From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 1 05:46:13 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 11:46:13 -0000 Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com> References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> Replying to my own mail to consolidate my answers to the two very kind responses I got. In answer to Adrian: Regarding the PSU, I actually have two Spectrums, the same PSU seems to power the other one OK. I quickly checked it and it is outputting 13.4V and there is no ripple to speak of. So I think the PSU is OK. In answer to Jon: I did look at the power rails. The output from the 7805 looks absolutely fine and the inputs to some of the ICs looks fine. However the Vcc input to the Z80 did look a bit noisy, I found there are quite a few spikes, their amplitude appears to be 600mV. I temporarily added a 3.5uF capacitor I happened to have lying around, this reduced the amplitude of the spikes to about 200mV, but didn't affect the behaviour. I am not sure if these spikes could cause the reset behaviour though. I suppose the spikes could mean either there is a faulty IC (finding that won't be easy), or there is a bad capacitor somewhere. I did replace most of the electrolytic ones, but not all of them, so that is probably a good line of inquiry. I don't think it will be a bad memory location/region in the ROM though because a lot of the resets occur in a loop, so it can read the locations, although I suppose it is possible that the logic levels on the address/data paths could be marginal and occasionally resulting in bad data. My next step was going to be to discover how to get my logic analyser to capture the addresses *and* the resulting data, but I think I will double check the capacitors first. Happy New Year! Rob From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 06:33:04 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 12:33:04 -0000 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: <012a01d38264$13c20820$3b461860$@liftoff.at> Message-ID: <017801d382fc$abbbafd0$03330f70$@gmail.com> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/263405173915 no connection to vendor. saw it on a facebook post... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of . . via > cctalk > Sent: 31 December 2017 18:24 > Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Computing from 1976 > > Is there a good place to hunt or purchase DEC/VAX stuff here in Europe > please/ > > Thanks > > PS: Used to work for DEC in Canada :) > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Subject: Computing from 1976 > > Local Time: December 31, 2017 7:20 PM > > UTC Time: December 31, 2017 6:20 PM > > From: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > Hi, > > > > I was working 1976 as a volunteer at a research center near Vienna in > > Austria writing FORTRAN programs on a PDP8a. We also have a PDP8/e > there. > > Now I am collecting DEC stuff. > > > > Happy new year !!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > Gerhard > > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > > Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von > > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > Gesendet: Sonntag, 31. Dezember 2017 19:00 > > An: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 30 > > > > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than > > "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 1 07:15:15 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 08:15:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Computing from 1976 Message-ID: <20180101131515.52C2218C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Peter Corlett > since we have computers with multiple gigabytes of RAM, it makes little > sense to restrain one's use of them to a fraction of the capabilities, > except as an intellectual exercise. For data, sure. (It's amazing how big even images can become, as the resolution is increased. And that's not even video!) For code, however, there are very good reasons to think that 'more is _NOT_ better'. More code means more complexity, and that has a host of Really Bad consequences: harder to understand, more likely to have bugs, etc, etc. It also often means that unless you have the Latest and Greatest hardware, the machine is simply too slow to run the latest bloatware. The machine I'm typing this on has a 1.4GHz single-core CPU, and _most_ things run on it just fine - but going to many Web sites is now painful, since the 'obligatory' HTTPS (another hot button, one I'll refrain from hitting right now, to keep the length of this down) makes even simple Web operations slow. Noel From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Mon Jan 1 09:32:26 2018 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 09:32:26 -0600 Subject: Boot RXS Message-ID: Hello, With the wonderful help of many you here I have revived a PDP11/04, connected it to an RL02, and using PDP11GUI I have successfully imaged a number of RL02 packs.? I found a copy of an RQ device that boots.? I can attach my images and explore the contents with PIP so I believe the transfer was good. One of the packs was a system disk so I tried to boot it like this: ?? PDP-11 simulator V3.8-2 (JH stdio telnet) ?? sim> set cpu 11/93, 4M ?? Disabling CR ?? Disabling RK ?? Disabling HK ?? Disabling TM ?? sim> set cpu idle ?? sim> set rl0 rl02 ?? sim> attach rl0 RSX11-bu.rl02 ?? sim> b rl0 ?? SAV -- SOFTWARE CONFIGURED FOR ENABLE HARDWARE WHICH DOES NOT RESPOND.? HALTED. ?? HALT instruction, PC: 126272 (BR 126270) ?? sim> Does anyone have any hints on how I can guess what I need to add? The original machine was and 11/34 (maybe a 11/34a) and had a multi-line serial port setup.? All thoughts appreciated. Sincerely, John Welch :qw From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 1 10:40:42 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 16:40:42 +0000 Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com>, <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: What trigger evens does your analyzer have. Does it have a stop on trigger? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Rob Jarratt via cctalk Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 3:46:13 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting Replying to my own mail to consolidate my answers to the two very kind responses I got. In answer to Adrian: Regarding the PSU, I actually have two Spectrums, the same PSU seems to power the other one OK. I quickly checked it and it is outputting 13.4V and there is no ripple to speak of. So I think the PSU is OK. In answer to Jon: I did look at the power rails. The output from the 7805 looks absolutely fine and the inputs to some of the ICs looks fine. However the Vcc input to the Z80 did look a bit noisy, I found there are quite a few spikes, their amplitude appears to be 600mV. I temporarily added a 3.5uF capacitor I happened to have lying around, this reduced the amplitude of the spikes to about 200mV, but didn't affect the behaviour. I am not sure if these spikes could cause the reset behaviour though. I suppose the spikes could mean either there is a faulty IC (finding that won't be easy), or there is a bad capacitor somewhere. I did replace most of the electrolytic ones, but not all of them, so that is probably a good line of inquiry. I don't think it will be a bad memory location/region in the ROM though because a lot of the resets occur in a loop, so it can read the locations, although I suppose it is possible that the logic levels on the address/data paths could be marginal and occasionally resulting in bad data. My next step was going to be to discover how to get my logic analyser to capture the addresses *and* the resulting data, but I think I will double check the capacitors first. Happy New Year! Rob From m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 1 10:47:00 2018 From: m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net (Michael Zahorik) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 16:47:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC quad board rack In-Reply-To: <20180101010522.4A31118C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180101010522.4A31118C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1178763.7620070.1514825220714@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for responding. Makes sense. I do like your wood working. I may give it a try. Should not be very difficult. ?Mike Zahorik (414) 254-6768 From: Noel Chiappa via cctalk To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 7:05 PM Subject: Re: DEC quad board rack ? ? > From: Michael Zahorik ? ? > a dozen or so spare boards for my PDP8E. I was wondering about how to ? ? > store them. Some guys recommend some poly bags, others say it is ? ? > important to protect against humidity. ... have you had any failures ? ? > while in storage? Well, i) most of my boards had been in uncertain storage for a long time before they got to me, and I've only tested a fraction of them, so if I tried one now, and it had an issue, I wouldn't know when (i.e. under which storage regime) it happened - some have shown failures, but I think they all happened before they got to me; ii) some of the failures we see (e.g. PROM's losing their programming) are known to happen via various time-related processes, not storage condition; and iii) I'm not a hardware person, but even then, you'd want someone with expertise in failures, which is not common. But, having said that, these are my 'common-sense' rules for storage: i) bags aren't critical (especially for older stuff, which is generally bipolar, not CMOS, and therefore not very sensitive to static), ii) high humidity is not good, as you can get corrosion on chip leads (I've seen a few where the leads were so corroded they came off)- but very low humidity can be an issue, if you have CMOS, as it's more static-friendly (as Dave Bridgham found out the hard way in his lab); iii) large-amplitude temperature cycles are not good, as thermally-induced contraction and expansion probably aren't good; and avoiding very high, and very low temperatures (even if constant) is probably better for long-term health. ??? Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 1 10:51:13 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 16:51:13 -0000 Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com>, <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <001301d38320$bc1a7900$344f6b00$@ntlworld.com> Yes I believe it does. I am replacing some capacitors that I didn't replace the first time right now, so I will know soon if that was the cause of some of the noise on the Z80 Vcc rail. These boards are a nightmare for desoldering even simple through hole capacitors, the "eyelets" come away just from the suction of the desoldering gun. These must be cheap and nasty boards. Regards Rob From: dwight [mailto:dkelvey at hotmail.com] Sent: 01 January 2018 16:41 To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting What trigger evens does your analyzer have. Does it have a stop on trigger? Dwight _____ From: cctalk > on behalf of Rob Jarratt via cctalk > Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 3:46:13 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting Replying to my own mail to consolidate my answers to the two very kind responses I got. In answer to Adrian: Regarding the PSU, I actually have two Spectrums, the same PSU seems to power the other one OK. I quickly checked it and it is outputting 13.4V and there is no ripple to speak of. So I think the PSU is OK. In answer to Jon: I did look at the power rails. The output from the 7805 looks absolutely fine and the inputs to some of the ICs looks fine. However the Vcc input to the Z80 did look a bit noisy, I found there are quite a few spikes, their amplitude appears to be 600mV. I temporarily added a 3.5uF capacitor I happened to have lying around, this reduced the amplitude of the spikes to about 200mV, but didn't affect the behaviour. I am not sure if these spikes could cause the reset behaviour though. I suppose the spikes could mean either there is a faulty IC (finding that won't be easy), or there is a bad capacitor somewhere. I did replace most of the electrolytic ones, but not all of them, so that is probably a good line of inquiry. I don't think it will be a bad memory location/region in the ROM though because a lot of the resets occur in a loop, so it can read the locations, although I suppose it is possible that the logic levels on the address/data paths could be marginal and occasionally resulting in bad data. My next step was going to be to discover how to get my logic analyser to capture the addresses *and* the resulting data, but I think I will double check the capacitors first. Happy New Year! Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 1 11:22:53 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 17:22:53 -0000 Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com>, <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <001c01d38325$28af1db0$7a0d5910$@ntlworld.com> I just replaced the last of the electrolytics, but the spikes on the Z80 5V rail have not gone away. They only exist on the 5V rail in close proximity to the Z80, other chips with a 5V supply don't have the spikes on the 5V rail. The nearest capacitor is marked 473, which I assume means 47nF. It is not electrolytic and I believe not therefore susceptible to rising ESR with age. I don't know the actual type, it is axial, the centre of the case appears transparent. Surely this can't be the cause of the spikes, can it? Regards Rob From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] Sent: 01 January 2018 16:51 To: 'dwight' ; 'rob at jarratt.me.uk' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting Yes I believe it does. I am replacing some capacitors that I didn't replace the first time right now, so I will know soon if that was the cause of some of the noise on the Z80 Vcc rail. These boards are a nightmare for desoldering even simple through hole capacitors, the "eyelets" come away just from the suction of the desoldering gun. These must be cheap and nasty boards. Regards Rob From: dwight [ mailto:dkelvey at hotmail.com] Sent: 01 January 2018 16:41 To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt < robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting What trigger evens does your analyzer have. Does it have a stop on trigger? Dwight _____ From: cctalk < cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Rob Jarratt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 3:46:13 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting Replying to my own mail to consolidate my answers to the two very kind responses I got. In answer to Adrian: Regarding the PSU, I actually have two Spectrums, the same PSU seems to power the other one OK. I quickly checked it and it is outputting 13.4V and there is no ripple to speak of. So I think the PSU is OK. In answer to Jon: I did look at the power rails. The output from the 7805 looks absolutely fine and the inputs to some of the ICs looks fine. However the Vcc input to the Z80 did look a bit noisy, I found there are quite a few spikes, their amplitude appears to be 600mV. I temporarily added a 3.5uF capacitor I happened to have lying around, this reduced the amplitude of the spikes to about 200mV, but didn't affect the behaviour. I am not sure if these spikes could cause the reset behaviour though. I suppose the spikes could mean either there is a faulty IC (finding that won't be easy), or there is a bad capacitor somewhere. I did replace most of the electrolytic ones, but not all of them, so that is probably a good line of inquiry. I don't think it will be a bad memory location/region in the ROM though because a lot of the resets occur in a loop, so it can read the locations, although I suppose it is possible that the logic levels on the address/data paths could be marginal and occasionally resulting in bad data. My next step was going to be to discover how to get my logic analyser to capture the addresses *and* the resulting data, but I think I will double check the capacitors first. Happy New Year! Rob From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 1 11:26:10 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 17:26:10 +0000 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: <20180101131515.52C2218C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180101131515.52C2218C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: One other thing that larger/faster becomes a problem. That is probability! We think of computers always making discrete steps. This is not always true. The processors run so fast that different areas, even using the same clock, have enough skew that the data has to be treated as asynchronous. Transferring asynchronous information it always a probability issue. It used to be that 1 part in 2^30 was such a large number, it could be ignored. Parts often use ECC to account for this but that just works if the lost is recoverable ( not always so ). Even the flipflops have a probability of loosing their value. Flops that are expected to be required to hold state for a long time are designed differently that flops that are only used for transient data. All these probabilities add up. We are expecting more and more that no mistake will happen when we add more and more data and code to deal with it. What fail safes do we have when things are so complex that multiple failures are expected to happen. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 5:15:15 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Computing from 1976 > From: Peter Corlett > since we have computers with multiple gigabytes of RAM, it makes little > sense to restrain one's use of them to a fraction of the capabilities, > except as an intellectual exercise. For data, sure. (It's amazing how big even images can become, as the resolution is increased. And that's not even video!) For code, however, there are very good reasons to think that 'more is _NOT_ better'. More code means more complexity, and that has a host of Really Bad consequences: harder to understand, more likely to have bugs, etc, etc. It also often means that unless you have the Latest and Greatest hardware, the machine is simply too slow to run the latest bloatware. The machine I'm typing this on has a 1.4GHz single-core CPU, and _most_ things run on it just fine - but going to many Web sites is now painful, since the 'obligatory' HTTPS (another hot button, one I'll refrain from hitting right now, to keep the length of this down) makes even simple Web operations slow. Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 1 11:28:38 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2018 11:28:38 -0600 Subject: ID some core memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A4A6FC6.5020207@pico-systems.com> On 12/30/2017 01:21 PM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > Just curious...can anyone id the system that used these two types of core > memory? I am thinking the first is a hand-made custom core, but the 2nd is > definitely from a commercial system. Looks kind of IBM-ish but it's > nothing I can ID. It's not an IBM 1401 I don't think. > http://vintagecomputer.net/core-memory/ There are some stamps on the metal frame in the 6th picture that REALLY look like IBM markings. IBM made a number of computer families in the early 60's. How many wires pass through each core? if it has 4 wires, that will date it as early 60's, as almost all systems moved to 3 wires by combining the sense and inhibit wires by 1965 or earlier. it does appear to have 40 bit planes, however, which doesn't ring any IBM bells for me. The 7070 was supposed to have an 8-digit word plus a sign digit, so that sounds like 44 bits. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 1 12:07:23 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2018 12:07:23 -0600 Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: <001c01d38325$28af1db0$7a0d5910$@ntlworld.com> References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com>, <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> <001c01d38325$28af1db0$7a0d5910$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5A4A78DB.6000205@pico-systems.com> On 01/01/2018 11:22 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I just replaced the last of the electrolytics, but the spikes on the Z80 5V > rail have not gone away. They only exist on the 5V rail in close proximity > to the Z80, other chips with a 5V supply don't have the spikes on the 5V > rail. > It could be caused by bus contention, which may also be the cause of the resetting. Possibly some of the decode logic has failed, and is allowing two devices to drive the data bus at the same time. I've seen this before, and it does cause spikes on the 5V rails. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 1 12:17:36 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2018 12:17:36 -0600 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: <20180101131515.52C2218C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5A4A7B40.1040704@pico-systems.com> On 01/01/2018 11:26 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > One other thing that larger/faster becomes a problem. That is probability! > > We think of computers always making discrete steps. This is not always true. The processors run so fast that different areas, even using the same clock, have enough skew that the data has to be treated as asynchronous. Transferring asynchronous information it always a probability issue. It used to be that 1 part in 2^30 was such a large number, it could be ignored. Well, very few (like NONE) mainstream chips are globally asynchronous. (Systems often are, but the CHIPS, themselves, are almost always fully synchronous.) The main reason for this is the simulation software has not been BUILT to handle that. A guy I work with is a partner in a company working on simulation tools for GALS designs (Globally Asynchronous, Locally Synchronous) which is a fairly hot area of research now. And, not, there are designs for synchronizers that reduce the probability issue to FF metastability. Xilinx did some extensive work many years ago on reducing FF metastability, and showed that with dual-ranked FFs, the sun will burn out before you get an incorrect event through the 2nd FF. The Macromodule project at Washington University developed this synchronization scheme and did a whole lot of theoretical work on how to make it reliable and provable. That is the basis for much of the GALS concepts. Jon From mail.nickallen at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 12:32:03 2018 From: mail.nickallen at gmail.com (Nick Allen) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 12:32:03 -0600 Subject: Help diagnosing boot issue SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: <48fffbdb-f021-2d19-cb05-16f8e5dd7d3b@gmail.com> Hey everyone, Happy New Years!? I am thankful for an active community that enjoys helping each other learn, and today I am coming with an ask for help. I have a SWTPC 6800 and ADM3A terminal, I can get it to boot, and when it boots it will continue to boot for several hours.? But getting it to successfully boot takes upwards of 100 power OFF and ON cycles.? The other 99 times, I get a continuous stream of random ASCII characters (see video link below).? It's my first time seeing this type of issue that happens intermittently, and wondering if anyone has any insights in what might be causing this.? I suspect its a faulty IC on the Processor board that resets or controls the OS reset, will need to deep dive and diagnose, but thought I would ask for some direction first. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci4vhPn-3PE Thanks in advance! -Nick From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 1 12:34:30 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 18:34:30 -0000 Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: <5A4A78DB.6000205@pico-systems.com> References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com>, <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> <001c01d38325$28af1db0$7a0d5910$@ntlworld.com> <5A4A78DB.6000205@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <002501d3832f$29b892e0$7d29b8a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Elson [mailto:elson at pico-systems.com] > Sent: 01 January 2018 18:07 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting > > On 01/01/2018 11:22 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I just replaced the last of the electrolytics, but the spikes on the > > Z80 5V rail have not gone away. They only exist on the 5V rail in > > close proximity to the Z80, other chips with a 5V supply don't have > > the spikes on the 5V rail. > > > It could be caused by bus contention, which may also be the cause of the > resetting. Possibly some of the decode logic has failed, and is allowing two > devices to drive the data bus at the same time. I've seen this before, and it > does cause spikes on the 5V rails. > That is interesting, I hadn't considered that. Given that it gets a fair way into the boot sequence it would have to be an intermittent failure. Regards Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 1 12:35:38 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 13:35:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Boot RXS Message-ID: <20180101183538.35B7618C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Welch > SAV -- SOFTWARE CONFIGURED FOR ENABLE HARDWARE WHICH DOES NOT RESPOND. > HALTED. > Does anyone have any hints on how I can guess what I need to add? Well, Able made a thing called an 'Able ENABLE' which allowed use of more than 256KB of physical memory on any UNIBUS -11 with memory mapping hardware which wasn't an -11/70-44-24. That's probably what it's talking about. We had one on our -11/45 at MIT, BITD. So I have the programming spec for it, back-created from the source code for that machine. And Clem Cole was nice enough to follow up on an old message in an email list archive, and dig up some documentation and scan it in. I was planning on doing a page for it on the Computer History wiki, haven't got a round tuit yet, though. They are, AFAIK, complete unobtainium in physical form; I've been looking for years, never seen one. If someone wanted to upgrade SIMH to support it, we do know enough to do that. Noel From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 12:42:05 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 10:42:05 -0800 Subject: DEC quad board rack In-Reply-To: <20171231143228.8F53018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171231143228.8F53018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9DC3305D-A4F4-4752-BEE4-9EAC4475C34F@gmail.com> That's pretty neat. Nicely done. Marc On Dec 31, 2017, at 6:32 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: So, I've been making wooden racks to hold a lot of my DEC boards, and I've finally come up with a nice design for one, which holds quad boards: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/QuadRack.jpg which holds them vertically. It's much better than the dual rack next to it, which holds them horizontally, which has the issue that the distance between the sides needs to be absolutely perfect, otherwise the boards tend to drop out of their slots. With the boards held vertically, it's much less sensitive. If anyone's interested in building one, I can whip up a drawing. (Note that the slots are offset slightly to the left because one needs different clearances for the solder and component sides.) The one shown uses 3 pieces of 1"x8"x6' (not sure what that translates to in that new-fangled French stuff :-). It would be tricky to make without a radial-arm saw, though - although I suppose a router with a small bit could be used, albeit tedious. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 1 12:58:57 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 13:58:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC quad board rack Message-ID: <20180101185857.3542118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Michael Zahorik > Thanks for responding. Sure. Not sure how much use it was, but... > I do like your wood working. Thanks.. > may give it a try. Should not be very difficult. No, as long as you have either a radial arm saw (best), or a table saw (preferably with a 'sled' - if you don't have one, probably worth making one) to cut all the slots. Like I said, if you want a drawing, let me know. A few data bits: the slot pitch (slot center to slot center distance) is 5/8"; I used 1/8" for the depth of the bottom slot (just enough to hold it in place), and 3/16" for the top (some extra, to allow for board size variation). The shelf-shelf spacing (i.e. bottom of one, to the top of the next) is 10-1/4" (i.e. the repeat distance is 11", when using 3/4" boards). Noel From m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 1 13:46:55 2018 From: m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net (Michael Zahorik) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 19:46:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC quad board rack In-Reply-To: <20180101185857.3542118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180101185857.3542118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <996194365.7667769.1514836015427@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks, that information should be enough to get going. I may want a different lay out so that it will fit on some metal shelving I have. ?Mike Zahorik (414) 254-6768 From: Noel Chiappa via cctalk To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 12:59 PM Subject: Re: DEC quad board rack ? ? > From: Michael Zahorik ? ? > Thanks for responding. Sure. Not sure how much use it was, but... ? ? > I do like your wood working. Thanks.. ? ? >? may give it a try. Should not be very difficult. No, as long as you have either a radial arm saw (best), or a table saw (preferably with a 'sled' - if you don't have one, probably worth making one) to cut all the slots. Like I said, if you want a drawing, let me know. A few data bits: the slot pitch (slot center to slot center distance) is 5/8"; I used 1/8" for the depth of the bottom slot (just enough to hold it in place), and 3/16" for the top (some extra, to allow for board size variation). The shelf-shelf spacing (i.e. bottom of one, to the top of the next) is 10-1/4" (i.e. the repeat distance is 11", when using 3/4" boards). ? ? Noel From jason at smbfc.net Mon Jan 1 13:48:13 2018 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 11:48:13 -0800 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: <20180101131515.52C2218C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180101131515.52C2218C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <96f7eaa6-8866-cc56-5141-7ba988615765@smbfc.net> On 01/01/2018 05:15 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > ....The machine I'm > typing this on has a 1.4GHz single-core CPU, and _most_ things run on it just > fine - but going to many Web sites is now painful, since the 'obligatory' > HTTPS (another hot button, one I'll refrain from hitting right now, to keep > the length of this down) makes even simple Web operations slow. > > Noel I find that the boatloads of javascript are what bring my old machines to their knees.? The initial https handshake really isn't *that* bad. --Jason From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 1 13:55:43 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 11:55:43 -0800 Subject: FFA: Amstrad Joyce (USA) Message-ID: There probably aren't that many 120V versions of the Amstrad Joyce Word processor, but I've got one here. I replaced the 3" CF floppy drive with a 720K 3.5" drive and modified some boot disks. The system now supports 3.5" double-sided media and is fully populated with 512K of DRAM and runs CP/M 3.0. Unit with keyboard only, free to good home; sorry but I don't have the printer. I need to get this thing out of the way; if it goes unclaimed by January 15, off it goes to NextStep recycling. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 1 14:00:24 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 15:00:24 -0500 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: <20180101131515.52C2218C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2A795226-4660-45B6-9783-A30B1A66CB0C@comcast.net> > On Jan 1, 2018, at 12:26 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > One other thing that larger/faster becomes a problem. That is probability! > > We think of computers always making discrete steps. This is not always true. The processors run so fast that different areas, even using the same clock, have enough skew that the data has to be treated as asynchronous. Transferring asynchronous information it always a probability issue. It used to be that 1 part in 2^30 was such a large number, it could be ignored. > > Parts often use ECC to account for this but that just works if the lost is recoverable ( not always so ). That doesn't sound quite right. "Asychronous" does not mean the clock is skewed, it means the system operates without a clock -- instead relying either on worst case delays or on explicit completion signals. That used to be done at times. The Unibus is a classis example of an asynchronous bus, and I suppose there are others from that era. The only asynchronous computer I can think of is the Dutch ARRA 1, which is notorious for only ever executing one significant program successfully for that reason. Its successor (ARRA 2) was a conventional synchronous design. About 15 years or so ago, an ASIC company attempted to build processors with an asynchronous structure. That didn't work out, partly because the design tools didn't exist. I think they ended up building packet switch chips instead. Clock skew applies to synchronous devices (since "synchronous" means "it has a clock"). It is a real issue in any fast computer, going back at least as far as the CDC 6600. The way it's handled is by analyzing worst case skew and designing the logic for correct operation in that case. (Or, in the case of the 6600, by tweaking until the machine seems to work.) ECC isn't applicable; computer logic doesn't use ECC, it doesn't really fit. ECC applies to memory, where it is used to handle the fact that data is not stored with 100% reliability. I suppose you can design logic with error correction in it, and indeed you will find this in quantum computers, but I haven't heard of it being done in conventional computers. > Even the flipflops have a probability of loosing their value. Flops that are expected to be required to hold state for a long time are designed differently that flops that are only used for transient data. Could you give an example of that, i.e., the circuit design and where it is used? I have never heard of such a thing and find it rather surprising. paul From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 1 14:08:26 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 12:08:26 -0800 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: <96f7eaa6-8866-cc56-5141-7ba988615765@smbfc.net> References: <20180101131515.52C2218C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <96f7eaa6-8866-cc56-5141-7ba988615765@smbfc.net> Message-ID: On 01/01/2018 11:48 AM, Jason Howe via cctalk wrote: > I find that the boatloads of javascript are what bring my old machines > to their knees.? The initial https handshake really isn't *that* bad. Heh, many of my device programming tools are *old* and require a PC with real parallel port and/or serial ports. I suspect that there are modern USB version, but why fool around with something that works? My go-to-system for such things is an old socket A PC that has an Athlon XP-M hacked into it running at about 2.3GHz. It's not awful on most things, but web browsing is very sluggish--it never used to be--something I attribute to more cruft-laden website code. At any rate--I do my browsing on a contemporary system and ftp over any file content needed. Works just fine. --Chuck From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Jan 1 14:25:15 2018 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 15:25:15 -0500 Subject: Help diagnosing boot issue SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <48fffbdb-f021-2d19-cb05-16f8e5dd7d3b@gmail.com> References: <48fffbdb-f021-2d19-cb05-16f8e5dd7d3b@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1ae401d3833e$a276ebf0$e764c3d0$@verizon.net> Hi Nick, The "fatherboard" contacts on the SWTPc can be very intermittent. This also plagues the OSI bus. I recommend a two step treatment: 1) brush the pins with deoxit gold 2) force nyogel 759G (or the successor compound, I think 759G is discontinued) into all of the "holes" (pin sockets on the cards) using a toothpick (careful not to break it off) and seat and remove each card several times. In my experience, this treatment results in a much more reliable system. I've also used it on a couple of S-100 systems where the cards were exceedingly difficult to remove and insert. Bill S. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nick Allen via cctalk Sent: Monday, January 01, 2018 1:32 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Help diagnosing boot issue SWTPC 6800 Hey everyone, Happy New Years! I am thankful for an active community that enjoys helping each other learn, and today I am coming with an ask for help. I have a SWTPC 6800 and ADM3A terminal, I can get it to boot, and when it boots it will continue to boot for several hours. But getting it to successfully boot takes upwards of 100 power OFF and ON cycles. The other 99 times, I get a continuous stream of random ASCII characters (see video link below). It's my first time seeing this type of issue that happens intermittently, and wondering if anyone has any insights in what might be causing this. I suspect its a faulty IC on the Processor board that resets or controls the OS reset, will need to deep dive and diagnose, but thought I would ask for some direction first. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci4vhPn-3PE Thanks in advance! -Nick --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 1 14:29:43 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 12:29:43 -0800 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: <2A795226-4660-45B6-9783-A30B1A66CB0C@comcast.net> References: <20180101131515.52C2218C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2A795226-4660-45B6-9783-A30B1A66CB0C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <08a60a2b-b8a3-0ddf-1e62-1995ec5e348e@sydex.com> On 01/01/2018 12:00 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > "Asychronous" does not mean the clock is skewed, it means the system operates without a clock -- instead relying either on worst case delays or on explicit completion signals. That used to be done at times. The Unibus is a classis example of an asynchronous bus, and I suppose there are others from that era. The only asynchronous computer I can think of is the Dutch ARRA 1, which is notorious for only ever executing one significant program successfully for that reason. Its successor (ARRA 2) was a conventional synchronous design. I'm not certain, but I believe that the Philco System 2000 had parts of the CPU that operated asynchronously. At least that's what my failing wetware seems to indicate. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 1 14:33:21 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 15:33:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Computing from 1976 Message-ID: <20180101203321.2AE5118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > The only asynchronous computer I can think of is the Dutch ARRA 1 Isn't the KA10 basically asynchronous? (I know, it has a clock, but I'm not sure how much it is used for.) The thing is I recall reading (where, I don't now remember) that the CPU is organized with 'go' pulses leading from one block of circuity to another, and it uses delay lines to time out the passage of these pulses, so if you wanted the CPU to be as fast as possible, you went around to each delay line and tweaked them down until things started to fail, and then backed off a bit. Other CPUs of that era might be the same. There's an amusing description of the Multics CPU here: http://www.multicians.org/mga.html#6180 "The 6180 processor was among the last of the great non-microcoded engines. Entirely asynchronous, its hundred-odd boards would send out requests, earmark the results for somebody else, swipe somebody else's signals or data, and backstab each other in all sorts of amusing ways which occasionally failed (the 'op not complete' timer would go off and cause a fault). Unlike the PDP-10, there was no hint of an organized synchronization strategy: various 'it's ready now', 'ok, go', 'take a cycle' pulses merely surged through the vast backpanel ANDed with appropriate state and goosed the next guy down." Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 1 14:35:50 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 12:35:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: <002501d3832f$29b892e0$7d29b8a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com>, <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> <001c01d38325$28af1db0$7a0d5910$@ntlworld.com> <5A4A78DB.6000205@pico-systems.com> <002501d3832f$29b892e0$7d29b8a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Is there a random element to the rebooting, or is it a fixed specific pattern? Consider, . . . if some high order bits of the address are non-functional, then when it goes to location xxx000 , it starts over at 000000. Not necessarily the most likely cause of the problem. From dab at froghouse.org Mon Jan 1 14:42:34 2018 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 15:42:34 -0500 Subject: QSIC update and request Message-ID: <014453c1-5157-bfe7-d6c9-251eb04d3df3@froghouse.org> Even though I've been quiet, I have been making slow progress on the QSIC in the background.? For those who've forgotten what the QSIC project is about, here's the description: http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/html/overview.html We've been working away on getting communications with the SD card working and that's basically there now.? It initializes and reads and writes blocks.? I've also connected it through an async FIFO to the minimal RK11 controller I had working before and that's mostly working.? That is, it can read and write blocks under control from the QBUS PDP-11 as if it were a real RK11/RK05.? What more could you ask for? Well, I could ask for a lot more really but that's pretty good.? There's a lot of RK11 functionality that I haven't implemented yet and all sorts of configuration options we need to get in there.? Also, there's a bug where it sometimes scrambles data so it's not quite ready to boot and run a real OS yet but it's getting awfully close. Here's a picture to my test setup: http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/qsic-setup.jpg And a picture of a test of some spray-on glass frosting used as a light diffuser on the indicator panel.? In this picture you can also see the new LEDs I found that are a much better color match to the old incandescent bulbs than the LEDs I picked for my first attempt. http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/frosting.jpg Now for the request.? I've decided that I'd like to put a soft-processor in the FPGA to handle a bunch of things (configuration duties and the USB protocol being two of the big ones).? My preference would be for this soft-processor to be a PDP-11.? Surely there's hack value in using a PDP-11 as the I/O processor for a PDP-11 but there are practical advantages to this as well.? For one, we're already familiar with it and have a suite of development tools.? Also, I can re-arrange the I/O devices I intend to give to this soft-11 and put them directly on the QBUS instead and do initial development there. I'd rather not get diverted by yet another substantial development project so I'm looking for a decent little FPGA implementation of a PDP-11 that I could just pick up use for this purpose.? Something that's already debugged.? I'm thinking closer to an 11/04 than an 11/70 and likely just running out of block RAM on the FPGA. Thanks for any pointers to such an implementation and thanks to everyone who's given support and assistance as Noel and I have poked along on this project. Dave From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 14:45:23 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 20:45:23 +0000 Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: <002501d3832f$29b892e0$7d29b8a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com> <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> <001c01d38325$28af1db0$7a0d5910$@ntlworld.com> <5A4A78DB.6000205@pico-systems.com> <002501d3832f$29b892e0$7d29b8a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <90FBB7A7-4B57-4143-A82D-6FCA3632C561@gmail.com> >>> >> It could be caused by bus contention, which may also be the cause of the >> resetting. Possibly some of the decode logic has failed, and is allowing > two >> devices to drive the data bus at the same time. I've seen this before, > and it >> does cause spikes on the 5V rails. >> > > That is interesting, I hadn't considered that. Given that it gets a fair way > into the boot sequence it would have to be an intermittent failure. I?d be interested in putting my diagnostic ROM on that just to see what it throws up. In the absence of having it in front of me so I can do that is the ROM socketed? You can easily burn your own if so. ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 14:56:20 2018 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 12:56:20 -0800 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: <20180101203321.2AE5118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180101203321.2AE5118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 12:33 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Other CPUs of that era might be the same. There's an amusing description > of the Multics CPU here: > > http://www.multicians.org/mga.html#6180 > > "The 6180 processor was among the last of the great non-microcoded engines. > Entirely asynchronous, its hundred-odd boards would send out requests, > earmark the results for somebody else, swipe somebody else's signals or > data, > and backstab each other in all sorts of amusing ways which occasionally > failed (the 'op not complete' timer would go off and cause a fault). Unlike > the PDP-10, there was no hint of an organized synchronization strategy: > various 'it's ready now', 'ok, go', 'take a cycle' pulses merely surged > through the vast backpanel ANDed with appropriate state and goosed the next > guy down." > > I have the understanding that the design was large blocks of synchronous logic connected asynchronously. The Control Unit (instruction fetch and decode), Operations Unit (integer operations), Decimal Unit (decimal and floating point), Extended Instruction Set (string and bit operations) and Append Unit (virtrual memory) were all internally synchronous units. The asynchronous interconnects is supposedly why the GE-635 was the machine that was made into the GE-645/6180 for Multics: adding the Append Unit was relatively easy: it was just wedged in between the Operations Unit and the SCU (memory); the fact that memory access was now slower due to page table lookup is not an issue as it didn't interfere with bus timing; the CPU just waited longer for the data. -- Charles From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 1 14:56:53 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 20:56:53 -0000 Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: <90FBB7A7-4B57-4143-A82D-6FCA3632C561@gmail.com> References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com> <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> <001c01d38325$28af1db0$7a0d5910$@ntlworld.com> <5A4A78DB.6000205@pico-systems.com> <002501d3832f$29b892e0$7d29b8a0$@ntlworld.com> <90FBB7A7-4B57-4143-A82D-6FCA3632C561@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001401d38343$0e516860$2af43920$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham via cctalk > Sent: 01 January 2018 20:45 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting > > >>> > >> It could be caused by bus contention, which may also be the cause of > >> the resetting. Possibly some of the decode logic has failed, and is > >> allowing > > two > >> devices to drive the data bus at the same time. I've seen this > >> before, > > and it > >> does cause spikes on the 5V rails. > >> > > > > That is interesting, I hadn't considered that. Given that it gets a > > fair way into the boot sequence it would have to be an intermittent failure. > > I?d be interested in putting my diagnostic ROM on that just to see what it > throws up. In the absence of having it in front of me so I can do that is the ROM > socketed? You can easily burn your own if so. > The ROM is not socketed. I have found that every time I desolder something from this board I end up damaging the through holes, just the suction from my de-soldering gun was enough to remove the "eyelet" today when removing a capacitor. I could socket it though as that would be useful anyway, and I can check the ROM contents and make sure it reads OK multiple times. Regards Rob From dab at froghouse.org Mon Jan 1 14:57:23 2018 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 15:57:23 -0500 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: <20180101203321.2AE5118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180101203321.2AE5118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <421181da-c51b-62a1-6090-b53f71b25aa0@froghouse.org> On 01/01/2018 03:33 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > > > The only asynchronous computer I can think of is the Dutch ARRA 1 > > Isn't the KA10 basically asynchronous? (I know, it has a clock, but I'm > not sure how much it is used for.) This was my understanding, as well. More recently there was the AMULET processors designed at the University of Manchester. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMULET_microprocessor One of the stories I read about the AMULET was that they wrote a little program to blink an LED where the timing was determined by a busy loop.? If they sat a hot cup of coffee on the processor, the light would blink slower; a cup of ice water and it would blink faster.? If this were a different group, I might suggest that this points the way to designing computers that transition gracefully in Vinge's Zones of Thought but I'll just leave that digression alone. The Advances Processor Technologies group at the University of Manchester also came up with the Balsa language, an HDL for asynchronous design.? When I started working on my own PDP-10 implementation, I began by writing it in Balsa, thinking I wanted it to be a follow-on to the KA10.? I'm still interested in asynchronous design but I've let that implementation go for the moment. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 1 15:02:10 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 21:02:10 -0000 Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com>, <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> <001c01d38325$28af1db0$7a0d5910$@ntlworld.com> <5A4A78DB.6000205@pico-systems.com> <002501d3832f$29b892e0$7d29b8a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <001501d38343$cb0f2050$612d60f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > via cctalk > Sent: 01 January 2018 20:36 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting > > Is there a random element to the rebooting, or is it a fixed specific pattern? > > Consider, . . . > if some high order bits of the address are non-functional, then when it goes to > location xxx000 , it starts over at 000000. > > Not necessarily the most likely cause of the problem. Unfortunately it is random. To a point. When I did my trace with the logic analyser I could see it was in a RAM testing loop and would fail part way through the loop, failing on an address that previously worked. However, it manages to get past that bit and gets to the point where the copyright message is displayed. But it always resets at that point. I have not been able to capture that point in the address trace to see if it is a consistent address, but maybe that is something I can try with a trace that triggers on a stop condition. I will try that this evening. Regards Rob From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Jan 1 16:17:54 2018 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2018 14:17:54 -0800 Subject: Help diagnosing boot issue SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: I had that happening on mine.. came down to a bad RAM board. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Nick Allen via cctalk Date: 2018-01-01 10:32 AM (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Help diagnosing boot issue SWTPC 6800 Hey everyone, Happy New Years!? I am thankful for an active community that enjoys helping each other learn, and today I am coming with an ask for help. I have a SWTPC 6800 and ADM3A terminal, I can get it to boot, and when it boots it will continue to boot for several hours.? But getting it to successfully boot takes upwards of 100 power OFF and ON cycles.? The other 99 times, I get a continuous stream of random ASCII characters (see video link below).? It's my first time seeing this type of issue that happens intermittently, and wondering if anyone has any insights in what might be causing this.? I suspect its a faulty IC on the Processor board that resets or controls the OS reset, will need to deep dive and diagnose, but thought I would ask for some direction first. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci4vhPn-3PE Thanks in advance! -Nick From chrise at pobox.com Mon Jan 1 16:51:53 2018 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 16:51:53 -0600 Subject: Help diagnosing boot issue SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180101225153.GM6446@n0jcf.net> You should also verify that you have solid +8V and +/- 12V on the backplane. In one of my SWTPC 6800 machines, I found that the white Molex connector on the power supply filter board had degraded contacts that over time (a long time!) where heating and actually melted some of the connector shell, made the contacts further crappy and resulted in too much drop in the +8V rail so that all the downstream regulators weren't happy. I replaced the on-board connector with one on wires, repaired the toasted PCB and now the machine runs fine again. The new connector floats in the air a few inches above the PCB and this actually makes it easier to plug and unplug if needed. Chris On Monday (01/01/2018 at 02:17PM -0800), Brad H via cctalk wrote: > > > I had that happening on mine.. came down to a bad RAM board. > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Nick Allen via cctalk > Date: 2018-01-01 10:32 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Help diagnosing boot issue SWTPC 6800 > > Hey everyone, Happy New Years!? I am thankful for an active community > that enjoys helping each other learn, and today I am coming with an ask > for help. > > I have a SWTPC 6800 and ADM3A terminal, I can get it to boot, and when > it boots it will continue to boot for several hours.? But getting it to > successfully boot takes upwards of 100 power OFF and ON cycles.? The > other 99 times, I get a continuous stream of random ASCII characters > (see video link below).? It's my first time seeing this type of issue > that happens intermittently, and wondering if anyone has any insights in > what might be causing this.? I suspect its a faulty IC on the Processor > board that resets or controls the OS reset, will need to deep dive and > diagnose, but thought I would ask for some direction first. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci4vhPn-3PE > > Thanks in advance! > > -Nick > > > > -- Chris Elmquist From mail.nickallen at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 17:03:11 2018 From: mail.nickallen at gmail.com (Nick Allen) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 17:03:11 -0600 Subject: Help diagnosing boot issue SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <48fffbdb-f021-2d19-cb05-16f8e5dd7d3b@gmail.com> References: <48fffbdb-f021-2d19-cb05-16f8e5dd7d3b@gmail.com> Message-ID: <658b6d8c-d0c4-57f0-4aa6-4ca7454906aa@gmail.com> Thanks for the tips everyone!? I can confirm power is GOOD, and the problem persists even without the RAM installed (Just CPU and MP-C or MP-S board).? I am going to clean the buss connectors and see if it helps! On 1/1/2018 12:32 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Hey everyone, Happy New Years!? I am thankful for an active community > that enjoys helping each other learn, and today I am coming with an > ask for help. > > I have a SWTPC 6800 and ADM3A terminal, I can get it to boot, and when > it boots it will continue to boot for several hours.? But getting it > to successfully boot takes upwards of 100 power OFF and ON cycles.? > The other 99 times, I get a continuous stream of random ASCII > characters (see video link below).? It's my first time seeing this > type of issue that happens intermittently, and wondering if anyone has > any insights in what might be causing this.? I suspect its a faulty IC > on the Processor board that resets or controls the OS reset, will need > to deep dive and diagnose, but thought I would ask for some direction > first. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci4vhPn-3PE > > Thanks in advance! > > -Nick > > > > From mail.nickallen at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 17:34:16 2018 From: mail.nickallen at gmail.com (Nick Allen) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 17:34:16 -0600 Subject: Help diagnosing boot issue SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <658b6d8c-d0c4-57f0-4aa6-4ca7454906aa@gmail.com> References: <48fffbdb-f021-2d19-cb05-16f8e5dd7d3b@gmail.com> <658b6d8c-d0c4-57f0-4aa6-4ca7454906aa@gmail.com> Message-ID: cleaning the connector pins with a brass brush solved the issue, thanks everyone!! On 1/1/2018 5:03 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Thanks for the tips everyone!? I can confirm power is GOOD, and the > problem persists even without the RAM installed (Just CPU and MP-C or > MP-S board).? I am going to clean the buss connectors and see if it > helps! > > On 1/1/2018 12:32 PM, Nick Allen wrote: >> Hey everyone, Happy New Years!? I am thankful for an active community >> that enjoys helping each other learn, and today I am coming with an >> ask for help. >> >> I have a SWTPC 6800 and ADM3A terminal, I can get it to boot, and >> when it boots it will continue to boot for several hours. But getting >> it to successfully boot takes upwards of 100 power OFF and ON >> cycles.? The other 99 times, I get a continuous stream of random >> ASCII characters (see video link below).? It's my first time seeing >> this type of issue that happens intermittently, and wondering if >> anyone has any insights in what might be causing this.? I suspect its >> a faulty IC on the Processor board that resets or controls the OS >> reset, will need to deep dive and diagnose, but thought I would ask >> for some direction first. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci4vhPn-3PE >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> -Nick >> >> >> >> > From steven at malikoff.com Mon Jan 1 18:03:23 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 10:03:23 +1000 Subject: ID some core memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill said > Just curious...can anyone id the system that used these two types of core > memory? I am thinking the first is a hand-made custom core, but the 2nd is > definitely from a commercial system. Looks kind of IBM-ish but it's > nothing I can ID. It's not an IBM 1401 I don't think. > http://vintagecomputer.net/core-memory/ > Thanks > Bill It's not a 1401 core plane. Here are a couple of pictures of what (I am pretty sure) is a 1401 core plane that I have from my dad: http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/IBM_1401_core_memory_plane_1.jpg Close-up. Has a sharp molded corner and the grooves for the wires: http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/IBM_1401_core_memory_plane_2.jpg Refer to PDF page 12 of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/1401/A24-1403-5_1401_Reference_Apr62.pdf for another photo of this. Steve. From steven at malikoff.com Mon Jan 1 18:03:23 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 10:03:23 +1000 Subject: ID some core memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill said > Just curious...can anyone id the system that used these two types of core > memory? I am thinking the first is a hand-made custom core, but the 2nd is > definitely from a commercial system. Looks kind of IBM-ish but it's > nothing I can ID. It's not an IBM 1401 I don't think. > http://vintagecomputer.net/core-memory/ > Thanks > Bill It's not a 1401 core plane. Here are a couple of pictures of what (I am pretty sure) is a 1401 core plane that I have from my dad: http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/IBM_1401_core_memory_plane_1.jpg Close-up. Has a sharp molded corner and the grooves for the wires: http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/IBM_1401_core_memory_plane_2.jpg Refer to PDF page 12 of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/1401/A24-1403-5_1401_Reference_Apr62.pdf for another photo of this. Steve. From mail.nickallen at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 18:12:07 2018 From: mail.nickallen at gmail.com (Nick Allen) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 18:12:07 -0600 Subject: Help diagnosing boot issue SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: <48fffbdb-f021-2d19-cb05-16f8e5dd7d3b@gmail.com> <658b6d8c-d0c4-57f0-4aa6-4ca7454906aa@gmail.com> Message-ID: I spoke too soon, I think simply cleaning the contacts rattled a short and dumb luck made it boot the first time.? By pressing the fatherboard I can see characters corrupt when running a program, guess I need to do some more digging to find out exactly where and why this is happening. On 1/1/2018 5:34 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > cleaning the connector pins with a brass brush solved the issue, > thanks everyone!! > > > On 1/1/2018 5:03 PM, Nick Allen wrote: >> Thanks for the tips everyone!? I can confirm power is GOOD, and the >> problem persists even without the RAM installed (Just CPU and MP-C or >> MP-S board).? I am going to clean the buss connectors and see if it >> helps! >> >> On 1/1/2018 12:32 PM, Nick Allen wrote: >>> Hey everyone, Happy New Years!? I am thankful for an active >>> community that enjoys helping each other learn, and today I am >>> coming with an ask for help. >>> >>> I have a SWTPC 6800 and ADM3A terminal, I can get it to boot, and >>> when it boots it will continue to boot for several hours. But >>> getting it to successfully boot takes upwards of 100 power OFF and >>> ON cycles.? The other 99 times, I get a continuous stream of random >>> ASCII characters (see video link below). It's my first time seeing >>> this type of issue that happens intermittently, and wondering if >>> anyone has any insights in what might be causing this.? I suspect >>> its a faulty IC on the Processor board that resets or controls the >>> OS reset, will need to deep dive and diagnose, but thought I would >>> ask for some direction first. >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci4vhPn-3PE >>> >>> Thanks in advance! >>> >>> -Nick >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Jan 1 18:13:36 2018 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 19:13:36 -0500 Subject: Help diagnosing boot issue SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: <48fffbdb-f021-2d19-cb05-16f8e5dd7d3b@gmail.com> <658b6d8c-d0c4-57f0-4aa6-4ca7454906aa@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1afd01d3835e$88b7fcc0$9a27f640$@verizon.net> Unless your storage is very dry and clean, I'm afraid you will find that the problem returns if you don't protect those pins/sockets with some sort of electrical grease. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nick Allen via cctalk Sent: Monday, January 01, 2018 6:34 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Help diagnosing boot issue SWTPC 6800 cleaning the connector pins with a brass brush solved the issue, thanks everyone!! On 1/1/2018 5:03 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Thanks for the tips everyone! I can confirm power is GOOD, and the > problem persists even without the RAM installed (Just CPU and MP-C or > MP-S board). I am going to clean the buss connectors and see if it > helps! > > On 1/1/2018 12:32 PM, Nick Allen wrote: >> Hey everyone, Happy New Years! I am thankful for an active community >> that enjoys helping each other learn, and today I am coming with an >> ask for help. >> >> I have a SWTPC 6800 and ADM3A terminal, I can get it to boot, and >> when it boots it will continue to boot for several hours. But getting >> it to successfully boot takes upwards of 100 power OFF and ON >> cycles. The other 99 times, I get a continuous stream of random >> ASCII characters (see video link below). It's my first time seeing >> this type of issue that happens intermittently, and wondering if >> anyone has any insights in what might be causing this. I suspect its >> a faulty IC on the Processor board that resets or controls the OS >> reset, will need to deep dive and diagnose, but thought I would ask >> for some direction first. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci4vhPn-3PE >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> -Nick >> >> >> >> > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 18:52:11 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 18:52:11 -0600 Subject: ID some core memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: could be hp or phillips? On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Bill said > > Just curious...can anyone id the system that used these two types of core > > memory? I am thinking the first is a hand-made custom core, but the 2nd > is > > definitely from a commercial system. Looks kind of IBM-ish but it's > > nothing I can ID. It's not an IBM 1401 I don't think. > > http://vintagecomputer.net/core-memory/ > > Thanks > > Bill > > It's not a 1401 core plane. Here are a couple of pictures of what (I am > pretty sure) is a 1401 core plane that I have from my dad: > http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/IBM_1401_core_memory_plane_1.jpg > Close-up. Has a sharp molded corner and the grooves for the wires: > http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/IBM_1401_core_memory_plane_2.jpg > > Refer to PDF page 12 of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ > ibm/1401/A24-1403-5_1401_Reference_Apr62.pdf > for another photo of this. > > Steve. > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 1 19:06:04 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 20:06:04 -0500 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: <421181da-c51b-62a1-6090-b53f71b25aa0@froghouse.org> References: <20180101203321.2AE5118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <421181da-c51b-62a1-6090-b53f71b25aa0@froghouse.org> Message-ID: > On Jan 1, 2018, at 3:57 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > > On 01/01/2018 03:33 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >>> From: Paul Koning >> >>> The only asynchronous computer I can think of is the Dutch ARRA 1 >> >> Isn't the KA10 basically asynchronous? (I know, it has a clock, but I'm >> not sure how much it is used for.) > > This was my understanding, as well. > > More recently there was the AMULET processors designed at the University > of Manchester. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMULET_microprocessor > > One of the stories I read about the AMULET was that they wrote a little > program to blink an LED where the timing was determined by a busy loop. > If they sat a hot cup of coffee on the processor, the light would blink > slower; a cup of ice water and it would blink faster. Neat. I found this 2011 paper that's interesting: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~nowick/nowick-singh-ieee-dt-11-published.pdf The company I was trying to remember is Fulcrum, which was bought by Intel; they had morphed into an Ethernet switch chip company by then. A pretty good one, as I recall. But the original concept was a microprocessor, possibly a MIPS one, I don't remember. The idea was that the chip speed would depend on how fast things happened to work, so different chips would run at different speeds due to process variations, and power supply and temperature changes would also affect things just as you described. The paper I just mentioned lists a number of early computer designs as asynchronous, though it doesn't mention the ARRA 1, probably because it's not well known (a problem common to Dutch computers). Also, those other computers did work. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 1 20:23:10 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 21:23:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: QSIC update and request Message-ID: <20180102022310.9004E18C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: David Bridgham > I could ask for a lot more really but that's pretty good. IMO we're 'over the hump' on the prototype phase of the project. The complete QBUS interface (including DMA and interrupts) are done, and very thoroughly tested, and now we have the SD interface up and running too. Once we get all this running reliably, IMO the remaining work (configuration, simulating the RP11, etc) will be relatively simple and straightforward. Then we get to the next major lump - turning out the production unit. > Here's a picture to my test setup: Looking at that brings up another piece of progress to report; that paper version of the indicator panel inlay is just about obsolete; we have produced blank inlays (the correct shape to fit into the bezel, but with just the back black layer with all the holes), and the next move is to produce ones with the white captions silk-screened on the front, just like the originals: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html So 'very soon' we should have a complete working indicator panel! A lot slower, overall, than we had hoped, but we're getting there! Noel From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 1 21:06:41 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 19:06:41 -0800 Subject: ID some core memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/01/2018 04:03 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > It's not a 1401 core plane. Here are a couple of pictures of what (I am pretty sure) is a 1401 core plane that I have from my dad: > http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/IBM_1401_core_memory_plane_1.jpg > Close-up. Has a sharp molded corner and the grooves for the wires: > http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/IBM_1401_core_memory_plane_2.jpg > > Refer to PDF page 12 of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/1401/A24-1403-5_1401_Reference_Apr62.pdf > for another photo of this. I've got one of those sitting in a desk drawer, if you need closeups. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Jan 1 22:30:19 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 20:30:19 -0800 Subject: Boot RXS In-Reply-To: <20180101183538.35B7618C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180101183538.35B7618C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0dddacdb-4b47-3b05-5d67-8ac0df1cfeb6@jwsss.com> On 1/1/2018 10:35 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: John Welch > > > SAV -- SOFTWARE CONFIGURED FOR ENABLE HARDWARE WHICH DOES NOT RESPOND. > > HALTED. > > Does anyone have any hints on how I can guess what I need to add? > > Well, Able made a thing called an 'Able ENABLE' which allowed use of more > than 256KB of physical memory on any UNIBUS -11 with memory mapping hardware > which wasn't an -11/70-44-24. That's probably what it's talking about. I had a meeting with Ken Omohundro on 12/7 and will be having dinner with him again soon.? I'll ask him about it.? I know he doesn't have any records left, but I could take him your notes and see what he recalls.? Also I can perhaps get engineer names and try to track them down. I hope to get a biography and history of his companies including Able, and figure somewhere to get it stored. thanks Jim > We had one on our -11/45 at MIT, BITD. So I have the programming spec for it, > back-created from the source code for that machine. And Clem Cole was nice > enough to follow up on an old message in an email list archive, and dig up > some documentation and scan it in. > > I was planning on doing a page for it on the Computer History wiki, haven't > got a round tuit yet, though. > > They are, AFAIK, complete unobtainium in physical form; I've been looking for > years, never seen one. > > If someone wanted to upgrade SIMH to support it, we do know enough to do that. > > Noel > > From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Mon Jan 1 22:36:25 2018 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 15:36:25 +1100 Subject: ID some core memory In-Reply-To: <5A4A6FC6.5020207@pico-systems.com> References: <5A4A6FC6.5020207@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 4:28 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > wires by 1965 or earlier. it does appear to have 40 bit planes, however, Elliott 503 and 803 were 40-bit machines, 39 data bits + one parity bit and from the early 1960s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliott_803 We have the backing-core stack for the 503 and Bill's stack is quite different. We also have the main core stack for the 503 but not seen directly as the example we have is still in its cooling shroud. I can't find pictures of the 803 core stack but here are pictures of the 503 core stacks: https://photos.app.goo.gl/hNA0urEpkPkOhEm22 503 Backing magnetic core store: https://goo.gl/photos/R2xT85NN1c9DmBZk7 From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Jan 1 22:52:35 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 20:52:35 -0800 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: <20180101203321.2AE5118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <421181da-c51b-62a1-6090-b53f71b25aa0@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <890BCF6C-4CBE-4CF4-81E9-2431968B77B5@shaw.ca> On 2018-Jan-01, at 5:06 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Jan 1, 2018, at 3:57 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: >> On 01/01/2018 03:33 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>>> From: Paul Koning >>> >>>> The only asynchronous computer I can think of is the Dutch ARRA 1 >>> >>> Isn't the KA10 basically asynchronous? (I know, it has a clock, but I'm >>> not sure how much it is used for.) >> >> This was my understanding, as well. >> >> More recently there was the AMULET processors designed at the University >> of Manchester. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMULET_microprocessor >> >> One of the stories I read about the AMULET was that they wrote a little >> program to blink an LED where the timing was determined by a busy loop. >> If they sat a hot cup of coffee on the processor, the light would blink >> slower; a cup of ice water and it would blink faster. > > Neat. I found this 2011 paper that's interesting: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~nowick/nowick-singh-ieee-dt-11-published.pdf > > The company I was trying to remember is Fulcrum, which was bought by Intel; they had morphed into an Ethernet switch chip company by then. A pretty good one, as I recall. But the original concept was a microprocessor, possibly a MIPS one, I don't remember. The idea was that the chip speed would depend on how fast things happened to work, so different chips would run at different speeds due to process variations, and power supply and temperature changes would also affect things just as you described. > > The paper I just mentioned lists a number of early computer designs as asynchronous, though it doesn't mention the ARRA 1, probably because it's not well known (a problem common to Dutch computers). Also, those other computers did work. The IAS machine (1952, and in some measure a template design for modern processors) and its clones (ILLIAC, ORDVAC, MANIAC, etc.) were billed as an asynchronous design, although I haven't seen the details to see precisely what that meant in context. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 22:57:56 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 20:57:56 -0800 Subject: ID some core memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <237CF08C-DA5D-4917-AED0-C4DC7A35D587@gmail.com> Not HP. They used much smaller Ampex made core planes in the 2116. Marc > On Jan 1, 2018, at 4:52 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > could be hp or phillips? > > > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Bill said >>> Just curious...can anyone id the system that used these two types of core >>> memory? I am thinking the first is a hand-made custom core, but the 2nd >> is >>> definitely from a commercial system. Looks kind of IBM-ish but it's >>> nothing I can ID. It's not an IBM 1401 I don't think. >>> http://vintagecomputer.net/core-memory/ >>> Thanks >>> Bill >> >> It's not a 1401 core plane. Here are a couple of pictures of what (I am >> pretty sure) is a 1401 core plane that I have from my dad: >> http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/IBM_1401_core_memory_plane_1.jpg >> Close-up. Has a sharp molded corner and the grooves for the wires: >> http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/IBM_1401_core_memory_plane_2.jpg >> >> Refer to PDF page 12 of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ >> ibm/1401/A24-1403-5_1401_Reference_Apr62.pdf >> for another photo of this. >> >> Steve. >> >> From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Jan 2 00:04:06 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 22:04:06 -0800 Subject: QSIC update and request In-Reply-To: <014453c1-5157-bfe7-d6c9-251eb04d3df3@froghouse.org> References: <014453c1-5157-bfe7-d6c9-251eb04d3df3@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <91486ABA-C073-4745-8DC8-4BA0741B3D7A@nf6x.net> This looks pretty interesting! I think I've managed to miss previous discussion of it. I wonder if it might also be useful in any of the QBUS MicroVAXen? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From steven at malikoff.com Tue Jan 2 02:03:25 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 18:03:25 +1000 Subject: Foxboro drum indicator panel Message-ID: Seeing Noel's blinkenlights project and list of panels, for interest's sake here is a picture and decription of the Foxboro drum indicator panel from one of the hardware manuals. http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/foxboro/FOXBORO_Drum_indicator_panel_1.jpg http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/foxboro/FOXBORO_Drum_indicator_panel_2.jpg There was no trace of any panel nor drum when I recovered the Foxboro 2/10 (PDP-11/15) but I did find the print set for the above panel (schematics only, no panel hardware details), and a set of RC11 modules (6 flip chips) wrapped with an error list printout. I'm not even sure if there was a drum fitted, as none of the notes I found for the actual installation mention it. There was no other drive in the rack when I got there, so I'm baffled as to what device the cards went to. Steve. From trash80 at internode.on.net Tue Jan 2 03:32:44 2018 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 20:32:44 +1100 Subject: SOT - Ultimate Classic Computing Geekdom Message-ID: <089601d383ac$a54d3370$efe79a50$@internode.on.net> Hi folks - the family surprised me for Christmas by all contributing to some custom plates for my new car. This might tell you how well they know me. http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/274143f7eae640a16c276e89b953503d/ Kevin Parker P: 0418 815 527 From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Tue Jan 2 04:07:17 2018 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 11:07:17 +0100 Subject: RepaIr stepper motor of an 8 inch drive ? Message-ID: <44fe52f5-f411-5bb9-6566-17016dd9cc51@greenmail.ch> Did anyone ever succeed in repairing a stepper motor Currently restoring a datapoint floppy drive that has been stored in a disastrous environment. The head stepper has a loose wire, currently I cannot even see how to open the stepper motor. It is a Warner Electric SM-024-0045-AS Cannot see any marking as to who the druive supplier is, it might have been Datapoint themselves. Jos From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jan 2 05:00:35 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 03:00:35 -0800 Subject: RepaIr stepper motor of an 8 inch drive ? In-Reply-To: <44fe52f5-f411-5bb9-6566-17016dd9cc51@greenmail.ch> References: <44fe52f5-f411-5bb9-6566-17016dd9cc51@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: On 1/2/2018 2:07 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > > > Cannot see any marking as to who the druive supplier is, it might have > been Datapoint themselves. FWIW, the datapoint systems I've had (no longer) had CDC guts.? At least I bought a number of MMD 160 SMD drives and other scrap from a datapoint repair operation. thanks Jim From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 06:51:56 2018 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 10:51:56 -0200 Subject: SOT - Ultimate Classic Computing Geekdom In-Reply-To: <089601d383ac$a54d3370$efe79a50$@internode.on.net> References: <089601d383ac$a54d3370$efe79a50$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: Awesome!! :D Enviado do meu Tele-Movel On Jan 2, 2018 7:32 AM, "Kevin Parker via cctalk" wrote: > > > Hi folks - the family surprised me for Christmas by all contributing to > some custom plates for my new car. > > > > This might tell you how well they know me. > > > > http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/ > 274143f7eae640a16c276e89b953503d/ > > > > > > > > > > Kevin Parker > > P: 0418 815 527 > > > > > > From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 07:45:04 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 14:45:04 +0100 Subject: RepaIr stepper motor of an 8 inch drive ? In-Reply-To: <44fe52f5-f411-5bb9-6566-17016dd9cc51@greenmail.ch> References: <44fe52f5-f411-5bb9-6566-17016dd9cc51@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: 2018-01-02 11:07 GMT+01:00 jos via cctalk : > > Did anyone ever succeed in repairing a stepper motor > > Currently restoring a datapoint floppy drive that has been stored in a > disastrous environment. > > The head stepper has a loose wire, currently I cannot even see how to open > the stepper motor. > > It is a Warner Electric SM-024-0045-AS > > Cannot see any marking as to who the druive supplier is, it might have > been Datapoint themselves. Can you provide a picture of the drive to see if it possible to identify it. I have a couple of CDC drives, BR8A5D, which I have little use for. Single sided: http://i.imgur.com/eP3m06n.jpg http://i.imgur.com/EA91ayu.jpg http://i.imgur.com/cMp76YA.jpg http://i.imgur.com/pWpmdX6.jpg /Mattis > > > Jos > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 2 08:01:53 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 09:01:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: QSIC update and request Message-ID: <20180102140153.A4AF018C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mark J. Blair > I wonder if it might also be useful in any of the QBUS MicroVAXen? Hardwarewise, it should be fine. Softwarewise... well... The issue is that we're currently only planning to emulate the RK11 and RP11, because we're not up for the hassle involved in emulating more recent controllers. (That's not an issue for the systems we want to run.) We looked at the RP04, and _full_ emulation even of that one is a significant amount of work. (I stress the 'full' because a partial, simple emulation might not be too bad, but since we have no idea what various OS's will expect to be there, it's not clear how much use such a partial emulation would be.) However, that presents a problem. There are no 22-bit versions of either (in fact, there's no QBUS RP11 at all; and the QBUS RK11 is restricted to Q16, for reasons that surpass me). 22-bit operation is needed to make them really useable as mass storage under Unix, for swapping (because all file system access is buffered through low memory, purely file system use would be OK without Q22 support) - at least on -11's with more than 256KB of memory. (Probably DEC OS's too, but I know nothing of them.) So, in addition to the dead-stock emulations of the two, we will also support slightly 'adjusted' versions of the controllers, to have an 'address extension' register (in exactly the same way the RLV12 has an extra register over the RLV11). (And we're also going to have an adjusted version of the RP11, which extends the size of the disk, using unused bits/values in the disk address registers, to allow up to 1TB on an 'RP11-D', as we're calling it. Hey, if you're going to change the controller _at all_... But I digress.) Anyway, you can see where this is going. For people who can tweak their drivers, no biggie. The changes aren't major - a line or two. For people who want to run stock software... I don't know enough about how the QBUS VAX systems use their disks. Will uVAX OS's run with only an RKV11-D for mass storage? Somehow I doubt it.. I assume on the later ones (the ones with the private memory bus so they can have more than 4MB of memory) there's some sort of QBUS map, to map from the QBUS' 22-bit address space, to the full memory. But does the hardware and software expect to use the entire 22-bit address space, or are they prepared to limit it (e.g. for working with an RKV11-D), or what? I suppose we could add the RLV12 to the list of things we emulate; that's not _that_ complicated a controller. The problem is that RL's aren't that big (10MB), and that gets to be an issue with later OS's. And even then VAX OS's might not run off an RLV12 - I just don't know. Getting around this is all, of course, a SMOP (Small Matter of Programming), since a new FPGA load, with support for more emulations, can be installed on an existing QSIC at any time. Now, whether Dave would be interested in supporting later devices, or whether someone else could be convinced to emulate something more modern ... who knows? Noel From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 08:06:48 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 15:06:48 +0100 Subject: FFA: Amstrad Joyce (USA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1 January 2018 at 20:55, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > There probably aren't that many 120V versions of the Amstrad Joyce Word > processor, but I've got one here. I replaced the 3" CF floppy drive > with a 720K 3.5" drive and modified some boot disks. > > The system now supports 3.5" double-sided media and is fully populated > with 512K of DRAM and runs CP/M 3.0. > > Unit with keyboard only, free to good home; sorry but I don't have the > printer. > > I need to get this thing out of the way; if it goes unclaimed by January > 15, off it goes to NextStep recycling. Not a request -- I'm in continental Europe and have 2 PCWs anyway, a 9512 & a 9512+. But I'm curious -- which model? The basic 8256? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 2 08:28:11 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 06:28:11 -0800 Subject: FFA: Amstrad Joyce (USA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8fa03572-7ec2-dfce-b88a-0cd5568b723b@sydex.com> On 01/02/2018 06:06 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Not a request -- I'm in continental Europe and have 2 PCWs anyway, a > 9512 & a 9512+. But I'm curious -- which model? The basic 8256? Yup, that's the one, as sold by Sears in the US. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 2 08:35:26 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 09:35:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Boot RXS Message-ID: <20180102143526.7C97918C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jim Stephens > I had a meeting with Ken Omohundro on 12/7 and will be having dinner > with him again soon. I'll ask him about it. I know he doesn't have any > records left, but I could take him your notes and see what he recalls. Thanks very much for that offer; we do think we know more or less how it works (software-wise we always knew, since I wrote the code for it on the MIT system, and that, and some other code to run it, still survive; the hardware details had faded from my memory, but the documentation that Clem Cole found cleared the high-level details of that up, mostly); however, there are two areas in which he might be able to help. The first is some very low-level details of how it worked, in terms of the UNIBUS interaction; we can surmise, from the way it's installed, how it more or less has to work (details below), but it would be nice to have it confirmed. The second is some details of how some of the optional stuff for using existing memory, non-DMA devices, etc worked. (I honestly forget the details of what I couldn't work out there; I'll have to go study it again.) The first is that unlike my initial recollections, both the CPU and DMA devices are on a single UNIBUS segment which feeds into the ENABLE. There are two different 18->22 maps in the ENABLE, one for CPU cycles, one for DMA (the latter perfectly emulates the UNIBUS map on the -11/70 and /44). So, more or less by definition, it has to be able to distinguish CPU bus cycles from DMA device bus cycles on the incoming UNIBUS segment. But how, exactly? I can _theorize_ how it did it, but this is a topic not covered in the still-extant documentation. I _surmise_ that it was something like it watches NPR/SACK for a DMA cycle (it won't see the NPG, of course), then waits for BBSY to cycle, at which point it knows it's a DMA cycle; if not, the current cycle must be from the CPU. He may or may not remember the details, but if he can, that would be great. (For software emulation, we don't need to know this, but it would be good, for completeness' sake, to know. Also, I have a fantasy that the UNIBUS version of the QSIC will also include ENABLE-type functionality, and although we could probably work it out on our own, it would be good to have the benefit of anything he can recall - any not-so-obvious gotcha's, etc.) It would also be interesting to know why he just didn't use a 3-bus design: i) UNIBUS in from the CPU, ii) UNIBUS in from DMA devices, and iii) EUB to the memory. I suspect that the answer is that they way they did it, they could use a stock MUD backplane (being used in EUB mode), and only one over-the-back connector into the ENABLE. On the second, I'll have to go re-read the documentation, and get back. (Although now that I think about it, I may have just figured out, not only the question, but also the answer.) > I hope to get a biography and history of his companies including Able, > and figure somewhere to get it stored. The Computer History wiki would seem an ideal place for this sort of content? (Depending on how long the bio is; but the company info would _definitely_ be very much on target for there.) Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 2 08:38:38 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 09:38:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Boot RXS Message-ID: <20180102143838.DD6D118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Welch >>> SAV -- SOFTWARE CONFIGURED FOR ENABLE HARDWARE WHICH DOES NOT RESPOND. > I can boot RSX from a different device (or RT-11, or unix maybe) and > then mount this RL02 pack and go exploring through its contents. Is > there a possibility that I may find what is missing that way? Sorry, I'm confused by this? The message (above) seems to indicate there's _hardware_ missing. How is looking through the disk contents going to help with that? Or is your point that you might be able to find a version of the system which does not use that hardware? Perhaps; there's no way to know without looking. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 07:28:00 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 08:28:00 -0500 Subject: Semi OT: rocky 518HV Message-ID: Anyone have one of these single board embedded computers in use? I have one that is unresponsive and I believe I need to replace the Dallas battery chip, similar to other computers like the SunSparc 10 that does nothing without a working NVRAM battery chip installed. Any opinions/experience with this card out there? I have already ordered a new battery but while I wait I'd like to throw this one out there. Its from the later 90's not yet "vintage" so that's why the header semi OT. http://www.voxtechnologies.com/SBCs/pdf/icp/rocky-518hv-ver4-0.pdf Bill From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Tue Jan 2 08:05:54 2018 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 08:05:54 -0600 Subject: Boot RXS In-Reply-To: <20180101183538.35B7618C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180101183538.35B7618C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6ec6a62a-514c-e932-0693-c79a1faea951@hal-pc.org> I can boot RSX from a different device (or RT-11, or unix maybe) and then mount this RL02 pack and go exploring through its contents.? Is there a possibility that I may find what is missing that way? On 1/1/2018 12:35 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: John Welch1 > > > SAV -- SOFTWARE CONFIGURED FOR ENABLE HARDWARE WHICH DOES NOT RESPOND. > > HALTED. > > Does anyone have any hints on how I can guess what I need to add? > > Well, Able made a thing called an 'Able ENABLE' which allowed use of more > than 256KB of physical memory on any UNIBUS -11 with memory mapping hardware > which wasn't an -11/70-44-24. That's probably what it's talking about. > > We had one on our -11/45 at MIT, BITD. So I have the programming spec for it, > back-created from the source code for that machine. And Clem Cole was nice > enough to follow up on an old message in an email list archive, and dig up > some documentation and scan it in. > > I was planning on doing a page for it on the Computer History wiki, haven't > got a round tuit yet, though. > > They are, AFAIK, complete unobtainium in physical form; I've been looking for > years, never seen one. > > If someone wanted to upgrade SIMH to support it, we do know enough to do that. > > Noel -- Sincerely, John Welch 281-353-4706 Home 713-725-7017 Cell :qw From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Jan 2 09:09:00 2018 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 15:09:00 +0000 Subject: repairing a dead PDP-11/35 Message-ID: Best wishes for 2018! I have been busy trying to repair my dead 11/35. The system was working, but there was one screw loose that mounts the system units in the BA11 box ... that screw created a short circuit :-( After powering the 11/35, ENA/HALT on HALT, and toggling the LOAD ADRS switch, all DATA lamps go on, and after that the machine is totally non-responsive. I installed the KM11 replica from Guy Sotomayor (at last, after 7 years, I have soldered one of the kits that I had since 2011-2012!). With the KM11, I can step the microcode right from power up. When I toggle LOAD ADRS I see that the SWITCH signal (via the 7474 flipflop) is set, but when the microcode checks *which* toggle was activated it decides that none was activated. I measured the signals that play a role here, and all looks fine. Now, what gets me puzzled. If I toggle the LOAD ADRS switch *and hold it pressed down*, then, when I step the microcode, the branch that handles the LOAD ADRS switch actually does get executed, and the ADDRESS lamps on the console show the switch register settings. Anybody for clues how to proceed? If you are interested, I made a write up of my testing in (way) more detail: www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-35/repair/repair35page.html Thanks for any advice, Henk From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jan 2 09:44:05 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2018 09:44:05 -0600 Subject: Boot RXS In-Reply-To: <0dddacdb-4b47-3b05-5d67-8ac0df1cfeb6@jwsss.com> References: <20180101183538.35B7618C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0dddacdb-4b47-3b05-5d67-8ac0df1cfeb6@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5A4BA8C5.1060302@pico-systems.com> On 01/01/2018 10:30 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/1/2018 10:35 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> > From: John Welch >> >> > SAV -- SOFTWARE CONFIGURED FOR ENABLE HARDWARE >> WHICH DOES NOT RESPOND. >> > HALTED. >> > Does anyone have any hints on how I can guess what >> I need to add? >> >> Well, Able made a thing called an 'Able ENABLE' which >> allowed use of more >> than 256KB of physical memory on any UNIBUS -11 with >> memory mapping hardware >> which wasn't an -11/70-44-24. That's probably what it's >> talking about. > I had a meeting with Ken Omohundro on 12/7 and will be > having dinner with him again soon. I'll ask him about > it. I know he doesn't have any records left, but I could > take him your notes and see what he recalls. Also I can > perhaps get engineer names and try to track them down. > > I hope to get a biography and history of his companies > including Able, and figure somewhere to get it stored. > Hey, this has to be a guy I met at Washington University (St. Louis, MO.) in about 1971 or so. Jon From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Tue Jan 2 09:11:19 2018 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (JCWELCH) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 09:11:19 -0600 Subject: Boot RXS In-Reply-To: <20180102143838.DD6D118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180102143838.DD6D118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <73A95BA3-1EE8-4172-BABB-0FBBDB898632@hal-pc.org> I am not sure how RSX boots. Does the message give any indication where in the boot process things go wrong? I imagine that the boot process loads one part at a time with each part being something I would think of as a driver. So I was wondering if there would be a way to look at the boot blocks and say this starts with XXXXXXXX so it is for device YYYY, then the next thing to load is AAAAAAAA and that is a ZZZZ and so on until it finally turns execution over to $startup (or whatever the equivalent of autoexec.bat from DOS is). That sort of thing is what I meant by mounting and examining the disk. On the other hand might it be possible boot from another installation, attach and mount this pack, replace the boot blocks and then boot this system? I do have a six volume set of SYSGEN. I suppose I could make a new one. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 2, 2018, at 8:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: John Welch > >>>> SAV -- SOFTWARE CONFIGURED FOR ENABLE HARDWARE WHICH DOES NOT RESPOND. > >> I can boot RSX from a different device (or RT-11, or unix maybe) and >> then mount this RL02 pack and go exploring through its contents. Is >> there a possibility that I may find what is missing that way? > > Sorry, I'm confused by this? The message (above) seems to indicate there's > _hardware_ missing. How is looking through the disk contents going to help > with that? > > Or is your point that you might be able to find a version of the system which > does not use that hardware? Perhaps; there's no way to know without looking. > > Noel From thorh at ismennt.is Tue Jan 2 10:58:51 2018 From: thorh at ismennt.is (Thorhallur Ragnarsson) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 16:58:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com> <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <2092619893.9829307.1514912331523.JavaMail.zimbra@ismennt.is> Hello Rob. The power supply voltage might be a bit too high. Early Spectrums expected a "9V" DC power supply. The DC/DC converter that makes +12V, +12VA, -5V and -12V(AC) in some early versions (up to Issue 3, IIRC) stops working if the input voltage is too high. Happened frequently around midnight here in Iceland when one had typed in (but not saved) a long program, because normal people then turned off their lights, and the mains voltage went a bit up :) Best regards Thor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Jarratt via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 11:46:13 AM Subject: RE: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting Replying to my own mail to consolidate my answers to the two very kind responses I got. In answer to Adrian: Regarding the PSU, I actually have two Spectrums, the same PSU seems to power the other one OK. I quickly checked it and it is outputting 13.4V and there is no ripple to speak of. So I think the PSU is OK. In answer to Jon: I did look at the power rails. The output from the 7805 looks absolutely fine and the inputs to some of the ICs looks fine. However the Vcc input to the Z80 did look a bit noisy, I found there are quite a few spikes, their amplitude appears to be 600mV. I temporarily added a 3.5uF capacitor I happened to have lying around, this reduced the amplitude of the spikes to about 200mV, but didn't affect the behaviour. I am not sure if these spikes could cause the reset behaviour though. I suppose the spikes could mean either there is a faulty IC (finding that won't be easy), or there is a bad capacitor somewhere. I did replace most of the electrolytic ones, but not all of them, so that is probably a good line of inquiry. I don't think it will be a bad memory location/region in the ROM though because a lot of the resets occur in a loop, so it can read the locations, although I suppose it is possible that the logic levels on the address/data paths could be marginal and occasionally resulting in bad data. My next step was going to be to discover how to get my logic analyser to capture the addresses *and* the resulting data, but I think I will double check the capacitors first. Happy New Year! Rob From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jan 2 11:45:46 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 12:45:46 -0500 Subject: QSIC update and request In-Reply-To: <20180102140153.A4AF018C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180102140153.A4AF018C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <634ca763-0fb0-9caa-abca-2f3d9b7806c2@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-01-02 9:01 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Mark J. Blair > > > I wonder if it might also be useful in any of the QBUS MicroVAXen? > > Hardwarewise, it should be fine. Softwarewise... well... > ... > Anyway, you can see where this is going. For people who can tweak their > drivers, no biggie. The changes aren't major - a line or two. For people who > want to run stock software... If the documentation is good enough, people in the community will be able to provide the software. > > ... > Getting around this is all, of course, a SMOP (Small Matter of Programming), > since a new FPGA load, with support for more emulations, can be installed on > an existing QSIC at any time. It seems that you aimed at producing a "platform" all along, so that's just a natural effect. --T > > Now, whether Dave would be interested in supporting later devices, or whether > someone else could be convinced to emulate something more modern ... who knows? > > Noel > From dab at froghouse.org Tue Jan 2 12:02:23 2018 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 13:02:23 -0500 Subject: QSIC update and request In-Reply-To: <634ca763-0fb0-9caa-abca-2f3d9b7806c2@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20180102140153.A4AF018C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <634ca763-0fb0-9caa-abca-2f3d9b7806c2@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <09008443-dd89-670f-556d-522cd165aa69@froghouse.org> On 01/02/2018 12:45 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > If the documentation is good enough, people in the community will be > able to provide the software. The quick answer is that it's pretty simple.? We take the cylinder/head/sector addresses and consider them a Linear Block Address.? Then we look around the device registers and pick up a few more bits that were unused in the RP11 and we end up with a 28-bit Linear Block Address which works out to a ridiculously huge disk for any PDP-11 ever conceived.? But yeah, we'll document it. There will also be an entirely new programming interface into the QSIC itself, mainly having to do with configuration (like whether or not the RP11 implementation is stock or extended and how portions of the SD cards are mapped to various disk packs mounted on the emulated disk drives).? I intend to write that up too so that people are able to write programs for their favorite OS that drive the device however they wish.? I may joke about pointing people to the source to figure out how it works (it was hard to write, it should be hard to read) but I actually quite like well-done documentation and will endeavor to produce some. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 2 12:13:44 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 13:13:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: QSIC update and request Message-ID: <20180102181344.A763718C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Toby Thain > If the documentation is good enough, people in the community will be > able to provide the software. You mean, host drivers? Yeah, that documentation will be pretty trivial: 'there's this extra register, just like the one in the RLV12; the top 6 bits of the DMA memory address go in there - the bottom two bits are mirrored into the two extended memory bits in the CSR'. For the 'extended' RP11, not much more than that. If you mean the 'software' for additional controllers - that would be a _lot_ harder (plus to which it's an entirely different tool-chain, yadda-yadda). 'Use the source, Luke!', I'm probably afraid... Noel From dab at froghouse.org Tue Jan 2 12:17:53 2018 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 13:17:53 -0500 Subject: QSIC update and request In-Reply-To: <20180102181344.A763718C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180102181344.A763718C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7b33f8a2-afd7-0b2f-36d1-b19851415864@froghouse.org> On 01/02/2018 01:13 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > If you mean the 'software' for additional controllers - that would be a _lot_ > harder (plus to which it's an entirely different tool-chain, yadda-yadda). > 'Use the source, Luke!', I'm probably afraid... Oh, I hadn't thought of Toby possibly meaning that.? Yeah, I'm unlikely to write up much documentation on the internals of the QSIC for people who want to add other devices.? However, not only will the source be available, I'll be around (hopefully) and will be quite willing to answer questions.? Shoot, if anyone shows interest I'll probably talk their ear off about it. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 2 12:18:26 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 18:18:26 -0000 Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: <2092619893.9829307.1514912331523.JavaMail.zimbra@ismennt.is> References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com> <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> <2092619893.9829307.1514912331523.JavaMail.zimbra@ismennt.is> Message-ID: <00b101d383f6$150997a0$3f1cc6e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Thorhallur Ragnarsson [mailto:thorh at ismennt.is] > Sent: 02 January 2018 16:59 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting > > Hello Rob. > > The power supply voltage might be a bit too high. > Actually I tested that voltage with the PSU not under any load. I just tested it connected to the machine and the voltage is 10.15V. Still a bit more than 9V though. I'll give it a go with my bench PSU a bit later and see if it works any better at 9V. > Early Spectrums expected a "9V" DC power supply. > The DC/DC converter that makes +12V, +12VA, -5V and -12V(AC) in some early > versions (up to Issue 3, IIRC) stops working if the input voltage is too high. > > Happened frequently around midnight here in Iceland when one had typed in > (but not saved) a long program, because normal people then turned off their > lights, and the mains voltage went a bit up :) > > Best regards > > Thor. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rob Jarratt via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 11:46:13 AM > Subject: RE: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting > > Replying to my own mail to consolidate my answers to the two very kind > responses I got. > > In answer to Adrian: Regarding the PSU, I actually have two Spectrums, the > same PSU seems to power the other one OK. I quickly checked it and it is > outputting 13.4V and there is no ripple to speak of. So I think the PSU is OK. > > In answer to Jon: I did look at the power rails. The output from the 7805 looks > absolutely fine and the inputs to some of the ICs looks fine. However the Vcc > input to the Z80 did look a bit noisy, I found there are quite a few spikes, their > amplitude appears to be 600mV. I temporarily added a 3.5uF capacitor I > happened to have lying around, this reduced the amplitude of the spikes to > about 200mV, but didn't affect the behaviour. I am not sure if these spikes > could cause the reset behaviour though. I suppose the spikes could mean either > there is a faulty IC (finding that won't be easy), or there is a bad capacitor > somewhere. I did replace most of the electrolytic ones, but not all of them, so > that is probably a good line of inquiry. > > I don't think it will be a bad memory location/region in the ROM though > because a lot of the resets occur in a loop, so it can read the locations, although > I suppose it is possible that the logic levels on the address/data paths could be > marginal and occasionally resulting in bad data. My next step was going to be > to discover how to get my logic analyser to capture the addresses *and* the > resulting data, but I think I will double check the capacitors first. > > Happy New Year! > > Rob From dab at froghouse.org Tue Jan 2 12:22:34 2018 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 13:22:34 -0500 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: <20180101203321.2AE5118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <421181da-c51b-62a1-6090-b53f71b25aa0@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <65bc1671-e557-3fa3-3fa8-f1a12bbc727f@froghouse.org> On 01/01/2018 08:06 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Neat. I found this 2011 paper that's interesting: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~nowick/nowick-singh-ieee-dt-11-published.pdf Thanks for this paper, Paul.? I'm quite interested in the idea of asynchronous circuit design and I hadn't come across those dynamic pipeline designs before. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jan 2 12:54:09 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 13:54:09 -0500 Subject: Asynchronous design - was Re: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: <65bc1671-e557-3fa3-3fa8-f1a12bbc727f@froghouse.org> References: <20180101203321.2AE5118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <421181da-c51b-62a1-6090-b53f71b25aa0@froghouse.org> <65bc1671-e557-3fa3-3fa8-f1a12bbc727f@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <6a65e826-a8af-61e9-3c45-07799ed02ae8@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-01-02 1:22 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > On 01/01/2018 08:06 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Neat. I found this 2011 paper that's interesting: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~nowick/nowick-singh-ieee-dt-11-published.pdf > > Thanks for this paper, Paul.? I'm quite interested in the idea of > asynchronous circuit design and I hadn't come across those dynamic > pipeline designs before. > > In this vein, Ivan Sutherland's Turing Award lecture, "Micropipelines", might be interesting: http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/70000/63532/a1988-sutherland-1.pdf --Toby From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Jan 2 12:56:02 2018 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 10:56:02 -0800 Subject: Dumping my first EPROM Message-ID: <011901d383fb$569f3260$03dd9720$@bettercomputing.net> Just posting this here in case it reaches eyes not in other forums I'm on. I decided to embark on a project that involves burning a 2708 EPROM. I've never messed with EPROMs before, so I decided to practice. What I have is a Microworks 2708 'burner' that came with a SWTPC 6800 machine I have. I figured I'd start by learning how to read 2708s. I only had one 2708 lying around to use. It was installed on a homebrew 'Dynamicro' board (also known as Jon Titus' MMD-1). It's strange because the MMD-1 doesn't use 2708s. This board also had a bunch of ICs on it that are not what the MMD-1 design calls for. So I thought this'd be an interesting EPROM to read anyway, since it might yield a hint as to what the builder was doing with this board, or if they were just using it to store random ICs. Anyway, I fired up the 6800 with the chip in the ZIF socket of the Microworks board and read the contents into memory. I then punched it back out to my PC terminal as S records. That's as far as I got. I'm wondering now how to actually dig into the contents a bit for clues as to what it is. I've seen posts in the past from people who were able to find strings, etc that sort of help as clues. Does anyone know how I'd go further here? Really curious what was on this one. Thanks! Brad From dab at froghouse.org Tue Jan 2 12:57:30 2018 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 13:57:30 -0500 Subject: Asynchronous design - was Re: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: <6a65e826-a8af-61e9-3c45-07799ed02ae8@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20180101203321.2AE5118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <421181da-c51b-62a1-6090-b53f71b25aa0@froghouse.org> <65bc1671-e557-3fa3-3fa8-f1a12bbc727f@froghouse.org> <6a65e826-a8af-61e9-3c45-07799ed02ae8@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <9a52cba5-93b5-6985-b3f9-5d66138398de@froghouse.org> The link didn't work for me but I definitely have that paper -- good stuff indeed.? I should collect my library in one place so I don't lose track of what I have. On 01/02/2018 01:54 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > In this vein, Ivan Sutherland's Turing Award lecture, "Micropipelines", > might be interesting: > > http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/70000/63532/a1988-sutherland-1.pdf > > --Toby From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 13:04:50 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 15:04:50 -0400 Subject: Dumping my first EPROM In-Reply-To: <011901d383fb$569f3260$03dd9720$@bettercomputing.net> References: <011901d383fb$569f3260$03dd9720$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: I would convert it to a binary image if you could and then look at it with a binary editor.? Most binary editors I have seen show the data in hex and also have an eye catcher on the right with the ASCII equivalent to the code points.?? Trying to find strings in S-records would be a bit painful. Paul. On 2018-01-02 2:56 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Just posting this here in case it reaches eyes not in other forums I'm on. > > > > I decided to embark on a project that involves burning a 2708 EPROM. I've > never messed with EPROMs before, so I decided to practice. What I have is a > Microworks 2708 'burner' that came with a SWTPC 6800 machine I have. I > figured I'd start by learning how to read 2708s. > > > > I only had one 2708 lying around to use. It was installed on a homebrew > 'Dynamicro' board (also known as Jon Titus' MMD-1). It's strange because > the MMD-1 doesn't use 2708s. This board also had a bunch of ICs on it that > are not what the MMD-1 design calls for. So I thought this'd be an > interesting EPROM to read anyway, since it might yield a hint as to what the > builder was doing with this board, or if they were just using it to store > random ICs. > > > > Anyway, I fired up the 6800 with the chip in the ZIF socket of the > Microworks board and read the contents into memory. I then punched it back > out to my PC terminal as S records. That's as far as I got. I'm wondering > now how to actually dig into the contents a bit for clues as to what it is. > I've seen posts in the past from people who were able to find strings, etc > that sort of help as clues. Does anyone know how I'd go further here? > Really curious what was on this one. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Brad > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jan 2 13:05:38 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 14:05:38 -0500 Subject: QSIC update and request In-Reply-To: <7b33f8a2-afd7-0b2f-36d1-b19851415864@froghouse.org> References: <20180102181344.A763718C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7b33f8a2-afd7-0b2f-36d1-b19851415864@froghouse.org> Message-ID: On 2018-01-02 1:17 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > On 01/02/2018 01:13 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > >> If you mean the 'software' for additional controllers - that would be a _lot_ >> harder (plus to which it's an entirely different tool-chain, yadda-yadda). >> 'Use the source, Luke!', I'm probably afraid... > > Oh, I hadn't thought of Toby possibly meaning that.? Yeah, I'm unlikely > to write up much documentation on the internals of the QSIC for people > who want to add other devices.? However, not only will the source be Yes, that's what I meant. In fact I thought that was the point of the device :) > available, I'll be around (hopefully) and will be quite willing to > answer questions.? Shoot, if anyone shows interest I'll probably talk > their ear off about it. > > Hope so. And there's always the blog? --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jan 2 13:07:40 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 14:07:40 -0500 Subject: Asynchronous design - was Re: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: <9a52cba5-93b5-6985-b3f9-5d66138398de@froghouse.org> References: <20180101203321.2AE5118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <421181da-c51b-62a1-6090-b53f71b25aa0@froghouse.org> <65bc1671-e557-3fa3-3fa8-f1a12bbc727f@froghouse.org> <6a65e826-a8af-61e9-3c45-07799ed02ae8@telegraphics.com.au> <9a52cba5-93b5-6985-b3f9-5d66138398de@froghouse.org> Message-ID: On 2018-01-02 1:57 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > The link didn't work for me but I definitely have that paper -- good > stuff indeed.? I should collect my library in one place so I don't lose > track of what I have. > Sorry, this is a better link: https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1283946 > > On 01/02/2018 01:54 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> In this vein, Ivan Sutherland's Turing Award lecture, "Micropipelines", >> might be interesting: >> >> http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/70000/63532/a1988-sutherland-1.pdf >> >> --Toby > > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Jan 2 13:13:06 2018 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 11:13:06 -0800 Subject: Dumping my first EPROM In-Reply-To: References: <011901d383fb$569f3260$03dd9720$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <011e01d383fd$b963b400$2c2b1c00$@bettercomputing.net> Thanks Paul. I found an srec2bin converter and ran that.. it created a 1K bin file. I then opened that with a hex editor (slick edit).. but alas, no readable strings. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Berger via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 11:05 AM To: Brad H via cctalk Subject: Re: Dumping my first EPROM I would convert it to a binary image if you could and then look at it with a binary editor. Most binary editors I have seen show the data in hex and also have an eye catcher on the right with the ASCII equivalent to the code points. Trying to find strings in S-records would be a bit painful. Paul. On 2018-01-02 2:56 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Just posting this here in case it reaches eyes not in other forums I'm on. > > > > I decided to embark on a project that involves burning a 2708 EPROM. > I've never messed with EPROMs before, so I decided to practice. What > I have is a Microworks 2708 'burner' that came with a SWTPC 6800 > machine I have. I figured I'd start by learning how to read 2708s. > > > > I only had one 2708 lying around to use. It was installed on a > homebrew 'Dynamicro' board (also known as Jon Titus' MMD-1). It's > strange because the MMD-1 doesn't use 2708s. This board also had a > bunch of ICs on it that are not what the MMD-1 design calls for. So I > thought this'd be an interesting EPROM to read anyway, since it might > yield a hint as to what the builder was doing with this board, or if > they were just using it to store random ICs. > > > > Anyway, I fired up the 6800 with the chip in the ZIF socket of the > Microworks board and read the contents into memory. I then punched it > back out to my PC terminal as S records. That's as far as I got. I'm > wondering now how to actually dig into the contents a bit for clues as to what it is. > I've seen posts in the past from people who were able to find strings, > etc that sort of help as clues. Does anyone know how I'd go further here? > Really curious what was on this one. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Brad > --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com From dab at froghouse.org Tue Jan 2 13:15:45 2018 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 14:15:45 -0500 Subject: Asynchronous design - was Re: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: <20180101203321.2AE5118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <421181da-c51b-62a1-6090-b53f71b25aa0@froghouse.org> <65bc1671-e557-3fa3-3fa8-f1a12bbc727f@froghouse.org> <6a65e826-a8af-61e9-3c45-07799ed02ae8@telegraphics.com.au> <9a52cba5-93b5-6985-b3f9-5d66138398de@froghouse.org> Message-ID: On 01/02/2018 02:07 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2018-01-02 1:57 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: >> The link didn't work for me but I definitely have that paper -- good >> stuff indeed.? I should collect my library in one place so I don't lose >> track of what I have. >> > Sorry, this is a better link: > > https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1283946 That one works, thanks.? It's some pretty interesting work. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 13:59:41 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 12:59:41 -0700 Subject: Dumping my first EPROM In-Reply-To: <011e01d383fd$b963b400$2c2b1c00$@bettercomputing.net> References: <011901d383fb$569f3260$03dd9720$@bettercomputing.net> <011e01d383fd$b963b400$2c2b1c00$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 12:13 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > Thanks Paul. I found an srec2bin converter and ran that.. it created a 1K > bin file. I then opened that with a hex editor (slick edit).. but alas, no > readable strings. > Not too surprising, since AFAIK the basic Dynamicro doesn't have any ASCII I/O. Next step would be to run the binary file through an 8080 (or Z80) disassembler. I use z80dasm, which is provided as C source code: https://www.tablix.org/~avian/blog/articles/z80dasm/ but there are many others to choose from. Without the disassembler, just looking at the object code in hex, you might see whether there's a pattern in the first 64 bytes of each 8 byte group containing a few bytes of code then zeros. That's common (but not universal) in 8080/Z80 code because the reset vector is at address 00, and the RST instruction vectors are at 00, 08, 10, 18, 20, 28, 30, and 38 hexadecimal. From dab at froghouse.org Tue Jan 2 14:00:16 2018 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 15:00:16 -0500 Subject: QSIC update and request In-Reply-To: References: <20180102181344.A763718C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7b33f8a2-afd7-0b2f-36d1-b19851415864@froghouse.org> Message-ID: On 01/02/2018 02:05 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> Oh, I hadn't thought of Toby possibly meaning that.? Yeah, I'm unlikely >> to write up much documentation on the internals of the QSIC for people >> who want to add other devices.? However, not only will the source be > Yes, that's what I meant. In fact I thought that was the point of the > device :) Well, I guess I thought the point was to produce a working replacement for the disk drives that are nearly unobtainable but if it turns out that lots of people are seriously interested in developing for the QSIC itself, then I'll have to revisit that supposition.? In that case, I'd probably write up more internals documentation than I would otherwise. > Hope so. And there's always the blog? Blog?? Is there a blog about the QSIC that I don't know about?? I'm not much of a blogger but if you get me started talking about things that interest me I tend to rattle on to excess. From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Jan 2 14:08:39 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 21:08:39 +0100 Subject: SM EVM A131-10 advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180102200839.GB17290@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 03:49:11PM -0500, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Greg Smith via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Hi, I'm brand new to vintage computing and would love any advice. I'm > > thinking of putting together a SM EVM A131-10 and would appreciate any > > advice/knowledge on the unit.? > > > > > Learn to read Russian? That's a Soviet-era computer correct? There are a > few here that might be able to help. > BIll Hi, I can see that nobody gave longer answer, so I guess I may try. tl,dr - I am not going to be helpfull beyond writing this email, because I am way too newbie to consider engaging myself into this, and I am a bit too loaded to learn new things in comfortable setting while a sh*tload cries for my attention... So now when we all know what my opinion is worth, here you are. SM EVM (?? ???) was name given to few lines of clones (or if you prefer, hardware emulators) of some Western computers made by Soviet Union (and later few more countries of Soviet block - like, Poland, Hungary, Cuba, Bulgaria, East Germany/German Democratic Republic, Czechoslovakia - I am not sure about Romania, but otherwise everybody has been involved, apparently). There were three lines (or four), which emulated the following families [1][2]: - HP 2000 - PDP11 (beyond SM EVM, there were few other projects for cloning those) - VAX (11/730 etc) - Intel 8080 up to 80386 Yours belongs to the first line, and seems to be a part of bigger system [3]. A complete system could look more like [4] (please note, a programming-capable astronomer is not included in a package) or [5]. On [1] they claim "???? ????????? ????????? ?? ????????? ?????????? ????" which (AFAICT) means they were based on soviet-made electronics, thus I would not count on them being able to get plugged with western-made modules (like, disks, floppies, memory banks) and work without problem. Likewise, while it is possible to do various great projects with soviet hardware, say in this (smaller) case [6], where a programmable calculator Elektronika MK-85 (??????????? ??-85) is being retrofitted with bigger RAM and ROM, which are more or less western and contemporary, but a CPU itself is soviet made and PDP-11 compatible. There is no close, drop-in replacement, however - as claimed by [7] [8], one of the closest is said to be DEC T11 cpu - so once this cpu goes, I guess the calculator is gone, too. The hardware was being accompanied with software. I guess it was possible to run western "binaries" (unclear - I had no time to dive deeper, there are mentions of running things like FOCAL, without details - and if so, how the software was being transferred onto soviet computer, did they plugged a floppy/tapereader in? or what). There were also clones of operating systems, like quite a few made of RT11, with mods allowing to use cyrillic alongside latin script [9]. So I think knowing Russian is a must for your type of project, like William mentioned (I know it well enough to read without GTrnaslator, but I have to make up unknown words from the context, which slows me down quite much, but learning hurts, so I should rejoice). And knowing electronics to the point of being adventurous is probably a must too. In case the computer was manufactured in another country, I am afraid manuals would be in a language of that country (i.e., Polish, Spanish, Hungarian and so on), so that means another language. As of parts, I think most manufacturing facilities went tits up. If there are some still in business, and they keep servicing old HW (big if, but it seems at least in Russia, some of those consoles are still blinking), then I do not think they have intention to sell on civilian market. This means (murky) adventure(s) and I have no info. Without having abovementioned properties, I think the PITA is going to kill you. I might also be wrong, see above, and more above. Those computers, while not a secret, were almost totally unknown to me, until I started hitting wikipedia, decades later. So finding anything related is going to be hard. Just MHO. I recall reading about soviet computer once, short article with small photo - in those days of Amiga craze, such constructs were no sexy at all. And much more expensive than anything I might be buying here in Poland - I think they were made to sell for industry, mining, production lines, sometimes military, thus a teenager had no business to know about such things. Adults only market. Which is why I happen to know Atari 800xl a bit better than Polish Odra 1300. Sources: [1] https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/??_??? [2] (sptth)://www.(yabe).com/itm/USSR-Soviet-SM-EVM-A131-10-CPU-OPERATING-CONTROL-CONSOLE-PANEL-1970s-/232386327097 To get proper url, reverse words in parentheses. [3] http://oldpc.su/pc/sm/sm.html [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ESO_Hewlett_Packard_2116_minicomputer.jpg [5] https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Komputery_PRS4_.jpg [6] http://www.mk85.republika.pl/sprzet.htm [7] https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/???????????_??-85 [8] https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/1801BMx [9] https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT-11#?????_?_???? Happy New Year, everybody. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jan 2 14:38:08 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 15:38:08 -0500 Subject: QSIC update and request In-Reply-To: References: <20180102181344.A763718C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7b33f8a2-afd7-0b2f-36d1-b19851415864@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <6510cab5-4668-09d7-0587-a28919ac5833@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-01-02 3:00 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > On 01/02/2018 02:05 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > >>> Oh, I hadn't thought of Toby possibly meaning that.? Yeah, I'm unlikely >>> to write up much documentation on the internals of the QSIC for people >>> who want to add other devices.? However, not only will the source be >> Yes, that's what I meant. In fact I thought that was the point of the >> device :) > > Well, I guess I thought the point was to produce a working replacement > for the disk drives that are nearly unobtainable but if it turns out > that lots of people are seriously interested in developing for the QSIC > itself, then I'll have to revisit that supposition.? In that case, I'd > probably write up more internals documentation than I would otherwise. > >> Hope so. And there's always the blog? > > Blog?? Is there a blog about the QSIC that I don't know about?? I'm not > much of a blogger but if you get me started talking about things that > interest me I tend to rattle on to excess. > > Err.. could be my mistake... I meant wherever you posted your last technical note about QBus quirks. (I didn't look up the reference) --Toby From macro at linux-mips.org Tue Jan 2 15:02:10 2018 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 21:02:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Vaxstation 4000 m60 and NetBSD In-Reply-To: References: <3c6cacd2-33f3-2431-d0c9-b71139234de1@familie-rauhut.eu> <878te1o9ty.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <0e024b5c-acd2-39ea-3de1-e5eaf1246f2f@familie-rauhut.eu> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Dec 2017, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > > Hardware support say no support for LCG Graphics :-( > > There are a few people willing to work on graphics for old > vaxstations, but there is no documentation. > > If anyone has documentation, the netbsd vax port mailing list would be > very interested. The RAMDAC is standard, so as long as frame buffer memory is mapped into the CDAL address space writing a dumb device driver should be pretty straightforward with little reverse engineering effort. And CDAL address decoding is I believe documented in the KA46 board specification. And all else failing you can always resort to TURBOchannel graphics wired via a TURBOchannel adapter. While not supported by the console monitor, it can be handled by the OS just fine, and several TURBOchannel graphics drivers are already available for other ports, so it's just a matter of a suitable kernel configuration (with minor patching possibly, depending on how cleanly written the respective drivers are). I was able to get OS console output using at least the HX and one of the HX+ options with my m90 and the (still very crippled and long neglected) VAX/Linux port several years ago. The MX, CX and TX options should be easily supportable too. Only accelerators (PixelStamp and PixelVision architecture implementations) might cause trouble for one reason or another (such as using DMA or requiring a TURBOchannel extender, which are scarcer than hen's teeth). FWIW, Maciej From mail.nickallen at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 15:12:50 2018 From: mail.nickallen at gmail.com (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 15:12:50 -0600 Subject: Help diagnosing boot issue SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: <48fffbdb-f021-2d19-cb05-16f8e5dd7d3b@gmail.com> <658b6d8c-d0c4-57f0-4aa6-4ca7454906aa@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3d45bf85-1b95-6623-90e5-9ce79815c9c5@gmail.com> Well... Finally figured it out!? Found a lose solder blob shorting 2 pins on one of the motherboard ICs.? That explains why I've been going crazy trying to figure out why it's been so random and intermittent.? Thanks everyone for chiming in, and helping out! On 1/1/2018 6:12 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > I spoke too soon, I think simply cleaning the contacts rattled a short > and dumb luck made it boot the first time.? By pressing the > fatherboard I can see characters corrupt when running a program, guess > I need to do some more digging to find out exactly where and why this > is happening. > > > On 1/1/2018 5:34 PM, Nick Allen wrote: >> cleaning the connector pins with a brass brush solved the issue, >> thanks everyone!! >> >> >> On 1/1/2018 5:03 PM, Nick Allen wrote: >>> Thanks for the tips everyone!? I can confirm power is GOOD, and the >>> problem persists even without the RAM installed (Just CPU and MP-C >>> or MP-S board).? I am going to clean the buss connectors and see if >>> it helps! >>> >>> On 1/1/2018 12:32 PM, Nick Allen wrote: >>>> Hey everyone, Happy New Years!? I am thankful for an active >>>> community that enjoys helping each other learn, and today I am >>>> coming with an ask for help. >>>> >>>> I have a SWTPC 6800 and ADM3A terminal, I can get it to boot, and >>>> when it boots it will continue to boot for several hours. But >>>> getting it to successfully boot takes upwards of 100 power OFF and >>>> ON cycles.? The other 99 times, I get a continuous stream of random >>>> ASCII characters (see video link below). It's my first time seeing >>>> this type of issue that happens intermittently, and wondering if >>>> anyone has any insights in what might be causing this.? I suspect >>>> its a faulty IC on the Processor board that resets or controls the >>>> OS reset, will need to deep dive and diagnose, but thought I would >>>> ask for some direction first. >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci4vhPn-3PE >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance! >>>> >>>> -Nick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > From dab at froghouse.org Tue Jan 2 17:38:41 2018 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 18:38:41 -0500 Subject: QSIC update and request In-Reply-To: <6510cab5-4668-09d7-0587-a28919ac5833@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20180102181344.A763718C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7b33f8a2-afd7-0b2f-36d1-b19851415864@froghouse.org> <6510cab5-4668-09d7-0587-a28919ac5833@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <52564ce0-8d51-ef41-85bd-a90e079b87bc@froghouse.org> On 1/2/18 15:38, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > Err.. could be my mistake... I meant wherever you posted your last > technical note about QBus quirks. (I didn't look up the reference) Oh, that paper I wrote about how bus arbitration works on the Unibus and QBUS.? I'd thought of it as just a way of passing on information I'd learned to the community about something I thought was interesting but you're right, it also serves to document some of the internals of the QSIC since that's where I took it from. From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 18:09:44 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 19:09:44 -0500 Subject: ID some core memory In-Reply-To: <237CF08C-DA5D-4917-AED0-C4DC7A35D587@gmail.com> References: <237CF08C-DA5D-4917-AED0-C4DC7A35D587@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > > > > >> Bill said > >>> Just curious...can anyone id the system that used these two types of > core > >>> memory? I am thinking the first is a hand-made custom core, but the > 2nd > >> is > >>> definitely from a commercial system. Looks kind of IBM-ish but it's > >>> nothing I can ID. It's not an IBM 1401 I don't think. > >>> http://vintagecomputer.net/core-memory/ > >>> Thanks > >>> Bill > >> > >> It's not a 1401 core plane. Here are a couple of pictures of what (I am > >> pretty sure) is a 1401 core plane that I have from my dad: > >> http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/IBM_1401_core_memory_ > plane_1.jpg > >> Close-up. Has a sharp molded corner and the grooves for the wires: > >> http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/IBM_1401_core_memory_ > plane_2.jpg > >> > >> Refer to PDF page 12 of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ > >> ibm/1401/A24-1403-5_1401_Reference_Apr62.pdf > >> for another photo of this. > >> > >> Steve. > >> > >> > I think given the IBM-esque printed markings all types of IBM core should be ruled out first. For example the IBM 1620. But now you can see why I am asking, what I have does not quite fit. On the wirewrap side there are four numbered grids on 4 physical plates, wired together. The ...'s represent "the continuation of wirewrap rows" 1,2,3,4,5,...33 etc. 1 [wirewrap] --- 133 [wirewrap] 67 1 .... .... .... .. 33 165 99 32 33 34 34 [wirewrap] --- 166 [wirewrap] 100 35 .. ... ... ... ... 66 66 198 132 From steven at malikoff.com Tue Jan 2 20:24:17 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 12:24:17 +1000 Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. Message-ID: <3be85038d5eaab34d7a8caf303dad196.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> I'm in need of some feet for my H960s and am intending to make a few pairs, so I thought I might as well try and make them look close to the originals. I have a few ideas on construction, for instance 3mm steel plate laser-cut and folded jigsaw fashion then welded, or even simpler a basic welded steel bar with a 3D printed leg cap for asthetics. I've been unsucessful in finding any closeup photos or drawings of these things so have used a diagram from one of the 11/70 manuals which is the best I have so far. Thankfully they drew it in isometric so it was easly to overdraw in CAD and project it to this: http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/DEC_H960_stabiliser_foot_left_A-H952-BA.jpg I have some questions- Does the (optional?) sheetmetal kickplate play any role in securing these legs to the frame? Are the two front screws are only there to hold them on and there is some internal box section that goes into the front of the channel on the rack to take the weight? Is the outer side tapered? It looks straight. If the foot a one piece casting (presumably) or fabricated in some way? Is the foot pad thread in the centre of the front of the leg, and is it the same thread and pad as the H960? Finally I would really appreciate if someone could run a digital caliper over one, and fill in my required measurements A through Q in the above drawing. And if you have a radius guage that would really be great. As usual, thanks for any help or advice. Steve. From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 18:33:54 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 16:33:54 -0800 Subject: New DEC and other items for sale from Sellam's collection Message-ID: Hello Folks, a most glorious and blessed new year to you all. I have created a new DEC sales thread on the VCFed forums and populated it with a batch of newly listed DEC cards: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61371-Sellam-s-DEC-Hardware-Software-and-Peripherals-Sales-Thread I've also reduced the price of this nice PDP 11/03 basic system to $140: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57667-LLNL-LSI-11-Homebrew-system&highlight=llnl I've also listed a few more items, an APL and standard bare keyboard, and a homebrew front panel board: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?58709-New-Items-For-Sale-Check-the-List-and-Make-an-Offer-or-Request&p=492319#post492319 As a reminder, I also started a S-100 thread for S-100 related sales: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61192-Sellam-s-S-100-Hardware-Software-and-Peripherals-Sales-Thread Inquiries directly to me via e-mail get the fastest response. Thanks! Sellam From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 00:28:04 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 00:28:04 -0600 Subject: ID some core memory In-Reply-To: References: <237CF08C-DA5D-4917-AED0-C4DC7A35D587@gmail.com> Message-ID: would sperry univac fit those markings? On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 6:09 PM, william degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Bill said > > >>> Just curious...can anyone id the system that used these two types of > > core > > >>> memory? I am thinking the first is a hand-made custom core, but the > > 2nd > > >> is > > >>> definitely from a commercial system. Looks kind of IBM-ish but it's > > >>> nothing I can ID. It's not an IBM 1401 I don't think. > > >>> http://vintagecomputer.net/core-memory/ > > >>> Thanks > > >>> Bill > > >> > > >> It's not a 1401 core plane. Here are a couple of pictures of what (I > am > > >> pretty sure) is a 1401 core plane that I have from my dad: > > >> http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/IBM_1401_core_memory_ > > plane_1.jpg > > >> Close-up. Has a sharp molded corner and the grooves for the wires: > > >> http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/IBM_1401_core_memory_ > > plane_2.jpg > > >> > > >> Refer to PDF page 12 of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ > > >> ibm/1401/A24-1403-5_1401_Reference_Apr62.pdf > > >> for another photo of this. > > >> > > >> Steve. > > >> > > >> > > > > > I think given the IBM-esque printed markings all types of IBM core should > be ruled out first. For example the IBM 1620. But now you can see why I > am asking, what I have does not quite fit. > > On the wirewrap side there are four numbered grids on 4 physical plates, > wired together. The ...'s represent "the continuation of wirewrap rows" > 1,2,3,4,5,...33 etc. > > 1 [wirewrap] --- 133 [wirewrap] 67 1 > .... .... .... .. > 33 165 99 32 > 33 > > > 34 > 34 [wirewrap] --- 166 [wirewrap] 100 35 > .. ... ... ... > ... 66 > 66 198 132 > From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Wed Jan 3 09:28:52 2018 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 07:28:52 -0800 Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. In-Reply-To: <3be85038d5eaab34d7a8caf303dad196.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <3be85038d5eaab34d7a8caf303dad196.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <5B06F85BF47B4B7EB0F570D82578F6C7@Vincew7> From: Steve Malikoff via cctalk: Tuesday, January 02, 2018 6:24 PM > I'm in need of some feet for my H960s and am intending to make a few pairs, so > I thought I might > as well try and make them look close to the originals. > I have some questions- > Does the (optional?) sheetmetal kickplate play any role in securing these legs > to the frame? I assume by kickplate you mean that piece of square channel that is bolted to the bottom front of the rack. My feet seem to be bolted to it and through it. > Are the two front screws are only there to hold them on and there is some > internal box section that goes > into the front of the channel on the rack to take the weight? There's a large fastener (machine screw with a large flat head) running through the channel with a nut at the bottom, as well as two screws to keep it from pivoting to the side. Some of my kickplates have both front screws and holes, and some only the upper hole. > Is the outer side tapered? It looks straight. Straight. > If the foot a one piece casting (presumably) or fabricated in some way? It looks like a one piece casting. > Is the foot pad thread in the centre of the front of the leg, and is it the > same thread and pad as the H960? Yes. The foot pad is smaller, but without removing the one on the rack it is hard to compare the threaded rods. > Finally I would really appreciate if someone could run a digital caliper over > one, and fill in my required > measurements A through Q in the above drawing. And if you have a radius guage > that would really be great. A is about 9 1/8 inches. B is 2 3/8 inches. C is about 2.1 inches. D is 1.45 inches. E is 1.3 inches. F is 1.25 inches. G is approximately 0.2 inches. H is 0.9 inches. The threaded rod for I has a diameter of 0.305 inches. If J is meant to be the foot pad, the radius is 0.6 inches. K is 1.0 inches. Radius L is approximately 1/4 inch. If M is meant to be the corner bevel, those are a tight corner that I can't measure accurately. N is likewise a tight corner that I don't have a tool to measure. I didn't find an "O". P is also too tightly rounded for me to measure. Q has a 1/8 inch radius. Hope that helps! Vince From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 10:03:24 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 11:03:24 -0500 Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. In-Reply-To: <5B06F85BF47B4B7EB0F570D82578F6C7@Vincew7> References: <3be85038d5eaab34d7a8caf303dad196.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <5B06F85BF47B4B7EB0F570D82578F6C7@Vincew7> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 10:28 AM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > From: Steve Malikoff via cctalk: Tuesday, January 02, 2018 6:24 PM >> >> I'm in need of some feet for my H960s and am intending to make a few >> pairs, so I thought I might as well try and make them look close to the originals. > >> Is the foot pad thread in the centre of the front of the leg, and is it >> the same thread and pad as the H960? > > Yes. The foot pad is smaller, but without removing the one on the > rack it is hard to compare the threaded rods. The rod is also smaller by quite a bit, but I don't have one in front of me to measure. -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 3 11:11:47 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 12:11:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. Message-ID: <20180103171147.944DA18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks > The rod is also smaller by quite a bit, but I don't have one in front > of me to measure. The two feet are quite different. The smaller one on the extender is 5/16"-18 (i.e. UNC Coarse thread); the larger one under the cabinet is 1/2"-13. Replacements can easily be had from Vlier: Vlier part numbers are FSE302S (for the extender feet), and FSE306S (for the main feet). We really ought to do a group bulk build of the extension castings; if we get a reasonable size order together, they shouldn't be that expensive. Ditto for the special bolt needed to hold them to the H960. Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jan 3 12:35:08 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 18:35:08 -0000 Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: <00b101d383f6$150997a0$3f1cc6e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com> <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> <2092619893.9829307.1514912331523.JavaMail.zimbra@ismennt.is> <00b101d383f6$150997a0$3f1cc6e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <012a01d384c1$95299040$bf7cb0c0$@ntlworld.com> I am beginning to wonder if the problem might be the ULA. The reason I say this is that when I set up the logic analyser to *stop* on a zero ROM address, it didn't. Which means it isn't resetting in the way I thought it was. When I traced the instruction addresses during boot up I could see lots of resets back to address zero, and assumed that somehow it was getting further into the sequence to show the copyright screen, but then resetting again, because the screen would display the "snow" after showing the copyright screen. So if it isn't resetting then something may be just interrupting the video display, and the machine just thinks it is showing the copyright screen and waiting for input. This is further evidenced by the fact that the ROM addresses when it is in this cycle all seem to be in the keyboard input area, based on a PDF that documents a disassembly of the ROM that I found on the web. If that was the case I thought it might respond to keypresses, but I checked and it doesn't, and the same happens with a second keyboard from another machine. However, the ULA is responsible for the video signal and for the keyboard input, so it suggests the ULA, or something around it, could be the problem. I have a second Spectrum (with a different fault that I think is the memory) that is a later design. It has the 6C001E-6 ULA, the older machine (which appears to reset) has a 5C112E ULA. Looking at this page http://www.bytedelight.com/?p=41 the 6C001E-7 (not -6) ULA can be used on older machines. Does anyone know if, just as a test, it would be safe to put the newer 6C001E-6 ULA in the older machine? Fortunately both ULAs are socketed, so this would be an easy test. Thanks Rob From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 14:14:06 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 14:14:06 -0600 Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. In-Reply-To: <20180103171147.944DA18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180103171147.944DA18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I would be interested in a few dozen of the cabinet feet and maybe 18 for the stabilizer feet. I seem to recall looking at a few of the stabilizer feet a few months ago and noticing there were a few different versions. I will try to find my cabinet handbook and see what it says, and supply DEC part numbers if anyone is interested. Paul On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 11:11 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Ethan Dicks > > > The rod is also smaller by quite a bit, but I don't have one in front > > of me to measure. > > The two feet are quite different. The smaller one on the extender is > 5/16"-18 > (i.e. UNC Coarse thread); the larger one under the cabinet is 1/2"-13. > > Replacements can easily be had from Vlier: Vlier part numbers are FSE302S > (for the extender feet), and FSE306S (for the main feet). > > > We really ought to do a group bulk build of the extension castings; if we > get > a reasonable size order together, they shouldn't be that expensive. Ditto > for the special bolt needed to hold them to the H960. > > Noel > From fritzm at fritzm.org Wed Jan 3 16:55:16 2018 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 14:55:16 -0800 Subject: 40 pin Berg cable connector recommendations for PDP-11 projects? Message-ID: Hello PDP-11 crowd: I?m thinking of starting a project that will interface to a DR11-C, which has the usual 40-pin Berg ribbon cable connectors. I thought I?d ping the collected wisdom here to see if other folks had already sourced an available modern cable connector for this that they particularly like? cheers, ?FritzM. From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 12:31:06 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 10:31:06 -0800 Subject: Sellam's Manual, Book, Magazine and General Documentation Sales Thread Message-ID: Greetings from the piles! I've created a new thread on the VCFed forums for listing manuals, books, magazines and general computer related documentation. The thread is here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61380-Sellam-s-Manual-Book-Magazine-and-General-Documentation-Sales-Thread Thanks! Sellam From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 17:03:05 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 18:03:05 -0500 Subject: 40 pin Berg cable connector recommendations for PDP-11 projects? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Most IDC connectors will fit just fine. I've use old 40-pin IDE cables before. Beware that the keying boss may be too short for the old blue Berg housings, allowing the cable to be inserted upside-down (don't depend on the keying boss!). There are wire housing type connectors you can get, as well, which allow individual pins to be crimped to wires and then inserted into the housing. Mouser's parametric search will yield many options. Thanks, Jonathan On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 5:55 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello PDP-11 crowd: > > I?m thinking of starting a project that will interface to a DR11-C, which > has the usual 40-pin Berg ribbon cable connectors. I thought I?d ping the > collected wisdom here to see if other folks had already sourced an > available modern cable connector for this that they particularly like? > > cheers, > ?FritzM. > > > > From steven at malikoff.com Wed Jan 3 17:26:09 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 09:26:09 +1000 Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. Message-ID: Excellent, that's a great start. Vince - thanks for the measurements, I will redraw a better 3-view using those. Not sure about how the extra bolt goes though. Ethan - thanks for confirming the different leg pad to frame pad. Noel - that is extremely useful info on the pads, I've now found them at http://www.vlier.com/product_index/leveling/sel_05_lstar.html# Paul - yes I noticed some systems had different legs, for instance this one https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2435/3878202215_372c46fccb_b.jpg and any p/n info you have from better sources would be welcome. The part number I found for the legs (H-952-BA) came from the Fall 1978 Digital Sales Catalog, page 129 which has the same p/n for both Standard and Short cabinets. I'll cogitate over a revised drawing and get back to the list. Thanks again, Steve. From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jan 3 17:57:41 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 16:57:41 -0700 Subject: QSIC update and request, 11/04 microcode In-Reply-To: <014453c1-5157-bfe7-d6c9-251eb04d3df3@froghouse.org> References: <014453c1-5157-bfe7-d6c9-251eb04d3df3@froghouse.org> Message-ID: On 2018-01-01 13:42, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > I'd rather not get diverted by yet another substantial development > project so I'm looking for a decent little FPGA implementation of a > PDP-11 that I could just pick up use for this purpose.? Something that's > already debugged.? I'm thinking closer to an 11/04 than an 11/70 and > likely just running out of block RAM on the FPGA. is the 11/04 microcode somewhere as a binary? So far I found only the print in the MPS ... From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 3 18:11:14 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 16:11:14 -0800 Subject: 40 pin Berg cable connector recommendations for PDP-11 projects? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <487b7671-e82e-323d-8f75-64c2ea19062b@sydex.com> On 01/03/2018 03:03 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > Most IDC connectors will fit just fine. I've use old 40-pin IDE cables > before. Beware that the keying boss may be too short for the old blue Berg > housings, allowing the cable to be inserted upside-down (don't depend on > the keying boss!). > > There are wire housing type connectors you can get, as well, which allow > individual pins to be crimped to wires and then inserted into the housing. > Mouser's parametric search will yield many options. Also, be aware that twisted-pair ribbon cable may be specified on some of this older stuff. Depending on the length of the run, "straight" ribbon cable may work, but it's something to pay attention to if you're in the 10-20 m lengths. I use the crimp pins and housings all the time. Recently, I had a dual-row 8 pin module to plug into another board. I used the female Berg housing and pins crimped onto lengths of AWG 18 solid wire, which in turn was soldered to the PCB. It saved me from having to order a special female header. If you do go the crimp-pin route, get yourself a good crimper made for the job.--I use one made by/for Molex--it's a spring-loaded ratchet affair that repeatedly crimps the pins very neatly. The other thing is to get a good wire stripper that won't nick the conductors. I use the "Micro Strip" tool that's often used for stripping fiber jackets--I originally got mine for stripping wire-wrap wire. You can sometimes find these tools on the used market. New, they can be quite dear. --Chuck From macro at linux-mips.org Wed Jan 3 18:30:32 2018 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 00:30:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: <012a01d384c1$95299040$bf7cb0c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com> <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> <2092619893.9829307.1514912331523.JavaMail.zimbra@ismennt.is> <00b101d383f6$150997a0$3f1cc6e0$@ntlworld.com> <012a01d384c1$95299040$bf7cb0c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2018, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > The reason I say this is that when I set up the logic analyser to *stop* > on a zero ROM address, it didn't. Which means it isn't resetting in the > way I thought it was. When I traced the instruction addresses during > boot up I could see lots of resets back to address zero, and assumed > that somehow it was getting further into the sequence to show the > copyright screen, but then resetting again, because the screen would > display the "snow" after showing the copyright screen. As I recall with the ZX Spectrum there wasn't any "snow" on TV with a subsequent reset (as when pressing the reset button on the Plus variation). Moreover DRAM refresh continued to work (presumably being driven by the R register of the Z80 CPU according to its machine cycles, although at this point I'd have to double check the details as my brain actually seems to be missing the R register altogether), so unlike with a power-up reset, where you'd initially get random rubbish on the screen, with a subsequent reset you'd see a black rectangle (with thin vertical stripes IIRC, meaning a pattern with a single bit set) instead as the part of memory used for video data gets cleared in the DRAM initialisation process, followed by the copyright notice you mention. That you see "snow" instead is I believe indeed a strong indication that something else goes wrong beyond (or instead of) just an intermittent reset. And given that the ULA produces video output right away after power-up with no need to program any device registers is I think an indication that either the chip is broken or something else causes it to malfunction, just as you have concluded. FWIW, Maciej From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 18:33:31 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 19:33:31 -0500 Subject: 40 pin Berg cable connector recommendations for PDP-11 projects? In-Reply-To: <487b7671-e82e-323d-8f75-64c2ea19062b@sydex.com> References: <487b7671-e82e-323d-8f75-64c2ea19062b@sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck is right on about having the right tools. I use a Paladin (now Greenlee) PA1645 for most of my wire housing crimp terminal needs. I've got an older Weidmuller Mini Stripax wire stripper that works excellent, bought it after having used one in a job in college. I don't use the "official" tool for IDC connector crimping, though -- I use a small arbor press. Picked it up at the MIT Flea for under $20. Thanks, Jonathan On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 7:11 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 01/03/2018 03:03 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > Most IDC connectors will fit just fine. I've use old 40-pin IDE cables > > before. Beware that the keying boss may be too short for the old blue > Berg > > housings, allowing the cable to be inserted upside-down (don't depend on > > the keying boss!). > > > > There are wire housing type connectors you can get, as well, which allow > > individual pins to be crimped to wires and then inserted into the > housing. > > Mouser's parametric search will yield many options. > > Also, be aware that twisted-pair ribbon cable may be specified on some > of this older stuff. Depending on the length of the run, "straight" > ribbon cable may work, but it's something to pay attention to if you're > in the 10-20 m lengths. > > I use the crimp pins and housings all the time. Recently, I had a > dual-row 8 pin module to plug into another board. I used the female > Berg housing and pins crimped onto lengths of AWG 18 solid wire, which > in turn was soldered to the PCB. It saved me from having to order a > special female header. > > If you do go the crimp-pin route, get yourself a good crimper made for > the job.--I use one made by/for Molex--it's a spring-loaded ratchet > affair that repeatedly crimps the pins very neatly. > > The other thing is to get a good wire stripper that won't nick the > conductors. I use the "Micro Strip" tool that's often used for > stripping fiber jackets--I originally got mine for stripping wire-wrap > wire. > > You can sometimes find these tools on the used market. New, they can be > quite dear. > > --Chuck > > From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Wed Jan 3 18:34:29 2018 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 16:34:29 -0800 Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Steve Malikoff via cctalk: Wednesday, January 03, 2018 3:26 PM > Vince - thanks for the measurements, I will redraw a better 3-view using > those. Not sure about how the extra bolt goes though. You're welcome, and thanks for your work on the drawing. One thing I forgot to mention -- on mine, the path from edge "D" to edge "G" is a diagonal, not a right angle. That is, "K" starts at zero, and grows to 1.0 inches at the tip where "G" is measured. The thickness there looks similar to the thickness at "G". (The metal stiffens the flanges in both directions, preventing bending or breakage.) The extra bolt has a slotted flat screw head with a maximum diameter of about 0.6" at the top edge, centered in the "D" direction, and about 0.6" forward in the "K" direction. I'd have to get out some tools and take one apart to measure it's length and thread, but it looks like a standard DECish thread to my eye (#10-something?), and protrudes just a few threads past the nut on the bottom. Vince From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 18:41:47 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 19:41:47 -0500 Subject: 40 pin Berg cable connector recommendations for PDP-11 projects? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: good timing to ask. i ordered a similar connector that should do the job off digikey. i am still waiting for it to get here in the mail. It was $20 or so after ordering the pins and the shipping. the particular connector i ordered has a key on it that will need to be filed off to fit. once it gets here and i am certain it will fit properly i can get you the part #. should be a day or two more before it gets here. On Jan 3, 2018 5:55 PM, "Fritz Mueller via cctalk" wrote: > Hello PDP-11 crowd: > > I?m thinking of starting a project that will interface to a DR11-C, which > has the usual 40-pin Berg ribbon cable connectors. I thought I?d ping the > collected wisdom here to see if other folks had already sourced an > available modern cable connector for this that they particularly like? > > cheers, > ?FritzM. > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 4 01:21:55 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 07:21:55 -0000 Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com> <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> <2092619893.9829307.1514912331523.JavaMail.zimbra@ismennt.is> <00b101d383f6$150997a0$3f1cc6e0$@ntlworld.com> <012a01d384c1$95299040$bf7cb0c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <015901d3852c$b41f6d10$1c5e4730$@ntlworld.com> > As I recall with the ZX Spectrum there wasn't any "snow" on TV with a > subsequent reset (as when pressing the reset button on the Plus variation). > > Moreover DRAM refresh continued to work (presumably being driven by the R > register of the Z80 CPU according to its machine cycles, although at this point > I'd have to double check the details as my brain actually seems to be missing > the R register altogether), so unlike with a power-up reset, where you'd initially > get random rubbish on the screen, with a subsequent reset you'd see a black > rectangle (with thin vertical stripes IIRC, meaning a pattern with a single bit > set) instead as the part of memory used for video data gets cleared in the > DRAM initialisation process, followed by the copyright notice you mention. > > That you see "snow" instead is I believe indeed a strong indication that > something else goes wrong beyond (or instead of) just an intermittent reset. > And given that the ULA produces video output right away after power-up with > no need to program any device registers is I think an indication that either the > chip is broken or something else causes it to malfunction, just as you have > concluded. > Thanks Maciej. Since I never had Spectrum when they were new, I didn't know that this was how it behaved on a reset. I am glad that my analysis seems to be on the right track (given what I know at the moment). I am going to concentrate on the ULA and the video output, but given that the keyboard also doesn't seem to work the ULA has to be the prime suspect at the moment. I am still hoping someone will know if I can try swapping the ULA with a newer one from a later model I have. I may also look at getting a NebULA as they are not expensive. Regards Rob From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 05:04:25 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 12:04:25 +0100 Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: <015901d3852c$b41f6d10$1c5e4730$@ntlworld.com> References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com> <001f01d382f6$2088ac70$619a0550$@ntlworld.com> <2092619893.9829307.1514912331523.JavaMail.zimbra@ismennt.is> <00b101d383f6$150997a0$3f1cc6e0$@ntlworld.com> <012a01d384c1$95299040$bf7cb0c0$@ntlworld.com> <015901d3852c$b41f6d10$1c5e4730$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 4 January 2018 at 08:21, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I am still hoping someone will know if I can try swapping the ULA with a > newer one from a later model I have. I may also look at getting a NebULA as > they are not expensive. Possibly helpful... https://spectrumforeveryone.com/technical/zx-spectrum-ula-types/ As well as NebULA, there's also SLAM: https://www.sellmyretro.com/offer/details/slam,-zx-128-ula-replacement-board-21779 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 12:00:24 2018 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:00:24 -0500 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown Message-ID: This may be off-topic but these latest uprocessor exploits has raised a question: Are the 'old/classic' uprocessors using x86 technology in the same boat? The very earliest ones, i.e., 1970s and early 80's. probably not. How many are actually in use and/or on the Net? Happy computing! Murray :) From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Jan 4 12:05:19 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 11:05:19 -0700 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > This may be off-topic but these latest uprocessor exploits has raised > a question: Are the 'old/classic' uprocessors using x86 technology in > the same boat? The very earliest ones, i.e., 1970s and early 80's. > probably not. How many are actually in use and/or on the Net? > I've seen it reported, but haven't verified, that this bug extends about 20 years back in the past to the Pentium Pro/Pentium II class of machines. If I read that correctly, there's only two generations of Pentium not affected, the P54C and P55C, the former of F00F fame... 386 and 486 CPUs apparently aren't affected since they didn't have speculative execution. The 8088/8086/80186/80286 presumably are also immune... If you extend things further back, CP/M on Z80/8080 is also fine, but I don't think those are properly x86 :) Warner From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 14:19:02 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:19:02 -0500 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Warner Losh via cctalk" To: "Murray McCullough" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 1:05 PM Subject: Re: Spectre & Meltdown > On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> This may be off-topic but these latest uprocessor exploits has raised >> a question: Are the 'old/classic' uprocessors using x86 technology in >> the same boat? The very earliest ones, i.e., 1970s and early 80's. >> probably not. How many are actually in use and/or on the Net? >> > > I've seen it reported, but haven't verified, that this bug extends about 20 > years back in the past to the Pentium Pro/Pentium II class of machines. If > I read that correctly, there's only two generations of Pentium not > affected, the P54C and P55C, the former of F00F fame... 386 and 486 CPUs > apparently aren't affected since they didn't have speculative execution. > The 8088/8086/80186/80286 presumably are also immune... If you extend > things further back, CP/M on Z80/8080 is also fine, but I don't think those > are properly x86 :) > > Warner -------- Finally, an excuse to use all those old 486 boxes... m From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Jan 4 14:34:37 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:34:37 -0500 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <160c2e1f90c-1726-3f3e6@webjas-vad172.srv.aolmail.net> what about ?xenon processors?? ed# ? In a message dated 1/4/2018 1:18:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Warner Losh via cctalk" To: "Murray McCullough" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 1:05 PM Subject: Re: Spectre & Meltdown > On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> This may be off-topic but these latest uprocessor exploits has raised >> a question: Are the 'old/classic' uprocessors using x86 technology in >> the same boat? The very earliest ones, i.e., 1970s and early 80's. >> probably not. How many are actually in use and/or on the Net? >> > > I've seen it reported, but haven't verified, that this bug extends about 20 > years back in the past to the Pentium Pro/Pentium II class of machines. If > I read that correctly, there's only two generations of Pentium not > affected, the P54C and P55C, the former of F00F fame... 386 and 486 CPUs > apparently aren't affected since they didn't have speculative execution. > The 8088/8086/80186/80286 presumably are also immune... If you extend > things further back, CP/M on Z80/8080 is also fine, but I don't think those > are properly x86 :) > > Warner -------- Finally, an excuse to use all those old 486 boxes... m From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Jan 4 14:44:21 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 12:44:21 -0800 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <160c2e1f90c-1726-3f3e6@webjas-vad172.srv.aolmail.net> References: <160c2e1f90c-1726-3f3e6@webjas-vad172.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <3794d165-80fa-84ff-ecfb-cb0df18841a2@jwsss.com> On 1/4/2018 12:34 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > what about ?xenon processors?? > ed# > > In a message dated 1/4/2018 1:18:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > There is no difference between them and any other intel x86 or x64 processor as far as the flaw involved. Though they are not mentioning it, I suspect one can target P3 and P4 equally well with the exploit.? It has been around that long. thanks Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Warner Losh via cctalk" > To: "Murray McCullough" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 1:05 PM > Subject: Re: Spectre & Meltdown > > >> On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> This may be off-topic but these latest uprocessor exploits has raised >>> a question: Are the 'old/classic' uprocessors using x86 technology in >>> the same boat? The very earliest ones, i.e., 1970s and early 80's. >>> probably not. How many are actually in use and/or on the Net? >>> >> I've seen it reported, but haven't verified, that this bug extends about 20 >> years back in the past to the Pentium Pro/Pentium II class of machines. If >> I read that correctly, there's only two generations of Pentium not >> affected, the P54C and P55C, the former of F00F fame... 386 and 486 CPUs >> apparently aren't affected since they didn't have speculative execution. >> The 8088/8086/80186/80286 presumably are also immune... If you extend >> things further back, CP/M on Z80/8080 is also fine, but I don't think those >> are properly x86 :) >> >> Warner > -------- > Finally, an excuse to use all those old 486 boxes... > > m > > From haskins.sophie at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 14:54:31 2018 From: haskins.sophie at gmail.com (Sophie Haskins) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:54:31 -0500 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <3794d165-80fa-84ff-ecfb-cb0df18841a2@jwsss.com> References: <160c2e1f90c-1726-3f3e6@webjas-vad172.srv.aolmail.net> <3794d165-80fa-84ff-ecfb-cb0df18841a2@jwsss.com> Message-ID: >From the exploit homepage (https://spectreattack.com/) , it seems like the Meltdown vulnerability affects all out-of-order executing Intel *branded* CPUs (from the P6 onward), and the Spectre vulnerability potentially impacts all superscalar processors of...all brands potentially :( Sophie On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 3:44 PM, jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 1/4/2018 12:34 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > >> what about xenon processors?? >> ed# >> In a message dated 1/4/2018 1:18:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> >> >> > There is no difference between them and any other intel x86 or x64 > processor as far as the flaw involved. > > Though they are not mentioning it, I suspect one can target P3 and P4 > equally well with the exploit. It has been around that long. > thanks > Jim > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Warner Losh via cctalk" >> To: "Murray McCullough" ; "General >> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 1:05 PM >> Subject: Re: Spectre & Meltdown >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> This may be off-topic but these latest uprocessor exploits has raised >>>> a question: Are the 'old/classic' uprocessors using x86 technology in >>>> the same boat? The very earliest ones, i.e., 1970s and early 80's. >>>> probably not. How many are actually in use and/or on the Net? >>>> >>>> I've seen it reported, but haven't verified, that this bug extends >>> about 20 >>> years back in the past to the Pentium Pro/Pentium II class of machines. >>> If >>> I read that correctly, there's only two generations of Pentium not >>> affected, the P54C and P55C, the former of F00F fame... 386 and 486 CPUs >>> apparently aren't affected since they didn't have speculative execution. >>> The 8088/8086/80186/80286 presumably are also immune... If you extend >>> things further back, CP/M on Z80/8080 is also fine, but I don't think >>> those >>> are properly x86 :) >>> >>> Warner >>> >> -------- >> Finally, an excuse to use all those old 486 boxes... >> >> m >> >> >> > From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Jan 4 15:01:53 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 16:01:53 -0500 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <160c2faeffc-1714-2c0d5@webjas-vaa111.srv.aolmail.net> oh oh.... ? hopefully software ?fix ?soon? ? Ed# ? In a message dated 1/4/2018 1:54:43 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? From the exploit homepage (https://spectreattack.com/) , it seems like the Meltdown vulnerability affects all out-of-order executing Intel *branded* CPUs (from the P6 onward), and the Spectre vulnerability potentially impacts all superscalar processors of...all brands potentially :( Sophie On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 3:44 PM, jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 1/4/2018 12:34 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > >> what about xenon processors?? >> ed# >> In a message dated 1/4/2018 1:18:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> >> >> > There is no difference between them and any other intel x86 or x64 > processor as far as the flaw involved. > > Though they are not mentioning it, I suspect one can target P3 and P4 > equally well with the exploit. It has been around that long. > thanks > Jim > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Warner Losh via cctalk" >> To: "Murray McCullough" ; "General >> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 1:05 PM >> Subject: Re: Spectre & Meltdown >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> This may be off-topic but these latest uprocessor exploits has raised >>>> a question: Are the 'old/classic' uprocessors using x86 technology in >>>> the same boat? The very earliest ones, i.e., 1970s and early 80's. >>>> probably not. How many are actually in use and/or on the Net? >>>> >>>> I've seen it reported, but haven't verified, that this bug extends >>> about 20 >>> years back in the past to the Pentium Pro/Pentium II class of machines. >>> If >>> I read that correctly, there's only two generations of Pentium not >>> affected, the P54C and P55C, the former of F00F fame... 386 and 486 CPUs >>> apparently aren't affected since they didn't have speculative execution. >>> The 8088/8086/80186/80286 presumably are also immune... If you extend >>> things further back, CP/M on Z80/8080 is also fine, but I don't think >>> those >>> are properly x86 :) >>> >>> Warner >>> >> -------- >> Finally, an excuse to use all those old 486 boxes... >> >> m >> >> >> > From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Jan 4 15:03:12 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 16:03:12 -0500 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> http://www.zdnet.com/article/intel-starts-issuing-patches-for-meltdown-spectre-vulnerabilities/?loc=newsletter_large_thumb_related&ftag=TREc64629f&bhid=46856739 ? this ?just ?hit ?my email box..... Ed# ? In a message dated 1/4/2018 1:54:43 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? From the exploit homepage (https://spectreattack.com/) , it seems like the Meltdown vulnerability affects all out-of-order executing Intel *branded* CPUs (from the P6 onward), and the Spectre vulnerability potentially impacts all superscalar processors of...all brands potentially :( Sophie On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 3:44 PM, jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 1/4/2018 12:34 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > >> what about xenon processors?? >> ed# >> In a message dated 1/4/2018 1:18:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> >> >> > There is no difference between them and any other intel x86 or x64 > processor as far as the flaw involved. > > Though they are not mentioning it, I suspect one can target P3 and P4 > equally well with the exploit. It has been around that long. > thanks > Jim > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Warner Losh via cctalk" >> To: "Murray McCullough" ; "General >> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 1:05 PM >> Subject: Re: Spectre & Meltdown >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> This may be off-topic but these latest uprocessor exploits has raised >>>> a question: Are the 'old/classic' uprocessors using x86 technology in >>>> the same boat? The very earliest ones, i.e., 1970s and early 80's. >>>> probably not. How many are actually in use and/or on the Net? >>>> >>>> I've seen it reported, but haven't verified, that this bug extends >>> about 20 >>> years back in the past to the Pentium Pro/Pentium II class of machines. >>> If >>> I read that correctly, there's only two generations of Pentium not >>> affected, the P54C and P55C, the former of F00F fame... 386 and 486 CPUs >>> apparently aren't affected since they didn't have speculative execution. >>> The 8088/8086/80186/80286 presumably are also immune... If you extend >>> things further back, CP/M on Z80/8080 is also fine, but I don't think >>> those >>> are properly x86 :) >>> >>> Warner >>> >> -------- >> Finally, an excuse to use all those old 486 boxes... >> >> m >> >> >> > From haskins.sophie at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 15:08:19 2018 From: haskins.sophie at gmail.com (Sophie Haskins) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 16:08:19 -0500 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: I misspoke - Spectre potentially affects all processors that use *pipelining and speculative execution*, not just superscalar ones (I mis-parsed "all modern processors capable of keeping many instructions in flight"). There's been ongoing patches to the Linux kernel for Meltdown (and for other OSes, though we can't read their mailing lists). For Spectre, though, it seems like solutions might take longer to distribute. It's kind of fascinating to run in to a cross-platform vulnerability like this! Is anyone else aware of similar vulnerabilities from history that also affected multiple processors, but relied on their implementation details? On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 4:03 PM, Ed Sharpe wrote: > http://www.zdnet.com/article/intel-starts-issuing-patches-for-meltdown-spectre-vulnerabilities/?loc=newsletter_large_thumb_related&ftag=TREc64629f&bhid=46856739 > > this just hit my email box..... Ed# > > In a message dated 1/4/2018 1:54:43 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > From the exploit homepage (https://spectreattack.com/) , it seems like the > Meltdown vulnerability affects all out-of-order executing Intel *branded* > CPUs (from the P6 onward), and the Spectre vulnerability potentially > impacts all superscalar processors of...all brands potentially :( > > Sophie > > On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 3:44 PM, jim stephens via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On 1/4/2018 12:34 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >> >>> what about xenon processors?? >>> ed# >>> In a message dated 1/4/2018 1:18:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >>> >>> >>> >> There is no difference between them and any other intel x86 or x64 >> processor as far as the flaw involved. >> >> Though they are not mentioning it, I suspect one can target P3 and P4 >> equally well with the exploit. It has been around that long. >> thanks >> Jim >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Warner Losh via cctalk" >>> To: "Murray McCullough" ; "General >>> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 1:05 PM >>> Subject: Re: Spectre & Meltdown >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk < >>>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> This may be off-topic but these latest uprocessor exploits has raised >>>>> a question: Are the 'old/classic' uprocessors using x86 technology in >>>>> the same boat? The very earliest ones, i.e., 1970s and early 80's. >>>>> probably not. How many are actually in use and/or on the Net? >>>>> >>>>> I've seen it reported, but haven't verified, that this bug extends >>>> about 20 >>>> years back in the past to the Pentium Pro/Pentium II class of machines. >>>> If >>>> I read that correctly, there's only two generations of Pentium not >>>> affected, the P54C and P55C, the former of F00F fame... 386 and 486 CPUs >>>> apparently aren't affected since they didn't have speculative execution. >>>> The 8088/8086/80186/80286 presumably are also immune... If you extend >>>> things further back, CP/M on Z80/8080 is also fine, but I don't think >>>> those >>>> are properly x86 :) >>>> >>>> Warner >>>> >>> -------- >>> Finally, an excuse to use all those old 486 boxes... >>> >>> m >>> >>> >>> >> From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 16:30:42 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 23:30:42 +0100 Subject: SGI Onyx 2 going begging (in South Africa, AFAICT) Message-ID: This should be public, so visible even if you don't have a FB login. https://www.facebook.com/jserwach/posts/1804323786269276 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 4 17:17:48 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:17:48 -0800 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> On 01/04/2018 01:08 PM, Sophie Haskins via cctalk wrote: > It's kind of fascinating to run in to a cross-platform vulnerability > like this! Is anyone else aware of similar vulnerabilities from > history that also affected multiple processors, but relied on their > implementation details? Funny, I've been saying since the 1980s that it you have something that's critical to your survival, keep it offline. Until any of my PCs develop the ability to go to my storage cabinet and fetch a DVD and load it into itself, I'm not sorried. --Chuck From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Jan 4 17:26:28 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:26:28 -0800 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> Message-ID: <000e01d385b3$72da0f90$588e2eb0$@net> > Funny, I've been saying since the 1980s that it you have something > that's critical to your survival, keep it offline. Here here! I hope this is a wakeup call to all the people out there with all the unnecessary connected "lives". Forget all the social media BS but also the cloud storage, streaming everything (and not really having control of anything you "own"), IoT, and of course software as a service. As I understand it the exploits only work if run on the machine locally - which can occur if you run a malicious JavaScript through your browser.... So if you don't have to go on the internet just to run your email program to check your mail you (i.e. webmail or outlook online vs. POP/IMAP access) then you are more secure... I've gone out of my way to make sure I buy only equipment that I can connect to directly and is not dependent on some ephemeral cloud service whenever humanly possible. It may be less convenient or more technical but at the end it is always more secure (well not always but you get the idea). -Ali From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 4 17:53:50 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:53:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Jan 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Funny, I've been saying since the 1980s that it you have something > that's critical to your survival, keep it offline. > Until any of my PCs develop the ability to go to my storage cabinet and > fetch a DVD and load it into itself, I'm not sorried. So, that Exabyte Tape/cartridge Silo might not be such a good idea. I always wanted Keith Hensen's "Kubik"? CD changer. Big "carousel slide tray" full of 240?! CDs/DVDs, in a square box, with a drive in each corner. The drives were SCSI, and the load/unload/select control was RS232. The big square boxes could be stacked, for a larger collection, and there was a trivial mod to make the tray removable, so that the top box could be swapped with as many trays as you had shelf space for. 'course hard drives caught up, and I now have about a thousand DVDs in MP4s on a shirt pocket HDD. (including ALL of the Doctor Who's that were released on DVD, Red Dwarf 1 - XII, Dark Matter, Torchwood, Twilight Zone, Prisoner, Marx Brothers, Doc Martin, One Foot In The Grave, etc.) The DVD images (V .MP4) take over 5TB. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 4 18:01:47 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 00:01:47 +0000 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> , <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck, You do have to repower your machine. You never know what is still laying around in memory. If the byte are anywhere in memory, there is always some way to find them. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 3:17:48 PM To: Sophie Haskins via cctalk Subject: Re: Spectre & Meltdown On 01/04/2018 01:08 PM, Sophie Haskins via cctalk wrote: > It's kind of fascinating to run in to a cross-platform vulnerability > like this! Is anyone else aware of similar vulnerabilities from > history that also affected multiple processors, but relied on their > implementation details? Funny, I've been saying since the 1980s that it you have something that's critical to your survival, keep it offline. Until any of my PCs develop the ability to go to my storage cabinet and fetch a DVD and load it into itself, I'm not sorried. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 4 18:57:29 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 16:57:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: MP4s (Was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Jan 2018, Wayne Sudol wrote: > You forgot "Outer Limits". I put that show in the same category. I'll be adding the Original Series later this month. I haven't made a decision about the revival. I use a Seagate GoFlex-TV; 2TB is the largest thin 2.5" SATA currently available. also in the "bay" of my Lenovo laptops. Currently, the cheapest source is to buy it as a USB3 external, and strip off the case, and then put some of them in computers, and others into Seagate GoFlex cases (just a shell around a SATA) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jan 4 19:50:02 2018 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 20:50:02 -0500 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> Hard drives NEVER keep up. Bragging about how many DVD's (90's technology) you can store on current HD means little to people who have ultra HD Blueray videos that take up to 100GB of space. Heck even a single game download can be 50GB these days. And I wouldn't mind one of those old networked DVD changers (I think Sony sold them commercially) to play around with. -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 6:53 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Spectre & Meltdown On Thu, 4 Jan 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Funny, I've been saying since the 1980s that it you have something > that's critical to your survival, keep it offline. > Until any of my PCs develop the ability to go to my storage cabinet and > fetch a DVD and load it into itself, I'm not sorried. So, that Exabyte Tape/cartridge Silo might not be such a good idea. I always wanted Keith Hensen's "Kubik"? CD changer. Big "carousel slide tray" full of 240?! CDs/DVDs, in a square box, with a drive in each corner. The drives were SCSI, and the load/unload/select control was RS232. The big square boxes could be stacked, for a larger collection, and there was a trivial mod to make the tray removable, so that the top box could be swapped with as many trays as you had shelf space for. 'course hard drives caught up, and I now have about a thousand DVDs in MP4s on a shirt pocket HDD. (including ALL of the Doctor Who's that were released on DVD, Red Dwarf 1 - XII, Dark Matter, Torchwood, Twilight Zone, Prisoner, Marx Brothers, Doc Martin, One Foot In The Grave, etc.) The DVD images (V .MP4) take over 5TB. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 4 20:38:10 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 18:38:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Jan 2018, TeoZ wrote: > Hard drives NEVER keep up. Bragging about how many DVD's (90's technology) > you can store on current HD means little to people who have ultra HD Blueray > videos that take up to 100GB of space. Heck even a single game download can > be 50GB these days. I'd be interested in hearing about opinions of the 100GB "M-disc". I've heard that they have decent longevity, and, the "low" capacity ones are interchangeable with conventional DVDs. I can still put 20 100GB DVDs (2017 technology) on a 2TB 2.5" Thin SATA. However, I'm also looking for multi-terabyte storage. Are higher capacity DVDs on their way? Howzbout multi-TearByte SSDs? > And I wouldn't mind one of those old networked DVD changers (I think Sony > sold them commercially) to play around with. I still want one of the ones that Kieth Hensen designed. Converting it from CD to DVD would be completely TRIVIAL (finding DVD drives with suitable form factors and loading options) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > I always wanted Keith Hensen's "Kubik"? CD changer. Big "carousel slide > tray" full of 240?! CDs/DVDs, in a square box, with a drive in each > corner. The drives were SCSI, and the load/unload/select control was > RS232. The big square boxes could be stacked, for a larger collection, and > there was a trivial mod to make the tray removable, so that the top box > could be swapped with as many trays as you had shelf space for. > > 'course hard drives caught up, and I now have about a thousand DVDs in > MP4s on a shirt pocket HDD. (including ALL of the Doctor Who's that were > released on DVD, Red Dwarf 1 - XII, Dark Matter, Torchwood, Twilight Zone, > Prisoner, Marx Brothers, Doc Martin, One Foot In The Grave, etc.) The DVD > images (V .MP4) take over 5TB. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 20:44:36 2018 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 00:44:36 -0200 Subject: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> Message-ID: Files grew up in size, in an unbelieable scale. I follow the tips of my friends: Buy new HDs and use old ones for storage. I have a 5TB (expensive) external 3 1/2 HD on my home server, and some 1TB HDs used as backups. If you count capacity, cheaper than DVDs-DL or BDs. Em 05/01/2018 00:38, Fred Cisin via cctalk escreveu: > On Thu, 4 Jan 2018, TeoZ wrote: >> Hard drives NEVER keep up. Bragging about how many DVD's (90's >> technology) you can store on current HD means little to people who >> have ultra HD Blueray videos that take up to 100GB of space. Heck even >> a single game download can be 50GB these days. > > I'd be interested in hearing about opinions of the 100GB "M-disc".? I've > heard that they have decent longevity, and, the "low" capacity ones are > interchangeable with conventional DVDs. > > I can still put 20 100GB DVDs (2017 technology) on a 2TB 2.5" Thin SATA. > However, I'm also looking for multi-terabyte storage. > Are higher capacity DVDs on their way? > Howzbout multi-TearByte SSDs? > > >> And I wouldn't mind one of those old networked DVD changers (I think >> Sony sold them commercially) to play around with. > > I still want one of the ones that Kieth Hensen designed. Converting it > from CD to DVD would be completely TRIVIAL (finding DVD drives with > suitable form factors and loading options) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com > > > > >> I always wanted Keith Hensen's "Kubik"? CD changer.? Big "carousel slide >> tray" full of 240?! CDs/DVDs, in a square box, with a drive in each >> corner.? The drives were SCSI, and the load/unload/select control was >> RS232. The big square boxes could be stacked, for a larger collection, >> and >> there was a trivial mod to make the tray removable, so that the top box >> could be swapped with as many trays as you had shelf space for. >> >> 'course hard drives caught up, and I now have about a thousand DVDs in >> MP4s on a shirt pocket HDD.? (including ALL of the Doctor Who's that were >> released on DVD, Red Dwarf 1 - XII, Dark Matter, Torchwood, Twilight >> Zone, >> Prisoner, Marx Brothers, Doc Martin, One Foot In The Grave, etc.) The DVD >> images (V .MP4) take over 5TB. > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 4 20:45:46 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 18:45:46 -0800 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> Message-ID: <4b817426-34f5-46cc-6720-5012ce01d017@sydex.com> On 01/04/2018 05:50 PM, TeoZ via cctalk wrote: > Hard drives NEVER keep up. Bragging about how many DVD's (90's > technology) you can store on current HD means little to people who have > ultra HD Blueray videos that take up to 100GB of space. Heck even a > single game download can be 50GB these days. In my case, it's mostly a matter of the following: What can't I afford to lose? This falls into the following general ares: 1. Customer data (kept offline anyway, as it can be sensitive) 2. Code I have written and would be hard put to reconstruct. 3. Documentation that would be difficult to find again. 4. Emails. 5. Business records The rest I can afford to lose and could be duplicated if needed. This model has served me well for at least 40 years. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jan 4 21:18:39 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2018 21:18:39 -0600 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A4EEE8F.40406@pico-systems.com> On 01/04/2018 12:00 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > This may be off-topic but these latest uprocessor exploits has raised > a question: Are the 'old/classic' uprocessors using x86 technology in > the same boat? The very earliest ones, i.e., 1970s and early 80's. > probably not. How many are actually in use and/or on the Net? > > No, these did not have a translation lookaside buffer or memory management. In fact, they mostly all ran in real mode, no protection. Jon From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jan 4 23:16:43 2018 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 00:16:43 -0500 Subject: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> Message-ID: 100GB M-Discs are dual layer BlueRay media correct (not readable on a DVD player)? I actually have a BDXL BR burner. I also have the M-Disc capable DVD burners but never tried that media on them. -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 9:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown On Thu, 4 Jan 2018, TeoZ wrote: > Hard drives NEVER keep up. Bragging about how many DVD's (90's technology) > you can store on current HD means little to people who have ultra HD > Blueray videos that take up to 100GB of space. Heck even a single game > download can be 50GB these days. I'd be interested in hearing about opinions of the 100GB "M-disc". I've heard that they have decent longevity, and, the "low" capacity ones are interchangeable with conventional DVDs. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 4 23:48:22 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 05:48:22 +0000 Subject: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> , Message-ID: For other reasons, I was just at costco and bought a 500Gig solid state for $150. It is about the size of a postcard ( only square ). It is USB though, so loading that much may take a while. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of TeoZ via cctalk Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 9:16:43 PM To: Fred Cisin; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown 100GB M-Discs are dual layer BlueRay media correct (not readable on a DVD player)? I actually have a BDXL BR burner. I also have the M-Disc capable DVD burners but never tried that media on them. -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 9:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown On Thu, 4 Jan 2018, TeoZ wrote: > Hard drives NEVER keep up. Bragging about how many DVD's (90's technology) > you can store on current HD means little to people who have ultra HD > Blueray videos that take up to 100GB of space. Heck even a single game > download can be 50GB these days. I'd be interested in hearing about opinions of the 100GB "M-disc". I've heard that they have decent longevity, and, the "low" capacity ones are interchangeable with conventional DVDs. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From wsudol at scng.com Thu Jan 4 17:58:04 2018 From: wsudol at scng.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:58:04 -0800 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> Message-ID: You forgot "Outer Limits". I put that show in the same category. Wayne Sudol Riverside PressEnterprise A DigitalFirst Media Newspaper. On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 3:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jan 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> Funny, I've been saying since the 1980s that it you have something >> that's critical to your survival, keep it offline. >> Until any of my PCs develop the ability to go to my storage cabinet and >> fetch a DVD and load it into itself, I'm not sorried. >> > > So, that Exabyte Tape/cartridge Silo might not be such a good idea. > > I always wanted Keith Hensen's "Kubik"? CD changer. Big "carousel slide > tray" full of 240?! CDs/DVDs, in a square box, with a drive in each > corner. The drives were SCSI, and the load/unload/select control was > RS232. The big square boxes could be stacked, for a larger collection, and > there was a trivial mod to make the tray removable, so that the top box > could be swapped with as many trays as you had shelf space for. > > 'course hard drives caught up, and I now have about a thousand DVDs in > MP4s on a shirt pocket HDD. (including ALL of the Doctor Who's that were > released on DVD, Red Dwarf 1 - XII, Dark Matter, Torchwood, Twilight Zone, > Prisoner, Marx Brothers, Doc Martin, One Foot In The Grave, etc.) The DVD > images (V .MP4) take over 5TB. > From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 01:35:12 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 00:35:12 -0700 Subject: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2018 22:17, "TeoZ via cctalk" wrote: 100GB M-Discs are dual layer BlueRay media correct (not readable on a DVD player)? I actually have a BDXL BR burner. They are three-layer, and will ONLY work on BDXL drives, not older BD drives. From lars at nocrew.org Fri Jan 5 05:14:25 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2018 11:14:25 +0000 Subject: PDP-10 subreddit In-Reply-To: (Wayne Sudol via cctalk's message of "Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:58:04 -0800") References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7wmv1swoa6.fsf_-_@junk.nocrew.org> Here's a PDP-10 subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/PDP10/ From mazzinia at tin.it Fri Jan 5 07:15:18 2018 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 14:15:18 +0100 Subject: R: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> Message-ID: <007501d38627$3c2bb420$b4831c60$@tin.it> I'm not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless maybe using enterprise level ones. Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for 6 months if unpowered... any more time means being lucky. Would suck to save, store, and after some years find the data mangled... -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Fred Cisin via cctalk Inviato: venerd? 5 gennaio 2018 03:38 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown On Thu, 4 Jan 2018, TeoZ wrote: > Hard drives NEVER keep up. Bragging about how many DVD's (90's > technology) you can store on current HD means little to people who > have ultra HD Blueray videos that take up to 100GB of space. Heck even > a single game download can be 50GB these days. I'd be interested in hearing about opinions of the 100GB "M-disc". I've heard that they have decent longevity, and, the "low" capacity ones are interchangeable with conventional DVDs. I can still put 20 100GB DVDs (2017 technology) on a 2TB 2.5" Thin SATA. However, I'm also looking for multi-terabyte storage. Are higher capacity DVDs on their way? Howzbout multi-TearByte SSDs? > And I wouldn't mind one of those old networked DVD changers (I think > Sony sold them commercially) to play around with. I still want one of the ones that Kieth Hensen designed. Converting it from CD to DVD would be completely TRIVIAL (finding DVD drives with suitable form factors and loading options) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > I always wanted Keith Hensen's "Kubik"? CD changer. Big "carousel > slide tray" full of 240?! CDs/DVDs, in a square box, with a drive in > each corner. The drives were SCSI, and the load/unload/select control > was RS232. The big square boxes could be stacked, for a larger > collection, and there was a trivial mod to make the tray removable, so > that the top box could be swapped with as many trays as you had shelf space for. > > 'course hard drives caught up, and I now have about a thousand DVDs in > MP4s on a shirt pocket HDD. (including ALL of the Doctor Who's that > were released on DVD, Red Dwarf 1 - XII, Dark Matter, Torchwood, > Twilight Zone, Prisoner, Marx Brothers, Doc Martin, One Foot In The > Grave, etc.) The DVD images (V .MP4) take over 5TB. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jan 5 08:02:10 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 09:02:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Able ENABLE (was: Boot RXS) Message-ID: <20180105140210.1C63018C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> >> From: Jim Stephens >> I had a meeting with Ken Omohundro on 12/7 and will be having dinner >> with him again soon. I'll ask him about it. I know he doesn't have any >> records left, but I could take him your notes and see what he recalls. > Thanks very much for that offer; we do think we know more or less how it > works So, I have completed what I think is a pretty thorough article on the CHWiki about the ENABLE: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Able_ENABLE It contains _everything_ I was able to glean from the still-extant documentation, etc, which I have access to. There is enough detail there to add support for it to SIMH/Ersatz-11 (hint, hint :-). > there are two areas in which he might be able to help. > The first is some very low-level details of how it worked, in terms of > the UNIBUS interaction ... I _surmise_ that it was something like it > watches NPR/SACK for a DMA cycle .. then waits for BBSY to cycle, at > which point it knows it's a DMA cycle Having refreshed my memory of how DMA cycles worked, I suspect it just watched SACK and BBSY (since technically a UNIBUS device can do DMA cycles after grabbing the bus with BRn), so no need to watch NPR. > The second is some details of how some of the optional stuff for using > existing memory, non-DMA devices, etc worked. ... I'll have to go > re-read the documentation Having looked again, I don't think there's any mystery; probably I just hadn't carefully read it before. One question I do have, though: why the limit (per the documentation) to 128KB of old memory? If I'm correcly understanding how the MemDap works (it apparently makes the address space of the 'secondary' UNIBUS appear on top of the EUB memory, on the EUB) it should be able to handle up to 248KB? (The top 8KB is the I/O space on the secondary UNIBUS, which, if devices on the secondary UNIBUS are to be supported, must be visible to the CPU through the ENABLE.) > It would also be interesting to know why he just didn't use a 3-bus > design .. I suspect that the answer is that they way they did it, they > could use a stock MUD backplane ... and only one over-the-back [UNIBUS] > connector into the ENABLE [there probably wasn't room for a second]. This too. >> I hope to get a biography and history of his companies including Able, >> and figure somewhere to get it stored. > The Computer History wiki would seem an ideal place for this sort of > content? Reaction? Noel From cube1 at charter.net Fri Jan 5 08:48:29 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 08:48:29 -0600 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> Message-ID: A 6TB hard drive, available for about $130 (or less), would be equivalent to about 60 of the 100GB BDXL disks, which seem to go for about $6 each, so $360 for around 6TB. And the hard disk will take less time to read and write. And the hard drive would take up less space. JRJ On 1/4/2018 7:50 PM, TeoZ via cctalk wrote: > Hard drives NEVER keep up. Bragging about how many DVD's (90's > technology) you can store on current HD means little to people who have > ultra HD Blueray videos that take up to 100GB of space. Heck even a > single game download can be 50GB these days. > > And I wouldn't mind one of those old networked DVD changers (I think > Sony sold them commercially) to play around with. > From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 13:07:19 2018 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2018 13:07:19 -0600 Subject: R: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <007501d38627$3c2bb420$b4831c60$@tin.it> Message-ID: <5a4fccec.155e9d0a.7a64a.1e33@mx.google.com> You're one of the first people I've heard quote that. Do you know where that is said? Years ago several friends and myself all picked up 64mb usb thumb drives so we could have multiple backups of a game and few other projects we were coding.? Maybe it was an extended period of time (we ended up switching to compatible removable drive bays) but 2 out of 3 of us lost all the data on our thumb drives around the same time.? I haven't heard may others share the concern but i wouldn't use ssd as a tech unless im forced to for that reason. -------- Original message --------From: Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk Date: 1/5/18 7:15 AM (GMT-06:00) I'm? not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless maybe using enterprise level ones. Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for 6 months if unpowered... any more time means being lucky. Would suck to save, store, and after some years find (over snipped) From rickb at bensene.com Fri Jan 5 13:18:53 2018 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 11:18:53 -0800 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <160c2e1f90c-1726-3f3e6@webjas-vad172.srv.aolmail.net> References: <160c2e1f90c-1726-3f3e6@webjas-vad172.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AF18@mail.bensene.com> Ed Sharpe wrote: >what about xenon processors?? Xenon? You mean the processor jointly developed by Microsoft & IBM based on the PowerPC architecture, developed and used in the Xbox 360? Or perhaps did you mean Xeon (note no N in the middle)? There is a big difference. Don't know if the Xenon is susceptible, but given that the problem is with the way VM works, it could be susceptible, but the code to exploit it would be completely different because of the PowerPC architecture. Intel Xeon processors are marketed toward non-consumer computers such as servers and workstations. All Xeon processors are susceptible because they all do speculative execution. The solution to avoiding infection is not to use any web browser that has Java enabled....at least for now. Of course, get rid of Flash if you have it. It could also be a vector, though that hasn't been proven. Use no-script. Better yet, use a text-only browser that ignores all scripting of any kind. Don't install /any/ software for any source for which you are not completely assured of safety (good luck). Get rid of any software on your machine that you are not 100% sure about, especially if it can automatically update itself. If you have any third-party software that is set to auto-update, either turn the feature off, or only allow you to determine when updates are applied. Of course, update your OS as soon as updates are available, as patches (which will likely slow your system down) are forthcoming from Microsoft and various Linux trees. The best defense, however, is simply call your ISP and tell them you want your connection turned off. ;-) It's getting really dangerous out there. -Rick --- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jan 5 13:52:56 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 11:52:56 -0800 Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging Message-ID: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> Hi, I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would somehow like to image them so: a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the contents of multiple floppies to make a single good one These are all 8? diskettes. The complicating factors in all of this are: a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for c) not sure what the ?on-disk? structure looks like d) the only 8? diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment Any ideas/comments would be welcome. Thanks. TTFN - Guy From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Jan 5 13:56:13 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 12:56:13 -0700 Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> References: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would somehow > like to image them so: > a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad > b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the > contents of multiple floppies to > make a single good one > > These are all 8? diskettes. > > The complicating factors in all of this are: > a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII > b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for > c) not sure what the ?on-disk? structure looks like > d) the only 8? diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment > > Any ideas/comments would be welcome. > I love the imaging capabilities of kryoflux (http://www.kyroflux.com/). You'd have to remove the 8" floppy from the IBM and connect it to the kyroflux to do the imaging. Warner From rich.cini at verizon.net Fri Jan 5 14:07:51 2018 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (rich.cini at verizon.net) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 20:07:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging In-Reply-To: References: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <50535CCF801FC1A0.A6A818D3-F641-45D4-8F63-44DC9CD0651C@mail.outlook.com> I don?t know much about the system itself but if it used one of the typical IBM 8? diskette formats, you may be able to use IMD or Teledisk and an appropriate multi-density floppy controller. I?ve had pretty good success with those two programs. Get Outlook for iOS On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 2:56 PM -0500, "Warner Losh via cctalk" wrote: On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would somehow > like to image them so: > a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad > b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the > contents of multiple floppies to > make a single good one > > These are all 8? diskettes. > > The complicating factors in all of this are: > a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII > b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for > c) not sure what the ?on-disk? structure looks like > d) the only 8? diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment > > Any ideas/comments would be welcome. > I love the imaging capabilities of kryoflux (http://www.kyroflux.com/). You'd have to remove the 8" floppy from the IBM and connect it to the kyroflux to do the imaging. Warner From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 14:08:04 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 12:08:04 -0800 Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> References: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would somehow > like to image them so: > a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad > b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the > contents of multiple floppies to > make a single good one > > These are all 8? diskettes. > > The complicating factors in all of this are: > a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII > b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for > c) not sure what the ?on-disk? structure looks like > d) the only 8? diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment > > Any ideas/comments would be welcome. > As far as backing up the floppies, I used ImageDisk with an 8" Shugart 850 hooked up to a PC to image and duplicate the microcode floppies for the 43xx machines we have at the museum. It works quite well. Obviously this would require you to pick up a "new" 8" drive (I've no experience with IBM 8" drives, but I wager they're not going to "just work" with a PC FDC.) The IMD tools come with an image viewer that can translate EBCDIC, though you'll probably want something more advanced to actually modify/splice things. - Josh > > Thanks. > > TTFN - Guy > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 5 14:13:00 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 12:13:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: R: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <007501d38627$3c2bb420$b4831c60$@tin.it> References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> <007501d38627$3c2bb420$b4831c60$@tin.it> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > I'm not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless maybe > using enterprise level ones. > Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for 6 months > if unpowered... any more time means being lucky. Would suck to save, store, > and after some years find the data mangled... Yep! SSD would be very unsuitable for archiving. But, it is a nice fast medium for short-term uses. AND, it MIGHT be the first to get a unit larger than 2TB that will fit in a thin 2.5" form factor. Probably better SHORT-TERM reliability than the Seagate 2TB thin SATA spinning rust. What is the archival life of a BDXL, other than M-disc? M-disc media is a bit expensive. It looks like an excellent medium for data collections a tenth the size of what I'm playing with. It seems that it is still necessary to maintain multiple copies (geographically separate - we had a 4.4 quake yesterday morning), on multiple different media, and make new copies on a regular basis. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 5 14:21:59 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 12:21:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: R: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <5a4fccec.155e9d0a.7a64a.1e33@mx.google.com> References: <5a4fccec.155e9d0a.7a64a.1e33@mx.google.com> Message-ID: In cases where the source remains available, in case of problems, nothing can beat it for sneaker-net. It does not contribute noticeably to the transfer speeds. On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote: > You're one of the first people I've heard quote that. Do you know where > that is said? Years ago several friends and myself all picked up 64mb > usb thumb drives so we could have multiple backups of a game and few > other projects we were coding.? Maybe it was an extended period of time > (we ended up switching to compatible removable drive bays) but 2 out of > 3 of us lost all the data on our thumb drives around the same time.? > I haven't heard may others share the concern but i wouldn't use ssd as a > tech unless im forced to for that reason. -------- Original message --------From: Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk Date: 1/5/18 7:15 AM (GMT-06:00) I'm? not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless maybe using enterprise level ones. Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for 6 months if unpowered... any more time means being lucky. Would suck to save, store, and after some years find (over snipped) From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Jan 5 14:24:04 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 13:24:04 -0700 Subject: R: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> <007501d38627$3c2bb420$b4831c60$@tin.it> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > >> I'm not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless maybe >> using enterprise level ones. >> Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for 6 >> months >> > The JEDEC spec for Consumer grade SSDs is 1 year unpowered at 30C at end of life. The JEDEC spec for Enterprise grade SSDs is 90 days, unpowered at 30C at end of life. As far as I've seen, all SATA and NVME drive vendors adhere to these specs as a minimum, but there's also a new class of drive for 'cold storage' which has high retention, but low endurance and longer data read times... > if unpowered... any more time means being lucky. Would suck to save, store, >> and after some years find the data mangled... >> > > Yep! > SSD would be very unsuitable for archiving. > Unworn (meaning only a few P/E cycles) SSDs made from MLC or SLC NAND have data retention measured in the decade range. Stored at 0C, these would have ~300 year data retention since every 10C below the benchmark temperature gives you 3x longer retention. Conversely, storing at 40C or 50C puts the data at risk. Worn (meaning near end of life) SSDs, especially those that have been pushed past end of life, have issues. But, it is a nice fast medium for short-term uses. > AND, it MIGHT be the first to get a unit larger than 2TB that will fit in > a thin 2.5" form factor. > Probably better SHORT-TERM reliability than the Seagate 2TB thin SATA > spinning rust. > > > What is the archival life of a BDXL, other than M-disc? > M-disc media is a bit expensive. > It looks like an excellent medium for data collections a tenth the size of > what I'm playing with. > > > It seems that it is still necessary to maintain multiple copies > (geographically separate - we had a 4.4 quake yesterday morning), on > multiple different media, and make new copies on a regular basis. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 5 14:44:39 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 15:44:39 -0500 Subject: Large discs In-Reply-To: References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> <007501d38627$3c2bb420$b4831c60$@tin.it> Message-ID: > On Jan 5, 2018, at 3:24 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: >> >>> I'm not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless maybe >>> using enterprise level ones. >>> Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for 6 >>> months >>> >> > The JEDEC spec for Consumer grade SSDs is 1 year unpowered at 30C at end of > life. > The JEDEC spec for Enterprise grade SSDs is 90 days, unpowered at 30C at > end of life. That's curious. Then again, end of life for enterprise SSDs is many thousands of write passes over the full disk (or the same amount of writes to smaller address ranges thanks to remapping). Under high but not insane loads that takes 5-7 years. So presumably the retention while fairly new (not very worn) is much better. Still it's surprising to see a number that small. > As far as I've seen, all SATA and NVME drive vendors adhere to these specs > as a minimum, but there's also a new class of drive for 'cold storage' > which has high retention, but low endurance and longer data read times... I don't know if the "cold storage" SSD stuff is going anywhere. But in any case, it seems to aim at high density at the expense of low endurance. I don't remember hearing retention discussed at all, higher or unchanged. Having drives with limited retention seems quite problematic. And "unpowered" suggests that leaving the power on would help -- but I don't see why that would be so. As for writable DVDs and such, do they have any useful retention specs? paul From mazzinia at tin.it Fri Jan 5 15:01:49 2018 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 22:01:49 +0100 Subject: R: Large discs In-Reply-To: References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> <007501d38627$3c2bb420$b4831c60$@tin.it> Message-ID: <00c101d38668$68383070$38a89150$@tin.it> The M kind of dvd supports guarantee over 1000 years of retention, and resistance to acid/alien invasion/etc -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Paul Koning via cctalk Inviato: venerd? 5 gennaio 2018 21:45 A: Warner Losh; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: Large discs > On Jan 5, 2018, at 3:24 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > > wrote: > >> On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: >> >>> I'm not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless >>> maybe using enterprise level ones. >>> Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for >>> 6 months >>> >> > The JEDEC spec for Consumer grade SSDs is 1 year unpowered at 30C at > end of life. > The JEDEC spec for Enterprise grade SSDs is 90 days, unpowered at 30C > at end of life. That's curious. Then again, end of life for enterprise SSDs is many thousands of write passes over the full disk (or the same amount of writes to smaller address ranges thanks to remapping). Under high but not insane loads that takes 5-7 years. So presumably the retention while fairly new (not very worn) is much better. Still it's surprising to see a number that small. > As far as I've seen, all SATA and NVME drive vendors adhere to these > specs as a minimum, but there's also a new class of drive for 'cold storage' > which has high retention, but low endurance and longer data read times... I don't know if the "cold storage" SSD stuff is going anywhere. But in any case, it seems to aim at high density at the expense of low endurance. I don't remember hearing retention discussed at all, higher or unchanged. Having drives with limited retention seems quite problematic. And "unpowered" suggests that leaving the power on would help -- but I don't see why that would be so. As for writable DVDs and such, do they have any useful retention specs? paul From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Jan 5 15:15:11 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 14:15:11 -0700 Subject: Large discs In-Reply-To: References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> <007501d38627$3c2bb420$b4831c60$@tin.it> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 1:44 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Jan 5, 2018, at 3:24 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> wrote: > > > >> On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > >> > >>> I'm not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless > maybe > >>> using enterprise level ones. > >>> Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for 6 > >>> months > >>> > >> > > The JEDEC spec for Consumer grade SSDs is 1 year unpowered at 30C at end > of > > life. > > The JEDEC spec for Enterprise grade SSDs is 90 days, unpowered at 30C at > > end of life. > > That's curious. Then again, end of life for enterprise SSDs is many > thousands of write passes over the full disk (or the same amount of writes > to smaller address ranges thanks to remapping). Under high but not insane > loads that takes 5-7 years. So presumably the retention while fairly new > (not very worn) is much better. Still it's surprising to see a number that > small. > There's method in this madness... The enterprise drives are trading retention for speed and endurance. When you design NAND storage devices, you basically get to pick two of the following to optimize for: speed, retention, endurance. Consumer drives are optimized for less endurance, better retention and decent speed. Enterprise drives are optimized for maximum speed, good endurance and OK retention. > > As far as I've seen, all SATA and NVME drive vendors adhere to these > specs > > as a minimum, but there's also a new class of drive for 'cold storage' > > which has high retention, but low endurance and longer data read times... > > I don't know if the "cold storage" SSD stuff is going anywhere. But in > any case, it seems to aim at high density at the expense of low endurance. > I don't remember hearing retention discussed at all, higher or unchanged. > I've seen briefings that suggest higher retention for that class of product, but I've not seen the JEDEC profile for it yet. > Having drives with limited retention seems quite problematic. And > "unpowered" suggests that leaving the power on would help -- but I don't > see why that would be so. > That's simple: powered drives have firmware running. The firmware can manage the NAND such that it reads the data in just enough time to ensure it can do it reliably before rewriting it to another part of the drive. Unpowered, it can't do that. > As for writable DVDs and such, do they have any useful retention specs? > No clue there. I worked for 3 years on a NMVE flash drive so got to learn all about this junk there since my job focused on NAND reliability and ensuring we met our benchmark numbers for speed, endurance and retention in the different configuration we sold. Warner From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 5 15:27:24 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 13:27:24 -0800 Subject: R: Large discs In-Reply-To: <00c101d38668$68383070$38a89150$@tin.it> References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> <007501d38627$3c2bb420$b4831c60$@tin.it> <00c101d38668$68383070$38a89150$@tin.it> Message-ID: <3a1e7f06-f0a8-cd7e-02cb-4e39093f8921@sydex.com> On 01/05/2018 01:01 PM, Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk wrote: > The M kind of dvd supports guarantee over 1000 years of retention, and > resistance to acid/alien invasion/etc Here's a government-(Canada) sponsored paper on the subject: https://www.canada.ca/en/conservation-institute/services/conservation-preservation-publications/canadian-conservation-institute-notes/longevity-recordable-cds-dvds.html In any case, my DVDs will last longer than I will. --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 5 15:33:47 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 21:33:47 +0000 Subject: Large discs In-Reply-To: <00c101d38668$68383070$38a89150$@tin.it> References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> <007501d38627$3c2bb420$b4831c60$@tin.it> , <00c101d38668$68383070$38a89150$@tin.it> Message-ID: Do they also guarantee there will be a device capable of reading it in 1000 years? bill ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 4:01 PM To: 'Paul Koning'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: R: Large discs The M kind of dvd supports guarantee over 1000 years of retention, and resistance to acid/alien invasion/etc -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Paul Koning via cctalk Inviato: venerd? 5 gennaio 2018 21:45 A: Warner Losh; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: Large discs > On Jan 5, 2018, at 3:24 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > > wrote: > >> On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: >> >>> I'm not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless >>> maybe using enterprise level ones. >>> Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for >>> 6 months >>> >> > The JEDEC spec for Consumer grade SSDs is 1 year unpowered at 30C at > end of life. > The JEDEC spec for Enterprise grade SSDs is 90 days, unpowered at 30C > at end of life. That's curious. Then again, end of life for enterprise SSDs is many thousands of write passes over the full disk (or the same amount of writes to smaller address ranges thanks to remapping). Under high but not insane loads that takes 5-7 years. So presumably the retention while fairly new (not very worn) is much better. Still it's surprising to see a number that small. > As far as I've seen, all SATA and NVME drive vendors adhere to these > specs as a minimum, but there's also a new class of drive for 'cold storage' > which has high retention, but low endurance and longer data read times... I don't know if the "cold storage" SSD stuff is going anywhere. But in any case, it seems to aim at high density at the expense of low endurance. I don't remember hearing retention discussed at all, higher or unchanged. Having drives with limited retention seems quite problematic. And "unpowered" suggests that leaving the power on would help -- but I don't see why that would be so. As for writable DVDs and such, do they have any useful retention specs? paul From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 15:38:51 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 17:38:51 -0400 Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging In-Reply-To: References: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 2018-01-05 4:08 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would somehow >> like to image them so: >> a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad >> b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the >> contents of multiple floppies to >> make a single good one >> >> These are all 8? diskettes. >> >> The complicating factors in all of this are: >> a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII >> b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for >> c) not sure what the ?on-disk? structure looks like >> d) the only 8? diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment >> >> Any ideas/comments would be welcome. >> > > As far as backing up the floppies, I used ImageDisk with an 8" Shugart 850 > hooked up to a PC to image and duplicate the microcode floppies for the > 43xx machines we have at the museum. It works quite well. Obviously this > would require you to pick up a "new" 8" drive (I've no experience with IBM > 8" drives, but I wager they're not going to "just work" with a PC FDC.) > > The IMD tools come with an image viewer that can translate EBCDIC, though > you'll probably want something more advanced to actually modify/splice > things. > > - Josh > > >> Thanks. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> the IBM manufactured 8" drives are not going to work on a PC the signals on the interfaces are quite different and there is no track zero signal, in IBM systems when they initialized they did enough down steps to? ensure head was at track zero.? Anyone that has heard a 33FD drive seek zero will remember the sound that they made when the carriage hammered on the down stop, the problem was the stop would break off and the carriage would go below track zero.? There where some 8" drive assemblies manufactured for AS/400 that do use drives with and "industry standard" interface I recently saw an external one for sale on eBay. Paul. From db at db.net Fri Jan 5 16:07:12 2018 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 17:07:12 -0500 Subject: Large discs In-Reply-To: References: <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> <007501d38627$3c2bb420$b4831c60$@tin.it> <00c101d38668$68383070$38a89150$@tin.it> Message-ID: <20180105220712.GA47961@night.db.net> On Fri, Jan 05, 2018 at 09:33:47PM +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Do they also guarantee there will be a device capable of reading it > in 1000 years? It was bad enough with the BBC Domesday project. Paper. Paper is the only way. acid free paper. > > bill > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk > Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 4:01 PM > To: 'Paul Koning'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: R: Large discs > > The M kind of dvd supports guarantee over 1000 years of retention, and > resistance to acid/alien invasion/etc > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Paul Koning > via cctalk > Inviato: venerd? 5 gennaio 2018 21:45 > A: Warner Losh; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Oggetto: Re: Large discs > > > > > On Jan 5, 2018, at 3:24 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > > >> wrote: > > > >> On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > >> > >>> I'm not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless > >>> maybe using enterprise level ones. > >>> Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for > >>> 6 months > >>> > >> > > The JEDEC spec for Consumer grade SSDs is 1 year unpowered at 30C at > > end of life. > > The JEDEC spec for Enterprise grade SSDs is 90 days, unpowered at 30C > > at end of life. > > That's curious. Then again, end of life for enterprise SSDs is many > thousands of write passes over the full disk (or the same amount of writes > to smaller address ranges thanks to remapping). Under high but not insane > loads that takes 5-7 years. So presumably the retention while fairly new > (not very worn) is much better. Still it's surprising to see a number that > small. > > > As far as I've seen, all SATA and NVME drive vendors adhere to these > > specs as a minimum, but there's also a new class of drive for 'cold > storage' > > which has high retention, but low endurance and longer data read times... > > I don't know if the "cold storage" SSD stuff is going anywhere. But in any > case, it seems to aim at high density at the expense of low endurance. I > don't remember hearing retention discussed at all, higher or unchanged. > > Having drives with limited retention seems quite problematic. And > "unpowered" suggests that leaving the power on would help -- but I don't see > why that would be so. > > As for writable DVDs and such, do they have any useful retention specs? > > paul > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 5 16:11:02 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 17:11:02 -0500 Subject: Large discs In-Reply-To: <20180105220712.GA47961@night.db.net> References: <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> <007501d38627$3c2bb420$b4831c60$@tin.it> <00c101d38668$68383070$38a89150$@tin.it> <20180105220712.GA47961@night.db.net> Message-ID: > On Jan 5, 2018, at 5:07 PM, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 05, 2018 at 09:33:47PM +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> Do they also guarantee there will be a device capable of reading it >> in 1000 years? > > It was bad enough with the BBC Domesday project. > > Paper. Paper is the only way. > acid free paper. Paper isn't all that reliable. The Long Now foundation is one outfit that has worked on this issue. Check out their "Rosetta Disk". paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 5 16:14:20 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 14:14:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: R: Large discs In-Reply-To: <00c101d38668$68383070$38a89150$@tin.it> References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> <007501d38627$3c2bb420$b4831c60$@tin.it> <00c101d38668$68383070$38a89150$@tin.it> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk wrote: > The M kind of dvd supports guarantee over 1000 years of retention, and > resistance to acid/alien invasion/etc let's start with: "How old is the oldest surviving M-disc?" "Is there a form of machine readable data older than 150 years?" "Have they completely figured out Stonehenge?" [Don't you hate rhetorical questions?] They can postulate theoretical life. They can bake them, freeze them, hold them up in a tornado, use them as Starbucks coasters, etc., and then measure how much wear, damage, and aging they detect, and extrapolate from there. Have they successfully figured out what factors will shorten the life? Are there any factors that they missed? (such as a previously unnoticed air pollutant that suddenly becomes common (Sontaran Atmos?) that destroys the binder layer, or an imaginary wireless signal that corrupts all m-discs within range?) Every new development since, and including, CD has been hyped as unbelievably long lasting, such as "50 years!". Then, over time, they find out more about the risk factors, and the retention time gets shortened. Some of those "many decades" things ended up going bad in a few years. If you buy M-Disc, and it doesn't last 1000 years, . . . 1) Will Verbatim be around to honor a warranty? 2) Is that a full replacement warranty, or is it "pro-rated"? 3) How do you store a drive to last that long? 4) Is any of OUR data worth keeping long-term? Actual data about data retention time certainly exists. But, I couldn't trivially Google it. [Yes, "Google" as a verb resulted in a case claiming that once it becomes a verb, that the trademark becomes invalid! http://blogs.findlaw.com/supreme_court/2017/08/scotus-to-consider-whether-google-trademark-is-generic.html https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/10/supreme-court-wont-nullify-google-trademark-in-genericide-challenge/ ] 'course you will get a firehose worth of anecdotal crap, such as "I bought some discs on eBay, and they went bad" and "They last FOREVER! The discs that I bought in high school 3 years ago are still good!" I was surprised that M-disc.com didn't put up links (other than a bar graph without a scale!) providing the retention data for comparison. Does that mean that it is BETTER than we thought? But, M-Disc DOES seem like the best long-term form. So, I will get an M-disc compatible BDXL, and a stack of media (100G M-Disc are EXPENSIVE!) That action on my part, will surely ensure the immediate development and release of cheaper, more compact, faster, longer lasting storage systems, such as $5 10,000 year 10GB/S PetaByte thumb-drives ("The LottaByte NSA Utah Data Center https://nsa.gov1.info/utah-data-center/ will fit in your pocket") (or my death, and my heirs will instantaneously dumpster everything that I have) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From andy.holt at tesco.net Fri Jan 5 16:24:21 2018 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 22:24:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: R: Large discs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1713868337.82645.1515191061200.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> >>>> "Is there a form of machine readable data older than 150 years?" <<<< Jacquard cards; Morse recorder; certain musical instrument programmes. Also with modern scanners virtually any printed material and some handwritten. Andy From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 5 16:37:45 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 14:37:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: R: Large discs In-Reply-To: <3a1e7f06-f0a8-cd7e-02cb-4e39093f8921@sydex.com> References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> <007501d38627$3c2bb420$b4831c60$@tin.it> <00c101d38668$68383070$38a89150$@tin.it> <3a1e7f06-f0a8-cd7e-02cb-4e39093f8921@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Here's a government-(Canada) sponsored paper on the subject: > https://www.canada.ca/en/conservation-institute/services/conservation-preservation-publications/canadian-conservation-institute-notes/longevity-recordable-cds-dvds.html > > In any case, my DVDs will last longer than I will. I was unsure how to derive that from the paper. It's a fascinating discussion of some of the issues, but I still haven't seen a chart that would give mean, median, nor mode (and/or any other measures of central tendency) of expected life the various products. Of late, I have seen some worrying numbers, such as "shelf life of unrecorded DVDs is 3 to 5 years". I don't know how long YOU expect to live, but I don't think that I will last as long as a lot of my data (which FEW if ANY will want) (But, I've asked my lawyer to place in my will, provisions for my collection of "alien" disks to go to Eric Smith and Al Kossow. As well as authorizations for certain people to take whatever they want of my personal property) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 16:45:21 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 22:45:21 -0000 Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> References: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <002601d38676$de9cfe90$9bd6fbb0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy > Sotomayor via cctalk > Sent: 05 January 2018 19:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging > > Hi, > > I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would somehow > like to image them so: > a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad > b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the > contents of multiple floppies to > make a single good one > > These are all 8? diskettes. > > The complicating factors in all of this are: > a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII > b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for > c) not sure what the ?on-disk? structure looks like > d) the only 8? diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment > > Any ideas/comments would be welcome. > IBM invented the 8" floppy disk format. Generally their disks follow the standard 3740 format. I would try that first. https://ub.fnwi.uva.nl/computermuseum/diskettes.html > Thanks. > > TTFN - Guy Dave From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 5 17:10:17 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 15:10:17 -0800 Subject: R: Large discs In-Reply-To: References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> <007501d38627$3c2bb420$b4831c60$@tin.it> <00c101d38668$68383070$38a89150$@tin.it> <3a1e7f06-f0a8-cd7e-02cb-4e39093f8921@sydex.com> Message-ID: <67d0d4d3-6a1b-9733-070a-30d31c33b421@sydex.com> On 01/05/2018 02:37 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I don't know how long YOU expect to live, but I don't think that I will > last as long as a lot of my data (which FEW if ANY will want)?? (But, > I've asked my lawyer to place in my will, provisions for my collection > of "alien" disks to go to Eric Smith and Al Kossow.? As well as > authorizations for certain people to take whatever they want of my > personal property) I suppose that I should at least catalog my "alien" media--there's a lot of it. One of these days. It's hard enough to keep the stuff roughly alphabetized. At any rate, the latest study I can find on the longevity of optical media is this 2005 NIST paper: https://www.nist.gov/publications/nistlibrary-congress-loc-optical-media-longevity-study --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 5 17:13:15 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 15:13:15 -0800 Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <002601d38676$de9cfe90$9bd6fbb0$@gmail.com> References: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> <002601d38676$de9cfe90$9bd6fbb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <78690ca0-115c-77f6-2cae-67509665fdad@sydex.com> On 01/05/2018 02:45 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > IBM invented the 8" floppy disk format. Generally their disks follow the standard 3740 format. I would try that first. > > https://ub.fnwi.uva.nl/computermuseum/diskettes.html > I've got a pretty good pile of IBM 8" disks,from System/3 to Displaywriter. If you've got a PC hooked to a standard drive that can handle FM recording, you're good with IMD and a few other packages. If you've got any of the 8" "magazines", they open easily and the disks are straightforward 8" floppies. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Jan 5 20:49:30 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2018 20:49:30 -0600 Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> References: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5A50393A.7030302@pico-systems.com> On 01/05/2018 01:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would somehow like to image them so: > a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad > b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the contents of multiple floppies to > make a single good one > > Any possibility the 4331 can write to a floppy? I know next to nothing of this hardware. But, I know the VAX 11/780 really well. You could make copies of its console floppy on that drive, once the OS was up. Jon From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Jan 5 22:16:52 2018 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 23:16:52 -0500 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AF18@mail.bensene.com> References: <160c2e1f90c-1726-3f3e6@webjas-vad172.srv.aolmail.net> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AF18@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <20180105231632.659d8f0b@crucible> On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 11:18:53 -0800 Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: Of course, update your OS as soon as updates are available, > as patches (which will likely slow your system down) are forthcoming > from Microsoft and various Linux trees. > You want to test those updates before you apply them to remote production VM's. The latest CentOS 6.9 kernel update (2.6.32-696.18.7.el6 64-bit, which addresses meltdown) is broken on at least some Xen PV platforms and fails to boot. See https://bugs.centos.org/view.php?id=14336. You can't even get into grub from a remote console to select a working kernel. Well, you could set "default x", in /etc/grub.conf, where x = working kernel, before you update. Hindsight being 20/20. jbdigriz From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Sat Jan 6 00:06:47 2018 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon - The Computer Doc) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 01:06:47 -0500 Subject: OT - Starting IT Training Message-ID: <016301d386b4$8b05e150$a111a3f0$@sc.rr.com> Hi My Friends, Just a quick message to let everybody know that I am starting IT Training Monday, January 8, 2018 to get the certifications I need. When finished I plan to have my A+, N+ and S+ certifications. For those unfamiliar with these certifications, this is paper work proving I have the knowledge to perform the tasks of a Computer, Network and Server Technician in that order. These enable me to get the great jobs in IT that I am looking for. That is my plan. Please keep me in your prayers. This will be a lot of work, reading, labs etcetera. In December 2018, I ought to be getting a great Christmas present! :D I will be checking my email when I can. Take care my friends. From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Sat Jan 6 00:06:47 2018 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon - The Computer Doc) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 01:06:47 -0500 Subject: OT - Starting IT Training Message-ID: <016301d386b4$8b05e150$a111a3f0$@sc.rr.com> Hi My Friends, Just a quick message to let everybody know that I am starting IT Training Monday, January 8, 2018 to get the certifications I need. When finished I plan to have my A+, N+ and S+ certifications. For those unfamiliar with these certifications, this is paper work proving I have the knowledge to perform the tasks of a Computer, Network and Server Technician in that order. These enable me to get the great jobs in IT that I am looking for. That is my plan. Please keep me in your prayers. This will be a lot of work, reading, labs etcetera. In December 2018, I ought to be getting a great Christmas present! :D I will be checking my email when I can. Take care my friends. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 00:10:47 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 00:10:47 -0600 Subject: OT - Starting IT Training In-Reply-To: <016301d386b4$8b05e150$a111a3f0$@sc.rr.com> References: <016301d386b4$8b05e150$a111a3f0$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: dude go after ur cicsco way better pay On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 12:06 AM, Kip Koon - The Computer Doc via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi My Friends, > > Just a quick message to let everybody know that I am starting IT Training > Monday, January 8, 2018 to get the certifications I need. When finished I > plan to have my A+, N+ and S+ certifications. For those unfamiliar with > these certifications, this is paper work proving I have the knowledge to > perform the tasks of a Computer, Network and Server Technician in that > order. These enable me to get the great jobs in IT that I am looking for. > That is my plan. Please keep me in your prayers. This will be a lot of > work, reading, labs etcetera. In December 2018, I ought to be getting a > great Christmas present! :D > > I will be checking my email when I can. Take care my friends. > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 04:42:49 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 10:42:49 -0000 Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <5A50393A.7030302@pico-systems.com> References: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> <5A50393A.7030302@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <00a301d386db$1901bb20$4b053160$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson > via cctalk > Sent: 06 January 2018 02:50 > To: Guy Sotomayor ; General at ezwind.net; > Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: non-PC Floppy imaging > > On 01/05/2018 01:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would > somehow like to image them so: > > a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad > > b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the > contents of multiple floppies to > > make a single good one > > > > > Any possibility the 4331 can write to a floppy? I know next to nothing of this > hardware. But, I know the VAX 11/780 really well. You could make copies of > its console floppy on that drive, once the OS was up. > Yes it can, it writes error log data to the floppy. It?s a pity most of the operating guides to the 43xx boxes are lost which would be usefull as they will have instructions on how to back up the diskettes, > Jon Dave From steven at malikoff.com Sat Jan 6 06:04:40 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 22:04:40 +1000 Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Using the measurements provided by Vince I've rejigged the drawing a bit and it ought to be closer. I hope this shows what was meant by the angled corner part, seems logical to have it like that. The radii 'too small to measure' without a gauge was entered as 1/16" and it looks acceptable. Basic layout, no measurements just a cm/inch scale: http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/DEC_H960_stabiliser_foot_left_A-H952-BA_revision_2.jpg Measurements (my CAD program converts everything to metric, when I entered in Vince's measurements): http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/DEC_H960_stabiliser_foot_left_A-H952-BA_revision_2_dimensioned.jpg How it might look, so far, attached to the H960 (no kickplate): http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/DEC_H960_stabiliser_foot_left_A-H952-BA_revision_2_placed.jpg I had thought the hole in the front corner of the H960 was for a front panel pivot, but it seems the foot does actually use it. I don't have the kickplate nor access to measuring one, so that probably changes it a bit too. Steve. From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 08:10:24 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 09:10:24 -0500 Subject: OT - Starting IT Training In-Reply-To: References: <016301d386b4$8b05e150$a111a3f0$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: CCNA is indeed a worthwhile program, not only for the piece of paper. Good luck! Thanks, Jonathan On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 1:10 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > dude go after ur cicsco way better pay > > On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 12:06 AM, Kip Koon - The Computer Doc via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Hi My Friends, > > > > Just a quick message to let everybody know that I am starting IT Training > > Monday, January 8, 2018 to get the certifications I need. When finished > I > > plan to have my A+, N+ and S+ certifications. For those unfamiliar with > > these certifications, this is paper work proving I have the knowledge to > > perform the tasks of a Computer, Network and Server Technician in that > > order. These enable me to get the great jobs in IT that I am looking > for. > > That is my plan. Please keep me in your prayers. This will be a lot of > > work, reading, labs etcetera. In December 2018, I ought to be getting a > > great Christmas present! :D > > > > I will be checking my email when I can. Take care my friends. > > > > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 6 09:45:40 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 15:45:40 +0000 Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3bbc4953-2c82-83ec-bb43-722cad513cad@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/01/2018 12:04, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Using the measurements provided by Vince I've rejigged the drawing a bit and it ought to be closer. Looks good to me except... > I had thought the hole in the front corner of the H960 was for a front panel pivot, but it seems the foot > does actually use it. Yes, that's essential! But unlike in your drawing, the large screw that holds the stabiliser foot into that hole is a large-head countersunk screw, not a pan-head screw, and only the very bottom part of it is threaded, 8-32 IIRC. The main part is a plain shank to fit the holes for the front panel pivot and also the holes in the stabiliser; only the part protruding below the stabiliser is threaded. It's fitted with a shakeproof ("star") washer along with the nut, under the stabiliser. I took all the stabilisers off my racks because they're superfluous in my setup, and I can't remember where I put them, so I can't double-check. > I don't have the kickplate nor access to measuring one, so that probably changes it a bit too. That I do have, so I took it off one of the racks and you'll find some (poor quality, from a phone that doesn't do close focus very well) pictures at http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_0999.JPG http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1000.JPG http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1001.JPG http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1002.JPG http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1003.JPG and a hastily drawn sketch of the dimensions at http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/kickplate.pdf (NB This is a sketch, not a technical drawing, and is only approximately to scale). -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 6 10:11:39 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 16:11:39 +0000 Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. In-Reply-To: <3bbc4953-2c82-83ec-bb43-722cad513cad@dunnington.plus.com> References: <3bbc4953-2c82-83ec-bb43-722cad513cad@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <3e07e86c-d0c3-ec64-8bc9-d2f89b8d0905@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/01/2018 15:45, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 06/01/2018 12:04, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> Using the measurements provided by Vince I've rejigged the drawing a >> bit and it ought to be closer. > > Looks good to me except... > >> I had thought the hole in the front corner of the H960 was for a front >> panel pivot, but it seems the foot does actually use it. > > Yes, that's essential!? But unlike in your drawing, the large screw that > holds the stabiliser foot into that hole is a large-head countersunk > screw, not a pan-head screw, and only the very bottom part of it is > threaded, 8-32 IIRC. Correction - it's 10-32. I found one of the screws, photo at http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1006.JPG The head diameter is 15.9mm (5/8") It's a 45 degree countersink with a flattened underside The shank diameter is 7.9mm (5/16") and 49mm long The threaded portion is 15mm long x 10-32 The overall length is 66.7mm (2-5/8") -- Pete Pete Turnbull From als at thangorodrim.ch Sat Jan 6 10:30:22 2018 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 17:30:22 +0100 Subject: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <160c2fc2374-1724-332d8@webjas-vab054.srv.aolmail.net> <704e683a-9608-336c-bc42-30697cf9d6a5@sydex.com> <0A975110E53041999B52833DFF238D7D@TeoPC> Message-ID: <20180106163022.GA25465@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Jan 04, 2018 at 06:38:10PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jan 2018, TeoZ wrote: > >Hard drives NEVER keep up. Bragging about how many DVD's (90's technology) > >you can store on current HD means little to people who have ultra HD > >Blueray videos that take up to 100GB of space. Heck even a single game > >download can be 50GB these days. > > I'd be interested in hearing about opinions of the 100GB "M-disc". I've > heard that they have decent longevity, and, the "low" capacity ones are > interchangeable with conventional DVDs. I've recently turned to using 25 & 100 GB M-disc BD discs for archival storage (mostly my digital camera image archive, so data that doesn't change). One downside of the 100 GB ones: they forever to write (with the defaults on growisofs, IIRC ~3h or so). > I can still put 20 100GB DVDs (2017 technology) on a 2TB 2.5" Thin SATA. > However, I'm also looking for multi-terabyte storage. > Are higher capacity DVDs on their way? > Howzbout multi-TearByte SSDs? I wouldn't trust SSDs (or any flash based storage) for archival purposes, those are strictly for online storage. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jan 6 12:16:46 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 10:16:46 -0800 Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <00a301d386db$1901bb20$4b053160$@gmail.com> References: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> <5A50393A.7030302@pico-systems.com> <00a301d386db$1901bb20$4b053160$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1D139840-79E1-4850-B293-6C8BE37FF76A@shiresoft.com> > On Jan 6, 2018, at 2:42 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson >> via cctalk >> Sent: 06 January 2018 02:50 >> To: Guy Sotomayor ; General at ezwind.net; >> Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: non-PC Floppy imaging >> >> On 01/05/2018 01:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would >> somehow like to image them so: >>> a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad >>> b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to ?merge? the >> contents of multiple floppies to >>> make a single good one >>> >>> >> Any possibility the 4331 can write to a floppy? I know next to nothing of this >> hardware. But, I know the VAX 11/780 really well. You could make copies of >> its console floppy on that drive, once the OS was up. >> > > Yes it can, it writes error log data to the floppy. It?s a pity most of the operating guides to the 43xx boxes are lost which would be usefull as they will have instructions on how to back up the diskettes, I was reading that last night (as well as the CE being able to ?patch? the uCode and save it on the floppy). I have an entire FE cart (both sides) full of manuals for various parts of my 4331 (and peripherals). I haven?t looked through all of them (including various other manuals in a several foot long holder) to see if there?s an operating guide in there or not. TTFN - Guy From shadoooo at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 04:51:44 2018 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 11:51:44 +0100 Subject: DEC tape drives and cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I have some doubt about DEC tape units and related interfaces. What I know about (right or wrong, please correct): - TU80 is a Pertec drive, it needs M7454 (unibus, TS11 driver) which is a modified Dilog DU132. No option for QBUS. - TS05 is a Pertec drive, it needs TSV05 (qbus, TSV05 driver) which is a modified Emulex ???) - TU81 plus is LESI or Pertec, you need KLESI (unibus / qbus, TMSCP driver). Now the questions: I have both a TU80 and TU81plus, and both Unibus and Qbus machines, but no interfaces. I would like to connect at least TU80 to unibus, and TU81 to qbus, but for backup reasons it would be better to have both drives on both busses. What are the DEC or third party card which would fit better on my drives, and/or which would offer better driver compatibility with various OSs (via switchable configuration). I'm not sure about interface compatibility (Pertec interfaces could be swapped), and driver compatibility (what is better for RT11, what for BSD, what for VMS). I would accept also some offer to my email, if somebody has something interesting to sell (better if in EU). Thanks Andrea From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sat Jan 6 09:17:06 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2018 16:17:06 +0100 Subject: Need keyboard for IBM 528x Message-ID: The subject line says it all? I have just been given an IBM 5285 Distributed Data System, together with a 5222 printer. It appears to work (it came with an 8? disk that contains some user application, and the system can IPL off that disk, and brings up a prompt requesting the current date and time), but I have no keyboard with it. This brochure (http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/528x/G580-0274-00_5280 _Distributed_Data_System_Brochure.pdf) has a picture of the system and its keyboard on the front page. If anyone has one of these keyboards, please let me know! Kind regards, Camiel Vanderhoeven From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 6 10:53:28 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2018 10:53:28 -0600 Subject: DEC tape drives and cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A50FF08.3000409@pico-systems.com> On 01/06/2018 04:51 AM, shadoooo via cctech wrote: > Hello, > I have some doubt about DEC tape units and related interfaces. > > What I know about (right or wrong, please correct): > - TU80 is a Pertec drive, it needs M7454 (unibus, TS11 driver) which is a > modified Dilog DU132. No option for QBUS. Well, not from DEC. I did have a Pertec T9000 (same as TU45) on my uVAX system, using an MDB MLSI-TM11 controller. It emulated the DEC TM11, which was never available in a Q-bus version. However, even with my limited VMS driver skills, I was pretty easily able to get the TM11 driver converted to work on Q-bus. I also figured out how to set up a system so the non-volatile config memory could be accessed via the uVAX console monitor. I do have source and .exe of that driver, but it is for a VMS 4.7 system. Jon From seefriek at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 14:30:44 2018 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 15:30:44 -0500 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown Message-ID: From: Murray McCullough > >This may be off-topic but these latest uprocessor exploits has raised >a question: Are the 'old/classic' uprocessors using x86 technology in >the same boat? > The exploit effects the speculative execution facility, so no it's not "all P6 forward": nothing 32-bit or PAE, nothing just OOO, etc. The current word I have (from my risk management folks, who got it from Intel) is the oldest chips verified to be affected are the Xeon 3400 (server) and 2nd Gen Core (desktop) processors. So, probably nothing later than 2009 or so. KJ From mtnbike2 at aol.com Sat Jan 6 13:45:50 2018 From: mtnbike2 at aol.com (Dan Smith) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 14:45:50 -0500 Subject: Info on Grid Systems 2260 Convertible Laptop/Tablet Message-ID: <001601d38726$f52b9ee0$df82dca0$@aol.com> Hey Alex, I was trolling the internet and came across you post from 2015!! I have a GRiD 2260 in like new condition with all the attachments, software and carrying case. Are you interested? Thanks, Dan Smith dansmithmaryland at aol.com 410-841-4827 From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 14:50:43 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 21:50:43 +0100 Subject: Spare parts for VT1xx available. Message-ID: I was given three VT100 and one VT131 in not great condition. The biggest problem is that the keyboards are missing approximately 25% of the keys in average. For example all SETUP keys and NO SCROLL keys are missing. God know why. It makes little point for me try to find keytops for these four keyboards. Besides they are not actually matching the terminals except for one of them. Apparently the VT131 keyboard is slightly different from the VT100. Then two of the VT100 has a different first ROM chip and also an extra char gen chip (23-108E2 and 23-198E2). Seems to be some kind of European/ Swedish/Scandinavian chargen and keyboard layout. The keyboards I received has US layout. I checked two PSUs, one monitor board, and one basic video (logic board) which seem to work OK. One keyboard tested and is working electrically. The cases are from OK to in quite ugly shape and the CRTs are from minimal screen burn to quite some screen burn (due to long time with inverse video). Is there interest in a full terminal? Parts? Keytops? I will probably keep one or two flyback transformers to keep the ones I have going. I am in Sweden. /Mattis From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 6 14:52:31 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 12:52:31 -0800 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/06/2018 12:30 PM, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > The exploit effects the speculative execution facility, so no it's not > "all P6 forward": nothing 32-bit or PAE, nothing just OOO, etc. The > current word I have (from my risk management folks, who got it from > Intel) is the oldest chips verified to be affected are the Xeon 3400 > (server) and 2nd Gen Core (desktop) processors. So, probably nothing > later than 2009 or so. Ken, I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean nothing earlier than 2009 or so is affected? --Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Jan 6 17:01:55 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 16:01:55 -0700 Subject: To the 2901 bit slicers out there In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2017-12-27 21:35, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > What have you done, with microprogramming this part? In your architecture, have you changed the microcode, create an instruction to enhance your machine? > I would be interested in any hardware projects, stories (or even in the FPGA, I hear its a popular thing to copy); I hope you saw this one. Fresh on opencores: https://opencores.org/project,am9080_cpu_based_on_microcoded_am29xx_bit-slices cheers From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 6 18:54:47 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 00:54:47 +0000 Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. In-Reply-To: <3e07e86c-d0c3-ec64-8bc9-d2f89b8d0905@dunnington.plus.com> References: <3bbc4953-2c82-83ec-bb43-722cad513cad@dunnington.plus.com> <3e07e86c-d0c3-ec64-8bc9-d2f89b8d0905@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <7459a593-2453-93ee-08b4-a10ed45de8ec@dunnington.plus.com> Sigh. Third time lucky. On 06/01/2018 16:11, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > Correction - it's 10-32.?? I found one of the screws, photo at > http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1006.JPG No, as would be obvious to anyone looking carefully at the photo (or the real thing!), it's 1/4" x 20 UNC. I really must learn to think before putting finger to keyboard. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 6 19:44:52 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 17:44:52 -0800 Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. In-Reply-To: <7459a593-2453-93ee-08b4-a10ed45de8ec@dunnington.plus.com> References: <3bbc4953-2c82-83ec-bb43-722cad513cad@dunnington.plus.com> <3e07e86c-d0c3-ec64-8bc9-d2f89b8d0905@dunnington.plus.com> <7459a593-2453-93ee-08b4-a10ed45de8ec@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <695853fe-0286-19ce-23b3-c3e6f0fcd3d4@sydex.com> On 01/06/2018 04:54 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > No, as would be obvious to anyone looking carefully at the photo (or the > real thing!), it's 1/4" x 20 UNC.? I really must learn to think before > putting finger to keyboard. If it's "quarter-twenty", that's a size shared by many refrigerators and other heavy household appliances. I think I even have a few of those mushroom-headed screws salvaged from one. A visit to an appliance dealer might be in order. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 6 20:07:39 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 02:07:39 +0000 Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. In-Reply-To: <695853fe-0286-19ce-23b3-c3e6f0fcd3d4@sydex.com> References: <3bbc4953-2c82-83ec-bb43-722cad513cad@dunnington.plus.com> <3e07e86c-d0c3-ec64-8bc9-d2f89b8d0905@dunnington.plus.com> <7459a593-2453-93ee-08b4-a10ed45de8ec@dunnington.plus.com> <695853fe-0286-19ce-23b3-c3e6f0fcd3d4@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 07/01/2018 01:44, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 01/06/2018 04:54 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > >> No, as would be obvious to anyone looking carefully at the photo (or the >> real thing!), it's 1/4" x 20 UNC.? I really must learn to think before >> putting finger to keyboard. > > If it's "quarter-twenty", that's a size shared by many refrigerators and > other heavy household appliances. I think I even have a few of those > mushroom-headed screws salvaged from one. Except the proper screws are countersink head, not mushroom, because mushroom heads would prevent the kickplate being fitted (and the shank is 5/16" - only the end is threaded 1/4-20). -- Pete Pete Turnbull From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 6 21:44:35 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 19:44:35 -0800 Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. In-Reply-To: References: <3bbc4953-2c82-83ec-bb43-722cad513cad@dunnington.plus.com> <3e07e86c-d0c3-ec64-8bc9-d2f89b8d0905@dunnington.plus.com> <7459a593-2453-93ee-08b4-a10ed45de8ec@dunnington.plus.com> <695853fe-0286-19ce-23b3-c3e6f0fcd3d4@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1116fd0a-16a3-61ba-eb4e-4441248e3fd8@sydex.com> On 01/06/2018 06:07 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 07/01/2018 01:44, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 01/06/2018 04:54 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >> >>> No, as would be obvious to anyone looking carefully at the photo (or the >>> real thing!), it's 1/4" x 20 UNC.? I really must learn to think before >>> putting finger to keyboard. >> >> If it's "quarter-twenty", that's a size shared by many refrigerators and >> other heavy household appliances.? I think I even have a few of those >> mushroom-headed screws salvaged from one. > > Except the proper screws are countersink head, not mushroom, because > mushroom heads would prevent the kickplate being fitted (and the shank > is 5/16" - only the end is threaded 1/4-20). Ah, okay--I'm used to HP racks, which are a bit more traditional. Well, there's always the ol' lathe... --Chuck From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Jan 6 23:54:13 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 05:54:13 +0000 Subject: Tek 40xx computer users In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Gary, Well its been a year. Some news from here: Micheal Cranford finished his MAXIPACK and FASTGRAPHICS PACK, and the results are awesome. 50-100% increase in the graphics speed, and he put all the demos and games on the MAXIPACK. I 3D printed the plastic case for the PACKs and they look good. I would like to see if we can work together, to clone the ROMs out of the packs you have, or see if you are willing to sell duplicates you have. I really need a communications PACK, my 4051 did not have the comm port. I have no way to transfer data in and out, I was going to attempt it over GPIB, bit I did not get very far. What is new from your end? I think we are trying to organize a 405x users group, I am talking with a few other guys. Cheers, Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Mike Haas Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 8:10 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Tek 40xx computer users Congrats on your new Tek. My 4051 pile came from came indirectly from Gary Spence, who had inhouse involvement with the model. (can't locate his bio at the moment) Here's what I got... somewhere: 4051, 2x 4907 Dual 8" floppys, and the "System Test Fixture" front panel, a box of DC300 tapes "GAS 6800" - a Homebrew 4051 (maybe a prototype 4051 ???) and these paks: RS232 I/O compak dual port memorypack UNIBURN EPROM burner pack VIDEOFRAME digitizer GPIB Enhancement rompack RS232 Printer Interface Parallel Interface Rompack Switch Data Communications Interface 8k Rom pack Addressable Data Tracking backpack IC Analyzer Editor Pack Filemanager Pack Binary Program Loader Pack Signal Processor Pack Service Pack Pack extender board a few empty packs and several wired edges On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 10:15 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > I bought the Tek 4051 on ebay today; Jason brought it to my house and it > works perfectly, with about a half hour of programming instruction my 12 > old daughter was plotting a cat face. > > > https://www.facebook.com/Thelma.Franco/videos/10154277153852670/ Log In or Sign Up to View www.facebook.com See posts, photos and more on Facebook. > > > I would like to get in touch with other users of this first personal > computer, and find additional resources. > > > Do you know where I can find an archive of BASIC programs for this? > > > Has anybody built plug in cards in the back, mine came with a realtime > clock and a "file manager", I do not know what that one does. > > > I have some Tek scopes with IEE-488, and I will see if I can get the IEEE > interface working. > > > There was a DC300 tape in the machine: > > > biorithm > > craps > > blackjack > > artillery > > tanks > > weatherwar > > > The belt is broken in the tape, I have ordered some new DC300's and will > transplant the tape. > > > Any resources will be welcome! > > > Randy > > > > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 7 00:01:01 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 06:01:01 +0000 Subject: Tek 40xx computer users In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: This was for Mike Hass, he was not in the email chain, and I do not have his address. But it' s a general shout out to the other Tek 40xx users out there... Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Randy Dawson via cctalk Sent: Saturday, January 6, 2018 9:54 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Tek 40xx computer users Hi Gary, Well its been a year. Some news from here: Micheal Cranford finished his MAXIPACK and FASTGRAPHICS PACK, and the results are awesome. 50-100% increase in the graphics speed, and he put all the demos and games on the MAXIPACK. I 3D printed the plastic case for the PACKs and they look good. I would like to see if we can work together, to clone the ROMs out of the packs you have, or see if you are willing to sell duplicates you have. I really need a communications PACK, my 4051 did not have the comm port. I have no way to transfer data in and out, I was going to attempt it over GPIB, bit I did not get very far. What is new from your end? I think we are trying to organize a 405x users group, I am talking with a few other guys. Cheers, Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Mike Haas Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 8:10 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Tek 40xx computer users Congrats on your new Tek. My 4051 pile came from came indirectly from Gary Spence, who had inhouse involvement with the model. (can't locate his bio at the moment) Here's what I got... somewhere: 4051, 2x 4907 Dual 8" floppys, and the "System Test Fixture" front panel, a box of DC300 tapes "GAS 6800" - a Homebrew 4051 (maybe a prototype 4051 ???) and these paks: RS232 I/O compak dual port memorypack UNIBURN EPROM burner pack VIDEOFRAME digitizer GPIB Enhancement rompack RS232 Printer Interface Parallel Interface Rompack Switch Data Communications Interface 8k Rom pack Addressable Data Tracking backpack IC Analyzer Editor Pack Filemanager Pack Binary Program Loader Pack Signal Processor Pack Service Pack Pack extender board a few empty packs and several wired edges On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 10:15 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > I bought the Tek 4051 on ebay today; Jason brought it to my house and it > works perfectly, with about a half hour of programming instruction my 12 > old daughter was plotting a cat face. > > > https://www.facebook.com/Thelma.Franco/videos/10154277153852670/ Log In or Sign Up to View www.facebook.com See posts, photos and more on Facebook. Log In or Sign Up to View Log In or Sign Up to View www.facebook.com See posts, photos and more on Facebook. www.facebook.com [https://www.facebook.com/images/fb_icon_325x325.png] Facebook - Log In or Sign Up www.facebook.com Create an account or log into Facebook. Connect with friends, family and other people you know. Share photos and videos, send messages and get updates. See posts, photos and more on Facebook. > > > I would like to get in touch with other users of this first personal > computer, and find additional resources. > > > Do you know where I can find an archive of BASIC programs for this? > > > Has anybody built plug in cards in the back, mine came with a realtime > clock and a "file manager", I do not know what that one does. > > > I have some Tek scopes with IEE-488, and I will see if I can get the IEEE > interface working. > > > There was a DC300 tape in the machine: > > > biorithm > > craps > > blackjack > > artillery > > tanks > > weatherwar > > > The belt is broken in the tape, I have ordered some new DC300's and will > transplant the tape. > > > Any resources will be welcome! > > > Randy > > > > > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sun Jan 7 01:49:34 2018 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2018 23:49:34 -0800 Subject: Tek 40xx computer users Message-ID: <6fbqr2ljphngka5664jwstn0.1515311374392@email.android.com> I regret we haven't been able to resusciate my 4051 yet.? Still kills power to the main board. I didn't know there were games for the 40xx machines.? I didn't think they could with the limitations of the screen design, although I kinda thought the display would work well for, say, an adventure game. B Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Randy Dawson via cctalk Date: 2018-01-06 10:01 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Randy Dawson , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Tek 40xx computer users This was for Mike Hass, he was not in the email chain, and I do not have his address. But it' s a general shout out to the other Tek 40xx users out there... Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Randy Dawson via cctalk Sent: Saturday, January 6, 2018 9:54 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Tek 40xx computer users Hi Gary, Well its been a year. Some news from here: Micheal Cranford finished his MAXIPACK and FASTGRAPHICS PACK, and the results are awesome. 50-100% increase in the graphics speed, and he put all the demos and games on the MAXIPACK. I 3D printed the plastic case for the PACKs and they look good. I would like to see if we can work together, to clone the ROMs out of the packs you have, or see if you are willing to sell duplicates you have. I really need a communications PACK, my 4051 did not have the comm port.? I have no way to transfer data in and out, I was going to attempt it over GPIB, bit I did not get very far. What is new from your end? I think we are trying to organize a 405x users group, I am talking with a few other guys. Cheers, Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Mike Haas Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 8:10 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Tek 40xx computer users Congrats on your new Tek.??? My 4051 pile came from came indirectly from Gary Spence, who had inhouse involvement with the model. (can't locate his bio at the moment)? Here's what I got... somewhere: 4051, 2x 4907 Dual 8" floppys, and the "System Test Fixture" front panel, a box of DC300 tapes "GAS 6800"? - a Homebrew 4051? (maybe a prototype?? 4051? ???) and? these paks: RS232 I/O compak dual port memorypack UNIBURN EPROM burner pack VIDEOFRAME digitizer GPIB Enhancement rompack RS232 Printer Interface Parallel Interface Rompack Switch Data Communications Interface 8k Rom pack Addressable Data Tracking backpack IC Analyzer Editor Pack Filemanager Pack Binary Program Loader Pack Signal Processor Pack Service Pack Pack extender board a few empty packs and several wired edges On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 10:15 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > I bought the Tek 4051 on ebay today; Jason brought it to my house and it > works perfectly, with about a half hour of programming instruction my 12 > old daughter was plotting a cat face. > > > https://www.facebook.com/Thelma.Franco/videos/10154277153852670/ Log In or Sign Up to View www.facebook.com See posts, photos and more on Facebook. Log In or Sign Up to View Log In or Sign Up to View www.facebook.com See posts, photos and more on Facebook. www.facebook.com [https://www.facebook.com/images/fb_icon_325x325.png] Facebook - Log In or Sign Up www.facebook.com Create an account or log into Facebook. Connect with friends, family and other people you know. Share photos and videos, send messages and get updates. See posts, photos and more on Facebook. > > > I would like to get in touch with other users of this first personal > computer, and find additional resources. > > > Do you know where I can find an archive of BASIC programs for this? > > > Has anybody built plug in cards in the back, mine came with a realtime > clock and a "file manager", I do not know what that one does. > > > I have some Tek scopes with IEE-488, and I will see if I can get the IEEE > interface working. > > > There was a DC300 tape in the machine: > > > biorithm > > craps > > blackjack > > artillery > > tanks > > weatherwar > > > The belt is broken in the tape, I have ordered some new DC300's and will > transplant the tape. > > > Any resources will be welcome! > > > Randy > > > > > From steven at malikoff.com Sun Jan 7 01:57:06 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 17:57:06 +1000 Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. In-Reply-To: References: <3bbc4953-2c82-83ec-bb43-722cad513cad@dunnington.plus.com> <3e07e86c-d0c3-ec64-8bc9-d2f89b8d0905@dunnington.plus.com> <7459a593-2453-93ee-08b4-a10ed45de8ec@dunnington.plus.com> <695853fe-0286-19ce-23b3-c3e6f0fcd3d4@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4278a96bb301194d97f99415edad6913.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Pete said > On 07/01/2018 01:44, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 01/06/2018 04:54 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >> >>> No, as would be obvious to anyone looking carefully at the photo (or the >>> real thing!), it's 1/4" x 20 UNC.? I really must learn to think before >>> putting finger to keyboard. >> >> If it's "quarter-twenty", that's a size shared by many refrigerators and >> other heavy household appliances. I think I even have a few of those >> mushroom-headed screws salvaged from one. > > Except the proper screws are countersink head, not mushroom, because > mushroom heads would prevent the kickplate being fitted (and the shank > is 5/16" - only the end is threaded 1/4-20). Thanks Pete and everyone, really fantastic input. Using the new bolt info, it's refined a little more: http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/DEC_H960_stabiliser_foot_left_A-H952-BA_revision_3_dimensioned.jpg I can't find anything suitable on MMC (https://www.mcmaster.com/#countersunk-head-machine-screws/=1b0p4yz ) so Chuck's probably right, machine them up. Maybe start from a long 5/16" shank hex-head bolt and put the countersink and 1/4-20 thread on. Thanks for the drawing for the kickplate. I'm assuming the plate goes on after the feet have been placed on the rack, and the #10 screws hold it all together. I'm guessing the kickplate is 16 guage sheetmetal..? Steve. From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Sun Jan 7 02:35:49 2018 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 09:35:49 +0100 Subject: Tek 40xx computer users In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48c2dfe2-4492-b8e7-4727-517c8a7b5594@bluewin.ch> On 07.01.2018 07:01, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > This was for Mike Hass, he was not in the email chain, and I do not have his address. > > > But it' s a general shout out to the other Tek 40xx users out there... > > There are a number of us over and the vcfed forum, someone just brought his 4052 back to live after countless years. I myself restored my 4052 a couple of months ago, a second one needs powersupply checkout and has an as yet undetermined problem in the analog board. I am in the process of recreating the 4052/4054 diagnostic pack. Give a shout if you need one, less than 7 parties at the moment..... I'd therefore be interested in the source code for the 3D printed cartridge case. This will need updates to accomodate the LED and switches. I myself would be interested in obtaining, or recreating, a suitable long term storage option for the 4052, i.e. floppy or even SD card. Then again, TekBasic is really bloody awful, maybe we should spend time on brining somre proper software top the system..... Jos From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Sun Jan 7 02:36:40 2018 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 09:36:40 +0100 Subject: Tek 40xx computer users In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ffbcbd5-1225-d2e7-85bc-1a77ab95e773@greenmail.ch> On 07.01.2018 07:01, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > This was for Mike Hass, he was not in the email chain, and I do not have his address. > > > But it' s a general shout out to the other Tek 40xx users out there... > > There are a number of us over and the vcfed forum, someone just brought his 4052 back to live after countless years. I myself restored my 4052 a couple of months ago, a second one needs powersupply checkout and has an as yet undetermined problem in the analog board. I am in the process of recreating the 4052/4054 diagnostic pack. Give a shout if you need one, less than 7 parties at the moment..... I'd therefore be interested in the source code for the 3D printed cartridge case. This will need updates to accomodate the LED and switches. I myself would be interested in obtaining, or recreating, a suitable long term storage option for the 4052, i.e. floppy or even SD card. Then again, TekBasic is really bloody awful, maybe we should spend time on brining somre proper software top the system..... Jos From ed at groenenberg.net Sat Jan 6 15:15:19 2018 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 22:15:19 +0100 (CET) Subject: Spare parts for VT1xx available. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33127.10.10.10.2.1515273319.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Hello Mattis. I could use a PSU for the 131 if it is still available. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1KsHRwUR3b8QkxwMRYocrPeY5TBCw2nVMF On Sat, January 6, 2018 21:50, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > I was given three VT100 and one VT131 in not great condition. > > The biggest problem is that the keyboards are missing approximately 25% of > the keys in average. For example all SETUP keys and NO SCROLL keys are > missing. God know why. > > It makes little point for me try to find keytops for these four keyboards. > Besides they are not actually matching the terminals except for one of > them. Apparently the VT131 keyboard is slightly different from the VT100. > Then two of the VT100 has a different first ROM chip and also an extra > char > gen chip (23-108E2 and 23-198E2). Seems to be some kind of European/ > Swedish/Scandinavian chargen and keyboard layout. The keyboards I received > has US layout. > > I checked two PSUs, one monitor board, and one basic video (logic board) > which seem to work OK. One keyboard tested and is working electrically. > > The cases are from OK to in quite ugly shape and the CRTs are from minimal > screen burn to quite some screen burn (due to long time with inverse > video). > > Is there interest in a full terminal? Parts? Keytops? I will probably keep > one or two flyback transformers to keep the ones I have going. > > I am in Sweden. > > /Mattis > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jan 7 06:39:44 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:39:44 +0000 Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. In-Reply-To: <4278a96bb301194d97f99415edad6913.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <3bbc4953-2c82-83ec-bb43-722cad513cad@dunnington.plus.com> <3e07e86c-d0c3-ec64-8bc9-d2f89b8d0905@dunnington.plus.com> <7459a593-2453-93ee-08b4-a10ed45de8ec@dunnington.plus.com> <695853fe-0286-19ce-23b3-c3e6f0fcd3d4@sydex.com> <4278a96bb301194d97f99415edad6913.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On 07/01/2018 07:57, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > I can't find anything suitable on MMC > (https://www.mcmaster.com/#countersunk-head-machine-screws/=1b0p4yz > ) so Chuck's probably right, machine them up. Maybe start from a long > 5/16" shank hex-head bolt and put the countersink and 1/4-20 thread > on. That should work. > Thanks for the drawing for the kickplate. I'm assuming the plate goes > on after the feet have been placed on the rack, and the #10 screws > hold it all together. I'm guessing the kickplate is 16 guage > sheetmetal..? Near enough, my micrometer says between 1.65mm and 1.70mm, the variation probably being due to the paint. For our American listeners, that's 16SWG (not AWG!). -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 7 08:00:34 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 09:00:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. Message-ID: <20180107140034.7145018C076@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steven Malikoff > Using the new bolt info, it's refined a little more: I just took a quick glance at this, and noticed on major thing that's off: you're showing the bottom side of the stabilizer foot as at right angles to the vertical of the rack; it's not. See here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/StabilizerFoot.jpg in which I have attempted to place the ruler at a right angle to the vertical (as available in the plate where the two horizontal bolts go through). I _guess_ I could try and work out how to measure the amount of drop; maybe I can get one side of a T-square onto that vertical (on the front), get a horizontal from that, and start measuring... > I'm assuming the plate goes on after the feet have been placed on the > rack, and the #10 screws hold it all together. There are two different kinds of kickplates: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/Kickplate.jpg Both have to go on after the feet, since the bolts go through these, and then through the feet, into the rack. The newer (I think) 'diagonal' ones don't cover the top of the feet, so you can tighten the large vertical bolt after the two smaller horizontal bolts. The latter are sort of necessary; there's often some play in the stabilizer foot, even with the large vertical bolt tightened. (BTW: here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/ExtensionFootBolt.jpg is an image of one of those, which I posted a while back.) > I'm guessing the kickplate is 16 guage sheetmetal..? My vernier caliper says 1.66mm (including paint, of course); whatever that turns into. Both types are the same. Noel From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 7 10:19:06 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 16:19:06 +0000 Subject: Tek 40xx computer users In-Reply-To: <3ffbcbd5-1225-d2e7-85bc-1a77ab95e773@greenmail.ch> References: , <3ffbcbd5-1225-d2e7-85bc-1a77ab95e773@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: I think Bob Rosenbloom as a bunch of Tek stuff. He may not be watching the CCTALK right now but you might send him a note. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of jos via cctalk Sent: Sunday, January 7, 2018 12:36:40 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Tek 40xx computer users On 07.01.2018 07:01, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > This was for Mike Hass, he was not in the email chain, and I do not have his address. > > > But it' s a general shout out to the other Tek 40xx users out there... > > There are a number of us over and the vcfed forum, someone just brought his 4052 back to live after countless years. I myself restored my 4052 a couple of months ago, a second one needs powersupply checkout and has an as yet undetermined problem in the analog board. I am in the process of recreating the 4052/4054 diagnostic pack. Give a shout if you need one, less than 7 parties at the moment..... I'd therefore be interested in the source code for the 3D printed cartridge case. This will need updates to accomodate the LED and switches. I myself would be interested in obtaining, or recreating, a suitable long term storage option for the 4052, i.e. floppy or even SD card. Then again, TekBasic is really bloody awful, maybe we should spend time on brining somre proper software top the system..... Jos From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 7 11:37:17 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 09:37:17 -0800 Subject: 4051 communications PACK Message-ID: <07bdf3c8-1eb5-074a-c1fa-eb701a14a7c6@sbcglobal.net> Hi Randy. I'm sure I have an extra com pack. I'll check storage today. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From abs at absd.org Sun Jan 7 13:35:31 2018 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 19:35:31 +0000 Subject: Vaxstation 4000 m60 and NetBSD In-Reply-To: References: <3c6cacd2-33f3-2431-d0c9-b71139234de1@familie-rauhut.eu> <878te1o9ty.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <0e024b5c-acd2-39ea-3de1-e5eaf1246f2f@familie-rauhut.eu> Message-ID: On 2 January 2018 at 21:02, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, 19 Dec 2017, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > > > > Hardware support say no support for LCG Graphics :-( > > > > There are a few people willing to work on graphics for old > > vaxstations, but there is no documentation. > > > > If anyone has documentation, the netbsd vax port mailing list would be > > very interested. > > The RAMDAC is standard, so as long as frame buffer memory is mapped into > the CDAL address space writing a dumb device driver should be pretty > straightforward with little reverse engineering effort. And CDAL address > decoding is I believe documented in the KA46 board specification. > > And all else failing you can always resort to TURBOchannel graphics wired > via a TURBOchannel adapter. While not supported by the console monitor, > it can be handled by the OS just fine, and several TURBOchannel graphics > drivers are already available for other ports, so it's just a matter of a > suitable kernel configuration (with minor patching possibly, depending on > how cleanly written the respective drivers are). > > I was able to get OS console output using at least the HX and one of the > HX+ options with my m90 and the (still very crippled and long neglected) > VAX/Linux port several years ago. The MX, CX and TX options should be > easily supportable too. Only accelerators (PixelStamp and PixelVision > architecture implementations) might cause trouble for one reason or > another (such as using DMA or requiring a TURBOchannel extender, which are > scarcer than hen's teeth). > I've been chatting to the NetBSD dev who wrote support for most of the sparc framebuffers (up to and including accelerated antialiased font console support where relevant), and if anyone has a spare VAXstation with a framebuffer they would be willing to part with (*) he would be very interested in writing driver support. (*) I'm happy to pay a reasonable amount to help find a beloved charge a caring new home involving active exercise with exciting new code :-p David From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 14:43:01 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 15:43:01 -0500 Subject: Vaxstation 4000 m60 and NetBSD In-Reply-To: References: <3c6cacd2-33f3-2431-d0c9-b71139234de1@familie-rauhut.eu> <878te1o9ty.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <0e024b5c-acd2-39ea-3de1-e5eaf1246f2f@familie-rauhut.eu> Message-ID: I may have a spare VS3100 with framebuffer, I don't remember if both of mine are MicroVAX or if one is a VAXstation. Thanks, Jonathan On Sun, Jan 7, 2018 at 2:35 PM, David Brownlee via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2 January 2018 at 21:02, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, 19 Dec 2017, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > Hardware support say no support for LCG Graphics :-( > > > > > > There are a few people willing to work on graphics for old > > > vaxstations, but there is no documentation. > > > > > > If anyone has documentation, the netbsd vax port mailing list would be > > > very interested. > > > > The RAMDAC is standard, so as long as frame buffer memory is mapped into > > the CDAL address space writing a dumb device driver should be pretty > > straightforward with little reverse engineering effort. And CDAL address > > decoding is I believe documented in the KA46 board specification. > > > > And all else failing you can always resort to TURBOchannel graphics > wired > > via a TURBOchannel adapter. While not supported by the console monitor, > > it can be handled by the OS just fine, and several TURBOchannel graphics > > drivers are already available for other ports, so it's just a matter of a > > suitable kernel configuration (with minor patching possibly, depending on > > how cleanly written the respective drivers are). > > > > I was able to get OS console output using at least the HX and one of the > > HX+ options with my m90 and the (still very crippled and long neglected) > > VAX/Linux port several years ago. The MX, CX and TX options should be > > easily supportable too. Only accelerators (PixelStamp and PixelVision > > architecture implementations) might cause trouble for one reason or > > another (such as using DMA or requiring a TURBOchannel extender, which > are > > scarcer than hen's teeth). > > > > I've been chatting to the NetBSD dev who wrote support for most of the > sparc framebuffers (up to and including accelerated antialiased font > console support where relevant), and if anyone has a spare VAXstation with > a framebuffer they would be willing to part with (*) he would be very > interested in writing driver support. > > (*) I'm happy to pay a reasonable amount to help find a beloved charge a > caring new home involving active exercise with exciting new code :-p > > David > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 16:22:57 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 17:22:57 -0500 Subject: Vaxstation 4000 m60 and NetBSD In-Reply-To: References: <3c6cacd2-33f3-2431-d0c9-b71139234de1@familie-rauhut.eu> <878te1o9ty.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <0e024b5c-acd2-39ea-3de1-e5eaf1246f2f@familie-rauhut.eu> Message-ID: > > > > > > > > > > > If anyone has documentation, the netbsd vax port mailing list would > be > > > > very interested. > > > > > > > I've been chatting to the NetBSD dev who wrote support for most of the > > sparc framebuffers (up to and including accelerated antialiased font > > console support where relevant), and if anyone has a spare VAXstation > with > > a framebuffer they would be willing to part with (*) he would be very > > interested in writing driver support. > > > > (*) I'm happy to pay a reasonable amount to help find a beloved charge a > > caring new home involving active exercise with exciting new code :-p > > > > David > > > On Sun, Jan 7, 2018 at 3:43 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I may have a spare VS3100 with framebuffer, I don't remember if both of > mine are MicroVAX or if one is a VAXstation. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > I have a spare 4000 m60 and would be happy to test the build of BSD. I could lend it out if that would make it easier, maybe sell or trade too. Feel free to contact me privately via vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm. Bill From cliff52 at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 11:06:38 2018 From: cliff52 at gmail.com (Cliff Miller) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:06:38 -0500 Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor? Message-ID: I see a thread with the above title started by *MartinHepperle *concerning the use of modern VGA flat panel displays with video from the 98204B composite video board in the HP 9817 computer. The problem is that the high horizontal scan rate of 25khz prevents modern panels from locking onto the video. Mr. Hepperle mentions the possible use of a scan converter available from that auction house, the Gonebes GBS-8200. I write to report the successful use of this device with an HP 2009m VGA-only flat panel monitor and the subject video board and computer. I input the video to the "Y" input of the YPbPr inputs of the device. I hope someone finds this useful. Photo of converter: http://bit.ly/2qEnHV0 Resulting video: http://bit.ly/2ACPLrM -- Cliff Miller cliff52 at gmail.com From cliff52 at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 11:51:38 2018 From: cliff52 at gmail.com (Cliff Miller) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:51:38 -0500 Subject: Preferred way of substituting TFT for CRT Monitor Message-ID: I see a thread with the above title started by *MartinHepperle *concerning the use of modern VGA flat panel displays with video from the 98204B composite video board in the HP 9817 computer. The problem is that the high horizontal scan rate of 25khz prevents modern panels from locking onto the video. Mr. Hepperle mentions the possible use of a scan converter available from that auction house, the Gonebes GBS-8200. I write to report the successful use of this device with an HP 2009m VGA-only flat panel monitor and the subject video board and computer. I input the video to the "Y" input of the YPbPr inputs of the device. I hope someone finds this useful. Photo of converter: http://bit.ly/2qEnHV0 Resulting video: http://bit.ly/2ACPLrM -- Cliff Miller cliff52 at gmail.com From steven at malikoff.com Sun Jan 7 17:07:42 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 09:07:42 +1000 Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. In-Reply-To: <20180107140034.7145018C076@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180107140034.7145018C076@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5ade371c210a47972155f9d3de498d61.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Noel said > I just took a quick glance at this, and noticed on major thing that's off: > you're showing the bottom side of the stabilizer foot as at right angles to > the vertical of the rack; it's not. See here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/StabilizerFoot.jpg > > in which I have attempted to place the ruler at a right angle to the vertical > (as available in the plate where the two horizontal bolts go through). Hmmm. Well that changes things a bit. That's the first actual photo I've seen of the foot, and I see what you mean. > I _guess_ I could try and work out how to measure the amount of drop; maybe I > can get one side of a T-square onto that vertical (on the front), get a > horizontal from that, and start measuring... When measuring it, don't just use the ruler on its own. Let's regard the inner vertical surface where it mates to the rack as the normal surface. If you have a length of something straight such as a piece of aluminium angle or steel bar, clamp it with a G-clamp or quick-release clamp to that inner surface and then use an engineers square or setsquare off that. The bar thickness can be easily subtracted later. A sharp pencil to make marks on the foot could help (if you're ok with that, they should rub off). A pencil rubbing on paper, or paper creasing slong eges then drawn over with a ruler can also help to get angled surfaces. I spent some hours at a military museum some years ago taking creasings and rubbings of the fittings on a vehicle there, the staff were very understanding :) Another thing, CAD can make good use of non-perpendicular measurements. So if you're able to measure something across a diagonal or at some odd angle, then please do so. It can be used to triangulate and improve other taken measurements, like a point cloud. > There are two different kinds of kickplates: > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/Kickplate.jpg > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/ExtensionFootBolt.jpg > My vernier caliper says 1.66mm (including paint, of course); whatever that > turns into. Both types are the same. Thanks for that, it all helps! Steve. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 7 19:41:37 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 01:41:37 +0000 Subject: 4051 communications PACK In-Reply-To: <07bdf3c8-1eb5-074a-c1fa-eb701a14a7c6@sbcglobal.net> References: <07bdf3c8-1eb5-074a-c1fa-eb701a14a7c6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Hi Bob, that would be great! BTW, I printed your PACK case, and it came out really great. The idea was to try and clone some other modules. Also use it to make more copies of FASTGRAPHICS and RAMPACK from Micheal Cranford. The cases are what holding that up. These really make the 4051 shine with demos, and its what they are using in the VintageTek museum on the Tektronix campus. Have you seen anywhere the schematic for the "toaster", an 8 module expansion box? Thanks, Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk Sent: Sunday, January 7, 2018 9:37 AM To: Randy Dawson via cctalk Subject: 4051 communications PACK Hi Randy. I'm sure I have an extra com pack. I'll check storage today. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com [http://banners.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/banner/ban/wxBanner?bannertype=pws250&weatherstationcount=KCASANTA382] dvq.com www.dvq.com Like Microcomputers? Apple 1's? Visit the Microcomputer Museum in Virginia. You can send mail to DVQ via: info (at) dvq (dot) com www.tekmuseum.com [http://tekmuseum.com/images/tek-museum001002.jpg] Home [tekmuseum.com] www.tekmuseum.com This website has been created with technology from Avanquest Software. www.decmuseum.org [http://decmuseum.org/image/obj123geo101pg1p11.jpg] DEC Computers www.decmuseum.org A collection of vintage Digital Equipment Computers. DEC Minicomputers in my collection. The collection starts with a "Straight 8", the basis for all later PDP-8 ... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 7 20:46:59 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 19:46:59 -0700 Subject: To the 2901 bit slicers out there In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/6/2018 4:01 PM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > On 2017-12-27 21:35, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > >> What have you done, with microprogramming this part?? In your >> architecture,? have you changed the microcode, create an instruction >> to enhance your machine? >> I would be interested in any hardware projects, stories (or even in >> the FPGA, I hear its a popular thing to copy); > > I hope you saw this one. Fresh on opencores: > > https://opencores.org/project,am9080_cpu_based_on_microcoded_am29xx_bit-slices > > > cheers > I don't expect many people will copy that. A FPGA 8080 runs darn fast as is. Ben. PS: I plan to have some sort of 20 or 24 cpu bit 2901 running in a DE1 FPGA this spring. 3 - 7 bit bytes (21/20 bit wide memory for the 20 bit CPU) or 3 - 8 bit bytes with a 24 bit cpu. Might need to order more Front panel switches how ever. From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 7 21:27:19 2018 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 03:27:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 9816 logging and skyline software -- any interest? References: <458773981.2246365.1515382039502.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <458773981.2246365.1515382039502@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Folks! I have documentation for some forestry software, that came with my HP9816 machines.? I am not sure, but I may have a tape or disk to go with it. It's called "MSAP", for Multispan Skyline Analysis Program, and appears to be a successor to the software documented in the following links: http://bit.ly/2EjAC0N http://bit.ly/2CFp2wk I have no use for it, but it seems like it may be of historical value.? Would anyone here be interested in it? dave From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Sun Jan 7 22:57:23 2018 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 04:57:23 +0000 Subject: AIX 4.1.3 on 7009-C20 RS/6000 Message-ID: Any RS/6000 hobbyists out there? I got my old 7009-C20 pretty tricked out and hardware carefully selected to be compatible with AIX 4.1.3, the version I'm trying to get running on it. Unfortunately, I can't get the dang thing to boot my 4.1.3 or 4.1.4 CD's. It'll boot my 4.1.5 disc, however. The 4.1.3 and 4.1.4 CD's are labeled "AIX for clients" or something like that, and I seem to recall having trouble getting other RS/6000's to boot from this 4.1.3 CD, even though it's genuine original media, and reads just fine in a working system. Anyone know a way to check what systems an old AIX 4.1 disc supports, or have C20 or similar MCA machine running 4.1.3? My other thought was to try to NIM boot it using my ThinkPad 860 as a NIM server (running 4.1.5), but it unfortunately doesn't have enough capacity to hold a lpp_source and a SPOT, and even then it looks like the 4.1.3 disc may not have enough stuff on it to support the C20 anyway... Anyway, thanks in advance! From cctalk at snarc.net Sun Jan 7 20:43:59 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 21:43:59 -0500 Subject: ADDS Envoy terminal question Message-ID: <7e0b048f-add0-cbc3-073a-6f6a43d937a8@snarc.net> Does anyone have an ADDS Envoy portable terminal, circa 1972-1976? If so, then please let me know if what if any are the U.S. patent numbers cited on it. Thanks, Evan From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Jan 7 23:59:25 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 21:59:25 -0800 Subject: ADDS Envoy terminal question In-Reply-To: <7e0b048f-add0-cbc3-073a-6f6a43d937a8@snarc.net> References: <7e0b048f-add0-cbc3-073a-6f6a43d937a8@snarc.net> Message-ID: <3fe11314-a8ca-bd1a-1e10-f72cef23d468@jwsss.com> On 1/7/2018 6:43 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have an ADDS Envoy portable terminal, circa 1972-1976? If > so, then please let me know if what if any are the U.S. patent numbers > cited on it. > > Thanks, > Evan Is this the portable 5" version?? I will look if that is what you're after. thanks Jim From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Jan 8 00:33:38 2018 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 22:33:38 -0800 Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> References: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20180107223338.1c9ce638@asrock.bcwi.net> Hi Guy, I just copied several IBM 8" Maintenance Device (MD) Diskettes - and verified that the copies work on the IBM MD. They seem to be in an IBM 3x0 format (with a standard IBM VTOC). Track 0 on the diskettes is 128 byte sectors, Tracks 1 through 76 are 256 byte sectors. The diskettes are DSSD. (So you need a Shugart 850/851 (or equivalent) to make the copies). I used both Teledisk and IMD - and both successfully captured and re-created the diskettes correctly. More in editing IBM images later... Cheers, Lyle On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 11:52:56 -0800 Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would > somehow like to image them so: a) I have backups in case the floppies > themselves go bad b) be able to investigate their contents in case I > have to ?merge? the contents of multiple floppies to make a single > good one > > These are all 8? diskettes. > > The complicating factors in all of this are: > a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII > b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for > c) not sure what the ?on-disk? structure looks like > d) the only 8? diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) > equipment > > Any ideas/comments would be welcome. > > Thanks. > > TTFN - Guy > -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jan 8 00:46:25 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 22:46:25 -0800 Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <20180107223338.1c9ce638@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> <20180107223338.1c9ce638@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <6ADEAF42-7CEF-41EA-9B4D-A99274AA68FE@shiresoft.com> Thanks Lyle. My biggest impediment at the moment is not actually having a PC that has a floppy drive. :-o The other is time?work has been crazy as indicated by Jensen?s CES keynote tonight where the chip that I?ve been working on was just announced! yea! 9,000,000,000 transistors! TTFN - Guy > On Jan 7, 2018, at 10:33 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > Hi Guy, > > I just copied several IBM 8" Maintenance Device (MD) Diskettes - and > verified that the copies work on the IBM MD. They seem to be in an IBM > 3x0 format (with a standard IBM VTOC). > > Track 0 on the diskettes is 128 byte sectors, > Tracks 1 through 76 are 256 byte sectors. > The diskettes are DSSD. > > (So you need a Shugart 850/851 (or equivalent) to make the copies). > > I used both Teledisk and IMD - and both successfully captured and > re-created the diskettes correctly. > > More in editing IBM images later... > > Cheers, > Lyle > > > On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 11:52:56 -0800 > Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331. I would >> somehow like to image them so: a) I have backups in case the floppies >> themselves go bad b) be able to investigate their contents in case I >> have to ?merge? the contents of multiple floppies to make a single >> good one >> >> These are all 8? diskettes. >> >> The complicating factors in all of this are: >> a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII >> b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for >> c) not sure what the ?on-disk? structure looks like >> d) the only 8? diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) >> equipment >> >> Any ideas/comments would be welcome. >> >> Thanks. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> > > > > -- > 73 AF6WS > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 00:48:04 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 23:48:04 -0700 Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <002601d38676$de9cfe90$9bd6fbb0$@gmail.com> References: <8D2821F8-A557-42B7-BDFE-E079D6584AB0@shiresoft.com> <002601d38676$de9cfe90$9bd6fbb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 3:45 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > IBM invented the 8" floppy disk format. Generally their disks follow the > standard 3740 format. > True for anything you're likely to encounter in the "real world", but in the interest of muddying the waters I'll point out that IBM's _first_ floppy drives, used for microcode load on big iron, were NOT even remotely compatible with the later 3740 and succesors. The disk was the same physical size, but the index hole was near the edge of the disk, rather than near the spindle. They spun at 90 RPM rather than 360, and were read-only. (Obviously IBM had some drives that could write that format, but they didn't provide them to customers.) I think it's a safe bet that the 4331 microcode disks do NOT use that format. Guy would have noticed if the diskettes didn't look like "normal" 8-inchers. From rp at servium.ch Mon Jan 8 03:08:39 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 09:08:39 +0000 Subject: AIX 4.1.3 on 7009-C20 RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As far as I remember trying to install the client version of AIX on a server type machine will bomb early in the installation, but it will give you some confirmation that it did indeed boot from the CD. Maybe your CD is indeed bad. Any specific reason why you want to run 4.1.3 and not 4.1.5, 4.2.1 or 4.3.3? (is there any hardware that only works with 4.1.3?). On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 4:57 AM, Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Any RS/6000 hobbyists out there? > > > I got my old 7009-C20 pretty tricked out and hardware carefully selected > to be compatible with AIX 4.1.3, the version I'm trying to get running on > it. Unfortunately, I can't get the dang thing to boot my 4.1.3 or 4.1.4 > CD's. It'll boot my 4.1.5 disc, however. The 4.1.3 and 4.1.4 CD's are > labeled "AIX for clients" or something like that, and I seem to recall > having trouble getting other RS/6000's to boot from this 4.1.3 CD, even > though it's genuine original media, and reads just fine in a working system. > > > Anyone know a way to check what systems an old AIX 4.1 disc supports, or > have C20 or similar MCA machine running 4.1.3? > > > My other thought was to try to NIM boot it using my ThinkPad 860 as a NIM > server (running 4.1.5), but it unfortunately doesn't have enough capacity > to hold a lpp_source and a SPOT, and even then it looks like the 4.1.3 disc > may not have enough stuff on it to support the C20 anyway... > > > Anyway, thanks in advance! > > From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Jan 8 00:04:48 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 01:04:48 -0500 Subject: ADDS Envoy terminal question In-Reply-To: <3fe11314-a8ca-bd1a-1e10-f72cef23d468@jwsss.com> References: <7e0b048f-add0-cbc3-073a-6f6a43d937a8@snarc.net> <3fe11314-a8ca-bd1a-1e10-f72cef23d468@jwsss.com> Message-ID: >> Does anyone have an ADDS Envoy portable terminal, circa 1972-1976? If >> so, then please let me know if what if any are the U.S. patent numbers >> cited on it. >> >> Thanks, >> Evan > Is this the portable 5" version?? I will look if that is what you're after. > thanks > Jim I think so. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 06:50:54 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 13:50:54 +0100 Subject: Need keyboard for IBM 528x In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6 January 2018 at 16:17, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech wrote: > (it came with an 8? disk JFYI: your email client is sending a superscript 2 character instead of double quotes. This is often due to Apple OSes configured to use smart quotes. You might wish to turn that off. E.g. https://www.jordanmerrick.com/posts/ios-11-smart-punctuation -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 8 07:25:12 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 08:25:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions. Message-ID: <20180108132512.6A8BD18C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steven Malikoff > That's the first actual photo I've seen of the foot, and I see what you > mean. Oh, I can take more, then; let me know what you need. > Let's regard the inner vertical surface where it mates to the rack as > the normal surface. Right; that's our reference plane. > If you have a length of something straight .. clamp it with a .. clamp > to that inner surface Umm, not possible. There are two diagonal (in the horizontal plane) ribs coming off that surface, so there's no way to clamp anything vertical to it. The _front_ (outer) surface, parallel to the reference plane, I could get to (and the clamp is a good idea). Here's what I wound up with: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/StabilizerMeasurement.jpg (Yes, yes, I know, tha assumes the back face of the square is parallel to the front; it is, pretty much - I checked with a vernier calipers.) So the vertical distance from the horizontal plane at the bottom of the stabilizer, at its tip, to the bottom of the 'outer surface' (as above), is 17/32". The distance from the plane of the 'outer surface' to the end of the stabilizer is 7-9/16". The distance between the reference plane and the 'outer surface' is 7.14mm (one thing I _could_ get a vernier calipers on :-). Also, it turns out the right-hand vertical face of the stabilizer is _not_ perpendicular to the reference plane! The foot angles in slightly. The outer vertical surface is a plane along its entire length, so it's hard to notice unless you put a square on it directly: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/StabilizerAngled.jpg (Sorry about the lens distortion; wanted to show that the square was along the reference plane.) I couldn't get anything clamped on to make the measurement, but the tip of the stabilizer is about 1/2" (to a /32nd, or so) in from a vertical plane perpendicular to the reference plane, and situated at the right-most location on the foot (i.e. along the edge of the square, in that photo). > A pencil rubbing on paper, or paper creasing slong eges then drawn over > with a ruler can also help to get angled surfaces. Sorry, couldn't figure that out? > Another thing, CAD can make good use of non-perpendicular measurements. > So if you're able to measure something across a diagonal or at some odd > angle, then please do so. It can be used to triangulate and improve > other taken measurements, like a point cloud. What other measurements should I take? One easy/obvious one is from the right-hand outer bottom corner of the stabilizer to the left-hand bottom corner of the reference plane: that's 8-9/32". (A lot of these corners are rounded, so exact measurements are a matter of choice....) The top inner corner of the right-hand face is 9-11/32" from the bottom outer corner of that face (same corner as above). Noel From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jan 8 08:55:19 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 07:55:19 -0700 Subject: To the 2901 bit slicers out there In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <167fac71-e030-0aa2-b442-43ef7e7c7c76@e-bbes.com> On 2018-01-07 19:46, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 1/6/2018 4:01 PM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >> On 2017-12-27 21:35, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: >> >>> What have you done, with microprogramming this part?? In your >>> architecture,? have you changed the microcode, create an instruction >>> to enhance your machine? >>> I would be interested in any hardware projects, stories (or even in >>> the FPGA, I hear its a popular thing to copy); >> >> I hope you saw this one. Fresh on opencores: >> >> https://opencores.org/project,am9080_cpu_based_on_microcoded_am29xx_bit-slices >> >> >> cheers >> > > I don't expect many people will copy that. A FPGA 8080 runs darn fast as > is. Ben. And I don't expect people in this group to look for "fast". I think they are interested in "cool" or historically significant. And it is cool, that finally somebody took the am9080 application note and put it into an FPGA. It is a nice start to a lot of bit slice designs. > PS: I plan to have some sort of 20 or 24 cpu bit 2901 running in a DE1 > FPGA this spring. 3 - 7 bit bytes (21/20 bit wide memory for the 20 bit > CPU) or 3 - 8 bit bytes with a 24 bit cpu. Might need to order more > Front panel switches how ever. Good luck! From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Mon Jan 8 09:04:57 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 08:04:57 -0700 Subject: AIX 4.1.3 on 7009-C20 RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, http://ps-2.kev009.com/ has my RS/6k preservation Why are you trying to install that specific version? For "standard" MCA systems there are only three versions the really "matter" IMHO and backward binary compatibility is good in AIX: 3.2.5, 4.3.3, 5.1. 3.2.5 is best for early POWER1 and includes a compiler. 4.3.3 is a good balance of performance, new enough C/POSIX interfaces to port stuff, features, etc. 5.1 is fine on more powerful machines (the C20 with cache should be ok). For newer PCI systems 5.1, 5.3, 7.1 are the interesting versions. 5.1 for PReP, 5.3 for older CHRP, 7.1 for P4-P6. 7.2 will only run on P7+. And then the oddball systems like the Apple Network Server and ThinkPad 800s have their own 4.1 releases, and the 7007-N40 has a special 3.2.5 release. I have the ANS and N40 releases if anyone needs them. Regards, On Sun, Jan 7, 2018 at 9:57 PM, Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk wrote: > Any RS/6000 hobbyists out there? > > > I got my old 7009-C20 pretty tricked out and hardware carefully selected to be compatible with AIX 4.1.3, the version I'm trying to get running on it. Unfortunately, I can't get the dang thing to boot my 4.1.3 or 4.1.4 CD's. It'll boot my 4.1.5 disc, however. The 4.1.3 and 4.1.4 CD's are labeled "AIX for clients" or something like that, and I seem to recall having trouble getting other RS/6000's to boot from this 4.1.3 CD, even though it's genuine original media, and reads just fine in a working system. > > > Anyone know a way to check what systems an old AIX 4.1 disc supports, or have C20 or similar MCA machine running 4.1.3? > > > My other thought was to try to NIM boot it using my ThinkPad 860 as a NIM server (running 4.1.5), but it unfortunately doesn't have enough capacity to hold a lpp_source and a SPOT, and even then it looks like the 4.1.3 disc may not have enough stuff on it to support the C20 anyway... > > > Anyway, thanks in advance! > From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Mon Jan 8 09:13:23 2018 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 09:13:23 -0600 Subject: ID board Dilog SU723A Message-ID: <85fcf54c-14e0-0425-db62-bcbec5880f8e@hal-pc.org> I have this board Dilog SU7 23A Does anyone know this board?? I think it may be a SCSI controller. I cannot tell if it is Unibus or Qbus. Any help appriciated. Sincerely, John Welch From pb at pbcl.net Mon Jan 8 09:18:51 2018 From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 15:18:51 +0000 Subject: ID board Dilog SU723A In-Reply-To: <85fcf54c-14e0-0425-db62-bcbec5880f8e@hal-pc.org> References: <85fcf54c-14e0-0425-db62-bcbec5880f8e@hal-pc.org> Message-ID: <1515424731.8413.52.camel@pbcl.net> On Mon, 2018-01-08 at 09:13 -0600, John Welch via cctech wrote: > Does anyone know this board? I think it may be a SCSI controller. I > cannot tell if it is Unibus or Qbus. According to: http://www.dilog.com/unibus.html it's: SU723A SCSI, TMSCP, 7drives, Quad Height. and (judging from the URL) it's presumably Unibus. hth p. From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 09:42:25 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 09:42:25 -0600 Subject: HP 9816 logging and skyline software -- any interest? In-Reply-To: <458773981.2246365.1515382039502@mail.yahoo.com> References: <458773981.2246365.1515382039502.