothing happened at all. I tried to heat the water a bit but no change. I am not sure how come people are successful with this method. But I investigated PVAc a bit and found out that it is soluble in various esters. I bought a bottle of Butylacetate and indeed it made it dissolve quite well. Butylacetate is mostly used as as solvent for polyester paints, and I think it is an ingredient in what women use for removing nail polish (when not using acetone). BTW Acetone is also dissolving PVAc very well but the boiling temperature is much lower. As far as I can understand Butylacetate is not very harmful to deal with either. What I did wash to inject butylacetate using a long needle syringe in between the front glass and the CRT and let it rest for a few days. I put some plastic wrap around to contain the butylacetate a bit more and then I repeated it a couple of times until the front glass simply fell off. This is the method I will use in future with my other screens that have the same problem (HP2645, HP9835, HP9845, (Possibly also the Tektronix 4016 depending on the type of front glass used). /Mattis From lproven at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 16:53:00 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 23:53:00 +0100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <7db8b9e8-86c9-0050-6cd6-c8881991729c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <7db8b9e8-86c9-0050-6cd6-c8881991729c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 23:42, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I bet you see all sorts of things that I'm ignorant of. It's been enlightening! Some I was ready for. E.g. In French or Spanish, both of which I can speak to some extent, letters like ? or ? are not seen as separate letters: French would call them a-acute, an a with an acute accent. ? is a c with a cedilla. Etc. But in Swedish/Norwegian/Danish -- I speak basic Norwegian and rudimentary Swedish -- ? and ? and ? and so on are not a or o with accents on: they are _different letters_ that come at the end of the alphabet. Czech is like that. ? and ? and ? and many more that my Mac can't readily type are _extra letters_ which come after the unmodified form in the alphabet. Without them, you can't write correct Czech. It's worse than writing English without the letter E. Usually you can guess but not always. Byt means flat, apartment; b y-acute t means the verb "to be". You can probably work that out, but you can't always. A restaurant menu would be hopelessly corrupted as both "raw" and "with cheese" are quite likely. > > For example, right now, I am in my office in K?i??kova. I can't > > type that name correctly without Unicode characters, because the ANSI > > character set doesn't contain enough letters for Czech. > > Intriguing. Is there an old MS-DOS Code Page (or comparable technique) > that does encompass the necessary characters? Don't know. But I suspect there weren't many PCs here before the Velvet Revolution in 1989. Democracy came around the time of Windows 3.0 so there may not have been much of a commerical drive. > Would you please provide an example? Sure, my office street name: K?i??kova > (I'm curious if my email client > will display things properly.) K, r ha?ek, i, z ha?ek, i acute, k o v a. A hacek is like an upside down circumflex: ^ Also known as a caron. > Oh my. I had no idea that accent characters made such a difference. But > I consider that to be my personal ignorance living in the U.S.A. I do > NOT think it's anybody's fault by my own. I'll defend others if someone > tries to say that their native / local regional norm is the problem. Oh yes. It's quite a minefield. Czech keyboards have so many extra letters, the *numbers* are on shift combinations! > I will say that I think everybody has their own individual prerogative > to filter email as they see fit. They just need to know that they are > doing and own the fact that they might be causing unintentional harm. > > P.S. Resending from the correct email address. ? A recent Thunderbird > update broke the Correct-Identity add-on. :-( Well yes. I believe Mr Corlett here rejects all mail from gmail.com -- except mine... ;-) -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 16:53:20 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 22:53:20 -0000 Subject: TCL Terminal In-Reply-To: <2dcc67b3-f926-2e6c-d98b-8903a3fc7d50@bitsavers.org> References: <21a001d484df$d87de610$8979b230$@gmail.com> <2dcc67b3-f926-2e6c-d98b-8903a3fc7d50@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <23aa01d48511$a9d84c10$fd88e430$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via > cctalk > Sent: 25 November 2018 17:22 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: TCL Terminal > > > > On 11/25/18 8:56 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > > I can't seem to get into ant set-up menus, and I am sure it used to > > show these, Does any one have any documents on these? > > try holding down the space bar on powerup > No > dumps of the firmware would be nice > I think that?s the only way I will find out if there is a setup menu. I am beginning to think it might be a dedicated function terminal with no config options. It does work as a terminal on but its not ANSI/VT. When I run EDIT on the VAX it goes into some graphics mode. I have put it on to my ToDo list but don't hold your breath. Dave G4UGM From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 25 17:06:29 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 15:06:29 -0800 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <7db8b9e8-86c9-0050-6cd6-c8881991729c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <02c64a93-2493-17ae-f8d9-006793b13163@sydex.com> On 11/25/18 2:53 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 23:42, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: > >> I bet you see all sorts of things that I'm ignorant of. > > It's been enlightening! I routinely get Turkish and Greek spam in my mailbox--and I've gotten Cyrillic-alphabet stuff as well. Shrug. We all live on the same planet. --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Nov 25 17:11:44 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 23:11:44 +0000 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <02c64a93-2493-17ae-f8d9-006793b13163@sydex.com> References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <7db8b9e8-86c9-0050-6cd6-c8881991729c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <02c64a93-2493-17ae-f8d9-006793b13163@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/25/18 6:06 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/25/18 2:53 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 23:42, Grant Taylor via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> I bet you see all sorts of things that I'm ignorant of. >> It's been enlightening! > I routinely get Turkish and Greek spam in my mailbox--and I've gotten > Cyrillic-alphabet stuff as well. > > Shrug. We all live on the same planet. > I live in the US and while I see less of it now than I used to, at the University I used to get SPAM in Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Cyrillic, Arabic, Hebrew and a couple of time even Amharic.? Thus the reason ASCII is no longer the "standard". bill From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Nov 25 17:26:27 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 16:26:27 -0700 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181123125210.GA32473@mooli.org.uk> <4cdae5fc-899c-3c50-c01b-90f89aa78570@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <390f272c-ff85-4f54-33d9-0ed6de1adf1f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/25/18 3:51 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Q.? What do you call someone who speaks three languages? > > A. Trilingual. > > Q.? What do you call someone who speaks two languages? > > A. Bilingual. > > Q.? What do you call someone who speaks one language? > > A. American. Monolingual. > OK, it's a joke. (I'm American and speak 4 languages.) I've heard it before. I know there are a LOT of monolingual people in the world that don't live in the U.S.A. But I'll guess that percentage wise, the U.S.A. is probably up there for monolingual people. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 17:32:16 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 18:32:16 -0500 Subject: e-mail, character sets, encodings (was Re: George Keremedjiev) In-Reply-To: <2794AC7E-D6C4-4C1D-A554-A547CF2D650C@reanimators.org> References: <1674c03244a-1ec4-1c2b@webjas-vaa145.srv.aolmail.net> <2794AC7E-D6C4-4C1D-A554-A547CF2D650C@reanimators.org> Message-ID: Most mail servers sending inbound messages to the list include the encoding scheme in the header. The mailer program should process and translate the email message body accordingly...in theory anyway. The set up and testing of a sampling of encoding variations would reveal which interpreters were missing in our particular list's relay process. Someone could create tests with the most common 20 or so encoding schemes and a character set dump and document the results etc. Anyone have the time for that? I dont really think asking persons to fix their email program is the solution, it's a mailing list fix/enhancement. I bet there is documentation on such a procedure I can't imagine we are the first to encounter this problem. It's fixable B On Sun, Nov 25, 2018, 3:24 PM Frank McConnell via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > Very old mail programs indeed have no understanding whatsoever of > character sets or encoding. They simply display data from the e-mail file > on stdout or equivalent. If you are lucky, the character set and encoding > in the e-mail match the character set and encoding used by your terminal. > > The early-to-mid-1990s MIME work was in some part about allowing e-mail to > indicate its character set and encoding, because at that point in time > there were many character sets and multiple encodings. Before that, you > had to figure them out from your correspondent's e-mail address and the > mess on your screen or printout. > > And really it's not just about the mail program, it's about the host > operating system and the hardware on which it runs and which you are using > to view e-mail. Heavy-metal characters are likely to look funny on a > terminal built to display US-ASCII like an HP 2645. Your chances get > better if the software has enough understanding of various Roman-language > text encodings and you are using an HP 2622 with HP-ROMAN8 character > support and the connection between your host and terminal is > eight-bit-clean. But then you get something that uses Cyrillic and now > you're looking at having another HP 2645 set up to do