From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 05:45:15 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 10:45:15 +0000 Subject: DECwriter II available for pickup in Gosport, Hants, UK Message-ID: Hi folks, As the subject says. It's been stored in a garage for many years but is in pretty good condition. Free for pickup. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 1 07:03:59 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 12:03:59 -0000 Subject: DECwriter II available for pickup in Gosport, Hants, UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601d35309$80414a90$80c3dfb0$@ntlworld.com> I just wish I could give this a home :-( :-( > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham via cctalk > Sent: 01 November 2017 10:45 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: DECwriter II available for pickup in Gosport, Hants, UK > > Hi folks, > > As the subject says. It's been stored in a garage for many years but is in pretty > good condition. Free for pickup. > > Cheers, > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Nov 1 07:59:18 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 08:59:18 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <9e0c03e9-3301-fdd3-fb72-fbe192a98a1d@gmail.com> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <00e401d34f4b$b81790d0$2846b270$@ntlworld.com> <3778B96F-EF03-4C23-81F8-0C46998B2B98@comcast.net> <89CD6D3C-B751-4FD3-8D8D-6326891702F6@comcast.net> <93b39b25-9573-3dc5-7649-aa3cecf0b8bd@sydex.com> <7015bb52-5866-d832-985e-6f58f884dabf@bitsavers.org> <3A8D28E4-5B2B-454E-B842-06F9DAE6074C@comcast.net> <7A084FEC-A79F-46CF-AFA6-22301720E951@shaw.ca> <1509138059.3103.9.camel@pbcl.net> <9e0c03e9-3301-fdd3-fb72-fbe192a98a1d@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 31, 2017, at 5:59 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > ... FYI rope core was basically many > transformers either with a wire > in for the bit or wire around for the not bit. The cores for rope > didn't change magnetic state like > coincident current cores of the bistable type as that allowed read write > but was DRO (destructive > read out with re-write) which is the more familiar core and why it had a > shorter read time and a > longer cycle time between reads. Actually, that's not accurate. Core rope memory (Apollo Computer style) does use memory cores. You can find it described well on a web page by Brent Halpern that discusses that and other (transformer style) memories. In core rope memory, the selected core has its state changed by the combined select currents, and then it delivers pulses to whichever sense lines are threaded through that core when the core is reset again. The Electrologica X1 has a core ROM that also uses memory cores, but in a different way than core rope. paul From paul at pgdeng.co.uk Wed Nov 1 07:37:47 2017 From: paul at pgdeng.co.uk (Paul Drescher) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 12:37:47 +0000 Subject: DECwriter II available for pickup in Gosport, Hants, UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Wed Nov 1 07:48:48 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2017 12:48:48 +0000 Subject: H7861 PSU issues In-Reply-To: <00fa01d352a4$b249ede0$16ddc9a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <87lgjr3yyp.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1zb3t71.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <00fa01d352a4$b249ede0$16ddc9a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20171101124848.ybRxk_b1pced%aaron@aaronsplace.co.uk> That's good to know. I'll head over to Maplin after work and pick up some timers and sockets. I removed one of the suspicious ceramic caps and tested it and it came out fine. The other cap is shared with the other oscillator so I assume it is fine. Thanks! Aaron. Rob Jarratt via cctech wrote: > I had a dead 555 on a completely different PSU, so it could be worth > checking. I socketed it when I replaced it so it was easy to replace again. > > Also, just because a capacitor doesn't appear swollen or show signs of > leakage, it seems that this doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't need > replacing. In yet another PSU that I repaired recently, replacing the > capacitors fixed it, although in the end I think the one that really fixed > it was showing signs of leakage. On a lot of caps that I replace they show > no leakage signs, but I do see a bit of a deposit on the negative terminal, > I am not sure if this is a sign of any kind of problem. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Aaron > > Jackson via cctech > > Sent: 31 October 2017 21:26 > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: H7861 PSU issues > > > > Just had another look after watching a video about how switch mode power > > supplies work.... On the small control board connecting to J4, there are > two > > D44Q1 transistors. As expected, there is about 65KHz going into the base > of the > > transistor for the 5V side. However, there is no signal going into the > base of the > > transistor for the 12V side, from pin 3 of the 555. So, it looks like the > problem is > > coming from around here. I measured the suspicious components around the > > 555 and they seem fine. > > > > How likely is it that the 555 is dead? There is 10v going into pin 8, > which I > > believe is correct. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Aaron. > > > > > > > > > > > > Aaron Jackson writes: > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > I've been trying to figure out what is wrong with the 12V rail on my > > > H7861 (BA11-S) power supply. It's showing about 4.2V. The 5V rail is > > > spot on. > > > > > > Page 39 of the following schematics is the main part board of the PSU. > > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP01233_BA11-S_schem_Mar81.pdf > > > > > > Going into the collector of Q3 is about 80V coming straight from T2 (I > > > think I measured it at about 100Hz), but the emitter is putting out > > > the 4.2V, which is the same as the base voltage and output voltage. I > > > tried replacing this transistor because the hFE was about 80 and a > > > good one was about 120. Unfortunately it didn't do anything. > > > > > > None of the capacitors look swollen and I don't see any leakage. There > > > is a smaller board which I think goes into J4. The 12V side seems to > > > have a 555 timer and adjusting the pot doesn't change the voltage at > > > all. > > > > > > My understanding of switchmode power supplies is very poor. Does > > > anyone have some pointers on what to check or what might be the possible > > cause? > > > > > > Hopefully I can get my PDP up and running again... Only got about 20 > > > minutes use out of it. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Aaron. > > > > > > -- > > Aaron Jackson > > PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham > > http://aaronsplace.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 1 12:10:00 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 10:10:00 -0700 Subject: DEC RX03 RT11A file extractor In-Reply-To: <4ad6d6bb-95e2-30a8-ed47-315620213a9c@sydex.com> References: <4ad6d6bb-95e2-30a8-ed47-315620213a9c@sydex.com> Message-ID: A bit more on the RX03 floppies and why putr probably dies. The home block for these contains the usual "DECRT11A" and "RT11A" tags, as well as the Rad-50 "V3A", cluster size and first directory segment pointer, but everything else in the block is set to ASCII space (hex 20), including the checksum. Is this usual for these floppies? --Chuck From wilson at dbit.com Wed Nov 1 12:33:27 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 13:33:27 -0400 Subject: DEC RX03 RT11A file extractor In-Reply-To: References: <4ad6d6bb-95e2-30a8-ed47-315620213a9c@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20171101173327.GA15534@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Nov 01, 2017 at 10:10:00AM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >A bit more on the RX03 floppies and why putr probably dies. > >The home block for these contains the usual "DECRT11A" and "RT11A" tags, >as well as the Rad-50 "V3A", cluster size and first directory segment >pointer, but everything else in the block is set to ASCII space (hex >20), including the checksum. > >Is this usual for these floppies? No, but it's what (at least some versions of) RSTS's "FIT" utility does when initializing a directory. If you'd be willing to send me a .DSK file, I'd be happy to have a little talk with PUTR. It's loooong overdue for an upgrade (and I'm loooong overdue for finishing a portable version I started ages ago, as a set of FUSE drivers I was going to roll into a utility that didn't rely on Linux's FUSE and would run anywhere). John Wilson D Bit From ethan at 757.org Wed Nov 1 13:29:07 2017 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 14:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BBS software was Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: <8cca43d3-5e3d-0c19-2259-f48669ec0ef7@gmail.com> <9978d921-cfdf-d410-4471-70fb20bf66e8@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I'd get a RS232toWIFI dongle, they're cheap and easy to make a connection > via simple terminal software to an outside telnet target. I don't think the RS232 to WIFI dongles from the one guy are often unavailable. I think the creator hand solders them in small batches or something. - EThan -- : Ethan O'Toole From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Nov 1 13:43:08 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 12:43:08 -0600 Subject: BBS software was Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: <8cca43d3-5e3d-0c19-2259-f48669ec0ef7@gmail.com> <9978d921-cfdf-d410-4471-70fb20bf66e8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:29 PM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: > I'd get a RS232toWIFI dongle, they're cheap and easy to make a connection >> via simple terminal software to an outside telnet target. >> > > I don't think the RS232 to WIFI dongles from the one guy are often > unavailable. I think the creator hand solders them in small batches or > something. > The ESP 8266's are available a dime a dozen and often have the proper firmware burned into them. At worst, you have to put a RS-232 DB-xx connector on and maybe a level shifter (depending on the ESP board you have, though most don't have them)... Warner From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 1 13:47:13 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 18:47:13 +0000 Subject: An interesting read Message-ID: Look at Dr Dobb's August 1979. There is an article on computer crime. It is interesting how times have changed. Dwight From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 1 16:58:52 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 14:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BBS software was Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: <8cca43d3-5e3d-0c19-2259-f48669ec0ef7@gmail.com> <9978d921-cfdf-d410-4471-70fb20bf66e8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Nov 2017, Ethan via cctalk wrote: >> I'd get a RS232toWIFI dongle, they're cheap and easy to make a connection >> via simple terminal software to an outside telnet target. > > I don't think the RS232 to WIFI dongles from the one guy are often > unavailable. I think the creator hand solders them in small batches or > something. > It's a great unit for doing "dial-out" only. Forget incoming though. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 1 17:00:55 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 15:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BBS software was Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: <8cca43d3-5e3d-0c19-2259-f48669ec0ef7@gmail.com> <9978d921-cfdf-d410-4471-70fb20bf66e8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Nov 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:29 PM, Ethan via cctalk > wrote: > >> I'd get a RS232toWIFI dongle, they're cheap and easy to make a connection >>> via simple terminal software to an outside telnet target. >>> >> >> I don't think the RS232 to WIFI dongles from the one guy are often >> unavailable. I think the creator hand solders them in small batches or >> something. >> > > The ESP 8266's are available a dime a dozen and often have the proper > firmware burned into them. At worst, you have to put a RS-232 DB-xx > connector on and maybe a level shifter (depending on the ESP board you > have, though most don't have them)... > ...and a pair of MAX232's if you plan on connecting it to real hardware equipped with an RS-232 port. I'd suggest starting with a NodeMCU. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From useddec at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 22:52:16 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 22:52:16 -0500 Subject: DEC BA350s, BA356s, drives, tapes, etc Message-ID: I have numerous BA350 and BA356 enclosures available along with the power supplies, etc. I will sell separately, or try to configure to your request. Please contact me off list. Shipping from 61820, Champaign, IL area Thanks, Paul From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 01:24:31 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 00:24:31 -0600 Subject: Otrona Attache disk format? Message-ID: >From the Otrona Attache Technical Manual, July 1983: "The diskettes Attache uses have fourty-six tracks on the top side and fifty tracks on the bottom side, [...]" Really??? From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Wed Nov 1 13:24:49 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2017 18:24:49 +0000 Subject: H7861 PSU issues In-Reply-To: <00fa01d352a4$b249ede0$16ddc9a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <87lgjr3yyp.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1zb3t71.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <00fa01d352a4$b249ede0$16ddc9a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <87inet5026.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Picked up a few 555s and sockets and now it works! I am very happy. Going from not knowing how switch mode power supplies work, to watching some YouTube videos, and then finally being able to debug the problem and fix it was a lot of fun. I wonder what will die next. Thanks, Aaron. Rob Jarratt writes: > I had a dead 555 on a completely different PSU, so it could be worth > checking. I socketed it when I replaced it so it was easy to replace again. > > Also, just because a capacitor doesn't appear swollen or show signs of > leakage, it seems that this doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't need > replacing. In yet another PSU that I repaired recently, replacing the > capacitors fixed it, although in the end I think the one that really fixed > it was showing signs of leakage. On a lot of caps that I replace they show > no leakage signs, but I do see a bit of a deposit on the negative terminal, > I am not sure if this is a sign of any kind of problem. > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Aaron >> Jackson via cctech >> Sent: 31 October 2017 21:26 >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: H7861 PSU issues >> >> Just had another look after watching a video about how switch mode power >> supplies work.... On the small control board connecting to J4, there are > two >> D44Q1 transistors. As expected, there is about 65KHz going into the base > of the >> transistor for the 5V side. However, there is no signal going into the > base of the >> transistor for the 12V side, from pin 3 of the 555. So, it looks like the > problem is >> coming from around here. I measured the suspicious components around the >> 555 and they seem fine. >> >> How likely is it that the 555 is dead? There is 10v going into pin 8, > which I >> believe is correct. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Aaron. >> >> >> >> >> >> Aaron Jackson writes: >> >> > Hi everyone, >> > >> > I've been trying to figure out what is wrong with the 12V rail on my >> > H7861 (BA11-S) power supply. It's showing about 4.2V. The 5V rail is >> > spot on. >> > >> > Page 39 of the following schematics is the main part board of the PSU. >> > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP01233_BA11-S_schem_Mar81.pdf >> > >> > Going into the collector of Q3 is about 80V coming straight from T2 (I >> > think I measured it at about 100Hz), but the emitter is putting out >> > the 4.2V, which is the same as the base voltage and output voltage. I >> > tried replacing this transistor because the hFE was about 80 and a >> > good one was about 120. Unfortunately it didn't do anything. >> > >> > None of the capacitors look swollen and I don't see any leakage. There >> > is a smaller board which I think goes into J4. The 12V side seems to >> > have a 555 timer and adjusting the pot doesn't change the voltage at >> > all. >> > >> > My understanding of switchmode power supplies is very poor. Does >> > anyone have some pointers on what to check or what might be the possible >> cause? >> > >> > Hopefully I can get my PDP up and running again... Only got about 20 >> > minutes use out of it. >> > >> > Thanks! >> > >> > Aaron. >> >> >> -- >> Aaron Jackson >> PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham >> http://aaronsplace.co.uk -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 1 14:27:23 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 19:27:23 -0000 Subject: H7861 PSU issues In-Reply-To: <87inet5026.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87lgjr3yyp.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1zb3t71.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <00fa01d352a4$b249ede0$16ddc9a0$@ntlworld.com> <87inet5026.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <004901d35347$717f54f0$547dfed0$@ntlworld.com> Great news, congratulations! I am about to see if my H7826 works tonight after cleaning it up and replacing a few electrolytic capacitors. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron Jackson [mailto:aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk] > Sent: 01 November 2017 18:25 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk > Cc: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: Re: H7861 PSU issues > > Picked up a few 555s and sockets and now it works! I am very happy. Going > from not knowing how switch mode power supplies work, to watching some > YouTube videos, and then finally being able to debug the problem and fix it was > a lot of fun. > > I wonder what will die next. > > Thanks, > > Aaron. > > > Rob Jarratt writes: > > > I had a dead 555 on a completely different PSU, so it could be worth > > checking. I socketed it when I replaced it so it was easy to replace again. > > > > Also, just because a capacitor doesn't appear swollen or show signs of > > leakage, it seems that this doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't > > need replacing. In yet another PSU that I repaired recently, replacing > > the capacitors fixed it, although in the end I think the one that > > really fixed it was showing signs of leakage. On a lot of caps that I > > replace they show no leakage signs, but I do see a bit of a deposit on > > the negative terminal, I am not sure if this is a sign of any kind of problem. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >> Aaron Jackson via cctech > >> Sent: 31 October 2017 21:26 > >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >> Subject: Re: H7861 PSU issues > >> > >> Just had another look after watching a video about how switch mode > >> power supplies work.... On the small control board connecting to J4, > >> there are > > two > >> D44Q1 transistors. As expected, there is about 65KHz going into the > >> base > > of the > >> transistor for the 5V side. However, there is no signal going into > >> the > > base of the > >> transistor for the 12V side, from pin 3 of the 555. So, it looks like > >> the > > problem is > >> coming from around here. I measured the suspicious components around > >> the > >> 555 and they seem fine. > >> > >> How likely is it that the 555 is dead? There is 10v going into pin 8, > > which I > >> believe is correct. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Aaron. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Aaron Jackson writes: > >> > >> > Hi everyone, > >> > > >> > I've been trying to figure out what is wrong with the 12V rail on > >> > my > >> > H7861 (BA11-S) power supply. It's showing about 4.2V. The 5V rail > >> > is spot on. > >> > > >> > Page 39 of the following schematics is the main part board of the PSU. > >> > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP01233_BA11-S_schem_Mar81.pdf > >> > > >> > Going into the collector of Q3 is about 80V coming straight from T2 > >> > (I think I measured it at about 100Hz), but the emitter is putting > >> > out the 4.2V, which is the same as the base voltage and output > >> > voltage. I tried replacing this transistor because the hFE was > >> > about 80 and a good one was about 120. Unfortunately it didn't do > anything. > >> > > >> > None of the capacitors look swollen and I don't see any leakage. > >> > There is a smaller board which I think goes into J4. The 12V side > >> > seems to have a 555 timer and adjusting the pot doesn't change the > >> > voltage at all. > >> > > >> > My understanding of switchmode power supplies is very poor. Does > >> > anyone have some pointers on what to check or what might be the > >> > possible > >> cause? > >> > > >> > Hopefully I can get my PDP up and running again... Only got about > >> > 20 minutes use out of it. > >> > > >> > Thanks! > >> > > >> > Aaron. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Aaron Jackson > >> PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham > >> http://aaronsplace.co.uk > > > -- > Aaron Jackson > PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham > http://aaronsplace.co.uk From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 23:03:28 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 00:03:28 -0400 Subject: RK06 dirve Message-ID: Does anyone out there have an DEC RK06 drive? Bill From useddec at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 23:19:52 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 23:19:52 -0500 Subject: RK06 dirve In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I might have a controller and some RK06 and or RK07 packs. Also a few drive boards. On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 11:03 PM, william degnan via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Does anyone out there have an DEC RK06 drive? > Bill > From aap at papnet.eu Thu Nov 2 07:30:44 2017 From: aap at papnet.eu (Angelo Papenhoff) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 13:30:44 +0100 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <20171029182710.4706518C0DC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171029182710.4706518C0DC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20171102123044.GA50761@indra.papnet.eu> On 29/10/17, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Another fun KA10 fact: it used 'hardware subroutines' - i.e. a clock pulse > would get to a certain point, and get conditionally diverted through some > other circuitry, later to come back and continue where it left off. Whee! When I was taking a look at the CDC 1604 lately (btw, sadly two documents are missing on bitsavers) I saw pretty much the same thing. Something would set a flip-flop, go through the memory sequence, and continue from the point it left off. This reminded me of the PDP-6 immediately (which I'm very familiar with because of a logic-level emulator and verilog implementation I've written [1]). The indexing and indirection mechanism was also very similar. I suspect Gordon Bell was inspired by this machine a bit. I think I'll mail him about the 6 again... aap [1] https://github.com/aap/pdp6 From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 08:04:50 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 09:04:50 -0400 Subject: RK06 Data Cartridges / Alignment Cart Available (and other stuff) Message-ID: My last email was unclear...I have a few RK06 Data Cartridges and an Alignment Cart Available. Contact me privately if you have an RK06 drive and you're looking for carts. They look like RL02's maybe a hair thinner. I paid a small amt, and I am looking to be reimbursed for the cost. I have no RK06 drive. RK06 cartridges are NOT compatible with RK07's according to the manual. If you're in the Landenberg, PA area stop by, At some point I will publish a list of other DEC items I have in clean organized storage. Bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 2 08:25:38 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 09:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H7861 PSU issues Message-ID: <20171102132538.B76FA18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Aaron Jackson > Picked up a few 555s and sockets and now it works! Congratulations! It's odd that a 555 failed, but sometimes there's no rhyme or reason to what fails. E.g. I was fixing some broken M7859's (KY11-LB Programmer's Console), and on one of them a 7493 (4-bit counter) had died. That's not one of the 'problem' 74xx chips, like ISTR the 7474 being? Noel From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Thu Nov 2 09:22:42 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2017 14:22:42 +0000 Subject: H7861 PSU issues In-Reply-To: <20171102132538.B76FA18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171102132538.B76FA18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20171102142242.e1dVovZ9EnG3%aaron@aaronsplace.co.uk> Thanks! It was very satisfying and not the worst thing to go wrong for a beginner. I was also quite surprised that such a simple component would die, and what I find more confusing is that it died while I was using the machine. Aaron. Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Aaron Jackson > > > Picked up a few 555s and sockets and now it works! > > Congratulations! > > It's odd that a 555 failed, but sometimes there's no rhyme or reason to what > fails. E.g. I was fixing some broken M7859's (KY11-LB Programmer's Console), > and on one of them a 7493 (4-bit counter) had died. That's not one of the > 'problem' 74xx chips, like ISTR the 7474 being? > > Noel From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 10:04:28 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 15:04:28 +0000 Subject: H7861 PSU issues In-Reply-To: <20171102142242.e1dVovZ9EnG3%aaron@aaronsplace.co.uk> References: <20171102132538.B76FA18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20171102142242.e1dVovZ9EnG3%aaron@aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: >I was also quite surprised that such a simple component would die, >and what I find more confusing is that it died while I was using >the machine. A 555 can also take a Commodore PET down because it's solely in charge of the RESET circuit, and no RESET == no PET. On 2 November 2017 at 14:22, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Thanks! It was very satisfying and not the worst thing to go wrong > for a beginner. > > I was also quite surprised that such a simple component would die, > and what I find more confusing is that it died while I was using > the machine. > > Aaron. > > Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > > From: Aaron Jackson > > > > > Picked up a few 555s and sockets and now it works! > > > > Congratulations! > > > > It's odd that a 555 failed, but sometimes there's no rhyme or reason to > what > > fails. E.g. I was fixing some broken M7859's (KY11-LB Programmer's > Console), > > and on one of them a 7493 (4-bit counter) had died. That's not one of the > > 'problem' 74xx chips, like ISTR the 7474 being? > > > > Noel > -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Nov 2 10:14:10 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 15:14:10 -0000 Subject: H7861 PSU issues In-Reply-To: <20171102142242.e1dVovZ9EnG3%aaron@aaronsplace.co.uk> References: <20171102132538.B76FA18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20171102142242.e1dVovZ9EnG3%aaron@aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: <007101d353ed$3be7fc10$b3b7f430$@ntlworld.com> In my case the PSU where I had this still does not work. It is a H7140 from a PDP-11/24. I found the failed 555 after help from a list member, but when I replaced it and powered on there was a big bang (I should have told you that!). I have never been able to repair this PSU and I need someone who really knows what they are doing to repair it as I think it is beyond me. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Aaron > Jackson via cctalk > Sent: 02 November 2017 14:23 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: H7861 PSU issues > > Thanks! It was very satisfying and not the worst thing to go wrong for a > beginner. > > I was also quite surprised that such a simple component would die, and what I > find more confusing is that it died while I was using the machine. > > Aaron. > > Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > > From: Aaron Jackson > > > > > Picked up a few 555s and sockets and now it works! > > > > Congratulations! > > > > It's odd that a 555 failed, but sometimes there's no rhyme or reason > > to what fails. E.g. I was fixing some broken M7859's (KY11-LB > > Programmer's Console), and on one of them a 7493 (4-bit counter) had > > died. That's not one of the 'problem' 74xx chips, like ISTR the 7474 being? > > > > Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 2 11:24:12 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 12:24:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H7861 PSU issues Message-ID: <20171102162412.06A7418C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rob Jarratt > when I replaced it and powered on there was a big bang What went 'bang'? (I assume if there was a loud noise, it mus have left visible damage somewhere.) Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Nov 2 12:00:19 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 17:00:19 -0000 Subject: H7861 PSU issues In-Reply-To: <20171102162412.06A7418C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171102162412.06A7418C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <007601d353fc$10b22250$321666f0$@ntlworld.com> I rather cut the story short, I did repair the damage and had the PSU working again very briefly, but something else failed somewhere and it just does not work correctly. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa via cctalk > Sent: 02 November 2017 16:24 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: H7861 PSU issues > > > From: Rob Jarratt > > > when I replaced it and powered on there was a big bang > > What went 'bang'? (I assume if there was a loud noise, it mus have left visible > damage somewhere.) > > Noel From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 12:56:08 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 18:56:08 +0100 Subject: BBS software was Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <9978d921-cfdf-d410-4471-70fb20bf66e8@gmail.com> References: <8cca43d3-5e3d-0c19-2259-f48669ec0ef7@gmail.com> <9978d921-cfdf-d410-4471-70fb20bf66e8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 31 October 2017 at 23:02, tom sparks via cctalk wrote: > I am looking for BBS software to run on my linux computer that i can use to > down/up-load stuff for my psion 5mx The 5MX can talk IRDA, you know, which might be easier but is line-of-sight only. This may be informative: http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/pdf/Psion-HOWTO.pdf Also see: http://palmtop.cosi.com.pl/2012/12/28/psion-linux-pc-and-a-cable/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 2 14:50:11 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Otrona Attache disk format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: NO. SS,DS 40 tps,80 tps CP/M, MS-DOS 10 x 512bps I'll dig out info if I get out of hospital On Thu, 2 Nov 2017, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >> From the Otrona Attache Technical Manual, July 1983: > > "The diskettes Attache uses have fourty-six tracks on the top side and > fifty tracks on the bottom side, [...]" > > Really??? > -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 234-3397 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 16:43:11 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 17:43:11 -0400 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <8d9fb735-cc8a-c313-4ce0-72c39eb76eb0@snarc.net> Message-ID: <05C40A081DA9422F95275B5810AA1042@310e2> I'll forward your supercilious and ill-informed comment to the folks I know who do in fact use an M100; I'm sure they will be amused... m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 3:47 PM Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA >> Radio Shack M100 ... still used by some writers for the very reason you mention. > > That is not true. > > It was an urban legend in the 1990s that a handful of old farts in the > entirely sportswriting industry (thousands of writers overall) may > "still" be using their Model 100s. I'm sure if you looked hard enough > some of them still used typewriters too. > > In 2017? It's ridiculous to even speculate. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 2 19:18:53 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 17:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <009701d350ce$1f7e91f0$5e7bb5d0$@gmail.com> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> <009701d350ce$1f7e91f0$5e7bb5d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Oct 2017, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > I am not sure they invented computer emulation. I think that the concept > Emulation/Simulation is as old as, or perhaps even older than computing. Henry Ford is attributed with "car racing began 5 minutes after the second car was built." BUT, I'm not sure whether the second computer caared about emulating the first one. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 2 19:37:37 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 17:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Otrona / Hospital Message-ID: I was not able to get access to any of my notes to more completely answer Eric's question. Short answer: NO. Otrona did not have two different obscure numbers of tracks for their disk sides. On the limited number of Otronas that I encountered. What I encountered was very straight-forward WD-like ordinarty disk formats. IIRC, they were 10 sectors per track, with 512 bytes per sector. There were 40 cylinder and 80 cylinder. There was a CP/M, and an MS-DOS. I don't remember what the distribution of those formats was, although I specifically remember a 96tpi (800k) MS-DOS. Ironically, the first one that I saw was a doctor at a hospital. To flog the point about portability, Otrona did an early ad with a Chaplin imitator trying to carry a card table with a PC on it down steps in front of a building (capitol?) IBM claimed to own Chaplin (and did apparently pay royalties to Chaplin estate), although Chaplin himself was not a big fan of biug corporation. I wasn't able to answer more fully, nor even now. I just spent a week in the hospital. giant kidney stone and massive infection. First few days were intolerable levels of pain. I am now on 2 weeks of 24/7 IV antibiotic infusions. Bizarre little pump that I carry around, but, at least I'm carrying it around at home, instead of the hospital. THEN, in 2 weeks? they will operate to try to remove the stone. They are hoping to do it with trans-urethral laser, with lithotripsy as a fall back. I had not prepared for being in the hospital, so only had a phone (Samsung Galaxy S4), and it wasn't until the third day that I was able to wrangel access to my pants (and pocket contents) I think that I will recover. THANK YOU to the folk who wrote to me with good wishes! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Nov 2 20:17:27 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2017 20:17:27 -0500 Subject: Otrona / Hospital In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59FBC3A7.7080504@pico-systems.com> On 11/02/2017 07:37 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > giant kidney stone and massive infection. First few days > were intolerable levels of pain. WOW! Sorry to hear about this, and hope the surgery gets the stone out and you recover well and quickly! Jon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 2 20:25:41 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 18:25:41 -0700 Subject: Otrona / Hospital In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28753f47-9979-4324-5693-46c66eb14bf4@sydex.com> Well, when in doubt, check 22Disk, right? Here are the CP/M formats: BEGIN OTR1 Otrona Attache - DSDD 48 tpi 5.25" DENSITY MFM, LOW CYLINDERS 40 SIDES 2 SECTORS 10,512 SKEW 2 SIDE1 0 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 SIDE2 1 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 ORDER EAGLE BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 181 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 3 END BEGIN OTR2 Otrona Attache - DSDD 96 tpi 5.25" DENSITY MFM, LOW CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 2 SECTORS 10,512 SKEW 2 SIDE1 0 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 SIDE2 1 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 ORDER CYLINDERS BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 0 DSM 386 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 3 END I have samples on file--and probably the MS-DOS ones somewhere. What's interesting is that the treatment of the second side is different between 48 and 96 tpi versions. The EXM difference is also interesting--could be an error, but I've received no reports on it. --Chuck From dce at skynet.be Thu Nov 2 21:45:24 2017 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 03:45:24 +0100 Subject: Otrona / Hospital In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Courage and good luck ! > I wasn't able to answer more fully, nor even now.? I just spent a week > in the hospital.? giant kidney stone and massive infection.? First few > days were intolerable levels of pain.? I am now on 2 weeks of 24/7 IV > antibiotic infusions.? Bizarre little pump that I carry around, but, > at least I'm carrying it around at home, instead of the hospital. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com > From tomasparks.ts at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 18:56:38 2017 From: tomasparks.ts at gmail.com (tom sparks) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 09:56:38 +1000 Subject: BBS software was Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: <8cca43d3-5e3d-0c19-2259-f48669ec0ef7@gmail.com> <9978d921-cfdf-d410-4471-70fb20bf66e8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 03/11/17 03:56, Liam Proven wrote: > On 31 October 2017 at 23:02, tom sparks via cctalk > wrote: >> I am looking for BBS software to run on my linux computer that i can use to >> down/up-load stuff for my psion 5mx > The 5MX can talk IRDA, you know, which might be easier but is > line-of-sight only. > > This may be informative: > > http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/pdf/Psion-HOWTO.pdf > > Also see: > > http://palmtop.cosi.com.pl/2012/12/28/psion-linux-pc-and-a-cable/ > I'm look at the reverse case psion to PC From cctalk at snarc.net Thu Nov 2 19:03:21 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 20:03:21 -0400 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <05C40A081DA9422F95275B5810AA1042@310e2> References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <8d9fb735-cc8a-c313-4ce0-72c39eb76eb0@snarc.net> <05C40A081DA9422F95275B5810AA1042@310e2> Message-ID: > I'll forward your supercilious and ill-informed comment to the folks I know who do in fact use an M100; I'm sure they will be amused... BS. I've been a professional full-time journalist for 20 years. No one in their right mind is using anything older than a last-gen laptop. Maybe two generations if they're poor like me. > > m > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Evan Koblentz via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 3:47 PM > Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA > > >>> Radio Shack M100 ... still used by some writers for the very reason you mention. >> >> That is not true. >> >> It was an urban legend in the 1990s that a handful of old farts in the >> entirely sportswriting industry (thousands of writers overall) may >> "still" be using their Model 100s. I'm sure if you looked hard enough >> some of them still used typewriters too. >> >> In 2017? It's ridiculous to even speculate. > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 02:10:00 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 00:10:00 -0700 Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK Message-ID: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> The link below is from the computer museum in Cambridge, UK, which seems to have a copy of an HP 2640 terminal manual I am looking for. Is anyone from that museum on the list? Does any of the UK members know them? http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/14373/HP-2640-Series-Character-Set-Ge neration/ Does anyone on the list have a copy of this manual? Marc From lproven at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 03:36:47 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 09:36:47 +0100 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <8d9fb735-cc8a-c313-4ce0-72c39eb76eb0@snarc.net> <05C40A081DA9422F95275B5810AA1042@310e2> Message-ID: On 3 November 2017 at 01:03, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > > BS. > > I've been a professional full-time journalist for 20 years. No one in their > right mind is using anything older than a last-gen laptop. Maybe two > generations if they're poor like me. Not full-time, but still a paid scribbler for everything from PC Mag to MacUser. In this century, I have written columns on a Mac Classic II (in the 21st century) and on an early-1990s 386sx laptop under WordPerfect 5.1. I have toted a Thinkpad Butterfly internationally, repeatedly. I am currently building a bootable Live USB with PC-DOS 7.1 and MS Word 6 for DOS as a distraction-free writing tool. Yeah, some people totally do. Weirdos, probably, but yes. And I am typing this on an IBM Model M (made 1994-05-06) which is attached to my Core i5 Thinkpad X220, bought used in January for ?150, which is my newest and most powerful laptop. In fact probably my newest computer of any kind. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 05:33:24 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 10:33:24 -0000 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> <009701d350ce$1f7e91f0$5e7bb5d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <03f901d3548f$2db24270$8916c750$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > via cctalk > Sent: 03 November 2017 00:19 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > > On Sun, 29 Oct 2017, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > I am not sure they invented computer emulation. I think that the > > concept Emulation/Simulation is as old as, or perhaps even older than > computing. > > Henry Ford is attributed with "car racing began 5 minutes after the second car > was built." > BUT, I'm not sure whether the second computer caared about emulating the > first one. > Fred It was the other way round. So you know the second computer will be better than the first, but you haven't built it yet, so you emulate it on the first. It's a common technique and was used by the ENIAC team to emulate an EDVAC type machine, IBM also used it extensively when developing new hardware, especially 370/XA... Dave From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 05:41:04 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 10:41:04 -0000 Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> References: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <03fb01d35490$400f3a80$c02daf80$@gmail.com> Marc, They seem to have a big collection of Manuals but no intention of scanning them, or making them available other than on personal request. I am in the UK but have never been. Let me e-mail and ask. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > CuriousMarc via cctalk > Sent: 03 November 2017 07:10 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK > > The link below is from the computer museum in Cambridge, UK, which > seems to have a copy of an HP 2640 terminal manual I am looking for. Is > anyone from that museum on the list? Does any of the UK members know > them? > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/14373/HP-2640-Series-Character- > Set-Ge > neration/ > > Does anyone on the list have a copy of this manual? > > Marc > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 12:37:45 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 17:37:45 +0000 Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: <03fb01d35490$400f3a80$c02daf80$@gmail.com> References: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> <03fb01d35490$400f3a80$c02daf80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well they say they would like to scan but no resource. Available to view on three days notice Dave On 3 Nov 2017 10:41, "Dave Wade" wrote: > Marc, > They seem to have a big collection of Manuals but no intention of scanning > them, or making them available other than on personal request. I am in the > UK but have never been. Let me e-mail and ask. > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > CuriousMarc via cctalk > > Sent: 03 November 2017 07:10 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK > > > > The link below is from the computer museum in Cambridge, UK, which > > seems to have a copy of an HP 2640 terminal manual I am looking for. Is > > anyone from that museum on the list? Does any of the UK members know > > them? > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/14373/HP-2640-Series-Character- > > Set-Ge > > neration/ > > > > Does anyone on the list have a copy of this manual? > > > > Marc > > > > > > > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Nov 3 12:53:51 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 13:53:51 -0400 Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK Message-ID: <2606ae.2e849f25.472e072e@aol.com> what about the kind folks at the hp museum? Ed# In a message dated 11/3/2017 10:38:04 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Well they say they would like to scan but no resource. Available to view on three days notice Dave On 3 Nov 2017 10:41, "Dave Wade" wrote: > Marc, > They seem to have a big collection of Manuals but no intention of scanning > them, or making them available other than on personal request. I am in the > UK but have never been. Let me e-mail and ask. > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > CuriousMarc via cctalk > > Sent: 03 November 2017 07:10 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK > > > > The link below is from the computer museum in Cambridge, UK, which > > seems to have a copy of an HP 2640 terminal manual I am looking for. Is > > anyone from that museum on the list? Does any of the UK members know > > them? > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/14373/HP-2640-Series-Character- > > Set-Ge > > neration/ > > > > Does anyone on the list have a copy of this manual? > > > > Marc > > > > > > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 12:57:12 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 12:57:12 -0500 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <8d9fb735-cc8a-c313-4ce0-72c39eb76eb0@snarc.net> <05C40A081DA9422F95275B5810AA1042@310e2> Message-ID: Hey, TRS-80 M100 rocks! I've got several, and they all work perfectly to this day. Built by Kyocera, who isn't known for making junk.. The 30+ hr. battery life alone is enough to earn them a high rating, and they have a built-in terminal program. I've used them to control headless Linux boxes several times via serial port. I believe they do 9600 or possibly 19200. If anyone is still in want of a PDA, I have a very nice Palm IIIxe w/ cradle that should have a decent home. It's already had the ROM flashed to the newest supported version. Prefer trade for C-64 stuff. On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 3:36 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3 November 2017 at 01:03, Evan Koblentz via cctalk > wrote: > > > > BS. > > > > I've been a professional full-time journalist for 20 years. No one in > their > > right mind is using anything older than a last-gen laptop. Maybe two > > generations if they're poor like me. > > Not full-time, but still a paid scribbler for everything from PC Mag to > MacUser. > > In this century, I have written columns on a Mac Classic II (in the > 21st century) and on an early-1990s 386sx laptop under WordPerfect > 5.1. I have toted a Thinkpad Butterfly internationally, repeatedly. I > am currently building a bootable Live USB with PC-DOS 7.1 and MS Word > 6 for DOS as a distraction-free writing tool. > > Yeah, some people totally do. Weirdos, probably, but yes. > > And I am typing this on an IBM Model M (made 1994-05-06) which is > attached to my Core i5 Thinkpad X220, bought used in January for ?150, > which is my newest and most powerful laptop. In fact probably my > newest computer of any kind. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > From tingox at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 13:59:53 2017 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 19:59:53 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Calendar 2018 In-Reply-To: References: <93e168777f387f473cdc5da5acf55cdf@bfree.on.ca> Message-ID: FYI, On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 4:59 AM, Syd Bolton via cctalk wrote: > > > Hey folks; > The Personal Computer Museum (http://www.pcmuseum.ca) is > offering a beautiful 2018 vintage computer calendar as a fundraiser. The > calendars are in hand and the cost is $20 Canadian (no tax). I got my calendar today, it looks great! Have a nice weekend everyone! -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 3 14:30:24 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 12:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: <2606ae.2e849f25.472e072e@aol.com> References: <2606ae.2e849f25.472e072e@aol.com> Message-ID: > > Well they say they would like to scan but no resource. Available to > > view on three days notice On Fri, 3 Nov 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: > what about the kind folks at the hp museum? . . . and' don't they have some sort of archive in Santa Rosa? From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Nov 3 15:17:35 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 16:17:35 -0400 Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK Message-ID: <261ab3.23fc590a.472e28de@aol.com> no.... the other hp museum! across the pond! http://hpmuseum.net/ good people! it may already be online they have done a good job scanning stuff. ed# In a message dated 11/3/2017 12:30:36 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > Well they say they would like to scan but no resource. Available to > > view on three days notice On Fri, 3 Nov 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: > what about the kind folks at the hp museum? . . . and' don't they have some sort of archive in Santa Rosa? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 3 16:20:17 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 14:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is there a reason to AVOID mentioning the Poqet? The original MSRP at announcement was WAY too high, and priced it out of the market, but the actual/street price wasn't bad. Larger keyboard that the HP (which was otherwise a better deal for the price) AA batteries with long life. two PCMCIA slots (before PCMCIA was officially named and standardized) Bus connector, with a few unobtanium accessories, such as 3.5" drive. Had LOTUS available as a ROM card! MS-DOS 5.00 - I learned how to write TSRs on one. From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 16:22:31 2017 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 08:22:31 +1100 Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: <261ab3.23fc590a.472e28de@aol.com> References: <261ab3.23fc590a.472e28de@aol.com> Message-ID: Already checked, not one we have unfortunately. If one turns up we?ll be happy to put it up on the website though! David Collins HP Computer Museum Sent from my iPad > On 4 Nov 2017, at 7:17 am, Ed via cctalk wrote: > > no.... the other hp museum! > across the pond! > http://hpmuseum.net/ > > good people! > > > it may already be online they have done a good job scanning stuff. > > ed# > > > In a message dated 11/3/2017 12:30:36 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > >>> Well they say they would like to scan but no resource. Available to >>> view on three days notice >> On Fri, 3 Nov 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: >> >> what about the kind folks at the hp museum? > > . . . and' don't they have some sort of archive in Santa Rosa? > > > > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 16:50:16 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 16:50:16 -0500 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: PCMCIA... People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms? On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Is there a reason to AVOID mentioning the Poqet? > > The original MSRP at announcement was WAY too high, and priced it out of > the market, but the actual/street price wasn't bad. > > Larger keyboard that the HP (which was otherwise a better deal for the > price) > AA batteries with long life. > two PCMCIA slots (before PCMCIA was officially named and standardized) > Bus connector, with a few unobtanium accessories, such as 3.5" drive. > Had LOTUS available as a ROM card! > MS-DOS 5.00 - I learned how to write TSRs on one. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 3 16:53:31 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 14:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2017, drlegendre . wrote: > PCMCIA... People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms? Exactly! But, they sometimes try to convince us that it means "Personal Computer Memory Card Instustry Association", which is far less credible From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Nov 3 16:55:10 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 14:55:10 -0700 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c4bad90-2624-f93a-cc37-6c29891db166@jwsss.com> On 11/3/2017 2:20 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Is there a reason to AVOID mentioning the Poqet? There is one and two accessories for sale right now.? I'd forgotten about it till I stumbled over it searching for other stuff. POQET-PC-Prime-model-PQ0181-SN-018100007766 https://www.ebay.com/itm/202096438151 POQET-serial-port-adapter-PQ-0571-with-BlackBox-serial-port-crossover-switch https://www.ebay.com/itm/202096456575 POQET-Parallel-Port-Cable-model-PQ-0572 https://www.ebay.com/itm/202096426280 The seller has split up the sales, not a good thing, I'm thinking. Seems like an all or none sort of thing.? It's up higher now that I'd buy, but I was reluctant with the parts in separate auctions. thanks Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 3 17:54:20 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 15:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: <261ab3.23fc590a.472e28de@aol.com> References: <261ab3.23fc590a.472e28de@aol.com> Message-ID: >> what about the kind folks at the hp museum? > . . . and' don't they have some sort of archive in Santa Rosa? On Fri, 3 Nov 2017, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > no.... the other hp museum! I know. I was trying to joke about their recent loss, but that one is probably TOO SOON. :-) From lproven at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 18:21:33 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 00:21:33 +0100 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3 November 2017 at 22:53, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Exactly! > > But, they sometimes try to convince us that it means "Personal Computer > Memory Card Instustry Association", which is far less credible OK, next, for 2 points. What does TWAIN stand for? No conferring or consulting research materials. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Nov 3 18:26:26 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 17:26:26 -0600 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3 November 2017 at 22:53, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > Exactly! > > > > But, they sometimes try to convince us that it means "Personal Computer > > Memory Card Instustry Association", which is far less credible > > OK, next, for 2 points. What does TWAIN stand for? No conferring or > consulting research materials. It's the initials from the French name for "Standard Scanner Interface" :) Warner From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 10:58:08 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 11:58:08 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> <009701d350ce$1f7e91f0$5e7bb5d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0794a28c-7b65-d70d-b3c6-105236bef1f6@gmail.com> On 11/02/2017 08:18 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 29 Oct 2017, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> I am not sure they invented computer emulation. I think that the concept >> Emulation/Simulation is as old as, or perhaps even older than computing. > > Henry Ford is attributed with "car racing began 5 minutes after the > second car was built." > BUT, I'm not sure whether the second computer cared about emulating > the first one. > > Emulation of another computer was important to two groups early on... designers that wanted to try new architecture and the result of evolution and retirement of hardware the need to run costly to develop programs for which source or the needed components had become extinct.? The latter I believe is more rampant since the mid 70s with machines getting replaced with bigger and faster at an ever increasing rate.?? That cycle is wound so tight now that if you can buy it its likely obsolete.? It is also part of the more computers being available and CPU cycles on them being cheaper back in the late 70s and into the 80s made it useful to use them to get the work from the last machine useful to design the next machine.? Personal example:? Altair built and running by Jan 75 as an early adoptor. less than a year and a half NS* Horizon.? Why?? First Z80 runs 8080 code, it was faster, better hardware.?? It ran deeper but thats the 30,000 ft view of change.? And so it went to faster, more memory till PDP-11 push that to auxiliary role followed by my first 32bit VAX.? It would take 486DX/66 with networking to dislodge that.?? Fortunately the bigger faster could emulate the older slower sufficiently to run the software that was of greater value. So here we are...? WIN10 has to have emulation/visualization to run old 32bit and earlier software as 64bit architecture gets in the way.? The only reason the system is 64 bit is replacement of a dead 32bit that was satisfactory in every way save for its now unobtainium.? So it goes.... I'll bet that the Henry Ford comment was followed by a comment from someone making a better car to beat the second one!? It also forgets the market for used cars was born right then.? Allison From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Nov 3 13:24:43 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 14:24:43 -0400 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <8d9fb735-cc8a-c313-4ce0-72c39eb76eb0@snarc.net> <05C40A081DA9422F95275B5810AA1042@310e2> Message-ID: > Hey, TRS-80 M100 rocks! I've got several, and they all work perfectly to > this day. Built by Kyocera, who isn't known for making junk. I agree, just not with the nutty claim that real writers still use them as modern tools. That was an urban legend with maybe some tiny grain of truth 25 years ago. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Nov 3 19:07:30 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 20:07:30 -0400 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <0794a28c-7b65-d70d-b3c6-105236bef1f6@gmail.com> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> <009701d350ce$1f7e91f0$5e7bb5d0$@gmail.com> <0794a28c-7b65-d70d-b3c6-105236bef1f6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <953548EC-7419-4ABC-AB30-15C88E7CF865@comcast.net> > On Nov 3, 2017, at 11:58 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > Emulation of another computer was important to two groups early on... > designers > that wanted to try new architecture and the result of evolution and > retirement of > hardware the need to run costly to develop programs for which source or the > needed components had become extinct. The latter I believe is more rampant > since the mid 70s with machines getting replaced with bigger and faster > at an > ever increasing rate. Could be. Then again, today's main architectures are all decades old; they get refined but not redone. Emulation of new architectures on old ones goes back quite a long time. I've seen a document from 1964, describing the emulation of the Electrologica X8 (which came out around 1964) on its predecessor the X1 (which dates back to 1958). paul From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Nov 3 19:10:03 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 20:10:03 -0400 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA Message-ID: <263429.260e4b9.472e5f5a@aol.com> In days of old would use one with a 50 ft ribbon cable as a 'portable' console fro one of my hp 2000 systems I would just rag it around to wherever I was in the Computer Room. or into the front office west of the computer room as the back of the 2000 was against that wall. In those days seemed so amazing to do so! Ed# In a message dated 11/3/2017 10:57:23 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Hey, TRS-80 M100 rocks! I've got several, and they all work perfectly to this day. Built by Kyocera, who isn't known for making junk.. The 30+ hr. battery life alone is enough to earn them a high rating, and they have a built-in terminal program. I've used them to control headless Linux boxes several times via serial port. I believe they do 9600 or possibly 19200. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 20:51:48 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 21:51:48 -0400 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <8d9fb735-cc8a-c313-4ce0-72c39eb76eb0@snarc.net> <05C40A081DA9422F95275B5810AA1042@310e2> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz via cctalk" To: "drlegendre ." ; "Liam Proven" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 2:24 PM Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA >> Hey, TRS-80 M100 rocks! I've got several, and they all work perfectly to >> this day. Built by Kyocera, who isn't known for making junk. > > I agree, just not with the nutty claim that real writers still use them > as modern tools. That was an urban legend with maybe some tiny grain of > truth 25 years ago. Well, if you're defining 'writer' as "a professional full-time journalist" whose main concerns are deadlines, word counts, editors' demands etc. and who has to be connected to the Internet every second then you're probably correct when it comes to usage today, although I wouldn't be surprised if some do use an obsolete device for jotting down ideas and notes as the OP wants to do. But I didn't say *professional* writers still use M100s. I said "some writers", and I think the folks who self-publish stories on the Internet, enter writing contests, contribute to the various on-line magazines etc. or just write for pleasure and entertainment of friends and family are every bit as much 'writers' as your elite group of 'real writers', and some of them do indeed prefer the M100 and its cousins to their modern laptops and desktops for its unique features. As Bill Loguidice observed in a thread elsewhere about your opinionated post, "...there really is no true modern equivalent to what the M100 series can do", especially when equipped with modern multi-MB RAM and storage expansions, USB, WiFi and Bluetooth connectivity options, multiple tools and programs instantly accessible from ROM etc., etc. > "It was an urban legend in the 1990s that a handful of old farts in the entirely sportswriting industry (thousands of writers overall) may "still" be using their Model 100s." How many in a 'handful'? Perhaps not many in the 90s but they were certainly popular with journalists in the 80s; a few years ago I chatted for a while with a British professional full-time motorsport journalist who did indeed use an M100 for composing and uploading, as did quite a few of his fellow journalists at the time. Wikipedia and Infoworld: "Tandy stated that the Model 100's sales "have only been moderate", and an InfoWorld columnist later claimed that "it was only journalists" who had been buying it. The system's popularity with journalists, however, probably helped Radio Shack improve the company's poor reputation with the press and in the industry." A little before your time of course... But despite (or because of) your use of rude words like 'nutty' and 'BS' you have provided a few chuckles for the folks in the user groups(s) who are or know writers who do in fact use M100s and similar devices. They just may know more about who uses them today and for what than you presume to know.. m From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 22:32:49 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 22:32:49 -0500 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA Message-ID: <59fd34e5.c1d6ca0a.f9785.2c30@mx.google.com> I could have sworn there was a newer black colored m100 type system that someone was selling a bunch of on ebay. Iirc they were calling it the tandy killer and i thougbt it was a "slate". I did forget about the m100 pc expansion though (price is always higher than desirable). But best of both worlds. Super portable m100 and plug it in at desk ams have a monitor, memory expansion and dual disk drive. Always wanted to find one for the right price. The poqet is also a great mention for compatability in a palmtop.? I think the bad part is all these great choices also have higher prices for their usability.? You sort of "need" the expansions on the poqet.?? Back to the hp 200lx standard (small plug) but sorta easy to make a serial cable and use as a termial also. That's why we only find the lesser units and these all hover over 100.:-( null From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 3 22:52:44 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 20:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <59fd34e5.c1d6ca0a.f9785.2c30@mx.google.com> References: <59fd34e5.c1d6ca0a.f9785.2c30@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2017, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote: > I could have sworn there was a newer black colored m100 type system that > someone was selling a bunch of on ebay. Iirc they were calling it the > tandy killer and i thougbt it was a "slate". Convergent Technologies "Workslate". sexy machine Far from a killer. Unless you are one who defines spreadsheet as "killing" word processor. Take a look at the Epson Geneva PX-8. CP/M. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 23:49:45 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 22:49:45 -0600 Subject: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? In-Reply-To: <953548EC-7419-4ABC-AB30-15C88E7CF865@comcast.net> References: <000601d34c8b$22e9f740$68bde5c0$@sc.rr.com> <00b801d34d3a$902f0980$b08d1c80$@sc.rr.com> <53F4C4AB-8C4B-45BA-ACB6-8A73002C0D2C@comcast.net> <00b601d34ee6$454e99a0$cfebcce0$@sc.rr.com> <05c301d34f01$259cf000$70d6d000$@gmail.com> <37a1eeb4-6148-555f-ba66-2867fc09e69e@charter.net> <2B51F368-8ECD-4200-8D4B-E82719C1A405@comcast.net> <009701d350ce$1f7e91f0$5e7bb5d0$@gmail.com> <0794a28c-7b65-d70d-b3c6-105236bef1f6@gmail.com> <953548EC-7419-4ABC-AB30-15C88E7CF865@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Could be. Then again, today's main architectures are all decades old; > they get refined but not redone. > I'm not sure whether you consider the 64-bit ARM architecture to be one of "today's main architectures", though it's probably shipping in higher unit volume than x86. Anyhow, the 64-bit ARM architecture is pretty much brand new; it's not the 32-bit ARM architecture stretched to 64 bits. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 23:50:19 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 21:50:19 -0700 Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: References: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> <03fb01d35490$400f3a80$c02daf80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <044001d35528$6b4c1f40$41e45dc0$@gmail.com> Dave, Thank you so much for enquiring. Not an uncommon problem, scanning (and even just cataloging) is so resource intensive. Well, at least they cataloged it properly and made the entry available on the web, so we should be grateful for that. Is someone in the UK close enough to go view it and take pictures of the pages? Would be nice if they could consider lending it to another institution or a researcher for scanning (CHM, hpmuseum.net, come to mind). Marc From: Dave Wade [mailto:dave.g4ugm at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 10:38 AM To: CuriousMarc; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK Well they say they would like to scan but no resource. Available to view on three days notice Dave On 3 Nov 2017 10:41, "Dave Wade" wrote: Marc, They seem to have a big collection of Manuals but no intention of scanning them, or making them available other than on personal request. I am in the UK but have never been. Let me e-mail and ask. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > CuriousMarc via cctalk > Sent: 03 November 2017 07:10 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK > > The link below is from the computer museum in Cambridge, UK, which > seems to have a copy of an HP 2640 terminal manual I am looking for. Is > anyone from that museum on the list? Does any of the UK members know > them? > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/14373/HP-2640-Series-Character- > Set-Ge > neration/ > > Does anyone on the list have a copy of this manual? > > Marc > > From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Nov 4 00:26:05 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2017 00:26:05 -0500 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA Message-ID: <59fd4f70.573fca0a.ed6ed.3248@mx.google.com> Lol that's indeed the one. I had no idea it was same era though. I think i was looking at one years ago as an option to document my collection and serial numbers. I realized despite the cool factor, i would be putting my faith in that system with no back-up and less ability to export elsewhere so never followed through with it. -------- Original message --------From: Fred Cisin via cctalk Date: 11/3/17 10:52 PM (GMT-06:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA On Fri, 3 Nov 2017, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote: > I could have sworn there was a newer black colored m100 type system that > someone was selling a bunch of on ebay. Iirc they were calling it the > tandy killer and i thougbt it was a "slate". Convergent Technologies "Workslate". sexy machine Far from a killer. Unless you are one who defines spreadsheet as "killing" word processor. Take a look at the Epson Geneva PX-8.? CP/M. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 4 02:15:52 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 07:15:52 -0000 Subject: Collections in Sydney Message-ID: <000501d3553c$bf9247f0$3eb6d7d0$@ntlworld.com> I will be visiting Sydney soon. I am interested to know if there are any collections or museums that may be open to a visit? I am already aware of ACMS and have sent them an email. Thanks Rob From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Sat Nov 4 04:43:26 2017 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (Archie Knowles) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 10:43:26 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?B?4piReWF5IGludGVyZXN0aW5nIHN0dWZmLCBqdXN0IHRha2UgYSBsb29r?= Message-ID: <16A546B7-097F-40EE-A0CF-077AB36BDA62@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Yo! I've seen that interesting stuff recently, you'll definitely love it. Just take a look http://www.saratov-les.ru/deficit.php?UE9jY3RhbGtAY2xhc3NpY2NtcC5vcmc- Archie Knowles From binarydinosaurs at icloud.com Fri Nov 3 18:47:23 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at icloud.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 23:47:23 +0000 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 3 Nov 2017, at 23:21, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > On 3 November 2017 at 22:53, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> Exactly! >> >> But, they sometimes try to convince us that it means "Personal Computer >> Memory Card Instustry Association", which is far less credible > > OK, next, for 2 points. What does TWAIN stand for? No conferring or > consulting research materials. > OK I?ll bite. Toolkit Without An Indicated Name. (my early noughties scanners proclaimed this proudly) > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From thebri at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 19:40:31 2017 From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 20:40:31 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/a wire-to-board connector for power? Message-ID: I'm assembling a PDP-8/a from a pile of parts, but I'm missing the entire AC power entry assembly, as shown in http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/8a_trans_gnd0.jpg. Does anyone know what the 6-pin connector is? Even better, does anyone have an extra assembly? Thanks to Herb Johnson for the 8/a repair write ups ( http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/8a_repairs.html) and pictures. Very helpful! bri From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 3 20:36:43 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:36:43 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/a wire-to-board connector for power? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4794a9ec-26a9-42ea-f5ce-3d72f8bbf900@sydex.com> On 11/03/2017 05:40 PM, Brian Walenz via cctech wrote: > I'm assembling a PDP-8/a from a pile of parts, but I'm missing the entire > AC power entry assembly, as shown in > http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/8a_trans_gnd0.jpg. Does anyone know > what the 6-pin connector is? Even better, does anyone have an extra > assembly? That connector is still being made! It's an AMP Mate-n-lock: http://www.te.com/usa-en/product-1-480270-0.html Well, okay, it's not "Amp" anymore, Amp's been eaten. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 3 20:51:29 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 20:51:29 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/a wire-to-board connector for power? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59FD1D21.8040903@pico-systems.com> On 11/03/2017 07:40 PM, Brian Walenz via cctech wrote: > I'm assembling a PDP-8/a from a pile of parts, but I'm missing the entire > AC power entry assembly, as shown in > http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/8a_trans_gnd0.jpg. Does anyone know > what the 6-pin connector is? Even better, does anyone have an extra > assembly? I'm pretty sure this is an AMP Mate-n-Lock connector. I think they are still made. DEC used a lot of them in various power supply/distribution areas. Jon From thebri at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 20:52:31 2017 From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 21:52:31 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/a wire-to-board connector for power? In-Reply-To: <4794a9ec-26a9-42ea-f5ce-3d72f8bbf900@sydex.com> References: <4794a9ec-26a9-42ea-f5ce-3d72f8bbf900@sydex.com> Message-ID: Awesome, thanks! I missed that in my scan of the Mouser catalog. https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/1-480270-0/ $0.86 for the connector, $160 for the crimper. b On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 9:36 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 11/03/2017 05:40 PM, Brian Walenz via cctech wrote: > > I'm assembling a PDP-8/a from a pile of parts, but I'm missing the entire > > AC power entry assembly, as shown in > > http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/8a_trans_gnd0.jpg. Does anyone > know > > what the 6-pin connector is? Even better, does anyone have an extra > > assembly? > > That connector is still being made! It's an AMP Mate-n-lock: > > http://www.te.com/usa-en/product-1-480270-0.html > > Well, okay, it's not "Amp" anymore, Amp's been eaten. > > --Chuck > > From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Nov 3 21:03:35 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 22:03:35 -0400 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <8d9fb735-cc8a-c313-4ce0-72c39eb76eb0@snarc.net> <05C40A081DA9422F95275B5810AA1042@310e2> Message-ID: <964b47d6-74c0-4f8b-82eb-191e0a44a5db@snarc.net> > But I didn't say *professional* writers still use M100s. I said "some > writers", and I think the folks who self-publish stories on the > Internet, enter writing contests, contribute to the various on-line > magazines etc. or just write for pleasure and entertainment of friends > and family are every bit as much 'writers' as your elite group of 'real > writers', and some of them do indeed prefer the M100 and its cousins to > their modern laptops and desktops for its unique features. Oh geez. Nobody said anything about "elite" just because it's my career. I'd be shocked if 1 in 10,000 writers today every HEARD of the Model 100, let alone use it. But if what you really mean is that you hang out with a bunch of old cranks, one or two of which call themselves writers and still use a Model 100, then I guess that's true. :) > As Bill Loguidice observed in a thread elsewhere about your opinionated > post, "...there really is no true modern equivalent to what the M100 > series can do", especially when equipped with?modern multi-MB RAM and > storage expansions, USB, WiFi and Bluetooth connectivity options, > multiple tools and programs instantly accessible from ROM etc., etc. Bill L. is a good friend of mine and I'd happily debate him on this. The answer is: Chromebook. Turn it on, boots just about instantly, runs on all day on a single charge, has an awesome offline text editor available, light as a feather, and starts around $200. I love mine. > A little before your time of course... ?? I'm in my 40s. From wilson at dbit.com Fri Nov 3 21:34:44 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 22:34:44 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/a wire-to-board connector for power? In-Reply-To: References: <4794a9ec-26a9-42ea-f5ce-3d72f8bbf900@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20171104023444.GA20255@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Nov 03, 2017 at 09:52:31PM -0400, Brian Walenz via cctech wrote: >Awesome, thanks! I missed that in my scan of the Mouser catalog. > >https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/1-480270-0/ > >$0.86 for the connector, $160 for the crimper. I have the crimper (for the cable on my FDDC boards). If you send me terminals and wires, I'll crimp them and send them back. Although, you can usually get away with needlenose pliers and a little solder if looks aren't important. John Wilson D Bit From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Nov 3 22:15:03 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 23:15:03 -0400 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <8d9fb735-cc8a-c313-4ce0-72c39eb76eb0@snarc.net> <05C40A081DA9422F95275B5810AA1042@310e2> <964b47d6-74c0-4f8b-82eb-191e0a44a5db@snarc.net> Message-ID: > I guess you'd also just dismiss Harlan Ellison, Woody Allen, Isaac Asimov and the dozens of other writers who prefer to use a typewriter over a modern computer as "old cranks"... They used typewriters in the 1980s, maybe some into the 1990s, when typewriters were still common. You're talking about the Model 100 which is now a 34-year-old computer. Big difference. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 3 23:00:54 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 23:00:54 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/a wire-to-board connector for power? In-Reply-To: References: <4794a9ec-26a9-42ea-f5ce-3d72f8bbf900@sydex.com> Message-ID: <59FD3B76.1070204@pico-systems.com> On 11/03/2017 08:52 PM, Brian Walenz via cctech wrote: > Awesome, thanks! I missed that in my scan of the Mouser catalog. > > https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/1-480270-0/ > > $0.86 for the connector, $160 for the crimper. > > You should be able to use Molex crimping tools with these contacts with a little care. The contacts are quite similar. You can even use needle nose pliers, but you will end up mashing more than you crimp properly. Then, you will need to solder them to get a good connection. Jon From lproven at gmail.com Sat Nov 4 07:54:20 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 13:54:20 +0100 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 November 2017 at 00:47, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > OK I?ll bite. Toolkit Without An Indicated Name. > > (my early noughties scanners proclaimed this proudly) Close, but not quite. 3/5. :-D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 4 08:25:22 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 13:25:22 -0000 Subject: H7826 PSU Transformer Failure? Message-ID: <000301d35570$5e7ced60$1b76c820$@ntlworld.com> I tried out the H7826 PSU that came with my TURBOchannel Extender after cleaning up the board and replacing a number of the electrolytic capacitors. Naturally, it doesn't work :( Having traced the signals, I can see an alternating voltage going from the inverter into the transformer on the primary side, but on the secondary side I see no signal whatever on any of the output windings (I am not sure how many there are, but I think at least two). Before I take out the transformer, is there anything other than a failure of the transformer that could cause such a problem? Thanks Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 4 10:44:21 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 08:44:21 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_=e2=98=91yay_interesting_stuff=2c_just_take_a_look?= In-Reply-To: <16A546B7-097F-40EE-A0CF-077AB36BDA62@stephenmerrony.co.uk> References: <16A546B7-097F-40EE-A0CF-077AB36BDA62@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: On 11/04/2017 02:43 AM, Archie Knowles via cctalk wrote: > Yo! > > I've seen that interesting stuff recently, you'll definitely love it. Just take a look http://www.saratov-les.ru/deficit.php?UE9jY3RhbGtAY2xhc3NpY2NtcC5vcmc- > > Archie Knowles Don't click the link folks--my browser identifies this as a malware site. --Chuck From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Nov 4 10:47:24 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 11:47:24 -0400 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA References: <6d5a6518-6246-7818-a5ea-0981daff3bd6@gmail.com> <769CCA4A7F8F41B3B206A603DA9E710D@310e2> <8d9fb735-cc8a-c313-4ce0-72c39eb76eb0@snarc.net> <05C40A081DA9422F95275B5810AA1042@310e2> <964b47d6-74c0-4f8b-82eb-191e0a44a5db@snarc.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 11:15 PM Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA >> I guess you'd also just dismiss Harlan Ellison, Woody Allen, Isaac Asimov and the dozens of other writers who prefer to use a typewriter over a modern computer as "old cranks"... > > They used typewriters in the 1980s, maybe some into the 1990s, when > typewriters were still common. You're talking about the Model 100 which > is now a 34-year-old computer. Big difference. ------ It's actually one of a group of fairly unique 34-year-old and newer tablet computers that can be and often are updated to remedy most of the deficiencies of the original version while retaining the simplicity and other features that make it popular among some people. How many modern computers have a full size regular keyboard in a tablet format with a display that's clearly legible in bright sunlight, instant on, cheap batteries that last for days and can be replaced in seconds, etc. ? Your point was that no 'real writer' in his/her right mind would use anything older than a last-gen laptop today; the reason Asimov et al are often mentioned in this context is precisely because they preferred to use typewriters when much more efficient technology was readily available. I think that some creative writers value simplicity above all, with a minimum of distracting technology between the idea and recording it; reporters and journalists like yourself on the other hand have somewhat different needs such as instant access to research, powerful formatting tools, compatibility, communication and fast file transfer, etc. etc. The bottom line is that members of both groups use what they believe is most effective for whatever they're doing and, whether you believe it or not, not all writers then and now need or want the latest technology; I find your suggestion that anyone who uses old technology like the M100 can not call themselves a 'real writer' like you somewhat insulting and elitist. I suspect that you've been trolling anyway, so can we leave it at that? m From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Mon Nov 6 03:36:56 2017 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (Walter Irizarry) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 12:36:56 +0300 Subject: =?utf-8?B?4piAeWFob28gYXN0b25pc2hpbmch?= Message-ID: <0010346e826e$26a73b88$7a74633d$@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Hey friend, This is merely something really amazing, I'm telling you, you have to take a look http://www.n5xmotorsport.com/store.php?UE9jY3RhbGtAY2xhc3NpY2NtcC5vcmc- Walter Irizarry From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 6 10:53:46 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:53:46 -0800 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_=e2=98=80yahoo_astonishing!_=28SPAM=29?= In-Reply-To: <0010346e826e$26a73b88$7a74633d$@stephenmerrony.co.uk> References: <0010346e826e$26a73b88$7a74633d$@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: On 11/06/2017 01:36 AM, Walter Irizarry via cctalk wrote: > Hey friend, > > This is merely something really amazing, I'm telling you, you have to take a look http://www.n5xmotorsport.com/store.php?UE9jY3RhbGtAY2xhc3NpY2NtcC5vcmc- > > > Walter Irizarry It's spam, ignore it. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 6 11:09:38 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 12:09:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-8 chassis on eBay Message-ID: <20171106170938.86CDD18C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So if someone's building an earlier -8 from bits and pieces, here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/192350321318 is something they might find useful - an empty chassis. (I'm not associated with the seller, although I've bought stuff from them before. They have some other PDP-8 stuff listed, too.) Noel From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 6 11:18:53 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 09:18:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_=E2=98=80yahoo_astonishing!?= In-Reply-To: <0010346e826e$26a73b88$7a74633d$@stephenmerrony.co.uk> References: <0010346e826e$26a73b88$7a74633d$@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2017, Walter Irizarry via cctalk wrote: > Hey friend, > > This is merely something really amazing, I'm telling you, you have to > take a look > http://www.spaaaaaaaaaaam No spammer, I don't. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 5 11:14:05 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 17:14:05 -0000 Subject: H7826 PSU, No Signal On Transformer Outputs Message-ID: <00a701d35659$7daacce0$790066a0$@ntlworld.com> I have moved on with the work on the H7826 PSU in the TURBOchannel Extender. However I have found that there appears to be no signal at all on the output windings of the transformer. I have posted all the details of what I have been doing here http://robs-old-computers.com/2017/11/05/repair-progress-on-the-h7826-power- supply/, and I would welcome any suggestions as to what might cause this? Thanks Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Nov 5 08:04:48 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 09:04:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-8 chassis on eBay Message-ID: <20171105140448.E025118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So if someone's building an earlier -8 from bits and pieces, here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/192350321318 is something they might find useful - an empty chassis. (I'm not associated with the seller, although I've bought stuff from them before. They have some other PDP-8 stuff listed, too.) Noel From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Nov 5 01:46:59 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 23:46:59 -0700 Subject: "Left a home full of computers" Craigslist ad Message-ID: I don't know anything but the ad copy the poster placed. I'd think there might be more to the story if someone is in Southern New Hampshire and can contact and perhaps visit.? Londonderry, north west from Lawrence, Lowell, Ma. https://nh.craigslist.org/sop/d/teletype-printer/6369045622.html "Antique teletype for sale it has been indoors with other computers that are 20plus yrs old , Also have a new Radio Shack TRS80 ,with all the software and hardware ,printers,disc drives all like new , I was left a home with all of its contents tons of electronics and computers, call if you want me to send pics" From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Sun Nov 5 10:49:16 2017 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 17:49:16 +0100 Subject: Tek4052 V5 ROMdumps available Message-ID: <21c6482d-8c85-3207-a876-345721d0e3f7@greenmail.ch> For the upcoming VCFe in Zurich / Switzerland (18/19 Nov ) I repaired my TEK4052, which is now up and running ( no usable tapes yet...) I took the opportunity to read all the programmable devices from the machine, you find these at ftp.dreesen.ch/ftp/TEK4052 They are release V5 for the ALU-(microcode), and release V5.1 for the MAS-(firmware) board. They do not use patch-pla's, I believe them to be the latest revision for the 4052. These are for the 4052, not the 4052A which is a different beast. (differnt IO and MAS board, different microcode and firmware ) As a reference, the romdump's at Al's site are for the 4052A, the romdumps at the Stuttgart museum site are the earlier release V4.x for the 4052 Take note : a 4052 does not boot without the tapedrive attached... I also dumped the contents of both 2716's onboard the diagnostic rom pack. ( also containg a 6810 ) I have (untested) spare boards if anyone in the neighboorhood wants to try some boardswapping... Jos From pete at pski.net Mon Nov 6 11:42:03 2017 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 12:42:03 -0500 Subject: "Left a home full of computers" Craigslist ad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C006415-AB53-4102-9B21-E66E06826A3C@pski.net> > On Nov 5, 2017, at 1:46 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > I don't know anything but the ad copy the poster placed. > > I'd think there might be more to the story if someone is in Southern New Hampshire and can contact and perhaps visit. Londonderry, north west from Lawrence, Lowell, Ma. > > https://nh.craigslist.org/sop/d/teletype-printer/6369045622.html > > "Antique teletype for sale it has been indoors with other computers that are 20plus yrs old , Also have a new Radio Shack TRS80 ,with all the software and hardware ,printers,disc drives all like new , I was left a home with all of its contents tons of electronics and computers, call if you want me to send pics" FWIW, I received some pics of these items. The TRS-80 is far from being in new condition. It?s quite a bit beat up and worn. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Nov 6 11:59:05 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 12:59:05 -0500 Subject: "Left a home full of computers" Craigslist ad Message-ID: <92903.3cb1982f.4731fce9@aol.com> YEA BUT THAT ASR 35 IS WORTH GOING AFTER IF YOU ARE CLOSE! ED# In a message dated 11/6/2017 10:43:32 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > On Nov 5, 2017, at 1:46 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > I don't know anything but the ad copy the poster placed. > > I'd think there might be more to the story if someone is in Southern New Hampshire and can contact and perhaps visit. Londonderry, north west from Lawrence, Lowell, Ma. > > https://nh.craigslist.org/sop/d/teletype-printer/6369045622.html > > "Antique teletype for sale it has been indoors with other computers that are 20plus yrs old , Also have a new Radio Shack TRS80 ,with all the software and hardware ,printers,disc drives all like new , I was left a home with all of its contents tons of electronics and computers, call if you want me to send pics" FWIW, I received some pics of these items. The TRS-80 is far from being in new condition. It?s quite a bit beat up and worn.= From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sun Nov 5 11:43:46 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2017 17:43:46 +0000 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails Message-ID: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Hi everyone, I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the fault light turned off. So that's positive. I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light returns. I made a short video demonstrating this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following reasons: - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start? - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start. - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far - Write data error... Same as above - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault? So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is slipping or something like that? Can anyone offer some advice? Thanks, Aaron. From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Nov 5 11:46:18 2017 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 09:46:18 -0800 Subject: List Problems? Message-ID: <7F969946-678E-4DCC-911D-6B2EB4C10145@avanthar.com> I know around the 20th I wasn?t the only one having problems. Are there still issues? Oddly enough, once I got access back to my Aracnet email address, and even though it has problems receiving email, it?s getting classiccmp just fine. Which a surprise, considering I didn?t think my Aracnet account existed for much of that time. OTOH, I?ve not received any from classiccmp at this address since the 20th. I seem to be having problems logging into the website to check my preferences, and can?t even get it to send me a password. It will be interesting to see if this makes it through. Zane From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 12:19:45 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 18:19:45 +0000 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 5:43 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave > Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I > tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into > board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the > fault light turned off. So that's positive. > > I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and > generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I > could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light > returns. I made a short video demonstrating this: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U > > According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following > reasons: > > - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start? > - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first > - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above > - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start. > - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far > - Write data error... Same as above > - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault? > > So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is > slipping or something like that? > > Can anyone offer some advice? It's been some time since I worked on one of these and I don't have the printset to hand, but from what I remember the fault indicator circuit is triggered by a (logically) many-input OR gate. Probably a NAND in practice, which is why I said 'logically'. The inputs to said gate come from the circuits that detect various faults. What I do is to look at each of those inputs in turn and see what is triggering the fault indicator. Then work back from there. -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 12:19:45 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 18:19:45 +0000 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 5:43 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave > Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I > tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into > board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the > fault light turned off. So that's positive. > > I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and > generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I > could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light > returns. I made a short video demonstrating this: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U > > According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following > reasons: > > - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start? > - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first > - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above > - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start. > - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far > - Write data error... Same as above > - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault? > > So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is > slipping or something like that? > > Can anyone offer some advice? It's been some time since I worked on one of these and I don't have the printset to hand, but from what I remember the fault indicator circuit is triggered by a (logically) many-input OR gate. Probably a NAND in practice, which is why I said 'logically'. The inputs to said gate come from the circuits that detect various faults. What I do is to look at each of those inputs in turn and see what is triggering the fault indicator. Then work back from there. -tony From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Mon Nov 6 12:21:53 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 18:21:53 +0000 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <878tfj469q.