From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon May  1 07:42:26 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 08:42:26 -0400
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <DAD529C1-683B-46DF-A07F-B039DACFE78E@comcast.net>


> On May 1, 2017, at 12:38 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past weekend
> from where it was currently stored to my shop.  Pictures are here: 
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
> 
> As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for this purpose.
> Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop.  Some early tasks will be:
>   * I have to verify that I have everything.  Even if I missed some items, they won?t be
>     scrapped.  I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify that I didn?t
>     leave anything behind.  I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
>  * I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power to run the
>    peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase coming
>    into my shop.

What do they use 3-phase for?  Motors?  I remember disk drives with 3 phase motors.  If so, a VFD is a good low cost solution since those are specifically designed for driving motors.

	paul



From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Mon May  1 08:59:30 2017
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 09:59:30 -0400
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAgN_TSxH1uA_UioKgKB+VrBenAXG8C=mKVT1-MNOArcXA@mail.gmail.com>

Beautiful.

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On May 1, 2017 12:38 AM, "Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk" <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this
> past weekend
> from where it was currently stored to my shop.  Pictures are here:
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K <https://www.flickr.com/gp/
> 150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
>
> As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had
> rented for this purpose.
> Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop.  Some early tasks
> will be:
>    * I have to verify that I have everything.  Even if I missed some
> items, they won?t be
>      scrapped.  I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and
> verify that I didn?t
>      leave anything behind.  I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
>   * I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power
> to run the
>     peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single
> phase coming
>     into my shop.
>
> Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet.  ;-)
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>

From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon May  1 10:39:54 2017
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 01 May 2017 10:39:54 -0500
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <590756CA.9000305@pico-systems.com>

On 04/30/2017 11:38 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
> Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past weekend
> from where it was currently stored to my shop.  Pictures are here:
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
>
>
WOW, looking at those photos gave me goosebumps!

Hmm, depends what actually needs the 3-phase power.  There 
are home-made and commercial rotary phase converters.  Great 
for motors, but you need to work on them carefully to make 
sure they are balanced well enough for electronic loads.  
The motor loads help balance it better, but the electronic 
loads cause the generated leg to sag.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon May  1 10:46:04 2017
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 01 May 2017 10:46:04 -0500
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <DAD529C1-683B-46DF-A07F-B039DACFE78E@comcast.net>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
 <DAD529C1-683B-46DF-A07F-B039DACFE78E@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5907583C.7040406@pico-systems.com>

On 05/01/2017 07:42 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> On May 1, 2017, at 12:38 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past weekend
>> from where it was currently stored to my shop.  Pictures are here:
>> https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
>>
>> As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for this purpose.
>> Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop.  Some early tasks will be:
>>    * I have to verify that I have everything.  Even if I missed some items, they won?t be
>>      scrapped.  I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify that I didn?t
>>      leave anything behind.  I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
>>   * I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power to run the
>>     peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase coming
>>     into my shop.
> What do they use 3-phase for?  Motors?  I remember disk drives with 3 phase motors.  If so, a VFD is a good low cost solution since those are specifically designed for driving motors.
>
>
Some of the larger load devices may use actual 3-phase power 
supplies.  So, the 3-phase power either runs through a 
3-phase transformer, or is rectified and run through a 
switching converter to make the DC power.  These could be 
pretty hard to reconfigure to run off single-phase power.  
(The IBM 360's use a "converter-inverter" that rectified the 
3-phase 208V power to 300 V DC, and then inverted it to 
regulated 120 V 2.5KHz single-phase AC for the various power 
supplies.)  Not sure if any of Guy's equipment use a similar 
scheme.  The 2821 unit record control does use a LOT of 
power to run the 1403 printer.

Jon


From kirkbdavis at me.com  Mon May  1 11:43:51 2017
From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis)
Date: Mon, 01 May 2017 09:43:51 -0700
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <0136472F-52C0-493D-9E6A-273024B1515A@me.com>

Sweet!

> On Apr 30, 2017, at 9:38 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past weekend
> from where it was currently stored to my shop.  Pictures are here: 
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
> 
> As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for this purpose.
> Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop.  Some early tasks will be:
>   * I have to verify that I have everything.  Even if I missed some items, they won?t be
>     scrapped.  I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify that I didn?t
>     leave anything behind.  I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
>  * I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power to run the
>    peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase coming
>    into my shop.
> 
> Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet.  ;-)
> 
> TTFN - Guy
> 


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon May  1 11:48:52 2017
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 17:48:52 +0100
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <01f001d2c29a$d097d810$71c78830$@outlook.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy
> Sotomayor Jr via cctalk
> Sent: 01 May 2017 05:39
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
> 
> Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past
> weekend from where it was currently stored to my shop.  Pictures are here:
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K
> <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
> 
> As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for
> this purpose.
> Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop.  Some early tasks will
> be:
>    * I have to verify that I have everything.  Even if I missed some items, they
> won?t be
>      scrapped.  I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify
> that I didn?t
>      leave anything behind.  I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
>   * I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power
> to run the
>     peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase
> coming
>     into my shop.
> 
> Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet.  ;-)
> 

Yes I remember having a gentle discussion with the University of Salford electricians, who wanted to know why I wanted 2 x 100amp feeds for the room into which the 4361 (I think it was a 4361, might have been a 4331 or 4341) was placed. I don't think we ever loaded them at 100amps but that was what IBM required. One was for the AirCon and the other for the CPU. If I remember properly those disks are the truculent ones. Assuming you have AirCon they need to sit for several hours to acclimatise. 


> TTFN - Guy

Dave




From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Mon May  1 11:53:51 2017
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 16:53:51 +0000
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <01f001d2c29a$d097d810$71c78830$@outlook.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>,
 <01f001d2c29a$d097d810$71c78830$@outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB16002DF458E3ABCA02C60A29A3140@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Aren't these water cooled?

I seem to remember hoses.

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 9:48:52 AM
To: 'Guy Sotomayor Jr'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: RE: IBM 4331 Mainframe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy
> Sotomayor Jr via cctalk
> Sent: 01 May 2017 05:39
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
>
> Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past
> weekend from where it was currently stored to my shop.  Pictures are here:
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K
> <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
>
> As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for
> this purpose.
> Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop.  Some early tasks will
> be:
>    * I have to verify that I have everything.  Even if I missed some items, they
> won?t be
>      scrapped.  I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify
> that I didn?t
>      leave anything behind.  I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
>   * I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power
> to run the
>     peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase
> coming
>     into my shop.
>
> Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet.  ;-)
>

Yes I remember having a gentle discussion with the University of Salford electricians, who wanted to know why I wanted 2 x 100amp feeds for the room into which the 4361 (I think it was a 4361, might have been a 4331 or 4341) was placed. I don't think we ever loaded them at 100amps but that was what IBM required. One was for the AirCon and the other for the CPU. If I remember properly those disks are the truculent ones. Assuming you have AirCon they need to sit for several hours to acclimatise.


> TTFN - Guy

Dave




From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon May  1 11:57:07 2017
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 09:57:07 -0700
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR14MB16002DF458E3ABCA02C60A29A3140@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
 <01f001d2c29a$d097d810$71c78830$@outlook.com>
 <MWHPR14MB16002DF458E3ABCA02C60A29A3140@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <DCCD13D2-55F2-431B-A4CA-94FFF57F2FCF@shiresoft.com>


> On May 1, 2017, at 9:53 AM, dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Aren't these water cooled?
> 
> I seem to remember hoses.

No this is all air cooled.

TTFN - Guy
> 
> ________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 9:48:52 AM
> To: 'Guy Sotomayor Jr'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: RE: IBM 4331 Mainframe
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy
>> Sotomayor Jr via cctalk
>> Sent: 01 May 2017 05:39
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
>> 
>> Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past
>> weekend from where it was currently stored to my shop.  Pictures are here:
>> https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K
>> <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
>> 
>> As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for
>> this purpose.
>> Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop.  Some early tasks will
>> be:
>>   * I have to verify that I have everything.  Even if I missed some items, they
>> won?t be
>>     scrapped.  I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify
>> that I didn?t
>>     leave anything behind.  I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
>>  * I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power
>> to run the
>>    peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase
>> coming
>>    into my shop.
>> 
>> Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet.  ;-)
>> 
> 
> Yes I remember having a gentle discussion with the University of Salford electricians, who wanted to know why I wanted 2 x 100amp feeds for the room into which the 4361 (I think it was a 4361, might have been a 4331 or 4341) was placed. I don't think we ever loaded them at 100amps but that was what IBM required. One was for the AirCon and the other for the CPU. If I remember properly those disks are the truculent ones. Assuming you have AirCon they need to sit for several hours to acclimatise.
> 
> 
>> TTFN - Guy
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 


From brain at jbrain.com  Mon May  1 12:48:35 2017
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 12:48:35 -0500
Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ
 area)
In-Reply-To: <289F2D33-EC14-4F79-B3AE-28B7826E47CC@pski.net>
References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com>
 <B7F88A33-238C-4BAD-8C55-35F79C8FADA7@pski.net>
 <289F2D33-EC14-4F79-B3AE-28B7826E47CC@pski.net>
Message-ID: <aa5d1208-2229-b361-69d0-2459d9e7afd2@jbrain.com>

On 4/24/2017 6:55 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote:
>
>> On Apr 24, 2017, at 7:37 AM, Peter Cetinski <pete at pski.net 
>> <mailto:pete at pski.net>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Just  picked up a TRS-80 Model 12, and it boot to the "insert disk
>>> prompt" ...  Yay!
>>>
>>> Jim
>>
>>
>> You can find the MC68000 board set (you?ll need a CPU board and at 
>> least one memory board) on eBay quite often.  In most cases, it will 
>> be the Model 16 6Mhz board which will allow you to run TRS-XENIX 1.x. 
>>  If you?re lucky, you?ll find the Model 6000 8Mhz board which will 
>> allow you to run Xenix 3.2.
I am assuming no one on list has a spare set of boards they are looking 
to sell? :-)

Jim


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Mon May  1 12:49:21 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 17:49:21 +0000
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <DCCD13D2-55F2-431B-A4CA-94FFF57F2FCF@shiresoft.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
 <01f001d2c29a$d097d810$71c78830$@outlook.com>
 <MWHPR14MB16002DF458E3ABCA02C60A29A3140@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>,
 <DCCD13D2-55F2-431B-A4CA-94FFF57F2FCF@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB13021BEA798F60AA381D6803ED140@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


Just hope you don't have a head crash.  Had one when I was at Ft.
Ben Harrison (a long time ago, when the 4341 was just going into
production. We had one of the first!) and it sounded like the building
was coming down.  Hate to think the effect it would have on your
neighbors.  :-)

bill
________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 12:57 PM
To: dwight; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe

> On May 1, 2017, at 9:53 AM, dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Aren't these water cooled?
>
> I seem to remember hoses.

No this is all air cooled.

TTFN - Guy
>

From brain at jbrain.com  Mon May  1 12:49:45 2017
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 12:49:45 -0500
Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ
 area)
In-Reply-To: <289F2D33-EC14-4F79-B3AE-28B7826E47CC@pski.net>
References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com>
 <B7F88A33-238C-4BAD-8C55-35F79C8FADA7@pski.net>
 <289F2D33-EC14-4F79-B3AE-28B7826E47CC@pski.net>
Message-ID: <8a75b7be-9c57-43f7-d179-faae7b6855a9@jbrain.com>

On 4/24/2017 6:55 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote:
>>
>>
>> You can find the MC68000 board set (you?ll need a CPU board and at 
>> least one memory board) on eBay quite often.  In most cases, it will 
>> be the Model 16 6Mhz board which will allow you to run TRS-XENIX 1.x. 
>>  If you?re lucky, you?ll find the Model 6000 8Mhz board which will 
>> allow you to run Xenix 3.2.
Information I have now suggests Xenix 3.2 will run on the 6MHz boards, 
but does need the massive RAM.  Does anyone have Xenix disks and a 1MHz 
12 or 16B and can test?

Jim


From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon May  1 12:55:07 2017
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 01 May 2017 12:55:07 -0500
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR14MB16002DF458E3ABCA02C60A29A3140@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>,
 <01f001d2c29a$d097d810$71c78830$@outlook.com>
 <MWHPR14MB16002DF458E3ABCA02C60A29A3140@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <5907767B.3060501@pico-systems.com>

On 05/01/2017 11:53 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> Aren't these water cooled?
>
> I seem to remember hoses.
>
>
No, the 43xx series are all air-cooled.  The  360/85 and 
370/165 and 168 and 3033 series were water-cooled.
Cables the size of garden hoses, for sure, but no water.

Jon

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon May  1 12:57:44 2017
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 10:57:44 -0700
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB13021BEA798F60AA381D6803ED140@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
 <01f001d2c29a$d097d810$71c78830$@outlook.com>
 <MWHPR14MB16002DF458E3ABCA02C60A29A3140@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <DCCD13D2-55F2-431B-A4CA-94FFF57F2FCF@shiresoft.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13021BEA798F60AA381D6803ED140@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <566AACA8-F341-4147-B2CD-8FF8488174B4@shiresoft.com>


> On May 1, 2017, at 10:49 AM, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Just hope you don't have a head crash.  Had one when I was at Ft.
> Ben Harrison (a long time ago, when the 4341 was just going into
> production. We had one of the first!) and it sounded like the building
> was coming down.  Hate to think the effect it would have on your
> neighbors.  :-)

The 3340 drives are winchester pack drives.  So the heads are in the packs themselves.
A head crash means that the pack is toast (but it is usually) but doesn?t render the drive
inoperable (just put in another pack).

TTFN - Guy


From kylevowen at gmail.com  Mon May  1 13:14:25 2017
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 13:14:25 -0500
Subject: os8diskserver help?
In-Reply-To: <CAN69K+b4gBT++FzbF_oqm=UYAJQcB5qKXay+JnZb7eNmLwQNcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAN69K+b4gBT++FzbF_oqm=UYAJQcB5qKXay+JnZb7eNmLwQNcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUzMHm1kEx7n7DrMTZ+2YDXZCrF_cWF=udGxa1_HZ_XJ5w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Tom,

Have you successfully confirmed the functionality of your second serial
card? Is it an M8650, M8655, or something else? If you can toggle in a
quick serial echo test to confirm it can receive characters, that'd be a
good start. Sounds like it has no trouble sending characters, which is a
good sign.

Another thing would be to confirm that the boot block did get loaded
correctly. I might also double-check that the image you're using has
already had the proper handler installed.

Best of luck,

Kyle

On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Tom Moss via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I'm in the process of building and restoring a PDP-8/e, and now I've got a
> second serial card I'd like to give OS/8 a try.
> I'm pretty sure I've got the boot loader entered properly, and the address
> + baud rates set correctly on the PDP and PC.
>
> When I start os8diskserver with "./os8disk -1 ../disks/diagpack2.rk05", it
> gives the welcome message. When I start the 8/e, It says:
> Booting...
> Done sending block 0
>
> ^ and appears to freeze there. (the 8/e doesn't halt)
> I've got a RS-232 tester (blinky light box) hooked up to the port, which
> seems to indicate that nothing is being sent after Block 0 has been sent.
>
> Does anyone know what's going on, or what I'm doing wrong?
>
> Regards,
> -Tom
>

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon May  1 13:16:45 2017
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 19:16:45 +0100
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR14MB16002DF458E3ABCA02C60A29A3140@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>,
 <01f001d2c29a$d097d810$71c78830$@outlook.com>
 <MWHPR14MB16002DF458E3ABCA02C60A29A3140@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <022e01d2c2a7$1794a430$46bdec90$@outlook.com>

No, these were very much Air Cooled. IBM's advertising implied they could be
run in a normal office environment, e.g. as here:-

 

https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_2423PH4331.h
tml

 

but in practice that layout would not work, clearance was required round all
sides as can be seen from the Physical Planning Manual which is available
here

 

http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/content/computing/IBM/Mainframe/Hardware/Syst
em/GA24-3667-1_IBM4300InstallationManual-PhysicalPlanning_Sept79.pdf

 

One issue with these machines was that whilst they were (and still are I
guess) S/370 compatible, in some ways they were perhaps at the time not
considered "Mainframes" by the owners of real S/370 machines.

 

This was because System/370 I/O is normally managed by a "Channel Program"
which is executed by a "channel processor" and on the bigger boxes this was
a separate "CPU"

But on the 4331, 41 and 61 (but not 81) the main CPU was also used to
execute the channel programs, so whilst the CPU was 3x faster than a
370/115, under heavy i/I it would slow down as it was diverted to running
the channel programs. 

There is a whole chapter on this in:-

 

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/43xx/4331/GA33-1527-0_IBM_4331_Pr
ocessor_Channel_Characteristics_Apr79.pdf

 

starting at page 12. You may also read this note:-

 

http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=4331BNCH
<http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=4331BNCH&ft=MEMO&args=4331+channel+
cpu#hit> &ft=MEMO&args=4331+channel+cpu#hit

 

and this

 

http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=308X:PCM
<http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=308X:PCM&ft=MEMO&args=4331+channel+
cpu#47> &ft=MEMO&args=4331+channel+cpu#47

 

about the problems that were had with this CPU.

 

Dave Wade

 

From: dwight [mailto:dkelvey at hotmail.com] 
Sent: 01 May 2017 17:54
To: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe

 

Aren't these water cooled?

I seem to remember hoses.

Dwight

 

  _____  

From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
<mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> > on behalf of Dave Wade G4UGM via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 9:48:52 AM
To: 'Guy Sotomayor Jr'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: RE: IBM 4331 Mainframe 

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy
> Sotomayor Jr via cctalk
> Sent: 01 May 2017 05:39
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >
> Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
> 
> Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this
past
> weekend from where it was currently stored to my shop.  Pictures are here:
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K
> <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
> 
> As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26' box truck that I had
rented for
> this purpose.
> Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop.  Some early tasks
will
> be:
>    * I have to verify that I have everything.  Even if I missed some
items, they
> won't be
>      scrapped.  I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and
verify
> that I didn't
>      leave anything behind.  I'm mostly worried about cables at this
point.
>   * I have to figure out some way to produce enough "clean" 3-phase power
> to run the
>     peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single
phase
> coming
>     into my shop.
> 
> Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet.  ;-)
> 

Yes I remember having a gentle discussion with the University of Salford
electricians, who wanted to know why I wanted 2 x 100amp feeds for the room
into which the 4361 (I think it was a 4361, might have been a 4331 or 4341)
was placed. I don't think we ever loaded them at 100amps but that was what
IBM required. One was for the AirCon and the other for the CPU. If I
remember properly those disks are the truculent ones. Assuming you have
AirCon they need to sit for several hours to acclimatise. 


> TTFN - Guy

Dave





From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon May  1 13:34:02 2017
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 14:34:02 -0400
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkmr5wjpzHZuVNabp4SsP8d2Pzgey9SsSKeJ_nkeP6dAg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 12:38 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past weekend
> from where it was currently stored to my shop.  Pictures are here:
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>

Very cool.  We had a 4331 at Software Results from around 1984 through
about 1988.  We got it because we needed to configure our own HASP,
3780, and SNA lines for testing our products and reproducing customer
issues (and previous attempts to rent time on outside machines took
too long to get configured on demand, etc).  Outside of pushing test
data around, we also used it for designing new products with CBDS2
(Circuit Board Design System 2).  We had a huge (over 20") Tektronix
storage tube for displaying parts of the schematics and layout.  ISTR
we went with the 4331 because it was the smallest machine that could
give us the bisync and SNA lines we needed for its primary use.  It
was vast overkill for the workload we had.

It took up as much floorspace as two of our VAX systems that supported
dozens of users, but was a thing unto itself.

Nice setup!

-ethan

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Mon May  1 13:36:32 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 11:36:32 -0700
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <01f001d2c29a$d097d810$71c78830$@outlook.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
 <01f001d2c29a$d097d810$71c78830$@outlook.com>
Message-ID: <99e7e8c6-913a-538f-3e71-50eafb5ef5e1@jwsss.com>



On 5/1/2017 9:48 AM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote:
> Yes I remember having a gentle discussion with the University of Salford electricians, who wanted to know why I wanted 2 x 100amp feeds for the room into which the 4361 (I think it was a 4361, might have been a 4331 or 4341) was placed. I don't think we ever loaded them at 100amps but that was what IBM required. One was for the AirCon and the other for the CPU. If I remember properly those disks are the truculent ones. Assuming you have AirCon they need to sit for several hours to acclimatise.
>
>
>> TTFN - Guy
> Dave
The 4361 is the real gem to get in this type of system.  There is a 
builtin storage director as well as the 4 port comm controller.

The 43xx's all have 4 ports of 3270 with at least one of them being the 
3215 (I think) which is the console boot port.  The others are all 
3278s.  so you don't need to have a 3174 of any sort unless you have 
lots of lines, or need comms options.

Guy will have to have not only the DASD, but a storage director box 
running for this system.

I think you hooked 3370's up to the 4361 to get one string of 200mb / 
drive DASD.  So add a 3411 small tape, and you had a nice compact "PC" 
mainframe.  The fact you could run w/o  a storage director was good 
because it it was just one more big power hog.

BTW, Guy, I've got 2 or 3 of the suitcase setup boxes for this series.  
I collected them just for the hell of it.  If you end up shy of them, 
let me know.

thanks
Jim


From pete at pski.net  Mon May  1 13:49:09 2017
From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 14:49:09 -0400
Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix,
 AZ area)
In-Reply-To: <8a75b7be-9c57-43f7-d179-faae7b6855a9@jbrain.com>
References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com>
 <B7F88A33-238C-4BAD-8C55-35F79C8FADA7@pski.net>
 <289F2D33-EC14-4F79-B3AE-28B7826E47CC@pski.net>
 <8a75b7be-9c57-43f7-d179-faae7b6855a9@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <7CDA6361-D6EB-4537-9B68-0C24BCF42723@pski.net>



Pete

> On May 1, 2017, at 1:49 PM, Jim Brain <brain at jbrain.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 4/24/2017 6:55 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> You can find the MC68000 board set (you?ll need a CPU board and at least one memory board) on eBay quite often.  In most cases, it will be the Model 16 6Mhz board which will allow you to run TRS-XENIX 1.x.  If you?re lucky, you?ll find the Model 6000 8Mhz board which will allow you to run Xenix 3.2.  
> Information I have now suggests Xenix 3.2 will run on the 6MHz boards, but does need the massive RAM.  Does anyone have Xenix disks and a 1MHz 12 or 16B and can test?
> 
> Jim
> 

You will need the PAL upgrade to get the 6Mhz board to run Xenix 3.x. This is documented in the Model 16 tech bulletins you can find in the model2archive.  But, the required PAL chips are pretty much unobtanium now.  There is a seller on eBay who had a few upgraded 6Mhz boards for sale recently.  He may still have some.

The 8mhz boards are similarly unobtanium.

The Xenix 1.x and 3.x disk images can all be found in the model2archive.

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Mon May  1 13:59:33 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 18:59:33 +0000
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <566AACA8-F341-4147-B2CD-8FF8488174B4@shiresoft.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
 <01f001d2c29a$d097d810$71c78830$@outlook.com>
 <MWHPR14MB16002DF458E3ABCA02C60A29A3140@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <DCCD13D2-55F2-431B-A4CA-94FFF57F2FCF@shiresoft.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13021BEA798F60AA381D6803ED140@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>,
 <566AACA8-F341-4147-B2CD-8FF8488174B4@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB1302A7814341DD1A0BB9F514ED140@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


________________________________________
From: Guy Sotomayor Jr [ggs at shiresoft.com]
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 1:57 PM
To: Bill Gunshannon
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe

> On May 1, 2017, at 10:49 AM, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Just hope you don't have a head crash.  Had one when I was at Ft.
> Ben Harrison (a long time ago, when the 4341 was just going into
> production. We had one of the first!) and it sounded like the building
> was coming down.  Hate to think the effect it would have on your
> neighbors.  :-)

The 3340 drives are winchester pack drives.  So the heads are in the packs themselves.
A head crash means that the pack is toast (but it is usually) but doesn?t render the drive
inoperable (just put in another pack).

TTFN - Guy

________________________________________

Yeah, pretty sure those were too.  First tool the IBM Tech brought in
was a shop vac.  He vacuumed out what was left and had us running
again in about 2 hours.

Those were the days!!

bill

From brain at jbrain.com  Mon May  1 22:02:58 2017
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 22:02:58 -0500
Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ
 area)
In-Reply-To: <7CDA6361-D6EB-4537-9B68-0C24BCF42723@pski.net>
References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com>
 <B7F88A33-238C-4BAD-8C55-35F79C8FADA7@pski.net>
 <289F2D33-EC14-4F79-B3AE-28B7826E47CC@pski.net>
 <8a75b7be-9c57-43f7-d179-faae7b6855a9@jbrain.com>
 <7CDA6361-D6EB-4537-9B68-0C24BCF42723@pski.net>
Message-ID: <d2775779-7f7a-ad97-ab26-95394a5446a5@jbrain.com>

On May 1, 2017 at 2:49 PM Peter Cetinski <pete at pski.net> wrote:

    Pete

    You will need the PAL upgrade to get the 6Mhz board to run Xenix
    3.x. This is documented in the Model 16 tech bulletins you can find
    in the model2archive. But, the required PAL chips are pretty much
    unobtanium now. There is a seller on eBay who had a few upgraded
    6Mhz boards for sale recently. He may still have some.

I think I know the seller you're referencing.  I don't see a hard drive 
adapter, so still looking for that.

Is the file for the PAL available to program new ones?  If the items are 
not registered, I can read out the equations.

    The 8mhz boards are similarly unobtanium.

I noticed.

    The Xenix 1.x and 3.x disk images can all be found in the model2archive.

OK, I'll see if I can make some disks from the images.  It'll probably 
take me a while to figure it out.


From imp at bsdimp.com  Mon May  1 22:20:16 2017
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 21:20:16 -0600
Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow (mirror of Latrobe ftp anybody ?)
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfpQwy_Ye35h3_Ngm7f=HAwx-0OP2w-pTms5uNSQZMsiQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7beb6697-287c-92be-f588-ca5fdd30fe29@gmail.com>
 <46153FA1-0D81-46F3-93A5-1516A2DE117F@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <CANCZdfpQwy_Ye35h3_Ngm7f=HAwx-0OP2w-pTms5uNSQZMsiQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfqFG24231VJNiEXv1tYu3kJUbmvzcvALgGmQjxOut1dpw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 1:40 AM, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Huw Davies
> <huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19 Aug 2016, at 02:31, shadoooo <shadoooo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> It seems that copies of this software are really difficult to find, but a complete copy
>>> was available on the latrobe ftp DEC Rainbow archive... which disappeared with all valuable data...
>>> Anybody has a copy of the content before the deletion?
>>
>> I?m sure the archive would have been set up by Paul Nankervis who I used to work with at La Trobe. I?ll see if he still has  the original copies.
>
> I have a bunch of disks for my Rainbow labeled Windows 1.0 if there's
> no archives that have them.

All the online archives seem to have a bogus copy, that's a mix of
VAXmate and Rainwbow files and it doesn't work.

So I discovered I have a copy that isn't in the archives. I've
uploaded it. Details in my blog entry
http://bsdimp.blogspot.com/2017/05/rainbow-100-windows-10-disks-redux.html
about things. At least one member has these files and is trying to
make them work. Since I don't have Graphics Adapter, I've not worried
too much about them... But I've had them in my collection since I
think 2001...

Warner

From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue May  2 02:52:52 2017
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 01:52:52 -0600
Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix,
 AZ area)
In-Reply-To: <7CDA6361-D6EB-4537-9B68-0C24BCF42723@pski.net>
References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com>
 <B7F88A33-238C-4BAD-8C55-35F79C8FADA7@pski.net>
 <289F2D33-EC14-4F79-B3AE-28B7826E47CC@pski.net>
 <8a75b7be-9c57-43f7-d179-faae7b6855a9@jbrain.com>
 <7CDA6361-D6EB-4537-9B68-0C24BCF42723@pski.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTzsuzzfJrUZs1+UopP-mzYX+8jz1rJZgPNzt4GdbtyiQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 12:49 PM, Peter Cetinski via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> The 8mhz [MC68000 for TRS-80 Model 16/6000] boards are similarly unobtanium


Is a schematic for the 8 MHz board available?  Is there any other tech info
about the differences between the original 6 MHz boards and the 8 MHz?  I
only have a 6 MHz, but if I knew the differences, I'd contemplate hacking
it into an 8 MHz, or just laying out a new 8 MHz board in Eagle.

Will TRSDOS-16 work on the 8 MHz board?

From carlclaunch51 at gmail.com  Tue May  2 12:10:11 2017
From: carlclaunch51 at gmail.com (Carl Claunch)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 10:10:11 -0700
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
Message-ID: <CABi7Mb7Jcg0EjPz3vcv03Y_OTTLuAH_iQATiBM7zs8sM-YXgyA@mail.gmail.com>

> The 4361 is the real gem to get in this type of system.  There is a
> builtin storage director as well as the 4 port comm controller.

The 4331 had an option for an integrated storage director, as well as a
feature that converted between CKD and FBA for use with 3340 drives. The
system Guy owns only needs the 3340 A2 and B2 drives cabled together and to
the integrated director.

Carl

From pete at pski.net  Tue May  2 18:07:39 2017
From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 19:07:39 -0400
Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix,
 AZ area)
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTzsuzzfJrUZs1+UopP-mzYX+8jz1rJZgPNzt4GdbtyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com>
 <B7F88A33-238C-4BAD-8C55-35F79C8FADA7@pski.net>
 <289F2D33-EC14-4F79-B3AE-28B7826E47CC@pski.net>
 <8a75b7be-9c57-43f7-d179-faae7b6855a9@jbrain.com>
 <7CDA6361-D6EB-4537-9B68-0C24BCF42723@pski.net>
 <CAFrGgTTzsuzzfJrUZs1+UopP-mzYX+8jz1rJZgPNzt4GdbtyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <587DEFA1-0A01-4432-8C24-5E96093B7590@pski.net>



> Is the file for the PAL available to program new ones?  If the items are not registered, I can read out the equations.


Theses PAL equations specifically to allow the 6Mhz board to run Xenix 3 do not exist AFAIK.  I do have a PAL upgraded board but have not yet verified if it works.  If there is a way to safely reverse engineer the PALs, I might consider trying.

> 
> Is a schematic for the 8 MHz board available?  Is there any other tech info about the differences between the original 6 MHz boards and the 8 MHz?  I only have a 6 MHz, but if I knew the differences, I'd contemplate hacking it into an 8 MHz, or just laying out a new 8 MHz board in Eagle.
> 

I should expand a little more.  There are actually 2 different 6Mhz boards.  The first was a larger board that was part of the original Model 16 release.  The second was a smaller more compact board that I believe was released late in the 16s life and also along with the subsequent Model 16B.  This was required because the 16B cannot host outsized cards in its card cage.  Btw, You can use a 2nd or 3rd gen 68k board in a Model 16.  You can also use a 3rd gen board in a 16B.

Now, only the 2nd generation 6Mhz board can be upgraded with the appropriate PALs.  If you have the 1st gen board you will have to be happy with Xenix 1.x.  Which is fine because it's fun too and 98% of the Tandy Xenix software runs on Xenix 1.

The Model 16 service manual has the schematics of the 1st gen board.  The Tandy 6000 service manual has the schematics for the 3rd gen 8Mhz board.  I have not seen schematics for the 2nd gen 6Mhz board.  I suspect it can be found in the Model 16B service manual, but that manual is as rare as two-headed ballerina.  I have yet to find one.

> Will TRSDOS-16 work on the 8 MHz board?
> 

Yes, the 8Mhz board will run all known Tandy 68k OSes.

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Tue May  2 19:21:28 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 17:21:28 -0700
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 of odd sort on epay
Message-ID: <a58ddf66-14a8-3161-7053-c6d143d294b4@jwsss.com>


This might be a tempest or shielded vaxstation?  Anyone speculate or 
know for sure.

The vendor may have these mixed in as equivalent to their other 
vaxstations.  If you search for "DEC vax VS42A-BN"
you end up back at the vendors listing for the ones with plastic 
covers.  I didn't turn up any info yet, not hoping to.
but the thing has what appears to be optical, and a huge connector which 
may be shielded SCSI on the back.

I can't tell from the front, but there may be a hatch to allow it to be 
opened and a floppy inserted, not sure from
the photos.

VINTAGE-RARE-DEC-DIGITAL-VAXSTATION-3100-PF-VS42A-AA-RF-VS42A-BN-COMPUTER-SYSTEM/
http://www.ebay.com/itm/370930391341

Kind of an interesting device.

I looped back into the vendors listings to this auction for the plastic 
topped version, by the way

VINTAGE-DEC-DIGITAL-VT1300-VAXSTATION-VS42A-BB-COMPUTER-SYSTEM-VT-1300-TERMINAL/
http://www.ebay.com/itm/370912245260

It is badged VT-1300 so may not be a vaxstation.  And the other box may 
be one of the VT-1300's
that is tempest or shielded.

thanks
Jim

From systems.glitch at gmail.com  Tue May  2 19:38:30 2017
From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 20:38:30 -0400
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 of odd sort on epay
In-Reply-To: <a58ddf66-14a8-3161-7053-c6d143d294b4@jwsss.com>
References: <a58ddf66-14a8-3161-7053-c6d143d294b4@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <20170502203830.774d618cb3ebb7956d421363@gmail.com>

I keep meaning to stop by the guy's shop in MD and check out some of his DEC stuff. From what I can tell, this isn't TEMPEST shielding, but RF shielding for e.g. lab situations that require a low RF noise floor. It's probably effectively the same as TEMPEST in practice, but seems to lack the gov't certification.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Tue, 2 May 2017 17:21:28 -0700
jim stephens via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> 
> This might be a tempest or shielded vaxstation?  Anyone speculate or 
> know for sure.
> 
> The vendor may have these mixed in as equivalent to their other 
> vaxstations.  If you search for "DEC vax VS42A-BN"
> you end up back at the vendors listing for the ones with plastic 
> covers.  I didn't turn up any info yet, not hoping to.
> but the thing has what appears to be optical, and a huge connector which 
> may be shielded SCSI on the back.
> 
> I can't tell from the front, but there may be a hatch to allow it to be 
> opened and a floppy inserted, not sure from
> the photos.
> 
> VINTAGE-RARE-DEC-DIGITAL-VAXSTATION-3100-PF-VS42A-AA-RF-VS42A-BN-COMPUTER-SYSTEM/
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/370930391341
> 
> Kind of an interesting device.
> 
> I looped back into the vendors listings to this auction for the plastic 
> topped version, by the way
> 
> VINTAGE-DEC-DIGITAL-VT1300-VAXSTATION-VS42A-BB-COMPUTER-SYSTEM-VT-1300-TERMINAL/
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/370912245260
> 
> It is badged VT-1300 so may not be a vaxstation.  And the other box may 
> be one of the VT-1300's
> that is tempest or shielded.
> 
> thanks
> Jim

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Tue May  2 19:45:38 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 17:45:38 -0700
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 of odd sort on epay
In-Reply-To: <20170502203830.774d618cb3ebb7956d421363@gmail.com>
References: <a58ddf66-14a8-3161-7053-c6d143d294b4@jwsss.com>
 <20170502203830.774d618cb3ebb7956d421363@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e7b4ba9e-07b2-b34e-0832-3cb5337333f8@jwsss.com>



On 5/2/2017 5:38 PM, Systems Glitch via cctalk wrote:
> I keep meaning to stop by the guy's shop in MD
Please provide photos and info if you would.  They have a lot of stuff.  
I'm interested in whether this is a wound down
or ongoing Dec material operation, or the operation of an e waste recycler.

Vendor name on ebay is EFI.  May have other aliases.

thanks
Jim

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue May  2 20:37:32 2017
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue,  2 May 2017 21:37:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 of odd sort on epay
Message-ID: <20170503013732.0A7A718C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jim Stephens

    > I'm interested in whether this is a wound down or ongoing Dec material
    > operation, or the operation of an e waste recycler.
    > Vendor name on ebay is EFI. May have other aliases.

Oh, Efi! All hardened DEC collectors know about Efi (well, many of us do :-).
They are indeed an ewaste recycler. Good people. The company name is ComUsed
and/or TopLine. They used to be in Silver Spring (the place was the
personification of 'gomi' from "Neuromancer" :-), but it got too small, so
they moved. (Sniff. I miss the old place!)

They got started on DEC stuff when they bought some DEC collector's entire
collection after that person passed; most of that's long gone (it's been
_thoroughly_ picked over :-), but they occasionally get more DEC stuff.

	Noel

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue May  2 21:55:21 2017
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 19:55:21 -0700
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 of odd sort on epay
In-Reply-To: <a58ddf66-14a8-3161-7053-c6d143d294b4@jwsss.com>
References: <a58ddf66-14a8-3161-7053-c6d143d294b4@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLFaXoG9wYL7v=QKLOWbxK_ay5E8BhNStxSj15aU1VX6w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 5:21 PM, jim stephens via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> VINTAGE-DEC-DIGITAL-VT1300-VAXSTATION-VS42A-BB-COMPUTER-SYSTEM-VT-1300-TERMINAL/
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/370912245260
>
> It is badged VT-1300 so may not be a vaxstation.  And the other box may be
> one of the VT-1300's
> that is tempest or shielded.

A VT1300 is a VAXstation 3100 M30 KA42-A CPU in a BA42-A box but
without the SCSI interface and internal hard disk shelf mounting
hardware. It might also have different firmware than a standard VS3100
M30. It is meant to net boot the X Window System server software. I
have a VT1300 (and a couple of VXT2000) that I haven't powered on in a
while.

-Glen

From brain at jbrain.com  Tue May  2 22:11:16 2017
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 22:11:16 -0500
Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model parts (and/or someone in the Phoenix, AZ
 area)
In-Reply-To: <587DEFA1-0A01-4432-8C24-5E96093B7590@pski.net>
References: <1b319.158c548a.462ec947@aol.com>
 <B7F88A33-238C-4BAD-8C55-35F79C8FADA7@pski.net>
 <289F2D33-EC14-4F79-B3AE-28B7826E47CC@pski.net>
 <8a75b7be-9c57-43f7-d179-faae7b6855a9@jbrain.com>
 <7CDA6361-D6EB-4537-9B68-0C24BCF42723@pski.net>
 <CAFrGgTTzsuzzfJrUZs1+UopP-mzYX+8jz1rJZgPNzt4GdbtyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <587DEFA1-0A01-4432-8C24-5E96093B7590@pski.net>
Message-ID: <a42a3954-c837-50f0-a9a9-86419bd5142f@jbrain.com>

On 5/2/2017 6:07 PM, Peter Cetinski via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Is the file for the PAL available to program new ones?  If the items are not registered, I can read out the equations.
>
> Theses PAL equations specifically to allow the 6Mhz board to run Xenix 3 do not exist AFAIK.  I do have a PAL upgraded board but have not yet verified if it works.  If there is a way to safely reverse engineer the PALs, I might consider trying.
If they are 16L8s or similar, they can be easily reverse engineered with 
an EPROM reader and Logic Friday.  I picked up the eBay PAL upgraded 
boards, so I will see when they arrive.

Jim

-- 

Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com


From seefriek at gmail.com  Tue May  2 22:28:59 2017
From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 23:28:59 -0400
Subject: AB "Multibus"?
Message-ID: <CAOrcWjww4vuzvBMRQKGHsnMJjc-bpL+iD-oTP++1B3V5_dHmrQ@mail.gmail.com>

Are Allen-Bradley Multibus-1 form factor cards actually Multibus
compliant or something proprietary?

KJ

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed May  3 06:52:20 2017
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 13:52:20 +0200
Subject: Beautifully-posed photos of various kinds of retro kit
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE6Krb0_fy90T+PsXW=yUs7f6iHTbqjODj17W2FLv3svw@mail.gmail.com>

>From the Apple ][ up to PowerMac G4s. So, possibly a bit new for many
of you folk, but I enjoyed them and thought others might too.

http://podstawczynski.com/retro/beauty_shots.html

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed May  3 07:03:19 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 08:03:19 -0400
Subject: VCF SE Photos
Message-ID: <CABGJBue0VFC4i7NrvPKL7ZewwCQAFqf79UQUEyM2fULUG1f39Q@mail.gmail.com>

Here are my photos from the VCF South East April 30/May 1.  Roswell, GA
hosted by Mims' Computer History Museum of America

http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=677

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Wed May  3 08:52:28 2017
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 13:52:28 +0000
Subject: AB "Multibus"?
In-Reply-To: <CAOrcWjww4vuzvBMRQKGHsnMJjc-bpL+iD-oTP++1B3V5_dHmrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjww4vuzvBMRQKGHsnMJjc-bpL+iD-oTP++1B3V5_dHmrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB1600554268A115008F38255FA3160@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Why do you ask?

Dwight

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Ken Seefried via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 8:28:59 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: AB "Multibus"?

Are Allen-Bradley Multibus-1 form factor cards actually Multibus
compliant or something proprietary?

KJ

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed May  3 06:46:42 2017
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 13:46:42 +0200
Subject: The inventor of the ARM chip donates first computer he ever built
 (40min video)
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGuu52k_tXCNgh2jMobu3713hBFfhUA9PH+sW9m-CDHNw@mail.gmail.com>

https://youtu.be/8_33Yv5LsSs

Professor Steve Thurber -- co-inventor of the ARM processor, the BBC
Micro and much more -- donates his first ever computer, and arguably
the first prototype of the BBC Micro, to The Centre for Computing
History in this fascinating (& very cute) video.
https://youtu.be/8_33Yv5LsSs

Well worth 40min of your time.



-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

From mazzinia at tin.it  Wed May  3 09:57:45 2017
From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 16:57:45 +0200
Subject: Question about an SGI Fuel issue / fuel sensors ( current - temp )
Message-ID: <00e701d2c41d$a0631770$e1294650$@tin.it>

Hello,

Since there are a lot of experts here ( I guess, at least ), I would like for an opinion / ideas / knowledge.

I've been told that the temperature sensors on Fuels are subject to get defective.
Is the same valid for current sensors ?

The question is due to this... I just got a Fuel donated to me, very kindly, that didn't turn on once I tried to. (the old owner didn't turn it on in a while, I was told)
I've connected to the L1 diagnostic serial port on the mb and ...
The env system prevents it from turning on for 2 reasons

1) XIO V12 bias with a value of 5.81 , considered too low
2) Odyssey temp fix at 93c at box turned off

But I managed to run env while the 30 seconds timer announcing the power down were running and... it shows that 12V and 12V IO are perfect with the psu "running" so... any idea if the xio v12 bias sensor is connected with the odyssey temp sensor and thus could be simply faulty.
I could do a test turning off env monitoring, but I would prefer to do it only after hearing opinions . given I don't know what kind of damages could happen if v12 bias is right , instead, and the system is brought up

Environmental monitoring is enabled and running.

Description    State       Warning Limits     Fault Limits       Current
-------------- ----------  -----------------  -----------------  -------
           12V    Enabled  10%  10.80/ 13.20  20%   9.60/ 14.40   12.12
        12V IO    Enabled  10%  10.80/ 13.20  20%   9.60/ 14.40   12.19
            5V    Enabled  10%   4.50/  5.50  20%   4.00/  6.00    5.10
          3.3V    Enabled  10%   2.97/  3.63  20%   2.64/  3.96    3.35
          2.5V    Enabled  10%   2.25/  2.75  20%   2.00/  3.00    2.47
          1.5V    Enabled  10%   1.35/  1.65  20%   1.20/  1.80    1.47
        5V aux    Enabled  10%   4.50/  5.50  20%   4.00/  6.00    5.12
      3.3V aux    Enabled  10%   2.97/  3.63  20%   2.64/  3.96    3.29
PIMM0 12V bias    Enabled  10%  10.80/ 13.20  20%   9.60/ 14.40    0.00
  Asterix SRAM    Enabled  10%   2.25/  2.75  20%   2.00/  3.00    2.52
   Asterix CPU    Enabled  10%   1.44/  1.76  20%   1.28/  1.92    1.61
    PIMM0 1.5V    Enabled  10%   1.35/  1.65  20%   1.20/  1.80    0.00
PIMM0 3.3V aux    Enabled  10%   2.97/  3.63  20%   2.64/  3.96    3.30
  PIMM0 5V aux    Enabled  10%   4.50/  5.50  20%   4.00/  6.00    5.15
  XIO 12V bias      Fault  10%  10.80/ 13.20  20%   9.60/ 14.40    5.81
        XIO 5V    Enabled  10%   4.50/  5.50  20%   4.00/  6.00    2.42
      XIO 2.5V    Enabled  10%   2.25/  2.75  20%   2.00/  3.00    1.21
  XIO 3.3V aux    Enabled  10%   2.97/  3.63  20%   2.64/  3.96    1.60

Description    State       Warning RPM  Current RPM
-------------- ----------  -----------  -----------
FAN 0  EXHAUST    Enabled          920         1129
FAN 1       HD    Enabled         1560         2229
FAN 2      PCI    Enabled         1120         1476
FAN 3    XIO 1    Enabled         1600         3869
FAN 4    XIO 2    Enabled         1600         3699
FAN 5       PS    Enabled         1600         1980

                           Advisory  Critical  Fault     Current
Description    State       Temp      Temp      Temp      Temp
-------------- ----------  --------  --------  --------  ---------
NODE 0            Enabled  60C/140F  65C/149F  70C/158F  20c/ 68F
NODE 1            Enabled  60C/140F  65C/149F  70C/158F  21c/ 69F
NODE 2            Enabled  60C/140F  65C/149F  70C/158F  20c/ 68F
PIMM              Enabled  60C/140F  65C/149F  70C/158F  20c/ 68F
ODYSSEY            Active  60C/140F  65C/149F  70C/158F  93c/199F
BEDROCK           Enabled  60C/140F  65C/149F  70C/158F  20c/ 68F



Alessandro


From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net  Wed May  3 10:09:37 2017
From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H)
Date: Wed, 03 May 2017 08:09:37 -0700
Subject: VCF SE Photos
Message-ID: <kkrqsmyrmbcc1qt0qw3xwf25.1493824177203@email.android.com>


    
Thanks for the pics!
Curious.. the Mark-8 in the museum.. that's a repro, right? ?I thought they got a few real ones from Bugbook.
Brad


Sent from my Samsung device

-------- Original message --------
From: william degnan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Date: 2017-05-03  5:03 AM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Subject: VCF SE Photos 

Here are my photos from the VCF South East April 30/May 1.? Roswell, GA
hosted by Mims' Computer History Museum of America

http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=677

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed May  3 12:13:27 2017
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 03 May 2017 12:13:27 -0500
Subject: Question about an SGI Fuel issue / fuel sensors ( current - temp )
In-Reply-To: <00e701d2c41d$a0631770$e1294650$@tin.it>
References: <00e701d2c41d$a0631770$e1294650$@tin.it>
Message-ID: <590A0FB7.3020309@pico-systems.com>

On 05/03/2017 09:57 AM, Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk wrote:
>
> I've been told that the temperature sensors on Fuels are subject to get defective.
> Is the same valid for current sensors ?
>
>
I'd take it apart, maybe even the power supply, and reseat 
all connectors, and then try it again.  It COULD be a bad 
sensor, but is more likely to be a bad connection.

Jon

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Wed May  3 14:03:04 2017
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 15:03:04 -0400
Subject: Beautifully-posed photos of various kinds of retro kit
Message-ID: <a718.5a4d866c.463b8368@aol.com>

Nice  work Liam!
 great to see things  displayed in a  'setting'  rather  than just   
computers on shelves!
KUDOS!     Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 5/3/2017 4:52:30 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

>From the  Apple ][ up to PowerMac G4s. So, possibly a bit new for many
of you folk,  but I enjoyed them and thought others might  too.

http://podstawczynski.com/retro/beauty_shots.html

--  
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email:  lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus:  lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ?  Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ?  ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829  053

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Wed May  3 15:23:07 2017
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 13:23:07 -0700
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <B2FD287D-E36C-45B2-BC14-F1A861DE1EFC@gmail.com>

Let me know what you come up with for the 3 phase converter solution. I have the exact same problem right now to provide power for my 3 3420 tapes and the 3803 controller. Also have 220V 50A single phase coming in the shop (er, garage), courtesy of the EV charger.
Marc

On Apr 30, 2017, at 9:38 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past weekend
from where it was currently stored to my shop.  Pictures are here: 
https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>

As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for this purpose.
Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop.  Some early tasks will be:
  * I have to verify that I have everything.  Even if I missed some items, they won?t be
    scrapped.  I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify that I didn?t
    leave anything behind.  I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
 * I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power to run the
   peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase coming
   into my shop.

Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet.  ;-)

TTFN - Guy


From jfehlinger at comcast.net  Wed May  3 11:41:23 2017
From: jfehlinger at comcast.net (JAMES FEHLINGER)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 12:41:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SimH IBM1130 GUI appears broken
Message-ID: <251386307.46740.1493829684195@connect.xfinity.com>

I originally attempted to post this to simh at trailing-edge.com,
but they have a policy of automatically rejecting any messages from
non-subscribers, and as I only read that list via the Web
interface, it doesn't seem worth it to subscribe just in order to
post one message.  However, I suspect that Brian Knittel and/or
Mark Pizzolato probably see stuff that's posted here too.

---

Once upon a time (i.e., prior to early January, 2016), the
SimH IBM1130 GUI worked like this (on Windows):

You start the simulator in a console window and issue the
commands (either manually or via a command file argument):

-------------------------
reset
detach prt
delete printer.txt

att dsk0 dms.dsk

att prt printer.txt
boot dsk
-------------------------

At this point, the simulator, after having booted the DMS
operating system, enters a "Wait state" and drops
back to the SimH prompt. The console window shows
(if you've started the simulator with the command file
argument "guijob" containing the above commands):

-------------------------
IBM 1130 Simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: e8ea427d
guijob-2> detach prt
Not attached
PRT: creating new file
Loaded DMS V2M12 cold start card

Wait, IAR: 0000002A (4c80 BSC I ,00028 )
sim>
-------------------------

The line printer icon in the GUI now "shows paper" which,
if you view it (thereby "tearing it off" and causing
the creation of a new printer file) will show the boot
message from DMS.

At this point, you can submit a "job deck" by dragging a
file to the GUI's card reader icon -- e.g., one of the
decks from the software kit at ibm1130.org
(such as a job to print the LET [Location Equivalence Table] list.job,
a sample Fortran program for.job or one of the more substantial
Fortran programs like csort.job or swave.job, etc.)

Each time you drag the "job deck" file over the GUI's
card reader icon, the depicted input tray "fills up" and
the console shows, e.g.

sim> attach cr "C:\ibm1130\dms\list.job"
sim>

You then click the green PROGRAM START button, the blinkenlights
flash briefly, the card reader "empties", the printer "shows paper"
(if it was empty beforehand) and, most significantly here,
**the simulator enters Wait state and drops back to its prompt
when the program has finished**. The console window now shows (e.g.)

sim> attach cr "C:\ibm1130\dms\list.job"
sim> cont
Wait, IAR: 0000002A (4c80 BSC I ,00028 )
sim>

You can continue to submit jobs, without rebooting DMS, by dragging
a new deck to the card reader icon, and clicking PROGRAM START.
Each time, the simulator swallows the "cards", flashes the blinkenlights,
adds output to the line printer file, and enters Wait and drops
back to its prompt.

The "git commit id" in the IBM1130.exe used for the above example is e8ea427d from
https://github.com/simh/Win32-Development-Binaries archive
simh-4.0-Beta--2016-01-07-e8ea427d.zip (January 7, 2016).

If I use the IBM1130.exe from the very next archive
simh-4.0-Beta--2016-01-29-b8049645.zip (January 29, 2016), I get
a different result (using the same file of startup commands):

-------------------------
IBM 1130 Simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: b8049645
guijob-2> detach prt
Not attached
PRT: creating new file
Loaded DMS V2M12 cold start card
-------------------------

Here, the simulator has not entered a Wait state and dropped back
to a prompt. If I try to drag a "job deck" file to the card reader
icon, the attempt is rejected with a Windows error gong and
the card reader remains empty.

I can get around this by performing the following:

Click the red "IMM STOP" button.

Drag the "job deck" file to the card reader icon. The reader
"fills up".

In the console window, type "boot dsk" to re-boot DMS
(clicking PROGRAM START doesn't work here!),
The card reader empties, the blinkenlights flash and apparently
the program runs. However, the simulator does not enter
Wait state when the program is finished. (Nor can I click on
the lineprinter icon to "tear off" and view the results at this point.)

However, if I again click the red "IMM STOP" button and then
click the lineprinter icon, I can see the results of the
program that just ran. Or, I can click IMM STOP, submit a
new job deck to the card reader, type "boot dsk" (you have
to re-boot DMS; PROGRAM START won't work!),
and the new program will run and add its results to the lineprinter output.

The very latest Win32 build of IBM1130.exe, from
simh-4.0-Beta--2017-05-02-e9dea63b.zip (May 2, 2017)
exhibits slightly different (but still apparently broken)
behavior.

When the startup command file executes, the initial result looks
correct (i.e., the same as the January 7, 2016 result above):

-------------------------
IBM 1130 Simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: e9dea63b
guijob-2> detach prt
Not attached
PRT: creating new file
Loaded DMS V2M12 cold start card

Wait, IAR: 0000002A (4c80 BSC I ,00028 )
sim>
-------------------------

Note that the simulator has entered the Wait state and dropped back
to its prompt, and you can now drag a job deck to the card reader
and start the program normally by clicking PROGRAM START.

However, at this point the simulator reverts to the broken behavior
exhibited by the January 29, 2016 example above -- when the program is
finished running, the simulator does not enter Wait state and
drop back to a "sim>" prompt. The console window looks like:

-------------------------
IBM 1130 Simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: e9dea63b
guijob-2> detach prt
Not attached
PRT: creating new file
Loaded DMS V2M12 cold start card

Wait, IAR: 0000002A (4c80 BSC I ,00028 )
sim> cont
-------------------------

and the simulator remains unresponsive until the IMM STOP button
is pushed. Then we see:

-------------------------
IBM 1130 Simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: e9dea63b
guijob-2> detach prt
Not attached
PRT: creating new file
Loaded DMS V2M12 cold start card

Wait, IAR: 0000002A (4c80 BSC I ,00028 )
sim> cont

Immediate Stop key requested, IAR (4c80 BSC I ,00028 )
-------------------------

At this point, the GUI becomes responsive again, and the
line printer output can be "torn off" and viewed, or a
new job can be dragged to the card reader.

However, you cannot then use the PROGRAM START button to
start the new program. If you do, the simulator will issue
a "cont" command, but the card reader will not empty and
the new program will not run.

You have to type "boot dsk" in the console window to reboot DMS.
At this point, the loaded card reader will empty by itself,
the new program will run, and the program's output will be added
to the lineprinter listing.

For each additional job deck you want to run, you have to use
the IMM STOP, load card reader, "boot dsk" (reboot DMS)
sequence.

So it appears something happened to break the normal functioning
of the 1130 GUI back in January of last year, which has not yet
been completely repaired.

From oltmansg at gmail.com  Wed May  3 15:32:39 2017
From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 15:32:39 -0500
Subject: Beautifully-posed photos of various kinds of retro kit
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCE6Krb0_fy90T+PsXW=yUs7f6iHTbqjODj17W2FLv3svw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCE6Krb0_fy90T+PsXW=yUs7f6iHTbqjODj17W2FLv3svw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABVr2Pvx6x_gUnG77fe6dJoE+A3_V_fU058RYWnFuWnhbkU=Dg@mail.gmail.com>

Looks great!

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 6:52 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> From the Apple ][ up to PowerMac G4s. So, possibly a bit new for many
> of you folk, but I enjoyed them and thought others might too.
>
> http://podstawczynski.com/retro/beauty_shots.html
>
> --
> Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
> Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
> UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053
>

From systems.glitch at gmail.com  Wed May  3 18:49:10 2017
From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 19:49:10 -0400
Subject: Ohio Scientific Universal RAM Board GW-OSI-RAM1
Message-ID: <20170503194910.fcf74e9e5feaafb1f2c2848b@gmail.com>

Finished building a prototype mezzanine board and testing with the IM6100 (PDP-8 on a chip) in the 560Z board today. Full writeup:

http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/05/03/gw-osi-ram1-universal-ram

There are a couple of tweaks required, but I should be doing a first production run of boards before long. This board is:

* 128 KW, 12-bits
* Optional memory management/bank switching
* No hard-to-find/expensive ICs (8T26, et c.)
* All through hole
* Includes lamp register mezzanine header
* Largeish prototype area

The lamp register is on a mezzanine for a few reasons. First off, octal vs. hex grouping! It really throws me off to try and interpret one on the other. Second, it allows remote mounting on a ribbon cable, i.e. board can be mounted to a front panel. Third, I'll likely design a 7-segment version.

Thanks,
Jonathan

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May  3 19:08:42 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 17:08:42 -0700
Subject: Ohio Scientific Universal RAM Board GW-OSI-RAM1
In-Reply-To: <20170503194910.fcf74e9e5feaafb1f2c2848b@gmail.com>
References: <20170503194910.fcf74e9e5feaafb1f2c2848b@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6931a8ea-1c40-9927-2442-8d7324e528c5@sydex.com>

On 05/03/2017 04:49 PM, Systems Glitch via cctalk wrote:
> Finished building a prototype mezzanine board and testing with the
> IM6100 (PDP-8 on a chip) in the 560Z board today. Full writeup:
> 
> The lamp register is on a mezzanine for a few reasons. First off,
> octal vs. hex grouping! It really throws me off to try and interpret
> one on the other. Second, it allows remote mounting on a ribbon
> cable, i.e. board can be mounted to a front panel. Third, I'll likely
> design a 7-segment version.

Is the IM6100/6120 still easy to find?  I'dve thought that the supply
was exhausted by now.

Octal for me is quite familiar for 12 bits;  I can't recall ever seeing
a 12-bit word that didn't use it.  On the other hand, 16 bits is a
natural for hex--and only gets confusing when it's in octal.

--Chuck


From systems.glitch at gmail.com  Wed May  3 19:37:22 2017
From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 20:37:22 -0400
Subject: Ohio Scientific Universal RAM Board GW-OSI-RAM1
In-Reply-To: <6931a8ea-1c40-9927-2442-8d7324e528c5@sydex.com>
References: <20170503194910.fcf74e9e5feaafb1f2c2848b@gmail.com>
 <6931a8ea-1c40-9927-2442-8d7324e528c5@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20170503203722.9ef64657cecb90deeaa464ec@gmail.com>

> Is the IM6100/6120 still easy to find?  I'dve thought that the supply
> was exhausted by now.

One of my *US* parts supplier apparently has qty 500 in stock for the IM6100s! With the failure rate I've been seeing, figure at least 350 of them are viable, maybe more. I've also had a bunch come out of the woodwork from other hobbyists with this project.

> Octal for me is quite familiar for 12 bits;  I can't recall ever seeing
> a 12-bit word that didn't use it.  On the other hand, 16 bits is a
> natural for hex--and only gets confusing when it's in octal.

I want to say the only 12-bit work I've done has always been octal (PDP-8), but 8- and 16-bit has been a mix. I can switch between them, but it's kinda like using vim and $graphical_work_editor -- you use vim on a weekend long hack session and you keep hitting `ESC:wq` in $graphical_work_editor!

Thanks,
Jonathan

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed May  3 20:03:23 2017
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 21:03:23 -0400
Subject: Ohio Scientific Universal RAM Board GW-OSI-RAM1
In-Reply-To: <20170503203722.9ef64657cecb90deeaa464ec@gmail.com>
References: <20170503194910.fcf74e9e5feaafb1f2c2848b@gmail.com>
 <6931a8ea-1c40-9927-2442-8d7324e528c5@sydex.com>
 <20170503203722.9ef64657cecb90deeaa464ec@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmzOa0g=KV95KCANiJRYAgNEOw=CNzXB1WHX4aNgTUooA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 8:37 PM, Systems Glitch via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> Is the IM6100/6120 still easy to find?  I'dve thought that the supply
>> was exhausted by now.
>
> One of my *US* parts supplier apparently has qty 500 in stock for the IM6100s!

Nice.  They are definitely not as in-demand as the IM6120.

> With the failure rate I've been seeing, figure at least 350 of them are viable, maybe more. I've also had a bunch come out of the woodwork from other hobbyists with this project.

I picked up a *tube* of them about 15 years back and have never come
across a project for them (but I do have real DECmates of all the
varieties, so I need both IM6120 _and_ IM6100 chips for spares).

I have done a little with OSI machines (I've long wanted to fiddle
with a C3P because a family friend had one when I was growing up) and
have been watching the development of the your 560Z board, even if I
don't have a place to stick one at the moment.

-ethan

From cctalk at ibm51xx.net  Wed May  3 20:06:39 2017
From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 18:06:39 -0700
Subject: Elgar IPS1100 UPS
In-Reply-To: <e406d19a-7a8e-ecb9-796b-295f192b02fa@sydex.com>
References: <e406d19a-7a8e-ecb9-796b-295f192b02fa@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <006701d2c472$b0b4f210$121ed630$@net>

Chuck,

Is this still available? Any idea as to weight? Also how much did batteries usually run you? I am considering using it as the main PSU for a bunch of my vintage systems (PS/2s and 386/486 class machines). But may just be cheaper to buy a bunch of smaller ones locally...b

-Ali



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
> Guzis via cctalk
> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 11:02 AM
> To: CCtalk
> Subject: FFS: Elgar IPS1100 UPS
> 
> Much of what used to be power-hungry connectivity hardware for me has
> gone low-power, so I'm scaling back my UPS setup some.
> 
> I've got an Elgar IPS1100, nominally rated at 1KVA sine-wave continuous
> (9.2A  60 Hz 120VAC).  It's a pretty good-sized UPS, with fan cooling.
> It takes 48V in SLA cells (has an internal shelf for 8 6V 12AH ones),
> but I've always run it from 4 garden-tractor batteries.
> 
> It's pretty good-sized; about 12"x13"x15" and heavy (big transformer).
> Made in 1990, has 6 AC receptacles on the back along with an RS-232
> connector for status notification.
> 
> Back in the day, this was a pretty high-end unit; manufacture date is
> 05/90.
> 
> Yours for shipping; batteries not included.
> 
> --Chuck


From cctalk at snarc.net  Wed May  3 15:41:46 2017
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 16:41:46 -0400
Subject: VCF SE Photos
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBue0VFC4i7NrvPKL7ZewwCQAFqf79UQUEyM2fULUG1f39Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBue0VFC4i7NrvPKL7ZewwCQAFqf79UQUEyM2fULUG1f39Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ff2f9ef5-ca66-95f3-1680-8cb854ddd6e1@snarc.net>

> Here are my photos from the VCF South East April 30/May 1.  Roswell, GA
> hosted by Mims' Computer History Museum of America
>
> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=677


For anyone interested: the picture of my robot 
(http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfse-5/Koblentz_Lego_Robot.jpg) doesn't 
show the vintage computer and interface box powering it. :)  I used a 
Laser 128, reproduction Lego/Apple II card (thanks to Jon C. aka Systems 
Glitch), and original Lego Dacta TC interface box.

From jfehlinger at comcast.net  Wed May  3 16:23:46 2017
From: jfehlinger at comcast.net (JAMES FEHLINGER)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 17:23:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SimH IBM1130 GUI appears broken
In-Reply-To: <251386307.46740.1493829684195@connect.xfinity.com>
References: <251386307.46740.1493829684195@connect.xfinity.com>
Message-ID: <259258598.63006.1493846628614@connect.xfinity.com>


One additional observation:

If I turn on throttling with values ranging from

"set throttle 100k"
to
"set throttle 99%"

then **all** the Win32 development versions of IBM1130.exe I've
tried, including the ones from before Jan. 29, 2016, exhibit the
behavior that I'm interpreting as "broken" -- i.e.,
the simulator never enters a "Wait" (and drops back into
the "sim>" prompt, thereby freeing up the GUI), either after
DMS boots or after a program finishes executing.

The Win32 development executables from github I've tried have
all been running on a Windows XP machine, but I also tried the
experiment on a 64-bit Windows 7 machine using the 64-bit IBM1130.exe from
a suite of SimH executables I built myself using gcc (5.1.0) under MinGW
back in June, 2015.  That 64-bit/Win 7 version behaves the
same as the 32-bit/WinXP Win32 development builds from
on or before January 7, 2016 -- i.e., correctly if throttling
is not used, broken otherwise.

From jfehlinger at comcast.net  Wed May  3 22:31:30 2017
From: jfehlinger at comcast.net (JAMES FEHLINGER)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 23:31:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SimH IBM1130 GUI appears broken
In-Reply-To: <251386307.46740.1493829684195@connect.xfinity.com>
References: <251386307.46740.1493829684195@connect.xfinity.com>
Message-ID: <884184385.69054.1493868690145@connect.xfinity.com>

In case anybody here is interested, I've discovered a
satisfactory (to me, at least) resolution to this problem.

I downloaded Carl Claunch's DMS disk (dms32k25011403.dsk)
from bitsavers.org.

This version of DMS is built for a 1403 printer and
a 2501 card reader, whereas the DMS that comes with the software
kit from ibm1130.org is built for an 1132 printer
and a 1442 reader/punch (and you do get 32k of memory
with Carl's disk instead of 16k).

So you have to change any initial SimH command files to
reflect the new configuration; e.g. with "guijob" you
need to add:

set cpu 32k
set prt 1403
set cr 2501

Also, any sample Fortran programs need to have their IOCS
control records changed.  I.e., "1132 PRINTER" becomes
"1043 PRINTER" and "CARD" becomes "2501 READER", as per the
table on p. 41 of the Reference Guide document from ibm1130.org.
Additionally, the Fortran logical unit numbers in your
Fortran programs need to change as per the table on p. 41:
"READ(2, ...)" becomes "READ(8, ...)" and
"WRITE(3, ...)" becomes "WRITE(5, ...)".

Using this DMS disk (and with the appropriate changes to configuration
files and Fortran decks), the latest SimH Win32 build (from May 2, 2017)
works fine -- the simulator goes into Wait and allows access to the
GUI following a boot of DMS and after a job finishes executing.

The 2250 Graphics Display Unit and plotter sample programs from
ibm1130.org also work, with appropriate changes to their config
files.

You still can't use CPU throttling (to slow down the register light show)
unless you're willing to use the unrealistic "IMM STOP", load card reader,
"boot dsk" sequence to run a program.

I also haven't been able to get Carl Claunch's Lunar Lander
program (there's a download link in an IBM1130 Google group post)
to get past its initial instructions (on the console) and
first couple of prompts for input.  Seems to have something to do
with not reading properly from the keyboard.  But that's another story.  ;->

From bobalan at sbcglobal.net  Thu May  4 00:04:02 2017
From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 22:04:02 -0700
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
In-Reply-To: <B2FD287D-E36C-45B2-BC14-F1A861DE1EFC@gmail.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
 <B2FD287D-E36C-45B2-BC14-F1A861DE1EFC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <719b6c9b-ad4f-c8de-91ab-1ffd1e464c87@sbcglobal.net>

I use a solid state one, an older version of this:
http://www.phasetechnologies.com/downloads/products/phase-perfect/pt330specs.pdf

Bought on ebay quite a few years ago.

I also have a small Phoenix rotary phase converter, also from ebay. This 
one seems to have unbalanced outputs.
I believe it is for motor loads only.

Bob



On 5/3/2017 1:23 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote:
> Let me know what you come up with for the 3 phase converter solution. I have the exact same problem right now to provide power for my 3 3420 tapes and the 3803 controller. Also have 220V 50A single phase coming in the shop (er, garage), courtesy of the EV charger.
> Marc
>
> On Apr 30, 2017, at 9:38 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past weekend
> from where it was currently stored to my shop.  Pictures are here:
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
>
> As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for this purpose.
> Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop.  Some early tasks will be:
>    * I have to verify that I have everything.  Even if I missed some items, they won?t be
>      scrapped.  I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify that I didn?t
>      leave anything behind.  I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
>   * I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power to run the
>     peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase coming
>     into my shop.
>
> Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet.  ;-)
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>


-- 
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org


From earl at baugh.org  Thu May  4 00:19:30 2017
From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 01:19:30 -0400
Subject: VCF SE Photos
Message-ID: <CAAucK2WqUZcV8c7mvV=Do94bYMCaYV20nPsCCwAHRsyhCKGQJQ@mail.gmail.com>

> Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 08:03:19 -0400
> Subject: VCF SE Photos
>
> Here are my photos from the VCF South East April 30/May 1.  Roswell, GA
> hosted by Mims' Computer History Museum of America
>
> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=677
>
>
Just to clarify something here about VCF South East... the Computer Museum
of America
(that's the official name) provides the venue for the event, but the
Atlanta Historical Computing
Society (AHCS) actually recruits and covers the expense for having the
speakers at the show
and also recruits and organizes all the exhibits of the VCF proper (aside
from the two professionally
constructed and very informative exhibits that the Computer Museum
provides).

In the first year the Computer Museum of America did recruit the speakers,
but AHCS has
done it since.    And the AHCS has always recruited and organized the
exhibits for the VCF proper.

Just want to make both of the partners in this endeavour get proper credit
here.

Earl

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Thu May  4 01:26:27 2017
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Wed, 03 May 2017 23:26:27 -0700
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
In-Reply-To: <719b6c9b-ad4f-c8de-91ab-1ffd1e464c87@sbcglobal.net>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
 <B2FD287D-E36C-45B2-BC14-F1A861DE1EFC@gmail.com>
 <719b6c9b-ad4f-c8de-91ab-1ffd1e464c87@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <97D05D98-B96C-4B4D-B82D-8F334C61FC95@gmail.com>

Bob,

Thanks, that looks just about perfect. Solid state, true sinusoid 3 phase, 30A continuous but can do 140A for 4 seconds - seems made to power a big bunch of vacuum column tapes.

Marc

 

From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: Bob Rosenbloom <bobalan at sbcglobal.net>, "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Date: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 at 10:04 PM
To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter

 

I use a solid state one, an older version of this:

http://www.phasetechnologies.com/downloads/products/phase-perfect/pt330specs.pdf

 

Bought on ebay quite a few years ago.

 

I also have a small Phoenix rotary phase converter, also from ebay. This 

one seems to have unbalanced outputs.

I believe it is for motor loads only.

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

 


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu May  4 06:39:52 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 07:39:52 -0400
Subject: VCF SE Photos
In-Reply-To: <CAAucK2WqUZcV8c7mvV=Do94bYMCaYV20nPsCCwAHRsyhCKGQJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAucK2WqUZcV8c7mvV=Do94bYMCaYV20nPsCCwAHRsyhCKGQJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueObDUbmyetKQjDL_DBczp5SGfHayyeM4rVSMd+YqhL8Q@mail.gmail.com>

I will update the reference about the event sponsor etc.  As far as the
Robot pic goes, there are more photos of evan's exhibit, link at thr bottom.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On May 4, 2017 1:20 AM, "Earl Baugh via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> > Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 08:03:19 -0400
> > Subject: VCF SE Photos
> >
> > Here are my photos from the VCF South East April 30/May 1.  Roswell, GA
> > hosted by Mims' Computer History Museum of America
> >
> > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=677
> >
> >
> Just to clarify something here about VCF South East... the Computer Museum
> of America
> (that's the official name) provides the venue for the event, but the
> Atlanta Historical Computing
> Society (AHCS) actually recruits and covers the expense for having the
> speakers at the show
> and also recruits and organizes all the exhibits of the VCF proper (aside
> from the two professionally
> constructed and very informative exhibits that the Computer Museum
> provides).
>
> In the first year the Computer Museum of America did recruit the speakers,
> but AHCS has
> done it since.    And the AHCS has always recruited and organized the
> exhibits for the VCF proper.
>
> Just want to make both of the partners in this endeavour get proper credit
> here.
>
> Earl
>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu May  4 07:45:12 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 08:45:12 -0400
Subject: VCF SE Photos
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBueObDUbmyetKQjDL_DBczp5SGfHayyeM4rVSMd+YqhL8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAucK2WqUZcV8c7mvV=Do94bYMCaYV20nPsCCwAHRsyhCKGQJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBueObDUbmyetKQjDL_DBczp5SGfHayyeM4rVSMd+YqhL8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufmQLB0+78h89SCVZtQkpKu0B3=bjqXUaHscANjnKB0Bg@mail.gmail.com>

I have updated the thread to address comments.  I also assigned Alan
Hightower to the Tandy exhibit, I had it marked as "whoseisthis.jpg".

Thread:
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=677

Alan Hightower's exhibit
http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfse-5/Hightower_Tandy.jpg

Directly to the pics:
http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfse-5/

I have a lot of video footage and I am eager to get it mixed down for
youtube asap.

Bill

On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 7:39 AM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:

> I will update the reference about the event sponsor etc.  As far as the
> Robot pic goes, there are more photos of evan's exhibit, link at thr bottom.
>
> Bill Degnan
> twitter: billdeg
> vintagecomputer.net
> On May 4, 2017 1:20 AM, "Earl Baugh via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> > Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 08:03:19 -0400
>> > Subject: VCF SE Photos
>> >
>> > Here are my photos from the VCF South East April 30/May 1.  Roswell, GA
>> > hosted by Mims' Computer History Museum of America
>> >
>> > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=677
>> >
>> >
>> Just to clarify something here about VCF South East... the Computer Museum
>> of America
>> (that's the official name) provides the venue for the event, but the
>> Atlanta Historical Computing
>> Society (AHCS) actually recruits and covers the expense for having the
>> speakers at the show
>> and also recruits and organizes all the exhibits of the VCF proper (aside
>> from the two professionally
>> constructed and very informative exhibits that the Computer Museum
>> provides).
>>
>> In the first year the Computer Museum of America did recruit the speakers,
>> but AHCS has
>> done it since.    And the AHCS has always recruited and organized the
>> exhibits for the VCF proper.
>>
>> Just want to make both of the partners in this endeavour get proper credit
>> here.
>>
>> Earl
>>
>

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Thu May  4 08:09:59 2017
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 08:09:59 -0500
Subject: VCF SE Photos
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBufmQLB0+78h89SCVZtQkpKu0B3=bjqXUaHscANjnKB0Bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAucK2WqUZcV8c7mvV=Do94bYMCaYV20nPsCCwAHRsyhCKGQJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBueObDUbmyetKQjDL_DBczp5SGfHayyeM4rVSMd+YqhL8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufmQLB0+78h89SCVZtQkpKu0B3=bjqXUaHscANjnKB0Bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUxjndNsRcw2t8yGiqpEZg3fg6mFe2xx+9ZPFjG_Eq-J6A@mail.gmail.com>

On May 4, 2017 7:45 AM, "william degnan via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

I have updated the thread to address comments.  I also assigned Alan
Hightower to the Tandy exhibit, I had it marked as "whoseisthis.jpg".

Thread:
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=677

Alan Hightower's exhibit
http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfse-5/Hightower_Tandy.jpg

Directly to the pics:
http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfse-5/

I have a lot of video footage and I am eager to get it mixed down for
youtube asap.

Bill


Bill,

The picture entitled Owen_HP-2116C.jpg is Jim Mahaffey's homebuilt
6100-based PDP-8 clone. I didn't end up displaying the 2116C after all.

Thanks!

Kyle

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Thu May  4 09:36:55 2017
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 07:36:55 -0700
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
In-Reply-To: <97D05D98-B96C-4B4D-B82D-8F334C61FC95@gmail.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
 <B2FD287D-E36C-45B2-BC14-F1A861DE1EFC@gmail.com>
 <719b6c9b-ad4f-c8de-91ab-1ffd1e464c87@sbcglobal.net>
 <97D05D98-B96C-4B4D-B82D-8F334C61FC95@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EAD55585-E436-407D-A571-E9176A98C3AC@shiresoft.com>

Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v 3-phase currents and/or HP?  IBM?s docs all specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase converters (other than what Bob posted) seem to specify HP.  If I?m going to spend serious coin on a phase converter (I think I found it online for ~$3k?ouch!), I want to make sure it?s sized properly.

Thanks.

TTFN - Guy

> On May 3, 2017, at 11:26 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Bob,
> 
> Thanks, that looks just about perfect. Solid state, true sinusoid 3 phase, 30A continuous but can do 140A for 4 seconds - seems made to power a big bunch of vacuum column tapes.
> 
> Marc
> 
> 
> 
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Reply-To: Bob Rosenbloom <bobalan at sbcglobal.net>, "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Date: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 at 10:04 PM
> To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
> 
> 
> 
> I use a solid state one, an older version of this:
> 
> http://www.phasetechnologies.com/downloads/products/phase-perfect/pt330specs.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Bought on ebay quite a few years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> I also have a small Phoenix rotary phase converter, also from ebay. This 
> 
> one seems to have unbalanced outputs.
> 
> I believe it is for motor loads only.
> 
> 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Thu May  4 10:04:14 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 08:04:14 -0700
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
In-Reply-To: <EAD55585-E436-407D-A571-E9176A98C3AC@shiresoft.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
 <B2FD287D-E36C-45B2-BC14-F1A861DE1EFC@gmail.com>
 <719b6c9b-ad4f-c8de-91ab-1ffd1e464c87@sbcglobal.net>
 <97D05D98-B96C-4B4D-B82D-8F334C61FC95@gmail.com>
 <EAD55585-E436-407D-A571-E9176A98C3AC@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <94fdcffd-c12b-ddc0-5f03-5d8761bce2e9@jwsss.com>



On 5/4/2017 7:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
> Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v 3-phase currents and/or HP?  IBM?s docs all specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase converters (other than what Bob posted) seem to specify HP.  If I?m going to spend serious coin on a phase converter (I think I found it online for ~$3k?ouch!), I want to make sure it?s sized properly.
>
> Thanks.
>
> TTFN - Guy
You will also need to get the motor start information, or you will 
vaporize a phase converter.

Another possible approach that a friend is taking is to take three 
single phase identical UPS system and synch the phases of the three 
converter output circuits to proper three phase.

He's made up one from three junk APC units I've got.  I can forward info 
if you would like on this approach from him.  One thing that helps is he 
snagged and maintained the drawings of all of the APC and other output 
circuits over the years and has good info on how to pull this off.

The quadrature power will be something to deal with on your three phase 
loads, but you may be able to run quite a bit of single phase hardware 
directly off of the mains.

thanks
Jim

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Thu May  4 10:36:45 2017
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 08:36:45 -0700
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
In-Reply-To: <94fdcffd-c12b-ddc0-5f03-5d8761bce2e9@jwsss.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
 <B2FD287D-E36C-45B2-BC14-F1A861DE1EFC@gmail.com>
 <719b6c9b-ad4f-c8de-91ab-1ffd1e464c87@sbcglobal.net>
 <97D05D98-B96C-4B4D-B82D-8F334C61FC95@gmail.com>
 <EAD55585-E436-407D-A571-E9176A98C3AC@shiresoft.com>
 <94fdcffd-c12b-ddc0-5f03-5d8761bce2e9@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <52061A57-B8B3-427E-9CF7-D8CE69279C00@shiresoft.com>


> On May 4, 2017, at 8:04 AM, jim stephens via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/4/2017 7:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
>> Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v 3-phase currents and/or HP?  IBM?s docs all specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase converters (other than what Bob posted) seem to specify HP.  If I?m going to spend serious coin on a phase converter (I think I found it online for ~$3k?ouch!), I want to make sure it?s sized properly.
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> TTFN - Guy
> You will also need to get the motor start information, or you will vaporize a phase converter.
> 
> Another possible approach that a friend is taking is to take three single phase identical UPS system and synch the phases of the three converter output circuits to proper three phase.
> 
> He's made up one from three junk APC units I've got.  I can forward info if you would like on this approach from him.  One thing that helps is he snagged and maintained the drawings of all of the APC and other output circuits over the years and has good info on how to pull this off.
> 
> The quadrature power will be something to deal with on your three phase loads, but you may be able to run quite a bit of single phase hardware directly off of the mains.
> 

OK, that?s not helping.  Here?s what I have (from IBM site planning docs GC22-7064-10 and GC22-7069-2):
3340-A2 DASD: 2.2 kVA 3-phase
3340-B2 DASD: 1.7 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3340-A2)
3803 Tape Control unit: 1.8 kVA 3-phase
3420 Tape drive: 2.9 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3803) (x2)
2821 control unit: 1.4 kVA 3-phase
1403N1 Printer: 1.5 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821)
2540 card reader/punch: 1.2 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821)

So I have 3 potential power feeds:
DASD: 3.9 kVA
Tape: 10.5 kVA
I/O: 4.1 kVA

For a total of 18.5 kVA

So the several $1000 question is how do the kVA?s map into 208v 3-phase amps?  Depending upon how that works out I need to figure out if 2/3 converters make sense or just one big one.

My simple minded conversion is to take the 18.5kVA, multiply by 1000 and divide by 208.  That gives me just shy of 90A.  Do I then divide by 3 to get A/phase?  If so, then it?s 30A per phase which seems reasonable.  But I don?t know if that?s the correct formulation.

TTFN - Guy


From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May  4 10:54:30 2017
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 04 May 2017 10:54:30 -0500
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
In-Reply-To: <EAD55585-E436-407D-A571-E9176A98C3AC@shiresoft.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
 <B2FD287D-E36C-45B2-BC14-F1A861DE1EFC@gmail.com>
 <719b6c9b-ad4f-c8de-91ab-1ffd1e464c87@sbcglobal.net>
 <97D05D98-B96C-4B4D-B82D-8F334C61FC95@gmail.com>
 <EAD55585-E436-407D-A571-E9176A98C3AC@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <590B4EB6.2030705@pico-systems.com>

On 05/04/2017 09:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
> Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v 3-phase currents and/or HP?  IBM?s docs all specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase converters (other than what Bob posted) seem to specify HP.  If I?m going to spend serious coin on a phase converter (I think I found it online for ~$3k?ouch!), I want to make sure it?s sized properly.
>
>
Line current times voltage give you KVA per line.  Then, 
multiply by 1.732 to get total KVA.  KW / .7457 give HP, not 
counting losses or power factor.  You don't actually need a 
3-phase source, you only need to generate one new phase
(although if the 4331, etc. want 208, you probably don't 
want to feed it 240 V).  But, you DO need a true sine wave 
source, and VFDs do not produce sine waves, they put out 400 
V PWM waveforms that look fine to a motor, but not good at 
all to electronic loads.

It is possible that a hefty used VFD with an appropriate 
filter would turn it into a nice sine wave at lower cost.  
For multiple KVA loads, that might be a more economical way 
to go, if you don't mind creating such a filter.  (Probably 
be good to put a transformer between the VFD/filter and the 
computers, so the line could be balanced around neutral, too.)

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May  4 10:59:04 2017
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 04 May 2017 10:59:04 -0500
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
In-Reply-To: <52061A57-B8B3-427E-9CF7-D8CE69279C00@shiresoft.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
 <B2FD287D-E36C-45B2-BC14-F1A861DE1EFC@gmail.com>
 <719b6c9b-ad4f-c8de-91ab-1ffd1e464c87@sbcglobal.net>
 <97D05D98-B96C-4B4D-B82D-8F334C61FC95@gmail.com>
 <EAD55585-E436-407D-A571-E9176A98C3AC@shiresoft.com>
 <94fdcffd-c12b-ddc0-5f03-5d8761bce2e9@jwsss.com>
 <52061A57-B8B3-427E-9CF7-D8CE69279C00@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <590B4FC8.6090807@pico-systems.com>

On 05/04/2017 10:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
>> On May 4, 2017, at 8:04 AM, jim stephens via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/4/2017 7:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
>>> Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v 3-phase currents and/or HP?  IBM?s docs all specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase converters (other than what Bob posted) seem to specify HP.  If I?m going to spend serious coin on a phase converter (I think I found it online for ~$3k?ouch!), I want to make sure it?s sized properly.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> TTFN - Guy
>> You will also need to get the motor start information, or you will vaporize a phase converter.
>>
>> Another possible approach that a friend is taking is to take three single phase identical UPS system and synch the phases of the three converter output circuits to proper three phase.
>>
>> He's made up one from three junk APC units I've got.  I can forward info if you would like on this approach from him.  One thing that helps is he snagged and maintained the drawings of all of the APC and other output circuits over the years and has good info on how to pull this off.
>>
>> The quadrature power will be something to deal with on your three phase loads, but you may be able to run quite a bit of single phase hardware directly off of the mains.
>>
> OK, that?s not helping.  Here?s what I have (from IBM site planning docs GC22-7064-10 and GC22-7069-2):
> 3340-A2 DASD: 2.2 kVA 3-phase
> 3340-B2 DASD: 1.7 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3340-A2)
> 3803 Tape Control unit: 1.8 kVA 3-phase
> 3420 Tape drive: 2.9 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3803) (x2)
> 2821 control unit: 1.4 kVA 3-phase
> 1403N1 Printer: 1.5 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821)
> 2540 card reader/punch: 1.2 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821)
>
> So I have 3 potential power feeds:
> DASD: 3.9 kVA
> Tape: 10.5 kVA
> I/O: 4.1 kVA
>
> For a total of 18.5 kVA
>
> So the several $1000 question is how do the kVA?s map into 208v 3-phase amps?
18.5 KVA /208 = 88.94
88.94 / 1.732 = 51 A

Since this is given as KVA, it should include the power factor.
>    Depending upon how that works out I need to figure out if 2/3 converters make sense or just one big one.
>
> My simple minded conversion is to take the 18.5kVA, multiply by 1000 and divide by 208.  That gives me just shy of 90A.  Do I then divide by 3 to get A/phase?  If so, then it?s 30A per phase which seems reasonable.  But I don?t know if that?s the correct formulation.
It isn't.  See above.  A lot of this is circulating current, 
so the real power draw from the mains will be less.  Still, 
most likely over 10 real-power KW from your 240 V 
single-phase mains.

Jon

Jon

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu May  4 11:05:49 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 12:05:49 -0400
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
In-Reply-To: <EAD55585-E436-407D-A571-E9176A98C3AC@shiresoft.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
 <B2FD287D-E36C-45B2-BC14-F1A861DE1EFC@gmail.com>
 <719b6c9b-ad4f-c8de-91ab-1ffd1e464c87@sbcglobal.net>
 <97D05D98-B96C-4B4D-B82D-8F334C61FC95@gmail.com>
 <EAD55585-E436-407D-A571-E9176A98C3AC@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <E2ED06CD-1714-48FB-8880-906986A9966A@comcast.net>

kVA is simply kilovolts times amps.  It is roughly a synonym for kW, except that it probably ignores the phase angle.  So for resistive loads, kVA == kW but for inductive or capacitive loads, kVA would be larger.

1 hp == 746 W.  But when people talk about phase converter hp limits, they are looking not just at the steady state load but also at the startup peak current, which is a fairly substantial multiple of the steady state load.

For your application, you probably have some motor loads and possibly some others (power supplies).  If they are mostly motor loads, use the steady state kVA spec and convert that back to hp by dividing by 0.746.  Alternatively, if the converter has a rated steady state load, match that against the steady state power spec for the machine.  The peak current handling of the converter will take care of either motor startup peaks, or power supply inrush current.

	paul

> On May 4, 2017, at 10:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v 3-phase currents and/or HP?  IBM?s docs all specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase converters (other than what Bob posted) seem to specify HP.  If I?m going to spend serious coin on a phase converter (I think I found it online for ~$3k?ouch!), I want to make sure it?s sized properly.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> TTFN - Guy


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Thu May  4 11:10:55 2017
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 09:10:55 -0700
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
In-Reply-To: <590B4FC8.6090807@pico-systems.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
 <B2FD287D-E36C-45B2-BC14-F1A861DE1EFC@gmail.com>
 <719b6c9b-ad4f-c8de-91ab-1ffd1e464c87@sbcglobal.net>
 <97D05D98-B96C-4B4D-B82D-8F334C61FC95@gmail.com>
 <EAD55585-E436-407D-A571-E9176A98C3AC@shiresoft.com>
 <94fdcffd-c12b-ddc0-5f03-5d8761bce2e9@jwsss.com>
 <52061A57-B8B3-427E-9CF7-D8CE69279C00@shiresoft.com>
 <590B4FC8.6090807@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <59269CDA-31D8-4AD2-BD67-9E5F54653A93@shiresoft.com>


> On May 4, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
> 
> On 05/04/2017 10:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
>>> 
>> OK, that?s not helping.  Here?s what I have (from IBM site planning docs GC22-7064-10 and GC22-7069-2):
>> 3340-A2 DASD: 2.2 kVA 3-phase
>> 3340-B2 DASD: 1.7 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3340-A2)
>> 3803 Tape Control unit: 1.8 kVA 3-phase
>> 3420 Tape drive: 2.9 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3803) (x2)
>> 2821 control unit: 1.4 kVA 3-phase
>> 1403N1 Printer: 1.5 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821)
>> 2540 card reader/punch: 1.2 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821)
>> 
>> So I have 3 potential power feeds:
>> DASD: 3.9 kVA
>> Tape: 10.5 kVA
>> I/O: 4.1 kVA
>> 
>> For a total of 18.5 kVA
>> 
>> So the several $1000 question is how do the kVA?s map into 208v 3-phase amps?
> 18.5 KVA /208 = 88.94
> 88.94 / 1.732 = 51 A
> 
> Since this is given as KVA, it should include the power factor.
>>   Depending upon how that works out I need to figure out if 2/3 converters make sense or just one big one.
>> 
>> My simple minded conversion is to take the 18.5kVA, multiply by 1000 and divide by 208.  That gives me just shy of 90A.  Do I then divide by 3 to get A/phase?  If so, then it?s 30A per phase which seems reasonable.  But I don?t know if that?s the correct formulation.
> It isn't.  See above.  A lot of this is circulating current, so the real power draw from the mains will be less.  Still, most likely over 10 real-power KW from your 240 V single-phase mains.

Thanks.

So if I want to run it off of one converter, that needs to be able to supply 51A.  If I split it, then I would end up with:
Tape: 30A
DASD: 11A
I/O: 12A

So at this point it comes down to cost.  If I can find one that can supply 60A that?s reasonable that would work.  Otherwise I?d likely get either 2 30A converters or 1 30A and 2 15A (if they come in those sizes).  ;-)  I?ll just have to figure out what makes the most sense cost wise.

Thanks.

TTFN - Guy


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu May  4 11:17:09 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 12:17:09 -0400
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
In-Reply-To: <590B4EB6.2030705@pico-systems.com>
References: <701C77C2-0376-4E4C-BA15-AEB4C6B63EF0@shiresoft.com>
 <B2FD287D-E36C-45B2-BC14-F1A861DE1EFC@gmail.com>
 <719b6c9b-ad4f-c8de-91ab-1ffd1e464c87@sbcglobal.net>
 <97D05D98-B96C-4B4D-B82D-8F334C61FC95@gmail.com>
 <EAD55585-E436-407D-A571-E9176A98C3AC@shiresoft.com>
 <590B4EB6.2030705@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <07006AE0-592F-4137-9805-631441C08951@comcast.net>


> On May 4, 2017, at 11:54 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ...  But, you DO need a true sine wave source, and VFDs do not produce sine waves, they put out 400 V PWM waveforms that look fine to a motor, but not good at all to electronic loads.

I wonder how true that is.  Consider that (for machines of this era) power supplies are probably transformer input, to a rectifier and then a filter.  The transformer would smooth out the VFD output pulses, and whatever is left would definitely be removed by the output filter.  The only question I can see is whether the rectifier diodes have enough reverse voltage margin to deal with whatever peaks pass through the transformer.  (The transformer itself certainly will, given normal insulation design/test practice for power transformers.)

If the power supply is a swiching regulator, the details are slightly different but the overall picture is similar.  Then you begin with a rectifier, which would have to be able to deal with the input spikes, followed by some amount of filtering.  Once past that I don't see any further issues.

An electronic circuit that looks at the incoming AC waveform directly would certainly have issues with a VFD, but I can't think of too many examples of that.  A KW-11/L is one exception that comes to mind... :-)

	paul


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu May  4 11:29:21 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 12:29:21 -0400
Subject: VCF SE Photos
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUxjndNsRcw2t8yGiqpEZg3fg6mFe2xx+9ZPFjG_Eq-J6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAucK2WqUZcV8c7mvV=Do94bYMCaYV20nPsCCwAHRsyhCKGQJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBueObDUbmyetKQjDL_DBczp5SGfHayyeM4rVSMd+YqhL8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufmQLB0+78h89SCVZtQkpKu0B3=bjqXUaHscANjnKB0Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUxjndNsRcw2t8yGiqpEZg3fg6mFe2xx+9ZPFjG_Eq-J6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBud_AX-VpbmCOL2aBM-3REWq0pMeqLNzM=ZmR0TDsQv_8Q@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Bill,
>
> The picture entitled Owen_HP-2116C.jpg is Jim Mahaffey's homebuilt
> 6100-based PDP-8 clone. I didn't end up displaying the 2116C after all.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kyle

Ah.  It did not look like an HP, but I figured it was a modified under the
hood version somehow, thanks
B

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu May  4 11:53:22 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 09:53:22 -0700
Subject: Ohio Scientific Universal RAM Board GW-OSI-RAM1
In-Reply-To: <20170503203722.9ef64657cecb90deeaa464ec@gmail.com>
References: <20170503194910.fcf74e9e5feaafb1f2c2848b@gmail.com>
 <6931a8ea-1c40-9927-2442-8d7324e528c5@sydex.com>
 <20170503203722.9ef64657cecb90deeaa464ec@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7442b55b-9b1e-4136-8b2b-fb037dec24b9@sydex.com>

On 05/03/2017 05:37 PM, Systems Glitch wrote:

> I want to say the only 12-bit work I've done has always been octal
> (PDP-8), but 8- and 16-bit has been a mix. I can switch between them,
> but it's kinda like using vim and $graphical_work_editor -- you use
> vim on a weekend long hack session and you keep hitting `ESC:wq` in
> $graphical_work_editor!

Sometimes the choice of radix makes sense.  At one point in my career, I
was reading both 60 bit octal dumps and 64 bit hex dumps.  In both
cases, the radix made sense.  The 60 bit words had a natural bit
grouping of 3 (6-bit characters, 6 bit opcode, 3 bit register numbers)
and the 64-bit one also was suited to hex (8 bit opocdes and register
numbers as well as characters).  The only gotcha was that addresses were
bit addresses, so that calculating byte addresses with a byte index
involved a 3 bit shift and word addresses involved a 6 bit shift.
Halfwords involved a 5 bit shift, which didn't work for any common radix.

--Chuck


From jfehlinger at comcast.net  Thu May  4 09:33:45 2017
From: jfehlinger at comcast.net (JAMES FEHLINGER)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 10:33:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SimH IBM1130 GUI appears broken
In-Reply-To: <884184385.69054.1493868690145@connect.xfinity.com>
References: <251386307.46740.1493829684195@connect.xfinity.com>
 <884184385.69054.1493868690145@connect.xfinity.com>
Message-ID: <1412510642.55078.1493908427115@connect.xfinity.com>

I wrote, last night:

> In case anybody here is interested, I've discovered a
> satisfactory (to me, at least) resolution to this problem.
>
> I downloaded Carl Claunch's DMS disk (dms32k25011403.dsk)
> from bitsavers.org. . .
>
> Using this DMS disk (and with the appropriate changes to configuration
> files and Fortran decks), the latest SimH Win32 build (from May 2, 2017)
> works fine -- the simulator goes into Wait and allows access to the
> GUI following a boot of DMS and after a job finishes executing.

No, it doesn't after all.  By the time I got dms32k25011403.dsk working, I'd
managed to confuse myself about which SimH executable I was running.

The new DMS disk makes no difference as far as the GUI problem is
concerned -- the GUI only works as expected (and as described in
the Reference Guide from ibm1130.org) for simh-4.0-Beta--2016-01-07-e8ea427d
(and prior) Windows builds (and with no throttling, in all cases).

Sorry for the confusion.

From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk  Thu May  4 11:30:37 2017
From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson)
Date: Thu, 04 May 2017 17:30:37 +0100
Subject: Reviving VT220?
In-Reply-To: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk>
References: <87pofwc1ym.fsf@escher.rhwyd.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8760hgwpn6.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>

I am taking another look at this.

In this VT220 there is a "Billion" transformer attached to the side
which gives AC to the board via a two pin connector. My multimeter
(which is supposedly true RMS) tells me that there is 246v going into
the transformer (fine, I'm in the UK) and 40v coming out. Is this the
right voltage that the board should be getting? Maybe it is supposed to
be 110v. Would setting the switch on the back to 110v bypass this
allowing me to try it from a 110v transformer?

The logic side of the terminal is fine. I can hook it up to a TV and use
it, but there is no high voltage to power the tube.

The layout of the board in this terminal is slightly different to what
is shown in the block diagram in the schematics, but of the circuit
diagram appears to match for the most part.

Getting a bit confused here.

Thanks,

Aaron.




Aaron Jackson via cctalk writes:

> Hi all,
>
> A colleague and I are trying to get a VT220 working again as it recently
> died on us. We are hoping to set up a few items for the mid-80s
> (including this terminal) to show the graduands what it would have been
> like if they were doing their CompSci degree 30 years ago.
>
> It looks to me like the flyback is dead. There is a lot of soot and
> there looks like there is some damage to the top of the transformer,
> better seen in the second image.
>
> http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj/sparse/flyback1.jpg
> http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj/sparse/flyback2.jpg
>
> The terminal powers on and does the usual beeping but nothing is
> displayed on the screen. Does anyone have any advice about what to do
> here? Are there any sources of compatible flyback transformers?
>
> We have a second VT220 which exhibits the same behaviour, hopefully for
> a different reason so we can try and cobble two into one.
>
> Any thoughts / advice would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aaron.

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu May  4 16:41:20 2017
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 09:41:20 +1200
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
Message-ID: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,

Just tying up some unfinished business.  Right at the beginning of this
thread I said...

>Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8
inch floppy disks.
>They want to see what?s on them, or at least to archive them.
>They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
was used to write the files.
>They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely.

Now that I've got the 8 inch disk drive up and running and have some
experience with it, I thought I've give these disks a go.

It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
scoured the Internet for something that might read them.

Eventually I found Hunter Goatley's v 1.3 of Paul Nankervis's ODS2 at
http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?ODS2 .  This program
reads VMS disks from PCs.  The zip had a Win32 executable included.
The executable seems to run ok in the DOS window of the Win98 machine I've
attached the drive too, in that the Command Line Interface seems fine and I
can type and issue commands.  However, I've had no luck with mounting the
disk in ODS2.  The error I get (consistent over all disks) is:

"Sector 1 read failed 87
PHYIO Error 500 Block 1 Length 512 (ASPI: 0 0 0)
Mount failed with 500"

I may have reached the limit of my skill envelope.  Before I abandon the
task and suggest to these researchers to consider sending these disks to
Chuck C., does anyone know...

1. What that error means?
2. If it would make a difference that I'm running the Win32 exe in Windows
98, rather than NT, 2000, XP etc.?   The documentation doesn't mention
Windows 98, however the program does start to a CLI without a problem.
3. I'm not sure ODS2 was built with 8 inch disks in mind?  Would it make a
difference?  CP/M disks in the 8 inch drive can be accessed and
read/written to under MS-DOS by the machine  I have the drive hooked up to,
so I don't think it's a hardware issue.
4. How likely is it that disks from a 1985 VAX is in some weird proprietary
format OTHER than VMS?

Any comments most welcome.

Thanks!

Terry

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu May  4 17:24:43 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 15:24:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041452120.24869@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 5 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>> They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely.
> It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
> scoured the Internet for something that might read them.

I don't know anything.    but, I will point out a few things to look into.

> Eventually I found Hunter Goatley's v 1.3 of Paul Nankervis's ODS2 at
> http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?ODS2 .  This program
> "Sector 1 read failed 87
> PHYIO Error 500 Block 1 Length 512 (ASPI: 0 0 0)
> Mount failed with 500"
> Chuck G., does anyone know...
> 1. What that error means?
so far, only that it failed on what was probably the first sector that it 
tried.   "87" is probably not meningful to anybody except VMS
"PHYIO"  MIGHT mean physical I/O
"500" also isn't applicable to other systems.

> 2. If it would make a difference that I'm 
> running the Win32 exe in Windows 98, rather than NT, 2000, XP etc.?

It is more likely to be successful in 98 ("real mode")

> 3. I'm not sure ODS2 was built with 8 inch disks in mind?
No idea.  But, other than NEC PC98, machines generally do NOT use the same 
format specs on 8:, 5.25, 3.5

> Would it make a difference?
absolutely.
If there are more than one format available, then the read program might 
1) ASSUME one of the lot
2) have options to choose
3) attempt to detect what it sees.
Besides ODS-2, what about ODS-1 and ODS-5?
Find somebody who knows VMS, and find out what the options were.

> CP/M disks in the 8 inch drive can be accessed and read/written to under 
> MS-DOS by the machine I have the drive hooked up to, so I don't think 
> it's a hardware issue.
Does your system handle single density?  (some FDCs do; some don't)

> 4. How likely is it that disks from a 1985 VAX is in some weird 
> proprietary format OTHER than VMS?

quite possible.  For example, they might have, at some point in the past, 
used a program under VMS to copy their data to some other format that they 
thought might be handy, such as SSSD CP/M!


Using IMD, or other tools, can you determine the density, bytes per 
sector, and sectors per track of the disks (try at least 2)
Also, is the data recorded single sided, or both sides?

If you can read it with IMD, then you can start wading through content 
within sectors to get more clues about what's there.