Russian. And hoping > your host software knows how to deal with those character sets and > encodings too! > > -Frank McConnell > > On Nov 25, 2018, at 9:55, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > > > seems only the very old mail programs do not adapt to all character > sets? > > > > > > In a message dated 11/25/2018 6:19:52 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > > > > > > > >> On Nov 21, 2018, at 4:46 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> On 11/21/18 5:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> Ed, > >>> It is YOUR mail program that is doing the extraneous insertions, and > >>> then not showing them to you when you view your own messages. > >>> > >>> ALL of us see either extraneous characters, or extraneous spaces in > >>> everything that you send! > >>> I use PINE in a shell account, and they show up as a whole bunch of > >>> inappropriate spaces. > >>> > >>> Seriously, YOUR mail program is inserting extraneous stuff. > >>> Everybody? but you sees it. > >>> > >> > >> I don't. I didn't see it until someone replied with a > >> > >> copy of the offending text included. > >> > >> > >> bill > >> > > same here. i didnt see them until some replies included the text. > > > > kelly > > > > From spc at conman.org Sun Nov 25 17:44:26 2018 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 18:44:26 -0500 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181123125210.GA32473@mooli.org.uk> <4cdae5fc-899c-3c50-c01b-90f89aa78570@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <20181125234426.GZ12071@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Bill Gunshannon via cctalk once stated: > > On 11/25/18 5:42 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/23/18 5:52 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > >> Worse than that, it's *American* ignorance and cultural snobbery > >> which also affects various English-speaking countries. > > > > Please do not ascribe such ignorance with such a broad brush, at least > > not without qualifiers that account for people that do try to respect > > other people's cultures. > > > > > Q.? What do you call someone who speaks three languages? > > A. Trilingual. > > Q.? What do you call someone who speaks two languages? > > A. Bilingual. > > Q.? What do you call someone who speaks one language? > > A. American. As an American, a friend of mine from Sweden (who himself speaks at least three languages) considered me multilingual. Of course, my other languages are BASIC, Assembly, C, Forth ... I even heard of a high school in Tennessee who said computer languages fulfill the "foreign language requirements" ... who'da thunk? > OK, it's a joke. (I'm American and speak 4 languages.) -spc (Who speaks English and perhaps a dozen words in German, but plenty of computer languages ... ) From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Nov 25 17:47:41 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 16:47:41 -0700 Subject: e-mail, character sets, encodings (was Re: George Keremedjiev) In-Reply-To: References: <1674c03244a-1ec4-1c2b@webjas-vaa145.srv.aolmail.net> <2794AC7E-D6C4-4C1D-A554-A547CF2D650C@reanimators.org> Message-ID: <01b77b0e-c042-fa41-6e90-ed5a96f3fe21@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/25/18 4:32 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Most mail servers sending inbound messages to the list include the > encoding scheme in the header. The mailer program should process > and translate the email message body accordingly...in theory anyway. Most email handling programs don't need to bother with what the data is, as they just move the data. This largely includes email list managers. This really only becomes a concern if something is modifying part of the message (data) as it moves through the system. > The set up and testing of a sampling of encoding variations would reveal > which interpreters were missing in our particular list's relay process. cctalk is using Mailman, and I'm fairly sure that Mailman does handle this properly. Or if there is a bug it has likely been found & resolved. In the event that a bug is found, I think that it would be best to report it upstream to Mailman so they can fix it, and then install the updates when they are released. > Someone could create tests with the most common 20 or so encoding schemes > and a character set dump and document the results etc. Anyone have the > time for that? I doubt that this is necessary. Based on what I've seen, Mailman is handling the message (data) just fine. It's passing the Ed's messages with the UTF-8 =C2=A0 (quoted-printable) encoded parts just fine. > I dont really think asking persons to fix their email program is > the solution I agree that it's asking an end user to fix their email client is the most viable solution. > it's a mailing list fix/enhancement. I disagree. I'm not convinced that this is a problem in email. I question how many people are seeing the symptoms -and- what email client they are using. If someone knowingly chooses to use an email client that doesn't support UTF-8, then ?\_(?)_/? That's their choice. I just hope that they are informed in their choice. > I bet there is documentation on such a procedure I can't imagine we are > the first to encounter this problem. It's fixable If you really do think that this is a problem with the mailing list, I'd suggest bringing the problem up on the Mailman mailing list. Mark S. is very responsive and can help people fix problems / configurations in short order. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Nov 25 17:51:08 2018 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 15:51:08 -0800 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <20181125234426.GZ12071@brevard.conman.org> References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181123125210.GA32473@mooli.org.uk> <4cdae5fc-899c-3c50-c01b-90f89aa78570@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20181125234426.GZ12071@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Nov 25, 2018, at 15:44, Sean Conner wrote: > I even heard of a high school in Tennessee who said computer languages > fulfill the "foreign language requirements" ... who'da thunk? I have been told that in the 1960s taking a course in FORTRAN programming fulfilled the foreign language requirement at UC Berkeley. -Frank McConnell From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Nov 25 18:00:11 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 19:00:11 -0500 Subject: e-mail, character sets, encodings (was Re: George Keremedjiev) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1674d50f3d3-1ec0-5290@webjas-vad215.srv.aolmail.net> Hi? Frank? and? others- Yea it? is? only here? ?we? have? the? problem. or? at leased this is the only? list? serve that? does not? like? it. ? I? wondered if? something? could be handled at the listserv? end? or? not? but I have littleknowledge of list serves alas... ? Sad? when people? ?spent? more? ?time? on characters? rather than? George the? ?museum archivist that passed away.? ? George? worked his? ass off to achieve what? he? did. ? Google him? and? read? about? his? early days. You will be? surprised and? you might? ?find yourself? thankful? for? how easy? you? had? it.? ? I did not? know? him? all that? well? but?I did? provide his? PDP-8? classic? with the? plexis? when He was? first starting up It? was a? beauty and in the 200 serial number? range as? I? remember. We kept? #18 classic? Plexi for? SMECC ? I? had? not? planned on selling it? as? ?always? handy to have a? #2? for an offsite display and you do not have to disturb the in-house? display but George seems? so? focused and? intense on? making a? museum? too? so? who? could? say no to that? I? wish I? had.? traveled to? see his? effort? up? close.? ? Project this? week is? to? find? someone? one? with a UNIVAC? 422 or? ?the predecessor? UNIVAC Digital trainer.? I can NOT BELIEVE I am fortunate enough? to be the only one? ?with a UNIVAC? 422' ? That is all for now...? I? think? I? hear? ?a half of? turkey and leftover dressing in the refrig? wailing to? be consumed. ? Ed#? www.smecc.org? ? ? ? In a message dated 11/25/2018 4:32:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Most mail servers sending inbound messages to the list include the encoding scheme in the header. The mailer program should process and translate the email message body accordingly...in theory anyway. The set up and testing of a sampling of encoding variations would reveal which interpreters were missing in our particular list's relay process. Someone could create tests with the most common 20 or so encoding schemes and a character set dump and document the results etc. Anyone have the time for that? I dont really think asking persons to fix their email program is the solution, it's a mailing list fix/enhancement. I bet there is documentation on such a procedure I can't imagine we are the first to encounter this problem. It's fixable B On Sun, Nov 25, 2018, 3:24 PM Frank McConnell via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > Very old mail programs indeed have no understanding whatsoever of > character sets or encoding. They simply display data from the e-mail file > on stdout or equivalent. If you are lucky, the character set and encoding > in the e-mail match the character set and encoding used by your terminal. > > The early-to-mid-1990s MIME work was in some part about allowing e-mail to > indicate its character set and encoding, because at that point in time > there were many character sets and multiple encodings. Before that, you > had to figure them out from your correspondent's e-mail address and the > mess on your screen or printout. > > And really it's not just about the mail program, it's about the host > operating system and the hardware on which it runs and which you are using > to view e-mail. Heavy-metal characters are likely to look funny on a > terminal built to display US-ASCII like an HP 2645. Your chances get > better if the software has enough understanding of various Roman-language > text encodings and you are using an HP 2622 with HP-ROMAN8 character > support and the connection between your host and terminal is > eight-bit-clean. But then you get something that uses Cyrillic and now > you're looking at having another HP 2645 set up to do Russian. And hoping > your host software knows how to deal with those character sets and > encodings too! > > -Frank McConnell > > On Nov 25, 2018, at 9:55, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > > > seems only the very old mail programs do not adapt to all character > sets? > > > > > > In a message dated 11/25/2018 6:19:52 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > > > > > > > >> On