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <458773981.2246365.1515382039502@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 7, 2018 at 9:27 PM, Dave via cctalk wrote: > Hi Folks! > I have documentation for some forestry software, that came with my HP9816 machines. I am not sure, but I may have a tape or disk to go with it. > It's called "MSAP", for Multispan Skyline Analysis Program, and appears to be a successor to the software documented in the following links: > http://bit.ly/2EjAC0N > http://bit.ly/2CFp2wk > > I have no use for it, but it seems like it may be of historical value. Would anyone here be interested in it? As part of the "scan it all" camp, I'd say it should be preserved (tapes/disks, too). IIRC, you are in the UK? Are you set up to do the scans? From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Mon Jan 8 10:08:21 2018 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 16:08:21 +0000 Subject: AIX 4.1.3 on 7009-C20 RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi there! Yeah, it never gets so far as to put any information up on the console. Only some LED codes that indicates it attempts boot, then goes back to the ROM menu. After some more research last night, looks like I'd need the 4.1.3 for Servers for D5 Processor Group, so this media probably isn't going to get me anywhere, even if I could try a NIM boot. As for why 4.1.3, I have some old stuff that requires that version. I'm fully aware that 4.3.3 or even 5.1 would probably result in a more useful system overall, and I have media kits for both, but 4.1.3 only is what's in scope right now. Anyway, thanks much! ________________________________ From: Rico Pajarola Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 1:08 AM To: Benjamin Huntsman; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: AIX 4.1.3 on 7009-C20 RS/6000 As far as I remember trying to install the client version of AIX on a server type machine will bomb early in the installation, but it will give you some confirmation that it did indeed boot from the CD. Maybe your CD is indeed bad. Any specific reason why you want to run 4.1.3 and not 4.1.5, 4.2.1 or 4.3.3? (is there any hardware that only works with 4.1.3?). On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 4:57 AM, Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk > wrote: Any RS/6000 hobbyists out there? I got my old 7009-C20 pretty tricked out and hardware carefully selected to be compatible with AIX 4.1.3, the version I'm trying to get running on it. Unfortunately, I can't get the dang thing to boot my 4.1.3 or 4.1.4 CD's. It'll boot my 4.1.5 disc, however. The 4.1.3 and 4.1.4 CD's are labeled "AIX for clients" or something like that, and I seem to recall having trouble getting other RS/6000's to boot from this 4.1.3 CD, even though it's genuine original media, and reads just fine in a working system. Anyone know a way to check what systems an old AIX 4.1 disc supports, or have C20 or similar MCA machine running 4.1.3? My other thought was to try to NIM boot it using my ThinkPad 860 as a NIM server (running 4.1.5), but it unfortunately doesn't have enough capacity to hold a lpp_source and a SPOT, and even then it looks like the 4.1.3 disc may not have enough stuff on it to support the C20 anyway... Anyway, thanks in advance! From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Mon Jan 8 14:34:12 2018 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 20:34:12 +0000 Subject: Seeking VT220 flyback Message-ID: <87mv1oytrv.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> I asked a while back, but thought I'd try again. I'm looking for a replacement flyback transformer for a VT220-F, part number 16-26299-01 by TAI HO. I've found a few online, a bit higher priced than I'd like, especially after import tax. If you have one you'd be willing to sell, please get in touch. Thanks, Aaron. -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk From shadoooo at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 14:03:01 2018 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 21:03:01 +0100 Subject: ID board Dilog SU723A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I also have a Dilog SU723A, but never managed to find any docs for it. My board is revision D. It works be very nice to find something. As the MSCP / TMSCP selection is only a matter of firmware, I wouldn't be surprised if the MSCP SU726A was the same board with different PROM. Andrea From js at cimmeri.com Mon Jan 8 18:05:40 2018 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 19:05:40 -0500 Subject: ID board Dilog SU723A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A540754.70209@cimmeri.com> On 1/8/2018 3:03 PM, shadoooo via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > I also have a Dilog SU723A, but never managed to find any docs for it. > My board is revision D. > It works be very nice to find something. > > As the MSCP / TMSCP selection is only a matter of firmware, I wouldn't be > surprised if the MSCP SU726A was the same board with different PROM. > > Andrea Does the 723 work differently than the 726? I'd saved the below 726 info from somewhere. Info re Dilog SU726A There is, indeed, a serial port. I have found documentation for other DiLog boards and on them the serial port is relatively standard (unlike the Viking, on which the serial signals are embedded on the SCSI connector I think). The documentation also suggests there may be two methods to get at setup from the system console. The first method (loading 77777 into and then jumping to 2000) hasn't worked so far. I am about to try booting from 175000 to see if that works. Otherwise, I will have to look for the appropriate serial cable. The documentation I have for a different DiLog board gives a Digital part number BC20N-05 for the serial cable, and also gives the pin-outs. Here are the details: Method 1: You need to know what address the board is set for. The board has two consecutive addresses in the I/O page. In console ODT, open up the first address and deposit 0. Open up the second address and deposit 77777. Start executing at location 2000, thus: @17760344/xxxxxx 0 @17760346/xxxxxx 77777 @2000g Method 2: Install jumpers at JP13 and JP14. Boot from address 175000, thus: @175000g In either case you get an "*" prompt. Type FT to start the setup program. (You can also specify a device to boot from by entering a device name and unit number here.) Hope this helps the next guy. - Rob Rob Brown brown at gmcl.com http://gmcl.com/ From js at cimmeri.com Mon Jan 8 18:03:14 2018 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 19:03:14 -0500 Subject: DEC tape drives and cards In-Reply-To: <5A525098.8050108@cimmeri.com> References: <5A525098.8050108@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <5A5406C2.9060905@cimmeri.com> On 1/6/2018 5:51 AM, shadoooo via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > I have some doubt about DEC tape units and related interfaces. > > What I know about (right or wrong, please correct): > - TU80 is a Pertec drive, it needs M7454 (unibus, TS11 driver) which is a > modified Dilog DU132. No option for QBUS. > > - TS05 is a Pertec drive, it needs TSV05 (qbus, TSV05 driver) which is a > modified Emulex ???) > > - TU81 plus is LESI or Pertec, you need KLESI (unibus / qbus, TMSCP driver). > > Now the questions: > I have both a TU80 and TU81plus, and both Unibus and Qbus machines, but no > interfaces. > I would like to connect at least TU80 to unibus, and TU81 to qbus, but for > backup reasons it would be better to have both drives on both busses. > > What are the DEC or third party card which would fit better on my drives, > and/or which would offer better driver compatibility with various OSs (via > switchable configuration). > > I'm not sure about interface compatibility (Pertec interfaces could be > swapped), > and driver compatibility (what is better for RT11, what for BSD, what for > VMS). > > I would accept also some offer to my email, if somebody has something > interesting to sell (better if in EU). > > Thanks > Andrea I only have SCSI tape drives, and a TS05. But take a look at the various Emulex tape controllers. I believe TS11 and TMSCP emulations are what you'd want. TC02 Q Emulex Pertec-interface tape drive controller. Emulates TS11. Early revisions incompatible with VMS. TC02 Q Emulex Pertec-interface tape drive controller. Emulates TS11. Early revisions incompatible with VMS. Supports 1-4 Cipher F880, CDC 92181, Kennedy 6809, and Pertec F1000. TC02/FS Q Emulex .5" reel-to-reel tape controller, TC05 Q Emulex CDC Sentinel .25" cartridge tape controller. Emulates TS11. Supports CDC 92192 Sentinel. TC05/SX Q Emulex .5" reel-to-reel tape controller. TC11/N U Emulex .5" reel-to-reel tape controller. Emulating TM11/TU10. TC11/P U Emulex .5" reel-to-reel tape controller. Emulating TM11/TU10. TC11/V U Emulex .5" reel-to-reel tape controller. Emulates MT11/TU10. Needs Emulex VAX/UT software. TC12 U Emulex .5" reel-to-reel tape controller. Emulates TS11. 22-bit. Supports 1-4 Cipher F880, CDC 92181, Kennedy 6809, and Pertec F1000. TC12/FS U Emulex .5" reel-to-reel tape controller, TC13 Q Emulex Pertec-interface tape drive controller. Switchable TU81 TMSCP or TS11 emulation. TC13 U Emulex Pertec-interface tape drive controller. Switchable TU81 TMSCP or TS11 emulation. Supports 1-4 Cipher F880, CDC 92181, Kennedy 6809, and Pertec F1000. {above excerpted from M. Gentry's Field Guide) - js. From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Mon Jan 8 19:17:18 2018 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 19:17:18 -0600 Subject: ID board Dilog SU723A In-Reply-To: <1515424731.8413.52.camel@pbcl.net> References: <85fcf54c-14e0-0425-db62-bcbec5880f8e@hal-pc.org> <1515424731.8413.52.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: Thanks!? I did some searching but all The Google could find were a few re-sellers that had the board but no info.? The 'feet' of the board (the part that plugs into the buss sockets) are labeled C, D, E, and F so it sort of smelled like unibus. Have you ever used one of these boards? On 1/8/2018 9:18 AM, Phil Blundell wrote: > On Mon, 2018-01-08 at 09:13 -0600, John Welch via cctech wrote: >> Does anyone know this board?? I think it may be a SCSI controller. I >> cannot tell if it is Unibus or Qbus. > > According to: > > http://www.dilog.com/unibus.html > > it's: > SU723A SCSI, TMSCP, 7drives, Quad Height. > > and (judging from the URL) it's presumably Unibus. > > hth > > p. From jsw at ieee.org Mon Jan 8 19:41:50 2018 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 19:41:50 -0600 Subject: ID board Dilog SU723A In-Reply-To: References: <85fcf54c-14e0-0425-db62-bcbec5880f8e@hal-pc.org> <1515424731.8413.52.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: <2599CDC3-7E38-4359-867E-6864953E5733@ieee.org> > On Jan 8, 2018, at 7:17 PM, John Welch via cctech wrote: > > Thanks! I did some searching but all The Google could find were a few re-sellers that had the board but no info. The 'feet' of the board (the part that plugs into the buss sockets) are labeled C, D, E, and F so it sort of smelled like unibus. > > Have you ever used one of these boards? > > > On 1/8/2018 9:18 AM, Phil Blundell wrote: >> On Mon, 2018-01-08 at 09:13 -0600, John Welch via cctech wrote: >>> Does anyone know this board? I think it may be a SCSI controller. I >>> cannot tell if it is Unibus or Qbus. >> >> According to: >> >> http://www.dilog.com/unibus.html >> >> it's: >> SU723A SCSI, TMSCP, 7drives, Quad Height. >> >> and (judging from the URL) it's presumably Unibus. >> >> hth >> >> p. Take a look at ftp://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dilog/2120-0147_DU686_ESDI_MSCP_Nov87.pdf Its only Unibus type device I have seen a Dilog Manual for. It might help you sort out the Unibus addressing if the basic design of the host controllers are consistent between products. Obviously the media side will be completely different. Jerry From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Jan 9 05:56:16 2018 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 12:56:16 +0100 Subject: DEC quad board rack In-Reply-To: <20180101185857.3542118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180101185857.3542118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20180109115616.GJ32723@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Jan 01, 2018 at 01:58:57PM -0500, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > No, as long as you have either a radial arm saw (best), or a table saw > (preferably with a 'sled' - if you don't have one, probably worth making one) > to cut all the slots. > > Like I said, if you want a drawing, let me know. A few data bits: the slot > pitch (slot center to slot center distance) is 5/8"; I used 1/8" for the depth > of the bottom slot (just enough to hold it in place), and 3/16" for the top > (some extra, to allow for board size variation). The shelf-shelf spacing (i.e. > bottom of one, to the top of the next) is 10-1/4" (i.e. the repeat distance is > 11", when using 3/4" boards). > Thank you for sharing Noel. I'm going to do the same sooner or later. In retrospect are there any measurements you would do differently if you did it again? E.g. Have you found any boards that need higher clearance to the next? Thank you, Pontus. From lars at nocrew.org Tue Jan 9 06:06:05 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2018 12:06:05 +0000 Subject: DL10 documentation Message-ID: <7wtvvvkziq.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Hello, Richard Cornwell wants to implement DL10 for his KA10/KI10 simulator, but he doesn't have any documentation for it. Any leads? From bygg at cafax.se Tue Jan 9 14:25:19 2018 From: bygg at cafax.se (Johnny Eriksson) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 14:25:19 WET Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 09 Jan 2018 12:06:05 +0000 Message-ID: Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Hello, > > Richard Cornwell wants to implement DL10 for his KA10/KI10 simulator, > but he doesn't have any documentation for it. Any leads? First question is: since the DL10 is a DMA device for a handful of PDP11s, what is intended at the other (unibus) end of it? I have found that http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp10/periph/MP00068_DN87_Universal_Comm_System_Front_End_Jan76.pdf contains the engineering drawings for the DL10. Also, the tops-10 source file D85INT.MAC (from the unsmon directory) contains the driver for it. If the idea is to get more terminal lines, maybe a DC10 scanner would be an easier starting point. --Johnny From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 9 07:36:09 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 08:36:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: DL10 documentation Message-ID: <20180109133609.BA29618C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lars Brinkhoff > Richard Cornwell wants to implement DL10 for his KA10/KI10 simulator, > but he doesn't have any documentation for it. Any leads? Well.... The "decsystem10 System Reference Manual (DEC-10-XSRMA-A-D) - available online: http://bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-10-XSRMA-A-D%20DECsystem10%20System%20Reference%20Manual.pdf has a definition for the -10 side of the interface on pages C-21 and following (page 365 of the PDF). It just specifies the I/O instructions and bits, there's no description of how it works. Still, that will help understand code that uses it; the complete ITS code is available. I couldn't find anything on the PDP-11 side of the interface; ITS' IOELEV > does define a "DLXCSR", and the bits in it, but ... it seems to be a memory location, not a register? The DL10 was used in two DEC system products, the DC76 Asynchronous Communication System, and the DN87 and DN87S Universal Communication System Front Ends. I couldn't find any documentation on the former, but complete prints for the latter are available: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/periph/MP00068_DN87_Universal_Comm_System_Front_End_Jan76.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/periph/MP00109_DN87S_Universal_Comm_System_Front_End_Sep78.pdf It includes a complete set of prints for the DL10. From this, and also from: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/bb-d549g-sb/01/boot11.mem.html it appears that the PDP-11's connected to the DL10 have a special console which has a cable which goes to the DL10 which allows the PDP-10 to start and stop the PDP-11; the PDP-11's UNIBUS runs into the DL10 and is plugged into the DL10. Anyway, it's going to be some hard work to create a DL10 programming manual from those dribs and drabs, but there is enough info there that it can be done. Noel From cliff52 at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 07:32:45 2018 From: cliff52 at gmail.com (Cliff Miller) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 08:32:45 -0500 Subject: HP 9816 logging and skyline software -- any interest? In-Reply-To: <458773981.2246365.1515382039502@mail.yahoo.com> References: <458773981.2246365.1515382039502.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <458773981.2246365.1515382039502@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9C5D309E-BE8F-470F-B040-9E40F7AEA4D9@gmail.com> Dave - I have a 9817 I?m trying to get working. I have the display working and a keyboard but no HIL cable yet. No mass storage, either so I?m looking for a 9121 or similar HP-IB drive. I?d be happy to assume responsibility for the software you have / pay for shipping, etc. The 9817 identifies as a 9816 on the ROM splash screen but I?m speculating it will run. I have 1 meg of RAM available and the composite video. - Cliff Miller, Evans, GA Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 7, 2018, at 10:27 PM, Dave via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Folks! > I have documentation for some forestry software, that came with my HP9816 machines. I am not sure, but I may have a tape or disk to go with it. > It's called "MSAP", for Multispan Skyline Analysis Program, and appears to be a successor to the software documented in the following links: > http://bit.ly/2EjAC0N > http://bit.ly/2CFp2wk > > I have no use for it, but it seems like it may be of historical value. Would anyone here be interested in it? > dave From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 9 09:35:30 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 10:35:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC quad board rack Message-ID: <20180109153530.06D5E18C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pontus Pihlgren > Thank you for sharing Noel. Well, I thought people might find it useful. Over time,I've made a variety of shelf designs to hold my boards, searching for something that worked really well, and I liked this one so much I thought it was worth passing it on. In fact, I liked it so much that I took the dual rack (next to it in the picture) which held boards horizontally, and re-built it into one that holds them vertically, like the quad rack. For the duals, the shelf-shelf spacing (i.e. bottom of one, to the top of the next) is 5" (i.e. the repeat distance is 5-3/4", when using 3/4" planks). > In retrospect are there any measurements you would do differently if you > did it again? Nope. I made another quad rack for my workshop upstairs, and built an exact duplicate of the first one (in the picture). And I made another vertical-type dual rack, also for upstairs. About the only thing I'd have changed (had I thought of it in time) was to make that second dual rack a mixture of dual and quad shelves (which you can trivially do in this design, unlike the horizontal-format one) as I need more quad shelves, and have an excess of dual shelves. Oh well! > E.g. Have you found any boards that need higher clearance to the next? Well... There are some DEC boards which have a Berg connector on the top edge, and ones which use the later Berg (the ones with the little latch handles) sometimes place them too close to the edge. One example of this is the M7800 (DL11); they _just_ fit in a shelf with the 'proper' 10-1/4" spacing, but I have a couple shelves where, due to variation, the shelf-shelf distance is only 10-1/8", and M7800's won't go into them. The M7856 (DL11-W) is the same. For the dual shelves, the E-Rev of the M5904 (MASSBUS transceiver) places the top of the latches about 1mm from the edge of the board. (The F Rev has been re-laid out, to move the connector a but further in.) I guess it would be possible with very careful cutting to space shelves to hold that, but I elected not to; the tolerances are so slight, a bit too far, and boards will come out of slots. And some off-brand QBUS memory puts a resistor a little over 1mm from the card edge, and those also won't go. Noel From lars at nocrew.org Tue Jan 9 11:00:21 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2018 17:00:21 +0000 Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: (Johnny Eriksson via cctalk's message of "Tue, 9 Jan 2018 14:25:19 WET") References: Message-ID: <7wvagbj7bu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> I wrote: >> Richard Cornwell wants to implement DL10 for his KA10/KI10 simulator, >> but he doesn't have any documentation for it. Any leads? Johnny Eriksson wrote: > First question is: since the DL10 is a DMA device for a handful of > PDP11s, what is intended at the other (unibus) end of it? > If the idea is to get more terminal lines, maybe a DC10 scanner would > be an easier starting point. Right, it's for terminals. Specifically, the DC76 supported by ITS. ITS doesn't have many options for terminal scanners. TK10 anyone? Morton box? Knight kludge? Richard has DE10 working already, but that's not supported by ITS. Adding that support is not out of the question, but we want to give the DL10/DC76 a go. Noel Chiappa wrote: > http://bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-10-XSRMA-A-D%20DECsystem10%20System%20Reference%20Manual.pdf > has a definition for the -10 side of the interface on pages C-21 and > following (page 365 of the PDF). It just specifies the I/O instructions and > bits, there's no description of how it works. Thanks! > The DL10 was used in two DEC system products, the DC76 Asynchronous > Communication System, and the DN87 and DN87S Universal Communication System > Front Ends. I couldn't find any documentation on the former Ouch, it's the former we want. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 9 11:42:06 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 12:42:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: DL10 documentation Message-ID: <20180109174206.809B018C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lars Brinkhoff > Specifically, the DC76 supported by ITS. >> The DL10 was used in two DEC system products, the DC76 Asynchronous >> Communication System, and the DN87 and DN87S Universal Communication >> System Front Ends. I couldn't find any documentation on the former > Ouch, it's the former we want. Eh, no problem. The DL10 part is the same, and the PDP-11 devices in the DC76 were almost certainly standard DEC PDP-11 stuff. ITS ran its own code in the PDP-11 attached to the DL10, anyway - looking at IOELEV (in the MX-DL section), it only supported DL11's and DH11's. Those are very well documented. Noel From phil at ultimate.com Tue Jan 9 12:04:57 2018 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 13:04:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: <7wvagbj7bu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <201801091804.w09I4vQh080874@ultimate.com> Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Richard has DE10 working already, but that's not supported by ITS. > Adding that support is not out of the question, but we want to give the > DL10/DC76 a go. ITS speaks TCP (over an IMP interface, which is simulated in KLH10), so it hardly seems worth jumping thru hoops to get hardwired dumb terminals. Now, simulating the DL10 so you can run TVs would REALLY be bringing back a lost artifact!! > > The DL10 was used in two DEC system products, the DC76 Asynchronous > > Communication System, and the DN87 and DN87S Universal Communication System > > Front Ends. I couldn't find any documentation on the former I'm pretty sure DN87S was a DN87 front end attached to a (KL) DTE (Ten/Eleven) interface instead of a DL10 (or POSSIBLY visa versa). phil BUDD at AI KL1026::[31,5732] BUDNE at KL2137 & MRFORT From phil at ultimate.com Tue Jan 9 12:14:57 2018 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2018 13:14:57 -0500 Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: <201801091804.w09I4vQh080874@ultimate.com> References: <201801091804.w09I4vQh080874@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <201801091814.w09IEvEM081030@ultimate.com> I wrote: > Now, simulating the DL10 so you can run TVs would REALLY be bringing > back a lost artifact!! https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/279 says: larsbrinkhoff commented on Mar 31, 2017 I think the number of PDP-11s connected were limited by the address space of the Rubin IO-11 interface. It occupied one of AI's four mobies. One moby can address 16 64k spaces, but somehow I recall seeing the number 8 as the maximum. From lars at nocrew.org Tue Jan 9 12:30:15 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2018 18:30:15 +0000 Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: <201801091804.w09I4vQh080874@ultimate.com> (Phil Budne via cctalk's message of "Tue, 9 Jan 2018 13:04:57 -0500 (EST)") References: <201801091804.w09I4vQh080874@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <7wmv1mkhqg.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Phil Budne wrote: > ITS speaks TCP (over an IMP interface, which is simulated in KLH10), > so it hardly seems worth jumping thru hoops to get hardwired dumb > terminals. Right, SUPDUP is really the best way to talk to ITS. But I'm can't set Richard's priorities. Maybe I can pitch in myself. Chaosnet is another option. > Now, simulating the DL10 so you can run TVs would REALLY be bringing > back a lost artifact!! It's on the radar. Need more volunteers. I have extracted the TV font, so you can use that with your favourite terminal emulator. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 9 12:43:47 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 13:43:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: DL10 documentation Message-ID: <20180109184347.EAF2318C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Phil Budne > simulating the DL10 so you can run TVs would REALLY be bringing back a > lost artifact!! The Knight TV's were connected through the Rubin 10-11 interface, not a DL10. > I'm pretty sure DN87S was a DN87 front end attached to a (KL) DTE > (Ten/Eleven) interface instead of a DL10 (or POSSIBLY visa versa). Ah, right you are: I just assumed from the name (without checking!) that it was some kind of variant on the DN87 - which I guess it is, just a more major one than I thought! :-) I wonder why DEC sold MIT a KL with a DL10 for the second PDP-11 front end? (The Console-11 was connected via a DTE.) Maybe it was so early in the product run that the DN87S didn't exist yet? Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 15:18:26 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 16:18:26 -0500 Subject: Getting Sun Sparcstation 10 to recognize its graphics card Message-ID: Working from this page to configure my sparcstation 10 after NVRAM replacement: http://www.obsolyte.com/sunFAQ/faq_nvram.html ...but curious is there an installation manual or whatever specific to the video card in my system, a TurboXGX with STP3010GPA chip http://vintagecomputer.net/sun/SparcStation-10/Sun_STP3010PGA_TURBOXGX.jpg I have Solaris 4 installed. I am guessing around trying different things. With help I have the OS installed but so far I can't get the system to recognize the video card and Sun keyboard. With these installed it freezes the system...so, I am using a serial terminal to interact with the system. The video display I have is an SGI GDM-20D11 Eventually I'll poke through to the solution, this is my first Sun box, up to this point they were "too new" but I'd like to learn how to perform a system install. If I find the answers I am looking for I'll post here. Bill From phil at ultimate.com Tue Jan 9 18:56:55 2018 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2018 19:56:55 -0500 Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: <20180109184347.EAF2318C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180109184347.EAF2318C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201801100056.w0A0utcV087143@ultimate.com> > Ah, right you are: I just assumed from the name (without checking!) that it > was some kind of variant on the DN87 - which I guess it is, just a more major > one than I thought! :-) The later-day TOPS-10 front-end ecosystem which included the DN87 was called "ANF-10" (*) and included both local (DL10/DTE) interfaced systems as well a remote nodes (both 8's and 11's) connected via (DDCMP) sync lines. I'm pretty sure the ANF-10 software was modular, and that the configured devices/drivers were determined by a compile time config file. The DNxx designations might have been more a matter of supported configurations and catalog designations. I hesitate to use the term "off the shelf" since my usual way in to my cubicle on the second floor of "MR2" at DEC Marlborugh was thru the third floor, which was manufacturing, and you could see entire hardware configurations set up for test before delivery, so EVERYTHING was hand constructed, and I don't know where the group that boxed up a separately purchased ANF10 node was located (in Marlborough, or somewhere else), and it's entirely possible that each and every front-end sold ran hand configured software. from http://www.ultimate.com/phil/pdp10/10periphs DAS78 IBM bisync support (up to 16 360, 370, and/or 2780's) (PDP-11 via DL10) DAS82 11/40 remote station via KG11(DQ11?) 9600 sync, CR11 300CPM CDR, LP11 250LPM LPT, 2xDH11 32 async lines (c.f. DN82) DAS85 11/40 via DL10 upto 16 DQ11 sync lines at 9600 (max 50kb agregate) c.f. DN85 ... DC44 TYPESET-10 front end (PDP-11) for PTR (PA611R), PTP (PA611P), CAT? photocomposition machine (LPC11) DC68A PDP-8(/I) 680(/I) communications system (via DA10): PDP-8/I-D w/ 4K memory DC71 ANF10 PDP-8/I remote station: CTY, DP01 sync, CR08 CDR, LP08 140LPM 64-char LPT, upto 16xDC02F async lines DC72A ANF10 PDP-8/E remote station: DP8E sync, CDR, 170LPM 96-char LPT, upto 2xDC72L DC72B ANF10 PDP-8/E remote station: DP8E sync, CDR, 240LPM 64-char LPT, upto 2xDC72L DC72C ANF10 PDP-8/E remote station: DP8E sync, CDR, 53LPM 64-char LPT, upto 2xDC72L DC72L 8 FDX async lines on DC72A/B/C DC75 sync (PDP-11/15 & DS11's via DL10) DN8x code base! (cf DAS85?) DC76 communications (PDP-11/40 via DL10) upto 128 async lines (50-9600bps) DC76F 16 async lines on DC76 (DH11 + DM11?) ... DN20 sync/async (11/34 via DTE) front end [ie; DECnet MCB] (KMC11,DUP11,DMC11,DZ11,LP20,!KG11) DN200 ANF10 remote station (11/34) (Updated DN82) *or* DECnet remote station DN22 ANF10 remote station (11/04) (DMC11,DZ11,!KG11) w/ MOP ROM DN61 TOPS-10 Bisync; PDP-11/40 via DL10; 12 2780/3780 RJE stations or emulated 2780/3780 RJE stations DN61S TOPS-10 Bisync; PDP-11/40 via DTE; 2780/3780 RJE stations or emulated 2780/3780 RJE stations DN62 DN61 with HASP support DN62S DN62 via DTE DN64 TOPS-20 Bisync; PDP-11/34 via DTE; 2780/3780 RJE stations or emulated 2780/3780 RJE stations DN65 DN64 with HASP support DN71 remote station (PDP-8/I) (c.f. DC71?) DN72 remote station (PDP-8/E) (c.f. DC72?) DN80 ANF10 remote station (11/40) w/ DQ11; CDR, LPT, CTY DN81 ANF10 remote station (11/40) w/ DQ11; 32 TTYs DN82 ANF10 remote station (11/40) w/ DQ11; 32 TTYs, CDR, LPT, CTY (cf DAS82) DN85 ANF10 sync (11/40 via DL10) (cf DAS85?) DN87 ANF10 sync/async (11/40 via DL10) front end DN87S ANF10 sync/async (11/40 via DTE) front end (DL11,DH11,DM11,DN11,DQ11) DN92 ANF10 remote station (PDP-8/A); (Updated DC72) My recall is that (some of) the front end software started in a group that did custom engineering, and was later productized, and that the designations "DAS" were from the former, and "DN" were the latter. I'm not sure where the "DC" designations fall, my notes (below) indicate the DC75 was built from the same code base as DN8x, and possibly based on DAS85 (unclear if this refers to code or just hardware), or how, or whether a DC68 differs from a "680". ISTR the hardware in the 680 configuration used "bit-banging" to implement async lines!! I think Tim Litt could speak more authoritatively about ALL this, and ISTR I've seen him speak up on the SIMH list, if not here. Perhaps writing these words will summon him? > I wonder why DEC sold MIT a KL with a DL10 for the second PDP-11 front end? > (The Console-11 was connected via a DTE.) Maybe it was so early in the > product run that the DN87S didn't exist yet? Could very well be. MC was DEFINITELY an early system (see below). ISTR the DTE was a DMA interface, not memory mapping like the DL10, so that might have factored in as well. For all I know at the point MC was sold, noone had ever connected more than one 11 to a DTE, or more than one DTE to a KL. I collected the following KL serial numbers in the 80's (when I worked for DEC in Marlborough and was an ITS tourist): 1026 one half of TOPS-10 development/time-sharing SMP system 1038 MC 1031 Hardware Development (rans TOPS-20?) 1042 second half of TOPS-10 development/time-sharing SMP system I also seem to recall that MC was designated as a "1080" which the above URL says means "Model A, External channels only, tall cabs, DECtapes", while a 1090 is a "Model B" system (new backplane, expanded microcode space, capable of running extended addressing microcode, and could have "internal" (RH20) massbus channels). MC's (Model A) microcode would not run on a Model B CPU. I remember finding documentation on MC for "KLDCP" the original DEC front-end software (suitably defaced) which DEC later replaced with a modified version of RSX-11, which allowed the KL to use the front end to speak to character devices (other than the console and diagnostic KLINIC (sp?) line). Some more excessive rambling: TOPS-20 didn't speak to ANF-10 front ends, and ALL character devices (printers, cards, terminals, (paper tape??)) were connected to the RSX-20F front end 11/40. TOPS-10 would run on any KL sold for TOPS-20 (see 1091 below) But if you had a 1090 that normally ran TOPS-10, you might boot TOPS-20 on it (if you put the system pack on a drive that was dual ported to the console front-end and an RH20 channel), but you could only use RH20 connected disk drives, and serial lines connected to the console front-end (which might only be the console and KLINIC (sp?) ports) Machines sold for TOPS-20 were designated 20x0, (and GENERALLY had no PDP-10 I/O bus adaptor, internal (MOS) memory instead on an external memory bus, only internal channels, UNLESS they were sold to ARPAnet sites) came in low, orange cabinets, with RX01 floppies instead of DECtapes on the front-end 11, and had serial numbers above 2100 (2102 was the TOPS-20 development system, BB&N had 2105). ISTR ARPAnet systems (despite the fact that they might end up running TOPS-20) were sold as 1091T (a 1091 was a blue, low-cabinet system sold to run TOPS-10), due to the fact that they had an external I/O bus for the IMP interface). ISTR there was an orange system in Marlborugh that sometimes was used for TOPS-20AN (ARPAnet) development, and was also sometimes used by the TOPS-10 group for tri-CPU SMP configurations (2136?) but maybe I'm conflating two systems. It seemed like powers of two were used for PDP-10 CPU serial number boundaries: The dual KI-10 system in Marlborough (gone before I started work there, but I saw it on a visit) had CPUs 514 and 546. The TOPS-10 Development system (TWINKY-- the command to switch your ANF-10 front-end connected terminal from one ANF-10 host to another was "SET HOST(ESS)") was S/N 4096, and the TOPS-20 group had 4097. (*) "A Network For 10s?" possibly based on a VERY early spec for DECnet. It may have used link-state routing. I don't think routing in DECnet appeared before Phase III; Between Phase II systems you needed to use a passthru service, and ended up hand specifying routes, like in the UUCP world: A::B::C:: -- DECnet routing (at least up to Phase IV) was distance vector (within an area, I think node zero was designated to be a route to an inter-area router). The ONE nice thing I remember about Phase IV is that an area could span multiple Ethernet links, so you didn't have to waste a "network number" on each Ether segment the way you had to use a Class-C in TCP/IP before subnetting. I've wondered how much longer the IPv4 address space might have lasted if there hadn't been a constraint that each network link have its own network number (and each interface be uniquely addressable). DECnet Phase V encompassed ISO, and might have included IS-IS, which Rhea Perlman had a hand in (while at DEC?). XNS (and hence Netware) had 32-bits network number (host/node address was 48 bits (ethernet address) and might also have had longer legs for global use. But I'm using IPv4 to type this, so it's not dead yet! From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 18:01:45 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 19:01:45 -0500 Subject: Getting Sun Sparcstation 10 to recognize its graphics card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill, Are you sure the SGI monitor will work with the Sun graphics adapter? Just because the plug fits doesn't mean the monitors are compatible, when it comes to 13W3. It may be just transferring control to the video console and *appear* to be locking up, and you're not getting anything out of the display as a result. Do you get diagnostic LED patterns on the keyboard LEDs? Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 4:18 PM, william degnan via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Working from this page to configure my sparcstation 10 after NVRAM > replacement: > http://www.obsolyte.com/sunFAQ/faq_nvram.html > > ...but curious is there an installation manual or whatever specific to the > video card in my system, a TurboXGX with STP3010GPA chip > http://vintagecomputer.net/sun/SparcStation-10/Sun_STP3010PGA_TURBOXGX.jpg > > I have Solaris 4 installed. I am guessing around trying different things. > With help I have the OS installed but so far I can't get the system to > recognize the video card and Sun keyboard. With these installed it freezes > the system...so, I am using a serial terminal to interact with the system. > The video display I have is an SGI GDM-20D11 > > Eventually I'll poke through to the solution, this is my first Sun box, up > to this point they were "too new" but I'd like to learn how to perform a > system install. > > If I find the answers I am looking for I'll post here. > > Bill > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Jan 10 01:48:32 2018 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 20:48:32 +1300 Subject: DP 1000 and filing off IC identifiers? Why? Message-ID: Hi, My apologies for cross-posting. I?m putting this on a few of the forums I have a third party TRS-80 Model 1 expansion unit that I used with my System 80 when I first got disk drives. I?ve decided I should add some pics and info to the System 80 website as I know they were used here in New Zealand with System 80?s and, also in the U.K. for the Video Genie. A modified expansion cable was needed to convert from the System 80 expansion bus to the TRS-80 Model 1 bus on the unit but that was straightforward. The interface is called a DP 1000 by General Northern Microcomputers Ltd. It has no RAM, but contains a disk controller and printer port. It was designed for ?80s Model 1s and compatibles that had 48K of RAM under the keyboard, rather than requiring it in the expansion unit, as was the standard configuration. Many System 80s had their memory expanded under the keyboard so it was ideal for these. Mine was like this, and I found my DP 1000 worked very well with it. Before I put some info up, I?m wondering if anyone knows any more about General Northern Microcomputers Ltd, the company that made the DP 1000? I?m pretty sure it?s a U.K. company. Also, most of the chips have their ID?s shaved off (see the circuit board image)?? Why would they do this? I can only assume it was to stop reverse engineering? Here are some pics: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/hardware_DP-1000-front-800.jpg http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/hardware_DP-1000-back-800.jpg http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/hardware_DP-1000-circuit-board-top-hi-res.jpg Cheers Terry From mgariboldi at gmail.com Wed Jan 10 05:03:34 2018 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (em gee) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 12:03:34 +0100 Subject: offering: computer, A/V and optical equipment, plus books and more, to be cleared out around mid-December In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Happy New Year to everyone. The ?deadline? was relaxed a bit (due to the holidays) and I also updated the overview (here: ) once more. - MG 2017-12-04 5:50 GMT+01:00 em gee : > Thank you for the interest, today I'll personally reply to those who > showed interest. (My apologies, I didn't find the opportunity during the > weekend.) > > I also created another overview of what I have up for sale: < > http://bit.ly/2ifO5xE> (Which I'll be updating.) > > - MG > > From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Jan 10 01:40:35 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 23:40:35 -0800 Subject: Getting Sun Sparcstation 10 to recognize its graphics card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <029face3-735f-eb72-5cac-4e8d5aa544a8@snowmoose.com> Jonathan may be on to something here. I only deal with Sun stuff and am mostly unfamiliar with SGI stuff. However, I use LCD displays with 13W3-to-VGA adapters on my Suns and, relevant to this discussion, I know that the adapters used with Suns are different from the ones with SGIs, though I don't know the details. alan On 1/9/18 4:01 PM, systems_glitch via cctech wrote: > Bill, > > Are you sure the SGI monitor will work with the Sun graphics adapter? Just > because the plug fits doesn't mean the monitors are compatible, when it > comes to 13W3. It may be just transferring control to the video console and > *appear* to be locking up, and you're not getting anything out of the > display as a result. > > Do you get diagnostic LED patterns on the keyboard LEDs? > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 4:18 PM, william degnan via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Working from this page to configure my sparcstation 10 after NVRAM >> replacement: >> http://www.obsolyte.com/sunFAQ/faq_nvram.html >> >> ...but curious is there an installation manual or whatever specific to the >> video card in my system, a TurboXGX with STP3010GPA chip >> http://vintagecomputer.net/sun/SparcStation-10/Sun_STP3010PGA_TURBOXGX.jpg >> >> I have Solaris 4 installed. I am guessing around trying different things. >> With help I have the OS installed but so far I can't get the system to >> recognize the video card and Sun keyboard. With these installed it freezes >> the system...so, I am using a serial terminal to interact with the system. >> The video display I have is an SGI GDM-20D11 >> >> Eventually I'll poke through to the solution, this is my first Sun box, up >> to this point they were "too new" but I'd like to learn how to perform a >> system install. >> >> If I find the answers I am looking for I'll post here. >> >> Bill >> From jon at jonworld.com Wed Jan 10 01:44:44 2018 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 07:44:44 +0000 Subject: Getting Sun Sparcstation 10 to recognize its graphics card In-Reply-To: <029face3-735f-eb72-5cac-4e8d5aa544a8@snowmoose.com> References: <029face3-735f-eb72-5cac-4e8d5aa544a8@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: SGIs did sync on green. Sun uses a dedicated signal. SGI trinitron-based (Sony OEM) monitors should handle both. If you boot your SS10 to the point where you think it is dead and then unplug/replug the keyboard it should bring you back to the ?ok? prompt. Shows the system is still running OK without output. On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 at 07:40, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > Jonathan may be on to something here. I only deal with Sun stuff and am > mostly unfamiliar with SGI stuff. However, I use LCD displays with > 13W3-to-VGA adapters on my Suns and, relevant to this discussion, I know > that the adapters used with Suns are different from the ones with SGIs, > though I don't know the details. > > alan > > On 1/9/18 4:01 PM, systems_glitch via cctech wrote: > > Bill, > > > > Are you sure the SGI monitor will work with the Sun graphics adapter? > Just > > because the plug fits doesn't mean the monitors are compatible, when it > > comes to 13W3. It may be just transferring control to the video console > and > > *appear* to be locking up, and you're not getting anything out of the > > display as a result. > > > > Do you get diagnostic LED patterns on the keyboard LEDs? > > > > Thanks, > > Jonathan > > > > On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 4:18 PM, william degnan via cctech < > > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Working from this page to configure my sparcstation 10 after NVRAM > >> replacement: > >> http://www.obsolyte.com/sunFAQ/faq_nvram.html > >> > >> ...but curious is there an installation manual or whatever specific to > the > >> video card in my system, a TurboXGX with STP3010GPA chip > >> > http://vintagecomputer.net/sun/SparcStation-10/Sun_STP3010PGA_TURBOXGX.jpg > >> > >> I have Solaris 4 installed. I am guessing around trying different > things. > >> With help I have the OS installed but so far I can't get the system to > >> recognize the video card and Sun keyboard. With these installed it > freezes > >> the system...so, I am using a serial terminal to interact with the > system. > >> The video display I have is an SGI GDM-20D11 > >> > >> Eventually I'll poke through to the solution, this is my first Sun box, > up > >> to this point they were "too new" but I'd like to learn how to perform a > >> system install. > >> > >> If I find the answers I am looking for I'll post here. > >> > >> Bill > >> > > -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 From rp at servium.ch Wed Jan 10 01:54:59 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 07:54:59 +0000 Subject: Getting Sun Sparcstation 10 to recognize its graphics card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Freeze as in "screen stays blank (but pressing caps lock changes the LED)", or "system does not boot at all", or "system boots but locks up when initializing graphics"? I assume it's just the screen staying blank. Note that using an SGI monitor on a sun using a 13W3 to 13W3 cable will not work. There's 2 ways around it: you can either use a 13W3 to BNC cable connected to a BNC to 13W3 cable to connect the monitor, thus disconnecting all non-RGB pins, or you can cut off the extra (non-RGB) pins on either side of the cable (I've successfully done that to connect SGI machines to SUN monitors but it should work the other way around too). On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 9:18 PM, william degnan via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Working from this page to configure my sparcstation 10 after NVRAM > replacement: > http://www.obsolyte.com/sunFAQ/faq_nvram.html > > ...but curious is there an installation manual or whatever specific to the > video card in my system, a TurboXGX with STP3010GPA chip > http://vintagecomputer.net/sun/SparcStation-10/Sun_STP3010PGA_TURBOXGX.jpg > > I have Solaris 4 installed. I am guessing around trying different things. > With help I have the OS installed but so far I can't get the system to > recognize the video card and Sun keyboard. With these installed it freezes > the system...so, I am using a serial terminal to interact with the system. > The video display I have is an SGI GDM-20D11 > > Eventually I'll poke through to the solution, this is my first Sun box, up > to this point they were "too new" but I'd like to learn how to perform a > system install. > > If I find the answers I am looking for I'll post here. > > Bill > From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Wed Jan 10 02:34:09 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 00:34:09 -0800 Subject: New Items from Sellam's Collection For Sale (8-bit Bonanza) Message-ID: Hello Folks, I've listed a bunch of new items for sale, all of them 8-bit boxed computers and peripherals. Apple Joystick IIe and IIc (boxed) - $65 Atari 1027 Letter Quality Printer (boxed) - $45 Commodore 64 (boxed, incomplete, bad video) - $55 Commodore MPS-803 Printer (boxed) - $50 Databar OSCAR Optical Scanning Reader for TI 99/4a (boxed, incomplete) - $40 Dauphin DTR-1 "Desktop Replacement" (boxed)* - qty. 2, both work; 2nd unit is missing its stylus; both units require minor solder repair to power supply connector - $250 for first unit, $150 for second unit, $350 for both Gibson Light Pen System for Apple II/II+/IIe (boxed) - $40 IBM PC Convertible Serial/Parallel Interface (boxed) - $15 IBM PCjr Joystick (boxed, shrinkwrapped, qty. 2) - $20 each Logitech ScanMan Handheld Scanner (boxed) - $25 Radio Shack TRS-80 Deluxe Joystick Cat. No. 26-3012A (boxed) - $35 Science Fair [Radio Shack Cat. No. 28-218] Digital Computer Kit (boxed) - $35 Thrustmaster Rudder Control System (IBM and Mac) (boxed) - $25 Flight Link AV-C Flight Simulator Controls - hardware only; needs work; not boxed - $250 Wico Merlin Joystick (boxed) - $20 Yamaha CX5M Music Computer (boxed) - $165 More information is available on the VCFed forums at the following link: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?58709-New-Items-For-Sale-Check-the-List-and-Make-an-Offer-or-Request&p=493450#post493450 I also created an unboxing video for your viewing pleasure: https://youtu.be/I-yu1EsR9Xg The description has a video index in case you want to jump to specific items. As always, please reply directly to me via e-mail for the fastest response. Thanks! Sellam From jon at jonworld.com Wed Jan 10 06:03:50 2018 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 12:03:50 +0000 Subject: Getting Sun Sparcstation 10 to recognize its graphics card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 7:54 AM, Rico Pajarola via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I assume it's just the screen staying blank. Note that using an SGI monitor > on a sun using a 13W3 to 13W3 cable will not work. There's 2 ways around > it: you can either use a 13W3 to BNC cable connected to a BNC to 13W3 cable > to connect the monitor, thus disconnecting all non-RGB pins, or you can cut > off the extra (non-RGB) pins on either side of the cable (I've successfully > done that to connect SGI machines to SUN monitors but it should work the > other way around too). > > I may have gotten the SUNW system -> SGI Monitor thing backwards. There are cobwebs in this part of my brain! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 10 07:07:22 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:07:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: DL10 documentation Message-ID: <20180110130722.44D3F18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Phil Budne > ISTR the DTE was a DMA interface, not memory mapping like the DL10 I don't know either; I could probably work it out from looking at the DTE documentation, which I'm too lazy/busy to do... :-) > I also seem to recall that MC was designated as a "1080" which the above > URL says means "Model A, External channels only, tall cabs Yup, that's what it was. > I remember finding documentation on MC for "KLDCP" the original DEC > front-end software (suitably defaced) which DEC later replaced with a > modified version of RSX-11 MC, on the other hand, ran KLDCP ('KL Diagnostic Console Program') until the end. (The sources of DEC KLDCP version 7 are still available from the MC dumps, if anyone wants them, along with the MIT-modified version.) The console -11 on MC ran a 'combination' of IOELEV and KLDCP - the two remained pretty much separate, just cooperated to share the machine: KLDCP does JSR PC, [to 03000] when it has nothing to do and 10 is running. IOELEV should INIT if it hasn't already, then go into its main loop. It should CLC, RTS PC if the 10 goes down; KLDCP will print appropriate message. To go into temporary KLDCP command mode, SEC, RTS PC. I get the impression from the IOELEV source that it ran on the -11 connected to the DL10 first (stand-alone, by itself), and was later adapted to share the console -11 with KLDCP. Amusing comment in the KLDCP source: WE HAVE GONE TO CONSIDERABLE DIFFICULTY AND EXPENSE TO ASSEMBLE A STAFF OF SORCERERS, SHAMANS, CONJURERS AND LAWYERS TO VISIT NETTLESOME AND MYSTIFING DISCOMFORTS ON ANY NINNY WHO ENDEAVORS TO REPRODUCE OR USE THIS PROGRAM IN ANY FORM OR BY ANY MEANS, ELECTRONIC OR OTHERWISE, INCLUDING COMPUTERS AND INFORMATION SYSTEMS, WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM THE DEVELOPER. WATCH YOURSELF! > diagnostic KLINIC (sp?) line). KLINIK, according to KLDCP stuff. Noel From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Jan 10 07:56:25 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:56:25 -0500 Subject: Getting Sun Sparcstation 10 to recognize its graphics card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, I use a 13W3 adapter and a VGA Samsung SyncMaster LCD on my bench. The adapter is generic and happens to work on both Sun and SGI machines (as mentioned, this is not guaranteed). Thanks, Jonathan On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Jonathan Katz via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 7:54 AM, Rico Pajarola via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I assume it's just the screen staying blank. Note that using an SGI > monitor > > on a sun using a 13W3 to 13W3 cable will not work. There's 2 ways around > > it: you can either use a 13W3 to BNC cable connected to a BNC to 13W3 > cable > > to connect the monitor, thus disconnecting all non-RGB pins, or you can > cut > > off the extra (non-RGB) pins on either side of the cable (I've > successfully > > done that to connect SGI machines to SUN monitors but it should work the > > other way around too). > > > > > I may have gotten the SUNW system -> SGI Monitor thing backwards. There are > cobwebs in this part of my brain! > From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jan 10 08:23:31 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 09:23:31 -0500 Subject: Getting Sun Sparcstation 10 to recognize its graphics card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 8:56 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Yeah, I use a 13W3 adapter and a VGA Samsung SyncMaster LCD on my bench. > The adapter is generic and happens to work on both Sun and SGI machines (as > mentioned, this is not guaranteed). > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > At this point I see the scrolling bars of a synch issue. I can drop using STOP A to the OK prompt (even though I can't actually see it) and run the boot command from the keyboard confirming that I can at least use the keyboard now and initiate a reboot without serial terminal. So my machine is probably getting closer to what I wanted even if so far I don't have the correct display / cable combo installed. I have a lot of displays and 13W3/4 wire/VGA converter cables/etc to mess around with so sooner or later I will get one. Bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 10 09:15:10 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 10:15:10 -0500 Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: <201801100056.w0A0utcV087143@ultimate.com> References: <20180109184347.EAF2318C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201801100056.w0A0utcV087143@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <4984EBA1-C6A7-4B24-82E1-07E36037BB25@comcast.net> > On Jan 9, 2018, at 7:56 PM, Phil Budne via cctalk wrote: > > ... > (*) "A Network For 10s?" possibly based on a VERY early spec for > DECnet. It may have used link-state routing. I don't think routing > in DECnet appeared before Phase III; Between Phase II systems you > needed to use a passthru service, and ended up hand specifying routes, > like in the UUCP world: A::B::C:: -- DECnet routing (at least up to > Phase IV) was distance vector (within an area, I think node zero was > designated to be a route to an inter-area router). The ONE nice thing > I remember about Phase IV is that an area could span multiple Ethernet > links, so you didn't have to waste a "network number" on each Ether > segment the way you had to use a Class-C in TCP/IP before subnetting. > I've wondered how much longer the IPv4 address space might have lasted > if there hadn't been a constraint that each network link have its own > network number (and each interface be uniquely addressable). DECnet phase 1 was point to point, usually described as RSX only though there is a DECnet-8 document that describes it. DECnet phase 2 is also point to point except for "intercept" nodes which do routing (by node name -- not number). As I understand it, intercept was intended for PDP-10/20 systems where the front end would be the intercept, but that may be a misunderstanding on my part. I worked on DECnet/E, which neither asked for nor offered intercept. An intercept node is more than a router, actually; it keeps connection state (NSP state) so it can disconnect connections whose destination has gone away. Note that Phase 2 NSP doesn't do timeout and retransmit, because it works on a "reliable" datalink (DDCMP). DECnet phase 3 adds distance vector routing, NSP now has timeout and retransmit. 255 nodes max, no hierarchy. Still only point to point (X.25 was added). DECnet phase 4 adds hierarchy, Ethernet support. This is where the infamous "high order MAC address" hack was concocted. And yes, areas are not subnets, for that matter addresses are node addresses, not interface addresses, in all versions of DECnet. That made a bunch of things much cleaner while complicating a few others. Phase 4 is still distance vector, now with two instances: one for routing within the area, one for routing among areas. The latter is present only in area routers. And yes, in the within-area routing table, node number 0 is the alias for "any destination outside this area". > DECnet Phase V encompassed ISO, and might have included IS-IS, > which Rhea Perlman had a hand in (while at DEC?). XNS (and hence > Netware) had 32-bits network number (host/node address was 48 bits > (ethernet address) and might also have had longer legs for global > use. Phase 5 adopted OSI ES-IS (network layer) and TP-4 (transport layer). ISO didn't have a routing protocol; their theory was that the world is X.25-ish stuff where telcos do the routing in a proprietary way. That was obviously nonsense, so the DECnet architecture team created a link state routing protocol inspired by earlier IP work, with a lot of fixes to deal with failures. That was then adopted by OSI as IS-IS, and further tweaked to become OSPF. A bit of obscure history: When she first arrived at DEC (1981?), Radia proposed a link state routing protocol for what would be phase 4. That wasn't adopted because it was considered too complicated by the VMS team; instead "phase 3e (3 extended)" was created by a straightforward hack of phase 3, and that is what we now know as phase 4. But the packet headers in Radia's proposal were retained for the Eternet case, which is where the "long headers" come from with a whole pile of fields with strange names that are for practical purposes simply reserved values. When we outgrew phase 4 and link state was dusted off again, OSI had become relevant so a new design was created on that basis. So the link state algorithm is in IS-IS but the packet formats and addressing are entirely different from the previous "long header" Ethernet stuff. All DECnet versions from phase 3 onward were one phase backward compatible. Phase 2 wasn't backward compatible with phase 1; the packet formats are rather different. I'm not sure why this wasn't done; perhaps no one thought it would be interesting. No DEC product that I know of was multiple-phase backward compatible and no spec says how to do that, but it isn't actually hard; my Python based router does so. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 10 09:52:17 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 10:52:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: DL10 documentation Message-ID: <20180110155217.C0BD218C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > That was then adopted by OSI as IS-IS, and further tweaked to become > OSPF. Err, no. OSPF was not a descendant of IS-IS - it was a separate development, based mainly on the ARPANET's original link state routing. (I can't recall if John Moy and I took a lot from the later 'area' version of the ARPANET link state, although we knew of it.) I think we became aware of IS-IS as OSPF progressed, and IIRC John 'borrowed' a few ideas (maybe the sequence number thing). IS-IS was later evolved to handle both OSI and IP addresses (and has, I assume, since been extended to handle IPv6 too). Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 10 10:01:45 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 11:01:45 -0500 Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: <20180110155217.C0BD218C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180110155217.C0BD218C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0A95AF84-8161-4CF5-9242-4AF7A8DC1A66@comcast.net> > On Jan 10, 2018, at 10:52 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> That was then adopted by OSI as IS-IS, and further tweaked to become >> OSPF. > > Err, no. OSPF was not a descendant of IS-IS - it was a separate development, > based mainly on the ARPANET's original link state routing. (I can't recall if > John Moy and I took a lot from the later 'area' version of the ARPANET link > state, although we knew of it.) I think we became aware of IS-IS as OSPF > progressed, and IIRC John 'borrowed' a few ideas (maybe the sequence number > thing). That may be the story, but I don't believe it. Contemporary accounts have it that he started from a draft IS-IS spec. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 10 10:05:32 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 11:05:32 -0500 Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: <201801100056.w0A0utcV087143@ultimate.com> References: <20180109184347.EAF2318C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201801100056.w0A0utcV087143@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <5AD131C5-4C1D-46E1-BA6C-9B907E87FBB5@comcast.net> > On Jan 9, 2018, at 7:56 PM, Phil Budne via cctalk wrote: > ... > DC44 TYPESET-10 front end (PDP-11) for PTR (PA611R), PTP (PA611P), CAT? photocomposition machine (LPC11) That takes me back a while... 6 channel paper tape equipment, for communicating with typesetting machinery of that era. Which reminds me: > ...(*) "A Network For 10s?" possibly based on a VERY early spec for > DECnet. It may have used link-state routing. I don't think routing > in DECnet appeared before Phase III; I don't know anything about ANF-10. But while routing appeared in DECnet with phase 3, that was not the first time DEC did routing. Earlier (late 1977, I think -- certainly by summer 1978), Typeset-11 did link state routing. It had a primitive kind of cluster that operated by passing work around as files, via a proprietary protocol over DMC-11 links, with link state routing. It was pretty transparent: terminals were connected to any of the nodes, and could edit work and pass it around (to other people or to processing components such as typesetting back ends) independent of the location of those other resources. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 10 10:13:47 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 11:13:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: DL10 documentation Message-ID: <20180110161347.C07D518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > That may be the story, but I don't believe it. Well, I was right there - I was the chief architect of the Proteon router product, for which John Moy worked, and was the person who pushed John into doing OSPF (he didn't think he knew enough). I'm to busy right now to dig back through my ancient records (paper and email) to find details, but I can assure you we did not 'base' OSPF on IS-IS. Was anyone from whom you have heard differently _at Proteon_? If not... Noel From dave at 661.org Wed Jan 10 11:27:11 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 17:27:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: data cassette and robotic arms Message-ID: This looks like fun. http://www.avrfreaks.net/forum/decoding-old-data-casette-format I'm not associated in any way with this. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 10 12:45:25 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 10:45:25 -0800 Subject: data cassette and robotic arms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9a521f5f-87cd-c11d-30b4-e584b5bf1444@sydex.com> On 01/10/2018 09:27 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > This looks like fun. > > http://www.avrfreaks.net/forum/decoding-old-data-casette-format > > I'm not associated in any way with this. Most of the commercial/industrial tape cassette drives of the 70s and 80s used standard saturation recording, not audio recording. I remember a dual-deck Techtran drive that I was very fond of. It could run up to 9600 bps and do searches as well as tape-to-tape copying. I'm occasionally contacted by folks with old EDM rigs, like the Mitsubishi DWC-90H, looking for help. Those took an external cassette drive. Fortunately, there's an outfit that offers a PC-based solution to supply the tape deck functionality. For a time, cassette decks were used as a substitute for punched paper tape in the commercial embroidery business They were supplanted by floppy drive boxes, eventually (e.g. Barudan). --Chuck From kelly at catcorner.org Wed Jan 10 13:30:42 2018 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 19:30:42 +0000 Subject: Generic Cassette interfaces (was: data cassette and robotic arms) In-Reply-To: <9a521f5f-87cd-c11d-30b4-e584b5bf1444@sydex.com> References: , <9a521f5f-87cd-c11d-30b4-e584b5bf1444@sydex.com> Message-ID: All this talk about computer cassette data got me reminiscing. Back in the late 80's and early 90's I worked programming remote Campbell Scientific data loggers for an environmental engineering group. The device could store well head data for several days and monitor 8 wells from one data logger. Field techs (like me) would go around the active sites and download the data from the units onto cassette tapes using a device like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Campbell-Scientific-Inc-C20-Cassette-Interface-/391956667276?hash=item5b42701b8c Here's some technical info on the device: https://s.campbellsci.com/documents/us/product-brochures/b_c20.pdf When we got back, the data would be read from cassette into VisiCalc on the TRS-80 model IIs we used. Later I wrote a program to read the data into Microsoft multiplan running under Tandy Xenix. We'd plug the interface into a terminal aux port, open it for reading, then convert it into a SYLK layout. Were there other devices that did data transport like that. Kelly From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 10 14:18:21 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 15:18:21 -0500 Subject: PDP11 media looking for a good home Message-ID: Gentlepeople, I have two items that I'd like to send to a good home. That means, someone who can read the item in question and make it available so it's preserved. 1. A DECtape labeled "VT30 distribution for RSX11D V06-B". VT30 is a DEC CSS product, a color alphanumeric terminal. 2. An RA60 pack labeled "RT11 V5.6" and possibly (it's hard to see) "kit". That "kit" seems a bit unlikely, an RA60 is way bigger than makes sense for an RT11 kit. But if it were a source pack that would be a different matter. #2 was found in an abandoned DEC facility; #1 I don't remember, possibly the same. An RA60 pack looks physically like an RM03 pack, but its capacity is much larger so the format is entirely different. A PDP11 or VAX with an RA60 drive should be able to read it. If you have the ability to use one or both of these and are willing to read the data and post it, please contact me. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jan 10 14:58:20 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 15:58:20 -0500 Subject: PDP11 media looking for a good home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paul, The VCFed museum (Wall NJ USA) could use the RA60 pack for its 11/44. I donated the 11/44 with a RA60 drive a few years ago, but I am unsure if an RA60-bootable pack came with it, most of what they got are just data packs IIRC. I personally don't have an RA60 Please advise and I can send you an address to mail / arrange to pick up. Bill On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 3:18 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Gentlepeople, > > I have two items that I'd like to send to a good home. That means, > someone who can read the item in question and make it available so it's > preserved. > > 1. A DECtape labeled "VT30 distribution for RSX11D V06-B". VT30 is a DEC > CSS product, a color alphanumeric terminal. > > 2. An RA60 pack labeled "RT11 V5.6" and possibly (it's hard to see) > "kit". That "kit" seems a bit unlikely, an RA60 is way bigger than makes > sense for an RT11 kit. But if it were a source pack that would be a > different matter. > > #2 was found in an abandoned DEC facility; #1 I don't remember, possibly > the same. > > An RA60 pack looks physically like an RM03 pack, but its capacity is much > larger so the format is entirely different. A PDP11 or VAX with an RA60 > drive should be able to read it. > > If you have the ability to use one or both of these and are willing to > read the data and post it, please contact me. > > paul > > From steven at malikoff.com Wed Jan 10 16:07:02 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 08:07:02 +1000 Subject: DP 1000 and filing off IC identifiers? Why? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0770acee10174c5df1b203bcebd21a77.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Terry said > I have a third party TRS-80 Model 1 expansion unit that I used with my > System 80 when I first got disk drives. I?ve decided I should add some > pics and info to the System 80 website as I know they were used here in New > Zealand with System 80?s and, also in the U.K. for the Video Genie. A > modified expansion cable was needed to convert from the System 80 expansion > bus to the TRS-80 Model 1 bus on the unit but that was straightforward. > > The interface is called a DP 1000 by General Northern Microcomputers Ltd. > It has no RAM, but contains a disk controller and printer port. It was > designed for ?80s Model 1s and compatibles that had 48K of RAM under the > keyboard, rather than requiring it in the expansion unit, as was the > standard configuration. Many System 80s had their memory expanded under > the keyboard so it was ideal for these. Mine was like this, and I found my > DP 1000 worked very well with it. > > Before I put some info up, I?m wondering if anyone knows any more about > General Northern Microcomputers Ltd, the company that made the DP 1000? > I?m pretty sure it?s a U.K. company. > > Also, most of the chips have their ID?s shaved off (see the circuit board > image)?? Why would they do this? I can only assume it was to stop reverse > engineering? > > Here are some pics: > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/hardware_DP-1000-front-800.jpg > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/hardware_DP-1000-back-800.jpg > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/hardware_DP-1000-circuit-board-top-hi-res.jpg I have an Apple II RGB card made in 1981 by D.M.S. Ltd, also in the UK. Its 9 chips also have the ID's removed but they did a much smoother job than on your board with the whole top blank, presumaby being sanded off before assembling. Maybe the smaller UK companies like were more worried about reverse engineering, considering the retail cost of microcomputer peripherals at that time. Certainly here in Oz things such as Apple add-ons were not at all cheap. I don't think it would be too difficult to figure out what most of those chips are. Looking at the printed traces I'm just guessing the two 20-pin ones to the right of the WD 1771 FDC are perhaps 74LS244 tri-state buffers. Maybe they can be tested in-circuit with a pulser but otherwise if you didn't mind unsoldering them (resocket afterwards) one of these gizmos could help: https://www.ebay.com/itm/IC-Tester-74-40-45-Series-lC-Logic-Gate-Tester-Digital-Detection-IC-Series-Mete Steve. From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Jan 10 13:30:44 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 11:30:44 -0800 Subject: Any interest Risc 6000/250 Message-ID: https://photos.app.goo.gl/qqEF53fVbpNhYoTX2 In storage, if any interest will find out what's in it and the condition. Location Portland Oregon Price cheap/trade -pete From RichA at livingcomputers.org Wed Jan 10 13:49:36 2018 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 19:49:36 +0000 Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: <20180110130722.44D3F18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180110130722.44D3F18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8697803b7ead4f6db54add183f231a8d@livingcomputers.org> From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 5:07 AM > From: Phil Budne >> I remember finding documentation on MC for "KLDCP" the original DEC >> front-end software (suitably defaced) which DEC later replaced with a >> modified version of RSX-11 > MC, on the other hand, ran KLDCP ('KL Diagnostic Console Program') until the > end. (The sources of DEC KLDCP version 7 are still available from the MC > dumps, if anyone wants them, along with the MIT-modified version.) The > console -11 on MC ran a 'combination' of IOELEV and KLDCP - the two remained > pretty much separate, just cooperated to share the machine: > KLDCP does JSR PC, [to 03000] when it has nothing to do and 10 is > running. IOELEV should INIT if it hasn't already, then go into its main > loop. It should CLC, RTS PC if the 10 goes down; KLDCP will print > appropriate message. To go into temporary KLDCP command mode, SEC, RTS PC. > I get the impression from the IOELEV source that it ran on the -11 connected > to the DL10 first (stand-alone, by itself), and was later adapted to share the > console -11 with KLDCP. > Amusing comment in the KLDCP source: > WE HAVE GONE TO CONSIDERABLE DIFFICULTY AND EXPENSE TO ASSEMBLE A STAFF OF > SORCERERS, SHAMANS, CONJURERS AND LAWYERS TO VISIT NETTLESOME AND MYSTIFING > DISCOMFORTS ON ANY NINNY WHO ENDEAVORS TO REPRODUCE OR USE THIS PROGRAM IN > ANY FORM OR BY ANY MEANS, ELECTRONIC OR OTHERWISE, INCLUDING COMPUTERS AND > INFORMATION SYSTEMS, WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM THE DEVELOPER. WATCH YOURSELF! The original KL-10 running WAITS in the SAIL tri-processor system was a 1080 as well, and used a locally extended version of KLDCP for the front end rather than a second program such as IOELEV. This version of KLDCP includes Ethernet support for the 3Mbit Xerox board, which provides PUP networking to WAITS. We are looking at adding code to this version of KLDCP to allow setting the TOY clock, a TCU-150. (SAIL used a TCU-100 and a hack to get years from 1976-1991; the TCU-150 provides a YEAR field in the date register.) I find it interesting that the SAIL folks never saw the need to do that. :-) Sources for both the original and the WAITS variant are available for perusal at SAILDART.org (Bruce Baumgart's site), and will be visible on our WAITS system once we have IP networking going. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From dave at mitton.com Wed Jan 10 16:09:33 2018 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 17:09:33 -0500 Subject: DL10 documentation Message-ID: <20180110220931.AC5694E758@mx2.ezwind.net> > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) >> From: Paul Koning >> That may be the story, but I don't believe it. >> Was anyone from whom you have heard differently _at Proteon_? If not... I could ask John Shriver ;^) Dave. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jan 10 17:58:58 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 23:58:58 +0000 Subject: PDP11 media looking for a good home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180110235901.9BEFB275F7@mx1.ezwind.net> I gave an RA60 drive to a list member, but he is in the UK, so possibly it that useful..... Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: william degnan via cctalk Sent: 10 January 2018 20:58 To: Paul Koning; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP11 media looking for a good home Paul, The VCFed museum (Wall NJ USA) could use the RA60 pack for its 11/44. I donated the 11/44 with a RA60 drive a few years ago, but I am unsure if an RA60-bootable pack came with it, most of what they got are just data packs IIRC. I personally don't have an RA60 Please advise and I can send you an address to mail / arrange to pick up. Bill On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 3:18 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Gentlepeople, > > I have two items that I'd like to send to a good home. That means, > someone who can read the item in question and make it available so it's > preserved. > > 1. A DECtape labeled "VT30 distribution for RSX11D V06-B". VT30 is a DEC > CSS product, a color alphanumeric terminal. > > 2. An RA60 pack labeled "RT11 V5.6" and possibly (it's hard to see) > "kit". That "kit" seems a bit unlikely, an RA60 is way bigger than makes > sense for an RT11 kit. But if it were a source pack that would be a > different matter. > > #2 was found in an abandoned DEC facility; #1 I don't remember, possibly > the same. > > An RA60 pack looks physically like an RM03 pack, but its capacity is much > larger so the format is entirely different. A PDP11 or VAX with an RA60 > drive should be able to read it. > > If you have the ability to use one or both of these and are willing to > read the data and post it, please contact me. > > paul > > From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Jan 10 19:37:47 2018 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 02:37:47 +0100 Subject: Any interest Risc 6000/250 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1515634667.3951.12.camel@agj.net> ons 2018-01-10 klockan 11:30 -0800 skrev Pete Lancashire via cctalk: > https://photos.app.goo.gl/qqEF53fVbpNhYoTX2 > > In storage, if any interest will find out what's in it and the > condition. > > Location Portland Oregon > > Price cheap/trade > > -pete Is that related to IBM Xstation of the same era (i do have one of those) ? From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Jan 10 19:55:09 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 17:55:09 -0800 Subject: Any interest Risc 6000/250 In-Reply-To: <1515634667.3951.12.camel@agj.net> References: <1515634667.3951.12.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On 1/10/2018 5:37 PM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: > ons 2018-01-10 klockan 11:30 -0800 skrev Pete Lancashire via cctalk: >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/qqEF53fVbpNhYoTX2 >> >> In storage, if any interest will find out what's in it and the >> condition. >> >> Location Portland Oregon >> >> Price cheap/trade >> >> -pete > Is that related to IBM Xstation of the same era (i do have one of > those) ? Same here.? I'd be interested in more info. thanks Jim From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jan 10 20:10:27 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 18:10:27 -0800 Subject: Any interest Risc 6000/250 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 11:30 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > https://photos.app.goo.gl/qqEF53fVbpNhYoTX2 > Looks like it might be this system from the 1993 timeframe? The IBM RISC System/6000 7011 Model 250, Page 1-22 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/rs6000/GA23-2406-03_RISC_System_6000_System_Overview_7ed_Oct93.pdf 66-MHz 601 PowerPC processor 16MB standard system memory One integrated SCSI-2 controller One integrated Ethernet IEEE 802.3 port, with a communication rate of 10Mbps. A thick (10Base5) connector is standard on the system and a twisted pair (10BaseT) adapter is included standard with each system; an optional transceiver for use with thin (10base2) connectors is available Type-3 Micro Channel adapter slots One diskette bay available for expansion Standard device ports and connectors: Keyboard/speaker port Mouse port Tablet port Two serial ports Parallel printer port SCSI-2 SE port Ethernet port From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Jan 10 20:15:59 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 18:15:59 -0800 Subject: Any interest Risc 6000/250 In-Reply-To: References: <1515634667.3951.12.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: Thanks everyone. I've got a few interested people. I will email the first few to replay and the first person who agrees to take it gets it. I maybe a couple weeks before I can go get it and see what shape it is in. I't came from a place where one of my job titles was system admin for engineering and worked up to the day the place was shutdown. -pete On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 5:55 PM, jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 1/10/2018 5:37 PM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: > >> ons 2018-01-10 klockan 11:30 -0800 skrev Pete Lancashire via cctalk: >> >>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/qqEF53fVbpNhYoTX2 >>> >>> In storage, if any interest will find out what's in it and the >>> condition. >>> >>> Location Portland Oregon >>> >>> Price cheap/trade >>> >>> -pete >>> >> Is that related to IBM Xstation of the same era (i do have one of >> those) ? >> > Same here. I'd be interested in more info. > thanks > Jim > > From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Jan 10 20:16:59 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 18:16:59 -0800 Subject: Any interest Risc 6000/250 In-Reply-To: References: <1515634667.3951.12.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: update .. will not be able to email till tomorrow .. -pete On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 6:15 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Thanks everyone. I've got a few interested people. I will email the first > few to replay and the first person who agrees to take it gets it. > > I maybe a couple weeks before I can go get it and see what shape it is in. > > I't came from a place where one of my job titles was system admin for > engineering and worked up to the day the place was shutdown. > > -pete > > On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 5:55 PM, jim stephens via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On 1/10/2018 5:37 PM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: >> >>> ons 2018-01-10 klockan 11:30 -0800 skrev Pete Lancashire via cctalk: >>> >>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/qqEF53fVbpNhYoTX2 >>>> >>>> In storage, if any interest will find out what's in it and the >>>> condition. >>>> >>>> Location Portland Oregon >>>> >>>> Price cheap/trade >>>> >>>> -pete >>>> >>> Is that related to IBM Xstation of the same era (i do have one of >>> those) ? >>> >> Same here. I'd be interested in more info. >> thanks >> Jim >> >> > From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Jan 10 22:12:28 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 23:12:28 -0500 Subject: MIT needs ASR-33 for a demo Message-ID: Who's in the Boston area? A technician at MIT needs to borrow a working ASR-33 for demo there this month. Contact me off-list if you can help... From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jan 11 02:49:27 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 09:49:27 +0100 (CET) Subject: data cassette and robotic arms In-Reply-To: <9a521f5f-87cd-c11d-30b4-e584b5bf1444@sydex.com> References: <9a521f5f-87cd-c11d-30b4-e584b5bf1444@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jan 2018, Chuck Guzis wrote: > For a time, cassette decks were used as a substitute for punched paper > tape in the commercial embroidery business They were supplanted by > floppy drive boxes, eventually (e.g. Barudan). And paper tape is still used in that business (all kind of NC businesses). We got the request to copy a severly worn out tape some time ago, and they were very happy that we could do that with no problems :-) Christian From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 11 08:47:09 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 09:47:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: DL10 documentation Message-ID: <20180111144709.A908618C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I'm to[o] busy right now to dig back through my ancient records (paper > and email) to find details So while I didn't have time to do either of these (my Proteon email, if I still even have it, will be on a magtape I'd have to get Chuck to read; and the paper records are mixed in with a giant pile of other stuff - I was on the IESG while I was at Proteon, and it's all mixed in together), I did take a quick look online to see if I could locate anything from that time period - knowing how bad human memory really is, I wanted to make sure my memory wasn't playing me false. I didn't have high hopes, since stuff from the late 80's is hard to find online, and I my expectations weren't disappointed (at least, in the brief time I could put into it), but I did happen to turn up this: John T. Moy, "OSPF: Anatomy of an Internet Routing Protocol" which I'd vaguely heard about, but don't have (although I have everyone else's books; I'll have to get a copy), wherein one may find (pg. 303) this: "OSPF considered, but did not use, IS-IS as a starting point." which seems fairly definitive, and straight from the horse's mouth. I do wish I had access to more contemporary documents to, to give it a bit more detail. As I recall the circumstances, I had previously wanted to do a link-state replacement for EGP (to be called FGP) but Dave Clark (who was at that time on the Proteon board) shot it down (IIRC, in part because he thought it was too big a job for John - and John was not sanguine either; whereas I had already seen enough of John to know he was quite capable of it). That part I remember clearly, but from here on out it gets hazy (I was so busy with goings-on in the IETF, juggling so many things with that, Proteon, etc), alas; and it's been too many years since those memories were refreshed by use. I do recall that we also needed a better IGP, as RIP was not really that good, and Proteon decided they could do that - and John and I would have agreed that a link-state design was the only way to go. It started out as a Proteon-specific thing, for Proteon's customers, but like SGMP (which started in similar circumstances, before morphing into SNMP), it soon turned into an 'open' effort, in the IETF. I don't recall how (i.e. why) that happened, but I assume it was a similar set of reasoning as with SGMP/SNMP. It might be that if the IETF email archives from that period can be found, they'd have some useful coverage of that. My vague memory is that our biggest design influence was the ARPANET work, and especially the later version which added area support (described in: Josh Seeger and Atul Khanna, "Reducing Routing Overhead in a Growing DDN", MILCOMM '86, IEEE, 1986 which I have in hardcopy somewhere, which I saw on the top of a pile recently, so I can scan it if someone's interested), and also the subject of a memorable briefing to the proto-IETF by Linda Seamonson, which I remember clearly - not the technical details, alas, just at how good a presentation it was! :-) I remember in particular they had a very elegant/clever method for defining the area boundaries. Like I said, we did 'borrow' some idea from IS-IS, in particular the sequence number thing - but that may have come direct from Radia's paper: Radia Perlman, "Fault-Tolerant Broadcast of Routing Information", Computer Networks, Dec. 1983 I don't recall where the concept of a designated router stuff came from, if IS-IS was any influence there or not. I did interact with John quite a bit in the very early design stages (I'd been making a deep study of routing for quite a few years, so I was really the only person there who was steeped in routing he could talk to), but as the work prgressed - particularly once it moved to the IETF - I got out of the loop, as I was too busy with other things, and he clearly had things in hand. I also seem to vaguely recall disagreeing with him about some design points, but I can't remember what. Anyway, probably the wrong list for this. (Internet-history would have been better.) Sorry, I didn't mean to get into a long thing, thought I was just correcting a bit of nth-hand 'telephone-game' type garbling of a minor point.> Noel From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Jan 11 11:11:09 2018 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 18:11:09 +0100 Subject: Any interest Risc 6000/250 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1515690669.4577.2.camel@agj.net> ons 2018-01-10 klockan 18:10 -0800 skrev Glen Slick via cctalk: > On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 11:30 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk > wrote: > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/qqEF53fVbpNhYoTX2 > > > > Looks like it might be this system from the 1993 timeframe? > > The IBM RISC System/6000 7011 Model 250, Page 1-22 > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/rs6000/GA23-2406-03_RISC_System_6000 > _System_Overview_7ed_Oct93.pdf > > 66-MHz 601 PowerPC processor > 16MB standard system memory One integrated SCSI-2 controller One integrated Ethernet IEEE 802.3 port, with a communication rate of 10Mbps. A thick (10Base5) connector is standard on the system and a twisted pair (10BaseT) adapter is included standard with each system; an optional transceiver for use with thin (10base2) connectors is available Type-3 Micro Channel adapter slots One diskette bay available for expansion Standard device ports and connectors: ? Keyboard/speaker port ? Mouse port ? Tablet port ? Two serial ports ? Parallel printer port ? SCSI-2 SE port ? Ethernet port ie a far deal faster than an base-line Sun SS10 and AUI for the Ethernet connection (with included vampire-tap transceiver.) It is concurrent with the IPX (small box and the same time-frame.) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 11:36:41 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 18:36:41 +0100 Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: <201801100056.w0A0utcV087143@ultimate.com> References: <20180109184347.EAF2318C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201801100056.w0A0utcV087143@ultimate.com> Message-ID: On 10 January 2018 at 01:56, Phil Budne via cctalk wrote: > > DECnet Phase V encompassed ISO, and might have included IS-IS, > which Rhea Perlman had a hand in (while at DEC?). I had a major WTF moment at that. The actress had a prior or parallel career as an engineer? Some Googling revealed that you have your R Perlmans muddled. It's Radia Perlman, designer of Spanning Tree. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 11 12:03:36 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 13:03:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: DL10 documentation Message-ID: <20180111180336.0D13B18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Liam Proven > I had a major WTF moment at that. The actress had a prior or parallel > career as an engineer? Why not? Hedy Lamarr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr invented spread spectrum communications! :-) > From: Dave Mitton > I could ask John Shriver ;^) Sure, not a bad idea. He was on the edge of that (he wasn't really part of the IETF world), but perhaps he has some memory that would bear. Noel From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 12:10:44 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 19:10:44 +0100 Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: <20180111180336.0D13B18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180111180336.0D13B18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 11 January 2018 at 19:03, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Liam Proven > > > I had a major WTF moment at that. The actress had a prior or parallel > > career as an engineer? > > Why not? Hedy Lamarr: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr > > invented spread spectrum communications! :-) True! I wasn't saying it was impossible or anything, merely that I thought I might have heard about that, as I had heard about Ms Lamarr. British TV comedians Graeme Garden and Harry Hill were both medical doctors before their media careers, for instance. It does happen. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 11 12:11:35 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 13:11:35 -0500 Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: <20180111144709.A908618C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180111144709.A908618C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 11, 2018, at 9:47 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > ... > Like I said, we did 'borrow' some idea from IS-IS, in particular the sequence > number thing - but that may have come direct from Radia's paper: > > Radia Perlman, "Fault-Tolerant Broadcast of Routing Information", Computer > Networks, Dec. 1983 Yes, that documents work she did at DEC early on, while developing the original link state routing proposal that was intended to be Phase IV but was set aside as "too complicated". > I don't recall where the concept of a designated router stuff came from, if > IS-IS was any influence there or not. Designated router was part of DECnet Phase IV, so early 1980s. OSPF does it in a fundamentally different way: DECnet aimed to be deterministic, OSPF aims to be stable. The consequence is that in DECnet a given topology always has the same designated router no matter the sequence in which things came together, while in OSPF the designated router depends the order in which things happened. There are arguments for either approach; in routers it doesn't matter much. paul From lars at nocrew.org Thu Jan 11 12:22:28 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 18:22:28 +0000 Subject: KA10 ITS revived In-Reply-To: <7wtvvvkziq.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> (Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk's message of "Tue, 09 Jan 2018 12:06:05 +0000") References: <7wtvvvkziq.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7w8td4xnkr.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> > Richard Cornwell wants to implement DL10 for his KA10/KI10 simulator, Speaking of which, Richard and I have been working on running ITS on this. (KA10 obviously, since ITS never ran on a KI10.) It's been over 30 years since all KA10 ITS machines where shut down. But a few days ago we had it booting in the simulator and running the HACTRN DDT. Hats off to the ITS maintainers (mainly Alan Bawden, I think) for keeping the software in good shape during the latter half of the 80s! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 11 12:22:52 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:22:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: References: <20180111180336.0D13B18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: >> > I had a major WTF moment at that. The actress had a prior or parallel >> > career as an engineer? Is Rhea Jo Perlman (1948-)the same person as Radia Joy Perlman (1951-)? They don't look much alike, . . . From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 12:25:41 2018 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 19:25:41 +0100 Subject: PDP11 media looking for a good home Message-ID: Hello Paul, I have a VT30 board set, it would be nice to receive a copy, if not the original, of related bits you have! Maybe also some documentation? Thanks Andrea From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 14:25:07 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 15:25:07 -0500 Subject: Any interest Risc 6000/250 In-Reply-To: <1515690669.4577.2.camel@agj.net> References: <1515690669.4577.2.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: I would be interested in taking a look at such a machine so i could check out AIX. does it take standard vga video and a ps2 keyboard / mouse? can the os install media still be purchased or downloaded? if you are looking to trade i have to choose from acouple sgi indys, some tandy gear, and a couple hp 9000 systems to used with test equipment. i have lots more embedded dos machines and the like here too, if those would be of any interest let me know. On Jan 11, 2018 12:11 PM, "Stefan Skoglund via cctalk" < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > ons 2018-01-10 klockan 18:10 -0800 skrev Glen Slick via cctalk: > > On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 11:30 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk > > wrote: > > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/qqEF53fVbpNhYoTX2 > > > > > > > Looks like it might be this system from the 1993 timeframe? > > > > The IBM RISC System/6000 7011 Model 250, Page 1-22 > > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/rs6000/GA23-2406-03_RISC_System_6000 > > _System_Overview_7ed_Oct93.pdf > > > > 66-MHz 601 PowerPC processor > > 16MB standard system memory > One integrated SCSI-2 controller > One integrated Ethernet IEEE 802.3 port, with a communication rate of > 10Mbps. A thick (10Base5) connector is standard on the system and a > twisted pair (10BaseT) adapter is included standard with each system; > an optional transceiver for use with thin (10base2) connectors is > available > Type-3 Micro Channel adapter slots > One diskette bay available for expansion > Standard device ports and connectors: > Keyboard/speaker port > Mouse port > Tablet port > Two serial ports > Parallel printer port > SCSI-2 SE port > Ethernet port > > > ie a far deal faster than an base-line Sun SS10 > and AUI for the Ethernet connection (with included vampire-tap > transceiver.) > It is concurrent with the IPX (small box and the same time-frame.) > From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Thu Jan 11 15:44:16 2018 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 13:44:16 -0800 Subject: PDP11 media looking for a good home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A57DAB0.2080109@flying-disk.com> Paul Koning wrote: > I have two items that I'd like to send to a good home. That > means, someone who can read the item in question and make it > available so it's preserved. > 1. A DECtape labeled "VT30 distribution for RSX11D V06-B". > VT30 is a DEC CSS product, a color alphanumeric terminal. I have a DECtape TU56 drive and a PDP-11/34, along with RSX for same, so I could copy it for posterity. However, the drive and the PDP-11 are in different rooms right now, and it would be several months before I could unite them and copy the tape. If you cannot find someone who can do it quicker, I will be happy to do the job. (I will be out of town until Tuesday 1/16 and unable to access email.) Alan Frisbie From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 04:22:53 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 11:22:53 +0100 Subject: DECtape archeology. Message-ID: I saw Pauls post about old DECtapes which reminded me about a bunch of DECtapes I had lying here. On my workbench I have a PDP-11/10 with TC11 and TU56 setup which works nicely so I decided to image a few more DECtapes. For those interested in old diagnostics and other things it can be worth looking into. http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/dectapes-1.tgz Some comments: I have not tried to boot any tape natively since my M9312 need a TC boot PROM, need to burn one. I have tried to boot most of them in SimH, but many of them fail with a HALT somewhere. Need to test this further on real hardware as soon as I have a TC bootstrap. D1.DSK had an I/O Error so it is not the full dump. D2.DSK however boots to a prompt: DDP1-V001 28K RSTRT: 155766 .DIR . DIR .BIN 003 17-NOV-71 DTCOPY .BIN 006 17-NOV-71 D0AA .BIN 014 17-NOV-71 What is DDP1-V001? Some early diagnostics monitor? The filesystem seems to be DOS-11 as RT-11 FILEX is able to read the directory with /S D5.DSK is also a DOS-11 file structure and apart from quite some diagnostics also contain FOCAL1.BIN DT5.DSK contain a binary MOON.BIN which according to the label is some variant of Moonlander / Lunarlander. So, yes. I do have a system up and running that can Image that RSX11-D VT30 tape if needed. However it will be moved on the 27th of January. /Mattis From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 12 16:24:59 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 14:24:59 -0800 Subject: GT-40 etc. Message-ID: this is going to go for an insane amt of money https://www.ebay.com/itm/232628720694 From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 17:02:47 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 00:02:47 +0100 Subject: DECtape archeology. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An update to this. It appears that with a git pull on my SimH repo clone and subsequent make all of the disk images that boots on a real machine (with TC boot ROM installed) also boots in SimH. Runnicg FOCAL1 on D5.DSK give .FOCAL1 . ?00 AT 0.00 *TYPE 1.0+3.0 = 4.0000* * So it do seem to do something right... /Mattis 2018-01-12 11:22 GMT+01:00 Mattis Lind : > I saw Pauls post about old DECtapes which reminded me about a bunch of > DECtapes I had lying here. > > On my workbench I have a PDP-11/10 with TC11 and TU56 setup which works > nicely so I decided to image a few more DECtapes. For those interested in > old diagnostics and other things it can be worth looking into. > > http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/dectapes-1.tgz > > Some comments: > > I have not tried to boot any tape natively since my M9312 need a TC boot > PROM, need to burn one. > I have tried to boot most of them in SimH, but many of them fail with a > HALT somewhere. Need to test this further on real hardware as soon as I > have a TC bootstrap. > > D1.DSK had an I/O Error so it is not the full dump. > > D2.DSK however boots to a prompt: > > DDP1-V001 28K RSTRT: 155766 > > .DIR > > > . > > DIR .BIN 003 17-NOV-71 > > DTCOPY .BIN 006 17-NOV-71 > > D0AA .BIN 014 17-NOV-71 > > > What is DDP1-V001? Some early diagnostics monitor? The filesystem seems to > be DOS-11 as RT-11 FILEX is able to read the directory with /S > > > D5.DSK is also a DOS-11 file structure and apart from quite some > diagnostics also contain FOCAL1.BIN > > > DT5.DSK contain a binary MOON.BIN which according to the label is some > variant of Moonlander / Lunarlander. > > > > So, yes. I do have a system up and running that can Image that RSX11-D > VT30 tape if needed. However it will be moved on the 27th of January. > > > /Mattis > > > > From useddec at gmail.com Sat Jan 13 01:42:51 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 01:42:51 -0600 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wonder what happened to the third rack... On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > this is going to go for an insane amt of money > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/232628720694 > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Jan 13 02:22:45 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 02:22:45 -0600 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: wow On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 1:42 AM, Paul Anderson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I wonder what happened to the third rack... > > On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > wrote: > > > this is going to go for an insane amt of money > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/232628720694 > > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 13 06:20:09 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 07:20:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: GT-40 etc. Message-ID: <20180113122009.F191C18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Anderson > I wonder what happened to the third rack... And the TU-56... I'm going to disagree with Al, though - I don't think it's going to go for that much, it's 'local pickup only'. That's going to severely limit the bidder pool. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 13 08:20:58 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 09:20:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: DECtape madness Message-ID: <20180113142058.2BD1518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So why are reels of DECtape selling for unbelievable prices on eBait? See, e.g. here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/372186744906 and here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/372186745609 I can't believe there are hordes of TU55/TU56 owners out there who desperately need media; so what is it? People who think DECtapes were super cool and have to have a reel, even though they don't have a drive? Or are there actually TU55/TU56 owners (remember, it takes two bidders to put the price up) who really need media? Anyway, it looks like this person: https://www.ebay.com/itm/202183912961 who got four for the 'bargain' price of $80 got a 'deal'! Noel From dab at froghouse.org Sat Jan 13 08:34:31 2018 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 09:34:31 -0500 Subject: DECtape madness In-Reply-To: <20180113142058.2BD1518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180113142058.2BD1518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0bfcd9b0-3473-7f3e-aa47-c30e3b281053@froghouse.org> > So why are reels of DECtape selling for unbelievable prices on eBait? See, > e.g. here: I had those on my watch-list and just shake my head at the astonishing prices for the things. I've wondered if you might not make DECtape tape from 3/4" video tape.? I know that DECtape has mylar on both sides but what if you somehow glued two strips of video tape together with the mylar backing on the outside.? Probably want to build a jig of some sort and I'm not sure what glue to use. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 13 10:52:26 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 16:52:26 +0000 Subject: DECtape madness In-Reply-To: <0bfcd9b0-3473-7f3e-aa47-c30e3b281053@froghouse.org> References: <20180113142058.2BD1518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <0bfcd9b0-3473-7f3e-aa47-c30e3b281053@froghouse.org> Message-ID: So, where were all these people when I was trying to clean out my old house a couple years ago? I threw out piles of tapes of various formats because I couldn't find anyone to take them for postage. I also threw out piles of other stuff (some of it old DEC and Sun kit) after offering it on eBay and getting zero bids. The only thing I have successfully sold thru eBay was an antique claw-foot bathtub. I have stuff now that will likely go in the trash because I really can't affords the space to be a storage locker any more. bill ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of David Bridgham via cctalk Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2018 9:34 AM To: Noel Chiappa via cctalk Subject: Re: DECtape madness > So why are reels of DECtape selling for unbelievable prices on eBait? See, > e.g. here: I had those on my watch-list and just shake my head at the astonishing prices for the things. I've wondered if you might not make DECtape tape from 3/4" video tape. I know that DECtape has mylar on both sides but what if you somehow glued two strips of video tape together with the mylar backing on the outside. Probably want to build a jig of some sort and I'm not sure what glue to use. From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 13 11:04:31 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 11:04:31 -0600 Subject: DECtape madness In-Reply-To: <0bfcd9b0-3473-7f3e-aa47-c30e3b281053@froghouse.org> References: <20180113142058.2BD1518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0bfcd9b0-3473-7f3e-aa47-c30e3b281053@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <5A5A3C1F.4040305@pico-systems.com> On 01/13/2018 08:34 AM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: >> So why are reels of DECtape selling for unbelievable prices on eBait? See, >> e.g. here: > I had those on my watch-list and just shake my head at the astonishing > prices for the things. > > I've wondered if you might not make DECtape tape from 3/4" video tape. > I know that DECtape has mylar on both sides but what if you somehow > glued two strips of video tape together with the mylar backing on the > outside. Probably want to build a jig of some sort and I'm not sure > what glue to use. > > At Washington University, we bought 12" reels of 3/4" instrumentation tape and made DECtapes out of them. The tapes were too thin, and if you left them sit too long, they would get print-through and start to have trouble. As long as you used them every couple weeks, they would get rewound and you would not have a problem. I don't know what you are talking about with Mylar on both sides. They were conventional magnetic tape, a clear mylar film with oxide applied to one side. They were definitely made with a thicker Mylar layer than many magnetic tapes of the day, possibly to solve the print-through issue, but maybe also to prevent crimping of the tape on the pack. I think the oxide formula had a more square-loop hysteresis curve than analog tapes, which contributed to our problem. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 13 11:28:10 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 09:28:10 -0800 Subject: DECtape madness In-Reply-To: <5A5A3C1F.4040305@pico-systems.com> References: <20180113142058.2BD1518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0bfcd9b0-3473-7f3e-aa47-c30e3b281053@froghouse.org> <5A5A3C1F.4040305@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 1/13/18 9:04 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > I don't know what you are talking about with Mylar on both sides. They were conventional magnetic tape, a clear mylar > film with oxide applied to one side. the actual spec is here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/3M_DECtape_Spec_Nov66.pdf From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sat Jan 13 12:08:42 2018 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 13:08:42 -0500 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown Message-ID: I wrote about Spectre and Meltdown recently: INTEL took its time to inform the world! Did it inform the world back in earlier days about potential flaws? Not to blame INTEL only: What about Zilog, etc.? Or did pre-Internet era protect us computer-classic users? What about running emulation software as I?ve been doing with ADAM? Happy computing! Murray J From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sat Jan 13 12:13:26 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 10:13:26 -0800 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014e01d38c9a$35515050$9ff3f0f0$@net> > I wrote about Spectre and Meltdown recently: INTEL took its time to > inform the world! Did it inform the world back in earlier days about > potential flaws? Not to blame INTEL only: What about Zilog, etc.? Or Yes, of course it did. The famous Pentium FDIV bug comes immediately to mind. Of course pre-internet days and everything being online all the time security was a whole lot easier. If you could keep someone out of the building your data was secure. Now a day all it takes is a bad JS on a site to compromise you... -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sat Jan 13 12:15:30 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 10:15:30 -0800 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: <20180113122009.F191C18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180113122009.F191C18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <014f01d38c9a$7f642c80$7e2c8580$@net> > I'm going to disagree with Al, though - I don't think it's going to go > for that much, it's 'local pickup only'. That's going to severely limit > the bidder pool. For us non DEC aficionados why is there potential for the system to go for insane amounts of money? Does it have some rare piece of HW? Is it the providence? -Ali From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Jan 13 12:22:49 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 18:22:49 -0000 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07c201d38c9b$851f0ae0$8f5d20a0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Murray > McCullough via cctalk > Sent: 13 January 2018 18:09 > To: cctalk > Subject: Spectre & Meltdown > > I wrote about Spectre and Meltdown recently: INTEL took its time to inform > the world! Did it inform the world back in earlier days about potential flaws? > Not to blame INTEL only: What about Zilog, etc.? Or did pre-Internet era > protect us computer-classic users? What about running emulation software > as I?ve been doing with ADAM? It delayed telling the world to allow time for OS providers to apply fixes. This is now standard and the delays are defined... http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/intel-fixing-security-vulnerability-chips-52122993 but it looks like in this case it leaked early. Similar bugs affect ARM, AMD and PowerPC but nothing from them either. IBM won't tell the world (it will tell customers, but I am not a customer) if and how it affects Z. > > > > Happy computing! > > > > Murray J Dave From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 13 12:25:06 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 13:25:06 -0500 Subject: DECtape madness In-Reply-To: References: <20180113142058.2BD1518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0bfcd9b0-3473-7f3e-aa47-c30e3b281053@froghouse.org> <5A5A3C1F.4040305@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <2E0AD441-10EB-4CB3-9EA4-3DD11B6B0FF2@comcast.net> > On Jan 13, 2018, at 12:28 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 1/13/18 9:04 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> I don't know what you are talking about with Mylar on both sides. They were conventional magnetic tape, a clear mylar >> film with oxide applied to one side. > > the actual spec is here: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/3M_DECtape_Spec_Nov66.pdf And that spec is quite clear, "protective overlay". This is the reason for the legendary robustness of DECtape media. It was possible to wear it out, but only if you used it -- as done at Lawrence University for example -- as permanently mounted public file storage so it was read/written many times per hour for months on end. When used as private removable storage it was pretty much invulnerable. Stories of DECtapes being laundered by accident and still working fine afterwards have been around for a long time. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 13 12:30:32 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 13:30:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: GT-40 etc. Message-ID: <20180113183032.66F3218C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ali > why is there potential for the system to go for insane amounts of money? I'm going to guess that Al had the GT40 in mind. (I wonder if that was named after the car, BTW?) I don't see anything else there that's _that_ desirable - the Diablo (aka RK02/RK03) is pretty rare, and that exposed backplane above it _might_ be an RK11-C, but I don't think either of them is _that_ desirable. Although maybe he was just thinking of the whole package... Those plus the RK05, the PDP-8, two complete H960's - it adds up... Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 13 12:31:05 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 13:31:05 -0500 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5CFBBA17-E89C-4492-A633-4034E6353035@comcast.net> > On Jan 13, 2018, at 1:08 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > I wrote about Spectre and Meltdown recently: INTEL took its time to inform > the world! Of course, and for good reason. The current practice has been carefully crafted by the consensus of security vulnerability workers. That is: when a vulnerability is discovered, the responsible party is notified confidentially and given a reasonable amount of time to produce a fix before the issue is announced publicly. There's a big incentive for that response to happen and typically it does. If the issue is ignored, the announcement happens anyway along with public shaming of the part who didn't bother to respond. With this approach, a fix can often be released concurrently with the disclosure of the issue, which dramatically reduces the oppportunity for criminals to take advantage of the problem. This isn't a case of being nice to Intel; it's an attempt to benefit Intel's customers. If you read the Meltdown and Spectre papers (by the researchers who discovered the problem, not the news rags reporting on it) you'll see this policy mentioned in passing. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 13 12:36:41 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 13:36:41 -0500 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <07c201d38c9b$851f0ae0$8f5d20a0$@gmail.com> References: <07c201d38c9b$851f0ae0$8f5d20a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52029D61-B2F1-4870-B2B0-35AE4615507D@comcast.net> > On Jan 13, 2018, at 1:22 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > ... > It delayed telling the world to allow time for OS providers to apply fixes. This is now standard and the delays are defined... > > http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/intel-fixing-security-vulnerability-chips-52122993 > > but it looks like in this case it leaked early. Similar bugs affect ARM, AMD and PowerPC but nothing from them either. IBM won't tell the world (it will tell customers, but I am not a customer) if and how it affects Z. There are two bugs that are largely unrelated other than the fact they both start from speculative execution. One is "Meltdown" which is specific to Intel as far as is known. The other is "Spectre" which is a pretty much unavoidable side effect of the existence of speculative execution and appears to apply to multiple architectures. There may be variations; I assume some designs have much shorter speculation pipelines than others and if so would be less affected. Meltdown has a software workaround (it could also be fixed in future chips by changing how speculative loads work, to match what other companies did). Spectre needs software fixes, possibly along with microcode changes (for machines that have such a thing). You're likely to hear more when the fixes are available; it would not make sense to have much discussion before then for the reason you mentioned at the top. paul From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Jan 13 12:54:32 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 10:54:32 -0800 Subject: DECtape madness In-Reply-To: References: <20180113142058.2BD1518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0bfcd9b0-3473-7f3e-aa47-c30e3b281053@froghouse.org> Message-ID: > On Jan 13, 2018, at 08:52, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > So, where were all these people when I was trying to clean out > my old house a couple years ago? I threw out piles of tapes of > various formats because I couldn't find anyone to take them for > postage. I'm sorry that I missed that event, Bill! I'd be happy to add a DECtape drive and a handful of usable DECtapes to my PDP-8/M project, but I don't want that dearly enough to pay the going eBay prices for that kind of gear at this time. Not that I can really complain, as I'm fortunate to have lots of other cool stuff running the range from free gifts to expensive purchases; I just haven't been at the right node of place + time + checking account balance to have acquired DECtape family gear yet, and I was born just a bit too late to have experienced it in college or the workplace. I sure wish that I would have anticipated that I'd become interested in retrocomputing in the 201x decade, so I wouldn't have gotten rid of a few specific items over the years that I now wish I still had, and I could have kept my eyes open for other items that I might have acquired cheap or free at the moment that interest in them was at a minimum. Naturally, there's plenty of stuff in recent years that I have considered to be uninteresting junk to be discarded. I wonder if I'll regret having junked it in another decade or three, or if my sense of nostalgia will remain rooted to my younger years and earlier? From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jan 13 13:20:47 2018 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 11:20:47 -0800 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: <20180113183032.66F3218C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180113183032.66F3218C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9CA544FA-E29A-47CB-8DAE-B0DC2C311B87@fritzm.org> On Jan 13, 2018, at 10:30 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > that exposed backplane above it _might_ be an RK11-C... Definitely an RK11-C ? having recently restored one in my 11/45, I can see the flying components on the backplane here are in just the right places. And it would make sense with the diablo and the RK05 in there. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Jan 13 14:36:17 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 12:36:17 -0800 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: <014f01d38c9a$7f642c80$7e2c8580$@net> References: <20180113122009.F191C18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <014f01d38c9a$7f642c80$7e2c8580$@net> Message-ID: <8bc2f289-32d6-3719-7d80-fac4d434f25e@jwsss.com> On 1/13/2018 10:15 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> I'm going to disagree with Al, though - I don't think it's going to go >> for that much, it's 'local pickup only'. That's going to severely limit >> the bidder pool. > For us non DEC aficionados why is there potential for the system to go for > insane amounts of money? Does it have some rare piece of HW? Is it the > providence? > > -Ali There was a current or former list member (I think) with a functional GT-40 listed for $50,000 or so last year.? I don't know if it was sold, or withdrawn.? One lit up as this one was would be pretty valuable. It has the potential to go for that.? The components at current states of scarcity and the condition of this system make it look like it should go for a lot. Depending on the circumstances of this system I'd have hired an auction house to sell this off.? Not sure if the museums have been approached and passed on it.? CHM I don't think can take anything, not sure about LCM.? Maybe Dave Mcguires operation in Pittsburg can collect it.?? Listing it at a $1000 no reserve auction on ebay will take it a catch as catch can as you say as far as maximum buyer. It may have to move or face destruction, limiting the seller's options. I'd hate to see it not be fully exploited.?? Breaking it up will be a shame. It has already made a journey from the west coast, not sure how much it was assembled by the current owner.? It might only be a freight problem. And breaking it up into an 8 system and the GT40 hopefully will be done correctly if it is done. thanks Jim From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Jan 13 14:43:32 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 12:43:32 -0800 Subject: DECtape madness In-Reply-To: <20180113142058.2BD1518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180113142058.2BD1518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <96f71a6b-5f81-50bf-f528-3fc89fc816af@jwsss.com> On 1/13/2018 6:20 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So why are reels of DECtape selling for unbelievable prices on eBait? The ones in the post are from Bill Donzelli.? I'd imagine he's happy.? I looked at acquiring another one, but they went way high as you pointed out.? My friend with some of the TU-55 and TU-56's has several boxes and said not to bother, but I figured what the heck. Bill didn't sell the 4 piece one.? I bought a single item last year for $5 bucks or so plus shipping.? I'm not sure why these have gone so high. We are talking to a local fellow here in Los Angeles who is in the business of renting out a studio with ancient tape drives for production as needed and he has contact with a couple of guys who may be able to fab up heads.? We are interested in exploring that if it is feasible to have replacements made.? They currently make heads for the audio units there and could possibly make heads to any spec that is available. I'm mainly asking around because it seems there are a lot of options for moving tape now days.? Media is scarce, but not unavailable. And unless you have NOS replacement heads that is one stopper for using original media with system.? I probably won't pursue it, but will at least know how hard the head problem is. Thanks Jim From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jan 13 14:51:31 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 13:51:31 -0700 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <07c201d38c9b$851f0ae0$8f5d20a0$@gmail.com> References: <07c201d38c9b$851f0ae0$8f5d20a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 13, 2018 11:22 AM, "Dave Wade via cctalk" wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Murray > McCullough via cctalk > Sent: 13 January 2018 18:09 > To: cctalk > Subject: Spectre & Meltdown > > I wrote about Spectre and Meltdown recently: INTEL took its time to inform > the world! Did it inform the world back in earlier days about potential flaws? > Not to blame INTEL only: What about Zilog, etc.? Or did pre-Internet era > protect us computer-classic users? What about running emulation software > as I?ve been doing with ADAM? It delayed telling the world to allow time for OS providers to apply fixes. This is now standard and the delays are defined... http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/intel- fixing-security-vulnerability-chips-52122993 Linux, Windows and Mac got notified early November. FreeBSD just before Christmas with no time to cope. All other BSDs and OpenSolaris found out on release :(. But this embargo was super long. Intel found out in June... Warner but it looks like in this case it leaked early. Similar bugs affect ARM, AMD and PowerPC but nothing from them either. IBM won't tell the world (it will tell customers, but I am not a customer) if and how it affects Z. > > > > Happy computing! > > > > Murray J Dave From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jan 13 14:56:43 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 13:56:43 -0700 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <52029D61-B2F1-4870-B2B0-35AE4615507D@comcast.net> References: <07c201d38c9b$851f0ae0$8f5d20a0$@gmail.com> <52029D61-B2F1-4870-B2B0-35AE4615507D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jan 13, 2018 11:36 AM, "Paul Koning via cctalk" wrote: > On Jan 13, 2018, at 1:22 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > ... > It delayed telling the world to allow time for OS providers to apply fixes. This is now standard and the delays are defined... > > http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/intel- fixing-security-vulnerability-chips-52122993 > > but it looks like in this case it leaked early. Similar bugs affect ARM, AMD and PowerPC but nothing from them either. IBM won't tell the world (it will tell customers, but I am not a customer) if and how it affects Z. There are two bugs that are largely unrelated other than the fact they both start from speculative execution. One is "Meltdown" which is specific to Intel as far as is known. The other is "Spectre" which is a pretty much unavoidable side effect of the existence of speculative execution and appears to apply to multiple architectures. There may be variations; I assume some designs have much shorter speculation pipelines than others and if so would be less affected. Meltdown has a software workaround (it could also be fixed in future chips by changing how speculative loads work, to match what other companies did). Sorta. A 10% performance hit and tthe workaround is extensive. So it's forcing everyone to eat a shit sandwich to work around it. Spectre needs software fixes, possibly along with microcode changes (for machines that have such a thing). You're likely to hear more when the fixes are available; it would not make sense to have much discussion before then for the reason you mentioned at the top. Spectre for Intel requires microcode changes and OS level changes to cope, and changes to the compiler for retpoline support. The os guys need to talk about their piece a lot, so it needs disclosure as well... it's a smaller shit sandwich in terms of performance hit... Warner From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 13 15:09:16 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 16:09:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: GT-40 etc. Message-ID: <20180113210916.CDF4C18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > Definitely an RK11-C Ah; the dual-wide plug-in connector soldered onto the back kind of threw me a bit! > And it would make sense with the diablo and the RK05 in there. Right, but I wonder if the RK05 is on the same controller as the Diablo, or if the PDP-8 has an RK controller, too. Noel From shadoooo at gmail.com Sat Jan 13 16:29:35 2018 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 23:29:35 +0100 Subject: WTB: 1/2" 6250 CPI tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I'm searching a source of good tape for a TU80 and a TU81 I have. I acquired some media from eBay, but all of that suffers of sticky problem and is unusable. Anybody has some to sell, or for give an advice of a seller of proven good tape? I wish prefer a seller in EU or UK, but even overseas could be considered, if I don't find a nearer solution. Thanks Andrea From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Jan 13 16:56:46 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 14:56:46 -0800 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: <20180113210916.CDF4C18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180113210916.CDF4C18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: That one is going to go for an insane amount of money: https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-APPLE-LISA-1-TWIGGY-COMPUTER-COMPLETE-AND-WORKING-with-Video/182999855120?_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131227121020%26meid%3D90df29e646c747feb30e0166b15876a4%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D232628720694&_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982 Marc > On Jan 13, 2018, at 1:09 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Fritz Mueller > Definitely an RK11-C Ah; the dual-wide plug-in connector soldered onto the back kind of threw me a bit! > And it would make sense with the diablo and the RK05 in there. Right, but I wonder if the RK05 is on the same controller as the Diablo, or if the PDP-8 has an RK controller, too. Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 13 17:24:31 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 15:24:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jan 2018, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > I wrote about Spectre and Meltdown recently: INTEL took its time to inform > the world! Did it inform the world back in earlier days about potential > flaws? Not to blame INTEL only: What about Zilog, etc.? Or did pre-Internet > era protect us computer-classic users? What about running emulation > software as I???ve been doing with ADAM? > Happy computing! Few emulations are exact enough to duplicate all bugs. Q: Should an emulator do an exact imitation, or should it work the way that it is s'posed to? (behavior? or specs?) Pre-internet protected against most web based malware. But, there are instances of virus software ever since people exchanged files and disks. (I'm unaware of any punch-card attacks, but trojans were possible when people used prior subroutines) Most prevalent were boot-sector virus attacks and executable file virus attacks. As software became too eager to help provide dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish, harmful macros in "productivity software" macro capabilities also started to surface. Internet made it much easier to acquire a trojan that would mess you up. Although reduction in sneaker-net has virtually eliminated boot-sector spread. How fast SHOULD the public response be? If they become aware of that kind of flaw, and can delay public knowledge until they have patches, they significantly reduce the risk of actual instances of malware using the exploits. Note: AFAIK, no examples of actual use of Spectre nor Meltdown have yet been encountered. If Microsoft had been in less of a rush, would they still have shipped patches that gave a BSOD with AMD processors? After public announcement, there ARE people actively working on developing malware using it. Similarly, after the Michelangelo Virus media panic, one of the variants later encountered was a fairly obvious "wannabe" consisting of "Stoned" patched to behave like the publicized Michelangelo behavior. The "thousands or millions of computers will be destroyed" was bogus. (BTW, the name "Michelangelo" was based on looking at a calendar to see what was special about March 6. If McAfee had had a Texas calendar, instead of a KQED (PBS) one, then it would have been named "Alamo") Intel made some mistakes in handling the FDIV bug. First, they made the assumption that the bug would be amazingly rarely encountered due to their calculations of probability of randomly hitting "winning" combinations of numerator and denominator, but failed to allow for any of the "winning" numbers happening to be more commonly used. THEN, they offered replacements to anybody who could PROVE that it actually affected their use of the machine. A more appropriate response would have been, "We WILL replace all affected processors! BUT, there aren't enough in stock right now to handle all immediately, so we will START by replacing those for all who can prove that they are affected, and then get to all others as we can manufacture more suitable replacements." (Perhaps the majority of people would have already replaced their machine before their turn came around! What is it? "a new machine every 18 months"?) Many of the general public had been led to believe that it would produce completely WRONG results, rather than the LOW ORDER bits of the mantissa being incorrect. No, it was not capable of "causing the wrong amount of sales tax to be charged!" From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Jan 13 18:18:54 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 00:18:54 +0000 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 13, 2018, at 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Although reduction in sneaker-net has virtually eliminated boot-sector spread. I never made that connection before! Glad you toed me. From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 13 18:32:23 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 18:32:23 -0600 Subject: DECtape madness In-Reply-To: References: <20180113142058.2BD1518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0bfcd9b0-3473-7f3e-aa47-c30e3b281053@froghouse.org> <5A5A3C1F.4040305@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5A5AA517.3020005@pico-systems.com> On 01/13/2018 11:28 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/13/18 9:04 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> I don't know what you are talking about with Mylar on both sides. They were conventional magnetic tape, a clear mylar >> film with oxide applied to one side. > the actual spec is here: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/3M_DECtape_Spec_Nov66.pdf > > Ah, looks like a 40 MICRO-Inch protective coating. Certainly not a couple mils of Mylar on both sides of the Oxide. Jon From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Jan 13 18:38:52 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 16:38:52 -0800 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/13/2018 3:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > (I'm unaware of any punch-card attacks, but trojans were possible when > people used prior subroutines) When I was using cards with our campus 360/50 MVT system and you could submit probably anything, a friend in EE (we were squatters in the CS area) had worked a summer job and had a really nice program they'd ran which now days would be called a text based football game. All one had to do was stick a job card in front of a deck, and we submitted our own? jobs via a 2501 which was in the hall outside the computer room.? Users loaded and fed their own cards, so there was no restriction on when the job ran. He decided to get a listing and figured if he stuck a job card in front if it and a couple of DD statements the job would blow up and he'd get a listing. All of the I/O was with WTO and WTOR.? The operator that afternoon quickly discovered that WTOs were not disabled by the sysgen, and worse, there was only the single 1050 console, so the only way to get thru the job and get other things running was to play a game. And even worse, if he took too long, a fun feature of MVT and not corrected in MVS was if a console channel went unavailable for too long, the system would crash.? Luckily the game would print out a line, and a blob of console messages would come out then ask for another move. Took 10 minutes to lose a game. The system administrators regenerated the system to add privilege and authorization to jobs using WTOR which they'd missed. We found other fun holes like that in MVT. When we were put over to a VS/1 system via TSO terminals, a console message monitor, and a password snarfing program was developed and ran quite a lot via remote access (system and terminals were in different cities). That was all OS of course, and some of it was something that could be disabled by sysgen options.? The password snarfing was not. thanks Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 13 19:35:16 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 17:35:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Although reduction in sneaker-net has virtually eliminated boot-sector >> spread. On Sun, 14 Jan 2018, Tapley, Mark wrote: > I never made that connection before! Glad you toed me. There had already been some reduction. The first PCs with a hard disk would always attempt to boot from floppy first. Once it was possible to rearrange the boot sequence to try the hard disk first, we had a substantial reduction in boot sector virus incidents. MOST boot sector virus infections on hard disks could be trivially solved by the [undocumented at that time] /MBR option of FDISK.COM The "Alameda" Virus was first discovered [and thoroughly analyzed] in our ("Merritt College") lab. (We had a good idea of who might have been the author) One of the student workers at our sister college, "College Of Alameda", who was brother of a guy who wrote a book on the subject, asked nicely for naming rights. A few years later, the administration informed me that they had waived the computer literacy requirement for a student transferring to Yale. A few months later, Yale "discovered" it, and named it "Yale Virus". From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 13 19:40:15 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 17:40:15 -0800 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507ef7d6-33c0-fc63-0e89-50792f38598d@sydex.com> On 1/13/2018 3:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > (I'm unaware of any punch-card attacks, but trojans were possible when > people used prior subroutines). Depends on what you mean "attack". CDC 6000 SCOPE had two PP programs (which could be invoked via user control card). One was "RPV"--reprieve job. The purpose was to recover control after a program error so that appropriate cleanup by the user could be performed. It was effective for *any* error, including operator killing the job. The other was "RSJ", reschedule job. Usually, this was used when a device or resource wasn't available--basically, it would put a job back into the input queue and terminate the caller. Unless, of course, the caller had included an RPV call also, in which case it was something like the sorcerer's apprentice--you'd get *two* copies of the job, which would then spawn 4 more copies, etc. Operator drop just exacerbated the situation, and eventually, the input queue would be full of the malicious job and all available PPUs would be allocated to doing nothing but RSJs and RPVs. The only way out of the situation was to deadstart the system without recovering the input queue. After a couple of incidents of this, a memo came down from on high saying that anyone attempting this gambit would be subject to discipline and/or termination. I think someone also did an EDITLIB and renamed both RPV and RSJ and kept the new names on a "need to know" basis. -------------- Another gambit I recall made use of a new I/O call in SCOPE 3.4, called "Read List String". Basically, the point of it was to streamline loader (linkage editor) operation by presenting CIO and, by extension, the disk stack processor overlay, 1SP with a list of disk addresses and lengths to be read. 1SP would dutifully go through the list, advancing its list pointer (so that the caller could keep track of progress). It was very effective and bypassed a lot of ancillary PP code. Some enterprising fellow wondered what might happen, if his CP program kept track of the READLS progress and kept backing the pointer up every time it advanced. Since 1SP attempted to complete an entire I/O request before terminating, it never terminated and kept the disk busy basically forever. That one was fixed by checking the user's control point area for the "DROP" flag--something that should have been done from the outset. ----------------------- All of this reminds me of a trick that I witnessed on a Model 40 running DOS/360. Some guy wrote a chained CCW set with a TIC back to the beginning of the list of CCBs that rang the bell on the 1052 operator's console and locked the keyboard. The din panicked at least one operator who pulled the "Emergency Stop" big red button. But then DOS/360 was easy to fool--it wasn't even much of a challenge. Good times... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 13 20:37:42 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 18:37:42 -0800 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <507ef7d6-33c0-fc63-0e89-50792f38598d@sydex.com> References: <507ef7d6-33c0-fc63-0e89-50792f38598d@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 01/13/2018 05:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > All of this reminds me of a trick that I witnessed on a Model 40 running > DOS/360. Some guy wrote a chained CCW set with a TIC back to the > beginning of the list of CCBs that rang the bell on the 1052 operator's > console and locked the keyboard. The din panicked at least one > operator who pulled the "Emergency Stop" big red button. > Typo--not "CCB" but "CCW". --Chuck From microtechdart at gmail.com Sat Jan 13 21:02:42 2018 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 19:02:42 -0800 Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation Message-ID: I'm just wondering if anybody here did (or knows who) bought this one. http://ebay.to/2DaRr13 Even though these were all manufactured by Convergent Technologies, this one is actually BRANDED by Convergent, as their model S/50. And there's software included here. I tried to buy myself, but just missed it. I'd really like to connect with the buyer here, to see if we can do a more expansive documentation project on this machine, as well as an archival of the software that was included. As far as I know, this is the only Convergent S/50 I've ever seen that has survived, especially with all the CONVERGENT software and manuals (vs the AT&T ones)! Thanks! -AJ http://MightyFrame.com From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 13 21:06:23 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 03:06:23 +0000 Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Notice it has an AT&T mouse!! bill ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of AJ Palmgren via cctalk Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2018 10:02 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation I'm just wondering if anybody here did (or knows who) bought this one. http://ebay.to/2DaRr13 Even though these were all manufactured by Convergent Technologies, this one is actually BRANDED by Convergent, as their model S/50. And there's software included here. I tried to buy myself, but just missed it. I'd really like to connect with the buyer here, to see if we can do a more expansive documentation project on this machine, as well as an archival of the software that was included. As far as I know, this is the only Convergent S/50 I've ever seen that has survived, especially with all the CONVERGENT software and manuals (vs the AT&T ones)! Thanks! -AJ http://MightyFrame.com From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 13 21:28:44 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 19:28:44 -0800 Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95345273-e215-4608-7ce9-be9a28c1a4d7@bitsavers.org> On 1/13/18 7:06 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > I'm just wondering if anybody here did (or knows who) bought this one. no, but I bought his miniframe, which is very clean. I used my mfm emulator to image the disks, I haven't had time yet to see what condition the cartridge tapes are in or to compare the eproms with what has already been dumped he is local, and worked at convergent. From microtechdart at gmail.com Sat Jan 13 22:31:09 2018 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 20:31:09 -0800 Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation In-Reply-To: <95345273-e215-4608-7ce9-be9a28c1a4d7@bitsavers.org> References: <95345273-e215-4608-7ce9-be9a28c1a4d7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Bill, you're talking about the seller, yes? That's fantastic! I totally missed the MiniFrame auction altogether. A completed listings lookup found it: http://ebay.to/2DwNamo I'm VERY glad that you have that! Previous to you mentioning this, I've only been aware of one MiniFrame (I've confirmed) in existence, and it looks like you have yet another, even nicer one! My page for my (now previous) MiniFrame archive: http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2017/08/convergent-technologies-miniframe-found.html I'll contact you directly for more details on this. Fantastic! On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 7:28 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/13/18 7:06 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > I'm just wondering if anybody here did (or knows who) bought this one. > > no, but I bought his miniframe, which is very clean. > > I used my mfm emulator to image the disks, I haven't had time yet to see > what condition > the cartridge tapes are in or to compare the eproms with what has already > been dumped > > he is local, and worked at convergent. > > > > -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jan 13 23:01:56 2018 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 21:01:56 -0800 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: <20180113210916.CDF4C18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180113210916.CDF4C18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <24207C91-2AD9-4E4D-862A-AD0B8D5274FB@fritzm.org> On Jan 13, 2018, at 1:09 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Ah; the dual-wide plug-in connector soldered onto the back kind of threw me a > bit! Yeah it?s a bit weird, but mine has that too. It?s a pass-through, and It turns out, handily, that that you can plug in a KM11 right there for troubleshooting. > ...I wonder if the RK05 is on the same controller as the Diablo, or if the PDP-8 has an RK controller, too. Oh right, duh ? it?s an 8! I guess the RK11 is just there with the diablo for the GT40? From rtomek at ceti.pl Sat Jan 13 23:34:25 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 06:34:25 +0100 Subject: Gallery online: A collection of Soviet control rooms pictures Message-ID: <20180114053424.GA8931@tau1.ceti.pl> What the subject says. For control & analog aficionados. http://blog.presentandcorrect.com/27986-2 source: https://lobste.rs/s/ziu1uu/collection_soviet_control_rooms -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Jan 14 00:58:06 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 00:58:06 -0600 Subject: Gallery online: A collection of Soviet control rooms pictures In-Reply-To: <20180114053424.GA8931@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20180114053424.GA8931@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: nice find On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 11:34 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > What the subject says. For control & analog aficionados. > > http://blog.presentandcorrect.com/27986-2 > > source: https://lobste.rs/s/ziu1uu/collection_soviet_control_rooms > > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** > From tsg at bonedaddy.net Sun Jan 14 10:26:08 2018 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 11:26:08 -0500 Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2dd9851b-164c-53ee-5572-5eebfeed0346@bonedaddy.net> Hi AJ (and list), I got that one. Todd On 1/13/2018 10:02 PM, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: > I'm just wondering if anybody here did (or knows who) bought this one. > > http://ebay.to/2DaRr13 > > Even though these were all manufactured by Convergent Technologies, this > one is actually BRANDED by Convergent, as their model S/50. > > And there's software included here. I tried to buy myself, but just missed > it. > > I'd really like to connect with the buyer here, to see if we can do a more > expansive documentation project on this machine, as well as an archival of > the software that was included. > > As far as I know, this is the only Convergent S/50 I've ever seen that has > survived, especially with all the CONVERGENT software and manuals (vs the > AT&T ones)! > > Thanks! > > -AJ > http://MightyFrame.com From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jan 14 12:38:25 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:38:25 -0600 Subject: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A5BA3A1.80400@pico-systems.com> On 01/13/2018 06:38 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > > And even worse, if he took too long, a fun feature of MVT > and not corrected in MVS was if a console channel went > unavailable for too long, the system would crash. Luckily > the game would print out a line, and a blob of console > messages would come out then ask for another move. > > Took 10 minutes to lose a game. > > The system administrators regenerated the system to add > privilege and authorization to jobs using WTOR which > they'd missed. > > We found other fun holes like that in MVT. > Yup, OS/360 had a number of holes wide enough to let 5 ocean liners through, abreast. My favorite was the stock exception handler for the SPIE (specify program interruption exit) allowed you to change a program from problem state to supervisor state. Nobody ever thought anybody would ever abuse such a thing. Jon From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Jan 14 14:16:22 2018 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 09:16:22 +1300 Subject: Even old accounting software needs love and rescuing from oblivion Message-ID: Hi folks, On the weekend I rescued some old software. It gave me an excuse to get my first micro out of its box and stretch its legs. Accounting packages hardly set the world alight but being a Dick Smith release for the System 80, it does have its place in Australasian computer history. Anyway, if anyone is interested, here is the URL. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-01-12-rescuing-more-dick-smith-software.htm Terry (Tez) From microtechdart at gmail.com Sun Jan 14 20:05:55 2018 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 18:05:55 -0800 Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation In-Reply-To: <2dd9851b-164c-53ee-5572-5eebfeed0346@bonedaddy.net> References: <2dd9851b-164c-53ee-5572-5eebfeed0346@bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: Todd, thanks so much for sharing, and I'm thrilled to know that a member of this community is where it's going. May I ask, what are your plans for archival of the included disks and manuals, if any? I'd also be quite curious to see if there are any internal circuit differences between that machine and a "regular AT&T 3b1. If you ever open it up, I'd love to see/hear about that. I've put a fair amount of effort into preserving Convergent-branded OS and programs, particularly from this era, solely out of personal interest. Mostly for the MightyFrame, but my journey had to start with the AT&T UNIX PC first, as that had the larger "still available" user group for learning & support before I could revers-engineer how to get a MightyFrame to boot. Anyway, I would really love to see those software/manual sets be preserved in a bitsavers.org / archive.org fashion, and if there is anything that I might be able to do to assist in that effort, I'd love to volunteer. My site for preserving this area of Convergent software and equipment is at http://MightyFrame.com Please let me know how I might help, in any way. Thanks so much! -AJ On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Todd Goodman wrote: > Hi AJ (and list), > > I got that one. > > Todd > > > On 1/13/2018 10:02 PM, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: > >> I'm just wondering if anybody here did (or knows who) bought this one. >> >> http://ebay.to/2DaRr13 >> >> Even though these were all manufactured by Convergent Technologies, this >> one is actually BRANDED by Convergent, as their model S/50. >> >> And there's software included here. I tried to buy myself, but just missed >> it. >> >> I'd really like to connect with the buyer here, to see if we can do a more >> expansive documentation project on this machine, as well as an archival of >> the software that was included. >> >> As far as I know, this is the only Convergent S/50 I've ever seen that has >> survived, especially with all the CONVERGENT software and manuals (vs the >> AT&T ones)! >> >> Thanks! >> >> -AJ >> http://MightyFrame.com >> > > -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ From microtechdart at gmail.com Sun Jan 14 21:06:48 2018 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 19:06:48 -0800 Subject: Which Operating System for my DCC-116 E / Entrex 480 / Nixdorf 620 / Data General Nova 1200 clone ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dominique, Just checking in with you on this, and to thank you for posting your interest in this system here. Do you have any updates, or perhaps new videos of it operating? Thank you! -AJ On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi all > > I start here another topic concerning my research about a new Operating > System for my freshly restored DCC-116 E. > > http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/second_boot/04.jpg > http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/second_boot/02.jpg > > I originally intended to install RDOS on my machine but it seems very > difficult to find the files needed to make a system installation tape. > > I do not know well the subject yet, I don't found clear information about > the compatibility of my clone with the original RDOS from Data General. > Thus, before trying the impossible, I would like to know if another OS are > available for my machine ? > > I would like to be able to do basic things like : > > - Be able to manage my devices, copy files from tape to disk or vice versa. > - Be able to list directories, create subdirectories. > - Write and read text files that I could send on my drum printer. > - Have some communication software, tty, rs-232 (for the day I find a comm > board). > - Some diagnostic tools to check core memory, disk, tapes. > - Being able to write in a simple programming language such as BASIC would > be great. > - Be able to use simultaneously more than one Entrex terminal. > - Maybe a database software ... ? > > Of course I am also interested in anything that goes beyond that. I also > have more bizarre projects with this machine like generating algorithms to > trace small animations on an analog oscilloscope and ... well, another > chapter ;-) > > > To recap, here the specifications of my system: > > Computer : D-116, clone of a DG Nova 1230 with 17 slots, also known as > "Entrex 480" and "Nixdorf 620" > Core memory : 64 kW > Terminal : ENTREX DATA/SCOPE > Disk Cartridge : Diablo Model 40 > Mag-tape : Pertec 8840A (800 bpi) > Line drum printer : Data Products model 2230 > > As the machine was distributed by Nixdorf, the identification of the tape > and disk controllers is a bit difficult, but I can take detailed pictures. > > Thanks a lot for your help ! > > Dominique > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Jan 15 03:57:40 2018 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 10:57:40 +0100 Subject: DECtape archeology. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180115095739.GD1424@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 11:22:53AM +0100, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > DIR .BIN 003 17-NOV-71 > > DTCOPY .BIN 006 17-NOV-71 > > D0AA .BIN 014 17-NOV-71 > > > What is DDP1-V001? Some early diagnostics monitor? The filesystem seems to > be DOS-11 as RT-11 FILEX is able to read the directory with /S As you probably already have thought, XXDP is the moniker for a group of diagnostic packages on various media. TCDP for DECtape media, RKDP for RK disk and so on. Don't know what the D in DDP1 would be.. D0AA seems to be a test suite for basic instruction tests on PDP-11: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/archive.pcjs.org/pubs/dec/pdp11/diags/MAINDEC-11-DZQAB-B-D_User_Reference_Manual_Oct73.pdf But you most likely already know this :) /P From lionelj at labyrinth.net.au Sat Jan 13 16:48:05 2018 From: lionelj at labyrinth.net.au (Lionel Johnson) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 09:48:05 +1100 Subject: SOT - Ultimate Classic Computing Geekdom In-Reply-To: <089601d383ac$a54d3370$efe79a50$@internode.on.net> References: <089601d383ac$a54d3370$efe79a50$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: On 2/01/2018 8:32 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > > > Hi folks - the family surprised me for Christmas by all contributing to some custom plates for my new car. > > > > This might tell you how well they know me. > > > > http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/274143f7eae640a16c276e89b953503d/ > > > > > > > > > > Kevin Parker > > P: 0418 815 527 > > > > > > Impressive plates, Kevin. Sorry i had to pass on the 5000 box, would have been great, but my wife had a stroke in August, now home , but fulltime job caring for her. No time for hobbies now. Lionel. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jan 15 06:01:21 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 13:01:21 +0100 (CET) Subject: SOT - Ultimate Classic Computing Geekdom In-Reply-To: References: <089601d383ac$a54d3370$efe79a50$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: ... and this is the reason why the "new" list mail system that alters the headers and puts the private from address into the Reply-To header is crap. Christian On Sun, 14 Jan 2018, Lionel Johnson wrote: > Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 09:48:05 +1100 > From: Lionel Johnson > Reply-To: Lionel Johnson , > "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > To: Kevin Parker > Subject: Re: SOT - Ultimate Classic Computing Geekdom > > On 2/01/2018 8:32 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hi folks - the family surprised me for Christmas by all contributing to >> some custom plates for my new car. >> >> >> This might tell you how well they know me. >> >> >> http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/274143f7eae640a16c276e89b953503d/ >> >> >> >> >> >> Kevin Parker >> >> P: 0418 815 527 >> >> >> >> > Impressive plates, Kevin. Sorry i had to pass on the 5000 box, would have > been great, but my wife had a stroke in August, now home , but fulltime job > caring for her. No time for hobbies now. > > Lionel. > > From dce at skynet.be Mon Jan 15 06:22:56 2018 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 13:22:56 +0100 Subject: Which Operating System for my DCC-116 E / Entrex 480 / Nixdorf 620 / Data General Nova 1200 clone ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7eae4b37-9c44-f522-e3e9-da70b63c7b6c@skynet.be> Hi everybody ! I captured very beautiful images in the idea to make a new video but I don't found the time to focus on that yet. There are a lot of changes in my small ?data center? ;-) Currently I gather all my big pieces in a single place, here my VAX 4000-505A joined the D-116?: http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/read_datacenter01.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/read_datacenter01b.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/read_datacenter02.jpg I'm currently populating a?third rack that will contain soon an IBM industrial PC, measurement tools (spectrum analyzer, oscilloscopes), and floppy drives of all generations (8 inches, 5 1/4, 3 1/2 ). The idea is be able to generate from these machines all sorts of old bootable media . http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/read_datacenter03.jpg I'm still looking for another Operating System, an RDOS version compatible with my machine (it should be compatible with Nova 1200, Nova 800 and possibly even Nova 2), according to Bruce Ray, the model of the disc cartridge controller (for the Diablo 44) is a determining factor concerning the possibility or not to be able to install RDOS on my system. But here, the references shown on the controller are those of Nixdorf, I do not know what kind of Data General controller this board is the equivalent. Here are the references visible on this board : 2456 00 MP-Kontroller D44an620 6393500215 2456 7 0 1577 R32-33 19.12.78-9 Some pictures : http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/D116_disk_controller_01.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/D116_disk_controller_02.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/D116_disk_controller_03.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/D116_disk_controller_04.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/D116_disk_controller_05.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/D116_disk_controller_06.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/D116_disk_controller_07.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/D116_disk_controller_08.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/D116_disk_controller_09.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/D116_disk_controller_10.jpg I should be really happy to install another Operating System for my dear DG Nova clone :-) Dominique On 15/01/2018 04:06, AJ Palmgren wrote: > Dominique, > > Just checking in with you on this, and to thank you for posting your > interest in this system here. > > Do you have any updates, or perhaps new videos of it operating? > > Thank you! > -AJ > > On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk > > wrote: > > Hi all > > I start here another topic concerning my research about a new > Operating System for my freshly restored DCC-116 E. > > http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/second_boot/04.jpg > > http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/second_boot/02.jpg > > > I originally intended to install RDOS on my machine but it seems > very difficult to find the files needed to make a system > installation tape. > > I do not know well the subject yet, I don't found clear > information about the compatibility of my clone with the original > RDOS from Data General. > Thus, before trying the impossible, I would like to know if > another OS are available for my machine ? > > I would like to be able to do basic things like : > > - Be able to manage my devices, copy files from tape to disk or > vice versa. > - Be able to list directories, create subdirectories. > - Write and read text files that I could send on my drum printer. > - Have some communication software, tty, rs-232 (for the day I > find a comm board). > - Some diagnostic tools to check core memory, disk, tapes. > - Being able to write in a simple programming language such as > BASIC would be great. > - Be able to use simultaneously more than one Entrex terminal. > - Maybe a database software ... ? > > Of course I am also interested in anything that goes beyond that. > I also have more bizarre projects with this machine like > generating algorithms to trace small animations on an analog > oscilloscope and ... well, another chapter ;-) > > > To recap, here the specifications of my system: > > Computer : D-116, clone of a DG Nova 1230 with 17 slots, also > known as "Entrex 480" and "Nixdorf 620" > Core memory : 64 kW > Terminal : ENTREX DATA/SCOPE > Disk Cartridge : Diablo Model 40 > Mag-tape : Pertec 8840A (800 bpi) > Line drum printer : Data Products model 2230 > > As the machine was distributed by Nixdorf, the identification of > the tape and disk controllers is a bit difficult, but I can take > detailed pictures. > > Thanks a lot for your help ! > > Dominique > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 15 08:16:03 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:16:03 +0000 Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation In-Reply-To: References: <2dd9851b-164c-53ee-5572-5eebfeed0346@bonedaddy.net>, Message-ID: Years ago, we used one of the Convergent machines. I recall playing rats on it. It had a green screen. It was a 8086 processor and had some Multibus slots in it. I recall the SA8000 hard disk. It would fail after 20 minutes or so. We sent is back to Shugart for warranty repair with a complete description of how it needed to run for some time before it failed. They sent it back still broken. I when to Shugart with the drive and found out that they never even looked at the return sheet they had me fill out. They just replaced the drive belt tested it for 2 minutes and sent it back. I couldn't wait for them to not fix it again. I bought a replacement transistor for the stepper drive and fixed it my self. We used them because of the bus slots on the back. I made a DC servo controller to run an XY table. I had an early version of fig Forth running on it to debug my hardware. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of AJ Palmgren via cctalk Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2018 6:05:55 PM To: Todd Goodman Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation Todd, thanks so much for sharing, and I'm thrilled to know that a member of this community is where it's going. May I ask, what are your plans for archival of the included disks and manuals, if any? I'd also be quite curious to see if there are any internal circuit differences between that machine and a "regular AT&T 3b1. If you ever open it up, I'd love to see/hear about that. I've put a fair amount of effort into preserving Convergent-branded OS and programs, particularly from this era, solely out of personal interest. Mostly for the MightyFrame, but my journey had to start with the AT&T UNIX PC first, as that had the larger "still available" user group for learning & support before I could revers-engineer how to get a MightyFrame to boot. Anyway, I would really love to see those software/manual sets be preserved in a bitsavers.org / archive.org fashion, and if there is anything that I might be able to do to assist in that effort, I'd love to volunteer. My site for preserving this area of Convergent software and equipment is at http://MightyFrame.com Please let me know how I might help, in any way. Thanks so much! -AJ On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Todd Goodman wrote: > Hi AJ (and list), > > I got that one. > > Todd > > > On 1/13/2018 10:02 PM, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: > >> I'm just wondering if anybody here did (or knows who) bought this one. >> >> http://ebay.to/2DaRr13 >> >> Even though these were all manufactured by Convergent Technologies, this >> one is actually BRANDED by Convergent, as their model S/50. >> >> And there's software included here. I tried to buy myself, but just missed >> it. >> >> I'd really like to connect with the buyer here, to see if we can do a more >> expansive documentation project on this machine, as well as an archival of >> the software that was included. >> >> As far as I know, this is the only Convergent S/50 I've ever seen that has >> survived, especially with all the CONVERGENT software and manuals (vs the >> AT&T ones)! >> >> Thanks! >> >> -AJ >> http://MightyFrame.com >> > > -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ From tsg at bonedaddy.net Mon Jan 15 08:31:51 2018 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 09:31:51 -0500 Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation In-Reply-To: References: <2dd9851b-164c-53ee-5572-5eebfeed0346@bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <1bc9a043-ef3f-8af9-7b7d-a93e3aa58019@bonedaddy.net> Hi AJ, Thank you, I've been looking for 3b1s and 3b2s for a while. I plan to eventually be able to image the disks and scan the documentation. It will however take a while to get to that point. I'm open to loaning media and manuals to someone who can get that done quicker (I'm in southern NH.) I'm also happy to open up the machine and do what I can to help identify differences though I don't have a "regular" 3b1 to compare against myself (I'd love one and any 3b2s I could get my hands on as well.) You or anyone else should please feel free to stay in contact with me either on list or off. Thank you! Todd On 1/14/2018 9:05 PM, AJ Palmgren wrote: > Todd, thanks so much for sharing, and I'm thrilled to know that a > member of this community is where it's going. > > May I ask, what are your plans for archival of the included disks and > manuals, if any? > > I'd also be quite curious to see if there are any internal circuit > differences between that machine and a "regular AT&T 3b1.? If you ever > open it up, I'd love to see/hear about that. > > I've put a fair amount of effort into preserving Convergent-branded OS > and programs, particularly from this era, solely out of personal > interest.? Mostly for the MightyFrame, but my journey had to start > with the AT&T UNIX PC first, as that had the larger "still available" > user group for learning & support before I could revers-engineer how > to get a MightyFrame to boot. > > Anyway, I would really love to see those software/manual sets be > preserved in a bitsavers.org / archive.org > fashion, and if there is anything that I might be > able to do to assist in that effort, I'd love to volunteer. > > My site for preserving this area of Convergent software and equipment > is at http://MightyFrame.com > > Please let me know how I might help, in any way. > > Thanks so much! > -AJ > > On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Todd Goodman > wrote: > > Hi AJ (and list), > > I got that one. > > Todd > > > On 1/13/2018 10:02 PM, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: > > I'm just wondering if anybody here did (or knows who) bought > this one. > > http://ebay.to/2DaRr13 > > Even though these were all manufactured by Convergent > Technologies, this > one is actually BRANDED by Convergent, as their model S/50. > > And there's software included here. I tried to buy myself, but > just missed > it. > > I'd really like to connect with the buyer here, to see if we > can do a more > expansive documentation project on this machine, as well as an > archival of > the software that was included. > > As far as I know, this is the only Convergent S/50 I've ever > seen that has > survived, especially with all the CONVERGENT software and > manuals (vs the > AT&T ones)! > > Thanks! > > -AJ > http://MightyFrame.com > > > > > > -- > > Thanks, > AJ Palmgren > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck > http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ > > From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Mon Jan 15 09:42:16 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 08:42:16 -0700 Subject: FS: Livingston Portmaster 2e Message-ID: This one is fully upgraded to 30 serial ports. Just shoot me an offer, I'll probably say yes Regards, Kevin From trash80 at internode.on.net Mon Jan 15 14:19:17 2018 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 07:19:17 +1100 Subject: Livingston Portmaster 2e In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <027f01d38e3e$222d3160$66879420$@internode.on.net> I was curious as to what this was so I Googled it. A couple appear on epay - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Livingston-PortMaster-2E-Communications-Server-/400327660103 Wow - not sure of that?s a realistic expectation of what they're worth or not. Kevin Parker P: 0418 815 527 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Bowling via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, 16 January 2018 02:42 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: FS: Livingston Portmaster 2e This one is fully upgraded to 30 serial ports. Just shoot me an offer, I'll probably say yes Regards, Kevin From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 14:54:26 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 12:54:26 -0800 Subject: Gallery online: A collection of Soviet control rooms pictures In-Reply-To: <20180114053424.GA8931@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20180114053424.GA8931@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <07C75AA9-8365-431F-ADE0-2E70B0AD538F@gmail.com> Quite impressive. Marc On Jan 13, 2018, at 9:34 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: What the subject says. For control & analog aficionados. http://blog.presentandcorrect.com/27986-2 source: https://lobste.rs/s/ziu1uu/collection_soviet_control_rooms -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From ethan at 757.org Mon Jan 15 15:08:14 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:08:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Livingston Portmaster 2e In-Reply-To: <027f01d38e3e$222d3160$66879420$@internode.on.net> References: <027f01d38e3e$222d3160$66879420$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: > I was curious as to what this was so I Googled it. > A couple appear on epay - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Livingston-PortMaster-2E-Communications-Server-/400327660103 > Wow - not sure of that?s a realistic expectation of what they're worth or not. I used to do quite a bit with Livisington Portmasters. They were used to allow dialup ISPs to function in the early days before modems went direct digital (T1/E1/PRI) by providing serial ports and it could terminate SLIP and PPP. You can also set it to up allow telnet (not ssh) to the unit and each tcp port # would pass thru to the serial port on the unit. So I had a few hooked to all the serial consoles of Sun and SGI boxes. Like a Cyclades. I still have a PM-2E which is the thinner version that needs special breakout cables from 50 or 68 pin scsi connectors to DB25. I have a number of the cables too, could use a home for them -- could bring it to VCF East if interest. Also, a friend recently reverse engineered the password reset function for these so it's possible to reset the password without paying on the other website. -- : Ethan O'Toole From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Jan 15 15:52:15 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 13:52:15 -0800 Subject: Livingston Portmaster 2e In-Reply-To: References: <027f01d38e3e$222d3160$66879420$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <00c401d38e4b$1cd1cfc0$56756f40$@net> > You can also set it to up allow telnet (not ssh) to the unit and each > tcp port # would pass thru to the serial port on the unit. So I had a > few hooked to all the serial consoles of Sun and SGI boxes. > Ethan, I had sent this question to Kevin too but since you have experience with the device I will pick your brain as well if you don't mind: Can this be used to connect a bunch of devices to one terminal, for example routers, printers, UPSes, etc.? All of these devices allow direct serial connection over the telnet protocol. Currently I use a portable computer and have to connect disconnect the serial cable to access them each time. I am looking for a solution where I can have them all connected and then use a terminal to access them w/o cable connect/disconnects. Thanks. -Ali From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Jan 15 17:24:27 2018 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:24:27 -0600 Subject: Livingston Portmaster 2e In-Reply-To: <027f01d38e3e$222d3160$66879420$@internode.on.net> References: <027f01d38e3e$222d3160$66879420$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <20180115232427.GA11694@lonesome.com> On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 07:19:17AM +1100, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > not sure of that's a realistic expectation of what they're worth or not. Put it this way: if you find out what they are smoking, please let me know. mcl From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Jan 15 17:34:28 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:34:28 -0700 Subject: Livingston Portmaster 2e In-Reply-To: <20180115232427.GA11694@lonesome.com> References: <027f01d38e3e$222d3160$66879420$@internode.on.net> <20180115232427.GA11694@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Mark Linimon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 07:19:17AM +1100, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > > not sure of that's a realistic expectation of what they're worth or not. > > Put it this way: if you find out what they are smoking, please let me know. > Used on ebay, generally the prices are: 16-port serial terminal: US$150-US$200 32-port serial terminal: US$200-US$250 New gear and/or crazy sellers not included. Extra features beyond the basics excluded. This is a 25-year-old used 30-port serial box. Unless there's money laundering involved, the price is insane. And if there is money laundering involved, you shouldn't buy it :) Warner From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 22:12:58 2018 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 23:12:58 -0500 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: <24207C91-2AD9-4E4D-862A-AD0B8D5274FB@fritzm.org> References: <20180113210916.CDF4C18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <24207C91-2AD9-4E4D-862A-AD0B8D5274FB@fritzm.org> Message-ID: So sad. It is local pick up for me, but I have no place to store it. On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 12:01 AM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Jan 13, 2018, at 1:09 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Ah; the dual-wide plug-in connector soldered onto the back kind of threw > me a > > bit! > > Yeah it?s a bit weird, but mine has that too. It?s a pass-through, and It > turns out, handily, that that you can plug in a KM11 right there for > troubleshooting. > > > ...I wonder if the RK05 is on the same controller as the Diablo, or if > the PDP-8 has an RK controller, too. > > Oh right, duh ? it?s an 8! I guess the RK11 is just there with the diablo > for the GT40? From cube1 at charter.net Mon Jan 15 19:16:57 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 19:16:57 -0600 Subject: Which Operating System for my DCC-116 E / Entrex 480 / Nixdorf 620 / Data General Nova 1200 clone ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/4/2017 3:33 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctech wrote: > Hi all > > I start here another topic concerning my research about a new Operating > System for my freshly restored DCC-116 E. > > http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/second_boot/04.jpg > http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/second_boot/02.jpg > > I originally intended to install RDOS on my machine but it seems very > difficult to find the files needed to make a system installation tape. > FIRST: If you have drawings for the DCC, please let me know. I have two of them (long in storage in the house, but they ran when I pulled them from their Unitote/Regitel rack a couple of *decades* ago. There is an RDOS - disk images, available at: http://simh.trailing-edge.com/software.html (Top entry in the list) It is about a 2.5MB disk image. I suggest that you might download SimH and that image, configure SimH as a straight Nova (rather than a /3 or /4) and see if it runs that image OK. If so, there you go! Beyond that, I *might* be able to help, but it will depend on what the status of copyright is on what I have, and whether your system can even run what I do have. I am looking into the copyright part of it - that may take a week or two. (This is something I needed to to anyway). In the meantime: Do you have a way to *write* a tape image? I have an AWS format image of an RDOS starter system. Note, however, that the label on the RDOS starter image I have suggests it may only be appropriate for a NOVA 3 or NOVA 4, so it might not run on your system. So, I'd have to take some time to boot it and try and set up a system for a straight Nova. As this would take several hours, I'm not keen on doing that unless you know that one from SimH will not work for you. I also have some OS and compiler DG floppy images, if you have a DG-compatible floppy setup. Several different operating systems there. Same issue: one would have to see how many are compatible with a straight Nova. I have images of the floppies. Diagnostics for DG systems are notoriously difficult to find. I have a few, in listing format. JRJ From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Jan 15 19:58:47 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:58:47 -0800 Subject: Which Operating System for my DCC-116 E / Entrex 480 / Nixdorf 620 / Data General Nova 1200 clone ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01aeaabb-98d1-61ac-d147-8feb4104ce60@jwsss.com> On 1/15/2018 5:16 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: > On 10/4/2017 3:33 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctech wrote: >> Hi all >> >> I start here another topic concerning my research about a new Operating >> System for my freshly restored DCC-116 E. >> >> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/second_boot/04.jpg >> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/second_boot/02.jpg >> >> I originally intended to install RDOS on my machine but it seems very >> difficult to find the files needed to make a system installation tape. >> > FIRST: If you have drawings for the DCC, please let me know. I have > two of them (long in storage in the house, but they ran when I pulled > them from their Unitote/Regitel rack a couple of *decades* ago. > > There is an RDOS - disk images, available at: > > http://simh.trailing-edge.com/software.html > > (Top entry in the list) It is about a 2.5MB disk image. > > I suggest that you might download SimH and that image, configure SimH as > a straight Nova (rather than a /3 or /4) and see if it runs that image > OK. If so, there you go! > > Beyond that, I *might* be able to help, but it will depend on what the > status of copyright is on what I have, and whether your system can even > run what I do have. I am looking into the copyright part of it - that > may take a week or two. (This is something I needed to to anyway). > > In the meantime: > > Do you have a way to *write* a tape image? I have an AWS format image > of an RDOS starter system. Note, however, that the label on the RDOS > starter image I have suggests it may only be appropriate for a NOVA 3 > or NOVA 4, so it might not run on your system. So, I'd have to take > some time to boot it and try and set up a system for a straight Nova. > As this would take several hours, I'm not keen on doing that unless you > know that one from SimH will not work for you. > > I also have some OS and compiler DG floppy images, if you have a > DG-compatible floppy setup. Several different operating systems there. > Same issue: one would have to see how many are compatible with a > straight Nova. I have images of the floppies. > > Diagnostics for DG systems are notoriously difficult to find. I have a > few, in listing format. > > JRJ Jay, I have two Nova 4 systems with floppies and one Nova 3 with serial and a controller for Diablo, so would be interested in your images as is if you can share them. They are all as acquired, so am trying to get as much as possible for a project to restore one of them at least down the line.? If you know of anything that runs or ran on the Nova 4 from floppies that would be appreciated.? The systems are 6" high basic controls and same for the floppy boxes for the Nova 4. the Nova 3 I have a full switch panel for, but just the diablo controller, no peripherals.? The 4's are the most likely to be gotten to run. For me, all I'd need is the images and of course help getting them going, you would hopefully not have to do as much as you would for the nixdorf.? Of course I hope he can get his going with your help, but if it isn't something he needs, putting in my word that I would appreciate it. thanks Jim From martin at meiner.ch Tue Jan 16 02:19:34 2018 From: martin at meiner.ch (Martin Meiner) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:19:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> Hello guys. I am a passionate collector of old computerhardware (PDP8?s) and terminals from the very early 70ies. It has always been my aim to be able toconnect a modem or an acoustic coupler directly to one of my ASCII terminals,dial a number and be connected?with Google! Something like Google-interface but convertedto match ASCII terminals (only text, very simple graphics). I am aware that all searches that returnpicture sand graphics will not be displayed. But at least search-page should bein plain text, and many websites may as well. Wikipedia would be great? Does anybody know if there exists such anaccess-number where this conversion is already made, or is there a small deviceon the market that allows on one side connect to a dial-up modem and on theother side to the terminal and doing the ASCII conversion stand-alone? ?It would be really cool to be able todemonstrate to folks that these terminals can actually look up pages on Googleand (with limitations) also access some pages. Something similar has actually been done in an artisticway a few years ago under: http://www.masswerk.at/googleBBS/or http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ But I need the real thing working where I canconnect my terminals to?? Any help is appreciated From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Jan 16 04:38:16 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 11:38:16 +0100 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 08:19:34AM +0000, Martin Meiner via cctech wrote: [...] > Does anybody know if there exists such anaccess-number where this conversion > is already made, or is there a small deviceon the market that allows on one > side connect to a dial-up modem and on theother side to the terminal and > doing the ASCII conversion stand-alone? I do this routinely, albeit with a terminal emulator and ssh session rather than a physical terminal and modem. My "small device" is a Debian Linux box in Germany on which I read mail and Usenet, do IRC, etc. I wrote a trivial Perl script called "google" that inspects its arguments, and constructs a search URL which it passes to elinks, a text-mode web browser. A similarly-trivial "wikipedia" script could be written. Some web sites such as Twitter recognise the elinks User-Agent and switch to a non-Javascript "mobile" site. FaceBook doesn't work, but there's nothing of value there anyway. A physical serial connection is simpler than a pair of modems, so start with that. Run a null modem cable between your terminal and COM1 on the Linux box, edit the inittab to add a getty for /dev/ttyS0 with the appropriate terminal type (there's usually a commented-out example) and reload init. A similar principle applies to USB-serial dongles, but they're a bit unreliable so try to use a proper onboard serial port if possible. Linux's "vt100" terminal type differs somewhat from DEC's in that it includes command sequences that an original VT100 does not and some full-screen applications will render incorrectly, but a VT220 worked OK when I last tried, back in 2003-ish. If the render is occasionally off-by-one -- you'll know it when you see it -- it means that the terminal is configured for 24 lines and the Unix box for 25 lines or vice-versa. Use the terminal's settings menu and/or tweak $LINES/$COLUMNS on the Linux box. Dialup is a refinement of this. You will need to use "mgetty" instead which understands Hayes commands and other modem control signals, but it might not be installed by default. Note that 15 years ago we were running sysvinit, and now we have the Brave New World of systemd, which is overcomplicated GUI junk and probably doesn't support serial terminals. If you decide to build this, find a Linux distribution without systemd, or use something like FreeBSD. From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Jan 16 09:06:41 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:06:41 +0000 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> On Jan 16, 2018, at 4:38 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 08:19:34AM +0000, Martin Meiner via cctech wrote: > [...] >> Does anybody know if there exists such anaccess-number where this conversion >> is already made, or is there a small deviceon the market that allows on one >> side connect to a dial-up modem and on theother side to the terminal and >> doing the ASCII conversion stand-alone? > > I do this routinely, albeit with a terminal emulator and ssh session rather > than a physical terminal and modem. > > My "small device" is a Debian Linux box in Germany on which I read mail and > Usenet, do IRC, etc. I wrote a trivial Perl script called "google" that > inspects its arguments, and constructs a search URL which it passes to elinks, > a text-mode web browser. A similarly-trivial "wikipedia" script could be > written. Some web sites such as Twitter recognise the elinks User-Agent and > switch to a non-Javascript "mobile" site. FaceBook doesn't work, but there's > nothing of value there anyway. > > A physical serial connection is simpler than a pair of modems, so start with > that. Run a null modem cable between your terminal and COM1 on the Linux box, > edit the inittab to add a getty for /dev/ttyS0 with the appropriate terminal > type (there's usually a commented-out example) and reload init. A similar > principle applies to USB-serial dongles, but they're a bit unreliable so try to > use a proper onboard serial port if possible. > > Linux's "vt100" terminal type differs somewhat from DEC's in that it includes > command sequences that an original VT100 does not and some full-screen > applications will render incorrectly, but a VT220 worked OK when I last tried, > back in 2003-ish. If the render is occasionally off-by-one -- you'll know it > when you see it -- it means that the terminal is configured for 24 lines and > the Unix box for 25 lines or vice-versa. Use the terminal's settings menu > and/or tweak $LINES/$COLUMNS on the Linux box. > > Dialup is a refinement of this. You will need to use "mgetty" instead which > understands Hayes commands and other modem control signals, but it might not be > installed by default. > > Note that 15 years ago we were running sysvinit, and now we have the Brave New > World of systemd, which is overcomplicated GUI junk and probably doesn't > support serial terminals. If you decide to build this, find a Linux > distribution without systemd, or use something like FreeBSD. > I?m not even that advanced, I?m just trying to get OmniWeb on my NeXTStep 3,3 machine to hit wikipedia. Wikipedia seems to have gone to https, and for some reason that is not working. I can do ssh and sftp from that machine, so I must be doing something wrong with the Omniweb settings. - Mark From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jan 16 08:19:20 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:19:20 -0600 Subject: Which Operating System for my DCC-116 E / Entrex 480 / Nixdorf 620 / Data General Nova 1200 clone ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008301d38ed5$008598d0$0190ca70$@classiccmp.org> The 'other Jay' wrote... ---------------------------------- Diagnostics for DG systems are notoriously difficult to find. I have a few, in listing format. ---------------------------------- I have a full official DG-issued/labeled original diagnostic OS tape. I do believe it is at 800bpi though. If I had an 800 bpi drive (everything I have is 1600-6250) I'd image it for everyone. I have a nice S/130 rack that I was almost finished restoring till Bruce Ray stopped responding. It's been sitting in my workshop for years now and I may have to just get rid of it. Next to it is a pile of about 8 nova 800/1200 cpus (all stuffed with boards) that I was going to start on next, but was waiting till the S/130 was done. I'd like to get done with them so I can move on to other machines that need to be restored... but may have to just move them out altogether. I'm wary of just sending the tape through the mail for imaging.... maybe I can find someone local with an 800 bpi tape drive and eric smith's tapeutils. J From dce at skynet.be Tue Jan 16 11:03:32 2018 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:03:32 +0100 Subject: Which Operating System for my DCC-116 E / Entrex 480 / Nixdorf 620 / Data General Nova 1200 clone ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3724bbba-3ea0-f816-ad8f-aea15d69f69d@skynet.be> Hello Jay (JRJ), I'm not sure if I understand well, what do you mean by "drawings", do you need additional images of the beast, maybe to better identify it ? If yes : http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/tapetransfert/d116_panel_01.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/tapetransfert/d116_panel_02.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/tapetransfert/d116_panel_side.jpg Regarding SimH it was one of my questions in previous posts: Is there way to make bootable tapes with the data provided with SimH, apparently the answer is yes and it is excellent news ! I have never used this emulator but I will follow your suggestions and try to install the equivalent of a Nova 1200. After I do not know how to convert a disk image into a bootable tape. Regarding RDOS I see that I downloaded with SimH a file "rdos_d31.dsk", how to proceed to put this .dsk on a tape? Regarding my hardware, I have two possibilities, I'm currently working on a set of machines that I'm going to dedicate to the production of bootable media for a whole assortment of machines, I want to be able to generate floppies 8 inches, 5 1/4, 3 1/2 (DD or HD), and also 9 track tapes. For that I have two machines: - One is a TU81 Plus attached to a VAX 4000-505A running OpenVMS 6.2 http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/tapetransfert/tu81plus.jpg - The other is a Shugart (KENNEDY) 9612 which can write in 800, 1600, 3200 or 6250 bpi, this tape drive is equipped with a SCSI interface but I do not know yet if I can connect this drive to a conventional Adaptec scsi interface and I do not know which program I can use. I read somewhere that Linux seems a good choice concerning the support of old tape drive, that'is right ? http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/tapetransfert/kennedy_9612.jpg Anyway, all is to make a 800 bpi bootable tape to mount on the Mag-tape Pertec 8840A of my DCC D-116(E). Regarding the floppy drive I have a project but just started, and as usual no information, I recovered this triple 8 inches diskette drive , it is a Shugart Model 3800 (or SA3800) http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/tapetransfert/shugartSA3800_01.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/tapetransfert/shugartSA3800_02.jpg I found a brochure about this: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/shugart/brochures/Shugart_SA3800_Brochure_Feb78.pdf I do not know if there is a way to connect this machine to my D-116, I don't know if I have the required interface in the D-116, and finally I don't know anything about the interface currently present inside the SA3800. This machine was hooked to another rare machine, a "Hermes Data System 200 FD", machine currently down, and no doc, no info: http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/tapetransfert/hermes_data_system_200_fd.jpg I wanted to use the Hermes as a telex and one of these floppy drive - Although it's an SD one - for data transfer between my recent machines and my dear (still dead) Sperry Univac UTS 40, but that's another topic again, sorry, I'm scattering ;-) FYI I still have many lacks of knowledge, I do not know what an AWS image format. I do not know anything about licensing and copywrite issues in the context of retro-computer preservation, I've always found that very inappropriate in regard of the efforts we make, the time we take on our lives to protect this legacy for the unique purpose of preserving a piece of history related to the evolution of technology. Fortunately there are people like you, in a good spirit of mutual help that goes beyond the borders of countries and continents,? a big thank you for that! Dominique On 16/01/2018 02:16, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 10/4/2017 3:33 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctech wrote: >> Hi all >> >> I start here another topic concerning my research about a new Operating >> System for my freshly restored DCC-116 E. >> >> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/second_boot/04.jpg >> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/second_boot/02.jpg >> >> I originally intended to install RDOS on my machine but it seems very >> difficult to find the files needed to make a system installation tape. >> > FIRST: If you have drawings for the DCC, please let me know. I have > two of them (long in storage in the house, but they ran when I pulled > them from their Unitote/Regitel rack a couple of *decades* ago. > > There is an RDOS - disk images, available at: > > http://simh.trailing-edge.com/software.html > > (Top entry in the list) It is about a 2.5MB disk image. > > I suggest that you might download SimH and that image, configure SimH as > a straight Nova (rather than a /3 or /4) and see if it runs that image > OK. If so, there you go! > > Beyond that, I *might* be able to help, but it will depend on what the > status of copyright is on what I have, and whether your system can even > run what I do have. I am looking into the copyright part of it - that > may take a week or two. (This is something I needed to to anyway). > > In the meantime: > > Do you have a way to *write* a tape image? I have an AWS format image > of an RDOS starter system. Note, however, that the label on the RDOS > starter image I have suggests it may only be appropriate for a NOVA 3 > or NOVA 4, so it might not run on your system. So, I'd have to take > some time to boot it and try and set up a system for a straight Nova. > As this would take several hours, I'm not keen on doing that unless you > know that one from SimH will not work for you. > > I also have some OS and compiler DG floppy images, if you have a > DG-compatible floppy setup. Several different operating systems there. > Same issue: one would have to see how many are compatible with a > straight Nova. I have images of the floppies. > > Diagnostics for DG systems are notoriously difficult to find. I have a > few, in listing format. > > JRJ > > From dce at skynet.be Tue Jan 16 11:03:32 2018 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:03:32 +0100 Subject: Which Operating System for my DCC-116 E / Entrex 480 / Nixdorf 620 / Data General Nova 1200 clone ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3724bbba-3ea0-f816-ad8f-aea15d69f69d@skynet.be> Hello Jay (JRJ), I'm not sure if I understand well, what do you mean by "drawings", do you need additional images of the beast, maybe to better identify it ? If yes : http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/tapetransfert/d116_panel_01.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/tapetransfert/d116_panel_02.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/tapetransfert/d116_panel_side.jpg Regarding SimH it was one of my questions in previous posts: Is there way to make bootable tapes with the data provided with SimH, apparently the answer is yes and it is excellent news ! I have never used this emulator but I will follow your suggestions and try to install the equivalent of a Nova 1200. After I do not know how to convert a disk image into a bootable tape. Regarding RDOS I see that I downloaded with SimH a file "rdos_d31.dsk", how to proceed to put this .dsk on a tape? Regarding my hardware, I have two possibilities, I'm currently working on a set of machines that I'm going to dedicate to the production of bootable media for a whole assortment of machines, I want to be able to generate floppies 8 inches, 5 1/4, 3 1/2 (DD or HD), and also 9 track tapes. For that I have two machines: - One is a TU81 Plus attached to a VAX 4000-505A running OpenVMS 6.2 http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/tapetransfert/tu81plus.jpg - The other is a Shugart (KENNEDY) 9612 which can write in 800, 1600, 3200 or 6250 bpi, this tape drive is equipped with a SCSI interface but I do not know yet if I can connect this drive to a conventional Adaptec scsi interface and I do not know which program I can use. I read somewhere that Linux seems a good choice concerning the support of old tape drive, that'is right ? http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/tapetransfert/kennedy_9612.jpg Anyway, all is to make a 800 bpi bootable tape to mount on the Mag-tape Pertec 8840A of my DCC D-116(E). Regarding the floppy drive I have a project but just started, and as usual no information, I recovered this triple 8 inches diskette drive , it is a Shugart Model 3800 (or SA3800) http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/tapetransfert/shugartSA3800_01.jpg http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/tapetransfert/shugartSA3800_02.jpg I found a brochure about this: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/shugart/brochures/Shugart_SA3800_Brochure_Feb78.pdf I do not know if there is a way to connect this machine to my D-116, I don't know if I have the required interface in the D-116, and finally I don't know anything about the interface currently present inside the SA3800. This machine was hooked to another rare machine, a "Hermes Data System 200 FD", machine currently down, and no doc, no info: http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/tapetransfert/hermes_data_system_200_fd.jpg I wanted to use the Hermes as a telex and one of these floppy drive - Although it's an SD one - for data transfer between my recent machines and my dear (still dead) Sperry Univac UTS 40, but that's another topic again, sorry, I'm scattering ;-) FYI I still have many lacks of knowledge, I do not know what an AWS image format. I do not know anything about licensing and copywrite issues in the context of retro-computer preservation, I've always found that very inappropriate in regard of the efforts we make, the time we take on our lives to protect this legacy for the unique purpose of preserving a piece of history related to the evolution of technology. Fortunately there are people like you, in a good spirit of mutual help that goes beyond the borders of countries and continents,? a big thank you for that! Dominique On 16/01/2018 02:16, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 10/4/2017 3:33 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctech wrote: >> Hi all >> >> I start here another topic concerning my research about a new Operating >> System for my freshly restored DCC-116 E. >> >> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/second_boot/04.jpg >> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/second_boot/02.jpg >> >> I originally intended to install RDOS on my machine but it seems very >> difficult to find the files needed to make a system installation tape. >> > FIRST: If you have drawings for the DCC, please let me know. I have > two of them (long in storage in the house, but they ran when I pulled > them from their Unitote/Regitel rack a couple of *decades* ago. > > There is an RDOS - disk images, available at: > > http://simh.trailing-edge.com/software.html > > (Top entry in the list) It is about a 2.5MB disk image. > > I suggest that you might download SimH and that image, configure SimH as > a straight Nova (rather than a /3 or /4) and see if it runs that image > OK. If so, there you go! > > Beyond that, I *might* be able to help, but it will depend on what the > status of copyright is on what I have, and whether your system can even > run what I do have. I am looking into the copyright part of it - that > may take a week or two. (This is something I needed to to anyway). > > In the meantime: > > Do you have a way to *write* a tape image? I have an AWS format image > of an RDOS starter system. Note, however, that the label on the RDOS > starter image I have suggests it may only be appropriate for a NOVA 3 > or NOVA 4, so it might not run on your system. So, I'd have to take > some time to boot it and try and set up a system for a straight Nova. > As this would take several hours, I'm not keen on doing that unless you > know that one from SimH will not work for you. > > I also have some OS and compiler DG floppy images, if you have a > DG-compatible floppy setup. Several different operating systems there. > Same issue: one would have to see how many are compatible with a > straight Nova. I have images of the floppies. > > Diagnostics for DG systems are notoriously difficult to find. I have a > few, in listing format. > > JRJ > > From dce at skynet.be Tue Jan 16 11:51:53 2018 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:51:53 +0100 Subject: Which Operating System for my DCC-116 E / Entrex 480 / Nixdorf 620 / Data General Nova 1200 clone ? In-Reply-To: <008301d38ed5$008598d0$0190ca70$@classiccmp.org> References: <008301d38ed5$008598d0$0190ca70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I understand very well your concerns about sending by mail rare data on magnetic media. It's a pity that I live so far away (in Belgium), even if I have not finished to configure my machines, at the end I should be able to write anything on any media, and concerning magnetic tapes it will be from 500 to 6250 bpi. If one day you find in your stock a communication board for Nova 1200 that you do not use please note that I am a potential buyer. In the meantime, I have to find solutions to reopen all my old monsters to the outside world ;-) Dominique On 16/01/2018 15:19, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > The 'other Jay' wrote... > ---------------------------------- > Diagnostics for DG systems are notoriously difficult to find. I have a few, in listing format. > ---------------------------------- > I have a full official DG-issued/labeled original diagnostic OS tape. I do believe it is at 800bpi though. If I had an 800 bpi drive (everything I have is 1600-6250) I'd image it for everyone. > > I have a nice S/130 rack that I was almost finished restoring till Bruce Ray stopped responding. It's been sitting in my workshop for years now and I may have to just get rid of it. Next to it is a pile of about 8 nova 800/1200 cpus (all stuffed with boards) that I was going to start on next, but was waiting till the S/130 was done. I'd like to get done with them so I can move on to other machines that need to be restored... but may have to just move them out altogether. > > I'm wary of just sending the tape through the mail for imaging.... maybe I can find someone local with an 800 bpi tape drive and eric smith's tapeutils. > > J > > > From dce at skynet.be Tue Jan 16 11:51:53 2018 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:51:53 +0100 Subject: Which Operating System for my DCC-116 E / Entrex 480 / Nixdorf 620 / Data General Nova 1200 clone ? In-Reply-To: <008301d38ed5$008598d0$0190ca70$@classiccmp.org> References: <008301d38ed5$008598d0$0190ca70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I understand very well your concerns about sending by mail rare data on magnetic media. It's a pity that I live so far away (in Belgium), even if I have not finished to configure my machines, at the end I should be able to write anything on any media, and concerning magnetic tapes it will be from 500 to 6250 bpi. If one day you find in your stock a communication board for Nova 1200 that you do not use please note that I am a potential buyer. In the meantime, I have to find solutions to reopen all my old monsters to the outside world ;-) Dominique On 16/01/2018 15:19, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > The 'other Jay' wrote... > ---------------------------------- > Diagnostics for DG systems are notoriously difficult to find. I have a few, in listing format. > ---------------------------------- > I have a full official DG-issued/labeled original diagnostic OS tape. I do believe it is at 800bpi though. If I had an 800 bpi drive (everything I have is 1600-6250) I'd image it for everyone. > > I have a nice S/130 rack that I was almost finished restoring till Bruce Ray stopped responding. It's been sitting in my workshop for years now and I may have to just get rid of it. Next to it is a pile of about 8 nova 800/1200 cpus (all stuffed with boards) that I was going to start on next, but was waiting till the S/130 was done. I'd like to get done with them so I can move on to other machines that need to be restored... but may have to just move them out altogether. > > I'm wary of just sending the tape through the mail for imaging.... maybe I can find someone local with an 800 bpi tape drive and eric smith's tapeutils. > > J > > > From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Jan 16 12:02:37 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 10:02:37 -0800 Subject: Long Shot - Looking for boards from a Western Electric 101-A modem Message-ID: Think 101-C's are rare ? This weekend a Teletype model 35 came home with me and the attached Western Electric 101-A modem is missing its boards. https://photos.app.goo.gl/rZNAt20Vh9CXAflA3 -pete From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Tue Jan 16 12:04:11 2018 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 11:04:11 -0700 Subject: DECtape madness In-Reply-To: <0bfcd9b0-3473-7f3e-aa47-c30e3b281053@froghouse.org> References: <20180113142058.2BD1518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0bfcd9b0-3473-7f3e-aa47-c30e3b281053@froghouse.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 7:34 AM, David Bridgham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I've wondered if you might not make DECtape tape from 3/4" video tape. > I know that DECtape has mylar on both sides but what if you somehow > glued two strips of video tape together with the mylar backing on the > outside. Probably want to build a jig of some sort and I'm not sure > what glue to use. > I have read on several occasions about the mylar on both faces of the tape. I have over 300 reels of DECTape in my collection. Most of these are 3M Scotch branded but around 30 of them are DEC branded in the blue plastic boxes. I have never seen one with mylar on both sides. This may have been something that existed early on but certainly wasn't the norm. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Jan 16 12:06:39 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 10:06:39 -0800 Subject: Long Shot - Looking for boards from a Western Electric 101-A modem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Make that a 28 (Baudot) not a 35 .... On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 10:02 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Think 101-C's are rare ? > > This weekend a Teletype model 35 came home with me and the attached > Western Electric 101-A modem is missing its boards. > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/rZNAt20Vh9CXAflA3 > > -pete > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 16 12:19:59 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 13:19:59 -0500 Subject: DECtape madness In-Reply-To: References: <20180113142058.2BD1518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0bfcd9b0-3473-7f3e-aa47-c30e3b281053@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <3401A3FE-9E8D-49C7-B0A2-74741C87731D@comcast.net> > On Jan 16, 2018, at 1:04 PM, Doug Ingraham via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 7:34 AM, David Bridgham via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I've wondered if you might not make DECtape tape from 3/4" video tape. >> I know that DECtape has mylar on both sides but what if you somehow >> glued two strips of video tape together with the mylar backing on the >> outside. Probably want to build a jig of some sort and I'm not sure >> what glue to use. >> > > I have read on several occasions about the mylar on both faces of the > tape. I have over 300 reels of DECTape in my collection. Most of these > are 3M Scotch branded but around 30 of them are DEC branded in the blue > plastic boxes. I have never seen one with mylar on both sides. This may > have been something that existed early on but certainly wasn't the norm. Well, the spec is clear about a protective layer on top. And I've always been told that it's mylar. And the fact that DECtape is far more wear resistant than regular magtape makes it clear it isn't constructed the same way. It is correct that it doesn't have a glossy top layer matching the glossy substrate. But that doesn't mean there isn't a top layer present. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 16 12:47:40 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 13:47:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Which Operating System for my DCC-116 E / Entrex 480 / Nixdorf 620 / Data General Nova 1200 clone ? Message-ID: <20180116184740.7010418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jay West > I'm wary of just sending the tape through the mail for imaging.... Why? I sent some tapes out to Chuck to get read, those went by USPS, and no problem (well, one had some drop-outs, but they were old and not in great shape; the other one read fine). Noel From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 16 13:02:51 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 11:02:51 -0800 Subject: Which Operating System for my DCC-116 E / Entrex 480 / Nixdorf 620 / Data General Nova 1200 clone ? In-Reply-To: <20180116184740.7010418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180116184740.7010418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <843dff85-ad99-eaa9-8340-8b95458608c6@sydex.com> On 01/16/2018 10:47 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Jay West > > > I'm wary of just sending the tape through the mail for imaging.... > > Why? I sent some tapes out to Chuck to get read, those went by USPS, and no > problem (well, one had some drop-outs, but they were old and not in great > shape; the other one read fine). Sorry, I haven't been following this thread. Sure, I can treat and read some tapes. 9-track, I assume? (I can also do 7-track). Taking some time to see after miscellaneous personal stuff, but they'll get done eventually. --Chuck From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Tue Jan 16 13:18:12 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 19:18:12 +0000 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> Message-ID: I suppose one could emulate the telephone carrier dial tone and ring back tone with a third device, then the modems would just act like a direct connection after their handshake? I'm so glad there are others who want to accurately recreate the whole user experience! =] On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 10:06 AM Tapley, Mark via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Jan 16, 2018, at 4:38 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 08:19:34AM +0000, Martin Meiner via cctech wrote: > > [...] > >> Does anybody know if there exists such anaccess-number where this > conversion > >> is already made, or is there a small deviceon the market that allows on > one > >> side connect to a dial-up modem and on theother side to the terminal and > >> doing the ASCII conversion stand-alone? > > > > I do this routinely, albeit with a terminal emulator and ssh session > rather > > than a physical terminal and modem. > > > > My "small device" is a Debian Linux box in Germany on which I read mail > and > > Usenet, do IRC, etc. I wrote a trivial Perl script called "google" that > > inspects its arguments, and constructs a search URL which it passes to > elinks, > > a text-mode web browser. A similarly-trivial "wikipedia" script could be > > written. Some web sites such as Twitter recognise the elinks User-Agent > and > > switch to a non-Javascript "mobile" site. FaceBook doesn't work, but > there's > > nothing of value there anyway. > > > > A physical serial connection is simpler than a pair of modems, so start > with > > that. Run a null modem cable between your terminal and COM1 on the Linux > box, > > edit the inittab to add a getty for /dev/ttyS0 with the appropriate > terminal > > type (there's usually a commented-out example) and reload init. A similar > > principle applies to USB-serial dongles, but they're a bit unreliable so > try to > > use a proper onboard serial port if possible. > > > > Linux's "vt100" terminal type differs somewhat from DEC's in that it > includes > > command sequences that an original VT100 does not and some full-screen > > applications will render incorrectly, but a VT220 worked OK when I last > tried, > > back in 2003-ish. If the render is occasionally off-by-one -- you'll > know it > > when you see it -- it means that the terminal is configured for 24 lines > and > > the Unix box for 25 lines or vice-versa. Use the terminal's settings menu > > and/or tweak $LINES/$COLUMNS on the Linux box. > > > > Dialup is a refinement of this. You will need to use "mgetty" instead > which > > understands Hayes commands and other modem control signals, but it might > not be > > installed by default. > > > > Note that 15 years ago we were running sysvinit, and now we have the > Brave New > > World of systemd, which is overcomplicated GUI junk and probably doesn't > > support serial terminals. If you decide to build this, find a Linux > > distribution without systemd, or use something like FreeBSD. > > > > I?m not even that advanced, I?m just trying to get OmniWeb on my NeXTStep > 3,3 machine to hit wikipedia. Wikipedia seems to have gone to https, and > for some reason that is not working. I can do ssh and sftp from that > machine, so I must be doing something wrong with the Omniweb settings. > - Mark > > > -- -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 16 13:53:00 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 12:53:00 -0700 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 01/16/2018 03:38 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > I do this routinely, albeit with a terminal emulator and ssh session > rather than a physical terminal and modem. Agreed. > My "small device" is a Debian Linux box in Germany on which I read mail > and Usenet, do IRC, etc. I wrote a trivial Perl script called "google" > that inspects its arguments, and constructs a search URL which it passes > to elinks, a text-mode web browser. A similarly-trivial "wikipedia" > script could be written. Some web sites such as Twitter recognize the > elinks User-Agent and switch to a non-JavaScript "mobile" site. Facebook > doesn't work, but there's nothing of value there anyway. Nice. > A physical serial connection is simpler than a pair of modems, so start > with that. Run a null modem cable between your terminal and COM1 on > the Linux box, edit the inittab to add a getty for /dev/ttyS0 with the > appropriate terminal type (there's usually a commented-out example) > and reload init. A similar principle applies to USB-serial dongles, > but they're a bit unreliable so try to use a proper on board serial port > if possible. I'm curious what sort of issues you've had with USB based serial ports. Is it the fact that USB devices can change names? Or is it a race condition between driver load and getty launching? Or something else? > Linux's "vt100" terminal type differs somewhat from DEC's in that it > includes command sequences that an original VT100 does not and some > full-screen applications will render incorrectly, That surprises me. Is it actually the VT100 definition in termcap / terminfo? Or are you referring to the fact that Linux uses the "linux" (?) term type in lieu of the "vt100" term type? > but a VT220 worked OK when I last tried, back in 2003-ish. If the > render is occasionally off-by-one -- you'll know it when you see it -- > it means that the terminal is configured for 24 lines and the Unix box > for 25 lines or vice-versa. Use the terminal's settings menu and/or > tweak $LINES/$COLUMNS on the Linux box. *nod* I feel like theses are issues that were prevalent back in the days of serial terminals. Probably not new. If anything, new variants in an existing messy soup. Throw some DEC MMJs and LAT in for good measure. }:-) > Dial up is a refinement of this. You will need to use "mgetty" instead > which understands Hayes commands and other modem control signals, but > it might not be installed by default. Why is mgetty required? Are you referring to the fact that mgetty can discern the difference between text / SLIP / PPP / FTN / fax / voice and hand the connection off to the proper back end? If the port is dedicated for this, then I don't think mgetty (or any other fancy getty) is required. > Note that 15 years ago we were running sysvinit, and now we have > the Brave New World of systemd, which is overcomplicated GUI junk and > probably doesn't support serial terminals. If you decide to build this, > find a Linux distribution without systemd, or use something like FreeBSD. Why will systemd be a blocker? Shouldn't any self proclaimed init system be able to launch a daemon (what ever it's dependencies / arguments are) and re-spawn it when it exits? - Why does systemd need to know anything about the serial port? Why can't systemd just launch (m)getty which is monitoring the serial port. - Or are you saying that the (systemd based) login program that (m)getty would call might have issues. Note: I am anti-systemd. But I don't see how Master Control Program, ala Tron, can prevent (m)getty from working on a modern distribution. Granted, the OP might need to create some custom systemd config files. But I view that as more of a speed bump than an actual blocker. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 16 14:31:44 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 12:31:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jan 2018, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > I suppose one could emulate the telephone carrier dial tone and ring back > tone with a third device, then the modems would just act like a direct > connection after their handshake? > I'm so glad there are others who want to accurately recreate the whole user > experience! > =] The WHOLE experience? howzbout BUSY signal, random drop of calls, noisy/static? on line, . . . maybe even include human error, and randomly [rarely] dial wrong number the ring signal, at least around here, is 90V 20Hz? Howzbout acoustic couplers with the various phone handsets that did NOT fit them? I no longer have any of my Livermore modems. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Jan 16 14:40:57 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:40:57 -0500 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: I personally have had a hard time even trying to get a traditional POTS phone line installed over here. The only offerings from atnt and comcast are voip nonsense. Its kinda redundant and buggy trying to dial up over a comcast voip line. ive tried it, it drops constantly. The sales staff do not even know what i am asking for when i ask for a traditional line over a voip line. Being as it was so hard to get a phone line set up over here, i looked into this as an option. Its called a wifi232. http://biosrhythm.com/?page_id=1453 I tried one out on a tandy 1000 and it worked flawlessly. I had set up linux system and made it remotely accessable via telnet, and was able to reach it via the dos running tandy 1000. I did not have the correct adapter at the time, but i dont see anything stopping you from plugging it into a vt100 directly. I was looking to use the phone line as a kind of last resort connection to deliver mail and keep in touch, but ironically, it goes down more often than any other provider, and is the first thing to go in a storm. I personally have been looking into getting a cheap cell phone under the provider "ting" which only bills you for the data used. Set that up as a wifi hotspot and get it talking to the wifi232 connected to a dumb terminal and i think it would be a good setup. if you telnet into a linux system that has the lynx web browser installed, you can view google and wikipedia quite easily. Let me know if you think that kind of setup would be of any use to you. On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 2:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 01/16/2018 03:38 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >> >> I do this routinely, albeit with a terminal emulator and ssh session >> rather than a physical terminal and modem. > > > Agreed. > >> My "small device" is a Debian Linux box in Germany on which I read mail >> and Usenet, do IRC, etc. I wrote a trivial Perl script called "google" that >> inspects its arguments, and constructs a search URL which it passes to >> elinks, a text-mode web browser. A similarly-trivial "wikipedia" script >> could be written. Some web sites such as Twitter recognize the elinks >> User-Agent and switch to a non-JavaScript "mobile" site. Facebook doesn't >> work, but there's nothing of value there anyway. > > > Nice. > >> A physical serial connection is simpler than a pair of modems, so start >> with that. Run a null modem cable between your terminal and COM1 on the >> Linux box, edit the inittab to add a getty for /dev/ttyS0 with the >> appropriate terminal type (there's usually a commented-out example) and >> reload init. A similar principle applies to USB-serial dongles, but they're >> a bit unreliable so try to use a proper on board serial port if possible. > > > I'm curious what sort of issues you've had with USB based serial ports. Is > it the fact that USB devices can change names? Or is it a race condition > between driver load and getty launching? Or something else? > >> Linux's "vt100" terminal type differs somewhat from DEC's in that it >> includes command sequences that an original VT100 does not and some >> full-screen applications will render incorrectly, > > > That surprises me. > > Is it actually the VT100 definition in termcap / terminfo? Or are you > referring to the fact that Linux uses the "linux" (?) term type in lieu of > the "vt100" term type? > >> but a VT220 worked OK when I last tried, back in 2003-ish. If the render >> is occasionally off-by-one -- you'll know it when you see it -- it means >> that the terminal is configured for 24 lines and the Unix box for 25 lines >> or vice-versa. Use the terminal's settings menu and/or tweak $LINES/$COLUMNS >> on the Linux box. > > > *nod* > > I feel like theses are issues that were prevalent back in the days of serial > terminals. Probably not new. If anything, new variants in an existing > messy soup. > > Throw some DEC MMJs and LAT in for good measure. }:-) > >> Dial up is a refinement of this. You will need to use "mgetty" instead >> which understands Hayes commands and other modem control signals, but it >> might not be installed by default. > > > Why is mgetty required? Are you referring to the fact that mgetty can > discern the difference between text / SLIP / PPP / FTN / fax / voice and > hand the connection off to the proper back end? > > If the port is dedicated for this, then I don't think mgetty (or any other > fancy getty) is required. > >> Note that 15 years ago we were running sysvinit, and now we have the Brave >> New World of systemd, which is overcomplicated GUI junk and probably doesn't >> support serial terminals. If you decide to build this, find a Linux >> distribution without systemd, or use something like FreeBSD. > > > Why will systemd be a blocker? Shouldn't any self proclaimed init system be > able to launch a daemon (what ever it's dependencies / arguments are) and > re-spawn it when it exits? - Why does systemd need to know anything about > the serial port? Why can't systemd just launch (m)getty which is monitoring > the serial port. - Or are you saying that the (systemd based) login > program that (m)getty would call might have issues. > > Note: I am anti-systemd. But I don't see how Master Control Program, ala > Tron, can prevent (m)getty from working on a modern distribution. Granted, > the OP might need to create some custom systemd config files. But I view > that as more of a speed bump than an actual blocker. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > > > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Jan 16 14:55:24 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 12:55:24 -0800 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <005301d38f0c$55bd1170$01373450$@net> > http://biosrhythm.com/?page_id=1453 > > I tried one out on a tandy 1000 and it worked flawlessly. I had set up > linux system and made it remotely accessable via telnet, and was able > to reach it via the dos running tandy 1000. I did not have the correct > adapter at the time, but i dont see anything stopping you from plugging > it into a vt100 directly. Now that is interesting. So how does it work? Once you plug it in to your modem do you use your favorite term program (e.g. Procomm Plus, Telix, etc.) to dial into a telnet system? At modem speeds? I assume it does not emulate the lovely modem handshake signs though? -Ali From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 16 15:02:11 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 13:02:11 -0800 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> Message-ID: <9a0fd88a-9300-cf9a-a202-b089597ef15b@sydex.com> On 01/16/2018 12:31 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > The WHOLE experience? > howzbout BUSY signal, random drop of calls, noisy/static? on line, . . . > maybe even include human error, and randomly [rarely] dial wrong number Or trying to call Los Gatos from Sunnyvale using an acoustic modem? (LG was GTE, Sunnyvale was Ma Bell--connections were tenuous at best). Although you can get a copper POTS connection in my neighborhood, it terminates at a fiber-fed terminal. If you're going to get Internet anyway, you might as well go to third-party VoIP. I did, some time ago; I use one of the Obitalk boxes, so I can keep my obsolescent telephones. No problem--*I'm* obsolescent myself. Of course, when the power goes out during a winter storm, *everything* goes out, even if you have emergency backup power for your home. Said fiber-fed terminal has only about an hour of reserve power, So a mobile phone, lousy coverage and all, is still a necessity. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 16 15:07:27 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 16:07:27 -0500 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <9a0fd88a-9300-cf9a-a202-b089597ef15b@sydex.com> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> <9a0fd88a-9300-cf9a-a202-b089597ef15b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3EC6FFBB-21CB-4D5D-B998-BBA9ABAA1471@comcast.net> > On Jan 16, 2018, at 4:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > ... > Of course, when the power goes out during a winter storm, *everything* > goes out, even if you have emergency backup power for your home. Said > fiber-fed terminal has only about an hour of reserve power, > > So a mobile phone, lousy coverage and all, is still a necessity. Which of course also goes out if the power fails, perhaps not as quickly as a poorly constructed POTS system but it will. Various emergency sitatuations (hurricanes etc.) have demonstrated this repeatedly. paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 16 15:07:59 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:07:59 -0700 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> Message-ID: On 01/16/2018 12:18 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > I suppose one could emulate the telephone carrier dial tone and ring > back tone with a third device, then the modems would just act like a > direct connection after their handshake? I doubt that will work quite like you are thinking. There is more to an analog phone line than the audio that comes over it. Namely the loop current and voltage are also additional bits of signaling. I don't think there is such a thing as a cross over phone line. You will quite likely need something like an old school PBX that provides analog ports to pull this off. My other email (which still hasn't shown up to the list) went into more details. TL;DR: I think an old school AT&T / Lucent / Avaya 'Partner' phone system would be a good candidate as they provide analog ports and had relatively simple dialing plan. I've picked them up from swap meets / ham fests for ~$20. As far as I know, ISDN is similarly difficult to emulate. You really need an ISDN switch to do it. :-( > I'm so glad there are others who want to accurately recreate the whole > user experience! It's part of the fun. Learning and overcoming problems. It really makes you appreciate where we are now, compared to where we have been. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 16 13:52:42 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 12:52:42 -0700 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 01/16/2018 01:19 AM, Martin Meiner via cctech wrote: > Hello guys. Hi, > I am a passionate collector of old computer hardware (PDP8?s) and > terminals from the very early 70ies. To each his / her own. > It has always been my aim to be able to connect a modem or an acoustic > coupler directly to one of my ASCII terminals, dial a number and be > connected?with Google! Okay. Are you wanting to connect to Google, like you would a specific BBS? Or are you wanting to connect to something, like an ISP, that you can then use to connect to Google across the internet? The difference is subtle from the terminal's point of view, but very important. > Something like Google-interface but converted to match ASCII terminals > (only text, very simple graphics). I've seen a number of textual interfaces to Google, usually via TUI based web browsers. > I am aware that all searches that return pictures and graphics will > not be displayed. But at least search-page should be in plain text, > and many websites may as well. Wikipedia would be great? I don't think that text only is strictly necessary. 1) There are programs that can convert images into ASCII art. (With varying degrees of success.) 2) Some terminals support various types of graphics. I have recently been playing with Sixel and ReGIS graphics, which both come from DEC VT2xx / VT3xx / VT4xx days. So in theory, you could have actual 4 or maybe 16 (?) color graphics show up on a DEC VT440 (?) terminal. > Does anybody know if there exists such an access-number where this > conversion is already made, or is there a small device on the market that > allows on one side connect to a dial-up modem and on the other side to > the terminal and doing the ASCII conversion stand-alone? I am 99.999% certain that Google has never had an access-number (ala BBS style). I think you're really talking about an old system that provides a shell account and a text mode browser to the internet. - There are MANY over the years. You could do similar via null modem cable between a terminal and something like a Raspberry Pi. It's my understanding that the WiFi232 pretends to be a modem that can initiate TCP connections and convert them to serial. (Think telnet / netcat.) You could obviously insert a pair of modems and phone lines between the terminal and the dial up server. - I personally would not want to pay for the two phone lines needed to do such. That being said, I suspect that you could get slower modem speeds to work across ATAs & VoIP, or even an old analog phone switch. (I've talked with people about using an old AT&T / Lucent / Avaya 'Partner' class phone system for this. > It would be really cool to be able to demonstrate to folks that these > terminals can actually look up pages on Google and (with limitations) > also access some pages. It should be relatively easy to have the terminal connect to a unix system and have it run programs to connect. > Something similar has actually been done in an artistic way > a few years ago under: http://www.masswerk.at/googleBBS/ or > http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ googleBBS seems to provide an example of the ASCII art graphic. 15 seconds of looking didn't show any telnet (et al) ability to access googleBBS. I've seen and messed with Google60 for different reasons (mainframe predilections) before. - I'm sad to see that Google60 no longer works because "Sorry, the Google Web Search API has been shut down in May 2016." > But I need the real thing working where I can connect my terminals to? The big issues that I see are: 1) Do you want the terminal to connect (dial) directly to endpoints, ala BBS style? Or do you want to connect (dial) to an intermediary system that can connect to things on your behalf. 2) I'm not aware of any dumb (or otherwise) terminals that support IP, via SLIP or PPP. So I think you're going to need /something/ to gateway between serial and IP via a dial up connection via SLIP or PPP. I personally would be interested in something, like a Raspberry Pi that can function as a shell account server that can accept the (dial up) connection on a serial port, and then gateway to the internet via standard text mode utilities. I'd be very interested in text mode utilities that support (basic) graphics via Sixel (or ReGIS). > Any help is appreciated I don't know if it's help or not, but it's at least feedback. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 16 14:40:42 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 13:40:42 -0700 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <61977dc0-9991-4d7c-00e5-79488ebfbb58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 01/16/2018 01:19 AM, Martin Meiner via cctech wrote: > Hello guys. Hi, > I am a passionate collector of old computer hardware (PDP8?s) and > terminals from the very early 70ies. To each his / her own. > It has always been my aim to be able to connect a modem or an acoustic > coupler directly to one of my ASCII terminals, dial a number and be > connected?with Google! Okay. Are you wanting to connect to Google, like you would a specific BBS? Or are you wanting to connect to something, like an ISP, that you can then use to connect to Google across the internet? The difference is subtle from the terminal's point of view, but very important. > Something like Google-interface but converted to match ASCII terminals > (only text, very simple graphics). I've seen a number of textual interfaces to Google, usually via TUI based web browsers. > I am aware that all searches that return pictures and graphics will > not be displayed. But at least search-page should be in plain text, > and many websites may as well. Wikipedia would be great? I don't think that text only is strictly necessary. 1) There are programs that can convert images into ASCII art. (With varying degrees of success.) 2) Some terminals support various types of graphics. I have recently been playing with Sixel and ReGIS graphics, which both come from DEC VT2xx / VT3xx / VT4xx days. So in theory, you could have actual 4 or maybe 16 (?) color graphics show up on a DEC VT440 (?) terminal. > Does anybody know if there exists such an access-number where this > conversion is already made, or is there a small device on the market that > allows on one side connect to a dial-up modem and on the other side to > the terminal and doing the ASCII conversion stand-alone? I am 99.999% certain that Google has never had an access-number (ala BBS style). I think you're really talking about an old system that provides a shell account and a text mode browser to the internet. - There are MANY over the years. You could do similar via null modem cable between a terminal and something like a Raspberry Pi. It's my understanding that the WiFi232 pretends to be a modem that can initiate TCP connections and convert them to serial. (Think telnet / netcat.) You could obviously insert a pair of modems and phone lines between the terminal and the dial up server. - I personally would not want to pay for the two phone lines needed to do such. That being said, I suspect that you could get slower modem speeds to work across ATAs & VoIP, or even an old analog phone switch. (I've talked with people about using an old AT&T / Lucent / Avaya 'Partner' class phone system for this. > It would be really cool to be able to demonstrate to folks that these > terminals can actually look up pages on Google and (with limitations) > also access some pages. It should be relatively easy to have the terminal connect to a unix system and have it run programs to connect. > Something similar has actually been done in an artistic way > a few years ago under: http://www.masswerk.at/googleBBS/ or > http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ googleBBS seems to provide an example of the ASCII art graphic. 15 seconds of looking didn't show any telnet (et al) ability to access googleBBS. I've seen and messed with Google60 for different reasons (mainframe predilections) before. - I'm sad to see that Google60 no longer works because "Sorry, the Google Web Search API has been shut down in May 2016." > But I need the real thing working where I can connect my terminals to? The big issues that I see are: 1) Do you want the terminal to connect (dial) directly to endpoints, ala BBS style? Or do you want to connect (dial) to an intermediary system that can connect to things on your behalf. 2) I'm not aware of any dumb (or otherwise) terminals that support IP, via SLIP or PPP. So I think you're going to need /something/ to gateway between serial and IP via a dial up connection via SLIP or PPP. I personally would be interested in something, like a Raspberry Pi that can function as a shell account server that can accept the (dial up) connection on a serial port, and then gateway to the internet via standard text mode utilities. I'd be very interested in text mode utilities that support (basic) graphics via Sixel (or ReGIS). > Any help is appreciated I don't know if it's help or not, but it's at least feedback. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 16 15:19:38 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:19:38 -0700 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <3EC6FFBB-21CB-4D5D-B998-BBA9ABAA1471@comcast.net> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> <9a0fd88a-9300-cf9a-a202-b089597ef15b@sydex.com> <3EC6FFBB-21CB-4D5D-B998-BBA9ABAA1471@comcast.net> Message-ID: <656b0b13-5a8d-65af-c41e-a900b0a4af20@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 01/16/2018 02:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Which of course also goes out if the power fails, perhaps not as quickly > as a poorly constructed POTS system but it will. Various emergency > sitatuations (hurricanes etc.) have demonstrated this repeatedly. That surprises me. In Missouri, analog (a.k.a. B1) phone lines are considered "life saving devices" and have (had?) mandates to be available for service even when the power is out. This is one of the reasons that TelCo equipment had such massive battery backups. I expect that a true analog (B1) phone line should stay in service even without power. I've also seen a number of VoIP offerings that include a battery backup both in the ATA and various equipment along the aggregation path for this very reason. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -- Grant. . . . unix || die From Mark at Misty.com Tue Jan 16 15:21:56 2018 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 16:21:56 -0500 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> Message-ID: <20180116212156.GA25866@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 02:07:59PM -0700, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 01/16/2018 12:18 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > >I suppose one could emulate the telephone carrier dial tone and > >ring back tone with a third device, then the modems would just act > >like a direct connection after their handshake? > > I doubt that will work quite like you are thinking. There is more > to an analog phone line than the audio that comes over it. Namely > the loop current and voltage are also additional bits of signaling. > > I don't think there is such a thing as a cross over phone line. > > You will quite likely need something like an old school PBX that > provides analog ports to pull this off. Teltone and several other companies made/make phone line similators which provide battery, dial tone, ringing, caller ID (sometimes), DTMF (and maybe even pulse?) dialing between several ports. These are designed for testing and demonstrating fax machines, modems, and other analog phone gear. I'm not talking about the sophisticated bench testing gear simulators which provide simulated line loss, delays, and noise, but the simple small portable 2-8 line devices. A quick search on e-bay produces lots of listings for these devices. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 16 15:25:15 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 13:25:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jan 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I doubt that will work quite like you are thinking. There is more to an > analog phone line than the audio that comes over it. Namely the loop current > and voltage are also additional bits of signaling. > I don't think there is such a thing as a cross over phone line. A "Phone Line Simulator" is a small box that permits interconnecting two POTs. The one that I had/have(if I find it), also can create a ring signal. If you can find a Type L handset, it will fit acoustic couplers, but is a crude attempt to LOOK like an "antique" pre-type G handset. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 16 15:27:10 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 16:27:10 -0500 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <656b0b13-5a8d-65af-c41e-a900b0a4af20@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> <9a0fd88a-9300-cf9a-a202-b089597ef15b@sydex.com> <3EC6FFBB-21CB-4D5D-B998-BBA9ABAA1471@comcast.net> <656b0b13-5a8d-65af-c41e-a900b0a4af20@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <58ECDF81-F27C-460C-AD0C-BC6F3F09CE39@comcast.net> > On Jan 16, 2018, at 4:19 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 01/16/2018 02:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Which of course also goes out if the power fails, perhaps not as quickly as a poorly constructed POTS system but it will. Various emergency sitatuations (hurricanes etc.) have demonstrated this repeatedly. > > That surprises me. In Missouri, analog (a.k.a. B1) phone lines are considered "life saving devices" and have (had?) mandates to be available for service even when the power is out. Sure. That's why I said that a POTS that fails in an hour or so is "poorly constructed". Still, any telecom service is going to deal only with limited power failures. Once the batteries drain, or the generators run out of fuel, *poof*. And any of them rely on quite complex infrastructure that can, and sometimes will, fall apart. I still remember a small NH telco which broke 911 service for a full day because their SONET loop wasn't a loop. They had only bothered to connect one end, so when a squirrel chewed through a fiber cable the supposedly fault tolerant connection wasn't, and the whole town went off line. > This is one of the reasons that TelCo equipment had such massive battery backups. > > I expect that a true analog (B1) phone line should stay in service even without power. It certainly does, which is why I still use them. Then again, mine is the only house of about 20 on this one-mile stretch of line that still uses POTS. paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 16 15:36:48 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:36:48 -0700 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <20180116212156.GA25866@allie.home.misty.com> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> <20180116212156.GA25866@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <68012818-b2c7-f74c-ab06-2230ee1278a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 01/16/2018 02:21 PM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote: > Teltone and several other companies made/make phone line similators which > provide battery, dial tone, ringing, caller ID (sometimes), DTMF (and > maybe even pulse?) dialing between several ports. These are designed > for testing and demonstrating fax machines, modems, and other analog > phone gear. I'm not talking about the sophisticated bench testing > gear simulators which provide simulated line loss, delays, and noise, > but the simple small portable 2-8 line devices. A quick search on e-bay > produces lots of listings for these devices. Yep, such simulators will (should) work nicely. I (mis)took Anders comment to be wanting to do something more akin to a cross over cable, possibly with audio induced. If I were ever to try to do something like this I'd likely use an old 'Partner' phone system or an Asterisk (FreePBX / FreeSWITCH) box with the analog FXS ports. If I went the Asterisk (et al) route, I'd also likely try getting soft modems to interface so that the devices connected to the FXS could dial virtual (software) modems and their associated TTYs on the box. - Seeing as how everything is local, and likely using the u-law codec without worrying about bandwidth in box. Hopefully that would work reliably enough to allow playing with things. I do know that I've gotten (33.6?) fax to work across an IAXy ATA and it's proprietary codec fairly well. So I expect that it would be possible to get slower (14.4,or lower) modems to work fairly reliably. Now I'm wanting to re-acquire some POTS devices to play. :-/ My wife isn't going to like that. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -- Grant. . . . unix || die From Tim at Rikers.org Tue Jan 16 15:51:22 2018 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:51:22 -0700 Subject: HP 2108A key In-Reply-To: References: <15ea2bebbbb-c08-5f65@webjas-vad071.srv.aolmail.net> <004301d3327a$77fd8a60$67f89f20$@classiccmp.org> <20170921050955.DE271A585CB@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 09/21/2017 08:52 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 21 Sep 2017, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >> ? Mike Thompson at the RICM is going to look for a number on the key >> for their 2108A, this weekend. > > Ask if he can snap a few good close-up pictures of it.? While > measurement from a picture isn't reliable, it doesn't have to be, if the > picture is clear enough to decide whether a given cut is a 2 cut or a 3 > cut. > Did this get resolved? I have an HP-2108A with key as pictured here: https://rikers.org/gallery/hardware-hp2108a/20050415_132446 From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jan 16 16:08:00 2018 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 17:08:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP 2108A key In-Reply-To: References: <15ea2bebbbb-c08-5f65@webjas-vad071.srv.aolmail.net> <004301d3327a$77fd8a60$67f89f20$@classiccmp.org> <20170921050955.DE271A585CB@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jan 2018, Tim Riker via cctalk wrote: > On 09/21/2017 08:52 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, 21 Sep 2017, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >>> ? Mike Thompson at the RICM is going to look for a number on the key >>> for their 2108A, this weekend. >> >> Ask if he can snap a few good close-up pictures of it.? While >> measurement from a picture isn't reliable, it doesn't have to be, if the >> picture is clear enough to decide whether a given cut is a 2 cut or a 3 >> cut. >> > > Did this get resolved? I have an HP-2108A with key as pictured here: > > https://rikers.org/gallery/hardware-hp2108a/20050415_132446 Yes, it did. Dennis Boone has the techninal details. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From cctalk at classiccmp.org Mon Sep 25 18:21:35 2017 Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 17:21:27 -0400 From: Dennis Boone via cctalk Reply-To: Dennis Boone , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: HP 2108A key > I received a key that was made based on the Chicago Lock H2007 key in > Christian's picture: > It works! > I've asked our resident keymaster to post any specifications needed > to duplicate this key. The key is an H2007. This is one of the Chicago double-sided types. The keyblank is an Ilco 1041G, aka CG1, which looks like this: http://mysecuritypro.com/images/products/highres/cg1large.jpg Note that there are other similar blanks in which the center land is offset one way or the other, but on this one it's centered. One easy way to get one is on ebay: H2007 is one of the relatively common numbers, once used in alarms or elevators or some such. Most real locksmiths (i.e. not the key booth at Ace or Home Despot) will have the means to originate such a key, and can work from "Chicago double-sided H2007 CG1". Many of said serious locksmiths will want you to prove you own the lock. I think I remember hearing that Jay carried one of his HP minis into such a place once... ;) TL;DR: The tricky bit to cutting them is that when Chicago designed them, they developed several hundred unique curves instead of a set of numbered cut depths. However, manufacturers of numerical key machines have worked it out, probably by pretending there are a large number of cut positions. There are two ways these days to originate one: copy the appropriate master key (they come in sets from whoever now owns Chicago, or used from ebay occasionally) onto the appropriate blank; or use a numerically controlled key machine. I can originate most of these Chicago keys from my set of masters, if people are stuck. I think I can also produce the 4T1427 panel lock key, and with a little testing the tubular XX2946, XX2247, XX2065 (since we have cut depths for these). I've been trying to get to the point where I can produce most ccmp related keys, and am interested in expanding that capability, if people have needs or additional data. De From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Jan 16 16:15:48 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 23:15:48 +0100 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> Message-ID: <20180116221548.bjozepga3f2gihzv@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 02:07:59PM -0700, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: [...] > I doubt that will work quite like you are thinking. There is more to an > analog phone line than the audio that comes over it. Namely the loop current > and voltage are also additional bits of signaling. The tightwad fix is to bodge a PP3 battery onto a line splitter, which is often enough to convince modems that there is a phone line. There is no dial tone nor ring signal, so you need to turn off dial tone detection on the calling modem ("ATX1", IIRC) and somehow tell the answering computer to send "ATA" to answer at the right time. > I don't think there is such a thing as a cross over phone line. It's just a bit of test gear, which you should be able to find on eBay. I suspect it will be priced like obscure test gear as well. With the kit I have available, I'd just spin up Asterisk or FreeSWITCH on a handy Linux box, set up a minimal local-only PBX, and plug the modem into a VoIP ATA. This eliminates four hops worth of latency and jitter via an external VoIP provider and thus should reduce or eliminate retrains and disconnects. I could try and order an analogue phone line, but I suspect that KPN doesn't have a script for that and would get very confused. (I also don't care to pay their extortionate tariff of 11 cents per minute for local calls.) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 16 16:19:06 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:19:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 2108A key In-Reply-To: References: <15ea2bebbbb-c08-5f65@webjas-vad071.srv.aolmail.net> <004301d3327a$77fd8a60$67f89f20$@classiccmp.org> <20170921050955.DE271A585CB@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jan 2018, Tim Riker via cctalk wrote: > Did this get resolved? I have an HP-2108A with key as pictured here: > https://rikers.org/gallery/hardware-hp2108a/20050415_132446 Nice pictures of a 2108A ! But no pictures of the key, (which has been worked out) From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Jan 16 16:31:26 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 17:31:26 -0500 Subject: HP 2108A key In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <16101193bf7-171d-4ccf@webjas-vac103.srv.aolmail.net> I never ?found on ein the key stash.... I ordered ?2 ?off ?ebay.... one to use... one to loose! ? ? Ed# ? ? In a message dated 1/16/2018 3:19:11 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On Tue, 16 Jan 2018, Tim Riker via cctalk wrote: > Did this get resolved? I have an HP-2108A with key as pictured here: > https://rikers.org/gallery/hardware-hp2108a/20050415_132446 Nice pictures of a 2108A ! But no pictures of the key, (which has been worked out) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 16 16:43:50 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:43:50 +0000 Subject: HP 2108A key In-Reply-To: <16101193bf7-171d-4ccf@webjas-vac103.srv.aolmail.net> References: , <16101193bf7-171d-4ccf@webjas-vac103.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: You know that one can always remove the pins from the lock and then any key of the right diameter will work. It won't be original but it will work. Most any real lock smith can make a key for you if you give him the lock. The ones on the HPs are not that hard to remove. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ed Sharpe via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 2:31:26 PM To: cisin at xenosoft.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Re: HP 2108A key I never found on ein the key stash.... I ordered 2 off ebay.... one to use... one to loose! Ed# In a message dated 1/16/2018 3:19:11 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On Tue, 16 Jan 2018, Tim Riker via cctalk wrote: > Did this get resolved? I have an HP-2108A with key as pictured here: > https://rikers.org/gallery/hardware-hp2108a/20050415_132446 Nice pictures of a 2108A ! But no pictures of the key, (which has been worked out) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 16 16:50:59 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:50:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 2108A key In-Reply-To: References: , <16101193bf7-171d-4ccf@webjas-vac103.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jan 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > You know that one can always remove the pins from the lock and then any > key of the right diameter will work. It won't be original but it will > work. > > Most any real lock smith can make a key for you if you give him the > lock. The ones on the HPs are not that hard to remove. Or get a key cut based on the code number (if avaialable) Or swap the pins to make the lock fit any other key that you have with the same keyway. (If so, and if the lock has the code number engraved/stamped on it, consider taking a dremel to cross out the number that is no longer correct. Or leave it, so that somebody getting a key code cut to steal your machine wastes some time) From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 16 16:59:21 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:59:21 -0700 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <20180116221548.bjozepga3f2gihzv@mooli.org.uk> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> <20180116221548.bjozepga3f2gihzv@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <055ae019-6e05-6459-7095-731a91801d3f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 01/16/2018 03:15 PM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > The tightwad fix is to bodge a PP3 battery onto a line splitter, which is > often enough to convince modems that there is a phone line. There is no > dial tone nor ring signal, so you need to turn off dial tone detection on > the calling modem ("ATX1", IIRC) and somehow tell the answering computer > to send "ATA" to answer at the right time. Sounds like an interesting hack. But should probably be good enough for most of what is desired. I'm going to have to look into this. > It's just a bit of test gear, which you should be able to find on eBay. I > suspect it will be priced like obscure test gear as well. That's what I've found. > With the kit I have available, I'd just spin up Asterisk or FreeSWITCH > on a handy Linux box, set up a minimal local-only PBX, and plug the > modem into a VoIP ATA. This eliminates four hops worth of latency and > jitter via an external VoIP provider and thus should reduce or eliminate > retrains and disconnects. Yep, that's the route that I'd go too. Or maybe even FXS ports in an adapter in the PBX itself. Link - Analog Telephony Cards for Asterisk | Digium - https://www.digium.com/products/telephony-cards/analog > I could try and order an analogue phone line, but I suspect that KPN > doesn't have a script for that and would get very confused. (I also > don't care to pay their extortionate tariff of 11 cents per minute for > local calls.) I'm not surprised. I think a number of analog phone lines are now really something digital to the neighborhood / house (possibly ~> likely VoIP) and splitting it out the B1 locally. So even those might not support modem / fax as well as an old school B1. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 16 17:01:35 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:01:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 2108A key In-Reply-To: References: , <16101193bf7-171d-4ccf@webjas-vac103.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jan 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > You know that one can always remove the pins from the lock and then any key > of the right diameter will work. It won't be original but it will work. MOST of such locks (called "cam lock") have a standardized mounting, although the "cam"/latch bar may differ. You can replace the lock with one of your choice. There are even COMBINATION cam locks, giving you the opportunity to forget the combination that you set, instead of losing the key. With a larger mounting hole, you can get cam locks with Interchangeable Core, or with house-hey keyways to rekey to match your residence key. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 16 17:19:38 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:19:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <055ae019-6e05-6459-7095-731a91801d3f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> <20180116221548.bjozepga3f2gihzv@mooli.org.uk> <055ae019-6e05-6459-7095-731a91801d3f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: >> The tightwad fix is to bodge a PP3 battery onto a line splitter, which is >> often enough to convince modems that there is a phone line. There is no >> dial tone nor ring signal, so you need to turn off dial tone detection on >> the calling modem ("ATX1", IIRC) and somehow tell the answering computer to >> send "ATA" to answer at the right time. On Tue, 16 Jan 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Sounds like an interesting hack. But should probably be good enough for most > of what is desired. > I'm going to have to look into this. If you don't need the "handshake" for dialtone, ring, caller-ID, etc., then all you need is some electric power. For MAXIMUM realism, then the "answer" end should also get occasional random "wrong number", incoming fax, "I'm calling to offer you a great deal on" (I don't listen past that). From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Jan 16 17:24:37 2018 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 17:24:37 -0600 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <055ae019-6e05-6459-7095-731a91801d3f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> <20180116221548.bjozepga3f2gihzv@mooli.org.uk> <055ae019-6e05-6459-7095-731a91801d3f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Would this be a good job for the Viking Electronics DLE-300? It emulates a CO with a pair of POTS lines, so you can call from port to port on it. It emulates all of the correct tones and CPC, both modems think they are on POTS lines. Makes it very easy to connect a pair of modems back-to-back, and fwiw it supports data to 112,500. You might also be able to use a Viking DLE-200B but they are not nearly as feature-full as the 300. Should work, though, but the data will be limited to 14,400 or so IIRC. On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 4:59 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 01/16/2018 03:15 PM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > >> The tightwad fix is to bodge a PP3 battery onto a line splitter, which is >> often enough to convince modems that there is a phone line. There is no >> dial tone nor ring signal, so you need to turn off dial tone detection on >> the calling modem ("ATX1", IIRC) and somehow tell the answering computer to >> send "ATA" to answer at the right time. >> > > Sounds like an interesting hack. But should probably be good enough for > most of what is desired. > > I'm going to have to look into this. > > It's just a bit of test gear, which you should be able to find on eBay. I >> suspect it will be priced like obscure test gear as well. >> > > That's what I've found. > > With the kit I have available, I'd just spin up Asterisk or FreeSWITCH on >> a handy Linux box, set up a minimal local-only PBX, and plug the modem into >> a VoIP ATA. This eliminates four hops worth of latency and jitter via an >> external VoIP provider and thus should reduce or eliminate retrains and >> disconnects. >> > > Yep, that's the route that I'd go too. Or maybe even FXS ports in an > adapter in the PBX itself. > > Link - Analog Telephony Cards for Asterisk | Digium > - https://www.digium.com/products/telephony-cards/analog > > I could try and order an analogue phone line, but I suspect that KPN >> doesn't have a script for that and would get very confused. (I also don't >> care to pay their extortionate tariff of 11 cents per minute for local >> calls.) >> > > I'm not surprised. > > I think a number of analog phone lines are now really something digital to > the neighborhood / house (possibly ~> likely VoIP) and splitting it out the > B1 locally. So even those might not support modem / fax as well as an old > school B1. > > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > > > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 16 17:27:57 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 16:27:57 -0700 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> <20180116221548.bjozepga3f2gihzv@mooli.org.uk> <055ae019-6e05-6459-7095-731a91801d3f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <466913c8-5e71-7dd0-caf7-c4099bcb8cf0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 01/16/2018 04:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > If you don't need the "handshake" for dialtone, ring, caller-ID, etc., > then all you need is some electric power. Now I'm wondering about superimposing ~90 VAC (at 20 Hz) to simulate ring. I think that the ""dialing modem could be configured to ignore the incoming ring while it's dialing. If not, some analog circuitry might need to be applied. I wonder if a momentary break between the two sides (still applying 9V to each) while applying ringing voltage to the receiving side would work. Now I need to figure out how to stop my brain. > For MAXIMUM realism, then the "answer" end should also get occasional > random "wrong number", incoming fax, "I'm calling to offer you a great > deal on" (I don't listen past that). LOL -- Grant. . . . unix || die -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Jan 16 17:46:40 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:46:40 -0800 Subject: Cheap Analog PBX was: RE: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> <20180116221548.bjozepga3f2gihzv@mooli.org.uk> <055ae019-6e05-6459-7095-731a91801d3f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <009101d38f24$429b6070$c7d22150$@net> > Would this be a good job for the Viking Electronics DLE-300? > > It emulates a CO with a pair of POTS lines, so you can call from port > to port on it. It emulates all of the correct tones and CPC, both > modems think they are on POTS lines. Makes it very easy to connect a > pair of modems back-to-back, and fwiw it supports data to 112,500. You can pick up a cheap Chinese analog 8 port PBX on ePay for about $60. It will create dial tone, ring, etc. and allow you to call from "extension" to "extension" so you can even dial in and get a handshake tone. The only issue is that I don't believe they can be daisy chained so eight ports is your max and there is no way to connect one site to another (short of running very long wires). -Ali From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 16 17:53:40 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 16:53:40 -0700 Subject: Cheap Analog PBX was: RE: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <009101d38f24$429b6070$c7d22150$@net> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> <20180116221548.bjozepga3f2gihzv@mooli.org.uk> <055ae019-6e05-6459-7095-731a91801d3f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <009101d38f24$429b6070$c7d22150$@net> Message-ID: <43f1c78e-c890-713a-bcf3-2c40a298aefd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 01/16/2018 04:46 PM, Ali wrote: > You can pick up a cheap Chinese analog 8 port PBX on ePay for about > $60. It will create dial tone, ring, etc. and allow you to call from > "extension" to "extension" so you can even dial in and get a handshake > tone. The only issue is that I don't believe they can be daisy chained > so eight ports is your max and there is no way to connect one site to > another (short of running very long wires). I would expect that such PBXs have a way to receiving incoming analog lines. As such, I would expect that you could take an FXO (station) port on one PBX and connect it to the FXS (CO) port on the other PBX, and vice versa. My brain stalls ever time I say FXS vs FXO and I have to verify what I'm saying. - Here's an old but IMHO good reference from Digium. Link - What are FXS and FXO? - https://my.digium.com/en/docs/misc/fxs_fxo_desc/ -- Grant. . . . unix || die From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Tue Jan 16 17:59:51 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 23:59:51 +0000 Subject: Cheap Analog PBX was: RE: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <43f1c78e-c890-713a-bcf3-2c40a298aefd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> <20180116221548.bjozepga3f2gihzv@mooli.org.uk> <055ae019-6e05-6459-7095-731a91801d3f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <009101d38f24$429b6070$c7d22150$@net> <43f1c78e-c890-713a-bcf3-2c40a298aefd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Silvertel makes POTS line interfaces (SLICs) that work on 3.3v or 5v supplies. They do all the high voltage generation and impedance wizardry on the POTS side, then expose audio in/out and simple control lines. To complete the picture you'd have to generate the tones and decode the numbers but that's it I'm guessing. Practical? No. Awesome? Yes. =] On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 6:53 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 01/16/2018 04:46 PM, Ali wrote: > > You can pick up a cheap Chinese analog 8 port PBX on ePay for about > > $60. It will create dial tone, ring, etc. and allow you to call from > > "extension" to "extension" so you can even dial in and get a handshake > > tone. The only issue is that I don't believe they can be daisy chained > > so eight ports is your max and there is no way to connect one site to > > another (short of running very long wires). > > I would expect that such PBXs have a way to receiving incoming analog > lines. As such, I would expect that you could take an FXO (station) > port on one PBX and connect it to the FXS (CO) port on the other PBX, > and vice versa. > > My brain stalls ever time I say FXS vs FXO and I have to verify what I'm > saying. - Here's an old but IMHO good reference from Digium. > > Link - What are FXS and FXO? > - https://my.digium.com/en/docs/misc/fxs_fxo_desc/ > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > -- -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Jan 16 18:27:11 2018 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:27:11 -0600 Subject: Malware history was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5a5e9863.c1abca0a.41386.9b04@mx.google.com> Enjoying the virus/malware history as its always interesting to see what people thought. Tricks, boredom, etc cause interesting results. For punch cards i thought someone was going to mention punching all the holes and jamming the reader. I'm not sure if thats real but heard some folks had to check their opcodes or it could potentially lead to that or flimsy card integrity if not.? Did anyone here ever see animal or other shared system malware? Animal was just a nondestructive trojan (other than potential to take up disk space) but interesting that someone would run a program that appeared unexpected in their home folder. -------- Original message -------- (I'm unaware of any punch-card attacks, but trojans were possible when people used prior subroutines) From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Jan 16 18:37:22 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 16:37:22 -0800 Subject: Cheap Analog PBX was: RE: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <43f1c78e-c890-713a-bcf3-2c40a298aefd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> <20180116221548.bjozepga3f2gihzv@mooli.org.uk> <055ae019-6e05-6459-7095-731a91801d3f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <009101d38f24$429b6070$c7d22150$@net> <43f1c78e-c890-713a-bcf3-2c40a298aefd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <009501d38f2b$57a4a510$06edef30$@net> > I would expect that such PBXs have a way to receiving incoming analog > lines. As such, I would expect that you could take an FXO (station) > port on one PBX and connect it to the FXS (CO) port on the other PBX, > and vice versa. They do have access to outside lines (e.g. 9, number). However, I am not sure again if daisy chaining is possible. Reading the manual I could not find a way to change extension numbers so that even if you connected two units you still would have two sets of the same extensions. An email to the company support address, unsurprisingly, went unanswered. Do a search for sp-208M to see pictures and somewhat of a description. -Ali From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue Jan 16 18:41:25 2018 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 16:41:25 -0800 Subject: Malware history was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <5a5e9863.c1abca0a.41386.9b04@mx.google.com> References: <5a5e9863.c1abca0a.41386.9b04@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 4:27 PM, Sam O'nella via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Enjoying the virus/malware history as its always interesting to see what > people thought. Tricks, boredom, etc cause interesting results. > For punch cards i thought someone was going to mention punching all the > holes and jamming the reader. I'm not sure if thats real but heard some > folks had to check their opcodes or it could potentially lead to that or > flimsy card integrity if not. > Did anyone here ever see animal or other shared system malware? Animal was > just a nondestructive trojan (other than potential to take up disk space) > but interesting that someone would run a program that appeared unexpected > in their home folder. > -------- Original message -------- > (I'm unaware of any punch-card attacks, but trojans were possible when > people used prior subroutines) > For CDC 6000 SCOPE, the second card in the job deck was 'ACCOUNT,name,password' (or something like that; it was a long time ago). In a corner of the keypunch room was a large card recycling bin right next to a card sorter. One would set the card sorter to pull out cards that had an 'A' in column one, and shovel cards out of the bin into card sorter and end up with a tidy pile of user accounts and passwords, Or so I've heard. -- Charles From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 16 21:39:55 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 19:39:55 -0800 Subject: Cheap Analog PBX was: RE: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> <20180116221548.bjozepga3f2gihzv@mooli.org.uk> <055ae019-6e05-6459-7095-731a91801d3f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <009101d38f24$429b6070$c7d22150$@net> <43f1c78e-c890-713a-bcf3-2c40a298aefd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <8ea687b0-ef56-ae07-e243-cb3249e92a39@sydex.com> I wonder if one of the inexpensive VoIP-to-POTS adapters would do the job... Otherwise, there should still be some cheap KSUs around on the surplus market. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 16 21:50:18 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 20:50:18 -0700 Subject: Cheap Analog PBX was: RE: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <8ea687b0-ef56-ae07-e243-cb3249e92a39@sydex.com> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> <20180116221548.bjozepga3f2gihzv@mooli.org.uk> <055ae019-6e05-6459-7095-731a91801d3f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <009101d38f24$429b6070$c7d22150$@net> <43f1c78e-c890-713a-bcf3-2c40a298aefd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <8ea687b0-ef56-ae07-e243-cb3249e92a39@sydex.com> Message-ID: <889b10a8-a629-d7a0-7792-db957efa3f07@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 01/16/2018 08:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I wonder if one of the inexpensive VoIP-to-POTS adapters would do the job... I expect so. That's what I was referencing earlier when I said that I had a fax machine working behind an IAXy (connected to Asterisk.) > Otherwise, there should still be some cheap KSUs around on the surplus > market. I took a gander this evening, and yes, I saw multiple 'Partner' systems that had multiple FXS ports. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -- Grant. . . . unix || die From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 16 22:05:02 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 23:05:02 -0500 Subject: Cheap Analog PBX was: RE: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> <20180116221548.bjozepga3f2gihzv@mooli.org.uk> <055ae019-6e05-6459-7095-731a91801d3f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <009101d38f24$429b6070$c7d22150$@net> <43f1c78e-c890-713a-bcf3-2c40a298aefd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 6:59 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Silvertel makes POTS line interfaces (SLICs) that work on 3.3v or 5v > supplies. They do all the high voltage generation and impedance wizardry on > the POTS side, then expose audio in/out and simple control lines. I've worked with early versions of SLIC - circa 1990... even then, they packed enormous amounts of telco stuff in a small package. One place I worked for made a 2-line telco simulator product - the primary use was testing auto-dialling software to replicate various fault conditions. > To complete the picture you'd have to generate the tones and decode the > numbers but that's it I'm guessing. > > Practical? No. Awesome? Yes. We did that with an 8749 (MCS-48) microcontroller. By dialling different phone numbers from one of the stations, the MCU would complete a connection or play a busy or fast busy signal. -ethan From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Tue Jan 16 18:10:00 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 16:10:00 -0800 Subject: New S-100 boards For Sale and Update to Tektronix 4051 bundle Message-ID: Hello Good Folks. I've put up a new batch of S-100 boards for sale, details here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61192-Sellam-s-S-100-Hardware-Software-and-Peripherals-Sales-Thread&p=494644#post494644 I've also added a 4051E01 ROM Expander to the Tektronix 4051 system I put up for sale earlier. Details and photos here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61006-Tektronix-4051-complete-system&p=494648#post494648 As always, direct responses via e-mail. Thank you! Sellam From classiccmp at earthlink.net Tue Jan 16 22:31:53 2018 From: classiccmp at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 20:31:53 -0800 Subject: Malware history was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <5a5e9863.c1abca0a.41386.9b04@mx.google.com> References: <5a5e9863.c1abca0a.41386.9b04@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2fe473e9-bbbf-1bd4-33dd-44b2cbf688ec@earthlink.net> This isn't malware, but back in 1962 when I was taking a college class in assembly language programming for the IBM 709, my innocence led to the following. Of course, I had, on the typewriter, for my high school years, always typed ' backspace . to get an exclamation point. I did this in a comment in my first punched card submittal using an 026 keypunch. The program was rejected, and I lost $0.25 from my lab fee. So my first real computer program was a flaming failure. Had to wait for the 029 to be emphatic in punching. Dave On 1/16/18 4:27 PM, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote: > Enjoying the virus/malware history as its always interesting to see what people thought. Tricks, boredom, etc cause interesting results. > For punch cards i thought someone was going to mention punching all the holes and jamming the reader. I'm not sure if thats real but heard some folks had to check their opcodes or it could potentially lead to that or flimsy card integrity if not. > Did anyone here ever see animal or other shared system malware? Animal was just a nondestructive trojan (other than potential to take up disk space) but interesting that someone would run a program that appeared unexpected in their home folder. > -------- Original message -------- > (I'm unaware of any punch-card attacks, but trojans were possible when > people used prior subroutines) > From microtechdart at gmail.com Tue Jan 16 23:45:53 2018 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 21:45:53 -0800 Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation In-Reply-To: References: <2dd9851b-164c-53ee-5572-5eebfeed0346@bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: Dwight, thanks for sharing all of this this! Great memory, and fantastic ingenuity, to say the least! Did it happen to be one of these older-style Convergent AWS machines? http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2017/03/convergent-technologies-workstation.html On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 6:16 AM, dwight wrote: > Years ago, we used one of the Convergent machines. I recall playing rats > on it. It had a green screen. It was a 8086 processor and had some Multibus > slots in it. > > I recall the SA8000 hard disk. It would fail after 20 minutes or so. We > sent is back to Shugart for warranty repair with a complete description of > how it needed to run for some time before it failed. > > They sent it back still broken. I when to Shugart with the drive and found > out that they never even looked at the return sheet they had me fill out. > They just replaced the drive belt tested it for 2 minutes and sent it back. > > I couldn't wait for them to not fix it again. I bought a replacement > transistor for the stepper drive and fixed it my self. > > We used them because of the bus slots on the back. I made a DC servo > controller to run an XY table. > > I had an early version of fig Forth running on it to debug my hardware. > > Dwight > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* cctalk on behalf of AJ Palmgren > via cctalk > *Sent:* Sunday, January 14, 2018 6:05:55 PM > *To:* Todd Goodman > *Cc:* General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > *Subject:* Re: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, > AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation > > Todd, thanks so much for sharing, and I'm thrilled to know that a member of > this community is where it's going. > > May I ask, what are your plans for archival of the included disks and > manuals, if any? > > I'd also be quite curious to see if there are any internal circuit > differences between that machine and a "regular AT&T 3b1. If you ever open > it up, I'd love to see/hear about that. > > I've put a fair amount of effort into preserving Convergent-branded OS and > programs, particularly from this era, solely out of personal interest. > Mostly for the MightyFrame, but my journey had to start with the AT&T UNIX > PC first, as that had the larger "still available" user group for learning > & support before I could revers-engineer how to get a MightyFrame to boot. > > Anyway, I would really love to see those software/manual sets be preserved > in a bitsavers.org / archive.org fashion, and if there is anything that I > might be able to do to assist in that effort, I'd love to volunteer. > > My site for preserving this area of Convergent software and equipment is at > http://MightyFrame.com > > Please let me know how I might help, in any way. > > Thanks so much! > -AJ > > On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Todd Goodman wrote: > > > Hi AJ (and list), > > > > I got that one. > > > > Todd > > > > > > On 1/13/2018 10:02 PM, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: > > > >> I'm just wondering if anybody here did (or knows who) bought this one. > >> > >> http://ebay.to/2DaRr13 > >> > >> Even though these were all manufactured by Convergent Technologies, this > >> one is actually BRANDED by Convergent, as their model S/50. > >> > >> And there's software included here. I tried to buy myself, but just > missed > >> it. > >> > >> I'd really like to connect with the buyer here, to see if we can do a > more > >> expansive documentation project on this machine, as well as an archival > of > >> the software that was included. > >> > >> As far as I know, this is the only Convergent S/50 I've ever seen that > has > >> survived, especially with all the CONVERGENT software and manuals (vs > the > >> AT&T ones)! > >> > >> Thanks! > >> > >> -AJ > >> http://MightyFrame.com > >> > > > > > > > -- > > Thanks, > AJ Palmgren > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck > http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ > -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ From microtechdart at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 00:00:03 2018 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:00:03 -0800 Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation In-Reply-To: <1bc9a043-ef3f-8af9-7b7d-a93e3aa58019@bonedaddy.net> References: <2dd9851b-164c-53ee-5572-5eebfeed0346@bonedaddy.net> <1bc9a043-ef3f-8af9-7b7d-a93e3aa58019@bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: Thank you for this, Todd! I believe I can help here, on all fronts. I have several 3b1s, both complete and in varying stages of assembly. I'd be glad to be the comparison on the hardware for sure. I can even donate parts (and/or a whole 3b1) if appropriate, and would gladly do so to see that much rarer S/50 get running. And as far as the disks documentation, I believe I can, and would definitely like to help there as well, thank you for being open to that. I believe that the Dave Dunfield ImageDisk ".imd" files are what bitsavers.org prefers for 5.25" floppy archive files (Al, Bear, please feel free to correct me here...). I have a setup ready to go for that. To keep from clogging this list with the logistical minutiae, I'll reply from my Convergent MightyFrame-email address to you directly, and let's see what we can work out. Thanks again! -AJ On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 6:31 AM, Todd Goodman wrote: > Hi AJ, > > Thank you, I've been looking for 3b1s and 3b2s for a while. > > I plan to eventually be able to image the disks and scan the documentation. > > It will however take a while to get to that point. > > I'm open to loaning media and manuals to someone who can get that done > quicker (I'm in southern NH.) > > I'm also happy to open up the machine and do what I can to help identify > differences though I don't have a "regular" 3b1 to compare against myself > (I'd love one and any 3b2s I could get my hands on as well.) > > You or anyone else should please feel free to stay in contact with me > either on list or off. > > Thank you! > > Todd > > On 1/14/2018 9:05 PM, AJ Palmgren wrote: > > Todd, thanks so much for sharing, and I'm thrilled to know that a member > of this community is where it's going. > > May I ask, what are your plans for archival of the included disks and > manuals, if any? > > I'd also be quite curious to see if there are any internal circuit > differences between that machine and a "regular AT&T 3b1. If you ever open > it up, I'd love to see/hear about that. > > I've put a fair amount of effort into preserving Convergent-branded OS and > programs, particularly from this era, solely out of personal interest. > Mostly for the MightyFrame, but my journey had to start with the AT&T UNIX > PC first, as that had the larger "still available" user group for learning > & support before I could revers-engineer how to get a MightyFrame to boot. > > Anyway, I would really love to see those software/manual sets be preserved > in a bitsavers.org / archive.org fashion, and if there is anything that I > might be able to do to assist in that effort, I'd love to volunteer. > > My site for preserving this area of Convergent software and equipment is > at http://MightyFrame.com > > Please let me know how I might help, in any way. > > Thanks so much! > -AJ > > On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Todd Goodman wrote: > >> Hi AJ (and list), >> >> I got that one. >> >> Todd >> >> >> On 1/13/2018 10:02 PM, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I'm just wondering if anybody here did (or knows who) bought this one. >>> >>> http://ebay.to/2DaRr13 >>> >>> Even though these were all manufactured by Convergent Technologies, this >>> one is actually BRANDED by Convergent, as their model S/50. >>> >>> And there's software included here. I tried to buy myself, but just >>> missed >>> it. >>> >>> I'd really like to connect with the buyer here, to see if we can do a >>> more >>> expansive documentation project on this machine, as well as an archival >>> of >>> the software that was included. >>> >>> As far as I know, this is the only Convergent S/50 I've ever seen that >>> has >>> survived, especially with all the CONVERGENT software and manuals (vs the >>> AT&T ones)! >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> -AJ >>> http://MightyFrame.com >>> >> >> > > > -- > > Thanks, > AJ Palmgren > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck > http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ > > > > -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ From microtechdart at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 00:06:22 2018 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:06:22 -0800 Subject: AT&T UNIX PC 7300 (3b1) disassembly video Message-ID: While I'm thinking about it, for any/all who might be interested, just last week, I created a step-by-step video for disassembling a UNIX PC 7300 (with a few comments/comparisons for the 3b1) https://youtu.be/vYKS-jOdcsQ I've always found them tricky to work on with the way they are packed together, so I hope this could help others who might want to take a crack at a repair/restoration (or, heaven forbid...a "part-out") -- Thanks, AJ http://MightyFrame.com http://QICreader.com http://UnixPC.blogspot.com From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jan 17 01:00:20 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 07:00:20 +0000 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet Message-ID: <7wa7xdgebf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Hello, What software, hardware, simulators, emulators, etc are there that could run ARPAnet today? - ITS has support for NCP, but I don't know if it works. - There's source code for the IMP. - TENEX seems ok at a quick glance. - WAITS, likewise. - Multics NCP has not been located. - Unix? - IBM mainframes? - NOS? - VMS? Does anyone have any host tables between 1975 and 1981? Classic regards, Lars Brinkhoff From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 17 01:03:26 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 23:03:26 -0800 Subject: Malware history was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <2fe473e9-bbbf-1bd4-33dd-44b2cbf688ec@earthlink.net> References: <5a5e9863.c1abca0a.41386.9b04@mx.google.com> <2fe473e9-bbbf-1bd4-33dd-44b2cbf688ec@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <935e59f6-55df-9b19-e226-68fc9ef7d34f@sydex.com> On 1/16/18 4:27 PM, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote: > Enjoying the virus/malware history as its always interesting to see > what people thought. Tricks, boredom, etc cause interesting results. > For punch cards i thought someone was going to mention punching all > the holes and jamming the reader. I'm not sure if thats real but heard > some folks had to check their opcodes or it could potentially lead to > that or flimsy card integrity if not. > Did anyone here ever see animal or other shared system malware? Animal > was just a nondestructive trojan (other than potential to take up disk > space) but interesting that someone would run a program that appeared > unexpected in their home folder. Cards that were mostly holes were called "lace cards". Not uncommon to see one punched (and offset if the punch had the feature) to indicate the start of a punched output file--usually showing the file name or job ID in "see-thru" fashion. High-speed punches generally could be very noisy when punching lace cards (or column/row binary) and prone to errors as they heated up. I'm thinking of the CDC 415 punch as an example, but the 1402 could put out quite a racket as well. Never tried duping a lace card on an 029 or 514. It doubtless would have been noisy as well. --Chuck From phil at ultimate.com Wed Jan 17 01:39:04 2018 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 02:39:04 -0500 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <7wa7xdgebf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wa7xdgebf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <201801170739.w0H7d4nO084373@ultimate.com> > - Unix? I asked around for v6 Unix with "NCP" code when the IMP code was resurected, but never found it.... From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Jan 17 04:08:11 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 05:08:11 -0500 Subject: HP 2108A key In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161039721f9-171b-60a3f@webjas-vae090.srv.aolmail.net> Easier ?just to order one ?for ? 6 bucks off ebay. though! ? In a message dated 1/16/2018 3:43:54 PM US Mountain Standard Time, dkelvey at hotmail.com writes: ? You know that one can always remove the pins from the lock and then any key of the right diameter will work. It won't be original but it will work. Most any real lock smith can make a key for you if you give him the lock. The ones on the HPs are not that hard to remove. Dwight ? From: cctalk on behalf of Ed Sharpe via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 2:31:26 PM To:cisin at xenosoft.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Re: HP 2108A key? I never ?found on ein the key stash.... I ordered ?2 ?off ?ebay.... one to use... one to loose! ? ? Ed# ? ? In a message dated 1/16/2018 3:19:11 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? ?On Tue, 16 Jan 2018, Tim Riker via cctalk wrote: > Did this get resolved? I have an HP-2108A with key as pictured here: > https://rikers.org/gallery/hardware-hp2108a/20050415_132446 Nice pictures of a 2108A ! But no pictures of the key, (which has been worked out) From dce at skynet.be Wed Jan 17 04:41:19 2018 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 11:41:19 +0100 Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation In-Reply-To: References: <2dd9851b-164c-53ee-5572-5eebfeed0346@bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <3d5f4aaf-f4e3-e725-5042-025d3ff2627c@skynet.be> It's interesting, I had exactly the same machine a long time ago, but with a different label. It was a Burroughs B20 distributed by Unisys Dominique On 17/01/2018 06:45, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: > Did it happen to be one of these older-style Convergent AWS machines? > > http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2017/03/convergent-technologies-workstation.html > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 17 06:40:26 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 07:40:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Reviving ARPAnet Message-ID: <20180117124026.CF72D18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lars Brinkhoff > - Multics NCP has not been located. Really? It wasn't in the code dump at MIT? > - Unix? For V6 NCP, we have several versions: http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=SRI-NOSC http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=BBN-V6 (The latter includes NCP as well as TCP/IP.) > - VMS? I'm not sure a VMS machine was ever on the NCP ARPANet? Hmm, looking at a 'Hosts' table from 3-Mar-82 (NCP was only turned off in January of '83), I see two machines with "xxx-VMS"names, and directly connected to IMPs, _but_ no OS is given. So maybe they were front-ended somehow? > Does anyone have any host tables between 1975 and 1981? There's a July '77 one at the end of this: http://www.walden-family.com/dave/archive/bbn-tip-man.txt and a January '79 copy of the MIT-SAIL one at the end here: https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc752.txt Starting around '82, they are more common: stick a phrase from the header of the above into the "this exact word or phrase" box in Google's Advanced Search, and you get things like this: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/BB-H137D-BM/06/new-system/hstnam.txt.html https://trac.common-lisp.net/mit-cadr/export/274/trunk/lisp/chaos/hosts.text Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 17 06:50:27 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 07:50:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Reviving ARPAnet Message-ID: <20180117125027.6A23E18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Phil Budne > I asked around for v6 Unix with "NCP" code when the IMP code was > resurected, but never found it.... Yeah, that one was retrieved only recently, when Chuck managed to read an old dump tape I had of the MIT-CSR PWB1 Unix PDP-11. We didn't run NCP on that machine, but I had squirreled away that code (and the BBN code) on it (in case we ever had any use for it). Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 08:16:04 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:16:04 -0500 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <20180117125027.6A23E18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180117125027.6A23E18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 7:50 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Phil Budne > > > I asked around for v6 Unix with "NCP" code when the IMP code was > > resurected, but never found it.... > > Yeah, that one was retrieved only recently, when Chuck managed to read an > old > dump tape I had of the MIT-CSR PWB1 Unix PDP-11. We didn't run NCP on that > machine, but I had squirreled away that code (and the BBN code) on it (in > case we ever had any use for it). > > Noel > I have the NIC card with fixed IP address from a late 70's U of Delaware's QBUS or VAX (I believe), so I am ready to participate. Please if you get the chance send me a VAX 750/780 and a few cards and I am in. From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jan 17 08:26:53 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 14:26:53 +0000 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <20180117124026.CF72D18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa via cctalk's message of "Wed, 17 Jan 2018 07:40:26 -0500 (EST)") References: <20180117124026.CF72D18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7wy3kwftn6.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa wrote: >> - Multics NCP has not been located. > Really? It wasn't in the code dump at MIT? I asked my Multics guy about it, and he said it was missing. I don't know about the code dump. > I'm not sure a VMS machine was ever on the NCP ARPANet? So maybe they > were front-ended somehow? Yes, it could be. I did look at some host tables. Maybe it was the AMES-11, but now I see it seems to have a PDP-11 frontend. > There's a July '77 one at the end of this: > and a January '79 copy of the MIT-SAIL one at the end here: Thanks! From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 08:28:29 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 15:28:29 +0100 Subject: MY COMPUTER LIKES ME when i speak in BASIC. Message-ID: I scanned a nice little booklet I found in my fathers stuff. "MY COMPUTER LIKES ME when i speak in BASIC" by Bob Albrecht. http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/my-computer-likes If someone feel like they can straighten it up, please do! I didn't feel like ripping it apart to have it scanned so it was troublesome to scan it perfectly in my page scanner. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 11:31:22 2018 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:31:22 -0800 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <20180117124026.CF72D18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180117124026.CF72D18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 4:40 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Lars Brinkhoff > > > - Multics NCP has not been located. > > Really? It wasn't in the code dump at MIT? > > Nope; it was shipped has an "unbundled" product. -- Charles From sgust at ithh.informationstheater.de Wed Jan 17 11:47:20 2018 From: sgust at ithh.informationstheater.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6ren?= Gust) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 18:47:20 +0100 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <20180116221548.bjozepga3f2gihzv@mooli.org.uk> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> <20180116103816.xvmzp5igzgfqaau3@mooli.org.uk> <6CD2508A-F289-42D1-A6E0-C1939406ABA5@swri.edu> <20180116221548.bjozepga3f2gihzv@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20180117174720.vwxfuchpocx7toqt@soeren.informationtheater.de> On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 11:15:48PM +0100, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 02:07:59PM -0700, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > [...] > > I doubt that will work quite like you are thinking. There is more to an > > analog phone line than the audio that comes over it. Namely the loop current > > and voltage are also additional bits of signaling. > > The tightwad fix is to bodge a PP3 battery onto a line splitter, which is often > enough to convince modems that there is a phone line. There is no dial tone nor > ring signal, so you need to turn off dial tone detection on the calling modem > ("ATX1", IIRC) and somehow tell the answering computer to send "ATA" to answer > at the right time. I used the following setup to allow a Sega Dreamcast modem to connect to a non-public webserver locally: +--+ +-----+ +------+ +-----+ |DC|--------|470 R|------|24V DC|--------|Modem| | | +-----+ +------+ | | | |-------------------------------------| | +--+ +-----+ Just a 470R current limiting resistor and a 24DC power supply. On the answering modem I had to use "ATDR", "ATA" was only allowed after the modem saw a RING signal. S?ren From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 17 12:16:32 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 13:16:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Reviving ARPAnet Message-ID: <20180117181632.4D5EE18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Charles Anthony > it was shipped has an "unbundled" product. Ah. I assumed that what had happened was that the set of source files at MIT was just what was in the 'last release', and the NCP code had been discarded by then. I wonder if it's on a backup tape that MIT retained, somewhere? So now I'm curious - weren't many other pieces of important software similarly "unbundled", and if so, were those missing too? Noel From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Jan 17 12:18:28 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 11:18:28 -0700 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <20180117124026.CF72D18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180117124026.CF72D18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 5:40 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=BBN-V6 > > (The latter includes NCP as well as TCP/IP.) > I'm curious: does it inter-operate with modern TCP/IP implementations? Warner From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 17 12:33:00 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 13:33:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Reviving ARPAnet Message-ID: <20180117183300.9DEDA18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Warner Losh > I'm curious: does it inter-operate with modern TCP/IP implementations? This just a guess, but 'sort of'? It _is_ TCP/IPv4, so it's got compatible headers, but I don't know if other parts have changed enough to make it not work. E.g. it probably only supports class A addresses, for instance, which is going to influence the code for picking the first-hop router. Also, the only driver is, IIRC, for an ARPANET interface. Noel From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 13:25:01 2018 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 11:25:01 -0800 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <20180117181632.4D5EE18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180117181632.4D5EE18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 10:16 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Charles Anthony > > > it was shipped has an "unbundled" product. > > Ah. I assumed that what had happened was that the set of source files at > MIT > was just what was in the 'last release', and the NCP code had been > discarded > by then. > > I wonder if it's on a backup tape that MIT retained, somewhere? > > Possibly; we have been rattling doorknobs looking for old tapes. > > So now I'm curious - weren't many other pieces of important software > similarly > "unbundled", and if so, were those missing too? > > Off of the top of my head: TCP. Source for the Pascal Compiler. T&D microfiche explaining how to use ISOLTS and interpreting the diagnostics. There is a lurking bug in GTSS (the GCOS simulator) that is apparently expressing itself in a GCOS library routine; I need to see the source for that routine to make headway on diagnosis, but GCOS source was never released, and is still tightly held, so that is probably never going to happen. -- Charles From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jan 17 14:12:15 2018 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 12:12:15 -0800 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: References: <20180117124026.CF72D18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 17, 2018, at 10:18, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 5:40 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=BBN-V6 >> >> (The latter includes NCP as well as TCP/IP.) >> > > I'm curious: does it inter-operate with modern TCP/IP implementations? This is a more serious question than one might think, but I know you (Warner) have been around long enough to have gone to Interop when it was about improving network interoperability. So here's a real example: I have an HP 3000 Micro GX with MPE G.A3.09 (V-delta-9) which is very 1990. And it has a LANIC, and V-delta-9 is late enough for it to be able to do IP over Ethernet (vs. V-delta-4 and before which could only do IEEE over 802.3). And it has an FTP client. So you might think I'd be able to move files between it and a modern FreeBSD box, right? I mean, it's all just Ethernet, right? Where it falls apart is that there's a bug in HP's TCP/IP ("NS Transport") in V-delta-9 and before, such that it tears down the connection with a failure if a packet is received with IP type-of-service not zero. And the FreeBSD FTP server sets a socket option that gets FreeBSD to send that sort of packet. At a previous employer, I went round with HP a bit on behalf of a mutual customer and got HP to issue a patch for NS Transport that corrects this behavior on the MPE side. Clearly, I don't have that patch on this system. FreeBSD is FreeBSD, and I can build its FTP server from source and change it so it works in this situation; but I think this should give y'all some idea of the hilarity that can ensue when you exhume a 1980s TCP/IP and put it on your network. -Frank McConnell From rlloken at telus.net Wed Jan 17 14:14:20 2018 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 13:14:20 -0700 (MST) Subject: Malware history was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: bgVQerk73wLi1bgVReA74n References: <5a5e9863.c1abca0a.41386.9b04@mx.google.com> bgVQerk73wLi1bgVReA74n Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jan 2018, David C. Jenner via cctalk wrote: > This isn't malware, but back in 1962 when I was taking a college class in > assembly language programming for the IBM 709, my innocence led to the > following. We might as well all contribute. Back in college in 1969 we would submit our Fortran IV assignments on punched card of course. One day I got back junk and discovered that it was not my card deck under the account ID card so I went through the pile of returned decks and printouts and found that another student had swiped my deck and put his name on top so I took back the deck and shuffled his deck well before returning his ID card to the top and resubmitting it. I never heard a thing about that episode but I sometimes wonder what his next output looked like. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 12:05:51 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 13:05:51 -0500 Subject: help id a chip Message-ID: Can someone tell me what chip this is? http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010114.JPG http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010093.JPG http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010094.JPG (note ..94/94 show the item in a sealed in storage material) the underside consists of 4 sets of 12 pins plus the corner 3 pins, as shown on the top of the chip. thanks From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Jan 17 12:19:59 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 10:19:59 -0800 Subject: help id a chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Burroughs One has to love the 1/8" spacing. I have a box of them from when I worked there. I may even have one of the very rare test sockets. The division I was in was considering using the technology. I can't remember what actually used them. Way too long ago. The plant I was in built the B7xx family. I -pete On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 10:05 AM, william degnan via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Can someone tell me what chip this is? > > http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010114.JPG > http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010093.JPG > http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010094.JPG > > (note ..94/94 show the item in a sealed in storage material) > > the underside consists of 4 sets of 12 pins plus the corner 3 pins, as > shown on the top of the chip. > > thanks > > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 12:21:54 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 13:21:54 -0500 Subject: help id a chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What does it do? It's pretty. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 1:19 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Burroughs > > One has to love the 1/8" spacing. > > I have a box of them from when I worked there. I may even have one of the > very rare test sockets. > > The division I was in was considering using the technology. I can't > remember what actually used them. Way too long ago. > The plant I was in built the B7xx family. > > I > > -pete > > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 10:05 AM, william degnan via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Can someone tell me what chip this is? > > > > http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010114.JPG > > http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010093.JPG > > http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010094.JPG > > > > (note ..94/94 show the item in a sealed in storage material) > > > > the underside consists of 4 sets of 12 pins plus the corner 3 pins, as > > shown on the top of the chip. > > > > thanks > > > > > From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Jan 17 13:02:01 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 11:02:01 -0800 Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation In-Reply-To: <3d5f4aaf-f4e3-e725-5042-025d3ff2627c@skynet.be> References: <2dd9851b-164c-53ee-5572-5eebfeed0346@bonedaddy.net> <3d5f4aaf-f4e3-e725-5042-025d3ff2627c@skynet.be> Message-ID: <892ce1fc-6cb7-cb17-3a39-db4e9da9e61d@snowmoose.com> Are you sure? The B20, B21, B22 looked like this - http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102662660 - and nothing like the 3B1 or the S/50. The B25 and subsequent models (which are often referred to as B20s) are modular systems that are box-shaped and got wider as "slices" were added. The B20s were x86-based and the 3B1 (and presumably the CT S/50) was 68k-based. alan On 1/17/18 2:41 AM, Dominique Carlier via cctech wrote: > It's interesting, I had exactly the same machine a long time ago, but > with a different label. It was a Burroughs B20 distributed by Unisys > > Dominique > > On 17/01/2018 06:45, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: >> Did it happen to be one of these older-style Convergent AWS machines? >> >> http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2017/03/convergent-technologies-workstation.html >> >> >> From web at loomcom.com Wed Jan 17 13:19:35 2018 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 11:19:35 -0800 Subject: AT&T UNIX PC 7300 (3b1) disassembly video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87lggwcmyg.fsf@loomcom.com> AJ Palmgren via cctalk writes: > While I'm thinking about it, for any/all who might be interested, just last > week, I created a step-by-step video for disassembling a UNIX PC 7300 (with > a few comments/comparisons for the 3b1) > Thanks for doing this. I've taken them apart maybe 5 or 6 times, but with so much time spread between them that I always forget what a colossal pain in the butt it is! -Seth -- Seth Morabito https://loomcom.com/ web at loomcom.com From dce at skynet.be Wed Jan 17 13:22:15 2018 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 20:22:15 +0100 Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation In-Reply-To: <892ce1fc-6cb7-cb17-3a39-db4e9da9e61d@snowmoose.com> References: <2dd9851b-164c-53ee-5572-5eebfeed0346@bonedaddy.net> <3d5f4aaf-f4e3-e725-5042-025d3ff2627c@skynet.be> <892ce1fc-6cb7-cb17-3a39-db4e9da9e61d@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <6b3f5cb6-69f7-7fe8-ffdb-b877be247afb@skynet.be> You're right, the machine I owned is the one I see from your link. The workstation you mentioned is in the same box but with a monitor and the location of the clips and led slightly different. But I was not far ;-) I don't remember what kind of hardware was exactly in this machine. Shame on me, I got rid of it, it was the pre-internet era, I had no hope to repair and reinstall this machine, it would be different today: - / On 17/01/2018 20:02, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > Are you sure? > > The B20, B21, B22 looked like this - > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102662660 - and > nothing like the 3B1 or the S/50. The B25 and subsequent models (which > are often referred to as B20s) are modular systems that are box-shaped > and got wider as "slices" were added. The B20s were x86-based and the > 3B1 (and presumably the CT S/50) was 68k-based. > > alan > > > On 1/17/18 2:41 AM, Dominique Carlier via cctech wrote: >> It's interesting, I had exactly the same machine a long time ago, but >> with a different label. It was a Burroughs B20 distributed by Unisys >> >> Dominique >> >> On 17/01/2018 06:45, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: >>> Did it happen to be one of these older-style Convergent AWS machines? >>> >>> http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2017/03/convergent-technologies-workstation.html >>> >>> >>> > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 14:14:10 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 15:14:10 -0500 Subject: help id a chip References: Message-ID: The L & TC series (among others?) used a number of those chips; I *might* even be able to look up what it did but I doubt that it'd be useful information ;-) m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Lancashire via cctech" To: "william degnan" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 1:19 PM Subject: Re: help id a chip > Burroughs > > One has to love the 1/8" spacing. > > I have a box of them from when I worked there. I may even have one of the > very rare test sockets. > > The division I was in was considering using the technology. I can't > remember what actually used them. Way too long ago. > The plant I was in built the B7xx family. > > I > > -pete > > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 10:05 AM, william degnan via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Can someone tell me what chip this is? >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010114.JPG >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010093.JPG >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010094.JPG >> >> (note ..94/94 show the item in a sealed in storage material) >> >> the underside consists of 4 sets of 12 pins plus the corner 3 pins, as >> shown on the top of the chip. >> >> thanks >> >> From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jan 17 14:24:02 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 15:24:02 -0500 Subject: Weird thing ID (core stack?) Message-ID: Hi, An acquiantance was wondering about more details on this part: https://imgur.com/a/p1GQ2 It seems to be a core memory stack? But of what type? CDC? Any info appreciated. --Toby From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 17 14:52:18 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 15:52:18 -0500 Subject: Weird thing ID (core stack?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1B9CFF79-21E7-4435-A437-D87FD663E9D6@comcast.net> The marking on the connector certainly says CDC. And the next to last picture shows a black faceplate that pretty much matches what you see in 6000 computers. Look in the Thornton book (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/books/DesignOfAComputer_CDC6600.pdf ) which shows a photo on page 31. Two connectors, 30 pins each in 2 rows of 15 matches what those memories use. You could confirm it further by looking at the number of core planes in the stack. The 6000 memory modules use 12 planes for the 12 bit PPU words (5 memory units combine to make the 60 bit CPU word). Finally, if you're inclined to take off some covers so you can look at the memory plane, the fact that it has 5 wires per core (x, y, x inhibit, y inhibit, and sense) is distinctive. Most other memories have only a single inhibit wire per core, not two. The details of how this is used are in chapter 4 of 60147400A_6600_Training_Manual_Jun65.pdf which you can find on Bitsavers. paul > On Jan 17, 2018, at 3:24 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > An acquiantance was wondering about more details on this part: > > https://imgur.com/a/p1GQ2 > > It seems to be a core memory stack? But of what type? CDC? > > Any info appreciated. > --Toby From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Jan 17 14:58:42 2018 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 12:58:42 -0800 Subject: Weird thing ID (core stack?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6cf58624-295f-8adc-2558-99aa6cb881e2@mainecoon.com> On 1/17/18 12:24 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > It seems to be a core memory stack? But of what type? CDC? Almost certainly a 6000-series core memory "block" from a PP. They measured 6.75 by 6.75 by 3.625 inches tall, so you might check to see if the dimensions match... -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 17 15:09:49 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 16:09:49 -0500 Subject: Weird thing ID (core stack?) In-Reply-To: <6cf58624-295f-8adc-2558-99aa6cb881e2@mainecoon.com> References: <6cf58624-295f-8adc-2558-99aa6cb881e2@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <08AB97E3-A222-4B33-A70D-4B5A3D2F5FDA@comcast.net> > On Jan 17, 2018, at 3:58 PM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 1/17/18 12:24 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > >> It seems to be a core memory stack? But of what type? CDC? > > Almost certainly a 6000-series core memory "block" from a PP. 6000 series central memory uses the same memory blocks, in groups of 5 to make up 60 bit words, 4kW per bank, 32 banks in a fully loaded 6600 (128 kW). paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 17 15:23:27 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 13:23:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Malware history was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <5a5e9863.c1abca0a.41386.9b04@mx.google.com> bgVQerk73wLi1bgVReA74n Message-ID: > We might as well all contribute. > Back in college in 1969 I used to have a tiny portable manual card punch. An acquaintance used it to punch /* in the first two columns of his punchcard based utility bills. (those characters have special meaning to 360 JCL. They have multiple punches per column, so it required making a punch, then backspacing to make the other punch(es)) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 17 15:42:25 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 13:42:25 -0800 Subject: Malware history was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <5a5e9863.c1abca0a.41386.9b04@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <6be986ea-2367-4a8b-e27c-05b148d3391b@sydex.com> On 01/17/2018 01:23 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> We might as well all contribute. >> Back in college in 1969 > > I used to have a tiny portable manual card punch. > An acquaintance used it to punch /* in the first two columns of his > punchcard based utility bills.?? (those characters have special meaning > to 360 JCL.? They have multiple punches per column, so it required > making a punch, then backspacing to make the other punch(es)) /* = end of data set /& = end of job One wonders how a S/360 "C" compiler might deal with this. Preceding it with a space might do the trick. --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Jan 17 16:46:35 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 15:46:35 -0700 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: References: <20180117124026.CF72D18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 1:12 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On Jan 17, 2018, at 10:18, Warner Losh via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 5:40 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=BBN-V6 > >> > >> (The latter includes NCP as well as TCP/IP.) > >> > > > > I'm curious: does it inter-operate with modern TCP/IP implementations? > > This is a more serious question than one might think, but I know you > (Warner) have been around long enough to have gone to Interop when it was > about improving network interoperability. > > So here's a real example: I have an HP 3000 Micro GX with MPE G.A3.09 > (V-delta-9) which is very 1990. And it has a LANIC, and V-delta-9 is late > enough for it to be able to do IP over Ethernet (vs. V-delta-4 and before > which could only do IEEE over 802.3). And it has an FTP client. > > So you might think I'd be able to move files between it and a modern > FreeBSD box, right? I mean, it's all just Ethernet, right? > > Where it falls apart is that there's a bug in HP's TCP/IP ("NS Transport") > in V-delta-9 and before, such that it tears down the connection with a > failure if a packet is received with IP type-of-service not zero. And the > FreeBSD FTP server sets a socket option that gets FreeBSD to send that sort > of packet. > > At a previous employer, I went round with HP a bit on behalf of a mutual > customer and got HP to issue a patch for NS Transport that corrects this > behavior on the MPE side. Clearly, I don't have that patch on this system. > > FreeBSD is FreeBSD, and I can build its FTP server from source and change > it so it works in this situation; but I think this should give y'all some > idea of the hilarity that can ensue when you exhume a 1980s TCP/IP and put > it on your network. > A pre-Interop TCP/IP at that :) It's kinda why I was asking... Warner From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jan 17 17:12:56 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 18:12:56 -0500 Subject: Passing of a valued member Message-ID: To the list: It is with deep personal sadness that I write that young list member Marc Grenville-Cleave, of Dorset UK, has passed away. He was known personally to several list members. I did not have the pleasure of meeting him in person but as he was a longtime friend I wanted to write a brief celebration of his life and interests. Most relevant to this list, Marc was an avid DEC collector and PDP-11 enthusiast and rescuer: http://marc.cleave.me.uk//pdp11/index.htm He was also the proud owner of a VAX-11/750, among other computers: http://marc.cleave.me.uk/collection.htm He was self-taught in many skills, including electronics, and had natural gifts as an engineer. Around the age of 14 he designed an 8-bit TTL CPU, which he called "Titan". You can read more here: http://marc.cleave.me.uk/cpu/ & https://github.com/bootnecklad/Titan-Specifications The machine was wire-wrapped and soldered with his trademark meticulous care, as you can see from the photos on the first site linked. Here is a picture of Marc with some of his favourite machines (Titan in the background): http://i.imgur.com/CCinlCS.jpeg Many people knew him on irc, as "bootnecklad" or "bnl", in the #classiccmp Freenode channel and elsewhere. His sense of humour was unique, sparkling and irreverent. Aside from his electronics and retrocomputing interests, he restored his beloved Range Rover Classic over a long period and finally got it roadworthy in 2016. He was a perfectionist in this project as in everything else. Most recently Marc was a Electronic and Computer Engineering student at the University of Nottingham. He will be painfully missed by very many people. --Toby From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Wed Jan 17 17:32:13 2018 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 23:32:13 +0000 Subject: Passing of a valued member In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87d128ysci.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Thank you Toby, for posting this, and for putting me in touch with Marc in the first place. I first met Marc in person at a talk at our university from Brian Kernighan. While I nervously asked bwk to sign my copy of C, Marc had no trouble initiating a conversation wit him. Marc managed to persuade bwk to sign his 11/70 front panel, which he had brought along with him in his backpack. "The good old days - Brian Kernighan" Our friendship developed rapidly, and we have spoken every day until his passing about a variety of topics - the main one of course being PDP-11s. Marc helped me source my first PDP, he also picked it up and delivered it to me. We had many fun times together, trying to fix things, and unfortunately in some cases making things worse, for which I blame the beer. Marc was incredibly intelligent. I looked up to him, despite being a similar age. It's hard for me to explain how much he meant to me, and how much I am going to miss him. I know many others are feeling the same way. I miss you buddy. Aaron. Toby Thain via cctalk writes: > To the list: > > It is with deep personal sadness that I write that young list member > Marc Grenville-Cleave, of Dorset UK, has passed away. He was known > personally to several list members. > > I did not have the pleasure of meeting him in person but as he was a > longtime friend I wanted to write a brief celebration of his life and > interests. > > Most relevant to this list, Marc was an avid DEC collector and PDP-11 > enthusiast and rescuer: http://marc.cleave.me.uk//pdp11/index.htm > He was also the proud owner of a VAX-11/750, among other computers: > http://marc.cleave.me.uk/collection.htm > > He was self-taught in many skills, including electronics, and had > natural gifts as an engineer. Around the age of 14 he designed an 8-bit > TTL CPU, which he called "Titan". You can read more here: > http://marc.cleave.me.uk/cpu/ & > https://github.com/bootnecklad/Titan-Specifications > The machine was wire-wrapped and soldered with his trademark meticulous > care, as you can see from the photos on the first site linked. > > Here is a picture of Marc with some of his favourite machines (Titan in > the background): http://i.imgur.com/CCinlCS.jpeg > > Many people knew him on irc, as "bootnecklad" or "bnl", in the > #classiccmp Freenode channel and elsewhere. His sense of humour was > unique, sparkling and irreverent. > > Aside from his electronics and retrocomputing interests, he restored his > beloved Range Rover Classic over a long period and finally got it > roadworthy in 2016. He was a perfectionist in this project as in > everything else. > > Most recently Marc was a Electronic and Computer Engineering student at > the University of Nottingham. > > He will be painfully missed by very many people. > > --Toby -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 17 17:55:16 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 15:55:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Malware history was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: <6be986ea-2367-4a8b-e27c-05b148d3391b@sydex.com> References: <5a5e9863.c1abca0a.41386.9b04@mx.google.com> <6be986ea-2367-4a8b-e27c-05b148d3391b@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> I used to have a tiny portable manual card punch. >> An acquaintance used it to punch /* in the first two columns of his >> punchcard based utility bills.?? (those characters have special meaning >> to 360 JCL.? They have multiple punches per column, so it required >> making a punch, then backspacing to make the other punch(es)) On Wed, 17 Jan 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > /* = end of data set > /& = end of job > One wonders how a S/360 "C" compiler might deal with this. Preceding it > with a space might do the trick. Yes, it would, but how would you get 100% compliance wiht no mistakes from PROGRAMMERS? A 360 s'posedly COULD be told to ignore, or to respond to something else, but that wasn't usually available. Accordinglyly, when we needed to use a 360 to duplicate a deck that had JCL cards, we would turn the source/data deck upside down. (hope that it didn't have '/' in column 80?) From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 17 18:34:35 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 19:34:35 -0500 Subject: Malware history was: Spectre & Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <5a5e9863.c1abca0a.41386.9b04@mx.google.com> <6be986ea-2367-4a8b-e27c-05b148d3391b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <52C16D16-CB41-400B-94D2-0CC94EAFB579@comcast.net> > On Jan 17, 2018, at 6:55 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> I used to have a tiny portable manual card punch. >>> An acquaintance used it to punch /* in the first two columns of his >>> punchcard based utility bills. (those characters have special meaning >>> to 360 JCL. They have multiple punches per column, so it required >>> making a punch, then backspacing to make the other punch(es)) > > On Wed, 17 Jan 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> /* = end of data set >> /& = end of job >> One wonders how a S/360 "C" compiler might deal with this. Preceding it >> with a space might do the trick. > > Yes, it would, but how would you get 100% compliance wiht no mistakes from PROGRAMMERS? > > A 360 s'posedly COULD be told to ignore, or to respond to something else, but that wasn't usually available. // DD DATA would ignore // in cols 1,2, but not /*. I found // DD DATA,DLM='@@' -- not sure when that appeared. I don't remember it from my OS/360 dabblings. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 14:26:10 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 15:26:10 -0500 Subject: help id a chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 1:21 PM, Anders Nelson via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > What does it do? It's pretty. > > =] > > Not sure, I have a bunch of items that need to be investigated including that one. http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/ b From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Wed Jan 17 14:33:42 2018 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 14:33:42 -0600 Subject: Weird thing ID (core stack?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5e0bfc4c-651f-06bc-789c-22d534146f05@figureeightbrewing.com> Yep, looks like a CDC stack. --tom On 1/17/18 2:24 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > An acquiantance was wondering about more details on this part: > > https://imgur.com/a/p1GQ2 > > It seems to be a core memory stack? But of what type? CDC? > > Any info appreciated. > --Toby > From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Jan 17 14:43:34 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 12:43:34 -0800 Subject: help id a chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK it is coming back to me, if I remember correctly these were used in the B80 which were or were to be a replacement for the L/TC family there were either 5 or 8 of them that made up the CPU On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 12:14 PM, Mike Stein via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The L & TC series (among others?) used a number of those chips; I *might* > even be able to look up what it did but I doubt that it'd be useful > information ;-) > > m > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pete Lancashire via cctech" > To: "william degnan" ; "General Discussion: > On-Topic Posts" > Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 1:19 PM > Subject: Re: help id a chip > > > > Burroughs > > > > One has to love the 1/8" spacing. > > > > I have a box of them from when I worked there. I may even have one of the > > very rare test sockets. > > > > The division I was in was considering using the technology. I can't > > remember what actually used them. Way too long ago. > > The plant I was in built the B7xx family. > > > > I > > > > -pete > > > > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 10:05 AM, william degnan via cctech < > > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Can someone tell me what chip this is? > >> > >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010114.JPG > >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010093.JPG > >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010094.JPG > >> > >> (note ..94/94 show the item in a sealed in storage material) > >> > >> the underside consists of 4 sets of 12 pins plus the corner 3 pins, as > >> shown on the top of the chip. > >> > >> thanks > >> > >> > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 14:46:52 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 15:46:52 -0500 Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation References: <2dd9851b-164c-53ee-5572-5eebfeed0346@bonedaddy.net> <3d5f4aaf-f4e3-e725-5042-025d3ff2627c@skynet.be> <892ce1fc-6cb7-cb17-3a39-db4e9da9e61d@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Are there any better pictures around of the B20/21/22 ? If not, I think I still have some brochures somewhere. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Perry via cctech" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 2:02 PM Subject: Re: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation > Are you sure? > > The B20, B21, B22 looked like this - > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102662660 - and > nothing like the 3B1 or the S/50. The B25 and subsequent models (which > are often referred to as B20s) are modular systems that are box-shaped > and got wider as "slices" were added. The B20s were x86-based and the > 3B1 (and presumably the CT S/50) was 68k-based. > > alan > > > On 1/17/18 2:41 AM, Dominique Carlier via cctech wrote: >> It's interesting, I had exactly the same machine a long time ago, but >> with a different label. It was a Burroughs B20 distributed by Unisys >> >> Dominique >> >> On 17/01/2018 06:45, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: >>> Did it happen to be one of these older-style Convergent AWS machines? >>> >>> http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2017/03/convergent-technologies-workstation.html >>> >>> >>> > From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Jan 17 14:46:21 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 12:46:21 -0800 Subject: help id a chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Found it !! http://www.picklesnet.com/burroughs/gallery/bpgb80.htm 4th picture top row. Yikes that was long ago -pete On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 12:43 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > OK it is coming back to me, if I remember correctly these were used in the > B80 which were or were to be a replacement for the L/TC family > there were either 5 or 8 of them that made up the CPU > > > > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 12:14 PM, Mike Stein via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> The L & TC series (among others?) used a number of those chips; I *might* >> even be able to look up what it did but I doubt that it'd be useful >> information ;-) >> >> m >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Pete Lancashire via cctech" >> To: "william degnan" ; "General Discussion: >> On-Topic Posts" >> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 1:19 PM >> Subject: Re: help id a chip >> >> >> > Burroughs >> > >> > One has to love the 1/8" spacing. >> > >> > I have a box of them from when I worked there. I may even have one of >> the >> > very rare test sockets. >> > >> > The division I was in was considering using the technology. I can't >> > remember what actually used them. Way too long ago. >> > The plant I was in built the B7xx family. >> > >> > I >> > >> > -pete >> > >> > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 10:05 AM, william degnan via cctech < >> > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> >> Can someone tell me what chip this is? >> >> >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010114.JPG >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010093.JPG >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010094.JPG >> >> >> >> (note ..94/94 show the item in a sealed in storage material) >> >> >> >> the underside consists of 4 sets of 12 pins plus the corner 3 pins, as >> >> shown on the top of the chip. >> >> >> >> thanks >> >> >> >> >> >> > From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 14:51:28 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 15:51:28 -0500 Subject: help id a chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fantastic, thanks. Bill On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:46 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Found it !! > > http://www.picklesnet.com/burroughs/gallery/bpgb80.htm > > 4th picture top row. > > Yikes that was long ago > > -pete > > > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 12:43 PM, Pete Lancashire > > wrote: > > > OK it is coming back to me, if I remember correctly these were used in > the > > B80 which were or were to be a replacement for the L/TC family > > there were either 5 or 8 of them that made up the CPU > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 12:14 PM, Mike Stein via cctech < > > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> The L & TC series (among others?) used a number of those chips; I > *might* > >> even be able to look up what it did but I doubt that it'd be useful > >> information ;-) > >> > >> m > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Pete Lancashire via cctech" > >> To: "william degnan" ; "General Discussion: > >> On-Topic Posts" > >> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 1:19 PM > >> Subject: Re: help id a chip > >> > >> > >> > Burroughs > >> > > >> > One has to love the 1/8" spacing. > >> > > >> > I have a box of them from when I worked there. I may even have one of > >> the > >> > very rare test sockets. > >> > > >> > The division I was in was considering using the technology. I can't > >> > remember what actually used them. Way too long ago. > >> > The plant I was in built the B7xx family. > >> > > >> > I > >> > > >> > -pete > >> > > >> > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 10:05 AM, william degnan via cctech < > >> > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Can someone tell me what chip this is? > >> >> > >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010114.JPG > >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010093.JPG > >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010094.JPG > >> >> > >> >> (note ..94/94 show the item in a sealed in storage material) > >> >> > >> >> the underside consists of 4 sets of 12 pins plus the corner 3 pins, > as > >> >> shown on the top of the chip. > >> >> > >> >> thanks > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > > > From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Jan 17 14:59:38 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 12:59:38 -0800 Subject: help id a chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Welcome. I miss my couple years at "Big B", great people to work with. Many of us though if this bozo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Michael_Blumenthal had not taken over Burroughs could still have made it. -pete On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 12:51 PM, william degnan wrote: > Fantastic, thanks. > Bill > > > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:46 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Found it !! >> >> http://www.picklesnet.com/burroughs/gallery/bpgb80.htm >> >> 4th picture top row. >> >> Yikes that was long ago >> >> -pete >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 12:43 PM, Pete Lancashire < >> pete at petelancashire.com> >> wrote: >> >> > OK it is coming back to me, if I remember correctly these were used in >> the >> > B80 which were or were to be a replacement for the L/TC family >> > there were either 5 or 8 of them that made up the CPU >> > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 12:14 PM, Mike Stein via cctech < >> > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> >> The L & TC series (among others?) used a number of those chips; I >> *might* >> >> even be able to look up what it did but I doubt that it'd be useful >> >> information ;-) >> >> >> >> m >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Pete Lancashire via cctech" >> >> To: "william degnan" ; "General Discussion: >> >> On-Topic Posts" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 1:19 PM >> >> Subject: Re: help id a chip >> >> >> >> >> >> > Burroughs >> >> > >> >> > One has to love the 1/8" spacing. >> >> > >> >> > I have a box of them from when I worked there. I may even have one of >> >> the >> >> > very rare test sockets. >> >> > >> >> > The division I was in was considering using the technology. I can't >> >> > remember what actually used them. Way too long ago. >> >> > The plant I was in built the B7xx family. >> >> > >> >> > I >> >> > >> >> > -pete >> >> > >> >> > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 10:05 AM, william degnan via cctech < >> >> > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Can someone tell me what chip this is? >> >> >> >> >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010114.JPG >> >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010093.JPG >> >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010094.JPG >> >> >> >> >> >> (note ..94/94 show the item in a sealed in storage material) >> >> >> >> >> >> the underside consists of 4 sets of 12 pins plus the corner 3 pins, >> as >> >> >> shown on the top of the chip. >> >> >> >> >> >> thanks >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 15:05:40 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 16:05:40 -0500 Subject: help id a chip References: Message-ID: <35DD6B448C9D430A9CD1E75BCED353A0@310e2> Yes; I first saw that package used in Series L machines and the B80 was effectively an L9000 with disk drives. m ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Lancashire To: Mike Stein ; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 3:46 PM Subject: Re: help id a chip Found it !! http://www.picklesnet.com/burroughs/gallery/bpgb80.htm 4th picture top row. Yikes that was long ago -pete On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 12:43 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: OK it is coming back to me, if I remember correctly these were used in the B80 which were or were to be a replacement for the L/TC family there were either 5 or 8 of them that made up the CPU On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 12:14 PM, Mike Stein via cctech wrote: The L & TC series (among others?) used a number of those chips; I *might* even be able to look up what it did but I doubt that it'd be useful information ;-) m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Lancashire via cctech" To: "william degnan" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 1:19 PM Subject: Re: help id a chip > Burroughs > > One has to love the 1/8" spacing. > > I have a box of them from when I worked there. I may even have one of the > very rare test sockets. > > The division I was in was considering using the technology. I can't > remember what actually used them. Way too long ago. > The plant I was in built the B7xx family. > > I > > -pete > > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 10:05 AM, william degnan via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Can someone tell me what chip this is? >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010114.JPG >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010093.JPG >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010094.JPG >> >> (note ..94/94 show the item in a sealed in storage material) >> >> the underside consists of 4 sets of 12 pins plus the corner 3 pins, as >> shown on the top of the chip. >> >> thanks >> >> From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Jan 17 15:10:01 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 13:10:01 -0800 Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation In-Reply-To: References: <2dd9851b-164c-53ee-5572-5eebfeed0346@bonedaddy.net> <3d5f4aaf-f4e3-e725-5042-025d3ff2627c@skynet.be> <892ce1fc-6cb7-cb17-3a39-db4e9da9e61d@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <8F62EBAB-BF15-418C-8DFB-47DF95169DBF@snowmoose.com> There is a link with a photo in my post that you replied to. Here is another photo link - https://www.betaarchive.com/wiki/images/d/db/Windowsbyte27_%28Burroughs_B20%29.png Here is a link to a B25 type system - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/CTOS-B25.JPG/250px-CTOS-B25.JPG My first job out of college was working at Burroughs on their mainframe-?PC? integration products. alan > On Jan 17, 2018, at 12:46 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > Are there any better pictures around of the B20/21/22 ? If not, I think I still have some brochures somewhere. > > m > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Perry via cctech" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 2:02 PM > Subject: Re: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation > > >> Are you sure? >> >> The B20, B21, B22 looked like this - >> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102662660 - and >> nothing like the 3B1 or the S/50. The B25 and subsequent models (which >> are often referred to as B20s) are modular systems that are box-shaped >> and got wider as "slices" were added. The B20s were x86-based and the >> 3B1 (and presumably the CT S/50) was 68k-based. >> >> alan >> >> >>> On 1/17/18 2:41 AM, Dominique Carlier via cctech wrote: >>> It's interesting, I had exactly the same machine a long time ago, but >>> with a different label. It was a Burroughs B20 distributed by Unisys >>> >>> Dominique >>> >>>> On 17/01/2018 06:45, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: >>>> Did it happen to be one of these older-style Convergent AWS machines? >>>> >>>> http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2017/03/convergent-technologies-workstation.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >> From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 15:14:45 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 16:14:45 -0500 Subject: help id a chip References: Message-ID: <04B6CF379E7945B395BA90DCEF3C0D38@310e2> Agreed; unfortunately an all too common story in the tech business world (see e.g. CBM, MCM etc.). Surprised HP survived Fiorina. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Lancashire via cctech" To: "william degnan" Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 3:59 PM Subject: Re: help id a chip > Welcome. > > I miss my couple years at "Big B", great people to work with. Many of us > though if this bozo > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Michael_Blumenthal > > had not taken over Burroughs could still have made it. > > -pete > > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 12:51 PM, william degnan > wrote: > >> Fantastic, thanks. >> Bill >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:46 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctech < >> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Found it !! >>> >>> http://www.picklesnet.com/burroughs/gallery/bpgb80.htm >>> >>> 4th picture top row. >>> >>> Yikes that was long ago >>> >>> -pete >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 12:43 PM, Pete Lancashire < >>> pete at petelancashire.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > OK it is coming back to me, if I remember correctly these were used in >>> the >>> > B80 which were or were to be a replacement for the L/TC family >>> > there were either 5 or 8 of them that made up the CPU >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 12:14 PM, Mike Stein via cctech < >>> > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> > >>> >> The L & TC series (among others?) used a number of those chips; I >>> *might* >>> >> even be able to look up what it did but I doubt that it'd be useful >>> >> information ;-) >>> >> >>> >> m >>> >> >>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> From: "Pete Lancashire via cctech" >>> >> To: "william degnan" ; "General Discussion: >>> >> On-Topic Posts" >>> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 1:19 PM >>> >> Subject: Re: help id a chip >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> > Burroughs >>> >> > >>> >> > One has to love the 1/8" spacing. >>> >> > >>> >> > I have a box of them from when I worked there. I may even have one of >>> >> the >>> >> > very rare test sockets. >>> >> > >>> >> > The division I was in was considering using the technology. I can't >>> >> > remember what actually used them. Way too long ago. >>> >> > The plant I was in built the B7xx family. >>> >> > >>> >> > I >>> >> > >>> >> > -pete >>> >> > >>> >> > On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 10:05 AM, william degnan via cctech < >>> >> > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >> > >>> >> >> Can someone tell me what chip this is? >>> >> >> >>> >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010114.JPG >>> >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010093.JPG >>> >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/P1010094.JPG >>> >> >> >>> >> >> (note ..94/94 show the item in a sealed in storage material) >>> >> >> >>> >> >> the underside consists of 4 sets of 12 pins plus the corner 3 pins, >>> as >>> >> >> shown on the top of the chip. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> thanks >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> >> >> From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Jan 17 19:49:09 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 17:49:09 -0800 Subject: Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation In-Reply-To: <6b3f5cb6-69f7-7fe8-ffdb-b877be247afb@skynet.be> References: <2dd9851b-164c-53ee-5572-5eebfeed0346@bonedaddy.net> <3d5f4aaf-f4e3-e725-5042-025d3ff2627c@skynet.be> <892ce1fc-6cb7-cb17-3a39-db4e9da9e61d@snowmoose.com> <6b3f5cb6-69f7-7fe8-ffdb-b877be247afb@skynet.be> Message-ID: <84c58df3-2c2e-1760-bd4a-c2bcc96a7912@snowmoose.com> As I mentioned elsewhere, I worked on software for them at Burroughs ('86-'89). I picked up a bunch of B25 stuff in '03, but I could never find any software for them. In retrospect, I wish that I has stashed away B25 (and B1000 (I was one of the last people in the office supporting software on the B1000)) stuff, rather than return everything, when I left the company. alan On 1/17/18 11:22 AM, Dominique Carlier via cctech wrote: > You're right, the machine I owned is the one I see from your link. The > workstation you mentioned is in the same box but with a monitor and > the location of the clips and led slightly different. > But I was not far ;-) I don't remember what kind of hardware was > exactly in this machine. Shame on me, I got rid of it, it was the > pre-internet era, I had no hope to repair and reinstall this machine, > it would be different today: - / > > > On 17/01/2018 20:02, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: >> Are you sure? >> >> The B20, B21, B22 looked like this - >> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102662660 - and >> nothing like the 3B1 or the S/50. The B25 and subsequent models >> (which are often referred to as B20s) are modular systems that are >> box-shaped and got wider as "slices" were added. The B20s were >> x86-based and the 3B1 (and presumably the CT S/50) was 68k-based. >> >> alan >> >> >> On 1/17/18 2:41 AM, Dominique Carlier via cctech wrote: >>> It's interesting, I had exactly the same machine a long time ago, >>> but with a different label. It was a Burroughs B20 distributed by >>> Unisys >>> >>> Dominique >>> >>> On 17/01/2018 06:45, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: >>>> Did it happen to be one of these older-style Convergent AWS machines? >>>> >>>> http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2017/03/convergent-technologies-workstation.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jan 18 03:13:45 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:13:45 +0100 (CET) Subject: help id a chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jan 2018, william degnan wrote: > Not sure, I have a bunch of items that need to be investigated including > that one. > http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/ > b Well, two objects are obvious ;-) P1010070.JPG is the program drum for an IBM 29 card punch (and similar models) P1010126.JPG is the clock generator module for an LGP-30 Christian From microtechdart at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 04:23:59 2018 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 02:23:59 -0800 Subject: Convergent AWS machines (formerly Sold on eBay: Convergent Technologies S/50 a.k.a. Unix PC, AT&T 3B1 Unix Workstation) Message-ID: Alan, my apologies for the confusion here. The email subject still said S/50, but I believe we had switched topics mid-thread. On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 6:16 AM, dwight wrote: > Years ago, we used one of the Convergent machines. I recall playing rats > on it. It had a green screen. It was a 8086 processor and had some > Multibus slots in it. > I was replying to Dwight with a link to my AWS machine when Dominique chipped in with the Burrows comment. I believe that Dominique was referring to my AWS that I show at http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2017/03/convergent-technolog ies-workstation.html And I agree with you wholeheartedly on your points. They look nothing alike, and are based on totally different processors. |Alan Perry via cctech | |As I mentioned elsewhere, I worked on software for them at Burroughs ('86-'89). I |picked up a bunch of B25 stuff in '03, but I could never find any software for |them. In retrospect, I wish that I has stashed away B25 (and B1000 (I was one |of the last people in the office supporting software onthe B1000)) stuff, rather |than return everything, when I left the company. | |alan That's very cool that you worked on the software. And, yes, Alan, agreed about wishing to keep a few of them around...But, I may be able to get the one that I have running soon. I'll be working on it on and off this year. I plan on trying trying to restore the Convergent CTOS on this, rather than the Burroughs BTOS, at least at first anyway... I'll keep you posted here on my progress on that. Thanks, all! Best, -AJ On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 11:02 AM, Alan Perry via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Are you sure? > > The B20, B21, B22 looked like this - http://www.computerhistory.org > /collections/catalog/102662660 - and nothing like the 3B1 or the S/50. > The B25 and subsequent models (which are often referred to as B20s) are > modular systems that are box-shaped and got wider as "slices" were added. > The B20s were x86-based and the 3B1 (and presumably the CT S/50) was > 68k-based. > > alan > > > On 1/17/18 2:41 AM, Dominique Carlier via cctech wrote: > >> It's interesting, I had exactly the same machine a long time ago, but >> with a different label. It was a Burroughs B20 distributed by Unisys >> >> Dominique >> >> On 17/01/2018 06:45, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Did it happen to be one of these older-style Convergent AWS machines? >>> >>> http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2017/03/convergent-technolog >>> ies-workstation.html >>> >>> >>> > - From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 04:37:21 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 05:37:21 -0500 Subject: help id a chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2018 4:13 AM, "Christian Corti via cctalk" wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Jan 2018, william degnan wrote: >> >> Not sure, I have a bunch of items that need to be investigated including >> that one. >> http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Objects/ >> b > > > Well, two objects are obvious ;-) > > P1010070.JPG is the program drum for an IBM 29 card punch (and similar models) > > P1010126.JPG is the clock generator module for an LGP-30 > > Christian I would never have guessed LGP-30. Very much appreciated. I am glad I asked. Bill From lars at nocrew.org Thu Jan 18 06:13:59 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 12:13:59 +0000 Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: <20180109133609.BA29618C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa via cctalk's message of "Tue, 9 Jan 2018 08:36:09 -0500 (EST)") References: <20180109133609.BA29618C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7wmv1be54o.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa wrote: > Well.... The "decsystem10 System Reference Manual (DEC-10-XSRMA-A-D) - > available online: > > http://bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-10-XSRMA-A-D%20DECsystem10%20System%20Reference%20Manual.pdf > > has a definition for the -10 side of the interface on pages C-21 and > following (page 365 of the PDF). I have taken a quick look at this, and also the Rubin 10-11 interface that was used on MIT-AI. So far they look similar. Was there a chance one inspired the other? From systems.glitch at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 09:46:49 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:46:49 -0500 Subject: New TestFDC Results Registry Message-ID: I'd been trying to reach Dave Dunfield with new TestFDC results since apparently August with no results. So, I wrote a new TestFDC registry into my site: https://services.theglitchworks.net/ng/testfdc_results This registry currently includes Dave's last registry update from 2007. There's now a form for entering your results, you can find it as a link from the registry, or here: https://services.theglitchworks.net/ng/testfdc_results/new Result submissions have to be manually approved currently so that the registry doesn't get spammed. Text export forthcoming. Any suggestions welcome! Moderators, if someone wants to sticky this (here or in other forums), I think this would be a valuable resource for anyone wanting to use ImageDisk on non-PC formats. Thanks, Jonathan From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jan 18 10:11:29 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:11:29 -0600 Subject: help id a chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A60C731.3070405@pico-systems.com> On 01/18/2018 04:37 AM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: P1010110 is an IBM SLT card out of a 360 or 1800 computer. P1010112 is same thing from different angle. Jon From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Jan 18 11:27:47 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:27:47 -0700 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: References: <20180117124026.CF72D18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2d22ed1e-28e6-c250-79da-da2434e49637@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 01/17/2018 01:12 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: > So here's a real example: I have an HP 3000 Micro GX with MPE G.A3.09 > (V-delta-9) which is very 1990. And it has a LANIC, and V-delta-9 is > late enough for it to be able to do IP over Ethernet (vs. V-delta-4 and > before which could only do IEEE over 802.3). And it has an FTP client. Please clarify what you mean by "IP over Ethernet", specifically what frame type? Are you talking about Ethernet II frames? > So you might think I'd be able to move files between it and a modern > FreeBSD box, right? I mean, it's all just Ethernet, right? Ethernet != Ethernet I'm wondering if it might be possible to use an old NetWare 4.x / 5.x box as a router to convert from one Ethernet frame type to another Ethernet frame type. I.e. from IP over Ethernet II frames to IP over 802.3 frames. I actually don't know if Linux can do this or not. My typical go to tool might not help here. :-/ > Where it falls apart is that there's a bug in HP's TCP/IP ("NS Transport") > in V-delta-9 and before, such that it tears down the connection with > a failure if a packet is received with IP type-of-service not zero. > And the FreeBSD FTP server sets a socket option that gets FreeBSD to > send that sort of packet. > > At a previous employer, I went round with HP a bit on behalf of a mutual > customer and got HP to issue a patch for NS Transport that corrects > this behavior on the MPE side. Clearly, I don't have that patch on > this system. I think we all have experiences like that. Some sort of custom code that we didn't care about at the time (beyond fixing the problem) that we would now like to get our hands on years later. > FreeBSD is FreeBSD, and I can build its FTP server from source and > change it so it works in this situation; but I think this should give > y'all some idea of the hilarity that can ensue when you exhume a 1980s > TCP/IP and put it on your network. I wonder if there are other tricks that can be used to work around this without needing to recompile services. I.e. use IPTables (or FreeBSD's counterpart that I don't know the name of) to change the type-of-service to something other than 0. Here's a link with a lot of gory details on NetWare's support of multiple Ethernet frame types. Link - Migrating Ethernet Frame Types from 802.3 Raw to IEEE 802.2 - https://support.novell.com/techcenter/articles/ana19930905.html Here are the four frame types that NetWare supports: - Ethernet II - I think this is what we are using for just about everything today. - IEEE 802.3 "raw" - I'm speculating that this is the frame type that Frank is referring to above. - IEEE 802.3 with 802.2 - IEEE 802.3 with 802.2 SNAP I /think/ that NetWare can bind IP to all four Ethernet frame types. Hopefully one of them is compatible with V-delta-4 and before. Obviously addressing would be a concern. - I want to do some more digging to see if NetWare supports any form of Proxy ARP. Hopefully Proxy ARP support would allow us to form proto bridges to extend the classful /A or /B or /C networks that the desired nodes are in. I'm happy to ponder some more scheming and networking black magic if people are interested. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Jan 18 11:39:10 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:39:10 -0700 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <20180117183300.9DEDA18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180117183300.9DEDA18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 01/17/2018 11:33 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > This just a guess, but 'sort of'? It is TCP/IPv4, so it's got compatible > headers, but I don't know if other parts have changed enough to make it > not work. Are you referring to the 802.3 Ethernet (vs Ethernet II) frame type that Frank mentioned? > E.g. it probably only supports class A addresses, for instance, which > is going to influence the code for picking the first-hop router. I was not aware that there was code that supported /only/ Class A (/8) addresses and /not/ Class B (/16) or Class C (/24) addresses. I /thought/ that everything was either classful (as in supports all three classes: A, B, and C) or classless (as in supports CIDR). Is my networking history missing something else? Also, do any of the systems that people want to emulate have conflicting classful networks? - Read: Were any of the systems that people want to emulate on the same classful network? If all the systems that people want to emulate are on different classful networks, it should be relatively trivial to interconnect them. > Also, the only driver is, IIRC, for an ARPANET interface. Please clarify for this n00b what you mean by ARPANET interface? Are you referring to host specific hardware that was used to communicate with an IMP? Do the necessary emulators support the ARPANET interface? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 12:00:13 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 11:00:13 -0700 Subject: IP address classes vs CIDR (was Re: Reviving ARPAnet) Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 10:39 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I was not aware that there was code that supported /only/ Class A (/8) > addresses and /not/ Class B (/16) or Class C (/24) addresses. > > I /thought/ that everything was either classful (as in supports all three > classes: A, B, and C) or classless (as in supports CIDR). > Years ago I added a configurable "bozo-arp" feature to the Telebit NetBlazer router, which would respond to ARP requests for non-local addresses and reply with the router's MAC address (on that interface), specifically in order to make classful-only hosts work on a CIDR network. Later someone paid me to write a NetBSD daemon ("anyipd") to do the same thing, though for an entirely different reason. Recently I've needed that functionality on Linux, as I have multiple old systems that only understand classful, including the AT&T UnixPC (7300 or 3B1). I suppose I should rewrite and open-source it. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 18 12:08:00 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 13:08:00 -0500 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <2d22ed1e-28e6-c250-79da-da2434e49637@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20180117124026.CF72D18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2d22ed1e-28e6-c250-79da-da2434e49637@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <6C7A3117-CB7A-43B0-82D0-324B5A328BF0@comcast.net> > On Jan 18, 2018, at 12:27 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 01/17/2018 01:12 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: > ... >> So you might think I'd be able to move files between it and a modern FreeBSD box, right? I mean, it's all just Ethernet, right? > > Ethernet != Ethernet > > I'm wondering if it might be possible to use an old NetWare 4.x / 5.x box as a router to convert from one Ethernet frame type to another Ethernet frame type. I.e. from IP over Ethernet II frames to IP over 802.3 frames. I didn't know there's any such thing as IP over 802.3. There's IP over 802.2 (LLC) which is used for things like FDDI, but it would be weird to attempt that on Ethernet. > ... > Here are the four frame types that NetWare supports: > > - Ethernet II > - I think this is what we are using for just about everything today. > - IEEE 802.3 "raw" > - I'm speculating that this is the frame type that Frank is referring to above. That's the infamous non-compliant mess Netware came up with by not understanding the 802 standard. It's never valid to run "raw 802.3" -- the only correct usage is 802.2 (LLC n for some n) over a MAC layer like 802.3 or FDDI. SNAP is essentially an additional muxing layer on top of 802.2. paul From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jan 18 11:53:18 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 17:53:18 +0000 (WET) Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <2d22ed1e-28e6-c250-79da-da2434e49637@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20180117124026.CF72D18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <01QO03W58E5A003AC7@beyondthepale.ie> > > Here's a link with a lot of gory details on NetWare's support of > multiple Ethernet frame types. > > Link - Migrating Ethernet Frame Types from 802.3 Raw to IEEE 802.2 > - https://support.novell.com/techcenter/articles/ana19930905.html > > Here are the four frame types that NetWare supports: > > - Ethernet II > - I think this is what we are using for just about everything today. > - IEEE 802.3 "raw" > - I'm speculating that this is the frame type that Frank is referring to above. I thought that what Novell refers to as "IEEE 802.3 raw" was an early day foulup on their part where they put IPX data directly into IEEE 802.3 frames with nothing to indicate what protocol was being transported. It became a problem because lots of people whose first experience of networking was a Novell Netware server used it because it was the default frame type, making life difficult for them when they wanted to add other protocols to their network later on. > > - IEEE 802.3 with 802.2 > - IEEE 802.3 with 802.2 SNAP > The above are what they should have used instead of IEEE 802.3 "raw" if they really wanted to fly the 802.3 flag. As far as I know, anyone who wanted everything to work just used Ethernet II (and 802.3 / 802.2 SNAP if they also wanted Appletalk support). I don't thing IEEE 802.3 with 802.2 and no SNAP was very useful because of the limited number of protocols it could be used to specify. > > I /think/ that NetWare can bind IP to all four Ethernet frame types. > Hopefully one of them is compatible with V-delta-4 and before. > Maybe, if V-delta-4 and before used IEEE 802.3 with 802.2 but I doubt if anyone other than Novell used what they called IEEE 802.3 "raw". Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Jan 18 12:18:36 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 11:18:36 -0700 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <01QO03W58E5A003AC7@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20180117124026.CF72D18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01QO03W58E5A003AC7@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 01/18/2018 10:53 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > I thought that what Novell refers to as "IEEE 802.3 raw" was an early day > foulup on their part where they put IPX data directly into IEEE 802.3 > frames with nothing to indicate what protocol was being transported. That's my understanding as well. It's also my understanding that they made this decision prior to the standards we use today existed. - So, assuming my understanding is correct, I don't fault them for betting on the wrong option. > It became a problem because lots of people whose first experience of > networking was a Novell Netware server used it because it was the default > frame type, making life difficult for them when they wanted to add other > protocols to their network later on. Agreed. > The above are what they should have used instead of IEEE 802.3 "raw" > if they really wanted to fly the 802.3 flag. I don't know that Novell /wanted/ to fly the 802.3 flag. I think they just wanted something that worked. Purportedly, standards didn't exist yet, or weren't widely adopted, and they made a decision. Granted, in retrospect it was the wrong decision. But it did work for them at the time. > As far as I know, anyone who wanted everything to work just used Ethernet > II (and 802.3 / 802.2 SNAP if they also wanted Appletalk support). > I don't thing IEEE 802.3 with 802.2 and no SNAP was very useful because > of the limited number of protocols it could be used to specify. Agreed. Though most of this is related to having multiple protocols on the same network segment / broadcast domain. - It's also my understanding that most businesses had multiple disconnected networks (likely using different physical technology) that had their native protocol(s) and didn't inter operate with each other. > Maybe, if V-delta-4 and before used IEEE 802.3 with 802.2 but I doubt > if anyone other than Novell used what they called IEEE 802.3 "raw". Fair enough. I don't have any information to refute that. - So I modify my statement to be "I wonder if NetWare 4.x / 5.x can route IP between (what Novell called) 802.2 and Ethernet II. ;-) My desire is to find a way to interconnect between the existing protocols & frame types without needing to modify things on hosts. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 18 12:27:29 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 13:27:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Reviving ARPAnet Message-ID: <20180118182729.2220E18C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Grant Taylor >> It is TCP/IPv4, so it's got compatible headers > Are you referring to the 802.3 Ethernet (vs Ethernet II) frame type No, I meant the IP and TCP headers. Those are end-end; the Ethernet stuff is just a local wrapping, and can be substituted. > I was not aware that there was code that supported /only/ Class A (/8) > addresses and /not/ Class B (/16) or Class C (/24) addresses. > I /thought/ that everything was either classful (as in supports all > three classes: A, B, and C) or classless (as in supports CIDR). > Is my networking history missing something else? Yes. There was a stage before A/B/C. See RFC-760. > Please clarify ... what you mean by ARPANET interface? Are you > referring to host specific hardware that was used to communicate > with an IMP? Basically, yes. The ARPANET supported several different kinds of interfaces between the IMPs (the switching nodes in the ARPANET) and hosts, but the 'usual' one was either 'Local Host' (LH) or 'Distant Host' (DH) which were _basically_ identical except at the very lowest level - LH was TTL, and DH was differential pair. Those interfaces were a custom bit-serial thing with a handshake (with "there's-your-bit", "ready-for-next-bit" lines, etc); see BBN Report #1822: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/bbn/imp/BBN1822_Jan1976.pdf So the "ARPANET interface" in the host is a piece of custom hardware (some were DMA; I also used one which was interrupt per byte) which went on the host, which talked 1822 (as it was called), of either the DH or LH physical form. (There was also an Host/IMP interface called VDH, but that used a modem, and a _lot_of software; see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Network_Control_Program#Layer_locations for a bit more about it.) > Do the necessary emulators support the ARPANET interface? Dunno, but they shouldn't be too hard to add. The real problem is going to be 'what do you hook the simulated ARPANET interfaces up to, and how'? I know they have IMP code running in simulators: http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/pipermail/simh/2013-November/007672.html but I dunno how one would hook _that_ simulation up to a simulated host running a simulated ARPANET interface. Easier, to get this old TCP/IP running, might be to write a Unix V6 driver for an Ethernet card (one the simulators do support - I know Ersatz-11 does the Interlan NI1010A/2010A, which is nice and simple) and write an Ethernet network interface module for that TCP, which talks to said driver; i.e. just replace the ARPANET interface stuff completely. Noel From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Jan 18 12:35:57 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 11:35:57 -0700 Subject: IP address classes vs CIDR (was Re: Reviving ARPAnet) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <285bf367-1be0-f4fa-4678-b3ea198bc593@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 01/18/2018 11:00 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Years ago I added a configurable "bozo-arp" feature to the Telebit > NetBlazer router, which would respond to ARP requests for non-local > addresses and reply with the router's MAC address (on that interface), > specifically in order to make classful-only hosts work on a CIDR > network. That functionality sounds exactly like my understanding of what Proxy ARP is supposed to do. > Later someone paid me to write a NetBSD daemon ("anyipd") to do the same > thing, though for an entirely different reason. Nice. Since you stated that anyipd "?would respond to ARP requests for non-local addresses?" I"m assuming that you are talking IP and not another protocol. Please correct me if I'm assuming incorrectly. > Recently I've needed that functionality on Linux, as I have multiple > old systems that only understand classful, including the AT&T UnixPC > (7300 or 3B1). I suppose I should rewrite and open-source it. I'm trying to make sure that I understand what you're wanting / needing to do and evaluate if Proxy ARP can do it or not. I'm guessing that you have a host, AT&T Unix PC, that's at (for the sake of discussion) 10.20.30.40/8 and you'd like to communicate with another machine that's at 10.10.10.10/24. Obviously 10.10.10.10/24 is a subset of 10.0.0.0/8, so the AT&T Unix PC thinks that 10.10.10.10 is local. - Does this accurately represent your use case? Unless you correct me, I'm going to assume that this is accurate enough for the sake of discussion. I /think/ (it's been too long since I've done this) that you would configure one classless interface with 10.20.30.254/24 and another classless interface with 10.10.10.254/24 -and- enable Proxy ARP on both (?) interfaces. You will likely need to enter the target machine's IP addresses in a file that the Proxy ARP sub-system references to learn what target IPs that it needs to Proxy ARP for. I might not have the nuances exactly correct because I've not done this in a long time. But I have made this scenario work with the Proxy ARP support that currently exists in the Linux kernel. So ? I wonder what additional functionality your anyipd would provide. - I'm actually quite curious to learn. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Jan 18 12:39:15 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 11:39:15 -0700 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <20180118182729.2220E18C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180118182729.2220E18C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 11:27 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Easier, to get this old TCP/IP running, might be to write a Unix V6 driver > for > an Ethernet card (one the simulators do support - I know Ersatz-11 does the > Interlan NI1010A/2010A, which is nice and simple) and write an Ethernet > network interface module for that TCP, which talks to said driver; i.e. > just > replace the ARPANET interface stuff completely. > That's what I had thought about maybe doing... As well as playing with a V7 port.... in my copious spare time Warner From lars at nocrew.org Thu Jan 18 12:41:44 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 18:41:44 +0000 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: (Grant Taylor via cctalk's message of "Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:39:10 -0700") References: <20180117183300.9DEDA18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7w7esfdn6f.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Grant Taylor wrote: > Do the necessary emulators support the ARPANET interface? Ken Harrenstien's PDP-10 emulator does. ITS uses the IMP interface for TCP/IP to this day. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 18 12:54:47 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 13:54:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: IP address classes vs CIDR (was Re: Reviving ARPAnet) Message-ID: <20180118185447.9A12718C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > which would respond to ARP requests for non-local addresses and reply > with the router's MAC address (on that interface), specifically in > order to make classful-only hosts work on a CIDR network. Yeah, Proxy ARP (an early RFC here: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1027.txt but IIRC it was people at CMU who first came up with the idea; this RFC is from people at UT-Austin, documenting it) was originally done to support subnetting (see https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc917.txt for more) when it was first introduced - for hosts for which people didn't have the source, but needed to attach it to a subnetted network. Subnetting was a stage before CIDR (which took subnetting and Carl-Herbert Rokitansky's 'supernetting' and mushed them together). Noel From drb at msu.edu Thu Jan 18 13:23:59 2018 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:23:59 -0500 Subject: IP address classes vs CIDR (was Re: Reviving ARPAnet) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 18 Jan 2018 13:54:47 -0500.) <20180118185447.9A12718C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180118185447.9A12718C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20180118192359.43E6CA585D7@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > which would respond to ARP requests for non-local addresses and > > reply with the router's MAC address (on that interface), > > specifically in order to make classful-only hosts work on a > > CIDR network. > Yeah, Proxy ARP (an early RFC here: You all talk about Proxy ARP in the past tense for some reason. :) De From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 13:34:14 2018 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 11:34:14 -0800 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <20180118182729.2220E18C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180118182729.2220E18C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 10:27 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Grant Taylor > > > The ARPANET supported several different kinds of interfaces between the > IMPs > (the switching nodes in the ARPANET) and hosts, but the 'usual' one was > either 'Local Host' (LH) or 'Distant Host' (DH) which were _basically_ > identical except at the very lowest level - LH was TTL, and DH was > differential pair. > > Those interfaces were a custom bit-serial thing with a handshake (with > "there's-your-bit", "ready-for-next-bit" lines, etc); see BBN Report #1822: > > And an "end-of-packet" bit. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/bbn/imp/BBN1822_Jan1976.pdf > > So the "ARPANET interface" in the host is a piece of custom hardware (some > were DMA; I also used one which was interrupt per byte) which went on the > host, which talked 1822 (as it was called), of either the DH or LH physical > form. > > > > > Do the necessary emulators support the ARPANET interface? > > Dunno, but they shouldn't be too hard to add. > > The real problem is going to be 'what do you hook the simulated ARPANET > interfaces up to, and how'? I know they have IMP code running in > simulators: > > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/pipermail/simh/2013- > November/007672.html > > but I dunno how one would hook _that_ simulation up to a simulated host > running a simulated ARPANET interface. > > The IMP emulator emulates the DH/LH interface with UDP packets. I wired up the dps8/m emulator to the IMP emulator, but I don't have the ARPAnet stack for Multics, so it's just packets. -- Charles From phil at ultimate.com Thu Jan 18 13:34:35 2018 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:34:35 -0500 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <20180118182729.2220E18C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180118182729.2220E18C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201801181934.w0IJYZXm091445@ultimate.com> Noel wrote: > but I dunno how one would hook _that_ simulation up to a simulated host > running a simulated ARPANET interface. It would seem silly to simulate a bit by bit interface, so just come up with an encapsulation of 1822 messages in TCP? Two-octet count(*), plus 1822 leaders ..... (*) and if any out-of-band signals are required maybe some flag bits? And if hooking up a network of simulated IMPs gets old, you could write a single ARPAnet server program that multiple hosts connect to.... Mr DeMille; RFNM p From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Jan 18 13:37:28 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 12:37:28 -0700 Subject: IP address classes vs CIDR (was Re: Reviving ARPAnet) In-Reply-To: <20180118192359.43E6CA585D7@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20180118185447.9A12718C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20180118192359.43E6CA585D7@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 01/18/2018 12:23 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > You all talk about Proxy ARP in the past tense for some reason. :) Please don't interpret the fact that I am inadvertently talking about Proxy ARP in the past tense to mean anything. I personally started solving the problem that Proxy ARP is meant to solve with a different solution. I fell in love with Linux bridges (brctl, etc) for things like this (I'm guessing) 15+ years ago. I can create a Bridging Router (a.k.a. BROUTER) that combines layer 2 and layer 3 functionality. This allowed me to bridge non-IP protocols, like NetBIOS / IPX, while routing IP. I could further extend things to include selectively bridging IP via adding EBTables to the mix. I did a LOT of crazy things with Linux bridges. }:-) In hind sight, Proxy ARP might have been the simpler solution. Though I think Proxy ARP would have required that I configure IPs to be Proxy ARPed on all intermediate hosts. Where as bridging has it's own inherent L2 learning. (At least when I was working with non-IP protocols.) I don't know how well Proxy ARP plays with things like OpenVPN or OpenSSH layer 2 tunnels. - I know that I can easily extend layer 2 across a LARGE majority of networks using Linux bridges. - I think that I can even bridge any type of network that uses 802.2 Link Level Control headers. I.e. Token Ring (802.5) and Ethernet (802.3) and Wireless (802.11) and various tunnels. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 13:50:21 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 13:50:21 -0600 Subject: New TestFDC Results Registry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 9:46 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > I'd been trying to reach Dave Dunfield with new TestFDC results since > apparently August with no results. So, I wrote a new TestFDC registry into > my site: > > https://services.theglitchworks.net/ng/testfdc_results Thank you for doing this! It's a valuable resource for us disk-imagers and really needed an update. Maybe we can find other "full pass" cards and I can stop hoarding Adaptec 1522s :) -j From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 13:53:00 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 12:53:00 -0700 Subject: IP address classes vs CIDR (was Re: Reviving ARPAnet) In-Reply-To: <285bf367-1be0-f4fa-4678-b3ea198bc593@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <285bf367-1be0-f4fa-4678-b3ea198bc593@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 01/18/2018 11:00 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Years ago I added a configurable "bozo-arp" feature to the Telebit >> NetBlazer router, which would respond to ARP requests for non-local >> addresses and reply with the router's MAC address (on that interface), >> specifically in order to make classful-only hosts work on a CIDR network. >> > > That functionality sounds exactly like my understanding of what Proxy ARP > is supposed to do. > Proxy ARP is (or was, at the time) something that had to be configured for individual IP addresses or ranges. What I did was have it reply to an ARP for _any_ IP address outside the subnet(s) configured on that interface. Since you stated that anyipd "?would respond to ARP requests for non-local > addresses?" I"m assuming that you are talking IP and not another protocol. > Yes. Specifically IPv4. Recently I've needed that functionality on Linux, as I have multiple old >> systems that only understand classful, including the AT&T UnixPC (7300 or >> 3B1). I suppose I should rewrite and open-source it. >> > > I /think/ (it's been too long since I've done this) that you would > configure one classless interface with 10.20.30.254/24 and another > classless interface with 10.10.10.254/24 -and- enable Proxy ARP on both > (?) interfaces. You will likely need to enter the target machine's IP > addresses in a file that the Proxy ARP sub-system references to learn what > target IPs that it needs to Proxy ARP for. > The point of bozo-arp and anyipd was that the only necessary configuration was to turn it on. Of course, there may be scenarios in which one does not want the router to respond to bogus ARP requests, in which case bozo-arp/anyipd should not be used. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 14:46:56 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 20:46:56 +0000 Subject: New TestFDC Results Registry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A89DBE3-F1AA-417C-ABED-80314FC4AEC1@gmail.com> > On 18 Jan 2018, at 15:46, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > I'd been trying to reach Dave Dunfield with new TestFDC results since > apparently August with no results. So, I wrote a new TestFDC registry into > my site: > > https://services.theglitchworks.net/ng/testfdc_results Gaaaah, talk about the wrong timing for this XD. I say this because I just bought an AHA-1524CF on various folk?s recommendations (not from here) a couple of weeks ago only to find I still couldn?t really manipulate SSSD images then tonight I read a message on VCFED from our own Chuck Guzis saying there were two controller chips in the 1542CF (national and broken Intel) and I discovered I had a broken Intel one. I may have cussed. Typically all the AHA-1522s are in the US, sigh. Cheers, ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Jan 18 15:12:05 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:12:05 -0700 Subject: IP address classes vs CIDR (was Re: Reviving ARPAnet) In-Reply-To: References: <285bf367-1be0-f4fa-4678-b3ea198bc593@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 01/18/2018 12:53 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Proxy ARP is (or was, at the time) something that had to be configured > for individual IP addresses or ranges. What I did was have it reply to an > ARP for any IP address outside the subnet(s) configured on that interface. Intriguing. I guess this means that you only heard ARP requests for IP addresses that other systems in the same broadcast domain thought were local to said broadcast domain. You wouldn't need to worry about errant ARP requests for things outside of the local subnet as that would go through the default gateway (or other defined router). I like it. > Yes. Specifically IPv4. *nod* > The point of bozo-arp and anyipd was that the only necessary configuration > was to turn it on. Of course, there may be scenarios in which one does > not want the router to respond to bogus ARP requests, in which case > bozo-arp/anyipd should not be used. Like all tools, you have to be careful where you do use it. - I'd default with it off (or not installed) and turn it on as necessary. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 15:17:19 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 16:17:19 -0500 Subject: New TestFDC Results Registry In-Reply-To: <2A89DBE3-F1AA-417C-ABED-80314FC4AEC1@gmail.com> References: <2A89DBE3-F1AA-417C-ABED-80314FC4AEC1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Does someone have results for the Siliconsonic / Individual computers Catweasel MK4 plus? IF not I will put that on my list of to-do's. I added a link to this onto my web site in the links section and the archiving info thread. Bill On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 3:46 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 18 Jan 2018, at 15:46, systems_glitch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I'd been trying to reach Dave Dunfield with new TestFDC results since > > apparently August with no results. So, I wrote a new TestFDC registry > into > > my site: > > > > https://services.theglitchworks.net/ng/testfdc_results > > Gaaaah, talk about the wrong timing for this XD. I say this because I just > bought an AHA-1524CF on various folk?s recommendations (not from here) a > couple of weeks ago only to find I still couldn?t really manipulate SSSD > images then tonight I read a message on VCFED from our own Chuck Guzis > saying there were two controller chips in the 1542CF (national and broken > Intel) and I discovered I had a broken Intel one. > > I may have cussed. > > Typically all the AHA-1522s are in the US, sigh. > > Cheers, > > ? > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards > w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs > f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 18 15:36:59 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 13:36:59 -0800 Subject: New TestFDC Results Registry In-Reply-To: References: <2A89DBE3-F1AA-417C-ABED-80314FC4AEC1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <577061ef-1f23-adb9-285b-c4db96bd82ee@sydex.com> Will, I wasn't aware the CW MK4+ had a legacy floppy controller on it (i.e. ports 3fx, DMA 2, IRQ 6 setup with NEC 765 command set). The CWs that I have (a MK3 and a MK1) are all sui generis devices not supported by off-the-shelf software. In particularly, I don't think they'll work with, say, IMD, or AnaDisk. --Chuck On 01/18/2018 01:17 PM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > Does someone have results for the Siliconsonic / Individual computers > Catweasel MK4 plus? IF not I will put that on my list of to-do's. > > I added a link to this onto my web site in the links section and the > archiving info thread. > > Bill > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 3:46 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 15:46, systems_glitch via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> I'd been trying to reach Dave Dunfield with new TestFDC results since >>> apparently August with no results. So, I wrote a new TestFDC registry >> into >>> my site: >>> >>> https://services.theglitchworks.net/ng/testfdc_results >> >> Gaaaah, talk about the wrong timing for this XD. I say this because I just >> bought an AHA-1524CF on various folk?s recommendations (not from here) a >> couple of weeks ago only to find I still couldn?t really manipulate SSSD >> images then tonight I read a message on VCFED from our own Chuck Guzis >> saying there were two controller chips in the 1542CF (national and broken >> Intel) and I discovered I had a broken Intel one. >> >> I may have cussed. >> >> Typically all the AHA-1522s are in the US, sigh. >> >> Cheers, >> >> ? >> Adrian/Witchy >> Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards >> w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs >> f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs >> >> > -- --Chuck Sent from my digital computer From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 15:57:48 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 16:57:48 -0500 Subject: New TestFDC Results Registry In-Reply-To: <577061ef-1f23-adb9-285b-c4db96bd82ee@sydex.com> References: <2A89DBE3-F1AA-417C-ABED-80314FC4AEC1@gmail.com> <577061ef-1f23-adb9-285b-c4db96bd82ee@sydex.com> Message-ID: Please, call me Bill :-) I have a system with a Catweasel and a connection to the motherboard, I am unsure how I have it set up as it has been many years since I opened the box. I have to see what I am doing in there. It's a dual-boot system that goes into either Win 2000 or DOS 6.22, but I forget how the catweasel is hooked up and wither I use it with image disk or not. Bill On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 4:36 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Will, I wasn't aware the CW MK4+ had a legacy floppy controller on it > (i.e. ports 3fx, DMA 2, IRQ 6 setup with NEC 765 command set). The CWs > that I have (a MK3 and a MK1) are all sui generis devices not supported > by off-the-shelf software. In particularly, I don't think they'll work > with, say, IMD, or AnaDisk. > > --Chuck > > > On 01/18/2018 01:17 PM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Does someone have results for the Siliconsonic / Individual computers > > Catweasel MK4 plus? IF not I will put that on my list of to-do's. > > > > I added a link to this onto my web site in the links section and the > > archiving info thread. > > > > Bill > > > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 3:46 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> > >>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 15:46, systems_glitch via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> I'd been trying to reach Dave Dunfield with new TestFDC results since > >>> apparently August with no results. So, I wrote a new TestFDC registry > >> into > >>> my site: > >>> > >>> https://services.theglitchworks.net/ng/testfdc_results > >> > >> Gaaaah, talk about the wrong timing for this XD. I say this because I > just > >> bought an AHA-1524CF on various folk?s recommendations (not from here) a > >> couple of weeks ago only to find I still couldn?t really manipulate SSSD > >> images then tonight I read a message on VCFED from our own Chuck Guzis > >> saying there were two controller chips in the 1542CF (national and > broken > >> Intel) and I discovered I had a broken Intel one. > >> > >> I may have cussed. > >> > >> Typically all the AHA-1522s are in the US, sigh. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> ? > >> Adrian/Witchy > >> Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards > >> w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs > >> f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > >> > >> > > > > > -- > --Chuck > > Sent from my digital computer > From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Jan 18 16:11:01 2018 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:11:01 -0800 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <2d22ed1e-28e6-c250-79da-da2434e49637@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20180117124026.CF72D18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2d22ed1e-28e6-c250-79da-da2434e49637@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <761AD7E8-DE9B-4D99-B0E3-57B81106523D@reanimators.org> > On Jan 18, 2018, at 9:27, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 01/17/2018 01:12 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: >> So here's a real example: I have an HP 3000 Micro GX with MPE G.A3.09 (V-delta-9) which is very 1990. And it has a LANIC, and V-delta-9 is late enough for it to be able to do IP over Ethernet (vs. V-delta-4 and before which could only do IEEE over 802.3). And it has an FTP client. > > Please clarify what you mean by "IP over Ethernet", specifically what frame type? > > Are you talking about Ethernet II frames? What I meant to write in that latter part was "IP over IEEE 802.3". HP's LAN business started out big on big-S Standards, as in an IEEE Standard was preferred over a document circulated by three other computer companies. That document would be Ethernet II. So HP's initial attempts at TCP/IP were done with IEEE 802.2 framing and SAP 6, and used HP?s Probe protocol for local address discovery. And TCP/IP was done as a stopgap, the stated plan was to support the OSI stack when it was ready. HP did eventually (by the end of the 1980s) come to grasp that the customers really wanted Ethernet (II) so they could at least ping the 3000 to see if it was up. Support for that (and ARP) arrived in the version of NS Transport for MPE V/E V-delta-5. >> So you might think I'd be able to move files between it and a modern FreeBSD box, right? I mean, it's all just Ethernet, right? > > Ethernet != Ethernet OK, "IP over Ethernet II". But most folks these days won?t be thinking about the other kinds. Maybe even most folks on this list. > I'm wondering if it might be possible to use an old NetWare 4.x / 5.x box as a router to convert from one Ethernet frame type to another Ethernet frame type. I.e. from IP over Ethernet II frames to IP over 802.3 frames. If you want something that was correct for the period, use a Cisco AGS router. (I think later Cisco routers will do too.) It can do the routing and can also proxy HP?s Probe address-resolution protocol. The Wollongong Group had a software routing product, WIN/ROUTE, and they worked it over a bit to make another product WIN/ROUTE2 which could do the 802.3/Ethernet routing. Can't remember whether it required 3C503 cards. > I actually don't know if Linux can do this or not. My typical go to tool might not help here. :-/ > >> Where it falls apart is that there's a bug in HP's TCP/IP ("NS Transport") in V-delta-9 and before, such that it tears down the connection with a failure if a packet is received with IP type-of-service not zero. And the FreeBSD FTP server sets a socket option that gets FreeBSD to send that sort of packet. >> At a previous employer, I went round with HP a bit on behalf of a mutual customer and got HP to issue a patch for NS Transport that corrects this behavior on the MPE side. Clearly, I don't have that patch on this system. > > I think we all have experiences like that. Some sort of custom code that we didn't care about at the time (beyond fixing the problem) that we would now like to get our hands on years later. Upgrading to MPE Release 40 FOS with Platform 3P SUBSYS would do; the patch did make it into later releases of NS Transport (which would be on the SUBSYS tape). >> FreeBSD is FreeBSD, and I can build its FTP server from source and change it so it works in this situation; but I think this should give y'all some idea of the hilarity that can ensue when you exhume a 1980s TCP/IP and put it on your network. > > I wonder if there are other tricks that can be used to work around this without needing to recompile services. I.e. use IPTables (or FreeBSD's counterpart that I don't know the name of) to change the type-of-service to something other than 0. Been a while since I did that sort of thing but it was with ipfw, a divert socket, and a program to modify the diverted packets and hand them back down to the kernel. Really, commenting out the setsockopt() call in ftpd seemed the easiest thing to do at the time, but I?d need to do it over now and might go for this sort of approach. > Here's a link with a lot of gory details on NetWare's support of multiple Ethernet frame types. > > Link - Migrating Ethernet Frame Types from 802.3 Raw to IEEE 802.2 > - https://support.novell.com/techcenter/articles/ana19930905.html > > Here are the four frame types that NetWare supports: > > - Ethernet II > - I think this is what we are using for just about everything today. > - IEEE 802.3 "raw" > - I'm speculating that this is the frame type that Frank is referring to above. > - IEEE 802.3 with 802.2 > - IEEE 802.3 with 802.2 SNAP > > I /think/ that NetWare can bind IP to all four Ethernet frame types. Hopefully one of them is compatible with V-delta-4 and before. If it can, I think you want the "IEEE 802.3 with 802.2" on the HP side, and the "Ethernet II" on the other side. NS Transport did NOT do SNAP. But back in that day, folks were mostly upgrading to later releases of MPE. I kept this one on V-delta-9 for no real good reason (it was good enough through the 1990s) and then because I found I couldn?t read the Y2K tape set (Release 40 FOS with Platform 3P SUBSYS). -Frank McConnell From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Jan 18 16:24:55 2018 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:24:55 -0800 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: References: <20180117183300.9DEDA18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <90B82D80-A8D9-419E-A8BC-F3B3EB752B3A@reanimators.org> > On Jan 18, 2018, at 9:39, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 01/17/2018 11:33 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> E.g. it probably only supports class A addresses, for instance, which is going to influence the code for picking the first-hop router. > > I was not aware that there was code that supported /only/ Class A (/8) addresses and /not/ Class B (/16) or Class C (/24) addresses. > > I /thought/ that everything was either classful (as in supports all three classes: A, B, and C) or classless (as in supports CIDR). > > Is my networking history missing something else? In the course of this discussion I have been reminded that BBN did a TCP/IP for the HP3000 that ran under MPE IV. It is described in IEN 167 and if you read that carefully you will realize that they got started on MPE III; MPE message files (think record-structured pipes) first appeared in late MPE III but were not documented until MPE IV. Trawling the Intertubes for, well, anything about this I turned up a sort of progress report. It begins on page 66 of 81, on page 68 of 81 it describes changes to the routing table. "Currently, this table has one entry for each of the possible 256 networks, and accesses are very fast." and I'll just leave you with that. -Frank McConnell From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 18 16:32:13 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:32:13 -0800 Subject: New TestFDC Results Registry In-Reply-To: References: <2A89DBE3-F1AA-417C-ABED-80314FC4AEC1@gmail.com> <577061ef-1f23-adb9-285b-c4db96bd82ee@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 01/18/2018 01:57 PM, william degnan wrote: > Please, call me Bill :-) > I have a system with a Catweasel and a connection to the motherboard,? I > am unsure how I have it set up as it has been many years since I opened > the box.? ? I have to see what I am doing in there.? It's a dual-boot > system that goes into either Win 2000 or DOS 6.22, but I forget how the > catweasel is hooked up and wither I use it with image disk or not.? Okay, so who was it on this list wanted to be called Will? At any rate, Bill, I'll file that away for future reference. I really doubt that IMD will do anything with the CW MK4. Another rule of thumb is that if a motherboard is post-P4 and lacks a parallel port, it's unlikely that it'll give any useful results with TESTFDC. I think the floppy facility was included mostly for high-density *read* compatibility. I've had some decent results with P4 and Socket 939 motherboards but after that, not so much. I don't know if that's a bright-line rule, but it seems to hold with my gear. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 18 16:37:46 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:37:46 -0800 Subject: New TestFDC Results Registry In-Reply-To: <2A89DBE3-F1AA-417C-ABED-80314FC4AEC1@gmail.com> References: <2A89DBE3-F1AA-417C-ABED-80314FC4AEC1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/18/2018 12:46 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Gaaaah, talk about the wrong timing for this XD. I say this because I > just bought an AHA-1524CF on various folk?s recommendations (not from > here) a couple of weeks ago only to find I still couldn?t really > manipulate SSSD images then tonight I read a message on VCFED from > our own Chuck Guzis saying there were two controller chips in the > 1542CF (national and broken Intel) and I discovered I had a broken > Intel one. > > I may have cussed. Perhaps all is not lost. I'd have to go and look at my 1542CF, but I believe that I discovered that it uses either the Intel 82077 or the National PC8477 chip. That being the case, if you're handy, you can simply replace the Intel chip with the National one. They're pretty much pin-compatible (the NSC one requires a couple fewer external components). There are many other SCSI controllers that have decent FDCs. I've had good luck with Ultrastor and Future Domain cards, for example. --Chuck From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 18:58:08 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 00:58:08 +0000 Subject: New TestFDC Results Registry In-Reply-To: References: <2A89DBE3-F1AA-417C-ABED-80314FC4AEC1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <359B6BD9-3311-4CB9-A4DD-D3118A2BF7A6@gmail.com> >> manipulate SSSD images then tonight I read a message on VCFED from >> our own Chuck Guzis saying there were two controller chips in the >> 1542CF (national and broken Intel) and I discovered I had a broken >> Intel one. >> >> I may have cussed. > > Perhaps all is not lost. I'd have to go and look at my 1542CF, but I > believe that I discovered that it uses either the Intel 82077 or the > National PC8477 chip. Yep, and that Intel broke the SSSD part of the FDC by adding tape support to the card. > That being the case, if you're handy, you can simply replace the Intel > chip with the National one. They're pretty much pin-compatible (the NSC > one requires a couple fewer external components). I could, but I guess by the time I?ve sourced a replacement I might as well have bought an AHA-1522A instead, I have a couple of scouts out looking for them as we speak :) The 1522A is a full pass for TESTFDC. > > There are many other SCSI controllers that have decent FDCs. I've had > good luck with Ultrastor and Future Domain cards, for example. I noticed a couple of boards on the list that I might?ve gone past in the ?spare old boards? box at work earlier and discounted because they were too ?new?, an Asus one and Aopen one which are both Athlon based. They both do SSSD so it?s also an avenue worth pursuing. Cheers! ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 19:44:04 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 19:44:04 -0600 Subject: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 6:58 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > I could, but I guess by the time I?ve sourced a replacement I might as well have bought an AHA-1522A instead, I have a couple of scouts out looking for them as we speak :) The 1522A is a full pass for TESTFDC. Has anyone using one of these cards made use of the SCSI function? It has a Centronics 50 connector, which isn't terribly useful unless you've got the right cable, but if you're building an all-in-one imaging machine, it might be handy to have SCSI capability as well. It seems the driver hasn't been in Linux for quite a few versions. Not sure about the BSDs. From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Jan 18 19:55:07 2018 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 20:55:07 -0500 Subject: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7F73A368-8106-4DF3-AC83-8611C9FCF623@verizon.net> I use this card as a floppy/disk controller in a PC/AT that's used solely for imaging. The controller is connected to two Seagate ST-2502N (442MB) hard drives running MS-DOS 6.22. Works like a champ. Cables are readily available on eBay but since they're regular 50-pin IDC connectors, you can DIY if needed -- connectors are readily available. Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 ?On 1/18/18, 8:44 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Jason T via cctalk" wrote: On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 6:58 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > I could, but I guess by the time I?ve sourced a replacement I might as well have bought an AHA-1522A instead, I have a couple of scouts out looking for them as we speak :) The 1522A is a full pass for TESTFDC. Has anyone using one of these cards made use of the SCSI function? It has a Centronics 50 connector, which isn't terribly useful unless you've got the right cable, but if you're building an all-in-one imaging machine, it might be handy to have SCSI capability as well. It seems the driver hasn't been in Linux for quite a few versions. Not sure about the BSDs. From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Jan 18 20:13:46 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 19:13:46 -0700 Subject: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2018 6:44 PM, "Jason T via cctalk" wrote: On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 6:58 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > I could, but I guess by the time I?ve sourced a replacement I might as well have bought an AHA-1522A instead, I have a couple of scouts out looking for them as we speak :) The 1522A is a full pass for TESTFDC. Has anyone using one of these cards made use of the SCSI function? It has a Centronics 50 connector, which isn't terribly useful unless you've got the right cable, but if you're building an all-in-one imaging machine, it might be handy to have SCSI capability as well. It seems the driver hasn't been in Linux for quite a few versions. Not sure about the BSDs. FreeBSD supports it with the aic driver. Warner From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 18 20:18:43 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 18:18:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jan 2018, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > Has anyone using one of these cards made use of the SCSI function? It > has a Centronics 50 connector, which isn't terribly useful unless > you've got the right cable, but if you're building an all-in-one > imaging machine, it might be handy to have SCSI capability as well. > It seems the driver hasn't been in Linux for quite a few versions. > Not sure about the BSDs. A few SCSI floppy drives existed, but they were never very common. Only SCSI floppy that I remember having was a "Floptical" (20MB), that also handled 1.4M Or, are you suggesting putting together an imaging machine that also handles HDD, CD-ROM, some tape cartridges, etc.? From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 20:26:45 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 20:26:45 -0600 Subject: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) In-Reply-To: <7F73A368-8106-4DF3-AC83-8611C9FCF623@verizon.net> References: <7F73A368-8106-4DF3-AC83-8611C9FCF623@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 7:55 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > I use this card as a floppy/disk controller in a PC/AT that's used solely for imaging. The controller is connected to two Seagate ST-2502N (442MB) hard drives running MS-DOS 6.22. Works like a champ. Cables are readily available on eBay but since they're regular 50-pin IDC connectors, you can DIY if needed -- connectors are readily available. Do you have (and can you post) the MS-DOS drivers for that card? I also run one in my floppy imager machine, which dual-boots btw. MS-DOS and some later Linux. Having SCSI for at least one of the OSes would be nice. I could also switch the other partition over to FreeBSD, as Warner L suggested. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 20:28:53 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 20:28:53 -0600 Subject: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 8:18 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Or, are you suggesting putting together an imaging machine that also handles > HDD, CD-ROM, some tape cartridges, etc.? Correct. Two key components in short supply when you have 100001 classiccmp projects are space and motivation, so if I can dd an old hard drive/Jaz cart/etc from the same machine where I'm reading in floppies, all the better. From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Jan 18 20:33:23 2018 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 02:33:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) In-Reply-To: References: <7F73A368-8106-4DF3-AC83-8611C9FCF623@verizon.net> Message-ID: For that card, no drivers are needed for the hard drives. The on-board ROM is an Int13 wedge. Regarding using any other devices like a ZIP drive, CD or a floptical, not sure if those need drivers. ZIP definitely needed a DOS driver. The CD did as well (In both config.sys and autoexec) but the ROM may have CDROM extensions already to enable booting from CD. Never tried it with that card though.? Get Outlook for iOS On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 9:27 PM -0500, "Jason T via cctalk" wrote: On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 7:55 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > I use this card as a floppy/disk controller in a PC/AT that's used solely for imaging. The controller is connected to two Seagate ST-2502N (442MB) hard drives running MS-DOS 6.22. Works like a champ. Cables are readily available on eBay but since they're regular 50-pin IDC connectors, you can DIY if needed -- connectors are readily available. Do you have (and can you post) the MS-DOS drivers for that card? I also run one in my floppy imager machine, which dual-boots btw. MS-DOS and some later Linux. Having SCSI for at least one of the OSes would be nice. I could also switch the other partition over to FreeBSD, as Warner L suggested. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 18 20:40:44 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 18:40:44 -0800 Subject: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46ec9fc3-8328-a3c5-1117-cba239ac895b@sydex.com> On 01/18/2018 06:18 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > A few SCSI floppy drives existed, but they were never very common. > Only SCSI floppy that I remember having was a "Floptical" (20MB), that > also handled 1.4M Most "real" SCSI drives were basically bolt-on adapter affairs to a traditional floppy interface. You can, for example, occasionally find Teac FD235S drives for sale--and if you look, it's basically a SCSI-to-floppy adapter bolted onto a regular FD235. There were also some SMS/OMTI cards that served the same purpose--floopy-to-SCSI. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jan 19 02:08:06 2018 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 03:08:06 -0500 Subject: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7418CC1761C7414DAB1DF16F942505FE@teoPC> Didn?t early SUN gear have SCSI floppy drives? -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2018 9:18 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) On Thu, 18 Jan 2018, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > Has anyone using one of these cards made use of the SCSI function? It > has a Centronics 50 connector, which isn't terribly useful unless > you've got the right cable, but if you're building an all-in-one > imaging machine, it might be handy to have SCSI capability as well. > It seems the driver hasn't been in Linux for quite a few versions. > Not sure about the BSDs. A few SCSI floppy drives existed, but they were never very common. Only SCSI floppy that I remember having was a "Floptical" (20MB), that also handled 1.4M Or, are you suggesting putting together an imaging machine that also handles HDD, CD-ROM, some tape cartridges, etc.? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 19 02:25:18 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 09:25:18 +0100 (CET) Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <2d22ed1e-28e6-c250-79da-da2434e49637@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20180117124026.CF72D18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2d22ed1e-28e6-c250-79da-da2434e49637@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jan 2018, Grant Taylor wrote: > I'm wondering if it might be possible to use an old NetWare 4.x / 5.x box as > a router to convert from one Ethernet frame type to another Ethernet frame > type. I.e. from IP over Ethernet II frames to IP over 802.3 frames. Why do you want to convert between the two frame types? They can happily coexist on the same segment. In fact I'm using this setup on some Linux servers that provide both ordinary IP services (like NFS) and Novell shares (using Mars NWE) for DOS clients - on the same interface. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 19 02:38:09 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 09:38:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: New TestFDC Results Registry In-Reply-To: References: <2A89DBE3-F1AA-417C-ABED-80314FC4AEC1@gmail.com> <577061ef-1f23-adb9-285b-c4db96bd82ee@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jan 2018, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've had some decent results with P4 and Socket 939 motherboards but > after that, not so much. I don't know if that's a bright-line rule, but > it seems to hold with my gear. My quite current Socket AM3+ board with six-core CPU and 16GB of RAM (to be precise, an ASrock 890FX Deluxe5) has a floppy connector (one of the reason I chose that board), and it supports FM and MFM. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 19 02:48:24 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 09:48:24 +0100 (CET) Subject: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) In-Reply-To: <7418CC1761C7414DAB1DF16F942505FE@teoPC> References: <7418CC1761C7414DAB1DF16F942505FE@teoPC> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jan 2018, TeoZ wrote: > Didn?t early SUN gear have SCSI floppy drives? No, SUN always used standard floppy controllers. But HP and DEC used them, although it was not very common. The floppy drives are standard TEAC FD-235HF with an additional SCSI floppy controller board. Christian From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Jan 19 03:35:07 2018 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 10:35:07 +0100 Subject: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) In-Reply-To: References: <7418CC1761C7414DAB1DF16F942505FE@teoPC> Message-ID: <20180119093507.GB13133@beast.freibergnet.de> Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 19 Jan 2018, TeoZ wrote: > > Didn?t early SUN gear have SCSI floppy drives? > > No, SUN always used standard floppy controllers. But HP and DEC used them, > although it was not very common. The floppy drives are standard TEAC > FD-235HF with an additional SCSI floppy controller board. > > Christian Christian wei?t Du wo man Sowas noch auftreiben k?nnte? Ich suche nach einer M?glichkeit Floppies mit "modernen Computern" zu lesen und Schreiben..nat?rlich noch viel lieber 5,25 Zoll.. SCSI hab ich in so gut wie allen Rechnern, aber die Motherboards haben keinen FDC mehr und auch keine ISA Slots um sowas wie einen 1542 rein zu st?pseln. Gru?, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 03:31:51 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 01:31:51 -0800 Subject: Yet More S-100 stuff from Sellam's collection listed for sale Message-ID: Hello again, Folks! I've listed yet another batch of S-100 goodies: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61192-Sellam-s-S-100-Hardware-Software-and-Peripherals-Sales-Thread&p=495275#post495275 The latest batch includes a new Processor Technology kit, a BYT-8 front panel, a Commodore PET to S-100 interface board, a couple Wameco backplanes, a gaggle of Cromemco boards, and much more. Thanks! Sellam From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Jan 19 05:20:48 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 03:20:48 -0800 Subject: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) In-Reply-To: <7418CC1761C7414DAB1DF16F942505FE@teoPC> References: <7418CC1761C7414DAB1DF16F942505FE@teoPC> Message-ID: <017ec44c-a09f-a364-e2d7-a384a574571e@jwsss.com> On 1/19/2018 12:08 AM, TeoZ via cctalk wrote: > Didn?t early SUN gear have SCSI floppy drives? > There is a SCSI floppy drive branded with Tadpole, I think. thanks Jim > -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2018 9:18 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results > Registry) > > On Thu, 18 Jan 2018, Jason T via cctalk wrote: >> Has anyone using one of these cards made use of the SCSI function?? It >> has a Centronics 50 connector, which isn't terribly useful unless >> you've got the right cable, but if you're building an all-in-one >> imaging machine, it might be handy to have SCSI capability as well. >> It seems the driver hasn't been in Linux for quite a few versions. >> Not sure about the BSDs. > > A few SCSI floppy drives existed, but they were never very common. > Only SCSI floppy that I remember having was a "Floptical" (20MB), that > also handled 1.4M > > Or, are you suggesting putting together an imaging machine that also > handles HDD, CD-ROM, some tape cartridges, etc.? > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Jan 19 05:31:50 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 03:31:50 -0800 Subject: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/18/2018 5:44 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 6:58 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk > wrote: >> I could, but I guess by the time I?ve sourced a replacement I might as well have bought an AHA-1522A instead, I have a couple of scouts out looking for them as we speak :) The 1522A is a full pass for TESTFDC. > Has anyone using one of these cards made use of the SCSI function? It > has a Centronics 50 connector, which isn't terribly useful unless > you've got the right cable, but if you're building an all-in-one > imaging machine, it might be handy to have SCSI capability as well. > It seems the driver hasn't been in Linux for quite a few versions. > Not sure about the BSDs. > > The 1522 was based on a lower cost chipset which Adaptec introduced to complement the 154x boards.? SCSI was suffering from being undercut by other interfaces in the market due to the nonstandard bios interface that the systems equipped with the 154x boards had to run with as bios got more complicated. Also I think this was the first chip that could be in the system w/o having the bios initiate the interface.? The 154x (1542 for example) required having the bus initiated and reset at boot by the bios, since there was a lot of logic involved in that chip.? The 152x and the like could be fully integrated into a reasonable sized driver and only have to go the the time consuming process of resetting and enumerating devices and initiators, etc. when needed. As Richard said for use with scanners and other peripheral media. The systems became very annoying if you didn't have boot media attached to the system controller to justify all the time it took to do that on every boot. And this and the 151x controllers were priced lower. I suspect the 154x and the PCI interface controllers Adaptec had should still be in the kernel.? You might be able to find the drivers and enable them in the Linux Kernel, unless some kernel driver rewrite had some feature that couldn't be implemented for this controller. I don't have a lot of references for the above, and if anyone has updates or comments, please add them.? I'm still using the HP DL360 and DL380 and the like which have the higher end controllers integrated in for the only SCSI work I do, and have not followed these or other support for a long time for parallel scsi interfaces. DL360's are so cheap that buying one with SCSI drives in the Generation 5 or 6 or later is the best way I know of to run SCSI. Not great for power, but they are excellent and solid systems with a lot of OS support. thanks Jim From hachti at hachti.de Fri Jan 19 07:05:46 2018 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 14:05:46 +0100 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12.01.2018 23:24, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > this is going to go for an insane amt of money Oh, yess! I am beginning to feel rich :-P From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 07:14:38 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 08:14:38 -0500 Subject: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I often have a 1522A in my disk imaging machine. Linux supports it, which means I can use `ddrescue` with it. It'll also talk to a lot of older/slower drives that my 2940UW doesn't like (e.g. very old DEC drives from VAXen, it does better with some old tape drives than the 2940UW). It's slow, but I've also found that it's less likely to cause a kernel panic if you're working on a disk that is very near the end of its life. I suspect that's due to being a PIO device. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 6:31 AM, jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 1/18/2018 5:44 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 6:58 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> I could, but I guess by the time I?ve sourced a replacement I might as >>> well have bought an AHA-1522A instead, I have a couple of scouts out >>> looking for them as we speak :) The 1522A is a full pass for TESTFDC. >>> >> Has anyone using one of these cards made use of the SCSI function? It >> has a Centronics 50 connector, which isn't terribly useful unless >> you've got the right cable, but if you're building an all-in-one >> imaging machine, it might be handy to have SCSI capability as well. >> It seems the driver hasn't been in Linux for quite a few versions. >> Not sure about the BSDs. >> >> >> The 1522 was based on a lower cost chipset which Adaptec introduced to > complement the 154x boards. SCSI was suffering from being undercut by > other interfaces in the market due to the nonstandard bios interface that > the systems equipped with the 154x boards had to run with as bios got more > complicated. > > Also I think this was the first chip that could be in the system w/o > having the bios initiate the interface. The 154x (1542 for example) > required having the bus initiated and reset at boot by the bios, since > there was a lot of logic involved in that chip. The 152x and the like > could be fully integrated into a reasonable sized driver and only have to > go the the time consuming process of resetting and enumerating devices and > initiators, etc. when needed. > > As Richard said for use with scanners and other peripheral media. The > systems became very annoying if you didn't have boot media attached to the > system controller to justify all the time it took to do that on every boot. > > And this and the 151x controllers were priced lower. > > I suspect the 154x and the PCI interface controllers Adaptec had should > still be in the kernel. You might be able to find the drivers and enable > them in the Linux Kernel, unless some kernel driver rewrite had some > feature that couldn't be implemented for this controller. > > I don't have a lot of references for the above, and if anyone has updates > or comments, please add them. I'm still using the HP DL360 and DL380 and > the like which have the higher end controllers integrated in for the only > SCSI work I do, and have not followed these or other support for a long > time for parallel scsi interfaces. > > DL360's are so cheap that buying one with SCSI drives in the Generation 5 > or 6 or later is the best way I know of to run SCSI. Not great for power, > but they are excellent and solid systems with a lot of OS support. > thanks > Jim > From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 08:30:39 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 09:30:39 -0500 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm sure they're out there in bitsavers, but I have an original copy of the GT-40 engineering drawings. Sometimes it's nice to have the printed copy to work from. Bill On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 8:05 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 12.01.2018 23:24, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> this is going to go for an insane amt of money >> > > Oh, yess! I am beginning to feel rich :-P > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jan 19 09:57:48 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 08:57:48 -0700 Subject: Reviving ARPAnet In-Reply-To: References: <20180117124026.CF72D18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2d22ed1e-28e6-c250-79da-da2434e49637@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <46a1a954-5881-0e73-6b6d-e141e5f288ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 01/19/2018 01:25 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > Why do you want to convert between the two frame types? They can happily > coexist on the same segment. In fact I'm using this setup on some Linux > servers that provide both ordinary IP services (like NFS) and Novell > shares (using Mars NWE) for DOS clients - on the same interface. My intention was to allow IP running on top of something other than Ethernet II to be able to communicate with IP on top of Ethernet II. Preferably via a router and not some sort of bump in the wire frame conversion. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From Mark at Misty.com Fri Jan 19 10:44:50 2018 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 11:44:50 -0500 Subject: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) In-Reply-To: References: <7F73A368-8106-4DF3-AC83-8611C9FCF623@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20180119164450.GA16663@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 08:26:45PM -0600, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 7:55 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > > I use this card as a floppy/disk controller in a PC/AT that's used solely for imaging. The controller is connected to two Seagate ST-2502N (442MB) hard drives running MS-DOS 6.22. Works like a champ. Cables are readily available on eBay but since they're regular 50-pin IDC connectors, you can DIY if needed -- connectors are readily available. > > Do you have (and can you post) the MS-DOS drivers for that card? I > also run one in my floppy imager machine, which dual-boots btw. MS-DOS > and some later Linux. Having SCSI for at least one of the OSes would > be nice. > > I could also switch the other partition over to FreeBSD, as Warner L suggested. I think you want this: http://files.markgthomas.com/dl/adaptec/EZSCSI40.IMD (This URL is temporary.) I just found, imaged, and installed it, on my disk-imaging PC using an AHA-1522A: ------------------------------------------------------- IMD 1.18: 24/12/2017 4:54:15 Adaptec EZ-SCSI v4.01a Setup Diskette Disk 1of1 HD 3.5 Windows 95/NT/3.1x and DOS Drivers >From Windows 95 or NT Click Start, Run, Type a:\setup >From Windows 3.1 or NT 3.52 File/Run Type a:\setup >From DOS Type a:, Type dosinst ------------------------------------------------------- Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 10:56:06 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 11:56:06 -0500 Subject: Yet More S-100 stuff from Sellam's collection listed for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool, can you send a picture of that BYT-8 front panel? =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 4:31 AM, Sellam Ismail via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello again, Folks! > > I've listed yet another batch of S-100 goodies: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61192-Sellam-s- > S-100-Hardware-Software-and-Peripherals-Sales-Thread&p=495275#post495275 > > The latest batch includes a new Processor Technology kit, a BYT-8 front > panel, a Commodore PET to S-100 interface board, a couple Wameco > backplanes, a gaggle of Cromemco boards, and much more. > > Thanks! > > Sellam > From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 14:54:38 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 14:54:38 -0600 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A tenth the price of the Twiggy Lisa makes that auction look almost affordable! Final price was $5600. Kyle From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 16:54:10 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 17:54:10 -0500 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That actually seems not too bad. If I needed another big project I'd have really thought about bidding it up. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 3:54 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > A tenth the price of the Twiggy Lisa makes that auction look almost > affordable! Final price was $5600. > > Kyle > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 20 07:34:33 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 08:34:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: GT-40 etc. Message-ID: <20180120133433.3C32918C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Kyle Owen > A tenth the price of the Twiggy Lisa makes that auction look almost > affordable! Final price was $5600. Yeah, whoever bought that got, IMO, a pretty good deal (as I predicted). It's a fair amount of money, but they got a _ton_ of stuff (probably literally :-). I mean, look what's included (with rough guesses as the value): $600 H960 rack $600 H960 rack $400 RK05 drive $600? RK03 drive $700? RK11-C controller $2000 PDP-8/F $2000 PDP-11/05 $?? GT40 display hardware $400 BA11-F with ?? inside %? Teletype ------ $7300 Some of the things are so rare (e.g. the RK03 and RK11-C) I don't have any comparables (RK11-D's go for $500 or so, FWTW); and on the GT40 I have no idea whatsoever. (This one doesn't have the usual GT40 display, but a rack-mounted VRxx?) Still, it's pretty clear that whoever bought this got a deal. And I haven't even included the packs ($30 each, another $900 or so), all the Grass analog gear, etc, etc. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 20 07:39:49 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 08:39:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: New TestFDC Results Registry Message-ID: <20180120133949.9235618C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jonathan > if someone wants to sticky this (here or in other forums), I think this > would be a valuable resource for anyone wanting to use ImageDisk on > non-PC formats. How about someone doing an ImageDisk page on the Computer History Wiki; we could include an 'External link' to the new registry (and also the original one, etc). Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 20 12:41:09 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 10:41:09 -0800 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: <20180120133433.3C32918C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180120133433.3C32918C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <530edd06-74f1-042b-ba66-b3921eff2c25@bitsavers.org> On 1/20/18 5:34 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > $2000 PDP-11/05 > $?? GT40 display hardware vt11 is integrated into the 11/05 backplane on the gt40 it looks like they took the display and changed the front panel to rack mount it. sadly, the light pen is missing, those are impossible to find. fortunately, the keyboard is still there hope whoever retrieves it bugs them to see if the light pen is somewhere. From t.gardner at computer.org Sat Jan 20 14:10:31 2018 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 12:10:31 -0800 Subject: Early 12-inch WORM disk drives and media Message-ID: <005301d3922a$ba0a1120$2e1e3360$@computer.org> I'm pulling together a timeline of optical computer data storage and having fun with the early ones. A copy of Rothchild's Optical Memory Report, From the early 80's would be appreciated - hardcopies are at the CHM so maybe I'll have to drive over there I'm told by a reliable source and am trying to confirm that Philips and Toshiba were first circa 1980 so can anyone identify and provide any details about any 12-inch WORM disk drives and media that were shipped by either around 1980. FWIW the earliest WORM I can identify is the OSI Laserdrive 1200 which shipped in 1983. OSI was a joint venture of Philips and CDC and in turn a successor to their earlier joint ventures, Optical Media Laboratory in Holland and Optical Peripherals Laboratory in Colorado. So the Laserdrive might be a rebadged or enhanced version of the earlier Philips product. I have no clue as to any early Toshiba WORM FWIW, in 1981 Matsushita demonstrated of a 200 mm diameter WORM disk with a capacity of 15,000 still pictures but this wasn't a data disk. Not clear when and if it shipped as a product. [source: http://www.wtec.org/loyola/opto/ad_matsu.htm ] There is also an indication that Thompson CF also had an optical data storage system circa 1981 but I can find nothing about it. Any recollections and all literature would be appreciated. Tom From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 14:23:50 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 12:23:50 -0800 Subject: Power plugs and cables for the IBM 3420 Message-ID: <503E3587-6A78-4B31-880B-CAD917ECBE22@gmail.com> Can any of you identify which power plugs models these are. They are on my IBM 3420 tapes and connect to the IBM 3803 controller, 3 phase: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ftfpg0owdvb173u/IMG_5066.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/uyzpwcp6sjkvrpf/IMG_5067.JPG?dl=0 These are for the large vacuum column tapes seen in this video here: https://youtu.be/yaPVkw8dnaI And if anyone knows where to get these power cables... Marc From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 20 15:12:20 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 16:12:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: GT-40 etc. Message-ID: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > vt11 is integrated into the 11/05 backplane on the gt40 Right (although I had forgotten that); I listed the 11/05 separately since I do have data on how much they've been going for - in an attempt to roughly value the lot. The GT40, however, no idea. (I recall one was for sale on eBay for many thousands, but I don't know if that was ever sold, and how much for.) Noel From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jan 20 15:20:54 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 13:20:54 -0800 Subject: Power plugs and cables for the IBM 3420 In-Reply-To: <503E3587-6A78-4B31-880B-CAD917ECBE22@gmail.com> References: <503E3587-6A78-4B31-880B-CAD917ECBE22@gmail.com> Message-ID: Those cables came with my 4331 system. I?ll go and dig them out and maybe there will be some sort of part number. At worst I?ll post some pictures. You might also want to look up the various IBM docs on the 3420 and 3803. They should specify those cables. I also have all the docs in an IBM FE cart, so when I have time, I?ll see if there?s anything there. TTFN - Guy > On Jan 20, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > > Can any of you identify which power plugs models these are. They are on my IBM 3420 tapes and connect to the IBM 3803 controller, 3 phase: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/ftfpg0owdvb173u/IMG_5066.JPG?dl=0 > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/uyzpwcp6sjkvrpf/IMG_5067.JPG?dl=0 > > These are for the large vacuum column tapes seen in this video here: > > https://youtu.be/yaPVkw8dnaI > > > > And if anyone knows where to get these power cables... > > > > Marc > From cramcram at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 17:46:47 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 15:46:47 -0800 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: There was a guy in the Netherlands (I believe) who was trying to sell a GT40 for $14K with no delivery option. If I were on the east coast (or just not very busy) I would have higher on the ebay system just to get the GT40 + monitor. Marc On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 1:12 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Al Kossow > > > vt11 is integrated into the 11/05 backplane on the gt40 > > Right (although I had forgotten that); I listed the 11/05 separately since > I > do have data on how much they've been going for - in an attempt to roughly > value the lot. The GT40, however, no idea. (I recall one was for sale on > eBay > for many thousands, but I don't know if that was ever sold, and how much > for.) > > Noel > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 19:10:42 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 20:10:42 -0500 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: References: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 6:46 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > There was a guy in the Netherlands (I believe) who was trying to sell a > GT40 for $14K with no delivery option. Oof! > If I were on the east coast (or just not very busy) I would have higher on > the ebay system just to get the GT40 + monitor. What monitors work with the GT40? I happen to have the boardset (and an 11/05) but not the CRT (and no lightpen). What could I drive with those boards? -ethan From useddec at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 19:32:15 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 19:32:15 -0600 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: References: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I think just the VR12, VR14, and the VR17. I might have an extra VT11 backplane. On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 7:10 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 6:46 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk > wrote: > > There was a guy in the Netherlands (I believe) who was trying to sell a > > GT40 for $14K with no delivery option. > > Oof! > > > If I were on the east coast (or just not very busy) I would have higher > on > > the ebay system just to get the GT40 + monitor. > > What monitors work with the GT40? I happen to have the boardset (and > an 11/05) but not the CRT (and no lightpen). What could I drive with > those boards? > > -ethan > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jan 20 19:52:26 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 18:52:26 -0700 Subject: OT - Has anyone seen / have a copy of computer lore story about a DC consolidation? Message-ID: <9979aa3b-51f8-3f0e-024f-3d2eb31a10c5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Sorry for the off topic post. I'm hoping that someone here might have seen a (what I consider to be) a computer lore type story about a contractor that was brought in part way through a project to consolidate three DCs into one. - In the end he managed to do it early and under budget. The kicker is that they quite literally physically moved and re-connected everything the way that it was. Meaning that there were still WAN circuits (local only of course) between equipment that was previously in different DCs. I would like to find a copy of this story and save it in my archive. But I've not been able to do so. Thus I'm asking a wider audience to see if anyone might be able to give me a pointer. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jan 20 19:58:19 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 17:58:19 -0800 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: References: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <48873D14-6616-486D-A2AB-E1EA409B4139@shiresoft.com> As I understand it, the power for the DACs actually comes from the monitor (VR12/4/7) and thus you can?t use any monitor without some additional circuitry to provide the power to the DACs. TTFN - Guy > On Jan 20, 2018, at 5:32 PM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > > I think just the VR12, VR14, and the VR17. > > I might have an extra VT11 backplane. > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 7:10 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 6:46 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk >> wrote: >>> There was a guy in the Netherlands (I believe) who was trying to sell a >>> GT40 for $14K with no delivery option. >> >> Oof! >> >>> If I were on the east coast (or just not very busy) I would have higher >> on >>> the ebay system just to get the GT40 + monitor. >> >> What monitors work with the GT40? I happen to have the boardset (and >> an 11/05) but not the CRT (and no lightpen). What could I drive with >> those boards? >> >> -ethan >> From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 20:06:45 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 18:06:45 -0800 Subject: Help identifying IC Message-ID: <2bbf07cc-d69d-2022-9e84-bc298dffd313@gmail.com> Hi all -- I picked up this little toy at VCF West last summer: https://1drv.ms/i/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMouYd0HV0ZThE3FnE_Q As far as I can tell, it's supposed to be a clock and I assume it was a kit -- this one was definitely hand-assembled.? It's powered by two AA's (apparently, there are no markings), has a 4 digit LED display, and at the moment it does not work at all. Can't find anything about this item at all.? At the moment I'm curious what the 28-pin IC at the top is -- there are no markings of any kind anywhere on the chip.? It has an interesting construction -- blue plastic on both sides with a metal cap over the die.? The two other ICs are RCA 3081 and RCA 3082 which are simply transistor arrays for driving the 4-digit LED display.? I assume the 28-pin IC is a simple microcontroller with built-in ROM, or perhaps it's a device specifically designed to run a digital clock.? Whatever it is, I'd love to know what it does so I can debug this thing and possibly source a replacement. I realize this is not a lot of information to go on, but on the off-chance someone's seen something like this before I figured I'd give it a go... Thanks, Josh From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 20:26:50 2018 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 18:26:50 -0800 Subject: A walk through of my legendary warehouse sale in the 1990s. Message-ID: This is a digitized HI8 tape of a walk through of an early Warehouse Sale I ran from 1995 to 1998. There is a small sections of collectable computers in the middle of the tape with a few others scattered through the sale. Fond memories and hard to believe it was 22 years ago. https://youtu.be/8Pme8mZU-Xc -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA Virus-free. www.avg.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jan 20 21:23:06 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 22:23:06 -0500 Subject: A walk through of my legendary warehouse sale in the 1990s. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16116bdb13b-171c-1f145@webjas-vaa100.srv.aolmail.net> yikes.... that was a lot ?to carry up the stairs? ? ? In a message dated 1/20/2018 7:26:58 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? This is a digitized HI8 tape of a walk through of an early Warehouse Sale I ran from 1995 to 1998. There is a small sections of collectable computers in the middle of the tape with a few others scattered through the sale. Fond memories and hard to believe it was 22 years ago. https://youtu.be/8Pme8mZU-Xc -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA Virus-free. www.avg.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 21:38:49 2018 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 01:38:49 -0200 Subject: A walk through of my legendary warehouse sale in the 1990s. In-Reply-To: <16116bdb13b-171c-1f145@webjas-vaa100.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16116bdb13b-171c-1f145@webjas-vaa100.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: What a dream place! :D 2018-01-21 1:23 GMT-02:00 Ed Sharpe via cctalk : > yikes.... that was a lot to carry up the stairs? > > > In a message dated 1/20/2018 7:26:58 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > This is a digitized HI8 tape of a walk through of an early Warehouse Sale > I > ran from 1995 to 1998. There is a small sections of collectable computers > in the middle of the tape with a few others scattered through the sale. > Fond memories and hard to believe it was 22 years ago. > > https://youtu.be/8Pme8mZU-Xc > > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA > > utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> > Virus-free. > www.avg.com > utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sat Jan 20 21:55:13 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 19:55:13 -0800 Subject: Help identifying IC In-Reply-To: <2bbf07cc-d69d-2022-9e84-bc298dffd313@gmail.com> References: <2bbf07cc-d69d-2022-9e84-bc298dffd313@gmail.com> Message-ID: <68557B7C-421B-492C-8885-852A6B0B230E@shaw.ca> The mid-70s saw a plethora of dedicated-logic LSI TOD clock chips in 24-28 and sometimes 40 pin packages. Most prevalent IME were those made by National, Mostek and Fairchild. Going by the labelling for the other two chips, fair chance the ID of the big chip is staring right at us: MPS 7123. Micro Power Systems and Commodore Semiconductor Group used chip ids of the form MPSxxxx, although I have nothing for specifically MPS7123. The former would fit the battery operation. Try tilting the IC obliquely to the light and viewing angle if you haven't, often shows up a remnant impression of printing on the IC. I never did see a TOD clock chip in a gold-topped package - they were generally targetted for the low-cost consumer market - although by the date code it may be early enough, in the period that consumer products would have such packages. The clock chips were pretty straightforward but varied in options: generally 2 power pins 2 oscillator pins (for the multiplexing) 50/60hz input pin (for TOD timing if separate from internal oscillator) 4 or 6 digit-drive pins 7 segment-drive pins some setting/mode control pins which could be either switched direct to a power rail or multiplexed with isolation diodes off the digit pins often an AM/PM indicator pin alarm control output pin (There were some for non-multiplexed display drive but that would be >28 pins.) (Some had BCD rather than 7-seg numeral outputs) So, yes, it's hard to say, could be a dedicated TOD clock, could be an evaluation module for something like a multi-digit decade counter IC. Perhaps a start-stop timer, 3 switches: start / stop / reset. Not difficult to trace out, could see if there are any other pins that might be for external connections like timing control or counter inputs. On 2018-Jan-20, at 6:06 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hi all -- > > I picked up this little toy at VCF West last summer: > > https://1drv.ms/i/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMouYd0HV0ZThE3FnE_Q > > As far as I can tell, it's supposed to be a clock and I assume it was a kit -- this one was definitely hand-assembled. It's powered by two AA's (apparently, there are no markings), has a 4 digit LED display, and at the moment it does not work at all. > > Can't find anything about this item at all. At the moment I'm curious what the 28-pin IC at the top is -- there are no markings of any kind anywhere on the chip. It has an interesting construction -- blue plastic on both sides with a metal cap over the die. The two other ICs are RCA 3081 and RCA 3082 which are simply transistor arrays for driving the 4-digit LED display. I assume the 28-pin IC is a simple microcontroller with built-in ROM, or perhaps it's a device specifically designed to run a digital clock. Whatever it is, I'd love to know what it does so I can debug this thing and possibly source a replacement. > > I realize this is not a lot of information to go on, but on the off-chance someone's seen something like this before I figured I'd give it a go... > > Thanks, > > Josh > From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jan 20 22:00:08 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 23:00:08 -0500 Subject: A walk through of my legendary warehouse sale in the 1990s. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <16116df98f4-1729-51e91@webjas-vae161.srv.aolmail.net> yes ?amazing! I ?see some microscope, 16 mm Mitchell?film?marines??and ?some ?still cameras ?I ?would love! ?ed# ? In a message dated 1/20/2018 8:38:51 PM US Mountain Standard Time, alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com writes: ? What a dream place! :D 2018-01-21 1:23 GMT-02:00 Ed Sharpe via cctalk : yikes.... that was a lot ?to carry up the stairs? ? ? In a message dated 1/20/2018 7:26:58 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? ?This is a digitized HI8 tape of a walk through of an early Warehouse Sale I ran from 1995 to 1998. There is a small sections of collectable computers in the middle of the tape with a few others scattered through the sale. Fond memories and hard to believe it was 22 years ago. https://youtu.be/8Pme8mZU-Xc -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA Virus-free. www.avg.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 22:06:11 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 23:06:11 -0500 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: References: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:32 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I think just the VR12, VR14, and the VR17. OK. I've never had any of those. I'm more wondering what modern tubes might work. > I might have an extra VT11 backplane. I may also have the backplane. I'm not as certain of that. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 22:07:23 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 23:07:23 -0500 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: <48873D14-6616-486D-A2AB-E1EA409B4139@shiresoft.com> References: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <48873D14-6616-486D-A2AB-E1EA409B4139@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:58 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > As I understand it, the power for the DACs actually comes from the monitor (VR12/4/7) and > thus you can?t use any monitor without some additional circuitry to provide the power to the > DACs. Interesting. I didn't know that about the VT11. Seems that it wouldn't be that hard to make an external PSU to replace that. -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jan 20 22:25:39 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 20:25:39 -0800 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: References: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <48873D14-6616-486D-A2AB-E1EA409B4139@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 20, 2018, at 8:07 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:58 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> As I understand it, the power for the DACs actually comes from the monitor (VR12/4/7) and >> thus you can?t use any monitor without some additional circuitry to provide the power to the >> DACs. > > Interesting. I didn't know that about the VT11. Seems that it > wouldn't be that hard to make an external PSU to replace that. I looked into it a while ago (since I have a VT11 somewhere but no tube). Too many other projects and *work* have gotten in the way. I?ll get back to it eventually unless someone beats me to it. ;-) TTFN - Guy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 22:44:55 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 23:44:55 -0500 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: References: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <48873D14-6616-486D-A2AB-E1EA409B4139@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:25 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> On Jan 20, 2018, at 8:07 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:58 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >>> As I understand it, the power for the DACs actually comes from the monitor... >> >> ... Seems that it wouldn't be that hard to make an external PSU to replace that. > > I looked into it a while ago (since I have a VT11 somewhere but no tube). Too many > other projects and *work* have gotten in the way. I?ll get back to it eventually unless > someone beats me to it. ;-) I am unlikely to beat you to it, so I will keep an eye open for anyone attempting it. Practically speaking, beyond playing Lunar Landar, I don't know what I would do with a VT11/GT40 anyway. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jan 21 01:03:34 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 02:03:34 -0500 Subject: Help identifying IC In-Reply-To: <2bbf07cc-d69d-2022-9e84-bc298dffd313@gmail.com> References: <2bbf07cc-d69d-2022-9e84-bc298dffd313@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hi all -- > > I picked up this little toy at VCF West last summer: > > https://1drv.ms/i/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMouYd0HV0ZThE3FnE_Q Cute! > As far as I can tell, it's supposed to be a clock Sure looks like one. > Can't find anything about this item at all. At the moment I'm curious what > the 28-pin IC at the top is There are a number of 28-pin clock ICs from the era... MK50250 http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf/MK50250_Clock.pdf MM5313 / MM5315 http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/nixies/mm5309-5311-5312-5313-5314-5315.pdf I'm sure there are more. -ethan From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jan 21 04:08:53 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 02:08:53 -0800 Subject: A walk through of my legendary warehouse sale in the 1990s. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jan 20, 2018, at 18:26, Paxton Hoag via cctalk wrote: > > This is a digitized HI8 tape of a walk through of an early Warehouse Sale I > ran from 1995 to 1998. There is a small sections of collectable computers > in the middle of the tape with a few others scattered through the sale. > Fond memories and hard to believe it was 22 years ago. I see some DEC gear that I covet at 3:48. Now where did I leave my time machine? https://youtu.be/8Pme8mZU-Xc?t=3m48s More retro computer gear begins showing up at 8:36: https://youtu.be/8Pme8mZU-Xc?t=8m36s I think I see some Color Computers at 12:17. https://youtu.be/8Pme8mZU-Xc?t=12m17s Heaps of DEC toys at 19:15! https://youtu.be/8Pme8mZU-Xc?t=19m15s From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Jan 21 09:22:58 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 15:22:58 +0000 Subject: Apollo Software Message-ID: Is there any interest or value in copies of SR7.0 "Aegis" or should I just scratch them and add them to my other 8" disks? (Yes, I used to have an Apollo in my house!! Made a great heater during those long cold winters.) bill From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jan 21 10:00:42 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 11:00:42 -0500 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4996f2d2-e295-9a03-287b-3736c6e4c254@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-01-21 10:22 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Is there any interest or value in copies of SR7.0 "Aegis" > or should I just scratch them and add them to my other 8" > disks? (Yes, I used to have an Apollo in my house!! Made > a great heater during those long cold winters.) I vote for imaging and archiving ... Apollo material is rare and hard to find afaik. What hardware is that compatible with? --Toby > > bill > > From rtomek at ceti.pl Sun Jan 21 11:30:53 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 18:30:53 +0100 Subject: Even old accounting software needs love and rescuing from oblivion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180121173053.GA32566@tau1.ceti.pl> On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 09:16:22AM +1300, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > On the weekend I rescued some old software. It gave me an excuse to get my > first micro out of its box and stretch its legs. > > Accounting packages hardly set the world alight but being a Dick Smith > release for the System 80, it does have its place in Australasian computer > history. Anyway, if anyone is interested, here is the URL. > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-01-12-rescuing-more-dick-smith-software.htm A tip to clean floppies by soap and water - priceless. Despite me having no floppies worthy this much soap. I guess this could be tried for salvaging CDs, too - anyway, I have few misburned CDs living their second life as coasters (very stylish, blinkey, eco-friendly and stuff) and from time to time I give them a wash. So far (about ten-fifteen washes over few years), no signs of wash-related degradation, so perhaps I will (someday in a future) try it on some data CDs if they happen to be in bad condition on that particular date. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Jan 21 11:36:44 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 17:36:44 +0000 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: <4996f2d2-e295-9a03-287b-3736c6e4c254@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4996f2d2-e295-9a03-287b-3736c6e4c254@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: I don't have the equipment to image them. I do have PDP-11's that can always use another 8" disk. I don't remember what model they are from I got rid of that machine over 20 years ago. Just trying to find out if they are worth trying to sell or just repurpose. bill ________________________________ From: Toby Thain Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 11:00 AM To: Bill Gunshannon; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apollo Software On 2018-01-21 10:22 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Is there any interest or value in copies of SR7.0 "Aegis" > or should I just scratch them and add them to my other 8" > disks? (Yes, I used to have an Apollo in my house!! Made > a great heater during those long cold winters.) I vote for imaging and archiving ... Apollo material is rare and hard to find afaik. What hardware is that compatible with? --Toby > > bill > > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 21 11:50:13 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 09:50:13 -0800 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20f186f1-2d46-6057-5dcc-1ed5f4e471b1@gmail.com> On 1/21/2018 7:22 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Is there any interest or value in copies of SR7.0 "Aegis" > or should I just scratch them and add them to my other 8" > disks? (Yes, I used to have an Apollo in my house!! Made > a great heater during those long cold winters.) > > bill > > Definitely worth saving.? I have facilities for imaging these and I'd be happy to take them on, if no one else is excited to do so :). - Josh From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jan 21 12:04:46 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 13:04:46 -0500 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: References: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5585BCA4-BB03-43E6-A99F-28A9D14BB2FA@comcast.net> > On Jan 20, 2018, at 11:06 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:32 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> I think just the VR12, VR14, and the VR17. > > OK. I've never had any of those. I'm more wondering what modern > tubes might work. Remember that the GT40 is a vector drawing display, not a raster scan. So you need a tube and associated deflection machinery that can handle high frequency X and Y deflection waveforms accurately. This is not easy, especially with magnetic deflection. I don't know what DEC used; CDC did it both ways with the 6000 series consoles. The original ones had "dual radar tubes" with electrostatic deflection, hairy circuits with 3cx100a5 final amplifier tubes. The next generation, in the 170 series, had a single large tube with magnetic deflection but still random access vector drawing. How they did that with magnetic deflection is not clear to me, it sounds hard. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 21 12:12:33 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:12:33 -0800 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: <5585BCA4-BB03-43E6-A99F-28A9D14BB2FA@comcast.net> References: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5585BCA4-BB03-43E6-A99F-28A9D14BB2FA@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5bd9c9e7-f578-2a90-1c45-45b175bc10cb@bitsavers.org> On 1/21/18 10:04 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Remember that the GT40 is a vector drawing display, not a raster scan. So you need a tube and associated deflection machinery that can handle high frequency X and Y deflection waveforms accurately. This is not easy, especially with magnetic deflection. I don't know what DEC used Electromagnetic The deflection amps on vr14s and 17s were notorious for blowing out. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 21 12:13:27 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:13:27 -0800 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: <5bd9c9e7-f578-2a90-1c45-45b175bc10cb@bitsavers.org> References: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5585BCA4-BB03-43E6-A99F-28A9D14BB2FA@comcast.net> <5bd9c9e7-f578-2a90-1c45-45b175bc10cb@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <805247cb-bef2-b97f-e959-44f270a8c273@bitsavers.org> On 1/21/18 10:12 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/21/18 10:04 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> Remember that the GT40 is a vector drawing display, not a raster scan. So you need a tube and associated deflection machinery that can handle high frequency X and Y deflection waveforms accurately. This is not easy, especially with magnetic deflection. I don't know what DEC used > > Electromagnetic > > The deflection amps on vr14s and 17s were notorious for blowing out. > > the phosphor is long-persistance green From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jan 21 12:48:24 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:48:24 -0800 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: <805247cb-bef2-b97f-e959-44f270a8c273@bitsavers.org> References: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5585BCA4-BB03-43E6-A99F-28A9D14BB2FA@comcast.net> <5bd9c9e7-f578-2a90-1c45-45b175bc10cb@bitsavers.org> <805247cb-bef2-b97f-e959-44f270a8c273@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0EA22391-BD87-40D9-B18A-CA5DDB561D0C@shiresoft.com> > On Jan 21, 2018, at 10:13 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 1/21/18 10:12 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 1/21/18 10:04 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Remember that the GT40 is a vector drawing display, not a raster scan. So you need a tube and associated deflection machinery that can handle high frequency X and Y deflection waveforms accurately. This is not easy, especially with magnetic deflection. I don't know what DEC used >> >> Electromagnetic >> >> The deflection amps on vr14s and 17s were notorious for blowing out. >> >> > > the phosphor is long-persistance green HP made some wonderful 17? and 19? electrostatic deflection vector displays. We had a pile of them at CMU driven by a custom GDP (some had 10-bit DACs, some had 12-bit DACs) that was front-ended by a PDP-11 (usually an 11/20). It was a *wonderful* combination! TTFN - Guy From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jan 21 13:25:55 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 13:25:55 -0600 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? Message-ID: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I hurt) a Microvax II from another list member yesterday. Cosmetically it's a disaster (BA123 has a cracked top panel, broken wheels, missing front door, missing right-rear panel) but internally it appears to be complete; board wise we have: M7606 - CPU M7608 - 4MB ram M9047 - grant continuity M7504 - DEQNA ethernet M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller M7546 - TX50 controller ... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity). Operational status is a complete unknown, and I have absolutely zero knowledge about these systems - so my question at this stage is what background reading I need to be doing in terms of pre-powerup* checks, actually hooking a console, if there's a suggested minimal config I can use to diag the CPU, and then (assuming it gets to that point) how to actually use the thing (I'm assuming it was running VMS rather than Ultrix, but I don't know for sure). I'm wondering there aren't any handy tutorials out there, alongside whatever DEC docs are recommended. * e.g. for most machines I'd be thinking in terms of pulling all boards/drives, hooking up a dummy load to whatever PSU rails required it, and then at least running the PSU up in isolation first, but I don't know to what extent this machine requires some logic in place for the PSU to even run. cheers Jules From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Sun Jan 21 13:42:29 2018 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 06:42:29 +1100 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: <20f186f1-2d46-6057-5dcc-1ed5f4e471b1@gmail.com> References: <20f186f1-2d46-6057-5dcc-1ed5f4e471b1@gmail.com> Message-ID: The HP Computer Museum would be happy to host copies of any Apollo software if it can be imaged.. David Collins Sent from my iPad > On 22 Jan 2018, at 4:50 am, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > >> On 1/21/2018 7:22 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> Is there any interest or value in copies of SR7.0 "Aegis" >> or should I just scratch them and add them to my other 8" >> disks? (Yes, I used to have an Apollo in my house!! Made >> a great heater during those long cold winters.) >> >> bill >> >> > > Definitely worth saving. I have facilities for imaging these and I'd be happy to take them on, if no one else is excited to do so :). > > - Josh From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 21 13:47:31 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 11:47:31 -0800 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: <0EA22391-BD87-40D9-B18A-CA5DDB561D0C@shiresoft.com> References: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5585BCA4-BB03-43E6-A99F-28A9D14BB2FA@comcast.net> <5bd9c9e7-f578-2a90-1c45-45b175bc10cb@bitsavers.org> <805247cb-bef2-b97f-e959-44f270a8c273@bitsavers.org> <0EA22391-BD87-40D9-B18A-CA5DDB561D0C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5c988af6-643d-9abf-3469-330f68383bff@bitsavers.org> HP1311A is what was used in Galaxy Game https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=732 The actual GG controller is a microcoded 2903 bitslice that sits on the Unibus Supposed to be similar to the VT-48 Didn't James build something (FPGA based?) to play the game? On 1/21/18 10:48 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > HP made some wonderful 17? and 19? electrostatic deflection vector displays. We had a pile of them at > CMU driven by a custom GDP (some had 10-bit DACs, some had 12-bit DACs) that was front-ended by > a PDP-11 (usually an 11/20). It was a *wonderful* combination! > > TTFN - Guy > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 21 13:50:03 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 11:50:03 -0800 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: References: <20f186f1-2d46-6057-5dcc-1ed5f4e471b1@gmail.com> Message-ID: CHM has an agreement with HP to host Apollo and 68K HP 9000 software legally. On 1/21/18 11:42 AM, David Collins via cctalk wrote: > The HP Computer Museum would be happy to host copies of any Apollo software if it can be imaged.. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jan 21 13:54:11 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 14:54:11 -0500 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: References: <20f186f1-2d46-6057-5dcc-1ed5f4e471b1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6E382064-CC19-442F-B566-A20C81CB6717@comcast.net> > On Jan 21, 2018, at 2:50 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > CHM has an agreement with HP to host Apollo and 68K HP 9000 software legally. > > > On 1/21/18 11:42 AM, David Collins via cctalk wrote: >> The HP Computer Museum would be happy to host copies of any Apollo software if it can be imaged.. > I just dawned on me that the subject is Apollo the company bought by HP, not Apollo the spacecraft. Oh well... paul From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jan 21 14:02:09 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 14:02:09 -0600 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5A64F1C1.2020204@pico-systems.com> On 01/21/2018 01:25 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, > and now I hurt) a Microvax II from another list member > yesterday. Cosmetically it's a disaster (BA123 has a > cracked top panel, broken wheels, missing front door, > missing right-rear panel) but internally it appears to be > complete; board wise we have: > > M7606 - CPU > M7608 - 4MB ram > M9047 - grant continuity > M7504 - DEQNA ethernet > M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial > M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller > M7546 - TX50 controller > > ... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity). > > Operational status is a complete unknown, and I have > absolutely zero knowledge about these systems - so my > question at this stage is what background reading I need > to be doing in terms of pre-powerup* checks, actually > hooking a console, if there's a suggested minimal config I > can use to diag the CPU, and then (assuming it gets to > that point) how to actually use the thing (I'm assuming it > was running VMS rather than Ultrix, but I don't know for > sure). I'm wondering there aren't any handy tutorials out > there, alongside whatever DEC docs are recommended. > > * e.g. for most machines I'd be thinking in terms of > pulling all boards/drives, hooking up a dummy load to > whatever PSU rails required it, and then at least running > the PSU up in isolation first, but I don't know to what > extent this machine requires some logic in place for the > PSU to even run. > Well, you need to hook up a serial terminal, set the baud rate, and see if it gives the power-on self diagnostic sequence. The TK50 is likely not going to work due to deteriorated rubber rollers and such. Does it have a disk drive? If not, it won't do much. If it does, it is a bit iffy if the drive will spin up and unlock heads. I have a similar setup here, but my SCSI disk drive died. The CPU still fires up just fine - amazing for a machine I ran for 21 years. Jon From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jan 21 14:19:41 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 14:19:41 -0600 Subject: Adaptec 1522A SCSI Support (was re: New TestFDC Results Registry) In-Reply-To: <20180119164450.GA16663@allie.home.misty.com> References: <7F73A368-8106-4DF3-AC83-8611C9FCF623@verizon.net> <20180119164450.GA16663@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 10:44 AM, Mark G Thomas wrote: > I think you want this: http://files.markgthomas.com/dl/adaptec/EZSCSI40.IMD > (This URL is temporary.) Ahh I didn't realize it was just the EZSCSI disk. Grabbed it just in case, as I don't know which version(s) I have. Thanks! -j From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jan 21 14:48:17 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 12:48:17 -0800 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: <5c988af6-643d-9abf-3469-330f68383bff@bitsavers.org> References: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5585BCA4-BB03-43E6-A99F-28A9D14BB2FA@comcast.net> <5bd9c9e7-f578-2a90-1c45-45b175bc10cb@bitsavers.org> <805247cb-bef2-b97f-e959-44f270a8c273@bitsavers.org> <0EA22391-BD87-40D9-B18A-CA5DDB561D0C@shiresoft.com> <5c988af6-643d-9abf-3469-330f68383bff@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Jan 21, 2018, at 11:47 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > HP1311A is what was used in Galaxy Game > https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=732 > > The actual GG controller is a microcoded 2903 bitslice that sits on the Unibus > Supposed to be similar to the VT-48 > > Didn't James build something (FPGA based?) to play the game? James may have done something on this. I?m not sure. I do know that the CMU GDP did not have any VLSI (or LSI) in it. It was pretty straight SSI and MSI TTL from what I can recall with a bunch of custom built DACs. The GDP was connected to the UNIBUS but it was a separate box (1U/2U) from the 11/20. TTFN - Guy > > > On 1/21/18 10:48 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > >> HP made some wonderful 17? and 19? electrostatic deflection vector displays. We had a pile of them at >> CMU driven by a custom GDP (some had 10-bit DACs, some had 12-bit DACs) that was front-ended by >> a PDP-11 (usually an 11/20). It was a *wonderful* combination! >> >> TTFN - Guy >> > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jan 21 15:20:30 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 13:20:30 -0800 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 11:25 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I hurt) a > Microvax II from another list member yesterday. Cosmetically it's a disaster > (BA123 has a cracked top panel, broken wheels, missing front door, missing > right-rear panel) but internally it appears to be complete; board wise we > have: > > M7606 - CPU > M7608 - 4MB ram > M9047 - grant continuity > M7504 - DEQNA ethernet > M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial > M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller > M7546 - TX50 controller > > ... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity). > First thing I would do myself is remove the NiCad battery pack from the back of the console connector bulkhead panel and inspect the console panel PCB for any signs of corrosion. In my experience those old NiCad battery packs can leak and start to destroy anything near them. Note that the DB9 connector on the MicroVAX KA630 / 650 / 655 console bulkhead panel is not the same as the usual PC standard. For DEC original cables you need a BCC08, or if you're doing MMJ cables an H8571-B or an H8575-B MMJ adapter. Of course you can always build your own cable. Table 14-7 MicroVAX DB9 Pin-out http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/faq/vmsfaq_025.html#tbl_uvdb9 Table 14-8 DECconnect MMJ Connectors and Adapters http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/faq/vmsfaq_025.html#wires2 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/630/ MP02071_630QB_Mar85.pdf -- Maintenance Print Set Page 85 of the PDF, Function Selection & SLU Module (FS&SLU) for M7608 (KA630) AZ-GM3AA-MN_uVAXII_Maint_Oct85.pdf -- MicroVAX Maintenance Guide Page 23 of the PDF, page 1-15, FIGURE 1-10 Backplane Grant Continuity If this is your first time with a BA123 it is important to note that the right most slots 1 through 4 are Q22/CD slots. Don't put any dual wide cards in the lower CD half of slots 1 through 4. The CPU should always be in slot 1 and the first memory card in slot 2. If you have a second memory card it would go in slot 3. If slot 3 or slot 4 would otherwise be empty you need an M9047 grant continuity only in the top AB half of the slots. If any AB or CD half of slots 5 through 12 would otherwise be empty you need an M9047 grant continuity in each half between the CPU and the last slot that is in use. The M7606 KA630 CPU contains 1MB. Together with the M7608 4MB memory board you then have 5MB total. I've never tried running a system with that little memory. If you're actually going to do anything with the system you might look for a cheap M7609 8MB memory board to use instead for 9MB, or use both for 13MB if you have a 3-way memory bus cable. If it was me I might look for a cheap M7620 KA650 or M7625 KA655 CPU and 1 to 3 M7622 16MB memory boards. Those CPUs can use up to 64MB but you are limited to 3 memory boards in a BA123 because there are only 4 Q22/CD slots. I maxed out my own BA123 with an M7625 KA655 CPU and 2 Dataram 32MB memory boards to get to 64MB. -Glen From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 21 16:04:14 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 22:04:14 -0000 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005301d39303$c6d5c640$548152c0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules > Richardson via cctalk > Sent: 21 January 2018 19:26 > To: xx Classiccmp mailing list > Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? > > > So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I hurt) a Microvax > II from another list member yesterday. Cosmetically it's a disaster (BA123 has a > cracked top panel, broken wheels, missing front door, missing right-rear panel) > but internally it appears to be complete; board wise we have: > > M7606 - CPU > M7608 - 4MB ram > M9047 - grant continuity > M7504 - DEQNA ethernet > M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial > M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller > M7546 - TX50 controller > > ... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity). > > Operational status is a complete unknown, and I have absolutely zero > knowledge about these systems - so my question at this stage is what > background reading I need to be doing in terms of pre-powerup* checks, > actually hooking a console, if there's a suggested minimal config I can use to > diag the CPU, and then (assuming it gets to that point) how to actually use the > thing (I'm assuming it was running VMS rather than Ultrix, but I don't know for > sure). I'm wondering there aren't any handy tutorials out there, alongside > whatever DEC docs are recommended. > > * e.g. for most machines I'd be thinking in terms of pulling all boards/drives, > hooking up a dummy load to whatever PSU rails required it, and then at least > running the PSU up in isolation first, but I don't know to what extent this > machine requires some logic in place for the PSU to even run. > > cheers > You might find that the filter capacitor goes up in smoke soon after you connect the PSU to the mains, even without powering it on. It doesn't actually do any damage and the PSU will continue to work (assuming it is just the filter capacitor). Check it, it is likely cracked and will soon go. If I remember correctly there are actually two of three of these (marked "RIFA"), it is probably a good idea just to replace them before they go. Otherwise it is certainly wise to check the PSU visually for any obviously failed electrolytics. If you have one of the DEC load boards you could connect the PSU to that as a dummy load. I don't think there is much in the way of dependency on the CPU to run the PSU. Once you have the machine up and running the easiest thing to do is to boot it over the DEQNA by setting up a cluster on SIMH and making your MicroVAX II a satellite. I am not sure if 4MB is enough to do that though. Go with a 5.x version of VMS as I believe later versions may not support the DEQNA. Regards Rob From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Sun Jan 21 12:08:57 2018 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 12:08:57 -0600 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: <5585BCA4-BB03-43E6-A99F-28A9D14BB2FA@comcast.net> References: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5585BCA4-BB03-43E6-A99F-28A9D14BB2FA@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8fde64c5-4f0a-4457-2c73-c55a4e59ed94@figureeightbrewing.com> On 1/21/18 12:04 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jan 20, 2018, at 11:06 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:32 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >>> I think just the VR12, VR14, and the VR17. >> OK. I've never had any of those. I'm more wondering what modern >> tubes might work. > Remember that the GT40 is a vector drawing display, not a raster scan. So you need a tube and associated deflection machinery that can handle high frequency X and Y deflection waveforms accurately. This is not easy, especially with magnetic deflection. I don't know what DEC used; CDC did it both ways with the 6000 series consoles. The original ones had "dual radar tubes" with electrostatic deflection, hairy circuits with 3cx100a5 final amplifier tubes. The next generation, in the 170 series, had a single large tube with magnetic deflection but still random access vector drawing. How they did that with magnetic deflection is not clear to me, it sounds hard. > > paul > > I'm sure it has been mentioned in past discussions on this topic, but a monochrome atari video game monitor would likely be relatively easy to use as a GT40 display. --tom From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Sun Jan 21 16:47:03 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 15:47:03 -0700 Subject: Sun3 valuations? Message-ID: I have some sun3/vme systems Several 3/60 3/260 sparcstation 4/370 SMD disk array for 3/260 The 3/260 and 4/370 have some oddball boards for data (cosys) and video acquisition (Aviv). I also have some spare sparcstation 10s and 20s. I haven't seen sun3 stuff for sale much. Does anyone know approximate valuations for tested systems? Regards, Kevin From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jan 21 16:50:44 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 15:50:44 -0700 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: <005301d39303$c6d5c640$548152c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> <005301d39303$c6d5c640$548152c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 3:04 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules > > Richardson via cctalk > > Sent: 21 January 2018 19:26 > > To: xx Classiccmp mailing list > > Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? > > > > > > So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I hurt) > a > Microvax > > II from another list member yesterday. Cosmetically it's a disaster > (BA123 > has a > > cracked top panel, broken wheels, missing front door, missing right-rear > panel) > > but internally it appears to be complete; board wise we have: > > > > M7606 - CPU > > M7608 - 4MB ram > > M9047 - grant continuity > > M7504 - DEQNA ethernet > > M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial > > M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller > > M7546 - TX50 controller > > > > ... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity). > > > > Operational status is a complete unknown, and I have absolutely zero > > knowledge about these systems - so my question at this stage is what > > background reading I need to be doing in terms of pre-powerup* checks, > > actually hooking a console, if there's a suggested minimal config I can > use to > > diag the CPU, and then (assuming it gets to that point) how to actually > use the > > thing (I'm assuming it was running VMS rather than Ultrix, but I don't > know for > > sure). I'm wondering there aren't any handy tutorials out there, > alongside > > whatever DEC docs are recommended. > > > > * e.g. for most machines I'd be thinking in terms of pulling all > boards/drives, > > hooking up a dummy load to whatever PSU rails required it, and then at > least > > running the PSU up in isolation first, but I don't know to what extent > this > > machine requires some logic in place for the PSU to even run. > > > > cheers > > > > > You might find that the filter capacitor goes up in smoke soon after you > connect the PSU to the mains, even without powering it on. It doesn't > actually do any damage and the PSU will continue to work (assuming it is > just the filter capacitor). Check it, it is likely cracked and will soon > go. > If I remember correctly there are actually two of three of these (marked > "RIFA"), it is probably a good idea just to replace them before they go. > Otherwise it is certainly wise to check the PSU visually for any obviously > failed electrolytics. If you have one of the DEC load boards you could > connect the PSU to that as a dummy load. I don't think there is much in the > way of dependency on the CPU to run the PSU. > > Once you have the machine up and running the easiest thing to do is to boot > it over the DEQNA by setting up a cluster on SIMH and making your MicroVAX > II a satellite. I am not sure if 4MB is enough to do that though. Go with a > 5.x version of VMS as I believe later versions may not support the DEQNA. > The DEQNA is obsolete (even by Q-bus standards), troublesome , and not supported by VMS since about V5.4. A compatible card, the DELQA , replaces the DEQNA. I was going to say VMS 4 is a better bet since 5 removed support, but looks like 5.4 is the last version with support. Though the MicroVAX is UP, so you might be better off with VMS 4 instead of VMS 5. Warner From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jan 21 16:51:37 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 15:51:37 -0700 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> <005301d39303$c6d5c640$548152c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 3:50 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 3:04 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules >> > Richardson via cctalk >> > Sent: 21 January 2018 19:26 >> > To: xx Classiccmp mailing list >> > Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? >> > >> > >> > So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I >> hurt) a >> Microvax >> > II from another list member yesterday. Cosmetically it's a disaster >> (BA123 >> has a >> > cracked top panel, broken wheels, missing front door, missing right-rear >> panel) >> > but internally it appears to be complete; board wise we have: >> > >> > M7606 - CPU >> > M7608 - 4MB ram >> > M9047 - grant continuity >> > M7504 - DEQNA ethernet >> > M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial >> > M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller >> > M7546 - TX50 controller >> > >> > ... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity). >> > >> > Operational status is a complete unknown, and I have absolutely zero >> > knowledge about these systems - so my question at this stage is what >> > background reading I need to be doing in terms of pre-powerup* checks, >> > actually hooking a console, if there's a suggested minimal config I can >> use to >> > diag the CPU, and then (assuming it gets to that point) how to actually >> use the >> > thing (I'm assuming it was running VMS rather than Ultrix, but I don't >> know for >> > sure). I'm wondering there aren't any handy tutorials out there, >> alongside >> > whatever DEC docs are recommended. >> > >> > * e.g. for most machines I'd be thinking in terms of pulling all >> boards/drives, >> > hooking up a dummy load to whatever PSU rails required it, and then at >> least >> > running the PSU up in isolation first, but I don't know to what extent >> this >> > machine requires some logic in place for the PSU to even run. >> > >> > cheers >> > >> >> >> You might find that the filter capacitor goes up in smoke soon after you >> connect the PSU to the mains, even without powering it on. It doesn't >> actually do any damage and the PSU will continue to work (assuming it is >> just the filter capacitor). Check it, it is likely cracked and will soon >> go. >> If I remember correctly there are actually two of three of these (marked >> "RIFA"), it is probably a good idea just to replace them before they go. >> Otherwise it is certainly wise to check the PSU visually for any obviously >> failed electrolytics. If you have one of the DEC load boards you could >> connect the PSU to that as a dummy load. I don't think there is much in >> the >> way of dependency on the CPU to run the PSU. >> >> Once you have the machine up and running the easiest thing to do is to >> boot >> it over the DEQNA by setting up a cluster on SIMH and making your MicroVAX >> II a satellite. I am not sure if 4MB is enough to do that though. Go with >> a >> 5.x version of VMS as I believe later versions may not support the DEQNA. >> > > Doh! Hit send too soon: The website http://antinode.info/dec/deqna_settings.html says > The DEQNA is obsolete (even by Q-bus standards), troublesome > , and not > supported by VMS > since about > V5.4. A compatible card, the DELQA > , replaces the DEQNA. > the rest is me > I was going to say VMS 4 is a better bet since 5 removed support, but > looks like 5.4 is the last version with support. Though the MicroVAX is UP, > so you might be better off with VMS 4 instead of VMS 5. > > Warner > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 21 17:12:18 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 23:12:18 -0000 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> <005301d39303$c6d5c640$548152c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <006401d3930d$494d0a80$dbe71f80$@ntlworld.com> When I was talking about VMS 5.x I meant that cluster to net boot from. I would suggest MicroVMS for the machine itself. Regards Rob From: wlosh at bsdimp.com [mailto:wlosh at bsdimp.com] On Behalf Of Warner Losh Sent: 21 January 2018 22:52 To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Jules Richardson Subject: Re: Microvax II 'primer'? On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 3:50 PM, Warner Losh > wrote: On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 3:04 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org ] On Behalf Of Jules > Richardson via cctalk > Sent: 21 January 2018 19:26 > To: xx Classiccmp mailing list > > Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? > > > So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I hurt) a Microvax > II from another list member yesterday. Cosmetically it's a disaster (BA123 has a > cracked top panel, broken wheels, missing front door, missing right-rear panel) > but internally it appears to be complete; board wise we have: > > M7606 - CPU > M7608 - 4MB ram > M9047 - grant continuity > M7504 - DEQNA ethernet > M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial > M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller > M7546 - TX50 controller > > ... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity). > > Operational status is a complete unknown, and I have absolutely zero > knowledge about these systems - so my question at this stage is what > background reading I need to be doing in terms of pre-powerup* checks, > actually hooking a console, if there's a suggested minimal config I can use to > diag the CPU, and then (assuming it gets to that point) how to actually use the > thing (I'm assuming it was running VMS rather than Ultrix, but I don't know for > sure). I'm wondering there aren't any handy tutorials out there, alongside > whatever DEC docs are recommended. > > * e.g. for most machines I'd be thinking in terms of pulling all boards/drives, > hooking up a dummy load to whatever PSU rails required it, and then at least > running the PSU up in isolation first, but I don't know to what extent this > machine requires some logic in place for the PSU to even run. > > cheers > You might find that the filter capacitor goes up in smoke soon after you connect the PSU to the mains, even without powering it on. It doesn't actually do any damage and the PSU will continue to work (assuming it is just the filter capacitor). Check it, it is likely cracked and will soon go. If I remember correctly there are actually two of three of these (marked "RIFA"), it is probably a good idea just to replace them before they go. Otherwise it is certainly wise to check the PSU visually for any obviously failed electrolytics. If you have one of the DEC load boards you could connect the PSU to that as a dummy load. I don't think there is much in the way of dependency on the CPU to run the PSU. Once you have the machine up and running the easiest thing to do is to boot it over the DEQNA by setting up a cluster on SIMH and making your MicroVAX II a satellite. I am not sure if 4MB is enough to do that though. Go with a 5.x version of VMS as I believe later versions may not support the DEQNA. Doh! Hit send too soon: The website http://antinode.info/dec/deqna_settings.html says The DEQNA is obsolete (even by Q-bus standards), troublesome , and not supported by VMS since about V5.4. A compatible card, the DELQA , replaces the DEQNA. the rest is me I was going to say VMS 4 is a better bet since 5 removed support, but looks like 5.4 is the last version with support. Though the MicroVAX is UP, so you might be better off with VMS 4 instead of VMS 5. Warner From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jan 21 17:43:06 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 18:43:06 -0500 Subject: MY COMPUTER LIKES ME when i speak in BASIC. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1611b1aa339-1723-568a9@webjas-vae216.srv.aolmail.net> Looks ?real Nice! Thanks ?for the electronic ?copy of this ?classic!? We have the paper ?copy ?but ?good ?to know?there is a back up ?out there! ? ? Ed# ?www.smecc.org? ? In a message dated 1/17/2018 7:28:34 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? I scanned a nice little booklet I found in my fathers stuff. "MY COMPUTER LIKES ME when i speak in BASIC" by Bob Albrecht. http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/my-computer-likes If someone feel like they can straighten it up, please do! I didn't feel like ripping it apart to have it scanned so it was troublesome to scan it perfectly in my page scanner. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 21 17:47:53 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 15:47:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: MY COMPUTER LIKES ME when i speak in BASIC. In-Reply-To: <1611b1aa339-1723-568a9@webjas-vae216.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1611b1aa339-1723-568a9@webjas-vae216.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: "MY COMPUTER LIKES ME when I speak in BASIC" Don't anthropomorphize computers. They hate it when you do that. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Jan 21 19:17:44 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 01:17:44 +0000 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My guess is it will cost you about $25 a pop to get rid of them. They can not be sent to the landfill as they pre-date RoHS by quite a bit. bill ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Kevin Bowling via cctalk Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 5:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Sun3 valuations? I have some sun3/vme systems Several 3/60 3/260 sparcstation 4/370 SMD disk array for 3/260 The 3/260 and 4/370 have some oddball boards for data (cosys) and video acquisition (Aviv). I also have some spare sparcstation 10s and 20s. I haven't seen sun3 stuff for sale much. Does anyone know approximate valuations for tested systems? Regards, Kevin From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Jan 21 19:30:03 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 17:30:03 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <273c0a53-4d70-048d-2ffa-a4e2fdf6bfea@jwsss.com> On 1/21/2018 2:47 PM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > I have some sun3/vme systems > > Several 3/60 > 3/260 > sparcstation 4/370 > SMD disk array for 3/260 > > The 3/260 and 4/370 have some oddball boards for data (cosys) and > video acquisition (Aviv). > > I also have some spare sparcstation 10s and 20s. > > I haven't seen sun3 stuff for sale much. Does anyone know approximate > valuations for tested systems? > > Regards, > Kevin > > Kevin, I've got a 3/260 which was formerly owned by Rockwell here in Orange County, CA.? I got it from storage of a friend who was reducing clutter at a site so can't help with valuation. It is the deskside unit which will be the Sun VME and VME adapter card they used equipped.? I've not opened it, but it may be a bit rangy. I don't have any of the disk bricks, and am hoping that some fiddling will allow me to run something more modern than the sun scsi bricks if I do run them.? Not sure what you have.? This is the deskside unit, and I'm not sure if they had hard drives integrated. My system uses QIC tapes, and I've got some tape which were in the pile, but have low expectations any of them are good.? Storage was not optimized, and even with that QIC is seldom useful at this point.? Best hope will be recovery if I need to to boot the system. I thin the 4x systems were supposed to have the Sparc first run processor, and the 3/xxx were to have 68000.? People could mix and match as could Sun.? I've owned and have running but long ago sold a 4/280 and had a couple of 3/280s, so have some experience. The 4/280 had Fuji SMD drives and were nice, but horrible power hogs, so I sold them off as they were large and I couldn't afford to run and maintain them.?? I'm curious where you are located, as my interest in this project is low, and you'd be welcome to try your project with anything I've got if you are going to restore them. Contact me off list if you wish to discuss more. thanks Jim From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sun Jan 21 19:33:12 2018 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 17:33:12 -0800 Subject: VCF PNW 2018 - less than three weeks away! Message-ID: Come join us in Seattle on February 10th and 11th for the first VCF PNW. We have 20 exhibits, six speakers, and a panel discussion planned. There will be a consignment area for buying and selling vintage gear, and of course there is an entire museum (Living Computers:Museum+Labs) to check out as well. The show is free with museum admission. More information can be found at https://goo.gl/AUoLU2 . You can also email questions to me. And lastly, we need your help - spread the word! Thanks, Mike From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jan 21 19:41:03 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 20:41:03 -0500 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9737421a-109c-0cda-ed47-8e75f29c9aef@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-01-21 5:47 PM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > I have some sun3/vme systems > > Several 3/60 > 3/260 > sparcstation 4/370 > SMD disk array for 3/260 > > The 3/260 and 4/370 have some oddball boards for data (cosys) and > video acquisition (Aviv). > > I also have some spare sparcstation 10s and 20s. > > I haven't seen sun3 stuff for sale much. Does anyone know approximate > valuations for tested systems? > > Regards, > Kevin > Where are you located? These are very nice systems, and not so easy to find any more. --Toby From trash80 at internode.on.net Sun Jan 21 19:59:50 2018 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 12:59:50 +1100 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <042f01d39324$b07e4f90$117aeeb0$@internode.on.net> Definitely interested here Bill - I've got 3 Apollos from a rescue - have the machines and all the token ring gear but no manuals or software - as yet have to fire them up but anything Aegis related is of interest to me. Kevin Parker P: 0418 815 527 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Monday, 22 January 2018 02:23 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Apollo Software Is there any interest or value in copies of SR7.0 "Aegis" or should I just scratch them and add them to my other 8" disks? (Yes, I used to have an Apollo in my house!! Made a great heater during those long cold winters.) bill From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Jan 21 20:11:06 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 18:11:06 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Location ? -pete On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 2:47 PM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have some sun3/vme systems > > Several 3/60 > 3/260 > sparcstation 4/370 > SMD disk array for 3/260 > > The 3/260 and 4/370 have some oddball boards for data (cosys) and > video acquisition (Aviv). > > I also have some spare sparcstation 10s and 20s. > > I haven't seen sun3 stuff for sale much. Does anyone know approximate > valuations for tested systems? > > Regards, > Kevin > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Jan 21 20:48:15 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 02:48:15 +0000 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: It's nice to see all the interest. I gave all my Sun stuff (except one UltraSPARC) to a museum several years ago and I hope they are still happily plugging away. bill ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Pete Lancashire via cctalk Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 9:11 PM To: Kevin Bowling; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Sun3 valuations? Location ? -pete On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 2:47 PM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have some sun3/vme systems > > Several 3/60 > 3/260 > sparcstation 4/370 > SMD disk array for 3/260 > > The 3/260 and 4/370 have some oddball boards for data (cosys) and > video acquisition (Aviv). > > I also have some spare sparcstation 10s and 20s. > > I haven't seen sun3 stuff for sale much. Does anyone know approximate > valuations for tested systems? > > Regards, > Kevin > > From cube1 at charter.net Sun Jan 21 21:16:27 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 21:16:27 -0600 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: References: <20f186f1-2d46-6057-5dcc-1ed5f4e471b1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <72026a12-ed87-f77a-9d33-070c22012980@charter.net> I wasn't aware of that. I have a ton of Apollo QIC images. Shall I put them up on my Google Drive for you to grab? On 1/21/2018 1:50 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > CHM has an agreement with HP to host Apollo and 68K HP 9000 software legally. > > > On 1/21/18 11:42 AM, David Collins via cctalk wrote: >> The HP Computer Museum would be happy to host copies of any Apollo software if it can be imaged.. > > From cube1 at charter.net Sun Jan 21 21:23:33 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 21:23:33 -0600 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: <042f01d39324$b07e4f90$117aeeb0$@internode.on.net> References: <042f01d39324$b07e4f90$117aeeb0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <05650f90-6d0b-e889-076f-51dd12976bd7@charter.net> A fair amount of Apollo software doc can be found at: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apollo/ I have other stuff that they probably don't have (yet), I just fired off a note to Al Kossow, and I expect that QIC tape images I have will end up on bitsavers.org/bits before too long. Things like Aegis SR 9.7, Domain/OS up to SR 10.4.1, Compilers, DPCE, NFS, Ethernet card drivers, Omniback, and the like. I also have the means to image 8" floppies of most any format (using my Catweasel) though it has been a wee while since I have done so. JRJ On 1/21/2018 7:59 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > Definitely interested here Bill - I've got 3 Apollos from a rescue - have the machines and all the token ring gear but no manuals > or software - as yet have to fire them up but anything Aegis related is of interest to me. > > > > > Kevin Parker > P: 0418 815 527 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > Sent: Monday, 22 January 2018 02:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Apollo Software > > Is there any interest or value in copies of SR7.0 "Aegis" > or should I just scratch them and add them to my other 8" > disks? (Yes, I used to have an Apollo in my house!! Made a great heater during those long cold winters.) > > bill > > From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Sun Jan 21 22:53:11 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 21:53:11 -0700 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Several people asked my location.. Phoenix, AZ. Freighting stuff is neither hard nor expensive if it comes to that but I'm just trying to gauge value at the moment. On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 3:47 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote: > I have some sun3/vme systems > > Several 3/60 > 3/260 > sparcstation 4/370 > SMD disk array for 3/260 > > The 3/260 and 4/370 have some oddball boards for data (cosys) and > video acquisition (Aviv). > > I also have some spare sparcstation 10s and 20s. > > I haven't seen sun3 stuff for sale much. Does anyone know approximate > valuations for tested systems? > > Regards, > Kevin From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jan 22 01:37:32 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 08:37:32 +0100 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> On 2018-01-21 23:47, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > I have some sun3/vme systems > > Several 3/60 > 3/260 > sparcstation 4/370 > SMD disk array for 3/260 > > The 3/260 and 4/370 have some oddball boards for data (cosys) and > video acquisition (Aviv). > > I also have some spare sparcstation 10s and 20s. > > I haven't seen sun3 stuff for sale much. Does anyone know approximate > valuations for tested systems? Hello Kevin, I would be interested in all the 68000 based systems. If you like to get rid of them, I would give them a good home. All the best, emanuel (colorado, usa) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 02:10:38 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 03:10:38 -0500 Subject: GT-40 etc. In-Reply-To: <5585BCA4-BB03-43E6-A99F-28A9D14BB2FA@comcast.net> References: <20180120211220.44AC518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5585BCA4-BB03-43E6-A99F-28A9D14BB2FA@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 1:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Jan 20, 2018, at 11:06 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:32 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >>> I think just the VR12, VR14, and the VR17. >> >> OK. I've never had any of those. I'm more wondering what modern >> tubes might work. > > Remember that the GT40 is a vector drawing display, not a raster scan. So you need a tube and associated deflection machinery that can handle high frequency X and Y deflection waveforms accurately. Yes. I do recall. I presently have no vector displays, not even an oscilloscope with X-Y inputs (I have used them in the past but I don't own any of my own). As Tom Uban mentioned elsewhere in the this thread, an Atari vector display could work - like the one in Lunar Lander/Asteroids (but as Al Kossow mentioned, the DEC displays were long-persistence green, not white). I don't own any Atari vector games either, but I do have a buddy in town with a Lunar Lander that I've had my eye on for quite some time (as it common with the breed, it also has blown deflector amps, but he has some spares that need to be swapped in - the game plays fine on an oscilloscope). So... for the future, it seems more likely to me that I'd encounter an Atari display than a DEC display but I'm happy to jump on whatever floats by first. Thanks for all the input. -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 02:17:13 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 09:17:13 +0100 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 16 January 2018 at 09:19, Martin Meiner via cctech wrote: > > It has always been my aim to be able toconnect a modem or an acoustic coupler directly to one of my ASCII terminals,dial a number and be connected?with Google! > > Something like Google-interface but convertedto match ASCII terminals (only text, very simple graphics). Your question is nonsensical. An internet connection is an Internet connection. What you run over it is up to you. Whereas I doubt a '70s mini will have a text-mode browser such as Lynx, Links or W3M, many will have TCP/IP. Just telnet to a Linux box and run one of those, or something akin. >From your question, I suspect you don't understand how TCP/IP and the WWW work. You need to learn that first before you can do this. It's not very hard or super-complex. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Jan 22 03:24:27 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 01:24:27 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> References: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: My interest would be from having the first Sun systems in the Portland Oregon area. It consisted of a 3/260 w a Fujitsu Eagle, and a 90 ips 9 track that I cant remember the make. Tied to it where 3 3/50s. Initially diskless then I added a 40 MB drive to each of them. Networked into the companies network, tapped into on of the yellow coaxes up in the ceiling. I all was for running Interleaf. Oh yea printing was via a Imagin (sp?) print engine. Purpose was composing and printing component specifications at Tektronix -pete On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 11:37 PM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2018-01-21 23:47, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > > I have some sun3/vme systems > > > > Several 3/60 > > 3/260 > > sparcstation 4/370 > > SMD disk array for 3/260 > > > > The 3/260 and 4/370 have some oddball boards for data (cosys) and > > video acquisition (Aviv). > > > > I also have some spare sparcstation 10s and 20s. > > > > I haven't seen sun3 stuff for sale much. Does anyone know approximate > > valuations for tested systems? > > Hello Kevin, > I would be interested in all the 68000 based systems. If you like to get > rid of them, I would give them a good home. > > All the best, > emanuel > (colorado, usa) > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 07:43:33 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:43:33 -0600 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: <005301d39303$c6d5c640$548152c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> <005301d39303$c6d5c640$548152c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <65204cb3-7822-bcbc-a970-33e013d31c4b@gmail.com> On 01/21/2018 04:04 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > You might find that the filter capacitor goes up in smoke soon after you > connect the PSU to the mains, even without powering it on. Yes, Adrian Graham mentioned that (via FB), too. I seem to have extremely good luck with the RF filter caps, unlike other people, but I'm always prepared for the cloud of smoke :-) > Otherwise it is certainly wise to check the PSU visually for any obviously > failed electrolytics. If you have one of the DEC load boards you could > connect the PSU to that as a dummy load. I don't think there is much in the > way of dependency on the CPU to run the PSU. At this stage I've got no idea if it's a SMPSU or a linear (I've not popped the panel off)... I suppose if it's linear then it perhaps doesn't even need a load to do its thing. If it's a switcher then I expect it'll at least need something on +5V, and maybe +12V too (unless it has built-in load resistors to keep the regulation happy, as designs occasionally do). I see on the output rating label that it lists connection points for different outputs, so maybe I just need to slap a couple of suitable resistors onto the +5V and +12V outputs so that they draw an amp or so, and see how it goes. > Once you have the machine up and running... Lets not get ahead of ourselves ;-) > I am not sure if 4MB is enough to do that though. Hmm, one of the things that I'm clueless about right now is how the bus evolved over the years - I've still got a pile of Q-bus boards which I saved from a recycler last year, and I know there's a 4MB board (made by Clearpoint, if I remember right) among them. But if that's designed for earlier PDP hardware then it's possibly no use whatsoever in a Vax world... cheers Jules From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 08:07:26 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:07:26 +0000 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: <65204cb3-7822-bcbc-a970-33e013d31c4b@gmail.com> References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> <005301d39303$c6d5c640$548152c0$@ntlworld.com> <65204cb3-7822-bcbc-a970-33e013d31c4b@gmail.com> Message-ID: >At this stage I've got no idea if it's a SMPSU or a linear (I've not popped the panel off)... I suppose if it's linear then it perhaps doesn't even need a load to do its thing. If it's a switcher then I expect it'll at least need something on +5V, and maybe +12V too (unless it has built-in load resistors to keep the regulation happy, as designs occasionally do). It's actually 3 separate boards and 2 identical discrete PSUs for +12 and +5 in a massive metal box, the thing is a beast and fits along the whole side of the machine behind the Q22 backplane. Cheers A On 22 January 2018 at 13:43, Jules Richardson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 01/21/2018 04:04 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> You might find that the filter capacitor goes up in smoke soon after you >> connect the PSU to the mains, even without powering it on. >> > > Yes, Adrian Graham mentioned that (via FB), too. I seem to have extremely > good luck with the RF filter caps, unlike other people, but I'm always > prepared for the cloud of smoke :-) > > Otherwise it is certainly wise to check the PSU visually for any obviously >> failed electrolytics. If you have one of the DEC load boards you could >> connect the PSU to that as a dummy load. I don't think there is much in >> the >> way of dependency on the CPU to run the PSU. >> > > At this stage I've got no idea if it's a SMPSU or a linear (I've not > popped the panel off)... I suppose if it's linear then it perhaps doesn't > even need a load to do its thing. If it's a switcher then I expect it'll at > least need something on +5V, and maybe +12V too (unless it has built-in > load resistors to keep the regulation happy, as designs occasionally do). > > I see on the output rating label that it lists connection points for > different outputs, so maybe I just need to slap a couple of suitable > resistors onto the +5V and +12V outputs so that they draw an amp or so, and > see how it goes. > > Once you have the machine up and running... >> > > Lets not get ahead of ourselves ;-) > > I am not sure if 4MB is enough to do that though. >> > > Hmm, one of the things that I'm clueless about right now is how the bus > evolved over the years - I've still got a pile of Q-bus boards which I > saved from a recycler last year, and I know there's a 4MB board (made by > Clearpoint, if I remember right) among them. But if that's designed for > earlier PDP hardware then it's possibly no use whatsoever in a Vax world... > > cheers > > Jules > > -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 08:44:11 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 09:44:11 -0500 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Martin's question is not nonsensical, and I imagine he understands the applicable networking concepts. His goal is to replicate the original dialup user experience and add a useful modern component - it's hard to justify keeping large machinery around if it's only there to look at. By adding the Google part, even if text-only, he can bring a bit of modern use to ancient but nostalgic hardware. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 3:17 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 16 January 2018 at 09:19, Martin Meiner via cctech > wrote: > > > > It has always been my aim to be able toconnect a modem or an acoustic > coupler directly to one of my ASCII terminals,dial a number and be > connected?with Google! > > > > Something like Google-interface but convertedto match ASCII terminals > (only text, very simple graphics). > > Your question is nonsensical. An internet connection is an Internet > connection. What you run over it is up to you. > > Whereas I doubt a '70s mini will have a text-mode browser such as > Lynx, Links or W3M, many will have TCP/IP. Just telnet to a Linux box > and run one of those, or something akin. > > From your question, I suspect you don't understand how TCP/IP and the > WWW work. You need to learn that first before you can do this. It's > not very hard or super-complex. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 08:44:11 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 09:44:11 -0500 Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Martin's question is not nonsensical, and I imagine he understands the applicable networking concepts. His goal is to replicate the original dialup user experience and add a useful modern component - it's hard to justify keeping large machinery around if it's only there to look at. By adding the Google part, even if text-only, he can bring a bit of modern use to ancient but nostalgic hardware. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 3:17 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 16 January 2018 at 09:19, Martin Meiner via cctech > wrote: > > > > It has always been my aim to be able toconnect a modem or an acoustic > coupler directly to one of my ASCII terminals,dial a number and be > connected?with Google! > > > > Something like Google-interface but convertedto match ASCII terminals > (only text, very simple graphics). > > Your question is nonsensical. An internet connection is an Internet > connection. What you run over it is up to you. > > Whereas I doubt a '70s mini will have a text-mode browser such as > Lynx, Links or W3M, many will have TCP/IP. Just telnet to a Linux box > and run one of those, or something akin. > > From your question, I suspect you don't understand how TCP/IP and the > WWW work. You need to learn that first before you can do this. It's > not very hard or super-complex. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 08:46:23 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 09:46:23 -0500 Subject: What's this machine? Message-ID: Bouncing from the vintage microcontrollers Facebook page: https://m.facebook.com/groups/1233645553343772?view=permalink&id=1867447333296921 Can anyone help identify this machine?: https://twitter.com/StarringTheComp/status/955244079163564032 =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com From npmungai at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 08:05:31 2018 From: npmungai at gmail.com (Pmungai Njau) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 17:05:31 +0300 Subject: 3420 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey. Am looking for the above tape to read and covert some old tapes from ebcidic to ASCII format. How can I get the tapes in Kenya. Regards Paul Njau From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 22 10:35:12 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:35:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apollo Software Message-ID: <20180122163512.A109A18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > I[t] just dawned on me that the subject is Apollo the company bought by > HP, not Apollo the spacecraft. Oh well... Actually, that stuff has all been saved, and run under simulators; there's a very comprehensive site here: http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/index.html which will keep anyone entertained for hours. (I have this bit set that at one point there was a 'project history' page, but I don't see it, looking quickly now.) Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 22 10:49:19 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:49:19 -0600 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: <65204cb3-7822-bcbc-a970-33e013d31c4b@gmail.com> References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> <005301d39303$c6d5c640$548152c0$@ntlworld.com> <65204cb3-7822-bcbc-a970-33e013d31c4b@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5A66160F.3050307@pico-systems.com> On 01/22/2018 07:43 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > On 01/21/2018 04:04 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> You might find that the filter capacitor goes up in smoke >> soon after you >> connect the PSU to the mains, even without powering it on. > > Yes, Adrian Graham mentioned that (via FB), too. I seem to > have extremely good luck with the RF filter caps, unlike > other people, but I'm always prepared for the cloud of > smoke :-) > >> Otherwise it is certainly wise to check the PSU visually >> for any obviously >> failed electrolytics. If you have one of the DEC load >> boards you could >> connect the PSU to that as a dummy load. I don't think >> there is much in the >> way of dependency on the CPU to run the PSU. > > At this stage I've got no idea if it's a SMPSU or a linear > (I've not popped the panel off)... I suppose if it's > linear then it perhaps doesn't even need a load to do its > thing. If it's a switcher then I expect it'll at least > need something on +5V, and maybe +12V too (unless it has > built-in load resistors to keep the regulation happy, as > designs occasionally do). > All VAX and uVAX main power supplies are switching types. If you see an electrolytic cap in there with a 200+ V rating, that's a certain giveaway of a switching supply. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 22 10:57:29 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 08:57:29 -0800 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: <72026a12-ed87-f77a-9d33-070c22012980@charter.net> References: <20f186f1-2d46-6057-5dcc-1ed5f4e471b1@gmail.com> <72026a12-ed87-f77a-9d33-070c22012980@charter.net> Message-ID: sure thing. we got boxed of tapes and about 100 esdi disks from the support development cluster I haven't had time to do anything with also, i have lots of the last couple of revs of manuals up on bitsavers and there is a functional Apollo emulator running in MAME On 1/21/18 7:16 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > I wasn't aware of that. I have a ton of Apollo QIC images. Shall I put > them up on my Google Drive for you to grab? > > On 1/21/2018 1:50 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> CHM has an agreement with HP to host Apollo and 68K HP 9000 software legally. >> >> >> On 1/21/18 11:42 AM, David Collins via cctalk wrote: >>> The HP Computer Museum would be happy to host copies of any Apollo software if it can be imaged.. >> >> From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 22 11:01:16 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 09:01:16 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9ea95264-5fbd-5166-5168-38735569e86c@bitsavers.org> On 1/21/18 8:53 PM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > Several people asked my location.. Phoenix, AZ. Freighting stuff is > neither hard nor expensive if it comes to that but I'm just trying to > gauge value at the moment. > I have a 3/x80 full server rack with 1/2 tape, no disks, and dozens of 9u boards from 3/160 up through 4/3x0 I'd like to sell in Fremont, CA if someone wants to make a reasonable offer and can pick them up from there. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Jan 22 11:57:54 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 09:57:54 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 2018-Jan-22, at 1:24 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > My interest would be from having the first Sun systems in the Portland > Oregon area. It consisted of a 3/260 w a Fujitsu Eagle, and a 90 ips 9 > track that I cant remember the make. > Tied to it where 3 3/50s. Initially diskless then I added a 40 MB drive to > each of them. > > Networked into the companies network, tapped into on of the yellow coaxes > up in the ceiling. > > I all was for running Interleaf. Oh yea printing was via a Imagin (sp?) > print engine. The early 'compact' laser printer ca. 1984 (table-top sized as opposed to the 20sqft of floor space of the 1st gen of laser printers)? My recollection is it was "Imagen". I took it as incorporating "image", and "generate" or "engine" (my perception). We had one in the CS department. Nice for the time, but required regular cleaning/maintenance, dept. tech guy would roll his eyes - " . . again?" Wasn't the internal controller the early Sun processor board (basically a 68000 single-board computer that preceded or was used in the Sun 1), or am I conflating things? (We had a Sun 1 quite early as well). From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Jan 22 11:57:54 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 09:57:54 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <8AC608AA-C068-47EC-B528-0DA61F602E52@shaw.ca> On 2018-Jan-22, at 1:24 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > My interest would be from having the first Sun systems in the Portland > Oregon area. It consisted of a 3/260 w a Fujitsu Eagle, and a 90 ips 9 > track that I cant remember the make. > Tied to it where 3 3/50s. Initially diskless then I added a 40 MB drive to > each of them. > > Networked into the companies network, tapped into on of the yellow coaxes > up in the ceiling. > > I all was for running Interleaf. Oh yea printing was via a Imagin (sp?) > print engine. The early 'compact' laser printer ca. 1984 (table-top sized as opposed to the 20sqft of floor space of the 1st gen of laser printers)? My recollection is it was "Imagen". I took it as incorporating "image", and "generate" or "engine" (my perception). We had one in the CS department. Nice for the time, but required regular cleaning/maintenance, dept. tech guy would roll his eyes - " . . again?" Wasn't the internal controller the early Sun processor board (basically a 68000 single-board computer that preceded or was used in the Sun 1), or am I conflating things? (We had a Sun 1 quite early as well). From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 22 12:00:41 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:00:41 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4696bca9-57ed-0f87-82e6-5024c14464b4@bitsavers.org> On 1/22/18 9:57 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > Wasn't the internal controller the early Sun processor board (basically a 68000 single-board computer that preceded or was used in the Sun 1), or am I conflating things? (We had a Sun 1 quite early as well). > Imagen founded by people from Stanford. The original printer used a Stanford SUN board. Note, SUN (Stanford University Network) and not "Sun" From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Jan 22 12:08:41 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:08:41 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: <4696bca9-57ed-0f87-82e6-5024c14464b4@bitsavers.org> References: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> <4696bca9-57ed-0f87-82e6-5024c14464b4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Imagen .. yes. The printer we had was a Cannon engine, the same one HP used. All our work was for 8-1/2"x11" and its 300DPI was good enough for our use. LBP8 ? BTW I had at home a LBP1 ? that came from the R&D Labs. Quite the beast it used a toner that was suspended in a liquid. Can one say VENTILATION required :-) I had it in the garage. -pete On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 10:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 1/22/18 9:57 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > > Wasn't the internal controller the early Sun processor board (basically > a 68000 single-board computer that preceded or was used in the Sun 1), or > am I conflating things? (We had a Sun 1 quite early as well). > > > > Imagen founded by people from Stanford. The original printer used a > Stanford SUN board. > Note, SUN (Stanford University Network) and not "Sun" > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 22 12:24:38 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:24:38 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> <4696bca9-57ed-0f87-82e6-5024c14464b4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 1/22/18 10:08 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > BTW I had at home a LBP1 ? that came from the R&D Labs. Quite the beast it used a toner that was suspended in a liquid. Not that anyone seems to collect printers, but the LBP1 and the Canon engine were some of the first 'inexpensive mass-produced' laser printers. I don't know of any that still survive. Before that, if you were lucky enough to be at Stanford, MIT, or CMU, you could use the Dover and Altos that were part of Xerox's University Grant Program. Copies of well-known papers from the early 80s are very distinctive because they were printed on them. Eventually, the Dover was networked to other computers. Stanford had a rather big 3mbit research Ethernet made with SUN board gateways. Not that any of this has much to do with Sun-3, other that it was possible to plug a SUN 3mbit ethernet board into one with a Multibus adapter. I had packets coming out of a Sun-3 a VERY long time ago and still have a bunch of the 3mbit Multibus boards. From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Jan 22 12:47:30 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:47:30 +0000 Subject: question on hp9000/310 Message-ID: <44bb0fc0af8f455ab7532c6d471c848c@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Hello friends, I am totally ignorant about hp9000 machines. I am considering acquiring this machine for fun and learning about the 9000. It has a 9153A and 9134D with other accessories. The system currently boots up to BASIC 4.0 I have read that this machine can also support HP/UX. Can anyone advise if HP/UX can be installed on such a machine? Perhaps using internal drive for HP/UX and the external hard drive to boot to BASIC? Both hard drives have BASIC 4.0 installed. What would be involved to install HP/UX? Thanks very much Eugene From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jan 22 12:50:30 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:50:30 -0700 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> <4696bca9-57ed-0f87-82e6-5024c14464b4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 01/22/2018 11:24 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Before that, if you were lucky enough to be at Stanford, MIT, or CMU, > you could use the Dover and Altos that were part of Xerox's University > Grant Program. Copies of well-known papers from the early 80s are very > distinctive because they were printed on them. What made the Dover and Altos special in this context? > Eventually, the Dover was networked to other computers. Stanford had a > rather big 3mbit research Ethernet made with SUN board gateways. Intriguing. This is the 2nd time I've heard about 3 Mbps Ethernet. The first was in the series of videos that Curious Mark has shared on YouTube about the restoration of multiple Altos. > Not that any of this has much to do with Sun-3, other that it was possible > to plug a SUN 3mbit ethernet board into one with a Multibus adapter. I > had packets coming out of a Sun-3 a VERY long time ago and still have > a bunch of the 3mbit Multibus boards. I wonder if Curious Mark and co would be interested in possibly acquiring one of the 3 Mbps boards. (Of course that would necessitate a Sun to put it in.) - I think they hacked something together, so the need may not be that great. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 22 13:01:24 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:01:24 -0500 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> <4696bca9-57ed-0f87-82e6-5024c14464b4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2018-01-22 1:24 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/22/18 10:08 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > >> BTW I had at home a LBP1 ? that came from the R&D Labs. Quite the beast it used a toner that was suspended in a liquid. > > Not that anyone seems to collect printers, but the LBP1 and the Canon engine were some of the > first 'inexpensive mass-produced' laser printers. > > I don't know of any that still survive. I still own an original Canon engine Apple Laserwriter or two. (Or at worst, LW Plus.. don't remember exactly). --Toby > > Before that, if you were lucky enough to be at Stanford, MIT, or CMU, you could use the Dover > and Altos that were part of Xerox's University Grant Program. ... > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 22 13:11:30 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:11:30 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> <4696bca9-57ed-0f87-82e6-5024c14464b4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 1/22/18 11:01 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > I still own an original Canon engine Apple Laserwriter or two. CX engine printers (Laserjet, Laserwriter) are still out there printing. The liquid toner beasts are the ones that have probably gone extinct From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 22 13:12:58 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:12:58 -0800 Subject: ISO 9816 small keyboard Message-ID: I acquired a copy of CP/M-68K and am trying to pull together the parts for a 9816 to run it. I have Nimitz keyboards, but would like to find its little brother that matches the size of the 9816 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 22 13:14:15 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:14:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: CX laser printers (Was: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> <4696bca9-57ed-0f87-82e6-5024c14464b4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jan 2018, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > Imagen .. yes. The printer we had was a Cannon engine, the same one HP > used. All our work was for 8-1/2"x11" and its 300DPI > was good enough for our use. > LBP8 ? The Canon CX mechanism was used by many companies. Some, such as Apple Laserwriter (Postscript) and HP Laserjet (PCL) used an added controller in the case. For a brief while, the LaserWriter was the fastest, most powerful computer in Apple's limeup. If you are crazy enough, You can communicate directly with it and program in Postscript (similar to Forth) Others, such as Cordata/"Corona Data Systems" (software refuses to run on 286 and above), Jetscript, J-laser, Eiconscript (Laserjet and Postscript emulation), Imagen?, ... used a brain-dead engine, with controller in the host and connected with a DC-37. http://www.printerworks.com/Catalogs/CX-Catalog/CX-VDO.html The Printerworks CX (and for some others, their SX) catalog, if you can find a dead-tree copy, is an essential reference. http://www.printerworks.com/Catalogs/CX-Catalog/CX-AssblyContents.html Printerworks claims that their improved drum and improved toner solves the inadequate black-fill problem that caused many to switch to SX based printers. If you run into a PURPLE CX printer, that's the Fedex "Zap Mail", which is modified for 415spi, instead of 300 http://www.printerworks.com/Catalogs/CX-Catalog/CX-Fed-Ex.html BTW, for yellowed plastic, Printerworks suggests Sherman Williams poly-urethane paint, color S63EXH4300 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 13:18:50 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:18:50 -0800 Subject: ISO: TIPL757A transistor or equivalent Message-ID: Hi all -- I'm in the middle of repairing a console for a Symbolics 3640. This uses the earlier Phillips-based monitor and it employs a TIPL757A transistor in the deflection circuit. The one in mine is toast and I haven't been able to find a suitable replacement. The datasheet (or at least a page of it) is here: http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/108034/TI/TIPL757.html The base current rating seems to be important in this application; I tried replacing it with a BUX48 (which meets the other specs but only has a 4A continuous base current rating) and it blew in a few minutes. I haven't found a source of 757As, and I haven't found another TO-3 transistor that matches its specifications. If anyone's sitting on a pile of these, knows a good source for them, or knows of a transistor to substitute, please let me know. Thanks! Josh From phb.hfx at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 13:25:01 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:25:01 -0400 Subject: ISO 9816 small keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Al, I have one of the small keyboards, I would trade it for a Nimitz. Paul. On 2018-01-22 3:12 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I acquired a copy of CP/M-68K and am trying to pull together the > parts for a 9816 to run it. I have Nimitz keyboards, but would like > to find its little brother that matches the size of the 9816 > > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 13:35:19 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:35:19 -0400 Subject: question on hp9000/310 In-Reply-To: <44bb0fc0af8f455ab7532c6d471c848c@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <44bb0fc0af8f455ab7532c6d471c848c@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: Eugene, The 310 has no space for an internal disk unit.? It is possible to install HP-UX but it might depend on the amount of memory in the system.? There is diskette images for a version of HP-UX that runs on a 310 at hpmuseum.net, http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=581 If you need more memory I have a few 128K and 1MB cards as well as one 4MB card that are extras.??? I also have a 332 system board that was designed as an upgrade to the 310.? It replaces the 310 system board and has a 16MHz 68030 processor , 2MB of memory expandable to 8MB and a 68882 math coprocessor. Paul. On 2018-01-22 2:47 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Hello friends, > > I am totally ignorant about hp9000 machines. I am considering acquiring this machine for fun and learning about the 9000. It has a 9153A and 9134D with other accessories. The system currently boots up to BASIC 4.0 > > I have read that this machine can also support HP/UX. Can anyone advise if HP/UX can be installed on such a machine? Perhaps using internal drive for HP/UX and the external hard drive to boot to BASIC? Both hard drives have BASIC 4.0 installed. > > What would be involved to install HP/UX? > Thanks very much > Eugene > > > From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 13:50:51 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:50:51 -0500 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: <65204cb3-7822-bcbc-a970-33e013d31c4b@gmail.com> References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> <005301d39303$c6d5c640$548152c0$@ntlworld.com> <65204cb3-7822-bcbc-a970-33e013d31c4b@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/22/18 8:43 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > On 01/21/2018 04:04 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> You might find that the filter capacitor goes up in smoke soon after you >> connect the PSU to the mains, even without powering it on. > > Yes, Adrian Graham mentioned that (via FB), too. I seem to have > extremely good luck with the RF filter caps, unlike other people, but > I'm always prepared for the cloud of smoke :-) > I have several BA23 boxes both PDP11 and MicroVAX and never had this problem. I may be a Eu (230V ac) issue. >> Otherwise it is certainly wise to check the PSU visually for any >> obviously >> failed electrolytics. If? you have one of the DEC load boards you could >> connect the PSU to that as a dummy load. I don't think there is much >> in the >> way of dependency on the CPU to run the PSU. > > At this stage I've got no idea if it's a SMPSU or a linear (I've not > popped the panel off)... I suppose if it's linear then it perhaps > doesn't even need a load to do its thing. If it's a switcher then I > expect it'll at least need something on +5V, and maybe +12V too > (unless it has built-in load resistors to keep the regulation happy, > as designs occasionally do). > Its a SMPS.? It must be loaded to work right and there are no loading resistors. FYI there ca be an ISSUE with the SMPS to backplane cable.? The correct part has equal length wires.? The earlier version of the cable had unequal length wires and tended to overheat some of the pins and fail.? Be aware. > I see on the output rating label that it lists connection points for > different outputs, so maybe I just need to slap a couple of suitable > resistors onto the +5V and +12V outputs so that they draw an amp or > so, and see how it goes. > >> Once you have the machine up and running... > > Lets not get ahead of ourselves ;-) > >> I am not sure if 4MB is enough to do that though. > For MicroVMS its adequate but minimal.? Typical systems had 8 or 12MB though 16mb was possible. For VMS 5 the DEQNA is fine if working, also you need 8mb to run well.? With 12mb or more and a large disk (min RD54) VMS 6 or later is possible with DELQA (required after VMS5.4). It will also run NetBSD (Myneed 8MB) and also Ultrix. For disks.... RD53 is 31mb (maybe adequate for MicroVMS), RD53 is about 70MB, RD54 is 153mb. The RD 54 is the biggest drive for the RQDX disk controller.? IF a CMD scsi controller is in there then RZ scsi drives can be used and small started at about 300mb and up. > Hmm, one of the things that I'm clueless about right now is how the > bus evolved over the years - I've still got a pile of Q-bus boards > which I saved from a recycler last year, and I know there's a 4MB > board (made by Clearpoint, if I remember right) among them. But if > that's designed for earlier PDP hardware then it's possibly no use > whatsoever in a Vax world... > The correct board for MicroVAXII cpu has the over the top connector that lines up with the cpu and needs a IDC 50 pin connector for CPU and each board, max of 3. DO get the MicroVAX tech and user manual off bitsavers.? It will help greatly.?? FYI many PDP11 board can be used to the limit of the backplane space the exception is memory as it must be MicrovaxII? PMI (private memory bus interface). FYI there are three possible cpus.? MicroVAX-I not much use as it very limited, MicroVAXII KA630 was the stock cpu and the later KA650 coule be installed.? All three use memory unique to that CPU. Also learn the backplane as it has unique slots for CPU and memory and shuffling cards can cause problems. The panel on the back cover carries the console connector and the TOY (time of year) battery backup (NICd) that do fail and leak.? Replace. Also the default NI interface is AUI so an AUI too Either coax or Cat 3 or 5 wire is needed. Like I said get the book its a very interesting machine and if the disk has a valid and boot able OS there is a specific procedure for lost system password. Allison From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 22 14:13:06 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 12:13:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: question on hp9000/310 In-Reply-To: from Paul Berger via cctalk at "Jan 22, 18 03:35:19 pm" Message-ID: <201801222013.w0MKD6oA7995422@floodgap.com> > The 310 has no space for an internal disk unit. It is possible to > install HP-UX but it might depend on the amount of memory in the > system. There is diskette images for a version of HP-UX that runs on a > 310 at hpmuseum.net, http://hpmuseum.net/displayitem.php?sw=581 If you > need more memory I have a few 128K and 1MB cards as well as one 4MB card > that are extras. I also have a 332 system board that was designed as > an upgrade to the 310. It replaces the 310 system board and has a 16MHz > 68030 processor , 2MB of memory expandable to 8MB and a 68882 math > coprocessor. My 9000/350 runs HP/UX happily, but it has an external HP 6000 670H hard disk. The damn thing is a tank. Kicking it is more likely to damage your foot. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Focus is all about saying no. -- early Apple employee ---------------------- From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 14:36:02 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:36:02 -0600 Subject: MY COMPUTER LIKES ME when i speak in BASIC. In-Reply-To: References: <1611b1aa339-1723-568a9@webjas-vae216.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 5:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > "MY COMPUTER LIKES ME when I speak in BASIC" > > Don't anthropomorphize computers. > They hate it when you do that. Yes, you might anger them, and then they turn on you (or at least turn surly and uncooperative): https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1331069276l/1304684.jpg From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 22 16:19:31 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:19:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: MY COMPUTER LIKES ME when i speak in BASIC. In-Reply-To: References: <1611b1aa339-1723-568a9@webjas-vae216.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: >> "MY COMPUTER LIKES ME when I speak in BASIC" >> >> Don't anthropomorphize computers. >> They hate it when you do that. > > Yes, you might anger them, and then they turn on you (or at least turn > surly and uncooperative): > https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1331069276l/1304684.jpg No one else is bothered by the fact that the ST:TNG character Data HATES the fact that he HAS NO EMOTIONS? From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 16:58:10 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:58:10 -0800 Subject: Help identifying IC In-Reply-To: References: <2bbf07cc-d69d-2022-9e84-bc298dffd313@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, all! I'll start digging into clock ICs and see if anything looks like it matches what's in there. - Josh On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk > wrote: > > Hi all -- > > > > I picked up this little toy at VCF West last summer: > > > > https://1drv.ms/i/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMouYd0HV0ZThE3FnE_Q > > Cute! > > > As far as I can tell, it's supposed to be a clock > > Sure looks like one. > > > Can't find anything about this item at all. At the moment I'm curious > what > > the 28-pin IC at the top is > > There are a number of 28-pin clock ICs from the era... > > MK50250 > http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf/MK50250_Clock.pdf > > MM5313 / MM5315 > http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/nixies/mm5309-5311-5312-5313-5314-5315.pdf > > I'm sure there are more. > > -ethan > From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Jan 22 17:06:36 2018 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:06:36 -0800 Subject: CX laser printers (Was: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> <4696bca9-57ed-0f87-82e6-5024c14464b4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <357b4eb6-3e96-f98e-877c-96537d2cddc7@crash.com> On 01/22/2018 11:14, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > For a brief while, the LaserWriter was the fastest, most powerful > computer in Apple's limeup.? If you are crazy enough, You can > communicate directly with it and program in Postscript (similar to Forth) Heck, it was faster than the Macs, PCs, and the VAX-11/750 we had! At least for one storage-free job at a time. A few of my fellow students (hello D Fischer) who fiddled with Postscript would download jobs to compute and print fractals that would run overnight on the printer... and much of the following day, in some cases. --S. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 22 17:06:51 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:06:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sun3 valuations? Message-ID: <20180122230651.4DAE218C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So did we ever get an answer to the original question (the value of a Sun3)? All I saw was 'you'd have to pay to recycle them'. > From: Grant Taylor >> Before that, if you were lucky enough to be at Stanford, MIT, or CMU, >> you could use the Dover and Altos that were part of Xerox's University >> Grant Program. > What made the Dover and Altos special in this context? Sorry, I don't understand the question. (I assume you're not simply asking 'what made the Dover and Altos special'.) Which context? (As in 'what's the connection between the Sun3 query, and Dovers and Altos'? If so, I think it was just thread drift via the laser printers.) > This is the 2nd time I've heard about 3 Mbps Ethernet. That's the 'original' Ethernet; PARC did the 3Mbit one first, and the 10 Mbit one came along quite a few years later. I'm trying to remember what kind of cable it used; IIRC it was black coax, with a woven shield (i.e. not solid like CATV), not quite as large in diameter as the yellow 10Mbit stuff. To connect up to it, one clamped on a connector thingy, which had a threaded hole in it over the cable; one then screwed in a cylindrical cutter which made a hole through the shield, and one then screwed in a transceiver (which was a box about 2"x2"x4", IIRC). Hopefully someone has a picture somewhere? Noel From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jan 22 17:32:26 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 16:32:26 -0700 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: <20180122230651.4DAE218C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180122230651.4DAE218C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 01/22/2018 04:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So did we ever get an answer to the original question (the value of a > Sun3)? All I saw was 'you'd have to pay to recycle them'. I've not seen an answer to that question. I have seen multiple people raise their virtual hand in interest. But no discussions of $ other than disposal fees. > Sorry, I don't understand the question. (I assume you're not simply asking > 'what made the Dover and Altos special'.) Which context? What makes the copies of papers printed on them special? Was there something about the quality? Or is it simply that the documents were printed via machines that were intriguing unto themselves. > (As in 'what's the connection between the Sun3 query, and Dovers and > Altos'? If so, I think it was just thread drift via the laser printers.) ACK > That's the 'original' Ethernet; PARC did the 3Mbit one first, and the > 10 Mbit one came along quite a few years later. I assume this has something to do with the Digital / Intel / Xerox as in the DIX connector. > I'm trying to remember what kind of cable it used; IIRC it was black coax, > with a woven shield (i.e. not solid like CATV), not quite as large in > diameter as the yellow 10Mbit stuff. That sounds like typical Radio Grade cable. I just have no idea which RG it was. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "solid like CATV". Much of the coax that I've seen used for cable TV is RG-59, or RG-6. Both of which ideally have a woven braid w/ 80% or greater coverage. I have seen some that is effectively foil wrapped around the inner dielectric insulator. I like to see solid dielectric insulators, but I have suffered through some that were a helical coil around a center conductor that may or may not have some sort of thin coating. I have long found Radio Grade cable to be confusing (as in I've not figured out any pattern) as well as some of the executions to be extremely bad. Usually, but not always, the more expensive it is (within reason) the better quality it is. Save for the stuff that artificially jumps the price to catch people that shop solely based on price = quality. > To connect up to it, one clamped on a connector thingy, which had a > threaded hole in it over the cable; one then screwed in a cylindrical > cutter which made a hole through the shield, and one then screwed in a > transceiver (which was a box about 2"x2"x4", IIRC). That sounds like a description of what I've heard called a "Vampire Tap". - My understanding is that's the poor way to connect to (what is effectively) the Ethernet bus. I've been told that it's more proper to take an outage, cut the cable, terminate the ends properly, and connect both ends to a new AUI (DIX?) breakout box. > Hopefully someone has a picture somewhere? I suspect that Wikipedia's article on 10Base5 has some decent pictures: Link - 10Base5 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10BASE5 Google's image search for thicknet has a number of things too. I never have managed to get my hands on any Thicknet 10Base5 but I'd like to get just enough to connect two machines. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 22 17:36:10 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:36:10 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: <20180122230651.4DAE218C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180122230651.4DAE218C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/22/18 3:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I'm trying to remember what kind of cable it used; IIRC it was black coax, > with a woven shield (i.e. not solid like CATV), not quite as large in > diameter as the yellow 10Mbit stuff. To connect up to it, one clamped on a > connector thingy, which had a threaded hole in it over the cable; one then > screwed in a cylindrical cutter which made a hole through the shield, and one > then screwed in a transceiver (which was a box about 2"x2"x4", IIRC). > Hopefully someone has a picture somewhere? It's 75 ohm cable TV impedence (RG11?) I use RG-59 and BNCs for my Alto networks at CHM. You can pull the stingers off of the silver transceiver boxes easily and replace it with a BNC female socket. I've got a chunk of the orange plenum stuff with the vampire taps and terminators in storage. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 22 17:44:05 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:44:05 -0500 Subject: CX laser printers (Was: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: <357b4eb6-3e96-f98e-877c-96537d2cddc7@crash.com> References: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> <4696bca9-57ed-0f87-82e6-5024c14464b4@bitsavers.org> <357b4eb6-3e96-f98e-877c-96537d2cddc7@crash.com> Message-ID: <48d16a18-36c5-7695-c5ad-0f5f80a9102d@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-01-22 6:06 PM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: > On 01/22/2018 11:14, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >> For a brief while, the LaserWriter was the fastest, most powerful >> computer in Apple's limeup.? If you are crazy enough, You can >> communicate directly with it and program in Postscript (similar to Forth) > > Heck, it was faster than the Macs, PCs, and the VAX-11/750 we had! At > least for one storage-free job at a time. > > A few of my fellow students (hello D Fischer) who fiddled with > Postscript would download jobs to compute and print fractals that would > run overnight on the printer... and much of the following day, in some > cases. Assuming you didn't fill the heap. Garbage collection wasn't implemented during a job. :) --T > > --S. > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 22 18:08:14 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:08:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sun3 valuations? Message-ID: <20180123000814.D6B8118C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Grant Taylor > What makes the copies of papers printed on them special? Well, the Dover was the first device (that I know of) that could print _very_ high-quality graphical/multi-font output, and on ordinary paper. It was also pretty darned fast - a couple of seconds per sheet, IIRC. The whole package just blew us all away (I was a MIT when we got ours). There was a prior device (from quite a few years before) called a 'Xerox Graphics Printer', but i) IIRC it printed on thermal paper (think poor-quality thermal fax paper); ii) the resolution was nothing like as high as that of the Dover (which was, IIRC, in the 100's of DPIs - which it needed to produce the very-high quality printout with type-faces), and iii) it was quite slow. What they did with the Dover was take a high-end Xerox copier (one of the things the size of a couple of desks),and rip out the optical front end (which copied an image of the page being copied, onto the drum), and replaced it with a scanning laser that was fed an amplitude-controlling bit-stream from an interface card in the Alto. >> That's the 'original' Ethernet; PARC did the 3Mbit one first, and the >> 10 Mbit one came along quite a few years later. > I assume this has something to do with the Digital / Intel / Xerox as > in the DIX connector. Right, a couple of years later Xerox, DEC and Intel did a consortium to make Ethernet widely available, and produced the 10Mbit version. Technically, it was little different from the 3MBit version. The low-level packet format was different (because of the higher speed, and larger maximum size), and the addresses used the later PARC thinking (UID's for interfaces), but those were not major changes. >> I'm trying to remember what kind of cable it used > That sounds like typical Radio Grade cable. Yeah, I just found a piece, I'll put up a photo. > I'm not quite sure what you mean by "solid like CATV". The CATV that used a heavy foil ground layer. > That sounds like a description of what I've heard called a "Vampire > Tap". My understanding is that's the poor way to connect to (what is > effectively) the Ethernet bus. Vampire taps worked fine on 3MB Ethernet. As the speeds went up, less so. > I suspect that Wikipedia's article on 10Base5 has some decent pictures: Nothing of the 3MB, and it doesn't show how the clamp-on connector and vampire worked. Noel From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jan 22 18:30:57 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 16:30:57 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: <20180123000814.D6B8118C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180123000814.D6B8118C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55BC04E2-4633-4FB0-8946-2C1C74434127@shiresoft.com> > On Jan 22, 2018, at 4:08 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Grant Taylor > >> What makes the copies of papers printed on them special? > > Well, the Dover was the first device (that I know of) that could print _very_ > high-quality graphical/multi-font output, and on ordinary paper. It was also > pretty darned fast - a couple of seconds per sheet, IIRC. The whole package > just blew us all away (I was a MIT when we got ours). > > There was a prior device (from quite a few years before) called a 'Xerox > Graphics Printer', but i) IIRC it printed on thermal paper (think > poor-quality thermal fax paper); ii) the resolution was nothing like as high > as that of the Dover (which was, IIRC, in the 100's of DPIs - which it needed > to produce the very-high quality printout with type-faces), and iii) it was > quite slow. The XGP printed on roll paper. It was a laser type process and used a modified Xerox copy engine. It had a cutter to cut the roll paper to size (computer controlled natch). The cutter caused *no* end of troubles. AFAIR it wasn?t particularly slow given the output quality. Ours at CMU was driven by an 11/45. All of the CMU docs produced by the CS department were printed by the XGP (and typeset by Scribe). I still have various docs (including my copy of the Hydra Songbook) and they look quite good. TTFN - Guy From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 22 19:03:44 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:03:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sun3 valuations? Message-ID: <20180123010344.48BFF18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I just found a piece, I'll put up a photo. Here ya go: http://gunkies.org/wiki/File:3MegEthernetCable.jpg http://gunkies.org/wiki/File:10MegEthernetCable.jpg I should have put a ruler in, for scale. The 3M is about 2/3 of the thickness of the 10M. The center conductor is about 2mm - pretty heavy! > From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > The XGP printed on roll paper. It was a laser type process Plain paper? Well, my memory of it being thermal paper could easily be wrong; it's been a _long_ time, and I didn't use it much. Noel From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jan 22 19:14:14 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 17:14:14 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: <20180123010344.48BFF18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180123010344.48BFF18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 22, 2018, at 5:03 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > >> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > >> The XGP printed on roll paper. It was a laser type process > > Plain paper? Well, my memory of it being thermal paper could easily be wrong; > it's been a _long_ time, and I didn't use it much. > It?s been longer for me! ;-) But I *did* use it *a lot* when I was there. Missed using it until one of my co-workers at IBM started ?playing? with an IBM 4250 electro-erosion printer (I believe it was 600dpi H and 600dpi V). It used aluminized mylar (rolls again) ? hence the electro erosion. He wrote a bunch of SW for it and ran it off of his PC-AT (at the time) and could produce ?camera ready? results. You could also do limited print runs (100-500 copies) directly from resultant mylar. Very cool device?not really fast though. TTFN - Guy From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Jan 22 19:24:20 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 17:24:20 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: <20180122230651.4DAE218C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9e498201-d2b5-d801-9ee9-0b76fb5bd3e9@jwsss.com> On 1/22/2018 3:32 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 01/22/2018 04:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> So did we ever get an answer to the original question (the value of a >> Sun3)? All I saw was 'you'd have to pay to recycle them'. > > I've not seen an answer to that question.? I have seen multiple people > raise their virtual hand in interest.? But no discussions of $ other > than disposal fees. I did mention mine came free.? I also did sell my systems in the late 80s for some amount.? I think the answer will be relative to who is collecting them and their budget.? At least on this list that didn't seem to be many.. As I said I'd be glad to help you make yours have value if you want my system, or the tapes. Al said he was open to offers for his system, which, by the way sounds like the 4/xxx system I had. A historical note on my system, might have been true of Al's depending on history too, Hamilton pre merger had a group which bought some of these systems, which were in my case in a 6' cabinet similar to the Dec H960 in size, and used them as systems for doing pal and other utility work. At out local Hamilton office in Orange County, where mine came from, they would let people come in and get accounts and use them for whatever they needed, usually by convincing the two local guys that you had something that would result in Hamilton selling some product. As to value, I'd say with the tape, my system should be worth a couple hundred.? No disks, but should have SCSI controller.? The tapes being the thing adding value.? That is with it in the state of a project machine.? Add in the monitors and have it restored, I'd say 1000 to 1500 would be a reasonable asking price. Worth noting my 3/260 has a monochrome graphics port, so one would have a very large and power hungry Sunos 3 or Sunos 4 graphics station.? I think I have the Hitachi monitors that went with the system. Thanks Jim From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Jan 22 19:52:47 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 17:52:47 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: <9e498201-d2b5-d801-9ee9-0b76fb5bd3e9@jwsss.com> References: <20180122230651.4DAE218C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9e498201-d2b5-d801-9ee9-0b76fb5bd3e9@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Value . If it was in/near where I live a 3/50 with a good display would be .... oh $100. Finding a monochrome jug would be the biggest issue. -pete On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 5:24 PM, jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 1/22/2018 3:32 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> On 01/22/2018 04:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >>> So did we ever get an answer to the original question (the value of a >>> Sun3)? All I saw was 'you'd have to pay to recycle them'. >>> >> >> I've not seen an answer to that question. I have seen multiple people >> raise their virtual hand in interest. But no discussions of $ other than >> disposal fees. >> > I did mention mine came free. I also did sell my systems in the late 80s > for some amount. I think the answer will be relative to who is collecting > them and their budget. At least on this list that didn't seem to be many.. > > As I said I'd be glad to help you make yours have value if you want my > system, or the tapes. > > Al said he was open to offers for his system, which, by the way sounds > like the 4/xxx system I had. A historical note on my system, might have > been true of Al's depending on history too, Hamilton pre merger had a group > which bought some of these systems, which were in my case in a 6' cabinet > similar to the Dec H960 in size, and used them as systems for doing pal and > other utility work. > > At out local Hamilton office in Orange County, where mine came from, they > would let people come in and get accounts and use them for whatever they > needed, usually by convincing the two local guys that you had something > that would result in Hamilton selling some product. > > As to value, I'd say with the tape, my system should be worth a couple > hundred. No disks, but should have SCSI controller. The tapes being the > thing adding value. That is with it in the state of a project machine. > Add in the monitors and have it restored, I'd say 1000 to 1500 would be a > reasonable asking price. > > Worth noting my 3/260 has a monochrome graphics port, so one would have a > very large and power hungry Sunos 3 or Sunos 4 graphics station. I think I > have the Hitachi monitors that went with the system. > > Thanks > Jim > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jan 22 20:10:13 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:10:13 -0700 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: <20180123010344.48BFF18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180123010344.48BFF18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 01/22/2018 06:03 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Here ya go: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/File:3MegEthernetCable.jpg > http://gunkies.org/wiki/File:10MegEthernetCable.jpg > > I should have put a ruler in, for scale. The 3M is about 2/3 of the thickness > of the 10M. The center conductor is about 2mm - pretty heavy! Interesting. According to the following page, it was not RG-8 cable because of the variances there in. As such it was purpose built. Link - Building a 10BASE5 ?Thick Ethernet? network - http://tech.mattmillman.com/projects/10base5/ -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Jan 22 20:24:02 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:24:02 -0800 Subject: CX laser printers (Was: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> <4696bca9-57ed-0f87-82e6-5024c14464b4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <003601d393f1$3d5cce10$b8166a30$@net> > BTW, for yellowed plastic, Printerworks suggests > Sherman Williams poly-urethane paint, color S63EXH4300 Fred is this the off white color of HP printers? -Ali From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 22 20:35:26 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:35:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: CX laser printers (Was: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: <003601d393f1$3d5cce10$b8166a30$@net> References: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> <4696bca9-57ed-0f87-82e6-5024c14464b4@bitsavers.org> <003601d393f1$3d5cce10$b8166a30$@net> Message-ID: >> BTW, for yellowed plastic, Printerworks suggests >> Sherman Williams poly-urethane paint, color S63EXH4300 On Mon, 22 Jan 2018, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Fred is this the off white color of HP printers? At least close. It's what Printerworks says that they use to repaint the Fedex purple printers back to look like the other CX based printers. Check the details in the link on their site about how they convert the Fedex ones. http://www.printerworks.com/Catalogs/CX-Catalog/CX-Fed-Ex.html I assume that their goal is not necessarily to make them pass as HP, but to be close enough to look OK. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 22 21:07:23 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:07:23 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: <9e498201-d2b5-d801-9ee9-0b76fb5bd3e9@jwsss.com> References: <20180122230651.4DAE218C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9e498201-d2b5-d801-9ee9-0b76fb5bd3e9@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5a45a602-8adc-d538-7dd4-f5a287ffc6bd@bitsavers.org> On 1/22/18 5:24 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > Worth noting my 3/260 has a monochrome graphics port x/2x0 CPUs produce 1600 x 1280, ECL 200 MHz dot clock video. CRTs for them are pretty much impossible to find. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Jan 22 22:31:03 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:31:03 -0800 Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: <5a45a602-8adc-d538-7dd4-f5a287ffc6bd@bitsavers.org> References: <20180122230651.4DAE218C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9e498201-d2b5-d801-9ee9-0b76fb5bd3e9@jwsss.com> <5a45a602-8adc-d538-7dd4-f5a287ffc6bd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <06e21e07-8814-c58f-02e1-996fea904d10@jwsss.com> On 1/22/2018 7:07 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/22/18 5:24 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> Worth noting my 3/260 has a monochrome graphics port > x/2x0 CPUs produce 1600 x 1280, ECL 200 MHz dot clock video. > > CRTs for them are pretty much impossible to find. I have the originals, hopefully they can be made to work. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 22:53:22 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:53:22 -0700 Subject: MY COMPUTER LIKES ME when i speak in BASIC. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My computer likes me when I speak MACRO-10. :-) On Jan 17, 2018 7:28 AM, "Mattis Lind via cctalk" wrote: > I scanned a nice little booklet I found in my fathers stuff. > > "MY COMPUTER LIKES ME when i speak in BASIC" by Bob Albrecht. > > http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/my-computer-likes > > If someone feel like they can straighten it up, please do! I didn't feel > like ripping it apart to have it scanned so it was troublesome to scan it > perfectly in my page scanner. > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Mon Jan 22 13:18:29 2018 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:18:29 -0500 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> Message-ID: I can't believe you 'just carry it into the house' all by yourself, unless you are professional athlete. I also have a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box and it has wheels for a reason!? The damn thing weighs 130 lbs! I took it to the VCF East last year, never do that again.? Too heavy. When I got mine, it had only 3MB of memory and I found that I couldn't install VMS 5.5-2 or 7.3 with that amount of memory.? I put in an 8 MB board and 11 MB total was fine. You should make your own cable to connect the console to a PC or terminal.? Its that odd.? I found the PC connection to be helpful because you can log what you are doing. Yes, remove the NiCad battery. The box I got had 3 RD53 disks in it and none worked.? I am using a Viking SCSI controller and a SCSI2SD drive to boot the system. I left the RX50 drives in and reconfigured the RQDX2 to address them.? They come in handy for getting the VMS hobbyist licenses in. The TK50 never worked. I put a DELQA in for networking, never tried a DEQNA. I consider it an important machine in computing history.? It allowed scientific researchers, like myself, to get off of remote mainframes that billed at fantastic rates and compute in a more relaxed environment. BTW there is one in the Air & Space Museum in Washington DC. On 1/21/2018 2:25 PM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote: > > So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I > hurt) a Microvax II from another list member yesterday. Cosmetically > it's a disaster (BA123 has a cracked top panel, broken wheels, missing > front door, missing right-rear panel) but internally it appears to be > complete; board wise we have: > > ? M7606 - CPU > ? M7608 - 4MB ram > ? M9047 - grant continuity > ? M7504 - DEQNA ethernet > ? M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial > ? M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller > ? M7546 - TX50 controller > > ... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity). > > Operational status is a complete unknown, and I have absolutely zero > knowledge about these systems - so my question at this stage is what > background reading I need to be doing in terms of pre-powerup* checks, > actually hooking a console, if there's a suggested minimal config I > can use to diag the CPU, and then (assuming it gets to that point) how > to actually use the thing (I'm assuming it was running VMS rather than > Ultrix, but I don't know for sure). I'm wondering there aren't any > handy tutorials out there, alongside whatever DEC docs are recommended. > > * e.g. for most machines I'd be thinking in terms of pulling all > boards/drives, hooking up a dummy load to whatever PSU rails required > it, and then at least running the PSU up in isolation first, but I > don't know to what extent this machine requires some logic in place > for the PSU to even run. > > cheers > > Jules > > From RichA at livingcomputers.org Mon Jan 22 13:28:46 2018 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:28:46 +0000 Subject: 3420 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04e0da3fb0bb402595862ee67ced3779@livingcomputers.org> From: Pmungai Njau via cctalk Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 6:06 AM > Am looking for the above tape to read and covert some old tapes from > ebcidic to ASCII format. How can I get the tapes in Kenya. Hi, Paul, You do not need an IBM tape drive to convert from EBCDIC to ASCII; all tape drives are agnostic about the meanings of the 8-bit data frames on the media. Data conversion is a function of the operating system or utility used to read/write the data. Your best option is to read the tapes as raw 8-bit bytes with any working 9-track tape drive into a data file and then do the data conversion using a tool such as (GNU) dd. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 14:05:53 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:05:53 -0500 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> Message-ID: <72bcc969-6de7-4943-2603-790979c5ffd8@gmail.com> On 1/22/18 2:18 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > I can't believe you 'just carry it into the house' all by yourself, > unless you are professional athlete. > I also have a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box and it has wheels for > a reason!? The damn thing weighs 130 lbs! > I took it to the VCF East last year, never do that again.? Too heavy. > Huge difference between BA23 and ba123 as the BA123 is about twice the size and internal board space. I have both.? I can't lift a BA23 anymore, old back. > When I got mine, it had only 3MB of memory and I found that I couldn't > install VMS 5.5-2 or 7.3 with that amount of memory.? I put in an 8 MB > board and 11 MB total was fine. > Sounds about right. > You should make your own cable to connect the console to a PC or > terminal.? Its that odd.? I found the PC connection to be helpful > because you can log what you are doing. > > Yes, remove the NiCad battery. > Its easily replaced. > The box I got had 3 RD53 disks in it and none worked.? I am using a > Viking SCSI controller and a SCSI2SD drive to boot the system. RD53s had a problem with the head sticking against the stops.? I repair them, yes I open them unstick it then remove the offending the rubber parts. A Viking or CMD SCSI controller makes using larger and more modern disks easy.? A disk of 500 MB will run a lot of users and VMS will not use much of it. > I left the RX50 drives in and reconfigured the RQDX2 to address them. > They come in handy for getting the VMS hobbyist licenses in. > The TK50 never worked. > It can be very handy. > I put a DELQA in for networking, never tried a DEQNA. > If the DEQNA works use it Support is there through V5.4 and the driver? is there for later but unsupported (don't call FS!).?? Delqa tens to be more reliable. > I consider it an important machine in computing history.? It allowed > scientific researchers, like myself, to get off of remote mainframes > that billed at fantastic rates and compute in a more relaxed environment. > BTW there is one in the Air & Space Museum in Washington DC. > I have two MicroVAXIIs on in BA23, the other as a BA123 (uVAXII/GPX).? Also a few uVAX2000, and a slew of uVAX3100s.?? A 3100 can be handy as both a VAX and a boot host for the MicroVAXII. I run the whole bunch in the winter for a few days each year (12 systems) as a LAVC (local area connected) VAX Cluster.? Much fun and about 1400watts of heat. Allison > On 1/21/2018 2:25 PM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote: >> >> So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I >> hurt) a Microvax II from another list member yesterday. Cosmetically >> it's a disaster (BA123 has a cracked top panel, broken wheels, >> missing front door, missing right-rear panel) but internally it >> appears to be complete; board wise we have: >> >> ? M7606 - CPU >> ? M7608 - 4MB ram >> ? M9047 - grant continuity >> ? M7504 - DEQNA ethernet >> ? M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial >> ? M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller >> ? M7546 - TX50 controller >> >> ... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity). >> >> Operational status is a complete unknown, and I have absolutely zero >> knowledge about these systems - so my question at this stage is what >> background reading I need to be doing in terms of pre-powerup* >> checks, actually hooking a console, if there's a suggested minimal >> config I can use to diag the CPU, and then (assuming it gets to that >> point) how to actually use the thing (I'm assuming it was running VMS >> rather than Ultrix, but I don't know for sure). I'm wondering there >> aren't any handy tutorials out there, alongside whatever DEC docs are >> recommended. >> >> * e.g. for most machines I'd be thinking in terms of pulling all >> boards/drives, hooking up a dummy load to whatever PSU rails required >> it, and then at least running the PSU up in isolation first, but I >> don't know to what extent this machine requires some logic in place >> for the PSU to even run. >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> >> > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jan 23 03:14:16 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:14:16 +0100 (CET) Subject: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> <4696bca9-57ed-0f87-82e6-5024c14464b4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jan 2018, Al Kossow wrote: > Not that anyone seems to collect printers, but the LBP1 and the Canon > engine were some of the first 'inexpensive mass-produced' laser > printers. I still have the Kyocera F-1010 that my father bought 30 years ago. It still works well, but the foam strips found in the drum unit and toner cartridge are troublesome. They disintegrate, with the result that toner is spread inside the printer... Christian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 06:58:19 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 06:58:19 -0600 Subject: Televideo 970 Message-ID: <05c66762-ac67-45f1-52b1-1ebd0ed1df9e@gmail.com> Hi All, I got a lovely Televideo 970 terminal from another list-member over the weekend. Aside from some PSU capacitor issues, it needs a little TLC: 1) The EMI filter had gone open-circuit - it's one of those metal can types which is integrated with the IEC power input connector. Are these still obtainable anywhere? It seems like equipment these days just has the filtering directly on the PSU board, rather than as a separate module. I've just bypassed it for testing, but I don't want to leave it like that. 2) I have a faulty back-tab, left shift and return key (return's simply unresponsive, while the other two stick down). Do the keycaps on these terminals simply pull off, or is there some trick to removal? I did some experimental prying, but didn't want to try too hard and risk snapping the switch stem. I don't know if switches are still available, but worst-case I can swap the faulty ones with ones for some of the 'special' keys that I'm extremely unlikely to ever use. cheers Jules From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Jan 23 08:30:24 2018 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 08:30:24 -0600 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: <20180122163512.A109A18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180122163512.A109A18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1E0DD21D-C0AE-425A-8384-8DE499C1EB49@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Jan 22, 2018, at 10:35 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> I[t] just dawned on me that the subject is Apollo the company bought by >> HP, not Apollo the spacecraft. Oh well... > > Actually, that stuff has all been saved, and run under simulators Not all, not by a long shot. Not even half. The Apollo spacecraft had 4 computers aboard. One was in the Command Module, two were in the Lunar Module, and one was in the Saturn. Of those, we only have software for the CM and LM computers. The Saturn software, which is what actually flew from Earth to the moon, was lost. So you can claim we have ?75%? at best, but that?s still not even close to true. There was a large complex of computers on the ground that calculated maneuvers and generated uplink data needed for the operation of the CM and LM computers, as well as the computers for the controllers, and none of that software survived. A lot of effort has gone into filling in those missing pieces, and it?s by no means complete. From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 09:09:16 2018 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 07:09:16 -0800 Subject: VCF PNW 2018 - less than three weeks away! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1516720156.23460.63.camel@moondog> On Sun, 2018-01-21 at 17:33 -0800, Michael Brutman via cctalk wrote: > Come join us in Seattle on February 10th and 11th for the first VCF PNW. > We have 20 exhibits, six speakers, and a panel discussion planned. There > will be a consignment area for buying and selling vintage gear.... I'm clearing out a lot of miscellaneous computers and parts. DEC Alpha Multia, Alpha Personal Workstation, Alpha XL300... a variety of SCSI hard disks (including some DEC RZ??, 450 MB or so) and SCSI CD-ROM drives... DAT tapes and drives... a few Sun parts... peecee stuff, including some ISA bus cards (now THAT'S vintage :-)), lots of cables... you get the picture. I don't have the time to go to VCF and try to sell any of this on consignment, but if anyone is interested in collecting this stuff and trying to sell it (or use it), I'm in the Seattle area (Bothell, specifically) and would be glad to give it to you. I'm really hoping not to simply scrap it all. Contact me off-list if you're interested. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jan 23 09:14:57 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 07:14:57 -0800 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: <1E0DD21D-C0AE-425A-8384-8DE499C1EB49@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <20180122163512.A109A18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1E0DD21D-C0AE-425A-8384-8DE499C1EB49@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <8cf5a124-df39-edd2-5781-5ce6235df77a@jwsss.com> On 1/23/2018 6:30 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > The Saturn software, which is what actually flew from Earth to the moon, The navigation and guidance was in the CM and LM processors.? The Saturn IBM firmware is lost, but was under command of the LM and CM computers, and is running on simulators, as well as on some hardware replicas. Spare AGCs were used with F8 aircraft for later uses beyond the lunar program. After I reread the thread, I think they were talking about saving the Apollo computer software, not the spacecraft. AGC software here, FWIW. https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/ I would be interested in what it takes to configure mame to run the other Apollo software, which Al mentioned. thanks jim From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 23 09:24:31 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:24:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apollo Software Message-ID: <20180123152431.46E2718C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Daniel Seagraves > The Saturn software, which is what actually flew from Earth to the > moon, was lost. You mean the Instrumentation Unit on top of the S-IVB stage? That was discarded when the S-IVB and CSM separated shortly after leaving Earth orbit (about 6 hours after launch), so I'm not sure it's accurate to say it's "what actually flew from Earth to the moon". Yes, it put the CSM on the injection orbit, but... A very cool computer (the first one to have all its critical components triplicated for reliabilty, I gather), and yes, it would be nice to have its software too. Noel From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Jan 23 09:24:44 2018 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 09:24:44 -0600 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: <8cf5a124-df39-edd2-5781-5ce6235df77a@jwsss.com> References: <20180122163512.A109A18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1E0DD21D-C0AE-425A-8384-8DE499C1EB49@lunar-tokyo.net> <8cf5a124-df39-edd2-5781-5ce6235df77a@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <47745F85-9349-41D5-BB55-12AA1888C269@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Jan 23, 2018, at 9:14 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 1/23/2018 6:30 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: >> The Saturn software, which is what actually flew from Earth to the moon, > The navigation and guidance was in the CM and LM processors. The Saturn IBM firmware is lost, but was under command of the LM and CM computers, and is running on simulators, as well as on some hardware replicas. Absolutely wrong. The only time the CM computer flew the Saturn was in an abort scenario where the Saturn digital computer failed, and it happened via a data path from the FDAI needles to the Saturn?s analog control computer. At all other points prior to S4 staging the CM was strictly along for the ride. After S4 staging the CM and LM were on their own, but that was after the translunar burn. > After I reread the thread, I think they were talking about saving the Apollo computer software, not the spacecraft. They were. > AGC software here, FWIW. > https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/ I know. I am one of the NASSP maintainers. We took the yaAGC core and built a spacecraft around it so we could actually use it instead of just running it to look at the pretty flashing numbers in the idle loop. The project has been in work for more than 10 years now. Right now we have the most complete Apollo simulation ever built, exceeding the capabilities of even the NASA training simulators. See http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/Main_Page From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jan 23 09:33:54 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 07:33:54 -0800 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: <47745F85-9349-41D5-BB55-12AA1888C269@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <20180122163512.A109A18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1E0DD21D-C0AE-425A-8384-8DE499C1EB49@lunar-tokyo.net> <8cf5a124-df39-edd2-5781-5ce6235df77a@jwsss.com> <47745F85-9349-41D5-BB55-12AA1888C269@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <4501fdf1-7f51-fc4f-129d-0777e6729ff0@jwsss.com> On 1/23/2018 7:24 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jan 23, 2018, at 9:14 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> >> On 1/23/2018 6:30 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: >>> The Saturn software, which is what actually flew from Earth to the moon, >> The navigation and guidance was in the CM and LM processors. The Saturn IBM firmware is lost, but was under command of the LM and CM computers, and is running on simulators, as well as on some hardware replicas. > Absolutely wrong. The only time the CM computer flew the Saturn was in an abort scenario where the Saturn digital computer failed, and it happened via a data path from the FDAI needles to the Saturn?s analog control computer. At all other points prior to S4 staging the CM was strictly along for the ride. After S4 staging the CM and LM were on their own, but that was after the translunar burn. As pointed out, the function of the Saturn computers was to do the lunar injection.? The main guidance problem of the mission was the coast and the landing, which were done by the CM and LM. They did what the ground uploaded to them for guidance, as full independent guidance was decided to be too intensive and unnecessary to have in the onboard computers.? The real work was done in the back rooms @ Mission control, with certain features implemented on the systems onboard the rocket. You couldn't carry out a mission w/o the ground supporting either system with computations to the onboard systems.? You didn't punch in the address of the moon on any system onboard the rocket, you got pre-computed parameters from ground? computations that the flight computers carried out. The AGC systems could vary that more than the Saturn stack could, as you point out the capability was added at astronaut insistence to control the Saturn part of the rocket, but was never used. I'm not getting your "absolutely wrong" part. >> After I reread the thread, I think they were talking about saving the Apollo computer software, not the spacecraft. > They were. > >> AGC software here, FWIW. >> https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/ > I know. I am one of the NASSP maintainers. We took the yaAGC core and built a spacecraft around it so we could actually use it instead of just running it to look at the pretty flashing numbers in the idle loop. The project has been in work for more than 10 years now. Right now we have the most complete Apollo simulation ever built, exceeding the capabilities of even the NASA training simulators. See http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/Main_Page > > > > From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Jan 23 09:44:24 2018 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 09:44:24 -0600 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: <4501fdf1-7f51-fc4f-129d-0777e6729ff0@jwsss.com> References: <20180122163512.A109A18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1E0DD21D-C0AE-425A-8384-8DE499C1EB49@lunar-tokyo.net> <8cf5a124-df39-edd2-5781-5ce6235df77a@jwsss.com> <47745F85-9349-41D5-BB55-12AA1888C269@lunar-tokyo.net> <4501fdf1-7f51-fc4f-129d-0777e6729ff0@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C96FD9F-48F2-4A9C-9AE1-BD04B6D87991@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Jan 23, 2018, at 9:33 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > The real work was done in the back rooms @ Mission control, with certain features implemented on the systems onboard the rocket. > > You couldn't carry out a mission w/o the ground supporting either system with computations to the onboard systems. You didn't punch in the address of the moon on any system onboard the rocket, you got pre-computed parameters from ground computations that the flight computers carried out. That?s exactly what I was trying to point out. What we have is a relatively small piece of the entire puzzle. People seem to think that just because a few versions of CM and LM software exist all is saved and done, but it?s really only the user interface to a much larger stack. You can't just fire up the AGC and push the ?land on the moon? button. You can run it by itself and look at the idle loop or display the clock but getting it to actually DO anything close to its original tasks requires input from a lot of missing pieces. We aren?t trying to just run it in a box, that?s been done. We?re making it FLY. > I'm not getting your "absolutely wrong" part. He said "The Saturn IBM firmware is lost, but was under command of the LM and CM computers?. This is absolutely wrong. It was the other way around. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 23 09:51:17 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:51:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) Message-ID: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Grant Taylor > According to the following page, it was not RG-8 cable ... As such it > was purpose built. The 10MBit cable, yes; it was custom (you can see 'Ethernet' printed on the chunk in the picture). (I'd forgotten about the black stripes! I'm not sure we really bothered to follow that.) The earlier 3Mbit I'm not so sure about - that has the air of standard commercial coax. I wish there was a picture of a 3Mbit transceiver, clamp-on holder, etc! Does the CHM or LCM have them with their Alto stuff? Noel From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Tue Jan 23 09:54:39 2018 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:54:39 +0000 Subject: Televideo 970 In-Reply-To: <05c66762-ac67-45f1-52b1-1ebd0ed1df9e@gmail.com> References: <05c66762-ac67-45f1-52b1-1ebd0ed1df9e@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87a7x4o9j4.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> > 1) The EMI filter had gone open-circuit - it's one of those metal can types > which is integrated with the IEC power input connector. Are these still > obtainable anywhere? It seems like equipment these days just has the > filtering directly on the PSU board, rather than as a separate module. I've > just bypassed it for testing, but I don't want to leave it like that. You can still get these. The hard part is finding one which will fit properly unless you are willing to bodge it together a bit. Just search for "C14 EMI" on eBay and you'll find hundreds of them. Maybe you've seen them already and were just surprised by how small they have become :) You can also just remove it, and (safely) wire in a fixed power cord. Aaron. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 23 10:10:15 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 08:10:15 -0800 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <94082811-4afb-aced-a8cb-ed7d2bb1290a@bitsavers.org> there are pictures of the transceiver w/o the vampire tap on bitsavers under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/ethernet_3mb/ On 1/23/18 7:51 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Grant Taylor > > > According to the following page, it was not RG-8 cable ... As such it > > was purpose built. > > The 10MBit cable, yes; it was custom (you can see 'Ethernet' printed on the > chunk in the picture). (I'd forgotten about the black stripes! I'm not sure > we really bothered to follow that.) > > The earlier 3Mbit I'm not so sure about - that has the air of standard > commercial coax. > > I wish there was a picture of a 3Mbit transceiver, clamp-on holder, etc! Does > the CHM or LCM have them with their Alto stuff? > > Noel > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Jan 23 10:10:31 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:10:31 +0000 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: If you didn't locate the transceivers on those black marks you would have had terrible performance as that affects collisions. Timing (among other things like grounding) was very important with that version of ethernet hardware. bill ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 10:51 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) > From: Grant Taylor > According to the following page, it was not RG-8 cable ... As such it > was purpose built. The 10MBit cable, yes; it was custom (you can see 'Ethernet' printed on the chunk in the picture). (I'd forgotten about the black stripes! I'm not sure we really bothered to follow that.) The earlier 3Mbit I'm not so sure about - that has the air of standard commercial coax. I wish there was a picture of a 3Mbit transceiver, clamp-on holder, etc! Does the CHM or LCM have them with their Alto stuff? Noel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Jan 23 10:12:44 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:12:44 +0000 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: <94082811-4afb-aced-a8cb-ed7d2bb1290a@bitsavers.org> References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <94082811-4afb-aced-a8cb-ed7d2bb1290a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Vampire taps. Now there's a blast from the past. Somewhere around here I still have my toolbag which still has my tap drill for installing those taps. bill ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 11:10 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) there are pictures of the transceiver w/o the vampire tap on bitsavers under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/ethernet_3mb/ On 1/23/18 7:51 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Grant Taylor > > > According to the following page, it was not RG-8 cable ... As such it > > was purpose built. > > The 10MBit cable, yes; it was custom (you can see 'Ethernet' printed on the > chunk in the picture). (I'd forgotten about the black stripes! I'm not sure > we really bothered to follow that.) > > The earlier 3Mbit I'm not so sure about - that has the air of standard > commercial coax. > > I wish there was a picture of a 3Mbit transceiver, clamp-on holder, etc! Does > the CHM or LCM have them with their Alto stuff? > > Noel > From harper at secureoutcomes.net Tue Jan 23 10:33:09 2018 From: harper at secureoutcomes.net (Jack Harper) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 09:33:09 -0700 Subject: SCSI Controller Hanging... Message-ID: <20180123163319.DF1084E7F8@mx2.ezwind.net> Greetings to the List from the Snowy Rocky Mountains. Beautiful clear sunny day here at +9F :) The SCSI controller on the 68K development system (VMEbus) that I have cobbled together occasionally hangs after I reset one of the processor boards (there are four MVME177-005 68060 boards in the VME rack). The hang then happens when my software touches the SCSI drives via the ROM'd 68K/Bug I/O primitives and the hang will not go away even after another reset until I cycle power. I have never before dealt with SCSI as a programmer - does this sound like something is configured incorrectly? There is not much to configure. I point out that I am not certain that I have the termination resistors correct. Thoughts? I appreciate any advice. Regards, Jack Evergreen Colorado ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper, President Secure Outcomes Inc 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA 303.670.8375 303.670.3750 (fax) http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info. From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 10:47:55 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 11:47:55 -0500 Subject: SCSI Controller Hanging... In-Reply-To: <20180123163319.DF1084E7F8@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20180123163319.DF1084E7F8@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:33 AM, Jack Harper via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Greetings to the List from the Snowy Rocky Mountains. > > Beautiful clear sunny day here at +9F :) > > The SCSI controller on the 68K development system (VMEbus) that I have > cobbled together occasionally hangs after I reset one of the processor > boards (there are four MVME177-005 68060 boards in the VME rack). > > The hang then happens when my software touches the SCSI drives via the > ROM'd 68K/Bug I/O primitives and the hang will not go away even after > another reset until I cycle power. > > I have never before dealt with SCSI as a programmer - does this sound like > something is configured incorrectly? > > There is not much to configure. > > I point out that I am not certain that I have the termination resistors > correct. > > > Thoughts? > > I appreciate any advice. > > > Regards, > > Jack > Evergreen Colorado > > > Jack, Yes, two things that I'd be checking 1) Make sure all drives are assigned a different number 2) Make sure you have termination somewhere. Depending on the OS there are commands to display the scsi devices attached, as the OS sees them. Bill From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 23 10:48:14 2018 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:48:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ISO 9816 small keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2056893770.420982.1516726094104@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Al, What 9816 parts are required to run it?? Do you already have the 9816 and 9121 drive?? Also, is there a copy of CP/M-68K available somewhere for download? Dave On Monday, January 22, 2018, 1:13:08 PM CST, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: I acquired a copy of CP/M-68K and am trying to pull together the parts for a 9816 to run it. I have Nimitz keyboards, but would like to find its little brother that matches the size of the 9816 From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 23 10:48:17 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 09:48:17 -0700 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5342a5fb-12ee-ff3a-6d97-c4498515fae8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 01/23/2018 09:10 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > If you didn't locate the transceivers on those black marks you would > have had terrible performance as that affects collisions. Timing (among > other things like grounding) was very important with that version of > ethernet hardware. It's my understanding that the marks (black bands or other markings on the sheath) were exactly one wavelength apart. Which from what I remember ~> understand from my ham radio days is quite important. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From harper at secureoutcomes.net Tue Jan 23 11:06:54 2018 From: harper at secureoutcomes.net (Jack Harper) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:06:54 -0700 Subject: SCSI Controller Hanging... In-Reply-To: References: <20180123163319.DF1084E7F8@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20180123170706.B9582278CB@mx1.ezwind.net> Hello Bill - Yes, there are two 4GB (32-bit addressing) SCSI drives on the system and they do have different drive numbers. I will double check the SCSI termination resistor things. Motorola documentation is very sparse on this - "attach the termination resistor" - nothing on exactly where or what the resistor thing looks like. I am far stronger in software than hardware. I appreciate the adive. Regards, Jack Evergreen, Colorado At 09:47 AM 1/23/2018, william degnan wrote: >On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:33 AM, Jack Harper >via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >Greetings to the List from the Snowy Rocky Mountains. > >Beautiful clear sunny day here at +9F :) > >The SCSI controller on the 68K development >system (VMEbus) that I have cobbled together >occasionally hangs after I reset one of the >processor boards (there are four MVME177-005 68060 boards in the VME rack). > >The hang then happens when my software touches >the SCSI drives via the ROM'd 68K/Bug I/O >primitives and the hang will not go away even >after another reset until I cycle power. > >I have never before dealt with SCSI as a >programmer - does this sound like something is configured incorrectly? > >There is not much to configure. > >I point out that I am not certain that I have >the termination resistors correct. > > >Thoughts? > >I appreciate any advice. > > >Regards, > >Jack >Evergreen Colorado > > > >Jack, >Yes, two things that I'd be checking >1) Make sure all drives are assigned a different number >2) Make sure you have termination somewhere. > >Depending on the OS there are commands to >display the scsi devices attached, as the OS sees them. > >Bill? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper, President Secure Outcomes Inc 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA 303.670.8375 303.670.3750 (fax) http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 23 11:35:34 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 09:35:34 -0800 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" Message-ID: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> ?are the bane of my existence and should all rot in hell. Sorry, I just received an email from a ?keyboard enthusiast? who was looking for various IBM 327x keyboards and wanted to know if I could help him and I needed to vent a little. I sent him a polite ?no way in hell? response but I?m still angry about it. These terminals are hard enough to find. And more often than not, the keyboard is missing because some ?enthusiast? thought it would be cool to convert it to a PC keyboard. ARG! And of course the keyboards that they want are the ?typewriter? keyboards (all of my 3278 terminals have the ?data entry keyboard?). TTFN - Guy From harper at secureoutcomes.net Tue Jan 23 11:40:28 2018 From: harper at secureoutcomes.net (Jack Harper) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:40:28 -0700 Subject: SCSI In-Reply-To: <0df11d55-78cb-c971-f4c2-bca9365e5319@jwsss.com> References: <0df11d55-78cb-c971-f4c2-bca9365e5319@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20180123174038.09D694E9A7@mx2.ezwind.net> Jim - I appreciate the great SCSI information. The hang is not at all frequent. I do resets many times during a programming session as my "marvelous" code hangs or otherwise goes crazy and into thew weeds :) and I only see a SCSI hang every few days. Regards, Jack At 10:28 AM 1/23/2018, jim stephens wrote: >Scsi controllers are very sensitive to resets >and getting out of step with the state of the bus the initiators they control. > >Scsi can have multiple initiators, and you may >of course have a system which acts as a target, >but i'm guessing since you said drives, you have >a pretty common setup, a system with drives >attached, where the scsi device on your system is the initiator. > >One thing that throws off scsi is to do a reset >which comes from somewhere the initiator doesn't >know about.? many are not friendly when that >happens and just end up hung up.? Reset tells >all the devices to stand down, and it is >expected that an enumeration of the bus will >take place by all the initiator(s). > >That may have happened if you reset your other >processors or did something which affected the >initiator.? And the resets on most systems >usually hit all components, so I'd be surprised >if only the one processor was affected. > >thanks >Jim ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper, President Secure Outcomes Inc 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA 303.670.8375 303.670.3750 (fax) http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info. From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Jan 23 11:44:14 2018 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 11:44:14 -0600 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <610B0459-0E17-461A-8D68-68811CFDF644@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Jan 23, 2018, at 11:35 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > ?are the bane of my existence and should all rot in hell. > > Sorry, I just received an email from a ?keyboard enthusiast? who was looking for > various IBM 327x keyboards and wanted to know if I could help him and I needed > to vent a little. > > I sent him a polite ?no way in hell? response but I?m still angry about it. These > terminals are hard enough to find. And more often than not, the keyboard is > missing because some ?enthusiast? thought it would be cool to convert it to a PC > keyboard. ARG! And of course the keyboards that they want are the ?typewriter? > keyboards (all of my 3278 terminals have the ?data entry keyboard?). One of them scrapped a Symbolics XL for the keyswitches. That would be bad enough, but it gets worse - They did because they thought it was a CADR "Space Cadet? keyboard. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 23 12:15:02 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:15:02 -0800 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: <610B0459-0E17-461A-8D68-68811CFDF644@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> <610B0459-0E17-461A-8D68-68811CFDF644@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <8b32091c-d5df-5693-49c1-4860c20e706a@sydex.com> On 01/23/2018 09:44 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > One of them scrapped a Symbolics XL for the keyswitches. That would > be bad enough, but it gets worse - They did because they thought it > was a CADR "Space Cadet? keyboard. Really, is this any worse than the gold bugs scrapping whole systems for the prospective precious metal content? --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 12:15:03 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 12:15:03 -0600 Subject: SCSI Controller Hanging... In-Reply-To: <20180123163319.DF1084E7F8@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20180123163319.DF1084E7F8@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6afb3763-fa34-2f2a-6b11-c494924fefce@gmail.com> On 01/23/2018 10:33 AM, Jack Harper via cctalk wrote: > > Greetings to the List from the Snowy Rocky Mountains. > > Beautiful clear sunny day here at +9F :) It's a toasty 20F here in northern MN :) > I have never before dealt with SCSI as a programmer - does this sound like > something is configured incorrectly? > > There is not much to configure. I'm not sure about incorrect config, but I'm guessing it could be a software issue (rather than hardware) - i.e. board reset is also causing a reset of the SCSI bus in some odd way which is then offlining/confusing any attached devices. Does it just happen with a reset of one specific CPU board, or is it any of them? > I point out that I am not certain that I have the termination resistors > correct. Termination's easy enough - in theory :-) A single set of termination at each end of the bus, never in the middle - and double-termination at either end will cause weird things to happen. If it's a 16-bit SCSI bus then you need termination either end of both high/low 'halves' (sometimes people will park an 8-bit device via a cable adapter at the end of a 16-bit bus, and stick an 8-bit terminator on the device, which leaves the high side of the 16 bit bus unterminated and causes glitches) *Something* on the bus needs to provide +5V on the SCSI TERMPWR line; the terminators need this to work. I think typically the bus adapter (i.e. controller) will do this, but I seem to recall that the adapter in my Apple IIGS has no support for it and expects one of the attached devices to do it (some will via a jumper setting, but some won't) I think that some 16-bit devices will automagically work on an 8-bit SCSI bus, but I don't know if there's any guarantee of that. Other than that, if you've got external devices then try and use the best quality cables that you can find - there used to be some really cheap junk out there which could cause all sorts of oddball problems. cheers Jules From harper at secureoutcomes.net Tue Jan 23 12:22:46 2018 From: harper at secureoutcomes.net (Jack Harper) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 11:22:46 -0700 Subject: SCSI Controller Hanging... In-Reply-To: <6afb3763-fa34-2f2a-6b11-c494924fefce@gmail.com> References: <20180123163319.DF1084E7F8@mx2.ezwind.net> <6afb3763-fa34-2f2a-6b11-c494924fefce@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20180123182307.38935278CE@mx1.ezwind.net> Great information/advice Jules. I appreciate it - and know more about SCSI now than before. Regards, Jack At 11:15 AM 1/23/2018, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >On 01/23/2018 10:33 AM, Jack Harper via cctalk wrote: >> >>Greetings to the List from the Snowy Rocky Mountains. >> >>Beautiful clear sunny day here at +9F :) > >It's a toasty 20F here in northern MN :) > >>I have never before dealt with SCSI as a programmer - does this sound like >>something is configured incorrectly? >> >>There is not much to configure. > >I'm not sure about incorrect config, but I'm guessing it could be a >software issue (rather than hardware) - i.e. board reset is also >causing a reset of the SCSI bus in some odd way which is then >offlining/confusing any attached devices. Does it just happen with a >reset of one specific CPU board, or is it any of them? > >>I point out that I am not certain that I have the termination resistors >>correct. > >Termination's easy enough - in theory :-) A single set of >termination at each end of the bus, never in the middle - and >double-termination at either end will cause weird things to happen. > >If it's a 16-bit SCSI bus then you need termination either end of >both high/low 'halves' (sometimes people will park an 8-bit device >via a cable adapter at the end of a 16-bit bus, and stick an 8-bit >terminator on the device, which leaves the high side of the 16 bit >bus unterminated and causes glitches) > >*Something* on the bus needs to provide +5V on the SCSI TERMPWR >line; the terminators need this to work. I think typically the bus >adapter (i.e. controller) will do this, but I seem to recall that >the adapter in my Apple IIGS has no support for it and expects one >of the attached devices to do it (some will via a jumper setting, >but some won't) > >I think that some 16-bit devices will automagically work on an 8-bit >SCSI bus, but I don't know if there's any guarantee of that. > >Other than that, if you've got external devices then try and use the >best quality cables that you can find - there used to be some really >cheap junk out there which could cause all sorts of oddball problems. > >cheers > >Jules > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper, President Secure Outcomes Inc 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA 303.670.8375 303.670.3750 (fax) http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info. From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 12:37:43 2018 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:37:43 -0800 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: <8b32091c-d5df-5693-49c1-4860c20e706a@sydex.com> References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> <610B0459-0E17-461A-8D68-68811CFDF644@lunar-tokyo.net> <8b32091c-d5df-5693-49c1-4860c20e706a@sydex.com> Message-ID: I get these all the time with Lisp Machines. "Yo can I get a keyboard!" UGH. On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 01/23/2018 09:44 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > > > One of them scrapped a Symbolics XL for the keyswitches. That would > > be bad enough, but it gets worse - They did because they thought it > > was a CADR "Space Cadet? keyboard. > Really, is this any worse than the gold bugs scrapping whole systems for > the prospective precious metal content? > > --Chuck > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 12:40:01 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 12:40:01 -0600 Subject: Televideo 970 In-Reply-To: <87a7x4o9j4.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <05c66762-ac67-45f1-52b1-1ebd0ed1df9e@gmail.com> <87a7x4o9j4.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On 01/23/2018 09:54 AM, Aaron Jackson wrote: > >> 1) The EMI filter had gone open-circuit - it's one of those metal can types >> which is integrated with the IEC power input connector. Are these still >> obtainable anywhere? It seems like equipment these days just has the >> filtering directly on the PSU board, rather than as a separate module. I've >> just bypassed it for testing, but I don't want to leave it like that. > > You can still get these. The hard part is finding one which will fit > properly unless you are willing to bodge it together a bit. Just search > for "C14 EMI" on eBay and you'll find hundreds of them. Maybe you've > seen them already and were just surprised by how small they have become :) Ha, no... I'd actually not looked into it, I just assumed they were long-gone because I'd not seen one used in anything for *years*. The one in the Televideo is surprisingly compact, given the age - around 1" wide, 3/4" high and 2" deep (including the solder points). It looks like I should be able to find a replacement easily enough, though (I'm assuming that the internal component values aren't particularly critical, and it's just a case of finding something with enough max current rating) > You can also just remove it, and (safely) wire in a fixed power cord. Yes, right now I just grabbed a panel-mount IEC connector from a junk PC PSU and wired that up while I'm testing, I think long-term though I'd prefer to do it right; it won't make any difference to the terminal, but it might make other gadgets plugged into the same AC feed a little happier. :-) cheers Jules From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 23 12:53:05 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:53:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" Message-ID: <20180123185305.3552518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > Really, is this any worse than the gold bugs scrapping whole systems > for the prospective precious metal content? Well, the latter are presumably in it as a business, whereas it seems these people do it for 'fun'. Now there's an idea: perhaps we could convince them that pulling the wings off flies is a more entertaining hobby? Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 12:58:32 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:58:32 -0500 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: <20180123185305.3552518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180123185305.3552518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > Well, the latter are presumably in it as a business, whereas it seems these > people do it for 'fun'. > > Now there's an idea: perhaps we could convince them that pulling the wings > off flies is a more entertaining hobby? > > Noel > Did anyone attend VCF South East this past year, there was a large table run by a keyboard vendor. Just keyboards, laid out like tusks from poached elephants. b From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 13:00:48 2018 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 11:00:48 -0800 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: <4C96FD9F-48F2-4A9C-9AE1-BD04B6D87991@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <20180122163512.A109A18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1E0DD21D-C0AE-425A-8384-8DE499C1EB49@lunar-tokyo.net> <8cf5a124-df39-edd2-5781-5ce6235df77a@jwsss.com> <47745F85-9349-41D5-BB55-12AA1888C269@lunar-tokyo.net> <4501fdf1-7f51-fc4f-129d-0777e6729ff0@jwsss.com> <4C96FD9F-48F2-4A9C-9AE1-BD04B6D87991@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: Bill, I have an Apollo here with an 8" drive and I'm hunting for an 8" Domain media set so I can reinstall the OS. If you get them to me I can image them and send images to Al. - Ian On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 7:44 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jan 23, 2018, at 9:33 AM, jim stephens via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > The real work was done in the back rooms @ Mission control, with certain > features implemented on the systems onboard the rocket. > > > > You couldn't carry out a mission w/o the ground supporting either system > with computations to the onboard systems. You didn't punch in the address > of the moon on any system onboard the rocket, you got pre-computed > parameters from ground computations that the flight computers carried out. > > That?s exactly what I was trying to point out. What we have is a > relatively small piece of the entire puzzle. People seem to think that just > because a few versions of CM and LM software exist all is saved and done, > but it?s really only the user interface to a much larger stack. You can't > just fire up the AGC and push the ?land on the moon? button. You can run it > by itself and look at the idle loop or display the clock but getting it to > actually DO anything close to its original tasks requires input from a lot > of missing pieces. We aren?t trying to just run it in a box, that?s been > done. We?re making it FLY. > > > I'm not getting your "absolutely wrong" part. > > He said "The Saturn IBM firmware is lost, but was under command of the LM > and CM computers?. This is absolutely wrong. It was the other way around. > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 13:01:19 2018 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 11:01:19 -0800 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: References: <20180123185305.3552518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I too have always enjoyed the analogy to ivory poachers. On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 10:58 AM, william degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Well, the latter are presumably in it as a business, whereas it seems > these > > people do it for 'fun'. > > > > Now there's an idea: perhaps we could convince them that pulling the > wings > > off flies is a more entertaining hobby? > > > > Noel > > > > Did anyone attend VCF South East this past year, there was a large table > run by a keyboard vendor. Just keyboards, laid out like tusks from poached > elephants. > > b > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 23 12:54:53 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 18:54:53 +0000 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: <5342a5fb-12ee-ff3a-6d97-c4498515fae8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5342a5fb-12ee-ff3a-6d97-c4498515fae8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <71f8fb31-d31e-545c-25f4-579a38c4485a@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/01/2018 16:48, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 01/23/2018 09:10 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> If you didn't locate the transceivers on those black marks you would >> have had terrible performance as that affects collisions.? Timing >> (among other things like grounding) was very important with that >> version of ethernet hardware. > > It's my understanding that the marks (black bands or other markings on > the sheath) were exactly one wavelength apart.? Which from what I > remember ~> understand from my ham radio days is quite important. No, that's quite wrong. The marks are every 2.5m (8.2 feet) wich IIRC is 1/19th of a wavelength apart, the point being to try to minimise the likelihood of connections being made where they'd suffer constructive (additive) interference and to prevent transceivers being too close together. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 13:07:15 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 11:07:15 -0800 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: <94082811-4afb-aced-a8cb-ed7d2bb1290a@bitsavers.org> References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <94082811-4afb-aced-a8cb-ed7d2bb1290a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <043101d3947d$62558130$27008390$@gmail.com> Noel, Have you seen this part of the video where David Boggs (designer of the first 3 Mb Ethernet card for the Alto), and Ron Crane (designer of the 10 Mb Ethernet) are doing a show and tell in their own words? You get to see the clamps, the drill, the transceivers, the cards, and some of the inventors. Regrettably Ron passed away a few month after we took the video. We still miss him. https://youtu.be/XhIohWr10kU?t=4m27s Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 8:10 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) there are pictures of the transceiver w/o the vampire tap on bitsavers under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/ethernet_3mb/ On 1/23/18 7:51 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Grant Taylor > > > According to the following page, it was not RG-8 cable ... As such it > > was purpose built. > > The 10MBit cable, yes; it was custom (you can see 'Ethernet' printed > on the chunk in the picture). (I'd forgotten about the black stripes! > I'm not sure we really bothered to follow that.) > > The earlier 3Mbit I'm not so sure about - that has the air of standard > commercial coax. > > I wish there was a picture of a 3Mbit transceiver, clamp-on holder, > etc! Does the CHM or LCM have them with their Alto stuff? > > Noel > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 23 13:07:47 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:07:47 -0500 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <275F4A53-75C9-4D4D-9139-6962A47FFF32@comcast.net> > On Jan 23, 2018, at 11:10 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > If you didn't locate the transceivers on those black marks you would > have had terrible performance as that affects collisions. Timing (among > other things like grounding) was very important with that version of > ethernet hardware. > > bill Yes, the purpose of the marks is to make the collision mechanism reliable. Ethernet does not have any critical timing; collisions do not depend on timing. The black stripes on official Ethernet cable exists for a different reason: to get you to place the taps at positions that are NOT round multiples of a quarter wavelength. The reason: a tap is a (small) impedance bump, which causes reflections on the cable. If you have a lot of taps and they are spaced multiples of a wavelength apart, those reflections will combine to produce a large reflection, which if you're unlucky will look like a collision. If you pick the correct spacing, the reflections from the various taps are spread out across time and don't combine, so none of them add up to a strong enough pulse to be seen as a collision. This is clearly stated in the Ethernet V2 spec, section 7.6.2: > Coaxial cables marked as specified in 7.3.1.1.6 have marks at regular 2.5 meters spacing; a transceiver may be placed at any mark on the cable. This guarantees both a minimum spacing between transceivers of 2.5 meters, as well as controlling the relative spacing of transceivers to insure non-alignment on fractional wavelength boundaries. Reading between the lines, it's clear you could ignore those marks and get away with it in many cases. Low tap count, for example. Other positioning that meets the "non-alignment" intent. But for large installations, using the marks ensures that you stay out of trouble. The need to have a transmission line with controlled reflections is also why the cable is required to be terminated with accurate terminating resistors, at both end points (but not at any other point :-) ) and why splices are made with constant impedance connectors (N connector barrels). Apart from the marks, the 10Base5 cable is pretty ordinary. It's not exactly RG-8/U but it is not all that differen either, and if the diameter is close enough something like RG-8/U would make an acceptable substitute. The same sort of considerations could apply to 10Base2, but there things are not as strict because the cable is shorter and the station count is significantly lower (max of 30). So the spec simply states that stations should be at least 1/2 meter apart, and that there must not be a significant stub (more than a few centimeters) between the T connector and the transceiver electronics. If you build with transmission line design rules in mind, you can make Ethernet buses out of cable of your choice, so long as it's 50 ohms and good quality components are used throughout. You can, for example, splice 10Base5 to 10Base2 (with a barrel, not a T) if you follow the more restrictive of the two configuration rules. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Jan 23 13:09:53 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:09:53 +0000 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: <71f8fb31-d31e-545c-25f4-579a38c4485a@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5342a5fb-12ee-ff3a-6d97-c4498515fae8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>, <71f8fb31-d31e-545c-25f4-579a38c4485a@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: >From Wiki: "Transceivers should be installed only at precise 2.5-metre intervals. This distance was chosen to not correspond to the wavelength of the signal; this ensures that the reflections from multiple taps are not in phase. These suitable points are marked on the cable with black bands." It cites "IEEE Standard 802.3-1985. IEEE. p. 121." bill ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Pete Turnbull via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 1:54 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) On 23/01/2018 16:48, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 01/23/2018 09:10 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> If you didn't locate the transceivers on those black marks you would >> have had terrible performance as that affects collisions. Timing >> (among other things like grounding) was very important with that >> version of ethernet hardware. > > It's my understanding that the marks (black bands or other markings on > the sheath) were exactly one wavelength apart. Which from what I > remember ~> understand from my ham radio days is quite important. No, that's quite wrong. The marks are every 2.5m (8.2 feet) wich IIRC is 1/19th of a wavelength apart, the point being to try to minimise the likelihood of connections being made where they'd suffer constructive (additive) interference and to prevent transceivers being too close together. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 23 13:13:50 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 12:13:50 -0700 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5342a5fb-12ee-ff3a-6d97-c4498515fae8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <71f8fb31-d31e-545c-25f4-579a38c4485a@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <1b157741-896e-6acf-e41e-b08b25f4c67b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 01/23/2018 12:09 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > "Transceivers should be installed only at precise 2.5-metre > intervals. This distance was chosen to not correspond to the wavelength > of the signal; this ensures that the reflections from multiple taps are > not in phase. These suitable points are marked > on the cable with black bands." > > It cites "IEEE Standard 802.3-1985. > IEEE. p. 121." Thank you for correcting ~> educating me. #learnSomethingEveryDay -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Jan 23 13:22:15 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:22:15 +0000 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: <1b157741-896e-6acf-e41e-b08b25f4c67b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5342a5fb-12ee-ff3a-6d97-c4498515fae8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <71f8fb31-d31e-545c-25f4-579a38c4485a@dunnington.plus.com> , <1b157741-896e-6acf-e41e-b08b25f4c67b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: If you want a real hoot try reading what "A System Administrator?s Guide to Sun Workstations" has to say about it. Google has it available for reading. bill ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Grant Taylor via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 2:13 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) On 01/23/2018 12:09 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > "Transceivers should be installed only at precise 2.5-metre > intervals. This distance was chosen to not correspond to the wavelength > of the signal; this ensures that the reflections from multiple taps are > not in phase. These suitable points are marked > on the cable with black bands." > > It cites "IEEE Standard 802.3-1985. > IEEE. p. 121." Thank you for correcting ~> educating me. #learnSomethingEveryDay -- Grant. . . . unix || die From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 13:24:10 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 11:24:10 -0800 Subject: ISO 9816 small keyboard In-Reply-To: <2056893770.420982.1516726094104@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2056893770.420982.1516726094104@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <043301d3947f$bf45b390$3dd11ab0$@gmail.com> Would the small keyboard be the same as the one on the "Munchkin" 2382A terminal? They appear on ebay regularly. http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=421 There is one right now, but at a completely unreasonable price. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Working-Vintage-HP-2382A-terminal-computer-with-keyboard-and-PWS-Card/292046947585?hash=item43ff5ac501:g:aJ0AAOSwhlZYvQmf Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 8:48 AM To: Al Kossow via cctalk Subject: Re: ISO 9816 small keyboard Hi Al, What 9816 parts are required to run it? Do you already have the 9816 and 9121 drive? Also, is there a copy of CP/M-68K available somewhere for download? Dave On Monday, January 22, 2018, 1:13:08 PM CST, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: I acquired a copy of CP/M-68K and am trying to pull together the parts for a 9816 to run it. I have Nimitz keyboards, but would like to find its little brother that matches the size of the 9816 From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Jan 23 13:32:27 2018 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:32:27 -0600 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: <8b32091c-d5df-5693-49c1-4860c20e706a@sydex.com> References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> <610B0459-0E17-461A-8D68-68811CFDF644@lunar-tokyo.net> <8b32091c-d5df-5693-49c1-4860c20e706a@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 23, 2018, at 12:15 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Really, is this any worse than the gold bugs scrapping whole systems for > the prospective precious metal content? It seems worse to me because the gold bugs are ignorant and greedy but the keyboardists are ?computer people? and should know better. Also as far as I know the gold bugs don?t deliberately target rare systems for their rarity. From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 13:37:14 2018 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 11:37:14 -0800 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> <610B0459-0E17-461A-8D68-68811CFDF644@lunar-tokyo.net> <8b32091c-d5df-5693-49c1-4860c20e706a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jan 23, 2018, at 12:15 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Really, is this any worse than the gold bugs scrapping whole systems for > > the prospective precious metal content? > > It seems worse to me because the gold bugs are ignorant and greedy but the > keyboardists are ?computer people? and should know better. > > Also as far as I know the gold bugs don?t deliberately target rare systems > for their rarity. > > Thanks, Daniel, for this succinct differentiation! -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 13:51:07 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:51:07 -0400 Subject: ISO 9816 small keyboard In-Reply-To: <043301d3947f$bf45b390$3dd11ab0$@gmail.com> References: <2056893770.420982.1516726094104@mail.yahoo.com> <043301d3947f$bf45b390$3dd11ab0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2018-01-23 3:24 PM, Marc Verdiell via cctalk wrote: > Would the small keyboard be the same as the one on the "Munchkin" 2382A terminal? They appear on ebay regularly. > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=421 > There is one right now, but at a completely unreasonable price. > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Working-Vintage-HP-2382A-terminal-computer-with-keyboard-and-PWS-Card/292046947585?hash=item43ff5ac501:g:aJ0AAOSwhlZYvQmf > > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 8:48 AM > To: Al Kossow via cctalk > Subject: Re: ISO 9816 small keyboard > > Hi Al, > What 9816 parts are required to run it? Do you already have the 9816 and 9121 drive? Also, is there a copy of CP/M-68K available somewhere for download? > Dave > On Monday, January 22, 2018, 1:13:08 PM CST, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > I acquired a copy of CP/M-68K and am trying to pull together the parts for a 9816 to run it. I have Nimitz keyboards, but would like to find its little brother that matches the size of the 9816 > > > The keyboard technology looks the same but the layout is different. The terminal case looks to be the same as the 9816 too. Paul. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 23 13:58:00 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 12:58:00 -0700 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: <043101d3947d$62558130$27008390$@gmail.com> References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <94082811-4afb-aced-a8cb-ed7d2bb1290a@bitsavers.org> <043101d3947d$62558130$27008390$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <35a5e67c-6695-3f85-ef59-42b3d6b61e67@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 01/23/2018 12:07 PM, Marc Verdiell via cctalk wrote: > Have you seen this part of the video where David Boggs (designer of the > first 3 Mb Ethernet card for the Alto), and Ron Crane (designer of the > 10 Mb Ethernet) are doing a show and tell in their own words? You get > to see the clamps, the drill, the transceivers, the cards, and some of > the inventors. Regrettably Ron passed away a few month after we took > the video. We still miss him. https://youtu.be/XhIohWr10kU?t=4m27s I really liked that video, and the entire Alto restoration series from CuriousMarc. I've got to say, I think David Boggs saying "?very simple off the shelf stuff, for people who want to know, it's RG-8. ? This is the 50 ? version of it." I can fairly clearly see the RG-8/U on the side of the cable that David is holding at 8:01. That's good enough for me. Sure, there was probably a better alternative that came along after, with better shielding and marking bands. But it sounds like RG-8/U is definitive acceptable to me. I'll assume that David meant quality RG-8. What I don't know is if RG-8/U was used for 3 Mbps and then something else was used for 10 Mbps. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 13:58:32 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 20:58:32 +0100 Subject: ISO 9816 small keyboard In-Reply-To: <043301d3947f$bf45b390$3dd11ab0$@gmail.com> References: <2056893770.420982.1516726094104@mail.yahoo.com> <043301d3947f$bf45b390$3dd11ab0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: tisdag 23 januari 2018 skrev Marc Verdiell via cctalk : > Would the small keyboard be the same as the one on the "Munchkin" 2382A > terminal? They appear on ebay regularly. It looks very similar to the keyboard that came with my 9816 but it is lacking the rotary encoder wheel on the upper left. I tried the CP/M 68k disk found at hpmuseum.net. But I have a 9122 diskdrive. Maybe the CP/M 68k disk isn?t compatible with the 9122, only 9121? I never got it booting fully. > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=421 > There is one right now, but at a completely unreasonable price. > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Working-Vintage-HP-2382A-terminal-computer-with- > keyboard-and-PWS-Card/292046947585?hash=item43ff5ac501:g:aJ0AAOSwhlZYvQmf > > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave via > cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 8:48 AM > To: Al Kossow via cctalk > Subject: Re: ISO 9816 small keyboard > > Hi Al, > What 9816 parts are required to run it? Do you already have the 9816 and > 9121 drive? Also, is there a copy of CP/M-68K available somewhere for > download? > Dave > On Monday, January 22, 2018, 1:13:08 PM CST, Al Kossow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I acquired a copy of CP/M-68K and am trying to pull together the parts > for a 9816 to run it. I have Nimitz keyboards, but would like to find its > little brother that matches the size of the 9816 > > > > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Jan 23 14:00:00 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 20:00:00 +0000 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5342a5fb-12ee-ff3a-6d97-c4498515fae8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <71f8fb31-d31e-545c-25f4-579a38c4485a@dunnington.plus.com> , <1b157741-896e-6acf-e41e-b08b25f4c67b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>, Message-ID: That's what I get for cutting and pasting from a Google search..... Sorry... bill ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 2:22 PM To: Grant Taylor via cctalk; Grant Taylor Subject: Re: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) If you want a real hoot try reading what "A System Administrator?s Guide to Sun Workstations" has to say about it. Google has it available for reading. bill ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Grant Taylor via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 2:13 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) On 01/23/2018 12:09 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > "Transceivers should be installed only at precise 2.5-metre > intervals. This distance was chosen to not correspond to the wavelength > of the signal; this ensures that the reflections from multiple taps are > not in phase. These suitable points are marked > on the cable with black bands." > > It cites "IEEE Standard 802.3-1985. > IEEE. p. 121." Thank you for correcting ~> educating me. #learnSomethingEveryDay -- Grant. . . . unix || die From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 14:06:47 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:06:47 -0400 Subject: ISO 9816 small keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <2056893770.420982.1516726094104@mail.yahoo.com> <043301d3947f$bf45b390$3dd11ab0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <97e29673-5027-06d3-92c9-f5fc9a635775@gmail.com> On 2018-01-23 3:58 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > tisdag 23 januari 2018 skrev Marc Verdiell via cctalk > : >> Would the small keyboard be the same as the one on the "Munchkin" 2382A >> terminal? They appear on ebay regularly. > > It looks very similar to the keyboard that came with my 9816 but it is > lacking the rotary encoder wheel on the upper left. > > I tried the CP/M 68k disk found at hpmuseum.net. But I have a 9122 > diskdrive. Maybe the CP/M 68k disk isn?t compatible with the 9122, only > 9121? I never got it booting fully. The description on the hpmuseum.net page for CP/M 68K says it will only work with 9121, I do have a 9121 but I have never tried the CP/M 68K. Paul. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 23 14:19:01 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:19:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) Message-ID: <20180123201901.9DF3918C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Grant Taylor > I can fairly clearly see the RG-8/U on the side of the cable that David > is holding ... Sure, there was probably a better alternative that came > along after, with better shielding and marking bands. You keep mixing up the 3 Mbit and 10 Mbit. _They were not the same_. (I _really_ need to retake those photos with a ruler in them...) The stuff with better shield, marking bands, etc is 10 Mb; it's about 1.05cm in diagmeter. The black stuff (the stuff Dave is holding in the video) is 3Mb; the piece I have is .95 cm. The video, perhaps confusingly, shows a mix of 3Mb and 10Mb gear. The small aluminium sheet transceiver (the one attached to the black cable when Dave is doing his spiel) is the 3Mb one; the others are 10Mb. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 23 14:27:46 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:27:46 -0500 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: <20180123201901.9DF3918C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180123201901.9DF3918C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 23, 2018, at 3:19 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Grant Taylor > >> I can fairly clearly see the RG-8/U on the side of the cable that David >> is holding ... Sure, there was probably a better alternative that came >> along after, with better shielding and marking bands. > > You keep mixing up the 3 Mbit and 10 Mbit. _They were not the same_. (I > _really_ need to retake those photos with a ruler in them...) > > The stuff with better shield, marking bands, etc is 10 Mb; it's about 1.05cm > in diagmeter. The black stuff (the stuff Dave is holding in the video) is 3Mb; > the piece I have is .95 cm. The Ethernet spec says that the cable OD is in the range .365 to .415 inch, which is 9.27 to 10.54 mm. The nominal OD of RG-8/U is .405 inches, or 10.28 mm, which is within spec for Ethernet cable. One place where the two cable specs differ is in the velocity factor, 0.66 for RG-8/U and 0.77 for Ethernet cable. That relates to the dielectric -- solid polyethylene for RG-8/U and foamed material (unspecified) for Ethernet. Also, Ethernet requires a solid inner conductor (for the tap) while RG-8/U may come stranded. (Maybe only in some variants, I'm not sure.) And there are the stripes, of course, but those have no electrical significance. You can use a tape measure if you don't have the stripes. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 23 14:39:36 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:39:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) Message-ID: <20180123203936.E74C318C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > The nominal OD of RG-8/U is .. within spec for Ethernet cable. Oh, OK. I was just used to the 10Mb cable we used being slightly larger than the 3Mb cable we used. > Also, Ethernet requires a solid inner conductor (for the tap) while > RG-8/U may come stranded. (Maybe only in some variants, I'm not sure.) As can be seen in the photos, the 3Mb stuff (at least, the stuff we used) was also solid. The diameter of the center was a little smaller on the 3Mb than on the 10Mb; .16mm versus .23mm; not sure if that was just happenstance, or what. Noel From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 12:35:53 2018 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:35:53 -0500 Subject: Experimental Ethernet, XGP, etc. Message-ID: A few notes: The experimental Ethernet speed was in fact 2.94 MHz: It's the Alto clock divided by 2. The Alto based printer was called "SLOT" -- Scanning Laser Output Terminal. It was plugged into the Alto backplane and presented itself as a hardware peripheral controlled by microcode (as was the case for all Alto I/O). It was an Alto task, of course. The vampire tap transceiver used RG-8 cable originally. That's before they added the lines around the cable and added additional shielding. The XGP was used at the Stanford AI Lab and was, as mentioned early, a dry process. And it did use a roll of paper. From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Tue Jan 23 12:57:41 2018 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 20:57:41 +0200 Subject: SCSI Controller Hanging... In-Reply-To: <20180123163319.DF1084E7F8@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20180123163319.DF1084E7F8@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: What SCSI controller are you using - MVME320, 327 or 328 ? Do you reset the MVME177 board using RESET command from 177bug> along with SCSI bus reset option? Best regards, Plamen On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 6:33 PM, Jack Harper via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Greetings to the List from the Snowy Rocky Mountains. > > Beautiful clear sunny day here at +9F :) > > The SCSI controller on the 68K development system (VMEbus) that I have > cobbled together occasionally hangs after I reset one of the processor > boards (there are four MVME177-005 68060 boards in the VME rack). > > The hang then happens when my software touches the SCSI drives via the > ROM'd 68K/Bug I/O primitives and the hang will not go away even after > another reset until I cycle power. > > I have never before dealt with SCSI as a programmer - does this sound like > something is configured incorrectly? > > There is not much to configure. > > I point out that I am not certain that I have the termination resistors > correct. > > > Thoughts? > > I appreciate any advice. > > > Regards, > > Jack > Evergreen Colorado > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------------- > Jack Harper, President > Secure Outcomes Inc > 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 > Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA > > 303.670.8375 > 303.670.3750 (fax) > > http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info. > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 23 13:15:38 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:15:38 -0500 Subject: Experimental Ethernet, XGP, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7CC3B84B-8372-4C01-928F-C33A9B94AAC5@comcast.net> > On Jan 23, 2018, at 1:35 PM, Mark Kahrs via cctech wrote: > > A few notes: > ... > The vampire tap transceiver used RG-8 cable originally. That's before they > added the lines around the cable and added additional shielding. The cable spec given in the Ethernet standard doesn't mention additional shielding. It does differ from RG-8 in that it calls for foam dielectric and a higher velocity factor (0.77 rather than 0.66). Another common difference (not required by the spec) is that RG-8 is polyethylene while Ethernet coax is usually PTFE. paul From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 13:24:55 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 11:24:55 -0800 Subject: Experimental Ethernet, XGP, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Mark Kahrs via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > A few notes: > > The experimental Ethernet speed was in fact 2.94 MHz: It's the Alto clock > divided by 2. > > The Alto based printer was called "SLOT" -- Scanning Laser Output > Terminal. It was plugged into the Alto backplane and presented itself as a > hardware peripheral controlled by microcode (as was the case for all Alto > I/O). It was an Alto task, of course. > There was also the later Orbit controller, which talked to a number of ROS (Raster Output Scanner) devices, including the Dover. The Orbit controlled the ROS and the printer and had special hardware + microcode to assist in the generation of raster bands (16x4096 pixels) for imaging. This allowed the Alto to keep up with the Dover (which was approximately 1 page/second) in real time while generating 384dpi output. (Incidentally, not all Alto I/O was implemented as hardware + microcode -- just the high-bandwidth stuff; there was memory-mapped hardware at the top of the address space for keyboard/keyset/mouse and various other devices.) Also: The latest version of ContrAlto ( https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/ContrAlto) emulates the Orbit and Dover ROS in case anyone's itching to print some PRESS files :). Bitsavers has a set of disks I put together with Spruce (one of a number of Alto-based print servers) if you want to play around with it. - Josh From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 23 14:48:06 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:48:06 -0700 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: <20180123203936.E74C318C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180123203936.E74C318C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 01/23/2018 01:39 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > As can be seen in the photos, the 3Mb stuff (at least, the stuff we used) > was also solid. The diameter of the center was a little smaller on the > 3Mb than on the 10Mb; .16mm versus .23mm; not sure if that was just > happenstance, or what. That (and the OD) sounds like standard manufacturer to manufacturer variation in different RG-8 grade cables that meet / fall within the electrical / transmission / physical specifications of RG-8 cable. I expect that the "yellow hosepipe" as I've heard the 10 Mbps coax referred to as being a subset, possibly more stringent, of Radio Grade 8 coax cable. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Jan 23 14:51:57 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 12:51:57 -0800 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: <20180123203936.E74C318C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180123203936.E74C318C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: A side story. I was the only 'customer' of a long run of that yellow cable, when we moved the 260 + 3/50's to a different location, I asked if they were going to reuse the cable. "Nope, cost to much to get it out of the roof trusses." I forget but it was a LONG run. Tektronix back in those days was still an engineering oriented company and all I had to do was mention it one day in the main cafeteria. Next thing I know I was followed back to the building with at least 10 engineers following me. I called and asked one one the facility department guys that knew about the cable no longer being used, and his reply was something like if it not there Monday I know nothing about it. The bottom of the trusses were a good 15 if not more feet up. Five of us got it down and I came home with the cable on Sunday. My helpers would not take anything in $'s, the challenge was good enough. Make a great cable for my ham radio hobby. Today one would never get away with such .... -pete On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 12:39 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > > > The nominal OD of RG-8/U is .. within spec for Ethernet cable. > > Oh, OK. I was just used to the 10Mb cable we used being slightly larger > than > the 3Mb cable we used. > > > Also, Ethernet requires a solid inner conductor (for the tap) while > > RG-8/U may come stranded. (Maybe only in some variants, I'm not > sure.) > > As can be seen in the photos, the 3Mb stuff (at least, the stuff we used) > was > also solid. The diameter of the center was a little smaller on the 3Mb > than on > the 10Mb; .16mm versus .23mm; not sure if that was just happenstance, or > what. > > Noel > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 23 15:06:05 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:06:05 -0700 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: References: <20180123203936.E74C318C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2c3ba3e8-afe5-9d02-8462-43535162320e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Nice story. On 01/23/2018 01:51 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > Today one would never get away with such .... I don't know. I've had to mine out quite a bit of old cable that was abandoned in place to make room for new installations. Frequently the building owners were more than happy to see it disappear in a fashion that meant that I didn't have to bill them for my time to pull it out. Day 1: Man, we have to move get this crap out of the way so that we can do our install. Day 2: Meetings. (While interested parties pull out the cable and leave a surprise.) Day 3: Hay, I thought you said that we needed to mine something. I it looks like clear haul. ...and someone left a pull string that we can use. Suckers. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 15:17:57 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:17:57 -0800 Subject: Experimental Ethernet, XGP, etc. In-Reply-To: <7CC3B84B-8372-4C01-928F-C33A9B94AAC5@comcast.net> References: <7CC3B84B-8372-4C01-928F-C33A9B94AAC5@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:15 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > The cable spec given in the Ethernet standard doesn't mention additional shielding. It does differ from RG-8 in that it calls for foam dielectric and a higher velocity factor (0.77 rather than 0.66). Another common difference (not required by the spec) is that RG-8 is polyethylene while Ethernet coax is usually PTFE. > FWIW, here is a spec sheet for Belden 89880 Thicknet 10BASE5 cable, which apparently DEC used for their part number 17-00324-00 cable. https://catalog.belden.com/techdata/EN/89880_techdata.pdf It does mention a Nominal Velocity of Propagation (VP) of 78%, and Ring-band stripes every 2.5 meters to aid users in tap placement, among other specifications. You could buy a 1000-ft spool on eBay for only $480, vs $9,818 at Mouser. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 23 15:22:00 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:22:00 -0500 Subject: Experimental Ethernet, XGP, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <7CC3B84B-8372-4C01-928F-C33A9B94AAC5@comcast.net> Message-ID: <622449DF-D302-42B4-93FD-70D02806EF5B@comcast.net> > On Jan 23, 2018, at 4:17 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:15 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >> >> The cable spec given in the Ethernet standard doesn't mention additional shielding. It does differ from RG-8 in that it calls for foam dielectric and a higher velocity factor (0.77 rather than 0.66). Another common difference (not required by the spec) is that RG-8 is polyethylene while Ethernet coax is usually PTFE. >> > > FWIW, here is a spec sheet for Belden 89880 Thicknet 10BASE5 cable, > which apparently DEC used for their part number 17-00324-00 cable. > > https://catalog.belden.com/techdata/EN/89880_techdata.pdf Yes, that looks like the stuff. A smoky orange color due to the translucent jacket. I once saw at DEC a run of prototype cable, which was bright yellow with black stripes. Perhaps polyethylene jacket, which would explain why it was changed before becoming a product -- that was right around the time when the "plenum rated" cable specs were appearing. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Jan 23 15:23:17 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 21:23:17 +0000 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: References: <20180123203936.E74C318C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, Message-ID: I hope they all weren't on that yellow cable. @60 devices on a single collision domain would likely not have worked very well. I also can't believe you used Ethernet RG8 for ham radio. I read the spec and even tried some (I had reels of that stuff at one time) and found it way too lossy even at HF frequencies. It was very low quality RG8. bill KB3YV ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Pete Lancashire via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 3:51 PM To: Noel Chiappa; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) A side story. I was the only 'customer' of a long run of that yellow cable, when we moved the 260 + 3/50's to a different location, I asked if they were going to reuse the cable. "Nope, cost to much to get it out of the roof trusses." I forget but it was a LONG run. Tektronix back in those days was still an engineering oriented company and all I had to do was mention it one day in the main cafeteria. Next thing I know I was followed back to the building with at least 10 engineers following me. I called and asked one one the facility department guys that knew about the cable no longer being used, and his reply was something like if it not there Monday I know nothing about it. The bottom of the trusses were a good 15 if not more feet up. Five of us got it down and I came home with the cable on Sunday. My helpers would not take anything in $'s, the challenge was good enough. Make a great cable for my ham radio hobby. Today one would never get away with such .... -pete On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 12:39 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > > > The nominal OD of RG-8/U is .. within spec for Ethernet cable. > > Oh, OK. I was just used to the 10Mb cable we used being slightly larger > than > the 3Mb cable we used. > > > Also, Ethernet requires a solid inner conductor (for the tap) while > > RG-8/U may come stranded. (Maybe only in some variants, I'm not > sure.) > > As can be seen in the photos, the 3Mb stuff (at least, the stuff we used) > was > also solid. The diameter of the center was a little smaller on the 3Mb > than on > the 10Mb; .16mm versus .23mm; not sure if that was just happenstance, or > what. > > Noel > > From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Jan 23 15:38:49 2018 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:38:49 -0600 Subject: Televideo 970 In-Reply-To: <05c66762-ac67-45f1-52b1-1ebd0ed1df9e@gmail.com> References: <05c66762-ac67-45f1-52b1-1ebd0ed1df9e@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20180123213848.GA14500@lonesome.com> That reminds me, I still have one or two in the garage (yes, stored in uncontrolled conditions). Maybe a manual as well. If anyone is interested, contact me off-list. I'm in Austin, Texas, USA. mcl From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Jan 23 15:42:54 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:42:54 -0800 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: References: <20180123203936.E74C318C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: It was back in the days when $'s were very very tight, and I did 90% 80 and 40. Loss was greater but the cost was the major point. On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 1:23 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I hope they all weren't on that yellow cable. @60 devices on a single > collision domain would likely not have worked very well. > > I also can't believe you used Ethernet RG8 for ham radio. I read the > spec and even tried some (I had reels of that stuff at one time) and > found it way too lossy even at HF frequencies. It was very low quality > RG8. > > bill > KB3YV > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Pete Lancashire > via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 3:51 PM > To: Noel Chiappa; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) > > A side story. I was the only 'customer' of a long run of that yellow cable, > when we moved the 260 + 3/50's to a different location, I asked > if they were going to reuse the cable. "Nope, cost to much to get it out of > the roof trusses." I forget but it was a LONG run. Tektronix > back in those days was still an engineering oriented company and all I had > to do was mention it one day in the main cafeteria. Next > thing I know I was followed back to the building with at least 10 engineers > following me. I called and asked one one the facility department > guys that knew about the cable no longer being used, and his reply was > something like if it not there Monday I know nothing about it. > > The bottom of the trusses were a good 15 if not more feet up. Five of us > got it down and I came home with the cable on Sunday. > My helpers would not take anything in $'s, the challenge was good enough. > > Make a great cable for my ham radio hobby. > > Today one would never get away with such .... > > -pete > > > > On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 12:39 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > From: Paul Koning > > > > > The nominal OD of RG-8/U is .. within spec for Ethernet cable. > > > > Oh, OK. I was just used to the 10Mb cable we used being slightly larger > > than > > the 3Mb cable we used. > > > > > Also, Ethernet requires a solid inner conductor (for the tap) while > > > RG-8/U may come stranded. (Maybe only in some variants, I'm not > > sure.) > > > > As can be seen in the photos, the 3Mb stuff (at least, the stuff we used) > > was > > also solid. The diameter of the center was a little smaller on the 3Mb > > than on > > the 10Mb; .16mm versus .23mm; not sure if that was just happenstance, or > > what. > > > > Noel > > > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 15:45:44 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:45:44 -0500 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <94082811-4afb-aced-a8cb-ed7d2bb1290a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:12 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Vampire taps. Now there's a blast from the past. Somewhere around here > I still have my toolbag which still has my tap drill for installing those taps. I also have a tap drill somewhere, but it was a rescue from a clean-out. I've never installed any Thicknet... so far. I did pick up a bit of yellow 10mbit cable at VCF Midwest a couple years back, and a couple of taps. I wish I had one more to make it interesting. I do have some of the boxy transceivers but with 10Base2 BNCs on the mounting plate that can also take a vampire tap mounting plate. One of my long-term low-priority projects is to mount that Ethernet segment high up on a wall, display fashion, and have 2-3 stations and AUI cables hanging down to table height for interconnecting vintage networking gear. I do have 10BaseT hubs with AUI ports and even one or two AUI<->Fiber MAUs to make it all interesting. Something I have that may be of interest here is a small box of N-connector 50 Ohm terminators. I can't ever imagining needing more than 2 pair for my entire life, so if anyone wants to swap for vintage network hardware, let me know. Mostly, I really want one or two of the clamp-on vampire taps, the kind you could unscrew from the transceiver (so that you never had to disturb the tap but you could remove a station). The last time I knew I was using Etherhose was at the South Pole in 1996 - they had a long run of it before they switched all the building interconnects to fiber. It's probably still buried there. -ethan From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 16:23:04 2018 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:23:04 -0600 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: References: <20180123185305.3552518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 12:58 PM, william degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Did anyone attend VCF South East this past year, there was a large table > run by a keyboard vendor. Just keyboards, laid out like tusks from poached > elephants. > Lol! I love it. From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 16:26:10 2018 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:26:10 -0600 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > ?are the bane of my existence and should all rot in hell. > > Sorry, I just received an email from a ?keyboard enthusiast? who was > looking for > various IBM 327x keyboards and wanted to know if I could help him and I > needed > to vent a little. > > I sent him a polite ?no way in hell? response but I?m still angry about > it. These > terminals are hard enough to find. And more often than not, the keyboard > is > missing because some ?enthusiast? thought it would be cool to convert it > to a PC > keyboard. ARG! And of course the keyboards that they want are the > ?typewriter? > keyboards (all of my 3278 terminals have the ?data entry keyboard?). > > In their defense (and yes, I think they are awful no good people), I guess you can't fault them too much since up until fairly recently a quality mechanical keyboard was either too expensive or practically impossible to source for a modern computer, what with the obsession with flat square keycaps with next to no travel, etc. At least now we are starting to get some decent lower cost options in the marketplace as new. Maybe these new keyboards will dissuade people from destroying rare artifacts. From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 16:31:32 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 17:31:32 -0500 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 5:26 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > ?are the bane of my existence and should all rot in hell. > > > > > > In their defense (and yes, I think they are awful no good people), I guess > you can't fault them too much since up until fairly recently a quality > mechanical keyboard was either too expensive or practically impossible to > source for a modern computer, what with the obsession with flat square > keycaps with next to no travel, etc. At least now we are starting to get > some decent lower cost options in the marketplace as new. Maybe these new > keyboards will dissuade people from destroying rare artifacts. > Also - I should add the vendor at VCF SE did have new keyboards to sell too, I think he was thinking the vintage people would like to see some vintage keyboards to buy, and perhaps to marry back to their original systems. I also think a lot of keyboard enthusiasts have no idea that there is a historically-significant computer associated with the keyboard. Ignorance is a factor. I have come upon batches of keyboards with no machines in my travels, and I have a few IBM terminal keyboards (newer type M's), but no one seemed to want them unless I removed the RJ jack and put in a PS/2 jack. Bill From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 23 17:42:11 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:42:11 -0800 Subject: ISO 9816 small keyboard In-Reply-To: <2056893770.420982.1516726094104@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2056893770.420982.1516726094104@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 1/23/18 8:48 AM, Dave via cctalk wrote: > Hi Al, > What 9816 parts are required to run it?? Do you already have the 9816 and 9121 drive?? Also, is there a copy of CP/M-68K available somewhere for download? > Dave > On Monday, January 22, 2018, 1:13:08 PM CST, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: A friend made an adapter board for HP's 26 and 34 pin 600rpm drives to standard 34 pin that we should have soon. I was not able to read any of the disks with a normal 300rpm drive, so the software has not been imaged yet. I have an early 9122 that has the same board as a 9121 and was going to retrofit the older firmware. The piece I'd like to get is the little keyboard so the whole thing takes up less space then using a Nimitz keyboard. There is one disk for CP/M-68K on the HP Museum site, but what I have is very different (6 disks with additional .rel and src files) copyright 1984 Empirical Research Group I'm really hoping it can be recovered. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 23 17:49:31 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:49:31 -0800 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: <20180123185305.3552518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180123185305.3552518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/23/18 10:53 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > it seems these > people do it for 'fun'. As an experiment I put a couple of obscure mechanical keyboards up on eBay, like Tektronix reed switch APL ones and NOS Kaypros with a high price but a 'make offer' and have gotten zero interest in them. They also do stupid sh*t like minutia details on the 9816 keyboard but then don't write down the actual HP part number for it. https://deskthority.net/wiki/HP_9816 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 23 17:50:31 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:50:31 -0800 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: References: <20180123185305.3552518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6ec17729-9b6f-87cd-84e3-5e44b5be22db@bitsavers.org> On 1/23/18 11:01 AM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > I too have always enjoyed the analogy to ivory poachers. > Those are computer front panel collectors. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 17:50:31 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:50:31 -0400 Subject: ISO 9816 small keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <2056893770.420982.1516726094104@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <83b9a164-8afc-6732-9f7d-e7a31c7ffeba@gmail.com> On 2018-01-23 7:42 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/23/18 8:48 AM, Dave via cctalk wrote: >> Hi Al, >> What 9816 parts are required to run it?? Do you already have the 9816 and 9121 drive?? Also, is there a copy of CP/M-68K available somewhere for download? >> Dave >> On Monday, January 22, 2018, 1:13:08 PM CST, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > A friend made an adapter board for HP's 26 and 34 pin 600rpm drives to standard 34 pin > that we should have soon. I was not able to read any of the disks with a normal 300rpm > drive, so the software has not been imaged yet. > > I have an early 9122 that has the same board as a 9121 and was going to retrofit the older firmware. > > The piece I'd like to get is the little keyboard so the whole thing takes up less space then using > a Nimitz keyboard. > > There is one disk for CP/M-68K on the HP Museum site, but what I have is very > different (6 disks with additional .rel and src files) copyright 1984 Empirical Research Group > > I'm really hoping it can be recovered. > That's odd I have never had any trouble reading or creating diskettes for my HP 600 RPM drives on PCs using 300 rpm drives,? I mostly use an old Panasonic PII Toughbook. Paul. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 17:54:15 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:54:15 -0400 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: References: <20180123185305.3552518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6033ab20-48e6-40c2-24be-9295e97b029a@gmail.com> On 2018-01-23 7:49 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/23/18 10:53 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> it seems these >> people do it for 'fun'. > As an experiment I put a couple of obscure mechanical keyboards up on eBay, > like Tektronix reed switch APL ones and NOS Kaypros > with a high price but a 'make offer' and have gotten zero interest in them. > > They also do stupid sh*t like minutia details on the 9816 keyboard but then > don't write down the actual HP part number for it. > > https://deskthority.net/wiki/HP_9816 > Nice ...."Volume adjuster for beeper on left"? and on bottom view "bulky beeper on the top right" Paul. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 23 18:04:52 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:04:52 -0800 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: References: <20180123201901.9DF3918C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/23/18 12:27 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> The stuff with better shield, marking bands, etc is 10 Mb; it's about 1.05cm >> in diagmeter. The black stuff (the stuff Dave is holding in the video) is 3Mb; >> the piece I have is .95 cm. > > The Ethernet spec says that the cable OD is in the range .365 to .415 inch, which is 9.27 to 10.54 mm. The nominal OD of RG-8/U is .405 inches, or 10.28 mm, which is within spec for Ethernet cable. > He's holding up the wrong stuff if it's RG-8 Experimental Ethernet is 75 ohms. see http://bitsavers.org/public_html/pdf/xerox/alto/ethernetEthernet_Transceiver_Electrical_Characteristics Drive Voltage: +3 volts (Nominal) into >> 37.5 ohms << There is a clue in the PARC Ethernet Blue and White about this where they mention they used CATV technology (where the vampire taps come from ) but they don't actually say there that they used 75 Ohm cable, terminated at both ends. From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Jan 23 18:13:24 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:13:24 -0500 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1612583198e-1d2a-394c7@webjas-vac121.srv.aolmail.net> When ?out and ?about when I saw a keyboard with some unworldly number of ?function keys ?on it ( I recall?one ?with 3 ?rows of them... and other oddities?) I ? got and stashed them.... now ?to find them.. ? ? ?We are stating a ?move to ?convert ?boxed?of??weird ?odds?and ends ?stuff ( in the computer ?area, ?general science area, teletype area and radio area) ?to ?$$$ ? for ?re-roofing ?buildings... and completing half ?completed ?groups of things into ?finished??displays.... all this ?stuff is ? fun and neat ?but ?time??to focus ?some ?I think... ? ? what is the ?market ?on odd keyboards?? ? ? thx ?Ed# www.smecc.org? ? In a message dated 1/23/2018 3:23:10 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 12:58 PM, william degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Did anyone attend VCF South East this past year, there was a large table > run by a keyboard vendor. Just keyboards, laid out like tusks from poached > elephants. > Lol! I love it. From steven at malikoff.com Tue Jan 23 18:17:16 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 10:17:16 +1000 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: <6ec17729-9b6f-87cd-84e3-5e44b5be22db@bitsavers.org> References: <20180123185305.3552518C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6ec17729-9b6f-87cd-84e3-5e44b5be22db@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al said: > On 1/23/18 11:01 AM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: >> I too have always enjoyed the analogy to ivory poachers. >> > > Those are computer front panel collectors. Sometimes this has a good outcome: a couple of years ago I acquired a slimline 11/10 with a home-made front switch panel, the original presumably souvenired in the distant past. When it arrived, I realised it was an early production model with the cast Mazak lower bezel without the air slots. This is the version shown in the 11/05 handbook photographs. Last December an early 11/10 console with the unpainted cast DIGITAL logo and lower black trim stripe under the switches appeared on the usual auction site, so I was very keen to acquire it, which I managed to, and after finding some of the correct # screws and star washers it's now with the rest of the machine. It's a nice feeling to get a console back onto the rest of the computer and even nicer to have the chronologically correct one as well. The advesive tape holding the plastic nomenclature strip on had perished, and on the reverse side of the strip is written in pencil '2-73' which would match the era. Steve. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 23 18:24:08 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:24:08 -0800 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: References: <20180123201901.9DF3918C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/23/18 4:04 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > He's holding up the wrong stuff if it's RG-8 > > Experimental Ethernet is 75 ohms. > I just went out to storage and got the run of cable that was used with a Dorado. I'll take some pics of it later. It is orange, looks like RG-6, is Malco 98278 (Xerox PN 117P80660) I measured the terminator resistance to be 75.0 ohms. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 23 18:33:57 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:33:57 -0800 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: References: <20180123201901.9DF3918C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0a534d3b-6e38-25ff-11cb-fbe513232046@sydex.com> On 01/23/2018 04:04 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > There is a clue in the PARC Ethernet Blue and White about this where > they mention they used CATV technology (where the vampire taps come > from ) but they don't actually say there that they used 75 Ohm cable, > terminated at both ends. Wasn't that ChaosNet? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 23 18:36:53 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:36:53 -0800 Subject: Interest in Teac FD235J drives and FC-1 boards? Message-ID: <709f112f-5caa-a536-e03e-045d49ef09a8@sydex.com> I've got a fellow with a stock of Teac FD235J (2.88) drives and about a dozen bare Teac FC-1 SCSI boards. I'm trying to gauge interest--I don't think he wants to sell them onesy-twosy, but I'm willing to act as intermediary for single-unit purchases if there is sufficient interest. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 19:13:38 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:13:38 -0600 Subject: Interest in Teac FD235J drives and FC-1 boards? In-Reply-To: <709f112f-5caa-a536-e03e-045d49ef09a8@sydex.com> References: <709f112f-5caa-a536-e03e-045d49ef09a8@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 6:36 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I've got a fellow with a stock of Teac FD235J (2.88) drives and about a > dozen bare Teac FC-1 SCSI boards. I'm interested, if the drives can be used for imaging 2.88 media (a la IBM, etc). Probably not so much the SCSI boards - the drives seem to have regular 34-pin interfaces, if I'm looking at the right photos. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 21:12:00 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 21:12:00 -0600 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> <005301d39303$c6d5c640$548152c0$@ntlworld.com> <65204cb3-7822-bcbc-a970-33e013d31c4b@gmail.com> Message-ID: <93a57dab-d4aa-4078-c18b-df59a05a8a43@gmail.com> On 01/22/2018 08:07 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> At this stage I've got no idea if it's a SMPSU or a linear (I've not > popped the panel off)... I suppose if it's linear then it perhaps doesn't > even need a load to do its thing. If it's a switcher then I expect it'll at > least need something on +5V, and maybe +12V too (unless it has built-in > load resistors to keep the regulation happy, as designs occasionally do). > > It's actually 3 separate boards and 2 identical discrete PSUs for +12 and > +5 in a massive metal box, the thing is a beast and fits along the whole > side of the machine behind the Q22 backplane. Aha, so it is... I just removed it for a visual inspection. Pretty clean inside, some dust, five or six mouse turds (but no sign of piss damage), a chunk of slate, and a golf tee. When the bit of slate fell out I was a little concerned that it was a fragment of ceramic IC/component packaging, but I really do think it's just a piece of slate tile or whatnot that had somehow found its way in there over the years. No obviously-roached caps or other components, so I'll figure out some form of loading and give it a go. cheers J. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Jan 23 21:21:58 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:21:58 -0800 Subject: CX laser printers (Was: Sun3 valuations? In-Reply-To: References: <1822c2ce-1d7c-aaac-d9c5-05513b3c5217@e-bbes.com> <4696bca9-57ed-0f87-82e6-5024c14464b4@bitsavers.org> <003601d393f1$3d5cce10$b8166a30$@net> Message-ID: <001201d394c2$7f24c9c0$7d6e5d40$@net> > At least close. > It's what Printerworks says that they use to repaint the Fedex purple > printers back to look like the other CX based printers. Check the Fred, Thanks for the info. I guess I may have to stop by the local Sherman-Williams and see what they have! p.s. while we are at it anybody remember what the color is for the "Apple Platinum" machines (a la Mac IIs)? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 23 22:14:28 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 20:14:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interest in Teac FD235J drives and FC-1 boards? In-Reply-To: References: <709f112f-5caa-a536-e03e-045d49ef09a8@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 6:36 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >> I've got a fellow with a stock of Teac FD235J (2.88) drives and about a >> dozen bare Teac FC-1 SCSI boards. On Tue, 23 Jan 2018, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > I'm interested, if the drives can be used for imaging 2.88 media (a la > IBM, etc). Probably not so much the SCSI boards - the drives seem to > have regular 34-pin interfaces, if I'm looking at the right photos. Be aware that you will also need a different controller, or some minor modifications. PC controllers normally support 250,000 bits per second ("360K", "720K"), and 500,000 bits per second ("1.2M, "1.4M") SOMETIMES 125,000 bits per second for 5.25" SD/FM. 2.8M runs at 1,000,000 bits per second. Such controllers exist, but are not very common. Can Catweasel/kryoflux handle that data transfer rate? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 23 22:33:25 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 20:33:25 -0800 Subject: Interest in Teac FD235J drives and FC-1 boards? In-Reply-To: References: <709f112f-5caa-a536-e03e-045d49ef09a8@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 01/23/2018 08:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Be aware that you will also need a different controller, or some minor > modifications. > > PC controllers normally support 250,000 bits per second ("360K", "720K"), > and 500,000 bits per second ("1.2M, "1.4M") > SOMETIMES 125,000 bits per second for 5.25" SD/FM. > > 2.8M runs at 1,000,000 bits per second. > > Such controllers exist, but are not very common. Fred. They've been fairly common since the 496 days (I've got several machines with the controllers on them, including a 486 VLB system). They kind of died out during the P2-P3 days and I don't know if I've got a P4 system with that capability. Of course, the media is darned near unobtainium, so the question is somewhat moot. But the drives themselves usually have more configurability than the usual FD235HF drives. --Chuck From ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 22:40:16 2018 From: ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com (Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 23:40:16 -0500 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 12:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > ?are the bane of my existence and should all rot in hell. > > Sorry, I just received an email from a ?keyboard enthusiast? who was looking for > various IBM 327x keyboards and wanted to know if I could help him and I needed > to vent a little. Ugh. Don't get me started. I collect terminals. Missing keyboards is a perennial problem, but it's gotten WAY worse in recent years. I have two terminals here that are missing the keyboards because some "enthusiast" bought them out from under me during an eBay transaction. So, now I have an Infoton and an IBM 3101 here that are completely worthless because the keyboards are missing. And I have no hope of ever finding replacements - especially for the IBM 3101, because that's one of the ones the keyboard jerks really seem to love because it's the older beam spring kind. Grr..... From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 23 22:45:19 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 20:45:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interest in Teac FD235J drives and FC-1 boards? In-Reply-To: References: <709f112f-5caa-a536-e03e-045d49ef09a8@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> 2.8M runs at 1,000,000 bits per second. >> Such controllers exist, but are not very common. On Tue, 23 Jan 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Fred. They've been fairly common since the 496 days (I've got several > machines with the controllers on them, including a 486 VLB system). They almost started to catch on, particularly in some PS/2. I had one with a MicroSolutions "Backpack" parallel port interface. > They kind of died out during the P2-P3 days and I don't know if I've got > a P4 system with that capability. > Of course, the media is darned near unobtainium, so the question is > somewhat moot. > But the drives themselves usually have more configurability than the > usual FD235HF drives. For the sake of "completeness", and maybe for NeXT disks, they would be essential. And it is a versatile drive for 1.4M From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 23 23:05:34 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 21:05:34 -0800 Subject: Interest in Teac FD235J drives and FC-1 boards? In-Reply-To: References: <709f112f-5caa-a536-e03e-045d49ef09a8@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 01/23/2018 08:45 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > They almost started to catch on, particularly in some PS/2. > I had one with a MicroSolutions "Backpack" parallel port interface. It would be a simple matter to upgrade a 1.44M backpack floppy with a 2.88M capable drive, as the controller is a PC8477 and the driver software still supports it (as of the last units to roll off the line). The Compaticard IV and a few other ISA cards support ED mode also. But again, why? I still have a box of the Imation ED floppies (barium ferrite). The price was ridiculous for floppies of the time. > For the sake of "completeness", and maybe for NeXT disks, they would be > essential. > > And it is a versatile drive for 1.4M > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 23 23:27:07 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 21:27:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interest in Teac FD235J drives and FC-1 boards? In-Reply-To: References: <709f112f-5caa-a536-e03e-045d49ef09a8@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jan 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > The Compaticard IV and a few other ISA cards support ED mode also. > But again, why? I still have a box of the Imation ED floppies (barium > ferrite). The price was ridiculous for floppies of the time. Until CD-rOM became the standard for software distribution, doubling the capacity per floppy was always good news. And there was always the hopee that media price would come down "once they catch on". 2.8M seemed far more likely to catch on than "Floptical" (20MB) I was often wrong about such things; I thought that surely Microsoft would fix SMARTDRV before releasing Windoze 3.10, but that didn't happen until DOS 6.20 Being part of the problem, . . . I was very happy in 1991, to finally find Windoze 3.0 and 3.1 on CD-ROM, to stop juggling several dozen installation floppies. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 18:58:30 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 18:58:30 -0600 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: <72bcc969-6de7-4943-2603-790979c5ffd8@gmail.com> References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> <72bcc969-6de7-4943-2603-790979c5ffd8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <74d40732-7d4a-ae5e-3c89-6ed8f9b06d1c@gmail.com> On 01/22/2018 02:05 PM, allison via cctech wrote: > > > On 1/22/18 2:18 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: >> I can't believe you 'just carry it into the house' all by yourself, >> unless you are professional athlete. >> I also have a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box and it has wheels for a >> reason! The damn thing weighs 130 lbs! >> I took it to the VCF East last year, never do that again. Too heavy. >> > Huge difference between BA23 and ba123 as the BA123 is about twice the size > and internal board space. Mine's the BA123, the bigger one. It's heavy! I lifted it out of the van myself and put it onto one of the kids' old sleds so that I could drag it through the snow to the door it needed to go through, then picked it up again and took it up the few steps that were necessary. Did I mention that it was heavy? I did take the side panels off, which helped a lot - I could lift it (just) then with one hand around the top edge and the other on the metal bar at the bottom by the power inlet. I certainly wouldn't want to carry one far. >> Yes, remove the NiCad battery. >> > Its easily replaced. Does leaving it out entirely cause any issues (at least during a testing phase)? If it's actually holding a charge at present (I seriously doubt it, but it doesn't appear to have leaked) is there any benefit to leaving it in initially - i.e. is it responsible for retaining any settings (e.g. disk parameters) that it would be useful for me to write down - assuming the system proves to be operational - before replacing it? > RD53s had a problem with the head sticking against the stops. I repair > them, yes I open them > unstick it then remove the offending the rubber parts. That's useful to know - I'm certainly not against doing that myself if it proves necessary (assuming that's the drive I have) cheers Jules From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 20:00:50 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 21:00:50 -0500 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: <74d40732-7d4a-ae5e-3c89-6ed8f9b06d1c@gmail.com> References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> <72bcc969-6de7-4943-2603-790979c5ffd8@gmail.com> <74d40732-7d4a-ae5e-3c89-6ed8f9b06d1c@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/23/2018 07:58 PM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote: > On 01/22/2018 02:05 PM, allison via cctech wrote: >> >> >> On 1/22/18 2:18 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: >>> I can't believe you 'just carry it into the house' all by yourself, >>> unless you are professional athlete. >>> I also have a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box and it has wheels >>> for a >>> reason!? The damn thing weighs 130 lbs! >>> I took it to the VCF East last year, never do that again.? Too heavy. >>> >> Huge difference between BA23 and ba123 as the BA123 is about twice >> the size >> and internal board space. > > Mine's the BA123, the bigger one. It's heavy! I lifted it out of the > van myself and put it onto one of the kids' old sleds so that I could > drag it through the snow to the door it needed to go through, then > picked it up again and took it up the few steps that were necessary. > Did I mention that it was heavy? > > I did take the side panels off, which helped a lot - I could lift it > (just) then with one hand around the top edge and the other on the > metal bar at the bottom by the power inlet. I certainly wouldn't want > to carry one far. > Your younger than I.? I moved min in the summer so the wheels were good end ough anda 2WD Toyota pickup (1999) is low so it was slide it up and in.? Using a a winch didn't hurt either. >>> Yes, remove the NiCad battery. >>> >> Its easily replaced. > > Does leaving it out entirely cause any issues (at least during a > testing phase)? > > If it's actually holding a charge at present (I seriously doubt it, > but it doesn't appear to have leaked) is there any benefit to leaving > it in initially - i.e. is it responsible for retaining any settings > (e.g. disk parameters) that it would be useful for me to write down - > assuming the system proves to be operational - before replacing it? > If its working and not leaking go for it.? Its easy to replace when you need to. >> RD53s had a problem with the head sticking against the stops.? I repair >> them, yes I open them >> unstick it then remove the offending the rubber parts. > > That's useful to know - I'm certainly not against doing that myself if > it proves necessary (assuming that's the drive I have) > My favorite line for all this is Kaplagh~!? Go for it and get the docs they can really help!? Allison > cheers > > Jules > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Tue Jan 23 21:28:59 2018 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 22:28:59 -0500 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: <74d40732-7d4a-ae5e-3c89-6ed8f9b06d1c@gmail.com> References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> <72bcc969-6de7-4943-2603-790979c5ffd8@gmail.com> <74d40732-7d4a-ae5e-3c89-6ed8f9b06d1c@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2815ad77-cbf2-cde1-f40e-b09b6b7bb643@comcast.net> On 1/23/2018 7:58 PM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote: > On 01/22/2018 02:05 PM, allison via cctech wrote: >> >> >> On 1/22/18 2:18 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: >>> I can't believe you 'just carry it into the house' all by yourself, >>> unless you are professional athlete. >>> I also have a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box and it has wheels >>> for a >>> reason!? The damn thing weighs 130 lbs! >>> I took it to the VCF East last year, never do that again.? Too heavy. >>> >> Huge difference between BA23 and ba123 as the BA123 is about twice >> the size >> and internal board space. > > Mine's the BA123, the bigger one. It's heavy! I lifted it out of the > van myself and put it onto one of the kids' old sleds so that I could > drag it through the snow to the door it needed to go through, then > picked it up again and took it up the few steps that were necessary. > Did I mention that it was heavy? It won't get stolen.? At VCF there were some young folks who helped me, thanks to them! > > I did take the side panels off, which helped a lot - I could lift it > (just) then with one hand around the top edge and the other on the > metal bar at the bottom by the power inlet. I certainly wouldn't want > to carry one far. > >>> Yes, remove the NiCad battery. >>> >> Its easily replaced. > > Does leaving it out entirely cause any issues (at least during a > testing phase)? I was able to start and run the machine w/o the battery.? Had to enter the date/time each startup.? Not sure what else was remembered by the battery backup. > > If it's actually holding a charge at present (I seriously doubt it, > but it doesn't appear to have leaked) is there any benefit to leaving > it in initially - i.e. is it responsible for retaining any settings > (e.g. disk parameters) that it would be useful for me to write down - > assuming the system proves to be operational - before replacing it? > >> RD53s had a problem with the head sticking against the stops.? I repair >> them, yes I open them >> unstick it then remove the offending the rubber parts. > > That's useful to know - I'm certainly not against doing that myself if > it proves necessary (assuming that's the drive I have) I saved the RD53's, maybe they can be revived. > > cheers > > Jules > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 24 01:00:28 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 23:00:28 -0800 Subject: Interest in Teac FD235J drives and FC-1 boards? In-Reply-To: References: <709f112f-5caa-a536-e03e-045d49ef09a8@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 01/23/2018 09:27 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Being part of the problem, . . . I was very happy in 1991, to finally > find Windoze 3.0 and 3.1 on CD-ROM, to stop juggling several dozen > installation floppies. The last-gasp installation floppies--Microsoft 21-sector DMF distribution (or IBM bizarre XDF 8192+2048+1024+512) floppies for OS/2). In the end, I don't think 2.88M distribution would have helped. Software was growing too fast. I did encounter people saying that they had great results using HD media as ED in some host-sense IBM drives. I told them to check back with me in a couple of years as to the readability of those disks. I've still got one of the 20MB Brier floppy drives, though heaven knows why... It's funny--I routinely get HD 5.25" disks written on old DD CP/M machines that read just fine, by and large. And lots of WP 3.5" floppies (240K FM) written on HD media and never had run across one that couldn't be read. But ED on HD media seems like more of a hope than reality to me. --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Jan 24 02:31:31 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 03:31:31 -0500 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161274b2532-1724-8d4ea@webjas-vad022.srv.aolmail.net> ah ?do they ?don't ?just ?collect just loose keyboards ?they 'snatch' ?keyboards ?leaving the rest of the carcus ?to of the terminal to ?rot?? I knew this ?went on with front panels... ? Ed# ? In a message dated 1/23/2018 9:40:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 12:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > ?are the bane of my existence and should all rot in hell. > > Sorry, I just received an email from a ?keyboard enthusiast? who was looking for > various IBM 327x keyboards and wanted to know if I could help him and I needed > to vent a little. Ugh. Don't get me started. I collect terminals. Missing keyboards is a perennial problem, but it's gotten WAY worse in recent years. I have two terminals here that are missing the keyboards because some "enthusiast" bought them out from under me during an eBay transaction. So, now I have an Infoton and an IBM 3101 here that are completely worthless because the keyboards are missing. And I have no hope of ever finding replacements - especially for the IBM 3101, because that's one of the ones the keyboard jerks really seem to love because it's the older beam spring kind. Grr..... From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 03:31:53 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:31:53 +0000 Subject: Televideo 970 In-Reply-To: <20180123213848.GA14500@lonesome.com> References: <05c66762-ac67-45f1-52b1-1ebd0ed1df9e@gmail.com> <20180123213848.GA14500@lonesome.com> Message-ID: > That reminds me, I still have one or two in the garage (yes, stored in > uncontrolled conditions). Maybe a manual as well. If anyone is > interested, contact me off-list. Why do these things always have a Large Body Of Water between me and them :) Cheers A On 23 January 2018 at 21:38, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > That reminds me, I still have one or two in the garage (yes, stored in > uncontrolled conditions). Maybe a manual as well. If anyone is > interested, contact me off-list. > > I'm in Austin, Texas, USA. > > mcl > -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 24 05:42:17 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 06:42:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) Message-ID: <20180124114217.EF32C18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > On 01/23/2018 04:04 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> they mention they used CATV technology (where the vampire taps come >> from) > Wasn't that ChaosNet? The CHAOS net (capitalization varied, but original docs usually use two words) hardware did use the heavy-duty CATV cable (not the indoor stuff; I have a chunk of the heavy-duty kind they used too :-), but not vampire taps; the transceivers had T-connectors on them, and to install one, one put connectors on the ends of the cable segments, and screwed them onto the T-connector. Noel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Jan 24 07:48:40 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 13:48:40 +0000 Subject: Interest in Teac FD235J drives and FC-1 boards? In-Reply-To: References: <709f112f-5caa-a536-e03e-045d49ef09a8@sydex.com> , Message-ID: I wouldn't mind a couple of FC-1 but I bet the price would be much more than I can afford. bill ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 2:00 AM To: Fred Cisin via cctalk Subject: Re: Interest in Teac FD235J drives and FC-1 boards? On 01/23/2018 09:27 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Being part of the problem, . . . I was very happy in 1991, to finally > find Windoze 3.0 and 3.1 on CD-ROM, to stop juggling several dozen > installation floppies. The last-gasp installation floppies--Microsoft 21-sector DMF distribution (or IBM bizarre XDF 8192+2048+1024+512) floppies for OS/2). In the end, I don't think 2.88M distribution would have helped. Software was growing too fast. I did encounter people saying that they had great results using HD media as ED in some host-sense IBM drives. I told them to check back with me in a couple of years as to the readability of those disks. I've still got one of the 20MB Brier floppy drives, though heaven knows why... It's funny--I routinely get HD 5.25" disks written on old DD CP/M machines that read just fine, by and large. And lots of WP 3.5" floppies (240K FM) written on HD media and never had run across one that couldn't be read. But ED on HD media seems like more of a hope than reality to me. --Chuck From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 08:19:24 2018 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 08:19:24 -0600 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: <161274b2532-1724-8d4ea@webjas-vad022.srv.aolmail.net> References: <161274b2532-1724-8d4ea@webjas-vad022.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:31 AM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > ah do they don't just collect just loose keyboards they 'snatch' > keyboards leaving the rest of the carcus to of the terminal to rot?? > > > > I suspect that the problem may be two-sided. Could be there are a fair number of people that stash an old computer and toss the keyboards thinking they can just use some off the shelf one later. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 24 08:39:40 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:39:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: eBay: PDP-11/34 chassis available Message-ID: <20180124143940.D635B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So this lot: https://www.ebay.com/itm//192436422371 claims to be an -11/04, but there are no boards in it. However... the first backplane (of two) is a DD11-P, which is the backplane for the /34 as well as the /04. And there are /34 CPU boards available on eBait at the moment. Pick up a pair (the seller will probably negotiate on price), add an M9301/M9312, and a DL11 or DL11-W (also available), and away you go. Noel From cube1 at charter.net Wed Jan 24 08:42:13 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 08:42:13 -0600 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: References: <20f186f1-2d46-6057-5dcc-1ed5f4e471b1@gmail.com> <72026a12-ed87-f77a-9d33-070c22012980@charter.net> Message-ID: <6bcd8b71-5ec7-999c-5d59-7c626f371696@charter.net> OK. Should have a link for you today or tomorrow. I want to do an MD5 checsum of all of it because there are a lot of duplicates. On 1/22/2018 10:57 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > sure thing. > we got boxed of tapes and about 100 esdi disks from the support development cluster I haven't > had time to do anything with > > also, i have lots of the last couple of revs of manuals up on bitsavers and there is a functional > Apollo emulator running in MAME > > > > On 1/21/18 7:16 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> I wasn't aware of that. I have a ton of Apollo QIC images. Shall I put >> them up on my Google Drive for you to grab? >> >> On 1/21/2018 1:50 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> CHM has an agreement with HP to host Apollo and 68K HP 9000 software legally. >>> >>> >>> On 1/21/18 11:42 AM, David Collins via cctalk wrote: >>>> The HP Computer Museum would be happy to host copies of any Apollo software if it can be imaged.. >>> >>> > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jan 24 09:05:09 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 10:05:09 -0500 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <00bc8198-5160-9475-f83a-923c2d30d119@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-01-23 11:40 PM, Ian Primus via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 12:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk > wrote: >> ?are the bane of my existence and should all rot in hell. >> >> Sorry, I just received an email from a ?keyboard enthusiast? who was looking for >> various IBM 327x keyboards and wanted to know if I could help him and I needed >> to vent a little. > > Ugh. Don't get me started. I collect terminals. Missing keyboards is a > perennial problem, but it's gotten WAY worse in recent years. I have > two terminals here that are missing the keyboards because some > "enthusiast" bought them out from under me during an eBay transaction. > > So, now I have an Infoton and an IBM 3101 here that are completely > worthless because the keyboards are missing. > > And I have no hope of ever finding replacements - especially for the > IBM 3101, because that's one of the ones the keyboard jerks really > seem to love because it's the older beam spring kind. Well, if it's universally held to be desirable then there's a chance of seeing one on a secondary market. But it probably therefore also be overpriced. Bloody wankers. Keyboard is the least interesting part of a system, I don't understand the fetishisation. --T > > Grr..... > From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 09:21:52 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 16:21:52 +0100 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: <00bc8198-5160-9475-f83a-923c2d30d119@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> <00bc8198-5160-9475-f83a-923c2d30d119@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 24 January 2018 at 16:05, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > Well, if it's universally held to be desirable then there's a chance of > seeing one on a secondary market. But it probably therefore also be > overpriced. There's that. The flipside is that there is considerable effort going into devising keyboard interfaces for retro keyboards to modern computers, and in principle, that could be reversed. > Bloody wankers. Keyboard is the least interesting part of a system, I > don't understand the fetishisation. Hmmm. I am a bit torn here. I don't want to defend them, but I am a sort of accidental keyboard collector myself. I hang out in some of the communities. The first PC I ever used was an actual PC, an IBM PC-XT, at university. It lived in a corner of a side room of the computer centre, standalone, unloved. All the "serious" "hackers" used DEC VT terminals on the uni VAXcluster. I played with it because it had the Infocom Hitchhikers' Guide game on it. And the PC knowledge gained thereby got me my 1st job and is why I am sitting here in Nuremberg not writing documentation at this precise moment today. My 1st ever job was an IBM dealer, and I got used to the IBM keyboards. I also worked on classic Macs and a tiny bit of IBM RS6000. So the 2nd job, an Amstrad dealer, came as a shock. Nasty keyboards. And of course they got much worse. So for 25y or so, I've been slowly accumulating a small stockpile of IBM Model Ms and Apple Extended 1 & 2 keyboards. I now have enough for life. Which means I can talk to the keyboard geeks. I don't pay for them -- mine are all discards and the computers were already gone. I sold most of my classic Macs when I left the UK and all went with a keyboard, usually an AppleDesign one. I sold a couple of isolated classic Apple keyboards but they didn't make much so now I don't bother -- I keep 'em and use 'em instead. But modern keyboards are almost universally horrid. They feel much the same as each other, nasty and spongy. So, you have 2 choices: [1] Buy an expensive modern mechanical keyboard [2] Buy an old vintage mechanical keyboard Either way leads down a rabbit hole into a whole world. But the vintage ones... well, people buy something cheap, like it, get bored, get something else, find it is markedly different, buy another, find it's different _again_ and that's it, they're hooked. I'm fairly immune to this, as I'm old and have strong preferences already -- firstly, IBM Model Ms or early Apple ADB mechanicals, and secondly, not spending much money. The older and rarer you go, the more expensive the machine was when new. Thus the higher quality the keyboard was. Thus the better it feels, by and large. So that leads to a vicious cycle of seeking out older, rarer keyboards. And once you get used to weird old ones, then they become fun, so people get into them for their own merits. I'm aghast that this has now led to complete vintage systems being gutted and discarded for just the keyboard. I agree with the ivory-poacher simile. The only thing I can see countering it would be a trend of companies making _good_ modern mechanical boards, especially with weird layouts and USB ports. It might satisfy those who just want something _different_ and don't need it to be old. But I have played with another list-member's Unicomp "Model M" and it was nothing like as good as a real IBM. It felt cheap and nasty by comparison, although the key action was good. I've also tried a couple of mechanical gamers' keyboards and they weren't great either. I fear commoditisation and mass-production means that real vintage quality might be unattainable today without making the results more expensive than vintage ones. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jan 24 09:31:56 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 16:31:56 +0100 (CET) Subject: Interest in Teac FD235J drives and FC-1 boards? In-Reply-To: References: <709f112f-5caa-a536-e03e-045d49ef09a8@sydex.com> , Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jan 2018, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > I wouldn't mind a couple of FC-1 but I bet the price would be much more > than I can afford. Speaking of the FC-1 boards: it appears that they support different sector sizes, as well as MFM and FM encoding. How do you program this? Christian From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jan 24 09:32:49 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 10:32:49 -0500 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> <00bc8198-5160-9475-f83a-923c2d30d119@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <212783c4-bd30-f34b-4d18-9b571ba3514f@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-01-24 10:21 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 24 January 2018 at 16:05, Toby Thain via cctalk > wrote: > >> Well, if it's universally held to be desirable then there's a chance of >> seeing one on a secondary market. But it probably therefore also be >> overpriced. > > There's that. The flipside is that there is considerable effort going > into devising keyboard interfaces for retro keyboards to modern > computers, and in principle, that could be reversed. We joke that they have no qualms about Dremeling them out and sticking Raspberry Pis inside, making them worthless for the original systems. --T > >> Bloody wankers. Keyboard is the least interesting part of a system, I >> don't understand the fetishisation. > > Hmmm. I am a bit torn here. > ... From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 10:02:59 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 10:02:59 -0600 Subject: Interest in Teac FD235J drives and FC-1 boards? In-Reply-To: References: <709f112f-5caa-a536-e03e-045d49ef09a8@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 10:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > 2.8M runs at 1,000,000 bits per second. > Such controllers exist, but are not very common. > Can Catweasel/kryoflux handle that data transfer rate? Looks like no on the KF: https://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?t=198 The post is from 2011, but as it's a hardware limitation and the KF is still the same hardware as when it was released, I'd guess the answer is still no. As someone in that thread points out, there was no commercial (read: "protected") software on 2.88 (is that really so?), so using a "standard" controller, if you happen to have one, is fine. In my case, I think I have a 486-era IBM that supports the ED format. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 24 10:18:38 2018 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 17:18:38 +0100 Subject: HP 1000 system in Europe Message-ID: <006401d3952e$fef2de00$fcd89a00$@xs4all.nl> I'm selling one of my HP 1000 systems to make space.. It's on ebay, item: 263456857154 Located in the Netherlands -Rik From cube1 at charter.net Wed Jan 24 10:31:22 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 10:31:22 -0600 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: References: <20f186f1-2d46-6057-5dcc-1ed5f4e471b1@gmail.com> <72026a12-ed87-f77a-9d33-070c22012980@charter.net> Message-ID: <52d4b1ac-35ab-8c4d-8f64-9bd1c35dafa3@charter.net> Al, the tape images have been uploaded to: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AbOOHQjssPPEterpJLCP6A3S50K97rp_ Which is a subdirectory (bits/Apollo) in https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU Unfortunately, my Aegis SR9.7 had errors (I had forgotten that). As the readme explains, I read each one twice where I could (once on an actual Apollo, and a second time on Linux), and compared them, and then took one set (SR10.2, I think), and installed them on the MESS (now apparently subsumed within MAME - I did this work several years ago) simulator to make sure the process actually worked. JRJ On 1/22/2018 10:57 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > sure thing. > we got boxed of tapes and about 100 esdi disks from the support development cluster I haven't > had time to do anything with > > also, i have lots of the last couple of revs of manuals up on bitsavers and there is a functional > Apollo emulator running in MAME > > > > On 1/21/18 7:16 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> I wasn't aware of that. I have a ton of Apollo QIC images. Shall I put >> them up on my Google Drive for you to grab? >> >> On 1/21/2018 1:50 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> CHM has an agreement with HP to host Apollo and 68K HP 9000 software legally. >>> >>> >>> On 1/21/18 11:42 AM, David Collins via cctalk wrote: >>>> The HP Computer Museum would be happy to host copies of any Apollo software if it can be imaged.. >>> >>> > > From harper at secureoutcomes.net Wed Jan 24 10:33:20 2018 From: harper at secureoutcomes.net (Jack Harper) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:33:20 -0700 Subject: SCSI Controller Hanging... In-Reply-To: References: <20180123163319.DF1084E7F8@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20180124163334.3B82727713@mx1.ezwind.net> Hello Plamen - I use the SCSI controller that is built into the MVME177 transition module. No, when I RESET the system, I just press the RESET button on the processor board - usually when it is hung with my software. On this system, I only code in 68K assembly and so I do see the "occasional" hang :) Is the "SCSI reset option" part of the 68K/BUG RESET command? In my documentation - and I easily may not have the latest documentation - I only see RESET options to force a COLD or WARM start on hardware RESET. The documentation that I have also cautions: "...may cause the disk controller to be out of phase with respect to the disk configuration tables in memory", which certainly makes sense. However, I do not modify any of those tables from system default. I appreciate your input. Regards, Jack Evergreen, Colorado At 11:57 AM 1/23/2018, Plamen Mihaylov wrote: >What SCSI controller are? you using - MVME320, 327 or 328 ? >Do you reset the MVME177 board using RESET >command from 177bug> along with SCSI bus reset? option? > >Best regards, >Plamen > > >On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 6:33 PM, Jack Harper via >cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >Greetings to the List from the Snowy Rocky Mountains. > >Beautiful clear sunny day here at +9F :) > >The SCSI controller on the 68K development >system (VMEbus) that I have cobbled together >occasionally hangs after I reset one of the >processor boards (there are four MVME177-005 68060 boards in the VME rack). > >The hang then happens when my software touches >the SCSI drives via the ROM'd 68K/Bug I/O >primitives and the hang will not go away even >after another reset until I cycle power. > >I have never before dealt with SCSI as a >programmer - does this sound like something is configured incorrectly? > >There is not much to configure. > >I point out that I am not certain that I have >the termination resistors correct. > > >Thoughts? > >I appreciate any advice. > > >Regards, > >Jack >Evergreen Colorado > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jack Harper, President >Secure Outcomes Inc >2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 >Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA > >303.670.8375 >303.670.3750? (fax) > >http://www.secureoutcomes.net >for Product Info. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper, President Secure Outcomes Inc 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA 303.670.8375 303.670.3750 (fax) http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 10:54:47 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 17:54:47 +0100 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: <212783c4-bd30-f34b-4d18-9b571ba3514f@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> <00bc8198-5160-9475-f83a-923c2d30d119@telegraphics.com.au> <212783c4-bd30-f34b-4d18-9b571ba3514f@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 24 January 2018 at 16:32, Toby Thain wrote: > > We joke that they have no qualms about Dremeling them out and sticking > Raspberry Pis inside, making them worthless for the original systems. I hate that. I have told at least 1 friend to think about WTF he was doing when he proposed this. I don't think he understood. The perils of the correlation of techie interest and being on the autistic spectrum. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 11:09:18 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 12:09:18 -0500 Subject: eBay: PDP-11/34 chassis available In-Reply-To: <20180124143940.D635B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180124143940.D635B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Interesting, I ended up with an 11/34A board set from a scrapped-out machine. I tested it in a friend's chassis, fully working, passes all relevant XXDP tests, includes the floating point option. Don't know if I'll bid on this one or not. If someone here gets it, feel free to contact me about a known-good board set. Thanks, Jonathan On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 9:39 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > So this lot: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm//192436422371 > > claims to be an -11/04, but there are no boards in it. However... the first > backplane (of two) is a DD11-P, which is the backplane for the /34 as well > as > the /04. And there are /34 CPU boards available on eBait at the moment. > Pick > up a pair (the seller will probably negotiate on price), add an > M9301/M9312, > and a DL11 or DL11-W (also available), and away you go. > > Noel > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 24 11:41:29 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:41:29 -0800 Subject: Apollo Software In-Reply-To: <6bcd8b71-5ec7-999c-5d59-7c626f371696@charter.net> References: <20f186f1-2d46-6057-5dcc-1ed5f4e471b1@gmail.com> <72026a12-ed87-f77a-9d33-070c22012980@charter.net> <6bcd8b71-5ec7-999c-5d59-7c626f371696@charter.net> Message-ID: <47d6489e-d946-9f70-9c61-9c2bd8ed9c5c@bitsavers.org> If you still have the disks, scanning the labels would be a good thing On 1/24/18 6:42 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > OK. Should have a link for you today or tomorrow. I want to do an MD5 > checsum of all of it because there are a lot of duplicates. > > On 1/22/2018 10:57 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> sure thing. >> we got boxed of tapes and about 100 esdi disks from the support development cluster I haven't >> had time to do anything with >> >> also, i have lots of the last couple of revs of manuals up on bitsavers and there is a functional >> Apollo emulator running in MAME >> >> >> >> On 1/21/18 7:16 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >>> I wasn't aware of that. I have a ton of Apollo QIC images. Shall I put >>> them up on my Google Drive for you to grab? >>> >>> On 1/21/2018 1:50 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>>> CHM has an agreement with HP to host Apollo and 68K HP 9000 software legally. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1/21/18 11:42 AM, David Collins via cctalk wrote: >>>>> The HP Computer Museum would be happy to host copies of any Apollo software if it can be imaged.. >>>> >>>> >> >> From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 24 11:45:19 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:45:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interest in Teac FD235J drives and FC-1 boards? In-Reply-To: References: <709f112f-5caa-a536-e03e-045d49ef09a8@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> 2.8M runs at 1,000,000 bits per second. >> Such controllers exist, but are not very common. >> Can Catweasel/kryoflux handle that data transfer rate? On Wed, 24 Jan 2018, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > Looks like no on the KF: https://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?t=198 > The post is from 2011, but as it's a hardware limitation and the KF is > still the same hardware as when it was released, I'd guess the answer > is still no. > As someone in that thread points out, there was no commercial (read: > "protected") software on 2.88 (is that really so?), so using a > "standard" controller, if you happen to have one, is fine. In my > case, I think I have a 486-era IBM that supports the ED format. Does ImageDisk or Teledisk support it? If so, then with the ED controller and one of these drives from Chuck, you could image things such as the "4 Meg" floppies from NeXT. (4M is the UNFORMATTED capacity of the 2.8M disk, and NeXT marketing thought that "4M" sounded better than the "2.8M" formatted capacity) BTW, it is 2.8M. It is NEVER 2.88M unless you REDEFINE "Megabyte" to be 1,024,000 bytes. What moron does THAT? (not the 1,000,000 used by marketing, nor the 1,048,576 used in computers (AKA MebiByte)) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 24 11:47:11 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:47:11 -0800 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> <00bc8198-5160-9475-f83a-923c2d30d119@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <3a86cbb6-fe12-04fb-acb6-61ae1b1a8963@bitsavers.org> On 1/24/18 7:21 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > So, you have 2 choices: > > [1] Buy an expensive modern mechanical keyboard > Unless they are REALLY expensive, modern mechanical keyboard keycaps suck. For some reason, they think the classic fonts are ugly and replace them with REALLY ugly ones, or light all the keys or... I bought a Nixeus one, and had to spend another $100 for a set of black double-shot keycaps that ALMOST look as good as the classic Sanserif ones. But.. this was for a Mac so I ended up with having to keep the old "cmd" keys, which are slightly the wrong height and have the legends worn off (not double-shot) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 24 11:52:02 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:52:02 -0800 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: <94082811-4afb-aced-a8cb-ed7d2bb1290a@bitsavers.org> References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <94082811-4afb-aced-a8cb-ed7d2bb1290a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: More pics of the 3mbit transceiver, cable and pics of a 10mbit TCL transceiver (the original 10mbit one) are up now On 1/23/18 8:10 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > there are pictures of the transceiver w/o the vampire tap on bitsavers > under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/ethernet_3mb/ From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jan 24 12:23:49 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 11:23:49 -0700 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <94082811-4afb-aced-a8cb-ed7d2bb1290a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5c26beab-7c39-2a03-2227-2b90237c9791@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 01/24/2018 10:52 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > More pics of the 3mbit transceiver, cable and pics of a 10mbit TCL > transceiver (the original 10mbit one) are up now Thank you for the pictures. I really like the idea of the BNC modification. I think that would make the transceivers slightly more usable. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 24 12:28:38 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 18:28:38 +0000 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> <610B0459-0E17-461A-8D68-68811CFDF644@lunar-tokyo.net> <8b32091c-d5df-5693-49c1-4860c20e706a@sydex.com> , Message-ID: Sorry I was so late on this thread. I that it would be interesting to note that I had a neighbor that was a scrapper. He'd used a jig and a band saw to remove the tantalum capacitors and ICs from the boards. One day he had a number of STD buss boards I happened to notice one of the parts he was stripping. It was a 80187 co-processor. I told him that even if he melted this part down, it would only have 5 cents worth of gold in it. At that time they were selling on ebay for $100+ ea. I told him that it wouldn't hurt to look up some of the going prices for some of the chips on ebay. He had 10 of these parts. He told me that it wasn't worth his time to look these up. A different mind set than me. How many Mac's do you see on ebay with no keyboard? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ian Finder via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 11:37:14 AM To: Daniel Seagraves; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Keyboard "enthusiasts" On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jan 23, 2018, at 12:15 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Really, is this any worse than the gold bugs scrapping whole systems for > > the prospective precious metal content? > > It seems worse to me because the gold bugs are ignorant and greedy but the > keyboardists are ?computer people? and should know better. > > Also as far as I know the gold bugs don?t deliberately target rare systems > for their rarity. > > Thanks, Daniel, for this succinct differentiation! -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 24 12:38:36 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 10:38:36 -0800 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: <5c26beab-7c39-2a03-2227-2b90237c9791@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <94082811-4afb-aced-a8cb-ed7d2bb1290a@bitsavers.org> <5c26beab-7c39-2a03-2227-2b90237c9791@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 1/24/18 10:23 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I think that would make the transceivers slightly more usable. It makes them a LOT more usable :-) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 24 12:42:22 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 10:42:22 -0800 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> <610B0459-0E17-461A-8D68-68811CFDF644@lunar-tokyo.net> <8b32091c-d5df-5693-49c1-4860c20e706a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9b8b3c54-937b-18d7-1289-a77f652ef8b2@bitsavers.org> On 1/24/18 10:28 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > How many Mac's do you see on ebay with no keyboard? Lots A keyboard/mouse seems to add $100 to the price And there lots of keyboards with no Macs, especially the second-generation extended ADB ones. If there didn't seem to be a glut of them on the market, I'd list the NIB ones I have. From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jan 24 12:42:27 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 12:42:27 -0600 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1a0301d39543$15b112b0$41133810$@com> I had no idea you wanted one! I just sold 1 in superb shape, but yes, the fellow did pay a fortune for them. He is in Canada. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian Primus via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 10:40 PM To: Guy Sotomayor; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Keyboard "enthusiasts" On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 12:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > ?are the bane of my existence and should all rot in hell. > > Sorry, I just received an email from a ?keyboard enthusiast? who was > looking for various IBM 327x keyboards and wanted to know if I could > help him and I needed to vent a little. Ugh. Don't get me started. I collect terminals. Missing keyboards is a perennial problem, but it's gotten WAY worse in recent years. I have two terminals here that are missing the keyboards because some "enthusiast" bought them out from under me during an eBay transaction. So, now I have an Infoton and an IBM 3101 here that are completely worthless because the keyboards are missing. And I have no hope of ever finding replacements - especially for the IBM 3101, because that's one of the ones the keyboard jerks really seem to love because it's the older beam spring kind. Grr..... --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 24 12:43:35 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 10:43:35 -0800 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: References: <20180123155117.7231118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <94082811-4afb-aced-a8cb-ed7d2bb1290a@bitsavers.org> <5c26beab-7c39-2a03-2227-2b90237c9791@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <3101990b-4bfc-80f5-0416-9ea24e03b8d4@bitsavers.org> And if anyone has any of the early TCL transceivers, check the tantalums on the power supply input. I've had many failures of them. On 1/24/18 10:38 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/24/18 10:23 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> I think that would make the transceivers slightly more usable. > > It makes them a LOT more usable :-) > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 24 12:43:41 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 10:43:41 -0800 Subject: Interest in Teac FD235J drives and FC-1 boards? In-Reply-To: References: <709f112f-5caa-a536-e03e-045d49ef09a8@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 01/24/2018 09:45 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > BTW, it is 2.8M.? It is NEVER 2.88M unless you REDEFINE "Megabyte" to be > 1,024,000 bytes.? What moron does THAT?? (not the 1,000,000 used by > marketing, nor the 1,048,576 used in computers (AKA MebiByte)) Well, 2.95MB or 2.81MiB. That's why I don't use the "B" when I talk about these things. The unit used for 1.44M or 2.88M is a work of creative fiction. But if you talk about "unformatted" capacity, which is perhaps a better descriptive term for the medium and drive, nobody knows what you're talking about. We all make certain concessions. So, a "360K" disk can easily hold 400K and a 720K is twice the capacity of a 360K. Obviously a 14400K must be 1.44M...and so on... Used to be that numbers meant something. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 24 12:50:41 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 10:50:41 -0800 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1afc9226-1fd2-35e8-d493-68a074b19efb@bitsavers.org> On 1/23/18 8:40 PM, Ian Primus via cctalk wrote: > Ugh. Don't get me started. I collect terminals. Missing keyboards is a > perennial problem, but it's gotten WAY worse in recent years. I went a little crazy and started doing the same in 2017 to dump the firmware for MAME. There are now several working there because of that. I ended up scrapping most of them in the fall because they were taking up too much space, and there was no chance of ever finding keyboards for them (esp the Qume ones). I bought some Wyse kbs thinking I'd make a converter box, but then just decided what's the point. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jan 24 13:03:21 2018 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 14:03:21 -0500 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> <610B0459-0E17-461A-8D68-68811CFDF644@lunar-tokyo.net> <8b32091c-d5df-5693-49c1-4860c20e706a@sydex.com> , Message-ID: It's not just on ebay. I asked fellow collectors on 68kmla about their machine to keyboard/mouse ratio and they all had more machines then keyboards. Sooner or later machines will be useless because there are not enough keyboards and mice to go around. While I keep stacks of mac keyboards and mice in the garage and a stack of AT and IBM Model M keyboards in the house I have very few USB keyboards for more modern machines in my collection (mostly because by the time USB keyboards were common they were cheap junk). Most of the PS/2 keyboards made were also junk but I kept a few that were machine specific. I just use a KVM with a USB to PS/2 adapter and a Model M keyboard plus USB Microsoft Optical mouse (optical mice are better then the old ones with balls). I even keep old ball mice around for that vintage feel and to match my systems (and those do wear out). Amiga mice for one are pretty hard to find especially the A1000 models with the angled plug. I don't have a problem with people stealing keyboards and junking systems when in all likelyhood the whole thing would get scrapped anyway. Many of the local machines I have saved over the years were just too heavy to ship and worthless at the time so they would have ended up in a dump anyway. How many terminal collectors are there now compared to ten years ago or 20 when terminal were more common? As keyboards are going up in value I suspect that they just keep getting traded around kind of like computers themselves (people buy them get bored and flip or trade them). TZ -----Original Message----- From: dwight via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 1:28 PM To: Ian Finder ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Keyboard "enthusiasts" How many Mac's do you see on ebay with no keyboard? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ian Finder via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 11:37:14 AM To: Daniel Seagraves; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Keyboard "enthusiasts" On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jan 23, 2018, at 12:15 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Really, is this any worse than the gold bugs scrapping whole systems for > > the prospective precious metal content? > > It seems worse to me because the gold bugs are ignorant and greedy but the > keyboardists are ?computer people? and should know better. > > Also as far as I know the gold bugs don?t deliberately target rare systems > for their rarity. > > Thanks, Daniel, for this succinct differentiation! -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 13:06:56 2018 From: ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com (Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 14:06:56 -0500 Subject: IBM 3101 keyboard - was Re: Keyboard "enthusiasts" Message-ID: Well, let me know if you find another one. Or, if anyone else has one they'd be willing to part with for reasonable money. The regular 3278 type keyboards won't work on an IBM 3101 - and those are a lot more common. The one I need looks like this: https://i.imgur.com/1Cz8hMi.jpg It has the configuration switches to set the baud rate and such under that panel at the top. Without this particular keyboard, the terminal I have is useless - you can't even have it just receive/display data, since the configuration switches are in the keyboard. On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 1:42 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > I had no idea you wanted one! I just sold 1 in superb shape, but yes, the fellow did pay a fortune for them. He is in Canada. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian Primus via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 10:40 PM > To: Guy Sotomayor; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Keyboard "enthusiasts" > > On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 12:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >> ?are the bane of my existence and should all rot in hell. >> >> Sorry, I just received an email from a ?keyboard enthusiast? who was >> looking for various IBM 327x keyboards and wanted to know if I could >> help him and I needed to vent a little. > > Ugh. Don't get me started. I collect terminals. Missing keyboards is a perennial problem, but it's gotten WAY worse in recent years. I have two terminals here that are missing the keyboards because some "enthusiast" bought them out from under me during an eBay transaction. > > So, now I have an Infoton and an IBM 3101 here that are completely worthless because the keyboards are missing. > > And I have no hope of ever finding replacements - especially for the IBM 3101, because that's one of the ones the keyboard jerks really seem to love because it's the older beam spring kind. > > Grr..... > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 24 13:24:35 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 14:24:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" Message-ID: <20180124192435.18CE018C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: TeoZ > mouse (optical mice are better then the old ones with balls). I even > keep old ball mice around ... and those do wear out) Huh? I've got old ball mice I've been using for years; they don't wear out. The wires do get flaky after a long period of use (at which point I stop using them - easier to switch than to chop an inch off the wire - the issue is where it goes into the mouse), and you do have to clean them regularly, but other than that... Noel From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jan 24 13:36:31 2018 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 14:36:31 -0500 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: <20180124192435.18CE018C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180124192435.18CE018C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <391443C9D2B1427F928C309610FBF81B@teoPC> Switches for the buttons go bad, the rollers can corrode making for not so smooth movement and the rollers need cleaned. Opticals either work fine or they don't work at all (some early MS mice tended to die and had a recall). -----Original Message----- From: Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 2:24 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Keyboard "enthusiasts" > From: TeoZ > mouse (optical mice are better then the old ones with balls). I even > keep old ball mice around ... and those do wear out) Huh? I've got old ball mice I've been using for years; they don't wear out. The wires do get flaky after a long period of use (at which point I stop using them - easier to switch than to chop an inch off the wire - the issue is where it goes into the mouse), and you do have to clean them regularly, but other than that... Noel --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 13:50:45 2018 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 14:50:45 -0500 Subject: IBM 3101 keyboard - was Re: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ian, I have a keyboard that looks similar but it's in several pieces because I am currently in the process of restoring it. The barrel plate (the plate that holds the beam spring switches in place) and exterior needs paint. This was very rusty and in rough shape when I got it but I'd love to see it in use (if I can't find a 3101 terminal). I also took the beam spring switches apart and cleaned them up. It is in need of final restoration but I can't paint until summer now (or get it sent out). Send me a message off-list and I'll take some pics. Are there variations to the 3101 terminal? I'm not sure this particular keyboard is the right one you need but if you have the IBM part number, I can check. I am not the Canadian guy that Cindy sold those keyboards to but I can only imagine what they went for. I now tend to buy these IBM keyboards first (when they happen to come up) and match up the terminal later. Doing it the other way around just doesn't work any more. I think this particular model is sought after because it has the beam spring key switches and is "slim line" compared to most other beam spring keyboards. It also has enough keys to have a decent PC layout, unfortunately. Santo On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Ian Primus via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Well, let me know if you find another one. Or, if anyone else has one > they'd be willing to part with for reasonable money. The regular 3278 > type keyboards won't work on an IBM 3101 - and those are a lot more > common. The one I need looks like this: > https://i.imgur.com/1Cz8hMi.jpg > > It has the configuration switches to set the baud rate and such under > that panel at the top. > > Without this particular keyboard, the terminal I have is useless - you > can't even have it just receive/display data, since the configuration > switches are in the keyboard. > > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Wed Jan 24 15:05:55 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 13:05:55 -0800 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: References: <20180123201901.9DF3918C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <74F041A8-E63D-4CCA-BBD5-E808FEC614B7@shaw.ca> On 2018-Jan-23, at 12:27 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > The Ethernet spec says that the cable OD is in the range .365 to .415 inch, which is 9.27 to 10.54 mm. The nominal OD of RG-8/U is .405 inches, or 10.28 mm, which is within spec for Ethernet cable. > > One place where the two cable specs differ is in the velocity factor, 0.66 for RG-8/U and 0.77 for Ethernet cable. That relates to the dielectric -- solid polyethylene for RG-8/U and foamed material (unspecified) for Ethernet. Also, Ethernet requires a solid inner conductor (for the tap) while RG-8/U may come stranded. (Maybe only in some variants, I'm not sure.) And there are the stripes, of course, but those have no electrical significance. You can use a tape measure if you don't have the stripes. I was attempting some calculations to see if I could derive the 2.5M transceiver spacing and was wondering what the velocity factor for the cable was, as it should affect the transceiver spacing in theory. I haven't seen any pictures during this thread of the transceivers we used with the 10MB yellow hose - heavy gauge metal boxes about 3" * 4" * 1" with N connectors. I remember piling up the 3 ft diameter loops of yellow coax in the machine room where you had a bunch of machines together and didn't need the cable lengths between them, until the DEC DELNI (ethernet AUI hub) cleaned up that mess. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 24 16:11:22 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 17:11:22 -0500 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: <74F041A8-E63D-4CCA-BBD5-E808FEC614B7@shaw.ca> References: <20180123201901.9DF3918C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <74F041A8-E63D-4CCA-BBD5-E808FEC614B7@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <4994FBEE-53C5-4174-B0E9-64E97704F3F9@comcast.net> > On Jan 24, 2018, at 4:05 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > On 2018-Jan-23, at 12:27 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> The Ethernet spec says that the cable OD is in the range .365 to .415 inch, which is 9.27 to 10.54 mm. The nominal OD of RG-8/U is .405 inches, or 10.28 mm, which is within spec for Ethernet cable. >> >> One place where the two cable specs differ is in the velocity factor, 0.66 for RG-8/U and 0.77 for Ethernet cable. That relates to the dielectric -- solid polyethylene for RG-8/U and foamed material (unspecified) for Ethernet. Also, Ethernet requires a solid inner conductor (for the tap) while RG-8/U may come stranded. (Maybe only in some variants, I'm not sure.) And there are the stripes, of course, but those have no electrical significance. You can use a tape measure if you don't have the stripes. > > I was attempting some calculations to see if I could derive the 2.5M transceiver spacing and was wondering what the velocity factor for the cable was, as it should affect the transceiver spacing in theory. The velocity factor is specified as 0.77. The Manchester encoding of 10 Mb Ethernet means the dominant frequency is 10 MHz, which in the coax would have a wavelength of 23.1 meters (0.77 * c / 10e6). So the 2.5 meter spacing is 0.1082 wavelengths, i.e., a number chosen NOT be be a round value. If you look at the integer multiples of that value you'll find hardly any that are close to an integer; the first one I see is 37x which is 4.004. This ensures that there is very little in the way of coincident reflections. There are lots of other spacings that would work, for example 2.0 meters is also a decent choice -- all that is required is "pick a spacing such that nearly all the tap points are not round multiples of 1/2 wavelength of 10 MHz apart". 2.5 seems a fine choice given the max cable length (500 meters) and station count (100); there is no real benefit in picking a smaller value. If you're using actual RG-8/U (VF = 0.66) then the answers come out different, of course. paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 16:18:25 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 14:18:25 -0800 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: <74F041A8-E63D-4CCA-BBD5-E808FEC614B7@shaw.ca> References: <20180123201901.9DF3918C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <74F041A8-E63D-4CCA-BBD5-E808FEC614B7@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 1:05 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > I haven't seen any pictures during this thread of the transceivers we used with the 10MB yellow hose - heavy gauge metal boxes about 3" * 4" * 1" with N connectors. I have a 3COM 3C100 transceiver that must have come along with some old Sun servers I acquired a few years back. It's a heavy black box about 4" x 5" x 1" with two N connectors and the 15-pin AUI connector. I opened it up just now to look inside to see why it is so heavy. The whole thing is potted inside with a solid black compound so there is nothing to see. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 24 16:26:22 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 14:26:22 -0800 Subject: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?) In-Reply-To: <74F041A8-E63D-4CCA-BBD5-E808FEC614B7@shaw.ca> References: <20180123201901.9DF3918C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <74F041A8-E63D-4CCA-BBD5-E808FEC614B7@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 1/24/18 1:05 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > I haven't seen any pictures during this thread of the transceivers we used with the 10MB yellow hose - heavy gauge metal boxes about 3" * 4" * 1" with N connectors. I remember piling up the 3 ft diameter loops of yellow coax in the machine room where you had a bunch of machines together and didn't need the cable lengths between them, until the DEC DELNI (ethernet AUI hub) cleaned up that mess. > likely 3Com http://www.piercefuller.com/library/10126.html ones with vampire taps http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102625376 is the dec H4000 Cabletron ST-500 http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102642433 http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102677160 also was availble with N connectors http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102682788 dec H4005 From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 16:35:25 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 14:35:25 -0800 Subject: Interest in Teac FD235J drives and FC-1 boards? In-Reply-To: References: <709f112f-5caa-a536-e03e-045d49ef09a8@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Does ImageDisk or Teledisk support it? > If so, then with the ED controller and one of these drives from Chuck, you > could image things such as the "4 Meg" floppies from NeXT. (4M is the > UNFORMATTED capacity of the 2.8M disk, and NeXT marketing thought that "4M" > sounded better than the "2.8M" formatted capacity) > The ImageDisk 1.18 source code is available to inspect to answer the question. If there is something special that software needs to do to select a 1000K bps data rate I don't see anything in the ImageDisk code which does that. What does software need to do to select the 1000K bps data rate for 2.8M mode? http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm imd.c: unsigned Mtext[] = { // Translate Mode%3 to actual data rate 500, 300, 250 }; /* * Initialize data transfer mode (rate and density) * and update status display. */ void initmode(void) { unsigned x; Mfm = (Mode / 3) ? 0x40 : 0x00; out(FDC+5, x = Mode % 3); w_gotoxy(3, 0, swin); w_printf(swin, "%3uk %cD", Mtext[x], Mfm ? 'D' : 'S'); } From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jan 24 16:53:22 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 16:53:22 -0600 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: <1afc9226-1fd2-35e8-d493-68a074b19efb@bitsavers.org> References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> <1afc9226-1fd2-35e8-d493-68a074b19efb@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1ac201d39566$2346ed50$69d4c7f0$@com> Wyse 60 keyboards work out of the box as USB with a converter sold by Orihalcon on ebay. So do all IBM terminals with an 8 pin connector or any other IBM terminal keyboard (but not beamsprings). The converters cost about $35-40 each. I use them to test all the terminal boards that I sell. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 12:51 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Keyboard "enthusiasts" On 1/23/18 8:40 PM, Ian Primus via cctalk wrote: > Ugh. Don't get me started. I collect terminals. Missing keyboards is a > perennial problem, but it's gotten WAY worse in recent years. I went a little crazy and started doing the same in 2017 to dump the firmware for MAME. There are now several working there because of that. I ended up scrapping most of them in the fall because they were taking up too much space, and there was no chance of ever finding keyboards for them (esp the Qume ones). I bought some Wyse kbs thinking I'd make a converter box, but then just decided what's the point. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jan 24 17:05:07 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 17:05:07 -0600 Subject: Televideo keyboards Message-ID: <1ac301d39567$c76d8550$56488ff0$@com> I am clearing these out of my stock: 4 are beige, with no PN on the back. They have a small RJ9 type connector. 3 are missing one or more caps. 4 are dark on top, and beige on the back. There is no PN. These have the save telephone style connector. All are complete. These have not been tested or cleaned. I would love ro send all 8 of these to 1 person J Pics can be seen here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1GvCajMJk1EeSLjpGnl4LsGbJPH6l-B2H?usp =sharing Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 24 17:05:38 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 15:05:38 -0800 Subject: Keyboard "enthusiasts" In-Reply-To: <1ac201d39566$2346ed50$69d4c7f0$@com> References: <1CF43E3D-0998-49F2-ADC8-F658C9B9A3C9@shiresoft.com> <1afc9226-1fd2-35e8-d493-68a074b19efb@bitsavers.org> <1ac201d39566$2346ed50$69d4c7f0$@com> Message-ID: <5e03fc88-7d8d-412f-4618-0bca70157776@bitsavers.org> On 1/24/18 2:53 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > Wyse 60 keyboards work out of the box as USB with a converter sold by Orihalcon on ebay. I was going to convert a Wyse keyboard to something that would work to replace the missing keyboards from terminals. It was easier just to throw them out. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 24 17:07:59 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 15:07:59 -0800 Subject: Televideo keyboards In-Reply-To: <1ac301d39567$c76d8550$56488ff0$@com> References: <1ac301d39567$c76d8550$56488ff0$@com> Message-ID: <9ad889c7-0ab1-781b-0443-16520d532e9b@bitsavers.org> On 1/24/18 3:05 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > I am clearing these out of my stock: > > 4 are beige, with no PN on the back. They have a small RJ9 type connector. 3 > are missing one or more caps. > > 4 are dark on top, and beige on the back. There is no PN. These have the > save telephone style connector. All are complete. TVI 955 http://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/File:TeleVideo_955_251417402772-4.jpg From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 24 17:17:23 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 15:17:23 -0800 Subject: Interest in Teac FD235J drives and FC-1 boards? In-Reply-To: References: <709f112f-5caa-a536-e03e-045d49ef09a8@sydex.com> Message-ID: <170ea7f3-c116-4af8-7b14-4e9ed28ad030@sydex.com> On 01/24/2018 02:35 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Does ImageDisk or Teledisk support it? >> If so, then with the ED controller and one of these drives from Chuck, you >> could image things such as the "4 Meg" floppies from NeXT. (4M is the >> UNFORMATTED capacity of the 2.8M disk, and NeXT marketing thought that "4M" >> sounded better than the "2.8M" formatted capacity) >> > > The ImageDisk 1.18 source code is available to inspect to answer the question. > > If there is something special that software needs to do to select a > 1000K bps data rate I don't see anything in the ImageDisk code which > does that. What does software need to do to select the 1000K bps data > rate for 2.8M mode? Yes, the intel 82077 datasheet should tell you all you need. One aspect is that if you're operating in 1Mb/sec mode, you need to set perpendicular mode in addition to setting the 1M data rate, so not altogether straightforward. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 17:46:18 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 17:46:18 -0600 Subject: Microvax II 'primer'? In-Reply-To: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d618708-4987-74fa-b59f-3d71559634fd@gmail.com> On 01/21/2018 01:25 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I hurt) a > Microvax II from another list member yesterday. OK, the top PSU of the pair in this machine appears to be healthy. The bottom one, however, sits at around 2.5V on both the +5V and +12V outputs. That's without any cards, and the card-cage fan / temperature sensor unplugged, i.e. just with my dummy loads in place, so it looks like that PSU has issues (oh, and I tried decoupling the PSU from the backplane and loading it via the drive connector, so it doesn't appear to be a backplane issue). I expect it's fixable, but I'm unsure what the system may have done at the point it originally failed, given that it was responsible for both the card-cage fan and the temperature sensor - hopefully it didn't sit there for hours with no card cooling, no overheat sensor, and with power applied to [at least some of] the cards via the still-working PSU. Jules From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 12:38:55 2018 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 13:38:55 -0500 Subject: More Alto remarks Message-ID: I had forgotten about OrBit. According to this very nice document: http://xeroxalto.computerhistory.org/Indigo/Spruce/documents/.orbitguide.press!1.pdf ... the Orbit hardware was 4 cards in the Alto II backplane. As I recall, the SLOT interface was only 1 card; it was connected to a slower speed printer. The only modification to the Alto: wire wrapping the task signals (don't ask me how I know...) And yes, I agree, only the high bandwidth I/O used tasks. The use of tasks and "time sharing" the Alto processor innards is one of the Alto's real treats. From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 02:52:39 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 00:52:39 -0800 Subject: New DEC items from Sellam's collection for sale Message-ID: Hey DEC-heads! I added some more boards to my DEC list: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61371-Sellam-s-DEC-Hardware-Software-and-Peripherals-Sales-Thread&p=496644#post496644 Please inquire directly via e-mail to for fastest response. Thanks! Sellam From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 17:06:56 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 17:06:56 -0600 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault Message-ID: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> Hi all, I mentioned this in the thread where I'd asked about basic Microvax II info, but it may have got lost in traffic... The machine's H7260 PSU is somewhat unwell - one of the internal +5/12V supplies appears to be healthy, but the other has outputs which are sitting at around 2.5V (both on the 5V and 12V rails) under a test load. Initial questions... 1) Are schematics are available online? I couldn't find them (either under the DEC p/n or the Astec AA13010 one), but perhaps they're buried in schematics for a specific DEC machine somewhere. 2) Upon initial glance, the 'first' board of the three in the PSU module appears to be a pair of control relays, bridge rectifiers and capacitors, supplying +/- DC voltages to the two individual PSU boards. Does anyone know if I can disconnect these from the PSU boards safely* and measure their outputs, and if so what voltages I should expect to see? That might be a good initial test before pointing a finger at the PSU board associated with the low outputs. * I mean without component damage - I expect they might be sitting at a significant DC voltage, so there's an obvious personal safety aspect too ;-) cheers Jules From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 25 17:47:47 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 23:47:47 -0000 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000201d39636$e7fcc860$b7f65920$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules > Richardson via cctalk > Sent: 25 January 2018 23:07 > To: xx Classiccmp mailing list > Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault > > Hi all, > > I mentioned this in the thread where I'd asked about basic Microvax II info, but > it may have got lost in traffic... > > The machine's H7260 PSU is somewhat unwell - one of the internal +5/12V > supplies appears to be healthy, but the other has outputs which are sitting at > around 2.5V (both on the 5V and 12V rails) under a test load. > > Initial questions... > > 1) Are schematics are available online? I couldn't find them (either under the > DEC p/n or the Astec AA13010 one), but perhaps they're buried in schematics > for a specific DEC machine somewhere. > I doubt it. For the H7864 from the BA23 MicroVax II Enclosure I couldn't find anything and in the end made my own schematic. > 2) Upon initial glance, the 'first' board of the three in the PSU module appears > to be a pair of control relays, bridge rectifiers and capacitors, supplying +/- DC > voltages to the two individual PSU boards. Does anyone know if I can disconnect > these from the PSU boards safely* and measure their outputs, and if so what > voltages I should expect to see? That might be a good initial test before > pointing a finger at the PSU board associated with the low outputs. > > * I mean without component damage - I expect they might be sitting at a > significant DC voltage, so there's an obvious personal safety aspect too ;-) > > cheers > > Jules From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 19:16:35 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 17:16:35 -0800 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 3:06 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > I mentioned this in the thread where I'd asked about basic Microvax II info, > but it may have got lost in traffic... > > The machine's H7260 PSU is somewhat unwell - one of the internal +5/12V > supplies appears to be healthy, but the other has outputs which are sitting > at around 2.5V (both on the 5V and 12V rails) under a test load. > Previously you also said: > OK, the top PSU of the pair in this machine appears to be healthy. The > bottom one, however, sits at around 2.5V on both the +5V and +12V outputs. > That's without any cards, and the card-cage fan / temperature sensor > unplugged, i.e. just with my dummy loads in place, so it looks like that PSU > has issues (oh, and I tried decoupling the PSU from the backplane and > loading it via the drive connector, so it doesn't appear to be a backplane > issue). > Looking here at page 107 of the maintenance print set, BA123-A Basic Enclosure Power Harness Wiring Diagram http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/630/MP02071_630QB_Mar85.pdf Did you disconnect the wiring harness from J10 completely? If you disconnected the temperature sensor module or the card-cage door interlock switch I would expect that the power supply might not operate normally. I forget what the card-cage door interlock switch does, whether it prevents the power supply from fully powering up, or if the power supply does fully power up but also turns the fans on full blast if the card-cage door is open which disrupts the normal cooling airflow. I would check what my BA123 does, but that would require too much moving of stuff about at the moment to get working space around it. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 21:29:08 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 21:29:08 -0600 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> Message-ID: <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> On 01/25/2018 07:16 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 3:06 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk >> OK, the top PSU of the pair in this machine appears to be healthy. The >> bottom one, however, sits at around 2.5V on both the +5V and +12V outputs. >> That's without any cards, and the card-cage fan / temperature sensor >> unplugged, i.e. just with my dummy loads in place, so it looks like that PSU >> has issues (oh, and I tried decoupling the PSU from the backplane and >> loading it via the drive connector, so it doesn't appear to be a backplane >> issue). >> > > Looking here at page 107 of the maintenance print set, BA123-A Basic > Enclosure Power Harness Wiring Diagram > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/630/MP02071_630QB_Mar85.pdf > > Did you disconnect the wiring harness from J10 completely? If you > disconnected the temperature sensor module or the card-cage door > interlock switch I would expect that the power supply might not > operate normally. I believe that I tried it both connected and disconnected, with no change in behavior, but I'll double-check (not until tomorrow evening now, though). I need to look at how the signals on J10 interact with the entire PSU internals - it certainly seems to get a -15V feed from the lower PSU of the pair (the one that's causing me issues), but many of the wires run to the fourth, small PCB that's in the entire PSU assembly; I assume that one handles fan control as it also connects the the PSU fan and to J7 (which supplies the fan in the mass storage area) It seems strange to me that one PSU of the pair would sit in an under-voltage condition due to a sensor issue while the other one would continue to operate normally, though; at this stage I think it's more likely that I've got a PSU fault (or a fault with the rectifier/relay board which supplies it - I'm most of the way through tracing a schematic for that board, so I can test some voltages sensibly tomorrow) Will let you know how it goes... Jules From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 26 01:30:58 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 07:30:58 -0000 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000b01d39677$9c1f06b0$d45d1410$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > via cctalk > Sent: 26 January 2018 01:17 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC H7260 PSU fault > > On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 3:06 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk > wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I mentioned this in the thread where I'd asked about basic Microvax II > > info, but it may have got lost in traffic... > > > > The machine's H7260 PSU is somewhat unwell - one of the internal > > +5/12V supplies appears to be healthy, but the other has outputs which > > are sitting at around 2.5V (both on the 5V and 12V rails) under a test load. > > > > Previously you also said: > > > OK, the top PSU of the pair in this machine appears to be healthy. The > > bottom one, however, sits at around 2.5V on both the +5V and +12V outputs. > > That's without any cards, and the card-cage fan / temperature sensor > > unplugged, i.e. just with my dummy loads in place, so it looks like > > that PSU has issues (oh, and I tried decoupling the PSU from the > > backplane and loading it via the drive connector, so it doesn't appear > > to be a backplane issue). > > > > Looking here at page 107 of the maintenance print set, BA123-A Basic > Enclosure Power Harness Wiring Diagram > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/630/MP02071_630QB_Mar85.pdf > > Did you disconnect the wiring harness from J10 completely? If you disconnected > the temperature sensor module or the card-cage door interlock switch I would > expect that the power supply might not operate normally. > > I forget what the card-cage door interlock switch does, whether it prevents the > power supply from fully powering up, or if the power supply does fully power > up but also turns the fans on full blast if the card-cage door is open which > disrupts the normal cooling airflow. If the door is open the fans run full blast. > I would check what my BA123 does, but that would require too much moving of > stuff about at the moment to get working space around it. From abs at absd.org Fri Jan 26 03:44:31 2018 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 09:44:31 +0000 Subject: SCSI Controller Hanging... In-Reply-To: <20180124163334.3B82727713@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20180123163319.DF1084E7F8@mx2.ezwind.net> <20180124163334.3B82727713@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 24 January 2018 at 16:33, Jack Harper via cctalk wrote: > > Hello Plamen - > > I use the SCSI controller that is built into the MVME177 transition module. > > No, when I RESET the system, I just press the RESET button on the processor > board - usually when it is hung with my software. On this system, I only > code in 68K assembly and so I do see the "occasional" hang :) > > Is the "SCSI reset option" part of the 68K/BUG RESET command? > > In my documentation - and I easily may not have the latest documentation - I > only see RESET options to force a COLD or WARM start on hardware RESET. > > The documentation that I have also cautions: "...may cause the disk > controller to be out of phase with respect to the disk configuration tables > in memory", which certainly makes sense. > > However, I do not modify any of those tables from system default. > > I appreciate your input. > Do you have any other software you can use to test the hardware - if it experiences the same issues then you know its hardware related. I think NetBSD supports the MVME177 board ( http://www.netbsd.org/ports/mvme68k/boards.html#MVME177%20family ) I'm sure there are others. You also mention you have multiple VME boards in the cage and multiple SCSI drives. Does the issue occur when you strip everything down to a single board set and drive? (*) Theoretically other CPU boards may not be able to affect the SCSI, but a near first rule of hardware strangeness is to pull everything thats not needed so you can be sure :) David From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Jan 26 07:14:55 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 14:14:55 +0100 Subject: KK11-A / PDP-11/34 Cache module print set Message-ID: I have now scanned the MP00574 / KK11-A printset I have received. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-rp4vyPPYu1U0tvT0Q5enFpVkZYSW5mMUV4dnJPQlBNYmpj Hope the quality is good enough. BTW. I am looking for the H8822 over the top connector. I just ask here in case anyone has a spare. Otherwise it wouldn't be that much of a hassle to make my own. I do have the H8821 as a trade in case that is of interest. /Mattis From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jan 26 08:21:11 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 09:21:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: KK11-A / PDP-11/34 Cache module print set Message-ID: <20180126142111.3A81618C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > I have now scanned the MP00574 / KK11-A printset I have received. Thank you very much for doing that! Those prints were one of the main missing PDP-11 print sets. > Hope the quality is good enough. It looks good to me. Noel From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jan 26 14:15:34 2018 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 12:15:34 -0800 Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads Message-ID: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA@fritzm.org> I watched with great interest one of curiousmarc?s recent Alto videos, wherein they clean a Diablo drive head ultrasonically. I?ve been struggling a bit with my restored RK05 drives to completely clean the heads after minor head crashes. Not being able to get them really sparkling clean makes me always worried about running the drives for more than a few minutes at a time, and a little nervous every time I spin them up?. Scrubbing and scrubbing and scrubbing with IPA and kimwipes just doesn?t seem to get all the crud off. I do have an alignment pack that I could use to re-align the heads after removing them for a proper cleaning this way. Decent ultrasonic cleaners aren?t terribly expensive and might be nice to have around the shop anyway (I could also do all my eyeglasses :-) In the video, the heads are submerged in IPA in a glass cylinder, which is then placed in the ultrasonic bath. Has anybody on the list here done this and have tips/advice beyond what can be seen in the video? It looked very effective! I?m also having a little trouble sourcing the squat form glass graduated cylinder online. cheers, ?FritzM. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 26 14:30:20 2018 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 20:30:20 +0000 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: <000201d39636$e7fcc860$b7f65920$@ntlworld.com> References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <000201d39636$e7fcc860$b7f65920$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <63e54092-d874-a5ad-4549-e6000f43badd@ntlworld.com> On 25/01/18 23:47, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > I doubt it. For the H7864 from the BA23 MicroVax II Enclosure I couldn't > find anything and in the end made my own schematic. If it was externally sourced then DEC probably didn't have a schematic. That was the case with the DEMSA (iirc) and also with various PSUs from another company I worked for. So doing rolling your own (if you indeed do need one) may be the only way. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jan 26 14:31:22 2018 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 12:31:22 -0800 Subject: RK05 rear filters/brackets Message-ID: <2E6F8E97-4BBA-4473-8432-A4773B3701AB@fritzm.org> My restored RK05 drives are missing their rear air filters (the ones that cover the back of the card cage). I would like to fashion some sort of replacements. If anybody here has access to drives with the original filters, I?d really appreciate a few photos so I can see what these looked like and how they were put together? cheers, ?FritzM. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 26 14:45:08 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 20:45:08 +0000 Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads In-Reply-To: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA@fritzm.org> References: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA@fritzm.org> Message-ID: I always use my finger and finger nail. Your finger is very sensitive to even the tiniest piece of crud. I then just need to do a final clean with IPA. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fritz Mueller via cctalk Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 12:15:34 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads I watched with great interest one of curiousmarc?s recent Alto videos, wherein they clean a Diablo drive head ultrasonically. I?ve been struggling a bit with my restored RK05 drives to completely clean the heads after minor head crashes. Not being able to get them really sparkling clean makes me always worried about running the drives for more than a few minutes at a time, and a little nervous every time I spin them up?. Scrubbing and scrubbing and scrubbing with IPA and kimwipes just doesn?t seem to get all the crud off. I do have an alignment pack that I could use to re-align the heads after removing them for a proper cleaning this way. Decent ultrasonic cleaners aren?t terribly expensive and might be nice to have around the shop anyway (I could also do all my eyeglasses :-) In the video, the heads are submerged in IPA in a glass cylinder, which is then placed in the ultrasonic bath. Has anybody on the list here done this and have tips/advice beyond what can be seen in the video? It looked very effective! I?m also having a little trouble sourcing the squat form glass graduated cylinder online. cheers, ?FritzM. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jan 26 16:14:16 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 17:14:16 -0500 Subject: RK05 rear filters/brackets In-Reply-To: <2E6F8E97-4BBA-4473-8432-A4773B3701AB@fritzm.org> References: <2E6F8E97-4BBA-4473-8432-A4773B3701AB@fritzm.org> Message-ID: Here is a quick thread I made when I replaced mine, with a photo. It's not great but it should help. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=588 On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > My restored RK05 drives are missing their rear air filters (the ones that > cover the back of the card cage). I would like to fashion some sort of > replacements. If anybody here has access to drives with the original > filters, I?d really appreciate a few photos so I can see what these looked > like and how they were put together? > > cheers, > ?FritzM. > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jan 26 16:14:44 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 17:14:44 -0500 Subject: RK05 rear filters/brackets In-Reply-To: References: <2E6F8E97-4BBA-4473-8432-A4773B3701AB@fritzm.org> Message-ID: http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp8e/RK05_ext-filter.jpg On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 5:14 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > Here is a quick thread I made when I replaced mine, with a photo. It's > not great but it should help. > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=588 > > On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> My restored RK05 drives are missing their rear air filters (the ones that >> cover the back of the card cage). I would like to fashion some sort of >> replacements. If anybody here has access to drives with the original >> filters, I?d really appreciate a few photos so I can see what these looked >> like and how they were put together? >> >> cheers, >> ?FritzM. >> >> > > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 26 19:15:02 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 19:15:02 -0600 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/25/2018 09:29 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > On 01/25/2018 07:16 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 3:06 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk >>> OK, the top PSU of the pair in this machine appears to be healthy. The >>> bottom one, however, sits at around 2.5V on both the +5V and +12V outputs. >>> That's without any cards, and the card-cage fan / temperature sensor >>> unplugged, i.e. just with my dummy loads in place, so it looks like that >>> PSU >>> has issues (oh, and I tried decoupling the PSU from the backplane and >>> loading it via the drive connector, so it doesn't appear to be a backplane >>> issue). >>> >> >> Looking here at page 107 of the maintenance print set, BA123-A Basic >> Enclosure Power Harness Wiring Diagram >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/630/MP02071_630QB_Mar85.pdf >> >> Did you disconnect the wiring harness from J10 completely? If you >> disconnected the temperature sensor module or the card-cage door >> interlock switch I would expect that the power supply might not >> operate normally. > > I believe that I tried it both connected and disconnected, with no change > in behavior, but I'll double-check (not until tomorrow evening now, though). OK, I just verified that - it doesn't matter whether the J10 harness is connected or not, same behavior. The outputs of the main relay/regulator board which feeds both supplies appear to be the same, so I don't think that's at fault. I think my next step is to trace out the wiring for the temp sensor, along with that fourth "fan control" PCB within the PSU module so that I can better understand what it's trying to do. After that... well, I need to work out how to get the entire supply assembly to start up while it's open, so that I can work on it outside the machine - then I can at least start looking for differences between the two supplies (boy, are those things complex, but maybe I'll get lucky and it's a bad solder joint or cap somewhere) cheers Jules From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jan 26 23:51:41 2018 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 21:51:41 -0800 Subject: RK05 rear filters/brackets In-Reply-To: References: <2E6F8E97-4BBA-4473-8432-A4773B3701AB@fritzm.org> Message-ID: > On Jan 26, 2018, at 2:14 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp8e/RK05_ext-filter.jpg > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=588 Thanks, Bill! I am also missing the brackets, so looking for pics of those as well. ?FritzM. From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 10:23:32 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 11:23:32 -0500 Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads In-Reply-To: References: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA@fritzm.org> Message-ID: The most versatile, effective cleaning tool /ever/. Not even sarcastic. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 3:45 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I always use my finger and finger nail. Your finger is very sensitive to > even the tiniest piece of crud. I then just need to do a final clean with > IPA. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Fritz Mueller > via cctalk > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 12:15:34 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads > > I watched with great interest one of curiousmarc?s recent Alto videos, > wherein they clean a Diablo drive head ultrasonically. I?ve been > struggling a bit with my restored RK05 drives to completely clean the heads > after minor head crashes. Not being able to get them really sparkling > clean makes me always worried about running the drives for more than a few > minutes at a time, and a little nervous every time I spin them up?. > Scrubbing and scrubbing and scrubbing with IPA and kimwipes just doesn?t > seem to get all the crud off. > > I do have an alignment pack that I could use to re-align the heads after > removing them for a proper cleaning this way. Decent ultrasonic cleaners > aren?t terribly expensive and might be nice to have around the shop anyway > (I could also do all my eyeglasses :-) > > In the video, the heads are submerged in IPA in a glass cylinder, which is > then placed in the ultrasonic bath. > > Has anybody on the list here done this and have tips/advice beyond what > can be seen in the video? It looked very effective! I?m also having a > little trouble sourcing the squat form glass graduated cylinder online. > > cheers, > ?FritzM. > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 27 10:46:05 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 11:46:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: RK05 rear filters/brackets Message-ID: <20180127164605.938C918C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > My restored RK05 drives are missing their rear air filters (the ones that > cover the back of the card cage). The formal DEC name is "prefilter" (since the air that comes in here goes through the cards, and the air blower, and then through the absolute filter on the way to the pack), and the metal thing that holds it on is the "frame". > I'd really appreciate a few photos so I can see what these looked like > and how they were put together? Here you go: http://gunkies.org/wiki/RK05_disk_drive#Prefilter_frame pictures and all the dimensions I could think of to measure. (I didn't bother with the hole locations, since you can get them off the drive.) The little hand-knob-bolts are DEC standard (used elsewhere too). Noel From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 11:04:41 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 11:04:41 -0600 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/26/2018 07:15 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > After that... well, I need to work out how to get the entire supply > assembly to start up while it's open, so that I can work on it outside the > machine - then I can at least start looking for differences between the two > supplies (boy, are those things complex, but maybe I'll get lucky and it's > a bad solder joint or cap somewhere) OK, now I feel like an idiot :-) I started looking into this, and found that neither PSU would do anything without being plugged into the (currently unpopulated) backplane. My initial assumption was that there was some interaction between the backplane and the "other" wires between it and the PSUs (i.e. the ones that don't carry +5V or +12V). However, on a whim (and I really don't know why I did this) I plugged the +5V PSU connectors up to the backplane, but left the others (carrying +12V and the other signals) unplugged. Doing that, things behaved as before - the top PSU started operating normally, and the lower PSU started putting out around 2.5V. It got me wondering though - maybe it was simply a load issue, and with my dummy loads I was right at the (lower) limit for the PSU regulation to work; perhaps I had just enough for the top PSU to operate normally (but only with the backplane hooked up too) and the lower PSU (for whatever reason) wanted just that little bit more than the top one. Anyway, I tweaked my loads to draw a little more current - and bingo! I'm now getting stable +5V and +12V outputs on both PSUs, a working card cage fan, and the DC OK light comes on. So, in summary... with no load at all, the PSUs do nothing, but with *some* load they either work OK, or the regulation is goofy and the outputs are low. Time to add CPU/memory in, wire up a console cable and see what happens, I guess. cheers Jules From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 11:44:33 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 09:44:33 -0800 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 9:04 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > Time to add CPU/memory in, wire up a console cable and see what happens, I > guess. With the PSU working everything else should be easier to get going after that. Did you figure out what the hard drive is? A working RD54 would be nice and probably worth more than any of the boards. If you start with just the M7606 - CPU and the M7608 - 4MB ram once you get a console cable built it shouldn't be too hard to get some basic signs of life. The M7606 KA630 CPU console firmware is fairly limited compared to the subsequent M7620 KA650 and M7625 KA655. It doesn't have a SHOW command to show memory and device details, and doesn't even have a HELP command to list available commands. From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jan 27 12:16:01 2018 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 10:16:01 -0800 Subject: RK05 rear filters/brackets In-Reply-To: <20180127164605.938C918C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180127164605.938C918C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5C9A4906-CB46-4B42-8D6D-CAD47CD3F1F2@fritzm.org> On Jan 27, 2018, at 8:46 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > http://gunkies.org/wiki/RK05_disk_drive#Prefilter_frame Thank you! From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 12:51:43 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 18:51:43 +0000 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On 27 Jan 2018, at 17:04, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > On 01/26/2018 07:15 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >> After that... well, I need to work out how to get the entire supply >> assembly to start up while it's open, so that I can work on it outside the >> machine - then I can at least start looking for differences between the two >> supplies (boy, are those things complex, but maybe I'll get lucky and it's >> a bad solder joint or cap somewhere) > > OK, now I feel like an idiot :-) We?ve all been there including me earlier! When you have two PSUs in a machine but only one is connected to the mains make sure you don?t connect a flying lead from the OTHER one and spend 2 hours wondering why the bloody thing doesn?t work. > Anyway, I tweaked my loads to draw a little more current - and bingo! I'm now getting stable +5V and +12V outputs on both PSUs, a working card cage fan, and the DC OK light comes on. This is good, particularly since my own BA123 has been sat in 3 garages then a utility room since 1998, you?re making me think it MIGHT just power up without any issues. And THEN I can tackle the RL02 that?s sat on top of it? being able to read my own source code from the 80s would be a special thing indeed. ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Jan 27 13:02:15 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 11:02:15 -0800 Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads In-Reply-To: References: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <68CBFB74-AD71-4A51-AA88-CFEF8D0CAD35@nf6x.net> I thoroughly enjoyed Marc's video of the head cleaning. Some dumb questions from a guy who has not yet experienced his first head crash on a removable-pack hard drive: When it happens, am I correct in assuming that the pack is toast, and should never be loaded again? My removable-pack drives are DEC RL02 drives and a Data General drive with one removable and one fixed platter, using cartridges of the same style as the RL02. The DG drive has a glass encoder, so I presume that it requires realignment after removing the heads for cleaning. I might have acquired an alignment pack for it already. But since the RL02 drives use servo bursts on the media, do they require realignment after removing and replacing the heads? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 13:16:28 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 19:16:28 +0000 Subject: TESTFDC Message-ID: <56181A29-DBEA-4F2A-A13C-B2F791528865@gmail.com> I?d like to thank whoever it was who added the Abit K8V Pro/Winbond W83627HF with its test results to the TESTFDC page for writing SSSD disks. I?ve been trying to get a similar setup going for a fortnight now and last week found this motherboard on e*ay for Not Many UK Pounds. Coupled with a scrap Athlon64 system from work and a scratched Windows98 CD I eventually got it going earlier and can now read/write single density floppies meaning I can archive the disks I got with my Research Machines 380Z :D Typical of my luck a contact has also found an Adaptec 1522A that he?ll hopefully send me too, then I?m covered for all eventualities. Now where did I put that 8? drive... ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 13:38:40 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 13:38:40 -0600 Subject: TESTFDC In-Reply-To: <56181A29-DBEA-4F2A-A13C-B2F791528865@gmail.com> References: <56181A29-DBEA-4F2A-A13C-B2F791528865@gmail.com> Message-ID: windows 98 on a athlon 64 shoiuld be one of the fastest windows installs ever :) anyhow cool rig for messing with stuff On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 1:16 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I?d like to thank whoever it was who added the Abit K8V Pro/Winbond > W83627HF with its test results to the TESTFDC page for writing SSSD disks. > I?ve been trying to get a similar setup going for a fortnight now and last > week found this motherboard on e*ay for Not Many UK Pounds. Coupled with a > scrap Athlon64 system from work and a scratched Windows98 CD I eventually > got it going earlier and can now read/write single density floppies meaning > I can archive the disks I got with my Research Machines 380Z :D > > Typical of my luck a contact has also found an Adaptec 1522A that he?ll > hopefully send me too, then I?m covered for all eventualities. > > Now where did I put that 8? drive... > > ? > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards > w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: > @binarydinosaurs > f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > > From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jan 27 13:43:48 2018 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 11:43:48 -0800 Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads In-Reply-To: <68CBFB74-AD71-4A51-AA88-CFEF8D0CAD35@nf6x.net> References: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA@fritzm.org> <68CBFB74-AD71-4A51-AA88-CFEF8D0CAD35@nf6x.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the tip on heating, Carl. > On Jan 27, 2018, at 11:02 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > Some dumb questions from a guy who has not yet experienced his first head crash on a removable-pack hard drive: > > When it happens, am I correct in assuming that the pack is toast, and should never be loaded again? I?m fairly new to this as well, but from what I have seen so far, head crashes vary in severity from mild bumps/scrapes to deep, brutal gouges. My experience with RK05 packs is that media may be recovered after mild crashes with careful cleaning, though it takes a good bit of patience and elbow grease to remove post-crash smudges of burnt oxide from the disk surfaces and the heads. Anything with a deeper gouge will probably just crash again straight away. I received about a dozen packs with my RK05 drives. There is a lot of good advice in the archives here and over on the vcfed DEC forum about opening/inspecting/cleaning packs, and I don?t think I?d try to mount anything in my drives without opening it up and giving it an inspection first. On RK05 packs this is easy; since they are a single platter you can easily see and clean the entirety of both surfaces. I imagine on a multi-platter pack it would be really difficult to inspect or clean without unstacking the platters, after which I?d guess alignment and balancing would be problematic? The dozen or so packs that I received with my drives many years ago had a lot of variation in condition. Some had bad, hard crashes, others just had ?bumps and bruises?. The heads of both drives as I received them had lots of oxide build up ? it doesn?t look as if the previous users (scientists in a lab) had very good disk hygiene! ?FritzM. From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 14:21:56 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 15:21:56 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC In-Reply-To: <56181A29-DBEA-4F2A-A13C-B2F791528865@gmail.com> References: <56181A29-DBEA-4F2A-A13C-B2F791528865@gmail.com> Message-ID: That came off of the original import from Dave's old registry. I've still got to go through and approve the new submissions, planning on doing that this weekend, as well as adding a few of my own! Thanks, Jonathan On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 2:16 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I?d like to thank whoever it was who added the Abit K8V Pro/Winbond > W83627HF with its test results to the TESTFDC page for writing SSSD disks. > I?ve been trying to get a similar setup going for a fortnight now and last > week found this motherboard on e*ay for Not Many UK Pounds. Coupled with a > scrap Athlon64 system from work and a scratched Windows98 CD I eventually > got it going earlier and can now read/write single density floppies meaning > I can archive the disks I got with my Research Machines 380Z :D > > Typical of my luck a contact has also found an Adaptec 1522A that he?ll > hopefully send me too, then I?m covered for all eventualities. > > Now where did I put that 8? drive... > > ? > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards > w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: > @binarydinosaurs > f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jan 27 14:23:57 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 20:23:57 -0000 Subject: TESTFDC In-Reply-To: <56181A29-DBEA-4F2A-A13C-B2F791528865@gmail.com> References: <56181A29-DBEA-4F2A-A13C-B2F791528865@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002401d397ac$c2fe2140$48fa63c0$@ntlworld.com> A 380Z, nice! I used to use those when I was at University. My final year project used one connected to a research machine called MU6-G for diagnostics. All the registers in the machine were connected up as one enormous shift register, so you could get and set any register in the machine from the 380Z. I wrote a program to do simple diagnostics on the machine. It was a lot of fun. They don?t come up very often and go for more money than I can justify. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham via cctalk > Sent: 27 January 2018 19:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: TESTFDC > > I?d like to thank whoever it was who added the Abit K8V Pro/Winbond > W83627HF with its test results to the TESTFDC page for writing SSSD disks. I?ve > been trying to get a similar setup going for a fortnight now and last week found > this motherboard on e*ay for Not Many UK Pounds. Coupled with a scrap > Athlon64 system from work and a scratched Windows98 CD I eventually got it > going earlier and can now read/write single density floppies meaning I can > archive the disks I got with my Research Machines 380Z :D > > Typical of my luck a contact has also found an Adaptec 1522A that he?ll > hopefully send me too, then I?m covered for all eventualities. > > Now where did I put that 8? drive... > > ? > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards > w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs > f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 14:43:32 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 14:43:32 -0600 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0d4a7021-d944-9d1d-e5dd-b8def5aeda0e@gmail.com> On 01/27/2018 11:44 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 9:04 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Time to add CPU/memory in, wire up a console cable and see what happens, I >> guess. > > With the PSU working everything else should be easier to get going after that. > > Did you figure out what the hard drive is? A working RD54 would be > nice and probably worth more than any of the boards. Well, there's someone's hand-written sticker on the top saying it's a lowly RD51 - however the actual p/n sticker says it's an RD53-A and the defect table lists it as ST506, 85MB. Of course it probably doesn't work anyway ;-) > If you start with just the M7606 - CPU and the M7608 - 4MB ram once > you get a console cable built it shouldn't be too hard to get some > basic signs of life. Yes, that's where I'm at right now... Console default is 8 data bits, 1 stop bit and no parity (at whatever speed the switch is set to), correct? I'm getting an alternating F and 9 on the hex LED diag display on the console panel, no output at all on my terminal, and the M7606 starts with 4 solid red LEDs, then a solid green, then the middle pair of the red LEDs start a simultaneous slow flash on/off (while the outer two plus the green remain steady) This is just with the M7606 CPU and M7808 memory plugged in, nothing else (apart from the half-height board at the end of the backplane which distributes signals to the RD53) - oh and the LEDs were observed with the card cage cover switch held down, so 'under normal operating conditions'. For console cable wiring I'm using the following ref: http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/panels.htm There's a ref here for the status codes: https://support.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c01608433 .. however, I'm not sure what the alternating codes mean; 'F' seems to be power-related, but I don't know why the CPU would proceed if it thought there was a power fault, and '9' is related to terminal ID, but it seems to suggest it should automatically continue after 6 seconds. cheers Jules From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jan 27 14:48:56 2018 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 12:48:56 -0800 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A7FC53F-082A-4FAD-9E43-3292DB15CFCF@fritzm.org> On Jan 27, 2018, at 11:05 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctech wrote: > Isopropyl alcohol. Not very good for drinking; even store-brand vodka in plastic jugs is less harsh. :) Haha ? I don?t think I?ve had any ?jug vodka? since college house-party days, but that takes me back :-) ?FritzM. From mark at matlockfamily.com Sat Jan 27 11:16:18 2018 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 11:16:18 -0600 Subject: ADV11-A vs. ADV11-C and 22-bit Bus Message-ID: I have an ADV11-A that I would like to use in a Q22 RSX11M+ system. The ADV11-C will work in a 22-bit Bus system from what I understand but the ADV11-A was made for 18 bit Bus systems. In the OEM Micronote book, Note 5, it states: Any device which uses backplane pins BC1, BD1, BEl, BF1 or DC1, 001, DEl, OF!, for purposes other than BDAL18-21 is electrically incompatible with the 22-bit bus and may not be used without modification. Further down it lists the ADV11-A as a device that does not meet the requirements for a Qbus 22-bit system because: ADV11 (A012). A/D Converter. (Use of BC1 for purposes other than BDAL18) When I look at the Board connector B pin C side 1 (component side) the BC1 pin is tied to ground. Several other pins are also tied to ground on that connector such as BC2, BJ1, and BT1. Other than BC1 which is BDAL18 being tied to ground the pins BDAL19 (BD1), BDAL20 (BE1), And BDAL21 (BF1) are all not connected to anything. This also matches the field engineering print for ADV11-A (B-TC-ADBV11-A-1) where BC1 is shown tied to ground on page 21. So it looks like if I simply cut the trace between the BC1 finger and its connection to ground on the board it would become Q22 compatible. Is it that simple? Thanks, Mark Matlock From carlclaunch51 at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 12:17:04 2018 From: carlclaunch51 at gmail.com (Carl Claunch) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 10:17:04 -0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: The IPA is heated to 60C before the ultrasound is able to remove the oxide remnants, FWIW. While we can often get the entire smooth surface of the head clean with swabs and IPA, it is very difficult to clean all the material that forms in the cruciform trench recessed into the head (where the read/write and erase coil poles are visible). Heads can seem clean to the naked eye, but a good stereo microscope will insure that you have a clean and smooth surface. Regards, Carl Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 12:15:34 -0800 > From: Fritz Mueller > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads > Message-ID: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA at fritzm.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > I watched with great interest one of curiousmarc?s recent Alto videos, > wherein they clean a Diablo drive head ultrasonically. I?ve been > struggling a bit with my restored RK05 drives to completely clean the heads > after minor head crashes. Not being able to get them really sparkling > clean makes me always worried about running the drives for more than a few > minutes at a time, and a little nervous every time I spin them up?. > Scrubbing and scrubbing and scrubbing with IPA and kimwipes just doesn?t > seem to get all the crud off. > > I do have an alignment pack that I could use to re-align the heads after > removing them for a proper cleaning this way. Decent ultrasonic cleaners > aren?t terribly expensive and might be nice to have around the shop anyway > (I could also do all my eyeglasses :-) > > In the video, the heads are submerged in IPA in a glass cylinder, which is > then placed in the ultrasonic bath. > > Has anybody on the list here done this and have tips/advice beyond what > can be seen in the video? It looked very effective! I?m also having a > little trouble sourcing the squat form glass graduated cylinder online. > > cheers, > ?FritzM. > > From jsw at ieee.org Sat Jan 27 13:05:33 2018 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 13:05:33 -0600 Subject: ADV11-A vs. ADV11-C and 22-bit Bus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC390E0-840B-401E-B31F-2EDF159C79C6@ieee.org> > On Jan 27, 2018, at 11:16 AM, Mark Matlock via cctech wrote: > > I have an ADV11-A that I would like to use in a Q22 RSX11M+ system. The ADV11-C will work in a 22-bit Bus system from what I understand but the ADV11-A was made for 18 bit Bus systems. In the OEM Micronote book, Note 5, it states: > > Any device which uses backplane pins BC1, BD1, BEl, BF1 or DC1, 001, DEl, OF!, for purposes other than BDAL18-21 is electrically incompatible with the 22-bit bus and may not be used without modification. > > > Further down it lists the ADV11-A as a device that does not meet the requirements for a Qbus 22-bit system because: > ADV11 (A012). A/D Converter. (Use of BC1 for purposes other than BDAL18) > > When I look at the Board connector B pin C side 1 (component side) the BC1 pin is tied to ground. Several other pins are also tied to ground on that connector such as BC2, BJ1, and BT1. Other than BC1 which is BDAL18 being tied to ground the pins BDAL19 (BD1), BDAL20 (BE1), And BDAL21 (BF1) are all not connected to anything. This also matches the field engineering print for ADV11-A (B-TC-ADBV11-A-1) where BC1 is shown tied to ground on page 21. > > So it looks like if I simply cut the trace between the BC1 finger and its connection to ground on the board it would become Q22 compatible. > > Is it that simple? > I am considering the same modification to my own ADV11-A. I just located the field maintenance print you referenced, so I can now research this a bit further myself. Being a interrupt only device and using on BBS7 to decode the IO page, this should function in an Q/Q backplane slot "in theory". Jerry jsw at ieee.org From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 12:23:33 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 12:23:33 -0600 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ipa as in beer? On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Carl Claunch via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The IPA is heated to 60C before the ultrasound is able to remove the oxide > remnants, FWIW. > > While we can often get the entire smooth surface of the head clean with > swabs and IPA, it is very difficult to clean all the material that forms in > the cruciform trench recessed into the head (where the read/write and erase > coil poles are visible). > > Heads can seem clean to the naked eye, but a good stereo microscope will > insure that you have a clean and smooth surface. > > Regards, > Carl > > Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 12:15:34 -0800 > > From: Fritz Mueller > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads > > Message-ID: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA at fritzm.org> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > I watched with great interest one of curiousmarc?s recent Alto videos, > > wherein they clean a Diablo drive head ultrasonically. I?ve been > > struggling a bit with my restored RK05 drives to completely clean the > heads > > after minor head crashes. Not being able to get them really sparkling > > clean makes me always worried about running the drives for more than a > few > > minutes at a time, and a little nervous every time I spin them up?. > > Scrubbing and scrubbing and scrubbing with IPA and kimwipes just doesn?t > > seem to get all the crud off. > > > > I do have an alignment pack that I could use to re-align the heads after > > removing them for a proper cleaning this way. Decent ultrasonic cleaners > > aren?t terribly expensive and might be nice to have around the shop > anyway > > (I could also do all my eyeglasses :-) > > > > In the video, the heads are submerged in IPA in a glass cylinder, which > is > > then placed in the ultrasonic bath. > > > > Has anybody on the list here done this and have tips/advice beyond what > > can be seen in the video? It looked very effective! I?m also having a > > little trouble sourcing the squat form glass graduated cylinder online. > > > > cheers, > > ?FritzM. > > > > > From henry.bnd at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 12:45:58 2018 From: henry.bnd at gmail.com (Henry Bond) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 18:45:58 +0000 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Isopropyl alcohol would be a sensible guess, I've not seen that abbreviation before though . - H On Sat, Jan 27, 2018, 18:24 Adrian Stoness via cctech wrote: > ipa as in beer? > > On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Carl Claunch via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > The IPA is heated to 60C before the ultrasound is able to remove the > oxide > > remnants, FWIW. > > > > While we can often get the entire smooth surface of the head clean with > > swabs and IPA, it is very difficult to clean all the material that forms > in > > the cruciform trench recessed into the head (where the read/write and > erase > > coil poles are visible). > > > > Heads can seem clean to the naked eye, but a good stereo microscope will > > insure that you have a clean and smooth surface. > > > > Regards, > > Carl > > > > Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 12:15:34 -0800 > > > From: Fritz Mueller > > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > > > Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads > > > Message-ID: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA at fritzm.org> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > > > I watched with great interest one of curiousmarc?s recent Alto videos, > > > wherein they clean a Diablo drive head ultrasonically. I?ve been > > > struggling a bit with my restored RK05 drives to completely clean the > > heads > > > after minor head crashes. Not being able to get them really sparkling > > > clean makes me always worried about running the drives for more than a > > few > > > minutes at a time, and a little nervous every time I spin them up?. > > > Scrubbing and scrubbing and scrubbing with IPA and kimwipes just > doesn?t > > > seem to get all the crud off. > > > > > > I do have an alignment pack that I could use to re-align the heads > after > > > removing them for a proper cleaning this way. Decent ultrasonic > cleaners > > > aren?t terribly expensive and might be nice to have around the shop > > anyway > > > (I could also do all my eyeglasses :-) > > > > > > In the video, the heads are submerged in IPA in a glass cylinder, which > > is > > > then placed in the ultrasonic bath. > > > > > > Has anybody on the list here done this and have tips/advice beyond what > > > can be seen in the video? It looked very effective! I?m also having a > > > little trouble sourcing the squat form glass graduated cylinder online. > > > > > > cheers, > > > ?FritzM. > > > > > > > > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Jan 27 13:05:22 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 11:05:22 -0800 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jan 27, 2018, at 10:23, Adrian Stoness via cctech wrote: > > ipa as in beer? Isopropyl alcohol. Not very good for drinking; even store-brand vodka in plastic jugs is less harsh. :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 14:54:59 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 16:54:59 -0400 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah for me IPA=India Pale Ale On 2018-01-27 2:45 PM, Henry Bond via cctalk wrote: > Isopropyl alcohol would be a sensible guess, I've not seen that > abbreviation before though . > > - H > > On Sat, Jan 27, 2018, 18:24 Adrian Stoness via cctech > wrote: > >> ipa as in beer? >> >> On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Carl Claunch via cctech < >> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> The IPA is heated to 60C before the ultrasound is able to remove the >> oxide >>> remnants, FWIW. >>> >>> While we can often get the entire smooth surface of the head clean with >>> swabs and IPA, it is very difficult to clean all the material that forms >> in >>> the cruciform trench recessed into the head (where the read/write and >> erase >>> coil poles are visible). >>> >>> Heads can seem clean to the naked eye, but a good stereo microscope will >>> insure that you have a clean and smooth surface. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Carl >>> >>> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 12:15:34 -0800 >>>> From: Fritz Mueller >>>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>>> >>>> Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads >>>> Message-ID: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA at fritzm.org> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >>>> >>>> I watched with great interest one of curiousmarc?s recent Alto videos, >>>> wherein they clean a Diablo drive head ultrasonically. I?ve been >>>> struggling a bit with my restored RK05 drives to completely clean the >>> heads >>>> after minor head crashes. Not being able to get them really sparkling >>>> clean makes me always worried about running the drives for more than a >>> few >>>> minutes at a time, and a little nervous every time I spin them up?. >>>> Scrubbing and scrubbing and scrubbing with IPA and kimwipes just >> doesn?t >>>> seem to get all the crud off. >>>> >>>> I do have an alignment pack that I could use to re-align the heads >> after >>>> removing them for a proper cleaning this way. Decent ultrasonic >> cleaners >>>> aren?t terribly expensive and might be nice to have around the shop >>> anyway >>>> (I could also do all my eyeglasses :-) >>>> >>>> In the video, the heads are submerged in IPA in a glass cylinder, which >>> is >>>> then placed in the ultrasonic bath. >>>> >>>> Has anybody on the list here done this and have tips/advice beyond what >>>> can be seen in the video? It looked very effective! I?m also having a >>>> little trouble sourcing the squat form glass graduated cylinder online. >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> ?FritzM. >>>> >>>> From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 15:01:18 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 21:01:18 +0000 Subject: TESTFDC In-Reply-To: <002401d397ac$c2fe2140$48fa63c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <56181A29-DBEA-4F2A-A13C-B2F791528865@gmail.com> <002401d397ac$c2fe2140$48fa63c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > On 27 Jan 2018, at 20:23, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > A 380Z, nice! I used to use those when I was at University. My final year project used one connected to a research machine called MU6-G for diagnostics. All the registers in the machine were connected up as one enormous shift register, so you could get and set any register in the machine from the 380Z. I wrote a program to do simple diagnostics on the machine. It was a lot of fun. > > They don?t come up very often and go for more money than I can justify. It was the first machine I used at school so when someone offered me a broken one back in 2011 I jumped at the chance. I tried fixing it back then with Tony?s help but wasn?t as confident as I am now so it only took me a few hours to fix. Fortunately it came with boot disks but making new ones has been a massive lesson in CP/M compatibility and reintroduction to assembler coupled with swearing :) It uses an odd format that 22DISK doesn?t like though, but ImageDisk works nicely now that I have the right PC hardware to do it. I?m now keen to try cpmtools on linux once I find out if that floppy controller is still supported, and if it isn?t how far back to I need to go! Much writing and pictures (no swearing) at http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/rml/380z.php Cheers A > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian >> Graham via cctalk >> Sent: 27 January 2018 19:16 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: TESTFDC >> >> I?d like to thank whoever it was who added the Abit K8V Pro/Winbond >> W83627HF with its test results to the TESTFDC page for writing SSSD disks. I?ve >> been trying to get a similar setup going for a fortnight now and last week found >> this motherboard on e*ay for Not Many UK Pounds. Coupled with a scrap >> Athlon64 system from work and a scratched Windows98 CD I eventually got it >> going earlier and can now read/write single density floppies meaning I can >> archive the disks I got with my Research Machines 380Z :D >> >> Typical of my luck a contact has also found an Adaptec 1522A that he?ll >> hopefully send me too, then I?m covered for all eventualities. >> >> Now where did I put that 8? drive... >> >> ? >> Adrian/Witchy >> Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards >> w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs >> f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 15:02:48 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 15:02:48 -0600 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: <0d4a7021-d944-9d1d-e5dd-b8def5aeda0e@gmail.com> References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> <0d4a7021-d944-9d1d-e5dd-b8def5aeda0e@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/27/2018 02:43 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > There's a ref here for the status codes: > > https://support.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c01608433 > OK, looking at the 630QB tech manual now, which seems to be where these were lifted from... and of course it points out that the LEDs on the M7606 correspond to the hex codes on the panel (i.e. my four red LEDs with the middle pair flashing on and off equate to the alternating F-9 I'm seeing on the hex LED) The green LED on the CPU board is 'DC OK' and I'm also getting a green 'DC OK' on the front of the machine, and it seems odd those would be lit if there were a DC fault... but who knows. No explanation of the flashing codes, either; the manual seems to imply that it steps through in sequence down from 'F' and will stop when there's a fault. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 15:06:22 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 15:06:22 -0600 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/27/2018 12:51 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> Anyway, I tweaked my loads to draw a little more current - and bingo! >> I'm now getting stable +5V and +12V outputs on both PSUs, a working >> card cage fan, and the DC OK light comes on. > > This is good, particularly since my own BA123 has been sat in 3 garages > then a utility room since 1998, you?re making me think it MIGHT just > power up without any issues. Hey, my rifa caps haven't exploded yet, either! :-D See reply to Glen, though - I'm getting an alternating F-9 on the hex display / CPU diag LEDs, which the docs don't mention as being a 'thing'; they seem to imply that startup codes should decrease from 'F' and stop if there's a fault, not go into a condition where they alternate. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 15:31:58 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 13:31:58 -0800 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> <0d4a7021-d944-9d1d-e5dd-b8def5aeda0e@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > OK, looking at the 630QB tech manual now, which seems to be where these were > lifted from... and of course it points out that the LEDs on the M7606 > correspond to the hex codes on the panel (i.e. my four red LEDs with the > middle pair flashing on and off equate to the alternating F-9 I'm seeing on > the hex LED) > > The green LED on the CPU board is 'DC OK' and I'm also getting a green 'DC > OK' on the front of the machine, and it seems odd those would be lit if > there were a DC fault... but who knows. No explanation of the flashing > codes, either; the manual seems to imply that it steps through in sequence > down from 'F' and will stop when there's a fault. Do you have a scope that you can use to monitor the BDCOK line? If it is periodically dropping low that would cause a loop of the processor halting and resetting. That could be happening fast enough that the DC OK LED appears to stay on continuously. That would be the same as periodically pressing the Restart button on the front panel, which works by pulling down the BDCOK line. (See the BA123-A Front Panel sheet, page 115 of the maintenance print sheet PDF MP02071_630QB_Mar85.pdf) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 15:34:42 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 15:34:42 -0600 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> <0d4a7021-d944-9d1d-e5dd-b8def5aeda0e@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/27/2018 03:02 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > OK, looking at the 630QB tech manual now, which seems to be where these > were lifted from... and of course it points out that the LEDs on the M7606 > correspond to the hex codes on the panel (i.e. my four red LEDs with the > middle pair flashing on and off equate to the alternating F-9 I'm seeing on > the hex LED) Success! I'd left the rear panel console settings how they were when I got the machine, I mean 'T' for terminal, right? Wrong... arrow for terminal, 'T' for "sit there alternating between F and 9, and driving Jules insane" ;) I'm getting console output now, and it's getting down to trying to load system software before failing (understandably, because I don't have any other boards in there right now) Will throw boards back in there and see what happens... J. From steven at malikoff.com Sat Jan 27 15:47:24 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 07:47:24 +1000 Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads In-Reply-To: <68CBFB74-AD71-4A51-AA88-CFEF8D0CAD35@nf6x.net> References: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA@fritzm.org> <68CBFB74-AD71-4A51-AA88-CFEF8D0CAD35@nf6x.net> Message-ID: I too watched Marc's video with great interest, as I have a pair of Diablo 31's identical to his. Now, I'm a long long long way from getting them operational, but it's good to see what has worked for future reference. As I'd never be able to find a similar alignment pack, the heads in mine would have to stay put for cleaning. Thus I'm wondering whether it would be possible to place the drive vertically so the heads point down, and use one of those el-cheapo miniature jewellery ultrasonic cleaners plentiful on eBay to dip the heads into the isopropyl alcohol, in situ? The cleaner would I expect require some modification for it to fit around the heads and in the tight space, plus some mounting arrangement to keep it from falling into the drive. Steve. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 15:54:52 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 16:54:52 -0500 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> <0d4a7021-d944-9d1d-e5dd-b8def5aeda0e@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > Success! Congratulations! > I'd left the rear panel console settings how they were when I got the > machine, I mean 'T' for terminal, right? Wrong... arrow for terminal, 'T' > for "sit there alternating between F and 9, and driving Jules insane" ;) 'T' is Test... > I'm getting console output now, and it's getting down to trying to load > system software before failing (understandably, because I don't have any > other boards in there right now) > > Will throw boards back in there and see what happens... > > J. > > > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jan 27 15:55:56 2018 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 16:55:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: TESTFDC In-Reply-To: <56181A29-DBEA-4F2A-A13C-B2F791528865@gmail.com> References: <56181A29-DBEA-4F2A-A13C-B2F791528865@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > I?d like to thank whoever it was who added the Abit K8V Pro/Winbond W83627HF > with its test results to the TESTFDC page for writing SSSD disks. I?ve been > trying to get a similar setup going for a fortnight now and last week found > this motherboard on e*ay for Not Many UK Pounds. Coupled with a scrap > Athlon64 system from work and a scratched Windows98 CD I eventually got it > going earlier and can now read/write single density floppies meaning I can > archive the disks I got with my Research Machines 380Z :D I'm also using the K8V Pro for my imaging system. I've successfully made bootable disks for all sorts of SD and DD systems. > Now where did I put that 8? drive... I'm using a Tandon 848 on mine. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Jan 27 15:59:00 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 13:59:00 -0800 Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads In-Reply-To: References: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA@fritzm.org> <68CBFB74-AD71-4A51-AA88-CFEF8D0CAD35@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <50529DAF-AA73-4D28-8C40-F03ABB52BE95@nf6x.net> Speaking of these drives, I have a single decpack cartridge which hitchhiked along with a purchase of RL02 packs. It's marked "decpack 2200 BPI-12" and has 12 sector notches in the hub. Does that mean that it was most likely used with an RK05 drive in a PDP-11 system? I seem to recall that packs used with a PDP-8 system would have 16 sector notches. I hope that I can procure a matching drive for it one of these days, even though Marc's video makes me think I'd be royally screwed if I didn't also manage to procure a good alignment pack to go with it, and maybe some spare heads. I don't have any experience with the front-loading drives yet. Labels on the pack indicate that it saw some DEC maintenance on 1/6/84, and it was used by somebody named Fred Knight. It's labeled "KMC-LP Testing Pack". I know it's a long shot, but it would be neat if any of that meant something to anybody on the list. I don't know anything about how to clean hard drive packs, and that's something I'd like to learn about. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 16:02:02 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 17:02:02 -0500 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> <0d4a7021-d944-9d1d-e5dd-b8def5aeda0e@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > Success! Congratulations! > I'd left the rear panel console settings how they were when I got the > machine, I mean 'T' for terminal, right? Wrong... arrow for terminal, 'T' > for "sit there alternating between F and 9, and driving Jules insane" ;) 'T' is 'Loop Test'... http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/panels.htm http://www.vaxination.ca/vms/microvax/uVAXII_HWinfo_Sep87.pdf > I'm getting console output now, and it's getting down to trying to load > system software > > Will throw boards back in there and see what happens... Just be sure to follow the grant chain - the BA23 and BA123 have a hybrid backplane where the first few slots are CD slots and the rest are serpentine (3 CD slots for BA23, 5 CD slots for BA123). http://web.frainresearch.org:8080/projects/pdp-11/chassis.php http://vaxarchive.org/hardware/qbus1.html -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 16:13:06 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 14:13:06 -0800 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> <0d4a7021-d944-9d1d-e5dd-b8def5aeda0e@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk > wrote: >> Success! > > Congratulations! > >> I'd left the rear panel console settings how they were when I got the >> machine, I mean 'T' for terminal, right? Wrong... arrow for terminal, 'T' >> for "sit there alternating between F and 9, and driving Jules insane" ;) > > 'T' is 'Loop Test'... http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/630/ AX-GLBAA-MN_MicroVAX_II_630QB_Technical_Manual_Nov85.pdf Page 37 of the PDF, page 2-6, Figure 2-2, CPU Patch Panel Insert. Might be helpful to print out a copy of that figure and tape it to the back of the BA123. I can never remember what the rotary and toggle switch positions mean. > Just be sure to follow the grant chain - the BA23 and BA123 have a > hybrid backplane where the first few slots are CD slots and the rest > are serpentine (3 CD slots for BA23, 5 CD slots for BA123). First 4 slots of a BA123 are Q22/CD, not the first 5. Page 22 of the PDF, page 1-11, Figure 1-9 Backplane Grant Continuity of the same manual referenced above. From binarydinosaurs at icloud.com Sat Jan 27 16:24:36 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at icloud.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 22:24:36 +0000 Subject: TESTFDC In-Reply-To: References: <56181A29-DBEA-4F2A-A13C-B2F791528865@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8C1A9E0C-9768-4C55-81B1-2AC3066548FA@icloud.com> > On 27 Jan 2018, at 21:55, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > >> I?d like to thank whoever it was who added the Abit K8V Pro/Winbond W83627HF with its test results to the TESTFDC page for writing SSSD disks. I?ve been trying to get a similar setup going for a fortnight now and last week found this motherboard on e*ay for Not Many UK Pounds. Coupled with a scrap Athlon64 system from work and a scratched Windows98 CD I eventually got it going earlier and can now read/write single density floppies meaning I can archive the disks I got with my Research Machines 380Z :D > > I'm also using the K8V Pro for my imaging system. I've successfully made bootable disks for all sorts of SD and DD systems. This one took some coaxing to get going but now that it is I have a need to make disks for my TRS80 Model 4P since I only have the one boot disk with it. >> Now where did I put that 8? drive... > > I'm using a Tandon 848 on mine. My pair are Tandons, they?re in a CPT8500 word processor which I?d also like to get going at some point. Any tips on coaxing them back into life? Cheers! A > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 16:27:23 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 22:27:23 +0000 Subject: TESTFDC In-Reply-To: References: <56181A29-DBEA-4F2A-A13C-B2F791528865@gmail.com> Message-ID: (2nd go, fat fingers posted from the wrong account, apologies if it double posts) > On 27 Jan 2018, at 21:55, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > >> I?d like to thank whoever it was who added the Abit K8V Pro/Winbond W83627HF with its test results to the TESTFDC page for writing SSSD disks. I?ve been trying to get a similar setup going for a fortnight now and last week found this motherboard on e*ay for Not Many UK Pounds. Coupled with a scrap Athlon64 system from work and a scratched Windows98 CD I eventually got it going earlier and can now read/write single density floppies meaning I can archive the disks I got with my Research Machines 380Z :D > > I'm also using the K8V Pro for my imaging system. I've successfully made bootable disks for all sorts of SD and DD systems. This one took some coaxing to get going but now that it is I have a need to make disks for my TRS80 Model 4P since I only have the one boot disk with it. >> Now where did I put that 8? drive... > > I'm using a Tandon 848 on mine. My pair are Tandons, they?re in a CPT8500 word processor which I?d also like to get going at some point. Any tips on coaxing them back into life? Cheers! A > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs From cramcram at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 16:12:21 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 14:12:21 -0800 Subject: KK11-A / PDP-11/34 Cache module print set In-Reply-To: <20180126142111.3A81618C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180126142111.3A81618C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: BTW, what's the difference between a KK11-A and KK11-B? Thanks, Marc On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 6:21 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Mattis Lind > > > I have now scanned the MP00574 / KK11-A printset I have received. > > Thank you very much for doing that! Those prints were one of the main > missing > PDP-11 print sets. > > > Hope the quality is good enough. > > It looks good to me. > > Noel > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 16:39:12 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 17:39:12 -0500 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> <0d4a7021-d944-9d1d-e5dd-b8def5aeda0e@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> Just be sure to follow the grant chain - the BA23 and BA123 have a >> hybrid backplane where the first few slots are CD slots and the rest >> are serpentine (3 CD slots for BA23, 5 CD slots for BA123). > > First 4 slots of a BA123 are Q22/CD, not the first 5. Page 22 of the > PDF, page 1-11, Figure 1-9 Backplane Grant Continuity of the same > manual referenced above. Good catch. I looked it up because I remembered that it was different but I misread one of the links that mentioned slot 5... slot 5 is the _first_ Q22 slot. 1-4 are Q22/CD. Thanks for spotting this. -ethan From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jan 27 16:58:40 2018 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 17:58:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: TESTFDC In-Reply-To: <8C1A9E0C-9768-4C55-81B1-2AC3066548FA@icloud.com> References: <56181A29-DBEA-4F2A-A13C-B2F791528865@gmail.com> <8C1A9E0C-9768-4C55-81B1-2AC3066548FA@icloud.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >>> Now where did I put that 8? drive... >> >> I'm using a Tandon 848 on mine. > > My pair are Tandons, they?re in a CPT8500 word processor which I?d also like to get going at some point. Any tips on coaxing them back into life? Nothing specific to the drive, but I think well of the FDADAP 8" floppy disk adapter to connect the drive to the controller: http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 27 17:01:43 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 18:01:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: KK11-A / PDP-11/34 Cache module print set Message-ID: <20180127230143.6B07F18C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Marc Howard > what's the difference between a KK11-A and KK11-B? KK11-A -> -11/34 KK11-B -> -11/44 Noel From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 17:38:52 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 17:38:52 -0600 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> <0d4a7021-d944-9d1d-e5dd-b8def5aeda0e@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5447957d-da58-4acf-02ef-c32057157b30@gmail.com> On 01/27/2018 04:02 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk > wrote: >> Success! > > > Congratulations! ish... :-) It seems that my DHV11 board is bad - the system stalls on the PSU tests with it plugged in. The TK50 drive sits there with a rapidly-flashing light (I saw someone saying that's likely the tape feed band or just dirty heads, so it might be fixable). The RD53 drive... hmm. I tried powering it without it plugged in, just to see if it at least sounded healthy; it spun up to a "sensible-sounding" speed for maybe 15 seconds, then spun down again. I tried again, and it remained spun-up, but the initial spin-down was hardly encouraging. With the drive actually hooked up to the controller, I'm getting "?54 RETRY" messages when it's trying to boot - however, I'm not entirely sure what device it's trying to boot from! Maybe it's attempting the TK50, or via Ethernet. I still need to read up on that and work out how to force it to attempt a disk boot. One other issue is that the RD53 was in the second bay (and hooked up to the associated cables) - it makes me wonder if it was just an auxiliary disk, and the system originally had another drive in the first bay (containing actual OS) which has been removed. > Just be sure to follow the grant chain Yup, I *think* I've got my head around how that works! (along with the special slots for CPU/RAM) cheers Jules From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jan 27 18:01:01 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 00:01:01 -0000 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: <5447957d-da58-4acf-02ef-c32057157b30@gmail.com> References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> <0d4a7021-d944-9d1d-e5dd-b8def5aeda0e@gmail.com> <5447957d-da58-4acf-02ef-c32057157b30@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003d01d397cb$157ff920$407feb60$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules > Richardson via cctalk > Sent: 27 January 2018 23:39 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC H7260 PSU fault > > On 01/27/2018 04:02 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk > > wrote: > >> Success! > > > > > > Congratulations! > > ish... :-) > > It seems that my DHV11 board is bad - the system stalls on the PSU tests with it > plugged in. > > The TK50 drive sits there with a rapidly-flashing light (I saw someone saying > that's likely the tape feed band or just dirty heads, so it might be fixable). > > The RD53 drive... hmm. I tried powering it without it plugged in, just to see if it > at least sounded healthy; it spun up to a "sensible-sounding" > speed for maybe 15 seconds, then spun down again. I tried again, and it > remained spun-up, but the initial spin-down was hardly encouraging. > Did you hear the heads move? Spinning up and down again likely means it couldn't find the first track. Very likely to be stiction from the rubber bumper inside which has turned to goo. > With the drive actually hooked up to the controller, I'm getting "?54 RETRY" > messages when it's trying to boot - however, I'm not entirely sure what device > it's trying to boot from! Maybe it's attempting the TK50, or via Ethernet. I still > need to read up on that and work out how to force it to attempt a disk boot. > > One other issue is that the RD53 was in the second bay (and hooked up to the > associated cables) - it makes me wonder if it was just an auxiliary disk, and the > system originally had another drive in the first bay (containing actual OS) which > has been removed. Can't remember exactly, but not necessarily. You need to try commands like BOOT DUA0/1/2/3, but if the heads are sticking you won't get far. I would suggest net booting the machine as a satellite and then seeing if the local disk is visible to the OS. > > > Just be sure to follow the grant chain > > Yup, I *think* I've got my head around how that works! (along with the special > slots for CPU/RAM) > > cheers > > Jules From binarydinosaurs at icloud.com Sat Jan 27 18:03:43 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at icloud.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 00:03:43 +0000 Subject: TESTFDC In-Reply-To: References: <56181A29-DBEA-4F2A-A13C-B2F791528865@gmail.com> <8C1A9E0C-9768-4C55-81B1-2AC3066548FA@icloud.com> Message-ID: <775AD3D8-DF44-4DB5-9041-440A390283DA@icloud.com> > On 27 Jan 2018, at 22:58, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > >>>> Now where did I put that 8? drive... >>> >>> I'm using a Tandon 848 on mine. >> >> My pair are Tandons, they?re in a CPT8500 word processor which I?d also like to get going at some point. Any tips on coaxing them back into life? > > Nothing specific to the drive, but I think well of the FDADAP 8" floppy disk adapter to connect the drive to the controller: > > http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html Yep, I was looking at those yesterday, hooked in by the mention of an RX50. $40 including postage to the UK is a pretty decent price. Cheers, A From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 18:06:06 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 00:06:06 +0000 Subject: TESTFDC In-Reply-To: References: <56181A29-DBEA-4F2A-A13C-B2F791528865@gmail.com> <8C1A9E0C-9768-4C55-81B1-2AC3066548FA@icloud.com> Message-ID: <045CC637-51D0-41A9-AD44-9EECEFFE43F4@gmail.com> *sigh* Fat fingers again. > On 27 Jan 2018, at 22:58, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > >>>> Now where did I put that 8? drive... >>> >>> I'm using a Tandon 848 on mine. >> >> My pair are Tandons, they?re in a CPT8500 word processor which I?d also like to get going at some point. Any tips on coaxing them back into life? > > Nothing specific to the drive, but I think well of the FDADAP 8" floppy disk adapter to connect the drive to the controller: > > http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html Yep, I was looking at those yesterday, hooked in by the mention of an RX50. $40 including postage to the UK is a pretty decent price. Cheers, A ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jan 27 18:09:45 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 19:09:45 -0500 Subject: chyron 8 inch disks chyron IV - m4100ex-- sports disc - fonts - font load front compose etc Message-ID: <1613a192a84-1710-d51a7@webjas-vab007.srv.aolmail.net> chyron 8 inch disks chyron IV - ?m4100ex-- ? sports disc - fonts - font load?front?compose etc does anyone had ? this ?chyron and ?firing it ?up? ? some ?discs ?nice ?and ?clean come ?have ? ? foam ?stuck to?envelopes?.. ? maybe ?you have?something? we ?can use ?here.?since? I dont think ?we ?will have the chyron? ? ed# From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 18:29:04 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 19:29:04 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC In-Reply-To: <045CC637-51D0-41A9-AD44-9EECEFFE43F4@gmail.com> References: <56181A29-DBEA-4F2A-A13C-B2F791528865@gmail.com> <8C1A9E0C-9768-4C55-81B1-2AC3066548FA@icloud.com> <045CC637-51D0-41A9-AD44-9EECEFFE43F4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Another vote for the FDADAP. Could've built my own, but it's reasonably priced, handles TG43, does RX50, and I like supporting John's work. Thanks, Jonathan On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 7:06 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > *sigh* Fat fingers again. > > > On 27 Jan 2018, at 22:58, Mike Loewen via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > > >>>> Now where did I put that 8? drive... > >>> > >>> I'm using a Tandon 848 on mine. > >> > >> My pair are Tandons, they?re in a CPT8500 word processor which I?d also > like to get going at some point. Any tips on coaxing them back into life? > > > > Nothing specific to the drive, but I think well of the FDADAP 8" floppy > disk adapter to connect the drive to the controller: > > > > http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html > > Yep, I was looking at those yesterday, hooked in by the mention of an > RX50. $40 including postage to the UK is a pretty decent price. > > Cheers, > > A > > > ? > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards > w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs > f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 27 18:38:25 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 00:38:25 +0000 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I don't like most IPAs. I do like lagers and most ale's like Sierra Nevada's. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Berger via cctalk Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 12:54:59 PM To: Henry Bond via cctalk Subject: Re: Yeah for me IPA=India Pale Ale On 2018-01-27 2:45 PM, Henry Bond via cctalk wrote: > Isopropyl alcohol would be a sensible guess, I've not seen that > abbreviation before though . > > - H > > On Sat, Jan 27, 2018, 18:24 Adrian Stoness via cctech > wrote: > >> ipa as in beer? >> >> On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Carl Claunch via cctech < >> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> The IPA is heated to 60C before the ultrasound is able to remove the >> oxide >>> remnants, FWIW. >>> >>> While we can often get the entire smooth surface of the head clean with >>> swabs and IPA, it is very difficult to clean all the material that forms >> in >>> the cruciform trench recessed into the head (where the read/write and >> erase >>> coil poles are visible). >>> >>> Heads can seem clean to the naked eye, but a good stereo microscope will >>> insure that you have a clean and smooth surface. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Carl >>> >>> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 12:15:34 -0800 >>>> From: Fritz Mueller >>>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>>> >>>> Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads >>>> Message-ID: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA at fritzm.org> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >>>> >>>> I watched with great interest one of curiousmarc?s recent Alto videos, >>>> wherein they clean a Diablo drive head ultrasonically. I?ve been >>>> struggling a bit with my restored RK05 drives to completely clean the >>> heads >>>> after minor head crashes. Not being able to get them really sparkling >>>> clean makes me always worried about running the drives for more than a >>> few >>>> minutes at a time, and a little nervous every time I spin them up?. >>>> Scrubbing and scrubbing and scrubbing with IPA and kimwipes just >> doesn?t >>>> seem to get all the crud off. >>>> >>>> I do have an alignment pack that I could use to re-align the heads >> after >>>> removing them for a proper cleaning this way. Decent ultrasonic >> cleaners >>>> aren?t terribly expensive and might be nice to have around the shop >>> anyway >>>> (I could also do all my eyeglasses :-) >>>> >>>> In the video, the heads are submerged in IPA in a glass cylinder, which >>> is >>>> then placed in the ultrasonic bath. >>>> >>>> Has anybody on the list here done this and have tips/advice beyond what >>>> can be seen in the video? It looked very effective! I?m also having a >>>> little trouble sourcing the squat form glass graduated cylinder online. >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> ?FritzM. >>>> >>>> From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Jan 27 18:36:01 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 00:36:01 +0000 (WET) Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: <5447957d-da58-4acf-02ef-c32057157b30@gmail.com> References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> <0d4a7021-d944-9d1d-e5dd-b8def5aeda0e@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01QOD25YXYGK003AC7@beyondthepale.ie> > > With the drive actually hooked up to the controller, I'm getting "?54 > RETRY" messages when it's trying to boot - however, I'm not entirely sure > what device it's trying to boot from! Maybe it's attempting the TK50, or > via Ethernet. I still need to read up on that and work out how to force it > to attempt a disk boot. > On a VAXStation/MicroVAX 2000 (which could behave the same as or completely differently to an MV-II), "?54 RETRY" is what you get when attempting to boot from the network when nothing is responding (also, if I recall correctly, so take this with a giant pinch of salt...) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 27 19:11:19 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 19:11:19 -0600 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: <0d4a7021-d944-9d1d-e5dd-b8def5aeda0e@gmail.com> References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> <0d4a7021-d944-9d1d-e5dd-b8def5aeda0e@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5A6D2337.10109@pico-systems.com> On 01/27/2018 02:43 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > Well, there's someone's hand-written sticker on the top > saying it's a lowly RD51 - however the actual p/n sticker > says it's an RD53-A and the defect table lists it as > ST506, 85MB. > > Of course it probably doesn't work anyway ;-) > The likelihood of a 30+ year old MFM hard drive working is pretty small. If it DOES work, get the data off it as soon as possible, the grease in the bearings are likely to have turned into gunk and it won't last. >> If you start with just the M7606 - CPU and the M7608 - >> 4MB ram once >> you get a console cable built it shouldn't be too hard to >> get some >> basic signs of life. > > Yes, that's where I'm at right now... > > Console default is 8 data bits, 1 stop bit and no parity > (at whatever speed the switch is set to), correct? > > I'm getting an alternating F and 9 on the hex LED diag > display on the console panel, no output at all on my > terminal, and the M7606 starts with 4 solid red LEDs, then > a solid green, then the middle pair of the red LEDs start > a simultaneous slow flash on/off (while the outer two plus > the green remain steady) > MM, that doesn't sound good at all. The single LED on the console panel is supposed to count down from F as it runs through the on-board diags. It is supposed to send a 2-line (I think) description of the board rev level and ROM firmware level, and then do something like this: F.....E.....D.....C....B.....A.....9.....8....7 (this is the memory test, and can take a LONG time) and then continue, finally leaving you with a console prompt or a boot or boot failure message. Jon From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 19:16:49 2018 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 20:16:49 -0500 Subject: 3 computing events Message-ID: Three ?computing? events are happening: 1) The i-Pad was introduced by S. Jobs 8 yrs. ago and defined a ?new? computing paradigm for the masses. The reason I mention this event is because a young friend(20 yrs. old) said ?That?s ancient computing!? What is one to make of classic-computing then? 2) Bitcoin mining ? The energy usage is extreme because of GPUs. Was 16-bit computer era, employing the 80287, such an energy hog? 3) INTEL doesn?t seem to have been hurt by Meltdown & Specture financially- speaking. Had excellent earnings and profits for the last quarter but ?may? change this quarter. However, INTEL marches on going from 4004 to 7980XE. AMD was/in the picture but financially-wise? Happy computing all! Murray J From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 19:26:11 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 19:26:11 -0600 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: yea ipa's are to bitter have u had a saison though? On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 6:38 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I don't like most IPAs. I do like lagers and most ale's like Sierra > Nevada's. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Berger via > cctalk > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 12:54:59 PM > To: Henry Bond via cctalk > Subject: Re: > > Yeah for me IPA=India Pale Ale > > > On 2018-01-27 2:45 PM, Henry Bond via cctalk wrote: > > Isopropyl alcohol would be a sensible guess, I've not seen that > > abbreviation before though . > > > > - H > > > > On Sat, Jan 27, 2018, 18:24 Adrian Stoness via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> ipa as in beer? > >> > >> On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Carl Claunch via cctech < > >> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>> The IPA is heated to 60C before the ultrasound is able to remove the > >> oxide > >>> remnants, FWIW. > >>> > >>> While we can often get the entire smooth surface of the head clean with > >>> swabs and IPA, it is very difficult to clean all the material that > forms > >> in > >>> the cruciform trench recessed into the head (where the read/write and > >> erase > >>> coil poles are visible). > >>> > >>> Heads can seem clean to the naked eye, but a good stereo microscope > will > >>> insure that you have a clean and smooth surface. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Carl > >>> > >>> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 12:15:34 -0800 > >>>> From: Fritz Mueller > >>>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>>> > >>>> Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads > >>>> Message-ID: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA at fritzm.org> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > >>>> > >>>> I watched with great interest one of curiousmarc?s recent Alto videos, > >>>> wherein they clean a Diablo drive head ultrasonically. I?ve been > >>>> struggling a bit with my restored RK05 drives to completely clean the > >>> heads > >>>> after minor head crashes. Not being able to get them really sparkling > >>>> clean makes me always worried about running the drives for more than a > >>> few > >>>> minutes at a time, and a little nervous every time I spin them up?. > >>>> Scrubbing and scrubbing and scrubbing with IPA and kimwipes just > >> doesn?t > >>>> seem to get all the crud off. > >>>> > >>>> I do have an alignment pack that I could use to re-align the heads > >> after > >>>> removing them for a proper cleaning this way. Decent ultrasonic > >> cleaners > >>>> aren?t terribly expensive and might be nice to have around the shop > >>> anyway > >>>> (I could also do all my eyeglasses :-) > >>>> > >>>> In the video, the heads are submerged in IPA in a glass cylinder, > which > >>> is > >>>> then placed in the ultrasonic bath. > >>>> > >>>> Has anybody on the list here done this and have tips/advice beyond > what > >>>> can be seen in the video? It looked very effective! I?m also having > a > >>>> little trouble sourcing the squat form glass graduated cylinder > online. > >>>> > >>>> cheers, > >>>> ?FritzM. > >>>> > >>>> > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 20:35:16 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 18:35:16 -0800 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61943CDF-41A4-429F-932B-83F3DBE17738@gmail.com> Next video: cleaning heads in fragly brewed IPA (the beer). I bet it would work too. Ultrasound in hot solvent cleans stuff that no other method can. Marc > On Jan 27, 2018, at 5:26 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > yea ipa's are to bitter > > have u had a saison though? > > On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 6:38 PM, dwight via cctalk > wrote: > >> I don't like most IPAs. I do like lagers and most ale's like Sierra >> Nevada's. >> >> Dwight >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Berger via >> cctalk >> Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 12:54:59 PM >> To: Henry Bond via cctalk >> Subject: Re: >> >> Yeah for me IPA=India Pale Ale >> >> >>> On 2018-01-27 2:45 PM, Henry Bond via cctalk wrote: >>> Isopropyl alcohol would be a sensible guess, I've not seen that >>> abbreviation before though . >>> >>> - H >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 27, 2018, 18:24 Adrian Stoness via cctech < >> cctech at classiccmp.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> ipa as in beer? >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Carl Claunch via cctech < >>>> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The IPA is heated to 60C before the ultrasound is able to remove the >>>> oxide >>>>> remnants, FWIW. >>>>> >>>>> While we can often get the entire smooth surface of the head clean with >>>>> swabs and IPA, it is very difficult to clean all the material that >> forms >>>> in >>>>> the cruciform trench recessed into the head (where the read/write and >>>> erase >>>>> coil poles are visible). >>>>> >>>>> Heads can seem clean to the naked eye, but a good stereo microscope >> will >>>>> insure that you have a clean and smooth surface. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Carl >>>>> >>>>> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 12:15:34 -0800 >>>>>> From: Fritz Mueller >>>>>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads >>>>>> Message-ID: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA at fritzm.org> >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >>>>>> >>>>>> I watched with great interest one of curiousmarc?s recent Alto videos, >>>>>> wherein they clean a Diablo drive head ultrasonically. I?ve been >>>>>> struggling a bit with my restored RK05 drives to completely clean the >>>>> heads >>>>>> after minor head crashes. Not being able to get them really sparkling >>>>>> clean makes me always worried about running the drives for more than a >>>>> few >>>>>> minutes at a time, and a little nervous every time I spin them up?. >>>>>> Scrubbing and scrubbing and scrubbing with IPA and kimwipes just >>>> doesn?t >>>>>> seem to get all the crud off. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do have an alignment pack that I could use to re-align the heads >>>> after >>>>>> removing them for a proper cleaning this way. Decent ultrasonic >>>> cleaners >>>>>> aren?t terribly expensive and might be nice to have around the shop >>>>> anyway >>>>>> (I could also do all my eyeglasses :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> In the video, the heads are submerged in IPA in a glass cylinder, >> which >>>>> is >>>>>> then placed in the ultrasonic bath. >>>>>> >>>>>> Has anybody on the list here done this and have tips/advice beyond >> what >>>>>> can be seen in the video? It looked very effective! I?m also having >> a >>>>>> little trouble sourcing the squat form glass graduated cylinder >> online. >>>>>> >>>>>> cheers, >>>>>> ?FritzM. >>>>>> >>>>>> >> >> From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Jan 27 20:45:26 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 21:45:26 -0500 Subject: 3 computing events In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27fca0d7-881b-a3b5-f8b9-6090344da6e6@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-01-27 8:16 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > Three ?computing? events are happening: > > > > 1) The i-Pad ... > > > > 2) Bitcoin mining ? The energy usage is extreme because of GPUs. Was > 16-bit computer era, employing the 80287, such an energy hog? It's extreme because proof-of-work is required, and so the more machines you have doing the work (= the more energy expended), the quicker you can mint fantasy money. (Using GPUs actually does much _more_ work per Watt than other means, so they can't be blamed for this waste.) We usually try to _minimise_ the work in everything else we do with computers... and designs requiring proof-of-work don't seem sustainable. > > > > 3) INTEL doesn?t seem to have been hurt by Meltdown & Specture > financially- speaking. Its CEO sure wasn't, personally. --Toby > Had excellent earnings and profits for the last > quarter but ?may? change this quarter. However, INTEL marches on going from > 4004 to 7980XE. AMD was/in the picture but financially-wise? > > > > Happy computing all! > > > > Murray J > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 27 21:37:35 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 22:37:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: ADV11-A vs. ADV11-C and 22-bit Bus Message-ID: <20180128033735.30F2618C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mark Matlock > Any device which uses backplane pins BC1, BD1, BEl, BF1 or DC1, 001, > DEl, OF! Those last are probably typos for "DD1, DE1, DF1". > Several other pins are also tied to ground on that connector such as > BC2, BJ1, and BT1. Yeah, those are all standard Q22 ground pins. > When I look at the Board connector B pin C side 1 (component side) the BC1 > pin is tied to ground. .. So it looks like if I simply cut the trace > between the BC1 finger and its connection to ground on the board it > would become Q22 compatible. > Is it that simple? That would be my take on it, yes. As Jerry Weiss mentions, since it's not a DMA device, once you do that, it should be Q22-capable; all QBUS devices are supposed (per the QBUS spec) to use BBS7, along with BDAL0-12, to listen for register accesses, so the fact that it's not listening to BDAL18-21 should not be an issue. (Odd factoid: various QBUS CPU's drive various combinations of BDAL13-21 during references to the I/O page; I forget the details off the top of my head, but Dave Bridgham and I were just looking at that.) Noel From allisonportable at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 22:29:55 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 23:29:55 -0500 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/27/2018 12:04 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > On 01/26/2018 07:15 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >> After that... well, I need to work out how to get the entire supply >> assembly to start up while it's open, so that I can work on it >> outside the >> machine - then I can at least start looking for differences between >> the two >> supplies (boy, are those things complex, but maybe I'll get lucky and >> it's >> a bad solder joint or cap somewhere) > > OK, now I feel like an idiot :-) > > I started looking into this, and found that neither PSU would do > anything without being plugged into the (currently unpopulated) > backplane. My initial assumption was that there was some interaction > between the backplane and the "other" wires between it and the PSUs > (i.e. the ones that don't carry +5V or +12V). > > However, on a whim (and I really don't know why I did this) I plugged > the +5V PSU connectors up to the backplane, but left the others > (carrying +12V and the other signals) unplugged. Doing that, things > behaved as before - the top PSU started operating normally, and the > lower PSU started putting out around 2.5V. > > It got me wondering though - maybe it was simply a load issue, and > with my dummy loads I was right at the (lower) limit for the PSU > regulation to work; perhaps I had just enough for the top PSU to > operate normally (but only with the backplane hooked up too) and the > lower PSU (for whatever reason) wanted just that little bit more than > the top one. > > Anyway, I tweaked my loads to draw a little more current - and bingo! > I'm now getting stable +5V and +12V outputs on both PSUs, a working > card cage fan, and the DC OK light comes on. > > So, in summary... with no load at all, the PSUs do nothing, but with > *some* load they either work OK, or the regulation is goofy and the > outputs are low. > > Time to add CPU/memory in, wire up a console cable and see what > happens, I guess. > > cheers > > Jules > The PSUs used are a switching type and do not behave well with out about a 5-10% load as a minimum.? They must have a load. NOTE: the door switch does only one thing and that is to run the fans at 100% when the covers are off.? When they are on then the switch allows the fan speed to be controlled by temperature. FYI all this is covered in the BA123/microVAC manuals.? Seriously, if your not familiar with Qbus and microVAX boxes RTFM and as many as you can find. Allison From phil at ultimate.com Sat Jan 27 23:46:41 2018 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 00:46:41 -0500 Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: <7wtvvvkziq.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wtvvvkziq.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <201801280546.w0S5kf50064952@ultimate.com> FWIW, Found these bits in the TOPS-10 7.04 sources: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/tops10_704_monitoranf_bb-x140c-sb/01/10,7/anf10/chk11.p11.html Search for ";DETERMINE THE DL10 BASE ADDRESS" Which tries setting the following bit pattern: DL.CNX!DL.CPE!DL.CWC!DL.11C Those bits and others can be found in: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/tops10_703_distr_bb-x140b-sb/02/10,7/703anf/s.p11.html .SBTTL DL10 HARDWARE BITS ; ; DL10 - UNIBUS TO DECSYSTEM-10 MEMORY BUS INTERFACE ; .IIF NDF DL.VEC,DL.VEC= 170 ; VECTOR ADR FOR DL10 DL.LVL= 4 ; CHANNEL FIVE DL.11I= B15 ; BIT 15 - 11 INT(INTERRUPTS IF 11-INT-ENB SET) DL.11C= B14 ; BIT 14 - CLEAR 11 INT DL.10I= B13 ; BIT 13 - 10 INT DL.10C= B12 ; BIT 12 - CLEAR 10 INT DL.NXM= B11 ; BIT 11 - NXM(INTERRUPTS IF ERR ENB SET) DL.CNX= B10 ; BIT 10 - CLEAR NXM DL.PAR= B9 ; BIT 09 - PAR ERR(INTERRUPTS IF ERR ENB SET) DL.CPE= B8 ; BIT 08 - CLEAR PAR ERR DL.WCO= B7 ; BIT 07 - WCOV(INTERRUPTS IF ERR ENB SET) DL.CWC= B6 ; BIT 06 - CLEAR WCOV DL.PEN= B5 ; BIT 05 - PORT ENABLE DLPENB= DL.PEN ; DL.B04= B4 ; BIT 04 - (GUESS !) DL.ERE= B3 ; BIT 03 - ERR ENABLE DL.INE= B2 ; BIT 02 - 11 INT ENB DL.B01= B1 ; BITS 00 & 01 - PIA DL.B00= B0 ; The (11 side) driver code for the DL10 is in: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/tops10_704_monitoranf_bb-x140c-sb/01/10,7/anf10/dndl10.p11.html .SBTTL DNDL10 - PDP-10/PDP-11 INTERFACE 21 JUL 82 and defines a memory window (I'm assuming only the "STS" word contains the above bits, and the rest is shared memory) using a window pointer determinted by chk11 (see above): .SBTTL DL10 WINDOW BLOCK DL ;THIS IS THE DL-10 WINDOW X STS ;DL10 STATUS REGISTER X ,2 ;UNUSED X NAM ;PROGRAM NAME BYTE POINTER (SIXBIT) X ,1 ;NOT USED X 11A ;PDP-11 ALIVE INDICATOR. INCREMENTED BY ; BY THE TEN ONCE/SECOND, SET TO 0 BY ; THE 11. IF <2 THEN 11 IS ALIVE. X STP ;STOP CODE (FOR WHEN -11 DIES) X DWN ;3 STATE SWITCH ; 1 => UP AND RUNNING ; 0 => DOWN, COMPLAIN TO THE OPERATOR ; -1 => DOWN BUT DON'T COMPLAIN X UPT ;NOT USED? X STA ;GLOBAL STATE WORD DLS.DP=1 ;DEPOSIT 11 CORE DLS.EX=2 ;EXAMIN 11 CORE GBADDR=4 ; DL.ADR IS BAD GHOLD=10 ; HOLD EVERYTHING X ADR ;ADDRESS FOR EXAMINE/DEPOSITE IN 11 MEMORY X DAT ;CONTENTS OF THE EXAMINE/DEPOSITE X RLN ;MAXIMUM MESSAGE LENGTH 11 WILL ACCEPT X MOD ;DL-10 MODIFICATION NUMBER WINVER=1 ;WINDOW VERSION NUMVER X 10A ;PDP-10 ALIVE INDICATOR. INCREMEMTED BY ; THE 11 ONCE/SECOND, SET -1 BY THE 10. ; IF <= 1, THE 10 IS ALIVE X 10S ;STATUS OF THE 10 ; 0 => INITIAL VALUE. NOTHING GOING ON ; 1 => STARTED INITIALIZATION ; -1 => UP AND RUNNING X 11S ;STATUS OF THE 11. ; 0 => INITIAL VALUE. NOTHING GOING ON ; 1 => STARTED INITIALIZATION ; -1 => UP AND RUNNING X IST ;INPUT STATUS FLABS ; B1 = FIRST PART ; B2 = SECOND PART X ICT ;INPUT COUNT (10'S POINT OF VIEW) X IDT ;INPUT DATA APPEARS HERE X ,1 ;SECOND INPUT POINTER'S COUNT X ,1 ;SECOND INPUT POINTER'S DATA X OST ;OUTPUT FLAGS ; B0 SAYS OUTPUT READY TO TO ; B1-B4 SPECIFY THE CONVERSION ; 1 => LPT COMPRESSION ; 2 => BINARY (12 BIT) CONVERSION X OCT ;FIRST OUTPUT BUFFER'S LENGTH X ODT ;FIRST OUTPUT BUFFER'S DATA X ,1 ;SECOND BUFFERS COUNT X ,1 ;SECOND BUFFERS DATA X ,1 ;THIRD BUFFERS LENGTH X ,1 ;THIRD BUFFERS DATA ;END OF DL-10 WINDOW A fun bit is: ;NOW TELL THE -10 THAT WE'RE UP TOO! ADD #DL.NAM-DL.DAT,R2 ;RELOCATE R2 TO POINT TO THE NAME WORD MOVB #'D-40,(R2) ;SEND OUR NAME TO THE -10 MOVB #'C-40,(R2) MOVB #'7-40,(R2) MOVB #'5-40,(R2) In http://www.ultimate.com/phil/pdp10/10periphs I have: DC75: sync (PDP-11/15 & DS11's via DL10) DN8x code base! (cf DAS85?) so perhaps the front end that was progenitor of the ANF10 code? In the above "DL10 WINDOW" definition, NAM is declared "PROGRAM NAME BYTE POINTER (SIXBIT)", and as in SIXBIT, the values are ASCII - 40 (octal) but stored in to 8 bit locations in the '11, which suggests that the entire "window" maps the low order six bits of PDP-11 locations in to 6 bits in a PDP-10 word! Definitions for the '10 side are created with the MAP76 macro in http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/tops10_704_monitoranf_bb-x140c-sb/01/10,7/mon/s.mac.html The following follow the DLMAP macro (which expands the MAP76 macro): ;LINE PARAMETER CONTROL MESSAGES FOR THE DC76 XP LPCSPD,2 ;SET LINE SPEED (RECEIVE*10+TRANSMIT) XP LPCABR,4 ;ENABLE AUTO BAUD RATE DETECT XP LPCELE,6 ;SET TYPE ELEMENT XP LPCAPL,10 ;SET/CLEAR APL MODE XP LPCRVB,12 ;SET/CLEAR REVERSE BREAK XP LPCUKB,14 ;UNLOCK KEYBOARD XP LPCTDY,16 ;SET/CLEAR TIDY BIT ;TYPES OF DL-10 FRONT ENDS XP TP.D76,1 ;FRONT END IS A DC76 XP TP.D44,2 ;FRONT END IS A DC44 XP TP.D47,3 ;FRONT END COMBINES DC44 AND DC76 XP TP.D75,4 ;OLD DECSYNC PROTOCOL XP TP.D60,5 ;DN60 FRONT END XP TP.D85,6 ;NEW DDCMP FRONT END XP TP.D78,7 ;FRONT END IS A DAS78 ;TYPES OF DTE-20 FRONT ENDS XP DT.RSX,1 ;RSX20F XP DT.ANF,2 ;ANF10 XP DT.IBM,3 ;IBM (DN60) XP DT.DNT,4 ;DECNET The '11 side DTE driver is: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/tops10_704_monitoranf_bb-x140c-sb/01/10,7/anf10/dndte.p11.html .SBTTL DNDTE - KL10/PDP-11 INTERFACE 11 FEB 88 and for completeness, the '10 side driver for the DTE: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/tops10_704_monitoranf_bb-x140c-sb/01/10,7/mon/dteser.mac.html DTE definitions: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/tops10_704_monitoranf_bb-x140c-sb/01/10,7/mon/dteprm.mac.html From lars at nocrew.org Sun Jan 28 06:12:10 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 12:12:10 +0000 Subject: DL10 documentation In-Reply-To: <201801280546.w0S5kf50064952@ultimate.com> (Phil Budne's message of "Sun, 28 Jan 2018 00:46:41 -0500") References: <7wtvvvkziq.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <201801280546.w0S5kf50064952@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <7wwp02p4h1.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Phil Budne wrote: > DL.11I= B15 ; BIT 15 - 11 INT(INTERRUPTS IF 11-INT-ENB SET) > DL.11C= B14 ; BIT 14 - CLEAR 11 INT > DL.10I= B13 ; BIT 13 - 10 INT > DL.10C= B12 ; BIT 12 - CLEAR 10 INT > DL.NXM= B11 ; BIT 11 - NXM(INTERRUPTS IF ERR ENB SET) > DL.CNX= B10 ; BIT 10 - CLEAR NXM > DL.PAR= B9 ; BIT 09 - PAR ERR(INTERRUPTS IF ERR ENB SET) > DL.CPE= B8 ; BIT 08 - CLEAR PAR ERR > DL.WCO= B7 ; BIT 07 - WCOV(INTERRUPTS IF ERR ENB SET) > DL.CWC= B6 ; BIT 06 - CLEAR WCOV > DL.PEN= B5 ; BIT 05 - PORT ENABLE > DLPENB= DL.PEN ; > DL.B04= B4 ; BIT 04 - (GUESS !) > DL.ERE= B3 ; BIT 03 - ERR ENABLE > DL.INE= B2 ; BIT 02 - 11 INT ENB > DL.B01= B1 ; BITS 00 & 01 - PIA > DL.B00= B0 ; Thanks, good find! I linked to your message from the GitHub issue. From coreyvcf at gmail.com Sun Jan 28 05:09:01 2018 From: coreyvcf at gmail.com (corey cohen) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 06:09:01 -0500 Subject: Can you run Apple Lisa Workshop and LIsa OS on the same Hard-drive? Message-ID: Or do I need an external profile for my 2/10 if I want to still use LOS. Thanks, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Jan 28 09:25:27 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 15:25:27 +0000 Subject: Can you run Apple Lisa Workshop and LIsa OS on the same Hard-drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78EF4CAA-A8FC-4A42-8181-237C7B713086@gmail.com> > On 28 Jan 2018, at 11:09, corey cohen via cctalk wrote: > > Or do I need an external profile for my 2/10 if I want to still use LOS. > > Thanks, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? It?s been a while since I did this but going from memory you?ll need an external ProFile to boot from if your LOS install is on the internal widget. You can choose which drive to boot from at powerup. ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 28 09:54:54 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 10:54:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads Message-ID: <20180128155454.EEE0F18C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mark J. Blair > I have a single decpack cartridge ... It's marked "decpack 2200 BPI-12" > and has 12 sector notches in the hub. Does that mean that it was most > likely used with an RK05 drive in a PDP-11 system? Yes. > I hope that I can procure a matching drive for it one of these days The come by occasionally on eBait; here's the most recent one (October last year): http://www.ebay.com/itm/122452738128 They're usually mildly pricy, alas. Noel From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Sun Jan 28 10:00:05 2018 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 17:00:05 +0100 Subject: Can you run Apple Lisa Workshop and LIsa OS on the same Hard-drive? In-Reply-To: <78EF4CAA-A8FC-4A42-8181-237C7B713086@gmail.com> References: <78EF4CAA-A8FC-4A42-8181-237C7B713086@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 28.01.2018 16:25, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > >> On 28 Jan 2018, at 11:09, corey cohen via cctalk wrote: >> >> Or do I need an external profile for my 2/10 if I want to still use LOS. >> One alternative is to go for an IdeFile : my Lisa has a 260MB IDE harddisk, seven partitions, and 6 different OS's installed. All internally. Not very original, but handy indeed. Jos From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Jan 28 10:06:17 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 16:06:17 +0000 Subject: Can you run Apple Lisa Workshop and LIsa OS on the same Hard-drive? In-Reply-To: References: <78EF4CAA-A8FC-4A42-8181-237C7B713086@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On 28 Jan 2018, at 16:00, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > > On 28.01.2018 16:25, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >>> On 28 Jan 2018, at 11:09, corey cohen via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Or do I need an external profile for my 2/10 if I want to still use LOS. >>> > > One alternative is to go for an IdeFile : my Lisa has a 260MB IDE harddisk, seven partitions, and 6 different OS's installed. > All internally. 6 on a Lisa? I can only think of LOS, XENIX, Workshop. Hm, I?ve got David T Craig?s Lisa CDs kicking around somewhere, I wonder what else is on those. ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs From ray at arachelian.com Sun Jan 28 10:11:58 2018 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 11:11:58 -0500 Subject: Can you run Apple Lisa Workshop and LIsa OS on the same Hard-drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/28/18 06:09, corey cohen via cctalk wrote: > Or do I need an external profile for my 2/10 if I want to still use LOS. > Sure, it's possible for LOS to coexist with LPW on the same hard drive, and you can use that to build LOS apps in LPW, then restart and use them in LOS. Installation instructions can be found on page "1-3" of: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/workshop_3.0/Lisa_Workshop_3.0_Users_Guide_1984.pdf There's an option to share space with MacWorks, I don't think you'll want to do that as you probably won't have enough space for all 3. If you have a dual parallel port card, you could get upto two more ProFile drives, or you could get an X/Profile or IDEfile. I'd backup your LOS documents to floppies before installing LPW just to be sure you don't lose them. Once you do this, when you boot, you'll get this "Lisa Environments" selector screen: http://toastytech.com/guis/lisawsenviron.png (from http://toastytech.com/guis/lisa3.html ) From ray at arachelian.com Sun Jan 28 10:14:57 2018 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 11:14:57 -0500 Subject: Can you run Apple Lisa Workshop and LIsa OS on the same Hard-drive? In-Reply-To: References: <78EF4CAA-A8FC-4A42-8181-237C7B713086@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8834963d-7fdc-4045-e57a-2ea5a180cab9@arachelian.com> On 01/28/18 11:06, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > 6 on a Lisa? I can only think of LOS, XENIX, Workshop. Hm, I?ve got David T Craig?s Lisa CDs kicking around somewhere, I wonder what else is on those. I mean, there's LOS2, LPW2, LOS3, LPW3, UniPlus, Xenix.? Not sure if Monitor (a very simple Pascal based OS) will install on a hard drive.? There's also some GEMDOS image too, but likely that's floppy only. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Jan 28 10:34:59 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 16:34:59 +0000 Subject: Can you run Apple Lisa Workshop and LIsa OS on the same Hard-drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09BAA40D-B82A-4E7A-B22C-E8E4A336517A@gmail.com> > On 28 Jan 2018, at 16:11, Ray Arachelian via cctalk wrote: > > On 01/28/18 06:09, corey cohen via cctalk wrote: >> Or do I need an external profile for my 2/10 if I want to still use LOS. >> > > Sure, it's possible for LOS to coexist with LPW on the same hard drive, > and you can use that to build LOS apps in LPW, then restart and use them > in LOS. > > Installation instructions can be found on page "1-3" of: > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/workshop_3.0/Lisa_Workshop_3.0_Users_Guide_1984.pdf Oh cool. That?s something else added to The List for when I get enough tuits :) Cheers A ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs From coreyvcf at gmail.com Sun Jan 28 10:58:33 2018 From: coreyvcf at gmail.com (corey cohen) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 11:58:33 -0500 Subject: Can you run Apple Lisa Workshop and LIsa OS on the same Hard-drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61EB0431-9083-4F90-B892-65EF80E61B2B@gmail.com> Thanks. The documentation was confusing as I expected it to be clearer that they could coexist. So if I run the installer but don?t select erase drive I should be fine. FYI. I am using an XProfile emulating the widget but don?t want to keep swapping CF cards or changing switches to select different ?Stars?. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Jan 28, 2018, at 11:11 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > >> On 01/28/18 06:09, corey cohen via cctalk wrote: >> Or do I need an external profile for my 2/10 if I want to still use LOS. >> > > Sure, it's possible for LOS to coexist with LPW on the same hard drive, > and you can use that to build LOS apps in LPW, then restart and use them > in LOS. > > Installation instructions can be found on page "1-3" of: > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/workshop_3.0/Lisa_Workshop_3.0_Users_Guide_1984.pdf > > There's an option to share space with MacWorks, I don't think you'll > want to do that as you probably won't have enough space for all 3. > > If you have a dual parallel port card, you could get upto two more > ProFile drives, or you could get an X/Profile or IDEfile. > > > I'd backup your LOS documents to floppies before installing LPW just to > be sure you don't lose them. > > Once you do this, when you boot, you'll get this "Lisa Environments" > selector screen: http://toastytech.com/guis/lisawsenviron.png > (from http://toastytech.com/guis/lisa3.html ) > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 28 12:53:44 2018 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 18:53:44 +0000 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: <5447957d-da58-4acf-02ef-c32057157b30@gmail.com> References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> <0d4a7021-d944-9d1d-e5dd-b8def5aeda0e@gmail.com> <5447957d-da58-4acf-02ef-c32057157b30@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 27/01/18 23:38, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > > With the drive actually hooked up to the controller, I'm getting "?54 > RETRY" messages when it's trying to boot - however, I'm not entirely > sure what device it's trying to boot from! Maybe it's attempting the > TK50, or via Ethernet. I still need to read up on that and work out > how to force it to attempt a disk boot. > B DUA0 should do it (although you may have yours set up for DUA1 or whatever depending on the drive jumpers). > One other issue is that the RD53 was in the second bay (and hooked up > to the associated cables) - it makes me wonder if it was just an > auxiliary disk, and the system originally had another drive in the > first bay (containing actual OS) which has been removed. > I think you get a different message if the disk is there but it has no valid boot block. If you had a later CPU (say the KA650) and anything other than the very earliest ROM (which may never have made it out to the field) then you get a bunch of additional commands (like SHOW DEVICE) which would help diagnose what's what. You would be able to tell whether the M7555 was visible at the correct address, for example. The suggestion of booting it as a satellite from a VMS cluster node is a good idea (although if you've never set this up before then it may take you some time to get it set up properly). SIMH makes this quite easy I think. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From mark at matlockfamily.com Sun Jan 28 12:23:27 2018 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 12:23:27 -0600 Subject: ADV11-A vs. ADV11-C and 22-bit Bus Message-ID: Jerry, Noel, Thanks for your feedback. Also, Noel was correct on the typos I made on DD1, DE1, and DF1. I was copying from a scanned .pdf and some strange OCR translation was occurring and I missed correcting those. Yesterday I stuck the ADV11-A in a MINC-23 with 256 KB memory and verified that it worked. The CSR is different than a MNCAD and the voltage range bits may be different, but when I connected a 40 pin cable and a IDE to screw terminal connector on the I could match up the +4.5 and -4.5 reference voltage signals with the diagram with the screw terminals and then make voltage changes on channel 0 and see the A/D counts change. Today, I cut the BDAL18 BC1 trace to ground, verified it still worked in the MINC, then moved it to a PDP-11/73 RSX11M+ system I use for hardware testing. The RSX system was not configured for this card and the default 400 vector conflicts (I think) with the bottom of kernel stack so I?ll need to either move the vector switches on the card down or re-sysgen this test RSX system. Thus, the only quick testing I could do is via the CSR. Also, to make it easy to see values change I used the 2 digit LED display next to the console port to display the least significant bits of the readings. This is a technique I use to debug interrupt routines as you can write a 2 digit octal number with a simple MOV. I didn?t loop on the status bit because RSX is multiuser/tasking, but just used a 1 second mark time to assure the conversion was done. This would be changed to an interrupt service routine once I fix the vector issue. Using the LED display made the test code very simple: .TITLE ADTST .ENABL LC .IDENT /280118/ ; TKB commands: IDLE/PR:5/-FP=IDLE .MCALL EXIT$S MRKT$S WTSE$S LEDCSR = 177524 ADCSR = 170400 ADBUF = 170402 .even LEDS: MOV #177777,R0 MOV #100,R1 ; COUNT 10$: MOV R0,@#LEDCSR ; Display inverted contents of R0 CLR @#ADCSR ; Clear A/D status register INC @#ADCSR ; START A/D MRKT$S #1,#1,#2 ; Set Mark Time for 1 sec on eflg #1 WTSE$S #1 ; Wait for eflg #1 MOV @#ADBUF,R0 ; Get A/D value BIS #177700,R0 ; Set all bits high but lower 100 ; DEC R0 ; this line counts to 77 octal on display SOB R1,10$ MOV #177777,@#LEDCSR ; Reset LEDs to . EXIT$S .END LEDS So Noel and Jerry, you are correct it is that simple. If the A/D was DMA, that would be another situation (like the RX02 controller). Best Regards, Mark From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jan 28 20:35:37 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 20:35:37 -0600 Subject: DEC H7260 PSU fault In-Reply-To: References: <6ee3350b-ec07-7a42-8909-6c395787d587@gmail.com> <10e2278f-e63d-c463-4e39-c10080165a69@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/27/2018 10:29 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > FYI all this is covered in the BA123/microVAC manuals. Seriously, if > your not familiar with Qbus and microVAX boxes > RTFM and as many as you can find. The 630QB tech manual seems to be pretty comprehensive, and I have digested that one now, I think :-) My RD53 is definitely unwell, though - sometimes the speed fluctuates, and other times it sounds like it's stable (and I can hear the heads move) but talking to it is a no-go. I've no idea what (if anything) might be on it anyway, though - as set up when I got it, it was in the second drive bay (and hooked up via some rather flaky non-DEC cables) I'm not sure at the moment where I want to proceed from here; net-booting might be an option, but I'm not sure if I have any transceivers on this side of the Atlantic. cheers Jules From jsw at ieee.org Sun Jan 28 21:20:04 2018 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 21:20:04 -0600 Subject: ADV11-A vs. ADV11-C and 22-bit Bus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <640199AB-052A-4F17-916F-7DA7A731550D@ieee.org> > On Jan 28, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Mark Matlock via cctech wrote: > > Jerry, Noel, > > Thanks for your feedback. Also, Noel was correct on the typos I made on DD1, DE1, and DF1. I was copying from a scanned .pdf and some strange OCR translation was occurring and I missed correcting those. > > Yesterday I stuck the ADV11-A in a MINC-23 with 256 KB memory and verified that it worked. The CSR is different than a MNCAD and the voltage range bits may be different, but when I connected a 40 pin cable and a IDE to screw terminal connector on the I could match up the +4.5 and -4.5 reference voltage signals with the diagram with the screw terminals and then make voltage changes on channel 0 and see the A/D counts change. > > Today, I cut the BDAL18 BC1 trace to ground, verified it still worked in the MINC, then moved it to a PDP-11/73 RSX11M+ system I use for hardware testing. The RSX system was not configured for this card and the default 400 vector conflicts (I think) with the bottom of kernel stack so I?ll need to either move the vector switches on the card down or re-sysgen this test RSX system. Thus, the only quick testing I could do is via the CSR. > > Also, to make it easy to see values change I used the 2 digit LED display next to the console port to display the least significant bits of the readings. This is a technique I use to debug interrupt routines as you can write a 2 digit octal number with a simple MOV. > > I didn?t loop on the status bit because RSX is multiuser/tasking, but just used a 1 second mark time to assure the conversion was done. This would be changed to an interrupt service routine once I fix the vector issue. Using the LED display made the test code very simple: > > ?. > > So Noel and Jerry, you are correct it is that simple. If the A/D was DMA, that would be another situation (like the RX02 controller). > > Best Regards, > Mark Glad to hear that the surgery was a success. Just shows that if you do research and are careful you can make good use of these cards. The DMA Qbus cards that only use 16 bit or 18 bit addressing can still be used in a 22bit OS in most cases. For example in RT11/TSX+ there are DY handlers utilize a low memory buffer that allows their use. Just a tad bit slower with an 11/73 if the IO request is over the 18 bit boundary. Jerry jsw at ieee.org From cramcram at gmail.com Sun Jan 28 22:56:08 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 20:56:08 -0800 Subject: A couple of RL02 questions Message-ID: I've got two RL02 units. One is a parts unit and has an access plate for the door solenoid. I can open it. The other has no access plate nor is there a cutout for one. How do I open this cover with the power off? This is a newer unit as it has head lock screws on the bottom of the drive. The second question has to do with rack mounting. I want to mount this in a H960 cabinet but will obviously need to slide it out to replace packs. All the unit has is a thin rail on both sides that is riveted to the unit. It looks like chassis slides were there originally. Does anyone have either the DEC part # for the slides or a contemporary part # for one that will work? Thanks, Marc From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jan 29 00:17:31 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 22:17:31 -0800 Subject: A couple of RL02 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9605668A-0B0F-480E-B8F1-543403EE5170@nf6x.net> > On Jan 28, 2018, at 20:56, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > > I've got two RL02 units. One is a parts unit and has an access plate for > the door solenoid. I can open it. The other has no access plate nor is > there a cutout for one. How do I open this cover with the power off? This > is a newer unit as it has head lock screws on the bottom of the drive. All of my RL02 drives are the ones without the solenoid access covers. They're still easy to open without power. Loosen the four screws holding down the rear portion of the plastic top cover. Lift it up a bit where it and the door are hinged together, and then you should be able to unlatch the door. You should only need to lift it a quarter inch or so to let the door latch clear the interlock solenoid pin. If I recall correctly, the screws on the bottom are to keep the spindle motor from bouncing around. The heads are locked in place by a little metal plate in the disk cartridge compartment, which blocks them from sliding out of the parked position. Loosen the single screw holding the plate in place, then rotate it 90 degrees to cover or uncover the ends of the heads. > The second question has to do with rack mounting. I want to mount this in > a H960 cabinet but will obviously need to slide it out to replace packs. > All the unit has is a thin rail on both sides that is riveted to the unit. > It looks like chassis slides were there originally. Does anyone have > either the DEC part # for the slides or a contemporary part # for one that > will work? There are rails which bolt into the rack, and then the drive sits on top of the rails using those sheet metal brackets riveted onto the sides of the drive. I don't have any spares; I don't even have enough for all of my drives. I may be able to dig up the part numbers if somebody else doesn't pipe up first. They're listed in the maintenance prints. I am not aware of any generic modern rails which work at this time. In my VAX-11/730, the RL02 is installed at the very top of the short rack (which doesn't have a top cover), so it is accessible without sliding it out of the rack. It still has the slides, but it's normally strapped in place by a shipping hook at the back of the rack. I've thought about making a top which rests on the side panels of the rack and removing the shipping hook, so I can set stuff (such as a terminal?) on top of the system and then slide out the drive to change packs. Good luck! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 29 06:56:50 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 13:56:50 +0100 Subject: Computer Museum in Brno, CZ Message-ID: I was at a small technical conference last weekend (www.devconf.cz) at the Faculty of Informatics, Brno Masaryk University. https://www.fi.muni.cz/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaryk_University What I didn't know is that it has its own small museum of computing. I enjoyed it a lot. There's a good range of Sinclair kit and clones, including various real ZX Spectrum machines (48, Plus, 128 with vanishingly rare numeric keypad, Plus 2, Plus 2A, Plus 3, Interface 1 and Microdrives, MGT +D, Opus Discovery) and clones including Soviet (Orel BK-08), Polish (CZ Spectrum 48) and Czechoslovakian (Didaktik Gama, Kompakt and Kompakt M, with rare built-in 3?" floppy drive) and a SAM Coup?. There are other Czechoslovak machines, micros and minis and mainframe parts. They have an HP 3000, a PDP-11/34 and multiple RL02s, with both VT-120 and VT-220) and a Soviet PDP-11 clone. Mechanical and early electronic calculators. And a mediaeval clock! In the unlikely even folk are passing, it's well worth a visit. I spent a happy couple of hours in there. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Mon Jan 29 07:21:21 2018 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 13:21:21 +0000 Subject: A couple of RL02 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87d11sreb2.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> > I've got two RL02 units. One is a parts unit and has an access plate for > the door solenoid. I can open it. The other has no access plate nor is > there a cutout for one. How do I open this cover with the power off? This > is a newer unit as it has head lock screws on the bottom of the drive. Unscrew the panel at the rear top. You can wiggle the cover open when this is hinged up. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 29 08:08:49 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 09:08:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: A couple of RL02 questions Message-ID: <20180129140849.70DD018C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Marc Howard > All the unit has is a thin rail on both sides that is riveted to the > unit. It looks like chassis slides were there originally. Does anyone > have either the DEC part # for the slides I sent these to the list a while back, and never added them to the CHWiki once we gained access to it; I have now added them there: http://gunkies.org/wiki/RL0x_disk_drive#Installation Note that i) they are handed, so one needs an L and a R (I have extra lefts, and would like to trade some for rights), and ii) the same slides are used on other DEC drives, e.g. the RA81. Noel From dimitris.theo.gr at gmail.com Mon Jan 29 08:22:45 2018 From: dimitris.theo.gr at gmail.com (Dimitris Theodoropoulos) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 16:22:45 +0200 Subject: X11 expertise on ancient HW sought... (4-plane visual (overlay) via X-server on MS-WIndows) Message-ID: Sorry for undiggind this subject so many years later, but have you found a solution to your problem? I am facing exactly the same issue, and i have tried all possible windows X server options without success. The only possibility I am working with is with a Mac OS X server, which reports a 5-bit visual. From web at loomcom.com Mon Jan 29 12:52:20 2018 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 10:52:20 -0800 Subject: AT&T 615MT terminal docs or info Message-ID: <87372o33bv.fsf@loomcom.com> Hi folks, I have a couple of AT&T 615MT terminals I'd like to get more information on. I understand they're capable of running Layers (mouseless) on System V UNIX, but other than that I have no idea what features they have. If you have any 615MT documentation, could you please let me know? All the best, -Seth -- Seth Morabito https://loomcom.com/ web at loomcom.com From dab at froghouse.org Mon Jan 29 15:06:39 2018 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 16:06:39 -0500 Subject: QSIC update - v6 Unix boots and runs Message-ID: <5b223d91-61ac-2233-22af-35b5c1d35940@froghouse.org> For those of you who are following along with our QSIC project, today we booted v6 Unix successfully for the first time.? We'd first tried this a week or two back but discovered that Unix does use partial block reads and writes after all and I hadn't implemented those yet.? We're running this on an 11/23 using the QSIC with an SD card emulating a couple RK05s. Moving on to a small RAM disk next so we don't have to swap off the flash memory.? After that, either a larger RAM disk using the SDRAM or an RP11 to get larger disks than RK05s. We're getting close to the time when we need to think about making our own circuit board rather than using the wire-wrap prototype we've been having fun with so far. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 29 15:39:56 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 16:39:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: QSIC update - v6 Unix boots and runs Message-ID: <20180129213956.12F6018C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: David Bridgham > today we booted v6 Unix successfully for the first time. As in, the OS image was loaded from the SD card, then started up using only the SD card for 'disk'. So this is a pretty major milestone. It's been a long road (I just looked, and we started on this in the summer of 2015), but we're finally getting there! The Unix file system, including the OS and all the various bits and pieces needed, like /bin/sh, etc, was prepared on a simulator (stock V6 won't run on a /23, which has no switch register), and then loaded into the SD card using 'dd' running on a Linux box. Our emulated RK11 doesn't do a perfect job of emulating an RK11 yet (e.g. for some reason we haven't yet looked into, the BDV11 ROM code won't load the bootstrap off the 'disk'; Dave had to manually load in an RK bootstrap using ODT), but enough is now working to let Unix load and run. > Unix does use partial block reads and writes after all For swapping, not for file-system I/O (which is all block-based). > We're getting close to the time when we need to think about making our > own circuit board rather than using the wire-wrap prototype we've been > having fun with so far. At which point we'll be able to supply them to anyone who wants one... It will be a while yet, but I think we are 'over the hump' on the project, with the OS booting and running properly. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 29 15:30:08 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 16:30:08 -0500 Subject: QSIC update - v6 Unix boots and runs In-Reply-To: <5b223d91-61ac-2233-22af-35b5c1d35940@froghouse.org> References: <5b223d91-61ac-2233-22af-35b5c1d35940@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <38A72F4D-A138-4E50-BDBC-C77FA640DD28@comcast.net> > On Jan 29, 2018, at 4:06 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > > For those of you who are following along with our QSIC project, today we > booted v6 Unix successfully for the first time. We'd first tried this a > week or two back but discovered that Unix does use partial block reads > and writes after all and I hadn't implemented those yet. FWIW, so does RT11, and in the case of writes, it requires the rest of the block to be zero-filled. Not everything depends on this, but some parts do; I think Fortran is one. I remember this because I had to handle it in the driver for the RC11, since it has a 64 byte blocksize. paul From dab at froghouse.org Mon Jan 29 15:55:22 2018 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 16:55:22 -0500 Subject: QSIC update - v6 Unix boots and runs In-Reply-To: <38A72F4D-A138-4E50-BDBC-C77FA640DD28@comcast.net> References: <5b223d91-61ac-2233-22af-35b5c1d35940@froghouse.org> <38A72F4D-A138-4E50-BDBC-C77FA640DD28@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2bb7f0e3-e8cf-d49c-583d-20e9fae70a25@froghouse.org> > FWIW, so does RT11, and in the case of writes, it requires the rest of the block to be zero-filled. Not everything depends on this, but some parts do; I think Fortran is one. I did implement that too.? Unix doesn't need it but I had to fill the block with something and it wasn't that hard to zero out the value.? I figured something would come along that required it.? There is still a whole lot of the RK11 functionality I need to implement, much having to do with handling and properly reporting error conditions.? It's still pretty cool to boot up Unix and type commands at it.? Doubly cool to watch the indicator panel blink away while I run programs. By the way, that indicator panel has been ridiculously valuable for debugging this thing.? I did it initially just because I thought it would be fun and I needed to take a break from some frustrating bug but it's turned out to be far easier to use than the logic analyzer (which I've never hooked up).? I just generate a custom FPGA load that displays some register I think will tell me what's going on or even sometimes create additional counters with specific triggers that can monitor the internals of my implementation. From pb at pbcl.net Mon Jan 29 15:57:33 2018 From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 21:57:33 +0000 Subject: QSIC update - v6 Unix boots and runs In-Reply-To: <5b223d91-61ac-2233-22af-35b5c1d35940@froghouse.org> References: <5b223d91-61ac-2233-22af-35b5c1d35940@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <1517263053.16406.1.camel@pbcl.net> On Mon, 2018-01-29 at 16:06 -0500, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > For those of you who are following along with our QSIC project, today > we > booted v6 Unix successfully for the first time.? We'd first tried > this a > week or two back but discovered that Unix does use partial block > reads > and writes after all and I hadn't implemented those yet.? We're > running > this on an 11/23 using the QSIC with an SD card emulating a couple > RK05s. That sounds pretty awesome. Good job there! Do you know how hard it would be to take this design and make a UNIBUS version? I have an 11/34 languishing under the bench in my hardware lab and one of the principal reasons for the languishing is that I don't have any drives to go with it. p. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jan 29 16:06:05 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 14:06:05 -0800 Subject: QSIC update - v6 Unix boots and runs In-Reply-To: <1517263053.16406.1.camel@pbcl.net> References: <5b223d91-61ac-2233-22af-35b5c1d35940@froghouse.org> <1517263053.16406.1.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: <5D7AA9B3-C4F0-4DAA-BB52-287ED4085C42@shiresoft.com> > On Jan 29, 2018, at 1:57 PM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 2018-01-29 at 16:06 -0500, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: >> For those of you who are following along with our QSIC project, today >> we >> booted v6 Unix successfully for the first time. We'd first tried >> this a >> week or two back but discovered that Unix does use partial block >> reads >> and writes after all and I hadn't implemented those yet. We're >> running >> this on an 11/23 using the QSIC with an SD card emulating a couple >> RK05s. > > That sounds pretty awesome. Good job there! > > Do you know how hard it would be to take this design and make a UNIBUS > version? I have an 11/34 languishing under the bench in my hardware > lab and one of the principal reasons for the languishing is that I > don't have any drives to go with it. It?s the UMF11 (or some derivative thereof) that I?ve been working on/off for several (many?) years. It?s been languishing at the moment because work has demanded most of my time. I had gotten to the point where most of it was working in simulation and I have almost all of the uCode written for it and debugged. The uCode is written in Forth. TTFN - Guy From dab at froghouse.org Mon Jan 29 16:09:43 2018 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 17:09:43 -0500 Subject: QSIC update - v6 Unix boots and runs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3fdb1747-8a27-2f87-3d25-18036cdceb60@froghouse.org> > That sounds pretty awesome. Good job there! Thanks.? Feeling good today after a bit of frustration with development not going faster. > Do you know how hard it would be to take this design and make a UNIBUS > version? I have an 11/34 languishing under the bench in my hardware > lab and one of the principal reasons for the languishing is that I > don't have any drives to go with it. Our plan is to produce a Unibus board as well, we just chose the QBUS first.? A Unibus version of the hardware ought to be a fairly straightforward adaptation of the QBUS board while the QBUS modules in Verilog will just have to be replaced with Unibus versions.? The busses work pretty similarly so we're expecting that to also be relatively straightforward.? Yeah, I've told myself that before.? :-) For the Unibus (actually, this should work with Q18 QBUS systems as well), we plan to also implement the Able ENABLE+ functionality which would give 11/70 size memory.? We'll have some SDRAM onboard that we'll use for RAM disks but we'll carve out 4MB of that for machine memory and include mapping tables to access it.? This will, of course, require you to modify your OS to support this non-standard memory.? Noel has already done so for v6 Unix. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 29 17:03:31 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 18:03:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: QSIC update - v6 Unix boots and runs Message-ID: <20180129230331.718FE18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: David Bridgham > Our plan is to produce a Unibus board as well, we just chose the QBUS > first. For no particularly strong reasons; I had working QBUS machines, and prototyping cards, etc, etc. > (actually, this should work with Q18 QBUS systems as well) Goodness, never thought of that. Hmmm.. it's probably enough hassle to mod the software (who ever heard of a 'QBUS map' on a QBUS -11 - but you'd need it to give DMA devices access to high memory) that it's probably just easier to go out and get Q22 hardware. Does anyone even have a Q18 /23? I think that was only the A model, right? I've never seen one. > we plan to also implement the Able ENABLE+ functionality In other words, a 'USIC' with Able ENABLE functionality added in. > This will, of course, require you to modify your OS to support this > non-standard memory. We should be programming compatible with the ENABLE, so for OS's where ENABLE support already exists, it should be a compile-and-go. > Noel has already done so for v6 Unix. Back in the day, with a real hardware ENABLE. PWB1, actually (pretty much V6). It wasn't too much work; one just changes the address definitions for the User and Kernel PARs from the DEC addresses to the Able ones, and recompiles all the kernel modules that touch them. One then has to set up the DEC User and Kernel PARs (which I did in the assembler startup, which was the only source module that took any serious changes). (If your OS uses Supervisor mode, well, err... :-) There are some other minor tweaks needed, e.g. this comment: / these routines are used to access /dev/kmem and look at possible / NXM locations in the system. The reason it uses this mechanism / is that some locations to be examined are on the bus before the / ABLE map, and thus cannot be examined by playing with the ABLE / map regs, e.g. using the standard u access routines .globl _fkbyte, _skbyte .globl _fkword, _skword Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 29 18:47:36 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 19:47:36 -0500 Subject: QSIC update - v6 Unix boots and runs In-Reply-To: <20180129230331.718FE18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180129230331.718FE18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 29, 2018, at 6:03 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > ... >> (actually, this should work with Q18 QBUS systems as well) > > Goodness, never thought of that. Hmmm.. it's probably enough hassle to mod > the software (who ever heard of a 'QBUS map' on a QBUS -11 - but you'd need > it to give DMA devices access to high memory) ... No, there is no such thing as a QBUS map. Q18 systems are like 18 bit Unibus systems such as the 11/45: they have a max of 124 kW of memory so 18 bits address all available memory. paul From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Jan 29 23:32:37 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 21:32:37 -0800 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/24 SLU bulkhead Message-ID: <3c35005d-8ddc-aa6b-3b24-3021643a21de@gmail.com> Hi all -- Finally got around to fixing the H777 supply in my 11/24 (in the "L-box" BA11-L chassis) and now I'm looking at getting it to do something.? First order of business is getting the console SLU hooked up, and I'm missing the bulkhead panel for it.? There's a 20-pin ribbon cable that runs from the CPU backplane to this panel, which breaks it out into two 25-pin D-sub serial ports. According to the schematics, this is P/N 54-14218. Anyone have one of these lying around?? Otherwise I'll just build something of my own... Thanks, Josh From abs at absd.org Tue Jan 30 04:42:55 2018 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:42:55 +0000 Subject: X11 expertise on ancient HW sought... (4-plane visual (overlay) via X-server on MS-WIndows) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29 January 2018 at 14:22, Dimitris Theodoropoulos via cctalk wrote: > Sorry for undiggind this subject so many years later, but have you found a > solution to your problem? I am facing exactly the same issue, and i have > tried all possible windows X server options without success. The only > possibility I am working with is with a Mac OS X server, which reports a > 5-bit visual. What bit-depth do you require on the X-server? David From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Jan 30 09:17:46 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 15:17:46 +0000 Subject: In-Reply-To: <61943CDF-41A4-429F-932B-83F3DBE17738@gmail.com> References: <61943CDF-41A4-429F-932B-83F3DBE17738@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52273DE4-A3D6-4F9E-AB96-840AE637EF31@swri.edu> On Jan 27, 2018, at 8:35 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > Next video: cleaning heads in fragly brewed IPA (the beer). I bet it would work too. Ultrasound in hot solvent cleans stuff that no other method can. > Marc > >>>>> ...On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Carl Claunch via cctech < >>>>> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The IPA is heated to 60C before the ultrasound is able to remove the >>>>> oxide >>>>>> remnants, FWIW. I can?t comment on the merits or dangers of India Pale Ale at 60 C :-P. Does Isopropyl alcohol (um, same as propan-2-ol?) at 60C have enough vapor pressure to be a flammability issue? Should it be done only under a fume hood, or something like that? - Mark From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 11:45:45 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 09:45:45 -0800 Subject: In-Reply-To: <52273DE4-A3D6-4F9E-AB96-840AE637EF31@swri.edu> References: <61943CDF-41A4-429F-932B-83F3DBE17738@gmail.com> <52273DE4-A3D6-4F9E-AB96-840AE637EF31@swri.edu> Message-ID: <9CD84701-D475-433E-BA73-820F843B5774@gmail.com> If it does we were blissfully unaware of it... You need very little fortunately. Marc On Jan 30, 2018, at 7:17 AM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: On Jan 27, 2018, at 8:35 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > Next video: cleaning heads in fragly brewed IPA (the beer). I bet it would work too. Ultrasound in hot solvent cleans stuff that no other method can. > Marc > >>>>> ...On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Carl Claunch via cctech < >>>>> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The IPA is heated to 60C before the ultrasound is able to remove the >>>>> oxide >>>>>> remnants, FWIW. I can?t comment on the merits or dangers of India Pale Ale at 60 C :-P. Does Isopropyl alcohol (um, same as propan-2-ol?) at 60C have enough vapor pressure to be a flammability issue? Should it be done only under a fume hood, or something like that? - Mark From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 12:36:08 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 11:36:08 -0700 Subject: where to find ZCPR2, ZCPR3, ZCPR33, ZCPR34? Message-ID: I've become interested in ZCPR2, 3, 33, and 34, and am surprised at how difficult it is to locate them online. Or maybe I'm just an idiot. Are they out there somewhere? It looks like ZCPR3 was on SIG/M volumes 184 to 192, but those specific volumes seem to be missing from the SIG/M archives I can find. I'm specifically NOT looking for NZ-COM or Z3PLUS. Thanks! Eric From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 12:38:54 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 13:38:54 -0500 Subject: where to find ZCPR2, ZCPR3, ZCPR33, ZCPR34? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://archive.org/details/LOGIC_AppleII_Disk-CPM014 is this what you mean? On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 1:36 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I've become interested in ZCPR2, 3, 33, and 34, and am surprised at how > difficult it is to locate them online. Or maybe I'm just an idiot. Are they > out there somewhere? > > It looks like ZCPR3 was on SIG/M volumes 184 to 192, but those specific > volumes seem to be missing from the SIG/M archives I can find. > > I'm specifically NOT looking for NZ-COM or Z3PLUS. > > Thanks! > Eric > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 12:57:53 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:57:53 -0800 Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads In-Reply-To: <68CBFB74-AD71-4A51-AA88-CFEF8D0CAD35@nf6x.net> References: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA@fritzm.org> <68CBFB74-AD71-4A51-AA88-CFEF8D0CAD35@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > On Jan 27, 2018, at 11:02 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > > When it happens, am I correct in assuming that the pack is toast, and should never be loaded again? Carl would be better qualified to answer that one, but from what he has taught me and what we've seen so far, it depends. If it's a mild crash and just burnished, it might be OK. A lot of the PARC packs we read had such leftover marks from previous mild encounters with a head... Some read just fine, most dirtied our heads but were OK at least for archiving once, a few re-crashed. If there is a gouge and you can see the metal, forget it. Marc From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 13:08:31 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 11:08:31 -0800 Subject: ultrasonic cleaning for disk heads In-Reply-To: References: <9F2C2AC7-1B35-46F5-BD92-CC3DFD29FBFA@fritzm.org> <68CBFB74-AD71-4A51-AA88-CFEF8D0CAD35@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <3540C995-1AB4-47DA-902B-1BEB4AA53E82@gmail.com> > On Jan 27, 2018, at 1:47 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > As I'd never be able to find a similar alignment pack, the heads in mine would have to stay put for > cleaning. Thus I'm wondering whether it would be possible to place the drive vertically so the heads > point down, and use one of those el-cheapo miniature jewellery ultrasonic cleaners plentiful on eBay > to dip the heads into the isopropyl alcohol, in situ? That's quite a clever idea! I would try it. Caveat is that I had a so-so experience with the cheaper ultrasonic cleaners - they just didn't have the oomph, which is why I finally invested in the big one with the heater. But it might work OK with enough time, and it can't possibly hurt. It would make for a great video! Marc From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 13:15:09 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 12:15:09 -0700 Subject: where to find ZCPR2, ZCPR3, ZCPR33, ZCPR34? Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 11:38 AM, Bill Degnan wrote: > https://archive.org/details/LOGIC_AppleII_Disk-CPM014 > > is this what you mean? > While that's useful (thanks!), I'm really looking for the complete ZCPRn distributions, which included source code for the CCP replacement and the utilities etc. That's why ZCPR3 took up _nine_ volumes of the SIG/M library. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 30 13:22:50 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 19:22:50 +0000 Subject: In-Reply-To: <52273DE4-A3D6-4F9E-AB96-840AE637EF31@swri.edu> References: <61943CDF-41A4-429F-932B-83F3DBE17738@gmail.com> <52273DE4-A3D6-4F9E-AB96-840AE637EF31@swri.edu> Message-ID: On 30/01/2018 15:17, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: > Does Isopropyl alcohol (um, same as propan-2-ol?) at 60C have enough vapor pressure to be a flammability issue? Yes. The boiling point of IPA is a little over 80C, and the flash point of 70% - 80% IPA (which would be a common strength) is much lower than 60C; depending on the concentration, it would be not much more than 20C. It's similar to ethanol in that regard. > Should it be done only under a fume hood, or something like that? Maybe, certainly for even small quantities make sure there are no flames or sparks nearby. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 30 14:10:03 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 12:10:03 -0800 Subject: where to find ZCPR2, ZCPR3, ZCPR33, ZCPR34? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1b3c14dd-6d65-b1ef-6eb4-8fcd94410aaa@sydex.com> On 01/30/2018 11:15 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 11:38 AM, Bill Degnan wrote: > >> https://archive.org/details/LOGIC_AppleII_Disk-CPM014 >> >> is this what you mean? >> > > While that's useful (thanks!), I'm really looking for the complete ZCPRn > distributions, which included source code for the CCP replacement and the > utilities etc. > > That's why ZCPR3 took up _nine_ volumes of the SIG/M library. http://www.classiccmp.org/cpmarchives/ftp.php?b=cpm%2Fmirrors%2Foak.oakland.edu%2Fpub%2Fsigm Is the SIG/M collection, all 310 volumes of it. Does this help? --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 30 14:18:58 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 12:18:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: where to find ZCPR2, ZCPR3, ZCPR33, ZCPR34? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jan 2018, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 11:38 AM, Bill Degnan wrote: > >> https://archive.org/details/LOGIC_AppleII_Disk-CPM014 >> >> is this what you mean? >> > > While that's useful (thanks!), I'm really looking for the complete ZCPRn > distributions, which included source code for the CCP replacement and the > utilities etc. > Eric, take a peek here: http://www.classiccmp.org/cpmarchives/ftp.php?b=cpm/Software/WalnutCD/zsys/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 14:20:03 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 13:20:03 -0700 Subject: where to find ZCPR2, ZCPR3, ZCPR33, ZCPR34? In-Reply-To: <1b3c14dd-6d65-b1ef-6eb4-8fcd94410aaa@sydex.com> References: <1b3c14dd-6d65-b1ef-6eb4-8fcd94410aaa@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 1:10 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/cpmarchives/ftp.php?b=cpm% > 2Fmirrors%2Foak.oakland.edu%2Fpub%2Fsigm > > Is the SIG/M collection, all 310 volumes of it. > > Does this help? > > > Thanks, but no. That actually does NOT contain all 310 volumes. At a minimum, it is missing volumes 184 to 192; it may be missing more. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 14:21:57 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 13:21:57 -0700 Subject: where to find ZCPR2, ZCPR3, ZCPR33, ZCPR34? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 1:18 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > Eric, take a peek here: > http://www.classiccmp.org/cpmarchives/ftp.php?b=cpm/Software > /WalnutCD/zsys/ > Thanks! It does look like that contains the ZCPR3 distribution. Now I'm still looking for ZCPR2, ZCPR33, and ZCPR34. From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 17:47:21 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 18:47:21 -0500 Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax Message-ID: All, Per the recent discussion on thicknet/early Ethernet, I figured I'd see if there's any interest in cut-to-length Belden thicknet/10base5 Ethernet cable. I've got a local surplus guy who's got at least one 1100 foot roll. It's the real Ethernet spec stuff, sez so on the cable, and it has the bands to locate your vampire taps. If there's enough interest, I'll buy the spool off of him and cut it to length for whoever's interested in buying some. I can crimp N terminations on as well. Thanks, Jonathan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 30 17:52:58 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 15:52:58 -0800 Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com> On 01/30/2018 03:47 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > Per the recent discussion on thicknet/early Ethernet, I figured I'd see if > there's any interest in cut-to-length Belden thicknet/10base5 Ethernet > cable. I've got a local surplus guy who's got at least one 1100 foot roll. > It's the real Ethernet spec stuff, sez so on the cable, and it has the > bands to locate your vampire taps. > > If there's enough interest, I'll buy the spool off of him and cut it to > length for whoever's interested in buying some. I can crimp N terminations > on as well. I'm sure that someone will be interested in it--there's usually a good supply of masochists around. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 30 17:54:27 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 16:54:27 -0700 Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/30/2018 04:47 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > Per the recent discussion on thicknet/early Ethernet, I figured I'd see > if there's any interest in cut-to-length Belden thicknet/10base5 Ethernet > cable. I've got a local surplus guy who's got at least one 1100 foot roll. > It's the real Ethernet spec stuff, sez so on the cable, and it has the > bands to locate your vampire taps. Intriguing. > If there's enough interest, I'll buy the spool off of him and cut it to > length for whoever's interested in buying some. I can crimp N terminations > on as well. I'm sure my wife will question it, but I'm interested in knowing more. (The rules are that I have to be able to move it by myself, it can't be too loud, and it can't significantly alter the power bill.) What sort of price per foot, per N connector, and your time & effort are you thinking about? Depending on all of the above, I'd be curious to have one or two segments long enough to have two connections / taps each. Also, how well can the hose pipe be coiled for shipping? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 30 17:54:59 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 16:54:59 -0700 Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax In-Reply-To: <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com> References: <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com> Message-ID: <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 01/30/2018 04:52 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I'm sure that someone will be interested in it--there's usually a good > supply of masochists around. Hay! I resemble that!!! -- Grant. . . . unix || die From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 18:06:44 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 19:06:44 -0500 Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax In-Reply-To: <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com> <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Full disclosure on price: right now if I buy one spool, it'll be $0.60/foot to me, I was thinking I'd charge $1/foot for moderate lengths, of course I'm willing to make a deal on bulk purchases, especially if it ends up being local pick-up (here in VA or VCF East). I haven't dressed out cable this large for N connectors in a long time (last stuff was Times Microwave LMR400 for long-range 802.11b stuff) so I'm not sure what the N connectors cost nowadays or how long it'll take me to crimp them on. Not sure how tightly it can coil, but I bet I can fit a load of it in a 15x15x4 box, of which I have plenty. Shortish sections should be able to ship USPS for decent rates, for larger quantities I can use my UPS shipper's account (I have negotiated rates with them). Here's the datasheet on the stuff: https://catalog.belden.com/techdata/EN/89880_techdata.pdf?ip=false DEC spec, orange jacket, plenum rated. Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 6:54 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 01/30/2018 04:52 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> I'm sure that someone will be interested in it--there's usually a good >> supply of masochists around. >> > > Hay! I resemble that!!! > > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 18:30:38 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 17:30:38 -0700 Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 4:47 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Per the recent discussion on thicknet/early Ethernet, I figured I'd see if > there's any interest in cut-to-length Belden thicknet/10base5 Ethernet > cable. I've got a local surplus guy who's got at least one 1100 foot roll. > It's the real Ethernet spec stuff, sez so on the cable, and it has the > bands to locate your vampire taps. > Anyone have extra thicknet transceivers w/ the vampire taps? I'd lilke to have some of the cable if I had some transceivers to go with it. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 18:48:44 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 16:48:44 -0800 Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax In-Reply-To: References: <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com> <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 4:06 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > Full disclosure on price: right now if I buy one spool, it'll be $0.60/foot > to me, I was thinking I'd charge $1/foot for moderate lengths, of course > I'm willing to make a deal on bulk purchases, especially if it ends up > being local pick-up (here in VA or VCF East). I haven't dressed out cable > this large for N connectors in a long time (last stuff was Times Microwave > LMR400 for long-range 802.11b stuff) so I'm not sure what the N connectors > cost nowadays or how long it'll take me to crimp them on. > > Here's the datasheet on the stuff: > > https://catalog.belden.com/techdata/EN/89880_techdata.pdf?ip=false > > DEC spec, orange jacket, plenum rated. > > Thanks, > Jonathan There is also this seller with a couple of 1100 foot spools of Belden 89880 for $480 also in VA. The datasheet says 125 pounds per 1000 feet so if you had to ship one of those I would expect that to add a fair amount to the cost. https://www.ebay.com/itm/291786649807 From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 18:55:17 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 19:55:17 -0500 Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax In-Reply-To: References: <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com> <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: I believe my guy referenced that listing as his basis for his price. I'm sure freight would bring it up to about the same per-foot cost, if not higher. I am sometimes out near the seller of that particular eBay listing, so I'll send them an email and see if they're interested in a local pick-up deal. Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 7:48 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 4:06 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk > wrote: > > Full disclosure on price: right now if I buy one spool, it'll be > $0.60/foot > > to me, I was thinking I'd charge $1/foot for moderate lengths, of course > > I'm willing to make a deal on bulk purchases, especially if it ends up > > being local pick-up (here in VA or VCF East). I haven't dressed out cable > > this large for N connectors in a long time (last stuff was Times > Microwave > > LMR400 for long-range 802.11b stuff) so I'm not sure what the N > connectors > > cost nowadays or how long it'll take me to crimp them on. > > > > Here's the datasheet on the stuff: > > > > https://catalog.belden.com/techdata/EN/89880_techdata.pdf?ip=false > > > > DEC spec, orange jacket, plenum rated. > > > > Thanks, > > Jonathan > > There is also this seller with a couple of 1100 foot spools of Belden > 89880 for $480 also in VA. The datasheet says 125 pounds per 1000 feet > so if you had to ship one of those I would expect that to add a fair > amount to the cost. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/291786649807 > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 30 23:56:24 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 22:56:24 -0700 Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095 Message-ID: <3800997a-366d-d626-94e4-40f3a44fb3d9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Someone shared the following eBay auction in the comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware newsgroup and I figured that someone subscribed to cctalk might be interested: Link - IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095 - https://www.ebay.com/itm/183038271095 -- Grant. . . . unix || die From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 23:57:46 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 23:57:46 -0600 Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095 In-Reply-To: <3800997a-366d-d626-94e4-40f3a44fb3d9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <3800997a-366d-d626-94e4-40f3a44fb3d9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: ibm had 8in floppy drives in their black from the times of white? On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 11:56 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Someone shared the following eBay auction in the comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware > newsgroup and I figured that someone subscribed to cctalk might be > interested: > > Link - IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095 > - https://www.ebay.com/itm/183038271095 > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Jan 30 14:17:47 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 15:17:47 -0500 Subject: Sneak peak: this year's VCF PNW/East/West shirt design Message-ID: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> Here's a sneak preview of the shirt design for all of the 2018 Vintage Computer Federation events. As usual, each event will have a different shirt color. Dan Roganti aka Ragooman used to design the VCF East shirts. Any similarity to him or his interests in the current design is purely coincidental. :) https://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/pnw-shirt-front-1.png From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 15:55:47 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 16:55:47 -0500 Subject: who is in this picture? (VCF 199x) Message-ID: https://retropopplanet.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/vintage-computer.jpg I was not at this particular VCF out in California in the later 90's when this photo of a DEC exhibit was taken; the original picture from vintage.org is no longer hosted. Does anyone have a copy of the old vintage.org exhibit/photo archive? Bill From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 30 16:06:21 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 22:06:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: who is in this picture? (VCF 199x) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <953984019.2231860.1517349981529@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 1:55 PM, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: https://retropopplanet.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/vintage-computer.jpg I was not at this particular VCF out in California in the later 90's when this photo of a DEC exhibit was taken; the original picture from vintage.org is no longer hosted. Does anyone have a copy of the old vintage.org exhibit/photo archive? Bill ________________________________________________________________ Looks like Pavl Zachary. Bob From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Jan 30 16:05:00 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 17:05:00 -0500 Subject: who is in this picture? (VCF 199x) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2a43539a-a5a3-7779-d07c-53e4fda1013e@snarc.net> > https://retropopplanet.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/vintage-computer.jpg Easy, that's Pavl Zachary. > I was not at this particular VCF out in California in the later 90's when > this photo of a DEC exhibit was taken; the original picture from vintage.org > is no longer hosted. > > Does anyone have a copy of the old vintage.org exhibit/photo archive? This is just about everything Sellam sent us: http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/archives-show-summaries/vcf-west-archives/miscellaneous-vcf-west-pictures-1997-2006/ From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jan 30 16:30:18 2018 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 14:30:18 -0800 Subject: who is in this picture? (VCF 199x) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180130143018.46bd1e66@asrock.bcwi.net> On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 16:55:47 -0500 Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > https://retropopplanet.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/vintage-computer.jpg > > I was not at this particular VCF out in California in the later 90's > when this photo of a DEC exhibit was taken; the original picture from > vintage.org is no longer hosted. > > Does anyone have a copy of the old vintage.org exhibit/photo archive? I don't have a copy of the archive - but I was at that VCF. The person in the picture is Pavl Zachary. Pavl has a nice collection of vintage computers (and tanks ;) Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From steven at malikoff.com Tue Jan 30 17:49:27 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 09:49:27 +1000 Subject: who is in this picture? (VCF 199x) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <043f5e65368e191e44140e7abd2bbaec.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Bill said > https://retropopplanet.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/vintage-computer.jpg > > I was not at this particular VCF out in California in the later 90's when > this photo of a DEC exhibit was taken; the original picture from vintage.org > is no longer hosted. > > Does anyone have a copy of the old vintage.org exhibit/photo archive? > > Bill >From the LSX Unix Restoration Page: http://www.mailcom.com/lsx/ Steve. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 18:28:03 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 17:28:03 -0700 Subject: who is in this picture? (VCF 199x) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 2:55 PM, Bill Degnan via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > https://retropopplanet.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/vintage-computer.jpg > Pavl Zachary From alan at alanlee.org Tue Jan 30 18:54:53 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 19:54:53 -0500 Subject: who is in this picture? (VCF 199x) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43475ce06067e9058197d516230042f0@alanlee.org> Not sure but I'm terribly conflicted as to what I find more stunning.. his flowing curls or his rock'n 'stash... On 2018-01-30 16:55, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > https://retropopplanet.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/vintage-computer.jpg > > I was not at this particular VCF out in California in the later 90's > when > this photo of a DEC exhibit was taken; the original picture from > vintage.org > is no longer hosted. > > Does anyone have a copy of the old vintage.org exhibit/photo archive? > > Bill From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 00:15:02 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 22:15:02 -0800 Subject: Sneak peak: this year's VCF PNW/East/West shirt design In-Reply-To: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> References: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > Here's a sneak preview of the shirt design for all of the 2018 Vintage > Computer Federation events. As usual, each event will have a different shirt > color. > > https://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/pnw-shirt-front-1.png Is that a ColecoVision? From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jan 31 02:28:47 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:28:47 +0000 Subject: Foonlies Message-ID: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> This document seems to imply that the Super Foonly and the Foonly F1 were separate machines. When I've seen them discussed, they always seemed to be uses synonymously. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/KC10_Jupiter/memos/foonly_19840410.pdf SUPERFOONLY DESIGNED 1968-71 10,000 TTL IC'S 3 MIPS F1 (1978) 5,000 ECL IC'S 3.5 MIPS Also, except for the CCRMA F4 at Computer History Museum, does anyone know about any Foonly machine having been preserved? From dimitris.theo.gr at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 02:21:02 2018 From: dimitris.theo.gr at gmail.com (Dimitris Theodoropoulos) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 10:21:02 +0200 Subject: X11 expertise on ancient HW sought... (4-plane visual (overlay) via X-server on MS-WIndows) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe that my case is identical to the original message of the list and 24-bit is required. The problematic visual (the one which is not provided by the external X-server) is the following (I cite an extract from xdpyinfo on the original system): * visual:* * visual id: 0x36* * class: PseudoColor* * depth: 4 planes* * available colormap entries: 16* * red, green, blue masks: 0x0, 0x0, 0x0* * significant bits in color specification: 4 bits* At another part of xdpyinfo, I also get the following info: *screen #0:* * dimensions: 1280x1024 pixels (342x274 millimeters)* * resolution: 95x95 dots per inch* * depths (4): 8, 12, 24, 4* Please forgive my technical ineptitude, in case I did not answer your question, but I am not experienced in this domain. D. Theo 2018-01-30 12:42 GMT+02:00 David Brownlee : > On 29 January 2018 at 14:22, Dimitris Theodoropoulos via cctalk > wrote: > > Sorry for undiggind this subject so many years later, but have you found > a > > solution to your problem? I am facing exactly the same issue, and i have > > tried all possible windows X server options without success. The only > > possibility I am working with is with a Mac OS X server, which reports a > > 5-bit visual. > > What bit-depth do you require on the X-server? > > David > From mikelee at tdh.com Wed Jan 31 04:21:40 2018 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 04:21:40 -0600 Subject: who is in this picture? (VCF 199x) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2a444223-cd25-8686-c836-88313baacd66@tdh.com> I believe that's Pavl Zachary... Photo from 2004 VCF West 7: https://www.flickr.com/photos/geekmuseum/2908317855 On 1/30/2018 3:55 PM, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > https://retropopplanet.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/vintage-computer.jpg > > I was not at this particular VCF out in California in the later 90's when > this photo of a DEC exhibit was taken; the original picture from vintage.org > is no longer hosted. > > Does anyone have a copy of the old vintage.org exhibit/photo archive? > > Bill From dave at 661.org Wed Jan 31 07:04:28 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 13:04:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Bluebox boards, anyone? Message-ID: Would anyone like a bluebox PCB or two? This project was inspired by Don Froula's ProjectMF[1] in which he presents a PIC-based bluebox[2] and PCB (handed out at HOPE in 2008). A big reason I like AVRs more than PICs is because the development software is OSS and free. So I reimplemented Don's bluebox in C for an AVR ATtiny85. The PCB started off an a drop-in replacement, but evolved into something designed to fit into a Hammond 1591XXM box instead of functioning as a lid for a Radio Shack 230-1801 box. The Hammond box also comes in transluscent blue! The firmware code[3] is done. I just have to do some tweaks once some test PCBs[4] are made because on the prototype, I wired up the keypad a bit strangely. The code implements a 13-key bluebox, a DTMF keypad, a redbox for US, Canada, and UK, greenbox, and 2600 dial pulse. The PCB needs work to correct some early design decisions that turned out to be non-optimal. [1] http://projectmf.org/ [2] http://projectmf.org/bluebox.html [3] https://github.com/DavidGriffith/bluebox-avr [4] https://github.com/DavidGriffith/bluebox-esquire -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 07:15:33 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:15:33 -0500 Subject: Bluebox boards, anyone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Neat! I'd be interested in a board. I missed out on the ones being handed out at HOPE in 2008 (The Last HOPE, for which a friend and I embarked on a last-minute trip to NYC for I think around $150 total, for the both of us). Thanks, Jonathan On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 8:04 AM, David Griffith via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Would anyone like a bluebox PCB or two? > > This project was inspired by Don Froula's ProjectMF[1] in which he > presents a PIC-based bluebox[2] and PCB (handed out at HOPE in 2008). A > big reason I like AVRs more than PICs is because the development software > is OSS and free. So I reimplemented Don's bluebox in C for an AVR > ATtiny85. The PCB started off an a drop-in replacement, but evolved into > something designed to fit into a Hammond 1591XXM box instead of functioning > as a lid for a Radio Shack 230-1801 box. The Hammond box also comes in > transluscent blue! > > The firmware code[3] is done. I just have to do some tweaks once some > test PCBs[4] are made because on the prototype, I wired up the keypad a bit > strangely. The code implements a 13-key bluebox, a DTMF keypad, a redbox > for US, Canada, and UK, greenbox, and 2600 dial pulse. The PCB needs work > to correct some early design decisions that turned out to be non-optimal. > > [1] http://projectmf.org/ > [2] http://projectmf.org/bluebox.html > [3] https://github.com/DavidGriffith/bluebox-avr > [4] https://github.com/DavidGriffith/bluebox-esquire > > -- > David Griffith > dave at 661.org > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 31 08:00:32 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 09:00:32 -0500 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <417E6E61-BE20-4219-B2EF-F73540ED141C@comcast.net> > On Jan 31, 2018, at 3:28 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > This document seems to imply that the Super Foonly and the Foonly F1 > were separate machines. When I've seen them discussed, they always > seemed to be uses synonymously. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/KC10_Jupiter/memos/foonly_19840410.pdf > > SUPERFOONLY DESIGNED 1968-71 > 10,000 TTL IC'S > 3 MIPS > > F1 (1978) > 5,000 ECL IC'S > 3.5 MIPS Wow, 10 years later, with faster chips, and still the same speed? That's surprising. paul From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 31 09:02:07 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 07:02:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sneak peak: this year's VCF PNW/East/West shirt design In-Reply-To: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> References: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jan 2018, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > Here's a sneak preview of the shirt design for all of the 2018 Vintage > Computer Federation events. As usual, each event will have a different shirt > color. > > Dan Roganti aka Ragooman used to design the VCF East shirts. Any similarity > to him or his interests in the current design is purely > coincidental. :) > > https://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/pnw-shirt-front-1.png > Just...no. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 31 10:26:15 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:26:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sneak peak: this year's VCF PNW/East/West shirt design In-Reply-To: References: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> Message-ID: >> Here's a sneak preview of the shirt design for all of the 2018 Vintage >> Computer Federation events. As usual, each event will have a different >> shirt color. >> Dan Roganti aka Ragooman used to design the VCF East shirts. Any >> similarity to him or his interests in the current design is purely >> coincidental. :) >> https://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/pnw-shirt-front-1.png > Just...no. That's not Pavl. The "nuts" and "bolts" should be capacitors and chips. The squared off U shaped object nearest on the desk should be replaced by an Escher Fork (aka impossible trident). soldering iron and scope, instead of hammer. maybe some magic smoke escaping from whatever he works on. inadequate clutter. howzbout some books and schematics From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 31 10:47:39 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 10:47:39 -0600 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: <417E6E61-BE20-4219-B2EF-F73540ED141C@comcast.net> References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <417E6E61-BE20-4219-B2EF-F73540ED141C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5A71F32B.6040309@pico-systems.com> On 01/31/2018 08:00 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jan 31, 2018, at 3:28 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: >> >> This document seems to imply that the Super Foonly and the Foonly F1 >> were separate machines. When I've seen them discussed, they always >> seemed to be uses synonymously. >> >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/KC10_Jupiter/memos/foonly_19840410.pdf >> >> SUPERFOONLY DESIGNED 1968-71 >> 10,000 TTL IC'S >> 3 MIPS >> >> F1 (1978) >> 5,000 ECL IC'S >> 3.5 MIPS > Wow, 10 years later, with faster chips, and still the same speed? That's surprising. > > Oh, but they cut the IC count in HALF! And, I'll bet, doubled the power consumption, too. If the F1 didn't have cache, then they were probably running up against the memory bandwidth. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 31 11:43:56 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 09:43:56 -0800 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On 1/31/18 12:28 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > SUPERFOONLY DESIGNED 1968-71 > 10,000 TTL IC'S > 3 MIPS Was this ever built? 10K ICs would have been bigger than the Livermore S-1. F1 was the machine that Whitney-Demos had, I think, and there was only ever one of them. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 31 12:00:53 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 10:00:53 -0800 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: <417E6E61-BE20-4219-B2EF-F73540ED141C@comcast.net> References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <417E6E61-BE20-4219-B2EF-F73540ED141C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 01/31/2018 06:00 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Wow, 10 years later, with faster chips, and still the same speed? That's surprising. I believe that Honeywell went through a similar exercise at one point. An all-ECL redesign (details escape me) resulted in no appreciable improvement in performance. --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 31 12:09:22 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 12:09:22 -0600 Subject: Sneak peak: this year's VCF PNW/East/West shirt design In-Reply-To: References: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> Message-ID: <001e01d39abe$9f04c4f0$dd0e4ed0$@classiccmp.org> Gene wrote... > Just...no. Yeah, agreed. No. Fred wrote... >The "nuts" and "bolts" should be capacitors and chips. >The squared off U shaped object nearest on the desk >should be replaced by an Escher Fork (aka impossible >trident). >soldering iron and scope, instead of hammer. >maybe some magic smoke escaping from whatever he >works on. >inadequate clutter. >howzbout some books and schematics Completely agreed (Fred). But by the time you add all that... it's too detailed for a t-shirt. Actually, already is. J From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 31 12:52:40 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 12:52:40 -0600 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <5A721078.8070602@pico-systems.com> On 01/31/2018 11:43 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/31/18 12:28 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > >> SUPERFOONLY DESIGNED 1968-71 >> 10,000 TTL IC'S >> 3 MIPS > Was this ever built? 10K ICs would have been bigger than the Livermore S-1. > > F1 was the machine that Whitney-Demos had, I think, and there was only ever > one of them. > > > Yes, I was wondering about that. Depending on packaging technique, 10K TTL ICs could have been packaged into a modest-sized cabinet, but if done on the large Augat panels like the National Advanced Systems and some other Foonly machines, they would get insanely large. A roughly 12" square WireWrap panel with a grid of 20 x 25 chips would hold 500 ICs. So, 20 of those would do the whole 10K IC system. That could fit in two rack-mount card cages with WW, or one card cage if all etched circuitry. It would need a hefty cooling blower, though. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 31 12:56:26 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 12:56:26 -0600 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <417E6E61-BE20-4219-B2EF-F73540ED141C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5A72115A.2060002@pico-systems.com> On 01/31/2018 12:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 01/31/2018 06:00 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> Wow, 10 years later, with faster chips, and still the same speed? That's surprising. > I believe that Honeywell went through a similar exercise at one point. > An all-ECL redesign (details escape me) resulted in no appreciable > improvement in performance. > > I had a problem with a 16-bit binary counter not having enough frequency resolution, and looked at using ECL to be able to double the clock. After much calculating, I found that there was not a huge improvement with the ECL. And, if you went to 74S, Fast or 74AS, you could easily match the ECL 10K performance. Now, there were a bunch of tricks that you could use with ECL that helped, like wired-OR instead of adding a tri-state buffer. ECL had a notable advantage in 1970, but as TTL derivatives continued to advance, that shrank to nothing. Jon From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jan 31 13:03:26 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 19:03:26 +0000 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: (Al Kossow via cctalk's message of "Wed, 31 Jan 2018 09:43:56 -0800") References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wtvv1g8ap.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Al Kossow wrote: > F1 was the machine that Whitney-Demos had, I think, and there was only ever > one of them. Before I do anything rash, has anyone seriously tried to track down what happened to the F1 and/or its software? From jon at jonworld.com Wed Jan 31 13:04:48 2018 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 19:04:48 +0000 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: <7wtvv1g8ap.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wtvv1g8ap.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 7:03 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > Before I do anything rash, has anyone seriously tried to track down what > happened to the F1 and/or its software? When I asked about Flight of the Navigator many, many moons ago, I remember the F1 did the special effects for that movie. That means Disney had it for a bit. From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jan 31 13:14:51 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 19:14:51 +0000 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: (Jonathan Katz via cctalk's message of "Wed, 31 Jan 2018 19:04:48 +0000") References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wtvv1g8ap.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wlggdg7ro.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Jonathan Katz wrote: > When I asked about Flight of the Navigator many, many moons ago, I > remember the F1 did the special effects for that movie. That means > Disney had it for a bit. Seems it was at Paramount at that time: "Probably the worst moment of my life with the Foonly came after we had managed to get it moved to Paramount Studios and were cranking through the film for a long sequence for Flight of the Navigator, a Disney film. http://dave.zfxinc.net/f1.html From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jan 31 13:27:45 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 19:27:45 +0000 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: (Al Kossow via cctalk's message of "Wed, 31 Jan 2018 09:43:56 -0800") References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wh8r1g766.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Al Kossow wrote: >> SUPERFOONLY DESIGNED 1968-71 >> 10,000 TTL IC'S >> 3 MIPS > > Was this ever built? 10K ICs would have been bigger than the Livermore S-1. This says the Superfoonly was designed. Doesn't say it was actually built. Triple-I funded the construction of the updated design, the F1. "The original superfoonly was designed at Stanford, on an ARPA contract, but Dave Poole, Phil Pettit, and Jack Holloway. There was also a fourth whose role (I think) was to build the CAD system which was used for the design. He later went to work for DEC. DEC took the foonly design and lobotomized it, which became the KL10. The other three came to Triple-I with a proposal to build an updated version of the original design (using ECL instead of TTL). http://dave.zfxinc.net/ddyer.html From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 13:46:03 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 12:46:03 -0700 Subject: where to find ZCPR2, ZCPR3, ZCPR33, ZCPR34? In-Reply-To: <1029758492.148667.1517372970187@email.1and1.com> References: <1029758492.148667.1517372970187@email.1and1.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 9:29 PM, wrote: > On January 30, 2018 at 3:21 PM Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Now I'm still looking for ZCPR2, ZCPR33, and ZCPR34. > > I believe you will find this site: > > http://www.znode51.de/indexe.htm > > useful. I could be wrong, but I think it has the most up to date zcpr > software. > That site has NZ-COM and Z3PLUS, but I've dug through it and cannot find ZCPR2, ZCPR33, or ZCPR34. It's possible that they are there somewhere and I just didn't find them. Apparently NZ-COM and Z3PLUS are based on ZCPR34, but are fancy auto-installing things with no source code, whereas what I'm looking for is the original ZCPR2, 33, and/or 34 distributions that included source code. Best regards, Eric From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jan 31 14:07:44 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 20:07:44 +0000 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: <7wlggdg7ro.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> (Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk's message of "Wed, 31 Jan 2018 19:14:51 +0000") References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wtvv1g8ap.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wlggdg7ro.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7w607hg5bj.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> > Jonathan Katz wrote: >> When I asked about Flight of the Navigator many, many moons ago, I >> remember the F1 did the special effects for that movie. That means >> Disney had it for a bit. > Seems it was at Paramount at that time I see now I got an email from Gary Demos 18 years ago. He didn't know where the F1 went after Paramount. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 31 14:25:28 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 12:25:28 -0800 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: <7wh8r1g766.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wh8r1g766.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <65f8247b-7462-a472-acd4-63ad3d26a7e3@bitsavers.org> On 1/31/18 11:27 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > There was > also a fourth whose role (I think) was to build the CAD system which > was used for the design. He later went to work for DEC. SUDS (Stanford University Design System) also used to design the Livermore S-1 Modified version used at MIT for the CADR still lives on at XKL Been searching for the Stanford/MIT SUDS and the Livermore SCALD tools for decades. The DEC SUDS may be somewhere on the DEC LCG backup tapes. https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/188493.pdf From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 31 14:30:52 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 12:30:52 -0800 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: <65f8247b-7462-a472-acd4-63ad3d26a7e3@bitsavers.org> References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wh8r1g766.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <65f8247b-7462-a472-acd4-63ad3d26a7e3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 1/31/18 12:25 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/31/18 11:27 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: >> There was >> also a fourth whose role (I think) was to build the CAD system which >> was used for the design. He later went to work for DEC. > > SUDS (Stanford University Design System) Drawing http://www.scaruffi.com/svhistory/sil9.html Electronic Design Automation The S-1 project to build a supercomputer was started by the astrophysicist Lowell Wood at the Lawrence Livermore National Lab in 1975, first ran a program in 1978 and continued until 1988. Two Stanford students, Tom McWilliams and Curt Widdoes, were recruited to develop SCALD (Structured Computer-Aided Logic Design), an influential language to design computers, written in Pascal on DEC's PDP10 SCALD was based on the Stanford University Drawing System (SUDS) developed at Stanford's Artificial Intelligence Lab (SAIL) first by Phil Petit in 1969 on the PDP10 in assembly language) and later by Richard Helliwell. Petit moved to DEC and used SUDS to design the DEC KL-10 of 1973. Therefore SUDS became the first Computer Aided Design (CAD) system used to design an actual computer. Later Bechtolsheim used SUDS to design the SUN boards at SAIL. SCALD jumpstarted a whole new field, Electronic Design Automation (EDA) for electrical engineering and electronics. Tom McWilliams and Curt Widdoes started a company, initially called SCALD Corporation and later Valid Logic Systems, in 1981 in San Jose to sell SCALD on a proprietary UNIX workstation. At the same time, also in 1981 but in Mountain View, Aryeh Finegold and David Stamm used the public-domain source code for SCALD to found Daisy Systems, that also required a specialized workstation running its own Unix-like operating system. Several notable Silicon Valley founders (e.g. Vinod Khosla, Harvey Jones, Don Smith, Tony Zingale, Mike Schuh, George Haber, Dave Millman and Rick Carlson) started out at Daisy Systems. The third pioneer of EDA was Mentor Graphics, founded in 1981 in Oregon by Tektronix engineers (Tom Bruggere, Gerry Langeler and Dave Moffenbeier) and the only one that didn't require specialized hardware (it ran on regular Unix workstations). "released into the public domain in 1978." BFD. No one has a copy today. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 31 14:31:18 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 12:31:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sneak peak: this year's VCF PNW/East/West shirt design In-Reply-To: <001e01d39abe$9f04c4f0$dd0e4ed0$@classiccmp.org> References: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> <001e01d39abe$9f04c4f0$dd0e4ed0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Gene wrote... >> Just...no. > Yeah, agreed. No. > > Fred wrote... >> The "nuts" and "bolts" should be capacitors and chips. >> The squared off U shaped object nearest on the desk >should be replaced by > an Escher Fork (aka impossible >trident). >> soldering iron and scope, instead of hammer. >> maybe some magic smoke escaping from whatever he >works on. >> inadequate clutter. >> howzbout some books and schematics > On Wed, 31 Jan 2018, Jay West wrote: > Completely agreed (Fred). But by the time you add all that... it's too > detailed for a t-shirt. Actually, already is. Then, howzbout: leave out the guy. He isn't "distinctive" enough to add much. Then just show a cluttered vintage computer collector workbench. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 14:43:07 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 13:43:07 -0700 Subject: where to find ZCPR2, ZCPR3, ZCPR33, ZCPR34? In-Reply-To: References: <1029758492.148667.1517372970187@email.1and1.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 12:46 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > That site has NZ-COM and Z3PLUS, but I've dug through it and cannot find > ZCPR2, ZCPR33, or ZCPR34. It's possible that they are there somewhere and I > just didn't find them. > OK. Found ZCPR33 on that site in the FOG collection, disks 205 through 208. Still looking for ZCPR2 and ZCPR34. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 31 14:52:15 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 12:52:15 -0800 Subject: Sneak peak: this year's VCF PNW/East/West shirt design In-Reply-To: References: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> Message-ID: On 1/31/18 7:02 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > Just...no. TOS shirt on someone who looks like Carl Helmers in 1976? Find someone that can draw, or get serious about Cubism. This just looks stupid. From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 14:56:07 2018 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 12:56:07 -0800 Subject: Sneak peak: this year's VCF PNW/East/West shirt design In-Reply-To: References: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> <001e01d39abe$9f04c4f0$dd0e4ed0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I've been told the fellow in the picture is someone active from the community who I had never heard of or recognized, but who has fallen ill.- which is very sad. And the shirt was made to recognize him. My criticism of the shirt was, admittedly, originally based on the "stereotypical computer collector" on front. While I'm not a big fan of the design in general, it's a nice gesture and I think it would be helpful if Evan and co. chimed in with the context of the shirt and why it exists- maybe a bit more about who the guy on it is. Without this context, I ended up criticizing it for something it didn't intend to portray- inadvertently insulting the subject in the process. :^( Context! It's important! Not everyone picks up on every reference. - Ian On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 12:31 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Gene wrote... >> >>> Just...no. >>> >> Yeah, agreed. No. >> >> Fred wrote... >> >>> The "nuts" and "bolts" should be capacitors and chips. >>> The squared off U shaped object nearest on the desk >should be replaced >>> by >>> >> an Escher Fork (aka impossible >trident). >> >>> soldering iron and scope, instead of hammer. >>> maybe some magic smoke escaping from whatever he >works on. >>> inadequate clutter. >>> howzbout some books and schematics >>> >> >> On Wed, 31 Jan 2018, Jay West wrote: > >> Completely agreed (Fred). But by the time you add all that... it's too >> detailed for a t-shirt. Actually, already is. >> > > Then, howzbout: leave out the guy. He isn't "distinctive" enough to add > much. Then just show a cluttered vintage computer collector workbench. > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 15:00:59 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 22:00:59 +0100 Subject: Data IO 29B / Unipak 2B adapter? Message-ID: I need to read a couple of Signetics 82S215 bipolar PROMs with my old Data IO 29B / Unipak 2B. But it needs a 351B-068 adapter. Does anyone has information regarding this adapter? I did find an old post in DATA_IO_EPROM at groups.io mailinglist that a man named Alfred Marin had boards. I even found his email but it bounced. Any other pointers in this subject? /Mattis From evan at snarc.net Wed Jan 31 15:03:12 2018 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 16:03:12 -0500 Subject: Sneak peak: this year's VCF PNW/East/West shirt design In-Reply-To: References: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> <001e01d39abe$9f04c4f0$dd0e4ed0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <77a71855-a09c-9598-fce0-7fd5bb0407da@snarc.net> >> I think it would be helpful if Evan and co. chimed in with the context of the shirt and why it exists- maybe a bit more about who the guy on it is. Fair enough. It's a caricature of Dan Roganti aka Ragooman on this list, VC Forum, various Apple and S-100 forums, etc. Dan drew most of the early VCF East shirts in a certain style. Everyone liked those. Now he's going through a tough time (not my place to elaborate here), so we decided to make a shirt in his honor, using the same style. My favorite parts are the cat and the robot. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 15:04:44 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 14:04:44 -0700 Subject: where to find ZCPR2, ZCPR3, ZCPR33, ZCPR34? In-Reply-To: References: <1029758492.148667.1517372970187@email.1and1.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 1:43 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Still looking for ZCPR2 and ZCPR34. > Elsewhere nathanael pointed out to me that ZCPR1, ZCPR2, and ZCPR33 may be found at: http://www.classiccmp.org/cpmarchives/ftp.php?b=cpm/Software/WalnutCD/cpm So, still looking for the ZCPR34 source code, which is the version upon which NZ-COM and Z3PLUS are built. From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 15:11:36 2018 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 13:11:36 -0800 Subject: Sneak peak: this year's VCF PNW/East/West shirt design In-Reply-To: <77a71855-a09c-9598-fce0-7fd5bb0407da@snarc.net> References: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> <001e01d39abe$9f04c4f0$dd0e4ed0$@classiccmp.org> <77a71855-a09c-9598-fce0-7fd5bb0407da@snarc.net> Message-ID: Thanks, Evan. With that bit of background, I personally enjoy the design quite a bit more- and the 'quirkiness' makes a lot more sense. On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 1:03 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I think it would be helpful if Evan and co. chimed in with the context of >>> the shirt and why it exists- maybe a bit more about who the guy on it is. >>> >> > Fair enough. > > It's a caricature of Dan Roganti aka Ragooman on this list, VC Forum, > various Apple and S-100 forums, etc. > > Dan drew most of the early VCF East shirts in a certain style. Everyone > liked those. Now he's going through a tough time (not my place to elaborate > here), so we decided to make a shirt in his honor, using the same style. > > My favorite parts are the cat and the robot. > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 31 15:22:30 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 13:22:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sneak peak: this year's VCF PNW/East/West shirt design In-Reply-To: <77a71855-a09c-9598-fce0-7fd5bb0407da@snarc.net> References: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> <001e01d39abe$9f04c4f0$dd0e4ed0$@classiccmp.org> <77a71855-a09c-9598-fce0-7fd5bb0407da@snarc.net> Message-ID: >>> I think it would be helpful if Evan and co. chimed in with the context >>> of the shirt and why it exists- maybe a bit more about who the guy on >>> it is. On Wed, 31 Jan 2018, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > Fair enough. > It's a caricature of Dan Roganti aka Ragooman on this list, VC Forum, > various Apple and S-100 forums, etc. > Dan drew most of the early VCF East shirts in a certain style. Everyone > liked those. Now he's going through a tough time (not my place to > elaborate here), so we decided to make a shirt in his honor, using the > same style. OK! If it's not too late to make changes, could you put "Ragooman" on a nametag, desk nameplate, a disk label, or on a book or other item in the picture? I had just assumed that it was a generic person. Being in honor of a specific person changes a lot, although how many people would recognize that without some hints? > My favorite parts are the cat and the robot. Those are good. I still stand by my suggestions, a jar of caps, maybe an Escher fork, etc. I'm sorry that you didn't think that those suggestions were very positive. From harten at injectstar.de Wed Jan 31 11:47:56 2018 From: harten at injectstar.de (Harten) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 18:47:56 +0100 Subject: NCR7510 Bootmedia (Tape) Message-ID: Hi to all! I'm looking for a boot medium for my NCR 7500. It is the model with one cassette drive (standard MCs) and the monitor in vertical position. I think this model is called 7510 and there should have been at least an OS "BASIC +6". Regards Rolf From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Wed Jan 31 13:52:11 2018 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 19:52:11 +0000 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: <7wh8r1g766.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> , <7wh8r1g766.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: Was this the machine that Triple I/Autologic created to digitize old color film movies? AFIK, it used lasers to scan the film and create digital color seps that were recombined later in the process. It was used in the Kate Winslett / Leonardo DiCaprio remake of "Titanic". Autologic even got a mention in the movie credits. Autologic donated that machine to UCLA for their film preservation archive project. Wayne > On Jan 31, 2018, at 11:27 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > Al Kossow wrote: >>> SUPERFOONLY DESIGNED 1968-71 >>> 10,000 TTL IC'S >>> 3 MIPS >> >> Was this ever built? 10K ICs would have been bigger than the Livermore S-1. > > This says the Superfoonly was designed. Doesn't say it was actually > built. Triple-I funded the construction of the updated design, the F1. > > "The original superfoonly was designed at Stanford, on an ARPA > contract, but Dave Poole, Phil Pettit, and Jack Holloway. There was > also a fourth whose role (I think) was to build the CAD system which > was used for the design. He later went to work for DEC. DEC took the > foonly design and lobotomized it, which became the KL10. The other > three came to Triple-I with a proposal to build an updated version of > the original design (using ECL instead of TTL). > > http://dave.zfxinc.net/ddyer.html From cramcram at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 14:16:59 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 12:16:59 -0800 Subject: A couple of RL02 questions In-Reply-To: <20180129140849.70DD018C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180129140849.70DD018C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: All, Thanks for the info. Once I opened the drive up I saw that there was a pack still in there. At first I was excited to get a free pack but then I quickly realized that the heads weren't locked. In fact, they were deployed about an inch into the surface. I retracted them manually. I can't see apparent damage to the pack or heads but the drive isn't in a good place for analysis. Oh well... On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 6:08 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Marc Howard > > > All the unit has is a thin rail on both sides that is riveted to the > > unit. It looks like chassis slides were there originally. Does anyone > > have either the DEC part # for the slides > > I sent these to the list a while back, and never added them to the CHWiki > once > we gained access to it; I have now added them there: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/RL0x_disk_drive#Installation > > Note that i) they are handed, so one needs an L and a R (I have extra > lefts, > and would like to trade some for rights), and ii) the same slides are used > on > other DEC drives, e.g. the RA81. > > Noel > From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Jan 31 14:44:16 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 15:44:16 -0500 Subject: Sneak peak: this year's VCF PNW/East/West shirt design In-Reply-To: References: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> <001e01d39abe$9f04c4f0$dd0e4ed0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >> Gene wrote... >>> Just...no. >> Yeah, agreed. No. >> >> Fred wrote... >>> The "nuts" and "bolts" should be capacitors and chips. >>> The squared off U shaped object nearest on the desk >should be >>> replaced by >> an Escher Fork (aka impossible >trident). >>> soldering iron and scope, instead of hammer. >>> maybe some magic smoke escaping from whatever he >works on. >>> inadequate clutter. >>> howzbout some books and schematics >> > On Wed, 31 Jan 2018, Jay West wrote: >> Completely agreed (Fred). But by the time you add all that... it's too >> detailed for a t-shirt. Actually, already is. > > Then, howzbout: leave out the guy.? He isn't "distinctive" enough to add > much.? Then just show a cluttered vintage computer collector workbench. Guys -- with all due respect, we posted this as a preview, not a crowdsourced method to make a whole new design. :) Most of the feedback we received is very positive. From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 17:52:59 2018 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 17:52:59 -0600 Subject: Sneak peak: this year's VCF PNW/East/West shirt design In-Reply-To: References: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> Message-ID: Looks like it to me. Shelf looks like: Apple II IMSAI CollecoVision Of course, I could definitely be wrong and it could be a PDP in middle or another unusual model (sol-20?) on top. In any event, nice shirt :-) On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 12:15 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > https://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/pnw-shirt-front-1.png > > Is that a ColecoVision? > From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 17:54:37 2018 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 17:54:37 -0600 Subject: Sneak peak: this year's VCF PNW/East/West shirt design In-Reply-To: References: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> <001e01d39abe$9f04c4f0$dd0e4ed0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: For extra credit was it drawn in any particular vintage software or computer? From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jan 31 18:20:48 2018 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 18:20:48 -0600 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <417E6E61-BE20-4219-B2EF-F73540ED141C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20180201002048.GA15139@lonesome.com> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 10:00:53AM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > An all-ECL redesign (details escape me) resulted in no appreciable > improvement in performance. But I'm sure the local power company appreciated the extra revenue they got from it. (I recently donated the little chunk of ECL logic I had back to Rice University, where it came from lo those many years ago. Even by the time they were building their "fast" computer in 1970, 74S was already starting to catch up.) mcl From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 31 18:26:35 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 19:26:35 -0500 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: <20180201002048.GA15139@lonesome.com> References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <417E6E61-BE20-4219-B2EF-F73540ED141C@comcast.net> <20180201002048.GA15139@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <55376D63-1334-48E8-881F-9D8201A603F6@comcast.net> > On Jan 31, 2018, at 7:20 PM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 10:00:53AM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> An all-ECL redesign (details escape me) resulted in no appreciable >> improvement in performance. > > But I'm sure the local power company appreciated the extra revenue they > got from it. > > (I recently donated the little chunk of ECL logic I had back to Rice > University, where it came from lo those many years ago. Even by the > time they were building their "fast" computer in 1970, 74S was already > starting to catch up.) Then again, DEC Western Research Lab in the mid 1980s did an interesting project to do a full custom single ECL chip implementation of a MIPS (or Alpha?) CPU, intended to run at 1 GHz. The CAD system they built for this was quite interesting, as were bits of key technology like a heat pipe based chip cooling setup, possibly the first such device. It wasn't finished (the ECL fab shops kept going out of business faster than the CAD team could tweak the design rules in the tools) but some neat stuff came out of it, in internal reports only unfortunately. paul From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 31 21:07:23 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 19:07:23 -0800 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: <55376D63-1334-48E8-881F-9D8201A603F6@comcast.net> References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <417E6E61-BE20-4219-B2EF-F73540ED141C@comcast.net> <20180201002048.GA15139@lonesome.com> <55376D63-1334-48E8-881F-9D8201A603F6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6739052e-1466-0637-185b-9eacfd5f833e@sydex.com> On 01/31/2018 04:26 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Then again, DEC Western Research Lab in the mid 1980s did an > interesting project to do a full custom single ECL chip > implementation of a MIPS (or Alpha?) CPU, intended to run at 1 GHz. > The CAD system they built for this was quite interesting, as were > bits of key technology like a heat pipe based chip cooling setup, > possibly the first such device. It wasn't finished (the ECL fab > shops kept going out of business faster than the CAD team could tweak > the design rules in the tools) but some neat stuff came out of it, in > internal reports only unfortunately. Still have a bunch of ECL 10K logic--I've never been very interested in using it for anything. I think that AES built their own minicomputer using ECL back in the 1970s, but I don't recall ever seeing much about its release. More surprising than the advance of Schottky TTL on ECL was the startling speedup of CMOS. Back in the 70s, 4000-series CMOS was among the slowest logic around. By the mid 1980s, we were building supercomputers using CMOS. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 31 21:08:17 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 21:08:17 -0600 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: <7wh8r1g766.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wh8r1g766.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <5A7284A1.8000909@pico-systems.com> On 01/31/2018 01:27 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: >>> SUPERFOONLY DESIGNED 1968-71 >>> 10,000 TTL IC'S >>> 3 MIPS >> Was this ever built? 10K ICs would have been bigger than the Livermore S-1. > This says the Superfoonly was designed. Doesn't say it was actually > built. Triple-I funded the construction of the updated design, the F1. > > "The original superfoonly was designed at Stanford, on an ARPA > contract, but Dave Poole, Phil Pettit, and Jack Holloway. There was > also a fourth whose role (I think) was to build the CAD system which > was used for the design. He later went to work for DEC. DEC took the > foonly design and lobotomized it, which became the KL10. The other > three came to Triple-I with a proposal to build an updated version of > the original design (using ECL instead of TTL). > > The KL10 was made out of MECL 10000 series logic. Jon From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jan 31 21:57:58 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2018 03:57:58 +0000 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: (Wayne S.'s message of "Wed, 31 Jan 2018 19:52:11 +0000") References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wh8r1g766.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wshale4zd.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Wayne S wrote: > Was this the machine that Triple I/Autologic created to digitize old > color film movies? > AFIK, it used lasers to scan the film and create digital color seps > that were recombined later in the process. It was used in the Kate > Winslett / Leonardo DiCaprio remake of "Titanic". Autologic even got > a mention in the movie credits. I don't think so. At least, I never heard that the F1 had such equipment. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 22:07:47 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 23:07:47 -0500 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: <5A72115A.2060002@pico-systems.com> References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <417E6E61-BE20-4219-B2EF-F73540ED141C@comcast.net> <5A72115A.2060002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > And, if you went to 74S, Fast or 74AS, you could easily match the ECL > 10K performance. Now, there were a bunch of tricks that you could use with > ECL that helped, like wired-OR instead of adding a tri-state buffer. ECL > had a notable advantage in 1970, but as TTL derivatives continued to > advance, that shrank to nothing. If you are comparing 74S/AS/F TTL to 10K ECL, you are making a unfair comparison. When the 74S and 10K were introduced in the very early 1970s, 10K ECL was not the fastest ECL available, MECL III was. MECL III was almost three times faster than 10K, but was expensive and difficult to use. It remained in front line use until the mid-1970s, simply because nothing could touch it. 10K became the popular ECL family because it was the easiest to use and would not break the bank. Additionally, when 74AS was introduced, 100K had already been established, with 10KH following shortly thereafter. 100K was very easy to deal with, as long as ALL the rules in the databooks were followed, but like MECL III, very expensive (a normal glue logic chip, like a 100101 triple OR/NOR was seven bucks in DIP, compared to thirty cents for something similar in TTL). Later still, 10E/100E was even faster, down to typical 400 pS gate delays - still something that TTL could not touch at the time. To top in off, 10G was a little faster that 10E/100E. Also, running 74S at full throttle often results in a real shitshow on the circuit board. It is far easier to run ECL at full speed potential. CMOS killed ECL, not TTL. -- Will From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jan 31 23:40:17 2018 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 23:40:17 -0600 Subject: chip technology dead-ends (was: Foonlies) In-Reply-To: <6739052e-1466-0637-185b-9eacfd5f833e@sydex.com> References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <417E6E61-BE20-4219-B2EF-F73540ED141C@comcast.net> <20180201002048.GA15139@lonesome.com> <55376D63-1334-48E8-881F-9D8201A603F6@comcast.net> <6739052e-1466-0637-185b-9eacfd5f833e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20180201054017.GA15980@lonesome.com> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 07:07:23PM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Back in the 70s, 4000-series CMOS was among the slowest logic around. I really wish I still had one technical magazine that came out during the late 70s/early 80s. (I don't remember which one it was, anymore.) It was devoted to keeping you up with the latest chip/minicomputer technology. It contained a very serious editorial about "what are we going to use to replace CMOS" now that the > 10MHz chips were starting to be avialable. "Clearly" there was no way to push the technology past that: it was simply impossible due to heat dissipation -- the chips were going to burn up. It was an open-ended question; clearly neither ECL nor TTL were going to fit the bill. (Hey, at least the author got _that_ part correct.) Oh and while we're skewering early CMOS chips, they were grossly sensitive to static. The company I was working for during the summers was buying these $40 4-digit LED things with a CMOS driver and if you even looked at it wrong you could watch the chip swell up and bake underneath its protective plastic. This was not not very amusing to management. I'll bet I still have one in a box somewhere. mcl From Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com Wed Jan 31 18:47:49 2018 From: Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 00:47:49 +0000 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: <28CC6B23-34A7-4AF3-AE32-101C2A77B746@comcast.net> References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wh8r1g766.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> , <28CC6B23-34A7-4AF3-AE32-101C2A77B746@comcast.net> Message-ID: Yes, they merged @ 1996 with the new company being named AII ("A" eye-eye). Then the combined company was bought by AGFA @2001. All the big daily newspapers used their photo typesetters, the Autologic model APS6 and/or the III 3850. They were fast and didn't break much and used Harlequin Rips so publications could have any front end systems that spoke postscript. The Mac was coming into it's own as a relatively inexpensive non-proprietary publishing platform and the publishers and print houses liked that. Right before the year 2000 scare, all the newspapers bought new ones with the result that Autologic/III made a bundle in 1999, then didn't really have any big orders for the following few years. I know that the LA Times bought 18 of them alone at @ $75K each. As the newspapers transitioned from film to computer-to-plate in the following years, AII couldn't keep up and was ultimately bought by AGFA. There was a lot of competition in the CTP arena back then. I think AGFA moved the company to Cambridge, MA, from Thousand Oaks, California. ________________________________ From: Paul Koning Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 4:23 PM To: Wayne S Subject: Re: Foonlies Triple I / Autologic? Interesting. I remember (from around 1978) III and Autologic as two separate manufacturers of phototypesetting machines, with III rather obscure, very large physically (a small room) and very fast. Did they merge? paul > On Jan 31, 2018, at 2:52 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > Was this the machine that Triple I/Autologic created to digitize old color film movies? > AFIK, it used lasers to scan the film and create digital color seps that were recombined later in the process. It was used in the Kate Winslett / Leonardo DiCaprio remake of "Titanic". Autologic even got a mention in the movie credits. > > Autologic donated that machine to UCLA for their film preservation archive project. > > Wayne From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Jan 31 19:09:59 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 20:09:59 -0500 Subject: Sneak peak: this year's VCF PNW/East/West shirt design In-Reply-To: References: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> Message-ID: <3e526562-29a3-14d2-250d-893fc50d572f@snarc.net> > Apple II > IMSAI > ColecoVision That's exactly right. We wanted to show some of his favorite systems. We already knew he likes cats, robots, Star Trek, and building electronic gadgets. > In any event, nice shirt :-) Thank you. From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Jan 31 19:10:27 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 20:10:27 -0500 Subject: Sneak peak: this year's VCF PNW/East/West shirt design In-Reply-To: References: <615b2e39-d1fa-fb4a-92eb-d9f506b85db0@snarc.net> <001e01d39abe$9f04c4f0$dd0e4ed0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > For extra credit was it drawn in any particular vintage software or > computer? Not to my knowledge. From RichA at livingcomputers.org Wed Jan 31 20:25:55 2018 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 02:25:55 +0000 Subject: Foonlies In-Reply-To: <7wh8r1g766.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wh8r1g766.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: From: Lars Brinkhoff Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:28 AM > Al Kossow wrote: >>> SUPERFOONLY DESIGNED 1968-71 >>> 10,000 TTL IC'S >>> 3 MIPS >> Was this ever built? 10K ICs would have been bigger than the Livermore S-1. > This says the Superfoonly was designed. Doesn't say it was actually > built. Triple-I funded the construction of the updated design, the F1. > > "The original superfoonly was designed at Stanford, on an ARPA > contract, but Dave Poole, Phil Pettit, and Jack Holloway. There was > also a fourth whose role (I think) was to build the CAD system which > was used for the design. He later went to work for DEC. DEC took the > foonly design and lobotomized it, which became the KL10. The other > three came to Triple-I with a proposal to build an updated version of > the original design (using ECL instead of TTL). > > http://dave.zfxinc.net/ddyer.html The fourth guy was Dick Helliwell, who was hired by DEC when they licensed SUDS from SAIL. I met Dick when we both worked at XKL; he was the major part of the effort to make SUDS run on the X Window System, on the KL-10 and later on the Toad-1. I'm going to disagree with the history Al posted, because Dick himself told me the story. He also ported Perl 4 and the GNU utilities and Emacs to TOPS-20. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/