From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu May  4 17:30:09 2017
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 10:30:09 +1200
Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFJlOiBFeHRyYWN0aW5nIGZpbGVzIG9mZiDigJx1bmtub3du4oCdIDggaW5jaCBkaQ==?=
 =?UTF-8?B?c2tzLiBBbnkgdGhvdWdodHPigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041452120.24869@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041452120.24869@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CACaZng=JvKPCwq64VKTXFg4koth1UwBw4ZHw+5y9e3EnwYBtbA@mail.gmail.com>

>Using IMD, or other tools, can you determine the density, bytes per
sector, and sectors per track of the disks (try at least 2)
>Also, is the data recorded single sided, or both sides?

>If you can read it with IMD, then you can start wading through content
within sectors to get more clues about what's there.

Thanks Fred,

Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first things I tried.  Couldn't
do it at all.  Tons of errors, no tracks could be read.  IMD didn't
recognise the layout at all.

All the disks I tried were like this.

Terry

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu May  4 17:31:01 2017
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 10:31:01 +1200
Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFJlOiBFeHRyYWN0aW5nIGZpbGVzIG9mZiDigJx1bmtub3du4oCdIDggaW5jaCBkaQ==?=
 =?UTF-8?B?c2tzLiBBbnkgdGhvdWdodHPigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <CACaZng=JvKPCwq64VKTXFg4koth1UwBw4ZHw+5y9e3EnwYBtbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041452120.24869@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZng=JvKPCwq64VKTXFg4koth1UwBw4ZHw+5y9e3EnwYBtbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACaZng=mUo0eFji+3kqBABB-81OeuuSwYODJkCd4HqzmatUyWg@mail.gmail.com>

>Does your system handle single density?  (some FDCs do; some don't)

Oh, yes it does.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu May  4 17:35:51 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 15:35:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFJlOiBFeHRyYWN0aW5nIGZpbGVzIG9mZiDigJx1bmtub3du4oCdIDggaW5jaCBkaQ==?=
 =?UTF-8?B?c2tzLiBBbnkgdGhvdWdodHPigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <CACaZng=JvKPCwq64VKTXFg4koth1UwBw4ZHw+5y9e3EnwYBtbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041452120.24869@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZng=JvKPCwq64VKTXFg4koth1UwBw4ZHw+5y9e3EnwYBtbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041532010.24869@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 5 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
> Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first things I tried.  Couldn't
> do it at all.  Tons of errors, no tracks could be read.  IMD didn't
> recognise the layout at all.
> All the disks I tried were like this.

Then, either it is impossible to read with the PC FDC, or we missed 
something.

Is your 8 inch setup capable of FM/single density?
I think that Dave has a utility to test that.


Do you have access to any sort of "flux-transition" device (Central point 
option board, cat-weasel, kryoflux, etc.)?

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu May  4 17:40:46 2017
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 10:40:46 +1200
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Re=3A_Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inc?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?h_disks=2E_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041532010.24869@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041452120.24869@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZng=JvKPCwq64VKTXFg4koth1UwBw4ZHw+5y9e3EnwYBtbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041532010.24869@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CACaZngnn+1jTk0JqYQ6M-d0C1jMQvcM_hybKO7nCVmmf0kBQ1A@mail.gmail.com>

>Is your 8 inch setup capable of FM/single density?
>I think that Dave has a utility to test that.

Yes, quite capable.  It passes Dave's test and I have read/written in
single density when archiving other stuff.  Archiving my FM/single density
POLY and Panasonic stuff was no problem.
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-04-15-adventures-with-an-8-inch-disk-drive-part3.htm

>It is more likely to be successful in 98 ("real mode")

No, this (at least the executable) was definitely designed to be run in
Windows.  It tells me  so if I try to start it under pure MS-DOS.

>Do you have access to any sort of "flux-transition" device (Central point
option board, cat-weasel, kryoflux, etc.)?

No. That option is out for me.

Terry

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu May  4 17:47:19 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 15:47:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: sks. Any thoughts
In-Reply-To: <CACaZng=mUo0eFji+3kqBABB-81OeuuSwYODJkCd4HqzmatUyWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041452120.24869@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZng=JvKPCwq64VKTXFg4koth1UwBw4ZHw+5y9e3EnwYBtbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACaZng=mUo0eFji+3kqBABB-81OeuuSwYODJkCd4HqzmatUyWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041536430.24869@shell.lmi.net>

>> Does your system handle single density?  (some FDCs do; some don't)
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
> Oh, yes it does.

Well, there went THAT hope.

There exist other encoding formats, besides WD/IBM style FM and MFM.
(GCR, MMFM, and dozens of others)


If IMD (which seems capable of whatever the NEC FDC can dish out) can't 
see what is on there, then probably the next step would have to be 
analysis of a flux-transition read.

From jsw at ieee.org  Thu May  4 18:02:59 2017
From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 18:02:59 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_?=
 =?utf-8?Q?inch_disks=2E_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1A70599F-1104-4C86-9154-01457E1D61B9@ieee.org>

If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a 11/780?  There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.  

Or they could just be disks used for data exchange.  They would be in another DEC OS file format, rather than ODS2.

Jerry Weiss
jsw at ieee.org


> On May 4, 2017, at 4:41 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> Just tying up some unfinished business.  Right at the beginning of this
> thread I said...
> 
>> Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8
> inch floppy disks.
>> They want to see what?s on them, or at least to archive them.
>> They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
> was used to write the files.
>> They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely.
> 
> Now that I've got the 8 inch disk drive up and running and have some
> experience with it, I thought I've give these disks a go.
> 
> It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
> scoured the Internet for something that might read them.
> 
> ?...
> Any comments most welcome.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Terry






From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu May  4 18:16:30 2017
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 11:16:30 +1200
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
In-Reply-To: <1A70599F-1104-4C86-9154-01457E1D61B9@ieee.org>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1A70599F-1104-4C86-9154-01457E1D61B9@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <CACaZngm+mQd78SEzuMGF_wazzo_CffVKtXgJJ+knfTfGuaTs3Q@mail.gmail.com>

>If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a 11/780?
There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.
>Or they could just be disks used for data exchange.  They would be in
another DEC OS file format, rather than ODS2.

Thanks Jerry,

No one actually knows.  Attached to the front of the disks cover (on
printout paper) is a listing of the directory showing files. Some commands
to get that directory are also shown.

I also tried to examine this disks in pure MSDOS using PUTR V2.01, a DEC
File Transfer Program by John Wilson.  It interrogated the drive for a
recognisable DEC OS, but couldn't find one.

Interestingly, I was able to format/initialise a blank 8 inch disk in the
DEC format I tried (I think it was OS/8) using this program, then mount it
successfully.  This is why I think at least the hardware is working ok.

Cheers

Terry


On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Jerry Weiss <jsw at ieee.org> wrote:

> If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a 11/780?
> There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.
>
> Or they could just be disks used for data exchange.  They would be in
> another DEC OS file format, rather than ODS2.
>
> Jerry Weiss
> jsw at ieee.org
>
>
> > On May 4, 2017, at 4:41 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > Just tying up some unfinished business.  Right at the beginning of this
> > thread I said...
> >
> >> Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8
> > inch floppy disks.
> >> They want to see what?s on them, or at least to archive them.
> >> They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the
> software
> > was used to write the files.
> >> They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely.
> >
> > Now that I've got the 8 inch disk drive up and running and have some
> > experience with it, I thought I've give these disks a go.
> >
> > It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS,
> I
> > scoured the Internet for something that might read them.
> >
> > ?...
> > Any comments most welcome.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Terry
>
>
>
>
>
>

From js at cimmeri.com  Thu May  4 18:30:38 2017
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Thu, 04 May 2017 18:30:38 -0500
Subject: Extracting files off =?UTF-8?B?4oCcdW5rbm93buKAnSA4IGluY2ggZA==?=
 =?UTF-8?B?aXNrcy4gQW55IHRob3VnaHRz4oCm?=
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngm+mQd78SEzuMGF_wazzo_CffVKtXgJJ+knfTfGuaTs3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1A70599F-1104-4C86-9154-01457E1D61B9@ieee.org>
 <CACaZngm+mQd78SEzuMGF_wazzo_CffVKtXgJJ+knfTfGuaTs3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <590BB99E.4070109@cimmeri.com>




On 5/4/2017 6:16 PM, Terry Stewart via 
cctalk wrote:
>> If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a 11/780?
> There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.

And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere 
on this VAX, I don't believe you'd be 
able to read them at all... RX02 seeming 
more likely with a VAX.

- J.


From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu May  4 18:39:36 2017
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 11:39:36 +1200
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
Message-ID: <CACaZngnNrOicmqzE2xCkLTXxkM4jLJzH_BXw7E-bOCANN-HyEQ@mail.gmail.com>

>And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't believe
you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely with a VAX.

Interestingly PUTR, does seem to accommodate this, and the kind of system I
have set up (i.e. 1.2 MB 5.25 inch in CMOS even though it's an 8 inch
drive).  From the readme file...

"SET x: type


        Sets the drive type for one of the four possible PC floppy
        drives A:-D: (note that actual PCs rarely have more than one or
        two floppy drives).  The type must be RX01, RX02, RX03, RX50,
        RX33, RX24, RX23, or RX26.  The default value for each drive is
        whatever was stored in CMOS memory by the ROM BIOS setup
        utility.

        This command may be useful when the drive types stored in CMOS
        RAM are incorrect for some reason.  It's also helpful when an 8"
        drive, or a real DEC RX50 drive, has been attached to the PC
        using a D Bit "FDADAP" adapter, or something equivalent.  There
        is no standard for representing these drive types in CMOS RAM.
        Using real RX50 drives (or other 300 RPM quad-density drives
        such as the Tandon TM100-3 and TM100-4) is different from RX33s
        (which is what PUTR calls regular PC 1.2 MB drives) because the
        motor speed is slower, so the FDC chip must be programmed for a
        lower data rate to match."

 I didn't spend too much time on PUTR as it seemed to be more for the older
DEC OSs rather than Vax VMS.  VMS wasn't mentioned as an option in PUTR
which is why I spent more time experimenting with ODS2, which was VAX
specific.  And...as I said, PUTR tries to figure out what DEC OS (if any)
is on the disk and failed to find one.

Maybe I should play around with the switches in PUTR more before I give up
though....

Terry

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu May  4 18:41:30 2017
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 16:41:30 -0700
Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFJlOiBFeHRyYWN0aW5nIGZpbGVzIG9mZiDigJx1bmtub3du4oCdIDggaW5jaCBkaQ==?=
 =?UTF-8?B?c2tzLiBBbnkgdGhvdWdodHPigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <CACaZng=JvKPCwq64VKTXFg4koth1UwBw4ZHw+5y9e3EnwYBtbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041452120.24869@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZng=JvKPCwq64VKTXFg4koth1UwBw4ZHw+5y9e3EnwYBtbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+TYH1D2mUpoa8Q7A9AZMD3Qo-=GFzgKPOqgoufAqm-Sw@mail.gmail.com>

On May 4, 2017 3:30 PM, "Terry Stewart via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>Using IMD, or other tools, can you determine the density, bytes per
sector, and sectors per track of the disks (try at least 2)
>Also, is the data recorded single sided, or both sides?

>If you can read it with IMD, then you can start wading through content
within sectors to get more clues about what's there.

Thanks Fred,

Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first things I tried.  Couldn't
do it at all.  Tons of errors, no tracks could be read.  IMD didn't
recognise the layout at all.

All the disks I tried were like this.

Terry


If they are DEC RX02 format you won't be able to read them on any standard
PC hardware.

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu May  4 18:50:50 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 16:50:50 -0700
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?=
In-Reply-To: <590BB99E.4070109@cimmeri.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1A70599F-1104-4C86-9154-01457E1D61B9@ieee.org>
 <CACaZngm+mQd78SEzuMGF_wazzo_CffVKtXgJJ+knfTfGuaTs3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <590BB99E.4070109@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <fa2107a8-7e84-d7d4-41e1-b6f965cc3b22@sydex.com>

On 05/04/2017 04:30 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote:

> On 5/4/2017 6:16 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>>> If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a
>>> 11/780?
>> There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.
> 
> And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't
> believe you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely
> with a VAX.

If it's an RX02 operating in double-density mode, you're not going to
read the disks with any commodity floppy controller.  You will, however,
get the sector ID headers.

DEC used a rather peculiar scheme where headers were recording in
single-density (FM), but the body of the sector (the data) is recorded
in a "peculiar" MFM, that employs some pattern substitutions to avoid
conflict with similar patterns in the headers.

A catweasel will work just fine--and there's code out there to handle it.

--Chuck





From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu May  4 18:56:21 2017
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 11:56:21 +1200
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
In-Reply-To: <fa2107a8-7e84-d7d4-41e1-b6f965cc3b22@sydex.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1A70599F-1104-4C86-9154-01457E1D61B9@ieee.org>
 <CACaZngm+mQd78SEzuMGF_wazzo_CffVKtXgJJ+knfTfGuaTs3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <590BB99E.4070109@cimmeri.com>
 <fa2107a8-7e84-d7d4-41e1-b6f965cc3b22@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CACaZngm5j5B3ZCgvPVKQyn=4mPDyqQubg-C=TWfr2yYiA7-GbA@mail.gmail.com>

>If it's an RX02 operating in double-density mode, you're not going to
>read the disks with any commodity floppy controller.  You will, however,
>get the sector ID headers.

>DEC used a rather peculiar scheme where headers were recording in
>single-density (FM), but the body of the sector (the data) is recorded
>in a "peculiar" MFM, that employs some pattern substitutions to avoid
>conflict with similar patterns in the headers.

Thanks Chuck

Hmm...I'll do some more checking with IMD and Anadisk tonight.  I haven't
looked at this disks in Anadisk yet.  IMD did recognise some things...maybe
it was the Sector ID headers.

Even if I can't get anything off, I'm now very curious as to exactly what
I'm dealing with.

Terry



On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 05/04/2017 04:30 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote:
>
> > On 5/4/2017 6:16 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
> >>> If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a
> >>> 11/780?
> >> There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.
> >
> > And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't
> > believe you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely
> > with a VAX.
>
> If it's an RX02 operating in double-density mode, you're not going to
> read the disks with any commodity floppy controller.  You will, however,
> get the sector ID headers.
>
> DEC used a rather peculiar scheme where headers were recording in
> single-density (FM), but the body of the sector (the data) is recorded
> in a "peculiar" MFM, that employs some pattern substitutions to avoid
> conflict with similar patterns in the headers.
>
> A catweasel will work just fine--and there's code out there to handle it.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
>
>

From js at cimmeri.com  Thu May  4 19:05:13 2017
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Thu, 04 May 2017 19:05:13 -0500
Subject: Extracting files off =?UTF-8?B?4oCcdW5rbm93buKAnSA4IGluY2ggZA==?=
 =?UTF-8?B?aXNrcy4gQW55IHRob3VnaHRz4oCm?=
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngnNrOicmqzE2xCkLTXxkM4jLJzH_BXw7E-bOCANN-HyEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngnNrOicmqzE2xCkLTXxkM4jLJzH_BXw7E-bOCANN-HyEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <590BC1B9.20205@cimmeri.com>



On 5/4/2017 6:39 PM, Terry Stewart via 
cctalk wrote:
>> And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't believe
> you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely with a VAX.
>
> Interestingly PUTR, does seem to accommodate this, and the kind of system I
> have set up (i.e. 1.2 MB 5.25 inch in CMOS even though it's an 8 inch
> drive).


If you'll have a look at the PUTR 
manual, it says on page 1,

"The 'RX02' format used by PUTR is 
actually IBM System 34 format,
         since DEC's 8" DD disks use a 
strange combination of SD headers
         with non-standard ID marks, and 
DD data fields, that can't be
         accessed with a standard PC FDC 
regardless of the software used."

- J.

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu May  4 20:05:35 2017
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 13:05:35 +1200
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
In-Reply-To: <590BC1B9.20205@cimmeri.com>
References: <CACaZngnNrOicmqzE2xCkLTXxkM4jLJzH_BXw7E-bOCANN-HyEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <590BC1B9.20205@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <CACaZngnDV4zJU=URJyem82td9THDrqQ54P5+d7wrTVcRYM1SAg@mail.gmail.com>

>The 'RX02' format used by PUTR is actually IBM System 34 format,
>since DEC's 8" DD disks use a strange combination of SD headers
>with non-standard ID marks, and DD data fields, that can't be
>accessed with a standard PC FDC regardless of the software used."

Right.  It's definitely a possibility then.

Thanks

Terry

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu May  4 20:27:27 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 18:27:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Extracting files off unknown 8 inch disks. Any thoughts
In-Reply-To: <358bc61f-d343-5bb4-9620-5f0b44096595@gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041452120.24869@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZng=JvKPCwq64VKTXFg4koth1UwBw4ZHw+5y9e3EnwYBtbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041532010.24869@shell.lmi.net>
 <358bc61f-d343-5bb4-9620-5f0b44096595@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041824270.24869@shell.lmi.net>

Thank you!

Now, the question will be whether Allison has some free time to check them 
out for Terry.


Experience always beats speculation:

On Thu, 4 May 2017, allison wrote:
> First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2
> aka RX02.
>
> RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track  PC can read them.
>
> RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is
> totally
> unreadable with any LSI controller.  It uses FM headers to confuse the act.
> To read that you need:
> - RX02 and a compatible system.
> -  one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300
> family chips)  in a DEC box (and cpu).
> -Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC.
>
> Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8"
> SSSD).  It can also read and write
> RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01.   RX02
> format was unique to DEC
> and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware
> compatible controllers.
>
> First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the second.
>
> Then the possible 8" ODS formats are....
>
> DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit
> formatting).
>
> The  PDP-11 group  RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common.  Note PDT150
> is also PDP-11 RX01.
> This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks.
> The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and
> 3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over
> time.
>
> VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode.  It is PDP11 and
> RX01 media.
> Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any
> format compatible with
> the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target.
>
> I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for
> the VAX78x family
> as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive.   To do that it had to
> have a unibus  RX controller
> and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had
> utilities for most all the
> PDP11 formats.
>
> Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode.
> Microvax and later machine
> did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot
> sequence.   In those
> cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax
> (not a supported config)
> assembled as a hack.  Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used
> RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5")
> as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later
> firmware supported 5.25" Teac
> and 3.5" Sony drives as well.  RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50  and 3.5" Sony
> drives.  Because of this
> and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used.  The RQDX
> controllers could do the stated
> floppies even is MFM  disks were not connected.
>
> Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media.
>
> in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough.  IF RX02
> a pdp11 and RX02(or third party
> equivalent) makes it easy.    To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux
> reader, 765 and later clones cannot.
>
> How do I know.  I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
> uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
> I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
> and a CP/M utility that
> knew RT11 format.  IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
> RX01 media using FIT or other
> tools.
>
>
> Allison

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu May  4 20:41:28 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 21:41:28 -0400
Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow (mirror of Latrobe ftp anybody ?)
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfqFG24231VJNiEXv1tYu3kJUbmvzcvALgGmQjxOut1dpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7beb6697-287c-92be-f588-ca5fdd30fe29@gmail.com>
 <46153FA1-0D81-46F3-93A5-1516A2DE117F@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <CANCZdfpQwy_Ye35h3_Ngm7f=HAwx-0OP2w-pTms5uNSQZMsiQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqFG24231VJNiEXv1tYu3kJUbmvzcvALgGmQjxOut1dpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueaqospKSynQMqdFWBzw+YUXMVwOAEjw2yUnqny8m6+=g@mail.gmail.com>

Warner,
How are you uploading and downloading disks from the Rainbow...via the
Rainbow or by reading the disks using an image program?  I grabbed a copy
of Windows.  I may have a spare graphics card.
Bill

On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 11:20 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 1:40 AM, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Huw Davies
> > <huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 19 Aug 2016, at 02:31, shadoooo <shadoooo at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It seems that copies of this software are really difficult to find,
> but a complete copy
> >>> was available on the latrobe ftp DEC Rainbow archive... which
> disappeared with all valuable data...
> >>> Anybody has a copy of the content before the deletion?
> >>
> >> I?m sure the archive would have been set up by Paul Nankervis who I
> used to work with at La Trobe. I?ll see if he still has  the original
> copies.
> >
> > I have a bunch of disks for my Rainbow labeled Windows 1.0 if there's
> > no archives that have them.
>
> All the online archives seem to have a bogus copy, that's a mix of
> VAXmate and Rainwbow files and it doesn't work.
>
> So I discovered I have a copy that isn't in the archives. I've
> uploaded it. Details in my blog entry
> http://bsdimp.blogspot.com/2017/05/rainbow-100-windows-10-disks-redux.html
> about things. At least one member has these files and is trying to
> make them work. Since I don't have Graphics Adapter, I've not worried
> too much about them... But I've had them in my collection since I
> think 2001...
>
> Warner
>

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu May  4 20:46:39 2017
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 19:46:39 -0600
Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow (mirror of Latrobe ftp anybody ?)
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBueaqospKSynQMqdFWBzw+YUXMVwOAEjw2yUnqny8m6+=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7beb6697-287c-92be-f588-ca5fdd30fe29@gmail.com>
 <46153FA1-0D81-46F3-93A5-1516A2DE117F@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <CANCZdfpQwy_Ye35h3_Ngm7f=HAwx-0OP2w-pTms5uNSQZMsiQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqFG24231VJNiEXv1tYu3kJUbmvzcvALgGmQjxOut1dpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBueaqospKSynQMqdFWBzw+YUXMVwOAEjw2yUnqny8m6+=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfqivm4bt=azg5=Shyg4wh7HdcXGw5sNBZRbuP+32idr=Q@mail.gmail.com>

The old fashioned way: copy the files on the rainbow to the hard
drive, kermit to my unix box.

I have a kryoflux, but it's being nothing but frustrating to me since
I don't know if I have a known good floppy it supports or not. I mean
I have two 5.25 1.2M floppy drives, just have no way of knowing if
they are good or not and am loathe to try to buy another one...  So
I'm reading them the only way I know how: via an RX-50 on my
Rainbow...

I meant to get the Venix disks in the mail today, but today got away
from me. I'll get them in tomorrow.

Warner

On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 7:41 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
> Warner,
> How are you uploading and downloading disks from the Rainbow...via the
> Rainbow or by reading the disks using an image program?  I grabbed a copy of
> Windows.  I may have a spare graphics card.
> Bill
>
> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 11:20 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 1:40 AM, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>> > On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Huw Davies
>> > <huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On 19 Aug 2016, at 02:31, shadoooo <shadoooo at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> It seems that copies of this software are really difficult to find,
>> >>> but a complete copy
>> >>> was available on the latrobe ftp DEC Rainbow archive... which
>> >>> disappeared with all valuable data...
>> >>> Anybody has a copy of the content before the deletion?
>> >>
>> >> I?m sure the archive would have been set up by Paul Nankervis who I
>> >> used to work with at La Trobe. I?ll see if he still has  the original
>> >> copies.
>> >
>> > I have a bunch of disks for my Rainbow labeled Windows 1.0 if there's
>> > no archives that have them.
>>
>> All the online archives seem to have a bogus copy, that's a mix of
>> VAXmate and Rainwbow files and it doesn't work.
>>
>> So I discovered I have a copy that isn't in the archives. I've
>> uploaded it. Details in my blog entry
>> http://bsdimp.blogspot.com/2017/05/rainbow-100-windows-10-disks-redux.html
>> about things. At least one member has these files and is trying to
>> make them work. Since I don't have Graphics Adapter, I've not worried
>> too much about them... But I've had them in my collection since I
>> think 2001...
>>
>> Warner
>
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu May  4 20:58:10 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 18:58:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow (mirror of Latrobe ftp anybody ?)
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfqivm4bt=azg5=Shyg4wh7HdcXGw5sNBZRbuP+32idr=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7beb6697-287c-92be-f588-ca5fdd30fe29@gmail.com>
 <46153FA1-0D81-46F3-93A5-1516A2DE117F@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <CANCZdfpQwy_Ye35h3_Ngm7f=HAwx-0OP2w-pTms5uNSQZMsiQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqFG24231VJNiEXv1tYu3kJUbmvzcvALgGmQjxOut1dpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBueaqospKSynQMqdFWBzw+YUXMVwOAEjw2yUnqny8m6+=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqivm4bt=azg5=Shyg4wh7HdcXGw5sNBZRbuP+32idr=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041849330.24869@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 4 May 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
> The old fashioned way: copy the files on the rainbow to the hard
> drive, kermit to my unix box.
> I have a kryoflux, but it's being nothing but frustrating to me since
> I don't know if I have a known good floppy it supports or not. I mean
> I have two 5.25 1.2M floppy drives, just have no way of knowing if
> they are good or not and am loathe to try to buy another one...  So
> I'm reading them the only way I know how: via an RX-50 on my
> Rainbow...

Rainbow disks are readable on a PC with 1.2M.  But, it's sometimes a 
little easier if you use a 720K 5.25" drive.

96tpi, 300 RPM with 250K data transfer rate
(or, with some 1.2M drives: 360RPM with 300K data transfer rate, but NOT 
double stepping as would be done for 360K disk at that data transfer rate)


There are commercial programs available for the PC to read/write Rainbow,
and even programs for the Rainbow to read/write PC 160K/180K disks.
(for writing PC on the Rainbow, start with a virgin disk, and format it on 
the Rainbow in PC format, or in a PC using a 1.2M drive in 190K format 
-same track width problems as rewriting 360K disks in 1.2M drive)

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu May  4 21:00:46 2017
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 14:00:46 +1200
Subject: Extracting files off unknown 8 inch disks. Any thoughts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041824270.24869@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041452120.24869@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZng=JvKPCwq64VKTXFg4koth1UwBw4ZHw+5y9e3EnwYBtbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041532010.24869@shell.lmi.net>
 <358bc61f-d343-5bb4-9620-5f0b44096595@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041824270.24869@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CACaZng=mcUejK5UkDj_D6GKkUArTLgW+bz-c-HbZ6xaKFneNBg@mail.gmail.com>

>First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2
>aka RX02.
>(..an in-depth explanation)
>How do I know.  I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
>uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
>I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
>and a CP/M utility that
>knew RT11 format.  IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
>RX01 media using FIT or other
>tools.

Thanks for that explanation Allison.  I see there are all sorts of complex
systems and formats.

Based on what I've read, I'll call it quits with this project.  The guys in
the lab in the next building can take it further if they want to.  They
didn't want anything specific off the floppies.  It was a case of "we want
to toss these disks.  but perhaps we should copy the stuff off these
disks...just in case".

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  It's been an interesting learning
exercise.

Terry



On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

> Thank you!
>
> Now, the question will be whether Allison has some free time to check them
> out for Terry.
>
>
> Experience always beats speculation:
>
> On Thu, 4 May 2017, allison wrote:
>
>> First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2
>> aka RX02.
>>
>> RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track  PC can read them.
>>
>> RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is
>> totally
>> unreadable with any LSI controller.  It uses FM headers to confuse the
>> act.
>> To read that you need:
>> - RX02 and a compatible system.
>> -  one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300
>> family chips)  in a DEC box (and cpu).
>> -Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC.
>>
>> Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8"
>> SSSD).  It can also read and write
>> RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01.   RX02
>> format was unique to DEC
>> and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware
>> compatible controllers.
>>
>> First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the
>> second.
>>
>> Then the possible 8" ODS formats are....
>>
>> DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit
>> formatting).
>>
>> The  PDP-11 group  RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common.  Note PDT150
>> is also PDP-11 RX01.
>> This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks.
>> The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and
>> 3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over
>> time.
>>
>> VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode.  It is PDP11 and
>> RX01 media.
>> Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any
>> format compatible with
>> the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target.
>>
>> I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for
>> the VAX78x family
>> as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive.   To do that it had to
>> have a unibus  RX controller
>> and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had
>> utilities for most all the
>> PDP11 formats.
>>
>> Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode.
>> Microvax and later machine
>> did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot
>> sequence.   In those
>> cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax
>> (not a supported config)
>> assembled as a hack.  Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used
>> RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5")
>> as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later
>> firmware supported 5.25" Teac
>> and 3.5" Sony drives as well.  RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50  and 3.5" Sony
>> drives.  Because of this
>> and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used.  The RQDX
>> controllers could do the stated
>> floppies even is MFM  disks were not connected.
>>
>> Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media.
>>
>> in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough.  IF RX02
>> a pdp11 and RX02(or third party
>> equivalent) makes it easy.    To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux
>> reader, 765 and later clones cannot.
>>
>> How do I know.  I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
>> uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
>> I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
>> and a CP/M utility that
>> knew RT11 format.  IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
>> RX01 media using FIT or other
>> tools.
>>
>>
>> Allison
>>
>

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu May  4 21:17:35 2017
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 20:17:35 -0600
Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow (mirror of Latrobe ftp anybody ?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041849330.24869@shell.lmi.net>
References: <7beb6697-287c-92be-f588-ca5fdd30fe29@gmail.com>
 <46153FA1-0D81-46F3-93A5-1516A2DE117F@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <CANCZdfpQwy_Ye35h3_Ngm7f=HAwx-0OP2w-pTms5uNSQZMsiQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqFG24231VJNiEXv1tYu3kJUbmvzcvALgGmQjxOut1dpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBueaqospKSynQMqdFWBzw+YUXMVwOAEjw2yUnqny8m6+=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqivm4bt=azg5=Shyg4wh7HdcXGw5sNBZRbuP+32idr=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041849330.24869@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfoGnqDV_zWuY0+z3EBaD0Ayz=Z9-RU9N7gCLwAmjwfe=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 7:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 4 May 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> The old fashioned way: copy the files on the rainbow to the hard
>> drive, kermit to my unix box.
>> I have a kryoflux, but it's being nothing but frustrating to me since
>> I don't know if I have a known good floppy it supports or not. I mean
>> I have two 5.25 1.2M floppy drives, just have no way of knowing if
>> they are good or not and am loathe to try to buy another one...  So
>> I'm reading them the only way I know how: via an RX-50 on my
>> Rainbow...
>
>
> Rainbow disks are readable on a PC with 1.2M.  But, it's sometimes a little
> easier if you use a 720K 5.25" drive.

True. I have two I bought back in the day for the Rainbow that I've
not been able to get to work on my PC or kyroflux. They are TEAC
55FRs...

> 96tpi, 300 RPM with 250K data transfer rate
> (or, with some 1.2M drives: 360RPM with 300K data transfer rate, but NOT
> double stepping as would be done for 360K disk at that data transfer rate)

Correct. I've done it before years ago on FreeBSD, I thought with the
TEAC 55FRs, but it may have been with the 55GRF that I have...

> There are commercial programs available for the PC to read/write Rainbow,
> and even programs for the Rainbow to read/write PC 160K/180K disks.
> (for writing PC on the Rainbow, start with a virgin disk, and format it on
> the Rainbow in PC format, or in a PC using a 1.2M drive in 190K format -same
> track width problems as rewriting 360K disks in 1.2M drive)

Yes. And you could use the IMPDRIVE.SYS that I wrote and put a 720k
3.5" drive into the Rainbow and do the transfer that way too, since it
allowed you to read/write standard IBM disks. Trouble with that is
that my newer computers don't even have a floppy port and the older
ones in the bone yard are broken... I have 40 or 50 backup disks that
I should read into the my unix boxes sometimes.

Warner

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu May  4 21:18:07 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 22:18:07 -0400
Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow (mirror of Latrobe ftp anybody ?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041849330.24869@shell.lmi.net>
References: <7beb6697-287c-92be-f588-ca5fdd30fe29@gmail.com>
 <46153FA1-0D81-46F3-93A5-1516A2DE117F@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <CANCZdfpQwy_Ye35h3_Ngm7f=HAwx-0OP2w-pTms5uNSQZMsiQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqFG24231VJNiEXv1tYu3kJUbmvzcvALgGmQjxOut1dpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBueaqospKSynQMqdFWBzw+YUXMVwOAEjw2yUnqny8m6+=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqivm4bt=azg5=Shyg4wh7HdcXGw5sNBZRbuP+32idr=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041849330.24869@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CABGJBud0e6i+a4Y=JOawApdKz7CFESYqgiXsXfStA+h3Anc=XQ@mail.gmail.com>

OK..  I will use LCTERM on my Rainbow to Kermit to my Raspberry Pi.
b

On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

> On Thu, 4 May 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
>
>> The old fashioned way: copy the files on the rainbow to the hard
>> drive, kermit to my unix box.
>> I have a kryoflux, but it's being nothing but frustrating to me since
>> I don't know if I have a known good floppy it supports or not. I mean
>> I have two 5.25 1.2M floppy drives, just have no way of knowing if
>> they are good or not and am loathe to try to buy another one...  So
>> I'm reading them the only way I know how: via an RX-50 on my
>> Rainbow...
>>
>
> Rainbow disks are readable on a PC with 1.2M.  But, it's sometimes a
> little easier if you use a 720K 5.25" drive.
>
> 96tpi, 300 RPM with 250K data transfer rate
> (or, with some 1.2M drives: 360RPM with 300K data transfer rate, but NOT
> double stepping as would be done for 360K disk at that data transfer rate)
>
>
> There are commercial programs available for the PC to read/write Rainbow,
> and even programs for the Rainbow to read/write PC 160K/180K disks.
> (for writing PC on the Rainbow, start with a virgin disk, and format it on
> the Rainbow in PC format, or in a PC using a 1.2M drive in 190K format
> -same track width problems as rewriting 360K disks in 1.2M drive)
>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu May  4 21:31:18 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 22:31:18 -0400
Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow (mirror of Latrobe ftp anybody ?)
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBud0e6i+a4Y=JOawApdKz7CFESYqgiXsXfStA+h3Anc=XQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7beb6697-287c-92be-f588-ca5fdd30fe29@gmail.com>
 <46153FA1-0D81-46F3-93A5-1516A2DE117F@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <CANCZdfpQwy_Ye35h3_Ngm7f=HAwx-0OP2w-pTms5uNSQZMsiQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqFG24231VJNiEXv1tYu3kJUbmvzcvALgGmQjxOut1dpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBueaqospKSynQMqdFWBzw+YUXMVwOAEjw2yUnqny8m6+=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqivm4bt=azg5=Shyg4wh7HdcXGw5sNBZRbuP+32idr=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041849330.24869@shell.lmi.net>
 <CABGJBud0e6i+a4Y=JOawApdKz7CFESYqgiXsXfStA+h3Anc=XQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufdnD1t+bfZ=Xow+Wc8n5E_ev1EnbWi1rWyXj_7warCfw@mail.gmail.com>

I treat the few working SSQD drives I have like they're gold.   The visual
1050 uses them too.

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu May  4 21:35:12 2017
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 20:35:12 -0600
Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow (mirror of Latrobe ftp anybody ?)
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBud0e6i+a4Y=JOawApdKz7CFESYqgiXsXfStA+h3Anc=XQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7beb6697-287c-92be-f588-ca5fdd30fe29@gmail.com>
 <46153FA1-0D81-46F3-93A5-1516A2DE117F@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <CANCZdfpQwy_Ye35h3_Ngm7f=HAwx-0OP2w-pTms5uNSQZMsiQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqFG24231VJNiEXv1tYu3kJUbmvzcvALgGmQjxOut1dpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBueaqospKSynQMqdFWBzw+YUXMVwOAEjw2yUnqny8m6+=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqivm4bt=azg5=Shyg4wh7HdcXGw5sNBZRbuP+32idr=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041849330.24869@shell.lmi.net>
 <CABGJBud0e6i+a4Y=JOawApdKz7CFESYqgiXsXfStA+h3Anc=XQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfqBOr9j2mSizWNu_tpaZT0yfO+TSnRYyEbyPW89N19aLw@mail.gmail.com>

Yea, my setup is similar, though it goes to a USB serial on my Intel
server since that was near by and handy. 9600 is totally reliable,
19200 is too flakey to use, though I'd like more speed. Then again,
310cps is about all I can do with XMODEM and 250cps with KERMIT in
LCTERM.

Warner

On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 8:18 PM, william degnan via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> OK..  I will use LCTERM on my Rainbow to Kermit to my Raspberry Pi.
> b
>
> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 4 May 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> The old fashioned way: copy the files on the rainbow to the hard
>>> drive, kermit to my unix box.
>>> I have a kryoflux, but it's being nothing but frustrating to me since
>>> I don't know if I have a known good floppy it supports or not. I mean
>>> I have two 5.25 1.2M floppy drives, just have no way of knowing if
>>> they are good or not and am loathe to try to buy another one...  So
>>> I'm reading them the only way I know how: via an RX-50 on my
>>> Rainbow...
>>>
>>
>> Rainbow disks are readable on a PC with 1.2M.  But, it's sometimes a
>> little easier if you use a 720K 5.25" drive.
>>
>> 96tpi, 300 RPM with 250K data transfer rate
>> (or, with some 1.2M drives: 360RPM with 300K data transfer rate, but NOT
>> double stepping as would be done for 360K disk at that data transfer rate)
>>
>>
>> There are commercial programs available for the PC to read/write Rainbow,
>> and even programs for the Rainbow to read/write PC 160K/180K disks.
>> (for writing PC on the Rainbow, start with a virgin disk, and format it on
>> the Rainbow in PC format, or in a PC using a 1.2M drive in 190K format
>> -same track width problems as rewriting 360K disks in 1.2M drive)
>>

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu May  4 17:04:56 2017
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 18:04:56 -0400
Subject: Anyone have a scan of the back cover of "UNIX System V Release 1
 User's Manual" (Jan 1983)_Jan83.pdf
Message-ID: <CAALmimmkdVeHO1WLKG71ygZkZQXLwx5WWrDOC=6DXg_kWvfoQg@mail.gmail.com>

The scan of
http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/att/unix/System_V_Release_1/301-905_UNIX_System_V_Release_1_Users_Manual_Jan83.pdf
has good contents, but the back cover skewed in the scanner.

I picked up a copy that is missing the back cover and I want to print
a replacement.  Anyone have something I can print?

Thanks,

-ethan

From RichA at livingcomputers.org  Thu May  4 18:01:58 2017
From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 23:01:58 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UkU6IEV4dHJhY3RpbmcgZmlsZXMgb2ZmIOKAnHVua25vd27igJ0gOCBpbmNo?=
 =?utf-8?B?IGRpc2tzLiBBbnkgdGhvdWdodHPigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>

From: Terry Stewart
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 2:41 PM

> Just tying up some unfinished business.  Right at the beginning of this
> thread I said...

>> Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch
>> floppy disks.  They want to see what?s on them, or at least to archive them.
>> They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
>> was used to write the files.  They may be CP/M, or some other format
>> entirely.

> It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
> scoured the Internet for something that might read them.

Stop there.

8" floppies on a VAX are more likely to be an RT-11 file system for the front
end PDP-11/03 than anything else you can think of.

The rest is left as an exercise for the reader.

                                                                Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org

http://www.LivingComputers.org/

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Thu May  4 20:05:39 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 21:05:39 -0400
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?=
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041532010.24869@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041452120.24869@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZng=JvKPCwq64VKTXFg4koth1UwBw4ZHw+5y9e3EnwYBtbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041532010.24869@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <358bc61f-d343-5bb4-9620-5f0b44096595@gmail.com>

On 05/04/2017 06:35 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>> Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first things I tried. 
>> Couldn't
>> do it at all.  Tons of errors, no tracks could be read.  IMD didn't
>> recognise the layout at all.
>> All the disks I tried were like this.
>
> Then, either it is impossible to read with the PC FDC, or we missed
> something.
>
> Is your 8 inch setup capable of FM/single density?
> I think that Dave has a utility to test that.
>
>
> Do you have access to any sort of "flux-transition" device (Central
> point option board, cat-weasel, kryoflux, etc.)?


First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2
aka RX02.

RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track  PC can read them.

RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is
totally
unreadable with any LSI controller.  It uses FM headers to confuse the act.
To read that you need:
- RX02 and a compatible system.
-  one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300
family chips)  in a DEC box (and cpu).
-Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC.

Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8"
SSSD).  It can also read and write
RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01.   RX02
format was unique to DEC
and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware
compatible controllers.

First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the second.

Then the possible 8" ODS formats are....

DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit
formatting).

The  PDP-11 group  RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common.  Note PDT150
is also PDP-11 RX01.
This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks.   
The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and
3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over
time.

VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode.  It is PDP11 and
RX01 media.
Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any
format compatible with
the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target. 

I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for
the VAX78x family
as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive.   To do that it had to
have a unibus  RX controller
and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had
utilities for most all the
PDP11 formats.

Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode.  
Microvax and later machine
did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot
sequence.   In those
cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax
(not a supported config)
assembled as a hack.  Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used
RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5")
as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later
firmware supported 5.25" Teac 
and 3.5" Sony drives as well.  RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50  and 3.5" Sony
drives.  Because of this
and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used.  The RQDX
controllers could do the stated
floppies even is MFM  disks were not connected. 

Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media.

in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough.  IF RX02
a pdp11 and RX02(or third party
equivalent) makes it easy.    To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux
reader, 765 and later clones cannot.

How do I know.  I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
and a CP/M utility that
knew RT11 format.  IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
RX01 media using FIT or other
tools.


Allison


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Thu May  4 20:27:11 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 21:27:11 -0400
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?=
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngnDV4zJU=URJyem82td9THDrqQ54P5+d7wrTVcRYM1SAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngnNrOicmqzE2xCkLTXxkM4jLJzH_BXw7E-bOCANN-HyEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <590BC1B9.20205@cimmeri.com>
 <CACaZngnDV4zJU=URJyem82td9THDrqQ54P5+d7wrTVcRYM1SAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <14e5450e-7ea2-81f7-22bd-dc1d6b20297e@gmail.com>

On 05/04/2017 09:05 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>> The 'RX02' format used by PUTR is actually IBM System 34 format,
>> since DEC's 8" DD disks use a strange combination of SD headers
>> with non-standard ID marks, and DD data fields, that can't be
>> accessed with a standard PC FDC regardless of the software used."
> Right.  It's definitely a possibility then.
PUTR can do RX01 media formats.  Since the PC cannot do the unique mixed
density format
saying RX02 is potentially inaccurate.

Reason is that RX02 is a dual density drive system .  Its also a RX02
512Kb media *or* RX01  256kb.
That meas RX02 drive can read and write RX01 media in RX01 mode and
hence system 34
compatible media.  The  RX02 had three interfaces, omnibus, qbus, unibus.

RX01 is a drive system that is older and only does the 256K system 34
aka SSSD 8".  The media
is called RX01 as well.  PCs can do this.  Neither can read RX02 media
unless reformated
to RX01 (if full, you need two to hold the data due to storage capacity
difference ) or
using Catsweasel or similar.   This subsystem had three different bus
level interfaces
Omnibus, Qbus, Unibus.

The difference between the two is the bus controller and the logic in
the drive subsystem.
Both use the same physical disk drive and on first glance look the same.


Allison

From jfehlinger at comcast.net  Thu May  4 22:05:59 2017
From: jfehlinger at comcast.net (JAMES FEHLINGER)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 23:05:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SimH IBM1130 GUI appears "fixed"
In-Reply-To: <1412510642.55078.1493908427115@connect.xfinity.com>
References: <251386307.46740.1493829684195@connect.xfinity.com>
 <884184385.69054.1493868690145@connect.xfinity.com>
 <1412510642.55078.1493908427115@connect.xfinity.com>
Message-ID: <1782826672.99027.1493953560090@connect.xfinity.com>

I decided to take a look at the code.

The github history shows that there were no changes
to any 1130-specific files between
April 3, 2015 "All: Convert from C runtime library perror()
to sim_perror(). . ." and
May 15,2016 "All: Massive 'const' cleanup"
whereas the change in behavior of the Win32 Development binary
of ibm1132.exe occurred sometime between
simh-4.0-Beta--2016-01-07-e8ea427d and
simh-4.0-Beta--2016-01-29-b8049645 .
This suggests that something changed **around** the
1130 code, in the SimH infrastructure itself.

I didn't bother to look for code commits in SimH framework
files between Jan. 7 and Jan. 29 2016; instead, I
took a look at the 1130-specific files for anything having to do with
the handling of "wait states", and there was one pretty
obvious place in ibm1130_cpu.c (particularly lines 586-606):

-------------------------
532  while (reason == 0)  {
     
     . . .
     
586    if (wait_state) {                /* waiting? */
         sim_interval = 0;              /* run the clock out */
       
         if (sim_qcount() <= (cgi ? 0 : 1)) {    /* one routine queued? we're waiting for keyboard only */
           if (keyboard_is_busy()) {            /* we are actually waiting for a keystroke */
             if ((status = sim_process_event()) != SCPE_OK)    /* get it with wait_state still set */
               reason = simh_status_to_stopcode(status);
           }
           else {              /* CPU is not expecting a keystroke (keyboard interrupt) */
             if (wait_state == WAIT_OP)
               reason = STOP_WAIT;      /* end the simulation */
             else
               reason = STOP_INVALID_INSTR;
           }
         }
       
         if (gdu_active())              /* but don't stop simulator if 2250 GDU is running */
           reason = 0;
       
         continue;
606    }
     
     . . .
     
1170 }
-------------------------

I stuck some print statements in there, and sure enough,
if the simulator isn't dropping back into a command prompt
after DMS boots or after a job finishes, it's because this
loop never exits.

The sim_qcount() call looked interesting -- it seems
to be examining a SimH "event queue".  Not being familiar with
SimH internals, I have no clear idea what this queue contains,
but the 1130 code seems to be making an assumption about the
number of items that should be there, an assumption which
is apparently no longer correct (and was always incorrect
when throttling is on).

This has nothing to do with the GUI, actually -- the behavior is
the same with "set gui off" in the initial command file, and I
did my initial poking around with a quick-and-dirty Cygwin-built
executable with no SDL support anyway.  (I've now switched to
the latest MinGW with gcc 5.3.0 and SDL graphics.)

Again, I have no idea what the SimH infrastructure is putting
on this event queue that wasn't there before -- it may
have something to do with changes to the SCP.

I also don't know what "CGI mode" is -- that's something specific
to the 1130 simulator, apparently -- it's mentioned in the
"Reference Guide", but it isn't defined.  But apparently there's
an on-line version of the simulator at ibm1130.org that protects
its disk image from permanent changes, and this operates in
"CGI mode", whatever the letter stand for.  I presume I'm
not operating in "CGI mode".

Anyway, this is the horrific kludge I put in ibm1130_cpu.c to make
the GUI (or more exactly, wait states leading to dropping back
to the SimH prompt) work as expected, with or without throttling,
and with the latest github download of simh-master source.
(Even the 2250 GDU demo works.)  It's entirely empirical, without
any deep understanding of what's going on, and
may well break down the road.

-------------------------
337  static int s_qcount_initial = 0;  /* saves first-ever event queue count, immediately after DMS boot */
338  static int s_qcount_onetime_decrement = 1;
   
   . . .
   
536  while (reason == 0)  {
     
     . . .
     
590    if (wait_state) {                /* waiting? */
         sim_interval = 0;              /* run the clock out */
       
   #if 0
         if (sim_qcount() <= (cgi ? 0 : 1)) {    /* one routine queued? we're waiting for keyboard only */
   #else
         int s_qcount = sim_qcount();
         if (s_qcount_initial == 0)
         {
           s_qcount_initial = s_qcount;
         }
   
         if (s_qcount <= s_qcount_initial-s_qcount_onetime_decrement) {  /* one routine queued? we're waiting for keyboard only */
           s_qcount_onetime_decrement = 0;
   #endif
           if (keyboard_is_busy()) {            /* we are actually waiting for a keystroke */
             if ((status = sim_process_event()) != SCPE_OK)    /* get it with wait_state still set */
               reason = simh_status_to_stopcode(status);
           }
           else {              /* CPU is not expecting a keystroke (keyboard interrupt) */
             if (wait_state == WAIT_OP)
               reason = STOP_WAIT;      /* end the simulation */
             else
               reason = STOP_INVALID_INSTR;
           }
         }
       
         if (gdu_active())              /* but don't stop simulator if 2250 GDU is running */
           reason = 0;
       
         continue;
621    }
     
     . . .
     
1185   }
-------------------------


There was one other bug I found, that was preventing the printer.txt
file from getting reattached properly when the GUI is being used
and the printer paper is "torn off" and viewed.  That required
a change to ibm1130_gui.c (line 1483) -- removal of quotes:

sprintf(cmd, "attach prt \"%s\"", filename);     /* reattach */
to
sprintf(cmd, "attach prt %s", filename);     /* reattach */

That's also presumably related to a change in the SCP.  This latter,
trivial change is not a kludge -- it'll probably end up in the codebase
someday.


The CPU change I've only tested with the relatively limited set of sample
programs from the ibm1130.org software kit.

Lunar Lander still doesn't work.

From useddec at gmail.com  Fri May  5 01:49:55 2017
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 01:49:55 -0500
Subject: DEC Rainbow, Pro 380 parts available,
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMDb-pyWOExJ9dTQ1zA4bkzUBBNa5xHh7Pc4hukiLRpBw@mail.gmail.com>

I have the following Rainbow/ PRO parts for sale. I would like to sell the
the mother board and everything on it. If I don't get offers for them, I
might split them up. I might have more loose parts as I continue digging.
No complete units with cases at this time. I'm waiting for some to arrive I
bought over a year ago.

Please contact me off list with any questions and offers. Shipping is from
61853, and will be $15 per PC100 mother board, overseas please ask me for
rate. I plan to ship everything sold next week.

UNIT 1:  PC100B motherboard
               RX50 controller 54-15482
               RD51 controller 54-16019
               54-15688
               8087 memory adapter 54-16535

UNIT 2    Same as unit 1

UNIT 3     PC100B motherboard
                RX50 controller
                54-15688

UNIT 4      PC100A motherboard
                 RX50 controller
                  54-15490 memory expansion, no sockets

UNIT 5 and 6  PC100A motherboard
                        RX50 interface

Misc- 2  H7842 power supplies

PRO items  3 PRO 380 motherboards

I hope everything is correct and there are no typo.

From useddec at gmail.com  Fri May  5 01:59:37 2017
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 01:59:37 -0500
Subject: Apollo 013034 mother board
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPGxm55QnpEe+u_0Pxpi55w4WSevFhparnpHfOF2euYgQ@mail.gmail.com>

Please contact me off list with questions. Domestic shipping $15.

From useddec at gmail.com  Fri May  5 02:08:59 2017
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 02:08:59 -0500
Subject: DEC compatables
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPLUuLme9aL_XLXQ5drNOO9b70+DZZMZGGmyP3vCZOB9g@mail.gmail.com>

Please contact me off list with questions and offers. $10 S/H within
US. Ask about overseas


ABLE Quinverter

DILOG

DQ130

DQ686



Emulex



CS09



SC01

SC03

SC21

SC31/BX

TU11

TU121

TU131



UD33 hex



QD01

QD21

QD241

QT131

Thanks, Paul

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri May  5 06:43:41 2017
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 13:43:41 +0200
Subject: Beautifully-posed photos of various kinds of retro kit
In-Reply-To: <a718.5a4d866c.463b8368@aol.com>
References: <a718.5a4d866c.463b8368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFx+3G9GfKPzfYVOhf27h_uVHkUPHYjDjQQnEfAZs7Ehg@mail.gmail.com>

On 3 May 2017 at 21:03,  <COURYHOUSE at aol.com> wrote:
>  great to see things  displayed in a  'setting'  rather than just
> computers on shelves!

:-)

I was just relaying the link -- it's not my work. I sold or gave away
most of my Macs before I switched countries 3y ago, and the rest of my
vintage kit is in boxes in storage.

Except for the pocket-sized devices. I have room for a good few of
them. So I am now restricting my collecting mostly to such things:

* Psion Organizer II LZ, 3C, 5MX, Netbook
* Palm III and V
* Cambridge Z88
* Amstrad NC100
* HP OmniGo

I have an iBook G4 in bits -- it needs a new reed switch, but I lost
my replacement. I want to sell it and get a Pismo Powerbook so I can
run Classic MacOS on it. Then I will probably sell the G3s too; most
are already gone. I have 2 classic mono Macs -- one of them has to go,
and both the G5s.

I have a Thinkpad Butterfly that needs repair, and an ancient 386SX
and a 386 desktop. Not sure why, for the latter. ;-)

And the '80s classics, an Atari ST, Amiga, QL and Archimedes.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri May  5 07:19:29 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 08:19:29 -0400
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?=
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngnNrOicmqzE2xCkLTXxkM4jLJzH_BXw7E-bOCANN-HyEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngnNrOicmqzE2xCkLTXxkM4jLJzH_BXw7E-bOCANN-HyEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <06d0596e-91a8-4c0c-c608-3f30d723f956@gmail.com>

On 05/04/2017 07:39 PM, Terry Stewart via cctech wrote:
>> And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't believe
> you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely with a VAX.
>
> Interestingly PUTR, does seem to accommodate this, and the kind of system I
> have set up (i.e. 1.2 MB 5.25 inch in CMOS even though it's an 8 inch
> drive).  From the readme file...
>
> "SET x: type
>
>
>         Sets the drive type for one of the four possible PC floppy
>         drives A:-D: (note that actual PCs rarely have more than one or
>         two floppy drives).  The type must be RX01, RX02, RX03, RX50,
>         RX33, RX24, RX23, or RX26.  The default value for each drive is
>         whatever was stored in CMOS memory by the ROM BIOS setup
>         utility.
Yes but RX02 uses FM headers and FM2 sectors.  NO FDC CHIP CAN READ THAT.
None of the 765 family or WDC 179x and cousins can.

It was unique to DEC though Intel did similar but not the same on the
MDS800 dual density drives their difference was the whole media
was one recording format either single or double density.

You need a PDP11 with RX02 (or DSD880) or a catsweasel.

I know this as I have the former. 

Allison

>         This command may be useful when the drive types stored in CMOS
>         RAM are incorrect for some reason.  It's also helpful when an 8"
>         drive, or a real DEC RX50 drive, has been attached to the PC
>         using a D Bit "FDADAP" adapter, or something equivalent.  There
>         is no standard for representing these drive types in CMOS RAM.
>         Using real RX50 drives (or other 300 RPM quad-density drives
>         such as the Tandon TM100-3 and TM100-4) is different from RX33s
>         (which is what PUTR calls regular PC 1.2 MB drives) because the
>         motor speed is slower, so the FDC chip must be programmed for a
>         lower data rate to match."
>
>  I didn't spend too much time on PUTR as it seemed to be more for the older
> DEC OSs rather than Vax VMS.  VMS wasn't mentioned as an option in PUTR
> which is why I spent more time experimenting with ODS2, which was VAX
> specific.  And...as I said, PUTR tries to figure out what DEC OS (if any)
> is on the disk and failed to find one.
>
> Maybe I should play around with the switches in PUTR more before I give up
> though....
>
> Terry


From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au  Fri May  5 08:39:40 2017
From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Fri, 05 May 2017 23:39:40 +1000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_?=
 =?utf-8?Q?inch_disks=2E_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <68C82B3A-A1B2-4E5C-B4E9-AD76B3E02DA0@kerberos.davies.net.au>


> On 5 May 2017, at 07:41, Terry Stewart via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 4. How likely is it that disks from a 1985 VAX is in some weird proprietary
> format OTHER than VMS?

It has been a very long time since I had a VAX-11/780 to play with but as other people have mentioned the format is much more likely to be RT-11 than ODS-2.

You mentioned that you had a directory listing of one or more of the floppies.

Can you scan one (or type it up)? The layout of the directory listing should give a clue to the on-disk format.

Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne            | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia            | air, the sky would be painted green" 


From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri May  5 12:24:38 2017
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 05 May 2017 12:24:38 -0500
Subject: Extracting files off =?UTF-8?B?4oCcdW5rbm93buKAnSA4IGluY2ggZA==?=
 =?UTF-8?B?aXNrcy4gQW55IHRob3VnaHRz4oCm?=
In-Reply-To: <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
Message-ID: <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>

On 05/04/2017 06:01 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:
> From: Terry Stewart
> Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 2:41 PM
>
>> Just tying up some unfinished business.  Right at the beginning of this
>> thread I said...
>>> Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch
>>> floppy disks.  They want to see what?s on them, or at least to archive them.
>>> They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
>>> was used to write the files.  They may be CP/M, or some other format
>>> entirely.
>> It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
>> scoured the Internet for something that might read them.
> Stop there.
>
> 8" floppies on a VAX are more likely to be an RT-11 file system for the front
> end PDP-11/03 than anything else you can think of.
>
>
You definitely can built an RMS ODS-2 file system on the Vax 
780 floppy drive.  I don't recall doing this very much, but 
one time when I had to write a program that fixed a damaged 
master file header, i tested it on a floppy file system 
first.  Usually, VAXes had some much better removable media 
devices.

If you can read the first block on track zero, it will 
probably make it clear what the file system is.

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May  5 12:49:59 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 10:49:59 -0700
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?=
In-Reply-To: <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>

On 05/05/2017 10:24 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

> If you can read the first block on track zero, it will probably make
> it clear what the file system is.

I apologize for being dense in this discussion, but it's pretty clear
that the disks are RX02 "double density" (I hesitate to call them MFM),
as that might confuse them with the System/3 MFM that's pretty much a
standard) and not readable by any hardware that the OP has.  As far as I
can tell, the donors no longer own a VAX equipped to read them.

The file system used is therefore of only peripheral importance, is it not?

--Chuck


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri May  5 13:19:08 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 18:19:08 +0000
Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_Extracting_files_off_=93unknown=94_8_inch_disks._Any?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?_thoughts=85?=
In-Reply-To: <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>,
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they are
RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them (myself
being one of them!)

I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing.  Better still, if it was
computer generated scan it and post the whole thng because printout
headers may assist in determing what the disks actually came from.

bill
________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 1:49 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts?

On 05/05/2017 10:24 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

> If you can read the first block on track zero, it will probably make
> it clear what the file system is.

I apologize for being dense in this discussion, but it's pretty clear
that the disks are RX02 "double density" (I hesitate to call them MFM),
as that might confuse them with the System/3 MFM that's pretty much a
standard) and not readable by any hardware that the OP has.  As far as I
can tell, the donors no longer own a VAX equipped to read them.

The file system used is therefore of only peripheral importance, is it not?

--Chuck


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May  5 13:47:08 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 11:47:08 -0700
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?=
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>

On 05/05/2017 11:19 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> 
> Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they
> are RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them
> (myself being one of them!)

Just image them sector-by-sector and let folks fool with the images.
The filesystem details can come later--and are largely irrelevant to the
immediate task at hand.

--Chuck


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri May  5 14:20:27 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 12:20:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?=
In-Reply-To: <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>

>> Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they
>> are RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them
>> (myself being one of them!)

On Fri, 5 May 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Just image them sector-by-sector and let folks fool with the images.
> The filesystem details can come later--and are largely irrelevant to the
> immediate task at hand.

This is a rare occasion that I will disagree with Chuck.

Yes, there are situations, where the file system is unknown or not 
understood, where the best approach is to copy all of the sectors and then 
let the client determine the rearrangement of those into the files that 
they want.   I've done that - both with having my junior staff wade 
through them looking for probable sequences, and even handing the client a 
giant stack of printouts and letting them decide (and then I concatenated 
the goups of sectors that they wanted)

But HERE, one option consists of doing that using flux-transition 
systems, and probably a significant amount of manual labor.  Does software 
currently exist yet for any of the flux-transition systems to easily 
handle sector reads from this format?
OR
the only hardware (other than "flux-transition") that can read such disks 
also probably runs the operating sytstem(s) that understand that file system!

If suitable compensation could be negotiated and arranged, Allison or Bill 
Gunshannon, for example, could put the disk(s) into machines that have not 
only the hardware capabilities, but are running the exact software that is 
called for for getting at the files, and copy the files.  That certainly 
seems more practical than manual regeneration.


However, since the situation is one of "we don't know what is on these, 
and are just CURIOUS", it is likely that there may not be a desire to 
provide sufficient compensation to whoever might undertake the task.
This one is definitely substantially more WORK than "copy the files from 
this Compupro disk".   Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the 
others to.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri May  5 14:26:10 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 19:26:10 +0000
Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_Extracting_files_off_=93unknown=94_8_inch_disks._Any?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?_thoughts=85?=
In-Reply-To: <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>,
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB13026EA1D8860AE34E3F4B8AEDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>

But I thought the problem was that most disk controllers can't do RX02.
Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or Cryoflux.

bill

________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 2:47 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts?

On 05/05/2017 11:19 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
> Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they
> are RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them
> (myself being one of them!)

Just image them sector-by-sector and let folks fool with the images.
The filesystem details can come later--and are largely irrelevant to the
immediate task at hand.

--Chuck


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri May  5 14:28:28 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 19:28:28 +0000
Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_Re:_Extracting_files_off_=93unknown=94_8_inch_disks.?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?_Any_thoughts=85?=
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>,
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB13022A4A4CFD229295FDAA72EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.

bill

________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 3:20 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts?

>> Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they
>> are RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them
>> (myself being one of them!)

On Fri, 5 May 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Just image them sector-by-sector and let folks fool with the images.
> The filesystem details can come later--and are largely irrelevant to the
> immediate task at hand.

This is a rare occasion that I will disagree with Chuck.

Yes, there are situations, where the file system is unknown or not
understood, where the best approach is to copy all of the sectors and then
let the client determine the rearrangement of those into the files that
they want.   I've done that - both with having my junior staff wade
through them looking for probable sequences, and even handing the client a
giant stack of printouts and letting them decide (and then I concatenated
the goups of sectors that they wanted)

But HERE, one option consists of doing that using flux-transition
systems, and probably a significant amount of manual labor.  Does software
currently exist yet for any of the flux-transition systems to easily
handle sector reads from this format?
OR
the only hardware (other than "flux-transition") that can read such disks
also probably runs the operating sytstem(s) that understand that file system!

If suitable compensation could be negotiated and arranged, Allison or Bill
Gunshannon, for example, could put the disk(s) into machines that have not
only the hardware capabilities, but are running the exact software that is
called for for getting at the files, and copy the files.  That certainly
seems more practical than manual regeneration.


However, since the situation is one of "we don't know what is on these,
and are just CURIOUS", it is likely that there may not be a desire to
provide sufficient compensation to whoever might undertake the task.
This one is definitely substantially more WORK than "copy the files from
this Compupro disk".   Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the
others to.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred                 cisin at xenosoft.com

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri May  5 14:33:13 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 12:33:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_Extracting_files_off_=93unknown=94_8_inch_disks._Any?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?_thoughts=85?=
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB13026EA1D8860AE34E3F4B8AEDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>, 
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13026EA1D8860AE34E3F4B8AEDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051226540.30091@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> But I thought the problem was that most disk controllers can't do RX02.
> Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or Cryoflux.

That's right.
Chuck's suggestion would require that somebody who has a 
flux-transition device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central Point Option board, 
etc.) would have to do the sector imaging.

Well, or, . . .
somebody who has an RX02 setup, such as you or Allison, could image the 
sectors, instead of copying the files,  which might be appropriate if it 
turns out that the OS that these were created with is unavailable.   How 
many operating systems use RX02?


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri May  5 14:39:31 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 12:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_Re:_Extracting_files_off_=93unknown=94_8_inch_disks.?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?_Any_thoughts=85?=
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB13022A4A4CFD229295FDAA72EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>,
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN3PR01MB13022A4A4CFD229295FDAA72EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051235320.30091@shell.lmi.net>

> > Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.

On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.

I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May  5 14:46:38 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 12:46:38 -0700
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?=
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <96028118-5b8d-a72d-bc45-d5ee0f9b83b0@sydex.com>

On 05/05/2017 12:20 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> This is a rare occasion that I will disagree with Chuck.

I'm fine with that.  Let a thousand flowers bloom...

> Yes, there are situations, where the file system is unknown or not
> understood, where the best approach is to copy all of the sectors and
> then let the client determine the rearrangement of those into the files
> that they want.   I've done that - both with having my junior staff wade
> through them looking for probable sequences, and even handing the client
> a giant stack of printouts and letting them decide (and then I
> concatenated the goups of sectors that they wanted)

I didn't mean what I think you thought I meant.  The immediate problem
is getting data--any data at all.   If you can retrieve every sector on
the disk, then it's just a matter of software to unravel the filesystem.
 DEC filesystems in general are pretty well documented, even if you have
to wade through the strangeness of things such as RAD50 file names.

Yes, flux-transition (e.g. catweasel) tools do exist for RX02
double-density reading and writing.  I've used them in the past. At
least one runs under Linux and allows one to copy dd-style sector by sector.

But first you need the bits.  Without those, the filesystem is just a
useless abstraction.

When I retrieve specialized formats (e.g. 8" closed-caption (WGBH)
disks), I acknowledge that there's a lot of guess-and-by-gosh to
unraveling them as no documentation seems to be extant. I'll always
include a "raw" sector-by-sector image as well as my
interpretation/translation. Similarly, for things like Brother 120K and
240K floppies, I keep the flux-transition recording around for future
reference until the customer signals his satisfaction.

Sometimes the filesystem organization is well documented, but the disk
has been corrupted (you see this with Apple HFS floppies and hard disks
more than you'd think) and you have to extract data without the benefit
of the filesystem structural information, piece by piece.  It's a manual
process and fraught with error.  So you keep the "raw" image around in
case the inevitable happens.

Data first--interpretation later.

--Chuck


From js at cimmeri.com  Fri May  5 14:51:00 2017
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Fri, 05 May 2017 14:51:00 -0500
Subject: Extracting files off =?windows-1252?Q?=93unknown=94_8_in?=
 =?windows-1252?Q?ch_disks=2E_Any_thoughts=85?=
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051226540.30091@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>,
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13026EA1D8860AE34E3F4B8AEDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051226540.30091@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <590CD7A4.7060100@cimmeri.com>



On 5/5/2017 2:33 PM, Fred Cisin via 
cctalk wrote:
> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon 
> via cctalk wrote:
>> But I thought the problem was that 
>> most disk controllers can't do RX02.
>> Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or 
>> Cryoflux.
>
> That's right.
> Chuck's suggestion would require that 
> somebody who has a flux-transition 
> device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central 
> Point Option board, etc.) would have 
> to do the sector imaging.
>
> Well, or, . . .
> somebody who has an RX02 setup, such 
> as you or Allison, could image the 
> sectors, instead of copying the 
> files,  which might be appropriate if 
> it turns out that the OS that these 
> were created with is unavailable.   
> How many operating systems use RX02?

In case not everyone noticed, but 
Terry's already given up on this.

It is not necessary to become challenged 
by and read every mystery disk in the 
entire world.  Things that are 
forgotten, probably don't deserve all 
this attention.

- J.

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri May  5 14:55:42 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 19:55:42 +0000
Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_RE:_Extracting_files_off_=93unknown=94_8_inch_disks.?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?_Any_thoughts=85?=
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051226540.30091@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>, 
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13026EA1D8860AE34E3F4B8AEDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>,
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051226540.30091@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB1302A095B652A2DBC05D9639EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>

All the PDP-11 ones.  The directory listing would give a pretty good idea
which one it was.  I am prety sure VMS actually could, too.  And then
you have BSD and Ultrix on the VAX as well.  Lots of choices.  

Believe it or not, I am pretty sure I can make a disk image from the floppies
using VTServer that would then work on something like SIMH.

Like I said, lots of choices.  And it could all be done for the cost of postage
I would imagine.  I'm retired, and bored, always looking for things to keep
me busy.  Doesn't look like its going to warm up enough this year to do
any work outside.  Snow showers predicted for this weekend.  :-(

bill

________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 3:33 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: RE: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts?

On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> But I thought the problem was that most disk controllers can't do RX02.
> Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or Cryoflux.

That's right.
Chuck's suggestion would require that somebody who has a
flux-transition device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central Point Option board,
etc.) would have to do the sector imaging.

Well, or, . . .
somebody who has an RX02 setup, such as you or Allison, could image the
sectors, instead of copying the files,  which might be appropriate if it
turns out that the OS that these were created with is unavailable.   How
many operating systems use RX02?


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred                 cisin at xenosoft.com

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri May  5 14:55:55 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 12:55:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Extracting files off =?windows-1252?Q?=93unknown=94_8_in?=
 =?windows-1252?Q?ch_disks=2E_Any_thoughts=85?=
In-Reply-To: <590CD7A4.7060100@cimmeri.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>, 
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13026EA1D8860AE34E3F4B8AEDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051226540.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <590CD7A4.7060100@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051253020.30091@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 5 May 2017, js--- via cctalk wrote:
> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this.
> It is not necessary to become challenged by and read every mystery disk in 
> the entire world.  Things that are forgotten, probably don't deserve all this 
> attention.

We do put far more effort into such projects than they are "worth".
What does doing a crossword or Sudoku accomplish?

Sometimes we learn valuable information that can be applied to future 
tasks.   Sometimes not.


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri May  5 14:58:00 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 19:58:00 +0000
Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_Extracting_files_off_=93unknown=94_8_inch_disks._Any?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?_thoughts=85?=
In-Reply-To: <590CD7A4.7060100@cimmeri.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>, 
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13026EA1D8860AE34E3F4B8AEDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051226540.30091@shell.lmi.net>,
 <590CD7A4.7060100@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB130247E9E8F604F9B657A08CEDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


Well, the probably do when your doing it for fun.

bill

________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of js--- via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 3:51 PM
To: General at ezwind.net; Discussion@
Subject: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts?

On 5/5/2017 2:33 PM, Fred Cisin via
cctalk wrote:
> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon
> via cctalk wrote:
>> But I thought the problem was that
>> most disk controllers can't do RX02.
>> Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or
>> Cryoflux.
>
> That's right.
> Chuck's suggestion would require that
> somebody who has a flux-transition
> device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central
> Point Option board, etc.) would have
> to do the sector imaging.
>
> Well, or, . . .
> somebody who has an RX02 setup, such
> as you or Allison, could image the
> sectors, instead of copying the
> files,  which might be appropriate if
> it turns out that the OS that these
> were created with is unavailable.
> How many operating systems use RX02?

In case not everyone noticed, but
Terry's already given up on this.

It is not necessary to become challenged
by and read every mystery disk in the
entire world.  Things that are
forgotten, probably don't deserve all
this attention.

- J.

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri May  5 14:58:48 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 19:58:48 +0000
Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_Extracting_files_off_=93unknown=94_8_inch_disks._Any?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?_thoughts=85?=
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051253020.30091@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>, 
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13026EA1D8860AE34E3F4B8AEDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051226540.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <590CD7A4.7060100@cimmeri.com>,
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051253020.30091@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB13025328568F8E314CFDD1F2EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


And, sometimes we just have fun.

bill


________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 3:55 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts?

On Fri, 5 May 2017, js--- via cctalk wrote:
> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this.
> It is not necessary to become challenged by and read every mystery disk in
> the entire world.  Things that are forgotten, probably don't deserve all this
> attention.

We do put far more effort into such projects than they are "worth".
What does doing a crossword or Sudoku accomplish?

Sometimes we learn valuable information that can be applied to future
tasks.   Sometimes not.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri May  5 15:14:27 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 13:14:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?=
In-Reply-To: <96028118-5b8d-a72d-bc45-d5ee0f9b83b0@sydex.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <96028118-5b8d-a72d-bc45-d5ee0f9b83b0@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051256110.30091@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 5 May 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> I didn't mean what I think you thought I meant.
correct
I apologize

> The immediate problem
> is getting data--any data at all.   If you can retrieve every sector on
> the disk, then it's just a matter of software to unravel the filesystem.
> DEC filesystems in general are pretty well documented, even if you have
> to wade through the strangeness of things such as RAD50 file names.

Yep
Sometimes easy, sometimes not

> Yes, flux-transition (e.g. catweasel) tools do exist for RX02
> double-density reading and writing.  I've used them in the past. At
> least one runs under Linux and allows one to copy dd-style sector by sector.

good to know!
I don't anticipate doing any, but I'm glad to see that somebody has put 
such together.

> But first you need the bits.  Without those, the filesystem is just a
> useless abstraction.

Quite true.
But, it turns out that there are multiple people handy who happen to have 
the machine.  And they could TRIVIALLY accomplish what we would have to 
put a little bit of work into.  If there weren't, then the next step 
would, indeed be to look at raw images of tracks.

> Data first--interpretation later.

Although, when I have an "unknown" disk, before I launch a sector editor, 
I type "DIR", just in case it ISN'T anything challenging.  I didn't try 
flux-transition until I failed with my sector editor.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May  5 16:06:31 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 14:06:31 -0700
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?=
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051256110.30091@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <96028118-5b8d-a72d-bc45-d5ee0f9b83b0@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051256110.30091@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <6504abc3-f494-83b8-c14a-da116985fbb4@sydex.com>

On 05/05/2017 01:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Although, when I have an "unknown" disk, before I launch a sector 
> editor, I type "DIR", just in case it ISN'T anything challenging.  I 
> didn't try flux-transition until I failed with my sector editor.

The hardest that I've run into so far is verifying that a floppy has
*nothing* on it.  Flux transition sampling showed zero correlation of
timings (i.e. SD almost 0.0).   You could use magnetic developer and see
the tracks, but a photomicrograph showed no distinct reversal
boundaries.  Probably DC-erased was my best guess.

--Chuck



From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri May  5 10:10:45 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 11:10:45 -0400
Subject: Extracting files off unknown 8 inch disks. Any thoughts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041824270.24869@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041452120.24869@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZng=JvKPCwq64VKTXFg4koth1UwBw4ZHw+5y9e3EnwYBtbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041532010.24869@shell.lmi.net>
 <358bc61f-d343-5bb4-9620-5f0b44096595@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705041824270.24869@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <eca39e5d-2b14-68ed-3700-ccffaf1d160e@gmail.com>

On 05/04/2017 09:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> Thank you!
>
> Now, the question will be whether Allison has some free time to check
> them out for Terry.
>
I could...  If I had the time and no other competing projects.

I'm far from the only one around with a PDP-11 with RX02 or a
microVAX-II with a
RXV21/RX02 spare to swap in.

The process would be reading the media and transfering to a PC via
serial line at
maybe 19.2K.

If the media is good its not so bad at 500k max.  If the media is past
its "use by"
date it will gum the heads and require pulling out the drives to clean
the heads.
Thats time consuming.  If the format is not as expected then it s a read
and
capture sectors project, more time. 

The key is are you sure the media is formatted as ODS-II?   I'd consider
that very
unlikely as the overhead is high.  Even VAXen could save to small media
with
multiple formats not the same as whats on the big RDxx, RLxx, RAxxx or
RZxx media.
Typical it is likely files-11.

Suggesting to Terry, learn DEC systems.

One or two for giggles maybe, a significant volume of them comes with
cash as
its a time consuming commercial effort.


Allison

>
> Experience always beats speculation:
>
> On Thu, 4 May 2017, allison wrote:
>> First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2
>> aka RX02.
>>
>> RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track  PC can read them.
>>
>> RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is
>> totally
>> unreadable with any LSI controller.  It uses FM headers to confuse
>> the act.
>> To read that you need:
>> - RX02 and a compatible system.
>> -  one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300
>> family chips)  in a DEC box (and cpu).
>> -Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC.
>>
>> Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8"
>> SSSD).  It can also read and write
>> RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01.   RX02
>> format was unique to DEC
>> and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware
>> compatible controllers.
>>
>> First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the
>> second.
>>
>> Then the possible 8" ODS formats are....
>>
>> DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit
>> formatting).
>>
>> The  PDP-11 group  RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common.  Note PDT150
>> is also PDP-11 RX01.
>> This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks.
>> The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and
>> 3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over
>> time.
>>
>> VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode.  It is PDP11 and
>> RX01 media.
>> Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any
>> format compatible with
>> the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target.
>>
>> I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for
>> the VAX78x family
>> as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive.   To do that it had to
>> have a unibus  RX controller
>> and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had
>> utilities for most all the
>> PDP11 formats.
>>
>> Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode.
>> Microvax and later machine
>> did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot
>> sequence.   In those
>> cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax
>> (not a supported config)
>> assembled as a hack.  Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used
>> RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5")
>> as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later
>> firmware supported 5.25" Teac
>> and 3.5" Sony drives as well.  RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50  and 3.5" Sony
>> drives.  Because of this
>> and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used.  The RQDX
>> controllers could do the stated
>> floppies even is MFM  disks were not connected.
>>
>> Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media.
>>
>> in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough.  IF RX02
>> a pdp11 and RX02(or third party
>> equivalent) makes it easy.    To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux
>> reader, 765 and later clones cannot.
>>
>> How do I know.  I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
>> uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
>> I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
>> and a CP/M utility that
>> knew RT11 format.  IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
>> RX01 media using FIT or other
>> tools.
>>
>>
>> Allison


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri May  5 10:13:39 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 11:13:39 -0400
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?=
In-Reply-To: <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
Message-ID: <bb4d773b-bf59-24e3-d435-4567d2c55665@gmail.com>

On 05/04/2017 07:01 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:
> From: Terry Stewart
> Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 2:41 PM
>
>> Just tying up some unfinished business.  Right at the beginning of this
>> thread I said...
>>> Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch
>>> floppy disks.  They want to see what?s on them, or at least to archive them.
>>> They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
>>> was used to write the files.  They may be CP/M, or some other format
>>> entirely.
>> It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
>> scoured the Internet for something that might read them.
> Stop there.
>
> 8" floppies on a VAX are more likely to be an RT-11 file system for the front
> end PDP-11/03 than anything else you can think of.
>
> The rest is left as an exercise for the reader.
Not absolutely true!   THe boot system is a PDP-11, however the VAX can
have a Unibus or QBUS (depending on flavor) where a RX02 controller can
plug in.

The likely file system is FILES-11.  But can be "othter", especially if
its a unix machine.

Allison
>                                                                 Rich
>
>
> Rich Alderson
> Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
> Living Computers: Museum + Labs
> 2245 1st Avenue S
> Seattle, WA 98134
>
> mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org
>
> http://www.LivingComputers.org/


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri May  5 15:50:27 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 16:50:27 -0400
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?=
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051235320.30091@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN3PR01MB13022A4A4CFD229295FDAA72EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051235320.30091@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <d46dabd3-6dc0-c02c-0e00-699f7e6db418@gmail.com>

On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> > Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>
> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
>
> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>
>
Free beer?!?  No, no,no...

Allison

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Fri May  5 16:58:44 2017
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 09:58:44 +1200
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
In-Reply-To: <d46dabd3-6dc0-c02c-0e00-699f7e6db418@gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN3PR01MB13022A4A4CFD229295FDAA72EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051235320.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <d46dabd3-6dc0-c02c-0e00-699f7e6db418@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACaZngn6hhZwsDk44Vd+Gj8-=UBdqypaQTs7UcaHq_db+03Piw@mail.gmail.com>

>In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this

Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
inclined.

>I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
>printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing

Here it is:

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg

Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...

Terry (Tez)


On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> >> > Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
> >
> > On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> >> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
> >
> > I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
> >
> >
> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>
> Allison
>

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Fri May  5 17:01:51 2017
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 10:01:51 +1200
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngn6hhZwsDk44Vd+Gj8-=UBdqypaQTs7UcaHq_db+03Piw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN3PR01MB13022A4A4CFD229295FDAA72EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051235320.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <d46dabd3-6dc0-c02c-0e00-699f7e6db418@gmail.com>
 <CACaZngn6hhZwsDk44Vd+Gj8-=UBdqypaQTs7UcaHq_db+03Piw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACaZngmt5d_5hXyNHn4if5btzjjECTd-JrAfJVNGB3nWr+j=qQ@mail.gmail.com>

?Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single Density.
> It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It can't see
any data.
>Could be an RX02 disk as people say....

Oh, and sector size is 128 bytes.


On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Terry Stewart <terry at webweavers.co.nz>
wrote:

> >In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
>
> Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
> owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
> disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
> certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
> inclined.
>
> >I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
> >printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
>
> Here it is:
>
> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-
> vax-disk-cover.jpg
>
> Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
> Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
> can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
>
> Terry (Tez)
>
>
> On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> >> > Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>> >
>> > On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> >> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
>> >
>> > I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>> >
>> >
>> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>>
>> Allison
>>
>
>

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri May  5 17:11:20 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 22:11:20 +0000
Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_Extracting_files_off_=93unknown=94_8_inch_disks._Any?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?_thoughts=85?=
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngn6hhZwsDk44Vd+Gj8-=UBdqypaQTs7UcaHq_db+03Piw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN3PR01MB13022A4A4CFD229295FDAA72EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051235320.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <d46dabd3-6dc0-c02c-0e00-699f7e6db418@gmail.com>,
 <CACaZngn6hhZwsDk44Vd+Gj8-=UBdqypaQTs7UcaHq_db+03Piw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB1302D0DE4A4F32A6682455FEEDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


Definitely VMS.  And looks like RX02 (DEVICE Type DY).
I probably couldn't read it on a PDP-11, but I guess it depends on what
the default file structure on a VMS RX02 is.  Of course a PDP-11 could
probably read the raw disk into an image and then you could  setup
a VAX with VMS in SIMH and get at them.  Oh, and it's not as much
work as it may sound like.  Looks like they are Runoff files.


bill

________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Terry Stewart via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 5:58 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts?

>In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this

Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
inclined.

>I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
>printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing

Here it is:

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg

Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...

Terry (Tez)


On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> >> > Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
> >
> > On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> >> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
> >
> > I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
> >
> >
> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>
> Allison
>

From jsw at ieee.org  Fri May  5 17:13:22 2017
From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 17:13:22 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_?=
 =?utf-8?Q?inch_disks=2E_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngn6hhZwsDk44Vd+Gj8-=UBdqypaQTs7UcaHq_db+03Piw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN3PR01MB13022A4A4CFD229295FDAA72EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051235320.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <d46dabd3-6dc0-c02c-0e00-699f7e6db418@gmail.com>
 <CACaZngn6hhZwsDk44Vd+Gj8-=UBdqypaQTs7UcaHq_db+03Piw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5F6D1A17-4451-4EB0-B73A-2D2FD0FC4F5D@ieee.org>


> On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
> 
> Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
> owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
> disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
> certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
> inclined.
> 
>> I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
>> printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
> 
> Here it is:
> 
> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg
> 
> Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
> Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
> can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
> 
> Terry (Tez)


Looks like ODS2.  The files appear to be RUNOFF.   Quick guess is that they
are the appendices to some document or manuscript.


Jerry


> 
> 
> On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>>>> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>>> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
>>> 
>>> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>>> 
>>> 
>> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>> 
>> Allison
>> 

Jerry Weiss
jsw at ieee.org




From jsw at ieee.org  Fri May  5 17:26:37 2017
From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 17:26:37 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_?=
 =?utf-8?Q?inch_disks=2E_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
In-Reply-To: <5F6D1A17-4451-4EB0-B73A-2D2FD0FC4F5D@ieee.org>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN3PR01MB13022A4A4CFD229295FDAA72EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051235320.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <d46dabd3-6dc0-c02c-0e00-699f7e6db418@gmail.com>
 <CACaZngn6hhZwsDk44Vd+Gj8-=UBdqypaQTs7UcaHq_db+03Piw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5F6D1A17-4451-4EB0-B73A-2D2FD0FC4F5D@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <18CA69B4-2166-471D-9C56-6096BAB0E61C@ieee.org>


> On May 5, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Jerry Weiss <jsw at ieee.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>> 
>>> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
>> 
>> Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
>> owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
>> disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
>> certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
>> inclined.
>> 
>>> I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
>>> printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
>> 
>> Here it is:
>> 
>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg <http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg>
>> 
>> Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
>> Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
>> can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
>> 
>> Terry (Tez)
> 
> 
> Looks like ODS2.  The files appear to be RUNOFF.   Quick guess is that they
> are the appendices to some document or manuscript.
> 
> 

Mr Obvious here (missed the handwritten text in the label at first). 

The .RNO files should contain human readable text.  It no-one has a VAX
with an RX02, it should be possible to image the disk from a PDP11 and
then mount the image in elsewhere to recover the data.




> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>>>>> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>>>> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
>>>> 
>>>> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>>> 
>>> Allison
>>> 
> 
> Jerry Weiss
> jsw at ieee.org <mailto:jsw at ieee.org>
> 
> 
> 

Jerry Weiss
jsw at ieee.org




From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri May  5 19:16:31 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 17:16:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngmt5d_5hXyNHn4if5btzjjECTd-JrAfJVNGB3nWr+j=qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN3PR01MB13022A4A4CFD229295FDAA72EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051235320.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <d46dabd3-6dc0-c02c-0e00-699f7e6db418@gmail.com>
 <CACaZngn6hhZwsDk44Vd+Gj8-=UBdqypaQTs7UcaHq_db+03Piw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACaZngmt5d_5hXyNHn4if5btzjjECTd-JrAfJVNGB3nWr+j=qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051646420.30091@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 6 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
> ?Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single Density.
>> It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It can't see
> any data.
>> Could be an RX02 disk as people say....
>
> Oh, and sector size is 128 bytes.

Well, yes and no.

the RX02 can do a 128 byte per sector format in FM (single density)

BUT, then it can [OPTIONALLY] replace the content 128 byte FM sectors with 
256 byte MFM ("double" density) content, while leaving the FM sector 
headers in place.
Resulting in FM headers (that presumably SAY "128 bytes"), with 256 
bytes of MFM content.

In addition to the index address mark and related inter sector gaps, 
(check out P7 of: 
http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/shugart/SA8xx/50664-0_SA800_801_Theory_of_Operations_Apr76.pdf
each header would have an ID Address Mark, the cylinder number, the head 
number, the sector number, and the sector size (0 for 128, 1 for 256, 2 for 512, 3 for 1024, 
but in THIS case, it seems to refer to the space provided rather than the 
actual content?), and a 2 byte CRC.  After a suitable gap for write 
splice, the content has a Data Address Mark, the content, and a 2 byte 
CRC.  Then another gap before the next sector.
(In THAT exaample, being single sided with 128 byte sectors, both the head 
number and sector size are listed as zeroes)


Bill deserves a beer just for his offer to help.

Allison's expertise is worth more than we could afford to pay for.


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Fri May  5 20:23:11 2017
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 18:23:11 -0700
Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFJlOiBFeHRyYWN0aW5nIGZpbGVzIG9mZiDigJx1bmtub3du4oCdIDggaW5jaCBkaQ==?=
 =?UTF-8?B?c2tzLiBBbnkgdGhvdWdodHPigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051646420.30091@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN3PR01MB13022A4A4CFD229295FDAA72EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051235320.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <d46dabd3-6dc0-c02c-0e00-699f7e6db418@gmail.com>
 <CACaZngn6hhZwsDk44Vd+Gj8-=UBdqypaQTs7UcaHq_db+03Piw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACaZngmt5d_5hXyNHn4if5btzjjECTd-JrAfJVNGB3nWr+j=qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051646420.30091@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+ht=e=wtcjAbJj+M5Lbi1w5WPka_1BcZaXAv4YgHHjcg@mail.gmail.com>

As far as RX02 formatted 8-inch floppies go, I have some original DEC
RT-11 V05.01 RX02 format distribution floppies which I managed to dump
to disk images a few years ago. I forget exactly how I did it now.

It was either with a real DEC RX02 drive and an M8029 RXV21 controller
in a Q-Bus PDP-11 system, or with an Scientific Micro Systems SMS1000
which has an RX02 compatible disk controller on its main "foundation
module" for a standard TM848-2E floppy drive.

Then I booted 2.11BSD on one of the two PDP-11 systems and simply used
"dd" to dump all of the floppy sectors to image files, then used ftp
to get the image files out to a modern system. Fortunately I didn't
have to deal with any bad sectors. Not sure how that would have
complicated things if I did.

Next to use those floppy image files with SIMH I had to reshuffle the
sector order into new image files copies. The RX02 driver in software
does a 2:1 sector interleave, a 6 sector per track skew, and starts at
track 1 and wraps around to track 0, which had to be undone.

(See the "raxfactr" routine in the 2.11BSC source file src/sys/pdpuba/rx.c)

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri May  5 17:02:55 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 18:02:55 -0400
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?=
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051226540.30091@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13026EA1D8860AE34E3F4B8AEDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051226540.30091@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <0f146512-f794-2b1f-021d-310d810e8471@gmail.com>

On 05/05/2017 03:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote:
> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> But I thought the problem was that most disk controllers can't do RX02.
>> Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or Cryoflux.
>
> That's right.
> Chuck's suggestion would require that somebody who has a
> flux-transition device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central Point Option
> board, etc.) would have to do the sector imaging.
>
> Well, or, . . .
> somebody who has an RX02 setup, such as you or Allison, could image
> the sectors, instead of copying the files,  which might be appropriate
> if it turns out that the OS that these were created with is
> unavailable.   How many operating systems use RX02?
>
>
In the PDP-8 realm not less than two maybe others.
In the PDP-10 realm not less than a handful Tops10. ITC, more.
In the PDP-11 realm not less than four, RT11, RSTS, RSX11, TSX-11,
unix(several) and XXDP come to mind.
In the VAX realm not less than 3 come to mind, VMS, VAX-RT, Ultrix,
Unix, Others?

Different version may have also added variations.

Allison

> -- 
> Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin at xenosoft.com


From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri May  5 17:27:16 2017
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 15:27:16 -0700
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
In-Reply-To: <0f146512-f794-2b1f-021d-310d810e8471@gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13026EA1D8860AE34E3F4B8AEDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051226540.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <0f146512-f794-2b1f-021d-310d810e8471@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSAno10LPiw8NVCP_BZZb07NChRRpT9U7=OAyUrB16m=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 3:02 PM, allison via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> In the PDP-10 realm not less than a handful Tops10. ITC, more.
>

TOPS-10 doesn't have any filesystems for floppy disks, though the KL10
front-end PDP-11/40 running RSX-20F does, and there are utilities to access
RSX and RT11 filesystems from TOPS-10.

AFAIK, the situation is the same for TOPS-20.  I don't have any idea
whether ITS, WAITS, Tenex, or the Compuserve Monitor ever had any different
floppy disk support.

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri May  5 18:16:36 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 19:16:36 -0400
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?=
In-Reply-To: <18CA69B4-2166-471D-9C56-6096BAB0E61C@ieee.org>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN3PR01MB13022A4A4CFD229295FDAA72EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051235320.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <d46dabd3-6dc0-c02c-0e00-699f7e6db418@gmail.com>
 <CACaZngn6hhZwsDk44Vd+Gj8-=UBdqypaQTs7UcaHq_db+03Piw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5F6D1A17-4451-4EB0-B73A-2D2FD0FC4F5D@ieee.org>
 <18CA69B4-2166-471D-9C56-6096BAB0E61C@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <9b9c7697-e962-7add-f95f-e952e63589de@gmail.com>

After looking at all that...

The prompt is VMS the $.  The date makes it V3.6 to 4.2.
I'd still bet that its Files-11 not ODS-II.

I'd have to check of the DCL prompt under RSX-11 is also $.

Either way the save command under VMS will have defaults for the device
target
and that a lookup on the Orange or Grey wall (manuals).

Allison


On 05/05/2017 06:26 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote:
>> On May 5, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Jerry Weiss <jsw at ieee.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
>>> Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
>>> owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
>>> disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
>>> certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
>>> inclined.
>>>
>>>> I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
>>>> printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
>>> Here it is:
>>>
>>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg <http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg>
>>>
>>> Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
>>> Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
>>> can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
>>>
>>> Terry (Tez)
>>
>> Looks like ODS2.  The files appear to be RUNOFF.   Quick guess is that they
>> are the appendices to some document or manuscript.
>>
>>
> Mr Obvious here (missed the handwritten text in the label at first). 
>
> The .RNO files should contain human readable text.  It no-one has a VAX
> with an RX02, it should be possible to image the disk from a PDP11 and
> then mount the image in elsewhere to recover the data.
>
>
>
>
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>>>>>> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>>>>> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>>>>> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
>>>>> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>>>>
>>>> Allison
>>>>
>> Jerry Weiss
>> jsw at ieee.org <mailto:jsw at ieee.org>
>>
>>
>>
> Jerry Weiss
> jsw at ieee.org
>
>
>


From imp at bsdimp.com  Sat May  6 00:13:11 2017
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 23:13:11 -0600
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
In-Reply-To: <9b9c7697-e962-7add-f95f-e952e63589de@gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN3PR01MB13022A4A4CFD229295FDAA72EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051235320.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <d46dabd3-6dc0-c02c-0e00-699f7e6db418@gmail.com>
 <CACaZngn6hhZwsDk44Vd+Gj8-=UBdqypaQTs7UcaHq_db+03Piw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5F6D1A17-4451-4EB0-B73A-2D2FD0FC4F5D@ieee.org>
 <18CA69B4-2166-471D-9C56-6096BAB0E61C@ieee.org>
 <9b9c7697-e962-7add-f95f-e952e63589de@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfpmXuEe0tRvWVU6A=U8n=jPdYR=ru3bf7y_iL88J_BNVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 5:16 PM, allison via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> After looking at all that...
>
> The prompt is VMS the $.  The date makes it V3.6 to 4.2.
> I'd still bet that its Files-11 not ODS-II.
>
> I'd have to check of the DCL prompt under RSX-11 is also $.

It is, though I don't know the version range. At least that's my
memory from 30 years ago when we once had to run RSX-11 for some
purpose that I've long forgotten...

Warner

> Either way the save command under VMS will have defaults for the device
> target
> and that a lookup on the Orange or Grey wall (manuals).
>
> Allison
>
>
> On 05/05/2017 06:26 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote:
>>> On May 5, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Jerry Weiss <jsw at ieee.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
>>>> Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
>>>> owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
>>>> disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
>>>> certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
>>>> inclined.
>>>>
>>>>> I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
>>>>> printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
>>>> Here it is:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg <http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg>
>>>>
>>>> Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
>>>> Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
>>>> can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
>>>>
>>>> Terry (Tez)
>>>
>>> Looks like ODS2.  The files appear to be RUNOFF.   Quick guess is that they
>>> are the appendices to some document or manuscript.
>>>
>>>
>> Mr Obvious here (missed the handwritten text in the label at first).
>>
>> The .RNO files should contain human readable text.  It no-one has a VAX
>> with an RX02, it should be possible to image the disk from a PDP11 and
>> then mount the image in elsewhere to recover the data.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>>>>>>> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>>>>>> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>>>>>> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
>>>>>> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>>>>>
>>>>> Allison
>>>>>
>>> Jerry Weiss
>>> jsw at ieee.org <mailto:jsw at ieee.org>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Jerry Weiss
>> jsw at ieee.org
>>
>>
>>
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat May  6 00:17:08 2017
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 22:17:08 -0700
Subject: Displaywriter disks
Message-ID: <f2e8e98c-447b-1293-8d48-742770a33b5a@bitsavers.org>

I got lucky, and this ebay lot
http://www.ebay.com/itm/382069259067

contained single density copies of textpack 4, four copies of textpack 
6, chart pack, report pack, bisync, async, and the training disks

images under http://bitsavers.org/bits/IBM/Displaywriter


--

these are very difficult to find


From useddec at gmail.com  Sat May  6 00:18:55 2017
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 00:18:55 -0500
Subject: HP 07970-60580 tape head assy
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNsQQ4u5Qr34JkXb-Pvyb=T=hbAvdM97c8Rw6VNhBrCaA@mail.gmail.com>

>From a 7970-E? please contact me off list with questions and offers.
Shipping $10 within US.

Thanks, Paul

From sellam.ismail at gmail.com  Fri May  5 23:57:37 2017
From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 21:57:37 -0700
Subject: Complete IBM PCjr system for sale
Message-ID: <CAHJBWnSE2HU1N3jsAA+sW9GgLLUgtjEdMmCHPOS6MPi8E8MqFg@mail.gmail.com>

I have a complete/working IBM PCjr system for sale.  It includes monitor,
manuals and software, all in excellent condition.  Details are here:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57574-IBM-PCjr-with-both-regular-and-quot-chiclet-quot-keyboards-and-monitor-accessories

Thanks!

Sellam

From fjkraan at xs4all.nl  Sat May  6 13:35:29 2017
From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan)
Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 20:35:29 +0200
Subject: Philips Training Manual Introduction to Magnetic Disk Drives
Message-ID: <4978cda1-65c6-57df-b8ac-2961c8726f8e@xs4all.nl>

Hi All,

For all who missed the 1980's technical details of diskdrives or lost 
the details in the mean time, I just put the "Training Manual 
Introduction to Magnetic Disk Drives" online which Philips provided in 
1987 as part of a Field Training. The rest of the documentation are 
technical manuals of disk drives like the Shugart SA455/456, SA400L, 
SA800/801 and CDC 9406. Assuming those are available, so I won't scan them

This manual covers floppy drives and hard disks, the latter with ST506 
and SMD interfaces.

http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/divcomp/doc/TM_AItMDD.pdf
http://electrickery.hosting.philpem.me.uk/comp/divcomp/doc/TM_AItMDD.pdf

Enjoy & greetings,

Fred Jan

From jsw at ieee.org  Sat May  6 15:21:35 2017
From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss)
Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 15:21:35 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_?=
 =?utf-8?Q?inch_disks=2E_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
In-Reply-To: <9b9c7697-e962-7add-f95f-e952e63589de@gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN3PR01MB13022A4A4CFD229295FDAA72EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051235320.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <d46dabd3-6dc0-c02c-0e00-699f7e6db418@gmail.com>
 <CACaZngn6hhZwsDk44Vd+Gj8-=UBdqypaQTs7UcaHq_db+03Piw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5F6D1A17-4451-4EB0-B73A-2D2FD0FC4F5D@ieee.org>
 <18CA69B4-2166-471D-9C56-6096BAB0E61C@ieee.org>
 <9b9c7697-e962-7add-f95f-e952e63589de@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CFC2DD49-C87C-4389-8571-39FE3B9979D4@ieee.org>

I stand corrected.  It appears that the handwritten label has a ODS1 style numerical UIC.

The printed directory may not actually be from the floppy media itself.  It is
hierarchical.   So perhaps it is from some ODS2 media that is holding the files 
that are being transferred to/from the Floppy. 


Jerry 


> On May 5, 2017, at 6:16 PM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> After looking at all that...
> 
> The prompt is VMS the $.  The date makes it V3.6 to 4.2.
> I'd still bet that its Files-11 not ODS-II.
> 
> I'd have to check of the DCL prompt under RSX-11 is also $.
> 
> Either way the save command under VMS will have defaults for the device
> target
> and that a lookup on the Orange or Grey wall (manuals).
> 
> Allison
> 
> 
> On 05/05/2017 06:26 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote:
>>> On May 5, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Jerry Weiss <jsw at ieee.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
>>>> Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
>>>> owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
>>>> disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
>>>> certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
>>>> inclined.
>>>> 
>>>>> I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
>>>>> printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
>>>> Here it is:
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg <http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg>
>>>> 
>>>> Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
>>>> Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
>>>> can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
>>>> 
>>>> Terry (Tez)
>>> 
>>> Looks like ODS2.  The files appear to be RUNOFF.   Quick guess is that they
>>> are the appendices to some document or manuscript.
>>> 
>>> 
>> Mr Obvious here (missed the handwritten text in the label at first). 
>> 
>> The .RNO files should contain human readable text.  It no-one has a VAX
>> with an RX02, it should be possible to image the disk from a PDP11 and
>> then mount the image in elsewhere to recover the data.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>>>>>>> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>>>>>> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>>>>>> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
>>>>>> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>>>>> 
>>>>> Allison
>>>>> 
>>> Jerry Weiss
>>> jsw at ieee.org <mailto:jsw at ieee.org>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> Jerry Weiss
>> jsw at ieee.org
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 





From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au  Sat May  6 19:43:00 2017
From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Sun, 07 May 2017 10:43:00 +1000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_?=
 =?utf-8?Q?inch_disks=2E_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?=
In-Reply-To: <CFC2DD49-C87C-4389-8571-39FE3B9979D4@ieee.org>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051154090.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN3PR01MB13022A4A4CFD229295FDAA72EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051235320.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <d46dabd3-6dc0-c02c-0e00-699f7e6db418@gmail.com>
 <CACaZngn6hhZwsDk44Vd+Gj8-=UBdqypaQTs7UcaHq_db+03Piw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5F6D1A17-4451-4EB0-B73A-2D2FD0FC4F5D@ieee.org>
 <18CA69B4-2166-471D-9C56-6096BAB0E61C@ieee.org>
 <9b9c7697-e962-7add-f95f-e952e63589de@gmail.com>
 <CFC2DD49-C87C-4389-8571-39FE3B9979D4@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <C3F4541D-6A4E-46E4-B668-ECAFD494D58D@kerberos.davies.net.au>


> On 7 May 2017, at 06:21, Jerry Weiss via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> I stand corrected.  It appears that the handwritten label has a ODS1 style numerical UIC.
> 
> The printed directory may not actually be from the floppy media itself.  It is
> hierarchical.   So perhaps it is from some ODS2 media that is holding the files 
> that are being transferred to/from the Floppy. 


That?s certainly the way I read it.

The SAVE command most probably is a locally written command or DCL procedure invoked by a symbol that does the magic of copying the files to the floppy.

The OpenVMS EXCHANGE command is the most likely tool used to transfer the data. As it?s name implies, it is designed to move data to and from foreign systems (where foreign in this context is most often a PDP-11 :-))

Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne            | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia            | air, the sky would be painted green" 


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Sat May  6 23:01:25 2017
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 21:01:25 -0700
Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703171313370.14304@freeby.mesanet.com>
References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com>
 <CAALmimk5HTXABnhnfXtPeDAv1Fq8N9_F+58uiLdH=ZVjibKoTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com>
 <BY1PR01MB138555ECEE84F3F3CFDB5C36ED260@BY1PR01MB1385.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703161620280.22105@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <84F420A6-6E77-4A2E-ACF9-107C49CA28CB@me.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703171313370.14304@freeby.mesanet.com>
Message-ID: <7412056A-E59B-41F5-9B4E-721958E830DA@shiresoft.com>

I stopped by and picked up some stuff from Peter today.  There?s a lot of stuff
but I was only prepared to take a few items (I ended up taking a couple of tek
?scopes too).