Nov 21, 2018, at 4:46 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> On 11/21/18 5:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> Ed, > >>> It is YOUR mail program that is doing the extraneous insertions, and > >>> then not showing them to you when you view your own messages. > >>> > >>> ALL of us see either extraneous characters, or extraneous spaces in > >>> everything that you send! > >>> I use PINE in a shell account, and they show up as a whole bunch of > >>> inappropriate spaces. > >>> > >>> Seriously, YOUR mail program is inserting extraneous stuff. > >>> Everybody? but you sees it. > >>> > >> > >> I don't. I didn't see it until someone replied with a > >> > >> copy of the offending text included. > >> > >> > >> bill > >> > > same here. i didnt see them until some replies included the text. > > > > kelly > > > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Nov 25 18:00:27 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 17:00:27 -0700 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <7db8b9e8-86c9-0050-6cd6-c8881991729c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <7423894e-6060-adb7-26cb-da407386272e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/25/18 3:53 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > It's been enlightening! :-) > Some I was ready for. > > E.g. In French or Spanish, both of which I can speak to some extent, > letters like ? or ? are not seen as separate letters: French would call > them a-acute, an a with an acute accent. ? is a c with a cedilla. Etc. If they are not seen as separate letters, then do their meaning's change? Or is the different accent more for pronunciation? > But in Swedish/Norwegian/Danish -- I speak basic Norwegian and rudimentary > Swedish -- ? and ? and ? and so on are not a or o with accents on: > they are _different letters_ that come at the end of the alphabet. I assume that they have different meanings (if that applies to letters) and are uses as different as "A" and "q". > Czech is like that. ? and ? and ? and many more that my Mac can't > readily type are _extra letters_ which come after the unmodified form > in the alphabet. ~twitch~ I don't even know how to properly describe something that visually looks like letters (glyphs?) to me, but may be an imprecise simplification on my part. > Without them, you can't write correct Czech. It's worse than writing > English without the letter E. > > Usually you can guess but not always. > > Byt means flat, apartment; b y-acute t means the verb "to be". > > You can probably work that out, but you can't always. A restaurant > menu would be hopelessly corrupted as both "raw" and "with cheese" > are quite likely. Indeed. > Sure, my office street name: K?i??kova > > K, r ha?ek, i, z ha?ek, i acute, k o v a. I had to zoom my font to see enough detail in K?i??kova, but it does look like things came through just like you describe. (They even made it through my shell script that I use to re-flow text in replies.) > A hacek is like an upside down circumflex: ^ > > Also known as a caron. ACK > Oh yes. It's quite a minefield. /me blinks and shakes his head. > Czech keyboards have so many extra letters, the *numbers* are on shift > combinations! ~chuckle~ > Well yes. > > I believe Mr Corlett here rejects all mail from gmail.com -- except > mine... ;-) ?\_(?)_/? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From shadoooo at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 18:02:47 2018 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 01:02:47 +0100 Subject: DEC Professional 350 ROMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, this is what I found: These ROMS can be read on an EPROM programmer as an MC68766 part, as long as the programer strobes CS or OE when reading each consecutive address. Most will do that. They can be directly replaced with pin-compatible EPROM MC68766 or MCM68766C35 but these are obsolete though easily available as surplus parts for about 10 dollars each. The SCM90448C might also be a direct replacement. Modern EPROM 27HC641 aka M27HC641 can be used and is pin compatible, as long as you cook the data before burning, because A10 and A12 (if I remember correctly) are swapped. Hope this helps. Andrea From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 25 18:27:29 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 16:27:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <7db8b9e8-86c9-0050-6cd6-c8881991729c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <02c64a93-2493-17ae-f8d9-006793b13163@sydex.com> Message-ID: We have a tendency to be remarkably ethnocentric. When you apply for a job, do you send them a copy of your RESUME? There is an exit on 280 for "La Canada" road. For most European languages (I did say MOST), an 8 bit extended ASCII could be adequate. "Recently" (1981), I was disappointed in IBM's character extensions for the 5150. We got smiley faces, but not even pound-sterling nor Yen! 16 bits would presumably be adequate for designing a character set for most phonetic alphabets. (I did say MOST). When I got my Epson HC-20's (like the HX-20, but including Katakana), and my Epson RC-20 (wristwatch, Z80 like, with RAM, ROM, and serial port) I started to try to learn a little Japanese. I didn't get very far, but I did at least learn the sounds of Katakana, and could sound out words written in it (a LOT of computer materials use Katakana for non-Japanese words, such as "monitor") But, full inclusion of pictographic languages (Kanji, etc.) would require more than 16 bits. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Nov 25 18:45:59 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 00:45:59 +0000 Subject: e-mail, character sets, encodings (was Re: George Keremedjiev) In-Reply-To: <1674d50f3d3-1ec0-5290@webjas-vad215.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1674d50f3d3-1ec0-5290@webjas-vad215.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: It's not a mailing list problem.? It's not even a mail problem. It's a Mail User Agent problem.? It is a display problem.? It is up to the users mail program to display the email as it was sent.? Unless the user doesn't want to see anything in character sets other than their favorite.? Nothing along the way should change anything in an email message.? The endpoint should receive whatever the beginning point sent out and either handle it or not.? But it is the endpoints responsibility to try to display it accurately.? I often send emails (and post on USENET) characters that are not a part of ASCII or the English alphabet.? I certainly don't want someone in between to modify what I send. bill On 11/25/18 7:00 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Hi? Frank? and? others- > Yea it? is? only here? ?we? have? the? problem. or? at leased this is the only? list? serve that? does not? like? it. > > I? wondered if? something? could be handled at the listserv? end? or? not? but I have littleknowledge of list serves alas... > > Sad? when people? ?spent? more? ?time? on characters? rather than? George the? ?museum archivist that passed away. > > > George? worked his? ass off to achieve what? he? did. > > Google him? and? read? about? his? early days. You will be? surprised and? you might? ?find yourself? thankful? for? how easy? you? had? it. > > I did not? know? him? all that? well? but?I did? provide his? PDP-8? classic? with the? plexis? when He was? first starting up It? was a? beauty and in the 200 serial number? range as? I? remember. We kept? #18 classic? Plexi for? SMECC > > I? had? not? planned on selling it? as? ?always? handy to have a? #2? for an offsite display and you do not have to disturb the in-house? display but George seems? so? focused and? intense on? making a? museum? too? so? who? could? say no to that? I? wish I? had.? traveled to? see his? effort? up? close. > > Project this? week is? to? find? someone? one? with a UNIVAC? 422 or? ?the predecessor? UNIVAC Digital trainer.? I can NOT BELIEVE I am fortunate enough? to be the only one? ?with a UNIVAC? 422' > > That is all for now...? I? think? I? hear? ?a half of? turkey and leftover dressing in the refrig? wailing to? be consumed. > > Ed#? www.smecc.org > > > > In a message dated 11/25/2018 4:32:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > Most mail servers sending inbound messages to the list include the encoding > > scheme in the header. The mailer program should process and translate the > email message body accordingly...in theory anyway. The set up and testing > of a sampling of encoding variations would reveal which interpreters were > missing in our particular list's relay process. Someone could create tests > with the most common 20 or so encoding schemes and a character set dump and > document the results etc. Anyone have the time for that? I dont really > think asking persons to fix their email program is the solution, it's a > mailing list fix/enhancement. I bet there is documentation on such a > procedure I can't imagine we are the first to encounter this problem. It's > fixable > B > > On Sun, Nov 25, 2018, 3:24 PM Frank McConnell via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> Very old mail programs indeed have no understanding whatsoever of >> character sets or encoding. They simply display data from the e-mail file >> on stdout or equivalent. If you are lucky, the character set and encoding >> in the e-mail match the character set and encoding used by your terminal. >> >> The early-to-mid-1990s MIME work was in some part about allowing e-mail to >> indicate its character set and encoding, because at that point in time >> there were many character sets and multiple encodings. Before that, you >> had to figure them out from your correspondent's e-mail address and the >> mess on your screen or printout. >> >> And really it's not just about the mail program, it's about the host >> operating system and the hardware on which it runs and which you are using >> to view e-mail. Heavy-metal characters are likely to look funny on a >> terminal built to display US-ASCII like an HP 2645. Your chances get >> better if the software has enough understanding of various Roman-language >> text encodings and you are using an HP 2622 with HP-ROMAN8 character >> support and the connection between your host and terminal is >> eight-bit-clean. But then you get something that uses Cyrillic and now >> you're looking at having another HP 2645 set up to do Russian. And hoping >> your host software knows how to deal with those character sets and >> encodings too! >> >> -Frank McConnell >> >> On Nov 25, 2018, at 9:55, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >>> seems only the very old mail programs do not adapt to all character >> sets? >>> >>> In a message dated 11/25/2018 6:19:52 AM US Mountain Standard Time, >> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 21, 2018, at 4:46 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 11/21/18 5:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Ed, >>>>> It is YOUR mail program that is doing the extraneous insertions, and >>>>> then not showing them to you when you view your own messages. >>>>> >>>>> ALL of us see either extraneous characters, or extraneous spaces in >>>>> everything that you send! >>>>> I use PINE in a shell account, and they show up as a whole bunch of >>>>> inappropriate spaces. >>>>> >>>>> Seriously, YOUR mail program is inserting extraneous stuff. >>>>> Everybody? but you sees it. >>>>> >>>> I don't. I didn't see it until someone replied with a >>>> >>>> copy of the offending text included. >>>> >>>> >>>> bill >>>> >>> same here. i didnt see them until some replies included the text. >>> >>> kelly >>> >> From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 25 18:46:50 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 16:46:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181123125210.GA32473@mooli.org.uk> <4cdae5fc-899c-3c50-c01b-90f89aa78570@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20181125234426.GZ12071@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: > I have been told that in the 1960s taking a course in FORTRAN > programming fulfilled the foreign language requirement at UC Berkeley. Not currently, and I have some doubt about then. But, there are conflicting staatements. One section requires that it be a MODERN language, but with specific exceptions for ASL and "classical languages, such as Latin and Greek". Is FORTRAN considered modern enough? There are still MANY schools arguing about whether to accept ASL (American Sign Language, as used by Deaf people). I would think that therefore, BSL (British Sign Language) should qualify. What about APL? Although its structure is fairly straight-forward, it does, indeed, have a unique character set. From rtomek at ceti.pl Sun Nov 25 19:02:45 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 02:02:45 +0100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181123125210.GA32473@mooli.org.uk> <4cdae5fc-899c-3c50-c01b-90f89aa78570@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20181125234426.GZ12071@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20181126010245.GC28507@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 04:46:50PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: [...] > Is FORTRAN considered modern enough? [...] > What about APL? Although its structure is fairly straight-forward, > it does, indeed, have a unique character set. To supply this train of thought with some numbers: - my copy of Common Lisp HyperSpec claims 978 symbols (i.e. words) on its alphabetical index; many words have modifiers (a.k.a. keyword options, with default values) which increases the number at least twofold, IMHO, if one agrees that each combo should be counted as different word, to which I would say yes - I have read somewhere that Japanese pupil after graduating from elementary school is supposed to know 1000 kanjis by heart (there is a standardised set, I have a book) -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 25 19:34:36 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 17:34:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <20181126010245.GC28507@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181123125210.GA32473@mooli.org.uk> <4cdae5fc-899c-3c50-c01b-90f89aa78570@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20181125234426.GZ12071@brevard.conman.org> <20181126010245.GC28507@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > To supply this train of thought with some numbers: > > - my copy of Common Lisp HyperSpec claims 978 symbols (i.e. words) on > its alphabetical index; many words have modifiers (a.k.a. keyword > options, with default values) which increases the number at least > twofold, IMHO, if one agrees that each combo should be counted as > different word, to which I would say yes > > - I have read somewhere that Japanese pupil after graduating from > elementary school is supposed to know 1000 kanjis by heart (there > is a standardised set, I have a book) Would those "modifiers of words" qualify as ADJECTIVES? The Japanes phonetic alphabets, Katakana and Hirigana, have 46 letters each, almost twice that with diacritics. I have heard that Japanese Kanji has more than 50,000 words/characters (for which 16bits would fit, but be a little risky). But, that in common usage, 1100 to 2000 words comprise most of common usage. Wikipedia says that as of 2010, the student requirement is 2136. Japanese Kanji and Chinese have substantial overlap, but there is no way that you could squeeze both into 16 bits, without leaving out important stuff. Therefore, for use with current computers, 32 bits would be needed. Some games can be played with mixing sizes by doing things like setting high bit, for 128 7 bit characters plus 32768 15 bit characters, and 2147483648 31 bit characters. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Nov 25 19:49:31 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 20:49:31 -0500 Subject: e-mail, character sets, encodings (was Re: George Keremedjiev) In-Reply-To: References: <1674d50f3d3-1ec0-5290@webjas-vad215.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On 2018-11-25 7:45 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > It's not a mailing list problem.? It's not even a mail problem. It's a > > Mail User Agent problem.? It is a display problem.? It is up to the > > users mail program to display the email as it was sent.? Unless the > Did you really double space this email like a high school essay? Don't see that every day. --T From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Nov 25 19:55:11 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 20:55:11 -0500 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1674dba424c-1ec3-549b@webjas-vad199.srv.aolmail.net> ASL is? ?quite? different than? English... you can sign in English or? you can sign in ASL? The? ASL? has a different sentence structure. When I? was? first learning? about? the? Deaf Teletype? revolution? (We have a collection of? a diverse group of? TTY both? mechanical and? CRT and portable? and ...? I would? correspond? via? email? with a young? person that? sold? us? ?some ttys? and wondered? why it? was almost? a different? sentence? structure, almost? like? Yoda? but? if? you? look at? both closely? not? really? the? exact? same.? Hard? to? explain... but? English and ASL? utilize? 2? different? ?Sentence structuring ... or? so it? appears? to me. ? If? you? learn? ASL and Signing? well there is a? good need? for? excellent interpreters out there. ? And? yes,? always? looking for? ANYTHING? related to the? history of? TTY? and other? assertive? communications? devices. ? Ed# ? ? In a message dated 11/25/2018 5:46:55 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? There are still MANY schools arguing about whether to accept ASL (American Sign Language, as used by Deaf people). I would think that therefore, BSL (British Sign Language) should qualify From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 25 20:07:35 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 19:07:35 -0700 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181123125210.GA32473@mooli.org.uk> <4cdae5fc-899c-3c50-c01b-90f89aa78570@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20181125234426.GZ12071@brevard.conman.org> <20181126010245.GC28507@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <1b1ad696-5245-da67-0bff-bde740c48a0e@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/25/2018 6:34 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: >> To supply this train of thought with some numbers: >> >> - my copy of Common Lisp HyperSpec claims 978 symbols (i.e. words) on >> ? its alphabetical index; many words have modifiers (a.k.a. keyword >> ? options, with default values) which increases the number at least >> ? twofold, IMHO, if one agrees that each combo should be counted as >> ? different word, to which I would say yes >> >> - I have read somewhere that Japanese pupil after graduating from >> ? elementary school is supposed to know 1000 kanjis by heart (there >> ? is a standardised set, I have a book) > > Would those "modifiers of words" qualify as ADJECTIVES? > > > The Japanes phonetic alphabets, Katakana and Hirigana, have 46 letters > each, almost twice that with diacritics. > I have heard that Japanese Kanji has more than 50,000 words/characters > (for which 16bits would fit, but be a little risky).? But, that in > common usage, 1100 to 2000 words comprise most of common usage. > Wikipedia says that as of 2010, the student requirement is 2136. > > Japanese Kanji and Chinese have substantial overlap, but there is no way > that you could squeeze both into 16 bits, without leaving out important > stuff. > > Therefore, for use with current computers, 32 bits would be needed. > Some games can be played with mixing sizes by doing things like setting > high bit, for 128 7 bit characters plus 32768 15 bit characters, and > 2147483648 31 bit characters. > > REAL COMPUTERS USE 18 BITS... RUNS BEN. From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 20:32:44 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 20:32:44 -0600 Subject: SPARCstation 20 with SCSI2SD Message-ID: Firstly, my goal: to run MazeWar on something other than a NeXT. I thought this would be fairly straightforward, starting with getting SunOS 4.1.3 booting with QEMU. Turns out, I've not had much luck. I get different error messages depending on what machine type I'm emulating. I can start booting from the .iso running this command: $ qemu-system-sparc -bios ss5.bin -M SS-5 -m 64M -drive file=sunos413.img,if=scsi,bus=0,unit=3,media=disk -drive file=SunOS_4.1.3_sparc.iso,format=raw,if=scsi,bus=0,unit=6,media=cdrom,readonly=on -boot d and get a near immediate panic: machine type 0x80 in NVRAM panic: No known machine types configured in! Data Access Exception ok Okay, how about trying the default BIOS and SS-20? It definitely gets further, but no dice... Boot: vmunix Size: 843776+2315672+64016 bytes SuperSPARC/SuperCache: PAC ENABLED SunOS Release 4.1.3 (MUNIX) #3: Mon Jul 27 16:47:33 PDT 1992 Copyright (c) 1983-1992, Sun Microsystems, Inc. cpu = SUNW,SPARCstation-20 mod0 = TI,TMS390Z55 (mid = 8) mem = 49020K (0x2fdf000) avail mem = 44707840 Ethernet address = 52:54:0:12:34:56 espdma0 at SBus slot f 0x400000 esp0 at SBus slot f 0x800000 pri 4 (onboard) sd2: non-CCS device found at target 2 lun 0 on esp0 sd2 at esp0 