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> This can probably be ignored. I since realised it's almost definitely an issue with my terminator. Although, it doesn't matter how many times I build a terminator, it won't work. I based my terminator off Mark Blair's RL02 to USB project: https://github.com/NF6X/RL02-USB/blob/master/pcbs/RL02-USB-terminator/RL02-USB-terminator.pdf Aaron. Aaron Jackson via cctalk writes: > Hi everyone, > > I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave > Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I > tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into > board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the > fault light turned off. So that's positive. > > I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and > generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I > could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light > returns. I made a short video demonstrating this: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U > > According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following > reasons: > > - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start? > - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first > - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above > - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start. > - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far > - Write data error... Same as above > - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault? > > So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is > slipping or something like that? > > Can anyone offer some advice? > > Thanks, > > Aaron. -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Mon Nov 6 12:21:53 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 18:21:53 +0000 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <878tfj469q.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> This can probably be ignored. I since realised it's almost definitely an issue with my terminator. Although, it doesn't matter how many times I build a terminator, it won't work. I based my terminator off Mark Blair's RL02 to USB project: https://github.com/NF6X/RL02-USB/blob/master/pcbs/RL02-USB-terminator/RL02-USB-terminator.pdf Aaron. Aaron Jackson via cctalk writes: > Hi everyone, > > I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave > Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I > tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into > board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the > fault light turned off. So that's positive. > > I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and > generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I > could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light > returns. I made a short video demonstrating this: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U > > According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following > reasons: > > - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start? > - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first > - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above > - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start. > - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far > - Write data error... Same as above > - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault? > > So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is > slipping or something like that? > > Can anyone offer some advice? > > Thanks, > > Aaron. -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Mon Nov 6 12:26:38 2017 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 18:26:38 +0000 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA Message-ID: >From: Fred Cisin >Is there a reason to AVOID mentioning the Poqet? Yes... >The original MSRP at announcement was WAY too high, and priced it out >of the market, but the actual/street price wasn't bad. >Larger keyboard that the HP (which was otherwise a better deal for the price) True, but the HP keyborad is not that bad. >AA batteries with long life. Yep. HP LX is the same. >two PCMCIA slots (before PCMCIA was officially named and standardized) But they are pre-PCMCIA 1, so do not handle a full range of card types, such as CF. >Bus connector, with a few unobtanium accessories, such as 3.5" drive. If you want, I can send you a mask image that I made many years ago for a serial connector for the bus port that you can etch. > Had LOTUS available as a ROM card! The HP LX has Lotus 1-2-3 in ROM. >MS-DOS 5.00 - I learned how to write TSRs on one. Same for the HP LX. The main reason, apart from the non-standard PC Card slots, not to get one (and I have three -- one working and two non-working) is that the video cable tends to break where it flexes at the case hinge and it is next to impossible to repair it. Bob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 6 12:49:56 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 13:49:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: "Left a home full of computers" Craigslist ad Message-ID: <20171106184956.8816E18C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Peter Cetinski >> I was left a home with all of its contents tons of electronics and >> computers, call if you want me to send pics > FWIW, I received some pics of these items. So, what else was there (that you don't mind telling us about because you're not grabbing them... :-)? Noel From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Nov 6 13:44:10 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 11:44:10 -0800 Subject: H7826 PSU, No Signal On Transformer Outputs In-Reply-To: <00a701d35659$7daacce0$790066a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00a701d35659$7daacce0$790066a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <7B5AB219-1D4B-432B-8C2D-E46848FC9E26@shaw.ca> On 2017-Nov-05, at 9:14 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I have moved on with the work on the H7826 PSU in the TURBOchannel Extender. > However I have found that there appears to be no signal at all on the output > windings of the transformer. I have posted all the details of what I have > been doing here > http://robs-old-computers.com/2017/11/05/repair-progress-on-the-h7826-power- > supply/, and I would welcome any suggestions as to what might cause this? "I then checked the primary side of the transformer and I could see a signal." You don't describe the nature of the signal, but regardless, seeing a voltage signal at some point on the primary is not a guarantee that current is flowing through the primary, current being necessary for induction and getting anything out of the secondaries. It depends on the primary side driver arrangement, (going by the H7861 schematic DEC used some funky arrangements, is the 7826 schematic available?), For example you might see a voltage signal from the high-side driver, but the low-side driver could be faulty. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 6 14:14:18 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 20:14:18 -0000 Subject: H7826 PSU, No Signal On Transformer Outputs In-Reply-To: <7B5AB219-1D4B-432B-8C2D-E46848FC9E26@shaw.ca> References: <00a701d35659$7daacce0$790066a0$@ntlworld.com> <7B5AB219-1D4B-432B-8C2D-E46848FC9E26@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <015801d3573b$d3ef03e0$7bcd0ba0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent > Hilpert via cctalk > Sent: 06 November 2017 19:44 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: H7826 PSU, No Signal On Transformer Outputs > > On 2017-Nov-05, at 9:14 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I have moved on with the work on the H7826 PSU in the TURBOchannel > Extender. > > However I have found that there appears to be no signal at all on the > > output windings of the transformer. I have posted all the details of > > what I have been doing here > > http://robs-old-computers.com/2017/11/05/repair-progress-on-the-h7826- > > power- supply/, and I would welcome any suggestions as to what might > > cause this? > > "I then checked the primary side of the transformer and I could see a signal." > > > You don't describe the nature of the signal, but regardless, seeing a voltage > signal at some point on the primary is not a guarantee that current is flowing > through the primary, current being necessary for induction and getting > anything out of the secondaries. > I saw alternating signals on a number of the inputs to the transformer, but I didn't note which pins at the time :-( Surely all you need is an alternating voltage to produce an output on the secondary side? > It depends on the primary side driver arrangement, (going by the H7861 > schematic DEC used some funky arrangements, is the 7826 schematic > available?), For example you might see a voltage signal from the high-side > driver, but the low-side driver could be faulty.= I have not looked for a schematic, but I severely doubt there is one, in this case the markings on the board don't even have component labels! I could try to trace it out, but it is quite difficult with this board. Regards Rob From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Nov 6 14:41:10 2017 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 20:41:10 +0000 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: Van: Aaron Jackson via cctalk Verzonden: maandag 6 november 2017 19:15 Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: RL02 Spinup fails Hi everyone, I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the fault light turned off. So that's positive. I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light returns. I made a short video demonstrating this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following reasons: - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start? - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start. - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far - Write data error... Same as above - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault? So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is slipping or something like that? Can anyone offer some advice? Thanks, Aaron. I saw the video. It seems that the motor runs and the disk spins up. As Tony suggests, check the possible fault sources. One obvious fault: is the head still locked? That?s the small metal plate fixed with one screw in the top right corner (IIRC). Long ago, I tried to run RK07 drives of the RK611 controller using a flat cable (not shielded), length 1 meter. The XXDP diags gave all sorts of errors that went away after I found the correct (shielded) cable BCxx. You are correct, the fault light will go on immediately when the drive is no connected to the controller. I *think* READY should come up even when no terminator is installed. One other possible fault. Are you sure the RL02 disk pack is OK? If it has been wiped with a magnet, it has become useless as a disk pack, but maybe useful for a ?wall clock platter?. READY will never light up, and possibly there is a time out. Not sure you can *hear* the head (carriage) move though ? From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 12:55:36 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 13:55:36 -0500 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave > Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I > tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into > board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the > fault light turned off. So that's positive. > > I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and > generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I > could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light > returns. I made a short video demonstrating this: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U > > According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following > reasons: > > - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start? > - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first > - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above > - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start. > - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far > - Write data error... Same as above > - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault? > > So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is > slipping or something like that? > > Can anyone offer some advice? > > Thanks, > > Aaron. > At that point, for the time it takes the drive to be ready from a load should be about 15 seconds. For you the Fault light comes on instead. If I turn on my drives but leave the computer (11/40) off, the fault light comes on immediately. If I then turn on the computer the fault light will turn off, although I may have to press load first and if so it will turn off after a few seconds. It's independent of the LOAD/READY lights based on this informal comparison I'd venture you have a drive issue. I am not 100% sure what your termination situation is. I have two drives, one terminated but it's with a DEC terminator on the bottom port of drive 1. The cable comes from the computer into drive 0. I have a cable going from drive 0 port 1 to drive 1 port 1. Bill From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Mon Nov 6 13:07:57 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 19:07:57 +0000 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <877ev3444y.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> william degnan writes: > On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave >> Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I >> tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into >> board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the >> fault light turned off. So that's positive. >> >> I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and >> generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I >> could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light >> returns. I made a short video demonstrating this: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U >> >> According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following >> reasons: >> >> - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start? >> - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first >> - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above >> - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start. >> - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far >> - Write data error... Same as above >> - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault? >> >> So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is >> slipping or something like that? >> >> Can anyone offer some advice? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Aaron. >> > > > At that point, for the time it takes the drive to be ready from a load > should be about 15 seconds. For you the Fault light comes on instead. > If I turn on my drives but leave the computer (11/40) off, the fault light > comes on immediately. If I then turn on the computer the fault light will > turn off, although I may have to press load first and if so it will turn > off after a few seconds. It's independent of the LOAD/READY lights > > based on this informal comparison I'd venture you have a drive issue. I am > not 100% sure what your termination situation is. I have two drives, one > terminated but it's with a DEC terminator on the bottom port of drive 1. > The cable comes from the computer into drive 0. I have a cable going from > drive 0 port 1 to drive 1 port 1. > > Bill The only thing I can think of with the terminator is that by using the bulkhead connectors on the back you would end up with something like this: |--- logic board pdp11 rl02 | --------------------[]--+ | terminator ---| but I built my terminator directly onto the end of a ribbon cable, and I realised that it is actually slightly different. More like this: pdp11 ----------------------------+---------+ | | logic terminator board I wouldn't thought it would matter but maybe timing is very sensitive. I can imagine something like this causing an issue with 10base2 networking for example. Thanks for the information. Aaron. From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 17:28:41 2017 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 10:28:41 +1100 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <6196D762-162F-4177-AB3B-CCE2E383F96D@gmail.com> I?m more used to working on HP drives of this type but it sounds to me like you are getting a seek Time Out. It sounds like the motor spins up to speed and the head load is being initiated. there should be a carriage unlock (I assume there?s a lock solenoid) and the carriage should start to move. If the drive doesn?t sense movement of the carriage away from the home position after a certain time (is there a carriage home optical sensor or micro switch to detect carriage home?) it could give a seek error, even before it gets near the disc. It could be that locking plate Henk mentioned , the lock solenoid not pulling in, or a problem with power getting to the actuator to drive the heads out. That?s how an HP drive does it anyway. David Collins Sent from my iPad > On 7 Nov 2017, at 7:41 am, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > > > > Van: Aaron Jackson via cctalk > Verzonden: maandag 6 november 2017 19:15 > Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: RL02 Spinup fails > > Hi everyone, > > I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave > Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I > tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into > board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the > fault light turned off. So that's positive. > > I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and > generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I > could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light > returns. I made a short video demonstrating this: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U > > According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following > reasons: > > - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start? > - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first > - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above > - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start. > - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far > - Write data error... Same as above > - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault? > > So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is > slipping or something like that? > > Can anyone offer some advice? > > Thanks, > > Aaron. > > I saw the video. > It seems that the motor runs and the disk spins up. > As Tony suggests, check the possible fault sources. > One obvious fault: is the head still locked? That?s the small > metal plate fixed with one screw in the top right corner (IIRC). > > Long ago, I tried to run RK07 drives of the RK611 controller > using a flat cable (not shielded), length 1 meter. The XXDP diags > gave all sorts of errors that went away after I found the correct > (shielded) cable BCxx. > > You are correct, the fault light will go on immediately when the > drive is no connected to the controller. I *think* READY should > come up even when no terminator is installed. > > One other possible fault. Are you sure the RL02 disk pack is OK? > If it has been wiped with a magnet, it has become useless as a > disk pack, but maybe useful for a ?wall clock platter?. READY will > never light up, and possibly there is a time out. > Not sure you can *hear* the head (carriage) move though ? > > From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 22:52:02 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 20:52:02 -0800 Subject: HP 9836U processor mystery... Message-ID: Hi all -- I mentioned a few weeks back that I picked up an HP 9836CU workstation.? The "U" variant differs from the normal 9836 in that it contains an upgraded CPU board that allows it to run early versions of HP-UX.? (The "C" indicates that this machine has a color display, which is also cool but not what I want to talk about here today.) Information on the Internet varies about what microprocessor the 9836U actually contains -- some sources say it's a 12Mhz 68010, some say it's a 12Mhz 68000.? I found some internal HP marketing text that corroborates the straight-68000 story.? I'd link it here, but hpmuseum.net appears to be having technical issues at the moment. My 9836CU has the 12Mhz 68000 (HP internal part number 1820-3288) fitted in a socket on an 09836-66511 board (with the expected 16K SRAM cache and MMU logic) and the processor is identified at power-up as a 68000. Just for fun, I swapped the processor with a PGA 68010 and it powers up and runs just fine, and identifies the processor as a 68010.? (Still won't boot the copy of HP-UX 5.0 on the hpmuseum site, though...) I'm curious if other people out there with 9836U's can confirm whether their machine has a 68000 or a 68010 in it, I'd just like to settle the internet discrepancy once and for all :). - Josh From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 22:56:10 2017 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 15:56:10 +1100 Subject: HP 9836U processor mystery... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The hpmuseum.net is indeed having technical issues at the moment. The after effects of an Opsys upgrade to the web server it seems. Service will be restored as soon as possible! David Collins > On 7 Nov 2017, at 3:52 pm, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all -- > > I mentioned a few weeks back that I picked up an HP 9836CU workstation. The "U" variant differs from the normal 9836 in that it contains an upgraded CPU board that allows it to run early versions of HP-UX. (The "C" indicates that this machine has a color display, which is also cool but not what I want to talk about here today.) > > Information on the Internet varies about what microprocessor the 9836U actually contains -- some sources say it's a 12Mhz 68010, some say it's a 12Mhz 68000. I found some internal HP marketing text that corroborates the straight-68000 story. I'd link it here, but hpmuseum.net appears to be having technical issues at the moment. > > My 9836CU has the 12Mhz 68000 (HP internal part number 1820-3288) fitted in a socket on an 09836-66511 board (with the expected 16K SRAM cache and MMU logic) and the processor is identified at power-up as a 68000. > > Just for fun, I swapped the processor with a PGA 68010 and it powers up and runs just fine, and identifies the processor as a 68010. (Still won't boot the copy of HP-UX 5.0 on the hpmuseum site, though...) > > I'm curious if other people out there with 9836U's can confirm whether their machine has a 68000 or a 68010 in it, I'd just like to settle the internet discrepancy once and for all :). > > - Josh > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 22:59:15 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 04:59:15 +0000 Subject: HP 9836U processor mystery... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 4:52 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > I'm curious if other people out there with 9836U's can confirm whether their > machine has a 68000 or a 68010 in it, I'd just like to settle the internet > discrepancy once and for all :). Mine identifies the CPU as a 68010 in the power-on diagnostic. But from what I remember the PGA socket could also take a 68012 (with extra address pins brought out). I don't have such a chip, so no idea what it would identify as. -tony From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 7 00:39:47 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 23:39:47 -0700 Subject: HP 9836U processor mystery... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > Mine identifies the CPU as a 68010 in the power-on diagnostic. But from > what > I remember the PGA socket could also take a 68012 (with extra address pins > brought out). I don't have such a chip, so no idea what it would identify > as. > Do you mean that it will actually use the extra address pins? I suppose the most likely way for the software to identify the MC68012 (vs MC68010) would be to try accessing two memory addresses differing only in address bits A24 or higher (but not A30), and test whether whatever MMU hardware they've built will actually map them distinctly. The other difference in the MC68012 is the availability of a /RMC pin to better identify read-modify-write cycles, but since their board has to work with an MC68010, I doubt that it would use the /RMC signal at all. I've heard claims that HP used the MC68012 in some systems, but I've never seen any definite confirmation. From sales at elecplus.com Tue Nov 7 01:22:24 2017 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 01:22:24 -0600 Subject: Sun part available, new old stock Message-ID: <092201d35799$2916a8c0$7b43fa40$@com> I have no idea if these are old enough to be useful. Not affiliated with seller, etc. WTS Sun MODULES, NEW, qty 300, CALL, New Surplus Sun Accessories and Modules We have quantities of the following Sun part numbers. All stock is new/surplus. SUN 594-3394-01 SUN X4444A SUN SG-XPCIE1FC-QF4 SUN QLE2460-SUN-X0 SUN X6920A SUN X7282A-Z SUN X4422A-2 SUN X4447A-Z SUN X4445A SUN 375-3418-01 SUN X4213A SUN X5043A-Z SUN 375-3382-01 Contact us at sales01 at assetlc.com for additional details. Thank you. Asset Life Cycle, LLC Phone: (785) 861-3100 Fax: (785) 861-3193 sales01 at assetlc.com Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 7 02:01:52 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 00:01:52 -0800 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: <878tfj469q.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <878tfj469q.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <02E9D3EC-74F0-44F6-AF9E-49426165A137@nf6x.net> > On Nov 6, 2017, at 10:21, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > I based my terminator off Mark > Blair's RL02 to USB project: > > https://github.com/NF6X/RL02-USB/blob/master/pcbs/RL02-USB-terminator/RL02-USB-terminator.pdf Hi there! Just one warning: My project stalled after I ordered boards and lost inertia while waiting for them, and I have not yet put together the hardware. Thus, I can?t guarantee that my terminator design is correct yet. I?m glad that it has been deemed to be potentially useful even in its unfinished state, and I sure hope that I haven?t led anybody down the wrong path due to any errors that may be in the design. Good luck! From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Nov 7 02:11:43 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 00:11:43 -0800 Subject: Sun part available, new old stock In-Reply-To: <092201d35799$2916a8c0$7b43fa40$@com> References: <092201d35799$2916a8c0$7b43fa40$@com> Message-ID: FWIW, this is a lot of Pci dual and quad ethernet nics, a mounting kit and a couple of fiber channel adapters. done by googling each number, no further investigation. I think there was on sbus nic Nice if you need it. thanks for passing along thanks jim On 11/6/2017 11:22 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > I have no idea if these are old enough to be useful. Not affiliated with > seller, etc. > > > > WTS Sun MODULES, NEW, qty 300, CALL, New Surplus Sun Accessories and Modules > We have quantities of the following Sun part numbers. All stock is > new/surplus. > > > > SUN 594-3394-01 > > > > SUN X4444A > > > > SUN SG-XPCIE1FC-QF4 > > > > SUN QLE2460-SUN-X0 > > > > SUN X6920A > > > > SUN X7282A-Z > > > > SUN X4422A-2 > > > > SUN X4447A-Z > > > > SUN X4445A > > > > SUN 375-3418-01 > > > > SUN X4213A > > > > SUN X5043A-Z > > > > SUN 375-3382-01 > > > > Contact us at sales01 at assetlc.com for additional details. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Asset Life Cycle, LLC > > Phone: (785) 861-3100 > > Fax: (785) 861-3193 > > sales01 at assetlc.com > > > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Tue Nov 7 03:14:02 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2017 09:14:02 +0000 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: <02E9D3EC-74F0-44F6-AF9E-49426165A137@nf6x.net> References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <878tfj469q.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <02E9D3EC-74F0-44F6-AF9E-49426165A137@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <874lq64fj9.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> >> On Nov 6, 2017, at 10:21, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> >> I based my terminator off Mark >> Blair's RL02 to USB project: >> >> https://github.com/NF6X/RL02-USB/blob/master/pcbs/RL02-USB-terminator/RL02-USB-terminator.pdf > > Hi there! Just one warning: My project stalled after I ordered boards and lost inertia while waiting for them, and I have not yet put together the hardware. Thus, I can?t guarantee that my terminator design is correct yet. I?m glad that it has been deemed to be potentially useful even in its unfinished state, and I sure hope that I haven?t led anybody down the wrong path due to any errors that may be in the design. Good luck! Hi Mark, Thanks for your words of caution. :) I think it is correct thought. I found this old post on classiccmp which seems to agree with your design, although the pins might be reversed. I've tried it both ways... https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=104966057301826&w=2 Thanks, Aaron. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Nov 7 03:34:37 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 09:34:37 +0000 Subject: HP 9836U processor mystery... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 6:39 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Mine identifies the CPU as a 68010 in the power-on diagnostic. But from >> what >> I remember the PGA socket could also take a 68012 (with extra address pins >> brought out). I don't have such a chip, so no idea what it would identify >> as. > > > Do you mean that it will actually use the extra address pins? Well, theyare certainly wired to the MMU circuitry. I have no idea if any software makes use of it though. -tony From cube1 at charter.net Tue Nov 7 07:40:33 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 07:40:33 -0600 Subject: RK06 dirve In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ba300a9-91e6-23b2-9065-d35949b46445@charter.net> On 11/1/2017 11:03 PM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone out there have an DEC RK06 drive? > Bill > I have neither a drive nor packs. However, I did disassemble a couple of RK06 drives many years ago, and have a smattering of parts and boards, a couple of backplanes, spindles, power supply parts, etc. JRJ From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 7 09:00:41 2017 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 15:00:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: PDP-8 chassis on eBay In-Reply-To: <20171105140448.E025118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171105140448.E025118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1017381870.3764053.1510066841145@mail.yahoo.com> Can you tell which PDP8 this goes with?? Would an 8/e panel fit? Dave On Monday, November 6, 2017 11:26 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: So if someone's building an earlier -8 from bits and pieces, here: ? https://www.ebay.com/itm/192350321318 is something they might find useful - an empty chassis. (I'm not associated with the seller, although I've bought stuff from them before. They have some other PDP-8 stuff listed, too.) ??? Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 7 09:09:03 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 10:09:03 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 chassis on eBay In-Reply-To: <1017381870.3764053.1510066841145@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20171105140448.E025118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1017381870.3764053.1510066841145@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The seller in the past sold an 8i I believe, it's probably an 8i. Bill On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Dave via cctalk wrote: > Can you tell which PDP8 this goes with? Would an 8/e panel fit? > Dave > > On Monday, November 6, 2017 11:26 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > So if someone's building an earlier -8 from bits and pieces, here: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/192350321318 > > is something they might find useful - an empty chassis. > > (I'm not associated with the seller, although I've bought stuff from them > before. They have some other PDP-8 stuff listed, too.) > > Noel > > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 7 09:47:59 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 10:47:59 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 chassis on eBay In-Reply-To: <1017381870.3764053.1510066841145@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20171105140448.E025118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1017381870.3764053.1510066841145@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Dave via cctalk wrote: > Can you tell which PDP8 this goes with? Would an 8/e panel fit? Looks like a long Omnibus chassis, so -8/e or -8/f. Yes. An 8/e/f/m bezel and panel should fit. It shouldn't be horribly hard to find a bare Omnibus backplane block. The original PSU might be a bit tougher, but except for classic purity, there's nothing wrong with coming up with a modern PSU for it. Not sure why there's a 10A fuse for -15V. I totally believe the 1.5A for +15V, but I don't know what peripherals draw that much current at -15V, unless it's part of the core memory requirements. M-series logic is mostly TTL and mostly +5V. If you were going to fit a modernish unit in there, like some flavor of 6120 board, you'd probably have to roll your own front panel. The Spare Time Gizmos products are all 2:3 scale. -ethan From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Nov 7 11:20:50 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 17:20:50 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 chassis on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20171105140448.E025118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1017381870.3764053.1510066841145@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > Yes. An 8/e/f/m bezel and panel should fit. It shouldn't be horribly > hard to find a bare Omnibus backplane block. The original PSU might > be a bit tougher, but except for classic purity, there's nothing > wrong with coming up with a modern PSU for it. Not sure why there's a > 10A fuse for -15V. I totally believe the 1.5A for +15V, but I don't > know what peripherals draw that much current at -15V, unless it's part > of the core memory requirements. M-series logic is mostly TTL and > mostly +5V. I don't know how much current it needs, but a quick check in the PDP8/e printset shows that that the core memory does use the -15V supply rail. -tony From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Nov 7 12:25:40 2017 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 19:25:40 +0100 Subject: List Problems? In-Reply-To: <7F969946-678E-4DCC-911D-6B2EB4C10145@avanthar.com> References: <7F969946-678E-4DCC-911D-6B2EB4C10145@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <20171107182540.GA28449@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sun, Nov 05, 2017 at 09:46:18AM -0800, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I know around the 20th I wasn?t the only one having problems. Are > there still issues? I have had some issues during Oct 21st-22nd (Sat + Sun). Emails from US-based mailing lists stopped coming. On top of that, www.classiccmp.org was not responding. On later Sunday afternoon (I was GMT+2, now I am GMT+1) everything looked normal again and mute lists all came back either around this time or (I think) during next day or two. No idea what could have been the cause of this or how widespread it was. I have not spotted anything in the news, and maybe I will have some time to spare on thinking more about this puzzle, or maybe not - given that is solved itself and chances are, very few were affected. [...] > > It will be interesting to see if this makes it through. It made it through, apparently. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 7 15:07:13 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 21:07:13 -0000 Subject: List Problems? In-Reply-To: <20171107182540.GA28449@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <7F969946-678E-4DCC-911D-6B2EB4C10145@avanthar.com> <20171107182540.GA28449@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <003201d3580c$6304ff00$290efd00$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tomasz > Rola via cctalk > Sent: 07 November 2017 18:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Zane Healy > Subject: Re: List Problems? > > On Sun, Nov 05, 2017 at 09:46:18AM -0800, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > I know around the 20th I wasn?t the only one having problems. Are > > there still issues? > > I have had some issues during Oct 21st-22nd (Sat + Sun). Emails from US-based > mailing lists stopped coming. On top of that, www.classiccmp.org was not > responding. On later Sunday afternoon (I was > GMT+2, now I am GMT+1) everything looked normal again and mute lists > all came back either around this time or (I think) during next day or two. > > No idea what could have been the cause of this or how widespread it was. I > have not spotted anything in the news, and maybe I will have some time to > spare on thinking more about this puzzle, or maybe not - given that is solved > itself and chances are, very few were affected. > This has happened to me too, twice in recent weeks, and not just to me, to a friend here in the UK too. By "this" I mean, no emails from the list and www.classiccmp.org not responding. Regards Rob From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Tue Nov 7 15:15:16 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2017 21:15:16 +0000 Subject: List Problems? In-Reply-To: <003201d3580c$6304ff00$290efd00$@ntlworld.com> References: <7F969946-678E-4DCC-911D-6B2EB4C10145@avanthar.com> <20171107182540.GA28449@tau1.ceti.pl> <003201d3580c$6304ff00$290efd00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <871sl94wpn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tomasz >> Rola via cctalk >> Sent: 07 November 2017 18:26 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Cc: Zane Healy >> Subject: Re: List Problems? >> >> On Sun, Nov 05, 2017 at 09:46:18AM -0800, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> > I know around the 20th I wasn?t the only one having problems. Are >> > there still issues? >> >> I have had some issues during Oct 21st-22nd (Sat + Sun). Emails from US-based >> mailing lists stopped coming. On top of that, www.classiccmp.org was not >> responding. On later Sunday afternoon (I was >> GMT+2, now I am GMT+1) everything looked normal again and mute lists >> all came back either around this time or (I think) during next day or two. >> >> No idea what could have been the cause of this or how widespread it was. I >> have not spotted anything in the news, and maybe I will have some time to >> spare on thinking more about this puzzle, or maybe not - given that is solved >> itself and chances are, very few were affected. >> > > > This has happened to me too, twice in recent weeks, and not just to me, to a friend here in the UK too. By "this" I mean, no emails from the list and www.classiccmp.org not responding. > > Regards > > Rob If better hosting is required and there was a donation button, I'd be happy to click it. I'm sure many other list members would be too. Aaron. From perlpowers at gmail.com Tue Nov 7 15:18:16 2017 From: perlpowers at gmail.com (Hayden Kroepfl) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 14:18:16 -0700 Subject: List Problems? In-Reply-To: <003201d3580c$6304ff00$290efd00$@ntlworld.com> References: <7F969946-678E-4DCC-911D-6B2EB4C10145@avanthar.com> <20171107182540.GA28449@tau1.ceti.pl> <003201d3580c$6304ff00$290efd00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I had this just last weekend. No mail from the list starting early morning on the 4th and didn't start getting new mail till the morning of the 6th. During that time the website wasn't responding for me either. -- Hayden On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 2:07 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tomasz >> Rola via cctalk >> Sent: 07 November 2017 18:26 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Cc: Zane Healy >> Subject: Re: List Problems? >> >> On Sun, Nov 05, 2017 at 09:46:18AM -0800, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> > I know around the 20th I wasn?t the only one having problems. Are >> > there still issues? >> >> I have had some issues during Oct 21st-22nd (Sat + Sun). Emails from US-based >> mailing lists stopped coming. On top of that, www.classiccmp.org was not >> responding. On later Sunday afternoon (I was >> GMT+2, now I am GMT+1) everything looked normal again and mute lists >> all came back either around this time or (I think) during next day or two. >> >> No idea what could have been the cause of this or how widespread it was. I >> have not spotted anything in the news, and maybe I will have some time to >> spare on thinking more about this puzzle, or maybe not - given that is solved >> itself and chances are, very few were affected. >> > > > This has happened to me too, twice in recent weeks, and not just to me, to a friend here in the UK too. By "this" I mean, no emails from the list and www.classiccmp.org not responding. > > Regards > > Rob > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Nov 7 15:46:59 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 16:46:59 -0500 Subject: snippit of R2E hisoty on the surplus market. DEALIN'' ELECTRONICS date?? Message-ID: <36e10d.51be463e.473383d2@aol.com> Later in life when Bull owned R2E there was a z-80 with either just floppy or floppy and hard drive... I have a catalog of an outfit surplussing a group of them in USA called DEALIN'' ELECTRONICS in Palo Alto. Date? Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 7 16:12:57 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 16:12:57 -0600 Subject: List Problems? In-Reply-To: References: <7F969946-678E-4DCC-911D-6B2EB4C10145@avanthar.com> <20171107182540.GA28449@tau1.ceti.pl> <003201d3580c$6304ff00$290efd00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000201d35815$91881b10$b4985130$@classiccmp.org> Yes, I am aware of the list problems. Yes, it went down a couple weeks ago and again about a week ago. The issue is that I've been migrating the classiccmp server VM from an old falling apart cluster to a new one. Rather than just migrate it, I decided to take the time to upgrade everything. All software, all dependancies, OS, etc etc. My approach was to create a new classiccmp server on the new cluster, and then migrate one website/ftp site/repository/mailinglist at a time. This way I could make sure things are running ok before just moving everything. What that means is that as of this moment, some classiccmp related websites are on the 'old' but running server, and some are on the 'new' but running server. That is why - for just one example - that when the old (but still in production) server went down a couple weeks ago (see below)... bitsavers still stayed up and running. It had already been migrated. So on the old falling apart cluster where the old server is, there is a horrendous iscsi issue. This is partly a problem with freebsd and some silly assumptions made by the developers, or at least lack of time to fix it. It's also due to some bad network related items. But mostly it is due to the fact that all of our production clients we moved off the old stuff a year ago and that hardware isn't well maintained and targeted for decommission. That can't happen until my hobby classiccmp list/site, and all the vintage computer related sites that I host for free.... get moved. Yes, there are active backups of everything. But whenever the iscsi issue presents itself, I have to restore the entire VM, and that takes a long long time. So no Aaron - better hosting isn't needed. Nor is any donation. I just need to find a bunch of roundtuits so I can finish the migration. Then it will be stable again. This is a hobby, and life does intervene at times. About the only thing I'll ask is if you ever meet me in person at an event, buy me a glass of beer and I'll be happy. J From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 7 17:26:53 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 15:26:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: List Problems? In-Reply-To: <000201d35815$91881b10$b4985130$@classiccmp.org> References: <7F969946-678E-4DCC-911D-6B2EB4C10145@avanthar.com> <20171107182540.GA28449@tau1.ceti.pl> <003201d3580c$6304ff00$290efd00$@ntlworld.com> <000201d35815$91881b10$b4985130$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Nov 2017, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > it will be stable again. This is a hobby, and life does intervene at > times. About the only thing I'll ask is if you ever meet me in person at > an event, buy me a glass of beer and I'll be happy. Until we happen to run into you, is there a beer button that we can click? From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue Nov 7 17:47:00 2017 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2017 00:47:00 +0100 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <20171029224955.GB5088@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20171029200833.GA5088@tau1.ceti.pl> <010b01d350f6$98e6b630$cab42290$@gmail.com> <20171029224955.GB5088@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <1510098420.8079.2.camel@agj.net> s?n 2017-10-29 klockan 23:49 +0100 skrev Tomasz Rola via cctalk: > On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 08:43:36PM -0000, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > > via cctalk > [...] > > > > > > Doesn't randomly crash. > > > Doesn't get viruses > > > Doesn't have licence agreements > > Also: no ransomware. > Personally i got myself this weekend a a nice ballpen. A ballpen with normal inards but a outside of wood - real Jakkaranda (old stock from an well known swedish carpenter.) > > These devices are not without problems... > > > > If I use a Pen the ink leaks all over my shirt, > > > I switched to a clutch pencil and when I dropped it all the leads broke... > > I have been using ballpen a lot. Problem was, when original ink holder > ran out, the replacements I could buy were of mediocore quality. So I > optimised and now go with disposables - like Stabilo. Also, Bic, if I > have chance. Or anything from that shelve, I am not purist. > > As of ink leaks, perhaps holding pen in some hardened case would do? > Maybe together with notepad? > The ink patron itself is a standard version (unfortunately not Ballograf.) From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Nov 7 18:00:17 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 22:00:17 -0200 Subject: List Problems? In-Reply-To: <000201d35815$91881b10$b4985130$@classiccmp.org> References: <7F969946-678E-4DCC-911D-6B2EB4C10145@avanthar.com> <20171107182540.GA28449@tau1.ceti.pl> <003201d3580c$6304ff00$290efd00$@ntlworld.com> <000201d35815$91881b10$b4985130$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >About the only thing I'll ask is if you ever meet me in person at an event, buy me a glass of beer and I'll be happy. I'm some 10.000 km from you, I doubt I'll have the pleasure of buying you a beer in person. Maybe a button we could remotely click? :) 2017-11-07 20:12 GMT-02:00 Jay West via cctalk : > Yes, I am aware of the list problems. Yes, it went down a couple weeks ago > and again about a week ago. The issue is that I've been migrating the > classiccmp server VM from an old falling apart cluster to a new one. Rather > than just migrate it, I decided to take the time to upgrade everything. All > software, all dependancies, OS, etc etc. > > My approach was to create a new classiccmp server on the new cluster, and > then migrate one website/ftp site/repository/mailinglist at a time. This > way I could make sure things are running ok before just moving everything. > What that means is that as of this moment, some classiccmp related websites > are on the 'old' but running server, and some are on the 'new' but running > server. That is why - for just one example - that when the old (but still > in production) server went down a couple weeks ago (see below)... bitsavers > still stayed up and running. It had already been migrated. > > So on the old falling apart cluster where the old server is, there is a > horrendous iscsi issue. This is partly a problem with freebsd and some > silly assumptions made by the developers, or at least lack of time to fix > it. It's also due to some bad network related items. But mostly it is due > to the fact that all of our production clients we moved off the old stuff a > year ago and that hardware isn't well maintained and targeted for > decommission. That can't happen until my hobby classiccmp list/site, and > all the vintage computer related sites that I host for free.... get moved. > > Yes, there are active backups of everything. But whenever the iscsi issue > presents itself, I have to restore the entire VM, and that takes a long > long time. > > So no Aaron - better hosting isn't needed. Nor is any donation. I just > need to find a bunch of roundtuits so I can finish the migration. Then it > will be stable again. This is a hobby, and life does intervene at times. > About the only thing I'll ask is if you ever meet me in person at an event, > buy me a glass of beer and I'll be happy. > > J > > > > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 7 21:53:48 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2017 21:53:48 -0600 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <1510098420.8079.2.camel@agj.net> References: <20171029200833.GA5088@tau1.ceti.pl> <010b01d350f6$98e6b630$cab42290$@gmail.com> <20171029224955.GB5088@tau1.ceti.pl> <1510098420.8079.2.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <5A027FCC.7090405@pico-systems.com> On 11/07/2017 05:47 PM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: > A ballpen with normal inards but a outside of wood - real > Jakkaranda (old stock from an well known swedish carpenter.) I have no idea what Jacaranda (US spelling) looks like, but the trees are absolutely STUNNING when they are in bloom. I happened to be in the Los Angeles area late this spring, and got to see them in that state. They looked like giant purple snowballs. Jon From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Nov 8 00:04:35 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 22:04:35 -0800 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <5A027FCC.7090405@pico-systems.com> References: <20171029200833.GA5088@tau1.ceti.pl> <010b01d350f6$98e6b630$cab42290$@gmail.com> <20171029224955.GB5088@tau1.ceti.pl> <1510098420.8079.2.camel@agj.net> <5A027FCC.7090405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1dce649d-84e2-d545-3f69-d6e6116e20ef@jwsss.com> On 11/7/2017 7:53 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > They looked like giant purple snowballs. The droppings destroy the paint on your car, however.? Irvine is covered with them.? There is another tree with a red flower that has the tendril type bloom, I couldn't find what they were called.? Same problem with paint.? Maybe someone here more familiar with tree blooms might know. Just called them red and purple trees, but did know the purple was the Jacaranda. Would have loved to visit, if you come back out, let me know. thanks Jim From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Nov 7 22:31:11 2017 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 20:31:11 -0800 Subject: List Problems? In-Reply-To: <003201d3580c$6304ff00$290efd00$@ntlworld.com> References: <7F969946-678E-4DCC-911D-6B2EB4C10145@avanthar.com> <20171107182540.GA28449@tau1.ceti.pl> <003201d3580c$6304ff00$290efd00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <64227767-9E23-4511-A428-7D6816227067@avanthar.com> On Nov 7, 2017, at 1:07 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tomasz >> >> On Sun, Nov 05, 2017 at 09:46:18AM -0800, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> I know around the 20th I wasn?t the only one having problems. Are >>> there still issues? >> >> I have had some issues during Oct 21st-22nd (Sat + Sun). Emails from US-based >> mailing lists stopped coming. On top of that, www.classiccmp.org was not >> responding. On later Sunday afternoon (I was >> GMT+2, now I am GMT+1) everything looked normal again and mute lists >> all came back either around this time or (I think) during next day or two. >> >> No idea what could have been the cause of this or how widespread it was. I >> have not spotted anything in the news, and maybe I will have some time to >> spare on thinking more about this puzzle, or maybe not - given that is solved >> itself and chances are, very few were affected. > > This has happened to me too, twice in recent weeks, and not just to me, to a friend here in the UK too. By "this" I mean, no emails from the list and www.classiccmp.org not responding. The only reason I saw these two emails is because I?m CC?d on them. At least I now know that I can send emails to classiccmp, but I?m not getting emails from at this address. I?m not sure if the problem is with my new email provider (Rackspace), or with classiccmp. This is the only mail that I?m aware of not coming through. I?m not on as many email lists as I used to be, but the others seem to be working. Oddly enough, I?m still getting email at my Aracnet address since regaining email access to that account. Zane From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 01:05:51 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 23:05:51 -0800 Subject: HP 9836U processor mystery... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76c721ab-73d0-503f-14ac-98cd681485a0@gmail.com> On 11/6/2017 8:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 4:52 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk > wrote: > >> I'm curious if other people out there with 9836U's can confirm whether their >> machine has a 68000 or a 68010 in it, I'd just like to settle the internet >> discrepancy once and for all :). > Mine identifies the CPU as a 68010 in the power-on diagnostic. But from what > I remember the PGA socket could also take a 68012 (with extra address pins > brought out). I don't have such a chip, so no idea what it would identify as. > > -tony > Interesting.? So it looks like either processor was possible for the U variant.? (With a 68012 as a possibility as well.) hpmuseum.net is back up; here's the document I was referring to that mentions the 68000, see page 16: http://www.hpmuseum.net/pdf/ComputerNews_1983_Dec1_37pages_OCR.pdf What BOOTROM version do you have in your machine?? I have 4.0, I'm curious if there's a later version. Thanks, Josh From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Nov 8 01:25:44 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 08:25:44 +0100 Subject: List Problems? In-Reply-To: <000201d35815$91881b10$b4985130$@classiccmp.org> References: <7F969946-678E-4DCC-911D-6B2EB4C10145@avanthar.com> <20171107182540.GA28449@tau1.ceti.pl> <003201d3580c$6304ff00$290efd00$@ntlworld.com> <000201d35815$91881b10$b4985130$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20171108072543.GF32723@Update.UU.SE> I've said it before and I'll probably say it many times again. Thank you for your time, bandwidth, storage and CPU-hours! Also thanks for the update. /P On Tue, Nov 07, 2017 at 04:12:57PM -0600, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > Yes, I am aware of the list problems. Yes, it went down a couple weeks ago and again about a week ago. The issue is that I've been migrating the classiccmp server VM from an old falling apart cluster to a new one. Rather than just migrate it, I decided to take the time to upgrade everything. All software, all dependancies, OS, etc etc. > > My approach was to create a new classiccmp server on the new cluster, and then migrate one website/ftp site/repository/mailinglist at a time. This way I could make sure things are running ok before just moving everything. What that means is that as of this moment, some classiccmp related websites are on the 'old' but running server, and some are on the 'new' but running server. That is why - for just one example - that when the old (but still in production) server went down a couple weeks ago (see below)... bitsavers still stayed up and running. It had already been migrated. > > So on the old falling apart cluster where the old server is, there is a horrendous iscsi issue. This is partly a problem with freebsd and some silly assumptions made by the developers, or at least lack of time to fix it. It's also due to some bad network related items. But mostly it is due to the fact that all of our production clients we moved off the old stuff a year ago and that hardware isn't well maintained and targeted for decommission. That can't happen until my hobby classiccmp list/site, and all the vintage computer related sites that I host for free.... get moved. > > Yes, there are active backups of everything. But whenever the iscsi issue presents itself, I have to restore the entire VM, and that takes a long long time. > > So no Aaron - better hosting isn't needed. Nor is any donation. I just need to find a bunch of roundtuits so I can finish the migration. Then it will be stable again. This is a hobby, and life does intervene at times. About the only thing I'll ask is if you ever meet me in person at an event, buy me a glass of beer and I'll be happy. > > J > > > > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Nov 8 02:56:22 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 09:56:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> References: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2017, CuriousMarc wrote: > The link below is from the computer museum in Cambridge, UK, which seems to > have a copy of an HP 2640 terminal manual I am looking for. Is anyone from > that museum on the list? Does any of the UK members know them? > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/14373/HP-2640-Series-Character-Set-Ge > neration/ > > Does anyone on the list have a copy of this manual? I not only have a copy, I have the original of the manual (along with tons of other stuff like microcode listings etc. for the 264x series). I will scan it these days and make it online - for free in contrast to the Cambridge guys :-) Christian From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 04:06:56 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 10:06:56 -0000 Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: References: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <048801d35879$4f440020$edcc0060$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian > Corti via cctalk > Sent: 08 November 2017 08:56 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK > > On Fri, 3 Nov 2017, CuriousMarc wrote: > > The link below is from the computer museum in Cambridge, UK, which > > seems to have a copy of an HP 2640 terminal manual I am looking for. > > Is anyone from that museum on the list? Does any of the UK members > know them? > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/14373/HP-2640-Series- > Character- > > Set-Ge > > neration/ > > > > Does anyone on the list have a copy of this manual? > > I not only have a copy, I have the original of the manual (along with tons of > other stuff like microcode listings etc. for the 264x series). > I will scan it these days and make it online - for free in contrast to the > Cambridge guys :-) > > Christian With respect , you can view it in person for the price of admission. They also say that limited resources mean they have no timescale for this. In the UK being a small museum is a challenge. Many years ago "the government" said that any museum that was government supported had to be free to enter, otherwise their funding would stop. As a result, the BIG museums such as the Science Museum became free to enter and get government funding. This puts smaller museums in a very difficult situation. They don't get any funding, non is available, so realistically they have to charge for admission, which means they have problems competing for footfall. At least they have made their collection index available so you can see what they have, and you can go and see it on request. Contrast this with The National Museum of Computing (which is not nationally funded) or the Science Museum Group (which is nationally funded). Both have large numbers of objects which are not catalogued and/or not available to see. So I know that the Science Museum Group has a set of PDP8 diagnostic tapes, I have seen and photographed them, but they are not available to view, less still read... Dave From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 04:31:03 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 10:31:03 +0000 Subject: HP 9836U processor mystery... In-Reply-To: <76c721ab-73d0-503f-14ac-98cd681485a0@gmail.com> References: <76c721ab-73d0-503f-14ac-98cd681485a0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 7:05 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 11/6/2017 8:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > What BOOTROM version do you have in your machine? I have 4.0, I'm curious > if there's a later version. Mine is 4.0 -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 8 06:38:09 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 12:38:09 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 chassis on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20171105140448.E025118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1017381870.3764053.1510066841145@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <94d753f7-f637-b9fa-b084-c43b36d10091@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/11/2017 15:09, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > The seller in the past sold an 8i I believe, it's probably an 8i. > Bill > > On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Dave via cctalk > wrote: > >> Can you tell which PDP8 this goes with? Would an 8/e panel fit? >> Dave It's an 8/e (of which I have two, and a nearby friend has three or four more, as well as a couple of 8/Ms) chassis. It takes a big linear PSU and two 10-slot Omnibus backplanes. The 8/F and 8/M (OEM version, usually with a very simple turnkey panel) are shorter, take only one 10-slot Omnibus backplane, and have a completely different switch-mode PSU. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 09:53:14 2017 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 15:53:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: PDP-8 chassis on eBay In-Reply-To: <94d753f7-f637-b9fa-b084-c43b36d10091@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20171105140448.E025118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1017381870.3764053.1510066841145@mail.yahoo.com> <94d753f7-f637-b9fa-b084-c43b36d10091@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <462831024.4490066.1510156394748@mail.yahoo.com> I managed to snag the chassis and what I hope is the matching cover.? I thought it looked like an 8/e or 8/f. When I bought my PDP 8/m, I also picked up 2 extra complete board sets (including front panels, and power supplies from the seller's swap/repair stock.? The front panels are the 8/f/m versions (with LEDs), as are the switching supplies.? I've been looking for a chassis ever since, although I suppose I could have adapted a commercial 19" chassis.? Now I need to find a backplane (or 2), bezel, and lock. As a side note, I bought my 8/m from a guy who ran a business setting up leather and textile embroidery (cowboy boots, etc.) systems based on DEC PDP/8 and PDP/11 controllers.? The business was still going as of 3 years ago.? The owner was working on a EPROM emulator to simplify programming of a particular PDP-11 based controller, which stored the designs in EPROM.? He apparently still had some customers running setups in Canada and India based on 8/a systems.? He was just getting around to retiring the last of the 8/m based systems.? His shop was (hopefully is) a living vintage DEC museum, but for him it was simply his work.? Of course a Raspberry Pi could fully replace those systems, even running the PDP-11 embroidery design software on SIMH, but apparently customers don't like to mess with working systems. Dave On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 6:50 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: On 07/11/2017 15:09, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > The seller in the past sold an 8i I believe, it's probably an 8i. > Bill > > On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Dave via cctalk > wrote: > >> Can you tell which PDP8 this goes with?? Would an 8/e panel fit? >> Dave It's an 8/e (of which I have two, and a nearby friend has three or four more, as well as a couple of 8/Ms) chassis.? It takes a big linear PSU and two 10-slot Omnibus backplanes.? The 8/F and 8/M (OEM version, usually with a very simple turnkey panel) are shorter, take only one 10-slot Omnibus backplane, and have a completely different switch-mode PSU. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 8 10:23:36 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 11:23:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-8 chassis on eBay Message-ID: <20171108162336.ACD4818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dave > I managed to snag the chassis and what I hope is the matching cover. No, that cover is for a paper-tape reader. Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 8 10:35:21 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2017 10:35:21 -0600 Subject: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA In-Reply-To: <1dce649d-84e2-d545-3f69-d6e6116e20ef@jwsss.com> References: <20171029200833.GA5088@tau1.ceti.pl> <010b01d350f6$98e6b630$cab42290$@gmail.com> <20171029224955.GB5088@tau1.ceti.pl> <1510098420.8079.2.camel@agj.net> <5A027FCC.7090405@pico-systems.com> <1dce649d-84e2-d545-3f69-d6e6116e20ef@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5A033249.3000404@pico-systems.com> On 11/08/2017 12:04 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 11/7/2017 7:53 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> >> They looked like giant purple snowballs. > The droppings destroy the paint on your car, however. > Irvine is covered with them. There is another tree with a > red flower that has the tendril type bloom, I couldn't > find what they were called. Same problem with paint. > Maybe someone here more familiar with tree blooms might know. > > Just called them red and purple trees, but did know the > purple was the Jacaranda. > > Would have loved to visit, if you come back out, let me know. Oh, it was the wedding of my son the Marine, and was a QUITE busy time, indeed! We were only out there for a few days. But, if time permits, and we get out there again with more time available, then I will likely get in contact with a few people. One of these days, I might actually be allowed to retire, and then more time would be available to visit with people. Jon From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 10:57:00 2017 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 11:57:00 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 chassis on eBay In-Reply-To: <20171108162336.ACD4818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171108162336.ACD4818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Somewhat related: does anyone on the east coast of the US (I'm in NYC) have a PDP-8/e or equivalent bezel I might try making a silicone mold from? I know Rob Smallwood had designs to do just this but I have some free time to spare... =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Dave > > > I managed to snag the chassis and what I hope is the matching cover. > > No, that cover is for a paper-tape reader. > > Noel > From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 11:32:47 2017 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 17:32:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: PDP-8 chassis on eBay In-Reply-To: <20171108162336.ACD4818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171108162336.ACD4818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1321889839.4534125.1510162367107@mail.yahoo.com> Doh! I suppose that's what HSPT stands for.? Missed that. Dave On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 10:23 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: ? ? > From: Dave ? ? > I managed to snag the chassis and what I hope is the matching cover. No, that cover is for a paper-tape reader. ??? Noel From rtomek at ceti.pl Wed Nov 8 13:56:46 2017 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 20:56:46 +0100 Subject: List Problems? In-Reply-To: <000201d35815$91881b10$b4985130$@classiccmp.org> References: <7F969946-678E-4DCC-911D-6B2EB4C10145@avanthar.com> <20171107182540.GA28449@tau1.ceti.pl> <003201d3580c$6304ff00$290efd00$@ntlworld.com> <000201d35815$91881b10$b4985130$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20171108195646.GB11926@tau1.ceti.pl> On Tue, Nov 07, 2017 at 04:12:57PM -0600, Jay West via cctalk wrote: [...] > So no Aaron - better hosting isn't needed. Nor is any donation. I > just need to find a bunch of roundtuits so I can finish the > migration. Then it will be stable again. This is a hobby, and life > does intervene at times. About the only thing I'll ask is if you > ever meet me in person at an event, buy me a glass of beer and I'll > be happy. Man, you certainly deserve a beer. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From rtomek at ceti.pl Wed Nov 8 14:04:10 2017 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 21:04:10 +0100 Subject: List Problems? In-Reply-To: <64227767-9E23-4511-A428-7D6816227067@avanthar.com> References: <7F969946-678E-4DCC-911D-6B2EB4C10145@avanthar.com> <20171107182540.GA28449@tau1.ceti.pl> <003201d3580c$6304ff00$290efd00$@ntlworld.com> <64227767-9E23-4511-A428-7D6816227067@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <20171108200410.GC11926@tau1.ceti.pl> On Tue, Nov 07, 2017 at 08:31:11PM -0800, Zane Healy wrote: [...] > > The only reason I saw these two emails is because I?m CC?d on them. > At least I now know that I can send emails to classiccmp, but I?m > not getting emails from at this address. I?m not sure if the > problem is with my new email provider (Rackspace), or with > classiccmp. This is the only mail that I?m aware of not coming > through. I?m not on as many email lists as I used to be, but the > others seem to be working. > > Oddly enough, I?m still getting email at my Aracnet address since > regaining email access to that account. > > Zane > Try sending email to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org with subject line "help" and empty body; see what it tells you - perhaps you can play a bit with mailman commands. Perhaps resubscribing will solve the problem? Other than above, I have no more ideas. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 18:54:29 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 16:54:29 -0800 Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: References: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <057901d358f5$4d5b3090$e81191b0$@gmail.com> Christian, Awesome! The microcode listings would be fantastic too, as I also have a 2749 (which you are supposed to be able to program in assembly)! Let us know of the link! And may I add, price is right :-) Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Corti via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:56 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK On Fri, 3 Nov 2017, CuriousMarc wrote: > The link below is from the computer museum in Cambridge, UK, which > seems to have a copy of an HP 2640 terminal manual I am looking for. > Is anyone from that museum on the list? Does any of the UK members know them? > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/14373/HP-2640-Series-Character- > Set-Ge > neration/ > > Does anyone on the list have a copy of this manual? I not only have a copy, I have the original of the manual (along with tons of other stuff like microcode listings etc. for the 264x series). I will scan it these days and make it online - for free in contrast to the Cambridge guys :-) Christian From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 02:00:40 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 01:00:40 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: My first FPGA-Elf (2009) used an FPGA board that is long-since obsolete, and while I updated it last year, it used an FPGA board that was not commercially available, and would have been frighteningly expensive if it was. For the most recent RetroChallenge, I updated the FPGA-Elf to work on a readily-available, inexpensive FPGA module, the Digilent CMOD-A7-35T, which is available for $89. (It can also be made to work on the $75 CMOD-A7-15T, but I recommend the -35T as it can provide more RAM.) As part of the RetroChallenge, I added emulation of the CDP1861 PIXIE graphics. Various photos can be seen at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/albums/72157687136287141 The project progress is described, in reverse chronological order, on my blog: http://whats.all.this.brouhaha.com/category/computing/retrocomputing/retrochallenge/ I designed a base PCB into which the which the CMOD-A7 module plugs. The base board provides for use of hexadecimal displays (either HP or TI) for data and (optional) address, a connector for the switches, a serial port, a composite video ports, and an optional MicroSD breakout board. A 5V 2A regulated wall-wart provides power. There are a few issues with the board design requiring a few traces cut and jumpers and resistors added, and I haven't yet written any software to deal with the MicroSD card. I plan to have a new revision of the main board made to correct the known issues. The switch PCB and bezel PCB don't need another revision. I still need to write some documentation, but I've put the rev 0 main board Eagle files, Gerber files, and PDF files of the schematic and layout at: http://www.frobco.com/e1000/ I'm willing to make bare boards available for those who want to build their own. This version runs at 256x the speed of a normal Elf w/ PIXIE. It's clocked at 56.34 MHz, but it executes all instructions in one-eighth the clock cycles required by an 1802. My 1861 implementation uses a dual-port RAM to allow the CPU to run fast while still producing normal NTSC-rate video. I plan to make the processor speed configurable to 1x or 256x, with perhaps a few intermediate choices. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Nov 9 03:55:12 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 10:55:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: <057901d358f5$4d5b3090$e81191b0$@gmail.com> References: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> <057901d358f5$4d5b3090$e81191b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2017, CuriousMarc wrote: > Awesome! The microcode listings would be fantastic too, as I also have a > 2749 (which you are supposed to be able to program in assembly)! Let us know The firmware is already on bitsavers, IIRC. But you can program every 264x terminal in assembly. There are some games like Pong, Space Invaders etc. for these terminals, both for the i8008 based 2640/2644 and the i8080 based 2645/2648. These terminals all have a special control code sequence to load a binary file (either from tape or from the serial line) into memory and start executing. It is " & b". A short description and sample program for the 8008 based terminals can be found here: http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/hp2644/diag.html Christian From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Nov 9 04:15:07 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 02:15:07 -0800 Subject: BBS'ing and early discussions. Message-ID: I wonder if there is any better archive of the original DejaNews and peoples personal archives than Google Groups. When the Google Groups took over I know a lot of stuff I had participated in was dropped for not reason from Googles take on the import of data. And the BBSs I used were generally participating in such discussions as technical ones on hardware and the like, and went directly in some cases to usenet discussions as that became available. I'd be interested in hearing recollections.? I'd not recalled DejaNews in a long time. Main reason is this weeks Minix kerfuffle in the press.? I exchanged emails and comments with Tanenbaum when he published the system in his original book.? I don't have any info around at hand to look at what I did beside run it, but one of my main interests in any platform at that time was to be able to compile the system on itself. thanks Jim From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 06:39:36 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 13:39:36 +0100 Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: References: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> <057901d358f5$4d5b3090$e81191b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2017-11-09 10:55 GMT+01:00 Christian Corti via cctalk : > On Wed, 8 Nov 2017, CuriousMarc wrote: > >> Awesome! The microcode listings would be fantastic too, as I also have a >> 2749 (which you are supposed to be able to program in assembly)! Let us >> know >> > > The firmware is already on bitsavers, IIRC. But you can program every 264x > terminal in assembly. There are some games like Pong, Space Invaders etc. > for these terminals, both for the i8008 based 2640/2644 and the i8080 based > 2645/2648. These terminals all have a special control code sequence to load > a binary file (either from tape or from the serial line) into memory and > start executing. It is " & b". > A short description and sample program for the 8008 based terminals can be > found here: > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/hp2644/diag.html Very interesting! I have a 2640 which I recently refurbished the screen on and it runs happily and then a 2645 that still needs treatment for the screen rot. Is the binaries for pong and space invaders downloadable somewhere? I searched the usual places, but haven't found anything. It would be interesting to test this binary download mode. > > > Christian > /Mattis From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Nov 9 08:29:28 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 15:29:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: <057901d358f5$4d5b3090$e81191b0$@gmail.com> References: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> <057901d358f5$4d5b3090$e81191b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: The manual has been scanned and is on our FTP server: ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/hp2648/13245-90001_2640SeriesCharacterSetGeneration_Oct1975.pdf Enjoy :-) @Al: you may push it to bitsavers Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Nov 9 08:37:57 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 15:37:57 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: References: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> <057901d358f5$4d5b3090$e81191b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Nov 2017, Mattis Lind wrote: > Very interesting! I have a 2640 which I recently refurbished the screen on > and it runs happily and then a 2645 that still needs treatment for the > screen rot. Is the binaries for pong and space invaders downloadable > somewhere? I searched the usual places, but haven't found anything. It > would be interesting to test this binary download mode. Sure, the files are on our FTP server: ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/hp2644 and .../hp2648 Christian From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Nov 9 09:40:48 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 10:40:48 -0500 Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK Message-ID: <65959a.acffa03.4735d0fe@aol.com> Many Thanks for this. A useful addition to our HP docs here. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 11/9/2017 7:29:40 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: The manual has been scanned and is on our FTP server: ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/hp2648/13245-90001_2640S eriesCharacterSetGeneration_Oct1975.pdf Enjoy :-) @Al: you may push it to bitsavers Christian From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 10:58:42 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 16:58:42 -0000 Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: <65959a.acffa03.4735d0fe@aol.com> References: <65959a.acffa03.4735d0fe@aol.com> Message-ID: <013401d3597c$00cf9fe0$026edfa0$@gmail.com> Of course I looked at this in a browser and the ftp server does not like the re-connects so whats the timer set to? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ed via > cctalk > Sent: 09 November 2017 15:41 > To: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK > > Many Thanks for this. > A useful addition to our HP docs here. > > Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) > > > In a message dated 11/9/2017 7:29:40 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > The manual has been scanned and is on our FTP server: > ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/hp2648/13245- > 90001_2640S > eriesCharacterSetGeneration_Oct1975.pdf > > Enjoy :-) > > @Al: you may push it to bitsavers > > Christian From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 14:19:06 2017 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 07:19:06 +1100 Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: References: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> <057901d358f5$4d5b3090$e81191b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2F1C4B11-E17E-4D90-AC87-A11FF46AD8F9@gmail.com> I?ll put it on www.hpmuseum.net as well so we have at least 2 sources...thanks for doing this! David Collins Sent from my iPad > On 10 Nov 2017, at 1:29 am, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > The manual has been scanned and is on our FTP server: > ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/hp2648/13245-90001_2640SeriesCharacterSetGeneration_Oct1975.pdf > > Enjoy :-) > > @Al: you may push it to bitsavers > > Christian From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 9 14:35:16 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 14:35:16 -0600 Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: <2F1C4B11-E17E-4D90-AC87-A11FF46AD8F9@gmail.com> References: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> <057901d358f5$4d5b3090$e81191b0$@gmail.com> <2F1C4B11-E17E-4D90-AC87-A11FF46AD8F9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601d3599a$404ed460$c0ec7d20$@classiccmp.org> And FYI... bitsavers is mirrored multiple places, so if it is at bitsavers, it's already got multiple sources. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 10 08:56:29 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 14:56:29 -0000 Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies Message-ID: <030e01d35a34$177a3300$466e9900$@gmail.com> https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/nov/08/geoff-tootill-obituary Dave Wade G4UGM & EA7KAE From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Nov 10 09:45:16 2017 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 15:45:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies References: <630398405.326118.1510328716629.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <630398405.326118.1510328716629@mail.yahoo.com> On Fri, 11/10/17, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/nov/08/geoff-tootill-obituary This raises the question, is there anyone still alive from those first-generation projects? I had guessed that at age 101, Harry Husky was the last one still alive when he passed away earlier this year. To put a finer point on the question, is anyone who was involved with the original designs of the ENIAC, the Baby, the EDSAC, the Pilot ACE, the Z1, or the Harvard Mark I still with us? BLS From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 10 10:50:34 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 08:50:34 -0800 Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: References: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> <057901d358f5$4d5b3090$e81191b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/9/17 6:29 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > @Al: you may push it to bitsavers done From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 10 11:35:32 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 17:35:32 -0000 Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies In-Reply-To: <630398405.326118.1510328716629@mail.yahoo.com> References: <630398405.326118.1510328716629.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <630398405.326118.1510328716629@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <036f01d35a4a$4fd7f870$ef87e950$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian L. Stuart [mailto:blstuart at bellsouth.net] > Sent: 10 November 2017 15:45 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; Dave Wade > Subject: Re: Computing Pioneer Dies > > On Fri, 11/10/17, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > > https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/nov/08/geoff-tootill-obituary > I should point out there is a technical error in the Guardian. The Baby was the first Electronically Stored Program in what today we would call RAM. ENIAC had been configured in stored program mode earlier in the year and had run a program stored in the function switches, e.g. ROM a couple of months before baby. Despite the fact that when running stored programs ENIAC's parallel processing features were not available, it was exclusively in this mode from 1948 onwards. Note both machines are theoretically "Turing Complete" but having only 32 words of 32 bits the Baby was not of any practical use for a further 18 months whilst major surgery was carried out to add extra store and instructions to the machine leading the emergence of the Manchester MK1. > This raises the question, is there anyone still alive from those first-generation > projects? I had guessed that at age 101, Harry Husky was the last one still > alive when he passed away earlier this year. To put a finer point on the > question, is anyone who was involved with the original designs of the ENIAC, > the Baby, the EDSAC, the Pilot ACE, the Z1, or the Harvard Mark I still with us? Whilst I am not sure that any of the designers are still alive, I am sure that there are perhaps one or two who physically worked on the machine still with us. > > BLS Dave From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Fri Nov 10 11:49:00 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 17:49:00 +0000 Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies In-Reply-To: <030e01d35a34$177a3300$466e9900$@gmail.com> References: <030e01d35a34$177a3300$466e9900$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87po8qkos3.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> A few years back I wanted to study at Manchester uni, primarily so I could apply to be a demonstrator for the SSEM. Sad news. Dave Wade via cctalk writes: > https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/nov/08/geoff-tootill-obituary > > > > Dave Wade > > G4UGM & EA7KAE > > -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Nov 10 12:33:01 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 10:33:01 -0800 Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies In-Reply-To: <036f01d35a4a$4fd7f870$ef87e950$@gmail.com> References: <630398405.326118.1510328716629.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <630398405.326118.1510328716629@mail.yahoo.com> <036f01d35a4a$4fd7f870$ef87e950$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2017-Nov-10, at 9:35 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Brian L. Stuart [mailto:blstuart at bellsouth.net] >> Sent: 10 November 2017 15:45 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> ; Dave Wade >> Subject: Re: Computing Pioneer Dies >> >> On Fri, 11/10/17, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> >>> https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/nov/08/geoff-tootill-obituary >> > > I should point out there is a technical error in the Guardian. The Baby was the first Electronically Stored Program in what today we would call RAM. ENIAC had been configured in stored program mode earlier in the year and had run a program stored in the function switches, e.g. ROM a couple of months before baby. Despite the fact that when running stored programs ENIAC's parallel processing features were not available, it was exclusively in this mode from 1948 onwards. Note both machines are theoretically "Turing Complete" but having only 32 words of 32 bits the Baby was not of any practical use for a further 18 months whilst major surgery was carried out to add extra store and instructions to the machine leading the emergence of the Manchester MK1. Funny, I didn't see a "technical error" in the article. The best that can be said for your position is that you (and the ENIAC/Mauchlyite crowd) have a particular opinion and definition regarding 'stored-program computer'. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 10 20:16:18 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 21:16:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies Message-ID: <20171111021618.9364F18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dave Wade > ENIAC had been configured in stored program mode earlier in the year > and had run a program stored in the function switches, e.g. ROM > ... > Despite the fact that when running stored programs ENIAC's parallel > processing features were not available, it was exclusively in this mode > from 1948 onwards. This may have been mentioned here already, but if not, there's a good new book out which covers this phase of ENIAC's existence in considerable detail: Thomas Haigh, Mark Priestley, and Crispin Rope, "ENIAC In Action: Making and Remaking the Modern Computer", MIT Press, Cambridge, 2016 It's a very interesting and well-done book; I highly recommend it. > From: Brent Hilpert > The best that can be said for your position is that you (and the > ENIAC/Mauchlyite crowd) have a particular opinion and definition > regarding 'stored-program computer'. I'm harly a member of the "ENIAC/Mauchlyite crowd" (in fact, I used to not have a good impression of them at all), but I thought Haigh et al made a pretty good case. Noel From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Nov 10 22:16:05 2017 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 22:16:05 -0600 Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies In-Reply-To: <20171111021618.9364F18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171111021618.9364F18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > I'm harly a member of the "ENIAC/Mauchlyite crowd" (in fact, I used to not > have a good impression of them at all), but I thought Haigh et al made a > pretty good case. Here's Prof. Haigh speaking on ENIAC at VCFMW last year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O0pKPzJjEY From useddec at gmail.com Sat Nov 11 02:59:49 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 02:59:49 -0600 Subject: WTB: DEC DE500-FA Message-ID: Please contact me off list if you have any you want to trade or sell. Thanks, Paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Nov 11 04:13:55 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 10:13:55 -0000 Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies In-Reply-To: References: <20171111021618.9364F18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <042c01d35ad5$c8708eb0$5951ac10$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason T via > cctalk > Sent: 11 November 2017 04:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Computing Pioneer Dies > > > I'm harly a member of the "ENIAC/Mauchlyite crowd" (in fact, I used to > > not have a good impression of them at all), but I thought Haigh et al > > made a pretty good case. > > Here's Prof. Haigh speaking on ENIAC at VCFMW last year: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O0pKPzJjEY Thanks for that, I haven't (yet) watched the video (its an hour long but looking forward to it) , or indeed read the whole book but I have read the papers by Crispin Rope and also listened to a similar talk by Mark Priestley another co-author of the book, after which we chatted at length about all this. Whilst they make a good case they tend to skirt over the fact that ENIAC ran its stored programs from what in effect was a ROM. ENIAC just didn't have enough "RAM" (technically it just had registers) in which to store data and programs. So they re-purposed the function switches which, if I remember properly, were originally intended to be used for storing polynomial co-officiants or other parameters, I guess much in the same way as we us an input variable in a modern calculation, and used them to store a program. To do this required them to, in effect "microcode" a EDVAC like machine onto the ENIAC hardware. To me this was brilliant thinking, given that at the time they started no one had built such a machine, and of course so long as they included conditional branches, which they did, the machine will be Turing Complete. They then went on to use it to solve many problems, and by using the function switches to store they reduced the re-programming time from weeks to hours. Less for a small program. Of course modern computing without RAM is inconceivable and what the Baby/SSEM had was a program in RAM. You don't need to have the program in RAM for Turing completeness, but could anyone envisage modern computing without RAM. Note the concept of RAM wasn't new. In effect it?s the basis of a Turing machine which has an infinite tape which can be written, moved, erased and re-written is an infinite RAM. Nor was the implementation using a Williams tube long lasting, but at the time it was novel, simpler and cheaper to implement than Mercury Delay lines (EDSAC at Cambridge contained around a Ton of mercury), and IBM licenced the technology for the 701. When core became available it quickly replaced other storage technologies (except in the UK where we continued to use delay lines, but using torsion wire note Mercury, I assume to avoid the expense of licencing core. Dave G4UGM "Baby" Volunteer @ MSI Manchester From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Nov 10 14:42:00 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 15:42:00 -0500 Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies In-Reply-To: <030e01d35a34$177a3300$466e9900$@gmail.com> References: <030e01d35a34$177a3300$466e9900$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5dc1293a-d340-01e7-e068-3f6c696eac57@snarc.net> Heh ... so it begins on cctalk. Just like in modern politics, or science, etc., people have opinions which they think override facts. :) My own father does this and it drives me crazy. I'll say, "2+2=4" and he'll say, "I believe it's 5" ... DAD IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU FRIGGING BELIEVE, 2 PLUS 2 IS STILL 4!!!!!! From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Nov 10 14:37:18 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 15:37:18 -0500 Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies In-Reply-To: References: <630398405.326118.1510328716629.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <630398405.326118.1510328716629@mail.yahoo.com> <036f01d35a4a$4fd7f870$ef87e950$@gmail.com> Message-ID: >>>> https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/nov/08/geoff-tootill-obituary >> >> I should point out there is a technical error in the Guardian. The Baby was the first Electronically Stored Program in what today we would call RAM. ENIAC had been configured in stored program mode earlier in the year and had run a program stored in the function switches, e.g. ROM a couple of months before baby. Despite the fact that when running stored programs ENIAC's parallel processing features were not available, it was exclusively in this mode from 1948 onwards. Note both machines are theoretically "Turing Complete" but having only 32 words of 32 bits the Baby was not of any practical use for a further 18 months whilst major surgery was carried out to add extra store and instructions to the machine leading the emergence of the Manchester MK1. > > Funny, I didn't see a "technical error" in the article. > > The best that can be said for your position is that you (and the ENIAC/Mauchlyite crowd) have a particular opinion and definition regarding 'stored-program computer'. > Dave is correct. Perhaps he should have said "over simplification" rather than technical error. But what he wrote is well-documented. Tom Haigh and team of researchers explained the origins and varying definitions of "stored program" in their paper which you can freely read at http://eniacinaction.com/the-articles/1-reconsidering-the-stored-program-concept/. Tom, I'll point out, is British. Thanks to their research, there is no longer any gray area. ENIAC stored a program in what's now known as ROM, and very soon after the Baby stored a program in what's now known as RAM. The timeline and facts are very clear. As I mentioned to Dave privately, this epitomizes why I wish people would discuss computer history in terms of "generations" not "firsts". I banned the "F" word in the VCFed museum. :) From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Nov 11 10:29:45 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 11:29:45 -0500 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: <87lgjdlnhn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87lgjdlnhn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: I have successfully built a rl02 disk using pdpgui on a windows XP laptop, the newer version works on window 10. All you need other than the software is a serial card like a m7800. Pdpgui acts as a gui. Do you have a m9312 rom/terminator card with a terminal console rom? Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Nov 11, 2017 7:04 AM, "Aaron Jackson via cctech" wrote: > Well, some progress. > > It seems that a terminator is not required so long as the cable is VERY > short. The controller RLV12 controller appears to have a few termination > resistors on it anyway. There is no fault light appearing and the drives > spin up fine. Mine cable is less than 20cm and the PDP is sitting just > on top of the drive. > > I can see that the drive is communicating because the lsb of the csr > changes flips between 0 and 1 when I load and unload the drive. > > I wanted to try and dump the disks using vtserver, but when I run the > copy program I end up with the following > > ]] Enter name of input record/device: rl(0,0,0) > ]] > ]] Can't get rl(0,0,0) sts > ]] rl(0,0,0) err cy=0, hd=0, sc=2, rlcs=142205, rlmp=0 > ]] rl(0,0,0) error reading labelsector > ]] Enter name of input record/device: > > The same happened on both packs - they have both been cleaned and look > as though they are in good condition. The heads have been cleaned too. > > Given that the drive appears to be communicating with the PDP-11, where > might this problem come from? > > Thanks, > > Aaron. > > Aaron Jackson via cctech writes: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave > > Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I > > tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into > > board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the > > fault light turned off. So that's positive. > > > > I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and > > generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I > > could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light > > returns. I made a short video demonstrating this: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U > > > > According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following > > reasons: > > > > - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start? > > - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first > > - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above > > - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start. > > - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far > > - Write data error... Same as above > > - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault? > > > > So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is > > slipping or something like that? > > > > Can anyone offer some advice? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Aaron. > > > -- > Aaron Jackson > PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham > http://aaronsplace.co.uk > From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Nov 11 10:58:41 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 16:58:41 +0000 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87lgjdlnhn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87k1ywlpku.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> It sounds silly but I don't actually have access to a Windows machine, but PD11GUI looks nice. I managed to boot into XXDP today using tu58em and ran the RLV12 controller test. It seems though that the version of XXDP I loaded does not support the 22bit address (17774400) and defaults to the 16bit address (174400) so it just shows errors for everything. VTserver does seem to default to the 22bit address, and I can tell this because the error for vtserver (as included in my previous email) shows the output of the CSR (142205). I've also checked this value manually from ODT and it comes out the same after trying to read. b 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 = o 142205 >From what I can tell, this decodes to, from right to left: 0 Drive ready, yes 1-3 Command function code (0,1,0 = get status) 4-5 Extended address bits. I don't know what this means. 6 Interrupt enable, no. 7 Controller ready, when this gets cleared it runs the cmd in 1-3. 8-9 Indicates the current drive. I've only one connected, hence 0. 10-13 Error Code (0,0,0,1 = operation incomplete) 14 Drive Error, yes unfortunately. 15 Composite Error, indicates one or more error bits are set. The RL02 technical manual says to figure out why a drive error occurred, I can execute a get status command (?) and then perform an MPR read (?). So while I don't know how to do that, the error could be one of the following (apparently) - spin error. I assume it's not this because the ready light is on? - seek time out. Maybe this? - write lock. Only set when the drive is write protected. - current head error. Set when write current is detected while reading. - write data error. Set when no transitions are detected during writing. So, pretty confused. Thanks, Aaron. william degnan via cctech writes: > I have successfully built a rl02 disk using pdpgui on a windows XP laptop, > the newer version works on window 10. All you need other than the software > is a serial card like a m7800. Pdpgui acts as a gui. Do you have a m9312 > rom/terminator card with a terminal console rom? > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > On Nov 11, 2017 7:04 AM, "Aaron Jackson via cctech" > wrote: > >> Well, some progress. >> >> It seems that a terminator is not required so long as the cable is VERY >> short. The controller RLV12 controller appears to have a few termination >> resistors on it anyway. There is no fault light appearing and the drives >> spin up fine. Mine cable is less than 20cm and the PDP is sitting just >> on top of the drive. >> >> I can see that the drive is communicating because the lsb of the csr >> changes flips between 0 and 1 when I load and unload the drive. >> >> I wanted to try and dump the disks using vtserver, but when I run the >> copy program I end up with the following >> >> ]] Enter name of input record/device: rl(0,0,0) >> ]] >> ]] Can't get rl(0,0,0) sts >> ]] rl(0,0,0) err cy=0, hd=0, sc=2, rlcs=142205, rlmp=0 >> ]] rl(0,0,0) error reading labelsector >> ]] Enter name of input record/device: >> >> The same happened on both packs - they have both been cleaned and look >> as though they are in good condition. The heads have been cleaned too. >> >> Given that the drive appears to be communicating with the PDP-11, where >> might this problem come from? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Aaron. >> >> Aaron Jackson via cctech writes: >> >> > Hi everyone, >> > >> > I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave >> > Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I >> > tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into >> > board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the >> > fault light turned off. So that's positive. >> > >> > I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and >> > generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I >> > could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light >> > returns. I made a short video demonstrating this: >> > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U >> > >> > According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following >> > reasons: >> > >> > - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start? >> > - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first >> > - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above >> > - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start. >> > - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far >> > - Write data error... Same as above >> > - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault? >> > >> > So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is >> > slipping or something like that? >> > >> > Can anyone offer some advice? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Aaron. >> >> >> -- >> Aaron Jackson >> PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham >> http://aaronsplace.co.uk >> -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 11 12:31:08 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 13:31:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 Spinup fails Message-ID: <20171111183108.74E5A18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Aaron Jackson > The RL02 technical manual says to figure out why a drive error > occurred, I can execute a get status command (?) and then perform an > MPR read (?). So while I don't know how to do that, RLV 12 User Guide, section 5.2. Noel From jsw at ieee.org Sat Nov 11 13:05:24 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 13:05:24 -0600 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: <87k1ywlpku.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87lgjdlnhn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1ywlpku.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: > On Nov 11, 2017, at 10:58 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > ??... > The RL02 technical manual says to figure out why a drive error occurred, > I can execute a get status command (?) and then perform an MPR read > (?). So while I don't know how to do that, the error could be one of the > following (apparently) > > - spin error. I assume it's not this because the ready light is on? > - seek time out. Maybe this? > - write lock. Only set when the drive is write protected. > - current head error. Set when write current is detected while reading. > - write data error. Set when no transitions are detected during writing. > > So, pretty confused. > > Thanks, > > Aaron. > ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, >> >>> Well, some progress. >>> >>> It seems that a terminator is not required so long as the cable is VERY >>> short. The controller RLV12 controller appears to have a few termination >>> resistors on it anyway. There is no fault light appearing and the drives >>> spin up fine. Mine cable is less than 20cm and the PDP is sitting just >>> on top of the drive. >>> >>> I can see that the drive is communicating because the lsb of the csr >>> changes flips between 0 and 1 when I load and unload the drive. >>> >>> I wanted to try and dump the disks using vtserver, but when I run the >>> copy program I end up with the following >>> >>> ]] Enter name of input record/device: rl(0,0,0) >>> ]] >>> ]] Can't get rl(0,0,0) sts >>> ]] rl(0,0,0) err cy=0, hd=0, sc=2, rlcs=142205, rlmp=0 >>> ]] rl(0,0,0) error reading labelsector >>> ]] Enter name of input record/device: >>> >>> The same happened on both packs - they have both been cleaned and look >>> as though they are in good condition. The heads have been cleaned too. >>> >>> Given that the drive appears to be communicating with the PDP-11, where >>> might this problem come from? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Aaron. >>> Aaron, Do not underestimate the need for termination, even with a very short external cable. When you factor in the internal cables runs, crosstalk or signal reflections which interfere with operation may still be present, especially when data transfers start. If you have access to another bootable drive (8inch floppy?), suggest you load the XXDP+ diagnostics for RL Drives. Jerry From jsw at ieee.org Sat Nov 11 13:05:24 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 13:05:24 -0600 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: <87k1ywlpku.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87lgjdlnhn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1ywlpku.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: > On Nov 11, 2017, at 10:58 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > ??... > The RL02 technical manual says to figure out why a drive error occurred, > I can execute a get status command (?) and then perform an MPR read > (?). So while I don't know how to do that, the error could be one of the > following (apparently) > > - spin error. I assume it's not this because the ready light is on? > - seek time out. Maybe this? > - write lock. Only set when the drive is write protected. > - current head error. Set when write current is detected while reading. > - write data error. Set when no transitions are detected during writing. > > So, pretty confused. > > Thanks, > > Aaron. > ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, >> >>> Well, some progress. >>> >>> It seems that a terminator is not required so long as the cable is VERY >>> short. The controller RLV12 controller appears to have a few termination >>> resistors on it anyway. There is no fault light appearing and the drives >>> spin up fine. Mine cable is less than 20cm and the PDP is sitting just >>> on top of the drive. >>> >>> I can see that the drive is communicating because the lsb of the csr >>> changes flips between 0 and 1 when I load and unload the drive. >>> >>> I wanted to try and dump the disks using vtserver, but when I run the >>> copy program I end up with the following >>> >>> ]] Enter name of input record/device: rl(0,0,0) >>> ]] >>> ]] Can't get rl(0,0,0) sts >>> ]] rl(0,0,0) err cy=0, hd=0, sc=2, rlcs=142205, rlmp=0 >>> ]] rl(0,0,0) error reading labelsector >>> ]] Enter name of input record/device: >>> >>> The same happened on both packs - they have both been cleaned and look >>> as though they are in good condition. The heads have been cleaned too. >>> >>> Given that the drive appears to be communicating with the PDP-11, where >>> might this problem come from? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Aaron. >>> Aaron, Do not underestimate the need for termination, even with a very short external cable. When you factor in the internal cables runs, crosstalk or signal reflections which interfere with operation may still be present, especially when data transfers start. If you have access to another bootable drive (8inch floppy?), suggest you load the XXDP+ diagnostics for RL Drives. Jerry From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Nov 11 14:42:46 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 20:42:46 +0000 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87lgjdlnhn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1ywlpku.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87ineglf7d.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> > Aaron, > > Do not underestimate the need for termination, even with a very short external cable. > When you factor in the internal cables runs, crosstalk or signal reflections which interfere > with operation may still be present, especially when data transfers start. > > If you have access to another bootable drive (8inch floppy?), suggest you load the > XXDP+ diagnostics for RL Drives. > > Jerry Hi Jerry, thanks for the information. I had built several terminators, but being terrible at geometry I always did something wrong. I have now fixed one of the terminators I built. I had pins 1 and 40 mixed up, the rest of the terminator is basically a mirror copy. Unfortunately I still have the same error. I have an RX02 drive but no controller yet, so I'll have to continue investigating in the dark. Thanks, Aaron. From jsw at ieee.org Sat Nov 11 16:33:00 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 16:33:00 -0600 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: <87ineglf7d.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87lgjdlnhn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1ywlpku.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87ineglf7d.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <9267D28F-BEFF-4A62-9372-2218877DE386@ieee.org> > On Nov 11, 2017, at 2:42 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: > >> Aaron, >> >> Do not underestimate the need for termination, even with a very short external cable. >> When you factor in the internal cables runs, crosstalk or signal reflections which interfere >> with operation may still be present, especially when data transfers start. >> >> If you have access to another bootable drive (8inch floppy?), suggest you load the >> XXDP+ diagnostics for RL Drives. >> >> Jerry > > Hi Jerry, thanks for the information. > > I had built several terminators, but being terrible at geometry I always > did something wrong. I have now fixed one of the terminators I built. I > had pins 1 and 40 mixed up, the rest of the terminator is basically a > mirror copy. > > Unfortunately I still have the same error. > > I have an RX02 drive but no controller yet, so I'll have to continue > investigating in the dark. > > Thanks, > Aaron. I too have had home built cables cause me grief because of confusions around pins, keying or just being cable to properly fasten the connectors. Could elaborate a bit on this part of your earlier message. > I managed to boot into XXDP today using tu58em and ran the RLV12 > controller test. It seems though that the version of XXDP I loaded does > not support the 22bit address (17774400) and defaults to the 16bit > address (174400) so it just shows errors for everything. VRLBCO expects 16 bit addresses for hardware setup. Most of the XXDP diagnostic programs understand the 16 bit address for IO page type devices. Separately, if this diagnostic itself is not able to use 22 bit memory on an 11/73 with 1MB ram, then you may have other issues. It should not be tossing errors. The fact that XXDP cannot boot into extended addressing (XXDPXM) is not a good sign either. Jerry From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Nov 11 17:04:47 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 23:04:47 +0000 Subject: RL02 Spinup fails In-Reply-To: <9267D28F-BEFF-4A62-9372-2218877DE386@ieee.org> References: <87fu9s4o4t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87lgjdlnhn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1ywlpku.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87ineglf7d.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <9267D28F-BEFF-4A62-9372-2218877DE386@ieee.org> Message-ID: <87h8u0l8nx.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> >> > Could elaborate a bit on this part of your earlier message. > >> I managed to boot into XXDP today using tu58em and ran the RLV12 >> controller test. It seems though that the version of XXDP I loaded does >> not support the 22bit address (17774400) and defaults to the 16bit >> address (174400) so it just shows errors for everything. > > VRLBCO expects 16 bit addresses for hardware setup. Most of the > XXDP diagnostic programs understand the 16 bit address for IO page > type devices. > > Separately, if this diagnostic itself is not able to use 22 bit memory > on an 11/73 with 1MB ram, then you may have other issues. It > should not be tossing errors. The fact that XXDP cannot boot > into extended addressing (XXDPXM) is not a good sign either. I can try - it's not throwing errors as such but the tests are failing. For example, here is output for one of the tests. ] ROUTINE TRACE SEQ: ] 034314 ] 017252 ] INIT STATE TEST ] OPER: GET STAT ] RESULT: CNTLR HUNG ] BUS ADD=174400 DRV=0 ] RLCS RLDA RLBA RLMP CYL HD ] OP INIT = 000104 000003 000000 00000 ] OP DONE = 000000 000000 000000 00000 000 1 ] ] CZRL1 HDR ERR 10002 ON UNIT 00 TST 009 SUB 000 PC: 020074 It's saying the controller has hung, but address 174400 is just RAM so I don't expect it to get anything interesting back. Maybe telling a bit about the system will help. Here are the cards in the order that I have them. There were originally more but I have removed them as they are not necessary for getting RL02 drives working. - M8192 CPU (PDP-11/73) - M7185 Multifunction (boot, serial, 128K RAM) - M8067-LA (512K RAM) - M8067-LA (512K RAM) - M8061 (RLV12 controller) The M7185 has its own RAM. I'm not sure where this appears on the system, there may even be some kind of conflict with the proceeding RAM cards? There is not much documentation online for this card. I have no idea how to start the boot loader. A friend dumped the ROMs for me and I compared them to someone elses dumps and they seemed okay. I've read about people making a minor modification to this card to disable the on-board RAM. The RLV12 has its jumpers in the default configuration, so 22bit addressing. I can query the controller's registers at 17774400..17774410. The CSR usually has something interesting in which I can decode and it always makes sense, and matches the current drive state, for example whether the pack is loaded or not on the least significant bit. I'm not sure what is going on with the MPR. I perform a get status as described in Appendix C3 of the RL02 technical manual. If I am decoding the contents correctly it says things like the cover is open and that the drive type is an RL01. For example, at one point the contents was 167: w h w s s w v d d h c h b s s s d c l k p g c s t s o o h t t t e e t e e e c b a 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 1 - ST A,B,C are status bits, being 1,1,1 means "Spin down" - BH is brushes home, but I don't think this drive has brushes - HO is heads out - CO is cover open... the cover is closed unless it's referring to the logic cover. - HS is head select. 1 indicates the lower head - DT is drive type, 0 indicates RL01, but it is an RL02. - DSE is drive select error - VC is volume check - WGE is write gate error - SPE is spin error, either too slow or too fast - SKT is seek time out - WL is write lock, the status of the write lock button on the front - HCE is head current error - WDE write data error So there seems to be something wrong somewhere but I have no idea where. Thanks, Aaron. From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sat Nov 11 17:45:47 2017 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 15:45:47 -0800 Subject: VCF PNW (Feb 2018): Second call Exhibitors and Speakers Message-ID: In case you missed it we (the Vintage Computer Federation) is putting together a Vintage Computer Festival (VCF PNW) at the Living Computer Museum+Labs in Seattle. We are actively looking for exhibitors and speakers for this new show. The show will be held February 10th and 11th, 2018. We are not planning to charge for admission to the show so visitors will be able to enjoy the museum, the exhibits, speakers and the consignment area all for the normal cost of museum admission. We would like to get exhibitor registrations wrapped up by the end of November so that we can move to the next stage of planning. If you have an idea for an exhibit and would like to hang out at the museum for two days talking vintage computers then consider signing up today. Have an interesting topic for a presentation? We need those too ... Newbies need not be scared; I'm new to this as well. More information can be found at http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-pacific-northwest/ . Please email me directly if you have questions or need encouragement. Regards, Mike Brutman michael at vcfed.org From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Nov 11 19:53:05 2017 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 17:53:05 -0800 Subject: LA30 parts and question Message-ID: <0cf1fc8a-6aae-a877-2268-b036e962920d@fritzm.org> Hi folks, I'm picking my way through an LA30 restoration right now. It was pretty filthy, so I've needed to pretty thoroughly disassemble it for proper cleaning. I noticed that a few of the thin steel ribbon springs in the paper path are missing or broken on my unit, and some of the rubber bushings have hardened and deteriorated. Long shot ask, but wondering if anybody out there has spares of: 74-08648 (Spring, paper drag) 12-10357-3 (Bushing, rubber mount) 12-10358-3 (Ring, rubber mount) Also, the maintenance manual recommends Molykote B2KR for lubrication in a few places, but I can't seem to find specs on what this was. Can anybody recommend an equivalent modern alternative grease? cheers, --FritzM. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Nov 11 20:28:25 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 18:28:25 -0800 Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies In-Reply-To: References: <20171111021618.9364F18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4B357646-3E08-4354-9FE1-84561339B9C0@gmail.com> Fascinating talk Marc On Nov 10, 2017, at 8:16 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: >> I'm harly a member of the "ENIAC/Mauchlyite crowd" (in fact, I used to not >> have a good impression of them at all), but I thought Haigh et al made a >> pretty good case. > > Here's Prof. Haigh speaking on ENIAC at VCFMW last year: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O0pKPzJjEY From isking at uw.edu Sat Nov 11 22:33:29 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 20:33:29 -0800 Subject: OT: Trying to fix my account Message-ID: Sorry for the spam - I'm trying some ideas to see if I can figure out why I don't get cctalk/cctech messages anymore (for about a month now). -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Principal Investigator, "Reflections on Early Computing and Social Change", UW IRB #42619 Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Nov 11 23:05:53 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 21:05:53 -0800 Subject: HP 9836U processor mystery... In-Reply-To: References: <76c721ab-73d0-503f-14ac-98cd681485a0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <992472bf-1b32-6809-ea1b-1d56e66beec8@gmail.com> On 11/8/2017 2:31 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 7:05 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> On 11/6/2017 8:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> What BOOTROM version do you have in your machine? I have 4.0, I'm curious >> if there's a later version. > Mine is 4.0 > > -tony > Found a doc on Bitsavers (http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/9000_200/9000-200_periphSupp_Dec89.pdf, see page 4-2's footnotes) that indicates that there were two variants of the 9836U -- the earlier with the 12.5Mhz 68000, the later with a 68010.? Apparently the processor difference wasn't enough to require a model designation of its own. Apparently what I want for my system, HP-UX-wise is version 2.1. 5.1 just hangs after loading the kernel (no diagnostics) with either processor, I assume the processor board itself must have some revisional differences.? Maybe someday I'll track that down... - Josh From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Sun Nov 12 03:48:58 2017 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 10:48:58 +0100 Subject: IBM 2501 + doc + spares available in EU. Message-ID: Hi, Available in the Netherlands a compleet IBM 2501 punch card reader with all IBM documentation and spares from a scrapped unit. Please contact me off-line if interrested. h.j.stegeman at hccnet dot nl. Regards From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Nov 12 05:21:29 2017 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 12:21:29 +0100 Subject: IBM 2501 + doc + spares available in EU. References: Message-ID: <861C7B86B8AA401E8E87183C55B065A0@notebook> the 2501 was also part of the 3780 RJE terminal. The printer was a 1442 IIRC /Nico ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- Fra: Henk Stegeman via cctalk Til: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sendt: 12. november 2017 10:48 Emne: IBM 2501 + doc + spares available in EU. Hi, Available in the Netherlands a compleet IBM 2501 punch card reader with all IBM documentation and spares from a scrapped unit. Please contact me off-line if interrested. h.j.stegeman at hccnet dot nl. Regards -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 15172 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Nov 12 07:50:58 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 13:50:58 -0000 Subject: IBM 2501 + doc + spares available in EU. In-Reply-To: <861C7B86B8AA401E8E87183C55B065A0@notebook> References: <861C7B86B8AA401E8E87183C55B065A0@notebook> Message-ID: <050e01d35bbd$45b60660$d1221320$@gmail.com> Is that the one with the plastic toggle, which catches the cards on exit. If missing or taped up the cards fly across the room? Dave Wade > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nico de > Jong via cctalk > Sent: 12 November 2017 11:21 > To: Henk Stegeman ; General Discussion: On- > Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: IBM 2501 + doc + spares available in EU. > > the 2501 was also part of the 3780 RJE terminal. The printer was a 1442 IIRC > /Nico > ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- > Fra: Henk Stegeman via cctalk > Til: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Sendt: 12. november 2017 10:48 > Emne: IBM 2501 + doc + spares available in EU. > > > > Hi, > > Available in the Netherlands a compleet IBM 2501 punch card reader with > all > IBM documentation and spares from a scrapped unit. > > Please contact me off-line if interrested. > > h.j.stegeman at hccnet dot nl. > > Regards > > -- > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. > SPAMfighter has removed 15172 of my spam emails to date. > Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len > > Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW- > PCfighter?cid=sigen From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Sun Nov 12 10:53:08 2017 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 17:53:08 +0100 Subject: TEk4052/54 Diagnostic Rom pack docu available Message-ID: <56d6e2f7-ab95-6169-a27d-50847343e554@greenmail.ch> There are a few people out there struggeling with their 4052's : On ftp.dreesen.ch/FTP/TEK4052 they will find description, schematic, pictures and romdumps for the Diagnostic ROM pack, as used by the TEK engineers in the day. Also listed are the the TEK-supplied CRC's for all ROMS in the 4052/54 systems. No special components used, so nothing to stop you building your own Diagnostic pack. If anyone does so they can contact me if they need further info. ?Jos From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Nov 12 11:36:43 2017 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 10:36:43 -0700 Subject: DEC 19" racks Message-ID: <632e2561-6959-c2d4-f99b-ced3cc36a233@e-bbes.com> Hi all, anybody in Denver area is looking for some? (6 foot tall, grey) pickup only. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Nov 12 12:59:19 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 10:59:19 -0800 Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK In-Reply-To: References: <03b201d35472$c48dd230$4da97690$@gmail.com> <03fb01d35490$400f3a80$c02daf80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ECDF6AC-7721-4C82-B124-8822E3CB049B@gmail.com> Dave, The UK Museum responded to my email inquiry, and went through the effort of scanning their document and sending it to me. I'll forward it to David and Al for completeness. Marc From: Dave Wade Date: Friday, November 3, 2017 at 10:37 AM Well they say they would like to scan but no resource. Available to view on three days notice Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > CuriousMarc via cctalk > Sent: 03 November 2017 07:10 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK > > The link below is from the computer museum in Cambridge, UK, which > seems to have a copy of an HP 2640 terminal manual I am looking for. Is > anyone from that museum on the list? Does any of the UK members know > them? > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/14373/HP-2640-Series-Character- > Set-Ge > neration/ > > Does anyone on the list have a copy of this manual? > > Marc > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Nov 12 13:24:56 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 11:24:56 -0800 Subject: IBM 2501 + doc + spares available in EU. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9D0CC09D-CD76-41EA-A490-5FB571BB37AB@gmail.com> Dang. Wrong side of the pond. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: Henk Stegeman , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Sunday, November 12, 2017 at 1:48 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: IBM 2501 + doc + spares available in EU. Hi, Available in the Netherlands a compleet IBM 2501 punch card reader with all IBM documentation and spares from a scrapped unit. Please contact me off-line if interrested. h.j.stegeman at hccnet dot nl. Regards From barythrin at gmail.com Sun Nov 12 20:40:12 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 20:40:12 -0600 Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies Message-ID: <5a09060f.f0489d0a.58fa5.823f@mx.google.com> Can ya blame him? Back in his day 2s were *real* 2s.. bigger and tougher. You try and add 'em up, assuming they'd stay still long enough and stop wrastlin' with ya and who knows how big they'd be. -------- Original message --------From: Evan Koblentz via cctalk My own father does this and it drives me crazy. I'll say, "2+2=4" and he'll say, "I believe it's 5" ... DAD IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU FRIGGING BELIEVE, 2 PLUS 2 IS STILL 4!!!!!! From macro at linux-mips.org Sun Nov 12 18:44:42 2017 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:44:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DS12887 pcb substitute with battery In-Reply-To: References: <16ia5tihh85q34m2de3g11ib.1485109250088@email.android.com> <8050eb1b-2a2c-2477-cbf5-4a9bdd518cce@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi Chuck, It's taken me a little while to respond to this one, however certain matters do need time to develop. On Sun, 22 Jan 2017, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/22/2017 01:49 PM, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > > A problem with reworking is there is sometimes very little clearance > > available, so any modification has to be made in a clever way or you > > risk a short-circuit. For example in DECstation 5000 systems their > > DS1287 chip is located in the TURBOchannel option slot area with the > > top of the chip almost reaching the solder side of the PCB of any > > option plugged in there. > > Although there are several illustrations of the DS1287 rework where a > coin-cell holder was placed atop the chip, there's absolutely no reason > why that has to be so. A couple of wire leads away to an off-board > battery holder, holding, say, an ER14250 half-AA.will work just fine and > keep the battery away from the PCB--or a couple of alkaline AA cells, > which should last a few years. No reason to stick to lithium. Yeah, putting the aesthetic of the solution aside, in the DECstation there's the practical issue of making sure the wires do not obstruct shuffling TURBOchannel option cards and also finding a place where the substitute battery does not disturb the airflow such as to cause a component somewhere to overheat -- the whole side of the enclosure is a grille. > You know--"use your wetware". That always helps, as long as it's got enough input to process, in particular as to what resources are available. Mine has got that now, thanks to this thread of discussion, where I learnt of the existence of this small coin cell holder, and also the other thread mentioning wire-wrap wire and its excellent properties for small circuit repair/modification works. Naturally I picked up the green insulation color to match what DEC used to use, at least in their TURBOchannel equipment. :) So here: are a couple photos of the result, meeting both the clearance requirements and my subjective aesthetic criteria, and avoiding the issues I identified above. Taking into account the rated DS1285's standby power consumption of 0.5?A and the 35mAh 2.5V discharge level capacity of the CR1220 cell it will guarantee keeping the chip powered for 8 years. Which I think is enough given the ease to replace the cell now. For comparison the 48mAh capacity of the BR1225 cell originally embedded in the chip allowed for 11 years of operation and the CR2032 cell people seem to commonly choose allows for 50 years at its 220mAh capacity (which I find a bit of an overkill). Note that I have calculated approximate cell capacities based on discharge characteristic curves published by cell manufacturers, as the rated capacities published are calculated for the 2.0V discharge level whereas DS1285 is specified for 2.5V minimum battery voltage required for correct operation. For the record, I have measured the clearance available and it's 0.1875" (3/16") or 4.76mm from the top of the RTC chip to the bottom of the PCB of a TURBOchannel option right above it. The TURBOchannel mechanical spec allows for 0.075" (3/40") or 1.91mm underneath component or lead height (e.g. 24-plane HX+ options have memory chips there). Which leaves 0.1125" (9/80") or 2.86mm of space only. I may yet stick a piece of insulating tape on top of the RTC chip just to make sure no contact happens by chance, though I think it might be an overkill after all. It's not like the cell is going to pop out by itself. Maciej From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 13 12:06:32 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 13:06:32 -0500 Subject: ModComp II on Ebay Message-ID: Ebay item 272914490265 This is a ModComp IIC I think. It's all broken up in parts and half assembled. I don't think new it was barely $18,000 though, but some day, maybe the seller will give up and put up a realistic price. Who knows what's in it exactly but generally it looks like a communications model with a 7 or 9 track tape unit. The point of ModComp was to build custom systems but if the info on this system does not exist on BitSavers, let me know and I will scan some docs. I have info on the part numbers from the photos. The ModComp docs talk about IBM system emulation vs. DEC, so think along those lines more so, this is *not* a DataGeneral / DEC me-too despite looking a little like a PDP 8i BIll From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 13 13:23:57 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 14:23:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers Message-ID: <20171113192357.3018818C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, I was trying to find info about the early IBM 709/7090/7094 computers, but when I went to what is supposedly the authoritative work on these computers (among others): Charles J. Bashe, Lyle R. Johnson, John H. Palmer, Emerson W. Pugh, "IBM's Early Computers", MIT Press, Cambridge, 1986 I discovered there was very little technical detail about these machines there. Is there any other printed thing (yes, I know a few Web pages have some content) that anyone knows of that covers them in more detail? (I have a 709/7090/7094 programming thing coming, but that won't cover the internal engineering.) Yes, I know, I could look at the engineering manuals, but I was hoping for something in between them and Bashe et al. Noel From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Nov 13 14:05:41 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 21:05:41 +0100 Subject: Need VT-100 switch In-Reply-To: <39665.10.10.10.2.1504038352.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <34162.10.10.10.2.1504033451.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <20170829193822.GA31024@dbit.dbit.com> <39665.10.10.10.2.1504038352.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: I know that this an old thread, but I had another VT100 with broken power switch and so I dug up what I used to buy. This has quick connect tabs so it is needs no modifications to fit. It has a metal handle and feels quite sturdy. https://www.mouser.se/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=0virtualkey0virtualkeyST242D00 2017-08-29 22:25 GMT+02:00 E. Groenenberg via cctalk : > > Thanks for the info. > I'm in the Netherlands, so no Home Depot branch here, but now I have seen > the picture of the replacement I can look locally or check with > digikey/farnell to see what they have in their catalog of switches. > > Regards, > > Ed > -- > Ik email, dus ik besta. > > > On Tue, August 29, 2017 21:47, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > > I've replied to this and helped someone else out before as it seems to be > > a > > frequent question. > > > > I've replaced two VT-100 switches with chrome "bat" handle switches from > > Home Depot in Canada shown here: > > https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.t...000104171.html > > of-1cd.1000104171.html> > > The one at the USA Home Depot is here: > > https://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-Bender-20-Amp-Double- > Pole-Toggle-Switch-1-Pack-GSW-14/100149490 > > > > I had to remove the screws and filed the terminals down a little because > > the terminals were a little wider than the original connectors but it > > works > > like a charm and will not break. It is almost a direct replacement > (except > > for the terminals needing some filing). > > > > You can probably pick one up on the way home if you are in North America. > > > > Hope this helps. > > Santo > > > > On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 3:38 PM, John Wilson via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 09:04:11PM +0200, E. Groenenberg via cctalk > >> wrote: > >> >Does somebody maybe have a spare switch of a VT-100 (the one at the > >> back)? > >> > >> If you get stuck, there's a switch that's made as a replacement part for > >> Fender guitar amps which, apart from having a metal handle instead of > >> plastic, is a very close match to the VT100 power switch. Really it's > >> what DEC *should* have used ... > >> > >> John Wilson > >> D Bit > >> > > > > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Nov 13 15:10:54 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 13:10:54 -0800 Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies In-Reply-To: References: <630398405.326118.1510328716629.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <630398405.326118.1510328716629@mail.yahoo.com> <036f01d35a4a$4fd7f870$ef87e950$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52213501-1973-4EAA-92A1-8E4B77903014@shaw.ca> On 2017-Nov-10, at 12:37 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/nov/08/geoff-tootill-obituary >>> >>> I should point out there is a technical error in the Guardian. The Baby was the first Electronically Stored Program in what today we would call RAM. ENIAC had been configured in stored program mode earlier in the year and had run a program stored in the function switches, e.g. ROM a couple of months before baby. Despite the fact that when running stored programs ENIAC's parallel processing features were not available, it was exclusively in this mode from 1948 onwards. Note both machines are theoretically "Turing Complete" but having only 32 words of 32 bits the Baby was not of any practical use for a further 18 months whilst major surgery was carried out to add extra store and instructions to the machine leading the emergence of the Manchester MK1. >> Funny, I didn't see a "technical error" in the article. >> The best that can be said for your position is that you (and the ENIAC/Mauchlyite crowd) have a particular opinion and definition regarding 'stored-program computer'. > > Dave is correct. > > Perhaps he should have said "over simplification" rather than technical error. > > But what he wrote is well-documented. Tom Haigh and team of researchers explained the origins and varying definitions of "stored program" in their paper which you can freely read at http://eniacinaction.com/the-articles/1-reconsidering-the-stored-program-concept/. Tom, I'll point out, is British. And a team of researchers, eh? Wow. The Haigh, et al article (3 parts) does not disprove the Manchester Baby as the first stored-program machine, nor claim to do so. And it neither shows nor claims the 48 ENIAC to be the first stored-program machine. Well, it doesn't explicitly make the claims, but it is rather curious that people interpret it as doing so. Quote from the article [pg5]: Should ENIAC therefore be considered the first operational stored-program computer? Well, it all depends on what we mean by ?stored program.? Which is what I said earlier. The article proclaims a set of criteria they call the "modern code paradigm" and claims the 48 ENIAC as the first machine to have fulfilled their criteria. Quote [pg13]: As we explained earlier, we do not view the modern code paradigm as a new name for the ?stored program concept?. Using the article to make a claim vis-a-vis "stored program" for the 48 ENIAC as disproving the Baby's widely regarded status is conflating the "stored-program concept" with some other meaning of "stored program", or creating your own definition of "stored-program concept", and misrepresenting the (stated) claims of the article. > Thanks to their research, there is no longer any gray area. > ENIAC stored a program in what's now known as ROM, and very soon after the Baby stored a program in what's now known as RAM. > The timeline and facts are very clear. The Harvard Mark I stored programs, as a sequence of instructions recorded in a storage medium, and automatically executed them while reading from that medium, several years ahead of the 48 ENIAC, not to mention the conceptualisation of such for the Analytical Engine. That's not what you meant about storing a program? You mean you have other defining qualifiers? Harken yonder! I see grey clouds on the horizon. On 2017-Nov-10, at 6:16 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> From: Brent Hilpert > >> The best that can be said for your position is that you (and the >> ENIAC/Mauchlyite crowd) have a particular opinion and definition >> regarding 'stored-program computer'. > > I'm harly a member of the "ENIAC/Mauchlyite crowd" (in fact, I used to not > have a good impression of them at all), but I thought Haigh et al made a > pretty good case. The article (or the latter parts) are an interesting examination of the 48 ENIAC and it's programming. As a claim of historical consequence for the 48 ENIAC however, it's just too much contrivance. Here's an alternative abstract: We look at the etymology of the phrase "stored program" and decide it's all so confusing, so we dismiss all the previous historical assessments [pg8-11]. We note as others have that declaring firsts in history is problematic as it inevitably comes down to providing a string of qualifying descriptors [pg9]. To avoid these problems, we define a set of conceptual elements from the Draft Report on the EDVAC, to form a new set of criteria of assessment. We call this set of criteria the "modern code paradigm" [pg12]. We find that the 48 ENIAC fulfills our set of criteria. We now declare the 48 ENIAC to have been the first machine to fulfill the modern code paradigm [pg15]. (See page-long string of qualifying descriptors defining the modern code paradigm [pg12-13]). What about that little issue of writeable program storage? That little characteristic that is rather seminal to computing ever since 1946, and (previous) meanings of "stored-program" all included, but an element that the 48 ENIAC did not have ? That was dismissed because it wasn't used in the ways the Draft Report described it (to be) used. But it's also dismissed because the ways it did come to be used were NOT described in the Draft Report. [pg10-11] Meanwhile, other criteria were included even though they weren't done the way described in the Draft Report. What? And the 48 ENIAC wins ! Huh. What a coincidence. The authors could have just written an article about the 48 ENIAC with a comparison of it's programming characteristics to modern programming, but they just had to also attempt to dismiss the "stored-program concept" of historical relevance, while nonetheless leaving everyone they proselytise to conflating the "modern code paradigm" with "stored program". Yup, they sure did clear out all the confusion, not added to it. It's just another attempt to make an historical claim for the ENIAC, this time trying to steal the light away from the Manchester Baby. Sorry, no sale. I could go on but I have to pick up my newly tailored suit and a gallon of facts. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 13 16:00:03 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 17:00:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies Message-ID: <20171113220003.7E3E418C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > What about that little issue of writeable program storage? Just to clarify my understanding of your position, is a system with a CPU chip (say one of the 68K models) with only ROM not a 'stored program machine'? Noel PS: You really should look at the book ("ENIAC In Action"), and not rely on the articles; it's later, more coherent (not being split across a handful of papers), and much more detailed (e.g. it includes the instruction set for the 'programmed' version of the ENIAC). From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Nov 13 10:01:49 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 11:01:49 -0500 Subject: DS12887 pcb substitute with battery In-Reply-To: References: <16ia5tihh85q34m2de3g11ib.1485109250088@email.android.com> <8050eb1b-2a2c-2477-cbf5-4a9bdd518cce@verizon.net> Message-ID: Good stuff! I recently designed a module to build new DS1287 and DS12887 modules from the bare DS1285 and DS12885 ICs: https://imgur.com/a/cgKm5 Just did a small run of 100 boards with the GW-12887-1 part number (they of course work with the DS1285, though the number would be misleading). It uses a 1225 cell as did the original, though the life of the original was supposedly boosted by the potting not allowing the cell to evaporate as much electrolyte through its (presumably imperfect) seal. I've see another replacement that uses the surface mount version of the DS12885, but that module requires surface mount bits and solder-down IC legs, whereas my module just gets glued on top of the IC, and the appropriate legs bent up and soldered into the castellated holes. The motivation for the board was, as with yours, height restrictions. I did a similar repair board for MK48T02 and MK48T08 timekeeper NVRAMs as used on Sun systems -- there's an SBus slot directly over the NVRAM on some Sun machines, which prevents the "glue a battery on top" method from working. Thanks, Jonathan On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 7:44 PM, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Chuck, > > It's taken me a little while to respond to this one, however certain > matters do need time to develop. > > On Sun, 22 Jan 2017, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 01/22/2017 01:49 PM, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > > > > A problem with reworking is there is sometimes very little clearance > > > available, so any modification has to be made in a clever way or you > > > risk a short-circuit. For example in DECstation 5000 systems their > > > DS1287 chip is located in the TURBOchannel option slot area with the > > > top of the chip almost reaching the solder side of the PCB of any > > > option plugged in there. > > > > Although there are several illustrations of the DS1287 rework where a > > coin-cell holder was placed atop the chip, there's absolutely no reason > > why that has to be so. A couple of wire leads away to an off-board > > battery holder, holding, say, an ER14250 half-AA.will work just fine and > > keep the battery away from the PCB--or a couple of alkaline AA cells, > > which should last a few years. No reason to stick to lithium. > > Yeah, putting the aesthetic of the solution aside, in the DECstation > there's the practical issue of making sure the wires do not obstruct > shuffling TURBOchannel option cards and also finding a place where the > substitute battery does not disturb the airflow such as to cause a > component somewhere to overheat -- the whole side of the enclosure is a > grille. > > > You know--"use your wetware". > > That always helps, as long as it's got enough input to process, in > particular as to what resources are available. > > Mine has got that now, thanks to this thread of discussion, where I > learnt of the existence of this small coin cell holder, and also the other > thread mentioning wire-wrap wire and its excellent properties for small > circuit repair/modification works. Naturally I picked up the green > insulation color to match what DEC used to use, at least in their > TURBOchannel equipment. :) > > So here: > are a couple photos of the result, meeting both the clearance requirements > and my subjective aesthetic criteria, and avoiding the issues I identified > above. > > Taking into account the rated DS1285's standby power consumption of 0.5?A > and the 35mAh 2.5V discharge level capacity of the CR1220 cell it will > guarantee keeping the chip powered for 8 years. Which I think is enough > given the ease to replace the cell now. > > For comparison the 48mAh capacity of the BR1225 cell originally embedded > in the chip allowed for 11 years of operation and the CR2032 cell people > seem to commonly choose allows for 50 years at its 220mAh capacity (which > I find a bit of an overkill). > > Note that I have calculated approximate cell capacities based on > discharge characteristic curves published by cell manufacturers, as the > rated capacities published are calculated for the 2.0V discharge level > whereas DS1285 is specified for 2.5V minimum battery voltage required for > correct operation. > > For the record, I have measured the clearance available and it's 0.1875" > (3/16") or 4.76mm from the top of the RTC chip to the bottom of the PCB of > a TURBOchannel option right above it. The TURBOchannel mechanical spec > allows for 0.075" (3/40") or 1.91mm underneath component or lead height > (e.g. 24-plane HX+ options have memory chips there). Which leaves 0.1125" > (9/80") or 2.86mm of space only. > > I may yet stick a piece of insulating tape on top of the RTC chip just to > make sure no contact happens by chance, though I think it might be an > overkill after all. It's not like the cell is going to pop out by itself. > > Maciej > From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Nov 13 14:57:13 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 12:57:13 -0800 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <20171113192357.3018818C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171113192357.3018818C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: What are you looking for ? Have you checked bitsavers http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/7090/ and the subdirectory http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/7090/ce/ for the 7094 there is even more detail http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/7094/ce/ -pete On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > So, I was trying to find info about the early IBM 709/7090/7094 computers, > but > when I went to what is supposedly the authoritative work on these computers > (among others): > > Charles J. Bashe, Lyle R. Johnson, John H. Palmer, Emerson W. Pugh, > "IBM's Early Computers", MIT Press, Cambridge, 1986 > > I discovered there was very little technical detail about these machines > there. > > Is there any other printed thing (yes, I know a few Web pages have some > content) that anyone knows of that covers them in more detail? (I have a > 709/7090/7094 programming thing coming, but that won't cover the internal > engineering.) > > Yes, I know, I could look at the engineering manuals, but I was hoping for > something in between them and Bashe et al. > > Noel > > From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Nov 13 16:01:01 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 17:01:01 -0500 Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies In-Reply-To: <52213501-1973-4EAA-92A1-8E4B77903014@shaw.ca> References: <630398405.326118.1510328716629.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <630398405.326118.1510328716629@mail.yahoo.com> <036f01d35a4a$4fd7f870$ef87e950$@gmail.com> <52213501-1973-4EAA-92A1-8E4B77903014@shaw.ca> Message-ID: > It's just another attempt to make an historical claim for the ENIAC, this time trying to steal the light away from the Manchester Baby. That's the dumbest thing I read today. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 13 16:47:46 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 17:47:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies Message-ID: <20171113224746.2685C18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Evan Koblentz > That's the dumbest thing I read today. And that helped... how? Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Nov 13 21:18:07 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 21:18:07 -0600 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <20171113192357.3018818C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171113192357.3018818C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5A0A606F.7080305@pico-systems.com> On 11/13/2017 01:23 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So, I was trying to find info about the early IBM 709/7090/7094 computers, but > when I went to what is supposedly the authoritative work on these computers > (among others): > > Charles J. Bashe, Lyle R. Johnson, John H. Palmer, Emerson W. Pugh, > "IBM's Early Computers", MIT Press, Cambridge, 1986 > > I discovered there was very little technical detail about these machines > there. Bitsavers has a LOT of technical manuals on the 7090 and 7094. I think there are about 16 manuals for the 7094, even more on the 7090. See : http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/7090/ and http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/7094/ Yes, there is very little on the 709. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 13 21:32:03 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:32:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers Message-ID: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Please, everyone, I do actually know of BitSavers; you don't need to point me at it. When I said: >> I could look at the engineering manuals, but I was hoping for something >> in between them and Bashe et al. I assumed everyone would understand that by "engineering manuals", I was meaning the kind of things one finds in BitSavers. Noel From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Mon Nov 13 21:52:20 2017 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:52:20 -0500 Subject: ModComp II on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 1:06 PM, william degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Ebay item 272914490265 > > This is a ModComp IIC I think. It's all broken up in parts and half > assembled. > That's an incredibly bad set of pictures. I can't tell if it is really disassembled or if they just did not photograph it in any meaningful way. It looks like there are at least 3 cabinets. Main CPU, standalone disk drive, tape drive. I wonder if there was a card reader or any other peripherals. The boards look like they pull out from the system chassis horizontally, rather than vertically like my ModComp does. That just seems weird - as it would be impossible to separate the accordion style board assembly in that orientation. Again, maybe just really bad photography. The slanted console of the first photo makes me think this suffered a serious drop at some point. There is a lot of corrosion on the boards. > I don't think new it was barely $18,000 though Well, that was ~$64K today, so you can't really compare. I don't see to many of them, so it might win price points for rarity. > but some day, maybe the > seller will give up and put up a realistic price. Who knows what's in it > exactly but generally it looks like a communications model with a 7 or 9 > track tape unit. The tty controller board makes me want to agree there. > The point of ModComp was to build custom systems but if > the info on this system does not exist on BitSavers, let me know and I will > scan some docs. I have info on the part numbers from the photos. > I have a full doc set for our ModComp II, but many of the things are different, so YMMV. > The ModComp docs talk about IBM system emulation vs. DEC, so think along > those lines more so, this is *not* a DataGeneral / DEC me-too despite > looking a little like a PDP 8i > > BIll > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Nov 13 23:11:34 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 23:11:34 -0600 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5A0A7B06.2000608@pico-systems.com> On 11/13/2017 09:32 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Please, everyone, I do actually know of BitSavers; you don't need to point me > at it. > > When I said: > > >> I could look at the engineering manuals, but I was hoping for something > >> in between them and Bashe et al. > > I assumed everyone would understand that by "engineering manuals", I was > meaning the kind of things one finds in BitSavers. > > Well, I just happened to be looking at some stuff there today, and was reading a manual with the 7094 instruction set laid out in excruciating detail. So, I'm not talking about deciphering the schematics, this was the programming guide for that model. I thought that was what you were looking for. Jon From wsudol at scng.com Mon Nov 13 17:28:48 2017 From: wsudol at scng.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 15:28:48 -0800 Subject: Teletype's for Auction Message-ID: For those who want/collect Teletype's, Here's 2 links to auctions. One is a pallet of pretty old stuff just labeled 'Teletype Machines' located in Dayton, Ohio https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/thompson-auctioneers/catalogue-id-bsctho10294/lot-43d37ad6-6275-4d3d-ab3e-a82401441012 The other one says Teletype mdl. 43 Data Terminal and Computer w/ Desk This is in South San Francisco and has some other stuff with it. https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/american-auctioneers-group/catalogue-id-bscam10433/lot-18ef9c7e-f676-4564-b1e7-a82400ec1a2a Disclaimer, i have no affiliation to either site. In case the links don't go through, I found them through the "Bidspotter" site searching for "Teletype" https://www.bidspotter.com/ Wayne Sudol Riverside PressEnterprise A DigitalFirst Media Newspaper. From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Nov 14 00:10:59 2017 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 01:10:59 -0500 Subject: Teletype's for Auction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15fb926ecd8-c08-1517c@webjas-vad138.srv.aolmail.net> first one looks like a lot of Frieden flexowriters... not teletype gear. Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Monday, November 13, 2017 Wayne Sudol via cctalk wrote: For those who want/collect Teletype's, Here's 2 links to auctions. One is a pallet of pretty old stuff just labeled 'Teletype Machines' located in Dayton, Ohio https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/thompson-auctioneers/catalogue-id-bsctho10294/lot-43d37ad6-6275-4d3d-ab3e-a82401441012 The other one says Teletype mdl. 43 Data Terminal and Computer w/ Desk This is in South San Francisco and has some other stuff with it. https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/american-auctioneers-group/catalogue-id-bscam10433/lot-18ef9c7e-f676-4564-b1e7-a82400ec1a2a Disclaimer, i have no affiliation to either site. In case the links don't go through, I found them through the "Bidspotter" site searching for "Teletype" https://www.bidspotter.com/ Wayne Sudol Riverside PressEnterprise A DigitalFirst Media Newspaper. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Nov 14 00:13:57 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:13:57 -0800 Subject: ModComp II on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/13/2017 7:52 PM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > That's an incredibly bad set of pictures. The system gave me the impression it was built up with transistors. Any possibility of that?? I don't know the history of the Modcomps to speculate, but that might put it out of the range of what Al's put up on the Modcomps.? The ones I knew of dated to being TTL level gate chips, rather than component, like the 8s or straight 8, and some logic in the 8I Unless the guy thinks there is someone with a hardon for that Modcomp, and there may well be, it is an incredibly bad listing for an asking price of $18,000.? And by doing that, rather than a ridiculous reserve, people who might buy will stay away, defeating the purpose of such a listing to gather interested buyers, and take up with them around ebay. the 8/I I bought was listed very high, but I eventually got the system for a reasonable price, including having it delivered by the seller, which is how such an exercise should work. thanks Jim From pbirkel at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 01:52:15 2017 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 02:52:15 -0500 Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies In-Reply-To: <20171113220003.7E3E418C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171113220003.7E3E418C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0b6401d35d1d$7d350da0$779f28e0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 5:00 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Computing Pioneer Dies > From: Brent Hilpert > What about that little issue of writeable program storage? Just to clarify my understanding of your position, is a system with a CPU chip (say one of the 68K models) with only ROM not a 'stored program machine'? Noel PS: You really should look at the book ("ENIAC In Action"), and not rely on the articles; it's later, more coherent (not being split across a handful of papers), and much more detailed (e.g. it includes the instruction set for the 'programmed' version of the ENIAC). ----- Note that most of the BRL references in the three articles in the IEEE Annals of the History of Computing are available online through DTIC. Search using Google Scholar. Unfortunately the referenced manuscripts located in private archives appear to remain inaccessible to the general public. Tables I thru III in the second paper, offering a set of side-by-side comparisons for "ENIAC, EDVAC, and three other computers of the late 1940s" are well worth contemplation. The third paper puts a practical perspective on the somewhat more theoretical perspectives of the first two papers. "1948 ENIAC" was a quite interesting reorganization/application of the computing resources available in the "1945 ENIAC". It looks like the somewhat less expensive paperback for "ENIAC in Action" is due for publication in January. Noel: Does the book make any attempt to trace any technological/social effects *from* the "1948 ENIAC" to other computer developments? Or are we to conclude that the "1948 ENIAC" was aa significant "existence proof" for aspects of the First Report (and evidently quite productive as a computational tool) but sterile with respect to direct progenitors and impact on other computer developments of the late-1940's? For example, do they cite any evidence that either BINAC or early UNIVAC were other than "from whole cloth" in nature? Any of the "IACs"? Perhaps more at the level of "coding style/procedures" than hardware architecture/design/implementation? As an engineer, I like systems that "get stuff done" and the "1948 ENIAC" certainly qualifies. As a (computer) scientist I like what SSEM demonstrated and the fact that it had direct (physical & intellectual) offspring. As a practical person I like that the SSEM directly led to the "first general-purpose commercially produced computer" (Ferranti Mark 1). There's a lot to like in the span of 1945-1955! ----- paul From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Tue Nov 14 02:52:40 2017 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 09:52:40 +0100 Subject: IBM 2501 + doc + spares available in EU. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Henk, I sent you an email, did you receive it? Camiel On 11/12/17, 10:48 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Henk Stegeman via cctalk" wrote: > >Hi, > >Available in the Netherlands a compleet IBM 2501 punch card reader with >all >IBM documentation and spares from a scrapped unit. > >Please contact me off-line if interrested. > >h.j.stegeman at hccnet dot nl. > >Regards > From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Tue Nov 14 03:01:26 2017 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 10:01:26 +0100 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Have you really looked at everything that is on Bitsavers? It?s much more than just the engineering manuals. If I may offer a suggestion, have a look at this document and see if it fits your needs: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/7090/ce/223-6895-1_7090_CE_Reference_Syste m_Fundamentals_7100_7151_7606_Sep61.pdf Camiel On 11/14/17, 4:32 AM, "cctech on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctech" wrote: >Please, everyone, I do actually know of BitSavers; you don't need to >point me >at it. > >When I said: > > >> I could look at the engineering manuals, but I was hoping for >something > >> in between them and Bashe et al. > >I assumed everyone would understand that by "engineering manuals", I was >meaning the kind of things one finds in BitSavers. > > Noel From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Tue Nov 14 03:01:26 2017 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 10:01:26 +0100 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Have you really looked at everything that is on Bitsavers? It?s much more than just the engineering manuals. If I may offer a suggestion, have a look at this document and see if it fits your needs: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/7090/ce/223-6895-1_7090_CE_Reference_Syste m_Fundamentals_7100_7151_7606_Sep61.pdf Camiel On 11/14/17, 4:32 AM, "cctech on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctech" wrote: >Please, everyone, I do actually know of BitSavers; you don't need to >point me >at it. > >When I said: > > >> I could look at the engineering manuals, but I was hoping for >something > >> in between them and Bashe et al. > >I assumed everyone would understand that by "engineering manuals", I was >meaning the kind of things one finds in BitSavers. > > Noel From pbirkel at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 03:40:53 2017 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 04:40:53 -0500 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> Wonderful document. Thank you IBM Customer Engineering! -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 4:01 AM To: Noel Chiappa; cctech; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers Have you really looked at everything that is on Bitsavers? It?s much more than just the engineering manuals. If I may offer a suggestion, have a look at this document and see if it fits your needs: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/7090/ce/223-6895-1_7090_CE_Reference_System _Fundamentals_7100_7151_7606_Sep61.pdf Camiel On 11/14/17, 4:32 AM, "cctech on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctech" wrote: >Please, everyone, I do actually know of BitSavers; you don't need to >point me >at it. > >When I said: > > >> I could look at the engineering manuals, but I was hoping for something > >> in between them and Bashe et al. > >I assumed everyone would understand that by "engineering manuals", I was >meaning the kind of things one finds in BitSavers. > > Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 08:16:26 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 09:16:26 -0500 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Following top post of this reply... There is a doc called 709-7090 General Information Manual D22-6508, which I don't see in bitsavers (I don't have). The operator's guide for 7090 Data Processing System is A22-6535 is on bitsavers, but that's not going to help you much. The big hole in the bitsavers collection for the 709-7090 is A22-6503, the 709-7090 Data Processing System Reference Manual. It's kind of like Gordon Bell's book with a combination of hardware and programming to explain how the system works. I think that's what you want. Maybe someone has a copy of this? If not I can scan mine. My 7090 is out for repairs anyway so I don't need it at the moment. Those repair guys don't move as fast as they used to. Most of the rest of the docs I have related to 709-7090 are Fortran related. On the back pages of the 709/7090 Data Processing System Bulletins you'll find a bibliography of all 709-7090 publications and their titles. Bill On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 4:40 AM, Paul Birkel via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Wonderful document. Thank you IBM Customer Engineering! > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Camiel > Vanderhoeven via cctech > Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 4:01 AM > To: Noel Chiappa; cctech; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers > > Have you really looked at everything that is on Bitsavers? It?s much more > than just the engineering manuals. If I may offer a suggestion, have a > look at this document and see if it fits your needs: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/7090/ce/223-6895-1_7090_ > CE_Reference_System > _Fundamentals_7100_7151_7606_Sep61.pdf > > Camiel > > On 11/14/17, 4:32 AM, "cctech on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctech" > wrote: > > >Please, everyone, I do actually know of BitSavers; you don't need to > >point me > >at it. > > > >When I said: > > > > >> I could look at the engineering manuals, but I was hoping for > something > > >> in between them and Bashe et al. > > > >I assumed everyone would understand that by "engineering manuals", I was > >meaning the kind of things one finds in BitSavers. > > > > Noel > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 08:26:18 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 09:26:18 -0500 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Speaking of "Computer Structures Reading and Examples" by Bell and Newell, chapter 41 has a section about the 7094 I, II. Start from page 515 to read about the 701-7094 II sequence/evolution Bill On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 9:16 AM, william degnan wrote: > Following top post of this reply... > > There is a doc called 709-7090 General Information Manual D22-6508, which > I don't see in bitsavers (I don't have). The operator's guide for 7090 > Data Processing System is A22-6535 is on bitsavers, but that's not going to > help you much. The big hole in the bitsavers collection for the 709-7090 > is A22-6503, the 709-7090 Data Processing System Reference Manual. It's > kind of like Gordon Bell's book with a combination of hardware and > programming to explain how the system works. I think that's what you > want. > > Maybe someone has a copy of this? If not I can scan mine. My 7090 is out > for repairs anyway so I don't need it at the moment. Those repair guys > don't move as fast as they used to. > > Most of the rest of the docs I have related to 709-7090 are Fortran > related. > > On the back pages of the 709/7090 Data Processing System Bulletins you'll > find a bibliography of all 709-7090 publications and their titles. > > Bill > > > On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 4:40 AM, Paul Birkel via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Wonderful document. Thank you IBM Customer Engineering! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Camiel >> Vanderhoeven via cctech >> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 4:01 AM >> To: Noel Chiappa; cctech; cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers >> >> Have you really looked at everything that is on Bitsavers? It?s much more >> than just the engineering manuals. If I may offer a suggestion, have a >> look at this document and see if it fits your needs: >> >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/7090/ce/223-6895-1_7090_CE_ >> Reference_System >> _Fundamentals_7100_7151_7606_Sep61.pdf >> >> >> Camiel >> >> On 11/14/17, 4:32 AM, "cctech on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctech" >> wrote: >> >> >Please, everyone, I do actually know of BitSavers; you don't need to >> >point me >> >at it. >> > >> >When I said: >> > >> > >> I could look at the engineering manuals, but I was hoping for >> something >> > >> in between them and Bashe et al. >> > >> >I assumed everyone would understand that by "engineering manuals", I was >> >meaning the kind of things one finds in BitSavers. >> > >> > Noel >> >> >> > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 14 09:30:48 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 15:30:48 +0000 Subject: Computing Pioneer Dies In-Reply-To: <0b6401d35d1d$7d350da0$779f28e0$@gmail.com> References: <20171113220003.7E3E418C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <0b6401d35d1d$7d350da0$779f28e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: It was interesting, going looking at some of the youtube videos from some of the inventors. It seems that the only reason it didn't have a machine writable program memory was cost. It had the ability to do conditional flow and used an instruction decoder. Previous computers were patched pieces like counters, adders, inverters and constants. Flow control was done with counters and data was passed to the next patch. RAM was just becoming available with things like the William's tube. Otherwise RAM was a number of flipflops made with vacuum tubes. At two triodes per latch the cost per bit was quite high. A diode ROM array made sense. The concept was there, only the implementation was different. I was like that two with the thought of how the program was loaded but when one considers the leap from a number of patched elements to a cpu, the ability to have RAM loadable wasn't as relevant until until they got away from the Manchester architecture. Dwight Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Birkel via cctalk Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 11:52:15 PM To: 'Noel Chiappa'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Computing Pioneer Dies -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 5:00 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Computing Pioneer Dies > From: Brent Hilpert > What about that little issue of writeable program storage? Just to clarify my understanding of your position, is a system with a CPU chip (say one of the 68K models) with only ROM not a 'stored program machine'? Noel PS: You really should look at the book ("ENIAC In Action"), and not rely on the articles; it's later, more coherent (not being split across a handful of papers), and much more detailed (e.g. it includes the instruction set for the 'programmed' version of the ENIAC). ----- Note that most of the BRL references in the three articles in the IEEE Annals of the History of Computing are available online through DTIC. Search using Google Scholar. Unfortunately the referenced manuscripts located in private archives appear to remain inaccessible to the general public. Tables I thru III in the second paper, offering a set of side-by-side comparisons for "ENIAC, EDVAC, and three other computers of the late 1940s" are well worth contemplation. The third paper puts a practical perspective on the somewhat more theoretical perspectives of the first two papers. "1948 ENIAC" was a quite interesting reorganization/application of the computing resources available in the "1945 ENIAC". It looks like the somewhat less expensive paperback for "ENIAC in Action" is due for publication in January. Noel: Does the book make any attempt to trace any technological/social effects *from* the "1948 ENIAC" to other computer developments? Or are we to conclude that the "1948 ENIAC" was aa significant "existence proof" for aspects of the First Report (and evidently quite productive as a computational tool) but sterile with respect to direct progenitors and impact on other computer developments of the late-1940's? For example, do they cite any evidence that either BINAC or early UNIVAC were other than "from whole cloth" in nature? Any of the "IACs"? Perhaps more at the level of "coding style/procedures" than hardware architecture/design/implementation? As an engineer, I like systems that "get stuff done" and the "1948 ENIAC" certainly qualifies. As a (computer) scientist I like what SSEM demonstrated and the fact that it had direct (physical & intellectual) offspring. As a practical person I like that the SSEM directly led to the "first general-purpose commercially produced computer" (Ferranti Mark 1). There's a lot to like in the span of 1945-1955! ----- paul From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 14 09:53:26 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 07:53:26 -0800 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/14/17 6:16 AM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > Following top post of this reply... > > There is a doc called 709-7090 General Information Manual D22-6508, which I > don't see in bitsavers (I don't have). we have it http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102663993 I'll see about getting it scanned From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 10:18:15 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 11:18:15 -0500 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 10:53 AM, Al Kossow via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 11/14/17 6:16 AM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Following top post of this reply... > > > > There is a doc called 709-7090 General Information Manual D22-6508, > which I > > don't see in bitsavers (I don't have). > > we have it > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102663993 > > I'll see about getting it scanned > > > Here is the manual Noel wants, under a different name than the IBM part number - problem solved. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/7090/22-6528-4_7090Manual.pdf Bill From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 14 11:20:45 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 09:20:45 -0800 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's always struck me how revolutionary (for IBM) the change in architecture from the 700x to the S/360 was. The 709x will probably strike the average reader of today as being arcane, what with sign-magnitude representation, subtractive index registers and so on. The 7080, probably even more so. But then, most of IBM's hardware before S/360 had its quirky side; the only exception I can think of, offhand, would be the 1130, which was introduced at about the same time as the S/360. The S/360 was a breath of fresh air for IBM. --Chuck Sent from my digital computer From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Tue Nov 14 16:40:17 2017 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 23:40:17 +0100 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <32cad10a-4dbf-0d35-3dc1-4cafdee302ea@ljw.me.uk> On 14/11/17 18:20, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > It's always struck me how revolutionary (for IBM) the change in > architecture from the 700x to the S/360 was. The 709x will probably > strike the average reader of today as being arcane, what with > sign-magnitude representation, subtractive index registers and so on. > The 7080, probably even more so. But then, most of IBM's hardware > before S/360 had its quirky side; the only exception I can think of, > offhand, would be the 1130, which was introduced at about the same time > as the S/360. I think the 360 marked the change from hardware-driven development to software-driven. The 'arcane' architectures would have maximised performance for a given amount of hardware, and programmers were relatively cheap. But the 360 reversed that, hardware was now cheap and didn't need to work at 100% efficiency, but software development was expensive so writing and re-writing needed to be minimised. > The S/360 was a breath of fresh air for IBM. Which is why it's still around today, even if the name has changed. > > --Chuck > > Sent from my digital computer > -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 pagehttp://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From brain at jbrain.com Tue Nov 14 17:20:55 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 17:20:55 -0600 Subject: Need help with an odd design construct Message-ID: <4c3547a8-5e9d-3ed4-d76b-ff17051df026@jbrain.com> Having picked up one of these little TI Compact Computer-40 (cc40) units over the Summer, I thought I'd work on reverse engineering a RAM cartridge for the unit. As shown on this forum: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/255728-the-compact-computer-40-cc40/?p=3890516 The design *appears* to havea? "floating" ground when powered off battery alone.? The cartrridge edge connector has 2 grounds.? I didn't think anything about them at first, assuming they were connected to each other. Hwoever, someone with a RAM cart is helping me reverse engineer, and it appears pin 1 ground is connected to the RAM GND pin, but is connected via a 6K8 resistor to the 3V battery ground, which is connected to pin 27 ground line. I *assume* this means that, once the cart is pulled, the battery voltage sits somewhere in the middle of the 5V swing the RAM needs to see, but I can;t figure out how one calculates the voltage divider value for the inherent resistance of an SRAM, as the 3V is sent through a germanium diode (bringing the effective Vcc of the SRAM to 2.7V), and then SRAM ground is sent through the 6K8 to battery ground. Obviously, reverse engineering being fraught with errors, we could be wrong, but assuming not, what is going on in this circuit, and how does one calculate the effective potential of the GND pin of the SRAM? Pics: http://www.go4retro.com/downloads/CC40RAM/ Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 14 17:56:31 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 15:56:31 -0800 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive Message-ID: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> I just got my HP-85 working for the first time over the weekend (except for its tape drive, which is still a work in progress). I'd like to acquire some accessories for it: 1) HP 82903A 16k RAM module 2) HP 9122C dual 1.44M 3.2" floppy diskette drive Do any of y'all have either of those items available for swap or sale? I'm located in southern California. Those two items are at the top of my HP-85 want list, but I might also be interested in other related bits such as the 82940A GPIO Interface, other compatible HPIB mass storage, etc. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Nov 14 18:32:54 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 16:32:54 -0800 Subject: Need help with an odd design construct In-Reply-To: <4c3547a8-5e9d-3ed4-d76b-ff17051df026@jbrain.com> References: <4c3547a8-5e9d-3ed4-d76b-ff17051df026@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <63F1DD68-E6B5-4206-BF41-51B30520899F@shaw.ca> On 2017-Nov-14, at 3:20 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Having picked up one of these little TI Compact Computer-40 (cc40) units over the Summer, I thought I'd work on reverse engineering a RAM cartridge for the unit. > > As shown on this forum: > > http://atariage.com/forums/topic/255728-the-compact-computer-40-cc40/?p=3890516 > > The design *appears* to havea "floating" ground when powered off battery alone. The cartrridge edge connector has 2 grounds. I didn't think anything about them at first, assuming they were connected to each other. > > Hwoever, someone with a RAM cart is helping me reverse engineer, and it appears pin 1 ground is connected to the RAM GND pin, but is connected via a 6K8 resistor to the 3V battery ground, which is connected to pin 27 ground line. > > I *assume* this means that, once the cart is pulled, the battery voltage sits somewhere in the middle of the 5V swing the RAM needs to see, but I can;t figure out how one calculates the voltage divider value for the inherent resistance of an SRAM, as the 3V is sent through a germanium diode (bringing the effective Vcc of the SRAM to 2.7V), and then SRAM ground is sent through the 6K8 to battery ground. > > Obviously, reverse engineering being fraught with errors, we could be wrong, but assuming not, what is going on in this circuit, and how does one calculate the effective potential of the GND pin of the SRAM? > > Pics: > > http://www.go4retro.com/downloads/CC40RAM/ Once the cart is pulled the 4008 chip should end up in standby mode - no enables asserted. In standby a CMOS chip like this will appear as a near infinite impedance, so there isn't much voltage dividing going on with a 6.8K R. The full battery voltage (minus epsilon) will be across the chip. The datasheet specs standby current Isb1 at typically 4 uA (50 max). Ohm's law will get you an idea of the effective resistance of the chip if you really want to calculate what epsilon is here. CMOS memory doesn't require current to hold it's state, just the voltage potential. Kind of like a tire holding it's shape just with air pressure (potential differential to the outside air), it doesn't require air flow or power to hold up. As with the tire however, there is leakage, which is what would constitute Isb1. From my own measurements with some CMOS chip holding config in some equipment, Vcc can typically drop pretty low in standby and still hold state. Why the circuit might be as you have it with the 6.8K I'm not sure, perhaps for some current limiting or glitch suppression as the cart is pulled out/in. Doesn't really matter much as the only other thing on that gnd side is the switches. Those 4 10K resistors are kind of weird, each 'on' switch is chewing up orders of magnitude more battery current than the chip, might make more sense if they went to Vcc where they would be diode blocked when the cart is on battery. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Nov 14 18:51:21 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 18:51:21 -0600 Subject: Need help with an odd design construct In-Reply-To: <63F1DD68-E6B5-4206-BF41-51B30520899F@shaw.ca> References: <4c3547a8-5e9d-3ed4-d76b-ff17051df026@jbrain.com> <63F1DD68-E6B5-4206-BF41-51B30520899F@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <7a2d45bd-754c-b9f9-a2b0-70a7acf4fad4@jbrain.com> On 11/14/2017 6:32 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > Once the cart is pulled the 4008 chip should end up in standby mode - no enables asserted. The 3K3 ties both !CROM and !CRAM high, and they are both open collector outputs on the port. But, I forgot to put one important detail in the original note.? I so apologize.? The original cart has a HM62256LP-12, but it is evident from the traces being cut on the cart that this was not even the original SRAM.? I do believe the original SRAM was 32kB in size, though. SInce the original SRAM was not even original, I replaced with the '4008 for various reasons. > > In standby a CMOS chip like this will appear as a near infinite impedance, so there isn't much voltage dividing going on with a 6.8K R. > The full battery voltage (minus epsilon) will be across the chip. Then, why do the 6K8 there? > > The datasheet specs standby current Isb1 at typically 4 uA (50 max). > Ohm's law will get you an idea of the effective resistance of the chip if you really want to calculate what epsilon is here. I'll try and calculate it for the HM62256LP, which seems to be .5mA under no load: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/97905.pdf (2.7/.0005) = 5K4???? That seems incomplete, like I need to also take into account that .5mA flows through the 6800 resistor, but that means (6800*.0005) = 3.4V, which can't be right. If I put that into a Voltage Divider (2.7V Vih, R1 = 5400, R2 = 6800, output is 1.5V, implying the GND line is at 1.5V relative to the battery... > > > Why the circuit might be as you have it with the 6.8K I'm not sure, perhaps for some current limiting or glitch suppression as the cart is pulled out/in. > Doesn't really matter much as the only other thing on that gnd side is the switches. And they aren't there on the original. > > Those 4 10K resistors are kind of weird, each 'on' switch is chewing up orders of magnitude more battery current than the chip, Good point.? I copied the design from the "ROM cart" schematic, where the battery is not in place, and the switches were there to choose the bank of 32K that would be visible in the address space. I should reconsider the schematic, and... > might make more sense if they went to Vcc where they would be diode blocked when the cart is on battery. > > Excellent suggestion.? I will do so. -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 19:24:18 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 20:24:18 -0500 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: Can you use one of those with the old IBM PC IEEE interface card?. Has this been covered here? I did not check but I guess the answer would be maybe. Those drives are 720 each 3.5". Bill On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I just got my HP-85 working for the first time over the weekend (except > for its tape drive, which is still a work in progress). I'd like to acquire > some accessories for it: > > 1) HP 82903A 16k RAM module > > 2) HP 9122C dual 1.44M 3.2" floppy diskette drive > > Do any of y'all have either of those items available for swap or sale? I'm > located in southern California. > > Those two items are at the top of my HP-85 want list, but I might also be > interested in other related bits such as the 82940A GPIO Interface, other > compatible HPIB mass storage, etc. > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 14 19:39:55 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 17:39:55 -0800 Subject: NOS TK70 carts available In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <04435278-c703-02db-d64b-be203999fea0@sydex.com> Just passing this along in case someone needs a bunch of TK70 cartridges: ITEM Description Qty TK52-K 70 Digital Compactape II - 95/296MB 136 These are new/sealed. email Sandy at pebz *at* cybertrails.com with your needs for a quote. Disclaimer: I'm just passing this along--I have no relationship with the seller. --Chuck From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 19:58:56 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 21:58:56 -0400 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <0f890a92-ea25-2cc8-7595-0ee5e32a6860@gmail.com> If your old IBM PC IEEE 488 card is one that is compatible with HPDrive http://hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ you can use it to emulate a wide variety of HPIB storage several of which are compatible with the 80 series machines.? I am using the Linux version on a Pentium II based industrial computer with ISA National Instruments cards and it out performs a real 9135C by quite a bit. Paul. On 2017-11-14 9:24 PM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > Can you use one of those with the old IBM PC IEEE interface card?. Has > this been covered here? I did not check but I guess the answer would be > maybe. Those drives are 720 each 3.5". > Bill > > On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I just got my HP-85 working for the first time over the weekend (except >> for its tape drive, which is still a work in progress). I'd like to acquire >> some accessories for it: >> >> 1) HP 82903A 16k RAM module >> >> 2) HP 9122C dual 1.44M 3.2" floppy diskette drive >> >> Do any of y'all have either of those items available for swap or sale? I'm >> located in southern California. >> >> Those two items are at the top of my HP-85 want list, but I might also be >> interested in other related bits such as the 82940A GPIO Interface, other >> compatible HPIB mass storage, etc. >> >> -- >> Mark J. Blair, NF6X >> http://www.nf6x.net/ >> >> From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 14 20:16:55 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 18:16:55 -0800 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > On Nov 14, 2017, at 5:24 PM, william degnan wrote: > > Those drives are 720 each 3.5". No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5" drive units with either 360k or 720k drive capacities. I don't have a compatible IEEE-488 card for use with the HPDrive software. I'm curious about the open source hp85disk project, and might build hardware to work with it sometime. In any case, I'm interested in getting a 9122C drive. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Nov 14 20:29:47 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 18:29:47 -0800 Subject: Need help with an odd design construct In-Reply-To: <7a2d45bd-754c-b9f9-a2b0-70a7acf4fad4@jbrain.com> References: <4c3547a8-5e9d-3ed4-d76b-ff17051df026@jbrain.com> <63F1DD68-E6B5-4206-BF41-51B30520899F@shaw.ca> <7a2d45bd-754c-b9f9-a2b0-70a7acf4fad4@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <1D04F50D-40F0-40EC-B7F0-BF7F529AFCE4@shaw.ca> On 2017-Nov-14, at 4:51 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 11/14/2017 6:32 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> >> Once the cart is pulled the 4008 chip should end up in standby mode - no enables asserted. > The 3K3 ties both !CROM and !CRAM high, and they are both open collector outputs on the port. > > But, I forgot to put one important detail in the original note. I so apologize. The original cart has a HM62256LP-12, but it is evident from the traces being cut on the cart that this was not even the original SRAM. I do believe the original SRAM was 32kB in size, though. > > SInce the original SRAM was not even original, I replaced with the '4008 for various reasons. >> >> In standby a CMOS chip like this will appear as a near infinite impedance, so there isn't much voltage dividing going on with a 6.8K R. >> The full battery voltage (minus epsilon) will be across the chip. > Then, why do the 6K8 there? >> >> The datasheet specs standby current Isb1 at typically 4 uA (50 max). >> Ohm's law will get you an idea of the effective resistance of the chip if you really want to calculate what epsilon is here. > I'll try and calculate it for the HM62256LP, which seems to be .5mA under no load: > > http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/97905.pdf > > (2.7/.0005) = 5K4? That seems incomplete, like I need to also take into account that .5mA flows through the 6800 resistor, but that means (6800*.0005) = 3.4V, which can't be right. > > If I put that into a Voltage Divider (2.7V Vih, R1 = 5400, R2 = 6800, output is 1.5V, implying the GND line is at 1.5V relative to the battery... >> >> >> Why the circuit might be as you have it with the 6.8K I'm not sure, perhaps for some current limiting or glitch suppression as the cart is pulled out/in. >> Doesn't really matter much as the only other thing on that gnd side is the switches. > And they aren't there on the original. >> >> Those 4 10K resistors are kind of weird, each 'on' switch is chewing up orders of magnitude more battery current than the chip, > Good point. I copied the design from the "ROM cart" schematic, where the battery is not in place, and the switches were there to choose the bank of 32K that would be visible in the address space. I should reconsider the schematic, and... >> might make more sense if they went to Vcc where they would be diode blocked when the cart is on battery. >> >> > Excellent suggestion. I will do so. With the 62256 drawing consequential standby current, you can't ensure an accurate calculated value for the voltage division from specs as the chip current probably isn't a linear relation to Vcc. But going from what we have: Isb @ 5V Vcc = 0.5ma then chip R = 5V / 0.0005A = 10 Kohms 2.7V Vbatt * 10000 / (10000+6800) = 1.6V across the chip supply pins. But from the datasheet it also looks like Isb goes down considerably (40uA) if the voltage on nCS approaches Vcc and other inputs pins go to 0V, as it might/would/should with the cart pulled. That would be a higher effective R for the chip and so a higher V supply for the chip. There is another potential problem with those switches though, it's not clear to me whether you resolved whether X1P pins 1 & 27 connect together when plugged into the computer. If not, then when plugged in and operational, the switch 10K Rs form a varying voltage divider with the 6.8K and the input levels on bank-select address pins would be all over the place. I would suggest you redraw the schematic with GND as the chip/computer GND rather than establishing a second GND, and have a bus line across the bottom for the battery negative. If you move the switches R supply it may be a good idea to put another diode in series to give a similar V drop as the main supply diode so the V on the bank address pins doesn't go above the chip Vcc. I'm not clear on what all is going on there between original design and modifications and additions. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 20:35:19 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 22:35:19 -0400 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5464d538-6fd7-fd30-3cd2-df8e45a92547@gmail.com> Well I do have a surplus 9122C however only one drive works and I am on the other side of the continent. Paul. On 2017-11-14 10:16 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: >> On Nov 14, 2017, at 5:24 PM, william degnan wrote: >> >> Those drives are 720 each 3.5". > No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5" drive units with either 360k or 720k drive capacities. > > I don't have a compatible IEEE-488 card for use with the HPDrive software. I'm curious about the open source hp85disk project, and might build hardware to work with it sometime. In any case, I'm interested in getting a 9122C drive. > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 14 20:50:03 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 18:50:03 -0800 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <5464d538-6fd7-fd30-3cd2-df8e45a92547@gmail.com> References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> <5464d538-6fd7-fd30-3cd2-df8e45a92547@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 14, 2017, at 6:35 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > Well I do have a surplus 9122C however only one drive works and I am on the other side of the continent. Hmm, I'll consider yours if a more workinger one doesn't appear. That locational thing can be solved if you're willing to pack and ship. Do you have any idea what might be wrong with the second drive? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 14 21:10:58 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 20:10:58 -0700 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <32cad10a-4dbf-0d35-3dc1-4cafdee302ea@ljw.me.uk> References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> <32cad10a-4dbf-0d35-3dc1-4cafdee302ea@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: > I think the 360 marked the change from hardware-driven development to > software-driven. The 'arcane' architectures would have maximised > performance for a given amount of hardware, and programmers were > relatively cheap. But the 360 reversed that, hardware was now cheap > and didn't need to work at 100% efficiency, but software development > was expensive so writing and re-writing needed to be minimised. Computer Science seems to be mostly developed in the 1968 - 1973 time frame by average people with access with a (personal) computer with about 32K of memory. All the new software development was Time Sharing of some kind, or a revised BETTER our NEW programming language, that wants faster and larger core memory and the deluxe Binary-Trinary-Decary virtual ALU*. That why I suspect the state of computers is so dismal today. Ben. * Implemented by a patented serial computron. PS: Strange how Unix runs millions of users, and Multics never really made it out of the lab. From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Nov 14 21:24:43 2017 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 22:24:43 -0500 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15fbdb51920-c0e-6039@webjas-vad208.srv.aolmail.net> try 9121 drives!!!..... ed! Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > On Nov 14, 2017, at 5:24 PM, william degnan wrote: > > Those drives are 720 each 3.5". No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5" drive units with either 360k or 720k drive capacities. I don't have a compatible IEEE-488 card for use with the HPDrive software. I'm curious about the open source hp85disk project, and might build hardware to work with it sometime. In any case, I'm interested in getting a 9122C drive. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 14 21:28:59 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 19:28:59 -0800 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <15fbdb51920-c0e-6039@webjas-vad208.srv.aolmail.net> References: <15fbdb51920-c0e-6039@webjas-vad208.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <6C6CD3BA-F85B-4D47-893E-1726A7A2D93B@nf6x.net> > On Nov 14, 2017, at 7:24 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > try 9121 drives!!!..... ed! No, thanks. I'd like a 9122C drive. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 14 21:37:45 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 19:37:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> <32cad10a-4dbf-0d35-3dc1-4cafdee302ea@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 2017, ben via cctalk wrote: > Computer Science seems to be mostly developed in the 1968 - 1973 time > frame by average people with access with a (personal) computer with > about 32K of memory. We could use some clarification of your terminology. Because MOST people do not consider any of the computers in 1968 - 1973 to be "personal" computers. Although the 4004 was announced in November 1971, commercial availability of kits, etc. such as Altair, Imsai, wasn't until 1975. An individual TERMINAL connecting to a computer, perhaps, but computers owned by an individual were rare. Admittedly, in 1962, Mauchly predicted "personal computer", and in 1968, HP referred to the 9100A as a "personal computer". Having heard discussion of 4004 and predictions, in 1972, I left aerospace (which had not completely recovered from a collapse), declaring that I would get back into computers as soon as "tabletop computers" became practical and available to me. (I did not foresee them being called "personal computers"). I intently watched the early S100 machines, but didn't get back into computers until TRS80/Apple/PET. The first one that I owned was a TRS80 for $400 (I supplied my own monitor and cassetter). (4K Level I, which I brought up to 16K, and paid for Level II upgrade. Then Expansion Interface and Serial Port ("Radio-Shack 232"), supplying my own drives, RAM, printer, etc. > All the new software development was Time Sharing > of some kind, or a revised BETTER our NEW programming language, that > wants faster and larger core memory and the deluxe > Binary-Trinary-Decary > virtual ALU*. > That why I suspect the state of computers is so dismal today. Yes, 1968-1973 had time-sharing for personal computing, but not "personal computers" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Nov 14 21:57:05 2017 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 22:57:05 -0500 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <15fbdb51920-c0e-6039@webjas-vad208.srv.aolmail.net> References: <15fbdb51920-c0e-6039@webjas-vad208.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <15fbdd2b9c8-c0a-1badd@webjas-vac200.srv.aolmail.net> there was also a hard drive with the local density floppy in it too.... Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: try 9121 drives!!!..... ed! Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > On Nov 14, 2017, at 5:24 PM, william degnan wrote: > > Those drives are 720 each 3.5". No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5" drive units with either 360k or 720k drive capacities. I don't have a compatible IEEE-488 card for use with the HPDrive software. I'm curious about the open source hp85disk project, and might build hardware to work with it sometime. In any case, I'm interested in getting a 9122C drive. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 14 21:58:42 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 21:58:42 -0600 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5A0BBB72.1020301@pico-systems.com> On 11/14/2017 11:20 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > It's always struck me how revolutionary (for IBM) the change in > architecture from the 700x to the S/360 was. The 709x will probably > strike the average reader of today as being arcane, what with > sign-magnitude representation, subtractive index registers and so on. > The 7080, probably even more so. But then, most of IBM's hardware > before S/360 had its quirky side; the only exception I can think of, > offhand, would be the 1130, which was introduced at about the same time > as the S/360. Pretty much all computers of that early-60's vintage, where a maze of logic was used to decode instructions, and everything was done with discrete transistors and diodes, had quirky arcane instruction sets. Some of this was due to the prevailing thought on instruction sets, but part of it was done to save a few transistors here and there, and to heck with the side effects. Most of these computers had very few registers, or put the "registers" in fixed core locations, due to the cost of a flip-flop. The 709x series was certainly like that. Hard to BELIEVE, with 55,000 transistors! > The S/360 was a breath of fresh air for IBM. > Well, microcode freed them from a lot of these constraints, instead of vastly convoluted decode and sequencing logic, the instruction set became just another computer program. If you compare the amount of logic in a 7094 and a 360/50, the 360 looks like a SIMPLE machine in comparison. I don't know how many transistors there were in a 360/50, but I'm guessing less than 20,000, maybe as little as 12,000. Even then, what they used for a FF (they called them D-latches) took 2.5 SLT modules each. Certainly, going from SMS to SLT, the machine got considerably smaller, but it seems that they got a lot simpler in architecture, as well. But, another current in computer architecture was to regularize the instruction set, what later came to be called orthogonality. The 360 certainly took that to heart. Also, getting rid of all those special purpose registers. The 709x and their ilk had accumulators, multiplier/quotient registers, index registers and all sorts of other things. The 360 just had "registers"! I think a major reason for this current was to make compiler writing simpler. But, it made life easier for the assembly language programmer, as well. Jon From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Nov 14 22:11:05 2017 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 23:11:05 -0500 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <6C6CD3BA-F85B-4D47-893E-1726A7A2D93B@nf6x.net> References: <6C6CD3BA-F85B-4D47-893E-1726A7A2D93B@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <15fbddf8cf0-c0c-1bac3@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85? Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > On Nov 14, 2017, at 7:24 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > try 9121 drives!!!..... ed! No, thanks. I'd like a 9122C drive. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 14 22:26:29 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 20:26:29 -0800 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <15fbddf8cf0-c0c-1bac3@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> References: <6C6CD3BA-F85B-4D47-893E-1726A7A2D93B@nf6x.net> <15fbddf8cf0-c0c-1bac3@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85? > I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :) I?ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the Extended Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my A model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the Amigo or SS-80 protocols. I?d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time finding 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don?t talk, so that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5? DD media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other 3.5? HPIB floppy drives. From jason at smbfc.net Tue Nov 14 22:30:46 2017 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 20:30:46 -0800 Subject: Free Not really old software Message-ID: All, I picked up a big lot of stuff this past weekend.? Amongst the pile of quite desirable Apple items (Feb '84 Macintosh!!!) were versions of "Canvas" graphics software for Windows.? Boxed versions of Canvas 3, 5 and 6. Free if anyone wants it.? Comes with training material on VHS tapes! I'm not inclined to waste the shelf space on these myself. Pickup in Seattle or? I guess I'll ship it if you have a burning desire for it. http://archives.smbfc.net/uploads/retrocomputing/tmp/re_20171114_193434.jpg --Jason From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Nov 14 22:33:04 2017 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 23:33:04 -0500 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15fbdf3a7e0-c0c-d2ae@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net> ok back in my day.. I do not think 85 adressed modern drive of 1.44 meg..? so that was what I was going on.. yes if you can use 1.44 do so.. older new media hard to find... Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85? > I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :) I?ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the Extended Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my A model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the Amigo or SS-80 protocols. I?d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time finding 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don?t talk, so that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5? DD media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other 3.5? HPIB floppy drives. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 14 22:39:10 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 22:39:10 -0600 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> <32cad10a-4dbf-0d35-3dc1-4cafdee302ea@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <5A0BC4EE.4040201@pico-systems.com> On 11/14/2017 09:10 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> I think the 360 marked the change from hardware-driven >> development to >> software-driven. The 'arcane' architectures would have >> maximised >> performance for a given amount of hardware, and >> programmers were >> relatively cheap. But the 360 reversed that, hardware was >> now cheap >> and didn't need to work at 100% efficiency, but software >> development >> was expensive so writing and re-writing needed to be >> minimised. > > Computer Science seems to be mostly developed in the 1968 > - 1973 time frame by average people with access with a > (personal) computer with about 32K of memory. Hmmm? Not too many personal computers in 1968-73. There was the LINC 12-bit mini that cost about $50K and was designed for use by one person at a time. I built an 8008 machine in 1976 or so, and got a Z-80 S-100 system going in about 1977. Jon From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 14 22:40:42 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 20:40:42 -0800 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <15fbdf3a7e0-c0c-d2ae@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net> References: <15fbdf3a7e0-c0c-d2ae@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <4091D535-5172-428E-8186-922FBAFE49FF@nf6x.net> > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:33, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > ok back in my day.. I do not think 85 adressed modern drive of 1.44 meg..? so that was what I was going on.. yes if you can use 1.44 do so.. older new media hard to find... I am still new to this HP-85 stuff, but I think you are correct about the A model system not originally handling the 1.44M drive. I think that the upgraded B model ROMs in the PRM-85 are supposed to let it use the newer drives. From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Nov 14 22:44:18 2017 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 23:44:18 -0500 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <4091D535-5172-428E-8186-922FBAFE49FF@nf6x.net> References: <4091D535-5172-428E-8186-922FBAFE49FF@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <15fbdfdf79d-c09-3610d@webjas-vac237.srv.aolmail.net> remember too.. there were hpib 8 inch and 5 inch drives.... wish I had saved some!!!.... Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:33, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > ok back in my day.. I do not think 85 adressed modern drive of 1.44 meg..? so that was what I was going on.. yes if you can use 1.44 do so.. older new media hard to find... I am still new to this HP-85 stuff, but I think you are correct about the A model system not originally handling the 1.44M drive. I think that the upgraded B model ROMs in the PRM-85 are supposed to let it use the newer drives. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 14 22:45:19 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 21:45:19 -0700 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> <32cad10a-4dbf-0d35-3dc1-4cafdee302ea@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: On 11/14/2017 8:37 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 14 Nov 2017, ben via cctalk wrote: >> Computer Science seems to be mostly developed in the 1968 - 1973 time >> frame by average people with access with a (personal) computer with >> about 32K of memory. > > We could use some clarification of your terminology. > Because MOST people do not consider any of the computers in 1968 - 1973 > to be "personal" computers. Well what do you call it then, when people rather than a VIP's had access to a computer. > Although the 4004 was announced in November 1971, commercial > availability of kits, etc. such as Altair, Imsai, wasn't until 1975. > Trying to design a TTL style computer from the 70's era, the one thing that I can't find with common research, is what memory was available back then and what prices. TTL,CPU's and surplus I can find listed but what is MNO-4321 $15.95 a example listing. I can clock the CPU (74181's) at a good clip, but I can't create the bus unless I can get REAL memory in my hands, or could in the 1970's. The CPU is 20 bits with 10 bit characters. Two large cards , one the control and one the datapath make up the cpu. S-100 box size computer with the blinking lights. Cost wise I would say it would have been about the same ballpark as early 8080 S-100 bus system. I am using 256x4 PROMS and think they came out in 1974 as well as 74LSXXX and Tristate logic rather than OC buses. > An individual TERMINAL connecting to a computer, perhaps, but computers > owned by an individual were rare. > > Admittedly, in 1962, Mauchly predicted "personal computer", and in 1968, > HP referred to the 9100A as a "personal computer". > > Having heard discussion of 4004 and predictions, in 1972, I left > aerospace (which had not completely recovered from a collapse), > declaring that I would get back into computers as soon as "tabletop > computers" became practical and available to me. Just what is that? A PDP8 could be on pedestal not hidden in a rack. ? (I did not foresee > them being called "personal computers").? I intently watched the early > S100 machines, but didn't get back into computers until > TRS80/Apple/PET.? The first one that I owned was a TRS80 for $400 (I > supplied my own monitor and cassetter). > (4K Level I, which I brought up to 16K, and paid for Level II upgrade. > Then Expansion Interface and Serial Port ("Radio-Shack 232"), supplying > my own drives, RAM, printer, etc. I call them GAME machines. I also tend to like Kilobaud better than Byte magazine. > >> All the new software development was Time Sharing of some kind, or a >> revised BETTER our NEW programming language, that >> wants faster and larger core memory and the deluxe Binary-Trinary-Decary >> virtual ALU*. >> That why I suspect the state of computers is so dismal today. > > Yes, 1968-1973 had time-sharing for personal computing, but not > "personal computers" > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com > From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Nov 14 22:52:12 2017 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 23:52:12 -0500 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <4091D535-5172-428E-8186-922FBAFE49FF@nf6x.net> References: <4091D535-5172-428E-8186-922FBAFE49FF@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <15fbe052f12-c0c-65df@webjas-vad241.srv.aolmail.net> our computer company in az... computer exchange inc helped gemilogical inst. of America dispose of their hp 86 and 87 computers... wish I had saved one of each.. we have a hp 85 in a padded tote case at smecc museum here.. we need to fire it up. one thing I would like to find us a rack mount 85... always wanted one..... back in the old days. Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:33, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > ok back in my day.. I do not think 85 adressed modern drive of 1.44 meg..? so that was what I was going on.. yes if you can use 1.44 do so.. older new media hard to find... I am still new to this HP-85 stuff, but I think you are correct about the A model system not originally handling the 1.44M drive. I think that the upgraded B model ROMs in the PRM-85 are supposed to let it use the newer drives. From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Nov 15 00:04:05 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 22:04:05 -0800 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <15fbdfdf79d-c09-3610d@webjas-vac237.srv.aolmail.net> References: <4091D535-5172-428E-8186-922FBAFE49FF@nf6x.net> <15fbdfdf79d-c09-3610d@webjas-vac237.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <39F20493-403B-4DB8-B55E-11397E5B8192@nf6x.net> > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:44, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > remember too.. there were hpib 8 inch and 5 inch drives.... wish I had saved some!!!.... Those would certainly interest me if I happen upon any at a price that I like. Same goes for an HPIB 9 track tape drive. But since the HP Series 80 stuff lies more towards the fringes of my interests at this time, I have a hunch that I am not too likely to find one of those at a price I would like to pay any time soon. Naturally, I?m more prone to pay real money for things closer to my core interests. But if I do happen upon any of that sort of gear at the right time, place, and price, then that will be really cool. Sometimes I surprise myself. I never expected to be interested in the DG Nova until I stumbled over a chance to buy one along with a PDP-11/03 system that interested me more at the time. Now I am glad that I have that cool Nova system, even though I still haven?t managed to get it talking to its hard drive. From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Nov 15 00:55:20 2017 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 01:55:20 -0500 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <39F20493-403B-4DB8-B55E-11397E5B8192@nf6x.net> References: <39F20493-403B-4DB8-B55E-11397E5B8192@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <15fbe75ee55-c0f-225ff@webjas-vaa215.srv.aolmail.net> yeah I need a,hpib 7970e for our hp 3000 37.. I have back up tapes of the killer 100 board bbs system w/ chat, email, vote and poll and nay me features..... I found a printout if source too but no way gonna,try to reenter it... somewhere I have the earlier hp 2000 version of this bbs system but as in remember tapes not as well stored.. Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:44, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > remember too.. there were hpib 8 inch and 5 inch drives.... wish I had saved some!!!.... Those would certainly interest me if I happen upon any at a price that I like. Same goes for an HPIB 9 track tape drive. But since the HP Series 80 stuff lies more towards the fringes of my interests at this time, I have a hunch that I am not too likely to find one of those at a price I would like to pay any time soon. Naturally, I?m more prone to pay real money for things closer to my core interests. But if I do happen upon any of that sort of gear at the right time, place, and price, then that will be really cool. Sometimes I surprise myself. I never expected to be interested in the DG Nova until I stumbled over a chance to buy one along with a PDP-11/03 system that interested me more at the time. Now I am glad that I have that cool Nova system, even though I still haven?t managed to get it talking to its hard drive. From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Nov 15 00:57:15 2017 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 01:57:15 -0500 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <39F20493-403B-4DB8-B55E-11397E5B8192@nf6x.net> References: <39F20493-403B-4DB8-B55E-11397E5B8192@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <15fbe77a8c5-c11-12951@webjas-vae018.srv.aolmail.net> you have me real curious,as to what is in that padded hp case...... Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:44, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > remember too.. there were hpib 8 inch and 5 inch drives.... wish I had saved some!!!.... Those would certainly interest me if I happen upon any at a price that I like. Same goes for an HPIB 9 track tape drive. But since the HP Series 80 stuff lies more towards the fringes of my interests at this time, I have a hunch that I am not too likely to find one of those at a price I would like to pay any time soon. Naturally, I?m more prone to pay real money for things closer to my core interests. But if I do happen upon any of that sort of gear at the right time, place, and price, then that will be really cool. Sometimes I surprise myself. I never expected to be interested in the DG Nova until I stumbled over a chance to buy one along with a PDP-11/03 system that interested me more at the time. Now I am glad that I have that cool Nova system, even though I still haven?t managed to get it talking to its hard drive. From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Nov 15 02:05:55 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 00:05:55 -0800 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <15fbe77a8c5-c11-12951@webjas-vae018.srv.aolmail.net> References: <39F20493-403B-4DB8-B55E-11397E5B8192@nf6x.net> <15fbe77a8c5-c11-12951@webjas-vae018.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <0C33B867-7EAE-4B1E-99E0-8DDD7F8989FB@nf6x.net> > On Nov 14, 2017, at 10:57 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > you have me real curious,as to what is in that padded hp case...... What are you referring to? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Nov 15 03:31:21 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 10:31:21 +0100 (CET) Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 2017, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5" No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A drive has no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format. ;-) Christian From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Nov 15 07:25:48 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 08:25:48 -0500 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <5A0BBB72.1020301@pico-systems.com> References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> <5A0BBB72.1020301@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <9F3E5C3C-03C0-400A-8869-0D3B4CEAD2EA@comcast.net> > On Nov 14, 2017, at 10:58 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/14/2017 11:20 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> It's always struck me how revolutionary (for IBM) the change in >> architecture from the 700x to the S/360 was. The 709x will probably >> strike the average reader of today as being arcane, what with >> sign-magnitude representation, subtractive index registers and so on. >> The 7080, probably even more so. But then, most of IBM's hardware >> before S/360 had its quirky side; the only exception I can think of, >> offhand, would be the 1130, which was introduced at about the same time >> as the S/360. > Pretty much all computers of that early-60's vintage, where a maze of logic was used to decode instructions, and everything was done with discrete transistors and diodes, had quirky arcane instruction sets. Some of this was due to the prevailing thought on instruction sets, but part of it was done to save a few transistors here and there, and to heck with the side effects. Most of these computers had very few registers, or put the "registers" in fixed core locations, due to the cost of a flip-flop. The 709x series was certainly like that. Hard to BELIEVE, with 55,000 transistors! I can't remember how many transistors a CDC 6600 has. A lot more than that, I'm pretty sure. On "quirky arcane instruction sets" -- some yes, some no. The CDC 6000 series can make a pretty good argument for being the first RISC machine. Its instructions are certainly quite nicely constructed and the decoding involved is pretty compact. While I don't think the term "orthogonal" had been applied yet to instruction set design -- I first saw that used for the VAX -- it fits the 6000 too. Another example of an instruction set design that's pretty orthogonal is the Electrologica, especially in the X1 (from 1958). It's a one address machine, not a register machine like the 6000 or traditional RISC, but in other ways it looks a lot like RISC. Wide instructions with fixed fields allocated for fixed purposes (like register numbers, operation numbers, conditional execution modifiers, etc.). The 360 was certainly significant in delivering many of these things in a very successful commercial package. And I can believe it being revolutionary for IBM -- but not quite so much for the industry as a whole. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 15 09:01:17 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 10:01:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers Message-ID: <20171115150117.28EC718C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Franchuk > Multics never really made it out of the lab. This 'bogo-meme' (to use a word I coined) is, well, totally flat wrong. Multics was a reasonably successful product for Honeywell from the end of 1972 (when the H6180 was introduced) to around 1987 (when they stopped selling the DPS8/M, which had been introduced at the end of 1982). At its peak, in 1985, there were almost 100 Multics sites. MIT ceased to be involved in Multics development in 1977. Multics died not because it was a failure (indeed, many systems kept running for years, because the users liked it so much - the last one only shut down in 2000), but because of Honeywell's incompetence at the computer business. (That incompetence eventually resulted in a decision - probably correct from the _business_ point of view, given said incompetence - to get out of the computer business.) More here: http://multicians.org/myths.html and http://multicians.org/hill-mgt.html (which discusses the high-level corporate politics behind the decision to can Multics). Noel From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 09:11:05 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 15:11:05 +0000 Subject: Need help with an odd design construct In-Reply-To: <1D04F50D-40F0-40EC-B7F0-BF7F529AFCE4@shaw.ca> References: <4c3547a8-5e9d-3ed4-d76b-ff17051df026@jbrain.com> <63F1DD68-E6B5-4206-BF41-51B30520899F@shaw.ca> <7a2d45bd-754c-b9f9-a2b0-70a7acf4fad4@jbrain.com>, <1D04F50D-40F0-40EC-B7F0-BF7F529AFCE4@shaw.ca> Message-ID: Why not just measure the voltage across the resistor. That will tell you the amount of current flowing. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Brent Hilpert via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 6:29:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Need help with an odd design construct On 2017-Nov-14, at 4:51 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 11/14/2017 6:32 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> >> Once the cart is pulled the 4008 chip should end up in standby mode - no enables asserted. > The 3K3 ties both !CROM and !CRAM high, and they are both open collector outputs on the port. > > But, I forgot to put one important detail in the original note. I so apologize. The original cart has a HM62256LP-12, but it is evident from the traces being cut on the cart that this was not even the original SRAM. I do believe the original SRAM was 32kB in size, though. > > SInce the original SRAM was not even original, I replaced with the '4008 for various reasons. >> >> In standby a CMOS chip like this will appear as a near infinite impedance, so there isn't much voltage dividing going on with a 6.8K R. >> The full battery voltage (minus epsilon) will be across the chip. > Then, why do the 6K8 there? >> >> The datasheet specs standby current Isb1 at typically 4 uA (50 max). >> Ohm's law will get you an idea of the effective resistance of the chip if you really want to calculate what epsilon is here. > I'll try and calculate it for the HM62256LP, which seems to be .5mA under no load: > > http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/97905.pdf > > (2.7/.0005) = 5K4? That seems incomplete, like I need to also take into account that .5mA flows through the 6800 resistor, but that means (6800*.0005) = 3.4V, which can't be right. > > If I put that into a Voltage Divider (2.7V Vih, R1 = 5400, R2 = 6800, output is 1.5V, implying the GND line is at 1.5V relative to the battery... >> >> >> Why the circuit might be as you have it with the 6.8K I'm not sure, perhaps for some current limiting or glitch suppression as the cart is pulled out/in. >> Doesn't really matter much as the only other thing on that gnd side is the switches. > And they aren't there on the original. >> >> Those 4 10K resistors are kind of weird, each 'on' switch is chewing up orders of magnitude more battery current than the chip, > Good point. I copied the design from the "ROM cart" schematic, where the battery is not in place, and the switches were there to choose the bank of 32K that would be visible in the address space. I should reconsider the schematic, and... >> might make more sense if they went to Vcc where they would be diode blocked when the cart is on battery. >> >> > Excellent suggestion. I will do so. With the 62256 drawing consequential standby current, you can't ensure an accurate calculated value for the voltage division from specs as the chip current probably isn't a linear relation to Vcc. But going from what we have: Isb @ 5V Vcc = 0.5ma then chip R = 5V / 0.0005A = 10 Kohms 2.7V Vbatt * 10000 / (10000+6800) = 1.6V across the chip supply pins. But from the datasheet it also looks like Isb goes down considerably (40uA) if the voltage on nCS approaches Vcc and other inputs pins go to 0V, as it might/would/should with the cart pulled. That would be a higher effective R for the chip and so a higher V supply for the chip. There is another potential problem with those switches though, it's not clear to me whether you resolved whether X1P pins 1 & 27 connect together when plugged into the computer. If not, then when plugged in and operational, the switch 10K Rs form a varying voltage divider with the 6.8K and the input levels on bank-select address pins would be all over the place. I would suggest you redraw the schematic with GND as the chip/computer GND rather than establishing a second GND, and have a bus line across the bottom for the battery negative. If you move the switches R supply it may be a good idea to put another diode in series to give a similar V drop as the main supply diode so the V on the bank address pins doesn't go above the chip Vcc. I'm not clear on what all is going on there between original design and modifications and additions. From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Nov 15 10:31:15 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 08:31:15 -0800 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <8AA770DD-CD9D-45FA-B81B-FA752C7E11DA@nf6x.net> > On Nov 15, 2017, at 01:31, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A drive has no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format. > ;-) Ah! That's technically correct, which is, of course, the best kind of correct. Well, if we're being pedantic, then we might also refer to the drives by their unformatted capacity, as HP themselves sometimes did: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOr81HpVQAAn-X5.jpg That makes them 2-Mbyte drives. ;-) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 10:35:17 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 11:35:17 -0500 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <8AA770DD-CD9D-45FA-B81B-FA752C7E11DA@nf6x.net> References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> <8AA770DD-CD9D-45FA-B81B-FA752C7E11DA@nf6x.net> Message-ID: FYI - I checked related to the HP 85 IEEE port I have an Microcomputer Systems Corporation MSE 9800 and an HP 9122S b On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Nov 15, 2017, at 01:31, Christian Corti via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A > drive has no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format. > > ;-) > > Ah! That's technically correct, which is, of course, the best kind of > correct. > > Well, if we're being pedantic, then we might also refer to the drives by > their unformatted capacity, as HP themselves sometimes did: > > https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOr81HpVQAAn-X5.jpg > > That makes them 2-Mbyte drives. ;-) > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Nov 15 11:23:37 2017 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 10:23:37 -0700 Subject: Two DEC RA90 and TS05 Message-ID: Denver area, pickup only ... Anybody? From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 11:26:23 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 13:26:23 -0400 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <4091D535-5172-428E-8186-922FBAFE49FF@nf6x.net> References: <15fbdf3a7e0-c0c-d2ae@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net> <4091D535-5172-428E-8186-922FBAFE49FF@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <3e2a60a6-8d24-4aca-5d3a-f358ac888743@gmail.com> On 2017-11-15 12:40 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: >> On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:33, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >> >> ok back in my day.. I do not think 85 adressed modern drive of 1.44 meg..? so that was what I was going on.. yes if you can use 1.44 do so.. older new media hard to find... > I am still new to this HP-85 stuff, but I think you are correct about the A model system not originally handling the 1.44M drive. I think that the upgraded B model ROMs in the PRM-85 are supposed to let it use the newer drives. > > > With something like a PRM-85 and the 85B mass storage, E disk and extended mass Storage you can support SS80 devices such as the 9122C.? I believe that the gentleman that created the PRM-80 distributes a configuration for this exact purpose.? When I had an 85A I created my own card for these ROMs and others and made my design available. Paul. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 11:33:20 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 13:33:20 -0400 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <6C6CD3BA-F85B-4D47-893E-1726A7A2D93B@nf6x.net> <15fbddf8cf0-c0c-1bac3@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: 720K media is pretty easy to get as well, I bought 100 "used" disks from floppydisk.com, and it is hard to tell they have ever been used and I have not had any problems with them.? I also bought a lot on eBay that where previously used on an Amiga that majority of them where OK and the where a mix of single and double sided media. Paul. On 2017-11-15 12:26 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > >> On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >> >> wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85? >> > I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :) > > I?ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the Extended Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my A model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the Amigo or SS-80 protocols. > > I?d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time finding 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don?t talk, so that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5? DD media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other 3.5? HPIB floppy drives. From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Nov 15 11:36:30 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 09:36:30 -0800 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <6C6CD3BA-F85B-4D47-893E-1726A7A2D93B@nf6x.net> <15fbddf8cf0-c0c-1bac3@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <6FBB08AB-87FA-47DB-834C-14C1B9732ADB@nf6x.net> > On Nov 15, 2017, at 09:33, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > 720K media is pretty easy to get as well, I bought 100 "used" disks from floppydisk.com, and it is hard to tell they have ever been used and I have not had any problems with them. I also bought a lot on eBay that where previously used on an Amiga that majority of them where OK and the where a mix of single and double sided media. That's good to know. I'll check them out. That should open up my options, as well as giving me a way to get more media for machines like my Amigas and early Macs. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 15 11:44:24 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 09:44:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: >> No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5" On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A drive has > no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format. > ;-) "high-density" is even more meaningless than referring to them by their capacity in a given format. It is a BOGUS marketing term! Referring to a drive by the capacity of most commonly used format for that configuration is indeed inaccurate, but less ambiguous than adopting the marketing terminology. MOST people will successfully understand what is meant by "360K", "720K", "400K", "800K', "1.2M", "1.44M" (which is just plain wrong, and SHOULD be "1.4M"), "2.88M", even though such names are not technically accurate. Although there can be, AND ARE, some different configurations that result in the same final capacities, it is generally accepted as to WHICH kind of drive/controller configuration is meant by each of those names. "400K" generally means Macintosh single sided, not DEC Rainbow, etc. Unformatted capacity would be a more correct nomenclature, although not always precise, and relatively meaningless to the majority of users, who didn't CARE except for how much space was available to them. Formatted capacity is generally between 40 and 60 percent of unformatted capacity. The early drives in the current branch of evolution (ignoring NRZI, phase-modulated, etc.) were "FM" (Frequency-Modulated). The next innovation was to leave out clock pulses that could be interpolated instead of explicitly included, resulting in a "less crowded" signal, which could handle being done at twice the data transfer rate. The engineers called that "MFM" (Modified Frequency Modulation), which was not an optimum choice, since other modulations were possible, including the later MMFM (Modified Modified Frequency Modulation). The MARKETING people called the current recording system "DOUBLE DENSITY". Intertec/Superbrain called their "DOUBLE DENSITY"/double-sided, "QUAD DENSITY"; although twice the CAPACITY, the density was unchanged. When drives became available that had twice the number of tracks (96tpi 5.25"), marketing called that "QUAD DENSITY". Although twice the CAPACITY, the density was unchanged. Intertec/Superbarin had already used the name "QUAD DENSITY" for their DSDD disks, so THEY, and ONLY Intertec/Superbrain called the 96tpi DSDD, "SUPER DENSITY", which they abbreviated "SD", in order to be confused with "SINGLE DENSITY". AFTER "DOUBLE DENSITY" came into being, the previous system becaame known as "SINGLE DENSITY". I say that it is analogous to the way the "Great War" became known as "World War One" AFTER discussion of "World War Two" began. Note that archival searches show that "World War Two" as a search term has earlier hits in archives than does "World War One". Fortunately, Kennedy's obsession over Cuba, and Nikita's disappointment over being denied admission to Disneyland did not result in World War Three. Yet. When improvement in media and drives permitted doubling the data transfer rate, with the same recording method, MARKETING called that "HIGH DENSITY". Note that "HIGH DENSITY" IS "DOUBLE DENSITY", merely with twice the data transfer rate. When Barrium-Ferrite disks, and perpendicular recording were developed, they were capable of twice the bit density on the disk, so the data transfer rate was doubled again. MARKETING called that "EXTENDED DENSITY". (cf. sizes of olives: "giant", "enormous", "huge", etc. There was a comedic few minute documtary about that 45? years ago) Some specifications: 8" FM "Single Density" was 360 RPM at 250,000 bits per second. (about 500K unformatted per side) 8" MFM "Double Density" was 360 RPM at 500,000 bits per second. (about 1M unformatted per side) 5.25" FM "Single Density" was 300 RPM at 125,000 bits per second. (about 125K unformatted per side) 5.25" MFM "Double Density" was 300 RPM at 250,000 bits per second. (about 250K unformatted per side with 48 tpi, about 500K unformatted with 96tpi) 5.25" MFM "High Density" was 360 RPM at 500,000 bits per second. (about 1M unformatted per side) In 5.25" 360 RPM drives that were not capable of switching to 300 RPM, 5.25" MFM "Double Density" in a 360 RPM drive was 300,000 bits per second. The 3" MFM disks that I have seen were 300 RPM at 250,000 bits per second. (500K unformatted per side) 3.25" MFM disks were 300 RPM at 250,000 bits per second. (500K unformatted per side) 3.5" MFM "Double Density" (sometimes called "720K" due to the most common format, or "400K"/"800K" at Apple) were 300 RPM at 250,000 bits per second. (500K unformatted per side) 3.5" MFM "High Density" (sometimes called "1.44M", due to the most common formsat being 1.41 Mebibytes, or 1.44 of a unit of 1000*1024 bytes), were 300 RPM at 500,000 bits per second. (1M unformatted per side) 3.5" MFM "ED" (vertical recording?/barrium ferrite) were 300 RPM at 1,000,000 bits per second. (2M unformatted per side) NeXT referred to theirs by the unformatted capacity: 4M, further confusing their users. Note that there were always some exceptions. Weltec made a 5.25" drive at 180 RPM, to do "HIGH DENSITY"/"1.2M" at 250,000 bits per second on PC/XT. Sony made some 3.5" drives that were 600 RPM, to use 500,000 bits per second. NEC used 360 RPM 3.5" drives, to have the same format structure on their 8" "DOUBLE DENSITY", 5.25" "HIGH DENSITY", and 3.5" "HIGH DENSITY". Sometimes called "Type 3" Epson (Geneva PX-8) used a 3.5" with 67.5 tpi, instead of the common 135tpi Can you name another 20 exceptions? (Chuck and Tony probably can) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 11:53:04 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 13:53:04 -0400 Subject: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <89095411-a932-e1aa-96a0-7e6cd8e2d618@gmail.com> On 2017-11-15 1:44 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5" > On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >> No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A >> drive has no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format. >> ;-) > > "high-density" is even more meaningless than referring to them by > their capacity in a given format.? It is a BOGUS marketing term! > > Referring to a drive by the capacity of most commonly used format for > that configuration is indeed inaccurate, but less ambiguous than > adopting the marketing terminology.? MOST people will successfully > understand what is meant by "360K", "720K", "400K", "800K', "1.2M", > "1.44M" (which is just plain wrong, and SHOULD be "1.4M"), "2.88M", > even though such names are not technically accurate.? Although there > can be, AND ARE, some different configurations that result in the same > final capacities, it is generally accepted as to WHICH kind of > drive/controller configuration is meant by each of those names.??? > "400K" generally means Macintosh single sided, not DEC Rainbow, etc. > > > Unformatted capacity would be a more correct nomenclature, although > not always precise, and relatively meaningless to the majority of > users, who didn't CARE except for how much space was available to > them.?? Formatted capacity is generally between 40 and 60 percent of > unformatted capacity. > > > The early drives in the current branch of evolution (ignoring NRZI, > phase-modulated, etc.) were "FM" (Frequency-Modulated). > > The next innovation was to leave out clock pulses that could be > interpolated instead of explicitly included, resulting in a "less > crowded" signal, which could handle being done at twice the data > transfer rate. The engineers called that "MFM" (Modified Frequency > Modulation), which was not an optimum choice, since other modulations > were possible, including the later MMFM (Modified Modified Frequency > Modulation).? The MARKETING people called the current recording system > "DOUBLE DENSITY". Intertec/Superbrain called their "DOUBLE > DENSITY"/double-sided, "QUAD DENSITY"; although twice the CAPACITY, > the density was unchanged.?? When drives became available that had > twice the number of tracks (96tpi 5.25"), marketing called that "QUAD > DENSITY".? Although twice the CAPACITY, the density was unchanged.?? > Intertec/Superbarin had already used the name "QUAD DENSITY" for their > DSDD disks, so THEY, and ONLY Intertec/Superbrain called the 96tpi > DSDD, "SUPER DENSITY", which they abbreviated "SD", in order to be > confused with "SINGLE DENSITY". > > > AFTER "DOUBLE DENSITY" came into being, the previous system becaame > known as "SINGLE DENSITY".? I say that it is analogous to the way the > "Great War" became known as "World War One" AFTER discussion of "World > War Two" began.? Note that archival searches show that "World War Two" > as a search term has earlier hits in archives than does "World War One". > Fortunately, Kennedy's obsession over Cuba, and Nikita's > disappointment over being denied admission to Disneyland did not > result in World War Three.? Yet. > > > When improvement in media and drives permitted doubling the data > transfer rate, with the same recording method, MARKETING called that > "HIGH DENSITY".? Note that "HIGH DENSITY" IS "DOUBLE DENSITY", merely > with twice the data transfer rate. > > When Barrium-Ferrite disks, and perpendicular recording were > developed, they were capable of twice the bit density on the disk, so > the data transfer rate was doubled again.? MARKETING called that > "EXTENDED DENSITY". > (cf. sizes of olives: "giant", "enormous", "huge", etc.? There was a > comedic few minute documtary about that 45? years ago) > > > Some specifications: > 8" FM "Single Density" was 360 RPM at 250,000 bits per second. (about > 500K unformatted per side) > > 8" MFM "Double Density" was 360 RPM at 500,000 bits per second. (about > 1M unformatted per side) > > 5.25" FM "Single Density" was 300 RPM at 125,000 bits per second. > (about 125K unformatted per side) > > 5.25" MFM "Double Density" was 300 RPM at 250,000 bits per second. > (about 250K unformatted per side with 48 tpi, about 500K unformatted > with 96tpi) > > 5.25" MFM "High Density" was 360 RPM at 500,000 bits per second. > (about 1M unformatted per side) > > In 5.25" 360 RPM drives that were not capable of switching to 300 RPM, > 5.25" MFM "Double Density" in a 360 RPM drive was 300,000 bits per > second. > > The 3" MFM disks that I have seen were 300 RPM at 250,000 bits per > second. > (500K unformatted per side) > > 3.25" MFM disks were 300 RPM at 250,000 bits per second. > (500K unformatted per side) > > 3.5" MFM "Double Density" (sometimes called "720K" due to the most > common format, or "400K"/"800K" at Apple) were 300 RPM at 250,000 bits > per second.? (500K unformatted per side) > > 3.5" MFM "High Density" (sometimes called "1.44M", due to the most > common formsat being 1.41 Mebibytes, or 1.44 of a unit of 1000*1024 > bytes), were 300 RPM at 500,000 bits per second.? (1M unformatted per > side) > > 3.5" MFM "ED" (vertical recording?/barrium ferrite) were 300 RPM at > 1,000,000 bits per second.? (2M unformatted per side)? NeXT referred > to theirs by the unformatted capacity: 4M, further confusing their users. > > > > > Note that there were always some exceptions. > Weltec made a 5.25" drive at 180 RPM, to do "HIGH DENSITY"/"1.2M" at > 250,000 bits per second on PC/XT. > > Sony made some 3.5" drives that were 600 RPM, to use 500,000 bits per > second. > > NEC used 360 RPM 3.5" drives, to have the same format structure on > their 8" "DOUBLE DENSITY", 5.25" "HIGH DENSITY", and 3.5" "HIGH > DENSITY". Sometimes called "Type 3" > > Epson (Geneva PX-8) used a 3.5" with 67.5 tpi, instead of the common > 135tpi > > Can you name another 20 exceptions??? (Chuck and Tony probably can) > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com HP used 3.5" drives made by Sony that rotated at 600 RPM twice the data rate but same density. Paul From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Nov 15 11:56:25 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 09:56:25 -0800 Subject: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <8ABC44C0-D2D7-412B-8923-D8EFE597EE09@nf6x.net> > On Nov 15, 2017, at 09:44, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5" > On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >> No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A drive has no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format. >> ;-) > > "high-density" is even more meaningless than referring to them by their capacity in a given format. It is a BOGUS marketing term! Bogus as it may be, compatible media for those drives commonly has "HD" printed on the box and molded into the diskette's plastic jacket. It's a useful term for identifying the compatible media. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 15 11:59:01 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 09:59:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <89095411-a932-e1aa-96a0-7e6cd8e2d618@gmail.com> References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> <89095411-a932-e1aa-96a0-7e6cd8e2d618@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> Note that there were always some exceptions. >> Weltec made a 5.25" drive at 180 RPM, to do "HIGH DENSITY"/"1.2M" at >> 250,000 bits per second on PC/XT. >> >> Sony made some 3.5" drives that were 600 RPM, to use 500,000 bits per >> second. >> >> NEC used 360 RPM 3.5" drives, to have the same format structure on their 8" >> "DOUBLE DENSITY", 5.25" "HIGH DENSITY", and 3.5" "HIGH DENSITY". Sometimes >> called "Type 3" >> >> Epson (Geneva PX-8) used a 3.5" with 67.5 tpi, instead of the common 135tpi >> >> Can you name another 20 exceptions??? (Chuck and Tony probably can) >> >> >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > HP used 3.5" drives made by Sony that rotated at 600 RPM twice the data rate > but same density. One of my favorite examples; mentioned about a dozen lines up! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 15 12:00:27 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 10:00:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <8ABC44C0-D2D7-412B-8923-D8EFE597EE09@nf6x.net> References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> <8ABC44C0-D2D7-412B-8923-D8EFE597EE09@nf6x.net> Message-ID: >>>> No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5" >> On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >>> No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A drive has no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format. >>> ;-) >> >> "high-density" is even more meaningless than referring to them by their capacity in a given format. It is a BOGUS marketing term! > > On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > Bogus as it may be, compatible media for those drives commonly has "HD" printed on the box and molded into the diskette's plastic jacket. It's a useful term for identifying the compatible media. Yes. Sadly, the least ambiguous ways that we can describe what we mean require that we use BOGUS marketing deceptive names. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 15 12:17:23 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 12:17:23 -0600 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <20171115150117.28EC718C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171115150117.28EC718C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5A0C84B3.1080806@pico-systems.com> On 11/15/2017 09:01 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > but because of Honeywell's incompetence at the computer business. > (That incompetence eventually resulted in a decision - probably correct from > the _business_ point of view, given said incompetence - to get out of the > computer business.) > > MANY companies were quite bad at making a go of the computer business. Xerox is probably legendary, but GE and RCA were certainly also famous for this. Honeywell made a LOT of computers in various forms - aerospace, minicomputer, industrial controls, etc. But, I guess they were incompetent at competing with IBM in the large systems market. They were included in the BUNCH, however. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 15 13:13:47 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 11:13:47 -0800 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <5A0C84B3.1080806@pico-systems.com> References: <20171115150117.28EC718C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5A0C84B3.1080806@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <0124a5b2-f54f-2708-a0af-bad8339bfc0c@sydex.com> On 11/15/2017 10:17 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > MANY companies were quite bad at making a go of the computer business.? > Xerox is probably legendary, but GE and RCA were certainly also famous > for this.? Honeywell made a LOT of computers in various forms - > aerospace, minicomputer, industrial controls, etc.? But, I guess they > were incompetent at competing with IBM in the large systems market. > They were included in the BUNCH, however. "BUNCH"? Never heard that one before. "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" was the term I always heard. --Chuck From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Nov 15 13:18:00 2017 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 11:18:00 -0800 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <0124a5b2-f54f-2708-a0af-bad8339bfc0c@sydex.com> References: <20171115150117.28EC718C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5A0C84B3.1080806@pico-systems.com> <0124a5b2-f54f-2708-a0af-bad8339bfc0c@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/15/17 11:13 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/15/2017 10:17 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> MANY companies were quite bad at making a go of the computer business. >> Xerox is probably legendary, but GE and RCA were certainly also famous >> for this.? Honeywell made a LOT of computers in various forms - >> aerospace, minicomputer, industrial controls, etc.? But, I guess they >> were incompetent at competing with IBM in the large systems market. >> They were included in the BUNCH, however. > "BUNCH"? Never heard that one before. "Snow White and the Seven > Dwarfs" was the term I always heard. Burroughs UNIVAC NCR CDC Honeywell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BUNCH From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 15 13:32:38 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 11:32:38 -0800 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: References: <20171115150117.28EC718C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5A0C84B3.1080806@pico-systems.com> <0124a5b2-f54f-2708-a0af-bad8339bfc0c@sydex.com> Message-ID: <235ef16b-a0ef-93a8-d797-91fd570d1b50@sydex.com> On 11/15/2017 11:18 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > Burroughs > UNIVAC > NCR > CDC > Honeywell Ah, so post-Snow White. --Chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 13:48:06 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 20:48:06 +0100 Subject: Playing with HP2640B Message-ID: I have been working on a HP 2640B terminal. It was mostly about fixing the "screen mold" problem and cleaning up the liquids that had been seeping out from the screen down into the bottom. The small coaxial wire that connects the 4.9152 MHz clock signal form the power supply (never seen a crystal controlled SMPSU before!) to the backplane was broken off, but after fixing that the terminal worked fine. Just needed some adjustment to the brightness. With the correct terminfo installed it worked quite well as a serial terminal to a Linux box. Then I tried the short 8008 programs that Christian Corti pointed to http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/hp2644/diag.html and ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/hp2644 I tried both a couple of times. The terminal enter the LOADER mode but just hangs completely at the end. I tried different baudrates but no difference. The selftest STATUS line tell me 40<802 which should indicate that there are 4k memory in the terminal. However there should be 5k since there is one 4k board and one combined control store and 1 k RAM board. Maybe there is a fault in the 1k SRAM? The terminal doesn't complain though. Regardless, the programs listed either starts at adress 30000 or 36000 which should then be within the available space. The question is, should these program work for the HP2640B as well? It has a 8008 but my guess is that the firmware is different from the 2644. What is the joint experience regarding this? Has anyone ran these small programs above on a HP2640B? The HP 2640B firmware consists of four EA 4900 ROM chips which annoyingly are not anything like normal EPROMs. So dumping will need special considerations. Has anyone dumped the HP 2640B firmware already? I didn't find it on bitsavers. /Mattis From rickb at bensene.com Wed Nov 15 13:59:19 2017 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 11:59:19 -0800 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> <32cad10a-4dbf-0d35-3dc1-4cafdee302ea@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE52@mail.bensene.com> Grumpy Ol' Fred wrote: >Yes, 1968-1973 had time-sharing for personal computing, but not "personal computers" We tend to forget about earlier "personal" computers...machines that were generally designed for one individual to be able to sit down and use interactively. That isn't to say that said individual "owned" the computer, nor did many of these end up originally purchased by individuals for personal use. However, many of them did end up in people's homes as "personal computers" after they aged enough that they were no longer commercially viable and were inexpensive enough for an enthusiast to purchase or even get for free..mainly the machines from the 1950's and early 1960's that, by the late 1960's and early 1970's were completely obsolete. There were a number of small, generally single-user computer systems built even in the 1950's. Examples: - Royal McBee/Librascope/General Precision LGP-30 (1956) -- Tube-based machine with magnetic drum memory and Friden Flexowriter - Bendix G-15 (1956) - Tube based, drum memory, IBM I/O typewriter, punched tape reader. Numerous periperhals - Monroe Monrobot III/V (~1958-1961) -- Desk-sized CPU, drum memory, decimal math, and punched tape programming - IBM 650 Autopoint (1957) -- Tube logic, magnetic drum storage, paper tape programming, decimal math - Autonetics Recomp II (1958) -- Mini-refrigerator-sized, desk-side CPU, IBM typewriter, paper tape, IBM I/O Typewriter - Clary DE-60 (1960) -- Transistor-based, drum memory, decimal math, diode-ROM-based add-on math(Trig, etc.), small numeric printer - IBM 1130 (1965) -- Transistor-based(SLT), core memory, cartridge hard-disk, IBM I/O Typewriter, numerous peripherals - DEC PDP-8 (1965) -- Transistor based 12-bit CPU, core memory, teletype I/O, numerous peripherals - Data General Nova (1969) -- IC-based 16-bit CPU, core memory, teletype I/O, numerous peripherals - Wang 2200 (1973) -- IC-based(TTL) deskside CPU, BASIC built-in, cassette tape, solid state memory, CRT display - HP 9830 (1972) -- IC-based desktop, BASIC built-in, cassette tape, solid state memory, LED alphanumeric display, many peripherals These are just a few examples of computers (or in some of the earlier cases, highly programmable calculators) built before and during the '68-73 timeframe that were designed with the intent of an individual interacting directly with the machine. Most ran off of standard residential/office power, required no special air-conditioning, and were simple enough that only a moderate amount of training was required to allow someone to make use of the machines. While the definition of the term "personal computer" varies depending on who is using the term, these machines, and others like them, were designed to be used at a much more personal level than the large-scale mainframe machines housed in the glass-walled rooms where only "special" people were allowed anywhere near them. -Rick --- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Nov 15 14:09:39 2017 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 20:09:39 +0000 Subject: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Nov 15, 2017, at 11:44 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > "400K" generally means Macintosh single sided, not DEC Rainbow, etc For once, the physical format disambiguates those two! The Rainbow disks are in flexible envelopes (and ~1.75? greater diameter). (Got many of each, couldn?t keep them straight otherwise ;-) ) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 15 14:12:20 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 12:12:20 -0800 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE52@mail.bensene.com> References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> <32cad10a-4dbf-0d35-3dc1-4cafdee302ea@ljw.me.uk> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE52@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <3a657345-469e-774b-0369-59ecd7c276a7@sydex.com> On 11/15/2017 11:59 AM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > While the definition of the term "personal computer" varies depending > on who is using the term, these machines, and others like them, were > designed to be used at a much more personal level than the large-scale > mainframe machines housed in the glass-walled rooms where only "special" > people were allowed anywhere near them. How about "small systems", able to be powered solely from a 115V/20A source (or its 220V equivalent)? The PB 250 would certainly fall in this category also. --Chuck From RichA at livingcomputers.org Wed Nov 15 15:28:16 2017 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 21:28:16 +0000 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE52@mail.bensene.com> References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> <32cad10a-4dbf-0d35-3dc1-4cafdee302ea@ljw.me.uk> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE52@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: From: Rick Bensene Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 11:59 AM Grumpy Ol' Fred wrote: >> Yes, 1968-1973 had time-sharing for personal computing, but not "personal >> computers" > While the definition of the term "personal computer" varies depending on who > is using the term, these machines, and others like them, were designed to be > used at a much more personal level than the large-scale mainframe machines > housed in the glass-walled rooms where only "special" people were allowed > anywhere near them. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This, like "Multics never got out of the lab", is a bogo-meme. (Thanks, Neil!) People did not *need* to get near the mainframes in order to do their jobs, unlike the jobs for which the small systems (and you forgot the PDP-11 in your list) were created. Most programming on mainframes was special purpose, batch oriented, data processing connected to accounting systems (GL/AP/AR/PR), and a lot of the rest was high intensity engineering (where at this level even physics is engineering) which needed lots of data handling for short runs. In the latter environment, time sharing was a big win, because multiple people had access to the system for their work, without needing a bunch of underpowered systems assigned to individuals. I grew up in the mainframe world.[1] I liked the idea of timesharing, but it was not important to my job until the administrative DEC-20 was hooked up to the Amdahl v7 via the HASP/RJE front end package for the -20. Suddenly, the EMACS editor which was a toy for me until then because a way to generate JCL and PL/I for the mainframe where my responsibilities lay. I did not need to visit the computer room (several miles away) to do my job. Later, I became a systems programmer on those mainframes, and had physical access to the computers--but not because I was doing anything physical to the hardware. I realize that most people here have an ongoing love affair with small systems. I just want to point out that there were other ways to accomplish some really interesting hacks. Rich [1] My first use of a minicomputer (a PDP-11 of small size, running RT-11) came in grad school, 10 years after I first started programming, in a linguistics class on "Production of Speech": We turned the -11 into a speech synthesizer, for which it was perfectly suited. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From rickb at bensene.com Wed Nov 15 15:57:37 2017 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 13:57:37 -0800 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <3a657345-469e-774b-0369-59ecd7c276a7@sydex.com> References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> <32cad10a-4dbf-0d35-3dc1-4cafdee302ea@ljw.me.uk> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE52@mail.bensene.com> <3a657345-469e-774b-0369-59ecd7c276a7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE53@mail.bensene.com> On 11/15/2017 11:59 AM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > While the definition of the term "personal computer" varies depending > on who is using the term, these machines, and others like them, were > designed to be used at a much more personal level than the large-scale > mainframe machines housed in the glass-walled rooms where only "special" > people were allowed anywhere near them. Chuck responded: >How about "small systems", able to be powered solely from a 115V/20A source (or its 220V equivalent)? >The PB 250 would certainly fall in this category also. Indeed, a notable omission from my list. The PB 250 definitely is in that class of machine, and the unique part about it is that its main memory and register storage was made of recirculating delay lines. This made the machine somewhat slow, but in most cases, a bit faster than most of the tube-based machines with magnetic drum memories. The delay lines could be a little temperamental, but were less expensive than magnetic drums, making the machine a pretty good value for the time. It was fully-transistorized, and had a Friden Flexowriter for I/O. The machine had interfacing capabilities that allowed a number of various I/O devices to be connected to it. The PB 250 benefitted from the design genius of Stanley Frankel, the Manhattan Project nuclear physicist that went into computing after his A-bomb development work had finished. Frankel assisted with many of the design aspects of the PB 250, as well as doing the complete logic design of the LGP-30, which was based on a small machine he built on his own known as MINAC. He also did the design of the SCM/Marchant Cogito 240 & 240SR electronic calculators, as well as the brilliantly-designed, microcoded Diehl Combitron electronic calculator. -Rick --- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From rickb at bensene.com Wed Nov 15 16:39:34 2017 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 14:39:34 -0800 Subject: "Personal" Computers (Was: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers) Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE54@mail.bensene.com> I wrote: >> While the definition of the term "personal computer" varies depending >> on who is using the term, these machines, and others like them, were >> designed to be used at a much more personal level than the large-scale >> mainframe machines housed in the glass-walled rooms where only "special" people were allowed >> anywhere near them. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ To which, Rich A. replied: >This, like "Multics never got out of the lab", is a bogo-meme. (Thanks, Neil!) > People did not *need* to get near the mainframes in order to do their jobs, unlike the jobs for which the small systems > (and you forgot the PDP-11 in your list) were created. Most programming on mainframes was special purpose, batch oriented, data >processing connected to accounting systems (GL/AP/AR/PR), and a lot of the rest was high intensity engineering (where at this level >even physics is engineering) which needed lots of data handling for short runs. Yeah...I can agree with that. But, part of the talk was about getting "up close" with the computer, at a personal level - hands-on. The glass-walled room machines weren't that way, and thus weren't considered "personal computers", for just the reason you mentioned -- the work typically done on them was of a different class of work that didn't require any kind of hands-on activity with the machine (except for the operators, who loaded up the jobs, managed the tapes, and gathered the printouts). The discussion had gone from talk about the IBM 709/709X computers, which were more "glass room" type machines, to discussion about personal computers. I suffered some angst over the discussion of machines like Apple IIs or even Altair 8800's as the first personal computers, when in fact, the general term applied to computers that came long before these machines. Perhaps the glass-room meme isn't so much bogus, as it is a sign of the cultural times. In those days, the big machines were very expensive, and required a lot of support -- that meant special power, air conditioning, raised floors, and highly-trained people. The "management" of these big machine installations had a lot at stake...and as such, they were very protective of their machines, which is most of the reason they were encased in glass (they needed to be glass to be able to show them off without letting people in...in the days, big computer installations were class icons). It wasn't really so much that the work that the consumers (I wouldn't use the word "users" to describe them, because they were never really "using" the machine) of the results of the machines didn't need to have access to the machines...it was more because the management only wanted those who had all the necessary training and knowledge operating the machines to assure the maximum amount of productivity for their multi-million dollar investments to gain the best return on that investment, as well as safety for these "delicate" machines. As for the PDP-11, it was indeed a significant omission. Honestly, I ran out of time. I missed the PB 250, which certainly should have been on the list, and the PDP-11...and I'm sure that there are quite a number of other machines that were missed. Compiling a full list of this class of machines, even during this somewhat limited time period, would be a daunting process. There were many companies that popped up in the 1960s, along with those from established computer makers, that marketed small computers that were generally intended to be used on a single-user basis, by individuals. Examples off the top of my head are Computer Automation (PDC-808), Smith Corona/Marchant SCM 7816, 3M (yes, the adhesive people) 2018, Control Data 160/160-A, Digital Equipment PDP-1, HP 2100-series, Data Acquisition Corp. DAC-512.....it could go on and on. I was writing my message as I was getting ready to head off to work, and had to stop before I ended up being late. -Rick --- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Nov 15 18:25:19 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 19:25:19 -0500 Subject: Playing with HP2640B Message-ID: <1bc6b7.a999612.473e34ef@aol.com> is there a dif between 40 a and 40 b with the firmware/loader/etc? Ed# In a message dated 11/15/2017 12:48:24 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: I have been working on a HP 2640B terminal. It was mostly about fixing the "screen mold" problem and cleaning up the liquids that had been seeping out from the screen down into the bottom. The small coaxial wire that connects the 4.9152 MHz clock signal form the power supply (never seen a crystal controlled SMPSU before!) to the backplane was broken off, but after fixing that the terminal worked fine. Just needed some adjustment to the brightness. With the correct terminfo installed it worked quite well as a serial terminal to a Linux box. Then I tried the short 8008 programs that Christian Corti pointed to http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/hp2644/diag.html and ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/hp2644 I tried both a couple of times. The terminal enter the LOADER mode but just hangs completely at the end. I tried different baudrates but no difference. The selftest STATUS line tell me 40<802 which should indicate that there are 4k memory in the terminal. However there should be 5k since there is one 4k board and one combined control store and 1 k RAM board. Maybe there is a fault in the 1k SRAM? The terminal doesn't complain though. Regardless, the programs listed either starts at adress 30000 or 36000 which should then be within the available space. The question is, should these program work for the HP2640B as well? It has a 8008 but my guess is that the firmware is different from the 2644. What is the joint experience regarding this? Has anyone ran these small programs above on a HP2640B? The HP 2640B firmware consists of four EA 4900 ROM chips which annoyingly are not anything like normal EPROMs. So dumping will need special considerations. Has anyone dumped the HP 2640B firmware already? I didn't find it on bitsavers. /Mattis From schlae at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 18:45:28 2017 From: schlae at gmail.com (Eric Schlaepfer) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 16:45:28 -0800 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <6C6CD3BA-F85B-4D47-893E-1726A7A2D93B@nf6x.net> <15fbddf8cf0-c0c-1bac3@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid out a board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be cheaper for me to buy that instead. I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't use it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300. On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk > wrote: > > > > wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85? > > > > I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :) > > I?ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) > which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the Extended > Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my A > model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the Amigo or > SS-80 protocols. > > I?d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time finding > 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don?t talk, so > that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5? DD > media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other > 3.5? HPIB floppy drives. > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 15 19:06:12 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 17:06:12 -0800 Subject: "Personal" Computers (Was: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers) In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE54@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE54@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <6b766b45-1b14-bd6a-8fc2-dead9c6e3308@sydex.com> On 11/15/2017 02:39 PM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > Perhaps the glass-room meme isn't so much bogus, as it is a sign of > the cultural times. In those days, the big machines were very > expensive, and required a lot of support -- that meant special > power, air conditioning, raised floors, and highly-trained people. > The "management" of these big machine installations had a lot at > stake...and as such, they were very protective of their machines, > which is most of the reason they were encased in glass (they needed > to be glass to be able to show them off without letting people > in...in the days, big computer installations were class icons). Remember also, that this was long before the indoor "no smoking" rules. Many folks smoked like chimneys and just about every installation that I experienced back then prohibited smoking around the machines. Food and drink around the machines was also a definite no-no. Not just to prevent contamination (e.g. dumping your Coke into the keyboard of the operator's console), but also because food attracts vermin, which can do a number on those cables underneath the raised floor. So the "fishbowl" approach made a lot of sense. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Nov 15 19:09:49 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 20:09:49 -0500 Subject: "Personal" Computers (Was: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers) In-Reply-To: <6b766b45-1b14-bd6a-8fc2-dead9c6e3308@sydex.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE54@mail.bensene.com> <6b766b45-1b14-bd6a-8fc2-dead9c6e3308@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1B8322F1-BE3F-44E4-8DCE-6CFD4BD934C6@comcast.net> > On Nov 15, 2017, at 8:06 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/15/2017 02:39 PM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > >> Perhaps the glass-room meme isn't so much bogus, as it is a sign of >> the cultural times. In those days, the big machines were very >> expensive, and required a lot of support -- that meant special >> power, air conditioning, raised floors, and highly-trained people. >> The "management" of these big machine installations had a lot at >> stake...and as such, they were very protective of their machines, >> which is most of the reason they were encased in glass (they needed >> to be glass to be able to show them off without letting people >> in...in the days, big computer installations were class icons). > > Remember also, that this was long before the indoor "no smoking" rules. > Many folks smoked like chimneys and just about every installation that > I experienced back then prohibited smoking around the machines. Then again, our college computer room (1973) was the place where the computer services director was often see, chain smoking away. No mainframe there, but a large PDP-11 and an IBM 1620. Earlier, there was the SAGE computer (the air defense one, not the PC by the same name), which had built-in ash trays at each operator station. paul From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Nov 15 19:11:13 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 17:11:13 -0800 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <6C6CD3BA-F85B-4D47-893E-1726A7A2D93B@nf6x.net> <15fbddf8cf0-c0c-1bac3@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <5B862D7C-19C2-4CBC-9945-85D1A0BE6380@nf6x.net> > On Nov 15, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Eric Schlaepfer wrote: > > It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid out a board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be cheaper for me to buy that instead. > > I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't use it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300. I've just received my PRM-85, and it looks like I have leads on a couple of different floppy drives now. I'll be happy to share my experiences. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Nov 15 19:22:45 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 17:22:45 -0800 Subject: "Personal" Computers (Was: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers) In-Reply-To: <1B8322F1-BE3F-44E4-8DCE-6CFD4BD934C6@comcast.net> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE54@mail.bensene.com> <6b766b45-1b14-bd6a-8fc2-dead9c6e3308@sydex.com> <1B8322F1-BE3F-44E4-8DCE-6CFD4BD934C6@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Nov 15, 2017, at 5:09 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > Earlier, there was the SAGE computer (the air defense one, not the PC by the same name), which had built-in ash trays at each operator station. With all of the possibly apocryphal stories of computer users mistaking CD drive trays for coffee cup holders, I can't help but wonder if anybody has ever mistaken the metallic cartridge slot cavity of the Atari 400/800 for an ash tray with a flip-up lid. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 15 20:01:49 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 20:01:49 -0600 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <0124a5b2-f54f-2708-a0af-bad8339bfc0c@sydex.com> References: <20171115150117.28EC718C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5A0C84B3.1080806@pico-systems.com> <0124a5b2-f54f-2708-a0af-bad8339bfc0c@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5A0CF18D.1000909@pico-systems.com> On 11/15/2017 01:13 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/15/2017 10:17 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> MANY companies were quite bad at making a go of the computer business. >> Xerox is probably legendary, but GE and RCA were certainly also famous >> for this. Honeywell made a LOT of computers in various forms - >> aerospace, minicomputer, industrial controls, etc. But, I guess they >> were incompetent at competing with IBM in the large systems market. >> They were included in the BUNCH, however. > "BUNCH"? Never heard that one before. "Snow White and the Seven > Dwarfs" was the term I always heard. > > Burroughs, UNIVAC, NCR, CDC and Honeywell. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 15 20:03:41 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 20:03:41 -0600 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <3a657345-469e-774b-0369-59ecd7c276a7@sydex.com> References: <20171114033203.A6C8718C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0b9301d35d2c$aa56b630$ff042290$@gmail.com> <32cad10a-4dbf-0d35-3dc1-4cafdee302ea@ljw.me.uk> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE52@mail.bensene.com> <3a657345-469e-774b-0369-59ecd7c276a7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5A0CF1FD.90208@pico-systems.com> On 11/15/2017 02:12 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/15/2017 11:59 AM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > >> While the definition of the term "personal computer" varies depending >> on who is using the term, these machines, and others like them, were >> designed to be used at a much more personal level than the large-scale >> mainframe machines housed in the glass-walled rooms where only "special" >> people were allowed anywhere near them. > How about "small systems", able to be powered solely from a 115V/20A > source (or its 220V equivalent)? > > PDP-5 and LINC certainly fit that requirement. Jon From classiccmp at crash.com Wed Nov 15 20:05:17 2017 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 18:05:17 -0800 Subject: Bringing up the Sprite OS (Berkeley) Message-ID: I'm not sure where one might normally expect to discuss research operating systems from the 1980s and 90s, but since it ran on Sun-2 through Sun-4 and DECstations, I'll start here. I have the Sprite disk image for the DECstation 5000/200 running under GXemul (see https://github.com/OSPreservProject/sprite), but this is a minimal ~80MB image. I'm wondering if anybody has already gone through the exercise of figuring out how to create a new disk image large enough to, for example, load the source tree and see how far it is from compiling. My calendar is full until mid-December, so I won't be taking a swing at this in the next few weeks. But I had a moment and thought I'd start asking if anybody's been down this road in the past decade or two. Thanks, --S. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 15 20:07:43 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 20:07:43 -0600 Subject: "Personal" Computers (Was: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers) In-Reply-To: <1B8322F1-BE3F-44E4-8DCE-6CFD4BD934C6@comcast.net> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE54@mail.bensene.com> <6b766b45-1b14-bd6a-8fc2-dead9c6e3308@sydex.com> <1B8322F1-BE3F-44E4-8DCE-6CFD4BD934C6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5A0CF2EF.50007@pico-systems.com> On 11/15/2017 07:09 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Earlier, there was the SAGE computer (the air defense one, > not the PC by the same name), which had built-in ash trays > at each operator station. Ash trays?? HA, they had auto-style CIGARETTE LIGHTERS BUILT INTO the "radar screen" consoles! Take a look at a photo! Jon From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 21:13:57 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 23:13:57 -0400 Subject: "Personal" Computers (Was: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers) In-Reply-To: <5A0CF2EF.50007@pico-systems.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE54@mail.bensene.com> <6b766b45-1b14-bd6a-8fc2-dead9c6e3308@sydex.com> <1B8322F1-BE3F-44E4-8DCE-6CFD4BD934C6@comcast.net> <5A0CF2EF.50007@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2017-11-15 10:07 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 11/15/2017 07:09 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> Earlier, there was the SAGE computer (the air defense one, not the PC >> by the same name), which had built-in ash trays at each operator >> station. > Ash trays??? HA, they had auto-style CIGARETTE LIGHTERS BUILT INTO the > "radar screen" consoles!? Take a look at a photo! > > Jon The IBM 803 proof machine developed in the late 40s had an ash tray built in, it was the only IBM machine I ever saw that had one.??? I stood right in front of the scopes at a SAGE site but I don't recall the ash trays or lighters. But I do remember the light guns, blue lighting and the aful flash of the high persistance scope when they whrere drawn. Paul. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 15 21:23:46 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 21:23:46 -0600 Subject: "Personal" Computers (Was: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers) In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE54@mail.bensene.com> <6b766b45-1b14-bd6a-8fc2-dead9c6e3308@sydex.com> <1B8322F1-BE3F-44E4-8DCE-6CFD4BD934C6@comcast.net> <5A0CF2EF.50007@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5A0D04C2.7060908@pico-systems.com> On 11/15/2017 09:13 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > > On 2017-11-15 10:07 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/15/2017 07:09 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Earlier, there was the SAGE computer (the air defense >>> one, not the PC by the same name), which had built-in >>> ash trays at each operator station. >> Ash trays?? HA, they had auto-style CIGARETTE LIGHTERS >> BUILT INTO the "radar screen" consoles! Take a look at a >> photo! >> >> Jon > The IBM 803 proof machine developed in the late 40s had an > ash tray built in, it was the only IBM machine I ever saw > that had one. I stood right in front of the scopes at a > SAGE site but I don't recall the ash trays or lighters. > But I do remember the light guns, blue lighting and the > aful flash of the high persistance scope when they whrere > drawn. > > Paul. > Check out this photo : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Automatic_Ground_Environment#/media/File:SAGE_console.jpeg next to the ashtray, there's a little round hole with a chrome ring - that's where a standard car cigarette lighter plugged in. A 6 V lighter would work fine off the massive filament transformers these things had. Jon From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 15 22:11:32 2017 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 04:11:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers References: <815860565.1175457.1510805492118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <815860565.1175457.1510805492118@mail.yahoo.com> On Wed, 11/15/17, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > PDP-5 and LINC certainly fit that requirement. Funny the LINC should come up tonight. Earlier this evening I went to a talk given by Mary Allen Wilkes who was the developer of the system software for the LINC. She had one in her parents' house around the 1965 timeframe. Here's a pic of her with that machine. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Mary_Allen_Wilkes_-_LINC_at_Home_-_1965.jpg Hard not to call the LINC "personal" in that context. BLS From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 22:27:29 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 21:27:29 -0700 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <4091D535-5172-428E-8186-922FBAFE49FF@nf6x.net> References: <15fbdf3a7e0-c0c-d2ae@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net> <4091D535-5172-428E-8186-922FBAFE49FF@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > I think that the upgraded B model ROMs in the PRM-85 are supposed to let it use the newer drives. Yes it does. I have an HP 85A, the PRM 85 and a 9122, and that combo works beautifully. I am not sure I ever tried it with high density diskettes though. I could check that if you want. Marc On Nov 14, 2017, at 9:40 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:33, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > ok back in my day.. I do not think 85 adressed modern drive of 1.44 meg..? so that was what I was going on.. yes if you can use 1.44 do so.. older new media hard to find... I am still new to this HP-85 stuff, but I think you are correct about the A model system not originally handling the 1.44M drive. I think that the upgraded B model ROMs in the PRM-85 are supposed to let it use the newer drives. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 22:42:34 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 21:42:34 -0700 Subject: IBM 360 front panel on ebay Message-ID: The ebay seller of this IBM 360/40 front panel asked me if I could put a link on the list. So here it is: https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-360-model-40-mainframe-CPU-Operator-panel/152780991916 Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with the seller other than he has contacted me after seeing one of my own videos about a 360/50 front panel. Marc From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Nov 15 23:45:43 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 21:45:43 -0800 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <15fbdf3a7e0-c0c-d2ae@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net> <4091D535-5172-428E-8186-922FBAFE49FF@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <17496214-DA83-4459-B607-FCC96960ADF0@nf6x.net> > On Nov 15, 2017, at 8:27 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > >> I think that the upgraded B model ROMs in the PRM-85 are supposed to let it use the newer drives. > Yes it does. I have an HP 85A, the PRM 85 and a 9122, and that combo works beautifully. I am not sure I ever tried it with high density diskettes though. I could check that if you want. Thanks for confirming that, Marc. I just picked up my PRM-85 board today, and it looks like I should be able to purchase a couple of different models of HPIB 3.5" floppy drives from other collectors soonish. Has anybody gotten around to sharing CAD models for a 3D-printable PRM-85 case yet, or shall I get to work on that task? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From stephen.m.pereira.sr at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 16:53:43 2017 From: stephen.m.pereira.sr at gmail.com (Stephen Pereira) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 17:53:43 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 38, Issue 14 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0AA9C3D0-5EEE-41CE-8BE0-7B63FE5A26E8@gmail.com> > On Nov 15, 2017, at 1:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 15:56:31 -0800 > From: "Mark J. Blair" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive > Message-ID: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487 at nf6x.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I just got my HP-85 working for the first time over the weekend (except for its tape drive, which is still a work in progress). I'd like to acquire some accessories for it: > > 1) HP 82903A 16k RAM module > > 2) HP 9122C dual 1.44M 3.2" floppy diskette drive > > Do any of y'all have either of those items available for swap or sale? I'm located in southern California. > > Those two items are at the top of my HP-85 want list, but I might also be interested in other related bits such as the 82940A GPIO Interface, other compatible HPIB mass storage, etc. > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > > > ------------------------------ > Hi Mark, I believe that I have both of those things available. If you?re interested, please contact me at: stephen.m.pereira.sr AT gmail DOT com smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE From lars at nocrew.org Thu Nov 16 00:10:53 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 06:10:53 +0000 Subject: "Personal" Computers In-Reply-To: <6b766b45-1b14-bd6a-8fc2-dead9c6e3308@sydex.com> (Chuck Guzis via cctalk's message of "Wed, 15 Nov 2017 17:06:12 -0800") References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE54@mail.bensene.com> <6b766b45-1b14-bd6a-8fc2-dead9c6e3308@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7wtvxukb2q.