I didn?t have time to sort through everything that was available but there?s a lot!

He did mention that he has to be out of his space by May 31st and anything that isn?t
picked up will be scrapped.  I did take some pictures that I?ll put up sometime
tomorrow but what Pete has on his list below seems pretty accurate.

Pete is located in Richmond CA.  I can forward his contact information to anyone
that is interested in acquiring some/all of the remaining stuff.

TTFN - Guy

> On Mar 17, 2017, at 1:14 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Richmond CA (Hilltop business park)
> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 17, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> We need to move our business and I have about a ton of
>>> classic cimputer junk in the SFBA that need to go or get scrapped:
>>> 
>>> Many Decstations (3100, 5000/1xx and 5000/240/260s series even a 5100)
>>> many Vaxstations 3100s mostly
>>> Vax 4000 300?
>>> 5" DEC hard drives
>>> Many DEC mice
>>> Small Alphas
>>> Dec/HP  CRT monitors
>>> HP ~1990s Unix workstations and parts
>>> Versatec CE3000 plotter (huge)
>>> test equipment (misc Tek scopes and plugins mainly)
>>> Symbolics 3645? (from Guy Sotomayer a few years back)
>>> HP 2115? mini
>>> PDP 11
>>> Couple 3 KW UPSs with bad batterys
>>> SR22 calculator
>>> Altos 5 15
>>> etc
>>> 
>>> Would really like all to go to someone in the CC community who can take all and sort/distribute themselves rather than cherry pick but that may be optimistic...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Peter Wallace
>>> 
>> 
> 
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
> 
> (\__/)
> (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
> (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun May  7 01:18:34 2017
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 07:18:34 +0100
Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
In-Reply-To: <7412056A-E59B-41F5-9B4E-721958E830DA@shiresoft.com>
References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com>
 <CAALmimk5HTXABnhnfXtPeDAv1Fq8N9_F+58uiLdH=ZVjibKoTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com>
 <BY1PR01MB138555ECEE84F3F3CFDB5C36ED260@BY1PR01MB1385.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703161620280.22105@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <84F420A6-6E77-4A2E-ACF9-107C49CA28CB@me.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703171313370.14304@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <7412056A-E59B-41F5-9B4E-721958E830DA@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <000f01d2c6f9$c27109b0$47531d10$@ntlworld.com>

A pity this is the wrong the side of the pond and shipping is so expensive, otherwise I would love to get a 5000/240 or 5000/260 and some 5" drives.

Regards

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy
> Sotomayor Jr via cctalk
> Sent: 07 May 2017 05:01
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
> 
> I stopped by and picked up some stuff from Peter today.  There?s a lot of stuff
> but I was only prepared to take a few items (I ended up taking a couple of tek
> ?scopes too).
> 
> I didn?t have time to sort through everything that was available but there?s a
> lot!
> 
> He did mention that he has to be out of his space by May 31st and anything that
> isn?t picked up will be scrapped.  I did take some pictures that I?ll put up
> sometime tomorrow but what Pete has on his list below seems pretty accurate.
> 
> Pete is located in Richmond CA.  I can forward his contact information to
> anyone that is interested in acquiring some/all of the remaining stuff.
> 
> TTFN - Guy
> 
> > On Mar 17, 2017, at 1:14 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Richmond CA (Hilltop business park)
> >
> >>
> >>> On Mar 17, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> We need to move our business and I have about a ton of classic
> >>> cimputer junk in the SFBA that need to go or get scrapped:
> >>>
> >>> Many Decstations (3100, 5000/1xx and 5000/240/260s series even a
> >>> 5100) many Vaxstations 3100s mostly Vax 4000 300?
> >>> 5" DEC hard drives
> >>> Many DEC mice
> >>> Small Alphas
> >>> Dec/HP  CRT monitors
> >>> HP ~1990s Unix workstations and parts Versatec CE3000 plotter (huge)
> >>> test equipment (misc Tek scopes and plugins mainly) Symbolics 3645?
> >>> (from Guy Sotomayer a few years back) HP 2115? mini PDP 11 Couple 3
> >>> KW UPSs with bad batterys
> >>> SR22 calculator
> >>> Altos 5 15
> >>> etc
> >>>
> >>> Would really like all to go to someone in the CC community who can take
> all and sort/distribute themselves rather than cherry pick but that may be
> optimistic...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Peter Wallace
> >>>
> >>
> >
> > Peter Wallace
> > Mesa Electronics
> >
> > (\__/)
> > (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
> > (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.


From binarydinosaurs at icloud.com  Sun May  7 04:43:38 2017
From: binarydinosaurs at icloud.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sun, 07 May 2017 10:43:38 +0100
Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
In-Reply-To: <000f01d2c6f9$c27109b0$47531d10$@ntlworld.com>
References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com>
 <CAALmimk5HTXABnhnfXtPeDAv1Fq8N9_F+58uiLdH=ZVjibKoTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com>
 <BY1PR01MB138555ECEE84F3F3CFDB5C36ED260@BY1PR01MB1385.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703161620280.22105@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <84F420A6-6E77-4A2E-ACF9-107C49CA28CB@me.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703171313370.14304@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <7412056A-E59B-41F5-9B4E-721958E830DA@shiresoft.com>
 <000f01d2c6f9$c27109b0$47531d10$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <C50819FF-532C-4235-AFAE-3D60C3B862F3@icloud.com>


> On 7 May 2017, at 07:18, Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> A pity this is the wrong the side of the pond and shipping is so expensive, otherwise I would love to get a 5000/240 or 5000/260 and some 5" drives.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob
> 

Hi Rob,

I?ve been told about reship.com who I guess are like a US equivalent of parcel2go over here. You pay domestic US shipping to them and they add a surcharge to forward it over to you, presumably by boat. What I don?t know is how that affects import duty etc but it might be worth looking into.

A

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy
>> Sotomayor Jr via cctalk
>> Sent: 07 May 2017 05:01
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Re: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
>> 
>> I stopped by and picked up some stuff from Peter today.  There?s a lot of stuff
>> but I was only prepared to take a few items (I ended up taking a couple of tek
>> ?scopes too).
>> 
>> I didn?t have time to sort through everything that was available but there?s a
>> lot!
>> 
>> He did mention that he has to be out of his space by May 31st and anything that
>> isn?t picked up will be scrapped.  I did take some pictures that I?ll put up
>> sometime tomorrow but what Pete has on his list below seems pretty accurate.
>> 
>> Pete is located in Richmond CA.  I can forward his contact information to
>> anyone that is interested in acquiring some/all of the remaining stuff.
>> 
>> TTFN - Guy
>> 
>>> On Mar 17, 2017, at 1:14 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Richmond CA (Hilltop business park)
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 17, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> We need to move our business and I have about a ton of classic
>>>>> cimputer junk in the SFBA that need to go or get scrapped:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Many Decstations (3100, 5000/1xx and 5000/240/260s series even a
>>>>> 5100) many Vaxstations 3100s mostly Vax 4000 300?
>>>>> 5" DEC hard drives
>>>>> Many DEC mice
>>>>> Small Alphas
>>>>> Dec/HP  CRT monitors
>>>>> HP ~1990s Unix workstations and parts Versatec CE3000 plotter (huge)
>>>>> test equipment (misc Tek scopes and plugins mainly) Symbolics 3645?
>>>>> (from Guy Sotomayer a few years back) HP 2115? mini PDP 11 Couple 3
>>>>> KW UPSs with bad batterys
>>>>> SR22 calculator
>>>>> Altos 5 15
>>>>> etc
>>>>> 
>>>>> Would really like all to go to someone in the CC community who can take
>> all and sort/distribute themselves rather than cherry pick but that may be
>> optimistic...
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Peter Wallace
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Peter Wallace
>>> Mesa Electronics
>>> 
>>> (\__/)
>>> (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
>>> (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
> 


From useddec at gmail.com  Sun May  7 04:59:03 2017
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 04:59:03 -0500
Subject: rainbow parts
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMf1SvSuj1frdV2Z70zFq4aXq=1Ktn2uaiwzXj=N_0R=Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Steven,

Did you see my post on Rainbow parts?

Paul

From asc135 at gmail.com  Sun May  7 12:01:08 2017
From: asc135 at gmail.com (Amardeep S Chana)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 13:01:08 -0400
Subject: Vintage computers for sale
Message-ID: <CA+6vsPq9gV_A0ZwaLmZ2Y1gtfQ+t96+PGrUUC8FuqdDrgDf1rg@mail.gmail.com>

A friend of mine was asking if anyone wanted an old CoCo 1 or 2, Apple IIc,
TI 99/4A and one or two other machines he was looking to rehome.  I
realized I had several vintage machines that I'd like to rehome myself.  We
were discussing the possibility of collaborating on a vintage swap sale of
some sort.  Then he went ahead and created a facebook group to post
pictures, etc. where he has some of his equipment listed.

So I have a couple of questions...

Is there already a well known online swap meet for vintage computer gear?
(i.e. NOT eBay!)  I'd rather not duplicate the effort and fragment the
market further.

If there isn't, I'll be putting up a few machines on my friend's facebook
group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/448700415476109/ .  I have a few
TRS-80 Model 4's, a couple of Model I's, a couple of Model II's, a Cromemco
Z-2D (with OEM labels on the face) which used to be a weather graphics
computer), a couple of Columbia M64 Shoebox CP/M computers, and a few Coco
2's.

The bulk of the people on the facebook swap group (including myself) are
located in Central Indiana.

I'll share the available computer details here on the list after I've done
the writeups and taken pictures.

Thanks and have a great day!

Amardeep (a/k/a Marty, AC9MF)

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sun May  7 12:03:27 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 17:03:27 +0000
Subject: AT&T UnixPC
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB13029F314DAF813B7B46B073EDE90@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


We have any people here with an interest in the UnixPC?
I have one left here that I probably need to part with.  It's
a little dirty having spent 20-some years in an attic but I just
powered it up and it works other than the hard disk.  It's
got 1Meg on the motherboard and no external cards.  It
boots diagnostics from the floppy but won't boot from the
hard disk and when I run diagnostics it gets read errors.
I guess that means it might be good and just require a
re-initialization and reload of the software.

It's way to much for me to try to ship so it would need to
be someone either near Scranton, PA or who might be
travelling this way at some point this summer (but not the
end of May/beginning of June as I will be in Alaska then.)
It can be had for a couple cases of beer.  :-)

I also think I have a set of both 2.0 and 3.? floppies which
would make reloading it easier.

bill




From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun May  7 12:21:17 2017
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 18:21:17 +0100
Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
In-Reply-To: <C50819FF-532C-4235-AFAE-3D60C3B862F3@icloud.com>
References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com>
 <CAALmimk5HTXABnhnfXtPeDAv1Fq8N9_F+58uiLdH=ZVjibKoTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com>
 <BY1PR01MB138555ECEE84F3F3CFDB5C36ED260@BY1PR01MB1385.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703161620280.22105@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <84F420A6-6E77-4A2E-ACF9-107C49CA28CB@me.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703171313370.14304@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <7412056A-E59B-41F5-9B4E-721958E830DA@shiresoft.com>
 <000f01d2c6f9$c27109b0$47531d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <C50819FF-532C-4235-AFAE-3D60C3B862F3@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <002c01d2c756$5682e720$0388b560$@ntlworld.com>

> I?ve been told about reship.com who I guess are like a US equivalent of
> parcel2go over here. You pay domestic US shipping to them and they add a
> surcharge to forward it over to you, presumably by boat. What I don?t know is
> how that affects import duty etc but it might be worth looking into.
> 
> A
> 

Interesting. I just checked the site. It looks to be mostly about giving you a US mailing address, but then it just ships to you using a normal carrier such as USPS, UPS, Fedex etc., so it doesn't seem likely that it would be a cheaper way, or am I missing something?

Regards

Rob


From couryhouse at aol.com  Sun May  7 12:27:46 2017
From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 13:27:46 -0400
Subject: Vintage computers for sale
In-Reply-To: <CA+6vsPq9gV_A0ZwaLmZ2Y1gtfQ+t96+PGrUUC8FuqdDrgDf1rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6vsPq9gV_A0ZwaLmZ2Y1gtfQ+t96+PGrUUC8FuqdDrgDf1rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15be3f3f083-9d6-21aa7@webprd-a52.mail.aol.com>

Nice idea! A good graphical format that we can use to show off what we wish to trade off.

There is something nice about seeing photographs spread out across the page.

 Besides this is an area where you may attract some people that are other list may not have found that have an interest in these classic computers.

Ed#

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 Amardeep S Chana via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
A friend of mine was asking if anyone wanted an old CoCo 1 or 2, Apple IIc,
TI 99/4A and one or two other machines he was looking to rehome. I
realized I had several vintage machines that I'd like to rehome myself. We
were discussing the possibility of collaborating on a vintage swap sale of
some sort. Then he went ahead and created a facebook group to post
pictures, etc. where he has some of his equipment listed.

So I have a couple of questions...

Is there already a well known online swap meet for vintage computer gear?
(i.e. NOT eBay!) I'd rather not duplicate the effort and fragment the
market further.

If there isn't, I'll be putting up a few machines on my friend's facebook
group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/448700415476109/ . I have a few
TRS-80 Model 4's, a couple of Model I's, a couple of Model II's, a Cromemco
Z-2D (with OEM labels on the face) which used to be a weather graphics
computer), a couple of Columbia M64 Shoebox CP/M computers, and a few Coco
2's.

The bulk of the people on the facebook swap group (including myself) are
located in Central Indiana.

I'll share the available computer details here on the list after I've done
the writeups and taken pictures.

Thanks and have a great day!

Amardeep (a/k/a Marty, AC9MF)

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sun May  7 12:32:41 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 17:32:41 +0000
Subject: Holmes Engineering DX-3D
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB13020ADBD31B6CCB60A86295EDE90@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


Hey TRS-80 fanatics....

Anybody have any info on this controller?  I have one but the controller chip is
missing.  And, I don't really know if it would work if it had one.  But, if I could
find out what the chip was and get one it seems this supported 8" drives as
well as the usual 5.25".  A user manual would be helpful, too.  :-)

bill

From alan at alanlee.org  Sun May  7 14:21:10 2017
From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower)
Date: Sun, 07 May 2017 15:21:10 -0400
Subject: VCF-SE 5.0 Videos Uploaded
Message-ID: <47dbbef88f93c532a680e531d1684f37@alanlee.org>

 

[cross posted] 

I was able to find time to edit and post speaker videos from this year's
Vintage Computer Festival Southeast held last weekend in Atlanta.
Amazingly I did it within one week and not a year or more! 

Here is the speaker summary and bios from the VCFed website:
http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/otherevents/vintage-computer-festival-southeast/vcf-se-5-speakers/
[1] 

And you can find the videos on the AHCS Vimeo channel:
https://vimeo.com/user50868990 [2] 

Don French discusses the genesis of the TRS-80 Model I at Tandy/Radio
Shack:
https://vimeo.com/216109117 [3] 

Andy Hertzfeld from Apple talks Apple II and his journey to Cupertino:
https://vimeo.com/216104204 [4] 

Zach Weddington hosts a special screening of his Viva Amiga documentary
film followed by a panel discussion moderated by Adam Spring:
https://vimeo.com/216081365 [5] 

Chuck Peddle via Skype discusses the history of the personal computer
and his current projects:
https://vimeo.com/216072422 [6] 

I've also continued to work on the 4.0 backlog. I've added David
Larsen's discussion on the Bug Book series and his computer museum here:
https://vimeo.com/216398748 [7] 

And as-posted from last year, Bil Herd discusses his early Commodore
days:
https://vimeo.com/161861581 [8] 

I still have Ray Holt, Jerry Mannock, Mary Hopper, and podcast videos
from 4.0 in my work queue. 3.0, 2.0 and 1.0 to come (Jason Scott, Robert
Uiterwyk, Jonathan Zufi, Carl Helmers, Robert Tinney, Dick Huston, Dan
Kottke, and others). But no ETA on finishing as of yet, sorry. 

There are some flaws in video (Andy's lectern mic - doh!) and audio
(damn kids!), but they turned out ok. They are all open to free
download. But please give proper attribution when sharing. 

On behalf of the entire Atlanta Historical Computing Society who work
hard every year to make this happen, thanks and enjoy! We do this stuff
for you guys! 

Alan Hightower - President 

Links:
------
[1]
http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/otherevents/vintage-computer-festival-southeast/vcf-se-5-speakers/
[2] https://vimeo.com/user50868990
[3] https://vimeo.com/216109117
[4] https://vimeo.com/216104204
[5] https://vimeo.com/216081365
[6] https://vimeo.com/216072422
[7] https://vimeo.com/216398748
[8] https://vimeo.com/161861581

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sun May  7 15:14:39 2017
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 21:14:39 +0100
Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
In-Reply-To: <002c01d2c756$5682e720$0388b560$@ntlworld.com>
References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com>
 <CAALmimk5HTXABnhnfXtPeDAv1Fq8N9_F+58uiLdH=ZVjibKoTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com>
 <BY1PR01MB138555ECEE84F3F3CFDB5C36ED260@BY1PR01MB1385.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703161620280.22105@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <84F420A6-6E77-4A2E-ACF9-107C49CA28CB@me.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703171313370.14304@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <7412056A-E59B-41F5-9B4E-721958E830DA@shiresoft.com>
 <000f01d2c6f9$c27109b0$47531d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <C50819FF-532C-4235-AFAE-3D60C3B862F3@icloud.com>
 <002c01d2c756$5682e720$0388b560$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <00bf01d2c76e$8fac7620$af056260$@outlook.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt
> via cctalk
> Sent: 07 May 2017 18:21
> To: 'Adrian Graham' <binarydinosaurs at icloud.com>; 'General Discussion: On-
> Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: RE: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
> 
> > I?ve been told about reship.com who I guess are like a US equivalent
> > of parcel2go over here. You pay domestic US shipping to them and they
> > add a surcharge to forward it over to you, presumably by boat. What I
> > don?t know is how that affects import duty etc but it might be worth
> looking into.
> >
> > A
> >
> 
> Interesting. I just checked the site. It looks to be mostly about giving you a US
> mailing address, but then it just ships to you using a normal carrier such as
> USPS, UPS, Fedex etc., so it doesn't seem likely that it would be a cheaper
> way, or am I missing something?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob

I think its more about being able to ship things were the vendor doesn't ship to the UK, or where you want to consolidate multiple shipments.

Dave


From steven at malikoff.com  Sun May  7 17:36:06 2017
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 08:36:06 +1000
Subject: Vintage computers for sale
In-Reply-To: <CA+6vsPq9gV_A0ZwaLmZ2Y1gtfQ+t96+PGrUUC8FuqdDrgDf1rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6vsPq9gV_A0ZwaLmZ2Y1gtfQ+t96+PGrUUC8FuqdDrgDf1rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8ac45537bd299986e853b5d445e8f12d.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Amardeep said
> A friend of mine was asking if anyone wanted an old CoCo 1 or 2, Apple IIc,
> TI 99/4A and one or two other machines he was looking to rehome.  I
> realized I had several vintage machines that I'd like to rehome myself.  We
> were discussing the possibility of collaborating on a vintage swap sale of
> some sort.  Then he went ahead and created a facebook group to post
> pictures, etc. where he has some of his equipment listed.
>
> So I have a couple of questions...
>
> Is there already a well known online swap meet for vintage computer gear?
> (i.e. NOT eBay!)  I'd rather not duplicate the effort and fragment the
> market further.
>
> If there isn't, I'll be putting up a few machines on my friend's facebook
> group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/448700415476109/ .  I have a few
> TRS-80 Model 4's, a couple of Model I's, a couple of Model II's, a Cromemco
> Z-2D (with OEM labels on the face) which used to be a weather graphics
> computer), a couple of Columbia M64 Shoebox CP/M computers, and a few Coco
> 2's.
>
> The bulk of the people on the facebook swap group (including myself) are
> located in Central Indiana.
>
> I'll share the available computer details here on the list after I've done
> the writeups and taken pictures.
>
> Thanks and have a great day!
>
> Amardeep (a/k/a Marty, AC9MF)

There sure is. For those not on twitbook why not try the Vintage Computer Federation forums where
you get everything in one place - Buy/Swap/Sell, Auction announcements, and a great community in
the Discussion forums where there is both General and machine-specific lists. And of course photos
can be attached too.
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum.php

There's also the reddit forum https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/

Steve.


From steven at malikoff.com  Sun May  7 18:04:41 2017
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 09:04:41 +1000
Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
In-Reply-To: <00bf01d2c76e$8fac7620$af056260$@outlook.com>
References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com>
 <CAALmimk5HTXABnhnfXtPeDAv1Fq8N9_F+58uiLdH=ZVjibKoTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com>
 <BY1PR01MB138555ECEE84F3F3CFDB5C36ED260@BY1PR01MB1385.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703161620280.22105@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <84F420A6-6E77-4A2E-ACF9-107C49CA28CB@me.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703171313370.14304@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <7412056A-E59B-41F5-9B4E-721958E830DA@shiresoft.com>
 <000f01d2c6f9$c27109b0$47531d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <C50819FF-532C-4235-AFAE-3D60C3B862F3@icloud.com>
 <002c01d2c756$5682e720$0388b560$@ntlworld.com>
 <00bf01d2c76e$8fac7620$af056260$@outlook.com>
Message-ID: <2197fcb9e8aeb34cf1c404cbb918b163.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Dave said:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt
>> via cctalk
>> Sent: 07 May 2017 18:21
>> To: 'Adrian Graham' <binarydinosaurs at icloud.com>; 'General Discussion: On-
>> Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: RE: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
>>
>> > I?ve been told about reship.com who I guess are like a US equivalent
>> > of parcel2go over here. You pay domestic US shipping to them and they
>> > add a surcharge to forward it over to you, presumably by boat. What I
>> > don?t know is how that affects import duty etc but it might be worth
>> looking into.
>> >
>> > A
>> >
>>
>> Interesting. I just checked the site. It looks to be mostly about giving you a US
>> mailing address, but then it just ships to you using a normal carrier such as
>> USPS, UPS, Fedex etc., so it doesn't seem likely that it would be a cheaper
>> way, or am I missing something?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Rob
>
> I think its more about being able to ship things were the vendor doesn't ship to the UK, or where you want to consolidate multiple shipments.
>
> Dave

Here's my experience with US re-shipping agents. Their charges vary in skewed ways not
always easy to guage. With the one I decided to use, I've had a 1 ounce packet of LEGO
bricks reposted at an outrageous cost of $40+ USD to Australia. On the other hand, they
shipped my mainframe console from NJ to Oz at an entirely reasonable rate, and looked
after it pretty well. If you have to use them make sure the seller attaches copies of the
invoice or eBay sale page etc. to the inside and outside and also posts a signed or
initialled one to you seperately as it really helps with customs.

In summary they are a lifesaver if the seller has pulled up the drawbridge (as some of
them have) to get an item shipped internationally. There are a lot of them to choose from
and to be honest I just went with the one that looked to have the friendliest website and
offered some extra services (repack item, photos of received item, amalgamation of
shipments etc.) but you could certainly do some comparisons on their re-postage rates.

Steve.


From pete at pski.net  Sun May  7 19:27:18 2017
From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 20:27:18 -0400
Subject: Holmes Engineering DX-3D
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB13020ADBD31B6CCB60A86295EDE90@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <BN3PR01MB13020ADBD31B6CCB60A86295EDE90@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <3420C2F2-8E85-4F2A-891E-208B98464C09@pski.net>


> On May 7, 2017, at 1:32 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hey TRS-80 fanatics....
> 
> Anybody have any info on this controller?  I have one but the controller chip is
> missing.  And, I don't really know if it would work if it had one.  But, if I could
> find out what the chip was and get one it seems this supported 8" drives as
> well as the usual 5.25".  A user manual would be helpful, too.  :-)
> 
> bill

There?s a picture of it in Basic Computing Magazine Vol 6 No 7 Page 126 but I can?t make out the lettering on the controller chip.


From asc135 at gmail.com  Sun May  7 20:24:14 2017
From: asc135 at gmail.com (Amardeep S Chana)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 21:24:14 -0400
Subject: Vintage computers for sale
In-Reply-To: <8ac45537bd299986e853b5d445e8f12d.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <CA+6vsPq9gV_A0ZwaLmZ2Y1gtfQ+t96+PGrUUC8FuqdDrgDf1rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8ac45537bd299986e853b5d445e8f12d.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <CA+6vsPqx+Z1TspDVvZyi_GMv513UwKnPpoDf_z6TrCL=YCUndA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 6:36 PM, <steven at malikoff.com> wrote:

> Amardeep said
> >
> > Is there already a well known online swap meet for vintage computer gear?
> > (i.e. NOT eBay!)  I'd rather not duplicate the effort and fragment the
> > market further.
> >
>
> There sure is. For those not on twitbook why not try the Vintage Computer
> Federation forums where
> you get everything in one place - Buy/Swap/Sell, Auction announcements,
> and a great community in
> the Discussion forums where there is both General and machine-specific
> lists. And of course photos
> can be attached too.
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum.php
>
> There's also the reddit forum https://www.reddit.com/r/
> retrobattlestations/
>
> Steve.
>
>
Thank you, Steve.  That's just what I was hoping for.

Amardeep

From binarydinosaurs at icloud.com  Sun May  7 13:05:34 2017
From: binarydinosaurs at icloud.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sun, 07 May 2017 19:05:34 +0100
Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
In-Reply-To: <002c01d2c756$5682e720$0388b560$@ntlworld.com>
References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com>
 <CAALmimk5HTXABnhnfXtPeDAv1Fq8N9_F+58uiLdH=ZVjibKoTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com>
 <BY1PR01MB138555ECEE84F3F3CFDB5C36ED260@BY1PR01MB1385.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703161620280.22105@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <84F420A6-6E77-4A2E-ACF9-107C49CA28CB@me.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703171313370.14304@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <7412056A-E59B-41F5-9B4E-721958E830DA@shiresoft.com>
 <000f01d2c6f9$c27109b0$47531d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <C50819FF-532C-4235-AFAE-3D60C3B862F3@icloud.com>
 <002c01d2c756$5682e720$0388b560$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <D8684571-118C-4132-98B5-DD64BBE5B988@icloud.com>


> On 7 May 2017, at 18:21, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> 
>> I?ve been told about reship.com who I guess are like a US equivalent of
>> parcel2go over here. You pay domestic US shipping to them and they add a
>> surcharge to forward it over to you, presumably by boat. What I don?t know is
>> how that affects import duty etc but it might be worth looking into.
>> 
>> A
>> 
> 
> Interesting. I just checked the site. It looks to be mostly about giving you a US mailing address, but then it just ships to you using a normal carrier such as USPS, UPS, Fedex etc., so it doesn't seem likely that it would be a cheaper way, or am I missing something?
> 

This is the reason I mentioned parcel2go - they send thousands of parcels daily so can negotiate a cheaper rate for shipping with the same companies thee and me use. I assume ReShip do the same thing.

Cheers

A


From jfehlinger at comcast.net  Sun May  7 17:03:37 2017
From: jfehlinger at comcast.net (JAMES FEHLINGER)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 18:03:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SimH IBM1130 GUI appears "fixed"
In-Reply-To: <1782826672.99027.1493953560090@connect.xfinity.com>
References: <251386307.46740.1493829684195@connect.xfinity.com>
 <884184385.69054.1493868690145@connect.xfinity.com>
 <1412510642.55078.1493908427115@connect.xfinity.com>
 <1782826672.99027.1493953560090@connect.xfinity.com>
Message-ID: <1850055263.146096.1494194618135@connect.xfinity.com>

This is an update on my attempt to run, on the SimH 1130,
the "Lunar Landing" program featured in one of Carl Claunch's
YouTube videos of his real 1131 CPU (connected to his PC-simulated
2310 disk drive, PC-simulated 1442 reader/punch, and a
real 1132 printer):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JduYwduvGbo

Claunch doesn't go through the complete game-play cycle
in this video, he only shows the computer reading the
card deck (lunarlanding.bin) and flashing its lights during
the (two) compiles and (three) binary loads to disk --
first a short subroutine (a stub, actually - LTPLT)
compiled and loaded to disk, then a subroutine
object binary (ORBIT) loaded to disk, then the
main program (LUNAR) compiled, loaded to disk,
and executed.  The video ends when the 1131 console Selectric
starts printing out the initial text.  You can't really see that
text in the video, but here it is:




   THIS GAME SIMULATES THE BEHAVIOR OF A SPACESHIP AS IT IS FIRED OUT OF A  100.0 MILE HIGH PARKING ORBIT ON A
TRAJECTORY TOWARD THE MOON.  AT MISSION CONTROL YOU MUST CHOOSE THE INSERTION ANGLE AND VELOCITY TO LEAVE EARTH ORBIT.
THE ANGLE IS MEASURED COUNTER-CLOCKWISE FROM THE LINE BETWEEN EARTH AND THE MOON.  THE VELOCITY IS IN MILES PER HOUR.


   DATA SWITCHES 1-6 SERVE THE FOLLOWING PURPOSES--
   1 = TRACE EVERY TENTH ITERATION.
   2 = ENTER MID-COURSE VELOCITY CORRECTION.
   3 = ABORT FLIGHT. READ NEW PARAMETERS.
   4 = SKIP TO PLOT OPTION.
   5 = REJECT PLOT.
   6 = EXIT.


   THE PROGRAM WILL PAUSE WITH 2222 DISPLAYED WHEN THE 'X' COMPONENT OF
VELOCITY APPROACHES ZERO.  MID-COURSE VELOCITY CORRECTIONS MAY BE DESIRED AT THESE POINTS.


   USE 8 LINES PER INCH PAGE SPACING AND AN 88 LINE CARRIAGE CONTROL TAPE.

ENTER ANGLE



(For what it's worth, he seems to have console switch 13 in the "up"
position in the video; this would seem to correspond to a value of
4 in the above list -- at any rate, a "deposit ces 4" command to SimH
flips up switch 13 in the simulator GUI.  But none of these switches actually
seemed to change anything about the execution of the program,
as far as I could tell.)

So Claunch, in a message on the IBM1130 Google forum:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/ibm1130/BYDqS8bQkTs/q2E3epE4xzoJ
gave a link to download the deck he's using in the video, which
is still valid:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/88601644/lunarlanding.bin

He mentions that the deck is in 1130-simulator binary format.
I was able to use the "viewdeck.exe" utility from ibm1130.org to
see the parts of this deck that originated in human-readable 029
format, and since the file is 160-character fixed-length records,
it's possible to use (Cygwin) 'dd' to split lunarlanding.bin into
three files. The first and last can be turned into ASCII
with viewdeck.exe while the the middle one must remain binary.
Each one loads its contents to disk, so once the whole suite has
run once in order, you can run the jobs separately or in any sequence
(if you want to recompile and/or reload one or more pieces), or you
can run the program, without any recompilation, from disk using a single card:
// XEQ LUNAR
[Note: If you split up lunarlanding.bin like this, the binary
job that does the replacement of ORBIT needs an extra (binary)
//DUP directive inserted as its first record in order to be
completely standalone.  This can also be accomplished with 'dd' and 'cat'.]

The expected cycle of game play seems to be that when you get the above
introductory message on the Selectric console, you type a number
in response to "ENTER ANGLE" (following by a return) at which point
the program responds with a second prompt "ENTER VELOCITY".
You type another number and return, at which point the response is:

PLOT DIAGRAM IS READY.

At this point, the 1130 goes into a Wait, and SimH drops you back into
the command prompt.

This "plot diagram" referred to is on the line printer, so you tear off
the printer paper and you see, (following the boot message from DMS
and any other messages from compilation and/or loading of the program pieces,
and a few skipped lines after the final echoed "// XEQ LUNAR", the heading:

  HOUR MIN 'X' COoRD. 'Y' COORD. 'X' VELOC. 'Y' VELOC. ABS VELOC. DIST TO E. DIST TO M.

In the normal case there would presumably also be actual numbers on
the next line.

Going back to the console and typing "cont" or "go" (or pressing the
Program Start button on the GUI or on a real 1130), the program
continues (don't forget to reattach the printer if you're operating
the simulator manually) with another succession of prompts on
the console: ENTER ANGLE (you enter a number, <return>) followed
by ENTER VELOCITY (you enter a second number, <return>).
Again, PLOT DIAGRAM IS READY. following by a Wait.

If you examine the lineprinter output, this time you see a graphic,
with representations for the earth and the moon, together with the
trajectory of the spacecraft travelling from the former to the latter.
This is preceded by the text:

 TRANSLUNAR TRAJECTORY   == INCREMENTAL VELOCITY=<number>.   INJECTION ANGLE=<number>

SCALE = 10,000 MILES/INCH, THE SCALE IS BROKEN AT 60,000 MILES AND RESUMES AT 221,000 MILES

Again, this is followed by numerical data labelled with the headings
"HOUR MIN 'X' COORD. ..." etc.

Then it's back to the console, and the cycle repeats.  Presumably this back-and-forth
goes on until you reach the moon (or crash into it or miss it).

So here's what I've discovered so far about running this program under SimH:

1. You **must** use an 1132-configured DMS disk.  While it's possible to edit the
human-readable portion to change the IOCS directive ahead of the main program
from "1132PRINTER" to "1403PRINTER", it appears that the main program is only
doing the console I/O.  All of the lineprinter output seems to come from
the ORBIT subprogram, which is only available as object code, and is presumably
using 1132-specific logical unit numbers.  In any case, if you try using a
1403-configured DMS boot disk, after its first attempt to write to the lineprinter
the program goes haywire and becomes unresponsive.

2.  You'd probably also better use the latest DMS disk from ibm1130.org,
which seems to be dated 11/26/2012.  The "Reference Guide" says that up until
10/24/2012, Fortran extended-precision SQRT was defective because of a
bug in the cross-assembler used to build DMS.  The ORBIT program uses extended-precision
arithmetic.

3. Nevertheless, despite using the latest DMS from ibm1130.org (built for the
1132 printer and with the fixed SQRT), I can't get sensible output from ORBIT.
I suppose it's possible that I'm not using numbers in the expected range
for the program (but I've used lots of angles from 0 through 270, and velocities
between 5000 and 100000 mph).  In all cases, there are never any numbers shown
underneath the "HOUR MIN 'X'  COORD. 'Y' COORD. ..." heading on the lineprinter
output; the heading of the trajectory graphic always looks something like
 TRANSLUNAR TRAJECTORY   -- INCREMENTAL VELOCITY=100000000.   INJECTION ANGLE=***********
and the graphic itself, instead of showing a path from the earth to the moon,
shows a vertical column of forward slashes (it's always vertical) much longer
than the indicated distance between the graphics of the earth and moon (but
the column of slashes is indeed broken at one point).

This is, of course, a heavy-duty numerical program, and I fear this output means
that there are still other bugs in the 1130 simulator's extended-precision arithmetic
(or indeed, in the cross-assembled versions of one or more of the other
Fortran extended-precision system subroutines).

4. Finally, something that was driving me crazy until I saw the pattern.
There's an interaction between the GUI and getting console input (such as when
you provide the numbers you're prompted for in the Lunar program).

This has nothing to do with Lunar Landing itself; I was able to reproduce the
problem with a simple Fortran program:


// JOB
// FOR
*ONE WORD INTEGERS
*LIST ALL
*IOCS(KEYBOARD,TYPEWRITER)
**WRITE TO AND READ FROM THE 1131 CONSOLE
C
C THIS IS A TEST OF CONSOLE I/O VIA A FORTRAN PROGRAM.
C ---------------------------------------------------------------------
C
         INTEGER LINE(40)
         WRITE(1,5)
    5 FORMAT('SAY SOMETHING FUNNY')
         READ(6,6) (LINE(I),I=1,40)
    6 FORMAT(40A2)
         WRITE(1,9)
         WRITE(1,7) (LINE(I),I=1,40)
    7 FORMAT(11HYOU SAID - ,40A2)
         WRITE(1,8)
    8 FORMAT('THAT WAS FUNNY')
         WRITE(1,9)
    9 FORMAT('')
      CALL EXIT
      END
// XEQ


What happens is (and this **only** happens when the GUI is on, if
you "set gui off" in the initial SimH command file and operate the
simulator manually, the problem goes away), when you answer a prompt
on the console by typing characters, nothing is seen by the program until you
**first** hit a carriage return.  Then the 1130 starts seeing what
you're typing.  And interestingly, any keystrokes you typed before that
first carriage return are saved somewhere until control is returned to the
SimH command processor (when the 1130 enters a Wait), and then
they're seen by SimH itself, which responds "Unknown command".

I might poke around some more to see if I can guess what might
be causing the problem with console I/O when the GUI is on, but
I've pretty much given up at this point being able to do anything
useful with Lunar Landing.  Oh, well.

From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com  Sun May  7 14:33:30 2017
From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 15:33:30 -0400
Subject: salling E series ibm as/400
Message-ID: <CAOpB=UNKxaFLY4EpaELy9oSMXKGM5tUr3in_U=pwYvVJ8Z=KVQ@mail.gmail.com>

I picked up an e series ibm as 400 a while back. it boots/ipl's a working
licenced install of os/400. I have a single terminal and misc related
cables. everything needed is there.

I am open to offers on the machine. Just looking to break even, not make a
fortune.

--Devin

From useddec at gmail.com  Mon May  8 04:33:23 2017
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 04:33:23 -0500
Subject: DEC Unibus backplanes
Message-ID: <CACwhfuP4y_-U_Mye3fb1+kvTTBDGtA6v4AGYv4gGZNH3jYw-8w@mail.gmail.com>

I have the following backplanes for sale. Some have boards in them, some
don't, but I might have the boards.

Please call me with any questions or offers. Shipping from 61853.

DD11-DK
DDV11-DK
MF11-U/UP
RH11
RK611
11/44
11/84

Thanks, Paul

From useddec at gmail.com  Mon May  8 04:40:19 2017
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 04:40:19 -0500
Subject: DEC Unibus backplanes
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuP4y_-U_Mye3fb1+kvTTBDGtA6v4AGYv4gGZNH3jYw-8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuP4y_-U_Mye3fb1+kvTTBDGtA6v4AGYv4gGZNH3jYw-8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMX6_kMoBVMm35LDpyD0ii1mAfnjxs9WQ-J+NJTwAXi7A@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, forgot DR11-B.

On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:33 AM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have the following backplanes for sale. Some have boards in them, some
> don't, but I might have the boards.
>
> Please call me with any questions or offers. Shipping from 61853.
>
> DD11-DK
> DDV11-DK
> MF11-U/UP
> RH11
> RK611
> 11/44
> 11/84
>
> Thanks, Paul
>
>

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon May  8 02:40:15 2017
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 08:40:15 +0100
Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
In-Reply-To: <D8684571-118C-4132-98B5-DD64BBE5B988@icloud.com>
References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com>
 <CAALmimk5HTXABnhnfXtPeDAv1Fq8N9_F+58uiLdH=ZVjibKoTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com>
 <BY1PR01MB138555ECEE84F3F3CFDB5C36ED260@BY1PR01MB1385.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703161620280.22105@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <84F420A6-6E77-4A2E-ACF9-107C49CA28CB@me.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703171313370.14304@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <7412056A-E59B-41F5-9B4E-721958E830DA@shiresoft.com>
 <000f01d2c6f9$c27109b0$47531d10$@ntlworld.com>
 <C50819FF-532C-4235-AFAE-3D60C3B862F3@icloud.com>
 <002c01d2c756$5682e720$0388b560$@ntlworld.com>
 <D8684571-118C-4132-98B5-DD64BBE5B988@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <20170508074017.9BD7D4E6A7@mx2.ezwind.net>

Ah I see. I will have to look further into this.

Sent from my Windows 10 phone

From: Adrian Graham via cctalk
Sent: 08 May 2017 05:47
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware


> On 7 May 2017, at 18:21, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> 
>> I?ve been told about reship.com who I guess are like a US equivalent of
>> parcel2go over here. You pay domestic US shipping to them and they add a
>> surcharge to forward it over to you, presumably by boat. What I don?t know is
>> how that affects import duty etc but it might be worth looking into.
>> 
>> A
>> 
> 
> Interesting. I just checked the site. It looks to be mostly about giving you a US mailing address, but then it just ships to you using a normal carrier such as USPS, UPS, Fedex etc., so it doesn't seem likely that it would be a cheaper way, or am I missing something?
> 

This is the reason I mentioned parcel2go - they send thousands of parcels daily so can negotiate a cheaper rate for shipping with the same companies thee and me use. I assume ReShip do the same thing.

Cheers

A



From alan at alanlee.org  Mon May  8 12:07:29 2017
From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower)
Date: Mon, 08 May 2017 13:07:29 -0400
Subject: AT&T 3B2 list
In-Reply-To: <b72ef9965c75363e6e76cf6ea64bb2bf@alanlee.org>
References: <20170502064954.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.1bac6b914f.wbe@email15.godaddy.com>
 <1493753523.2947049.963513184.534E35ED@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <f6227e74-9017-fc45-f32d-ea7f64610ab0@oryx.us>
 <20170505205053.GA18189@loomcom.com>
 <b72ef9965c75363e6e76cf6ea64bb2bf@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <7682790a45b9e0120ecadaa664936d66@alanlee.org>

 

A few people on the Sun help rescue list raised interest for AT&T 3B2
community projects. So I've created a mailing list to help segregate
traffic for detail oriented 3B2 related topics. 

Seth Morabito has invested lots of effort into adding WE3K chip set and
machine emulation to SIMH. I'm interested in building some new CIO
boards for the machines. I would also like to eventually mirror all 3B2
related information to 3b2archive.org. And other contributors and
lurkers are signing up too. Please see details in the quoted message
below. 

Thanks, 

-Alan 

On 2017-05-08 11:17, Alan Hightower wrote: 

> I've created a mailman list 3b2info at retrotronics.org with an alias info at 3b2archive.org. The list info page is here: 
> 
> https://www.retrotronics.org/mailman/listinfo/3b2info [1] 
> 
> Maybe the first order of business is to enumerate interests and identify potential projects. 
> 
> -Alan 
> 
> On 2017-05-05 16:50, Seth Morabito wrote: 
> * On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 02:45:51PM -0500, Jerry Kemp <sun.mail.list47 at oryx.us> wrote: [...]
> I have CC'ed Mr. Bill in this note, and I suppose ultimately, we will either
> have a new 3b2 home/mailing list, or we will need to find some other place
> to host it. 
> Have we heard anything back yet? Perhaps I'm being over-eager, but I'd
> love to see things move forward.
> 
> -Seth
 

Links:
------
[1] https://www.retrotronics.org/mailman/listinfo/3b2info

From systems.glitch at gmail.com  Mon May  8 13:02:34 2017
From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 14:02:34 -0400
Subject: ISO: Solid State Music IO-8 S-100 Serial Board Manual
Message-ID: <20170508140234.ac0941f8052c650f49e31a10@gmail.com>

Just purchased a Solid State Music IO-8, apparently the manual is not available online, and isn't listed in Herb's documentation collection. Anyone have it? Looks like it's eight Intel 8251A serial ports. 

Thanks,
Jonathan

From systems.glitch at gmail.com  Mon May  8 14:05:17 2017
From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 15:05:17 -0400
Subject: FS: HP 98630A Breadboard Interface Protoboard for HP 9000 Series
 300/200
Message-ID: <20170508150517.0a954d99821bc9afadfb054c@gmail.com>

link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/272663229522

Looks NOS, definitely never had anything soldered in the prototype area. 

Thanks,
Jonathan

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon May  8 15:29:25 2017
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 15:29:25 -0500
Subject: 8i front panel hmm
Message-ID: <CAA3rs200_4aOmo-L766175QPGjAkCXGRX_YKU7Ad-+egDz-xig@mail.gmail.com>

so anyone thats recalls i found a crushed pdp 8i last yr
on friday i was back at the Sean and found the panel in paces actualy found
parts of two of them. one was painted the other was layers of vynal.
thought that was interesting

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4193/34379004552_1bdf3f3431_b.jpg


doesnt include the tub of parts i have... i need to go back and hunt more
it seems
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4185/34539786085_8582a38730_b.jpg

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon May  8 15:37:50 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 13:37:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 8i front panel hmm
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs200_4aOmo-L766175QPGjAkCXGRX_YKU7Ad-+egDz-xig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs200_4aOmo-L766175QPGjAkCXGRX_YKU7Ad-+egDz-xig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705081334420.11240@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 8 May 2017, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> so anyone thats recalls i found a crushed pdp 8i last yr
So, anyone that recalls that I found a crushed PDP 8i last year,

> on friday i was back at the Sean and found the panel in paces actualy found
On Friday, I was back at the scene and found the panel in ?????, actually found

> parts of two of them. one was painted the other was layers of vynal.
parts of two of them.  One was painted, the other was layers of vinyl.

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Mon May  8 15:40:35 2017
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 21:40:35 +0100
Subject: 8i front panel hmm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705081334420.11240@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAA3rs200_4aOmo-L766175QPGjAkCXGRX_YKU7Ad-+egDz-xig@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705081334420.11240@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <dabc290c-9296-20fc-50bf-721b2e17f4c8@btinternet.com>



On 08/05/2017 21:37, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, 8 May 2017, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
>> so anyone thats recalls i found a crushed pdp 8i last yr
> So, anyone that recalls that I found a crushed PDP 8i last year,
>
>> on friday i was back at the Sean and found the panel in paces actualy 
>> found
> On Friday, I was back at the scene and found the panel in ?????, 
> actually found
>
>> parts of two of them. one was painted the other was layers of vynal.
> parts of two of them.  One was painted, the other was layers of vinyl.
All my reproduction 8/i panels are based on an original silk screened panel.
The vinyl one interests me!!

Rod Smallwood

-- 
There is no wrong or right
Nor black and white.
Just darknessand light


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon May  8 15:42:29 2017
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 15:42:29 -0500
Subject: 8i front panel hmm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705081334420.11240@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAA3rs200_4aOmo-L766175QPGjAkCXGRX_YKU7Ad-+egDz-xig@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705081334420.11240@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20qwUn_gPXdB2HEykSpvCc5HKDMjWXbEa7gy1Ud__o0Jw@mail.gmail.com>

damit thought i caught all my typos stupid brain

On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 3:37 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

> On Mon, 8 May 2017, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
>
>> so anyone thats recalls i found a crushed pdp 8i last yr
>>
> So, anyone that recalls that I found a crushed PDP 8i last year,
>
> on friday i was back at the Sean and found the panel in paces actualy found
>>
> On Friday, I was back at the scene and found the panel in ?????, actually
> found
>
> parts of two of them. one was painted the other was layers of vynal.
>>
> parts of two of them.  One was painted, the other was layers of vinyl.
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon May  8 15:46:27 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 13:46:27 -0700
Subject: 8i front panel hmm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705081334420.11240@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAA3rs200_4aOmo-L766175QPGjAkCXGRX_YKU7Ad-+egDz-xig@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705081334420.11240@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <93692cb8-1124-8e10-f992-dd19182c8bb9@sydex.com>

It's okay, Fred.   I know what Adrian meant.

BTW, there's a photo of the the panel in question here:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?53352-the-smashed-8i-resto-project-of-sorts&p=459110#post459110

--Chcuk


On 05/08/2017 01:37 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, 8 May 2017, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
>> so anyone thats recalls i found a crushed pdp 8i last yr
> So, anyone that recalls that I found a crushed PDP 8i last year,
> 
>> on friday i was back at the Sean and found the panel in paces actualy
>> found
> On Friday, I was back at the scene and found the panel in ?????,
> actually found
> 
>> parts of two of them. one was painted the other was layers of vynal.
> parts of two of them.  One was painted, the other was layers of vinyl.


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon May  8 15:54:17 2017
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 15:54:17 -0500
Subject: 8i front panel hmm
In-Reply-To: <dabc290c-9296-20fc-50bf-721b2e17f4c8@btinternet.com>
References: <CAA3rs200_4aOmo-L766175QPGjAkCXGRX_YKU7Ad-+egDz-xig@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705081334420.11240@shell.lmi.net>
 <dabc290c-9296-20fc-50bf-721b2e17f4c8@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs224NB9df8F68kgmCL4dCxf3nJfJJct6bAjZtNJpqs6uzQ@mail.gmail.com>

figured be of interest to u.
im going to return and see if i can find any more parts this week

the vynal has a main layer with the grey white black base pastic more the
vynal like an overlayer witch they add a vynal layer that has the orange
and text on it

they both have a foggy paint covering part of the back as a defuser as well
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4176/34379427552_7c7e6ab8d1_b.jpg



On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 08/05/2017 21:37, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 8 May 2017, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> so anyone thats recalls i found a crushed pdp 8i last yr
>>>
>> So, anyone that recalls that I found a crushed PDP 8i last year,
>>
>> on friday i was back at the Sean and found the panel in paces actualy
>>> found
>>>
>> On Friday, I was back at the scene and found the panel in ?????, actually
>> found
>>
>> parts of two of them. one was painted the other was layers of vynal.
>>>
>> parts of two of them.  One was painted, the other was layers of vinyl.
>>
> All my reproduction 8/i panels are based on an original silk screened
> panel.
> The vinyl one interests me!!
>
> Rod Smallwood
>
> --
> There is no wrong or right
> Nor black and white.
> Just darknessand light
>
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon May  8 16:09:24 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 14:09:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 8i front panel hmm
In-Reply-To: <93692cb8-1124-8e10-f992-dd19182c8bb9@sydex.com>
References: <CAA3rs200_4aOmo-L766175QPGjAkCXGRX_YKU7Ad-+egDz-xig@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705081334420.11240@shell.lmi.net>
 <93692cb8-1124-8e10-f992-dd19182c8bb9@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705081404210.11240@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 8 May 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> It's okay, Fred.   I know what Adrian meant.

I only did it because I took me several minutes to figure out what 
"sean" was, and still not sure of "paces"

Not intended as a personal attack - I make more than my share of typos, 
and way more than my share of stupid errors from misunderstandings.
And, I was confident that Adrian wouldn't be offended.


I'm not sure that I've seen a vinyl front panel.




>>> on friday i was back at the Sean and found the panel in paces actualy found
>>> parts of two of them. one was painted the other was layers of vynal.

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon May  8 16:14:39 2017
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 16:14:39 -0500
Subject: 8i front panel hmm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705081404210.11240@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAA3rs200_4aOmo-L766175QPGjAkCXGRX_YKU7Ad-+egDz-xig@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705081334420.11240@shell.lmi.net>
 <93692cb8-1124-8e10-f992-dd19182c8bb9@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705081404210.11240@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21sbX5tvzh2kjevz4r7gvJXgYPFE8Hx5eiZqqfu+SbZyw@mail.gmail.com>

txs for corrections. and im not offended just embarrassed yet again :( like
said stupid brain i try and dont see things at all its kinda weird

also paces should be peaces

i guess i got a bad trace or two somewhere or somthing eh? time to get the
logic analyzer out

From ball.of.john at gmail.com  Mon May  8 19:35:34 2017
From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 17:35:34 -0700
Subject: BETSI Expander for the Commodore PET
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1494262800.36374.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAMEJDCFAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>

So it seems in the early days of the PET a company by the name of
Forethought Prouducts sold an expansion module called the BETSI which
plugged into the expansion bus of the PET and gave you four S100 slots. If
you google around you can find a flyer advertising the unit and optional
power supply and the owners manual which touches on assembly, component
locations and the schematics. It talks about adding sound voards, additional
video outputs, expanding ram and attaching directly to a larger S100 frame.
Beyond that I can find absolutely nothing else about it, much less a more
recent photo of one. Has anyone here ever used one? How practical were they
in reality? Suppose I went and built one. Does anyone have the PCB layout
templates so I could get a board etched or will I have to stick to the
schematic and build one by hand?

-John


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon May  8 20:02:39 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 21:02:39 -0400
Subject: BETSI Expander for the Commodore PET
In-Reply-To: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAMEJDCFAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1494262800.36374.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAMEJDCFAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucZqGySNDoFSWT+0RXYWV8XvuQivXQ8_FaXC4E2nfrsiA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:35 PM, John Ball via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> So it seems in the early days of the PET a company by the name of
> Forethought Prouducts sold an expansion module called the BETSI which
> plugged into the expansion bus of the PET and gave you four S100 slots. If
> you google around you can find a flyer advertising the unit and optional
> power supply and the owners manual which touches on assembly, component
> locations and the schematics. It talks about adding sound voards,
> additional
> video outputs, expanding ram and attaching directly to a larger S100 frame.
> Beyond that I can find absolutely nothing else about it, much less a more
> recent photo of one. Has anyone here ever used one? How practical were they
> in reality? Suppose I went and built one. Does anyone have the PCB layout
> templates so I could get a board etched or will I have to stick to the
> schematic and build one by hand?
>
> -John
>
>
At VCF SE Don French talked about the S100 expansion he created for the TRS
80 Model 1.  Guess these did not meet with much success.

From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon May  8 20:58:05 2017
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 18:58:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BETSI Expander for the Commodore PET
In-Reply-To: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAMEJDCFAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com> from John
 Ball via cctalk at "May 8, 17 05:35:34 pm"
Message-ID: <201705090158.v491w5eR6684690@floodgap.com>

> So it seems in the early days of the PET a company by the name of
> Forethought Prouducts sold an expansion module called the BETSI which
> plugged into the expansion bus of the PET and gave you four S100 slots. If

This sounds an awful lot like the KIMSI, which was the same manufacturer. I
have such a unit, and as you would expect, it connects to the KIM-1. I can
drag it out and take a picture of it but I don't remember it particularly
complex on the board.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Everything! Is my! Delusion! -- "Dead or Alive 2" --------------------------

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Mon May  8 21:28:03 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 19:28:03 -0700
Subject: BETSI Expander for the Commodore PET
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBucZqGySNDoFSWT+0RXYWV8XvuQivXQ8_FaXC4E2nfrsiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1494262800.36374.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAMEJDCFAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <CABGJBucZqGySNDoFSWT+0RXYWV8XvuQivXQ8_FaXC4E2nfrsiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15f05bb1-a217-c2a3-8c45-ebc75b42afc1@jwsss.com>



On 5/8/2017 6:02 PM, william degnan via cctalk wrote:
> Don French talked about the S100 expansion he created for the TRS
> 80 Model 1
A friend sold a TRS80 -> 488 -> sasi pile that allowed him to hook up 
2.5mb and 5mb drives.

I don't recall his company but he did well enough to bootstrap Peer 
Protocols, which I worked for.  It was a SCSI pioneer company and had 
development tools and the like for target and initiator.

He may have used his Argent company name for those sales.  I know that 
another friend was doing similar with IBM PC to SASI and getting $6000 / 
copy.  Noting that the PC's themselves sold for $6000 at the time.  I 
think my friend was doing well too with his profit on the systems.

thanks
Jim

From RichA at livingcomputers.org  Mon May  8 14:06:30 2017
From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 19:06:30 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UkU6IEV4dHJhY3RpbmcgZmlsZXMgb2ZmIOKAnHVua25vd27igJ0gOCBpbmNo?=
 =?utf-8?B?IGRpc2tzLiBBbnkgdGhvdWdodHPigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSAno10LPiw8NVCP_BZZb07NChRRpT9U7=OAyUrB16m=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngn2A2d0ava_2+adR8ibMRCKfv0vc-5cjf-z0JSM7wyVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60e0ae2d60f04f7aaf55c6729cccdb21@livingcomputers.org>
 <590CB556.4050202@pico-systems.com>
 <bd493404-898d-9279-4545-0cdb608ed273@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020B75A4F98A65FA0B4AE8EDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <50b6b832-12e2-eab6-9020-106005aa1dfa@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13026EA1D8860AE34E3F4B8AEDEB0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705051226540.30091@shell.lmi.net>
 <0f146512-f794-2b1f-021d-310d810e8471@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSAno10LPiw8NVCP_BZZb07NChRRpT9U7=OAyUrB16m=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f45e3104909f46398c3b207162558101@livingcomputers.org>

From: Eric Smith
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2017 3:27 PM

> On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 3:02 PM, allison via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:

>> In the PDP-10 realm not less than a handful Tops10. ITC, more.

> TOPS-10 doesn't have any filesystems for floppy disks, though the KL10
> front-end PDP-11/40 running RSX-20F does, and there are utilities to access
> RSX and RT11 filesystems from TOPS-10.

Unsupported utilities.

Also, RSX-20F can only handle RX01 format.  An RX02 drive can be used, but
not an RX02 format diskette.

> AFAIK, the situation is the same for TOPS-20.  I don't have any idea
> whether ITS, WAITS, Tenex, or the Compuserve Monitor ever had any different
> floppy disk support.

TOPS-20 has no support for the front end RX01, nor does WAITS (which loads the
front end from DECtape, not floppy).  I doubt that TENEX does, since it runs on
KA-10 and KI-10 processors (front ends are loaded from the main processor, not
from their own peripherals).  ITS on the KL-10 is like WAITS, AFAIK:  DECtape,
not floppies.  I can't speak to the CI$ monitor or Tymcom-X.

                                                                Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org

http://www.LivingComputers.org/

From jfehlinger at comcast.net  Mon May  8 14:48:24 2017
From: jfehlinger at comcast.net (JAMES FEHLINGER)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 15:48:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SimH IBM1130 GUI appears "fixed"
In-Reply-To: <1850055263.146096.1494194618135@connect.xfinity.com>
References: <251386307.46740.1493829684195@connect.xfinity.com>
 <884184385.69054.1493868690145@connect.xfinity.com>
 <1412510642.55078.1493908427115@connect.xfinity.com>
 <1782826672.99027.1493953560090@connect.xfinity.com>
 <1850055263.146096.1494194618135@connect.xfinity.com>
Message-ID: <867247650.182802.1494272904668@connect.xfinity.com>

> This is an update on my attempt to run, on the SimH 1130,
> the "Lunar Landing" program featured in one of Carl Claunch's
> YouTube videos. . .

Progress!!

Looking at one of the sample Fortran programs in Wikipedia's
article on the 1130 -- the one that finds the roots of a quadratic
equation -- and in particular, looking at the data cards that
follow the program, adjacent triplets of numbers all strictly
formatted as sign, three digits, decimal, three digits
, i.e. FORMAT 3F8.3 , led me to wonder if the initial console
input for the "Lunar Landing" program might have equally
strict formatting requirements.

I was wrong earlier about the human-readable main program
only handing console I/O -- it does in fact output the initial
console message, but it also does the output to the lineprinter
(and the logical unit for those WRITES is held in a
variable "IOUT" that's also being passed to ORBIT, which suggests
I might want to revisit using the DMS configured for 1403 printer,
by changing the DATA statement in the main program that initializes
"IOUT").  And it is ORBIT subroutine that's prompting on the console
for "ANGLE" and "VELOCITY" (ORBIT gets a logical unit number
for the READs passed as argument "IN"). I can't examine the FORMAT statements
in ORBIT for reading ANGLE and VELOCITY, since I don't have source
code for that piece of the program, but a big clue is that the
field widths for the values of "INCREMENTAL VELOCITY" and "INJECTION ANGLE"
that come out on the lineprinter show up as 11 characters wide on the
lineprinter output (even when the values are junk), and there are F11.0 and F11.3
formats in the code.

So instead of entering, for example, "10" and "10000" on the console,
I tried entering "0000000010." and "0000010000."

And that worked!

At any rate, I now see "INCREMENTAL VELOCITY" and "INJECTION ANGLE"
being reflected on the lineprinter output as the same
numbers as I entered on the console, and I'm actually getting
something that looks like a trajectory plot.  It isn't exactly
heading the right way, but actually learning to play the game
will come later.  ;->

From pete at petelancashire.com  Mon May  8 21:27:31 2017
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 19:27:31 -0700
Subject: 110 Baud modem
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>

Bell 101C

https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101

-pete

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Tue May  9 00:00:15 2017
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 01:00:15 -0400
Subject: 110 Baud modem
Message-ID: <1e2c1c.38dec392.4642a6df@aol.com>

"And the teletypists knees and feet were always kept  warm..."
 
What is the weight of   this  modem Pete?
 
Being the  the earlier   rev of  101 was earlier  technology for SAGE I 
wonder how large it was?
 
Ed# 
 
 
In a message dated 5/8/2017 9:40:52 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

Bell  101C

https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101

-pete


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue May  9 08:47:36 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 09:47:36 -0400
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>


> On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Bell 101C
> 
> https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101

Interesting.  Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.

It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards.  And I sure wonder what those rows of large relays are for.

	paul



From philipp.pap at gmx.net  Tue May  9 08:26:43 2017
From: philipp.pap at gmx.net (Philipp Pap)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 15:26:43 +0200
Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love
Message-ID: <28B620FA-2BFF-40EB-8CEF-173168396261@gmx.net>

Hi Michael, 
dear board 

 Did you solve your power supply problem? 

My Draftmaster I did work for 1 hour, I did even manage to do a demo plot.
 Then it died, right before my eyes the display got brighter and brighter and now - nothing when powering on, except a humming sound.
 I think that I?m responsible for the dead, as the plotter stood in an attic for 20 years, meanwhile power was raised from 220 to 230v (+-10%) 
in Europe.
I realized that the input power can be adjusted between 220 and 240v at the power inlet of the plotter (on the top 
there is a small stage for a screwdriver, then the cover opens and the rotating think can be taken out)!! 

 Anyhow, now I have 41 and 83 Volts at the 42 and 85V test points,
 but always 0 Volts at the +5,-12,+12,+15V test points.
 The fuses are good and the secondary transformer seems good as well. 
 Right now I am waiting for an esr-meter to test the capacitors, 
any clue would be extremely helpful for me! 

 With nice greetings Philipp 
PS: tinkering with this masterpiece of engineering is fun, but now my back hurts, but it is worth it

From spedraja at ono.com  Tue May  9 09:29:14 2017
From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 16:29:14 +0200
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CACytpF-FNomu0jZGokBnN18JGuw8dF4BCDzRmA-_4fJfS9S7mw@mail.gmail.com>

2017-05-09 15:47 GMT+02:00 Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>:

>
> > On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Bell 101C
> >
> > https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101
>
> Interesting.  Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
>
> It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards.  And I sure wonder
> what those rows of large relays are for.
>
>         paul
>

?Of course. But I ever guess about the 101 and other early modems... Would
be possible to emulate them in some way, or their assembly and logic
wouldn't allow it?

Regards
Sergio

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue May  9 09:39:00 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 10:39:00 -0400
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>

So Wikipedia is wrong, since it claims that it was introduced in 1958 for ASCII and 110 Baud.

Then again, 101/103 modem modulation doesn't care about speed (it isn't clocked) up to a limit of 300 baud or so.

I wonder if there is also terminology here: what we now call a "modem" was earlier called a "tuning unit" and that term goes back to 5 bit machines and the 1950s.  It may be more a radio TTY term than a landline term, but the concept is identical.  I remember QST articles around 1958 or so about RTTY tuning units, built out of tubes with a relay (differential relay?) thrown in for good measure. 

	paul

> On May 9, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com> wrote:
> 
> The C version came later with the introduction of ASCII ( 5 to 8 bits ) and 110 baud. So it does not go back to the 50's.
> 
> I do not know when the C version was released. The ASCII Teletype Model 35 was introduced in 1961.
> 
> -pete
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> > On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Bell 101C
> >
> > https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101
> 
> Interesting.  Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
> 
> It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards.  And I sure wonder what those rows of large relays are for.
> 
>         paul
> 
> 
> 
> 


From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Tue May  9 10:22:30 2017
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 08:22:30 -0700
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAiQqZbkaTr5i6BOpHmj8_bffqkbQbtj0g3t+g-e0i7T=A@mail.gmail.com>

Good lord, is that a pile of relays to click out bits rotary-style?

=o

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:39 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> So Wikipedia is wrong, since it claims that it was introduced in 1958 for
> ASCII and 110 Baud.
>
> Then again, 101/103 modem modulation doesn't care about speed (it isn't
> clocked) up to a limit of 300 baud or so.
>
> I wonder if there is also terminology here: what we now call a "modem" was
> earlier called a "tuning unit" and that term goes back to 5 bit machines
> and the 1950s.  It may be more a radio TTY term than a landline term, but
> the concept is identical.  I remember QST articles around 1958 or so about
> RTTY tuning units, built out of tubes with a relay (differential relay?)
> thrown in for good measure.
>
>         paul
>
> > On May 9, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > The C version came later with the introduction of ASCII ( 5 to 8 bits )
> and 110 baud. So it does not go back to the 50's.
> >
> > I do not know when the C version was released. The ASCII Teletype Model
> 35 was introduced in 1961.
> >
> > -pete
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bell 101C
> > >
> > > https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6
> > >
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101
> >
> > Interesting.  Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
> >
> > It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards.  And I sure wonder
> what those rows of large relays are for.
> >
> >         paul
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue May  9 11:06:54 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 09:06:54 -0700
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAiQqZbkaTr5i6BOpHmj8_bffqkbQbtj0g3t+g-e0i7T=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
 <CAJ2mpAiQqZbkaTr5i6BOpHmj8_bffqkbQbtj0g3t+g-e0i7T=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52705ba9-9fd3-5cec-e047-6fba2a919f18@sydex.com>

Looking at this documents:

http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/telegraph/data_set_101c.pdf

I sill can't figure out what a lot of the stuff inside is for.

--Chuck


From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue May  9 11:10:18 2017
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 09 May 2017 11:10:18 -0500
Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love
In-Reply-To: <28B620FA-2BFF-40EB-8CEF-173168396261@gmx.net>
References: <28B620FA-2BFF-40EB-8CEF-173168396261@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <5911E9EA.6070504@pico-systems.com>

On 05/09/2017 08:26 AM, Philipp Pap via cctalk wrote:
>   Anyhow, now I have 41 and 83 Volts at the 42 and 85V test points,
>   but always 0 Volts at the +5,-12,+12,+15V test points.
>   The fuses are good and the secondary transformer seems good as well.
>
Does this have a switching power supply for the logic (5, 
12, 15V) or is it a rectifier/filter/regulator off the 
transformer?
If rectifier/filter/regulator, it seems odd that FOUR 
voltages would quit at once.  So, I'm guessing it might have 
a switching supply for those voltages.  It sounds like the 
regulation circuit failed (display got brighter) and then a 
crowbar circuit tripped to shut it down.  Unless you are 
pretty skilled, switchers can be a bit hard to 
troubleshoot.  It might be easier to get a supply with the 
needed voltages and just patch it in.

Jon

From earl at baugh.org  Tue May  9 12:15:23 2017
From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 13:15:23 -0400
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 35, Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1494349200.35097.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1494349200.35097.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAAucK2UEjKb1D+pWHkBJtNJnfi+J=s0MwHu7RrqUwLiFspfJ0Q@mail.gmail.com>

> Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 21:02:39 -0400
> From: william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: BETSI Expander for the Commodore PET
>
> On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:35 PM, John Ball via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > So it seems in the early days of the PET a company by the name of
> > Forethought Prouducts sold an expansion module called the BETSI which
> > plugged into the expansion bus of the PET and gave you four S100 slots.
> If
> > you google around you can find a flyer advertising the unit and optional
> > power supply and the owners manual which touches on assembly, component
> > locations and the schematics. It talks about adding sound voards,
> > additional
> > video outputs, expanding ram and attaching directly to a larger S100
> frame.
> > Beyond that I can find absolutely nothing else about it, much less a more
> > recent photo of one. Has anyone here ever used one? How practical were
> they
> > in reality? Suppose I went and built one. Does anyone have the PCB layout
> > templates so I could get a board etched or will I have to stick to the
> > schematic and build one by hand?
> >
> > -John
> >
> >
> At VCF SE Don French talked about the S100 expansion he created for the TRS
> 80 Model 1.  Guess these did not meet with much success.
>

BTW, I spoke with Don over dinner after the show and he told me that his
son apparently
archived some stuff when he moved out to NV (he had told me earlier that
most of his
machines got sold/trashed/lost  during his divorce ).  I particularly asked
him to look for
one of the S100 expansion boards...  Will let you know if he found any...

Earl

From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Tue May  9 13:49:53 2017
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 11:49:53 -0700
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <552BAD8E-4AF5-4399-9830-4109DFCC49BA@shaw.ca>

>> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>>> On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Bell 101C
>>> 
>>> https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6
>>> 
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101
>> 
>> Interesting.  Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
>> 
>> It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards.  And I sure wonder what those rows of large relays are for.
>> 
>>        paul

>> On May 9, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com> wrote:
>> 
>> The C version came later with the introduction of ASCII ( 5 to 8 bits ) and 110 baud. So it does not go back to the 50's.
>> 
>> I do not know when the C version was released. The ASCII Teletype Model 35 was introduced in 1961.
>> 
>> -pete

On 2017-May-09, at 7:39 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> So Wikipedia is wrong, since it claims that it was introduced in 1958 for ASCII and 110 Baud.
> 
> Then again, 101/103 modem modulation doesn't care about speed (it isn't clocked) up to a limit of 300 baud or so.
> 
> I wonder if there is also terminology here: what we now call a "modem" was earlier called a "tuning unit" and that term goes back to 5 bit machines and the 1950s.  It may be more a radio TTY term than a landline term, but the concept is identical.  I remember QST articles around 1958 or so about RTTY tuning units, built out of tubes with a relay (differential relay?) thrown in for good measure. 
> 
> 	paul


If my recollection and interpretation of the limited tech description available is correct, SIGSALY was doing frequency-domain-multi-channel, FSK-digital-transmission during WWII, that is, sending multiple digital bit streams over a radio channel. (Along with a host of other amazing technical achievements for the time, including or esp. in the digital realm).

I haven't looked into whether RTTY was prior to that, or post-war, or whether RTTY may have got some of the ideas from SIGSALY.

From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Tue May  9 13:58:55 2017
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 11:58:55 -0700
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <52705ba9-9fd3-5cec-e047-6fba2a919f18@sydex.com>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
 <CAJ2mpAiQqZbkaTr5i6BOpHmj8_bffqkbQbtj0g3t+g-e0i7T=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <52705ba9-9fd3-5cec-e047-6fba2a919f18@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <8BF57344-86DA-40BB-800D-5D09D029675A@shaw.ca>

On 2017-May-09, at 9:06 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Looking at this documents:
> 
> http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/telegraph/data_set_101c.pdf
> 
> I sill can't figure out what a lot of the stuff inside is for.


I've looked at one of these modems in the bottom of a 33 although not examined it in great depth.
I expect a large part of the volume of stuff like the relays isn't really modem but call-management sequencing & switching: on/off hook, incoming-call detect, answer detect, originate/answer mode switching, etc.
Going from examination of another modem from the era, the modem proper can be expected to be on the several PCB cards, modularised as filters, modulator, discriminator, 20mA loop interface, etc.

The telephone equipment manufacturers in those days were very good at laying out and wiring things in an exceedingly complex manner, they really liked wire bundles and dress.

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue May  9 15:17:50 2017
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 20:17:50 +0000
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>,
 <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB16008B6E83DE1610530F8B8DA3EF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Rtty was fsk. You needed a scope or a needle to

indicate when the BFO was centered.

That would be tuning.

I think the Wiky was talking about the 101 standard, not

the hardware.

One wonders what all the terminal strips were for.

Maybe more phone line or you could connect to more

TTYs

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 7:39:00 AM
To: Pete Lancashire
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: 110 Baud modem

So Wikipedia is wrong, since it claims that it was introduced in 1958 for ASCII and 110 Baud.

Then again, 101/103 modem modulation doesn't care about speed (it isn't clocked) up to a limit of 300 baud or so.

I wonder if there is also terminology here: what we now call a "modem" was earlier called a "tuning unit" and that term goes back to 5 bit machines and the 1950s.  It may be more a radio TTY term than a landline term, but the concept is identical.  I remember QST articles around 1958 or so about RTTY tuning units, built out of tubes with a relay (differential relay?) thrown in for good measure.

        paul

> On May 9, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com> wrote:
>
> The C version came later with the introduction of ASCII ( 5 to 8 bits ) and 110 baud. So it does not go back to the 50's.
>
> I do not know when the C version was released. The ASCII Teletype Model 35 was introduced in 1961.
>
> -pete
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Bell 101C
> >
> > https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101
>
> Interesting.  Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
>
> It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards.  And I sure wonder what those rows of large relays are for.
>
>         paul
>
>
>
>


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue May  9 15:19:44 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 16:19:44 -0400
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <8BF57344-86DA-40BB-800D-5D09D029675A@shaw.ca>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
 <CAJ2mpAiQqZbkaTr5i6BOpHmj8_bffqkbQbtj0g3t+g-e0i7T=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <52705ba9-9fd3-5cec-e047-6fba2a919f18@sydex.com>
 <8BF57344-86DA-40BB-800D-5D09D029675A@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <665C403A-4795-4861-8B9D-BDEB4BFD10FC@comcast.net>


> On May 9, 2017, at 2:58 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 2017-May-09, at 9:06 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> Looking at this documents:
>> 
>> http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/telegraph/data_set_101c.pdf
>> 
>> I sill can't figure out what a lot of the stuff inside is for.
> 
> 
> I've looked at one of these modems in the bottom of a 33 although not examined it in great depth.
> I expect a large part of the volume of stuff like the relays isn't really modem but call-management sequencing & switching: on/off hook, incoming-call detect, answer detect, originate/answer mode switching, etc.

Yes, that's what the manual suggests, it lists a half dozen relays.  It's not clear why any of them would be more than one or two pole relays, but perhaps the ones that were actually used (which are many-pole devices) happened to be standard units and were "more than enough for the job".

	paul



From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue May  9 15:27:36 2017
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 20:27:36 +0000
Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love
In-Reply-To: <28B620FA-2BFF-40EB-8CEF-173168396261@gmx.net>
References: <28B620FA-2BFF-40EB-8CEF-173168396261@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB1600B4C9925D7B297DBDA1BBA3EF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

I would guess the lower voltages are generated from

a switcher off the 85 or 42 volt lines.

First check with an ohm meter in those lines to look for

a dead short.

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Philipp Pap via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 6:26:43 AM
To: michael.newton at gmail.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love

Hi Michael,
dear board

 Did you solve your power supply problem?

My Draftmaster I did work for 1 hour, I did even manage to do a demo plot.
 Then it died, right before my eyes the display got brighter and brighter and now - nothing when powering on, except a humming sound.
 I think that I?m responsible for the dead, as the plotter stood in an attic for 20 years, meanwhile power was raised from 220 to 230v (+-10%)
in Europe.
I realized that the input power can be adjusted between 220 and 240v at the power inlet of the plotter (on the top
there is a small stage for a screwdriver, then the cover opens and the rotating think can be taken out)!!

 Anyhow, now I have 41 and 83 Volts at the 42 and 85V test points,
 but always 0 Volts at the +5,-12,+12,+15V test points.
 The fuses are good and the secondary transformer seems good as well.
 Right now I am waiting for an esr-meter to test the capacitors,
any clue would be extremely helpful for me!

 With nice greetings Philipp
PS: tinkering with this masterpiece of engineering is fun, but now my back hurts, but it is worth it

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue May  9 15:27:44 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 16:27:44 -0400
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR14MB16008B6E83DE1610530F8B8DA3EF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
 <MWHPR14MB16008B6E83DE1610530F8B8DA3EF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <5F2ED43D-4E8D-4B39-AE62-85FA50E75D9B@comcast.net>


> On May 9, 2017, at 4:17 PM, dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Rtty was fsk. You needed a scope or a needle to
> indicate when the BFO was centered.
> That would be tuning.

Bell 101 and 103 modems (and 202 for that matter) are also unclocked FSK.

	paul



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue May  9 15:31:11 2017
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 16:31:11 -0400
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <8BF57344-86DA-40BB-800D-5D09D029675A@shaw.ca>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
 <CAJ2mpAiQqZbkaTr5i6BOpHmj8_bffqkbQbtj0g3t+g-e0i7T=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <52705ba9-9fd3-5cec-e047-6fba2a919f18@sydex.com>
 <8BF57344-86DA-40BB-800D-5D09D029675A@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmdgw-HD_259XRV2mW7ULYmU4=X6est_YYE3RuD6p=jLA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On 2017-May-09, at 9:06 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> Looking at this documents:
>>
>> http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/telegraph/data_set_101c.pdf

What a find.  Thank you!

> I've looked at one of these modems in the bottom of a 33 although not examined it in great depth.

I've got a 101C in the bottom of an ASR33 I got at Dayton many, many
years ago.  I have no idea how any of it works at the detail level (I
get how it works at the system level).  Fortunately for me, it's never
required any deep fiddling.

The one thing I need to do is replace the touchtone keypad on that
ASR33 - I removed it many years ago and failed to document it
sufficiently to just "put it back".  I can probably figure out about
80% of it from obvious signs (like which screw terminals are lifted
and empty), but even before I begin, I have 2 loose touchtone keypads
from the same era with different numbers of wires and I didn't mark
the one from the ASR33 (the other is from a Western Electric
telephone).

The 101C Data Set, though, is, to me, a large aluminum clad box of
mystery in the ASR33 pedestal.

-ethan

From pete at petelancashire.com  Tue May  9 09:32:37 2017
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 07:32:37 -0700
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>

The C version came later with the introduction of ASCII ( 5 to 8 bits ) and
110 baud. So it does not go back to the 50's.

I do not know when the C version was released. The ASCII Teletype Model 35
was introduced in 1961.

-pete




On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:

>
> > On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Bell 101C
> >
> > https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101
>
> Interesting.  Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
>
> It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards.  And I sure wonder
> what those rows of large relays are for.
>
>         paul
>
>
>
>

From pete at petelancashire.com  Tue May  9 09:40:39 2017
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 07:40:39 -0700
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <CACytpF-FNomu0jZGokBnN18JGuw8dF4BCDzRmA-_4fJfS9S7mw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CACytpF-FNomu0jZGokBnN18JGuw8dF4BCDzRmA-_4fJfS9S7mw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u--eKdbWSN1e+dXJX8Cgj4NkT5Os71GObuk4PovNDkPGA@mail.gmail.com>

It would depend on what you wanted to emulate. The 'logic' you see in the
relays and here

https://goo.gl/photos/4sDv7MGRvknugiAGA

Would be very easy.

The logic is to handle auto answer, carrier detect, motor control, local vs
remote loop etc. All the things
that were miniaturized by Penrill and later Hays.

The rest is pretty much analog design. One could fully emulate the circuit
in Spice but that would not give one real time (be fun to see how fast one
could).

-pete





On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:29 AM, SPC via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> 2017-05-09 15:47 GMT+02:00 Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>:
>
> >
> > > On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <
> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bell 101C
> > >
> > > https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6
> > >
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101
> >
> > Interesting.  Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
> >
> > It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards.  And I sure wonder
> > what those rows of large relays are for.
> >
> >         paul
> >
>
> ?Of course. But I ever guess about the 101 and other early modems... Would
> be possible to emulate them in some way, or their assembly and logic
> wouldn't allow it?
>
> Regards
> Sergio
>
>

From pete at petelancashire.com  Tue May  9 09:57:13 2017
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 07:57:13 -0700
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u-=wr5iWb9Hid4OgUXh+8ojk-datHuWJLQPBhDoTVQVCg@mail.gmail.com>

Wikipedia is wrong a lot of times. Usually in the details.

Modem or MOdulator DEModulator had to come about when one could finally put
a modulator (voltage or current loop) in and get a modulated signal out,
and the reverse, and thirdly all the control circuitry to automate things.

Long before that, each function was separate.

I can find 1958 and SAGE but non have any proof, and many references are
circular.

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:39 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:

> So Wikipedia is wrong, since it claims that it was introduced in 1958 for
> ASCII and 110 Baud.
>
> Then again, 101/103 modem modulation doesn't care about speed (it isn't
> clocked) up to a limit of 300 baud or so.
>
> I wonder if there is also terminology here: what we now call a "modem" was
> earlier called a "tuning unit" and that term goes back to 5 bit machines
> and the 1950s.  It may be more a radio TTY term than a landline term, but
> the concept is identical.  I remember QST articles around 1958 or so about
> RTTY tuning units, built out of tubes with a relay (differential relay?)
> thrown in for good measure.
>
>         paul
>
> > On May 9, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > The C version came later with the introduction of ASCII ( 5 to 8 bits )
> and 110 baud. So it does not go back to the 50's.
> >
> > I do not know when the C version was released. The ASCII Teletype Model
> 35 was introduced in 1961.
> >
> > -pete
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bell 101C
> > >
> > > https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6
> > >
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101
> >
> > Interesting.  Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
> >
> > It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards.  And I sure wonder
> what those rows of large relays are for.
> >
> >         paul
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Tue May  9 10:11:00 2017
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 11:11:00 -0400
Subject: SMS 8" Floppy Drive
Message-ID: <abdc25f3-54b3-bc0d-127f-9b91d730089b@comcast.net>

All this talk about 8 inch floppies got me to look at a unit I have 
stored away.  It is a rack mounted dual 8 inch floppy drive, SMS FWT 
Series.

Model - FWT0522I-R

It has one IDC connection on the back, 34 pin.

The formatter in the unit has numbers - 1001828-0001 H and 0003451-0001 
J written on it.

Bitsavers didn't have anything about the FWT05 model, does anyone know 
if a Qbus controller exists for this?

If it does perhaps I could get it working and hook it up to my MicroVax 
II, that would be an odd combination.

Doug


From pete at petelancashire.com  Tue May  9 10:14:03 2017
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 08:14:03 -0700
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u-=wr5iWb9Hid4OgUXh+8ojk-datHuWJLQPBhDoTVQVCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u-=wr5iWb9Hid4OgUXh+8ojk-datHuWJLQPBhDoTVQVCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u_5BzyKpF+aOmOEeMi9QbCYL6kWG5fgBjfb0AFD+1kg8Q@mail.gmail.com>

The BSPs for Data Set 101C

Identification and Operation March 1963 (Issue 2)

Test and Installation Methods May 1967

Locating Trouble and Test Procedures 1964

http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/telegraph/data_set_101c.pdf

Answers the questions about the relays

-pete



On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:57 AM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com>
wrote:

> Wikipedia is wrong a lot of times. Usually in the details.
>
> Modem or MOdulator DEModulator had to come about when one could finally
> put a modulator (voltage or current loop) in and get a modulated signal
> out, and the reverse, and thirdly all the control circuitry to automate
> things.
>
> Long before that, each function was separate.
>
> I can find 1958 and SAGE but non have any proof, and many references are
> circular.
>
> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:39 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>> So Wikipedia is wrong, since it claims that it was introduced in 1958 for
>> ASCII and 110 Baud.
>>
>> Then again, 101/103 modem modulation doesn't care about speed (it isn't
>> clocked) up to a limit of 300 baud or so.
>>
>> I wonder if there is also terminology here: what we now call a "modem"
>> was earlier called a "tuning unit" and that term goes back to 5 bit
>> machines and the 1950s.  It may be more a radio TTY term than a landline
>> term, but the concept is identical.  I remember QST articles around 1958 or
>> so about RTTY tuning units, built out of tubes with a relay (differential
>> relay?) thrown in for good measure.
>>
>>         paul
>>
>> > On May 9, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > The C version came later with the introduction of ASCII ( 5 to 8 bits )
>> and 110 baud. So it does not go back to the 50's.
>> >
>> > I do not know when the C version was released. The ASCII Teletype Model
>> 35 was introduced in 1961.
>> >
>> > -pete
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Bell 101C
>> > >
>> > > https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6
>> > >
>> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101
>> >
>> > Interesting.  Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
>> >
>> > It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards.  And I sure
>> wonder what those rows of large relays are for.
>> >
>> >         paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>

From pete at petelancashire.com  Tue May  9 11:16:08 2017
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 09:16:08 -0700
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAiQqZbkaTr5i6BOpHmj8_bffqkbQbtj0g3t+g-e0i7T=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
 <CAJ2mpAiQqZbkaTr5i6BOpHmj8_bffqkbQbtj0g3t+g-e0i7T=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u8OLKkC7WN1+rFWWmys5HVbVNCAEDA7DLfX847Uq4Bt5Q@mail.gmail.com>

The relays are for controlling the modes function/mode. For example if the
unit is put in local mode, or when an incoming call is "Answered" the motor
will start running.



On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Good lord, is that a pile of relays to click out bits rotary-style?
>
> =o
>
> --
> Anders Nelson
>
> +1 (517) 775-6129
>
> www.erogear.com
>
> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:39 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > So Wikipedia is wrong, since it claims that it was introduced in 1958 for
> > ASCII and 110 Baud.
> >
> > Then again, 101/103 modem modulation doesn't care about speed (it isn't
> > clocked) up to a limit of 300 baud or so.
> >
> > I wonder if there is also terminology here: what we now call a "modem"
> was
> > earlier called a "tuning unit" and that term goes back to 5 bit machines
> > and the 1950s.  It may be more a radio TTY term than a landline term, but
> > the concept is identical.  I remember QST articles around 1958 or so
> about
> > RTTY tuning units, built out of tubes with a relay (differential relay?)
> > thrown in for good measure.
> >
> >         paul
> >
> > > On May 9, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > The C version came later with the introduction of ASCII ( 5 to 8 bits )
> > and 110 baud. So it does not go back to the 50's.
> > >
> > > I do not know when the C version was released. The ASCII Teletype Model
> > 35 was introduced in 1961.
> > >
> > > -pete
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <
> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bell 101C
> > > >
> > > > https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6
> > > >
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101
> > >
> > > Interesting.  Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
> > >
> > > It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards.  And I sure
> wonder
> > what those rows of large relays are for.
> > >
> > >         paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

From pete at petelancashire.com  Tue May  9 12:08:31 2017
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 10:08:31 -0700
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <52705ba9-9fd3-5cec-e047-6fba2a919f18@sydex.com>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
 <CAJ2mpAiQqZbkaTr5i6BOpHmj8_bffqkbQbtj0g3t+g-e0i7T=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <52705ba9-9fd3-5cec-e047-6fba2a919f18@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u8GzG28MJJ=0BbaLqidugW1q-pp4LU4nkpEB4=imyHiWg@mail.gmail.com>

Once you convert from Bell to English things make a bit more sense. One has
to have a understanding of analog engineering terms but this oldie pretty
much works the same as any Hayes etc modems.

The Modulator takes digital 1/0 levels and converts to one of two sine wave
frequencies.

The Limiter, Discriminator take from the sender the analog waveform (pretty
much sine wave) and limits the amplitude and the  discriminator decides if
the frequency is a 1 or 0. The hybrid does impedance matching, echo
cancellation etc.

Many of the terminal block connections are for setting signal levels, later
this was done with circuitry, but was
too complex for doing in individual transistors, or at least in the space
available.

The Restrainer is filter looking for a particular frequency and when one
comes down the line from the CO, it basically is a slow down signal.

Timer - timing

Send Break timer - think Signetics 555.

I've not seen a clear breakdown of the relays

AN (AK?) - Answer
CON - Connected
M - Momentarily hold
OR - Originate vs Receive (controls the frequencies etc)
S
RU
CY
RB
RS





On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:06 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Looking at this documents:
>
> http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/telegraph/data_set_101c.pdf
>
> I sill can't figure out what a lot of the stuff inside is for.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

From philipp.pap at gmx.net  Tue May  9 13:23:05 2017
From: philipp.pap at gmx.net (Philipp Pap)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 20:23:05 +0200
Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love
In-Reply-To: <5911E9EA.6070504@pico-systems.com>
References: <28B620FA-2BFF-40EB-8CEF-173168396261@gmx.net>
 <5911E9EA.6070504@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <A4F27A85-68D2-475F-B5ED-E369B09E5E8B@gmx.net>


> Am 09.05.2017 um 18:10 schrieb Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com>:
> 
> On 05/09/2017 08:26 AM, Philipp Pap via cctalk wrote:
>>  Anyhow, now I have 41 and 83 Volts at the 42 and 85V test points,
>>  but always 0 Volts at the +5,-12,+12,+15V test points.
>>  The fuses are good and the secondary transformer seems good as well.
>> 
> Does this have a switching power supply for the logic (5, 12, 15V) or is it a rectifier/filter/regulator off the transformer?
> If rectifier/filter/regulator, it seems odd that FOUR voltages would quit at once.  So, I'm guessing it might have a switching supply for those voltages.  It sounds like the regulation circuit failed (display got brighter) and then a crowbar circuit tripped to shut it down.  Unless you are pretty skilled, switchers can be a bit hard to troubleshoot.  It might be easier to get a supply with the needed voltages and just patch it in.
> 
> Jon

Jon

Could you please have a quick look at the photos here https://goo.gl/photos/m5qW1bz8kSujfK7J8 as I?m way under your skill level.
Does this look like rectifier/filter/regulator or a switching supply?
A complete schematic would make things simpler.
Thanks!!!


From philipp.pap at gmx.net  Tue May  9 13:29:35 2017
From: philipp.pap at gmx.net (Philipp Pap)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 20:29:35 +0200
Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love
In-Reply-To: <5911E9EA.6070504@pico-systems.com>
References: <28B620FA-2BFF-40EB-8CEF-173168396261@gmx.net>
 <5911E9EA.6070504@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <0EB2BABF-88E7-49B7-BFAD-272BD1A277B7@gmx.net>


> Am 09.05.2017 um 18:10 schrieb Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com>:
> 
> On 05/09/2017 08:26 AM, Philipp Pap via cctalk wrote:
>>  Anyhow, now I have 41 and 83 Volts at the 42 and 85V test points,
>>  but always 0 Volts at the +5,-12,+12,+15V test points.
>>  The fuses are good and the secondary transformer seems good as well.
>> 
> Does this have a switching power supply for the logic (5, 12, 15V) or is it a rectifier/filter/regulator off the transformer?
> If rectifier/filter/regulator, it seems odd that FOUR voltages would quit at once.  So, I'm guessing it might have a switching supply for those voltages.  It sounds like the regulation circuit failed (display got brighter) and then a crowbar circuit tripped to shut it down.  Unless you are pretty skilled, switchers can be a bit hard to troubleshoot.  It might be easier to get a supply with the needed voltages and just patch it in.
> 
> Jon
OK, I just read in the service manual
?The power supple is a switching type dc supply incorporating a pulse-width modulator (PWM).?
but I don?t know the meaning on the drawing ?+5V ref? ?vcc? ? POWER ON ??~RESET , HALT, RESET?
Could that mean that the problem could be in this ?POWER ON? block logic???

Thanks again!

From shadoooo at gmail.com  Tue May  9 14:05:37 2017
From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 21:05:37 +0200
Subject: SMS 8" Floppy Drive
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsU6OtTS0k0RZ8-=yi3QwrY+Jb01nRok1F0a+p9W_ZgAzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsV-s2LA8LF=BG0cAYcVCmjRXogj22vooenG2oO8pY9TgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWokq61rdQOKT71eV5nf-YdrX-mz+-P+PtZkZLBsAz_Ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsUTj2yyJtsBzDxQArVUMm-d1OMaHD+bJ_y1a31C=52CkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXqAM5fZLSuTBEN2Hitbx81py0CirSu+t_FGtgEa7dhig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWZrhFbRevXAFC29Q7fPyDQp8YtNZZ18BUGKQOoUqGxNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXLwce=yL3qC5UAOYLgnD4PY7=kcWaatG6_DkyceiU86A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsU6OtTS0k0RZ8-=yi3QwrY+Jb01nRok1F0a+p9W_ZgAzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM4zSsWC+=AyAh4nw5LuBZKm3TWS1ymT5qKJBtC7OR_KtE0dvA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
I have a clone PDP11, including an SMS QBUS board and a 8" drive.
Not sure if it's the same model as yours.
The controller runs MSCP for floppy with RX02 or IBM format , and for an
MFM hard disk like Seagate ST251.
Board code is SMS FWD0106.
I should have some manual and drivers for it somewhere, if you manage to
find the board, but utilities like formatter aren't for VAX, IIRC.

Andrea

From pete at petelancashire.com  Tue May  9 15:41:24 2017
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 13:41:24 -0700
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <665C403A-4795-4861-8B9D-BDEB4BFD10FC@comcast.net>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
 <CAJ2mpAiQqZbkaTr5i6BOpHmj8_bffqkbQbtj0g3t+g-e0i7T=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <52705ba9-9fd3-5cec-e047-6fba2a919f18@sydex.com>
 <8BF57344-86DA-40BB-800D-5D09D029675A@shaw.ca>
 <665C403A-4795-4861-8B9D-BDEB4BFD10FC@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u_TQY8oeS-dTpa3rTMfeY2A3yxrKenRPH8xTMrFmrVHSQ@mail.gmail.com>

The relays were from WECO. Made by the millions, they were the ones  used
in all Bell telephone exchanged from the early 50's up to the ESS
(electronic) exchanges. Remember seeing ones with less then a full
compliment of contacts, but that was pretty uncommon.

https://archive.org/details/bstj31-6-1023




On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> > On May 9, 2017, at 2:58 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 2017-May-09, at 9:06 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> >> Looking at this documents:
> >>
> >> http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/telegraph/data_set_101c.pdf
> >>
> >> I sill can't figure out what a lot of the stuff inside is for.
> >
> >
> > I've looked at one of these modems in the bottom of a 33 although not
> examined it in great depth.
> > I expect a large part of the volume of stuff like the relays isn't
> really modem but call-management sequencing & switching: on/off hook,
> incoming-call detect, answer detect, originate/answer mode switching, etc.
>
> Yes, that's what the manual suggests, it lists a half dozen relays.  It's
> not clear why any of them would be more than one or two pole relays, but
> perhaps the ones that were actually used (which are many-pole devices)
> happened to be standard units and were "more than enough for the job".
>
>         paul
>
>
>
>

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Tue May  9 17:18:35 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 22:18:35 +0000
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR14MB16008B6E83DE1610530F8B8DA3EF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>,
 <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>,
 <MWHPR14MB16008B6E83DE1610530F8B8DA3EF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB130217427749CF2FC5982AFBEDEF0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of dwight via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 4:17 PM
To: Paul Koning; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: 110 Baud modem

Rtty was fsk. You needed a scope or a needle to

___________________________________________

Or a good ear.  :-)

bill

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Tue May  9 19:33:48 2017
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 19:33:48 -0500
Subject: 8i front panel hmm
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs21sbX5tvzh2kjevz4r7gvJXgYPFE8Hx5eiZqqfu+SbZyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs200_4aOmo-L766175QPGjAkCXGRX_YKU7Ad-+egDz-xig@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705081334420.11240@shell.lmi.net>
 <93692cb8-1124-8e10-f992-dd19182c8bb9@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705081404210.11240@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAA3rs21sbX5tvzh2kjevz4r7gvJXgYPFE8Hx5eiZqqfu+SbZyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23bAA4BXeOxjjp2K59GDsbVpsDUTO0OD+Wma7H25dZXZA@mail.gmail.com>

went back to the sean found this and one more switch bunch more cards
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4159/34433937071_ddcbdb994a_b.jpg

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue May  9 19:55:36 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 20:55:36 -0400
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u_TQY8oeS-dTpa3rTMfeY2A3yxrKenRPH8xTMrFmrVHSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
 <CAJ2mpAiQqZbkaTr5i6BOpHmj8_bffqkbQbtj0g3t+g-e0i7T=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <52705ba9-9fd3-5cec-e047-6fba2a919f18@sydex.com>
 <8BF57344-86DA-40BB-800D-5D09D029675A@shaw.ca>
 <665C403A-4795-4861-8B9D-BDEB4BFD10FC@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_TQY8oeS-dTpa3rTMfeY2A3yxrKenRPH8xTMrFmrVHSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <69B789EB-473E-4361-B10F-DA2A03E20DFD@comcast.net>


> On May 9, 2017, at 4:41 PM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com> wrote:
> 
> The relays were from WECO. Made by the millions, they were the ones  used in all Bell telephone exchanged from the early 50's up to the ESS (electronic) exchanges. Remember seeing ones with less then a full compliment of contacts, but that was pretty uncommon.
> 
> https://archive.org/details/bstj31-6-1023

Nice, thanks.  I recognize the older "U" style relays, my father used a bunch of those in various ham radio projects.

The end of that article describes Wire Wrap technology.  I wonder if that was the first time it appeared.

	paul



From ball.of.john at gmail.com  Tue May  9 21:56:42 2017
From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 19:56:42 -0700
Subject: BETSI Expander for the Commodore PET
In-Reply-To: <201705090158.v491w5eR6684690@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAOEJFCFAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>

>This sounds an awful lot like the KIMSI, which was the same manufacturer. I
>have such a unit, and as you would expect, it connects to the KIM-1. I can
>drag it out and take a picture of it but I don't remember it particularly
>complex on the board.

I know Bruce Damer has a KIMSI as well in the collection. In fact it seems
like the KIMSI was a lot more popular as I can find far more photos of it
than the BETSI.
Unfortunately in my digging I am still unable to get the layout diagrams to
reproduce the board but photographs of the front and back will work just as
well. If anyone has a BETSI and is willing to take the photos for me please
drop me a message.

-John


From brain at jbrain.com  Tue May  9 22:46:08 2017
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 22:46:08 -0500
Subject: Need help reproducing a PCB
Message-ID: <8a0d896c-b107-e560-27fd-a903d48765b2@jbrain.com>

I am trying to reproduce a PCB design, and I have removed all the ICs, 
scanned the boards, and am trying to draw it up in EAGLE.  But, it would 
much easier if I could import the actual PCB as a bitmap under my PCB 
layout, to ensure I have have everything in the right place.

Sadly, my graphics manipulation skills are suboptimal, and I am 
wondering if there is anyone on the list that could take my scans and 
convert them into 2 color bitmaps of the correct size such that I could 
import.  When I tried to convert, the difference between light green and 
dark green essentially removed most of the traces.

Jim


-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Tue May  9 23:01:33 2017
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 23:01:33 -0500
Subject: pdp 8i wood front panel back
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21R6h-HoZ8cj6JwF8U+5a23Uc_jA7wJQGMEEx9kNRNcwA@mail.gmail.com>

i rescued 2 today that were buried for a yr in mud cleaned it up the one
that was still one peic
https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/882x662q90/923/M4e2cc.jpg



noticed it was starting to curve as it dried so i cleaned the mud off it
and put it between a towel and some concreat blocks? that should stop it
from curving right and help corect the bit that started?
https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/496x662q90/922/RjHMCe.jpg


i got a second one of these thats snaped in half i found in the same
location still has all the studs atached so prolly use it for parts to fix
this one or ill fire up the shop bot at the hackerspac

any advice?

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Tue May  9 23:07:33 2017
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 23:07:33 -0500
Subject: Apollo 013034 mother board
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuPGxm55QnpEe+u_0Pxpi55w4WSevFhparnpHfOF2euYgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuPGxm55QnpEe+u_0Pxpi55w4WSevFhparnpHfOF2euYgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20noS_FNhp3nMXgPWfA2ipiAYBwpNGsJZEJY0LS+9iz+g@mail.gmail.com>

this wound up in my spam folder

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 1:59 AM, Paul Anderson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Please contact me off list with questions. Domestic shipping $15.
>

From david.collins at dimensiondata.com  Tue May  9 19:10:47 2017
From: david.collins at dimensiondata.com (David Collins (AU))
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 00:10:47 +0000
Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love
In-Reply-To: <0EB2BABF-88E7-49B7-BFAD-272BD1A277B7@gmx.net>
References: <28B620FA-2BFF-40EB-8CEF-173168396261@gmx.net>
 <5911E9EA.6070504@pico-systems.com>
 <0EB2BABF-88E7-49B7-BFAD-272BD1A277B7@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <08B4EA716FF4E34993CCD8FC4D3CCDC968D6787E@AUAUGLSSVPMBX01>

Is there 42 Volts on both sides of the 42V fuse?   Seems odd that there's 42V to the switcher but no voltage at the other end but the fuse is intact.  Normally when the switcher blows, the main switching transistor shorts and takes out the supply fuse. 

The power supply transistors are on the black heatsink near the transformer with the yellow label.  I'd be checking those to make sure they are OK using a transistor tester or multimeter on the 'diode' setting. I'd also check nearby diodes and transistors to make sure they are OK as well.  Tricky without a schematic that's for sure. 

I have an RX that powers up but don?t have access to it until the weekend but I could try to assist with voltage checks to allow you to compare if that helps. 

David Collins
HP Computer Museum
www.hpmuseum.net

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philipp Pap via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, 10 May 2017 4:30 AM
To: Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com>
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love


> Am 09.05.2017 um 18:10 schrieb Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com>:
> 
> On 05/09/2017 08:26 AM, Philipp Pap via cctalk wrote:
>>  Anyhow, now I have 41 and 83 Volts at the 42 and 85V test points,  
>> but always 0 Volts at the +5,-12,+12,+15V test points.
>>  The fuses are good and the secondary transformer seems good as well.
>> 
> Does this have a switching power supply for the logic (5, 12, 15V) or is it a rectifier/filter/regulator off the transformer?
> If rectifier/filter/regulator, it seems odd that FOUR voltages would quit at once.  So, I'm guessing it might have a switching supply for those voltages.  It sounds like the regulation circuit failed (display got brighter) and then a crowbar circuit tripped to shut it down.  Unless you are pretty skilled, switchers can be a bit hard to troubleshoot.  It might be easier to get a supply with the needed voltages and just patch it in.
> 
> Jon
OK, I just read in the service manual
?The power supple is a switching type dc supply incorporating a pulse-width modulator (PWM).? but I don?t know the meaning on the drawing ?+5V ref? ?vcc? ? POWER ON ??~RESET , HALT, RESET? Could that mean that the problem could be in this ?POWER ON? block logic???

Thanks again!