target 2 lun 0 sd2: sd2: Vendor 'QEMU', product 'QEMU', (unknown capacity) sd3: non-CCS device found at target 0 lun 0 on esp0 sd3 at esp0 target 0 lun 0 sd3: corrupt label - wrong magic number sd3: Vendor 'QEMU', product 'QEMU', (unknown capacity) ledma0 at SBus slot f 0x400010 le0 at SBus slot f 0xc00000 pri 6 (onboard) zs0 at obio 0x100000 pri 12 (onboard) zs1 at obio 0x0 pri 12 (onboard) SUNW,fdtwo0 at obio 0x700000 pri 11 (onboard) BAD TRAP: cpu=0 type=29 rp=f00daba4 addr=0 mmu_fsr=0 rw=0 MMU sfsr=0: No Error regs at f00daba4: psr=40400cc7 pc=f00a0968 npc=f00a096c y: 20000 g1: f00c1e78 g2: 40900ce6 g3: fb005ff0 g4: 2c g5: f00db000 g6: 0 g7: 30000000 o0: 1 o1: 8 o2: f00dac00 o3: f0076e50 o4: 0 o5: 0 sp: f00dabf0 ra: f1000000 (unknown): bad trap = 41 rp=0xf00daba4, pc=0xf00a0968, sp=0xf00dabf0, psr=0x40400cc7, context=0x0 g1-g7: f00c1e78, 40900ce6, fb005ff0, 2c, f00db000, 0, 30000000 Begin traceback... sp = f00dabf0 Called from f00c1eb8, fp=f00dac58, args=ff009000 f00dacbc 0 f0314a70 1000 1000 Called from f00a7d34, fp=f00dacc0, args=ff009000 0 ff009000 fb002098 f0314a70 ff009000 Called from f00a7708, fp=f00dad20, args=1080000 d f0102d50 f0102db3 0 2 Called from f00a74e0, fp=f00dad80, args=f0305bd4 f0102d50 fb001000 fb001050 0 0 Called from f00a5028, fp=f00dade0, args=f00fc000 fefe0014 0 0 f0102d50 f0305bd4 Called from f00ac084, fp=f00dae40, args=72 1000 1 1 86 800000 Called from f0015f7c, fp=f00daef8, args=800000 100000 fb000000 2fdd 2000 2 Called from f000539c, fp=f00daf58, args=f00dafb4 f00076c0 10801522 821020ff 200 f00ce600 Called from 403f0c, fp=0, args=4000 3ffd60 1 235598 4000 0 End traceback... panic: trap rebooting... Then I thought, why not use The Machine Emulator to emulate a Sun 3 and play with something even older? I can't get that to build using clang under OS X 10.9. I've changed a few lines of source already to get it further along in the compilation process, but now I'm stuck: In file included from module.c:48:0: module.c: In function 'tme_module_init': module.c:93:3: error: 'lt_preloaded_symbols' undeclared (first use in this function); did you mean 'lt_dlloader_remove'? LTDL_SET_PRELOADED_SYMBOLS(); ^ Okay, now I'm tired of trying to emulate it (actually, I still would like to play with QEMU or TME...), so I pulled a SS-20 off the shelf and threw a SCSI2SD card in it. I didn't have a means of burning a CD, so I used the SCSI2SD to also emulate a CDROM drive at device 6, and unplugged the existing CDROM drive. I can boot off of it just fine, and I get now even further along the process of installation, and am able to format the hard drive. Right when I think things are going well, I get this: esp0: Target 6.0 reverting to async. mode sr0: SCSI transport failed: reason 'data_ovr': giving up m partition number 3 fastread: can't read label on /dev/rsr0:I/O error ERROR while loading miniroot disk: /dev/rsd0b # Any ideas? Thanks, Kyle From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 20:46:19 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 20:46:19 -0600 Subject: SPARCstation 20 with SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, got the last problem solved rather quickly: I tried using 512 byte sectors for the emulated CDROM instead of SCSI2SD's default of 2048 for a CDROM, and that did the trick. Working my way through the SunOS 4.1.3 installation process now on the SS-20. > If anyone has some advice on how to get QEMU or TME working, I'd still be all ears. Thanks, Kyle From ethan at 757.org Sun Nov 25 21:14:35 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 22:14:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: SPARCstation 20 with SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Well, got the last problem solved rather quickly: I tried using 512 byte > sectors for the emulated CDROM instead of SCSI2SD's default of 2048 for a > CDROM, and that did the trick. Working my way through the SunOS 4.1.3 > installation process now on the SS-20. Was just thinking the 512 byte thing might be an issue. Early Toshiba Cd-ROMs had a solder jumper that would switch this, and is was needed for some early systems. SGI Indigo R3000 and below was one, and I guess Sun was another. I think NeXT also requires the 512 byte block CD-ROM. Since you said QEMU, you are emulating this? If on the real hardware, is the NVRAM memory dead? Looks like it doesn't know what kind of hardware it is. Real hardware will loose nvram battery and need to be replaced and reprogrammed, or you can file it down and jumper a battery into it. There is also probably a bunch of environment variables in the NVRAM as to the CD-ROM SCSI path and OS scsi path and stuff on the Sun. It's been a long time since Sun boxes for me, so unfortuantely I've forgotten a lot of it. But if it's all reset or non-existant it could be a source of issues if my memory is right (It definitely is on SGI hardware.) -- : Ethan O'Toole From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 21:39:24 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 21:39:24 -0600 Subject: SPARCstation 20 with SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 9:14 PM wrote: > Since you said QEMU, you are emulating this? If on the real hardware, is > the NVRAM memory dead? Looks like it doesn't know what kind of hardware it > is. Real hardware will loose nvram battery and need to be replaced and > reprogrammed, or you can file it down and jumper a battery into it. > I was hoping to just emulate it for now to avoid potentially bad hardware, but seems like I need to use the real hardware to avoid potentially bad software! :) The NVRAM is totally dead; I've been reloading the IDPROM contents each time. I've already ordered replacement NVRAMs from China; we'll see how they do. Otherwise, I'll be going with the filing/coin cell trick. There is also probably a bunch of environment variables in the NVRAM as to > the CD-ROM SCSI path and OS scsi path and stuff on the Sun. It's been a > long time since Sun boxes for me, so unfortuantely I've forgotten a lot of > it. But if it's all reset or non-existant it could be a source of issues > if my memory is right (It definitely is on SGI hardware.) > Not sure; but, I can say, I've got SunOS 4.1.3 finally installed, and am now looking at a sparse SunView desktop. Trying to build MazeWar results in: ld: Undefined symbol ___bb_init_func DREG_SEG *** Error code 2 Not sure yet what to look for, but the source does say it was tested on SunOS 3.1 and 3.4. So, I am trying to compile it on something a bit later. Thanks, Kyle From ethan at 757.org Sun Nov 25 21:49:59 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 22:49:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: SPARCstation 20 with SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I was hoping to just emulate it for now to avoid potentially bad hardware, > but seems like I need to use the real hardware to avoid potentially bad > software! :) Ah cool. I was at a friend's brother's house on a work trip out to Silicon Valley. One of his friends was there, with something amazing running in QEMU. It was a work in progress, but he said that there were a lot of issues because QEMU was too accurate in emulating the MIPS procressors and in addition to this, there was bugs in his former employer's hardware that had software work-arounds in the real OS. So when trying to run that OS on the emulated system the accuracy worked against him. > The NVRAM is totally dead; I've been reloading the IDPROM contents each > time. I've already ordered replacement NVRAMs from China; we'll see how > they do. Otherwise, I'll be going with the filing/coin cell trick. Interesting. Are they no longer made? I should get one for my Voyager. > Not sure; but, I can say, I've got SunOS 4.1.3 finally installed, and am > now looking at a sparse SunView desktop. Very cool > Trying to build MazeWar results in: > > ld: Undefined symbol > ___bb_init_func > DREG_SEG > *** Error code 2 > > Not sure yet what to look for, but the source does say it was tested on > SunOS 3.1 and 3.4. So, I am trying to compile it on something a bit later. Sun compiler I assume and not a GCC? -- : Ethan O'Toole From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 25 21:59:13 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 19:59:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <1b1ad696-5245-da67-0bff-bde740c48a0e@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20181123125210.GA32473@mooli.org.uk> <4cdae5fc-899c-3c50-c01b-90f89aa78570@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20181125234426.GZ12071@brevard.conman.org> <20181126010245.GC28507@tau1.ceti.pl> <1b1ad696-5245-da67-0bff-bde740c48a0e@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >> Therefore, for use with current computers, 32 bits would be needed. >> Some games can be played with mixing sizes by doing things like setting >> high bit, for 128 7 bit characters plus 32768 15 bit characters, and >> 2147483648 31 bit characters. On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: > REAL COMPUTERS USE 18 BITS... RUNS > BEN. Alas, "current" computers use 8, 16, 32. They totally fail to understand the intrinsic benefits of 9, 12, 18, 24, and 36 bits. From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun Nov 25 22:30:07 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 20:30:07 -0800 Subject: SPARCstation 20 with SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10fbfaee-01f4-301a-0868-47eed26c7f03@snowmoose.com> On 11/25/18 7:49 PM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: > > >> The NVRAM is totally dead; I've been reloading the IDPROM contents each >> time. I've already ordered replacement NVRAMs from China; we'll see how >> they do. Otherwise, I'll be going with the filing/coin cell trick. > > Interesting. Are they no longer made? I should get one for my Voyager. > They are still made. I usually get M48T08s or M48T18s from Mouser. In the long run, it is probably a good idea to mod the IDPROM to use an external, replaceable battery, Glitch Works makes a board that one can solder on to do that (https://www.tindie.com/products/glitchwrks/gw-48t08-1-repair-board-module/). alan From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Nov 25 23:52:18 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 22:52:18 -0700 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: Not to beat a dead horse, but I ran across "? ? ? " in a text file when read via a web browser this evening and wanted to share my findings as they seemed timely. On 11/22/18 5:55 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > Anyway, I was wondering how Ed's emails (and sometimes others elsewhere) > acquired that odd corruption. IMHO it's not corruption as much as it is