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Food and drink around the machines was also a definite no-no. Not just > to prevent contamination (e.g. dumping your Coke into the keyboard of > the operator's console) Coke bottles caught near the DEC-10s MIT-MC and KATIA: http://donhopkins.com/home/catalog/images/mc-console.jpg http://www.qedata.se/bilder/historik/ka10a.jpg From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Nov 16 02:32:41 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 03:32:41 -0500 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive Message-ID: <584122.1da3e157.473ea729@aol.com> PRM-85 ? cost? If I end up getting fascinated with the *% I may want to get one too.. First, I need to get it out and open and see what is all with it.. In a message dated 11/15/2017 5:45:42 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid out a board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be cheaper for me to buy that instead. I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't use it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300. On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk > wrote: > > > > wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85? > > > > I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :) > > I?ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) > which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the Extended > Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my A > model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the Amigo or > SS-80 protocols. > > I?d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time finding > 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don?t talk, so > that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5? DD > media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other > 3.5? HPIB floppy drives. > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Nov 16 03:11:51 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:11:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >> No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A drive >> has no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format. >> ;-) > > "high-density" is even more meaningless than referring to them by their > capacity in a given format. It is a BOGUS marketing term! [...] Fred, you should know by now that you don't need to tell *me* the correct definitions and terms. And with "high-density", I didn't mean the media capacity but the analog recording aspects like coercivity, write current, frequency and so on. > configurations that result in the same final capacities, it is generally > accepted as to WHICH kind of drive/controller configuration is meant by each > of those names. "400K" generally means Macintosh single sided, not DEC > Rainbow, etc. I disagree, that is not generally accepted, at least not any more, and this is good! > Unformatted capacity would be a more correct nomenclature, although not > always precise, and relatively meaningless to the majority of users, who > didn't CARE except for how much space was available to them. Formatted > capacity is generally between 40 and 60 percent of unformatted capacity. Unformatted capacity doesn't tell you much without reference to the recording layout, i.e. no. of tracks, modulation, frequency and so on. > Some specifications: > 8" FM "Single Density" was 360 RPM at 250,000 bits per second. (about 500K > unformatted per side) > > 8" MFM "Double Density" was 360 RPM at 500,000 bits per second. (about 1M > unformatted per side) I beg to differ. The raw bit rate is about the same. With FM, you have a 500kbits/s raw bit rate but half of the bits are clock bits. It is effectively the same density. > 5.25" MFM "High Density" was 360 RPM at 500,000 bits per second. (about 1M > unformatted per side) What about 5?" FM "High Density" at 360 RPM? > 3.5" MFM "High Density" (sometimes called "1.44M", due to the most common > formsat being 1.41 Mebibytes, or 1.44 of a unit of 1000*1024 bytes), were 300 > RPM at 500,000 bits per second. (1M unformatted per side) The Amiga (more exactly, the "HD" Chinon FZ-357A drives used in Amigas) switched to 150 RPM to keep the raw bit rate at 250kbits/s. > 3.5" MFM "ED" (vertical recording?/barrium ferrite) were 300 RPM at 1,000,000 > bits per second. (2M unformatted per side) NeXT referred to theirs by the > unformatted capacity: 4M, further confusing their users. What about FM? Your list just mixes two aspects that are not strictly correlated, raw recording density (bit rate) and data modulation (e.g. FM, MFM). > Can you name another 20 exceptions? (Chuck and Tony probably can) Do you want me to start with things like 100tpi drives, GCR, M?FM, hard-sectored and other crazy formats? Just accept that I am not as dumb as you may think. Christian From lars at nocrew.org Thu Nov 16 03:07:01 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 09:07:01 +0000 Subject: Forth for PDP-8? In-Reply-To: (Maciej W. Rozycki via cctech's message of "Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:44:42 +0000 (GMT)") References: <16ia5tihh85q34m2de3g11ib.1485109250088@email.android.com> <8050eb1b-2a2c-2477-cbf5-4a9bdd518cce@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7wefoyk2x6.fsf_-_@junk.nocrew.org> Kyle Owen wrote: > Just a little bit of cursory looking turned up nothing. Has someone > written a Forth interpreter for PDP-8? Preferably using 24-bit > integers, but I'll take what I can get. OS/8 support would be nice. I recently wrote a Forth cross compiler with PDP-8 support. https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/xForth/tree/master/target/pdp8 From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 05:17:40 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 04:17:40 -0700 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <6C6CD3BA-F85B-4D47-893E-1726A7A2D93B@nf6x.net> <15fbddf8cf0-c0c-1bac3@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Hi Eric, It's not urgent, but when you have a chance, could you dump the 9122C ROM(s) and take high resolution photos of the controller board? Since it does HD, I suspect it probably does not use a 600 RPM mechanism. Thanks! Best regards, Eric On Nov 15, 2017 17:45, "Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk" wrote: > It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid out a > board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be cheaper > for me to buy that instead. > > I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't use > it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300. > > On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > > > wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85? > > > > > > > I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :) > > > > I?ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) > > which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the > Extended > > Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my A > > model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the Amigo > or > > SS-80 protocols. > > > > I?d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time > finding > > 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don?t talk, > so > > that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5? DD > > media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other > > 3.5? HPIB floppy drives. > > > From abuse at mooli.org.uk Thu Nov 16 05:33:34 2017 From: abuse at mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:33:34 +0100 Subject: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <20171116113334.ltc7qeyw6a7nu5am@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 09:44:24AM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: [...] > 3.5" MFM "High Density" (sometimes called "1.44M", due to the most common > formsat being 1.41 Mebibytes, or 1.44 of a unit of 1000*1024 bytes), were > 300 RPM at 500,000 bits per second. (1M unformatted per side) Another oddity for your collection: because the Amiga's floppy controller had a 500kHz maximum clock, they needed custom drives which slowed down to 150RPM when they detected a "HD" disk. Given the Amiga did read-modify-write of whole tracks rather than overwriting individual sectors, the performance of those things was particularly bad. Mercifully, nobody attemted to bodge a quarter-speed ED drive onto the Amiga. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 07:36:36 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 09:36:36 -0400 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <17496214-DA83-4459-B607-FCC96960ADF0@nf6x.net> References: <15fbdf3a7e0-c0c-d2ae@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net> <4091D535-5172-428E-8186-922FBAFE49FF@nf6x.net> <17496214-DA83-4459-B607-FCC96960ADF0@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On 2017-11-16 1:45 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: >> On Nov 15, 2017, at 8:27 PM, Curious Marc wrote: >> >>> I think that the upgraded B model ROMs in the PRM-85 are supposed to let it use the newer drives. >> Yes it does. I have an HP 85A, the PRM 85 and a 9122, and that combo works beautifully. I am not sure I ever tried it with high density diskettes though. I could check that if you want. > > Thanks for confirming that, Marc. I just picked up my PRM-85 board today, and it looks like I should be able to purchase a couple of different models of HPIB 3.5" floppy drives from other collectors soonish. > > Has anybody gotten around to sharing CAD models for a 3D-printable PRM-85 case yet, or shall I get to work on that task? > I used the combination of B model ROMs to support SS/80 with a 9122C and it works fine. Paul. From schlae at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 07:54:55 2017 From: schlae at gmail.com (Eric Schlaepfer) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 05:54:55 -0800 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <6C6CD3BA-F85B-4D47-893E-1726A7A2D93B@nf6x.net> <15fbddf8cf0-c0c-1bac3@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Yep, I've been meaning to do that for a while. On Nov 16, 2017 3:17 AM, "Eric Smith" wrote: > Hi Eric, > > It's not urgent, but when you have a chance, could you dump the 9122C > ROM(s) and take high resolution photos of the controller board? > > Since it does HD, I suspect it probably does not use a 600 RPM mechanism. > > Thanks! > > Best regards, > Eric > > > On Nov 15, 2017 17:45, "Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk" > wrote: > >> It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid out >> a >> board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be >> cheaper >> for me to buy that instead. >> >> I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't use >> it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300. >> >> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85? >> > > >> > >> > I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :) >> > >> > I?ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) >> > which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the >> Extended >> > Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my >> A >> > model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the >> Amigo or >> > SS-80 protocols. >> > >> > I?d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time >> finding >> > 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don?t talk, >> so >> > that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5? DD >> > media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other >> > 3.5? HPIB floppy drives. >> > >> > From ethan at 757.org Thu Nov 16 10:04:47 2017 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 11:04:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cases (display) for beloved ISA cards? Message-ID: Anyone have suggestions on a nice solid plastic case that could hold up to 13" ISA card? Something that isn't terribly larger than the card, but has room for anti static foam cutout for the card, and is clear at least on the top? So far the closest thing I can find would be cases from the jewelery world, but wonder if there is something better. -- : Ethan O'Toole From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Nov 16 10:11:51 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 08:11:51 -0800 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <584122.1da3e157.473ea729@aol.com> References: <584122.1da3e157.473ea729@aol.com> Message-ID: <294796F6-F3E8-4845-9E35-05ACFDBF03AA@nf6x.net> > On Nov 16, 2017, at 00:32, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > PRM-85 ? cost? The PRM-85 is described here: http://vintagecomputers.site90.net/hp85/prm85.htm Its creator frequents the HPSeries80 group, and appears to intermittently decide to make batches of the boards when enough interest accumulates: https://groups.io/g/hpseries80 He announced a run back in June. I expressed interest at the time, and just got mine within the last week. So, plan to be patient if you want one. :) I paid $120 + shipping. I haven't had a chance to plug it in yet. My HP-85 is presently in pieces as I work on its tape drive. It looks like a really neat option, particularly for a new entrant to the Series 80 world who would otherwise need to spend quite a bit of time and money accumulating desired original ROMs, somebody who wants to enhance an A model to do B model things like using SS-80 protocol drives, or somebody who wants to develop their own ROMs. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 10:23:00 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 11:23:00 -0500 Subject: Cases (display) for beloved ISA cards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: IBM's ISA cases come to mind, wonder if these are available, I have this one: http://vintagecomputer.net/ibm/IBM_ISA-Card-Case_Open.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/ibm/IBM_ISA-Card-Case_Closed.jpg Bill On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone have suggestions on a nice solid plastic case that could hold up to > 13" ISA card? Something that isn't terribly larger than the card, but has > room for anti static foam cutout for the card, and is clear at least on the > top? > > So far the closest thing I can find would be cases from the jewelery > world, but wonder if there is something better. > > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > > From ethan at 757.org Thu Nov 16 10:37:30 2017 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 11:37:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cases (display) for beloved ISA cards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > IBM's ISA cases come to mind, wonder if these are available, I have this > one: > http://vintagecomputer.net/ibm/IBM_ISA-Card-Case_Open.jpg > http://vintagecomputer.net/ibm/IBM_ISA-Card-Case_Closed.jpg > Bill Neat!!! -- : Ethan O'Toole From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Nov 16 10:43:02 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:43:02 -0600 Subject: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers In-Reply-To: <815860565.1175457.1510805492118@mail.yahoo.com> References: <815860565.1175457.1510805492118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <815860565.1175457.1510805492118@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5A0DC016.9050401@pico-systems.com> On 11/15/2017 10:11 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 11/15/17, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> PDP-5 and LINC certainly fit that requirement. > > Funny the LINC should come up tonight. Earlier this evening > I went to a talk given by Mary Allen Wilkes who was the > developer of the system software for the LINC. She had one > in her parents' house around the 1965 timeframe. Here's > a pic of her with that machine. > > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Mary_Allen_Wilkes_-_LINC_at_Home_-_1965.jpg > > Hard not to call the LINC "personal" in that context. > > Oh, wow! I had no idea she was still around! We had a memorial service for Wesley Clark about a year ago, he did most of the design of the LINC. The LINC was pretty revolutionary for user interface on a small, 12-bit computer. You got a 5" oscilloscope screen with about 12 short lines of characters to edit, see the file directory, etc. It could also be used to display graphs. Jon Jon From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 11:03:24 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 18:03:24 +0100 Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: <1bc6b7.a999612.473e34ef@aol.com> References: <1bc6b7.a999612.473e34ef@aol.com> Message-ID: 2017-11-16 1:25 GMT+01:00 : > is there a dif between 40 a and 40 b with the firmware/loader/etc? > Ed# > I assume there are a difference. The document linked to below at least tell that the original A had a completely different set of ROM chips whilst rev date "April 76" only had the first ROM different. The three others were the same. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/terminal/HP_262x_264x_roms.pdf > > In a message dated 11/15/2017 12:48:24 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > I have been working on a HP 2640B terminal. It was mostly about fixing the > "screen mold" problem and cleaning up the liquids that had been seeping out > from the screen down into the bottom. > > The small coaxial wire that connects the 4.9152 MHz clock signal form the > power supply (never seen a crystal controlled SMPSU before!) to the > backplane was broken off, but after fixing that the terminal worked fine. > Just needed some adjustment to the brightness. > > With the correct terminfo installed it worked quite well as a serial > terminal to a Linux box. > > Then I tried the short 8008 programs that Christian Corti pointed to > > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/hp2644/diag.html > > and > > ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/hp2644 > > I tried both a couple of times. The terminal enter the LOADER mode but just > hangs completely at the end. I tried different baudrates but no difference. > > The selftest STATUS line tell me 40<802 which should indicate that there > are 4k memory in the terminal. However there should be 5k since there is > one 4k board and one combined control store and 1 k RAM board. Maybe there > is a fault in the 1k SRAM? The terminal doesn't complain though. > > Regardless, the programs listed either starts at adress 30000 or 36000 > which should then be within the available space. > > The question is, should these program work for the HP2640B as well? It has > a 8008 but my guess is that the firmware is different from the 2644. What > is the joint experience regarding this? Has anyone ran these small programs > above on a HP2640B? > > The HP 2640B firmware consists of four EA 4900 ROM chips which annoyingly > are not anything like normal EPROMs. So dumping will need special > considerations. > > Has anyone dumped the HP 2640B firmware already? I didn't find it on > bitsavers. > > /Mattis > > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Thu Nov 16 09:48:55 2017 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:48:55 -0500 Subject: DEC Keyboards with sticky keys Message-ID: <2c7ed306-f426-b95c-7fd3-d0e08d4ce519@comcast.net> I have a couple of LK401 keyboards and they generate a 'keyboard error - 4' error on power up test when attached to a VT420.? The problem seems to be one or more keys that are 'stuck on'. When the keyboard is turned upside down and shaken I can get the self test to pass. Is it possible to open the keyboards and repair this type of problem? I also have LK411 keyboards that have a PS/2 type of connector, is there an adapter to let me use these keyboards instead of the LK401s?? Are the signals the same, only the connectors being different? Doug From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 09:59:50 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:59:50 -0500 Subject: DEC Keyboards with sticky keys In-Reply-To: <2c7ed306-f426-b95c-7fd3-d0e08d4ce519@comcast.net> References: <2c7ed306-f426-b95c-7fd3-d0e08d4ce519@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have a couple of LK401 keyboards and they generate a 'keyboard error - > 4' error on power up test when attached to a VT420. The problem seems to > be one or more keys that are 'stuck on'. > > When the keyboard is turned upside down and shaken I can get the self test > to pass. > > Is it possible to open the keyboards and repair this type of problem? > > I also have LK411 keyboards that have a PS/2 type of connector, is there > an adapter to let me use these keyboards instead of the LK401s? Are the > signals the same, only the connectors being different? > > Doug > > Try this? http://microvax2.org/wp/2017/05/24/lk402-aa-keyboard-fix/ If this is like your keyboard, you can use a product called Keypad-fix From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Nov 16 14:30:08 2017 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:30:08 -0800 Subject: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On 11/15/17, 9:44 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk" wrote: > >Can you name another 20 exceptions? (Chuck and Tony probably can) > > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com ?Floptical? disks 720 rpm 1.6 Mb/s transfer 1250 TPI and 25MB unformatted capacity LS-120 and LS-240 (which sadly I can?t remember the specs of :( From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 16 14:51:19 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:51:19 -0800 Subject: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On 11/16/2017 12:30 PM, Geoffrey Reed via cctalk wrote: > ?Floptical? disks 720 rpm 1.6 Mb/s transfer 1250 TPI and 25MB unformatted > capacity > > LS-120 and LS-240 (which sadly I can?t remember the specs of :( How about the Caleb "it" drive (UHD144): http://www.obsoletemedia.org/caleb-uhd144/ I've still got a stack of those drives and media. Or the DTC "TakeTen" drive (got the drive but no media), or the Qume Hyperflex drive or the Kodak/Drivetec floppy drives or the DTC TeamMate for Apple... The list is very long indeed. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 16:28:19 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 23:28:19 +0100 Subject: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On 16 November 2017 at 21:30, Geoffrey Reed via cctalk wrote: > > ?Floptical? disks 720 rpm 1.6 Mb/s transfer 1250 TPI and 25MB unformatted > capacity Just FYI, your quote marks render on Linux as superscript 2s. Using an Apple device? You might want to turn off smart quotes... https://www.jordanmerrick.com/posts/ios-11-smart-punctuation/ http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/09/26/tips-turn-off-ios-11-smart-punctuation-to-avoid-data-entry-problems -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 16 17:27:53 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 15:27:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: >>> No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A drive >>> has no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format. >>> ;-) >> >> "high-density" is even more meaningless than referring to them by their >> capacity in a given format. It is a BOGUS marketing term! On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > Fred, you should know by now that you don't need to tell *me* the correct > definitions and terms. I know that, but I was addressing the entire group with my rant, and not everybody is as closely familiar with these details as you are. > And with "high-density", I didn't mean the media capacity but the analog > recording aspects like coercivity, write current, frequency and so on. Actually, when speaking about the MEDIA, it is much easier to create a name that is both accurate and unambiguous. For example, with 5.25" disks, we have "5.25 inch with 300 Oersted" and "5.25 inch with 600 Oersted". Of course, if somebody wants to be difficult, there are still variant forms, including both 10 and 16 sector hard-sectored, Amlyn 600 Oersted with special cutouts for the disk changer, Twiggy, no-notch disks for some minor tamper resistance in software distribution, etc. >> Unformatted capacity would be a more correct nomenclature, although ... > Unformatted capacity doesn't tell you much without reference to the recording > layout, i.e. no. of tracks, modulation, frequency and so on. True. >> Some specifications: >> 5.25" MFM "High Density" was 360 RPM at 500,000 bits per second. (about 1M >> unformatted per side) > > What about 5?" FM "High Density" at 360 RPM? By "Some specifications", I meant specifications of SOME examples of the most common form of each size. I was absolutely not intending it to be an exhaustive, comprehensive list of all possibilities. > The Amiga (more exactly, the "HD" Chinon FZ-357A drives used in Amigas) > switched to 150 RPM to keep the raw bit rate at 250kbits/s. THAT is exactly what I was including as examples in my later "exceptions" list. Although a different disk size, that is the same engineering kludge as the Weltec 5.25" 180RPM drive. >> 3.5" MFM "ED" (vertical recording?/barrium ferrite) were 300 RPM at >> 1,000,000 bits per second. (2M unformatted per side) NeXT referred to >> theirs by the unformatted capacity: 4M, further confusing their users. > What about FM? Again, just listing examples of most common, NOT intending it as a list of all possibilities that were theoretically possible. I have never seen an ED disk recorded FM, and do not believe that there was ever a commercial system that used that. If you know of one, please give us the details! >> Can you name another 20 exceptions? (Chuck and Tony probably can) > > Do you want me to start with things like 100tpi drives, GCR, M?FM, > hard-sectored and other crazy formats? It can be a very long list. I was trying to stick with ones that were very close to the main branch of our "current" evolutionary tree, but there isn't a clear boundary. I estimate that there were approximately 2500 different microcomputer floppy disk formats, with a large portion of those being variant forms, not just different choices of number and size of sectors, directory location and structure, etc. I implemented just over 400 formats in XenoCopy that were straight-forward to handle with IBM PC hardware. Those are not all that could have been implemented, nor does it deny the existence of many variants, or completely different ones that are not feasable with PC. > Just accept that I am not as dumb as you may think. I have NEVER thought that you were dumb. Everything that I have seen of your posts has been competent and well-informed. But, I don't think that you follow what I was attempting to convey. I wanted to: 1) rant about marketing creating terminology, including "double density" and "high density". And creating a new definition of Megabyte (1,024,000) for the "1.44M" format (1,474,560 bytes/1.40625Mebibytes) 2) state my opinion that using the specific one that comprises at least 75%? of the use of a given configuration as the name for that configuration creates a name that is admittedly inaccurate, and fraught with exceptions, nevertheless relatively unambiguous, at least to the extent that purchases will usually be usable. If I buy "360K diskette", it will usually be the 300 Oersted 5.25 inch, and be the closest of what is available to buy for 87.5K TRS80, Apple2, PET, Osborne, PC 160K/180K/320K/360K, DEC Rainbow, Canon AS100, Elcompco, Eagle, Otrona, etc. Yes, there were people who used 41 or 42 tracks of a 40 track drive, but I consider those to be "corner cases", to be considered as alterations, not as the main form. Admittedly, there were differences in testing between SSSD, DSSD, DSSD, DSDD, and 48tpi v 96tpi marketing of disks with the same chmical formulation. Purchasing diskettes now for something such as a DEC Rainbow, I would settle for the 360K testing. If I buy "720K 3.5 inch diskette", I expect to receive 600 Oersted 3.5" If I buy "1.44M Diskette", I expect to receive a "HD" 3.5 inch diskette, with about 720 to 780 Oersted. BUT, as you've pointed out, when we refer to the DRIVE, we can't really be certain that it won't be misinterpreted unless we list every spec that we expect it to conform to. Or order by manufacturers model number. Shugart/Matsushita 455/465/475 Tandon TM100-2/TM100-4 Teac 55B, 55F, 55G, 55FG, etc. (EXAMPLES. NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS A "complete" LIST) BTW, Tandon made a 100tpi drive (TM100-4M) for Micropolis compatability, but many/most? of those are mislabelled "TM100-4" (missing that critical 'M' modifier!) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 21:16:08 2017 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 21:16:08 -0600 Subject: TI NaturalLink Disks and Docs Message-ID: I have imaged disks and scanned docs for an old software authoring tool from Texas Instruments, "NaturalLink". It runs on early IBM PCs and was included with some docs I was given for the TI Professional Computer, an almost-PC clone. There are a number of ads and articles about NaturalLink in the various trade mags available via Google Books. The docs are here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FTI/NaturalLink And the disk images are here: http://nocarrier.net/archive/floppy_images/PC/TI/NaturalLink/ Regular 360k MS-DOS images. I haven't tried them in DOSBox yet but it'll probably run there. I have the original manuals, along with some other Professional Computer manuals that were already on Bitsavers, free for shipping if anyone wants them. They're not light. I can include the NaturalLink disks as well, otherwise those will stay in my library. Unfortunately I don't have any of the (special format) OS media for the Professional. Enjoy! -j From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 22:11:57 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 20:11:57 -0800 Subject: HP 9836U processor mystery... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 4:52 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk > wrote: > > > I'm curious if other people out there with 9836U's can confirm whether > their > > machine has a 68000 or a 68010 in it, I'd just like to settle the > internet > > discrepancy once and for all :). > > Mine identifies the CPU as a 68010 in the power-on diagnostic. But from > what > I remember the PGA socket could also take a 68012 (with extra address pins > brought out). I don't have such a chip, so no idea what it would identify > as. > I picked up a 68012 (cheap) and stuck in in the 9836U this evening. It works, and is identified as a 68012 during power-up diagnostics. So now we know. Now what am I gonna do with all that address space? :) - Josh > > -tony > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 01:12:54 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 23:12:54 -0800 Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What did you do for the screen mold? Hot wire method to separate CRT from implosion window? Put the CRT in a hot water bath? Chip at the glue? Marc On Nov 15, 2017, at 11:48 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: I have been working on a HP 2640B terminal. It was mostly about fixing the "screen mold" problem and cleaning up the liquids that had been seeping out from the screen down into the bottom. The small coaxial wire that connects the 4.9152 MHz clock signal form the power supply (never seen a crystal controlled SMPSU before!) to the backplane was broken off, but after fixing that the terminal worked fine. Just needed some adjustment to the brightness. With the correct terminfo installed it worked quite well as a serial terminal to a Linux box. Then I tried the short 8008 programs that Christian Corti pointed to http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/hp2644/diag.html and ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/hp2644 I tried both a couple of times. The terminal enter the LOADER mode but just hangs completely at the end. I tried different baudrates but no difference. The selftest STATUS line tell me 40<802 which should indicate that there are 4k memory in the terminal. However there should be 5k since there is one 4k board and one combined control store and 1 k RAM board. Maybe there is a fault in the 1k SRAM? The terminal doesn't complain though. Regardless, the programs listed either starts at adress 30000 or 36000 which should then be within the available space. The question is, should these program work for the HP2640B as well? It has a 8008 but my guess is that the firmware is different from the 2644. What is the joint experience regarding this? Has anyone ran these small programs above on a HP2640B? The HP 2640B firmware consists of four EA 4900 ROM chips which annoyingly are not anything like normal EPROMs. So dumping will need special considerations. Has anyone dumped the HP 2640B firmware already? I didn't find it on bitsavers. /Mattis From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 01:25:43 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 23:25:43 -0800 Subject: Cases (display) for beloved ISA cards? Message-ID: I use shadow boxes from Michael's to display my boards. They have many kinds http://www.michaels.com/-black-shadowbox-studio-decor/M10322044.html?dwvar_M10322044_color=Black Marc On Nov 16, 2017, at 8:04 AM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: This message has no content. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Nov 17 03:09:58 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 10:09:58 +0100 (CET) Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, CuriousMarc wrote: > What did you do for the screen mold? Hot wire method to separate CRT > from implosion window? Put the CRT in a hot water bath? Chip at the > glue? Marc What we did on one of our 2645 terminals was the hot wire method. We then attached the "implosion" window to the inner of the case. BTW is it really an implosion protection? I don't think so because since the 60s, practically all CRTs have a so-called "integral implosion protection" (thick glass on the front and metal band around the edge). I think it is just an anti-glare filter glass. OTOH American CRTs may be completely different in this aspect compared to European ones. Christian From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 03:10:25 2017 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 20:10:25 +1100 Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A317C7-55D2-49BC-892D-460322C6EDB8@gmail.com> Marc, in addition to Mattis? forthcoming reply, my recent experience with a moldy 2624A was that the hot wire method was very poor. Too hard to get the wire in, didn?t melt the ?glue? very well, smelly. Gave up when the wire broke. What worked best for me was a flat blade screwdriver that was small enough to sit sideways in the gap between the front glass and the tube. I sliced sections of the glue and picked them out with a hook. I also squirted in a combination of RP7 and household cleaner but not sure either did anything other than lubricate the surfaces - they may have helped lift the glue a bit. My ?glue? was like a layer of silicon rubber which hung on for as long as possible but I got it all off without any damage. I replaced the front glass and held it on with a bead of black silicon rubber used for shower glass. I spaced it from the tube with pieces of wire around the edges and pulled them out when the silicon dried. Worked well for me but keen to hear how Mattis went. I didn?t try the hot water soak but it would probably help. David Collins > On 17 Nov 2017, at 6:12 pm, CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote: > > What did you do for the screen mold? Hot wire method to separate CRT from implosion window? Put the CRT in a hot water bath? Chip at the glue? > Marc > > > > On Nov 15, 2017, at 11:48 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > I have been working on a HP 2640B terminal. It was mostly about fixing the > "screen mold" problem and cleaning up the liquids that had been seeping out > from the screen down into the bottom. > > The small coaxial wire that connects the 4.9152 MHz clock signal form the > power supply (never seen a crystal controlled SMPSU before!) to the > backplane was broken off, but after fixing that the terminal worked fine. > Just needed some adjustment to the brightness. > > With the correct terminfo installed it worked quite well as a serial > terminal to a Linux box. > > Then I tried the short 8008 programs that Christian Corti pointed to > > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/hp2644/diag.html > > and > > ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/hp2644 > > I tried both a couple of times. The terminal enter the LOADER mode but just > hangs completely at the end. I tried different baudrates but no difference. > > The selftest STATUS line tell me 40<802 which should indicate that there > are 4k memory in the terminal. However there should be 5k since there is > one 4k board and one combined control store and 1 k RAM board. Maybe there > is a fault in the 1k SRAM? The terminal doesn't complain though. > > Regardless, the programs listed either starts at adress 30000 or 36000 > which should then be within the available space. > > The question is, should these program work for the HP2640B as well? It has > a 8008 but my guess is that the firmware is different from the 2644. What > is the joint experience regarding this? Has anyone ran these small programs > above on a HP2640B? > > The HP 2640B firmware consists of four EA 4900 ROM chips which annoyingly > are not anything like normal EPROMs. So dumping will need special > considerations. > > Has anyone dumped the HP 2640B firmware already? I didn't find it on > bitsavers. > > /Mattis From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 03:13:00 2017 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 20:13:00 +1100 Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> Christian do you know the gauge of the wire you used ? And the current? Maybe I should try that approach again! David Collins > On 17 Nov 2017, at 8:09 pm, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > >> On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, CuriousMarc wrote: >> What did you do for the screen mold? Hot wire method to separate CRT from implosion window? Put the CRT in a hot water bath? Chip at the glue? Marc > > What we did on one of our 2645 terminals was the hot wire method. We then attached the "implosion" window to the inner of the case. > > BTW is it really an implosion protection? I don't think so because since the 60s, practically all CRTs have a so-called "integral implosion protection" (thick glass on the front and metal band around the edge). I think it is just an anti-glare filter glass. OTOH American CRTs may be completely different in this aspect compared to European ones. > > Christian From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 04:52:47 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 11:52:47 +0100 Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> References: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> Message-ID: The screen on my HP2640 had degenerated quite far. It was only a spot in the middle, 2 by 4 inch, that still attached the glass to the CRT. I used a thin fish fillet knife to dig through the remaining glue. Before https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23622163_10155696765784985_6518064439030378363_n.jpg?oh=44cbf7f7f00d6e25155c208124e20a38&oe=5AA7349D The result after: https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23621971_10155696757184985_1959733265676657917_n.jpg?oh=36a20689c0fb5a16de7fc4df138a40e0&oe=5A9993B1 Anyhow, I researched the glue a bit. The glue is, as far as I understand, PVAc (PolyVinylAcetate, sometimes also known as PVA). PVAc is not soluble in water. It takes quite high temperature to melt it. However PVAc is soluble in many esters. I bought some Butylacetate. It dissolves sample bits of glue from HP2640 quite well and rapidly. Butylacetate has quite high boiling temperature (about 120 degrees centigrade) and thus does not evaporate that quickly. So my idea is now to test on a 2645 screen or VR201 screen by adding some butylacetate and seal with some thin plastic wrap foil and let it dissolve a bit. Then use the fish fillet knife again and repeat the process. /Mattis From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Nov 17 06:12:29 2017 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 13:12:29 +0100 Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: References: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004401d35f9d$57dcf900$0796eb00$@xs4all.nl> I did it by heating the crt to about 50-60 degrees celsius and used a putty-knife. https://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/albums/72157689357633754 The photos are from a Philips P2000M system but I did it the same way with my 264X terminals and 9845's systems. It takes about half an hour to heat and separate the screen from the crt . -Rik > The screen on my HP2640 had degenerated quite far. It was only a spot in the > middle, 2 by 4 inch, that still attached the glass to the CRT. I used a thin fish fillet > knife to dig through the remaining glue. > > Before > > https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0- > 9/23622163_10155696765784985_6518064439030378363_n.jpg?oh=44cbf7f7f > 00d6e25155c208124e20a38&oe=5AA7349D > > The result after: > > https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0- > 9/23621971_10155696757184985_1959733265676657917_n.jpg?oh=36a20689 > c0fb5a16de7fc4df138a40e0&oe=5A9993B1 > > > Anyhow, I researched the glue a bit. The glue is, as far as I understand, PVAc > (PolyVinylAcetate, sometimes also known as PVA). PVAc is not soluble in water. > It takes quite high temperature to melt it. However PVAc is soluble in many > esters. I bought some Butylacetate. It dissolves sample bits of glue from HP2640 > quite well and rapidly. Butylacetate has quite high boiling temperature (about > 120 degrees centigrade) and thus does not evaporate that quickly. So my idea is > now to test on a 2645 screen or VR201 screen by adding some butylacetate and > seal with some thin plastic wrap foil and let it dissolve a bit. Then use the fish > fillet knife again and repeat the process. > > /Mattis From lproven at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 07:30:20 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 14:30:20 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS Message-ID: I hope this is vintage enough. I've been playing around some more with my projects to create VMs / bootable USB keys with PC DOS 7.1 and DR-DOS. Right now I'm focusing on DR-DOS 7.1 and the DR OpenDOS Enhancement Project, because that's FOSS and AFAICS it can be redistributed, which I can't with DR-DOS 7.02/7.03/7.04/7.05 or DR-DOS 8/8.1, which were commercially licensed. I found a download of the last build released: https://archiveos.org/drdos/ First, it's the wrong size. VirtualBox can't mount it. VMware can. I truncated it to exactly 2880 sectors using the advice from ``jleg094'' here: https://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39141 VBox mounts that. But it won't boot, nor in VMware -- it just displays 2 dots and freezes. Embarrassingly late in the troubleshooting process, I've found why. I didn't think to check what was on the image! Foolish of me. I mounted it on a pre-booted VM and looked, and it's blank! There's nothing in the image at all. So, I mounted the empty image file as a loop device, copied the boot files in there and then the rest of the files in the distro archive. And lo, it works! It boots my VM just fine, and it's now running 7.01-08. All I need to do now is work out how to make the hard disk bootable, and I'm in business. The DR-DOS 7 SYS command won't do it, as the files aren't named IBMBIOS.COM and IBMSYS.COM -- they're DRBIO.SYS and DRSYS.SYS. I copied them to the expected names. SYS completes but the disk won't boot. Next step will be to try with Norton Disk Doctor. Anyway, if anyone wants a bootable diskette image with DR-DOS 7.01-08, complete with FAT32 support -- apparently it can even boot from it -- let me know. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 08:28:21 2017 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 08:28:21 -0600 Subject: TI NaturalLink Disks and Docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 16, 2017 21:16, "Jason T" wrote: I have the original manuals, along with some other Professional Computer manuals that were already on Bitsavers, free for shipping if anyone wants them. They're not light. Oops, forgot to mention location. I'm in the USA, near Chicago. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 09:10:21 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:10:21 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Might be more helpful to include downloads! I'm still working on VMs, but I know have bootable diskette images of both. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time either has been made available. DR-DOS 7.08 is here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cz8nrdv7h4sgr6o/drdep7018.zip?dl=0 You'll need the rest of DR-DOS 7.01 to install a complete OS but that's widely available. A bootable PC DOS 7.1 diskette image is here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zsujtvp0gs44qcx/PCDOS71.vfd?dl=0 This is a VirtualBox disk image, containing the PC-DOS 7.1 files from the IBM ServerGuide Scripting Toolkit, as made available by IBM and described here: http://toogam.com/software/archive/opsys/dos/ibmpcdos/getpcd71.htm If you get that first, AIUI that gives you a licence to a personal-use copy. I have not modified these files in any way except to combine the separately-downloadable files and the boot disk image, and to remove any non-PC DOS files from the disk image. Again, the rest of the OS must be taken from a copy of PC DOS 7.01. That too is widely available. Feedback welcomed. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 09:12:08 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:12:08 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is *not* my day. I don't know how a copy-and-paste of some plain text magically acquired attachments; that was not intentional. My apologies. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 09:12:55 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 10:12:55 -0500 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a few original Dr dos disks. Versions 5, 6, 7. Would these help if I am imaged and uploaded to my site? Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Nov 17, 2017 10:10 AM, "Liam Proven via cctalk" wrote: > Might be more helpful to include downloads! > > I'm still working on VMs, but I know have bootable diskette images of > both. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time either has > been made available. > > DR-DOS 7.08 is here: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/cz8nrdv7h4sgr6o/drdep7018.zip?dl=0 > > You'll need the rest of DR-DOS 7.01 to install a complete OS but > that's widely available. > > A bootable PC DOS 7.1 diskette image is here: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/zsujtvp0gs44qcx/PCDOS71.vfd?dl=0 > > This is a VirtualBox disk image, containing the PC-DOS 7.1 files from > the IBM ServerGuide Scripting Toolkit, as made available by IBM and > described here: > > http://toogam.com/software/archive/opsys/dos/ibmpcdos/getpcd71.htm > > If you get that first, AIUI that gives you a licence to a personal-use > copy. I have not modified these files in any way except to combine the > separately-downloadable files and the boot disk image, and to remove > any non-PC DOS files from the disk image. > > Again, the rest of the OS must be taken from a copy of PC DOS 7.01. > That too is widely available. > > Feedback welcomed. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 09:35:13 2017 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 10:35:13 -0500 Subject: Cases (display) for beloved ISA cards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I mounted a core memory plane in a shadowbox from Target and used a large paperclip cut into sections as the mount hardware. Folded over and hot-glued one end to the read of the shadowbox backing, placed the memory plane at the desired height and folded over the other end of the paperclip section. I also put a piece of heatshrink tubing on the paperclip end that contacted the memory plane soas not to scratch it. Pictures: https://photos.app.goo.gl/dzSX21lOC34MaJxm2 =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 2:25 AM, CuriousMarc via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I use shadow boxes from Michael's to display my boards. They have many > kinds > http://www.michaels.com/-black-shadowbox-studio-decor/ > M10322044.html?dwvar_M10322044_color=Black > Marc > > > > On Nov 16, 2017, at 8:04 AM, Ethan via cctalk > wrote: > > This message has no content. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 17 09:44:16 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 07:44:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2017, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > I have a few original Dr dos disks. Versions 5, 6, 7. Would these help if > I am imaged and uploaded to my site? > Liam, if you need me to I can build a full distro of OpenDOS 7 - I've got a machine that I can build the original sources on. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 09:52:08 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:52:08 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 17 November 2017 at 16:12, william degnan wrote: > I have a few original Dr dos disks. Versions 5, 6, 7. Would these help if > I am imaged and uploaded to my site? What I'd suggest is checking what's there first. :-) I have DR-DOS 6, from VetusWare. There's a copy on WinWorld but it's some homemade disks, lacking an installer, IIRC. I have physical media from the early 1990s somewhere! I have DR-DOS 7.01/02/03/04/05/8.0/8.1 mostly from WinWorld . I own an original open source release of 7.01, including sources, direct from Caldera, on CD. This is from before they changed their mind and back-pedalled. I have a full boxed copy of PC DOS 7. It was distributed with Microsoft Virtual PC, which itself is a free download now. So the VM is out there and freely available. My VM is built from the free download version, with ViewMax taken from the download of DR DOS 6. I have a working VM of PC DOS 7.1 but I'm still working on that. I don't currently have a bootable USB of it -- making new bootable volumes is non-trivial. It's not as simple as SYS or FORMAT /S, alas. Neither works. I don't think it was meant to, TBH. Ditto the later OEM releases of DR DOS 7.04/05 -- these were only on Disk Manager and PartitionMagic boot disks, AFAIK. The whole OS was not updated. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 10:03:25 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 17:03:25 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 17 November 2017 at 16:44, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > Liam, if you need me to I can build a full distro of OpenDOS 7 - I've got a > machine that I can build the original sources on. Thanks! For now, I'm trying to avoid building anything. I believe that the build process is horribly complex -- I can find the link to a description of the horrors somewhere. Something like 9 different compilers are apparently used. So I hope not to need that, but appreciate the offer! What I am planning to do is combine the released boot files for PC-DOS 7.1 and DR-DOS 7.01-8, both with FAT32 and LBA support, with the rest of the released OSes of both, to make something as complete as possible. My plan is then to add on top of that a graphical shell -- DOSSHELL for PC DOS, ViewMax for DR DOS. And then add some useful shareware/freeware utilities and apps, to make a complete useful working environment, for example able to boot off a USB stick for a distraction-free, non-Internet-capable, writing tool. There seems to be considerable interest in such things these days, and of course, the problem with apps that provide distraction-free clean-screen writing/editing environments is that you can always just switch apps to something else. I have DESQview and DESQview/X running in a VM, but not on bare metal. QEMM seems to have problems on 21st century PC hardware, which is perhaps unsurprising. On one of my own Lenovo notebooks, I have a bootable partition with PC DOS 7.01, MS Word 6, WordPerfect 6.2, Norton Utilities and some other tools. With power management, but not networking or anything. This works for me, but they can't be distributed; they're licensed tools. MS Word 5.5 is a free download, though. I was planning to add tools such as PC Write, PC Outline, As-Easy-As, WordPerfect Editor, a Norton Commander clone -- stuff that _is_ distributable. I also need to add a current DOS antivirus, unfortunately. I think there still are some. The theory is to produce something functionally rich that runs in a VM -- because then I know the hardware environment and can configure things for it. And something much less functionally-rich that can boot and run off a USB stick on almost any hardware. DR-DOS should be re-distributable. PC DOS, I fear not, at least not fully legitimately. But my download diskette image contains nothing that IBM itself currently does not offer for free unrestricted download. I'm hoping that the company will tolerate that, at least. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 17 10:20:06 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 08:20:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2017, Liam Proven wrote: > On 17 November 2017 at 16:44, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> >> Liam, if you need me to I can build a full distro of OpenDOS 7 - I've got a >> machine that I can build the original sources on. > > Thanks! > > For now, I'm trying to avoid building anything. I believe that the > build process is horribly complex -- I can find the link to a > description of the horrors somewhere. Something like 9 different > compilers are apparently used. > If you've got the same MRS disc that Roger sent me, you've got the whole build environment already. You can kick it off with a single command. The only caveat is that you need to boot into OpenDOS/DR-DOS in order to get enough free lower RAM to run the build process. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From schlae at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 11:04:07 2017 From: schlae at gmail.com (Eric Schlaepfer) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 09:04:07 -0800 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <6C6CD3BA-F85B-4D47-893E-1726A7A2D93B@nf6x.net> <15fbddf8cf0-c0c-1bac3@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Check your email. How can you tell if it uses a 600 RPM mechanism or not? On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Hi Eric, > > It's not urgent, but when you have a chance, could you dump the 9122C > ROM(s) and take high resolution photos of the controller board? > > Since it does HD, I suspect it probably does not use a 600 RPM mechanism. > > Thanks! > > Best regards, > Eric > > > On Nov 15, 2017 17:45, "Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk" > wrote: > >> It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid out >> a >> board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be >> cheaper >> for me to buy that instead. >> >> I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't use >> it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300. >> >> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85? >> > > >> > >> > I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :) >> > >> > I?ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) >> > which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the >> Extended >> > Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my >> A >> > model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the >> Amigo or >> > SS-80 protocols. >> > >> > I?d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time >> finding >> > 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don?t talk, >> so >> > that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5? DD >> > media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other >> > 3.5? HPIB floppy drives. >> > >> > From petermallan at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 11:24:00 2017 From: petermallan at gmail.com (Peter Allan) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 17:24:00 +0000 Subject: Manchester University Joint System in the 1970s Message-ID: I was a student at Manchester University from 1974 to 1980. During that time I used the University of Manchester Regional Computer Centre (UMRCC) computer system. The so-called Joint System consisted of a CDC 7600 with an ICL 1906A front end. We used to submit card decks via a Systime (a PDP-11 clone, I believe) that functioned as a remote job entry service. I am trying to find out information about the structure of those card decks (mine were used for shopping lists years ago), and in particular, what the first card in the deck was that routed the job to the correct computer. I have found information about JOB cards for both ICL computers running George 3 and for the CDC 7600 running SCOPE 2.1 (which is what the computers ran), but I believe that neither of these gives the full story about what we used on the Joint System. Does anyone who used this system, or similar ones in the UK, recall anything relevant? If you have suggestions about where else to post this query, I would be grateful for that too. Cheers Peter Allan From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 11:26:05 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 13:26:05 -0400 Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <6C6CD3BA-F85B-4D47-893E-1726A7A2D93B@nf6x.net> <15fbddf8cf0-c0c-1bac3@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <71be6676-c829-33e3-4e48-b3ca4eedcefc@gmail.com> I just checked my 9122C I happen to have open and the interval between index pulses is 199.66mS? which would be 300 RPM, which is good news for me I can now proceed with adapting a more common 1.44 drive to replace my broken one. Paul. On 2017-11-17 1:04 PM, Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk wrote: > Check your email. How can you tell if it uses a 600 RPM mechanism or not? > > On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Hi Eric, >> >> It's not urgent, but when you have a chance, could you dump the 9122C >> ROM(s) and take high resolution photos of the controller board? >> >> Since it does HD, I suspect it probably does not use a 600 RPM mechanism. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Best regards, >> Eric >> >> >> On Nov 15, 2017 17:45, "Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk" >> wrote: >> >>> It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid out >>> a >>> board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be >>> cheaper >>> for me to buy that instead. >>> >>> I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't use >>> it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300. >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >>>> wrote: >>>>> wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85? >>>>> >>>> I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :) >>>> >>>> I?ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) >>>> which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the >>> Extended >>>> Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my >>> A >>>> model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the >>> Amigo or >>>> SS-80 protocols. >>>> >>>> I?d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time >>> finding >>>> 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don?t talk, >>> so >>>> that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5? DD >>>> media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other >>>> 3.5? HPIB floppy drives. >>>> From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Nov 17 11:31:07 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 18:31:07 +0100 (CET) Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> References: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2017, David Collins wrote: > Christian do you know the gauge of the wire you used ? And the current? It was a wire for cutting polystyrene blocks. The current was a fews amperes, I think, driven off a bench power supply. Christian From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 17 11:57:36 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 09:57:36 -0800 Subject: Manchester University Joint System in the 1970s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0ba9f9e5-3b8d-cbbb-5d91-e1a9b9f10e48@sydex.com> On 11/17/2017 09:24 AM, Peter Allan via cctalk wrote: > I was a student at Manchester University from 1974 to 1980. During that > time I used the University of Manchester Regional Computer Centre (UMRCC) > computer system. The so-called Joint System consisted of a CDC 7600 with an > ICL 1906A front end. We used to submit card decks via a Systime (a PDP-11 > clone, I believe) that functioned as a remote job entry service. > > I am trying to find out information about the structure of those card decks > (mine were used for shopping lists years ago), and in particular, what the > first card in the deck was that routed the job to the correct computer. I can't help you with your specific case, other than to mention that Purdue University for a time used a 6500 front-ended by a couple of IBM 7094s (IIRC, and it's been a long time--could have been 7090s), that might give you a clue. The VIM community wasn't large. >From my own experience with 6000s, the SCOPE 1BJ overlay was heavily modified by various sites. I imagine that the corresponding code in the SCOPE 2.x JS code was similarly tweaked. --Chuck From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Nov 17 12:02:52 2017 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 19:02:52 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171117180252.GA29310@tau1.ceti.pl> On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 02:30:20PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I hope this is vintage enough. [...] > VBox mounts that. But it won't boot, nor in VMware -- it just > displays 2 dots and freezes. > > Embarrassingly late in the troubleshooting process, I've found why. > > I didn't think to check what was on the image! Foolish of me. > > I mounted it on a pre-booted VM and looked, and it's blank! There's > nothing in the image at all. > > So, I mounted the empty image file as a loop device, copied the boot > files in there and then the rest of the files in the distro archive. > > And lo, it works! It boots my VM just fine, and it's now running 7.01-08. Please excuse me if my remark is unnecessary, but if I read you right, you have: 1. Downloaded "empty" disk image - which apparently boots enough to display two dots 2. Copied system (DOS) files on it (say, from backup) 3. You have not erased the boot-sector-from-the-i-net? So it is there and still boots the (now fully functional) DOS? If so, perhaps you should start over from totally new, empty image? Not copy from your currently working image, but from your backup. Just in case. Or at least try to disassemble the boot sector to see what it is doing (I have no idea how, but somehow it must be possible). "Things" can escape from VMs. I have plenty of Xen warnings and bug descriptions in my old mailboxes, chances are there will be more. > All I need to do now is work out how to make the hard disk bootable, > and I'm in business. Boot some other OS, (I am partial to GRML Linux, well packed with rescue stuff and more - https://grml.org/ ); + fdisk, mark bootable? > The DR-DOS 7 SYS command won't do it, as the files aren't named > IBMBIOS.COM and IBMSYS.COM -- they're DRBIO.SYS and DRSYS.SYS. > > I copied them to the expected names. SYS completes but the disk won't boot. Perhaps you should try again, copying one file each time, in the right sequence (I do not recall, which one, but only two files, similarly to how sys would do it). I did such "manual sys" once on MSDOS 6 (5???) floppy and it worked (booted). > Next step will be to try with Norton Disk Doctor. Watcom C? DJGPP? I keep promising myself to do such stuff one day, only with FreeDOS, plus some utils to refresh my long forgotten i386 assembler. So, it is probably FASM nowadays. And some editor which is at least minimally usable... Or some really cheap alternative, with the same under DOSBOX. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Nov 17 12:32:04 2017 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 18:32:04 +0000 Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: References: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Van: Mattis Lind via cctalk Verzonden: vrijdag 17 november 2017 11:52 Aan: David Collins; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Playing with HP2640B The screen on my HP2640 had degenerated quite far. It was only a spot in the middle, 2 by 4 inch, that still attached the glass to the CRT. I used a thin fish fillet knife to dig through the remaining glue. Before https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23622163_10155696765784985_6518064439030378363_n.jpg?oh=44cbf7f7f00d6e25155c208124e20a38&oe=5AA7349D The result after: https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23621971_10155696757184985_1959733265676657917_n.jpg?oh=36a20689c0fb5a16de7fc4df138a40e0&oe=5A9993B1 Anyhow, I researched the glue a bit. The glue is, as far as I understand, PVAc (PolyVinylAcetate, sometimes also known as PVA). PVAc is not soluble in water. It takes quite high temperature to melt it. However PVAc is soluble in many esters. I bought some Butylacetate. It dissolves sample bits of glue from HP2640 quite well and rapidly. Butylacetate has quite high boiling temperature (about 120 degrees centigrade) and thus does not evaporate that quickly. So my idea is now to test on a 2645 screen or VR201 screen by adding some butylacetate and seal with some thin plastic wrap foil and let it dissolve a bit. Then use the fish fillet knife again and repeat the process. /Mattis Wow! Excellent job Mattis I have seen that HP2640 when it still was in bad shape. The HP2640, that I have, has many tiny spots on the screen. Your ?result after? really looks fantastic. What?s not clear to me, after removing the old ?protection? sheet, did you apply some new ?protection? sheet, or leave the tube ?as-is? ? I doubt whether that ?protection? sheet would really help much if the tube would implode (for whatever miraculous reason) ? Henk From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 14:15:18 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 21:15:18 +0100 Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: References: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Wow! Excellent job Mattis > I have seen that HP2640 when it still was in bad shape. The HP2640, > that I have, has many tiny spots on the screen. Your ?result after? > really looks fantastic. Thanks Henk! I have a few more screens that need fixing. The most difficult will be the Tek 4016. So I need to do some practice before that one. > What?s not clear to me, after removing the old ?protection? sheet, did > you apply some new ?protection? sheet, or leave the tube ?as-is? ? > I doubt whether that ?protection? sheet would really help much if > the tube would implode (for whatever miraculous reason) ? No, I didn't add anything between the crt and the glass. If it actually is a protective shield then of course there is not at all the same protection afterwards. But as Christian Corti mentioned it might just be an etched glass to remove reflections. I know at the RICM when doing the same thing on a DEC VR14 they added a sheet of lexan between the crt and the glass. I think Michael Thompson can tell more about this. > > Henk > /Mattis From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 14:24:39 2017 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 12:24:39 -0800 Subject: Manchester University Joint System in the 1970s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 9:24 AM, Peter Allan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I was a student at Manchester University from 1974 to 1980. > If you have suggestions about where else to post this query, I would be > grateful for that too. > > Contact the University Library, check to see if they have the local user's guides from that period in the collection? -- Charles From brain at jbrain.com Fri Nov 17 19:11:32 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 19:11:32 -0600 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus Message-ID: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> I'm currently working on a single board computer system, designing from scratch partially as an education experience, and also as something that might be of interest to others. I've laid out the first version of the SBC, and I realize it would cost nothing to add an edge connector on the PCB, allowing expansion options.? As well, assuming the design has any merit, I can see creating one of these SBcs for each family (8080/Z80, 65XX, 68XX, and maybe even 16 bit options like TMS9900, 68K, etc.) However, as the design is not *for* any purpose, and I've never designed a bus that could be shared among multiple CPUs, I am wondering what bus layout would satisfy the following criteria: * At least enough to support a traditional 8 bit CPU (A0-15,D0-7, RESET, READ/WRITE,CLOCK,INTERRUPTS) with potentially a few more address bits (A16-23) * Minimal number of bus signals to support multi-processors and peripheral cards, but not so few that usefulness is severely crippled * Easy to implement (minimize need for logic that serves to solely handle the bus) * (If 16 bit data bus is part of the design): Easy for 8 and 16 bit CPUs and peripherals to share the bus (Maybe this means 16 bit units need to be constrained to 8 bit, not sure) * Works out to a size that I can buy edge connectors cheaply (62 pin .100" connectors are looking like my cheap option at present) I looked at home computer busses (Atari, Apple, Commodore, Tandy, TI) for a bit of inspiration, but they all seem overly simplistic (not horrible, but hate to just punt on the idea).? I also looked at the ISA bus and the S-100 bus, but they are a bit overwhelming to me (I can grok all the signals, but ensuring they are all responsive seems like it will drive more logic be on the PCB jsut to handle the bus, and I am trying to keep costs very minimal). Thus, Is there a bus (or a fraction of a bus standard) that I should consider to accommodate the above?? Anyone else interested in this idea and in a collaborative mood? Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Nov 17 19:25:32 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 20:25:32 -0500 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <790CAA89-3B9A-4F16-9AB3-8BCDD93949FC@comcast.net> > On Nov 17, 2017, at 8:11 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > I'm currently working on a single board computer system, designing from scratch partially as an education experience, and also as something that might be of interest to others. > > I've laid out the first version of the SBC, and I realize it would cost nothing to add an edge connector on the PCB, allowing expansion options. As well, assuming the design has any merit, I can see creating one of these SBcs for each family (8080/Z80, 65XX, 68XX, and maybe even 16 bit options like TMS9900, 68K, etc.) > > However, as the design is not *for* any purpose, and I've never designed a bus that could be shared among multiple CPUs, I am wondering what bus layout would satisfy the following criteria: ... You might start with the Unibus and make some small tweaks. If you think of each of the several CPUs as a DMA device, which asks for the bus and gets the grant from a central arbiter, you've got your MP bus right there. Strip out some unneeded stuff, like multiple interrupt levels (if you want). One key question is whether it should be asynchronous, as the Unibus is, or synchronous. If you put a central clock on the bus also (presumably from the arbiter since there's one of those) everything else gets a whole lot simpler. There are good reasons for the Unibus to be async, but if you can do sync that's a much better choice. A synchronous version of the Unibus would be quite easy; all the funny one-shot delays would disappear and actions would simply be taken on the clock edge (rising or falling, pick one). Just make the clock period comfortably longer than the worst case propagation delay and you're in business. I'm assuming it doesn't need to be all that fast. If you clock period > prop delay is an issue, things get vastly more complicated. If so, you might want to stick with something that's already been sorted out, like PCIe. paul From brain at jbrain.com Fri Nov 17 19:34:21 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 19:34:21 -0600 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <790CAA89-3B9A-4F16-9AB3-8BCDD93949FC@comcast.net> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <790CAA89-3B9A-4F16-9AB3-8BCDD93949FC@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2be740b4-3725-cc33-3b07-69d565320f1b@jbrain.com> On 11/17/2017 7:25 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > One key question is whether it should be asynchronous, as the Unibus is, or synchronous. I thought synchronous would make for a smaller/simpler design, but could be wrong. > A synchronous version of the Unibus would be quite easy; all the funny one-shot delays would disappear and actions would simply be taken on the clock edge (rising or falling, pick one). Just make the clock period comfortably longer than the worst case propagation delay and you're in business. Given the CPU landscape, I am thinking < 10MHz, which would seem to satisfy the criteria. > > I'm assuming it doesn't need to be all that fast. If you clock period > prop delay is an issue, things get vastly more complicated. If so, you might want to stick with something that's already been sorted out, like PCIe. It does not have to be fast.? I rather thought, "what is the simplest multi-cpu shared bus that could be easily understood by folks and allow them to focus on multi-processing education, not bus understanding" Jim From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 19:52:54 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 20:52:54 -0500 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <2be740b4-3725-cc33-3b07-69d565320f1b@jbrain.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <790CAA89-3B9A-4F16-9AB3-8BCDD93949FC@comcast.net> <2be740b4-3725-cc33-3b07-69d565320f1b@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Nov 17, 2017 8:34 PM, "Jim Brain via cctalk" wrote: > > On 11/17/2017 7:25 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >> One key question is whether it should be asynchronous, as the Unibus is, or synchronous. > > I thought synchronous would make for a smaller/simpler design, but could be wrong. > >> A synchronous version of the Unibus would be quite easy; all the funny one-shot delays would disappear and actions would simply be taken on the clock edge (rising or falling, pick one). Just make the clock period comfortably longer than the worst case propagation delay and you're in business. > > Given the CPU landscape, I am thinking < 10MHz, which would seem to satisfy the criteria. > >> >> I'm assuming it doesn't need to be all that fast. If you clock period > prop delay is an issue, things get vastly more complicated. If so, you might want to stick with something that's already been sorted out, like PCIe. > > It does not have to be fast. I rather thought, "what is the simplest multi-cpu shared bus that could be easily understood by folks and allow them to focus on multi-processing education, not bus understanding" > > Jim > Not simpler but there were S100 systems with those cpus, except maybe the TI 16. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 17 19:55:37 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 19:55:37 -0600 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <2be740b4-3725-cc33-3b07-69d565320f1b@jbrain.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <790CAA89-3B9A-4F16-9AB3-8BCDD93949FC@comcast.net> <2be740b4-3725-cc33-3b07-69d565320f1b@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5A0F9319.3010100@pico-systems.com> On 11/17/2017 07:34 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 11/17/2017 7:25 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> One key question is whether it should be asynchronous, as >> the Unibus is, or synchronous. > I thought synchronous would make for a smaller/simpler > design, but could be wrong. >> A synchronous version of the Unibus would be quite easy; >> all the funny one-shot delays would disappear and actions >> would simply be taken on the clock edge (rising or >> falling, pick one). Just make the clock period >> comfortably longer than the worst case propagation delay >> and you're in business. > Given the CPU landscape, I am thinking < 10MHz, which > would seem to satisfy the criteria. >> >> I'm assuming it doesn't need to be all that fast. If you >> clock period > prop delay is an issue, things get vastly >> more complicated. If so, you might want to stick with >> something that's already been sorted out, like PCIe. > It does not have to be fast. I rather thought, "what is > the simplest multi-cpu shared bus that could be easily > understood by folks and allow them to focus on > multi-processing education, not bus understanding" > > Jim > > You might also take a look at Multibus and VME, if you just want to see how others did it. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 17 19:59:56 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 17:59:56 -0800 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <2be740b4-3725-cc33-3b07-69d565320f1b@jbrain.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <790CAA89-3B9A-4F16-9AB3-8BCDD93949FC@comcast.net> <2be740b4-3725-cc33-3b07-69d565320f1b@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 11/17/2017 05:34 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > It does not have to be fast.? I rather thought, "what is the simplest > multi-cpu shared bus that could be easily understood by folks and allow > them to focus on multi-processing education, not bus understanding" How about a serial bus? Physically simple and not too awful logically today. Say, I2C or SPI... --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 17 20:33:47 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 19:33:47 -0700 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <790CAA89-3B9A-4F16-9AB3-8BCDD93949FC@comcast.net> <2be740b4-3725-cc33-3b07-69d565320f1b@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <424c1745-f58d-cae9-6878-8b74b31353b4@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/17/2017 6:59 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/17/2017 05:34 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > >> It does not have to be fast.? I rather thought, "what is the simplest >> multi-cpu shared bus that could be easily understood by folks and allow >> them to focus on multi-processing education, not bus understanding" > > How about a serial bus? Physically simple and not too awful logically > today. Say, I2C or SPI... > > --Chuck Say USB-version 101101100 :) I would say use a 68000 if your still can get them, but run with a 6800 style clock. The master CPU and shared memory on the high phase of the clock. The slave CPU's on the low clock PHASE (clocked by a inverted clock). This will give you multi-processing with a bit more than 64KB. Ben. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Nov 17 20:42:45 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 21:42:45 -0500 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <5A0F9319.3010100@pico-systems.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <790CAA89-3B9A-4F16-9AB3-8BCDD93949FC@comcast.net> <2be740b4-3725-cc33-3b07-69d565320f1b@jbrain.com> <5A0F9319.3010100@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <86f1bae7-3bc1-5c53-145d-be05837ac94a@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-11-17 8:55 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 11/17/2017 07:34 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/17/2017 7:25 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>> One key question is whether it should be asynchronous, as the Unibus >>> is, or synchronous. >> I thought synchronous would make for a smaller/simpler design, but >> could be wrong. >>> A synchronous version of the Unibus would be quite easy; all the >>> ... >> It does not have to be fast.? I rather thought, "what is the simplest >> multi-cpu shared bus that could be easily understood by folks and >> allow them to focus on multi-processing education, not bus understanding" >> >> Jim >> >> > You might also take a look at Multibus and VME, if you just want to see > how others did it. For a nice survey of buses, including those two: "Digital Bus Handbook", Joseph di Giacomo. https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=83494 > > Jon > From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 21:01:47 2017 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 19:01:47 -0800 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > I'm currently working on a single board computer system, designing from > scratch partially as an education experience, and also as something that > might be of interest to others. > > I don't know how complex the logic is, but VME bus springs to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMEbus 96 pins 32 bit data 32 bit address Has bus arbitration for multiple CPUs Existing hardware > > > From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 11:17:52 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 12:17:52 -0500 Subject: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <39119dec-6aba-8f4d-ad29-2d45488d6878@gmail.com> On 11/16/2017 03:30 PM, Geoffrey Reed via cctech wrote: > > On 11/15/17, 9:44 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk" > wrote: >> Can you name another 20 exceptions? (Chuck and Tony probably can) >> >> >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > ?Floptical? disks 720 rpm 1.6 Mb/s transfer 1250 TPI and 25MB unformatted > capacity > > LS-120 and LS-240 (which sadly I can?t remember the specs of :( > > > Also the Syquest 270mb IDE/parallel port cartridge disk.? I have one that works and over a dozen carts.? Its still in use in a ITX box using the IDE interface.? After two decades of use it seems solid. Allison From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 21:08:29 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 22:08:29 -0500 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5150ff83-26bb-aff9-06c4-119ee9c7bd3b@gmail.com> On 11/17/2017 08:11 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > I'm currently working on a single board computer system, designing > from scratch partially as an education experience, and also as > something that might be of interest to others. > > I've laid out the first version of the SBC, and I realize it would > cost nothing to add an edge connector on the PCB, allowing expansion > options.? As well, assuming the design has any merit, I can see > creating one of these SBcs for each family (8080/Z80, 65XX, 68XX, and > maybe even 16 bit options like TMS9900, 68K, etc.) > ?A bus that can accommodate 8/16 and also IO mapped plus memory mapped peripherals forces a lot of bus logic or interface logic.? The Current winner that has had all of those is S100-IEEE-696 and its messy. The more you try to cram into it the more complex it must be, or the interface from each SBC is so constrained they can easily share memory or IO in their natural form (ex: 16bitter reading 8 bit ram will be slow). At a minimum make 8 and 16it exclusive or your bus interfacs have high overhead.?? Also take into account that not all cpus mix well or play well in a multicpu mix. > However, as the design is not *for* any purpose, and I've never > designed a bus that could be shared among multiple CPUs, I am > wondering what bus layout would satisfy the following criteria: > > ?* At least enough to support a traditional 8 bit CPU (A0-15,D0-7, > ?? RESET, READ/WRITE,CLOCK,INTERRUPTS) with potentially a few more > ?? address bits (A16-23) > ?* Minimal number of bus signals to support multi-processors and > ?? peripheral cards, but not so few that usefulness is severely crippled > ? Mread, Mwrite, IOread IOwrite, Eread (early),? Ewrite (Early write) Then you need a set of bus-request, bus-available signals. And signals to indicate an 8 or 16 bit read or write (Bhi, Blow) or byte/word for IO and memory... Interrupts.... each differs and few overlap. Bottom line if your teaching multi-cpus make the bus as simple as possible as you then are not locked to explaining how a 8bitter lives on a 16bit bus or the other way around. > * Easy to implement (minimize need for logic that serves to solely > ?? handle the bus) More un-alike stuff on the bus the harder it gets. > ?* (If 16 bit data bus is part of the design): Easy for 8 and 16 bit > ?? CPUs and peripherals to share the bus (Maybe this means 16 bit units > ?? need to be constrained to 8 bit, not sure) > ?* Works out to a size that I can buy edge connectors cheaply (62 pin > ?? .100" connectors are looking like my cheap option at present) > simple 16 data, 24 address likely 6 lines for basic control plus others your up to 50+ lines and you may want interleaved grounds and also doubled DC pins for current capability and more for multiple voltages.? is 62 enough??? Look at ISA-8 for an answer. > I looked at home computer busses (Atari, Apple, Commodore, Tandy, TI) > for a bit of inspiration, but they all seem overly simplistic (not > horrible, but hate to just punt on the idea).? I also looked at the > ISA bus and the S-100 bus, but they are a bit overwhelming to me (I > can grok all the signals, but ensuring they are all responsive seems > like it will drive more logic be on the PCB jsut to handle the bus, > and I am trying to keep costs very minimal). > Easy limit the possible mixed set of CPUs.? ?? in the 8bit realm that mix well are 8085, Z80, Z180, 8088.?? The other set would be the 6502/6800/6809 group. ? Mixing 6502 and z80 is messy or 6502 with 8088 more of same. ?Adding in the 16bit takes the need for bus translation and timing between 8bit or 16 bit peripherals. ?Mixing 6500 and z80 are annoying as z80(and 8080, 8085,8088) do IO in separate space from memory there 6500/6800/6809 peripheral IO is in memory space.? Sure you can force the issue with logic or make the z80 do io in memory space for simple convenience but for those cpus that is atypical. The single fastest way to limit cost is limit the possible cpu flavors.? for example ts fairly trivial to make 8085, 8088 and z80 present similar signals to a common bus. Most of the machine mentioned were at best single cpu (Atari, Apple, Commodore, Tandy, TI) and many were not well executed.? FYI TI 9900 is both 16bit and serial as the LRU interface is bit addressed serial and very unique perpierals. > Thus, > > Is there a bus (or a fraction of a bus standard) that I should > consider to accommodate the above?? Anyone else interested in this > idea and in a collaborative mood? > All depends.? IF your trying share peripherals and memory you end up with S100 or S100 like.? If you trying to talk to each other than maybe something like GPIB or SCSI (or a flavor of those) may suit the need.? Or simple network bus serial or parallel.? The latter can be few in wires but imposes a protocal to talk from A to B and may make putting memory (not mass storage) in it awkward. I did this years ago with 8085/z80/8088 and that ended up sorta like a simplified bus not unlike ISA-8 (PC xt) with lines to signal bus master request and ack, plus a interrupt system tht could be shared (daisy chain or not). Later I added 8749 cpus as smart IO and found it worked if I created a false address space for the limited 8749 (8049 can only address 4K rom space and 256bytes ram or IO space) but the timing and other aspects worked ok. Busses like PDP-11 (Unibus or Qbus) are DEC unique and have high logic overhead to talk or even listen. Also PDP11 had memory mapped IO in a reserved space (BBS7 or any address with 15/14/13=1) it was also unmapped space when using MMU.?? S100 was primitive and even 696 didn't make it clean(crosstalk and ringing issues) though it you used different connector and layout it can be a model as it addresses everything but at a price.? Multibus can be 8 or 16 bit but is skewed to Intel or intel like (z80) cpus and not unlike ISA-8/16 save for cleaner interrupt implementation (PCs broke that). I leave out system specific buses like Exorbus(6800 68000), STDbus(z80), and a few others unique to a CPU. Generally after ISA bus (PC XT and AT) PC buses are CPU specific and unique. Bottom line if ISA-8 is to much then your conditions are contradictory as anything more is going to make that look simple.? Allison > Jim > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 17 22:49:04 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 20:49:04 -0800 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <424c1745-f58d-cae9-6878-8b74b31353b4@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <790CAA89-3B9A-4F16-9AB3-8BCDD93949FC@comcast.net> <2be740b4-3725-cc33-3b07-69d565320f1b@jbrain.com> <424c1745-f58d-cae9-6878-8b74b31353b4@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 11/17/2017 06:33 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Say USB-version 101101100 :) No, I'm serious--lowers parts count tremendously. I run SPI at 40 MHz. But for something simpler in a parallel bus there's always STD bus, or STD-32. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Nov 17 14:18:29 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 20:18:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Manchester University Joint System in the 1970s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1233993820.729564.1510949909929.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> I was there 1980-1984, I don't ever recall using a 7600 though, I thought I used a CDC Cyber 172 (or 170 or something similar). It is possible I may have some records buried at home, but I am away at the moment and they would not be easily accessible. I have to re-arrange a lot of stuff over Christmas so I will keep a lookout. However, *I* have a question for *you*. For the last year I have been working on building an emulator for MU5 (see https://robs-old-computers.com/projects/mu5/). Do you have *any* information at all about MU5? I am particularly short on anything about the operating system, MUSS. Thanks Rob > > On 17 November 2017 at 17:24 Peter Allan via cctalk > wrote: > > > I was a student at Manchester University from 1974 to 1980. During that > time I used the University of Manchester Regional Computer Centre (UMRCC) > computer system. The so-called Joint System consisted of a CDC 7600 with > an > ICL 1906A front end. We used to submit card decks via a Systime (a PDP-11 > clone, I believe) that functioned as a remote job entry service. > > I am trying to find out information about the structure of those card > decks > (mine were used for shopping lists years ago), and in particular, what the > first card in the deck was that routed the job to the correct computer. > > I have found information about JOB cards for both ICL computers running > George 3 and for the CDC 7600 running SCOPE 2.1 (which is what the > computers ran), but I believe that neither of these gives the full story > about what we used on the Joint System. > > Does anyone who used this system, or similar ones in the UK, recall > anything relevant? > > If you have suggestions about where else to post this query, I would be > grateful for that too. > > Cheers > > Peter Allan > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 17 11:26:12 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 09:26:12 -0800 Subject: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <39119dec-6aba-8f4d-ad29-2d45488d6878@gmail.com> References: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487@nf6x.net> <39119dec-6aba-8f4d-ad29-2d45488d6878@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/17/2017 09:17 AM, allison via cctech wrote: > Also the Syquest 270mb IDE/parallel port cartridge disk.? I have one > that works > and over a dozen carts.? Its still in use in a ITX box using the IDE > interface.? After > two decades of use it seems solid. I've left out the non-floppy technologies. I have a Squest Sparq, unused still in its packaging, for example. After being sent one for evaluation, I rejected it because it was offered only in the printer-port version, which necessarily limits transfer bandwidth. But there were plenty of "floppy" technologies, such as the UHD144, or LS120 or Drivetec stuff. I treat Bernoulli and Zip as a floppy-sort-of technology, because they are incapable of reading standard floppies, so I don't include them either, even though they employed flexible media. --Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Nov 18 01:46:53 2017 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 00:46:53 -0700 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <37495bea-3a3f-3c7b-d385-77bef75b93eb@e-bbes.com> On 2017-11-17 18:11, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > I'm currently working on a single board computer system, designing from > scratch partially as an education experience, and also as something that > might be of interest to others. > > I've laid out the first version of the SBC, and I realize it would cost > nothing to add an edge connector on the PCB, allowing expansion > options.? As well, assuming the design has any merit, I can see creating > one of these SBcs for each family (8080/Z80, 65XX, 68XX, and maybe even > 16 bit options like TMS9900, 68K, etc.) You know this projects? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N8VEM From alan at alanlee.org Sat Nov 18 02:04:08 2017 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 03:04:08 -0500 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <627531e8ba5d6f093a423fc068a215de@alanlee.org> If you need simple arbitration, there is always this: https://www.retrotronics.org/arbiter/ -Alan On 2017-11-17 20:11, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > I'm currently working on a single board computer system, designing > from scratch partially as an education experience, and also as > something that might be of interest to others. > > I've laid out the first version of the SBC, and I realize it would > cost nothing to add an edge connector on the PCB, allowing expansion > options.? As well, assuming the design has any merit, I can see > creating one of these SBcs for each family (8080/Z80, 65XX, 68XX, and > maybe even 16 bit options like TMS9900, 68K, etc.) > > However, as the design is not *for* any purpose, and I've never > designed a bus that could be shared among multiple CPUs, I am > wondering what bus layout would satisfy the following criteria: > > * At least enough to support a traditional 8 bit CPU (A0-15,D0-7, > RESET, READ/WRITE,CLOCK,INTERRUPTS) with potentially a few more > address bits (A16-23) > * Minimal number of bus signals to support multi-processors and > peripheral cards, but not so few that usefulness is severely > crippled > * Easy to implement (minimize need for logic that serves to solely > handle the bus) > * (If 16 bit data bus is part of the design): Easy for 8 and 16 bit > CPUs and peripherals to share the bus (Maybe this means 16 bit units > need to be constrained to 8 bit, not sure) > * Works out to a size that I can buy edge connectors cheaply (62 pin > .100" connectors are looking like my cheap option at present) > > I looked at home computer busses (Atari, Apple, Commodore, Tandy, TI) > for a bit of inspiration, but they all seem overly simplistic (not > horrible, but hate to just punt on the idea).? I also looked at the > ISA bus and the S-100 bus, but they are a bit overwhelming to me (I > can grok all the signals, but ensuring they are all responsive seems > like it will drive more logic be on the PCB jsut to handle the bus, > and I am trying to keep costs very minimal). > > Thus, > > Is there a bus (or a fraction of a bus standard) that I should > consider to accommodate the above?? Anyone else interested in this > idea and in a collaborative mood? > > Jim From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Nov 18 02:59:52 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 08:59:52 -0000 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <37495bea-3a3f-3c7b-d385-77bef75b93eb@e-bbes.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <37495bea-3a3f-3c7b-d385-77bef75b93eb@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <03b401d3604b$9957acf0$cc0706d0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of emanuel > stiebler via cctalk > Sent: 18 November 2017 07:47 > To: Jim Brain ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus > > On 2017-11-17 18:11, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > I'm currently working on a single board computer system, designing > > from scratch partially as an education experience, and also as > > something that might be of interest to others. > > > > I've laid out the first version of the SBC, and I realize it would > > cost nothing to add an edge connector on the PCB, allowing expansion > > options. As well, assuming the design has any merit, I can see > > creating one of these SBcs for each family (8080/Z80, 65XX, 68XX, and > > maybe even > > 16 bit options like TMS9900, 68K, etc.) > > You know this projects? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N8VEM Now :- https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Nov 18 08:54:26 2017 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 08:54:26 -0600 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <919e49f6-0754-5146-458f-bdd21eda9825@gmail.com> On 11/17/2017 07:11 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > I looked at home computer busses (Atari, Apple, Commodore, Tandy, TI) for a > bit of inspiration, but they all seem overly simplistic (not horrible, but > hate to just punt on the idea). Is the multi-CPU stuff important initially? If not then maybe keep things simple, but reserve a chunk of pins for "future expansion" with that in mind (or take the approach of various manufacturers and run the 'extra' stuff through to the boards separately from the backplane as/when it became necessary) Alternately, STE immediately sprang to mind (it's 8 bit, but plenty of boards using 16 bit CPUs existed so long as they could handle data 8 bits at a time). Hazy memory is telling me there's some issue with 6502 CPUs, but pretty much any other 8-bitter (as well as m68k, ns32k etc.) is fair game. You could homebrew your own boards then, but also make use of all the hundreds of different commercial ones which existed. If I remember right STE was essentially a simplified version of VME though, so that's probably worth a look too (I think someone else already mentioned it) - presumably there's more complexity and cost involved. cheers Jules From brain at jbrain.com Sat Nov 18 11:20:12 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 11:20:12 -0600 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <37495bea-3a3f-3c7b-d385-77bef75b93eb@e-bbes.