From pete at petelancashire.com  Tue May  9 19:34:11 2017
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 17:34:11 -0700
Subject: 110 Baud modem
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB130217427749CF2FC5982AFBEDEF0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <CAA-F0u9rDd+ppVG4jDbcH92ZLuowEX_H7dzzyFYVTOkGsKdhrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ABD359CB-B75D-417C-912D-0A7D6CC699CA@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u_gznDgq5Qe_20UN5AmRWGSAs7DFYzHNfs0LMbHp8K12w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1616AB22-9EB5-47F8-A5FE-841CB9F9F5E2@comcast.net>
 <MWHPR14MB16008B6E83DE1610530F8B8DA3EF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <BN3PR01MB130217427749CF2FC5982AFBEDEF0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u-8=0SUOY6zO-Y3KzgQQ98iP5NSxqVqWvs_Hx7V_kDdXg@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone else have a 101c hooked up ? When I get this one and the 35KSR it
belongs with I would like to try getting both to talk to each other and do
a video.

On May 9, 2017 3:18 PM, "Bill Gunshannon via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>
> ________________________________________
> From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of dwight via
> cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 4:17 PM
> To: Paul Koning; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: 110 Baud modem
>
> Rtty was fsk. You needed a scope or a needle to
>
> ___________________________________________
>
> Or a good ear.  :-)
>
> bill
>
>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue May  9 20:56:15 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 21:56:15 -0400
Subject: Morrow 8" disk image CP/M uploaded
Message-ID: <CABGJBucvW3Ppjbq8GFTEN2+s3Gq0h7jsK_TXatjvu-Et6zh7hA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I was contacted though my site by someone looking for a boot disk for their
California Computer System S-100 2200 computer with Morrow's Disk Jockey
DJ/DMA floppy disk controller.  I checked and found what might be a
suitable disk.

I imaged the disk and the file has been uploaded to my web site along with
a PDF of the directory the original owner printed and inserted into the
disk sleeve. Does anyone have such a drive controller and would like to
take a look at this image to see if it's usable?  Uploaded, here:

http://vintagecomputer.net/disk_images/Morrow/

There may be something wrong with the disk.  The label reads
8" Morrow E14 Phil's System Disk Backup 9/22/86
Permanent error on boot track

Despite what was printed on the lable I was able to image the disk without
error.  I am hoping the error referred to in the hand-written label is not
a physical error and can be edited/corrected.  Maybe this disk is
salvageable, maybe the error is a BIOs thing.

There was talk about trying to find a diskJockey boot disk on this list a
few weeks ago (right?), if so I hope this is useful.  If anyone attempts to
read, let me know how it goes.

Bill

From pete at petelancashire.com  Tue May  9 21:59:24 2017
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 19:59:24 -0700
Subject: 101C Modem boards
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u9nA-2uQW=jOuYfdXUbJ0=GW1h6Y=KH8+0zM1i2BzVqgw@mail.gmail.com>

https://goo.gl/photos/GdcXVcWBS43Gh3UU7

From systems.glitch at gmail.com  Wed May 10 07:22:13 2017
From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 08:22:13 -0400
Subject: Need help reproducing a PCB
In-Reply-To: <8a0d896c-b107-e560-27fd-a903d48765b2@jbrain.com>
References: <8a0d896c-b107-e560-27fd-a903d48765b2@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <20170510082213.05eb263a9c4874bef61f532a@gmail.com>

Mile High Test/Gardien Services in Colorado will scan boards for you and give you ready-to-go Gerbers. It cost around $250 to have an OSI sized 2-layer board scanned (8x10 inches).

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Tue, 9 May 2017 22:46:08 -0500
Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I am trying to reproduce a PCB design, and I have removed all the ICs, 
> scanned the boards, and am trying to draw it up in EAGLE.  But, it would 
> much easier if I could import the actual PCB as a bitmap under my PCB 
> layout, to ensure I have have everything in the right place.
> 
> Sadly, my graphics manipulation skills are suboptimal, and I am 
> wondering if there is anyone on the list that could take my scans and 
> convert them into 2 color bitmaps of the correct size such that I could 
> import.  When I tried to convert, the difference between light green and 
> dark green essentially removed most of the traces.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jim Brain
> brain at jbrain.com
> www.jbrain.com
> 

From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com  Wed May 10 10:23:56 2017
From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 09:23:56 -0600
Subject: Need help reproducing a PCB
In-Reply-To: <8a0d896c-b107-e560-27fd-a903d48765b2@jbrain.com>
References: <8a0d896c-b107-e560-27fd-a903d48765b2@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <CAM_jms=9fvArhRJg1=Mvrxo3akp2m4NdNNHbHsZugMgeX=DNUA@mail.gmail.com>

If this is a one off all you need to do is print the negatives on
transparency material with a laser printer.
The laser printers tend to have a little more opacity than ink jets do but
I have done this with an ink jet
printer as well.  I also once plotted directly on the bare copper with a
sharpie and had it turn out ok.

Align the negatives on the sensitized board stock.
Expose.
Develop.
Etch.
Drill
Solder in your feed throughs.
Put the parts on the board.
Debug

If on the other hand you want to make even 5 boards you would be better off
with your approach.

Best wishes!

-- 
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175

From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Wed May 10 11:20:02 2017
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 09:20:02 -0700
Subject: Need help reproducing a PCB
In-Reply-To: <CAM_jms=9fvArhRJg1=Mvrxo3akp2m4NdNNHbHsZugMgeX=DNUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8a0d896c-b107-e560-27fd-a903d48765b2@jbrain.com>
 <CAM_jms=9fvArhRJg1=Mvrxo3akp2m4NdNNHbHsZugMgeX=DNUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAiN7q-DLNCZ5p=LHk75owZcUF3pYN1AvmkAee_Y8S73ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Jim,

I can probably do this for you but I'm pretty busy for the moment. What's
your desired timeline? I've been using EAGLE since 2005 so I'm familiar.

=]

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 8:23 AM, Doug Ingraham via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> If this is a one off all you need to do is print the negatives on
> transparency material with a laser printer.
> The laser printers tend to have a little more opacity than ink jets do but
> I have done this with an ink jet
> printer as well.  I also once plotted directly on the bare copper with a
> sharpie and had it turn out ok.
>
> Align the negatives on the sensitized board stock.
> Expose.
> Develop.
> Etch.
> Drill
> Solder in your feed throughs.
> Put the parts on the board.
> Debug
>
> If on the other hand you want to make even 5 boards you would be better off
> with your approach.
>
> Best wishes!
>
> --
> Doug Ingraham
> PDP-8 SN 1175
>

From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Wed May 10 11:29:49 2017
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 13:29:49 -0300
Subject: Need help reproducing a PCB
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAiN7q-DLNCZ5p=LHk75owZcUF3pYN1AvmkAee_Y8S73ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8a0d896c-b107-e560-27fd-a903d48765b2@jbrain.com>
 <CAM_jms=9fvArhRJg1=Mvrxo3akp2m4NdNNHbHsZugMgeX=DNUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2mpAiN7q-DLNCZ5p=LHk75owZcUF3pYN1AvmkAee_Y8S73ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKQ_eGSBJAJvsuo9eyguk8JdKg+6thbdU+=a7eCo1T13TQ@mail.gmail.com>

Anders, mind sharing which method you use to redraw a PCB? I have lots of
interest in this subject.


2017-05-10 13:20 GMT-03:00 Anders Nelson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>:

> Hey Jim,
>
> I can probably do this for you but I'm pretty busy for the moment. What's
> your desired timeline? I've been using EAGLE since 2005 so I'm familiar.
>
> =]
>
> --
> Anders Nelson
>
> +1 (517) 775-6129
>
> www.erogear.com
>
> On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 8:23 AM, Doug Ingraham via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > If this is a one off all you need to do is print the negatives on
> > transparency material with a laser printer.
> > The laser printers tend to have a little more opacity than ink jets do
> but
> > I have done this with an ink jet
> > printer as well.  I also once plotted directly on the bare copper with a
> > sharpie and had it turn out ok.
> >
> > Align the negatives on the sensitized board stock.
> > Expose.
> > Develop.
> > Etch.
> > Drill
> > Solder in your feed throughs.
> > Put the parts on the board.
> > Debug
> >
> > If on the other hand you want to make even 5 boards you would be better
> off
> > with your approach.
> >
> > Best wishes!
> >
> > --
> > Doug Ingraham
> > PDP-8 SN 1175
> >
>

From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Wed May 10 11:33:34 2017
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 09:33:34 -0700
Subject: Need help reproducing a PCB
In-Reply-To: <CANdZFKQ_eGSBJAJvsuo9eyguk8JdKg+6thbdU+=a7eCo1T13TQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8a0d896c-b107-e560-27fd-a903d48765b2@jbrain.com>
 <CAM_jms=9fvArhRJg1=Mvrxo3akp2m4NdNNHbHsZugMgeX=DNUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2mpAiN7q-DLNCZ5p=LHk75owZcUF3pYN1AvmkAee_Y8S73ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANdZFKQ_eGSBJAJvsuo9eyguk8JdKg+6thbdU+=a7eCo1T13TQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAg=-RLzfN6myRi5rEk8cn6givCUDB7=3DpXZiit3KR1rQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Alex,

I haven't re-traced a PCB but I would probably do the same thing Jim is
suggesting - import a graphic into my CAD program and trace it over with
metal. EAGLE has lots of scripts available to import graphics, DXFs and do
other completely different things. You can also write your own!

I'll be able to try converting his scans to 2-color, then he can import
them using his scripts. I won't have tim to do the tracing with metal
though.

=]

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 9:29 AM, Alexandre Souza <
alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote:

> Anders, mind sharing which method you use to redraw a PCB? I have lots of
> interest in this subject.
>
>
> 2017-05-10 13:20 GMT-03:00 Anders Nelson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> >:
>
>> Hey Jim,
>>
>> I can probably do this for you but I'm pretty busy for the moment. What's
>> your desired timeline? I've been using EAGLE since 2005 so I'm familiar.
>>
>> =]
>>
>> --
>> Anders Nelson
>>
>> +1 (517) 775-6129
>>
>> www.erogear.com
>>
>> On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 8:23 AM, Doug Ingraham via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> > If this is a one off all you need to do is print the negatives on
>> > transparency material with a laser printer.
>> > The laser printers tend to have a little more opacity than ink jets do
>> but
>> > I have done this with an ink jet
>> > printer as well.  I also once plotted directly on the bare copper with a
>> > sharpie and had it turn out ok.
>> >
>> > Align the negatives on the sensitized board stock.
>> > Expose.
>> > Develop.
>> > Etch.
>> > Drill
>> > Solder in your feed throughs.
>> > Put the parts on the board.
>> > Debug
>> >
>> > If on the other hand you want to make even 5 boards you would be better
>> off
>> > with your approach.
>> >
>> > Best wishes!
>> >
>> > --
>> > Doug Ingraham
>> > PDP-8 SN 1175
>> >
>>
>
>

From tshoppa at wmata.com  Wed May 10 12:22:02 2017
From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 17:22:02 +0000
Subject: Model 33 wiring complexity
Message-ID: <BN6PR06MB3298FA3B16155F253732783CBAEC0@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

The Model 33's I bought back when I was a teenager, were all ex-Telex use and had exceedingly complicated wiring harnesses as well as built-in modems. They had paper tape readers and punches with various auto-start/auto-stop relay options.


The exceedingly complex wiring harnesses were to add various options. The wiring harnesses made the wiring of the unit look, literally, a thousand times more complex than it actually was.


In the end all I ever did was find the magnet wire, and the keyboard contact wire, for the main unit and the punch.


I usually also found a useful current loop supply in the base. Sometimes I would find bipolar relays and 20mA/60mA conversion supplies. I was a little surprised at some of the current loop supplies - some of them weighed 20 pounds and were obviously made for driving exceedingly long lines (open-circuit voltage way over 100VDC). Seemed odd these were in there considering the units had modems just a foot away from magnet and keyboard switch.


Tim N3QE


From brain at jbrain.com  Wed May 10 12:40:10 2017
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 12:40:10 -0500
Subject: Need help reproducing a PCB
In-Reply-To: <CAM_jms=9fvArhRJg1=Mvrxo3akp2m4NdNNHbHsZugMgeX=DNUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8a0d896c-b107-e560-27fd-a903d48765b2@jbrain.com>
 <CAM_jms=9fvArhRJg1=Mvrxo3akp2m4NdNNHbHsZugMgeX=DNUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <786287ed-1369-5686-4a64-ab672f8f3a8a@jbrain.com>

On 5/10/2017 10:23 AM, Doug Ingraham wrote:
> If this is a one off all you need to do is print the negatives
I think my main problem right now is getting true negatives.  The scans 
I took don't immediately yield sharp negatives, and so photo editing is 
needed to create that.

Once that happens, this (or other options) are very possible.


From brain at jbrain.com  Wed May 10 12:52:49 2017
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 12:52:49 -0500
Subject: Need help reproducing a PCB
In-Reply-To: <CANdZFKQ_eGSBJAJvsuo9eyguk8JdKg+6thbdU+=a7eCo1T13TQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8a0d896c-b107-e560-27fd-a903d48765b2@jbrain.com>
 <CAM_jms=9fvArhRJg1=Mvrxo3akp2m4NdNNHbHsZugMgeX=DNUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2mpAiN7q-DLNCZ5p=LHk75owZcUF3pYN1AvmkAee_Y8S73ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANdZFKQ_eGSBJAJvsuo9eyguk8JdKg+6thbdU+=a7eCo1T13TQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <da97d817-98f1-5479-aa9a-148bce858fdf@jbrain.com>

On 5/10/2017 11:29 AM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote:
> Anders, mind sharing which method you use to redraw a PCB? I have lots of
> interest in this subject.
I know the question was not directed at me, but since I am doing exactly 
this, I can offer my perspective.

  * I first scanned the files
  * Then, I reversed the back and cropped so both pics were the same
    size and orientation
  * I then used a photo manipulation app to create two "layers" and put
    the two images in a layer each
  * I then created a new layer and set the brush to small
  * I then created a schematic of the unit in EAGLE, putting all of the
    parts in the schematic in the general location as they were on the board
  * I the started tracing over the layers, turning on or off the top
    layer to see and trace the bottom layer.
  * Once I found two connections, I added the connection in EAGLE schematic
  * Repeat until all traces are covered with a brush stroke
  * I then had a really horrid looking schematic
  * The next step was to clean up the schematic
  * Next, I laid out the PCB according to the original, placing all of
    the parts in the same place.
  * Now, I intend to trace the metal into the PCB design.  I figure if
    there any discrepency, then I can fix the schematic and I will have
    more confidence that the design is correct.
  * The last step is to get a PCB manufactured, and see if the design
    still works.

Jim


From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Wed May 10 13:06:02 2017
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 19:06:02 +0100
Subject: Model 33 wiring complexity
In-Reply-To: <BN6PR06MB3298FA3B16155F253732783CBAEC0@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BN6PR06MB3298FA3B16155F253732783CBAEC0@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCzkM4RyO1w0-wv+h7FzrzqTGS0QoZtEmx-MpsXFY+qZOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I usually also found a useful current loop supply in the base. Sometimes I would find
> bipolar relays and 20mA/60mA conversion supplies. I was a little surprised at some
> of the current loop supplies - some of them weighed 20 pounds and were obviously
> made for driving exceedingly long lines (open-circuit voltage way over 100VDC).
> Seemed odd these were in there considering the units had modems just a foot
> away from magnet and keyboard switch.

Not necessarily for long lines.

Some teleprinters had the receiving magnet directly in the current loop. The
resistance of this was too small to limit the current to 20mA (or whatever) so
a series resistor was added.

Now the time constant of an LR series circuit is L/R. In other words a higher
resistor gives a shorter time constant. You get more rapid operation with a
higher voltage supply as you then have a higher resistance circuit.

-tony

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed May 10 13:22:41 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 14:22:41 -0400
Subject: Model 33 wiring complexity
In-Reply-To: <CAHkUCCzkM4RyO1w0-wv+h7FzrzqTGS0QoZtEmx-MpsXFY+qZOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BN6PR06MB3298FA3B16155F253732783CBAEC0@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAHkUCCzkM4RyO1w0-wv+h7FzrzqTGS0QoZtEmx-MpsXFY+qZOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0A01BFD6-D23A-45E0-AA60-E66293E8695B@comcast.net>


> On May 10, 2017, at 2:06 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> I usually also found a useful current loop supply in the base. Sometimes I would find
>> bipolar relays and 20mA/60mA conversion supplies. I was a little surprised at some
>> of the current loop supplies - some of them weighed 20 pounds and were obviously
>> made for driving exceedingly long lines (open-circuit voltage way over 100VDC).
>> Seemed odd these were in there considering the units had modems just a foot
>> away from magnet and keyboard switch.
> 
> Not necessarily for long lines.
> 
> Some teleprinters had the receiving magnet directly in the current loop. The
> resistance of this was too small to limit the current to 20mA (or whatever) so
> a series resistor was added.
> 
> Now the time constant of an LR series circuit is L/R. In other words a higher
> resistor gives a shorter time constant. You get more rapid operation with a
> higher voltage supply as you then have a higher resistance circuit.

I'd put it this way:  For teletypes, the receiver is predominantly an inductive load.  And it wants a fairly short rise time, so you pick the time constant you need, which gives you R, which in turn gives you the needed drive voltage.  And that works out to be a fairly high voltage in a lot of cases, especially with the older machines with 60 mA loop current.  The needed loop R is almost entirely the series R; the receiver coil adds very little to the total.

	paul



From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May 10 13:24:29 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 11:24:29 -0700
Subject: Model 33 wiring complexity
In-Reply-To: <BN6PR06MB3298FA3B16155F253732783CBAEC0@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BN6PR06MB3298FA3B16155F253732783CBAEC0@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <d0a7c3fb-4aaf-048f-5641-c1de5d23ddf8@sydex.com>

On 05/10/2017 10:22 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:
> The Model 33's I bought back when I was a teenager, were all ex-Telex
> use and had exceedingly complicated wiring harnesses as well as
> built-in modems. They had paper tape readers and punches with various
> auto-start/auto-stop relay options.

Wasn't Telex 5-level, not 7?  So they'd be Model 32s--or is my memory
faulty?

--Chuck

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed May 10 13:31:45 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 14:31:45 -0400
Subject: Model 33 wiring complexity
In-Reply-To: <d0a7c3fb-4aaf-048f-5641-c1de5d23ddf8@sydex.com>
References: <BN6PR06MB3298FA3B16155F253732783CBAEC0@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <d0a7c3fb-4aaf-048f-5641-c1de5d23ddf8@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <93B05264-E55A-4DC1-9B87-DD407BFE4E60@comcast.net>


> On May 10, 2017, at 2:24 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 05/10/2017 10:22 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:
>> The Model 33's I bought back when I was a teenager, were all ex-Telex
>> use and had exceedingly complicated wiring harnesses as well as
>> built-in modems. They had paper tape readers and punches with various
>> auto-start/auto-stop relay options.
> 
> Wasn't Telex 5-level, not 7?  So they'd be Model 32s--or is my memory
> faulty?

Classically, yes.  I wonder if ASCII was done at some point.  Also, teleprinter service generically comes in a number of flavors, including 6 bit codes (of many variants) for newspaper wire services.

	paul



From lproven at gmail.com  Wed May 10 13:40:33 2017
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 20:40:33 +0200
Subject: Locust 1-2-3
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEBRFbrrQpNx8=FNUt=hiUzHTZ=rPcDiA8ZnwQUOCPbSA@mail.gmail.com>

This came up recently due to a small coincidence. Does anyone remember
this early MS-DOS game for PC compatibles?

 It was designed to look exactly like the spreadsheet, so you could
play in the office, but you had to "shoot" falling numbers by doing
arithmetic...

It looked just like a mockup of 1-2-3 r2.01, the classic version.

>From very vague memory...

There was an answer line at the bottom. Numbers would trickle down the
current column. You had to add, subtract, multiply or divide and input
the correct answer. If you didn't, your mistakes piled up, like
incomplete lines in Tetris, giving you less room and so less time to
do the computation, until you died.

Then a new column began, I think. When all the columns were full of
figures, you'd died and had to start a new game.

It wasn't much of a game, but it was kinda fun, and it was a perfect
mockup of the spreadsheet, so it would pass casual over-the-shoulder
inspection.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed May 10 14:12:15 2017
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 15:12:15 -0400
Subject: Model 33 wiring complexity
In-Reply-To: <0A01BFD6-D23A-45E0-AA60-E66293E8695B@comcast.net>
References: <BN6PR06MB3298FA3B16155F253732783CBAEC0@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAHkUCCzkM4RyO1w0-wv+h7FzrzqTGS0QoZtEmx-MpsXFY+qZOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0A01BFD6-D23A-45E0-AA60-E66293E8695B@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=kiMuzuVa5qQ=f8dZvZM4z4=ywUoQyP4nsO4i-dFXJGg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> I'd put it this way:  For teletypes, the receiver is predominantly an inductive load.  And it wants a fairly short rise time, so you pick the time constant you need, which gives you R, which in turn gives you the needed drive voltage.  And that works out to be a fairly high voltage in a lot of cases, especially with the older machines with 60 mA loop current.  The needed loop R is almost entirely the series R; the receiver coil adds very little to the total.

I'm restoring a Model 19 teletype (5-level Baudot). The current loop
is 60mA, and uses 120VDC for the loop.  Typical of the class.

-ethan

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed May 10 14:20:13 2017
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 15:20:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
Message-ID: <20170510192013.E043918C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Guy Sotomayor Jr

    >>> We need to move our business and I have about a ton of
    >>> classic cimputer junk in the SFBA that need to go or get scrapped:

    >>> Symbolics 3645? (from Guy Sotomayer a few years back)
    >>> PDP 11

    > I stopped by and picked up some stuff from Peter today. ... He did
    > mention that he has to be out of his space by May 31st and anything
    > that isn't picked up will be scrapped.

    > I did take some pictures that I'll put up sometime tomorrow but what
    > Pete has on his list below seems pretty accurate.

WHat kind of -11, do you happen to recall?

I assume someone will have grabbed the 'Bolics machine... Hyper-desirable.

I do hope someone will be able to scoop up all this stuff. Even if all
you do it put it up on eBay, that's still better that having it go to
scrap!

	Noel

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Wed May 10 14:30:47 2017
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 12:30:47 -0700
Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
In-Reply-To: <20170510192013.E043918C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20170510192013.E043918C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <874C24F2-ED67-4180-A8A5-921D15EF7FF3@shiresoft.com>


> On May 10, 2017, at 12:20 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr
> 
>>>> We need to move our business and I have about a ton of
>>>> classic cimputer junk in the SFBA that need to go or get scrapped:
> 
>>>> Symbolics 3645? (from Guy Sotomayer a few years back)
>>>> PDP 11
> 
>> I stopped by and picked up some stuff from Peter today. ... He did
>> mention that he has to be out of his space by May 31st and anything
>> that isn't picked up will be scrapped.
> 
>> I did take some pictures that I'll put up sometime tomorrow but what
>> Pete has on his list below seems pretty accurate.
> 
> WHat kind of -11, do you happen to recall?

Some Q-bus machine.  It was just the LSI-11 style open enclosure.  I didn?t
look very closely at it.

> 
> I assume someone will have grabbed the 'Bolics machine... Hyper-desirable.

Yep.  Know him *really* well.  ;-)

You can see pics here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/150223282 at N04/albums

> 
> I do hope someone will be able to scoop up all this stuff. Even if all
> you do it put it up on eBay, that's still better that having it go to
> scrap!

I did my part!  ;-)

TTFN - Guy

From pcw at mesanet.com  Wed May 10 15:02:07 2017
From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 13:02:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
In-Reply-To: <874C24F2-ED67-4180-A8A5-921D15EF7FF3@shiresoft.com>
References: <20170510192013.E043918C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <874C24F2-ED67-4180-A8A5-921D15EF7FF3@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1705101259380.26843@freeby.mesanet.com>

On Wed, 10 May 2017, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:

> Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 12:30:47 -0700
> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Reply-To: Guy Sotomayor Jr <ggs at shiresoft.com>,
>     "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> To: Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,
>     "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
> 
>
>> On May 10, 2017, at 12:20 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr
>>
>>>>> We need to move our business and I have about a ton of
>>>>> classic cimputer junk in the SFBA that need to go or get scrapped:
>>
>>>>> Symbolics 3645? (from Guy Sotomayer a few years back)
>>>>> PDP 11
>>
>>> I stopped by and picked up some stuff from Peter today. ... He did
>>> mention that he has to be out of his space by May 31st and anything
>>> that isn't picked up will be scrapped.
>>
>>> I did take some pictures that I'll put up sometime tomorrow but what
>>> Pete has on his list below seems pretty accurate.
>>
>> WHat kind of -11, do you happen to recall?
>
> Some Q-bus machine.  It was just the LSI-11 style open enclosure.  I didn??t
> look very closely at it.

Theres small card cage with some random boards but there is one of those tall 
skinny cases that the older VAXstations came in that has an 11-23 or 5x 
something with a A-D card

Also the HP calculator is a 9825


>
>>
>> I assume someone will have grabbed the 'Bolics machine... Hyper-desirable.
>
> Yep.  Know him *really* well.  ;-)
>
> You can see pics here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/150223282 at N04/albums
>
>>
>> I do hope someone will be able to scoop up all this stuff. Even if all
>> you do it put it up on eBay, that's still better that having it go to
>> scrap!
>
> I did my part!  ;-)
>
> TTFN - Guy
>

Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.

From chd at chdickman.com  Wed May 10 15:12:01 2017
From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 16:12:01 -0400
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 of odd sort on epay
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLFaXoG9wYL7v=QKLOWbxK_ay5E8BhNStxSj15aU1VX6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a58ddf66-14a8-3161-7053-c6d143d294b4@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOwLFaXoG9wYL7v=QKLOWbxK_ay5E8BhNStxSj15aU1VX6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAq7DHr+JVVCjzOGTAukupHD9K9EP6h+W2H7GoJmO6+7VcgWDA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> A VT1300 is a VAXstation 3100 M30 KA42-A CPU in a BA42-A box but
> without the SCSI interface and internal hard disk shelf mounting
> hardware. It might also have different firmware than a standard VS3100
> M30. It is meant to net boot the X Window System server software. I
> have a VT1300 (and a couple of VXT2000) that I haven't powered on in a
> while.

Is the software for this still around someplace? I had it at one time,
but didn't have a monitor, keyboard or mouse. Now I have everything
but the software.

-chuck

From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Wed May 10 10:24:29 2017
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 11:24:29 -0400
Subject: SMS 8" Floppy Drive
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsWC+=AyAh4nw5LuBZKm3TWS1ymT5qKJBtC7OR_KtE0dvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsV-s2LA8LF=BG0cAYcVCmjRXogj22vooenG2oO8pY9TgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWokq61rdQOKT71eV5nf-YdrX-mz+-P+PtZkZLBsAz_Ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsUTj2yyJtsBzDxQArVUMm-d1OMaHD+bJ_y1a31C=52CkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXqAM5fZLSuTBEN2Hitbx81py0CirSu+t_FGtgEa7dhig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWZrhFbRevXAFC29Q7fPyDQp8YtNZZ18BUGKQOoUqGxNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXLwce=yL3qC5UAOYLgnD4PY7=kcWaatG6_DkyceiU86A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsU6OtTS0k0RZ8-=yi3QwrY+Jb01nRok1F0a+p9W_ZgAzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWC+=AyAh4nw5LuBZKm3TWS1ymT5qKJBtC7OR_KtE0dvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58a6c1b7-392d-e290-6c90-312bca7be2e8@comcast.net>

On 5/9/2017 3:05 PM, shadoooo via cctech wrote:
> Hello,
> I have a clone PDP11, including an SMS QBUS board and a 8" drive.
> Not sure if it's the same model as yours.
> The controller runs MSCP for floppy with RX02 or IBM format , and for an
> MFM hard disk like Seagate ST251.
> Board code is SMS FWD0106.
> I should have some manual and drivers for it somewhere, if you manage to
> find the board, but utilities like formatter aren't for VAX, IIRC.
>
> Andrea

The SMS documentation in bitsavers says the controller can be operated 
in two modes; compatible and extended.  In the compatible mode the SMS 
unit will work with the DEC DY driver, or so they say.  If that is true 
that would be good news since my disk drive hardware has only 2 floppies 
and no winchester disks.  However, it looks I would need the SMS 
diagnostics or FW driver in order to format RX02 media.

Nevertheless, if I do get it running and it is DEC RX02 compatible I 
would try to use it in the MicroVax just to see what happens....

Doug


From doyle at cox.net  Wed May 10 11:55:16 2017
From: doyle at cox.net (Rob Doyle)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 09:55:16 -0700
Subject: Key for Intel MDS-800
Message-ID: <10c29261-dc7a-eefe-c43f-c3b36a7a4dcc@cox.net>

Before I disassemble my MDS-800 -

Is there anyone who could copy a MDS-800 key for me?  I would cover 
expenses...

Rob Doyle

From drb at msu.edu  Wed May 10 16:13:34 2017
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 17:13:34 -0400
Subject: Key for Intel MDS-800
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 10 May 2017 09:55:16 -0700.)
 <10c29261-dc7a-eefe-c43f-c3b36a7a4dcc@cox.net>
References: <10c29261-dc7a-eefe-c43f-c3b36a7a4dcc@cox.net> 
Message-ID: <20170510211334.D203BA585C7@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > Is there anyone who could copy a MDS-800 key for me?  I would cover
 > expenses...

If someone has one, let's get it added to the ccmp keys list: blank
type, cut info, etc.

De

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed May 10 17:26:21 2017
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 15:26:21 -0700
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 of odd sort on epay
In-Reply-To: <CAAq7DHr+JVVCjzOGTAukupHD9K9EP6h+W2H7GoJmO6+7VcgWDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a58ddf66-14a8-3161-7053-c6d143d294b4@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOwLFaXoG9wYL7v=QKLOWbxK_ay5E8BhNStxSj15aU1VX6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAq7DHr+JVVCjzOGTAukupHD9K9EP6h+W2H7GoJmO6+7VcgWDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLTNsLuTASOEmU-oi4NboHnAV=U-NyMpG4rt3yK4=mhkA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 1:12 PM, Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com> wrote:
>
> Is the software for this still around someplace? I had it at one time,
> but didn't have a monitor, keyboard or mouse. Now I have everything
> but the software.
>
> -chuck

The VXT software is included in the InfoServer software which is
included the OpenVMS Freeware Distribution, V8, Disk1.

ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/FREEWARE80_1.ZIP

Inside the infoserver.zip file which is inside the infoserver directory:
ag-pjjhh-be.img - VTX Software V2.1 CD-ROM image


The current HP website makes it difficult to find OpenVMS freeware
packages. I wouldn't be surprised if these files vanished at some
point. Hope they are archived elsewhere.

From brain at jbrain.com  Wed May 10 19:06:20 2017
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 19:06:20 -0500
Subject: Need help reproducing a PCB
In-Reply-To: <1667439990.495531.1494457327729@email.1and1.com>
References: <8a0d896c-b107-e560-27fd-a903d48765b2@jbrain.com>
 <CAM_jms=9fvArhRJg1=Mvrxo3akp2m4NdNNHbHsZugMgeX=DNUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <786287ed-1369-5686-4a64-ab672f8f3a8a@jbrain.com>
 <1667439990.495531.1494457327729@email.1and1.com>
Message-ID: <1872cdcb-c6f6-7671-b9cf-123bc9e5fba2@jbrain.com>

On 5/10/2017 6:02 PM, wrcooke at wrcooke.net wrote:

In EAGLE I am having very good luck with:


  * Getting some nice B&W versions of the scans (Thanks everyone, but
    especially Paul)
  * importing them into EAGLE under layer 200 and 201 (reversing bottom
    layer)
  * setting layers to some light colors (pale yellow and pale green are
    my choices)
  * moving them so they line up (not perfect, but I tried)
  * Move all of the PCB footprints to match up with holes
  * Turn off top layer
  * start routing bottom layer (tedious, but not too hard)
  * repeat for top layer


A pic of progress:

https://s6.postimg.org/vkffvf8sh/Capture.png


-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com  
www.jbrain.com


From barythrin at gmail.com  Wed May 10 21:28:01 2017
From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 21:28:01 -0500
Subject: Key for Intel MDS-800
Message-ID: <5913cc35.79239d0a.dad79.10e7@mx.google.com>

Is this a thing? There's an archive of vintage physical computer keys? This would be very cool. Heck one could potentially even 3d print a key for short term usage.
-------- Original message --------From: Dennis Boone via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Date: 5/10/17  4:13 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Key for Intel MDS-800
If someone has one, let's get it added to the ccmp keys list: blank
type, cut info, etc.

De

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Wed May 10 22:15:17 2017
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 23:15:17 -0400
Subject: Key for Intel MDS-800
Message-ID: <98da3.4c195713.46453145@aol.com>

wonder if the is a same  key as the  intelect 8 uses.?
Ed#
 
 
 
In a message dated 5/10/2017 7:28:16 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

Is this  a thing? There's an archive of vintage physical computer keys? 
This would be  very cool. Heck one could potentially even 3d print a key for 
short term  usage.
-------- Original message --------From: Dennis Boone via cctalk  
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> Date: 5/10/17  4:13 PM  (GMT-06:00)  To: "General Discussion: 
On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Key for 
Intel MDS-800
If someone  has one, let's get it added to the ccmp keys list: blank
type, cut info,  etc.

De


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed May 10 23:17:31 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 21:17:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Key for Intel MDS-800
In-Reply-To: <5913cc35.79239d0a.dad79.10e7@mx.google.com>
References: <5913cc35.79239d0a.dad79.10e7@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705102116150.22324@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 10 May 2017, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote:
> Is this a thing? There's an archive of vintage physical computer keys? 
> This would be very cool. Heck one could potentially even 3d print a key 
> for short term usage.

Jay West was starting to collect some of that info.
There was a thread last year, first half of 2016:
Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed May 10 23:37:37 2017
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 21:37:37 -0700
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 of odd sort on epay
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLTNsLuTASOEmU-oi4NboHnAV=U-NyMpG4rt3yK4=mhkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a58ddf66-14a8-3161-7053-c6d143d294b4@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOwLFaXoG9wYL7v=QKLOWbxK_ay5E8BhNStxSj15aU1VX6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAq7DHr+JVVCjzOGTAukupHD9K9EP6h+W2H7GoJmO6+7VcgWDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwLTNsLuTASOEmU-oi4NboHnAV=U-NyMpG4rt3yK4=mhkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKFWGQCjWn7SZE4fBZ=oTRHpOHnVXZpHj4gY6MqDXbpHw@mail.gmail.com>

> The VXT software is included in the InfoServer software which is
> included the OpenVMS Freeware Distribution, V8, Disk1.
>
> ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/FREEWARE80_1.ZIP
>
> Inside the infoserver.zip file which is inside the infoserver directory:
> ag-pjjhh-be.img - VTX Software V2.1 CD-ROM image
>

Just to refresh my memory about the VXT software, I started a OpenVMS
session on a SIMH VAX and mounted the ag-pjjhh-be.img image as an
RRD40 CD-ROM to take a look at its contents.

It contains a saveset that you can install on an OpenVMS host using
VMSINSTAL, along with documentation in PostScript format. I converted
those documents into PDF files. I forget if I ever uploaded them
anywhere.

There are also files on the ag-pjjhh-be.img image that can be
installed on an InfoServer using UPDATE. If you do have an InfoServer
there are some things you can do with that that you can't do with the
OpenVMS host VXT software installation.


$ dir dua1:[vxt021...]*.*;* /columns=1

Directory DUA1:[VXT021]

KIT.DIR;1
LINE_DOCS.DIR;1
POST_DOCS.DIR;1

Total of 3 files.

Directory DUA1:[VXT021.KIT]

VXT021.A;1
VXT021.B;1
VXT021.C;1
VXT021.D;1
VXT021.E;1

Total of 5 files.

Directory DUA1:[VXT021.LINE_DOCS]

VXT021.RELEASE_NOTES;1

Total of 1 file.

Directory DUA1:[VXT021.POST_DOCS]

VXT021_RELEASE_NOTES.PS;1
VXT_GETTING_STARTED_DE.PS;1
VXT_GETTING_STARTED_EN.PS;1
VXT_GETTING_STARTED_ES.PS;1
VXT_GETTING_STARTED_FR.PS;1
VXT_GETTING_STARTED_IT.PS;1
VXT_GETTING_STARTED_NL.PS;1
VXT_SYSMAN_INSTALL_APPENDIX.PS;1
VXT_SYSMAN_INSTALL_DEC_OSF1_AXP.PS;1
VXT_SYSMAN_INSTALL_HP-UX.PS;1
VXT_SYSMAN_INSTALL_IBM_AIX.PS;1
VXT_SYSMAN_INSTALL_INDEX.PS;1
VXT_SYSMAN_INSTALL_INFOSERVER.PS;1
VXT_SYSMAN_INSTALL_OPENVMS.PS;1
VXT_SYSMAN_INSTALL_OVERVIEW.PS;1
VXT_SYSMAN_INSTALL_SCO_ODT.PS;1
VXT_SYSMAN_INSTALL_SUNOS.PS;1
VXT_SYSMAN_INSTALL_ULTRIX.PS;1
VXT_SYSMAN_INSTALL_USING_CONFIG_MANAGER.PS;1
VXT_USER_GUIDE.PS;1

Total of 20 files.

Grand total of 4 directories, 29 files.


$ dir DUA1:[SYSD.SYSEXE...]*.*;* /columns=1

Directory DUA1:[SYSD.SYSEXE]

ESS$VXT_V2.DAT;1
VXT.PWD;1
VXT021.SYS;1
VXTEX020A.SYS;1
VXTLDR021.SYS;1
VXT_G_.XRM;1
VXT_INFOREADER_021.LIBRARY;1
VXT_IR_GETTING_STARTED_DE_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_GETTING_STARTED_EN_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_GETTING_STARTED_ES_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_GETTING_STARTED_FR_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_GETTING_STARTED_IT_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_GETTING_STARTED_NL_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_INFOSERVER_OPS_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_SOFTWARE_RELNOTES_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_SYSMAN_APPENDIX_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_SYSMAN_CONFIGMAN_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_SYSMAN_HP_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_SYSMAN_IBM_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_SYSMAN_INFOSERVER_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_SYSMAN_OSF_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_SYSMAN_OVERVIEW_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_SYSMAN_SCO_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_SYSMAN_SUN_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_SYSMAN_ULTRIX_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_SYSMAN_VMS_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_USER_INFO_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_IR_USING_INFOREADER_021.DECW$BOOK;1
VXT_V2_1.FNT;1
VXT_VER_021.DAT;1

Total of 30 files.

From sellam.ismail at gmail.com  Thu May 11 00:38:04 2017
From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 22:38:04 -0700
Subject: PDP 11/73 and 11/34 CPUs for sale
Message-ID: <CAHJBWnRpgn=R4wyG6rnxD7bFb+3YhTGYcCid1boYu-mBMXwg6g@mail.gmail.com>

I have each a PDP 11/73 and PDP 11/34 CPU for sale.

Please see the respective links below for more details.

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57667-LLNL-LSI-11-Homebrew-system

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57668-Dec-pdp-11-73-cpu

Please reply to me directly via this e-mail address for quickest response.

Thank you!

Sellam

From sellam.ismail at gmail.com  Thu May 11 01:48:43 2017
From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 23:48:43 -0700
Subject: FOR SALE: Original Macintosh accessory kit
Message-ID: <CAHJBWnQyDTNRVpYGKruohXj6YAUPoJT9HCCBi7iHg2U68OUwKQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have for sale an original Macintosh accessory kit, complete.

For full details and photos, please kindly click on the link below.

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57671-Original-Macintosh-Accessory-Kit-w-Manual-System-Disks-Audio-Cassette-Brochures&p=459942#post459942

Please contact me via e-mail at this address for the quickest response.

Thank you!

Sellam

From sellam.ismail at gmail.com  Thu May 11 01:51:26 2017
From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 23:51:26 -0700
Subject: For Sale: Tandy 1400LT Portable, working/nice condition
Message-ID: <CAHJBWnQCGb6Jh763JtMtaTBTKcyYKF9H=8ag+yUXgfHOPbnwFA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all.

I have for sale a nice, working Tandy 1400LT DOS portable, in fine shape
and working order.

Please click the link below for full details and photos:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57669-Tandy-1400LT-DOS-Portable-works-great
!

Please contact me directly at this e-mail address for the quickest response.

Thanks!

Sellam

From sellam.ismail at gmail.com  Thu May 11 02:53:54 2017
From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 00:53:54 -0700
Subject: EH Research Labs Z-80 Microprocessor Analyzer
Message-ID: <CAHJBWnT3NyiOky6cRaKvz3rUCjHvmvXC+Wx+zDs8_X8F6ZDZPw@mail.gmail.com>

I am selling this quaint little Z-80 Microprocessor Analyzer.  Please see
full details at the link below.

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57673-EH-Research-Labs-Microprocessor-Data-Analyzer-w-Z-80-module&p=459946#post459946

Please e-mail me directly for fastest response.

Thanks!

Sellam

From tshoppa at wmata.com  Thu May 11 05:53:28 2017
From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 10:53:28 +0000
Subject: Hershey Fonts now 50 years old
Message-ID: <DM5PR06MB3307380EF690BB3FE6247540BAED0@DM5PR06MB3307.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

I grew up with X-Y scope displays, their associated electrostatic printers, and Calcomp pen plotters. To draw letters and symbols on these, we used Fortran libraries driven by data tables to make "Hershey Characters".


This year, the Hershey Font system and libraries turn 50 years old: https://books.google.com/books/about/Calligraphy_for_computers.html?id=qFFCAAAAIAAJ


A little more context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hershey_fonts


Happy Anniversary, Hershey!


The PLOT-10 Fortran vector graphics library was published in 1971 and will have its 50th anniversary in 2021: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102646117

102646117 - Computer History Museum<http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102646117>
www.computerhistory.org
Three color brochure of the Plot-10 software. The cover includes a date stamp and an image of two men using a terminal that displays the graphing system. The brochure ...




T<https://www.harrisgeospatial.com/docs/using_hershey_vector_fon.html>im N3QE





[https://books.google.com/books/content?id=qFFCAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&imgtk=AFLRE70wjFjsWmEzFdYFNQVuSYOgfJjC8XiC-7eLbS7WWWMwfzxMyy4jUV16Bcrm934YU9wScPGS9Eia6ihS9aID4ohqYN5gTB79wyooL5eFMMTRmR12Lpw]<https://books.google.com/books/about/Calligraphy_for_computers.html?id=qFFCAAAAIAAJ>

Calligraphy for computers - Google Books<https://books.google.com/books/about/Calligraphy_for_computers.html?id=qFFCAAAAIAAJ>
books.google.com
Consideration is given to the possibility of providing a computer and a cathode ray printer with an unlimited repertory of characters. Digitalizations are presented ...




From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu May 11 09:37:21 2017
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 07:37:21 -0700
Subject: Hershey Fonts now 50 years old
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR06MB3307380EF690BB3FE6247540BAED0@DM5PR06MB3307.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM5PR06MB3307380EF690BB3FE6247540BAED0@DM5PR06MB3307.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <3d76d97c-1355-321b-44ca-ad4b070e3ab3@bitsavers.org>

Max Mathews produced a set of three fonts at Bell Labs in 1967 as well.
"Three Fonts of Computer-drawn Letters"
The Journal of Typographic Research pp 345-356

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/visiblelanguage/pdf/V1N4_1967_E.pdf

which we have in the collection
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102675897

I read the cards about a month ago, I'll check when the data is going to be made available

On 5/11/17 3:53 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:
> I grew up with X-Y scope displays, their associated electrostatic printers, and Calcomp pen plotters. To draw letters and symbols on these, we used Fortran libraries driven by data tables to make "Hershey Characters".
> 





From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu May 11 09:45:43 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 10:45:43 -0400
Subject: Hershey Fonts now 50 years old
In-Reply-To: <3d76d97c-1355-321b-44ca-ad4b070e3ab3@bitsavers.org>
References: <DM5PR06MB3307380EF690BB3FE6247540BAED0@DM5PR06MB3307.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <3d76d97c-1355-321b-44ca-ad4b070e3ab3@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <B0BF6D6E-BF13-49BE-A4A9-0B1F05424A06@comcast.net>


> On May 11, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Max Mathews produced a set of three fonts at Bell Labs in 1967 as well.
> "Three Fonts of Computer-drawn Letters"
> The Journal of Typographic Research pp 345-356
> 
> https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/visiblelanguage/pdf/V1N4_1967_E.pdf
> 
> which we have in the collection
> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102675897
> 
> I read the cards about a month ago, I'll check when the data is going to be made available
> 
> On 5/11/17 3:53 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:
>> I grew up with X-Y scope displays, their associated electrostatic printers, and Calcomp pen plotters. To draw letters and symbols on these, we used Fortran libraries driven by data tables to make "Hershey Characters".

Computer drawn characters are older than that; a good example of vector drawn characters is the CDC 6600 console, from around 1964.  Or the plotter library documented in report MR 73 from the Mathematical Center in Amsterdam, April 1965.  Both are simpler letter shapes than in Hershey's document.

	paul


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu May 11 10:03:30 2017
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 08:03:30 -0700
Subject: Hershey Fonts now 50 years old
In-Reply-To: <B0BF6D6E-BF13-49BE-A4A9-0B1F05424A06@comcast.net>
References: <DM5PR06MB3307380EF690BB3FE6247540BAED0@DM5PR06MB3307.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <3d76d97c-1355-321b-44ca-ad4b070e3ab3@bitsavers.org>
 <B0BF6D6E-BF13-49BE-A4A9-0B1F05424A06@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <fdbbf0d2-3e96-cfdc-c661-18608491e9cc@bitsavers.org>



On 5/11/17 7:45 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> Computer drawn characters are older than that

going back to Whirlwind, et. al.

I don't think the point was a 'first' beyond the Hershey set being one of the earliest
generally available glyphs made available, and as such end up getting used in several widely
used graphing programs.



From Mark at Misty.com  Thu May 11 10:31:21 2017
From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 11:31:21 -0400
Subject: Morrow 8" disk image CP/M uploaded
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBucvW3Ppjbq8GFTEN2+s3Gq0h7jsK_TXatjvu-Et6zh7hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBucvW3Ppjbq8GFTEN2+s3Gq0h7jsK_TXatjvu-Et6zh7hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170511153121.GA1932@allie.home.misty.com>

Hi Bill,

On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 09:56:15PM -0400, william degnan via cctalk wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I was contacted though my site by someone looking for a boot disk for their
> California Computer System S-100 2200 computer with Morrow's Disk Jockey
> DJ/DMA floppy disk controller.  I checked and found what might be a
> suitable disk.
> 
> I imaged the disk and the file has been uploaded to my web site along with
> a PDF of the directory the original owner printed and inserted into the
> disk sleeve. Does anyone have such a drive controller and would like to
> take a look at this image to see if it's usable?  Uploaded, here:
> 
> http://vintagecomputer.net/disk_images/Morrow/
> 
> There may be something wrong with the disk.  The label reads
> 8" Morrow E14 Phil's System Disk Backup 9/22/86
> Permanent error on boot track
> 
> Despite what was printed on the lable I was able to image the disk without
> error.  I am hoping the error referred to in the hand-written label is not
> a physical error and can be edited/corrected.  Maybe this disk is
> salvageable, maybe the error is a BIOs thing.
> 
> There was talk about trying to find a diskJockey boot disk on this list a
> few weeks ago (right?), if so I hope this is useful.  If anyone attempts to
> read, let me know how it goes.
> 
> Bill

There are at least two different versions of this controller, with different
ROM decode addresses. It's non-trivial to modify the card -- not just a jumper
and PROM to change. The boot disk is specific to which version of the
card. I have the earlier version of the card with the BIOS at E000H, and
have been meaning to try the images from Herb's disks.

These cards are nice in that they include a serial port, so the provided 
CP/M boot disk and CBIOS will boot up to a functional enough system
to further configure for specific hardware, solving the chicken and
egg problem with CP/M BIOS and hardware configuration.

Newer versions of this card have BIOS at F800H, which Mike Loewen has
images for, which are probably good, for that version of the card.
It would be helpful if the person inquiring could determine which version
of the card they have.

When I was working on this, I found manuals for both versions on Bitsavers
(I think), which should have enough info to match up with the card:

0xE000 Morrow Disk Jockey 2D Floppy Controller Users Manual 1980 rev2.pdf
0xF800 Disk_Jockey_2_Model_B_Technical_Reference_Rev_1_Dec82.pdf

Please feel free to put the person inquiring in contact with me. I'd like
to get mine booting, and may be able to help them do similarly.

Mark

-- 
Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE

From Mark at Misty.com  Thu May 11 10:31:21 2017
From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 11:31:21 -0400
Subject: Morrow 8" disk image CP/M uploaded
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBucvW3Ppjbq8GFTEN2+s3Gq0h7jsK_TXatjvu-Et6zh7hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBucvW3Ppjbq8GFTEN2+s3Gq0h7jsK_TXatjvu-Et6zh7hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170511153121.GA1932@allie.home.misty.com>

Hi Bill,

On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 09:56:15PM -0400, william degnan via cctalk wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I was contacted though my site by someone looking for a boot disk for their
> California Computer System S-100 2200 computer with Morrow's Disk Jockey
> DJ/DMA floppy disk controller.  I checked and found what might be a
> suitable disk.
> 
> I imaged the disk and the file has been uploaded to my web site along with
> a PDF of the directory the original owner printed and inserted into the
> disk sleeve. Does anyone have such a drive controller and would like to
> take a look at this image to see if it's usable?  Uploaded, here:
> 
> http://vintagecomputer.net/disk_images/Morrow/
> 
> There may be something wrong with the disk.  The label reads
> 8" Morrow E14 Phil's System Disk Backup 9/22/86
> Permanent error on boot track
> 
> Despite what was printed on the lable I was able to image the disk without
> error.  I am hoping the error referred to in the hand-written label is not
> a physical error and can be edited/corrected.  Maybe this disk is
> salvageable, maybe the error is a BIOs thing.
> 
> There was talk about trying to find a diskJockey boot disk on this list a
> few weeks ago (right?), if so I hope this is useful.  If anyone attempts to
> read, let me know how it goes.
> 
> Bill

There are at least two different versions of this controller, with different
ROM decode addresses. It's non-trivial to modify the card -- not just a jumper
and PROM to change. The boot disk is specific to which version of the
card. I have the earlier version of the card with the BIOS at E000H, and
have been meaning to try the images from Herb's disks.

These cards are nice in that they include a serial port, so the provided 
CP/M boot disk and CBIOS will boot up to a functional enough system
to further configure for specific hardware, solving the chicken and
egg problem with CP/M BIOS and hardware configuration.

Newer versions of this card have BIOS at F800H, which Mike Loewen has
images for, which are probably good, for that version of the card.
It would be helpful if the person inquiring could determine which version
of the card they have.

When I was working on this, I found manuals for both versions on Bitsavers
(I think), which should have enough info to match up with the card:

0xE000 Morrow Disk Jockey 2D Floppy Controller Users Manual 1980 rev2.pdf
0xF800 Disk_Jockey_2_Model_B_Technical_Reference_Rev_1_Dec82.pdf

Please feel free to put the person inquiring in contact with me. I'd like
to get mine booting, and may be able to help them do similarly.

Mark

-- 
Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu May 11 10:50:26 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 08:50:26 -0700
Subject: Hershey Fonts now 50 years old
In-Reply-To: <B0BF6D6E-BF13-49BE-A4A9-0B1F05424A06@comcast.net>
References: <DM5PR06MB3307380EF690BB3FE6247540BAED0@DM5PR06MB3307.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <3d76d97c-1355-321b-44ca-ad4b070e3ab3@bitsavers.org>
 <B0BF6D6E-BF13-49BE-A4A9-0B1F05424A06@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <7c02da2e-a07a-b07e-caae-efa8909714f6@sydex.com>

On 05/11/2017 07:45 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

> Computer drawn characters are older than that; a good example of
> vector drawn characters is the CDC 6600 console, from around 1964.
> Or the plotter library documented in report MR 73 from the
> Mathematical Center in Amsterdam, April 1965.  Both are simpler
> letter shapes than in Hershey's document.

CDC, for a time, standardized on a variation of OCR-A for their
"official" correspondence typefont.  I used an Olivetti typewriter in my
office at CDC for just that--I hated the look of the stuff.

Eventually, the division equipped the secretaries with Selectrics and I
grabbed an IBM Executive (that with the prop spacing) with a "normal"
font for my own use.

I had the best-looking memos in the department.

--Chuck


From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May 11 11:49:07 2017
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 11:49:07 -0500
Subject: EH Research Labs Z-80 Microprocessor Analyzer
In-Reply-To: <CAHJBWnT3NyiOky6cRaKvz3rUCjHvmvXC+Wx+zDs8_X8F6ZDZPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHJBWnT3NyiOky6cRaKvz3rUCjHvmvXC+Wx+zDs8_X8F6ZDZPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <59149603.1010906@pico-systems.com>

On 05/11/2017 02:53 AM, Sellam Ismail via cctalk wrote:
> I am selling this quaint little Z-80 Microprocessor Analyzer.  Please see
> full details at the link below.
>
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57673-EH-Research-Labs-Microprocessor-Data-Analyzer-w-Z-80-module&p=459946#post459946
>
> Please e-mail me directly for fastest response.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sellam
>
Huh!  Never knew they got into this business.  I have a 
couple EH labs pulse generators.  I thought because of the 
application and the name (refers to electric and magnetic 
fields in microwave waveguides) that all their stuff was 
aimed at microwave/radar labs.

Jon

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu May 11 12:09:47 2017
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 13:09:47 -0400
Subject: Hershey Fonts now 50 years old
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR06MB3307380EF690BB3FE6247540BAED0@DM5PR06MB3307.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM5PR06MB3307380EF690BB3FE6247540BAED0@DM5PR06MB3307.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=M6agwPX=ffXE1_Z3-jUncyRfR15egGGXsz3Wc34UCCA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 6:53 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> I grew up with X-Y scope displays, their associated electrostatic printers, and Calcomp pen plotters. To draw letters and symbols on these, we used Fortran libraries driven by data tables to make "Hershey Characters".

I came along later and started with rasterized character displays
(40x25) before I got my hands on rasterized graphic displays (up to
320x200 in the early days), but I did occasionally get some time on a
PDP-8 with a Tektronix 4010 terminal, and always did like the look of
vectorized text.

> This year, the Hershey Font system and libraries turn 50 years old: https://books.google.com/books/about/Calligraphy_for_computers.html?id=qFFCAAAAIAAJ

Cool.

> A little more context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hershey_fonts
>
> Google Books https://books.google.com/books/about/Calligraphy_for_computers.html?id=qFFCAAAAIAAJ

Not remembering these by name, I went digging and found the original
1967 paper...

https://archive.org/details/hershey-calligraphy_for_computers

I'm astounded at how much effort went into rendering Japanese.

-ethan

From Mark at Misty.com  Thu May 11 12:15:39 2017
From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 13:15:39 -0400
Subject: Morrow 8" disk image CP/M uploaded
In-Reply-To: <20170511153121.GA1932@allie.home.misty.com>
References: <CABGJBucvW3Ppjbq8GFTEN2+s3Gq0h7jsK_TXatjvu-Et6zh7hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170511153121.GA1932@allie.home.misty.com>
Message-ID: <20170511171539.GA3276@allie.home.misty.com>

Hi,

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 11:31:21AM -0400, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote:
> Hi Bill,
> 
> On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 09:56:15PM -0400, william degnan via cctalk wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I was contacted though my site by someone looking for a boot disk for their
> > California Computer System S-100 2200 computer with Morrow's Disk Jockey
> > DJ/DMA floppy disk controller.  I checked and found what might be a
> > suitable disk.
> > 
> > I imaged the disk and the file has been uploaded to my web site along with
> > a PDF of the directory the original owner printed and inserted into the
> > disk sleeve. Does anyone have such a drive controller and would like to
> > take a look at this image to see if it's usable?  Uploaded, here:
> > 
> > http://vintagecomputer.net/disk_images/Morrow/
> > 
> > There may be something wrong with the disk.  The label reads
> > 8" Morrow E14 Phil's System Disk Backup 9/22/86
> > Permanent error on boot track
> > 
> > Despite what was printed on the lable I was able to image the disk without
> > error.  I am hoping the error referred to in the hand-written label is not
> > a physical error and can be edited/corrected.  Maybe this disk is
> > salvageable, maybe the error is a BIOs thing.
> > 
> > There was talk about trying to find a diskJockey boot disk on this list a
> > few weeks ago (right?), if so I hope this is useful.  If anyone attempts to
> > read, let me know how it goes.
> > 
> > Bill
> 
> There are at least two different versions of this controller, with different
> ROM decode addresses. It's non-trivial to modify the card -- not just a jumper
> and PROM to change. The boot disk is specific to which version of the
> card. I have the earlier version of the card with the BIOS at E000H, and
> have been meaning to try the images from Herb's disks.
> 
> These cards are nice in that they include a serial port, so the provided 
> CP/M boot disk and CBIOS will boot up to a functional enough system
> to further configure for specific hardware, solving the chicken and
> egg problem with CP/M BIOS and hardware configuration.
> 
> Newer versions of this card have BIOS at F800H, which Mike Loewen has
> images for, which are probably good, for that version of the card.
> It would be helpful if the person inquiring could determine which version
> of the card they have.
> 
> When I was working on this, I found manuals for both versions on Bitsavers
> (I think), which should have enough info to match up with the card:
> 
> 0xE000 Morrow Disk Jockey 2D Floppy Controller Users Manual 1980 rev2.pdf
> 0xF800 Disk_Jockey_2_Model_B_Technical_Reference_Rev_1_Dec82.pdf
> 
> Please feel free to put the person inquiring in contact with me. I'd like
> to get mine booting, and may be able to help them do similarly.

Sorry to follow up my own post, but I realized after I posted this
that the DJ/DMA is a different product than the DJ/2D models I incorrectly
responded about, so I don't have anything to offer here.

-- 
Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE

From Mark at Misty.com  Thu May 11 12:15:39 2017
From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 13:15:39 -0400
Subject: Morrow 8" disk image CP/M uploaded
In-Reply-To: <20170511153121.GA1932@allie.home.misty.com>
References: <CABGJBucvW3Ppjbq8GFTEN2+s3Gq0h7jsK_TXatjvu-Et6zh7hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170511153121.GA1932@allie.home.misty.com>
Message-ID: <20170511171539.GA3276@allie.home.misty.com>

Hi,

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 11:31:21AM -0400, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote:
> Hi Bill,
> 
> On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 09:56:15PM -0400, william degnan via cctalk wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I was contacted though my site by someone looking for a boot disk for their
> > California Computer System S-100 2200 computer with Morrow's Disk Jockey
> > DJ/DMA floppy disk controller.  I checked and found what might be a
> > suitable disk.
> > 
> > I imaged the disk and the file has been uploaded to my web site along with
> > a PDF of the directory the original owner printed and inserted into the
> > disk sleeve. Does anyone have such a drive controller and would like to
> > take a look at this image to see if it's usable?  Uploaded, here:
> > 
> > http://vintagecomputer.net/disk_images/Morrow/
> > 
> > There may be something wrong with the disk.  The label reads
> > 8" Morrow E14 Phil's System Disk Backup 9/22/86
> > Permanent error on boot track
> > 
> > Despite what was printed on the lable I was able to image the disk without
> > error.  I am hoping the error referred to in the hand-written label is not
> > a physical error and can be edited/corrected.  Maybe this disk is
> > salvageable, maybe the error is a BIOs thing.
> > 
> > There was talk about trying to find a diskJockey boot disk on this list a
> > few weeks ago (right?), if so I hope this is useful.  If anyone attempts to
> > read, let me know how it goes.
> > 
> > Bill
> 
> There are at least two different versions of this controller, with different
> ROM decode addresses. It's non-trivial to modify the card -- not just a jumper
> and PROM to change. The boot disk is specific to which version of the
> card. I have the earlier version of the card with the BIOS at E000H, and
> have been meaning to try the images from Herb's disks.
> 
> These cards are nice in that they include a serial port, so the provided 
> CP/M boot disk and CBIOS will boot up to a functional enough system
> to further configure for specific hardware, solving the chicken and
> egg problem with CP/M BIOS and hardware configuration.
> 
> Newer versions of this card have BIOS at F800H, which Mike Loewen has
> images for, which are probably good, for that version of the card.
> It would be helpful if the person inquiring could determine which version
> of the card they have.
> 
> When I was working on this, I found manuals for both versions on Bitsavers
> (I think), which should have enough info to match up with the card:
> 
> 0xE000 Morrow Disk Jockey 2D Floppy Controller Users Manual 1980 rev2.pdf
> 0xF800 Disk_Jockey_2_Model_B_Technical_Reference_Rev_1_Dec82.pdf
> 
> Please feel free to put the person inquiring in contact with me. I'd like
> to get mine booting, and may be able to help them do similarly.

Sorry to follow up my own post, but I realized after I posted this
that the DJ/DMA is a different product than the DJ/2D models I incorrectly
responded about, so I don't have anything to offer here.

-- 
Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Thu May 11 14:40:11 2017
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 15:40:11 -0400
Subject: Hershey Fonts now 50 years old
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR06MB3307380EF690BB3FE6247540BAED0@DM5PR06MB3307.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM5PR06MB3307380EF690BB3FE6247540BAED0@DM5PR06MB3307.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <FFFAA4D8-F613-46CC-8EF0-68965D679FB5@gmail.com>

My, these are beautiful! I didn't know the Gothic and Japanese and other elaborately rendered sets existed, thanks for posting. That's perfect  to try on my recently acquired HP 1345 vector screen or on my plotters! You learn something everyday on this list.
Marc 

On May 11, 2017, at 6:53 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

I grew up with X-Y scope displays, their associated electrostatic printers, and Calcomp pen plotters. To draw letters and symbols on these, we used Fortran libraries driven by data tables to make "Hershey Characters".


This year, the Hershey Font system and libraries turn 50 years old: https://books.google.com/books/about/Calligraphy_for_computers.html?id=qFFCAAAAIAAJ


A little more context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hershey_fonts


Happy Anniversary, Hershey!


The PLOT-10 Fortran vector graphics library was published in 1971 and will have its 50th anniversary in 2021: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102646117

102646117 - Computer History Museum<http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102646117>
www.computerhistory.org
Three color brochure of the Plot-10 software. The cover includes a date stamp and an image of two men using a terminal that displays the graphing system. The brochure ...




T<https://www.harrisgeospatial.com/docs/using_hershey_vector_fon.html>im N3QE





[https://books.google.com/books/content?id=qFFCAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&imgtk=AFLRE70wjFjsWmEzFdYFNQVuSYOgfJjC8XiC-7eLbS7WWWMwfzxMyy4jUV16Bcrm934YU9wScPGS9Eia6ihS9aID4ohqYN5gTB79wyooL5eFMMTRmR12Lpw]<https://books.google.com/books/about/Calligraphy_for_computers.html?id=qFFCAAAAIAAJ>

Calligraphy for computers - Google Books<https://books.google.com/books/about/Calligraphy_for_computers.html?id=qFFCAAAAIAAJ>
books.google.com
Consideration is given to the possibility of providing a computer and a cathode ray printer with an unlimited repertory of characters. Digitalizations are presented ...




From chd at chdickman.com  Thu May 11 21:08:42 2017
From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 22:08:42 -0400
Subject: Hershey Fonts now 50 years old
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR06MB3307380EF690BB3FE6247540BAED0@DM5PR06MB3307.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM5PR06MB3307380EF690BB3FE6247540BAED0@DM5PR06MB3307.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAAq7DHq7A3_OtfXife_6wkvwpMBSsh=Vp2Aor99tLCmcZM60Dg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 6:53 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> I grew up with X-Y scope displays, their associated electrostatic printers, and Calcomp pen plotters. To draw letters and symbols on these, we used Fortran libraries driven by data tables to make "Hershey Characters".
>
>
> This year, the Hershey Font system and libraries turn 50 years old: https://books.google.com/books/about/Calligraphy_for_computers.html?id=qFFCAAAAIAAJ
>

Interesting to see the history of these fonts. To my eye, nothing else
looks quite correct on a mechanical CAD drawing.

> T<https://www.harrisgeospatial.com/docs/using_hershey_vector_fon.html>im N3QE

Does anyone else recognize Font 6, Complex Roman in older Japanese
technical documentation. The 2 and 7 are distinctive are particularly
distinctive.

-chuck

From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com  Thu May 11 19:56:25 2017
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 19:56:25 -0500
Subject: Panel ID?
Message-ID: <06CCEB2E-D6B2-4553-9B7E-55CBF49B2A5B@gmail.com>

Can anyone ID what this panel is from? I picked it up recently for parts but the more I study it the more I suspect it may have been part of a computer system. At least one status light references 'No Write Ring'. The displays at the top are terrific, 7-segment incandescent units!

Photos at:
http://www.radar58.com/panel/

Thanks,
Cory



From allisonportable at gmail.com  Thu May 11 18:08:58 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 19:08:58 -0400
Subject: Morrow 8" disk image CP/M uploaded
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBucvW3Ppjbq8GFTEN2+s3Gq0h7jsK_TXatjvu-Et6zh7hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBucvW3Ppjbq8GFTEN2+s3Gq0h7jsK_TXatjvu-Et6zh7hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ed8d196-a562-7de1-502d-6cd855ca28cd@gmail.com>

On 05/09/2017 09:56 PM, william degnan via cctech wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I was contacted though my site by someone looking for a boot disk for their
> California Computer System S-100 2200 computer with Morrow's Disk Jockey
> DJ/DMA floppy disk controller.  I checked and found what might be a
> suitable disk.
>
> I imaged the disk and the file has been uploaded to my web site along with
> a PDF of the directory the original owner printed and inserted into the
> disk sleeve. Does anyone have such a drive controller and would like to
> take a look at this image to see if it's usable?  Uploaded, here:
>
> http://vintagecomputer.net/disk_images/Morrow/
>
> There may be something wrong with the disk.  The label reads
> 8" Morrow E14 Phil's System Disk Backup 9/22/86
> Permanent error on boot track
>
> Despite what was printed on the lable I was able to image the disk without
> error.  I am hoping the error referred to in the hand-written label is not
> a physical error and can be edited/corrected.  Maybe this disk is
> salvageable, maybe the error is a BIOs thing.
>
> There was talk about trying to find a diskJockey boot disk on this list a
> few weeks ago (right?), if so I hope this is useful.  If anyone attempts to
> read, let me know how it goes.
>
> Bill
>
As you have found out the system tracks (the first two tracks/cylinders)
on the media
are very system specific.  It can be perfect but wrong controller and it
will
not boot or it can even be the right controller but wrong serial ports
then it boots but can't communicate.

FYI the CCS system CPU board (IF CCS) has a good monitor on the board
and can do a fair amount of stuff.  IF he has the CCS IO board and disk
controller life is easier as the DISK controller carries the boot code.

bitsavers has manuals.

If one has the sorurce for bios building a bootable disk is not terrible
to do
by hand.  In that case the existing disk may be at least partially useful
as CP/M (CCP and BDOS) is universal and only the bios is system specific.


Allison

From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Fri May 12 00:52:09 2017
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 22:52:09 -0700
Subject: Panel ID?
In-Reply-To: <06CCEB2E-D6B2-4553-9B7E-55CBF49B2A5B@gmail.com>
References: <06CCEB2E-D6B2-4553-9B7E-55CBF49B2A5B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <23224567-9B30-4BAA-974B-58A548356779@shaw.ca>

On 2017-May-11, at 5:56 PM, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote:
> Can anyone ID what this panel is from? I picked it up recently for parts but the more I study it the more I suspect it may have been part of a computer system. At least one status light references 'No Write Ring'. The displays at the top are terrific, 7-segment incandescent units!
> 
> Photos at:
> http://www.radar58.com/panel/



"DATA ACQ. MODE" -  Data Acquisition.

"AZ MINUS"  and  "EL MINUS" suggest azimuth and elevation.
Either going negative might be out-of-range errors warranting the indicators.

Inertial navigation system test recorder control/interface? (testing gyroscopes).

Looks like mid-late 60s construction. 
Might find date codes on the decoder ICs on the 7-seg displays.


From jfehlinger at comcast.net  Fri May 12 00:02:09 2017
From: jfehlinger at comcast.net (JAMES FEHLINGER)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 01:02:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SimH IBM1130 GUI appears "fixed"
In-Reply-To: <1782826672.99027.1493953560090@connect.xfinity.com>
References: <251386307.46740.1493829684195@connect.xfinity.com>
 <884184385.69054.1493868690145@connect.xfinity.com>
 <1412510642.55078.1493908427115@connect.xfinity.com>
 <1782826672.99027.1493953560090@connect.xfinity.com>
Message-ID: <805021335.5798.1494565330259@connect.xfinity.com>

I've made little more progress in deciphering the operation
of Carl Claunch's "Lunar Landing" program, as featured in one
of his 1130 YouTube videos. (I'm guessing he's the actual author
of the program -- he mentions on one of his blogs that he was
interested in space before he became interested in computers.)

Recent (official) bug fixes to SimH have made it much easier
to input data to the 1130 console when the GUI is active
(you no longer need to type Return first, to unlock the
console keyboard).

I finally realized that responses to the console's
"ENTER ANGLE" and "ENTER VELOCITY" prompts can be
left-justified numbers, as long as they're
followed by a decimal point.  If you make a typing mistake,
it would seem that Backspace, <ctrl>H and <ctrl>U all
do the same thing -- erase the entire field.  The characters
already typed don't disappear, the cursor just goes to
the beginning of the next line.

The data switches mentioned in the introductory console message are
switch positions (on the GUI) counting (starting with 0) from the left,
not binary numbers.

"4 = SKIP TO PLOT OPTION" means "flip up switch #4" -- not,
in SimH terms, "deposit ces 4" which would turn on switch #13.
If switch #4 is turned on, "examine ces" gives (hex) 800.

The switches apparently really do what they're indicated as doing
in the introductory console message.  E.g., if you turn on
switch #1 (TRACE EVERY TENTH ITERATION), then columns of
numbers will appear on the lineprinter underneath
the headings HOUR MIN 'X' COORD. 'Y' COORD. etc.
These seem to show the progress of the flight, about every
(virtual) 18 minutes.

The ANGLE and VELOCITY values prompted for appear to be **initial
conditions** of a flight, so the reappearance of these
prompts on the console means that your trip has ended
and a new one is beginning (unless switch #6 is turned on,
in which case the program exits when the current flight
terminates).  This only slowly dawned on me -- at first I figured
the re-entered values were a means of steering the spaceship,
or something.

Fine-tuning a flight is apparently done by turning on switch #2
(ENTER MID-COURSE VELOCITY CORRECTION).  If this switch is
turned on, you get a new prompt on the console, something like

VELOCITY IS      27485. MPH, DIST. TO EARTH,      4058. MILES, AND      239034. MILES TO THE MOON
ENTER VELOCITY CORRECTION

and you type in something like, I don't know,
1000.
and the prompt is repeated with the new velocity and
recomputed distances.  And again, and so forth.

You only seem to get a graphical plot of your trajectory when the
flight has terminated.  Then you see PLOT DIAGRAM IS READY.
and the 1130 goes into a wait state.  When you continue from there,
you get the ENTER ANGLE prompt, etc.

The trajectory plot for a given flight doesn't seem to
appear on the lineprinter until the **succeeding** flight has
terminated.  The visible trajectory plot always seems to be one
flight behind the one just terminated.  I don't know what
that's about.

Also, the angle measurement described in the console instructions --
"ANGLE IS MEASURED COUNTER-CLOCKWISE FROM THE LINE BETWEEN THE EARTH
AND THE MOON" -- doesn't seem to match my trial and error.
If I give an angle of 0. and a very large value velocity (say, 100000.)
then the trajectory plot goes vertically straight up the page,
perpendicular to the line between the earth and the moon.
If I enter an angle of -90. and a similarly high speed, then
the trajectory goes straight toward the moon.  So I don't know
if the instruction message is 90 degrees off or if I'm missing something.
At least the "counterclockwise" part seems to be right.

I don't yet know what causes a flight to terminate, well before
it gets anywhere near the moon.  Maybe the idea is to try to get
a hole-in-one by picking perfect initial conditions.  Maybe the
flight automatically terminates when the ship is so off course that
the program decides the flight has failed.

I don't know what's supposed to happen if you actually manage
to get near the moon -- whether there's some sort of braking and
landing procedure in the program.

I am able to run the program using the DMS disk from
bitsavers configured for 32kw of memory, the 2501 card reader,
and the 1403 printer.  (I had to use the "viewdeck"
utility from ibm1130.org and some other things, like Cygwin 'dd',
to split up the original binary deck into two human-readable
pieces and one other component [the "ORBIT" subroutine]
that has to stay binary.  The main program can be made
human-readable, and that's where the Fortran logical unit
number for the printer is defined, and can be changed.)

I may finally give up and attempt to contact Claunch for hints about
how to use his (I presume it's his) program.  But I'm reluctant
to do so, partly because it's fun to try to figure it out myself,
and partly because I don't want to bother or embarrass him.
I know he's posted here in the past, though, so he may see
this anyway.

From tshoppa at wmata.com  Fri May 12 12:17:53 2017
From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 17:17:53 +0000
Subject: Panel ID?
Message-ID: <BN6PR06MB3298F8B0550073FA987D34F7BAE20@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Cory asks:
> http://www.radar58.com/panel/

I had always thought Transistor Electronics Corporation had something to do with CDC (both in Minneapolis) but CHM tells me I was wrong: it was a spin-off from Univac: http://www.computerhistory.org/brochures/companies.php?alpha=t-z&company=com-42bc22fbb9812

Tim.


From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Fri May 12 12:32:22 2017
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 10:32:22 -0700
Subject: Panel ID?
In-Reply-To: <BN6PR06MB3298F8B0550073FA987D34F7BAE20@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BN6PR06MB3298F8B0550073FA987D34F7BAE20@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <E7F40E9A-6957-4F35-B2EE-90CED019C261@shaw.ca>

On 2017-May-12, at 10:17 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:
> Cory asks:
>> http://www.radar58.com/panel/
> 
> I had always thought Transistor Electronics Corporation had something to do with CDC (both in Minneapolis) but CHM tells me I was wrong: it was a spin-off from Univac: http://www.computerhistory.org/brochures/companies.php?alpha=t-z&company=com-42bc22fbb9812

I'd have thought you were right: the transistors on the 7-seg display boards have "CDC" part # prefixes on them.
Perhaps they were acquired by CDC.

One of the pics in the brochure presents their displays in the CDC 3600 console.

From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com  Fri May 12 12:41:35 2017
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 12:41:35 -0500
Subject: Panel ID?
In-Reply-To: <BN6PR06MB3298F8B0550073FA987D34F7BAE20@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BN6PR06MB3298F8B0550073FA987D34F7BAE20@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAL9NafESck-DRH4sJnqPYFzBbSEU7HYtxUJyH_rirkX=-+hsqQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Cory asks:
> > http://www.radar58.com/panel/
>
> I had always thought Transistor Electronics Corporation had something to
> do with CDC (both in Minneapolis) but CHM tells me I was wrong: it was a
> spin-off from Univac: http://www.computerhistory.
> org/brochures/companies.php?alpha=t-z&company=com-42bc22fbb9812
>
> Tim.
>
> Thanks for digging that up, Tim. I have a real thing for controls and
displays; according to that brochure, TEC not only offered components, but
complete panels with legends and layout to the customer's spec.

The Univac connection makes some sense as this came from the estate of a
retired Univac engineer. Of course, CDC/RemRand lines get a little blurry
given CDC's start. -C

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Fri May 12 12:59:24 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 13:59:24 -0400
Subject: Identify Panel
Message-ID: <CABGJBufL20=KGx5wRqjFL7qrnv_B7g4+TQY-K=VemC3GZjecsg@mail.gmail.com>

>From what hardware is this panel ?

http://www.vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Temple/Manual-Automatic-Switch-Control.jpg
 CDC something?

Thanks

Bill

From carlclaunch51 at gmail.com  Fri May 12 13:07:18 2017
From: carlclaunch51 at gmail.com (Carl Claunch)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 11:07:18 -0700
Subject: SimH IBM1130 GUI appears "fixed"
Message-ID: <CABi7Mb7akNYfqM_qHXOd+9ZMVgUTXk9S-ANDN5wv3HP6L+BA5Q@mail.gmail.com>

>I've made little more progress in deciphering the operation
>of Carl Claunch's "Lunar Landing" program, as featured in one
>of his 1130 YouTube videos. (I'm guessing he's the actual author
>of the program -- he mentions on one of his blogs that he was
>interested in space before he became interested in computers.)

Alas, not my program. It was one of many programs distributed by Share to
1130 users, thus it was contributed by somebody.

Carl

From tshoppa at wmata.com  Fri May 12 14:03:39 2017
From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 19:03:39 +0000
Subject: Panel ID?
In-Reply-To: <CAL9NafESck-DRH4sJnqPYFzBbSEU7HYtxUJyH_rirkX=-+hsqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BN6PR06MB3298F8B0550073FA987D34F7BAE20@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAL9NafESck-DRH4sJnqPYFzBbSEU7HYtxUJyH_rirkX=-+hsqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN6PR06MB32985C90159B90083D434C23BAE20@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

More on Transistor Electronics Corporation:

1962 - http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Transister_Electronics/TECLITE.DataPanel.1964.102646294.pdf

Incadescent, Neon, and Nixie displays driven by transistors.

1968 - http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/tec/TEC_500_Series_Data-Screen_Terminal_System_Brochure_Dec68.pdf

Terminal with vector characters (CDC had those too but I don?t think related), and in addition custom incadescent illuminiators on either side. The keyboard just screams Tek4010 but return and shift are regular small keys (WTF?), and instead of the cursor wheels it has arrow keys. Not a storage CRT, you have to buy RAM appropriate to how many letters you might want up.

I remember seeing the Transistor Electronics Corporation industrial control panel modules in surplus stream decades ago, and I swear I?ve seen the non-backplane wire harness style in real life somewhere probably driving decimal digits.  But don?t think I?ve ever seen a TEC Terminal.

Tim.

From: Cory Heisterkamp [mailto:coryheisterkamp at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2017 1:42 PM
To: Shoppa, Tim <tshoppa at wmata.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Panel ID?



On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
Cory asks:
> http://www.radar58.com/panel/

I had always thought Transistor Electronics Corporation had something to do with CDC (both in Minneapolis) but CHM tells me I was wrong: it was a spin-off from Univac: http://www.computerhistory.org/brochures/companies.php?alpha=t-z&company=com-42bc22fbb9812

Tim.
Thanks for digging that up, Tim. I have a real thing for controls and displays; according to that brochure, TEC not only offered components, but complete panels with legends and layout to the customer's spec.

The Univac connection makes some sense as this came from the estate of a retired Univac engineer. Of course, CDC/RemRand lines get a little blurry given CDC's start. -C

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri May 12 14:33:50 2017
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 12:33:50 -0700
Subject: Wollongong HP 3000 TCP/IP
Message-ID: <a0df5d7a-58a0-b1b3-250c-7da8122b8e67@bitsavers.org>


Did someone on the list outbid me on these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/262963986628


From jfehlinger at comcast.net  Fri May 12 19:07:20 2017
From: jfehlinger at comcast.net (JAMES FEHLINGER)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 20:07:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SimH IBM1130 GUI appears "fixed"
In-Reply-To: <805021335.5798.1494565330259@connect.xfinity.com>
References: <251386307.46740.1493829684195@connect.xfinity.com>
 <884184385.69054.1493868690145@connect.xfinity.com>
 <1412510642.55078.1493908427115@connect.xfinity.com>
 <1782826672.99027.1493953560090@connect.xfinity.com>
 <805021335.5798.1494565330259@connect.xfinity.com>
Message-ID: <1427095309.41126.1494634041534@connect.xfinity.com>

Carl Claunch wrote:

> Alas, not my program. It was one of many programs distributed by Share to
> 1130 users, thus it was contributed by somebody.

Interesting.  Thanks for the reply.

I wrote, earlier:

> I don't yet know what causes a flight to terminate, well before
> it gets anywhere near the moon.  Maybe the idea is to try to get
> a hole-in-one by picking perfect initial conditions.

There were a bunch of text games called "Lunar Lander" that spun
off from an original written in 1969:
http://www.technologizer.com/2009/07/19/lunar-lander/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Lander_(video_game_series)

This 1130 game might very well have been a port (or an
attempt at a port) of one of those, I suppose, but
the games I looked at a few days ago (like the Jim Storer
PDP-8 one that started it all) seem to be about actually landing the LEM
on the moon and controlling the burn rate of the rocket fuel
during the descent, not launching something from a parking orbit
around earth and seeing where you'll end up.

I'm beginning to think, though, that maybe that's all this program
was ever about -- launching out of orbit and seeing where you'll end up
(with the option to alter your velocity along the way).
Maybe that's really all there is to it. In which case, it's
rather mis-named! (Or maybe it was simply never finished --
an abandoned project that was contributed "as-is".)

I don't see anything in the main program about a landing phase, and
it would be a very odd way to structure a program to stuff all
that in the ORBIT subprogram, I would think.

Not too many people would have had the kind of computer access
required to actually play a game like that on such a machine
back in those days (the days, indeed, of "One small step
for [a] man..." ;-> ), and an intensely interactive game
using the console, not even a teletype terminal, would have
been even more of an "abuse" of the resources of something
like an 1130.

The original Jim Storer PDP-8 version from '69, in Focal,
is available as source code. It's a remarkably short program:
http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~storer/LunarLander/LunarLander/LunarLanderListing.jpg

I have a PDP-8 simulator that runs Focal and makes
a very cat-unfriendly teletype sound when it's printing.
I've never run anything on it besides a Towers of Hanoi program;
this would be something else to try.

;->

From shumaker at att.net  Sat May 13 13:34:25 2017
From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker)
Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 11:34:25 -0700
Subject: Data I/O manuals FFS
Message-ID: <9aeb3f6b-4aa3-171b-9d1d-84bba441952e@att.net>

Saved some Data I/O manuals from the dumpster when a local firm tech 
pubs library closed down.   Manuals are loose sheet style in original 
Data I/O 3 ring binders.   Except as noted, they are lightly used in 
very good condition and appear to be complete.


29B Universal Programming System Operator's Manual  in the "horizontal" 
format binder  copyright 1985.    two available

GangPak Manual copyright 1987  one available

Unisite Universal Programmer User Manual  in "vertical" (standard) 
format binder.  binder in used condition documentation seems 
intact/complete.  Release date appears to be Jun 1995.  one available

Unisite Universal Programmer User Manual  in "vertical" (standard) 
format binder.  binder in good condition documentation seems 
intact/complete.  Release date appears to be Jul 1992.  This one has 
update notes and some misc product lit with it.  one available

Unisite Universal Programmer User Manual  in "vertical" (standard) 
format binder.  binder in used condition and is NOT an original Data I/O 
binder.   documentation seems intact/complete. Release date appears to 
be Oct 1996.  In addition to the basic User Manual, this one has User 
Notes covering 7 different releases ranging from 5.5 to 6.2.  one available

Programmable Logic Development System Operators Manual.  Binder in 
standard vertical format in good condition copyright 1986 with User 
Notes Update dated Nov 1987.  one available

Unisite-xpi Programming System User Manual (with legacy Unisite 
Programmers)   Binder in standard vertical format in good condition 
copyright Jun 2001.  two available

Logic Diagram Package dated Sep 1990.   Complete set of Dat I/O logic 
diagrams for all supported devices as of pub date.   Binder in standard 
vertical format in good condition copyright Sep 1990. one available.


Free for Shipping:  Individually, any binder will fit a medium flat rate 
box.  Email me off list to claim one.

FWIW, these have all been scanned if someone wants a soft copy.


steve





From jfehlinger at comcast.net  Sat May 13 13:32:24 2017
From: jfehlinger at comcast.net (JAMES FEHLINGER)
Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 14:32:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SimH IBM1130 GUI appears "fixed"
In-Reply-To: <1427095309.41126.1494634041534@connect.xfinity.com>
References: <251386307.46740.1493829684195@connect.xfinity.com>
 <884184385.69054.1493868690145@connect.xfinity.com>
 <1412510642.55078.1493908427115@connect.xfinity.com>
 <1782826672.99027.1493953560090@connect.xfinity.com>
 <805021335.5798.1494565330259@connect.xfinity.com>
 <1427095309.41126.1494634041534@connect.xfinity.com>
Message-ID: <2046306039.51535.1494700345983@connect.xfinity.com>

I wrote, above:

> The trajectory plot for a given flight doesn't seem to
> appear on the lineprinter until the **succeeding** flight has
> terminated.  The visible trajectory plot always seems to be one
> flight behind the one just terminated.  I don't know what
> that's about.

This turns out to be a subtle operational difference between
using the SimH 1130 and a real machine.

When the flight terminates, the console displays
PLOT DIAGRAM IS READY.
and the 1130 goes into a wait state (or SimH drops
back to its command prompt), in response to a Fortran
PAUSE statement in the main program.

If you were using a real machine, this would be a
chance to alter the data switches -- including, e.g.,
5 = REJECT PLOT.
in which case, when you continue, the plot data is **not**
dumped to the lineprinter (though the headings for
"TRACE EVERY TENTH ITERATION" are still printed, along
with the trace data if switch #1 is on).

But if switch #5 is off and you press PROGRAM START at
that point, by the time ENTER ANGLE shows up on the console
in preparation for the next flight, the plot diagram for
the last flight is already coming out on the lineprinter.
Which you can just walk over and see.

But if you're using SimH, then this PAUSE (while also giving
you a chance to alter data switches) is the **only** opportunity
you'll get to view the lineprinter output (either by clicking
the lineprinter icon in the GUI or by typing
detach prt, view "printer.txt", !del printer.txt, attach prt printer.txt
on the command line)  without forcibly stopping
the program (by clicking IMM STOP or by typing ^E in the console)
after it has cycled around to display the next ENTER ANGLE prompt
on the console.

The location of the PAUSE statement in the main program comes
immediately after "PLOT DIAGRAM IS READY." message is printed on the console,
but **before** the plot data is actually written to the lineprinter.

So if you do click the lineprinter icon in SimH when the program
pauses after the message, you won't see the plot diagram for the flight
that just ended, because it hasn't yet been sent to the lineprinter.
And if you click the lineprinter icon after you've continued
through the next flight and the program has once again paused after
"PLOT DIAGRAM IS READY.", then you'll only see the plot diagram
for the **previous** flight.

I "fixed" this, just to make things more convenient for SimH, by
commenting out the PAUSE statement on card LUNAR052 in the main program,
and inserting a new PAUSE statement just after card LUNAR084 (immediately
after the "DO 42" loop that writes the plot data out to the lineprinter).

Of course, on a **real** 1130, this "fix" would make it impossible
to avoid wasting time and paper if you decided you didn't need the plot for
the just-completed flight.

You can't have it both ways!


BTW, if you enter angle "-135." and velocity increment "5000." the plot
diagram shows that your ship loops once around the earth before heading
off into space.  It's also the case here that the program pauses
twice **before** pausing for "PLOT DIAGRAM IS READY.".
I was confused by this, but the instructions reveal what's going on:
"THE PROGRAM WILL PAUSE WITH  2222  DISPLAYED WHEN THE 'X' COMPONENT OF
VELOCITY APPROACHES ZERO..."  That happens at the right and left
extremities of the orbital loop.  If you turn on tracing (switch #1), you can
see the 'X' VELOC. changing sign and going through zero twice.

And sure enough, when the program pauses, the Accumulator (in the GUI)
shows

__ __ _2 __    __ __ _6 __    __ __ 10 __    __ __ 14 __
 0  1  2  3     4  5  6  7     8  9 10 11    12 14 14 15

i.e.,

0010  0010  0010  0010
   2     2     2     2

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sat May 13 21:57:52 2017
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 21:57:52 -0500
Subject: Dec name plate?
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20W-X4J__KKijiOWrJp=scpJUoM5ii4dHDMiUUHA306qQ@mail.gmail.com>

What's this name plate from quick Google doesn't find anything was found in
the pile of that smashed 8i in the mud

From imp at bsdimp.com  Sun May 14 10:37:10 2017
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 09:37:10 -0600
Subject: Dec name plate?
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs20W-X4J__KKijiOWrJp=scpJUoM5ii4dHDMiUUHA306qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs20W-X4J__KKijiOWrJp=scpJUoM5ii4dHDMiUUHA306qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrxUOkSg+4zzrieFLPGmCjP6FevVMm29zCQbVsiFkH-mw@mail.gmail.com>

I'd love to help with the ID, but need a picture to do so. Maybe the
list stripped the picture and you could post a pointer instead?

Warner

On Sat, May 13, 2017 at 8:57 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> What's this name plate from quick Google doesn't find anything was found in
> the pile of that smashed 8i in the mud

From fjkraan at xs4all.nl  Sun May 14 13:18:29 2017
From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 20:18:29 +0200
Subject: Data I/O manuals FFS (steve shumaker)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1494781200.57964.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1494781200.57964.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <ca0cc9c6-1a02-540e-8cf7-f807f2da7dd4@xs4all.nl>



On 14-05-17 19:00, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net>g wrote:

 > Saved some Data I/O manuals from the dumpster when a local firm tech
 > pubs library closed down.   Manuals are loose sheet style in original
 > Data I/O 3 ring binders.   Except as noted, they are lightly used in
 > very good condition and appear to be complete.

There is a yahoo group for Data I/O programmers; 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Data_IO_EPROM/info.

Greetings,

Fred Jan

From shumaker at att.net  Sun May 14 21:00:28 2017
From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 19:00:28 -0700
Subject: Data I/O manuals FFS (steve shumaker)
In-Reply-To: <ca0cc9c6-1a02-540e-8cf7-f807f2da7dd4@xs4all.nl>
References: <mailman.1.1494781200.57964.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <ca0cc9c6-1a02-540e-8cf7-f807f2da7dd4@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <9b159b7b-4eea-db79-11c8-447b683b9b8a@att.net>


On 5/14/2017 11:18 AM, Fred Jan Kraan via cctalk wrote:
>
>
> On 14-05-17 19:00, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net>g wrote:
>
> > Saved some Data I/O manuals from the dumpster when a local firm tech
> > pubs library closed down.   Manuals are loose sheet style in original
> > Data I/O 3 ring binders.   Except as noted, they are lightly used in
> > very good condition and appear to be complete.
>
> There is a yahoo group for Data I/O programmers; 
> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Data_IO_EPROM/info.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Fred Jan
>
thanks for the tip!   Most are spoken for but I'll go post a msg there 
for the rest.

Steve


From barythrin at yahoo.com  Mon May 15 00:04:37 2017
From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam O'nella)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 00:04:37 -0500
Subject: Identify Panel
Message-ID: <9po3qhifl4jkqwn60ocd5f2y.1494824677617@email.android.com>

Any story on where it came from that might help?
-------- Original message --------From: william degnan via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> Date: 5/12/17  12:59 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> Subject: Identify Panel 
From what hardware is this panel ?

http://www.vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2017/Temple/Manual-Automatic-Switch-Control.jpg
 CDC something?

Thanks

Bill

From lukas.ka at gmail.com  Mon May 15 02:52:37 2017
From: lukas.ka at gmail.com (Lukas Kaminski)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 09:52:37 +0200
Subject: DECSystem 3100 (broken) for free
Message-ID: <647f50a4-3e02-9e9e-7e84-bd7ca09d3267@sdf-eu.org>

Hello list,

does anybody need a broken MIPS-Server? The battery leaked and corroded 
the mainboard. I already cleaned it up, but it still didn't work... 
Maybe somebody can fix it or use it for spare parts.

(please contact me off list.)


romanis



From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon May 15 07:19:14 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 08:19:14 -0400
Subject: DEC RX01 drives available
Message-ID: <CABGJBucYa5CrjzD7oz7rsU1E5vPWCttykMzu2rdoV4-L5UqwrQ@mail.gmail.com>

Contact me off list if you're looking for an RX01 drive.  Will ship
worldwide.  Roughly 60 lbs in a 24x24x20 box so you can calc shipping
yourself.

I have one drive on Ebay now (SN 11-10407
<http://vintagecomputer.net/temp/rx01_11-10407_front.jpg>), looking to see
what the market price / discount price would be for these.  Condition is
"serviceable" I don't have the controllers to test.  ESR test of power caps
was good.  I would trade two drives for one working controller (UNIBUS).

Photos
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/temp/

Inquiries/Reasonable Offers
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm

Bill

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon May 15 09:46:51 2017
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 15:46:51 +0100
Subject: DECSystem 3100 (broken) for free
In-Reply-To: <647f50a4-3e02-9e9e-7e84-bd7ca09d3267@sdf-eu.org>
References: <647f50a4-3e02-9e9e-7e84-bd7ca09d3267@sdf-eu.org>
Message-ID: <20170515144655.092C94E6B2@mx2.ezwind.net>

You need to tell people where you are located.

Regards

Rob

Sent from my Windows 10 phone

From: Lukas Kaminski via cctalk
Sent: 15 May 2017 11:40
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: DECSystem 3100 (broken) for free

Hello list,

does anybody need a broken MIPS-Server? The battery leaked and corroded 
the mainboard. I already cleaned it up, but it still didn't work... 
Maybe somebody can fix it or use it for spare parts.

(please contact me off list.)


romanis




From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Mon May 15 17:04:58 2017
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 15:04:58 -0700
Subject: Wollongong HP 3000 TCP/IP
In-Reply-To: <a0df5d7a-58a0-b1b3-250c-7da8122b8e67@bitsavers.org>
References: <a0df5d7a-58a0-b1b3-250c-7da8122b8e67@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <35F66325-7CD5-4B05-B93C-2BC4DB98A33B@gmail.com>

Wow, nice find. I have bought from thus guy before, but this time it's not me...
Marc

Sent from my iPad

> On May 12, 2017, at 12:33 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Did someone on the list outbid me on these?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/262963986628
> 

From dave at 661.org  Mon May 15 23:18:08 2017
From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 04:18:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: xv and VMS
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1705160416250.14766@helios.feedle.net>


Is anyone out there using X11 on VMS and the xv image viewer?

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Tue May 16 01:25:17 2017
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 02:25:17 -0400
Subject: Wollongong HP 3000 TCP/IP
Message-ID: <2392c2.336b908a.464bf54d@aol.com>

the tcp for MPE5...
!
 
 
In a message dated 5/15/2017 3:05:09 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

Wow,  nice find. I have bought from thus guy before, but this time it's not 
 me...
Marc

Sent from my iPad

> On May 12, 2017, at 12:33  PM, Al Kossow via cctalk 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>  
> Did someone on the list outbid me on these?
> 
>  http://www.ebay.com/itm/262963986628
> 

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Tue May 16 05:06:12 2017
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 11:06:12 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: xv and VMS
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1705160416250.14766@helios.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <01QEENDP6R3Q0000G6@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> Is anyone out there using X11 on VMS and the xv image viewer?
>

Yes.  Why do you ask?

> -- 
> David Griffith
> dave at 661.org
>
> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
>

Still a great sig!

Regards,
Peter Coghlan

From rlloken at telus.net  Tue May 16 11:27:06 2017
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 10:27:06 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: xv and VMS
In-Reply-To: ATw5dk7s4oMa1ATw6dQJgZ
References: ATw5dk7s4oMa1ATw6dQJgZ
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1705161023590.24446@discord.bogons>

On Tue, 16 May 2017, David Griffith via cctalk wrote:

> Is anyone out there using X11 on VMS and the xv image viewer?

Yes, I am.  My Alphaserver 4100 is down at the moment since I had to move
it and it has been waiting four months for me to put it back together.

XV works fine with VMS and there are a bunch of patches to get some more
recent formats running on it but I could not resolve all the dependancies
when I last tried to compile them in.  I am now retired so maybe I will find
the time to get all that software glued together.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV         	  : "...underneath those tuques we wear,
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada       : our heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **         :    - Arthur Black

From spectre at floodgap.com  Tue May 16 11:37:49 2017
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 09:37:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: xv and VMS
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1705161023590.24446@discord.bogons> from Richard
 Loken via cctalk at "May 16, 17 10:27:06 am"
Message-ID: <201705161637.v4GGbndr4718716@floodgap.com>

> I am now retired so maybe I will find
> the time to get all that software glued together.

Retirement as an attempt to gain more free time just doesn't work.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Stop repeat offenders. Don't re-elect them! --------------------------------

From rlloken at telus.net  Tue May 16 11:43:43 2017
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 10:43:43 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: xv and VMS
In-Reply-To: AfTqd3hOHqk43AfTsdQkZl
References: AfTqd3hOHqk43AfTsdQkZl
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1705161043180.24446@discord.bogons>

On Tue, 16 May 2017, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> Retirement as an attempt to gain more free time just doesn't work.

I have already learned that in only four months.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV         	  : "...underneath those tuques we wear,
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada       : our heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **         :    - Arthur Black

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Tue May 16 14:27:59 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 19:27:59 +0000
Subject: xv and VMS
In-Reply-To: <201705161637.v4GGbndr4718716@floodgap.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1705161023590.24446@discord.bogons> from Richard
 Loken via cctalk at "May 16, 17 10:27:06
 am",<201705161637.v4GGbndr4718716@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB130225A88457F9EC4CFDBBE0EDE60@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


I'll second that.

bill

________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Cameron Kaiser via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 12:37 PM
To: rlloken at telus.net; cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: xv and VMS

> I am now retired so maybe I will find
> the time to get all that software glued together.

Retirement as an attempt to gain more free time just doesn't work.

--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Stop repeat offenders. Don't re-elect them! --------------------------------

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue May 16 16:16:12 2017
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 16:16:12 -0500
Subject: xv and VMS
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB130225A88457F9EC4CFDBBE0EDE60@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1705161023590.24446@discord.bogons> from Richard
 Loken via cctalk at "May 16, 17 10:27:06 am",
 <201705161637.v4GGbndr4718716@floodgap.com>
 <BN3PR01MB130225A88457F9EC4CFDBBE0EDE60@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <001d01d2ce89$a58676e0$f09364a0$@classiccmp.org>

3rd

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill
Gunshannon via cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 2:28 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: xv and VMS


I'll second that.

bill

________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Cameron Kaiser via
cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 12:37 PM
To: rlloken at telus.net; cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: xv and VMS

> I am now retired so maybe I will find
> the time to get all that software glued together.

Retirement as an attempt to gain more free time just doesn't work.

--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/
--
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com *
ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Stop repeat offenders. Don't re-elect them!
--------------------------------



From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Tue May 16 16:39:34 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 21:39:34 +0000
Subject: xv and VMS
In-Reply-To: <001d01d2ce89$a58676e0$f09364a0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1705161023590.24446@discord.bogons> from Richard
 Loken via cctalk at "May 16, 17 10:27:06
 am",<201705161637.v4GGbndr4718716@floodgap.com>
 <BN3PR01MB130225A88457F9EC4CFDBBE0EDE60@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>,
 <001d01d2ce89$a58676e0$f09364a0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB1302D439424FD049ADA808EAEDE60@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


The motion carries.


bill

________________________________________
From: Jay West [jwest at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 5:16 PM
To: 'Bill Gunshannon'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: RE: xv and VMS

3rd

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill
Gunshannon via cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 2:28 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: xv and VMS


I'll second that.

bill

________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Cameron Kaiser via
cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 12:37 PM
To: rlloken at telus.net; cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: xv and VMS

> I am now retired so maybe I will find
> the time to get all that software glued together.

Retirement as an attempt to gain more free time just doesn't work.

--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/
--
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com *
ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Stop repeat offenders. Don't re-elect them!
--------------------------------



From cclist at sydex.com  Tue May 16 16:40:22 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 14:40:22 -0700
Subject: Old Soviet PDP-11-type DVK-3 computers available
Message-ID: <eeebb75c-5235-b284-e18f-ceed4ada171f@sydex.com>

I received the following email from Michael Veselov.  Please address
your inquiries directly to him at mihail.veselov at gmail.com:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello!

We have 3 old Russian computers ???-3 and we want to sell them. There
are photos here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByRamH3wFb6SYU1kclZQNWxkQUU
Is it interesting for you?

--
With best regards,
Michael

From silent700 at gmail.com  Tue May 16 17:01:13 2017
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 17:01:13 -0500
Subject: Old Soviet PDP-11-type DVK-3 computers available
In-Reply-To: <eeebb75c-5235-b284-e18f-ceed4ada171f@sydex.com>
References: <eeebb75c-5235-b284-e18f-ceed4ada171f@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SF00geWk9LQet1e+UO1R1mLj3qrpUjcKYZX-woDFhUH2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 4:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> I received the following email from Michael Veselov.  Please address
> your inquiries directly to him at mihail.veselov at gmail.com:

Seems quite a few of us did.  The machines are very interesting
(PDP-11 clones from Elektronika), however they are also in Moscow.

Anyone got a boat?

From brain at jbrain.com  Tue May 16 18:14:08 2017
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 18:14:08 -0500
Subject: On Topic?: Hamvention
Message-ID: <daa07a52-d96d-6459-249f-8372f0713a3c@jbrain.com>

Is anyone going to Hamvention this weekend?

I am trying to finalize trip details, and wondering if anyone else is 
going (or lives near there)

Was considering taking an RV, but still considering options.

Jim

-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com


From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Tue May 16 18:38:55 2017
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 16:38:55 -0700
Subject: xv and VMS
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB1302D439424FD049ADA808EAEDE60@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1705161023590.24446@discord.bogons>
 <201705161637.v4GGbndr4718716@floodgap.com>
 <BN3PR01MB130225A88457F9EC4CFDBBE0EDE60@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <001d01d2ce89$a58676e0$f09364a0$@classiccmp.org>
 <BN3PR01MB1302D439424FD049ADA808EAEDE60@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <C5F5BB86-AD54-4EED-B131-FD47A52761F9@orthanc.ca>

> The motion carries.
> 
> Retirement as an attempt to gain more free time just doesn't work.