incompatibility. > Answer: Ed's email util ? interpret the user typing space twice in > succession, as meaning "I really, really want there to be a space here, > no matter what." So it inserts a 'no-break space' unicode character, > which of course requires a 2-byte UTF-8 encoding. What I'm not sure of is how the 0xC2 0xA0 translates to 0xC3 0xA2 that is the ? character. I think that the 0xC2 0xA0 pair is treated as two independent characters. Thus 0xC2 is "?", and 0xA0 is a non-breaking space. I don't know what happens to the non-breaking space, but the ? and the space (0x20) that is after 0xC2 0xA0 (three byte sequence being 0xC2 0xA0 0x20) is included and becomes "? " which is what we see in reply text. (Encoded as 0xC3 0x83 0x20.) So, arguably, improperly processed / translated text that results in 0xC3 0x83 0x20 / "? " should have been a non-breaking space followed by a space. This jives with both Ed's email and the document that I was reading that prompted this email. > Then adds a plain ASCII space 0x20 just to be sure. I don't think it's adding a plain ASCII space 0x20 just to be sure. Looking at the source of the message, I see =C2=A0, which is the UTF-8 representation followed by the space. My MUA that understands UTF-8 shows that "=C2=A0 " translates to " ". Further, "=C2=A0 =C2=A0" translates to " ". Some of the reading that I did indicates that many things, HTML included, use white space compaction (by default), which means that multiple white space characters are reduced to a single white space character. So, when Ed wants multiple white spaces, his MUA has to do something to state that two consecutive spaces can't be compacted. Hence the non-breaking space. =C2=A0 quite literally translates to a space character that can't be compacted. Thus "=C2=A0 =C2=A0" is really " " or " ". Multiple successive spaces will need to be a mixture of space and non-breaking space characters. So, the plain ASCII space 0x20 after (or before) =C2=A0 is not there just to be sure. > Personally I find it more interesting than annoying. Just another example > of the gradual chaotic devolution of ASCII, into a Babel of incompatible > encodings. Not that ASCII was all that great in the first place. As stated in another reply, I don't think ASCII was ever trying to be the Babel fish. (Thank you Douglas Adams.) > Takeaway: Ed, one space is enough. I don't know how you got the idea > people might miss seeing a single space, and so you need to type two or > more. I wondered if it wasn't a typo or keyboard sensitivity issue. I remember I had to really slow down the double click speed for my grandpa (R.I.P.) so that he could use the mouse. Maybe some users actuate keys slowly enough that the computer thinks that it's repeated keys. ?\_(?)_/? > But it isn't so. The normal convention in plain text is one space > character between each word. The operative word is "convention", as in commonly accepted but not always the case behavior. ;-) > And since plain ASCII is hard-formatted, extra spaces are NOT ignored > and make for wider spacing between words. It seems as if you made an assumption. Just because the underlying character set is ASCII (per RFC 821 & 822, et al) does not mean that the data that they are carrying is also ASCII. As is evident by the Content-Type: header stating the character set of UTF-8. Especially when textual white space compression does exactly that, ignore extra white spaces. > Which looks very odd, even if your mail utility didn't try to > do something 'special' with your unusual user input. I frequently use multiple spaces with ASCII diagrams. +------+ | This | | is | | a | | box | +------+ That will not look like I intended it with white space compression. > Btw, I changed the subject line, because this is a wider topic. I've been > meaning to start a conversation about the original evolution of ASCII, > and various extensions. Related to a side project of mine. I'm curious to know more about your side project. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at snarc.net Sun Nov 25 21:45:20 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 22:45:20 -0500 Subject: Bill Godbout R.I.P. In-Reply-To: References: <0ed899d4-8e4b-c226-a799-c0ec3199f5fd@sydex.com> Message-ID: The fundraiser for the Godbout family is stuck at $6,211 for the past couple of days. Maybe cctalk'ers can give it a jump-start. https://www.gofundme.com/godbouttuckcampfirerelieffund From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 02:44:38 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 09:44:38 +0100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <7423894e-6060-adb7-26cb-da407386272e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <7db8b9e8-86c9-0050-6cd6-c8881991729c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <7423894e-6060-adb7-26cb-da407386272e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 at 01:00, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > If they are not seen as separate letters, then do their meaning's > change? Or is the different accent more for pronunciation? No, mainly, it changes alphabetical order and it makes asking questions tricky. I see ? as an s-with-a-ha?ek and if I forget the ha?ek, I may pronounce it as an s; ? = ``sh'' in English. ``?'' = "ch" in English. But that isn't how Czechs think. It's as impossible to misread or mispronounce ? as S as it would be a nonsense to mispronounced ``T'' as ``M'' in English, so people find it very hard to guess what I mean. To me, the diacritic modifies a letter, and in a word with 4 or 5 diacritics, they pile up in my head, I overload and may drop one or 2 of them. That renders the world as babel in Czech. (I chose T/M because, incredibly to me, hand-written T in Russian is written as M. Mind you, handwritten almost everything in Russian becomes mmmmmMmmmMmmmmMmm. I can read printed Cyrillic but I find handwritten stuff impossible.) > I assume that they have different meanings (if that applies to letters) > and are uses as different as "A" and "q". Yes. > > Czech is like that. ? and ? and ? and many more that my Mac can't > > readily type are _extra letters_ which come after the unmodified form > > in the alphabet. > > ~twitch~ Yep. The Scandinavians have just 3 extras. Czech has about a dozen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_orthography 42 letters (!). > I don't even know how to properly describe something that visually looks > like letters (glyphs?) to me, but may be an imprecise simplification on > my part. If it's in Roman, Cyrillic, or Greek, they're alphabets, so it's a letter. I can't read Arabic or Hebrew but I believe they're alphabets too. I don't know anything about any Asian scripts except a tiny bit of Japanese and Chinese, and they get called different things, but "character" is probably most common. > I had to zoom my font to see enough detail in K?i??kova, but it does > look like things came through just like you describe. (They even made > it through my shell script that I use to re-flow text in replies.) Good! -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 05:26:55 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 12:26:55 +0100 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <1674c03244a-1ec4-1c2b@webjas-vaa145.srv.aolmail.net> References: <61D1AFD5-817A-4265-89B9-59EE62840186@gmail.com> <1674c03244a-1ec4-1c2b@webjas-vaa145.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 at 12:17, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > seems only the very old mail programs do not adapt to all character sets? Maybe so, Ed, but it's basic good manners to both (a) not make your emails unnecessarily difficult for others to read, and (b) respect the etiquette of the forum that you're posting in. You do neither. So, for instance, in your message to which I am replying, you: #1 top-post, against general mailing-list etiquette #2 fail to capitalise the sentence, against basic English rules #3 insert unnecessary double-spaces into "the very", "old mail", "programs do", and "adapt to". *And* #4 _You_ appear to have some "very old mail program" (to use your own phrase) because it is screwing up your posting _and_ screwing up double spaces. So it is you causing the problems here, I'm sorry to say. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 06:04:51 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 12:04:51 -0000 Subject: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <61D1AFD5-817A-4265-89B9-59EE62840186@gmail.com> <1674c03244a-1ec4-1c2b@webjas-vaa145.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <266701d48580$3ccd1b90$b66752b0$@gmail.com> > > #4 _You_ appear to have some "very old mail program" (to use your own > phrase) because it is screwing up your posting _and_ screwing up double > spaces. > There are no "double spaces" but for some reason he has a space and a UTF-8 non-breaking space next to each other. Most odd... It looks like the mail client is the AOL webmail client. Headers say:- Message-Id: <1674dba424c-1ec3-549b at webjas-vad199.srv.aolmail.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: JAS DWEB Dave > So it is you causing the problems here, I'm sorry to say. > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Nov 26 06:28:18 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 13:28:18 +0100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <20181123125210.GA32473@mooli.org.uk> <4cdae5fc-899c-3c50-c01b-90f89aa78570@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20181125234426.GZ12071@brevard.conman.org> <20181126010245.GC28507@tau1.ceti.pl> <1b1ad696-5245-da67-0bff-bde740c48a0e@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20181126122818.GA18651@mooli.org.uk> On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 07:59:13PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: [...] > Alas, "current" computers use 8, 16, 32. They totally fail to understand the > intrinsic benefits of 9, 12, 18, 24, and 36 bits. Oh go on then, I'm curious. What are the benefits? Is it just that there are useful prime factors for bit-packing hacks? And if so, why not 30? From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Nov 26 06:45:28 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 13:45:28 +0100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <02c64a93-2493-17ae-f8d9-006793b13163@sydex.com> References: <167397afd2a-1ebd-2598@webjas-vab101.srv.aolmail.net> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <7db8b9e8-86c9-0050-6cd6-c8881991729c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <02c64a93-2493-17ae-f8d9-006793b13163@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20181126124528.GB18651@mooli.org.uk> On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 