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <37495bea-3a3f-3c7b-d385-77bef75b93eb@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <88bbb5b1-7f5d-f033-08c0-8473c819190c@jbrain.com> On 11/18/2017 1:46 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2017-11-17 18:11, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >> I'm currently working on a single board computer system, designing >> from scratch partially as an education experience, and also as >> something that might be of interest to others. >> >> I've laid out the first version of the SBC, and I realize it would >> cost nothing to add an edge connector on the PCB, allowing expansion >> options.? As well, assuming the design has any merit, I can see >> creating one of these SBcs for each family (8080/Z80, 65XX, 68XX, and >> maybe even 16 bit options like TMS9900, 68K, etc.) > > You know this projects? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N8VEM I've followed the N8VEM project for many years, but I had forgotten about looking at their bus design.? Thanks. -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Nov 18 17:57:10 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 17:57:10 -0600 Subject: Slightly OT: Computer internals book recommendations Message-ID: <20171118235710.GA79431@gmail.com> The fascinating discussion Jim just started on buses got me thinking again about a book I've been trying to track down for a while. While it's not necessarily classic-computing-oriented, it's not really about newfangled computers either; heck, I encountered it in 2003 or so, so it'd be pretty dated by now. Basically, I'm looking for a certain book (although really any book in the same vein would satisfy), which was on computer system architecture, organization, etc.; it talked about the usual boolean logic, assembly programming in some fictitious instruction set, an overview of two actual architectures (I think at that time they were 32-bit x86 and 64-bit POWER). The other thing I remember very specifically was there was a place near the back (probably an appendix) that talked about one or more specific buses (I think at least PCI was there), with timing diagrams to tell you what was actually going back and forth between the bus and CPU. Like I said, I'm sort of keen on finding the exact book I had, but I realize that's somewhat unrealistic, so I'm open to recommendations on any book like that. And if it can cover the relavant concepts for both classic and newish computers, that would be great. Basically what I hope to learn is how you actually deal with peripherals, add-in cards, etc., on the assembly language level, and what that really translates into on a signaling level. I only really know a little about how to do that in memory-mapped IO systems like the Commodores (and to be honest I don't understand how the buses work there, just how to poke and peek.) Thanks! -- Eric Christopherson From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sat Nov 18 15:09:42 2017 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 16:09:42 -0500 Subject: Sync on Green RGB video Message-ID: <9a929343-e7b2-9156-5a1a-520bed77319e@comcast.net> I have a couple of vaxes that output 'unique' video, Alpha 3000 300, Alpha 3000 400, Vax 4000 VLC, and Vax Station 3100 M76. The Alpha and VLC each have a 3W3 type of connector and the 3100 has a 15 pin DEC designed connector. What does it take to connect these to inexpensive, modern VGA light weight monitors? Doug From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Nov 18 15:21:31 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 21:21:31 +0000 Subject: Sync on Green RGB video In-Reply-To: <9a929343-e7b2-9156-5a1a-520bed77319e@comcast.net> References: <9a929343-e7b2-9156-5a1a-520bed77319e@comcast.net> Message-ID: <871skvl1us.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> You might be surprised how many LCD monitors support SoG. I have several iiyama LCD panels which work fine with a 3100. Aaron. Douglas Taylor via cctech writes: > I have a couple of vaxes that output 'unique' video, Alpha 3000 300, > Alpha 3000 400, Vax 4000 VLC, and Vax Station 3100 M76. > > The Alpha and VLC each have a 3W3 type of connector and the 3100 has a > 15 pin DEC designed connector. > > What does it take to connect these to inexpensive, modern VGA light > weight monitors? > > Doug From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Nov 18 16:46:33 2017 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 15:46:33 -0700 Subject: Sync on Green RGB video In-Reply-To: <9a929343-e7b2-9156-5a1a-520bed77319e@comcast.net> References: <9a929343-e7b2-9156-5a1a-520bed77319e@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9f28e33e-ccd2-f7c0-b5b4-3810f27b0612@e-bbes.com> On 2017-11-18 14:09, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > I have a couple of vaxes that output 'unique' video, Alpha 3000 300, > Alpha 3000 400, Vax 4000 VLC, and Vax Station 3100 M76. > > The Alpha and VLC each have a 3W3 type of connector and the 3100 has a > 15 pin DEC designed connector. The 3w3 cables are actually still easy to find. I use then, a vga-BNC cable with some adapters > What does it take to connect these to inexpensive, modern VGA light > weight monitors? There are some brands, which support sync-on-green (HP, Viewsonic, that's what I have) From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Nov 18 17:44:07 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 18:44:07 -0500 Subject: Sync on Green RGB video In-Reply-To: <9a929343-e7b2-9156-5a1a-520bed77319e@comcast.net> References: <9a929343-e7b2-9156-5a1a-520bed77319e@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Nov 18, 2017 4:09 PM, "Douglas Taylor via cctech" wrote: > > I have a couple of vaxes that output 'unique' video, Alpha 3000 300, Alpha 3000 400, Vax 4000 VLC, and Vax Station 3100 M76. > > The Alpha and VLC each have a 3W3 type of connector and the 3100 has a 15 pin DEC designed connector. > > What does it take to connect these to inexpensive, modern VGA light weight monitors? > > Doug > I have played around with that problem. If you have a converter to get into a VGA port a newer high-end vga display will be able to adjust, but not a cheap one. Because I use my vice vga/digital display for mode stuff, I use a huge SGI color display for all of my 3w3 outputting systems and I just switch the cable around. If you could imagine 5 or 6 systems clustered around the one display. I am sure someone here has a technical explanation, but in a nutshell the 3W3 world signal isn't the same as a standard vga and cheap vga displays can't handle the refresh rate. Someone will prob. refine my answer but that's why you can't just stick an adapter on there. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Nov 18 17:54:45 2017 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 15:54:45 -0800 Subject: Sync on Green RGB video In-Reply-To: References: <9a929343-e7b2-9156-5a1a-520bed77319e@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20171118155445.3c092728@honcho.bcwi.net> On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 18:44:07 -0500 william degnan via cctech wrote: > On Nov 18, 2017 4:09 PM, "Douglas Taylor via cctech" > wrote: > > > > I have a couple of vaxes that output 'unique' video, Alpha 3000 > > 300, > Alpha 3000 400, Vax 4000 VLC, and Vax Station 3100 M76. > > > > The Alpha and VLC each have a 3W3 type of connector and the 3100 > > has a 15 > pin DEC designed connector. > > > > What does it take to connect these to inexpensive, modern VGA > > light > weight monitors? > > > > Doug > > > > I have played around with that problem. If you have a converter to > get into a VGA port a newer high-end vga display will be able to > adjust, but not a cheap one. Because I use my vice vga/digital > display for mode stuff, I use a huge SGI color display for all of my > 3w3 outputting systems and I just switch the cable around. If you > could imagine 5 or 6 systems clustered around the one display. > > I am sure someone here has a technical explanation, but in a nutshell > the 3W3 world signal isn't the same as a standard vga and cheap vga > displays can't handle the refresh rate. Someone will prob. refine my > answer but that's why you can't just stick an adapter on there. > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net The "issue" is "Sync-on-Green". Many *NIX and DEC systems that have RGB output do NOT use a Hsync signal - but rather sync is placed on the "Green" channel. If you use any monitor capable of "sync-on-green", and it should work. Best, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley AF6WS '73 http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Nov 18 18:01:35 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 16:01:35 -0800 Subject: Sync on Green RGB video In-Reply-To: References: <9a929343-e7b2-9156-5a1a-520bed77319e@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7d179095-1db6-4ce7-9c3a-be938638d024@jwsss.com> On 11/18/2017 3:44 PM, william degnan via cctech wrote: > On Nov 18, 2017 4:09 PM, "Douglas Taylor via cctech" > wrote: >> I have a couple of vaxes that output 'unique' video, Alpha 3000 300, > Alpha 3000 400, Vax 4000 VLC, and Vax Station 3100 M76. >> The Alpha and VLC each have a 3W3 type of connector and the 3100 has a 15 > pin DEC designed connector. >> What does it take to connect these to inexpensive, modern VGA light > weight monitors? >> Doug >> > I have played around with that problem. If you have a converter to get > into a VGA port a newer high-end vga display will be able to adjust, but > not a cheap one. Because I use my vice vga/digital display for mode stuff, > I use a huge SGI color display for all of my 3w3 outputting systems and I > just switch the cable around. If you could imagine 5 or 6 systems > clustered around the one display. > > I am sure someone here has a technical explanation, but in a nutshell the > 3W3 world signal isn't the same as a standard vga and cheap vga displays > can't handle the refresh rate. Someone will prob. refine my answer but > that's why you can't just stick an adapter on there. > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net The 13w3 Sun and the like world of video is different than the three wire sync on green video from Dec.? There is a feature on a lot of the Sony displays, including the ones that Dec rebadged that supported the sync on green. There is a Raritan converter for Sun keyboard and video conversion to PS2 and VGA that is powered off the 13W3 connector to solve the problem for the Sun systems. Also note there is a monochrome option with just a single coax populated in the 13W3 for sun.? I'm currently getting ready to hook it up to the above noted converter, can report back whether it works.? FWIW the system is an IPC Sparc 1 mini system. I have the DEC Sony monitor, and? a friend and I are collecting information to make a general DEC Vax sync on green / Pro 3xx / Rainbow / Decmate board / jumper board / connector adapter for all the crap we have.? Output will be VGA. Right now we've run the video to regular RS-170 monitor.? Levels weren't necessarily happy with direct connection but video showed up. thanks Jim From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Nov 18 18:57:55 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 18:57:55 -0600 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <424c1745-f58d-cae9-6878-8b74b31353b4@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <790CAA89-3B9A-4F16-9AB3-8BCDD93949FC@comcast.net> <2be740b4-3725-cc33-3b07-69d565320f1b@jbrain.com> <424c1745-f58d-cae9-6878-8b74b31353b4@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20171119005755.GB79431@gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 17, 2017, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 11/17/2017 6:59 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/17/2017 05:34 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > > > > It does not have to be fast.? I rather thought, "what is the simplest > > > multi-cpu shared bus that could be easily understood by folks and allow > > > them to focus on multi-processing education, not bus understanding" > > > > How about a serial bus? Physically simple and not too awful logically > > today. Say, I2C or SPI... > > > > --Chuck > > Say USB-version 101101100 :) Sorry to be dense, but are you referring to some actual USB version? Or did you mean something like "one of the many USB versions, some not yet released"? (101101100 is 364 in binary, but I don't see the significance of that.) > > I would say use a 68000 if your still can get them, > but run with a 6800 style clock. The master CPU and > shared memory on the high phase of the clock. The > slave CPU's on the low clock PHASE (clocked by a inverted clock). > This will give you multi-processing with a bit more than > 64KB. > Ben. -- Eric Christopherson From brain at jbrain.com Sun Nov 19 00:48:43 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 00:48:43 -0600 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <37495bea-3a3f-3c7b-d385-77bef75b93eb@e-bbes.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <37495bea-3a3f-3c7b-d385-77bef75b93eb@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <7e4bff49-3508-6eef-0269-610b4adcf7db@jbrain.com> On 11/18/2017 1:46 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2017-11-17 18:11, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >> I'm currently working on a single board computer system, designing >> from scratch partially as an education experience, and also as >> something that might be of interest to others. >> >> I've laid out the first version of the SBC, and I realize it would >> cost nothing to add an edge connector on the PCB, allowing expansion >> options.? As well, assuming the design has any merit, I can see >> creating one of these SBcs for each family (8080/Z80, 65XX, 68XX, and >> maybe even 16 bit options like TMS9900, 68K, etc.) > > You know this projects? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N8VEM Looking at the schematic for the ECB, I cannot find any description of the signals BAI, BAO, IEI, and IEO.? Can anyone shed some light on the function of these signals? Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sun Nov 19 01:29:53 2017 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 18:29:53 +1100 Subject: Slightly OT: Computer internals book recommendations In-Reply-To: <20171118235710.GA79431@gmail.com> References: <20171118235710.GA79431@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7B9D09B1-5EE1-4F8A-A519-B7B1609FC60F@kerberos.davies.net.au> > On 19 Nov 2017, at 10:57, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > > Basically, I'm looking for a certain book (although really any book in > the same vein would satisfy), which was on computer system architecture, > organization, etc.; it talked about the usual boolean logic, assembly > programming in some fictitious instruction set, an overview of two > actual architectures (I think at that time they were 32-bit x86 and > 64-bit POWER). The other thing I remember very specifically was there > was a place near the back (probably an appendix) that talked about > one or more specific buses (I think at least PCI was there), with timing > diagrams to tell you what was actually going back and forth between the > bus and CPU. > Sounds like either Computer Architecture: A Quantitative Approach by David Patterson and John Hennessy Computer Organization and Design: the Hardware/Software Interface by David Patterson and John Hennessy I see there?s a MIPS edition of the second book. My copy of the second book has Hennessy as the first author. Time for a re-read - it?s been a while since I read both of them. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Nov 19 07:54:02 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 08:54:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus Message-ID: <20171119135402.3B4EA18C0F5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Allison > simple 16 data, 24 address likely 6 lines for basic control plus others > your up to 50+ lines I would seriously consider shared data/address lines, like on the QBUS. It doesn't add _that_ much complexity to share the lines (I did a slave device using only 74xxx parts, and it was dead simple - probably a goal of the designers), and it will really drop the pin count. The speed impact is not too bad - on reads, where the address and data naturally happen at different times, it can be none. Noel From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Nov 19 09:08:00 2017 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 08:08:00 -0700 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <7e4bff49-3508-6eef-0269-610b4adcf7db@jbrain.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <37495bea-3a3f-3c7b-d385-77bef75b93eb@e-bbes.com> <7e4bff49-3508-6eef-0269-610b4adcf7db@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <11a2579b-102f-1585-8f46-d3a6db8c532f@e-bbes.com> On 2017-11-18 23:48, Jim Brain wrote: > Looking at the schematic for the ECB, I cannot find any description of > the signals BAI, BAO, IEI, and IEO. Can anyone shed some light on the > function of these signals? Here again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_Card_Bus I have some ECB documentation "somewhere", but I'm moving so it is in one of the 100s boxes somewhere :( But the guys on the retrobrewcomputers can help you for sure. And yes, I like ECB, it was small & simple, you still can get boards for it, and the DIN conectors I still use ... From haskins.sophie at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 10:14:27 2017 From: haskins.sophie at gmail.com (Sophie Haskins) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 11:14:27 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Computer internals book recommendations In-Reply-To: <7B9D09B1-5EE1-4F8A-A519-B7B1609FC60F@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <20171118235710.GA79431@gmail.com> <7B9D09B1-5EE1-4F8A-A519-B7B1609FC60F@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: I want to say that earlier editions of ?Computer Systems: A Programmers Perspective? had a bunch of discussions of buses etc in addition to assembly, compilers, linking, etc. but the edition I have explicitly calls out that they felt like it wasn?t important to have chapters on anymore :( > On Nov 19, 2017, at 2:29 AM, Huw Davies via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On 19 Nov 2017, at 10:57, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: >> >> Basically, I'm looking for a certain book (although really any book in >> the same vein would satisfy), which was on computer system architecture, >> organization, etc.; it talked about the usual boolean logic, assembly >> programming in some fictitious instruction set, an overview of two >> actual architectures (I think at that time they were 32-bit x86 and >> 64-bit POWER). The other thing I remember very specifically was there >> was a place near the back (probably an appendix) that talked about >> one or more specific buses (I think at least PCI was there), with timing >> diagrams to tell you what was actually going back and forth between the >> bus and CPU. >> > > Sounds like either > > Computer Architecture: A Quantitative Approach by David Patterson and John Hennessy > > Computer Organization and Design: the Hardware/Software Interface by David Patterson and John Hennessy > > I see there?s a MIPS edition of the second book. My copy of the second book has Hennessy as the first author. > > Time for a re-read - it?s been a while since I read both of them. > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au > Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the > Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Nov 19 12:10:13 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 13:10:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Slightly OT: Computer internals book recommendations Message-ID: <20171119181013.93FF418C0F5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Sophie Haskins > earlier editions of "Computer Systems: A Programmers Perspective" had a > bunch of discussions of buses etc .. but the edition I have explicitly > calls out that they felt like it wasn't important to have chapters on > anymore :( Well, that might not be the wrong call, _iff_ keeping them in would have increase the cost of the text-book for (poor) student... And for the rest of us, there's ABE for the earlier editions! :-) Which edition do you have, may I ask? Thanks! Noel From haskins.sophie at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 12:25:58 2017 From: haskins.sophie at gmail.com (Sophie Haskins) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 13:25:58 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Computer internals book recommendations In-Reply-To: <20171119181013.93FF418C0F5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171119181013.93FF418C0F5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I have the second edition (there appears to now be a third out!) but re-reading the preface and "what's changed since the first edition" doesn't seem to say what I remembered re: buses (namely, it says nothing at all). It is possibly my professors were referring to a much earlier course/textbook (or that I dreamed the whole thing!). CS: APP is still a pretty useful book, but...not on this topic, it would seem. (in the second edition, the only reference to buses is on a page where they note that as of its publishing, buses are much more complicated and much less exposed to programmers than they once were) - Sophie On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 1:10 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Sophie Haskins > > > earlier editions of "Computer Systems: A Programmers Perspective" > had a > > bunch of discussions of buses etc .. but the edition I have > explicitly > > calls out that they felt like it wasn't important to have chapters on > > anymore :( > > Well, that might not be the wrong call, _iff_ keeping them in would have > increase the cost of the text-book for (poor) student... > > And for the rest of us, there's ABE for the earlier editions! :-) Which > edition do you have, may I ask? Thanks! > > Noel > From brain at jbrain.com Sun Nov 19 13:56:43 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 13:56:43 -0600 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <11a2579b-102f-1585-8f46-d3a6db8c532f@e-bbes.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <37495bea-3a3f-3c7b-d385-77bef75b93eb@e-bbes.com> <7e4bff49-3508-6eef-0269-610b4adcf7db@jbrain.com> <11a2579b-102f-1585-8f46-d3a6db8c532f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 11/19/2017 9:08 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2017-11-18 23:48, Jim Brain wrote: > > > Looking at the schematic for the ECB, I cannot find any description of > > the signals BAI, BAO, IEI, and IEO.? Can anyone shed some light on the > > function of these signals? > > Here again: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_Card_Bus > > I have some ECB documentation "somewhere", but I'm moving so it is in > one of the 100s boxes somewhere :( > > But the guys on the retrobrewcomputers can help you for sure. > > And yes, I like ECB, it was small & simple, you still can get boards > for it, and the DIN conectors I still use ... I went there already, but the descriptions: *BAI 1; BAO 1:* Bus Priority In; Bus Priority Out. *IEI; IEO:* Interrupt Enable In; Interrupt Enable Out. does not give much clue as to usage, especially as I see that the pins are unwired on the backplanes, and require ones to add jumpers to connect them.? I understand that they are used to "chain" boards toghether in some order, but how and why is left as an exercise for the reader. I looked at each of the backplane schematics for guidance, as well as looking at various ECB cards (the interrupt card I thought would have more detail, but alas, not) Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sat Nov 18 21:57:47 2017 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 22:57:47 -0500 Subject: Sync on Green RGB video In-Reply-To: References: <9a929343-e7b2-9156-5a1a-520bed77319e@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/18/2017 6:44 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > On Nov 18, 2017 4:09 PM, "Douglas Taylor via cctech" > > wrote: > > > > I have a couple of vaxes that output 'unique' video, Alpha 3000 300, > Alpha 3000 400, Vax 4000 VLC, and Vax Station 3100 M76. > > > > The Alpha and VLC each have a 3W3 type of connector and the 3100 has > a 15 pin DEC designed connector. > > > > What does it take to connect these to inexpensive, modern VGA light > weight monitors? > > > > Doug > > > > I have played around with that problem.? If you have a converter to > get into a VGA port a newer high-end vga display will be able to > adjust, but not a cheap one.? Because I use my vice vga/digital > display for mode stuff, I use a huge SGI color display for all of my > 3w3 outputting systems and I just switch the cable around.? If you > could imagine 5 or 6 systems clustered around the one display. > > I am sure someone here has a technical explanation, but in a nutshell > the 3W3 world signal isn't the same as a standard vga and cheap vga > displays can't handle the refresh rate.? Someone will prob. refine my > answer but that's why you can't just stick an adapter on there. > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > I ran into a similar comment somewhere on the internet somewhere (it's a big place) that you had to make sure that the LCD monitor supported the H,V rates put out by the DEC video frame buffer. From marco at familie-rauhut.eu Sun Nov 19 03:32:23 2017 From: marco at familie-rauhut.eu (Marco Rauhut) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 10:32:23 +0100 Subject: Sync on Green RGB video In-Reply-To: References: <9a929343-e7b2-9156-5a1a-520bed77319e@comcast.net> Message-ID: I have the same problem with a cheap 19" LCD VGA Screen. What i made is to seperate the required sync signal with an LM1881 Video Sync Seperator. I used the standard application from the TI datasheet.The only difference is that i used an viariable resistor on pin 6 to adjust to the Sync Frequency. That is running with my Vax Station 4000 / 60. Marco Rauhut Am 19.11.2017 um 04:57 schrieb Douglas Taylor via cctech: > On 11/18/2017 6:44 PM, william degnan wrote: >> >> >> On Nov 18, 2017 4:09 PM, "Douglas Taylor via cctech" >> > wrote: >> > >> > I have a couple of vaxes that output 'unique' video, Alpha 3000 >> 300, Alpha 3000 400, Vax 4000 VLC, and Vax Station 3100 M76. >> > >> > The Alpha and VLC each have a 3W3 type of connector and the 3100 >> has a 15 pin DEC designed connector. >> > >> > What does it take to connect these to inexpensive, modern VGA light >> weight monitors? >> > >> > Doug >> > >> >> I have played around with that problem.? If you have a converter to >> get into a VGA port a newer high-end vga display will be able to >> adjust, but not a cheap one.? Because I use my vice vga/digital >> display for mode stuff, I use a huge SGI color display for all of my >> 3w3 outputting systems and I just switch the cable around.? If you >> could imagine 5 or 6 systems clustered around the one display. >> >> I am sure someone here has a technical explanation, but in a nutshell >> the 3W3 world signal isn't the same as a standard vga and cheap vga >> displays can't handle the refresh rate.? Someone will prob. refine my >> answer but that's why you can't just stick an adapter on there. >> >> Bill Degnan >> twitter: billdeg >> vintagecomputer.net >> > I ran into a similar comment somewhere on the internet somewhere (it's > a big place) that you had to make sure that the LCD monitor supported > the H,V rates put out by the DEC video frame buffer. From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 14:43:27 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 12:43:27 -0800 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <7e4bff49-3508-6eef-0269-610b4adcf7db@jbrain.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <37495bea-3a3f-3c7b-d385-77bef75b93eb@e-bbes.com> <7e4bff49-3508-6eef-0269-610b4adcf7db@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Looking at the schematic for the ECB, I cannot find any description of the > signals BAI, BAO, IEI, and IEO. Can anyone shed some light on the function > of these signals? > Bus Acknowledge In and Out, Interrupt Enable In and Out, used for serial arbitration of the bus request and interrupt. These signals are daisy-chained rather than bused. If a any card is requesting the bus by asserting the bus request, at some point the CPU will acknowledge that by asserting its bus acknowledge output, which is wired to the BAI signal of the first bus slot. The BAO of each slot is wired to the BAI of the next slot. Since more than one card can request the bus, it is necessary for there to be some arbitration scheme to determine which card gets the bus grant. In the serial arbitration scheme, the highest priority goes to the card that is earliest in the daisy chain (closest to the CPU). If a particular card is NOT requesting the bus, it passes the BAI signal on to BAO to make the acknowledge available to the next card. If it is requesting the bus, it does not pass BAI to BAO, but instead sets BAO inactive, so that no lower-priority card will see the bus acknowledge. Similarly for how the card deals with interrupts, but using the IEI and IEO as the daisy chain. This is a common technique since the 1960s, and for microcomputers was used by Intel Multibus in 1975, and by Zilog Z80 family peripherals in 1976. The drawback is that if there are a lot of cards, there can be a long propagation delay of the interrupt acknowledge from the CPU to the last card of the bus, particularly if routing the IEI/IEO chain through NMOS Z80 peripherals. That can cause no device to respond to the interrupt acknowledge with a vector by the time the CPU needs it. This can be solved by adding wait states to the interrupt vector read, or by using a parallel arbitration scheme instead of serial. Parallel arbitration can be done with the same slot pin assignments, but instead of busing the request and daisy-chaining the acknowledge, the requests are each separately fed into a priority encoder. The "any" output of the encoder goes to the request input of the CPU. The acknowledge from the CPU goes into the enable of a decoder, and the select inputs of the decoder come from the priority encoder, so that each slot gets its own decoded acknowledge signal to its BAI input. In this case the backplane doesn't connect the BAO output of a slot to anything. This parallel arbitration scheme can be used for bus request and/or interrupt request. Eric From brain at jbrain.com Sun Nov 19 15:16:17 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 15:16:17 -0600 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <37495bea-3a3f-3c7b-d385-77bef75b93eb@e-bbes.com> <7e4bff49-3508-6eef-0269-610b4adcf7db@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <8321c1fe-705e-86db-d6a1-51e4d0d7bd75@jbrain.com> On 11/19/2017 2:43 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Similarly for how the card deals with interrupts, but using the IEI > and IEO as the daisy chain. Thanks for the context.? I think the fact that !BUSAK is present on A31 threw me https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=boards:ecb:backplane-3:backplane.pdf and the fact that I don't see that the ECB routes BUSAK from the CPU card to BAI of the first slot > > Parallel arbitration can be done with the same slot pin assignments, > but instead of busing the request and daisy-chaining the acknowledge, > the requests are each separately fed into a priority encoder.? The > "any" output of the encoder goes to the request input of the CPU.? The > acknowledge from the CPU goes into the enable of a decoder, and the > select inputs of the decoder come from the priority encoder, so that > each slot gets its own decoded acknowledge signal to its BAI input.? > In this case the backplane doesn't connect the BAO output of a slot to > anything.?? This parallel arbitration scheme can be used for bus > request and/or interrupt request. I like this idea better.? Is there any implementation docs you might suggest? (I have the Bus Handbook on order, but it has not arrived) I also am unclear on how ECB handles dual CPUs, if it does at all. Jim > > Eric > -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 19 16:22:57 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 15:22:57 -0700 Subject: Slightly OT: Computer internals book recommendations In-Reply-To: <7B9D09B1-5EE1-4F8A-A519-B7B1609FC60F@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <20171118235710.GA79431@gmail.com> <7B9D09B1-5EE1-4F8A-A519-B7B1609FC60F@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <388d64d1-a75b-a14b-deae-3d004ef52ca9@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/19/2017 12:29 AM, Huw Davies via cctalk wrote: > > >> On 19 Nov 2017, at 10:57, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: >> >> Basically, I'm looking for a certain book (although really any book in >> the same vein would satisfy), which was on computer system architecture, >> organization, etc.; it talked about the usual boolean logic, assembly >> programming in some fictitious instruction set, an overview of two >> actual architectures (I think at that time they were 32-bit x86 and >> 64-bit POWER). The other thing I remember very specifically was there >> was a place near the back (probably an appendix) that talked about >> one or more specific buses (I think at least PCI was there), with timing >> diagrams to tell you what was actually going back and forth between the >> bus and CPU. >> > > Sounds like either > > Computer Architecture: A Quantitative Approach by David Patterson and John Hennessy > > Computer Organization and Design: the Hardware/Software Interface by David Patterson and John Hennessy > > I see there?s a MIPS edition of the second book. My copy of the second book has Hennessy as the first author. > > Time for a re-read - it?s been a while since I read both of them. > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au > Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the > Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" Is the first editon of the second book not MIPS? I want to read a book on stuff when the book was written, not the latest FAD or current marketing GIMMIC. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 19 16:28:26 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 15:28:26 -0700 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <20171119005755.GB79431@gmail.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <790CAA89-3B9A-4F16-9AB3-8BCDD93949FC@comcast.net> <2be740b4-3725-cc33-3b07-69d565320f1b@jbrain.com> <424c1745-f58d-cae9-6878-8b74b31353b4@jetnet.ab.ca> <20171119005755.GB79431@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8da75841-a75e-7841-ef76-fef890fa95e0@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/18/2017 5:57 PM, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Nov 17, 2017, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/17/2017 6:59 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> On 11/17/2017 05:34 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> It does not have to be fast.? I rather thought, "what is the simplest >>>> multi-cpu shared bus that could be easily understood by folks and allow >>>> them to focus on multi-processing education, not bus understanding" >>> >>> How about a serial bus? Physically simple and not too awful logically >>> today. Say, I2C or SPI... >>> >>> --Chuck >> >> Say USB-version 101101100 :) > > Sorry to be dense, but are you referring to some actual USB version? Or > did you mean something like "one of the many USB versions, some not yet > released"? (101101100 is 364 in binary, but I don't see the significance > of that.) As FOGHORN LEGHORN once said. ?That?s a joke, I say that?s a joke son? From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Nov 19 17:03:12 2017 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 15:03:12 -0800 Subject: LA30 parts and question In-Reply-To: <0cf1fc8a-6aae-a877-2268-b036e962920d@fritzm.org> References: <0cf1fc8a-6aae-a877-2268-b036e962920d@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <2B34A719-AEC8-4D35-B236-FE328CD3A3F6@fritzm.org> Hi all, an update on the sourcing questions below: > On Nov 11, 2017, at 5:53 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > > I noticed that a few of the thin steel ribbon springs in the paper path are missing or broken on my unit, and some of the rubber bushings have hardened and deteriorated. Long shot ask, but wondering if anybody out there has spares of: > > 74-08648 (Spring, paper drag) > 12-10357-3 (Bushing, rubber mount) > 12-10358-3 (Ring, rubber mount) > > Also, the maintenance manual recommends Molykote B2KR for lubrication in a few places, but I can't seem to find specs on what this was. Can anybody recommend an equivalent modern alternative grease? For the paper drag springs, I ended up just fashioning some replacements from some .002 steel shim stock (easy enough; just some 1/2? x 3? strips with holes.) For the bushing and rings, these have the right dimensions and look very close to the original parts: http://www.vibrationmounts.com/RFQ/VM07003.htm I?ll probably order some of these up to replace the decaying mounts for the carriage assembly. I ended up just using some inexpensive 3/8? chassis grommets for the more straightforward end stop bumpers. For the grease, which is called out for the carriage loading cams and a couple of linkage pins/pivots, I opted for Molykote BR2 Plus, though I suppose any decent lithium grease would work okay here? Overall, I have been pretty amazed by the sheer number of machined parts, castings, high quality bearings, etc. within this beast. Lots of stainless steel throughout. Sure wouldn?t find anything built this way these days! What a tank. cheers, --FritzM. From chrise at pobox.com Sun Nov 19 17:59:33 2017 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 17:59:33 -0600 Subject: Looking for Silent 700 model 787 manual Message-ID: <20171119235933.GP2157@n0jcf.net> I recently acquired a TI Silent 700 model 787 terminal. This cc 1980 unit is an interesting member of the Silent 700 family as it is capable of 120 chars/sec printing and has an internal 300/1200 baud direct connect modem that does Bell 103, Bell 212A and Vadic modulation in both originate and answer modes. It's a got a DB25 on the back for directly connecting serial but I don't have any documentation on how to choose the internal modem vs the DB25 for comms or any pinouts for this DB25 outside the usual expectations of RS232 on a DB25. Seeking any documentation that might be around. Happy to cover copying costs or purchase a manual if it is excess to someone's needs. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 19 19:46:11 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 17:46:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for Silent 700 model 787 manual In-Reply-To: <20171119235933.GP2157@n0jcf.net> References: <20171119235933.GP2157@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Nov 2017, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > I recently acquired a TI Silent 700 model 787 terminal. This cc 1980 > unit is an interesting member of the Silent 700 family as it is capable > of 120 chars/sec printing and has an internal 300/1200 baud direct connect > modem that does Bell 103, Bell 212A and Vadic modulation in both originate > and answer modes. > It's a got a DB25 on the back for directly connecting serial but I don't > have any documentation on how to choose the internal modem vs the DB25 > for comms or any pinouts for this DB25 outside the usual expectations > of RS232 on a DB25. Some models of Silent 700 had a connector (I seem to remember it as maybe being DA-15?, instead of DB-25?) that permitted it to connect to external modem, AND permitted external devices to connect to the Silent 700 internal modem, or a loop back (defaulted to jumpered to that internally) ofconnecting the terminal to its modem. From chrise at pobox.com Sun Nov 19 21:18:31 2017 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 21:18:31 -0600 Subject: Looking for Silent 700 model 787 manual In-Reply-To: References: <20171119235933.GP2157@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20171120031831.GR2157@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (11/19/2017 at 05:46PM -0800), Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 19 Nov 2017, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > >I recently acquired a TI Silent 700 model 787 terminal. This cc 1980 > >unit is an interesting member of the Silent 700 family as it is capable > >of 120 chars/sec printing and has an internal 300/1200 baud direct connect > >modem that does Bell 103, Bell 212A and Vadic modulation in both originate > >and answer modes. > >It's a got a DB25 on the back for directly connecting serial but I don't > >have any documentation on how to choose the internal modem vs the DB25 > >for comms or any pinouts for this DB25 outside the usual expectations > >of RS232 on a DB25. > > Some models of Silent 700 had a connector (I seem to remember it as maybe > being DA-15?, instead of DB-25?) that permitted it to connect to external > modem, AND permitted external devices to connect to the Silent 700 internal > modem, or a loop back (defaulted to jumpered to that internally) > ofconnecting the terminal to its modem. Yes indeed. I have several of those, model 745 as one example, and it is a DA15 for which I have the pinout and made a cable for hooking to various old micros here. This 787 is a later generation with some noticable differences in the connectoring, switches, LEDs, etc. It is for sure a DB25 female and below that, behind a flip-up cover, is an RJ11/13 (six pin) telephone jack for the modem. The unit is also taller/thicker than the 745 generation. It's roughly another inch thick with the extra bulk on the bottom. At first I thought it might be a model with bubble memory but it is not. Instead, it's the "go faster" model with 120cps rather than 30cps printing. There is a flip-card instruction manual inside the paper door which does reveal some keyboard commands to change the baud rate (up to 9600 bps) and the modem modulation and answer vs originate but there are no clues about how to select modem or serial port or other more hardware specific things. Will be on the hunt for a service manual now. I have such for both my 1st (model 725) and 2nd (model 745) generation units so might as well get one for this beast too. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 21:19:47 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 22:19:47 -0500 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <37495bea-3a3f-3c7b-d385-77bef75b93eb@e-bbes.com> <7e4bff49-3508-6eef-0269-610b4adcf7db@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <3ce081fc-5170-96b0-cac8-b8c02c63f90f@gmail.com> On 11/19/2017 03:43 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Looking at the schematic for the ECB, I cannot find any description of the >> signals BAI, BAO, IEI, and IEO. Can anyone shed some light on the function >> of these signals? >> > Bus Acknowledge In and Out, Interrupt Enable In and Out, used for serial > arbitration of the bus request and interrupt. These signals are > daisy-chained rather than bused. > > If a any card is requesting the bus by asserting the bus request, at some > point the CPU will acknowledge that by asserting its bus acknowledge > output, which is wired to the BAI signal of the first bus slot. The BAO of > each slot is wired to the BAI of the next slot. Since more than one card > can request the bus, it is necessary for there to be some arbitration > scheme to determine which card gets the bus grant. In the serial > arbitration scheme, the highest priority goes to the card that is earliest > in the daisy chain (closest to the CPU). If a particular card is NOT > requesting the bus, it passes the BAI signal on to BAO to make the > acknowledge available to the next card. If it is requesting the bus, it > does not pass BAI to BAO, but instead sets BAO inactive, so that no > lower-priority card will see the bus acknowledge. > > Similarly for how the card deals with interrupts, but using the IEI and IEO > as the daisy chain. > > This is a common technique since the 1960s, and for microcomputers was used > by Intel Multibus in 1975, and by Zilog Z80 family peripherals in 1976. > > The drawback is that if there are a lot of cards, there can be a long > propagation delay of the interrupt acknowledge from the CPU to the last > card of the bus, particularly if routing the IEI/IEO chain through NMOS Z80 > peripherals. That asumes z80 and a default bus master...? What if the CPU? is 6502 or still other. > That can cause no device to respond to the interrupt > acknowledge with a vector by the time the CPU needs it. This can be solved > by adding wait states to the interrupt vector read, or by using a parallel > arbitration scheme instead of serial. It also assumes and interrupt vector read.? Not al cpus do that or it can be very implementation dependent. Its not a what bus us better its what bus suits the system and matching CPU. > Parallel arbitration can be done with the same slot pin assignments, but > instead of busing the request and daisy-chaining the acknowledge, the > requests are each separately fed into a priority encoder. The "any" output > of the encoder goes to the request input of the CPU. The acknowledge from > the CPU goes into the enable of a decoder, and the select inputs of the > decoder come from the priority encoder, so that each slot gets its own > decoded acknowledge signal to its BAI input. In this case the backplane > doesn't connect the BAO output of a slot to anything. This parallel > arbitration scheme can be used for bus request and/or interrupt request. The rest is the specific implementation.? What happens if the CPU is 1802 or something else that does not match the 6500 or 8080z80 models. Buses and systems are not software abstractions they are hardware implementation and often driven by the host CPU as well as over all system needs.? If this wasn't true why do so many different buses exist? Allison > Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 19 21:31:43 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 19:31:43 -0800 Subject: Wanted: HP7970 hub mech Message-ID: This is a pretty far-fetched request, but here goes. The quick-release levers on the HP 7970 tape drive are plastic. They're starting to get brittle. I've got one that's showing cracks, so I swapped it the the one on the takeup reel, as that one doesn't see as much action as the one on the supply reel. What I'd really like to find is the older twist-to-tighten mechanisms on the 7970. I suppose I can get busy in my shop and make some, but I'm wondering if there are any lurking in someone's hell box. Thanks for reading! Chuck From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 21:36:12 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 22:36:12 -0500 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <20171119135402.3B4EA18C0F5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171119135402.3B4EA18C0F5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <307bb05c-5acb-e234-c12b-25242db7d857@gmail.com> On 11/19/2017 08:54 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Allison > > > simple 16 data, 24 address likely 6 lines for basic control plus others > > your up to 50+ lines > > I would seriously consider shared data/address lines, like on the QBUS. It > doesn't add _that_ much complexity to share the lines (I did a slave device > using only 74xxx parts, and it was dead simple - probably a goal of the > designers), and it will really drop the pin count. The speed impact is not > too bad - on reads, where the address and data naturally happen at different > times, it can be none. > > Noel QBUS is wrapped around a subset of PDP11 and the unique processors made to fit it. The problem is carries is every card has to demux the bus that has hardware cost on every card. if the CPU doesn't initially multiplex the CPU card carries the weight of creating that muxed bus.??? Dec had a full set of unique devices to do this. I may add that things like PDP-11 with read before write adding its own special set of issues for peripherals. The problem with multiplexed buses is speed cost.? You have to use fast parts that are compatible with the bus levels and the bus may have to be artfully constructed to avoid issues that occur when operating at high speed. ? The other is how do you multiplex for example look and devices like 8085, 8088, z80 and 6502 the timing overheard? is different and the bus could even contradict something like the 8085/8088 which is already multiplexed. The bottom line is for every bus you have to get on and off with devices to buffer and possibly latch signals.? The more you? use the less card there is for other things and likely the mode complex the card and its related timings will be. Its s solution when pins and their cost is more important that logic.? The old saw Speed, quality, price pick any two applies.? Added complexity will add cost or slow development and maybe even add bugs. Allison From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 21:51:56 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 19:51:56 -0800 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <3ce081fc-5170-96b0-cac8-b8c02c63f90f@gmail.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <37495bea-3a3f-3c7b-d385-77bef75b93eb@e-bbes.com> <7e4bff49-3508-6eef-0269-610b4adcf7db@jbrain.com> <3ce081fc-5170-96b0-cac8-b8c02c63f90f@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 19, 2017 7:18 PM, "allison via cctalk" wrote: The rest is the specific implementation. What happens if the CPU is 1802 or something else that does not match the 6500 or 8080z80 models. There is nothing that prevents either the serial or parallel arbitration schemes from working with other processors. In the case of the 1802, it would work easily for interrupts, but would need some additional circuitry for DMA, because the 1802 doesn't include any feature whereby another bus master can request that the 1802 surrender control of the bus. Instead, the 1802 has a built-in single-channel DMA controller. That 1802 bus master problem exists for interfacing _any_ sort of bus master to any 1802, and is totally independent of what kind of DMA arbitration is chosen. From seefriek at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 22:11:40 2017 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 23:11:40 -0500 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus Message-ID: I've always thought STD-Bus missed a real opportunity here. Small enough to be cost effective (relative to the size of, say, S-100 (bonus, no stupid power supply issues)), sane, flexible enough bus structure that I believe there are at least CPU cards using: - 4004/4040 (pre-standard?) - 8080/8085/Z-80 and the myriad of variants - 8088/8086/80188/10186 through at least 80486, including variants and second sources - 8048/8051 and the vast numbers of variants - 8096/8097 and variants - 6800 and variants - 68HC11 and variants - 6809/6309 - 6502 and variants - 68xxx and variants up to at least the 68040 and 68332 - TMS9900/9995 - RCA 1802 - Signetics 2650 - Novix Forth More importantly, the vast number of compatible I/O cards that were produced. Much alternative history to be pondered. KJ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 19 23:54:19 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 21:54:19 -0800 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e0fd332-1be5-10d6-fb26-ce7bc90a3582@sydex.com> On 11/19/2017 08:11 PM, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > More importantly, the vast number of compatible I/O cards that were > produced. Much alternative history to be pondered. So we agree on parallel standard buses, that STD bus is a strong contender with varied processor base. There *is* STD32, but it's a bit of an abomination, like EISA. It extends the bus to 32 bits and retains compatibility with 8-bit STD. But there's a price to be paid--special connectors (like EISA) and more complex interfacing logic (to accommodate the older STD). Finally, it's pretty much a sole-source standard--Ziatech came out with it, and to the best of my knowledge, is the only firm that ever produced STD32 cards. --Chuck From alan at alanlee.org Mon Nov 20 00:52:07 2017 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 01:52:07 -0500 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <1e0fd332-1be5-10d6-fb26-ce7bc90a3582@sydex.com> References: <1e0fd332-1be5-10d6-fb26-ce7bc90a3582@sydex.com> Message-ID: If you ever look at how interrupts are implemented on STD bus, you'll run in fear. There are only two options, chain the slot to slot interrupt line (assuming all slots are filled downstream of the CPU) and share the one request signal - implementing any CPU-specific interrupt requirements like an vector placement for x86 - or you can home run IRQ lines independently of the STD bus signals. Most cards did the later or just put all peripherals that will ever need IRQs on the CPU card itself. STD bus is pretty antiquated. -Alan On 2017-11-20 00:54, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/19/2017 08:11 PM, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > >> More importantly, the vast number of compatible I/O cards that were >> produced. Much alternative history to be pondered. > > So we agree on parallel standard buses, that STD bus is a strong > contender with varied processor base. > > There *is* STD32, but it's a bit of an abomination, like EISA. It > extends the bus to 32 bits and retains compatibility with 8-bit STD. > But there's a price to be paid--special connectors (like EISA) and more > complex interfacing logic (to accommodate the older STD). > > Finally, it's pretty much a sole-source standard--Ziatech came out with > it, and to the best of my knowledge, is the only firm that ever > produced > STD32 cards. > > --Chuck From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 01:00:18 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 23:00:18 -0800 Subject: Wanted: HP7970 hub mech In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003401d361cd$3a5efd10$af1cf730$@gmail.com> I didn't even know there was such a thing as a twist to tighten on the HP7970. On the 7970A maybe? Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 7:32 PM To: CCtalk Subject: Wanted: HP7970 hub mech This is a pretty far-fetched request, but here goes. The quick-release levers on the HP 7970 tape drive are plastic. They're starting to get brittle. I've got one that's showing cracks, so I swapped it the the one on the takeup reel, as that one doesn't see as much action as the one on the supply reel. What I'd really like to find is the older twist-to-tighten mechanisms on the 7970. I suppose I can get busy in my shop and make some, but I'm wondering if there are any lurking in someone's hell box. Thanks for reading! Chuck From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 06:49:13 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 07:49:13 -0500 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <37495bea-3a3f-3c7b-d385-77bef75b93eb@e-bbes.com> <7e4bff49-3508-6eef-0269-610b4adcf7db@jbrain.com> <3ce081fc-5170-96b0-cac8-b8c02c63f90f@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7aa68944-d551-756f-ebd6-7b1641da5ef4@gmail.com> On 11/19/2017 10:51 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Nov 19, 2017 7:18 PM, "allison via cctalk" > wrote: > > The rest is the specific implementation.? What happens if the CPU is > 1802 or something else that does not match the 6500 or 8080z80 models. > > > There is nothing that prevents either the serial or parallel > arbitration schemes from working with other processors. > Understood but not always easily applied. > In the case of the 1802, it would work easily for interrupts, but > would need some additional circuitry for DMA, because the 1802 doesn't > include any feature whereby another bus master can request that the > 1802 surrender control of the bus. Instead, the 1802 has a built-in > single-channel DMA controller. > Its why I picked that one. > That 1802 bus master problem exists for interfacing _any_ sort of bus > master to any 1802, and is totally independent of what kind of DMA > arbitration is chosen. > True, but as a potential candidate on a generalized bus how do you handle that, besides wait states or processor clock stall? Of course being CMOS its easily done at a cost of performance. All of this is targeting a generalized bus to run a large selection of cpus possibly mixed with radically different bus cycles. Allison From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 07:40:31 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 08:40:31 -0500 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: References: <1e0fd332-1be5-10d6-fb26-ce7bc90a3582@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/20/2017 01:52 AM, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > If you ever look at how interrupts are implemented on STD bus, you'll > run in fear.? There are only two options, chain the slot to slot > interrupt line (assuming all slots are filled downstream of the CPU) > and share the one request signal - implementing any CPU-specific > interrupt requirements like an vector placement for x86 - or you can > home run IRQ lines independently of the STD bus signals.? Most cards > did the later or just put all peripherals that will ever need IRQs on > the CPU card itself. The chained interrupt was not bad as it was consistent with the z80 (bus origin).? You post an interrupt and the cpu grabs the address vector off the bus during the Interrupt ACK cycle.? The bus assumed the IEI, IEO of Z80 peripherals.?? If you using other peripherals you have to have logic you equivocate that or force RST-7. the elephant in the room for STD is that the bus controls are z80 signals and timing including the short M1 state and refresh (if z80). >>STD bus is pretty antiquated. Name a bus that isn't 20+ years old or more.? Many PC either do not have a bus or its functionally specific such as memory, disk, Ethernet, or USB. ? Those that had buses are old and how many PC buses are there over the years? Ethernet is as much a bus these days as any.? Its fast, can address a lot of stuff despite a high cost to get on the bus or off... and its what nearing 40 years old? Most CPUs on the chip level are antiquated. so a bus thats old sorta fits. The same thing for S100.? S100 started as a split data bus plus all the raw control signals the 8080 spat out including a ttl version of the cpu clock.? Ignoring timing S1000 has had the widest variety of CPUs applied from 1802 though LSI-11 and TI9900 and even as recent as 486.? most of the console machines (Atari, TRS80, Apple, Commodore) don't cont as they were largely single processor and single master.? The exceptions that will pop up are tightly integrated (Visual 1050 and C124) so that the bus never sees the differences or likely anything out on the bus needs to know.? In most cases the bus is a simplified version of the CPU control signals. One of the hardest bus issues is what are the advanced controls needed for data bus direction vs any read/write signal to the memory or IO on the target card. Goes back to the origin question of why all those when many of the processors and their intrinsic peripherals are mutually exclusive?? If the bus is a tool for training people about shared buses with multiple CPUs? it would seem keeping it simple so that other issues of the system level can be studied such as atomic operations for CPUs that don't have them and mutual exclusion or interlocking to prevent? a cpu from stepping on anothers in-process work.? Then there is memory management if there is global memory on the bus as an example of resource sharing and allocation. Creating a bus to accommodate any one cpu at a time is far more straightforward and there are plenty of examples than one that is running a mix of many cpus. Allison > > -Alan > > > On 2017-11-20 00:54, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/19/2017 08:11 PM, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: >> >>> More importantly, the vast number of compatible I/O cards that were >>> produced.? Much alternative history to be pondered. >> >> So we agree on parallel standard buses, that STD bus is a strong >> contender with varied processor base. >> >> There *is* STD32, but it's a bit of an abomination, like EISA.? It >> extends the bus to 32 bits and retains compatibility with 8-bit STD. >> But there's a price to be paid--special connectors (like EISA) and more >> complex interfacing logic (to accommodate the older STD). >> >> Finally, it's pretty much a sole-source standard--Ziatech came out with >> it, and to the best of my knowledge, is the only firm that ever produced >> STD32 cards. >> >> --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 08:35:07 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 15:35:07 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: <20171117180252.GA29310@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20171117180252.GA29310@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On 17 November 2017 at 19:02, Tomasz Rola wrote: > > Please excuse me if my remark is unnecessary, but if I read you right, > you have: > > 1. Downloaded "empty" disk image - which apparently boots enough to > display two dots No. The original DR-DOS Enhancement Project website -- http://www.drdosprojects.de/ -- is no longer there. The download I found for 7.01-8 was here: https://archiveos.org/drdos/ This download includes what it claims is a bootable diskette. It is not a bootable diskette. It is an empty diskette image. What I've done is make it bootable. > 2. Copied system (DOS) files on it (say, from backup) No, from within the same download archive. > 3. You have not erased the boot-sector-from-the-i-net? So it is there > and still boots the (now fully functional) DOS? Yes. > If so, perhaps you should start over from totally new, empty image? I can do, but I need some more tools in my VM first. Unfortunately my Mac with the more complete disk image is currently out of action. > Not copy from your currently working image, but from your backup. Just > in case. I can try it. > Or at least try to disassemble the boot sector to see what it > is doing (I have no idea how, but somehow it must be possible). > "Things" can escape from VMs. I have plenty of Xen warnings and bug > descriptions in my old mailboxes, chances are there will be more. It's possible. I'm not working on Windows systems, so I don't have virus scanners in place. >> All I need to do now is work out how to make the hard disk bootable, >> and I'm in business. > > Boot some other OS, (I am partial to GRML Linux, well packed with > rescue stuff and more - https://grml.org/ ); + fdisk, mark bootable? Er, yes. Thanks. I _do_ know about managing DOS hard disks, thanks. :-) The problem is that the DR-DOS 7.01 tools cannot use the 7.01-8 files to make a bootable volume in the normal ways (wither ``FORMAT /S'' or format then ''SYS [drive letter]:''. So I need to try other things, which are not on the current system. >> The DR-DOS 7 SYS command won't do it, as the files aren't named >> IBMBIOS.COM and IBMSYS.COM -- they're DRBIO.SYS and DRSYS.SYS. >> >> I copied them to the expected names. SYS completes but the disk won't boot. > > Perhaps you should try again, copying one file each time, in the right > sequence (I do not recall, which one, but only two files, similarly to > how sys would do it). I did such "manual sys" once on MSDOS 6 (5???) > floppy and it worked (booted). It can sometimes work but it's not guaranteed. I have tried all the obvious methods. Now I am going to need 3rd party tools. The same problems are preventing me from making a PC DOS 7.1 hard disk image bootable: the older DOS commands won't use the newer "kernel" files. > Watcom C? > DJGPP? Er, no. I am not compiling anything here. I am merely trying to make some already-available parts into a working system. > I keep promising myself to do such stuff one day, only with FreeDOS, > plus some utils to refresh my long forgotten i386 assembler. So, it is > probably FASM nowadays. And some editor which is at least minimally > usable... Or some really cheap alternative, with the same under > DOSBOX. FreeDOS is fine if you like it. For me, it is just a little too unlike the "real thing" for comfort. And as I'm interested in playing with some fairly extreme DOS stuff -- multitaskers (DESQview, etc.) and so on -- I want the highest level of compatibility I can achieve. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 09:40:47 2017 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 09:40:47 -0600 Subject: Looking for Silent 700 model 787 manual In-Reply-To: <20171120031831.GR2157@n0jcf.net> References: <20171119235933.GP2157@n0jcf.net> <20171120031831.GR2157@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 9:18 PM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > Yes indeed. I have several of those, model 745 as one example, and it > is a DA15 for which I have the pinout and made a cable for hooking to > various old micros here. Is that posted/can you post that cable pinout somewhere? I've got a number of those models and have never been able to attach anything to those ports. From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Nov 20 09:41:11 2017 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 15:41:11 +0000 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <1e0fd332-1be5-10d6-fb26-ce7bc90a3582@sydex.com> References: <1e0fd332-1be5-10d6-fb26-ce7bc90a3582@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 19, 2017, at 11:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > So we agree on parallel standard buses, that STD bus is a strong > contender with varied processor base. Catching up late, sorry if this is an old question, but what did the Digital Group computers use? My recollection is that they offered cards with 6800, 6502, 8080, and Z-80 CPUs on the same bus, and that part of the system seemed to work reasonably well. (At least, the Digital Group system complaints I read seem to center on the PhiDeck mass storage system not the CPU/memorylperihperal bus.) There is a nice website at: http://www.bytecollector.com/dg_cards.htm which seems to show cards with not a whole lot of pins to connect to the bus - maybe 36 pins on the visible side, though the card is definitely 2-sided so probably 36 more on the back side? From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Nov 20 11:57:11 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 09:57:11 -0800 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: <20171117180252.GA29310@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On 11/20/2017 6:35 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On 17 November 2017 at 19:02, Tomasz Rola wrote: >> Please excuse me if my remark is unnecessary, but if I read you right, >> you have: >> >> 1. Downloaded "empty" disk image - which apparently boots enough to >> display two dots > No. > > The original DR-DOS Enhancement Project website -- > http://www.drdosprojects.de/ -- is no longer there. The downloads page for this seems to be relatively intact on archive.org.? I didn't see you had checked there for their original work. > The download I found for 7.01-8 was here: > > https://archiveos.org/drdos/ > > This download includes what it claims is a bootable diskette. It is > not a bootable diskette. It is an empty diskette image. > > What I've done is make it bootable. > The archive.org snapshots may have had the blank images, but they also seem to have grabbed the archived downloads as well. This is an arbitrary link to the 3/26/2016 snapshot.? There are quite a few others, and I didn't try anything yet to see if the data is good or not. https://web.archive.org/web/20160326184121/http://www.drdosprojects.de/index.cgi/download.htm Thanks Jim From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 20 12:18:49 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 10:18:49 -0800 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: References: <1e0fd332-1be5-10d6-fb26-ce7bc90a3582@sydex.com> Message-ID: <024ed035-d696-c737-4ffc-36abc0022ed8@sydex.com> On 11/20/2017 05:40 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > Creating a bus to accommodate any one cpu at a time is far more > straightforward and there are plenty of > examples than one that is running a mix of many cpus. Oddly enough, I'm in agreement. :) Today, it really makes little sense to have memory, CPU and high-speed peripherals on separate bus slots. At least for the cases being discussed, memory is dense and inexpensive enough that there's really no good reason to put it somewhere else. Data transfer between peripheral devices and CPUs is a different matter and can be handled by existing serial buses--which is what I thought the original question was. --Chuck From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 13:37:41 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 14:37:41 -0500 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <024ed035-d696-c737-4ffc-36abc0022ed8@sydex.com> References: <1e0fd332-1be5-10d6-fb26-ce7bc90a3582@sydex.com> <024ed035-d696-c737-4ffc-36abc0022ed8@sydex.com> Message-ID: <60fdd696-b0b2-ebb5-8e64-4f1c83e6931b@gmail.com> On 11/20/2017 01:18 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/20/2017 05:40 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > >> Creating a bus to accommodate any one cpu at a time is far more >> straightforward and there are plenty of >> examples than one that is running a mix of many cpus. > Oddly enough, I'm in agreement. :) > > Today, it really makes little sense to have memory, CPU and high-speed > peripherals on separate bus slots. At least for the cases being > discussed, memory is dense and inexpensive enough that there's really no > good reason to put it somewhere else. A good example would be a matrix of SBCs (with local memory, IO as needed) that communicate via common bus be it parallel or serial.? The key then is addressing and arbitration.? A protocol to hand packet communication is easy and doing? either a request/grant? master slave from the current bus master , token bus, or CSMA/CD are all possible. > Data transfer between peripheral devices and CPUs is a different matter > and can be handled by existing serial buses--which is what I thought the > original question was. Likely true but IO can be local to a CPU or several and handled for other CPUs as "tasks". Of course then the concept moves to system space where the SBC are components and programming is more complex in organization.? Likely more fun rather than hammering out hardware.? Then again I'd find that part fun as well.??? I did that back when with a S100 machine expanded with multiple Z80s(local ram and MMU), global mmemory and? 8085s and 8749s to have intelligent peripherals and? shared loading and tasks.? An interesting experiment and some elements still are in operation.?? However software development of the day (1980) was primitive and some concepts were only experimental.? Networking was one of the things most productive and lead to many hardware simplifications.? It proved that while CP/M was a good single thread development environment it had limits that only a new OS could overcome.? The most significant was resource management (memory, storage, and IO) followed by task and process management.?? Allison > --Chuck > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 20 14:09:49 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 15:09:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus Message-ID: <20171120200949.4567918C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Allison >> I would seriously consider shared data/address lines, like on the QBUS. > QBUS is wrapped around a subset of PDP11 and the unique processors made > to fit it. I did say "like ... the QBUS", not "the QBUS"! I was just trying to make the point that the original sketch assumed separate address and data lines, and that's an assumption worth looking at. > The bottom line is for every bus you have to get on and off with > devices to buffer ... The more you use the less card there is for other > things Yes, but that cuts both ways: multiplexed address and data also saves you a lot of bus transceivers. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 20 14:20:10 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 12:20:10 -0800 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <60fdd696-b0b2-ebb5-8e64-4f1c83e6931b@gmail.com> References: <1e0fd332-1be5-10d6-fb26-ce7bc90a3582@sydex.com> <024ed035-d696-c737-4ffc-36abc0022ed8@sydex.com> <60fdd696-b0b2-ebb5-8e64-4f1c83e6931b@gmail.com> Message-ID: <25cdbc1c-afdb-f247-ae53-18bca533493a@sydex.com> On 11/20/2017 11:37 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > I did that back when with a S100 machine expanded with multiple > Z80s(local ram and MMU), global mmemory and 8085s and 8749s to have > intelligent peripherals and shared loading and tasks. An interesting > experiment and some elements still are in operation. However > software development of the day (1980) was primitive and some > concepts were only experimental. Networking was one of the things > most productive and lead to many hardware simplifications. It proved > that while CP/M was a good single thread development environment it > had limits that only a new OS could overcome. The most significant > was resource management (memory, storage, and IO) followed by task > and process management. I did a similar thing, ca 1985-6 with a bunch of commodity PCSs in a fault-tolerant setup and used a simple machine-to-machine full-duplex serial connection, using shift registers and short twisted-pair differential connections. Uncomplicated protocol and simple to implement. I'd have to go back to my old documents and see what the link speed was, but IIRC, it was pretty fast, in the megabit/second range. The limiting factor was the ISA bus it was hooked to. --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Mon Nov 20 14:42:29 2017 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 14:42:29 -0600 Subject: Looking for Silent 700 model 787 manual In-Reply-To: References: <20171119235933.GP2157@n0jcf.net> <20171120031831.GR2157@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20171120204229.GH1992@n0jcf.net> On Monday (11/20/2017 at 09:40AM -0600), Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 9:18 PM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk > wrote: > > Yes indeed. I have several of those, model 745 as one example, and it > > is a DA15 for which I have the pinout and made a cable for hooking to > > various old micros here. > > Is that posted/can you post that cable pinout somewhere? I've got a > number of those models and have never been able to attach anything to > those ports. Hey Jason-- It's here, (Thank You Al) http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ti/terminal/silent_700/984025-9701rC_743_KSR_745_Portable_Maintenance_Manual_Jul78.pdf page 2-3, table 2-1 (pdf page 13). I think the terminal is normally supplied with a "loopback" plug (that's almost always missing) that goes into that DA15-M and loops the "printer/keyboard interface" to the "communications interface" when you are using the onboard acoustic coupler. If you want to talk to a local host not over the modem, then you remove that loopback plug and plug in your own cable that goes to your host. I made this cable with DA-15 female on one end and DE9-male on the other so that this terminal would look like a PC serial port and connect to various DCEs such as a terminal server and other stuff I have here wired for direct connect to a PC comm port, DA15-F DE9-M 1 5 GND 11 1 CD 12 2 RXD (to the terminal) 13 3 TXD (from the terminal) 15 4 DTR Keep on the lookout for a model 787 manual. This thing is cleaning up quite nicely and I hope to put the juice to it later today or tomorrow. It was found on the floor of a garage-- that would be the dirt floor. Not cool and it looked pretty rough on the outside but hoping it's still happy on the inside ;-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 15:36:47 2017 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 13:36:47 -0800 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: References: <1e0fd332-1be5-10d6-fb26-ce7bc90a3582@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 5:40 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > Creating a bus to accommodate any one cpu at a time is far more > straightforward and there are plenty of > examples than one that is running a mix of many cpus. > > Dim memory of U. of. WA School of Dentistry running a hybrid PDP-11 (16 bits) / PDP-15 (18 bits) on a shared bus (UNIBUS?); the -11 did the I/O, the -15 did the number crunching. -- Charles From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Mon Nov 20 05:20:17 2017 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Veit, Holger) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 12:20:17 +0100 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <11a2579b-102f-1585-8f46-d3a6db8c532f@e-bbes.com> References: <9ae823fd-6f90-f837-a4ec-cd94dbc16fac@jbrain.com> <37495bea-3a3f-3c7b-d385-77bef75b93eb@e-bbes.com> <7e4bff49-3508-6eef-0269-610b4adcf7db@jbrain.com> <11a2579b-102f-1585-8f46-d3a6db8c532f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <3dde4494-299a-cbee-d3d2-baf5d2c31832@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 19.11.2017 um 16:08 schrieb emanuel stiebler via cctalk: > On 2017-11-18 23:48, Jim Brain wrote: > > > Looking at the schematic for the ECB, I cannot find any description of > > the signals BAI, BAO, IEI, and IEO.? Can anyone shed some light on the > > function of these signals? > > Here again: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_Card_Bus > > I have some ECB documentation "somewhere", but I'm moving so it is in > one of the 100s boxes somewhere :( > > But the guys on the retrobrewcomputers can help you for sure. > > And yes, I like ECB, it was small & simple, you still can get boards > for it, and the DIN conectors I still use ... ECB is, like many similar approaches, basically Intel world, i.e. 8085, 8088, Z80 (ok, that's Zilog). It is rather tricky to adapt to the 6xxx (6502/68xx) world; and given the former Kontron et al socienty, it was basically used for a Z80 line of CPU and peripheral boards, not much else. To add another idea, why not run the IBM-XT bus on the DIN41612 connector? This is to avoid the card edge connectors. Use A+C with the classic 62 pins of the XT connector (2 are unused), and add the B pins in case to extend to the AT bus. While the XT bus is also Intel world, it has been already successfully used for 68xx (6809) multiprocessing. Read http://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/ (section "Multiprocessing for the Impoverished..."). -- Holger From petermallan at gmail.com Sat Nov 18 10:10:07 2017 From: petermallan at gmail.com (Peter Allan) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 16:10:07 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 38, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Chunk. I am going to see if Manchester University library has any old documentation that might help. Cheers Peter On 17 November 2017 at 18:00, wrote: > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and > HPIB Floppy Drive (Geoffrey Reed) > 2. Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and > HPIB Floppy Drive (Chuck Guzis) > 3. Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and > HPIB Floppy Drive (Liam Proven) > 4. Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and > HPIB Floppy Drive (Fred Cisin) > 5. TI NaturalLink Disks and Docs (Jason T) > 6. Re: HP 9836U processor mystery... (Josh Dersch) > 7. Re: Playing with HP2640B (CuriousMarc) > 8. Re: Cases (display) for beloved ISA cards? (CuriousMarc) > 9. Re: Playing with HP2640B (Christian Corti) > 10. Re: Playing with HP2640B (David Collins) > 11. Re: Playing with HP2640B (David Collins) > 12. Re: Playing with HP2640B (Mattis Lind) > 13. RE: Playing with HP2640B (Rik Bos) > 14. DR-DOS (Liam Proven) > 15. Re: TI NaturalLink Disks and Docs (Jason T) > 16. Re: DR-DOS (Liam Proven) > 17. Re: DR-DOS (Liam Proven) > 18. Re: DR-DOS (william degnan) > 19. Re: Cases (display) for beloved ISA cards? (Anders Nelson) > 20. Re: DR-DOS (geneb) > 21. Re: DR-DOS (Liam Proven) > 22. Re: DR-DOS (Liam Proven) > 23. Re: DR-DOS (geneb) > 24. Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive > (Eric Schlaepfer) > 25. Manchester University Joint System in the 1970s (Peter Allan) > 26. Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive (Paul Berger) > 27. Re: Playing with HP2640B (Christian Corti) > 28. Re: Manchester University Joint System in the 1970s (Chuck Guzis) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:30:08 -0800 > From: Geoffrey Reed > To: Fred Cisin , "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and > HPIB Floppy Drive > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > > On 11/15/17, 9:44 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk" > wrote: > > > >Can you name another 20 exceptions? (Chuck and Tony probably can) > > > > > >-- > >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > > ?Floptical? disks 720 rpm 1.6 Mb/s transfer 1250 TPI and 25MB unformatted > capacity > > LS-120 and LS-240 (which sadly I can?t remember the specs of :( > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:51:19 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis > To: Geoffrey Reed via cctalk > Subject: Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and > HPIB Floppy Drive > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > On 11/16/2017 12:30 PM, Geoffrey Reed via cctalk wrote: > > > ?Floptical? disks 720 rpm 1.6 Mb/s transfer 1250 TPI and 25MB > unformatted > > capacity > > > > LS-120 and LS-240 (which sadly I can?t remember the specs of :( > > How about the Caleb "it" drive (UHD144): > > http://www.obsoletemedia.org/caleb-uhd144/ > > I've still got a stack of those drives and media. > > Or the DTC "TakeTen" drive (got the drive but no media), or the Qume > Hyperflex drive or the Kodak/Drivetec floppy drives or the DTC TeamMate > for Apple... > > The list is very long indeed. > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 23:28:19 +0100 > From: Liam Proven > To: Geoffrey Reed , "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and > HPIB Floppy Drive > Message-ID: > mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On 16 November 2017 at 21:30, Geoffrey Reed via cctalk > wrote: > > > > ?Floptical? disks 720 rpm 1.6 Mb/s transfer 1250 TPI and 25MB > unformatted > > capacity > > Just FYI, your quote marks render on Linux as superscript 2s. > > Using an Apple device? You might want to turn off smart quotes... > > https://www.jordanmerrick.com/posts/ios-11-smart-punctuation/ > > http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/09/26/tips-turn- > off-ios-11-smart-punctuation-to-avoid-data-entry-problems > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 15:27:53 -0800 (PST) > From: Fred Cisin > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and > HPIB Floppy Drive > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > >>> No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A > drive > >>> has no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format. > >>> ;-) > >> > >> "high-density" is even more meaningless than referring to them by their > >> capacity in a given format. It is a BOGUS marketing term! > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > Fred, you should know by now that you don't need to tell *me* the correct > > definitions and terms. > > I know that, but I was addressing the entire group with my rant, and not > everybody is as closely familiar with these details as you are. > > > And with "high-density", I didn't mean the media capacity but the analog > > recording aspects like coercivity, write current, frequency and so on. > > Actually, when speaking about the MEDIA, it is much easier to create a > name that is both accurate and unambiguous. > For example, with 5.25" disks, we have "5.25 inch with 300 Oersted" and > "5.25 inch with 600 Oersted". > Of course, if somebody wants to be difficult, there are still variant > forms, including both 10 and 16 sector hard-sectored, Amlyn 600 Oersted > with special cutouts for the disk changer, Twiggy, no-notch disks for some > minor tamper resistance in software distribution, etc. > > >> Unformatted capacity would be a more correct nomenclature, although ... > > Unformatted capacity doesn't tell you much without reference to the > recording > > layout, i.e. no. of tracks, modulation, frequency and so on. > > True. > > >> Some specifications: > >> 5.25" MFM "High Density" was 360 RPM at 500,000 bits per second. (about > 1M > >> unformatted per side) > > > > What about 5?" FM "High Density" at 360 RPM? > > By "Some specifications", I meant specifications of SOME examples of the > most common form of each size. I was absolutely not intending it to be > an exhaustive, comprehensive list of all possibilities. > > > > The Amiga (more exactly, the "HD" Chinon FZ-357A drives used in Amigas) > > switched to 150 RPM to keep the raw bit rate at 250kbits/s. > > THAT is exactly what I was including as examples in my later "exceptions" > list. Although a different disk size, that is the same engineering kludge > as the Weltec 5.25" 180RPM drive. > > >> 3.5" MFM "ED" (vertical recording?/barrium ferrite) were 300 RPM at > >> 1,000,000 bits per second. (2M unformatted per side) NeXT referred to > >> theirs by the unformatted capacity: 4M, further confusing their users. > > What about FM? > > Again, just listing examples of most common, NOT intending it as a list of > all possibilities that were theoretically possible. I have never seen an > ED disk recorded FM, and do not believe that there was ever a commercial > system that used that. If you know of one, please give us the details! > > > >> Can you name another 20 exceptions? (Chuck and Tony probably can) > > > > Do you want me to start with things like 100tpi drives, GCR, M?FM, > > hard-sectored and other crazy formats? > > It can be a very long list. I was trying to stick with ones that were > very close to the main branch of our "current" evolutionary tree, but > there isn't a clear boundary. I estimate that there were approximately > 2500 different microcomputer floppy disk formats, with a large portion of > those being variant forms, not just different choices of number and size > of sectors, directory location and structure, etc. > I implemented just over 400 formats in XenoCopy that were straight-forward > to handle with IBM PC hardware. Those are not all that could have been > implemented, nor does it deny the existence of many variants, or > completely different ones that are not feasable with PC. > > > Just accept that I am not as dumb as you may think. > > I have NEVER thought that you were dumb. Everything that I have seen > of your posts has been competent and well-informed. But, I don't think > that you follow what I was attempting to convey. > > I wanted to: > 1) rant about marketing creating terminology, including "double density" > and "high density". And creating a new definition of Megabyte (1,024,000) > for the "1.44M" format (1,474,560 bytes/1.40625Mebibytes) > > 2) state my opinion that using the specific one that comprises at least > 75%? of the use of a given configuration as the name for that > configuration creates a name that is admittedly inaccurate, and fraught > with exceptions, nevertheless relatively unambiguous, at least to the > extent that purchases will usually be usable. > > If I buy "360K diskette", it will usually be the 300 Oersted 5.25 inch, > and be the closest of what is available to buy for 87.5K TRS80, > Apple2, PET, Osborne, PC 160K/180K/320K/360K, DEC Rainbow, Canon AS100, > Elcompco, Eagle, Otrona, etc. > Yes, there were people who used 41 or 42 tracks of a 40 track drive, but I > consider those to be "corner cases", to be considered as alterations, not > as the main form. > Admittedly, there were differences in testing between SSSD, DSSD, DSSD, > DSDD, and 48tpi v 96tpi marketing of disks with the same chmical > formulation. Purchasing diskettes now for something such as a DEC > Rainbow, I would settle for the 360K testing. > > If I buy "720K 3.5 inch diskette", I expect to receive 600 Oersted 3.5" > > If I buy "1.44M Diskette", I expect to receive a "HD" 3.5 inch diskette, > with about 720 to 780 Oersted. > > > BUT, as you've pointed out, when we refer to the DRIVE, we can't really be > certain that it won't be misinterpreted unless we list every spec that we > expect it to conform to. Or order by manufacturers model number. > Shugart/Matsushita 455/465/475 > Tandon TM100-2/TM100-4 > Teac 55B, 55F, 55G, 55FG, etc. > (EXAMPLES. NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS A "complete" LIST) > > BTW, Tandon made a 100tpi drive (TM100-4M) for Micropolis compatability, > but many/most? of those are mislabelled "TM100-4" (missing that critical > 'M' modifier!) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 21:16:08 -0600 > From: Jason T > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: TI NaturalLink Disks and Docs > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I have imaged disks and scanned docs for an old software authoring > tool from Texas Instruments, "NaturalLink". It runs on early IBM PCs > and was included with some docs I was given for the TI Professional > Computer, an almost-PC clone. There are a number of ads and articles > about NaturalLink in the various trade mags available via Google > Books. > > The docs are here: > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FTI/NaturalLink > > And the disk images are here: > > http://nocarrier.net/archive/floppy_images/PC/TI/NaturalLink/ > > Regular 360k MS-DOS images. I haven't tried them in DOSBox yet but > it'll probably run there. > > I have the original manuals, along with some other Professional > Computer manuals that were already on Bitsavers, free for shipping if > anyone wants them. They're not light. I can include the NaturalLink > disks as well, otherwise those will stay in my library. Unfortunately > I don't have any of the (special format) OS media for the > Professional. > > Enjoy! > > -j > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 20:11:57 -0800 > From: Josh Dersch > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: HP 9836U processor mystery... > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 4:52 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > I'm curious if other people out there with 9836U's can confirm whether > > their > > > machine has a 68000 or a 68010 in it, I'd just like to settle the > > internet > > > discrepancy once and for all :). > > > > Mine identifies the CPU as a 68010 in the power-on diagnostic. But from > > what > > I remember the PGA socket could also take a 68012 (with extra address > pins > > brought out). I don't have such a chip, so no idea what it would identify > > as. > > > > I picked up a 68012 (cheap) and stuck in in the 9836U this evening. It > works, and is identified as a 68012 during power-up diagnostics. > > So now we know. Now what am I gonna do with all that address space? :) > > - Josh > > > > > > > -tony > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 23:12:54 -0800 > From: CuriousMarc > To: Mattis Lind , "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Playing with HP2640B > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > What did you do for the screen mold? Hot wire method to separate CRT from > implosion window? Put the CRT in a hot water bath? Chip at the glue? > Marc > > > > On Nov 15, 2017, at 11:48 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I have been working on a HP 2640B terminal. It was mostly about fixing the > "screen mold" problem and cleaning up the liquids that had been seeping out > from the screen down into the bottom. > > The small coaxial wire that connects the 4.9152 MHz clock signal form the > power supply (never seen a crystal controlled SMPSU before!) to the > backplane was broken off, but after fixing that the terminal worked fine. > Just needed some adjustment to the brightness. > > With the correct terminfo installed it worked quite well as a serial > terminal to a Linux box. > > Then I tried the short 8008 programs that Christian Corti pointed to > > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/hp2644/diag.html > > and > > ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/hp2644 > > I tried both a couple of times. The terminal enter the LOADER mode but just > hangs completely at the end. I tried different baudrates but no difference. > > The selftest STATUS line tell me 40<802 which should indicate that there > are 4k memory in the terminal. However there should be 5k since there is > one 4k board and one combined control store and 1 k RAM board. Maybe there > is a fault in the 1k SRAM? The terminal doesn't complain though. > > Regardless, the programs listed either starts at adress 30000 or 36000 > which should then be within the available space. > > The question is, should these program work for the HP2640B as well? It has > a 8008 but my guess is that the firmware is different from the 2644. What > is the joint experience regarding this? Has anyone ran these small programs > above on a HP2640B? > > The HP 2640B firmware consists of four EA 4900 ROM chips which annoyingly > are not anything like normal EPROMs. So dumping will need special > considerations. > > Has anyone dumped the HP 2640B firmware already? I didn't find it on > bitsavers. > > /Mattis > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 23:25:43 -0800 > From: CuriousMarc > To: Ethan via cctalk > Subject: Re: Cases (display) for beloved ISA cards? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I use shadow boxes from Michael's to display my boards. They have many > kinds > http://www.michaels.com/-black-shadowbox-studio-decor/ > M10322044.html?dwvar_M10322044_color=Black > Marc > > > > On Nov 16, 2017, at 8:04 AM, Ethan via cctalk > wrote: > > This message has no content. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 10:09:58 +0100 (CET) > From: Christian Corti > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Playing with HP2640B > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, CuriousMarc wrote: > > What did you do for the screen mold? Hot wire method to separate CRT > > from implosion window? Put the CRT in a hot water bath? Chip at the > > glue? Marc > > What we did on one of our 2645 terminals was the hot wire method. We then > attached the "implosion" window to the inner of the case. > > BTW is it really an implosion protection? I don't think so because since > the 60s, practically all CRTs have a so-called "integral implosion > protection" (thick glass on the front and metal band around the edge). I > think it is just an anti-glare filter glass. OTOH American CRTs may be > completely different in this aspect compared to European ones. > > Christian > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 20:10:25 +1100 > From: David Collins > To: CuriousMarc , "General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Playing with HP2640B > Message-ID: <45A317C7-55D2-49BC-892D-460322C6EDB8 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Marc, in addition to Mattis? forthcoming reply, my recent experience with > a moldy 2624A was that the hot wire method was very poor. Too hard to get > the wire in, didn?t melt the ?glue? very well, smelly. Gave up when the > wire broke. > > What worked best for me was a flat blade screwdriver that was small enough > to sit sideways in the gap between the front glass and the tube. I sliced > sections of the glue and picked them out with a hook. I also squirted in a > combination of RP7 and household cleaner but not sure either did anything > other than lubricate the surfaces - they may have helped lift the glue a > bit. > > My ?glue? was like a layer of silicon rubber which hung on for as long as > possible but I got it all off without any damage. > > I replaced the front glass and held it on with a bead of black silicon > rubber used for shower glass. I spaced it from the tube with pieces of wire > around the edges and pulled them out when the silicon dried. > > Worked well for me but keen to hear how Mattis went. > > I didn?t try the hot water soak but it would probably help. > > David Collins > > > > On 17 Nov 2017, at 6:12 pm, CuriousMarc via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > What did you do for the screen mold? Hot wire method to separate CRT > from implosion window? Put the CRT in a hot water bath? Chip at the glue? > > Marc > > > > > > > > On Nov 15, 2017, at 11:48 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I have been working on a HP 2640B terminal. It was mostly about fixing > the > > "screen mold" problem and cleaning up the liquids that had been seeping > out > > from the screen down into the bottom. > > > > The small coaxial wire that connects the 4.9152 MHz clock signal form the > > power supply (never seen a crystal controlled SMPSU before!) to the > > backplane was broken off, but after fixing that the terminal worked fine. > > Just needed some adjustment to the brightness. > > > > With the correct terminfo installed it worked quite well as a serial > > terminal to a Linux box. > > > > Then I tried the short 8008 programs that Christian Corti pointed to > > > > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/ > dev_en/hp2644/diag.html > > > > and > > > > ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/hp2644 > > > > I tried both a couple of times. The terminal enter the LOADER mode but > just > > hangs completely at the end. I tried different baudrates but no > difference. > > > > The selftest STATUS line tell me 40<802 which should indicate that there > > are 4k memory in the terminal. However there should be 5k since there is > > one 4k board and one combined control store and 1 k RAM board. Maybe > there > > is a fault in the 1k SRAM? The terminal doesn't complain though. > > > > Regardless, the programs listed either starts at adress 30000 or 36000 > > which should then be within the available space. > > > > The question is, should these program work for the HP2640B as well? It > has > > a 8008 but my guess is that the firmware is different from the 2644. What > > is the joint experience regarding this? Has anyone ran these small > programs > > above on a HP2640B? > > > > The HP 2640B firmware consists of four EA 4900 ROM chips which annoyingly > > are not anything like normal EPROMs. So dumping will need special > > considerations. > > > > Has anyone dumped the HP 2640B firmware already? I didn't find it on > > bitsavers. > > > > /Mattis > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 20:13:00 +1100 > From: David Collins > To: Christian Corti , "General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Playing with HP2640B > Message-ID: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Christian do you know the gauge of the wire you used ? And the current? > > Maybe I should try that approach again! > > David Collins > > > > On 17 Nov 2017, at 8:09 pm, Christian Corti via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, CuriousMarc wrote: > >> What did you do for the screen mold? Hot wire method to separate CRT > from implosion window? Put the CRT in a hot water bath? Chip at the glue? > Marc > > > > What we did on one of our 2645 terminals was the hot wire method. We > then attached the "implosion" window to the inner of the case. > > > > BTW is it really an implosion protection? I don't think so because since > the 60s, practically all CRTs have a so-called "integral implosion > protection" (thick glass on the front and metal band around the edge). I > think it is just an anti-glare filter glass. OTOH American CRTs may be > completely different in this aspect compared to European ones. > > > > Christian > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 11:52:47 +0100 > From: Mattis Lind > To: David Collins , "General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Playing with HP2640B > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > The screen on my HP2640 had degenerated quite far. It was only a spot in > the middle, 2 by 4 inch, that still attached the glass to the CRT. I used a > thin fish fillet knife to dig through the remaining glue. > > Before > > https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23622163_10155696765784985_ > 6518064439030378363_n.jpg?oh=44cbf7f7f00d6e25155c208124e20a38&oe=5AA7349D > > The result after: > > https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23621971_10155696757184985_ > 1959733265676657917_n.jpg?oh=36a20689c0fb5a16de7fc4df138a40e0&oe=5A9993B1 > > > Anyhow, I researched the glue a bit. The glue is, as far as I understand, > PVAc (PolyVinylAcetate, sometimes also known as PVA). PVAc is not soluble > in water. It takes quite high temperature to melt it. However PVAc is > soluble in many esters. I bought some Butylacetate. It dissolves sample > bits of glue from HP2640 quite well and rapidly. Butylacetate has quite > high boiling temperature (about 120 degrees centigrade) and thus does not > evaporate that quickly. So my idea is now to test on a 2645 screen or VR201 > screen by adding some butylacetate and seal with some thin plastic wrap > foil and let it dissolve a bit. Then use the fish fillet knife again and > repeat the process. > > /Mattis > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 13:12:29 +0100 > From: "Rik Bos" > To: "'Mattis Lind'" , "'General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > Subject: RE: Playing with HP2640B > Message-ID: <004401d35f9d$57dcf900$0796eb00$@xs4all.nl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I did it by heating the crt to about 50-60 degrees celsius and used a > putty-knife. > https://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/albums/72157689357633754 > The photos are from a Philips P2000M system but I did it the same way with > my 264X terminals and 9845's systems. > It takes about half an hour to heat and separate the screen from the crt . > > -Rik > > > The screen on my HP2640 had degenerated quite far. It was only a spot in > the > > middle, 2 by 4 inch, that still attached the glass to the CRT. I used a > thin fish fillet > > knife to dig through the remaining glue. > > > > Before > > > > https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0- > > 9/23622163_10155696765784985_6518064439030378363_n.jpg?oh=44cbf7f7f > > 00d6e25155c208124e20a38&oe=5AA7349D > > > > The result after: > > > > https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0- > > 9/23621971_10155696757184985_1959733265676657917_n.jpg?oh=36a20689 > > c0fb5a16de7fc4df138a40e0&oe=5A9993B1 > > > > > > Anyhow, I researched the glue a bit. The glue is, as far as I > understand, PVAc > > (PolyVinylAcetate, sometimes also known as PVA). PVAc is not soluble in > water. > > It takes quite high temperature to melt it. However PVAc is soluble in > many > > esters. I bought some Butylacetate. It dissolves sample bits of glue > from HP2640 > > quite well and rapidly. Butylacetate has quite high boiling temperature > (about > > 120 degrees centigrade) and thus does not evaporate that quickly. So my > idea is > > now to test on a 2645 screen or VR201 screen by adding some butylacetate > and > > seal with some thin plastic wrap foil and let it dissolve a bit. Then > use the fish > > fillet knife again and repeat the process. > > > > /Mattis > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 14:30:20 +0100 > From: Liam Proven > To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: DR-DOS > Message-ID: > mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I hope this is vintage enough. > > I've been playing around some more with my projects to create VMs / > bootable USB keys with PC DOS 7.1 and DR-DOS. > > Right now I'm focusing on DR-DOS 7.1 and the DR OpenDOS Enhancement > Project, because that's FOSS and AFAICS it can be redistributed, which > I can't with DR-DOS 7.02/7.03/7.04/7.05 or DR-DOS 8/8.1, which were > commercially licensed. > > I found a download of the last build released: > > https://archiveos.org/drdos/ > > First, it's the wrong size. VirtualBox can't mount it. VMware can. > > I truncated it to exactly 2880 sectors using the advice from ``jleg094'' > here: > > https://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39141 > > VBox mounts that. But it won't boot, nor in VMware -- it just > displays 2 dots and freezes. > > Embarrassingly late in the troubleshooting process, I've found why. > > I didn't think to check what was on the image! Foolish of me. > > I mounted it on a pre-booted VM and looked, and it's blank! There's > nothing in the image at all. > > So, I mounted the empty image file as a loop device, copied the boot > files in there and then the rest of the files in the distro archive. > > And lo, it works! It boots my VM just fine, and it's now running 7.01-08. > > All I need to do now is work out how to make the hard disk bootable, > and I'm in business. > > The DR-DOS 7 SYS command won't do it, as the files aren't named > IBMBIOS.COM and IBMSYS.COM -- they're DRBIO.SYS and DRSYS.SYS. > > I copied them to the expected names. SYS completes but the disk won't boot. > > Next step will be to try with Norton Disk Doctor. > > Anyway, if anyone wants a bootable diskette image with DR-DOS 7.01-08, > complete with FAT32 support -- apparently it can even boot from it -- > let me know. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 08:28:21 -0600 > From: Jason T > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: TI NaturalLink Disks and Docs > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Nov 16, 2017 21:16, "Jason T" wrote: > > > I have the original manuals, along with some other Professional > Computer manuals that were already on Bitsavers, free for shipping if > anyone wants them. They're not light. > > > Oops, forgot to mention location. I'm in the USA, near Chicago. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:10:21 +0100 > From: Liam Proven > To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: DR-DOS > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Might be more helpful to include downloads! > > I'm still working on VMs, but I know have bootable diskette images of > both. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time either has > been made available. > > DR-DOS 7.08 is here: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/cz8nrdv7h4sgr6o/drdep7018.zip?dl=0 > > You'll need the rest of DR-DOS 7.01 to install a complete OS but > that's widely available. > > A bootable PC DOS 7.1 diskette image is here: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/zsujtvp0gs44qcx/PCDOS71.vfd?dl=0 > > This is a VirtualBox disk image, containing the PC-DOS 7.1 files from > the IBM ServerGuide Scripting Toolkit, as made available by IBM and > described here: > > http://toogam.com/software/archive/opsys/dos/ibmpcdos/getpcd71.htm > > If you get that first, AIUI that gives you a licence to a personal-use > copy. I have not modified these files in any way except to combine the > separately-downloadable files and the boot disk image, and to remove > any non-PC DOS files from the disk image. > > Again, the rest of the OS must be taken from a copy of PC DOS 7.01. > That too is widely available. > > Feedback welcomed. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:12:08 +0100 > From: Liam Proven > To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: DR-DOS > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > It is *not* my day. I don't know how a copy-and-paste of some plain > text magically acquired attachments; that was not intentional. My > apologies. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 10:12:55 -0500 > From: william degnan > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > , Liam Proven > Subject: Re: DR-DOS > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I have a few original Dr dos disks. Versions 5, 6, 7. Would these help if > I am imaged and uploaded to my site? > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > On Nov 17, 2017 10:10 AM, "Liam Proven via cctalk" > wrote: > > > Might be more helpful to include downloads! > > > > I'm still working on VMs, but I know have bootable diskette images of > > both. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time either has > > been made available. > > > > DR-DOS 7.08 is here: > > > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/cz8nrdv7h4sgr6o/drdep7018.zip?dl=0 > > > > You'll need the rest of DR-DOS 7.01 to install a complete OS but > > that's widely available. > > > > A bootable PC DOS 7.1 diskette image is here: > > > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/zsujtvp0gs44qcx/PCDOS71.vfd?dl=0 > > > > This is a VirtualBox disk image, containing the PC-DOS 7.1 files from > > the IBM ServerGuide Scripting Toolkit, as made available by IBM and > > described here: > > > > http://toogam.com/software/archive/opsys/dos/ibmpcdos/getpcd71.htm > > > > If you get that first, AIUI that gives you a licence to a personal-use > > copy. I have not modified these files in any way except to combine the > > separately-downloadable files and the boot disk image, and to remove > > any non-PC DOS files from the disk image. > > > > Again, the rest of the OS must be taken from a copy of PC DOS 7.01. > > That too is widely available. > > > > Feedback welcomed. > > > > -- > > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 10:35:13 -0500 > From: Anders Nelson > To: CuriousMarc , "General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Cases (display) for beloved ISA cards? > Message-ID: > KnTcEJa6pg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I mounted a core memory plane in a shadowbox from Target and used a large > paperclip cut into sections as the mount hardware. Folded over and > hot-glued one end to the read of the shadowbox backing, placed the memory > plane at the desired height and folded over the other end of the paperclip > section. I also put a piece of heatshrink tubing on the paperclip end that > contacted the memory plane soas not to scratch it. > > Pictures: https://photos.app.goo.gl/dzSX21lOC34MaJxm2 > > =] > > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 2:25 AM, CuriousMarc via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I use shadow boxes from Michael's to display my boards. They have many > > kinds > > http://www.michaels.com/-black-shadowbox-studio-decor/ > > M10322044.html?dwvar_M10322044_color=Black > > Marc > > > > > > > > On Nov 16, 2017, at 8:04 AM, Ethan via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > This message has no content. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 07:44:16 -0800 (PST) > From: geneb > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: DR-DOS > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Fri, 17 Nov 2017, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > I have a few original Dr dos disks. Versions 5, 6, 7. Would these help > if > > I am imaged and uploaded to my site? > > > > Liam, if you need me to I can build a full distro of OpenDOS 7 - I've got > a machine that I can build the original sources on. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:52:08 +0100 > From: Liam Proven > To: william degnan > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: DR-DOS > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On 17 November 2017 at 16:12, william degnan wrote: > > I have a few original Dr dos disks. Versions 5, 6, 7. Would these help > if > > I am imaged and uploaded to my site? > > What I'd suggest is checking what's there first. :-) > > I have DR-DOS 6, from VetusWare. There's a copy on WinWorld but it's > some homemade disks, lacking an installer, IIRC. > > I have physical media from the early 1990s somewhere! > > I have DR-DOS 7.01/02/03/04/05/8.0/8.1 mostly from WinWorld . > > I own an original open source release of 7.01, including sources, > direct from Caldera, on CD. This is from before they changed their > mind and back-pedalled. > > I have a full boxed copy of PC DOS 7. It was distributed with > Microsoft Virtual PC, which itself is a free download now. So the VM > is out there and freely available. > > My VM is built from the free download version, with ViewMax taken from > the download of DR DOS 6. > > I have a working VM of PC DOS 7.1 but I'm still working on that. I > don't currently have a bootable USB of it -- making new bootable > volumes is non-trivial. It's not as simple as SYS or FORMAT /S, alas. > Neither works. I don't think it was meant to, TBH. Ditto the later OEM > releases of DR DOS 7.04/05 -- these were only on Disk Manager and > PartitionMagic boot disks, AFAIK. The whole OS was not updated. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 17:03:25 +0100 > From: Liam Proven > To: geneb , "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: DR-DOS > Message-ID: > w at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On 17 November 2017 at 16:44, geneb via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Liam, if you need me to I can build a full distro of OpenDOS 7 - I've > got a > > machine that I can build the original sources on. > > Thanks! > > For now, I'm trying to avoid building anything. I believe that the > build process is horribly complex -- I can find the link to a > description of the horrors somewhere. Something like 9 different > compilers are apparently used. > > So I hope not to need that, but appreciate the offer! > > What I am planning to do is combine the released boot files for PC-DOS > 7.1 and DR-DOS 7.01-8, both with FAT32 and LBA support, with the rest > of the released OSes of both, to make something as complete as > possible. > > My plan is then to add on top of that a graphical shell -- DOSSHELL > for PC DOS, ViewMax for DR DOS. > > And then add some useful shareware/freeware utilities and apps, to > make a complete useful working environment, for example able to boot > off a USB stick for a distraction-free, non-Internet-capable, writing > tool. There seems to be considerable interest in such things these > days, and of course, the problem with apps that provide > distraction-free clean-screen writing/editing environments is that you > can always just switch apps to something else. > > I have DESQview and DESQview/X running in a VM, but not on bare metal. > QEMM seems to have problems on 21st century PC hardware, which is > perhaps unsurprising. > > On one of my own Lenovo notebooks, I have a bootable partition with PC > DOS 7.01, MS Word 6, WordPerfect 6.2, Norton Utilities and some other > tools. With power management, but not networking or anything. This > works for me, but they can't be distributed; they're licensed tools. > > MS Word 5.5 is a free download, though. I was planning to add tools > such as PC Write, PC Outline, As-Easy-As, WordPerfect Editor, a Norton > Commander clone -- stuff that _is_ distributable. > > I also need to add a current DOS antivirus, unfortunately. I think > there still are some. > > The theory is to produce something functionally rich that runs in a VM > -- because then I know the hardware environment and can configure > things for it. And something much less functionally-rich that can boot > and run off a USB stick on almost any hardware. > > DR-DOS should be re-distributable. PC DOS, I fear not, at least not > fully legitimately. But my download diskette image contains nothing > that IBM itself currently does not offer for free unrestricted > download. I'm hoping that the company will tolerate that, at least. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 08:20:06 -0800 (PST) > From: geneb > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DR-DOS > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Fri, 17 Nov 2017, Liam Proven wrote: > > > On 17 November 2017 at 16:44, geneb via cctalk > wrote: > >> > >> Liam, if you need me to I can build a full distro of OpenDOS 7 - I've > got a > >> machine that I can build the original sources on. > > > > Thanks! > > > > For now, I'm trying to avoid building anything. I believe that the > > build process is horribly complex -- I can find the link to a > > description of the horrors somewhere. Something like 9 different > > compilers are apparently used. > > > If you've got the same MRS disc that Roger sent me, you've got the whole > build environment already. You can kick it off with a single command. > The only caveat is that you need to boot into OpenDOS/DR-DOS in order to > get enough free lower RAM to run the build process. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 24 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 09:04:07 -0800 > From: Eric Schlaepfer > To: Eric Smith > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Check your email. How can you tell if it uses a 600 RPM mechanism or not? > > On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Hi Eric, > > > > It's not urgent, but when you have a chance, could you dump the 9122C > > ROM(s) and take high resolution photos of the controller board? > > > > Since it does HD, I suspect it probably does not use a 600 RPM mechanism. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Best regards, > > Eric > > > > > > On Nov 15, 2017 17:45, "Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid > out > >> a > >> board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be > >> cheaper > >> for me to buy that instead. > >> > >> I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't > use > >> it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300. > >> > >> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85? > >> > > > >> > > >> > I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :) > >> > > >> > I?ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) > >> > which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the > >> Extended > >> > Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let > my > >> A > >> > model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the > >> Amigo or > >> > SS-80 protocols. > >> > > >> > I?d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time > >> finding > >> > 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don?t > talk, > >> so > >> > that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5? DD > >> > media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) > other > >> > 3.5? HPIB floppy drives. > >> > > >> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 25 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 17:24:00 +0000 > From: Peter Allan > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Manchester University Joint System in the 1970s > Message-ID: > MkXhQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I was a student at Manchester University from 1974 to 1980. During that > time I used the University of Manchester Regional Computer Centre (UMRCC) > computer system. The so-called Joint System consisted of a CDC 7600 with an > ICL 1906A front end. We used to submit card decks via a Systime (a PDP-11 > clone, I believe) that functioned as a remote job entry service. > > I am trying to find out information about the structure of those card decks > (mine were used for shopping lists years ago), and in particular, what the > first card in the deck was that routed the job to the correct computer. > > I have found information about JOB cards for both ICL computers running > George 3 and for the CDC 7600 running SCOPE 2.1 (which is what the > computers ran), but I believe that neither of these gives the full story > about what we used on the Joint System. > > Does anyone who used this system, or similar ones in the UK, recall > anything relevant? > > If you have suggestions about where else to post this query, I would be > grateful for that too. > > Cheers > > Peter Allan > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 26 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 13:26:05 -0400 > From: Paul Berger > To: Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk > Subject: Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive > Message-ID: <71be6676-c829-33e3-4e48-b3ca4eedcefc at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > I just checked my 9122C I happen to have open and the interval between > index pulses is 199.66mS? which would be 300 RPM, which is good news for > me I can now proceed with adapting a more common 1.44 drive to replace > my broken one. > > Paul. > > > On 2017-11-17 1:04 PM, Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk wrote: > > Check your email. How can you tell if it uses a 600 RPM mechanism or not? > > > > On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > >> Hi Eric, > >> > >> It's not urgent, but when you have a chance, could you dump the 9122C > >> ROM(s) and take high resolution photos of the controller board? > >> > >> Since it does HD, I suspect it probably does not use a 600 RPM > mechanism. > >> > >> Thanks! > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Eric > >> > >> > >> On Nov 15, 2017 17:45, "Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid > out > >>> a > >>> board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be > >>> cheaper > >>> for me to buy that instead. > >>> > >>> I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't > use > >>> it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300. > >>> > >>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk < > >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk < > >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85? > >>>>> > >>>> I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :) > >>>> > >>>> I?ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) > >>>> which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the > >>> Extended > >>>> Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let > my > >>> A > >>>> model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the > >>> Amigo or > >>>> SS-80 protocols. > >>>> > >>>> I?d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time > >>> finding > >>>> 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don?t > talk, > >>> so > >>>> that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5? DD > >>>> media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) > other > >>>> 3.5? HPIB floppy drives. > >>>> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 27 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 18:31:07 +0100 (CET) > From: Christian Corti > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Playing with HP2640B > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Fri, 17 Nov 2017, David Collins wrote: > > Christian do you know the gauge of the wire you used ? And the current? > > It was a wire for cutting polystyrene blocks. The current was a fews > amperes, I think, driven off a bench power supply. > > Christian > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 28 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 09:57:36 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Manchester University Joint System in the 1970s > Message-ID: <0ba9f9e5-3b8d-cbbb-5d91-e1a9b9f10e48 at sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > On 11/17/2017 09:24 AM, Peter Allan via cctalk wrote: > > I was a student at Manchester University from 1974 to 1980. During that > > time I used the University of Manchester Regional Computer Centre (UMRCC) > > computer system. The so-called Joint System consisted of a CDC 7600 with > an > > ICL 1906A front end. We used to submit card decks via a Systime (a PDP-11 > > clone, I believe) that functioned as a remote job entry service. > > > > I am trying to find out information about the structure of those card > decks > > (mine were used for shopping lists years ago), and in particular, what > the > > first card in the deck was that routed the job to the correct computer. > > I can't help you with your specific case, other than to mention that > Purdue University for a time used a 6500 front-ended by a couple of IBM > 7094s (IIRC, and it's been a long time--could have been 7090s), that > might give you a clue. The VIM community wasn't large. > > >From my own experience with 6000s, the SCOPE 1BJ overlay was heavily > modified by various sites. I imagine that the corresponding code in > the SCOPE 2.x JS code was similarly tweaked. > > --Chuck > > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 38, Issue 16 > ************************************** > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 18:27:57 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 01:27:57 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: <20171117180252.GA29310@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On 20 November 2017 at 18:57, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > The archive.org snapshots may have had the blank images, but they also seem > to have grabbed the archived downloads as well. > > This is an arbitrary link to the 3/26/2016 snapshot. There are quite a few > others, and I didn't try anything yet to see if the data is good or not. > > https://web.archive.org/web/20160326184121/http://www.drdosprojects.de/index.cgi/download.htm Aha! Excellent! Since I found the latest version, I stopped looking. That was silly of me. That's very helpful -- thanks, Jim! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 18:47:45 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 16:47:45 -0800 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: References: <1e0fd332-1be5-10d6-fb26-ce7bc90a3582@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 20, 2017 7:41 AM, "Tapley, Mark via cctalk" wrote: Catching up late, sorry if this is an old question, but what did the Digital Group computers use? My recollection is that they offered cards with 6800, 6502, 8080, and Z-80 CPUs on the same bus, and that part of the system seemed to work reasonably well. The Digital Group had two separate buses, a memory bys and an I/O bus, as well as two other slot types incompatible with either bus, for a CPU card and a TVC (video and cassette) card. They didn't support interrupts or DMA on any bus. If you wanted to use an interrupt, you had to wire it over the top. Doc Suding said that he didn't put interrupts on the bus because (paraphrasing) they are complicated and you don't need them. As you say, they did support various CPUs, but not more than one in a system. I wouldn't recommend that anyone consider The Digital Group as an example of good bus design. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 20 19:50:39 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 20:50:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus Message-ID: <20171121015039.68EF818C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Charles Anthony > a hybrid PDP-11 (16 bits) / PDP-15 (18 bits) on a shared bus (UNIBUS?) That's a UNICHANNEL-15: it allowed devices on the -11 to do DMA directly into the PDP-15's memory through the MX15-B Memory Multiplexer. Odd factoid: this UNIBUS could run in 18-bit mode (!!), where the UNIBUS' two parity lines were recycled into 2 extra data lines. Some DMA interfaces (e.g. the RK11) could support this; in this particular case, it allowed the PDP-15 to use RK05 drives. Noel From chd at chdickman.com Mon Nov 20 20:40:30 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 21:40:30 -0500 Subject: Sun 3/50 processor board and unknown processor Message-ID: I was given two boards that were "spares for a PDP-11/40." The business that I got my PDP-11/40 from was cleaning out storage and found these two boards and gave them to me. It looks like board 2 is for a Sun 3/50 workstation. Board 1 is some kind of micro-programmed processor based on AM29331 and AM29331. There are also some Analog Devices DSPs. AM29000 based processor with Analog Device DSPs http://www.chdickman.com/board1.jpg Sun 3/50 processor http://www.chdickman.com/board2.jpg Can anyone identify them? -chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Nov 20 21:42:28 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 19:42:28 -0800 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: <20171117180252.GA29310@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On 11/20/2017 4:27 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 20 November 2017 at 18:57, jim stephens via cctalk > wrote: >> The archive.org snapshots may have had the blank images, but they also seem >> to have grabbed the archived downloads as well. >> >> This is an arbitrary link to the 3/26/2016 snapshot. There are quite a few >> others, and I didn't try anything yet to see if the data is good or not. >> >> https://web.archive.org/web/20160326184121/http://www.drdosprojects.de/index.cgi/download.htm > Aha! Excellent! > > Since I found the latest version, I stopped looking. That was silly of > me. That's very helpful -- thanks, Jim! > Welcome! I am trying to figure out how to send you the files I got, in case the script I sent doesn't scrape them.? Now it's more than a need to send it and a battle of wills to send a binary that Google keeps blocking. I was up odd hours and gave up a bit ago, I suspect you already used the script or your own means to get their files.? But you may get my obfuscated binary anyway. Thanks for figuring this out, will be interesting to look at it. thanks Jim From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 21:54:37 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 21:54:37 -0600 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: <20171117180252.GA29310@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20171121035437.GA3990@gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 11/20/2017 4:27 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 20 November 2017 at 18:57, jim stephens via cctalk > > wrote: > > > The archive.org snapshots may have had the blank images, but they also seem > > > to have grabbed the archived downloads as well. > > > > > > This is an arbitrary link to the 3/26/2016 snapshot. There are quite a few > > > others, and I didn't try anything yet to see if the data is good or not. > > > > > > https://web.archive.org/web/20160326184121/http://www.drdosprojects.de/index.cgi/download.htm > > Aha! Excellent! > > > > Since I found the latest version, I stopped looking. That was silly of > > me. That's very helpful -- thanks, Jim! > > > Welcome! > I am trying to figure out how to send you the files I got, in case the > script I sent doesn't scrape them.? Now it's more than a need to send it and > a battle of wills to send a binary that Google keeps blocking. Where is this script? > > I was up odd hours and gave up a bit ago, I suspect you already used the > script or your own means to get their files.? But you may get my obfuscated > binary anyway. > > Thanks for figuring this out, will be interesting to look at it. > thanks > Jim -- Eric Christopherson From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 21 00:34:55 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 22:34:55 -0800 Subject: Idle question: Color of tape coatings Message-ID: <44ada86c-f671-2ca3-b6fe-dcb852981c5c@sydex.com> While working on some old (again!) half-inch tapes, I note that some of the very old ones have an oxide coating about the color of milk chocolate. Newer ones are anywhere from dark chocolate to black. Reel construction is another aspect. The really old ones tend to be all clear plastic, including the hub area. Newer ones have either a black plastic reinforcement to the hub or employ an aluminum sleeve. In most cases, the oldest of these is from around 1964, but probably older than that, as the only clues I have are dates placed by the tape librarian when a tape is put back into the pool or a label indicating when the tape was last recertified. Was there a date after which *all* half-inch tape became the dark brown to nearly black in color? --Chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 00:51:44 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 07:51:44 +0100 Subject: Sun 3/50 processor board and unknown processor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > It looks like board 2 is for a Sun 3/50 workstation. Board 1 is some > kind of micro-programmed processor based on AM29331 and AM29331. There > are also some Analog Devices DSPs. > > AM29000 based processor with Analog Device DSPs > http://www.chdickman.com/board1.jpg > > Sun 3/50 processor > http://www.chdickman.com/board2.jpg I think this is a 3/60 processor. Not 3/50. > > Can anyone identify them? > > -chuck > From radioengr at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 01:45:01 2017 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 00:45:01 -0700 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: <20171121015039.68EF818C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171121015039.68EF818C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <173577bc-6e03-4b60-f3a0-182a202b1c74@gmail.com> On 11/20/2017 6:50 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Charles Anthony > > > a hybrid PDP-11 (16 bits) / PDP-15 (18 bits) on a shared bus (UNIBUS?) > > That's a UNICHANNEL-15: it allowed devices on the -11 to do DMA directly into > the PDP-15's memory through the MX15-B Memory Multiplexer. > > Odd factoid: this UNIBUS could run in 18-bit mode (!!), where the UNIBUS' two > parity lines were recycled into 2 extra data lines. Some DMA interfaces (e.g. > the RK11) could support this; in this particular case, it allowed the PDP-15 > to use RK05 drives. > > Noel More than just that - The DEC KS10 (PDP-10) used the UNIBUS and Massbus peripherals (RP06 disk, etc) in 18-bit mode. There was a special version of the RH11 (RH11C?) that had extra buffering and could be configured in "Fast Transfer Mode" where it used a pair of 18-bit UNIBUS transfers to do 36-bit DMA. I've never decided if this was really clever engineering, or just 'messed up' ... I guess it saved having 36-bit peripherals and peripheral buses. Rob. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 20 18:21:50 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 16:21:50 -0800 Subject: Sync on Green RGB video In-Reply-To: <871skvl1us.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <9a929343-e7b2-9156-5a1a-520bed77319e@comcast.net> <871skvl1us.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On 11/18/2017 01:21 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctech wrote: > You might be surprised how many LCD monitors support SoG. I have several > iiyama LCD panels which work fine with a 3100. > All of my NEC Multisync LCD ones do--some even have 5 BNC connectors for video input. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 19:48:39 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 20:48:39 -0500 Subject: Sync on Green RGB video In-Reply-To: <871skvl1us.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <9a929343-e7b2-9156-5a1a-520bed77319e@comcast.net> <871skvl1us.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: I have a 3100 Vasstation but I have not used it yet.. I have only used my MicroVAX 3100. On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 4:21 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > You might be surprised how many LCD monitors support SoG. I have several > iiyama LCD panels which work fine with a 3100. > > Aaron. > > > Douglas Taylor via cctech writes: > > > I have a couple of vaxes that output 'unique' video, Alpha 3000 300, > > Alpha 3000 400, Vax 4000 VLC, and Vax Station 3100 M76. > > > > The Alpha and VLC each have a 3W3 type of connector and the 3100 has a > > 15 pin DEC designed connector. > > > > What does it take to connect these to inexpensive, modern VGA light > > weight monitors? > > > > Doug > From haskins.sophie at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 20:14:27 2017 From: haskins.sophie at gmail.com (Sophie Haskins) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 21:14:27 -0500 Subject: Sync on Green RGB video In-Reply-To: References: <9a929343-e7b2-9156-5a1a-520bed77319e@comcast.net> <871skvl1us.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: I've had v good luck w/ old video inputs & the ASUS PB78Q - I've gotten video from: * DEC VAXstation 4000 VLC (3W3 -> 3 BNC -> VGA) * DEC 3000 AXP 300 (3W3 -> 3 BNC -> VGA) * Sun SPARCstation (13W3 -> VGA) * SGI Indy (13W3 -> VGA) * NeXTstation mono (DB19 -> VGA w/ a cable off ebay) Of these I'm definitely sure the NeXTstation, and the Indy use sync-on-green - the others might be too? But at the least, that monitor is compatible w/ Sync-on-green (and seems to be able to reliably deal with 3W3 -> 3 BNC -> VGA even when the BNC -> VGA cable is actually hoping for the standard 5 BNC Sophie On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 8:48 PM, william degnan via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have a 3100 Vasstation but I have not used it yet.. I have only used my > MicroVAX 3100. > > On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 4:21 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > You might be surprised how many LCD monitors support SoG. I have several > > iiyama LCD panels which work fine with a 3100. > > > > Aaron. > > > > > > Douglas Taylor via cctech writes: > > > > > I have a couple of vaxes that output 'unique' video, Alpha 3000 300, > > > Alpha 3000 400, Vax 4000 VLC, and Vax Station 3100 M76. > > > > > > The Alpha and VLC each have a 3W3 type of connector and the 3100 has a > > > 15 pin DEC designed connector. > > > > > > What does it take to connect these to inexpensive, modern VGA light > > > weight monitors? > > > > > > Doug > > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Nov 21 03:58:50 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 10:58:50 +0100 (CET) Subject: Signetics TWIN Message-ID: Hi, do hardware manuals for the TWIN exist? And does any other TWIN system exist? It seems it is a completely forgotten and lost development system. Christian From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 21 07:44:30 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 08:44:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: LA30 parts and question Message-ID: <20171121134430.4BE3518C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > Overall, I have been pretty amazed by the sheer number of machined > parts, castings, high quality bearings, etc. within this beast. Lots of > stainless steel throughout. Sure wouldn't find anything built this way > these days! What a tank. That's DEC for you - quality engineering (mostly :-). Reminds me of this Porsche/Lotus story: http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/nontech/chapman.html Alas, that kind of engineering turned into a liability when DEC tried to compete in the 'new world' of personal computers... :-( Noel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 21 09:04:26 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 10:04:26 -0500 Subject: LA30 parts and question In-Reply-To: <2B34A719-AEC8-4D35-B236-FE328CD3A3F6@fritzm.org> References: <0cf1fc8a-6aae-a877-2268-b036e962920d@fritzm.org> <2B34A719-AEC8-4D35-B236-FE328CD3A3F6@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <1cc0f140-1650-e0c4-7c47-5969ec8fdff9@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-11-19 6:03 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > ... > Overall, I have been pretty amazed by the sheer number of machined parts, castings, high quality bearings, etc. within this beast. Lots of stainless steel throughout. Sure wouldn?t find anything built this way these days! I can only assume you're unaware of the Juicero. --T What a tank. > > cheers, > --FritzM. > > > > From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Tue Nov 21 06:38:10 2017 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 13:38:10 +0100 Subject: Sun 3/50 processor board and unknown processor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/21/17, 3:40 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Charles Dickman via cctalk" wrote: >It looks like board 2 is for a Sun 3/50 workstation. Board 1 is some >kind of micro-programmed processor based on AM29331 and AM29331. There >are also some Analog Devices DSPs. > >AM29000 based processor with Analog Device DSPs >http://www.chdickman.com/board1.jpg In the bottom right hand corner, above ?COMPONENT SIDE?, there is some lettering that seems to read ?COMPUTER ? BEDFORD MA?. Given the DSP?s, the MITRE corporation comes to mind. This might have been part of some military or civil aviation signal processing system. Camiel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Nov 21 09:51:55 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 15:51:55 +0000 Subject: Xerox 820 Message-ID: Any interest in a Xerox 820 board that never had it's construction completed? It's amazing the stuff I find digging through my boxes of junk. bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 10:36:14 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 11:36:14 -0500 Subject: PC-Letter "WUI" War over User Interface 1-1988 Message-ID: Here is an interesting article from early 1988 (probably written in min 1987) that compares and contrasts GUIs of the day. Interesting that they do not mention OS/2 by name, by this point it would have been available, given I used it in Jan 1987 when I was working at IBM. Also the XEROX interface was not yet dead as the author makes it seem. If anyone used Page Maker on a 1987/88 Xerox machine and compared that with "Windows OS/2" machine trying to run the Page Maker on a PS/2 80 you'd probably agree. Basically I am unsure what planet the author was from, but you can decide for yourself. Talks a little about HP's GUI product, Sun/AT&T, Apple Finder, etc. Mentions NeXT is coming, Commodore is dead, ... opinionated. http://vintagecomputer.net/cisc367/PC-Letter_19880118.pdf Bill From chd at chdickman.com Tue Nov 21 11:04:34 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 12:04:34 -0500 Subject: Powering Sun 3/60 without a chassis was Re: Sun 3/50 processor board and unknown processor Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 1:51 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > I think this is a 3/60 processor. Not 3/50. I said 3/50 because that is what the silkscreen says. I found some picture online and the 3/50 was a different layout. It sure looks like a 3/60 Looking at some online schematics it looks like the P3 96 pin DIN connector may only be for power. Is it possible to power this thing through that connector without a proper chassis? I know nothing about Sun hardware. -chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 11:29:19 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 09:29:19 -0800 Subject: Powering Sun 3/60 without a chassis was Re: Sun 3/50 processor board and unknown processor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36d7abb0-9427-c223-1020-5c5f683ae36e@gmail.com> On 11/21/2017 9:04 AM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 1:51 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > >> I think this is a 3/60 processor. Not 3/50. > I said 3/50 because that is what the silkscreen says. I found some > picture online and the 3/50 was a different layout. It sure looks like > a 3/60 The silkscreen reads "3/60" as clear as day... > > Looking at some online schematics it looks like the P3 96 pin DIN > connector may only be for power. Is it possible to power this thing > through that connector without a proper chassis? Don't see why not.? You'll need to rig up the proper connection with some eurocard connectors, and provide a decent supply (I can't find any solid info, but I'd wager between 5 and 10A for +5v). - Josh > > I know nothing about Sun hardware. > > -chuck > From ams at gnu.org Tue Nov 21 12:02:38 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 13:02:38 -0500 Subject: Powering Sun 3/60 without a chassis was Re: Sun 3/50 processor board and unknown processor In-Reply-To: (message from Charles Dickman via cctalk on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 12:04:34 -0500) References: Message-ID: > I think this is a 3/60 processor. Not 3/50. I said 3/50 because that is what the silkscreen says. The silkscreen clearly says 3/60, you have a clear serial with a 5 right beside it to compare and any other marked component. I know nothing about Sun hardware. But an expert on Some Online schematics? :-) From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Nov 21 12:16:09 2017 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 19:16:09 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: <20171117180252.GA29310@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20171121181608.GA22652@tau1.ceti.pl> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 03:35:07PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > On 17 November 2017 at 19:02, Tomasz Rola wrote: > > > > Please excuse me if my remark is unnecessary, but if I read you right, > > you have: > > [...] > > "Things" can escape from VMs. I have plenty of Xen warnings and bug > > descriptions in my old mailboxes, chances are there will be more. > > It's possible. I'm not working on Windows systems, so I don't have > virus scanners in place. > > >> All I need to do now is work out how to make the hard disk bootable, > >> and I'm in business. > > > > Boot some other OS, (I am partial to GRML Linux, well packed with > > rescue stuff and more - https://grml.org/ ); + fdisk, mark bootable? > > Er, yes. Thanks. I _do_ know about managing DOS hard disks, thanks. :-) Ah. Please forgive me for making remote allusions :-) As of "things" mentioned above, my current understanding is, those may be both active code (virri, worrmms etc), as well as Darth Vader's hand reaching out from the inside of VM and manipulating bits of memory on hosting machine. Chances are, I worry too much about this, but I suppose Pentium does not make a good platform for running VMs, only a cheap one (although it used to look like a decent one, but today it is only cheap). My current understanding is, emulators without JIT should be more decent. They sometimes enable one to have a peek into running "machine", which might be nice thing to have, too. And speedwise, they should be much closer to the original ;-P [...] > FreeDOS is fine if you like it. For me, it is just a little too unlike > the "real thing" for comfort. And as I'm interested in playing with > some fairly extreme DOS stuff -- multitaskers (DESQview, etc.) and so > on -- I want the highest level of compatibility I can achieve. Well, owing to lack of time, I am so far from creating anything like "my own" that any actual problem with more interesting stuff just does not come into my mind (and I have close to zero knowledge about Desqview, which I regret because it looks great on those pictures out there). Most probably I will go with some frankensteinish solution involving Dosemu or Dosbox, whichever could run assembler without a flop, Emacs on native side for editing, thus hybrid multitasking. FreeDOS, for me, is the advanced way to do it, but as the developers keep improving it (prepackaged utils and stuff), so I might actually go for it - laziness pays. But the main reason for me to go there would be to play with assembler, rather than with other software. There are also MenuetOS and KolibriOS, which look like nice "couldbe" multiplexers for Dosbox, but I am not sure (would have to find time to research) if there is any possibility to run DOS programs under their control (and I could not find explicit answer in few minutes). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Tue Nov 21 13:04:16 2017 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 20:04:16 +0100 Subject: Almost PDP 11/05 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58eaeb00-6b45-ac64-102d-4cf8792141f0@greenmail.ch> On 21.11.2017 19:25, william degnan via cctech wrote: > "DEC PDP-11 Digital BA11-KE Mounting Box" > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-Digital-BA11-KE-Mounting-Box/28265372079 > > granted "all you need are the cards and the front panel" reminds me of the Guess who has all the boards, but no backplane & power supply....... Jos, that is.... From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 13:15:00 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 20:15:00 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: <20171121181608.GA22652@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20171117180252.GA29310@tau1.ceti.pl> <20171121181608.GA22652@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On 21 November 2017 at 19:16, Tomasz Rola wrote: > > As of "things" mentioned above, my current understanding is, those may > be both active code (virri, worrmms etc), as well as Darth Vader's > hand reaching out from the inside of VM and manipulating bits of > memory on hosting machine. Chances are, I worry too much about this, > but I suppose Pentium does not make a good platform for running VMs, > only a cheap one (although it used to look like a decent one, but > today it is only cheap). A file-based virus could escape _if_ the VM had access to the host filesystem. But mine don't, partly because it's moderately hard, partly because it takes a _ton_ of RAM in DOS terms. I should devote more effort to it but it's not massively useful to me so I've not. But it can't propagate if the host OS can't run DOS binaries. > My current understanding is, emulators without JIT should be more > decent. They sometimes enable one to have a peek into running > "machine", which might be nice thing to have, too. And speedwise, they > should be much closer to the original ;-P I am trying to avoid emulators. This is the original native OS of x86 PC-compatible hardware. I want it to run on the metal. > Well, owing to lack of time, I am so far from creating anything like > "my own" that any actual problem with more interesting stuff just does > not come into my mind (and I have close to zero knowledge about > Desqview, which I regret because it looks great on those pictures out > there). Most probably I will go with some frankensteinish solution > involving Dosemu or Dosbox, DOSbox is an emulator, so I've not looked at it. Ditto Bochs. DOSemu works but it's not very stable. It's easy to crash it and lose your session. I don't think there's much chance of getting DESQview or anything ambitious like that running on it. > whichever could run assembler without a > flop, I don't understand that bit. > Emacs on native side for editing, Euw. ;-) > thus hybrid > multitasking. Well, yes, with host-based multitasking, you don't need in-VM multitasking. But on the metal, it could potentially be useful. Mostly, though, it's a toy and a tech demo. > FreeDOS, for me, is the advanced way to do it, but as > the developers keep improving it (prepackaged utils and stuff), so I > might actually go for it - laziness pays. As you prefer. It has a _very_ slow release cycle, though. > But the main reason for me > to go there would be to play with assembler, rather than with other > software. DOS assembler can be run on almost anything. MS-DOS, PC DOS, DR-DOS, FreeDOS, whatever. > There are also MenuetOS and KolibriOS, which look like nice "couldbe" > multiplexers for Dosbox, but I am not sure (would have to find time to > research) if there is any possibility to run DOS programs under their > control (and I could not find explicit answer in few minutes). They're not DOS-compatible, AFAIK. > > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Tue Nov 21 13:18:15 2017 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 20:18:15 +0100 Subject: Interest in copies of the TEK 4052/4054 diagnostic ROM pack ? Message-ID: Looking into fabricating a few (functional-only) copies of the Tektronix diagnostis rom pack Seems quite a few people have non-functional units... Any interest out there ? Jos From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 13:19:38 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 13:19:38 -0600 Subject: Slightly OT: Computer internals book recommendations In-Reply-To: <388d64d1-a75b-a14b-deae-3d004ef52ca9@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20171118235710.GA79431@gmail.com> <7B9D09B1-5EE1-4F8A-A519-B7B1609FC60F@kerberos.davies.net.au> <388d64d1-a75b-a14b-deae-3d004ef52ca9@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Huw Davies wrote: > Sounds like either > > Computer Architecture: A Quantitative Approach by David Patterson and John > Hennessy > > Computer Organization and Design: the Hardware/Software Interface by David > Patterson and John Hennessy > > I see there?s a MIPS edition of the second book. My copy of the second book > has Hennessy as the first author. Thanks. I had the Hennessy/Patterson books on my radar but wasn't sure they would meet the criteria (haven't been able to find previews of them). Sophie Haskins wrote: > I want to say that earlier editions of ?Computer Systems: A Programmers > Perspective? had a bunch of discussions of buses etc in addition to > assembly, compilers, linking, etc. but the edition I have explicitly calls > out that they felt like it wasn?t important to have chapters on anymore :( Sophie also wrote: > I have the second edition (there appears to now be a third out!) but > re-reading the preface and "what's changed since the first edition" doesn't > seem to say what I remembered re: buses (namely, it says nothing at all). > It is possibly my professors were referring to a much earlier > course/textbook (or that I dreamed the whole thing!). CS: APP is still a > pretty useful book, but...not on this topic, it would seem. > > (in the second edition, the only reference to buses is on a page where they > note that as of its publishing, buses are much more complicated and much > less exposed to programmers than they once were) I have an inside scoop that a certain library is about to get rid of their 2003 printing (which is apparently 1st edition); I've had my eye on it for a while. It doesn't really go into any detail on buses, but still looks really useful. -- Eric Christopherson From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 13:28:46 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 14:28:46 -0500 Subject: Almost PDP 11/05 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <58eaeb00-6b45-ac64-102d-4cf8792141f0@greenmail.ch> References: <58eaeb00-6b45-ac64-102d-4cf8792141f0@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: I agree with Josh upon closer inspection that the backplane may not be for an 11/05 I'd have to look it up. If so, you'd need a CPU backplane too. The power supply is part of the BA11-KE, at least you'd have that. On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 2:04 PM, jos via cctalk wrote: > On 21.11.2017 19:25, william degnan via cctech wrote: > >> "DEC PDP-11 Digital BA11-KE Mounting Box" >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-Digital-BA11-KE-Mounting >> -Box/28265372079 >> >> granted "all you need are the cards and the front panel" reminds me of the >> > > Guess who has all the boards, but no backplane & power supply....... > > Jos, that is.... > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 21 13:29:56 2017 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 19:29:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Interest in copies of the TEK 4052/4054 diagnostic ROM pack ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1257902026.440580.1511292596491@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, November 21, 2017 11:18 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: Looking into fabricating a few (functional-only) copies of the Tektronix diagnostis rom pack Seems quite a few people have non-functional units... Any interest out there ? Jos Yes! I'm very interested in a few units. Bob From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Nov 21 14:56:54 2017 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 21:56:54 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: <20171117180252.GA29310@tau1.ceti.pl> <20171121181608.GA22652@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20171121205654.GB22652@tau1.ceti.pl> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 08:15:00PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > On 21 November 2017 at 19:16, Tomasz Rola wrote: > > > > As of "things" mentioned above, my current understanding is, those may > > be both active code (virri, worrmms etc), as well as Darth Vader's > > hand reaching out from the inside of VM and manipulating bits of > > memory on hosting machine. Chances are, I worry too much about this, > > but I suppose Pentium does not make a good platform for running VMs, > > only a cheap one (although it used to look like a decent one, but > > today it is only cheap). > > A file-based virus could escape _if_ the VM had access to the host > filesystem. But mine don't, partly because it's moderately hard, > partly because it takes a _ton_ of RAM in DOS terms. > > I should devote more effort to it but it's not massively useful to me > so I've not. > > But it can't propagate if the host OS can't run DOS binaries. Aw, not this. This: [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Row_hammer ] Row hammer (also written as rowhammer) is an unintended side effect in dynamic random-access memory (DRAM) that causes memory cells to leak their charges and interact electrically between themselves, possibly altering the contents of nearby memory rows that were not addressed in the original memory access. This circumvention of the isolation between DRAM memory cells results from the high cell density in modern DRAM, and can be triggered by specially crafted memory access patterns that rapidly activate the same memory rows numerous times.[1][2][3] The row hammer effect has been used in some privilege escalation computer security exploits.[2][4][5] Different hardware-based techniques exist to prevent the row hammer effect from occurring, including required support in some processors and types of DRAM memory modules. (...) On March 9, 2015, Google's Project Zero revealed two working privilege escalation exploits based on the row hammer effect, establishing its exploitable nature on the x86-64 architecture. One of the revealed exploits targets the Google Native Client (NaCl) mechanism for running a limited subset of x86-64 machine instructions within a sandbox,[15]:27 exploiting the row hammer effect to escape from the sandbox and gain the ability to issue system calls directly. and [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_machine_escape ] In computer security, virtual machine escape is the process of breaking out of a virtual machine and interacting with the host operating system.[1] A virtual machine is a "completely isolated guest operating system installation within a normal host operating system".[2] In 2008, a vulnerability (CVE-2008-0923) in VMware discovered by Core Security Technologies made VM escape possible on VMWare Workstation 6.0.2 and 5.5.4.[3][4] A fully working exploit labeled Cloudburst was developed by Immunity Inc. for Immunity CANVAS (commercial penetration testing tool). And even more interestingly, this (is your PC a hypervisor dreaming that he is a PC or a real PC?): [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperjacking ] Hyperjacking is an attack in which a hacker takes malicious control over the hypervisor that creates the virtual environment within a virtual machine (VM) host.[1] The point of the attack is to target the operating system that is below that of the virtual machines so that the attacker's program can run and the applications on the VMs above it will be completely oblivious to its presence. And this has truly amused me: [ http://www.zdnet.com/article/minix-intels-hidden-in-chip-operating-system/ ] Buried deep inside your computer's Intel chip is the MINIX operating system and a software stack, which includes networking and a web server. It's slow, hard to get at, and insecure as insecure can be. I have no idea how practical are those attacks (please bear in mind, MINIX inside your CPU is a feature, not a... uhm) in real life, but it does not matter as much as the fact they have been demonstrated (if I am to believe the net), and are going to be easier and easier to perform as time goes by. In some cases, it does not matter what is your machine host OS vs guest OS, but if guest OS had been carefully crafted with code meant to escape to outside (or influence it). Like, a floppy of DRDOS dropped online in 2016. Oh, a bit unrelated but I have read recently that in some (all?) cases it is possible to get hold of this MINIX stuff (and some more) by plugging in special USB dongle... This is nothing important compared to the above, but quite funny, so I included it here. Basically, the idea of the above snippets is, software running in isolated sandbox cannot be counted on staying isolated there. [...] > > whichever could run assembler without a > > flop, > > I don't understand that bit. "Flop", because my very old experience with those emulators (Dosemu, Dosbox) was such that sometimes, some software could flop, as in "To fall, sink, or throw one's self, heavily, clumsily, and unexpectedly on the ground." (Webster) But I think this has been improved and I do not have to worry. > > Emacs on native side for editing, > > Euw. ;-) Believe me, the longer it is being used, the better it seems :-). [...] > > There are also MenuetOS and KolibriOS, which look like nice "couldbe" > > multiplexers for Dosbox, but I am not sure (would have to find time to > > research) if there is any possibility to run DOS programs under their > > control (and I could not find explicit answer in few minutes). > > They're not DOS-compatible, AFAIK. Ouch. Thanks for letting me know, it will save me some useless effort. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 15:33:35 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 15:33:35 -0600 Subject: PC-Letter "WUI" War over User Interface 1-1988 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 10:36 AM, william degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Here is an interesting article from early 1988 (probably written in min > 1987) that compares and contrasts GUIs of the day. Interesting that they > do not mention OS/2 by name, by this point it would have been available, > given I used it in Jan 1987 when I was working at IBM. Also the XEROX > interface was not yet dead as the author makes it seem. If anyone used > Page Maker on a 1987/88 Xerox machine and compared that with "Windows OS/2" > machine trying to run the Page Maker on a PS/2 80 you'd probably agree. > > Basically I am unsure what planet the author was from, but you can decide > for yourself. Talks a little about HP's GUI product, Sun/AT&T, Apple > Finder, etc. Mentions NeXT is coming, Commodore is dead, ... opinionated. > > http://vintagecomputer.net/cisc367/PC-Letter_19880118.pdf > > Bill > Looks interesting. The title and the mention of OS/2* remind me of a book I once came across, called "Windows vs. OS/2: The GUI-OOUI war" : https://www.amazon.com/Windows-Vs-OS-Gui-Ooui-Interfaces/dp/0442017502 ** * I see OS/2 1.1 is mentioned in the article, but I haven't read it yet to see how it deals with it. ** It would have been better for the the subtitle to sound like "the ooey-gooey war", but alas. -- Eric Christopherson From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 12:25:36 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 13:25:36 -0500 Subject: Almost PDP 11/05 on Ebay Message-ID: This looks to me like the power supply and backplane of a PDP 11/05, looks to be in nice shape. Surprised no one grabbed this yet, esp someone with an 11/05 that has issues with power supply. Someone might have the missing parts. "DEC PDP-11 Digital BA11-KE Mounting Box" https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-Digital-BA11-KE-Mounting-Box/28265372079 granted "all you need are the cards and the front panel" reminds me of the steve martin routine. "It's easy to be a millionaire, first get a million dollars and then ...." Compare with http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=622 b From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 12:58:56 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 13:58:56 -0500 Subject: Almost PDP 11/05 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 1:52 PM, Josh Dersch via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 10:25 AM, william degnan via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > This looks to me like the power supply and backplane of a PDP 11/05, > looks > > to be in nice shape. Surprised no one grabbed this yet, esp someone with > > an 11/05 that has issues with power supply. Someone might have the > missing > > parts. > > > > "DEC PDP-11 Digital BA11-KE Mounting Box" > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-Digital-BA11-KE- > > Mounting-Box/28265372079 > > > > It looks to me like a standard Unibus expansion chassis (a BA11-KE, as the > auction says) with a 9-slot DD11-D backplane and a pair of 4-slot > backplanes (not sure what they are, they may also be DD11's, I'm not good > at identifying them from the back ;)). It could potentially be for an > 11/05, but only if that 9-slot backplane isn't a DD11-D and is instead the > special backplane for the 11/05 CPU set... > > - Josh > > > > Agreed, but just from what I had worked with it looks like it was from an 11/05 or possibly it was an expansion core memory box. Either way, you could use it for many things not just an 11/05. The "stock" 11/05 NC would have had a different box. It would have to have been for an 11/05 S model. b From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 12:52:58 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 10:52:58 -0800 Subject: Almost PDP 11/05 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 10:25 AM, william degnan via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > This looks to me like the power supply and backplane of a PDP 11/05, looks > to be in nice shape. Surprised no one grabbed this yet, esp someone with > an 11/05 that has issues with power supply. Someone might have the missing > parts. > > "DEC PDP-11 Digital BA11-KE Mounting Box" > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-Digital-BA11-KE- > Mounting-Box/28265372079 It looks to me like a standard Unibus expansion chassis (a BA11-KE, as the auction says) with a 9-slot DD11-D backplane and a pair of 4-slot backplanes (not sure what they are, they may also be DD11's, I'm not good at identifying them from the back ;)). It could potentially be for an 11/05, but only if that 9-slot backplane isn't a DD11-D and is instead the special backplane for the 11/05 CPU set... - Josh > > > granted "all you need are the cards and the front panel" reminds me of the > steve martin routine. "It's easy to be a millionaire, first get a million > dollars and then ...." > > Compare with > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=622 > > b > From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Tue Nov 21 12:31:53 2017 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 19:31:53 +0100 Subject: Almost PDP 11/05 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 21.11.2017 19:25, william degnan via cctech wrote: > "DEC PDP-11 Digital BA11-KE Mounting Box" > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-Digital-BA11-KE-Mounting-Box/28265372079 > > granted "all you need are the cards and the front panel" reminds me of the Guess who has all the boards, but no backplane & power supply....... Jos, that is.... From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 21 12:35:31 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 12:35:31 -0600 Subject: Almost PDP 11/05 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000a01d362f7$82a82c60$87f88520$@classiccmp.org> A guy recently contacted me that had an 11/05 for sale, stating his first preference was it go to a museum and if that failed, he wanted to sell it. I sure hope he's not parting it out on ebay.... Please don?t email me about it... if the museum he's currently talking to doesn't take it, I'll post it as 'equipment available' here. Best, J From macro at linux-mips.org Tue Nov 21 13:16:01 2017 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 19:16:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DS12887 pcb substitute with battery In-Reply-To: References: <16ia5tihh85q34m2de3g11ib.1485109250088@email.android.com> <8050eb1b-2a2c-2477-cbf5-4a9bdd518cce@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Nov 2017, systems_glitch wrote: > Good stuff! I recently designed a module to build new DS1287 and DS12887 > modules from the bare DS1285 and DS12885 ICs: > > https://imgur.com/a/cgKm5 Nice! That wouldn't solve my problem though, given the apparent unavailability of DS1285 chips (in any packaging, whether surplus or used), compared with the ubiquity of used DS1287 and DS1287A ones, possibly because they were often socketed. Using my systems as a reference for the Linux port I want to avoid any deviation from their original specification so that software does not make use of it by chance. As to the DS12887 and DS12887A chips -- these are still manufactured and readily available, as someone mentioned a while ago, although a bit highly priced, so either reworking an old one or using your alternative does help cutting cost, which may especially matter if you need more than just a few. Maciej From lists at loomcom.com Tue Nov 21 22:03:30 2017 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 20:03:30 -0800 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B2 Networking diskettes Message-ID: <20171122040330.GA9565@xenon.retronet.net> Hi folks, I can't seem to find the "Networking Support Utilities" package for the 3B2 anywhere online. Unfortunately, this package is required in order to install TCP/IP (which I DO have) (Note that this is NOT the "Basic Networking Utilities" package -- that's UUCP, and I do have that) If anyone has diskette images squirreled away, please let me know! -Seth -- Seth Morabito web at loomcom.com From alan at alanlee.org Tue Nov 21 23:26:53 2017 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 00:26:53 -0500 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B2 Networking diskettes In-Reply-To: <20171122040330.GA9565@xenon.retronet.net> References: <20171122040330.GA9565@xenon.retronet.net> Message-ID: I believe the yahozna archive has them under misc/network. However disks 5 and 6 have a txt extension so I afraid someone might have ftp'd them in text mode and not binary. Worth taking a look. Here is a mirror: https://www.3b2archive.org/archive/yahozna/misc/network/ I believe Mowgli Assor also has a copy as I think he got his NI card working in his 300. I can give you his contact info off list. -Alan On 2017-11-21 23:03, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > I can't seem to find the "Networking Support Utilities" package for > the 3B2 anywhere online. Unfortunately, this package is required in > order to install TCP/IP (which I DO have) > > (Note that this is NOT the "Basic Networking Utilities" package -- > that's UUCP, and I do have that) > > If anyone has diskette images squirreled away, please let me know! > > -Seth From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Nov 21 23:44:16 2017 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 21:44:16 -0800 Subject: Sun 3/50 processor board and unknown processor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/20/17, 10:51 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Mattis Lind via cctalk" wrote: >> >> It looks like board 2 is for a Sun 3/50 workstation. Board 1 is some >> kind of micro-programmed processor based on AM29331 and AM29331. There >> are also some Analog Devices DSPs. >> >> AM29000 based processor with Analog Device DSPs >> http://www.chdickman.com/board1.jpg >> >> Sun 3/50 processor >> http://www.chdickman.com/board2.jpg > > >I think this is a 3/60 processor. Not 3/50. > > >> >> Can anyone identify them? >> >> -chuck It is labelled as a sun 3-60 270-1205-04 From alan at alanlee.org Tue Nov 21 20:54:24 2017 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 21:54:24 -0500 Subject: DS12887 pcb substitute with battery In-Reply-To: References: <16ia5tihh85q34m2de3g11ib.1485109250088@email.android.com> <8050eb1b-2a2c-2477-cbf5-4a9bdd518cce@verizon.net> Message-ID: What are you talking about? https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/maxim-integrated/DS12885/DS12885-ND/1196867 -Alan On 2017-11-21 14:16, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctech wrote: > On Mon, 13 Nov 2017, systems_glitch wrote: > >> Good stuff! I recently designed a module to build new DS1287 and >> DS12887 >> modules from the bare DS1285 and DS12885 ICs: >> >> https://imgur.com/a/cgKm5 > > Nice! > > That wouldn't solve my problem though, given the apparent > unavailability > of DS1285 chips (in any packaging, whether surplus or used), compared > with > the ubiquity of used DS1287 and DS1287A ones, possibly because they > were > often socketed. Using my systems as a reference for the Linux port I > want > to avoid any deviation from their original specification so that > software > does not make use of it by chance. > > As to the DS12887 and DS12887A chips -- these are still manufactured > and > readily available, as someone mentioned a while ago, although a bit > highly > priced, so either reworking an old one or using your alternative does > help > cutting cost, which may especially matter if you need more than just a > few. > > Maciej From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Wed Nov 22 03:15:29 2017 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (Bessie Huddleston) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 12:15:29 +0300 Subject: =?utf-8?B?4pigeWFob28gd2hhdCBhIGdvb2Qgc3VycHJpc2U=?= Message-ID: <0010d3c5f332$0d2d62a6$c3b4ac54$@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Hello, I've just read something amazing, it was a nice surprise for me personally, just take a look http://www.samtekintl.com/hurricane.php?UE9jY3RhbGtAY2xhc3NpY2NtcC5vcmc- Best Wishes, Bessie Huddleston From lists at loomcom.com Wed Nov 22 11:46:01 2017 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 09:46:01 -0800 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B2 Networking diskettes In-Reply-To: References: <20171122040330.GA9565@xenon.retronet.net> Message-ID: <20171122174601.GA18665@xenon.retronet.net> Hi Alan, * On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 12:26:53AM -0500, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > I believe the yahozna archive has them under misc/network. Yup, this is where I originally got the NI card driver disk, and the Wollongong TCP/IP disks. Unfortunately, when I attempt to install the Wollongong package, I get the message: Installing Wollongong Integrated Networking WIN/3B: Release 3.0.1. Copyright (c) 1985 The Wollongong Group, Inc. All Rights Reserved **ERROR** Wollongong Integrated Networking WIN/3B: Release 3.0.1 cannot be installed -- It requires the Networking Support Utilities package to be installed first. Digging deeper, it appears that "Network Support Utilities" was a yet a third package that was distributed separately. It's mentioned in the STREAMS programming guide. > I believe Mowgli Assor also has a copy as I think he got his NI card > working in his 300. I can give you his contact info off list. Awesome, thanks, I appreciate it! > -Alan -Seth -- Seth Morabito web at loomcom.com From abuse at mooli.org.uk Wed Nov 22 04:25:00 2017 From: abuse at mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 11:25:00 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: <20171117180252.GA29310@tau1.ceti.pl> <20171121181608.GA22652@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20171122102500.2eg7r26hgyd5scec@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 08:15:00PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: [...] > A file-based virus could escape _if_ the VM had access to the host > filesystem. But mine don't, partly because it's moderately hard, partly > because it takes a _ton_ of RAM in DOS terms. Not really: QEMU can be configured to add a Virtio device, which exposes a host filesystem via 9P (the Plan 9 filesystem protocol). A DOS device driver for that would be of comparable complexity to a CD-ROM driver. [...] > DOSbox is an emulator, so I've not looked at it. Ditto Bochs. > DOSemu works but it's not very stable. It's easy to crash it and lose > your session. > I don't think there's much chance of getting DESQview or anything > ambitious like that running on it. I bet QEMU would run them. The only real downside is that its documentation is dire so advanced configuration to cope with more bizarre requirements is more difficult than it ought to be. The gdbserver support is also invaluable for people who hack on kernels. It works nicely on 32 and 64 bit code, but I've never tried to debug 16 bit code with it. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 22 15:11:13 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 14:11:13 -0700 Subject: Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus In-Reply-To: References: <1e0fd332-1be5-10d6-fb26-ce7bc90a3582@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/20/2017 8:41 AM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: > On Nov 19, 2017, at 11:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> So we agree on parallel standard buses, that STD bus is a strong >> contender with varied processor base. > > Catching up late, sorry if this is an old question, but what did the Digital Group computers use? My recollection is that they offered cards with 6800, 6502, 8080, and Z-80 CPUs on the same bus, and that part of the system seemed to work reasonably well. (At least, the Digital Group system complaints I read seem to center on the PhiDeck mass storage system not the CPU/memorylperihperal bus.) > There is a nice website at: http://www.bytecollector.com/dg_cards.htm which seems to show cards with not a whole lot of pins to connect to the bus - maybe 36 pins on the visible side, though the card is definitely 2-sided so probably 36 more on the back side? > I think they also had the chip that did the pdp8 instruction set too. That also brings up the other point, what software did they have? Ben. I can see it now, a pdp 8 time sharing emulating a 6502 emulating a 8080. :) From t.gardner at computer.org Wed Nov 22 16:52:03 2017 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 14:52:03 -0800 Subject: Idle question: Color of tape coatings Message-ID: <006e01d363e4$84266b40$8c7341c0$@computer.org> Hi: The following answer comes from a retired IBM tape technologist: The color of the coatings on a tape are dominated by the magnetic pigment (or the carbon used in back coats..which is black)..the earliest iron oxide coatings were based on the conversion of alpha-iron oxide which is a pale yellow and some what needle shaped (longer than wide) but non-magnetic to gamma iron oxide which is magnetic. The very early particles were not very homogeneous and were very highly aggregated....poor conversion as the early particle were being produced by paint pigment manufactures as a specialty product in low volume. These were a yellow brown color..but by the 60's gamma iron oxide of 250-300 Oe was commonly used in the magnetic layer coatings. These were typically brown to chocolate brown (if they had some carbon black mixed in for surface conductivity (anti-static) which depending on the use as well as the manufacturer varied a lot i n surface finish (gloss) as well). This market was driven by audio primarily and dynamic range and analogue signal characteristics such wow & flutter were driving formulation and magnetic particle development. In the late 60-s and 70's new particles began to enter the market..Cobalt doped and later cobalt 'modified" gamma iron oxide as well as chromium dioxide..and some very early explorations of iron metal particles and some exotic mixed metal crystals... The colors of the magnetic coatings based on more acicular gamma iron oxide made specifically for the recording market were now reddish brown , cobalt doped were a dark brown - to black, chromium dioxide is very black..remember during this period digital recording in both tapes and disks were now the growth areas driving new pigment development and drastically improved formulations driven by the need for improved durability, longevity and wear characteristics (drop outs (defects & debris), head wear and head/drive contamination being increasingly problematic)..in the 90's metal particle and BaFe pigments took over tape while disks moved to thin film magnetic layers. As for reel materials and hub evolution..the initial reels were metal and expensive...plastic became normal in the 60's and beyond for the most part..but for master copies or sensitive archival reels..glass or metal were preferred... but changes in the materials were driven by the higher tape speeds,tensions and demands for improved reliability and durability. Hubs in some drives had to be conductive so had carbon black or metals added to them to improve the compressive strength and conductivity. A lot of very innovative but subtle design features moved into tape reels/hubs specifically designed for various transports and industry demands. In addition lubrication and binder changes were common as the needs for the various products in audio, video and digital recording advanced. Hope this helps..but if the interest is primarily in getting a useful detailed knowledge of a particular tape..color is pretty much useless..you need SEM/EDAX and GC/MS and a database of tape analyses to compare to in order to really begin..and then to really know the tape you need DMA/DMTA mechanical analysis, and AFM/MFM surface profiles.....but to my knowledge only IBM had that data and I imagine it ..like so much of that knowledge learned from 1962-2008 is now gone. Tom -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:35 PM To: CCtalk Subject: Idle question: Color of tape coatings While working on some old (again!) half-inch tapes, I note that some of the very old ones have an oxide coating about the color of milk chocolate. Newer ones are anywhere from dark chocolate to black. Reel construction is another aspect. The really old ones tend to be all clear plastic, including the hub area. Newer ones have either a black plastic reinforcement to the hub or employ an aluminum sleeve. In most cases, the oldest of these is from around 1964, but probably older than that, as the only clues I have are dates placed by the tape librarian when a tape is put back into the pool or a label indicating when the tape was last recertified. Was there a date after which *all* half-inch tape became the dark brown to nearly black in color? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 22 17:17:27 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 15:17:27 -0800 Subject: Idle question: Color of tape coatings In-Reply-To: <006e01d363e4$84266b40$8c7341c0$@computer.org> References: <006e01d363e4$84266b40$8c7341c0$@computer.org> Message-ID: On 11/22/2017 02:52 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > The following answer comes from a retired IBM tape technologist: > > The color of the coatings on a tape are dominated by the magnetic pigment (or the carbon used in back coats..which is black)..the earliest iron oxide coatings were based on the conversion of alpha-iron oxide which is a pale yellow and some what needle shaped (longer than wide) but non-magnetic to gamma iron oxide which is magnetic. The very early particles were not very homogeneous and were very highly aggregated....poor conversion as the early particle were being produced by paint pigment manufactures as a specialty product in low volume. These were a yellow brown color..but by the 60's gamma iron oxide of 250-300 Oe was commonly used in the magnetic layer coatings. These were typically brown to chocolate brown (if they had some carbon black mixed in for surface conductivity (anti-static) which depending on the use as well as the manufacturer varied a lot i n surface finish (gloss) as well). This market was driven by audio primarily and dynamic range and analogue signal characteristics such wow & flutter were driving formulation and magnetic particle development. > > In the late 60-s and 70's new particles began to enter the market..Cobalt doped and later cobalt 'modified" gamma iron oxide as well as chromium dioxide..and some very early explorations of iron metal particles and some exotic mixed metal crystals... The colors of the magnetic coatings based on more acicular gamma iron oxide made specifically for the recording market were now reddish brown , cobalt doped were a dark brown - to black, chromium dioxide is very black..remember during this period digital recording in both tapes and disks were now the growth areas driving new pigment development and drastically improved formulations driven by the need for improved durability, longevity and wear characteristics (drop outs (defects & debris), head wear and head/drive contamination being increasingly problematic)..in the 90's metal particle and BaFe pigments took over tape while disks moved to thin film magnetic layers. > > As for reel materials and hub evolution..the initial reels were metal and expensive...plastic became normal in the 60's and beyond for the most part..but for master copies or sensitive archival reels..glass or metal were preferred... but changes in the materials were driven by the higher tape speeds,tensions and demands for improved reliability and durability. Hubs in some drives had to be conductive so had carbon black or metals added to them to improve the compressive strength and conductivity. A lot of very innovative but subtle design features moved into tape reels/hubs specifically designed for various transports and industry demands. In addition lubrication and binder changes were common as the needs for the various products in audio, video and digital recording advanced. > > Hope this helps..but if the interest is primarily in getting a useful detailed knowledge of a particular tape..color is pretty much useless..you need SEM/EDAX and GC/MS and a database of tape analyses to compare to in order to really begin..and then to really know the tape you need DMA/DMTA mechanical analysis, and AFM/MFM surface profiles.....but to my knowledge only IBM had that data and I imagine it ..like so much of that knowledge learned from 1962-2008 is now gone. Thank you for a very detailed answer, Tom! What's surprised me is how the 60's tapes have survived so well. Most of the problems that I've encountered have been with leaky leader splices and missing BOT markers--and a few broken flanges, all easily remedied. FWIW, I repair flanges when the pieces are still intact by slipping a sheet of Tyvek between the tape and the flange, then solvent-welding the flange pieces back together using MEK sparingly. The result is quite solid after a day of drying--and the Tyvek keeps any MEK out of the tape itself. I can usually pick up where a BOT marker used to be by shining a strong light on the back of the tape and slowly unspooling it until I can see the faint outline of where the BOT marker used to be and then apply a new one. Many tapes seem to lack EOT markers, but that's not an issue for these tapes. Dried-out glue on paper labels can be replaced with a bit of Scotch 77 spray adhesive. As far as redoing splices, I use a VHS tape editing kit. Works very well. 80's Memorex tapes, however have taught me to be cautious, some of them get very sticky. --Chuck From bear at typewritten.org Wed Nov 22 22:01:42 2017 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 20:01:42 -0800 Subject: PC-Letter "WUI" War over User Interface 1-1988 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DC98DF1-38E7-4B94-B1F5-59288EEEEDD1@typewritten.org> On Nov 21, 2017, at 8:36 AM, william degnan via cctech wrote: > Basically I am unsure what planet the author was from, but you can decide > for yourself. Talks a little about HP's GUI product, Sun/AT&T, Apple > Finder, etc. Mentions NeXT is coming, Commodore is dead, ... opinionated. I don't know, I found the authors observations apposite, and his conclusions pretty reasonable. He is more sympathetic toward DeskMate than I think I was inclined to be, but his angle re: Tandy's being in tune with small business is interesting, and something I hadn't really considered properly before. '87 was a little early to declare Amiga "dead", I suppose, but his criticisms of what (if I've figured correctly) would've been Workbench 1.1 are pretty well on the mark (though I don't understand why he thinks having drives named df0: etc. represents some kind of problem). It did improve in many necessary ways, but sometime after the A3000, Amiga seemed to me to be pretty well "stuck". New Wave was neat, but solved problems with Windows that ultimately nobody was interested in having HP solve. The proto-OLE features were very clumsy to make work in practice, as one might have predicted based on the state of the PC applications market at the time. I think the announcement of OLE probably took a lot of wind out of New Wave's sails (wind it may never really have had). The Xerox 6085 is certainly interesting, but not an especially powerful machine, and ViewPoint does indeed suffer from Xerox' insular development culture. It is without question a great tool, within its specific design parameters. But those same design parameters gave it profound (I'd argue "catastrophic") limitations w/rt finding success in the more general purpose personal computer market. Screenshots for a few of these systems (and a number of others from my collection) are on my site; http://www.typewritten.org/Media/ ok bear. -- until further notice From bear at typewritten.org Wed Nov 22 22:01:42 2017 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 20:01:42 -0800 Subject: PC-Letter "WUI" War over User Interface 1-1988 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DC98DF1-38E7-4B94-B1F5-59288EEEEDD1@typewritten.org> On Nov 21, 2017, at 8:36 AM, william degnan via cctech wrote: > Basically I am unsure what planet the author was from, but you can decide > for yourself. Talks a little about HP's GUI product, Sun/AT&T, Apple > Finder, etc. Mentions NeXT is coming, Commodore is dead, ... opinionated. I don't know, I found the authors observations apposite, and his conclusions pretty reasonable. He is more sympathetic toward DeskMate than I think I was inclined to be, but his angle re: Tandy's being in tune with small business is interesting, and something I hadn't really considered properly before. '87 was a little early to declare Amiga "dead", I suppose, but his criticisms of what (if I've figured correctly) would've been Workbench 1.1 are pretty well on the mark (though I don't understand why he thinks having drives named df0: etc. represents some kind of problem). It did improve in many necessary ways, but sometime after the A3000, Amiga seemed to me to be pretty well "stuck". New Wave was neat, but solved problems with Windows that ultimately nobody was interested in having HP solve. The proto-OLE features were very clumsy to make work in practice, as one might have predicted based on the state of the PC applications market at the time. I think the announcement of OLE probably took a lot of wind out of New Wave's sails (wind it may never really have had). The Xerox 6085 is certainly interesting, but not an especially powerful machine, and ViewPoint does indeed suffer from Xerox' insular development culture. It is without question a great tool, within its specific design parameters. But those same design parameters gave it profound (I'd argue "catastrophic") limitations w/rt finding success in the more general purpose personal computer market. Screenshots for a few of these systems (and a number of others from my collection) are on my site; http://www.typewritten.org/Media/ ok bear. -- until further notice From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 23 06:39:35 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 07:39:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC indicator panel 'light shield' Message-ID: <20171123123935.6247B18C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So Dave Bridgham and I are continuing to make (slow) progress with the QSIC and indicator panel project; the latest step was to find some LEDs which look much more like the original lights: http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/new-led.jpg So now I'm trying to make up a prototype 'light shield' (the flat board with all the holes drilled in it); the parts list in the drawings (RF11 engineering drawings, pg. 187) just calls it a 'Benelex', which is the name for the material it was made of (sort of like MDF), but 'light shield' is what I've taken to calling it. Anyway, the drawings there do not, alas, give any dimensions. Can one of the people who has an original please measure it for me? Just WxLxD is all I need; I have a good photo, and can get all the other measurements I need from that, once I know the 'scale'. (Well, not the depth, which I can't see in the image, which is why I need that to.) Thanks! Noel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Nov 23 06:58:33 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 12:58:33 +0000 Subject: Xerox 820 Message-ID: The 820 is spoken for. Let's see what I find next. bill From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Nov 23 10:57:33 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 10:57:33 -0600 Subject: DEC indicator panel 'light shield' In-Reply-To: <20171123123935.6247B18C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171123123935.6247B18C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5A16FDFD.4040304@pico-systems.com> On 11/23/2017 06:39 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > So now I'm trying to make up a prototype 'light shield' (the flat board with > all the holes drilled in it); the parts list in the drawings (RF11 engineering > drawings, pg. 187) just calls it a 'Benelex', which is the name for the > material it was made of (sort of like MDF), but 'light shield' is what I've > taken to calling it. > I have made very similar technology panels before. I used black Plexiglas as the "light shield", and used an end mill to plunge the holes through, rather than a drill. I think that made cleaner holes. Jon From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 11:53:18 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 18:53:18 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: <20171122102500.2eg7r26hgyd5scec@mooli.org.uk> References: <20171117180252.GA29310@tau1.ceti.pl> <20171121181608.GA22652@tau1.ceti.pl> <20171122102500.2eg7r26hgyd5scec@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 22 November 2017 at 11:25, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 08:15:00PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> A file-based virus could escape _if_ the VM had access to the host >> filesystem. But mine don't, partly because it's moderately hard, partly >> because it takes a _ton_ of RAM in DOS terms. > > Not really: QEMU can be configured to add a Virtio device, which exposes a host > filesystem via 9P (the Plan 9 filesystem protocol). A DOS device driver for > that would be of comparable complexity to a CD-ROM driver. Which itself takes a ton of RAM, in MS-DOS terms. So far, trying VMware Player and VirtualBox, you only seem to get about 48 kB of so of usable UMBs, if you want a page frame as well. CD support takes, well, about that. Circa 35 kB or so. Network support is about 100 kB of RAM -- a hell of a lot for DOS. Back then, the fact that the Netware client could run partially in XMS or EMS was a big competitive advantage. The MS client was lardy, and that was with efficient little protocols like NetBEUI. Add something a bit chunkier like IPX/SPX or DECnet, and it became basically impossible to keep the whole thing from eating a significant chunk of conventional memory too. TCP/IP basically postdates the MS-DOS era, in PC terms, and it's Bloaty McBloatface. Couple that with needing SMB/CIFS support, and you can be looking at something horrendous like 150 kB of RAM. And you want 9p?! I mean, be my guest, go implement it, but to talk to VBox or VMware, you need CIFS. I've tried QEMU and KVM for work, just before I was off sick. My reaction is roughly that of Ford Prefect to Vogon poetry. It might be OK if you want a server hypervisor, which I don't, personally. But then, earlier this year, my reaction to modern server VMware was broadly similar. Horrified incredulity and appalled revulsion. Now I have it working, I concede, it actually _works_ quite well. I can run a bunch of VMs with a total of about 18-20GB of allocated RAM, concurrently, on a host machine with 12GB of RAM, and it _works_, and amazingly it's quick. (Of course this is a play/text box, and they're all unloaded.) But setup... *Screams and writhes* KVM? Well, it's every big as unpleasant or more so, but it's agonizing in a Unixy way, which is at least more familiar, so through the suffering and the tears, I could just about see enough to get it working. But only someone who thinks that Emacs or Vi are usable editors could think this was an appealing virtualisation solution. Did I mention my more or less complete and utter loathing for C21 computing? Why do you think I'm playing with MS-DOS again after 20y? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 13:34:10 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 19:34:10 +0000 Subject: TRS80 Model 4P CRT contrast fail Message-ID: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> Hi folks, A random facebook post made me dig out my model 4P which has never worked as long as I?ve owned it, it?s always just sat on a shelf looking cute. Good old ASTEC PSU problem so I fixed that, reseated all the thankfully socketed chips and it burst into life. Sort of. I know it?s running because I can turn the brightness up to raster lines and see the pattern actually change when RESET is pressed. With contrast right up I can JUST see the boot logo appear while it reads the floppy. None of the pots on the video board deal with contrast so I?ve got it out on the bench to remove and test the capacitors. What else can I look at at the same time? Someone else has already mentioned the transistors Q101, Q102 and Q103 (on the yoke board). Screen pic: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/trs80Model4PScreen.jpg - you can JUST see the boot logo, I know it?s not screen burn because it does disappear on RESET and comes back again. Video board schematic: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/trs80Model4PVideoBoardSchematic.png Cheers! ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards From rtomek at ceti.pl Thu Nov 23 14:01:53 2017 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 21:01:53 +0100 Subject: Editor [was: Re: DR-DOS] In-Reply-To: References: <20171117180252.GA29310@tau1.ceti.pl> <20171121181608.GA22652@tau1.ceti.pl> <20171122102500.2eg7r26hgyd5scec@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20171123200153.GB15661@tau1.ceti.pl> On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 06:53:18PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: [...] > But only someone who thinks that Emacs or Vi are usable editors could > think this was an appealing virtualisation solution. Oh my, I know you are not offensive and I think flame over editors is really stupid thing to do, but whenever I read I could do something better, yet without hint how to change for the better, it is an itch to scratch for me. So, with half of my tongue in a cheek, which editors should I choose from - sed, ed, cat, joe, dd? Requirement: __has_to__ work on a terminal without loss of functionality (even though 99% of my editing happens in X, and I can live with "some" loss), no Javascript inside (mostly, because I am not willing to learn this anytime soon). Right now, the best choice for me is emacs - lots of configurability, I can take Elisp to another emacs and hopefully it will work there, too. It requires bit of caution, I use one very old one (from very old Linux which I will not upgrade to another Linux) and newer one, handcompiled. So there is some conflict of available features, but most of the time, not a big problem. I tried packages (via elpa?) and it was not good (at one point, emacs no longer booted), so I guess I will have to devise something of my own to play with other people's code (or have deep look at elpa). One choice leads to another, so nowadays I am writing my own snippets in Elisp. Because if one wants this frog, then eating it is inevitable. Customization in Elisp is very cool thing (IMHO). There is a number of things that would irritate me (like hell) but can be mitigated after bending some code for an hour or a five. Stuff like black mouse pointer over black background (now it is hot pink, very hard to miss it). The idea here is that of "five hours of bending, five years of not having to bend it again". We will see how this bet plays out but even if I had to bend it every second month, it is still huge plus over cost of being irritated. However, my emacs config claims to have started in 1999, and I mostly have no idea when I had to edit most of the old code there (quite often it was just copy-pasted from blogs, with only minimal understanding what I was doing). Anyway, this bet is probably reasonable. Vi (vim/gvim) is nice too, and quick, but not so often used. Both work over wire. I might be editing this email with one of them. Of course I will gladly learn about other choices. Seriously. What others are using? > Did I mention my more or less complete and utter loathing for C21 computing? I guess a lot of people do, too. > Why do you think I'm playing with MS-DOS again after 20y? I can see your loathing is bigger than mine... ("Spaceballs") -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 23 14:28:05 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 15:28:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: DR-DOS Message-ID: <20171123202805.2533018C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Liam Proven > TCP/IP basically postdates the MS-DOS era, in PC terms, and it's Bloaty > McBloatface. This must be a uSloth TCP/IP you are speaking of. There's the one from FTP software which was based on the one done at MIT which was freeware. That one was definitely DOS-era - it ran on DOS 1 and DOS 2. I think I have the MIT version somewhere if you have a use for it. > But only someone who thinks that Emacs or Vi are usable editors could > think this was an appealing virtualisation solution. Epsilon! Even on Windows 95, it was a not-so-humungous 261KB. If Lugaru can't cough up a DOS version, I'm pretty sure I still have my DOS Epsilon distro disks somewhere. Of course, I would have to get a 5" floppy drive working... :-) Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 23 14:28:44 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 15:28:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Slightly OT: Computer internals book recommendations Message-ID: <20171123202844.16F4418C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Christopherson > I have an inside scoop that a certain library is about to get rid of > their 2003 printing (which is apparently 1st edition) ABE seems to have copies for around US$10: https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?bi=0&bx=on&cm_sp=SearchF-_-Advtab1-_-Results&ds=30&recentlyadded=all&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=Computer+Systems%3A+A+Programmers+Perspective Noel From chris at groessler.org Thu Nov 23 14:31:56 2017 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 21:31:56 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: <20171123202805.2533018C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171123202805.2533018C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8786af60-d10f-5ccc-fa20-aa3c9b94fc5b@groessler.org> On 11/23/17 21:28, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Liam Proven > > > TCP/IP basically postdates the MS-DOS era, in PC terms, and it's Bloaty > > McBloatface. > > This must be a uSloth TCP/IP you are speaking of. There's the one from FTP > software which was based on the one done at MIT which was freeware. That one > was definitely DOS-era - it ran on DOS 1 and DOS 2. I think I have the MIT > version somewhere if you have a use for it. I would be interested. > > But only someone who thinks that Emacs or Vi are usable editors could > > think this was an appealing virtualisation solution. > > Epsilon! Even on Windows 95, it was a not-so-humungous 261KB. If Lugaru > can't cough up a DOS version, I'm pretty sure I still have my DOS Epsilon > distro disks somewhere. Of course, I would have to get a 5" floppy drive > working... :-) When your are talking about editors and DOS, the only answer is BRIEF! regards, chris From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 23 14:43:56 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 12:43:56 -0800 Subject: TRS80 Model 4P CRT contrast fail In-Reply-To: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> References: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f565d12-059d-4729-a063-e97e464c0a6e@sydex.com> On 11/23/2017 11:34 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > None of the pots on the video board deal with contrast so I?ve got it out on the bench to remove and test the capacitors. What else can I look at at the same time? Someone else has already mentioned the transistors Q101, Q102 and Q103 (on the yoke board). Have you tried replacing C101? What happens if you temporarily remove TR101? --Chuck From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Nov 23 15:18:00 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 13:18:00 -0800 Subject: TRS80 Model 4P CRT contrast fail In-Reply-To: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> References: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8BB928AE-42FD-4A47-86BE-794DEBAB3F66@shaw.ca> On 2017-Nov-23, at 11:34 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > A random facebook post made me dig out my model 4P which has never worked as long as I?ve owned it, it?s always just sat on a shelf looking cute. > > Good old ASTEC PSU problem so I fixed that, reseated all the thankfully socketed chips and it burst into life. Sort of. I know it?s running because I can turn the brightness up to raster lines and see the pattern actually change when RESET is pressed. With contrast right up I can JUST see the boot logo appear while it reads the floppy. > > None of the pots on the video board deal with contrast so I?ve got it out on the bench to remove and test the capacitors. What else can I look at at the same time? Someone else has already mentioned the transistors Q101, Q102 and Q103 (on the yoke board). > > Screen pic: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/trs80Model4PScreen.jpg - you can JUST see the boot logo, I know it?s not screen burn because it does disappear on RESET and comes back again. > > Video board schematic: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/trs80Model4PVideoBoardSchematic.png You might check the contrast control. I can't find the actual schematic for the contrast control connections, but I 'm guessing the ends are connected across 12V (video board pins 5 & 1/4/10) and the wiper to video board pin 8. The contrast control can be expected to take pin 8 somewhere + to get pixels fully on. Or get back to us with some voltage measurements at the BCE of TR101, 2 and 3, and at the external connections to the little board on the end of the CRT. Note that there will (should) be several hundred volts on some of those CRT board connections. Does the "internal brightness" control on the video board have some effect? From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 17:53:42 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 00:53:42 +0100 Subject: Editor [was: Re: DR-DOS] In-Reply-To: <20171123200153.GB15661@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20171117180252.GA29310@tau1.ceti.pl> <20171121181608.GA22652@tau1.ceti.pl> <20171122102500.2eg7r26hgyd5scec@mooli.org.uk> <20171123200153.GB15661@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On 23 November 2017 at 21:01, Tomasz Rola wrote: > On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 06:53:18PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> But only someone who thinks that Emacs or Vi are usable editors could >> think this was an appealing virtualisation solution. > > Oh my, I know you are not offensive and I think flame over editors is > really stupid thing to do, but whenever I read I could do something > better, yet without hint how to change for the better, it is an itch > to scratch for me. So, with half of my tongue in a cheek, which > editors should I choose from - sed, ed, cat, joe, dd? I am wondering if I can cut-n-paste my response from somewhere but the last time I had this argument, it was at work, on work systems, and I shouldn't do that. Some of it is here: http://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/32740.html And a sequel here which answers your direct question: http://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/42908.html Currently, I use Tilde. Why? Basically, when I started out, I learned the Sinclair ZX series ROM editor, then the improved one in Beta BASIC, then the full-screen one on the Spectrum 128. I even bought the numeric keypad, which is super-rare. I did a lot of word-processing of essays on it, in The Last Word, an obscure word processor app. Then I went to university and learned some VMS and Fortran. I probably used VMS EDT. Then I got an Amstrad PCW and learned CP/M and some of the horrible old CP/M editors, the passable RPED and LocoScript. Then I started working, and learned Edlin, then the DR-DOS 5 editor, then the slightly better MS-DOS 5 EDIT. I also learned the Novell Netware editor, and Xenix vi. I worked with and supported WordStar, NewWord, WordStar Express (totally different!), WordStar 2000 (different again), WordPerfect, MultiMate, DisplayWrite, MS Word 3 and 4 for DOS, Samna Executive and others. All had totally different UIs. All were to some degree horrid. My least-disliked was MS Word for DOS. MS Word 5 switched the weird old MS UI for a CUA one of text-based menus. I learned that and liked it. I also worked on Macs and knew WriteNow, MacWrite, MS Word for Mac, TeachText, SimpleText, and others. Some a bit weird but all much better than on DOS! Then came Windows and NOTEPAD.EXE. Basically, after Windows, all editors were CUA. Menu bar at the top, Ctrl-O to open, Ctrl-P to print, Ctrl-S to save. Original weird CUA cut/copy/paste was replaced with Mac-style Ctrl-X/C/V. That's how _all_ editors work now -- including Kate, GEdit, Leafpad, Geany, basically every Linux desktop's editor. Except at the shell prompt, where horrid arcane old stuff from the 1970s lives on like a pack of zombies. All are totally weird and nonstandard except for a third-rate knock-off of WordStar, which itself was weird and nonstandard, because there were no standards back then. I refuse to even try to use any of them. I want a CUA editor. Standard menu bar, all the standard keystrokes. Standard terminology -- files/windows/panes/cut/copy/paste/clipboard etc. I will not use anything that involves "yanking" or "buffers" or command modes or any of that '70s garbage. Get modern or get out. The point here being that I learned *dozens* of editor UIs in my teens and early 20s. They were all horrid to some degree. The Mac banished them all, Windows nailed the coffin shut. MS-DOS conformed. It's _long_ past time Unix did too. > Requirement: __has_to__ work on a terminal without loss of > functionality (even though 99% of my editing happens in X, and I can > live with "some" loss), no Javascript inside (mostly, because I am not > willing to learn this anytime soon). Tilde. > Right now, the best choice for me is emacs - lots of configurability, > I can take Elisp to another emacs and hopefully it will work there, > too. I have tried. Repeatedly. The crazy horrid old UI and crazy horrid terminology in the manual and tutorial put me off. I can't get past it. I don't write code. I want no syntax highlighting, no code-completion, none of that, because it gets in my way. I write English and I want a tool for that, with the standard UI and keystrokes. Any additional wonderful editing power is nice but entirely secondary. I don't need it. I don't really want it. But with the big 2 -- vi and emacs -- I have to get past foul fetid stinking rotten '70s UIs -- and the only enticement, the only reason, is vast editing power I don't actually need. > Of course I will gladly learn about other choices. Seriously. What > others are using? I think my choices will offer nothing to you! :-( >> Did I mention my more or less complete and utter loathing for C21 computing? > > I guess a lot of people do, too. Yes. But not enough. :-) >> Why do you think I'm playing with MS-DOS again after 20y? > > I can see your loathing is bigger than mine... ("Spaceballs") :-D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 17:59:26 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 00:59:26 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: <20171123202805.2533018C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171123202805.2533018C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 23 November 2017 at 21:28, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > This must be a uSloth TCP/IP you are speaking of. There's the one from FTP > software which was based on the one done at MIT which was freeware. That one > was definitely DOS-era - it ran on DOS 1 and DOS 2. I think I have the MIT > version somewhere if you have a use for it. Well, yes, it is the MS one, because really it needs to talk over a modern PCI NIC -- or emulation thereof -- to a host hypervisor pretending to be an SMB server. It needs to talk to the MS networking client, as that is the single most important use case. DOS is not must use for accessing the internet today! I don't need finger or ftp or telnet, I need a client that can authenticate and connect to a Samba share, and basically nothing else. > > But only someone who thinks that Emacs or Vi are usable editors could > > think this was an appealing virtualisation solution. > > Epsilon! Even on Windows 95, it was a not-so-humungous 261KB. If Lugaru > can't cough up a DOS version, I'm pretty sure I still have my DOS Epsilon > distro disks somewhere. Of course, I would have to get a 5" floppy drive > working... :-) Heh. :-) I had to Google it -- never heard of it before. I am not an Emacs fan, partly because of its horrendous UI and keystrokes, and I don't code, least of all in C, so its feature list is not one calculated to appeal to me, I'm afraid. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 18:00:25 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 01:00:25 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: <8786af60-d10f-5ccc-fa20-aa3c9b94fc5b@groessler.org> References: <20171123202805.2533018C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8786af60-d10f-5ccc-fa20-aa3c9b94fc5b@groessler.org> Message-ID: On 23 November 2017 at 21:31, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: > > When your are talking about editors and DOS, the only answer is BRIEF! Now that I _have_ heard of, yes. Never used it, though. Never really was a programmer. The tiny bit of coding I did on the PC was in the built-in editor of QuickBASIC 3 and later QB4. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From shumaker at att.net Thu Nov 23 18:28:05 2017 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 16:28:05 -0800 Subject: early IBM S360 docs Message-ID: <9b3f9d75-eacd-a2b3-9e5e-4ecdae418f42@att.net> Free for shipping from 95006, a stack of original IBM documents for the S/360 including Field Engineering Manuals and Systems Reference Library documents plus others - dumpster rescues from an engineer's estate.? All have been hi res scanned. Titles from the IBM Systems Reference Library as well as several Field Engineer Manuals.? Everything except one doc is an original publication (and the dup looks like it was done contemporary to the other originals).? Dates on everything are late 60s or early 70s. some titles: Field Engineering Manual Vol 1 3277 Field Engineering Manual Vol 1 3271 Engineering Reference Manual Automatic Punches System 360 Model 40 Functional characteristics System 360 System Summary System 360 Basic Operating System Specifications File utilities IBM 46-47 Tape to Card Punch Manual of Operation IBM Systems Reference Library 7 Oct 1968 Cumulative Index of Pubs and Programs No parsing out individual titles - this is all or nothing.? Box weight is ~28lbs ( and it's all paper - there are no 3 ring binders adding to the weight). It can ship media rate - figure 29 lbs by the time I get packing matl and tape included. First requester gets it.. Steve Shumaker Boulder Creek, CA From lists at loomcom.com Thu Nov 23 19:38:29 2017 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 17:38:29 -0800 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B2 Networking diskettes In-Reply-To: <20171122040330.GA9565@xenon.retronet.net> References: <20171122040330.GA9565@xenon.retronet.net> Message-ID: <20171124013829.GB20965@xenon.retronet.net> * On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 08:03:30PM -0800, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > I can't seem to find the "Networking Support Utilities" package for > the 3B2 anywhere online. Unfortunately, this package is required in > order to install TCP/IP (which I DO have) Replying to myself here to preserve it for posterity, and in case anyone else is looking. I was able to track down two versions of the NSU software in Josh's Yahozna archive. It was unfortunately not in floppy image format, but rather a cpio archive dumped from a tape. Thankfully, I was able to turn the archive into an installation floppy image using the 3B2 emulator! The floppy images, if anyone else needs them, are now archived on my homepage here: https://loomcom.com/3b2/emulator/#other_software -Seth -- Seth Morabito web at loomcom.com From shumaker at att.net Thu Nov 23 20:59:31 2017 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 18:59:31 -0800 Subject: early IBM S360 docs In-Reply-To: <9b3f9d75-eacd-a2b3-9e5e-4ecdae418f42@att.net> References: <9b3f9d75-eacd-a2b3-9e5e-4ecdae418f42@att.net> Message-ID: <6a1e802a-905e-c898-b583-85043e3f6afd@att.net> On 11/23/2017 4:28 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > Free for shipping from 95006, a stack of original IBM documents for > the S/360 including Field Engineering Manuals and Systems Reference > Library documents plus others - dumpster rescues from an engineer's > estate.? All have been hi res scanned. > > Titles from the IBM Systems Reference Library as well as several Field > Engineer Manuals.? Everything except one doc is an original > publication (and the dup looks like it was done contemporary to the > other originals).? Dates on everything are late 60s or early 70s. > > some titles: > > Field Engineering Manual Vol 1 3277 > > Field Engineering Manual Vol 1 3271 > > Engineering Reference Manual Automatic Punches > > System 360 Model 40 Functional characteristics > > System 360 System Summary > > System 360 Basic Operating System Specifications File utilities > > IBM 46-47 Tape to Card Punch Manual of Operation > > IBM Systems Reference Library 7 Oct 1968 Cumulative Index of Pubs and > Programs > > No parsing out individual titles - this is all or nothing.? Box weight > is ~28lbs ( and it's all paper - there are no 3 ring binders adding to > the weight). > > It can ship media rate - figure 29 lbs by the time I get packing matl > and tape included. > First requester gets it.. > > > Steve Shumaker > Boulder Creek, CA > > documents have been spoken for - thanks for all the responses! Steve From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 21:02:29 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 23:02:29 -0400 Subject: PC diskette drives in a HP 9122C was WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <71be6676-c829-33e3-4e48-b3ca4eedcefc@gmail.com> References: <6C6CD3BA-F85B-4D47-893E-1726A7A2D93B@nf6x.net> <15fbddf8cf0-c0c-1bac3@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> <71be6676-c829-33e3-4e48-b3ca4eedcefc@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have managed to get 2 PC type drives working in a 9122C they are two different versions of the YE Data YD-702D.? The important thing is the drive needs to provide a ready signal, diskette change and density.? Most drives provide the last two but do not have a ready signal.? You also need to leave pin 1 unconnected this is a signal from the controller to reset the diskette changed signal.? One of the drive the YD-702D-6037 can also be altered by moving jumpers to get power from the cable.? The other a YD-702D-6537D does not and it unfortunately seems to be the more common drive.? I changed the drives so that ready is on Pin 34, diskette change on pin 2 and density on pin 4, the same as the Sony drive in the 9122C.? I did encounter one problem where if I tried to CAT a diskette it would always report that the diskette was changed or missing and I recall encountering this previously, it may be related to how the diskette changed signal gets reset. On most "standard" 3.5" drives the diskette changed signal gets reset as soon as the drive is selected and receives a step pulse. On the Sony drives used in the 9122C reset the diskette changed signal by a pulse on pin 1 from the controller.? What I think is happening is when media is changed, the controller thinks it does not have to move the head so the diskette changed never gets reset so the controller continues to think the diskette has been changed, I will do more testing to verify.? I thought that booting with the drive empty provoked this but that is not the case.? I can post details of the modifications to the drives if anyone is interested. Paul. On 2017-11-17 1:26 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > I just checked my 9122C I happen to have open and the interval between > index pulses is 199.66mS? which would be 300 RPM, which is good news > for me I can now proceed with adapting a more common 1.44 drive to > replace my broken one. > > Paul. > > > On 2017-11-17 1:04 PM, Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk wrote: >> Check your email. How can you tell if it uses a 600 RPM mechanism or >> not? >> >> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> >>> Hi Eric, >>> >>> It's not urgent, but when you have a chance, could you dump the 9122C >>> ROM(s) and take high resolution photos of the controller board? >>> >>> Since it does HD, I suspect it probably does not use a 600 RPM >>> mechanism. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Eric >>> From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 24 00:02:27 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 22:02:27 -0800 Subject: PC diskette drives in a HP 9122C was WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <6C6CD3BA-F85B-4D47-893E-1726A7A2D93B@nf6x.net> <15fbddf8cf0-c0c-1bac3@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> <71be6676-c829-33e3-4e48-b3ca4eedcefc@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57eef8f8-be15-f182-a336-41e201f5dd0e@sydex.com> On 11/23/2017 07:02 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > I have managed to get 2 PC type drives working in a 9122C they are two > different versions of the YE Data YD-702D.? The important thing is the > drive needs to provide a ready signal, diskette change and density.? > Most drives provide the last two but do not have a ready signal.? You > also need to leave pin 1 unconnected this is a signal from the > controller to reset the diskette changed signal.? One of the drive the > YD-702D-6037 can also be altered by moving jumpers to get power from the > cable.? The other a YD-702D-6537D does not and it unfortunately seems to > be the more common drive.? I changed the drives so that ready is on Pin > 34, diskette change on pin 2 and density on pin 4, the same as the Sony > drive in the 9122C.? I did encounter one problem where if I tried to CAT > a diskette it would always report that the diskette was changed or > missing and I recall encountering this previously, it may be related to > how the diskette changed signal gets reset. On most "standard" 3.5" > drives the diskette changed signal gets reset as soon as the drive is > selected and receives a step pulse. On the Sony drives used in the 9122C > reset the diskette changed signal by a pulse on pin 1 from the > controller.? What I think is happening is when media is changed, the > controller thinks it does not have to move the head so the diskette > changed never gets reset so the controller continues to think the > diskette has been changed, I will do more testing to verify.? I thought > that booting with the drive empty provoked this but that is not the > case.? I can post details of the modifications to the drives if anyone > is interested. In cases like this, I fall back to my favorite--the Samsung SFD-321B: http://www.techtravels.org/wp-content/uploads/pefiles/SAMSUNG-SFD321B-070103.pdf Plenty of them in the wild and very configurable. In most of my cases, pin 34 is ready, pin 2 is Disk changed, DS0 is assumed and the spindle speed is 360 RPM. You can get them readily in black or white faceplates or even faceplate-less. FWIW, Chuck From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 18:54:50 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 19:54:50 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4fd95c33-6656-7574-901c-e9984ef8c2ae@gmail.com> On 11/21/2017 10:51 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: > Any interest in a Xerox 820 board that never had it's construction completed? > > It's amazing the stuff I find digging through my boxes of junk. > > bill Bill, I'm likely one of the few around that can populate it with period parts. Very tempting to add yet another project to my list. Allison From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Nov 22 19:17:42 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 17:17:42 -0800 Subject: Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: <4fd95c33-6656-7574-901c-e9984ef8c2ae@gmail.com> References: <4fd95c33-6656-7574-901c-e9984ef8c2ae@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wow that brings back some memories. There was about 10 of us who got together and I can't remember how or who got 10 of them. I think mine is still in storage somewhere. On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:54 PM, allison via cctech wrote: > On 11/21/2017 10:51 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: > > Any interest in a Xerox 820 board that never had it's construction > completed? > > > > It's amazing the stuff I find digging through my boxes of junk. > > > > bill > Bill, > > I'm likely one of the few around that can populate it with period parts. > Very tempting to add yet another project to my list. > > Allison > > From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 09:31:56 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 10:31:56 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: References: <4fd95c33-6656-7574-901c-e9984ef8c2ae@gmail.com> Message-ID: <196f1c6c-8155-7bdb-85dd-07cd61f79962@gmail.com> On 11/22/2017 08:51 PM, william degnan via cctech wrote: > On Nov 22, 2017 8:17 PM, "Pete Lancashire via cctech" > wrote: >> Wow that brings back some memories. There was about 10 of us who got >> together and I can't remember how or who got 10 of them. I think mine is >> still in storage somewhere. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:54 PM, allison via cctech > >> wrote: >> >>> On 11/21/2017 10:51 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: >>>> Any interest in a Xerox 820 board that never had it's construction >>> completed? >>>> It's amazing the stuff I find digging through my boxes of junk. >>>> >>>> bill >>> Bill, >>> >>> I'm likely one of the few around that can populate it with period parts. >>> Very tempting to add yet another project to my list. >>> >>> Allison >>> >>> > I have an 820-II but I also have a lot of 820 1/4 un software diskettes > (but no 5 1/4" drive. I can image and upload my disks if you'd like. I > have about 50 or so disks, various software. > > My 820-11 was new-old -stock when I got it whatever years ago, still have > the orig boxes and all. Takes 8in disks, has a working hard drive. I > think I have dBase and that kind of thing. Everyone note Bill wrote the original post.? For me an 820 would be another nice CP/M system addition.? From S100 based through AmproLB+ and with disks ranging from? 8", 5.25, and? 3.5".? Once I got the boot disk going supporting software is easy as several of the CP/M systems Have hard disks (AmproLB+, S100 box, SB180, Visual1050) and I have my Walnut Creek CD.? HOwever ther eis also Gaby's site and a few others on line. Allison > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Thu Nov 23 11:45:23 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 17:45:23 +0000 Subject: MXV21 with RX02 Message-ID: <87o9nskhxo.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Hi all, I was given an MTI MXV21 controller which is apparently compatible with the RX02 drive. The card has a 50 pin header, but the RX02 drive has a 40 pin ribbon cable. Does anyone know what am I missing here? I don't see anything about this in the manual: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/microTechnology/MXV21_floppyCtlr.pdf Thanks, Aaron. From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Nov 23 17:00:58 2017 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 23:00:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DS12887 pcb substitute with battery In-Reply-To: References: <16ia5tihh85q34m2de3g11ib.1485109250088@email.android.com> <8050eb1b-2a2c-2477-cbf5-4a9bdd518cce@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi Alan > What are you talking about? > > https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/maxim-integrated/DS12885/DS12885-ND/1196867 Thank you for your input, however a DS12885 is not a DS1285 (and neither a DS12887/A is a DS1287/A), and I did explain why I only consider an exact replacement suitable for my use. Maciej From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Thu Nov 23 17:25:58 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 23:25:58 +0000 Subject: MXV21 with RX02 In-Reply-To: <87o9nskhxo.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87o9nskhxo.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87lgiwk261.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Never mind. The manual is not particularly clear. It is for a Shugart drive, which can read/write to RX02 floppies, but does not work with an RX02 drive. Ah well! Thanks, Aaron. Aaron Jackson writes: > Hi all, > > I was given an MTI MXV21 controller which is apparently compatible with > the RX02 drive. The card has a 50 pin header, but the RX02 drive has a > 40 pin ribbon cable. Does anyone know what am I missing here? > > I don't see anything about this in the manual: > > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/microTechnology/MXV21_floppyCtlr.pdf > > Thanks, > Aaron. -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk From binarydinosaurs at icloud.com Thu Nov 23 17:32:12 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at icloud.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 23:32:12 +0000 Subject: TRS80 Model 4P CRT contrast fail In-Reply-To: <1f565d12-059d-4729-a063-e97e464c0a6e@sydex.com> References: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> <1f565d12-059d-4729-a063-e97e464c0a6e@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On 23 Nov 2017, at 20:43, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/23/2017 11:34 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > >> None of the pots on the video board deal with contrast so I?ve got it out on the bench to remove and test the capacitors. What else can I look at at the same time? Someone else has already mentioned the transistors Q101, Q102 and Q103 (on the yoke board). > > Have you tried replacing C101? What happens if you temporarily remove > TR101? > It tests ok at 4816nF with 1.4ohms ESR. I need to work out a way of getting everything connected together outside the case so I can do measurements. I?m hoping it?s something fairly easy to spot as high voltage even at low current is daunting. Cheers A From binarydinosaurs at icloud.com Thu Nov 23 19:07:03 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at icloud.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 01:07:03 +0000 Subject: TRS80 Model 4P CRT contrast fail In-Reply-To: <8BB928AE-42FD-4A47-86BE-794DEBAB3F66@shaw.ca> References: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> <8BB928AE-42FD-4A47-86BE-794DEBAB3F66@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <0682A5D1-C29D-4CBD-9202-82F57C5C9E55@icloud.com> > On 23 Nov 2017, at 21:18, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > On 2017-Nov-23, at 11:34 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> A random facebook post made me dig out my model 4P which has never worked as long as I?ve owned it, it?s always just sat on a shelf looking cute. >> >> Good old ASTEC PSU problem so I fixed that, reseated all the thankfully socketed chips and it burst into life. Sort of. I know it?s running because I can turn the brightness up to raster lines and see the pattern actually change when RESET is pressed. With contrast right up I can JUST see the boot logo appear while it reads the floppy. >> >> None of the pots on the video board deal with contrast so I?ve got it out on the bench to remove and test the capacitors. What else can I look at at the same time? Someone else has already mentioned the transistors Q101, Q102 and Q103 (on the yoke board). >> >> Screen pic: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/trs80Model4PScreen.jpg - you can JUST see the boot logo, I know it?s not screen burn because it does disappear on RESET and comes back again. >> >> Video board schematic: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/trs80Model4PVideoBoardSchematic.png > > > You might check the contrast control. > I can't find the actual schematic for the contrast control connections, but I 'm guessing the ends are connected across 12V (video board pins 5 & 1/4/10) and the wiper to video board pin 8. > The contrast control can be expected to take pin 8 somewhere + to get pixels fully on. You?re right with pin 8, tracing the circuit I can see why someone recommended I check Q101 and Q102 which look OK in my tester. The contrast control itself tests OK resistance wise, it goes from pretty much 0ohms to 610M. > Or get back to us with some voltage measurements at the BCE of TR101, 2 and 3, and at the external connections to the little board on the end of the CRT. > Note that there will (should) be several hundred volts on some of those CRT board connections. > > Does the "internal brightness" control on the video board have some effect? Yes, it works with the external control. It was the first thing I checked last night. Cheers A From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 19:51:05 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 20:51:05 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: References: <4fd95c33-6656-7574-901c-e9984ef8c2ae@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 22, 2017 8:17 PM, "Pete Lancashire via cctech" wrote: > > Wow that brings back some memories. There was about 10 of us who got > together and I can't remember how or who got 10 of them. I think mine is > still in storage somewhere. > > > > On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:54 PM, allison via cctech > wrote: > > > On 11/21/2017 10:51 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: > > > Any interest in a Xerox 820 board that never had it's construction > > completed? > > > > > > It's amazing the stuff I find digging through my boxes of junk. > > > > > > bill > > Bill, > > > > I'm likely one of the few around that can populate it with period parts. > > Very tempting to add yet another project to my list. > > > > Allison > > > > I have an 820-II but I also have a lot of 820 1/4 un software diskettes (but no 5 1/4" drive. I can image and upload my disks if you'd like. I have about 50 or so disks, various software. My 820-11 was new-old -stock when I got it whatever years ago, still have the orig boxes and all. Takes 8in disks, has a working hard drive. I think I have dBase and that kind of thing. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 09:47:54 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 10:47:54 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: <196f1c6c-8155-7bdb-85dd-07cd61f79962@gmail.com> References: <4fd95c33-6656-7574-901c-e9984ef8c2ae@gmail.com> <196f1c6c-8155-7bdb-85dd-07cd61f79962@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > > > I have an 820-II but I also have a lot of 820 1/4 un software diskettes > > (but no 5 1/4" drive. I can image and upload my disks if you'd like. I > > have about 50 or so disks, various software. > > > > My 820-11 was new-old -stock when I got it whatever years ago, still have > > the orig boxes and all. Takes 8in disks, has a working hard drive. I > > think I have dBase and that kind of thing. > > Everyone note Bill wrote the original post. > > For me an 820 would be another nice CP/M system addition. From S100 > based through > AmproLB+ and with disks ranging from 8", 5.25, and 3.5". Once I got > the boot disk going > supporting software is easy as several of the CP/M systems Have hard > disks (AmproLB+, S100 box, > SB180, Visual1050) and I have my Walnut Creek CD. HOwever ther eis also > Gaby's site and > a few others on line. > > > > Not sure if your reply was intended for me, but I was just saying that once the 820 is up and rolling, whomever does it, I have software that I can image and upload, just ask. I'll probably do it anyway and post on my site, I totally forgot I have 820 software (not 820-II). I have no 820 and I never bothered to move any of it to the 820-II. BIll From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Nov 24 02:41:18 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 00:41:18 -0800 Subject: TRS80 Model 4P CRT contrast fail In-Reply-To: <0682A5D1-C29D-4CBD-9202-82F57C5C9E55@icloud.com> References: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> <8BB928AE-42FD-4A47-86BE-794DEBAB3F66@shaw.ca> <0682A5D1-C29D-4CBD-9202-82F57C5C9E55@icloud.com> Message-ID: On 2017-Nov-23, at 5:07 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> On 23 Nov 2017, at 21:18, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> ... >> You might check the contrast control. >> I can't find the actual schematic for the contrast control connections, but I 'm guessing the ends are connected across 12V (video board pins 5 & 1/4/10) and the wiper to video board pin 8. >> The contrast control can be expected to take pin 8 somewhere + to get pixels fully on. > > You?re right with pin 8, tracing the circuit I can see why someone recommended I check Q101 and Q102 which look OK in my tester. > The contrast control itself tests OK resistance wise, it goes from pretty much 0ohms to 610M. 610M ? I hope that M is a typo. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Nov 24 10:22:24 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 12:22:24 -0400 Subject: PC diskette drives in a HP 9122C was WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <57eef8f8-be15-f182-a336-41e201f5dd0e@sydex.com> References: <6C6CD3BA-F85B-4D47-893E-1726A7A2D93B@nf6x.net> <15fbddf8cf0-c0c-1bac3@webjas-vab122.srv.aolmail.net> <71be6676-c829-33e3-4e48-b3ca4eedcefc@gmail.com> <57eef8f8-be15-f182-a336-41e201f5dd0e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1e2de0cf-62ba-7185-3a1c-8594ceed53a3@gmail.com> On 2017-11-24 2:02 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/23/2017 07:02 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: >> I have managed to get 2 PC type drives working in a 9122C they are two >> different versions of the YE Data YD-702D.? The important thing is the >> drive needs to provide a ready signal, diskette change and density. >> Most drives provide the last two but do not have a ready signal.? You >> also need to leave pin 1 unconnected this is a signal from the >> controller to reset the diskette changed signal.? One of the drive the >> YD-702D-6037 can also be altered by moving jumpers to get power from the >> cable.? The other a YD-702D-6537D does not and it unfortunately seems to >> be the more common drive.? I changed the drives so that ready is on Pin >> 34, diskette change on pin 2 and density on pin 4, the same as the Sony >> drive in the 9122C.? I did encounter one problem where if I tried to CAT >> a diskette it would always report that the diskette was changed or >> missing and I recall encountering this previously, it may be related to >> how the diskette changed signal gets reset. On most "standard" 3.5" >> drives the diskette changed signal gets reset as soon as the drive is >> selected and receives a step pulse. On the Sony drives used in the 9122C >> reset the diskette changed signal by a pulse on pin 1 from the >> controller.? What I think is happening is when media is changed, the >> controller thinks it does not have to move the head so the diskette >> changed never gets reset so the controller continues to think the >> diskette has been changed, I will do more testing to verify.? I thought >> that booting with the drive empty provoked this but that is not the >> case.? I can post details of the modifications to the drives if anyone >> is interested. > In cases like this, I fall back to my favorite--the Samsung SFD-321B: > > http://www.techtravels.org/wp-content/uploads/pefiles/SAMSUNG-SFD321B-070103.pdf > > Plenty of them in the wild and very configurable. In most of my cases, > pin 34 is ready, pin 2 is Disk changed, DS0 is assumed and the spindle > speed is 360 RPM. > > You can get them readily in black or white faceplates or even > faceplate-less. > > FWIW, > Chuck > My old Compaq system has one of these drives in it so I pulled out out to take a look and yes it should work however the signal cable connector is on the left looking at the back which is the opposite of where it is on the Sony and YE Data drives.? The signal cable inside the 9122C is pretty tightly folded and it would require modification if you wanted to put the drive in the right bay but should be ok in the left one. I also got a Panasonic JU-257A606P to work once I noticed the head stepper was unplugged.? This drive apparently has versions with switches on the board to change the configuration.? The drive I have does not have these switches but wire jumpers on the pad work just as well.? This drive also has the signal connector on the left. Forgot to mention that the 9122C uses select 0 for the first drive normally the left one, ? and select 3 for the second drive.? Most newer drives do not have a provision for using select 2 or 3 and indeed since many are aimed at the PC market they are hard wired for select 1.? I just remapped the select pin in my case connected pin 6 on the cable (select 3) to pin 12 on the drive (select 1).? Unless your drive can be set up for power on the signal cable like the original Sony drive, you will need some kind of an interposer between the cable and drive anyway, and it is easy to remap pins there. Paul. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Nov 24 11:23:15 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 17:23:15 +0000 Subject: TRS80 Model 4P CRT contrast fail In-Reply-To: References: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> <8BB928AE-42FD-4A47-86BE-794DEBAB3F66@shaw.ca> <0682A5D1-C29D-4CBD-9202-82F57C5C9E55@icloud.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 8:41 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2017-Nov-23, at 5:07 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >>> On 23 Nov 2017, at 21:18, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >>> ... >>> You might check the contrast control. >>> I can't find the actual schematic for the contrast control connections, but I 'm guessing the ends are connected across 12V (video board pins 5 & 1/4/10) and the wiper to video board pin 8. >>> The contrast control can be expected to take pin 8 somewhere + to get pixels fully on. >> >> You?re right with pin 8, tracing the circuit I can see why someone recommended I check Q101 and Q102 which look OK in my tester. >> The contrast control itself tests OK resistance wise, it goes from pretty much 0ohms to 610M. > > 610M ? > I hope that M is a typo. Indeed... I am working from the Model 4P service manual which I downloaded from archive.org I think. I can't find a schematic for the control panel, but the parts list says the 2 pots are 500 Ohms (contrast) and 500k brightness. One of diagrams at the start of the manual suggests the former has 3 wires (wired as a potentiometer), the latter 2 (wired as a variable resistor). >From the monitor PCB schematic, I think you're right. The contrast pot is wired with the ends to +12V out and ground, the wiper to DC Control (pin 8) The brightess pot is wired between pins 3 and 4 (ground) and forms part of the potential divider for the CRT first anode (g2 across the Pond :-)). Note that the brightness control might have quite a high voltage on it. I am assuming the fault is correctly described, a lack of contrast and not brightness. Can you get a bright raster if you turn the brightness control up? OK... Firstly, measure the voltage on pin 8 of the monitor PCB. Can you get it to swing from 0 to around 12V? Scope the video output from the CPU board (on pin 2 of the monitor PCB). Is it a good TTL level signal? Measure the voltage on pin A of the CRT base PCB. Expect around 60V here. Check that C101 is not shorted. You could try the machine with it removed to see what happens. Have you checked the TR103 on the CRT base PCB? -tony From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Nov 24 13:06:12 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 19:06:12 +0000 Subject: TRS80 Model 4P CRT contrast fail In-Reply-To: References: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> <8BB928AE-42FD-4A47-86BE-794DEBAB3F66@shaw.ca> <0682A5D1-C29D-4CBD-9202-82F57C5C9E55@icloud.com> Message-ID: <40028D32-2A5F-4D53-A9DC-95FEB0CF1E7E@gmail.com> > On 24 Nov 2017, at 17:23, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 8:41 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk > wrote: >> On 2017-Nov-23, at 5:07 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 23 Nov 2017, at 21:18, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >>>> ... >>>> You might check the contrast control. >>>> I can't find the actual schematic for the contrast control connections, but I 'm guessing the ends are connected across 12V (video board pins 5 & 1/4/10) and the wiper to video board pin 8. >>>> The contrast control can be expected to take pin 8 somewhere + to get pixels fully on. >>> >>> You?re right with pin 8, tracing the circuit I can see why someone recommended I check Q101 and Q102 which look OK in my tester. >>> The contrast control itself tests OK resistance wise, it goes from pretty much 0ohms to 610M. >> >> 610M ? >> I hope that M is a typo. > > Indeed... > > I am working from the Model 4P service manual which I downloaded from > archive.org I > think. I can't find a schematic for the control panel, but the parts > list says the 2 > pots are 500 Ohms (contrast) and 500k brightness. One of diagrams at > the start of > the manual suggests the former has 3 wires (wired as a potentiometer), > the latter > 2 (wired as a variable resistor). Yep, see my correction this morning. Just checked it again and it?s 0-641ohms. > I am assuming the fault is correctly described, a lack of contrast and not > brightness. Can you get a bright raster if you turn the brightness control up? Yep, that?s how I can *just* see the boot logo. > OK... Firstly, measure the voltage on pin 8 of the monitor PCB. Can you get > it to swing from 0 to around 12V? I?ll have to partially reassemble out of the case to test, but I can get to the other end of pin 8 with the control panel removed. > Scope the video output from the CPU board (on pin 2 of the monitor PCB). Is > it a good TTL level signal? Good point. > > Measure the voltage on pin A of the CRT base PCB. Expect around 60V here. > > Check that C101 is not shorted. You could try the machine with it removed > to see what happens. I removed it and tested it last night, looks OK. > Have you checked the TR103 on the CRT base PCB? Not yet, sleep was more important at that point :) I?ll report back tomorrow, cheers! ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards From binarydinosaurs at icloud.com Fri Nov 24 02:44:27 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at icloud.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 08:44:27 +0000 Subject: TRS80 Model 4P CRT contrast fail In-Reply-To: References: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> <8BB928AE-42FD-4A47-86BE-794DEBAB3F66@shaw.ca> <0682A5D1-C29D-4CBD-9202-82F57C5C9E55@icloud.com> Message-ID: > On 24 Nov 2017, at 08:41, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > On 2017-Nov-23, at 5:07 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >>> On 23 Nov 2017, at 21:18, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >>> ... >>> You might check the contrast control. >>> I can't find the actual schematic for the contrast control connections, but I 'm guessing the ends are connected across 12V (video board pins 5 & 1/4/10) and the wiper to video board pin 8. >>> The contrast control can be expected to take pin 8 somewhere + to get pixels fully on. >> >> You?re right with pin 8, tracing the circuit I can see why someone recommended I check Q101 and Q102 which look OK in my tester. >> The contrast control itself tests OK resistance wise, it goes from pretty much 0ohms to 610M. > > 610M ? > I hope that M is a typo. > Morning! It is, 610k or 0.6M :) Cheers A From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 10:05:39 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 16:05:39 +0000 Subject: TRS80 Model 4P CRT contrast fail In-Reply-To: References: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> <8BB928AE-42FD-4A47-86BE-794DEBAB3F66@shaw.ca> <0682A5D1-C29D-4CBD-9202-82F57C5C9E55@icloud.com> Message-ID: > On 24 Nov 2017, at 08:44, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > >> On 24 Nov 2017, at 08:41, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 2017-Nov-23, at 5:07 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 23 Nov 2017, at 21:18, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >>>> ... >>>> You might check the contrast control. >>>> I can't find the actual schematic for the contrast control connections, but I 'm guessing the ends are connected across 12V (video board pins 5 & 1/4/10) and the wiper to video board pin 8. >>>> The contrast control can be expected to take pin 8 somewhere + to get pixels fully on. >>> >>> You?re right with pin 8, tracing the circuit I can see why someone recommended I check Q101 and Q102 which look OK in my tester. >>> The contrast control itself tests OK resistance wise, it goes from pretty much 0ohms to 610M. >> >> 610M ? >> I hope that M is a typo. >> > > Morning! > > It is, 610k or 0.6M :) > Gah, ignore this. ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 11:25:47 2017 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 11:25:47 -0600 Subject: Western Peripherals docs scanned Message-ID: I've never even heard of this company. Three tape drive manuals scanned and posted, two that weren't on bitsavers and one that is a newer version: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/WesternPeripherals Enjoy. -j From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 11:28:08 2017 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 11:28:08 -0600 Subject: FFS: Kennedy 9100 Op/Maint Manual Message-ID: This one is already on Bitsavers but if you'd like a nice original copy with the fold-out schematics and color cover, I'll send it to you for the cost of shipping from 60070. The manual is in fairly good shape, bent a bit near the spine and the glue is starting to crack. Still an essential display accessory for your 9-track. -j From tsg at bonedaddy.net Sat Nov 25 13:04:55 2017 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 14:04:55 -0500 Subject: FFS: Kennedy 9100 Op/Maint Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, I'd like it if still available. Thank you! Todd On 11/25/2017 12:28 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > This one is already on Bitsavers but if you'd like a nice original > copy with the fold-out schematics and color cover, I'll send it to you > for the cost of shipping from 60070. > > The manual is in fairly good shape, bent a bit near the spine and the > glue is starting to crack. Still an essential display accessory for > your 9-track. > > -j From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 14:18:10 2017 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 14:18:10 -0600 Subject: FFS: Kennedy 9100 Op/Maint Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You got it. I'll reply privately with details. On Nov 25, 2017 13:05, "Todd Goodman via cctalk" wrote: > Hi Jason, > > I'd like it if still available. > > Thank you! > > Todd > > > On 11/25/2017 12:28 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > >> This one is already on Bitsavers but if you'd like a nice original >> copy with the fold-out schematics and color cover, I'll send it to you >> for the cost of shipping from 60070. >> >> The manual is in fairly good shape, bent a bit near the spine and the >> glue is starting to crack. Still an essential display accessory for >> your 9-track. >> >> -j >> > > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 17:02:04 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 23:02:04 +0000 Subject: TRS80 Model 4P CRT contrast fail In-Reply-To: References: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> <8BB928AE-42FD-4A47-86BE-794DEBAB3F66@shaw.ca> <0682A5D1-C29D-4CBD-9202-82F57C5C9E55@icloud.com> Message-ID: <826AD66C-DA0B-4EE2-AD34-AB542D076C2B@gmail.com> Evening! > OK... Firstly, measure the voltage on pin 8 of the monitor PCB. Can you get > it to swing from 0 to around 12V? Yes, it tops out at 11.82V. > Scope the video output from the CPU board (on pin 2 of the monitor PCB). Is > it a good TTL level signal? Yes. Given that it?s TTL and a 3-wire connection (composite plus H&V sync) I should be able to feed that into a PET monitor shouldn?t I? Wish I hadn?t given away my ?big? TRS80 Model 4 :/ > Measure the voltage on pin A of the CRT base PCB. Expect around 60V here 60.3V > Check that C101 is not shorted. You could try the machine with it removed > to see what happens. > > Have you checked the TR103 on the CRT base PCB? It tests as 2 diodes which is correct for a bipolar transistor I believe. Cheers Tony, A From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Nov 25 17:27:29 2017 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 23:27:29 +0000 Subject: Kodak Diconix 150plus - looking for info Message-ID: <92bfd377-7306-3fe6-7b22-75bbe621a2f3@philpem.me.uk> Hi folks, I just picked up a Kodak Diconix 150 Plus portable inkjet printer. No power supply or documentation, but it works fine. It appears to be a variant of HP's Thinkjet (it certainly uses the same cartridges) tweaked for portable use. Looking inside, it's full of Chinon ICs, and was apparently made in Japan (from the baseplate). This one needed some parts on the DC interface board resoldering, but after that it worked fine. Which brings me onto my question... Does anyone have any information on this printer? I'm mainly looking for a DIP switch table (annoyingly, it won't produce a config print - just a test page). I'd also love to find some details on the control codes, emulations and character sets it supports. Also - does anyone know what the material on the printhead capping station is, or if they're still available? It looks like a cardboard or blotting paper pad with a plastic backing card. This one is soaked in ink and looks like it could do with being replaced. I assume it's to stop the cartridge from drying out? I've put a HP 51604A (expired 2012!) cartridge in there, and it seems happy enough. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 00:15:11 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 06:15:11 +0000 Subject: TRS80 Model 4P CRT contrast fail In-Reply-To: <826AD66C-DA0B-4EE2-AD34-AB542D076C2B@gmail.com> References: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> <8BB928AE-42FD-4A47-86BE-794DEBAB3F66@shaw.ca> <0682A5D1-C29D-4CBD-9202-82F57C5C9E55@icloud.com> <826AD66C-DA0B-4EE2-AD34-AB542D076C2B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 11:02 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Evening! > >> OK... Firstly, measure the voltage on pin 8 of the monitor PCB. Can you get >> it to swing from 0 to around 12V? > > Yes, it tops out at 11.82V. Can you get it down to 0V? > >> Scope the video output from the CPU board (on pin 2 of the monitor PCB). Is >> it a good TTL level signal? > > Yes. Given that it?s TTL and a 3-wire connection (composite plus H&V sync) I You mean 'video', not 'composite'. Composite is an analogue signal with the video information and the syncs all combined. > should be able to feed that into a PET monitor shouldn?t I? Wish I hadn?t given > away my ?big? TRS80 Model 4 :/ I have no idea if the sync polarities are right, but you can try it with a Pet monitor. A TRS80 Model 3 has the same monitor as the Model 4 of course. (And I wish I could find a 4P over here....) > >> Measure the voltage on pin A of the CRT base PCB. Expect around 60V here > > 60.3V Fine. > >> Check that C101 is not shorted. You could try the machine with it removed >> to see what happens. What happens if C101 is removed? Also try running it with TR101 removed (or at least the emitter lead of that transistor disconnected). >> >> Have you checked the TR103 on the CRT base PCB? > > It tests as 2 diodes which is correct for a bipolar transistor I believe. Well, it's not open or shorted which is good. Doesn't mean it has any gain, but for the moment let's look elsewhere -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 00:17:38 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 06:17:38 +0000 Subject: Kodak Diconix 150plus - looking for info In-Reply-To: <92bfd377-7306-3fe6-7b22-75bbe621a2f3@philpem.me.uk> References: <92bfd377-7306-3fe6-7b22-75bbe621a2f3@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > Also - does anyone know what the material on the printhead capping > station is, or if they're still available? > It looks like a cardboard or blotting paper pad with a plastic backing > card. This one is soaked in ink and looks like it could do with being > replaced. I assume it's to stop the cartridge from drying out? In the Thinkjet (I have several and the service manual) it doesn't cap the printhead. It's just something for the printhead to spray onto when it is priming it. You got a new strip in the pack with the new print head cartridge. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Nov 26 06:32:11 2017 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 12:32:11 +0000 Subject: Kodak Diconix 150plus - looking for info In-Reply-To: References: <92bfd377-7306-3fe6-7b22-75bbe621a2f3@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 26/11/17 06:17, Tony Duell wrote: >> Also - does anyone know what the material on the printhead capping >> station is, or if they're still available? >> It looks like a cardboard or blotting paper pad with a plastic backing >> card. This one is soaked in ink and looks like it could do with being >> replaced. I assume it's to stop the cartridge from drying out? > > In the Thinkjet (I have several and the service manual) it doesn't > cap the printhead. It's just something for the printhead to spray > onto when it is priming it. > > You got a new strip in the pack with the new print head cartridge. No I didn't - the print head package only contained the cartridge (in a foil bag). There was a little piece of card attached to the cartridge sealing tape, but that's it. Hence why I asked about the blotters :) I wonder if the 51604A cartridges still need them. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 07:01:30 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 08:01:30 -0500 Subject: Kodak Diconix 150plus - looking for info In-Reply-To: References: <92bfd377-7306-3fe6-7b22-75bbe621a2f3@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: We used to provide every pharmaceutical field sales rep with a GRID Lite laptop and Diconix printer. Very reliable printer. If I still have any docs I will post them. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 08:15:32 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 14:15:32 +0000 Subject: Kodak Diconix 150plus - looking for info In-Reply-To: References: <92bfd377-7306-3fe6-7b22-75bbe621a2f3@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 12:32 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 26/11/17 06:17, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Also - does anyone know what the material on the printhead capping >>> station is, or if they're still available? >>> It looks like a cardboard or blotting paper pad with a plastic backing >>> card. This one is soaked in ink and looks like it could do with being >>> replaced. I assume it's to stop the cartridge from drying out? >> >> In the Thinkjet (I have several and the service manual) it doesn't >> cap the printhead. It's just something for the printhead to spray >> onto when it is priming it. >> >> You got a new strip in the pack with the new print head cartridge. > > No I didn't - the print head package only contained the cartridge (in a > foil bag). > > There was a little piece of card attached to the cartridge sealing tape, > but that's it. Hence why I asked about the blotters :) > > I wonder if the 51604A cartridges still need them. I can't remember the number of the cartridge I used, but it came in a little foil tub (a bit like the ones you get jam in at hotel breakfasts.). In the tub was the cartridge and the absorbing strip. I don't remember any sealing tape on the cartridge either. But since the 'squirt to prime the cartridge' is a printer function, and since these cartrdges are totally dumb (just the heating elements, no other electronics at all, no form of cartridge ID read out electrically) I would assme all cartridges would need the absorbing strip. -tony From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 09:02:20 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 15:02:20 +0000 Subject: TRS80 Model 4P CRT contrast fail In-Reply-To: References: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> <8BB928AE-42FD-4A47-86BE-794DEBAB3F66@shaw.ca> <0682A5D1-C29D-4CBD-9202-82F57C5C9E55@icloud.com> <826AD66C-DA0B-4EE2-AD34-AB542D076C2B@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On 26 Nov 2017, at 06:15, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 11:02 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk > wrote: >> Evening! >> >>> OK... Firstly, measure the voltage on pin 8 of the monitor PCB. Can you get >>> it to swing from 0 to around 12V? >> >> Yes, it tops out at 11.82V. > > Can you get it down to 0V? Yep, it runs from 0-11.82V. >> >>> Scope the video output from the CPU board (on pin 2 of the monitor PCB). Is >>> it a good TTL level >>> signal? >> >> Yes. Given that it?s TTL and a 3-wire connection (composite plus H&V sync) I > > You mean 'video', not 'composite'. Composite is an analogue signal with the > video information and the syncs all combined Indeed. My brain was saying ?video? but my fingers typed ?composite? :) >> should be able to feed that into a PET monitor shouldn?t I? Wish I hadn?t given >> away my ?big? TRS80 Model 4 :/ > > I have no idea if the sync polarities are right, but you can try it with a Pet > monitor. A TRS80 Model 3 has the same monitor as the Model 4 of course. I?ll make up an extension cable I think, got more PETs than I know what to do with. I used to have multiple Model 3s AND a Model 2 but they had to go when I moved to a smaller house back in 2010. > (And I wish I could find a 4P over here?.) Perhaps embarrassingly I can?t remember where mine came from but given I?ve had it since the early noughties that?s not surprising. It may even have been from a car boot sale. > > What happens if C101 is removed? Also try running it with TR101 > removed (or at least the emitter lead of that transistor disconnected). Nothing happens, in that the picture is the same as it is with both those components fitted. Cheers A From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 09:17:48 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 10:17:48 -0500 Subject: Kodak Diconix 150plus - looking for info In-Reply-To: <92bfd377-7306-3fe6-7b22-75bbe621a2f3@philpem.me.uk> References: <92bfd377-7306-3fe6-7b22-75bbe621a2f3@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 6:27 PM, Philip Pemberton via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi folks, > > I just picked up a Kodak Diconix 150 Plus portable inkjet printer. No > power supply or documentation, but it works fine. It appears to be a > variant of HP's Thinkjet (it certainly uses the same cartridges) tweaked > for portable use. Looking inside, it's full of Chinon ICs, and was > apparently made in Japan (from the baseplate). > > This one needed some parts on the DC interface board resoldering, but > after that it worked fine. > > Which brings me onto my question... Does anyone have any information on > this printer? > > I'm mainly looking for a DIP switch table (annoyingly, it won't produce > a config print - just a test page). I'd also love to find some details > on the control codes, emulations and character sets it supports. > > I checked and I have a Diconix 150 (not plus). I took photos of it should that be of use to you. I took a picture of the switches as they are on my unit, assuming this is the "normal operations" setting for a USA IBM emulating printer, if that's what you're looking for. There are 9 posts, 6 is up the rest are down. Mine is a parallel printer (you can tell by the port on the side not the dip switches) http://vintagecomputer.net/kodak/diconix-150/ Also IF and this is a conditional IF, the 150 plus is only "plus" in some other way other than switches here is the non-plus 150 switches' meanings: ftp://csiph.com/incoming/jim/TSSPRT/acroread/tssfact/tfsprt/kodak/di150.pdf (I posted a copy to my site as well) The last three switches pertain to the country. USA is all down. 6 up means IBM emulation. Thanks for the tip about the HP 51604A as a replacement cartridge. Not sure if it will work on the 150 non-plus but it's a clue. Bill From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 09:42:21 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 15:42:21 +0000 Subject: TRS80 Model 4P CRT contrast fail In-Reply-To: References: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> <8BB928AE-42FD-4A47-86BE-794DEBAB3F66@shaw.ca> <0682A5D1-C29D-4CBD-9202-82F57C5C9E55@icloud.com> <826AD66C-DA0B-4EE2-AD34-AB542D076C2B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> What happens if C101 is removed? Also try running it with TR101 >> removed (or at least the emitter lead of that transistor disconnected). > > Nothing happens, in that the picture is the same as it is with both those components fitted. That suggests the problem is not in the contrast control or the clamp transistor TR101. I would suspect TR102, TR103 and associated components. I don't have the schematic with me at the moment, but as I remember it you can look at the connection between TR102 (common emitter stage) and TR103 (common base stage on top of it) on one of the connections to the CRT base PCB. And of course the output of the video amplifier on the CRT cathode pin. It would be worth looking at the signals on those points with a 'scope, see what amplitude of video signal (not the 'standing' DC level). -tony From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Nov 26 13:31:49 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 11:31:49 -0800 Subject: TRS80 Model 4P CRT contrast fail In-Reply-To: References: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> <8BB928AE-42FD-4A47-86BE-794DEBAB3F66@shaw.ca> <0682A5D1-C29D-4CBD-9202-82F57C5C9E55@icloud.com> <826AD66C-DA0B-4EE2-AD34-AB542D076C2B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7BD40E9A-214E-4C0E-B435-4A76CBBF10CA@shaw.ca> On 2017-Nov-26, at 7:42 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk > wrote: > >>> What happens if C101 is removed? Also try running it with TR101 >>> removed (or at least the emitter lead of that transistor disconnected). >> >> Nothing happens, in that the picture is the same as it is with both those components fitted. > > That suggests the problem is not in the contrast control or the clamp > transistor TR101. > I would suspect TR102, TR103 and associated components. > > I don't have the schematic with me at the moment, but as I remember it > you can look > at the connection between TR102 (common emitter stage) and TR103 (common base > stage on top of it) on one of the connections to the CRT base PCB. And of course > the output of the video amplifier on the CRT cathode pin. It would be > worth looking > at the signals on those points with a 'scope, see what amplitude of > video signal (not > the 'standing' DC level). With a scope the objective would be to look at the levels when pixels are 'on' in the video signal. For white/on pixels, you need conductivity through TR102.E-C and TR103.E-C, to allow electrons to flow from GND, through those transistors, into the cathode of the CRT, and be emitted from the cathode towards the screen. For a white pixel then: - the video signal (and to a lesser level, the base of TR102) must be going positive, to turn TR102 on. - TR103 collector should be going 'lower' during the pixel period, the black level is approx. 60 V, the white level should drop well below that. You probably won't see much voltage variation at CRT PCB point H / TR102.C / TR103.E as it's just current-switching there with no collector pull-up. You could try connecting CRT PCB point H briefly to GND through a 150-300 ohm R, or short TR102.C-E (not 103). That should bring up a white screen. If it doesn't it would suggest the problem is around TR103. If it does the problem is likely around TR102. If your multimeter has an hfe mode, you could try pulling TR102 & 103 and see if they show gain. The monitor board schematic on page pdf.173 of https://amaus.net/static/S100/tandy/systems/model%204/Tandy%20Model%204P%20Service%20Manual.pdf presents DC voltage levels to be expected at the transistors and other points. That's for the green screen monitor, looks to be the same as the white-screen (pdf.172) except for some minor component value diffs. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Nov 26 14:59:53 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 15:59:53 -0500 Subject: what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? Message-ID: <13de41.10931e2e.474c8546@aol.com> what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? NEW Vintage 1971 NCR Acoustic Coupler Modem, NOS, Factory Boxed, C260-400 / F01 132411929563 on the bay not mine etc etc etc ed# From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 15:06:30 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 21:06:30 +0000 Subject: TRS80 Model 4P CRT contrast fail In-Reply-To: <7BD40E9A-214E-4C0E-B435-4A76CBBF10CA@shaw.ca> References: <97ECB59D-49BD-4821-A386-1EBD33BDD7F6@gmail.com> <8BB928AE-42FD-4A47-86BE-794DEBAB3F66@shaw.ca> <0682A5D1-C29D-4CBD-9202-82F57C5C9E55@icloud.com> <826AD66C-DA0B-4EE2-AD34-AB542D076C2B@gmail.com> <7BD40E9A-214E-4C0E-B435-4A76CBBF10CA@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <0A633B75-6D15-4D4B-A660-BA1D846DA8A6@gmail.com> > On 26 Nov 2017, at 19:31, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > > With a scope the objective would be to look at the levels when pixels are 'on' in the video signal. > For white/on pixels, you need conductivity through TR102.E-C and TR103.E-C, > to allow electrons to flow from GND, through those transistors, into the cathode of the CRT, > and be emitted from the cathode towards the screen. > > For a white pixel then: > - the video signal (and to a lesser level, the base of TR102) must be going positive, to turn TR102 on. > - TR103 collector should be going 'lower' during the pixel period, the black level is approx. 60 V, > the white level should drop well below that. > > You probably won't see much voltage variation at CRT PCB point H / TR102.C / TR103.E > as it's just current-switching there with no collector pull-up. > > You could try connecting CRT PCB point H briefly to GND through a 150-300 ohm R, or short TR102.C-E (not 103). > That should bring up a white screen. > If it doesn't it would suggest the problem is around TR103. > If it does the problem is likely around TR102. I replied to this thread a while back but managed to only reply to Tony and not the list, oops! Rather than using my multi-transistor tester for TR103 I tested it with a DMM in diode mode and it?s almost a dead short from B-E, I get the same reading in both directions so I?m going to order a new one in a bit. > If your multimeter has an hfe mode, you could try pulling TR102 & 103 and see if they show gain. It does but the legs on TR103 weren?t long enough to reach the contacts in the BCE holes which is why I went for diode mode instead :) Thanks for the explanation, if the new transistor doesn?t make a difference then I know where else I can look. Cheers! ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 26 15:27:57 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 13:27:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? In-Reply-To: <13de41.10931e2e.474c8546@aol.com> References: <13de41.10931e2e.474c8546@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Nov 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: > what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? > NEW Vintage 1971 NCR Acoustic Coupler Modem, NOS, Factory Boxed, C260-400 > / F01 132411929563 on the bay > not mine etc etc etc "What did it go to?" It connected a terminal, or computer in DTE mode, to the phone line. It looks like a fairly ordinary modem for its time. The acoustic coupler connected to the box, and the terminal/Computer-DTE connected to the DB25. It might be Bell 103 compatible, but in those days, not necessarily. The other cable looks like direct connect to phone line, without acoustic coupling. (cf. Carterfone V Western Electric 1968?) No idea what the extra plug (loopback?) was for. A few years later, copanies such as Anderson-Jacobson and Livermore Data Systems stared making more compact modems with acoustic coupler on the same box. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 26 15:36:48 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 13:36:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? In-Reply-To: References: <13de41.10931e2e.474c8546@aol.com> Message-ID: The NCR 260 (first part of the part number) was a KSR portable thermal printing terminal. Somewhat similar to the Silent 700. But, the NCR 260 had an integrated modem with acoustic coupler From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Nov 26 16:09:17 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 17:09:17 -0500 Subject: what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? Message-ID: <13e599.3b38dbf4.474c958b@aol.com> does the 71 sate seem early? In a message dated 11/26/2017 2:38:17 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: The NCR 260 (first part of the part number) was a KSR portable thermal printing terminal. Somewhat similar to the Silent 700. But, the NCR 260 had an integrated modem with acoustic coupler From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 26 16:33:58 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 14:33:58 -0800 Subject: what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? In-Reply-To: <13e599.3b38dbf4.474c958b@aol.com> References: <13e599.3b38dbf4.474c958b@aol.com> Message-ID: <0f6e3d6e-c56e-4143-3843-89f0286ed971@sydex.com> On 11/26/2017 02:09 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > does the 71 sate seem early? Looking at the modem, perhaps a little too early, judging from its size. Patent date perhaps? But 300 baud acoustic coupler modems date into the 1960s. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 26 16:38:31 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 14:38:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? In-Reply-To: <13e599.3b38dbf4.474c958b@aol.com> References: <13e599.3b38dbf4.474c958b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Nov 2017, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > does the 71 sate seem early? No, a 1971 date does not seem too early. The price seems steep, even for a "relatively" early modem. Bell 103 (300bps) dates from 1962. The Bell 101 (110 baud) was 1958. SCROTUS "Carterfone" was 1968 (ruling permitting direct connect) Bell 212A (1200bps) came out in 1976. The Livermore Data Systems modems that I sold off were from about 1964? 1970-1972, when I was working at Goddard Space Flight Center (Bldg 26, "National Space Sciences Data Center"), we used a time-sharing system for APL. APL type ball on Selectric terminal. Yes, 1971 is prior to most mass-marketed "personal computers" (1978?: Apple, PET, TRS80). But there were teminals. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 26 16:41:45 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 14:41:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? In-Reply-To: <0f6e3d6e-c56e-4143-3843-89f0286ed971@sydex.com> References: <13e599.3b38dbf4.474c958b@aol.com> <0f6e3d6e-c56e-4143-3843-89f0286ed971@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> does the 71 sate seem early? On Sun, 26 Nov 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Looking at the modem, perhaps a little too early, judging from its size. > Patent date perhaps? 1971 is the copyright date on the "Basic Concepts Manual" with it. From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sun Nov 26 16:59:21 2017 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 14:59:21 -0800 Subject: VCF Pacific Northwest (Feb 2018): Last call for Exhibitors and Speakers Message-ID: Where: Living Computers: Museums+Labs (Seattle, WA, USA) When: February 10th and 11th, 2018 Registration deadline: December 10th, 2017 (About 2 weeks left) We have about 15 registered exhibitors now. We are looking for a few more to fill things out and to ensure that if somebody drops out that the show doesn't look too thin. The exhibits span a wide range so it won't be a pure 8 bit gaming or a DEC heavy iron show. If you are procrastinating about being an exhibitor then it is time to register ... If I can answer questions to help you decide then email me. This is our first time in Seattle; the bar is low so don't be too worried about having the perfect exhibit. We are still looking for speakers too; the floor is pretty open. If you did something cool during your career or just want to share aspects of the hobby with others, this is a great place to do it. (I especially enjoyed Lyle's talk on repair and restoration at VCF West.) Interested or know somebody who is? Check out at http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-pacific-northwest/ . Please email me directly if you have questions or need encouragement. Regards, Mike Brutman michael at vcfed.org From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Sun Nov 26 21:26:16 2017 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 03:26:16 +0000 Subject: Kodak Diconix 150plus - looking for info Message-ID: >Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 23:27:29 +0000 >From: Philip Pemberton > >Hi folks, > >I just picked up a Kodak Diconix 150 Plus portable inkjet printer. No >power supply or documentation, but it works fine. >Which brings me onto my question... Does anyone have any information on >this printer? I have a Diconix 180si, with User Manual and Technical Reference manual. >I'm mainly looking for a DIP switch table (annoyingly, it won't produce >a config print - just a test page). I'd also love to find some details >on the control codes, emulations and character sets it supports. The 180si does not use DIP switches, so I can't help with that. The Tech Ref manual does have Command Code and Character Set info, however. The whole manual is a bit over 100 pages. I can scan it if you are interested. >Also - does anyone know what the material on the printhead capping >station is, or if they're still available? >It looks like a cardboard or blotting paper pad with a plastic backing >card. This one is soaked in ink and looks like it could do with being >replaced. I assume it's to stop the cartridge from drying out? The 180si uses one also. It "catches a spray of ink which the printer uses to clear the printhead cartridge before printing." A new pad is included in each printhead cartridge container. >I've put a HP 51604A (expired 2012!) cartridge in there, and it seems >happy enough. >Thanks, >-- >Phil. >classiccmp at philpem.me.uk >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ Bob From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Nov 27 04:00:49 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 05:00:49 -0500 Subject: what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? Message-ID: <2db961.2b5ef7c4.474d3c50@aol.com> thanks for dates. yes that all makes sense. some how my mind slipped a decade. I a looking for a GE Diginet tdm-114 acoustic coupler. 2 reasons, GE computer related but also my first acoustic coupler I had with an ASR-35 teletype I am also looking for the top mental plate that covers an ASR-35 punch also. ( drop me a line off list if you have either you want to sell/trade/?) thanks ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 11/26/2017 3:38:36 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On Sun, 26 Nov 2017, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > does the 71 sate seem early? No, a 1971 date does not seem too early. The price seems steep, even for a "relatively" early modem. Bell 103 (300bps) dates from 1962. The Bell 101 (110 baud) was 1958. SCROTUS "Carterfone" was 1968 (ruling permitting direct connect) Bell 212A (1200bps) came out in 1976. The Livermore Data Systems modems that I sold off were from about 1964? 1970-1972, when I was working at Goddard Space Flight Center (Bldg 26, "National Space Sciences Data Center"), we used a time-sharing system for APL. APL type ball on Selectric terminal. Yes, 1971 is prior to most mass-marketed "personal computers" (1978?: Apple, PET, TRS80). But there were teminals. From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Mon Nov 27 13:15:58 2017 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:15:58 -0800 Subject: what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A1C646E.2020703@flying-disk.com> COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? > > NEW Vintage 1971 NCR Acoustic Coupler Modem, NOS, Factory Boxed, C260-400 > / F01 132411929563 on the bay It is a Bell 103A compatible modem (110 or 300 baud) used with the NCR 260 series of thermal printing terminals. The 260 came in several variants: -1 (receive only), -2 (keyboard send/receive), -6 (Automatic (cassette tape) send/receive). I worked with them at NCR in 1973 and 74. I still have the manuals, and just a few days ago scanned them for Bitsavers. If you need a copy I can send you the raw TIFF files (one per page). Both the -400 and -500 were EIA I/O to the terminal. The C260-400 connected to a Bell System DAA (Data Access Arrangement), while the C260-500 was an acoustic coupler. The acoustic coupler had a solenoid that would would automatically raise and lower the handset on the telephone! Back in those days you could not connect anything directly to the telephone lines -- you had to use the telco-supplied DAA (kaching!) or an acoustic coupler. I don't know if this modem can be connected directly to a phone line without a DAA. I think the asking price is totally unrealistic unless you are a rabid collector of NCR gear. Alan Frisbie From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Nov 27 13:45:26 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 14:45:26 -0500 Subject: what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? Message-ID: <2e0f13.14e9d314.474dc556@aol.com> OK! Shades of the crown answering machine we have in the museum with the handset lifter! Yea the price is defiantly a barrier on this except for Paul Allen I suppose. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 11/27/2017 12:16:16 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? > > NEW Vintage 1971 NCR Acoustic Coupler Modem, NOS, Factory Boxed, C260-400 > / F01 132411929563 on the bay It is a Bell 103A compatible modem (110 or 300 baud) used with the NCR 260 series of thermal printing terminals. The 260 came in several variants: -1 (receive only), -2 (keyboard send/receive), -6 (Automatic (cassette tape) send/receive). I worked with them at NCR in 1973 and 74. I still have the manuals, and just a few days ago scanned them for Bitsavers. If you need a copy I can send you the raw TIFF files (one per page). Both the -400 and -500 were EIA I/O to the terminal. The C260-400 connected to a Bell System DAA (Data Access Arrangement), while the C260-500 was an acoustic coupler. The acoustic coupler had a solenoid that would would automatically raise and lower the handset on the telephone! Back in those days you could not connect anything directly to the telephone lines -- you had to use the telco-supplied DAA (kaching!) or an acoustic coupler. I don't know if this modem can be connected directly to a phone line without a DAA. I think the asking price is totally unrealistic unless you are a rabid collector of NCR gear. Alan Frisbie From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 27 13:54:31 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:54:31 -0800 Subject: what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? In-Reply-To: <5A1C646E.2020703@flying-disk.com> References: <5A1C646E.2020703@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: <9814972c-a5a7-a9d9-0a19-001b4bb7fa68@sydex.com> On 11/27/2017 11:15 AM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > Back in those days you could not connect anything directly to the telephone > lines -- you had to use the telco-supplied DAA (kaching!) or an acoustic > coupler.?? I don't know if this modem can be connected directly to a phone > line without a DAA. > > I think the asking price is totally unrealistic unless you are a rabid > collector of NCR gear. This particular unit seems to have a Mickey-mouse type of coupler--receiver and transmitter connected by a cord. I never did figure out how one was supposed to use this with, say, a Trimline phone. I guess the answer was "you don't"). We've come a long way since the Carterfone decision. I do recall agonizing about the rental (you couldn't buy one from Ma Bell) charge for a DAA. The local PacBell office also wanted to charge for a "business" line if such an item was installed--much higher monthly charge than a residential line. I suppose that DAA's are still around for connection of non-licensed gear to landlines. Those should rapidly be disappearing, with the decline of the copper telco connection. --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Nov 27 13:56:32 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 12:56:32 -0700 Subject: what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? In-Reply-To: <9814972c-a5a7-a9d9-0a19-001b4bb7fa68@sydex.com> References: <5A1C646E.2020703@flying-disk.com> <9814972c-a5a7-a9d9-0a19-001b4bb7fa68@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 12:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 11/27/2017 11:15 AM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > > > Back in those days you could not connect anything directly to the > telephone > > lines -- you had to use the telco-supplied DAA (kaching!) or an acoustic > > coupler. I don't know if this modem can be connected directly to a > phone > > line without a DAA. > > > > I think the asking price is totally unrealistic unless you are a rabid > > collector of NCR gear. > > This particular unit seems to have a Mickey-mouse type of > coupler--receiver and transmitter connected by a cord. I never did > figure out how one was supposed to use this with, say, a Trimline phone. > I guess the answer was "you don't"). > You don't. Acoustic Coupled modems were always the standard handset or nothing. Warner From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Nov 27 15:46:50 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:46:50 -0800 Subject: Livermore Data Systems / was Re: what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? In-Reply-To: References: <13e599.3b38dbf4.474c958b@aol.com> Message-ID: On 2017-Nov-26, at 2:38 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 26 Nov 2017, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: >> does the 71 sate seem early? > > No, a 1971 date does not seem too early. > > The price seems steep, even for a "relatively" early modem. > > Bell 103 (300bps) dates from 1962. > The Bell 101 (110 baud) was 1958. > > SCROTUS "Carterfone" was 1968 (ruling permitting direct connect) > > Bell 212A (1200bps) came out in 1976. > > The Livermore Data Systems modems that I sold off were from about 1964? > ... Were those the Livermore Data Systems modems in a wood box you were selling? Did you have anything to ascertain the 1964 date for LDS, or were you getting that date from the stuff on the web? There's stuff reffed all over the web and youtube of some guy stating the LDS Model A (in the dovetailed wood box) as 1964 and maybe 1963, his unit is serial # 279. http://www.phreakmonkey.com/2009/05/1964-livermore-data-systems-model-modem_31.html etc. He seems to be basing the claim on an LDS Model B unit (once at UCDavis, now at CHM) http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102630200 which claims circa 1965, and 'thus the model A should be at least a year earlier'. I have an LDS Model A, serial # 858, the dates codes on the components are 1969 to 1970. I'm a little skeptical the model was being made as early as 1964. I wish the guy would, or knew to, simply open the unit and look at the date codes rather than guessing. Someone in some comments suggests LDS wasn't building these until 1968, which strikes me as more plausible. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 27 16:26:03 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 14:26:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Livermore Data Systems / was Re: what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? In-Reply-To: References: <13e599.3b38dbf4.474c958b@aol.com> Message-ID: >> The Livermore Data Systems modems that I sold off were from about 1964? On Mon, 27 Nov 2017, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > Were those the Livermore Data Systems modems in a wood box you were selling? > Did you have anything to ascertain the 1964 date for LDS, or were you > getting that date from the stuff on the web? . . . > Someone in some comments suggests LDS wasn't building these until 1968, > which strikes me as more plausible. Thank you! That is why I put a question mark after 1964. I was basing it on nothing more than verbal comment by the guy that I got them from. And, while I had them, I hadn't had any reason to particularly care. 1968 does, indeed, seem more plausible. It still serves to illustrate that 1971 is NOT too early for that NCR. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From shumaker at att.net Mon Nov 27 19:17:24 2017 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 17:17:24 -0800 Subject: Livermore Data Systems / was Re: what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? In-Reply-To: References: <13e599.3b38dbf4.474c958b@aol.com> Message-ID: <8a351c68-d3e9-240d-5fbb-2ef12c28608d@att.net> On 11/27/2017 2:26 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> The Livermore Data Systems modems that I sold off were from about 1964? > > On Mon, 27 Nov 2017, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> Were those the Livermore Data Systems modems in a wood box you were >> selling? >> Did you have anything to ascertain the 1964 date for LDS, or were you >> getting that date from the stuff on the web? > . . . >> Someone in some comments suggests LDS wasn't building these until >> 1968, which strikes me as more plausible. > > Thank you! > > That is why I put a question mark after 1964. > I was basing it on nothing more than verbal comment by the guy that I > got them from.?? And, while I had them, I hadn't had any reason to > particularly care. > > 1968 does, indeed, seem more plausible. > > > It still serves to illustrate that 1971 is NOT too early for that NCR. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com > From shumaker at att.net Mon Nov 27 19:25:09 2017 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 17:25:09 -0800 Subject: Livermore Data Systems / was Re: what is this NCR modem? what did it go to? In-Reply-To: References: <13e599.3b38dbf4.474c958b@aol.com> Message-ID: <86eefef9-2cd0-7070-5f03-ee54e7832b15@att.net> On 11/27/2017 2:26 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> The Livermore Data Systems modems that I sold off were from about 1964? > > On Mon, 27 Nov 2017, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> Were those the Livermore Data Systems modems in a wood box you were >> selling? >> Did you have anything to ascertain the 1964 date for LDS, or were you >> getting that date from the stuff on the web? > . . . >> Someone in some comments suggests LDS wasn't building these until >> 1968, which strikes me as more plausible. > > Thank you! > > That is why I put a question mark after 1964. > I was basing it on nothing more than verbal comment by the guy that I > got them from.?? And, while I had them, I hadn't had any reason to > particularly care. > > 1968 does, indeed, seem more plausible. > > > It still serves to illustrate that 1971 is NOT too early for that NCR. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com > I can add another data point to the discussion: My LDS Model A with SN 0491 has two TI transistors both with data code "6914" And for what it's worth, if you have one and have never opened it up, go do so right now!??? The three small circuit boards have a 3"x4" piece of the infamous black foam to pad the cards when inserted in the case.? Of course the foam is mostly gone now except for where it wraps around the cards and corrodes the components that it touches! Steve From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 28 09:54:50 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 10:54:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Microassembler, etc, available Message-ID: <20171128155450.B833118C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, as part of the work on getting our QSIC card to support SD cards for storage, Dave and I have produced some tools that people might find useful. Dave's original concept was to do SD support with a state machine. However, the SD protocol turned out to be a little too complex for that, so we decided to create a bespoke micro-engine (hereinafter 'uengine' - I use 'u' in place of the lower-case 'mu' all the time) to handle it. This turned out to be a good call; Dave cranked out a uengine in Verilog (which was incredibly quick to produce), and I whipped up (literally - the first version was done overnight) a uassembler. The latter has since been much improved; the current version reads the entire definition of the uengine from a configuration file, and thus should be usable on any umachine. So, if you need a uassembler for some project, here's one. (And if you need something it can't do, let me know, and I can add stuff; e.g. it doesn't currently support the '+' operator in literals, only '|', but it would be fairly simple to add '+' if anyone had a use for it.) The source is here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/tools/uas.c (and no, I don't have the energy to learn how to use sourceforge or github to distribute it, so don't bug me about it). I wrote it under Cygwin on Windows, but Dave compiled and runs it on Linux as-is, so it's pretty portable. The current output format is hex that Dave massages into 'ROM' contents on the FPGA in some fashion I don't know the details of, but if anyone needs something different, again, I'd be happy to add whatever's needed. The source syntax supported is documented in comments at the start of the uassembler source; it's pretty simple, here's a brief synopsis (see the file for more detail). ucode is a collection of lines, one per micro-instruction. The syntax for individual lines is: {