You people obviously don't know Richard.  He will hrumph and blunderbuss his way through local space-time until reality bends to his requirements.

Also, the word "free" is never a descriptor of "time" in his universe.

I keenly look forward to the sheer anarchy he will inflict on the countryside now that he is no longer constrained by a (very) petty bureaucracy :-)


--lyndon  (who had the joy of working with Mr. Grumpy Bastard for a few years, long ago and far far away)


P.S.  He's also the only person on the planet I would (and did) entrust my Drake Twins with (speaking of Classic Hardware!).

P.P.S.  Maybe now he'll have time to fire them up and get on the air again ;-)

From ben at bensinclair.com  Tue May 16 19:11:12 2017
From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 19:11:12 -0500
Subject: On Topic?: Hamvention
In-Reply-To: <daa07a52-d96d-6459-249f-8372f0713a3c@jbrain.com>
References: <daa07a52-d96d-6459-249f-8372f0713a3c@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <CAM6XJC=fiA0f-+SweHT-fiFd2EVCNFsfa=G5kC5R5Ursaq1zvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 6:14 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

> Is anyone going to Hamvention this weekend?
>

I'll be there, for the first time! I don't know what to expect with the
flea market, but am hoping there may be some computing things available.
I've found a few treasures at other hamfests in the past.

-- 
Ben Sinclair
ben at bensinclair.com

From dave at 661.org  Tue May 16 19:30:53 2017
From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 00:30:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: xv and VMS
In-Reply-To: <01QEENDP6R3Q0000G6@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <01QEENDP6R3Q0000G6@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1705170022100.18197@helios.feedle.net>

On Tue, 16 May 2017, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:

>> Is anyone out there using X11 on VMS and the xv image viewer?
>
> Yes.  Why do you ask?

I ask because I've been scraping together patches for xv and collecting 
them into a Github repo[1].  I've finished adding all the patches 
collected by Greg Roelofs, patches from OpenBSD, and now I'm working on 
eliminating unsafe calls like strcpy() and sprintf().  Could I get some of 
you VMS people to check out my work and submit any necessary changes?

My overall goal here is to clean up assorted bitrot and somehow convince 
John Bradley to loosen the license.  I believe that I have the most 
up-to-date codebase of xv available at the moment.

[1] https://github.com/DavidGriffith/xv

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From jsw at ieee.org  Tue May 16 21:00:43 2017
From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 21:00:43 -0500
Subject: On Topic?: Hamvention
In-Reply-To: <CAM6XJC=fiA0f-+SweHT-fiFd2EVCNFsfa=G5kC5R5Ursaq1zvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <daa07a52-d96d-6459-249f-8372f0713a3c@jbrain.com>
 <CAM6XJC=fiA0f-+SweHT-fiFd2EVCNFsfa=G5kC5R5Ursaq1zvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6A881043-A9FB-445D-B0EE-0036A30A8DF0@ieee.org>


> On May 16, 2017, at 7:11 PM, Ben Sinclair via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 6:14 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> wrote:
> 
>> Is anyone going to Hamvention this weekend?
>> 
> 
> I'll be there, for the first time! I don't know what to expect with the
> flea market, but am hoping there may be some computing things available.
> I've found a few treasures at other hamfests in the past.
> 
> -- 
> Ben Sinclair
> ben at bensinclair.com


I?ll be there as well.   

I?ve picked up a vintage computing items at Dayton, though they seem scarcer ever year.
May the new site will bring out some vendors who had their fill with Hara?s dodgy facilities.
I for one hope for better food and no rain.

Jerry - WB9MRI
jsw at ieee.org




From tshoppa at wmata.com  Tue May 16 22:47:45 2017
From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 03:47:45 +0000
Subject: Ethernet 1973/1974
Message-ID: <BN6PR06MB32986DBE449286EFD812F787BAE70@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Al just recently put this up on Bitsavers, November 1974 drawings for the first 2.94MHz Ethernet transceiver: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/alto/ethernet/Ethernet_Transceiver_Electrical_Characteristics.pdf


Neat to see the 15 pin AUI to Thicknet transceiver (well, a lower bandwidth version of the 10MHz ones I grew up with) drawn out so clearly. Also shows something I've never seen in real life, an "Ethernet Dummy Transceiver" which is, I guess, something like a two-port DELNI ? (obviously showing my DEC introduction to AUI Ethernet there.)


Tim


From rlloken at telus.net  Tue May 16 23:03:05 2017
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 22:03:05 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: xv and VMS
In-Reply-To: Amrkdrxt2oMa1AmrldWag9
References: <01QEENDP6R3Q0000G6@beyondthepale.ie> Amrkdrxt2oMa1AmrldWag9
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1705162157540.24446@discord.bogons>

On Wed, 17 May 2017, David Griffith via cctalk wrote:

> I ask because I've been scraping together patches for xv and collecting them 
> into a Github repo[1].  I've finished adding all the patches collected by 
> Greg Roelofs, patches from OpenBSD, and now I'm working on eliminating unsafe 
> calls like strcpy() and sprintf().  Could I get some of you VMS people to 
> check out my work and submit any necessary changes?

Well!  That is a horse of a differant colour!

I will be glad to let you do the work instead of me and I will be glad 
compile it and run it and submit bug reports etc.  This is work worth
doing IMHO.

I also have a long neglected plan to port the heirloom troff/nroff code
over to VMS just because I am too lazy to switch to Digital Standard Runoff.

No matter what the platform, of all the image viewers/editors out there,
XV is the viewer I love the best!!!!!!

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV         	  : "...underneath those tuques we wear,
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada       : our heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **         :    - Arthur Black

From sellam.ismail at gmail.com  Tue May 16 20:27:51 2017
From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 18:27:51 -0700
Subject: PDP 11/03 for sale (re-post with corrections, updates)
Message-ID: <CAHJBWnT=NABJ-grWZ9snGTjafV_s5UbPNn80pOssnN+X0a99Nw@mail.gmail.com>

I posted for sale last week a "LSI 11" system which I've since had help
properly identifying as an 11/03.  I never called it an 11/34 but my
photobin indicated it was, and some people were confused, so my apologies.

The updated information is in the replies to the original ad (link below),
along with photos of the whole unit, which I neglected to include
originally:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57667-LLNL-LSI-11-Homebrew-system

Also, I have decided upon a $200 asking price, or your best offer.

I will also be replying to those who have already contacted me about this
system.

Thanks!

Sellam

From sellam.ismail at gmail.com  Tue May 16 22:16:51 2017
From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 20:16:51 -0700
Subject: For Sale: Commodore PET 4032-12
Message-ID: <CAHJBWnQeXspqLP6Pej=Qj1VJdminkt-Xm_WfhikV87Rf3NLwBA@mail.gmail.com>

I have for sale a very nice condition (inside and out), working Commodore
PET 4032 for sale.  Details and photos here:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57791-Commodore-PET-4032-12&p=460843#post460843

Thanks!

Sellam

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed May 17 08:20:47 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 09:20:47 -0400
Subject: Ethernet 1973/1974
In-Reply-To: <BN6PR06MB32986DBE449286EFD812F787BAE70@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BN6PR06MB32986DBE449286EFD812F787BAE70@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <4E53D8A6-3748-49E0-8EC4-082CACADE573@comcast.net>


> On May 16, 2017, at 11:47 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Al just recently put this up on Bitsavers, November 1974 drawings for the first 2.94MHz Ethernet transceiver: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/alto/ethernet/Ethernet_Transceiver_Electrical_Characteristics.pdf
> 
> 
> Neat to see the 15 pin AUI to Thicknet transceiver (well, a lower bandwidth version of the 10MHz ones I grew up with) drawn out so clearly. Also shows something I've never seen in real life, an "Ethernet Dummy Transceiver" which is, I guess, something like a two-port DELNI ? (obviously showing my DEC introduction to AUI Ethernet there.)

It seems that way.  One interesting aspect in this design, if I read it correctly, is that there isn't a "collision detect" function in the transceiver the way there is in the 10 Mb D/I/X Ethernet.  Instead, the transceiver delivers "TRDATA" (received data) and "TROTHER" which is the XOR of received and transmit data.  So it looks like TROTHER != 0 means collision.  In the later Ethernet, collision is detected in the transceiver and signaled to the NIC with a signal that's stretched out as needed.  For example, in the DELNI schematics (also on Bitsavers) you can see a state machine to do that -- unlike the combinatorial logic in this "dummy transceiver".  I wonder how it was done in the 10Base5 transceivers; I have a vague memory that it's partly an analog process but that may be confusion.  (I may be mixed up with the "packet voltmeter" -- an A/D project at DEC to build a device that would make a map of a coax segment by measuring the voltages of each station's packets using sensors at both cable ends.)

	paul



From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Wed May 17 09:10:51 2017
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 10:10:51 -0400
Subject: On Topic?: Hamvention
In-Reply-To: <6A881043-A9FB-445D-B0EE-0036A30A8DF0@ieee.org>
References: <daa07a52-d96d-6459-249f-8372f0713a3c@jbrain.com>
 <CAM6XJC=fiA0f-+SweHT-fiFd2EVCNFsfa=G5kC5R5Ursaq1zvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6A881043-A9FB-445D-B0EE-0036A30A8DF0@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <685df6e9-64e6-023a-8b0e-2db5c4f826b9@comcast.net>

On 5/16/2017 10:00 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote:
>> On May 16, 2017, at 7:11 PM, Ben Sinclair via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 6:14 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
>>> wrote:
>>> Is anyone going to Hamvention this weekend?
>>>
>> I'll be there, for the first time! I don't know what to expect with the
>> flea market, but am hoping there may be some computing things available.
>> I've found a few treasures at other hamfests in the past.
>>
>> -- 
>> Ben Sinclair
>> ben at bensinclair.com
>
> I?ll be there as well.
>
> I?ve picked up a vintage computing items at Dayton, though they seem scarcer ever year.
> May the new site will bring out some vendors who had their fill with Hara?s dodgy facilities.
> I for one hope for better food and no rain.
>
> Jerry - WB9MRI
> jsw at ieee.org
>
>
>
I'll be there also, you can't miss me.  I'm the old guy picking over the 
computer junk in the tailgating area.  Hope it doesn't rain.

I am very curious to see what the new venue looks like, parking etc.

Doug - KB3TFW



From bigral at hotmail.com  Wed May 17 10:24:18 2017
From: bigral at hotmail.com (Andriy Romanenko)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 15:24:18 +0000
Subject: Old Soviet PDP-11-type DVK-3 computers available
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SF00geWk9LQet1e+UO1R1mLj3qrpUjcKYZX-woDFhUH2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <eeebb75c-5235-b284-e18f-ceed4ada171f@sydex.com>,
 <CAEfH1SF00geWk9LQet1e+UO1R1mLj3qrpUjcKYZX-woDFhUH2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <VI1P195MB00309C5FCC5A888143B6E1A6DCE70@VI1P195MB0030.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

For those interested, DVK CPU boards are available. These boards incorporate CPU+SLU+ROM+RAM+extra. Also, available corresponding metric-QBUS (AKA MPI-bus) connectors. MPI-bus electrically compatible with QBUS, so it's possible to extend original QBUS backplane with 1 MPI-type connector and use all available QBUS controllers with DVK CPU boards. DVK2 compatible with LSI-11 (56kW) and DVK3 compatible with F-11(128kW). Those boards assembled with widely available components, so repair and building new boards is possible. Contact me for further information.

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Jason T via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2017 1:01:13 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Old Soviet PDP-11-type DVK-3 computers available

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 4:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> I received the following email from Michael Veselov.  Please address
> your inquiries directly to him at mihail.veselov at gmail.com:

Seems quite a few of us did.  The machines are very interesting
(PDP-11 clones from Elektronika), however they are also in Moscow.

Anyone got a boat?

From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk  Wed May 17 11:17:52 2017
From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 17:17:52 +0100
Subject: Free to a good home, VAXstation 3100 M38, memory errors
Message-ID: <87fug3bgpb.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>

I have a VAXstation 3100 m38 which fails its POST due to problems with
the on board memory. I am not particularly interested in trying to fix
it myself, as I have another VAXstation which I am fond of. However, if
anyone else would like to try and repair it, it is free to a good home.

It seems as though the battery had leaked and caused some. I've cleaned
it up a bit but of course this wasn't enough to fix it.

The only condition is that you also take it with its alleged life long
partner, a working VR290 display (cables included). I'm based in
Nottingham, UK. Please contact me off list if you are interested.

Thanks,

Aaron.

From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed May 17 11:55:39 2017
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 09:55:39 -0700
Subject: Ethernet 1973/1974
In-Reply-To: <BN6PR06MB32986DBE449286EFD812F787BAE70@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BN6PR06MB32986DBE449286EFD812F787BAE70@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <2613e4f0-c4e1-7b6a-d781-ede795ef8497@bitsavers.org>

This is an early version. They made some changes like adding a protection diode and resistor on the coax input
after a nearby lightning strike at PARC wiped out a bunch of them. I guess I should pull apart the original Xerox
10 meg one which was designed by the same guy to see how similar they were.

I've been having lots of problems with shorted 10uF rat turd tantalums in the 3 meg ones as I've been bringing up
the net to interconnect the restored Altos at CHM.

On 5/16/17 8:47 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:
> Al just recently put this up on Bitsavers, November 1974 drawings for the first 2.94MHz Ethernet transceiver: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/alto/ethernet/Ethernet_Transceiver_Electrical_Characteristics.pdf
> 
> 
> Neat to see the 15 pin AUI to Thicknet transceiver (well, a lower bandwidth version of the 10MHz ones I grew up with) drawn out so clearly. Also shows something I've never seen in real life, an "Ethernet Dummy Transceiver" which is, I guess, something like a two-port DELNI ? (obviously showing my DEC introduction to AUI Ethernet there.)
> 
> 
> Tim
> 


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Wed May 17 16:35:10 2017
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 22:35:10 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: xv and VMS
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1705170022100.18197@helios.feedle.net>
References: <01QEENDP6R3Q0000G6@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <01QEGQ1SDZQE0000G6@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> I ask because I've been scraping together patches for xv and collecting 
> them into a Github repo[1].  I've finished adding all the patches 
> collected by Greg Roelofs, patches from OpenBSD, and now I'm working on 
> eliminating unsafe calls like strcpy() and sprintf().  Could I get some of 
> you VMS people to check out my work and submit any necessary changes?
>

Great.  Thanks for asking.  I'll take a look.

>
> My overall goal here is to clean up assorted bitrot and somehow convince 
> John Bradley to loosen the license.  I believe that I have the most 
> up-to-date codebase of xv available at the moment.
>

What's not to like about the license?  I've been using using XV for free for
over 20 years within the terms of the license.  I liked it so much I decided
to register and pay up anyway a few years ago even though the license said I
could continue to use it for free.

>
> [1] https://github.com/DavidGriffith/xv
>
> -- 
> David Griffith
> dave at 661.org
>
> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
>

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com  Wed May 17 19:45:39 2017
From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 20:45:39 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
Message-ID: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>

I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs software
to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not monopolize
the whole machine.

Any suggestions? i have not had much luck finding anything.

--Devin

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed May 17 21:24:30 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 22:24:30 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>

There may have been Rainbow BBS programs, but I doubt anything for the
11/34.  You may have to write this.
b

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 8:45 PM, devin davison via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs software
> to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not monopolize
> the whole machine.
>
> Any suggestions? i have not had much luck finding anything.
>
> --Devin
>

From microtechdart at gmail.com  Wed May 17 22:29:54 2017
From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 20:29:54 -0700
Subject: DCC-116 E / DATA GENERAL NOVA 2/10 / Nixdorf 620 - Restoring and
 restarting
In-Reply-To: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be>
References: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be>
Message-ID: <CANyxsh9k=3mAjVs+sFpz4febcDYqoy7ntVh5UP15oV+uCXc+-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dominique,

I'm quite interested in seeing your Entrex/Nixdorf system restored.  Please
keep us updated here.  Nice work saving these rare items!

I've done some of my own work restoring a DG Nova-type system.  (
http://Point4iris.com ).  I'd love to see if there's any way I could help.

I'll read Christian Kennedy's response here, as he seems FAR more familiar
and knowledgeable than I am here, but if I can add value in any way, I
would love to.

Best,
-AJ

On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi guys !
>
> My name is Dominique, 43 , from Belgium (I apologize in advance for my
> approximate English). I join this forum under the recommendations of
> Curious Marc. It seems there are people here who can help me to get back to
> life the venerable machine that I have just recovered.
>
> Some pictures of the beast :
>
> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/overview01.jpg <
> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/overview01.jpg>
>
> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/terminal.jpg <
> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/terminal.jpg>
>
> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/comrack_closeup.jpg <
> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/comrack_closeup.jpg>
>
> It is a "Nixdor 600 series" (Apparently a Nixdorf 620/35), upgraded
> several times until 1980, the CPU board is dated from this year. So I do
> not know exactly what machine it is today the equivalent.
>
> Anyway, the Nixdorf 620 is actually built by "Digital Computer Controls"
> and after some researches it seems that it is a "DCC-116 E", the 17 slot
> version of the "DCC-116" which Is a clone of the "Data General Nova 2/10".
>
> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/DCC.jpg <
> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/DCC.jpg>
>
> The machine has five Key-stations (ENTREX DATA/SCOPE), a Mag-tape Pertec
> 8840A - A Disk Cartridge Diablo Model 40 and a big line drum printer (Data
> Products model 2230), strange machine, there is a tape reader inside the
> printer.
>
> Here is the list of the boards I have with the references written on them
> and their position in the machine:
>
> *17    HEX 0 ? 15                 ENTREX INC 62 00 01842 002 REV A*
>
> *16    HEX 16 30 31             ENTREX INC 62 00 01842 002 REV A**
> 15    OPTION 2                  Empty**
> 14    OPTION 1                  Empty**
> 13    PRINTER                   ENTREX INC SN598**
> 12    TAPE 556/800 BPI     2433 LFI 213**
> 11    TAPE 1600 BPI          Empty**
> 10    DISK                           2456 00 MP-Kontroller D44an620
> 6393500215 2456 7 0 1577**
> 09    COMMO                     Empty**
> 08    SCANNER                  Scanner BD 2431 NCAG 54147.1.15 2431 02394**
> 07    MEM                           1609 0 7 02616**
> 06    MEM                           Empty**
> 05    MEM                           1609 0 8 02367**
> 04    MEM                           1615 01 9 5596**
> 03    TTY                             Empty**
> 02    DO NOT USE             Empty**
> 01    C.P.                              1509 05 4 04436*
>
> Concerning this I also ask a few questions:
>
>  *
>
>    What are the boards in slots 16 and 17 for?
>
>  *
>
>    I do not have a COM card, does that mean that I could not attempt a
>    serial transmission (type rs232) with this actual setup ?
>
>  *
>
>    I have no idea how many kilobytes are present, apparently there are
>    two core memory cards (8kb each? 16Kb each?), And non-core RAM board.
>
> I first solved a problem with the power supply of the disk pack (bad HF
> filter, short-circuited with the chassis, then it is also dead HF filter in
> the "multi-plug" of the chassis that start to burn, once these problems
> were solved, I cleaned the machine thoroughly, cleaning the heads of
> readings with isopropyl alcohol, I Not yet cleaned the disc himself which
> at first glance looks extremely clean, it has not left the machine for 30
> years.
>
> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/disckpack01.jpg <
> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/disckpack01.jpg>
>
> I cleaned all the guides and the heads of the nine track tape Pertec
> 8840A. There was also a false contact in the ON-LINE button. I did a first
> cleanup. I think there is always a problem with the HI-DEN button used to
> set the magtape to 800BPI. It is currently ineffective, but I have a doubt
> about the contacts of the lamp socket).
>
> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/ninetrack.jpg <
> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/ninetrack.jpg>
>
> I then cleaned all the sockets and contacts at the boards of the computer
> (logic and PSU)
>
> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/clean_contact.jpg <
> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/clean_contact.jpg>
>
>
> Unfortunately, after a couple of hours, the "POWER FAIL" light has started
> to light up. The problem here is that I have no schematics, it is a modular
> power supply consisting of two elements:
>
> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psus.jpg <
> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psus.jpg>
>
> One seems to be dedicated to the 15 VDC regulated, the second module is in
> charge of the regulated 5VDC. Both elements have a "Power fail module".
> When the machine is completely populated I now observe that the + 5VDC
> collapses at +1,9VDC.
>
> Here what I measured out, you will also see what the boards of these power
> supply look like.
>
> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_1.jpg <
> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_1.jpg>
>
> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_2.jpg <
> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_2.jpg>
>
> Another thing I noted during my measurements, where I should (I think)
> measure 15V, I have 18V, looking at the documentation on the NOVA 2 (4
> slots), I observed according to the diagrams below That there is 18V but
> before a zener diode and not at the level of connectors where there must be
> 15VDC, should I warn me ? Would the diode be dead ?
>
> I tried to join temporarily a secondary regulated power supply to
> reinforce the + 5VDC so as to be sure that the problem did not come from
> the logical part of the computer which checks these voltages and triggers
> the Power Fail status. By coupling this external regulated power supply,
> the computer restarts again, thus it is definitively the power supply (or
> the comparator component(s) of the power fail module)
>
> If I removes all the boards (printer, core memory, scanner, disk
> controller, etc.), the Power Fail light eventually goes out, I get again
> the 5VDC, so the power has become "too weak" to power the computer when it
> is fully populated.
>
> Despite the temporary (and dangerous) look of my assembly with secondary
> power supply, I could not stop myself and attempt a boot procedure via the
> Cold Start button of the machine from the Disk Pack, and it works! :-)
>
> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/first_boot.jpg
>
> It seems that I still have problems with the magtape, I had errors trying
> to read a backup, but it may be simply because I still cannot get the
> machine in 800BPI because of the capricious buttons of the front panel. I
> also wrote a tape mark via a "WRITE TAPE MARK AND REWIND" function, the
> mark seems to be written but does not do the Rewind, however if I launch a
> REWIND only function, it executes the action appropriately. In short, still
> things to investigate on this side.
>
> Notes that the Operating system I used to make these tests is a very
> limited OS named DIDOS which was distributed by Nixdorf for his 620 Serie.
> As the machine is a clone of DG NOVA 2/10, I wonder if the computer is
> compatible with programs for the NOVA series of Data General? So I wonder
> if the DCC-116 was compatible with the software for NOVAs?
>
> The other questions I ask myself at this point are the ways to transfer
> softwares or bootable OS on this machine? I have no other disk pack on
> another system but I have a nine track tape TU81 + connected to a VAX
> 4000-605A under OpenVMS 6.2, and I can put this computer on my network. Do
> you think there's a way to make a bootable tape for my NOVA 2 clone with
> the Pertec 8840A from a VAX 4000 with a TU81+ ?
>
> Well, to continue, I have to repair this PSU, all information is welcome,
> schematics would be ideal of course.
>
> Finally, note that I am not a professional electronics technician, I fixed
> a lot of machines basic knowledge, intuition, researches, comparisons and
> logic, it is effective but full of limitations too, so forgive me in
> advance If I do not always understand the possible answers of electronics
> in "high engineering" mode ;-)
>
> As a bonus, the V1 of a small video mounted with a few clips captured
> during a session of my nocturnal repairs, during the first boot of the
> machine since 3 decades ! (on my music, yes, I'm also a composer ;-) )
>
> https://youtu.be/5jWOUtLKRIU
>
> Thanks a lot to all in advance ;-)
>
> Dominique
>
>


-- 

Thanks,
AJ Palmgren
http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283
https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed May 17 22:58:06 2017
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 20:58:06 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58E07A52-8E56-40F0-8C69-F95C6A117745@aracnet.com>


> On May 17, 2017, at 5:45 PM, devin davison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs software
> to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not monopolize
> the whole machine.
> 
> Any suggestions? i have not had much luck finding anything.
> 
> --Devin

There may be something for RSTS/E.  That seems like the OS most likely to have such software.  You might also find some old UNIX source code that might compile on BSD2.11.

Zane




From microtechdart at gmail.com  Wed May 17 23:05:33 2017
From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 21:05:33 -0700
Subject: DCC-116 E / DATA GENERAL NOVA 2/10 / Nixdorf 620 - Restoring and
 restarting
In-Reply-To: <CANyxsh9k=3mAjVs+sFpz4febcDYqoy7ntVh5UP15oV+uCXc+-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be>
 <CANyxsh9k=3mAjVs+sFpz4febcDYqoy7ntVh5UP15oV+uCXc+-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANyxsh-zUQumR2-siVT7hqHBD46f7wQsKD4n7A_db4UVnC-7wA@mail.gmail.com>

My search for this was prompted by my seeing one on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/282462822861

Did anyone here purchase it, or know who did?  Just curious, since these
seem so rare and interesting.

Best,
-AJ

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 8:29 PM, AJ Palmgren <microtechdart at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dominique,
>
> I'm quite interested in seeing your Entrex/Nixdorf system restored.
> Please keep us updated here.  Nice work saving these rare items!
>
> I've done some of my own work restoring a DG Nova-type system.  (
> http://Point4iris.com ).  I'd love to see if there's any way I could help.
>
> I'll read Christian Kennedy's response here, as he seems FAR more familiar
> and knowledgeable than I am here, but if I can add value in any way, I
> would love to.
>
> Best,
> -AJ
>
> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi guys !
>>
>> My name is Dominique, 43 , from Belgium (I apologize in advance for my
>> approximate English). I join this forum under the recommendations of
>> Curious Marc. It seems there are people here who can help me to get back to
>> life the venerable machine that I have just recovered.
>>
>> Some pictures of the beast :
>>
>> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/overview01.jpg <
>> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/overview01.jpg>
>>
>> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/terminal.jpg <
>> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/terminal.jpg>
>>
>> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/comrack_closeup.jpg <
>> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/comrack_closeup.jpg>
>>
>> It is a "Nixdor 600 series" (Apparently a Nixdorf 620/35), upgraded
>> several times until 1980, the CPU board is dated from this year. So I do
>> not know exactly what machine it is today the equivalent.
>>
>> Anyway, the Nixdorf 620 is actually built by "Digital Computer Controls"
>> and after some researches it seems that it is a "DCC-116 E", the 17 slot
>> version of the "DCC-116" which Is a clone of the "Data General Nova 2/10".
>>
>> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/DCC.jpg <
>> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/DCC.jpg>
>>
>> The machine has five Key-stations (ENTREX DATA/SCOPE), a Mag-tape Pertec
>> 8840A - A Disk Cartridge Diablo Model 40 and a big line drum printer (Data
>> Products model 2230), strange machine, there is a tape reader inside the
>> printer.
>>
>> Here is the list of the boards I have with the references written on them
>> and their position in the machine:
>>
>> *17    HEX 0 ? 15                 ENTREX INC 62 00 01842 002 REV A*
>>
>> *16    HEX 16 30 31             ENTREX INC 62 00 01842 002 REV A**
>> 15    OPTION 2                  Empty**
>> 14    OPTION 1                  Empty**
>> 13    PRINTER                   ENTREX INC SN598**
>> 12    TAPE 556/800 BPI     2433 LFI 213**
>> 11    TAPE 1600 BPI          Empty**
>> 10    DISK                           2456 00 MP-Kontroller D44an620
>> 6393500215 2456 7 0 1577**
>> 09    COMMO                     Empty**
>> 08    SCANNER                  Scanner BD 2431 NCAG 54147.1.15 2431
>> 02394**
>> 07    MEM                           1609 0 7 02616**
>> 06    MEM                           Empty**
>> 05    MEM                           1609 0 8 02367**
>> 04    MEM                           1615 01 9 5596**
>> 03    TTY                             Empty**
>> 02    DO NOT USE             Empty**
>> 01    C.P.                              1509 05 4 04436*
>>
>> Concerning this I also ask a few questions:
>>
>>  *
>>
>>    What are the boards in slots 16 and 17 for?
>>
>>  *
>>
>>    I do not have a COM card, does that mean that I could not attempt a
>>    serial transmission (type rs232) with this actual setup ?
>>
>>  *
>>
>>    I have no idea how many kilobytes are present, apparently there are
>>    two core memory cards (8kb each? 16Kb each?), And non-core RAM board.
>>
>> I first solved a problem with the power supply of the disk pack (bad HF
>> filter, short-circuited with the chassis, then it is also dead HF filter in
>> the "multi-plug" of the chassis that start to burn, once these problems
>> were solved, I cleaned the machine thoroughly, cleaning the heads of
>> readings with isopropyl alcohol, I Not yet cleaned the disc himself which
>> at first glance looks extremely clean, it has not left the machine for 30
>> years.
>>
>> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/disckpack01.jpg <
>> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/disckpack01.jpg>
>>
>> I cleaned all the guides and the heads of the nine track tape Pertec
>> 8840A. There was also a false contact in the ON-LINE button. I did a first
>> cleanup. I think there is always a problem with the HI-DEN button used to
>> set the magtape to 800BPI. It is currently ineffective, but I have a doubt
>> about the contacts of the lamp socket).
>>
>> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/ninetrack.jpg <
>> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/ninetrack.jpg>
>>
>> I then cleaned all the sockets and contacts at the boards of the computer
>> (logic and PSU)
>>
>> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/clean_contact.jpg <
>> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/clean_contact.jpg>
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, after a couple of hours, the "POWER FAIL" light has
>> started to light up. The problem here is that I have no schematics, it is a
>> modular power supply consisting of two elements:
>>
>> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psus.jpg <
>> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psus.jpg>
>>
>> One seems to be dedicated to the 15 VDC regulated, the second module is
>> in charge of the regulated 5VDC. Both elements have a "Power fail module".
>> When the machine is completely populated I now observe that the + 5VDC
>> collapses at +1,9VDC.
>>
>> Here what I measured out, you will also see what the boards of these
>> power supply look like.
>>
>> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_1.jpg <
>> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_1.jpg>
>>
>> http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_2.jpg <
>> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_2.jpg>
>>
>> Another thing I noted during my measurements, where I should (I think)
>> measure 15V, I have 18V, looking at the documentation on the NOVA 2 (4
>> slots), I observed according to the diagrams below That there is 18V but
>> before a zener diode and not at the level of connectors where there must be
>> 15VDC, should I warn me ? Would the diode be dead ?
>>
>> I tried to join temporarily a secondary regulated power supply to
>> reinforce the + 5VDC so as to be sure that the problem did not come from
>> the logical part of the computer which checks these voltages and triggers
>> the Power Fail status. By coupling this external regulated power supply,
>> the computer restarts again, thus it is definitively the power supply (or
>> the comparator component(s) of the power fail module)
>>
>> If I removes all the boards (printer, core memory, scanner, disk
>> controller, etc.), the Power Fail light eventually goes out, I get again
>> the 5VDC, so the power has become "too weak" to power the computer when it
>> is fully populated.
>>
>> Despite the temporary (and dangerous) look of my assembly with secondary
>> power supply, I could not stop myself and attempt a boot procedure via the
>> Cold Start button of the machine from the Disk Pack, and it works! :-)
>>
>> http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/first_boot.jpg
>>
>> It seems that I still have problems with the magtape, I had errors trying
>> to read a backup, but it may be simply because I still cannot get the
>> machine in 800BPI because of the capricious buttons of the front panel. I
>> also wrote a tape mark via a "WRITE TAPE MARK AND REWIND" function, the
>> mark seems to be written but does not do the Rewind, however if I launch a
>> REWIND only function, it executes the action appropriately. In short, still
>> things to investigate on this side.
>>
>> Notes that the Operating system I used to make these tests is a very
>> limited OS named DIDOS which was distributed by Nixdorf for his 620 Serie.
>> As the machine is a clone of DG NOVA 2/10, I wonder if the computer is
>> compatible with programs for the NOVA series of Data General? So I wonder
>> if the DCC-116 was compatible with the software for NOVAs?
>>
>> The other questions I ask myself at this point are the ways to transfer
>> softwares or bootable OS on this machine? I have no other disk pack on
>> another system but I have a nine track tape TU81 + connected to a VAX
>> 4000-605A under OpenVMS 6.2, and I can put this computer on my network. Do
>> you think there's a way to make a bootable tape for my NOVA 2 clone with
>> the Pertec 8840A from a VAX 4000 with a TU81+ ?
>>
>> Well, to continue, I have to repair this PSU, all information is welcome,
>> schematics would be ideal of course.
>>
>> Finally, note that I am not a professional electronics technician, I
>> fixed a lot of machines basic knowledge, intuition, researches, comparisons
>> and logic, it is effective but full of limitations too, so forgive me in
>> advance If I do not always understand the possible answers of electronics
>> in "high engineering" mode ;-)
>>
>> As a bonus, the V1 of a small video mounted with a few clips captured
>> during a session of my nocturnal repairs, during the first boot of the
>> machine since 3 decades ! (on my music, yes, I'm also a composer ;-) )
>>
>> https://youtu.be/5jWOUtLKRIU
>>
>> Thanks a lot to all in advance ;-)
>>
>> Dominique
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Thanks,
> AJ Palmgren
> http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck
> https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/
>
>


-- 

Thanks,
AJ Palmgren
http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283
https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/

From kirkbdavis at me.com  Wed May 17 23:53:08 2017
From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 21:53:08 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <58E07A52-8E56-40F0-8C69-F95C6A117745@aracnet.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <58E07A52-8E56-40F0-8C69-F95C6A117745@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <7727A11E-5119-4A9B-930C-4E8C59DF44E3@me.com>

There were 2 Unix BBS programs that I played with back in the 80s. One of them I think was called XBBS. The other one which was a lot better was called Waffle (89 timeframe). Waffle was a lot more configurable and snazzier and ran well on SysV (and others). XBBS was targeted for Xenix, was older & may run better on older hardware but would require some porting.

Kirk

> On May 17, 2017, at 8:58 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On May 17, 2017, at 5:45 PM, devin davison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs software
>> to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not monopolize
>> the whole machine.
>> 
>> Any suggestions? i have not had much luck finding anything.
>> 
>> --Devin
> 
> There may be something for RSTS/E.  That seems like the OS most likely to have such software.  You might also find some old UNIX source code that might compile on BSD2.11.
> 
> Zane
> 
> 
> 


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Wed May 17 23:32:26 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 21:32:26 -0700
Subject: DCC-116 E / DATA GENERAL NOVA 2/10 / Nixdorf 620 - Restoring and
 restarting
In-Reply-To: <BC46CDE7-4BE4-4BE3-A5D2-6FF1CCF6725C@charter.net>
References: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be>
 <dd34e018-5570-4da0-28cf-d85afd34d400@bitsavers.org>
 <1bf65e45-fafe-38d5-254a-6b9ee11f309f@sydex.com>
 <BC46CDE7-4BE4-4BE3-A5D2-6FF1CCF6725C@charter.net>
Message-ID: <c47ffbf6-02d8-aea8-b092-8e5fbb9b2829@jwsss.com>



On 4/1/2017 6:47 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote:
> Typically not, since with no tape it should act like all the holes are punched, yes?
with no tape, the Data Products servo ran open loop.  You'd think what 
you said was true, but IIRC, you didn't run them with no tape.

Later the 2230/60/90s had solid state and it wasn't a problem any more.  
I don't know about this printer, but in the 80's a lot of the printers 
worked similarly to the Data Products.

thanks
Jim
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Apr 1, 2017, at 18:04, Chuck Guzis via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 04/01/2017 01:45 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 4/1/17 12:33 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote:
>>>> strange machine, there is a tape reader inside the printer.
>>> it is used to program vertical forms postioning. the format tape is
>>> in a loop
>>
>> ...and whatever you do, don't lose the tape.  There will be
>> "interesting" consequences the moment some program does a form feed
>> (skip on channel 1)...
>>
>> --Chuck
>
>


From sellam.ismail at gmail.com  Wed May 17 23:44:00 2017
From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 21:44:00 -0700
Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 diskless workstation with Corvus OmniNet interface
In-Reply-To: <CAHJBWnSAotfzJSyyh9a4EcLb15Q_GNBkbPN5mU64RvGUPq10WQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHJBWnRa-DovfdaX9NkkRm0iS7Xc-+fUvTwCngJmn-3cmmMxGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHJBWnSFWVJfHMbmBPLKJAQhXrvNxhc=HBE--9XZ9cyyWR+QBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHJBWnSAotfzJSyyh9a4EcLb15Q_GNBkbPN5mU64RvGUPq10WQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHJBWnQvEZGMcUooWiU47DM+_Tdn6Gu4AEsEmxfiRqtoYok+JA@mail.gmail.com>

I have a neat TRS-80 with a Network 4 (Corvus OmniNet) interface. More
details are here:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57815-TRS-80-Model-4-Diskless-Workstation-with-Network-4-interface&p=461051#post461051

Thanks!

Sellam

From sellam.ismail at gmail.com  Wed May 17 23:53:03 2017
From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 21:53:03 -0700
Subject: AT&T Work Group System Voice Power voice processing boards for Unix
 PC 6300/7300 for sale
Message-ID: <CAHJBWnRV7ZKuoo87KaiaiNmkMm_8G95x4WkLyF0vVW-XQLckNg@mail.gmail.com>

I have two of these available for sale. Details here:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57816-AT-amp-T-Work-Group-System-Voice-Power-voice-processing-boards-for-Unix-PC-6300-7300&p=461052#post461052

Thanks!

Sellam

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Thu May 18 00:21:20 2017
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 06:21:20 +0100
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <58E07A52-8E56-40F0-8C69-F95C6A117745@aracnet.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <58E07A52-8E56-40F0-8C69-F95C6A117745@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <45eb0e85-d6ba-3032-ac07-efd4e38885a7@btinternet.com>



On 18/05/2017 04:58, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>> On May 17, 2017, at 5:45 PM, devin davison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs software
>> to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not monopolize
>> the whole machine.
>>
>> Any suggestions? i have not had much luck finding anything.
>>
>> --Devin
> There may be something for RSTS/E.  That seems like the OS most likely to have such software.  You might also find some old UNIX source code that might compile on BSD2.11.
>
> Zane
>
>
>
I ran Fido on a DEC Rainbow in the early 80's.
Almost all of the BBS's were on PC's and accessed by telephone dial up.
Mail was sent by toll free zone hopping.

It was purely an amateur hobby thing.

The mini and mainframe world was too much of an expensive place for the 
happy hobby hacker!!
Hence little or nothing by way of BBS's on PDP-11 and above.

Rod Smallwood


Rod Small

-- 
There is no wrong or right
Nor black and white.
Just darknessand light


From wilson at dbit.com  Thu May 18 00:26:15 2017
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 01:26:15 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170518052615.GA7660@dbit.dbit.com>

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 08:45:39PM -0400, devin davison via cctalk wrote:
>I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs software
>to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not monopolize
>the whole machine.

A krillion years ago I wrote about half of a BBS for my 11/34a, which
ran (as an RTS) under RSTS V7.0-07.  I'd love to finish it ...

John Wilson
D Bit

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Thu May 18 00:38:24 2017
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 06:38:24 +0100
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <20170518052615.GA7660@dbit.dbit.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170518052615.GA7660@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-ID: <f6705af9-4b7c-0bd6-8a7e-0098e66be496@btinternet.com>



On 18/05/2017 06:26, John Wilson via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 08:45:39PM -0400, devin davison via cctalk wrote:
>> I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs software
>> to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not monopolize
>> the whole machine.
> A krillion years ago I wrote about half of a BBS for my 11/34a, which
> ran (as an RTS) under RSTS V7.0-07.  I'd love to finish it ...
>
> John Wilson
> D Bit
So whats stopping you?

Rod

-- 
There is no wrong or right
Nor black and white.
Just darknessand light


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Thu May 18 00:47:47 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 22:47:47 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f75e497b-f7fa-1bcd-de43-114a311367e5@jwsss.com>



On 5/17/2017 5:45 PM, devin davison via cctalk wrote:
> I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs software
> to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not monopolize
> the whole machine.
>
> Any suggestions? i have not had much luck finding anything.
>
> --Devin
You might troll for copies of Boardwatch magazine.  It was the center of 
the BBS universe (in some people's minds, there were others who despised 
it).

I do recall vaguely people saying they were running larger systems, but 
it was mostly people who wanted to be friendly to the technical talent 
they were getting and have support machines for companies. They would 
hire 18 or 20 somethings, who would be able to log on to a BBS find 
files, etc., but take forever to figure out how to get into some of the 
crap systems that were around that were not BBS like interfaces.

Of course that was rare, but was around for businesses with the use case 
to need that sort of patch / support.

http://www.bbsdays.com/people/jack_rickard/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boardwatch

If someone had done such, it might have been in boardwatch if anywhere.  
I tossed tons of those in previous moves, so can't help with that.  Plus 
as has been stated it would have been rare, and looking  thru paper 
copies would be a long process and probably turn up little.

hopefully if you find Boardwatch digitally somewhere, or information 
derived from there you can turn up some things.

thanks
Jim

From spectre at floodgap.com  Thu May 18 01:13:07 2017
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 23:13:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <f6705af9-4b7c-0bd6-8a7e-0098e66be496@btinternet.com> from Rod
 Smallwood via cctalk at "May 18, 17 06:38:24 am"
Message-ID: <201705180613.v4I6D7St6488116@floodgap.com>

> > > I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs software
> > > to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not monopolize
> > > the whole machine.
> >
> > A krillion years ago I wrote about half of a BBS for my 11/34a, which
> > ran (as an RTS) under RSTS V7.0-07.  I'd love to finish it ...
>
> So whats stopping you?

Retirement?

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- select unique ("Just another SQL hacker") jash from id_rec order by 1; -----

From sellam.ismail at gmail.com  Thu May 18 00:09:15 2017
From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 22:09:15 -0700
Subject: For Sale: Mostek MK3880 (Z80 compatible) development system
In-Reply-To: <CAHJBWnSjDJ9-ThbN4dX0dR_E+uCyNFPWA43in+Jzar-GDjFdtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHJBWnQ19o5RL5T26-hQo0kMr3q--JWzBngTYaNz=3Hhs3snjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHJBWnTwyft+XSmTv2YkhQ-m_yC2DPu2vqaovEPKYfxhBm+V5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHJBWnT0NmySQVWWY46Omth5pYMxNyq1wTDOub4yU7Hvzu-QCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHJBWnSjDJ9-ThbN4dX0dR_E+uCyNFPWA43in+Jzar-GDjFdtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHJBWnQhmW93niZcbW9+eb_Vx3DL5TJRMdFrf6wsY2DuMjeY4g@mail.gmail.com>

This is an interesting MK3880 (Z80) STD bus development system that came
out of Mostek and features an engineering prototype Mostek Z80 STI chip.

Details are here:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57817-Mostek-MK3880-(Z80-compatible)-Development-System&p=461056#post461056

Thanks!

Sellam

From wilson at dbit.com  Thu May 18 01:30:17 2017
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 02:30:17 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <f6705af9-4b7c-0bd6-8a7e-0098e66be496@btinternet.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170518052615.GA7660@dbit.dbit.com>
 <f6705af9-4b7c-0bd6-8a7e-0098e66be496@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20170518063017.GA8438@dbit.dbit.com>

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 06:38:24AM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>So whats stopping you?

That question applies to so much ...

John Wilson
D Bit

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Thu May 18 02:42:12 2017
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 09:42:12 +0200
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170518074212.GK20746@Update.UU.SE>

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 08:45:39PM -0400, devin davison via cctalk wrote:
> I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs software
> to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not monopolize
> the whole machine.
> 
> Any suggestions? i have not had much luck finding anything.
> 
> --Devin


Not PDP-11 but some might find it interesting nontheless. A group of 
Swedes ran a BBS on a VAX-11/730:

https://www.retrodatorer.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/bbs-1-CT-dmz-1-1986.jpg

/P

From andrew at cerberus-software.com.au  Thu May 18 01:24:18 2017
From: andrew at cerberus-software.com.au (Andrew Harvey)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 16:24:18 +1000
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <201705180613.v4I6D7St6488116@floodgap.com>
References: <f6705af9-4b7c-0bd6-8a7e-0098e66be496@btinternet.com>
 <201705180613.v4I6D7St6488116@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <CAGjKRUYv84j9MW8aTDTHNos5JCMzp=wamwRPpMCMWjzn21S+tg@mail.gmail.com>

I too wrote half a BBS back in the early 80's for MU-BASIC on RT-11v4 when
I was in mid secondary school. I ended up running GBBS on an apple2
instead. That seems like a lifetime ago :-)

BTW this is my first post to the list, so, I'll introduce myself. I'm a C#
.net developer these days, but, I cut my teeth on a Websters PDP-11 (Q-bus)
mini computer in the early 80s. Recently I purchased a similar model from
one of the members on this list which I intend to resurrect RSN.

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 4:13 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > > > I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs
> software
> > > > to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not
> monopolize
> > > > the whole machine.
> > >
> > > A krillion years ago I wrote about half of a BBS for my 11/34a, which
> > > ran (as an RTS) under RSTS V7.0-07.  I'd love to finish it ...
> >
> > So whats stopping you?
>
> Retirement?
>
> --
> ------------------------------------ personal:
> http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
>   Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com *
> ckaiser at floodgap.com
> -- select unique ("Just another SQL hacker") jash from id_rec order by 1;
> -----
>

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Thu May 18 06:49:28 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 11:49:28 +0000
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB1302119A65F48911358AAAEEEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


Well, that would depend on the OS in use.  There are BBS programs for Unix.
I used one that came from one of the sources newsgroups decades ago and it
worked really well (I never tried on a PDP-11 but there was nothing in it that
would preclude this.  I did it on a SYS III Xenix clone).  BSD 2.11 should run
fine on a 34 or 23 and there is always Ultrix-11 which I have certainly run on
the 23.

bill

________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of william degnan via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2017 10:24 PM
To: devin davison; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11

There may have been Rainbow BBS programs, but I doubt anything for the
11/34.  You may have to write this.
b

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 8:45 PM, devin davison via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs software
> to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not monopolize
> the whole machine.
>
> Any suggestions? i have not had much luck finding anything.
>
> --Devin
>

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Thu May 18 06:51:15 2017
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 07:51:15 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
Message-ID: <1ce7fe.6d0b02df.464ee4b3@aol.com>

back in the 80s there was a  fellow  at  dec mark hunt   wrote a bbs  for  
the   11/70 ... wonder what ever  happened  to  Mark?
 
Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
In a message dated 5/17/2017 11:30:29 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

On Thu,  May 18, 2017 at 06:38:24AM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>So whats  stopping you?

That question applies to so much ...

John  Wilson
D Bit


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Thu May 18 06:53:25 2017
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 07:53:25 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
Message-ID: <1ce849.1ea42289.464ee534@aol.com>

added info  this  would have  been  for  
_RSTS_ (http://www.dmv.net/dec/pdf/rsts80rmsintro.pdf)  of course.
 
Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  

 
 
In a message dated 5/18/2017 4:51:21 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

back in  the 80s there was a  fellow  at  dec mark hunt    wrote a bbs  for 
 
the   11/70 ... wonder what  ever  happened  to  Mark?

Ed#  _www.smecc.org_  (http://www.smecc.org)  


In a message dated 5/17/2017 11:30:29  P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk at classiccmp.org  writes:

On Thu,  May 18, 2017 at 06:38:24AM +0100, Rod Smallwood  wrote:
>So whats  stopping you?

That question applies to so  much ...

John  Wilson
D  Bit



From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Thu May 18 06:58:56 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 11:58:56 +0000
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <45eb0e85-d6ba-3032-ac07-efd4e38885a7@btinternet.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <58E07A52-8E56-40F0-8C69-F95C6A117745@aracnet.com>,
 <45eb0e85-d6ba-3032-ac07-efd4e38885a7@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB1302E2B5A6B7172A4E87F067EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Rod Smallwood via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 1:21 AM
To: Zane Healy; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11

On 18/05/2017 04:58, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>> On May 17, 2017, at 5:45 PM, devin davison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs software
>> to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not monopolize
>> the whole machine.
>>
>> Any suggestions? i have not had much luck finding anything.
>>
>> --Devin
> There may be something for RSTS/E.  That seems like the OS most likely to have such software.  You might also find some old UNIX source code that might compile on BSD2.11.
>
> Zane
>
>
>
I ran Fido on a DEC Rainbow in the early 80's.
Almost all of the BBS's were on PC's and accessed by telephone dial up.
Mail was sent by toll free zone hopping.

It was purely an amateur hobby thing.

The mini and mainframe world was too much of an expensive place for the
happy hobby hacker!!
Hence little or nothing by way of BBS's on PDP-11 and above.

______________________________________

Maybe in your neck of the woods. I had Unix in my house from 1984 on.
And, I ran a BBS (over a local lan using Sytek boxes which were serial
connections) at the place I worked, a campus.  Worked quite well.

bill

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Thu May 18 07:00:54 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 12:00:54 +0000
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <201705180613.v4I6D7St6488116@floodgap.com>
References: <f6705af9-4b7c-0bd6-8a7e-0098e66be496@btinternet.com> from Rod
 Smallwood via cctalk at "May 18, 17 06:38:24
 am",<201705180613.v4I6D7St6488116@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB1302F885D84D2D5F9BABD7A5EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Cameron Kaiser via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 2:13 AM
To: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11

> > > I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs software
> > > to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not monopolize
> > > the whole machine.
> >
> > A krillion years ago I wrote about half of a BBS for my 11/34a, which
> > ran (as an RTS) under RSTS V7.0-07.  I'd love to finish it ...
>
> So whats stopping you?

Retirement?

____________________________

John, retire?  Fat chance of that.

bill

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu May 18 07:48:07 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 08:48:07 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <20170518052615.GA7660@dbit.dbit.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170518052615.GA7660@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-ID: <2b1bdf85-2895-c59e-fc41-65e0a6df039f@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-05-18 1:26 AM, John Wilson via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 08:45:39PM -0400, devin davison via cctalk wrote:
>> I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs software
>> to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not monopolize
>> the whole machine.
>
> A krillion years ago I wrote about half of a BBS for my 11/34a, which
> ran (as an RTS) under RSTS V7.0-07.  I'd love to finish it ...
>

Throw it up on github and invite contributors?

--T

> John Wilson
> D Bit
>


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu May 18 08:03:28 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 09:03:28 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <20170518052615.GA7660@dbit.dbit.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170518052615.GA7660@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-ID: <70D3B0BC-0F68-4955-AEFC-DA5540C88DAB@comcast.net>


> On May 18, 2017, at 1:26 AM, John Wilson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 08:45:39PM -0400, devin davison via cctalk wrote:
>> I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs software
>> to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not monopolize
>> the whole machine.
> 
> A krillion years ago I wrote about half of a BBS for my 11/34a, which
> ran (as an RTS) under RSTS V7.0-07.  I'd love to finish it ...

As an RTS?  Wow, that's doing it the hard way.  In either RT or RSX emulation it would be easier, you have a friendlier development environment that way.  I've done an application as an RTS in the long-ago past (an implementation of QUBIC, 3D 4x4x4x tic-tac-toe for a classmate) but that was on V5B, where an RTS was the only way to do assembly programming on RSTS.

	paul



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu May 18 08:07:03 2017
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 06:07:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180606170.11566@deltasoft.com>

On Wed, 17 May 2017, devin davison via cctalk wrote:

> I have both a pdp 11/34 and 11/23 and am trying to find some bbs software
> to run. Preferably something that will run under an os and not monopolize
> the whole machine.
>
> Any suggestions? i have not had much luck finding anything.

I'd be surprised if you did.  This is however, an excellent opportunity to 
write your own. :)  (At least to me, it would be a fun project.)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From dce at skynet.be  Thu May 18 08:08:37 2017
From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 15:08:37 +0200
Subject: DCC-116 E / DATA GENERAL NOVA 2/10 / Nixdorf 620 - Restoring and
 restarting
In-Reply-To: <CANyxsh-zUQumR2-siVT7hqHBD46f7wQsKD4n7A_db4UVnC-7wA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be>
 <CANyxsh9k=3mAjVs+sFpz4febcDYqoy7ntVh5UP15oV+uCXc+-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANyxsh-zUQumR2-siVT7hqHBD46f7wQsKD4n7A_db4UVnC-7wA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d1a8fa37-44a8-3884-03a6-698421bf8823@skynet.be>

Hi,

I saw this ad but the shipping costs until Belgium decided me to react 
as if I had not seen anything ^^

It's a pity, I would have taken a few boards.


On 18/05/2017 06:05, AJ Palmgren wrote:
> My search for this was prompted by my seeing one on eBay:
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/282462822861
>
> Did anyone here purchase it, or know who did?  Just curious, since 
> these seem so rare and interesting.
>
> Best,
> -AJ
>
> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 8:29 PM, AJ Palmgren <microtechdart at gmail.com 
> <mailto:microtechdart at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Dominique,
>
>     I'm quite interested in seeing your Entrex/Nixdorf system
>     restored.  Please keep us updated here.  Nice work saving these
>     rare items!
>
>     I've done some of my own work restoring a DG Nova-type system.  (
>     http://Point4iris.com ).  I'd love to see if there's any way I
>     could help.
>
>     I'll read Christian Kennedy's response here, as he seems FAR more
>     familiar and knowledgeable than I am here, but if I can add value
>     in any way, I would love to.
>
>     Best,
>     -AJ
>
>     On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk
>     <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>
>         Hi guys !
>
>         My name is Dominique, 43 , from Belgium (I apologize in
>         advance for my approximate English). I join this forum under
>         the recommendations of Curious Marc. It seems there are people
>         here who can help me to get back to life the venerable machine
>         that I have just recovered.
>
>         Some pictures of the beast :
>
>         http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/overview01.jpg
>         <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/overview01.jpg>
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/overview01.jpg
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/overview01.jpg>>
>
>         http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/terminal.jpg
>         <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/terminal.jpg>
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/terminal.jpg
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/terminal.jpg>>
>
>         http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/comrack_closeup.jpg
>         <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/comrack_closeup.jpg>
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/comrack_closeup.jpg
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/comrack_closeup.jpg>>
>
>         It is a "Nixdor 600 series" (Apparently a Nixdorf 620/35),
>         upgraded several times until 1980, the CPU board is dated from
>         this year. So I do not know exactly what machine it is today
>         the equivalent.
>
>         Anyway, the Nixdorf 620 is actually built by "Digital Computer
>         Controls" and after some researches it seems that it is a
>         "DCC-116 E", the 17 slot version of the "DCC-116" which Is a
>         clone of the "Data General Nova 2/10".
>
>         http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/DCC.jpg
>         <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/DCC.jpg>
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/DCC.jpg
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/DCC.jpg>>
>
>         The machine has five Key-stations (ENTREX DATA/SCOPE), a
>         Mag-tape Pertec 8840A - A Disk Cartridge Diablo Model 40 and a
>         big line drum printer (Data Products model 2230), strange
>         machine, there is a tape reader inside the printer.
>
>         Here is the list of the boards I have with the references
>         written on them and their position in the machine:
>
>         *17    HEX 0 ? 15                 ENTREX INC 62 00 01842 002
>         REV A*
>
>         *16    HEX 16 30 31             ENTREX INC 62 00 01842 002 REV A**
>         15    OPTION 2                  Empty**
>         14    OPTION 1                  Empty**
>         13    PRINTER                   ENTREX INC SN598**
>         12    TAPE 556/800 BPI     2433 LFI 213**
>         11    TAPE 1600 BPI          Empty**
>         10    DISK                           2456 00 MP-Kontroller
>         D44an620 6393500215 <tel:6393500215> 2456 7 0 1577**
>         09    COMMO                     Empty**
>         08    SCANNER                  Scanner BD 2431 NCAG 54147.1.15
>         2431 02394**
>         07    MEM                           1609 0 7 02616**
>         06    MEM                           Empty**
>         05    MEM                           1609 0 8 02367**
>         04    MEM                           1615 01 9 5596**
>         03    TTY                             Empty**
>         02    DO NOT USE             Empty**
>         01    C.P.                              1509 05 4 04436*
>
>         Concerning this I also ask a few questions:
>
>          *
>
>            What are the boards in slots 16 and 17 for?
>
>          *
>
>            I do not have a COM card, does that mean that I could not
>         attempt a
>            serial transmission (type rs232) with this actual setup ?
>
>          *
>
>            I have no idea how many kilobytes are present, apparently
>         there are
>            two core memory cards (8kb each? 16Kb each?), And non-core
>         RAM board.
>
>         I first solved a problem with the power supply of the disk
>         pack (bad HF filter, short-circuited with the chassis, then it
>         is also dead HF filter in the "multi-plug" of the chassis that
>         start to burn, once these problems were solved, I cleaned the
>         machine thoroughly, cleaning the heads of readings with
>         isopropyl alcohol, I Not yet cleaned the disc himself which at
>         first glance looks extremely clean, it has not left the
>         machine for 30 years.
>
>         http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/disckpack01.jpg
>         <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/disckpack01.jpg>
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/disckpack01.jpg
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/disckpack01.jpg>>
>
>         I cleaned all the guides and the heads of the nine track tape
>         Pertec 8840A. There was also a false contact in the ON-LINE
>         button. I did a first cleanup. I think there is always a
>         problem with the HI-DEN button used to set the magtape to
>         800BPI. It is currently ineffective, but I have a doubt about
>         the contacts of the lamp socket).
>
>         http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/ninetrack.jpg
>         <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/ninetrack.jpg>
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/ninetrack.jpg
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/ninetrack.jpg>>
>
>         I then cleaned all the sockets and contacts at the boards of
>         the computer (logic and PSU)
>
>         http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/clean_contact.jpg
>         <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/clean_contact.jpg>
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/clean_contact.jpg
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/clean_contact.jpg>>
>
>
>         Unfortunately, after a couple of hours, the "POWER FAIL" light
>         has started to light up. The problem here is that I have no
>         schematics, it is a modular power supply consisting of two
>         elements:
>
>         http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psus.jpg
>         <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psus.jpg>
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psus.jpg
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psus.jpg>>
>
>         One seems to be dedicated to the 15 VDC regulated, the second
>         module is in charge of the regulated 5VDC. Both elements have
>         a "Power fail module". When the machine is completely
>         populated I now observe that the + 5VDC collapses at +1,9VDC.
>
>         Here what I measured out, you will also see what the boards of
>         these power supply look like.
>
>         http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_1.jpg
>         <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_1.jpg>
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_1.jpg
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_1.jpg>>
>
>         http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_2.jpg
>         <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_2.jpg>
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_2.jpg
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_2.jpg>>
>
>         Another thing I noted during my measurements, where I should
>         (I think) measure 15V, I have 18V, looking at the
>         documentation on the NOVA 2 (4 slots), I observed according to
>         the diagrams below That there is 18V but before a zener diode
>         and not at the level of connectors where there must be 15VDC,
>         should I warn me ? Would the diode be dead ?
>
>         I tried to join temporarily a secondary regulated power supply
>         to reinforce the + 5VDC so as to be sure that the problem did
>         not come from the logical part of the computer which checks
>         these voltages and triggers the Power Fail status. By coupling
>         this external regulated power supply, the computer restarts
>         again, thus it is definitively the power supply (or the
>         comparator component(s) of the power fail module)
>
>         If I removes all the boards (printer, core memory, scanner,
>         disk controller, etc.), the Power Fail light eventually goes
>         out, I get again the 5VDC, so the power has become "too weak"
>         to power the computer when it is fully populated.
>
>         Despite the temporary (and dangerous) look of my assembly with
>         secondary power supply, I could not stop myself and attempt a
>         boot procedure via the Cold Start button of the machine from
>         the Disk Pack, and it works! :-)
>
>         http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/first_boot.jpg
>         <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/first_boot.jpg>
>
>         It seems that I still have problems with the magtape, I had
>         errors trying to read a backup, but it may be simply because I
>         still cannot get the machine in 800BPI because of the
>         capricious buttons of the front panel. I also wrote a tape
>         mark via a "WRITE TAPE MARK AND REWIND" function, the mark
>         seems to be written but does not do the Rewind, however if I
>         launch a REWIND only function, it executes the action
>         appropriately. In short, still things to investigate on this side.
>
>         Notes that the Operating system I used to make these tests is
>         a very limited OS named DIDOS which was distributed by Nixdorf
>         for his 620 Serie. As the machine is a clone of DG NOVA 2/10,
>         I wonder if the computer is compatible with programs for the
>         NOVA series of Data General? So I wonder if the DCC-116 was
>         compatible with the software for NOVAs?
>
>         The other questions I ask myself at this point are the ways to
>         transfer softwares or bootable OS on this machine? I have no
>         other disk pack on another system but I have a nine track tape
>         TU81 + connected to a VAX 4000-605A under OpenVMS 6.2, and I
>         can put this computer on my network. Do you think there's a
>         way to make a bootable tape for my NOVA 2 clone with the
>         Pertec 8840A from a VAX 4000 with a TU81+ ?
>
>         Well, to continue, I have to repair this PSU, all information
>         is welcome, schematics would be ideal of course.
>
>         Finally, note that I am not a professional electronics
>         technician, I fixed a lot of machines basic knowledge,
>         intuition, researches, comparisons and logic, it is effective
>         but full of limitations too, so forgive me in advance If I do
>         not always understand the possible answers of electronics in
>         "high engineering" mode ;-)
>
>         As a bonus, the V1 of a small video mounted with a few clips
>         captured during a session of my nocturnal repairs, during the
>         first boot of the machine since 3 decades ! (on my music, yes,
>         I'm also a composer ;-) )
>
>         https://youtu.be/5jWOUtLKRIU
>
>         Thanks a lot to all in advance ;-)
>
>         Dominique
>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>
>     Thanks,
>     AJ Palmgren
>     http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck
>     https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283
>     <https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283>
>     https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/
>     <https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
>
> Thanks,
> AJ Palmgren
> http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck
> https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/
>


From systems.glitch at gmail.com  Thu May 18 08:14:24 2017
From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 09:14:24 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB1302119A65F48911358AAAEEEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN3PR01MB1302119A65F48911358AAAEEEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <20170518091424.33a326ef967764f6059fe1bc@gmail.com>

> BSD 2.11 should run fine on a 34 or 23

You need split I&D for 2.11BSD, that rules out the 11/23 and IIRC the 11/34 as well. I want to say 2.9BSD will run though.

Thanks,
Jonathan

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu May 18 08:17:08 2017
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 06:17:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>

On Wed, 17 May 2017, william degnan via cctalk wrote:

> There may have been Rainbow BBS programs, but I doubt anything for the
> 11/34.  You may have to write this.

That reminds me of a bit of obscure trivia...

Back in the early days of FidoNet, one or more of the Fido BBS sysops had 
DEC Rainbows.  The machines could run Fido just fine, but the serial port 
address/port didn't follow the convention laid down by the IBM PC.  At the 
time, there were other MS-DOS compatibles that also had a similar issue 
with the serial port and some of those folks wanted to run Fido.

Tom Jennings, Wynn Waggoner III(sp?) and Thom Henderson(sp?) got together 
to create the FOSSIL standard.

FOSSIL is Fido Opus Seadog Serial Interface Layer and provided a mechanism 
via INT 14 for any MS-DOS compatible computer to run any BBS or mailer 
software that had FOSSIL support and a FOSSIL driver available for it.

FOSSIL continued to be a thing long after the issue of serial port 
incompatibility was a thing of the past.  In fact there's modern software 
out there now such as NetFossil that telnet-enables software that can talk 
to a FOSSIL driver.

The two popular FOSSIL drivers that I recall from back in the day were 
BNU and Ray Gwinn's X00.

As an aside, if anyone has or knows where I can find the source code for 
Opus BBS, I'd be interested in hearing from you!

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From dce at skynet.be  Thu May 18 08:21:50 2017
From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 15:21:50 +0200
Subject: DCC-116 E / DATA GENERAL NOVA 2/10 / Nixdorf 620 - Restoring and
 restarting
In-Reply-To: <CANyxsh9k=3mAjVs+sFpz4febcDYqoy7ntVh5UP15oV+uCXc+-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8ea3d9cf-9e2e-08f2-9af4-4d605ba40dc5@skynet.be>
 <CANyxsh9k=3mAjVs+sFpz4febcDYqoy7ntVh5UP15oV+uCXc+-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8ad083e6-acae-8eca-a638-6d7bb0121121@skynet.be>

Hi all,

Sorry for this long wait. Because of some family problems combined with 
a big professional project I had to put this project on hold. However I 
intend to continue this restoration with detailed photos and all the 
continuation of the adventure with a lot of informations ;-)

Since my lasts posts on cctalk I received the schematics of a DG Nova 
1200, all the information I needed to repair the power supply are in 
this documentation. However it is a very complex system of voltage 
regulation and because I am not a professional electronics technician, I 
have not yet found the origin of the power loss that results in the 
state of "Power Fail" (To be precise : it is when the computer is 
populated with more than 2 or 3 boards. Any board).

It is also because i have not currently enough time to search the 
problem in "blind mode" : De-solder all the transistors to search and 
evaluate a possible leaking, replace all the suspect capacitor (just to 
replace the big ones it cost more than 200$) etc..

But be patient ;-) I'm determined to continue the adventure soon as 
possible.

Thanks for your interest !

Dominique


On 18/05/2017 05:29, AJ Palmgren wrote:
> Dominique,
>
> I'm quite interested in seeing your Entrex/Nixdorf system restored.  
> Please keep us updated here.  Nice work saving these rare items!
>
> I've done some of my own work restoring a DG Nova-type system.  ( 
> http://Point4iris.com ). I'd love to see if there's any way I could help.
>
> I'll read Christian Kennedy's response here, as he seems FAR more 
> familiar and knowledgeable than I am here, but if I can add value in 
> any way, I would love to.
>
> Best,
> -AJ
>
> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk 
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>
>     Hi guys !
>
>     My name is Dominique, 43 , from Belgium (I apologize in advance
>     for my approximate English). I join this forum under the
>     recommendations of Curious Marc. It seems there are people here
>     who can help me to get back to life the venerable machine that I
>     have just recovered.
>
>     Some pictures of the beast :
>
>     http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/overview01.jpg
>     <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/overview01.jpg>
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/overview01.jpg
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/overview01.jpg>>
>
>     http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/terminal.jpg
>     <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/terminal.jpg>
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/terminal.jpg
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/terminal.jpg>>
>
>     http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/comrack_closeup.jpg
>     <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/comrack_closeup.jpg>
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/comrack_closeup.jpg
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/comrack_closeup.jpg>>
>
>     It is a "Nixdor 600 series" (Apparently a Nixdorf 620/35),
>     upgraded several times until 1980, the CPU board is dated from
>     this year. So I do not know exactly what machine it is today the
>     equivalent.
>
>     Anyway, the Nixdorf 620 is actually built by "Digital Computer
>     Controls" and after some researches it seems that it is a "DCC-116
>     E", the 17 slot version of the "DCC-116" which Is a clone of the
>     "Data General Nova 2/10".
>
>     http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/DCC.jpg
>     <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/DCC.jpg>
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/DCC.jpg
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/DCC.jpg>>
>
>     The machine has five Key-stations (ENTREX DATA/SCOPE), a Mag-tape
>     Pertec 8840A - A Disk Cartridge Diablo Model 40 and a big line
>     drum printer (Data Products model 2230), strange machine, there is
>     a tape reader inside the printer.
>
>     Here is the list of the boards I have with the references written
>     on them and their position in the machine:
>
>     *17    HEX 0 ? 15                 ENTREX INC 62 00 01842 002 REV A*
>
>     *16    HEX 16 30 31             ENTREX INC 62 00 01842 002 REV A**
>     15    OPTION 2                  Empty**
>     14    OPTION 1                  Empty**
>     13    PRINTER                   ENTREX INC SN598**
>     12    TAPE 556/800 BPI     2433 LFI 213**
>     11    TAPE 1600 BPI          Empty**
>     10    DISK                           2456 00 MP-Kontroller
>     D44an620 6393500215 <tel:6393500215> 2456 7 0 1577**
>     09    COMMO                     Empty**
>     08    SCANNER                  Scanner BD 2431 NCAG 54147.1.15
>     2431 02394**
>     07    MEM                           1609 0 7 02616**
>     06    MEM                           Empty**
>     05    MEM                           1609 0 8 02367**
>     04    MEM                           1615 01 9 5596**
>     03    TTY                             Empty**
>     02    DO NOT USE             Empty**
>     01    C.P.                              1509 05 4 04436*
>
>     Concerning this I also ask a few questions:
>
>      *
>
>        What are the boards in slots 16 and 17 for?
>
>      *
>
>        I do not have a COM card, does that mean that I could not attempt a
>        serial transmission (type rs232) with this actual setup ?
>
>      *
>
>        I have no idea how many kilobytes are present, apparently there are
>        two core memory cards (8kb each? 16Kb each?), And non-core RAM
>     board.
>
>     I first solved a problem with the power supply of the disk pack
>     (bad HF filter, short-circuited with the chassis, then it is also
>     dead HF filter in the "multi-plug" of the chassis that start to
>     burn, once these problems were solved, I cleaned the machine
>     thoroughly, cleaning the heads of readings with isopropyl alcohol,
>     I Not yet cleaned the disc himself which at first glance looks
>     extremely clean, it has not left the machine for 30 years.
>
>     http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/disckpack01.jpg
>     <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/disckpack01.jpg>
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/disckpack01.jpg
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/disckpack01.jpg>>
>
>     I cleaned all the guides and the heads of the nine track tape
>     Pertec 8840A. There was also a false contact in the ON-LINE
>     button. I did a first cleanup. I think there is always a problem
>     with the HI-DEN button used to set the magtape to 800BPI. It is
>     currently ineffective, but I have a doubt about the contacts of
>     the lamp socket).
>
>     http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/ninetrack.jpg
>     <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/ninetrack.jpg>
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/ninetrack.jpg
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/ninetrack.jpg>>
>
>     I then cleaned all the sockets and contacts at the boards of the
>     computer (logic and PSU)
>
>     http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/clean_contact.jpg
>     <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/clean_contact.jpg>
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/clean_contact.jpg
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/clean_contact.jpg>>
>
>
>     Unfortunately, after a couple of hours, the "POWER FAIL" light has
>     started to light up. The problem here is that I have no
>     schematics, it is a modular power supply consisting of two elements:
>
>     http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psus.jpg
>     <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psus.jpg>
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psus.jpg
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psus.jpg>>
>
>     One seems to be dedicated to the 15 VDC regulated, the second
>     module is in charge of the regulated 5VDC. Both elements have a
>     "Power fail module". When the machine is completely populated I
>     now observe that the + 5VDC collapses at +1,9VDC.
>
>     Here what I measured out, you will also see what the boards of
>     these power supply look like.
>
>     http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_1.jpg
>     <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_1.jpg>
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_1.jpg
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_1.jpg>>
>
>     http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_2.jpg
>     <http://www.actingmachines.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_2.jpg>
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_2.jpg
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/psu_module_2.jpg>>
>
>     Another thing I noted during my measurements, where I should (I
>     think) measure 15V, I have 18V, looking at the documentation on
>     the NOVA 2 (4 slots), I observed according to the diagrams below
>     That there is 18V but before a zener diode and not at the level of
>     connectors where there must be 15VDC, should I warn me ? Would the
>     diode be dead ?
>
>     I tried to join temporarily a secondary regulated power supply to
>     reinforce the + 5VDC so as to be sure that the problem did not
>     come from the logical part of the computer which checks these
>     voltages and triggers the Power Fail status. By coupling this
>     external regulated power supply, the computer restarts again, thus
>     it is definitively the power supply (or the comparator
>     component(s) of the power fail module)
>
>     If I removes all the boards (printer, core memory, scanner, disk
>     controller, etc.), the Power Fail light eventually goes out, I get
>     again the 5VDC, so the power has become "too weak" to power the
>     computer when it is fully populated.
>
>     Despite the temporary (and dangerous) look of my assembly with
>     secondary power supply, I could not stop myself and attempt a boot
>     procedure via the Cold Start button of the machine from the Disk
>     Pack, and it works! :-)
>
>     http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/first_boot.jpg
>     <http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/first_boot.jpg>
>
>     It seems that I still have problems with the magtape, I had errors
>     trying to read a backup, but it may be simply because I still
>     cannot get the machine in 800BPI because of the capricious buttons
>     of the front panel. I also wrote a tape mark via a "WRITE TAPE
>     MARK AND REWIND" function, the mark seems to be written but does
>     not do the Rewind, however if I launch a REWIND only function, it
>     executes the action appropriately. In short, still things to
>     investigate on this side.
>
>     Notes that the Operating system I used to make these tests is a
>     very limited OS named DIDOS which was distributed by Nixdorf for
>     his 620 Serie. As the machine is a clone of DG NOVA 2/10, I wonder
>     if the computer is compatible with programs for the NOVA series of
>     Data General? So I wonder if the DCC-116 was compatible with the
>     software for NOVAs?
>
>     The other questions I ask myself at this point are the ways to
>     transfer softwares or bootable OS on this machine? I have no other
>     disk pack on another system but I have a nine track tape TU81 +
>     connected to a VAX 4000-605A under OpenVMS 6.2, and I can put this
>     computer on my network. Do you think there's a way to make a
>     bootable tape for my NOVA 2 clone with the Pertec 8840A from a VAX
>     4000 with a TU81+ ?
>
>     Well, to continue, I have to repair this PSU, all information is
>     welcome, schematics would be ideal of course.
>
>     Finally, note that I am not a professional electronics technician,
>     I fixed a lot of machines basic knowledge, intuition, researches,
>     comparisons and logic, it is effective but full of limitations
>     too, so forgive me in advance If I do not always understand the
>     possible answers of electronics in "high engineering" mode ;-)
>
>     As a bonus, the V1 of a small video mounted with a few clips
>     captured during a session of my nocturnal repairs, during the
>     first boot of the machine since 3 decades ! (on my music, yes, I'm
>     also a composer ;-) )
>
>     https://youtu.be/5jWOUtLKRIU
>
>     Thanks a lot to all in advance ;-)
>
>     Dominique
>
>
>
>
> -- 
>
> Thanks,
> AJ Palmgren
> http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck
> https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/
>


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu May 18 08:45:15 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 09:45:15 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
>
> There may have been Rainbow BBS programs, but I doubt anything for the
>> 11/34.  You may have to write this.
>>
>
> That reminds me of a bit of obscure trivia...
>
> Back in the early days of FidoNet, one or more of the Fido BBS sysops had
> DEC Rainbows.  The machines could run Fido just fine, but the serial port
> address/port didn't follow the convention laid down by the IBM PC.  At the
> time, there were other MS-DOS compatibles that also had a similar issue
> with the serial port and some of those folks wanted to run Fido.
>
> Tom Jennings, Wynn Waggoner III(sp?) and Thom Henderson(sp?) got together
> to create the FOSSIL standard.
>
> FOSSIL is Fido Opus Seadog Serial Interface Layer and provided a mechanism
> via INT 14 for any MS-DOS compatible computer to run any BBS or mailer
> software that had FOSSIL support and a FOSSIL driver available for it.
>
> FOSSIL continued to be a thing long after the issue of serial port
> incompatibility was a thing of the past.  In fact there's modern software
> out there now such as NetFossil that telnet-enables software that can talk
> to a FOSSIL driver.
>
> The two popular FOSSIL drivers that I recall from back in the day were BNU
> and Ray Gwinn's X00.
>
> As an aside, if anyone has or knows where I can find the source code for
> Opus BBS, I'd be interested in hearing from you!
>
>
>
That's what I was thinking.  I have some FidoNET files and mail from the
Rainbow.  My guess the BBS would have been written in Pascal or C if for
the Rainbow (guess only) so if you wanted to attempt to port, after you
find a Rainbow BBS?  I'd start with a Rainbow BBS disassembly/decompile and
see if you can convert to the PDP 11 running the same language/compile it.

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu May 18 08:55:30 2017
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 06:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <f75e497b-f7fa-1bcd-de43-114a311367e5@jwsss.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f75e497b-f7fa-1bcd-de43-114a311367e5@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180654070.11566@deltasoft.com>

On Wed, 17 May 2017, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:

> If someone had done such, it might have been in boardwatch if anywhere.  I 
> tossed tons of those in previous moves, so can't help with that.  Plus as has 
> been stated it would have been rare, and looking  thru paper copies would be 
> a long process and probably turn up little.
>
> hopefully if you find Boardwatch digitally somewhere, or information derived 
> from there you can turn up some things.
>
http://www.bombjack.org/generic/generic-magazines-telecommunications.htm

If anyone out there reading this has more copies of Boardwatch or those 
other magazines, please consider sending them to bombjack.org for 
scanning.  He does excellent non-destructive scanning.

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu May 18 09:10:59 2017
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 07:10:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180708430.11566@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 18 May 2017, william degnan wrote:

>>
>>
> That's what I was thinking.  I have some FidoNET files and mail from the
> Rainbow.  My guess the BBS would have been written in Pascal or C if for
> the Rainbow (guess only) so if you wanted to attempt to port, after you
> find a Rainbow BBS?  I'd start with a Rainbow BBS disassembly/decompile and
> see if you can convert to the PDP 11 running the same language/compile it.
>
Well a Rainbow specific bbs program isn't going to really help him at all 
- technically, any bbs source he can find in a language that's available 
on the 11/34 could be used for the purposes of porting.

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu May 18 09:59:26 2017
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 10:59:26 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <20170518091424.33a326ef967764f6059fe1bc@gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN3PR01MB1302119A65F48911358AAAEEEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <20170518091424.33a326ef967764f6059fe1bc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=8HF6F8EoF6KA6gTEM5CHdQSECRXnfZL94t+09_qCdtw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Systems Glitch via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> BSD 2.11 should run fine on a 34 or 23
>
> You need split I&D for 2.11BSD, that rules out the 11/23 and IIRC the 11/34 as well.

Yep.

> I want to say 2.9BSD will run though.

Yep, but you might not be happy running it on the 11/34 since it's
limited to 248K of RAM (back in the day, I ran 2.9BSD on an 11/24
because it was Unibus and I could put a couple of MB in it).  It will
install and boot and run, but be tight.  Same goes for using an RL02
as the install volume.  You can install to it but it's really not
enough space to install everything and recompile the kernel.  RK07 is
fine.

-ethan

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Thu May 18 10:02:32 2017
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 17:02:32 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB1302119A65F48911358AAAEEEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN3PR01MB1302119A65F48911358AAAEEEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1705181700560.17522@linuxserv.home>

On Thu, 18 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> would preclude this.  I did it on a SYS III Xenix clone).  BSD 2.11 
> should run fine on a 34 or 23 and there is always Ultrix-11 which I have

No, it doesn't. 2.9BSD, yes, but not 2.11BSD as it requires split I/D and 
more than 128 kwords of memory.

Christian

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Thu May 18 10:11:46 2017
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 17:11:46 +0200
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180606170.11566@deltasoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180606170.11566@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <20170518151146.GL20746@Update.UU.SE>

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 06:07:03AM -0700, geneb via cctalk wrote:
> 
> I'd be surprised if you did.  This is however, an excellent opportunity to
> write your own. :)  (At least to me, it would be a fun project.)
> 

FACEBK-11

*ducks*

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu May 18 10:28:08 2017
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 08:28:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <20170518151146.GL20746@Update.UU.SE>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180606170.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <20170518151146.GL20746@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180827480.16528@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 18 May 2017, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:

> On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 06:07:03AM -0700, geneb via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> I'd be surprised if you did.  This is however, an excellent opportunity to
>> write your own. :)  (At least to me, it would be a fun project.)
>>
>
> FACEBK-11
>
> *ducks*
>
You can run, but you can't hide. :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu May 18 10:28:52 2017
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 11:28:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
Message-ID: <20170518152852.5A92718C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Systems Glitch

    > You need split I&D for 2.11BSD

ISTR reading that the network code runs in Supervisor mode, so you need that
to, technically (although all -11s CPUs with Supervisor also have I+D, and
vice versa).

Does the 2.9 include networking code? If so, it must use overlays like
crazy on a 'small' machine (/40-/34/-/23)...

	Noel

From wilson at dbit.com  Thu May 18 10:37:51 2017
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 11:37:51 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <20170518063017.GA8438@dbit.dbit.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170518052615.GA7660@dbit.dbit.com>
 <f6705af9-4b7c-0bd6-8a7e-0098e66be496@btinternet.com>
 <20170518063017.GA8438@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-ID: <20170518153751.GA16608@dbit.dbit.com>

Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>As an RTS?  Wow, that's doing it the hard way.  In either RT or RSX
>emulation it would be easier, you have a friendlier development
>environment that way.  I've done an application as an RTS in the long-ago
>past (an implementation of QUBIC, 3D 4x4x4x tic-tac-toe for a classmate)
>but that was on V5B, where an RTS was the only way to do assembly
>programming on RSTS.

This was for the command-line interface, which I needed to be absolutely,
totally, seriously ^C and ^^C proof if I was going to let random outsiders
dial up my RSTS machine.  It worked nicely ...

John Wilson
D Bit

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Thu May 18 10:43:48 2017
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 16:43:48 +0100
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6dde0080-4d04-5e3a-c565-a148dead88f4@btinternet.com>



On 18/05/2017 14:45, william degnan via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>
>> There may have been Rainbow BBS programs, but I doubt anything for the
>>> 11/34.  You may have to write this.
>>>
>> That reminds me of a bit of obscure trivia...
>>
>> Back in the early days of FidoNet, one or more of the Fido BBS sysops had
>> DEC Rainbows.  The machines could run Fido just fine, but the serial port
>> address/port didn't follow the convention laid down by the IBM PC.  At the
>> time, there were other MS-DOS compatibles that also had a similar issue
>> with the serial port and some of those folks wanted to run Fido.
>>
>> Tom Jennings, Wynn Waggoner III(sp?) and Thom Henderson(sp?) got together
>> to create the FOSSIL standard.
>>
>> FOSSIL is Fido Opus Seadog Serial Interface Layer and provided a mechanism
>> via INT 14 for any MS-DOS compatible computer to run any BBS or mailer
>> software that had FOSSIL support and a FOSSIL driver available for it.
>>
>> FOSSIL continued to be a thing long after the issue of serial port
>> incompatibility was a thing of the past.  In fact there's modern software
>> out there now such as NetFossil that telnet-enables software that can talk
>> to a FOSSIL driver.
>>
>> The two popular FOSSIL drivers that I recall from back in the day were BNU
>> and Ray Gwinn's X00.
>>
>> As an aside, if anyone has or knows where I can find the source code for
>> Opus BBS, I'd be interested in hearing from you!
>>
>>
>>
> That's what I was thinking.  I have some FidoNET files and mail from the
> Rainbow.  My guess the BBS would have been written in Pascal or C if for
> the Rainbow (guess only) so if you wanted to attempt to port, after you
> find a Rainbow BBS?  I'd start with a Rainbow BBS disassembly/decompile and
> see if you can convert to the PDP 11 running the same language/compile it.
Tom wrote it in C .Lattice I think. He lost most of the source in a disk 
crash some years back.
I may a copy of the run time version on one of my Rainbows.

Rod

-- 
There is no wrong or right
Nor black and white.
Just darknessand light


From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Thu May 18 10:51:39 2017
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 08:51:39 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <20170518091424.33a326ef967764f6059fe1bc@gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN3PR01MB1302119A65F48911358AAAEEEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <20170518091424.33a326ef967764f6059fe1bc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170518085139.055391fa@asrock.bcwi.net>

On Thu, 18 May 2017 09:14:24 -0400
Systems Glitch via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > BSD 2.11 should run fine on a 34 or 23  
> 
> You need split I&D for 2.11BSD, that rules out the 11/23 and IIRC the
> 11/34 as well. I want to say 2.9BSD will run though.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jonathan

I run BSD 2.9 on my 11/34C (w/max. mem.) & DZ using (2) RL02s with up to
three TTY sessions. It's a bit "sluggish" (by today's standards). TSX
Plus with three TTY sessions runs much faster on the same hardware.

Cheers,
Lyle

-- 
73      AF6WS
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu May 18 10:55:49 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 11:55:49 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <20170518153751.GA16608@dbit.dbit.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170518052615.GA7660@dbit.dbit.com>
 <f6705af9-4b7c-0bd6-8a7e-0098e66be496@btinternet.com>
 <20170518063017.GA8438@dbit.dbit.com> <20170518153751.GA16608@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-ID: <C5767402-4174-433A-B647-47B75D78096A@comcast.net>


> On May 18, 2017, at 11:37 AM, John Wilson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> As an RTS?  Wow, that's doing it the hard way.  In either RT or RSX
>> emulation it would be easier, you have a friendlier development
>> environment that way.  I've done an application as an RTS in the long-ago
>> past (an implementation of QUBIC, 3D 4x4x4x tic-tac-toe for a classmate)
>> but that was on V5B, where an RTS was the only way to do assembly
>> programming on RSTS.
> 
> This was for the command-line interface, which I needed to be absolutely,
> totally, seriously ^C and ^^C proof if I was going to let random outsiders
> dial up my RSTS machine.  It worked nicely ...

Oh yes, that would be a possible reason.  Binary mode I/O will also do that, though at a price that may be too high.  Finally, in V9.0 and later, you can use a captive account to ensure that it can't escape the login.com file, which means that control/c may abort the program but it won't let the user into places you don't want to allow.

	paul



From allisonportable at gmail.com  Thu May 18 10:16:27 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 11:16:27 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>



On 5/18/17 9:45 AM, william degnan via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>
>> There may have been Rainbow BBS programs, but I doubt anything for the
>>> 11/34.  You may have to write this.
>>>
>> That reminds me of a bit of obscure trivia...
>>
>> Back in the early days of FidoNet, one or more of the Fido BBS sysops had
>> DEC Rainbows.  The machines could run Fido just fine, but the serial port
>> address/port didn't follow the convention laid down by the IBM PC.  At the
>> time, there were other MS-DOS compatibles that also had a similar issue
>> with the serial port and some of those folks wanted to run Fido.
>>
>> Tom Jennings, Wynn Waggoner III(sp?) and Thom Henderson(sp?) got together
>> to create the FOSSIL standard.
>>
>> FOSSIL is Fido Opus Seadog Serial Interface Layer and provided a mechanism
>> via INT 14 for any MS-DOS compatible computer to run any BBS or mailer
>> software that had FOSSIL support and a FOSSIL driver available for it.
>>
>> FOSSIL continued to be a thing long after the issue of serial port
>> incompatibility was a thing of the past.  In fact there's modern software
>> out there now such as NetFossil that telnet-enables software that can talk
>> to a FOSSIL driver.
>>
>> The two popular FOSSIL drivers that I recall from back in the day were BNU
>> and Ray Gwinn's X00.
>>
>> As an aside, if anyone has or knows where I can find the source code for
>> Opus BBS, I'd be interested in hearing from you!
>>
>>
>>
> That's what I was thinking.  I have some FidoNET files and mail from the
> Rainbow.  My guess the BBS would have been written in Pascal or C if for
> the Rainbow (guess only) so if you wanted to attempt to port, after you
> find a Rainbow BBS?  I'd start with a Rainbow BBS disassembly/decompile and
> see if you can convert to the PDP 11 running the same language/compile it.
Strongest comment on this is that a Rainbow ran DOS (like most PCs of 
the day)
and there was no security context and barely a foreground background as 
part
of DOS.

All a DOS BBS was  was a user interface that provided security by 
requiring user/password
and limiting the commands usable.  The easy was to do that was a version 
of the CMD module
rewritten to not have things like RMDIR and DEL.

FYI BBSs were running on CP/M z80 boxes before that using BYE.

The closest OS to DOS is RT11, no security and the FB monitor can do 
background.
IF the UI for RT11 was rewritten to disallow some utilities and what not 
it could then
stand as a limited BBS.    Myself I'd consider RSX or RSTS as a better 
platform as you can
easily control user prives and issue accounts based on privs with 
libraries for global
access to software.

The real question is why BBS?  What is it trying to fix or enable?

Allison


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu May 18 11:44:59 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 09:44:59 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>

On 05/18/2017 08:16 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:

> The real question is why BBS?  What is it trying to fix or enable?

You put the words into my mouth.  Thank you.

--Chuck


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Thu May 18 11:51:21 2017
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 11:51:21 -0500
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>

So a 11/03 aka a lsi11 would be to slow for such things? Such as those
Heathkit h11 lsi11 macheans? Witch was a hobyist pdp11 for those that are
unfamiliar with the hearhkits



On May 18, 2017 11:45 AM, "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 05/18/2017 08:16 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>
> > The real question is why BBS?  What is it trying to fix or enable?
>
> You put the words into my mouth.  Thank you.
>
> --Chuck
>
>

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu May 18 12:44:22 2017
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 10:44:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044130.19434@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 18 May 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> On 05/18/2017 08:16 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>
>> The real question is why BBS?  What is it trying to fix or enable?
>
> You put the words into my mouth.  Thank you.
>
Because.  That's why. :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu May 18 12:45:49 2017
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 10:45:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044520.19434@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 18 May 2017, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:

> So a 11/03 aka a lsi11 would be to slow for such things? Such as those
> Heathkit h11 lsi11 macheans? Witch was a hobyist pdp11 for those that are
> unfamiliar with the hearhkits

The machine is plenty fast.  There's been BBSes run on a VIC-20.  You 
can't get much slower than that. :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From tshoppa at wmata.com  Thu May 18 12:47:47 2017
From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 17:47:47 +0000
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11 
Message-ID: <BN6PR06MB32986B4E7672C2E33BDFE52DBAE40@BN6PR06MB3298.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

I know of several very different PDP-11 BBS's using very disparate architectures. Some were run on RT-11 or RSTS-11 entirely inside a BASIC program that managed every element of call answering, logging in, and disconnection. And others took advantage of TSX-11, RSX-11 and RSTS-11 login security and "captive accounts" that were either entirely menu-driven or had restricted command sets, with the menu options or command sets oriented strongly towards typical BBS functions.

I know Billy Youdelman's TSX-11 BBS in LA was operating in the 1980's and 1990's and may have gone on longer than that.

Tim N3QE

From mikew at thecomputervalet.com  Thu May 18 12:52:28 2017
From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 17:52:28 +0000
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044520.19434@deltasoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044520.19434@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CA+Tya0iQ89_bwP_BbTbGSXPCZ+9tZOfmCMz8KgRM4j+HOhKqsg@mail.gmail.com>

> The machine is plenty fast.  There's been BBSes run on a VIC-20.  You
> can't get much slower than that. :)
>
In New Orleans, there was a rumor someone ran a VIC-20 BBS with no
persistent storage.

Maybe true but you also might not be able to tell!

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Thu May 18 12:53:47 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 10:53:47 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>



On 5/18/2017 9:51 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> So a 11/03 aka a lsi11 would be to slow for such things? Such as those
> Heathkit h11 lsi11 macheans? Witch was a hobyist pdp11 for those that are
> unfamiliar with the hearhkits
>
My take and extension on Chuck's and Allison's question is that you can 
take a USB R232 dongle, and a 56k modem (if your pots line still 
supports it, 33k if not (hopefully), and run a BBS on a Raspberry Pi if 
nothing else for nothing in power and infrastructure cost.

An 11 is novel, but hard to see why running it on simh wouldn't be a 
better deal if you want something on the pdp11 architecture.

Keeping any PDP11 up 24 / 7 so it is a useful BBS isn't an undertaking 
for the faint hearted, nor is it something easy on the pocketbook in the 
way of power.  (not to mention space possibly).

Unless you are a couple of well known museums and others very few do the 
real hardware.
thanks
Jim
>
> On May 18, 2017 11:45 AM, "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On 05/18/2017 08:16 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> The real question is why BBS?  What is it trying to fix or enable?
>> You put the words into my mouth.  Thank you.
>>
>> --Chuck
>>
>>
>


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Thu May 18 12:55:23 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 10:55:23 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CA+Tya0iQ89_bwP_BbTbGSXPCZ+9tZOfmCMz8KgRM4j+HOhKqsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044520.19434@deltasoft.com>
 <CA+Tya0iQ89_bwP_BbTbGSXPCZ+9tZOfmCMz8KgRM4j+HOhKqsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33635a4b-46cc-12ac-fb42-f4c36bd0596d@jwsss.com>



On 5/18/2017 10:52 AM, Mike Whalen via cctalk wrote:
>> The machine is plenty fast.  There's been BBSes run on a VIC-20.  You
>> can't get much slower than that. :)
>>
> In New Orleans, there was a rumor someone ran a VIC-20 BBS with no
> persistent storage.
>
> Maybe true but you also might not be able to tell!
I don't recall the storage or the location, but I do recall some screen 
shots or publicity claiming that.

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Thu May 18 13:52:11 2017
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 11:52:11 -0700
Subject: AT&T Work Group System Voice Power voice processing boards for
 Unix PC 6300/7300 for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAHJBWnRV7ZKuoo87KaiaiNmkMm_8G95x4WkLyF0vVW-XQLckNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHJBWnRV7ZKuoo87KaiaiNmkMm_8G95x4WkLyF0vVW-XQLckNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWCaq_trxrtZr2S2yVzhi91g9fMNMRgg6w4VaaS8Y+cFbQ@mail.gmail.com>

These are clearly for a PC. It's an ISA card and says "386" on it.

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 9:53 PM, Sellam Ismail via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I have two of these available for sale. Details here:
>
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57816-AT-amp-T-
> Work-Group-System-Voice-Power-voice-processing-boards-for-
> Unix-PC-6300-7300&p=461052#post461052
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sellam
>



-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Thu May 18 13:56:13 2017
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 11:56:13 -0700
Subject: AT&T Work Group System Voice Power voice processing boards for
 Unix PC 6300/7300 for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWCaq_trxrtZr2S2yVzhi91g9fMNMRgg6w4VaaS8Y+cFbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHJBWnRV7ZKuoo87KaiaiNmkMm_8G95x4WkLyF0vVW-XQLckNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHQ+QWCaq_trxrtZr2S2yVzhi91g9fMNMRgg6w4VaaS8Y+cFbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWAHig86YjiUn-Mea2GRmz55ThAYngHX=r404yzzbYB+nA@mail.gmail.com>

Do not buy these expecting the UnixPC product, like Sellam has specified.
They are for a 386 intel/isa machine.

Also in the title, which is confusing, Sellam has also written 6300, which
is an AT&T 8086 PC clone that MAY have ISA and is not a UnixPC. It will
*also* not support this card as a 386 is required.

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Ian Finder <ian.finder at gmail.com> wrote:

> These are clearly for a PC. It's an ISA card and says "386" on it.
>
> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 9:53 PM, Sellam Ismail via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> I have two of these available for sale. Details here:
>>
>> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57816-AT-amp-T-Wor
>> k-Group-System-Voice-Power-voice-processing-boards-for-Unix-
>> PC-6300-7300&p=461052#post461052
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Sellam
>>
>
>
>
> --
>    Ian Finder
>    (206) 395-MIPS
>    ian.finder at gmail.com
>



-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu May 18 14:07:30 2017
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 12:07:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CA+Tya0iQ89_bwP_BbTbGSXPCZ+9tZOfmCMz8KgRM4j+HOhKqsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044520.19434@deltasoft.com>
 <CA+Tya0iQ89_bwP_BbTbGSXPCZ+9tZOfmCMz8KgRM4j+HOhKqsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181207190.19709@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 18 May 2017, Mike Whalen wrote:

>> The machine is plenty fast.  There's been BBSes run on a VIC-20.  You
>> can't get much slower than that. :)
>>
> In New Orleans, there was a rumor someone ran a VIC-20 BBS with no
> persistent storage.
>
> Maybe true but you also might not be able to tell!
>
I seem to recall hearing the same thing.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Thu May 18 14:02:50 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 15:02:50 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bcb3bd15-7f37-d6d0-74a0-76090a19ba62@gmail.com>



On 5/18/17 12:51 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> So a 11/03 aka a lsi11 would be to slow for such things? Such as those
> Heathkit h11 lsi11 macheans? Witch was a hobyist pdp11 for those that are
> unfamiliar with the hearhkits
>
No,  BBSs were run with 4mhz Z80s...  compared to LSI-11 (H11 or PDP11/03)
The -11 is a bit faster.  The H11 was not slower, the ram used didn't inject
bus waits.

Actually the limiting item back then as disk performance.  The later 
hard disks
(rd50 to 54, RD31, RD32, RZxxx) really can help.

Allison

>
> On May 18, 2017 11:45 AM, "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On 05/18/2017 08:16 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> The real question is why BBS?  What is it trying to fix or enable?
>> You put the words into my mouth.  Thank you.
>>
>> --Chuck
>>
>>


From sellam.ismail at gmail.com  Thu May 18 14:04:12 2017
From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 12:04:12 -0700
Subject: AT&T Work Group System Voice Power voice processing boards for
 Unix PC 6300/7300 for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWAHig86YjiUn-Mea2GRmz55ThAYngHX=r404yzzbYB+nA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHJBWnRV7ZKuoo87KaiaiNmkMm_8G95x4WkLyF0vVW-XQLckNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHQ+QWCaq_trxrtZr2S2yVzhi91g9fMNMRgg6w4VaaS8Y+cFbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHQ+QWAHig86YjiUn-Mea2GRmz55ThAYngHX=r404yzzbYB+nA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHJBWnTeNcse9Bxf8CfC2U_O03Hd2tSnw9i1OXManRLozLaXgg@mail.gmail.com>

Forgive me, Ian is correct. I made some assumptions about these boards that
I had from when I first acquired them: that they naturally worked in the
AT&T Unix PCs.

It turns out they do in fact operate in a DOS environment. Here's a blurb
about them from 1988:

https://books.google.com/books?id=5z4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=at%26t+work+group+system+voice+power&source=bl&ots=fsvhFQxsdY&sig=KgEw4u1p_Ev8AyyYGNR-uYrtSDA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjN7cyMkPrTAhUU-mMKHYQNCuEQ6AEIHzAB#v=onepage&q=at%26t%20work%20group%20system%20voice%20power&f=false

Thanks for the correction, Ian.

Sellam

On May 18, 2017 11:56 AM, "Ian Finder" <ian.finder at gmail.com> wrote:

> Do not buy these expecting the UnixPC product, like Sellam has specified.
> They are for a 386 intel/isa machine.
>
> Also in the title, which is confusing, Sellam has also written 6300, which
> is an AT&T 8086 PC clone that MAY have ISA and is not a UnixPC. It will
> *also* not support this card as a 386 is required.
>
> On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Ian Finder <ian.finder at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> These are clearly for a PC. It's an ISA card and says "386" on it.
>>
>> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 9:53 PM, Sellam Ismail via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I have two of these available for sale. Details here:
>>>
>>> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57816-AT-amp-T-Wor
>>> k-Group-System-Voice-Power-voice-processing-boards-for-Unix-
>>> PC-6300-7300&p=461052#post461052
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Sellam
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>    Ian Finder
>>    (206) 395-MIPS
>>    ian.finder at gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
>    Ian Finder
>    (206) 395-MIPS
>    ian.finder at gmail.com
>

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Thu May 18 14:10:37 2017
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 19:10:37 +0000
Subject: AT&T Work Group System Voice Power voice processing boards for
 Unix PC 6300/7300 for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAHJBWnTeNcse9Bxf8CfC2U_O03Hd2tSnw9i1OXManRLozLaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHJBWnRV7ZKuoo87KaiaiNmkMm_8G95x4WkLyF0vVW-XQLckNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHQ+QWCaq_trxrtZr2S2yVzhi91g9fMNMRgg6w4VaaS8Y+cFbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHQ+QWAHig86YjiUn-Mea2GRmz55ThAYngHX=r404yzzbYB+nA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAHJBWnTeNcse9Bxf8CfC2U_O03Hd2tSnw9i1OXManRLozLaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLUPR19MB042045A0BFF86604DE085C9CFFE40@BLUPR19MB0420.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>

Thanks Sellam. Still a cool product but I got all excited for a second thinking you had found the Unix PC cards. :)

Hopefully someone can put them to good use now that the addressable market is much larger...



Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>

________________________________
From: Sellam Ismail <sellam.ismail at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 12:04:12 PM
To: Ian Finder
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: AT&T Work Group System Voice Power voice processing boards for Unix PC 6300/7300 for sale

Forgive me, Ian is correct. I made some assumptions about these boards that I had from when I first acquired them: that they naturally worked in the AT&T Unix PCs.

It turns out they do in fact operate in a DOS environment. Here's a blurb about them from 1988:

https://books.google.com/books?id=5z4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=at%26t+work+group+system+voice+power&source=bl&ots=fsvhFQxsdY&sig=KgEw4u1p_Ev8AyyYGNR-uYrtSDA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjN7cyMkPrTAhUU-mMKHYQNCuEQ6AEIHzAB#v=onepage&q=at%26t%20work%20group%20system%20voice%20power&f=false

Thanks for the correction, Ian.

Sellam

On May 18, 2017 11:56 AM, "Ian Finder" <ian.finder at gmail.com<mailto:ian.finder at gmail.com>> wrote:
Do not buy these expecting the UnixPC product, like Sellam has specified. They are for a 386 intel/isa machine.

Also in the title, which is confusing, Sellam has also written 6300, which is an AT&T 8086 PC clone that MAY have ISA and is not a UnixPC. It will *also* not support this card as a 386 is required.

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Ian Finder <ian.finder at gmail.com<mailto:ian.finder at gmail.com>> wrote:
These are clearly for a PC. It's an ISA card and says "386" on it.

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 9:53 PM, Sellam Ismail via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
I have two of these available for sale. Details here:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57816-AT-amp-T-Work-Group-System-Voice-Power-voice-processing-boards-for-Unix-PC-6300-7300&p=461052#post461052

Thanks!

Sellam



--
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com<mailto:ian.finder at gmail.com>



--
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com<mailto:ian.finder at gmail.com>

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu May 18 14:14:54 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 12:14:54 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044130.19434@deltasoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044130.19434@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <d457fccd-e908-5b20-b150-8d0adf1ed733@sydex.com>

On 05/18/2017 10:44 AM, geneb wrote:

> Because.  That's why. :)

Well, okay--but then let's be period-correct.  The PDP-11 dates from
1970, when, AFAIK, BBSes, if they existed, were far from what people
think they were.