03:06:29PM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: [...] > I routinely get Turkish and Greek spam in my mailbox--and I've gotten > Cyrillic-alphabet stuff as well. I had started to get slightly paranoid about the fact that there was a sudden increase in Dutch-language spam and wondered how they had figured out my physical location. On reflection, it's probably just that I now receive enough legitimate-ish email that the Bayesian filter has adjusted and no longer assumes that the correct response to Dutch text is "dat kan niet". From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 06:50:49 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 12:50:49 -0000 Subject: DEC bits wanted Message-ID: <26dc01d48586$a8d0b8f0$fa722ad0$@gmail.com> Folks, I have a VAXStation 4000/VLC which I would like to try to use as a workstation. I have a keyboard and mouse, but can't find any connector for the video port in the UK, and the only thing I can find in the USA is this:- https://www.ebay.com/itm/232664832774 which comes in at around $100 by the time I and import charges, VAT etc and its rather more than I wanted to pay. Dave Wade G4UGM & EA7KAE From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 08:04:01 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 14:04:01 +0000 Subject: DEC bits wanted In-Reply-To: <26dc01d48586$a8d0b8f0$fa722ad0$@gmail.com> References: <26dc01d48586$a8d0b8f0$fa722ad0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 12:50 PM Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > Folks, > > > > I have a VAXStation 4000/VLC which I would like to try to use as a > workstation. I have a keyboard and mouse, but can't find any connector for > the video port in the UK, and the only thing I can find in the USA is this:- > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/232664832774 > > > > which comes in at around $100 by the time I and import charges, VAT etc and > its rather more than I wanted to pay. If you just need the connector, RS components sell it in bits (I think these are the right stock numbers, but check on the RS web site) : 484-903 or 220-0094 for the shell 311-5694 or 311-5701 for the contact depending on which gender it is. But then you need a crimp tool for the outer screen on the contact. And a contact extractor tool. Which will put the price up to several hundred pounds (I am trying to find a way round this for a connector on a piece of HP test gear). -tony From guykd at optusnet.com.au Mon Nov 26 08:21:52 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 01:21:52 +1100 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181123115518.010cf968@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181127012152.00dd6d80@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 10:52 PM 25/11/2018 -0700, you wrote: >> Then adds a plain ASCII space 0x20 just to be sure. > >I don't think it's adding a plain ASCII space 0x20 just to be sure. >Looking at the source of the message, I see =C2=A0, which is the UTF-8 >representation followed by the space. My MUA that understands UTF-8 >shows that "=C2=A0 " translates to " ". Further, "=C2=A0 =C2=A0" >translates to " ". I was speaking poetically. Perhaps "the mail software he uses was written by morons" is clearer. >Some of the reading that I did indicates that many things, HTML >included, use white space compaction (by default), which means that >multiple white space characters are reduced to a single white space >character. Oh yes, tell me about the html 'there is no such thing as hard formatting and you can't have any even when you want it' concept. Thank you Tim Berners Lee. http://everist.org/NobLog/20130904_Retarded_ideas_in_comp_sci.htm http://everist.org/NobLog/20140427_p-term_is_retarded.htm > So, when Ed wants multiple white spaces, his MUA has to do >something to state that two consecutive spaces can't be compacted. >Hence the non-breaking space. Except that 'non-breaking space' is mostly about inhibiting line wrap at that word gap. But anyway, there's little point trying to psychoanalyze the writers of that software. Probably involved pointy-headed bosses. >As stated in another reply, I don't think ASCII was ever trying to be >the Babel fish. (Thank you Douglas Adams.) Of course not. It was for American English only. This is one of the major points of failure in the history of information processing. >> Takeaway: Ed, one space is enough. I don't know how you got the idea >> people might miss seeing a single space, and so you need to type two or >> more. > >I wondered if it wasn't a typo or keyboard sensitivity issue. I >remember I had to really slow down the double click speed for my grandpa >(R.I.P.) so that he could use the mouse. Maybe some users actuate keys >slowly enough that the computer thinks that it's repeated keys. ??\_(???)_/?? Well now he's flaunting it in his latest posts. Never mind. :) >> And since plain ASCII is hard-formatted, extra spaces are NOT ignored >> and make for wider spacing between words. > >It seems as if you made an assumption. Just because the underlying >character set is ASCII (per RFC 821 & 822, et al) does not mean that the >data that they are carrying is also ASCII. As is evident by the >Content-Type: header stating the character set of UTF-8. Containing extended Unicode character sets via UTF-8, doesn't make it a non-hard-formatted medium. In ASCII a space is a space, and multi-spaces DON'T collapse. White space collapse is a feature of html, and whether an email is html or not is determined by the sending utility. >Especially when textual white space compression does exactly that, >ignore extra white spaces. > >> Which looks very odd, even if your mail utility didn't try to >> do something 'special' with your unusual user input. As you see, this IS NOT HTML, since those extra spaces and your diagram below would have collapsed if it was html. Also saving it as text and opening in a plain text ed or hex editor absolutely reveals what it is. >I frequently use multiple spaces with ASCII diagrams. > >+------+ >| This | >| is | >| a | >| box | >+------+ >> Btw, I changed the subject line, because this is a wider topic. I've been >> meaning to start a conversation about the original evolution of ASCII, >> and various extensions. Related to a side project of mine. > >I'm curious to know more about your side project. Hmm... the problem is it's intended to be serious, but is still far from exposure-ready. So if I talk about it now, I risk having specific terms I've coined in the doco (including the project name) getting meme-jammed or trademarked by others. The plan is to release it all in one go, eventually. Definitely will be years before that happens, if ever. However, here's a cut-n-paste (in plain text) of a section of the Introduction (html with diags.) ---------- Almost always, a first attempt at some unfamiliar, complex task produces a less than optimal result. Only with the knowledge gained from actually doing a new thing, can one look back and see the mistakes made. It usually takes at least one more cycle of doing it over from scratch to produce something that is optimal for the needs of the situation. Sometimes, especially where deep and subtle conceptual innovations are involved, it takes many iterations. Human development of computing science (including information coding schemes) has been effectively a 'first time effort', since we kept on developing new stuff built on top of earlier work. We almost never went back to the roots and rebuilt everything, applying insights gained from the many mistakes made. In reviewing the evolution of information coding schemes since very early stages such as the Morse code, telegraph signal recording, typewriters, etc, through early computing systems, mass data storage and file systems, computer languages from Assembler through Compilers and Interpreters, and so on, several points can be identified at which early (inadequate) concepts became embedded then used as foundations for further developments. This made the original concepts seem like fundamentals, difficult to question (because they are underlying principles for much more complex later work), and virtually impossible to alter (due to the vast amounts of code dependent on them.) And yet, when viewed in hindsight many of the early concepts are seriously flawed. They effectively hobbled all later work dependent on them. Examples of these pivotal conceptual errors: Defects in the ASCII code table. This was a great improvement at the time, but fails to implement several utterly essential concepts. The lack of these concepts in the character coding scheme underlying virtually all information processing since the 1960s, was unfortunate. Just one (of many) bad consequences has been the proliferation of 'patch-up' text coding schemes such as proprietry document formats (MS Word for eg), postscript, pdf, html (and its even more nutty academia-gone-mad variants like XML), UTF-8, unicode and so on. [pic] This is a scan from the 'Recommended USA Standard Code for Information Interchange (USASCII) X3.4 - 1967' The Hex A-F on rows 10-15, added here. Hexadecimal notation was not commonly in use in the 1960s. Fig. ___ The original ASCII definition table. ASCII's limitations were so severe that even the text (ie ASCII) program code source files used by programmers to develop literally everything else in computing science, had major shortcomings and inconveniences. A few specific examples of ASCII's flaws: Missing concept of control vs data channel separation. And so we needed the "< >" syntax of html, etc. Inability to embed meta-data about the text in standard programatically accessible form. Absense of anything related to text adornments, ie italics, underline and bold. The most basic essentials of expressive text, completely ignored. Absense of any provision for creative typography. No awareness of fonts, type sizes, kerning, etc. Lack of logical 'new line', 'new paragraph' and 'new page' codes. Inadequate support of basic formatting elements such as tabular columns, text blocks, etc. Even the extremely fundamental and essential concept of 'tab columns' is impropperly implemented in ASCII, hence almost completely dysfunctional. No concept of general extensible-typed functional blocks within text, with the necessary opening and closing delimiters. Missing symmetry of quote characters. (A consequence of the absense of typed functional blocks.) No provision for code commenting. Hence the gaggle of comment delimiting styles in every coding language since. (Another consequence of the absense of typed functional blocks.) No awareness of programatic operations such as Inclusion, Variable substitution, Macros, Indirection, Introspection, Linking, Selection, etc. No facility for embedding