I'm thinking of,say, Call Computer in Mountain View, frequented by the
HCC people.   300 baud, usually acoustic coupler-type (in 1970, the
implications of the Carterfone decision had just begun to set in.)

Mostly a real bulletin board in the sense of posting group messages.

That ran on what, an HP 3000?  And whatever happened to Alex?

--Chuck

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu May 18 14:19:34 2017
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 12:19:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <bcb3bd15-7f37-d6d0-74a0-76090a19ba62@gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <bcb3bd15-7f37-d6d0-74a0-76090a19ba62@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181212130.19709@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 18 May 2017, allison via cctalk wrote:

>
>
> On 5/18/17 12:51 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
>> So a 11/03 aka a lsi11 would be to slow for such things? Such as those
>> Heathkit h11 lsi11 macheans? Witch was a hobyist pdp11 for those that are
>> unfamiliar with the hearhkits
>> 
> No,  BBSs were run with 4mhz Z80s...  compared to LSI-11 (H11 or PDP11/03)
> The -11 is a bit faster.  The H11 was not slower, the ram used didn't inject
> bus waits.
>
...and 2Mhz Z-80s.  The first Citadel appeared on a bone stock H-89 with a 
pair of hard-sectored floppy drives.  I think Ward's original S-100 box 
was that clock or maybe slower, using an 8080.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu May 18 14:34:35 2017
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 15:34:35 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044520.19434@deltasoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044520.19434@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimm0pny-wjVaxrBWgdtYauUBhO2KETGvT3Xiiic6Y25AFw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 1:45 PM, geneb via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 May 2017, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
>
>> So a 11/03 aka a lsi11 would be to slow for such things?
>
> The machine is plenty fast.  There's been BBSes run on a VIC-20.  You can't
> get much slower than that. :)

The VIC-20 is just a 1MHz 6502.  Lots of machines at that performance
point, including the Apple II and Atari 400/800, used for BBSing.

-ethan

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu May 18 14:48:07 2017
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 15:48:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
Message-ID: <20170518194807.BC77418C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Chuck Guzis

    > Well, okay--but then let's be period-correct. The PDP-11 dates from
    > 1970, when, AFAIK, BBSes, if they existed, were far from what people
    > think they were.

You're thinking of the -11/20, released in 1970. But that was only the first
PDP-11 model; the -11/23 dates from 1979, and the last -11 model, the
/93-/94, was released in 1990.

	Noel

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Thu May 18 14:50:11 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 19:50:11 +0000
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>,
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB1302C15600E9F0C91BCDF09CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


Do you have any idea how many PDP-11's were used by NASA for things
like controlling deep space probes and putting men on the moon?  A BBS
is a vewry low demand task and could easily be handled by the smallest
of the LSI-11 family.

bill

________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Adrian Stoness via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 12:51 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11

So a 11/03 aka a lsi11 would be to slow for such things? Such as those
Heathkit h11 lsi11 macheans? Witch was a hobyist pdp11 for those that are
unfamiliar with the hearhkits



On May 18, 2017 11:45 AM, "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 05/18/2017 08:16 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>
> > The real question is why BBS?  What is it trying to fix or enable?
>
> You put the words into my mouth.  Thank you.
>
> --Chuck
>
>

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Thu May 18 14:50:59 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 19:50:59 +0000
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044520.19434@deltasoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044520.19434@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB13029734AB35FE1BD35C399CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>

COSMAC Elf?  :-)

bill
________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of geneb via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 1:45 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11

On Thu, 18 May 2017, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:

> So a 11/03 aka a lsi11 would be to slow for such things? Such as those
> Heathkit h11 lsi11 macheans? Witch was a hobyist pdp11 for those that are
> unfamiliar with the hearhkits

The machine is plenty fast.  There's been BBSes run on a VIC-20.  You
can't get much slower than that. :)

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Thu May 18 14:54:57 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 19:54:57 +0000
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of jim stephens via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 1:53 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11

On 5/18/2017 9:51 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> So a 11/03 aka a lsi11 would be to slow for such things? Such as those
> Heathkit h11 lsi11 macheans? Witch was a hobyist pdp11 for those that are
> unfamiliar with the hearhkits
>
My take and extension on Chuck's and Allison's question is that you can
take a USB R232 dongle, and a 56k modem (if your pots line still
supports it, 33k if not (hopefully), and run a BBS on a Raspberry Pi if
nothing else for nothing in power and infrastructure cost.

An 11 is novel, but hard to see why running it on simh wouldn't be a
better deal if you want something on the pdp11 architecture.

Keeping any PDP11 up 24 / 7 so it is a useful BBS isn't an undertaking
for the faint hearted, nor is it something easy on the pocketbook in the
way of power.  (not to mention space possibly).

Unless you are a couple of well known museums and others very few do the
real hardware.
_____________________________

I still do.  I have an 11/93 in a pedestal standing right next to me now.

As for power, if you  have a wife and/or kids, a PDP-11's power consumption
is not even above the noise floor in your electric bill. (Unless your trying to do
it with RA disks!!)

bill

From cctalk at ibm51xx.net  Thu May 18 14:58:20 2017
From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 12:58:20 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>

> As for power, if you  have a wife and/or kids, a PDP-11's power
> consumption is not even above the noise floor in your electric bill.
> (Unless your trying to do it with RA disks!!)
> 
> bill

Out of curiosity how much power do these wee beasties consume? 

-Ali


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Thu May 18 14:14:16 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 15:14:16 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <5ee8c895-e4bf-2692-2a55-7d86c9636261@gmail.com>



On 5/18/17 1:53 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
>
>
> On 5/18/2017 9:51 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
>> So a 11/03 aka a lsi11 would be to slow for such things? Such as those
>> Heathkit h11 lsi11 macheans? Witch was a hobyist pdp11 for those that 
>> are
>> unfamiliar with the hearhkits
>>
> My take and extension on Chuck's and Allison's question is that you 
> can take a USB R232 dongle, and a 56k modem (if your pots line still 
> supports it, 33k if not (hopefully), and run a BBS on a Raspberry Pi 
> if nothing else for nothing in power and infrastructure cost.
>
> An 11 is novel, but hard to see why running it on simh wouldn't be a 
> better deal if you want something on the pdp11 architecture.
>
> Keeping any PDP11 up 24 / 7 so it is a useful BBS isn't an undertaking 
> for the faint hearted, nor is it something easy on the pocketbook in 
> the way of power.  (not to mention space possibly).
>
Actually a 11/23 with RQDX (or scsi) hard disks can be one paltry BA23 
and fairly
low total power needs.  I have such a beast, MicroPDP-11, 11/23+, 4MB ram,
RQDX3 with RD52(31mb), RX33(5.25 two side floppy).  Its small and has 
the pedestal
case to it is in the corner of a bedroom with a VT320 ( and I think 
still I have a DF03).
  Sucks down about the same power as an old 486 loaded tower with about 
the same
disks (around 160-300W).   Qbus machine help with that.  One with an 
11/73 board
would be fast.

A larger machine with Rk, RL or RM drives will be power hungry.

IF VAX based, a 3100 or related series would do that with minimal pain.

Older boxen like 11/34 or 11/40 are going to suck down watts and need AC.

Allison
> Unless you are a couple of well known museums and others very few do 
> the real hardware.
> thanks
> Jim
>>
>> On May 18, 2017 11:45 AM, "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" 
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/18/2017 08:16 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>>>
>>>> The real question is why BBS?  What is it trying to fix or enable?
>>> You put the words into my mouth.  Thank you.
>>>
>>> --Chuck
>>>
>>>
>>
>


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Thu May 18 14:27:13 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 15:27:13 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <d457fccd-e908-5b20-b150-8d0adf1ed733@sydex.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044130.19434@deltasoft.com>
 <d457fccd-e908-5b20-b150-8d0adf1ed733@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <f02ce24c-e151-04ca-2a30-49cbea849401@gmail.com>



On 5/18/17 3:14 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 05/18/2017 10:44 AM, geneb wrote:
>
>> Because.  That's why. :)
> Well, okay--but then let's be period-correct.  The PDP-11 dates from
> 1970, when, AFAIK, BBSes, if they existed, were far from what people
> think they were.
>
> I'm thinking of,say, Call Computer in Mountain View, frequented by the
> HCC people.   300 baud, usually acoustic coupler-type (in 1970, the
> implications of the Carterfone decision had just begun to set in.)
>
> Mostly a real bulletin board in the sense of posting group messages.
>
> That ran on what, an HP 3000?  And whatever happened to Alex?
>
> --Chuck
BBSs are really the thing from about 1978 to pre-internet (varied where 
you lived).
Examples of the big BBS are Source, Delphi, Well, STD(software tool and 
die), and
the big one Compuserve.  Small ones like Sage and those mentioned by 
inference
on the Walnutcreek CD are the more common small guys.

BBSs sorta were the big deal around 1980 to 19?? and the early ones were 
mostly '
Either Z80 or 6502 based with a few others of the era.  PCs were later 
and kept it
going.  They didn't offer speed but they were the platform of the day 
and during
the clone wars (Tandy, and others) offered cheaper hardware it moved there.

Never forget, BBS were about storage and cheap which at that time were 
mostly
opposed (disks weren't cheap!).  The amount of Ram and CPU were less 
important
considering what had to be done.  Often the modem and hard disk were as 
costly
as the basic system and we didn't exceed 2400 baud till '85or later.  
Most anything
could keep up with IO at under 4800 baud.



Allison

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Thu May 18 14:36:46 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 15:36:46 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181212130.19709@deltasoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <bcb3bd15-7f37-d6d0-74a0-76090a19ba62@gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181212130.19709@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <3134761b-f8ae-e123-fcc8-5e11814fa4a7@gmail.com>



On 5/18/17 3:19 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote:
> On Thu, 18 May 2017, allison via cctalk wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 5/18/17 12:51 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
>>> So a 11/03 aka a lsi11 would be to slow for such things? Such as those
>>> Heathkit h11 lsi11 macheans? Witch was a hobyist pdp11 for those 
>>> that are
>>> unfamiliar with the hearhkits
>>>
>> No,  BBSs were run with 4mhz Z80s...  compared to LSI-11 (H11 or 
>> PDP11/03)
>> The -11 is a bit faster.  The H11 was not slower, the ram used didn't 
>> inject
>> bus waits.
>>
> ...and 2Mhz Z-80s.  The first Citadel appeared on a bone stock H-89 
> with a pair of hard-sectored floppy drives.  I think Ward's original 
> S-100 box was that clock or maybe slower, using an 8080.
>
Wards S100 crate started with a 2mhz 8080 and not a full rack of ram 
(64K for then was full rack.).
Most moved to Z80 at 4MHZ by 1979 as they were common by then.

The speed needed to handle one line at speeds below 2400 was not a 
stress, there were 6800
based boards.

Allison

> g.
>


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Thu May 18 15:06:31 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 20:06:31 +0000
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>,
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Ali via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 3:58 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: RE: BBS software for the PDP 11

> As for power, if you  have a wife and/or kids, a PDP-11's power
> consumption is not even above the noise floor in your electric bill.
> (Unless your trying to do it with RA disks!!)
>
> bill

Out of curiosity how much power do these wee beasties consume?

___________________________________

The plate on the back of my 11/93 says 345 Watts.  That's about a fifth what your
wifes hair dryer draws.  Or slightly more than 3 100 watt light bulbs (which your
kids leave on all over the house all the time!!)

bill

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu May 18 15:19:57 2017
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 13:19:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181310120.25621@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 18 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

> As for power, if you have a wife and/or kids, a PDP-11's power 
> consumption is not even above the noise floor in your electric bill. 
> (Unless your trying to do it with RA disks!!)

I used to have an 8250 with four RA-81s and a TU-81+.  The power bills 
were....impressive. :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu May 18 15:23:07 2017
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 13:23:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <f02ce24c-e151-04ca-2a30-49cbea849401@gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044130.19434@deltasoft.com>
 <d457fccd-e908-5b20-b150-8d0adf1ed733@sydex.com>
 <f02ce24c-e151-04ca-2a30-49cbea849401@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181321530.25621@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 18 May 2017, allison via cctalk wrote:

> Never forget, BBS were about storage and cheap which at that time were mostly
> opposed (disks weren't cheap!).  The amount of Ram and CPU were less 
> important
> considering what had to be done.  Often the modem and hard disk were as 
> costly
> as the basic system and we didn't exceed 2400 baud till '85or later.  Most 
> anything
> could keep up with IO at under 4800 baud.
>
Here's what amounts to a canonnical(sp?) list of BBS programs for a number 
of different platforms:

http://software.bbsdocumentary.com/

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu May 18 15:45:30 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 13:45:30 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <f02ce24c-e151-04ca-2a30-49cbea849401@gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044130.19434@deltasoft.com>
 <d457fccd-e908-5b20-b150-8d0adf1ed733@sydex.com>
 <f02ce24c-e151-04ca-2a30-49cbea849401@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <377a0cda-1fb7-4abc-e028-1a1d30b73ae7@sydex.com>

On 05/18/2017 12:27 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:

> BBSs are really the thing from about 1978 to pre-internet (varied
> where you lived). Examples of the big BBS are Source, Delphi, Well,
> STD(software tool and die), and the big one Compuserve.  Small ones
> like Sage and those mentioned by inference on the Walnutcreek CD are
> the more common small guys.

I know--I ran one myself initially with an MS-DOS base and eventually
with an NT 4.0 one.  USR Couriers.

My point is that if you're talking about making something that resembles
something that was done on a PC (286/386/486), why not use a PC?

8-bit x80 BBS were generally along the lines of BYE510 affairs and were
pretty clunky.

Anyone remember Boardwatch magazine?

--Chuck


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Thu May 18 15:56:36 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 13:56:36 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <e000a2fa-7a14-6ddf-66ba-bb4979c1c3f0@jwsss.com>



On 5/18/2017 1:06 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> ________________________________________
> From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Ali via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 3:58 PM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: RE: BBS software for the PDP 11
>
>> As for power, if you  have a wife and/or kids, a PDP-11's power
>> consumption is not even above the noise floor in your electric bill.
>> (Unless your trying to do it with RA disks!!)
>>
>> bill
> Out of curiosity how much power do these wee beasties consume?
>
> ___________________________________
>
> The plate on the back of my 11/93 says 345 Watts.  That's about a fifth what your
> wifes hair dryer draws.  Or slightly more than 3 100 watt light bulbs (which your
> kids leave on all over the house all the time!!)
>
> bill
The light bulbs maybe, but you also run things much higher than 350 
watts from time to time.  The hair drier is meaningless.

Most of the lights I leave on now are LED pulling 10 or less watts. The 
entire population of light bulbs in my house left on now doesn't get to 
100w anymore.

I have 2 dell 2950's that pull a large power bill.  That is near your 
345 watts each, and I am plotting to take them out and their 
replacements are Intel NUC's @ 40w each, pretty much the same go power.

the 11/93 probably isn't running as much compute power as one core of 
the 2950.  Nor possibly a Raspberry Pi.    Whatever you want to do to 
convert $$ to radiant heat, I guess no one is stopping you. Running the 
old stuff for fun even for extended periods is one thing, but a BBS has 
possibly the mission to stay up.  Depending on what the OP has in mind.
thanks
Jim

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Thu May 18 15:58:29 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 13:58:29 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <377a0cda-1fb7-4abc-e028-1a1d30b73ae7@sydex.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044130.19434@deltasoft.com>
 <d457fccd-e908-5b20-b150-8d0adf1ed733@sydex.com>
 <f02ce24c-e151-04ca-2a30-49cbea849401@gmail.com>
 <377a0cda-1fb7-4abc-e028-1a1d30b73ae7@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <83de562b-17e4-e88a-6cb6-9a8f3aa0e318@jwsss.com>



On 5/18/2017 1:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Anyone remember Boardwatch magazine?
>
> --Chuck
I had a subscription to Rickard's rag pretty much for the duration till 
I got my first paid Shell account @ world.std.com and left dialup behind 
for continuous connectivity (initially on a 56K ppp connection).

Mentioned that already in a separate thread.  Someone answered that 
someone may have scanned them as well in reply.
thanks
Jim

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Thu May 18 17:22:03 2017
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 18:22:03 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
Message-ID: <4864e.1f7110c4.464f788a@aol.com>

we ran ours first on a hp-2000 then migrated to a hp-3000
 
final version had  100 boards on it  email  ,  multi  user  chat, poll and 
voting and much more.
yep it kicked ass!
 
The machines were  used also as  board test machines   etc  when needed
and   also some  were used as   sale   of  computer time to people tthat  
had  developed an application  and did not want to rewrite it  for a pc.
 
... and I found they were better to  just  run rather than turn  on and 
off..
but  they drew power!  and they generated heat.
 
... nothing like having a  10 platter 500 lb  drive as a leg  warmer next t
o your desk.
 
Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
In a message dated 5/18/2017 1:23:13 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

On Thu,  18 May 2017, allison via cctalk wrote:

> Never forget, BBS were  about storage and cheap which at that time were 
mostly
> opposed (disks  weren't cheap!).  The amount of Ram and CPU were less 
>  important
> considering what had to be done.  Often the modem and  hard disk were as 
> costly
> as the basic system and we didn't  exceed 2400 baud till '85or later.  
Most 
> anything
> could  keep up with IO at under 4800 baud.
>
Here's what amounts to a  canonnical(sp?) list of BBS programs for a number 
of different  platforms:

http://software.bbsdocumentary.com/

g.

--  
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of  its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go  Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect  hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A  Multi-Value database for the masses, not the  classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it  _today_!


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Thu May 18 17:42:23 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 22:42:23 +0000
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181310120.25621@deltasoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181310120.25621@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB1302DF4156890CA07687EF1CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of geneb via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 4:19 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: BBS software for the PDP 11

On Thu, 18 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

> As for power, if you have a wife and/or kids, a PDP-11's power
> consumption is not even above the noise floor in your electric bill.
> (Unless your trying to do it with RA disks!!)

I used to have an 8250 with four RA-81s and a TU-81+.  The power bills
were....impressive. :)

__________________________

8250 is a VAX, not a PDP-11.  I doubt it even ran off of 120v single phase.
Mine at the University certainly didn't.  I mentioned that RA's were tougher,
but I haven't used one (or owned one) for at least 10 years.  TU-81+?  I
don't remember them being real power hogs, but then I didn't power them
up unless I needed to use them.

bill

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Thu May 18 17:45:09 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 22:45:09 +0000
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181321530.25621@deltasoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044130.19434@deltasoft.com>
 <d457fccd-e908-5b20-b150-8d0adf1ed733@sydex.com>
 <f02ce24c-e151-04ca-2a30-49cbea849401@gmail.com>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181321530.25621@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB13020F77BD54C1A99F50F9B9EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of geneb via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 4:23 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11

On Thu, 18 May 2017, allison via cctalk wrote:

> Never forget, BBS were about storage and cheap which at that time were mostly
> opposed (disks weren't cheap!).  The amount of Ram and CPU were less
> important
> considering what had to be done.  Often the modem and hard disk were as
> costly
> as the basic system and we didn't exceed 2400 baud till '85or later.  Most
> anything
> could keep up with IO at under 4800 baud.
>
Here's what amounts to a canonnical(sp?) list of BBS programs for a number
of different platforms:

http://software.bbsdocumentary.com/

_____________________________________

UNAXCESS 

That's the one I ran on SYSTEM III based XENIX on a Tandy Model 16.

bill

From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu May 18 18:32:02 2017
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 17:32:02 -0600
Subject: AT&T Work Group System Voice Power voice processing boards for
 Unix PC 6300/7300 for sale
In-Reply-To: <BLUPR19MB042045A0BFF86604DE085C9CFFE40@BLUPR19MB0420.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAHJBWnRV7ZKuoo87KaiaiNmkMm_8G95x4WkLyF0vVW-XQLckNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHQ+QWCaq_trxrtZr2S2yVzhi91g9fMNMRgg6w4VaaS8Y+cFbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHQ+QWAHig86YjiUn-Mea2GRmz55ThAYngHX=r404yzzbYB+nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHJBWnTeNcse9Bxf8CfC2U_O03Hd2tSnw9i1OXManRLozLaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLUPR19MB042045A0BFF86604DE085C9CFFE40@BLUPR19MB0420.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTS8yT2WU8S-p4O0D26v473o5oOxZ_9zFrzkFbP=zk=1ag@mail.gmail.com>

Back when the Voice Power board for the 7300/3B1 UnixPC was of mainstream
interest, I spent some time trying to obtain specifications and programming
information regarding the Western Electric DSP20 chip it used. Unlike the
DSP16 and DSP32, WE (and AT&T Microelectronics) did not offer the chip for
sale, and the technical documentation was unobtanium.

From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com  Thu May 18 18:51:45 2017
From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 19:51:45 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB13020F77BD54C1A99F50F9B9EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044130.19434@deltasoft.com>
 <d457fccd-e908-5b20-b150-8d0adf1ed733@sydex.com>
 <f02ce24c-e151-04ca-2a30-49cbea849401@gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181321530.25621@deltasoft.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13020F77BD54C1A99F50F9B9EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <CAOpB=UPiZ9bw8092i45pe69g+RLgbeaRbc1w8DNyyo2XQq4tiA@mail.gmail.com>

I did not expect so much feedback, thanks to everyone who responded. I am
still reading over all the replies.

I am indeed looking to run the hardware for a extended duration or non stop
if I can manage to get a good bbs up and running.

Power consumption and heat output is not an issue. The machine is set up in
its own climate controlled area where it can be left to run for long
periods of time.

I am not much of a programmer. I thought about writing my own little dinky
bbs in assembly or something, but worried i would not understand how to get
information stored in a sane manner on the disks or backup to a common
format to tape. If i were to run something under 2.11bsd, i could just dump
something to tape with tar, which seems alot easier that writing everything
from scratch. It would be interesting to write it all from scratch, but i
lack the knowledge to do so at them moment.

I would like to be able to possible run other tasks on the machine while it
is running, i have a couple of terminals attached, so unix looks like it
may be the way for me to go. I have a heavy investment in RSX too though, i
have all the documentation for it here in large binders, it certainly would
be interesting to run it on an os ive not seen much of.


Still looking over my options, i will post back after i read over all the
replys better.

--Devin



On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> ________________________________________
> From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of geneb via
> cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 4:23 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11
>
> On Thu, 18 May 2017, allison via cctalk wrote:
>
> > Never forget, BBS were about storage and cheap which at that time were
> mostly
> > opposed (disks weren't cheap!).  The amount of Ram and CPU were less
> > important
> > considering what had to be done.  Often the modem and hard disk were as
> > costly
> > as the basic system and we didn't exceed 2400 baud till '85or later.
> Most
> > anything
> > could keep up with IO at under 4800 baud.
> >
> Here's what amounts to a canonnical(sp?) list of BBS programs for a number
> of different platforms:
>
> http://software.bbsdocumentary.com/
>
> _____________________________________
>
> UNAXCESS
>
> That's the one I ran on SYSTEM III based XENIX on a Tandy Model 16.
>
> bill
>

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Thu May 18 19:29:41 2017
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 19:29:41 -0500
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21fU3O4T9mrzUW_E6MW+5uXWdqrbQ5HB6oZqy0WY-c37g@mail.gmail.com>

Allot of then can be run on a single 15 amp circuit with a some.other stuff
on it as well

On May 18, 2017 2:58 PM, "Ali via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > As for power, if you  have a wife and/or kids, a PDP-11's power
> > consumption is not even above the noise floor in your electric bill.
> > (Unless your trying to do it with RA disks!!)
> >
> > bill
>
> Out of curiosity how much power do these wee beasties consume?
>
> -Ali
>
>

From rich.cini at verizon.net  Thu May 18 19:36:35 2017
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (rich.cini at verizon.net)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 20:36:35 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs21fU3O4T9mrzUW_E6MW+5uXWdqrbQ5HB6oZqy0WY-c37g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21fU3O4T9mrzUW_E6MW+5uXWdqrbQ5HB6oZqy0WY-c37g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15c1e227ab8-3411-2b06@webprd-m61.mail.aol.com>

When I had my 11/34 (11/34, expansion chassis, RX01 and two RK05 drives) think I ran a 30a, 240v circuit for the power distribution box in the rack but it used way less when running. Maybe 10a max. 

Rich

Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail

On Thursday, May 18, 2017, Adrian Stoness via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

Allot of then can be run on a single 15 amp circuit with a some.other stuff
on it as well

On May 18, 2017 2:58 PM, "Ali via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > As for power, if you have a wife and/or kids, a PDP-11's power
> > consumption is not even above the noise floor in your electric bill.
> > (Unless your trying to do it with RA disks!!)
> >
> > bill
>
> Out of curiosity how much power do these wee beasties consume?
>
> -Ali
>
>


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Thu May 18 20:50:44 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 21:50:44 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB13029734AB35FE1BD35C399CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181044520.19434@deltasoft.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13029734AB35FE1BD35C399CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <d2df202a-e0c5-ea77-946f-558ebafad9be@gmail.com>

On 05/18/2017 03:50 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> COSMAC Elf?  :-)
Why not, or a PdP-8.  It really is not a high load operation.  It was
more about storage.


Allison

> bill
> ________________________________________
> From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of geneb via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 1:45 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11
>
> On Thu, 18 May 2017, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
>
>> So a 11/03 aka a lsi11 would be to slow for such things? Such as those
>> Heathkit h11 lsi11 macheans? Witch was a hobyist pdp11 for those that are
>> unfamiliar with the hearhkits
> The machine is plenty fast.  There's been BBSes run on a VIC-20.  You
> can't get much slower than that. :)
>
> g.
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!


From kylevowen at gmail.com  Fri May 19 00:08:32 2017
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 00:08:32 -0500
Subject: Commercial AIM-65 Video Controller?
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUw-iLSbgc2DDYve+YCovZgM3jmsuJKMSCy+Y0WAK6uDOw@mail.gmail.com>

Any idea what this thing is?

https://imgur.com/a/aNFiK

Didn't come up with much of anything with Motion Control, Inc.

I did plug it in, and it seemed to come alive. I tempted fate again and
plugged a composite video source into the input, and a monitor into the
output. One pot on top adjusts the vertical sync, apparently; other than
making the colors slightly weird, the video came through more or less the
same. The other two (marked Y and Z cal) seemed to change nothing. The
switch mounted behind the pots caused the LED display to change (as seen in
the pictures), though the switch mounted closer to the right side of the
unit seemed to make no difference.

When I get done moving, I'll dump the EPROMs and get more pictures,
especially if there's sufficient interest.

Thanks,

Kyle

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Fri May 19 02:59:48 2017
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 09:59:48 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <20170518085139.055391fa@asrock.bcwi.net>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN3PR01MB1302119A65F48911358AAAEEEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <20170518091424.33a326ef967764f6059fe1bc@gmail.com>
 <20170518085139.055391fa@asrock.bcwi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1705190954080.26324@linuxserv.home>

On Thu, 18 May 2017, Lyle Bickley wrote:
> I run BSD 2.9 on my 11/34C (w/max. mem.) & DZ using (2) RL02s with up to
> three TTY sessions. It's a bit "sluggish" (by today's standards). TSX

I have a similar setup with our 11/34. 2.9BSD on one RL01 as root/swap, 
the rest (/usr etc.) on a RA80 (with the backported MSCP driver); also a 
couple of TTY lines. It's not the fastest system, and the kernel uses 
overlays like crazy ;-) But hey, it runs...
I still have to add the cache and FPP boards and see how that improves the 
performance.

Christian

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Fri May 19 05:13:45 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 03:13:45 -0700
Subject: bbs or crude facsimile of such
Message-ID: <e4d88281-6726-dc16-7ca8-0ed95079ebce@jwsss.com>

When I got my first system running, S100, I had an Imsai 8080 with a 
Hayes 103 modem.  I used it to log into multics and some BBS's at the 
time and record sessions and files and the like.  I only had the usual 
8" floppies, with eventually 1mb x 2 for storage.

However, reason for mentioning was that there was a simple program which 
would auto answer on the Hayes modem and allow you to run things.

One evening when my roommates and I had gone to dinner, a friend who was 
going to call at a certain time did so.  However we had forgotten he was 
to call, and I had left the system up and connected to the phone.

He called a couple of times and realized that we weren't around to pull 
the line, or call back, so he got his terminal up and running and left 
us a message on the screen for later.

I sort of count it as the first sort of BBS type I ran.  There was a 
program you could leave running which would challenge for a password, 
and then re-run when the modem lost signal, so you could have a low 
grade login that way.  (password only).

And one could take ones choice of files and xmodem them (which he did in 
future sessions).

I logged into many BBS systems which weren't much more than this or a 
restricted menu program after you logged in.  Some were nice with some 
presentation, and some were just (enter 1 to do ... 2 to do ... etc).

Not much else really required if you want to get to very basics.

With any BBS having more than just the floppies, login and messaging and 
more download options were the next level up.

And after that there were various BBS software packages that had 
networks of like users that one could obtain.

thanks
Jim


From lproven at gmail.com  Fri May 19 05:23:35 2017
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 12:23:35 +0200
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGeYJjMroVFAywasaVm-=V7FT1VkGSmkZwoiWWbebWUYA@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 May 2017 at 17:16, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> All a DOS BBS was  was a user interface that provided security by requiring
> user/password
> and limiting the commands usable.  The easy was to do that was a version of
> the CMD module
> rewritten to not have things like RMDIR and DEL.


I was never into the BBS scene, because outside North America, local
phone calls cost money. So you paid for every minute you were online
-- quite a lot.

I used (and still use) CIX (www.cix.co.uk) which was a sort of UK
version of BIX, and used offline readers -- you dial up, it sends your
comments, zips & grabs all your messages, and disconnects, as fast as
possible to keep the phone bill down.

But AIUI later-era DOS BBSes often used DESQview to allow multiple
multitasking user sessions, and the BBS sysops were often early
adopters of OS/2 2.

So DOS <> no multitasking...



-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri May 19 05:25:44 2017
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 12:25:44 +0200
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 May 2017 at 22:06, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> The plate on the back of my 11/93 says 345 Watts.  That's about a fifth what your
> wifes hair dryer draws.  Or slightly more than 3 100 watt light bulbs


Jesus wept.

Are you certain that this alleged "hair dryer" is not in fact a
hot-air paint stripper? And that the said "wife" is not in fact some
form of robot with a heatproof coating?

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri May 19 05:26:34 2017
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 12:26:34 +0200
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <4864e.1f7110c4.464f788a@aol.com>
References: <4864e.1f7110c4.464f788a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFefN3su-R4My0hs_PWz-ma6TYuqAoeph8qvWAdCZV0Wg@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 May 2017 at 00:22, Ed via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> we ran ours first on a hp-2000 then migrated to a hp-3000
>
> final version had  100 boards on it  email  ,  multi  user  chat, poll and
> voting and much more.
> yep it kicked ass!


You'd think if you'd been online that long, you'd have worked out how
to quote by now.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Fri May 19 05:45:23 2017
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 12:45:23 +0200
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170519104523.GA10405@mooli.org.uk>

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 12:25:44PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>> The plate on the back of my 11/93 says 345 Watts.  That's about a fifth what your
>> wifes hair dryer draws.  Or slightly more than 3 100 watt light bulbs
> Jesus wept.

> Are you certain that this alleged "hair dryer" is not in fact a hot-air paint
> stripper? And that the said "wife" is not in fact some form of robot with a
> heatproof coating?

I was more thinking of the several tens of kilolumens that you'd get from 345W
of modern high-efficiency LED lighting. It'd give you a decent tan, for a
start.


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri May 19 06:39:27 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 11:39:27 +0000
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <20170519104523.GA10405@mooli.org.uk>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20170519104523.GA10405@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB1302105D0EA45FBC58AC228AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Peter Corlett via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 6:45 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 12:25:44PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>> The plate on the back of my 11/93 says 345 Watts.  That's about a fifth what your
>> wifes hair dryer draws.  Or slightly more than 3 100 watt light bulbs
> Jesus wept.

> Are you certain that this alleged "hair dryer" is not in fact a hot-air paint
> stripper? And that the said "wife" is not in fact some form of robot with a
> heatproof coating?

I was more thinking of the several tens of kilolumens that you'd get from 345W
of modern high-efficiency LED lighting. It'd give you a decent tan, for a
start.

__________________________________

But, seriously, just how many households do you think have made the move
to LED lighting?  The amount of energy wasted in the average house, especially
those with wives and children (your wife never forget to turn off her curling iron?)
makes the power used by a QBUS PDP-11 pale in comparison.

bill

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri May 19 06:49:26 2017
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 13:49:26 +0200
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB13023FEBC7994DE541152A9AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023FEBC7994DE541152A9AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE2m--iLwdH7=PZgKHvvqMoEgbW5+kbrgwfsQugAKaOOw@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 May 2017 at 13:36, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Nope. Take a trip to Amazon and look at just how much power this stuff
> actually consumes.  And, if you go back to the days when we started
> running this stuff in our homes, compare the draw of a QBUS PDP-11 to
> a TV with a picture tube, standard incandescent lights, a refridgerator,
> window air conditioners, etc.  Our toys draw much less power than most
> people think.  Heck, I have seen modern PC's (you  know, the kind gamers
> use) that draw more power and are frequently run 24/7.

I wonder if this is one of those USA-vs-Rest-of-world differences.

I think I have seen a running PDP-11 twice in my life, and it was the
same one -- a machine I had to get exchanging files with Mac clients
acting as terminal emulators, in about 1989 in my first job. It was
already very old kit by then. I've no idea how much power they draw.

Window air conditioners are another thing I've never seen,
incandescent lights are now a rarity in Europe, hoarded by some
old-timers -- i.e. older than me, at a hair under 50. I've never
bought a new TV set with a CRT, either. In fact most of my CRT
monitors over my whole home computing time period -- nearly 40y --
were cast-offs, hand-me-downs, or bought 2nd hand.

I've bought a few 2nd hand LCD monitors now, because I like big ones.
(Oo er missus, etc.) I'm currently running a 23" + a 24" on a 2011 Mac
mini with a 1987 Apple Extended keyboard. All bought used. New kit is
for suckers.

So I don't look into power consumption -- used price is more important
to me, TBH. Probably bad of me, but wotthehell archie wotthehell.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Fri May 19 07:13:43 2017
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 14:13:43 +0200
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB1302105D0EA45FBC58AC228AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170519104523.GA10405@mooli.org.uk>
 <BN3PR01MB1302105D0EA45FBC58AC228AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <20170519121343.GA12558@mooli.org.uk>

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 11:39:27AM +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> But, seriously, just how many households do you think have made the move to
> LED lighting? The amount of energy wasted in the average house, especially
> those with wives and children (your wife never forget to turn off her curling
> iron?) makes the power used by a QBUS PDP-11 pale in comparison.

I have certainly noticed that those who contribute the least to the household
finances are also those who consume the most, yes. If anybody would like a
couple of workshy stoner flatmates, don't hesitate to come and collect them.
Please. I'd appreciate the 80% slump in electricity consumption. (800 watt base
load! What are they doing in there!?)

Anyway, for those of us in Amsterdam who can actually be bothered to find and
hold down a job, go out and do the shopping, etc, we're replacing blown
incandescents with LED bulbs because that's what they sell in the shops.
Incandescent bulbs are exotic specialist items.


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri May 19 07:58:19 2017
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 05:58:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB1302DF4156890CA07687EF1CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705181310120.25621@deltasoft.com>
 <BN3PR01MB1302DF4156890CA07687EF1CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705190549200.23952@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 18 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

>
> 8250 is a VAX, not a PDP-11.  I doubt it even ran off of 120v single phase.
>
Um, yeah.  It did.  I bought the machine for $500 from Mannesmann Tally in 
Kent, WA.  A friend and I removed the 8250 from their machine room and 
transported it to my home.  I had two 30A services installed in the 
upstairs of my house and that's where I set the machine up.

They'd wiped the drives before I got them, but they did give me the Ultrix 
install media.  I got it home on a Friday night and had it running Ultrix 
by Sunday afternoon.

Some months later I traded it to a friend that an 8350 in his garage.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri May 19 08:10:37 2017
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 06:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705190609490.23952@deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 19 May 2017, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:

> On 18 May 2017 at 22:06, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> The plate on the back of my 11/93 says 345 Watts.  That's about a fifth what your
>> wifes hair dryer draws.  Or slightly more than 3 100 watt light bulbs
>
>
> Jesus wept.
>
> Are you certain that this alleged "hair dryer" is not in fact a
> hot-air paint stripper? And that the said "wife" is not in fact some
> form of robot with a heatproof coating?
>
I just checked the one my wife uses and it's rated at 1875 watts. :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From johnl at johnlabovitz.com  Fri May 19 08:44:01 2017
From: johnl at johnlabovitz.com (John Labovitz)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 09:44:01 -0400
Subject: bbs or crude facsimile of such
In-Reply-To: <e4d88281-6726-dc16-7ca8-0ed95079ebce@jwsss.com>
References: <e4d88281-6726-dc16-7ca8-0ed95079ebce@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <33760C0E-9ED1-4AF7-B4D7-C386FC4382E0@johnlabovitz.com>

Another BBS obscurity ?

I ran a BBS in the early 80s called The Bethesda RCP/M. Those of us who couldn?t afford dedicated lines often used a method called ?ringback.? This was a clever way to share a regular home phone with a modem.

The idea was that if you wanted to dial up to the BBS, you?d call my number, but hang up after one ring, then call back. The software (BYE, as someone else here mentioned) would be monitoring the ring-detect line on the modem?s serial port, and watch for ring patterns. If it saw a second ring within ~4 seconds, it would ignore the call, assuming it was a voice call; otherwise, it would send the Hayes code to answer the line (ATA). It?s weird how I still remember all that logic, 35 years later...

I used ringback for my BBS for a few weeks until my parents got so annoyed at late-night telephone rings (with those loud clapper bells) that they paid up for a dedicated line.

?John


> On May 19, 2017, at 6:13 AM, jim stephens via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> When I got my first system running, S100, I had an Imsai 8080 with a Hayes 103 modem.  I used it to log into multics and some BBS's at the time and record sessions and files and the like.  I only had the usual 8" floppies, with eventually 1mb x 2 for storage.
> 
> However, reason for mentioning was that there was a simple program which would auto answer on the Hayes modem and allow you to run things.
> 
> One evening when my roommates and I had gone to dinner, a friend who was going to call at a certain time did so.  However we had forgotten he was to call, and I had left the system up and connected to the phone.
> 
> He called a couple of times and realized that we weren't around to pull the line, or call back, so he got his terminal up and running and left us a message on the screen for later.
> 
> I sort of count it as the first sort of BBS type I ran.  There was a program you could leave running which would challenge for a password, and then re-run when the modem lost signal, so you could have a low grade login that way.  (password only).
> 
> And one could take ones choice of files and xmodem them (which he did in future sessions).
> 
> I logged into many BBS systems which weren't much more than this or a restricted menu program after you logged in.  Some were nice with some presentation, and some were just (enter 1 to do ... 2 to do ... etc).
> 
> Not much else really required if you want to get to very basics.
> 
> With any BBS having more than just the floppies, login and messaging and more download options were the next level up.
> 
> And after that there were various BBS software packages that had networks of like users that one could obtain.
> 
> thanks
> Jim
> 


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri May 19 09:01:36 2017
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: bbs or crude facsimile of such
In-Reply-To: <33760C0E-9ED1-4AF7-B4D7-C386FC4382E0@johnlabovitz.com>
References: <e4d88281-6726-dc16-7ca8-0ed95079ebce@jwsss.com>
 <33760C0E-9ED1-4AF7-B4D7-C386FC4382E0@johnlabovitz.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705190653310.26036@deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 19 May 2017, John Labovitz via cctalk wrote:

> Another BBS obscurity ?
>
> I ran a BBS in the early 80s called The Bethesda RCP/M. Those of us who 
> couldn?t afford dedicated lines often used a method called ?ringback.? 
> This was a clever way to share a regular home phone with a modem.
>
> The idea was that if you wanted to dial up to the BBS, you?d call my 
> number, but hang up after one ring, then call back. The software (BYE, 
> as someone else here mentioned) would be monitoring the ring-detect line 
> on the modem?s serial port, and watch for ring patterns. If it saw a 
> second ring within ~4 seconds, it would ignore the call, assuming it was 
> a voice call; otherwise, it would send the Hayes code to answer the line 
> (ATA). It?s weird how I still remember all that logic, 35 years later...
>

I recall seeing the feature in BYE, but this is the first time I've heard 
of someone using it.  Neat! :)

For those that don't know what BYE is, it's basically a fancy I/O 
redirector for CP/M.  It would handle the serial comms and a few other 
things, and redirect I/O from the serial port, to the console.  This meant 
that you could run BBS software that didn't have any serial I/O.  The 
first versions of RBBS were like this - simply compiled BASIC with regular 
INPUT and PRINT statements.

BYE was written in 8080 assembly (I think MBYE was Z-80, but I'm not sure) 
and used an "insert" for the type of computer you were going to use it on. 
The insert contained code for all the machine-specific features that BYE 
needed (serial port control, 25th line support for status bar, etc.).

At some point a version of BYE was created for the IBM PC, but as far as I 
know, there was only a single release of it.

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri May 19 09:59:06 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 14:59:06 +0000
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <20170519121343.GA12558@mooli.org.uk>
References: <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170519104523.GA10405@mooli.org.uk>
 <BN3PR01MB1302105D0EA45FBC58AC228AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>,
 <20170519121343.GA12558@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB1302AD6428275508E2560336EDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Peter Corlett via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 8:13 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 11:39:27AM +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> But, seriously, just how many households do you think have made the move to
> LED lighting? The amount of energy wasted in the average house, especially
> those with wives and children (your wife never forget to turn off her curling
> iron?) makes the power used by a QBUS PDP-11 pale in comparison.

I have certainly noticed that those who contribute the least to the household
finances are also those who consume the most, yes. If anybody would like a
couple of workshy stoner flatmates, don't hesitate to come and collect them.
Please. I'd appreciate the 80% slump in electricity consumption. (800 watt base
load! What are they doing in there!?)

Anyway, for those of us in Amsterdam who can actually be bothered to find and
hold down a job, go out and do the shopping, etc, we're replacing blown
incandescents with LED bulbs because that's what they sell in the shops.
Incandescent bulbs are exotic specialist items.

_______________________________________

Incandescent are becoming rarer here, but we went thru a CDF phase
between them and LED's.  Now there was an environmental nightmare!!

bill

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri May 19 10:34:25 2017
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 11:34:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
Message-ID: <20170519153425.D567918C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Christian Corti

    > I have a similar setup with our 11/34. .. It's not the fastest system,
    > and the kernel uses overlays like crazy ;-) ... I still have to add the
    > cache and FPP boards and see how that improves the performance.

The cache should help some, but the FPP, probably not (unless you are running
some application which actually does a lot of floating point).

	Noel

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri May 19 13:01:39 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 14:01:39 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705190609490.23952@deltasoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705190609490.23952@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <72933077-72a1-7200-172c-87a61d821c4b@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-05-19 9:10 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote:
> On Fri, 19 May 2017, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
>
>> On 18 May 2017 at 22:06, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> The plate on the back of my 11/93 says 345 Watts.  That's about a
>>> fifth what your
>>> wifes hair dryer draws.  Or slightly more than 3 100 watt light bulbs
>>
>>
>> Jesus wept.
>>
>> Are you certain that this alleged "hair dryer" is not in fact a
>> hot-air paint stripper? And that the said "wife" is not in fact some
>> form of robot with a heatproof coating?
>>
> I just checked the one my wife uses and it's rated at 1875 watts. :)

Mine's is rated 2000W. And has its own circuit breaker on the plug.

--Toby

>
> g.
>


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri May 19 11:07:22 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 12:07:22 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCE2m--iLwdH7=PZgKHvvqMoEgbW5+kbrgwfsQugAKaOOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023FEBC7994DE541152A9AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCE2m--iLwdH7=PZgKHvvqMoEgbW5+kbrgwfsQugAKaOOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf87ab18-f3d5-d7c8-28de-35c09c8f3512@gmail.com>

On 05/19/2017 07:49 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> On 19 May 2017 at 13:36, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Nope. Take a trip to Amazon and look at just how much power this stuff
>> actually consumes.  And, if you go back to the days when we started
>> running this stuff in our homes, compare the draw of a QBUS PDP-11 to
>> a TV with a picture tube, standard incandescent lights, a refridgerator,
>> window air conditioners, etc.  Our toys draw much less power than most
>> people think.  Heck, I have seen modern PC's (you  know, the kind gamers
>> use) that draw more power and are frequently run 24/7.
Running a BBS I can think of several machines that re power frugal in the
DEC realm alone. 

Vt180 it a Vt100 power needs plus maybe 80W for the VT180 board and
four Floppies.   The total is under 120W based on an old measurement.

A PDP-11 Qbus machine with a 11/23 cpu and a RL02 or a RQDX/Hard disk 
was enough for running TSX and a few people timeshare in an office then
a BBS with one modem would be under utilized.  

A microVAX3100/20 with two 420MB disks would do that easy at under
150W.

Remember a BBS with 1 modem is runnnning at less (back then) than
1200 baud (120CPS!).  Name one CPU that can't grab one byte and
act on  it in 8.333mS?  The rest is enough storage to do a useful library
(download and upload programs, and some form of mail and forum/board).

> I wonder if this is one of those USA-vs-Rest-of-world differences.

Likely and also time frame.  PDP-11s had their peak life just like PDP-8s
and VAXen. 

>
> I think I have seen a running PDP-11 twice in my life, and it was the
> same one -- a machine I had to get exchanging files with Mac clients
> acting as terminal emulators, in about 1989 in my first job. It was
> already very old kit by then. I've no idea how much power they draw.
The power draw from from the micro level to the monster level.
For example a PDP11/150 was desktop and it plus the VT100 was maybe
150W, the 11/70 with a few RK07s and RM disks likely reuired a 230V 30A
line or more.

Most of the Qbus 11s (LSI-11 though 11/73) in single BA11 or BA23 box
were in the sub 300 W range as that was the limit of the power supply.
The disks for them could be PC class (early 80s) 5.25"  or RL02 and RX02.

My rack system with RX02, rl02, RD52x2 and 4mb ram and 11/73 cpu is
under 420W(460 with VT330) at 120V.    My former towerbox Xeon4/3ghz
with 4g of ram and a 160gb disk ran at 220W (24/7) the LCD added another
55W as a comparison.

I fired up the MicroPDP11 with a 11/23+ and 4mb ram, RD52 and floppy
and a VT320 and the KillaWatt was under 215W for the pair.

For comparison, my current desktop is a Mintbox and its maybe under
full load 12W (with usb keyboard and mouse).  The display dwarfs it.

> Window air conditioners are another thing I've never seen,
> incandescent lights are now a rarity in Europe, hoarded by some
> old-timers -- i.e. older than me, at a hair under 50. I've never
> bought a new TV set with a CRT, either. In fact most of my CRT
> monitors over my whole home computing time period -- nearly 40y --
> were cast-offs, hand-me-downs, or bought 2nd hand.
Led lights, an early adopter as I'm cheap(frugal) so between replacement
cost, heat load in the summer, and power consumption LEDs are cheap. 
I use incandescent for the times when color temperature is important
and LEDs can't cut it.

Then again I power my ham station off grid with 400W of solar and
150Ah of NiCd (industrial) battery.

CRT monitors I still have a few and one TV as its rarely used but
excellent quality.  I use terminals like Vt100, Vt180, Vt320 and even
VT1200 based on need or convenience.

By doing that I have the luxury of powering things like older computers
off of savings.

> I've bought a few 2nd hand LCD monitors now, because I like big ones.
> (Oo er missus, etc.) I'm currently running a 23" + a 24" on a 2011 Mac
> mini with a 1987 Apple Extended keyboard. All bought used. New kit is
> for suckers.
If you can buy it its obsolete, by used or cheap.  Also used is a good deal
by time one buys it the reliability of that model is known.

> So I don't look into power consumption -- used price is more important
> to me, TBH. Probably bad of me, but wotthehell archie wotthehell.
>


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Fri May 19 14:39:56 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 12:39:56 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGeYJjMroVFAywasaVm-=V7FT1VkGSmkZwoiWWbebWUYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGeYJjMroVFAywasaVm-=V7FT1VkGSmkZwoiWWbebWUYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <de10c918-b2a7-1144-ef5e-788a59c947fa@jwsss.com>



On 5/19/2017 3:23 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> On 18 May 2017 at 17:16, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> All a DOS BBS was  was a user interface that provided security by requiring
>> user/password
>> and limiting the commands usable.  The easy was to do that was a version of
>> the CMD module
>> rewritten to not have things like RMDIR and DEL.
>
> I was never into the BBS scene, because outside North America, local
> phone calls cost money. So you paid for every minute you were online
> -- quite a lot.
I have news for you. (maybe) From 1976 until it petered out, the phone 
time cost a lot too.  $200 or more a month at times.

Also a stupid charge for local calls where the PUC's didn't stand up to 
the Bell system or successors and call bullshit to the charges. Calling 
across a few blocks could cost a lot and you wouldn't know it unless you 
were a phone nut due to zone usage metering.

Only with competition in the mid 80s did US long distance start to fall, 
and now with the internet and voice over IP have the need to pay for 
most such long distance gone away for small users.

I put in a couple of T1 based systems for large offices though as 
recently as 7 years ago, and commercially the POTS or digital carrier 
phone numbers carry a huge toll.
thanks
Jim
> I used (and still use) CIX (www.cix.co.uk) which was a sort of UK
> version of BIX, and used offline readers -- you dial up, it sends your
> comments, zips & grabs all your messages, and disconnects, as fast as
> possible to keep the phone bill down.
>
> But AIUI later-era DOS BBSes often used DESQview to allow multiple
> multitasking user sessions, and the BBS sysops were often early
> adopters of OS/2 2.
>
> So DOS <> no multitasking...
>
>
>


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May 19 14:44:17 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 12:44:17 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <72933077-72a1-7200-172c-87a61d821c4b@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705190609490.23952@deltasoft.com>
 <72933077-72a1-7200-172c-87a61d821c4b@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4c64684e-0619-ddbe-bc45-8526fad1de48@sydex.com>

So, if it's authenticity you want, you'll have to incorporate some sort
of noise generator on the lines.   Telco quality is much better today
than 40 years ago (although you may not think so).  I recall that
calling Sunnyvale from Los Gatos (or vice-versa) was a real adventure in
connectivity.   Los Gatos was GTE; Sunnyvale was AT&T.  I think that
someone once told me that the network interconnect was acoustic (I don't
know if that was true).   But you might as well have been calling
Boston, for the line quality.

--Chuck


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Fri May 19 14:46:16 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 12:46:16 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <20170519121343.GA12558@mooli.org.uk>
References: <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170519104523.GA10405@mooli.org.uk>
 <BN3PR01MB1302105D0EA45FBC58AC228AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <20170519121343.GA12558@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <9613f719-5c66-f650-81eb-1aa2896437f1@jwsss.com>



On 5/19/2017 5:13 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote:
> Anyway, for those of us in Amsterdam who can actually be bothered to find and
> hold down a job, go out and do the shopping, etc, we're replacing blown
> incandescents with LED bulbs because that's what they sell in the shops.
> Incandescent bulbs are exotic specialist items.
The CFL lighting was subsidized by the local California Utilities, 
because the state has an incentive for Utilities to either build 
efficient plants and expand capacity, or incentivize people to reduce 
consumption by some amounts to offset that requirement.

They are doing  the same for some LED lighting now, though not as much 
as they did for CFL at this point.

At one point I could buy a flat of 60W CFL's for $2.00, which had maybe 
20 bulbs in it.  Still have it with bulbs.

I am however buying for every location I use lighting for any period  of 
time LED lighting.  I think most of my spots have 8 to 10w bulbs which 
are as bright as most the lighting which it replaced.

The main incandescent lighting I want to keep are lights which can be 
used in either traffic lights or have connections to work in home 
lighting.  They are specially made to have much extended lifetimes for 
such, and are handy where you do want to put in and leave an 
incandescent light rather than either CFL or LED.

thanks
Jim


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Fri May 19 15:14:46 2017
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 14:14:46 -0600
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <bf87ab18-f3d5-d7c8-28de-35c09c8f3512@gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023FEBC7994DE541152A9AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCE2m--iLwdH7=PZgKHvvqMoEgbW5+kbrgwfsQugAKaOOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <bf87ab18-f3d5-d7c8-28de-35c09c8f3512@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0df6944b-908d-d765-d3fc-9f1cf536d7bf@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/19/2017 10:07 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:

> Remember a BBS with 1 modem is runnnning at less (back then) than
> 1200 baud (120CPS!).  Name one CPU that can't grab one byte and
> act on  it in 8.333mS?  The rest is enough storage to do a useful library
> (download and upload programs, and some form of mail and forum/board).
>

Well I can think of one, but it can't be named on this list.
Ben.


From silent700 at gmail.com  Fri May 19 15:56:16 2017
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 15:56:16 -0500
Subject: Eunice BSD on TK50
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SER8=9APRZCWU+yRjGUENXEF8QxZn9r-rByZ+G2vJW76w@mail.gmail.com>

I have here a shipping box, a shrink-wrapped TK50 tape and various
docs for Wollongong Group's "EUNICE BSD," which I take to be a BSD
Unix-like environment for VMS.  I can't find a copy of either the docs
nor the bits online.

I will take care of scanning the docs.  I would like to send this tape
to someone - Al K getting first shot if he's interested - who can
image the TK50 cart and make it available to all.  I have a spotty
TKZ50 drive that I'd rather not risk this potentially valuable data
to.

The tape is marked:

"EUNICE BSD Binary Distribution Relase # E-11575-IP.  Users: UL"

Hooray, unlimited license!

Any takers?

-j

From silent700 at gmail.com  Fri May 19 15:58:13 2017
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 15:58:13 -0500
Subject: Eunice BSD on TK50
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SER8=9APRZCWU+yRjGUENXEF8QxZn9r-rByZ+G2vJW76w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SER8=9APRZCWU+yRjGUENXEF8QxZn9r-rByZ+G2vJW76w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SEE2cqnGfKs=_okYL9h93ihCySjB+NWCgidQCW6Uzfj1A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 3:56 PM, Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have here a shipping box, a shrink-wrapped TK50 tape and various
> docs for Wollongong Group's "EUNICE BSD," which I take to be a BSD

And for your entertainment, a very early Usenet post on the software:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/net.unix-wizards/069-KS5M7Js

From cctalk at ibm51xx.net  Fri May 19 17:13:50 2017
From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 15:13:50 -0700
Subject: bbs or crude facsimile of such
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705190653310.26036@deltasoft.com>
References: <e4d88281-6726-dc16-7ca8-0ed95079ebce@jwsss.com>
 <33760C0E-9ED1-4AF7-B4D7-C386FC4382E0@johnlabovitz.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705190653310.26036@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <00de01d2d0ed$334b11b0$99e13510$@net>

> At some point a version of BYE was created for the IBM PC, but as far
> as I know, there was only a single release of it.
> 

Any idea if the IBM version is available in an archive somewhere online?

-Ali


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri May 19 21:01:12 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 02:01:12 +0000
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <9613f719-5c66-f650-81eb-1aa2896437f1@jwsss.com>
References: <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170519104523.GA10405@mooli.org.uk>
 <BN3PR01MB1302105D0EA45FBC58AC228AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <20170519121343.GA12558@mooli.org.uk>,
 <9613f719-5c66-f650-81eb-1aa2896437f1@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB13023F204F1CDAEF1986C06AEDFA0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>


________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of jim stephens via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 3:46 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11

On 5/19/2017 5:13 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote:
> Anyway, for those of us in Amsterdam who can actually be bothered to find and
> hold down a job, go out and do the shopping, etc, we're replacing blown
> incandescents with LED bulbs because that's what they sell in the shops.
> Incandescent bulbs are exotic specialist items.
The CFL lighting was subsidized by the local California Utilities,
because the state has an incentive for Utilities to either build
efficient plants and expand capacity, or incentivize people to reduce
consumption by some amounts to offset that requirement.

They are doing  the same for some LED lighting now, though not as much
as they did for CFL at this point.

At one point I could buy a flat of 60W CFL's for $2.00, which had maybe
20 bulbs in it.  Still have it with bulbs.

__________________________________________

And if you break one you  have to call HAZMAT.  You did realize that,
didn't you?  They contain mercury and any breakage requires professional
remediation by law!!

bill


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Fri May 19 21:21:40 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 19:21:40 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB13023F204F1CDAEF1986C06AEDFA0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170519104523.GA10405@mooli.org.uk>
 <BN3PR01MB1302105D0EA45FBC58AC228AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <20170519121343.GA12558@mooli.org.uk>
 <9613f719-5c66-f650-81eb-1aa2896437f1@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023F204F1CDAEF1986C06AEDFA0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <a0764845-0a86-cd40-1dd5-fe3990556bf5@jwsss.com>



On 5/19/2017 7:01 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> And if you break one you  have to call HAZMAT.  You did realize that,
> didn't you?  They contain mercury and any breakage requires professional
> remediation by law!!
I bag and take to the disposal all fluorescent discard, including CFL.

https://www.epa.gov/cfl/what-are-connections-between-mercury-and-cfls


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Fri May 19 23:46:05 2017
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 23:46:05 -0500
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <de10c918-b2a7-1144-ef5e-788a59c947fa@jwsss.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGeYJjMroVFAywasaVm-=V7FT1VkGSmkZwoiWWbebWUYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <de10c918-b2a7-1144-ef5e-788a59c947fa@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs22NrdsoP_SqBuUXAASrr=b=nYW0ask_g4zONhtMiEwUaQ@mail.gmail.com>

My dad had some bills of 5 grand he told me but he was dialing out from a
remote location in northern Manitoba that had only microwave said made huge
difference when he went from 500 baud to 5000

On May 19, 2017 2:40 PM, "jim stephens via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>
>
> On 5/19/2017 3:23 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
>
>> On 18 May 2017 at 17:16, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> All a DOS BBS was  was a user interface that provided security by
>>> requiring
>>> user/password
>>> and limiting the commands usable.  The easy was to do that was a version
>>> of
>>> the CMD module
>>> rewritten to not have things like RMDIR and DEL.
>>>
>>
>> I was never into the BBS scene, because outside North America, local
>> phone calls cost money. So you paid for every minute you were online
>> -- quite a lot.
>>
> I have news for you. (maybe) From 1976 until it petered out, the phone
> time cost a lot too.  $200 or more a month at times.
>
> Also a stupid charge for local calls where the PUC's didn't stand up to
> the Bell system or successors and call bullshit to the charges. Calling
> across a few blocks could cost a lot and you wouldn't know it unless you
> were a phone nut due to zone usage metering.
>
> Only with competition in the mid 80s did US long distance start to fall,
> and now with the internet and voice over IP have the need to pay for most
> such long distance gone away for small users.
>
> I put in a couple of T1 based systems for large offices though as recently
> as 7 years ago, and commercially the POTS or digital carrier phone numbers
> carry a huge toll.
> thanks
> Jim
>
>> I used (and still use) CIX (www.cix.co.uk) which was a sort of UK
>> version of BIX, and used offline readers -- you dial up, it sends your
>> comments, zips & grabs all your messages, and disconnects, as fast as
>> possible to keep the phone bill down.
>>
>> But AIUI later-era DOS BBSes often used DESQview to allow multiple
>> multitasking user sessions, and the BBS sysops were often early
>> adopters of OS/2 2.
>>
>> So DOS <> no multitasking...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Fri May 19 23:46:33 2017
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 04:46:33 +0000
Subject: Commercial AIM-65 Video Controller?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUw-iLSbgc2DDYve+YCovZgM3jmsuJKMSCy+Y0WAK6uDOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUw-iLSbgc2DDYve+YCovZgM3jmsuJKMSCy+Y0WAK6uDOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN6PR14MB1585EBA34985506FA21B3459A3FA0@BN6PR14MB1585.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

I don't believe the AIM-65 normally does color??

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Kyle Owen via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 10:08:32 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Commercial AIM-65 Video Controller?

Any idea what this thing is?

https://imgur.com/a/aNFiK

Didn't come up with much of anything with Motion Control, Inc.

I did plug it in, and it seemed to come alive. I tempted fate again and
plugged a composite video source into the input, and a monitor into the
output. One pot on top adjusts the vertical sync, apparently; other than
making the colors slightly weird, the video came through more or less the
same. The other two (marked Y and Z cal) seemed to change nothing. The
switch mounted behind the pots caused the LED display to change (as seen in
the pictures), though the switch mounted closer to the right side of the
unit seemed to make no difference.

When I get done moving, I'll dump the EPROMs and get more pictures,
especially if there's sufficient interest.

Thanks,

Kyle

From mark at matlockfamily.com  Fri May 19 17:44:46 2017
From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 17:44:46 -0500
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
Message-ID: <E4222694-F6CE-4AA4-892B-FA4BD85AFE41@MatlockFamily.com>

As for power, if you  have a wife and/or kids, a PDP-11's power
> consumption is not even above the noise floor in your electric bill.
> (Unless your trying to do it with RA disks!!)
> 
> bill

Out of curiosity how much power do these wee beasties consume?
___________________________________
The plate on the back of my 11/93 says 345 Watts.  That's about a fifth what your
wifes hair dryer draws.  Or slightly more than 3 100 watt light bulbs (which your
kids leave on all over the house all the time!!)
bill

I run a similar PDP-11/83 system 24/7 on a BA23 in a Pedestal stand. It has two 2MB memory boards, an Emulex UC07 connected to two SCSI2SD Cards emulating two RD54s and two RA92s, and a DELQA-T running RSX11M+, DECnet and Johnny Billquist;s TCP/IP and it draws 100-105 watts on my UPS. 

I also run a Simh PDP-11 on a Raspberry Pi 3 as an adjacent node and it is much faster, much quieter, but not quite as much fun.

Mark Matlock




From cctalk at ibm51xx.net  Fri May 19 18:18:51 2017
From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 16:18:51 -0700
Subject: PDP Power Usage WAS: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <E4222694-F6CE-4AA4-892B-FA4BD85AFE41@MatlockFamily.com>
References: <E4222694-F6CE-4AA4-892B-FA4BD85AFE41@MatlockFamily.com>
Message-ID: <00f401d2d0f6$47bf0940$d73d1bc0$@net>

> ___________________________________
> The plate on the back of my 11/93 says 345 Watts.  That's about a fifth
> what your wifes hair dryer draws.  Or slightly more than 3 100 watt
> light bulbs (which your kids leave on all over the house all the
> time!!) bill
> 
> I run a similar PDP-11/83 system 24/7 on a BA23 in a Pedestal stand. It
> has two 2MB memory boards, an Emulex UC07 connected to two SCSI2SD
> Cards emulating two RD54s and two RA92s, and a DELQA-T running RSX11M+,
> DECnet and Johnny Billquist;s TCP/IP and it draws 100-105 watts on my
> UPS.

Doesn't seem that bad, I am sure some of my vintage servers w/ the 10-12 FH
SCSI drives, "tons of RAM, and four PPro chips are pulling somewhere along
those numbers. I may have to invest in a Kill-a-Watt type device to see for
sure though.

-Ali


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Sat May 20 03:59:15 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 01:59:15 -0700
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
Message-ID: <f329a45c-2c27-be40-56df-d3733b363bae@jwsss.com>

I just ran across a sale on epay by a guy who thought you could pull the 
processor chip off the board and sell each in separate auctions.

I couldn't find the processor from the huge number of gold scrap chip 
auctions he had, but he said it (or the other) chip(s) for the board 
were listed.

I think giving him the benefit of the doubt, he thought that the two 
were separable like motherboards and processors are now day.  Worst case 
he was just an unfortunate idiot that destroyed the board.

I sent him an email telling him the value I place on it (tested) and 
suggested that he think of older boards as the full components to be 
kept together unless he wants to destroy the board, or knows what he is 
doing breaking them up.  Of course on old Qbus and the like boards, one 
does have some components that are more valuable if you break up the 
board, and pull "unobtainium" chips.  But pulling out the KDF processor 
isn't one of them in general.

I just bought a KDJ Jaws chip for a "round 2it" project to try to get it 
running, as I archived a PDP11 "Hack" page indicating how to get one 
running on a proto board with minimal hardware.

I don't know if you could do that with the KDF, but that isn't what this 
guy is doing.

thanks
Jim


From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Sat May 20 06:05:57 2017
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 13:05:57 +0200
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB13023F204F1CDAEF1986C06AEDFA0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170519104523.GA10405@mooli.org.uk>
 <BN3PR01MB1302105D0EA45FBC58AC228AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <20170519121343.GA12558@mooli.org.uk>
 <9613f719-5c66-f650-81eb-1aa2896437f1@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023F204F1CDAEF1986C06AEDFA0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <20170520110556.GA5526@mooli.org.uk>

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 02:01:12AM +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> And if you break one you have to call HAZMAT. You did realize that, didn't
> you? They contain mercury and any breakage requires professional remediation
> by law!!

That's an "alternative fact". The EPA gives some clean-up guidelines for CFLs:

https://www.epa.gov/cfl/cleaning-broken-cfl

The TL;DR is that you allow the (trivial amount of) mercury vapour to escape to
the atmosphere, clean up the broken glass, and recycle the electronics as
necessary. So just the same as any other domestic breakage, then.

It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic that the USA worries about less than
5mg of mercury in a CFL bulb, yet burns vast quantities of mercury-laced coal
to power them.

Also, none of this applies to LED lighting, which doesn't contain glass and can
be dropped into the e-waste stream as-is when it fails.


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat May 20 08:12:15 2017
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 09:12:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
Message-ID: <20170520131215.1886718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jim Stephens

    > I just ran across a sale on epay by a guy who thought you could pull
    > the processor chip off the board and sell each in separate auctions.

There are a lot of idiotz out there.

I ran into one who'd removed a group of boards from (probably) an -11/40, and
then scrapped away the rest of the machine (including an RK11-D backplane).

I took _great_ pleasure in informing him that the stuff he'd scrapped had
been worth several times what the boards he had 'saved' had been worth.

	Noel

From lproven at gmail.com  Sat May 20 08:42:09 2017
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 15:42:09 +0200
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <de10c918-b2a7-1144-ef5e-788a59c947fa@jwsss.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGeYJjMroVFAywasaVm-=V7FT1VkGSmkZwoiWWbebWUYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <de10c918-b2a7-1144-ef5e-788a59c947fa@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCG3LsCsBxV++C9ZWGq9OvG8xrb_EmXFfWKamKxAkmxC3g@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 May 2017 at 21:39, jim stephens via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> I have news for you. (maybe) From 1976 until it petered out, the phone time
> cost a lot too.  $200 or more a month at times.

What does "phone time" mean in this context?

I mean, POTS billing, for me, was always time-based, but the amount
billed per unit time varied according to distance.

AIUI, the UK system -- local calls cheapish, long-distance calls
within the country more but not vast, international calls VERY
expensive -- contrasted with the US system: local calls free,
unlimited time, but long-distance calls within the country very
expensive. Thus the development of various early
telephony-over-the-Internet systems. I never used these at all until I
had an international long-distance relationship. No real point inside
the British Isles.

> Also a stupid charge for local calls where the PUC's didn't stand up to the

"PUC"?

> Bell system or successors and call bullshit to the charges. Calling across a
> few blocks could cost a lot and you wouldn't know it unless you were a phone
> nut due to zone usage metering.

I don't know what "zone usage metering" is either.

> Only with competition in the mid 80s did US long distance start to fall, and
> now with the internet and voice over IP have the need to pay for most such
> long distance gone away for small users.

Well, yes, for everyone.

Now, in Europe, the problem is international mobile phone roaming. The
EU is slowly forcing this out, but in return, now, the cost of
roaming to non-EU countries is extortionate.

> I put in a couple of T1 based systems for large offices though as recently
> as 7 years ago, and commercially the POTS or digital carrier phone numbers
> carry a huge toll.

Wow...

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Sat May 20 09:49:13 2017
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 10:49:13 -0400
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
References: <20170520131215.1886718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <AAC0932F57134F46B2627AAFDD42AE79@310e2>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Noel Chiappa via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Cc: <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2017 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)


>    > From: Jim Stephens
> 
>    > I just ran across a sale on epay by a guy who thought you could pull
>    > the processor chip off the board and sell each in separate auctions.
> 
> There are a lot of idiotz out there.
> 
> I ran into one who'd removed a group of boards from (probably) an -11/40, and
> then scrapped away the rest of the machine (including an RK11-D backplane).
> 
> I took _great_ pleasure in informing him that the stuff he'd scrapped had
> been worth several times what the boards he had 'saved' had been worth.
> 
> Noel
-----

Be kind!

Many years ago, before I discovered that people actually valued and collected this useless junk I bought a Northstar-in-a-desk at auction, threw the innards in the trash and kept the desk (now holding a stack of Cromemcos ;-).

m

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sat May 20 09:01:38 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 10:01:38 -0400
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <f329a45c-2c27-be40-56df-d3733b363bae@jwsss.com>
References: <f329a45c-2c27-be40-56df-d3733b363bae@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <56cc85bb-af18-b10b-bf36-819afccab353@gmail.com>

On 05/20/2017 04:59 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
> I just ran across a sale on epay by a guy who thought you could pull
> the processor chip off the board and sell each in separate auctions.
>
> I couldn't find the processor from the huge number of gold scrap chip
> auctions he had, but he said it (or the other) chip(s) for the board
> were listed.
>
> I think giving him the benefit of the doubt, he thought that the two
> were separable like motherboards and processors are now day.  Worst
> case he was just an unfortunate idiot that destroyed the board.
>
> I sent him an email telling him the value I place on it (tested) and
> suggested that he think of older boards as the full components to be
> kept together unless he wants to destroy the board, or knows what he
> is doing breaking them up.  Of course on old Qbus and the like boards,
> one does have some components that are more valuable if you break up
> the board, and pull "unobtainium" chips.  But pulling out the KDF
> processor isn't one of them in general.
>
> I just bought a KDJ Jaws chip for a "round 2it" project to try to get
> it running, as I archived a PDP11 "Hack" page indicating how to get
> one running on a proto board with minimal hardware.
>
> I don't know if you could do that with the KDF, but that isn't what
> this guy is doing.
>
Argh,  CPU chips used on dec board loose value as the complete board
carries the value.

KDF with the second chip is useful but the logic needed to may a "CPU"
of the raw chips is
not trivial.

Best chip for hacking and useful off a board (Falcon, KXT11, RQDX,
others) is the T11.  Its easily
useful like a 8085 or Z80.
 
Allison

> thanks
> Jim
>


From mark.kahrs at gmail.com  Sat May 20 10:49:41 2017
From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 11:49:41 -0400
Subject: Ethernet 1973/1974
Message-ID: <CAEokdfc39iqqinz6No6o0LN8_fezVUa3GxTtw0soh-vWoRM3GQ@mail.gmail.com>

The early ethernet schematics are best read with the a copy of  the
original patent (US 4,073,220) in hand.  In particular, you can match up
figure 5 and the explanation in the text with the schematic from Xerox.  I
wrote such a document decades ago but it has vanished along with many other
bits.

Has anyone interviewed Tat Lam about the transceiver?

From imp at bsdimp.com  Sat May 20 13:12:03 2017
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 12:12:03 -0600
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCG3LsCsBxV++C9ZWGq9OvG8xrb_EmXFfWKamKxAkmxC3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGeYJjMroVFAywasaVm-=V7FT1VkGSmkZwoiWWbebWUYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <de10c918-b2a7-1144-ef5e-788a59c947fa@jwsss.com>
 <CAMTenCG3LsCsBxV++C9ZWGq9OvG8xrb_EmXFfWKamKxAkmxC3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfpMxXbgF8DUoUhPSNGKf82D4SesMR9Zmtv9QmHtXE3DLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:42 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 19 May 2017 at 21:39, jim stephens via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
> > I have news for you. (maybe) From 1976 until it petered out, the phone
> time
> > cost a lot too.  $200 or more a month at times.
>
> What does "phone time" mean in this context?
>
> I mean, POTS billing, for me, was always time-based, but the amount
> billed per unit time varied according to distance.
>
> AIUI, the UK system -- local calls cheapish, long-distance calls
> within the country more but not vast, international calls VERY
> expensive -- contrasted with the US system: local calls free,
> unlimited time, but long-distance calls within the country very
> expensive. Thus the development of various early
> telephony-over-the-Internet systems. I never used these at all until I
> had an international long-distance relationship. No real point inside
> the British Isles.


Until the late 1990's or early 2000's, you paid per minute on long
distance, but typically not for local calls. Now it's all flat rate, or
almost flat rate no matter how much you use.

> Also a stupid charge for local calls where the PUC's didn't stand up to
> the
>
> "PUC"?


Public Utilities Commission. That's the folks that in most states set the
tariffs under which phone companies operated. The tariffs set the rates for
long distance, what constitutes long distance, etc.


>
> > Bell system or successors and call bullshit to the charges. Calling
> across a
> > few blocks could cost a lot and you wouldn't know it unless you were a
> phone
> > nut due to zone usage metering.
>
> I don't know what "zone usage metering" is either.


In the bay area in california, and likely elsewhere too, there was a local
calling zone that was set based on the population patterns of the 1950's
and 1960's. This meant that calls to some numbers were free, while others
had a toll associated with them. There were zones around the central zone.
So it would cost money to call out of your zone, even if things were only a
few miles away. It was a total crock, but something that the PUCs allowed
because it has always been allowed before the suburbs grew up into one
contiguous population area. So fast forward to the 1980's or 1990's and you
found it impossible to know how much a call would cost. In Colorado, I
lived in an area just outside the metro calling area. I could call 20 miles
away to the far side of Longmont for free. But calling 2 miles to the pizza
joint was a long distance call because it was over the line in gunbarrel
which was in the metro calling area. Totally insane and bat **** crazy.


>
> > Only with competition in the mid 80s did US long distance start to fall,
> and
> > now with the internet and voice over IP have the need to pay for most
> such
> > long distance gone away for small users.
>
> Well, yes, for everyone.
>

For everyone in major cities where there's competition. The picture is
still F'd up in rural areas where there's only one phone company.


> Now, in Europe, the problem is international mobile phone roaming. The
> EU is slowly forcing this out, but in return, now, the cost of
> roaming to non-EU countries is extortionate.
>
> > I put in a couple of T1 based systems for large offices though as
> recently
> > as 7 years ago, and commercially the POTS or digital carrier phone
> numbers
> > carry a huge toll.
>
> Wow....


Yea. It was a regulated monopoly here, and all kinds of crazy pricing
things were in play to prop up a failing business model unable to compete
with new technology.... Of course, there's still forces here in the US that
are trying to leverage their failing telco business into a toll-gate on the
internet, so time will tell...

Warner

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sat May 20 15:28:34 2017
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 14:28:34 -0600
Subject: Commercial AIM-65 Video Controller?
In-Reply-To: <BN6PR14MB1585EBA34985506FA21B3459A3FA0@BN6PR14MB1585.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAKtEYUw-iLSbgc2DDYve+YCovZgM3jmsuJKMSCy+Y0WAK6uDOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN6PR14MB1585EBA34985506FA21B3459A3FA0@BN6PR14MB1585.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSj9+3SFjunSVDsR1q+rQzLwKuUf1BjGJvO36nzitsC6A@mail.gmail.com>

On May 19, 2017 10:46 PM, "dwight via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

I don't believe the AIM-65 normally does color??


The AIM-65 normally does one color, which is red, on its alphanumeric LED
displays.

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 20 16:05:46 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 14:05:46 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfpMxXbgF8DUoUhPSNGKf82D4SesMR9Zmtv9QmHtXE3DLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGeYJjMroVFAywasaVm-=V7FT1VkGSmkZwoiWWbebWUYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <de10c918-b2a7-1144-ef5e-788a59c947fa@jwsss.com>
 <CAMTenCG3LsCsBxV++C9ZWGq9OvG8xrb_EmXFfWKamKxAkmxC3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfpMxXbgF8DUoUhPSNGKf82D4SesMR9Zmtv9QmHtXE3DLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ec437812-baf8-3008-69d4-c8bec4fbe535@sydex.com>

On 05/20/2017 11:12 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:

> In the bay area in california, and likely elsewhere too, there was a local
> calling zone that was set based on the population patterns of the 1950's
> and 1960's. This meant that calls to some numbers were free, while others
> had a toll associated with them. There were zones around the central zone.
> So it would cost money to call out of your zone, even if things were only a
> few miles away. It was a total crock, but something that the PUCs allowed
> because it has always been allowed before the suburbs grew up into one
> contiguous population area. So fast forward to the 1980's or 1990's and you
> found it impossible to know how much a call would cost. In Colorado, I
> lived in an area just outside the metro calling area. I could call 20 miles
> away to the far side of Longmont for free. But calling 2 miles to the pizza
> joint was a long distance call because it was over the line in gunbarrel
> which was in the metro calling area. Totally insane and bat **** crazy.

Yes--and in addition, if you were willing to pay a monthly subscription
fee, you could add a city in the calling area that exempted you from
metered service for that city.  I remember doing this for Menlo Park.

Not only that, but sometimes the tariffs were set up such that A's calls
to B were free, but B's calls to A were toll.  And things were even
weirder when the destination was a non-AT&T carrier.  GTE, for example,
serviced Boulder Creek and Los Gatos.

In the early days of BBS, one of the ways for a sysop to save money was
to specify that a line was "answer only"--you couldn't dial out from it.
 I know of at least one case where Pacific Bell insisted that a modem on
such a line constituted a "data line", for which there was a much higher
charge.   It was a wacky world.

Even by 1990s, a lot of the RBOCs hadn't completely shed their habits.
I learned from an installer that a service call to "check the line" was
free, but one to "check equalization" was a substantial charge, even
though the former usually included the latter.

--Chuck




--Chuck


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Sat May 20 16:16:08 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 14:16:08 -0700
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCG3LsCsBxV++C9ZWGq9OvG8xrb_EmXFfWKamKxAkmxC3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNSz58C0+LT1HgRNNLiEta4u4xM8FO9tQN4aq7AxN+9CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudobJzZQXTxyBkrrsEs09CqaQq8QEPCOd4DcnX6W3xPtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705180607580.11566@deltasoft.com>
 <CABGJBuefnSD8heNuWhfmVn67Tay+tfEqbSgTGc+M9j-vv1QkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGeYJjMroVFAywasaVm-=V7FT1VkGSmkZwoiWWbebWUYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <de10c918-b2a7-1144-ef5e-788a59c947fa@jwsss.com>
 <CAMTenCG3LsCsBxV++C9ZWGq9OvG8xrb_EmXFfWKamKxAkmxC3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dd8025df-ede2-e1e5-ddbf-119d8530f587@jwsss.com>



On 5/20/2017 6:42 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> On 19 May 2017 at 21:39, jim stephens via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> I have news for you. (maybe) From 1976 until it petered out, the phone time
>> cost a lot too.  $200 or more a month at times.
> What does "phone time" mean in this context?
Long distance tolls vs. the zone usage mentioned below.  Not a lot of 
variable vs. distance here, pretty much was so many cents / min.
> I mean, POTS billing, for me, was always time-based, but the amount
> billed per unit time varied according to distance.
>
> AIUI, the UK system -- local calls cheapish, long-distance calls
> within the country more but not vast, international calls VERY
> expensive -- contrasted with the US system: local calls free,
> unlimited time, but long-distance calls within the country very
> expensive. Thus the development of various early
> telephony-over-the-Internet systems. I never used these at all until I
> had an international long-distance relationship. No real point inside
> the British Isles.
local calls were flat rate within zones from when i was born in the 
60's.  I do know you used to be able to pay per call, but I am not aware 
of anyone that had that measured billing in my family or associates.  
Just one relative who even had one of the old crank phones, but they 
could just take the mic off hook, and crank and have a call placed.
>> Also a stupid charge for local calls where the PUC's didn't stand up to the
> "PUC"?
Public Utility Commissions in every state control the billing 
structures.  In some states, sanity wins over the utilities, but usually 
utilities bribe and engage in any tactic they can to pack them with 
sympathetic folks who allow them to charge all the can, and be totally 
unresponsive to any need to deliver product.

Subject for a huge posting on an entirely different list.
>> Bell system or successors and call bullshit to the charges. Calling across a
>> few blocks could cost a lot and you wouldn't know it unless you were a phone
>> nut due to zone usage metering.
> I don't know what "zone usage metering" is either.
In local metropolitan areas, the phone companies will make up a grid of 
zones.  They set a matrix of tolls between each.  Calls are way over 
priced, and calling across some zones could cause 500' calls to cost as 
much as long distance calls.

Where I grew up in the Kansas City, Mo area, the PUC (see above) in both 
Ks and Mo had gotten together to force the Bell system to create a 
single "free" zone across the entire 30 mile dia area with no zone 
charges in the early 60's.  The tradeoff was they were given free reign 
in other nonsense in the states.

But many areas had or still have this if you don't have a flat rate plan 
of some sort.
>> Only with competition in the mid 80s did US long distance start to fall, and
>> now with the internet and voice over IP have the need to pay for most such
>> long distance gone away for small users.
> Well, yes, for everyone.
>
> Now, in Europe, the problem is international mobile phone roaming. The
> EU is slowly forcing this out, but in return, now, the cost of
> roaming to non-EU countries is extortionate.
I have not made calls on any cell there, the few times I have traveled 
recently, but am aware.  The place I see it is with my worldwide Vonage 
plan, with some coverage in some countries of all phones, and in some no 
cell, others no POTS.  But for the same rate as I used to pay for US / 
Canada / Mexico, I now get global coverage with same cost / month, $27 
or so.  Send your Phone# I can call.
>> I put in a couple of T1 based systems for large offices though as recently
>> as 7 years ago, and commercially the POTS or digital carrier phone numbers
>> carry a huge toll.
> Wow...
Businesses still look like the bad old days for tolls.

Also had several fights with the "hamsters" who would tack on "fees' for 
such as WWW advertising.  The phone companies claim that you can sign up 
as a vendor and send arbitrary charges to be added to phone bills and it 
isn't their responsibility.

Frontier, a carrier here as well as one of the third party service 
parasites here are total aholes about it.

I had to file a complaint with the PUC here several times to force Pac 
Bell to take off charges to the company I'm referring to.  Prior to me 
getting the billing to manage, they were paying about 800 / month for 
service.  After revision, i got it cut in half by dumping crap like the 
above and other services that were useless.

Companies who send their bills to accounting departments usually get 
screwed over badly because they don't know how or what to question.

But on individual bills one usually notices crap so the third party 
folks have largely quit annoying them.

BTW, the long distance here isn't "free" it is just flat rate for 
individuals.  Most carriers have flat rate plans for businesses, but are 
quite a bit higher than for individuals.

thanks
jim

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Sat May 20 16:19:48 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 14:19:48 -0700
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <AAC0932F57134F46B2627AAFDD42AE79@310e2>
References: <20170520131215.1886718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <AAC0932F57134F46B2627AAFDD42AE79@310e2>
Message-ID: <4ec56c50-a9a6-0110-bdd7-6b21554ed621@jwsss.com>



On 5/20/2017 7:49 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Noel Chiappa via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Cc: <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2017 9:12 AM
> Subject: Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
>
>
>>     > From: Jim Stephens
>>
>>     > I just ran across a sale on epay by a guy who thought you could pull
>>     > the processor chip off the board and sell each in separate auctions.
>>
>> There are a lot of idiotz out there.
>>
>> I ran into one who'd removed a group of boards from (probably) an -11/40, and
>> then scrapped away the rest of the machine (including an RK11-D backplane).
>>
>> I took _great_ pleasure in informing him that the stuff he'd scrapped had
>> been worth several times what the boards he had 'saved' had been worth.
>>
>> Noel
> -----
>
> Be kind!
>
> Many years ago, before I discovered that people actually valued and collected this useless junk I bought a Northstar-in-a-desk at auction, threw the innards in the trash and kept the desk (now holding a stack of Cromemcos ;-).
>
> m
The fellow responded and as I had suspected had never seen anything this 
old before and had thought that the parts were separable.  He will be 
possibly re-combining them later.  (I had figured he did not know it was 
not a case like PC's where the processors and MB's were routinely 
separated).

I'm sending along the link and contact to some who PM'ed me as well.

Also he is going to hopefully share photos of the entire pile and I'll 
try to help him market the parts in the most profitable way for him.  I 
and the PM'er who will know who he is will hopefully rescue some stuff 
that way.

Thanks
jim

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Sat May 20 16:56:53 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 14:56:53 -0700
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <56cc85bb-af18-b10b-bf36-819afccab353@gmail.com>
References: <f329a45c-2c27-be40-56df-d3733b363bae@jwsss.com>
 <56cc85bb-af18-b10b-bf36-819afccab353@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5fc22cce-2010-7e90-0e90-8b987df970fc@jwsss.com>



On 5/20/2017 7:01 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> Argh,  CPU chips used on dec board loose value as the complete board
> carries the value.
>
> KDF with the second chip is useful but the logic needed to may a "CPU"
> of the raw chips is not trivial.
That was what I figured.  Hopefully the lister will put the two back 
together, but has not done so for now.  he did bring down the price per 
my suggestion he had messed up the value by pulling the chip.
> Best chip for hacking and useful off a board (Falcon, KXT11, RQDX,
> others) is the T11.  Its easily
> useful like a 8085 or Z80.
I've got two boards with T-11's very nice.  The T-11's listed right now 
were higher in cost than the KDJ processor I have, and I have a full 
page archived with the project to bring it up.  Just seemed like an 
interesting project for sometime.

Thanks
Jim

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Sat May 20 16:59:36 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 14:59:36 -0700
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <20170520131215.1886718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20170520131215.1886718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <d0310219-296f-8d0e-3d81-0292ce9473fe@jwsss.com>



On 5/20/2017 6:12 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>      > From: Jim Stephens
>
>      > I just ran across a sale on epay by a guy who thought you could pull
>      > the processor chip off the board and sell each in separate auctions.
>
> There are a lot of idiotz out there.
Turned out he had never encountered this situation and was just doing as 
he has done breaking down other scrap.  Pull breakage one way, and keep 
motherboards and the like (per modern pc's) another. Hopefully he will 
share the other parts of the system and we can see what he got.  Not 
sure how far down it is all been taken though.

When pulling apart old stuff 90's test equipment, advertising scrap, and 
the like they make more than trying to treat everything like a museum 
artifact.  The thing is do they keep doing it once you tell them.  I 
think this guy will listen.  we'll see.
thanks
Jim

From useddec at gmail.com  Sat May 20 17:20:48 2017
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 17:20:48 -0500
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <d0310219-296f-8d0e-3d81-0292ce9473fe@jwsss.com>
References: <20170520131215.1886718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <d0310219-296f-8d0e-3d81-0292ce9473fe@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuO3BSQC+Hr4Wx2pYgCMC+ZWEjye1pQgy=nUiUjxeXO3aQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jim,

I have the M8189 11/23+ boards here. call me tonight if you want.

Paul

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 4:59 PM, jim stephens via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 5/20/2017 6:12 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>
>>      > From: Jim Stephens
>>
>>      > I just ran across a sale on epay by a guy who thought you could
>> pull
>>      > the processor chip off the board and sell each in separate
>> auctions.
>>
>> There are a lot of idiotz out there.
>>
> Turned out he had never encountered this situation and was just doing as
> he has done breaking down other scrap.  Pull breakage one way, and keep
> motherboards and the like (per modern pc's) another. Hopefully he will
> share the other parts of the system and we can see what he got.  Not sure
> how far down it is all been taken though.
>
> When pulling apart old stuff 90's test equipment, advertising scrap, and
> the like they make more than trying to treat everything like a museum
> artifact.  The thing is do they keep doing it once you tell them.  I think
> this guy will listen.  we'll see.
> thanks
> Jim
>

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Sat May 20 17:40:26 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 15:40:26 -0700
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuO3BSQC+Hr4Wx2pYgCMC+ZWEjye1pQgy=nUiUjxeXO3aQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170520131215.1886718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <d0310219-296f-8d0e-3d81-0292ce9473fe@jwsss.com>
 <CACwhfuO3BSQC+Hr4Wx2pYgCMC+ZWEjye1pQgy=nUiUjxeXO3aQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <497002d7-c683-3665-0f26-f28b1e142b4a@jwsss.com>



On 5/20/2017 3:20 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> I have the M8189 11/23+ boards here. call me tonight if you want.
>
> Paul
>
Are there any reasonably priced boards with the processor and memory of 
either the KDF or KDJ processors?

The ones I've seen recently are astronomically priced.  Would be 
interesting to find one with memory, processor and console.

Thanks
jim


Th

From useddec at gmail.com  Sat May 20 17:53:44 2017
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 17:53:44 -0500
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <497002d7-c683-3665-0f26-f28b1e142b4a@jwsss.com>
References: <20170520131215.1886718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <d0310219-296f-8d0e-3d81-0292ce9473fe@jwsss.com>
 <CACwhfuO3BSQC+Hr4Wx2pYgCMC+ZWEjye1pQgy=nUiUjxeXO3aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <497002d7-c683-3665-0f26-f28b1e142b4a@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPg8twV3nk_XUD9+kk9bX-qsWZK6J2YPadthwhfiJv6+A@mail.gmail.com>

I don't remember the board numbers that came with the memory. If you have
specific boards I'll try to check tonight.

I seem to remember some lose J-11 chips somewhere- I'll try to find them.

Thanks, Paul

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 5:40 PM, jim stephens via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 5/20/2017 3:20 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
>
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> I have the M8189 11/23+ boards here. call me tonight if you want.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Are there any reasonably priced boards with the processor and memory of
> either the KDF or KDJ processors?
>
> The ones I've seen recently are astronomically priced.  Would be
> interesting to find one with memory, processor and console.
>
> Thanks
> jim
>
>
> Th
>

From silent700 at gmail.com  Sat May 20 20:05:17 2017
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 20:05:17 -0500
Subject: Announcing: VCF Midwest 12!
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SFytj1CQC+r=mU0Uuiv54XDi3JvYfb9P3Fx1FPerUUh_g@mail.gmail.com>

We did this nerd-fest thing at this hotel last year and no one
complained (much), least of all the hotel, so I think we're up for
another go.

The TWELFTH edition of the Vintage Computer Festival Midwest is
happening September 9th and 10th, 2017 in lovely Elk Grove Village,
Illinois, mere minutes from O'Hare International Airport and an array
suburban shopping and dining opportunities.

Those who have joined us in the past will be happy to know that we're
running the same show (and more!) this year: same location, same
hours, still free to attend, show or sell.  If you're new to VCF
Midwest, you can find all the relevant details at http://vcfmw.org.
If you have any questions not answered there, feel free to contact me
directly.

Registration:
No registration is necessary to attend the show. If you would like a
table(s) for exhibition and/or vending, please contact us via the form
on our site at: http://vcfmw.org/signup.html.  We'll do our best to
get you the space you need.

Presentation:
If you would like to volunteer a talk or demo between 30-60 minutes,
please contact us via the form http://vcfmw.org/pres.html.  Our
friendly events coordinator will get back to you soon.

Accommodation:
Hotel registration is now open!  Follow the link here
http://bit.ly/2phDUyI or at vcfmw.org and reserve your room at our
reduced rate of $89/night. The nights of the 8th, 9th and 10th are
available, with either a single King bed or a dual Queen room. If
you're staying additional nights, they will probably have to be booked
separately at the regular rate - however it's worth calling the hotel
directly at (847) 437-6010 and asking them for the "Vintage Computer
Fes" (yes without the "t") or "VIN" rate on the extra nights. No
guarantees they'll extend it but it's worth a try.  If you have any
other booking needs or difficulties, please call that number as well.
Do not call the main toll-free line for Holiday Inn/IHG. They don't
have the rate code and won't be able to help you.

Hesitation:
Why wait?  Book your room and travel and mark your calendars TODAY.

Socialization:
For Facebook users, there's a FB event here:
https://www.facebook.com/events/805945506224113/
For the tweeting kind, you may follow us at: https://twitter.com/vcfmidwest
Does anyone use Google+ any more?  We have a page here:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/102061024739945029100/102061024739945029100

Donation:
VCF Midwest is a community-supported event, made possible through the
generous donations of attendees, vendors and the organizing staff.  As
such, we humbly beg for your contribution toward the show's expenses,
payable via the PayPal or GoFundMe links on our main page.  Every
donation helps and we appreciate them all.

See you in September!

-j

From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net  Sat May 20 23:53:37 2017
From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 21:53:37 -0700
Subject: Announcing: VCF Midwest 12!
Message-ID: <lk2c3j165kgvmnbj0bdna0rn.1495342417181@email.android.com>


    
Very cool! ?Wish we had one of these up here in Vancouver, BC.


Sent from my Samsung device

-------- Original message --------
From: Jason T via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Date: 2017-05-20  6:05 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: chiclassiccomp at yahoogroups.com, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>, The Rescue List <rescue at sunhelp.org> 
Subject: Announcing: VCF Midwest 12! 

We did this nerd-fest thing at this hotel last year and no one
complained (much), least of all the hotel, so I think we're up for
another go.

The TWELFTH edition of the Vintage Computer Festival Midwest is
happening September 9th and 10th, 2017 in lovely Elk Grove Village,
Illinois, mere minutes from O'Hare International Airport and an array
suburban shopping and dining opportunities.

Those who have joined us in the past will be happy to know that we're
running the same show (and more!) this year: same location, same
hours, still free to attend, show or sell.? If you're new to VCF
Midwest, you can find all the relevant details at http://vcfmw.org.
If you have any questions not answered there, feel free to contact me
directly.

Registration:
No registration is necessary to attend the show. If you would like a
table(s) for exhibition and/or vending, please contact us via the form
on our site at: http://vcfmw.org/signup.html.? We'll do our best to
get you the space you need.

Presentation:
If you would like to volunteer a talk or demo between 30-60 minutes,
please contact us via the form http://vcfmw.org/pres.html.? Our
friendly events coordinator will get back to you soon.

Accommodation:
Hotel registration is now open!? Follow the link here
http://bit.ly/2phDUyI or at vcfmw.org and reserve your room at our
reduced rate of $89/night. The nights of the 8th, 9th and 10th are
available, with either a single King bed or a dual Queen room. If
you're staying additional nights, they will probably have to be booked
separately at the regular rate - however it's worth calling the hotel
directly at (847) 437-6010 and asking them for the "Vintage Computer
Fes" (yes without the "t") or "VIN" rate on the extra nights. No
guarantees they'll extend it but it's worth a try.? If you have any
other booking needs or difficulties, please call that number as well.
Do not call the main toll-free line for Holiday Inn/IHG. They don't
have the rate code and won't be able to help you.

Hesitation:
Why wait?? Book your room and travel and mark your calendars TODAY.

Socialization:
For Facebook users, there's a FB event here:
https://www.facebook.com/events/805945506224113/
For the tweeting kind, you may follow us at: https://twitter.com/vcfmidwest
Does anyone use Google+ any more?? We have a page here:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/102061024739945029100/102061024739945029100

Donation:
VCF Midwest is a community-supported event, made possible through the
generous donations of attendees, vendors and the organizing staff.? As
such, we humbly beg for your contribution toward the show's expenses,
payable via the PayPal or GoFundMe links on our main page.? Every
donation helps and we appreciate them all.

See you in September!

-j

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sat May 20 21:08:53 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 22:08:53 -0400
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <5fc22cce-2010-7e90-0e90-8b987df970fc@jwsss.com>
References: <f329a45c-2c27-be40-56df-d3733b363bae@jwsss.com>
 <56cc85bb-af18-b10b-bf36-819afccab353@gmail.com>
 <5fc22cce-2010-7e90-0e90-8b987df970fc@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <7796ade9-0670-bf90-05ac-59da6eeb183c@gmail.com>

On 05/20/2017 05:56 PM, jim stephens wrote:
>
>
> On 5/20/2017 7:01 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>> Argh,  CPU chips used on dec board loose value as the complete board
>> carries the value.
>>
>> KDF with the second chip is useful but the logic needed to may a "CPU"
>> of the raw chips is not trivial.
> That was what I figured.  Hopefully the lister will put the two back
> together, but has not done so for now.  he did bring down the price
> per my suggestion he had messed up the value by pulling the chip.
>> Best chip for hacking and useful off a board (Falcon, KXT11, RQDX,
>> others) is the T11.  Its easily
>> useful like a 8085 or Z80.
> I've got two boards with T-11's very nice.  The T-11's listed right
> now were higher in cost than the KDJ processor I have, and I have a
> full page archived with the project to bring it up.  Just seemed like
> an interesting project for sometime.
>
The only boards with T11 I have are RQDX1/2/3.  However I have a few
T11s that were ES parts from
my days at DEC and when the group moved they were going to trash them. 
Its an interesting part
as its unique in that the bus width and processor cycles are
configurable and that includes refresh
if needed for Dram (Z280 can do it but it was years later).    It was
intended to be implemented like
the z80 and 8085 for system applications that needed more.

A projects archive for T11, I have to see that.

Allison

> Thanks
> Jim


From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Sun May 21 01:10:46 2017
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 07:10:46 +0100
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <7796ade9-0670-bf90-05ac-59da6eeb183c@gmail.com>
References: <f329a45c-2c27-be40-56df-d3733b363bae@jwsss.com>
 <56cc85bb-af18-b10b-bf36-819afccab353@gmail.com>
 <5fc22cce-2010-7e90-0e90-8b987df970fc@jwsss.com>
 <7796ade9-0670-bf90-05ac-59da6eeb183c@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCwb56LAjY1Q4i_AezXd1sT_RpxVO7QyiG9uBg+1iweahw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 3:08 AM, allison via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> The only boards with T11 I have are RQDX1/2/3.  However I have a few
> T11s that were ES parts from

As an aside, there's a T11 in the VT240 terminal. I am certainly not suggesting
raiding such a terminal for the T11 chip though.

I always thought it was a pity there was no way to run user programs on the
VT240, unlike the GT40. That would have made an interesting 'PDP11' system.

-tony

From p.gebhardt at ymail.com  Sun May 21 03:09:43 2017
From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 08:09:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Help needed: Identifying the right RK611 <-> RK06/RK07 cabling
References: <467660527.4198728.1495354183132.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <467660527.4198728.1495354183132@mail.yahoo.com>

Hello list,

Paul Anderson and myself are trying to figure out the available cabling options that allow to connect an RK611 controller to RK06/RK07 drives.

To my knowledge, there is the possibility to get a drive connect via:

RK611 <-> flat cable <-> cabinet transition bracket <-> round cable <-> RK06/07

The part numbers I found so far:

Flat cable: BC-06R-xx
round cable: 70-12292
or BC23Z-xx

The transition bracket's PN is 70-12415 and is the same as for RL01/RL02 configurations.

The round cable with same connectors as used for RL01/02 cannot be used for RK06/07 as not all cables are wired to the connectors. But a RK06/07 cable can be used for RL01/RL02.
Can the BC-06R also be used for RL01/RL02?

Apparently, there are also direct cable connections between RK611 and RK06/07 existing. In that case, no transition bracket is needed. 


BC80M shielded: RK611 to first drive


... and the cable required to connect two RK07/07 drives:

BC17E    shielded


Can anybody help us in confirming and correcting us regarding the cabling configurations
and the part numbers?

Thanks a lot for your help!
Have a nice Sunday,
Pierre


 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sun May 21 03:40:25 2017
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 08:40:25 +0000
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <5fc22cce-2010-7e90-0e90-8b987df970fc@jwsss.com>
References: <f329a45c-2c27-be40-56df-d3733b363bae@jwsss.com>
 <56cc85bb-af18-b10b-bf36-819afccab353@gmail.com>,
 <5fc22cce-2010-7e90-0e90-8b987df970fc@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0902MB1754E042ED99CD33B59C49A886FB0@HE1PR0902MB1754.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>




Van: jim stephens via cctalk<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: zaterdag 20 mei 2017 23:59
Aan: allison<mailto:allisonportable at gmail.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)



On 5/20/2017 7:01 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> Argh,  CPU chips used on dec board loose value as the complete board
> carries the value.
>
> KDF with the second chip is useful but the logic needed to may a "CPU"
> of the raw chips is not trivial.
That was what I figured.  Hopefully the lister will put the two back
together, but has not done so for now.  he did bring down the price per
my suggestion he had messed up the value by pulling the chip.
> Best chip for hacking and useful off a board (Falcon, KXT11, RQDX,
> others) is the T11.  Its easily
> useful like a 8085 or Z80.
I've got two boards with T-11's very nice.  The T-11's listed right now
were higher in cost than the KDJ processor I have, and I have a full
page archived with the project to bring it up.  Just seemed like an
interesting project for sometime.

Thanks
Jim


Pete McCollum did a project based on the T11. It is a small PCB
with less than 10 ICs. He implemented a Forth environment on it.
I joined that project, but have not done anything with the hardware
till now  ?   That will change when I retire in 7 years (haha) . . .

From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk  Sun May 21 04:08:22 2017
From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 10:08:22 +0100
Subject: Free to a good home, VAXstation 3100 M38, memory errors
In-Reply-To: <87fug3bgpb.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
References: <87fug3bgpb.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
Message-ID: <87fufyo9vd.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>

I won't post it again to avoid spamming people, but just one reminder to
say that the below still available. I did have some interest from abroad
but shipping would be far too expensive and difficult.

> I have a VAXstation 3100 m38 which fails its POST due to problems with
> the on board memory. I am not particularly interested in trying to fix
> it myself, as I have another VAXstation which I am fond of. However, if
> anyone else would like to try and repair it, it is free to a good home.
>
> It seems as though the battery had leaked and caused some. I've cleaned
> it up a bit but of course this wasn't enough to fix it.
>
> The only condition is that you also take it with its alleged life long
> partner, a working VR290 display (cables included). I'm based in
> Nottingham, UK. Please contact me off list if you are interested.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aaron.

--
Aaron Jackson
PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham
http://aaronsplace.co.uk/

From pb at pbcl.net  Sun May 21 04:31:38 2017
From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 10:31:38 +0100
Subject: Free to a good home, VAXstation 3100 M38, memory errors
In-Reply-To: <87fufyo9vd.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
References: <87fug3bgpb.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
 <87fufyo9vd.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1495359098.4362.63.camel@pbcl.net>

On Sun, 2017-05-21 at 10:08 +0100, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote:
> I won't post it again to avoid spamming people, but just one reminder
> to
> say that the below still available. I did have some interest from
> abroad
> but shipping would be far too expensive and difficult.

I'd be interested if you can arrange shipping to Cambridge at a
reasonable cost.  (I will pay for it of course.)  Or if you can box it
up and let me know the size and weight, I could get a courier to come
and collect.  Let me know.

Thanks

Phil


From kylevowen at gmail.com  Sun May 21 09:00:44 2017
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 09:00:44 -0500
Subject: Commercial AIM-65 Video Controller?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSj9+3SFjunSVDsR1q+rQzLwKuUf1BjGJvO36nzitsC6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUw-iLSbgc2DDYve+YCovZgM3jmsuJKMSCy+Y0WAK6uDOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN6PR14MB1585EBA34985506FA21B3459A3FA0@BN6PR14MB1585.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAFrGgTSj9+3SFjunSVDsR1q+rQzLwKuUf1BjGJvO36nzitsC6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUzg7sZFtrqAXevg6wkpFTh3ppvBrF0WXkLv_TT5_qgJ=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On May 20, 2017 3:28 PM, "Eric Smith via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

On May 19, 2017 10:46 PM, "dwight via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

I don't believe the AIM-65 normally does color??


The AIM-65 normally does one color, which is red, on its alphanumeric LED
displays.


Right. This seems to have an additional number of boards that provides
video input and output.

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sun May 21 07:37:48 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 08:37:48 -0400
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <497002d7-c683-3665-0f26-f28b1e142b4a@jwsss.com>
References: <20170520131215.1886718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <d0310219-296f-8d0e-3d81-0292ce9473fe@jwsss.com>
 <CACwhfuO3BSQC+Hr4Wx2pYgCMC+ZWEjye1pQgy=nUiUjxeXO3aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <497002d7-c683-3665-0f26-f28b1e142b4a@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <ecbdf13d-5571-a4ca-1255-9591e7ef5f5a@gmail.com>

On 05/20/2017 06:40 PM, jim stephens via cctech wrote:
>
>
> On 5/20/2017 3:20 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> I have the M8189 11/23+ boards here. call me tonight if you want.
>>
>> Paul
>>
> Are there any reasonably priced boards with the processor and memory
> of either the KDF or KDJ processors?
>

There are no boards with memory in the KDF family (11/23, 23+).  The J11
has one.
IF you want to take a different path find a Pro350(KDF-11) or Pro380(KDJ-11)

> The ones I've seen recently are astronomically priced.  Would be
> interesting to find one with memory, processor and console.
>
A complete system is usually cheaper than the random boards.  I know I
have two sitting.

Allison

> Thanks
> jim
>
>
> Th


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sun May 21 07:39:48 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 08:39:48 -0400
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <CAHkUCCwb56LAjY1Q4i_AezXd1sT_RpxVO7QyiG9uBg+1iweahw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f329a45c-2c27-be40-56df-d3733b363bae@jwsss.com>
 <56cc85bb-af18-b10b-bf36-819afccab353@gmail.com>
 <5fc22cce-2010-7e90-0e90-8b987df970fc@jwsss.com>
 <7796ade9-0670-bf90-05ac-59da6eeb183c@gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCwb56LAjY1Q4i_AezXd1sT_RpxVO7QyiG9uBg+1iweahw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ed342632-5b16-6fbf-a23a-944d66dc2eae@gmail.com>

On 05/21/2017 02:10 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 3:08 AM, allison via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> The only boards with T11 I have are RQDX1/2/3.  However I have a few
>> T11s that were ES parts from
> As an aside, there's a T11 in the VT240 terminal. I am certainly not suggesting
> raiding such a terminal for the T11 chip though.
>
> I always thought it was a pity there was no way to run user programs on the
> VT240, unlike the GT40. That would have made an interesting 'PDP11' system.
>
> -tony
Just change the Eproms...  it has the resources save for all the IO will
be "odd" compared
to most 11s.

Allison

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Sun May 21 08:08:03 2017
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 09:08:03 -0400
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <ecbdf13d-5571-a4ca-1255-9591e7ef5f5a@gmail.com>
References: <20170520131215.1886718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <d0310219-296f-8d0e-3d81-0292ce9473fe@jwsss.com>
 <CACwhfuO3BSQC+Hr4Wx2pYgCMC+ZWEjye1pQgy=nUiUjxeXO3aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <497002d7-c683-3665-0f26-f28b1e142b4a@jwsss.com>
 <ecbdf13d-5571-a4ca-1255-9591e7ef5f5a@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <027301d2d233$48439780$d8cac680$@gmail.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of allison via cctech
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2017 8:38 AM
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

On 05/20/2017 06:40 PM, jim stephens via cctech wrote:
>
>
> On 5/20/2017 3:20 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> I have the M8189 11/23+ boards here. call me tonight if you want.
>>
>> Paul
>>
> Are there any reasonably priced boards with the processor and memory
> of either the KDF or KDJ processors?

KDJ11-D (M7554) aka PDP-11/53  "All you need to add is a hard drive controller."

See: http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/kdj11.htm 

-----


From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk  Sun May 21 10:08:36 2017
From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 17:08:36 +0200
Subject: Commercial AIM-65 Video Controller?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUw-iLSbgc2DDYve+YCovZgM3jmsuJKMSCy+Y0WAK6uDOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUw-iLSbgc2DDYve+YCovZgM3jmsuJKMSCy+Y0WAK6uDOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a765b444-d595-7d9d-f344-b780c586efe5@ljw.me.uk>


On 19/05/17 07:08, Kyle Owen via cctech wrote:
> Any idea what this thing is?
>
> https://imgur.com/a/aNFiK

At a guess I would say it's for (sub-)titling. The text would have to go 
in via serial, with the colour set similarly or via the rotaries.

The video generator would be simple but would have to be locked to the 
input sync, so that might be what the pots are for.

RRRR would be red, GGGG green, YYYY would be brightness/luminance/green, 
and ZZZZ transparency, perhaps. There might also be setting for 
position, but I can't make them all out.

Maybe it would give some sort of startup output at power on (model, 
version) even without serial input?

-- 
Lawrence Wilkinson                          lawrence at ljw.me.uk
The IBM 360/30 page                   http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360


From radioengr at gmail.com  Sun May 21 10:51:54 2017
From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 08:51:54 -0700
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <56cc85bb-af18-b10b-bf36-819afccab353@gmail.com>
References: <f329a45c-2c27-be40-56df-d3733b363bae@jwsss.com>
 <56cc85bb-af18-b10b-bf36-819afccab353@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a3581a56-1cc2-b2eb-a96b-fdfdf179e422@gmail.com>

On 5/20/2017 7:01 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> Best chip for hacking and useful off a board (Falcon, KXT11, RQDX,
> others) is the T11.  Its easily > useful like a 8085 or Z80.

How 'bout a brand new J11-based board for oldie S-100 systems?

<http://www.s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/PDP11%20Board/PDP11%20Board.htm>

Rob.

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun May 21 12:02:07 2017
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 10:02:07 -0700
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <a3581a56-1cc2-b2eb-a96b-fdfdf179e422@gmail.com>
References: <f329a45c-2c27-be40-56df-d3733b363bae@jwsss.com>
 <56cc85bb-af18-b10b-bf36-819afccab353@gmail.com>
 <a3581a56-1cc2-b2eb-a96b-fdfdf179e422@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d3efe790-3b80-f3fa-eae5-bec5260b37f4@bitsavers.org>



On 5/21/17 8:51 AM, Rob Doyle via cctalk wrote:

> How 'bout a brand new J11-based board for oldie S-100 systems?

Reinventing incompatible I/O for existing operating systems.

Maybe if they wrote a new unencumbered OS, but I'm not holding my breath.

I don't get why they abandoned their original Eurocard form factor for something truly
braindead.

Linear regulators on every card is stupid in the era of high efficiency switchers.

Now he's talking about Multibus, so he can use all of those 8" SMD disk and
Pertec tape controller boards. Maybe my boxes of that junk will be worth something now.






From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sun May 21 13:46:29 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 14:46:29 -0400
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <a3581a56-1cc2-b2eb-a96b-fdfdf179e422@gmail.com>
References: <f329a45c-2c27-be40-56df-d3733b363bae@jwsss.com>
 <56cc85bb-af18-b10b-bf36-819afccab353@gmail.com>
 <a3581a56-1cc2-b2eb-a96b-fdfdf179e422@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <63efb993-a59a-c8a1-d4d6-8d51532b4606@gmail.com>

On 05/21/2017 11:51 AM, Rob Doyle via cctalk wrote:
> On 5/20/2017 7:01 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>> Best chip for hacking and useful off a board (Falcon, KXT11, RQDX,
>> others) is the T11.  Its easily > useful like a 8085 or Z80.
>
> How 'bout a brand new J11-based board for oldie S-100 systems?
>
> <http://www.s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/PDP11%20Board/PDP11%20Board.htm>
>
>
> Rob.
Rob,

A T-11 was easier and fewer issues.

The biggest issue with T/F/J-11 is that all IO is RBW (read before
write, even if read is not used)
making IO difficult.  This is solved by DEC by reading one address and
writing another.  For S100
 doing IO you create BBS7 (bank select 7, logical or of high order 3
bits) as IO/ROM space
and munge the IO address for read and write to be offset for a given target.

Allison

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sun May 21 14:06:51 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 15:06:51 -0400
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <d3efe790-3b80-f3fa-eae5-bec5260b37f4@bitsavers.org>
References: <f329a45c-2c27-be40-56df-d3733b363bae@jwsss.com>
 <56cc85bb-af18-b10b-bf36-819afccab353@gmail.com>
 <a3581a56-1cc2-b2eb-a96b-fdfdf179e422@gmail.com>
 <d3efe790-3b80-f3fa-eae5-bec5260b37f4@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <a6e91f8f-f4ba-0500-6466-6d66dec90247@gmail.com>

On 05/21/2017 01:02 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>
> On 5/21/17 8:51 AM, Rob Doyle via cctalk wrote:
>
>> How 'bout a brand new J11-based board for oldie S-100 systems?
> Reinventing incompatible I/O for existing operating systems.
>
> Maybe if they wrote a new unencumbered OS, but I'm not holding my breath.

Its a PITA for even simple os like RT11.
> I don't get why they abandoned their original Eurocard form factor for something truly
> braindead.
S100 fits everthing, even if not well.

> Linear regulators on every card is stupid in the era of high efficiency switchers.

Its the BUS....  Switchers back then were expensive and not efficient,
nor quiet.
back then they were large too.  It also meant a better buss structure to
distribute
5V without undue voltage drop.  It is why DEC Qbus is only so large
before they
went BA123 with two power supplies.  Ever heard a DEC H780 sing,
loudly!  Your
critical of tech as it was.    In the end S100 was the cheap way for the
day not
expecting to become a monster system that they tended to become.

I have a s100 box I made up without them and its a pain to use boards
across
systems without mods.

Systems I do now don't need S100, SS50, or Multibus as I can put all that
on one small card.

> Now he's talking about Multibus, so he can use all of those 8" SMD disk and
> Pertec tape controller boards. Maybe my boxes of that junk will be worth something now.
>
Multibus was nicer and cleaner but in the end one multibus card can hold an
entire system now and be big and clunky.


Allison



From go at aerodesic.com  Sun May 21 17:15:23 2017
From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 15:15:23 -0700
Subject: Repairing an DEC LA424 Printer
Message-ID: <6ac07ac8-e434-e96a-08e0-40df0697a484@aerodesic.com>

I've inherited an LA424-A2 printer that had been stored for a while but 
now has obvious problems.  Powering up 'jogs' the paper feed motor, 
flashes the three green LEDS on the panel through a rapid sequence, but 
then it stops with the display showing what appears to be a fault code.  
Unfortunately, one of the other parts that is failing is the LCD (16 
char I think) that should be showing a fault code.  It appears to be "CO 
<something>" but I can barely make out the "CO".

Is this LCD use a traditional byte-wide interface and can it be replaced 
with one of the current crop of cheap LCD modules?

Once I can see the fault code, I can begin to determine what else is 
failing, though the manual doesn't seem to be much help on error codes: 
they seem to be simple state-of-operation codes.

Thanks,

Gary



From macro at linux-mips.org  Sun May 21 18:54:09 2017
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 00:54:09 +0100 (BST)
Subject: DECSystem 3100 (broken) for free
In-Reply-To: <647f50a4-3e02-9e9e-7e84-bd7ca09d3267@sdf-eu.org>
References: <647f50a4-3e02-9e9e-7e84-bd7ca09d3267@sdf-eu.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1705220031160.7312@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Mon, 15 May 2017, Lukas Kaminski via cctalk wrote:

> does anybody need a broken MIPS-Server? The battery leaked and corroded the
> mainboard. I already cleaned it up, but it still didn't work... Maybe somebody
> can fix it or use it for spare parts.

 Check the PSU for electrolyte leaks.  The H7821 suffers from the dreaded 
Chemi-Con SXF capacitors, which it has a number of.  Fortunately they're 
mounted leads up, which normally prevents leaks from happening, however if 
a system was stored in the wrong orientation, such as on its side, leaks 
are by now virtually inevitable.  Consequently you may end up with a PSU 
that is still apparently giving power, however it is out of spec and the 
power good line (brown) remains low.  The 3100 won't start then and will 
keep itself in the reset state, with all the diagnostic LEDs steadily lit.

 I've been through this.  Giving a supposedly dead 2100 system a good PSU 
gave it a second life.

 HTH,

  Maciej

From classiccmp at crash.com  Sun May 21 21:31:53 2017
From: classiccmp at crash.com (classiccmp at crash.com)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 19:31:53 -0700
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
Message-ID: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>

Regarding the thread started by Peter Wallace of Mesa Electronics the
other month - I've been by for one load, and there are still tons of DEC
and HP, and a few RS6k, workstations/servers. Including a rare DECserver
that has a TurboChannel Expansion box. Lots of HP 712 and 715
workstations, a C110, DECstations (MIPS) and VAXstations (derp).

Please note that the vintage calculators shown are spoken for. Sorry.

Mesa has to vacate these offices by the end of the month. They're super
nice people, just trying to avoid anything involving a scrapper. Please
dig up that thread and have another look (sorry, traveling).

Link to some photos I took:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/smj_crash/albums/72157683795598746

Again, location is Richmond, East SF Bay, California, USA, Earth, Sol
System, Perseus Arm, etc etc. Convenient to highways and spaceports alike!

Best,
--Steve.



From classiccmp at crash.com  Sun May 21 21:40:18 2017
From: classiccmp at crash.com (classiccmp at crash.com)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 19:40:18 -0700
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
Message-ID: <0f6855ef-784d-23eb-8c99-3e810f251c61@crash.com>

Sorry, forgot - Alphas! Two DEC 3000 model 400, one DEC 3000 model 600,
one DEC 3000 model 600S, and an AlphaServer 600 IIRC.

VAXserver 3300
VAX 4000 model 300
DECtalk DTC01
numerous DEC BA42
DEC "leprechaun" boxes (think VAXstation 2000)

Mac 7200/90
5-10 color CRTs - VRT19, VR299, VR290
Couple smaller HP-badged Trinitrons

TEK 454
Summasketch 2 w/ cursor

Many cables, disks, other random bits!


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Sun May 21 22:14:01 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 20:14:01 -0700
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
Message-ID: <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>



On 5/21/2017 7:31 PM, classiccmp--- via cctalk wrote:
> Mesa has to vacate these offices by the end of the month. They're super
> nice people, just trying to avoid anything involving a scrapper. Please
> dig up that thread and have another look (sorry, traveling).
>
> Link to some photos I took:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/smj_crash/albums/72157683795598746
Steve,
The link is 404 for me.
will look for the other post.
thanks
Jim


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sun May 21 17:11:00 2017
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 15:11:00 -0700
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <027301d2d233$48439780$d8cac680$@gmail.com>
References: <20170520131215.1886718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <d0310219-296f-8d0e-3d81-0292ce9473fe@jwsss.com>
 <CACwhfuO3BSQC+Hr4Wx2pYgCMC+ZWEjye1pQgy=nUiUjxeXO3aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <497002d7-c683-3665-0f26-f28b1e142b4a@jwsss.com>
 <ecbdf13d-5571-a4ca-1255-9591e7ef5f5a@gmail.com>
 <027301d2d233$48439780$d8cac680$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+Pu0=ZdfMhpTO2bEAVON0cpD2WurP2aA2oMScVQfg14Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 6:08 AM, Paul Birkel via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Are there any reasonably priced boards with the processor and memory
>> of either the KDF or KDJ processors?
>
> KDJ11-D (M7554) aka PDP-11/53  "All you need to add is a hard drive controller."
>
> See: http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/kdj11.htm

Yeah, a DECserver 500 or 550 version of an M7554 is usually the least
expensive version to find. Here are some asking $175.00 or make an
offer.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-KDJ11-SB-M7554-PB-DECSERVER-500-18-MHZ-CPU/111708401901

I picked up a couple of the DECserver 550 version (1.5MB RAM instead
of 512KB) for closer to $50 each, but that was several years ago.

The 11/53 version without the S-handle bracket seem to be a bit less
common. I managed to also grab one of those on eBay a while ago, maybe
less than $100 at the time.

From smj at crash.com  Sun May 21 21:36:46 2017
From: smj at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 19:36:46 -0700
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
Message-ID: <fad30c97-c6b4-b704-aad9-bddc7a8c9476@crash.com>

Sorry, forgot - Alphas! Two DEC 3000 model 400, one DEC 3000 model 600,
one DEC 3000 model 600S, and an AlphaServer 600 IIRC.

VAXserver 3300
VAX 4000 model 300
DECtalk DTC01
numerous DEC BA42
DEC "leprechaun" boxes (think VAXstation 2000)

Mac 7200/90
5-10 color CRTs - VRT19, VR299, VR290
Couple smaller HP-badged Trinitrons

TEK 454
Summasketch 2 w/ cursor

Many cables, disks, other random bits!


From jws-gmail at jwsss.com  Sun May 21 22:21:13 2017
From: jws-gmail at jwsss.com (jws-gmail)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 20:21:13 -0700
Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703161620280.22105@freeby.mesanet.com>
References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com>
 <CAALmimk5HTXABnhnfXtPeDAv1Fq8N9_F+58uiLdH=ZVjibKoTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com>
 <BY1PR01MB138555ECEE84F3F3CFDB5C36ED260@BY1PR01MB1385.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1703161620280.22105@freeby.mesanet.com>
Message-ID: <4a922cfb-e012-6d06-c841-3a4125808f23@jwsss.com>


Original post for Steve / everyone's reference

On 3/17/2017 12:56 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk wrote:
> We need to move our business and I have about a ton of
> classic cimputer junk in the SFBA that need to go or get scrapped:
>
> Many Decstations (3100, 5000/1xx and 5000/240/260s series even a 5100)
> many Vaxstations 3100s mostly
> Vax 4000 300?
> 5" DEC hard drives
> Many DEC mice
> Small Alphas
> Dec/HP  CRT monitors
> HP ~1990s Unix workstations and parts
> Versatec CE3000 plotter (huge)
> test equipment (misc Tek scopes and plugins mainly)
> Symbolics 3645? (from Guy Sotomayer a few years back)
> HP 2115? mini
> PDP 11
> Couple 3 KW UPSs with bad batterys
> SR22 calculator
> Altos 5 15
>  etc
>
> Would really like all to go to someone in the CC community who can 
> take all and sort/distribute themselves rather than cherry pick but 
> that may be optimistic...
>
> Peter Wallace
>
Richmond CA (Hilltop business park)  From this I googled the approximate 
location below
https://goo.gl/maps/PNiZHq7UDES2

I'm too far away to make a significant run, but would love some of the 
mentioned things if someone could arrange for me (contact off list).

thanks
Jim

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon May 22 01:21:17 2017
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 07:21:17 +0100
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
Message-ID: <014d01d2d2c3$9fb4fd20$df1ef760$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of classiccmp--
> - via cctalk
> Sent: 22 May 2017 03:32
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
> 
> Regarding the thread started by Peter Wallace of Mesa Electronics the other
> month - I've been by for one load, and there are still tons of DEC and HP, and a
> few RS6k, workstations/servers. Including a rare DECserver that has a
> TurboChannel Expansion box. Lots of HP 712 and 715 workstations, a C110,
> DECstations (MIPS) and VAXstations (derp).
> 
> Please note that the vintage calculators shown are spoken for. Sorry.
> 
> Mesa has to vacate these offices by the end of the month. They're super nice
> people, just trying to avoid anything involving a scrapper. Please dig up that
> thread and have another look (sorry, traveling).
> 
> Link to some photos I took:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/smj_crash/albums/72157683795598746
> 
> Again, location is Richmond, East SF Bay, California, USA, Earth, Sol System,
> Perseus Arm, etc etc. Convenient to highways and spaceports alike!
> 


I am hoping to get one of the MIPS shipped to the UK, unfortunately all the 5000/260s had gone, but he still has some 240s, so I hope to get one of those.

Regards

Rob


From seefriek at gmail.com  Mon May 22 06:20:34 2017
From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 07:20:34 -0400
Subject: CFL (was: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11)
Message-ID: <CAOrcWjy75bA9CuL3sM3EujcwQF30Ja7zaTsZs2D4aoG+KNq=Sw@mail.gmail.com>

> And if you break one you  have to call HAZMAT.  You did realize that,
> didn't you?  They contain mercury and any breakage requires professional
> remediation by law!!

Please quit spreading this urban legend.  Some care in handling is
recommended, but no professional help is required, by law! or
otherwise.

https://www.epa.gov/cfl/cleaning-broken-cfl

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Mon May 22 06:21:52 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 11:21:52 +0000
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB13029CF109AADC3B35DECEA4EDF80@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Too bad I'm on the wrong coast.  I would love and RS68K or two.  :-(
Even a Decstation!!

bill

________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of classiccmp--- via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2017 10:31 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA

Regarding the thread started by Peter Wallace of Mesa Electronics the
other month - I've been by for one load, and there are still tons of DEC
and HP, and a few RS6k, workstations/servers. Including a rare DECserver
that has a TurboChannel Expansion box. Lots of HP 712 and 715
workstations, a C110, DECstations (MIPS) and VAXstations (derp).

Please note that the vintage calculators shown are spoken for. Sorry.

Mesa has to vacate these offices by the end of the month. They're super
nice people, just trying to avoid anything involving a scrapper. Please
dig up that thread and have another look (sorry, traveling).

Link to some photos I took:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/smj_crash/albums/72157683795598746

Again, location is Richmond, East SF Bay, California, USA, Earth, Sol
System, Perseus Arm, etc etc. Convenient to highways and spaceports alike!

Best,
--Steve.



From db at db.net  Mon May 22 06:39:39 2017
From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 07:39:39 -0400
Subject: CFL (was: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11)
In-Reply-To: <CAOrcWjy75bA9CuL3sM3EujcwQF30Ja7zaTsZs2D4aoG+KNq=Sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjy75bA9CuL3sM3EujcwQF30Ja7zaTsZs2D4aoG+KNq=Sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170522113939.GA37701@night.db.net>

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 07:20:34AM -0400, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote:
> > And if you break one you  have to call HAZMAT.  You did realize that,
> > didn't you?  They contain mercury and any breakage requires professional
> > remediation by law!!
> 
> Please quit spreading this urban legend.  Some care in handling is
> recommended, but no professional help is required, by law! or
> otherwise.
> 
> https://www.epa.gov/cfl/cleaning-broken-cfl
> 

Fluorescent bulbs contain more mercurty than CFL's yet no one worries
about them breaking. 

https://www3.epa.gov/region02/waste/spent-lamp.pdf

72 Diane VA3DB
-- 
- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon May 22 06:57:33 2017
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 13:57:33 +0200
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <0f6855ef-784d-23eb-8c99-3e810f251c61@crash.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <0f6855ef-784d-23eb-8c99-3e810f251c61@crash.com>
Message-ID: <20170522115732.GN20746@Update.UU.SE>

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 07:40:18PM -0700, classiccmp--- via cctalk wrote:
>
> DECtalk DTC01

I've been looking for one of these for ages :) Someone should rescue 
it.

/P

From ams at gnu.org  Mon May 22 07:12:08 2017
From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 08:12:08 -0400
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB13023F204F1CDAEF1986C06AEDFA0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 (message from Bill Gunshannon via cctalk on Sat, 20 May 2017 02:01:12
 +0000)
References: <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170519104523.GA10405@mooli.org.uk>
 <BN3PR01MB1302105D0EA45FBC58AC228AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <20170519121343.GA12558@mooli.org.uk>,
 <9613f719-5c66-f650-81eb-1aa2896437f1@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023F204F1CDAEF1986C06AEDFA0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <E1dCmC0-00005R-NS@fencepost.gnu.org>

   And if you break one you  have to call HAZMAT.  You did realize that,
   didn't you?  They contain mercury and any breakage requires professional
   remediation by law!!

Uhm... No you don't.  Stop the fearmongering please ...

From ams at gnu.org  Mon May 22 07:15:08 2017
From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 08:15:08 -0400
Subject: CFL (was: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11)
In-Reply-To: <20170522113939.GA37701@night.db.net> (message from Diane Bruce
 via cctalk on Mon, 22 May 2017 07:39:39 -0400)
References: <CAOrcWjy75bA9CuL3sM3EujcwQF30Ja7zaTsZs2D4aoG+KNq=Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170522113939.GA37701@night.db.net>
Message-ID: <E1dCmEu-0000Wj-HM@fencepost.gnu.org>

You don't even need call the law if you break a mercury thermometer,
which is about 3-4 grams of mercury.  A bulb has what, a few
miligrams?

From js at cimmeri.com  Mon May 22 08:13:51 2017
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 08:13:51 -0500
Subject: CFL
In-Reply-To: <20170522113939.GA37701@night.db.net>
References: <CAOrcWjy75bA9CuL3sM3EujcwQF30Ja7zaTsZs2D4aoG+KNq=Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170522113939.GA37701@night.db.net>
Message-ID: <5922E40F.7030901@cimmeri.com>

On 5/22/2017 6:39 AM, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 07:20:34AM -0400, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote:
>>> And if you break one you  have to call HAZMAT.  You did realize that,
>>> didn't you?  They contain mercury and any breakage requires professional
>>> remediation by law!!
>> Please quit spreading this urban legend.  Some care in handling is
>> recommended, but no professional help is required, by law! or
>> otherwise.
>>
>> https://www.epa.gov/cfl/cleaning-broken-cfl
>>
> Fluorescent bulbs contain more mercurty than CFL's yet no one worries
> about them breaking.
>
> https://www3.epa.gov/region02/waste/spent-lamp.pdf
>
> 72 Diane VA3DB

Maybe you don't, but I sure worry about fluorescents AND CFLS's breaking.
Although the document you link to is specific for businesses in just
4 states, the entire document IS concerned with the hazard these bulbs
are.

- J.

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon May 22 08:58:20 2017
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 09:58:20 -0400
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+Pu0=ZdfMhpTO2bEAVON0cpD2WurP2aA2oMScVQfg14Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170520131215.1886718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <d0310219-296f-8d0e-3d81-0292ce9473fe@jwsss.com>
 <CACwhfuO3BSQC+Hr4Wx2pYgCMC+ZWEjye1pQgy=nUiUjxeXO3aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <497002d7-c683-3665-0f26-f28b1e142b4a@jwsss.com>
 <ecbdf13d-5571-a4ca-1255-9591e7ef5f5a@gmail.com>
 <027301d2d233$48439780$d8cac680$@gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOw+Pu0=ZdfMhpTO2bEAVON0cpD2WurP2aA2oMScVQfg14Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=MO4UJApHt2=isWOC9ftv2-rvKVe51Xt_uTJ6DtX_ynA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> KDJ11-D (M7554) aka PDP-11/53  "All you need to add is a hard drive controller."
>>
>> See: http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/kdj11.htm
>
> Yeah, a DECserver 500 or 550 version of an M7554 is usually the least
> expensive version to find. Here are some asking $175.00 or make an
> offer.

Glad I got one a while back...

> I picked up a couple of the DECserver 550 version (1.5MB RAM instead
> of 512KB) for closer to $50 each, but that was several years ago.

Indeed.  I'll have to check mine to see if I have an M7554-SC (512KB)
or M7554-SE (1.5MB)  There appear to be a large number of types of
M7554 in the field guide - different handles, different board etches,
different boot ROMs...

> The 11/53 version without the S-handle bracket seem to be a bit less
> common. I managed to also grab one of those on eBay a while ago, maybe
> less than $100 at the time.

Those were usually found in late-model MicroPDP-11s, and not as
plentiful as some types of PDP-11, IME.

I worked with one in Aug, 1988 that was running MUMPS (a customer
wanted our company to bump up their storage - that was an adventure as
neither of us doing the work had ever used MUMPS before, and it was
all menu-driven and nothing like any other PDP-11 OS that we had
encountered before).

-ethan

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Mon May 22 08:20:46 2017
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 13:20:46 +0000
Subject: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <E1dCmC0-00005R-NS@fencepost.gnu.org>
References: <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170519104523.GA10405@mooli.org.uk>
 <BN3PR01MB1302105D0EA45FBC58AC228AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <20170519121343.GA12558@mooli.org.uk>,
 <9613f719-5c66-f650-81eb-1aa2896437f1@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023F204F1CDAEF1986C06AEDFA0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>,
 <E1dCmC0-00005R-NS@fencepost.gnu.org>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB13021D867E238E492E6D1675EDF80@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>



OK, I retract my statement.  I researched it and apparently the government
no longer cares.  I refused to use them when they first came out because
they were considered environmental nightmares and, at least in PA, there
were strict controls.  I still wouldn't use them, but then I don't have to as
LED lights are avaialble.  I still have flourescent lights, but as they die I will
be replacing them with LED as well.

bill

________________________________________
From: Alfred M. Szmidt [ams at gnu.org]
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 8:12 AM
To: Bill Gunshannon; General    Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Cc: jwsmail at jwsss.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11

   And if you break one you  have to call HAZMAT.  You did realize that,
   didn't you?  They contain mercury and any breakage requires professional
   remediation by law!!

Uhm... No you don't.  Stop the fearmongering please ...

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon May 22 09:17:41 2017
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 09:17:41 -0500
Subject: OT (was RE: CFL AND BBS software for PDP11)
Message-ID: <000001d2d306$2c917380$85b45a80$@classiccmp.org>

Unless somehow the discussion of CFL bulbs revolves around front panel light
replacement.... this thread needs to die.

J



From chris at groessler.org  Mon May 22 09:21:30 2017
From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 16:21:30 +0200
Subject: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR01MB13021D867E238E492E6D1675EDF80@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170519104523.GA10405@mooli.org.uk>
 <BN3PR01MB1302105D0EA45FBC58AC228AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <20170519121343.GA12558@mooli.org.uk>
 <9613f719-5c66-f650-81eb-1aa2896437f1@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023F204F1CDAEF1986C06AEDFA0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <E1dCmC0-00005R-NS@fencepost.gnu.org>
 <BN3PR01MB13021D867E238E492E6D1675EDF80@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <af2a3afc-a9af-e5de-b5f5-1453e547a558@groessler.org>

At least here in the EU, they banned mercury batteries, mostly used by 
old photo gear, and then supported light bulbs containing mercury.

How many people will need and by these batteries and how many people 
need and buy light bulbs?

Go figure...

regards,
chris



On 05/22/17 15:20, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>
> OK, I retract my statement.  I researched it and apparently the government
> no longer cares.  I refused to use them when they first came out because
> they were considered environmental nightmares and, at least in PA, there
> were strict controls.  I still wouldn't use them, but then I don't have to as
> LED lights are avaialble.  I still have flourescent lights, but as they die I will
> be replacing them with LED as well.
>
> bill
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Alfred M. Szmidt [ams at gnu.org]
> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 8:12 AM
> To: Bill Gunshannon; General    Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Cc: jwsmail at jwsss.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: BBS software for the PDP 11
>
>     And if you break one you  have to call HAZMAT.  You did realize that,
>     didn't you?  They contain mercury and any breakage requires professional
>     remediation by law!!
>
> Uhm... No you don't.  Stop the fearmongering please ...
>


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon May 22 09:38:32 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 10:38:32 -0400
Subject: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)
In-Reply-To: <af2a3afc-a9af-e5de-b5f5-1453e547a558@groessler.org>
References: <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170519104523.GA10405@mooli.org.uk>
 <BN3PR01MB1302105D0EA45FBC58AC228AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <20170519121343.GA12558@mooli.org.uk>
 <9613f719-5c66-f650-81eb-1aa2896437f1@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023F204F1CDAEF1986C06AEDFA0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <E1dCmC0-00005R-NS@fencepost.gnu.org>
 <BN3PR01MB13021D867E238E492E6D1675EDF80@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <af2a3afc-a9af-e5de-b5f5-1453e547a558@groessler.org>
Message-ID: <C0B30DD0-9677-4C48-8F11-EF1479B59709@comcast.net>


> On May 22, 2017, at 10:21 AM, Christian Groessler via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> At least here in the EU, they banned mercury batteries, mostly used by old photo gear, and then supported light bulbs containing mercury.
> 
> How many people will need and by these batteries and how many people need and buy light bulbs?
> 
> Go figure...

I could make all sorts of comments but since that's politics it would be off topic.  Mercury batteries seem to be banned in the USA also, or at least they aren't available any longer.  Annoying since I have some microphones that use them.  I suppose I could make an adapter to fit in some 3v lithium cells and get "close enough".

I'm not sure if "mercury" batteries contain metallic mercury or mercury salts.  Metallic mercury is actually pretty much harmless, even though bringing a thermometer into a US school can cause a major panic.  Mercury salts are a different matter.  Mercury vapor should also be avoided, at least in significant quantities and long term exposure, as my father found out as a university student in chemistry.

	paul



From db at db.net  Mon May 22 09:52:39 2017
From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 10:52:39 -0400
Subject: CFL
In-Reply-To: <5922E40F.7030901@cimmeri.com>
References: <CAOrcWjy75bA9CuL3sM3EujcwQF30Ja7zaTsZs2D4aoG+KNq=Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170522113939.GA37701@night.db.net>
 <5922E40F.7030901@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <20170522145239.GA39824@night.db.net>

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 08:13:51AM -0500, js--- via cctalk wrote:
...
> Maybe you don't, but I sure worry about fluorescents AND CFLS's breaking.
> Although the document you link to is specific for businesses in just
> 4 states, the entire document IS concerned with the hazard these bulbs
> are.

I never said I wasn't worried about both fluorescents and CFL's.
I find it horrendous that people freak out over CFL's yet blithely
throw their fluorescents into the garbage without a thought; And yet
older fluorescents were far worse than modern CFL's. We are furiously
agreeing they should both be handled properly.

> 
> - J.
> 

Diane
-- 
- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db

From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com  Mon May 22 10:23:00 2017
From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 09:23:00 -0600
Subject: PDP Power Usage WAS: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <00f401d2d0f6$47bf0940$d73d1bc0$@net>
References: <E4222694-F6CE-4AA4-892B-FA4BD85AFE41@MatlockFamily.com>
 <00f401d2d0f6$47bf0940$d73d1bc0$@net>
Message-ID: <CAM_jmsm2VKM57NWbwK-dGHWJQgKVpkJ3PUVuKHJk=phfv1JEcQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Ali via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> > ___________________________________
> > The plate on the back of my 11/93 says 345 Watts.  That's about a fifth
> > what your wifes hair dryer draws.  Or slightly more than 3 100 watt
> > light bulbs (which your kids leave on all over the house all the
> > time!!) bill
> >
> > I run a similar PDP-11/83 system 24/7 on a BA23 in a Pedestal stand. It
> > has two 2MB memory boards, an Emulex UC07 connected to two SCSI2SD
> > Cards emulating two RD54s and two RA92s, and a DELQA-T running RSX11M+,
> > DECnet and Johnny Billquist;s TCP/IP and it draws 100-105 watts on my
> > UPS.
>
> Doesn't seem that bad, I am sure some of my vintage servers w/ the 10-12 FH
> SCSI drives, "tons of RAM, and four PPro chips are pulling somewhere along
> those numbers. I may have to invest in a Kill-a-Watt type device to see for
> sure though.
>
> -Ali
>

My PDP-8A with 32k core, RX01 Floppy and an extra serial port card pulls
345 watts.
It would be another 100 if I had not replaced the factory fans with modern
lower
airflow units.  If left on 24/7 this would increase the average power bill
in the US by
about 30 dollars a month.

If you want to run a modern version of a BBS and not have it add
significantly to your
power bill then run it on a modern laptop.  These can pull around 50 watts
when awake
and this would add only a little over $4 to the average power bill in the
US.

For even less power would be to use an Arduino (probably a Due) because
then you are
talking less than 4 watts.  This would be about 35 cents per month.

I wouldn't want to run my Straight 8 24x7.and pay the power bill.

-- 
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon May 22 10:36:57 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 08:36:57 -0700
Subject: CFL
In-Reply-To: <20170522145239.GA39824@night.db.net>
References: <CAOrcWjy75bA9CuL3sM3EujcwQF30Ja7zaTsZs2D4aoG+KNq=Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170522113939.GA37701@night.db.net> <5922E40F.7030901@cimmeri.com>
 <20170522145239.GA39824@night.db.net>
Message-ID: <703c6fd9-8a20-ba06-05fa-ee23c67bc423@sydex.com>

On 05/22/2017 07:52 AM, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote:

> I never said I wasn't worried about both fluorescents and CFL's. I
> find it horrendous that people freak out over CFL's yet blithely 
> throw their fluorescents into the garbage without a thought; And yet 
> older fluorescents were far worse than modern CFL's. We are
> furiously agreeing they should both be handled properly.

I don't really want to contribute to perpetuating this thread, but I
wonder if there's more mercury in an amalgam dental filling (which many
of us have) than in a CFL.   And that mercury is in your mouth.

Mercury switches were unsurpassed for reliability--I miss them.
Mercury-wetted relays were also very reliable.  Calomel (Hg2Cl2) was
used as a treatment for syphilis, as a purgative and has a fungicide.

As a voltage reference, (e.g. in a Weston cell) it was quite valuable.

It amazes me that being old enough to have endured lead-based paint,
millions of automobiles spewing tetraethyl lead, mercury in my mouth,
Mercurochrome being painted on my scuffs and scratches, somehow I
managed to survive to my golden years.

--Chuck


From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Mon May 22 11:08:08 2017
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 12:08:08 -0400
Subject: CFL
In-Reply-To: <703c6fd9-8a20-ba06-05fa-ee23c67bc423@sydex.com>
References: <CAOrcWjy75bA9CuL3sM3EujcwQF30Ja7zaTsZs2D4aoG+KNq=Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170522113939.GA37701@night.db.net> <5922E40F.7030901@cimmeri.com>
 <20170522145239.GA39824@night.db.net>
 <703c6fd9-8a20-ba06-05fa-ee23c67bc423@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <0af301d2d315$9ae3f3d0$d0abdb70$@verizon.net>

Chuck Guzis wrote:
> I don't really want to contribute to perpetuating this thread, but I wonder
> if there's more mercury in an amalgam dental filling (which many
> of us have) than in a CFL.   And that mercury is in your mouth.
>
> Mercury switches were unsurpassed for reliability--I miss them.
> Mercury-wetted relays were also very reliable.  Calomel (Hg2Cl2) was used
> as a treatment for syphilis, as a purgative and has a fungicide.
>
> As a voltage reference, (e.g. in a Weston cell) it was quite valuable.
>
> It amazes me that being old enough to have endured lead-based paint,
> millions of automobiles spewing tetraethyl lead, mercury in my mouth,
> Mercurochrome being painted on my scuffs and scratches, somehow I
> managed to survive to my golden years.

Don't forget playing with a big tub of Hg in chemistry class.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon May 22 11:15:56 2017
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 11:15:56 -0500
Subject: PDP Power Usage WAS: BBS software for the PDP 11
In-Reply-To: <CAM_jmsm2VKM57NWbwK-dGHWJQgKVpkJ3PUVuKHJk=phfv1JEcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E4222694-F6CE-4AA4-892B-FA4BD85AFE41@MatlockFamily.com>
 <00f401d2d0f6$47bf0940$d73d1bc0$@net>
 <CAM_jmsm2VKM57NWbwK-dGHWJQgKVpkJ3PUVuKHJk=phfv1JEcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <59230EBC.9040107@pico-systems.com>

On 05/22/2017 10:23 AM, Doug Ingraham via cctalk wrote:
> For even less power would be to use an Arduino (probably a 
> Due) because then you are talking less than 4 watts. This 
> would be about 35 cents per month. I wouldn't want to run 
> my Straight 8 24x7.and pay the power bill. 
Or, a Beagle Bone Black, also about 3-5 W depending on CPU 
load, but has a 1 GHz 32-bit RISC processor.
Definitely slower than a top of the line desktop, but 
certainly usable.

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon May 22 11:20:11 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 09:20:11 -0700
Subject: CFL
In-Reply-To: <0af301d2d315$9ae3f3d0$d0abdb70$@verizon.net>
References: <CAOrcWjy75bA9CuL3sM3EujcwQF30Ja7zaTsZs2D4aoG+KNq=Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170522113939.GA37701@night.db.net> <5922E40F.7030901@cimmeri.com>
 <20170522145239.GA39824@night.db.net>
 <703c6fd9-8a20-ba06-05fa-ee23c67bc423@sydex.com>
 <0af301d2d315$9ae3f3d0$d0abdb70$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <1e6374eb-45fc-f054-6670-714edabf2659@sydex.com>

On 05/22/2017 09:08 AM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote:

> Don't forget playing with a big tub of Hg in chemistry class.

Heh.  I remember building a mercury diffusion pump as a special class
project.  If a kid was to spill as much mercury today that I spilled
back then, they'd probably raze the building.

--Chuck


From cctalk at snarc.net  Mon May 22 11:19:57 2017
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 12:19:57 -0400
Subject: Announcing: VCF Midwest 12!
In-Reply-To: <lk2c3j165kgvmnbj0bdna0rn.1495342417181@email.android.com>
References: <lk2c3j165kgvmnbj0bdna0rn.1495342417181@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <0ea0f827-879a-79e5-15c9-e4d27fe8d6bd@snarc.net>

> Very cool!  Wish we had one of these up here in Vancouver, BC.

Vintage Computer Federation will announce a NEW edition of the festival 
soon.

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon May 22 11:50:37 2017
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 17:50:37 +0100
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <20170522115732.GN20746@Update.UU.SE>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <0f6855ef-784d-23eb-8c99-3e810f251c61@crash.com>
 <20170522115732.GN20746@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <019001d2d31b$89ea5820$9dbf0860$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus
> Pihlgren via cctalk
> Sent: 22 May 2017 12:58
> To: classiccmp at crash.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
> 
> On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 07:40:18PM -0700, classiccmp--- via cctalk wrote:
> >
> > DECtalk DTC01
> 
> I've been looking for one of these for ages :) Someone should rescue it.
> 


I must have missed that, I want one of those too...


From brain at jbrain.com  Mon May 22 12:44:18 2017
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 12:44:18 -0500
Subject: Teletype 43
Message-ID: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>

OK, go ahead and roll your eyes at me, but I was Dayton Hamvention last 
weekend, and there was a lonely Teletype Model 43 sitting in the flea 
market (on the ground, no less) for free, and so I decided I needed it 
in my life.

I know it's not considered a "true" teletype, because it's essentially a 
little uC, a KB, and a little dot matrix printer, but I will wear the 
stigma of shame of not owning a "proper" mechanical model 33.  I got 
home last night, and the unit fires up and works (well, in local mode.  
Docs claim it is rs232 out the back, but could not coax anything from my 
PC to it yet), though the ribbon has seen better days.  I used a bit of 
WD-40 to free up the ink, and so things are legible now.

Not sure I need help yet (did not do much debugging yet on rs232), but I 
see the ribbons are no longer available. Thus, I am wondering if anyone 
has a spare one for it, or knows of someone who can restore this ribbon 
(looks like it needs a new polyester ribbon and the internal foam roller 
looks like it will fall apart if I try to rinse it out and re-ink it)

I know it's a long shot to ask, but I figure there was no harm in 
inquiring, and I believe making a home for a model 43 is not entirely 
without value. :-)

Jim

-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon May 22 13:16:59 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 14:16:59 -0400
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>


> On May 22, 2017, at 1:44 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> OK, go ahead and roll your eyes at me, but I was Dayton Hamvention last weekend, and there was a lonely Teletype Model 43 sitting in the flea market (on the ground, no less) for free, and so I decided I needed it in my life.
> 
> I know it's not considered a "true" teletype, because it's essentially a little uC, a KB, and a little dot matrix printer, but I will wear the stigma of shame of not owning a "proper" mechanical model 33.  I got home last night, and the unit fires up and works (well, in local mode.  Docs claim it is rs232 out the back, but could not coax anything from my PC to it yet), 

Does your PC have real RS232?  A lot of "RS232" ports are serial ports, but not with correct RS232 levels.  If you have "TTL RS232" [sic] it won't work with an actual RS232 port.

It may also be RS232-like, as in bipolar signals, but not high enough output voltages to be compliant.  I think modern RS232 receivers tend to accept lower signal levels than the minimum permitted by the spec; older ones may be less forgiving.

Finally, check your DTE vs. DCE orientation; you may need a null modem.  (Or you may not want a null modem.)

	paul



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon May 22 14:26:18 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 12:26:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705221223410.10908@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 22 May 2017, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> Does your PC have real RS232?  A lot of "RS232" ports are serial ports, 
> but not with correct RS232 levels.  If you have "TTL RS232" [sic] it 
> won't work with an actual RS232 port.

The "CLASSIC" example: manager of the Radio Shack Computer Center told me 
that the TRS80 Model 1 Expansion Interface RS-232 board was, "by 
definition" completely "standard" for RS-232, since "RS-232" stood for 
"RADIO SHACK 232".



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon May 22 14:57:52 2017
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 12:57:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705221223410.10908@shell.lmi.net>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705221223410.10908@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705221255460.9940@deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 22 May 2017, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> On Mon, 22 May 2017, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> Does your PC have real RS232?  A lot of "RS232" ports are serial ports, but 
>> not with correct RS232 levels.  If you have "TTL RS232" [sic] it won't work 
>> with an actual RS232 port.
>
> The "CLASSIC" example: manager of the Radio Shack Computer Center told me 
> that the TRS80 Model 1 Expansion Interface RS-232 board was, "by definition" 
> completely "standard" for RS-232, since "RS-232" stood for "RADIO SHACK 232".
>
My jaw would not only have dropped at that statement, but it likely 
would've broken the hinge as well.

It reminds me of the time a cow-orker went to the local Radio Shack 
looking for a GasFET and was told he'd have better luck at an auto parts 
store.

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From turing at shaw.ca  Mon May 22 15:03:41 2017
From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 14:03:41 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705221255460.9940@deltasoft.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705221223410.10908@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705221255460.9940@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <130627690.45009391.1495483421432.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>

I had an employee of an electronics store tell me that the IBM modem software on the 5.25" floppy for Windows would work fine on my Macintosh... in the days long before Macintosh systems used non-Motorola processors. 
That was a fun 'discussion'. 

From: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
To: "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com>, "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 12:57:52 PM 
Subject: Re: Teletype 43 

On Mon, 22 May 2017, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: 

> On Mon, 22 May 2017, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: 
>> Does your PC have real RS232? A lot of "RS232" ports are serial ports, but 
>> not with correct RS232 levels. If you have "TTL RS232" [sic] it won't work 
>> with an actual RS232 port. 
> 
> The "CLASSIC" example: manager of the Radio Shack Computer Center told me 
> that the TRS80 Model 1 Expansion Interface RS-232 board was, "by definition" 
> completely "standard" for RS-232, since "RS-232" stood for "RADIO SHACK 232". 
> 
My jaw would not only have dropped at that statement, but it likely 
would've broken the hinge as well. 

It reminds me of the time a cow-orker went to the local Radio Shack 
looking for a GasFET and was told he'd have better luck at an auto parts 
store. 

g. 


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. 
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. 
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. 

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment 
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. 
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! 

From alan at alanlee.org  Mon May 22 15:07:57 2017
From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 16:07:57 -0400
Subject: Announcing: VCF Midwest 12!
In-Reply-To: <0ea0f827-879a-79e5-15c9-e4d27fe8d6bd@snarc.net>
References: <lk2c3j165kgvmnbj0bdna0rn.1495342417181@email.android.com>
 <0ea0f827-879a-79e5-15c9-e4d27fe8d6bd@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <f1c476ed4cdaf9fe1f5c798ff991b663@alanlee.org>

 

Is it this one? 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5574940 [1] 

Ronnie, Bobby, Ricky and Mike. If I like the girl who cares who you
like? Certainly a festive - and vintage - New Edition... 

-Alan 

On 2017-05-22 12:19, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: 

>> Very cool! Wish we had one of these up here in Vancouver, BC.
> 
> Vintage Computer Federation will announce a NEW edition of the festival soon.
 

Links:
------
[1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5574940/

From shadoooo at gmail.com  Mon May 22 12:15:53 2017
From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 19:15:53 +0200
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsW1yHe2S+pO8ANThhWpcPFE8apnYy6eF8xRm-Lho_CXDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsW1yHe2S+pO8ANThhWpcPFE8apnYy6eF8xRm-Lho_CXDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM4zSsUe9zjdOxcym3DVp39f==Q20EPwz+o=Lznift9KBn+YWw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
I would really like the Dectalk, if somebody could ship it to me in Italy.
Anybody could help me with this?

Thanks
Andrea

From pete at petelancashire.com  Mon May 22 13:04:11 2017
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 11:04:11 -0700
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u_+Yr2OzPc7Mo6Mqfy+Ux7kXHtvXV2eAQ7J9V5Cj-rj+A@mail.gmail.com>

If someone in the Pacific NW would like to have one, I'm in Portland and go
to Seattle from time to time.

Would like to at least see of it can find a home

https://goo.gl/photos/e2J5vHDGB6UtVFS49

The tractor feed belts have gone to plasticizer heaven



On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> OK, go ahead and roll your eyes at me, but I was Dayton Hamvention last
> weekend, and there was a lonely Teletype Model 43 sitting in the flea
> market (on the ground, no less) for free, and so I decided I needed it in
> my life.
>
> I know it's not considered a "true" teletype, because it's essentially a
> little uC, a KB, and a little dot matrix printer, but I will wear the
> stigma of shame of not owning a "proper" mechanical model 33.  I got home
> last night, and the unit fires up and works (well, in local mode.  Docs
> claim it is rs232 out the back, but could not coax anything from my PC to
> it yet), though the ribbon has seen better days.  I used a bit of WD-40 to
> free up the ink, and so things are legible now.
>
> Not sure I need help yet (did not do much debugging yet on rs232), but I
> see the ribbons are no longer available. Thus, I am wondering if anyone has
> a spare one for it, or knows of someone who can restore this ribbon (looks
> like it needs a new polyester ribbon and the internal foam roller looks
> like it will fall apart if I try to rinse it out and re-ink it)
>
> I know it's a long shot to ask, but I figure there was no harm in
> inquiring, and I believe making a home for a model 43 is not entirely
> without value. :-)
>
> Jim
>
> --
> Jim Brain
> brain at jbrain.com
> www.jbrain.com
>
>
>

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon May 22 15:18:18 2017
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 21:18:18 +0100
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <130627690.45009391.1495483421432.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705221223410.10908@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705221255460.9940@deltasoft.com>
 <130627690.45009391.1495483421432.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <003101d2d338$8d97a280$a8c6e780$@outlook.com>

Not exactly computer related, but many years ago I was looking for a new slide projector. 
I went into Dixons, at the time a UK electronics and photo store.
A young man who said he knew everything about projectors said he would show me the device..
After asking a couple of questions, and receiving replies I knew from reading around, were wrong,
I asked him how easy it was to change the bulb. After 15 enjoyable minutes during which he removed every component, apart from the bulb, (well I enjoyed them, but struggled to keep a straight face)
I said thank you, it was obviously too hard for me, leaving him to re-assemble the thing. Not sure how long he took, I didn't wait to find out..
I then bought the same model from another store (Boots for the UK readers) who were IMHO equally incompetent, but they offered a free 5-Year guarantee...
.. My wife said I was being cruel, and I said, no, all he had to do was admit he didn't know how to change the bulb and find some one who could...

Dave
G4UGM

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Norman
> Jaffe via cctalk
> Sent: 22 May 2017 21:04
> To: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Teletype 43
> 
> I had an employee of an electronics store tell me that the IBM modem
> software on the 5.25" floppy for Windows would work fine on my
> Macintosh... in the days long before Macintosh systems used non-Motorola
> processors.
> That was a fun 'discussion'.
> 
> From: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> To: "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com>, "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 12:57:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Teletype 43
> 
> On Mon, 22 May 2017, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 22 May 2017, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> >> Does your PC have real RS232? A lot of "RS232" ports are serial
> >> ports, but not with correct RS232 levels. If you have "TTL RS232"
> >> [sic] it won't work with an actual RS232 port.
> >
> > The "CLASSIC" example: manager of the Radio Shack Computer Center told
> > me that the TRS80 Model 1 Expansion Interface RS-232 board was, "by
> definition"
> > completely "standard" for RS-232, since "RS-232" stood for "RADIO SHACK
> 232".
> >
> My jaw would not only have dropped at that statement, but it likely would've
> broken the hinge as well.
> 
> It reminds me of the time a cow-orker went to the local Radio Shack looking
> for a GasFET and was told he'd have better luck at an auto parts store.
> 
> g.
> 
> 
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
> 
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value
> database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!


From tosteve at yahoo.com  Mon May 22 15:19:35 2017
From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 20:19:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
References: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi,
In the past, I requested the email address and home city of old computer collectors to a compile a list for my own purposes.
Over 120 people had responded, which is great! Now I want to make this list PUBLIC with a Google map showing everyones location, email, and collecting preferences.
Since I don't have anyone's explicit permission to publish their information, I am now asking.
Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on the public webpage.
Thanks-
Steven Stengelhttp://oldcomputers.net/


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon May 22 15:20:27 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 13:20:27 -0700
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <032b9330-4b9c-20f4-0b78-2085b2b75956@sydex.com>

On 05/22/2017 10:44 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:

> I know it's not considered a "true" teletype, because it's
> essentially a little uC, a KB, and a little dot matrix printer, but I
> will wear the stigma of shame of not owning a "proper" mechanical
> model 33.  I got home last night, and the unit fires up and works
> (well, in local mode. Docs claim it is rs232 out the back, but could
> not coax anything from my PC to it yet), though the ribbon has seen
> better days.  I used a bit of WD-40 to free up the ink, and so things
> are legible now.

It's still pretty significant. In particular, I was a fan of the
Dataspeed Model 40 line pritners.  A tractor-feed band line printer,
that, IIRC, could run at about 150 LPM, but fit on a tabletop.

--Chuck


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon May 22 15:29:22 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 16:29:22 -0400
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBue9w8JE5d-zX3pSNKsnFpG3c++0n44Dmv76GqQ84QTyLw@mail.gmail.com>

can you send a link to the people who are on the list so they can see their
listing?  I personally don't mind as long as any record that includes me
personally does not include my email address or phone number.    I much
prefer to send people to my web page contact form.

Bill Degnan  Landenberg, PA. USA  Contact: vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm



On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:19 PM, steven stengel via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi,
> In the past, I requested the email address and home city of old computer
> collectors to a compile a list for my own purposes.
> Over 120 people had responded, which is great! Now I want to make this
> list PUBLIC with a Google map showing everyones location, email, and
> collecting preferences.
> Since I don't have anyone's explicit permission to publish their
> information, I am now asking.
> Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on the
> public webpage.
> Thanks-
> Steven Stengelhttp://oldcomputers.net/
>
>

From tosteve at yahoo.com  Mon May 22 15:30:54 2017
From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 20:30:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors #2
References: <191182250.3178126.1495485054387.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <191182250.3178126.1495485054387@mail.yahoo.com>

Regrading the previous message, the map would just show the city, not your actually home address, which I do not have, but to be honest, anyone could find it using the internet.


From tosteve at yahoo.com  Mon May 22 15:34:01 2017
From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 20:34:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors #3
References: <1741951003.3205591.1495485241598.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1741951003.3205591.1495485241598@mail.yahoo.com>

Regarding the previous message, all email will be obfuscated to foil scrapers.

 

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Mon May 22 15:38:35 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 13:38:35 -0700
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors #3
In-Reply-To: <1741951003.3205591.1495485241598@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1741951003.3205591.1495485241598.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1741951003.3205591.1495485241598@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <e9aa0054-4e55-1618-e28a-eda4c554fa68@jwsss.com>



On 5/22/2017 1:34 PM, steven stengel via cctalk wrote:
> Regarding the previous message, all email will be obfuscated to foil scrapers.
I already sent Steve a whitelisted email (unique to this use) and my 
spam proof phone# (Google Voice).  I hope this is handy for people as 
Steve gets a lot of stuff.  As one close by, I thank him for thinking of 
me for a lot he gets and doesn't have places in his collection for.  And 
it is impressive.

thanks
jim


From linimon at lonesome.com  Mon May 22 15:52:18 2017
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 15:52:18 -0500
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20170522205218.GA3126@lonesome.com>

I do not want my location information published other than city.

mcl

From jason at textfiles.com  Mon May 22 15:57:34 2017
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 16:57:34 -0400
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <20170522205218.GA3126@lonesome.com>
References: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20170522205218.GA3126@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd31KqBZBtOxZQJfiK=vj=++i7KXhPP6oaRBKSF77MhDjg@mail.gmail.com>

I have no idea if I am on this list or not but I do not want to be on it at
all.

On May 22, 2017 16:52, "Mark Linimon via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> I do not want my location information published other than city.
>
> mcl
>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon May 22 16:06:28 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 17:06:28 -0400
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <CAKnFLd31KqBZBtOxZQJfiK=vj=++i7KXhPP6oaRBKSF77MhDjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20170522205218.GA3126@lonesome.com>
 <CAKnFLd31KqBZBtOxZQJfiK=vj=++i7KXhPP6oaRBKSF77MhDjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuexWBs2ZK62cFd8oYNkX3CtWNimNuoMxRWmKeMNFr+Q1w@mail.gmail.com>

I really think you should give people the chance to yay/neh their listing
and a way to edit/delete.  Otherwise it's a potential risk.  Letting the
world know who has what where coukld invite a thief under the right
circumstances now that I think about it.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On May 22, 2017 4:57 PM, "Jason Scott via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> I have no idea if I am on this list or not but I do not want to be on it at
> all.
>
> On May 22, 2017 16:52, "Mark Linimon via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > I do not want my location information published other than city.
> >
> > mcl
> >
>

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Mon May 22 16:18:46 2017
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 17:18:46 -0400
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
Message-ID: <1fc209.34c325ee.4654afb5@aol.com>

Risk indeed,..
 
Pity the   fool that  brags he has an  APPLE 1...
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 5/22/2017 2:06:36 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

I really  think you should give people the chance to yay/neh their listing
and a way  to edit/delete.  Otherwise it's a potential risk.  Letting  the
world know who has what where coukld invite a thief under the  right
circumstances now that I think about it.

Bill  Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On May 22, 2017 4:57 PM,  "Jason Scott via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> I  have no idea if I am on this list or not but I do not want to be on it 
 at
> all.
>
> On May 22, 2017 16:52, "Mark Linimon via  cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > I do  not want my location information published other than city.
>  >
> > mcl
>  >
>


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon May 22 16:43:22 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 14:43:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705221255460.9940@deltasoft.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705221223410.10908@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1705221255460.9940@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705221441180.10908@shell.lmi.net>

>>> Does your PC have real RS232?  A lot of "RS232" ports are serial ports, 
>> The "CLASSIC" example: manager of the Radio Shack Computer Center told me 
>> that the TRS80 Model 1 Expansion Interface RS-232 board was, "by 
>> definition" completely "standard" for RS-232, since "RS-232" stood for 
>> "RADIO SHACK 232".
On Mon, 22 May 2017, geneb wrote:
> My jaw would not only have dropped at that statement, but it likely would've 
> broken the hinge as well.
> It reminds me of the time a cow-orker went to the local Radio Shack looking 
> for a GasFET and was told he'd have better luck at an auto parts store.

If he had been joking, or poking fun at the way Radio Shack sometimes did 
things differently, then it would have been pretty good.
But, he was serious, and simply passing on something he had been taught at 
one of their management session.


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon May 22 18:44:23 2017
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 16:44:23 -0700
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BE8D2EFC-4460-4C20-B714-DF5C49A68A12@nf6x.net>


> On May 22, 2017, at 1:19 PM, steven stengel via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on the public webpage.

As long as it's just city and email address, I don't mind being on the list. My email address and city are already all over the place, anyway. And while I'm here, thanks again for the items which you have helped move to my collection, and in one case through my collection to an even better home.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon May 22 20:41:08 2017
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 21:41:08 -0400
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimm8+PgJ9HRB0JFnxHkQnJ7Z6D6+jsWBs_Z0nP96irNVXg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> On May 22, 2017, at 1:44 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> OK, go ahead and roll your eyes at me, but I was Dayton Hamvention last weekend,
>> and there was a lonely Teletype Model 43 sitting in the flea market (on the ground, no less)
>> for free, and so I decided I needed it in my life.

No eye-rolling here.  Nice find!

>> I got home last night, and the unit fires up and works (well, in local mode.  Docs claim
>> it is rs232 out the back, but could not coax anything from my PC to it yet),

Do you have a "traffic light"?  I find them invaluable for diagnosing
handshaking and TxD/RxD swaps.

> Does your PC have real RS232?  A lot of "RS232" ports are serial ports, but not with correct
> RS232 levels.  If you have "TTL RS232" [sic] it won't work with an actual RS232 port.

If you are testing from a laptop, this could be it.  Some years back,
I joined our local hackerspace, in part, to get some life out of a
Bridgeport Series II (driven by an M7264 KD11-F processor board) and
after building my own round Tyco serial cable because the former owner
of the Bridgeport was, in his own estimation, no good at soldering,
was initially unable to get any commands to work from my Linux laptop
from a "real" serial port or from a USB dongle.

What worked was a serial port on a desktop.  The first try.

I do know, from examining the boards when we scrapped the Bridgeport,
it uses the ancient and venerable 1488/1489 pair.  I've seen those
work with "modern" serial ports, so I'm unsure why this device had
problems, but it did.  No dongle or laptop tested was functional with
the Bridgeport.

-ethan

From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon May 22 21:28:54 2017
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 19:28:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <CAKnFLd31KqBZBtOxZQJfiK=vj=++i7KXhPP6oaRBKSF77MhDjg@mail.gmail.com> from
 Jason Scott via cctalk at "May 22, 17 04:57:34 pm"
Message-ID: <201705230228.v4N2Ss7Y9765018@floodgap.com>

> I have no idea if I am on this list or not but I do not want to be on it at
> all.

Likewise. Although I support the general notion, I have no idea if I was
listed on it either, and it would have been better to contact the people on
it individually regarding permission IMHO. I'd prefer not to paint a target
on my house if someone were searching the local assessor's database.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- 1-GHz Pentium-III + Java + XSLT == 1-MHz 6502. -- Craig Bruce --------------

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Mon May 22 21:49:04 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 19:49:04 -0700
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <201705230228.v4N2Ss7Y9765018@floodgap.com>
References: <201705230228.v4N2Ss7Y9765018@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <b54d8535-3ce9-847c-2541-c0d71b682e5b@jwsss.com>



On 5/22/2017 7:28 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote:
>> I have no idea if I am on this list or not but I do not want to be on it at
>> all.
> Likewise. Although I support the general notion, I have no idea if I was
> listed on it either, and it would have been better to contact the people on
> it individually regarding permission IMHO. I'd prefer not to paint a target
> on my house if someone were searching the local assessor's database.
>
Steve sent out individual notifications, also.  I suspect the email to 
the list is to rouse those who may not have answered, or had emailed him 
on an old / disused email.

I gave permission.  My name isn't anywhere anyone can find an accurate 
location.  Used a special email on my domain, so can tell if it abused 
somehow, and also have a spam proof phone#.

I have no problem, would welcome people seeing my name and calling to 
see if I have interest or capability to look at vintage systems. Would 
call others and Steve if could pick up but not use.
thanks
jim


From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net  Mon May 22 22:51:24 2017
From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 20:51:24 -0700
Subject: Expander Model 1
Message-ID: <n7ovx9het0wdorah8409018g.1495511096441@email.android.com>

Curious about this machine. ?I've seen a few come up on ebay and they've sold for not much money, mistaken as mere Apple II clones. ?I read Lee Felsenstein's account of creating them and they seem like interesting machines. ?Wondering what sort of value is reasonable to pay for one and how hard it would be to find or rig up a power supply, since they are usually missing that in auctions.

From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Mon May 22 18:30:07 2017
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 19:30:07 -0400
Subject: RICM Data General Rescue
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=8rjmbeZJuOzS+U+KpqLkN8oW98k0O7vFZCeOJcChKSUA@mail.gmail.com>

Dan and I did a rescue run yesterday and came back with four Data General
systems; a Nova/3, a Nova/4, an Eclipse S/20, an Eclipse MV/4000, and a
large assortment of test equipment and spares. All of the systems are in
very nice condition. The Eclipse S/20 is mounted in a cabinet with a model
6125 1/2" tape drive and a fixed disk drive.

In the next week or so I will add them to the RICM WWW page.

-- 
Michael Thompson

From linimon at lonesome.com  Mon May 22 18:50:15 2017
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 18:50:15 -0500
Subject: RICM Data General Rescue
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=8rjmbeZJuOzS+U+KpqLkN8oW98k0O7vFZCeOJcChKSUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=8rjmbeZJuOzS+U+KpqLkN8oW98k0O7vFZCeOJcChKSUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170522235014.GA3530@lonesome.com>

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 07:30:07PM -0400, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote:
> Dan and I did a rescue run yesterday and came back with four Data General
> systems; a Nova/3, a Nova/4, an Eclipse S/20, an Eclipse MV/4000, and a
> large assortment of test equipment and spares.

Nice score!

mcl

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Mon May 22 19:13:16 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 20:13:16 -0400
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <BE8D2EFC-4460-4C20-B714-DF5C49A68A12@nf6x.net>
References: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>
 <BE8D2EFC-4460-4C20-B714-DF5C49A68A12@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <73ff61a8-7721-4eb4-7747-a4fbdbeade58@gmail.com>

On 05/22/2017 07:44 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:
>> On May 22, 2017, at 1:19 PM, steven stengel via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on the public webpage.
> As long as it's just city and email address, I don't mind being on the list. My email address and city are already all over the place, anyway. And while I'm here, thanks again for the items which you have helped move to my collection, and in one case through my collection to an even better home.
>
Same here city, state and email address is good.

Allison Parent, Framingham, MA  Email: KB1GMX at arrl.net (spam proofing
via reflector.)

From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Mon May 22 23:07:37 2017
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 21:07:37 -0700
Subject: RICM Data General Rescue
In-Reply-To: <20170522235014.GA3530@lonesome.com>
References: <CAH1BU=8rjmbeZJuOzS+U+KpqLkN8oW98k0O7vFZCeOJcChKSUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170522235014.GA3530@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAhFokBKQ3TPL1NCN7kUaL+xAqBDjvix2L6xWQ=VF2WAMA@mail.gmail.com>

Man, what beautiful front panels. How much do those systems go for?

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Mark Linimon via cctech <
cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 07:30:07PM -0400, Michael Thompson via cctech
> wrote:
> > Dan and I did a rescue run yesterday and came back with four Data General
> > systems; a Nova/3, a Nova/4, an Eclipse S/20, an Eclipse MV/4000, and a
> > large assortment of test equipment and spares.
>
> Nice score!
>
> mcl
>

From brain at jbrain.com  Mon May 22 23:57:58 2017
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 23:57:58 -0500
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimm8+PgJ9HRB0JFnxHkQnJ7Z6D6+jsWBs_Z0nP96irNVXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimm8+PgJ9HRB0JFnxHkQnJ7Z6D6+jsWBs_Z0nP96irNVXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <028a616a-ce48-1bb5-dcdf-4fd7a26ceaa2@jbrain.com>

On 5/22/2017 8:41 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
>
> Do you have a "traffic light"?  I find them invaluable for diagnosing
> handshaking and TxD/RxD swaps.
Yep.  constant low on TX.
>
> What worked was a serial port on a desktop.  The first try.
It's entirely possible, but I put a scope on the TX line, and I see no 
activity at all with the unit in DATA or TERM READY mode.  The DATA LED 
blinks, so I think I need to signal the Model 43 that it is "connected".

As has been suggested, I joined GreenKeys and asked if someone has a 
similar setup that works, so I can replicate.

Worst case is that the driver board has issues, which at least will 
narrow down my search.

Jim

From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Tue May 23 01:06:43 2017
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 23:06:43 -0700
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBue9w8JE5d-zX3pSNKsnFpG3c++0n44Dmv76GqQ84QTyLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CABGJBue9w8JE5d-zX3pSNKsnFpG3c++0n44Dmv76GqQ84QTyLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170522230643.02913e9a@asrock.bcwi.net>

On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:29:22 -0400
william degnan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> can you send a link to the people who are on the list so they can see
> their listing?  I personally don't mind as long as any record that
> includes me personally does not include my email address or phone
> number.    I much prefer to send people to my web page contact form.

Folks who are on the list should have the opportunity to approve what
will and will not be posted about them. That's not only a legal
requirement in many States, but also common courtesy.

Regards,
Lyle

> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:19 PM, steven stengel via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:  
> 
> > Hi,
> > In the past, I requested the email address and home city of old
> > computer collectors to a compile a list for my own purposes.
> > Over 120 people had responded, which is great! Now I want to make
> > this list PUBLIC with a Google map showing everyones location,
> > email, and collecting preferences.
> > Since I don't have anyone's explicit permission to publish their
> > information, I am now asking.
> > Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on
> > the public webpage.
> > Thanks-
> > Steven Stengelhttp://oldcomputers.net/
> >
> >  



-- 
73      AF6WS
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue May 23 01:07:57 2017
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 07:07:57 +0100
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <028a616a-ce48-1bb5-dcdf-4fd7a26ceaa2@jbrain.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimm8+PgJ9HRB0JFnxHkQnJ7Z6D6+jsWBs_Z0nP96irNVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <028a616a-ce48-1bb5-dcdf-4fd7a26ceaa2@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <00ad01d2d38a$edf17e60$c9d47b20$@outlook.com>

You probably need a null modem cable. As a test try linking 4+5 (rts/cts) and 6+8+20 (dsr/cd/dtr) on the tty plug/socket. (25 way pins)
Then when the terminal brings dtr up (data terminal ready) it also brings up dsr (data set ready) and cd (carrier detect) so it looks like the modem is connected.
Same way when it uses rts (request to send) it also enables cts (clear to send) so the modem has given permission to send data..

Dave
G4ugm

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Brain
> via cctalk
> Sent: 23 May 2017 05:58
> To: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and
> Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; Paul Koning
> <paulkoning at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: Teletype 43
> 
> On 5/22/2017 8:41 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> >
> > Do you have a "traffic light"?  I find them invaluable for diagnosing
> > handshaking and TxD/RxD swaps.
> Yep.  constant low on TX.
> >
> > What worked was a serial port on a desktop.  The first try.
> It's entirely possible, but I put a scope on the TX line, and I see no activity at
> all with the unit in DATA or TERM READY mode.  The DATA LED blinks, so I
> think I need to signal the Model 43 that it is "connected".
> 
> As has been suggested, I joined GreenKeys and asked if someone has a
> similar setup that works, so I can replicate.
> 
> Worst case is that the driver board has issues, which at least will narrow
> down my search.
> 
> Jim


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Tue May 23 01:20:20 2017
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 08:20:20 +0200
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20170523062019.GO20746@Update.UU.SE>


Hi

I don't think I'm on this list, and I prefer not to be.

Thanks,
Pontus.

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 08:19:35PM +0000, steven stengel via cctalk wrote:
> Hi,
> In the past, I requested the email address and home city of old computer collectors to a compile a list for my own purposes.
> Over 120 people had responded, which is great! Now I want to make this list PUBLIC with a Google map showing everyones location, email, and collecting preferences.
> Since I don't have anyone's explicit permission to publish their information, I am now asking.
> Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on the public webpage.
> Thanks-
> Steven Stengelhttp://oldcomputers.net/
> 

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Tue May 23 02:08:52 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 00:08:52 -0700
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <20170522230643.02913e9a@asrock.bcwi.net>
References: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CABGJBue9w8JE5d-zX3pSNKsnFpG3c++0n44Dmv76GqQ84QTyLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170522230643.02913e9a@asrock.bcwi.net>
Message-ID: <db24f1dd-8baf-348d-e9dc-576d70b5fda3@jwsss.com>



On 5/22/2017 11:06 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:29:22 -0400
> william degnan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> can you send a link to the people who are on the list so they can see
>> their listing?  I personally don't mind as long as any record that
>> includes me personally does not include my email address or phone
>> number.    I much prefer to send people to my web page contact form.
> Folks who are on the list should have the opportunity to approve what
> will and will not be posted about them. That's not only a legal
> requirement in many States, but also common courtesy.
>
> Regards,
> Lyle
You do get that this isn't cctalk, but one that people had already sent 
contact info for.  I sent him revised publishable contact info for the 
list.  I realize he probably made the request w/o 40 pages of consent 
forms to read, but he seems to just be asking to allow him to publish 
from that list, and a note here for anyone who didn't see it in their 
email, since the respondents came from here.

thanks
jim

>> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:19 PM, steven stengel via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> In the past, I requested the email address and home city of old
>>> computer collectors to a compile a list for my own purposes.
>>> Over 120 people had responded, which is great! Now I want to make
>>> this list PUBLIC with a Google map showing everyones location,
>>> email, and collecting preferences.
>>> Since I don't have anyone's explicit permission to publish their
>>> information, I am now asking.
>>> Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on
>>> the public webpage.
>>> Thanks-
>>> Steven Stengelhttp://oldcomputers.net/
>>>
>>>   
>
>


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Tue May 23 03:57:44 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 01:57:44 -0700
Subject: usenet text newsgroup archives
Message-ID: <ec667f57-370b-47fa-3848-74814b8a89e2@jwsss.com>

I've not hunted for anything much new on text usenet groups in ages.

However I ran across a reference to a mailman mail list from 2006 call 
sun at home.

Then stumbled across something call os.solaris.at-home.  I presume that 
may be comp.os.solaris.at-home ?

Anyone have a pointer to stable archives.  And perhaps what happened to 
the mailman and archives?

the trail to that list runs like this:

This site with lots of Sun info I can use:
http://www.obsolyte.com/

References this which is "on hiatus":
http://www.net-kitchen.com/mailman/listinfo/suns-at-home

apparently above is by Dwight D. McKay.

 From what I recall of Purdue IT and the like he is probably someone who 
knows or worked with
George Gobel.  (google his liquid oxygen BBQ sometime, for a taste).

This is the link, but the above will hit all sorts of fun madness. Way 
before Mythbusters and the like
as far as "don't try this at home"  (subscript, tell George and let him 
set himself on fire).

https://youtu.be/sab2Ltm1WcM

thanks
Jim

From macro at linux-mips.org  Tue May 23 08:35:52 2017
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 14:35:52 +0100 (BST)
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1705231432220.7312@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Sun, 21 May 2017, classiccmp--- via cctalk wrote:

> Mesa has to vacate these offices by the end of the month. They're super
> nice people, just trying to avoid anything involving a scrapper. Please
> dig up that thread and have another look (sorry, traveling).
> 
> Link to some photos I took:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/smj_crash/albums/72157683795598746
> 
> Again, location is Richmond, East SF Bay, California, USA, Earth, Sol
> System, Perseus Arm, etc etc. Convenient to highways and spaceports alike!

 Do you or anyone have their working contact information?  I sent Peter a 
couple of e-mails over the last weeks, however I got no reply, so I wonder 
if I got something wrong.

 Thanks,

  Maciej

From pcw at mesanet.com  Tue May 23 08:41:51 2017
From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 06:41:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1705231432220.7312@eddie.linux-mips.org>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1705231432220.7312@eddie.linux-mips.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1705230637190.13907@freeby.mesanet.com>

On Tue, 23 May 2017, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote:

> Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 14:35:52 +0100 (BST)
> From: Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Reply-To: Maciej W. Rozycki <macro at linux-mips.org>,
>     "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> To: "classiccmp at crash.com" <classiccmp at crash.com>,
>     "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
> 
> On Sun, 21 May 2017, classiccmp--- via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Mesa has to vacate these offices by the end of the month. They're super
>> nice people, just trying to avoid anything involving a scrapper. Please
>> dig up that thread and have another look (sorry, traveling).
>>
>> Link to some photos I took:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/smj_crash/albums/72157683795598746
>>
>> Again, location is Richmond, East SF Bay, California, USA, Earth, Sol
>> System, Perseus Arm, etc etc. Convenient to highways and spaceports alike!
>
> Do you or anyone have their working contact information?  I sent Peter a
> couple of e-mails over the last weeks, however I got no reply, so I wonder
> if I got something wrong.
>
> Thanks,
>
>  Maciej
>


Sorry we have been very busy trying to get the last stuff done before we move 
to our new location, we have only about 8 days left here so its a rush now...



Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue May 23 08:49:21 2017
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 09:49:21 -0400
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <028a616a-ce48-1bb5-dcdf-4fd7a26ceaa2@jbrain.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimm8+PgJ9HRB0JFnxHkQnJ7Z6D6+jsWBs_Z0nP96irNVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <028a616a-ce48-1bb5-dcdf-4fd7a26ceaa2@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnDE58R_TS+7XcJ0FmV=UCbh6vbH69bgEE=09Cik0_x5A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 12:57 AM, Jim Brain <brain at jbrain.com> wrote:
> On 5/22/2017 8:41 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
>> Do you have a "traffic light"?  I find them invaluable for diagnosing
>> handshaking and TxD/RxD swaps.
>
> Yep.  constant low on TX.

Not a positive sign.

> It's entirely possible, but I put a scope on the TX line, and I see no
> activity at all with the unit in DATA or TERM READY mode.  The DATA LED
> blinks, so I think I need to signal the Model 43 that it is "connected".

If it needs hardware handshaking to work, there are a number of
diagrams out there for how to wire the pins together to make the UART
think it's always OK to send.

One example is:

"Connect pins 8 and 7 (i.e. CTS drives RTS)
Connect pins 1, 4, 6 This should maintain the DTR line in the correct
state, by connecting it to DCD and DSR"

It depends on DCE vs DTE and how the vendor wired up their port, but
it's going to be along those lines.

> As has been suggested, I joined GreenKeys and asked if someone has a similar
> setup that works, so I can replicate.

Handy.

> Worst case is that the driver board has issues, which at least will narrow
> down my search.

Indeed.  It could be the drivers/receivers at the edge of the circuit.
I've had to replace them on occasion when restoring a new-to-me
device.

With a traffic light and an o-scope, it should be easy enough to see
into things - could be cabling, could be a bad IC.  Not seeing TxD
wiggle when you send chars is a pretty fundamental issue.

-ethan

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue May 23 10:15:12 2017
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 11:15:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)
Message-ID: <20170523151512.CD9A618C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jim Stephens

    > The fellow responded and as I had suspected had never seen anything
    > this old before and had thought that the parts were separable.
    > ...
    > Also he is going to hopefully share photos of the entire pile and I'll
    > try to help him market the parts in the most profitable way for him.

This is good to hear.

If he doesn't know about not trashing backplanes, etc (since most people save
the boards, and trash everything else), please let him know about that too.

I just lucked into a DH11 backplane, w/out boards. The boards are, however,
easy to find on eBay, due to people following the 'save the boards' method...

	Noel

From mtapley at swri.edu  Tue May 23 11:29:49 2017
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 16:29:49 +0000
Subject: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)
In-Reply-To: <C0B30DD0-9677-4C48-8F11-EF1479B59709@comcast.net>
References: <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170519104523.GA10405@mooli.org.uk>
 <BN3PR01MB1302105D0EA45FBC58AC228AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <20170519121343.GA12558@mooli.org.uk>
 <9613f719-5c66-f650-81eb-1aa2896437f1@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023F204F1CDAEF1986C06AEDFA0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <E1dCmC0-00005R-NS@fencepost.gnu.org>
 <BN3PR01MB13021D867E238E492E6D1675EDF80@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <af2a3afc-a9af-e5de-b5f5-1453e547a558@groessler.org>
 <C0B30DD0-9677-4C48-8F11-EF1479B59709@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3349DD32-E432-4189-9B98-A3D7808060EE@swri.edu>

On May 22, 2017, at 9:38 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> ...I'm not sure if "mercury" batteries contain metallic mercury or mercury salts.  Metallic mercury is actually pretty much harmless, even though bringing a thermometer into a US school can cause a major panic.  Mercury salts are a different matter.  Mercury vapor should also be avoided, at least in significant quantities and long term exposure, as my father found out as a university student in chemistry.

	To emphasize what Paul says, Mercury considered only as an element has a *very* wide range of toxicity. It depends entirely on the compounds it is bound into. (Similar to, say, Carbon and Nitrogen?.). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Wetterhahn
http://i.imgur.com/0dXdc.jpg

	Karen Wetterhahn spilled a drop of a Mercury compound on her latex glove, and died of it 10 months later. 
I don?t know what happened to the guy who is pictured sitting in (on) a pool of Mercury, but at least it?s clear that at the time, he considered elemental mercury not to be lethally dangerous. I remember seeing the photo in National Geographic, and the caption did say he was very careful to shake out his cuffs, etc after the photo was shot. 

	NatGeo itself also is now clearly aware there is some risk:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/05/160524-indonesia-toxic-toll/

	One problem is that it?s hard to ensure that *all* of the Mercury will stay in the non-toxic forms when handling it.
					- Mark



From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Tue May 23 13:57:15 2017
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 14:57:15 -0400
Subject: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)
In-Reply-To: <3349DD32-E432-4189-9B98-A3D7808060EE@swri.edu>
References: <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <3cc77101-4827-3b17-046d-3766a840dcc3@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs23jXT+Wd6ePd7vPP=Szkwkjpf+UOJmRT5Tx8WdQmKsSTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170519104523.GA10405@mooli.org.uk>
 <BN3PR01MB1302105D0EA45FBC58AC228AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <20170519121343.GA12558@mooli.org.uk>
 <9613f719-5c66-f650-81eb-1aa2896437f1@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023F204F1CDAEF1986C06AEDFA0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <E1dCmC0-00005R-NS@fencepost.gnu.org>
 <BN3PR01MB13021D867E238E492E6D1675EDF80@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <af2a3afc-a9af-e5de-b5f5-1453e547a558@groessler.org>
 <C0B30DD0-9677-4C48-8F11-EF1479B59709@comcast.net> <33
 49DD32-E432-4189-9B98- A3D7808060EE@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <0bfe01d2d3f6$658d4ba0$30a7e2e0$@verizon.net>

I have a hard time getting my head around Dr. Wetterhahn's poisoning.  How
many molecules of the toxin could have possibly entered her body?
How many molecules does it take to kill or fatally disable a cell?  After it
does its damage, does the molecule become available again to do
more damage?  How many cells in her body were actually killed?  Do the
molecules somehow target the cells required to kill an individual?
If you killed just the "right" cells, how many cells does it take to kill a
person?

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tapley,
Mark via cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:30 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)

On May 22, 2017, at 9:38 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> ...I'm not sure if "mercury" batteries contain metallic mercury or mercury
salts.  Metallic mercury is actually pretty much harmless, even though
bringing a thermometer into a US school can cause a major panic.  Mercury
salts are a different matter.  Mercury vapor should also be avoided, at
least in significant quantities and long term exposure, as my father found
out as a university student in chemistry.

	To emphasize what Paul says, Mercury considered only as an element
has a *very* wide range of toxicity. It depends entirely on the compounds it
is bound into. (Similar to, say, Carbon and Nitrogen..). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Wetterhahn
http://i.imgur.com/0dXdc.jpg

	Karen Wetterhahn spilled a drop of a Mercury compound on her latex
glove, and died of it 10 months later. 
I don't know what happened to the guy who is pictured sitting in (on) a pool
of Mercury, but at least it's clear that at the time, he considered
elemental mercury not to be lethally dangerous. I remember seeing the photo
in National Geographic, and the caption did say he was very careful to shake
out his cuffs, etc after the photo was shot. 

	NatGeo itself also is now clearly aware there is some risk:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/05/160524-indonesia-toxic-toll/

	One problem is that it's hard to ensure that *all* of the Mercury
will stay in the non-toxic forms when handling it.
					- Mark



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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From tosteve at yahoo.com  Tue May 23 14:05:26 2017
From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 19:05:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <db24f1dd-8baf-348d-e9dc-576d70b5fda3@jwsss.com>
References: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CABGJBue9w8JE5d-zX3pSNKsnFpG3c++0n44Dmv76GqQ84QTyLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170522230643.02913e9a@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <db24f1dd-8baf-348d-e9dc-576d70b5fda3@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <2053417937.506011.1495566326946@mail.yahoo.com>

I will post anything you want me to, just tell me.
email is not necessary, a link or website will do fine as well.The map is intended to be a method to see who's where for assistance, trading, meet-ups, etc.There's hundreds of people here, but few know where each other live, I suppose.



      From: jim stephens via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org 
 Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:09 AM
 Subject: Re: Directory of old computer collectors
   


On 5/22/2017 11:06 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:29:22 -0400
> william degnan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> can you send a link to the people who are on the list so they can see
>> their listing?? I personally don't mind as long as any record that
>> includes me personally does not include my email address or phone
>> number.? ? I much prefer to send people to my web page contact form.
> Folks who are on the list should have the opportunity to approve what
> will and will not be posted about them. That's not only a legal
> requirement in many States, but also common courtesy.
>
> Regards,
> Lyle
You do get that this isn't cctalk, but one that people had already sent 
contact info for.? I sent him revised publishable contact info for the 
list.? I realize he probably made the request w/o 40 pages of consent 
forms to read, but he seems to just be asking to allow him to publish 
from that list, and a note here for anyone who didn't see it in their 
email, since the respondents came from here.

thanks
jim

>> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:19 PM, steven stengel via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> In the past, I requested the email address and home city of old
>>> computer collectors to a compile a list for my own purposes.
>>> Over 120 people had responded, which is great! Now I want to make
>>> this list PUBLIC with a Google map showing everyones location,
>>> email, and collecting preferences.
>>> Since I don't have anyone's explicit permission to publish their
>>> information, I am now asking.
>>> Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on
>>> the public webpage.
>>> Thanks-
>>> Steven Stengelhttp://oldcomputers.net/
>>>
>>>? 
>
>



   

From spectre at floodgap.com  Tue May 23 18:42:11 2017
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 16:42:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)
In-Reply-To: <0bfe01d2d3f6$658d4ba0$30a7e2e0$@verizon.net> from William
 Sudbrink via cctalk at "May 23, 17 02:57:15 pm"
Message-ID: <201705232342.v4NNgBYr7733400@floodgap.com>

> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Wetterhahn
> > http://i.imgur.com/0dXdc.jpg
> >
> >	Karen Wetterhahn spilled a drop of a Mercury compound on her latex
> > glove, and died of it 10 months later. 
>
> I have a hard time getting my head around Dr. Wetterhahn's poisoning.  How
> many molecules of the toxin could have possibly entered her body?
> How many molecules does it take to kill or fatally disable a cell?  After it
> does its damage, does the molecule become available again to do
> more damage?  How many cells in her body were actually killed?  Do the
> molecules somehow target the cells required to kill an individual?
> If you killed just the "right" cells, how many cells does it take to kill a
> person?

I can't answer the cell count, but I can give a general answer on the rest.

Mercury interferes with multiple enzymatic processes -- some of them
permanently -- and it can be slow to metabolize (half life of approximately
two months), meaning even a small dose can destroy a lot of cells. The central
nervous system is at greatest risk because these enzymes frequently repair
oxidative damage from metabolic processes, and nerve cells have high rates of
metabolism for processing.

As mentioned, mercury compounds are often far more toxic than the pure form.
Dimethylmercury is especially effective because the extra methyl groups enable
it to very easily enter the body and pass through cell membranes but
only very slowly be eliminated from it; some metabolites can actually bind
to tissues and remain. In this case, as little as 0.1mL is enough to cause
severe or fatal poisoning according to the OSHA bulletins I have here because
it will enter cells and accumulate there. Once it reaches the central
nervous system, that's it. The NEJM article on the Wetterhahn case (read:

	http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199806043382305

) estimates a lethal dose of the compound would be about 5mg/kg body weight.

(As an aside, though, mercury-containing antiseptics such as thiomersal
"Merthiolate" and merbromin can be safe and effective sterilizers in very
low concentrations. They work through the oligodynamic effect. I grew up
with my mother wielding the Mercurochrome whenever I'd get a cut, and I think
it was unfairly removed from the market -- not due to toxicity, but because
it was a generic product with no profit potential, so the pharmas wouldn't
do the studies and the FDA classified it as "non-GRAS" along with a number 
of other orphaned compounds in 1998. It is still very common outside the US.)

In the Wetterhahn case, latex and PVC gloves are also easily penetrated by
the compound (including those she was wearing), affording her no protection
at all when it spilled on her and was able to pass through her skin into the
bloodstream. It is also possible part of her toxic dose came from vapour,
although the fume hood should have reduced this. By the time her symptoms
indicated that she had indeed received a toxic dose, chelation therapy would
have been ineffective, as it indeed was. The estimated total dose per the
NEJM article was about 1.3g of mercury, over three times the lethal amount.

Don't mess with it.

(MD, MPH)

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- You are not ready! ---------------------------------------------------------

From imp at bsdimp.com  Tue May 23 19:13:08 2017
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 18:13:08 -0600
Subject: Fixing flakey floppies
Message-ID: <CANCZdfpDkRcrbs5pWZe=uKW9hLETBniAzRCzbX8YS_k+M1Nmww@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings,

I have three flakey floppies. I wonder if they are worth fixing. Two are
TEAC FD-55FRs. One appears to not report the INDEX mark, the other works
well until around track 35 or so then fails... The third floppy is a 1.2 MB
YD-380. It won't reliably move the head...

I've tried cleaning the heads (which rehabbed a forth drive: a TEAC
FD-55GFR) on these drives a few times. I'm thinking that it's too much
hassle and I should just trash them, at least the YD-380. I have 3 1.2MB
drives that work. The 55FRs are desirable to have working since I can put
them in a Rainbow, but even at ebay prices it isn't worth more than an hour
of my time to rehab.

Before I do that I thought I'd see if there was something simple I can do.

I did all my testing with the kryoflux board on a known-good disk (720k
5.25" drive so it tests both sides at the normal density and tests all 80
tracks w/o using the high density mode so the FRs can read it).

Warner

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue May 23 19:16:41 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 20:16:41 -0400
Subject: Fixing flakey floppies
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfpDkRcrbs5pWZe=uKW9hLETBniAzRCzbX8YS_k+M1Nmww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANCZdfpDkRcrbs5pWZe=uKW9hLETBniAzRCzbX8YS_k+M1Nmww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucreMv0TVe3BnSYCNT+r8v7NynOAG9CiHyz-+9=wR5sog@mail.gmail.com>

Warner...get rid of old grease and replace if you have it, like an early
MAC Apple drive benefits from.  Might help

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On May 23, 2017 8:13 PM, "Warner Losh via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> I have three flakey floppies. I wonder if they are worth fixing. Two are
> TEAC FD-55FRs. One appears to not report the INDEX mark, the other works
> well until around track 35 or so then fails... The third floppy is a 1.2 MB
> YD-380. It won't reliably move the head...
>
> I've tried cleaning the heads (which rehabbed a forth drive: a TEAC
> FD-55GFR) on these drives a few times. I'm thinking that it's too much
> hassle and I should just trash them, at least the YD-380. I have 3 1.2MB
> drives that work. The 55FRs are desirable to have working since I can put
> them in a Rainbow, but even at ebay prices it isn't worth more than an hour
> of my time to rehab.
>
> Before I do that I thought I'd see if there was something simple I can do.
>
> I did all my testing with the kryoflux board on a known-good disk (720k
> 5.25" drive so it tests both sides at the normal density and tests all 80
> tracks w/o using the high density mode so the FRs can read it).
>
> Warner
>

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Tue May 23 19:19:03 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 17:19:03 -0700
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
Message-ID: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>

Anyone know of where these can be had now days?

thanks
jim

From imp at bsdimp.com  Tue May 23 19:30:45 2017
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 18:30:45 -0600
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfoQaddKvp_e-_EbA1gNM3XHv46wOyGiCk4hhSkRXXYBxA@mail.gmail.com>

I just bought Kryoflux last month to read some Venix disks.
https://webstore.kryoflux.com/catalog/ is a good place to start.

Once I got a working floppy, and understood the output of dtc, I've been
loving mine. I'd recommend buying a known good floppy drive of the
appropriate flavor if you don't already have one... Once I had a known good
one, I was able to rehab one of the spare ones I had... But it wasn't worth
the hassle...

Warner

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 6:19 PM, jim stephens via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Anyone know of where these can be had now days?
>
> thanks
> jim
>

From imp at bsdimp.com  Tue May 23 19:31:41 2017
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 18:31:41 -0600
Subject: Fixing flakey floppies
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBucreMv0TVe3BnSYCNT+r8v7NynOAG9CiHyz-+9=wR5sog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANCZdfpDkRcrbs5pWZe=uKW9hLETBniAzRCzbX8YS_k+M1Nmww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBucreMv0TVe3BnSYCNT+r8v7NynOAG9CiHyz-+9=wR5sog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfpazwtTpih-=3x=GWmwWNSVEEY1v6p52dXzZ9R6v825cQ@mail.gmail.com>

Old grease where? I'm not familiar with this issue...

Warner

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 6:16 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Warner...get rid of old grease and replace if you have it, like an early
> MAC Apple drive benefits from.  Might help
>
> Bill Degnan
> twitter: billdeg
> vintagecomputer.net
> On May 23, 2017 8:13 PM, "Warner Losh via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> I have three flakey floppies. I wonder if they are worth fixing. Two are
>> TEAC FD-55FRs. One appears to not report the INDEX mark, the other works
>> well until around track 35 or so then fails... The third floppy is a 1.2
>> MB
>> YD-380. It won't reliably move the head...
>>
>> I've tried cleaning the heads (which rehabbed a forth drive: a TEAC
>> FD-55GFR) on these drives a few times. I'm thinking that it's too much
>> hassle and I should just trash them, at least the YD-380. I have 3 1.2MB
>> drives that work. The 55FRs are desirable to have working since I can put
>> them in a Rainbow, but even at ebay prices it isn't worth more than an
>> hour
>> of my time to rehab.
>>
>> Before I do that I thought I'd see if there was something simple I can do.
>>
>> I did all my testing with the kryoflux board on a known-good disk (720k
>> 5.25" drive so it tests both sides at the normal density and tests all 80
>> tracks w/o using the high density mode so the FRs can read it).
>>
>> Warner
>>
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue May 23 19:40:23 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 17:40:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fixing flakey floppies
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfpDkRcrbs5pWZe=uKW9hLETBniAzRCzbX8YS_k+M1Nmww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANCZdfpDkRcrbs5pWZe=uKW9hLETBniAzRCzbX8YS_k+M1Nmww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705231721590.15121@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 23 May 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
> Greetings,
> I have three flakey floppies. I wonder if they are worth fixing. Two are
> TEAC FD-55FRs. One appears to not report the INDEX mark, the other works
> well until around track 35 or so then fails... The third floppy is a 1.2 MB
> YD-380. It won't reliably move the head...
> I've tried cleaning the heads

In addition to cleaning the heads, look at the parts that slide when the 
head moves.  The old grease is probably in bad shape by now.  With a 
little solvent (WD-40 is NOT a solvent), clean the old grease and re-lube 
them.  I used to use a molybdenum disulfide grease that I had around - I 
have no idea what the "RIGHT" grease would be.

Teac 55s don't often need the radial alignment adjusted, but it could 
happen.  The failure after track 35 could be alignment, but it could also 
be the grease.

When you say "doesn't report index", . . .
in what way?
Many Teac drives use index sensing to determine "drive ready", so there is 
a little more circuitry between the sensor and the interface connector 
than some drives.
Is it complaining about "drive ready" to the controller, . . . 
If you clip on at the index sensor, and manually turn the disk, do you get 
a response as the index hole goes by?  (or use a folded piece of business 
card to block and unblock the sensor without a disk in the drive.


> I'm thinking that it's too much hassle and I should just trash them, at 
> least the YD-380.  I have 3 1.2MB drives that work. The 55FRs are 
> desirable to have working since I can put them in a Rainbow, but even at 
> ebay prices it isn't worth more than an hour of my time to rehab.

If the problem(s) are mechanical, and you end up with another drive that 
has a bad board, or vice versa, you will be glad if you kept the dead 
drives.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Tue May 23 19:56:36 2017
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 20:56:36 -0400
Subject: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)
In-Reply-To: <201705232342.v4NNgBYr7733400@floodgap.com>
References: <0bfe01d2d3f6$658d4ba0$30a7e2e0$@verizon.net> from William
 Sudbrink via cctalk at "May 23,
 17 02:57:15 pm" <201705232342.v4NNgBYr7733400@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <0c4101d2d428$98d2fc30$ca78f490$@verizon.net>

Thanks for the reply.  I would never dream of "messing with it."  Even
reading the NEJM article, it still amazes me to think of the Mercury
"bouncing around" in her body for almost a year before she finally passed.
It also "went through" the back of her hand without making some awful
lesion.  1.3 grams?!  I've always gone with the mental crutch that a paper
clip weighs about 1/2 gram.  So almost three paper clips "slipped" into her
body.  Wow.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From brain at jbrain.com  Tue May 23 20:20:17 2017
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 20:20:17 -0500
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <00ad01d2d38a$edf17e60$c9d47b20$@outlook.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimm8+PgJ9HRB0JFnxHkQnJ7Z6D6+jsWBs_Z0nP96irNVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <028a616a-ce48-1bb5-dcdf-4fd7a26ceaa2@jbrain.com>
 <00ad01d2d38a$edf17e60$c9d47b20$@outlook.com>
Message-ID: <0186a6d5-1d27-4605-05ac-53aae05b65f3@jbrain.com>

On 5/23/2017 1:07 AM, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com wrote:
> You probably need a null modem cable.
I had one (and used it), but not all null modem cables are evidently the 
same :-)  I soldered up a loopback as you suggested, and the unit 
dropped into DATA MODE on startup.  I then played with the signals.  The 
unit really does want DCD to be active, as just doing CTS/RTS, DTR/DSR, 
and RX/TX did not do the trick.  Evidently, my null modem cable I had 
tested with previously does not connect DCD. Swapped out for a null 
modem adapter (from our old now deceased friend Radio Shack) and the 
unit works with a new Dell M4800 laptop (so "newer" style +-10V RS232 
levels must be OK.

I appreciate the brain dusting.  I should have known to try that, as I 
spent years doing serial stuff and wrote tcpser, the Hayes Modem 
emulator package for Linux/Windows.  I even have a Telnet BBS cable 
named after me.  Sigh...

The printer ribbon has less life left in it than I anticipated, but a 
list member is helping me, so it should be good to go after a deep 
cleaning and a light oiling.  I did notice the printhead starts to 
stutter at times on long lines, but I *think* it's a function of the 
damage to the ribbon, so we'll troubleshoot that only if it continues 
after ribbon fixes.

The broomhandle looks to be working fine, but if there's a spare paper 
roll pin and/or a platen knob out there looking for a home, let me know.

Jim


From brain at jbrain.com  Tue May 23 20:22:38 2017
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 20:22:38 -0500
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnDE58R_TS+7XcJ0FmV=UCbh6vbH69bgEE=09Cik0_x5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimm8+PgJ9HRB0JFnxHkQnJ7Z6D6+jsWBs_Z0nP96irNVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <028a616a-ce48-1bb5-dcdf-4fd7a26ceaa2@jbrain.com>
 <CAALmimnDE58R_TS+7XcJ0FmV=UCbh6vbH69bgEE=09Cik0_x5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6f187bca-01e6-7586-0dbf-9e02b74c62f9@jbrain.com>

On 5/23/2017 8:49 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>
> Not a positive sign.
Dodged a bullet.  Model 43 needs RTS, DTR, AND DCD to be active to drop 
into DATA MODE.  Initial null modem cable does not connect DCD to DTR.  
Small fail.  I'll have to mark that cable.

Now, to decide how best to present this unit at VCF-MW and/OR TANDY 
Assembly.