of multi-byte character and binary code sequences. Missing an informational equivalent to the pure 'zero' symbol of number systems. A specific "There is no information here" symbol. (The NUL symbol has other meanings.) This lack has very profound implications. No facility to embed multiple data object types within text streams. No facility to correlate coded text elements to associated visual typographical elements within digital images, AV files, and other representational constructs. This has crippled efforts to digitize the cultural heritage of humankind. Non-configurable geometry of text flow, when representing the text in 2D planes. (Or 3D space for that matter.) Many of the 32 'control codes' (characters 0x00 to 0x1F) were allocated to hardware-specific uses that have since become obsolete and fallen into disuse. Leaving those codes as a wasted resource. ASCII defined only a 7-bit (128 codes) space, rather than the full 8-bit (256 codes) space available with byte sized architectures. This left the 'upper' 128 code page open to multiple chaotic, conflicting usage interpretations. For example the IBM PC code page symbol sets (multiple languages and graphics symbols, in pre-Unicode days) and the UTF-8 character bit-size extensions. Inability to create files which encapsulate the entirety of the visual appearance of the physical object or text which the file represents, without dependence on any external information. Even plain ASCII text files depend on the external definition of the character glyphs that the character codes represent. This can be a problem if files are intended to serve as long term historical records, potentially for geological timescales. This problem became much worse with the advent of the vast Unicode glyph set, and typset formats such as PDF. The PDF 'archival' format (in which all referenced fonts must be defined in the file) is a step in the right direction ? except that format standard is still proprietary and not available for free. ---------- Sorry to be a tease. Soon I'd like to have a discussion about the functional evolution of the various ASCII control codes, and how they are used (or disused) now. But am a bit too busy atm to give it adequate attention. Guy From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 10:26:06 2018 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 08:26:06 -0800 Subject: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev In-Reply-To: <20181126122818.GA18651@mooli.org.uk> References: <20181123125210.GA32473@mooli.org.uk> <4cdae5fc-899c-3c50-c01b-90f89aa78570@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20181125234426.GZ12071@brevard.conman.org> <20181126010245.GC28507@tau1.ceti.pl> <1b1ad696-5245-da67-0bff-bde740c48a0e@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181126122818.GA18651@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 4:28 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 07:59:13PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > [...] > > Alas, "current" computers use 8, 16, 32. They totally fail to understand > the > > intrinsic benefits of 9, 12, 18, 24, and 36 bits. > > Oh go on then, I'm curious. What are the benefits? Is it just that there > are > useful prime factors for bit-packing hacks? And if so, why not 30? > > As I understand it, 36 bits was used as it could represent a signed 10 digit decimal number in binary; the Frieden 10 digit calculator was the "gold standard" of banking and financial institutions, so to compete in that market, you computer had to be able to match the arithmetic standards. -- Charles -- X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Mon Nov 26 02:04:39 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 09:04:39 +0100 Subject: Working Ardent Titan on Youtube In-Reply-To: <20181125162656.AB87418C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181125162656.AB87418C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0D98536F-D34A-45BF-BE39-46B9527DB92D@vmssoftware.com> On 11/25/18, 5:26 PM, "cctech on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctech" wrote: >> From: Camiel Vanderhoeven >> I have a fully working Ardent Titan with some interesting software on >> it - the bundled version of MATLAB, and BIOGRAF, a molecular modeling >> application > > Neat! Excellent! Do you have the source for any/all of the software on it? Not for any of the commercial software, but there are a bunch of example/demo applications (mainly to show how to program for the Dor? graphics environment) that come with source. The MATLAB extension to use Dor? graphics consists of a bit that's built into MATLAB and a separate display server that MATLAB connects to when you use the render function. The source for the display server is provided so you can customize it. There's also a fair bit of user-written code in the user directories on one the backup tapes, but I am seeking permission from the institute the machine came from first before I start looking for interesting bits of code in there. The OS came with a C compiler, and a vectorizing FORTRAN compiler - bought from Convex - was available as a separate (and expensive) option. Fortunately, my system came with the vectorizing FORTRAN compiler. Noel From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Mon Nov 26 02:04:39 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 09:04:39 +0100 Subject: Working Ardent Titan on Youtube In-Reply-To: <20181125162656.AB87418C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181125162656.AB87418C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0D98536F-D34A-45BF-BE39-46B9527DB92D@vmssoftware.com> On 11/25/18, 5:26 PM, "cctech on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctech" wrote: >> From: Camiel Vanderhoeven >> I have a fully working Ardent Titan with some interesting software on >> it - the bundled version of MATLAB, and BIOGRAF, a molecular modeling >> application > > Neat! Excellent! Do you have the source for any/all of the software on it? Not for any of the commercial software, but there are a bunch of example/demo applications (mainly to show how to program for the Dor? graphics environment) that come with source. The MATLAB extension to use Dor? graphics consists of a bit that's built into MATLAB and a separate display server that MATLAB connects to when you use the render function. The source for the display server is provided so you can customize it. There's also a fair bit of user-written code in the user directories on one the backup tapes, but I am seeking permission from the institute the machine came from first before I start looking for interesting bits of code in there. The OS came with a C compiler, and a vectorizing FORTRAN compiler - bought from Convex - was available as a separate (and expensive) option. Fortunately, my system came with the vectorizing FORTRAN compiler. Noel From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 03:19:39 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 01:19:39 -0800 Subject: Working Ardent Titan on Youtube In-Reply-To: <93862533-8FD6-43E1-B3C6-4F1C6413FA12@vmssoftware.com> References: <93862533-8FD6-43E1-B3C6-4F1C6413FA12@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: <4E85A329-8367-4F44-A6F7-6E1A9ECD7536@gmail.com> Fantastic video and work! The immense boards and 3D molecular software are very impressive! Marc > On Nov 25, 2018, at 6:42 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech wrote: > > Now that my mousepad problem has been solved, and I have a fully working Ardent Titan with some interesting software on it ? the bundled version of MATLAB, and BIOGRAF, a molecular modeling application ? I decided to make a short video about this system in which I show the hardware and demonstrate some of the software: https://youtu.be/tMSnnt3iFz0 > > > > For those who haven?t heard of the system; the 1987 Ardent Titan (later renamed the Stardent 1500) was the first system that combined vector processors (as in a Cray-like architecture) and a graphics engine on the same backplane, and was the highest-performing graphics supercomputer for a short while. In the end, however, a longer than planned time to market and a forced merger with Stellar Computer caused the premature demise of the company. > > > > Cleve Moler, the inventor of MATLAB, worked at Ardent for three years, which is one of the reasons the Titan was the only computer ever to come with MATLAB as part of its bundled software. As I found out later ? after creating this video ? the version of MATLAB on the Titan was unique, because it included a ?render? command, which would plot a 3D surface using the Dor? graphics library. On other platforms, MATLAB could only render mesh plots. It wasn?t until 1992 that the mainstream version of MATLAB gained 3D surface rendering. > > > > Cleve wrote a number of articles on his blog about the Titan, one of which (https://blogs.mathworks.com/cleve/2013/12/09/the-ardent-titan-part-2/) describes how the Titan was used to create a video of a vibrating L-shaped membrane. With a little help from Cleve, I?m trying to recreate this video. A first effort ? which isn?t quite right yet ? can be seen here: https://youtu.be/-XeabDqRAG8 > > > > I hope some of you enjoy these! > > > > Camiel > > > > > From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Mon Nov 26 09:16:43 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 16:16:43 +0100 Subject: Working Ardent Titan on Youtube In-Reply-To: <4E85A329-8367-4F44-A6F7-6E1A9ECD7536@gmail.com> References: <93862533-8FD6-43E1-B3C6-4F1C6413FA12@vmssoftware.com> <4E85A329-8367-4F44-A6F7-6E1A9ECD7536@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0E7B6CCF-09FF-4FE5-99CD-DF430EC28BFA@vmssoftware.com> I'm afraid I can't take that much credit for it; the system was in remarkably good shape when I received it, and all I had to do was verify that the voltages put out by the power supply were within tolerance and fire it up. The most work went into replacing the rubber belts in the old QIC tape cartridges holding the software and backups. Having all the documentation that spells out the magic incantations to boot the system helps too. I still have one remaining issue, and that is that when I connect the system to my network, it works (I can ping both ways), but the OS becomes unstable, and usually crashes within a few minutes. Perhaps it has a problem with jumbo packets or something like that. Camiel ?On 11/26/18, 10:20 AM, "Curious Marc" wrote: Fantastic video and work! The immense boards and 3D molecular software are very impressive! Marc > On Nov 25, 2018, at 6:42 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech wrote: > > Now that my mousepad problem has been solved, and I have a fully working Ardent Titan with