Jim

From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue May 23 20:28:48 2017
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 20:28:48 -0500
Subject: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)
In-Reply-To: <0bfe01d2d3f6$658d4ba0$30a7e2e0$@verizon.net>
References: <2762d6a3-522b-f430-8b85-894b2cdf3588@gmail.com>
 <b7e0499c-7f49-def4-c3c2-a4ad9cc94676@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023AB40A7C2FD9352A9F2CEDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <006201d2d011$19fbf5d0$4df3e170$@net>
 <BN3PR01MB13029F32CAE84D638839FC43EDE40@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAMTenCEjtrJ7KRbevpCpu4n6g1F0Jgu1thL5g5ZzPkNOK-jc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170519104523.GA10405@mooli.org.uk>
 <BN3PR01MB1302105D0EA45FBC58AC228AEDE50@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <20170519121343.GA12558@mooli.org.uk>
 <9613f719-5c66-f650-81eb-1aa2896437f1@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR01MB13023F204F1CDAEF1986C06AEDFA0@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <E1dCmC0-00005R-NS@fencepost.gnu.org>
 <BN3PR01MB13021D867E238E492E6D1675EDF80@BN3PR01MB1302.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <af2a3afc-a9af-e5de-b5f5-1453e547a558@groessler.org>
 <C0B30DD0-9677-4C48-8F11-EF1479B59709@comcast.net> <33 49DD32-E432-4189-9B98-
 A3D7808060EE@swri.edu> <0bfe01d2d3f6$658d4ba0$30a7e2e0$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <5924E1D0.4080509@pico-systems.com>

On 05/23/2017 01:57 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote:
> I have a hard time getting my head around Dr. Wetterhahn's poisoning.  How
> many molecules of the toxin could have possibly entered her body?
> How many molecules does it take to kill or fatally disable a cell?  After it
> does its damage, does the molecule become available again to do
> more damage?  How many cells in her body were actually killed?  Do the
> molecules somehow target the cells required to kill an individual?
> If you killed just the "right" cells, how many cells does it take to kill a
> person?
>
Yeah, this was sure a wake up call!  I work in a chemistry 
department, so we all have to go through a 1 hour
lab safety seminar every year.  This case has been pretty 
strongly pushed in those.  She did everything everybody 
thought was sufficient to protect her.  Apparently, nobody 
knew that methyl mercury could just soak through whatever 
gloves she was wearing so quickly.  As I understand it, she 
immediately saw the drop of stuff drip on the glove, and she 
completed what she was doing and removed the glove in much 
less than one MINUTE!

Ummm, just a couple cells might be enough to kill you, if 
they stopped your breathing or made you blood pressure go 
haywire (high or low).  But, she felt sick within minutes of 
the exposure and went steadily downhill after that.  So, she 
apparently absorbed a lot of the methyl mercury, which WAS 
known to be super-toxic and readily absorbed.

The Wikipedia article on Dr. Wetterhahn seems to indicate 
this went a lot slower than we were told in the seminar.
Not sure who to trust, there.

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue May 23 21:55:23 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 19:55:23 -0700
Subject: Fixing flakey floppies
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705231721590.15121@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CANCZdfpDkRcrbs5pWZe=uKW9hLETBniAzRCzbX8YS_k+M1Nmww@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705231721590.15121@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4e115270-a1c2-9355-bc2b-da4f295dbd92@sydex.com>

On 05/23/2017 05:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, 23 May 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:

> In addition to cleaning the heads, look at the parts that slide when the
> head moves.  The old grease is probably in bad shape by now.  With a
> little solvent (WD-40 is NOT a solvent), clean the old grease and
> re-lube them.  I used to use a molybdenum disulfide grease that I had
> around - I have no idea what the "RIGHT" grease would be.
> 
> Teac 55s don't often need the radial alignment adjusted, but it could
> happen.  The failure after track 35 could be alignment, but it could
> also be the grease.

Caked or dry grease can even occur on NOS drives.  I was unpacking some
new Samsung SFB-321 3.5" drives.   They didn't pass diagnostics.  Popped
them open and the leadscrew grease had turned yellow and caked.  Cleaned
the grease off with some Perc, put a very thin film of silicone grease
on the leadscrew and the drives were good to go.

You can see if you've got an alignment problem if you format a floppy in
the suspected drive and you can read it from end to end without error.

IMD is good for this sort of thing.

--Chuck



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue May 23 22:45:10 2017
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 23:45:10 -0400
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <0186a6d5-1d27-4605-05ac-53aae05b65f3@jbrain.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimm8+PgJ9HRB0JFnxHkQnJ7Z6D6+jsWBs_Z0nP96irNVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <028a616a-ce48-1bb5-dcdf-4fd7a26ceaa2@jbrain.com>
 <00ad01d2d38a$edf17e60$c9d47b20$@outlook.com>
 <0186a6d5-1d27-4605-05ac-53aae05b65f3@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimk9NB1ka6xMxDMs--9joPHMxXUsE2Tsne-QDRN0k73unQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 9:20 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On 5/23/2017 1:07 AM, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> You probably need a null modem cable.
>
> I had one (and used it), but not all null modem cables are evidently the
> same :-)  I soldered up a loopback as you suggested, and the unit dropped
> into DATA MODE on startup.

Superb!

> The printer ribbon has less life left in it than I anticipated, but a list
> member is helping me, so it should be good to go after a deep cleaning and a
> light oiling.

Back in the day, there was a re-inking product, the Mac Inker.  Since
those are not easy to dig up now, what options are there?  Also,
because there's often plenty of pigment, what oil/solvents are good to
wrest some of that pigment back out of a dried ribbon?

-ethan

From andrew at cerberus-software.com.au  Tue May 23 19:31:02 2017
From: andrew at cerberus-software.com.au (Andrew Harvey)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 10:31:02 +1000
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think Indivudual Computers make the catweasle any more. They never
released a 64bit Windows driver for it.

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 10:19 AM, jim stephens via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Anyone know of where these can be had now days?
>
> thanks
> jim
>

From spectre at floodgap.com  Tue May 23 23:55:33 2017
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 21:55:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)
In-Reply-To: <5924E1D0.4080509@pico-systems.com> from Jon Elson via cctalk at
 "May 23, 17 08:28:48 pm"
Message-ID: <201705240455.v4O4tXx07798992@floodgap.com>

> The Wikipedia article on Dr. Wetterhahn seems to indicate 
> this went a lot slower than we were told in the seminar.
> Not sure who to trust, there.

The NEJM article seems to say it was also not a precipitous decline.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- The cost of living has not adversely affected its popularity. --------------

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Wed May 24 00:05:44 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 22:05:44 -0700
Subject: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)
In-Reply-To: <0c4101d2d428$98d2fc30$ca78f490$@verizon.net>
References: <0bfe01d2d3f6$658d4ba0$30a7e2e0$@verizon.net>
 <201705232342.v4NNgBYr7733400@floodgap.com>
 <0c4101d2d428$98d2fc30$ca78f490$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <59afd093-e6e8-e3a3-51af-785c08ea3251@jwsss.com>



On 5/23/2017 5:56 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote:
>   Mercury
> "bouncing around" in her body for almost a year before she finally passed.
> It also "went through" the back of her hand without making some awful
> lesion.  1.3 grams?!  I've always gone with the mental crutch that a paper
> clip weighs about 1/2 gram.  So almost three paper clips "slipped" into her
> body.  Wow.
Useful to note this is not metallic mercury.  It was dimethyl mercury, 
which meant that the methyl radical tagged on the mercury was very 
friendly with the material on the gloves she wore, and with her skin and 
dragged the heavy metal rapidly to her blood stream. And eventually to 
lots of places and killed her.

Metallic mercury isn't anything you want to ingest, but it won't go thru 
your skin unless it has some other compound to drag it, or unless you 
are very unlucky and jam it into an open wound.

Thanks
Jim

From brain at jbrain.com  Wed May 24 00:14:23 2017
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 00:14:23 -0500
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimk9NB1ka6xMxDMs--9joPHMxXUsE2Tsne-QDRN0k73unQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimm8+PgJ9HRB0JFnxHkQnJ7Z6D6+jsWBs_Z0nP96irNVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <028a616a-ce48-1bb5-dcdf-4fd7a26ceaa2@jbrain.com>
 <00ad01d2d38a$edf17e60$c9d47b20$@outlook.com>
 <0186a6d5-1d27-4605-05ac-53aae05b65f3@jbrain.com>
 <CAALmimk9NB1ka6xMxDMs--9joPHMxXUsE2Tsne-QDRN0k73unQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b15304a9-ab35-60af-25e1-e5b7f8cdb65d@jbrain.com>

On 5/23/2017 10:45 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> Back in the day, there was a re-inking product, the Mac Inker.
I have a Re-inker, though not exactly like the Mac Inker, but the Model 
43 has a built in "Mac Inker"-like inking system.  It's a small loop of 
ribbon with a large felt round ink pad in the cartridge.  So, if I can 
get some ink into the felt, I should be OK.
> Since
> those are not easy to dig up now, what options are there?  Also,
> because there's often plenty of pigment, what oil/solvents are good to
> wrest some of that pigment back out of a dried ribbon?
That is a question I'd like to determine.  Google was little help 
outside of calls to try WD40.

Jim

From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Wed May 24 00:19:41 2017
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 05:19:41 +0000
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <2053417937.506011.1495566326946@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CABGJBue9w8JE5d-zX3pSNKsnFpG3c++0n44Dmv76GqQ84QTyLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170522230643.02913e9a@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <db24f1dd-8baf-348d-e9dc-576d70b5fda3@jwsss.com>,
 <2053417937.506011.1495566326946@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR0601MB1025D0542B73B15C9DAEBB87BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Hi Jim,


add me to your list.


I am in Thousand Oaks, CA (Los Angeles area).


I have a Tektronix 4051 vector graphics computer running, just BASIC games at the moment. I have  a Compaq Model 1 with the PC-IDE flash setup, running Autocad, Versacad, Dr. Halo, Turbo-C, MS-Fortran.


I am in conversation with some Tek guys to add a modern RAM flash drive to the 4051 to replace the DC300 tape.  We are about to build some PCBs for it, let me know if you have a 4051.


Randy


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of steven stengel via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:05 PM
To: jim stephens; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Directory of old computer collectors

I will post anything you want me to, just tell me.
email is not necessary, a link or website will do fine as well.The map is intended to be a method to see who's where for assistance, trading, meet-ups, etc.There's hundreds of people here, but few know where each other live, I suppose.



      From: jim stephens via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
 Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:09 AM
 Subject: Re: Directory of old computer collectors



On 5/22/2017 11:06 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:29:22 -0400
> william degnan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> can you send a link to the people who are on the list so they can see
>> their listing?  I personally don't mind as long as any record that
>> includes me personally does not include my email address or phone
>> number.    I much prefer to send people to my web page contact form.
> Folks who are on the list should have the opportunity to approve what
> will and will not be posted about them. That's not only a legal
> requirement in many States, but also common courtesy.
>
> Regards,
> Lyle
You do get that this isn't cctalk, but one that people had already sent
contact info for.  I sent him revised publishable contact info for the
list.  I realize he probably made the request w/o 40 pages of consent
forms to read, but he seems to just be asking to allow him to publish
from that list, and a note here for anyone who didn't see it in their
email, since the respondents came from here.

thanks
jim

>> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:19 PM, steven stengel via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> In the past, I requested the email address and home city of old
>>> computer collectors to a compile a list for my own purposes.
>>> Over 120 people had responded, which is great! Now I want to make
>>> this list PUBLIC with a Google map showing everyones location,
>>> email, and collecting preferences.
>>> Since I don't have anyone's explicit permission to publish their
>>> information, I am now asking.
>>> Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on
>>> the public webpage.
>>> Thanks-
>>> Steven Stengelhttp://oldcomputers.net/
>>>
>>>
>
>





From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May 24 01:30:02 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 23:30:02 -0700
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <69af3405-3e49-fb3d-b4ae-1356d92ffd10@sydex.com>

On 05/23/2017 05:31 PM, Andrew Harvey via cctalk wrote:
> I don't think Indivudual Computers make the catweasle any more. They never
> released a 64bit Windows driver for it.

In point of advancing technology, one can purchase a STM32F4 development
board with USB, UART, microSD, battery-backed RTC and oodles of timers
and I/Os as well as a TFT interface for less than $12 shipped.  Almost
all I/Os are 5V tolerant--and can be configured as open-drain if
desired.  192KB of fast SRAM and a CPU running at about 168MHz.
Perfectly capable of doing sampling of floppy output.

Why would anyone want a Catweasel at this stage?  Technology has moved
past that.

--Chuck




From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May 24 01:30:35 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 23:30:35 -0700
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>

On 05/23/2017 05:31 PM, Andrew Harvey via cctalk wrote:
> I don't think Indivudual Computers make the catweasle any more. They never
> released a 64bit Windows driver for it.

In point of advancing technology, one can purchase a STM32F4 development
board with USB, UART, microSD, battery-backed RTC and oodles of timers
and I/Os as well as a TFT interface for less than $12 shipped.  Almost
all I/Os are 5V tolerant--and can be configured as open-drain if
desired.  192KB of fast SRAM and a CPU running at about 168MHz.
Perfectly capable of doing sampling of floppy output.

Why would anyone want a Catweasel at this stage?  Technology has moved
past that.

--Chuck




From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed May 24 01:37:55 2017
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 07:37:55 +0100
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <b15304a9-ab35-60af-25e1-e5b7f8cdb65d@jbrain.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimm8+PgJ9HRB0JFnxHkQnJ7Z6D6+jsWBs_Z0nP96irNVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <028a616a-ce48-1bb5-dcdf-4fd7a26ceaa2@jbrain.com>
 <00ad01d2d38a$edf17e60$c9d47b20$@outlook.com>
 <0186a6d5-1d27-4605-05ac-53aae05b65f3@jbrain.com>
 <CAALmimk9NB1ka6xMxDMs--9joPHMxXUsE2Tsne-QDRN0k73unQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b15304a9-ab35-60af-25e1-e5b7f8cdb65d@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <004f01d2d458$47c79b40$d756d1c0$@outlook.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Brain
> via cctalk
> Sent: 24 May 2017 06:14
> To: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and
> Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Teletype 43
> 
> On 5/23/2017 10:45 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> > Back in the day, there was a re-inking product, the Mac Inker.
> I have a Re-inker, though not exactly like the Mac Inker, but the Model
> 43 has a built in "Mac Inker"-like inking system.  It's a small loop of ribbon
> with a large felt round ink pad in the cartridge.  So, if I can get some ink into
> the felt, I should be OK.
> > Since
> > those are not easy to dig up now, what options are there?  Also,
> > because there's often plenty of pigment, what oil/solvents are good to
> > wrest some of that pigment back out of a dried ribbon?
> That is a question I'd like to determine.  Google was little help outside of calls
> to try WD40.
> 
> Jim

Some have used stamp pad ink. Some stamp pad ink doesn't dry out..

Dave


From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Wed May 24 01:46:57 2017
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 06:46:57 +0000
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <70c4bded-145d-bc0e-a493-f9c770e36e9e@jwsss.com>
References: <BN3PR0601MB1025D0542B73B15C9DAEBB87BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>,
 <70c4bded-145d-bc0e-a493-f9c770e36e9e@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR0601MB102586522714DBDD9E793021BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Hi Jim,


Anybody that is paranoid about telling their location and the computer dinosaurs running in their basement needs a head alignment.


Another case of some guy over-estimating the worth of the junk we hold on to.  It is zero, of value to only us that play with it.


And our numbers are diminishing every day.


Randy






________________________________
From: jim stephens <jwsmail at jwsss.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 11:26 PM
To: Randy Dawson; steven stengel
Subject: Fwd: Re: Directory of old computer collectors


Randy,
I'm sort of running interference for STeve on the list.  Since his email is cc'd here and he's a subscriber I suspect has seen this.

the tosteve at yahoo.com<mailto:tosteve at yahoo.com> is his email for these computer matters.

People are getting a bit torqued out over non issues, I think, thanks for chiming in.  Hopefully we can all help each others collecting efforts with a bit of visibility.

thanks
jim


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject:        Re: Directory of old computer collectors
Date:   Wed, 24 May 2017 05:19:41 +0000
From:   Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com><mailto:rdawson16 at hotmail.com>
To:     jim stephens <jwsmail at jwsss.com><mailto:jwsmail at jwsss.com>, steven stengel <tosteve at yahoo.com><mailto:tosteve at yahoo.com>, General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org><mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>



Hi Jim,


add me to your list.


I am in Thousand Oaks, CA (Los Angeles area).


I have a Tektronix 4051 vector graphics computer running, just BASIC games at the moment. I have  a Compaq Model 1 with the PC-IDE flash setup, running Autocad, Versacad, Dr. Halo, Turbo-C, MS-Fortran.


I am in conversation with some Tek guys to add a modern RAM flash drive to the 4051 to replace the DC300 tape.  We are about to build some PCBs for it, let me know if you have a 4051.


Randy


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org><mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of steven stengel via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org><mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:05 PM
To: jim stephens; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Directory of old computer collectors

I will post anything you want me to, just tell me.
email is not necessary, a link or website will do fine as well.The map is intended to be a method to see who's where for assistance, trading, meet-ups, etc.There's hundreds of people here, but few know where each other live, I suppose.



      From: jim stephens via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org><mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
 Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:09 AM
 Subject: Re: Directory of old computer collectors



On 5/22/2017 11:06 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:29:22 -0400
> william degnan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org><mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> can you send a link to the people who are on the list so they can see
>> their listing?  I personally don't mind as long as any record that
>> includes me personally does not include my email address or phone
>> number.    I much prefer to send people to my web page contact form.
> Folks who are on the list should have the opportunity to approve what
> will and will not be posted about them. That's not only a legal
> requirement in many States, but also common courtesy.
>
> Regards,
> Lyle
You do get that this isn't cctalk, but one that people had already sent
contact info for.  I sent him revised publishable contact info for the
list.  I realize he probably made the request w/o 40 pages of consent
forms to read, but he seems to just be asking to allow him to publish
from that list, and a note here for anyone who didn't see it in their
email, since the respondents came from here.

thanks
jim

>> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:19 PM, steven stengel via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> In the past, I requested the email address and home city of old
>>> computer collectors to a compile a list for my own purposes.
>>> Over 120 people had responded, which is great! Now I want to make
>>> this list PUBLIC with a Google map showing everyones location,
>>> email, and collecting preferences.
>>> Since I don't have anyone's explicit permission to publish their
>>> information, I am now asking.
>>> Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on
>>> the public webpage.
>>> Thanks-
>>> Steven Stengelhttp://oldcomputers.net/
>>>
>>>
>
>





From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Wed May 24 01:51:48 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 23:51:48 -0700
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <004f01d2d458$47c79b40$d756d1c0$@outlook.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimm8+PgJ9HRB0JFnxHkQnJ7Z6D6+jsWBs_Z0nP96irNVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <028a616a-ce48-1bb5-dcdf-4fd7a26ceaa2@jbrain.com>
 <00ad01d2d38a$edf17e60$c9d47b20$@outlook.com>
 <0186a6d5-1d27-4605-05ac-53aae05b65f3@jbrain.com>
 <CAALmimk9NB1ka6xMxDMs--9joPHMxXUsE2Tsne-QDRN0k73unQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b15304a9-ab35-60af-25e1-e5b7f8cdb65d@jbrain.com>
 <004f01d2d458$47c79b40$d756d1c0$@outlook.com>
Message-ID: <ed1bc761-d739-0554-8139-1fef50e9db6d@jwsss.com>



On 5/23/2017 11:37 PM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote:
>> Since
>> those are not easy to dig up now, what options are there?  Also,
>> because there's often plenty of pigment, what oil/solvents are good to
>> wrest some of that pigment back out of a dried ribbon?
> That is a question I'd like to determine.  Google was little help outside of calls
> to try WD40.
We WD40'ed ASR33 ribbons at the Computer Mini lab @UMR till the material 
was white and we were printing with residual WD40 on the fabric.  On a 
rebuild of the machine in question, we drained off 1/2 pint of oil from 
the felt in the bottom, from both the ink operation, and just making it go.

Not sure why they didn't buy a new ribbon, but once it was rebuilt after 
4 years of use, it printed fantastic quality print with a new ribbon.

I don't know the formulas for ink but it was persuaded to continue 
printing with cloth / silk ribbons I've seen then and since.

thanks
Jim

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed May 24 02:58:34 2017
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 08:58:34 +0100
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR0601MB102586522714DBDD9E793021BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BN3PR0601MB1025D0542B73B15C9DAEBB87BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>,
 <70c4bded-145d-bc0e-a493-f9c770e36e9e@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR0601MB102586522714DBDD9E793021BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <00b301d2d463$8b5bdd70$a2139850$@ntlworld.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Randy
> Dawson via cctalk
> Sent: 24 May 2017 07:47
> To: jim stephens <jwsmail at jwsss.com>; steven stengel <tosteve at yahoo.com>;
> General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Re: Directory of old computer collectors
> 
> Hi Jim,
> 
> 
> Anybody that is paranoid about telling their location and the computer
> dinosaurs running in their basement needs a head alignment.
> 


It seems that you are suggesting people are worried about their collections
being attractive to thieves. Well, that may be true for the lucky few, but
for me it is simply about coordinates for identity theft and other kinds of
criminality.

Regards

Rob



From classiccmp at crash.com  Wed May 24 03:24:37 2017
From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 01:24:37 -0700
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>

>> Link to some photos I took:
>> https://www.flickr.com/...
> 
> The link is 404 for me.
> will look for the other post.


Sigh. Looks like default permissions weren't "public", but Flickr/Yahoo
is also suggesting this heretofore alien URL format:

    https://www.flickr.com/gp/smj_crash/4bgzj2


Seems to work, though it looks like it's just a redirect to a more
common format...

YMMV,
--S.


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Wed May 24 03:25:17 2017
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 10:25:17 +0200
Subject: Run/Stop switch from a Soviet S/370 clone
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFrNQNfOyQ3B+jz+MM4W0=3Exd6Mcm_FoOLXgBAfevo2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCFrNQNfOyQ3B+jz+MM4W0=3Exd6Mcm_FoOLXgBAfevo2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170524082516.GS20746@Update.UU.SE>

I think so. It would at least be nice to see a picture.

If it's smallish I might even pay postage for it :D

/P

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 04:50:42PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> My flatmate has one of these. Just the small subassembly with the 2
> push-buttons and a red light between them. Is this something that
> would be of interest to anyone? I'm trying to persuade him to eBay it
> instead of throwing it away.
> 
> We've also got the plastic covers from a few disk packs, an empty
> metal chassis and a few other odds and sods. Sadly most of the machine
> was binned long long ago. :-(
> 
> -- 
> Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
> Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
> UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Wed May 24 04:16:08 2017
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 11:16:08 +0200
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>
 <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>
Message-ID: <20170524091607.GT20746@Update.UU.SE>

I'm surprised to see a swedish keyboard there :)

What is a PCM-12 ?

And I think that Datability VCP-1000 can do LAT to TCP/IP  translation.

/P

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 01:24:37AM -0700, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote:
> >> Link to some photos I took:
> >> https://www.flickr.com/...
> > 
> > The link is 404 for me.
> > will look for the other post.
> 
> 
> Sigh. Looks like default permissions weren't "public", but Flickr/Yahoo
> is also suggesting this heretofore alien URL format:
> 
>     https://www.flickr.com/gp/smj_crash/4bgzj2
> 
> 
> Seems to work, though it looks like it's just a redirect to a more
> common format...
> 
> YMMV,
> --S.
> 

From hachti at hachti.de  Wed May 24 05:45:11 2017
From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 12:45:11 +0200
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimm8+PgJ9HRB0JFnxHkQnJ7Z6D6+jsWBs_Z0nP96irNVXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimm8+PgJ9HRB0JFnxHkQnJ7Z6D6+jsWBs_Z0nP96irNVXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <de4a8391-c56a-c130-093c-af733915705c@hachti.de>



On 23.05.2017 03:41, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> 
> No eye-rolling here.  Nice find!
Here the same. Perhaps not the most wanted device - but... better have 
than need...

>>> I got home last night, and the unit fires up and works (well, in local mode.  Docs claim
>>> it is rs232 out the back, but could not coax anything from my PC to it yet),
> 
> Do you have a "traffic light"?  I find them invaluable for diagnosing
> handshaking and TxD/RxD swaps.
The first thing I thought of. Everybody needs one. And 25/9-Adapters in 
both directions, null modem cables and gender changers - then you get 
everything running. Ok, add some sub d connectors to make weirdly wired 
adapters if nothing helps.

>> Does your PC have real RS232?  A lot of "RS232" ports are serial ports, but not with correct
>> RS232 levels.  If you have "TTL RS232" [sic] it won't work with an actual RS232 port.
I don't think that it's reasonable to check this problem first. Of 
course, can happen. But more likely you have a null modem problem.

Keep in mind that "TXD" is the output of a DTE (Data Terminal 
Equipment). TXD is therefore the input (!) of a DCE (Data Communication 
Equipment aka modem).
PC RS-232 ports send on TXD because they consider themselves to be a 
terminal. And a teletype IS actually a terminal. So you would need to at 
least cross wires 2 and 3 (RXD/TXD) using a Null modem. If you want 
hardware handshake, the same applies to DTR and CTS.

Good luck :-)

From hachti at hachti.de  Wed May 24 05:47:13 2017
From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 12:47:13 +0200
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <028a616a-ce48-1bb5-dcdf-4fd7a26ceaa2@jbrain.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimm8+PgJ9HRB0JFnxHkQnJ7Z6D6+jsWBs_Z0nP96irNVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <028a616a-ce48-1bb5-dcdf-4fd7a26ceaa2@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <7988299e-fbc0-f0bc-d36b-04e68fbec4e6@hachti.de>



On 23.05.2017 06:57, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
>> Do you have a "traffic light"?  I find them invaluable for diagnosing
>> handshaking and TxD/RxD swaps.
> Yep.  constant low on TX.
Oh, I wrote my message before reading on in the thread... Sorry.
Good that you have one!



From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed May 24 06:38:34 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 07:38:34 -0400
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR0601MB1025D0542B73B15C9DAEBB87BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2031911871.3217329.1495484375175@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CABGJBue9w8JE5d-zX3pSNKsnFpG3c++0n44Dmv76GqQ84QTyLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170522230643.02913e9a@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <db24f1dd-8baf-348d-e9dc-576d70b5fda3@jwsss.com>
 <2053417937.506011.1495566326946@mail.yahoo.com>
 <BN3PR0601MB1025D0542B73B15C9DAEBB87BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudGsDEyr8jnjUPKBhxw6oobh8Rr+hsraq8618+dHGK7+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Can you please send out the url of this list, and on the list a reliable
way to contact the list maintainer?

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On May 24, 2017 1:19 AM, "Randy Dawson via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Hi Jim,
>
>
> add me to your list.
>
>
> I am in Thousand Oaks, CA (Los Angeles area).
>
>
> I have a Tektronix 4051 vector graphics computer running, just BASIC games
> at the moment. I have  a Compaq Model 1 with the PC-IDE flash setup,
> running Autocad, Versacad, Dr. Halo, Turbo-C, MS-Fortran.
>
>
> I am in conversation with some Tek guys to add a modern RAM flash drive to
> the 4051 to replace the DC300 tape.  We are about to build some PCBs for
> it, let me know if you have a 4051.
>
>
> Randy
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of steven stengel
> via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:05 PM
> To: jim stephens; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Directory of old computer collectors
>
> I will post anything you want me to, just tell me.
> email is not necessary, a link or website will do fine as well.The map is
> intended to be a method to see who's where for assistance, trading,
> meet-ups, etc.There's hundreds of people here, but few know where each
> other live, I suppose.
>
>
>
>       From: jim stephens via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>  To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>  Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:09 AM
>  Subject: Re: Directory of old computer collectors
>
>
>
> On 5/22/2017 11:06 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote:
> > On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:29:22 -0400
> > william degnan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >> can you send a link to the people who are on the list so they can see
> >> their listing?  I personally don't mind as long as any record that
> >> includes me personally does not include my email address or phone
> >> number.    I much prefer to send people to my web page contact form.
> > Folks who are on the list should have the opportunity to approve what
> > will and will not be posted about them. That's not only a legal
> > requirement in many States, but also common courtesy.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Lyle
> You do get that this isn't cctalk, but one that people had already sent
> contact info for.  I sent him revised publishable contact info for the
> list.  I realize he probably made the request w/o 40 pages of consent
> forms to read, but he seems to just be asking to allow him to publish
> from that list, and a note here for anyone who didn't see it in their
> email, since the respondents came from here.
>
> thanks
> jim
>
> >> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:19 PM, steven stengel via cctalk <
> >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>> In the past, I requested the email address and home city of old
> >>> computer collectors to a compile a list for my own purposes.
> >>> Over 120 people had responded, which is great! Now I want to make
> >>> this list PUBLIC with a Google map showing everyones location,
> >>> email, and collecting preferences.
> >>> Since I don't have anyone's explicit permission to publish their
> >>> information, I am now asking.
> >>> Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on
> >>> the public webpage.
> >>> Thanks-
> >>> Steven Stengelhttp://oldcomputers.net/
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed May 24 07:26:03 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 08:26:03 -0400
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <0186a6d5-1d27-4605-05ac-53aae05b65f3@jbrain.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimm8+PgJ9HRB0JFnxHkQnJ7Z6D6+jsWBs_Z0nP96irNVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <028a616a-ce48-1bb5-dcdf-4fd7a26ceaa2@jbrain.com>
 <00ad01d2d38a$edf17e60$c9d47b20$@outlook.com>
 <0186a6d5-1d27-4605-05ac-53aae05b65f3@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <E59D2D8F-C5F4-446B-96CB-6EE6381AE433@comcast.net>


> On May 23, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 5/23/2017 1:07 AM, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com wrote:
>> You probably need a null modem cable.
> I had one (and used it), but not all null modem cables are evidently the same :-)  I soldered up a loopback as you suggested, and the unit dropped into DATA MODE on startup.  I then played with the signals.  The unit really does want DCD to be active, as just doing CTS/RTS, DTR/DSR, and RX/TX did not do the trick.  Evidently, my null modem cable I had tested with previously does not connect DCD. Swapped out for a null modem adapter (from our old now deceased friend Radio Shack) and the unit works with a new Dell M4800 laptop (so "newer" style +-10V RS232 levels must be OK.

Great to hear of the progress.

From what I remember and from what the Wikipedia article mentions, +- 10 volt is certainly fine and RS232-compliant.  I remember PCs that used TTL levels (0 and +5 or so) which clearly is not valid (not to mention that TTL level ICs are likely to fry when confronted with valid RS232 inputs such as -15 volts).

Your null modem experience makes sense.  There are a bunch of different signals whose meaning is often not clear, and older equipment is more likely to want all of them.  CTS is the main one, but while you might argue that DCD (carrier detect) shouldn't be required, it isn't too surprising that a terminal might look for it.

	paul



From lproven at gmail.com  Wed May 24 08:12:05 2017
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 15:12:05 +0200
Subject: Run/Stop switch from a Soviet S/370 clone
In-Reply-To: <20170524082516.GS20746@Update.UU.SE>
References: <CAMTenCFrNQNfOyQ3B+jz+MM4W0=3Exd6Mcm_FoOLXgBAfevo2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170524082516.GS20746@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHk0c2O_O2+LafHkXKoGLGftfA8+MS=yPtG_zks15G8gQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 May 2017 at 10:25, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> I think so. It would at least be nice to see a picture.
>
> If it's smallish I might even pay postage for it :D

Working on it. My flatmate's mother tidied it away and we thought it
had been thrown out, but I have rediscovered it in its hiding place.

His father thinks it is from one of these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES_EVM

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

From tingox at gmail.com  Wed May 24 03:59:36 2017
From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 10:59:36 +0200
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <69af3405-3e49-fb3d-b4ae-1356d92ffd10@sydex.com>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <69af3405-3e49-fb3d-b4ae-1356d92ffd10@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ_iqtZmZ96udNoaDjvb4gAHVTdbutg25g9vjCZRKgddMGqKPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 8:30 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> In point of advancing technology, one can purchase a STM32F4 development
> board with USB, UART, microSD, battery-backed RTC and oodles of timers
> and I/Os as well as a TFT interface for less than $12 shipped.  Almost
> all I/Os are 5V tolerant--and can be configured as open-drain if
> desired.  192KB of fast SRAM and a CPU running at about 168MHz.
> Perfectly capable of doing sampling of floppy output.

Some of us just want a working solution. So, any links for hardware,
software and an assembly description?

A Kryoflux would work, but since the software they provide isn't open
source, I can't compile it to work on the platform I use.
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Wed May 24 05:09:08 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 06:09:08 -0400
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <00b301d2d463$8b5bdd70$a2139850$@ntlworld.com>
References: <BN3PR0601MB1025D0542B73B15C9DAEBB87BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <70c4bded-145d-bc0e-a493-f9c770e36e9e@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR0601MB102586522714DBDD9E793021BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <00b301d2d463$8b5bdd70$a2139850$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <37addd43-2e5b-688d-7001-6f97b9932711@gmail.com>

On 05/24/2017 03:58 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Randy
>> Dawson via cctalk
>> Sent: 24 May 2017 07:47
>> To: jim stephens <jwsmail at jwsss.com>; steven stengel <tosteve at yahoo.com>;
>> General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Re: Re: Directory of old computer collectors
>>
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>>
>> Anybody that is paranoid about telling their location and the computer
>> dinosaurs running in their basement needs a head alignment.
>>
>
> It seems that you are suggesting people are worried about their collections
> being attractive to thieves. Well, that may be true for the lucky few, but
> for me it is simply about coordinates for identity theft and other kinds of
> criminality.
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
>
Rob hit the nail.

I think the collection has limited value at best and likely only a few
select pieces.

However,  To make the point to someone I showed them what they put on
the net and then
compiled it into a picture of who, what, and even when.  They
immediately stopped posting
all their daily activities and much of the personal stuff.

In my case if you can't figure out where I am from a ham call your
beyond hope
and unlikely to be a risk.

Allison




From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com  Wed May 24 08:23:19 2017
From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 08:23:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR0601MB102586522714DBDD9E793021BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BN3PR0601MB1025D0542B73B15C9DAEBB87BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>,
 <70c4bded-145d-bc0e-a493-f9c770e36e9e@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR0601MB102586522714DBDD9E793021BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1705240820460.12242@pinhead.binfone.com>



On Wed, 24 May 2017, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> Anybody that is paranoid about telling their location and the computer dinosaurs running in their basement needs a head alignment.
>
> Another case of some guy over-estimating the worth of the junk we hold on to.  It is zero, of value to only us that play with it.
>
> And our numbers are diminishing every day.

Randy, with all due respect, have you seen how much an Apple 1 or a 
Lisa... or even their _drives_ go for lately? Symbolics machines? Crays? 
One-offs or limited-run machines?

While I don't disagree that a lot of us (without question myself included) 
vastly overrate their collection of bits and pieces, that is not to say 
that _some_ of them can be worth staggering amounts of money to the right 
people.

And people have broken into places for dollars worth of easily portable 
things - let alone tens of thousands+ worth.

Caution is not undue or unwise.

  - JP

> ________________________________
> From: jim stephens <jwsmail at jwsss.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 11:26 PM
> To: Randy Dawson; steven stengel
> Subject: Fwd: Re: Directory of old computer collectors
>
>
> Randy,
> I'm sort of running interference for STeve on the list.  Since his email is cc'd here and he's a subscriber I suspect has seen this.
>
> the tosteve at yahoo.com<mailto:tosteve at yahoo.com> is his email for these computer matters.
>
> People are getting a bit torqued out over non issues, I think, thanks for chiming in.  Hopefully we can all help each others collecting efforts with a bit of visibility.
>
> thanks
> jim
>
>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject:        Re: Directory of old computer collectors
> Date:   Wed, 24 May 2017 05:19:41 +0000
> From:   Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com><mailto:rdawson16 at hotmail.com>
> To:     jim stephens <jwsmail at jwsss.com><mailto:jwsmail at jwsss.com>, steven stengel <tosteve at yahoo.com><mailto:tosteve at yahoo.com>, General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org><mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
>
> add me to your list.
>
>
> I am in Thousand Oaks, CA (Los Angeles area).
>
>
> I have a Tektronix 4051 vector graphics computer running, just BASIC games at the moment. I have  a Compaq Model 1 with the PC-IDE flash setup, running Autocad, Versacad, Dr. Halo, Turbo-C, MS-Fortran.
>
>
> I am in conversation with some Tek guys to add a modern RAM flash drive to the 4051 to replace the DC300 tape.  We are about to build some PCBs for it, let me know if you have a 4051.
>
>
> Randy
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org><mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of steven stengel via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org><mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:05 PM
> To: jim stephens; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Directory of old computer collectors
>
> I will post anything you want me to, just tell me.
> email is not necessary, a link or website will do fine as well.The map is intended to be a method to see who's where for assistance, trading, meet-ups, etc.There's hundreds of people here, but few know where each other live, I suppose.
>
>
>
>      From: jim stephens via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org><mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:09 AM
> Subject: Re: Directory of old computer collectors
>
>
>
> On 5/22/2017 11:06 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:29:22 -0400
>> william degnan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org><mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> can you send a link to the people who are on the list so they can see
>>> their listing?  I personally don't mind as long as any record that
>>> includes me personally does not include my email address or phone
>>> number.    I much prefer to send people to my web page contact form.
>> Folks who are on the list should have the opportunity to approve what
>> will and will not be posted about them. That's not only a legal
>> requirement in many States, but also common courtesy.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Lyle
> You do get that this isn't cctalk, but one that people had already sent
> contact info for.  I sent him revised publishable contact info for the
> list.  I realize he probably made the request w/o 40 pages of consent
> forms to read, but he seems to just be asking to allow him to publish
> from that list, and a note here for anyone who didn't see it in their
> email, since the respondents came from here.
>
> thanks
> jim
>
>>> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:19 PM, steven stengel via cctalk <
>>> cctalk at classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> In the past, I requested the email address and home city of old
>>>> computer collectors to a compile a list for my own purposes.
>>>> Over 120 people had responded, which is great! Now I want to make
>>>> this list PUBLIC with a Google map showing everyones location,
>>>> email, and collecting preferences.
>>>> Since I don't have anyone's explicit permission to publish their
>>>> information, I am now asking.
>>>> Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on
>>>> the public webpage.
>>>> Thanks-
>>>> Steven Stengelhttp://oldcomputers.net/
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>

From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed May 24 08:34:42 2017
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 06:34:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)
In-Reply-To: <59afd093-e6e8-e3a3-51af-785c08ea3251@jwsss.com> from jim
 stephens via cctalk at "May 23, 17 10:05:44 pm"
Message-ID: <201705241334.v4ODYggl12583004@floodgap.com>

> Metallic mercury isn't anything you want to ingest, but it won't go thru 
> your skin unless it has some other compound to drag it,

This isn't quite true. Elemental liquid mercury will pass through skin but
at a much slower rate. Vapourized elemental mercury via inhalation is, uh,
more "efficient."

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- MOVIE IDEA: The Never-Ending E-mail Signature ------------------------------

From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed May 24 08:37:59 2017
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 06:37:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1705240820460.12242@pinhead.binfone.com> from JP
 Hindin via cctalk at "May 24, 17 08:23:19 am"
Message-ID: <201705241337.v4ODbxFB12714230@floodgap.com>

> > Anybody that is paranoid about telling their location and the computer
> > dinosaurs running in their basement needs a head alignment.
> 
> Randy, with all due respect, have you seen how much an Apple 1 or a 
> Lisa... or even their _drives_ go for lately? Symbolics machines? Crays? 
> One-offs or limited-run machines?
> 
> While I don't disagree that a lot of us (without question myself included) 
> vastly overrate their collection of bits and pieces, that is not to say 
> that _some_ of them can be worth staggering amounts of money to the right 
> people.

And let's not forget that crooks can overestimate how much they can fence
an item for, too. They may be wrong, but you're still out the unit plus any
damage they caused.

eBay's been great for thieves as well.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- If two wrongs don't make a right, try three. -- Laurence J. Peter ----------

From imp at bsdimp.com  Wed May 24 08:57:45 2017
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 07:57:45 -0600
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <CAJ_iqtZmZ96udNoaDjvb4gAHVTdbutg25g9vjCZRKgddMGqKPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <69af3405-3e49-fb3d-b4ae-1356d92ffd10@sydex.com>
 <CAJ_iqtZmZ96udNoaDjvb4gAHVTdbutg25g9vjCZRKgddMGqKPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfoHQ5mf4THre-X8nhsVALXDyFKB4Wbhd_ZbK43dxxmVww@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 2:59 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctech <
cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 8:30 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > In point of advancing technology, one can purchase a STM32F4 development
> > board with USB, UART, microSD, battery-backed RTC and oodles of timers
> > and I/Os as well as a TFT interface for less than $12 shipped.  Almost
> > all I/Os are 5V tolerant--and can be configured as open-drain if
> > desired.  192KB of fast SRAM and a CPU running at about 168MHz.
> > Perfectly capable of doing sampling of floppy output.
>
> Some of us just want a working solution. So, any links for hardware,
> software and an assembly description?
>
> A Kryoflux would work, but since the software they provide isn't open
> source, I can't compile it to work on the platform I use.
>

I looked at snagging the protocol used for their dtc program. It doesn't
look hard...

But I have a mac, so I don't need worry, and it is a super easy solution to
archive disks. I doubt I could do better with dd given the variety of
diskettes I have.

Warner

From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com  Wed May 24 10:26:08 2017
From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 09:26:08 -0600
Subject: Teletype 43
In-Reply-To: <0186a6d5-1d27-4605-05ac-53aae05b65f3@jbrain.com>
References: <6b66047e-ac3f-a590-c0ab-8f53a4f96eaa@jbrain.com>
 <78CF1769-8A3A-4910-BA09-AFEF386D554A@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimm8+PgJ9HRB0JFnxHkQnJ7Z6D6+jsWBs_Z0nP96irNVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <028a616a-ce48-1bb5-dcdf-4fd7a26ceaa2@jbrain.com>
 <00ad01d2d38a$edf17e60$c9d47b20$@outlook.com>
 <0186a6d5-1d27-4605-05ac-53aae05b65f3@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <CAM_jmsmD6_YfaZLsFNuP-BFZ7YzoZdUEgp3Yz+rgqQGqZVpE1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 7:20 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

> On 5/23/2017 1:07 AM, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com wrote:
>
>> You probably need a null modem cable.
>>
> I had one (and used it), but not all null modem cables are evidently the
> same :-)  I soldered up a loopback as you suggested, and the unit dropped
> into DATA MODE on startup.  I then played with the signals.  The unit
> really does want DCD to be active, as just doing CTS/RTS, DTR/DSR, and
> RX/TX did not do the trick.  Evidently, my null modem cable I had tested
> with previously does not connect DCD. Swapped out for a null modem adapter
> (from our old now deceased friend Radio Shack) and the unit works with a
> new Dell M4800 laptop (so "newer" style +-10V RS232 levels must be OK.
>

The minimum legit voltage swing for RS-232 is supposed to be plus and minus
5 volts and the
maximum allowed voltage swing is plus and minus 25 volts.  The problems
occur when gear didn't
bother to do the negative swing to minus 5 volts.  Plus and Minus 10 volts
is more than adequate.


The printer ribbon has less life left in it than I anticipated, but a list
> member is helping me, so it should be good to go after a deep cleaning and
> a light oiling.  I did notice the printhead starts to stutter at times on
> long lines, but I *think* it's a function of the damage to the ribbon, so
> we'll troubleshoot that only if it continues after ribbon fixes.
>

The ribbon on my 43 is a reinking type.  The ribbon loop is maybe 18
inches?  I have a new in bag
ribbon which I am sure is also dried out.  I used a drop of thin oil on the
reinking roller the last time
I messed with it and that seemed to work.  You probably want to use
something that will lubricate
because the pins on the dot matrix print heads do need that to keep them
from rusting and wearing
out.

The "stutter" you mention is normal.  The printer electronics buffers a few
characters during the slow
carriage return and prints slightly faster than 30cps so when a new line is
started it goes at full speed
until the buffer is empty at which point it goes into the stutter mode.
This eliminated the need to send
nulls after a carriage return that was necessary on the earlier purely
mechanical printers.

-- 
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May 24 10:28:42 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 08:28:42 -0700
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <CAJ_iqtZmZ96udNoaDjvb4gAHVTdbutg25g9vjCZRKgddMGqKPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <69af3405-3e49-fb3d-b4ae-1356d92ffd10@sydex.com>
 <CAJ_iqtZmZ96udNoaDjvb4gAHVTdbutg25g9vjCZRKgddMGqKPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44d3f3b7-8f89-ce6f-8f07-acd0f4c548d1@sydex.com>

On 05/24/2017 01:59 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 8:30 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Some of us just want a working solution. So, any links for hardware,
> software and an assembly description?

Mine are for specific-purpose applications, so they're not likely to be
of use to anyone else.  Note that I'm not interested in archiving disks,
but rather getting at their content and saving that.

But golly, it isn't that difficult--most MCUs have several timers, and a
"capture" facility so reading should be easy.  Writing is again, mostly
feeding a PWM output to the drive.  The floppy interface itself is very
much brain-dead.

This isn't news--the HxC emulator basically does the work and runs on an
STM32F1 platform--which is weak tea compared to the ARM CPUs currently
available.

My .02 cents.
Chuck


From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed May 24 10:51:13 2017
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 10:51:13 -0500
Subject: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)
In-Reply-To: <201705240455.v4O4tXx07798992@floodgap.com>
References: <201705240455.v4O4tXx07798992@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <5925ABF1.2080807@pico-systems.com>

On 05/23/2017 11:55 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote:
>> The Wikipedia article on Dr. Wetterhahn seems to indicate
>> this went a lot slower than we were told in the seminar.
>> Not sure who to trust, there.
> The NEJM article seems to say it was also not a precipitous decline.
>
OK, then I guess the people who gave our seminar either 
misremembered the situation or embellished it.
Still, pretty horrific situation when a highly skilled 
person thinks they are doing everything right, and a couple 
drops of something kills them.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed May 24 10:57:00 2017
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 10:57:00 -0500
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>
 <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>
Message-ID: <5925AD4C.3010505@pico-systems.com>

On 05/24/2017 03:24 AM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote:
>>> Link to some photos I took:
>>> https://www.flickr.com/...
>> The link is 404 for me.
>> will look for the other post.
>
> Sigh. Looks like default permissions weren't "public", but Flickr/Yahoo
> is also suggesting this heretofore alien URL format:
>
>      https://www.flickr.com/gp/smj_crash/4bgzj2
>
>
Auugh!  My wife would kill me if she knew I was looking at 
PORN on my computer!

Jon


From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Wed May 24 11:09:41 2017
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 18:09:41 +0200
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <20170524091607.GT20746@Update.UU.SE>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>
 <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>
 <20170524091607.GT20746@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <1495642181.29823.21.camel@agj.net>

ons 2017-05-24 klockan 11:16 +0200 skrev Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk: 
> I'm surprised to see a swedish keyboard there :)
> 
> What is a PCM-12 ?
> 
> And I think that Datability VCP-1000 can do LAT to TCP/IP  translation.
> 
> /P

I think (the Viking kb) is a console for something like a computer
controll system for a theater's lighting rig.

At least that firm still makes that type of eq.


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Wed May 24 11:18:58 2017
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 09:18:58 -0700
Subject: Fixing flakey floppies
In-Reply-To: <4e115270-a1c2-9355-bc2b-da4f295dbd92@sydex.com>
References: <CANCZdfpDkRcrbs5pWZe=uKW9hLETBniAzRCzbX8YS_k+M1Nmww@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705231721590.15121@shell.lmi.net>
 <4e115270-a1c2-9355-bc2b-da4f295dbd92@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <55961239-F6A3-4F10-8925-C383111B1FFC@nf6x.net>

I have also encountered many drives in which the grease inside the hub spindle and/or hub clamp bearings had dried out. When I am cleaning up a new-to-me old floppy drives, I check all of the ball bearings in the spindle and hub clamp to make sure that they spin freely. If they drag noticeably, then I take them out and work some very light oil into them. So far, I have been able to get all of them spinning freely without needing to replace any of them.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From classiccmp at crash.com  Wed May 24 11:30:48 2017
From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 09:30:48 -0700
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <20170524091607.GT20746@Update.UU.SE>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>
 <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>
 <20170524091607.GT20746@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <ec9c0472-24c0-1bbd-9d8b-4245d5a91912@crash.com>

On 05/24/2017 02:16, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> 
> I'm surprised to see a swedish keyboard there :)

And I thought it was important to include that keyboard, because
somebody somewhere must be in a real jam if they need one...


> What is a PCM-12 ?

It appears to be a PDP-8 clone based on the Intersil 6100. I just now
found this link to a better-preserved example:
   http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/PCM12/

I've put photos of the unit I picked up here (more link variations from
Flickr):
    https://flic.kr/s/aHskX3uiy4


--S.


From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Wed May 24 11:41:02 2017
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 09:41:02 -0700
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <ec9c0472-24c0-1bbd-9d8b-4245d5a91912@crash.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>
 <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>
 <20170524091607.GT20746@Update.UU.SE>
 <ec9c0472-24c0-1bbd-9d8b-4245d5a91912@crash.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAhtnwGSu1NS9za9MKcL9CyGn+8bm1gxGQUNC4gwhr7h6Q@mail.gmail.com>

Heavens, why are the bit positions in descending order right to left in
that PCM-12?

I think I would quickly lose my mind.

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:30 AM, Steven M Jones via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 05/24/2017 02:16, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> >
> > I'm surprised to see a swedish keyboard there :)
>
> And I thought it was important to include that keyboard, because
> somebody somewhere must be in a real jam if they need one...
>
>
> > What is a PCM-12 ?
>
> It appears to be a PDP-8 clone based on the Intersil 6100. I just now
> found this link to a better-preserved example:
>    http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/PCM12/
>
> I've put photos of the unit I picked up here (more link variations from
> Flickr):
>     https://flic.kr/s/aHskX3uiy4
>
>
> --S.
>
>

From hachti at hachti.de  Wed May 24 11:46:01 2017
From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 18:46:01 +0200
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <00b301d2d463$8b5bdd70$a2139850$@ntlworld.com>
References: <BN3PR0601MB1025D0542B73B15C9DAEBB87BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <70c4bded-145d-bc0e-a493-f9c770e36e9e@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR0601MB102586522714DBDD9E793021BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <00b301d2d463$8b5bdd70$a2139850$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <eb400b72-8751-569f-8a98-ad2cad2b2575@hachti.de>



On 24.05.2017 09:58, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> It seems that you are suggesting people are worried about their collections
> being attractive to thieves. Well, that may be true for the lucky few, but
> for me it is simply about coordinates for identity theft and other kinds of
> criminality.
Paranoia...!

I am Philipp Hachtmann, located in Hannover, Germany. I own some old 
computers.
My telephone number can be found in the phone book, on my website and 
via yellow pages. The address as well. I want them to be known. To be 
called. To be visited. For business as well.
That does not imply that I'm a sloppy idiot who doesn't care. I decide 
what to share and what not. And keeping contact information secret is 
obviously useless in most cases. I even don't care about having my Email 
published. I have spamassasin.





From pcw at mesanet.com  Wed May 24 11:49:20 2017
From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 09:49:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <1495642181.29823.21.camel@agj.net>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>
 <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>
 <20170524091607.GT20746@Update.UU.SE> <1495642181.29823.21.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1705240943020.17463@freeby.mesanet.com>

A few more things

HP 1650A logic analyser
A couple Nova core memory boards
lots of random connectors/cables/SMT parts etc


The Dectalk is still here, for people that expressed an interest, I really 
have no time to ship it as we are moving at the same time trying to keep 
production/testing/shipping going so its pretty hectic, so if someone local 
could pick it up that would be great

Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics


From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Wed May 24 11:57:01 2017
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 09:57:01 -0700
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1705240943020.17463@freeby.mesanet.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>
 <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>
 <20170524091607.GT20746@Update.UU.SE> <1495642181.29823.21.camel@agj.net>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1705240943020.17463@freeby.mesanet.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAhMQOt2Wsrm-anLxDyFqrRS6r_KQ=NMyzuduYsUTa64gg@mail.gmail.com>

To whomever wants that DECTalk, I live in San Francisco and could pick it
up and ship it for you!

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:49 AM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> A few more things
>
> HP 1650A logic analyser
> A couple Nova core memory boards
> lots of random connectors/cables/SMT parts etc
>
>
> The Dectalk is still here, for people that expressed an interest, I really
> have no time to ship it as we are moving at the same time trying to keep
> production/testing/shipping going so its pretty hectic, so if someone local
> could pick it up that would be great
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
>
>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed May 24 12:19:44 2017
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 13:19:44 -0400
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <eb400b72-8751-569f-8a98-ad2cad2b2575@hachti.de>
References: <BN3PR0601MB1025D0542B73B15C9DAEBB87BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <70c4bded-145d-bc0e-a493-f9c770e36e9e@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR0601MB102586522714DBDD9E793021BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <00b301d2d463$8b5bdd70$a2139850$@ntlworld.com>
 <eb400b72-8751-569f-8a98-ad2cad2b2575@hachti.de>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufxsv68KrEhK68V-w5eUGtihMbkQgDf8zevniGN7VNiDw@mail.gmail.com>

Anyway.  I don't need to be added to any more pages that publicly list my
contact info that I do not have control over, thank you.  I need to see
before I approve something like that.

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 12:46 PM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 24.05.2017 09:58, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
>
>> It seems that you are suggesting people are worried about their
>> collections
>> being attractive to thieves. Well, that may be true for the lucky few, but
>> for me it is simply about coordinates for identity theft and other kinds
>> of
>> criminality.
>>
> Paranoia...!
>
> I am Philipp Hachtmann, located in Hannover, Germany. I own some old
> computers.
> My telephone number can be found in the phone book, on my website and via
> yellow pages. The address as well. I want them to be known. To be called.
> To be visited. For business as well.
> That does not imply that I'm a sloppy idiot who doesn't care. I decide
> what to share and what not. And keeping contact information secret is
> obviously useless in most cases. I even don't care about having my Email
> published. I have spamassasin.
>
>
>
>
>

From derschjo at gmail.com  Wed May 24 12:29:37 2017
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 10:29:37 -0700
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <ec9c0472-24c0-1bbd-9d8b-4245d5a91912@crash.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>
 <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>
 <20170524091607.GT20746@Update.UU.SE>
 <ec9c0472-24c0-1bbd-9d8b-4245d5a91912@crash.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLaRk2mXO77kdLwuEOPVzKzA5QwgJkSSaw6d1fYSsqP+pg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:30 AM, Steven M Jones via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 05/24/2017 02:16, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> >
> > I'm surprised to see a swedish keyboard there :)
>
> And I thought it was important to include that keyboard, because
> somebody somewhere must be in a real jam if they need one...
>
>
> > What is a PCM-12 ?
>
> It appears to be a PDP-8 clone based on the Intersil 6100. I just now
> found this link to a better-preserved example:
>    http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/PCM12/
>
> I've put photos of the unit I picked up here (more link variations from
> Flickr):
>     https://flic.kr/s/aHskX3uiy4
>
>
That looks like a cool little machine.  I'm kind of jealous :).  Hope you
can get it running again!

- Josh



>
> --S.
>
>

From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Wed May 24 13:09:04 2017
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 11:09:04 -0700
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAhMQOt2Wsrm-anLxDyFqrRS6r_KQ=NMyzuduYsUTa64gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>
 <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>
 <20170524091607.GT20746@Update.UU.SE> <1495642181.29823.21.camel@agj.net>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1705240943020.17463@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <CAJ2mpAhMQOt2Wsrm-anLxDyFqrRS6r_KQ=NMyzuduYsUTa64gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAjTYs3ihX+YUfjtWQq4Ga6hF8t1Ac5xFU4VeH93gWv0FQ@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, lots of interest in my proximity to the loot! I've contacted Peter
directly as he's been the point of contact on all this and I'll let him
point me to whomever he had selected the DECTalk to go to.

I drive a coupe so I only have so much space but once I get there I'll help
as much as I'm able to as many as I'm able!

=]

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Anders Nelson <anders.k.nelson at gmail.com>
wrote:

> To whomever wants that DECTalk, I live in San Francisco and could pick it
> up and ship it for you!
>
> --
> Anders Nelson
>
> +1 (517) 775-6129
>
> www.erogear.com
>
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:49 AM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> A few more things
>>
>> HP 1650A logic analyser
>> A couple Nova core memory boards
>> lots of random connectors/cables/SMT parts etc
>>
>>
>> The Dectalk is still here, for people that expressed an interest, I
>> really have no time to ship it as we are moving at the same time trying to
>> keep production/testing/shipping going so its pretty hectic, so if someone
>> local could pick it up that would be great
>>
>> Peter Wallace
>> Mesa Electronics
>>
>>
>

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed May 24 13:19:47 2017
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 12:19:47 -0600
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/24/2017 12:30 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 05/23/2017 05:31 PM, Andrew Harvey via cctalk wrote:
>> I don't think Indivudual Computers make the catweasle any more. They never
>> released a 64bit Windows driver for it.
>
> In point of advancing technology, one can purchase a STM32F4 development
> board with USB, UART, microSD, battery-backed RTC and oodles of timers
> and I/Os as well as a TFT interface for less than $12 shipped.  Almost
> all I/Os are 5V tolerant--and can be configured as open-drain if
> desired.  192KB of fast SRAM and a CPU running at about 168MHz.
> Perfectly capable of doing sampling of floppy output.
>
> Why would anyone want a Catweasel at this stage?  Technology has moved
> past that.
>
> --Chuck

But who wants to write the software?
I am building a 1977 ttl style computer because now I have spare time.
Finding vintage or similar devices is being a challenge as well fighting
modern OS to have even a C compiler and a TEXT editor.
Technology is not better, just cheaper.

I plan to use a low of LOW POWER 22V10's and undefined ALU logic
since I have several designs I want to play with. NOW is your last
chance to buy small quantities of things like 2901's and small TTL RAM's
and floppy disks.

Ben.





From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Wed May 24 13:39:56 2017
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 11:39:56 -0700
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAhMQOt2Wsrm-anLxDyFqrRS6r_KQ=NMyzuduYsUTa64gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>
 <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>
 <20170524091607.GT20746@Update.UU.SE> <1495642181.29823.21.camel@agj.net>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1705240943020.17463@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <CAJ2mpAhMQOt2Wsrm-anLxDyFqrRS6r_KQ=NMyzuduYsUTa64gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAhKRjGEq_rzc7txQseZCi+xk9iqRp-Jy933OA_-tk2BdA@mail.gmail.com>

Alright I have my bearings, God help me. I'll make a trip *today* at 1pm
PST, so 1.5 hours from now. I should be there for 1.5 hours or so.

Please send me your prioritized wish lists ASAP - I can't guarantee
anything but I'll do my best.

The Rules!:

   - DECTalk priority goes to the person who responded to my offer first.
   After I get shipping estimates (FedEx services only, please) should he/she
   decline I'll offer it to the next person to respond.

   - I drive a coupe so I can only fit so much - a 75lb chassis is unlikely
   to fit and I'm unlikely to be able to carry it!

   - I'll take the loot to my local FedEx office for packing *tomorrow*. If
   there are any specifics I'll instruct them to pack accordingly.

   - After I return with the list of items I hauled, please try to estimate
   the shipping costs so there aren't any surprises. I think the FedEx packing
   service will add ~$25 or so for medium-sized items.

Here we gooooo

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Anders Nelson <anders.k.nelson at gmail.com>
wrote:

> To whomever wants that DECTalk, I live in San Francisco and could pick it
> up and ship it for you!
>
> --
> Anders Nelson
>
> +1 (517) 775-6129
>
> www.erogear.com
>
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:49 AM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> A few more things
>>
>> HP 1650A logic analyser
>> A couple Nova core memory boards
>> lots of random connectors/cables/SMT parts etc
>>
>>
>> The Dectalk is still here, for people that expressed an interest, I
>> really have no time to ship it as we are moving at the same time trying to
>> keep production/testing/shipping going so its pretty hectic, so if someone
>> local could pick it up that would be great
>>
>> Peter Wallace
>> Mesa Electronics
>>
>>
>

From shadoooo at gmail.com  Wed May 24 14:32:21 2017
From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 21:32:21 +0200
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsVVbRy5bn8zLCA-wqYJPbrVMmj9H3v-SyVf1uR8AaKrcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsVVbRy5bn8zLCA-wqYJPbrVMmj9H3v-SyVf1uR8AaKrcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM4zSsWu+ZMmTSHXwDs_7Ts8WczqGsaEywVhACaftw7ZacTvLQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Anders,
thanks for your offer!
I wrote you an email, I would be glad to receive the DECtalk!

Andrea

From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk  Wed May 24 14:28:13 2017
From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 20:28:13 +0100
Subject: Any PDP11s for sale in the UK?
Message-ID: <87r2zejbqq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>

Hi everyone,

I am very interested in DEC stuff and I would love a PDP11 to play with
and have in my (small) collection. If anyone has one in the UK that they
would be interested in selling, please contact me off list. I'm
interested in both Q-bus and Unibus models.

Pretty unlikely but I thought I'd ask.

Thanks!


--
Aaron Jackson
PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham
http://aaronsplace.co.uk/

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May 24 14:35:42 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 12:35:42 -0700
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
 <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>

On 05/24/2017 11:19 AM, ben via cctalk wrote:

> But who wants to write the software?

Yes, just so.  I learned about that one decades ago.

> I am building a 1977 ttl style computer because now I have spare time.
> Finding vintage or similar devices is being a challenge as well fighting
> modern OS to have even a C compiler and a TEXT editor.
> Technology is not better, just cheaper

Modern technology is not only cheaper, but it's faster and uses less
power--and is usually more flexible.

I suspect that a PDP-11 in FPGA is quite a bit more reliable than the
real thing--and when you're done you have a nice abstract description of
the hardware in VHDL format.

And yes, I have a pile of old CMOS/ECL/TTL logic.

Remember when CMOS logic was new-- +15V Vdd and 1MHz top speed?

--Chuck

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Wed May 24 14:45:09 2017
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 21:45:09 +0200
Subject: Run/Stop switch from a Soviet S/370 clone
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHk0c2O_O2+LafHkXKoGLGftfA8+MS=yPtG_zks15G8gQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCFrNQNfOyQ3B+jz+MM4W0=3Exd6Mcm_FoOLXgBAfevo2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170524082516.GS20746@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAMTenCHk0c2O_O2+LafHkXKoGLGftfA8+MS=yPtG_zks15G8gQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170524194509.GV20746@Update.UU.SE>

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 03:12:05PM +0200, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 24 May 2017 at 10:25, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> > I think so. It would at least be nice to see a picture.
> >
> > If it's smallish I might even pay postage for it :D
> 
> Working on it. My flatmate's mother tidied it away and we thought it
> had been thrown out, but I have rediscovered it in its hiding place.
> 
> His father thinks it is from one of these:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES_EVM

Cool, how might it have ended up in the UK (I assume it is there)

/P


> 
> -- 
> Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
> Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
> UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed May 24 14:51:22 2017
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 15:51:22 -0400
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
 <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <8A3265BA-CEB8-4CAD-9BFC-321971104E82@comcast.net>


> On May 24, 2017, at 3:35 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> I suspect that a PDP-11 in FPGA is quite a bit more reliable than the
> real thing--and when you're done you have a nice abstract description of
> the hardware in VHDL format.

The trick is to get it close enough to correct, given the documentation lapses.  The PDP-11 is better off than many other machines (VAX and Alpha are better still) because it has an architecture manual, but even that is not 100% complete.

http://pdp2011.sytse.net/wordpress/pdp-11/ is a nice example of an FPGA PDP-11 (actually, the whole family -- conditional compile the model you want).  It seems pretty accurate; the fact that it runs RSTS is a good sign since that tends to be about as picky as any PDP-11 software you'll find.

> And yes, I have a pile of old CMOS/ECL/TTL logic.
> 
> Remember when CMOS logic was new-- +15V Vdd and 1MHz top speed?

No, but I remember CD4000 series logic: Vdd anywhere between 3 and 18 volts -- crank up the voltage if you want it to go faster ("less slow").

	paul


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Wed May 24 14:58:12 2017
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 21:58:12 +0200
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAhMQOt2Wsrm-anLxDyFqrRS6r_KQ=NMyzuduYsUTa64gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>
 <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>
 <20170524091607.GT20746@Update.UU.SE>
 <1495642181.29823.21.camel@agj.net>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1705240943020.17463@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <CAJ2mpAhMQOt2Wsrm-anLxDyFqrRS6r_KQ=NMyzuduYsUTa64gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170524195812.GW20746@Update.UU.SE>

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 09:57:01AM -0700, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> To whomever wants that DECTalk, I live in San Francisco and could pick it
> up and ship it for you!

I guess I'm late to the game. But put me on the queue.

/P

> 
> --
> Anders Nelson
> 
> +1 (517) 775-6129
> 
> www.erogear.com
> 
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:49 AM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> > A few more things
> >
> > HP 1650A logic analyser
> > A couple Nova core memory boards
> > lots of random connectors/cables/SMT parts etc
> >
> >
> > The Dectalk is still here, for people that expressed an interest, I really
> > have no time to ship it as we are moving at the same time trying to keep
> > production/testing/shipping going so its pretty hectic, so if someone local
> > could pick it up that would be great
> >
> > Peter Wallace
> > Mesa Electronics
> >
> >

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed May 24 14:58:30 2017
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 13:58:30 -0600
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
 <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <418d107f-aea5-1dda-27f7-9b7187ba7788@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/24/2017 1:35 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 05/24/2017 11:19 AM, ben via cctalk wrote:
>
>> But who wants to write the software?
>
> Yes, just so.  I learned about that one decades ago.
>
>> I am building a 1977 ttl style computer because now I have spare time.
>> Finding vintage or similar devices is being a challenge as well fighting
>> modern OS to have even a C compiler and a TEXT editor.
>> Technology is not better, just cheaper
>
> Modern technology is not only cheaper, but it's faster and uses less
> power--and is usually more flexible.
>
> I suspect that a PDP-11 in FPGA is quite a bit more reliable than the
> real thing--and when you're done you have a nice abstract description of
> the hardware in VHDL format.

I am not to sure about that.
If a schematic has a bug you can use a logic probe to find the error.
With typo in VHDL you have hard problem finding that single gate
error.

> And yes, I have a pile of old CMOS/ECL/TTL logic.
>
> Remember when CMOS logic was new-- +15V Vdd and 1MHz top speed?
>
This is Canada. RADIO SHACK was your only place to get anything.
99 cents for 7400.
Ben.

From fred at miser.misernet.net  Wed May 24 15:04:18 2017
From: fred at miser.misernet.net (Fred)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 16:04:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 35, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1495645200.49804.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1495645200.49804.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.1705241559540.6669@thrifty.misernet.net>

On Wed, 24 May 2017, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:

> Message: 51
> From: Anders Nelson <anders.k.nelson at gmail.com>
> To: "Peter C. Wallace" <pcw at mesanet.com>,  "General Discussion:
> 	On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
> To whomever wants that DECTalk, I live in San Francisco and could pick it
> up and ship it for you!

I believe there was a gentleman in Italy that wanted it.

If that falls through, I would like right of next refusal, shipping to 
Ohio.  :)

Fred

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed May 24 13:01:51 2017
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 19:01:51 +0100
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAhMQOt2Wsrm-anLxDyFqrRS6r_KQ=NMyzuduYsUTa64gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>
 <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>
 <20170524091607.GT20746@Update.UU.SE> <1495642181.29823.21.camel@agj.net>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1705240943020.17463@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <CAJ2mpAhMQOt2Wsrm-anLxDyFqrRS6r_KQ=NMyzuduYsUTa64gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170524180155.52B2D274E3@mx1.ezwind.net>

I want it, and happy to pay shipping to UK, decstation 5000/240 too. I found a shipping option that should work for me, can check later

Sent from my Windows 10 phone

From: Anders Nelson via cctalk
Sent: 24 May 2017 17:57
To: Peter C. Wallace; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA

To whomever wants that DECTalk, I live in San Francisco and could pick it
up and ship it for you!

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:49 AM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> A few more things
>
> HP 1650A logic analyser
> A couple Nova core memory boards
> lots of random connectors/cables/SMT parts etc
>
>
> The Dectalk is still here, for people that expressed an interest, I really
> have no time to ship it as we are moving at the same time trying to keep
> production/testing/shipping going so its pretty hectic, so if someone local
> could pick it up that would be great
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
>
>


From steve at oldcomputers.net  Wed May 24 13:21:43 2017
From: steve at oldcomputers.net (Oldcomputers)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 11:21:43 -0700
Subject: DIR of old computer collectors #3
Message-ID: <CE518C01-969F-47E0-95F6-264DADF4282E@oldcomputers.net>

Here's the page for now for your perusal - the temporary URL is subject to change. 

http://oldcomputers.net/some-collectors.html

There's a submit button in the upper right, but it just emails me.

The entry field in the upper left is kind of fun - enter a valid address or location, select it from the drop-down box, and it takes you there. It also gives GPS coordinates. 



From allisonportable at gmail.com  Wed May 24 14:49:01 2017
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 15:49:01 -0400
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
 <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <c153b62d-b829-309e-afb4-3e64bde3412d@gmail.com>



On 5/24/17 3:35 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 05/24/2017 11:19 AM, ben via cctalk wrote:
>
>> But who wants to write the software?
> Yes, just so.  I learned about that one decades ago.
>
>> I am building a 1977 ttl style computer because now I have spare time.
>> Finding vintage or similar devices is being a challenge as well fighting
>> modern OS to have even a C compiler and a TEXT editor.
>> Technology is not better, just cheaper
> Modern technology is not only cheaper, but it's faster and uses less
> power--and is usually more flexible.
Its why I keep all my old machines.  We have an understanding, that is I
understand them fully, hardware and software.

Oddly the assumption is 16 bit, PDP-11, why not DG Nova, TI990.
Could easily be 8 bit, 12bit, 18 bit as well.

> I suspect that a PDP-11 in FPGA is quite a bit more reliable than the
> real thing--and when you're done you have a nice abstract description of
> the hardware in VHDL format.
>
> And yes, I have a pile of old CMOS/ECL/TTL logic.
And Germanium transistors...

> Remember when CMOS logic was new-- +15V Vdd and 1MHz top speed?
>
> --Chuck
I remember when RTL was new and uRTL was a later improvement.


Allison

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed May 24 15:05:10 2017
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 21:05:10 +0100 (BST)
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAhKRjGEq_rzc7txQseZCi+xk9iqRp-Jy933OA_-tk2BdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>
 <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>
 <20170524091607.GT20746@Update.UU.SE> <1495642181.29823.21.camel@agj.net>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1705240943020.17463@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <CAJ2mpAhMQOt2Wsrm-anLxDyFqrRS6r_KQ=NMyzuduYsUTa64gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2mpAhKRjGEq_rzc7txQseZCi+xk9iqRp-Jy933OA_-tk2BdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <631461244.1153673.1495656310833.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe1.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net>

If FedEx is the only option then I think that may have to rule me out, shipping
to the UK would be prohibitive. I had found a good rate with Parcel Monkey, if
that is an option then I am still keen.

Thanks for your help!

Regards

Rob

> 
>     On 24 May 2017 at 19:39 Anders Nelson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
> 
> 
>     Alright I have my bearings, God help me. I'll make a trip *today* at 1pm
>     PST, so 1.5 hours from now. I should be there for 1.5 hours or so.
> 
>     Please send me your prioritized wish lists ASAP - I can't guarantee
>     anything but I'll do my best.
> 
>     The Rules!:
> 
>     - DECTalk priority goes to the person who responded to my offer first.
>     After I get shipping estimates (FedEx services only, please) should he/she
>     decline I'll offer it to the next person to respond.
> 
>     - I drive a coupe so I can only fit so much - a 75lb chassis is unlikely
>     to fit and I'm unlikely to be able to carry it!
> 
>     - I'll take the loot to my local FedEx office for packing *tomorrow*. If
>     there are any specifics I'll instruct them to pack accordingly.
> 
>     - After I return with the list of items I hauled, please try to estimate
>     the shipping costs so there aren't any surprises. I think the FedEx
> packing
>     service will add ~$25 or so for medium-sized items.
> 
>     Here we gooooo
> 
>     --
>     Anders Nelson
> 
>     +1 (517) 775-6129
> 
>     www.erogear.com
> 
>     On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Anders Nelson <anders.k.nelson at gmail.com>
>     wrote:
> 
>     > To whomever wants that DECTalk, I live in San Francisco and could pick
>     > it
>     > up and ship it for you!
>     >
>     > --
>     > Anders Nelson
>     >
>     > +1 (517) 775-6129
>     >
>     > www.erogear.com
>     >
>     > On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:49 AM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk <
>     > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>     >
>     >> A few more things
>     >>
>     >> HP 1650A logic analyser
>     >> A couple Nova core memory boards
>     >> lots of random connectors/cables/SMT parts etc
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> The Dectalk is still here, for people that expressed an interest, I
>     >> really have no time to ship it as we are moving at the same time trying
>     >> to
>     >> keep production/testing/shipping going so its pretty hectic, so if
>     >> someone
>     >> local could pick it up that would be great
>     >>
>     >> Peter Wallace
>     >> Mesa Electronics
>     >>
>     >>
>     >
> 

From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed May 24 16:28:19 2017
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 14:28:19 -0700
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <418d107f-aea5-1dda-27f7-9b7187ba7788@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
 <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
 <418d107f-aea5-1dda-27f7-9b7187ba7788@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <bf3e4411-fadd-213e-c76f-36bb439f3234@bitsavers.org>



On 5/24/17 12:58 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:

> With typo in VHDL you have hard problem finding that single gate
> error.

The world has been debugging 100,000+ gate systems with simulations for
a few decades now.

Once you've built up a set of test vectors, it actually becomes really
obvious where a single gate error is through simulation.



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed May 24 17:00:01 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 15:00:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DIY Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
 <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705241415580.21062@shell.lmi.net>

>> But who wants to write the software?
On Wed, 24 May 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Yes, just so.  I learned about that one decades ago.

It just needs to be open source software, open source hardware, also 
available assembled, optionally bundled with or mounted in floppy drives 
for 3.5" 5.25", 8".
It should sell for less than $20 (with 3.5" drive, slightly higher with 
8", even higher with multi-drive 3",3.25",3.5",5.25",8" in a single 
cabinet)
Support should be live 24/7.

The software needs to function under DOS, Windoze, Linux, Mac, Android.
The software needs to provide raw flux transitions, along with 
firmware to be compatible and work with CatWeasel, Kryoflux, Option Board 
software.
It should have imaging software, both flux transition and IMD 
compatability.
It needs to provide disk, track, sector data.
It needs to include complete emulation of WD-179x, and NEC-765 
controllers.  The NEC emulation should provide optional going blind after 
index, as well as multiple variations of how it handles 128 byte sectore.
WD-179x support should also add WD-1771 address mark support (TRS80)
It should have windows drivers that permit it to be the floppy system.


It should be able to duplicate ANY disk, including all copy-protection 
schemes. (supply a paper-clip for making scratch for pro-lock)

It should have "Installable File System" support sufficient to be able to 
mount 2500 different floppy disk formats.
Sufficient buffer to read data from disk in one format, reformat the disk 
in another format, and write the data back to it.
Its software should identify and report the disk format of the disk in the 
drive.

Optional scan and repair of file-system and sector errors, including 
"refresh format" (read data from track, reformat track, write data back 
out)
Multi-language spell-chequer?
Alignment exerciser, plus software for DDD in ROM.

Built-in SD slot for storing content of disks.

support for disk changer and high speed copying


Interface should include USB (micro-USB for Android), RS232, 
Centronics-style parallel, 20-mA, . . .

Should it include emulation and drive support for ST412/506? ESDI? SCSI?

But, we're probably not including some essential capability.
Whatever features it has, SOMEBODY will say that it is INSANE to have 
bothered with some of those features, but not to have included some other 
feature that they want.

From cctalk at ibm51xx.net  Wed May 24 17:02:16 2017
From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 15:02:16 -0700
Subject: DIY Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705241415580.21062@shell.lmi.net>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
 <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705241415580.21062@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <007001d2d4d9$68887210$39995630$@net>

> It just needs to be open source software, open source hardware, also
> available assembled, optionally bundled with or mounted in floppy
> drives for 3.5" 5.25", 8".
> It should sell for less than $20 (with 3.5" drive, slightly higher with
> 8", even higher with multi-drive 3",3.25",3.5",5.25",8" in a single
> cabinet)
> Support should be live 24/7.

Fred,

You had me at 24/7. Put me down for two!

;)

-Ali


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed May 24 17:16:54 2017
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 16:16:54 -0600
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <bf3e4411-fadd-213e-c76f-36bb439f3234@bitsavers.org>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
 <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
 <418d107f-aea5-1dda-27f7-9b7187ba7788@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <bf3e4411-fadd-213e-c76f-36bb439f3234@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <59758e9c-5e90-9c39-2282-980328aad06c@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/24/2017 3:28 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>
>
> On 5/24/17 12:58 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
>
>> With typo in VHDL you have hard problem finding that single gate
>> error.
>
> The world has been debugging 100,000+ gate systems with simulations for
> a few decades now.
>
> Once you've built up a set of test vectors, it actually becomes really
> obvious where a single gate error is through simulation.
>

Well I am NOT the world... GOD perhaps.
I know that I make typos and mistakes. More KISS with the design I
am working on all the better. The first version will have NO IRQ's
just to keep the random logic design simple. And just for a change
it will be a 9 bit cpu, with a mini- front panel.
Still fits in 1970's era with logic dropped in price, but memory
still expensive.
Ben.







From go at ao-cs.com  Wed May 24 17:17:34 2017
From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 15:17:34 -0700
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBufxsv68KrEhK68V-w5eUGtihMbkQgDf8zevniGN7VNiDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BN3PR0601MB1025D0542B73B15C9DAEBB87BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <70c4bded-145d-bc0e-a493-f9c770e36e9e@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR0601MB102586522714DBDD9E793021BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <00b301d2d463$8b5bdd70$a2139850$@ntlworld.com>
 <eb400b72-8751-569f-8a98-ad2cad2b2575@hachti.de>
 <CABGJBufxsv68KrEhK68V-w5eUGtihMbkQgDf8zevniGN7VNiDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e8be1984-ff10-9d23-b940-6d158909027b@ao-cs.com>

What is the age requirement to be eligible for inclusion in the old 
'computer collectors' list? :-)

-Gary


From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Wed May 24 17:19:49 2017
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 15:19:49 -0700
Subject: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAhKRjGEq_rzc7txQseZCi+xk9iqRp-Jy933OA_-tk2BdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bd2868f4-07dc-f629-d695-59f22c44d082@crash.com>
 <d0b95f55-60b5-c02e-a0f7-4ea9e6348e82@jwsss.com>
 <372a9da9-6552-25b8-410d-6ca564b05749@crash.com>
 <20170524091607.GT20746@Update.UU.SE> <1495642181.29823.21.camel@agj.net>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1705240943020.17463@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <CAJ2mpAhMQOt2Wsrm-anLxDyFqrRS6r_KQ=NMyzuduYsUTa64gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2mpAhKRjGEq_rzc7txQseZCi+xk9iqRp-Jy933OA_-tk2BdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAg_K4OV5Va-BxbGY+zAd8+Tz+os1zB6pA=D_D+D18StXg@mail.gmail.com>

I have news,

On my way over, my engine bay turned into a hot tub party of steam courtesy
of coolant leaking all over the block. The shop was on the way so it's
being repaired? now but I wasn't able to get to Mesa. =[ I might try
tomorrow...

How obnoxious, I hate to get people's hopes up and not deliver.

=]

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On May 24, 2017 11:39 AM, "Anders Nelson" <anders.k.nelson at gmail.com> wrote:

Alright I have my bearings, God help me. I'll make a trip *today* at 1pm
PST, so 1.5 hours from now. I should be there for 1.5 hours or so.

Please send me your prioritized wish lists ASAP - I can't guarantee
anything but I'll do my best.

The Rules!:

   - DECTalk priority goes to the person who responded to my offer first.
   After I get shipping estimates (FedEx services only, please) should he/she
   decline I'll offer it to the next person to respond.

   - I drive a coupe so I can only fit so much - a 75lb chassis is unlikely
   to fit and I'm unlikely to be able to carry it!

   - I'll take the loot to my local FedEx office for packing *tomorrow*. If
   there are any specifics I'll instruct them to pack accordingly.

   - After I return with the list of items I hauled, please try to estimate
   the shipping costs so there aren't any surprises. I think the FedEx packing
   service will add ~$25 or so for medium-sized items.

Here we gooooo

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Anders Nelson <anders.k.nelson at gmail.com>
wrote:

> To whomever wants that DECTalk, I live in San Francisco and could pick it
> up and ship it for you!
>
> --
> Anders Nelson
>
> +1 (517) 775-6129
>
> www.erogear.com
>
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:49 AM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> A few more things
>>
>> HP 1650A logic analyser
>> A couple Nova core memory boards
>> lots of random connectors/cables/SMT parts etc
>>
>>
>> The Dectalk is still here, for people that expressed an interest, I
>> really have no time to ship it as we are moving at the same time trying to
>> keep production/testing/shipping going so its pretty hectic, so if someone
>> local could pick it up that would be great
>>
>> Peter Wallace
>> Mesa Electronics
>>
>>
>

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed May 24 17:22:14 2017
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 16:22:14 -0600
Subject: DIY Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705241415580.21062@shell.lmi.net>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
 <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705241415580.21062@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <cb9534d8-268e-0af3-6857-30652d25c1df@jetnet.ab.ca>


> But, we're probably not including some essential capability.
> Whatever features it has, SOMEBODY will say that it is INSANE to have
> bothered with some of those features, but not to have included some
> other feature that they want.
>
Instructions in Chinese,Japanese,and  Basic English in blue on a tiny sheet
of rice paper.



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed May 24 17:24:33 2017
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 16:24:33 -0600
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <e8be1984-ff10-9d23-b940-6d158909027b@ao-cs.com>
References: <BN3PR0601MB1025D0542B73B15C9DAEBB87BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <70c4bded-145d-bc0e-a493-f9c770e36e9e@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR0601MB102586522714DBDD9E793021BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <00b301d2d463$8b5bdd70$a2139850$@ntlworld.com>
 <eb400b72-8751-569f-8a98-ad2cad2b2575@hachti.de>
 <CABGJBufxsv68KrEhK68V-w5eUGtihMbkQgDf8zevniGN7VNiDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e8be1984-ff10-9d23-b940-6d158909027b@ao-cs.com>
Message-ID: <da541c04-eb60-570c-c103-52cbe4476f3f@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/24/2017 4:17 PM, Gary Oliver via cctalk wrote:
> What is the age requirement to be eligible for inclusion in the old
> 'computer collectors' list? :-)

You need glasses to read this message.

> -Gary
>



From jecel at merlintec.com  Wed May 24 17:29:59 2017
From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 19:29:59 -0300 
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <bf3e4411-fadd-213e-c76f-36bb439f3234@bitsavers.org>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
 <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
 <418d107f-aea5-1dda-27f7-9b7187ba7788@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <bf3e4411-fadd-213e-c76f-36bb439f3234@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <20170524223002.E0E019C080E@proxy.email-ssl.com.br>

Al Kossow wrote on: Wed, 24 May 2017 14:28:19 -0700
> On 5/24/17 12:58 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
> 
> > With typo in VHDL you have hard problem finding that single gate
> > error.
> 
> The world has been debugging 100,000+ gate systems with simulations for
> a few decades now.
> 
> Once you've built up a set of test vectors, it actually becomes really
> obvious where a single gate error is through simulation.

In addition, a tool like the Altera Signal probe allows you to bring any
signal you want to a pin you select so you can use an oscilloscope or
logic analizer to look at it if that is how you are more comfortable
debugging hardware. Another option is to include a whole logic analyzer
inside your design, like the Xilinx ChipScope or Altera SignalTap II.
That talks to software running on your PC and has all the functionality
of a real logic analyzer.

I have not used these tools myself but instead did the equivalent the
hard way: I patched the VHDL code to bring the signal I wanted to look
at to the pin I was probing with my oscilloscope. That was a bit awkward
when the signal was several levels down in the design.

My point is that though Al is right that it is better to debug with a
simulator, those of us who prefer to look at the real thing lose nothing
with FPGAs. In fact, given how hard it can be to attatch 60 little
probes to pins which are very close together we actually gain something.

By the way, in my scheme I actually had a case where it was hard to
debug because the FPGA worked one way when I touched it with the
oscilloscope probe and did something different when I didn't.

-- Jecel

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed May 24 17:30:08 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 15:30:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <e8be1984-ff10-9d23-b940-6d158909027b@ao-cs.com>
References: <BN3PR0601MB1025D0542B73B15C9DAEBB87BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <70c4bded-145d-bc0e-a493-f9c770e36e9e@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR0601MB102586522714DBDD9E793021BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <00b301d2d463$8b5bdd70$a2139850$@ntlworld.com>
 <eb400b72-8751-569f-8a98-ad2cad2b2575@hachti.de>
 <CABGJBufxsv68KrEhK68V-w5eUGtihMbkQgDf8zevniGN7VNiDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e8be1984-ff10-9d23-b940-6d158909027b@ao-cs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705241527340.21062@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 24 May 2017, Gary Oliver via cctalk wrote:
> What is the age requirement to be eligible for inclusion in the old 'computer 
> collectors' list? :-)

old enough that you should know better?


The computers do not need to be older than the people on the list,
so long as they will get off of my lawn.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed May 24 17:52:55 2017
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 15:52:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DIY Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <cb9534d8-268e-0af3-6857-30652d25c1df@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
 <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705241415580.21062@shell.lmi.net>
 <cb9534d8-268e-0af3-6857-30652d25c1df@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705241530370.21062@shell.lmi.net>

>> But, we're probably not including some essential capability.
>> Whatever features it has, SOMEBODY will say that it is INSANE to have
>> bothered with some of those features, but not to have included some
>> other feature that they want.

On Wed, 24 May 2017, ben via cctalk wrote:
> Instructions in Chinese,Japanese,and  Basic English in blue on a tiny sheet
> of rice paper.

. . . and leave off the other languages?
You don't dare include Amharic if you don't have Oromo, etc.

SO, no written instructions.   All instructions will be silent, 
uncaptioned videos.
(available on 1/2" Sony CV series reel to reel B&W videotape,
convertable to 1" Ampex type C by special order)
I wonder if the market is still flooded with BBC "Doctor Who" 2" 
videotapes for erasing and re-use?

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed May 24 18:03:10 2017
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 01:03:10 +0200
Subject: Run/Stop switch from a Soviet S/370 clone
In-Reply-To: <20170524194509.GV20746@Update.UU.SE>
References: <CAMTenCFrNQNfOyQ3B+jz+MM4W0=3Exd6Mcm_FoOLXgBAfevo2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170524082516.GS20746@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAMTenCHk0c2O_O2+LafHkXKoGLGftfA8+MS=yPtG_zks15G8gQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170524194509.GV20746@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEvLJM3kY0TGhC3HXCB-0w8zQ_dMHyBHbfmKRPoznf_Qg@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 May 2017 at 21:45, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> Cool, how might it have ended up in the UK (I assume it is there)


Er, no. It, like me, is in Brno in the Czech Republic.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

From rlloken at telus.net  Wed May 24 18:51:28 2017
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 17:51:28 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Alphaserver 4100 - Give my Monster Life!!!!
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1705241745090.18149@discord.bogons>

My monster lives!

After being brought home in a dozen parts, cleaned with Windex and an air
compressor, and reassembled, my Alphaserver 4100 is once again up and
running OpenVMS.  There were a couple minor snags while I went up to the
attic to find a CPU fan, move a ton of stuff to find an electrical outlet,
and reseated the memory modules but all that is behind me now.

It is using lots of electricity and making lots of noise while displaying
a Motif session in a 19" liquid crystal monitor without a stand...

What could be better than this?

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV         	  : "...underneath those tuques we wear,
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada       : our heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **         :    - Arthur Black

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Wed May 24 19:23:18 2017
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 17:23:18 -0700
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1705240820460.12242@pinhead.binfone.com>
References: <BN3PR0601MB1025D0542B73B15C9DAEBB87BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <70c4bded-145d-bc0e-a493-f9c770e36e9e@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR0601MB102586522714DBDD9E793021BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1705240820460.12242@pinhead.binfone.com>
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWDDknMX18AGM1RDCu19qK6w+g73ht=AR+jYiMjmD37UgQ@mail.gmail.com>

JP wrote:
>Randy, with all due respect, have you seen how much an Apple 1 or a
Lisa... or even their _drives_ go for lately?
>Symbolics machines? Crays? One-offs or limited-run machines?

While an honor to see my old favorite- the Symbolics- in a line with Cray
and Apple 1, they ain't THAT expensive. Just a couple guys this year got
into it on a few auctions. I've seen 11/40s go for far more. :)

On that note- I'd also *love* to see someone try and make it out of my
house with one. Enjoy your hernia.

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 6:23 AM, JP Hindin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 24 May 2017, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> Anybody that is paranoid about telling their location and the computer
>> dinosaurs running in their basement needs a head alignment.
>>
>> Another case of some guy over-estimating the worth of the junk we hold on
>> to.  It is zero, of value to only us that play with it.
>>
>> And our numbers are diminishing every day.
>>
>
> Randy, with all due respect, have you seen how much an Apple 1 or a
> Lisa... or even their _drives_ go for lately? Symbolics machines? Crays?
> One-offs or limited-run machines?
>
> While I don't disagree that a lot of us (without question myself included)
> vastly overrate their collection of bits and pieces, that is not to say
> that _some_ of them can be worth staggering amounts of money to the right
> people.
>
> And people have broken into places for dollars worth of easily portable
> things - let alone tens of thousands+ worth.
>
> Caution is not undue or unwise.
>
>  - JP
>
>
> ________________________________
>> From: jim stephens <jwsmail at jwsss.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 11:26 PM
>> To: Randy Dawson; steven stengel
>> Subject: Fwd: Re: Directory of old computer collectors
>>
>>
>> Randy,
>> I'm sort of running interference for STeve on the list.  Since his email
>> is cc'd here and he's a subscriber I suspect has seen this.
>>
>> the tosteve at yahoo.com<mailto:tosteve at yahoo.com> is his email for these
>> computer matters.
>>
>> People are getting a bit torqued out over non issues, I think, thanks for
>> chiming in.  Hopefully we can all help each others collecting efforts with
>> a bit of visibility.
>>
>> thanks
>> jim
>>
>>
>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>> Subject:        Re: Directory of old computer collectors
>> Date:   Wed, 24 May 2017 05:19:41 +0000
>> From:   Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com><mailto:rdawson16 at hotmail.com
>> >
>> To:     jim stephens <jwsmail at jwsss.com><mailto:jwsmail at jwsss.com>,
>> steven stengel <tosteve at yahoo.com><mailto:tosteve at yahoo.com>, General
>> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org><mailto:
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>>
>> add me to your list.
>>
>>
>> I am in Thousand Oaks, CA (Los Angeles area).
>>
>>
>> I have a Tektronix 4051 vector graphics computer running, just BASIC
>> games at the moment. I have  a Compaq Model 1 with the PC-IDE flash setup,
>> running Autocad, Versacad, Dr. Halo, Turbo-C, MS-Fortran.
>>
>>
>> I am in conversation with some Tek guys to add a modern RAM flash drive
>> to the 4051 to replace the DC300 tape.  We are about to build some PCBs for
>> it, let me know if you have a 4051.
>>
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org><mailto:cctalk-bounces at classi
>> ccmp.org> on behalf of steven stengel via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> ><mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:05 PM
>> To: jim stephens; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> Subject: Re: Directory of old computer collectors
>>
>> I will post anything you want me to, just tell me.
>> email is not necessary, a link or website will do fine as well.The map is
>> intended to be a method to see who's where for assistance, trading,
>> meet-ups, etc.There's hundreds of people here, but few know where each
>> other live, I suppose.
>>
>>
>>
>>      From: jim stephens via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org><mailto:
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: Directory of old computer collectors
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/22/2017 11:06 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:29:22 -0400
>>> william degnan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org><mailto:
>>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> can you send a link to the people who are on the list so they can see
>>>> their listing?  I personally don't mind as long as any record that
>>>> includes me personally does not include my email address or phone
>>>> number.    I much prefer to send people to my web page contact form.
>>>>
>>> Folks who are on the list should have the opportunity to approve what
>>> will and will not be posted about them. That's not only a legal
>>> requirement in many States, but also common courtesy.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Lyle
>>>
>> You do get that this isn't cctalk, but one that people had already sent
>> contact info for.  I sent him revised publishable contact info for the
>> list.  I realize he probably made the request w/o 40 pages of consent
>> forms to read, but he seems to just be asking to allow him to publish
>> from that list, and a note here for anyone who didn't see it in their
>> email, since the respondents came from here.
>>
>> thanks
>> jim
>>
>> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:19 PM, steven stengel via cctalk <
>>>> cctalk at classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>> In the past, I requested the email address and home city of old
>>>>> computer collectors to a compile a list for my own purposes.
>>>>> Over 120 people had responded, which is great! Now I want to make
>>>>> this list PUBLIC with a Google map showing everyones location,
>>>>> email, and collecting preferences.
>>>>> Since I don't have anyone's explicit permission to publish their
>>>>> information, I am now asking.
>>>>> Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on
>>>>> the public webpage.
>>>>> Thanks-
>>>>> Steven Stengelhttp://oldcomputers.net/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>


-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com

From radioengr at gmail.com  Wed May 24 19:26:31 2017
From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 17:26:31 -0700
Subject: Key for Intel MDS-800
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705102116150.22324@shell.lmi.net>
References: <5913cc35.79239d0a.dad79.10e7@mx.google.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705102116150.22324@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <326f2e4d-65fb-a86f-243e-5a586ba04b3a@gmail.com>

On 5/10/2017 9:17 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, 10 May 2017, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote:
>> Is this a thing? There's an archive of vintage physical computer keys?
>> This would be very cool. Heck one could potentially even 3d print a
>> key for short term usage.
>
> Jay West was starting to collect some of that info.
> There was a thread last year, first half of 2016:
> Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
>

After some searching -

The Intel MDS-800 key is a standard CH751.

The CH751 is a very common key - and is available on EBAY and Amazon.

Rob.



From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Wed May 24 19:39:03 2017
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 17:39:03 -0700
Subject: Directory of old computer collectors
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWDDknMX18AGM1RDCu19qK6w+g73ht=AR+jYiMjmD37UgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BN3PR0601MB1025D0542B73B15C9DAEBB87BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <70c4bded-145d-bc0e-a493-f9c770e36e9e@jwsss.com>
 <BN3PR0601MB102586522714DBDD9E793021BAFE0@BN3PR0601MB1025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1705240820460.12242@pinhead.binfone.com>
 <CAHQ+QWDDknMX18AGM1RDCu19qK6w+g73ht=AR+jYiMjmD37UgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <239e85dd-70d3-b492-bbbf-809361f4ab1f@jwsss.com>



On 5/24/2017 5:23 PM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote:
> JP wrote:
>> Randy, with all due respect, have you seen how much an Apple 1 or a
> Lisa... or even their_drives_  go for lately?
Yes and I would never keep such in a home w/o proper security. Someone 
with $1m assets should not have them were they can be casually accessed 
or stolen.

you are talking about a couple of people out of the thousands who have 
piles of what is steel breakage and a bit of copper scrap to thieves.  
And I don't know any of them that want such.

As Ian says, lots of weight, probably $5 copper for one Symbolics box.

On the other hand a bolt cutter and less muscle, they can chop the A/C 
condenser lines and get $100.  no brains, no shopping.

happend to me.  Just with I'd had cyanide or ammonia gas to release when 
the pricks stole mine.

The Revision 2 implementation that I put in to replace the means it is 
secured now will take a long time, or a small bobcat to pull it out now.

thanks
jim


From rlloken at telus.net  Wed May 24 20:09:12 2017
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 19:09:12 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Alphaserver 4100 - Give my Monster Life!!!!
In-Reply-To: DgKTdckdHOOK6DgKVdX7Pz
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1705241745090.18149@discord.bogons>
 DgKTdckdHOOK6DgKVdX7Pz
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1705241904040.18149@discord.bogons>

On Wed, 24 May 2017, Pete Lancashire wrote:

> Displaying that Motif session on a 'real' CRT that takes 1/3 of your desk,
> weights 50+ lbs and takes around 150W.

I had a lovely 21" trinitron CRT here that I sent to the dump last year,
it had sat idle in the storage room for ten years and I needed the space.
That is shameful.

On the other hand, I feel no guilt about sending a few white box pentiums
to the dump along with a couple ghetto blasters.  No jury would ever
convict me!

Oh!  Wait!  I have a VAXstation 3100 and its associated 50lb monochrome
CRT still in the storage room.  I will have to dig it out some time...

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV         	  : "...underneath those tuques we wear,
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada       : our heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **         :    - Arthur Black

From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed May 24 20:39:10 2017
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 18:39:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Alphaserver 4100 - Give my Monster Life!!!!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1705241904040.18149@discord.bogons> from Richard
 Loken via cctalk at "May 24, 17 07:09:12 pm"
Message-ID: <201705250139.v4P1dA9I4784132@floodgap.com>

> > Displaying that Motif session on a 'real' CRT that takes 1/3 of your desk,
> > weights 50+ lbs and takes around 150W.
> 
> I had a lovely 21" trinitron CRT here that I sent to the dump last year,
> it had sat idle in the storage room for ten years and I needed the space.
> That is shameful.

My HP 9000/350 has its big tank of a monitor. It's almost part of the
identity of the machine, perched on top of the system rack and secured by
bungie cords.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- What happens when you get scared half-to-death twice? ----------------------

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May 24 23:18:35 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 21:18:35 -0700
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <c153b62d-b829-309e-afb4-3e64bde3412d@gmail.com>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
 <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
 <c153b62d-b829-309e-afb4-3e64bde3412d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8ef9803d-c82f-4e95-bed1-8b0fe8aae047@sydex.com>

On 05/24/2017 12:49 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:

> I remember when RTL was new and uRTL was a later improvement.

Flatpack and TO-100.  I probably still have a few mW RTL packages
around.  DIPs came later.

--Chuck


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May 24 23:19:11 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 21:19:11 -0700
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <c153b62d-b829-309e-afb4-3e64bde3412d@gmail.com>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
 <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
 <c153b62d-b829-309e-afb4-3e64bde3412d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3718fa32-fa8b-0589-b79e-c18e2d276d00@sydex.com>

On 05/24/2017 12:49 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:

> I remember when RTL was new and uRTL was a later improvement.

Flatpack and TO-100.  I probably still have a few mW RTL packages
around.  DIPs came later.

--Chuck


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May 24 23:27:37 2017
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 21:27:37 -0700
Subject: Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <bf3e4411-fadd-213e-c76f-36bb439f3234@bitsavers.org>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
 <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
 <418d107f-aea5-1dda-27f7-9b7187ba7788@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <bf3e4411-fadd-213e-c76f-36bb439f3234@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <6e9cd843-729a-bb30-601e-07d23aef72d5@sydex.com>

On 05/24/2017 02:28 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

> Once you've built up a set of test vectors, it actually becomes really
> obvious where a single gate error is through simulation.


Does anyone collect the old Zycad hardware emulators?  They were the
(very expensive) cat's whiskers at one time.

--Chuck

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu May 25 00:22:18 2017
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 23:22:18 -0600
Subject: DIY Kryoflux or Catweasle
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705241530370.21062@shell.lmi.net>
References: <dd8efe56-48fe-456f-5497-2bcf8128039f@jwsss.com>
 <CAGjKRUabzB4ac_1nFZHihOCzfJf=2HRD4wUsYL9hmr9SaDnwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00492760-f84a-869c-b18b-752e265fe1f8@sydex.com>
 <08432282-e446-81d3-c508-cc19a6aa78c3@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <b4dff651-e66a-3572-0d06-e4d3268d32ca@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705241415580.21062@shell.lmi.net>
 <cb9534d8-268e-0af3-6857-30652d25c1df@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1705241530370.21062@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <570ad2eb-702d-8591-9548-2cf5eac11d29@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/24/2017 4:52 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> But, we're probably not including some essential capability.
>>> Whatever features it has, SOMEBODY will say that it is INSANE to have
>>> bothered with some of those features, but not to have included some
>>> other feature that they want.
>
> On Wed, 24 May 2017, ben via cctalk wrote:
>> Instructions in Chinese,Japanese,and  Basic English in blue on a tiny
>> sheet
>> of rice paper.
>
> . . . and leave off the other languages?
> You don't dare include Amharic if you don't have Oromo, etc.
>
> SO, no written instructions.   All instructions will be silent,
> uncaptioned videos.
> (available on 1/2" Sony CV series reel to reel B&W videotape,
> convertable to 1" Ampex type C by special order)
> I wonder if the market is still flooded with BBC "Doctor Who" 2"
> videotapes for erasing and re-use?
>

Well if you have any BBC DR WHO tapes, there are several gaps
in the surviving recordings that need filling in.
Ben.



From pete at petelancashire.com  Wed May 24 19:08:36 2017
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 17:08:36 -0700
Subject: Alphaserver 4100 - Give my Monster Life!!!!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1705241745090.18149@discord.bogons>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1705241745090.18149@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u9mys6Td59Kw7-D9AzHbDVWBBcFj_NWeWaGWhtGsiHNiA@mail.gmail.com>

Displaying that Motif session on a 'real' CRT that takes 1/3 of your desk,
weights 50+ lbs and takes around 150W.

-pete ...

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 4:51 PM, Richard Loken via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> My monster lives!
>
> After being brought home in a dozen parts, cleaned with Windex and an air
> compressor, and reassembled, my Alphaserver 4100 is once again up and
> running OpenVMS.  There were a couple minor snags while I went up to the
> attic to find a CPU fan, move a ton of stuff to find an electrical outlet,
> and reseated the memory modules but all that is behind me now.
>
> It is using lots of electricity and making lots of noise while displaying
> a Motif session in a 19" liquid